From pawan.durani at gmail.com Mon Jun 1 10:03:30 2009 From: pawan.durani at gmail.com (Pawan Durani) Date: Mon, 1 Jun 2009 10:03:30 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Massacres - 4 Message-ID: <6b79f1a70905312133r4a500eccld464b234c8ff868f@mail.gmail.com> Khirm, Sirhama - 1948 When a Dacoity looked like ‘Raiders’ attack By Kuldeep Raina Sirhama and Khirm are the two picturesque villages located on Bijbehara-Pahalgam road. Khirm is the last Kashmiri village, which opens above into Ashtadhar-Wularhama forests. While Khirm is one and a half km away from Sirhama, the latter is close to the main road and nine kms from the tehsil headquarters of Bijbehara. Sirhama, derived from Suryahama has remained a great centre of Sun-Worship in by-gone times and also finds mention in the Amreshvar Mahatmya. In 1948 there were eighteen Pandit families-all Bhats, who lived in Sirhama. There were just six Pandit families, Rainas and Bhats in Khirm. It was the first day of the moon-lit fortnight of Savan and the other day villagers were going to celebrate Idd. The impact of the raiders’ attack was still fresh in the minds of people, as raiders had been pushed across just three months back. Attack: In the evening, villagers had come out of their houses to look for the moon. A few Pandits had also joined them. Moon had been sighted, but suddenly the tranquility was disturbed by the shouts of Jia Lal, son of Thokur Bhat. He was trying to warn the villagers that the raiders had come. The villagers thought he was making fool of them. Soon the sound of a firing shot was also head. It was around 8 PM and darkness was gradually setting in. The raiders’ had the reputation of looting and killing Kashmiri Pandits. When the first news of “raiders” reached Sirhama, Gh. Qadir Dar had come out with a lamp in his hand. He was going to invite the “raiders” to his home for dinner so as to give time to Pandits to flee. As the light of the lamp made the movement of “raiders” visible, the intruders got annoyed and fired at Gh Qadir. A bullet hit him in the abdomen and he collapsed down. The family of late Sat Lal Bhat had a marriage function to be solemnized the following month. They had stocked everything for this purpose. After the firing shot was heard, the family shifted the women-folk to the house of a neighbour Ghani Nengroo. Sham Lal Bhat, son of late Sat Lal Bhat hid himself among the bhang bushes. His two brothers, Gopi Nath and Shamboo Nath accompanied other Pandits, who went to inform police. Mirza Afzal Beg, the Revenue Minister was also camping in Anantnag. After half an hour, the family managed to retrieve 4-5 boxes, containing valuables and hid these in the bushes. Massacre: Soon three more shots were heard. Sat Bhat, Raghav Bhat and Tarachand were closely related. Their houses formed sort of a single complex. These families were taking dinner. They used to keep bored-firearms to protect maize from bears. ‘Raiders’, numbering 10-15 in number forced their way into their houses. They called Sat Bhat, Tarachand and Raghav Bhat down and lined them up. Sat Bhat was shot in the temple. He died on spot. Raghav Bhat was injured in the thigh. Tarachand was lucky and received a mere kissing injury. ‘Raiders’ went to search all the Pandit houses in the locality. It took them three hours. Gold and double blankets (Jora Pachi) were special attractions for looters. Ladies handed over Tulsi, Talraz and Dejhoors. The ‘raiders’ broke upon the metal boxes to see if any money was hidden. A family had hidden silver coins in ash in a wok. This was taken away. Raiders also thrashed few Muslims. When raiders entered the house of late Sat Lal Bhat, Razak Rather, the numberdar had tried to mislead them. He told them the house belonged to a Muslim family. Rather was thrashed by the raiders. Few pushthu-speaking villagers from the neighbouring Dodu were moving with the raiders and possibly helping in the identification. The Muslim families had also fled from their homes. Only the brave ones had stayed behind. Injured Raghav had been taken by the villagers to the hospital in Bijbehara. The incident created tremendous fear among the villagers, who did not dare enter their houses again. When the raiders first reached Sirhama, they had tried to befriend local Muslims, telling them to save their lives. The killing of Qadir Dar was ample warning to Pandits that no one could save them. Khirm: >From Sirhama the ‘raiders’ went to loot Khirm Pandits. The Pandits had taken dinner and gone to sleep. Mrs. Gopi Nath Raina, holding her 2½ year old son in her lap was still awake. There was a gentle knock at the door. It was Nand Lal. Before Mrs. Gopi Nath could respond, he left to knock at the door of Narayan Joo. Nandlal told Narayan Joo that raiders had reached Sirhama. He had gone to Sirhama to meet the Patwari. Nandlal added that the raiders had already killed two people in Sirhama and advised him to immediately shift the family somewhere. Naryanan Joo felt terribly disturbed. Nandlal also woke up other Pandit families. Sona Kak’s family escaped to the neighbouring Ashtadhar forests. Naryanan Joo’s family and others escaped to surrounding villages. The ‘raiders’ fired a few more shots. Sona Kak’s two sons Amarnath and Dina Nath came down from the forest to find out what the firing was all about. When they reached home, they found two raiders’ standing guard at the main door of the house. Other ‘raiders’ had gone in to collect the loot. The raiders took Amarnath  and Dina Nath as captives. Meanwhile their brother Gopi Nath also reached home. He too was caught. Somehow Dina Nath managed to escape. After bringing the looted goods down, they packed these into bundles. They then went to loot other Pandits houses of the locality. Nidhan Bhat, son of Bhagwan Dass and Shavjee, son of Thokar Ram were also taken as hostages. Gh. Mohd. Bhat was among the first to learn that raiders were likely to come to Khirm. His in-laws lived in Sirhama and they had intimated him. Gh. Mohd. decided to inform Pandits. Before he could reach Pandits' locality, the raiders caught hold of him. They asked him to show his house. He was a rich man. The ‘raiders’, information was accurate as they were guided by the Pushtu-speaking locals from Dodi. Gh. Mohd. led the raiders to some other house. As the raiders entered that house, Gh. Mohd. escaped. The ‘Raiders’ loaded the looted goods on the shoulders of Amarnath, Gopinath, Nidhan Bhat and fled towards forest. The ‘raiders’ told Amarnath since he was a bachelor they would try to arrange a match for him. When raiders and the hostages had walked 8 kms, they decided to rest. Hasan Gujar, the tenant of Sona Kak lived here. The ‘raiders’ demanded food from him. ‘Raiders’ were four in number, while others were locals from Dodi. One of these locals was quite friendly to the hostages. They too decided to befriend him and requested him to help them escape. The local man from Dodi told them, “Sirhama Pandits have gone to inform the police. When the police will come, I will blow the whistle. You should run away then.” Police Station: Meanwhile Sirhama Pandit delegation met Mirza Afzal Beg and related what had happened. Gopi Nath, son of late Sat Lal Bhat was a good friend of the Revenue Minister. Mirza Beg told Pandits, “How is this possible that the raiders have descended on Sirhama? We have already pushed them back.” The Revenue Minister made them wait till 5 AM. Mirza Afzal Beg along with a big contingent of police left for Sirhama at 5 AM. Why the police was not sent immediately remains a mystery? Sirhama Pandits had met Mirza Beg at 9 PM. The police force under the leadership of SHO Prithvi Nath ‘doctor’ chased the ‘raiders’ right upto Gutli Bagh. The dacoits threw the looted goods into Sindh. One of the dacoits was reported killed. As soon as the police reinforcements reached the foot of Ashtadhar forest, the Dodi local whistled the hostages to run away. They freed themselves as the ‘raiders’ were deep asleep and began descending down through the short-routes. When the hostages reached Herakhal, the local maidan, the whole Khirm had assembled to give them a grand reception. They embraced and fondled them in sheer joy. It looked like a festive occasion. The villagers accompanied the freed people to their homes. Retrospection: Earlier in the morning Dina Nath, son of Sona Kak (Khirm) had brought his family from Ashtadhar forests to home. A family member recalled, “It looked as if ghosts had descended down on our house. Clay and dust was all strewn around. The looters had broke open the boxes and made topsy-turvy of these. They had taken away everything”. In Sirhama not only Pandit ladies had gone in hiding but the whole village had taken shelter in the neighbouring villages of Mahind, Nowshehr, Hogam and Wapzan. As the dust settled down, people and the administrators began re-thinking on the entire episode. Was it a raiders’ attack or simply a dacoity committed under the guise of raiders? Surmises were made that the attack may have been the handiwork of some group of raiders, who may have stayed back. Others said the ‘raiders’ were from Gutlibagh, a village inhabited by Pathans. Some generations ago, few of these Pathans had come to Marhama (Dodi) and settled there. The two groups may have collaborated to commit a dacoity. As the raid was fresh in the public mind, the dacoits used it as a cover. Lastly the terrain was also favourable. Sirhama is the first entry point into the forest, while Khirm was the last village. In Kashmir myths and the history mingle too often. *The author is General Secretary, Panun Kashmir Kashmir Sentinel From madhuresh at cacim.net Mon Jun 1 10:40:51 2009 From: madhuresh at cacim.net (Madhuresh) Date: Mon, 01 Jun 2009 10:40:51 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] =?windows-1252?q?INVITATION_=3A_Internationalising_?= =?windows-1252?q?Caste=2C_Everybody=92s_Issue=3F_Or_Nobody=92s_Issue=3F_J?= =?windows-1252?q?une_4=2C_Thursday=2C_2009=2C_3=2E30_=96_6=2E30_pm=2C_Ind?= =?windows-1252?q?ia_Social_Institute=2C_New_Delhi?= Message-ID: <4A2362DB.3010704@cacim.net> No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com Version: 8.5.339 / Virus Database: 270.12.48/2147 - Release Date: 05/31/09 20:45:00 From gurgaon_workers_news at yahoo.co.uk Mon Jun 1 10:33:45 2009 From: gurgaon_workers_news at yahoo.co.uk (gurgaon_workers_news at yahoo.co.uk) Date: Mon, 1 Jun 2009 05:03:45 +0000 (GMT) Subject: [Reader-list] Gurgaon Workers News - Newsletter 18 - June 2009 Message-ID: <680437.8856.qm@web27805.mail.ukl.yahoo.com> Gurgaon Workers News - Newsletter 18 - June 2009 (full version: www.gurgaonworkersnews.wordpress.com) Gurgaon in Haryana is presented as the shining India, a symbol of capitalist success promising a better life for everyone behind the gateway of development. At a first glance the office towers and shopping malls reflect this chimera and even the facades of the garment factories look like three star hotels. Behind the facade, behind the factory walls and in the side streets of the industrial areas thousands of workers keep the rat-race going, producing cars and scooters for the middle-classes which end up in the traffic jam on the new highway between Delhi and Gurgaon. Thousands of young middle class people lose time, energy and academic aspirations on night-shifts in call centres, selling loan schemes to working-class people in the US or pre-paid electricity schemes to the poor in the UK. Next door, thousands of rural-migrant workers uprooted by the agrarian crisis stitch and sew for export, competing with their angry brothers and sisters in Bangladesh or Vietnam. And the rat-race will not stop; on the outskirts of Gurgaon, Asia's biggest Special Economic Zone is in the making. The following newsletter documents some of the developments in and around this miserable boom region. If you want to know more about working and struggling in Gurgaon, if you want more info about or even contribute to this project, please do so via: www.gurgaonworkersnews.wordpress.com gurgaon_workers_news at yahoo.co.uk In the June 2009 issue you can find: 1) Proletarian Experiences - Daily life stories and reports from a workers' perspective *** Lakhani Shoes Fire, the Unknown Deads and a Riot - Some reports from local workers indicate that the official number of fifteen dead workers at Lakhani Shoes is untrue, it could be as many as 100. In Gurgaon, Udyog Vihar Phase 1, less than a week after the Lakhani disaster another factory burnt down: Bhurji Supertech, a cooler manufacturing plant full of polystyrenes - officially no one came to harm. On the same day in Gujarat workers had enough of fatal accidents... *** Rural-Urban Migration Reversed? - Short introduction to the National Rural Guarantee Scheme (NREGS), reference to a new publication by 'Perspectives' on the Agrarian Crisis, followed by a poem on the rural plight. Finally a story of a factory worker who became unemployed in Gurgaon and Faridabad industrial areas, who decided to apply for a job with the National Rural Employment Guarantee Scheme (NREGS) 'back home' in the village, and who found out that nothing is guaranteed. Translated from Faridabad Majdoor Samaachaar issue 250. *** One and a half years and a global crisis later... - Rather subjective snap-shots about changes in and of Gurgaon, after a longer absence from the disaster-zone of progress. How did the urban land-scape convolute further, what happened to our old neighbour, who are the new friends we meet... *** Short workers' reports from Gurgaon industrial area - Reports from workers collected during Faridabad Majdoor Samaachaar distribution in Gurgaon, May 2009. Workers are employed by following companies: Dhir International Food Gallery Laxmi Embroidery Orchid Polypack Rolex Spark Taurus Home Furnishing Viva Global 2) Collective Action - Reports on proletarian struggles in the area *** Rebel Voices from Female Worker and Friends at Boni Polymers - Woman Worker's refusal to be victimised by the crisis in the automobile sector. After having been sacked from work in an automobile parts manufacturing factory in Faridabad industrial area she and her friends fight back and they are fighting fit... *** Impressions from demonstration for locked-out and jailed Musashi workers - The fate of many traditionally lead workers' struggles in the area: first locked out, then locked-up. On 11th of May 2009 around 400 people- most of them members of the official unions in Gurgaon, Manesar area - protested against the lock-out of Muasashi workers and against subsequent police repression. Musashi is a gear manufacturer for Honda HMSI. Please drop a line of rage at: www.musashi.co.in 3) According to Plan - General information on the development of the region or on certain company policies *** Babylon will fall eventually: Shaky Grounds of Gurgaon High Rise Real Estate - The real estate sector in Gurgaon is not only shaken in its money- form, the weak foundation of its high-rising concrete-steel-glass form corresponds to the thin base of its inflated share-holder value. Construction companies and real estate developers consciously ignore the shaky grounds of their Babylonian towers: falling water levels, crispy-sandy-moving soil and increasing earthquake dangers. Short chat with two architects. *** The upper-class is revolting - Thin air on the top. The first half of 2009 saw various protests of the middle class: students at a management college and parents at private schools agitating about high fees and other forms of tighter selection processes. Not that we can put much hope in these 'revolting future managers', but the protest shows the enormous pressure within the new formed 'business-class', aggravated by the crisis - a pressure which inevitably will be channelled into all kinds of political reactions and reactionary dynamics. Or not? Of course we support the struggle of students to be able to wear long hair and to hold hands... 4) About the Project - Updates on Gurgaon Workers News *** Delhi Film Screening - We plan to screen a series of workers' documentaries from various times and spaces. If you are interested in the screening or getting hold of the films (see list below), please get in touch. *** Glossary - Updated version of the Glossary: things that you always wanted to know, but could never be bothered to google. Now even in alphabetical order. News from the Special Exploitation Zone - www.gurgaonworkersnews.wordpress.com From dnyan21 at yahoo.com Mon Jun 1 12:54:14 2009 From: dnyan21 at yahoo.com (vaid theite) Date: Mon, 1 Jun 2009 00:24:14 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Reader-list] =?utf-8?q?INVITATION_=3A_Internationalising_Caste?= =?utf-8?b?LCBFdmVyeWJvZHnigJlzIElzc3VlPyBPciBOb2JvZHnigJlzIElzc3VlPyBK?= =?utf-8?b?dW5lIDQsIFRodXJzZGF5LCAyMDA5LCAzLjMwIOKAkyA2LjMwIHBtLCBJbmRp?= =?utf-8?q?a_Social_Institute=2C_New_Delhi?= Message-ID: <997658.91962.qm@web30708.mail.mud.yahoo.com> where is mail?? --- On Sun, 5/31/09, Madhuresh wrote: > From: Madhuresh > Subject: [Reader-list] INVITATION : Internationalising Caste, Everybody’s Issue? Or Nobody’s Issue? June 4, Thursday, 2009, 3.30 – 6.30 pm, India Social Institute, New Delhi > To: reader-list at sarai.net > Date: Sunday, May 31, 2009, 10:10 PM > > No virus found in this outgoing message. > Checked by AVG - www.avg.com > Version: 8.5.339 / Virus Database: 270.12.48/2147 - Release > Date: 05/31/09 20:45:00 > > -----Inline Attachment Follows----- > > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the > city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net > with subscribe in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> From madhuresh at cacim.net Mon Jun 1 14:02:04 2009 From: madhuresh at cacim.net (Madhuresh) Date: Mon, 01 Jun 2009 14:02:04 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] =?utf-8?q?INVITATION_=3A_Internationalising_Caste?= =?utf-8?b?LCBFdmVyeWJvZHnigJlzIElzc3VlPyBPciBOb2JvZHnigJlzIElzc3VlPyBK?= =?utf-8?b?dW5lIDQsIFRodXJzZGF5LCAyMDA5LCAzLjMwIOKAkyA2LjMwIHBtLCBJbmRp?= =?utf-8?q?a_Social_Institute=2C_New_Delhi?= In-Reply-To: <997658.91962.qm@web30708.mail.mud.yahoo.com> References: <997658.91962.qm@web30708.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <4A239204.9070501@cacim.net> No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com Version: 8.5.339 / Virus Database: 270.12.48/2147 - Release Date: 05/31/09 20:45:00 From kshmendra2005 at yahoo.com Mon Jun 1 14:48:58 2009 From: kshmendra2005 at yahoo.com (Kshmendra Kaul) Date: Mon, 1 Jun 2009 02:18:58 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Reader-list] Telephone Sheep Exhibit by Artist Jean Luc Cornec Message-ID: <396759.58651.qm@web57204.mail.re3.yahoo.com>   http://greenupgrader.com/2492/telephone-sheep-exhibit-by-artist-jean-luc-cornec/   From nilankur at cultureunplugged.com Mon Jun 1 15:02:50 2009 From: nilankur at cultureunplugged.com (Nilankur) Date: Mon, 1 Jun 2009 15:02:50 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Immediate opening for Film-Media Editor from Mumbai or Pune Message-ID: <9ED8C2AC-53AA-4CF4-AA26-F656F7C991D8@cultureunplugged.com> Immediate opening for Film-Media Editor from Mumbai or Pune : from Culture Unplugged: about us : http://www.cultureunplugged.com/landing.php http://studio.cultureunplugged.com We are looking for a Film-Media Editor with fresh eye, aesthetical sensitivity & substantial experience in editing on Final Cut Pro suit, to not only edit but take the conceptual direction forward and tell stories with his/her work for informative/graphically creative and/or narrative video production. We value flexibility, humility, openness, freshness & speed for this opportunity. If this description fit you, we are looking to discover you to build long-term relationship. Responsibilities include : Organize the project(s) Understand Culture Unplugged voice + the direction presented and apply to work Assess the footage and visualize the edit based on the concept direction Edit, finalize & cut with speed to meet the deadline Offer alternate edits or perform modifications if need, per direction These opportunity is in PUNE at Culture Unplugged Studio, and the start-date is immediate. It is a part-time freelance opportunity to begin with. Compensation is based on expertise/experience and mutual expectations. This opportunity requires the sample of work to be sent first. If you are interested, please send us samples of your editing work at the following address : Culture Unplugged Studios, Clover Centrum 2nd floor, 245 Boat Club Road, Pune 411001 You can email us your profile/interest at : apply at cultureunplugged.com In respect of time, we will contact you if we find your profile/ expectation a fit. We thank you for your attention & interst. To learn about us, please visit http://www.cultureunplugged.com/landing.php From jeebesh at sarai.net Mon Jun 1 15:03:41 2009 From: jeebesh at sarai.net (Jeebesh) Date: Mon, 1 Jun 2009 15:03:41 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Telephone Sheep Exhibit by Artist Jean Luc Cornec In-Reply-To: <396759.58651.qm@web57204.mail.re3.yahoo.com> References: <396759.58651.qm@web57204.mail.re3.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <8CBEABF6-898D-4199-8BEF-019AEC5929B7@sarai.net> The Black Sheep is very stunning :) On 01-Jun-09, at 2:48 PM, Kshmendra Kaul wrote: > > http://greenupgrader.com/2492/telephone-sheep-exhibit-by-artist-jean-luc-cornec/ > > > > > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > subscribe in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> From madhuresh at cacim.net Mon Jun 1 15:05:10 2009 From: madhuresh at cacim.net (Madhuresh) Date: Mon, 01 Jun 2009 15:05:10 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] =?windows-1252?q?INVITATION_=3A_Internationalising_?= =?windows-1252?q?Caste=2C_Everybody=92s_Issue=3F_Or_Nobody=92s_Issue=3F_J?= =?windows-1252?q?une_4=2C_Thursday=2C_2009=2C_3=2E30_=96_6=2E30_pm=2C_Ind?= =?windows-1252?q?ia_Social_Institute=2C_New_Delhi?= In-Reply-To: <4A239204.9070501@cacim.net> References: <997658.91962.qm@web30708.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <4A239204.9070501@cacim.net> Message-ID: <4A23A0CE.3050403@cacim.net> No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com Version: 8.5.339 / Virus Database: 270.12.48/2147 - Release Date: 05/31/09 20:45:00 From dulali.nag at gmail.com Mon Jun 1 15:09:23 2009 From: dulali.nag at gmail.com (DULALI NAG) Date: Mon, 1 Jun 2009 15:09:23 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Telephone Sheep Exhibit by Artist Jean Luc Cornec In-Reply-To: <396759.58651.qm@web57204.mail.re3.yahoo.com> References: <396759.58651.qm@web57204.mail.re3.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <9a38651a0906010239r7d086539nb624cfca2fc63d0f@mail.gmail.com> Amazing artistic imagination! Thanks. On Mon, Jun 1, 2009 at 2:48 PM, Kshmendra Kaul wrote: > > > http://greenupgrader.com/2492/telephone-sheep-exhibit-by-artist-jean-luc-cornec/ > > > > > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > subscribe in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: From kshmendra2005 at yahoo.com Mon Jun 1 15:27:41 2009 From: kshmendra2005 at yahoo.com (Kshmendra Kaul) Date: Mon, 1 Jun 2009 02:57:41 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Reader-list] Telephone Sheep Exhibit by Artist Jean Luc Cornec Message-ID: <967982.3034.qm@web57201.mail.re3.yahoo.com> 'Black Sheep' usually are quite stunning. Easily spotted. Different. You cannot dye their wool. End up faster than others on the butcher's block. Price paid for being Non-Conformists. --- On Mon, 6/1/09, Jeebesh wrote: From: Jeebesh Subject: Re: [Reader-list] Telephone Sheep Exhibit by Artist Jean Luc Cornec To: "Kshmendra Kaul" Cc: "sarai list" Date: Monday, June 1, 2009, 3:03 PM The Black Sheep is very stunning :) On 01-Jun-09, at 2:48 PM, Kshmendra Kaul wrote: > > http://greenupgrader.com/2492/telephone-sheep-exhibit-by-artist-jean-luc-cornec/ > > > > > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with  > subscribe in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> From cashmeeri at yahoo.com Mon Jun 1 16:11:14 2009 From: cashmeeri at yahoo.com (cashmeeri) Date: Mon, 1 Jun 2009 03:41:14 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Reader-list] Extinguishing Superman - by Rahel Aima Message-ID: <637729.94414.qm@web31505.mail.mud.yahoo.com> AUTHOR's NOTE:   " ...... i now disagree slightly with the deindividuation as ultimate end goal. Also needs to be emphasised that fascism= 'dressing up' in the superman/ubermensch guise, and that an 'actual' superman retains variances/multiplicities vs fascistic flattening of difference.  with deindividuation/extitutionality as ostensible end goal though, superman too must be killed."       Extinguishing Superman - by Rahel Aima   In the beginning was the language, and the language was gravity.  Before the beginning was infinite violence.  When violence met language, there was conflict; at once collision and collusion. Conflict became a reproductive space of exchange, and atomisation became the original sin. We learnt what evil was, and it was the One.  Gravity meanwhile was inscribed into (celestial) bodies, becoming the first legal contract between them.  So it is that particles collide to produce fragmented planets and people, in an exchange of violent energy.  Humans similarly collide to exchange pleasantries, and sometimes bodily fluids.  On the level of language, morphemes collide to exchange ejaculations of speed and to reproduce meaning.  In the eighteenth century, these forms might have been approached through money, character and root (Deleuze 1988).  Yet this beginning is simply the beginning of the rational, instinctual Man-form, and its subsequent trajectory through time and space.  Following Nietzsche (1968), the universe itself is a monster of energy without beginning, without end, not expanding but constantly transforming, in an infinite play of forces, and waves of forces which work like concepts to create embodied affects. Violence is this monstrous energy.  The universe is like the Hindu Trimurti, a compound form of the eternally self creating Brahma, the mediating preserver, Vishnu, and the eternally self destroying Shiva.  It may otherwise be thought of in terms of the tripartite symbol of Aum, whose three letters represent the primordial vibration of the universe.  Each letter corresponds to a state of existence, from the lower curve’s waking consciousness to the dream state’s suspended consciousness to the upper curve’s unconsciousness or deep sleep – A-U-M respectively.  The spot meanwhile is the absolute consciousness that hovers over the semicircle of the maya, sometimes conceived as the illusion of duality. As humans we exist in this illusory fold of maya, which both preserves and reproduces our world through conflict. Unlike the equivalent violence, the spot does not collide with the other cosmic forces.  And although illustrative, the symbol is no longer experienced in the absolute: matereality has killed it along with the gods. Our own material world is like an atomised pomegran(i)te, and we exist as six billion unitary seeds in it, bounded by State membranes. At its core is a well of viscous rage; as with the Spanish term for pomegranate, granada, it holds explosive potential. Like the pomegranate, it is in constant tension of cracking open, as tec(h)tonic plates and demographics create frictions and fictions alike.   This world is fragile and Earth is a victim; sometimes it fights back through 'natural' disasters like earthquakes and volcanic eruptions that reveal its innermost violent urges.   Global war-ming may be seen as the most advanced stage of this struggle, fought not only through the Earth's material fabric, but through the atmosphere itself. As humans within this world, we may meanwhile either ossify into institutions, or decompose into death, after which nothing happens. Bataille suggests, “the world is purely parodic, in other words, that each thing seen is the parody of another, or is the same thing in a deceptive form” (1985:5).  Even as air is the atmospheric parody of water, human is the atmospheric parody of animal, and sexual desire is the instinctual parody of violence.  War then becomes a parody of the initial monstrous violence, now evaporated into the atmosphere.  And as humans, we ourselves are war.  This sphere of war looks to have a maximal surface area, not unlike the cortex of the brain, replete with striated folds of ‘peace’.  The State inseminates this sphere through the language of legality, similarly parodying violence through its own appropriations of war and peace.  In military terminology, it is the ‘theatre of conflict’ where violence once again meets language, and is at once both a performative stage and a gynecological operating theatre.  The language of war thus becomes an almost viral vaccination.  It infects humans to breed cultures of conflict that create microfascisms and affects of dis-ease.  At the same time, it retains a seductive possibility to inflame the mass tissue, and to consume the organs of both the State and the human.  Crucially, “the body without organs is not a dead body but a living body all the more alive and teeming once it has blown apart the organism and its organisation” (Deleuze and Guattari:30). How then can we die without dying, and repopulate our bodies with multiplicities without recapitating God? Perhaps we can redesignate our instinctual procedures of satisfaction, transforming them into the disorganised forms of ‘ex-tincts’ and ‘ex-titutions’.  The ex-titution will work as an intensified multiplicity of pores, spots and black holes, bounded not by walls or language, but by permeable membranes which replace collision with a free flow of concepts. Ex-tincts will become these hypergravitational black holes, dissolving any boundaries between internal and external forces to return to the initial violence.  We will ourselves become constellations of ex-titutions through the parodic instinct closest to the base violence: desire. For as Deleuze and Guattari suggest, “whenever someone makes love, really makes love, that person constitutes a body without organs, alone and with the other person or people” (2004:30). Yet ours is a world that cannot be loved to the point of death (Bataille 1985:179).  If, following Larkin, all life is slow dying (decaying), then we must necessarily look to the language of disaster to speed up the process.  Indeed, the disaster “does not dissuade us from dying; it invites us – escaping the time where it is always too late – to endure inopportune death, with no relation to anything save the disaster as return” (Blanchot 1980:4).  The disaster is a rhizomatic Superfold where “literature merely turns back on itself in an endless reflexivity” to uncover a “strange language within language” (Deleuze 1988:131).  Duende is this knowledge of disaster, as seeded through creative production.  Perhaps it will even herald Nietzsche’s eternal return to the pre-primordial violence. We are bookended by the disaster – as long as it functions, the human does not yet, and anymore, exist.  How then can we initiate the disaster; how can we move beyond the form of the man to become the superman?  How, essentially, can we be beings without being ‘human beings’? In discussing ‘the pack’, Canetti notes that the unitary Man-form came about through incorporating “into himself, by transformations, all the animals he knew” (1984:108).  The more perfect his parodic folding was, the intenser his awareness of their numbers, and he felt what it was to be many.  If man thus symbolically imprisons life in this way, the superman must work to free life, perhaps by radically redistributing its organs as a first step towards becoming an intensified ex-titution.  The superman is indeed in control of all resources, whether organic, animal or mineral.  In the realm of forces, it is  even “in charge of the being of language (that formless, mute, unsignifying region where language can find its freedom even from whatever it has to say” (Deleuze 1964:132).  We have in actuality already dressed up as superman in the past, building fascist concentration camps that annihilate the human through the denial of speech. Within fascism, the theatre of conflict becomes a theatre of dominance, creating a cycle where ownership is possession is destruction.  It is underwritten by a singular force of control – to dominate a woman, army, or land becomes one and the same consumptive action.  Yet this control is not only external, but becomes inscribed into the fascist to reorder both instincts and organs through ritualistic repetition.  It is especially seen in Theweleit’s accounts of the Freikorps, where sexual desire is reassigned to function simply for the pure joy of violent destruction.  The telos of domination thus becomes not reproductive exchange, but a rationalized orgiastic annihilation.  Fascinatingly, even as the prohibitive layers of language and amnesia are sloughed off to reveal the inner pool of violence, the Freikorps find themselves almost silenced by their violent acts. So it is that one of them is found to compare the undressing of a woman to getting a shot in the lungs.  What might have been a loss of breath is literalised in their writing as an imagined self destruction. Perhaps they heed Blanchot’s caution that “it is not you who will speak; let the disaster speak in you, even if it be by your forgetfulness or silence (1980:4). Yet if superman is a fascist, we must kill him too. And if brutal inhumanity is not enough, what lies beyond superman?  This is to say, what new form will emerge that is neither God nor man nor superman?  Concentration camps might (be) the closest that western civilization has come to dehumanisation through language.  Atomic bombs meanwhile might be the closest it has come to total destruction.  One day a graviton bomb might be built that will destroy language by folding it in on itself. Until then, however, there will be “no explosion except a book” (Blanchot 1980:7), whose only critique can be “an ontology for the annihilation of human beings” (Deleuze 1988:130).  This ‘book’ need not necessarily be a printed and bound book, but may be any kind of creative bomb.  It must however hold plasmatic potential as conceptualised by Sergei Eisenstein, in its “rejection of once-and-forever allotted form, freedom from ossification, the ability to dynamically assume any form” (1989:24). Eisenstein sees this ‘plasmaticness’ as best embodied within fire, with its constant reinvention, expenditure and colourful consumption of forms.  Crucially, fire is even eroticized in its mysterious allure and attractiveness which served to lead to a onetime designation of pyromania as a crime of a sexual nature.  Yet like fascistic acts, it is consumptive and needs a constant refueling. The new bomb will burn not on the carbon of lifeforms or the silicon of dying stars, but will instead dip into an inner well of violence to write with both lactic acid and duende.   At the same time, it must necessarily be outside State appropriation to become unconsumable. It must function like Disney’s films, which, for Eistensten, do not expose sunspots, but “themselves act like reflections of sunrays and spots across the screen of the earth” (1989:9).  These spots might be thought of as ex-tincts, and the screen as the disorganised face of the intensified ex-titution that we will become. This creative bomb will serve as the final weapon to cut –or perhaps blow – off superman’s rationalising head to become becoming itself, in the ex-titution of Bataille’s Acéphale (1985).  For in escaping from its head, “(s)he has found beyond himself not God, who is the prohibition against crime, but a being who is unaware of prohibition’. The Acéphale thus breaks the dualistic confines of the illusory maya to become part of the universal Trimurti multiplicity.  (S)he is, “in the same eruption Birth and Death. (S)he is not a man.  (S)he is not a god either. (S)he is not me but (s)he is more than me”.  We are ferociously religious and religiously ferocious, and discover ourselves in him, “in other words as a monster” (Bataille). When human we exist in relation to everything else through the forces of gravity and language, but having escaped from this primordial prison, we are finally irrational, ex-tinctual and free.   REFERENCE LIST Bataille, Georges 1985 The Solar Anus, The Practice of Joy before Death, The Sacred Conspiracy. Visions of Excess Selected Writings 1927-1939.  University of Minnesota Press Blanchot, Maurice 1980 The Writing of the Disaster.  University of Nebraska Press. Canetti, Elias 1984 Crowds and Power. Farrar, Straus and Giroux Deleuze, Giles 1988 On the Death of Man and Superman. Foucault. University of Minnesota Press. 2004 Instincts and Institutions. Desert Islands and Other Texts 1953-1974.  Semiotext(e) Deleuze, Giles and Guattari, Felix 1987 1914: One or Several Wolves  A Thousand Plateaus Schrizophrenia and Capitalism.  University of Minnesota Press. Eisenstein, Sergei 1985 Eisenstein On Disney. Heinemann Phillip Larkin 1964 Nothing to be said. The Whitsun Weddings.  Random House. Friedrich Nietzsche 1968 The Will to Power. Vintage Books. Serres, Michel 1995 The Natural Contract.  University of Michigan Press Theweleit, Klaus 1987 Male Fantasies, Vol. 1: Women, Floods, Bodies, History. University of Minnesota   From yamunajiye at gmail.com Mon Jun 1 17:51:44 2009 From: yamunajiye at gmail.com (Yamuna Jiye Abhiyaan) Date: Mon, 1 Jun 2009 17:51:44 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] YJA - A public interest report disguised as "secret"? Message-ID: <659937df0906010521r7321cd1dg3200fc347652ae22@mail.gmail.com> To, Dr Manmohan Singh ji, Hon’ble Prime Minister Government of India, NEW DELHI Respected Sir, Greetings from Yamuna Jiye Abhiyaan, which is a civil society consortium of organisations and individuals, come together for the revival of river Yamuna. First of all allow us to congratulate you in your taking over once again as the Prime Minister of the new government. Sir, we write you this note with great sadness as this is about a report which on the face of it has originated from a direction given by your own good self. We are pained specially more because if this is the manner of the functioning of the state in matters of great public interest and dealing with the future of the natural India - threatened gravely by the vested interests - by a government headed by a person of impeccable integrity like you then one can only shudder at imagining the state of the nation, when lesser mortals may come to rule the roost! Sir, the report in question is the report dated 10 November 20098 strangely marked ‘secret’ of a Finance Ministry initiated “Expert Group to examine the Schemes of Statutory Clearances for Industrial and Infrastructure Projects in India”. It is notable that this expert group with obvious aim to ‘speed up clearances’ had overwhelmingly industry representatives on it so much so that the sole civil society representative on it (CEO of a well known conservation NGO) has signed the report as a representative of the CII. Sir, without going into the merits or demerits of the recommendations of the report (since these have been already covered by the recent media reports and been very ably presented by Ms Sunita Narain, Director, CSE in her critique of the same in her communication in the matter with the then Secretary, Planning Commission) we wish to bring some fundamental issues relating to transparent governance in our land so ably facilitated by the greatest gift of your last government to this country namely the Right to Information Act (RTI). Sir, one can well understand a grievance held by a stakeholder like the industry leader concerning this or that regulatory mechanisms and the need of a redressal platform / mechanism for the same. But when the mechanism under question namely the Environmental Impact Assessment (EIA) and related Environmental Clearance (EC) is the subject matter and above all when a matter like ‘Public Hearing’ is involved then how can it be secretive in nature and then appears to be carried through in a hush-hush manner. Sir, your kind attention is invited to the recently proposed amendments to the EIA Notification of 2006, wherein many recommendations of this Expert group find a place. Thus, allow us to seek your indulgence on: a) Should not any such Expert Group have concerned civil society representatives on it? b) Should such a report ever be treated as ‘Secret’ when the issues concern public interest in such critical manner as the future of unsuspecting people's lands and livelihoods and above all their natural environment? c) Should not all such reports be immediately brought to public attention under the provision of the Section 4 (suo moto disclosure) of the RTI? On another but related matter, you may be aware that today the world over the assessment of environmental impacts (with their obvious limitations) of industry and infrastructure projects have given way to holistic assessment of “risks” (including environmental and social) associated with such activities and then to decide in a transparent and participatory manner whether the proposed action is worth taking the risk or not? Accordingly we request you to: Let this report be made public on urgent basis Let in future all such reports be suo moto brought to the public attention under Section 4 of the RTI Let the whole process of already watered down EIA Notification 2006 be reviewed by a truly representative (including those from the industry) Expert Group before any action on the proposed changes is taken Let us also enter the realm of holistic “risk assessments” of proposed projects from the present regime of poorly conducted and evaluated environmental and social impacts assessments of potentially risky projects. Sir, we sincerely hope that your honor would find merit in our humble appeal, Warm regards Manoj Misra, Convenor Yamuna Jiye Abhiyaan DELHI -- www.yamunajiyeabhiyaan.blogspot.com From kshmendra2005 at yahoo.com Mon Jun 1 18:39:37 2009 From: kshmendra2005 at yahoo.com (Kshmendra Kaul) Date: Mon, 1 Jun 2009 06:09:37 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Reader-list] The "Sound of Music" Train Station Message-ID: <847116.69761.qm@web57208.mail.re3.yahoo.com>   http://video.yahoo.com/watch/4816051/12849087       A COMMENT: "Sound Of Music" Train Station Dance: Why Is It So Popular? (VIDEO) Huffington Post Alex Leo 04/17/09   A video of almost 200 people taking over Antwerpen's Centraal Station in Belgium and doing a carefully choreographed dance to the Do Re Mi song (aka Maria's Dance aka Maria's Song) from "Sound of Music" has garnered almost a million views on YouTube, and continues to grow, sprouting a new round of google trends today.   People like viral videos, they like flash mobs, and they like weird junk on the Internet, but this video has struck an especially emotional chord with those who've watched it. The folks at Shallow Nation called it a "sheer joy to watch"; Dancer Universe blog chirped, "How could you not smile for hours? I'm smiling now just typing this!"; and Salon.com's Table Talk offered this to the discussion: "The dancers are presenting the purest form of art imaginable: art simply and truly for the sake of art...They managed to punch right through my cynicism and show me that good things are still out there and there are good people in the world...In a small way, I have a deeper understanding of what it is to be human because of the actions of 200 fellow humans in a train station in Belgium." It's a publicity stunt for a reality show, but that doesn't seem to bother anyone, they just like it for what it is: a really cool, well shot video, that lets average people express their joy and talent and make those around them happy for a brief period. The producers chose the exact right song: one that harkens back to our childhoods, but also recalls Maria's unabashed upbeatness in the face of evil. We're in a global economic crisis, America's fighting two wars, there's genocide in Darfur, AIDs running rampant, and a pretty good shot that we could all be killed by bird flu in a year or two. We need this video.   http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2009/04/12/sound-of-music-train-stat_n_186016.html   From kshmendra2005 at yahoo.com Mon Jun 1 19:01:17 2009 From: kshmendra2005 at yahoo.com (Kshmendra Kaul) Date: Mon, 1 Jun 2009 06:31:17 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Reader-list] jazz flute - beatboxing by Dirko Juchem Message-ID: <393169.93726.qm@web57201.mail.re3.yahoo.com> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c_mp0-D-hxs   Profile   Dirko Juchem has made a name for himself, both nationally and internationally, as a saxophone and flute player for many years. He has been involved in nearly 100 CD and LP productions and his tours have taken him as far as Los Angeles and Taiwan. He has a lot of excellent references. He has played with wellkown German and international artists such as Rolf Zuckowski, Barbara Dennerlein, Anne haigis, Jethro Tull, Jazz-Kantine or Mike Oldfield Band. In addition to numerous concerts and CDs with other artists and bands he has presented his own productions whether in duo or with full band. Besides, Dirko Juchem is the author of numerous methods and has written for the music magazins "Sonic" and "Sound Check". He used to work as a visiting lecturer for Akademie Remscheid (Germany).   http://www.schott-music.com/shop/persons/featured/9881/index.html From isouweine at gmail.com Mon Jun 1 20:23:23 2009 From: isouweine at gmail.com (Isaac souweine) Date: Mon, 1 Jun 2009 22:53:23 +0800 Subject: [Reader-list] Happy Sunday :) Library and Garbage bins In-Reply-To: <5af37bb0905240651w462a900bi44883a01c23fb729@mail.gmail.com> References: <341380d00905110349r9511b39i146b97445c2f52ae@mail.gmail.com> <748635.42842.qm@web57204.mail.re3.yahoo.com> <1646DD34-E908-45F0-A39B-1B7BED63CB7B@sarai.net> <5af37bb0905240651w462a900bi44883a01c23fb729@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <34bf33330906010753p3755377fydf459be9361c0981@mail.gmail.com> Hi All - Just writing to add a little visual postscript to the talk of libraries from last month: http://curiousexpeditions.org/?p=78 The aesthetics of accumulated analog knowledge is such a pleasing thing to consider. Best, Isaac On Sun, May 24, 2009 at 9:51 PM, yasir ~يا سر wrote: > its a familiar story with the bins and sewers, but community libraries are > a > delight, when they happen and are around on someones desire to share books > and collect, and have a reading room. the govt ones are in tatters, one > notices a swell in titles in/from the sixties... > > y > > khi > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > subscribe in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> > From 2tahamehmood at googlemail.com Mon Jun 1 21:04:50 2009 From: 2tahamehmood at googlemail.com (Taha Mehmood) Date: Mon, 1 Jun 2009 16:34:50 +0100 Subject: [Reader-list] News Items posted on the net on Multipurpose National Identity Cards-120 Message-ID: <65be9bf40906010834y7e500794r231bc2976f2efe56@mail.gmail.com> http://www.indianexpress.com/news/multipurpose-ids-for-citizens-by-2011-chidambaram/466375/ Multi-purpose IDs for citizens by 2011: PC Express news service Posted: Wednesday, May 27, 2009 at 0358 hrs IST New Delhi: As it works on countering terror, the government is stepping up measures to ensure availability of multipurpose identity cards to all citizens by 2011. Union Home Minister P Chidambaram, speaking to reporters after assuming charge, said: “The National Population Register will be ready by 2011 and the Multipurpose National Identity Cards (MNICs) will be issued to all residents in 2011.” The project aims at providing a unique national identity number to each person in the National Population Register, he said. A pilot project has been under implementation on an experimental basis covering a population of 30.95 lakh in selected areas in 12 states and one Union Territory. “In the coastal districts and Andaman and Nicobar Islands, work has already started,” he said. The identity card is a smart card with a microprocessor chip. The identity smart cards are being issued to citizens above 18 years of age. From 2tahamehmood at googlemail.com Mon Jun 1 21:06:37 2009 From: 2tahamehmood at googlemail.com (Taha Mehmood) Date: Mon, 1 Jun 2009 16:36:37 +0100 Subject: [Reader-list] MNIC: Parliament Questions - 18 Message-ID: <65be9bf40906010836v6ffea020y1c3e78754aa8f2c9@mail.gmail.com> http://164.100.47.132/psearch/QResult13.aspx?qref=20364 GOVERNMENT OF INDIA MINISTRY OF LAW , JUSTICE AND COMPANY AFFAIRS LOK SABHA STARRED QUESTION NO 166 ANSWERED ON 08.03.2001 USE OF ELECTRONIC VOTING MACHINE AND PHOTO IDENTITY CARDS 166 . Shri HARIBHAU MAHALE (a) whether the Election Commission has taken a decision to get the polling done through electronic voting machines and to make the use of identity cards mandatory; (b) if so, the details thereof; (c) whether the Election Commission has completed the work of issuing identity card to every eligible citizen of the country; and (d) if so, the details thereof and if not, the reasons therefor? ANSWER MINISTER OF LAW, JUSTICE & COMPANY AFFAIRS AND SHIPPING (SHRI ARUN JAITLEY) (a)&(b) The Election Commission has informed that it has decided to use the Electronic Voting Machines as widely as possible. The use of these machines would, however, depend upon the local conditions and availability of stock. The question of making use of these machines compulsory at elections, therefore, does not arise at the present moment. So far as the question of making the use of photo identity cards mandatory for voters at elections is concerned, it may be stated that it is not possible to take such a measure in view of the fact that only 63.39% of voters have so far been issued these cards taking on all India average. In some States/Union territories, more than 70% voters have been issued photo identity cards. (c)&(d) The registration of electors and the scheme of issuing photo identity cards to electors are continuous and ongoing processes. It is, therefore, not possible to cover all the electors under the scheme at any given point of time. A statement containing status report on progress of the scheme is laid on the Table of the House. From kauladityaraj at gmail.com Mon Jun 1 21:33:14 2009 From: kauladityaraj at gmail.com (Aditya Raj Kaul) Date: Mon, 1 Jun 2009 21:33:14 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Bomb found near Anand railway track Message-ID: <6353c690906010903o8050494w6458ba45036d2798@mail.gmail.com> *Bomb found near Anand railway track* *Anand (Gujarat)* (PTI) A low intensity bomb was detected near rail tracks about 50 meters from Anand railway station here on Monday, police said. The bomb attached with a timer device was kept between two tracks near the Phalej railway crossing and later defused by the Bomb Disposal Squad, they said, adding a letter signed in the name of the banned Student Islamic Movement of India (SIMI) was also recovered from the spot. According to forensic experts, four detonators were connected in a circuit also having a clock and powered by batteries. The bomb had metal shrapnels and glass pieces but there was no explosive material inside it, they said, adding that there was no explosion as the batteries had got disconnected from the circuit. The letter was typed in Gujarati and asked the people to join 'jihad' and follow the SIMI. The origin of the letter is being investigated, police said. From kauladityaraj at gmail.com Mon Jun 1 21:37:53 2009 From: kauladityaraj at gmail.com (Aditya Raj Kaul) Date: Mon, 1 Jun 2009 21:37:53 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Yet another Propaganda against Pandits Message-ID: <6353c690906010907rac9a5f3we5cbd4ec8ce5e77a@mail.gmail.com> *Himachal carpets being sold under Kashmir brand * GI for Kashmir carpets not possible: CDI *Rashid Paul* - *Rising Kashmir* *Srinagar May 31:* The absence of trade mark and Geographic Indication for Kashmir Carpet is taking a heavy toll on carpet business as rugs from Himachal Pradesh are being sold under Kashmir brand. Kashmir carpet has an identity of its own in the world rugs market, however, lack of discrete identification label provides room for unscrupulous people to manipulate Kashmir name, according to carpet dealers. The unfair practice is being followed in Himachal Pradesh where carpets are being sold under Kashmiri name for the past couple of years. Experts warn if such fiddling is not stopped Kashmir carpet industry with an annual turn over of more than Rs 1000 crores (official estimates Rs 500 crores) will be ruined. The industry directly provides employment to more than one lakh people. Confirming the trend, the president Kashmir Chamber of Commerce and Industry (KCCI), Dr Mubin Shah said that a Kashmir migrant Pandit associated with Carpet Promotion Council of India is selling Himachal made carpets as a Kashmiri product in the Indian and the international market. The government has wasted one year in executing the Geographic Indication (GI) plan that could have stopped any unwarranted venture with Kashmir handicraft items, he said adding the Chamber will soon develop a label of its own that will certify carpets made in Kashmir. Mubin claimed that KCCI has been authorized by government of India in giving certificate of origin to handicrafts manufactured in Kashmir. He said the chamber will hire the services of some artists and experts to begin the process of certification. Zubair Ahmed, director of Indian Institute of Carpet Technology, Bagh-e-ali-mardan-khan said that labeling and certification proposal for Kashmiri carpets has been sent to the central government. We also meet KCCI in this regard. Labeling and certification will to some extent help in protecting the carpet industry of Kashmir, he said. M S Farooqi, director Craft Development Institute told Rising Kashmir that G I status, that protects the community ownership of a particular handmade product, can not be extended to Kashmir carpets as similar ones are made in Iran, Pakistan and Afghanistan. However, means are being devised to bring the product under the G I tag by connecting it with indigenous silk, which has already received a silk mark. From kauladityaraj at gmail.com Tue Jun 2 01:36:43 2009 From: kauladityaraj at gmail.com (Aditya Raj Kaul) Date: Tue, 2 Jun 2009 01:36:43 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Hand Folded APPEAL - Save a young life.. In-Reply-To: <6353c690906011305t276e7a87ka91d577b57dcb470@mail.gmail.com> References: <6353c690906011305t276e7a87ka91d577b57dcb470@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <6353c690906011306m48a39248sd7dbbffa19a9663a@mail.gmail.com> friends.. a close relative is in bad shape.. Abhishek Sinha from Bangalore, a young friend is suffering from Bi-phenothypic Leukemia (BAL), a type of blood cancer. He needs urgent matched unrelated donor bone marrow transplantation (MUD). Funds required for the treatment Rs. 1 Crore. Pls help spread the word in your company, and also with friends, relatives, social networks etc. * You can get all details at www.helpabhishek.com/* Online financial assistance can also be provided. Even a small contribution will go a big way to help him. in hope.. thanks Aditya Raj Kaul From pawan.durani at gmail.com Tue Jun 2 09:33:40 2009 From: pawan.durani at gmail.com (Pawan Durani) Date: Tue, 2 Jun 2009 09:33:40 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Ahad War deserves a memorial Message-ID: <6b79f1a70906012103y4d281b51lf62a0759abe780e1@mail.gmail.com> Ahad War deserves a memorial By Kuldeep Raina If Kashmiriat denotes religious toleration and pluralistic co-existence, then surely Kashmir has remained bereft of it for most of the medieval and the present times. Rajataranginis of Pandit Jonaraja and Srivara and the chronicles penned down by Muslim historians - Tarikh-e-Hassan, Baharistan Shahi, Tohft-Tul Ahbab speak about torture, killings, forced conversion, exile of native Hindus besides the pillage and plunder of their shrines. Whenever Kashmiris received accolades for practising Kashmiriat, it has been the individuals, rather than the society at large that has retrieved ‘Kashmiriat’. Nowhere in the sub-continent has history been abused so blatantly as in Kashmir. To borrow a phrase from Edward P. Thompson, the great British historian distortion of history is an nationalised industry here. The trials and tribulations the Kashmiri Pandits went through in the wake of tribal raid in 1947 has still remained under warps due to the compulsions of the ruling class in Delhi and Srinagar. At this crucial juncture of history, when Kashmiri Pandit community is languishing in exile and stands disinherited by the majority community in Valley, introspection on what went wrong in the past would help draw lessons for the future. It is time we remember our saviours. During the tribal raid, Pandits' trauma and agony would have been much-less had the majority community demonstrated secular behaviour. Ahad war’s role amply testifies it. Ahad war belonged to Chogal village, 2 kms from Handwara. He was numberbar of the village. When the raid began he had decided that he would defend Pandits to the last and stood by his word. The Sarpanch of the village was Gh. Qadir Masala. He was an opportunist, who always joined the winning side. In this overwhelming Muslim village (250 families), 22 Sikh families lived on one side of the Pohru river, close to Sopore-Kupwara highway. Pandit Mohalla was located on the other side of Pohru. There were nine Pandit families. One Kanth Koul had come from Srinagar to try his luck at business. He ran a shop in Chogal. This family’s  descendants today run a famous business concern. ­“Janki Nath - Mahendra Nath” There is a reference to village Chogal in medieval chronicles. Chogal was very famous because of a temple called Bomar. It used to attract big crowds of people. At the instance of an Iraqi missionary this temple was demolished. Locals under the leadership of Ahald war had resisted this then. This was in early seventeenth century. Tribal Raid 1947-48: Chogal Pandits learnt about tribal raid from Amarchand Pandita, who had gone to participate in the barat of late Pt. Moti Lal Kuchroo of Baramulla. At venukur, the barat was Waylaid and attacked by raiders. Eight members of the barat party were killed. Amarchand, who too was in barat party, had a providential escape. He reached home safely to tell that raiders were killing Pandits. The Pandits of the village, frightened by this first hand account of killings went to seek the advice of Ahad war. He extended complete sympathy and assured all possible help to save them. Ahad war arranged guard for Pandit houses during night. When the D-day arrived, raiders guided by three locals Imamdin, Mahd Teli and Shamsuddin Khan descended on Sikh part of Chogal. Pandits were in their houses and were caught unawares. To give time to Pandits to flee, Ahad war devised a strategy. Ahad war took Moshar Nath, secretary of Panchayat along with him besides few local Muslims and went to meet raiders, before they would enter Pandit part of Chogal. To hoodwink raiders, Moshar Nath was given a green flag to hold aloft. Sikh houses had already been set on fire. Raiders, to whom loot was more important than anything else, caught hold of Moshar Nath and threatened to kill him. He handed over all gold and the money he carried with him. Ahad war got worried that raiders would not leave Pandits. In broken Kashmiri he pleaded  before raiders to spare Pandits. War told them that these people had become Shaikhs and have accepted Islam. The local trio had incited the raiders. They threatened to kill Moshar Nath that in case he failed to show where Gana  Bhat was hiding. To save his skin,  Moshar Nath called Gana Bhat out from hiding. Mahd Teli had rivalry with Gana Bhat. He thought raiders would settle the score for him. Meanwhile,  another batch of raiders came accompanied by 1500 people belonging to Kultari, Sikh Chogal, Guloora, Kuhroo and Yaru. This group of raiders particularly looked for Gopi Nath Channa, a Patwari posted here. He belonged to Badiyar, Srinagar. Gopi Nath came forward and agreed to take raiders to his house. Ahad war went along with him and wanted to help him out. Gopi Nath put stealthily Rs 200 in Ahad War's pheran pocket so that he could plead that he had borrowed money from Ahad war and save rest of the money. Gopi Nath led raiders to his house and asked Ahad war in raider's presence to give him some money as he had nothing. Gopi Nath murmured in Kashmiri, ‘Meh traymay chandas Rs 200, yori ditam bah dimaha yiman’. (I have put in your pocket Rs 200. Hand me over these so that I give it to them)}. So Ahad war played the trick for Gopi Nath. Raiders felt Ahad war had more money. They searched his other pocket and left him with nothing. Conversions: Raiders then shot dead Shridhar Joo Khosa. He was posted as Patwari at Kukroosa. Ahad war came to console Pandits. Shridhar’s mother belonged to Chogal. Pandits now feared for their lives. They proposed to War that Pandits will embrace Islam. Ahad war understood that it was the fear which was speaking. He replied, “the situation will not remain like this. It is not acceptable to me that you will embrace Islam.” Pandits had, however, taken a decision and next morning called Abdullah Pir, Imam of the mosque to complete the formalities. A section of chogal Muslims did feel happy at conversions and decided to have an inter-dining session with Pandits to complete the conversion. When this decision was conveyed to Ahad war, he burst upon them and shouted, “scoundrels! Pandits will not become Muslims. Even if they become Muslims and anarchy continues to prevail, for three years they cannot share food with us”. Earlier also War had protested, when he refused to join Chogal villagers at the conversion ceremony. Instant Justice: Devmol, a widow had kept in her headgear cloth her meagre savings and put it in a trunk. During the turmoil she had managed to send it to her neighbour, Rasool Ahanger’s house for safe custody.  When normality returned, she asked him to hand over the trunk. Rasool sent back the trunk but the bag containing money was missing. Devmal went to Ahad war to seek his intervention. Ahad called Rasool Ahangar. Entire village assembled. War asked Ahangar to return the money. The latter swore that he had not taken the money. Ahad war got a big stick, (Danda Muhr) and thrashed him severely. Ahangar remained unmoved. War then stripped him naked, leaving him only in underwear (Langoti). He then put a white sheet over Ahangar’s shoulders and bit him. Ahangar did not budge. Then war asked people to get a sickle. He put it in fire. When it turned red hot, war ordered Ahangar to take out his langoti. War brought hot sickle  near his private parts. At this point, Rasool Ahangar broke down. He begged mercy and accepted the guilt. Ahangar told war, ‘Sir, please leave me now. I have committed  the theft. I will see and get whatever money is left.”. Ahangar’s wife was also there. War put sickle in fire again and shouted, “you are not coming out. Tell your wife where have you hidden the money”. Rasool Ahangar asked his wife to hand, over the money to Devmal. Pandits Property: Ahad war commanded awe and respect from his people. They called him Baab, the benign father. During February raid, when Chogal came under the frequent occupation of Pak army, Ahad War felt he may not be able to save Pandits. He arranged two big boats, behats for them at his own cost. As Pandits left, War put up a camp in Pandit Mohalla. War and 4-5 of his men would guard Pandit property day and night and look after their cattle. After some time, War sent a message to Pandits that they should send person from each family to look after their  cattle Sarvanand recalls, “when we reached home we saw Ahad war had put up his camp in our mohalla. He had shifted his bedding  also and would guard our houses day and night. War also looked after our cattle.”. In 1990, Chogal behaved differently because there was no Ahad war. Out of 20 Pandit houses, nineteen were put on fire by locals in September 1993. Shambnoo Nath’s house, which escaped fire stands denuded of its timber and Iron sheets forming its roof. The new dispensation which took over in Kashmir in 1947 never honoured people like Ahad war. The day Kashmiris decide to raise a memorial for Ahad war, Kashmir Pandits return to their homes and hearths can become possible. (The writer is Gen. Secretary, Panun Kashmir) Source: Kashmir Sentinel From sub_sengupta at yahoo.co.in Tue Jun 2 10:05:28 2009 From: sub_sengupta at yahoo.co.in (subhrodip sengupta) Date: Tue, 2 Jun 2009 10:05:28 +0530 (IST) Subject: [Reader-list] Fw: Paper Creases by Simon Shubert Message-ID: <192275.88254.qm@web94711.mail.in2.yahoo.com> ----- Forwarded Message ---- From: subhrodip sengupta To: reader-list-request at sarai.net Sent: Tuesday, 2 June, 2009 10:04:44 AM Subject: Paper Creases by Simon Shubert Simon Shubert uses blank pieces of paper and creases them to create images. He even does portraits and all the reflections in the mirrors. Check them out inside. Incase you cannot get the pictures below, click on the link http://180782.rediffiland.com/scripts/xanadu_diary_view.php?blogId=1219400125&postId=1243915367                                                                                                   Share and Enjoy, ________________________________ Explore and discover exciting holidays and getaways with Yahoo! India Travel Click here! Share files, take polls, and make new friends - all under one roof. Go to http://in.promos.yahoo.com/groups/ From chandni.parekh at gmail.com Tue Jun 2 11:05:51 2009 From: chandni.parekh at gmail.com (Chandni Parekh) Date: Tue, 2 Jun 2009 11:05:51 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Hand Folded APPEAL - Save a young life.. In-Reply-To: <6353c690906011306m48a39248sd7dbbffa19a9663a@mail.gmail.com> References: <6353c690906011305t276e7a87ka91d577b57dcb470@mail.gmail.com> <6353c690906011306m48a39248sd7dbbffa19a9663a@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: Hi Aditya, I've circulated your appeal on my Twitter site (for fund raising and giving): *FundACause * Appeal for funds (Rs 1 crore) for a bone marrow transplantation in Bangalore is here: http://ow.ly/axLo - Chandni 2009/6/2 Aditya Raj Kaul > friends.. > > a close relative is in bad shape.. Abhishek Sinha from Bangalore, a young > friend is suffering from Bi-phenothypic Leukemia (BAL), a type of blood > cancer. ...... From kauladityaraj at gmail.com Tue Jun 2 13:23:49 2009 From: kauladityaraj at gmail.com (Aditya Raj Kaul) Date: Tue, 2 Jun 2009 13:23:49 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Details - Abhishek Sinha - Save a young life.. In-Reply-To: <6353c690906020052w4e055ca7m77aeb661ce9ff956@mail.gmail.com> References: <6353c690906020052w4e055ca7m77aeb661ce9ff956@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <6353c690906020053lf6e47b6l79fffa0c0ae74564@mail.gmail.com> Hope this can be circulated widely. ---------- Forwarded message ---------- From: Aarti Irani Date: Tue, Jun 2, 2009 at 12:49 PM Subject: Details To: Aditya Raj Kaul Dear Adi, Thanks for all the help and support. I really appreciate it. Pls thank all your friends and family on my behalf. Below is the info you need. Let me know in case any further details are required. *APPEAL* Hi All, I'm asking for five minutes of your time. There is a young boy in Bangalore who also happens to be my brother-in law, who has been struck down at the age of 30 with a particularly vicious form of leukemia. To put it bluntly, he's going to die if he doesn't get a bone marrow transplant. It's going to cost a tons of money, most of which he doesn't have. The great thing is though that his friends have figured out that if 7000 people give Rs.1000/20 USD each, the target can be achieved. It's this math that makes it so doable. We all know that this amount is a fun lunch for most of us and yet it's 20 dollars that can be far above its value if the target is achieved. Even if you don't feel like you can stretch yourself to yet another cause, that's fine, please just read it and send it on to someone you know who may want to help. But may I please just request you not to randomly send it as a forward. Write a personal note. Even a line. It can make a difference. Thanks for reading. His name is Abhishek Sinha. And this is the site you need to go through to help him http://www.helpabhishek.com Looking forward to your contributions regards Aarti Raina How can YOU help? There are *Two Ways* in which you can help Abhishek: * A) By making contributions towards supporting his medical expenses for * getting the Bone Marrow Transplant done, And B) By registering yourself as Stem cell donor and pray for speedy recovery of Abhishek. *A)* * Make Personal Contributions in form of Monetary Donations towards Abhishek’s Medical expenses.* * You can make a donation through two options:** * * Option # 1 * * Donate Through Cancer Patient’s Aid Association (CPAA) Preferred option* Please *click at www.cpaaindia.org* to reach the site of CPA where the method to donate through their gateway is clearly mentioned. * This would be the preferred option as CPAA is a registered NGO and therefore all donations collected through them would be** tax exempted for both the donor and the receiver**.* * Option # 2* * Direct deposit in Abhishek’s Bank Account: * This option can be exercised through Electronic fund transfer or through cheques/DDs sent in favour of *Abhishek Sinha *, * HDFC Account No.: 4061000010701* * Cheques/DDs can also be sent at the following address:* Abhishek Sinha C/o Chitwan Singh A-318, Maple Block, Prestige Greenwoods, Nagawarapalya C.V. Raman Nagar *Bangalore- 560093, Phone No.: (080) 25077550* * B**) “Save a Life” register yourself for “Stem cell Donation”.* Please click on the highlighted cells for more information on “Stem Cell Donation”. Getting registered for *Stem cell donation * involves a very simple process, it is a painless, prickles and a bloodless process which does not take more than * “ONE MINIUTE”* of the Donors time It involves rubbing of cotton swabs (resembling ear buds) on the inner lines of your cheeks*( THE SWABS HAVE NO MEDICATION ON THEM*) so as to collect the cheek cells on the swabs. These swabs are then sent to United States (US) for the HLA typing OF THE donor. If the HLA typing matches with any patient across the world, the donor will be contacted for his Stem cell donation. We will be helping *Datri Foundation * to organize “Stem Cell registry” camps across various cities in India, information on the camps being organized will be provided to you through updates on this site. * Medical History* Abhishek has Bi-phenotypic Acute Leukemia(BAL), a type of Blood Cancer. He requires a matched unrelated donar bone marrow transplantation (MUD) Let me know if u need his reports as well. -- Aditya Raj Kaul From sub_sengupta at yahoo.co.in Tue Jun 2 13:41:02 2009 From: sub_sengupta at yahoo.co.in (subhrodip sengupta) Date: Tue, 2 Jun 2009 13:41:02 +0530 (IST) Subject: [Reader-list] Fw: [re:] MNIC: Thanks for bringing a spectre! Message-ID: <66515.13679.qm@web94713.mail.in2.yahoo.com> ----- Forwarded Message ---- From: subhrodip sengupta To: Taha Mehmood <2tahamehmood at googlemail.com> Sent: Tuesday, 2 June, 2009 1:08:04 PM Subject: [re:] MNIC: Thanks for bringing a spectre! Tahaji,          Actually people here are out to attack each other for no reason. About questions and answers.  Well nobody here claimed to be a policy maker or even an acitvist. But one must agree that repeated mailing Spams, not a comment on anybody, again! I believe people here are sensible and do register point once and as far as retention is concerned, and their mailboxes can store mails. Why do you feel frustrated if someone asks what to do next? Going on harping the same discontment again and again amounts to trying to justify the tyranny of nation state in degree, and is some extent frustrating. Thats what I've said. What I did not care to add is that people on this list have pre-concieved notion. You and I might be aware that use of the word 'conform' is not democratic but a leftist at least a revolutionary propaganda, conform to what? Arre, who says spectres do not exist, can you falsify their existance more than u can mine? America's most wanted person, BIN LADEN is a spectre, after all. Was having a bad time  ever since the frequency and variety of posting declined, albeit, the variety was widened b4 it went down with frequency of mails. Well, I have resorted to blogging, that lets us Hello each other and gives freedom which a mailing list can not afford! Hota hain, Hota hain! But less lasting than Great Indian recession.  Yeh sarkar strong hain, matlaab moti chamri se banaya hui hain, Moti matlaab impermiable. Ask questions and they will show all wastage as R&D costs. If we cannot admit our flaws, how can the politicians. Hopefully ther is another way round. The corruption, and issuance of false ID's. Again there has always been a RAW under the cabinet secretariat not subject to suditing. So this doesn't work either. What about the identity alloted by some agency,as well as personal identity? How does identity involve new rights as well. Shall the government be able to resist such prsssures?IN this list we expres our concerns, our views, and off course our studies and endeavours. I found repeated mailing a bad thing and u objected to my frustrating comments. Both are distinct stands, as the stand on issuance of MNIC and stand on terrorism, a convergance is always for a purpose. Subhrodip.       ________________________________ From: Taha Mehmood <2tahamehmood at googlemail.com> To: Kshmendra Kaul Cc: Sarai Reader-list ; Jeebesh Sent: Sunday, 31 May, 2009 5:45:21 PM Subject: Re: [Reader-list] News Items posted on the net on Multipurpose National Identity Cards-118 Just wondering... 1. Why there seems to be a sense of outrage on this list whenever, someone questions or criticizes but do not provide any alternatives, solutions or answers? The underlying assumption seems to be that only those who know the answer must question or could question?? Where is it written that responsibility of providing answers must lie with the questioner? and more importantly I would like to know of any instances or institutions where such a practice is routine? 2. Why there seems to be a sense that repeated questioning about something does not serve any useful purpose? or could be dangerous...Are we persuaded to confirm??? 3. There seems to be a prevalence of childlike enthusiasm on behalf of list members to act as policy makers with delusions of real power and authority that not only one should not question if one does not know an answer but one must also know the exact manner in which such an answer, if known, could be framed and implemented. Do we have a situation of conflicting roles on this list or what??? Are we not trying to act here merely in the capacity of  informed citizens, whose role is to just question and debate without bothering too much for any real, practical, pragmatic, feasible answers??? Arre bhai we do not know an answer, that is why we question, no??? _________________________________________ reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. Critiques & Collaborations To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with subscribe in the subject header. To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> ________________________________ Explore and discover exciting holidays and getaways with Yahoo! India Travel Click here! Explore and discover exciting holidays and getaways with Yahoo! India Travel http://in.travel.yahoo.com/ From sub_sengupta at yahoo.co.in Tue Jun 2 13:51:33 2009 From: sub_sengupta at yahoo.co.in (subhrodip sengupta) Date: Tue, 2 Jun 2009 13:51:33 +0530 (IST) Subject: [Reader-list] Does Kasab Deserve any trial? Message-ID: <10110.24317.qm@web94716.mail.in2.yahoo.com> A kind-a report on the newspaper. Regards special treatment given to kasab by Judiciary and State of Maharashtra, which pre-elections remained silent tolerator of MNS. Supreme court itself has passed some negative comments on Kasab's right etc. The stand-point of TOI is clear from the heading. He is a terrorist. What should we do to him? I do find no personal agrresion against him though. Do know about others................. By the way this case the way police was appointed the defences used earlier, and the pivot role of the Media(defended by Indian Parliament) was a cherished lesson to all of us, at least whose life would be blant if nobody was worse off and needed our help. By the way can anybody give an idea about Abbas Kazmi, and why is he being paid Rs 2500 per day? I mean the amount is fine.................................................. There are also hints about raising the payment to state provided lawyer, but thats off course another pressing topic, needing awareness. Kasab's lawyer to be paid Rs 2500 per day 2 Jun 2009, 1230 hrs IST, PTI  Print   Email   Discuss  Share  Save  Comment Text: MUMBAI: Senior lawyer Abbas Kazmi, who is representing prime accused in the 26/11 terror attack case Mohammed Azmal Amir Kasab, will get Rs 2,500 per day as remuneration from the Maharashtra government. The case is heard five days -- Monday to Friday -- every week, entitling Kazmi to Rs 12,500 per week or Rs 50,000 per month as fees for defending Kasab, officials sources said. As per the law, if an accused is unable to find a lawyer the court appoints one from state's legal aid cell. The court appointed advocate is paid a paltry sum of Rs 900 for the entire case. Therefore, very few come forward to represent an accused. However, looking into the sensitive nature of this case, a special court appointed Kazmi to defend Kasab and requested Maharashtra government to pay him a reasonable amount as remuneration. Judge M L Tahaliyani had clarified in his order that the remuneration to Kasab's lawyer will be decided by state as a special case and it will not serve as precedent for others to follow. Explore and discover exciting holidays and getaways with Yahoo! India Travel http://in.travel.yahoo.com/ From sub_sengupta at yahoo.co.in Tue Jun 2 14:04:51 2009 From: sub_sengupta at yahoo.co.in (subhrodip sengupta) Date: Tue, 2 Jun 2009 14:04:51 +0530 (IST) Subject: [Reader-list] Does Kasab Deserve any trial? In-Reply-To: <237226.71631.qm@web57208.mail.re3.yahoo.com> References: <237226.71631.qm@web57208.mail.re3.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <15121.52469.qm@web94706.mail.in2.yahoo.com> Nice indeed, Sir actually somebody pointed out that leaving NSA and technical stuf about onus of proof, Kasab is an accused, not proven guilty of what crimes he has committed. And that he has become a pak-slap thing, an aide of state, I can not immagine gallows for him in near future, though after that, once govt is stable, what is his stake is really unknown!Have any idea if the court sessions are in public or private in his case? Just wondering! A delicate issue in curving the mordern face of state, anti-terorism, terrorism etc. Quatorrachi,the Bofors Accused has finally been let from being extradiction by congress, fearing International Embarrassment. What a sabotage, Fine acting. ________________________________ From: Kshmendra Kaul To: Readers list Yousuf Sarai. ; subhrodip sengupta Sent: Tuesday, 2 June, 2009 1:55:56 PM Subject: Re: [Reader-list] Does Kasab Deserve any trial? Every accused deserve a trial with a competent Legal defense Kshmendra --- On Tue, 6/2/09, subhrodip sengupta wrote: From: subhrodip sengupta Subject: [Reader-list] Does Kasab Deserve any trial? To: "Readers list Yousuf Sarai." Date: Tuesday, June 2, 2009, 1:51 PM A kind-a report on the newspaper. Regards special treatment given to kasab by Judiciary and State of Maharashtra, which pre-elections remained silent tolerator of MNS. Supreme court itself has passed some negative comments on Kasab's right etc. The stand-point of TOI is clear from the heading. He is a terrorist. What should we do to him? I do find no personal agrresion against him though. Do know about others................. By the way this case the way police was appointed the defences used earlier, and the pivot role of the Media(defended by Indian Parliament) was a cherished lesson to all of us, at least whose life would be blant if nobody was worse off and needed our help. By the way can anybody give an idea about Abbas Kazmi, and why is he being paid Rs 2500 per day? I mean the amount is fine................................................... There are also hints about raising the payment to state provided lawyer, but thats off course another pressing topic, needing awareness. Kasab's lawyer to be paid Rs 2500 per day 2 Jun 2009, 1230 hrs IST, PTI   Print   Email   Discuss  Share  Save  Comment Text:    MUMBAI: Senior lawyer Abbas Kazmi, who is representing prime accused in the 26/11 terror attack case Mohammed Azmal Amir Kasab, will get Rs 2,500  per day as remuneration from the Maharashtra government. The case is heard five days -- Monday to Friday -- every week, entitling Kazmi to Rs 12,500 per week or Rs 50,000 per month as fees for defending Kasab, officials sources said. As per the law, if an accused is unable to find a lawyer the court appoints one from state's legal aid cell. The court appointed advocate is paid a paltry sum of Rs 900 for the entire case. Therefore, very few come forward to represent an accused. However, looking into the sensitive nature of this case, a special court appointed Kazmi to defend Kasab and requested Maharashtra government to pay him a reasonable amount as remuneration. Judge M L Tahaliyani had clarified in his order that the remuneration to Kasab's lawyer will be decided by state as a special case and it will not serve as precedent for others to follow.       Explore and discover exciting holidays and getaways with Yahoo! India Travel http://in.travel.yahoo.com/ _________________________________________ reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. Critiques & Collaborations To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with subscribe in the subject header. To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> Bollywood news, movie reviews, film trailers and more! Go to http://in.movies.yahoo.com/ From aprajitasarcar at gmail.com Tue Jun 2 14:30:35 2009 From: aprajitasarcar at gmail.com (Aprajita Sarcar) Date: Tue, 2 Jun 2009 02:00:35 -0700 Subject: [Reader-list] Remembering Tiananmen In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Hello Tibetans and Tibet supporters are getting ready to remember the Tiananmen Square massacre. In Delhi, this will also mark the celebration of an endangered democracy. Ever since the city was brought to a standstill around the time of the Olympics Torch relay, we feel that Remembering the Tiananmen Square incident is more to do with how we are entrenching democracy today, within China and outside. Another thing is to encourage people to to wear somehting WHITE that day as a part of the campign advocated by a Tiananmen veterant Wang Dan who is leading such a protets rally in Washington DC (See AFP news report: http://tinyurl.com/afp-white-china-21may09). This is a moment to stand for freedom, democracy and justice, not just for the Chinese, but Tibetans, Burmese, Indians, Bangladeshis, Mongolians, Manchurians, Pakistanis and Uighurs. His Holiness the Dalai Lama's people-to-people relation building is a strategy, of sorts, to create people power to bring freedom and democracy in China and in extention to Tibet. Seeing the People's Republic of China's engagements with other occupied countries and also other countries whose freedom and democracy has been bought (read compromised) by China's business interests, many members of civil society will be remembering June 4 this year, as a metaphor of the dissent which is fast growing enadagered in today's world. We have been commemorating Tiananmen since 2002 in Dharamsala, where besides a public gathering of about 3 to 4 hundred people we have small speeches made and do a candle light vigil and the main attraction is the film screening where we screen the famed documnetary ''Tiananmen: The Gate to Heavenly Peace''. We make reports of this with photos and sent it to many chinese activist for freedom and democracy including Human Rights in China, Free China Network, China support network, and now there are a whole lot on Facebook also. This is a seeking help mail, please suggest active people and organization you have been working with. This could also be Delhi's call for freedom and justice as we call on more indian participation, NGOs to endorse this call and also physically by being there at jantar mantar. there would be - a joint press statement. - candle light vigil - short speeches made by representatives - film screening *Time: 4.30pm* *Venue: Jantar Mantar* *Date: June 4th, 2009* -- . . . . . Friends of Tibet, PO Box: 16674, Bombay 400050, India. . . . . . Friends of Tibet is a people’s movement to keep alive the issue of Tibet through direct action. Our activities are aimed at ending China’s occupation of Tibet and the suffering of the Tibetan people. Friends of Tibet supports the continued struggle of the Tibetan people for independence. To know more, visit: www.friendsoftibet.org . . . . . From kshmendra2005 at yahoo.com Tue Jun 2 14:30:54 2009 From: kshmendra2005 at yahoo.com (Kshmendra Kaul) Date: Tue, 2 Jun 2009 02:00:54 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Reader-list] Does Kasab Deserve any trial? Message-ID: <231893.11844.qm@web57202.mail.re3.yahoo.com> Dear Subhrodip   Court proceedings of Kasab's trial are being reported in the Media. I guess that makes it 'public'. Remember reading a report that over 300 'security passes' allowing presence inside the Court were issued to Indian and foreign Media.   Gallows? Well I personally am totally against the Death Penalty whatever the crime may be. But then, I do not make the Laws.   Kshmendra    --- On Tue, 6/2/09, subhrodip sengupta wrote: From: subhrodip sengupta Subject: Re: [Reader-list] Does Kasab Deserve any trial? To: "Kshmendra Kaul" Cc: "Readers list Yousuf Sarai." Date: Tuesday, June 2, 2009, 2:04 PM Nice indeed, Sir actually somebody pointed out that leaving NSA and technical stuf about onus of proof, Kasab is an accused, not proven guilty of what crimes he has committed. And that he has become a pak-slap thing, an aide of state, I can not immagine gallows for him in near future, though after that, once govt is stable, what is his stake is really unknown!Have any idea if the court sessions are in public or private in his case? Just wondering! A delicate issue in curving the mordern face of state, anti-terorism, terrorism etc. Quatorrachi,the Bofors Accused has finally been let from being extradiction by congress, fearing International Embarrassment. What a sabotage, Fine acting. From: Kshmendra Kaul To: Readers list Yousuf Sarai. ; subhrodip sengupta Sent: Tuesday, 2 June, 2009 1:55:56 PM Subject: Re: [Reader-list] Does Kasab Deserve any trial?   Every accused deserve a trial with a competent Legal defense   Kshmendra --- On Tue, 6/2/09, subhrodip sengupta wrote: From: subhrodip sengupta Subject: [Reader-list] Does Kasab Deserve any trial? To: "Readers list Yousuf Sarai." Date: Tuesday, June 2, 2009, 1:51 PM A kind-a report on the newspaper. Regards special treatment given to kasab by Judiciary and State of Maharashtra, which pre-elections remained silent tolerator of MNS. Supreme court itself has passed some negative comments on Kasab's right etc. The stand-point of TOI is clear from the heading. He is a terrorist. What should we do to him? I do find no personal agrresion against him though. Do know about others................. By the way this case the way police was appointed the defences used earlier, and the pivot role of the Media(defended by Indian Parliament) was a cherished lesson to all of us, at least whose life would be blant if nobody was worse off and needed our help. By the way can anybody give an idea about Abbas Kazmi, and why is he being paid Rs 2500 per day? I mean the amount is fine................................................... There are also hints about raising the payment to state provided lawyer, but thats off course another pressing topic, needing awareness. Kasab's lawyer to be paid Rs 2500 per day 2 Jun 2009, 1230 hrs IST, PTI   Print   Email   Discuss  Share  Save  Comment Text:    MUMBAI: Senior lawyer Abbas Kazmi, who is representing prime accused in the 26/11 terror attack case Mohammed Azmal Amir Kasab, will get Rs 2,500  per day as remuneration from the Maharashtra government. The case is heard five days -- Monday to Friday -- every week, entitling Kazmi to Rs 12,500 per week or Rs 50,000 per month as fees for defending Kasab, officials sources said. As per the law, if an accused is unable to find a lawyer the court appoints one from state's legal aid cell. The court appointed advocate is paid a paltry sum of Rs 900 for the entire case. Therefore, very few come forward to represent an accused. However, looking into the sensitive nature of this case, a special court appointed Kazmi to defend Kasab and requested Maharashtra government to pay him a reasonable amount as remuneration. Judge M L Tahaliyani had clarified in his order that the remuneration to Kasab's lawyer will be decided by state as a special case and it will not serve as precedent for others to follow.       Explore and discover exciting holidays and getaways with Yahoo! India Travel http://in.travel.yahoo.com/ _________________________________________ reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. Critiques & Collaborations To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with subscribe in the subject header. To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> Explore and discover exciting holidays and getaways with Yahoo! India Travel Click here! From kshmendra2005 at yahoo.com Tue Jun 2 13:55:56 2009 From: kshmendra2005 at yahoo.com (Kshmendra Kaul) Date: Tue, 2 Jun 2009 01:25:56 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Reader-list] Does Kasab Deserve any trial? Message-ID: <237226.71631.qm@web57208.mail.re3.yahoo.com>   Every accused deserve a trial with a competent Legal defense   Kshmendra --- On Tue, 6/2/09, subhrodip sengupta wrote: From: subhrodip sengupta Subject: [Reader-list] Does Kasab Deserve any trial? To: "Readers list Yousuf Sarai." Date: Tuesday, June 2, 2009, 1:51 PM A kind-a report on the newspaper. Regards special treatment given to kasab by Judiciary and State of Maharashtra, which pre-elections remained silent tolerator of MNS. Supreme court itself has passed some negative comments on Kasab's right etc. The stand-point of TOI is clear from the heading. He is a terrorist. What should we do to him? I do find no personal agrresion against him though. Do know about others................. By the way this case the way police was appointed the defences used earlier, and the pivot role of the Media(defended by Indian Parliament) was a cherished lesson to all of us, at least whose life would be blant if nobody was worse off and needed our help. By the way can anybody give an idea about Abbas Kazmi, and why is he being paid Rs 2500 per day? I mean the amount is fine.................................................. There are also hints about raising the payment to state provided lawyer, but thats off course another pressing topic, needing awareness. Kasab's lawyer to be paid Rs 2500 per day 2 Jun 2009, 1230 hrs IST, PTI   Print   Email   Discuss  Share  Save  Comment Text:    MUMBAI: Senior lawyer Abbas Kazmi, who is representing prime accused in the 26/11 terror attack case Mohammed Azmal Amir Kasab, will get Rs 2,500  per day as remuneration from the Maharashtra government. The case is heard five days -- Monday to Friday -- every week, entitling Kazmi to Rs 12,500 per week or Rs 50,000 per month as fees for defending Kasab, officials sources said. As per the law, if an accused is unable to find a lawyer the court appoints one from state's legal aid cell. The court appointed advocate is paid a paltry sum of Rs 900 for the entire case. Therefore, very few come forward to represent an accused. However, looking into the sensitive nature of this case, a special court appointed Kazmi to defend Kasab and requested Maharashtra government to pay him a reasonable amount as remuneration. Judge M L Tahaliyani had clarified in his order that the remuneration to Kasab's lawyer will be decided by state as a special case and it will not serve as precedent for others to follow.       Explore and discover exciting holidays and getaways with Yahoo! India Travel http://in.travel.yahoo.com/ _________________________________________ reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. Critiques & Collaborations To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with subscribe in the subject header. To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> From kshmendra2005 at yahoo.com Tue Jun 2 14:49:53 2009 From: kshmendra2005 at yahoo.com (Kshmendra Kaul) Date: Tue, 2 Jun 2009 02:19:53 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Reader-list] AHRC urges ... Pakistan to desist from using force under pretext of Taliban ... Message-ID: <559191.7641.qm@web57207.mail.re3.yahoo.com> EXTRACT : """" They are doing this under the pretext of eliminating the presence of the Taliban. The real purpose is to crush the struggle for freedom and the anti-Dam movement of the people of Diamar and Gilgit Baltistan. """""""       A Statement by the Asian Human Rights Commission   PAKISTAN: Government intends to use force against the people of Gilgit and Baltistan under the pretext of eliminating the Taliban   A recent announcement of the Pakistan Army and its intelligence agency (ISI) stated that the Taliban are taking shelter in the Gilgit and Baltistan areas. They are a disputed part of Jammu & Kashmir, according to the United Nation Commission on India and Pakistan (UNCIP) resolutions of 13th August, 1948, and of 5th January 1949. The announcement has created insecurity among two million people who are already denied development for 62 years since the creation of Pakistan.    The purpose of using the pretext of the presence of the Taliban in the area is to mislead USA and NATO forces who are involved in war on terror. They want to posit that the Taliban is a menace in the construction of the big dams and wish to occupy Gilgit and Baltistan themselves.   The Bhasha Diamar Mega Dam’s reservoir, located in Diamer, would submerge 110 kilometres of the Karakoram Highway and around 80,000 people would be displaced initially. After the extension of the Bhasha dam about 300,000 local indigenous people will be displaced and about a 200 kilometer area up to a Gilgit town will be submerged. This will destroy not only the oldest Buddhist civilization but other ancient civilizations as well.  Pakistan also has a plan to build a Mega dam in Skardu, Gigit district, which will lead to displacement of 200,000 aborigines. In height 650 feet, the Skardu Dam will submerge Skardu city along with its historical and sacred religious places and forts. It will also destroy large deposits of minerals together with ancient structures of all of Baltistan including, Kharmang, Shigar, Khapolu.  Historical parts of Rundo will vanish from our earth forever.    Furthermore, the government of Pakistan also intends to build a third Dam in Bonji (disputed Territory), on the river Indus. No consultation with the people of the area or stake holders has been forthcoming. This project will result in great losses affecting the environment, wild life, minerals including precious stones—estimated to be worth billions of dollars. Summarizing the displacement of various populations, it is estimated that 80,000 will be displaced by the Diamar Bhasha Dam, 300,000 from the Skardu dam and about 30,000 through the construction of the Bunji dam. These are all indigenous people of this land who will be displaced.    The population of Gilgit and Baltistan has never been assured that they will get royalties from the construction of the Bhasha-Diamer dam. It is expected that the reservoir will spread over an area of 7.3 million acres in Diamer, Northern areas of Jammu & Kashmir State would suffer inundation of about 32 villages. Another area of concern is a power house situated some kilometers away in North west frontier province (NWFP).  It is supposed to generate 4,500 megawatts of electricity. Given Pakistan’s step-motherly treatment towards the people of this disputed territory, the royalties from the dam would accrue to the NWFP province and not to the Gilgit Baltistan areas.  The power generating unit will be built in Bhasha in NWFP with the intention and the result of depriving the people of this disputed land of their rights.   Balawaristan National Front (BNF) appealed, on behalf of the 2 million people of Balawaristan (Pakistan Occupied Gilgit Baltistan) to the World Bank, IMF, Asian Development Bank and all the financial and donor agencies and countries including China.  BNF requests them not to provide funds, loans, aid, or technical assistance. And most importantly, that technology not is provided to Pakistan for the construction of Mega dams like Bhasha Diamar Dam, Bonji Dam, Hanzel Dam, Skardu Dam and Khapolu Baltistan dam all of which are on disputed lands. The BNF claims that occupying forces of Pakistan are trying to attack the area of Diamar surrounding the Bhasha Dam. They are doing this under the pretext of eliminating the presence of the Taliban. The real purpose is to crush the struggle for freedom and the anti-Dam movement of the people of Diamar and Gilgit Baltistan.   The Asian Human Rights Commission urges government of Pakistan to desist from using the force under the pretext of Taliban and making mega dams to deprive the indigenous people who are the inhabitants since thousands years. The government should also consult the people and stake holders on mega projects and must follow the resolutions of UNCIP. The government’s unilateral decision to make mega dams will be disastrous for the local people as several hundred thousand people will be rendered home less.   # # # About AHRC: The Asian Human Rights Commission is a regional non-governmental organisation monitoring and lobbying human rights issues in Asia. The Hong Kong-based group was founded in 1984. Posted on 2009-06-01   http://www.ahrchk.net/statements/mainfile.php/2009statements/2056/     From vibhaaurora at gmail.com Tue Jun 2 17:31:46 2009 From: vibhaaurora at gmail.com (Dr. Vibha Arora) Date: Tue, 2 Jun 2009 17:31:46 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] CFP_Democracy and Development in the Himalayas In-Reply-To: <10d6c6990906020500h6a42f870h87cd79dc4dddd539@mail.gmail.com> References: <10d6c6990906020500h6a42f870h87cd79dc4dddd539@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <10d6c6990906020501n7e073374i9ca0e72e7d7ea97e@mail.gmail.com> FYI: Call for Papers to an edited volume on Democracy and Development in the Himalayas Co-editors: Dr Vibha Arora (Indian Institute of Technology Delhi) and Prof. N.Jayaram (Tata Institute of Social Sciences, Mumbai) Geographically, the Himalayas extend from the modern nation states of Afghanistan and Pakistan in the west towards Nepal, Bhutan, parts of Bangladesh and the Tibet Autonomous region, and Myanamar/Burma in the east. In the middle of this vast mountainous expanse lie the Indian states of Himachal Pradesh, Jammu and Kashmir, Uttranchal, Sikkim, parts of West Bengal, together with the ‘historic seven sisters’ of Northeast India namely Assam, Mizoram, Manipur, Meghalaya, Arunachal Pradesh, Tripura and Nagaland. Political developments in the Himalayan expanse region deeply impact South Asia and it will be erroneous to dismiss them as a ‘borderland’ of insignificance. All ideas of ‘centre’ and ‘periphery’ are relative given the constant negotiations of boundaries and shifting borders and emergent conflicts within the states of the Indian Union and the other nation-states of this Himalayan region. There can be no ‘centre’ unless the border is territorially defined and secured. It goes without saying that insurgency and counter-insurgency, boundary conflicts, secessionism and ethnic-nationalism, terrorism, political movements, and factionalism dominate debates on Northern South Asia. The region has been the locus of intense political engagement in the post-colonial period with people forcefully expressing ‘democratic’ aspirations by employing a combination of and either civil protest, non-violent resistance and sometimes engaging in violent confrontations with the government and the power elites to demand cultural rights, citizenship rights, ethnic-territories, political autonomy, and participatory development. The culture and history of the various groups and the region as a whole intersects these political developments to uniquely give direction to their political expressions and democratic aspirations. The aim of this volume is to highlight ongoing political negotiations, understand the process of democratization, explain the shifting relationship between macro and micro perspectives, discuss the reworking of centre-periphery relations and acknowledge the strategic importance of the Himalayan region for South Asian studies, Sociology and Social Anthropology. Confirmed Contributors include: Gerard Toffin (CNRS Paris, France) Martin Gaenszle (University of Vienna, Austria) Renske Doorenspleet (University of Warwick) & Bal Gopal Shrestha (University of Leiden) Mona Bhan (DePauw University) Duncan McDuie-Ra (University of New South Wales, Australia) Saloni Gupta (University of London, England) Nayana Bibile (University of Berne, Switzerland) Nel Vandekerckhove (Ghent University, Belgium) Fiona McConnell (Univ of London) Vibha Arora (IIT Delhi) We are seeking 1-2 other papers focussing either on Pakistan, Afghanistan, Burma, or Bangladesh to complete this volume. Interested contributors should email abstracts of 250 words with name and affiliation to vibhaaurora at yahoo.com by 15th June 2009. Full papers need to be submitted by 1st July 2009. Many Thanks and looking forward to a good response Vibha Arora and N.Jayaram (co-editors) -- Vibha Arora, DPhil (Oxon) http://web.iitd.ac.in/~aurora/ Assistant Professor in Sociology Dept of Humanities and Social Sciences The Indian Institute of Technology, Hauz Khas, New Delhi 110016 INDIA aurora at hss.iitd.ac.in; vibhaaurora at yahoo.com From sub_sengupta at yahoo.co.in Tue Jun 2 17:38:35 2009 From: sub_sengupta at yahoo.co.in (subhrodip sengupta) Date: Tue, 2 Jun 2009 17:38:35 +0530 (IST) Subject: [Reader-list] Whats Going on in Australia? Message-ID: <293420.99633.qm@web94703.mail.in2.yahoo.com>  A few years ago the Australian Prime minister wanted wanted highly skilled labour from third world countries to deliberately enter and settle in the countries to improve the supply of skilled labour there. Indians have for many years settled in this British dominion for work, primalrily lured by higher land per head availability, large prairies and by the higher standards of living and thus, the better oppurtunity to emigrate on to the US. Where as there are strict regulations for getting a Residency Visa, only restricted to skilled workers, thanks to the growing business and technical schools, Indian students also enroll in this school in large numbers. IT seems a chunk of Aussies' Labour supply is met from abroad, on a multi-racial basis. Then whatever economic grieviences these elements might have, stunted growth oppurtunities due to higher cut-offs, lower wages, etc, picking on Indians seems unjustified. Even after the attack, seeing the statements, and the age composition of racist attackers, I found their main objective was to commiit crime based on racism propaganda, get famous and embarass the government. But on closely introspecting the statement by police commissioner, treating the blockade by students as a 'mob' and given 'all options' he hardly showed sympathy for students coming n a foreign land feeling insecure. Showed some ampount of Apartheid and discrimination by the government as well which might now be regretting the decision of admitting members of a third world country. May be growth did not rise as expected, and the authority seems to regrett that. Not only the actions of police but also the statement of police chief shows the conditions that Indians have to face for a better degree craze even after paying 18 to 25 L in cases. Racism to me is a way to call war on and single out enemies. If is related to culture, cultural differencesz as it is with colour of skin, height and other personal traits.  Thus Racist behaviour exists everywhere, At times positive behaviour for political support negates the negative side, but it exists. Example one might see in colleges how people from north east have usually a limited friend circle. Those who do not make friends usually attribute it to some immaginary trait or simply appearance. Not as if all of us are horny all the time, even when it comes to members of the same sex, but this kind of likes and dislikes continues based on Physical attributes.. Off course ingenious to this distrust is the feeling of drainage of resources and distrust to the foriegn object, disturbing the domestic cultural setup. I'd like to make another point, herein. Not that all Indians lack self respect,nor do they need to increase the number of laps to the dojo in a month. The other side of earning the so called population premium, we Indians loose a doctor an engineer etc every times we send them abroad. Approx 5-7 LAcs used to be  spent behind every IIT an by the government, similar amounts in manuy other colleges. Much more on Doctors. Australia is off course, an Investment hot spot and to retain financial inflows, obviously the government wanted to train and 'give a taste' to Indian Human Resources. Recession was on. OBviously Australia was not singled out if Uk was worst hit. Our Intelligentia is linked to Australia through Indian elements.Will then such an apathy have nice effects on Australian Government, would not it show a weak regime. Somehow at leastwhen it comes to Indians, the Imperial sealed Government always tries to protect than others the action of Police. THat is not the Issue. The way out is to sensitise and mix Indian culture in a way that they can not be singled out. The way out is to Employ citizen with Indian Origin in Police and ither offices to see that offenders do not get mercy from authorities. These elements have followed their counterparts   in the US and UK where people of Mixed skin have been specially targeted. Leaving biological social and economic prerogatives behind, there is a motive to Hurt. But this hides behind the Garb of a culture of show off of Power, which I would slap as INsensitivity, or Human backwardness in Values. These people themselves can only feel and study the stress and fear hormone in Indians. there must be a distinct culture associated. What is it? Who is the enemy. HOw does it behave. Teenagers are only a weapon.Yet I do not see the Indian government would put much pressure, even though Diaspora builds political capital, temples etc. Because these are taxi drivers, students, not doctors that the PMs should stand up for. I would look forward to introspect such culture, contrast it with ours. Why I have seen influential people in North india saying that NE girls take too much freedom. Or we have nothing better than looking at the Skin that circumferences the body. So do some Aussies at least, for it took an Indian protest, not a general protest. May be the weakness in mordern day Capitalist societies is erosion of sense of good and bad to such extent that any Value becomes adorable and one wonders where there is a safe heaven? Poeple will folow. Personality, vibes? From a set of TElevisions of the same brand, make and colour, how does one distinguish(taken from13B). beaten by police, insufficient police role http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/Oz-police-atrocities-caught-on-tape/videoshow/4604728.cms http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/Aus-18-Indians-detained-for-breaching-peace-rally/videoshow/4602463.cms house robbed and injured ny TEENAGERS! http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/Houses-of-assaulted-Indians-burgled-in-Australia/videoshow/4588649.cms Own a website.Get an unlimited package.Pay next to nothing.*Go to http://in.business.yahoo.com/ From sub_sengupta at yahoo.co.in Tue Jun 2 18:26:06 2009 From: sub_sengupta at yahoo.co.in (subhrodip sengupta) Date: Tue, 2 Jun 2009 18:26:06 +0530 (IST) Subject: [Reader-list] Fw: Whats Going on in Australia? Message-ID: <693164.28530.qm@web94708.mail.in2.yahoo.com>  I am a bit confused. It's not like Indians are powerless as a class. IF it were that they could be looked down upon, attacks would not be targeted to them as a class. It's just the opposite that's why sporadically here and there they are targeted by racist groups. True. But why is society tolerating it, and the government too, is the question. Abscence of first hand and field experience makes philosophy inconsistent. Sure. ----- Forwarded Message ---- From: subhrodip sengupta To: Readers list Yousuf Sarai. Sent: Tuesday, 2 June, 2009 5:38:35 PM Subject: Whats Going on in Australia?  A few years ago the Australian Prime minister wanted wanted highly skilled labour from third world countries to deliberately enter and settle in the countries to improve the supply of skilled labour there. Indians have for many years settled in this British dominion for work, primalrily lured by higher land per head availability, large prairies and by the higher standards of living and thus, the better oppurtunity to emigrate on to the US. Where as there are strict regulations for getting a Residency Visa, only restricted to skilled workers, thanks to the growing business and technical schools, Indian students also enroll in this school in large numbers. IT seems a chunk of Aussies' Labour supply is met from abroad, on a multi-racial basis. Then whatever economic grieviences these elements might have, stunted growth oppurtunities due to higher cut-offs, lower wages, etc, picking on Indians seems unjustified. Even after the attack, seeing the statements, and the age composition of racist attackers, I found their main objective was to commiit crime based on racism propaganda, get famous and embarass the government. But on closely introspecting the statement by police commissioner, treating the blockade by students as a 'mob' and given 'all options' he hardly showed sympathy for students coming n a foreign land feeling insecure.. Showed some ampount of Apartheid and discrimination by the government as well which might now be regretting the decision of admitting members of a third world country. May be growth did not rise as expected, and the authority seems to regrett that. Not only the actions of police but also the statement of police chief shows the conditions that Indians have to face for a better degree craze even after paying 18 to 25 L in cases. Racism to me is a way to call war on and single out enemies. If is related to culture, cultural differencesz as it is with colour of skin, height and other personal traits.  Thus Racist behaviour exists everywhere, At times positive behaviour for political support negates the negative side, but it exists. Example one might see in colleges how people from north east have usually a limited friend circle. Those who do not make friends usually attribute it to some immaginary trait or simply appearance. Not as if all of us are horny all the time, even when it comes to members of the same sex, but this kind of likes and dislikes continues based on Physical attributes.. Off course ingenious to this distrust is the feeling of drainage of resources and distrust to the foriegn object, disturbing the domestic cultural setup. I'd like to make another point, herein. Not that all Indians lack self respect,nor do they need to increase the number of laps to the dojo in a month. The other side of earning the so called population premium, we Indians loose a doctor an engineer etc every times we send them abroad. Approx 5-7 LAcs used to be  spent behind every IIT an by the government, similar amounts in manuy other colleges. Much more on Doctors. Australia is off course, an Investment hot spot and to retain financial inflows, obviously the government wanted to train and 'give a taste' to Indian Human Resources. Recession was on. OBviously Australia was not singled out if Uk was worst hit. Our Intelligentia is linked to Australia through Indian elements.Will then such an apathy have nice effects on Australian Government, would not it show a weak regime. Somehow at leastwhen it comes to Indians, the Imperial sealed Government always tries to protect than others the action of Police. THat is not the Issue. The way out is to sensitise and mix Indian culture in a way that they can not be singled out. The way out is to Employ citizen with Indian Origin in Police and ither offices to see that offenders do not get mercy from authorities. These elements have followed their counterparts   in the US and UK where people of Mixed skin have been specially targeted. Leaving biological social and economic prerogatives behind, there is a motive to Hurt. But this hides behind the Garb of a culture of show off of Power, which I would slap as INsensitivity, or Human backwardness in Values. These people themselves can only feel and study the stress and fear hormone in Indians. there must be a distinct culture associated. What is it? Who is the enemy. HOw does it behave. Teenagers are only a weapon.Yet I do not see the Indian government would put much pressure, even though Diaspora builds political capital, temples etc. Because these are taxi drivers, students, not doctors that the PMs should stand up for. I would look forward to introspect such culture, contrast it with ours. Why I have seen influential people in North india saying that NE girls take too much freedom. Or we have nothing better than looking at the Skin that circumferences the body. So do some Aussies at least, for it took an Indian protest, not a general protest. May be the weakness in mordern day Capitalist societies is erosion of sense of good and bad to such extent that any Value becomes adorable and one wonders where there is a safe heaven? Poeple will folow. Personality, vibes? From a set of TElevisions of the same brand, make and colour, how does one distinguish(taken from13B). beaten by police, insufficient police role http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/Oz-police-atrocities-caught-on-tape/videoshow/4604728.cms http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/Aus-18-Indians-detained-for-breaching-peace-rally/videoshow/4602463.cms house robbed and injured ny TEENAGERS! http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/Houses-of-assaulted-Indians-burgled-in-Australia/videoshow/4588649.cms ________________________________ Explore and discover exciting holidays and getaways with Yahoo! India Travel Click here! Explore and discover exciting holidays and getaways with Yahoo! India Travel http://in.travel.yahoo.com/ From kshmendra2005 at yahoo.com Tue Jun 2 19:15:00 2009 From: kshmendra2005 at yahoo.com (Kshmendra Kaul) Date: Tue, 2 Jun 2009 06:45:00 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Reader-list] Fw: Whats Going on in Australia? Message-ID: <460278.78926.qm@web57204.mail.re3.yahoo.com> Dear Subhrodip   Picking up from some comments already made by you.   Emigration into Australia of Skilled and/or Professional manpower from India is a subsidy being given to Australia by India since the Education and Training costs of such people (which would have been largely subsidised by India) comes for free to Australia which would otherwise have spent (again largely subsidised by the State) on the creation of such a workforce to go into gainful employment.   But I find another aspect more interesting, that of (reportedly) 90,000 Indian Students studying in Australia. Interesting and also a sad comment on India:   - At a conservative estimate, each student puts in US$ 15,000 every year into the Aussie economy. This is at the college-entry level and increases subsequently. Predominantly Education Costs and partly as Living Expenses. 90,000 Indian students means that Indians are injecting in at least 1.35 Billion US Dollars into Australia every year from which the Australian Economy benefits in general but the Australian Educational Institutions are the main beneficiaries.   - The sad comment on India is that (notionally) this US $1.35 billion, every year, could have created the finest of well appointed Educational Institutions in India.   This is Australia alone. If you add to this the Indian students studying in USA, Canada (and fewer numbers in Europe) you come to mind boggling sums of money that instead of creating and/or strengthening the Education Systems in India are going to institutions in other countries.   Kshmendra            --- On Tue, 6/2/09, subhrodip sengupta wrote: From: subhrodip sengupta Subject: [Reader-list] Fw: Whats Going on in Australia? To: "Readers list Yousuf Sarai." Date: Tuesday, June 2, 2009, 6:26 PM  I am a bit confused. It's not like Indians are powerless as a class. IF it were that they could be looked down upon, attacks would not be targeted to them as a class. It's just the opposite that's why sporadically here and there they are targeted by racist groups. True. But why is society tolerating it, and the government too, is the question. Abscence of first hand and field experience makes philosophy inconsistent. Sure. ----- Forwarded Message ---- From: subhrodip sengupta To: Readers list Yousuf Sarai. Sent: Tuesday, 2 June, 2009 5:38:35 PM Subject: Whats Going on in Australia?  A few years ago the Australian Prime minister wanted wanted highly skilled labour from third world countries to deliberately enter and settle in the countries to improve the supply of skilled labour there. Indians have for many years settled in this British dominion for work, primalrily lured by higher land per head availability, large prairies and by the higher standards of living and thus, the better oppurtunity to emigrate on to the US. Where as there are strict regulations for getting a Residency Visa, only restricted to skilled workers, thanks to the growing business and technical schools, Indian students also enroll in this school in large numbers. IT seems a chunk of Aussies' Labour supply is met from abroad, on a multi-racial basis. Then whatever economic grieviences these elements might have, stunted growth oppurtunities due to higher cut-offs, lower wages, etc, picking on Indians seems unjustified. Even after the attack, seeing the statements, and the age composition of racist attackers, I found their main objective was to commiit crime based on racism propaganda, get famous and embarass the government. But on closely introspecting the statement by police commissioner, treating the blockade by students as a 'mob' and given 'all options' he hardly showed sympathy for students coming n a foreign land feeling insecure.. Showed some ampount of Apartheid and discrimination by the government as well which might now be regretting the decision of admitting members of a third world country. May be growth did not rise as expected, and the authority seems to regrett that. Not only the actions of police but also the statement of police chief shows the conditions that Indians have to face for a better degree craze even after paying 18 to 25 L in cases. Racism to me is a way to call war on and single out enemies. If is related to culture, cultural differencesz as it is with colour of skin, height and other personal traits.  Thus Racist behaviour exists everywhere, At times positive behaviour for political support negates the negative side, but it exists. Example one might see in colleges how people from north east have usually a limited friend circle. Those who do not make friends usually attribute it to some immaginary trait or simply appearance. Not as if all of us are horny all the time, even when it comes to members of the same sex, but this kind of likes and dislikes continues based on Physical attributes.. Off course ingenious to this distrust is the feeling of drainage of resources and distrust to the foriegn object, disturbing the domestic cultural setup. I'd like to make another point, herein. Not that all Indians lack self respect,nor do they need to increase the number of laps to the dojo in a month. The other side of earning the so called population premium, we Indians loose a doctor an engineer etc every times we send them abroad. Approx 5-7 LAcs used to be  spent behind every IIT an by the government, similar amounts in manuy other colleges. Much more on Doctors. Australia is off course, an Investment hot spot and to retain financial inflows, obviously the government wanted to train and 'give a taste' to Indian Human Resources. Recession was on. OBviously Australia was not singled out if Uk was worst hit. Our Intelligentia is linked to Australia through Indian elements.Will then such an apathy have nice effects on Australian Government, would not it show a weak regime. Somehow at leastwhen it comes to Indians, the Imperial sealed Government always tries to protect than others the action of Police. THat is not the Issue. The way out is to sensitise and mix Indian culture in a way that they can not be singled out. The way out is to Employ citizen with Indian Origin in Police and ither offices to see that offenders do not get mercy from authorities. These elements have followed their counterparts   in the US and UK where people of Mixed skin have been specially targeted. Leaving biological social and economic prerogatives behind, there is a motive to Hurt. But this hides behind the Garb of a culture of show off of Power, which I would slap as INsensitivity, or Human backwardness in Values. These people themselves can only feel and study the stress and fear hormone in Indians. there must be a distinct culture associated. What is it? Who is the enemy. HOw does it behave. Teenagers are only a weapon.Yet I do not see the Indian government would put much pressure, even though Diaspora builds political capital, temples etc. Because these are taxi drivers, students, not doctors that the PMs should stand up for. I would look forward to introspect such culture, contrast it with ours. Why I have seen influential people in North india saying that NE girls take too much freedom. Or we have nothing better than looking at the Skin that circumferences the body. So do some Aussies at least, for it took an Indian protest, not a general protest. May be the weakness in mordern day Capitalist societies is erosion of sense of good and bad to such extent that any Value becomes adorable and one wonders where there is a safe heaven? Poeple will folow. Personality, vibes? From a set of TElevisions of the same brand, make and colour, how does one distinguish(taken from13B). beaten by police, insufficient police role http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/Oz-police-atrocities-caught-on-tape/videoshow/4604728.cms http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/Aus-18-Indians-detained-for-breaching-peace-rally/videoshow/4602463.cms house robbed and injured ny TEENAGERS! http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/Houses-of-assaulted-Indians-burgled-in-Australia/videoshow/4588649.cms ________________________________ Explore and discover exciting holidays and getaways with Yahoo! India Travel Click here!       Explore and discover exciting holidays and getaways with Yahoo! India Travel http://in.travel.yahoo.com/ _________________________________________ reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. Critiques & Collaborations To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with subscribe in the subject header. To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> From sub_sengupta at yahoo.co.in Tue Jun 2 19:27:34 2009 From: sub_sengupta at yahoo.co.in (subhrodip sengupta) Date: Tue, 2 Jun 2009 19:27:34 +0530 (IST) Subject: [Reader-list] Fw: Fw: Whats Going on in Australia? Message-ID: <453939.22928.qm@web94712.mail.in2.yahoo.com> ----- Forwarded Message ---- From: subhrodip sengupta To: Kshmendra Kaul Sent: Tuesday, 2 June, 2009 7:27:13 PM Subject: Re: [Reader-list] Fw: Whats Going on in Australia? Dear Kshmendra,                Interesting figures. Very Informative. Thank you. ________________________________ From: Kshmendra Kaul To: Readers list Yousuf Sarai. ; subhrodip sengupta Sent: Tuesday, 2 June, 2009 7:15:00 PM Subject: Re: [Reader-list] Fw: Whats Going on in Australia? Dear Subhrodip Picking up from some comments already made by you.. Emigration into Australia of Skilled and/or Professional manpower from India is a subsidy being given to Australia by India since the Education and Training costs of such people (which would have been largely subsidised by India) comes for free to Australia which would otherwise have spent (again largely subsidised by the State) on the creation of such a workforce to go into gainful employment. But I find another aspect more interesting, that of (reportedly) 90,000 Indian Students studying in Australia. Interesting and also a sad comment on India: - At a conservative estimate, each student puts in US$ 15,000 every year into the Aussie economy. This is at the college-entry level and increases subsequently. Predominantly Education Costs and partly as Living Expenses. 90,000 Indian students means that Indians are injecting in at least 1.35 Billion US Dollars into Australia every year from which the Australian Economy benefits in general but the Australian Educational Institutions are the main beneficiaries. - The sad comment on India is that (notionally) this US $1.35 billion, every year, could have created the finest of well appointed Educational Institutions in India. This is Australia alone. If you add to this the Indian students studying in USA, Canada (and fewer numbers in Europe) you come to mind boggling sums of money that instead of creating and/or strengthening the Education Systems in India are going to institutions in other countries. Kshmendra        --- On Tue, 6/2/09, subhrodip sengupta wrote: From: subhrodip sengupta Subject: [Reader-list] Fw: Whats Going on in Australia? To: "Readers list Yousuf Sarai." Date: Tuesday, June 2, 2009, 6:26 PM  I am a bit confused. It's not like Indians are powerless as a class. IF it were that they could be looked down upon, attacks would not be targeted to them as a class. It's just the opposite that's why sporadically here and there they are targeted by racist groups. True. But why is society tolerating it, and the government too, is the question. Abscence of first hand and field experience makes philosophy inconsistent. Sure. ----- Forwarded Message ---- From: subhrodip sengupta To: Readers list Yousuf Sarai. Sent: Tuesday, 2 June, 2009 5:38:35 PM Subject: Whats Going on in Australia?  A few years ago the Australian Prime minister wanted wanted highly skilled labour from third world countries to deliberately enter and settle in the countries to improve the supply of skilled labour there. Indians have for many years settled in this British dominion for work, primalrily lured by higher land per head availability, large prairies and by the higher standards of living and thus, the better oppurtunity to emigrate on to the US. Where as there are strict regulations for getting a Residency Visa, only restricted to skilled workers, thanks to the growing business and technical schools, Indian students also enroll in this school in large numbers. IT seems a chunk of Aussies' Labour supply is met from abroad, on a multi-racial basis. Then whatever economic grieviences these elements might have, stunted growth oppurtunities due to higher cut-offs, lower wages, etc, picking on Indians seems unjustified. Even after the attack, seeing the statements, and the age composition of racist attackers, I found their main objective was to commiit crime based on racism propaganda, get famous and embarass the government. But on closely introspecting the statement by police commissioner, treating the blockade by students as a 'mob' and given 'all options' he hardly showed sympathy for students coming n a foreign land feeling insecure.. Showed some ampount of Apartheid and discrimination by the government as well which might now be regretting the decision of admitting members of a third world country. May be growth did not rise as expected, and the authority seems to regrett that. Not only the actions of police but also the statement of police chief shows the conditions that Indians have to face for a better degree craze even after paying 18 to 25 L in cases. Racism to me is a way to call war on and single out enemies. If is related to culture, cultural differencesz as it is with colour of skin, height and other personal traits.  Thus Racist behaviour exists everywhere, At times positive behaviour for political support negates the negative side, but it exists. Example one might see in colleges how people from north east have usually a limited friend circle. Those who do not make friends usually attribute it to some immaginary trait or simply appearance. Not as if all of us are horny all the time, even when it comes to members of the same sex, but this kind of likes and dislikes continues based on Physical attributes.. Off course ingenious to this distrust is the feeling of drainage of resources and distrust to the foriegn object, disturbing the domestic cultural setup. I'd like to make another point, herein. Not that all Indians lack self respect,nor do they need to increase the number of laps to the dojo in a month. The other side of earning the so called population premium, we Indians loose a doctor an engineer etc every times we send them abroad. Approx 5-7 LAcs used to be  spent behind every IIT an by the government, similar amounts in manuy other colleges. Much more on Doctors. Australia is off course, an Investment hot spot and to retain financial inflows, obviously the government wanted to train and 'give a taste' to Indian Human Resources. Recession was on. OBviously Australia was not singled out if Uk was worst hit. Our Intelligentia is linked to Australia through Indian elements.Will then such an apathy have nice effects on Australian Government, would not it show a weak regime. Somehow at leastwhen it comes to Indians, the Imperial sealed Government always tries to protect than others the action of Police. THat is not the Issue.. The way out is to sensitise and mix Indian culture in a way that they can not be singled out. The way out is to Employ citizen with Indian Origin in Police and ither offices to see that offenders do not get mercy from authorities. These elements have followed their counterparts   in the US and UK where people of Mixed skin have been specially targeted. Leaving biological social and economic prerogatives behind, there is a motive to Hurt. But this hides behind the Garb of a culture of show off of Power, which I would slap as INsensitivity, or Human backwardness in Values. These people themselves can only feel and study the stress and fear hormone in Indians. there must be a distinct culture associated. What is it? Who is the enemy. HOw does it behave. Teenagers are only a weapon.Yet I do not see the Indian government would put much pressure, even though Diaspora builds political capital, temples etc. Because these are taxi drivers, students, not doctors that the PMs should stand up for. I would look forward to introspect such culture, contrast it with ours. Why I have seen influential people in North india saying that NE girls take too much freedom. Or we have nothing better than looking at the Skin that circumferences the body. So do some Aussies at least, for it took an Indian protest, not a general protest. May be the weakness in mordern day Capitalist societies is erosion of sense of good and bad to such extent that any Value becomes adorable and one wonders where there is a safe heaven? Poeple will folow. Personality, vibes? From a set of TElevisions of the same brand, make and colour, how does one distinguish(taken from13B). beaten by police, insufficient police role http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/Oz-police-atrocities-caught-on-tape/videoshow/4604728.cms http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/Aus-18-Indians-detained-for-breaching-peace-rally/videoshow/4602463.cms house robbed and injured ny TEENAGERS! http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/Houses-of-assaulted-Indians-burgled-in-Australia/videoshow/4588649.cms ________________________________ Explore and discover exciting holidays and getaways with Yahoo! India Travel Click here!       Explore and discover exciting holidays and getaways with Yahoo! India Travel http://in.travel.yahoo.com/ _________________________________________ reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. Critiques & Collaborations To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with subscribe in the subject header. To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> ________________________________ Bollywood news, movie reviews, film trailers and more! Click here. Bollywood news, movie reviews, film trailers and more! Go to http://in.movies.yahoo.com/ From sub_sengupta at yahoo.co.in Tue Jun 2 23:37:37 2009 From: sub_sengupta at yahoo.co.in (subhrodip sengupta) Date: Tue, 2 Jun 2009 23:37:37 +0530 (IST) Subject: [Reader-list] FW: Re: [re:] MNIC: Thanks for bringing a spectre! Message-ID: <249725.64851.qm@web94707.mail.in2.yahoo.com> Explore and discover exciting holidays and getaways with Yahoo! India Travel http://in.travel.yahoo.com/ From amrutes at u.washington.edu Wed Jun 3 00:42:46 2009 From: amrutes at u.washington.edu (SAREETA BIPIN AMRUTE) Date: Tue, 2 Jun 2009 12:12:46 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Reader-list] Fw: Whats Going on in Australia? In-Reply-To: <460278.78926.qm@web57204.mail.re3.yahoo.com> Message-ID: There is an interesting book about Indian IT workers in Australia, called 'Global Bodyshopping' by Xiang. His overall argument is somewhat 'culturalist', but he does point out that people try to find ways around the restrictive visa scheme by doing things like setting themselves up as 'consultants' (we all know what that entails), or moving to Australia a students and then taking short-term jobs (often through consulting firms) as software engineers. These and related practices might help explain the high number of students registered. There seem to be very fluid boundaries between IT work, schooling, and various kinds of temporary unemployment. Sarita From rakesh.rnbdj at gmail.com Wed Jun 3 08:33:39 2009 From: rakesh.rnbdj at gmail.com (Rakesh Iyer) Date: Wed, 3 Jun 2009 08:33:39 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Fw: Whats Going on in Australia? In-Reply-To: References: <460278.78926.qm@web57204.mail.re3.yahoo.com> Message-ID: Dear Subhrodip (and all) First of all really thanks for a quite good mail. This matter has a number of issues related to it. However, to begin with, one need not necessarily think of all such incidents as cases of racism. It may be so that Indians may have been considered vulnerable by a group of teenagers who indulge in high-cost activities like drinking and drugs. (And from what I have read, Australians can drink for long before becoming unconscious or uncontrolled on a general basis). And therefore they may have been attacked, of course along with being showered abuses on. So the first fact is that it's not just racism which is promoting attacks. Many Indian students on rediff and other sites are stating that the crimes are being committed first for money. Of course, the fact that the Australian police is not very helpful to the Indian students, the perception that Indians coming as students may then reside as permanent residents and finally the idea among some that looting Indians is very easy has certainly combined to give some rowdy Australians the courage to attack Indians. Secondly, while some rowdy teenagers may have indulged in such attacks, the reaction of the Australian society at large must also be considered here. As of now, I have not heard any section of the society (except the Legislature and Executive members) who have condemned the attacks. I give the benefit of the doubt to the Australians that their society has not been asked to comment on this issue. After all, if in India we can go around asking for views from citizens, why not from say Australia? That is the larger point. Because first of all we need to find whether the society at large supports such attacks or not. And also more importantly, we also need to find whether Indians are acceptable in the society or not. And if not, (not acceptable even among say a certain section of society), we need to find reasons for the same. The issue can't simply be a declaration by Australian police saying that 'we will provide adequate security to Indians'. If tomorrow, a group of Australians start a movement saying that 'Indians go away!', and that too peacefully, what will we do, especially if it's peaceful? After all, violence only does not mean racism. Racism can even be seen in speech and actions other than creating violence. The reasons must be found out as whether being cultural or behavioral. Of course both are in a way related. But then again there may be problems. For example, in Tamil Nadu itself, even say 30 years back, if somebody spoke Hindi, locals used to jeer or comment (if not attack). Today at least, that is not the case. So social mindsets can also change, and one has to look at this. Third. Last but not the least, for all the above to be considered, the first action has to be the safety of Indians. But this should be the first in a series of steps. And I think it's necessary to get this done first. It seems the Australian police is not helpful so this aspect has to be checked as well. At the same time, one can't just say that this is an internal matter of a state. Killing of any citizen is deplorable, so also attacks. One should be ashamed of these things and condemn them. Howsoever much I hate someone, I shouldn't indulge in violence against that someone. That is a basic human right. So in entirety, we have to stop attacks and look at sociological reasons before coming to conclusions. And of course, India is also racist, for here is practiced casteism which is equally worse when compared to racism. Regards Rakesh From elkamath at yahoo.com Wed Jun 3 09:41:40 2009 From: elkamath at yahoo.com (lalitha kamath) Date: Tue, 2 Jun 2009 21:11:40 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Reader-list] Cochabamba water warriors: From war to water management Message-ID: <461762.18375.qm@web53610.mail.re2.yahoo.com> Americas Program Report Cochabamba From War to Water Management Raúl Zibechi | May 28, 2009 Translated from: Cochabamba De la guerra a la gestión del agua Translated by: Esther Buddenhagen Email this page to a friend Give us your feedback Americas Program, Center for International Policy (CIP) americas.irc-online.org Through the water war of April, 2000, the poor of the city and countryside of Cochabamba succeeded in expelling the multinational corporation which tried to charge them for this most basic common good. Between 2003 and 2005, the poor of the entire country drove out the neoliberal model of water management. Now it is community management of water that is the unresolved challenge. The pavement ends too soon in the barrios in the southern part of Cochabamba. At only five kilometers from the center, one can barely make out an irregular layer on the broad avenues that the cars traverse with difficulty. When one looks in the direction of the hills which dominate a wide, treeless valley, one sees only dust blowing over the streets and irrigation channels changed into parched ditches through which at least a thread of water ought to run. Rows of houses appear climbing upward until they are lost to sight, nearly reaching the crest of the hills which is dominated by a very dry climate. We are in one of the most important barrios of the southern periphery, Villa Sebastián Pagador, or District 14, established 32 years ago by immigrants from Oruro. The southern zone, made up of six districts, includes half the city's population, some 250,000 inhabitants—the poorest inhabitants—who are the most affected by the inefficiency of the Municipal Potable Water and Sewer Service (SEMAPA). Villa Pagador or District 14* According to the Census of 2001, Villa Pagador has 21,764 inhabitants. However many are counted within their communities of origin instead of in Villa Pagador so an estimate of 55 or 60,000 inhabitants doesn't appear to be an exaggeration. The infant mortality rate is 24% higher than the average of the city of Cochabamba and twice as high as that of District 12, one of the richest districts. Fifty percent of the women have their children at home and only 43% give birth in a hospital. Forty-four percent of the inhabitants of the entire zone speak Quechua and 11% Aymara. In Villa Pagador, 45% work for themselves and only 36% are salaried. Almost 60% of women work in commerce, selling in the local markets, and 48% of men work in construction or industry. In 2001, only 15% had water piped into their houses while 77% bought it from water trucks. * "Carpeta de Datos de la Zona Sur de Cochabamba," CEDIB, 2004. The Bolivian state decided in its neoliberal period that only the rich and middle classes would have water; the essential service would therefore not reach the poor, in particular the immigrants of the last generation. To alleviate or even to possibly resolve this grave problem, neighbors in these communities decided to organize themselves, creating water committees, associations, and cooperatives, constructing distribution networks, storage tanks, and drilling the wells themselves using their scarce resources. In the neighborhoods of southern Cochabamba 120 water committees are functioning, plus some 150 more in the peripheries of the urban zone and an even greater number in rural areas. These organizations regulate the use of water according to the habits and customs of the communities. In the urban zone to the south, between 70% and 80% of the population is not served by the municipal water company. As such, the water committees supply almost 30% of the population and the remaining residents receive water from water trucks. There are hundreds of thousands of people organized solely around the water issue, while a multitude of territorial organizations exist. The celebrated "water war" can only be explained as the result of a community decision made by hundreds of thousands of people to defend a resource, a feat that was not created or administered by the state but rather by urban and rural communities themselves. In the city, the individuals that make up the community water systems come from many regions of the country, a mix of immigrant campesinos and relocated miners.1 "These two characteristics strongly contribute to the community organization around water," state two directors of the water movement.2 The immigrant campesinos contribute by sharing their Andean traditions of collective work run in shifts, known as the "ayni," while the miners bring their vast organizing experience in the labor unions of the mining industry. Each water system has an average of 200 families associated with it but some have no more than 30 or 40 users. The majority do not have legal status. The residents who have decided not to organize themselves, buy their water from water trucks which traverse the city all day charging excessive prices for water of dubious quality. Don Fabián Condori, a Life for the Community It's the middle of the afternoon on Saturday and the hot sun beats down, making the climb harder. We arrive with Boris at a small farm with adobe walls; we open the wooden door and a large open space with two small, tidy offices on the sides appears. We are in the Association of the Production and Administration of Water and Drainage (APAAS), the first water system of Cochabamba and one of the most consolidated. Don Fabián Condori receives us with a broad smile which deepens the lines which mark his face. "I'm 61 years old and I've spent 19 years in the water system. I was born in Oruro and I arrived in Sebastián Pagador 30 years ago when there were only 70 families. At the end of the 90s almost 80% of us were from Oruro, but now we have 60,000 inhabitants from every corner of the country, above all from the Andes. I think people chose this place for its climate, its wealth, or for the good food and fruit." Fabián told his life story calmly, as if he were speaking of someone else, perhaps because he didn't think of himself as playing the lead role in the history he was recounting. In 1990 the city declared Sebastian Pagador, which at the time had only 5,000 inhabitants, a "red zone" because of its complete lack of water. "It was a desert," he said. "It still didn't have avenues, only roads that the people created with picks and shovels. There was an aqueduct for irrigation and near an irrigation ditch, some wells from which we fetched water for ourselves. In addition there were cisterns where water was sold." He said that the majority of his neighbors were manual laborers who worked for themselves, merchants, artisans, carpenters, tailors. "Like everyone else, I built my first house with adobe." In Villa Pagador the old people like Fabián still speak Quechua, listen to Andean music, and celebrate carnival in grand style, as they did in Oruro, with morenadas and diabladas and as many as 11 groups and 200 dancers, some of whom come from the interior of the department. "At the beginning, since there were few people, we managed with the irrigation channel and the little wells where water flowed. But by the 80s there were already more people and a little school with 25 students. The 3- and 4-year-olds played by bathing themselves with buckets of sand." It was then that the Committee to Promote Water was born in a meeting of 90 people. It was the first committee in Cochabamba. We began to design the excavation of a distribution network, because first we would build the network and then we would look for water." In 1990 they began breaking up land and digging ditches for the 390 families which are part of the water committee. "Every family paid one boliviano a month for explosives, tools, and rent for offices. They were their own source of funds. The work lasted three years. Every family had to dig six meters a month at a depth of a half meter. All this is rock, very hard, so we had to go very slowly." The design is very simple: the ditches come from every house and are connected at the center which in turn is connected with the pipe that leads from the well. "The whole community participated, and whoever didn't work was left without water. There was a person in control called the block chief to see how the work was going. We set our unqualified hands to the work. We were the machinery. When the pipes were laid, and a bed of sifted earth 30 centimeters deep was made so that any vibrations wouldn't damage the piping." During the three years that the work required, there were 105 meetings, one every 10 days." It was a hard fight, and we also fought among ourselves. The problem is that people didn't get rest. They came from their jobs to do this; every family had to provide 35 eight-hour days of work. Any family member could work, but it was mainly the women who worked. Everyone was had blisters and was very tired. Picks, shovels, wheelbarrows, sifting and compacting the dirt. It was a lot of work, a lot of work. I realized that women are the best workers." Only the dream of having water kept them going for all those months in precarious conditions in neighborhoods full of ditches. Fabián did not shy away from the internal problems of the committee. "There was a lot of fighting. The first year and a half, we made a lot of progress, but at the end of the second year we already had problems: we almost destroyed ourselves. Some of the directors worked, but others only watched. About half of the directors put their shoulder to the wheel." Wells and Pumps In two and a half years they finished digging the ditches and the laying the pipes, but nobody had thought about where the water would come from. They got project funding—which no other committee was able to obtain—from the World Bank to construct the water transport network, a large installation of pipes five kilometers long which climbed 400 meters up the mountain and continued to a well drilled seven kilometers from the neighborhood. "There we used dynamite and contracted miners because it is solid rock, and a pick and shovel would be useless. It took six months more work until we were done. And as soon as we finished, we asked where the water source was … No one had thought about that. There was a lot of community pressure on account of this." For weeks they consulted engineers and geologists who advised them on where to buy a plot of land, specifically, on the other side of the mountain where there were reserves of water. "We bought the land but we said it was for a warehouse, because they weren't going to allow us otherwise. We began to cut down the bushes, we went up there to work, and began to drill. At 98 meters water gushed out good and strong. But we were delayed another six months because other directors from other sectors turned up and brought the work to a standstill: they needed the water. We drilled two wells, one for us and the other for them because it was their land." The next step was to construct a 100 cubic meter storage tank at the top of the hill. The next obstacle was the pumps and the pipes. They had to change the pumps a number of times because they didn't hold up and then the pipes burst due to the pressure. "Fights broke out among us again because we couldn't decide what type of pump to use or the type of pipes: first PVC, then iron, finally galvanized." On Feb. 15, 1993 they inaugurated the first community water well in the whole city. "We opened the taps on the hill, but after three hours, nothing arrived. Everyone was waiting in the streets and no water. The people began to despair. Finally just when we were about to disperse, the water arrived, through a piping network which had burst. The problem had been a pipe in the network that had failed. But at least it was a sign that water would arrive. We fixed the problem, inaugurated the system, and had a huge fiesta." The ups and downs that Fabián describes were similar to those in more than a hundred water committees in the southern zone. In many cases people drilled wells in the same neighborhood but the water was salty and not suitable for consumption, or there was only a little water or it was used up. Almost all the committees have a tank. Those that don't have a well buy the water at the cisterns and fill the tank, and from the tank it goes to people's homes. It is an immense decentralized network constructed on the basis of reciprocity and mutual aid and administered in the same manner. As a university study indicates: "The self-management of the services and the infrastructure is seen by the neighbors as a reason for pride, as it should be, thus they don't want anything from the authorities."3 However, once the water has arrived, the problem of administration begins. Broadly speaking, two different situations exist: one strictly technical, related to the pumps and the maintenance of the network, and the other having to do with the price of electricity. The participation of the community neighbors diminishes considerably at this stage as well. Don Fabián recognizes that in the water committee of his barrio another stage began when the families had water in their homes. "We had courses on maintenance of the network, we wrote statutes, rules, we addressed the legal status, and we held seminars because there wasn't a single plumber; we didn't know anything. It was the first community water system of Cochabamba, the first experiment, the most complicated, but at the same time we were privileged because we had a loan." Today there are 612 families connected to the system and 200 others on a waiting list. Every family pays an average of 16 bolivianos (USD $2) a month to the organization. "But the first month the three people who worked on maintenance and pumping and the three in the administration weren't charged anything. At the beginning we didn't even have a treasury. Nothing, not one boliviano. It was a challenge to make this work without money. At the beginning we charged everyone the same, but everything we got was going to pay for the electricity for the pump. The workers only received 50 bolivianos each."4 Then at a meeting they created the rate structure and began to straighten out the expenses. Now they have only four assemblies a year. One of the major difficulties was the need to fight for a special rate for electricity because of the high cost to run the pumps. They succeeded. Fabián's APAAS dedicates a good portion of its time to supporting other water committees in maintaining and improving their pumps, a job they have become experts at. "Here there is a lot of social pressure, there are no secrets, everything is out in the open, every user knows everything that happens, everything is recorded. We have had a lot of experience. All this: the equipment, the pumping system, all that we did with the utilities. We are self-sustaining, including the purchase of three plots for the use of the barrio. We have worked together. Sure we fight, you have to because if we work we have to make observations, but all this criticism has to be accepted," concluded Don Fabián. The Return of the State In 2004 the Association of Community Water Systems of the South (ASICA-SUR) was created in the search for a single solution to the water problems of the southern zone. They counted on the support of SEMAPA at a time when the directors of the zone responded to the advice of the coordinator of the defense of water and life who played an important role in the "water war."5 They began with 40 committees, but now there are already 120. The organization has a governing body named directly by the assembly of the representatives of the community water systems. But its functioning depends on financing from an Italian NGO that has already lost contributions from its affiliates. The directors do not receive compensation.6 The main question that ASICA-SUR wanted answers for was, "After the water war, what?" The answer they were encountering was co-management as a new model of community-public management."7 The task is to look for a new model of management that would go beyond the big-state business, which turned out to be very difficult to manage and control, to a model which is supported by the community culture and its long experience in managing common goods. Broadly speaking, the proposal consists of establishing the co-management of the SEMAPA-ASICAS water systems "through a public entity, collective and communitarian, which is in charge of the joint administration of a collective community good such as water, where the two principle actors (SEMAPA and ASICA-SUR) would always be coordinated in their management of water and where each, furthermore, would have co-responsibilities for the service."8 So, the organization developed training workshops on administrative management of the water committees, accounting, management of the pumps, assembly and disassembly of things like electrical and mechanical components. Technicians were contracted for the workshops, and people could count on the support of the APAAS, directed by Don Fabián. Furthermore, there were close relations between the water systems of Santa Cruz and other cities where water committees and cooperatives also existed. There were also workshops on the care and use of water and skills for dealing with the energy company so that they would succeed in getting the company to allow them to modify the tariff structure and thus lower the costs for all of the committees. The major change happened with the arrival of Evo Morales's government in January of 2006. His government began to implement SEMAPA's old plans to grant water and sewage services to the southern zone along different lines. The water systems and ASICA-SUR had to face a new reality. The co-management scheme passed from words to action. The challenges grew and became much more complex. At this moment, there are three big water projects for the southern zone of Cochabamba. PROJECT BID (Interamerican Development Bank) has USD $8 million for the actualization and execution of a plan for water service expansion in parts of districts 6, 7, 8, and 14 in the southern zone, managed by SEMAPA. Another project, from the Agency for International Cooperation of Japan (JICA), is destined for some districts in the southern zone with SEMAPA in charge of its execution. Finally, the Program of Sector Support in Water Storage and Drainage (PASAAS) program is the result of an agreement between the government of Bolivia and the European Union which is undertaking projects for potable water and sewage for 22 community water systems in the southern zone with a donation of USD $4 million.9 The project is called "Improvement and Expansion of Potable Water Systems and Construction of Sewage Treatment in Districts 7, 8, 9, and 14 of the Southern Zone in the Community Water Systems pertaining to ASICA-SUR." The singular aspect of the PASAAS project is that the organization ASICA-SUR and the water committees are in charge of supervising the whole process of design, contracting, adjudication, and execution of the works. "The participation of the beneficiary population is realized through a Consulting Committee (made up of three representatives selected from the community), representatives of the water system, and directly through the community assemblies where different representatives report on information needed for making decisions later.10 Secondly, the work won't replace existing water systems, but rather will "improve and expand them," so that families who still don't have water will receive it. ASICA-SUR and the community water systems have become the main agents of management and project execution, coordinating institutions, community water systems, and construction companies. As a result, six supervisors have been contracted to oversee the work of seven companies, both in regard to the execution of the work and to the quality of construction materials. Finally, there are the training workshops for technical, administrative, public health, and environmental management of water services. The whole process is characterized by a number of facts: the construction company is obligated to contract preferentially with men and women who live in the areas where the works are being undertaken; the water committees have long experience which permits them to supervise companies which in the past were guilty of fraud and corruption; they continue creating new water committees. Already there are 150 in the southern zone, through which the core organization continues to build strength. The Difficult Creation of a New World The southern zone of Cochabamba is a cauldron of works, meetings, and assemblies from which channels, tanks, and collectors are conceived. For the first time in a long time, the State is beginning to bring to fruition basic works such as drainage systems and networks of potable water for domestic use. The absence of the State forced neighbors to organize themselves as a community to resolve their problems, among them the water supply. Now that the State has entered the picture, new debates arise. In 2003 the periodical Yaku al Sur raised interesting questions: "What will happen to our committees when SEMAPA receives the concession for our districts? Will our organization be terminated? Will we be able to influence the decisions of SEMAPA after that? Will we become individual and anonymous users of a municipal business? Or will we be able to preserve our organizations, and our decision-making and management abilities, abilities which we have demonstrated for years?"11 The questions point to the core of the problem: Who will have the power in the management of water? Already, almost 10 years have passed since the "water war" and the members of the community water systems have learned a lot based on their own long experience. We can establish three important lessons: 1. The communities were able to construct their whole water system, from the drilling of wells to the construction of connections and domestic networks. Moreover, they learned to maintain the pumps and the pipes in good condition and to repair them, and above all, to administer the whole network. 2. The communities began by fighting against the privatization of water, but they quickly understood that this wasn't about the traditional private-state debate. Equal footing in their long experience with the municipal business SEMAPA led them to formulate the proposal of a "public-communal" or "communitarian" model which in a certain sense is private (because it doesn't depend on the state but rather directly on the citizenry), but at the same time it is public (it doesn't pertain to an individual, but to the whole community.)"12 3. They learned that a large business, although it may be the property of the state (and not private), can't be controlled since it has an enormous bureaucracy with its own interests which are not compatible with those of the residents of poor communities. The history of SEMAPA is one of corruption and inefficiency, even when the water communities were able to name their own directors in the organization. For this reason, they don't want the power of the state to enter into water provision and they hope to maintain equal footing in the community water systems and perhaps, maintain their own power base. At this point great difficulties and uncertainties have appeared. ASICA-SUR has come out in favor of co-management, which would pass for the creation of a public, collective, and community entity which would give birth to a union of SEMAPA, ASICA-SUR, and the community water systems. The formula hasn't yet been designed, but monitoring the project PASAAS could contribute to its realization. On the other hand, the water committees are very clear that they should not be dissolved when the whole system is terminated, if that is the eventual result. Eduardo Yssa, vice president of ASICA-SUR and a member of the water committee PDA of Villa Sebastián Pagador, maintains that "when we all have piped water and drainage systems, the water committees should not disappear but should continue to act as control mechanisms." Furthermore, he believes that "the water tanks in each neighborhood ought to be maintained so that the committees have equal footing with outside organizations, because it would not be good if a mega-business like SEMAPA administered and managed everything."13 If the communities give up their storage tanks, their piping networks, and water wells, they would be dismantling everything they were able to construct over two decades. Moreover, they would be passing from a decentralized and dispersed service that is controlled at the grassroots level, to a centralized and concentrated system administered by a bureaucracy and technicians who will have real power over an indispensable community resource. Finally, hundreds of thousands of people have demonstrated that they themselves are capable of doing it, of creating something new from nothing, with their own efforts. For those who aspire to a new world, ("Another world is possible," the motto of the Social Forums) achievements such as those of the water committees will be decisive. This has to do with nothing less than the successful administration of common resources in an urban environment, something that many anti-system movements have had little experience with. Community water management efforts teach us that it is possible to manage things outside of the State and the great private and state businesses; these community efforts created a model which consists wholly of decentralized, horizontal initiatives: successful, sustainable, efficient, and without bureaucracies. In some way, the experiences of the committees and community water systems of Cochabamba anticipate, in an embryonic fashion, the design that this "other world," as necessary as it is possible, could have. End Notes 1. Refers to mine laborers who, after the 1985 closing or privatization of the mines they worked in, emigrated in search of new jobs. 2. Abraham Grandydier and Rosalio Tinta, ob cit p. 241. 3. Nelson Antequera Durán, ob cit p.78. 4. The Mar. 2009 exchange rate calculated one USD at seven bolivianos. 5. The water social movement was able to get a portion of the municipal company directors named in elections. 6. Grandydier and Tinta, ob cit. 7. Idem p.246. 8. Idem. 9. Bulletin Yaku al Sur No. 15, ASICA-SUR, 2008, p.4. 10. Bulletin Yaku al Sur No. 16, ASICA-SUR, Dec 2008, p.2. 11. Bulletin Yaku al Sur No. 2, Aug 2003, p.1. 12. Idem p.5. 13. Interview with Eduardo Yssa. Translated for the Americas Program by Esther Buddenhagen. Raúl Zibechi is an international analyst for Brecha of Montevideo, Uruguay, lecturer and researcher on social movements at the Multiversidad Franciscana de América Latina, and adviser to several social groups. He writes the monthly "Zibechi Report" for the Americas Program (www.americasprogram.org). To reprint this article, please contact americas at ciponline.org. The opinions expressed here are the author's and do not necessarily represent the views of the CIP Americas Program or the Center for International Policy. Sources Nelson Antequera Durán, "Dinámica organizativa en la zona sur de Cochabamba," in Villa Libre No. 2, CEDIB, Cochabamba, 2008. ASICA-SUR (Asociación de Sistemas Comunitarios de Agua del Sur): www.asica-sur.org. CEDIB (Centro de Documentación e Información de Bolivia), magazine Villa Libre No. 2, Cochabamba, 2008. Abraham Grandydier and Rosalio Tinta, "Experiencia de una asociación de sistemas de agua potable de la zona Sur del municipio de Cochabamba," in Apoyo a la gestión de comités de agua potable, Universidad Mayor de San Simón, 2006. Yaku al Sur, news bulletin from ASICA-SUR. Raúl Zibechi, interview with Fabio Condori Guzmán, director of APAAS, Cochabamba, Mar 28, 2009. Raúl Zibechi, interview with Eduardo Yssa, vice president of ASICA-SUR, Mar 28, 2009 _______________________________________________ Cross posted from Debate-list mailing list Debate-list at fahamu.org From newsletter at pavilionmagazine.org Tue Jun 2 21:21:40 2009 From: newsletter at pavilionmagazine.org (Pavilion) Date: Tue, 2 Jun 2009 18:51:40 +0300 Subject: [Reader-list] ARTIST - CURATOR TALK Kristoffer Ardena in dialogue with Razvan Ion Message-ID: <811c1c320cf36b33c10fc1a4d5c6b5a3@localhost.localdomain> ARTIST - CURATOR TALK Kristoffer Ardena in dialog cu Razvan Ion: CUM SA FACI IADUL UN LOC MAI BUN Joi, 4 iunie 2009, 19.00 Kristoffer Ardena leaga practica sa artistica de contextul cultural filipinez. Ardena propune o alternativa la perspectiva evolutiei istorice a artei occidentale pentru intelegerea propriei investigatii estetice. Produsul artistic care vorbeste despre iad ca o situatie instigatoare care genereaza cai creative. Conferinta va fi structurata in doua parti: proiecte realizate si proiecte viitoare. Artistul va proiecta extrase din lucrarile video recente. Ardena s-a nascut in Dumaguete (Filipine) in 1976. Lucreaza cu diferite medii (video, fotografie, obiecte, instalatii, desen, etc.). Locuieste si lucreaza in Oviedo si Madrid (Spania). A participat la diferite bienale, expozitii si proiecte, printre care si Bucharest Biennale 3. Razvan Ion (n. 1970) este teoretician, curator, manager cultural si activist politic. Este co-editor (impreuna cu Eugen Radescu) al revistei PAVILION, co-director al Bucharesti Biennale, iar in 2008 a fost numit director al PAVILION UNICREDIT- centrul pentru arta si cultura conemporana. A tinut prelegeri la University of California -Berkeley, Headlands Center for the Arts-California, Facultatea de Stiinte Politice - Cluj, Academia de Arte - Timișoara, La Casa Encedida - Madrid, Calouste Gulbenkian - Lisabona, etc. Scrie pentru diferite reviste si ziare. In prezent, lucreaza la proiectul curatorial "Exploring the Return of Repression". Traieste si lucreaza in Bucuresti. --- ARTIST - CURATOR TALK Kristoffer Ardena in live dialogue with Razvan Ion: HOW TO MAKE HELL A BETTER PLACE June 4, 2009, 19.00 Kristoffer Ardena links his artistic practice in conjunction with the Filipino cultural condition. Ardena proposes an alternative perspective to Western art historical evolution in understanding his aesthetic investigation. Art making that talks about hell as a an agitating situation that generates creative ways. The talk will be divided in two parts: realized projects and unrealized/future projects. The artist will also show excerpts of his recent video work. Ardena was born in Dumaguete (Philippines) in 1976. He works in various media (video, photography, objects, installations, drawing, etc.). He currently lives and works in Oviedo and Madrid (Spain). He has participated in various exhibitions and projects. He was part of the Bucharest Biennale in 2007. Razvan Ion is theoretician, curator, cultural manager and political activist. He is the co-editor (with Eugen Radescu), of the magazine PAVILION, co-director of Bucharest Biennale and in 2008 he was appointed as director of PAVILION UNICREDIT- center for contemporary art & culture. He lectured at University of California -Berkeley, Headlands Center for the Arts-California, Political Science Faculty - Cluj, Art Academy - Timisoara, La Casa Encedida - Madrid, Calouste Gulbenkian - Lisbon, etc. He write in different magazines and newspapers. Now he is working on the curatorial project "Exploring the Return of Repression". Lives and works in Bucharest. --- To unsubscribe click http://pavilionmagazine.org/phplist/?p=unsubscribe&uid=e338aa962978d4a63145054620e4b299 To forward this message click http://pavilionmagazine.org/phplist/?p=forward&uid=e338aa962978d4a63145054620e4b299&mid=89 From kshmendra2005 at yahoo.com Wed Jun 3 13:52:10 2009 From: kshmendra2005 at yahoo.com (Kshmendra Kaul) Date: Wed, 3 Jun 2009 01:22:10 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Reader-list] White Australia Policy Message-ID: <331788.3373.qm@web57205.mail.re3.yahoo.com> White Australia Policy A phrase used to describe the restrictive immigration policies of the colonial and Australian Governments from the 1850s until the 1970s that aimed to maintain a predominantly white population in Australia. The phrase first appeared in the 1880s and the 1901 Immigration Restriction Act soon became popularly known as the 'White Australia Policy'. The policy remained in force into the 1960s, when it was gradually dismantled. It was finally disbanded with the passing of the Commonwealth Racial Discrimination Act in 1975.   http://museumvictoria.com.au/origins/glossary.aspx?gid=35   From kshmendra2005 at yahoo.com Wed Jun 3 15:10:52 2009 From: kshmendra2005 at yahoo.com (Kshmendra Kaul) Date: Wed, 3 Jun 2009 02:40:52 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Reader-list] India accused of complicity in deaths of Sri Lankan Tamils Message-ID: <379834.41347.qm@web57205.mail.re3.yahoo.com> >From The Times June 1, 2009 "India accused of complicity in deaths of Sri Lankan Tamils" Jeremy Page, South Asia Correspondent   India was accused yesterday of complicity in the killing of an estimated 20,000 civilians in the last stages of Sri Lanka’s 26-year war against the Tamil Tigers.   Major-General Ashok Mehta, a former commander of Indian peacekeeping forces in Sri Lanka, said that India’s role was “distressing and disturbing”. Two international human rights groups said that India had failed to do enough to protect civilian lives.   “We were complicit in this last phase of the offensive when a great number of civilians were killed,” General Mehta, who is now retired, told The Times. “Having taken a decision to go along with the campaign, we went along with it all the way and ignored what was happening on the ground.”   Despite being home to 60 million Tamils, India has provided Sri Lanka with military equipment, training and intelligence over the past three years, diplomatic sources told The Times. More controversially, it provided unwavering diplomatic support and failed to use its influence to negotiate a ceasefire for civilians to escape the front line, they said.   India joined a bloc led by China and Russia at a special session of the UN Human Rights Council last week to thwart a proposal for a war crimes inquiry, and instead supported a resolution praising Sri Lanka. In January India voted in favour of a war crimes inquiry into Israel’s operation in the Gaza Strip, which killed an estimated 926 civilians.   General Mehta said that the Indian Government, led by the Congress Party, wanted to counterbalance China and Pakistan, its main regional rivals, which had each increased arms sales to Sri Lanka in the past few years. It also wanted to avenge the Tigers’ assassination in 1991 of Rajiv Gandhi, the Prime Minister and late husband of Sonia Gandhi, the current Congress leader, he said.   Brad Adams, Asia director of Human Rights Watch, said that neither reason justified failing to act when the Red Cross warned of an “unimaginable humanitarian catastrophe”. India “could have saved many lives if it had taken a proactive position — and it would not have affected the outcome of the war,” he said.   Sam Zarifi, Asia Pacific director of Amnesty International, said: “India . . . simply chose to support the [Sri Lankan] Government’s notion that it could kill as many civilians as it would take to defeat the Tigers.”   India says that it provided Sri Lanka with non-lethal military equipment and sent officials repeatedly to persuade the Government to protect civilians. “We’ve consistently taken the line that the Sri Lankan Government should prevent civilian casualties,” a Foreign Ministry spokesman said.   However, President Rajapaksa of Sri Lanka told NDTV: “I don’t think I got any pressure from them. They knew that I’m fighting their war.”   Mr Rajapaksa told The Week magazine that he planned to visit Delhi next month to thank Indian leaders. “India’s moral support during the war was most important,” he said.   Diplomats, human rights activists and analysts say that Delhi either did not use its full diplomatic force or, more likely, gave Colombo carte blanche to finish the war. India’s only real concerns, they said, were that the conflict should not create a flood of refugees to India. Some raised questions about Vijay Nambiar, a former Indian diplomat, who is chief of staff to Ban Ki Moon, the UN Secretary-General. The Times revealed last week that Mr Nambiar knew about but chose not to make public the UN’s estimate that 20,000 civilians had been killed, mostly by army shelling.   http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/world/asia/article6401557.ece   From chandni.parekh at gmail.com Wed Jun 3 15:24:49 2009 From: chandni.parekh at gmail.com (Chandni Parekh) Date: Wed, 3 Jun 2009 15:24:49 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Slacktivism - Articles on Online Activism Message-ID: http://www.theglobeandmail.com/news/arts/article1140600.ece A slacktivist and his crackberry are seldom parted Excerpt: Evgeny Morozov, custodian of a blog called Net Effect, spoke of Internet users who imagine themselves to be hard-working activists when all they do is press a key to forward an online petition to their contact list. As others cheerfully forward the petition, it becomes the Flying Dutchman of the Internet, with no place to land but with many overtaxed in-boxes to haunt. The word given to this blithe button-pushing is slacktivism, a cross between slacker and activism. It's a baked Alaska of a word, combining the heat of activism with the coolness of barely lifting a finger. ----- http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=104302141&sc=fb&cc=fp *Foreign Policy: Brave New World Of Slacktivism *Excerpts:* * "Slacktivism " is an apt term to describe feel-good online activism that has zero political or social impact. It gives those who participate in "slacktivist" campaigns an illusion of having a meaningful impact on the world without demanding anything more than joining a Facebook group. "Slacktivism" is the ideal type of activism for a lazy generation: why bother with sit-ins and the risk of arrest, police brutality, or torture if one can be as loud campaigning in the virtual space? Given the media's fixation on all things digital -- from blogging to social networking to Twitter -- every click of your mouse is almost guaranteed to receive immediate media attention, as long as it's geared towards the noble causes. That media attention doesn't always translate into campaign effectiveness is only of secondary importance. The real issue here is whether the mere availability of the "slacktivist" option is likely to push those who in the past might have confronted the regime in person with demonstrations, leaflets, and labor organizing to embrace the Facebook option and join a gazillion online issue groups instead. Of course, the ideal case here is when one's participation in digital activism doesn't subtract from -- and instead enhances -- one's eagerness to participate in real-life campaigns. However, it's also quite possible that a significant portion of the activist population would be morally content with the "slacktivist" option alone, preferring not to get too close to more dangerous activities that are likely to get them in trouble with authorities. From kshmendra2005 at yahoo.com Wed Jun 3 15:43:30 2009 From: kshmendra2005 at yahoo.com (Kshmendra Kaul) Date: Wed, 3 Jun 2009 03:13:30 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Reader-list] Slacktivism - Articles on Online Activism Message-ID: <958767.87562.qm@web57204.mail.re3.yahoo.com> Already in love with the word   Love at first sight   Love at the first taste --- On Wed, 6/3/09, Chandni Parekh wrote: From: Chandni Parekh Subject: [Reader-list] Slacktivism - Articles on Online Activism To: reader-list at sarai.net Date: Wednesday, June 3, 2009, 3:24 PM http://www.theglobeandmail.com/news/arts/article1140600.ece A slacktivist and his crackberry are seldom parted Excerpt: Evgeny Morozov, custodian of a blog called Net Effect, spoke of Internet users who imagine themselves to be hard-working activists when all they do is press a key to forward an online petition to their contact list. As others cheerfully forward the petition, it becomes the Flying Dutchman of the Internet, with no place to land but with many overtaxed in-boxes to haunt. The word given to this blithe button-pushing is slacktivism, a cross between slacker and activism. It's a baked Alaska of a word, combining the heat of activism with the coolness of barely lifting a finger. ----- http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=104302141&sc=fb&cc=fp *Foreign Policy: Brave New World Of Slacktivism *Excerpts:* * "Slacktivism " is an apt term to describe feel-good online activism that has zero political or social impact. It gives those who participate in "slacktivist" campaigns an illusion of having a meaningful impact on the world without demanding anything more than joining a Facebook group. "Slacktivism" is the ideal type of activism for a lazy generation: why bother with sit-ins and the risk of arrest, police brutality, or torture if one can be as loud campaigning in the virtual space? Given the media's fixation on all things digital -- from blogging to social networking to Twitter -- every click of your mouse is almost guaranteed to receive immediate media attention, as long as it's geared towards the noble causes. That media attention doesn't always translate into campaign effectiveness is only of secondary importance. The real issue here is whether the mere availability of the "slacktivist" option is likely to push those who in the past might have confronted the regime in person with demonstrations, leaflets, and labor organizing to embrace the Facebook option and join a gazillion online issue groups instead. Of course, the ideal case here is when one's participation in digital activism doesn't subtract from -- and instead enhances -- one's eagerness to participate in real-life campaigns. However, it's also quite possible that a significant portion of the activist population would be morally content with the "slacktivist" option alone, preferring not to get too close to more dangerous activities that are likely to get them in trouble with authorities. _________________________________________ reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. Critiques & Collaborations To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with subscribe in the subject header. To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> From nicheant at yahoo.co.uk Wed Jun 3 16:09:07 2009 From: nicheant at yahoo.co.uk (Nishant) Date: Wed, 3 Jun 2009 10:39:07 +0000 (GMT) Subject: [Reader-list] =?utf-8?q?Public_Discussion_on_Internationalising_C?= =?utf-8?q?aste=3A_Everybody=E2=80=99s_Issue=3F_Or_Nobody=E2=80=99s_Issue?= =?utf-8?q?=3F_June_4=2C_Thursday=2C_2009=2C_India_Social_Institute=2C_New?= =?utf-8?q?_Delhi?= Message-ID: <70867.24346.qm@web27903.mail.ukl.yahoo.com> [Circulate Widely ! All Are Welcome !] CACIM and Navayana < www.navayana.org> invite you to a public discussion on Internationalising Caste: Everybody’s Issue? Or Nobody’s Issue? June 4, Thursday, 2009 3.30 – 6.30 pm, Indian Social Institute, New Delhi 'Caste has killed public spirit. Caste has destroyed the sense of public charity. Caste has made public opinion impossible… Virtue has become caste-ridden and morality has become caste-bound.' B.R. Ambedkar, in Annihilation of Caste, 1936 The efforts to internationalise the issue of caste-based discrimination against the 260 million Dalits in South Asia and treat it on a par with racial discrimination, which had received a boost in 2001 at the United Nations World Conference Against Racism (WCAR) held in Durban, suffered a serious setback at the Durban Review Conference held recently (April 20–24, 2009) in Geneva. While in 2001, WCAR had discussed caste euphemistically as “discrimination based on work and descent”, in line with terminology devised by the UN’s Committee on the Elimination of Racial Discrimination (CERD), the outcome document of the Durban Review Conference (DRC) has evaded even an allusion to caste. More than a month after the Geneva event, there’s almost no public debate in India on the issue. Dalits have tried raising the issue of caste with various UN forums for over three decades now. The first effort at lobbying with the UN resulted in Dr Laxmi Berwa, an expatriate Dalit from the United States, presenting a testimony before the UN Sub-Commission on Human Rights in Geneva on 31 August 1982. -- What is shocking has been the near-total absence of any debate in the Indian public sphere about the setback to the fight against caste at the international level. -- Why does caste continue to be an issue raised only by Dalits today? What is the role of civil societal groups in this? -- Why it is that society remains indifferent to atrocities on Dalits—even though every hour two Dalits are assaulted, every day three Dalit women are raped, two Dalits are murdered and two Dalit houses burnt? -- Why have NGOs come to dominate the UN interventions on caste? Are social/ political/ activist movements being left behind? To debate and raise awareness on these issues and to broaden the scope of the global effort at fighting caste, we invite you to three sessions of debate and discussion: The Experience of Internationalising Caste: AshokBharti (National Confrence of Dalit Organisations, NACDOR), PaulDivakar, National Council for Dalit Human Rights NCDHR; ColinGonsalves (Human Rights Law Network, HRLN) Caste—The Media’s Complicity and Silence: Neelabh Mishra (Outlook Hindi) and Pamela Philipose (Women’s Feature Service) Caste and Other Questions: Racism, Communalism, Imperialism: Praful Bidwai (Senior Journalist), Annie Namala (Director, Centre for Programming Inclusion and Equity), Surinder Jodhka (Director, Indian Institute of Dalit Studies) Moderator: S.Anand, Navayana Each panel will be for about 40 minutes, followed by 10 minutes of discussion. After the concluding panel, it will be an Open House. Tea will be served at 3.30 p.m. For further details contact Madhuresh at CACIM 9818905316 (www.cacim.net) or Anand at Navayana 9971433117 (www.navayana.org). A ready-reckoner of online references and resources: 1. The official Durban Review Conference website. 2. Human Rights Watch on how and why DRC failed on caste. The site also offers extensive background and position papers. 3. International Dalit Solidarity Network website. Offers joint statement by IDSN, HRW and NCDHR; plus a press kit. 4. Caste and the World, S. Anand, The Hindu, May 24, 2009. 5. Caste: Racism in all but name? Shobhan Saxena’s Times of India report on DRC, 26 Apr 2009. 6. Caste Out, Yet Again, EPW editorial on Durban Review Conference; May16 2009. 7. Seminar, the monthly journal, devoted an entire issue (Dec 2001) to the Durban WCAR conference of 2001. Features articles by Martin Macwan, Kancha Ilaiah, Gopal Guru, Dipankar Gupta, Soli Sorabjee and others. 8. Race and Caste, Andre Beteille, The Hindu, March 10, 2001. A controversial article that triggered a huge debate. 9. Race and caste: A Response to Andre Beteille by Kalpana Kannabiran, August 2001. Also see this letter to The Hindu: 10. India’s Apartheid, Rajeev Dhavan, The Hindu, August 24, 2001 11. Is Durban the answer? Vir Singh, The Hindu, September 02, 2001 12. Caste, race and sociologists – I, Gail Omvedt, The Hindu, October 18, 2001 13. Caste, race and sociologists – II, Gail Omvedt, The Hindu, October 19, 2001 14. Caste, Race and the Indian Anthropologists, Amarjit Singh, ambedkar.org 15. The Durban dip can a billion sins, ChandraBhan Prasad, Aug 2001. 16. En Route to Durban: Thoughts on Caste and Race, Vijay Parshad, n.d. 17. CPI(M) official position statement on WCAR, Durban; 3 August 2001 18. Caste and the U.N. meet, Kancha Ilaiah, The Hindu, August 21, 2001 19. Caste and Race, NAUNIDHI KAUR, Frontline, 6 July 2001 20. PUCL’s special focus on the 2001 Durban countdown debates. From sub_sengupta at yahoo.co.in Wed Jun 3 16:56:27 2009 From: sub_sengupta at yahoo.co.in (subhrodip sengupta) Date: Wed, 3 Jun 2009 16:56:27 +0530 (IST) Subject: [Reader-list] Fw: Fw: Whats Going on in Australia? Message-ID: <550298.40501.qm@web94714.mail.in2.yahoo.com> ----- Forwarded Message ---- From: subhrodip sengupta To: SAREETA BIPIN AMRUTE Sent: Wednesday, 3 June, 2009 4:56:02 PM Subject: Re: [Reader-list] Fw: Whats Going on in Australia? Dear Sareeta,Rakesh, Kshmendra and all,                           Thanks for your interest on this topic. Today I saw some Aussie cricketer's wrath on the same lines on immigrants(As if Indians were the only immigrants, SE asians were attacked also, but in less numbers). Also thanks my approach into aggresive trends would be evolutionary, not exactly deterministic. Apart from heavy spending on drugs, I tried to look back on a decade old topic on teenage violence, and then on Google, a whole new arena of Racist Games opened, which I admittedly indulged in to Atleast explore the actions, intensity and influence. In my childhood days, I did not play computer games either, but amazing that I did not know of them. The Question then raises is why Austrailian teens are particularly prone to attacking? A second fact I remember is a short span of rapes of North East Girls in Delhi, South Delhi and janakpuri Region in particular, and the profile of criminals. The comments by public was not ony hazardous, but also dishearteaning, until I realised that Education doesnt make anybody better at heart, it only sharpens the brain. FEudal blames were given to shorts and their lifestyles, just going the name they are popular by. Here is the society, and it's level of 'openness' and sarcasm. US also suffers from such an apartheid. Yesterday, I read an article by CNN that 4/5 out of the group of citizens studied, do not think high about what people of muslim countries think about them. MY stand on Unfair, or say, but I do not think illegal immigrants(all I know is studying there makes it easier to immigrate into Us) is still the same. The country knowingly calls them it benifits them and adds to their Surplus. Then, just after a recession why speak on lines of MNS, when economies are recovering? India is also alllowing Aussie firms stay within it. Silence speaks for itself in such cases, and there is no need to award freedom of doubt. The ' Reporting A CRIME Game' which studies why individuals do not report a crime does not hold afterwards. Besides Indians can not file for police jobs, nor take bribes on their behalf, why are they then so worried? As if Govt of Karnataka got nightmares about their children partying late nights! Why are Indians regarded soft targets? Has ever a Muslim being attacked? Blacks are better built off course. What kind of lifestyles do Indians follow? Is there any political or cultural friction as well? The answer lies in Community and sense of belonging. Again overemphasis on this would rather be political and I avoid it because it is like saying a victim wanted Rape(As if we were guardians of criminals)! Why children are prompted to take drugs, play violent games etc., also somewhere relates to the sense of efficiency, how one is willing to acquire property and to some extent upon the ideology of parents as well. I'll blame the police apthy for it completely.Besides in presence of a strong lobby, do not they eat into a share of the Salaami? Schooling has to play a good role, and I am really afraid of the safety of indian students in such schools. People should seperate publicity from science, a social sporadic violence by adults or teenagers should not be misread along seggregationist lines. If we at all are concerned we should be concerned first as Human beings and as relatives and friends than hope this would be a nice way of bringing back the Indian brains and sending them to Rots, that kind of beurgroise fallacy I can not afford to resort to! Racism is everywhere, it is pinching only when you mix it with violence, but then all crimes need some way of justifying themselves. By take here is out of empathy rather than being deterministic, It is Sad Australians still follow the Imperialist values, though technologically advanced, and nobody or no institution bothers to break the ice. Is it because of helpless state of India which is drawing plans for increased FDI's in future, or what? Thanks for drawing my attention to the book. IF you please, could you give me some excerpts as well? MY pocket money is out for a month and local library closed! haha Regards, Subhrodip. ________________________________ From: SAREETA BIPIN AMRUTE To: Kshmendra Kaul Cc: Readers list Yousuf Sarai. ; subhrodip sengupta Sent: Wednesday, 3 June, 2009 12:42:46 AM Subject: Re: [Reader-list] Fw: Whats Going on in Australia? There is an interesting book about Indian IT workers in Australia, called 'Global Bodyshopping' by Xiang.  His overall argument is somewhat 'culturalist', but he does point out that people try to find ways around the restrictive visa scheme by doing things like setting themselves up as 'consultants' (we all know what that entails), or moving to Australia a students and then taking short-term jobs (often through consulting firms) as software engineers.  These and related practices might help explain the high number of students registered.  There seem to be very fluid boundaries between IT work, schooling, and various kinds of temporary unemployment. Sarita ________________________________ Explore and discover exciting holidays and getaways with Yahoo! India Travel Click here! Bollywood news, movie reviews, film trailers and more! Go to http://in.movies.yahoo.com/ From kshmendra2005 at yahoo.com Wed Jun 3 19:04:24 2009 From: kshmendra2005 at yahoo.com (Kshmendra Kaul) Date: Wed, 3 Jun 2009 06:34:24 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Reader-list] The "Sickular" History Message-ID: <74671.42286.qm@web57205.mail.re3.yahoo.com> My burst of "love" for the word "slacktivism" that I got introduced to today reminded me about another word which I immediately fell in love with on first seeing it. The word is "sickular".   I have personally never used the word "sickular" even though in it resonates and it encompasses my own evaluations of some attitudes one sees in India. I have preffered terms like "convoluted secularism"; "hypocritical secularism"; "selective secularism".   "Sickular" is a powerful word but it is too dismissive for my liking for it often brings to a sudden end any reasoned discussion that could explore opposing viewpoints on interpretaions of "secularism".   But, "Sickular" is a significant word for it symbolises the attitudinal and to some extent the ideological divides that exist in India.    What are the origins of this word "Sickular"? I could not find it in any dictionary, nor was Wikipedia of any help. If someone knows, please let me know.   "Sickular" apppears to be an India-coined word.   - The earliest usage of the word "sickular" that I could locate  from Web sources is a 2004 comment by "Anonymous" on the site "Snap Judgement"  which has content pre-dominantly in Tamil:   "When our so called sickular media were shy on even touching this gory murder, you did a splendid job of bringing out the truth." http://snapjudge.com/2004/11/05/%E0%AE%A8%E0%AF%86%E0%AE%A4%E0%AE%B0%E0%AF%8D%E0%AE%B2%E0%AE%BE%E0%AE%A8%E0%AF%8D%E0%AE%A4%E0%AE%BF%E0%AE%A9%E0%AF%8D-%E0%AE%AE%E0%AF%88%E0%AE%95%E0%AF%8D%E0%AE%95%E0%AF%87%E0%AE%B2%E0%AF%8D-%E0%AE%AE/     Next after 2004, I could find use of "sickular" only in 2006. The word is seen figuring repeatedly after that in 2008 and 2009.     - Jan 2006,  "indusAquarius" comments on the Blog "Shadow Warrior" :   "This Mahesh Bhatt is among the bigwigs of the Sickular brigade." http://rajeev2004.blogspot.com/2006/01/british-mohammedan-preachers-vision.html     - Feb 2006, on the same Blog, "daisies" questions "DarkStorm" :     "And your daily songs of "sickular" are not sickening for anyone ?" http://rajeev2004.blogspot.com/2006/02/indians-as-blacks.html     - March 2006, on the "OUTLOOKINDIA" site, in a comment, "Ramchi" says:   "Only in India where Hindu temples which are under the control of sickular governments charging Hindus for praying their Gods." http://www.outlookindia.com/printdis_v2.asp?refer=64867&childid=64867     - March 2006, in the "Wisdom Blog" on the INDIATIMES site, "Ram" comments:   "If not, at the first opportunity, fly out of India, leaving the country in the hands of this 'sickular' govt." http://o3.indiatimes.com/wisenation/archive/2006/03/29/574301.aspx     - May 2006, on the site "Sepia Mutiny", "Gaurav" questions "Mahajan Skeptic":   "In your scheme of thing I guess India was a Ram Rajya (oops, that is communal !), I meant paradise under "sickular" Congress until Devil (BJP) came and serpent (LKA) robbed Indians of innocence." http://209.85.229.132/search?q=cache:yGIEYP-BFs4J:www.sepiamutiny.com/sepia/archives/003334.html+%22sickular%22&cd=90&hl=en&ct=clnk&gl=ae     - May 2006, "Blinded" comments in the "UNITED WE BLOG! FOR A DEMOCRATIC NEPAL" :   "I am amazed that still you all are not aware of what is true secularism and what is happening to India due to sickular (secular) ideology!!" http://blog.com.np/united-we-blog/2006/05/18/no-hindu-kingdom-celebrating-secularism-in-nepal/     - May 2006, "SPINDIANMEDIA" titles an entry in Blog of same name:   "Vir Sanghvi's "sickular" double standards on stark display" http://spindianmedia.blogspot.com/2006/05/vir-sanghvis-sickular-double-standards.html     - June 2006, we have "Shmuel Kuper" commenting on what appears to be an Israeli site "CROSS CURRENTS":    "Hopefully, the readers of this forum do not belong to the brainwashed sickular public who do not care to read facts that might confuse their brainwashed mind, and will find interest in facts rather than antisemite propaganda, the “isreali” media so excels in, putting the “Jewish” state as the #1 antisemite state in the Western world." http://www.cross-currents.com/archives/2006/06/28/yisrael-valis-the-court-transcript/     - Jan 2007, on the site INDIANMUSLIMS, "Sharique" writes a piece, titling it "The SICKular parties" and writes:   "Incidents like these often develop this feeling in me that would India have been in a much better position as a ‘Hindu Rashtra’ ? At least there would have been no hypocrisy on the parts of these sickular political parties" http://indianmuslims.in/the-sickular-parties/     Kshmendra   From labor at buchsenhausen.at Wed Jun 3 20:21:23 2009 From: labor at buchsenhausen.at (=?UTF-8?B?S8O8bnN0bGVyaGF1cyBCw7xjaHNlbmhhdXNlbg==?=) Date: Wed, 03 Jun 2009 16:51:23 +0200 Subject: [Reader-list] Exhibition Programme 2010 - Call for Proposals Message-ID: <4A268DEB.7080402@buchsenhausen.at> sorry for cross-posting! ------------------------------------------------------------------------- [CALL FOR PROPOSALS FOR THE 2010 PROGRAMME] Project proposals and portfolios for the exhibition programme of the KUNSTPAVILLON and STADTTURMGALERIE of the Tiroler Künstlerschaft in Innsbruck ------------------------------------------------------------------------- DEADLINE FOR APPLICATION: 20 June 2009 (date of postmark) The entire call can be found here: http://www.kuenstlerschaft.at/kue/modules.php?op=modload&name=PagEd&file=index&topic_id=8&page_id=641&newlang=eng The Tyrolean Artists´ Association is conceived of as a forum for art in Tyrol, as an interface between professional visual artists living in or originating from Tyrol, the interested public, and other cultural institutions in and outside of Austria. An important task for the Association is forming and maintaining contacts to internationally active artists, curators and theoreticians. The exhibition programmes of the KUNSTPAVILLON and the STADTTURMGALERIE present projects by Tyrolean artists in relation to an international context. Emphasis is placed on presenting artistic production with a relationship to Tyrol. Exhibitions by external curators and artists from abroad and other Austrian federal states are important points of engagement and offer exciting surfaces for friction. More information on current and past exhibition programmes of the Künstlerschaft can be found at www.kuenstlerschaft.at. Five exhibitions in the Kunstpavillon and five in the Stadtturmgalerie are intended for 2010. For more information please contact: pavillon at kuenstlerschaft.at, tel. +43 512 581133. From indersalim at gmail.com Wed Jun 3 22:40:10 2009 From: indersalim at gmail.com (Inder Salim) Date: Wed, 3 Jun 2009 22:40:10 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] India accused of complicity in deaths of Sri Lankan Tamils In-Reply-To: <379834.41347.qm@web57205.mail.re3.yahoo.com> References: <379834.41347.qm@web57205.mail.re3.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <47e122a70906031010k2f899350v730958204570099@mail.gmail.com> Dear Kshmendra thanks for forward ever since IPKF ( indian peace keeping force ) launched itself against LTTE i see Indian complicity in continuum the fall of Tamils in Sri Lanka was bound to happen, as no terrorist activity sustains itself beyond a decade or so. That has happened in Punjab and perhaps we see it happening in Kashmir as well. I always feel that 'dissent', mainly political, as and when crosses a certain limit of violence it only helps the state to strengthen.....strangely , after the fall of any terrorist outfit, i see erstwhile politicians acquiring more lethal looks than before. there are are reasons to fear any sign which marks the defeat of these Militants-Turned-Terrorists organizations because now the so called main stream politicians will be armed with many excuses to quell any expressions that may demand the restoration of the sensible, ....... perhaps, because of millions of such organized state violence against its subjects has resulted into this present mindset of Nationalism, wherein we even see the story of human civilization, i see no escape for the masses, and i see no end to the possibilities of terror outfits throwing blood on the flowery still life on our routine canvas. am i too pessimist ? We, the peaceful living entities in India have a natural consensus against Naxals, ( a movement by landless people ) which led to a recent farcical arrest of Dr. Binayak Singh, and now strangely his supporters have no choice but to be thankful to an SC Judgement that grated him bail after two years of illegal confinement, but the good judges too might not be good against the a real Naxal, if arrest, just on as flimsy grounds as Dr. Binayak Singh.....( Perhaps, former Railway minister George Ferndese was a Naxalite, once )... strange are the ways of main stream politics... i know it is not possible to understand these conflicts with one yard stick. and yet we see similarities, and some questions arising out of that, just for curiosity LTTE's success would have unnerved Indian Nation State, since Tamil Nadu too could have become part of it, if not now, but in future, but why cant there be one exclusive Tamil country with its own language, administration, if all the Tamils want it, why denial ? ( meanwhile, i have no big enthusiasm for any formations of new boarders/territories, but statuesque are proven sterile... ) I know the slogan like multiculturalism etc are good for the health of society/nation etc etc. but on the ground, Tamils in Sri Lanka were treated as second class citizens, so why cant LTTE be seen as a just political expression, of course driven by obsolete protest procedures. but on the other hand how deep is the relation between violence and politics, we both know. quite paradoxical ... .......some managed their territorial dissent, with their money or modernity, where people dont see much difference between this and that, French managed it, Spain too , and now main stream Iraqi too seems to settle down with Kurdistan within one Iraq map. there are many examples, here in India too we are settled with Punjab issue, but with Kashmir issue, i guess Indian diplomacy is still at square one? or things have quite drifted in other direction because of ennui ... or you see it differently? with love is On Wed, Jun 3, 2009 at 3:10 PM, Kshmendra Kaul wrote: > > From The Times > June 1, 2009 > > > "India accused of complicity in deaths of Sri Lankan Tamils" > > > > > > > Jeremy Page, South Asia Correspondent > > > India was accused yesterday of complicity in the killing of an estimated 20,000 civilians in the last stages of Sri Lanka’s 26-year war against the Tamil Tigers. > > Major-General Ashok Mehta, a former commander of Indian peacekeeping forces in Sri Lanka, said that India’s role was “distressing and disturbing”. Two international human rights groups said that India had failed to do enough to protect civilian lives. > > “We were complicit in this last phase of the offensive when a great number of civilians were killed,” General Mehta, who is now retired, told The Times. “Having taken a decision to go along with the campaign, we went along with it all the way and ignored what was happening on the ground.” > > Despite being home to 60 million Tamils, India has provided Sri Lanka with military equipment, training and intelligence over the past three years, diplomatic sources told The Times. More controversially, it provided unwavering diplomatic support and failed to use its influence to negotiate a ceasefire for civilians to escape the front line, they said. > > India joined a bloc led by China and Russia at a special session of the UN Human Rights Council last week to thwart a proposal for a war crimes inquiry, and instead supported a resolution praising Sri Lanka. In January India voted in favour of a war crimes inquiry into Israel’s operation in the Gaza Strip, which killed an estimated 926 civilians. > > General Mehta said that the Indian Government, led by the Congress Party, wanted to counterbalance China and Pakistan, its main regional rivals, which had each increased arms sales to Sri Lanka in the past few years. It also wanted to avenge the Tigers’ assassination in 1991 of Rajiv Gandhi, the Prime Minister and late husband of Sonia Gandhi, the current Congress leader, he said. > > Brad Adams, Asia director of Human Rights Watch, said that neither reason justified failing to act when the Red Cross warned of an “unimaginable humanitarian catastrophe”. India “could have saved many lives if it had taken a proactive position — and it would not have affected the outcome of the war,” he said. > > Sam Zarifi, Asia Pacific director of Amnesty International, said: “India . . . simply chose to support the [Sri Lankan] Government’s notion that it could kill as many civilians as it would take to defeat the Tigers.” > > India says that it provided Sri Lanka with non-lethal military equipment and sent officials repeatedly to persuade the Government to protect civilians. “We’ve consistently taken the line that the Sri Lankan Government should prevent civilian casualties,” a Foreign Ministry spokesman said. > > However, President Rajapaksa of Sri Lanka told NDTV: “I don’t think I got any pressure from them. They knew that I’m fighting their war.” > > Mr Rajapaksa told The Week magazine that he planned to visit Delhi next month to thank Indian leaders. “India’s moral support during the war was most important,” he said. > > Diplomats, human rights activists and analysts say that Delhi either did not use its full diplomatic force or, more likely, gave Colombo carte blanche to finish the war. India’s only real concerns, they said, were that the conflict should not create a flood of refugees to India. Some raised questions about Vijay Nambiar, a former Indian diplomat, who is chief of staff to Ban Ki Moon, the UN Secretary-General. The Times revealed last week that Mr Nambiar knew about but chose not to make public the UN’s estimate that 20,000 civilians had been killed, mostly by army shelling. > > http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/world/asia/article6401557.ece > > > > > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with subscribe in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: -- http://indersalim.livejournal.com From indersalim at gmail.com Wed Jun 3 22:56:08 2009 From: indersalim at gmail.com (Inder Salim) Date: Wed, 3 Jun 2009 22:56:08 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] The "Sickular" History In-Reply-To: <74671.42286.qm@web57205.mail.re3.yahoo.com> References: <74671.42286.qm@web57205.mail.re3.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <47e122a70906031026s4306fedet7bc8215387fcb271@mail.gmail.com> Dear Kshmendra SECULAR has lot to do with profane than with sacred, lucidly. So it is not surprising that contemporary dirty politics invents the word Sickluar. in many senses than one WE ALL ARE SICKLUAR PEOPLE , and that is not a bad category, given that fact that we can bring about a change in the society...... there is a possibility, but those who think they are believers ought to study their practices, and analyze deeply how their beliefs are sustained by this Sickluar mass. If not down to earth believer, which is so rare, a believer is unwittingly a practising Sickular, So better to be a known as Sickular, consciously.... thanks for kissing the word SICKULAR on the cheek, i too am kissing the other side of it. love is On Wed, Jun 3, 2009 at 7:04 PM, Kshmendra Kaul wrote: > My burst of "love" for the word "slacktivism" that I got introduced to today reminded me about another word which I immediately fell in love with on first seeing it. The word is "sickular". > > I have personally never used the word "sickular" even though in it resonates and it encompasses my own evaluations of some attitudes one sees in India. I have preffered terms like "convoluted secularism"; "hypocritical secularism"; "selective secularism". > > "Sickular" is a powerful word but it is too dismissive for my liking for it often brings to a sudden end any reasoned discussion that could explore opposing viewpoints on interpretaions of "secularism". > > But, "Sickular" is a significant word for it symbolises the attitudinal and to some extent the ideological divides that exist in India. > > What are the origins of this word "Sickular"? I could not find it in any dictionary, nor was Wikipedia of any help. If someone knows, please let me know. > > "Sickular" apppears to be an India-coined word. > > - The earliest usage of the word "sickular" that I could locate  from Web sources is a 2004 comment by "Anonymous" on the site "Snap Judgement"  which has content pre-dominantly in Tamil: > > "When our so called sickular media were shy on even touching this gory murder, you did a splendid job of bringing out the truth." > http://snapjudge.com/2004/11/05/%E0%AE%A8%E0%AF%86%E0%AE%A4%E0%AE%B0%E0%AF%8D%E0%AE%B2%E0%AE%BE%E0%AE%A8%E0%AF%8D%E0%AE%A4%E0%AE%BF%E0%AE%A9%E0%AF%8D-%E0%AE%AE%E0%AF%88%E0%AE%95%E0%AF%8D%E0%AE%95%E0%AF%87%E0%AE%B2%E0%AF%8D-%E0%AE%AE/ > > > Next after 2004, I could find use of "sickular" only in 2006. The word is seen figuring repeatedly after that in 2008 and 2009. > > > - Jan 2006,  "indusAquarius" comments on the Blog "Shadow Warrior" : > > "This Mahesh Bhatt is among the bigwigs of the Sickular brigade." > http://rajeev2004.blogspot.com/2006/01/british-mohammedan-preachers-vision.html > > > - Feb 2006, on the same Blog, "daisies" questions "DarkStorm" : > > "And your daily songs of "sickular" are not sickening for anyone ?" > http://rajeev2004.blogspot.com/2006/02/indians-as-blacks.html > > > - March 2006, on the "OUTLOOKINDIA" site, in a comment, "Ramchi" says: > > "Only in India where Hindu temples which are under the control of sickular governments charging Hindus for praying their Gods." > http://www.outlookindia.com/printdis_v2.asp?refer=64867&childid=64867 > > > - March 2006, in the "Wisdom Blog" on the INDIATIMES site, "Ram" comments: > > "If not, at the first opportunity, fly out of India, leaving the country in the hands of this 'sickular' govt." > http://o3.indiatimes.com/wisenation/archive/2006/03/29/574301.aspx > > > - May 2006, on the site "Sepia Mutiny", "Gaurav" questions "Mahajan Skeptic": > > "In your scheme of thing I guess India was a Ram Rajya (oops, that is communal !), I meant paradise under "sickular" Congress until Devil (BJP) came and serpent (LKA) robbed Indians of innocence." > http://209.85.229.132/search?q=cache:yGIEYP-BFs4J:www.sepiamutiny.com/sepia/archives/003334.html+%22sickular%22&cd=90&hl=en&ct=clnk&gl=ae > > > - May 2006, "Blinded" comments in the "UNITED WE BLOG! FOR A DEMOCRATIC NEPAL" : > > "I am amazed that still you all are not aware of what is true secularism and what is happening to India due to sickular (secular) ideology!!" > http://blog.com.np/united-we-blog/2006/05/18/no-hindu-kingdom-celebrating-secularism-in-nepal/ > > > - May 2006, "SPINDIANMEDIA" titles an entry in Blog of same name: > > "Vir Sanghvi's "sickular" double standards on stark display" > http://spindianmedia.blogspot.com/2006/05/vir-sanghvis-sickular-double-standards.html > > > - June 2006, we have "Shmuel Kuper" commenting on what appears to be an Israeli site "CROSS CURRENTS": > >  "Hopefully, the readers of this forum do not belong to the brainwashed sickular public who do not care to read facts that might confuse their brainwashed mind, and will find interest in facts rather than antisemite propaganda, the “isreali” media so excels in, putting the “Jewish” state as the #1 antisemite state in the Western world." > http://www.cross-currents.com/archives/2006/06/28/yisrael-valis-the-court-transcript/ > > > - Jan 2007, on the site INDIANMUSLIMS, "Sharique" writes a piece, titling it "The SICKular parties" and writes: > > "Incidents like these often develop this feeling in me that would India have been in a much better position as a ‘Hindu Rashtra’ ? At least there would have been no hypocrisy on the parts of these sickular political parties" > http://indianmuslims.in/the-sickular-parties/ > > > Kshmendra > > > > > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with subscribe in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: -- http://indersalim.livejournal.com From pawan.durani at gmail.com Thu Jun 4 10:31:23 2009 From: pawan.durani at gmail.com (Pawan Durani) Date: Thu, 4 Jun 2009 10:31:23 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Massacres - 5 Message-ID: <6b79f1a70906032201l17ace052i37220baf4f3fa45@mail.gmail.com> Terrorists declare war on minorities in Jammu What is the responsibility of a state? Protecting its people or its borders. The withdrawal of Army from several interior areas of Jammu province in the wake of ‘coercive diplomacy’ resorted to by the ND government, has exposed the non-Muslims living in these areas to terrorist attacks. In their game plan of massive ethic-cleansing in Jammu province, the terrorists have been attacking non-Muslims all over Jammu province Udhampur, Doda, Rajouri, Poonch etc. These attacks have shaken the confidence of the minorities and there has been migration from many places. As part of ‘Peace Diplomacy’, Army had withdrawn its 29 Mountain Division from Mahore sector. Following this, terrorists launched many attacks against Hindus living in Mahore, parts of Doda district, Budhal and Rajouri. The recent withdrawal of 13 Sector Rashtriya Rifles has left the hapless civilian population only two choices either to surrender to the diktat of terrorists or migrate to safer destinations. Many of the pickets of security pickets in these areas now stand abandoned. It has paved way for free movement of the terrorists. Thirteen families have left their homes in Kot and Charal villages of Budhal, while from an adjoining village 25 people have migrated. Most of these areas have no communications and villagers have to trek for 24 hours to reach the nearest motorable road. Surankote Killings The withdrawal of Army from Thannamandi, Bafliaz and Surankot has made the passage of minorities through these areas risky. On December 5, the terrorists gunned down a sitting Sessions Judge, Vijay Kumar Phull, near Dehra Ki Gali in Surankote tehsil of Poonch district. His two bodyguards and a friend were also gunned down by the terrorists. Interestingly, the killers remained on the spot for half an hour after these killings. Before fleeing they shot at and injured the cleaner of a truck, which was carrying chicken for an Army unit in the area. The cleaner of the truck was hit but the driver did not stop and drove on. Troops reached the massacre site around 2.30 PM, three hours later. The terrorists were in combat dress and had already stopped a bus to check the I-Cards of passengers when Judge’s vehicle reached there. The terrorists then allowed the bus driver to take away his vehicle along with the paqssengers. Reports said two of the terrorists had approached Phul’s car and asked him for his I-Card. Before the Judge could respond, the militants opened fire, killing all of them, including one who tried to flee. A group of six to eight terrorists had laid a naka at village Donar, about two kms ahead of Dera Ki Gali. In the bus the terrorists had been looking for police personnel but did not find any. The Judge  in seriously injured condition had come out of the car after the terrorists left and crawled about 40 metres in a bid to reach a house but succumbed to his injuries immediately thereafter. Terrorists also took away the weapon of his PSO. It was the bus driver, who informed the shoot-out incident at Thannamandi police station at 12 noon and security officials took 2½ hrs to respond. His bodyguards Prem Kumar and Kamal Singh belonged to Rajouri and RS Pora respectively. His friend VK Sodhi hailed from Krishna Nagar Jammu. There was strong resentment against the killings. Nearly a crowd of over fifteen thousand people joined the funeral of Phull in Poonch. In a careless act, the administration floundered by sending Sodhi’s body to Phull’s family. Sodhi’s funeral thus got delayed by a day. Except for a single CID cop, no other personnel of Rajouri district administration, despite prior intimation by authorities in Jammu, was there when Mrs Phull reached from Jammu at 9.30 PM. On December 24, Romeo Force of Army in Surankot claimed that the killer of Phull, Mohd Zafran Khan alias Abu Asram, ‘area commander of LeT has been killed in an encounter. The killer belonged to Abbotabad. Only a day before the terrorists had shot two Ayurvedic doctors--Dr Kulbhushan Sharma of Jammu and Dr ML Sharma of Mendhar. Reports said, a group of terrorists had laid an ambush in Dundak area and opened firing on a Maruti car and a truck, which had left Poonch for Surankot at 7.15 PM. Conductor of the truck was killed on spot. Dr Kulbhushan was posted in Mandi. The two were going to meet their relatives in Surankote when their car came under the terrorists’ firing. Poonch Massacre On the new year’s day at 5-45 PM, two terrorists dropped at the house of one Makhan Lal at Magnar Top. The village has a scattered population of Hindus. As it was dark, the inmates lit candles and offered the terrorists chairs to sit. Makhan Lal’s family also gave them food, which the militants refused to accept. The terrorists made all the family members to sit on floor of a room and began interrogating them. They started searching for excuses and told the family members, “we have definite reports that you people have been harassing Muslims of the area and committing atrocities on them.” When the family members said it was untrue, the terrorists opened fire on them killing Baldev Raj his sons Kuldeep (2) and Sunil, (six months) and brothers Khetar Pal and Ashok Kumar and Khetar’s wife Geeta. Baldev’s wife Champa sustained serious bullet injuries. Khetar’s daughter Anju Devi (12) and Baldev’s son Sanjay Kumar (8), who were also sitting on the floor along with the other family members survived unhurt as bodies of some of the dead fell on them giving them a cover. The dead bodies were brought to Geeta Bhawan, Poonch by people, who held a protest demonstration in the town. Magnar Top is 10 km from the town. By evening the crowd at Geeta Bhavan had swelled to more than ten thousand, and refused to cremate the dead bodies till a central minister visited the town. This was second such massacre during past fourty eight hours. Earlier, four persons of a family were killed in Rajouri district, at Kainthal. The lone survivor Champa Devi, who was shifted to GMC, Jammu told mediamen that the two terrorists who intruded in their house were in combat dress and supporting beards. They introduced themselves as army jawans. She was sore that during the firing and even after the incident none of their neighbours had come out for help. She said both ultras were talking in Kashmiri. They entered the kitchen and asked Champa Devi to join other family members. Baldev’s paternal uncle Puran Chand, living in the adjoining house, was also brought to the former’s house. She further said that as soon as all the members assembled in the room, the terrorists locked the door and started firing indiscriminately on them killing five of them on the spot. Till 9 PM when police reached she and other surviving members were lying in the closed house unattended. The Army reached on the spot only next morning. Champa Devi had been shot only at her leg and fell down unconscious. Puran hand somehow managed to escape, carrying away two children Anju Devi and Sanjay Kumar. The police killed three terrorists, identified as Ibrar Bhai, Afrid Bhai and Abu Mujhid, all Pakistanis and affiliated to LeT, in an encounter at Kalai on January 5. It claimed they were instrumental in the killings at Mangnar Top on December 31 evening. The terrorists had taken shelter in the house of one Shafiq Hussain at village Kalaban in Mendhar after the massacre. Ethnic-Cleansing in Rajouri: During the past one month, the terrorists have been making determinded attempts to force a demographic change in this district. Between December 15 and January 16, there were six major attempts at targeting the minority community in the district. On December 15, a group of heavily armed militants entered the house of Chowkidar Kali Dass in village Sher-Makri in Bhawani sector, about 2 kms from LoC in Nowshera at midnight. The militants, numbering eight asked chowkidar to help them cross the border. Kali Dass’s wife Shanti Devi, his son Vijay Kumar and grandson Rinku were present in the house that time. The militants threatened Kali Dass with death in case he did not oblige them. Kali Dass bravely told them that he faced death in both situations and would prefer death in his own country. This infuriated the terrorists. They lined up all the family members and opened full burst of fire on Kali Dass and his wife, killing both of them on the spot. 15 bullets were fired on Kali Dass. His wife received 10 bullets. Rinku managed to escape along with his mother, brother and sister and hid in the house. Vijay Kumar, received serious injuries and fell down unconscious. Rinku raised an alarm in the village and the villagers remained awake throughout the night. Police came to know only at 6 AM. Villagers were furious at the callous attitude of district administration. After the terrorists had killed Kali Dass and his family members, Pakistan army opened heavy firing from across the LoC to provide cover to the fleeing terrorists. Before exfiltrating, they planted four IEDs in a small religious place located close to the LoC. On December 29, in Niro Jal area of Thannamandi, a group of terrorists entered the house of Gulshan Kumar and shot him in the head. He died on spot Gulshan was a VDC member. In this village first the Army was shifted and later on the only police post removed without citing any reason. All the fifteen Hindu families abandoned their village and shifted to Rajouri town. Earlier the villagers had met Superintendent of Police and Deputy Commissioner, demanding the setting up of a picket. They decided to migrate after the district administration expressed helplessness in setting up a picket due to shortage of manpower. Nirojal  falls on the infiltration route of militants, who after crossing over to this side from across the LoC, take Dodasan Bala Darhal route. In the recent past, many IED blasts took place near Nirojal, while at least half a dozen IEDs were recovered live. An imaginative administration, engaged in counter-insurgency campaign would have acted differently. Four members of a minority family were gunned down by the terrorists on December 30. A group of five to seven militants reached at the house of Madan Lal a leading businessman at 8 0’Clock. Three of the terrorists entered the house, while the rest stood guard outside. Immediately they began demanding Rs 7 lakh towards Jehad fund from Madan Lal. His mother Lakshmi placed Rs 60000 before them saying that there was no more money at home at that time. Family members swore that they would collect the amount the next day from the bank and neighbours to meet their demand. Terrorists took sixty thousand rupees and then shot dead Lakshmi Devi. Then they killed Madan Lal and Moti Ram, maternal uncle of Madan Lal. However, Madan’s younger brother Rakesh managed to escape and informed the police about killings. Before leaving the house, the terrorists looted the house and set ablaze Madan’s house alongwith the bodies lying there. Local people managed to shift the injured Yashpal, Madan’s brother to hospital. He told the police, two terrorists who attacked the house, looked like locals, while others were foreign mercenaries. This was the third militant attack in the village in the past one week. On December 30 night terrorists threw a grenade on a house at Choudhary Nar in Rajouri town. Police reports said heavily armed militants struck in the locality adjoining Government Degree College and knocked at the house of Trilok. When the occupants did not respond, the terrorists hurled a grenade at the window, it exploded outside the house and damaged a major portion of the house, besides injuring Trilok’s son Rakesh and his wife Ashu Bala. After the attack, terrorists had opened indiscriminate fire targeting the house. This was the first such incident in town. A group of militants descended on the village Kenkhas in Budhal area on the night of January 15 to attack the minority community. Prabhat Singh, a VDC member spotted four terrorists. He challenged the terrorists all alone and killed one of them. Other terrorists were reported to have fired back killing Prabhat and his wife Shanti Devi. Police party reached the place in the morning. A CRPF patrol party had spotted the dead bodies of the couple and the terrorist. Earlier, in a daring incident VDC member Chain Singh gunned down a terrorist in Dharamsal and thwarted an attempt to execute yet another massacre. Chain Singh after observing the movement of five terrorists took position in his house at village Dagal Halaal near Taryath. At midnight, when terrorists started firing on the houses of minority community, the VDC member immediately retaliated. He fought alone for 20 minutes and was later joined by five other VDC members. The terrorists fled after their colleague was gunned down. Doda-Udhampur Belt Following reports of heavy concentration of militants at various places in Mahore and Chenani and fearing the repeat of Pancheri type of massacre at least 25 families from Chakka Khartal area in Pancheri block of Udhampur tehsil migrated to Udhampur town or Jammu in third week of December last. Before migration, the villagers had gone to DC Udhampur to remind him of his promise to erect a police post in their village. Additional SP had promised them of providing police posts both at Tringli and Chakki Khartal area. The villagers told media persons that, “even after fifteen days after the massacre not a single police post has been erected in our area”. They added that a year before the massacre they had been telling police about the possible threat to their lives from militants but all their requests fell on the deaf ears. The villagers revealed that for the past one year the terrorists have been freely roaming in their area. The militants used to stay and have their meals at the house of either Hashim Devi Gujjar or Shia Gujjar. But when asked to send their sons across for arms training, both Hashim and Shia showed reluctance, villagers said. Hashim then trekked down to inform Pancheri Police Station. The police took no measures. Subsequently, the terrorists gunned down seven people, including four VDC members in the area. In the wake of massacre, more promises followed. Instead of setting up police post at Mudidhar, which is the hub of militancy, the police post was erected in Janwal, where it hardly has any use. Ramsu Massacre Yet another massacre was enacted at Luroo and Maligam Sonwa, a remote village near Ramsoo in Banihal on the night of January 7. Reports said a group of heavily armed terrorists went to the house of Baldev Singh, a VDC member at Luroo. When inmates of the house refused to open the door, militants hurled a grenade inside. The blast killed Baldev, his son Karan Pal and a relative, Sharda Devi. Baldev’s wife Durga Devi, daughter Mansoo, Anita Devi and SPO Surjit Singh sustained severe splinter injuries. The house was also badly damaged in the blast. The terrorists then went to nearby Maligam Sonwa, where people have, for the past few months, been sleeping in the nearby forest for fear of attacks. The militants set fire to one of the houses. The terrorists, believed to be locals, knew that the village was empty. As fire engulfed the house, the owner, Baldev Singh and his family came out of the forest. The terrorists opened fire, killing three brothers including two VDC members and causing serious injuries to 12 members of their families. While fleeing, the militants snatched away the weapons of two VDC members Chattar Singh and Bharat Singh and set ablaze five houses of minority community. The deceased were identified as Baldev Singh, Chattar Singh and Bharat Singh, all brothers and sons of late Dhian Singh. Injured included Kashu Ram, another son of Dhian Singh, Nain Singh, VDC member, Barmata Devi, Goli Devi, daughter of Bharat Singh, Romeo Devi, wife of Nain Singh, Ansa Devi wife of Chattar Singh, Koshali Devi, daughter of Dhina Singh, Darshana Devi, daughter of Nain Singh, Hoshiar Singh, son of Chattar Singh, Anuj Singh, son of Nain Singh and Dharmi Devi, daughter of Nain Singh. Reports said for more than half an hour no body in village came to their rescue. Both the villages lacked security force pickets. Information about the two carnages reached Ramban police only next morning. Reports added that at Luroo, immediately after the grenade blast VDC members took position and saved other members of the minority community. Sources said that the exchange of firing between the VDC members and the terrorists continued till next afternoon, due to delay in arrival of security forces. Later the terrorists fled away to a nearby forest area. The injured confirmed that the terrorists were speaking the local language. The villagers refused to cremate the bodies and were planning to bring the dead bodies to Ramsu town on January 8. People in Ramsu and Ramban staged massive protests and shouted slogans and burnt effigies of Mr LK Advani, Dr Farooq Abdullah and Mr Bali Ram Bhagat, BJP MLA. Senior officers of district administration attended the cremation of carnage victims at Luddu on January 8 but none of the civil or police officers visited Ukhral, where three massacred brothers were cremated by the locals, in the presence of over three thousand people. The locals had waited till late afternoon for the arrival of local officers to join the cremation. The mob also raised slogans against BJP and NC leaders, who were conspicuous by their absence at the funeral. Revealing details about Luddu carnage, Gamo Devi, wife of slain Baldev Singh said her husband alongwith other VDC members of the village fought with the terrorists from 0200 hours to 0730 hours and till then no enforcement of security forces or police had reached the village. She added, “It was due to a brave front put up by the VDC members that about 150 to 200 members of minority community in the village were saved”. Her husband fell to the terrorists’ bullets at 0600 hours. Govt Response Could these carnages have been prevented? The kith and kin of the slained villagers believe that had there been no power cuts, the two villages would not have lost seven lives. The long power cuts have rendered the communication sets to VDC members redundant. So villagers could not inform the security forces about the terrorists’ attacks. Had these sets been working, the VDC members who engaged terrorists for several hours could have called reinforcements from army post at Ukhral or police post at Ramsu. Police Chowki at Ramsu is without a telephone. Even the policemen at Kanihal post, 2 kms from Sohnwa remained unaware of the incident. It was the fourth massacre in the area. Despite this, these villages are without electricity and security pickets. About 45 families migrated from Sohnwa and Maligam villages on January 9 after the carnage. Of these 25 families belong to Maligam. The refugees have taken shelter in Ukhral. These families comprising about 300 members trekked for full day to reach Ukhral. They were demanding setting up of security forces pickets at Kot, Panchal, Sohnwa, Maligam and Gwala villages for protection of the minority community. The villagers said an army post at Sohnwa was withdrawn by authorities in September last despite resistance and protests by the local people. Army post at Sohnwa was set up following Kunda massacre. On January 12, the security forces claimed that three terrorists involved in the two massacres had been eliminated in an hour long gun-battle at Neil Parinder area in Banihal. The terrorists were identified as Abu Rizwan, resident of Trehgam, Riaz Ahmed Bhat, resident of Gagoni and Zakki Rehman, resident of Sialkot. They belonged to LeT outfit. The first two belonged to Banihal. Following strong criticism of the role of Union Home Ministry in displaying cavalier attitude to security of minority community in the strategic Doda district, officials in the ministry sought to make amends. A report said that the home ministry had decided to give grenades to VDCs in Ramsoo and Banihal areas. .303 rifles, provided to VDC members are grossly insufficient against militants’ modern weapons. The home ministry has been slow in providing assault rifles to VDC members. Police officers have said at least the grenade blasts will alert the security forces nearby. Presently, the minority community in the adjoining districts of Jammu is keeping its fingers crossed over the government response to war against the minorities by the terrorists. Kashmir Sentinel From pawan.durani at gmail.com Thu Jun 4 10:38:02 2009 From: pawan.durani at gmail.com (Pawan Durani) Date: Thu, 4 Jun 2009 10:38:02 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] India accused of complicity in deaths of Sri Lankan Tamils In-Reply-To: <47e122a70906031010k2f899350v730958204570099@mail.gmail.com> References: <379834.41347.qm@web57205.mail.re3.yahoo.com> <47e122a70906031010k2f899350v730958204570099@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <6b79f1a70906032208o484400c6td62857e90157c11a@mail.gmail.com> On Wed, Jun 3, 2009 at 10:40 PM, Inder Salim wrote: "no terrorist activity sustains itself beyond a decade or so. That has happened in Punjab and perhaps we see it happening in Kashmir as well " Inder , At times the truth does come out . Thankfully you have acknowledged that it was all about Terrorist activity in Kashmir. Welcome to Truth ! Pawan On Wed, Jun 3, 2009 at 10:40 PM, Inder Salim wrote: > Dear Kshmendra > > thanks for forward > > ever since IPKF  ( indian peace keeping force )  launched itself > against LTTE i see Indian complicity in continuum > > the fall of Tamils in Sri Lanka was bound to happen, as no terrorist > activity sustains itself beyond a decade or so. That has happened in > Punjab and perhaps we see it happening in Kashmir as well. I always > feel that 'dissent', mainly political, as and when crosses a certain > limit of violence it only helps the state to strengthen.....strangely > , after the fall of any terrorist outfit, i see erstwhile politicians > acquiring more lethal looks than before. > > there are are reasons to fear any sign which marks the defeat of these > Militants-Turned-Terrorists organizations because now the so called > main stream politicians will be armed with  many excuses to quell any > expressions that  may demand the restoration of the sensible, ....... > perhaps, because of millions of such organized state violence against > its subjects has resulted into this present mindset of Nationalism, > wherein we even see the story of human civilization, > > i see no escape for the masses, and i see no end to the possibilities > of terror outfits throwing blood on the flowery still life on our > routine canvas.  am i too pessimist ? > > We, the peaceful living entities in India have a natural consensus > against Naxals, ( a movement by landless people ) which led to  a > recent farcical arrest of Dr. Binayak Singh, and now strangely his > supporters have no choice but to be thankful to an SC Judgement that > grated him bail after two years of illegal confinement,  but the good > judges too might not be good against the a real Naxal, if arrest, just > on as flimsy grounds as Dr. Binayak Singh.....( Perhaps, former > Railway minister George Ferndese  was a Naxalite,  once )... strange > are the ways of main stream politics... > > i know it is not possible to understand these conflicts with one yard > stick. and yet we see similarities, >  and some questions arising out of that, just for curiosity > > LTTE's success would have unnerved Indian Nation State, since Tamil > Nadu too could have become part of it, if not now, but in future, but > why cant there be one exclusive Tamil country with its own language, > administration, if all the Tamils want it, why denial ? ( meanwhile, i > have no big enthusiasm for any formations of new boarders/territories, > but statuesque are proven sterile...   ) > > I know the slogan like multiculturalism etc are good for the health of > society/nation etc etc. but on the ground, Tamils in Sri Lanka were > treated as second class citizens, so why cant LTTE  be seen as a just > political expression, of course driven by obsolete protest procedures. > >  but on the other hand how deep is the relation between violence and > politics, we both know. quite paradoxical ... > > .......some  managed their territorial dissent, with their money or > modernity, where people dont see much difference between this and > that,  French managed it, Spain too , and  now main stream Iraqi  too > seems to settle down with Kurdistan within one Iraq map. there are > many examples, > > here in India too we are settled with Punjab issue, but with Kashmir > issue, i guess Indian diplomacy is still at square one? or things have > quite drifted in other direction because of ennui ... > > or you see it differently? > > with love > is > > > On Wed, Jun 3, 2009 at 3:10 PM, Kshmendra Kaul wrote: >> >> From The Times >> June 1, 2009 >> >> >> "India accused of complicity in deaths of Sri Lankan Tamils" >> >> >> >> >> >> >> Jeremy Page, South Asia Correspondent >> >> >> India was accused yesterday of complicity in the killing of an estimated 20,000 civilians in the last stages of Sri Lanka’s 26-year war against the Tamil Tigers. >> >> Major-General Ashok Mehta, a former commander of Indian peacekeeping forces in Sri Lanka, said that India’s role was “distressing and disturbing”. Two international human rights groups said that India had failed to do enough to protect civilian lives. >> >> “We were complicit in this last phase of the offensive when a great number of civilians were killed,” General Mehta, who is now retired, told The Times. “Having taken a decision to go along with the campaign, we went along with it all the way and ignored what was happening on the ground.” >> >> Despite being home to 60 million Tamils, India has provided Sri Lanka with military equipment, training and intelligence over the past three years, diplomatic sources told The Times. More controversially, it provided unwavering diplomatic support and failed to use its influence to negotiate a ceasefire for civilians to escape the front line, they said. >> >> India joined a bloc led by China and Russia at a special session of the UN Human Rights Council last week to thwart a proposal for a war crimes inquiry, and instead supported a resolution praising Sri Lanka. In January India voted in favour of a war crimes inquiry into Israel’s operation in the Gaza Strip, which killed an estimated 926 civilians. >> >> General Mehta said that the Indian Government, led by the Congress Party, wanted to counterbalance China and Pakistan, its main regional rivals, which had each increased arms sales to Sri Lanka in the past few years. It also wanted to avenge the Tigers’ assassination in 1991 of Rajiv Gandhi, the Prime Minister and late husband of Sonia Gandhi, the current Congress leader, he said. >> >> Brad Adams, Asia director of Human Rights Watch, said that neither reason justified failing to act when the Red Cross warned of an “unimaginable humanitarian catastrophe”. India “could have saved many lives if it had taken a proactive position — and it would not have affected the outcome of the war,” he said. >> >> Sam Zarifi, Asia Pacific director of Amnesty International, said: “India . . . simply chose to support the [Sri Lankan] Government’s notion that it could kill as many civilians as it would take to defeat the Tigers.” >> >> India says that it provided Sri Lanka with non-lethal military equipment and sent officials repeatedly to persuade the Government to protect civilians. “We’ve consistently taken the line that the Sri Lankan Government should prevent civilian casualties,” a Foreign Ministry spokesman said. >> >> However, President Rajapaksa of Sri Lanka told NDTV: “I don’t think I got any pressure from them. They knew that I’m fighting their war.” >> >> Mr Rajapaksa told The Week magazine that he planned to visit Delhi next month to thank Indian leaders. “India’s moral support during the war was most important,” he said. >> >> Diplomats, human rights activists and analysts say that Delhi either did not use its full diplomatic force or, more likely, gave Colombo carte blanche to finish the war. India’s only real concerns, they said, were that the conflict should not create a flood of refugees to India. Some raised questions about Vijay Nambiar, a former Indian diplomat, who is chief of staff to Ban Ki Moon, the UN Secretary-General. The Times revealed last week that Mr Nambiar knew about but chose not to make public the UN’s estimate that 20,000 civilians had been killed, mostly by army shelling. >> >> http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/world/asia/article6401557.ece >> >> >> >> >> _________________________________________ >> reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. >> Critiques & Collaborations >> To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with subscribe in the subject header. >> To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list >> List archive: > > > -- > > http://indersalim.livejournal.com > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with subscribe in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> From kmvenuannur at gmail.com Thu Jun 4 11:41:23 2009 From: kmvenuannur at gmail.com (Venugopalan K M) Date: Thu, 4 Jun 2009 11:41:23 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] The "Sickular" History In-Reply-To: <47e122a70906031026s4306fedet7bc8215387fcb271@mail.gmail.com> References: <74671.42286.qm@web57205.mail.re3.yahoo.com> <47e122a70906031026s4306fedet7bc8215387fcb271@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <1f9180970906032311q3267f0aegb48c30075c498c84@mail.gmail.com> When used by people with deeply convoluted, distorted and parochial biases against secularism , the usage sickular is sickening indeed. At least some seem to have the image of sickle (comprising the traditional symbol of communism) in their mind while they use sickularism with extreme derogation. Take for example the coinage"pseudo secularism", the credit of which goes to the Hidutwa brigade of the 1990s under the stewardship of LKA. It is far from truth to suggest that they would have appreciated 'real' secularism in the place of the allegedly 'pseudo' secularism. You take pseudo secularism to be a point of reference not to ask for the real one,but just to whip up passions and hate and ultimately to proceed to your cherished Ramrajya,where the Constitution of India would be thrown to dust bin by the irate Hindu mobs and Sadhoos and Shankaracharis would take over as law givers (Manu would be reinstated as the unchallengeable authority of law) I have yet to come across a serious usage of the term 'sickular', notwithstanding my benign curiosity toward Ksmendra's and Inder Salim's love for this coinage. With my deepest regards to Kshmendra and Inder, Venu. On Wed, Jun 3, 2009 at 10:56 PM, Inder Salim wrote: > Dear Kshmendra > > SECULAR has lot to do with profane than with sacred, lucidly. > So it is not surprising that contemporary dirty politics invents the > word Sickluar. > > in many senses than one WE ALL ARE SICKLUAR PEOPLE , and that is not a > bad category, given that fact that we can bring about a change in the > society...... there is a possibility, but  those who think they are > believers ought to study their practices, and analyze deeply how their > beliefs are sustained by this Sickluar mass. If not down to earth > believer, which is so rare, a believer is unwittingly a practising > Sickular,  So better to be a known as Sickular, consciously.... > > thanks for kissing the word SICKULAR on the cheek, i too am kissing > the other side of it. > > love > is > > On Wed, Jun 3, 2009 at 7:04 PM, Kshmendra Kaul wrote: >> My burst of "love" for the word "slacktivism" that I got introduced to today reminded me about another word which I immediately fell in love with on first seeing it. The word is "sickular". >> >> I have personally never used the word "sickular" even though in it resonates and it encompasses my own evaluations of some attitudes one sees in India. I have preffered terms like "convoluted secularism"; "hypocritical secularism"; "selective secularism". >> >> "Sickular" is a powerful word but it is too dismissive for my liking for it often brings to a sudden end any reasoned discussion that could explore opposing viewpoints on interpretaions of "secularism". >> >> But, "Sickular" is a significant word for it symbolises the attitudinal and to some extent the ideological divides that exist in India. >> >> What are the origins of this word "Sickular"? I could not find it in any dictionary, nor was Wikipedia of any help. If someone knows, please let me know. >> >> "Sickular" apppears to be an India-coined word. >> >> - The earliest usage of the word "sickular" that I could locate  from Web sources is a 2004 comment by "Anonymous" on the site "Snap Judgement"  which has content pre-dominantly in Tamil: >> >> "When our so called sickular media were shy on even touching this gory murder, you did a splendid job of bringing out the truth." >> http://snapjudge.com/2004/11/05/%E0%AE%A8%E0%AF%86%E0%AE%A4%E0%AE%B0%E0%AF%8D%E0%AE%B2%E0%AE%BE%E0%AE%A8%E0%AF%8D%E0%AE%A4%E0%AE%BF%E0%AE%A9%E0%AF%8D-%E0%AE%AE%E0%AF%88%E0%AE%95%E0%AF%8D%E0%AE%95%E0%AF%87%E0%AE%B2%E0%AF%8D-%E0%AE%AE/ >> >> >> Next after 2004, I could find use of "sickular" only in 2006. The word is seen figuring repeatedly after that in 2008 and 2009. >> >> >> - Jan 2006,  "indusAquarius" comments on the Blog "Shadow Warrior" : >> >> "This Mahesh Bhatt is among the bigwigs of the Sickular brigade." >> http://rajeev2004.blogspot.com/2006/01/british-mohammedan-preachers-vision.html >> >> >> - Feb 2006, on the same Blog, "daisies" questions "DarkStorm" : >> >> "And your daily songs of "sickular" are not sickening for anyone ?" >> http://rajeev2004.blogspot.com/2006/02/indians-as-blacks.html >> >> >> - March 2006, on the "OUTLOOKINDIA" site, in a comment, "Ramchi" says: >> >> "Only in India where Hindu temples which are under the control of sickular governments charging Hindus for praying their Gods." >> http://www.outlookindia.com/printdis_v2.asp?refer=64867&childid=64867 >> >> >> - March 2006, in the "Wisdom Blog" on the INDIATIMES site, "Ram" comments: >> >> "If not, at the first opportunity, fly out of India, leaving the country in the hands of this 'sickular' govt." >> http://o3.indiatimes.com/wisenation/archive/2006/03/29/574301.aspx >> >> >> - May 2006, on the site "Sepia Mutiny", "Gaurav" questions "Mahajan Skeptic": >> >> "In your scheme of thing I guess India was a Ram Rajya (oops, that is communal !), I meant paradise under "sickular" Congress until Devil (BJP) came and serpent (LKA) robbed Indians of innocence." >> http://209.85.229.132/search?q=cache:yGIEYP-BFs4J:www.sepiamutiny.com/sepia/archives/003334.html+%22sickular%22&cd=90&hl=en&ct=clnk&gl=ae >> >> >> - May 2006, "Blinded" comments in the "UNITED WE BLOG! FOR A DEMOCRATIC NEPAL" : >> >> "I am amazed that still you all are not aware of what is true secularism and what is happening to India due to sickular (secular) ideology!!" >> http://blog.com.np/united-we-blog/2006/05/18/no-hindu-kingdom-celebrating-secularism-in-nepal/ >> >> >> - May 2006, "SPINDIANMEDIA" titles an entry in Blog of same name: >> >> "Vir Sanghvi's "sickular" double standards on stark display" >> http://spindianmedia.blogspot.com/2006/05/vir-sanghvis-sickular-double-standards.html >> >> >> - June 2006, we have "Shmuel Kuper" commenting on what appears to be an Israeli site "CROSS CURRENTS": >> >>  "Hopefully, the readers of this forum do not belong to the brainwashed sickular public who do not care to read facts that might confuse their brainwashed mind, and will find interest in facts rather than antisemite propaganda, the “isreali” media so excels in, putting the “Jewish” state as the #1 antisemite state in the Western world." >> http://www.cross-currents.com/archives/2006/06/28/yisrael-valis-the-court-transcript/ >> >> >> - Jan 2007, on the site INDIANMUSLIMS, "Sharique" writes a piece, titling it "The SICKular parties" and writes: >> >> "Incidents like these often develop this feeling in me that would India have been in a much better position as a ‘Hindu Rashtra’ ? At least there would have been no hypocrisy on the parts of these sickular political parties" >> http://indianmuslims.in/the-sickular-parties/ >> >> >> Kshmendra >> >> >> >> >> _________________________________________ >> reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. >> Critiques & Collaborations >> To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with subscribe in the subject header. >> To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list >> List archive: > > > > -- > > http://indersalim.livejournal.com > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with subscribe in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> -- http://venukm.blogspot.com/ From monica at sarai.net Thu Jun 4 11:49:42 2009 From: monica at sarai.net (Monica Narula) Date: Thu, 4 Jun 2009 11:49:42 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Sarai Reader 08: Fear - Call for contributions Message-ID: Call for Contributions to Sarai Reader 08 : Fear I. Introducing the Sarai Reader II. Concepts and Questions for Sarai Reader 08 : Fear III. Guidelines for Submissions I. Introducing the Sarai Reader Sarai (www.sarai.net), an interdisciplinary research and practice programme at the Centre for the Study of Developing Societies, invites contributions to Sarai Reader 08: Fear. Previous Readers have included: 'The Public Domain' : Sarai Reader 01, 2001, 'The Cities of Everyday Life' : Sarai Reader 02, 2002, 'Shaping Technologies' : Sarai Reader 03, 2003, 'Crisis/Media' : Sarai Reader 04, 2004, 'Bare Acts' : Sarai Reader 05, 2005, ‘Turbulence’: Sarai Reader 06', 2006 and 'Frontiers': Sarai Reader 07, 2008. All the Sarai Readers are available for free download at http://www.sarai.net/publications/readers/ The Sarai Reader series aims at bringing together original, thoughtful, critical, reflective, well researched and provocative texts and essays and images by writers, scholars, practitioners, photographers, artists and activists, grouped under a core theme that expresses the interests of Sarai in issues that relate to the media, information and society in the contemporary world. The Sarai Readers have a wide readership, both in India and internationally. We also invite proposals to initiate and moderate discussions on the themes of the Sarai Reader 08 on the Reader List (http://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list ) with a view to the moderator(s) editing the transcripts of these discussions for publication in the Sarai Reader 08. II. Concepts for Sarai Reader 08: Fear Modernity’s great promise – the freedom from fear - now lies in ruins. One can argue that this vision was always compromised. Modernity (especially in the form that emerged in the west, under capitalism) always hid its own fears, and hid from its own fears: the fear of epidemics, of urban panic, of the homeless multitude and of criminal activity. This led to a drive for transparency: of separating the civic from the criminal, the civilized and the barbaric peoples, the human from the non-human, life and the machine. With the mass slaughters of the twentieth century where more died than ever in recorded human history, this promise lay shattered. Today, the drive for transparency has been rendered doubly difficult, with new mobile populations, new networks, and previously unimagined terrors. Sovereignty seems an antiquated slogan of the past, and in the wake of the financial shocks of 2008, there seems to be some substance in the contention that western capitalism has entered a phase of possibly long-term decline. Today's opacity brings with it a new sense of enduring fear. Not necessarily the terror of sharp and sudden shocks alone, but of the slow mutation of our lives and our times into minefields of uncertainty - personal, social and political. Does anyone any longer trust the weather, the air, the water we drink, the food we eat, the blood that courses through us? And who doesn’t have misgivings about the experts on prime-time television who talk about the trustworthiness of the value of money or the colour of our dreams. Everything, from the small talk that lubricates sociality to the small print that pads contracts, comes laden with disclaimers. While the fear of a world war may have somewhat receded, the perils of rogue nuclear attacks, of a sudden and lethal outbreak of a virus, of flash floods and freak storms, of forest fires and stampedes, of road rage and suicide bombers, of turbulence in the economy and accidents in the air constitute the counterpoint to the confidence of progress. The transmission of fear relies as much on the subtle, almost epidermal contact between human beings as it does on whispers, rumours and panic attacks orchestrated through television and the Internet. The effects of these transmissions are visible in a spectrum of situations and processes, ranging from unstable sentiments in the economy to urban myths about malevolent androids and psychopaths to apocalyptic cults to the robust return of the supernatural in popular culture in the form of new urban horror genres in cinema, gaming and comics. Lacing all this is the salt of terrorism and the so called 'war on terror’ - the two forces that have done more to generate discourses of anxiety on an everyday basis than anything hitherto known or imagined. Fear also generates its own industries, which stretch from medicine and pharmacology to insurance and engineering and architecture to surveillance and security. We use the fear of what we know to insure us from the fear of what we do not, or cannot know. A careful analysis of risk hedges the frontiers of every dream. Sarai Reader 08 is interested in these phenomena as cultural processes. We want to ask how fear and anxiety shape individual and collective dispositions, how lives and social processes are designed and invented around or against them, and what effects they have on politics, economy and life. We are interested in fear as language, as mode of communication, as a way of ordering and rendering the world. We are interested in texts that will look at the transmission, generation and processing of fear on an industrial scale, that will encompass mechanisms designed either to allay or intensify fear or ratchet up and down levels of anxiety or the feeling of security. A broad range of interests could be: 1. The experience of fear as a somatic, epidermal, sensate phenomenon. Fear as experienced in confinement and fear in situations of mass panic, social hysteria, stampedes, riots etc. 2. The relationship between fear and laughter, between fear and the uncanny, between fear and ennui. 3. Anxieties and dangers to do with industrial processes, with machines, with automobiles and aircraft and the fear of accidents 4. Fear as political communication, the relationship between fear, the discourse of security, terrorism and authoritarianism. 5. The popular culture of paranoia in films, television, advertisement and literature. 7. The fear of nature running amok, or the revenge of nature. 8. Fear and foreboding in speculation and economic downturn. 9. The abiding presence of vampires, aliens, ghosts and monsters. 10. How does the design of everything from cities to houses to cars to computers account for fear, risk and the chances of damage? 11. The cultivation of risk, danger and fearlessness in extreme sports, stunts, financial speculation, bravado and cultures of physical and spiritual heroism. 12. The relationship between fear, anger and hatred. 13. Agendas and manifestos, renewing the call for freedom from fear, or anticipating things we should worry about. The form that contributions can take can be varied. We want to invite practitioners and others some of whom may be audacious even as others may be tentative, wherever in the world they may be located, whether they are located in the domains of theory, research, contemporary art, media, information and software design, politics or commentary to join us in Sarai Reader 08. You are invited to contribute through essays, dialogues, arguments, interviews, photographs, image-text combinations, comics, art-works, diary entries, research reports, commentaries and manifestos that can evoke responses to an investigation of fear in all its myriad dimensions. We have always viewed the Sarai Reader as hospitable to new and unprecedented ideas, as a space of refuge where wayward reflections can meet half-forgotten agendas. This is why we see it possible to imagine Sarai Reader 08 as setting the stage for a productive encounter with the demand for an account of the limits, margins and edges of our times. III. Guidelines for Submissions Word Limit: 1000 to 3500 words 1. Submissions may be scholarly, journalistic, or literary - or a mix of these, in the form of essays, papers, interviews, online discussions or diary entries. All submission, unless specifically solicited, must be in English only. 2. Submissions must be sent by email in text, as rtf, or as word document or open office attachments. Images must be in black and white, 300 dpi, and in the tif format. 3.We urge all writers to follow the Chicago Manual of Style, (CMS) in terms of footnotes, annotations and references. For more details about the CMS and an updated list of Frequently Asked Questions, see http://www.press.uchicago.edu/Misc/Chicago/cmosfaq/cmosfaq.html For a 'Quick Reference Guide to the Chicago Manual of Style' - especially relevant for citation style, see - http://www.library.wwu.edu/ref/Refhome/chicago.html 4. All contributions must be accompanied by a three/four line text introducing the author, including a working email id. 5. All submissions will be read by the editorial collective of the Sarai Reader 08 before the final selection is made. The editorial collective reserves the right not to publish any material sent to it for publication in the Sarai Reader on stylistic or editorial grounds. All contributors will be informed of the final decisions of the editorial collective vis a vis their contribution. 6. Copyright for all accepted contributions will remain with the authors, but Sarai reserves indefinitely the right to place any of the material accepted for publication on the public domain in print or electronic forms, and on the Internet. 7. Accepted submissions will not be paid for, but authors are guaranteed a wide international readership. The Reader will be published in print, distributed in India and internationally, and will also be uploaded in a pdf form on to the Sarai website. All contributors whose work has been accepted for publication will receive two copies of the Reader. IV. Where and When to send your Contributions Last date for submission of Abstracts by 30th July, 2009. (A brief outline/abstract, not more than one page, of what you want to write about ) Last date of submission of Essays or works by 15th October, 2009. Expect the reader to be published by February 2010. Please send in your outlines and abstracts, and images/graphic material to - 1. (for articles) to Editorial, Sarai Reader 08 2. (for proposals to moderate online discussions on the Reader List) to - Monica Narula, List Administrator, the Reader List 3. (for images and/or graphic material) to Iram Ghufran, Media Lab, Sarai-CSDS Monica Narula Raqs Media Collective Sarai-CSDS www.raqsmediacollective.net www.sarai.net From kaksanjay at gmail.com Thu Jun 4 11:52:35 2009 From: kaksanjay at gmail.com (Sanjay Kak) Date: Thu, 4 Jun 2009 11:52:35 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] =?windows-1252?q?=91As_Hindus=2C_We_Were_Expected_T?= =?windows-1252?q?o_Further_The_Cause_With_Our_Stories=92?= Message-ID: <5c5369880906032322h52bc9d5fwb1a3953cf94096af@mail.gmail.com> As an 'insider' account of the workings of India's mainstream press, and its professionalism and politics, this is a most valuable account. Best Sanjay Kak >From Tehelka Magazine, Vol 6, Issue 22, Dated Jun 06, 2009 CULTURE & SOCIETY personal histories ‘As Hindus, We Were Expected To Further The Cause With Our Stories’ Simple M Pani Is 32. She is a journalist based in New Delhi Illustration: UZMA MOHSIN EVERY YEAR, I look starry-eyed at the awardees of the Ramnath Goenka Excellence in Journalism Awards and at the stalwarts handing over the honours. For grit, hard work, tenacity and honesty to the trade, without a care for reward, getting richly rewarded. But this year, I couldn’t quell a queasy feeling in my stomach when the virtues of fair reporting were spoken about at the event. This has been happening since the Amarnath land agitation, when I was reporting for the Jammu bureau of a leading national daily. It visited Jammu like a gale, sweeping away in gusts the sense of fair play and discrimination of many scribes. In our morning meetings, it was assumed as a given that being Hindus, we (reporters, photojournalists and other staff) supported the agitation for restoration of land to the Amarnath Shrine Board. Not only were we expected to support it whole-heartedly but it was considered our ‘moral’ duty to further its cause through our stories. It was routine for our editor to ask, “So how is the agitation faring in xyz place?” and an over-zealous colleague to answer passionately, “Excellent. It’s got a tremendous response there” and for the editor to rub his chin and say, “But find out what challenges they are facing in abc place and how it could be strengthened there.” If you were in Jammu, you had to sing paeans to the agitators. What smacked of fascism was that no other line of thinking, let alone criticism of any sort, was brooked. The few media houses that did judge it critically, were a woeful minority. Two quixotic features of the agitation stood out. First, to refuse to recognise the real. To pretend not to see something as stark as an economic blockade of the Valley, imposed by the stone-pelting agitators by attacking and burning Valley-bound trucks. (I’ve seen trucks burnt to rubble by agitators, on the Jammu-Pathankote National Highway, but naturally, it wasn’t considered newsworthy in several publications because the Jammu media had decided there was no blockade. This assumption ruled out any question of trucks being attacked.) This kind of dangerous, deductive logic crafting an alternative reality was rampant at the time. The storyline would be decided in the office and reporters would be asked to select data from the field to support it. For instance, to prove the nonexistence of a blockade, we would be asked to report that medicines were available in plenty in Jammu. If there were a blockade, then Jammu would be equally hit, ran the specious logic. In reality, Jammu faced a severe shortage of medicines! Second, to fancy the unreal as real, by drawing parallels between itself and the India’s Freedom Movement. Like praising the Emperor’s new clothes, which despite any empirical reality, were extolled to the skies. Eulogies of “those brave, nationalist, heroes,” the agitators, who went about uprooting railway tracks, smashing windows of public transport that dared to ply on the roads in defiance of the bandh call, and violently attacking trucks entering the state, filled reams of newsprint every day. Strangely, the mute common man of Jammu, the poor news vendor and hawker on the streets seemed to be more discerning than the city’s intelligentsia. They knew that there was much more to nationalism than flag-waving xenophobia. That sporting a ‘Bhagat Singh moustache’ wasn’t enough to equate one with the martyr. They knew that vandalism couldn’t pass for bravery and that they would have to repay the loss caused to the state from their pockets; all of which the intelligentsia missed, in a misplaced fervour. Despite the claim that the struggle was solely for the restoration of land to the Amarnath Shrine Board, the fact is it did degenerate into hate for the ‘other.’ Gujjars’ kullas were burnt in hundreds. The word “Kashmir” was knocked off from the Kashmir Square Mall, a Delhi-style mall in town, and was rechristened ‘City Square Mall.’ Such sentiments are dangerous for any civilised society, more so when the media, the supposed watchdog of liberal values, is gung-ho about it. >From Tehelka Magazine, Vol 6, Issue 22, Dated Jun 06, 2009 From bangalorefilmsociety at gmail.com Thu Jun 4 13:03:38 2009 From: bangalorefilmsociety at gmail.com (Bangalore Film Society ,) Date: Thu, 4 Jun 2009 13:03:38 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Call for Entry: Voices from the Waters 2009 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: *Call For Entries* *Voices from the Waters 2009* *4th International Water Film Festival, Bangalore* * * Bangalore Film Society, Arghyam, Svaraj- Society for Voluntary Action Revitalization and Justice, Finger Lakes Environmental Film Festival, Ithaca College, USA (FLEFF) Mountainfilm in Telluride, USA, Alliance Francaise de Bangalore, Charter of Human Responsibilities and Water Journeys - Campaign for Fundamental Right to Water with the support of Max Mueller Bhavan, Bangalore are organizing the fourth edition of the biggest international film festival on water- Voices from the Waters 2009 from Friday 4thSeptember, 2009 to Monday 7 th September, 2009. Established in 2005 to promote among the public an awareness of the myriad water-issues affecting our everyday lives either directly or indirectly and as a platform for alternate voices and views rarely heard in mainstream, Voices from the Waters started as a Bangalore-based Environmental Film Festival and over the 2007 and 2008 editions grew to be one of the largest, most diverse and dynamic platforms of debate, dialogue and celebration of the precious resource, the blue gold, life itself - water. We invite you to be a part of the festival by contributing short, documentary, animation and feature films (DVD format only) with English subtitles on water and related issues. *If you have a film in under any of the following categories:* 1. Water Scarcity, 2. The Dams and the Displaced, 3. Water Harvest, 4. Water Struggles/conflicts, 5. Floods and Droughts, 6. Global Warming and Climate Change, 7. Impact of Deforestation on Water Bodies, 8. Water, Sanitation and health, 9. River Pollution, 10. The Holistic Revival of Water Bodies, 11. Water and Life You can consider sending it to us. Please note that the categories are loosely conceived and your film does not have to necessarily adhere to them while focusing on the larger theme of water. Please find the entry form at www.voicesfromthewaters.com *Submission Deadline: 31st July 2009* *Guidelines:* Entries to the Film Festival must include 1. DVD of the film (with English subtitles, if required) 2. A completed and signed copy of the entry form 3. 3 high-resolution stills of the film (can be sent via email) 4. A high-resolution photograph of the director (can be sent via email) Promotional materials are welcome. There is no entry fee. All submitted films will be subject to a selection process by eminent members of the festival jury. Applicant must pay for shipment of films to Voices from the Waters. Submitted films will not be returned but will be part of Voices from the Waters library, one of the largest resources in the world for films on water. Voices from the Waters is conceived as a traveling film festival. The selected films after being premiered in Bangalore at the main event will be taken across to educational institutions, non governmental organizations, small towns and villages across India. From jeebesh at sarai.net Thu Jun 4 14:08:23 2009 From: jeebesh at sarai.net (Jeebesh) Date: Thu, 4 Jun 2009 14:08:23 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Lens: Tank Man of Tiananmen Message-ID: <37B47926-A6D0-4DFB-9382-C7117EF49FD0@sarai.net> Lens: Tank Man of Tiananmen There are actually four versions of the iconic photo from the Beijing protests that took place 20 years ago. http://lens.blogs.nytimes.com/2009/06/03/behind-the-scenes-tank-man-of-tiananmen/?8au&emc=au From pawan.durani at gmail.com Thu Jun 4 14:19:53 2009 From: pawan.durani at gmail.com (Pawan Durani) Date: Thu, 4 Jun 2009 14:19:53 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Urgent Warden Message Message-ID: <6b79f1a70906040149o484ffff1j32fa23f2d04fb5cc@mail.gmail.com> "effect of Hafiz Sayed being set free in Pakistan" June 2, 2009 The United States Mission in India wishes to *urgently *remind all U.S. citizens resident in or traveling to India that there is a high threat from terrorism throughout India. As terror attacks are a serious and growing threat, U.S. citizens are urged to always practice good security, including maintaining a heightened situational awareness and a low profile. Americans in India should be vigilant at all times and monitor local news reports and vary their routes and times in carrying out daily activities. Americans should consider the level of security present when visiting public places, including religious sites, or choosing hotels, restaurants, entertainment and recreation venues. For the latest security information, Americans traveling abroad should regularly monitor the Department's Internet web site at http://travel.state.gov where the current Worldwide Caution, Travel Warnings, and Travel Alerts can be found. Up-to-date information on security can also be obtained by calling 1-888-407-4747 toll free in the United States and Canada or, for callers outside the United States and Canada, a regular toll line at 1-202-501-4444. These numbers are available from 8:00 a.m. to 8:00 p.m. Eastern Time, Monday through Friday (except U.S. federal holidays). Americans are also encouraged to read the Country Specific Information for India, available on the Embassy's website at http://newdelhi.usembassy.gov, and also at http://travel.state.gov. U.S. citizens living or traveling abroad are encouraged to register with the nearest U.S. Embassy or Consulate through the State Department's travel registration web site at https://travelregistration.state.gov/ibrs/ui/ so that they can obtain updated information on travel and security. Americans without Internet access may register directly with the nearest U.S. Embassy or Consulate. By registering, American citizens make it easier for the Embassy or Consulate to contact them in case of emergency. For additional information, please refer to "A Safe Trip Abroad" found at http://travel.state.gov. U.S. citizens may contact the American Citizens Services Unit of the Embassy or the Consulates General for further information: -- The U.S. Embassy in New Delhi is located at Shanti Path, Chanakya Puri 110021; telephone +91-11-2419-8000; fax +91-11-2419-8407. The Embassy's Internet home page address is http://newdelhi.usembassy.gov. -- The U.S. Consulate General in Mumbai (Bombay) is located at Lincoln House, 78 Bhulabhai Desai Road, 400026, telephone +91-22-2363-3611; fax +91-22-2363-0350. The Internet home page address is http://mumbai.usconsulate.gov. -- The U.S. Consulate General in Chennai (Madras) is at 220 Anna Salai, Gemini Circle, 600006, telephone +91-44-2857-4000; fax +91-44-2811-2027. The Internet home page address is http://chennai.usconsulate.gov. -- The U.S. Consulate General in Kolkata (Calcutta) is at 5/1 Ho Chi Minh Sarani, 700071; telephone +91-33-3984-2400; fax +91-33-2282-2335. The Internet home page address is http://kolkata.usconsulate.gov. -- The U.S. Consulate General in Hyderabad is at Paigah Palace, 1-8-323, Chiran Fort Lane, Begumpet, Secunderabad 500 003; telephone: +91 (40) 4033-8300. The Internet home page address is http://hyderabad.usconsulate.gov. From kshmendra2005 at yahoo.com Thu Jun 4 15:25:38 2009 From: kshmendra2005 at yahoo.com (Kshmendra Kaul) Date: Thu, 4 Jun 2009 02:55:38 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Reader-list] Lens: Tank Man of Tiananmen Message-ID: <810375.57275.qm@web57206.mail.re3.yahoo.com> Dear Jeebesh   Studying the 4 pics together and the varying positions of the tanks with respect to the lane markings, the bus and the shadows, an interesting story develops of the distance the tanks moved with the Tank Man in front of them. Thanks for link.   Kshmendra  --- On Thu, 6/4/09, Jeebesh wrote: From: Jeebesh Subject: [Reader-list] Lens: Tank Man of Tiananmen To: "sarai list" Date: Thursday, June 4, 2009, 2:08 PM Lens: Tank Man of Tiananmen There are actually four versions of the iconic photo from the Beijing  protests that took place 20 years ago. http://lens.blogs.nytimes.com/2009/06/03/behind-the-scenes-tank-man-of-tiananmen/?8au&emc=au _________________________________________ reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. Critiques & Collaborations To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with subscribe in the subject header. To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> From kshmendra2005 at yahoo.com Thu Jun 4 16:43:23 2009 From: kshmendra2005 at yahoo.com (Kshmendra Kaul) Date: Thu, 4 Jun 2009 04:13:23 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Reader-list] The "Sickular" History Message-ID: <753983.28292.qm@web57201.mail.re3.yahoo.com> Dear Venugopalan   A few comments, a few digressions.   - As things stand, it would be foolish for the 'sickle' to be associated with 'communism' in India, for if the "Left" are 'communists' they have almost totally ignored those who wield the "sickle" in India. In that perhaps is some clue for the stagnation and/or decline of the political presence of the "Left" in India.   - But, you have given an interesting spin on the "SICK" in "sickular" being linked to "SICKle". You have added a dimension to the word though I did not (in my brief research) see that exclusive connection being highlighted.   - My 'falling in love with" the word "sickular" comes from my fascination with roots of words and how words gain currency (and the altering that takes place in their recognised meanings through time).   - As I said earlier, I do not use the word "sickular" and I stated the reasons why not. But I will not ignore the powerful statement the word "sickular" makes and it's significance in symbolising the attitudinal and (in some ways) ideological divides in India.   - You seemed to have missed out on a reference I gave about the word "sickular" being used by Muslims too.   - I would suggest that attempts be made to understand the reasons why people use the word "sickular" rather than shutting ones eyes with the dismissal that it is "used by people with deeply convoluted, distorted and parochial biases against secularism"   - The word "pseudo-secular" (I am told by Wikipedia) has first recorded usage by Padre Anthony Elenjimittam in his 1951 book "  Philosophy and Action of the R. S. S. for the Hind Swaraj". It appears that he used it against the Congress.   - There is much to be said in favour of the need for some forms of (limited) employment of "positive discrimination" or "affirmative action" in India. But beyond that, one often sees attitudes of "convoluted secularism"; "hypocritical secularism"; "selective secularism". For those I find the word "pseudo-secular" applies itself aptly   - Dont you think that when BJP professes that it is a "secular" party that it is "pseudo-secularism"?       The more we put others in compartments in our mind, the more our own mind gets confined to a closed compartment.   Kshmendra    --- On Thu, 6/4/09, Venugopalan K M wrote: From: Venugopalan K M Subject: Re: [Reader-list] The "Sickular" History To: "sarai-list" Date: Thursday, June 4, 2009, 11:41 AM When used by people with deeply convoluted, distorted and parochial biases against secularism , the usage sickular is sickening indeed. At least some seem to have the image of sickle (comprising the traditional symbol of communism) in their mind while they use sickularism with extreme derogation. Take for example the coinage"pseudo secularism", the credit of which goes to the Hidutwa brigade of the 1990s under the stewardship of LKA.  It is far from truth to suggest that  they would have appreciated 'real' secularism in the place of the allegedly 'pseudo' secularism. You take pseudo secularism to be a point of reference not to ask for the real one,but just to whip up passions and hate and ultimately to proceed to your cherished Ramrajya,where the Constitution of India would be thrown to dust bin by the irate Hindu mobs and Sadhoos and Shankaracharis would take over as law givers (Manu would be reinstated as the unchallengeable authority of law) I have yet to come across a serious usage of the term 'sickular', notwithstanding my benign curiosity  toward Ksmendra's and Inder Salim's love for this coinage. With my deepest regards to Kshmendra and Inder, Venu. On Wed, Jun 3, 2009 at 10:56 PM, Inder Salim wrote: > Dear Kshmendra > > SECULAR has lot to do with profane than with sacred, lucidly. > So it is not surprising that contemporary dirty politics invents the > word Sickluar. > > in many senses than one WE ALL ARE SICKLUAR PEOPLE , and that is not a > bad category, given that fact that we can bring about a change in the > society...... there is a possibility, but  those who think they are > believers ought to study their practices, and analyze deeply how their > beliefs are sustained by this Sickluar mass. If not down to earth > believer, which is so rare, a believer is unwittingly a practising > Sickular,  So better to be a known as Sickular, consciously.... > > thanks for kissing the word SICKULAR on the cheek, i too am kissing > the other side of it. > > love > is > > On Wed, Jun 3, 2009 at 7:04 PM, Kshmendra Kaul wrote: >> My burst of "love" for the word "slacktivism" that I got introduced to today reminded me about another word which I immediately fell in love with on first seeing it. The word is "sickular". >> >> I have personally never used the word "sickular" even though in it resonates and it encompasses my own evaluations of some attitudes one sees in India. I have preffered terms like "convoluted secularism"; "hypocritical secularism"; "selective secularism". >> >> "Sickular" is a powerful word but it is too dismissive for my liking for it often brings to a sudden end any reasoned discussion that could explore opposing viewpoints on interpretaions of "secularism". >> >> But, "Sickular" is a significant word for it symbolises the attitudinal and to some extent the ideological divides that exist in India. >> >> What are the origins of this word "Sickular"? I could not find it in any dictionary, nor was Wikipedia of any help. If someone knows, please let me know. >> >> "Sickular" apppears to be an India-coined word. >> >> - The earliest usage of the word "sickular" that I could locate  from Web sources is a 2004 comment by "Anonymous" on the site "Snap Judgement"  which has content pre-dominantly in Tamil: >> >> "When our so called sickular media were shy on even touching this gory murder, you did a splendid job of bringing out the truth." >> http://snapjudge.com/2004/11/05/%E0%AE%A8%E0%AF%86%E0%AE%A4%E0%AE%B0%E0%AF%8D%E0%AE%B2%E0%AE%BE%E0%AE%A8%E0%AF%8D%E0%AE%A4%E0%AE%BF%E0%AE%A9%E0%AF%8D-%E0%AE%AE%E0%AF%88%E0%AE%95%E0%AF%8D%E0%AE%95%E0%AF%87%E0%AE%B2%E0%AF%8D-%E0%AE%AE/ >> >> >> Next after 2004, I could find use of "sickular" only in 2006. The word is seen figuring repeatedly after that in 2008 and 2009. >> >> >> - Jan 2006,  "indusAquarius" comments on the Blog "Shadow Warrior" : >> >> "This Mahesh Bhatt is among the bigwigs of the Sickular brigade." >> http://rajeev2004.blogspot.com/2006/01/british-mohammedan-preachers-vision.html >> >> >> - Feb 2006, on the same Blog, "daisies" questions "DarkStorm" : >> >> "And your daily songs of "sickular" are not sickening for anyone ?" >> http://rajeev2004.blogspot.com/2006/02/indians-as-blacks.html >> >> >> - March 2006, on the "OUTLOOKINDIA" site, in a comment, "Ramchi" says: >> >> "Only in India where Hindu temples which are under the control of sickular governments charging Hindus for praying their Gods." >> http://www.outlookindia.com/printdis_v2.asp?refer=64867&childid=64867 >> >> >> - March 2006, in the "Wisdom Blog" on the INDIATIMES site, "Ram" comments: >> >> "If not, at the first opportunity, fly out of India, leaving the country in the hands of this 'sickular' govt." >> http://o3.indiatimes.com/wisenation/archive/2006/03/29/574301.aspx >> >> >> - May 2006, on the site "Sepia Mutiny", "Gaurav" questions "Mahajan Skeptic": >> >> "In your scheme of thing I guess India was a Ram Rajya (oops, that is communal !), I meant paradise under "sickular" Congress until Devil (BJP) came and serpent (LKA) robbed Indians of innocence." >> http://209.85.229.132/search?q=cache:yGIEYP-BFs4J:www.sepiamutiny.com/sepia/archives/003334.html+%22sickular%22&cd=90&hl=en&ct=clnk&gl=ae >> >> >> - May 2006, "Blinded" comments in the "UNITED WE BLOG! FOR A DEMOCRATIC NEPAL" : >> >> "I am amazed that still you all are not aware of what is true secularism and what is happening to India due to sickular (secular) ideology!!" >> http://blog.com.np/united-we-blog/2006/05/18/no-hindu-kingdom-celebrating-secularism-in-nepal/ >> >> >> - May 2006, "SPINDIANMEDIA" titles an entry in Blog of same name: >> >> "Vir Sanghvi's "sickular" double standards on stark display" >> http://spindianmedia.blogspot.com/2006/05/vir-sanghvis-sickular-double-standards.html >> >> >> - June 2006, we have "Shmuel Kuper" commenting on what appears to be an Israeli site "CROSS CURRENTS": >> >>  "Hopefully, the readers of this forum do not belong to the brainwashed sickular public who do not care to read facts that might confuse their brainwashed mind, and will find interest in facts rather than antisemite propaganda, the “isreali” media so excels in, putting the “Jewish” state as the #1 antisemite state in the Western world." >> http://www.cross-currents.com/archives/2006/06/28/yisrael-valis-the-court-transcript/ >> >> >> - Jan 2007, on the site INDIANMUSLIMS, "Sharique" writes a piece, titling it "The SICKular parties" and writes: >> >> "Incidents like these often develop this feeling in me that would India have been in a much better position as a ‘Hindu Rashtra’ ? At least there would have been no hypocrisy on the parts of these sickular political parties" >> http://indianmuslims.in/the-sickular-parties/ >> >> >> Kshmendra >> >> >> >> >> _________________________________________ >> reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. >> Critiques & Collaborations >> To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with subscribe in the subject header. >> To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list >> List archive: > > > > -- > > http://indersalim.livejournal.com > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with subscribe in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> -- http://venukm.blogspot.com/ _________________________________________ reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. Critiques & Collaborations To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with subscribe in the subject header. To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> From kauladityaraj at gmail.com Thu Jun 4 16:48:43 2009 From: kauladityaraj at gmail.com (Aditya Raj Kaul) Date: Thu, 4 Jun 2009 16:48:43 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] =?windows-1252?q?=91As_Hindus=2C_We_Were_Expected_T?= =?windows-1252?q?o_Further_The_Cause_With_Our_Stories=92?= In-Reply-To: <5c5369880906032322h52bc9d5fwb1a3953cf94096af@mail.gmail.com> References: <5c5369880906032322h52bc9d5fwb1a3953cf94096af@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <6353c690906040418j17f44fe4q2ad526a3b4af6eff@mail.gmail.com> Wonder how many days the so called "ïnsider" has worked in Jammu. Sitting in the air conditioned office and filing stories is an altogether different deal. She seems to have not left the four walls or else confined herself to Orissa. The Jammu based media friends deny this allegation. This includes her colleagues in the newspaper she worked for. The National media was anyway openly biased against the Jammu agitation against religious propaganda initiated by PDP and separatist elements. Simple M Pani should join Kak 'sahab' in documentary making. The "valuable insider account" (well thought, infact) may just lead to another well funded propaganda masala movie. Such immature tales put the media to shame. Horrible. On Thu, Jun 4, 2009 at 11:52 AM, Sanjay Kak wrote: > As an 'insider' account of the workings of India's mainstream press, > and its professionalism and politics, this is a most valuable account. > Best > Sanjay Kak > > > From Tehelka Magazine, Vol 6, Issue 22, Dated Jun 06, 2009 > CULTURE & SOCIETY > personal histories > > ‘As Hindus, We Were Expected To Further The Cause With Our Stories’ > > Simple M Pani > Is 32. She is a journalist based in New Delhi > > Illustration: UZMA MOHSIN > > EVERY YEAR, I look starry-eyed at the awardees of the Ramnath Goenka > Excellence in Journalism Awards and at the stalwarts handing over the > honours. For grit, hard work, tenacity and honesty to the trade, > without a care for reward, getting richly rewarded. But this year, I > couldn’t quell a queasy feeling in my stomach when the virtues of fair > reporting were spoken about at the event. This has been happening > since the Amarnath land agitation, when I was reporting for the Jammu > bureau of a leading national daily. It visited Jammu like a gale, > sweeping away in gusts the sense of fair play and discrimination of > many scribes. In our morning meetings, it was assumed as a given that > being Hindus, we (reporters, photojournalists and other staff) > supported the agitation for restoration of land to the Amarnath Shrine > Board. Not only were we expected to support it whole-heartedly but it > was considered our ‘moral’ duty to further its cause through our > stories. It was routine for our editor to ask, “So how is the > agitation faring in xyz place?” and an over-zealous colleague to > answer passionately, “Excellent. It’s got a tremendous response there” > and for the editor to rub his chin and say, “But find out what > challenges they are facing in abc place and how it could be > strengthened there.” If you were in Jammu, you had to sing paeans to > the agitators. What smacked of fascism was that no other line of > thinking, let alone criticism of any sort, was brooked. The few media > houses that did judge it critically, were a woeful minority. > > Two quixotic features of the agitation stood out. First, to refuse to > recognise the real. To pretend not to see something as stark as an > economic blockade of the Valley, imposed by the stone-pelting > agitators by attacking and burning Valley-bound trucks. (I’ve seen > trucks burnt to rubble by agitators, on the Jammu-Pathankote National > Highway, but naturally, it wasn’t considered newsworthy in several > publications because the Jammu media had decided there was no > blockade. This assumption ruled out any question of trucks being > attacked.) This kind of dangerous, deductive logic crafting an > alternative reality was rampant at the time. The storyline would be > decided in the office and reporters would be asked to select data from > the field to support it. For instance, to prove the nonexistence of a > blockade, we would be asked to report that medicines were available in > plenty in Jammu. If there were a blockade, then Jammu would be equally > hit, ran the specious logic. In reality, Jammu faced a severe shortage > of medicines! > > Second, to fancy the unreal as real, by drawing parallels between > itself and the India’s Freedom Movement. Like praising the Emperor’s > new clothes, which despite any empirical reality, were extolled to the > skies. Eulogies of “those brave, nationalist, heroes,” the agitators, > who went about uprooting railway tracks, smashing windows of public > transport that dared to ply on the roads in defiance of the bandh > call, and violently attacking trucks entering the state, filled reams > of newsprint every day. Strangely, the mute common man of Jammu, the > poor news vendor and hawker on the streets seemed to be more > discerning than the city’s intelligentsia. They knew that there was > much more to nationalism than flag-waving xenophobia. That sporting a > ‘Bhagat Singh moustache’ wasn’t enough to equate one with the martyr. > They knew that vandalism couldn’t pass for bravery and that they would > have to repay the loss caused to the state from their pockets; all of > which the intelligentsia missed, in a misplaced fervour. > > Despite the claim that the struggle was solely for the restoration of > land to the Amarnath Shrine Board, the fact is it did degenerate into > hate for the ‘other.’ Gujjars’ kullas were burnt in hundreds. The word > “Kashmir” was knocked off from the Kashmir Square Mall, a Delhi-style > mall in town, and was rechristened ‘City Square Mall.’ Such sentiments > are dangerous for any civilised society, more so when the media, the > supposed watchdog of liberal values, is gung-ho about it. > > From Tehelka Magazine, Vol 6, Issue 22, Dated Jun 06, 2009 > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > subscribe in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> -- Aditya Raj Kaul Freelance Correspondent, The Times of India Cell - +91-9873297834 Blog: http://activistsdiary.blogspot.com/ From rajen786uppinangady at gmail.com Thu Jun 4 17:41:32 2009 From: rajen786uppinangady at gmail.com (Rajendra Bhat Uppinangadi) Date: Thu, 4 Jun 2009 17:41:32 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] =?windows-1252?q?=91As_Hindus=2C_We_Were_Expected_T?= =?windows-1252?q?o_Further_The_Cause_With_Our_Stories=92?= In-Reply-To: <5c5369880906032322h52bc9d5fwb1a3953cf94096af@mail.gmail.com> References: <5c5369880906032322h52bc9d5fwb1a3953cf94096af@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <7271ec560906040511j2c806f06g4abf9804ce61c031@mail.gmail.com> Simple is simply frustrated because her imagination and reportage did not get the award.? On Thu, Jun 4, 2009 at 11:52 AM, Sanjay Kak wrote: > As an 'insider' account of the workings of India's mainstream press, > and its professionalism and politics, this is a most valuable account. > Best > Sanjay Kak > > > From Tehelka Magazine, Vol 6, Issue 22, Dated Jun 06, 2009 > CULTURE & SOCIETY > personal histories > > ‘As Hindus, We Were Expected To Further The Cause With Our Stories’ > > Simple M Pani > Is 32. She is a journalist based in New Delhi > > Illustration: UZMA MOHSIN > > EVERY YEAR, I look starry-eyed at the awardees of the Ramnath Goenka > Excellence in Journalism Awards and at the stalwarts handing over the > honours. For grit, hard work, tenacity and honesty to the trade, > without a care for reward, getting richly rewarded. But this year, I > couldn’t quell a queasy feeling in my stomach when the virtues of fair > reporting were spoken about at the event. This has been happening > since the Amarnath land agitation, when I was reporting for the Jammu > bureau of a leading national daily. It visited Jammu like a gale, > sweeping away in gusts the sense of fair play and discrimination of > many scribes. In our morning meetings, it was assumed as a given that > being Hindus, we (reporters, photojournalists and other staff) > supported the agitation for restoration of land to the Amarnath Shrine > Board. Not only were we expected to support it whole-heartedly but it > was considered our ‘moral’ duty to further its cause through our > stories. It was routine for our editor to ask, “So how is the > agitation faring in xyz place?” and an over-zealous colleague to > answer passionately, “Excellent. It’s got a tremendous response there” > and for the editor to rub his chin and say, “But find out what > challenges they are facing in abc place and how it could be > strengthened there.” If you were in Jammu, you had to sing paeans to > the agitators. What smacked of fascism was that no other line of > thinking, let alone criticism of any sort, was brooked. The few media > houses that did judge it critically, were a woeful minority. > > Two quixotic features of the agitation stood out. First, to refuse to > recognise the real. To pretend not to see something as stark as an > economic blockade of the Valley, imposed by the stone-pelting > agitators by attacking and burning Valley-bound trucks. (I’ve seen > trucks burnt to rubble by agitators, on the Jammu-Pathankote National > Highway, but naturally, it wasn’t considered newsworthy in several > publications because the Jammu media had decided there was no > blockade. This assumption ruled out any question of trucks being > attacked.) This kind of dangerous, deductive logic crafting an > alternative reality was rampant at the time. The storyline would be > decided in the office and reporters would be asked to select data from > the field to support it. For instance, to prove the nonexistence of a > blockade, we would be asked to report that medicines were available in > plenty in Jammu. If there were a blockade, then Jammu would be equally > hit, ran the specious logic. In reality, Jammu faced a severe shortage > of medicines! > > Second, to fancy the unreal as real, by drawing parallels between > itself and the India’s Freedom Movement. Like praising the Emperor’s > new clothes, which despite any empirical reality, were extolled to the > skies. Eulogies of “those brave, nationalist, heroes,” the agitators, > who went about uprooting railway tracks, smashing windows of public > transport that dared to ply on the roads in defiance of the bandh > call, and violently attacking trucks entering the state, filled reams > of newsprint every day. Strangely, the mute common man of Jammu, the > poor news vendor and hawker on the streets seemed to be more > discerning than the city’s intelligentsia. They knew that there was > much more to nationalism than flag-waving xenophobia. That sporting a > ‘Bhagat Singh moustache’ wasn’t enough to equate one with the martyr. > They knew that vandalism couldn’t pass for bravery and that they would > have to repay the loss caused to the state from their pockets; all of > which the intelligentsia missed, in a misplaced fervour. > > Despite the claim that the struggle was solely for the restoration of > land to the Amarnath Shrine Board, the fact is it did degenerate into > hate for the ‘other.’ Gujjars’ kullas were burnt in hundreds. The word > “Kashmir” was knocked off from the Kashmir Square Mall, a Delhi-style > mall in town, and was rechristened ‘City Square Mall.’ Such sentiments > are dangerous for any civilised society, more so when the media, the > supposed watchdog of liberal values, is gung-ho about it. > > From Tehelka Magazine, Vol 6, Issue 22, Dated Jun 06, 2009 > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > subscribe in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> -- Rajen. From kshmendra2005 at yahoo.com Thu Jun 4 18:48:59 2009 From: kshmendra2005 at yahoo.com (Kshmendra Kaul) Date: Thu, 4 Jun 2009 06:18:59 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Reader-list] =?utf-8?q?The_Women_of_Swat_and_=E2=80=98Mullah_Rad?= =?utf-8?b?aW/igJk=?= Message-ID: <609939.72143.qm@web57205.mail.re3.yahoo.com> This is a report based on conversations with Pakistani women from Swat in the IDP camps. The interviews are conducted "By a Group of NWFP Women" who 'do not want their names to be disclosed'   Kshmendra     "The Women of Swat and ‘Mullah Radio’" By a group of NWFP women   (“Islam started as soon as we fled from Malakand. People outside Swat think we had Islam and Shariat. There is no Islam in Swat. The Taliban have finished it.” - woman from Mingawera, Swat, in a Sawabai camp)   Where does one begin to tell you what they have been saying? It is difficult to explain because it is difficult for some of us to believe, to understand, and at times, even to empathise with. Between their rage and their tears, between giving each other solace and laughing at lighter moments, they opened up to talk to us. They shall not be named but they shall be heard by all of us today.    We write here some of the stories the women of Swat told us. They come from Kabbal, Mingawera (Mingora), Qambar, Kanju and other parts of Swat. Some are from Buner and Maidan in Lower Dir. Their lives were affected in many more ways than the lives of their men. Although they belong to a perceived conservative and retrogressive culture, which the Pukhtun male has always guarded very carefully, these women have lived through many months of a terror which has kept them even more house bound. This style of social control has challenged every aspect of their Pukhtun way of life in ways that they could not imagine. And yet their ignorance has played a big part in the tragedy of Swat-- an ignorance and naivety which made many of them the captive audience of Fazlullah, or, as they call him, ‘Mullah Radio’.   When we entered the large tent a few women looked up and smiled. Some got up and put out their hands to greet us. They seemed surprised that we could converse in the same language.  ‘Sit down. We can’t even offer you tea’ said one laughing ‘look at us and what we have been reduced to.’ We quite candidly said that they were OUR guests and would rather welcome them. Their children were lying on the floor, red because of the heat, tired and listless in the hot air of the fans. The women had been sitting in silence before we went in. We could hear no noise from the tent which was full of about forty women and children. What could they share with each other? Each story was the same as the other. It was a pall of misery and silences that hung over their heads. These women were lucky; they had a common place to come to, out of their tents. In most camps, the women sit in the heat of the tents, not being allowed to go out. They wait for their men to come before they can use the toilets. Their children defecate outside the tents as they cannot take them to the toilets. In some schools, they feed their children first and, at times, do not eat.   One by one they spoke their ordeal, their flight from the bombing, the endless days of walking with children and the elderly and the dead they had left behind. Soon each one wanted to tell her story. They sat closer and closer to us, listening to the others and telling us about themselves. Most of them had fled from Mingawera and other places in Swat--walking for days, avoiding the curfew by moving off the roads and taking to the mountains to walk, walking day and night; hiding their sons in trucks for fear that the Talibs would take them away to fight. One woman had walked for nine days with three children under ten. We cannot recall the number of women who told us about how their homes were shelled and how they had buried their dead without bathing them, in hurriedly dug graves. One had lost her baby on the way down, had dug a ditch beside the road, torn off part of her chadar, wrapped her child in it and buried her in the ditch. She walked on, to save what was left, her own life. Another spoke of how in the madness of the bombing, she had asked her husband to pick up her baby from the bed. When they were out of the village, the husband realized he had picked up the pillow and left the six month old child behind. They still kept walking.   Another woman spoke of how they were eating peacefully when a mortar had hit her house. The word ‘mortar’ was a regular part of their conversation. ‘Matr’ and ‘karpee’ which we finally realised was ‘curfew.’ Another told us how her neighbours’ home was shelled.  Four men had died on the spot. People had run helter-skelter. The helicopter passed and the men ran and started digging graves to bury the dead before fleeing the village. They told the women to collect what they could and the women started to round up their children. As the men dug, the helicopter returned to shell. The men left the bodies and ran for cover. The helicopter fired again and flew past. The men returned and dug what they could and dumped the bodies into the graves. She continued to talk, calmly. ‘These were not graves, these were ditches. We threw them into these ditches and we ran’.   Another woman in a school camp spoke of how her family had left food in their plates and hot tea in their cups when the shelling began. She was brave and then her brown eyes filled with tears and she said ‘my young son, he was in class ten, was hit on the back of his head and he died. I lost my young son’ and then her tears flowed. The others sat looking at her, thinking of their own miseries. We sat in silence, nobody consoling, and nobody talking. ‘At least they should have told us, why did they not tell us they were going to bomb?’ She wiped her eyes hurriedly and continued to talk. ‘They are beasts these Taliban. They are not human. May God finish them all like they have finished us.’ We were surprised, surprised that her anger turned to the Taliban when her son was killed by military shelling. She was a strong woman and continued to talk with a vengeance. ‘May God punish these animals for what they have done to us. I hope the army finishes every last one of them.’   >From one place to another, from one tent and school to another, we heard them tell us how they were unable to leave their homes for fear of being beaten or killed or flogged, how their men had been dragged out of their homes and slaughtered. One of the men said he lived on the chowk where the Taliban slaughtered people. He told us how they walked into homes and led out their victims in silence. He told us of the sounds he heard when these men were slaughtered, like cattle, on the chowk. He continued to talk “This is the terror they spread, that a father could not save his son and a brother could not save his brother, and that they used to stand in silence and watch their sons being led away. I was so outraged once that I started running out to stop them. My wife had to drag me back into the house, telling me that I would only meet the same fate.”   Each woman talked of the slaughter of men, whether they had been through it or whether they had heard it – it had terrorised them into silence and acquiescence. They also spoke of how ‘disgraced’ they felt as they fled with only a dupatta on. One of them laughed and said “Burqah, burqah, which is all we heard in Swat but when we ran we were hardly covered and the whole world was looking at us.” The men did not think this was funny. The humiliation they felt at this had outraged them--the humiliation at their women being in these camps, being seen by other men, the humiliation of standing in line for food. Perhaps that is why there were so many children standing in line for food at the camps.   But these are stories commonly heard until we heard them tell us unspeakable horrors. In one of the schools, a group of women led us to meet their friend. She could not speak because she could not stop crying. They kept saying ‘Show them; show them what they did to you.’ She was a widow and the Taliban had taken her 12 year old son away to join them. The women said that they used to come to all their homes and ask for their sons. They were too scared to resist. Some boys were taken by force, others went themselves, and others simply disappeared from madrassahs. The widow had gone and taken her son back from the madrassah. They had come into her house, taken all her jewelry and cut of all her hair. She cried for her own humiliation and did not speak a word. Women from Buner spoke of how the Taliban had no respect for the Pukhtun way of life, for Islam or for women. How they would enter any house they wanted, whether to take away their sons or to take refuge. They spoke of incidents of the younger women being raped, after which their breasts were cut off. They told us how their men were beheaded and hung from electricity poles with their chopped off heads placed between their legs. They would leave notes on these bodies for no one to touch.   So why did they let this happen? Why could they not get together to stop it?  We repeatedly asked them this. Who ARE these people? This is when the admittance came. They were honest, honest about the power of Mullah Radio and his constituency of women listeners.   “There was peace in Swat. Shut in their homes many women listened to ‘Raidu Mullah.’ He addressed them directly. “He used to talk about Islam, about praying five times a day, about going to the madrassah and learning the Quran. We all thought he was a good man.” He told the women about their duties under Islam, about cleanliness. Some of them embarrassingly told us about how he told them to wash their private parts.    “Radio Mullah ke haramtobe wo” (Mullah Radio spelled trouble for us) said one woman. “I never allowed my daughters and daughters-in-law to listen to him and used to switch the radio off. I just did not trust him.” As his popularity grew, women would line up outside his madrassah and donate. They donated whatever little jewelry they had. Even the poorest women would donate her nose-pins. Some of them said that Fazlullah gave the jewelry to his wife as they saw her wearing a donated necklace.   This captive, gullible audience, shut in their homes became the main source of Mullah Radio’s power and support. They encouraged their sons to join his madrassah. They provided the Taliban with a ready following. They provided them their sons which they soon realised were fodder, fodder for suicide bombings and ‘jihad.’ It was only when they realised and resisted this that the Taliban turned on their own people. “They would knock at our doors, and would say, ‘give us your sons in the name of Islam’. Thos who resisted were slaughtered.” They wanted the little boys and the young men, so little that the guns they carried were at times longer than their legs--so little that the innocent brains in their little heads were filled with nonsense about so-called Islam. But it was all too late and nobody was willing to listen. “The Taliban did nothing until the foreigners came--the men from Waziristan and Afghanistan. They were the ones who started training the local Taliban”. Many said their families approached the army and the government for help. But nobody listened. A few said that anyone who informed the army did not live long. They kept quiet. Even today parts of their areas where the Taliban have fled to are not known to the army. They will not speak.   Suddenly in a fit of rage one of them started shouting “What has happened today when for two years we have been screaming for help and the military and the Taliban have been sitting with each other chatting, when their check posts were barely a few feet away from each other. What was that all about that today it had to come to this that our army has suddenly decided to bomb its own people? Where were this army and this government when our people have been relating these incidents to them for almost two years?” This is only a question to be answered by those responsible for what is happening to our people today.   So what was the Nizaam e Adal, what did this mean for the women? They spoke of the flogging of that poor girl; they said Nizaam e Adal may have meant no war but that they could not leave their homes for fear that the Taliban may object to what they were wearing and beat them in public or kill their husbands. As one of them said “I stopped going to my relatives’ homes, for funerals and weddings. We were prisoners in our own homes as we could not move out without our men.” But there was no trust left in government, police or military. A government which had signed this deal with the Taliban.   “We have been fooled. We have been fooled by the Taliban, the Army and the government. We knew two years ago that this was not Islam but nobody would help us. Why did the army not do something two years when the Taliban were fewer in number and that when they could be controlled? When they knew exactly where they were. What is the reason for their friendship with these animals? Where were this army and this government when we were screaming for help and going to them?” We heard this repeatedly and endlessly. “We will only believe the army when it catches those three leaders. Where are those leaders? Once they are caught this will all finish. We will believe it once those three men are caught.”   How unfortunate it all is. How unfortunate that a culture deliberately keeps its women ignorant, a ready fodder for a madman and that these people had nowhere to turn to even when they wanted to save themselves and save our own country. What answer can one give to these poor, helpless women? Who is going to be held accountable for the violence they have suffered. It is quite clear that we have never really cared about them, that we did not bother to educate them because our leaders were busy squandering our money on foreign trips and properties and their own men were too busy thinking about their own control over women. They know today that nobody will ever protect them unless they see the glint of the dollar on the unfortunate horizon of Pakistan. Their questions can only be answered by those who know what they have done. And if they do not answer them in this world, they will for sure answer them in the next.   (The authors do not want their names to be disclosed.)   http://www.airra.org/analysis/TheWomenofSwatandMullahRadio.html   From kshmendra2005 at yahoo.com Thu Jun 4 19:30:36 2009 From: kshmendra2005 at yahoo.com (Kshmendra Kaul) Date: Thu, 4 Jun 2009 07:00:36 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Reader-list] "The frozen solution" Message-ID: <299006.3832.qm@web57203.mail.re3.yahoo.com> It is with an amused smile I am going ahead with this posting.   Just a few days back, starting from a conversation with Venugopalan, I expressed myself on how the Muslims  need to "go back to the basics" so as to ultimately "find a new understanding of what a true Muslim is that will not make them suspect in the eyes of everyone else."   I received comments suggesting "what business is it of yours to lecture to Muslims".   The reproduced piece by Nadeem F Paracha to a very large degree echoes the thoughts I had expressed. His of course is a far superior and well referenced commentary.   EXTRACT:   """""" The shariah is a man-made construct that came into being almost two centuries after the emergence of Islam; this is a fact that usually gets lost on most everyday Muslims to whom the shariah is erroneously propagated (by Political Islamists and fundamentalists)  as being a wholly divine law.""""""   Kshmendra     "The frozen solution"   Posted by Nadeem F. Paracha in Featured Articles, Pakistan on 06 4th, 2009   According to a March, 2009 report on DawnNews, a majority of people in the troubled Bajaur area wanted the implementation of the shariah law.   The same report then suggested that more than 70 per cent of the people residing in Bajaur are illiterate.   Now the question is how is one to respond to a demand made by an illiterate majority?   Of course, one cannot ignore the fact that the draconian laws prevailing in the tribal areas have continued to frustrate the inhabitants, but the shariah alternative is a somewhat simplistic and rhetorical answer.   The issue is encapsulated in a simple (but pertinent) question that is asked by those advising caution in this matter: ‘What shariah?’   There is not one form or version of the Islamic body of laws. The four major schools of Sunni Islamic jurisprudence – Hanafi, Maliki, Shafii and Hanabali – have their own variations of the shariah, especially on issues that are not clearly ordained by the Quran. [1]   When the Islamic empire started to expand, the Arabs came into contact with various other cultures and religions. They faced a whole new set of issues on which the Quran is silent. So, beginning in early 9th Century, ulema and caliphs started devising a body of laws derived not only from the Quran but the hadith as well.   Eventually the hadith became one of the primary sources of the shariah. But there was a reaction by some Muslim scholars who claimed that that the hadith are not entirely unquestionable because they were being reported by men who were not alive during the time of Prophet Muhammad. [2]   In an attempt to answer hadith critics like the Mu’tazili philosophers who emphasized the usage of reason and logic in matters of Quranic law and interpretation, leading ‘hadith scientists’ like Imam Bukhari (d.870) and Muslim Ibn Al-Hajjaj (d.875), started devising a mathematical way to decipher the correct hadiths from the false ones. Nevertheless, the Bukhari method (considered to be the most reliable by a majority of Muslims), managed to clear a mere 2, 062 as correct hadiths out of a mammoth 300,000 or so hadiths that were in circulation. [3];[4]   Thus, a number of modern Islamic scholars, especially in the 20th century, advised a cautious approach in using the hadith in the formation of Islamic Law. Some have described the practice as an off-shoot of how the hadith were used by the Abassid caliphs (750-1258), to ‘bolster their genealogical credentials’, and to ‘Islamize’ their rulings. [5]   The shariah remained a hotly debated topic between scholars and ulema until the reign of the tenth Abassid caliph, Al-Mutawakkil (847), when the orthodox ulema began to gain an upper hand.   Scholars believe that this victory of the orthodox ulema against the rationalists was due to the fact that Muslim history was at the peak of its expansionist phase, and conservative fiqh incorporated the logic of Muslim imperialism in its discourse.  However, the orthodox victory put an intellectual freeze on matters like ijtihad (independent interpretation of the legal sources), and by the 11th century the shariah laws had stopped evolving. [6]   Beginning in the 19th Century, the overriding arrangement - in which the Muslim caliphate remained tentatively secular and the shariah operated more as a theory - started to be questioned by a number of ‘reformist’ movements in the Muslim world.   The dominant reason behind the springing up of these movements was the gradual disintegration of Islamic empires in the face of the rise of Western powers.   Movements that put the non-implementation of the shariah in Muslim societies as the reason behind the empire’s downfall, eventually evolved into the varied expressions of the political Islam and militancy of the 20th Century. [7]   However, whereas violent 20th Century groups like the Ikhwan, the Muslim Brotherhood, and the present-day Taliban/Al-Qaeda belong to the ultra-conservative Hanabali school of jurisprudence, most non-militant radical groups who use evangelism to propagate the enforcement of the shariah usually belong to the Hanafi and Maliki fiqh.   Thus, outside the confines of what is considered to be ‘timeless and unchangeable’ in Islam, no two Islamic schools of jurisprudence agree on a single blueprint of the shariah, especially regarding the shariah’s rulings on modern-day issues, or on issues on which the Quran is silent.   One cannot convincingly produce a clear example of a singular version of shariah in history. Offering the example in this context of the system being practiced during the time of the ‘Khalifa-Rashideen’ is also largely a rhetorical gesture because the institution of the documented hadith - of which much of the shariah is made of - did not fully appear at least 200 years after the demise of the Prophet.   Today, the demand for the implementation of shariah laws is mostly based on a concocted memory of a ‘golden of age of shariah’.   A concoction that ever since the Abbasids has largely been used to gain and maintain political influence and power.   It is a rhetorical (as opposed to practical) solution because the shariah of any fiqh stopped evolving from the 11th Century onwards. Therefore, its modern-day implementation will only create tense dichotomies between assorted Muslim sects and encourage ‘religiously-ordained’ violence and crimes– especially in a pluralistic society like Pakistan.    The shariah is a man-made construct that came into being almost two centuries after the emergence of Islam; this is a fact that usually gets lost on most everyday Muslims to whom the shariah is erroneously propagated (by Political Islamists and fundamentalists)  as being a wholly divine law.   In fact, till less than a hundred years ago, most Muslim leaders and scholars were largely in favour of completely reforming the shariah in an attempt to compete and exist affectively in a fast changing and modernizing world.  [8]   According to a number of Islamic scholars across the centuries, the only thing entirely divine in Islam is the Quran; and on issues that are not addressed in the Quran, the ulema are required to reach a consensus through intellectual and legalistic deliberations, keeping well in mind the religious, traditional and psychodynamic culture of the place and society where an Islamic Law has to be enacted.   Harking back to a largely mythical tradition of hundreds of years ago to interpret and devise shariah in a modern setting is an act that can only spell socio-political and cultural disaster – plus, according to the scholars, this intransigent practice and propagation actually goes against the intellectual and evolutionary spirit of law-devising in Islam. �   Resources:    [1]  Rethinking Islam: Ziauddin Sardar (http://www.islamfortoday.com/sardar01.htm)    [2]  Liberal  Islam: Prospects & Challenges: Charles Kurzman (http://meria.idc.ac.il/journal/1999/issue3/jv3n3a2.html)    [3]  Islamic Law and the Use and Abuse of Hadith: Dr. Mohammad Omar      (http://www.globalwebpost.com/farooqm/writings/islamic/law_hadith.doc)     [4]  The Koran & Hadith: Kenneth Garden (http://www.mideasti.org/files/Library-Resources/Koran-and-Hadith-Bibliography.pdf)    [5] God’s Caliph: Patria Crone & Michael Hinds [Pgs: 58-97]:  (http://books.google.com.pk/books?id=Ow-mV50c2TUC&dq=patricia+crone+god’s+caliph&printsec=frontcover&source=bn&hl=en&ei=sN8j SpeSIYKCkQXtvJicBQ&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=5#PPA58,M1)   [6] Untangling the Complex Web of Islamic Law: Maliha Masood (http://books.google.com.pk/books?id=Ow-mV50c2TUC&dq=patricia+crone+god’s+caliph&printsec=frontcover&source=bn&hl=en&ei=sN8j SpeSIYKCkQXtvJicBQ&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=5#PPA58,M1)   [6] Untangling the Complex Web of Islamic Law: Maliha Masood (http://www.hahmadi-persia.com/links/saudi%20arabia%20and%20the%20militant%20islam.pdf)    [8] What Made The Gullen Movement Possible: Mustapha Akyol (http://www.gulenconference.org.uk/userfiles/file/Proceedings/Prcd%20-%20Akyol,%20M.pdf)   http://blog.dawn.com:91/dblog/2009/06/04/the-frozen-solution/       From kmvenuannur at gmail.com Thu Jun 4 19:33:29 2009 From: kmvenuannur at gmail.com (Venugopalan K M) Date: Thu, 4 Jun 2009 19:33:29 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] The "Sickular" History In-Reply-To: <753983.28292.qm@web57201.mail.re3.yahoo.com> References: <753983.28292.qm@web57201.mail.re3.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <1f9180970906040703q64dfa594s26e811f552ced6ff@mail.gmail.com> Dear Kshmendra, Thanks for your comments. Whether the word be associated with the root 'sick' or 'sickle', 'sickular' continues to be sickening to me. This, I attribute to the permanently negative connotations the word most often catch. A desire to belong to a genuinely secular polity, whatever be our personal religious conviction is what better corresponds to secularism in my view. Sickular, as far as I can understand, is often used by many (including the Muslim victims of discriminative state policies) only to undervalue the real worthiness of secularism whatever is existing, and to distract. After the recent massive popular verdict in the last general elections in favour of secularism, I wish we could go back to examine the sort of distortions the idea of secularism suffered in recent times. If we mean to use the word sickular just to describe all kinds of abuses of secularism, I am afraid it would not go beyond abusing the abusers; it seldom cares to build ideal models of praxis in a multi-religious country. We often put blame on the Left and the Congress alike, for not being sufficiently secular in practice; but that itself is no justification for finding a vague expression for venting our ire on people who don't really take care of our desire to live in a secular polity. Regards, Venu. On Thu, Jun 4, 2009 at 4:43 PM, Kshmendra Kaul wrote: > Dear Venugopalan > > A few comments, a few digressions. > > - As things stand, it would be foolish for the 'sickle' to be associated > with 'communism' in India, for if the "Left" are 'communists' they have > almost totally ignored those who wield the "sickle" in India. In that > perhaps is some clue for the stagnation and/or decline of the political > presence of the "Left" in India. > > - But, you have given an interesting spin on the "SICK" in "sickular" being > linked to "SICKle". You have added a dimension to the word though I did not > (in my brief research) see that exclusive connection being highlighted. > > - My 'falling in love with" the word "sickular" comes from my fascination > with roots of words and how words gain currency (and the altering that takes > place in their recognised meanings through time). > > - As I said earlier, I do not use the word "sickular" and I stated the > reasons why not. But I will not ignore the powerful statement the word > "sickular" makes and it's significance in symbolising the attitudinal and > (in some ways) ideological divides in India. > > - You seemed to have missed out on a reference I gave about the word > "sickular" being used by Muslims too. > > - I would suggest that attempts be made to understand the reasons why people > use the word "sickular" rather than shutting ones eyes with the > dismissal that it is "used by people with deeply convoluted, distorted and > parochial biases against secularism" > > - The word "pseudo-secular" (I am told by Wikipedia) has first recorded > usage by Padre Anthony Elenjimittam in his 1951 book "  Philosophy and > Action of the R. S. S. for the Hind Swaraj". It appears that he used it > against the Congress. > > - There is much to be said in favour of the need for some forms of (limited) > employment of "positive discrimination" or "affirmative action" in India. > But beyond that, one often sees attitudes of "convoluted secularism"; > "hypocritical secularism"; "selective secularism". For those I find the word > "pseudo-secular" applies itself aptly > > - Dont you think that when BJP professes that it is a "secular" party that > it is "pseudo-secularism"? > > The more we put others in compartments in our mind, the more our own > mind gets confined to a closed compartment. > > Kshmendra > > > --- On Thu, 6/4/09, Venugopalan K M wrote: > > From: Venugopalan K M > Subject: Re: [Reader-list] The "Sickular" History > To: "sarai-list" > Date: Thursday, June 4, 2009, 11:41 AM > > When used by people with deeply convoluted, distorted and parochial > biases against secularism , the usage sickular is sickening indeed. At > least some seem to have the image of sickle (comprising the > traditional symbol of communism) in their mind while they use > sickularism with extreme derogation. Take for example the > coinage"pseudo secularism", the credit of which goes to the Hidutwa > brigade of the 1990s under the stewardship of LKA.  It is far from > truth to suggest that  they would have appreciated 'real' secularism > in the place of the allegedly 'pseudo' secularism. > You take pseudo secularism to be a point of reference not to ask for > the real one,but just to whip up passions and hate and ultimately to > proceed to your cherished Ramrajya,where the Constitution of India > would be thrown to dust bin by the irate Hindu mobs and Sadhoos and > Shankaracharis would take over as law givers (Manu would be reinstated > as the unchallengeable authority of law) > > I have yet to come across a serious usage of the term 'sickular', > notwithstanding my benign curiosity  toward Ksmendra's and Inder > Salim's love for this coinage. > With my deepest regards to Kshmendra and Inder, > Venu. > > > > On Wed, Jun 3, 2009 at 10:56 PM, Inder Salim wrote: >> Dear Kshmendra >> >> SECULAR has lot to do with profane than with sacred, lucidly. >> So it is not surprising that contemporary dirty politics invents the >> word Sickluar. >> >> in many senses than one WE ALL ARE SICKLUAR PEOPLE , and that is not a >> bad category, given that fact that we can bring about a change in the >> society...... there is a possibility, but  those who think they are >> believers ought to study their practices, and analyze deeply how their >> beliefs are sustained by this Sickluar mass. If not down to earth >> believer, which is so rare, a believer is unwittingly a practising >> Sickular,  So better to be a known as Sickular, consciously.... >> >> thanks for kissing the word SICKULAR on the cheek, i too am kissing >> the other side of it. >> >> love >> is >> >> On Wed, Jun 3, 2009 at 7:04 PM, Kshmendra Kaul >> wrote: >>> My burst of "love" for the word "slacktivism" that I got introduced to >>> today reminded me about another word which I immediately fell in love with >>> on first seeing it. The word is "sickular". >>> >>> I have personally never used the word "sickular" even though in it >>> resonates and it encompasses my own evaluations of some attitudes one sees >>> in India. I have preffered terms like "convoluted secularism"; "hypocritical >>> secularism"; "selective secularism". >>> >>> "Sickular" is a powerful word but it is too dismissive for my liking for >>> it often brings to a sudden end any reasoned discussion that could explore >>> opposing viewpoints on interpretaions of "secularism". >>> >>> But, "Sickular" is a significant word for it symbolises the attitudinal >>> and to some extent the ideological divides that exist in India. >>> >>> What are the origins of this word "Sickular"? I could not find it in any >>> dictionary, nor was Wikipedia of any help. If someone knows, please let me >>> know. >>> >>> "Sickular" apppears to be an India-coined word. >>> >>> - The earliest usage of the word "sickular" that I could locate  from Web >>> sources is a 2004 comment by "Anonymous" on the site "Snap Judgement"  which >>> has content pre-dominantly in Tamil: >>> >>> "When our so called sickular media were shy on even touching this gory >>> murder, you did a splendid job of bringing out the truth." >>> >>> http://snapjudge.com/2004/11/05/%E0%AE%A8%E0%AF%86%E0%AE%A4%E0%AE%B0%E0%AF%8D%E0%AE%B2%E0%AE%BE%E0%AE%A8%E0%AF%8D%E0%AE%A4%E0%AE%BF%E0%AE%A9%E0%AF%8D-%E0%AE%AE%E0%AF%88%E0%AE%95%E0%AF%8D%E0%AE%95%E0%AF%87%E0%AE%B2%E0%AF%8D-%E0%AE%AE/ >>> >>> >>> Next after 2004, I could find use of "sickular" only in 2006. The word is >>> seen figuring repeatedly after that in 2008 and 2009. >>> >>> >>> - Jan 2006,  "indusAquarius" comments on the Blog "Shadow Warrior" : >>> >>> "This Mahesh Bhatt is among the bigwigs of the Sickular brigade." >>> >>> http://rajeev2004.blogspot.com/2006/01/british-mohammedan-preachers-vision.html >>> >>> >>> - Feb 2006, on the same Blog, "daisies" questions "DarkStorm" : >>> >>> "And your daily songs of "sickular" are not sickening for anyone ?" >>> http://rajeev2004.blogspot.com/2006/02/indians-as-blacks.html >>> >>> >>> - March 2006, on the "OUTLOOKINDIA" site, in a comment, "Ramchi" says: >>> >>> "Only in India where Hindu temples which are under the control of >>> sickular governments charging Hindus for praying their Gods." >>> http://www.outlookindia.com/printdis_v2.asp?refer=64867&childid=64867 >>> >>> >>> - March 2006, in the "Wisdom Blog" on the INDIATIMES site, "Ram" >>> comments: >>> >>> "If not, at the first opportunity, fly out of India, leaving the country >>> in the hands of this 'sickular' govt." >>> http://o3.indiatimes.com/wisenation/archive/2006/03/29/574301.aspx >>> >>> >>> - May 2006, on the site "Sepia Mutiny", "Gaurav" questions "Mahajan >>> Skeptic": >>> >>> "In your scheme of thing I guess India was a Ram Rajya (oops, that is >>> communal !), I meant paradise under "sickular" Congress until Devil (BJP) >>> came and serpent (LKA) robbed Indians of innocence." >>> >>> http://209.85.229.132/search?q=cache:yGIEYP-BFs4J:www.sepiamutiny.com/sepia/archives/003334.html+%22sickular%22&cd=90&hl=en&ct=clnk&gl=ae >>> >>> >>> - May 2006, "Blinded" comments in the "UNITED WE BLOG! FOR A DEMOCRATIC >>> NEPAL" : >>> >>> "I am amazed that still you all are not aware of what is true secularism >>> and what is happening to India due to sickular (secular) ideology!!" >>> >>> http://blog.com.np/united-we-blog/2006/05/18/no-hindu-kingdom-celebrating-secularism-in-nepal/ >>> >>> >>> - May 2006, "SPINDIANMEDIA" titles an entry in Blog of same name: >>> >>> "Vir Sanghvi's "sickular" double standards on stark display" >>> >>> http://spindianmedia.blogspot.com/2006/05/vir-sanghvis-sickular-double-standards.html >>> >>> >>> - June 2006, we have "Shmuel Kuper" commenting on what appears to be an >>> Israeli site "CROSS CURRENTS": >>> >>>  "Hopefully, the readers of this forum do not belong to the brainwashed >>> sickular public who do not care to read facts that might confuse their >>> brainwashed mind, and will find interest in facts rather than antisemite >>> propaganda, the “isreali” media so excels in, putting the “Jewish” state as >>> the #1 antisemite state in the Western world." >>> >>> http://www.cross-currents.com/archives/2006/06/28/yisrael-valis-the-court-transcript/ >>> >>> >>> - Jan 2007, on the site INDIANMUSLIMS, "Sharique" writes a piece, titling >>> it "The SICKular parties" and writes: >>> >>> "Incidents like these often develop this feeling in me that would India >>> have been in a much better position as a ‘Hindu Rashtra’ ? At least there >>> would have been no hypocrisy on the parts of these sickular political >>> parties" >>> http://indianmuslims.in/the-sickular-parties/ >>> >>> >>> Kshmendra >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> _________________________________________ >>> reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. >>> Critiques & Collaborations >>> To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with >>> subscribe in the subject header. >>> To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list >>> List archive: >> >> >> >> -- >> >> http://indersalim.livejournal.com >> _________________________________________ >> reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. >> Critiques & Collaborations >> To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with >> subscribe in the subject header. >> To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list >> List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> > > > > -- > http://venukm.blogspot.com/ > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with subscribe > in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> > -- http://venukm.blogspot.com/ From pawan.durani at gmail.com Thu Jun 4 19:39:38 2009 From: pawan.durani at gmail.com (Pawan Durani) Date: Thu, 4 Jun 2009 19:39:38 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] The "Sickular" History In-Reply-To: <1f9180970906040703q64dfa594s26e811f552ced6ff@mail.gmail.com> References: <753983.28292.qm@web57201.mail.re3.yahoo.com> <1f9180970906040703q64dfa594s26e811f552ced6ff@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <6b79f1a70906040709g7bccba35n87f70e2ca7584bf6@mail.gmail.com> Did people vote for 'secularism' or 'sickularism' ? Arent the both same in India ... pawan On Thu, Jun 4, 2009 at 7:33 PM, Venugopalan K M wrote: > Dear Kshmendra, > Thanks for your comments. > Whether the word be associated with the root 'sick' or 'sickle', > 'sickular' continues to be sickening to me. This, I attribute to the > permanently negative connotations the word most often catch. A desire > to belong to a genuinely secular polity, whatever be our personal > religious conviction is what better corresponds to secularism in my > view. Sickular, as far as I can understand, is often used by many > (including the Muslim victims of discriminative state policies) only > to undervalue the real worthiness of secularism whatever is existing, > and to distract. > After the recent massive popular verdict in the last general elections > in favour of secularism, I wish we could go back to examine the sort > of distortions the idea of secularism suffered in recent times. If we > mean to use the word sickular just to describe all kinds of abuses of > secularism, I am afraid it would not go beyond abusing the abusers; it > seldom cares to build ideal models of praxis in a multi-religious > country. We often put blame on the Left and the Congress alike, for > not being sufficiently secular in practice; but that itself is no > justification for finding a vague expression for venting our ire on > people who don't really take care of our desire to live in a secular > polity. > Regards, > Venu. > > On Thu, Jun 4, 2009 at 4:43 PM, Kshmendra Kaul > wrote: > > Dear Venugopalan > > > > A few comments, a few digressions. > > > > - As things stand, it would be foolish for the 'sickle' to be associated > > with 'communism' in India, for if the "Left" are 'communists' they have > > almost totally ignored those who wield the "sickle" in India. In that > > perhaps is some clue for the stagnation and/or decline of the political > > presence of the "Left" in India. > > > > - But, you have given an interesting spin on the "SICK" in "sickular" > being > > linked to "SICKle". You have added a dimension to the word though I did > not > > (in my brief research) see that exclusive connection being highlighted. > > > > - My 'falling in love with" the word "sickular" comes from my fascination > > with roots of words and how words gain currency (and the altering > that takes > > place in their recognised meanings through time). > > > > - As I said earlier, I do not use the word "sickular" and I stated the > > reasons why not. But I will not ignore the powerful statement the word > > "sickular" makes and it's significance in symbolising the attitudinal and > > (in some ways) ideological divides in India. > > > > - You seemed to have missed out on a reference I gave about the word > > "sickular" being used by Muslims too. > > > > - I would suggest that attempts be made to understand the reasons why > people > > use the word "sickular" rather than shutting ones eyes with the > > dismissal that it is "used by people with deeply convoluted, distorted > and > > parochial biases against secularism" > > > > - The word "pseudo-secular" (I am told by Wikipedia) has first recorded > > usage by Padre Anthony Elenjimittam in his 1951 book " Philosophy and > > Action of the R. S. S. for the Hind Swaraj". It appears that he used it > > against the Congress. > > > > - There is much to be said in favour of the need for some forms of > (limited) > > employment of "positive discrimination" or "affirmative action" in India. > > But beyond that, one often sees attitudes of "convoluted secularism"; > > "hypocritical secularism"; "selective secularism". For those I find the > word > > "pseudo-secular" applies itself aptly > > > > - Dont you think that when BJP professes that it is a "secular" party > that > > it is "pseudo-secularism"? > > > > The more we put others in compartments in our mind, the more our own > > mind gets confined to a closed compartment. > > > > Kshmendra > > > > > > --- On Thu, 6/4/09, Venugopalan K M wrote: > > > > From: Venugopalan K M > > Subject: Re: [Reader-list] The "Sickular" History > > To: "sarai-list" > > Date: Thursday, June 4, 2009, 11:41 AM > > > > When used by people with deeply convoluted, distorted and parochial > > biases against secularism , the usage sickular is sickening indeed. At > > least some seem to have the image of sickle (comprising the > > traditional symbol of communism) in their mind while they use > > sickularism with extreme derogation. Take for example the > > coinage"pseudo secularism", the credit of which goes to the Hidutwa > > brigade of the 1990s under the stewardship of LKA. It is far from > > truth to suggest that they would have appreciated 'real' secularism > > in the place of the allegedly 'pseudo' secularism. > > You take pseudo secularism to be a point of reference not to ask for > > the real one,but just to whip up passions and hate and ultimately to > > proceed to your cherished Ramrajya,where the Constitution of India > > would be thrown to dust bin by the irate Hindu mobs and Sadhoos and > > Shankaracharis would take over as law givers (Manu would be reinstated > > as the unchallengeable authority of law) > > > > I have yet to come across a serious usage of the term 'sickular', > > notwithstanding my benign curiosity toward Ksmendra's and Inder > > Salim's love for this coinage. > > With my deepest regards to Kshmendra and Inder, > > Venu. > > > > > > > > On Wed, Jun 3, 2009 at 10:56 PM, Inder Salim > wrote: > >> Dear Kshmendra > >> > >> SECULAR has lot to do with profane than with sacred, lucidly. > >> So it is not surprising that contemporary dirty politics invents the > >> word Sickluar. > >> > >> in many senses than one WE ALL ARE SICKLUAR PEOPLE , and that is not a > >> bad category, given that fact that we can bring about a change in the > >> society...... there is a possibility, but those who think they are > >> believers ought to study their practices, and analyze deeply how their > >> beliefs are sustained by this Sickluar mass. If not down to earth > >> believer, which is so rare, a believer is unwittingly a practising > >> Sickular, So better to be a known as Sickular, consciously.... > >> > >> thanks for kissing the word SICKULAR on the cheek, i too am kissing > >> the other side of it. > >> > >> love > >> is > >> > >> On Wed, Jun 3, 2009 at 7:04 PM, Kshmendra Kaul > > >> wrote: > >>> My burst of "love" for the word "slacktivism" that I got introduced to > >>> today reminded me about another word which I immediately fell in love > with > >>> on first seeing it. The word is "sickular". > >>> > >>> I have personally never used the word "sickular" even though in it > >>> resonates and it encompasses my own evaluations of some attitudes one > sees > >>> in India. I have preffered terms like "convoluted secularism"; > "hypocritical > >>> secularism"; "selective secularism". > >>> > >>> "Sickular" is a powerful word but it is too dismissive for my liking > for > >>> it often brings to a sudden end any reasoned discussion that could > explore > >>> opposing viewpoints on interpretaions of "secularism". > >>> > >>> But, "Sickular" is a significant word for it symbolises the attitudinal > >>> and to some extent the ideological divides that exist in India. > >>> > >>> What are the origins of this word "Sickular"? I could not find it in > any > >>> dictionary, nor was Wikipedia of any help. If someone knows, please let > me > >>> know. > >>> > >>> "Sickular" apppears to be an India-coined word. > >>> > >>> - The earliest usage of the word "sickular" that I could locate from > Web > >>> sources is a 2004 comment by "Anonymous" on the site "Snap Judgement" > which > >>> has content pre-dominantly in Tamil: > >>> > >>> "When our so called sickular media were shy on even touching this gory > >>> murder, you did a splendid job of bringing out the truth." > >>> > >>> > http://snapjudge.com/2004/11/05/%E0%AE%A8%E0%AF%86%E0%AE%A4%E0%AE%B0%E0%AF%8D%E0%AE%B2%E0%AE%BE%E0%AE%A8%E0%AF%8D%E0%AE%A4%E0%AE%BF%E0%AE%A9%E0%AF%8D-%E0%AE%AE%E0%AF%88%E0%AE%95%E0%AF%8D%E0%AE%95%E0%AF%87%E0%AE%B2%E0%AF%8D-%E0%AE%AE/ > >>> > >>> > >>> Next after 2004, I could find use of "sickular" only in 2006. The word > is > >>> seen figuring repeatedly after that in 2008 and 2009. > >>> > >>> > >>> - Jan 2006, "indusAquarius" comments on the Blog "Shadow Warrior" : > >>> > >>> "This Mahesh Bhatt is among the bigwigs of the Sickular brigade." > >>> > >>> > http://rajeev2004.blogspot.com/2006/01/british-mohammedan-preachers-vision.html > >>> > >>> > >>> - Feb 2006, on the same Blog, "daisies" questions "DarkStorm" : > >>> > >>> "And your daily songs of "sickular" are not sickening for anyone ?" > >>> http://rajeev2004.blogspot.com/2006/02/indians-as-blacks.html > >>> > >>> > >>> - March 2006, on the "OUTLOOKINDIA" site, in a comment, "Ramchi" says: > >>> > >>> "Only in India where Hindu temples which are under the control of > >>> sickular governments charging Hindus for praying their Gods." > >>> http://www.outlookindia.com/printdis_v2.asp?refer=64867&childid=64867 > >>> > >>> > >>> - March 2006, in the "Wisdom Blog" on the INDIATIMES site, "Ram" > >>> comments: > >>> > >>> "If not, at the first opportunity, fly out of India, leaving the > country > >>> in the hands of this 'sickular' govt." > >>> http://o3.indiatimes.com/wisenation/archive/2006/03/29/574301.aspx > >>> > >>> > >>> - May 2006, on the site "Sepia Mutiny", "Gaurav" questions "Mahajan > >>> Skeptic": > >>> > >>> "In your scheme of thing I guess India was a Ram Rajya (oops, that is > >>> communal !), I meant paradise under "sickular" Congress until Devil > (BJP) > >>> came and serpent (LKA) robbed Indians of innocence." > >>> > >>> > http://209.85.229.132/search?q=cache:yGIEYP-BFs4J:www.sepiamutiny.com/sepia/archives/003334.html+%22sickular%22&cd=90&hl=en&ct=clnk&gl=ae > >>> > >>> > >>> - May 2006, "Blinded" comments in the "UNITED WE BLOG! FOR A DEMOCRATIC > >>> NEPAL" : > >>> > >>> "I am amazed that still you all are not aware of what is true > secularism > >>> and what is happening to India due to sickular (secular) ideology!!" > >>> > >>> > http://blog.com.np/united-we-blog/2006/05/18/no-hindu-kingdom-celebrating-secularism-in-nepal/ > >>> > >>> > >>> - May 2006, "SPINDIANMEDIA" titles an entry in Blog of same name: > >>> > >>> "Vir Sanghvi's "sickular" double standards on stark display" > >>> > >>> > http://spindianmedia.blogspot.com/2006/05/vir-sanghvis-sickular-double-standards.html > >>> > >>> > >>> - June 2006, we have "Shmuel Kuper" commenting on what appears to be an > >>> Israeli site "CROSS CURRENTS": > >>> > >>> "Hopefully, the readers of this forum do not belong to the brainwashed > >>> sickular public who do not care to read facts that might confuse their > >>> brainwashed mind, and will find interest in facts rather than > antisemite > >>> propaganda, the “isreali” media so excels in, putting the “Jewish” > state as > >>> the #1 antisemite state in the Western world." > >>> > >>> > http://www.cross-currents.com/archives/2006/06/28/yisrael-valis-the-court-transcript/ > >>> > >>> > >>> - Jan 2007, on the site INDIANMUSLIMS, "Sharique" writes a piece, > titling > >>> it "The SICKular parties" and writes: > >>> > >>> "Incidents like these often develop this feeling in me that would India > >>> have been in a much better position as a ‘Hindu Rashtra’ ? At least > there > >>> would have been no hypocrisy on the parts of these sickular political > >>> parties" > >>> http://indianmuslims.in/the-sickular-parties/ > >>> > >>> > >>> Kshmendra > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> _________________________________________ > >>> reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > >>> Critiques & Collaborations > >>> To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > >>> subscribe in the subject header. > >>> To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > >>> List archive: > >> > >> > >> > >> -- > >> > >> http://indersalim.livejournal.com > >> _________________________________________ > >> reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > >> Critiques & Collaborations > >> To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > >> subscribe in the subject header. > >> To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > >> List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> > > > > > > > > -- > > http://venukm.blogspot.com/ > > _________________________________________ > > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > > Critiques & Collaborations > > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > subscribe > > in the subject header. > > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> > > > > > > -- > http://venukm.blogspot.com/ > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > subscribe in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> From kshmendra2005 at yahoo.com Thu Jun 4 19:46:16 2009 From: kshmendra2005 at yahoo.com (Kshmendra Kaul) Date: Thu, 4 Jun 2009 07:16:16 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Reader-list] The "Sickular" History Message-ID: <438921.37167.qm@web57202.mail.re3.yahoo.com> Dear Venugopalan   I almost totally agree with what you have written. You have put it very articulately. Perhaps in there somewhere is a reason for why I personally have not used that word in interactions.   "Almost" totally agree; "Almost". Would otherwise be boring.   Take care   Kshmendra   --- On Thu, 6/4/09, Venugopalan K M wrote: From: Venugopalan K M Subject: Re: [Reader-list] The "Sickular" History To: "sarai-list" Date: Thursday, June 4, 2009, 7:33 PM Dear Kshmendra, Thanks for your comments. Whether the word be associated with the root 'sick' or 'sickle', 'sickular' continues to be sickening to me. This, I attribute to the permanently negative connotations the word most often catch. A desire to belong to a genuinely secular polity, whatever be our personal religious conviction is what better corresponds to secularism in my view.  Sickular, as far as  I can understand, is often used by many (including the Muslim victims of discriminative state policies)  only to undervalue the real worthiness of secularism whatever is existing, and to distract. After the recent massive popular verdict in the last general elections in favour of secularism, I wish we could go back to examine the sort of distortions the idea of secularism suffered in recent times. If we mean to use the word sickular just to describe all kinds of abuses of secularism, I am afraid it would not go beyond abusing the abusers; it seldom cares to build ideal models of praxis in a multi-religious country. We often put blame on the Left and the Congress alike, for not being sufficiently secular in practice; but that itself is no justification for finding a vague expression for venting our ire on people who don't really take care of our desire to live in a secular polity. Regards, Venu. On Thu, Jun 4, 2009 at 4:43 PM, Kshmendra Kaul wrote: > Dear Venugopalan > > A few comments, a few digressions. > > - As things stand, it would be foolish for the 'sickle' to be associated > with 'communism' in India, for if the "Left" are 'communists' they have > almost totally ignored those who wield the "sickle" in India. In that > perhaps is some clue for the stagnation and/or decline of the political > presence of the "Left" in India. > > - But, you have given an interesting spin on the "SICK" in "sickular" being > linked to "SICKle". You have added a dimension to the word though I did not > (in my brief research) see that exclusive connection being highlighted. > > - My 'falling in love with" the word "sickular" comes from my fascination > with roots of words and how words gain currency (and the altering that takes > place in their recognised meanings through time). > > - As I said earlier, I do not use the word "sickular" and I stated the > reasons why not. But I will not ignore the powerful statement the word > "sickular" makes and it's significance in symbolising the attitudinal and > (in some ways) ideological divides in India. > > - You seemed to have missed out on a reference I gave about the word > "sickular" being used by Muslims too. > > - I would suggest that attempts be made to understand the reasons why people > use the word "sickular" rather than shutting ones eyes with the > dismissal that it is "used by people with deeply convoluted, distorted and > parochial biases against secularism" > > - The word "pseudo-secular" (I am told by Wikipedia) has first recorded > usage by Padre Anthony Elenjimittam in his 1951 book "  Philosophy and > Action of the R. S. S. for the Hind Swaraj". It appears that he used it > against the Congress. > > - There is much to be said in favour of the need for some forms of (limited) > employment of "positive discrimination" or "affirmative action" in India. > But beyond that, one often sees attitudes of "convoluted secularism"; > "hypocritical secularism"; "selective secularism". For those I find the word > "pseudo-secular" applies itself aptly > > - Dont you think that when BJP professes that it is a "secular" party that > it is "pseudo-secularism"? > > The more we put others in compartments in our mind, the more our own > mind gets confined to a closed compartment. > > Kshmendra > > > --- On Thu, 6/4/09, Venugopalan K M wrote: > > From: Venugopalan K M > Subject: Re: [Reader-list] The "Sickular" History > To: "sarai-list" > Date: Thursday, June 4, 2009, 11:41 AM > > When used by people with deeply convoluted, distorted and parochial > biases against secularism , the usage sickular is sickening indeed. At > least some seem to have the image of sickle (comprising the > traditional symbol of communism) in their mind while they use > sickularism with extreme derogation. Take for example the > coinage"pseudo secularism", the credit of which goes to the Hidutwa > brigade of the 1990s under the stewardship of LKA.  It is far from > truth to suggest that  they would have appreciated 'real' secularism > in the place of the allegedly 'pseudo' secularism. > You take pseudo secularism to be a point of reference not to ask for > the real one,but just to whip up passions and hate and ultimately to > proceed to your cherished Ramrajya,where the Constitution of India > would be thrown to dust bin by the irate Hindu mobs and Sadhoos and > Shankaracharis would take over as law givers (Manu would be reinstated > as the unchallengeable authority of law) > > I have yet to come across a serious usage of the term 'sickular', > notwithstanding my benign curiosity  toward Ksmendra's and Inder > Salim's love for this coinage. > With my deepest regards to Kshmendra and Inder, > Venu. > > > > On Wed, Jun 3, 2009 at 10:56 PM, Inder Salim wrote: >> Dear Kshmendra >> >> SECULAR has lot to do with profane than with sacred, lucidly. >> So it is not surprising that contemporary dirty politics invents the >> word Sickluar. >> >> in many senses than one WE ALL ARE SICKLUAR PEOPLE , and that is not a >> bad category, given that fact that we can bring about a change in the >> society...... there is a possibility, but  those who think they are >> believers ought to study their practices, and analyze deeply how their >> beliefs are sustained by this Sickluar mass. If not down to earth >> believer, which is so rare, a believer is unwittingly a practising >> Sickular,  So better to be a known as Sickular, consciously.... >> >> thanks for kissing the word SICKULAR on the cheek, i too am kissing >> the other side of it. >> >> love >> is >> >> On Wed, Jun 3, 2009 at 7:04 PM, Kshmendra Kaul >> wrote: >>> My burst of "love" for the word "slacktivism" that I got introduced to >>> today reminded me about another word which I immediately fell in love with >>> on first seeing it. The word is "sickular". >>> >>> I have personally never used the word "sickular" even though in it >>> resonates and it encompasses my own evaluations of some attitudes one sees >>> in India. I have preffered terms like "convoluted secularism"; "hypocritical >>> secularism"; "selective secularism". >>> >>> "Sickular" is a powerful word but it is too dismissive for my liking for >>> it often brings to a sudden end any reasoned discussion that could explore >>> opposing viewpoints on interpretaions of "secularism". >>> >>> But, "Sickular" is a significant word for it symbolises the attitudinal >>> and to some extent the ideological divides that exist in India. >>> >>> What are the origins of this word "Sickular"? I could not find it in any >>> dictionary, nor was Wikipedia of any help. If someone knows, please let me >>> know. >>> >>> "Sickular" apppears to be an India-coined word. >>> >>> - The earliest usage of the word "sickular" that I could locate  from Web >>> sources is a 2004 comment by "Anonymous" on the site "Snap Judgement"  which >>> has content pre-dominantly in Tamil: >>> >>> "When our so called sickular media were shy on even touching this gory >>> murder, you did a splendid job of bringing out the truth." >>> >>> http://snapjudge.com/2004/11/05/%E0%AE%A8%E0%AF%86%E0%AE%A4%E0%AE%B0%E0%AF%8D%E0%AE%B2%E0%AE%BE%E0%AE%A8%E0%AF%8D%E0%AE%A4%E0%AE%BF%E0%AE%A9%E0%AF%8D-%E0%AE%AE%E0%AF%88%E0%AE%95%E0%AF%8D%E0%AE%95%E0%AF%87%E0%AE%B2%E0%AF%8D-%E0%AE%AE/ >>> >>> >>> Next after 2004, I could find use of "sickular" only in 2006. The word is >>> seen figuring repeatedly after that in 2008 and 2009. >>> >>> >>> - Jan 2006,  "indusAquarius" comments on the Blog "Shadow Warrior" : >>> >>> "This Mahesh Bhatt is among the bigwigs of the Sickular brigade." >>> >>> http://rajeev2004.blogspot.com/2006/01/british-mohammedan-preachers-vision.html >>> >>> >>> - Feb 2006, on the same Blog, "daisies" questions "DarkStorm" : >>> >>> "And your daily songs of "sickular" are not sickening for anyone ?" >>> http://rajeev2004.blogspot.com/2006/02/indians-as-blacks.html >>> >>> >>> - March 2006, on the "OUTLOOKINDIA" site, in a comment, "Ramchi" says: >>> >>> "Only in India where Hindu temples which are under the control of >>> sickular governments charging Hindus for praying their Gods." >>> http://www.outlookindia.com/printdis_v2.asp?refer=64867&childid=64867 >>> >>> >>> - March 2006, in the "Wisdom Blog" on the INDIATIMES site, "Ram" >>> comments: >>> >>> "If not, at the first opportunity, fly out of India, leaving the country >>> in the hands of this 'sickular' govt." >>> http://o3.indiatimes.com/wisenation/archive/2006/03/29/574301.aspx >>> >>> >>> - May 2006, on the site "Sepia Mutiny", "Gaurav" questions "Mahajan >>> Skeptic": >>> >>> "In your scheme of thing I guess India was a Ram Rajya (oops, that is >>> communal !), I meant paradise under "sickular" Congress until Devil (BJP) >>> came and serpent (LKA) robbed Indians of innocence." >>> >>> http://209.85.229.132/search?q=cache:yGIEYP-BFs4J:www.sepiamutiny.com/sepia/archives/003334.html+%22sickular%22&cd=90&hl=en&ct=clnk&gl=ae >>> >>> >>> - May 2006, "Blinded" comments in the "UNITED WE BLOG! FOR A DEMOCRATIC >>> NEPAL" : >>> >>> "I am amazed that still you all are not aware of what is true secularism >>> and what is happening to India due to sickular (secular) ideology!!" >>> >>> http://blog.com.np/united-we-blog/2006/05/18/no-hindu-kingdom-celebrating-secularism-in-nepal/ >>> >>> >>> - May 2006, "SPINDIANMEDIA" titles an entry in Blog of same name: >>> >>> "Vir Sanghvi's "sickular" double standards on stark display" >>> >>> http://spindianmedia.blogspot.com/2006/05/vir-sanghvis-sickular-double-standards.html >>> >>> >>> - June 2006, we have "Shmuel Kuper" commenting on what appears to be an >>> Israeli site "CROSS CURRENTS": >>> >>>  "Hopefully, the readers of this forum do not belong to the brainwashed >>> sickular public who do not care to read facts that might confuse their >>> brainwashed mind, and will find interest in facts rather than antisemite >>> propaganda, the “isreali” media so excels in, putting the “Jewish” state as >>> the #1 antisemite state in the Western world." >>> >>> http://www.cross-currents.com/archives/2006/06/28/yisrael-valis-the-court-transcript/ >>> >>> >>> - Jan 2007, on the site INDIANMUSLIMS, "Sharique" writes a piece, titling >>> it "The SICKular parties" and writes: >>> >>> "Incidents like these often develop this feeling in me that would India >>> have been in a much better position as a ‘Hindu Rashtra’ ? At least there >>> would have been no hypocrisy on the parts of these sickular political >>> parties" >>> http://indianmuslims.in/the-sickular-parties/ >>> >>> >>> Kshmendra >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> _________________________________________ >>> reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. >>> Critiques & Collaborations >>> To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with >>> subscribe in the subject header. >>> To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list >>> List archive: >> >> >> >> -- >> >> http://indersalim.livejournal.com >> _________________________________________ >> reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. >> Critiques & Collaborations >> To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with >> subscribe in the subject header. >> To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list >> List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> > > > > -- > http://venukm.blogspot.com/ > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with subscribe > in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> > -- http://venukm.blogspot.com/ From rakesh.rnbdj at gmail.com Thu Jun 4 19:55:33 2009 From: rakesh.rnbdj at gmail.com (Rakesh Iyer) Date: Thu, 4 Jun 2009 19:55:33 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] "The frozen solution" In-Reply-To: <299006.3832.qm@web57203.mail.re3.yahoo.com> References: <299006.3832.qm@web57203.mail.re3.yahoo.com> Message-ID: Dear Kshamendra (and all) The article is good, but my interpretations on the article, I would say, are somewhat different from what yours are. The article is a reflection of how diverse the views are in Islam, on issues which are unaddressed in the Quran (either because those issues were never thought about even though they existed, or because they never came into being). And as I see it, the message is to Pakistanis (the article says violence would be the outcome of overriding this diversity, particularly in the Pakistani society which the article refers to as pluralistic). The message can be to the rest Islamic world as well. Hence, it's a caution, as I see it, to Muslims around the world not to fall for the argument of the Al-Qaeda and the like about the 'golden age of Islam'. However, when you ask a Muslim to start thinking what true Islam is, it indirectly assumes that he doesn't know what true Islam is. And I don't think you, me or anybody else has the knowledge to pass this judgement upon each and every Muslim that they don't know what true Islam is. As I see it, there is no proof to state that they don't know what true Islam is. Also, indirectly you are trying to put the blame of the action of a few on the entire community, which is wrong. Just as the action of a few VHP goons can't mean all the Hindus are bad, the action of a few Al Qaeda members can't mean that all Muslims are bad. (or that they don't know what truly is their religion) The article just cautions the Muslims around the world not to fall for the argument. You can caution the Muslims from falling to the danger of falling to Al Qaeda. At the same time, I won't say 'you have no business to tell them that'. My straightforward answer to that would be 'don't equate Osama with all Muslims'. (And you are doing that, even if you don't wish, through such things) If you wish to give the advice of learning true Islam, do give that to the Al Qaeda of course. I am with you if that is what you wish. (Though how much will that solve the matter is a different issue) Regards Rakesh From kmvenuannur at gmail.com Thu Jun 4 19:57:46 2009 From: kmvenuannur at gmail.com (Venugopalan K M) Date: Thu, 4 Jun 2009 19:57:46 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] The "Sickular" History In-Reply-To: <6b79f1a70906040709g7bccba35n87f70e2ca7584bf6@mail.gmail.com> References: <753983.28292.qm@web57201.mail.re3.yahoo.com> <1f9180970906040703q64dfa594s26e811f552ced6ff@mail.gmail.com> <6b79f1a70906040709g7bccba35n87f70e2ca7584bf6@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <1f9180970906040727x52af8934kde09f58f0b75f6c9@mail.gmail.com> Dear Pawan Durani, Thanks;with this comment from you I feel like vindicated. I like to believe that people certainly voted for secularism; again, most of them apparently know neither what is meant by 'sickularism' , nor are able to catch the nuances made out here. Regards, Venu. On Thu, Jun 4, 2009 at 7:39 PM, Pawan Durani wrote: > Did people vote for 'secularism' or 'sickularism' ? > > Arent the both same in India ... > > pawan > > On Thu, Jun 4, 2009 at 7:33 PM, Venugopalan K M > wrote: >> >> Dear Kshmendra, >> Thanks for your comments. >> Whether the word be associated with the root 'sick' or 'sickle', >> 'sickular' continues to be sickening to me. This, I attribute to the >> permanently negative connotations the word most often catch. A desire >> to belong to a genuinely secular polity, whatever be our personal >> religious conviction is what better corresponds to secularism in my >> view.  Sickular, as far as  I can understand, is often used by many >> (including the Muslim victims of discriminative state policies)  only >> to undervalue the real worthiness of secularism whatever is existing, >> and to distract. >> After the recent massive popular verdict in the last general elections >> in favour of secularism, I wish we could go back to examine the sort >> of distortions the idea of secularism suffered in recent times. If we >> mean to use the word sickular just to describe all kinds of abuses of >> secularism, I am afraid it would not go beyond abusing the abusers; it >> seldom cares to build ideal models of praxis in a multi-religious >> country. We often put blame on the Left and the Congress alike, for >> not being sufficiently secular in practice; but that itself is no >> justification for finding a vague expression for venting our ire on >> people who don't really take care of our desire to live in a secular >> polity. >> Regards, >> Venu. >> >> On Thu, Jun 4, 2009 at 4:43 PM, Kshmendra Kaul >> wrote: >> > Dear Venugopalan >> > >> > A few comments, a few digressions. >> > >> > - As things stand, it would be foolish for the 'sickle' to be associated >> > with 'communism' in India, for if the "Left" are 'communists' they have >> > almost totally ignored those who wield the "sickle" in India. In that >> > perhaps is some clue for the stagnation and/or decline of the political >> > presence of the "Left" in India. >> > >> > - But, you have given an interesting spin on the "SICK" in "sickular" >> > being >> > linked to "SICKle". You have added a dimension to the word though I did >> > not >> > (in my brief research) see that exclusive connection being highlighted. >> > >> > - My 'falling in love with" the word "sickular" comes from my >> > fascination >> > with roots of words and how words gain currency (and the altering >> > that takes >> > place in their recognised meanings through time). >> > >> > - As I said earlier, I do not use the word "sickular" and I stated the >> > reasons why not. But I will not ignore the powerful statement the word >> > "sickular" makes and it's significance in symbolising the attitudinal >> > and >> > (in some ways) ideological divides in India. >> > >> > - You seemed to have missed out on a reference I gave about the word >> > "sickular" being used by Muslims too. >> > >> > - I would suggest that attempts be made to understand the reasons why >> > people >> > use the word "sickular" rather than shutting ones eyes with the >> > dismissal that it is "used by people with deeply convoluted, distorted >> > and >> > parochial biases against secularism" >> > >> > - The word "pseudo-secular" (I am told by Wikipedia) has first recorded >> > usage by Padre Anthony Elenjimittam in his 1951 book "  Philosophy and >> > Action of the R. S. S. for the Hind Swaraj". It appears that he used it >> > against the Congress. >> > >> > - There is much to be said in favour of the need for some forms of >> > (limited) >> > employment of "positive discrimination" or "affirmative action" in >> > India. >> > But beyond that, one often sees attitudes of "convoluted secularism"; >> > "hypocritical secularism"; "selective secularism". For those I find the >> > word >> > "pseudo-secular" applies itself aptly >> > >> > - Dont you think that when BJP professes that it is a "secular" party >> > that >> > it is "pseudo-secularism"? >> > >> > The more we put others in compartments in our mind, the more our own >> > mind gets confined to a closed compartment. >> > >> > Kshmendra >> > >> > >> > --- On Thu, 6/4/09, Venugopalan K M wrote: >> > >> > From: Venugopalan K M >> > Subject: Re: [Reader-list] The "Sickular" History >> > To: "sarai-list" >> > Date: Thursday, June 4, 2009, 11:41 AM >> > >> > When used by people with deeply convoluted, distorted and parochial >> > biases against secularism , the usage sickular is sickening indeed. At >> > least some seem to have the image of sickle (comprising the >> > traditional symbol of communism) in their mind while they use >> > sickularism with extreme derogation. Take for example the >> > coinage"pseudo secularism", the credit of which goes to the Hidutwa >> > brigade of the 1990s under the stewardship of LKA.  It is far from >> > truth to suggest that  they would have appreciated 'real' secularism >> > in the place of the allegedly 'pseudo' secularism. >> > You take pseudo secularism to be a point of reference not to ask for >> > the real one,but just to whip up passions and hate and ultimately to >> > proceed to your cherished Ramrajya,where the Constitution of India >> > would be thrown to dust bin by the irate Hindu mobs and Sadhoos and >> > Shankaracharis would take over as law givers (Manu would be reinstated >> > as the unchallengeable authority of law) >> > >> > I have yet to come across a serious usage of the term 'sickular', >> > notwithstanding my benign curiosity  toward Ksmendra's and Inder >> > Salim's love for this coinage. >> > With my deepest regards to Kshmendra and Inder, >> > Venu. >> > >> > >> > >> > On Wed, Jun 3, 2009 at 10:56 PM, Inder Salim >> > wrote: >> >> Dear Kshmendra >> >> >> >> SECULAR has lot to do with profane than with sacred, lucidly. >> >> So it is not surprising that contemporary dirty politics invents the >> >> word Sickluar. >> >> >> >> in many senses than one WE ALL ARE SICKLUAR PEOPLE , and that is not a >> >> bad category, given that fact that we can bring about a change in the >> >> society...... there is a possibility, but  those who think they are >> >> believers ought to study their practices, and analyze deeply how their >> >> beliefs are sustained by this Sickluar mass. If not down to earth >> >> believer, which is so rare, a believer is unwittingly a practising >> >> Sickular,  So better to be a known as Sickular, consciously.... >> >> >> >> thanks for kissing the word SICKULAR on the cheek, i too am kissing >> >> the other side of it. >> >> >> >> love >> >> is >> >> >> >> On Wed, Jun 3, 2009 at 7:04 PM, Kshmendra Kaul >> >> >> >> wrote: >> >>> My burst of "love" for the word "slacktivism" that I got introduced to >> >>> today reminded me about another word which I immediately fell in love >> >>> with >> >>> on first seeing it. The word is "sickular". >> >>> >> >>> I have personally never used the word "sickular" even though in it >> >>> resonates and it encompasses my own evaluations of some attitudes one >> >>> sees >> >>> in India. I have preffered terms like "convoluted secularism"; >> >>> "hypocritical >> >>> secularism"; "selective secularism". >> >>> >> >>> "Sickular" is a powerful word but it is too dismissive for my liking >> >>> for >> >>> it often brings to a sudden end any reasoned discussion that could >> >>> explore >> >>> opposing viewpoints on interpretaions of "secularism". >> >>> >> >>> But, "Sickular" is a significant word for it symbolises the >> >>> attitudinal >> >>> and to some extent the ideological divides that exist in India. >> >>> >> >>> What are the origins of this word "Sickular"? I could not find it in >> >>> any >> >>> dictionary, nor was Wikipedia of any help. If someone knows, please >> >>> let me >> >>> know. >> >>> >> >>> "Sickular" apppears to be an India-coined word. >> >>> >> >>> - The earliest usage of the word "sickular" that I could locate  from >> >>> Web >> >>> sources is a 2004 comment by "Anonymous" on the site "Snap Judgement" >> >>>  which >> >>> has content pre-dominantly in Tamil: >> >>> >> >>> "When our so called sickular media were shy on even touching this gory >> >>> murder, you did a splendid job of bringing out the truth." >> >>> >> >>> >> >>> http://snapjudge.com/2004/11/05/%E0%AE%A8%E0%AF%86%E0%AE%A4%E0%AE%B0%E0%AF%8D%E0%AE%B2%E0%AE%BE%E0%AE%A8%E0%AF%8D%E0%AE%A4%E0%AE%BF%E0%AE%A9%E0%AF%8D-%E0%AE%AE%E0%AF%88%E0%AE%95%E0%AF%8D%E0%AE%95%E0%AF%87%E0%AE%B2%E0%AF%8D-%E0%AE%AE/ >> >>> >> >>> >> >>> Next after 2004, I could find use of "sickular" only in 2006. The word >> >>> is >> >>> seen figuring repeatedly after that in 2008 and 2009. >> >>> >> >>> >> >>> - Jan 2006,  "indusAquarius" comments on the Blog "Shadow Warrior" : >> >>> >> >>> "This Mahesh Bhatt is among the bigwigs of the Sickular brigade." >> >>> >> >>> >> >>> http://rajeev2004.blogspot.com/2006/01/british-mohammedan-preachers-vision.html >> >>> >> >>> >> >>> - Feb 2006, on the same Blog, "daisies" questions "DarkStorm" : >> >>> >> >>> "And your daily songs of "sickular" are not sickening for anyone ?" >> >>> http://rajeev2004.blogspot.com/2006/02/indians-as-blacks.html >> >>> >> >>> >> >>> - March 2006, on the "OUTLOOKINDIA" site, in a comment, "Ramchi" says: >> >>> >> >>> "Only in India where Hindu temples which are under the control of >> >>> sickular governments charging Hindus for praying their Gods." >> >>> http://www.outlookindia.com/printdis_v2.asp?refer=64867&childid=64867 >> >>> >> >>> >> >>> - March 2006, in the "Wisdom Blog" on the INDIATIMES site, "Ram" >> >>> comments: >> >>> >> >>> "If not, at the first opportunity, fly out of India, leaving the >> >>> country >> >>> in the hands of this 'sickular' govt." >> >>> http://o3.indiatimes.com/wisenation/archive/2006/03/29/574301.aspx >> >>> >> >>> >> >>> - May 2006, on the site "Sepia Mutiny", "Gaurav" questions "Mahajan >> >>> Skeptic": >> >>> >> >>> "In your scheme of thing I guess India was a Ram Rajya (oops, that is >> >>> communal !), I meant paradise under "sickular" Congress until Devil >> >>> (BJP) >> >>> came and serpent (LKA) robbed Indians of innocence." >> >>> >> >>> >> >>> http://209.85.229.132/search?q=cache:yGIEYP-BFs4J:www.sepiamutiny.com/sepia/archives/003334.html+%22sickular%22&cd=90&hl=en&ct=clnk&gl=ae >> >>> >> >>> >> >>> - May 2006, "Blinded" comments in the "UNITED WE BLOG! FOR A >> >>> DEMOCRATIC >> >>> NEPAL" : >> >>> >> >>> "I am amazed that still you all are not aware of what is true >> >>> secularism >> >>> and what is happening to India due to sickular (secular) ideology!!" >> >>> >> >>> >> >>> http://blog.com.np/united-we-blog/2006/05/18/no-hindu-kingdom-celebrating-secularism-in-nepal/ >> >>> >> >>> >> >>> - May 2006, "SPINDIANMEDIA" titles an entry in Blog of same name: >> >>> >> >>> "Vir Sanghvi's "sickular" double standards on stark display" >> >>> >> >>> >> >>> http://spindianmedia.blogspot.com/2006/05/vir-sanghvis-sickular-double-standards.html >> >>> >> >>> >> >>> - June 2006, we have "Shmuel Kuper" commenting on what appears to be >> >>> an >> >>> Israeli site "CROSS CURRENTS": >> >>> >> >>>  "Hopefully, the readers of this forum do not belong to the >> >>> brainwashed >> >>> sickular public who do not care to read facts that might confuse their >> >>> brainwashed mind, and will find interest in facts rather than >> >>> antisemite >> >>> propaganda, the “isreali” media so excels in, putting the “Jewish” >> >>> state as >> >>> the #1 antisemite state in the Western world." >> >>> >> >>> >> >>> http://www.cross-currents.com/archives/2006/06/28/yisrael-valis-the-court-transcript/ >> >>> >> >>> >> >>> - Jan 2007, on the site INDIANMUSLIMS, "Sharique" writes a piece, >> >>> titling >> >>> it "The SICKular parties" and writes: >> >>> >> >>> "Incidents like these often develop this feeling in me that would >> >>> India >> >>> have been in a much better position as a ‘Hindu Rashtra’ ? At least >> >>> there >> >>> would have been no hypocrisy on the parts of these sickular political >> >>> parties" >> >>> http://indianmuslims.in/the-sickular-parties/ >> >>> >> >>> >> >>> Kshmendra >> >>> >> >>> >> >>> >> >>> >> >>> _________________________________________ >> >>> reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. >> >>> Critiques & Collaborations >> >>> To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with >> >>> subscribe in the subject header. >> >>> To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list >> >>> List archive: >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> -- >> >> >> >> http://indersalim.livejournal.com >> >> _________________________________________ >> >> reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. >> >> Critiques & Collaborations >> >> To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with >> >> subscribe in the subject header. >> >> To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list >> >> List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> >> > >> > >> > >> > -- >> > http://venukm.blogspot.com/ >> > _________________________________________ >> > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. >> > Critiques & Collaborations >> > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with >> > subscribe >> > in the subject header. >> > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list >> > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> >> > >> >> >> >> -- >> http://venukm.blogspot.com/ >> _________________________________________ >> reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. >> Critiques & Collaborations >> To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with >> subscribe in the subject header. >> To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list >> List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> > -- http://venukm.blogspot.com/ From pawan.durani at gmail.com Thu Jun 4 20:02:46 2009 From: pawan.durani at gmail.com (Pawan Durani) Date: Thu, 4 Jun 2009 20:02:46 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Obamas Speech in Cairo Message-ID: <6b79f1a70906040732p28a95dbfl6f9555e8922af7e1@mail.gmail.com> Thank you very much. Good afternoon. I am honored to be in the timeless city of Cairo, and to be hosted by two remarkable institutions. For over a thousand years, Al-Azhar has stood as a beacon of Islamic learning; and for over a century, Cairo University has been a source of Egypt's advancement. And together, you represent the harmony between tradition and progress. I'm grateful for your hospitality, and the hospitality of the people of Egypt. And I'm also proud to carry with me the goodwill of the American people, and a greeting of peace from Muslim communities in my country: Assalaamu alaykum. (Applause.) We meet at a time of great tension between the United States and Muslims around the world -- tension rooted in historical forces that go beyond any current policy debate. The relationship between Islam and the West includes centuries of coexistence and cooperation, but also conflict and religious wars. More recently, tension has been fed by colonialism that denied rights and opportunities to many Muslims, and a Cold War in which Muslim-majority countries were too often treated as proxies without regard to their own aspirations. Moreover, the sweeping change brought by modernity and globalization led many Muslims to view the West as hostile to the traditions of Islam. Violent extremists have exploited these tensions in a small but potent minority of Muslims. The attacks of September 11, 2001 and the continued efforts of these extremists to engage in violence against civilians has led some in my country to view Islam as inevitably hostile not only to America and Western countries, but also to human rights. All this has bred more fear and more mistrust. So long as our relationship is defined by our differences, we will empower those who sow hatred rather than peace, those who promote conflict rather than the cooperation that can help all of our people achieve justice and prosperity. And this cycle of suspicion and discord must end. I've come here to Cairo to seek a new beginning between the United States and Muslims around the world, one based on mutual interest and mutual respect, and one based upon the truth that America and Islam are not exclusive and need not be in competition. Instead, they overlap, and share common principles -- principles of justice and progress; tolerance and the dignity of all human beings. I do so recognizing that change cannot happen overnight. I know there's been a lot of publicity about this speech, but no single speech can eradicate years of mistrust, nor can I answer in the time that I have this afternoon all the complex questions that brought us to this point. But I am convinced that in order to move forward, we must say openly to each other the things we hold in our hearts and that too often are said only behind closed doors. There must be a sustained effort to listen to each other; to learn from each other; to respect one another; and to seek common ground. As the Holy Koran tells us, "Be conscious of God and speak always the truth." (Applause.) That is what I will try to do today -- to speak the truth as best I can, humbled by the task before us, and firm in my belief that the interests we share as human beings are far more powerful than the forces that drive us apart. Now part of this conviction is rooted in my own experience. I'm a Christian, but my father came from a Kenyan family that includes generations of Muslims. As a boy, I spent several years in Indonesia and heard the call of the azaan at the break of dawn and at the fall of dusk. As a young man, I worked in Chicago communities where many found dignity and peace in their Muslim faith. As a student of history, I also know civilization's debt to Islam. It was Islam -- at places like Al-Azhar -- that carried the light of learning through so many centuries, paving the way for Europe's Renaissance and Enlightenment. It was innovation in Muslim communities -- (applause) -- it was innovation in Muslim communities that developed the order of algebra; our magnetic compass and tools of navigation; our mastery of pens and printing; our understanding of how disease spreads and how it can be healed. Islamic culture has given us majestic arches and soaring spires; timeless poetry and cherished music; elegant calligraphy and places of peaceful contemplation. And throughout history, Islam has demonstrated through words and deeds the possibilities of religious tolerance and racial equality. (Applause.) I also know that Islam has always been a part of America's story. The first nation to recognize my country was Morocco. In signing the Treaty of Tripoli in 1796, our second President, John Adams, wrote, "The United States has in itself no character of enmity against the laws, religion or tranquility of Muslims." And since our founding, American Muslims have enriched the United States. They have fought in our wars, they have served in our government, they have stood for civil rights, they have started businesses, they have taught at our universities, they've excelled in our sports arenas, they've won Nobel Prizes, built our tallest building, and lit the Olympic Torch. And when the first Muslim American was recently elected to Congress, he took the oath to defend our Constitution using the same Holy Koran that one of our Founding Fathers -- Thomas Jefferson -- kept in his personal library. (Applause.) So I have known Islam on three continents before coming to the region where it was first revealed. That experience guides my conviction that partnership between America and Islam must be based on what Islam is, not what it isn't. And I consider it part of my responsibility as President of the United States to fight against negative stereotypes of Islam wherever they appear. (Applause.) But that same principle must apply to Muslim perceptions of America. (Applause.) Just as Muslims do not fit a crude stereotype, America is not the crude stereotype of a self-interested empire. The United States has been one of the greatest sources of progress that the world has ever known. We were born out of revolution against an empire. We were founded upon the ideal that all are created equal, and we have shed blood and struggled for centuries to give meaning to those words -- within our borders, and around the world. We are shaped by every culture, drawn from every end of the Earth, and dedicated to a simple concept: E pluribus unum -- "Out of many, one." Now, much has been made of the fact that an African American with the name Barack Hussein Obama could be elected President. (Applause.) But my personal story is not so unique. The dream of opportunity for all people has not come true for everyone in America, but its promise exists for all who come to our shores -- and that includes nearly 7 million American Muslims in our country today who, by the way, enjoy incomes and educational levels that are higher than the American average. (Applause.) Moreover, freedom in America is indivisible from the freedom to practice one's religion. That is why there is a mosque in every state in our union, and over 1,200 mosques within our borders. That's why the United States government has gone to court to protect the right of women and girls to wear the hijab and to punish those who would deny it. (Applause.) So let there be no doubt: Islam is a part of America. And I believe that America holds within her the truth that regardless of race, religion, or station in life, all of us share common aspirations -- to live in peace and security; to get an education and to work with dignity; to love our families, our communities, and our God. These things we share. This is the hope of all humanity. Of course, recognizing our common humanity is only the beginning of our task. Words alone cannot meet the needs of our people. These needs will be met only if we act boldly in the years ahead; and if we understand that the challenges we face are shared, and our failure to meet them will hurt us all. For we have learned from recent experience that when a financial system weakens in one country, prosperity is hurt everywhere. When a new flu infects one human being, all are at risk. When one nation pursues a nuclear weapon, the risk of nuclear attack rises for all nations. When violent extremists operate in one stretch of mountains, people are endangered across an ocean. When innocents in Bosnia and Darfur are slaughtered, that is a stain on our collective conscience. (Applause.) That is what it means to share this world in the 21st century. That is the responsibility we have to one another as human beings. And this is a difficult responsibility to embrace. For human history has often been a record of nations and tribes -- and, yes, religions -- subjugating one another in pursuit of their own interests. Yet in this new age, such attitudes are self-defeating. Given our interdependence, any world order that elevates one nation or group of people over another will inevitably fail. So whatever we think of the past, we must not be prisoners to it. Our problems must be dealt with through partnership; our progress must be shared. (Applause.) Now, that does not mean we should ignore sources of tension. Indeed, it suggests the opposite: We must face these tensions squarely. And so in that spirit, let me speak as clearly and as plainly as I can about some specific issues that I believe we must finally confront together. The first issue that we have to confront is violent extremism in all of its forms. In Ankara, I made clear that America is not -- and never will be -- at war with Islam. (Applause.) We will, however, relentlessly confront violent extremists who pose a grave threat to our security -- because we reject the same thing that people of all faiths reject: the killing of innocent men, women, and children. And it is my first duty as President to protect the American people. The situation in Afghanistan demonstrates America's goals, and our need to work together. Over seven years ago, the United States pursued al Qaeda and the Taliban with broad international support. We did not go by choice; we went because of necessity. I'm aware that there's still some who would question or even justify the events of 9/11. But let us be clear: Al Qaeda killed nearly 3,000 people on that day. The victims were innocent men, women and children from America and many other nations who had done nothing to harm anybody. And yet al Qaeda chose to ruthlessly murder these people, claimed credit for the attack, and even now states their determination to kill on a massive scale. They have affiliates in many countries and are trying to expand their reach. These are not opinions to be debated; these are facts to be dealt with. Now, make no mistake: We do not want to keep our troops in Afghanistan. We see no military -- we seek no military bases there. It is agonizing for America to lose our young men and women. It is costly and politically difficult to continue this conflict. We would gladly bring every single one of our troops home if we could be confident that there were not violent extremists in Afghanistan and now Pakistan determined to kill as many Americans as they possibly can. But that is not yet the case. And that's why we're partnering with a coalition of 46 countries. And despite the costs involved, America's commitment will not weaken. Indeed, none of us should tolerate these extremists. They have killed in many countries. They have killed people of different faiths -- but more than any other, they have killed Muslims. Their actions are irreconcilable with the rights of human beings, the progress of nations, and with Islam. The Holy Koran teaches that whoever kills an innocent is as -- it is as if he has killed all mankind. (Applause.) And the Holy Koran also says whoever saves a person, it is as if he has saved all mankind. (Applause.) The enduring faith of over a billion people is so much bigger than the narrow hatred of a few. Islam is not part of the problem in combating violent extremism -- it is an important part of promoting peace. Now, we also know that military power alone is not going to solve the problems in Afghanistan and Pakistan. That's why we plan to invest $1.5 billion each year over the next five years to partner with Pakistanis to build schools and hospitals, roads and businesses, and hundreds of millions to help those who've been displaced. That's why we are providing more than $2.8 billion to help Afghans develop their economy and deliver services that people depend on. Let me also address the issue of Iraq. Unlike Afghanistan, Iraq was a war of choice that provoked strong differences in my country and around the world. Although I believe that the Iraqi people are ultimately better off without the tyranny of Saddam Hussein, I also believe that events in Iraq have reminded America of the need to use diplomacy and build international consensus to resolve our problems whenever possible. (Applause.) Indeed, we can recall the words of Thomas Jefferson, who said: "I hope that our wisdom will grow with our power, and teach us that the less we use our power the greater it will be." Today, America has a dual responsibility: to help Iraq forge a better future -- and to leave Iraq to Iraqis. And I have made it clear to the Iraqi people -- (applause) -- I have made it clear to the Iraqi people that we pursue no bases, and no claim on their territory or resources. Iraq's sovereignty is its own. And that's why I ordered the removal of our combat brigades by next August. That is why we will honor our agreement with Iraq's democratically elected government to remove combat troops from Iraqi cities by July, and to remove all of our troops from Iraq by 2012. (Applause.) We will help Iraq train its security forces and develop its economy. But we will support a secure and united Iraq as a partner, and never as a patron. And finally, just as America can never tolerate violence by extremists, we must never alter or forget our principles. Nine-eleven was an enormous trauma to our country. The fear and anger that it provoked was understandable, but in some cases, it led us to act contrary to our traditions and our ideals. We are taking concrete actions to change course. I have unequivocally prohibited the use of torture by the United States, and I have ordered the prison at Guantanamo Bay closed by early next year. (Applause.) So America will defend itself, respectful of the sovereignty of nations and the rule of law. And we will do so in partnership with Muslim communities which are also threatened. The sooner the extremists are isolated and unwelcome in Muslim communities, the sooner we will all be safer. The second major source of tension that we need to discuss is the situation between Israelis, Palestinians and the Arab world. America's strong bonds with Israel are well known. This bond is unbreakable. It is based upon cultural and historical ties, and the recognition that the aspiration for a Jewish homeland is rooted in a tragic history that cannot be denied. Around the world, the Jewish people were persecuted for centuries, and anti-Semitism in Europe culminated in an unprecedented Holocaust. Tomorrow, I will visit Buchenwald, which was part of a network of camps where Jews were enslaved, tortured, shot and gassed to death by the Third Reich. Six million Jews were killed -- more than the entire Jewish population of Israel today. Denying that fact is baseless, it is ignorant, and it is hateful. Threatening Israel with destruction -- or repeating vile stereotypes about Jews -- is deeply wrong, and only serves to evoke in the minds of Israelis this most painful of memories while preventing the peace that the people of this region deserve. On the other hand, it is also undeniable that the Palestinian people -- Muslims and Christians -- have suffered in pursuit of a homeland. For more than 60 years they've endured the pain of dislocation. Many wait in refugee camps in the West Bank, Gaza, and neighboring lands for a life of peace and security that they have never been able to lead. They endure the daily humiliations -- large and small -- that come with occupation. So let there be no doubt: The situation for the Palestinian people is intolerable. And America will not turn our backs on the legitimate Palestinian aspiration for dignity, opportunity, and a state of their own. (Applause.) For decades then, there has been a stalemate: two peoples with legitimate aspirations, each with a painful history that makes compromise elusive. It's easy to point fingers -- for Palestinians to point to the displacement brought about by Israel's founding, and for Israelis to point to the constant hostility and attacks throughout its history from within its borders as well as beyond. But if we see this conflict only from one side or the other, then we will be blind to the truth: The only resolution is for the aspirations of both sides to be met through two states, where Israelis and Palestinians each live in peace and security. (Applause.) That is in Israel's interest, Palestine's interest, America's interest, and the world's interest. And that is why I intend to personally pursue this outcome with all the patience and dedication that the task requires. (Applause.) The obligations -- the obligations that the parties have agreed to under the road map are clear. For peace to come, it is time for them -- and all of us -- to live up to our responsibilities. Palestinians must abandon violence. Resistance through violence and killing is wrong and it does not succeed. For centuries, black people in America suffered the lash of the whip as slaves and the humiliation of segregation. But it was not violence that won full and equal rights. It was a peaceful and determined insistence upon the ideals at the center of America's founding. This same story can be told by people from South Africa to South Asia; from Eastern Europe to Indonesia. It's a story with a simple truth: that violence is a dead end. It is a sign neither of courage nor power to shoot rockets at sleeping children, or to blow up old women on a bus. That's not how moral authority is claimed; that's how it is surrendered. Now is the time for Palestinians to focus on what they can build. The Palestinian Authority must develop its capacity to govern, with institutions that serve the needs of its people. Hamas does have support among some Palestinians, but they also have to recognize they have responsibilities. To play a role in fulfilling Palestinian aspirations, to unify the Palestinian people, Hamas must put an end to violence, recognize past agreements, recognize Israel's right to exist. At the same time, Israelis must acknowledge that just as Israel's right to exist cannot be denied, neither can Palestine's. The United States does not accept the legitimacy of continued Israeli settlements. (Applause.) This construction violates previous agreements and undermines efforts to achieve peace. It is time for these settlements to stop. (Applause.) And Israel must also live up to its obligation to ensure that Palestinians can live and work and develop their society. Just as it devastates Palestinian families, the continuing humanitarian crisis in Gaza does not serve Israel's security; neither does the continuing lack of opportunity in the West Bank. Progress in the daily lives of the Palestinian people must be a critical part of a road to peace, and Israel must take concrete steps to enable such progress. And finally, the Arab states must recognize that the Arab Peace Initiative was an important beginning, but not the end of their responsibilities. The Arab-Israeli conflict should no longer be used to distract the people of Arab nations from other problems. Instead, it must be a cause for action to help the Palestinian people develop the institutions that will sustain their state, to recognize Israel's legitimacy, and to choose progress over a self-defeating focus on the past. America will align our policies with those who pursue peace, and we will say in public what we say in private to Israelis and Palestinians and Arabs. (Applause.) We cannot impose peace. But privately, many Muslims recognize that Israel will not go away. Likewise, many Israelis recognize the need for a Palestinian state. It is time for us to act on what everyone knows to be true. Too many tears have been shed. Too much blood has been shed. All of us have a responsibility to work for the day when the mothers of Israelis and Palestinians can see their children grow up without fear; when the Holy Land of the three great faiths is the place of peace that God intended it to be; when Jerusalem is a secure and lasting home for Jews and Christians and Muslims, and a place for all of the children of Abraham to mingle peacefully together as in the story of Isra -- (applause) -- as in the story of Isra, when Moses, Jesus, and Mohammed, peace be upon them, joined in prayer. (Applause.) The third source of tension is our shared interest in the rights and responsibilities of nations on nuclear weapons. This issue has been a source of tension between the United States and the Islamic Republic of Iran. For many years, Iran has defined itself in part by its opposition to my country, and there is in fact a tumultuous history between us. In the middle of the Cold War, the United States played a role in the overthrow of a democratically elected Iranian government. Since the Islamic Revolution, Iran has played a role in acts of hostage-taking and violence against U.S. troops and civilians. This history is well known. Rather than remain trapped in the past, I've made it clear to Iran's leaders and people that my country is prepared to move forward. The question now is not what Iran is against, but rather what future it wants to build. I recognize it will be hard to overcome decades of mistrust, but we will proceed with courage, rectitude, and resolve. There will be many issues to discuss between our two countries, and we are willing to move forward without preconditions on the basis of mutual respect. But it is clear to all concerned that when it comes to nuclear weapons, we have reached a decisive point. This is not simply about America's interests. It's about preventing a nuclear arms race in the Middle East that could lead this region and the world down a hugely dangerous path. I understand those who protest that some countries have weapons that others do not. No single nation should pick and choose which nation holds nuclear weapons. And that's why I strongly reaffirmed America's commitment to seek a world in which no nations hold nuclear weapons. (Applause.) And any nation -- including Iran -- should have the right to access peaceful nuclear power if it complies with its responsibilities under the nuclear Non-Proliferation Treaty. That commitment is at the core of the treaty, and it must be kept for all who fully abide by it. And I'm hopeful that all countries in the region can share in this goal. The fourth issue that I will address is democracy. (Applause.) I know -- I know there has been controversy about the promotion of democracy in recent years, and much of this controversy is connected to the war in Iraq. So let me be clear: No system of government can or should be imposed by one nation by any other. That does not lessen my commitment, however, to governments that reflect the will of the people. Each nation gives life to this principle in its own way, grounded in the traditions of its own people. America does not presume to know what is best for everyone, just as we would not presume to pick the outcome of a peaceful election. But I do have an unyielding belief that all people yearn for certain things: the ability to speak your mind and have a say in how you are governed; confidence in the rule of law and the equal administration of justice; government that is transparent and doesn't steal from the people; the freedom to live as you choose. These are not just American ideas; they are human rights. And that is why we will support them everywhere. (Applause.) Now, there is no straight line to realize this promise. But this much is clear: Governments that protect these rights are ultimately more stable, successful and secure. Suppressing ideas never succeeds in making them go away. America respects the right of all peaceful and law-abiding voices to be heard around the world, even if we disagree with them. And we will welcome all elected, peaceful governments -- provided they govern with respect for all their people. This last point is important because there are some who advocate for democracy only when they're out of power; once in power, they are ruthless in suppressing the rights of others. (Applause.) So no matter where it takes hold, government of the people and by the people sets a single standard for all who would hold power: You must maintain your power through consent, not coercion; you must respect the rights of minorities, and participate with a spirit of tolerance and compromise; you must place the interests of your people and the legitimate workings of the political process above your party. Without these ingredients, elections alone do not make true democracy. AUDIENCE MEMBER: Barack Obama, we love you! PRESIDENT OBAMA: Thank you. (Applause.) The fifth issue that we must address together is religious freedom. Islam has a proud tradition of tolerance. We see it in the history of Andalusia and Cordoba during the Inquisition. I saw it firsthand as a child in Indonesia, where devout Christians worshiped freely in an overwhelmingly Muslim country. That is the spirit we need today. People in every country should be free to choose and live their faith based upon the persuasion of the mind and the heart and the soul. This tolerance is essential for religion to thrive, but it's being challenged in many different ways. Among some Muslims, there's a disturbing tendency to measure one's own faith by the rejection of somebody else's faith. The richness of religious diversity must be upheld -- whether it is for Maronites in Lebanon or the Copts in Egypt. (Applause.) And if we are being honest, fault lines must be closed among Muslims, as well, as the divisions between Sunni and Shia have led to tragic violence, particularly in Iraq. Freedom of religion is central to the ability of peoples to live together. We must always examine the ways in which we protect it. For instance, in the United States, rules on charitable giving have made it harder for Muslims to fulfill their religious obligation. That's why I'm committed to working with American Muslims to ensure that they can fulfill zakat. Likewise, it is important for Western countries to avoid impeding Muslim citizens from practicing religion as they see fit -- for instance, by dictating what clothes a Muslim woman should wear. We can't disguise hostility towards any religion behind the pretence of liberalism. In fact, faith should bring us together. And that's why we're forging service projects in America to bring together Christians, Muslims, and Jews. That's why we welcome efforts like Saudi Arabian King Abdullah's interfaith dialogue and Turkey's leadership in the Alliance of Civilizations. Around the world, we can turn dialogue into interfaith service, so bridges between peoples lead to action -- whether it is combating malaria in Africa, or providing relief after a natural disaster. The sixth issue -- the sixth issue that I want to address is women's rights. (Applause.) I know –- I know -- and you can tell from this audience, that there is a healthy debate about this issue. I reject the view of some in the West that a woman who chooses to cover her hair is somehow less equal, but I do believe that a woman who is denied an education is denied equality. (Applause.) And it is no coincidence that countries where women are well educated are far more likely to be prosperous. Now, let me be clear: Issues of women's equality are by no means simply an issue for Islam. In Turkey, Pakistan, Bangladesh, Indonesia, we've seen Muslim-majority countries elect a woman to lead. Meanwhile, the struggle for women's equality continues in many aspects of American life, and in countries around the world. I am convinced that our daughters can contribute just as much to society as our sons. (Applause.) Our common prosperity will be advanced by allowing all humanity -- men and women -- to reach their full potential. I do not believe that women must make the same choices as men in order to be equal, and I respect those women who choose to live their lives in traditional roles. But it should be their choice. And that is why the United States will partner with any Muslim-majority country to support expanded literacy for girls, and to help young women pursue employment through micro-financing that helps people live their dreams. (Applause.) Finally, I want to discuss economic development and opportunity. I know that for many, the face of globalization is contradictory. The Internet and television can bring knowledge and information, but also offensive sexuality and mindless violence into the home. Trade can bring new wealth and opportunities, but also huge disruptions and change in communities. In all nations -- including America -- this change can bring fear. Fear that because of modernity we lose control over our economic choices, our politics, and most importantly our identities -- those things we most cherish about our communities, our families, our traditions, and our faith. But I also know that human progress cannot be denied. There need not be contradictions between development and tradition. Countries like Japan and South Korea grew their economies enormously while maintaining distinct cultures. The same is true for the astonishing progress within Muslim-majority countries from Kuala Lumpur to Dubai. In ancient times and in our times, Muslim communities have been at the forefront of innovation and education. And this is important because no development strategy can be based only upon what comes out of the ground, nor can it be sustained while young people are out of work. Many Gulf states have enjoyed great wealth as a consequence of oil, and some are beginning to focus it on broader development. But all of us must recognize that education and innovation will be the currency of the 21st century -- (applause) -- and in too many Muslim communities, there remains underinvestment in these areas. I'm emphasizing such investment within my own country. And while America in the past has focused on oil and gas when it comes to this part of the world, we now seek a broader engagement. On education, we will expand exchange programs, and increase scholarships, like the one that brought my father to America. (Applause.) At the same time, we will encourage more Americans to study in Muslim communities. And we will match promising Muslim students with internships in America; invest in online learning for teachers and children around the world; and create a new online network, so a young person in Kansas can communicate instantly with a young person in Cairo. On economic development, we will create a new corps of business volunteers to partner with counterparts in Muslim-majority countries. And I will host a Summit on Entrepreneurship this year to identify how we can deepen ties between business leaders, foundations and social entrepreneurs in the United States and Muslim communities around the world. On science and technology, we will launch a new fund to support technological development in Muslim-majority countries, and to help transfer ideas to the marketplace so they can create more jobs. We'll open centers of scientific excellence in Africa, the Middle East and Southeast Asia, and appoint new science envoys to collaborate on programs that develop new sources of energy, create green jobs, digitize records, clean water, grow new crops. Today I'm announcing a new global effort with the Organization of the Islamic Conference to eradicate polio. And we will also expand partnerships with Muslim communities to promote child and maternal health. All these things must be done in partnership. Americans are ready to join with citizens and governments; community organizations, religious leaders, and businesses in Muslim communities around the world to help our people pursue a better life. The issues that I have described will not be easy to address. But we have a responsibility to join together on behalf of the world that we seek -- a world where extremists no longer threaten our people, and American troops have come home; a world where Israelis and Palestinians are each secure in a state of their own, and nuclear energy is used for peaceful purposes; a world where governments serve their citizens, and the rights of all God's children are respected. Those are mutual interests. That is the world we seek. But we can only achieve it together. I know there are many -- Muslim and non-Muslim -- who question whether we can forge this new beginning. Some are eager to stoke the flames of division, and to stand in the way of progress. Some suggest that it isn't worth the effort -- that we are fated to disagree, and civilizations are doomed to clash. Many more are simply skeptical that real change can occur. There's so much fear, so much mistrust that has built up over the years. But if we choose to be bound by the past, we will never move forward. And I want to particularly say this to young people of every faith, in every country -- you, more than anyone, have the ability to reimagine the world, to remake this world. All of us share this world for but a brief moment in time. The question is whether we spend that time focused on what pushes us apart, or whether we commit ourselves to an effort -- a sustained effort -- to find common ground, to focus on the future we seek for our children, and to respect the dignity of all human beings. It's easier to start wars than to end them. It's easier to blame others than to look inward. It's easier to see what is different about someone than to find the things we share. But we should choose the right path, not just the easy path. There's one rule that lies at the heart of every religion -- that we do unto others as we would have them do unto us. (Applause.) This truth transcends nations and peoples -- a belief that isn't new; that isn't black or white or brown; that isn't Christian or Muslim or Jew. It's a belief that pulsed in the cradle of civilization, and that still beats in the hearts of billions around the world. It's a faith in other people, and it's what brought me here today. We have the power to make the world we seek, but only if we have the courage to make a new beginning, keeping in mind what has been written. The Holy Koran tells us: "O mankind! We have created you male and a female; and we have made you into nations and tribes so that you may know one another." The Talmud tells us: "The whole of the Torah is for the purpose of promoting peace." The Holy Bible tells us: "Blessed are the peacemakers, for they shall be called sons of God." (Applause.) The people of the world can live together in peace. We know that is God's vision. Now that must be our work here on Earth. Thank you. And may God's peace be upon you. Thank you very much. Thank you. http://www.whitehouse.gov/the_press_office/Remarks-by-the-President-at-Cairo-University-6-04-09/ From faiz.outsider at gmail.com Thu Jun 4 20:02:43 2009 From: faiz.outsider at gmail.com (faiz ullah) Date: Thu, 4 Jun 2009 20:02:43 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Obama's in Cairo Message-ID: <96c0bb200906040732u110e59batd12a4dadf5e30b3d@mail.gmail.com> >From The US Consulate.. 009 *REMARKS OF PRESIDENT BARACK OBAMA* *A New Beginning* *Cairo**, Egypt* *June 4, 2009* I am honored to be in the timeless city of Cairo, and to be hosted by two remarkable institutions. For over a thousand years, Al-Azhar has stood as a beacon of Islamic learning, and for over a century, Cairo University has been a source of Egypt’s advancement. Together, you represent the harmony between tradition and progress. I am grateful for your hospitality, and the hospitality of the people of Egypt. I am also proud to carry with me the goodwill of the American people, and a greeting of peace from Muslim communities in my country:* assalaamu alaykum*. We meet at a time of tension between the United States and Muslims around the world – tension rooted in historical forces that go beyond any current policy debate. The relationship between Islam and the West includes centuries of co-existence and cooperation, but also conflict and religious wars. More recently, tension has been fed by colonialism that denied rights and opportunities to many Muslims, and a Cold War in which Muslim-majority countries were too often treated as proxies without regard to their own aspirations. Moreover, the sweeping change brought by modernity and globalization led many Muslims to view the West as hostile to the traditions of Islam. Violent extremists have exploited these tensions in a small but potent minority of Muslims. The attacks of September 11th, 2001 and the continued efforts of these extremists to engage in violence against civilians has led some in my country to view Islam as inevitably hostile not only to America and Western countries, but also to human rights. This has bred more fear and mistrust. So long as our relationship is defined by our differences, we will empower those who sow hatred rather than peace, and who promote conflict rather than the cooperation that can help all of our people achieve justice and prosperity. This cycle of suspicion and discord must end. I have come here to seek a new beginning between the United States and Muslims around the world; one based upon mutual interest and mutual respect; and one based upon the truth that America and Islam are not exclusive, and need not be in competition. Instead, they overlap, and share common principles – principles of justice and progress; tolerance and the dignity of all human beings. I do so recognizing that change cannot happen overnight. No single speech can eradicate years of mistrust, nor can I answer in the time that I have all the complex questions that brought us to this point. But I am convinced that in order to move forward, we must say openly the things we hold in our hearts, and that too often are said only behind closed doors. There must be a sustained effort to listen to each other; to learn from each other; to respect one another; and to seek common ground. As the Holy Koran tells us, “Be conscious of God and speak always the truth.” That is what I will try to do – to speak the truth as best I can, humbled by the task before us, and firm in my belief that the interests we share as human beings are far more powerful than the forces that drive us apart. Part of this conviction is rooted in my own experience. I am a Christian, but my father came from a Kenyan family that includes generations of Muslims. As a boy, I spent several years in Indonesia and heard the call of the* azaan* at the break of dawn and the fall of dusk. As a young man, I worked in Chicago communities where many found dignity and peace in their Muslim faith. As a student of history, I also know civilization’s debt to Islam. It was Islam – at places like Al-Azhar University – that carried the light of learning through so many centuries, paving the way for Europe’s Renaissance and Enlightenment. It was innovation in Muslim communities that developed the order of algebra; our magnetic compass and tools of navigation; our mastery of pens and printing; our understanding of how disease spreads and how it can be healed. Islamic culture has given us majestic arches and soaring spires; timeless poetry and cherished music; elegant calligraphy and places of peaceful contemplation. And throughout history, Islam has demonstrated through words and deeds the possibilities of religious tolerance and racial equality. I know, too, that Islam has always been a part of America’s story. The first nation to recognize my country was Morocco. In signing the Treaty of Tripoli in 1796, our second President John Adams wrote, "The United States has in itself no character of enmity against the laws, religion or tranquility of Muslims." And since our founding, American Muslims have enriched the United States. They have fought in our wars, served in government, stood for civil rights, started businesses, taught at our Universities, excelled in our sports arenas, won Nobel Prizes, built our tallest building, and lit the Olympic Torch. And when the first Muslim-American was recently elected to Congress, he took the oath to defend our Constitution using the same Holy Koran that one of our Founding Fathers – Thomas Jefferson – kept in his personal library. So I have known Islam on three continents before coming to the region where it was first revealed. That experience guides my conviction that partnership between America and Islam must be based on what Islam is, not what it isn’t. And I consider it part of my responsibility as President of the United States to fight against negative stereotypes of Islam wherever they appear. But that same principle must apply to Muslim perceptions of America. Just as Muslims do not fit a crude stereotype, America is not the crude stereotype of a self-interested empire. The United States has been one of the greatest sources of progress that the world has ever known. We were born out of revolution against an empire. We were founded upon the ideal that all are created equal, and we have shed blood and struggled for centuries to give meaning to those words – within our borders, and around the world. We are shaped by every culture, drawn from every end of the Earth, and dedicated to a simple concept:* E pluribus unum*: "Out of many, one." Much has been made of the fact that an African-American with the name Barack Hussein Obama could be elected President. But my personal story is not so unique. The dream of opportunity for all people has not come true for everyone in America, but its promise exists for all who come to our shores – that includes nearly seven million American Muslims in our country today who enjoy incomes and education that are higher than average. Moreover, freedom in America is indivisible from the freedom to practice one’s religion. That is why there is a mosque in every state of our union, and over 1,200 mosques within our borders. That is why the U.S. government has gone to court to protect the right of women and girls to wear the* hijab,* and to punish those who would deny it. So let there be no doubt: Islam is a part of America. And I believe that America holds within her the truth that regardless of race, religion, or station in life, all of us share common aspirations – to live in peace and security; to get an education and to work with dignity; to love our families, our communities, and our God. These things we share. This is the hope of all humanity. Of course, recognizing our common humanity is only the beginning of our task. Words alone cannot meet the needs of our people. These needs will be met only if we act boldly in the years ahead; and if we understand that the challenges we face are shared, and our failure to meet them will hurt us all. For we have learned from recent experience that when a financial system weakens in one country, prosperity is hurt everywhere. When a new flu infects one human being, all are at risk. When one nation pursues a nuclear weapon, the risk of nuclear attack rises for all nations. When violent extremists operate in one stretch of mountains, people are endangered across an ocean. And when innocents in Bosnia and Darfur are slaughtered, that is a stain on our collective conscience. That is what it means to share this world in the 21st century. That is the responsibility we have to one another as human beings. This is a difficult responsibility to embrace. For human history has often been a record of nations and tribes subjugating one another to serve their own interests. Yet in this new age, such attitudes are self-defeating. Given our interdependence, any world order that elevates one nation or group of people over another will inevitably fail. So whatever we think of the past, we must not be prisoners of it. Our problems must be dealt with through partnership; progress must be shared. That does not mean we should ignore sources of tension. Indeed, it suggests the opposite: we must face these tensions squarely. And so in that spirit, let me speak as clearly and plainly as I can about some specific issues that I believe we must finally confront together. The first issue that we have to confront is violent extremism in all of its forms. In Ankara, I made clear that America is not – and never will be – at war with Islam. We will, however, relentlessly confront violent extremists who pose a grave threat to our security. Because we reject the same thing that people of all faiths reject: the killing of innocent men, women, and children. And it is my first duty as President to protect the American people. The situation in Afghanistan demonstrates America’s goals, and our need to work together. Over seven years ago, the United States pursued al Qaeda and the Taliban with broad international support. We did not go by choice, we went because of necessity. I am aware that some question or justify the events of 9/11. But let us be clear: al Qaeda killed nearly 3,000 people on that day. The victims were innocent men, women and children from America and many other nations who had done nothing to harm anybody. And yet Al Qaeda chose to ruthlessly murder these people, claimed credit for the attack, and even now states their determination to kill on a massive scale. They have affiliates in many countries and are trying to expand their reach. These are not opinions to be debated; these are facts to be dealt with. Make no mistake: we do not want to keep our troops in Afghanistan. We seek no military bases there. It is agonizing for America to lose our young men and women. It is costly and politically difficult to continue this conflict. We would gladly bring every single one of our troops home if we could be confident that there were not violent extremists in Afghanistan and Pakistan determined to kill as many Americans as they possibly can. But that is not yet the case. That’s why we’re partnering with a coalition of forty-six countries. And despite the costs involved, America’s commitment will not weaken. Indeed, none of us should tolerate these extremists. They have killed in many countries. They have killed people of different faiths – more than any other, they have killed Muslims. Their actions are irreconcilable with the rights of human beings, the progress of nations, and with Islam. The Holy Koran teaches that whoever kills an innocent, it is as if he has killed all mankind; and whoever saves a person, it is as if he has saved all mankind. The enduring faith of over a billion people is so much bigger than the narrow hatred of a few. Islam is not part of the problem in combating violent extremism – it is an important part of promoting peace. We also know that military power alone is not going to solve the problems in Afghanistan and Pakistan. That is why we plan to invest $1.5 billion each year over the next five years to partner with Pakistanis to build schools and hospitals, roads and businesses, and hundreds of millions to help those who have been displaced. And that is why we are providing more than $2.8 billion to help Afghans develop their economy and deliver services that people depend upon. Let me also address the issue of Iraq. Unlike Afghanistan, Iraq was a war of choice that provoked strong differences in my country and around the world. Although I believe that the Iraqi people are ultimately better off without the tyranny of Saddam Hussein, I also believe that events in Iraq have reminded America of the need to use diplomacy and build international consensus to resolve our problems whenever possible. Indeed, we can recall the words of Thomas Jefferson, who said: “I hope that our wisdom will grow with our power, and teach us that the less we use our power the greater it will be.” Today, America has a dual responsibility: to help Iraq forge a better future – and to leave Iraq to Iraqis. I have made it clear to the Iraqi people that we pursue no bases, and no claim on their territory or resources. Iraq’s sovereignty is its own. That is why I ordered the removal of our combat brigades by next August. That is why we will honor our agreement with Iraq’s democratically-elected government to remove combat troops from Iraqi cities by July, and to remove all our troops from Iraq by 2012. We will help Iraq train its Security Forces and develop its economy. But we will support a secure and united Iraq as a partner, and never as a patron. And finally, just as America can never tolerate violence by extremists, we must never alter our principles. 9/11 was an enormous trauma to our country. The fear and anger that it provoked was understandable, but in some cases, it led us to act contrary to our ideals. We are taking concrete actions to change course. I have unequivocally prohibited the use of torture by the United States, and I have ordered the prison at Guantanamo Bay closed by early next year. So America will defend itself respectful of the sovereignty of nations and the rule of law. And we will do so in partnership with Muslim communities which are also threatened. The sooner the extremists are isolated and unwelcome in Muslim communities, the sooner we will all be safer. The second major source of tension that we need to discuss is the situation between Israelis, Palestinians and the Arab world. America’s strong bonds with Israel are well known. This bond is unbreakable. It is based upon cultural and historical ties, and the recognition that the aspiration for a Jewish homeland is rooted in a tragic history that cannot be denied. Around the world, the Jewish people were persecuted for centuries, and anti-Semitism in Europe culminated in an unprecedented Holocaust. Tomorrow, I will visit Buchenwald, which was part of a network of camps where Jews were enslaved, tortured, shot and gassed to death by the Third Reich. Six million Jews were killed – more than the entire Jewish population of Israel today. Denying that fact is baseless, ignorant, and hateful. Threatening Israel with destruction – or repeating vile stereotypes about Jews – is deeply wrong, and only serves to evoke in the minds of Israelis this most painful of memories while preventing the peace that the people of this region deserve. On the other hand, it is also undeniable that the Palestinian people – Muslims and Christians – have suffered in pursuit of a homeland. For more than sixty years they have endured the pain of dislocation. Many wait in refugee camps in the West Bank, Gaza, and neighboring lands for a life of peace and security that they have never been able to lead. They endure the daily humiliations – large and small – that come with occupation. So let there be no doubt: the situation for the Palestinian people is intolerable. America will not turn our backs on the legitimate Palestinian aspiration for dignity, opportunity, and a state of their own. For decades, there has been a stalemate: two peoples with legitimate aspirations, each with a painful history that makes compromise elusive. It is easy to point fingers – for Palestinians to point to the displacement brought by Israel’s founding, and for Israelis to point to the constant hostility and attacks throughout its history from within its borders as well as beyond. But if we see this conflict only from one side or the other, then we will be blind to the truth: the only resolution is for the aspirations of both sides to be met through two states, where Israelis and Palestinians each live in peace and security. That is in Israel’s interest, Palestine’s interest, America’s interest, and the world’s interest. That is why I intend to personally pursue this outcome with all the patience that the task requires. The obligations that the parties have agreed to under the Road Map are clear. For peace to come, it is time for them – and all of us – to live up to our responsibilities. Palestinians must abandon violence. Resistance through violence and killing is wrong and does not succeed. For centuries, black people in America suffered the lash of the whip as slaves and the humiliation of segregation. But it was not violence that won full and equal rights. It was a peaceful and determined insistence upon the ideals at the center of America’s founding. This same story can be told by people from South Africa to South Asia; from Eastern Europe to Indonesia. It’s a story with a simple truth: that violence is a dead end. It is a sign of neither courage nor power to shoot rockets at sleeping children, or to blow up old women on a bus. That is not how moral authority is claimed; that is how it is surrendered. Now is the time for Palestinians to focus on what they can build. The Palestinian Authority must develop its capacity to govern, with institutions that serve the needs of its people. Hamas does have support among some Palestinians, but they also have responsibilities. To play a role in fulfilling Palestinian aspirations, and to unify the Palestinian people, Hamas must put an end to violence, recognize past agreements, and recognize Israel’s right to exist. At the same time, Israelis must acknowledge that just as Israel’s right to exist cannot be denied, neither can Palestine’s. The United States does not accept the legitimacy of continued Israeli settlements. This construction violates previous agreements and undermines efforts to achieve peace. It is time for these settlements to stop. Israel must also live up to its obligations to ensure that Palestinians can live, and work, and develop their society. And just as it devastates Palestinian families, the continuing humanitarian crisis in Gaza does not serve Israel’s security; neither does the continuing lack of opportunity in the West Bank. Progress in the daily lives of the Palestinian people must be part of a road to peace, and Israel must take concrete steps to enable such progress. Finally, the Arab States must recognize that the Arab Peace Initiative was an important beginning, but not the end of their responsibilities. The Arab-Israeli conflict should no longer be used to distract the people of Arab nations from other problems. Instead, it must be a cause for action to help the Palestinian people develop the institutions that will sustain their state; to recognize Israel’s legitimacy; and to choose progress over a self-defeating focus on the past. America will align our policies with those who pursue peace, and say in public what we say in private to Israelis and Palestinians and Arabs. We cannot impose peace. But privately, many Muslims recognize that Israel will not go away. Likewise, many Israelis recognize the need for a Palestinian state. It is time for us to act on what everyone knows to be true. Too many tears have flowed. Too much blood has been shed. All of us have a responsibility to work for the day when the mothers of Israelis and Palestinians can see their children grow up without fear; when the Holy Land of three great faiths is the place of peace that God intended it to be; when Jerusalem is a secure and lasting home for Jews and Christians and Muslims, and a place for all of the children of Abraham to mingle peacefully together as in the story of Isra, when Moses, Jesus, and Mohammed (peace be upon them) joined in prayer. The third source of tension is our shared interest in the rights and responsibilities of nations on nuclear weapons. This issue has been a source of tension between the United States and the Islamic Republic of Iran. For many years, Iran has defined itself in part by its opposition to my country, and there is indeed a tumultuous history between us. In the middle of the Cold War, the United States played a role in the overthrow of a democratically-elected Iranian government. Since the Islamic Revolution, Iran has played a role in acts of hostage-taking and violence against U.S. troops and civilians. This history is well known. Rather than remain trapped in the past, I have made it clear to Iran’s leaders and people that my country is prepared to move forward. The question, now, is not what Iran is against, but rather what future it wants to build. It will be hard to overcome decades of mistrust, but we will proceed with courage, rectitude and resolve. There will be many issues to discuss between our two countries, and we are willing to move forward without preconditions on the basis of mutual respect. But it is clear to all concerned that when it comes to nuclear weapons, we have reached a decisive point. This is not simply about America’s interests. It is about preventing a nuclear arms race in the Middle East that could lead this region and the world down a hugely dangerous path. I understand those who protest that some countries have weapons that others do not. No single nation should pick and choose which nations hold nuclear weapons. That is why I strongly reaffirmed America’s commitment to seek a world in which* no* nations hold nuclear weapons. And any nation – including Iran – should have the right to access peaceful nuclear power if it complies with its responsibilities under the nuclear Non-Proliferation Treaty. That commitment is at the core of the Treaty, and it must be kept for all who fully abide by it. And I am hopeful that all countries in the region can share in this goal. The fourth issue that I will address is democracy. I know there has been controversy about the promotion of democracy in recent years, and much of this controversy is connected to the war in Iraq. So let me be clear: no system of government can or should be imposed upon one nation by any other. That does not lessen my commitment, however, to governments that reflect the will of the people. Each nation gives life to this principle in its own way, grounded in the traditions of its own people. America does not presume to know what is best for everyone, just as we would not presume to pick the outcome of a peaceful election. But I do have an unyielding belief that all people yearn for certain things: the ability to speak your mind and have a say in how you are governed; confidence in the rule of law and the equal administration of justice; government that is transparent and doesn’t steal from the people; the freedom to live as you choose. Those are not just American ideas, they are human rights, and that is why we will support them everywhere. There is no straight line to realize this promise. But this much is clear: governments that protect these rights are ultimately more stable, successful and secure. Suppressing ideas never succeeds in making them go away. America respects the right of all peaceful and law-abiding voices to be heard around the world, even if we disagree with them. And we will welcome all elected, peaceful governments – provided they govern with respect for all their people. This last point is important because there are some who advocate for democracy only when they are out of power; once in power, they are ruthless in suppressing the rights of others. No matter where it takes hold, government of the people and by the people sets a single standard for all who hold power: you must maintain your power through consent, not coercion; you must respect the rights of minorities, and participate with a spirit of tolerance and compromise; you must place the interests of your people and the legitimate workings of the political process above your party. Without these ingredients, elections alone do not make true democracy. The fifth issue that we must address together is religious freedom. Islam has a proud tradition of tolerance. We see it in the history of Andalusia and Cordoba during the Inquisition. I saw it firsthand as a child in Indonesia, where devout Christians worshiped freely in an overwhelmingly Muslim country. That is the spirit we need today. People in every country should be free to choose and live their faith based upon the persuasion of the mind, heart, and soul. This tolerance is essential for religion to thrive, but it is being challenged in many different ways. Among some Muslims, there is a disturbing tendency to measure one’s own faith by the rejection of another’s. The richness of religious diversity must be upheld – whether it is for Maronites in Lebanon or the Copts in Egypt. And fault lines must be closed among Muslims as well, as the divisions between Sunni and Shia have led to tragic violence, particularly in Iraq. Freedom of religion is central to the ability of peoples to live together. We must always examine the ways in which we protect it. For instance, in the United States, rules on charitable giving have made it harder for Muslims to fulfill their religious obligation. That is why I am committed to working with American Muslims to ensure that they can fulfill*zakat *. Likewise, it is important for Western countries to avoid impeding Muslim citizens from practicing religion as they see fit – for instance, by dictating what clothes a Muslim woman should wear. We cannot disguise hostility towards any religion behind the pretence of liberalism. Indeed, faith should bring us together. That is why we are forging service projects in America that bring together Christians, Muslims, and Jews. That is why we welcome efforts like Saudi Arabian King Abdullah’s Interfaith dialogue and Turkey’s leadership in the Alliance of Civilizations. Around the world, we can turn dialogue into Interfaith service, so bridges between peoples lead to action – whether it is combating malaria in Africa, or providing relief after a natural disaster. The sixth issue that I want to address is women’s rights. I know there is debate about this issue. I reject the view of some in the West that a woman who chooses to cover her hair is somehow less equal, but I do believe that a woman who is denied an education is denied equality. And it is no coincidence that countries where women are well-educated are far more likely to be prosperous. Now let me be clear: issues of women’s equality are by no means simply an issue for Islam. In Turkey, Pakistan, Bangladesh and Indonesia, we have seen Muslim-majority countries elect a woman to lead. Meanwhile, the struggle for women’s equality continues in many aspects of American life, and in countries around the world. Our daughters can contribute just as much to society as our sons, and our common prosperity will be advanced by allowing all humanity – men and women – to reach their full potential. I do not believe that women must make the same choices as men in order to be equal, and I respect those women who choose to live their lives in traditional roles. But it should be their choice. That is why the United States will partner with any Muslim-majority country to support expanded literacy for girls, and to help young women pursue employment through micro-financing that helps people live their dreams. Finally, I want to discuss economic development and opportunity. I know that for many, the face of globalization is contradictory. The Internet and television can bring knowledge and information, but also offensive sexuality and mindless violence. Trade can bring new wealth and opportunities, but also huge disruptions and changing communities. In all nations – including my own – this change can bring fear. Fear that because of modernity we will lose of control over our economic choices, our politics, and most importantly our identities – those things we most cherish about our communities, our families, our traditions, and our faith. But I also know that human progress cannot be denied. There need not be contradiction between development and tradition. Countries like Japan and South Korea grew their economies while maintaining distinct cultures. The same is true for the astonishing progress within Muslim-majority countries from Kuala Lumpur to Dubai. In ancient times and in our times, Muslim communities have been at the forefront of innovation and education. This is important because no development strategy can be based only upon what comes out of the ground, nor can it be sustained while young people are out of work. Many Gulf States have enjoyed great wealth as a consequence of oil, and some are beginning to focus it on broader development. But all of us must recognize that education and innovation will be the currency of the 21st century, and in too many Muslim communities there remains underinvestment in these areas. I am emphasizing such investments within my country. And while America in the past has focused on oil and gas in this part of the world, we now seek a broader engagement. On education, we will expand exchange programs, and increase scholarships, like the one that brought my father to America, while encouraging more Americans to study in Muslim communities. And we will match promising Muslim students with internships in America; invest in on-line learning for teachers and children around the world; and create a new online network, so a teenager in Kansas can communicate instantly with a teenager in Cairo. On economic development, we will create a new corps of business volunteers to partner with counterparts in Muslim-majority countries. And I will host a Summit on Entrepreneurship this year to identify how we can deepen ties between business leaders, foundations and social entrepreneurs in the United States and Muslim communities around the world. On science and technology, we will launch a new fund to support technological development in Muslim-majority countries, and to help transfer ideas to the marketplace so they can create jobs. We will open centers of scientific excellence in Africa, the Middle East and Southeast Asia, and appoint new Science Envoys to collaborate on programs that develop new sources of energy, create green jobs, digitize records, clean water, and grow new crops. And today I am announcing a new global effort with the Organization of the Islamic Conference to eradicate polio. And we will also expand partnerships with Muslim communities to promote child and maternal health. All these things must be done in partnership. Americans are ready to join with citizens and governments; community organizations, religious leaders, and businesses in Muslim communities around the world to help our people pursue a better life. The issues that I have described will not be easy to address. But we have a responsibility to join together on behalf of the world we seek – a world where extremists no longer threaten our people, and American troops have come home; a world where Israelis and Palestinians are each secure in a state of their own, and nuclear energy is used for peaceful purposes; a world where governments serve their citizens, and the rights of all God’s children are respected. Those are mutual interests. That is the world we seek. But we can only achieve it together. I know there are many – Muslim and non-Muslim – who question whether we can forge this new beginning. Some are eager to stoke the flames of division, and to stand in the way of progress. Some suggest that it isn’t worth the effort – that we are fated to disagree, and civilizations are doomed to clash. Many more are simply skeptical that real change can occur. There is so much fear, so much mistrust. But if we choose to be bound by the past, we will never move forward. And I want to particularly say this to young people of every faith, in every country – you, more than anyone, have the ability to remake this world. All of us share this world for but a brief moment in time. The question is whether we spend that time focused on what pushes us apart, or whether we commit ourselves to an effort – a sustained effort – to find common ground, to focus on the future we seek for our children, and to respect the dignity of all human beings. It is easier to start wars than to end them. It is easier to blame others than to look inward; to see what is different about someone than to find the things we share. But we should choose the right path, not just the easy path. There is also one rule that lies at the heart of every religion –that we do unto others as we would have them do unto us. This truth transcends nations and peoples – a belief that isn’t new; that isn’t black or white or brown; that isn’t Christian, or Muslim or Jew. It’s a belief that pulsed in the cradle of civilization, and that still beats in the heart of billions. It’s a faith in other people, and it’s what brought me here today. We have the power to make the world we seek, but only if we have the courage to make a new beginning, keeping in mind what has been written. The Holy Koran tells us, “O mankind! We have created you male and a female; and we have made you into nations and tribes so that you may know one another.” The Talmud tells us: “The whole of the Torah is for the purpose of promoting peace.” The Holy Bible tells us, “Blessed are the peacemakers, for they shall be called sons of God.” The people of the world can live together in peace. We know that is God’s vision. Now, that must be our work here on Earth. Thank you. And may God’s peace be upon you. -- faiz From shuddha at sarai.net Thu Jun 4 20:02:07 2009 From: shuddha at sarai.net (Shuddhabrata Sengupta) Date: Thu, 4 Jun 2009 20:02:07 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Remembering Tienanmen Square on the 4th of June Message-ID: <338A85AE-3387-4E35-BEED-6B4F7BFF10A3@sarai.net> Dear All, Twenty years ago, the dictatorship that rules China crushed a peaceful gathering of students and young people in Tiananmen Square, leading to large numbers of deaths. That day, I think I came of age, politically. It taught me, that the realities I held in the highest esteem could suddenly, over night reveal themselves to be monsters. There was no quicker way to grow up, suddenly. I was an undergraduate student in Delhi University at that time, and a member (not overly active) of the Students Federation of India, a front organization of the Communist Party of India (Marxist). I had been following, with close interest, the events unfolding in Beijing, where what seemed to be an entire generation of students and young people had been assembling, peacefully, for more than two months, in support of political reform, openness and democracy. For me, as for many others who identified with the left in India, and elsewhere, the students movement was of enormous significance, as it pointed towards the possibility of a dynamic socialist democracy. We were buoyed by the cheerfulness of our Chinese student comrades, followed every communique, every slogan with care and affection, and said to ourselves, "see, they sing the Internationale". The 'official party line' in the CPI(M), as it filtered down to our 'student cell' while not enthusiastic, was tolerant, in a patronizing sort of way, of our 'youthful' enthusiasm for the Chinese students. All this changed after the 4th of June. Those at the 'party centre' who had expressed their soft spoken approval of the calls for democracy in China, as an example of the resilience and flexibility of actually existing Socialism, were suddenly forthright in their condemnation of the students, and in their justification of the Chinese regime's massacre of their (and our) hopes. I recall my somewhat agitated conversation with a 'student leader' of the SFI. "But Comarde, they (the students) were singing the Internationale (the Communist Anthem) and the party ordered tanks on them." "Their is a difference between subjective conditions and objective conditions." " But till yesterday they were our heroes, and you did not disapprove, and now you are calling them Imerialist agents. " "You don't understand dialectics. " This was a form of dialectics that I have since then, chosen not to understand. I recall not being able to sleep, reading the Economic and Philosophic Manuscripts of Marx, and writings on the Paris Commune. I recall an ashen silence at home. I think it was the next day that we all saw the photograph of the lone man in front of the tanks. It stayed for many years, cut out of the newspaper, stuck to a wall in my room. The next day, a rag tag group of people, perhaps fifty odd in number, gathered in Delhi and decided to march to the Chinese embassy. I remember listening to Dilip Simeon, sometime naxalite, then Trotskyist, and widely respected history teacher in Delhi university speaking to us at this gathering. We carried a simple large black banner which said - "Condemn Murder of Socialism in China" in large white letters. There was a small cordon of policemen near Teen Murti Bhavan, we were not allowed to get into Chanakyapuri (the Diplomatic Enclave), let alone near the Chinese Embassy. Afterwards, we sat, bewildered, sad, on a traffic island. Not much was said. A hastily written press statement was drafted, and laboriously copied by hand by those who had neat handwriting, I was deputed to go and drop this statement at various newspaper offices, which I did. I do not think anyone in the newspapers in Delhi took it seriously. I do not remember it being published, anywhere. I decided that I would relinquish my membership of the SFI, and abandon all hopes of a life with the CPI (M). That evening, I persuaded my father, that he, a lifelong sympathizer, should stop paying the party tithe. He agreed. A man in our neighbourhood, who would come around every week with the latest edition of Peoples Democracy, came, and we spent a few minutes in tense silence. He knew that I had been in the demonstration that tried to go to the Chinese Embassy. I think we both thought of each other as betrayers. He never came to collect the tithe, or to give the party paper again. In the last twenty years, the memory of Tiananmen Square has always remained with me, and haunted me, and I still cannot forget that 'they were singing the Internationale'. The students, and those who killed them, would have all sang the Internationale. Whenever i have met Chinese people of my generation since then, after a while, I invariably ask them, where were you on the 4th of June on 1989. And then the conversation takes a certain turn. Sometimes, there are silences that speak much more eloquently than words can. As for me, I have never stopped calling myself a communist. I think that to do so, would be to perversely betray the young people of my generation in China, many of whom believed that Communism could also mean freedom, not only the absence of liberty. Since then, I have grown to understand the peculiar perversity of the state that Mao Zedong and his successors presided over, but I have never let that sway me that my way of remembering Tiananmen will be to continue to whistle the Internationale when the chips are down. The chips were down, often. Where we are born, where we live and grow up, where we come of age - all these are accidents in the end. I could just as easily have been twenty one years old in Beijing on the 4th of June in 1989. And if I had been twenty one years old in Beijing on the 4th of June in 1989, I know where I would have been, singing the Internationale. I have always had an abhorrence of martyrdom, and out of the love an affection I have for those who were cut down that day, I hope I would have survived. Someday, I hope that those who survived Tiananmen that day will be able to settle accounts, peacefully, but unforgivingly, with those who ordered the massacre, and with their successors, who still hold power in China today. And I know that I will never forget Tiananmen. Someday, I hope I stand on its paved stones, and someday I hope I can whistle the Internationale there, not in time with the brass band of the Chinese Communist Party, but in time with the whistling echoes of the ghosts of my Chinese generation. Shuddhabrata Sengupta The Sarai Programme at CSDS Raqs Media Collective shuddha at sarai.net www.sarai.net www.raqsmediacollective.net From rakesh.rnbdj at gmail.com Thu Jun 4 20:07:01 2009 From: rakesh.rnbdj at gmail.com (Rakesh Iyer) Date: Thu, 4 Jun 2009 20:07:01 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] The "Sickular" History In-Reply-To: <438921.37167.qm@web57202.mail.re3.yahoo.com> References: <438921.37167.qm@web57202.mail.re3.yahoo.com> Message-ID: Dear Pawan and Venugopalan jee I think without any proof, it's wrong to say people voted for secularism. This way, if people voted BJP to power, then it would mean they voted for communalism! This is nonsense. People vote mainly on livelihood issues. They vote on inflation, terrorism (not only from Islamic and Hindutva terror, but also upper caste terror or backward caste terror which runs supreme in many regions on Dalits, or state terror like Salwa Judum in Chhatisgarh which benefits some and creates problems for some others), roti, kapda, makan and so on. We should not denounce our people directly or indirectly without any proof whether they voted for this or that. As for Pawan jee, well, political parties have converted 'secularism' to 'sickularism', but Indian public by and large is 'secular', not necessarily because they may believe in secularism, but because everybody wants peace to prosper in their life and remain safe and secure. Regards Rakesh From c.anupam at gmail.com Thu Jun 4 20:53:47 2009 From: c.anupam at gmail.com (anupam chakravartty) Date: Thu, 4 Jun 2009 20:53:47 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Urgent Warden Message In-Reply-To: <6b79f1a70906040149o484ffff1j32fa23f2d04fb5cc@mail.gmail.com> References: <6b79f1a70906040149o484ffff1j32fa23f2d04fb5cc@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <341380d00906040823m79f3a905r279650ecb1b2f731@mail.gmail.com> dear pawan, FYI, this is a form of general warning issued since 2001 after 9/11 attacks. i think Pawan you suffer bouts of paranoia on behalf of Americans. here i am NOT trying to defend hafiz sayeed's freedom but please stop creating an unneccesary state of fear in the reader list. can the moderator be slightly more responsible here? -anupam On Thu, Jun 4, 2009 at 2:19 PM, Pawan Durani wrote: > "effect of Hafiz Sayed being set free in Pakistan" > > June 2, 2009 > > > The United States Mission in India wishes to *urgently *remind all U.S. > citizens resident in or traveling to India that there is a high threat from > terrorism throughout India. As terror attacks are a serious and growing > threat, U.S. citizens are urged to always practice good security, including > maintaining a heightened situational awareness and a low profile. > Americans > in India should be vigilant at all times and monitor local news reports and > vary their routes and times in carrying out daily activities. Americans > should consider the level of security present when visiting public places, > including religious sites, or choosing hotels, restaurants, entertainment > and recreation venues. > > For the latest security information, Americans traveling abroad should > regularly monitor the Department's Internet web site at > http://travel.state.gov where the current Worldwide Caution, Travel > Warnings, and Travel Alerts can be found. Up-to-date information on > security > can also be obtained by calling 1-888-407-4747 toll free in the United > States and Canada or, for callers outside the United States and Canada, a > regular toll line at 1-202-501-4444. These numbers are available from 8:00 > a.m. to 8:00 p.m. Eastern Time, Monday through Friday (except U.S. federal > holidays). Americans are also encouraged to read the Country Specific > Information for India, available on the Embassy's website at > http://newdelhi.usembassy.gov, and also at http://travel.state.gov. > > U.S. citizens living or traveling abroad are encouraged to register with > the > nearest U.S. Embassy or Consulate through the State Department's travel > registration web site at https://travelregistration.state.gov/ibrs/ui/ so > that they can obtain updated information on travel and security. Americans > without Internet access may register directly with the nearest U.S. Embassy > or Consulate. By registering, American citizens make it easier for the > Embassy or Consulate to contact them in case of emergency. For additional > information, please refer to "A Safe Trip Abroad" found at > http://travel.state.gov. > > U.S. citizens may contact the American Citizens Services Unit of the > Embassy > or the Consulates General for further information: > > -- The U.S. Embassy in New Delhi is located at Shanti Path, Chanakya Puri > 110021; telephone +91-11-2419-8000; fax +91-11-2419-8407. The Embassy's > Internet home page address is http://newdelhi.usembassy.gov. > > -- The U.S. Consulate General in Mumbai (Bombay) is located at Lincoln > House, 78 Bhulabhai Desai Road, 400026, telephone +91-22-2363-3611; fax > +91-22-2363-0350. The Internet home page address is > http://mumbai.usconsulate.gov. > > -- The U.S. Consulate General in Chennai (Madras) is at 220 Anna Salai, > Gemini Circle, 600006, telephone +91-44-2857-4000; fax +91-44-2811-2027. > The > Internet home page address is http://chennai.usconsulate.gov. > > -- The U.S. Consulate General in Kolkata (Calcutta) is at 5/1 Ho Chi Minh > Sarani, 700071; telephone +91-33-3984-2400; fax +91-33-2282-2335. The > Internet home page address is http://kolkata.usconsulate.gov. > > > -- The U.S. Consulate General in Hyderabad is at Paigah Palace, 1-8-323, > Chiran Fort Lane, Begumpet, Secunderabad 500 003; telephone: +91 (40) > 4033-8300. The Internet home page address is > http://hyderabad.usconsulate.gov. > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > subscribe in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> From pawan.durani at gmail.com Thu Jun 4 21:03:23 2009 From: pawan.durani at gmail.com (Pawan Durani) Date: Thu, 4 Jun 2009 21:03:23 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Urgent Warden Message In-Reply-To: <341380d00906040823m79f3a905r279650ecb1b2f731@mail.gmail.com> References: <6b79f1a70906040149o484ffff1j32fa23f2d04fb5cc@mail.gmail.com> <341380d00906040823m79f3a905r279650ecb1b2f731@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <6b79f1a70906040833l1f627773q3b40033ffa0c712d@mail.gmail.com> Dear Anupam , Thank you for pointing out that i suffer from Paranoia. It was quite a polite way to argue. Going forward , there would be many citizens of US who may be subscribed to reader list and may be interested in knowing what their Govt advises them. After 26/11 , we live in a victory syndrome of having got over the attack on Mumbai , however I am sure US intelligence would have given their Govt much valuable feedback as well and we must not neglect how a foreign nation advises its citizen about travelling to our country. Wishes Pawan On Thu, Jun 4, 2009 at 8:53 PM, anupam chakravartty wrote: > dear pawan, > > FYI, this is a form of general warning issued since 2001 after 9/11 > attacks. > i think Pawan you suffer bouts of paranoia on behalf of Americans. here i > am > NOT trying to defend hafiz sayeed's freedom but please stop creating an > unneccesary state of fear in the reader list. > > can the moderator be slightly more responsible here? > > -anupam > > On Thu, Jun 4, 2009 at 2:19 PM, Pawan Durani > wrote: > > > "effect of Hafiz Sayed being set free in Pakistan" > > > > June 2, 2009 > > > > > > The United States Mission in India wishes to *urgently *remind all U.S. > > citizens resident in or traveling to India that there is a high threat > from > > terrorism throughout India. As terror attacks are a serious and growing > > threat, U.S. citizens are urged to always practice good security, > including > > maintaining a heightened situational awareness and a low profile. > > Americans > > in India should be vigilant at all times and monitor local news reports > and > > vary their routes and times in carrying out daily activities. Americans > > should consider the level of security present when visiting public > places, > > including religious sites, or choosing hotels, restaurants, entertainment > > and recreation venues. > > > > For the latest security information, Americans traveling abroad should > > regularly monitor the Department's Internet web site at > > http://travel.state.gov where the current Worldwide Caution, Travel > > Warnings, and Travel Alerts can be found. Up-to-date information on > > security > > can also be obtained by calling 1-888-407-4747 toll free in the United > > States and Canada or, for callers outside the United States and Canada, a > > regular toll line at 1-202-501-4444. These numbers are available from > 8:00 > > a.m. to 8:00 p.m. Eastern Time, Monday through Friday (except U.S. > federal > > holidays). Americans are also encouraged to read the Country Specific > > Information for India, available on the Embassy's website at > > http://newdelhi.usembassy.gov, and also at http://travel.state.gov. > > > > U.S. citizens living or traveling abroad are encouraged to register with > > the > > nearest U.S. Embassy or Consulate through the State Department's travel > > registration web site at https://travelregistration.state.gov/ibrs/ui/so > > that they can obtain updated information on travel and security. > Americans > > without Internet access may register directly with the nearest U.S. > Embassy > > or Consulate. By registering, American citizens make it easier for the > > Embassy or Consulate to contact them in case of emergency. For additional > > information, please refer to "A Safe Trip Abroad" found at > > http://travel.state.gov. > > > > U.S. citizens may contact the American Citizens Services Unit of the > > Embassy > > or the Consulates General for further information: > > > > -- The U.S. Embassy in New Delhi is located at Shanti Path, Chanakya Puri > > 110021; telephone +91-11-2419-8000; fax +91-11-2419-8407. The Embassy's > > Internet home page address is http://newdelhi.usembassy.gov. > > > > -- The U.S. Consulate General in Mumbai (Bombay) is located at Lincoln > > House, 78 Bhulabhai Desai Road, 400026, telephone +91-22-2363-3611; fax > > +91-22-2363-0350. The Internet home page address is > > http://mumbai.usconsulate.gov. > > > > -- The U.S. Consulate General in Chennai (Madras) is at 220 Anna Salai, > > Gemini Circle, 600006, telephone +91-44-2857-4000; fax +91-44-2811-2027. > > The > > Internet home page address is http://chennai.usconsulate.gov. > > > > -- The U.S. Consulate General in Kolkata (Calcutta) is at 5/1 Ho Chi Minh > > Sarani, 700071; telephone +91-33-3984-2400; fax +91-33-2282-2335. The > > Internet home page address is http://kolkata.usconsulate.gov. > > > > > > -- The U.S. Consulate General in Hyderabad is at Paigah Palace, 1-8-323, > > Chiran Fort Lane, Begumpet, Secunderabad 500 003; telephone: +91 (40) > > 4033-8300. The Internet home page address is > > http://hyderabad.usconsulate.gov. > > _________________________________________ > > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > > Critiques & Collaborations > > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > > subscribe in the subject header. > > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > subscribe in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> From c.anupam at gmail.com Thu Jun 4 21:11:17 2009 From: c.anupam at gmail.com (anupam chakravartty) Date: Thu, 4 Jun 2009 21:11:17 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Urgent Warden Message In-Reply-To: <6b79f1a70906040833l1f627773q3b40033ffa0c712d@mail.gmail.com> References: <6b79f1a70906040149o484ffff1j32fa23f2d04fb5cc@mail.gmail.com> <341380d00906040823m79f3a905r279650ecb1b2f731@mail.gmail.com> <6b79f1a70906040833l1f627773q3b40033ffa0c712d@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <341380d00906040841h4756aa5p68c48631e78f1f25@mail.gmail.com> Dear Pawan, You might be living in a victory syndrome or loosing streak, for me it was an loss of so many lives. a life lost in such a calamity is more important that any country. but that doesnt mean you unneccesarily start posting american embassy communiques here...that too which are stale. these warnings create panic among most sane and normal peace loving person. you end up propagating the similar ends that these terrorists have been trying to achieve -- create fear. anupam On Thu, Jun 4, 2009 at 9:03 PM, Pawan Durani wrote: > Dear Anupam , > > Thank you for pointing out that i suffer from Paranoia. It was quite a > polite way to argue. > > Going forward , there would be many citizens of US who may be subscribed to > reader list and may be interested in knowing what their Govt advises them. > > After 26/11 , we live in a victory syndrome of having got over the attack > on Mumbai , however I am sure US intelligence would have given their Govt > much valuable feedback as well and we must not neglect how a foreign nation > advises its citizen about travelling to our country. > > Wishes > > Pawan > > > > > On Thu, Jun 4, 2009 at 8:53 PM, anupam chakravartty wrote: > >> dear pawan, >> >> FYI, this is a form of general warning issued since 2001 after 9/11 >> attacks. >> i think Pawan you suffer bouts of paranoia on behalf of Americans. here i >> am >> NOT trying to defend hafiz sayeed's freedom but please stop creating an >> unneccesary state of fear in the reader list. >> >> can the moderator be slightly more responsible here? >> >> -anupam >> >> On Thu, Jun 4, 2009 at 2:19 PM, Pawan Durani >> wrote: >> >> > "effect of Hafiz Sayed being set free in Pakistan" >> > >> > June 2, 2009 >> > >> > >> > The United States Mission in India wishes to *urgently *remind all U.S. >> > citizens resident in or traveling to India that there is a high threat >> from >> > terrorism throughout India. As terror attacks are a serious and growing >> > threat, U.S. citizens are urged to always practice good security, >> including >> > maintaining a heightened situational awareness and a low profile. >> > Americans >> > in India should be vigilant at all times and monitor local news reports >> and >> > vary their routes and times in carrying out daily activities. Americans >> > should consider the level of security present when visiting public >> places, >> > including religious sites, or choosing hotels, restaurants, >> entertainment >> > and recreation venues. >> > >> > For the latest security information, Americans traveling abroad should >> > regularly monitor the Department's Internet web site at >> > http://travel.state.gov where the current Worldwide Caution, Travel >> > Warnings, and Travel Alerts can be found. Up-to-date information on >> > security >> > can also be obtained by calling 1-888-407-4747 toll free in the United >> > States and Canada or, for callers outside the United States and Canada, >> a >> > regular toll line at 1-202-501-4444. These numbers are available from >> 8:00 >> > a.m. to 8:00 p.m. Eastern Time, Monday through Friday (except U.S. >> federal >> > holidays). Americans are also encouraged to read the Country Specific >> > Information for India, available on the Embassy's website at >> > http://newdelhi.usembassy.gov, and also at http://travel.state.gov. >> > >> > U.S. citizens living or traveling abroad are encouraged to register with >> > the >> > nearest U.S. Embassy or Consulate through the State Department's travel >> > registration web site at https://travelregistration.state.gov/ibrs/ui/so >> > that they can obtain updated information on travel and security. >> Americans >> > without Internet access may register directly with the nearest U.S. >> Embassy >> > or Consulate. By registering, American citizens make it easier for the >> > Embassy or Consulate to contact them in case of emergency. For >> additional >> > information, please refer to "A Safe Trip Abroad" found at >> > http://travel.state.gov. >> > >> > U.S. citizens may contact the American Citizens Services Unit of the >> > Embassy >> > or the Consulates General for further information: >> > >> > -- The U.S. Embassy in New Delhi is located at Shanti Path, Chanakya >> Puri >> > 110021; telephone +91-11-2419-8000; fax +91-11-2419-8407. The Embassy's >> > Internet home page address is http://newdelhi.usembassy.gov. >> > >> > -- The U.S. Consulate General in Mumbai (Bombay) is located at Lincoln >> > House, 78 Bhulabhai Desai Road, 400026, telephone +91-22-2363-3611; fax >> > +91-22-2363-0350. The Internet home page address is >> > http://mumbai.usconsulate.gov. >> > >> > -- The U.S. Consulate General in Chennai (Madras) is at 220 Anna Salai, >> > Gemini Circle, 600006, telephone +91-44-2857-4000; fax +91-44-2811-2027. >> > The >> > Internet home page address is http://chennai.usconsulate.gov. >> > >> > -- The U.S. Consulate General in Kolkata (Calcutta) is at 5/1 Ho Chi >> Minh >> > Sarani, 700071; telephone +91-33-3984-2400; fax +91-33-2282-2335. The >> > Internet home page address is http://kolkata.usconsulate.gov. >> > >> > >> > -- The U.S. Consulate General in Hyderabad is at Paigah Palace, 1-8-323, >> > Chiran Fort Lane, Begumpet, Secunderabad 500 003; telephone: +91 (40) >> > 4033-8300. The Internet home page address is >> > http://hyderabad.usconsulate.gov. >> > _________________________________________ >> > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. >> > Critiques & Collaborations >> > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with >> > subscribe in the subject header. >> > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list >> > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> >> _________________________________________ >> reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. >> Critiques & Collaborations >> To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with >> subscribe in the subject header. >> To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list >> List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> > > > From c.anupam at gmail.com Thu Jun 4 21:24:39 2009 From: c.anupam at gmail.com (anupam chakravartty) Date: Thu, 4 Jun 2009 21:24:39 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Goodbye, GM In-Reply-To: <549b14850906040221g55463875l1856f3aeac7ea075@mail.gmail.com> References: <549b14850906040221g55463875l1856f3aeac7ea075@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <341380d00906040854s2818df17mbc6373260b00b9a1@mail.gmail.com> Goodbye, GM *By Michael Moore* 03 June, 2009 *MichaelMoore.com* I write this on the morning of the end of the once-mighty General Motors. By high noon, the President of the United States will have made it official: General Motors, as we know it, has been totaled. As I sit here in GM's birthplace, Flint, Michigan, I am surrounded by friends and family who are filled with anxiety about what will happen to them and to the town. Forty percent of the homes and businesses in the city have been abandoned. Imagine what it would be like if you lived in a city where almost every other house is empty. What would be your state of mind? It is with sad irony that the company which invented "planned obsolescence" -- the decision to build cars that would fall apart after a few years so that the customer would then have to buy a new one -- has now made itself obsolete. It refused to build automobiles that the public wanted, cars that got great gas mileage, were as safe as they could be, and were exceedingly comfortable to drive. Oh -- and that wouldn't start falling apart after two years. GM stubbornly fought environmental and safety regulations. Its executives arrogantly ignored the "inferior" Japanese and German cars, cars which would become the gold standard for automobile buyers. And it was hell-bent on punishing its unionized workforce, lopping off thousands of workers for no good reason other than to "improve" the short-term bottom line of the corporation. Beginning in the 1980s, when GM was posting record profits, it moved countless jobs to Mexico and elsewhere, thus destroying the lives of tens of thousands of hard-working Americans. The glaring stupidity of this policy was that, when they eliminated the income of so many middle class families, who did they think was going to be able to afford to buy their cars? History will record this blunder in the same way it now writes about the French building the Maginot Line or how the Romans cluelessly poisoned their own water system with lethal lead in its pipes. So here we are at the deathbed of General Motors. The company's body not yet cold, and I find myself filled with -- dare I say it -- joy. It is not the joy of revenge against a corporation that ruined my hometown and brought misery, divorce, alcoholism, homelessness, physical and mental debilitation, and drug addiction to the people I grew up with. Nor do I, obviously, claim any joy in knowing that 21,000 more GM workers will be told that they, too, are without a job. But you and I and the rest of America now own a car company! I know, I know -- who on earth wants to run a car company? Who among us wants $50 billion of our tax dollars thrown down the rat hole of still trying to save GM? Let's be clear about this: The only way to save GM is to kill GM. Saving our precious industrial infrastructure, though, is another matter and must be a top priority. If we allow the shutting down and tearing down of our auto plants, we will sorely wish we still had them when we realize that those factories could have built the alternative energy systems we now desperately need. And when we realize that the best way to transport ourselves is on light rail and bullet trains and cleaner buses, how will we do this if we've allowed our industrial capacity and its skilled workforce to disappear? Thus, as GM is "reorganized" by the federal government and the bankruptcy court, here is the plan I am asking President Obama to implement for the good of the workers, the GM communities, and the nation as a whole. Twenty years ago when I made "Roger & Me," I tried to warn people about what was ahead for General Motors. Had the power structure and the punditocracy listened, maybe much of this could have been avoided. Based on my track record, I request an honest and sincere consideration of the following suggestions: 1. Just as President Roosevelt did after the attack on Pearl Harbor, the President must tell the nation that we are at war and we must immediately convert our auto factories to factories that build mass transit vehicles and alternative energy devices. Within months in Flint in 1942, GM halted all car production and immediately used the assembly lines to build planes, tanks and machine guns. The conversion took no time at all. Everyone pitched in. The fascists were defeated. We are now in a different kind of war -- a war that we have conducted against the ecosystem and has been conducted by our very own corporate leaders. This current war has two fronts. One is headquartered in Detroit. The products built in the factories of GM, Ford and Chrysler are some of the greatest weapons of mass destruction responsible for global warming and the melting of our polar icecaps. The things we call "cars" may have been fun to drive, but they are like a million daggers into the heart of Mother Nature. To continue to build them would only lead to the ruin of our species and much of the planet. The other front in this war is being waged by the oil companies against you and me. They are committed to fleecing us whenever they can, and they have been reckless stewards of the finite amount of oil that is located under the surface of the earth. They know they are sucking it bone dry. And like the lumber tycoons of the early 20th century who didn't give a damn about future generations as they tore down every forest they could get their hands on, these oil barons are not telling the public what they know to be true -- that there are only a few more decades of useable oil on this planet. And as the end days of oil approach us, get ready for some very desperate people willing to kill and be killed just to get their hands on a gallon can of gasoline. President Obama, now that he has taken control of GM, needs to convert the factories to new and needed uses immediately. 2. Don't put another $30 billion into the coffers of GM to build cars. Instead, use that money to keep the current workforce -- and most of those who have been laid off -- employed so that they can build the new modes of 21st century transportation. Let them start the conversion work now. 3. Announce that we will have bullet trains criss-crossing this country in the next five years. Japan is celebrating the 45th anniversary of its first bullet train this year. Now they have dozens of them. Average speed: 165 mph. Average time a train is late: under 30 seconds. They have had these high speed trains for nearly five decades -- and we don't even have one! The fact that the technology already exists for us to go from New York to L.A. in 17 hours by train, and that we haven't used it, is criminal. Let's hire the unemployed to build the new high speed lines all over the country. Chicago to Detroit in less than two hours. Miami to DC in under 7 hours. Denver to Dallas in five and a half. This can be done and done now. 4. Initiate a program to put light rail mass transit lines in all our large and medium-sized cities. Build those trains in the GM factories. And hire local people everywhere to install and run this system. 5. For people in rural areas not served by the train lines, have the GM plants produce energy efficient clean buses. 6. For the time being, have some factories build hybrid or all-electric cars (and batteries). It will take a few years for people to get used to the new ways to transport ourselves, so if we're going to have automobiles, let's have kinder, gentler ones. We can be building these next month (do not believe anyone who tells you it will take years to retool the factories -- that simply isn't true). 7. Transform some of the empty GM factories to facilities that build windmills, solar panels and other means of alternate forms of energy. We need tens of millions of solar panels right now. And there is an eager and skilled workforce who can build them. 8. Provide tax incentives for those who travel by hybrid car or bus or train. Also, credits for those who convert their home to alternative energy. 9. To help pay for this, impose a two-dollar tax on every gallon of gasoline. This will get people to switch to more energy saving cars or to use the new rail lines and rail cars the former autoworkers have built for them. Well, that's a start. Please, please, please don't save GM so that a smaller version of it will simply do nothing more than build Chevys or Cadillacs. This is not a long-term solution. Don't throw bad money into a company whose tailpipe is malfunctioning, causing a strange odor to fill the car. 100 years ago this year, the founders of General Motors convinced the world to give up their horses and saddles and buggy whips to try a new form of transportation. Now it is time for us to say goodbye to the internal combustion engine. It seemed to serve us well for so long. We enjoyed the car hops at the A&W. We made out in the front -- and the back -- seat. We watched movies on large outdoor screens, went to the races at NASCAR tracks across the country, and saw the Pacific Ocean for the first time through the window down Hwy. 1. And now it's over. It's a new day and a new century. The President -- and the UAW -- must seize this moment and create a big batch of lemonade from this very sour and sad lemon. Yesterday, the last surviving person from the Titanic disaster passed away. She escaped certain death that night and went on to live another 97 years. So can we survive our own Titanic in all the Flint Michigans of this country. 60% of GM is ours. I think we can do a better job. Yours, Michael Moore MMFlint at aol.com From kmvenuannur at gmail.com Thu Jun 4 21:41:24 2009 From: kmvenuannur at gmail.com (Venugopalan K M) Date: Thu, 4 Jun 2009 21:41:24 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] The "Sickular" History In-Reply-To: References: <438921.37167.qm@web57202.mail.re3.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <1f9180970906040911t4f9bb715s828c4feeccdda343@mail.gmail.com> Dear Rakesh, While I have no quarrel with the content of your post, I wish to clarify that the statement I made there was just contextual and it did not intend to dismiss the basic concerns of people like roti, kapada our makaan as non existent. I absolutely agree that there needs proof about peoples' verdict in favour of secularism, before any one making such assertion. But again, if we don't care to read the writing on the wall, where else shall we go for proof? BJP has got a rude shock everywhere, even in Gujarat, where their vote share has actually decreased by 0.9%. This, read with the fact that even against the probable expressions of anti-incumbency every where, people by and large thwarted the communal agenda of the BJP, Shiva Sena and the like, one definitely has the proof! On the contrary, If people had brought back the BJP and the NDA to power everywhere, I would still not take it as a proof of people being communal; instead, I would say that people had been misled by the false promises and propaganda of the communal BJP and their allies! Gujarat had returned to the BJP rule even after the complicity of the state administration in the violent killings of Muslims in the aftermath of Godhra was clearly indicated; still, I believe that lot momentum has since then been gained by the secular forces, thanks to the consolidation of non-BJP actors.To a certain extent, this is reflected in the Gujarat peoples' latest verdict too. Proof on either side may be technically correct or incorrect; I am concerned less with the technical correctness than with the political correctness. Further, I would like to go even beyond such concerns of political correctness, if I be confronted with a malady of such an enormous propensity- like talking and acting in terms of hate and exclusivity being even fashionable among certain sections of the privileged and the elites! It might not be politically correct for me to welcome the return of the UPA rather than sort of a Left dominated set up; but still I am able to appreciate and empathize with the people who gave the Congress led UPA a comfortable majority in preference to propagators of communalism on the one hand and to those riding on the waves of identity politics or those who preach socialism and practice a kind of capitalist patriarchy or male chauvinist regionalism / parochialism, on the other. Thanks and regards, Venu. On Thu, Jun 4, 2009 at 8:07 PM, Rakesh Iyer wrote: > Dear Pawan and Venugopalan jee > > I think without any proof, it's wrong to say people voted for secularism. > This way, if people voted BJP to power, then it would mean they voted for > communalism! > > This is nonsense. People vote mainly on livelihood issues. They vote on > inflation, terrorism (not only from Islamic and Hindutva terror, but also > upper caste terror or backward caste terror which runs supreme in many > regions on Dalits, or state terror like Salwa Judum in Chhatisgarh which > benefits some and creates problems for some others), roti, kapda, makan and > so on. > > We should not denounce our people directly or indirectly without any proof > whether they voted for this or that. > > As for Pawan jee, well, political parties have converted 'secularism' to > 'sickularism', but Indian public by and large is 'secular', not necessarily > because they may believe in secularism, but because everybody wants peace to > prosper in their life and remain safe and secure. > > Regards > > Rakesh > -- http://venukm.blogspot.com/ From monica at sarai.net Thu Jun 4 22:32:03 2009 From: monica at sarai.net (Monica Narula) Date: Thu, 4 Jun 2009 22:32:03 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Obama's in Cairo In-Reply-To: <96c0bb200906040732u110e59batd12a4dadf5e30b3d@mail.gmail.com> References: <96c0bb200906040732u110e59batd12a4dadf5e30b3d@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <95DC1C6F-A8FE-4BAA-9895-C60B3A78EC42@sarai.net> Despite the president's soaring speech on partnering with the world, one foreign-policy expert sees globalization splintering the Arab Islamic world — to the tune of an Israeli air strike, Saudi-Iranian proxy wars, more nuclear weapons, and Obama's tough re-election battle in 2012. http://www.esquire.com/the-side/war-room/obama-cairo-speech-060409 Monica Narula Raqs Media Collective Sarai-CSDS www.raqsmediacollective.net www.sarai.net On 04-Jun-09, at 8:02 PM, faiz ullah wrote: > From The US Consulate.. > > > > 009 > > *REMARKS OF PRESIDENT BARACK OBAMA* > > *A New Beginning* > > *Cairo**, Egypt* > > *June 4, 2009* > > I am honored to be in the timeless city of Cairo, and to be hosted > by two > remarkable institutions. For over a thousand years, Al-Azhar has > stood as a > beacon of Islamic learning, and for over a century, Cairo University > has > been a source of Egypt’s advancement. Together, you represent the > harmony > between tradition and progress. I am grateful for your hospitality, > and the > hospitality of the people of Egypt. I am also proud to carry with me > the > goodwill of the American people, and a greeting of peace from Muslim > communities in my country:* assalaamu alaykum*. > > We meet at a time of tension between the United States and > Muslims > around the world – tension rooted in historical forces that go > beyond any > current policy debate. The relationship between Islam and the West > includes > centuries of co-existence and cooperation, but also conflict and > religious > wars. More recently, tension has been fed by colonialism that denied > rights > and opportunities to many Muslims, and a Cold War in which Muslim- > majority > countries were too often treated as proxies without regard to their > own > aspirations. Moreover, the sweeping change brought by modernity and > globalization led many Muslims to view the West as hostile to the > traditions > of Islam. > > Violent extremists have exploited these tensions in a small but > potent minority of Muslims. The attacks of September 11th, 2001 and > the > continued efforts of these extremists to engage in violence against > civilians has led some in my country to view Islam as inevitably > hostile not > only to America and Western countries, but also to human rights. > This has > bred more fear and mistrust. > > So long as our relationship is defined by our differences, we > will > empower those who sow hatred rather than peace, and who promote > conflict > rather than the cooperation that can help all of our people achieve > justice > and prosperity. This cycle of suspicion and discord must end. > > I have come here to seek a new beginning between the United > States > and Muslims around the world; one based upon mutual interest and > mutual > respect; and one based upon the truth that America and Islam are not > exclusive, and need not be in competition. Instead, they overlap, > and share > common principles – principles of justice and progress; tolerance > and the > dignity of all human beings. > > I do so recognizing that change cannot happen overnight. No > single > speech can eradicate years of mistrust, nor can I answer in the time > that I > have all the complex questions that brought us to this point. But I am > convinced that in order to move forward, we must say openly the > things we > hold in our hearts, and that too often are said only behind closed > doors. > There must be a sustained effort to listen to each other; to learn > from each > other; to respect one another; and to seek common ground. As the > Holy Koran > tells us, “Be conscious of God and speak always the truth.” That is > what I > will try to do – to speak the truth as best I can, humbled by the task > before us, and firm in my belief that the interests we share as > human beings > are far more powerful than the forces that drive us apart. > > Part of this conviction is rooted in my own experience. I am a > Christian, but my father came from a Kenyan family that includes > generations > of Muslims. As a boy, I spent several years in Indonesia and heard > the call > of the* azaan* at the break of dawn and the fall of dusk. As a young > man, I > worked in Chicago communities where many found dignity and peace in > their > Muslim faith. > > As a student of history, I also know civilization’s debt to > Islam. > It was Islam – at places like Al-Azhar University – that carried the > light > of learning through so many centuries, paving the way for Europe’s > Renaissance and Enlightenment. It was innovation in Muslim > communities that > developed the order of algebra; our magnetic compass and tools of > navigation; our mastery of pens and printing; our understanding of how > disease spreads and how it can be healed. Islamic culture has given us > majestic arches and soaring spires; timeless poetry and cherished > music; > elegant calligraphy and places of peaceful contemplation. And > throughout > history, Islam has demonstrated through words and deeds the > possibilities of > religious tolerance and racial equality. > > I know, too, that Islam has always been a part of America’s > story. > The first nation to recognize my country was Morocco. In signing the > Treaty > of Tripoli in 1796, our second President John Adams wrote, "The United > States has in itself no character of enmity against the laws, > religion or > tranquility of Muslims." And since our founding, American Muslims have > enriched the United States. They have fought in our wars, served in > government, stood for civil rights, started businesses, taught at our > Universities, excelled in our sports arenas, won Nobel Prizes, built > our > tallest building, and lit the Olympic Torch. And when the first > Muslim-American was recently elected to Congress, he took the oath > to defend > our Constitution using the same Holy Koran that one of our Founding > Fathers > – Thomas Jefferson – kept in his personal library. > > So I have known Islam on three continents before coming to the > region where it was first revealed. That experience guides my > conviction > that partnership between America and Islam must be based on what > Islam is, > not what it isn’t. And I consider it part of my responsibility as > President > of the United States to fight against negative stereotypes of Islam > wherever > they appear. > > But that same principle must apply to Muslim perceptions of > America. > Just as Muslims do not fit a crude stereotype, America is not the > crude > stereotype of a self-interested empire. The United States has been > one of > the greatest sources of progress that the world has ever known. We > were born > out of revolution against an empire. We were founded upon the ideal > that all > are created equal, and we have shed blood and struggled for > centuries to > give meaning to those words – within our borders, and around the > world. We > are shaped by every culture, drawn from every end of the Earth, and > dedicated to a simple concept:* E pluribus unum*: "Out of many, one." > > Much has been made of the fact that an African-American with > the > name Barack Hussein Obama could be elected President. But my > personal story > is not so unique. The dream of opportunity for all people has not > come true > for everyone in America, but its promise exists for all who come to > our > shores – that includes nearly seven million American Muslims in our > country > today who enjoy incomes and education that are higher than average. > > Moreover, freedom in America is indivisible from the freedom to > practice one’s religion. That is why there is a mosque in every > state of our > union, and over 1,200 mosques within our borders. That is why the U.S. > government has gone to court to protect the right of women and girls > to wear > the* hijab,* and to punish those who would deny it. > > So let there be no doubt: Islam is a part of America. And I > believe > that America holds within her the truth that regardless of race, > religion, > or station in life, all of us share common aspirations – to live in > peace > and security; to get an education and to work with dignity; to love > our > families, our communities, and our God. These things we share. This > is the > hope of all humanity. > > Of course, recognizing our common humanity is only the > beginning of > our task. Words alone cannot meet the needs of our people. These > needs will > be met only if we act boldly in the years ahead; and if we > understand that > the challenges we face are shared, and our failure to meet them will > hurt us > all. > > For we have learned from recent experience that when a > financial > system weakens in one country, prosperity is hurt everywhere. When a > new flu > infects one human being, all are at risk. When one nation pursues a > nuclear > weapon, the risk of nuclear attack rises for all nations. When violent > extremists operate in one stretch of mountains, people are > endangered across > an ocean. And when innocents in Bosnia and Darfur are slaughtered, > that is a > stain on our collective conscience. That is what it means to share > this > world in the 21st century. That is the responsibility we have to one > another > as human beings. > > This is a difficult responsibility to embrace. For human > history has > often been a record of nations and tribes subjugating one another to > serve > their own interests. Yet in this new age, such attitudes are self- > defeating. > Given our interdependence, any world order that elevates one nation > or group > of people over another will inevitably fail. So whatever we think of > the > past, we must not be prisoners of it. Our problems must be dealt with > through partnership; progress must be shared. > > That does not mean we should ignore sources of tension. > Indeed, it > suggests the opposite: we must face these tensions squarely. And so > in that > spirit, let me speak as clearly and plainly as I can about some > specific > issues that I believe we must finally confront together. > > The first issue that we have to confront is violent extremism > in all > of its forms. > > In Ankara, I made clear that America is not – and never will > be – at > war with Islam. We will, however, relentlessly confront violent > extremists > who pose a grave threat to our security. Because we reject the same > thing > that people of all faiths reject: the killing of innocent men, > women, and > children. And it is my first duty as President to protect the American > people. > > The situation in Afghanistan demonstrates America’s goals, > and our > need to work together. Over seven years ago, the United States > pursued al > Qaeda and the Taliban with broad international support. We did not > go by > choice, we went because of necessity. I am aware that some question or > justify the events of 9/11. But let us be clear: al Qaeda killed > nearly > 3,000 people on that day. The victims were innocent men, women and > children > from America and many other nations who had done nothing to harm > anybody. > And yet Al Qaeda chose to ruthlessly murder these people, claimed > credit for > the attack, and even now states their determination to kill on a > massive > scale. They have affiliates in many countries and are trying to > expand their > reach. These are not opinions to be debated; these are facts to be > dealt > with. > > Make no mistake: we do not want to keep our troops in > Afghanistan. > We seek no military bases there. It is agonizing for America to lose > our > young men and women. It is costly and politically difficult to > continue this > conflict. We would gladly bring every single one of our troops home > if we > could be confident that there were not violent extremists in > Afghanistan and > Pakistan determined to kill as many Americans as they possibly can. > But that > is not yet the case. > > That’s why we’re partnering with a coalition of forty-six > countries. > And despite the costs involved, America’s commitment will not weaken. > Indeed, none of us should tolerate these extremists. They have > killed in > many countries. They have killed people of different faiths – more > than any > other, they have killed Muslims. Their actions are irreconcilable > with the > rights of human beings, the progress of nations, and with Islam. The > Holy > Koran teaches that whoever kills an innocent, it is as if he has > killed all > mankind; and whoever saves a person, it is as if he has saved all > mankind. > The enduring faith of over a billion people is so much bigger than the > narrow hatred of a few. Islam is not part of the problem in combating > violent extremism – it is an important part of promoting peace. > > We also know that military power alone is not going to solve > the > problems in Afghanistan and Pakistan. That is why we plan to invest > $1.5 > billion each year over the next five years to partner with > Pakistanis to > build schools and hospitals, roads and businesses, and hundreds of > millions > to help those who have been displaced. And that is why we are > providing more > than $2.8 billion to help Afghans develop their economy and deliver > services > that people depend upon. > > Let me also address the issue of Iraq. Unlike Afghanistan, > Iraq was > a war of choice that provoked strong differences in my country and > around > the world. Although I believe that the Iraqi people are ultimately > better > off without the tyranny of Saddam Hussein, I also believe that > events in > Iraq have reminded America of the need to use diplomacy and build > international consensus to resolve our problems whenever possible. > Indeed, > we can recall the words of Thomas Jefferson, who said: “I hope that > our > wisdom will grow with our power, and teach us that the less we use > our power > the greater it will be.” > > Today, America has a dual responsibility: to help Iraq forge a > better future – and to leave Iraq to Iraqis. I have made it clear to > the > Iraqi people that we pursue no bases, and no claim on their > territory or > resources. Iraq’s sovereignty is its own. That is why I ordered the > removal > of our combat brigades by next August. That is why we will honor our > agreement with Iraq’s democratically-elected government to remove > combat > troops from Iraqi cities by July, and to remove all our troops from > Iraq by > 2012. We will help Iraq train its Security Forces and develop its > economy. > But we will support a secure and united Iraq as a partner, and never > as a > patron. > > And finally, just as America can never tolerate violence by > extremists, we must never alter our principles. 9/11 was an enormous > trauma > to our country. The fear and anger that it provoked was > understandable, but > in some cases, it led us to act contrary to our ideals. We are taking > concrete actions to change course. I have unequivocally prohibited > the use > of torture by the United States, and I have ordered the prison at > Guantanamo > Bay closed by early next year. > > So America will defend itself respectful of the sovereignty of > nations and the rule of law. And we will do so in partnership with > Muslim > communities which are also threatened. The sooner the extremists are > isolated and unwelcome in Muslim communities, the sooner we will all > be > safer. > > The second major source of tension that we need to discuss is > the > situation between Israelis, Palestinians and the Arab world. > > America’s strong bonds with Israel are well known. This bond is > unbreakable. It is based upon cultural and historical ties, and the > recognition that the aspiration for a Jewish homeland is rooted in a > tragic > history that cannot be denied. > > Around the world, the Jewish people were persecuted for > centuries, > and anti-Semitism in Europe culminated in an unprecedented Holocaust. > Tomorrow, I will visit Buchenwald, which was part of a network of > camps > where Jews were enslaved, tortured, shot and gassed to death by the > Third > Reich. Six million Jews were killed – more than the entire Jewish > population > of Israel today. Denying that fact is baseless, ignorant, and hateful. > Threatening Israel with destruction – or repeating vile stereotypes > about > Jews – is deeply wrong, and only serves to evoke in the minds of > Israelis > this most painful of memories while preventing the peace that the > people of > this region deserve. > > On the other hand, it is also undeniable that the Palestinian > people > – Muslims and Christians – have suffered in pursuit of a homeland. > For more > than sixty years they have endured the pain of dislocation. Many > wait in > refugee camps in the West Bank, Gaza, and neighboring lands for a > life of > peace and security that they have never been able to lead. They > endure the > daily humiliations – large and small – that come with occupation. So > let > there be no doubt: the situation for the Palestinian people is > intolerable. > America will not turn our backs on the legitimate Palestinian > aspiration for > dignity, opportunity, and a state of their own. > > For decades, there has been a stalemate: two peoples with > legitimate > aspirations, each with a painful history that makes compromise > elusive. It > is easy to point fingers – for Palestinians to point to the > displacement > brought by Israel’s founding, and for Israelis to point to the > constant > hostility and attacks throughout its history from within its borders > as well > as beyond. But if we see this conflict only from one side or the > other, then > we will be blind to the truth: the only resolution is for the > aspirations of > both sides to be met through two states, where Israelis and > Palestinians > each live in peace and security. > > That is in Israel’s interest, Palestine’s interest, America’s > interest, and the world’s interest. That is why I intend to personally > pursue this outcome with all the patience that the task requires. The > obligations that the parties have agreed to under the Road Map are > clear. > For peace to come, it is time for them – and all of us – to live up > to our > responsibilities. > > Palestinians must abandon violence. Resistance through > violence and > killing is wrong and does not succeed. For centuries, black people in > America suffered the lash of the whip as slaves and the humiliation of > segregation. But it was not violence that won full and equal rights. > It was > a peaceful and determined insistence upon the ideals at the center of > America’s founding. This same story can be told by people from South > Africa > to South Asia; from Eastern Europe to Indonesia. It’s a story with a > simple > truth: that violence is a dead end. It is a sign of neither courage > nor > power to shoot rockets at sleeping children, or to blow up old women > on a > bus. That is not how moral authority is claimed; that is how it is > surrendered. > > Now is the time for Palestinians to focus on what they can > build. > The Palestinian Authority must develop its capacity to govern, with > institutions that serve the needs of its people. Hamas does have > support > among some Palestinians, but they also have responsibilities. To > play a role > in fulfilling Palestinian aspirations, and to unify the Palestinian > people, > Hamas must put an end to violence, recognize past agreements, and > recognize > Israel’s right to exist. > > At the same time, Israelis must acknowledge that just as > Israel’s > right to exist cannot be denied, neither can Palestine’s. The United > States > does not accept the legitimacy of continued Israeli settlements. This > construction violates previous agreements and undermines efforts to > achieve > peace. It is time for these settlements to stop. > > Israel must also live up to its obligations to ensure that > Palestinians can live, and work, and develop their society. And just > as it > devastates Palestinian families, the continuing humanitarian crisis > in Gaza > does not serve Israel’s security; neither does the continuing lack of > opportunity in the West Bank. Progress in the daily lives of the > Palestinian > people must be part of a road to peace, and Israel must take > concrete steps > to enable such progress. > > Finally, the Arab States must recognize that the Arab Peace > Initiative was an important beginning, but not the end of their > responsibilities. The Arab-Israeli conflict should no longer be used > to > distract the people of Arab nations from other problems. Instead, it > must be > a cause for action to help the Palestinian people develop the > institutions > that will sustain their state; to recognize Israel’s legitimacy; and > to > choose progress over a self-defeating focus on the past. > > America will align our policies with those who pursue peace, > and say > in public what we say in private to Israelis and Palestinians and > Arabs. We > cannot impose peace. But privately, many Muslims recognize that > Israel will > not go away. Likewise, many Israelis recognize the need for a > Palestinian > state. It is time for us to act on what everyone knows to be true. > > Too many tears have flowed. Too much blood has been shed. All > of us > have a responsibility to work for the day when the mothers of > Israelis and > Palestinians can see their children grow up without fear; when the > Holy Land > of three great faiths is the place of peace that God intended it to > be; when > Jerusalem is a secure and lasting home for Jews and Christians and > Muslims, > and a place for all of the children of Abraham to mingle peacefully > together > as in the story of Isra, when Moses, Jesus, and Mohammed (peace be > upon > them) joined in prayer. > > The third source of tension is our shared interest in the > rights and > responsibilities of nations on nuclear weapons. > > This issue has been a source of tension between the United > States > and the Islamic Republic of Iran. For many years, Iran has defined > itself in > part by its opposition to my country, and there is indeed a tumultuous > history between us. In the middle of the Cold War, the United States > played > a role in the overthrow of a democratically-elected Iranian > government. > Since the Islamic Revolution, Iran has played a role in acts of > hostage-taking and violence against U.S. troops and civilians. This > history > is well known. Rather than remain trapped in the past, I have made > it clear > to Iran’s leaders and people that my country is prepared to move > forward. > The question, now, is not what Iran is against, but rather what > future it > wants to build. > > It will be hard to overcome decades of mistrust, but we will > proceed > with courage, rectitude and resolve. There will be many issues to > discuss > between our two countries, and we are willing to move forward without > preconditions on the basis of mutual respect. But it is clear to all > concerned that when it comes to nuclear weapons, we have reached a > decisive > point. This is not simply about America’s interests. It is about > preventing > a nuclear arms race in the Middle East that could lead this region > and the > world down a hugely dangerous path. > > I understand those who protest that some countries have > weapons that > others do not. No single nation should pick and choose which nations > hold > nuclear weapons. That is why I strongly reaffirmed America’s > commitment to > seek a world in which* no* nations hold nuclear weapons. And any > nation – > including Iran – should have the right to access peaceful nuclear > power if > it complies with its responsibilities under the nuclear Non- > Proliferation > Treaty. That commitment is at the core of the Treaty, and it must be > kept > for all who fully abide by it. And I am hopeful that all countries > in the > region can share in this goal. > > The fourth issue that I will address is democracy. > > I know there has been controversy about the promotion of > democracy > in recent years, and much of this controversy is connected to the > war in > Iraq. So let me be clear: no system of government can or should be > imposed > upon one nation by any other. > > That does not lessen my commitment, however, to governments > that > reflect the will of the people. Each nation gives life to this > principle in > its own way, grounded in the traditions of its own people. America > does not > presume to know what is best for everyone, just as we would not > presume to > pick the outcome of a peaceful election. But I do have an unyielding > belief > that all people yearn for certain things: the ability to speak your > mind and > have a say in how you are governed; confidence in the rule of law > and the > equal administration of justice; government that is transparent and > doesn’t > steal from the people; the freedom to live as you choose. Those are > not just > American ideas, they are human rights, and that is why we will > support them > everywhere. > > There is no straight line to realize this promise. But this > much is > clear: governments that protect these rights are ultimately more > stable, > successful and secure. Suppressing ideas never succeeds in making > them go > away. America respects the right of all peaceful and law-abiding > voices to > be heard around the world, even if we disagree with them. And we will > welcome all elected, peaceful governments – provided they govern with > respect for all their people. > > This last point is important because there are some who > advocate for > democracy only when they are out of power; once in power, they are > ruthless > in suppressing the rights of others. No matter where it takes hold, > government of the people and by the people sets a single standard > for all > who hold power: you must maintain your power through consent, not > coercion; > you must respect the rights of minorities, and participate with a > spirit of > tolerance and compromise; you must place the interests of your > people and > the legitimate workings of the political process above your party. > Without > these ingredients, elections alone do not make true democracy. > > The fifth issue that we must address together is religious > freedom. > > Islam has a proud tradition of tolerance. We see it in the > history > of Andalusia and Cordoba during the Inquisition. I saw it firsthand > as a > child in Indonesia, where devout Christians worshiped freely in an > overwhelmingly Muslim country. That is the spirit we need today. > People in > every country should be free to choose and live their faith based > upon the > persuasion of the mind, heart, and soul. This tolerance is essential > for > religion to thrive, but it is being challenged in many different ways. > > Among some Muslims, there is a disturbing tendency to measure > one’s > own faith by the rejection of another’s. The richness of religious > diversity > must be upheld – whether it is for Maronites in Lebanon or the Copts > in > Egypt. And fault lines must be closed among Muslims as well, as the > divisions between Sunni and Shia have led to tragic violence, > particularly > in Iraq. > > Freedom of religion is central to the ability of peoples to > live > together. We must always examine the ways in which we protect it. For > instance, in the United States, rules on charitable giving have made > it > harder for Muslims to fulfill their religious obligation. That is > why I am > committed to working with American Muslims to ensure that they can > fulfill*zakat > *. > > Likewise, it is important for Western countries to avoid > impeding > Muslim citizens from practicing religion as they see fit – for > instance, by > dictating what clothes a Muslim woman should wear. We cannot disguise > hostility towards any religion behind the pretence of liberalism. > > Indeed, faith should bring us together. That is why we are > forging > service projects in America that bring together Christians, Muslims, > and > Jews. That is why we welcome efforts like Saudi Arabian King > Abdullah’s > Interfaith dialogue and Turkey’s leadership in the Alliance of > Civilizations. Around the world, we can turn dialogue into Interfaith > service, so bridges between peoples lead to action – whether it is > combating > malaria in Africa, or providing relief after a natural disaster. > > The sixth issue that I want to address is women’s rights. > > I know there is debate about this issue. I reject the view of > some > in the West that a woman who chooses to cover her hair is somehow less > equal, but I do believe that a woman who is denied an education is > denied > equality. And it is no coincidence that countries where women are > well-educated are far more likely to be prosperous. > > Now let me be clear: issues of women’s equality are by no means > simply an issue for Islam. In Turkey, Pakistan, Bangladesh and > Indonesia, we > have seen Muslim-majority countries elect a woman to lead. > Meanwhile, the > struggle for women’s equality continues in many aspects of American > life, > and in countries around the world. > > Our daughters can contribute just as much to society as our > sons, > and our common prosperity will be advanced by allowing all humanity > – men > and women – to reach their full potential. I do not believe that > women must > make the same choices as men in order to be equal, and I respect > those women > who choose to live their lives in traditional roles. But it should > be their > choice. That is why the United States will partner with any Muslim- > majority > country to support expanded literacy for girls, and to help young > women > pursue employment through micro-financing that helps people live their > dreams. > > Finally, I want to discuss economic development and > opportunity. > > I know that for many, the face of globalization is > contradictory. > The Internet and television can bring knowledge and information, but > also > offensive sexuality and mindless violence. Trade can bring new > wealth and > opportunities, but also huge disruptions and changing communities. > In all > nations – including my own – this change can bring fear. Fear that > because > of modernity we will lose of control over our economic choices, our > politics, and most importantly our identities – those things we most > cherish > about our communities, our families, our traditions, and our faith. > > But I also know that human progress cannot be denied. There > need not > be contradiction between development and tradition. Countries like > Japan and > South Korea grew their economies while maintaining distinct > cultures. The > same is true for the astonishing progress within Muslim-majority > countries > from Kuala Lumpur to Dubai. In ancient times and in our times, Muslim > communities have been at the forefront of innovation and education. > > This is important because no development strategy can be > based only > upon what comes out of the ground, nor can it be sustained while young > people are out of work. Many Gulf States have enjoyed great wealth > as a > consequence of oil, and some are beginning to focus it on broader > development. But all of us must recognize that education and > innovation will > be the currency of the 21st century, and in too many Muslim > communities > there remains underinvestment in these areas. I am emphasizing such > investments within my country. And while America in the past has > focused on > oil and gas in this part of the world, we now seek a broader > engagement. > > On education, we will expand exchange programs, and increase > scholarships, like the one that brought my father to America, while > encouraging more Americans to study in Muslim communities. And we > will match > promising Muslim students with internships in America; invest in on- > line > learning for teachers and children around the world; and create a > new online > network, so a teenager in Kansas can communicate instantly with a > teenager > in Cairo. > > On economic development, we will create a new corps of business > volunteers to partner with counterparts in Muslim-majority > countries. And I > will host a Summit on Entrepreneurship this year to identify how we > can > deepen ties between business leaders, foundations and social > entrepreneurs > in the United States and Muslim communities around the world. > > On science and technology, we will launch a new fund to support > technological development in Muslim-majority countries, and to help > transfer > ideas to the marketplace so they can create jobs. We will open > centers of > scientific excellence in Africa, the Middle East and Southeast Asia, > and > appoint new Science Envoys to collaborate on programs that develop new > sources of energy, create green jobs, digitize records, clean water, > and > grow new crops. And today I am announcing a new global effort with the > Organization of the Islamic Conference to eradicate polio. And we > will also > expand partnerships with Muslim communities to promote child and > maternal > health. > > All these things must be done in partnership. Americans are > ready to > join with citizens and governments; community organizations, religious > leaders, and businesses in Muslim communities around the world to > help our > people pursue a better life. > > The issues that I have described will not be easy to address. > But we > have a responsibility to join together on behalf of the world we > seek – a > world where extremists no longer threaten our people, and American > troops > have come home; a world where Israelis and Palestinians are each > secure in a > state of their own, and nuclear energy is used for peaceful > purposes; a > world where governments serve their citizens, and the rights of all > God’s > children are respected. Those are mutual interests. That is the > world we > seek. But we can only achieve it together. > > I know there are many – Muslim and non-Muslim – who question > whether > we can forge this new beginning. Some are eager to stoke the flames of > division, and to stand in the way of progress. Some suggest that it > isn’t > worth the effort – that we are fated to disagree, and civilizations > are > doomed to clash. Many more are simply skeptical that real change can > occur. > There is so much fear, so much mistrust. But if we choose to be > bound by the > past, we will never move forward. And I want to particularly say > this to > young people of every faith, in every country – you, more than > anyone, have > the ability to remake this world. > > All of us share this world for but a brief moment in time. The > question is whether we spend that time focused on what pushes us > apart, or > whether we commit ourselves to an effort – a sustained effort – to > find > common ground, to focus on the future we seek for our children, and to > respect the dignity of all human beings. > > It is easier to start wars than to end them. It is easier to > blame > others than to look inward; to see what is different about someone > than to > find the things we share. But we should choose the right path, not > just the > easy path. There is also one rule that lies at the heart of every > religion –that we do unto others as we would have them do unto us. > This truth > transcends nations and peoples – a belief that isn’t new; that isn’t > black > or white or brown; that isn’t Christian, or Muslim or Jew. It’s a > belief > that pulsed in the cradle of civilization, and that still beats in > the heart > of billions. It’s a faith in other people, and it’s what brought me > here > today. > > We have the power to make the world we seek, but only if we > have the > courage to make a new beginning, keeping in mind what has been > written. > > The Holy Koran tells us, “O mankind! We have created you male > and a > female; and we have made you into nations and tribes so that you may > know > one another.” > > The Talmud tells us: “The whole of the Torah is for the > purpose of > promoting peace.” > > The Holy Bible tells us, “Blessed are the peacemakers, for they > shall be called sons of God.” > > The people of the world can live together in peace. We know > that is > God’s vision. Now, that must be our work here on Earth. Thank you. > And may > God’s peace be upon you. > > > -- > faiz > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > subscribe in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> From kauladityaraj at gmail.com Thu Jun 4 23:16:43 2009 From: kauladityaraj at gmail.com (Aditya Raj Kaul) Date: Thu, 4 Jun 2009 23:16:43 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] =?windows-1252?q?=91As_Hindus=2C_We_Were_Expected_T?= =?windows-1252?q?o_Further_The_Cause_With_Our_Stories=92?= In-Reply-To: <7271ec560906040511j2c806f06g4abf9804ce61c031@mail.gmail.com> References: <5c5369880906032322h52bc9d5fwb1a3953cf94096af@mail.gmail.com> <7271ec560906040511j2c806f06g4abf9804ce61c031@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <6353c690906041046m3bcb2110h61d7b53356556017@mail.gmail.com> True. Not that I adore Indian Express. But there are other ways to counter personal ego. She has mocked herself writing in a different publication an outburst. She lacks Journalistic traits. On Thu, Jun 4, 2009 at 5:41 PM, Rajendra Bhat Uppinangadi < rajen786uppinangady at gmail.com> wrote: > Simple is simply frustrated because her imagination and reportage did not > get the award.? > > On Thu, Jun 4, 2009 at 11:52 AM, Sanjay Kak wrote: > > > As an 'insider' account of the workings of India's mainstream press, > > and its professionalism and politics, this is a most valuable account. > > Best > > Sanjay Kak > > > > > > From Tehelka Magazine, Vol 6, Issue 22, Dated Jun 06, 2009 > > CULTURE & SOCIETY > > personal histories > > > > ‘As Hindus, We Were Expected To Further The Cause With Our Stories’ > > > > Simple M Pani > > Is 32. She is a journalist based in New Delhi > > > > Illustration: UZMA MOHSIN > > > > EVERY YEAR, I look starry-eyed at the awardees of the Ramnath Goenka > > Excellence in Journalism Awards and at the stalwarts handing over the > > honours. For grit, hard work, tenacity and honesty to the trade, > > without a care for reward, getting richly rewarded. But this year, I > > couldn’t quell a queasy feeling in my stomach when the virtues of fair > > reporting were spoken about at the event. This has been happening > > since the Amarnath land agitation, when I was reporting for the Jammu > > bureau of a leading national daily. It visited Jammu like a gale, > > sweeping away in gusts the sense of fair play and discrimination of > > many scribes. In our morning meetings, it was assumed as a given that > > being Hindus, we (reporters, photojournalists and other staff) > > supported the agitation for restoration of land to the Amarnath Shrine > > Board. Not only were we expected to support it whole-heartedly but it > > was considered our ‘moral’ duty to further its cause through our > > stories. It was routine for our editor to ask, “So how is the > > agitation faring in xyz place?” and an over-zealous colleague to > > answer passionately, “Excellent. It’s got a tremendous response there” > > and for the editor to rub his chin and say, “But find out what > > challenges they are facing in abc place and how it could be > > strengthened there.” If you were in Jammu, you had to sing paeans to > > the agitators. What smacked of fascism was that no other line of > > thinking, let alone criticism of any sort, was brooked. The few media > > houses that did judge it critically, were a woeful minority. > > > > Two quixotic features of the agitation stood out. First, to refuse to > > recognise the real. To pretend not to see something as stark as an > > economic blockade of the Valley, imposed by the stone-pelting > > agitators by attacking and burning Valley-bound trucks. (I’ve seen > > trucks burnt to rubble by agitators, on the Jammu-Pathankote National > > Highway, but naturally, it wasn’t considered newsworthy in several > > publications because the Jammu media had decided there was no > > blockade. This assumption ruled out any question of trucks being > > attacked.) This kind of dangerous, deductive logic crafting an > > alternative reality was rampant at the time. The storyline would be > > decided in the office and reporters would be asked to select data from > > the field to support it. For instance, to prove the nonexistence of a > > blockade, we would be asked to report that medicines were available in > > plenty in Jammu. If there were a blockade, then Jammu would be equally > > hit, ran the specious logic. In reality, Jammu faced a severe shortage > > of medicines! > > > > Second, to fancy the unreal as real, by drawing parallels between > > itself and the India’s Freedom Movement. Like praising the Emperor’s > > new clothes, which despite any empirical reality, were extolled to the > > skies. Eulogies of “those brave, nationalist, heroes,” the agitators, > > who went about uprooting railway tracks, smashing windows of public > > transport that dared to ply on the roads in defiance of the bandh > > call, and violently attacking trucks entering the state, filled reams > > of newsprint every day. Strangely, the mute common man of Jammu, the > > poor news vendor and hawker on the streets seemed to be more > > discerning than the city’s intelligentsia. They knew that there was > > much more to nationalism than flag-waving xenophobia. That sporting a > > ‘Bhagat Singh moustache’ wasn’t enough to equate one with the martyr. > > They knew that vandalism couldn’t pass for bravery and that they would > > have to repay the loss caused to the state from their pockets; all of > > which the intelligentsia missed, in a misplaced fervour. > > > > Despite the claim that the struggle was solely for the restoration of > > land to the Amarnath Shrine Board, the fact is it did degenerate into > > hate for the ‘other.’ Gujjars’ kullas were burnt in hundreds. The word > > “Kashmir” was knocked off from the Kashmir Square Mall, a Delhi-style > > mall in town, and was rechristened ‘City Square Mall.’ Such sentiments > > are dangerous for any civilised society, more so when the media, the > > supposed watchdog of liberal values, is gung-ho about it. > > > > From Tehelka Magazine, Vol 6, Issue 22, Dated Jun 06, 2009 > > _________________________________________ > > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > > Critiques & Collaborations > > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > > subscribe in the subject header. > > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> > > > > > -- > Rajen. > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > subscribe in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> > From rakesh.rnbdj at gmail.com Thu Jun 4 23:20:38 2009 From: rakesh.rnbdj at gmail.com (Rakesh Iyer) Date: Thu, 4 Jun 2009 23:20:38 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] The "Sickular" History In-Reply-To: <1f9180970906040911t4f9bb715s828c4feeccdda343@mail.gmail.com> References: <438921.37167.qm@web57202.mail.re3.yahoo.com> <1f9180970906040911t4f9bb715s828c4feeccdda343@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: Dear Venugopalan jee With full respect to your views and perceptions, I think making comments like the way you have made in your post, is something akin to what Mr. Bipin usually used to do on this forum. Then also, I had stated that such general comments should not be made particularly since there was no proof of certain things he said. The BJP may have lost vote share in all the states (except Karnataka and one more state, which I don't remember, their vote percentage went down in all the states, compared to 2004 Lok Sabha elections), but the reasons can vary from state to state. Even in Gujarat, the reasons for their vote share going down need not be attributed to secularism without looking at the ground level response. And so from the technical point of view, as I see it myself and you will also accept, it's difficult to say that the BJP lost because people voted for secularism. If that were the case, and if the people feel the BJP is communal, it should not have got a single vote, nor should it have won any seat in India. The problem here is that there is a difference between the conclusions of the election verdict, and the reasons for the verdict. I accept that the conclusion drawn is that the verdict has broken the back of the Left and the Right. But I can't accept that the reason was that the people wanted to throw both of them away, otherwise the BJP would also have suffered the plight of the Left and it's seats would have gone down below 100 or even 50.(Like the Left went down from 61 in 2004 to below 30 this time) Secondly, the assumption you have made is somewhat tricky. As the Congress has won, you congratulate people for having voted on secularism. If the BJP would have won, you say people were misled! This way, the BJP supporter can argue for the vice versa! Whom should I believe? The fact is that the Lok Sabha has 543 constituencies, and each constituency has its own set of issues and ideas based on which people vote. These are determined by numerous factors. People vote based on caste, religion, sex, sometimes money or other gifts obtained, the reputation of the candidates standing from the constituency, the party which they belong to, the ideology they believe in(Marxism/Hindutva/secularism/others), the national issues, local issues like bijli-sadak-pani-roti-kapda-makan-etc., and so on. To say that people were misled because one party won or because people are intelligent because they voted for the other party, I don't think is a fair thing to say about any verdict, whether the Congress wins or the BJP. Most importantly, I believe the Congress is not a secular party. It can change colours from being communal in 1984 to being 'secular' now. As for the others, it's just the Muslim vote they want, if they can get that through riots then they will definitely try to do so. (The Mau riots in UP during Mulayam's rule or the Bhagalpur riots in which RJD men were also involved is a testimony to this. Infact, if I am not wrong, one of the convicted persons in the Bhagalpur riots was contesting on RJD ticket in assembly elections in 2005 from Bhagalpur) The BJP's rise has forced the Congress to remain secular, otherwise it would have been a B-team of Hindutva on the national scale. Of course, their idea of a 'Hindu consolidated vote', also an idea of the RSS, started with Indira Gandhi during her second reign and the riots which took place every year somewhere in some part of the country with police involvement both directly and indirectly, which was a huge shame. As for the Congress majority, the fact is that the Congress has just got 206 seats, not 272 on its own. And the DMK and the Trinamool Congress have already shown that it's a 'coalition' govt, not a one-party govt. Plus of course, the Congress should not forget to thank Raj Thackeray in Maharashtra and Chiranjeevi in Andhra Pradesh (I would not name DMDK here because according to a survey done by CSDS which is also a part of Sarai, the DMDK snatched voters from both the DMK and the AIADMK allliance. How much was it true in the final verdict is something only God knows) The Left unnecessarily stopped some steps which could have helped the nation at large. Infact, the Left's implementation of the NREGA was a huge disaster. And about their politics, the less said the better. It's been a long time since they were associated with a non-electoral mass movement to improve the lives of the downtrodden and the poor. A point probably for the Karats, the Yechurys, the Biman Boses and the Buddhadevs to ponder about. The silver lining in this verdict is that the verdict has given the UPA to actually conduct some important economic reforms (like making a common consumer-based inflation index instead of the wholesale price index we use, refrain from being in sectors like hotels and making beedis or even airlines etc.), major governance, police and judicial reforms (in other words the administrative reforms as stated by the ARC under Veerappa Moily, the current Law Minister), and bring about transparency and accountability in the system, to give relief to the 'aam aadmi'. Otherwise be ready for the people to be misled in the next elections. (In your own words, sir) Regards Rakesh From indersalim at gmail.com Fri Jun 5 00:14:49 2009 From: indersalim at gmail.com (Inder Salim) Date: Fri, 5 Jun 2009 00:14:49 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] India accused of complicity in deaths of Sri Lankan Tamils In-Reply-To: <912699.89262.qm@web94703.mail.in2.yahoo.com> References: <379834.41347.qm@web57205.mail.re3.yahoo.com> <47e122a70906031010k2f899350v730958204570099@mail.gmail.com> <912699.89262.qm@web94703.mail.in2.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <47e122a70906041144y1fde2eadhd6e45196687b6c8@mail.gmail.com> Thanks dear Sengupta for pointing out wrong sound used to Dr. Binakay Sen, ( singh ) this also surprises me that how our immediate sounds and meanings, can dominate ‘the subject’ , and can alter our perceptions even , unwittingly. 'Singh' just happens to be a popular sound where i live presently.... 'Kashmir', crept in on its own, while talking Tamils problem in Sri Lanka, ......... perhaps, i felt it might stimulate another round of healthy debate around the issues, which are home to some most painful wounds ; wounds gifted by the immediate present than past, but i am afraid that we still dont have a clue. defeating ‘a terrorist’ or his will, simply can not solve the problem, as something other kind of violence replace is, with some other form, some other nuance of it, full of vengeance, completely removed from any ethical or moral considerations of normal living. See, if the main-stream life style was the ideal form of living why then most of the forms of violence are controlled by the very political system of which are part, and even celebrate that… the state violence against its subjects which we happen to see not as terrorism , not only breeds terrorism , but other forms of encroachments of the subject, often annihilating her/his base. Perhaps, we need to study the modern, developed/developing modes of living more with suspicion than with a blind acceptability. A seemingly peaceful system that compels a society to a particular destination is not necessarily friendly. Not let us see it from other angle: Americans defeated its armed original inhabitants and we got Americanism. Australia defeated its unarmed aboriginals, but it now all white, racist society, Bias against a community is deeper than we may believe, I once happened to interact with some French in Alsace, where there is the only French concentrations camp, and there are just few few jews around, but the hate against them is so loud, which surprised me, there is no question of unemployment or exploitation and any community but the difference easily translates into politics of hate , which obviously brought the right wing majority in Alsace during last French elections. It was that time Coming back to issue of Tamils in Sri Lanka: the equal distribution of resources and share in power is just utopian, and so the conflict is inevitable, defeating them at the moment has not eradicated the problem at the core… Regarding Kashmir issue, I wish there was some new politics, some new wave of humanism, some new urge to restore forests and love for music and poetry. Alas, the politics of defiance was bereft of such vital nuances, and given the complicity of Indian greed to maintain the territory only gave white washed that possibility. nothing will erase the essential of what is at people’s heart . Unfortunately the freedom struggle was contrived and only resulted in the violence , and an excuse for Indian Security Forces to kill and rape kashmiris. Sad. Thinking of Constitution of Kashmir as thorn in the eye of Indian Nationalism is just one obsolete form of expression, on the contrary accepting it and letting them live on their own terms might heal, but I am afraid, now everybody is opportunistic… so nobody is really clean to point a finger at the other But human will can not fail without a struggle, My pessimistic view can be limited Love is On Thu, Jun 4, 2009 at 12:06 PM, subhrodip sengupta wrote: > They are still treated as second class citizens. The gift a ring for tamil > name shows how much are the popular want for a seggregated tamil culture. > Beyond this, doesn't a seperate nation stste start? Do not know, but the > statements of some retired army officer shows how Indian Peacekeeping force > was responsible in butchering of several tamils before the LTTE surrender. > On reading this I recall the shocking incident when NSG commando's wer send > on a wide area prooning operation, the time involved was bound top have > consequences. What I read was in this all clear operation the last hostages > were hearing a live conversation ------- Indeed the all cleqar was achieved. > Indian interests might have been well to prevent Indian Tamils from > seperating from India, where I do support your view. AGAIN, where do we find > heroism in an ENcumbant having spent billions of rupees on Army. oops two > encumbants meeting a bloody end to a small entrant. After all the State will > use repressive measures to protect it's scale and logic. Even Naxals were > driven out by the CrPF and Indian Army. But the point they make, lets the > moderates take the debate on and have a stand which elsewhere was not > possible, an exception the Naxalite movement, may be because yet it has not > been crushed. And I beg your pardon but Dr Binayek's surname is SEN not > Singh. >   Constitution's Kashmir a special status gives a peculiar discomfort to > INDIAN REPUBLIC, which is rather an unmanagebly large state. You might not > appreciate in Delhi, but go a bit interior and you'll feel where except at > junctures of getting fund, there are healthy relations with outsiders' > interference in administration. BUt except allotting pieces of land to > Kashmiri pandits, my stand is unless their claim is settled,a ny kind of > agreement on Kashir will set a wrong example for a ready to break UNion. > There is a bodo issue and a Red corridoor as well. There are pressures by > Fdi and you can not set an example which will break it into pieces. And as > long as Hindus can not return to Kashmir any talks or treaty shall be > partial. I do not praise the manner in which Army is reacting to enraged > Public, as well, but encouraging mass rage is not good, though there might > be talks with people about it. Who are Pakistanis to talk about Kashmir. or > whi is a foriegn sponsored terrorist to talk on it? Yes Kashmiri Terrorists > might be include if they are willing to though! > Subhrodip. > ________________________________ > From: Inder Salim > To: reader-list > Sent: Wednesday, 3 June, 2009 10:40:10 PM > Subject: Re: [Reader-list] India accused of complicity in deaths of Sri > Lankan Tamils > > Dear Kshmendra > > thanks for forward > > ever since IPKF  ( indian peace keeping force )  launched itself > against LTTE i see Indian complicity in continuum > > the fall of Tamils in Sri Lanka was bound to happen, as no terrorist > activity sustains itself beyond a decade or so. That has happened in > Punjab and perhaps we see it happening in Kashmir as well. I always > feel that 'dissent', mainly political, as and when crosses a certain > limit of violence it only helps the state to strengthen.....strangely > , after the fall of any terrorist outfit, i see erstwhile politicians > acquiring more lethal looks than before. > > there are are reasons to fear any sign which marks the defeat of these > Militants-Turned-Terrorists organizations because now the so called > main stream politicians will be armed with  many excuses to quell any > expressions that  may demand the restoration of the sensible, ....... > perhaps, because of millions of such organized state violence against > its subjects has resulted into this present mindset of Nationalism, > wherein we even see the story of human civilization, > > i see no escape for the masses, and i see no end to the possibilities > of terror outfits throwing blood on the flowery still life on our > routine canvas.  am i too pessimist ? > > We, the peaceful living entities in India have a natural consensus > against Naxals, ( a movement by landless people ) which led to  a > recent farcical arrest of Dr. Binayak Singh, and now strangely his > supporters have no choice but to be thankful to an SC Judgement that > grated him bail after two years of illegal confinement,  but the good > judges too might not be good against the a real Naxal, if arrest, just > on as flimsy grounds as Dr. Binayak Singh.....( Perhaps, former > Railway minister George Ferndese  was a Naxalite,  once )... strange > are the ways of main stream politics... > > i know it is not possible to understand these conflicts with one yard > stick. and yet we see similarities, > and some questions arising out of that, just for curiosity > > LTTE's success would have unnerved Indian Nation State, since Tamil > Nadu too could have become part of it, if not now, but in future, but > why cant there be one exclusive Tamil country with its own language, > administration, if all the Tamils want it, why denial ? ( meanwhile, i > have no big enthusiasm for any formations of new boarders/territories, > but statuesque are proven sterile...  ) > > I know the slogan like multiculturalism etc are good for the health of > society/nation etc etc. but on the ground, Tamils in Sri Lanka were > treated as second class citizens, so why cant LTTE  be seen as a just > political expression, of course driven by obsolete protest procedures. > > but on the other hand how deep is the relation between violence and > politics, we both know. quite paradoxical ... > > .......some  managed their territorial dissent, with their money or > modernity, where people dont see much difference between this and > that,  French managed it, Spain too , and  now main stream Iraqi  too > seems to settle down with Kurdistan within one Iraq map. there are > many examples, > > here in India too we are settled with Punjab issue, but with Kashmir > issue, i guess Indian diplomacy is still at square one? or things have > quite drifted in other direction because of ennui ... > > or you see it differently? > > with love > is > > > On Wed, Jun 3, 2009 at 3:10 PM, Kshmendra Kaul > wrote: >> >> From The Times >> June 1, 2009 >> >> >> "India accused of complicity in deaths of Sri Lankan Tamils" >> >> >> >> >> >> >> Jeremy Page, South Asia Correspondent >> >> >> India was accused yesterday of complicity in the killing of an estimated >> 20,000 civilians in the last stages of Sri Lanka’s 26-year war against the >> Tamil Tigers. >> >> Major-General Ashok Mehta, a former commander of Indian peacekeeping >> forces in Sri Lanka, said that India’s role was “distressing and >> disturbing”. Two international human rights groups said that India had >> failed to do enough to protect civilian lives. >> >> “We were complicit in this last phase of the offensive when a great number >> of civilians were killed,” General Mehta, who is now retired, told The >> Times. “Having taken a decision to go along with the campaign, we went along >> with it all the way and ignored what was happening on the ground.” >> >> Despite being home to 60 million Tamils, India has provided Sri Lanka with >> military equipment, training and intelligence over the past three years, >> diplomatic sources told The Times. More controversially, it provided >> unwavering diplomatic support and failed to use its influence to negotiate a >> ceasefire for civilians to escape the front line, they said. >> >> India joined a bloc led by China and Russia at a special session of the UN >> Human Rights Council last week to thwart a proposal for a war crimes >> inquiry, and instead supported a resolution praising Sri Lanka. In January >> India voted in favour of a war crimes inquiry into Israel’s operation in the >> Gaza Strip, which killed an estimated 926 civilians. >> >> General Mehta said that the Indian Government, led by the Congress Party, >> wanted to counterbalance China and Pakistan, its main regional rivals, which >> had each increased arms sales to Sri Lanka in the past few years. It also >> wanted to avenge the Tigers’ assassination in 1991 of Rajiv Gandhi, the >> Prime Minister and late husband of Sonia Gandhi, the current Congress >> leader, he said. >> >> Brad Adams, Asia director of Human Rights Watch, said that neither reason >> justified failing to act when the Red Cross warned of an “unimaginable >> humanitarian catastrophe”. India “could have saved many lives if it had >> taken a proactive position — and it would not have affected the outcome of >> the war,” he said.. >> >> Sam Zarifi, Asia Pacific director of Amnesty International, said: “India . >> . . simply chose to support the [Sri Lankan] Government’s notion that it >> could kill as many civilians as it would take to defeat the Tigers.” >> >> India says that it provided Sri Lanka with non-lethal military equipment >> and sent officials repeatedly to persuade the Government to protect >> civilians. “We’ve consistently taken the line that the Sri Lankan Government >> should prevent civilian casualties,” a Foreign Ministry spokesman said. >> >> However, President Rajapaksa of Sri Lanka told NDTV: “I don’t think I got >> any pressure from them. They knew that I’m fighting their war.” >> >> Mr Rajapaksa told The Week magazine that he planned to visit Delhi next >> month to thank Indian leaders. “India’s moral support during the war was >> most important,” he said. >> >> Diplomats, human rights activists and analysts say that Delhi either did >> not use its full diplomatic force or, more likely, gave Colombo carte >> blanche to finish the war. India’s only real concerns, they said, were that >> the conflict should not create a flood of refugees to India. Some raised >> questions about Vijay Nambiar, a former Indian diplomat, who is chief of >> staff to Ban Ki Moon, the UN Secretary-General. The Times revealed last week >> that Mr Nambiar knew about but chose not to make public the UN’s estimate >> that 20,000 civilians had been killed, mostly by army shelling. >> >> http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/world/asia/article6401557.ece >> >> >> >> >> _________________________________________ >> reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. >> Critiques & Collaborations >> To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai..net with >> subscribe in the subject header. >> To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list >> List archive: > > > -- > > http://indersalim.livejournal.com > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with subscribe > in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> > ________________________________ > Cricket on your mind? Visit the ultimate cricket website. Enter now! -- http://indersalim.livejournal.com From shuddha at sarai.net Fri Jun 5 02:00:03 2009 From: shuddha at sarai.net (Shuddhabrata Sengupta) Date: Fri, 5 Jun 2009 02:00:03 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Introducing the Jewish-Kashmiri Dialogue Group Message-ID: Dear all, I have observed with some amusement, the efforts of those who lambast what is 'sickularism' on this list to build the occasional overarching alliance based on the idea of a common animosity towards all, or most things Islamicate, or even notionally Muslim. This occasionally leads today's Holy Hindutva Warriors, and some other unreconstructed contemporary Indian patriots into a wholehearted embrace of Zionism, and all things that they think are Israeli. Their logic is as follows. The Israeli state finds itself threatened by Palestinian insbordination. Most Palestinians are Muslim, some are Christian. Therefore, Jews, (the raison d'etre of the Israeli stae) must be Anti-Muslim and at least to some extent, Anti-Christian. Therefore, Hindu and Jewish extremists must have reasons to form an alliance, on the basis of the principle of 'my enemy's enemy is my friend'. Hence all Hindu Indian patriots and all Jewish Israeli nationalists are natural allies. So much so that implicit in many of their utterances (including on this list) is the theme of the fond hope of a Hindu-Jewish bulwark against Islam. Occasionally, these fond hopes meet with some reciprocity in the untra-zionist fringe, in organizations like Kach and Meir Kahane, which are considered extremist, even in Isreal. And weblinks between sites like Hinduunity.org and Kach/Kahane websites are not unknown. Perhaps the links, fostered on a common animosity to the Muslim within, go deeper than just cyberspace. Only time can tell exactly how much Hindutva warriore and extremist Zionists have learnt from each other. This is notwithstanding the strident and colourful anti-semitism of Hindutva's founding prophets, such as M.S. Golwalkar, who wholeheartedly approved of what they thought was the sensible Nazi approach to the Jewish question. Golwalkar sincerely believed that the Nazi decision to gas Jews stemmed out of a 'noble race pride' that he himself hoped to emulate, circumstances permitting, on Indian soil. We are all lucky that the RSS sarsanghchalak madcap ideas never achieved fruition. Much water has flown down all sacred rivers since then, and it is not surprising that yesterday's anti-semites, are today's arch zionists. Identity based enmity is inscribed deep into the foundations of fundamentalisms of all kinds, be they Hindu, Muslim or Jewish. All it takes for a switch to occur is a variation in the identity of one's adversary. To many different kinds of anti-semites, the target of anti-semitism has just shifted a few degrees, from Jew to Muslim. I find it interesting, and necessary to disturb these neat and abstract patterbs abd alliances. I have said before, i am far more interested in those who are called traitors than to those who call themselves patriots. Because, in the end, I believe that it is the traitors on either sides of an endemic conflict who carry with themselves to make peace. And that is why I take the ethic of treason seriously. I want to draw all your attentions towards an initiative, which though small, I find interesting. And here, I would like to introduce you all to the 'Jewish Kashmiri Dialgue Group' which brings Israeli and non Israeli Jewish activists together with Kashmiris resisting the military occupation of Kashmir by the Government of India. Contrary to the popular stereotype, especially as it is current within the Hindutva milieu, these are Israeli (and diaspora) Jews who make common cause with those in Kashmir who are not necessarily happy with Indian hegemony. The report I am forwarding is from the respectable and mainstream Israeli newspaper, the Ha'aretz. I hope that this makes some non-sickular stomachs churn. Indeed, there are traitors everywhere, even in Israel. I am well aware that it will not make Hindutva apologists alone uncomfortable, it will also raise the hackles of the Islamic fundamentalists who desperately try and lay a monopolostic and proprietorial claim to the 'Azaadi' sentiment in Kashmir. To think that Jews and Muslims are sitting together to make common cause on the matter of Kashmir, and that too against the Indian occupation, is sure to make both Panun Kashmir, and Kashmiri Muslim Fundamentalists fret and fume under the collar. It would also displease militant Zionists no end. I must say that the consequence of this displeasure - the common chagrin of Hindu as well as Muslim fundamentalists and Militant Zionists does not make my wicked sickular soul unhappy in the least. What else can you expect of someone affected by the malady of sickularism. regards, Shuddha ___________ Jewish-Kashmiri Dialogue Group Ha'aretz, June 02, 2009 http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/1088812.html Last update - 12:03 28/05/2009 What does a Jewish-Kashmiri dialogue group have to talk about? By Aatif Ahmad and Alex Stein Tags: kashmir, israel news When we tell people about the Jewish-Kashmiri Dialogue-Group (JKDG), their reaction is usually one of bewilderment. "There are Jews in Kashmir?!?" they say. Or, "Where's Kashmir?" At best they ask, "What do Jews and Kashmiris have to talk about?" The answer is: A lot. One of us, Alex Stein - an Israeli - traveled to Kashmir during his post- army trip to India. While there, he wrote an article about the Kashmiri struggle for independence from India on The Guardian's Web site, attracting attention from local people who were heartened by outsiders supporting their call for autonomy. This prompted Alex to forge a connection between Kashmiris and Diaspora Jews. Kashmir, the northwestern region of the Indian subcontinent, has been a melting pot for millennia. Culturally and ethnically, it is a mixture of the ancient Persian civilization of Central Asia and Indian civilization. Kashmir was an independent kingdom throughout most of its history; from 1845 to 1947, it was ruled by a maharaja (king) under British protection. After the British left India in 1947, a dispute arose between the two successor states of India and Pakistan over Kashmir. Following a war between these newly independent countries two-thirds of the region coming under Indian rule, with the rest going to Pakistan. The catalyst for establishment of the JKDG came in November 2008, after the horrific terror attacks on Mumbai, one of whose targets was the Chabad House. After he wrote an article on the subject, Alex was contacted by Aatif Ahmad, a London-based Kashmiri lawyer, who wrote: "The people in Kashmir are horrified by the targeting of Jews ... Nothing could be more against Kashmir's cultural ethos and its tradition of coexistence than the heinous actions in Mumbai." Although Aatif was expressing his own personal opinions, they are shared by many Kashmiris: An ethnic Kashmiri has never committed a Mumbai-style attack anywhere in the world. Advertisement Alex was heartened by this unequivocal condemnation of the terror attacks. As our correspondence continued, we both decided that it was important to formally establish a group that would promote dialogue between Jews and Kashmiris around the world. It met for the first time in February in London, at the Moishe House, a Jewish community center dedicated to innovative educational programming. At that meeting we explained our traditions to each other and discussed Jewish and Kashmiri history, as well as the current situation in the Middle East and Kashmir. The encounter was challenging and valuable, and both sides learned a great deal. Our group aims to meet twice a year in London, and to help raise awareness about the Kashmiri issue in the Jewish world. Further down the line, we also hope to provide services to Jews and Israelis visiting Kashmir, such as home hospitality and guided tours. As Aatif writes, Jews are and always have been welcome in Kashmir. Israelis have for a number of years constituted the largest number of foreign tourists there. Unlike many Muslim countries where Jews face hostility, they have been met with only hospitality and tolerance in Kashmir. In fact, in 1991, when Jews were taken hostages by Islamist militants in Kashmir, it was a local group - the Jammu Kashmir Liberation Front (or JKLF, which supports a secular independent Kashmir) - that rescued them. Kashmir's fabled natural beauty and its relative proximity offer Israelis tremendous opportunities for tourism. Since the incident in 1991, Jewish tourists have visited the region for years and have not faced any problems there. Our group aims to strengthen this link, to encourage more Jews to visit and perhaps, one day, to stimulate Kashmiri travel to Israel as well. Kashmir's handicrafts and other exports have yet to be fully marketed in Israel. There is another dimension to Jewish-Kashmiri cooperation, stemming from the similarities in the cultures and various traditions, which claim that one of the lost Tribes of Israel ended up in Kashmir. While scholars have yet to unearth solid evidence to substantiate this claim, there is nothing fantastic about the possibility of ancient connections between the two civilizations. Kashmir was, after all, located on the Silk Road, and Jewish communities flourished along that route and in Central Asia as late as the 20th century. Kashmir is also famous for its unique culture of tolerance and for the peaceful coexistence between its various communities, known as Kashmiriyat ("Kashmiriness"), which underlies its nationhood. The national poet of Kashmir, Mahjoor, once wrote: "Muslims are milk, Hindus are sugar." While the rest of the Indian subcontinent was consumed by violence between Hindus and Muslims after 1947, Kashmir was one of the few places where the Hindu minority lived safely. The recent upsurge in religious fundamentalism has threatened the cultural values of Kashmiriyat, but they have not destroyed it, and these values are witnessing a revival. It is these values that enable Jews to feel at home in Kashmir. Naturally, the rights of the Palestinian people and their struggle for self-determination are dear to the hearts of the Kashmiri people. However, true to their ethos and principles, Kashmiris believe that tolerance and coexistence, values embodied in Kashmiriyat, are the best means for fighting injustice and achieving national independence. The JKDG aims to promote such goals. Aatif Ahmad is a Kashmiri lawyer living in London. Alex Stein lives in Tel Aviv and currently works in fundraising. He blogs at http:// falsedichotomies.com. For more information on the Jewish-Kashmiri Dialogue Group, e-mail: alex.stein at talk21.com Shuddhabrata Sengupta The Sarai Programme at CSDS Raqs Media Collective shuddha at sarai.net www.sarai.net www.raqsmediacollective.net From shuddha at sarai.net Fri Jun 5 02:12:42 2009 From: shuddha at sarai.net (Shuddhabrata Sengupta) Date: Fri, 5 Jun 2009 02:12:42 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] =?windows-1252?q?=91As_Hindus=2C_We_Were_Expected_T?= =?windows-1252?q?o_Further_The_Cause_With_Our_Stories=92?= In-Reply-To: <6353c690906040418j17f44fe4q2ad526a3b4af6eff@mail.gmail.com> References: <5c5369880906032322h52bc9d5fwb1a3953cf94096af@mail.gmail.com> <6353c690906040418j17f44fe4q2ad526a3b4af6eff@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <9A178570-2300-4D9B-9424-AB43553542F2@sarai.net> Dear all, I find it surprising how any expression of difference with the received wisdom of what exactly happened in Jammu during the days of the Amarnath agitation last year must be treated with this kind of callous and ad hominem attack. And since when do journalistic ethics include an endorsement of covering up the reality of the reporter's own experiences. I think the journalist in question has displayed a rare courage in breaking ranks and talking about the reality of the atmosphere of a news room as she saw it through a crisis situation. I wish there were more, not less people like her, in every newspaper and magazine. Notice, that once again, no effort is made by those on this list who are heaping abuse on Simple Pani to rebut the arguments or observations made by her on their own merit. All that is done is a blanket denial of any credibility simply on the grounds that a different voice has made itself heard. And that voice is given the distinction of treason. She is all the more dangerous because she is not the notional other. First we heard - from the partisans of the Amarnath agitation - "no one knows what is going on in Jammu, because none of the people criticising the Amarnath agitation are in Jammu". Now, that we have heard from someone who was in Jammu in that critical period, she must be discredited on specious grounds that have nothing to do with what she has said. A loud voice does not make for a sound argument. best Shuddha On 04-Jun-09, at 4:48 PM, Aditya Raj Kaul wrote: > Wonder how many days the so called "ïnsider" has worked in Jammu. > Sitting in > the air conditioned office and filing stories is an altogether > different > deal. She seems to have not left the four walls or else confined > herself to > Orissa. > > The Jammu based media friends deny this allegation. This includes her > colleagues in the newspaper she worked for. > > The National media was anyway openly biased against the Jammu > agitation > against religious propaganda initiated by PDP and separatist elements. > > Simple M Pani should join Kak 'sahab' in documentary making. The > "valuable > insider account" (well thought, infact) may just lead to another > well funded > propaganda masala movie. > Such immature tales put the media to shame. Horrible. > > > > On Thu, Jun 4, 2009 at 11:52 AM, Sanjay Kak > wrote: > >> As an 'insider' account of the workings of India's mainstream press, >> and its professionalism and politics, this is a most valuable >> account. >> Best >> Sanjay Kak >> >> >> From Tehelka Magazine, Vol 6, Issue 22, Dated Jun 06, 2009 >> CULTURE & SOCIETY >> personal histories >> >> ‘As Hindus, We Were Expected To Further The Cause With Our Stories’ >> >> Simple M Pani >> Is 32. She is a journalist based in New Delhi >> >> Illustration: UZMA MOHSIN >> >> EVERY YEAR, I look starry-eyed at the awardees of the Ramnath Goenka >> Excellence in Journalism Awards and at the stalwarts handing over the >> honours. For grit, hard work, tenacity and honesty to the trade, >> without a care for reward, getting richly rewarded. But this year, I >> couldn’t quell a queasy feeling in my stomach when the virtues of >> fair >> reporting were spoken about at the event. This has been happening >> since the Amarnath land agitation, when I was reporting for the Jammu >> bureau of a leading national daily. It visited Jammu like a gale, >> sweeping away in gusts the sense of fair play and discrimination of >> many scribes. In our morning meetings, it was assumed as a given that >> being Hindus, we (reporters, photojournalists and other staff) >> supported the agitation for restoration of land to the Amarnath >> Shrine >> Board. Not only were we expected to support it whole-heartedly but it >> was considered our ‘moral’ duty to further its cause through our >> stories. It was routine for our editor to ask, “So how is the >> agitation faring in xyz place?” and an over-zealous colleague to >> answer passionately, “Excellent. It’s got a tremendous response >> there” >> and for the editor to rub his chin and say, “But find out what >> challenges they are facing in abc place and how it could be >> strengthened there.” If you were in Jammu, you had to sing paeans to >> the agitators. What smacked of fascism was that no other line of >> thinking, let alone criticism of any sort, was brooked. The few media >> houses that did judge it critically, were a woeful minority. >> >> Two quixotic features of the agitation stood out. First, to refuse to >> recognise the real. To pretend not to see something as stark as an >> economic blockade of the Valley, imposed by the stone-pelting >> agitators by attacking and burning Valley-bound trucks. (I’ve seen >> trucks burnt to rubble by agitators, on the Jammu-Pathankote National >> Highway, but naturally, it wasn’t considered newsworthy in several >> publications because the Jammu media had decided there was no >> blockade. This assumption ruled out any question of trucks being >> attacked.) This kind of dangerous, deductive logic crafting an >> alternative reality was rampant at the time. The storyline would be >> decided in the office and reporters would be asked to select data >> from >> the field to support it. For instance, to prove the nonexistence of a >> blockade, we would be asked to report that medicines were >> available in >> plenty in Jammu. If there were a blockade, then Jammu would be >> equally >> hit, ran the specious logic. In reality, Jammu faced a severe >> shortage >> of medicines! >> >> Second, to fancy the unreal as real, by drawing parallels between >> itself and the India’s Freedom Movement. Like praising the Emperor’s >> new clothes, which despite any empirical reality, were extolled to >> the >> skies. Eulogies of “those brave, nationalist, heroes,” the agitators, >> who went about uprooting railway tracks, smashing windows of public >> transport that dared to ply on the roads in defiance of the bandh >> call, and violently attacking trucks entering the state, filled reams >> of newsprint every day. Strangely, the mute common man of Jammu, the >> poor news vendor and hawker on the streets seemed to be more >> discerning than the city’s intelligentsia. They knew that there was >> much more to nationalism than flag-waving xenophobia. That sporting a >> ‘Bhagat Singh moustache’ wasn’t enough to equate one with the martyr. >> They knew that vandalism couldn’t pass for bravery and that they >> would >> have to repay the loss caused to the state from their pockets; all of >> which the intelligentsia missed, in a misplaced fervour. >> >> Despite the claim that the struggle was solely for the restoration of >> land to the Amarnath Shrine Board, the fact is it did degenerate into >> hate for the ‘other.’ Gujjars’ kullas were burnt in hundreds. The >> word >> “Kashmir” was knocked off from the Kashmir Square Mall, a Delhi-style >> mall in town, and was rechristened ‘City Square Mall.’ Such >> sentiments >> are dangerous for any civilised society, more so when the media, the >> supposed watchdog of liberal values, is gung-ho about it. >> >> From Tehelka Magazine, Vol 6, Issue 22, Dated Jun 06, 2009 >> _________________________________________ >> reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. >> Critiques & Collaborations >> To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with >> subscribe in the subject header. >> To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list >> List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> > > > > > -- > Aditya Raj Kaul > > Freelance Correspondent, The Times of India > Cell - +91-9873297834 > > Blog: http://activistsdiary.blogspot.com/ > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > subscribe in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> Shuddhabrata Sengupta The Sarai Programme at CSDS Raqs Media Collective shuddha at sarai.net www.sarai.net www.raqsmediacollective.net From rakesh.rnbdj at gmail.com Fri Jun 5 08:13:39 2009 From: rakesh.rnbdj at gmail.com (Rakesh Iyer) Date: Fri, 5 Jun 2009 08:13:39 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Introducing the Jewish-Kashmiri Dialogue Group In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Dear Shuddha jee (and all) After reading your article, I am reminded of statements made by Dr. Manmohan Singh and Mr. Vinod Mehta (editor, Outlook) made a few years ago: 'When you know you are getting kicked by both the Left and the Right, you know you are on the right path.' - Manmohan ji 'The truth lies, as all other things lie, in the middle.' - Vinod ji May be it's time our Hindutva warriors, their Islamic brethren (on the fundamentalist side, that is) as well as the joker Left (at least the political left in India is a joker) would do well to change their ideas and think about the livelihoods of people and how to improve them through struggles, rather than fighting for Hindu dharm and Islam kaum, or useless PSU-govt.workers' strikes which don't help the common people at all. Regards Rakesh From kmvenuannur at gmail.com Fri Jun 5 08:25:37 2009 From: kmvenuannur at gmail.com (Venugopalan K M) Date: Fri, 5 Jun 2009 08:25:37 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] The "Sickular" History In-Reply-To: References: <438921.37167.qm@web57202.mail.re3.yahoo.com> <1f9180970906040911t4f9bb715s828c4feeccdda343@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <1f9180970906041955k2758540ap30c14abcdc3f3d10@mail.gmail.com> Dear Rakesh, As far as I can gather from your post, you seem to suggest that generalization about people feeling themselves (again,generally) let down by single point hate/communal /sensational agenda one after another, is not possible against the backdrop of the verdict 2009. >"....and if the people feel the BJP is communal, it should not have got a single vote, nor should it have won any seat in India..." You seem to forget that the rise of BJP to power itself was precisely on a single point communal agenda. This is why I would suggest that the Hindu majority were misled in the recent past; (even in the 2009 elections, among other things, Ram temple /demolition of Babari Masjid was raised as an important issue). The BJP's main plank has always been communalism plus bellicose nationalism- this is hatred unlimited, expressed toward Muslims,Christians and Communists. While the RSS even with enjoying tacit logistic support from Congress regimes earlier could not gather the critical mass of electoral support to its earlier political child Janasangh, the BJP could accomplish this through its renewed hate propaganda in the late 1980s and the 1990s. Take the example of Gujarat- you ask the majority to treat the minority as second class citizens and assure the former protections for whatever crimes committed against the latter, the state itself showing the models of how the 'second class' citizens could be treated. I like to appreciate your point that the Congress as well had done these sort of things at certain points of time. But communalism and hatred , as an ideology is not inscribed at large on the face of Congress.This is not to suggest that the organized pogrom against the Sikhs in the aftermath of the assassination of Indira Gandhi in 1984 had shown lesser display of communalism and hate than the BJP brand. Rather, I wish to see this as an aberration of the its basic orientation to secularism. These two are essentially different in as much as the former is of strategical and permanent, while the latter is tactical and temporal. Though we don't have to blame the people and undoubtedly we should not do so (for voting in favour of communalism), certainly we do have reasons to laud them in the context of the verdict 2009! Regards, Venu. Thu, Jun 4, 2009 at 11:20 PM, Rakesh Iyer wrote: > Dear Venugopalan jee > > With full respect to your views and perceptions, I think making comments > like the way you have made in your post, is something akin to what Mr. Bipin > usually used to do on this forum. Then also, I had stated that such general > comments should not be made particularly since there was no proof of certain > things he said. > > The BJP may have lost vote share in all the states (except Karnataka and one > more state, which I don't remember, their vote percentage went down in all > the states, compared to 2004 Lok Sabha elections), but the reasons can vary > from state to state. Even in Gujarat, the reasons for their vote share going > down need not be attributed to secularism without looking at the ground > level response. And so from the technical point of view, as I see it myself > and you will also accept, it's difficult to say that the BJP lost because > people voted for secularism. If that were the case, and if the people feel > the BJP is communal, it should not have got a single vote, nor should it > have won any seat in India. > > The problem here is that there is a difference between the conclusions of > the election verdict, and the reasons for the verdict. I accept that the > conclusion drawn is that the verdict has broken the back of the Left and the > Right. But I can't accept that the reason was that the people wanted to > throw both of them away, otherwise the BJP would also have suffered the > plight of the Left and it's seats would have gone down below 100 or even > 50.(Like the Left went down from 61 in 2004 to below 30 this time) > > Secondly, the assumption you have made is somewhat tricky. As the Congress > has won, you congratulate people for having voted on secularism. If the BJP > would have won, you say people were misled! This way, the BJP supporter can > argue for the vice versa! Whom should I believe? > > The fact is that the Lok Sabha has 543 constituencies, and each constituency > has its own set of issues and ideas based on which people vote. These are > determined by numerous factors. People vote based on caste, religion, sex, > sometimes money or other gifts obtained, the reputation of the candidates > standing from the constituency, the party which they belong to, the ideology > they believe in(Marxism/Hindutva/secularism/others), the national issues, > local issues like bijli-sadak-pani-roti-kapda-makan-etc., and so on. > > To say that people were misled because one party won or because people are > intelligent because they voted for the other party, I don't think is a fair > thing to say about any verdict, whether the Congress wins or the BJP. > > Most importantly, I believe the Congress is not a secular party. It can > change colours from being communal in 1984 to being 'secular' now. As for > the others, it's just the Muslim vote they want, if they can get that > through riots then they will definitely try to do so. (The Mau riots in UP > during Mulayam's rule or the Bhagalpur riots in which RJD men were also > involved is a testimony to this. Infact, if I am not wrong, one of the > convicted persons in the Bhagalpur riots was contesting on RJD ticket in > assembly elections in 2005 from Bhagalpur) > > The BJP's rise has forced the Congress to remain secular, otherwise it would > have been a B-team of Hindutva on the national scale. Of course, their idea > of a 'Hindu consolidated vote', also an idea of the RSS, started with Indira > Gandhi during her second reign and the riots which took place every year > somewhere in some part of the country with police involvement both directly > and indirectly, which was a huge shame. > > As for the Congress majority, the fact is that the Congress has just got 206 > seats, not 272 on its own. And the DMK and the Trinamool Congress have > already shown that it's a 'coalition' govt, not a one-party govt. Plus of > course, the Congress should not forget to thank Raj Thackeray in Maharashtra > and Chiranjeevi in Andhra Pradesh (I would not name DMDK here because > according to a survey done by CSDS which is also a part of Sarai, the DMDK > snatched voters from both the DMK and the AIADMK allliance. How much was it > true in the final verdict is something only God knows) > > The Left unnecessarily stopped some steps which could have helped the nation > at large. Infact, the Left's implementation of the NREGA was a huge > disaster. And about their politics, the less said the better. It's been a > long time since they were associated with a non-electoral mass movement to > improve the lives of the downtrodden and the poor. A point probably for the > Karats, the Yechurys, the Biman Boses and the Buddhadevs to ponder about. > > The silver lining in this verdict is that the verdict has given the UPA to > actually conduct some important economic reforms (like making a common > consumer-based inflation index instead of the wholesale price index we use, > refrain from being in sectors like hotels and making beedis or even airlines > etc.), major governance, police and judicial reforms (in other words the > administrative reforms as stated by the ARC under Veerappa Moily, the > current Law Minister), and bring about transparency and accountability in > the system, to give relief to the 'aam aadmi'. > > Otherwise be ready for the people to be misled in the next elections. (In > your own words, sir) > > Regards > > Rakesh > > > -- http://venukm.blogspot.com/ From rakesh.rnbdj at gmail.com Fri Jun 5 08:36:17 2009 From: rakesh.rnbdj at gmail.com (Rakesh Iyer) Date: Fri, 5 Jun 2009 08:36:17 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] The "Sickular" History In-Reply-To: <1f9180970906041955k2758540ap30c14abcdc3f3d10@mail.gmail.com> References: <438921.37167.qm@web57202.mail.re3.yahoo.com> <1f9180970906040911t4f9bb715s828c4feeccdda343@mail.gmail.com> <1f9180970906041955k2758540ap30c14abcdc3f3d10@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: Dear Venugopal jee Firstly I am sorry to have put up that statement. Since there are people who do vote on communal basis (by this I mean a Hindu will vote for a Hindu only and same for a Muslim), so therefore if the BJP is communal, it would indeed get the votes of these Hindus, not zero votes. So on that count, you are right, Sir, and I apologize for the same. On the account of the Congress, I would say that wrong is wrong and the Congress can't call itself to be secular because of such incidents even 100 years from now. And for the Congress anyway, the problem is more than that. They have a stereotypical image of the Muslims (as seen in their Urdu campaign posters they gave), and also would like this image to be there so that Muslim votes get consolidated behind them, specially in states like the one from where I come (Madhya Pradesh, where there are only two major parties in contention, the Congress and the BJP), without doing anything good for them.(Of course they announce salaries for the ulemas and the maulvis, but what good is that to the aam Muslims who are poor and require employment?) Any party can and should be deemed secular not only when they respect the faiths of the citizens, but do not indulge in any act which can or may result in creation of hatred in the future or problems in communities. Their consolidation this way can create problems in society tomorrow, as seen in Gujarat. So the Congress, at least in its current form, is not helpful; it has to be changed so that Muslims actually get benefited rather than chanting the word 'Muslim-Muslim-Muslim' in elections like the way 'Om' or 'Gayatri Mantra' is chanted by some devout Hindus Regards Rakesh From kmvenuannur at gmail.com Fri Jun 5 08:43:20 2009 From: kmvenuannur at gmail.com (Venugopalan K M) Date: Fri, 5 Jun 2009 08:43:20 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] The "Sickular" History In-Reply-To: References: <438921.37167.qm@web57202.mail.re3.yahoo.com> <1f9180970906040911t4f9bb715s828c4feeccdda343@mail.gmail.com> <1f9180970906041955k2758540ap30c14abcdc3f3d10@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <1f9180970906042013x1ccb3ff8m783e8bd848d00c4f@mail.gmail.com> Dear Rakesh, In perfect agreement and with warmest regards, Venu. On Fri, Jun 5, 2009 at 8:36 AM, Rakesh Iyer wrote: > Dear Venugopal jee > > Firstly I am sorry to have put up that statement. Since there are people who > do vote on communal basis (by this I mean a Hindu will vote for a Hindu only > and same for a Muslim), so therefore if the BJP is communal, it would indeed > get the votes of these Hindus, not zero votes. So on that count, you are > right, Sir, and I apologize for the same. > > On the account of the Congress, I would say that wrong is wrong and the > Congress can't call itself to be secular because of such incidents even 100 > years from now. And for the Congress anyway, the problem is more than that. > They have a stereotypical image of the Muslims (as seen in their Urdu > campaign posters they gave), and also would like this image to be there so > that Muslim votes get consolidated behind them, specially in states like the > one from where I come (Madhya Pradesh, where there are only two major > parties in contention, the Congress and the BJP), without doing anything > good for them.(Of course they announce salaries for the ulemas and the > maulvis, but what good is that to the aam Muslims who are poor and require > employment?) > > Any party can and should be deemed secular not only when they respect the > faiths of the citizens, but do not indulge in any act which can or may > result in creation of hatred in the future or problems in communities. Their > consolidation this way can create problems in society tomorrow, as seen in > Gujarat. So the Congress, at least in its current form, is not helpful; it > has to be changed so that Muslims actually get benefited rather than > chanting the word 'Muslim-Muslim-Muslim' in elections like the way 'Om' or > 'Gayatri Mantra' is chanted by some devout Hindus > > Regards > > Rakesh > -- http://venukm.blogspot.com/ From pawan.durani at gmail.com Fri Jun 5 11:21:07 2009 From: pawan.durani at gmail.com (Pawan Durani) Date: Fri, 5 Jun 2009 11:21:07 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] =?windows-1252?q?=91As_Hindus=2C_We_Were_Expected_T?= =?windows-1252?q?o_Further_The_Cause_With_Our_Stories=92?= In-Reply-To: <9A178570-2300-4D9B-9424-AB43553542F2@sarai.net> References: <5c5369880906032322h52bc9d5fwb1a3953cf94096af@mail.gmail.com> <6353c690906040418j17f44fe4q2ad526a3b4af6eff@mail.gmail.com> <9A178570-2300-4D9B-9424-AB43553542F2@sarai.net> Message-ID: <6b79f1a70906042251n4da4af4alfb78180ca62bb311@mail.gmail.com> Compulsary revolutionary .....it is must to be an "anti" ...else we loose our credibility and then what will 'they' think.... On 6/5/09, Shuddhabrata Sengupta wrote: > Dear all, > > I find it surprising how any expression of difference with the > received wisdom of what exactly happened in Jammu during the days of > the Amarnath agitation last year must be treated with this kind of > callous and ad hominem attack. And since when do journalistic ethics > include an endorsement of covering up the reality of the reporter's > own experiences. I think the journalist in question has displayed a > rare courage in breaking ranks and talking about the reality of the > atmosphere of a news room as she saw it through a crisis situation. I > wish there were more, not less people like her, in every newspaper > and magazine. > > Notice, that once again, no effort is made by those on this list who > are heaping abuse on Simple Pani to rebut the arguments or > observations made by her on their own merit. All that is done is a > blanket denial of any credibility simply on the grounds that a > different voice has made itself heard. And that voice is given the > distinction of treason. She is all the more dangerous because she is > not the notional other. First we heard - from the partisans of the > Amarnath agitation - "no one knows what is going on in Jammu, because > none of the people criticising the Amarnath agitation are in Jammu". > Now, that we have heard from someone who was in Jammu in that > critical period, she must be discredited on specious grounds that > have nothing to do with what she has said. > > A loud voice does not make for a sound argument. > > best > > Shuddha > > > On 04-Jun-09, at 4:48 PM, Aditya Raj Kaul wrote: > >> Wonder how many days the so called "ïnsider" has worked in Jammu. >> Sitting in >> the air conditioned office and filing stories is an altogether >> different >> deal. She seems to have not left the four walls or else confined >> herself to >> Orissa. >> >> The Jammu based media friends deny this allegation. This includes her >> colleagues in the newspaper she worked for. >> >> The National media was anyway openly biased against the Jammu >> agitation >> against religious propaganda initiated by PDP and separatist elements. >> >> Simple M Pani should join Kak 'sahab' in documentary making. The >> "valuable >> insider account" (well thought, infact) may just lead to another >> well funded >> propaganda masala movie. >> Such immature tales put the media to shame. Horrible. >> >> >> >> On Thu, Jun 4, 2009 at 11:52 AM, Sanjay Kak >> wrote: >> >>> As an 'insider' account of the workings of India's mainstream press, >>> and its professionalism and politics, this is a most valuable >>> account. >>> Best >>> Sanjay Kak >>> >>> >>> From Tehelka Magazine, Vol 6, Issue 22, Dated Jun 06, 2009 >>> CULTURE & SOCIETY >>> personal histories >>> >>> ‘As Hindus, We Were Expected To Further The Cause With Our Stories’ >>> >>> Simple M Pani >>> Is 32. She is a journalist based in New Delhi >>> >>> Illustration: UZMA MOHSIN >>> >>> EVERY YEAR, I look starry-eyed at the awardees of the Ramnath Goenka >>> Excellence in Journalism Awards and at the stalwarts handing over the >>> honours. For grit, hard work, tenacity and honesty to the trade, >>> without a care for reward, getting richly rewarded. But this year, I >>> couldn’t quell a queasy feeling in my stomach when the virtues of >>> fair >>> reporting were spoken about at the event. This has been happening >>> since the Amarnath land agitation, when I was reporting for the Jammu >>> bureau of a leading national daily. It visited Jammu like a gale, >>> sweeping away in gusts the sense of fair play and discrimination of >>> many scribes. In our morning meetings, it was assumed as a given that >>> being Hindus, we (reporters, photojournalists and other staff) >>> supported the agitation for restoration of land to the Amarnath >>> Shrine >>> Board. Not only were we expected to support it whole-heartedly but it >>> was considered our ‘moral’ duty to further its cause through our >>> stories. It was routine for our editor to ask, “So how is the >>> agitation faring in xyz place?” and an over-zealous colleague to >>> answer passionately, “Excellent. It’s got a tremendous response >>> there” >>> and for the editor to rub his chin and say, “But find out what >>> challenges they are facing in abc place and how it could be >>> strengthened there.” If you were in Jammu, you had to sing paeans to >>> the agitators. What smacked of fascism was that no other line of >>> thinking, let alone criticism of any sort, was brooked. The few media >>> houses that did judge it critically, were a woeful minority. >>> >>> Two quixotic features of the agitation stood out. First, to refuse to >>> recognise the real. To pretend not to see something as stark as an >>> economic blockade of the Valley, imposed by the stone-pelting >>> agitators by attacking and burning Valley-bound trucks. (I’ve seen >>> trucks burnt to rubble by agitators, on the Jammu-Pathankote National >>> Highway, but naturally, it wasn’t considered newsworthy in several >>> publications because the Jammu media had decided there was no >>> blockade. This assumption ruled out any question of trucks being >>> attacked.) This kind of dangerous, deductive logic crafting an >>> alternative reality was rampant at the time. The storyline would be >>> decided in the office and reporters would be asked to select data >>> from >>> the field to support it. For instance, to prove the nonexistence of a >>> blockade, we would be asked to report that medicines were >>> available in >>> plenty in Jammu. If there were a blockade, then Jammu would be >>> equally >>> hit, ran the specious logic. In reality, Jammu faced a severe >>> shortage >>> of medicines! >>> >>> Second, to fancy the unreal as real, by drawing parallels between >>> itself and the India’s Freedom Movement. Like praising the Emperor’s >>> new clothes, which despite any empirical reality, were extolled to >>> the >>> skies. Eulogies of “those brave, nationalist, heroes,” the agitators, >>> who went about uprooting railway tracks, smashing windows of public >>> transport that dared to ply on the roads in defiance of the bandh >>> call, and violently attacking trucks entering the state, filled reams >>> of newsprint every day. Strangely, the mute common man of Jammu, the >>> poor news vendor and hawker on the streets seemed to be more >>> discerning than the city’s intelligentsia. They knew that there was >>> much more to nationalism than flag-waving xenophobia. That sporting a >>> ‘Bhagat Singh moustache’ wasn’t enough to equate one with the martyr. >>> They knew that vandalism couldn’t pass for bravery and that they >>> would >>> have to repay the loss caused to the state from their pockets; all of >>> which the intelligentsia missed, in a misplaced fervour. >>> >>> Despite the claim that the struggle was solely for the restoration of >>> land to the Amarnath Shrine Board, the fact is it did degenerate into >>> hate for the ‘other.’ Gujjars’ kullas were burnt in hundreds. The >>> word >>> “Kashmir” was knocked off from the Kashmir Square Mall, a Delhi-style >>> mall in town, and was rechristened ‘City Square Mall.’ Such >>> sentiments >>> are dangerous for any civilised society, more so when the media, the >>> supposed watchdog of liberal values, is gung-ho about it. >>> >>> From Tehelka Magazine, Vol 6, Issue 22, Dated Jun 06, 2009 >>> _________________________________________ >>> reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. >>> Critiques & Collaborations >>> To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with >>> subscribe in the subject header. >>> To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list >>> List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> >> >> >> >> >> -- >> Aditya Raj Kaul >> >> Freelance Correspondent, The Times of India >> Cell - +91-9873297834 >> >> Blog: http://activistsdiary.blogspot.com/ >> _________________________________________ >> reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. >> Critiques & Collaborations >> To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with >> subscribe in the subject header. >> To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list >> List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> > > Shuddhabrata Sengupta > The Sarai Programme at CSDS > Raqs Media Collective > shuddha at sarai.net > www.sarai.net > www.raqsmediacollective.net > > > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with subscribe > in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> From peter.ksmtf at gmail.com Fri Jun 5 11:59:55 2009 From: peter.ksmtf at gmail.com (T Peter) Date: Fri, 5 Jun 2009 11:59:55 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Fishermen face curbs despite LTTE fall Message-ID: <3457ce860906042329v2cdd4b7dxcd8ebb7613b9ecda@mail.gmail.com> *Fishermen face curbs despite LTTE fall* *Date:05/06/2009* *URL: http://www.thehindu.com/2009/06/05/stories/2009060556200100.htm* Ignatius Pereira KOLLAM: Fishermen from the southern districts of the State say the defeat of the Liberation Tigers of Tamil Eelam (LTTE) in Sri Lanka has not eased the security restrictions on them when fishing south of Colachel in Kanyakumari district of Tamil Nadu. They allege continued harassment by maritime security agencies. Crew members of mechanised fishing boats here say that they continue to fish in a tense atmosphere. The security agencies of India and Sri Lanka have not eased their operations. Fishing continues to be a high-risk affair, they say. Highly placed sources in the Indian Coast Guard say that security deployment in the Kerala and Tamil Nadu waters has been enhanced after the defeat of the LTTE. It is also part of a ‘pre-monsoon’ exercise by the Coast Guard since infiltration escalates just before the rain intensifies. Apart from that, the entire waters around the country have been under tight security cover to prevent terrorists from using the sea route. T. Peter, president of the Kerala Swathantra Matsya Thozhilali Federation (independent fish workers’ federation), told *The Hindu *that the Coast Guard continued to intercept and question fishermen from the State. The questions were often asked in Hindi and this made the fishermen flounder. They were many times ordered to change course and return. Even after the defeat of the LTTE, there had been instances in which fishermen had to return on sighting Sri Lankan maritime security authorities off the Kanyakumari waters, he added. But fishermen continue to be drawn into these rich fishing grounds. Commercially valuable and export-oriented marine wealth is aplenty there. In the process of harvesting this wealth, fishermen tend to cross the border. The consequences, if caught by the Sri Lankan authorities, are nightmarish. A good crowd of fishermen from Kollam venture into these waters to fish for four or five days together. They are willing to cooperate with the security forces. But often, they say, security exercises are painful experiences and even with the LTTE out, there is no change. From rashneek at gmail.com Fri Jun 5 12:09:16 2009 From: rashneek at gmail.com (rashneek kher) Date: Fri, 5 Jun 2009 12:09:16 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] The trouble with Cairo-Irshad Manji Message-ID: <13df7c120906042339o348f1721g7df7933d439277dd@mail.gmail.com> How will Obama reach out to Muslims while looking over his shoulder at his authoritarian Egyptian hosts? Wednesday, June 3, 2009 The trouble with Cairo Irshad Manji The Globe and Mail Barack Obama has speech problems. True, he delivers a message mellifluously. But even before giving a major address to the Muslim world this Thursday, America's communicator-in-chief sounds confused. Consider his choice of setting. Cairo, according to White House press secretary Robert Gibbs, “in many ways represents the heart of the Arab world.” Confusion No. 1: Arabs and Muslims are interchangeable. They're not. Fewer than 20 per cent of Muslims live in the Middle East. Cairo is no more the heart of the Muslim world than Jakarta is. Indeed, Indonesia would have been far richer soil for this occasion. It's the most populous Muslim country, boasting as many believers as the entire Arab region. It's a crucible of religious moderation; a national election in April affirmed the upper hand of secular parties. And, despite Mr. Obama's early childhood in Jakarta, Indonesia remains peripheral in the world's imagination. That could have been fixed. Isn't inclusion - making the marginal mainstream - what the Obama presidency is all about? Maybe this missed opportunity will be compensated by content. But what could Mr. Obama say that would show respect to his authoritarian Egyptian hosts while reflecting the challenges he issued to Muslim dictators only months ago? In his inaugural speech on Jan. 20, the President all but named Egypt's Hosni Mubarak when enunciating this line: “To those who cling to power through corruption and deceit and the silencing of dissent, know that you are on the wrong side of history ...” To be sure, Mr. Obama immediately added that “we will extend a hand if you unclench your fist.” Presumably, he meant that governing thugs must loosen the vice-grip on their own populations if they're to enjoy America's favour. If so, Mr. Obama's outreach is that much more confused. In recent years, Cairo has become ground zero for vicious crackdowns on young democracy activists. I've witnessed village boys, recruited by the Mubarak regime, idling in mammoth green patrol wagons as they await cues from Cairo police. Their job? To assault demonstrators who are peacefully demanding political reform. Last year, an Egyptian protester wrote me in desperation. “Do you know,” he reported, “that a girl was arrested because she made a group on Facebook, calling for a strike, and a famous journalist was jailed because he said that Mubarak might be ill since he didn't show up at a ceremony? Sometimes I dare to ask, while I am hiding in the dark, is there hope for us?” Only two weeks ago, a similar e-mail appeared in my inbox from a student at Cairo's Al-Azhar University, which is playing co-host to Mr. Obama and his speech. “No one here [is] using his mind,” the student of sharia lamented. “I can't say what I think, feel or want.” These voices capture a spirit of openness that Mr. Obama claims to embrace. Yet, he's repudiating them in a final gesture associated with Thursday's speech: En route to Egypt, Mr. Obama will stop in Saudi Arabia, where another coterie of criminals “cling to power” through the “silencing of dissent.” Obama-bashers may quip that he wants to perfect his bow to the Saudi king, having swooned for His Highness at the G20 summit. But I don't give a fig how the President greets the al-Saud clan as long as he speaks truth to power about his supposedly signature issue: human rights. “Don't hold your breath,” a friend of the White House recently suggested to me. “I don't see human rights anywhere on the agenda.” Despite being a supporter of the President and a confidante to one of his top aides, he appeared befuddled. I am, too. Perhaps all will be clear after the speech. Perhaps the alchemy of a silver tongue and sturdy teleprompter will bring into sharp relief the strategy crafted by a shrewd disciple of diplomacy. Perhaps. I would simply remind Mr. Obama that his speech comes at the same time as the 200th anniversary of Thomas Paine's death. This British-born American revolutionary foresaw that human dignity is universal. “He that would make his own liberty secure,” Paine noted, “must guard even his enemy from oppression; for if he violates this duty he establishes a precedent that will reach to himself.” Translation: Double standards protect no one. Mr. Obama has already picked up on that point by announcing the end of Guantanamo. Doubtless, he'll emphasize that decision on Thursday. But will he hold his Muslim counterparts to the same standards of accountability that he expects from America? He must, if human rights are, in fact, human and not political. On this, there can be no confusion. -- Rashneek Kher http://www.kashmiris-in-exile.blogspot.com http://www.nietzschereborn.blogspot.com From kauladityaraj at gmail.com Fri Jun 5 12:35:05 2009 From: kauladityaraj at gmail.com (Aditya Raj Kaul) Date: Fri, 5 Jun 2009 12:35:05 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Fresh clashes rock Valley, mob targets Sikh locality Message-ID: <6353c690906050005v43e47e6el959dfb0fd19efaa2@mail.gmail.com> *The latest 'insider truth' is here for all to see. The fascist forces and sidelined separatist elements are targetting innocent minorities. Fresh clashes rock Valley, mob targets Sikh locality* *Indian Express* *June 05, 2009 * *Srinagar *A predominantly Sikh neighbourhood on the outskirts of the city was targeted by a mob as fresh protests and a strike triggered by the alleged rape and murder of two women in Shopian continued to cripple life in large parts of the Valley for the fourth consecutive day. A group of people ransacked 20 houses at Rangreth, breaking window panes and damaging other property on Wednesday evening. Paramjit Kaur, whose house was among those targeted, said: “It happened around 7.45 pm on Wednesday when a group of people first started hurling stones. They broke our gate and destroyed everything that came their way. I along with my children hid in the attic to save ourselves from the frenzied mob.” “This had never happened in the past 20 years,” said Jaspal Singh, an engineer whose house, too, was ransacked. A few cars were also damaged by the mob. Locals said trouble began when a group of protesters enforcing the strike stopped a car being driven by a Sikh. They damaged the car following which there was a scuffle, in which one of the protesters was injured. This was followed by the violence at Rangreth. The authorities reached the area to control the situation. “We held a meeting with the Muslim and Sikh residents and later a peace march was taken out by both of the communities,” said Budgam Deputy Commissioner Mohammad Rafi. On Thursday, hundreds of Muslim women and men from nearby areas thronged Rangreth and assured the Sikhs of their safety. Meanwhile, fresh clashes between protesters and the police broke out in Srinagar and Shopian districts after news spread about the death of a protester. Nisar Ahmad, 25, who was injured during protests on Monday, died at a hospital on Thursday morning. At least 42 people were injured in the fresh clashes. *editor at expressindia.com* From c.anupam at gmail.com Fri Jun 5 12:42:08 2009 From: c.anupam at gmail.com (anupam chakravartty) Date: Fri, 5 Jun 2009 12:42:08 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Urgent Warden Message In-Reply-To: <6b79f1a70906042241o6304d17dje01562222352e525@mail.gmail.com> References: <6b79f1a70906040149o484ffff1j32fa23f2d04fb5cc@mail.gmail.com> <341380d00906040823m79f3a905r279650ecb1b2f731@mail.gmail.com> <6b79f1a70906040833l1f627773q3b40033ffa0c712d@mail.gmail.com> <341380d00906040841h4756aa5p68c48631e78f1f25@mail.gmail.com> <6b79f1a70906042241o6304d17dje01562222352e525@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <341380d00906050012x442fc5d9r1bbb32dd7462a67b@mail.gmail.com> err...Pawan, may be you should head for the hills. u need some peace in life. as you are panic stricken. on second why dont you start staying inside a trench..you will be safe On 6/5/09, Pawan Durani wrote: > > Anupam , > > Just spend some time up in hills. You need a break. > > Pawan > > > > On 6/4/09, anupam chakravartty wrote: > > Dear Pawan, > > > > You might be living in a victory syndrome or loosing streak, for me it > was > > an loss of so many lives. a life lost in such a calamity is more > important > > that any country. but that doesnt mean you unneccesarily start posting > > american embassy communiques here...that too which are stale. these > warnings > > create panic among most sane and normal peace loving person. > > > > you end up propagating the similar ends that these terrorists have been > > trying to achieve -- create fear. > > > > anupam > > > > > > > > > > > > > > On Thu, Jun 4, 2009 at 9:03 PM, Pawan Durani > wrote: > > > >> Dear Anupam , > >> > >> Thank you for pointing out that i suffer from Paranoia. It was quite a > >> polite way to argue. > >> > >> Going forward , there would be many citizens of US who may be subscribed > >> to > >> reader list and may be interested in knowing what their Govt advises > them. > >> > >> After 26/11 , we live in a victory syndrome of having got over the > attack > >> on Mumbai , however I am sure US intelligence would have given their > Govt > >> much valuable feedback as well and we must not neglect how a foreign > >> nation > >> advises its citizen about travelling to our country. > >> > >> Wishes > >> > >> Pawan > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> On Thu, Jun 4, 2009 at 8:53 PM, anupam chakravartty > >> wrote: > >> > >>> dear pawan, > >>> > >>> FYI, this is a form of general warning issued since 2001 after 9/11 > >>> attacks. > >>> i think Pawan you suffer bouts of paranoia on behalf of Americans. here > i > >>> am > >>> NOT trying to defend hafiz sayeed's freedom but please stop creating an > >>> unneccesary state of fear in the reader list. > >>> > >>> can the moderator be slightly more responsible here? > >>> > >>> -anupam > >>> > >>> On Thu, Jun 4, 2009 at 2:19 PM, Pawan Durani > >>> wrote: > >>> > >>> > "effect of Hafiz Sayed being set free in Pakistan" > >>> > > >>> > June 2, 2009 > >>> > > >>> > > >>> > The United States Mission in India wishes to *urgently *remind all > U.S. > >>> > citizens resident in or traveling to India that there is a high > threat > >>> from > >>> > terrorism throughout India. As terror attacks are a serious and > >>> > growing > >>> > threat, U.S. citizens are urged to always practice good security, > >>> including > >>> > maintaining a heightened situational awareness and a low profile. > >>> > Americans > >>> > in India should be vigilant at all times and monitor local news > reports > >>> and > >>> > vary their routes and times in carrying out daily activities. > >>> > Americans > >>> > should consider the level of security present when visiting public > >>> places, > >>> > including religious sites, or choosing hotels, restaurants, > >>> entertainment > >>> > and recreation venues. > >>> > > >>> > For the latest security information, Americans traveling abroad > should > >>> > regularly monitor the Department's Internet web site at > >>> > http://travel.state.gov where the current Worldwide Caution, Travel > >>> > Warnings, and Travel Alerts can be found. Up-to-date information on > >>> > security > >>> > can also be obtained by calling 1-888-407-4747 toll free in the > United > >>> > States and Canada or, for callers outside the United States and > Canada, > >>> a > >>> > regular toll line at 1-202-501-4444. These numbers are available from > >>> 8:00 > >>> > a.m. to 8:00 p.m. Eastern Time, Monday through Friday (except U.S. > >>> federal > >>> > holidays). Americans are also encouraged to read the Country Specific > >>> > Information for India, available on the Embassy's website at > >>> > http://newdelhi.usembassy.gov, and also at http://travel.state.gov. > >>> > > >>> > U.S. citizens living or traveling abroad are encouraged to register > >>> > with > >>> > the > >>> > nearest U.S. Embassy or Consulate through the State Department's > travel > >>> > registration web site at > >>> > https://travelregistration.state.gov/ibrs/ui/so > >>> > that they can obtain updated information on travel and security. > >>> Americans > >>> > without Internet access may register directly with the nearest U.S. > >>> Embassy > >>> > or Consulate. By registering, American citizens make it easier for > the > >>> > Embassy or Consulate to contact them in case of emergency. For > >>> additional > >>> > information, please refer to "A Safe Trip Abroad" found at > >>> > http://travel.state.gov. > >>> > > >>> > U.S. citizens may contact the American Citizens Services Unit of the > >>> > Embassy > >>> > or the Consulates General for further information: > >>> > > >>> > -- The U.S. Embassy in New Delhi is located at Shanti Path, Chanakya > >>> Puri > >>> > 110021; telephone +91-11-2419-8000; fax +91-11-2419-8407. The > Embassy's > >>> > Internet home page address is http://newdelhi.usembassy.gov. > >>> > > >>> > -- The U.S. Consulate General in Mumbai (Bombay) is located at > Lincoln > >>> > House, 78 Bhulabhai Desai Road, 400026, telephone +91-22-2363-3611; > fax > >>> > +91-22-2363-0350. The Internet home page address is > >>> > http://mumbai.usconsulate.gov. > >>> > > >>> > -- The U.S. Consulate General in Chennai (Madras) is at 220 Anna > Salai, > >>> > Gemini Circle, 600006, telephone +91-44-2857-4000; fax > >>> > +91-44-2811-2027. > >>> > The > >>> > Internet home page address is http://chennai.usconsulate.gov. > >>> > > >>> > -- The U.S. Consulate General in Kolkata (Calcutta) is at 5/1 Ho Chi > >>> Minh > >>> > Sarani, 700071; telephone +91-33-3984-2400; fax +91-33-2282-2335. The > >>> > Internet home page address is http://kolkata.usconsulate.gov. > >>> > > >>> > > >>> > -- The U.S. Consulate General in Hyderabad is at Paigah Palace, > >>> > 1-8-323, > >>> > Chiran Fort Lane, Begumpet, Secunderabad 500 003; telephone: +91 (40) > >>> > 4033-8300. The Internet home page address is > >>> > http://hyderabad.usconsulate.gov. > >>> > _________________________________________ > >>> > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > >>> > Critiques & Collaborations > >>> > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > >>> > subscribe in the subject header. > >>> > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > >>> > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> > >>> _________________________________________ > >>> reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > >>> Critiques & Collaborations > >>> To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > >>> subscribe in the subject header. > >>> To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > >>> List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> > >> > >> > >> > > _________________________________________ > > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > > Critiques & Collaborations > > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > subscribe > > in the subject header. > > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> > From rajen786uppinangady at gmail.com Fri Jun 5 12:55:05 2009 From: rajen786uppinangady at gmail.com (Rajendra Bhat Uppinangadi) Date: Fri, 5 Jun 2009 12:55:05 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] =?windows-1252?q?=91As_Hindus=2C_We_Were_Expected_T?= =?windows-1252?q?o_Further_The_Cause_With_Our_Stories=92?= In-Reply-To: <9A178570-2300-4D9B-9424-AB43553542F2@sarai.net> References: <5c5369880906032322h52bc9d5fwb1a3953cf94096af@mail.gmail.com> <6353c690906040418j17f44fe4q2ad526a3b4af6eff@mail.gmail.com> <9A178570-2300-4D9B-9424-AB43553542F2@sarai.net> Message-ID: <7271ec560906050025v3e6602ecua0c018757037069a@mail.gmail.com> Dear Sir, In all walks of life, we see the blacksheep in guise of professionals, journalists are no exception just as judiciary and bureaucracy, who have license to journalistic freedom of expression to use it for personal gains, this surmise is primarily because the lady in question, questions the awards extended to other journalists in her first para and then imagination runs wild as if she is only the chosen writer, honest reporter, which is betrayed by her rumblings as if the agitators were burning the trucks when all the reporters were in favour of NOT, repeat, not reporting such acts of vandalism.? And the post by the honoured Sanjay Kak is known for partisan approach, lacks the force in convincing the reader. There are enough human right activists, we can also call them "loose chaddi pink socialites," who seem to be more particular about the rights of the inhumans who indulge in perpetuating miseries on other lives in society, with fanatism for faith, caste and religion.These activists forget about the rights of the victims, come and obstruct rule of laws with high dramatics in front of law enforcing authorities.Investigations are subverted and prosecutions are delayed by these so called activists and truth never is known to the citizens in the society. That the NGOs work with vested interest , atleast most of them is clear for citizens, in many supreme court judgements, the worst exampe is of Kudremukh iron ore Co;where supreme court went ahead and stoppd operations of this PSU, thus rendering about 30,000 families jobless and clueless about their future, thanks to the NGO and its fervent funds based misinformation campaign, inspite of good work of afforestation by the PSU., complying with all conditions laid by the authorities. The NGO and its talking head, who was just running around with a katara scooter now zooms in a deluxe skoda.! So much about social activism of NGOs and the vested interest in action thru NGOs. But not all NGOs are that bad, many do yeoman service, albeit quietly, without much fanfare, thus proving that there are many who like to be in studios for personal glories rather than service to humanity.None need to be surprise if they find this reporter in one of the tv studios shortly on way to be being a celebrity. Regards, Rajen. "Notice, that once again, no effort is made by those on this list who are heaping abuse on Simple Pani to rebut the arguments or observations made by her on their own merit. All that is done is a blanket denial of any credibility simply on the grounds that a different voice has made itself heard. And that voice is given the distinction of treason. She is all the more dangerous because she is not the notional other. First we heard - from the partisans of the Amarnath agitation - "no one knows what is going on in Jammu, because none of the people criticising the Amarnath agitation are in Jammu". Now, that we have heard from someone who was in Jammu in that critical period, she must be discredited on specious grounds that have nothing to do with what she has said." On Fri, Jun 5, 2009 at 2:12 AM, Shuddhabrata Sengupta wrote: > Dear all, > > I find it surprising how any expression of difference with the > received wisdom of what exactly happened in Jammu during the days of > the Amarnath agitation last year must be treated with this kind of > callous and ad hominem attack. And since when do journalistic ethics > include an endorsement of covering up the reality of the reporter's > own experiences. I think the journalist in question has displayed a > rare courage in breaking ranks and talking about the reality of the > atmosphere of a news room as she saw it through a crisis situation. I > wish there were more, not less people like her, in every newspaper > and magazine. > > Notice, that once again, no effort is made by those on this list who > are heaping abuse on Simple Pani to rebut the arguments or > observations made by her on their own merit. All that is done is a > blanket denial of any credibility simply on the grounds that a > different voice has made itself heard. And that voice is given the > distinction of treason. She is all the more dangerous because she is > not the notional other. First we heard - from the partisans of the > Amarnath agitation - "no one knows what is going on in Jammu, because > none of the people criticising the Amarnath agitation are in Jammu". > Now, that we have heard from someone who was in Jammu in that > critical period, she must be discredited on specious grounds that > have nothing to do with what she has said. > > A loud voice does not make for a sound argument. > > best > > Shuddha > > > On 04-Jun-09, at 4:48 PM, Aditya Raj Kaul wrote: > > > Wonder how many days the so called "ïnsider" has worked in Jammu. > > Sitting in > > the air conditioned office and filing stories is an altogether > > different > > deal. She seems to have not left the four walls or else confined > > herself to > > Orissa. > > > > The Jammu based media friends deny this allegation. This includes her > > colleagues in the newspaper she worked for. > > > > The National media was anyway openly biased against the Jammu > > agitation > > against religious propaganda initiated by PDP and separatist elements. > > > > Simple M Pani should join Kak 'sahab' in documentary making. The > > "valuable > > insider account" (well thought, infact) may just lead to another > > well funded > > propaganda masala movie. > > Such immature tales put the media to shame. Horrible. > > > > > > > > On Thu, Jun 4, 2009 at 11:52 AM, Sanjay Kak > > wrote: > > > >> As an 'insider' account of the workings of India's mainstream press, > >> and its professionalism and politics, this is a most valuable > >> account. > >> Best > >> Sanjay Kak > >> > >> > >> From Tehelka Magazine, Vol 6, Issue 22, Dated Jun 06, 2009 > >> CULTURE & SOCIETY > >> personal histories > >> > >> ‘As Hindus, We Were Expected To Further The Cause With Our Stories’ > >> > >> Simple M Pani > >> Is 32. She is a journalist based in New Delhi > >> > >> Illustration: UZMA MOHSIN > >> > >> EVERY YEAR, I look starry-eyed at the awardees of the Ramnath Goenka > >> Excellence in Journalism Awards and at the stalwarts handing over the > >> honours. For grit, hard work, tenacity and honesty to the trade, > >> without a care for reward, getting richly rewarded. But this year, I > >> couldn’t quell a queasy feeling in my stomach when the virtues of > >> fair > >> reporting were spoken about at the event. This has been happening > >> since the Amarnath land agitation, when I was reporting for the Jammu > >> bureau of a leading national daily. It visited Jammu like a gale, > >> sweeping away in gusts the sense of fair play and discrimination of > >> many scribes. In our morning meetings, it was assumed as a given that > >> being Hindus, we (reporters, photojournalists and other staff) > >> supported the agitation for restoration of land to the Amarnath > >> Shrine > >> Board. Not only were we expected to support it whole-heartedly but it > >> was considered our ‘moral’ duty to further its cause through our > >> stories. It was routine for our editor to ask, “So how is the > >> agitation faring in xyz place?” and an over-zealous colleague to > >> answer passionately, “Excellent. It’s got a tremendous response > >> there” > >> and for the editor to rub his chin and say, “But find out what > >> challenges they are facing in abc place and how it could be > >> strengthened there.” If you were in Jammu, you had to sing paeans to > >> the agitators. What smacked of fascism was that no other line of > >> thinking, let alone criticism of any sort, was brooked. The few media > >> houses that did judge it critically, were a woeful minority. > >> > >> Two quixotic features of the agitation stood out. First, to refuse to > >> recognise the real. To pretend not to see something as stark as an > >> economic blockade of the Valley, imposed by the stone-pelting > >> agitators by attacking and burning Valley-bound trucks. (I’ve seen > >> trucks burnt to rubble by agitators, on the Jammu-Pathankote National > >> Highway, but naturally, it wasn’t considered newsworthy in several > >> publications because the Jammu media had decided there was no > >> blockade. This assumption ruled out any question of trucks being > >> attacked.) This kind of dangerous, deductive logic crafting an > >> alternative reality was rampant at the time. The storyline would be > >> decided in the office and reporters would be asked to select data > >> from > >> the field to support it. For instance, to prove the nonexistence of a > >> blockade, we would be asked to report that medicines were > >> available in > >> plenty in Jammu. If there were a blockade, then Jammu would be > >> equally > >> hit, ran the specious logic. In reality, Jammu faced a severe > >> shortage > >> of medicines! > >> > >> Second, to fancy the unreal as real, by drawing parallels between > >> itself and the India’s Freedom Movement. Like praising the Emperor’s > >> new clothes, which despite any empirical reality, were extolled to > >> the > >> skies. Eulogies of “those brave, nationalist, heroes,” the agitators, > >> who went about uprooting railway tracks, smashing windows of public > >> transport that dared to ply on the roads in defiance of the bandh > >> call, and violently attacking trucks entering the state, filled reams > >> of newsprint every day. Strangely, the mute common man of Jammu, the > >> poor news vendor and hawker on the streets seemed to be more > >> discerning than the city’s intelligentsia. They knew that there was > >> much more to nationalism than flag-waving xenophobia. That sporting a > >> ‘Bhagat Singh moustache’ wasn’t enough to equate one with the martyr. > >> They knew that vandalism couldn’t pass for bravery and that they > >> would > >> have to repay the loss caused to the state from their pockets; all of > >> which the intelligentsia missed, in a misplaced fervour. > >> > >> Despite the claim that the struggle was solely for the restoration of > >> land to the Amarnath Shrine Board, the fact is it did degenerate into > >> hate for the ‘other.’ Gujjars’ kullas were burnt in hundreds. The > >> word > >> “Kashmir” was knocked off from the Kashmir Square Mall, a Delhi-style > >> mall in town, and was rechristened ‘City Square Mall.’ Such > >> sentiments > >> are dangerous for any civilised society, more so when the media, the > >> supposed watchdog of liberal values, is gung-ho about it. > >> > >> From Tehelka Magazine, Vol 6, Issue 22, Dated Jun 06, 2009 > >> _________________________________________ > >> reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > >> Critiques & Collaborations > >> To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > >> subscribe in the subject header. > >> To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > >> List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> > > > > > > > > > > -- > > Aditya Raj Kaul > > > > Freelance Correspondent, The Times of India > > Cell - +91-9873297834 > > > > Blog: http://activistsdiary.blogspot.com/ > > _________________________________________ > > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > > Critiques & Collaborations > > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > > subscribe in the subject header. > > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> > > Shuddhabrata Sengupta > The Sarai Programme at CSDS > Raqs Media Collective > shuddha at sarai.net > www.sarai.net > www.raqsmediacollective.net > > > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > subscribe in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> > -- Rajen. From rajen786uppinangady at gmail.com Fri Jun 5 13:05:47 2009 From: rajen786uppinangady at gmail.com (Rajendra Bhat Uppinangadi) Date: Fri, 5 Jun 2009 13:05:47 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Urgent Warden Message In-Reply-To: <6b79f1a70906040833l1f627773q3b40033ffa0c712d@mail.gmail.com> References: <6b79f1a70906040149o484ffff1j32fa23f2d04fb5cc@mail.gmail.com> <341380d00906040823m79f3a905r279650ecb1b2f731@mail.gmail.com> <6b79f1a70906040833l1f627773q3b40033ffa0c712d@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <7271ec560906050035l1c0fa521r6887c9faac8889fc@mail.gmail.com> Dear all, it is the duty of the system of governance to caution its citizens who travel to different destinations of the possible perils in those destinations. It is neither to create scare nor to discourage them from such travels, but it is forewarned who is forearmed. Unlike the system of governance of this nation, where students migrate to Australia, the system never even informs them of possible attacks on any basis, race, hate or gadgets, money flashing by the students which renders them clueless when such miseries are thrust upon them. A group of technicians and actors from India, in US were making a lots of noises in the bus that they were travelling on to the location, were detained as the authorities could not understand a word they were talking in the regional language in such loud voices, the commotion in mallu language created by these, alarmed the law enforcing authorities in US. But our system does not even inform the travellers to behave and it is common sense that is acking in our many tourists who think that having visited "foreign" locations they have won the world.! Regards, Rajen. On Thu, Jun 4, 2009 at 9:03 PM, Pawan Durani wrote: > Dear Anupam , > > Thank you for pointing out that i suffer from Paranoia. It was quite a > polite way to argue. > > Going forward , there would be many citizens of US who may be subscribed to > reader list and may be interested in knowing what their Govt advises them. > > After 26/11 , we live in a victory syndrome of having got over the attack > on > Mumbai , however I am sure US intelligence would have given their Govt much > valuable feedback as well and we must not neglect how a foreign nation > advises its citizen about travelling to our country. > > Wishes > > Pawan > > > > > On Thu, Jun 4, 2009 at 8:53 PM, anupam chakravartty >wrote: > > > dear pawan, > > > > FYI, this is a form of general warning issued since 2001 after 9/11 > > attacks. > > i think Pawan you suffer bouts of paranoia on behalf of Americans. here i > > am > > NOT trying to defend hafiz sayeed's freedom but please stop creating an > > unneccesary state of fear in the reader list. > > > > can the moderator be slightly more responsible here? > > > > -anupam > > > > On Thu, Jun 4, 2009 at 2:19 PM, Pawan Durani > > wrote: > > > > > "effect of Hafiz Sayed being set free in Pakistan" > > > > > > June 2, 2009 > > > > > > > > > The United States Mission in India wishes to *urgently *remind all U.S. > > > citizens resident in or traveling to India that there is a high threat > > from > > > terrorism throughout India. As terror attacks are a serious and > growing > > > threat, U.S. citizens are urged to always practice good security, > > including > > > maintaining a heightened situational awareness and a low profile. > > > Americans > > > in India should be vigilant at all times and monitor local news reports > > and > > > vary their routes and times in carrying out daily activities. > Americans > > > should consider the level of security present when visiting public > > places, > > > including religious sites, or choosing hotels, restaurants, > entertainment > > > and recreation venues. > > > > > > For the latest security information, Americans traveling abroad should > > > regularly monitor the Department's Internet web site at > > > http://travel.state.gov where the current Worldwide Caution, Travel > > > Warnings, and Travel Alerts can be found. Up-to-date information on > > > security > > > can also be obtained by calling 1-888-407-4747 toll free in the United > > > States and Canada or, for callers outside the United States and Canada, > a > > > regular toll line at 1-202-501-4444. These numbers are available from > > 8:00 > > > a.m. to 8:00 p.m. Eastern Time, Monday through Friday (except U.S. > > federal > > > holidays). Americans are also encouraged to read the Country Specific > > > Information for India, available on the Embassy's website at > > > http://newdelhi.usembassy.gov, and also at http://travel.state.gov. > > > > > > U.S. citizens living or traveling abroad are encouraged to register > with > > > the > > > nearest U.S. Embassy or Consulate through the State Department's travel > > > registration web site at > https://travelregistration.state.gov/ibrs/ui/so > > > that they can obtain updated information on travel and security. > > Americans > > > without Internet access may register directly with the nearest U.S. > > Embassy > > > or Consulate. By registering, American citizens make it easier for the > > > Embassy or Consulate to contact them in case of emergency. For > additional > > > information, please refer to "A Safe Trip Abroad" found at > > > http://travel.state.gov. > > > > > > U.S. citizens may contact the American Citizens Services Unit of the > > > Embassy > > > or the Consulates General for further information: > > > > > > -- The U.S. Embassy in New Delhi is located at Shanti Path, Chanakya > Puri > > > 110021; telephone +91-11-2419-8000; fax +91-11-2419-8407. The Embassy's > > > Internet home page address is http://newdelhi.usembassy.gov. > > > > > > -- The U.S. Consulate General in Mumbai (Bombay) is located at Lincoln > > > House, 78 Bhulabhai Desai Road, 400026, telephone +91-22-2363-3611; fax > > > +91-22-2363-0350. The Internet home page address is > > > http://mumbai.usconsulate.gov. > > > > > > -- The U.S. Consulate General in Chennai (Madras) is at 220 Anna Salai, > > > Gemini Circle, 600006, telephone +91-44-2857-4000; fax > +91-44-2811-2027. > > > The > > > Internet home page address is http://chennai.usconsulate.gov. > > > > > > -- The U.S. Consulate General in Kolkata (Calcutta) is at 5/1 Ho Chi > Minh > > > Sarani, 700071; telephone +91-33-3984-2400; fax +91-33-2282-2335. The > > > Internet home page address is http://kolkata.usconsulate.gov. > > > > > > > > > -- The U.S. Consulate General in Hyderabad is at Paigah Palace, > 1-8-323, > > > Chiran Fort Lane, Begumpet, Secunderabad 500 003; telephone: +91 (40) > > > 4033-8300. The Internet home page address is > > > http://hyderabad.usconsulate.gov. > > > _________________________________________ > > > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > > > Critiques & Collaborations > > > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > > > subscribe in the subject header. > > > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > > > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> > > _________________________________________ > > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > > Critiques & Collaborations > > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > > subscribe in the subject header. > > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > subscribe in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> > -- Rajen. From c.anupam at gmail.com Fri Jun 5 13:24:26 2009 From: c.anupam at gmail.com (anupam chakravartty) Date: Fri, 5 Jun 2009 13:24:26 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Urgent Warden Message In-Reply-To: <7271ec560906050035l1c0fa521r6887c9faac8889fc@mail.gmail.com> References: <6b79f1a70906040149o484ffff1j32fa23f2d04fb5cc@mail.gmail.com> <341380d00906040823m79f3a905r279650ecb1b2f731@mail.gmail.com> <6b79f1a70906040833l1f627773q3b40033ffa0c712d@mail.gmail.com> <7271ec560906050035l1c0fa521r6887c9faac8889fc@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <341380d00906050054n34f65e1dhd6649916dfcebf91@mail.gmail.com> Dear Rajen, Let us be specific here. We are not discussing about cultural ignorances, we are talking about terror threats. these were issue way back in 2001. americans are reiterating this means that there is a possibility of a strike. however, our most learned friend Pawan has linked it up to the release of Hafiz Sayeed, someone who was arrested for conspiring 26/11. instead of supplying the evidences he went on to say that "effect of Hafiz Sayeed being released in Pakistan" and then citing the US warning to its nationals. if there is any link to these things, it must come up..you cannot just issue statements such as "anupam you need a break" and other stuff. do you get what i am saying? are you trying to perpetuate the situation of panic created by these terror groups? that's my question to Pawan and the american establishment as a whole. if yes give evidences. our business (remember the nuke deal) brings a lot of americans to this country. i am sure you dont want to see them fleeing the country. on second thoughts, for tour operators it has devastating effect as they thrive on foreign tourists. also if it is such a super confidential intelligence input which this kind of a message for its citizens, then at least they must be reasonable? they should cite where the threat is from? warnings have to be specific. thanks anupam On 6/5/09, Rajendra Bhat Uppinangadi wrote: > > Dear all, > > it is the duty of the system of governance to caution its citizens who > travel to different destinations of the possible perils in those > destinations. It is neither to create scare nor to discourage them from such > travels, but it is forewarned who is forearmed. Unlike the system of > governance of this nation, where students migrate to Australia, the system > never even informs them of possible attacks on any basis, race, hate or > gadgets, money flashing by the students which renders them clueless when > such miseries are thrust upon them. A group of technicians and actors from > India, in US were making a lots of noises in the bus that they were > travelling on to the location, were detained as the authorities could not > understand a word they were talking in the regional language in such loud > voices, the commotion in mallu language created by these, alarmed the law > enforcing authorities in US. But our system does not even inform the > travellers to behave and it is common sense that is acking in our many > tourists who think that having visited "foreign" locations they have won > the world.! > > Regards, > > Rajen. > > On Thu, Jun 4, 2009 at 9:03 PM, Pawan Durani wrote: > >> Dear Anupam , >> >> Thank you for pointing out that i suffer from Paranoia. It was quite a >> polite way to argue. >> >> Going forward , there would be many citizens of US who may be subscribed >> to >> reader list and may be interested in knowing what their Govt advises them. >> >> After 26/11 , we live in a victory syndrome of having got over the attack >> on >> Mumbai , however I am sure US intelligence would have given their Govt >> much >> valuable feedback as well and we must not neglect how a foreign nation >> advises its citizen about travelling to our country. >> >> Wishes >> >> Pawan >> >> >> >> >> On Thu, Jun 4, 2009 at 8:53 PM, anupam chakravartty > >wrote: >> >> > dear pawan, >> > >> > FYI, this is a form of general warning issued since 2001 after 9/11 >> > attacks. >> > i think Pawan you suffer bouts of paranoia on behalf of Americans. here >> i >> > am >> > NOT trying to defend hafiz sayeed's freedom but please stop creating an >> > unneccesary state of fear in the reader list. >> > >> > can the moderator be slightly more responsible here? >> > >> > -anupam >> > >> > On Thu, Jun 4, 2009 at 2:19 PM, Pawan Durani >> > wrote: >> > >> > > "effect of Hafiz Sayed being set free in Pakistan" >> > > >> > > June 2, 2009 >> > > >> > > >> > > The United States Mission in India wishes to *urgently *remind all >> U.S. >> > > citizens resident in or traveling to India that there is a high threat >> > from >> > > terrorism throughout India. As terror attacks are a serious and >> growing >> > > threat, U.S. citizens are urged to always practice good security, >> > including >> > > maintaining a heightened situational awareness and a low profile. >> > > Americans >> > > in India should be vigilant at all times and monitor local news >> reports >> > and >> > > vary their routes and times in carrying out daily activities. >> Americans >> > > should consider the level of security present when visiting public >> > places, >> > > including religious sites, or choosing hotels, restaurants, >> entertainment >> > > and recreation venues. >> > > >> > > For the latest security information, Americans traveling abroad should >> > > regularly monitor the Department's Internet web site at >> > > http://travel.state.gov where the current Worldwide Caution, Travel >> > > Warnings, and Travel Alerts can be found. Up-to-date information on >> > > security >> > > can also be obtained by calling 1-888-407-4747 toll free in the United >> > > States and Canada or, for callers outside the United States and >> Canada, a >> > > regular toll line at 1-202-501-4444. These numbers are available from >> > 8:00 >> > > a.m. to 8:00 p.m. Eastern Time, Monday through Friday (except U.S. >> > federal >> > > holidays). Americans are also encouraged to read the Country Specific >> > > Information for India, available on the Embassy's website at >> > > http://newdelhi.usembassy.gov, and also at http://travel.state.gov. >> > > >> > > U.S. citizens living or traveling abroad are encouraged to register >> with >> > > the >> > > nearest U.S. Embassy or Consulate through the State Department's >> travel >> > > registration web site at >> https://travelregistration.state.gov/ibrs/ui/so >> > > that they can obtain updated information on travel and security. >> > Americans >> > > without Internet access may register directly with the nearest U.S. >> > Embassy >> > > or Consulate. By registering, American citizens make it easier for the >> > > Embassy or Consulate to contact them in case of emergency. For >> additional >> > > information, please refer to "A Safe Trip Abroad" found at >> > > http://travel.state.gov. >> > > >> > > U.S. citizens may contact the American Citizens Services Unit of the >> > > Embassy >> > > or the Consulates General for further information: >> > > >> > > -- The U.S. Embassy in New Delhi is located at Shanti Path, Chanakya >> Puri >> > > 110021; telephone +91-11-2419-8000; fax +91-11-2419-8407. The >> Embassy's >> > > Internet home page address is http://newdelhi.usembassy.gov. >> > > >> > > -- The U.S. Consulate General in Mumbai (Bombay) is located at Lincoln >> > > House, 78 Bhulabhai Desai Road, 400026, telephone +91-22-2363-3611; >> fax >> > > +91-22-2363-0350. The Internet home page address is >> > > http://mumbai.usconsulate.gov. >> > > >> > > -- The U.S. Consulate General in Chennai (Madras) is at 220 Anna >> Salai, >> > > Gemini Circle, 600006, telephone +91-44-2857-4000; fax >> +91-44-2811-2027. >> > > The >> > > Internet home page address is http://chennai.usconsulate.gov. >> > > >> > > -- The U.S. Consulate General in Kolkata (Calcutta) is at 5/1 Ho Chi >> Minh >> > > Sarani, 700071; telephone +91-33-3984-2400; fax +91-33-2282-2335. The >> > > Internet home page address is http://kolkata.usconsulate.gov. >> > > >> > > >> > > -- The U.S. Consulate General in Hyderabad is at Paigah Palace, >> 1-8-323, >> > > Chiran Fort Lane, Begumpet, Secunderabad 500 003; telephone: +91 (40) >> > > 4033-8300. The Internet home page address is >> > > http://hyderabad.usconsulate.gov. >> > > _________________________________________ >> > > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. >> > > Critiques & Collaborations >> > > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with >> > > subscribe in the subject header. >> > > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list >> > > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> >> > _________________________________________ >> > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. >> > Critiques & Collaborations >> > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with >> > subscribe in the subject header. >> > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list >> > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> >> _________________________________________ >> reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. >> Critiques & Collaborations >> To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with >> subscribe in the subject header. >> To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list >> List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> >> > > > > -- > Rajen. > > From rajen786uppinangady at gmail.com Fri Jun 5 13:35:52 2009 From: rajen786uppinangady at gmail.com (Rajendra Bhat Uppinangadi) Date: Fri, 5 Jun 2009 13:35:52 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Obama's in Cairo In-Reply-To: <95DC1C6F-A8FE-4BAA-9895-C60B3A78EC42@sarai.net> References: <96c0bb200906040732u110e59batd12a4dadf5e30b3d@mail.gmail.com> <95DC1C6F-A8FE-4BAA-9895-C60B3A78EC42@sarai.net> Message-ID: <7271ec560906050105u103488f1y4bbbfc9565ec59c2@mail.gmail.com> Dear all, what was most impressive in the talk of Barak Obama, president of US. ? For one, the sincerity and honest commitment to the world that he would not be policeman nation to the comity of the nations, was good one, secondly, his frank admission that military power in action in the nations that US chose to rectify into democracies is no solution for such malady of those nations. This is particularly touching because few days ago, Tony Blair, ex Prime minister was frank, being devout, THAT HE WAS INSPIRED FOR he was on crusade in these countries that he used the armed forces of the UK. What is of more interest is efforts of US to involve India and possibly make efforts to put Indian army on peacekeeping mission in Afghanistahan and Iraq, as US has a honest PM in India, who was on its rolls as world bank executive who unashamedly told the nation and Mr. Bush that indians love mr. Bush.! With honest PM using dishonest means and loosing the trust of the nation in winning vote on N-deal, it is no surprise if the netas decide to depute armed forces to Iraq or Afghanistan for this "peace keeping" as the loss is not for the netas, only to the grieving wives, mothers and children of those soldiers, who obey and never question such orders. If at all such decision is taken by this honest PM, I would strongly protest such move as no nation has won a war going to another territory and nation, Srilanka lesson is not to be forgotten. Regards, Rajen. On Thu, Jun 4, 2009 at 10:32 PM, Monica Narula wrote: > Despite the president's soaring speech on partnering with the world, > one foreign-policy expert sees globalization splintering the Arab > Islamic world — to the tune of an Israeli air strike, Saudi-Iranian > proxy wars, more nuclear weapons, and Obama's tough re-election battle > in 2012. > > http://www.esquire.com/the-side/war-room/obama-cairo-speech-060409 > > Monica Narula > Raqs Media Collective > Sarai-CSDS > www.raqsmediacollective.net > www.sarai.net > > > > On 04-Jun-09, at 8:02 PM, faiz ullah wrote: > > > From The US Consulate.. > > > > > > > > 009 > > > > *REMARKS OF PRESIDENT BARACK OBAMA* > > > > *A New Beginning* > > > > *Cairo**, Egypt* > > > > *June 4, 2009* > > > > I am honored to be in the timeless city of Cairo, and to be hosted > > by two > > remarkable institutions. For over a thousand years, Al-Azhar has > > stood as a > > beacon of Islamic learning, and for over a century, Cairo University > > has > > been a source of Egypt’s advancement. Together, you represent the > > harmony > > between tradition and progress. I am grateful for your hospitality, > > and the > > hospitality of the people of Egypt. I am also proud to carry with me > > the > > goodwill of the American people, and a greeting of peace from Muslim > > communities in my country:* assalaamu alaykum*. > > > > We meet at a time of tension between the United States and > > Muslims > > around the world – tension rooted in historical forces that go > > beyond any > > current policy debate. The relationship between Islam and the West > > includes > > centuries of co-existence and cooperation, but also conflict and > > religious > > wars. More recently, tension has been fed by colonialism that denied > > rights > > and opportunities to many Muslims, and a Cold War in which Muslim- > > majority > > countries were too often treated as proxies without regard to their > > own > > aspirations. Moreover, the sweeping change brought by modernity and > > globalization led many Muslims to view the West as hostile to the > > traditions > > of Islam. > > > > Violent extremists have exploited these tensions in a small but > > potent minority of Muslims. The attacks of September 11th, 2001 and > > the > > continued efforts of these extremists to engage in violence against > > civilians has led some in my country to view Islam as inevitably > > hostile not > > only to America and Western countries, but also to human rights. > > This has > > bred more fear and mistrust. > > > > So long as our relationship is defined by our differences, we > > will > > empower those who sow hatred rather than peace, and who promote > > conflict > > rather than the cooperation that can help all of our people achieve > > justice > > and prosperity. This cycle of suspicion and discord must end. > > > > I have come here to seek a new beginning between the United > > States > > and Muslims around the world; one based upon mutual interest and > > mutual > > respect; and one based upon the truth that America and Islam are not > > exclusive, and need not be in competition. Instead, they overlap, > > and share > > common principles – principles of justice and progress; tolerance > > and the > > dignity of all human beings. > > > > I do so recognizing that change cannot happen overnight. No > > single > > speech can eradicate years of mistrust, nor can I answer in the time > > that I > > have all the complex questions that brought us to this point. But I am > > convinced that in order to move forward, we must say openly the > > things we > > hold in our hearts, and that too often are said only behind closed > > doors. > > There must be a sustained effort to listen to each other; to learn > > from each > > other; to respect one another; and to seek common ground. As the > > Holy Koran > > tells us, “Be conscious of God and speak always the truth.” That is > > what I > > will try to do – to speak the truth as best I can, humbled by the task > > before us, and firm in my belief that the interests we share as > > human beings > > are far more powerful than the forces that drive us apart. > > > > Part of this conviction is rooted in my own experience. I am a > > Christian, but my father came from a Kenyan family that includes > > generations > > of Muslims. As a boy, I spent several years in Indonesia and heard > > the call > > of the* azaan* at the break of dawn and the fall of dusk. As a young > > man, I > > worked in Chicago communities where many found dignity and peace in > > their > > Muslim faith. > > > > As a student of history, I also know civilization’s debt to > > Islam. > > It was Islam – at places like Al-Azhar University – that carried the > > light > > of learning through so many centuries, paving the way for Europe’s > > Renaissance and Enlightenment. It was innovation in Muslim > > communities that > > developed the order of algebra; our magnetic compass and tools of > > navigation; our mastery of pens and printing; our understanding of how > > disease spreads and how it can be healed. Islamic culture has given us > > majestic arches and soaring spires; timeless poetry and cherished > > music; > > elegant calligraphy and places of peaceful contemplation. And > > throughout > > history, Islam has demonstrated through words and deeds the > > possibilities of > > religious tolerance and racial equality. > > > > I know, too, that Islam has always been a part of America’s > > story. > > The first nation to recognize my country was Morocco. In signing the > > Treaty > > of Tripoli in 1796, our second President John Adams wrote, "The United > > States has in itself no character of enmity against the laws, > > religion or > > tranquility of Muslims." And since our founding, American Muslims have > > enriched the United States. They have fought in our wars, served in > > government, stood for civil rights, started businesses, taught at our > > Universities, excelled in our sports arenas, won Nobel Prizes, built > > our > > tallest building, and lit the Olympic Torch. And when the first > > Muslim-American was recently elected to Congress, he took the oath > > to defend > > our Constitution using the same Holy Koran that one of our Founding > > Fathers > > – Thomas Jefferson – kept in his personal library. > > > > So I have known Islam on three continents before coming to the > > region where it was first revealed. That experience guides my > > conviction > > that partnership between America and Islam must be based on what > > Islam is, > > not what it isn’t. And I consider it part of my responsibility as > > President > > of the United States to fight against negative stereotypes of Islam > > wherever > > they appear. > > > > But that same principle must apply to Muslim perceptions of > > America. > > Just as Muslims do not fit a crude stereotype, America is not the > > crude > > stereotype of a self-interested empire. The United States has been > > one of > > the greatest sources of progress that the world has ever known. We > > were born > > out of revolution against an empire. We were founded upon the ideal > > that all > > are created equal, and we have shed blood and struggled for > > centuries to > > give meaning to those words – within our borders, and around the > > world. We > > are shaped by every culture, drawn from every end of the Earth, and > > dedicated to a simple concept:* E pluribus unum*: "Out of many, one." > > > > Much has been made of the fact that an African-American with > > the > > name Barack Hussein Obama could be elected President. But my > > personal story > > is not so unique. The dream of opportunity for all people has not > > come true > > for everyone in America, but its promise exists for all who come to > > our > > shores – that includes nearly seven million American Muslims in our > > country > > today who enjoy incomes and education that are higher than average. > > > > Moreover, freedom in America is indivisible from the freedom to > > practice one’s religion. That is why there is a mosque in every > > state of our > > union, and over 1,200 mosques within our borders. That is why the U.S. > > government has gone to court to protect the right of women and girls > > to wear > > the* hijab,* and to punish those who would deny it. > > > > So let there be no doubt: Islam is a part of America. And I > > believe > > that America holds within her the truth that regardless of race, > > religion, > > or station in life, all of us share common aspirations – to live in > > peace > > and security; to get an education and to work with dignity; to love > > our > > families, our communities, and our God. These things we share. This > > is the > > hope of all humanity. > > > > Of course, recognizing our common humanity is only the > > beginning of > > our task. Words alone cannot meet the needs of our people. These > > needs will > > be met only if we act boldly in the years ahead; and if we > > understand that > > the challenges we face are shared, and our failure to meet them will > > hurt us > > all. > > > > For we have learned from recent experience that when a > > financial > > system weakens in one country, prosperity is hurt everywhere. When a > > new flu > > infects one human being, all are at risk. When one nation pursues a > > nuclear > > weapon, the risk of nuclear attack rises for all nations. When violent > > extremists operate in one stretch of mountains, people are > > endangered across > > an ocean. And when innocents in Bosnia and Darfur are slaughtered, > > that is a > > stain on our collective conscience. That is what it means to share > > this > > world in the 21st century. That is the responsibility we have to one > > another > > as human beings. > > > > This is a difficult responsibility to embrace. For human > > history has > > often been a record of nations and tribes subjugating one another to > > serve > > their own interests. Yet in this new age, such attitudes are self- > > defeating. > > Given our interdependence, any world order that elevates one nation > > or group > > of people over another will inevitably fail. So whatever we think of > > the > > past, we must not be prisoners of it. Our problems must be dealt with > > through partnership; progress must be shared. > > > > That does not mean we should ignore sources of tension. > > Indeed, it > > suggests the opposite: we must face these tensions squarely. And so > > in that > > spirit, let me speak as clearly and plainly as I can about some > > specific > > issues that I believe we must finally confront together. > > > > The first issue that we have to confront is violent extremism > > in all > > of its forms. > > > > In Ankara, I made clear that America is not – and never will > > be – at > > war with Islam. We will, however, relentlessly confront violent > > extremists > > who pose a grave threat to our security. Because we reject the same > > thing > > that people of all faiths reject: the killing of innocent men, > > women, and > > children. And it is my first duty as President to protect the American > > people. > > > > The situation in Afghanistan demonstrates America’s goals, > > and our > > need to work together. Over seven years ago, the United States > > pursued al > > Qaeda and the Taliban with broad international support. We did not > > go by > > choice, we went because of necessity. I am aware that some question or > > justify the events of 9/11. But let us be clear: al Qaeda killed > > nearly > > 3,000 people on that day. The victims were innocent men, women and > > children > > from America and many other nations who had done nothing to harm > > anybody. > > And yet Al Qaeda chose to ruthlessly murder these people, claimed > > credit for > > the attack, and even now states their determination to kill on a > > massive > > scale. They have affiliates in many countries and are trying to > > expand their > > reach. These are not opinions to be debated; these are facts to be > > dealt > > with. > > > > Make no mistake: we do not want to keep our troops in > > Afghanistan. > > We seek no military bases there. It is agonizing for America to lose > > our > > young men and women. It is costly and politically difficult to > > continue this > > conflict. We would gladly bring every single one of our troops home > > if we > > could be confident that there were not violent extremists in > > Afghanistan and > > Pakistan determined to kill as many Americans as they possibly can. > > But that > > is not yet the case. > > > > That’s why we’re partnering with a coalition of forty-six > > countries. > > And despite the costs involved, America’s commitment will not weaken. > > Indeed, none of us should tolerate these extremists. They have > > killed in > > many countries. They have killed people of different faiths – more > > than any > > other, they have killed Muslims. Their actions are irreconcilable > > with the > > rights of human beings, the progress of nations, and with Islam. The > > Holy > > Koran teaches that whoever kills an innocent, it is as if he has > > killed all > > mankind; and whoever saves a person, it is as if he has saved all > > mankind. > > The enduring faith of over a billion people is so much bigger than the > > narrow hatred of a few. Islam is not part of the problem in combating > > violent extremism – it is an important part of promoting peace. > > > > We also know that military power alone is not going to solve > > the > > problems in Afghanistan and Pakistan. That is why we plan to invest > > $1.5 > > billion each year over the next five years to partner with > > Pakistanis to > > build schools and hospitals, roads and businesses, and hundreds of > > millions > > to help those who have been displaced. And that is why we are > > providing more > > than $2.8 billion to help Afghans develop their economy and deliver > > services > > that people depend upon. > > > > Let me also address the issue of Iraq. Unlike Afghanistan, > > Iraq was > > a war of choice that provoked strong differences in my country and > > around > > the world. Although I believe that the Iraqi people are ultimately > > better > > off without the tyranny of Saddam Hussein, I also believe that > > events in > > Iraq have reminded America of the need to use diplomacy and build > > international consensus to resolve our problems whenever possible. > > Indeed, > > we can recall the words of Thomas Jefferson, who said: “I hope that > > our > > wisdom will grow with our power, and teach us that the less we use > > our power > > the greater it will be.” > > > > Today, America has a dual responsibility: to help Iraq forge a > > better future – and to leave Iraq to Iraqis. I have made it clear to > > the > > Iraqi people that we pursue no bases, and no claim on their > > territory or > > resources. Iraq’s sovereignty is its own. That is why I ordered the > > removal > > of our combat brigades by next August. That is why we will honor our > > agreement with Iraq’s democratically-elected government to remove > > combat > > troops from Iraqi cities by July, and to remove all our troops from > > Iraq by > > 2012. We will help Iraq train its Security Forces and develop its > > economy. > > But we will support a secure and united Iraq as a partner, and never > > as a > > patron. > > > > And finally, just as America can never tolerate violence by > > extremists, we must never alter our principles. 9/11 was an enormous > > trauma > > to our country. The fear and anger that it provoked was > > understandable, but > > in some cases, it led us to act contrary to our ideals. We are taking > > concrete actions to change course. I have unequivocally prohibited > > the use > > of torture by the United States, and I have ordered the prison at > > Guantanamo > > Bay closed by early next year. > > > > So America will defend itself respectful of the sovereignty of > > nations and the rule of law. And we will do so in partnership with > > Muslim > > communities which are also threatened. The sooner the extremists are > > isolated and unwelcome in Muslim communities, the sooner we will all > > be > > safer. > > > > The second major source of tension that we need to discuss is > > the > > situation between Israelis, Palestinians and the Arab world. > > > > America’s strong bonds with Israel are well known. This bond is > > unbreakable. It is based upon cultural and historical ties, and the > > recognition that the aspiration for a Jewish homeland is rooted in a > > tragic > > history that cannot be denied. > > > > Around the world, the Jewish people were persecuted for > > centuries, > > and anti-Semitism in Europe culminated in an unprecedented Holocaust. > > Tomorrow, I will visit Buchenwald, which was part of a network of > > camps > > where Jews were enslaved, tortured, shot and gassed to death by the > > Third > > Reich. Six million Jews were killed – more than the entire Jewish > > population > > of Israel today. Denying that fact is baseless, ignorant, and hateful. > > Threatening Israel with destruction – or repeating vile stereotypes > > about > > Jews – is deeply wrong, and only serves to evoke in the minds of > > Israelis > > this most painful of memories while preventing the peace that the > > people of > > this region deserve. > > > > On the other hand, it is also undeniable that the Palestinian > > people > > – Muslims and Christians – have suffered in pursuit of a homeland. > > For more > > than sixty years they have endured the pain of dislocation. Many > > wait in > > refugee camps in the West Bank, Gaza, and neighboring lands for a > > life of > > peace and security that they have never been able to lead. They > > endure the > > daily humiliations – large and small – that come with occupation. So > > let > > there be no doubt: the situation for the Palestinian people is > > intolerable. > > America will not turn our backs on the legitimate Palestinian > > aspiration for > > dignity, opportunity, and a state of their own. > > > > For decades, there has been a stalemate: two peoples with > > legitimate > > aspirations, each with a painful history that makes compromise > > elusive. It > > is easy to point fingers – for Palestinians to point to the > > displacement > > brought by Israel’s founding, and for Israelis to point to the > > constant > > hostility and attacks throughout its history from within its borders > > as well > > as beyond. But if we see this conflict only from one side or the > > other, then > > we will be blind to the truth: the only resolution is for the > > aspirations of > > both sides to be met through two states, where Israelis and > > Palestinians > > each live in peace and security. > > > > That is in Israel’s interest, Palestine’s interest, America’s > > interest, and the world’s interest. That is why I intend to personally > > pursue this outcome with all the patience that the task requires. The > > obligations that the parties have agreed to under the Road Map are > > clear. > > For peace to come, it is time for them – and all of us – to live up > > to our > > responsibilities. > > > > Palestinians must abandon violence. Resistance through > > violence and > > killing is wrong and does not succeed. For centuries, black people in > > America suffered the lash of the whip as slaves and the humiliation of > > segregation. But it was not violence that won full and equal rights. > > It was > > a peaceful and determined insistence upon the ideals at the center of > > America’s founding. This same story can be told by people from South > > Africa > > to South Asia; from Eastern Europe to Indonesia. It’s a story with a > > simple > > truth: that violence is a dead end. It is a sign of neither courage > > nor > > power to shoot rockets at sleeping children, or to blow up old women > > on a > > bus. That is not how moral authority is claimed; that is how it is > > surrendered. > > > > Now is the time for Palestinians to focus on what they can > > build. > > The Palestinian Authority must develop its capacity to govern, with > > institutions that serve the needs of its people. Hamas does have > > support > > among some Palestinians, but they also have responsibilities. To > > play a role > > in fulfilling Palestinian aspirations, and to unify the Palestinian > > people, > > Hamas must put an end to violence, recognize past agreements, and > > recognize > > Israel’s right to exist. > > > > At the same time, Israelis must acknowledge that just as > > Israel’s > > right to exist cannot be denied, neither can Palestine’s. The United > > States > > does not accept the legitimacy of continued Israeli settlements. This > > construction violates previous agreements and undermines efforts to > > achieve > > peace. It is time for these settlements to stop. > > > > Israel must also live up to its obligations to ensure that > > Palestinians can live, and work, and develop their society. And just > > as it > > devastates Palestinian families, the continuing humanitarian crisis > > in Gaza > > does not serve Israel’s security; neither does the continuing lack of > > opportunity in the West Bank. Progress in the daily lives of the > > Palestinian > > people must be part of a road to peace, and Israel must take > > concrete steps > > to enable such progress. > > > > Finally, the Arab States must recognize that the Arab Peace > > Initiative was an important beginning, but not the end of their > > responsibilities. The Arab-Israeli conflict should no longer be used > > to > > distract the people of Arab nations from other problems. Instead, it > > must be > > a cause for action to help the Palestinian people develop the > > institutions > > that will sustain their state; to recognize Israel’s legitimacy; and > > to > > choose progress over a self-defeating focus on the past. > > > > America will align our policies with those who pursue peace, > > and say > > in public what we say in private to Israelis and Palestinians and > > Arabs. We > > cannot impose peace. But privately, many Muslims recognize that > > Israel will > > not go away. Likewise, many Israelis recognize the need for a > > Palestinian > > state. It is time for us to act on what everyone knows to be true. > > > > Too many tears have flowed. Too much blood has been shed. All > > of us > > have a responsibility to work for the day when the mothers of > > Israelis and > > Palestinians can see their children grow up without fear; when the > > Holy Land > > of three great faiths is the place of peace that God intended it to > > be; when > > Jerusalem is a secure and lasting home for Jews and Christians and > > Muslims, > > and a place for all of the children of Abraham to mingle peacefully > > together > > as in the story of Isra, when Moses, Jesus, and Mohammed (peace be > > upon > > them) joined in prayer. > > > > The third source of tension is our shared interest in the > > rights and > > responsibilities of nations on nuclear weapons. > > > > This issue has been a source of tension between the United > > States > > and the Islamic Republic of Iran. For many years, Iran has defined > > itself in > > part by its opposition to my country, and there is indeed a tumultuous > > history between us. In the middle of the Cold War, the United States > > played > > a role in the overthrow of a democratically-elected Iranian > > government. > > Since the Islamic Revolution, Iran has played a role in acts of > > hostage-taking and violence against U.S. troops and civilians. This > > history > > is well known. Rather than remain trapped in the past, I have made > > it clear > > to Iran’s leaders and people that my country is prepared to move > > forward. > > The question, now, is not what Iran is against, but rather what > > future it > > wants to build. > > > > It will be hard to overcome decades of mistrust, but we will > > proceed > > with courage, rectitude and resolve. There will be many issues to > > discuss > > between our two countries, and we are willing to move forward without > > preconditions on the basis of mutual respect. But it is clear to all > > concerned that when it comes to nuclear weapons, we have reached a > > decisive > > point. This is not simply about America’s interests. It is about > > preventing > > a nuclear arms race in the Middle East that could lead this region > > and the > > world down a hugely dangerous path. > > > > I understand those who protest that some countries have > > weapons that > > others do not. No single nation should pick and choose which nations > > hold > > nuclear weapons. That is why I strongly reaffirmed America’s > > commitment to > > seek a world in which* no* nations hold nuclear weapons. And any > > nation – > > including Iran – should have the right to access peaceful nuclear > > power if > > it complies with its responsibilities under the nuclear Non- > > Proliferation > > Treaty. That commitment is at the core of the Treaty, and it must be > > kept > > for all who fully abide by it. And I am hopeful that all countries > > in the > > region can share in this goal. > > > > The fourth issue that I will address is democracy. > > > > I know there has been controversy about the promotion of > > democracy > > in recent years, and much of this controversy is connected to the > > war in > > Iraq. So let me be clear: no system of government can or should be > > imposed > > upon one nation by any other. > > > > That does not lessen my commitment, however, to governments > > that > > reflect the will of the people. Each nation gives life to this > > principle in > > its own way, grounded in the traditions of its own people. America > > does not > > presume to know what is best for everyone, just as we would not > > presume to > > pick the outcome of a peaceful election. But I do have an unyielding > > belief > > that all people yearn for certain things: the ability to speak your > > mind and > > have a say in how you are governed; confidence in the rule of law > > and the > > equal administration of justice; government that is transparent and > > doesn’t > > steal from the people; the freedom to live as you choose. Those are > > not just > > American ideas, they are human rights, and that is why we will > > support them > > everywhere. > > > > There is no straight line to realize this promise. But this > > much is > > clear: governments that protect these rights are ultimately more > > stable, > > successful and secure. Suppressing ideas never succeeds in making > > them go > > away. America respects the right of all peaceful and law-abiding > > voices to > > be heard around the world, even if we disagree with them. And we will > > welcome all elected, peaceful governments – provided they govern with > > respect for all their people. > > > > This last point is important because there are some who > > advocate for > > democracy only when they are out of power; once in power, they are > > ruthless > > in suppressing the rights of others. No matter where it takes hold, > > government of the people and by the people sets a single standard > > for all > > who hold power: you must maintain your power through consent, not > > coercion; > > you must respect the rights of minorities, and participate with a > > spirit of > > tolerance and compromise; you must place the interests of your > > people and > > the legitimate workings of the political process above your party. > > Without > > these ingredients, elections alone do not make true democracy. > > > > The fifth issue that we must address together is religious > > freedom. > > > > Islam has a proud tradition of tolerance. We see it in the > > history > > of Andalusia and Cordoba during the Inquisition. I saw it firsthand > > as a > > child in Indonesia, where devout Christians worshiped freely in an > > overwhelmingly Muslim country. That is the spirit we need today. > > People in > > every country should be free to choose and live their faith based > > upon the > > persuasion of the mind, heart, and soul. This tolerance is essential > > for > > religion to thrive, but it is being challenged in many different ways. > > > > Among some Muslims, there is a disturbing tendency to measure > > one’s > > own faith by the rejection of another’s. The richness of religious > > diversity > > must be upheld – whether it is for Maronites in Lebanon or the Copts > > in > > Egypt. And fault lines must be closed among Muslims as well, as the > > divisions between Sunni and Shia have led to tragic violence, > > particularly > > in Iraq. > > > > Freedom of religion is central to the ability of peoples to > > live > > together. We must always examine the ways in which we protect it. For > > instance, in the United States, rules on charitable giving have made > > it > > harder for Muslims to fulfill their religious obligation. That is > > why I am > > committed to working with American Muslims to ensure that they can > > fulfill*zakat > > *. > > > > Likewise, it is important for Western countries to avoid > > impeding > > Muslim citizens from practicing religion as they see fit – for > > instance, by > > dictating what clothes a Muslim woman should wear. We cannot disguise > > hostility towards any religion behind the pretence of liberalism. > > > > Indeed, faith should bring us together. That is why we are > > forging > > service projects in America that bring together Christians, Muslims, > > and > > Jews. That is why we welcome efforts like Saudi Arabian King > > Abdullah’s > > Interfaith dialogue and Turkey’s leadership in the Alliance of > > Civilizations. Around the world, we can turn dialogue into Interfaith > > service, so bridges between peoples lead to action – whether it is > > combating > > malaria in Africa, or providing relief after a natural disaster. > > > > The sixth issue that I want to address is women’s rights. > > > > I know there is debate about this issue. I reject the view of > > some > > in the West that a woman who chooses to cover her hair is somehow less > > equal, but I do believe that a woman who is denied an education is > > denied > > equality. And it is no coincidence that countries where women are > > well-educated are far more likely to be prosperous. > > > > Now let me be clear: issues of women’s equality are by no means > > simply an issue for Islam. In Turkey, Pakistan, Bangladesh and > > Indonesia, we > > have seen Muslim-majority countries elect a woman to lead. > > Meanwhile, the > > struggle for women’s equality continues in many aspects of American > > life, > > and in countries around the world. > > > > Our daughters can contribute just as much to society as our > > sons, > > and our common prosperity will be advanced by allowing all humanity > > – men > > and women – to reach their full potential. I do not believe that > > women must > > make the same choices as men in order to be equal, and I respect > > those women > > who choose to live their lives in traditional roles. But it should > > be their > > choice. That is why the United States will partner with any Muslim- > > majority > > country to support expanded literacy for girls, and to help young > > women > > pursue employment through micro-financing that helps people live their > > dreams. > > > > Finally, I want to discuss economic development and > > opportunity. > > > > I know that for many, the face of globalization is > > contradictory. > > The Internet and television can bring knowledge and information, but > > also > > offensive sexuality and mindless violence. Trade can bring new > > wealth and > > opportunities, but also huge disruptions and changing communities. > > In all > > nations – including my own – this change can bring fear. Fear that > > because > > of modernity we will lose of control over our economic choices, our > > politics, and most importantly our identities – those things we most > > cherish > > about our communities, our families, our traditions, and our faith. > > > > But I also know that human progress cannot be denied. There > > need not > > be contradiction between development and tradition. Countries like > > Japan and > > South Korea grew their economies while maintaining distinct > > cultures. The > > same is true for the astonishing progress within Muslim-majority > > countries > > from Kuala Lumpur to Dubai. In ancient times and in our times, Muslim > > communities have been at the forefront of innovation and education. > > > > This is important because no development strategy can be > > based only > > upon what comes out of the ground, nor can it be sustained while young > > people are out of work. Many Gulf States have enjoyed great wealth > > as a > > consequence of oil, and some are beginning to focus it on broader > > development. But all of us must recognize that education and > > innovation will > > be the currency of the 21st century, and in too many Muslim > > communities > > there remains underinvestment in these areas. I am emphasizing such > > investments within my country. And while America in the past has > > focused on > > oil and gas in this part of the world, we now seek a broader > > engagement. > > > > On education, we will expand exchange programs, and increase > > scholarships, like the one that brought my father to America, while > > encouraging more Americans to study in Muslim communities. And we > > will match > > promising Muslim students with internships in America; invest in on- > > line > > learning for teachers and children around the world; and create a > > new online > > network, so a teenager in Kansas can communicate instantly with a > > teenager > > in Cairo. > > > > On economic development, we will create a new corps of business > > volunteers to partner with counterparts in Muslim-majority > > countries. And I > > will host a Summit on Entrepreneurship this year to identify how we > > can > > deepen ties between business leaders, foundations and social > > entrepreneurs > > in the United States and Muslim communities around the world. > > > > On science and technology, we will launch a new fund to support > > technological development in Muslim-majority countries, and to help > > transfer > > ideas to the marketplace so they can create jobs. We will open > > centers of > > scientific excellence in Africa, the Middle East and Southeast Asia, > > and > > appoint new Science Envoys to collaborate on programs that develop new > > sources of energy, create green jobs, digitize records, clean water, > > and > > grow new crops. And today I am announcing a new global effort with the > > Organization of the Islamic Conference to eradicate polio. And we > > will also > > expand partnerships with Muslim communities to promote child and > > maternal > > health. > > > > All these things must be done in partnership. Americans are > > ready to > > join with citizens and governments; community organizations, religious > > leaders, and businesses in Muslim communities around the world to > > help our > > people pursue a better life. > > > > The issues that I have described will not be easy to address. > > But we > > have a responsibility to join together on behalf of the world we > > seek – a > > world where extremists no longer threaten our people, and American > > troops > > have come home; a world where Israelis and Palestinians are each > > secure in a > > state of their own, and nuclear energy is used for peaceful > > purposes; a > > world where governments serve their citizens, and the rights of all > > God’s > > children are respected. Those are mutual interests. That is the > > world we > > seek. But we can only achieve it together. > > > > I know there are many – Muslim and non-Muslim – who question > > whether > > we can forge this new beginning. Some are eager to stoke the flames of > > division, and to stand in the way of progress. Some suggest that it > > isn’t > > worth the effort – that we are fated to disagree, and civilizations > > are > > doomed to clash. Many more are simply skeptical that real change can > > occur. > > There is so much fear, so much mistrust. But if we choose to be > > bound by the > > past, we will never move forward. And I want to particularly say > > this to > > young people of every faith, in every country – you, more than > > anyone, have > > the ability to remake this world. > > > > All of us share this world for but a brief moment in time. The > > question is whether we spend that time focused on what pushes us > > apart, or > > whether we commit ourselves to an effort – a sustained effort – to > > find > > common ground, to focus on the future we seek for our children, and to > > respect the dignity of all human beings. > > > > It is easier to start wars than to end them. It is easier to > > blame > > others than to look inward; to see what is different about someone > > than to > > find the things we share. But we should choose the right path, not > > just the > > easy path. There is also one rule that lies at the heart of every > > religion –that we do unto others as we would have them do unto us. > > This truth > > transcends nations and peoples – a belief that isn’t new; that isn’t > > black > > or white or brown; that isn’t Christian, or Muslim or Jew. It’s a > > belief > > that pulsed in the cradle of civilization, and that still beats in > > the heart > > of billions. It’s a faith in other people, and it’s what brought me > > here > > today. > > > > We have the power to make the world we seek, but only if we > > have the > > courage to make a new beginning, keeping in mind what has been > > written. > > > > The Holy Koran tells us, “O mankind! We have created you male > > and a > > female; and we have made you into nations and tribes so that you may > > know > > one another.” > > > > The Talmud tells us: “The whole of the Torah is for the > > purpose of > > promoting peace.” > > > > The Holy Bible tells us, “Blessed are the peacemakers, for they > > shall be called sons of God.” > > > > The people of the world can live together in peace. We know > > that is > > God’s vision. Now, that must be our work here on Earth. Thank you. > > And may > > God’s peace be upon you. > > > > > > -- > > faiz > > _________________________________________ > > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > > Critiques & Collaborations > > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > > subscribe in the subject header. > > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> > > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > subscribe in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> > -- Rajen. From yousufism at gmail.com Fri Jun 5 13:34:59 2009 From: yousufism at gmail.com (M Yousuf) Date: Fri, 5 Jun 2009 13:34:59 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] How India's RAW manipulates, funds media Message-ID: <19ba050f0906050104k120c3535g32a2e21f6f16feae@mail.gmail.com> http://dailymailnews.com/200905/29/news/dmtopstory01.html How India�s RAW manipulates, funds media *By Makhdoom Babar Editor-in-Chief (Additional reporting by Christina Palmer in New Delhi, Sandra Johnson in Washington D.C and Cherry Ferguson in London)* This is the age of information, the IT and above all the media, both print and electronic. . It is said that after the renaissance of media across the world, the wars are fought and won with the media being on the frontline. Be it US attack on Iraq or be it terror attack in India, the media is immensely used to propagate one�s views and perception. The media endeavors are extensively manipulated to change the world opinion in own favor and against the enemy. Almost all the governments have given a free hand to their respective intelligence agencies to manipulate media and fund the media organizations and individuals to gain the required results. No matter if it is the CNN journalists embedded US troops, invading Iraq or venom emitting Indian journalists and TV Anchors targeting Pakistan after the Mumbai carnage, the Intelligence hands are always their to direct them and to fund them. However, Indian Intelligence Agency Research and Analysis Wing (RAW)has taken the issue more seriously than its contemporary agencies in the region and even across the world. A comprehensive investigation into the matter by the team of investigative journalists of The Daily Mail reveals that in fact raw moved into the direction of utilizing media factor almost 30 years back. In the mid 80s, when Rajiv Gandhi was the Prime Minister of India, RAW sent a media related proposal to the Prime Minister�s Office (PMO) which was straight away approved. According to this proposal, RAW was given a free hand to use as much as required funds to make a solid grip on national and international media. Initially, RAW came up with a long term project through which, RAW started short listing young, potential and ambitious Indian journalists and later started penetrating them to different media organizations across the world. Today, according to rough estimate, 90 percent of the Indian or Indian origin journalists working in different media organizations through out the world, are those having the RAW blessings and one way or the other, promoting Indian perception and delivering to the RAW�s requirements. The success of RAW in this direction can be gauged from one fact that it has managed to get Indian journalists inducted even in leading Chinese media organizations like the China Daily, the Beijing Review etc. In the 2nd phase, RAW started funding local media organizations in India and also started buying the services of journalists working in the foreign countries� leading media organizations. According to a Japanese journalist, who worked in India for a Japanese news agency for about 3 years, the India-based foreign journalists are very well �look after� and �entertained� by RAW officials who develop interaction with these foreign journalists as very warm but mysterious friends. These India-based foreign journalists are at least once a year, are offered a vacation trip to Dubai where their boarding, lodging and even shopping, are all paid off by their �friends�. According to some reports, RAW is practicing the same with certain Islamabad-based foreign journalists. The Daily Mail�s investigations reveal that RAW started another project around five years back under which Air Time is purchased on popular English language international television channels and then during that air time, special programs are televised to promote India�s view point with RAW�s perspective. India Hour on BBC is one of the examples in this direction. The Daily Mail�s investigations further reveal that RAW launched a mega project to control regional journalists and to bring them to a secret RAW platform when it established South Asian Free Media association (SAFMA) a few years back. The SAFMA, the darling baby of RAW has so far been focusing on highlighting the issue of Indian occupied Kashmir with RAW�s perspective and nothing much or more. The members of SAFMA, whenever asked as to how they manage to generate funds for the highly lavish functions and seminars under its banners since all of them are paid employees of different media organizations of South Asia, remain mum. Back home, RAW is not only funding individual columnists and intellectuals but is also comprehensively funding a number of newspapers and television channels. RAW not only makes direct payments to a variety of regional and English language newspapers but also arrange advertisement support for these media organization. Many of these newspapers are run as �projects� of RAW and all assets are owned by the agency itself. Some the newspapers that are getting regular RAW funding and patronage include India News, Aajkal, Al-Hyndelyom, Asia News, Bharat Observer, The Christian Messenger, Daily Excelsior, Daily Roshni, The Daily India, Dakhshan bharat, Deshdoot, The Echo of India, Daily Greater Kashmir, Daily Jaihind, Kashmir Times, Kashmir Observer, Maharashtra Times, Nagalnd Post, Daily Phayul, Rajdhani Times, Daily Saij etc. These newspapers despite getting direct funding from RAW, also have the blessings of getting government advertisements and advertisements of leading Indian Business houses, having extraordinary relations with RAW. Furthermore, all the Indian airliners have strict orders from RAW to purchase these newspapers for on-board circulation. Apart from these newspapers support, RAW has also �gained� the �services� of different columnists, reporters and analysts at top media organizations like Times of India, Indian Express, The Hindu and Hindustan Times etc. Coming towards the Electronic media of India, RAW has made remarkable achievement in diluting media with Intelligence endeavors. It is not only funding different anchors and analysts but RAW has established a huge network in shape of ZEE T.V. Though RAW spends a huge chunk of money to achieve targets by funding 9x News, Aajtak, NDTV 24x7, Times now, TV9, Time TV etc, yet it runs the most venomous news Channel the Zee TV. Zee News�s offices are considered to be Media Headquarter of RAW. The Investigations of The Daily Mail further reveal that RAW controls a whole paraphernalia of media network including ZEE TV and Films Network, Asian News International (ANI) etc.. The ZEE network retains the pivotal position in this RAW controlled propaganda and misinformation spiral. It was actually RAW that has been the master mind behind the establishment of ZEE Television Network. According to our sources the proposal for establishing a private sector television channel actually under the control of Indian intelligence agency was first presented to the Late Indian Prime Minister Mrs. Indira Gandhi. The proposal could not materialize at that time as Mrs. Gandhi had certain reservations about giving more powers to RAW for she suspected it of being behind her earlier electoral defeat at the hands of another Late Prime Minister of India Mr. Murar ji Desai. However, Indian movie star Amitabh Bachan who was a personal friend of Rajiv Gandhi got the cue. His brother later reportedly siphoned part of the Rs.64 crore kick-backs of the Swedish Bofor guns deal into setting up a private satellite channel by the name of TV Asia. TV Asia enjoyed certain patronage from Indian government and intelligence agencies though it was financed privately. In return RAW enjoyed certain leverage on TV Asia; nonetheless its officials continued the campaign for having their own channel. The break through was achieved when a high ranking RAW operative Vasant Parekh found a willing partner in the Chairman of Essel Group of Industries, Subash Chandra. The Essel Group was mainly involved in the business of entertainment and amusement parks. Being an adventurous entrepreneur, Chandra indicated his willingness to Vasant Parekh for investing partly in the RAW�s satellite TV venture provided it also shared a big portion investment and backup support. RAW hierarchy did not require much persuasion to dole out a hefty amount of US$ 25 million as an initial participation share in the project. The deal was struck and the ZEE Television Network was formally launched in 1992 with Subhas Chandra as the Chairman and Vasant Parekh as the founding member on its Board of Directors. It was agreed to induct and employ a certain number of RAW operatives in all cadres of the network. RAW personnel were thus recruited amongst the programme producers, anchors, newscasters, and even amongst the marketing and business managers. The arrangement facilitates RAW to send its agents undercover to Pakistan and even other countries. Having a media tag gives these operatives an easy access to cultivate a number of personalities in the target country, which would have been otherwise difficult. The broad outline of the propaganda objectives of ZEE TV defined by RAW were: �Undermine the ideological frontiers of Pakistan through oft repeated Indian rhetoric of cultural and social uniformity of South Asian sub-continent; �Malign Pakistan by a deliberate negative projection of the events and developments in the country. The aim was to systematically build a poor image of Pakistan may it be in the context of internal political developments, religious or social events, women issues, child labour, brick kiln workers, Ahmedi or Christian minorities, secretarian clashes, Mohajar ethnic movement, foreign policy or bilateral relations with India. Although human rights violations, social, cultural, religious and economic problems exist at a much gigantic proportion in India these were to be downplayed in Indian context; �Projection of India as a modern secular and progressive state which is the world�s largest democracy; �Propagation of India�s foreign policy objectives and its position on Kashmir; �Promotion of Hindu mythology through serials based on mythology as well as soap operas telecast on the network; In pursuance of this policy ZEE lays special emphasis in cultivating prominent personalities in Pakistan for accomplishing the ideological agenda. Bigwigs in Pakistani entertainment and show biz, poets, writers, eminent sportsmen and politicians are a prime target. The common modus operandi is that Pakistani celebrities are invited as chief guests or special guests to various ZEE programmes. A lot of praise is showered, calling them artists whose talent is not restricted by any boundary, frontier or divide and that the people of the two countries love each other, only the politicians conspire to keep them separated. Overwhelmed by the tremendous show of hospitality the artist either ends up unwillingly endorsing the host�s views or says something that is construed to be negating the �Two Nation� basis of Pakistan�s independence. According to credible information RAW also sponsors organizing of performances, shooting of videos and securing of contracts for Bollywood movies and entertainment agencies for some of these personalities belonging to the Pakistan entertainment, film and music. The Daily Mail has learnt that RAW�s further tightened its noose on media during the first government of BJP under the then Minister for Information and Broadcasting Parmod Mahajan. RAW had in the meanwhile already taken control of the struggling television news agency Asian News International (ANI) founded by an ambitious cameraman Prem Parakash. When the agency ran into financial troubles RAW came forth to help it with idea of producing South Asia News line which all the Indian entertainment TV Channels not producing their own news bulletins were force to telecast. Parmod reportedly threatened these channels with the sweeping powers under the PRASAR BHARATI (Indian Broadcasting) ACT, 1990 Chapter IV, 23; �Power of Central Government to give Directions� if they did not comply. Even his successor Sushma Swaraj kept calling shots at the media also making coercive use of the draconian Indian National Security Act, 1980. Three Advisory Bodies have been pivotal in this regard to streamli mittee. The DFF amongst other things virtually controls the films dealing with news, current events and documentaries. RAW has a permanent representation on this Committee which can use any pretext to penalize channels not receptive of its directives. Our correspondent Saira Ilyas adds from London: The enormous success of ZEE in South Asia and Middle East encouraged its sponsors to target the Asian viewers in Britain and Europe. The prime objective was to disillusion the expatriate Pakistanis and Kashmiris from their ideological basis. Britain being the home of largest Kashmiri refugee community outside Asia has become a cause of concern for the Indian establishment. The growing influence of Kashmiri community in the political circles of UK, their frequent protests over the human rights violations in the Indian held Kashmir and demand for the right of self-determination for Kashmiris is often embarrassing for the Indians. ZEE UK was therefore launched in 1995. The ZEE�s strategists, however, realized that Braitain and Europe was a different ball game. To lure the Pakistani expatriates it was decided to telecast a mix of Indian and Pakistani programmes. It is learnt that a team was sent to Pakistan to negotiate the purchase of PTV programmes for telecast on ZEE UK. ZEE was able to procure from the PTV library many classical dramas, the most recent hit telecasts, musical programs, special occasions telecasts for Eid, Muharam, Ramadan including and other purely Islamic religious programs. These programs were reportedly sold to the ZEE at throw away prices. The PTV establishment of the time credited itself for having sold the programmes with no other clientele. Little did they know the diabolic use that ZEE had planned for these programs. However, PTV authorities maintain that some of its programs were recorded off air by a Lahore based spurious company and sold to ZEE TV. Subsequently PTV obtained a court injunction to stop ZEE from telecast of some of its programs. Nonetheless this gap is now filled by the private productions that have mushroomed in Pakistan over the last few years. The ZEE UK program managers ran an extra-mile in their endeavors to establish it as a neutral TV of the entire South Asian community in Europe. The propaganda against Pakistan was deliberately kept sublime in the initial year of its launching. However, it continued its policy of reporting negative developments in respect of Pakistan and black outing positive aspects may it be as non political news as winning a cricket match by Pakistan. Nonetheless, ZEE�s one sided hype during events such as the Kargil conflict and later during the Mumbai terror attacks gave away any semblance of neutrality that the channels had been portraying. The propaganda blitz unleashed by ZEE since the take over by the BJP appointed RAW administration has exposed the real face of the channel and the Indian government�s propaganda campaign; the Central Press Accreditation Committee (PIB), Film Advisory Committee (DFF) and Hindi Advisory Committee. It is popularly believed in the South Asian community in UK that ZEE-RAW nexus was fully unveiled during the RAW staged hijacking drama of an Indian airliner in December 1999. Throughout the hijacking drama ZEE newscasters and expert panelists many among whom were actually undercover RAW officials, continued to narrate RAW orchestrated script like parrots in an unbelievable frenzy. ZEE was further exposed by completely biased reporting following the RAW staged spate of attacks in India after September11 such as the attack on the sham State Assembly of Indian Occupied Jammu and Kashmir, Indian Parliament, US Consulate Calcutta as well as the 2002 border standoff between Pakistan and India and lately the Mumbai carnage. RAW prolific media network however received a setback when its sponsored Reminisce Television Network (RTN) could not succeed in UK and Europe. The free to air transmission of RTN�s Channel Asia 1 could not get enough advertisements due to over crowding of the market by many Asian Channels. The RTN also had an Urdu Channel ANJUMAN to target Pakistani viewers besides Gujarati, Lashkara (Punjabi), Bengali and other regional language channels. RAW is now concentrating on ZEE and SONY Entertainment Television (SET). This is just one case that The Daily Mail has presented here for its valued readers across the world. The Daily mail is near to complete its investigations about RAW�s relations to many other Television Channels and newspapers of India and Aajtak-RAW nexus would be the 2nd of this series of investigative reports. The Daily Mail�s investigations indicate that RAW is spending at least 500 million to 700 million rupees on media organizations and individuals per year and ZEE TV project is not included in this budget. From pawan.durani at gmail.com Fri Jun 5 13:53:14 2009 From: pawan.durani at gmail.com (Pawan Durani) Date: Fri, 5 Jun 2009 13:53:14 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Urgent Warden Message In-Reply-To: <341380d00906050012x442fc5d9r1bbb32dd7462a67b@mail.gmail.com> References: <6b79f1a70906040149o484ffff1j32fa23f2d04fb5cc@mail.gmail.com> <341380d00906040823m79f3a905r279650ecb1b2f731@mail.gmail.com> <6b79f1a70906040833l1f627773q3b40033ffa0c712d@mail.gmail.com> <341380d00906040841h4756aa5p68c48631e78f1f25@mail.gmail.com> <6b79f1a70906042241o6304d17dje01562222352e525@mail.gmail.com> <341380d00906050012x442fc5d9r1bbb32dd7462a67b@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <6b79f1a70906050123m474bb5f5j544cd46681001e25@mail.gmail.com> Anupam , You claim to be a journalist but think like what was the of Sreesanth in Fake IPL Blog. Pls go through the report of CNN IBN on its website . It reads... " Hafiz Saeed , the terror mastermind behind 26/11 in Mumbai and the Jamaat-ud-Dawa chief was released two days ago by a Lahore court for want of evidence. In view of this, the United States has issued a travel advisory for India and Pakistan. " http://ibnlive.in.com/news/india-upset-over-us-advisory/94188-3.html Atleast , though not being a journalist , i think like them . Regards Pawan Durani On Fri, Jun 5, 2009 at 12:42 PM, anupam chakravartty wrote: > err...Pawan, may be you should head for the hills. u need some peace in > life. as you are panic stricken. > > on second why dont you start staying inside a trench..you will be safe > > On 6/5/09, Pawan Durani wrote: > > > > Anupam , > > > > Just spend some time up in hills. You need a break. > > > > Pawan > > > > > > > > On 6/4/09, anupam chakravartty wrote: > > > Dear Pawan, > > > > > > You might be living in a victory syndrome or loosing streak, for me it > > was > > > an loss of so many lives. a life lost in such a calamity is more > > important > > > that any country. but that doesnt mean you unneccesarily start posting > > > american embassy communiques here...that too which are stale. these > > warnings > > > create panic among most sane and normal peace loving person. > > > > > > you end up propagating the similar ends that these terrorists have been > > > trying to achieve -- create fear. > > > > > > anupam > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > On Thu, Jun 4, 2009 at 9:03 PM, Pawan Durani > > wrote: > > > > > >> Dear Anupam , > > >> > > >> Thank you for pointing out that i suffer from Paranoia. It was quite a > > >> polite way to argue. > > >> > > >> Going forward , there would be many citizens of US who may be > subscribed > > >> to > > >> reader list and may be interested in knowing what their Govt advises > > them. > > >> > > >> After 26/11 , we live in a victory syndrome of having got over the > > attack > > >> on Mumbai , however I am sure US intelligence would have given their > > Govt > > >> much valuable feedback as well and we must not neglect how a foreign > > >> nation > > >> advises its citizen about travelling to our country. > > >> > > >> Wishes > > >> > > >> Pawan > > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> On Thu, Jun 4, 2009 at 8:53 PM, anupam chakravartty > > >> wrote: > > >> > > >>> dear pawan, > > >>> > > >>> FYI, this is a form of general warning issued since 2001 after 9/11 > > >>> attacks. > > >>> i think Pawan you suffer bouts of paranoia on behalf of Americans. > here > > i > > >>> am > > >>> NOT trying to defend hafiz sayeed's freedom but please stop creating > an > > >>> unneccesary state of fear in the reader list. > > >>> > > >>> can the moderator be slightly more responsible here? > > >>> > > >>> -anupam > > >>> > > >>> On Thu, Jun 4, 2009 at 2:19 PM, Pawan Durani > > > >>> wrote: > > >>> > > >>> > "effect of Hafiz Sayed being set free in Pakistan" > > >>> > > > >>> > June 2, 2009 > > >>> > > > >>> > > > >>> > The United States Mission in India wishes to *urgently *remind all > > U.S. > > >>> > citizens resident in or traveling to India that there is a high > > threat > > >>> from > > >>> > terrorism throughout India. As terror attacks are a serious and > > >>> > growing > > >>> > threat, U.S. citizens are urged to always practice good security, > > >>> including > > >>> > maintaining a heightened situational awareness and a low profile. > > >>> > Americans > > >>> > in India should be vigilant at all times and monitor local news > > reports > > >>> and > > >>> > vary their routes and times in carrying out daily activities. > > >>> > Americans > > >>> > should consider the level of security present when visiting public > > >>> places, > > >>> > including religious sites, or choosing hotels, restaurants, > > >>> entertainment > > >>> > and recreation venues. > > >>> > > > >>> > For the latest security information, Americans traveling abroad > > should > > >>> > regularly monitor the Department's Internet web site at > > >>> > http://travel.state.gov where the current Worldwide Caution, > Travel > > >>> > Warnings, and Travel Alerts can be found. Up-to-date information on > > >>> > security > > >>> > can also be obtained by calling 1-888-407-4747 toll free in the > > United > > >>> > States and Canada or, for callers outside the United States and > > Canada, > > >>> a > > >>> > regular toll line at 1-202-501-4444. These numbers are available > from > > >>> 8:00 > > >>> > a.m. to 8:00 p.m. Eastern Time, Monday through Friday (except U.S. > > >>> federal > > >>> > holidays). Americans are also encouraged to read the Country > Specific > > >>> > Information for India, available on the Embassy's website at > > >>> > http://newdelhi.usembassy.gov, and also at http://travel.state.gov > . > > >>> > > > >>> > U.S. citizens living or traveling abroad are encouraged to register > > >>> > with > > >>> > the > > >>> > nearest U.S. Embassy or Consulate through the State Department's > > travel > > >>> > registration web site at > > >>> > https://travelregistration.state.gov/ibrs/ui/so > > >>> > that they can obtain updated information on travel and security. > > >>> Americans > > >>> > without Internet access may register directly with the nearest U.S. > > >>> Embassy > > >>> > or Consulate. By registering, American citizens make it easier for > > the > > >>> > Embassy or Consulate to contact them in case of emergency. For > > >>> additional > > >>> > information, please refer to "A Safe Trip Abroad" found at > > >>> > http://travel.state.gov. > > >>> > > > >>> > U.S. citizens may contact the American Citizens Services Unit of > the > > >>> > Embassy > > >>> > or the Consulates General for further information: > > >>> > > > >>> > -- The U.S. Embassy in New Delhi is located at Shanti Path, > Chanakya > > >>> Puri > > >>> > 110021; telephone +91-11-2419-8000; fax +91-11-2419-8407. The > > Embassy's > > >>> > Internet home page address is http://newdelhi.usembassy.gov. > > >>> > > > >>> > -- The U.S. Consulate General in Mumbai (Bombay) is located at > > Lincoln > > >>> > House, 78 Bhulabhai Desai Road, 400026, telephone +91-22-2363-3611; > > fax > > >>> > +91-22-2363-0350. The Internet home page address is > > >>> > http://mumbai.usconsulate.gov. > > >>> > > > >>> > -- The U.S. Consulate General in Chennai (Madras) is at 220 Anna > > Salai, > > >>> > Gemini Circle, 600006, telephone +91-44-2857-4000; fax > > >>> > +91-44-2811-2027. > > >>> > The > > >>> > Internet home page address is http://chennai.usconsulate.gov. > > >>> > > > >>> > -- The U.S. Consulate General in Kolkata (Calcutta) is at 5/1 Ho > Chi > > >>> Minh > > >>> > Sarani, 700071; telephone +91-33-3984-2400; fax +91-33-2282-2335. > The > > >>> > Internet home page address is http://kolkata.usconsulate.gov. > > >>> > > > >>> > > > >>> > -- The U.S. Consulate General in Hyderabad is at Paigah Palace, > > >>> > 1-8-323, > > >>> > Chiran Fort Lane, Begumpet, Secunderabad 500 003; telephone: +91 > (40) > > >>> > 4033-8300. The Internet home page address is > > >>> > http://hyderabad.usconsulate.gov. > > >>> > _________________________________________ > > >>> > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > > >>> > Critiques & Collaborations > > >>> > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > > >>> > subscribe in the subject header. > > >>> > To unsubscribe: > https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > > >>> > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> > > >>> _________________________________________ > > >>> reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > > >>> Critiques & Collaborations > > >>> To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > > >>> subscribe in the subject header. > > >>> To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > > >>> List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> > > >> > > >> > > >> > > > _________________________________________ > > > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > > > Critiques & Collaborations > > > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > > subscribe > > > in the subject header. > > > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > > > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> > > > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > subscribe in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> > From pawan.durani at gmail.com Fri Jun 5 13:54:01 2009 From: pawan.durani at gmail.com (Pawan Durani) Date: Fri, 5 Jun 2009 13:54:01 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Urgent Warden Message In-Reply-To: <341380d00906050012x442fc5d9r1bbb32dd7462a67b@mail.gmail.com> References: <6b79f1a70906040149o484ffff1j32fa23f2d04fb5cc@mail.gmail.com> <341380d00906040823m79f3a905r279650ecb1b2f731@mail.gmail.com> <6b79f1a70906040833l1f627773q3b40033ffa0c712d@mail.gmail.com> <341380d00906040841h4756aa5p68c48631e78f1f25@mail.gmail.com> <6b79f1a70906042241o6304d17dje01562222352e525@mail.gmail.com> <341380d00906050012x442fc5d9r1bbb32dd7462a67b@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <6b79f1a70906050124w65a6e1den622579cb4557c149@mail.gmail.com> Anupam , You claim to be a journalist but think like what was the of Sreesanth's name in Fake IPL Blog. Pls go through the report of CNN IBN on its website . It reads... " Hafiz Saeed , the terror mastermind behind 26/11 in Mumbai and the Jamaat-ud-Dawa chief was released two days ago by a Lahore court for want of evidence. In view of this, the United States has issued a travel advisory for India and Pakistan. " http://ibnlive.in.com/news/india-upset-over-us-advisory/94188-3.html Atleast , though not being a journalist , i think like them . Regards Pawan Durani On Fri, Jun 5, 2009 at 12:42 PM, anupam chakravartty wrote: > err...Pawan, may be you should head for the hills. u need some peace in > life. as you are panic stricken. > > on second why dont you start staying inside a trench..you will be safe > > On 6/5/09, Pawan Durani wrote: > > > > Anupam , > > > > Just spend some time up in hills. You need a break. > > > > Pawan > > > > > > > > On 6/4/09, anupam chakravartty wrote: > > > Dear Pawan, > > > > > > You might be living in a victory syndrome or loosing streak, for me it > > was > > > an loss of so many lives. a life lost in such a calamity is more > > important > > > that any country. but that doesnt mean you unneccesarily start posting > > > american embassy communiques here...that too which are stale. these > > warnings > > > create panic among most sane and normal peace loving person. > > > > > > you end up propagating the similar ends that these terrorists have been > > > trying to achieve -- create fear. > > > > > > anupam > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > On Thu, Jun 4, 2009 at 9:03 PM, Pawan Durani > > wrote: > > > > > >> Dear Anupam , > > >> > > >> Thank you for pointing out that i suffer from Paranoia. It was quite a > > >> polite way to argue. > > >> > > >> Going forward , there would be many citizens of US who may be > subscribed > > >> to > > >> reader list and may be interested in knowing what their Govt advises > > them. > > >> > > >> After 26/11 , we live in a victory syndrome of having got over the > > attack > > >> on Mumbai , however I am sure US intelligence would have given their > > Govt > > >> much valuable feedback as well and we must not neglect how a foreign > > >> nation > > >> advises its citizen about travelling to our country. > > >> > > >> Wishes > > >> > > >> Pawan > > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> On Thu, Jun 4, 2009 at 8:53 PM, anupam chakravartty > > >> wrote: > > >> > > >>> dear pawan, > > >>> > > >>> FYI, this is a form of general warning issued since 2001 after 9/11 > > >>> attacks. > > >>> i think Pawan you suffer bouts of paranoia on behalf of Americans. > here > > i > > >>> am > > >>> NOT trying to defend hafiz sayeed's freedom but please stop creating > an > > >>> unneccesary state of fear in the reader list. > > >>> > > >>> can the moderator be slightly more responsible here? > > >>> > > >>> -anupam > > >>> > > >>> On Thu, Jun 4, 2009 at 2:19 PM, Pawan Durani > > > >>> wrote: > > >>> > > >>> > "effect of Hafiz Sayed being set free in Pakistan" > > >>> > > > >>> > June 2, 2009 > > >>> > > > >>> > > > >>> > The United States Mission in India wishes to *urgently *remind all > > U.S. > > >>> > citizens resident in or traveling to India that there is a high > > threat > > >>> from > > >>> > terrorism throughout India. As terror attacks are a serious and > > >>> > growing > > >>> > threat, U.S. citizens are urged to always practice good security, > > >>> including > > >>> > maintaining a heightened situational awareness and a low profile. > > >>> > Americans > > >>> > in India should be vigilant at all times and monitor local news > > reports > > >>> and > > >>> > vary their routes and times in carrying out daily activities. > > >>> > Americans > > >>> > should consider the level of security present when visiting public > > >>> places, > > >>> > including religious sites, or choosing hotels, restaurants, > > >>> entertainment > > >>> > and recreation venues. > > >>> > > > >>> > For the latest security information, Americans traveling abroad > > should > > >>> > regularly monitor the Department's Internet web site at > > >>> > http://travel.state.gov where the current Worldwide Caution, > Travel > > >>> > Warnings, and Travel Alerts can be found. Up-to-date information on > > >>> > security > > >>> > can also be obtained by calling 1-888-407-4747 toll free in the > > United > > >>> > States and Canada or, for callers outside the United States and > > Canada, > > >>> a > > >>> > regular toll line at 1-202-501-4444. These numbers are available > from > > >>> 8:00 > > >>> > a.m. to 8:00 p.m. Eastern Time, Monday through Friday (except U.S. > > >>> federal > > >>> > holidays). Americans are also encouraged to read the Country > Specific > > >>> > Information for India, available on the Embassy's website at > > >>> > http://newdelhi.usembassy.gov, and also at http://travel.state.gov > . > > >>> > > > >>> > U.S. citizens living or traveling abroad are encouraged to register > > >>> > with > > >>> > the > > >>> > nearest U.S. Embassy or Consulate through the State Department's > > travel > > >>> > registration web site at > > >>> > https://travelregistration.state.gov/ibrs/ui/so > > >>> > that they can obtain updated information on travel and security. > > >>> Americans > > >>> > without Internet access may register directly with the nearest U.S. > > >>> Embassy > > >>> > or Consulate. By registering, American citizens make it easier for > > the > > >>> > Embassy or Consulate to contact them in case of emergency. For > > >>> additional > > >>> > information, please refer to "A Safe Trip Abroad" found at > > >>> > http://travel.state.gov. > > >>> > > > >>> > U.S. citizens may contact the American Citizens Services Unit of > the > > >>> > Embassy > > >>> > or the Consulates General for further information: > > >>> > > > >>> > -- The U.S. Embassy in New Delhi is located at Shanti Path, > Chanakya > > >>> Puri > > >>> > 110021; telephone +91-11-2419-8000; fax +91-11-2419-8407. The > > Embassy's > > >>> > Internet home page address is http://newdelhi.usembassy.gov. > > >>> > > > >>> > -- The U.S. Consulate General in Mumbai (Bombay) is located at > > Lincoln > > >>> > House, 78 Bhulabhai Desai Road, 400026, telephone +91-22-2363-3611; > > fax > > >>> > +91-22-2363-0350. The Internet home page address is > > >>> > http://mumbai.usconsulate.gov. > > >>> > > > >>> > -- The U.S. Consulate General in Chennai (Madras) is at 220 Anna > > Salai, > > >>> > Gemini Circle, 600006, telephone +91-44-2857-4000; fax > > >>> > +91-44-2811-2027. > > >>> > The > > >>> > Internet home page address is http://chennai.usconsulate.gov. > > >>> > > > >>> > -- The U.S. Consulate General in Kolkata (Calcutta) is at 5/1 Ho > Chi > > >>> Minh > > >>> > Sarani, 700071; telephone +91-33-3984-2400; fax +91-33-2282-2335. > The > > >>> > Internet home page address is http://kolkata.usconsulate.gov. > > >>> > > > >>> > > > >>> > -- The U.S. Consulate General in Hyderabad is at Paigah Palace, > > >>> > 1-8-323, > > >>> > Chiran Fort Lane, Begumpet, Secunderabad 500 003; telephone: +91 > (40) > > >>> > 4033-8300. The Internet home page address is > > >>> > http://hyderabad.usconsulate.gov. > > >>> > _________________________________________ > > >>> > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > > >>> > Critiques & Collaborations > > >>> > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > > >>> > subscribe in the subject header. > > >>> > To unsubscribe: > https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > > >>> > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> > > >>> _________________________________________ > > >>> reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > > >>> Critiques & Collaborations > > >>> To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > > >>> subscribe in the subject header. > > >>> To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > > >>> List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> > > >> > > >> > > >> > > > _________________________________________ > > > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > > > Critiques & Collaborations > > > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > > subscribe > > > in the subject header. > > > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > > > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> > > > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > subscribe in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> > From c.anupam at gmail.com Fri Jun 5 14:18:09 2009 From: c.anupam at gmail.com (anupam chakravartty) Date: Fri, 5 Jun 2009 14:18:09 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Urgent Warden Message In-Reply-To: <6b79f1a70906050124w65a6e1den622579cb4557c149@mail.gmail.com> References: <6b79f1a70906040149o484ffff1j32fa23f2d04fb5cc@mail.gmail.com> <341380d00906040823m79f3a905r279650ecb1b2f731@mail.gmail.com> <6b79f1a70906040833l1f627773q3b40033ffa0c712d@mail.gmail.com> <341380d00906040841h4756aa5p68c48631e78f1f25@mail.gmail.com> <6b79f1a70906042241o6304d17dje01562222352e525@mail.gmail.com> <341380d00906050012x442fc5d9r1bbb32dd7462a67b@mail.gmail.com> <6b79f1a70906050124w65a6e1den622579cb4557c149@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <341380d00906050148w52a8f7eck8586dfc2c3cf7b62@mail.gmail.com> Now i know Pawan, which bunch of journalists you have been hanging out with lately which makes you such an informed citizen of the country (!) in this particular story, there is no remark by the American consul, that they had issued the warning in view of Hafiz Sayid's release. the exact quote that is ascribed to US diplomat Larry Shwartz: "There was speculation in the Indian media about enhanced terror threat in the country and we have an obligation to our citizens, so we have issued a travel advisory. It is nothing dramatic, but reflects the perception of the Indian media." SPECULATION IN INDIAN MEDIA forced them issue this warning. do you understand what the word speculation means? im sure with informed citizenry like you with your half hearted journalistic attempts are making it impossible for who are entrusted with this job to work. i have advice stop hanging out with those morons and think through your head. indian media is not just one person, its diverse...there are all kinds of people saying all sorts of things. just because it is IBN or EXPRESS or TIMES or INDIA TV or any blah and blah news organisation using it as a juicy lead to begin the story doesnt mean you have to take it as a truth. actually, FYI read this: http://www.expressindia.com/latest-news/Militant-arrested-in-Delhi-linked-to-JuD-chief-Police/471662/ and also even if they have caught this "terrorist" today, it doesnt mean one can issue such warnings based on these reports. P.S.: pawan jee kripya fake IPL blog padhne se thoda upar uthiye On 6/5/09, Pawan Durani wrote: > Anupam , > > You claim to be a journalist but think like what was the of Sreesanth's > name in Fake IPL Blog. > > Pls go through the report of CNN IBN on its website . It reads... > > " Hafiz Saeed , the terror mastermind behind 26/11 in Mumbai and the > Jamaat-ud-Dawa chief was released two days ago by a Lahore court for want of > evidence. In view of this, the United States has issued a travel advisory > for India and Pakistan. " > > http://ibnlive.in.com/news/india-upset-over-us-advisory/94188-3.html > > Atleast , though not being a journalist , i think like them . > > Regards > > Pawan Durani > > On Fri, Jun 5, 2009 at 12:42 PM, anupam chakravartty wrote: > >> err...Pawan, may be you should head for the hills. u need some peace in >> life. as you are panic stricken. >> >> on second why dont you start staying inside a trench..you will be safe >> >> On 6/5/09, Pawan Durani wrote: >> > >> > Anupam , >> > >> > Just spend some time up in hills. You need a break. >> > >> > Pawan >> > >> > >> > >> > On 6/4/09, anupam chakravartty wrote: >> > > Dear Pawan, >> > > >> > > You might be living in a victory syndrome or loosing streak, for me it >> > was >> > > an loss of so many lives. a life lost in such a calamity is more >> > important >> > > that any country. but that doesnt mean you unneccesarily start posting >> > > american embassy communiques here...that too which are stale. these >> > warnings >> > > create panic among most sane and normal peace loving person. >> > > >> > > you end up propagating the similar ends that these terrorists have >> been >> > > trying to achieve -- create fear. >> > > >> > > anupam >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > > On Thu, Jun 4, 2009 at 9:03 PM, Pawan Durani >> > wrote: >> > > >> > >> Dear Anupam , >> > >> >> > >> Thank you for pointing out that i suffer from Paranoia. It was quite >> a >> > >> polite way to argue. >> > >> >> > >> Going forward , there would be many citizens of US who may be >> subscribed >> > >> to >> > >> reader list and may be interested in knowing what their Govt advises >> > them. >> > >> >> > >> After 26/11 , we live in a victory syndrome of having got over the >> > attack >> > >> on Mumbai , however I am sure US intelligence would have given their >> > Govt >> > >> much valuable feedback as well and we must not neglect how a foreign >> > >> nation >> > >> advises its citizen about travelling to our country. >> > >> >> > >> Wishes >> > >> >> > >> Pawan >> > >> >> > >> >> > >> >> > >> >> > >> On Thu, Jun 4, 2009 at 8:53 PM, anupam chakravartty >> > >> wrote: >> > >> >> > >>> dear pawan, >> > >>> >> > >>> FYI, this is a form of general warning issued since 2001 after 9/11 >> > >>> attacks. >> > >>> i think Pawan you suffer bouts of paranoia on behalf of Americans. >> here >> > i >> > >>> am >> > >>> NOT trying to defend hafiz sayeed's freedom but please stop creating >> an >> > >>> unneccesary state of fear in the reader list. >> > >>> >> > >>> can the moderator be slightly more responsible here? >> > >>> >> > >>> -anupam >> > >>> >> > >>> On Thu, Jun 4, 2009 at 2:19 PM, Pawan Durani < >> pawan.durani at gmail.com> >> > >>> wrote: >> > >>> >> > >>> > "effect of Hafiz Sayed being set free in Pakistan" >> > >>> > >> > >>> > June 2, 2009 >> > >>> > >> > >>> > >> > >>> > The United States Mission in India wishes to *urgently *remind all >> > U.S. >> > >>> > citizens resident in or traveling to India that there is a high >> > threat >> > >>> from >> > >>> > terrorism throughout India. As terror attacks are a serious and >> > >>> > growing >> > >>> > threat, U.S. citizens are urged to always practice good security, >> > >>> including >> > >>> > maintaining a heightened situational awareness and a low profile. >> > >>> > Americans >> > >>> > in India should be vigilant at all times and monitor local news >> > reports >> > >>> and >> > >>> > vary their routes and times in carrying out daily activities. >> > >>> > Americans >> > >>> > should consider the level of security present when visiting public >> > >>> places, >> > >>> > including religious sites, or choosing hotels, restaurants, >> > >>> entertainment >> > >>> > and recreation venues. >> > >>> > >> > >>> > For the latest security information, Americans traveling abroad >> > should >> > >>> > regularly monitor the Department's Internet web site at >> > >>> > http://travel.state.gov where the current Worldwide Caution, >> Travel >> > >>> > Warnings, and Travel Alerts can be found. Up-to-date information >> on >> > >>> > security >> > >>> > can also be obtained by calling 1-888-407-4747 toll free in the >> > United >> > >>> > States and Canada or, for callers outside the United States and >> > Canada, >> > >>> a >> > >>> > regular toll line at 1-202-501-4444. These numbers are available >> from >> > >>> 8:00 >> > >>> > a.m. to 8:00 p.m. Eastern Time, Monday through Friday (except U.S. >> > >>> federal >> > >>> > holidays). Americans are also encouraged to read the Country >> Specific >> > >>> > Information for India, available on the Embassy's website at >> > >>> > http://newdelhi.usembassy.gov, and also at >> http://travel.state.gov. >> > >>> > >> > >>> > U.S. citizens living or traveling abroad are encouraged to >> register >> > >>> > with >> > >>> > the >> > >>> > nearest U.S. Embassy or Consulate through the State Department's >> > travel >> > >>> > registration web site at >> > >>> > https://travelregistration.state.gov/ibrs/ui/so >> > >>> > that they can obtain updated information on travel and security. >> > >>> Americans >> > >>> > without Internet access may register directly with the nearest >> U.S. >> > >>> Embassy >> > >>> > or Consulate. By registering, American citizens make it easier for >> > the >> > >>> > Embassy or Consulate to contact them in case of emergency. For >> > >>> additional >> > >>> > information, please refer to "A Safe Trip Abroad" found at >> > >>> > http://travel.state.gov. >> > >>> > >> > >>> > U.S. citizens may contact the American Citizens Services Unit of >> the >> > >>> > Embassy >> > >>> > or the Consulates General for further information: >> > >>> > >> > >>> > -- The U.S. Embassy in New Delhi is located at Shanti Path, >> Chanakya >> > >>> Puri >> > >>> > 110021; telephone +91-11-2419-8000; fax +91-11-2419-8407. The >> > Embassy's >> > >>> > Internet home page address is http://newdelhi.usembassy.gov. >> > >>> > >> > >>> > -- The U.S. Consulate General in Mumbai (Bombay) is located at >> > Lincoln >> > >>> > House, 78 Bhulabhai Desai Road, 400026, telephone >> +91-22-2363-3611; >> > fax >> > >>> > +91-22-2363-0350. The Internet home page address is >> > >>> > http://mumbai.usconsulate.gov. >> > >>> > >> > >>> > -- The U.S. Consulate General in Chennai (Madras) is at 220 Anna >> > Salai, >> > >>> > Gemini Circle, 600006, telephone +91-44-2857-4000; fax >> > >>> > +91-44-2811-2027. >> > >>> > The >> > >>> > Internet home page address is http://chennai.usconsulate.gov. >> > >>> > >> > >>> > -- The U.S. Consulate General in Kolkata (Calcutta) is at 5/1 Ho >> Chi >> > >>> Minh >> > >>> > Sarani, 700071; telephone +91-33-3984-2400; fax +91-33-2282-2335. >> The >> > >>> > Internet home page address is http://kolkata.usconsulate.gov. >> > >>> > >> > >>> > >> > >>> > -- The U.S. Consulate General in Hyderabad is at Paigah Palace, >> > >>> > 1-8-323, >> > >>> > Chiran Fort Lane, Begumpet, Secunderabad 500 003; telephone: +91 >> (40) >> > >>> > 4033-8300. The Internet home page address is >> > >>> > http://hyderabad.usconsulate.gov. >> > >>> > _________________________________________ >> > >>> > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. >> > >>> > Critiques & Collaborations >> > >>> > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with >> > >>> > subscribe in the subject header. >> > >>> > To unsubscribe: >> https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list >> > >>> > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> >> > >>> _________________________________________ >> > >>> reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. >> > >>> Critiques & Collaborations >> > >>> To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with >> > >>> subscribe in the subject header. >> > >>> To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list >> > >>> List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> >> > >> >> > >> >> > >> >> > > _________________________________________ >> > > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. >> > > Critiques & Collaborations >> > > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with >> > subscribe >> > > in the subject header. >> > > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list >> > > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> >> > >> _________________________________________ >> reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. >> Critiques & Collaborations >> To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with >> subscribe in the subject header. >> To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list >> List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> >> > > From c.anupam at gmail.com Fri Jun 5 13:57:24 2009 From: c.anupam at gmail.com (anupam chakravartty) Date: Fri, 5 Jun 2009 13:57:24 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] How India's RAW manipulates, funds media In-Reply-To: <19ba050f0906050104k120c3535g32a2e21f6f16feae@mail.gmail.com> References: <19ba050f0906050104k120c3535g32a2e21f6f16feae@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <341380d00906050127u6c42339dtcd96d9730c89cefd@mail.gmail.com> Dear yousuf, looks like babar did not get his share of the RAW cake. too sad. dont you think more than RAW, indian journalists would be more enthusiastic about getting close to these mysterious guys. a word of caution for mr Babar: with so many state sponsored journalists, he might just be busted for his links with jamaat-ul-dawa. regards anupam On 6/5/09, M Yousuf wrote: > http://dailymailnews.com/200905/29/news/dmtopstory01.html > > How India�s RAW manipulates, funds media > *By Makhdoom Babar > Editor-in-Chief > (Additional reporting by Christina Palmer in New Delhi, Sandra Johnson in > Washington D.C and Cherry Ferguson in London)* > > This is the age of information, the IT and above all the media, both print > and electronic. . It is said that after the renaissance of media across the > world, the wars are fought and won with the media being on the frontline. > Be > it US attack on Iraq or be it terror attack in India, the media is > immensely > used to propagate one�s views and perception. The media endeavors are > extensively manipulated to change the world opinion in own favor and > against > the enemy. Almost all the governments have given a free hand to their > respective intelligence agencies to manipulate media and fund the media > organizations and individuals to gain the required results. No matter if it > is the CNN journalists embedded US troops, invading Iraq or venom emitting > Indian journalists and TV Anchors targeting Pakistan after the Mumbai > carnage, the Intelligence hands are always their to direct them and to fund > them. > However, Indian Intelligence Agency Research and Analysis Wing (RAW)has > taken the issue more seriously than its contemporary agencies in the region > and even across the world. A comprehensive investigation into the matter by > the team of investigative journalists of The Daily Mail reveals that in > fact > raw moved into the direction of utilizing media factor almost 30 years > back. > In the mid 80s, when Rajiv Gandhi was the Prime Minister of India, RAW sent > a media related proposal to the Prime Minister�s Office (PMO) which was > straight away approved. According to this proposal, RAW was given a free > hand to use as much as required funds to make a solid grip on national and > international media. Initially, RAW came up with a long term project > through > which, RAW started short listing young, potential and ambitious Indian > journalists and later started penetrating them to different media > organizations across the world. Today, according to rough estimate, 90 > percent of the Indian or Indian origin journalists working in different > media organizations through out the world, are those having the RAW > blessings and one way or the other, promoting Indian perception and > delivering to the RAW�s requirements. The success of RAW in this direction > can be gauged from one fact that it has managed to get Indian journalists > inducted even in leading Chinese media organizations like the China Daily, > the Beijing Review etc. > In the 2nd phase, RAW started funding local media organizations in India > and > also started buying the services of journalists working in the foreign > countries� leading media organizations. According to a Japanese journalist, > who worked in India for a Japanese news agency for about 3 years, the > India-based foreign journalists are very well �look after� and > �entertained� > by RAW officials who develop interaction with these foreign journalists as > very warm but mysterious friends. These India-based foreign journalists are > at least once a year, are offered a vacation trip to Dubai where their > boarding, lodging and even shopping, are all paid off by their �friends�. > According to some reports, RAW is practicing the same with certain > Islamabad-based foreign journalists. > The Daily Mail�s investigations reveal that RAW started another project > around five years back under which Air Time is purchased on popular English > language international television channels and then during that air time, > special programs are televised to promote India�s view point with RAW�s > perspective. India Hour on BBC is one of the examples in this direction. > The Daily Mail�s investigations further reveal that RAW launched a mega > project to control regional journalists and to bring them to a secret RAW > platform when it established South Asian Free Media association (SAFMA) a > few years back. The SAFMA, the darling baby of RAW has so far been focusing > on highlighting the issue of Indian occupied Kashmir with RAW�s perspective > and nothing much or more. The members of SAFMA, whenever asked as to how > they manage to generate funds for the highly lavish functions and seminars > under its banners since all of them are paid employees of different media > organizations of South Asia, remain mum. > Back home, RAW is not only funding individual columnists and intellectuals > but is also comprehensively funding a number of newspapers and television > channels. RAW not only makes direct payments to a variety of regional and > English language newspapers but also arrange advertisement support for > these > media organization. Many of these newspapers are run as �projects� of RAW > and all assets are owned by the agency itself. Some the newspapers that are > getting regular RAW funding and patronage include India News, Aajkal, > Al-Hyndelyom, Asia News, Bharat Observer, The Christian Messenger, Daily > Excelsior, Daily Roshni, The Daily India, Dakhshan bharat, Deshdoot, The > Echo of India, Daily Greater Kashmir, Daily Jaihind, Kashmir Times, Kashmir > Observer, Maharashtra Times, Nagalnd Post, Daily Phayul, Rajdhani Times, > Daily Saij etc. These newspapers despite getting direct funding from RAW, > also have the blessings of getting government advertisements and > advertisements of leading Indian Business houses, having extraordinary > relations with RAW. Furthermore, all the Indian airliners have strict > orders > from RAW to purchase these newspapers for on-board circulation. Apart from > these newspapers support, RAW has also �gained� the �services� of different > columnists, reporters and analysts at top media organizations like Times of > India, Indian Express, The Hindu and Hindustan Times etc. > Coming towards the Electronic media of India, RAW has made remarkable > achievement in diluting media with Intelligence endeavors. It is not only > funding different anchors and analysts but RAW has established a huge > network in shape of ZEE T.V. Though RAW spends a huge chunk of money to > achieve targets by funding 9x News, Aajtak, NDTV 24x7, Times now, TV9, Time > TV etc, yet it runs the most venomous news Channel the Zee TV. Zee News�s > offices are considered to be Media Headquarter of RAW. > The Investigations of The Daily Mail further reveal that RAW controls a > whole paraphernalia of media network including ZEE TV and Films Network, > Asian News International (ANI) etc.. The ZEE network retains the pivotal > position in this RAW controlled propaganda and misinformation spiral. It > was > actually RAW that has been the master mind behind the establishment of ZEE > Television Network. According to our sources the proposal for establishing > a > private sector television channel actually under the control of Indian > intelligence agency was first presented to the Late Indian Prime Minister > Mrs. Indira Gandhi. The proposal could not materialize at that time as Mrs. > Gandhi had certain reservations about giving more powers to RAW for she > suspected it of being behind her earlier electoral defeat at the hands of > another Late Prime Minister of India Mr. Murar ji Desai. However, Indian > movie star Amitabh Bachan who was a personal friend of Rajiv Gandhi got the > cue. His brother later reportedly siphoned part of the Rs.64 crore > kick-backs of the Swedish Bofor guns deal into setting up a private > satellite channel by the name of TV Asia. > TV Asia enjoyed certain patronage from Indian government and intelligence > agencies though it was financed privately. In return RAW enjoyed certain > leverage on TV Asia; nonetheless its officials continued the campaign for > having their own channel. The break through was achieved when a high > ranking > RAW operative Vasant Parekh found a willing partner in the Chairman of > Essel > Group of Industries, Subash Chandra. The Essel Group was mainly involved in > the business of entertainment and amusement parks. Being an adventurous > entrepreneur, Chandra indicated his willingness to Vasant Parekh for > investing partly in the RAW�s satellite TV venture provided it also shared > a > big portion investment and backup support. RAW hierarchy did not require > much persuasion to dole out a hefty amount of US$ 25 million as an initial > participation share in the project. The deal was struck and the ZEE > Television Network was formally launched in 1992 with Subhas Chandra as the > Chairman and Vasant Parekh as the founding member on its Board of > Directors. > It was agreed to induct and employ a certain number of RAW operatives in > all > cadres of the network. RAW personnel were thus recruited amongst the > programme producers, anchors, newscasters, and even amongst the marketing > and business managers. The arrangement facilitates RAW to send its agents > undercover to Pakistan and even other countries. Having a media tag gives > these operatives an easy access to cultivate a number of personalities in > the target country, which would have been otherwise difficult. The broad > outline of the propaganda objectives of ZEE TV defined by RAW were: > �Undermine the ideological frontiers of Pakistan through oft repeated > Indian > rhetoric of cultural and social uniformity of South Asian sub-continent; > �Malign Pakistan by a deliberate negative projection of the events and > developments in the country. The aim was to systematically build a poor > image of Pakistan may it be in the context of internal political > developments, religious or social events, women issues, child labour, brick > kiln workers, Ahmedi or Christian minorities, secretarian clashes, Mohajar > ethnic movement, foreign policy or bilateral relations with India. Although > human rights violations, social, cultural, religious and economic problems > exist at a much gigantic proportion in India these were to be downplayed in > Indian context; > �Projection of India as a modern secular and progressive state which is the > world�s largest democracy; > �Propagation of India�s foreign policy objectives and its position on > Kashmir; > �Promotion of Hindu mythology through serials based on mythology as well as > soap operas telecast on the network; > In pursuance of this policy ZEE lays special emphasis in cultivating > prominent personalities in Pakistan for accomplishing the ideological > agenda. Bigwigs in Pakistani entertainment and show biz, poets, writers, > eminent sportsmen and politicians are a prime target. The common modus > operandi is that Pakistani celebrities are invited as chief guests or > special guests to various ZEE programmes. A lot of praise is showered, > calling them artists whose talent is not restricted by any boundary, > frontier or divide and that the people of the two countries love each > other, > only the politicians conspire to keep them separated. Overwhelmed by the > tremendous show of hospitality the artist either ends up unwillingly > endorsing the host�s views or says something that is construed to be > negating the �Two Nation� basis of Pakistan�s independence. According to > credible information RAW also sponsors organizing of performances, shooting > of videos and securing of contracts for Bollywood movies and entertainment > agencies for some of these personalities belonging to the Pakistan > entertainment, film and music. > The Daily Mail has learnt that RAW�s further tightened its noose on media > during the first government of BJP under the then Minister for Information > and Broadcasting Parmod Mahajan. RAW had in the meanwhile already taken > control of the struggling television news agency Asian News International > (ANI) founded by an ambitious cameraman Prem Parakash. When the agency ran > into financial troubles RAW came forth to help it with idea of producing > South Asia News line which all the Indian entertainment TV Channels not > producing their own news bulletins were force to telecast. Parmod > reportedly > threatened these channels with the sweeping powers under the PRASAR BHARATI > (Indian Broadcasting) ACT, 1990 Chapter IV, 23; �Power of Central > Government > to give Directions� if they did not comply. Even his successor Sushma > Swaraj > kept calling shots at the media also making coercive use of the draconian > Indian National Security Act, 1980. Three Advisory Bodies have been pivotal > in this regard to streamli mittee. The DFF amongst other things virtually > controls the films dealing with news, current events and documentaries. RAW > has a permanent representation on this Committee which can use any pretext > to penalize channels not receptive of its directives. > Our correspondent Saira Ilyas adds from London: The enormous success of ZEE > in South Asia and Middle East encouraged its sponsors to target the Asian > viewers in Britain and Europe. The prime objective was to disillusion the > expatriate Pakistanis and Kashmiris from their ideological basis. Britain > being the home of largest Kashmiri refugee community outside Asia has > become > a cause of concern for the Indian establishment. The growing influence of > Kashmiri community in the political circles of UK, their frequent protests > over the human rights violations in the Indian held Kashmir and demand for > the right of self-determination for Kashmiris is often embarrassing for the > Indians. > ZEE UK was therefore launched in 1995. The ZEE�s strategists, however, > realized that Braitain and Europe was a different ball game. To lure the > Pakistani expatriates it was decided to telecast a mix of Indian and > Pakistani programmes. It is learnt that a team was sent to Pakistan to > negotiate the purchase of PTV programmes for telecast on ZEE UK. ZEE was > able to procure from the PTV library many classical dramas, the most recent > hit telecasts, musical programs, special occasions telecasts for Eid, > Muharam, Ramadan including and other purely Islamic religious programs. > These programs were reportedly sold to the ZEE at throw away prices. The > PTV > establishment of the time credited itself for having sold the programmes > with no other clientele. Little did they know the diabolic use that ZEE had > planned for these programs. However, PTV authorities maintain that some of > its programs were recorded off air by a Lahore based spurious company and > sold to ZEE TV. Subsequently PTV obtained a court injunction to stop ZEE > from telecast of some of its programs. Nonetheless this gap is now filled > by > the private productions that have mushroomed in Pakistan over the last few > years. > The ZEE UK program managers ran an extra-mile in their endeavors to > establish it as a neutral TV of the entire South Asian community in Europe. > The propaganda against Pakistan was deliberately kept sublime in the > initial > year of its launching. However, it continued its policy of reporting > negative developments in respect of Pakistan and black outing positive > aspects may it be as non political news as winning a cricket match by > Pakistan. Nonetheless, ZEE�s one sided hype during events such as the > Kargil > conflict and later during the Mumbai terror attacks gave away any semblance > of neutrality that the channels had been portraying. The propaganda blitz > unleashed by ZEE since the take over by the BJP appointed RAW > administration > has exposed the real face of the channel and the Indian government�s > propaganda campaign; the Central Press Accreditation Committee (PIB), Film > Advisory Committee (DFF) and Hindi Advisory Committee. > It is popularly believed in the South Asian community in UK that ZEE-RAW > nexus was fully unveiled during the RAW staged hijacking drama of an Indian > airliner in December 1999. Throughout the hijacking drama ZEE newscasters > and expert panelists many among whom were actually undercover RAW > officials, > continued to narrate RAW orchestrated script like parrots in an > unbelievable > frenzy. ZEE was further exposed by completely biased reporting following > the > RAW staged spate of attacks in India after September11 such as the attack > on > the sham State Assembly of Indian Occupied Jammu and Kashmir, Indian > Parliament, US Consulate Calcutta as well as the 2002 border standoff > between Pakistan and India and lately the Mumbai carnage. > RAW prolific media network however received a setback when its sponsored > Reminisce Television Network (RTN) could not succeed in UK and Europe. The > free to air transmission of RTN�s Channel Asia 1 could not get enough > advertisements due to over crowding of the market by many Asian Channels. > The RTN also had an Urdu Channel ANJUMAN to target Pakistani viewers > besides > Gujarati, Lashkara (Punjabi), Bengali and other regional language channels. > RAW is now concentrating on ZEE and SONY Entertainment Television (SET). > This is just one case that The Daily Mail has presented here for its valued > readers across the world. The Daily mail is near to complete its > investigations about RAW�s relations to many other Television Channels and > newspapers of India and Aajtak-RAW nexus would be the 2nd of this series of > investigative reports. The Daily Mail�s investigations indicate that RAW is > spending at least 500 million to 700 million rupees on media organizations > and individuals per year and ZEE TV project is not included in this budget. > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > subscribe in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> From kaksanjay at gmail.com Fri Jun 5 14:56:01 2009 From: kaksanjay at gmail.com (Sanjay Kak) Date: Fri, 5 Jun 2009 14:56:01 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Fresh clashes rock Valley, mob targets Sikh locality In-Reply-To: <6353c690906050005v43e47e6el959dfb0fd19efaa2@mail.gmail.com> References: <6353c690906050005v43e47e6el959dfb0fd19efaa2@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <5c5369880906050226n6e07d734k525b7e726e169d26@mail.gmail.com> In our continued engagement with media truths, and for a more detailed account of the same incident ("fascist forces and sidelined separatist elements are targetting innocent minorities") do please see the following report from the Srinagar daily, the Rising Kashmir. I would particularly recommend the last few paragraphs. Best Sanjay Kak http://www.risingkashmir.com/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=13545&Itemid=1 JKLF, JaH play catalyst Communal tension defused in Rangreth Wasim Khalid Srinagar, June 04: The tension between two communities at Rangreth was defused by Jammu and Kashmir Liberation Front and Jamiat Ahlihadees on Thursday. Later, a large procession comprising of the members of the two communities led a massive pro-freedom procession in the area. On Wednesday, tension escalated between the majority and minority community in Rangreth area. As the tensions were brewing between the two communities, JKLF General Secretary, Ghulam Rasool Dar Idi, Jamiat Ahlihadees President Moulana Showkat Shah and senior district officials including DC Rafi Ahmad also reached the spot. Addressing the leaders of both the communities JKLF General Secretary Ghulam Rasool Dar Idi said nobody can deny the fact that Muslims being the majority community have to protect the minorities in all circumstances. “This situation is the creation of rumour mills,” Dar said. “We have to keep alert of unscrupulous elements who want to malign communal harmony and our freedom struggle.” Talking to Rising Kashmir, Maulana Showkat Shah said: “It was really heart breaking to know about communal tension. As soon as I came to know about the incident, I left for the destination to talk with both community leaders.” He said he called upon the leaders from both the communities to engage them in dialogue. “Apart from the locals of the minority community, there were members of Gurudwara Prabhandak Committee. A large number of youth from the majority community were also present,” Shah said. “We told them it is a very unfortunate incident. We told them Kashmir has history of communal harmony and brotherhood even if worst of times.” The religious cleric told both communities that in Islam, it is the responsibility of Muslims to protect the minority, their interests and property. “So we informed Muslims, we cannot go against the basic tenets of Islam,” Shah said. “The leaders of the minority community also said they would take action against the erring members.” He said both the parties agreed that they would not harm each other and the looming communal tension was eased off. Senior police officials including SSP Ahfadul Mujtaba and SP South Irshad Ahmad were also present during the negotiations. Earlier workers of PDP and NC member assembly Nasir Sogami, Agha Rohulla also went to Rangreth. But they faced hostile crowds and escaped from the spot. Earlier, BJP leader, Ashok Khajuria was debarred to embark plane from Jammu to Srinagar. Sources said he was planning to visit Rangreth and stoke communal unrest. Meanwhile, to express solidarity with each other, the members of the majority as well as the minority communities brought out a pro-freedom march. Raising pro-freedom slogans, people of both communities pledged that they would not play at the hands of unscrupulous element who want to exploit the situation. The protesters marched from Rangreth to Rawalpora bridge and back. Afterwards, Moulana Shokwat along with other leaders went to police station to free two youth who were arrested in the case. “They were released. And tension between two communities was settled amicably,” Idi said. The tension had erupted after an inebriated youth of the minority community driving a car hit a kid on the roadside. Afterwards, the boozer disembarked the car and started beating four boys of the majority community who were enroute to local playground Watching the inebriated youth rough up four boys of the majority community on the roadside in an area in Rangreth which has a fair population of the minority community, the members of other minority community mistook the majority community as accused for causing accident and attacked them with swords leaving a youth of the majority community injured. Following that, members of the majority community in surrounding areas attacked the residential houses of the minority community and broke their window panes. Authorities imposed curfew to prevent any untoward incident in view of communal reprisals. Nobody was allowed to go beyond Wanbal area toward Rangreth till Thursday afternoon. On Fri, Jun 5, 2009 at 12:35 PM, Aditya Raj Kaul wrote: > *The latest 'insider truth' is here for all to see. The fascist forces and > sidelined separatist elements are targetting innocent minorities. > > Fresh clashes rock Valley, mob targets Sikh locality* > *Indian Express* > *June 05, 2009 * > > *Srinagar *A predominantly Sikh neighbourhood on the outskirts of the city > was targeted by a mob as fresh protests and a strike triggered by the > alleged rape and murder of two women in Shopian continued to cripple life in > large parts of the Valley for the fourth consecutive day. > > A group of people ransacked 20 houses at Rangreth, breaking window panes and > damaging other property on Wednesday evening. Paramjit Kaur, whose house was > among those targeted, said: “It happened around 7.45 pm on Wednesday when a > group of people first started hurling stones. They broke our gate and > destroyed everything that came their way. I along with my children hid in > the attic to save ourselves from the frenzied mob.” > > “This had never happened in the past 20 years,” said Jaspal Singh, an > engineer whose house, too, was ransacked. A few cars were also damaged by > the mob. > > Locals said trouble began when a group of protesters enforcing the strike > stopped a car being driven by a Sikh. They damaged the car following which > there was a scuffle, in which one of the protesters was injured. This was > followed by the violence at Rangreth. > > The authorities reached the area to control the situation. “We held a > meeting with the Muslim and Sikh residents and later a peace march was taken > out by both of the communities,” said Budgam Deputy Commissioner Mohammad > Rafi. On Thursday, hundreds of Muslim women and men from nearby areas > thronged Rangreth and assured the Sikhs of their safety. > > Meanwhile, fresh clashes between protesters and the police broke out in > Srinagar and Shopian districts after news spread about the death of a > protester. Nisar Ahmad, 25, who was injured during protests on Monday, died > at a hospital on Thursday morning. At least 42 people were injured in the > fresh clashes. > > *editor at expressindia.com* > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with subscribe in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> From rakesh.rnbdj at gmail.com Fri Jun 5 14:59:37 2009 From: rakesh.rnbdj at gmail.com (Rakesh Iyer) Date: Fri, 5 Jun 2009 14:59:37 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] How India's RAW manipulates, funds media In-Reply-To: <341380d00906050127u6c42339dtcd96d9730c89cefd@mail.gmail.com> References: <19ba050f0906050104k120c3535g32a2e21f6f16feae@mail.gmail.com> <341380d00906050127u6c42339dtcd96d9730c89cefd@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: Dear all With such brilliant speculative stories, it's probably time both India and Pakistan dropped nuclear bombs on themselves so that such speculation can end for once and for all, and other nations also get lessons to learn on why to stop speculation. The other way out is to ourselves learn the lesson, also request Mr. Babar (I request you sir) to learn the lesson too, and stop such news items which have no proof. It's like Praveen Swami's articles in the Hindu, seems he is a police officer who is investigating and finding out such things himself, which is not the case. Regards Rakesh From pawan.durani at gmail.com Fri Jun 5 15:08:01 2009 From: pawan.durani at gmail.com (Pawan Durani) Date: Fri, 5 Jun 2009 15:08:01 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Fresh clashes rock Valley, mob targets Sikh locality In-Reply-To: <5c5369880906050226n6e07d734k525b7e726e169d26@mail.gmail.com> References: <6353c690906050005v43e47e6el959dfb0fd19efaa2@mail.gmail.com> <5c5369880906050226n6e07d734k525b7e726e169d26@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <6b79f1a70906050238w287ec1b6m615f917042d672c6@mail.gmail.com> http://www.kashmirlive.com/story/Fresh-clashes-rock-Valley-mob-targets-Sikh-locality/471524.html Fresh clashes rock Valley, mob targets Sikh locality A predominantly Sikh neighbourhood on the outskirts of the city was targeted by a mob as fresh protests. A predominantly Sikh neighbourhood on the outskirts of the city was targeted by a mob as fresh protests and a strike triggered by the alleged rape and murder of two women in Shopian continued to cripple life in large parts of the Valley for the fourth consecutive day. A predominantly Sikh neighbourhood on the outskirts of the city was targeted by a mob as fresh protests. Related StoriesFire destroys forest along LoC, mines explode in Poonch J-K Govt to present annual budget in Srinagar Women's death: Life remains paralysed in Kashmir Valley Three LeT militants killed in Doda in J&K Youth's death triggers fresh violence in valley, 35 hurt Srinagar A predominantly Sikh neighbourhood on the outskirts of the city was targeted by a mob as fresh protests and a strike triggered by the alleged rape and murder of two women in Shopian continued to cripple life in large parts of the Valley for the fourth consecutive day. A group of people ransacked 20 houses at Rangreth, breaking window panes and damaging other property on Wednesday evening. Paramjit Kaur, whose house was among those targeted, said: “It happened around 7.45 pm on Wednesday when a group of people first started hurling stones. They broke our gate and destroyed everything that came their way. I along with my children hid in the attic to save ourselves from the frenzied mob.” “This had never happened in the past 20 years,” said Jaspal Singh, an engineer whose house, too, was ransacked. A few cars were also damaged by the mob. Locals said trouble began when a group of protesters enforcing the strike stopped a car being driven by a Sikh. They damaged the car following which there was a scuffle, in which one of the protesters was injured. This was followed by the violence at Rangreth. The authorities reached the area to control the situation. “We held a meeting with the Muslim and Sikh residents and later a peace march was taken out by both of the communities,” said Budgam Deputy Commissioner Mohammad Rafi. On Thursday, hundreds of Muslim women and men from nearby areas thronged Rangreth and assured the Sikhs of their safety. Meanwhile, fresh clashes between protesters and the police broke out in Srinagar and Shopian districts after news spread about the death of a protester. Nisar Ahmad, 25, who was injured during protests on Monday, died at a hospital on Thursday morning. At least 42 people were injured in the fresh clashes. “This had never happened in the past 20 years,” said Jaspal Singh, an engineer whose house, too, was ransacked. A few cars were also damaged by the mob. Locals said trouble began when a group of protesters enforcing the strike stopped a car being driven by a Sikh. They damaged the car following which there was a scuffle, in which one of the protesters was injured. This was followed by the violence at Rangreth. The authorities reached the area to control the situation. “We held a meeting with the Muslim and Sikh residents and later a peace march was taken out by both of the communities,” said Budgam Deputy Commissioner Mohammad Rafi. On Thursday, hundreds of Muslim women and men from nearby areas thronged Rangreth and assured the Sikhs of their safety. Meanwhile, fresh clashes between protesters and the police broke out in Srinagar and Shopian districts after news spread about the death of a protester. Nisar Ahmad, 25, who was injured during protests on Monday, died at a hospital on Thursday morning. At least 42 people were injured in the fresh clashes. editor at expressindia.com On Fri, Jun 5, 2009 at 2:56 PM, Sanjay Kak wrote: > > In our continued engagement with media truths, and for a more detailed > account of the same incident ("fascist forces and sidelined separatist > elements are targetting innocent minorities") do please see the > following report from the Srinagar daily, the Rising Kashmir. > I would particularly recommend the last few paragraphs. > > Best > > Sanjay Kak > > http://www.risingkashmir.com/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=13545&Itemid=1 > > JKLF, JaH play catalyst > Communal tension defused in Rangreth > Wasim Khalid > > Srinagar, June 04: The tension between two communities at Rangreth was > defused by Jammu and Kashmir Liberation Front and Jamiat Ahlihadees on > Thursday. Later, a large procession comprising of the members of the > two communities led a massive pro-freedom procession in the area. > On Wednesday, tension escalated between the majority and minority > community in Rangreth area. As the tensions were brewing between the > two communities, JKLF General Secretary, Ghulam Rasool Dar Idi, Jamiat > Ahlihadees President Moulana Showkat Shah and senior district > officials including DC Rafi Ahmad also reached the spot. > Addressing the leaders of both the communities JKLF General Secretary > Ghulam Rasool Dar Idi said nobody can deny the fact that Muslims being > the majority community have to protect the minorities in all > circumstances. > “This situation is the creation of rumour mills,” Dar said. “We have > to keep alert of unscrupulous elements who want to malign communal > harmony and our freedom struggle.” > Talking to Rising Kashmir, Maulana Showkat Shah said: “It was really > heart breaking to know about communal tension. As soon as I came to > know about the incident, I left for the destination to talk with both > community leaders.” > He said he called upon the leaders from both the communities to engage > them in dialogue. > “Apart from the locals of the minority community, there were members > of Gurudwara Prabhandak Committee. A large number of youth from the > majority community were also present,” Shah said. “We told them it is > a very unfortunate incident. We told them Kashmir has history of > communal harmony and brotherhood even if worst of times.” > The religious cleric told both communities that in Islam, it is the > responsibility of Muslims to protect the minority, their interests and > property. > “So we informed Muslims, we cannot go against the basic tenets of > Islam,” Shah said. “The leaders of the minority community also said > they would take action against the erring members.” > He said both the parties agreed that they would not harm each other > and the looming communal tension was eased off. > Senior police officials including SSP Ahfadul Mujtaba and SP South > Irshad Ahmad were also present during the negotiations. > Earlier workers of PDP and NC member assembly Nasir Sogami, Agha > Rohulla also went to Rangreth. But they faced hostile crowds and > escaped from the spot. > Earlier, BJP leader, Ashok Khajuria was debarred to embark plane from > Jammu to Srinagar. > Sources said he was planning to visit Rangreth and stoke communal unrest. > Meanwhile, to express solidarity with each other, the members of the > majority as well as the minority communities brought out a pro-freedom > march. > Raising pro-freedom slogans, people of both communities pledged that > they would not play at the hands of unscrupulous element who want to > exploit the situation. > The protesters marched from Rangreth to Rawalpora bridge and back. > Afterwards, Moulana Shokwat along with other leaders went to police > station to free two youth who were arrested in the case. > “They were released. And tension between two communities was settled > amicably,” Idi said. > The tension had erupted after an inebriated youth of the minority > community driving a car hit a kid on the roadside. Afterwards, the > boozer disembarked the car and started beating four boys of the > majority community who were enroute to local playground > Watching the inebriated youth rough up four boys of the majority > community on the roadside in an area in Rangreth which has a fair > population of the minority community, the members of other minority > community mistook the majority community as accused for causing > accident and attacked them with swords leaving a youth of the majority > community injured. > Following that, members of the majority community in surrounding areas > attacked the residential houses of the minority community and broke > their window panes. > Authorities imposed curfew to prevent any untoward incident in view of > communal reprisals. > Nobody was allowed to go beyond Wanbal area toward Rangreth till > Thursday afternoon. > > On Fri, Jun 5, 2009 at 12:35 PM, Aditya Raj Kaul wrote: > > *The latest 'insider truth' is here for all to see. The fascist forces and > > sidelined separatist elements are targetting innocent minorities. > > > > Fresh clashes rock Valley, mob targets Sikh locality* > > *Indian Express* > > *June 05, 2009 * > > > > *Srinagar *A predominantly Sikh neighbourhood on the outskirts of the city > > was targeted by a mob as fresh protests and a strike triggered by the > > alleged rape and murder of two women in Shopian continued to cripple life in > > large parts of the Valley for the fourth consecutive day. > > > > A group of people ransacked 20 houses at Rangreth, breaking window panes and > > damaging other property on Wednesday evening. Paramjit Kaur, whose house was > > among those targeted, said: “It happened around 7.45 pm on Wednesday when a > > group of people first started hurling stones. They broke our gate and > > destroyed everything that came their way. I along with my children hid in > > the attic to save ourselves from the frenzied mob.” > > > > “This had never happened in the past 20 years,” said Jaspal Singh, an > > engineer whose house, too, was ransacked. A few cars were also damaged by > > the mob. > > > > Locals said trouble began when a group of protesters enforcing the strike > > stopped a car being driven by a Sikh. They damaged the car following which > > there was a scuffle, in which one of the protesters was injured. This was > > followed by the violence at Rangreth. > > > > The authorities reached the area to control the situation. “We held a > > meeting with the Muslim and Sikh residents and later a peace march was taken > > out by both of the communities,” said Budgam Deputy Commissioner Mohammad > > Rafi. On Thursday, hundreds of Muslim women and men from nearby areas > > thronged Rangreth and assured the Sikhs of their safety. > > > > Meanwhile, fresh clashes between protesters and the police broke out in > > Srinagar and Shopian districts after news spread about the death of a > > protester. Nisar Ahmad, 25, who was injured during protests on Monday, died > > at a hospital on Thursday morning. At least 42 people were injured in the > > fresh clashes. > > > > *editor at expressindia.com* > > _________________________________________ > > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > > Critiques & Collaborations > > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with subscribe in the subject header. > > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with subscribe in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> From c.anupam at gmail.com Fri Jun 5 15:30:00 2009 From: c.anupam at gmail.com (anupam chakravartty) Date: Fri, 5 Jun 2009 15:30:00 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Urgent Warden Message In-Reply-To: <6b79f1a70906050222n1b16c281rf9726cb0ffa60261@mail.gmail.com> References: <6b79f1a70906040149o484ffff1j32fa23f2d04fb5cc@mail.gmail.com> <341380d00906040823m79f3a905r279650ecb1b2f731@mail.gmail.com> <6b79f1a70906040833l1f627773q3b40033ffa0c712d@mail.gmail.com> <341380d00906040841h4756aa5p68c48631e78f1f25@mail.gmail.com> <6b79f1a70906042241o6304d17dje01562222352e525@mail.gmail.com> <341380d00906050012x442fc5d9r1bbb32dd7462a67b@mail.gmail.com> <6b79f1a70906050124w65a6e1den622579cb4557c149@mail.gmail.com> <341380d00906050148w52a8f7eck8586dfc2c3cf7b62@mail.gmail.com> <6b79f1a70906050222n1b16c281rf9726cb0ffa60261@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <341380d00906050300o257ec786i629129d8527a4e46@mail.gmail.com> Dear Pawan, are we arguing here to win? i have nothing against you particularly, its this warning visitor business which makes me uncomfortable. these are difficult times with fundamentalism from all quarters posing as a menace for all of us. it is the seeds sown by the western imperialist which is making them insecure because they know precisely where these threats are coming from. anupam On 6/5/09, Pawan Durani wrote: > > Ok Sir , > > You Win ... > > Clap Clap Clap.... > > pawan > > > On Fri, Jun 5, 2009 at 2:18 PM, anupam chakravartty wrote: > >> Now i know Pawan, which bunch of journalists you have been hanging out >> with >> lately which makes you such an informed citizen of the country (!) >> >> in this particular story, there is no remark by the American consul, that >> they had issued the warning in view of Hafiz Sayid's release. the exact >> quote that is ascribed to US diplomat Larry Shwartz: "There was >> speculation >> in the Indian media about enhanced terror threat in the country and we >> have >> an obligation to our citizens, so we have issued a travel advisory. It is >> nothing dramatic, but reflects the perception of the Indian media." >> >> SPECULATION IN INDIAN MEDIA forced them issue this warning. do you >> understand what the word speculation means? im sure with informed >> citizenry >> like you with your half hearted journalistic attempts are making it >> impossible for who are entrusted with this job to work. i have advice stop >> hanging out with those morons and think through your head. indian media is >> not just one person, its diverse...there are all kinds of people saying >> all >> sorts of things. just because it is IBN or EXPRESS or TIMES or INDIA TV or >> any blah and blah news organisation using it as a juicy lead to begin the >> story doesnt mean you have to take it as a truth. >> >> actually, FYI read this: >> >> http://www.expressindia.com/latest-news/Militant-arrested-in-Delhi-linked-to-JuD-chief-Police/471662/ >> >> and also even if they have caught this "terrorist" today, it doesnt mean >> one >> can issue such warnings based on these reports. >> >> P.S.: pawan jee kripya fake IPL blog padhne se thoda upar uthiye >> >> >> On 6/5/09, Pawan Durani wrote: >> >> > Anupam , >> > >> > You claim to be a journalist but think like what was the of Sreesanth's >> > name in Fake IPL Blog. >> > >> > Pls go through the report of CNN IBN on its website . It reads... >> > >> > " Hafiz Saeed , the terror mastermind behind 26/11 in Mumbai and the >> > Jamaat-ud-Dawa chief was released two days ago by a Lahore court for >> want of >> > evidence. In view of this, the United States has issued a travel >> advisory >> > for India and Pakistan. " >> > >> > http://ibnlive.in.com/news/india-upset-over-us-advisory/94188-3.html >> > >> > Atleast , though not being a journalist , i think like them . >> > >> > Regards >> > >> > Pawan Durani >> > >> > On Fri, Jun 5, 2009 at 12:42 PM, anupam chakravartty < >> c.anupam at gmail.com>wrote: >> > >> >> err...Pawan, may be you should head for the hills. u need some peace in >> >> life. as you are panic stricken. >> >> >> >> on second why dont you start staying inside a trench..you will be safe >> >> >> >> On 6/5/09, Pawan Durani wrote: >> >> > >> >> > Anupam , >> >> > >> >> > Just spend some time up in hills. You need a break. >> >> > >> >> > Pawan >> >> > >> >> > >> >> > >> >> > On 6/4/09, anupam chakravartty wrote: >> >> > > Dear Pawan, >> >> > > >> >> > > You might be living in a victory syndrome or loosing streak, for me >> it >> >> > was >> >> > > an loss of so many lives. a life lost in such a calamity is more >> >> > important >> >> > > that any country. but that doesnt mean you unneccesarily start >> posting >> >> > > american embassy communiques here...that too which are stale. these >> >> > warnings >> >> > > create panic among most sane and normal peace loving person. >> >> > > >> >> > > you end up propagating the similar ends that these terrorists have >> >> been >> >> > > trying to achieve -- create fear. >> >> > > >> >> > > anupam >> >> > > >> >> > > >> >> > > >> >> > > >> >> > > >> >> > > >> >> > > On Thu, Jun 4, 2009 at 9:03 PM, Pawan Durani < >> pawan.durani at gmail.com> >> >> > wrote: >> >> > > >> >> > >> Dear Anupam , >> >> > >> >> >> > >> Thank you for pointing out that i suffer from Paranoia. It was >> quite >> >> a >> >> > >> polite way to argue. >> >> > >> >> >> > >> Going forward , there would be many citizens of US who may be >> >> subscribed >> >> > >> to >> >> > >> reader list and may be interested in knowing what their Govt >> advises >> >> > them. >> >> > >> >> >> > >> After 26/11 , we live in a victory syndrome of having got over the >> >> > attack >> >> > >> on Mumbai , however I am sure US intelligence would have given >> their >> >> > Govt >> >> > >> much valuable feedback as well and we must not neglect how a >> foreign >> >> > >> nation >> >> > >> advises its citizen about travelling to our country. >> >> > >> >> >> > >> Wishes >> >> > >> >> >> > >> Pawan >> >> > >> >> >> > >> >> >> > >> >> >> > >> >> >> > >> On Thu, Jun 4, 2009 at 8:53 PM, anupam chakravartty >> >> > >> wrote: >> >> > >> >> >> > >>> dear pawan, >> >> > >>> >> >> > >>> FYI, this is a form of general warning issued since 2001 after >> 9/11 >> >> > >>> attacks. >> >> > >>> i think Pawan you suffer bouts of paranoia on behalf of >> Americans. >> >> here >> >> > i >> >> > >>> am >> >> > >>> NOT trying to defend hafiz sayeed's freedom but please stop >> creating >> >> an >> >> > >>> unneccesary state of fear in the reader list. >> >> > >>> >> >> > >>> can the moderator be slightly more responsible here? >> >> > >>> >> >> > >>> -anupam >> >> > >>> >> >> > >>> On Thu, Jun 4, 2009 at 2:19 PM, Pawan Durani < >> >> pawan.durani at gmail.com> >> >> > >>> wrote: >> >> > >>> >> >> > >>> > "effect of Hafiz Sayed being set free in Pakistan" >> >> > >>> > >> >> > >>> > June 2, 2009 >> >> > >>> > >> >> > >>> > >> >> > >>> > The United States Mission in India wishes to *urgently *remind >> all >> >> > U.S. >> >> > >>> > citizens resident in or traveling to India that there is a high >> >> > threat >> >> > >>> from >> >> > >>> > terrorism throughout India. As terror attacks are a serious >> and >> >> > >>> > growing >> >> > >>> > threat, U.S. citizens are urged to always practice good >> security, >> >> > >>> including >> >> > >>> > maintaining a heightened situational awareness and a low >> profile. >> >> > >>> > Americans >> >> > >>> > in India should be vigilant at all times and monitor local news >> >> > reports >> >> > >>> and >> >> > >>> > vary their routes and times in carrying out daily activities. >> >> > >>> > Americans >> >> > >>> > should consider the level of security present when visiting >> public >> >> > >>> places, >> >> > >>> > including religious sites, or choosing hotels, restaurants, >> >> > >>> entertainment >> >> > >>> > and recreation venues. >> >> > >>> > >> >> > >>> > For the latest security information, Americans traveling abroad >> >> > should >> >> > >>> > regularly monitor the Department's Internet web site at >> >> > >>> > http://travel.state.gov where the current Worldwide Caution, >> >> Travel >> >> > >>> > Warnings, and Travel Alerts can be found. Up-to-date >> information >> >> on >> >> > >>> > security >> >> > >>> > can also be obtained by calling 1-888-407-4747 toll free in the >> >> > United >> >> > >>> > States and Canada or, for callers outside the United States and >> >> > Canada, >> >> > >>> a >> >> > >>> > regular toll line at 1-202-501-4444. These numbers are >> available >> >> from >> >> > >>> 8:00 >> >> > >>> > a.m. to 8:00 p.m. Eastern Time, Monday through Friday (except >> U.S. >> >> > >>> federal >> >> > >>> > holidays). Americans are also encouraged to read the Country >> >> Specific >> >> > >>> > Information for India, available on the Embassy's website at >> >> > >>> > http://newdelhi.usembassy.gov, and also at >> >> http://travel.state.gov. >> >> > >>> > >> >> > >>> > U.S. citizens living or traveling abroad are encouraged to >> >> register >> >> > >>> > with >> >> > >>> > the >> >> > >>> > nearest U.S. Embassy or Consulate through the State >> Department's >> >> > travel >> >> > >>> > registration web site at >> >> > >>> > https://travelregistration.state.gov/ibrs/ui/so >> >> > >>> > that they can obtain updated information on travel and >> security. >> >> > >>> Americans >> >> > >>> > without Internet access may register directly with the nearest >> >> U.S. >> >> > >>> Embassy >> >> > >>> > or Consulate. By registering, American citizens make it easier >> for >> >> > the >> >> > >>> > Embassy or Consulate to contact them in case of emergency. For >> >> > >>> additional >> >> > >>> > information, please refer to "A Safe Trip Abroad" found at >> >> > >>> > http://travel.state.gov. >> >> > >>> > >> >> > >>> > U.S. citizens may contact the American Citizens Services Unit >> of >> >> the >> >> > >>> > Embassy >> >> > >>> > or the Consulates General for further information: >> >> > >>> > >> >> > >>> > -- The U.S. Embassy in New Delhi is located at Shanti Path, >> >> Chanakya >> >> > >>> Puri >> >> > >>> > 110021; telephone +91-11-2419-8000; fax +91-11-2419-8407. The >> >> > Embassy's >> >> > >>> > Internet home page address is http://newdelhi.usembassy.gov. >> >> > >>> > >> >> > >>> > -- The U.S. Consulate General in Mumbai (Bombay) is located at >> >> > Lincoln >> >> > >>> > House, 78 Bhulabhai Desai Road, 400026, telephone >> >> +91-22-2363-3611; >> >> > fax >> >> > >>> > +91-22-2363-0350. The Internet home page address is >> >> > >>> > http://mumbai.usconsulate.gov. >> >> > >>> > >> >> > >>> > -- The U.S. Consulate General in Chennai (Madras) is at 220 >> Anna >> >> > Salai, >> >> > >>> > Gemini Circle, 600006, telephone +91-44-2857-4000; fax >> >> > >>> > +91-44-2811-2027. >> >> > >>> > The >> >> > >>> > Internet home page address is http://chennai.usconsulate.gov. >> >> > >>> > >> >> > >>> > -- The U.S. Consulate General in Kolkata (Calcutta) is at 5/1 >> Ho >> >> Chi >> >> > >>> Minh >> >> > >>> > Sarani, 700071; telephone +91-33-3984-2400; fax >> +91-33-2282-2335. >> >> The >> >> > >>> > Internet home page address is http://kolkata.usconsulate.gov. >> >> > >>> > >> >> > >>> > >> >> > >>> > -- The U.S. Consulate General in Hyderabad is at Paigah Palace, >> >> > >>> > 1-8-323, >> >> > >>> > Chiran Fort Lane, Begumpet, Secunderabad 500 003; telephone: >> +91 >> >> (40) >> >> > >>> > 4033-8300. The Internet home page address is >> >> > >>> > http://hyderabad.usconsulate.gov. >> >> > >>> > _________________________________________ >> >> > >>> > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. >> >> > >>> > Critiques & Collaborations >> >> > >>> > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.netwith >> >> > >>> > subscribe in the subject header. >> >> > >>> > To unsubscribe: >> >> https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list >> >> > >>> > List archive: < >> https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> >> >> > >>> _________________________________________ >> >> > >>> reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. >> >> > >>> Critiques & Collaborations >> >> > >>> To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.netwith >> >> > >>> subscribe in the subject header. >> >> > >>> To unsubscribe: >> https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list >> >> > >>> List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> >> >> > >> >> >> > >> >> >> > >> >> >> > > _________________________________________ >> >> > > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. >> >> > > Critiques & Collaborations >> >> > > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with >> >> > subscribe >> >> > > in the subject header. >> >> > > To unsubscribe: >> https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list >> >> > > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> >> >> > >> >> _________________________________________ >> >> reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. >> >> Critiques & Collaborations >> >> To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with >> >> subscribe in the subject header. >> >> To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list >> >> List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> >> >> >> > >> > >> _________________________________________ >> reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. >> Critiques & Collaborations >> To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with >> subscribe in the subject header. >> To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list >> List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> >> > > From sammillerdelhi at hotmail.com Fri Jun 5 09:36:14 2009 From: sammillerdelhi at hotmail.com (sam miller) Date: Fri, 5 Jun 2009 09:36:14 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] My book In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Dear Friends My first book, ‘Delhi: Adventures in a Megacity’ was published this week in the UK by Jonathan Cape. I hope you'll enjoy the book, and tell your friends about it. Do tell me what you think – and it would be very helpful to me if you pointed out any errors. Apologies if you’ve read it already, or are not in the UK, but even so please pass this on to anyone who might be interested. It should now be available, in paperback, at your local bookshop in the UK, and if it isn’t please ask them to order it. It’s also available at http://www.amazon.co.uk/Delhi-Sam-Miller/dp/0224086103 The official launch party is not until Thursday July 16th at the Nehru Centre in London (invitations to follow) – but there are a number of other events before then:- First, there’s a session with William Dalrymple at Daunts bookshop on Marylebone High Street in London on Wednesday Jun 17th at 7PM (tickets are £5 – including wine - from the shop or call on 0207 224 2295). Then there will also be illustrated readings at two literary festivals - at Dartington (Sunday 5th July) and with Vikram Seth at the South Bank (Sunday12th July). The book should also be available soon in other Commonwealth countries. It is due to be published in America by St Martins Press in spring 2010 The book was published in India in January by Penguin India, and got some great reviews, has spent several months on the best-seller list and has just been reprinted in hardback. If you’re a Facebook user, do join the group for Delhi: Adventures in a Megacity. Have a look at the photos and see if you can work out where they were taken. Jonathan Cape will shortly launch a special website for the book. And finally, apologies to anyone who gets this message more than once… Full e-convergence is still a long way off. Lots of love, and best wishes Sam Publisher's note about the book: This is an extraordinary portrait of one of the world's largest cities. Sam Miller sets out to discover the real Delhi, a city he describes as being 'India's dreamtown - and its purgatory.' He treads the city streets, making his way through Delhi and its suburbs, visiting its less celebrated destinations-Nehru Place, Rohini, Ghazipur and Gurgaon-that most writers ignore. Miller's quest is the here and now, the unexpected, the ignored and the eccentric. Through his encounters with Delhi's people -from a professor of astrophysics to a crematorium attendant, from ragpickers to members of the Police Brass Band - Miller creates a richly entertaining portrait of what Delhi means to its residents, and of what the city is becoming. Miller is, like so many of the people he meets, a migrant in one of the world's fastest growing megapolises and the Delhi he depicts is one whose future concerns us all. Miller possesses an intense curiosity; he has an infallible eye for life's diversities, for all the marvellous and sublime moments that illuminate people's lives. This is a generous, original, humorous portrait of a great city; one which unerringly locates the humanity beneath the mundane, the unsung and the unfamiliar. Comments on the book: 'No other book on Delhi is quite as readable as Sam Miller's...' Khushwant Singh 'I have lived in Delhi for forty years and always wanted to read a book which I feel encompasses the whole of my city. Here it is . . . [It] is a wonderful read, but it's also a must for anyone concerned about the future of India and indeed democracy's future.' Mark Tully 'Sam Miller brings alive a lost city with passion and knowledge. For anyone who has even had a fleeting relationship with India's national capital, this is a must read . . .' Rajdeep Sardesai ‘Sam Miller has created a book that is both a quest and a love letter, and one which is as pleasingly eccentric and anarchic as its subject. Delhi: Adventures in a Megacity teems with strange stories and bizarre quiddities, rich discoveries and unexpected diversions. It will delight Delhi lovers and baffle and amaze those who have so far remained oblivious to its erratic but oddly addictive charms.' William Dalrymple Miller’s Delhi is the liveliest of city travelogues, a beguiling introduction to the Indian capital, and an irresistible read for even the faintly curious. John Keay ‘Sam Miller [is]… a combination of Richard Sennett and Mr Bean’ Narayani Gupta Get easy photo sharing with Windows Live™ Photos. Drag n’ drop MSN Battles We pitch one stalwart against the other and give you the power. Who will you vote for? Share photos while you chat with Windows Live Messenger. Get easy photo sharing with Windows Live™ Photos. Drag n’ drop MSN Battles We pitch one stalwart against the other and give you the power. Who will you vote for? Share photos while you chat with Windows Live Messenger. Get easy photo sharing with Windows Live™ Photos. Drag n’ drop Get easy photo sharing with Windows Live™ Photos. Drag n’ drop Get easy photo sharing with Windows Live™ Photos. Drag n’ drop MSN Battles We pitch one stalwart against the other and give you the power. Who will you vote for? Share photos while you chat with Windows Live Messenger. Get easy photo sharing with Windows Live™ Photos. Drag n’ drop Get easy photo sharing with Windows Live™ Photos. Drag n’ drop _________________________________________________________________ More than messages–check out the rest of the Windows Live™. http://www.microsoft.com/india/windows/windowslive/ From nc-agricowi at netcologne.de Wed Jun 3 12:11:58 2009 From: nc-agricowi at netcologne.de (VCH) Date: Wed, 03 Jun 2009 08:41:58 +0200 Subject: [Reader-list] =?iso-8859-1?q?=5BAnnouncements=5D_namaTRE=2Eba_-_v?= =?iso-8859-1?q?ideo_art_from_Bosnia-Herzegovina?= Message-ID: <20090603084158.4D96FC48.8850916D@192.168.0.3> VideoChannel - video project environments http://videochannel.newmediafest.org is happy to launch on 03 June 2009 a new video art feature online, entitled: namaTRE.ba- video art from Bosnia-Herzegovina curated by Igor Bosnjak, initiator and curator of namaTRE.ba Project Trebinje/Bosnia-Herzegovina, featuring video works by Dragana Andjelic, Mladen Bundalo Igor Bosnjak, Nenad Malesevic Miodrag Manojlovic, Mladen Miljanovic, Dajan Spiric To enter this feature go to--> http://videochannel.newmediafest.org/blog/?page_id=257. An article about namaTRE.ba Project on netMAXX -networked magazine - http://maxx.nmartproject.net/?p=58 is completing this feature together with 7 interviews with the artists/directors included in the feature on VIP - VideoChannel Interview Project - http://vip.newmediafest.org/?p=231 and finally the inclusion of the videos on VAD - Video Art Database - http://vad.nmartproject.net/?p=449 Full article see on --> http://videochannel.newmediafest.org/blog/?p=425 -------------------------------------------------------------------------- VideoChannel forms together with ColognOFF - CologneOnline Film Festival, VIP- VideoChannel Interview Project and VAD - Video Art Database an unity which is dedicated to art forms of film and video in the framework of [NewMediaArtProjectNetwork]:||cologne - www.nmartproject.net - the experimental platform for art and new media from Cologne/Germany. . info[at] nmartproject.net -------------------------------------------------------------------------- _______________________________________________ announcements mailing list announcements at sarai.net https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/announcements From dangijs at gmail.com Fri Jun 5 12:45:17 2009 From: dangijs at gmail.com (Jagdeep Dangi) Date: Fri, 5 Jun 2009 03:15:17 -0400 Subject: [Reader-list] [Announcements] Fwd: Remington Based Unicode Typing Tool... In-Reply-To: <1662afad0906040016u3ebcc7a2wa1797c4d804b9a91@mail.gmail.com> References: <1662afad0906040016u3ebcc7a2wa1797c4d804b9a91@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <1662afad0906050015l70cb93a6r5e6e80d372409cf4@mail.gmail.com> ---------- Forwarded message ---------- From: Jagdeep Dangi Date: Jun 4, 2009 3:16 AM Subject: Remington Based Unicode Typing Tool... To: ravikant at sarai.net Jai Hind Sir, I feel very glad to bring your kind notice that I have developed a unique Hindi software under the title "Prakhar Devanagari Lipik" for the typing in Unicode based Hindi/Sanskrit/Marathi (Devanagari Script) languages in Remington keyboard layout. Yesterday the same software is launched in public domain for demonstration, which is coveraged by Hindi media from Mumbai. For News coverage please visit the link below:- http://nukkadh.blogspot.com/2009/05/blog-post_28.html http://www.hindimedia.in/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=6602&Itemid=139 For demonstration of the new software please visit the link below:- http://www.4shared.com/file/106890584/8872ed8f/DangiSoft_Prakhar_Devanagari_Lipik.html Importance of this software:- Earlier for typing Unicode based Devanagari matters there are only two methods available. First is In-Script and Second is Phonetic English. Most of the Hindi typist in our country used Remington keyboard for typing Hindi, but for Unicode based typing there was no Remington keyboard available. So they had to learn new typing method such as In-Script or Phonetic, but both of them are very difficult to learn specially for Remington keyboard users. Special features of the new software:- Ø This new software is very useful for those users who are habitual in Remington keyboard using ASCII/ISCII Fonts for typing in Devanagari Script (Hindi, Marathi, Sanskrit etc.). Ø Also the matters written using this software can be searched on net using any search engine which was not possible earlier in case of ASCII/ISCII font based matters. Ø This new software also reduces typing complexity and increases accuracy. http://www.4shared.com/get/106890584/8872ed8f/DangiSoft_Prakhar_Devanagari_Lipik.html http://www.4shared.com/get/107234603/1eb7eb59/DangiSoft_Prakhar_Devanagari_Font_Parivartak.html Thanking You With Warm Regards -- Er. Jagdeep Dangi Ward No. 2, Behind Co-operative Bank, Station Area Ganj Basoda, Distt. Vidisha (M.P.) India. PIN- 464 221 Res. (07594) 222457 Mob. 09826343498 Profile: http://www.iiitm.ac.in/iiitm/Scientist_Eng/JDangi.htm -- Er. Jagdeep Dangi Ward No. 2, Behind Co-operative Bank, Station Area Ganj Basoda, Distt. Vidisha (M.P.) India. PIN- 464 221 Res. (07594) 222457 Mob. 09826343498 Profile: http://www.iiitm.ac.in/iiitm/Scientist_Eng/JDangi.htm -------------- next part -------------- _______________________________________________ announcements mailing list announcements at sarai.net https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/announcements From bangalorefilmsociety at gmail.com Thu Jun 4 13:14:11 2009 From: bangalorefilmsociety at gmail.com (Bangalore Film Society ,) Date: Thu, 4 Jun 2009 13:14:11 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] [Announcements] Call for Entry: Voices from the Waters 2009 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: *Call For Entries* *Voices from the Waters 2009* *4th International Water Film Festival, Bangalore* * * Bangalore Film Society, Arghyam, Svaraj- Society for Voluntary Action Revitalization and Justice, Finger Lakes Environmental Film Festival, Ithaca College, USA (FLEFF) Mountainfilm in Telluride, USA, Alliance Francaise de Bangalore, Charter of Human Responsibilities and Water Journeys - Campaign for Fundamental Right to Water with the support of Max Mueller Bhavan, Bangalore are organizing the fourth edition of the biggest international film festival on water- Voices from the Waters 2009 from Friday 4thSeptember, 2009 to Monday 7 th September, 2009. Established in 2005 to promote among the public an awareness of the myriad water-issues affecting our everyday lives either directly or indirectly and as a platform for alternate voices and views rarely heard in mainstream, Voices from the Waters started as a Bangalore-based Environmental Film Festival and over the 2007 and 2008 editions grew to be one of the largest, most diverse and dynamic platforms of debate, dialogue and celebration of the precious resource, the blue gold, life itself - water. We invite you to be a part of the festival by contributing short, documentary, animation and feature films (DVD format only) with English subtitles on water and related issues. *If you have a film in under any of the following categories:* 1. Water Scarcity, 2. The Dams and the Displaced, 3. Water Harvest, 4. Water Struggles/conflicts, 5. Floods and Droughts, 6. Global Warming and Climate Change, 7. Impact of Deforestation on Water Bodies, 8. Water, Sanitation and health, 9. River Pollution, 10. The Holistic Revival of Water Bodies, 11. Water and Life You can consider sending it to us. Please note that the categories are loosely conceived and your film does not have to necessarily adhere to them while focusing on the larger theme of water. Please find the entry form at www.voicesfromthewaters.com *Submission Deadline: 31st July 2009* *Guidelines:* Entries to the Film Festival must include 1. DVD of the film (with English subtitles, if required) 2. A completed and signed copy of the entry form 3. 3 high-resolution stills of the film (can be sent via email) 4. A high-resolution photograph of the director (can be sent via email) Promotional materials are welcome. There is no entry fee. All submitted films will be subject to a selection process by eminent members of the festival jury. Applicant must pay for shipment of films to Voices from the Waters. Submitted films will not be returned but will be part of Voices from the Waters library, one of the largest resources in the world for films on water. Voices from the Waters is conceived as a traveling film festival. The selected films after being premiered in Bangalore at the main event will be taken across to educational institutions, non governmental organizations, small towns and villages across India. -------------- next part -------------- _______________________________________________ announcements mailing list announcements at sarai.net https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/announcements From 2tahamehmood at googlemail.com Fri Jun 5 17:14:16 2009 From: 2tahamehmood at googlemail.com (Taha Mehmood) Date: Fri, 5 Jun 2009 12:44:16 +0100 Subject: [Reader-list] News Items posted on the net on Multipurpose National Identity Cards-121 Message-ID: <65be9bf40906050444v752cb3f2p1ec2b0885b852530@mail.gmail.com> http://www.ptinews.com/pti%5Cptisite.nsf/0/212A0AFBB5E86F17652575CA001EEA94?OpenDocument Govt serious on multi-purpose national ID: Qureshi H S Rao London, Jun 3 (PTI) Advocating a multi-purpose national identity card for Indians, Election Commissioner S Y Qureshi has said the Indian government was keen to introduce the concept to better manage citizen identity and national security issues. "We have been pressing the Government of India to have a National Identity Card. There is serious thinking to have a Single Multipurpose national Identity Cards," Qureshi said here at an interactive Session at the House of Commons. The idea of a Multipurpose National Identity Card (MNIC) was mooted by the Vajpayee-led NDA government in 2002, and later taken up by the UPA government. Aimed at addressing national security, the problem of illegal immigration and managing citizen identity, the project has been set in motion by the government which approved the setting up of a National Authority for Unique Identity under Planning Commission to oversee it. Delivering a lecture on the recent elections in India, Qureshi said while in the last elections 82 per cent of the 714 million voters were provided ID cards, in the next election 100 per cent voters would be covered. Asked why the election was a "too long-drawn affair" with polling spread over five phases lasting nearly a month, Qureshi said: "If we had enough security forces, we can hold the elections in one day." PTI From 2tahamehmood at googlemail.com Fri Jun 5 17:19:15 2009 From: 2tahamehmood at googlemail.com (Taha Mehmood) Date: Fri, 5 Jun 2009 12:49:15 +0100 Subject: [Reader-list] News Items posted on the net on Multipurpose National Identity Cards-122 Message-ID: <65be9bf40906050449n767a79f2wd4054a5630fe9efe@mail.gmail.com> http://economictimes.indiatimes.com/PoliticsNation/Unique-national-I-cards-in-3-years-/articleshow/4619224.cms Unique national I-cards in 3 years 5 Jun 2009, 0552 hrs IST, ET Bureau Each Indian citizen will have a unique national identity card in the next three years. Announcing this in her address to the joint session of Parliament, President Pratibha Patil said the implementation of the Unique Identity Card Scheme — which would facilitate identification both for security purposes and for availing of development programmes — would be overseen by an Empowered Group. Union home minister P Chidambaram had, soon after taking over late last month, announced the issue of multi-purpose identity cards to all residents in 2011, starting with the citizens in border and coastal areas. “The national population register will be ready by 2011 and the multi-purpose national identity cards will be issued to all residents in 2011,” he informed mediapersons. The work, Mr Chidambaram added, had already started in coastal areas as well as Andaman & Nicobar Islands. A pilot project for issue of identity cards has been undertaken in select districts across 12 states and Union territories. The proposed identity card is a smart card having a microprocessor chip. This is a secure card for which recommendation was made by the government-constituted technical committee comprising representatives from National Informatics Centre, IIT Kanpur, Bharat Electronics Limited, Indian Telephone Industries Limited, Electronics Corporation of India Limited and Intelligence Bureau. The identity smart cards are being issued to citizens of 18 years and more under the pilot project. They are expected to arrest both the entry of terrorist elements from other countries as well as illegal immigration from Bangladesh. From kmvenuannur at gmail.com Fri Jun 5 21:59:36 2009 From: kmvenuannur at gmail.com (Venugopalan K M) Date: Fri, 5 Jun 2009 21:59:36 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] The Grim Picture Of Obama's Middle East by Noam Chomsky (fwded) Message-ID: <1f9180970906050929m7ff20848h54d2a3b5a296fa81@mail.gmail.com> The Grim Picture Of Obama's Middle East By Noam Chomsky 05 June, 2009 CommonDreams.org A CNN headline, reporting Obama's plans for his June 4 Cairo address, reads 'Obama looks to reach the soul of the Muslim world.' Perhaps that captures his intent, but more significant is the content hidden in the rhetorical stance, or more accurately, omitted. Keeping just to Israel-Palestine -- there was nothing substantive about anything else -- Obama called on Arabs and Israelis not to 'point fingers' at each other or to 'see this conflict only from one side or the other.' There is, however, a third side, that of the United States, which has played a decisive role in sustaining the current conflict. Obama gave no indication that its role should change or even be considered. Those familiar with the history will rationally conclude, then, that Obama will continue in the path of unilateral U.S. rejectionism. Obama once again praised the Arab Peace Initiative, saying only that Arabs should see it as 'an important beginning, but not the end of their responsibilities.' How should the Obama administration see it? Obama and his advisers are surely aware that the Initiative reiterates the long-standing international consensus calling for a two-state settlement on the international (pre-June '67) border, perhaps with 'minor and mutual modifications,' to borrow U.S. government usage before it departed sharply from world opinion in the 1970s, vetoing a Security Council resolution backed by the Arab 'confrontation states' (Egypt, Iran, Syria), and tacitly by the PLO, with the same essential content as the Arab Peace Initiative except that the latter goes beyond by calling on Arab states to normalize relations with Israel in the context of this political settlement. Obama has called on the Arab states to proceed with normalization, studiously ignoring, however, the crucial political settlement that is its precondition. The Initiative cannot be a 'beginning' if the U.S. continues to refuse to accept its core principles, even to acknowledge them. In the background is the Obama administration's goal, enunciated most clearly by Senator John Kerry, chair of the Senate Foreign Relations Committee, to forge an alliance of Israel and the 'moderate' Arab states against Iran. The term 'moderate' has nothing to do with the character of the state, but rather signals its willingness to conform to U.S. demands. What is Israel to do in return for Arab steps to normalize relations? The strongest position so far enunciated by the Obama administration is that Israel should conform to Phase I of the 2003 Road Map, which states: 'Israel freezes all settlement activity (including natural growth of settlements).' All sides claim to accept the Road Map, overlooking the fact that Israel instantly added 14 reservations that render it inoperable. Overlooked in the debate over settlements is that even if Israel were to accept Phase I of the Road Map, that would leave in place the entire settlement project that has already been developed, with decisive U.S. support, to ensure that Israel will take over the valuable land within the illegal 'separation wall' (including the primary water supplies of the region) as well as the Jordan Valley, thus imprisoning what is left, which is being broken up into cantons by settlement/infrastructure salients extending far to the East. Unmentioned as well is that Israel is taking over Greater Jerusalem, the site of its major current development programs, displacing many Arabs, so that what remains to Palestinians will be separated from the center of their cultural, economic, and sociopolitical life. Also unmentioned is that all of this is in violation of international law, as conceded by the government of Israel after the 1967 conquest, and reaffirmed by Security Council resolutions and the International Court of Justice. Also unmentioned are Israel's successful operations since 1991 to separate the West Bank from Gaza, since turned into a prison where survival is barely possible, further undermining the hopes for a viable Palestinian state. It is worth remembering that there has been one break in U.S.-Israeli rejectionism. President Clinton recognized that the terms he had offered at the failed 2000 Camp David meetings were not acceptable to any Palestinians, and in December, proposed his 'parameters,' vague but more forthcoming. He then announced that both sides had accepted the parameters, though both had reservations. Israeli and Palestinian negotiators met in Taba, Egypt to iron out the differences, and made considerable progress. A full resolution could have been reached in a few more days, they announced in their final joint press conference. But Israel called off the negotiations prematurely, and they have not been formally resumed. The single exception indicates that if an American president is willing to tolerate a meaningful diplomatic settlement, it can very likely be reached. It is also worth remembering that the Bush I administration went a bit beyond words in objecting to illegal Israeli settlement projects, namely, by withholding U.S. economic support for them. In contrast, Obama administration officials stated that such measures are 'not under discussion' and that any pressures on Israel to conform to the Road Map will be 'largely symbolic,' so the New York Times reported (Helene Cooper, June 1). There is more to say, but it does not relieve the grim picture that Obama has been painting, with a few extra touches in his widely-heralded address to the Muslim World in Cairo on June 4. Noam Chomsky is Institute Professor (retired) at MIT. He is the author of many books and articles on international affairs and social-political issues, and a long-time participant in activist movements. His most recent books include: Failed States, What We Say Goes(with David Barsamian), Hegemony or Survival, and the Essential Chomsky. -- http://venukm.blogspot.com/ From indersalim at gmail.com Fri Jun 5 22:00:34 2009 From: indersalim at gmail.com (Inder Salim) Date: Fri, 5 Jun 2009 22:00:34 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] =?windows-1252?q?=91As_Hindus=2C_We_Were_Expected_T?= =?windows-1252?q?o_Further_The_Cause_With_Our_Stories=92?= In-Reply-To: <7271ec560906050025v3e6602ecua0c018757037069a@mail.gmail.com> References: <5c5369880906032322h52bc9d5fwb1a3953cf94096af@mail.gmail.com> <6353c690906040418j17f44fe4q2ad526a3b4af6eff@mail.gmail.com> <9A178570-2300-4D9B-9424-AB43553542F2@sarai.net> <7271ec560906050025v3e6602ecua0c018757037069a@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <47e122a70906050930q72903e36v21a86e08c433a6f7@mail.gmail.com> Dear All, In Kashmir, we usually sit in a corner of a room which is diagonally opposite to its entrance point: the door. It become our habit/tradition to be there, which makes us feel comfortable, but as and when a guest arrives we immediately offer him that space and move a little to towards the door. And if more guests arrive then you simply keep on moving closer and closer towards the door. You suddenly feel happy, that your own room is full of guests, ( OR DIFFERENT OPINIONS) Now as a guest, if you go to other’s room with a preconceived notion of acquiring the corner which is farthest from the door, you are spotted. In Kashmir there is a saying, Maji dopnam thazras behun ( mother advised me to sit at a higher place ) Perhaps, mother’s excessive love towards her child leads to such a suggestion, but it is a sign of stupidity if one actually performs that suggestion while entering the space of the other. In short we have to be humble, both, when we receive a guest or become a guest. ( BOTH WHEN WE OFFER AN OPNION OR ACCEPT) The other point which I would to add here, with regard to the reportage of Jammu Agitation about AmarNath Land dispute is that what about not reporting anything at all about such events. In journalistic practices it is a known belief that ‘Terrorists are dying for Media coverage’. But, it is not only limited to Terrorist outfits, I guess every other protest on the streets want a media coverage. This squarely means that Journalists are some sort of highbrows in our society without which we cant do anything. Just try going to Jantar Manter ( the only official protest point in Delhi ) with a Camera in your hand and see how different protest groups quickly re-assemble and start sloganeering for a photograph. There is A THEATRE in it. A language of our present system of living is embedded in it which involves the process of image making. It not a question of what is true and what is false, but perhaps, our loss of wisdom to something which never belonged to us in the first place. We make images of others with our ways of looking at it. We make images of ourselves with their ways of looking at it. The image, either through reportage in words or a photograph is never representational, and hence misleading if the consumer is not open to other suggestions. It is an endless process. Unfortunately, the meaning often runs away from the person who yearns some objectivity, which might have offered him a chance to frame an opinion, but alas, a little later, he often discovers that ‘ it was not so’. Simple M Pani's reportage of Jammu Agitation from a different wide angle is again just another respectable guest in the room, and as Shuddha suggested, that one wishes more such different perspectives....let there be are no full stops… Godard's amazing treatment to the Palestinian footage as watched by a family in France ‘ Here and Elsewhere’ , asks “ Where did the inability to see and hear these very simple images come from ? The film begins with a line ‘this film was titled VICTORY in 1970, and in 1974 it is called ‘ Here and Elsewhere’ . It is a wonderfully educational movie, and ought to be made compulsory for those who are working in Media and also who pose for their camera and mikes on the streets. So, images keep on changing the meaning, and we become part of it, unwittingly. To escape our fate is too radical a thought. We are somehow destined to float on the surface of these signs between rapidly changing textures of vast realm of signifiers and signifieds. So, imagine, if there were no newspapers, no photographs, no TV or Radio as in the past, what would be our ways of looking at things? I guess, we still would go out and eat some food, make a joke, develop relations and keep on living. With love is On Fri, Jun 5, 2009 at 12:55 PM, Rajendra Bhat Uppinangadi wrote: > Dear Sir, > > In all walks of life, we see the blacksheep in guise of professionals, > journalists are no exception just as judiciary and bureaucracy, who have > license to journalistic freedom of expression to use it for personal gains, > this surmise is primarily because the lady in question, questions the awards > extended to other journalists in her first para and then imagination runs > wild as if she is only the chosen writer, honest reporter, which is betrayed > by her rumblings as if the agitators were burning the trucks when all the > reporters were in favour of NOT, repeat, not reporting such acts of > vandalism.? And the post by the honoured Sanjay Kak is known for partisan > approach, lacks  the force in convincing the reader. > > There are enough human right activists, we can also call them "loose chaddi > pink socialites,"  who seem to be more particular about the rights of the > inhumans who indulge in perpetuating miseries on other lives in society, > with fanatism for faith, caste and religion.These activists forget about the > rights of the victims, come and obstruct rule of laws with high dramatics in > front of law enforcing authorities.Investigations are subverted and > prosecutions are delayed by these so called activists and truth never is > known to the  citizens in the society. That the NGOs work with vested > interest , atleast most of them is clear for citizens, in many supreme court > judgements, the worst exampe is of Kudremukh iron ore Co;where supreme court > went ahead and stoppd operations of this PSU, thus rendering about 30,000 > families jobless and clueless about their future, thanks to the NGO and its > fervent funds based misinformation campaign, inspite of good work of > afforestation by the PSU., complying with all conditions laid by the > authorities. The NGO and its talking head, who was just running around with > a katara scooter now zooms in a deluxe skoda.! > >  So much about social activism of NGOs and the vested interest in action > thru NGOs. But not all NGOs are that bad, many do yeoman service, albeit > quietly, without much fanfare, thus proving that there are many who like to > be in studios for personal glories rather than service to humanity.None need > to be surprise if they find this reporter in one of the tv studios shortly > on way to be being a celebrity. > > Regards, > > Rajen. > > "Notice, that once again, no effort is made by those on this list who > are heaping abuse on Simple Pani to rebut the arguments or > observations made by her on their own merit. All that is done is a > blanket denial of any credibility simply on the grounds that a > different voice has made itself heard. And that voice is given the > distinction of treason. She is all the more dangerous because she is > not the notional other.  First we heard - from the partisans of the > Amarnath agitation - "no one knows what is going on in Jammu, because > none of the people criticising the Amarnath agitation are in Jammu". > Now, that we have heard from someone who was in Jammu in that > critical period, she must be discredited on specious grounds that > have nothing to do with what she has said." > > > On Fri, Jun 5, 2009 at 2:12 AM, Shuddhabrata Sengupta wrote: > >> Dear all, >> >> I find it surprising how any expression of difference with the >> received wisdom of what exactly happened in Jammu during the days of >> the Amarnath agitation last year must be treated with this kind of >> callous and ad hominem attack. And since when do journalistic ethics >> include an endorsement of covering up the reality of the reporter's >> own experiences. I think the journalist in question has displayed a >> rare courage in breaking ranks and talking about the reality of the >> atmosphere of a news room as she saw it through a crisis situation. I >> wish there were more, not less people like her, in every newspaper >> and magazine. >> >> Notice, that once again, no effort is made by those on this list who >> are heaping abuse on Simple Pani to rebut the arguments or >> observations made by her on their own merit. All that is done is a >> blanket denial of any credibility simply on the grounds that a >> different voice has made itself heard. And that voice is given the >> distinction of treason. She is all the more dangerous because she is >> not the notional other.  First we heard - from the partisans of the >> Amarnath agitation - "no one knows what is going on in Jammu, because >> none of the people criticising the Amarnath agitation are in Jammu". >> Now, that we have heard from someone who was in Jammu in that >> critical period, she must be discredited on specious grounds that >> have nothing to do with what she has said. >> >> A loud voice does not make for a sound argument. >> >> best >> >> Shuddha >> >> >> On 04-Jun-09, at 4:48 PM, Aditya Raj Kaul wrote: >> >> > Wonder how many days the so called "ïnsider" has worked in Jammu. >> > Sitting in >> > the air conditioned office and filing stories is an altogether >> > different >> > deal. She seems to have not left the four walls or else confined >> > herself to >> > Orissa. >> > >> > The Jammu based media friends deny this allegation. This includes her >> > colleagues in the newspaper she worked for. >> > >> > The National media was anyway openly biased against the Jammu >> > agitation >> > against religious propaganda initiated by PDP and separatist elements. >> > >> > Simple M Pani should join Kak 'sahab' in documentary making. The >> > "valuable >> > insider account" (well thought, infact) may just lead to another >> > well funded >> > propaganda masala movie. >> > Such immature tales put the media to shame. Horrible. >> > >> > >> > >> > On Thu, Jun 4, 2009 at 11:52 AM, Sanjay Kak >> > wrote: >> > >> >> As an 'insider' account of the workings of India's mainstream press, >> >> and its professionalism and politics, this is a most valuable >> >> account. >> >> Best >> >> Sanjay Kak >> >> >> >> >> >> From Tehelka Magazine, Vol 6, Issue 22, Dated Jun 06, 2009 >> >> CULTURE & SOCIETY >> >> personal histories >> >> >> >> ‘As Hindus, We Were Expected To Further The Cause With Our Stories’ >> >> >> >> Simple M Pani >> >> Is 32. She is a journalist based in New Delhi >> >> >> >> Illustration: UZMA MOHSIN >> >> >> >> EVERY YEAR, I look starry-eyed at the awardees of the Ramnath Goenka >> >> Excellence in Journalism Awards and at the stalwarts handing over the >> >> honours. For grit, hard work, tenacity and honesty to the trade, >> >> without a care for reward, getting richly rewarded. But this year, I >> >> couldn’t quell a queasy feeling in my stomach when the virtues of >> >> fair >> >> reporting were spoken about at the event. This has been happening >> >> since the Amarnath land agitation, when I was reporting for the Jammu >> >> bureau of a leading national daily. It visited Jammu like a gale, >> >> sweeping away in gusts the sense of fair play and discrimination of >> >> many scribes. In our morning meetings, it was assumed as a given that >> >> being Hindus, we (reporters, photojournalists and other staff) >> >> supported the agitation for restoration of land to the Amarnath >> >> Shrine >> >> Board. Not only were we expected to support it whole-heartedly but it >> >> was considered our ‘moral’ duty to further its cause through our >> >> stories. It was routine for our editor to ask, “So how is the >> >> agitation faring in xyz place?” and an over-zealous colleague to >> >> answer passionately, “Excellent. It’s got a tremendous response >> >> there” >> >> and for the editor to rub his chin and say, “But find out what >> >> challenges they are facing in abc place and how it could be >> >> strengthened there.” If you were in Jammu, you had to sing paeans to >> >> the agitators. What smacked of fascism was that no other line of >> >> thinking, let alone criticism of any sort, was brooked. The few media >> >> houses that did judge it critically, were a woeful minority. >> >> >> >> Two quixotic features of the agitation stood out. First, to refuse to >> >> recognise the real. To pretend not to see something as stark as an >> >> economic blockade of the Valley, imposed by the stone-pelting >> >> agitators by attacking and burning Valley-bound trucks. (I’ve seen >> >> trucks burnt to rubble by agitators, on the Jammu-Pathankote National >> >> Highway, but naturally, it wasn’t considered newsworthy in several >> >> publications because the Jammu media had decided there was no >> >> blockade. This assumption ruled out any question of trucks being >> >> attacked.) This kind of dangerous, deductive logic crafting an >> >> alternative reality was rampant at the time. The storyline would be >> >> decided in the office and reporters would be asked to select data >> >> from >> >> the field to support it. For instance, to prove the nonexistence of a >> >> blockade, we would be asked to report that medicines were >> >> available in >> >> plenty in Jammu. If there were a blockade, then Jammu would be >> >> equally >> >> hit, ran the specious logic. In reality, Jammu faced a severe >> >> shortage >> >> of medicines! >> >> >> >> Second, to fancy the unreal as real, by drawing parallels between >> >> itself and the India’s Freedom Movement. Like praising the Emperor’s >> >> new clothes, which despite any empirical reality, were extolled to >> >> the >> >> skies. Eulogies of “those brave, nationalist, heroes,” the agitators, >> >> who went about uprooting railway tracks, smashing windows of public >> >> transport that dared to ply on the roads in defiance of the bandh >> >> call, and violently attacking trucks entering the state, filled reams >> >> of newsprint every day. Strangely, the mute common man of Jammu, the >> >> poor news vendor and hawker on the streets seemed to be more >> >> discerning than the city’s intelligentsia. They knew that there was >> >> much more to nationalism than flag-waving xenophobia. That sporting a >> >> ‘Bhagat Singh moustache’ wasn’t enough to equate one with the martyr. >> >> They knew that vandalism couldn’t pass for bravery and that they >> >> would >> >> have to repay the loss caused to the state from their pockets; all of >> >> which the intelligentsia missed, in a misplaced fervour. >> >> >> >> Despite the claim that the struggle was solely for the restoration of >> >> land to the Amarnath Shrine Board, the fact is it did degenerate into >> >> hate for the ‘other.’ Gujjars’ kullas were burnt in hundreds. The >> >> word >> >> “Kashmir” was knocked off from the Kashmir Square Mall, a Delhi-style >> >> mall in town, and was rechristened ‘City Square Mall.’ Such >> >> sentiments >> >> are dangerous for any civilised society, more so when the media, the >> >> supposed watchdog of liberal values, is gung-ho about it. >> >> >> >> From Tehelka Magazine, Vol 6, Issue 22, Dated Jun 06, 2009 >> >> _________________________________________ >> >> reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. >> >> Critiques & Collaborations >> >> To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with >> >> subscribe in the subject header. >> >> To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list >> >> List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > -- >> > Aditya Raj Kaul >> > >> > Freelance Correspondent, The Times of India >> > Cell -  +91-9873297834 >> > >> > Blog: http://activistsdiary.blogspot.com/ >> > _________________________________________ >> > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. >> > Critiques & Collaborations >> > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with >> > subscribe in the subject header. >> > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list >> > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> >> >> Shuddhabrata Sengupta >> The Sarai Programme at CSDS >> Raqs Media Collective >> shuddha at sarai.net >> www.sarai.net >> www.raqsmediacollective.net >> >> >> _________________________________________ >> reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. >> Critiques & Collaborations >> To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with >> subscribe in the subject header. >> To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list >> List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> >> > > > > -- > Rajen. > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with subscribe in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> -- http://indersalim.livejournal.com From kauladityaraj at gmail.com Sat Jun 6 00:35:54 2009 From: kauladityaraj at gmail.com (Aditya Raj Kaul) Date: Sat, 6 Jun 2009 00:35:54 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Minority Sikhs attacked by Majority Muslim community members in Kashmir, yet again. Message-ID: <6353c690906051205p49dd5c69ofcd4d83eb3bbb5f9@mail.gmail.com> *Communal clash at Rangreth averted* Excelsior Correspondent *Srinagar, June 4: *A scuffle which started after a cricket match between youngsters took an ugly turn and led to communal clashes in Rangreth area of Budgam district. Deputy Commissioner Budgam Mohammad Rafi, two National Conference MLAs and some prominent Sikh leaders had to intervene who finally managed to cool down the tempers between members of the two communities. Rafi said a fight over a cricket match yesterday led to stone pelting in which a vehicle driven by a Sikh was damaged, who allegedly retaliated by beating some youngsters belonging to the Muslim community. Later at night, a group of Muslim youth allegedly barged into the houses of Sikh community living in Rangreth and damaged vehicles and some household items. Outraged, some members of the community then took shelter at a nearby gurudwara and threatened to migrate out of the Kashmir valley if Government did not take any action. President of All Parties Sikh Coordination Committee Jagmohan Singh Raina alleged that many items like fridges and television sets, besides 18 vehicles were damaged. Situation in the area remained tense in the morning but later DC Budgam, MLA Budgam Aga Roohullah and MLA Amirakadal Nasir Aslam Wani rushed to Rangreth and managed to bring about a patch up between the two communities. Rafi also gave orders to assess the losses suffered during attacks on the houses of Sikh community and said the affected will be compensated. Members of both the communities then took out a "peace march" in the area. Rafi expressed satisfaction that the issue was resolved quickly saying the area is known for "Sikh-Muslim brotherhood". From kauladityaraj at gmail.com Sat Jun 6 00:45:55 2009 From: kauladityaraj at gmail.com (Aditya Raj Kaul) Date: Sat, 6 Jun 2009 00:45:55 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Scientist dies in Antarctica, cremation may be webcast Message-ID: <6353c690906051215v70ae3a6wcf5169bdcd5245e4@mail.gmail.com> *Scientist dies in Antarctica, cremation may be webcast * *Fri, Jun 5 08:55 PM* * * *Hindustan Times* The death of an Indian scientist in the icy continent of Antarctica has left his grieving family in Delhi in a state of bitter helplessness. There is no way to bring back the body before October due to six months of darkness and extreme cold. The family has reluctantly given permission to cremate him in Antarctica - which would be the first of its kind in that continent. Antarctica holds 90 per cent of the world's ice and is the southernmost continent, covering 14 million sq km. Kuldeep Wali, 57, a professional meteorologist with the India Meteorological Department (IMD), died of a massive heart attack on Monday. He is survived by his wife Rita Wali and daughter Anshu Wali. Rasik Ravindra, director of the National Centre for Antarctic and Ocean Research told HT from Goa on Wednesday, "With wind speeds above 45-50 km per hour and temperature at minus 15-20 degrees Centigrade, I am unable to say when the cremation will take place." He said, "The team will do the cremation with full dignity. We will take guidance from a pandit (Hindu priest) and communicate it to the team members." This is not the first time an Indian scientist has died in the icy continent. Four expedition members had died of carbon monoxide poisoning inside a camp in 1989-90. But their bodies were brought back to the country because it was summer. It still took three months for the bodies to arrive in India, Ravindra said.Science and Technology Minister Prithviraj Chavan met the family and told them that the government would try to show the live webcast of his cremation. Jeetu, Wali's niece said, "The family decided to have him cremated there as we are Kashmiri Brahmins and do not keep the body for such a long time after death.". Satyen Mohapatra From sabitha_tp at yahoo.co.uk Sat Jun 6 01:32:21 2009 From: sabitha_tp at yahoo.co.uk (sabitha t p) Date: Fri, 5 Jun 2009 20:02:21 +0000 (GMT) Subject: [Reader-list] Obama's in Cairo Message-ID: <86298.67447.qm@web25408.mail.ukl.yahoo.com> Monica and all,   There's more, this insightful article in the Guardian that sees that the terms of America's engagement with the Middle East doesn't change much in American foreign policy: http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2009/jun/04/barack-obama-middleeast   and this companion piece: http://angryarab.blogspot.com/2009/06/obama-speech-part-vapid-and-part.html   Sabitha. --- On Thu, 4/6/09, Monica Narula wrote: From: Monica Narula Subject: Re: [Reader-list] Obama's in Cairo To: "faiz ullah" Cc: "reader-list at sarai.net" Date: Thursday, 4 June, 2009, 10:32 PM Despite the president's soaring speech on partnering with the world,  one foreign-policy expert sees globalization splintering the Arab  Islamic world — to the tune of an Israeli air strike, Saudi-Iranian  proxy wars, more nuclear weapons, and Obama's tough re-election battle  in 2012. http://www.esquire.com/the-side/war-room/obama-cairo-speech-060409 Monica Narula Raqs Media Collective Sarai-CSDS www.raqsmediacollective.net www.sarai.net On 04-Jun-09, at 8:02 PM, faiz ullah wrote: > From The US Consulate.. > > > > 009 > > *REMARKS OF PRESIDENT BARACK OBAMA* > > *A New Beginning* > > *Cairo**, Egypt* > > *June 4, 2009* > > I am honored to be in the timeless city of Cairo, and to be hosted  > by two > remarkable institutions. For over a thousand years, Al-Azhar has  > stood as a > beacon of Islamic learning, and for over a century, Cairo University  > has > been a source of Egypt’s advancement. Together, you represent the  > harmony > between tradition and progress. I am grateful for your hospitality,  > and the > hospitality of the people of Egypt. I am also proud to carry with me  > the > goodwill of the American people, and a greeting of peace from Muslim > communities in my country:* assalaamu alaykum*. > >        We meet at a time of tension between the United States and  > Muslims > around the world – tension rooted in historical forces that go  > beyond any > current policy debate. The relationship between Islam and the West  > includes > centuries of co-existence and cooperation, but also conflict and  > religious > wars. More recently, tension has been fed by colonialism that denied  > rights > and opportunities to many Muslims, and a Cold War in which Muslim- > majority > countries were too often treated as proxies without regard to their  > own > aspirations. Moreover, the sweeping change brought by modernity and > globalization led many Muslims to view the West as hostile to the  > traditions > of Islam. > >        Violent extremists have exploited these tensions in a small but > potent minority of Muslims. The attacks of September 11th, 2001 and  > the > continued efforts of these extremists to engage in violence against > civilians has led some in my country to view Islam as inevitably  > hostile not > only to America and Western countries, but also to human rights.  > This has > bred more fear and mistrust. > >        So long as our relationship is defined by our differences, we  > will > empower those who sow hatred rather than peace, and who promote  > conflict > rather than the cooperation that can help all of our people achieve  > justice > and prosperity. This cycle of suspicion and discord must end. > >        I have come here to seek a new beginning between the United  > States > and Muslims around the world; one based upon mutual interest and  > mutual > respect; and one based upon the truth that America and Islam are not > exclusive, and need not be in competition. Instead, they overlap,  > and share > common principles – principles of justice and progress; tolerance  > and the > dignity of all human beings. > >        I do so recognizing that change cannot happen overnight. No  > single > speech can eradicate years of mistrust, nor can I answer in the time  > that I > have all the complex questions that brought us to this point. But I am > convinced that in order to move forward, we must say openly the  > things we > hold in our hearts, and that too often are said only behind closed  > doors. > There must be a sustained effort to listen to each other; to learn  > from each > other; to respect one another; and to seek common ground. As the  > Holy Koran > tells us, “Be conscious of God and speak always the truth.” That is  > what I > will try to do – to speak the truth as best I can, humbled by the task > before us, and firm in my belief that the interests we share as  > human beings > are far more powerful than the forces that drive us apart. > >        Part of this conviction is rooted in my own experience. I am a > Christian, but my father came from a Kenyan family that includes  > generations > of Muslims. As a boy, I spent several years in Indonesia and heard  > the call > of the* azaan* at the break of dawn and the fall of dusk. As a young  > man, I > worked in Chicago communities where many found dignity and peace in  > their > Muslim faith. > >        As a student of history, I also know civilization’s debt to  > Islam. > It was Islam – at places like Al-Azhar University – that carried the  > light > of learning through so many centuries, paving the way for Europe’s > Renaissance and Enlightenment. It was innovation in Muslim  > communities that > developed the order of algebra; our magnetic compass and tools of > navigation; our mastery of pens and printing; our understanding of how > disease spreads and how it can be healed. Islamic culture has given us > majestic arches and soaring spires; timeless poetry and cherished  > music; > elegant calligraphy and places of peaceful contemplation. And  > throughout > history, Islam has demonstrated through words and deeds the  > possibilities of > religious tolerance and racial equality. > >        I know, too, that Islam has always been a part of America’s  > story. > The first nation to recognize my country was Morocco. In signing the  > Treaty > of Tripoli in 1796, our second President John Adams wrote, "The United > States has in itself no character of enmity against the laws,  > religion or > tranquility of Muslims." And since our founding, American Muslims have > enriched the United States. They have fought in our wars, served in > government, stood for civil rights, started businesses, taught at our > Universities, excelled in our sports arenas, won Nobel Prizes, built  > our > tallest building, and lit the Olympic Torch. And when the first > Muslim-American was recently elected to Congress, he took the oath  > to defend > our Constitution using the same Holy Koran that one of our Founding  > Fathers > – Thomas Jefferson – kept in his personal library. > >        So I have known Islam on three continents before coming to the > region where it was first revealed. That experience guides my  > conviction > that partnership between America and Islam must be based on what  > Islam is, > not what it isn’t. And I consider it part of my responsibility as  > President > of the United States to fight against negative stereotypes of Islam  > wherever > they appear. > >        But that same principle must apply to Muslim perceptions of  > America. > Just as Muslims do not fit a crude stereotype, America is not the  > crude > stereotype of a self-interested empire. The United States has been  > one of > the greatest sources of progress that the world has ever known. We  > were born > out of revolution against an empire. We were founded upon the ideal  > that all > are created equal, and we have shed blood and struggled for  > centuries to > give meaning to those words – within our borders, and around the  > world. We > are shaped by every culture, drawn from every end of the Earth, and > dedicated to a simple concept:* E pluribus unum*: "Out of many, one." > >        Much has been made of the fact that an African-American with  > the > name Barack Hussein Obama could be elected President. But my  > personal story > is not so unique. The dream of opportunity for all people has not  > come true > for everyone in America, but its promise exists for all who come to  > our > shores – that includes nearly seven million American Muslims in our  > country > today who enjoy incomes and education that are higher than average. > >        Moreover, freedom in America is indivisible from the freedom to > practice one’s religion. That is why there is a mosque in every  > state of our > union, and over 1,200 mosques within our borders. That is why the U.S. > government has gone to court to protect the right of women and girls  > to wear > the* hijab,* and to punish those who would deny it. > >        So let there be no doubt: Islam is a part of America. And I  > believe > that America holds within her the truth that regardless of race,  > religion, > or station in life, all of us share common aspirations – to live in  > peace > and security; to get an education and to work with dignity; to love  > our > families, our communities, and our God. These things we share. This  > is the > hope of all humanity. > >        Of course, recognizing our common humanity is only the  > beginning of > our task. Words alone cannot meet the needs of our people. These  > needs will > be met only if we act boldly in the years ahead; and if we  > understand that > the challenges we face are shared, and our failure to meet them will  > hurt us > all. > >        For we have learned from recent experience that when a  > financial > system weakens in one country, prosperity is hurt everywhere. When a  > new flu > infects one human being, all are at risk. When one nation pursues a  > nuclear > weapon, the risk of nuclear attack rises for all nations. When violent > extremists operate in one stretch of mountains, people are  > endangered across > an ocean. And when innocents in Bosnia and Darfur are slaughtered,  > that is a > stain on our collective conscience. That is what it means to share  > this > world in the 21st century. That is the responsibility we have to one  > another > as human beings. > >        This is a difficult responsibility to embrace. For human  > history has > often been a record of nations and tribes subjugating one another to  > serve > their own interests. Yet in this new age, such attitudes are self- > defeating. > Given our interdependence, any world order that elevates one nation  > or group > of people over another will inevitably fail. So whatever we think of  > the > past, we must not be prisoners of it. Our problems must be dealt with > through partnership; progress must be shared. > >        That does not mean we should ignore sources of tension.  > Indeed, it > suggests the opposite: we must face these tensions squarely. And so  > in that > spirit, let me speak as clearly and plainly as I can about some  > specific > issues that I believe we must finally confront together. > >        The first issue that we have to confront is violent extremism  > in all > of its forms. > >        In Ankara, I made clear that America is not – and never will  > be – at > war with Islam. We will, however, relentlessly confront violent  > extremists > who pose a grave threat to our security. Because we reject the same  > thing > that people of all faiths reject: the killing of innocent men,  > women, and > children. And it is my first duty as President to protect the American > people. > >        The situation in Afghanistan demonstrates America’s goals,  > and our > need to work together. Over seven years ago, the United States  > pursued al > Qaeda and the Taliban with broad international support. We did not  > go by > choice, we went because of necessity. I am aware that some question or > justify the events of 9/11. But let us be clear: al Qaeda killed  > nearly > 3,000 people on that day. The victims were innocent men, women and  > children > from America and many other nations who had done nothing to harm  > anybody. > And yet Al Qaeda chose to ruthlessly murder these people, claimed  > credit for > the attack, and even now states their determination to kill on a  > massive > scale. They have affiliates in many countries and are trying to  > expand their > reach. These are not opinions to be debated; these are facts to be  > dealt > with. > >        Make no mistake: we do not want to keep our troops in  > Afghanistan. > We seek no military bases there. It is agonizing for America to lose  > our > young men and women. It is costly and politically difficult to  > continue this > conflict. We would gladly bring every single one of our troops home  > if we > could be confident that there were not violent extremists in  > Afghanistan and > Pakistan determined to kill as many Americans as they possibly can.  > But that > is not yet the case. > >        That’s why we’re partnering with a coalition of forty-six  > countries. > And despite the costs involved, America’s commitment will not weaken. > Indeed, none of us should tolerate these extremists. They have  > killed in > many countries. They have killed people of different faiths – more  > than any > other, they have killed Muslims. Their actions are irreconcilable  > with the > rights of human beings, the progress of nations, and with Islam. The  > Holy > Koran teaches that whoever kills an innocent, it is as if he has  > killed all > mankind; and whoever saves a person, it is as if he has saved all  > mankind. > The enduring faith of over a billion people is so much bigger than the > narrow hatred of a few. Islam is not part of the problem in combating > violent extremism – it is an important part of promoting peace. > >        We also know that military power alone is not going to solve  > the > problems in Afghanistan and Pakistan. That is why we plan to invest  > $1.5 > billion each year over the next five years to partner with  > Pakistanis to > build schools and hospitals, roads and businesses, and hundreds of  > millions > to help those who have been displaced. And that is why we are  > providing more > than $2.8 billion to help Afghans develop their economy and deliver  > services > that people depend upon. > >        Let me also address the issue of Iraq. Unlike Afghanistan,  > Iraq was > a war of choice that provoked strong differences in my country and  > around > the world. Although I believe that the Iraqi people are ultimately  > better > off without the tyranny of Saddam Hussein, I also believe that  > events in > Iraq have reminded America of the need to use diplomacy and build > international consensus to resolve our problems whenever possible.  > Indeed, > we can recall the words of Thomas Jefferson, who said: “I hope that  > our > wisdom will grow with our power, and teach us that the less we use  > our power > the greater it will be.” > >        Today, America has a dual responsibility: to help Iraq forge a > better future – and to leave Iraq to Iraqis. I have made it clear to  > the > Iraqi people that we pursue no bases, and no claim on their  > territory or > resources. Iraq’s sovereignty is its own. That is why I ordered the  > removal > of our combat brigades by next August. That is why we will honor our > agreement with Iraq’s democratically-elected government to remove  > combat > troops from Iraqi cities by July, and to remove all our troops from  > Iraq by > 2012. We will help Iraq train its Security Forces and develop its  > economy. > But we will support a secure and united Iraq as a partner, and never  > as a > patron. > >        And finally, just as America can never tolerate violence by > extremists, we must never alter our principles. 9/11 was an enormous  > trauma > to our country. The fear and anger that it provoked was  > understandable, but > in some cases, it led us to act contrary to our ideals. We are taking > concrete actions to change course. I have unequivocally prohibited  > the use > of torture by the United States, and I have ordered the prison at  > Guantanamo > Bay closed by early next year. > >        So America will defend itself respectful of the sovereignty of > nations and the rule of law. And we will do so in partnership with  > Muslim > communities which are also threatened. The sooner the extremists are > isolated and unwelcome in Muslim communities, the sooner we will all  > be > safer. > >        The second major source of tension that we need to discuss is  > the > situation between Israelis, Palestinians and the Arab world. > >        America’s strong bonds with Israel are well known. This bond is > unbreakable. It is based upon cultural and historical ties, and the > recognition that the aspiration for a Jewish homeland is rooted in a  > tragic > history that cannot be denied. > >        Around the world, the Jewish people were persecuted for  > centuries, > and anti-Semitism in Europe culminated in an unprecedented Holocaust. > Tomorrow, I will visit Buchenwald, which was part of a network of  > camps > where Jews were enslaved, tortured, shot and gassed to death by the  > Third > Reich. Six million Jews were killed – more than the entire Jewish  > population > of Israel today. Denying that fact is baseless, ignorant, and hateful. > Threatening Israel with destruction – or repeating vile stereotypes  > about > Jews – is deeply wrong, and only serves to evoke in the minds of  > Israelis > this most painful of memories while preventing the peace that the  > people of > this region deserve. > >        On the other hand, it is also undeniable that the Palestinian  > people > – Muslims and Christians – have suffered in pursuit of a homeland.  > For more > than sixty years they have endured the pain of dislocation. Many  > wait in > refugee camps in the West Bank, Gaza, and neighboring lands for a  > life of > peace and security that they have never been able to lead. They  > endure the > daily humiliations – large and small – that come with occupation. So  > let > there be no doubt: the situation for the Palestinian people is  > intolerable. > America will not turn our backs on the legitimate Palestinian  > aspiration for > dignity, opportunity, and a state of their own. > >        For decades, there has been a stalemate: two peoples with  > legitimate > aspirations, each with a painful history that makes compromise  > elusive. It > is easy to point fingers – for Palestinians to point to the  > displacement > brought by Israel’s founding, and for Israelis to point to the  > constant > hostility and attacks throughout its history from within its borders  > as well > as beyond. But if we see this conflict only from one side or the  > other, then > we will be blind to the truth: the only resolution is for the  > aspirations of > both sides to be met through two states, where Israelis and  > Palestinians > each live in peace and security. > >        That is in Israel’s interest, Palestine’s interest, America’s > interest, and the world’s interest. That is why I intend to personally > pursue this outcome with all the patience that the task requires. The > obligations that the parties have agreed to under the Road Map are  > clear. > For peace to come, it is time for them – and all of us – to live up  > to our > responsibilities. > >        Palestinians must abandon violence. Resistance through  > violence and > killing is wrong and does not succeed. For centuries, black people in > America suffered the lash of the whip as slaves and the humiliation of > segregation. But it was not violence that won full and equal rights.  > It was > a peaceful and determined insistence upon the ideals at the center of > America’s founding. This same story can be told by people from South  > Africa > to South Asia; from Eastern Europe to Indonesia. It’s a story with a  > simple > truth: that violence is a dead end. It is a sign of neither courage  > nor > power to shoot rockets at sleeping children, or to blow up old women  > on a > bus. That is not how moral authority is claimed; that is how it is > surrendered. > >        Now is the time for Palestinians to focus on what they can  > build. > The Palestinian Authority must develop its capacity to govern, with > institutions that serve the needs of its people. Hamas does have  > support > among some Palestinians, but they also have responsibilities. To  > play a role > in fulfilling Palestinian aspirations, and to unify the Palestinian  > people, > Hamas must put an end to violence, recognize past agreements, and  > recognize > Israel’s right to exist. > >        At the same time, Israelis must acknowledge that just as  > Israel’s > right to exist cannot be denied, neither can Palestine’s. The United  > States > does not accept the legitimacy of continued Israeli settlements. This > construction violates previous agreements and undermines efforts to  > achieve > peace. It is time for these settlements to stop. > >        Israel must also live up to its obligations to ensure that > Palestinians can live, and work, and develop their society. And just  > as it > devastates Palestinian families, the continuing humanitarian crisis  > in Gaza > does not serve Israel’s security; neither does the continuing lack of > opportunity in the West Bank. Progress in the daily lives of the  > Palestinian > people must be part of a road to peace, and Israel must take  > concrete steps > to enable such progress. > >        Finally, the Arab States must recognize that the Arab Peace > Initiative was an important beginning, but not the end of their > responsibilities. The Arab-Israeli conflict should no longer be used  > to > distract the people of Arab nations from other problems. Instead, it  > must be > a cause for action to help the Palestinian people develop the  > institutions > that will sustain their state; to recognize Israel’s legitimacy; and  > to > choose progress over a self-defeating focus on the past. > >        America will align our policies with those who pursue peace,  > and say > in public what we say in private to Israelis and Palestinians and  > Arabs. We > cannot impose peace. But privately, many Muslims recognize that  > Israel will > not go away. Likewise, many Israelis recognize the need for a  > Palestinian > state. It is time for us to act on what everyone knows to be true. > >        Too many tears have flowed. Too much blood has been shed. All  > of us > have a responsibility to work for the day when the mothers of  > Israelis and > Palestinians can see their children grow up without fear; when the  > Holy Land > of three great faiths is the place of peace that God intended it to  > be; when > Jerusalem is a secure and lasting home for Jews and Christians and  > Muslims, > and a place for all of the children of Abraham to mingle peacefully  > together > as in the story of Isra, when Moses, Jesus, and Mohammed (peace be  > upon > them) joined in prayer. > >        The third source of tension is our shared interest in the  > rights and > responsibilities of nations on nuclear weapons. > >        This issue has been a source of tension between the United  > States > and the Islamic Republic of Iran. For many years, Iran has defined  > itself in > part by its opposition to my country, and there is indeed a tumultuous > history between us. In the middle of the Cold War, the United States  > played > a role in the overthrow of a democratically-elected Iranian  > government. > Since the Islamic Revolution, Iran has played a role in acts of > hostage-taking and violence against U.S. troops and civilians. This  > history > is well known. Rather than remain trapped in the past, I have made  > it clear > to Iran’s leaders and people that my country is prepared to move  > forward. > The question, now, is not what Iran is against, but rather what  > future it > wants to build. > >        It will be hard to overcome decades of mistrust, but we will  > proceed > with courage, rectitude and resolve. There will be many issues to  > discuss > between our two countries, and we are willing to move forward without > preconditions on the basis of mutual respect. But it is clear to all > concerned that when it comes to nuclear weapons, we have reached a  > decisive > point. This is not simply about America’s interests. It is about  > preventing > a nuclear arms race in the Middle East that could lead this region  > and the > world down a hugely dangerous path. > >        I understand those who protest that some countries have  > weapons that > others do not. No single nation should pick and choose which nations  > hold > nuclear weapons. That is why I strongly reaffirmed America’s  > commitment to > seek a world in which* no* nations hold nuclear weapons. And any  > nation – > including Iran – should have the right to access peaceful nuclear  > power if > it complies with its responsibilities under the nuclear Non- > Proliferation > Treaty. That commitment is at the core of the Treaty, and it must be  > kept > for all who fully abide by it. And I am hopeful that all countries  > in the > region can share in this goal. > >        The fourth issue that I will address is democracy. > >        I know there has been controversy about the promotion of  > democracy > in recent years, and much of this controversy is connected to the  > war in > Iraq. So let me be clear: no system of government can or should be  > imposed > upon one nation by any other. > >        That does not lessen my commitment, however, to governments  > that > reflect the will of the people. Each nation gives life to this  > principle in > its own way, grounded in the traditions of its own people. America  > does not > presume to know what is best for everyone, just as we would not  > presume to > pick the outcome of a peaceful election. But I do have an unyielding  > belief > that all people yearn for certain things: the ability to speak your  > mind and > have a say in how you are governed; confidence in the rule of law  > and the > equal administration of justice; government that is transparent and  > doesn’t > steal from the people; the freedom to live as you choose. Those are  > not just > American ideas, they are human rights, and that is why we will  > support them > everywhere. > >        There is no straight line to realize this promise. But this  > much is > clear: governments that protect these rights are ultimately more  > stable, > successful and secure. Suppressing ideas never succeeds in making  > them go > away. America respects the right of all peaceful and law-abiding  > voices to > be heard around the world, even if we disagree with them. And we will > welcome all elected, peaceful governments – provided they govern with > respect for all their people. > >        This last point is important because there are some who  > advocate for > democracy only when they are out of power; once in power, they are  > ruthless > in suppressing the rights of others. No matter where it takes hold, > government of the people and by the people sets a single standard  > for all > who hold power: you must maintain your power through consent, not  > coercion; > you must respect the rights of minorities, and participate with a  > spirit of > tolerance and compromise; you must place the interests of your  > people and > the legitimate workings of the political process above your party.  > Without > these ingredients, elections alone do not make true democracy. > >        The fifth issue that we must address together is religious  > freedom. > >        Islam has a proud tradition of tolerance. We see it in the  > history > of Andalusia and Cordoba during the Inquisition. I saw it firsthand  > as a > child in Indonesia, where devout Christians worshiped freely in an > overwhelmingly Muslim country. That is the spirit we need today.  > People in > every country should be free to choose and live their faith based  > upon the > persuasion of the mind, heart, and soul. This tolerance is essential  > for > religion to thrive, but it is being challenged in many different ways. > >        Among some Muslims, there is a disturbing tendency to measure  > one’s > own faith by the rejection of another’s. The richness of religious  > diversity > must be upheld – whether it is for Maronites in Lebanon or the Copts  > in > Egypt. And fault lines must be closed among Muslims as well, as the > divisions between Sunni and Shia have led to tragic violence,  > particularly > in Iraq. > >        Freedom of religion is central to the ability of peoples to  > live > together. We must always examine the ways in which we protect it. For > instance, in the United States, rules on charitable giving have made  > it > harder for Muslims to fulfill their religious obligation. That is  > why I am > committed to working with American Muslims to ensure that they can  > fulfill*zakat > *. > >        Likewise, it is important for Western countries to avoid  > impeding > Muslim citizens from practicing religion as they see fit – for  > instance, by > dictating what clothes a Muslim woman should wear. We cannot disguise > hostility towards any religion behind the pretence of liberalism. > >         Indeed, faith should bring us together. That is why we are  > forging > service projects in America that bring together Christians, Muslims,  > and > Jews. That is why we welcome efforts like Saudi Arabian King  > Abdullah’s > Interfaith dialogue and Turkey’s leadership in the Alliance of > Civilizations. Around the world, we can turn dialogue into Interfaith > service, so bridges between peoples lead to action – whether it is  > combating > malaria in Africa, or providing relief after a natural disaster. > >        The sixth issue that I want to address is women’s rights. > >        I know there is debate about this issue. I reject the view of  > some > in the West that a woman who chooses to cover her hair is somehow less > equal, but I do believe that a woman who is denied an education is  > denied > equality. And it is no coincidence that countries where women are > well-educated are far more likely to be prosperous. > >        Now let me be clear: issues of women’s equality are by no means > simply an issue for Islam. In Turkey, Pakistan, Bangladesh and  > Indonesia, we > have seen Muslim-majority countries elect a woman to lead.  > Meanwhile, the > struggle for women’s equality continues in many aspects of American  > life, > and in countries around the world. > >        Our daughters can contribute just as much to society as our  > sons, > and our common prosperity will be advanced by allowing all humanity  > – men > and women – to reach their full potential. I do not believe that  > women must > make the same choices as men in order to be equal, and I respect  > those women > who choose to live their lives in traditional roles. But it should  > be their > choice. That is why the United States will partner with any Muslim- > majority > country to support expanded literacy for girls, and to help young  > women > pursue employment through micro-financing that helps people live their > dreams. > >        Finally, I want to discuss economic development and  > opportunity. > >        I know that for many, the face of globalization is  > contradictory. > The Internet and television can bring knowledge and information, but  > also > offensive sexuality and mindless violence. Trade can bring new  > wealth and > opportunities, but also huge disruptions and changing communities.  > In all > nations – including my own – this change can bring fear. Fear that  > because > of modernity we will lose of control over our economic choices, our > politics, and most importantly our identities – those things we most  > cherish > about our communities, our families, our traditions, and our faith. > >        But I also know that human progress cannot be denied. There  > need not > be contradiction between development and tradition. Countries like  > Japan and > South Korea grew their economies while maintaining distinct  > cultures. The > same is true for the astonishing progress within Muslim-majority  > countries > from Kuala Lumpur to Dubai. In ancient times and in our times, Muslim > communities have been at the forefront of innovation and education. > >        This is important because no development strategy can be  > based only > upon what comes out of the ground, nor can it be sustained while young > people are out of work. Many Gulf States have enjoyed great wealth  > as a > consequence of oil, and some are beginning to focus it on broader > development. But all of us must recognize that education and  > innovation will > be the currency of the 21st century, and in too many Muslim  > communities > there remains underinvestment in these areas. I am emphasizing such > investments within my country. And while America in the past has  > focused on > oil and gas in this part of the world, we now seek a broader  > engagement. > >        On education, we will expand exchange programs, and increase > scholarships, like the one that brought my father to America, while > encouraging more Americans to study in Muslim communities. And we  > will match > promising Muslim students with internships in America; invest in on- > line > learning for teachers and children around the world; and create a  > new online > network, so a teenager in Kansas can communicate instantly with a  > teenager > in Cairo. > >        On economic development, we will create a new corps of business > volunteers to partner with counterparts in Muslim-majority  > countries. And I > will host a Summit on Entrepreneurship this year to identify how we  > can > deepen ties between business leaders, foundations and social  > entrepreneurs > in the United States and Muslim communities around the world. > >        On science and technology, we will launch a new fund to support > technological development in Muslim-majority countries, and to help  > transfer > ideas to the marketplace so they can create jobs. We will open  > centers of > scientific excellence in Africa, the Middle East and Southeast Asia,  > and > appoint new Science Envoys to collaborate on programs that develop new > sources of energy, create green jobs, digitize records, clean water,  > and > grow new crops. And today I am announcing a new global effort with the > Organization of the Islamic Conference to eradicate polio. And we  > will also > expand partnerships with Muslim communities to promote child and  > maternal > health. > >        All these things must be done in partnership. Americans are  > ready to > join with citizens and governments; community organizations, religious > leaders, and businesses in Muslim communities around the world to  > help our > people pursue a better life. > >        The issues that I have described will not be easy to address.  > But we > have a responsibility to join together on behalf of the world we  > seek – a > world where extremists no longer threaten our people, and American  > troops > have come home; a world where Israelis and Palestinians are each  > secure in a > state of their own, and nuclear energy is used for peaceful  > purposes; a > world where governments serve their citizens, and the rights of all  > God’s > children are respected. Those are mutual interests. That is the  > world we > seek. But we can only achieve it together. > >        I know there are many – Muslim and non-Muslim – who question  > whether > we can forge this new beginning. Some are eager to stoke the flames of > division, and to stand in the way of progress. Some suggest that it  > isn’t > worth the effort – that we are fated to disagree, and civilizations  > are > doomed to clash. Many more are simply skeptical that real change can  > occur. > There is so much fear, so much mistrust. But if we choose to be  > bound by the > past, we will never move forward. And I want to particularly say  > this to > young people of every faith, in every country – you, more than  > anyone, have > the ability to remake this world. > >        All of us share this world for but a brief moment in time. The > question is whether we spend that time focused on what pushes us  > apart, or > whether we commit ourselves to an effort – a sustained effort – to  > find > common ground, to focus on the future we seek for our children, and to > respect the dignity of all human beings. > >        It is easier to start wars than to end them. It is easier to  > blame > others than to look inward; to see what is different about someone  > than to > find the things we share. But we should choose the right path, not  > just the > easy path. There is also one rule that lies at the heart of every > religion –that we do unto others as we would have them do unto us. > This truth > transcends nations and peoples – a belief that isn’t new; that isn’t  > black > or white or brown; that isn’t Christian, or Muslim or Jew. It’s a  > belief > that pulsed in the cradle of civilization, and that still beats in  > the heart > of billions. It’s a faith in other people, and it’s what brought me  > here > today. > >        We have the power to make the world we seek, but only if we  > have the > courage to make a new beginning, keeping in mind what has been  > written. > >        The Holy Koran tells us, “O mankind! We have created you male  > and a > female; and we have made you into nations and tribes so that you may  > know > one another.” > >        The Talmud tells us: “The whole of the Torah is for the  > purpose of > promoting peace.” > >        The Holy Bible tells us, “Blessed are the peacemakers, for they > shall be called sons of God.” > >        The people of the world can live together in peace. We know  > that is > God’s vision. Now, that must be our work here on Earth. Thank you.  > And may > God’s peace be upon you. > > > -- > faiz > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with  > subscribe in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> _________________________________________ reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. Critiques & Collaborations To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with subscribe in the subject header. To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> Explore and discover exciting holidays and getaways with Yahoo! India Travel Click here! Cricket on your mind? Visit the ultimate cricket website. Enter http://beta.cricket.yahoo.com From sabitha_tp at yahoo.co.uk Sat Jun 6 01:40:16 2009 From: sabitha_tp at yahoo.co.uk (sabitha t p) Date: Fri, 5 Jun 2009 20:10:16 +0000 (GMT) Subject: [Reader-list] Obama's in Cairo Message-ID: <790330.99827.qm@web25405.mail.ukl.yahoo.com> And here is an essay by Zizek on "tolerance" that alerts to the theoretical limitations of liberal "freedom of choice" (sorry if I cross-post):   http://criticalinquiry.uchicago.edu/issues/v28/v28n2.zizek.html Explore and discover exciting holidays and getaways with Yahoo! India Travel http://in.travel.yahoo.com/ From pawan.durani at gmail.com Sat Jun 6 09:34:21 2009 From: pawan.durani at gmail.com (Pawan Durani) Date: Sat, 6 Jun 2009 09:34:21 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Massacres - 6 Message-ID: <6b79f1a70906052104wba9fccax75ada16546ca6da6@mail.gmail.com> Wandhama’s agony retold Wandhama failed to live up to its name everytime in recent history. Wandhama in Kashmiri means ‘hot in winter’ i.e. providing comfort to its people. There is an interesting story about how Wandhama came to be inhabited by human population. In old days gone by, it was a dense forest, full of thorny bushes called by Kashmiris as Krahdazand. Extreme poverty forced Mansa Ram Bhat and his brother, Ramchand to abandon their ancestral village Kaloosa in Bandipore. While Ramchand settled down in Manigam, Mansa Ram came to Wandhama. Mansa Ram had a big family of seven sons to support. He spent first year taking shelter under the thick Krahdazand. Then he built a thatched small hut called Pahri during the second season. Soon two more families of Naba Shah, a Pir family and Babas, a peasant family came and settled down in Wandhama. The descendants of three families today form more than ninety families. Of these twelve families are Kashmiri Pandits. Most of the Peers have deserted the village. The ethnic-cleansing of Kashmiri Hindus has made Wandhama a one community village now. Tribal Raid: On the eve of the tribal raid, six Pandit families of Narayan Bhat, Tarak Bhat, Govind Bhat, Shankar Bhat, Prasad Bhat and Maheshwar Nath Bhat were living peacefully in the Pandit Mohalla of the village. Diversion of raiders to Sumbal made Pandits of Wandhama vulnerable to attacks. In Wandhama, National Conference influence was virtually non-existent. Saifullah Shah (Peer) was the local politician, who owed allegiance to pro-Pak Muslim Conference. His house was situated at one end of the village, bordering Barsoo. Despite tension, Kashmiri Pandits of Wandhama had refused to leave. They belonged to poor peasantry section of the village. Extreme insecurity forced them to stay put in the village. When raiders entered Sumbal, Saifullah Shah invited them for a dinner. Raiders stayed in Wandhama for two days. Locals informed Pandits that raiders had come to Saifullah’s house and for their safety it was desirable that they must move out. All the six families left but separately. Some left in the evening and some later during the night. However, one member from each family stayed back. Shankar Bhat, Maheshwar Nath, Ram Bhat, Tarak Bhat, Sarvanand Bhat and Narain Bhat hoped to salvage their property. After Pandit families moved out, two Muslim Conference workers Kamal Sheikh and Ahad Sheikh of the adjoining village, Thiur hoisted Pakistani flags over their houses. Soon after, a local mob instigated by AS Shah of Wandhama came to loot and burn Pandit houses. Kashmiri Pandits who had stayed back on seeing looters apprehended danger to their lives. They managed to escape, before the looters could burn the houses. Loot was started in their presence. Even Paddy stores of Pandits were opened and looted. These Pandits could not keep contact with one another when loot started and left individually. While moving towards Srinagar, Indian Army mistook them for tribal raiders. Narain Bhat was killed at Beehama, while Tarachand and Moshar Nath were injured at Duderhama. Narayan Bhat’s body lay on road for three days. It was cremated later by two Pandit volunteers. Wandhama Pandits were lodged in a refugee camp at Shiv Mandir in Rainawari. Raiders were seven in number and left after Indian Army reached Wandhama. Those days justice was speedy. Strong action was taken against Saifullah Shah and three other Muslim Conference workers who had hoisted Pakistani flags. Saifullah was arrested and died in jail. His two sons Ahmed Syed and Mohiuddin left behind their families in Wandhama and went to Pakistan. They remarried there and never came back. Rise of Terrorism: After tribal raid, Badri Nath Dhar from adjoining Laar village settled down in Wandhama. In 1990, when the terrorists put the Pandit community on hit list, Narayan Bhat’s family took no chances. It migrated along with eight other families of Wandhama. A big mob from Barsoo had came and entered Pandit courtyards. They had used abusive and provocative language asking Pandits to leave. Pandit Sudershan Bhat, who was among those killed in 1998 massacre also advised his son Dileep Kumar and his two daughters to leave. Dileep had received some threats. Only Sudershan, his brother and Mrs Sudershan Bhat stayed back. Dileep had met his parents last time in January 1996. His parent’s last communication to him was in the forum of a letter in December, 1997 in which they had mentioned that they would visit them by January-end. But that was not to be. After putting plan of ethnic-cleansing of Pandits into action, terrorists allowed few pockets of Kashmiri Pandits to stay on. It served a dual purpose. To the international gallery they claimed that their terrorists movement was non-communal and cited the instance of these Pandits. Secondly, when government drew up any plan for return of Kashmiri Pandits or the terrorists wanted to make big news, these ‘captive’ Pandits were made the soft targets. This has been happening since April 1997 Sangrampura massacre. Terrorists would dole out false assurances of safety to these ‘captive Pandits’. Assadullah Mir, a hardcore terrorist and local ‘commander’ of Hizbul Mujahideen had also told Wandhama Pandits, “you are safe were”. Wandhama Pandits continued to live on his “assurances” and also on the security guaranteed by a security pocket. Wandhama was waiting to happen. In the first week of January, 1998 two militants were killed in Wandhama in an encounter. The entire belt from Safapur to Kangan had become a free zone for foreign mercenaries. Media reports even talked about the political patronage these mercenaries enjoyed from the local politicians. For reasons best known to them, neither the state government nor the Army bothered to launch any concrete counter-insurgency campaign to throw away these mercenaries and deny them the hideouts. This despite the fact that a strategic national highway passes through this belt. Secondly, the state government made experimentations to enact a tokenist return of Pandits to soften lobbies at Centre, which pressed it for return of displaced Pandits. It made these experimentations in the absence of any concrete and cogent policy frame work for minority protection. Earlier also, when NC government built media hype on Pandits’ return, seven innocent Hindus were woken up in the middle of the night at Sangrampora on 22nd March, 1997 and brutally massacred. NC government was making attempts to enact a tokenist return on the eve of Wandhama massacre. It is established by circumstantial evidence. A virtually non-existent group Nov Soan Kashmir Front had sent its members to Srinagar on January 25. It wanted to impress upon that fears of Displaced Kashmiri Hindus were exaggerated. Its activist Vinod Bhat was quoted by a national daily as having said, “the ghost of threat that was clinging us so far is no more troubling us. We are roaming freely in various parts of Srinagar city without any fear. Our main object is to visualise the thoughts of Muslims regarding we people. This fear is basically nothing but media-hype”. Only hours later occurred the Wandhama carnage. Shadi Lal, the leader of the group reacted by claiming, “Kashmiri militants can never indulge in such barbaric act. This is the work of fanatic mercenaries who know only to kill, kill...” The Divisional Commissioner remarked, “I don’t understand what for they want to go there. Everybody who is surviving has bid adieu to the place, so with whom will they talk.” A splinter faction of Panun Kashmir had also said that it would declare the so-called return module at a function in New Delhi, which was to coincide with the Republic Day. Unmindful of Wandhama carnage, Abdul Ahad Vakil, Minister of Revenue and Rehabilitation in his address to the Republic Day gathering at the Bakshi Stadium had said, “The state government is making efforts for the safe return of the Kashmiri Pandits. We will not let any stone unturned to get them back as they are part of our culture and heritage”. Carnage: Terrorists struck on the intervening night of January 25 and January 26. Eyewitness accounts said twenty five terrorists in army dress swooped on the village at around 10 PM on Sunday. The terrorists first entered the house of Moti Lal Bhat, a Medical assistant in a local dispensary. From here groups of four terrorists were sent to other Pandit houses and the rest were asked to cordon the village. Moti Lal was a popular medical practitioner in the area and treated everybody who came for help with compassion. The family of his niece, Pinki had come from Shopian to fix up an engagement proposal for one of his children. Her husband, Shadi Lal had been recently transferred to Ganderbal as a wireless operator. In Badri Nath’s house, there was a knock. Bearded terrorists, clad in Army dress asked permission to enter. It was not unusual for the family to give entry to such people in the past. The terrorists demanded tea which was served to them. Badri Nath’s family had come from Laar after 1947 and settled down in Wandhama. Around 11 PM, Badri Nath’s family had come to know that three other Pandit families living nearby were entertaining similar guests. After the tea was served to them, Badri Nath’s family members asked terrorists when would they leave. The terrorists assured them not to worry and said they would move out soon. One of the gunmen told Vinod (14) son of Badri Nath, “you are talking sweetly, we will not kill you”. An hour later the radio set carried by one terrorists turned on and some one from other side cracked a message “poora gaon cordon ho gaya hai” (entire village has been cordoned). That was the moment one of the gunman stood up and ordered to shoot the family members down. Vinod alias Ashoo himself quickly sneaked to take refuge in the upper storey of his house. He heard bursts of gunfire and people shrieking. Vinod hid himself under the heap of dried cow-dung stored there. Within fifteen minutes everything fell silent. He was now the lone survivor among twenty-four Kashmiri Pandits who were staying in Wandhama. Terrorists before escaping set ablaze the house of Moti Lal and the local temple. The gunmen in other three houses had also resorted to indiscriminate firing killing 1`5 Hindus. After the guns fell silent, Vinod came down to see the fate of his five family members. He thought that the villagers could provide help to his family members. To his dismay the villagers had gone to mosque for offering night long prayers on the occasion of Shab-i-Qadr. There are different versions how the locals reacted after the massacre. According to one version locals heard the gun shots while they were offering prayers in the local mosque. They came out and visited the scene of devastation. Later they went to the Army camp at Barsoo, 3 kms away and informed the officers about the incident. As per locals, the Army refused to visit the village. Other reports said a group of women raised an alarm outside the mosque and informed the men-folk that the Pandit, houses had been attacked. The villagers seeing Moti Lal’s house and temple in flames deserted the village and returned only in the morning. Moti Lal’s limbs had been chopped off by the terrorists. Among the victims was a one-year old boy who had received 18 bullet wounds. When correspondents visited Wandhama next morning, the small area behind the house of Moti Lal looked like a slaughter house. 17 bullet-ridden bodies were lying in a pool of blood. The policemen were pulling out charred bodies of six, including two women and two minors. A mother had unsuccessfully tried to save her infant by hiding him in her lap but both got killed together. The cop trying to separate them couldn’t. There was burning smell of the human flesh everywhere. Muzamil Jaleel, of Indian Express who went to cover the Wandhama massacre wrote, “As the flames of Moti Lal’s and Badri Nath's houses were being extinguished, there was a feeling everywhere that the price of this co-existence is high. The tragedy that struck during a night when the Sufi shrines of the Valley were all full of devotees.” NC’s Role: Pandits of the neighbouring villages, who had not moved out came to Wandhama and shouted slogans against Farooq government. They refused to cremate the dead bodies. They told the officials, “No, we will not allow you to perform their last rites here. We will take them to Jammu and show our countrymen what your government is doing to us”. They said Farooq government had failed to protect their lives and property. Police had to resort lathicharge to disperse them. The role of NC government came under strong criticism. Chief Minister Dr Abdullah’s utterances were described irresponsible. He had said after the incident, “there is no possibility of Kashmiri Hindus’ honourable return to their homes in Kashmir in view of the wicked gameplan of Pakistan to create communal clashes”. He also added “....We will give training in the use of arms and even provide arms to the Kashmiri migrants desirous of returning home”. Despite this tragedy, Governor KV Krishna Rao did not cancel “At Home” function in Raj Bhawan. State BJP leaders boycotted this function. The state government went ahead with the winter games at Gulmarg scheduled for January 28. Even the Pandit community artists were forced to take part in the cultural programme despite their reservations. Hypocrisy of the Prime Minister IK Gujral was exposed when he went to Gulmarg and became a part of the extravaganza that was staged there. He had told Kashmiri Hindus of adjoining villages in Wandhama only few hours back, “I am here only to share some grief of yours. It is a day of mourning for all of us”. The state government did not even discharge its responsibility of bringing the ashes of victims to Jammu for Kriya despite repeated pleas by the relatives of the victims. Ashes were brought by JK Awami League members. NC-Army Row: Massacre created a row between Army and state government. Mr Ali Sagar, State Minister for home had stated that the Wandhama massacre was a security lapse, as it had occurred under the very nose of the local army camp. The Army said foreign militants having links with certain local political leaders and responsible for the massacre of 23 Kashmiri Pandits at Wandhama had been identified and would be neutralised soon. A Defence Ministry spokesman said that 10 to 12 militants carried out the massacre with confidence because of links with certain political leaders of the area. Army said security forces cannot provide security to each and every individual in the Valley. Their task was to ensure a generally secure atmosphere for the government and public to function and live peacefully which had been achieved. If at all threat existed to an individual or groups of individual, it was the duty of police and paramilitary forces to provide adequate protection. Col. Ghosh, the Army spokesman claimed that in this case, security forces had for the past one year maintained a general peaceful environment better than other areas of the Valley. He added on the night of the massacre, two-third of the strength at the post was out dominating surrounding areas to ensure that activities related with Eid were not hindered. Due to the din and noise of prayers broadcast through loud speakers from mosques on Shab-e-Qader, the sound of firing could not be heard and hence they could not react. Col. Ghosh further claimed that when troops noticed the blaze from the village they moved immediately and reached the site. The civilian intelligence was also unaware of the incident till the morning. The security forces were the first to react, he added. However local villagers claimed that despite assurances, soldiers came several hours after the massacre. Wandhama could not have been avoided, because both the Central government and the State government ignored the intelligence reports which spoke of heavy infestation of foreign mercenaries in areas of Ganderbal, Safapor Mansbal besides Hajan in north Kashmir. Inspite of these reports no indepth study was made by the State government or the unified command on the nature of the security cover and offensive required to checkmate the militants. Prior to 1996, when NC government took over, the counter-insurgents led by Kuka Parrey had created terror in the hearts of terrorists’ sympa-thisers and kept this area free of foreign mercenaries and Hizb militants. Sustained campaign against counter-insurgents by many mainstream politicians and their disowning by the Central government only facilitated the ISI gameplan. The security picket in the village had also been removed at the instance of Muslim elders, who were allegedly instigated by terrorists. Massacre accused killed: On March 13, 3000 Rashtriya Rifles gunned down Hameed Gada at Sheikhpora, 3 kms from Ganderbal town. Gada alias Bombar Khan was affiliated with Hizbul Mujahideen and was at large for the last eight years. Gada was said to be the main mastermind behind the Wandhama carnage. Early in his carrier he killed two Kashmiri Pandits at Waskoora in Ganderbal as part of the Hizbul campaign to drive out even the remnants of Pandit community. He was also the killer of Pandit Janki Nath in Sumbal. The other accomplices of Gada at the time of his elimination were Mohd Abdullah of Tulmulla and Mohd Maqbool Sheikh of Ganderbal. Gada himself belonged to Tulmulla. Intriguingly the State and the Central government had at the time of massacre blamed the foreign mercenaries. Only Sudarshan Bhat’s son in Jammu had said that there was a local hand in the killings. Mr IK Gujral, the then Prime Minister had roared in Wandhama, “who were the killers and why did they act like this?” and had himself answered, “They had come from across the border. They were neither Kashmiri nor speaking local language”. Infact in every massacre involving the minority community, the active involvement of the locals of the area has been established by none other than state agencies. Mr Gujral granted Rs 20 lakh as relief to Vinod, the sole survivor in the massacre. This was done not out of genuine sympathy for the displaced Pandit community. It was to cover up his government’s callous disregard for the security of Pandits and connivance in the State government’s game of tokenist return. The epithet to the Wandhama massacre was written by Dr Ajay Chrungoo, Chairman, Panun Kashmir. Fixing responsibility for the Wandhama carnage, he had remarked, “We are being made pawns in the dubious game of establishing ‘symbolic secularism’ in J&K and building legitimacy for National Conference regime. Time has arrived that the entire task of internally displaced Pandits and their return should be undertaken by the Central government in view of the reports of New Delhi’s own agencies about the presence of undesirable elements in state bureaucracy and allegations against some members of National Conference. Moti Lal S/o Sri Kanth; Chotli W/o Moti Lal; Sanjay Kumar S/o Moti Lal; Seema Kumari D/o Moti Lal; Sarika D/o Moti Lal (Lady Police Constable); Vijay Kumari W/o Sanjay Kumar; Vinay Kumar (minor) S/o Sanjay Kumar; Neemu (minor) S/o Sanjay Kumar. Shadi Lal (wireless operator); Mrs Shadi Lal; Vikas (minor) S/o Shadi Lal; Akshay Kumar S/o Shadi Lal. Badri Nath S/o Shambu Nath; Ashaji W/o Badri Nath; Vinod Kumar alias Papu, son-in-law of Badri Nath; Jyoti, D/o Badri Nath; Meenakshi, D/o Badri Nath; Rakesh S/o Badri Nath Kashi Nath S/o Shridhar Bhat; Vinod Kumar S/o Kashi Nath Sudarshan S/o Tarachand; Dulari W/o Sudarshan Bhat, Triloki Nath, B/o Sudarshan. Kashmir Sentinel Slide presentations at: http://ikashmir.net/slides/index.html From skyabovetheclouds at gmail.com Sat Jun 6 09:43:55 2009 From: skyabovetheclouds at gmail.com (Alana Victoria Hunt) Date: Sat, 6 Jun 2009 09:43:55 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] FW: 8 days of hunger strike - activists in Petersburg protest the arrest of artist Artyom Loskutov Message-ID: ---------- Forwarded message ---------- From: *dmitry vilensky* Date: Fri, Jun 5, 2009 at 9:25 AM Subject: 8 days of hunger strike - activists in Petersburg protest the arrest of artist Artyom Loskutov To: info at chtodelat.org Dear friends and collegues, please spread these info as more as possible all my best dmitry Vilensky ++++++ On May 15, the young contemporary *artist Artem Loskutov was arrested* in his native Novisibirsk and charged with possession of a narcotic substance (marijuana) by the local branch of the Interior Ministry's notorious Center for Extremism Prevention (Center "E"). Loskutov and his supporters claim that the police planted the marijuana in his bag in order to incriminate him. As one of the organizers of the annual "Monstration" -- a flash mob street party in which young people march with absurdist, non-political slogans -- Loskutov had long been an objection of the Center's attentions. At a pre-trial custody hearing on May 20, it was revealed that the Center had been tapping the phones of Loskutov and his friends for the past six months. In April and on May Day itself, Loskutov had been summoned to the Center for "discussions," and his parents had been called and told that their son was a member of a dangerous sect. The circumstances of the case and the way that he was arrested thus point to a campaign of intimidation directed both at Loskutov and his fellow "monstrators" in Novosibirsk. The Loskutov case has sparked a massive outcry in Russia's activist and art communities. In the past three weeks, artists, activists, and ordinary concerned citizens all over Russia have carried out a series of pickets, protests, and actions in Loskutov's defense. The most inspiring of these actions has been *a "plein air" hunger strike* organized by several young artists in Petersburg, now in its second week. The artists encamped themselves in a park next to city hall and began producing paintings and drawings whose central theme is the increasingly brutal police repression of social activists and left-wing artists in Russia. The hunger strikers have issued three demands. First, they want a criminal investigation of the mass arrests by riot police of a group of young anarchists on May Day in Petersburg despite their having obtained official written permission to march with the other columns of demonstrators. Second, they call for the creation of a public commission to monitor the work of Center "E." Finally, they ask that all charges against Artem Loskutov be dropped and that he be released. Although the Loskutov case and the Petersburg hunger strike have become one of the hottest topics in the Russian blogosphere, there has been a near-total blackout in the mainstream Russian press, especially television. That is why we ask you to read the article linked below and learn how you can join our campaign of solidarity with Artem and his artist comrades in Petersburg. *We have called an international day of solidarity actions for June 9*, a day before Artem's next hearing in the Novosibirsk Regional Court. *An injury to one is an injury to all. Free Artem Loskutov!* http://chtodelat.wordpress.com/2009/06/04/free-artem-loskutov/ http://www.demotix.com/news/artists-hunger-strike-drags-international-economic-forum-looms Artists hunger strike drags on as international economic forum looms From rajen786uppinangady at gmail.com Sat Jun 6 13:46:50 2009 From: rajen786uppinangady at gmail.com (Rajendra Bhat Uppinangadi) Date: Sat, 6 Jun 2009 13:46:50 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] News Items posted on the net on Multipurpose National Identity Cards-121 In-Reply-To: <65be9bf40906050444v752cb3f2p1ec2b0885b852530@mail.gmail.com> References: <65be9bf40906050444v752cb3f2p1ec2b0885b852530@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <7271ec560906060116h51c93c37p13e3ce46357978ac@mail.gmail.com> Dear All, now that system of governance with new combination of UPA has started with good and enough false starts,Lalu Yadav being sidestepped, Sharad Yadav threatening to commit suicide on issues of women reservation bill, the President of india has broadly touched the policy matters to be persued by this system of governance. basically, the elected representatives are policy makers, first elaborate the policies the system of governance would like to persue, debate them with reference to ways and means of implementation, the pros and cons of the implementation. At this stage it is imperative that every citizen takes interest in the issue of the policy, the ways of implementaion and its reach and consequences in society as it is in force when implementated. The efforts of one of the members of the list, Mr. taha mehamood, is untiring, thankless job , that he is at, but importance is not lost on conscious minds of the readers. The reasons are manifold for this. Firstly, huge sums are being needed and used for implementation of MNIC or agrarian subsidies etc. more importantly, MNIC needs all the care and attention of the citizens of the nation, as once implemented, at every stage of implementation, the citizen has right to inquire, research the benefits and drawbacks of this action. But once it is implemented, recourse to correct the anamalies thru judicial system will not only be time consuming and also the enormous funds spent also prohibits even court to reconsider the aspects without a sense of responsiblity to individual rights. The worst example is the Narmada dam and Sarovar Project where thousands of crores have been spent and activists who are now suddenly active for the last few years about issues of miseries of submerged land owners' plight, re-settlement of the citizens etc. after it is too late to do any constructive work on these issues. In the case of MNIC it is relevant that all citizens gave a thought to this issue, made some efforts to understand and comprehend the issue more with interest as to how it can be abused and make efforts to put in place safeguards to avoid such avoidable pit falls. Laws are made, executed by the executive arm of democracy, citizen can in theroy get redressal by the judicial system of the demoracy, ofcourse at a very cost to his life and security.With rampant corruption at every level in every section of society, the laws are made more to be bent or broken than to serve the society, if all citizens are aware of the pitfalls, such actions which take care of individual rights can also be incorporated while the process of MNIC is made relevant. Special thanks for the efforts of taha for his efforts to create the awareness about the MNIC. Regards, Rajen. On Fri, Jun 5, 2009 at 5:14 PM, Taha Mehmood <2tahamehmood at googlemail.com>wrote: > > http://www.ptinews.com/pti%5Cptisite.nsf/0/212A0AFBB5E86F17652575CA001EEA94?OpenDocument > > > Govt serious on multi-purpose national ID: Qureshi > > > > H S Rao > London, Jun 3 (PTI) Advocating a multi-purpose national identity card > for Indians, Election Commissioner S Y Qureshi has said the Indian > government was keen to introduce the concept to better manage citizen > identity and national security issues. > > "We have been pressing the Government of India to have a National > Identity Card. There is serious thinking to have a Single Multipurpose > national Identity Cards," Qureshi said here at an interactive Session > at the House of Commons. > > The idea of a Multipurpose National Identity Card (MNIC) was mooted by > the Vajpayee-led NDA government in 2002, and later taken up by the UPA > government. > > Aimed at addressing national security, the problem of illegal > immigration and managing citizen identity, the project has been set in > motion by the government which approved the setting up of a National > Authority for Unique Identity under Planning Commission to oversee it. > > Delivering a lecture on the recent elections in India, Qureshi said > while in the last elections 82 per cent of the 714 million voters were > provided ID cards, in the next election 100 per cent voters would be > covered. > > Asked why the election was a "too long-drawn affair" with polling > spread over five phases lasting nearly a month, Qureshi said: "If we > had enough security forces, we can hold the elections in one day." PTI > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > subscribe in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> -- Rajen. From kmvenuannur at gmail.com Sat Jun 6 14:53:09 2009 From: kmvenuannur at gmail.com (Venugopalan K M) Date: Sat, 6 Jun 2009 14:53:09 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Fwd: Obama Speaks In Cairo- Three Comments- [Compiled and Posted by Harsh Kapoor in other forum- fwded] In-Reply-To: <1f9180970906060221r2ad31948q8f8f1062b3dbb03c@mail.gmail.com> References: <1f9180970906060208v471057ffued6b1e300ef764ec@mail.gmail.com> <1f9180970906060221r2ad31948q8f8f1062b3dbb03c@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <1f9180970906060223ubf006c6kfb72d9e15528350d@mail.gmail.com> Here are three interesting responses to the epoch-making Cairo Speech of Obama from representatives of secular thought from different parts of the world .I like to apologize with Harsh for taking the liberty to make these texts slightly abridged in view of  putting lesser demands on the readers' time here. Regards, Venu. ---------- Forwarded message ---------- From: Harsh Kapoor Date: Fri, 5 Jun 2009 17:23:58 +0200 Subject:  Obama the Preacher meets Oumma : Nice and Dangerous [Wonder when President Obama plans speaking to Hindusim, to Christianity and other such enterprises. Three comments on Obama's religion laced diplomacy. Given the nature of the widespread disease I am not surprised not to read any voices from the left so far to stop Obama and his advisors in their tracks and tell them not to peddle Huntington. Any one on the left for separation of Chruch and the State? Sadly, secularists are dying tribe and the left has its head burried in the sand. -Harsh] o o o #1. http://www.siawi.org/article792.html Reinforcing presumed religious identities: where are women and secularists of Muslim countries in Obama’s speech in Cairo? by Marieme Helie Lucas June 4, 2009 It is beyond doubt that many people around the world, of various political opinions and creeds, will feel relieved after the discourse the President of the USA delivered in Cairo today. It is apparently a new voice, a voice of peace, quite far from Bush’s clash of civilisations. But is it so? I presume that political commentators will point at the fact that Obama equates violence on the side of occupied Palestinians to violence on the side of Israeli colonizers, or that he has not abandonned the idea that the USA should tell the world how to behave and fight for their rights, or that the Israelo-Palestinian conflict is reduced to a religious conflict, or that he still justifies the war in Afghanistan, etc… All those are important issues that need to be challenged. However, what affects me most, as an Algerian secularist, is that Obama has not done away with the idea of homogeneous civilisations that was at the heart of the theory of the ’clash of civilisations’...  He persistently opposes ’Islam and the West’ (as two entities- civilisations), ’America and Islam’( a country vs a religion); he claims that ’America is not at war with Islam’. In short ’the West’ is composed of countries, while ’Islam’ is not. Old Jomo Kenyatta used to say of British colonizers : ’when they came, we had the land, they had the Bible; now we have the Bible, they have the land’. Obama’s discourse confirms it: religion is still good enough for us to have, or to be defined by. His concluding compilation of monotheist religious wisdom sounds as if it were the only language that we, barbarians, can understand. These shortcomings have adverse effects on us, citizens of countries where Islam is the predominant and often the state religion. First of all, Obama’s discourse is addressed to ’Islam’, as if an idea, a concept, a belief, could hear him. As if those were not necessarily mediated by the people who hold these views, ideas, concepts or beliefs. As Soheib Bencheikh, former Great Mufti of Marseilles, now Director of the Institute of High Islamic Studies in Marseilles, used to say: ’I have never seen a Qur’an walking in the street’… Can we imagine for one minute that Obama would address himself to ’ Christianity’ or to ’Buddhism’? No, he would talk to Christians or Buddhists… to real people, keeping in mind all their differences. Obama is essentializing Islam, ignoring the large differences that exist among Muslim believers themselves, in terms of religious schools of thought and interpretations, cultural differences and political opinions. These differences indeed make it totally irrelevant to speak about ’Islam’ in such a totalizing way. Obama would not dare essentialize, for instance, Christianity in such a way, ignoring the huge gap between Opus Dei and liberation theology… Unfortunately, this essentializing Islam feeds into the plans of Muslim fundamentalists whose permanent claim is that there is one single Islam - their version of it -, one homogeneous Muslim world, and subsequently one single Islamic law that needs to be respected by all in the name of religious rights.....these supposedly Muslim laws reflect as well historical and political factors including colonial sources [*] - obviously not divine. This is the first adverse consequence of Obama’s essentializing Islam and homogeneizing Muslims: as much as he may criticize fundamentalists - which he calls ’a minority of extremists’-, he is using their language and their concepts. This is unlikely to help the cause of anti fundamentalists forces in Muslim countries....  He assumes that anyone has to have a religion, overlooking the fact that in many instances, people are forced into religious identities. In more and more ’Muslim’ countries, citizens are forced into religious practice [**], and pay dissent with their freedom and sometimes with their lives....Many citizens of ’Muslim’ countries want to leave religion in its place and delink it from politics.. they oppose unchangeable, a-historical, supposedly divine laws, as a process that is alien to democracy... Obama is claiming to defend democracy, democratic processes, and human rights? How can this fit with addressing whole nations through their supposed, hence imposed, religious identities?... They are made ’Muslims’ . Not just by our oppressive undemocratic governments - by Obama too… And when he talks of his own fellow citizens, these ’7 million American Muslims’, did he ask them what their faith was or is he assuming faith on geographical origin? In this religious straight jacket, women’s rights are limited to their right to education - and Obama distances himself from arrogant westerners by making it clear that women’s covering is not seen by him as an obstacle to their emancipation. Especially, if it is ’their choice’… Meanwhile, Iran is next door, with its morality police that jails women whose hair slips out of the said-covering, in the name of religious laws… And what about Afghanistan or Algeria where women were abducted, tortured, raped, mutilated, burnt alive, killed for not covering [***]? At no point does he raise the issue of who defines culture, who defines religion, who speaks for ’the Muslims’ - and why could not it be defined by individual women themselves - without clerics, without morality police, without self appointed, old, conservative, male, religious leaders - if their fundamental human rights were to be respected. Obviously, Obama trades women’s human rights for political and economic alliances with ’Islam’… ’Islam’ definitely owns oil, among other things. No, this discourse is not such a change for an American President: Obama remains within the boundaries of clashing civilisations- religions. How can this save us from the global rise of religious fundamentalism, which this discourse was supposed to counter? Footnotes [*] for instance, from 1962 to 1976, the source for Algerian laws on reproductive rights was the 1920 French law; or, in 1947, the source for Pakistani law on inheritance was the Victorian law that the UK itself had already done way with. [**] One Malaysian state made daily prayers compulsory; Algerian courts condemned to prison non fasting citizens in 2008; Iranian courts still jail women for ’unislamic behavior’. [***] *** Shadow Report on Algeria. wluml.org Creative Commons License Reinforcing presumed religious identities: where are women and secularists of Muslim countries in Obama’s speech in Cairo? by Marieme Helie Lucas is licensed under a Creative Commons Attribution-Noncommercial-No Derivative Works 3.0 United States License. You may republish it free of charge with attribution for non-commercial purposes following these guidelines. o o o #2. The Guardian, 5 June 2009 We wanted a world leader. We saw only a US president Obama’s long-awaited speech demonstrated little to suggest America will pursue any course beyond its own interests by Ahdaf Soueif This is hard. It’s hard because we so need to believe that Obama is about change, that he’s wise, that he’s good, that he has the interests of the world – rather than just the interests of the United States – at heart. ....In the great Festival Hall under the dome of Cairo University we are a good-humoured crowd....Obama did what many of us hoped he would not do: he accorded faith a central position in the relationship between our different parts of the world: rather than human beings with different histories and different political interests and ambitions – and despite a quick acknowledgment of colonialism – we were essentially people of different faiths who would now make nice with each other. And such is our beleaguered state of mind here in this part of the world that every time he quoted the Qur’an, he was applauded. But then again, it seemed that it was the same 200 or so people who were putting their hands together – to less effect each time. "Extremism" was top of the agenda, even though al-Qaida, once so modern and cutting edge, is now tired and irrelevant. But it was prodded out of its stall again as justification for American operations in Afghanistan. We were reminded of the 3,000 people killed in New York – people who had done no harm to anyone. And every person listening east of Rome and many west of it would have been thinking "and what about the million Iraqis, what about the Afghanis, what about …" And nothing about non-Muslim extremism, about the 40 million American Christian Zionists anticipating the Rapture with glee, or the Israeli settlers who in Hebron take your photo and upload it to God to fast-lane you to hell. Obama’s speech was a lawyerly speech, a clever speech. It certainly departed from the Bush discourse, but how far away from the policies of the last eight years are the sources it springs from? We still can only wait and see. The biggest applause he got was when he said that all US troops would be out of Iraq by 2012, and when he repeated his position on the Israeli settlements. He’s been brave on the settlements, and of course we’re all grateful for every step in the direction of halting the dispossession of the Palestinians. But it also needs to be remembered that stopping the settlements has been part of the official position of every American administration; what’s required is the implementation of that position by cutting off the funding for the settlements and closing the tax loophole that allows private American organisations to fund them. Around the pedestal carrying the Eternal Flame of Knowledge outside the university,the American activist group Code Pink carried banners that said "Obama: Stop funding Israeli war crimes". They came out of Gaza on Wednesday carrying a letter from Hamas to the American president, and they were at pains to point out that Hamas chose an American feminist group to carry their letter. I don’t know if they managed to deliver it. There is a difference between believing that ultimately the interests of the inhabitants of the planet are genuinely interconnected and believing that the interests of the world can be made to seem compatible with America’s. Obama has said that America should have not only the power but the moral standing to lead the world. Today we waited for him to demonstrate that moral standing and assume the leadership of the world. He did not; he remained the President of the United States. o o o #3. The Ottawa Citizen, June 4, 2009 Obama misses his ‘tear down this wall’ moment by Tarek Fatah "..But perhaps there was a method in Obama’s madness. Perhaps he would walk into the heart of dictatorship and racism to make his “tear down this wall” call as Ronald Reagan did in Berlin in 1987. I waited, but that moment never came. At one stage when Obama made reference to Bang-ladesh and Indonesia and Turkey, my heart fluttered in anticipation. Yes, I thought. He is now going to make the argument directly to the men who rule the Arab world with an iron fist. Talking about women’s rights, Obama said: “In Turkey, Pakistan, Bangladesh and Indonesia, we have seen Muslim-majority countries elect a woman to lead.” Bravo, I thought. I hoped his next sentence would say: Now is the time for Arab countries to take a lead from their non-Arab co-religionists and learn how to bring women to the forefront of politics and leadership. But he didn’t. Instead his next line was almost an apology for why the Arab world is so hostile to women’s equality. Obama said, “Meanwhile, the struggle for women’s equality continues in many aspects of American life, and in countries around the world." To me he sounded as if he was saying to the kings and generals: Do not despair, we Americans too are not without blame as far as women’s rights are concerned. Of course America has miles to go before it rests, but to even hint of a parallel between the challenges facing women in America and the appalling condition of women in the Arab world is downright dangerous and only feeds the mullahs who will say, “Look, even America discriminates against women — Obama said it.”... The Ottawa Citizen, June 4, 2009 Obama misses his ‘tear down this wall’ moment by Tarek Fatah Whether we like Barack Obama or not, few would disagree the United States is today being led by a man like no other in its history. And being black is not the reason why. It is the uncharted waters the American president has chosen to traverse that make his journey so captivating, much more than his mastery of oratory. His speech in Cairo yesterday was a milestone no other American president could have or would have cared or dared to reach. Abu Natasha (father of Natasha), as Obama would be known to Arabs, has made a seemingly easy pitch at the Muslim world that could very well turn out to be a nasty curve ball that few of the dictators in the region would be able to read. Only time will tell if Obama’s pitch is hit out of the park by the guile of the wicked batsmen who have occupied their positions for decades, or whether he scores a strikeout. As a secular Muslim admirer of Obama who has one degree of separation from him (we have a common friend) I got up early to listen to the much-anticipated speech from Cairo. I was uneasy about his choice of location, even as I wanted to give the man the benefit of doubt. After all, Obama was supposed to address the Muslim world, not the Arab world. Some may argue that questioning his choice for the venue is nitpicking, but where he said what he said is hugely significant as well. Some observers argued that, in rejecting venues like Jakarta, Karachi, Dar es Salaam, Dakar, Dhaka or Kuala Lumpur, President Obama had inadvertently bought into the doctrine that divides the Muslim world between the so-called authentic Muslims of the Arab countries and the B-grade Muslims that live elsewhere. For centuries, non-Arab African Muslims like the Kenyan Barack Obama Sr., have been deemed of lesser worth and referred to in the Arab world as “Ya Abdi” (O my slave) while other non-Arab Muslims have been slapped with the derogatory title of Mawalis, the manifestation of which is seen today in Darfur and Dubai. But perhaps there was a method in Obama’s madness. Perhaps he would walk into the heart of dictatorship and racism to make his “tear down this wall” call as Ronald Reagan did in Berlin in 1987. I waited, but that moment never came. At one stage when Obama made reference to Bang-ladesh and Indonesia and Turkey, my heart fluttered in anticipation. Yes, I thought. He is now going to make the argument directly to the men who rule the Arab world with an iron fist. Talking about women’s rights, Obama said: “In Turkey, Pakistan, Bangladesh and Indonesia, we have seen Muslim-majority countries elect a woman to lead.” Bravo, I thought. I hoped his next sentence would say: Now is the time for Arab countries to take a lead from their non-Arab co-religionists and learn how to bring women to the forefront of politics and leadership. But he didn’t. Instead his next line was almost an apology for why the Arab world is so hostile to women’s equality. Obama said, “Meanwhile, the struggle for women’s equality continues in many aspects of American life, and in countries around the world.” To me he sounded as if he was saying to the kings and generals: Do not despair, we Americans too are not without blame as far as women’s rights are concerned. Of course America has miles to go before it rests, but to even hint of a parallel between the challenges facing women in America and the appalling condition of women in the Arab world is downright dangerous and only feeds the mullahs who will say, “Look, even America discriminates against women — Obama said it.” To give Obama credit, he did lay down the line when it comes to the violent jihadis of al-Qaeda. My hat’s off to him for making the journey and extending a hand, but in doing so he has risked validating the very soft jihadis of the Muslim Brotherhood who have  forced the hijab on the heads of Muslim women, and made them think that not wearing one is like walking naked in public. I salute him for standing up for Muslim women who wish to wear the hijab, but where was his condemnation of the punishment of Muslim women in Saudi Arabia and Iran for daring to show their curls? Obama has a few years to go before his legacy is written. In dealing with Muslims I hope he does not swallow the Islamist definitions of Islam that seem to be slowly creeping into his administration’s narrative and outreach. I would hope that when he engages with Muslims, he is not too enamoured by those who define their faith by the number of bangs that are hidden under a hijab, but also by the Muslims whom he befriended as a young man; such as his buddy, the Pakistan-American Mohammed Hasan Chandoo. Dear Abu Natasha, As another Abu Natasha from just north of the border, please do not impose on us Muslims what the Muslim Brotherhood wishes to impose, but remember what you desire for your Christian daughter Natasha, I demand for my Muslim daughter Natasha. Khuda Hafiz. -- http://venukm.blogspot.com/ -- http://venukm.blogspot.com/ -- http://venukm.blogspot.com/ From javedmasoo at gmail.com Sat Jun 6 15:15:26 2009 From: javedmasoo at gmail.com (M Javed) Date: Sat, 6 Jun 2009 15:15:26 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Shivaji a la Statue of Liberty Message-ID: Shivaji’s Statue in Arabian Sea Ram Puniyani Maharashtra Government has taken a decision sometime back that it will erect the statue of Shivaji, in the Arabian Sea, a la Statue of Liberty in US. Shivaji is one of the greatest icons from medieval times in Maharashtra. This statue is estimated to cost around 300 crores (ten thousand, thousands) as per present projections. This decision of the Maharashtra Government was hardly debated. Even those who feel that there is a bigger need for funds for other development issues, kept quite, as by now Shivaji has become a matter of big identity politics in Maharashtra. Every party with Maharashtra connection swears in his name. While one is scathingly critical, an rightly so, of the statue raising spree by Mayawati, statues of dalit icons and of her own, about Shivaji there is hardly a ripple of protest, the debate about whether public money of such a big magnitude should be spent on the statue, has remained on the margins. However what surfaced as the debate took the form of caste issue. There was a talk that Babasaheb Purandare, a Brahmin, who has written some popular material on Shivaji will be made as the Chairman of the committee overseeing the work of statue. In response Maratha Mahasangh chief, Purushottam Khedekar and others objected to a Brahmin heading the committee for a statue for Maratha warrior. They also threatened to use violence in case their fatwa is not followed. Not to be left behind, Raj Thackeray, belonging to another political tendency resorting to violent methods, gave a counter threat that Purandare must be retained on the committee. It goes without saying that people like Khedekar and Raj Thackeray, sail in the same boat of intolerant politics, which needs to be condemned. Also the caste angle of controversy should be opposed thoroughly. Still one will urge that Babasaheb Purandare should not be on the committee. The reasons for that lie not in the fact that Purandare is a Brahmin, but because Purandare’s presentation of Shivaji is through and through communal. It picks up from the tradition of British Historiography, communal historiography, which in order to implement the policy of divide and rule, presented the history through the prism of religion. In Maharashtra there are as many images of Shivaji's as are the number of political streams. Purandare’s Shivaji, as manifested through his play Jaanta Raja (All knowing King) is primarily an anti Muslim King. Shivaji is also presented as the great worshipper of Brahmins and cows. Purandare’s total slant is that Shivaji wanted to build Hindu nation etc. which is not only far from truth but also has a very divisive way of presenting our past. As a matter of fact, Shivaji is popular amongst people, not because he was anti Muslim or worshipper of Cows and Brahmins, but because he went on to reduce the taxation on the poor peasants. Shivaji adopted humane policy in aspects of his administration, which did not base itself on the religion. In the recruitment of his soldiers and officers for his army and navy, religion was no criterion and more than one third of his army consisted of Muslims. The supreme command of his navy was with Siddi Sambal, and Muslim Siddis were in navy in large numbers. Interestingly his major battles were fought with the Rajput army lead by Mirza Raja Jaisingh on behalf of King Aurangzeb. When he was detained at Agra forte, of the two men on whom he relied for his eventual escape, one was a Muslim called Madari Mehtar. His confidential secretary was Maulana Haider Ali and the chief of his cannon division was Ibrahim Gardi. His respect for other religions was very clear and he respected the holy seers like 'Hazarat Baba Yaqut bahut Thorwale', whom he gave the life pension and also Father Ambrose, whose church was under attack in Gujarat. At his capital Raigad he erected a special mosque for Muslim devotees in front of his palace in the same way that he built the Jagadishwar temple for his own daily worship. During his military campaigns Shivaji had issued strict instructions to his men and officers that Muslim women and children should not be subjected to maltreatment. Mosques and Dargah's were given due protection. He also ordered that whenever a copy of Koran came into the hands of his men, they should show proper respect to the book and hand it over to a Muslim. The story of his bowing to the daughter-in-law of Bassein's Nawab is well known to all. When she was brought as a part of the loot and offered to him, he respectfully begged her pardon and asked his soldiers to reach her back from the place from where she was forcibly brought in. Shivaji was in no way actuated by any hatred towards Muslims as a sect or towards their religion. All this goes on to show the values of communal harmony which Shivaji pursued, and that his primary goal was to establish his own kingdom with maximum possible geographical area. To project him as anti-Muslim and anti-Islam is travesty of truth. Today rank casteist-communal forces are also in the bandwagon to ‘use’ Shivaji issue for their political goals. One recalls that Human rights activist Teesta Setalvad had prepared a hand book of History for the school teachers some time back. In this she pointed out that since Shivaji was a Shudra, the Brahmins refused to coronate him, so a Brahmin Gaga Bhat had to be brought from Kashi, who did the coronation ritual. Since Shivaji was a Shudra this coronation was done with the toe of his left foot by Gaga Bhat. The local Shiv Sena went on to oppose this handbook on the ground that the writer is calling him a Shudra. It is true that Shivaji was a Shudra and this incident is true. Similarly Bhandarkar Institute was attacked by the same people, Khedekar and company, on the pretext that this institute had helped James Lane write a book on Shivaji. It is well known that this book mentioned a rumor about the real parentage of Shivaji. While communal historiography has been the major tool in the arsenal of communal forces, now we are witnessing, ‘caste historiography’ to settle the scores of contemporary caste politics. It is sad. What is needed is to overcome these caste and communal angles to build the nation, while giving justice to the deprived sections, while planning affirmative actions for the marginalized sections. One also hopes the Government thinks of using the public money in a better way than raising statue. The making of statue should also take into consideration the ecological factors, and if these factors permit the statue, it should come up, with a proviso that the money for the statue will be raised from people. The government money should not be spent on this. -- Issues in Secular Politics June 2009 II For circulation/publication ram.puniyani at gmail.com www.pluralindia.com From 2tahamehmood at googlemail.com Sat Jun 6 16:29:49 2009 From: 2tahamehmood at googlemail.com (Taha Mehmood) Date: Sat, 6 Jun 2009 11:59:49 +0100 Subject: [Reader-list] News Items posted on the net on Multipurpose National Identity Cards-123 Message-ID: <65be9bf40906060359k2c802757uf3a5c5d2005e52f3@mail.gmail.com> http://www.assamtribune.com/scripts/details.asp?id=jun0609/at01 Take up influx issue with Bangla: Advani Spl Correspondent NEW DELHI, June 5 – Expressing his disappointment at the exclusion of the problem of illegal migration from Bangladesh in the Presidents’ Address, Opposition Leader, LK Advani today said, New Delhi must take it up with Dhaka. “I am disappointed to see that there is no mention in the Presidents’ Address of the problem of illegal Bangladeshi immigrants in Assam and elsewhere in the country. India must take up this issue with Bangladesh,” he said, participating in the discussion on the Presidents’ Address in the Lok Sabha. First, the Government must do what it has been asked by the Supreme Court to do, he said. The Opposition Leader also touched on the issue of Multi-purpose National Identity Card, pointing out that the Presidents address, talks about a Unique Identity Card for each citizen in three years. “I would urge that it should not only be unique, but also multi-purpose. I do not have to belabour this point. Today a citizen has a voter ID card, ration card, driving license, PAN card. Why can’t we have a single Multi-purpose National Identity Card?” he asked, supporting the Presidents’ Address. Regarding the foreign policy issues, Advani in a significant departure from the past, refrained from delivering a hard-hitting speech, and referred to neighbouring China. He said India should work for normalisation of relations with China. There should be no let-up in these efforts. However, it is of utmost importance to ensure that India does not convey, even inadvertently, the impression of bending over backwards to please China, he said. Some recent reports about further Chinese assistance to Pakistan’s nuclear programme are worrisome. China also continues to rake up the Arunachal Pradesh issue, he mentioned. The people of India expect the government to be firm in these matters, the Opposition Leader said. From vedavati_jogi at yahoo.com Sat Jun 6 16:47:54 2009 From: vedavati_jogi at yahoo.com (Vedavati Jogi) Date: Sat, 6 Jun 2009 16:47:54 +0530 (IST) Subject: [Reader-list] Shivaji a la Statue of Liberty Message-ID: <829312.34239.qm@web94701.mail.in2.yahoo.com> The biography of Shivaji Maharaj written by Babasaheb Purandare  has an answer for any problem faced by a Hindu or Indian politicians; however for this purpose the biography should be read with shrewdness and insight.   If read by Hindus with the immoderate vision of Gandhi with respect to non-violence, truth, pleasing Muslims, or the coloured spectacles of Nehru who with the concept of `all religions are equal’ meted out inferior treatment to Hindus, then Hindus will not even become aware of when they were circumscribed!   Politicians have ensured that youths and adults do not get any inspiration from the biography of Shivaji Maharaj simply because it is an everflowing spring of inspiration for Hindus! Hence Shivaji Maharaj has been totally eliminated from the history text books at the Secondary school level. History on Shivaji Maharaj is taught and finished in the III or IV standards as if they are fairy tales for children to read and forget.   Shivaji was definitely not against Muslims but, In the fight for independence and establishing his own kingdom, in every aspect Shivaji Maharaj did everything possible to promote Hinduism. His assembly of eight ministers was formed based on Hindu ideals. One comes across this concept of eight ministers in the Ramayan and the Mahabharat. King Dashrath too had eight ministers. In the Shantiparva of the Mahabharat also it has been suggested that exchange of thoughts of eight ministers is necessary. During the coronation ceremony Maharaj changed the Persian names of the ministers to Sanskrut. Lokmanya Tilak was the first to start the celebration of the birth anniversary of Shivaji Maharaj. He was followed by  Veer Savarkar in 1908 in London. Both these leaders were fully aware of the importance of this biography, but Gandhi and Nehru kept strict vigilance on this text ever since independence of India. That is why how a handful of Muslims invaded and destroyed Hindu kingdoms and gained control over the Hindu empire is not known to most Hindus after 1920. In fact it is because of this misguidance that they accepted the division of India without offering any resistance to it. Non- acceptance of this biography which would have inspired Indians has resulted in return of Muslim powers in the name of Pakistan and Bangladesh, to overpower Hindus- Consequences of not receiving inspiration from the biography of Shivaji Maharaj -- Today we compromise by releasing hard core terrorists in return for release of the kidnapped daughter of an Indian Muslim Minister, Mufti Mohammed. India’s External Affairs Minister flies to the Kandahar desert in a special plane only to release criminals who have butchered Hindus ! In Kashmir Bitta Karate who beheaded 16 Hindus is released on parole ! In the 13 days after killing Afzal Khan Shivaji Maharaj conquered 16 forts And in contrast within a year of independence of India our politicians lost 1/3rd of our motherland in Kashmir to enemies ! Fearing Shivaji’s valour, till he was alive, Aurangzeb did not dare to even talk about conquering South India. Yet today the cunning, crafty Musharraf arrives in India to disrupt an Agra conference or dares to hang the Indian tricolour upside down on his personal aircraft. Hindus have not become minority community in Maharashtra only because of Shivaji Raja. Ram Punyani – a Sindhi had to take refuge in India after partition because his Sindh province did not produce any Shivaji. Babasaheb Purandare has presented this History in beautiful manner.  Punyani should not teach Babasaheb how to write  History.                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        --- On Sat, 6/6/09, M Javed wrote: From: M Javed Subject: [Reader-list] Shivaji a la Statue of Liberty To: "sarai list" <> Date: Saturday, 6 June, 2009, 5:45 PM Shivaji’s Statue in Arabian Sea Ram Puniyani Maharashtra Government has taken a decision sometime back that it will erect the statue of Shivaji, in the Arabian Sea, a la Statue of Liberty in US. Shivaji is one of the greatest icons from medieval times in Maharashtra. This statue is estimated to cost around 300 crores (ten thousand, thousands) as per present projections. This decision of the Maharashtra Government was hardly debated. Even those who feel that there is a bigger need for funds for other development issues, kept quite, as by now Shivaji has become a matter of big identity politics in Maharashtra. Every party with Maharashtra connection swears in his name. While one is scathingly critical, an rightly so, of the statue raising spree by Mayawati, statues of dalit icons and of her own, about Shivaji there is hardly a ripple of protest, the debate about whether public money of such a big magnitude should be spent on the statue, has remained on the margins. However what surfaced as the debate took the form of caste issue. There was a talk that Babasaheb Purandare, a Brahmin, who has written some popular material on Shivaji will be made as the Chairman of the committee overseeing the work of statue. In response Maratha Mahasangh chief, Purushottam Khedekar and others objected to a Brahmin heading the committee for a statue for Maratha warrior. They also threatened to use violence in case their fatwa is not followed. Not to be left behind, Raj Thackeray, belonging to another political tendency resorting to violent methods, gave a counter threat that Purandare must be retained on the committee. It goes without saying that people like Khedekar and Raj Thackeray, sail in the same boat of intolerant politics, which needs to be condemned. Also the caste angle of controversy should be opposed thoroughly. Still one will urge that Babasaheb Purandare should not be on the committee. The reasons for that lie not in the fact that Purandare is a Brahmin, but because Purandare’s presentation of Shivaji is through and through communal. It picks up from the tradition of British Historiography, communal historiography, which in order to implement the policy of divide and rule, presented the history through the prism of religion. In Maharashtra there are as many images of Shivaji's as are the number of political streams. Purandare’s Shivaji, as manifested through his play Jaanta Raja (All knowing King) is primarily an anti Muslim King. Shivaji is also presented as the great worshipper of Brahmins and cows. Purandare’s total slant is that Shivaji wanted to build Hindu nation etc. which is not only far from truth but also has a very divisive way of presenting our past. As a matter of fact, Shivaji is popular amongst people, not because he was anti Muslim or worshipper of Cows and Brahmins, but because he went on to reduce the taxation on the poor peasants. Shivaji adopted humane policy in aspects of his administration, which did not base itself on the religion. In the recruitment of his soldiers and officers for his army and navy, religion was no criterion and more than one third of his army consisted of Muslims. The supreme command of his navy was with Siddi Sambal, and Muslim Siddis were in navy in large numbers. Interestingly his major battles were fought with the Rajput army lead by Mirza Raja Jaisingh on behalf of King Aurangzeb. When he was detained at Agra forte, of the two men on whom he relied for his eventual escape, one was a Muslim called Madari Mehtar. His confidential secretary was Maulana Haider Ali and the chief of his cannon division was Ibrahim Gardi. His respect for other religions was very clear and he respected the holy seers like 'Hazarat Baba Yaqut bahut Thorwale', whom he gave the life pension and also Father Ambrose, whose church was under attack in Gujarat. At his capital Raigad he erected a special mosque for Muslim devotees in front of his palace in the same way that he built the Jagadishwar temple for his own daily worship. During his military campaigns Shivaji had issued strict instructions to his men and officers that Muslim women and children should not be subjected to maltreatment. Mosques and Dargah's were given due protection. He also ordered that whenever a copy of Koran came into the hands of his men, they should show proper respect to the book and hand it over to a Muslim. The story of his bowing to the daughter-in-law of Bassein's Nawab is well known to all. When she was brought as a part of the loot and offered to him, he respectfully begged her pardon and asked his soldiers to reach her back from the place from where she was forcibly brought in. Shivaji was in no way actuated by any hatred towards Muslims as a sect or towards their religion. All this goes on to show the values of communal harmony which Shivaji pursued, and that his primary goal was to establish his own kingdom with maximum possible geographical area. To project him as anti-Muslim and anti-Islam is travesty of truth. Today rank casteist-communal forces are also in the bandwagon to ‘use’ Shivaji issue for their political goals. One recalls that Human rights activist Teesta Setalvad had prepared a hand book of History for the school teachers some time back. In this she pointed out that since Shivaji was a Shudra, the Brahmins refused to coronate him, so a Brahmin Gaga Bhat had to be brought from Kashi, who did the coronation ritual. Since Shivaji was a Shudra this coronation was done with the toe of his left foot by Gaga Bhat. The local Shiv Sena went on to oppose this handbook on the ground that the writer is calling him a Shudra. It is true that Shivaji was a Shudra and this incident is true. Similarly Bhandarkar Institute was attacked by the same people, Khedekar and company, on the pretext that this institute had helped James Lane write a book on Shivaji. It is well known that this book mentioned a rumor about the real parentage of Shivaji. While communal historiography has been the major tool in the arsenal of communal forces, now we are witnessing, ‘caste historiography’ to settle the scores of contemporary caste politics. It is sad. What is needed is to overcome these caste and communal angles to build the nation, while giving justice to the deprived sections, while planning affirmative actions for the marginalized sections. One also hopes the Government thinks of using the public money in a better way than raising statue. The making of statue should also take into consideration the ecological factors, and if these factors permit the statue, it should come up, with a proviso that the money for the statue will be raised from people. The government money should not be spent on this. -- Issues in Secular Politics June 2009 II For circulation/publication www.pluralindia.com _________________________________________ reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. Critiques & Collaborations To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with subscribe in the subject header. To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> Explore and discover exciting holidays and getaways with Yahoo! India Travel http://in.travel.yahoo.com/ From vedavati_jogi at yahoo.com Sat Jun 6 16:49:45 2009 From: vedavati_jogi at yahoo.com (Vedavati Jogi) Date: Sat, 6 Jun 2009 16:49:45 +0530 (IST) Subject: [Reader-list] Shivaji a la Statue of Liberty Message-ID: <117029.5703.qm@web94716.mail.in2.yahoo.com> The biography of Shivaji Maharaj written by Babasaheb Purandare  has an answer for any problem faced by a Hindu or Indian politicians; however for this purpose the biography should be read with shrewdness and insight.   If read by Hindus with the immoderate vision of Gandhi with respect to non-violence, truth, pleasing Muslims, or the coloured spectacles of Nehru who with the concept of `all religions are equal’ meted out inferior treatment to Hindus, then Hindus will not even become aware of when they were circumscribed!   Politicians have ensured that youths and adults do not get any inspiration from the biography of Shivaji Maharaj simply because it is an everflowing spring of inspiration for Hindus! Hence Shivaji Maharaj has been totally eliminated from the history text books at the Secondary school level. History on Shivaji Maharaj is taught and finished in the III or IV standards as if they are fairy tales for children to read and forget.   Shivaji was definitely not against Muslims but, In the fight for independence and establishing his own kingdom, in every aspect Shivaji Maharaj did everything possible to promote Hinduism. His assembly of eight ministers was formed based on Hindu ideals. One comes across this concept of eight ministers in the Ramayan and the Mahabharat. King Dashrath too had eight ministers. In the Shantiparva of the Mahabharat also it has been suggested that exchange of thoughts of eight ministers is necessary. During the coronation ceremony Maharaj changed the Persian names of the ministers to Sanskrut. Lokmanya Tilak was the first to start the celebration of the birth anniversary of Shivaji Maharaj. He was followed by  Veer Savarkar in 1908 in London. Both these leaders were fully aware of the importance of this biography, but Gandhi and Nehru kept strict vigilance on this text ever since independence of India. That is why how a handful of Muslims invaded and destroyed Hindu kingdoms and gained control over the Hindu empire is not known to most Hindus after 1920. In fact it is because of this misguidance that they accepted the division of India without offering any resistance to it. Non- acceptance of this biography which would have inspired Indians has resulted in return of Muslim powers in the name of Pakistan and Bangladesh, to overpower Hindus- Consequences of not receiving inspiration from the biography of Shivaji Maharaj -- Today we compromise by releasing hard core terrorists in return for release of the kidnapped daughter of an Indian Muslim Minister, Mufti Mohammed. India’s External Affairs Minister flies to the Kandahar desert in a special plane only to release criminals who have butchered Hindus ! In Kashmir Bitta Karate who beheaded 16 Hindus is released on parole ! In the 13 days after killing Afzal Khan Shivaji Maharaj conquered 16 forts And in contrast within a year of independence of India our politicians lost 1/3rd of our motherland in Kashmir to enemies ! Fearing Shivaji’s valour, till he was alive, Aurangzeb did not dare to even talk about conquering South India. Yet today the cunning, crafty Musharraf arrives in India to disrupt an Agra conference or dares to hang the Indian tricolour upside down on his personal aircraft. Hindus have not become minority community in Maharashtra only because of Shivaji Raja. Ram Punyani – a Sindhi had to take refuge in India after partition because his Sindh province did not produce any Shivaji. Babasaheb Purandare has presented this History in beautiful manner.  Punyani should not teach Babasaheb how to write  History.                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        --- On Sat, 6/6/09, M Javed wrote: From: M Javed Subject: [Reader-list] Shivaji a la Statue of Liberty To: "sarai list" <> Date: Saturday, 6 June, 2009, 5:45 PM Shivaji’s Statue in Arabian Sea Ram Puniyani Maharashtra Government has taken a decision sometime back that it will erect the statue of Shivaji, in the Arabian Sea, a la Statue of Liberty in US. Shivaji is one of the greatest icons from medieval times in Maharashtra. This statue is estimated to cost around 300 crores (ten thousand, thousands) as per present projections. This decision of the Maharashtra Government was hardly debated. Even those who feel that there is a bigger need for funds for other development issues, kept quite, as by now Shivaji has become a matter of big identity politics in Maharashtra. Every party with Maharashtra connection swears in his name. While one is scathingly critical, an rightly so, of the statue raising spree by Mayawati, statues of dalit icons and of her own, about Shivaji there is hardly a ripple of protest, the debate about whether public money of such a big magnitude should be spent on the statue, has remained on the margins. However what surfaced as the debate took the form of caste issue. There was a talk that Babasaheb Purandare, a Brahmin, who has written some popular material on Shivaji will be made as the Chairman of the committee overseeing the work of statue. In response Maratha Mahasangh chief, Purushottam Khedekar and others objected to a Brahmin heading the committee for a statue for Maratha warrior. They also threatened to use violence in case their fatwa is not followed. Not to be left behind, Raj Thackeray, belonging to another political tendency resorting to violent methods, gave a counter threat that Purandare must be retained on the committee. It goes without saying that people like Khedekar and Raj Thackeray, sail in the same boat of intolerant politics, which needs to be condemned. Also the caste angle of controversy should be opposed thoroughly. Still one will urge that Babasaheb Purandare should not be on the committee. The reasons for that lie not in the fact that Purandare is a Brahmin, but because Purandare’s presentation of Shivaji is through and through communal. It picks up from the tradition of British Historiography, communal historiography, which in order to implement the policy of divide and rule, presented the history through the prism of religion. In Maharashtra there are as many images of Shivaji's as are the number of political streams. Purandare’s Shivaji, as manifested through his play Jaanta Raja (All knowing King) is primarily an anti Muslim King. Shivaji is also presented as the great worshipper of Brahmins and cows. Purandare’s total slant is that Shivaji wanted to build Hindu nation etc. which is not only far from truth but also has a very divisive way of presenting our past. As a matter of fact, Shivaji is popular amongst people, not because he was anti Muslim or worshipper of Cows and Brahmins, but because he went on to reduce the taxation on the poor peasants. Shivaji adopted humane policy in aspects of his administration, which did not base itself on the religion. In the recruitment of his soldiers and officers for his army and navy, religion was no criterion and more than one third of his army consisted of Muslims. The supreme command of his navy was with Siddi Sambal, and Muslim Siddis were in navy in large numbers. Interestingly his major battles were fought with the Rajput army lead by Mirza Raja Jaisingh on behalf of King Aurangzeb. When he was detained at Agra forte, of the two men on whom he relied for his eventual escape, one was a Muslim called Madari Mehtar. His confidential secretary was Maulana Haider Ali and the chief of his cannon division was Ibrahim Gardi. His respect for other religions was very clear and he respected the holy seers like 'Hazarat Baba Yaqut bahut Thorwale', whom he gave the life pension and also Father Ambrose, whose church was under attack in Gujarat. At his capital Raigad he erected a special mosque for Muslim devotees in front of his palace in the same way that he built the Jagadishwar temple for his own daily worship. During his military campaigns Shivaji had issued strict instructions to his men and officers that Muslim women and children should not be subjected to maltreatment. Mosques and Dargah's were given due protection. He also ordered that whenever a copy of Koran came into the hands of his men, they should show proper respect to the book and hand it over to a Muslim. The story of his bowing to the daughter-in-law of Bassein's Nawab is well known to all. When she was brought as a part of the loot and offered to him, he respectfully begged her pardon and asked his soldiers to reach her back from the place from where she was forcibly brought in. Shivaji was in no way actuated by any hatred towards Muslims as a sect or towards their religion. All this goes on to show the values of communal harmony which Shivaji pursued, and that his primary goal was to establish his own kingdom with maximum possible geographical area. To project him as anti-Muslim and anti-Islam is travesty of truth. Today rank casteist-communal forces are also in the bandwagon to ‘use’ Shivaji issue for their political goals. One recalls that Human rights activist Teesta Setalvad had prepared a hand book of History for the school teachers some time back. In this she pointed out that since Shivaji was a Shudra, the Brahmins refused to coronate him, so a Brahmin Gaga Bhat had to be brought from Kashi, who did the coronation ritual. Since Shivaji was a Shudra this coronation was done with the toe of his left foot by Gaga Bhat. The local Shiv Sena went on to oppose this handbook on the ground that the writer is calling him a Shudra. It is true that Shivaji was a Shudra and this incident is true. Similarly Bhandarkar Institute was attacked by the same people, Khedekar and company, on the pretext that this institute had helped James Lane write a book on Shivaji. It is well known that this book mentioned a rumor about the real parentage of Shivaji. While communal historiography has been the major tool in the arsenal of communal forces, now we are witnessing, ‘caste historiography’ to settle the scores of contemporary caste politics. It is sad. What is needed is to overcome these caste and communal angles to build the nation, while giving justice to the deprived sections, while planning affirmative actions for the marginalized sections. One also hopes the Government thinks of using the public money in a better way than raising statue. The making of statue should also take into consideration the ecological factors, and if these factors permit the statue, it should come up, with a proviso that the money for the statue will be raised from people. The government money should not be spent on this. -- Issues in Secular Politics June 2009 II For circulation/publication www.pluralindia.com _________________________________________ reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. Critiques & Collaborations To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with subscribe in the subject header. To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> Explore and discover exciting holidays and getaways with Yahoo! India Travel http://in.travel.yahoo.com/ From akmalik45 at yahoo.com Sun Jun 7 09:49:49 2009 From: akmalik45 at yahoo.com (A.K. Malik) Date: Sat, 6 Jun 2009 21:19:49 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Reader-list] Minority Sikhs attacked by Majority Muslim community members in Kashmir, yet again. Message-ID: <356437.94107.qm@web39102.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Hi Mr Kaul, This is what is called SECULAR in this country. Had a similar incident happened the other way round in Gujarat, everybody would have been after Modi's blood with National dailies printing it on first page. We have not read it in the National newspapers. Long live "SECULARISM" in this country!!! (A.K.MALIK) --- On Sat, 6/6/09, Aditya Raj Kaul wrote: > From: Aditya Raj Kaul > Subject: [Reader-list] Minority Sikhs attacked by Majority Muslim community members in Kashmir, yet again. > To: "sarai list" > Date: Saturday, June 6, 2009, 12:35 AM > *Communal clash at Rangreth averted* > > Excelsior Correspondent > > *Srinagar, June 4: *A scuffle which started after a cricket > match between > youngsters took an ugly turn and led to communal clashes in > Rangreth area of > Budgam district. > > Deputy Commissioner Budgam Mohammad Rafi, two National > Conference MLAs and > some prominent Sikh leaders had to intervene who finally > managed to cool > down the tempers between members of the two communities. > > Rafi said a fight over a cricket match yesterday led to > stone pelting in > which a vehicle driven by a Sikh was damaged, who allegedly > retaliated by > beating some youngsters belonging to the Muslim community. > > Later at night, a group of Muslim youth allegedly barged > into the houses of > Sikh community living in Rangreth and damaged vehicles and > some household > items. > > Outraged, some members of the community then took shelter > at a nearby > gurudwara and threatened to migrate out of the Kashmir > valley if Government > did not take any action. > > President of All Parties Sikh Coordination Committee > Jagmohan Singh Raina > alleged that many items like fridges and television sets, > besides 18 > vehicles were damaged. > > Situation in the area remained tense in the morning but > later DC Budgam, MLA > Budgam Aga Roohullah and MLA Amirakadal Nasir Aslam Wani > rushed to Rangreth > and managed to bring about a patch up between the two > communities. > Rafi also gave orders to assess the losses suffered during > attacks on > the houses > of Sikh community and said the affected will be > compensated. > > Members of both the communities then took out a "peace > march" in the area. > > Rafi expressed satisfaction that the issue was resolved > quickly saying the > area is known for "Sikh-Muslim brotherhood". > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the > city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net > with subscribe in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> From rakesh.rnbdj at gmail.com Sun Jun 7 10:41:48 2009 From: rakesh.rnbdj at gmail.com (Rakesh Iyer) Date: Sun, 7 Jun 2009 10:41:48 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Minority Sikhs attacked by Majority Muslim community members in Kashmir, yet again. In-Reply-To: <356437.94107.qm@web39102.mail.mud.yahoo.com> References: <356437.94107.qm@web39102.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: Dear Malik jee @ Malik jee: For once, I would agree with you. Our media has double standards on the issues which are highlighted in media. So the killing of 1 Muslim will be a huge eye catcher for TRP, but the killing of 1 Hindu or 1 Sikh wouldn't matter. Having said that, secularism is an ideology and can't be made impure or rid of its values thanks to the media or the Congress and other politica parties. And more importantly, in this case, the conflict was solved by amicable means, which is what should be done. If Modi would have played a role in that rather than allowing a pogrom to take place and then doing nothing about it, nobody would have gone hammer and tongs at him the way people have. Also, the entire Muslim or the Sikh or the Hindu community should not be castigated for such incidents, be it post-Godhra riots or this particular incident. Human values, secularism and indeed the importance of peace underline the fact that dignity of life must be maintained at all costs. And violence in any form, be it due to individual or state, must be abhorred and criticized. So the fact is that it's not secularism, but "PSEUDO-SECULARISM" which lives long in this country. Regards Rakesh From 2tahamehmood at googlemail.com Sun Jun 7 11:07:26 2009 From: 2tahamehmood at googlemail.com (Taha Mehmood) Date: Sun, 7 Jun 2009 06:37:26 +0100 Subject: [Reader-list] Analyzing the constant election analysis Message-ID: <65be9bf40906062237h73e5176sd53c628cb7ab7366@mail.gmail.com> http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/Opinion/Columnists/Santosh-Desai/City-City-Bang-Bang/Analyzing-the-constant-election-analysis/articleshow/4572872.cms Analyzing the constant election analysis 25 May 2009, 0000 hrs IST, Santosh Desai In the space of a few hours, the cacophony of doubt gave way to the lucidity of definitive knowledge. From a point of time when anyone dressed in khadi and leading a party of more than two people was seen as a potential Prime Ministerial candidate and the television screen was riddled with the self-doubt that comes from having too many permutations to juggle, the move to clarity was swift. All the confusion vanished and the air of authority of the many experts who have taken up residence in our homes, thanks to television, was restored. Experts tend to oscillate between presumptive knowledge and retrospective certitude, and the election results, once out, allowed experts to gravitate to the latter. Suddenly, it was quite clear what had happened. The specific explanation offered varied but the tone of certainty was a constant. A vote for stability, the youth vote, the provocative attacks on the PM that made the middle class strike back at the BJP, Varun Gandhi’s polarizing ways, Modi’s visibility nationally, Rahul Gandhi’s hitherto undiscovered political genius, a vote for good governance and against divisive caste politics, the return of national parties and the coming demise of regionalism - these are some of the more common explanations that were instantly discovered. And this happened even before the vote share data, without which any real analysis of election results is meaningless, came in. Even the things that most people seem agreed on may not stand up to scrutiny. The idea, for instance, that this was a vote for stability seems far-fetched given that the one thing that everyone was agreed on before the elections was that we would not have a stable government . For anyone to back any party on this basis would be an act of extreme optimism. Stability is a consequence of the vote but it is very doubtful that it was the intention. Similarly, there is no evidence so far that the youth vote has had any major role to play in the outcome. Now it is possible that this may turn out to be a variable when we look at the results more deeply, but so far this is only an unsupported hypothesis. However, all our media is full of the need for greater youth and we are looking long and hard at the age profile of the Cabinet. As Swaminathan Aiyar, in one of the few thoughtful analyses that have appeared after the elections, argued so persuasively in The Economic Times a few days ago, all of the dominant theories about why the Congress won are at best partial explanations. At a certain level, analysis can often be the delivery mechanism for our pre-conceived notions about the world. The explanation precedes the enquiry; we find the answers we already know. We find only those answers that fit the frames we use to see the world through. For example, since Varun Gandhi was seen as an issue before the elections, we explain the results through him. Because commentators thought that youth would play a role in the outcome, we continue to frame the results through this issue in spite of the fact that there is no basis we have to do so. Since a large section of media believes that voting should not be based on caste or communal lines, we are quick to embrace the theory that this result is a vindication of an existing belief. We see in the result what we want to see. At a deeper level, not being able to explain things satisfactorily is deeply dissatisfying. We look for big unifying answers rather than a series of small local explanations. The repeated use of the phrase ‘The Indian voter’ and the many allusions to his or her wisdom serve to implicitly render singular what is fiercely plural. There is no definitive voter and all of India’s decidedly diverse electorate can certainly not be regarded as a single organism with a unified consciousness. A statement like ‘The Indian voter has voted for stability’ is a meaningless one, not only because of the argument it contains but because the idea that millions of Indian voters have somehow acted in concert is a highly improbable one. Of course, it is possible to see some unifying pattern if it is overwhelmingly suggested by data, but in this case that is far from being true. The alleged wisdom of the electorate is in fact nothing but a sly surrogate for the wisdom of the analysts, who, to use Sunil Khilnani’s argument in a recent article loosely, use the electorate as a ventriloquist’s dummy to get their theories across. The other common pattern we see in these analyses is to explain elections in terms of people than in terms of issues. So even if Manmohan Singh may be electorally insignificant for a large part of India, we find it more comfortable to find an answer using his persona as a frame. It is even more difficult to accept that the reasons could lie in deeper structural shifts, for that seems too technical and too sterile to merit our consideration. The truth is that we are interested in explanations that use ideas that interest us. We can own things only when we hold the key to understanding them. Eventually deeper analyses will become available, but by that time we will have lost interest. Like the 2004 elections, which are now framed entirely through the alleged debacle that the India Shining campaign represented, ignoring many other equally significant variables, it is likely that the 2009 elections too are seen as the Arrival of the Youth or the Death of Communal Politics till the next elections come around and give us a new theory. santoshdesai1963 at indiatimes.com From vedavati_jogi at yahoo.com Sun Jun 7 11:12:31 2009 From: vedavati_jogi at yahoo.com (Vedavati Jogi) Date: Sun, 7 Jun 2009 11:12:31 +0530 (IST) Subject: [Reader-list] Fw: Re: i was stunned Message-ID: <289838.89194.qm@web94707.mail.in2.yahoo.com> good -that israel govt did not listen to you and returned socalled occupied territories to palestinians. i never knew that there are pseudo seculars in israel too (like india)   you feel govt. of india should give autonomy to kashmir, are you aware that kashmiri hindus have been thrown out of kashmir?  do you find muslims so trustworthy that in autonomous, muslims dominated state hindus can remain safe?   whole pakistan is a muslim occupied india, are you aware of that?    vedavati --- On Sun, 7/6/09, Alex Stein wrote: From: Alex Stein Subject: Re: i was stunned To: "Vedavati Jogi" Date: Sunday, 7 June, 2009, 2:58 AM 1. I think we should return the Occupied Territories (West Bank, Gaza, East Jerusalem) to the Palestinian people.   2. I never said I speak for Kashmir.   3. I think the valley should be autonomous (nobody should be removed from their homes).   4. That is for you and Pakistan to decide over the course - hopefully one day - of peace negotiations.   A falsedichotomies.com   "The most radical and the only secure form of possession is destruction, for only what we have destroyed is safely and forever ours." Hannah Arendt   --- On Sat, 6/6/09, Vedavati Jogi wrote: From: Vedavati Jogi Subject: Re: i was stunned To: "Alex Stein" Date: Saturday, 6 June, 2009, 7:38 PM hello alex, 1) will you give part of your country to any other nation? 2) who has given you right to speak for kashmir? 3) if kashmir is given to muslims what about those hindus who have been living there since last thousand years? 4) will you dare to tell pakistan to give our land back? vedavati --- On Sun, 7/6/09, Alex Stein wrote: From: Alex Stein Subject: Re: i was stunned To: "Vedavati Jogi" Date: Sunday, 7 June, 2009, 2:27 AM Hi Vedavti, Thanks for your email. We are not standing in opposition to Hindus. I deeply love India, its culture and its people. I believe, though, that the Kashmir people have a right to self-determination, just like anyone else, and I believe that it is in India's interest to grant it to them, at least when the time is right. Best wishes, Alex Stein   PS - you may be interested in my blog of my travels in India last summer - wanderingsatlan.blogspot.com falsedichotomies.com   "The most radical and the only secure form of possession is destruction, for only what we have destroyed is safely and forever ours." Hannah Arendt   --- On Fri, 5/6/09, Vedavati Jogi wrote: From: Vedavati Jogi Subject: i was stunned To: alex.stein at talk21.com Date: Friday, 5 June, 2009, 7:10 AM hello sir,   i went thru. your article about 'jeuish-kashmiri dialogue group honestly i was stunned. i believe you have been told absoluetly wrong history.     do you know how much these kashmiri hindus have suffered at the hands of muslims in kashmir?   hindusthan is the only country which gave shelter to people of your religion whole heartedly that was because hindusthan is a hindu dominated country. i really wonder how can you try to befriend muslims, basically how can you trust them? have you people not suffered at the hands of muslims? have you not heard about 'muslim brotherhood'? rightnow, you may think that muslims in kashmir were friendly with you hence they are nice. but are you sure that when you fight with other muslim countries, these same kashmiri friends of yours will support you against the latter?   i sincerely feel, hindus, and not muslims  can be your natural allies.   vedavati india Own a website.Get an unlimited package.Pay next to nothing.* Click here!. Explore and discover exciting holidays and getaways with Yahoo! India Travel Click here! Explore and discover exciting holidays and getaways with Yahoo! India Travel Click here! Explore and discover exciting holidays and getaways with Yahoo! India Travel http://in.travel.yahoo.com/ From rakesh.rnbdj at gmail.com Sun Jun 7 11:39:34 2009 From: rakesh.rnbdj at gmail.com (Rakesh Iyer) Date: Sun, 7 Jun 2009 11:39:34 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Fw: Re: i was stunned In-Reply-To: <289838.89194.qm@web94707.mail.in2.yahoo.com> References: <289838.89194.qm@web94707.mail.in2.yahoo.com> Message-ID: Dear Vedavati jee (and all) First of all, you should stop being a spokesman for the entire Hindu community. Who are you to say that Muslims have survived in India because the majority of people here were Hindus? Don't Muslims survive in America too? Don't they live in England? Don't they live in other nations, including China? And how did you draw the conclusion that Muslims have survived because of a Hindu majority in India? Secondly, I would strongly urge you or request you to stop looking at issues from Jewish, Hindu or Muslim point of view. We already had a great president in George Bush in America to do that and the world has paid a price for it. Similarly, we have our own Narendra Modi in India, who has been constantly trying to rupture the foundations of our Indian Republic as enshrined in the Constitution. By speaking out against secularism, you are speaking against the very Constitution of India, and for your own consideration, can be treated as a 'traitor' by the same yardstick of the Constitution. This is also for all those who constantly attack secularism on this forum. At least you are nationalistic, you should know this. Instead of venting out your anger, please give rational/logical arguments about why secularism is wrong. At least Ashish Nandy had a point when he said that secularism has increased communal violence in India, for secular modern development has cut off people from their cultural roots, who then take refuge in Hindutva and this leads to problems. What do you have as an argument against secularism? Please look at issues from a human angle. I accept that Kashmiri Hindus have a right, and the fate of any self-determined/Indian occupation/Pakistani occupation of Kashmir must take the views and ideas of all sections of the Kashmiri society into consideration. And as for the Kashmiri Pandits, to a certain degree India has failed them. And it was not as if under the right wing govt in India, they were living a life of paradise either. Thirdly, on a personal level, I would urge you to at least start trusting the ability of human beings, and having faith in them, at least till you have proof to the contrary. If you have suffered a tragedy at the hands of one Muslim or a few Muslims, it doesn't mean the entire community must be criticized for the same. And anyways, are not there bad people in the Hindu community? Weren't those who raped Muslim women in the post-Godhra riots Hindus? Weren't those who indulged in violence during that time Hindus? Is violence acceptable? Do you think rape is the way to solve 'Hindu-Muslim problem' which is in the minds first and on the roads later? Do you advocate this as the way to avenge Godhra? And if they are Hindus, which I hope you would accept, should the entire Hindu community be criticized? Should we denounce Hinduism? Are all Hindus then inhuman, as Osama Bin Laden would like the Muslims around the world to believe? Please think about this, it's a humble request from me. So also for the others. Here I am not saying you shouldn't be nationalistic (this I believe is very difficult to change), but at least for the sake of the nation which you put before yourself, at least understand the true nature of the problem instead of looking at it through skewed minds. Regards Rakesh From kmvenuannur at gmail.com Sun Jun 7 13:08:15 2009 From: kmvenuannur at gmail.com (Venugopalan K M) Date: Sun, 7 Jun 2009 13:08:15 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Fw: Re: i was stunned In-Reply-To: <289838.89194.qm@web94707.mail.in2.yahoo.com> References: <289838.89194.qm@web94707.mail.in2.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <1f9180970906070038t6ab3332el69b0f364abd11c4@mail.gmail.com> Ignorance may be bliss; arrogance might be bliss as well, at least until someone gets held up for rash assumptions on others.. However, certain manifestations of ignorance plus arrogance are better to be left as they are; I believe that will be healthy for people on both sides of the divide.. Feel no temptation to dispute the contents here; but who are you to speak for the entire Hindus in India,any way? Peace and love, Venu. On Sun, Jun 7, 2009 at 11:12 AM, Vedavati Jogi wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > good -that israel govt did not listen to you and returned socalled occupied > territories to palestinians. i never knew that there are pseudo seculars in > israel too (like india) > > you feel govt. of india should give autonomy to kashmir, are you aware that > kashmiri hindus have been thrown out of kashmir? > do you find muslims so trustworthy that in autonomous, muslims dominated > state hindus can remain safe? > > whole pakistan is a muslim occupied india, are you aware of that? > > vedavati > > --- On Sun, 7/6/09, Alex Stein wrote: > > > From: Alex Stein > Subject: Re: i was stunned > To: "Vedavati Jogi" > Date: Sunday, 7 June, 2009, 2:58 AM > > > > > > > > 1. I think we should return the Occupied Territories (West Bank, Gaza, East > Jerusalem) to the Palestinian people. > > 2. I never said I speak for Kashmir. > > 3. I think the valley should be autonomous (nobody should be removed from > their homes). > > 4. That is for you and Pakistan to decide over the course - hopefully one > day - of peace negotiations. > > A > > > falsedichotomies.com > > "The most radical and the only secure form of possession is destruction, > for only what we have destroyed is safely and forever ours." Hannah Arendt > > > > --- On Sat, 6/6/09, Vedavati Jogi wrote: > > > From: Vedavati Jogi > Subject: Re: i was stunned > To: "Alex Stein" > Date: Saturday, 6 June, 2009, 7:38 PM > > > > > > > > hello alex, > 1) will you give part of your country to any other nation? > 2) who has given you right to speak for kashmir? > 3) if kashmir is given to muslims what about those hindus who have been > living there since last thousand years? > 4) will you dare to tell pakistan to give our land back? > vedavati > > --- On Sun, 7/6/09, Alex Stein wrote: > > > From: Alex Stein > Subject: Re: i was stunned > To: "Vedavati Jogi" > Date: Sunday, 7 June, 2009, 2:27 AM > > > > > > > > Hi Vedavti, > Thanks for your email. > We are not standing in opposition to Hindus. I deeply love India, its > culture and its people. I believe, though, that the Kashmir people have a > right to self-determination, just like anyone else, and I believe that it is > in India's interest to grant it to them, at least when the time is right. > Best wishes, > Alex Stein > > PS - you may be interested in my blog of my travels in India last summer - > wanderingsatlan.blogspot.com > > > falsedichotomies.com > > "The most radical and the only secure form of possession is destruction, > for only what we have destroyed is safely and forever ours." Hannah Arendt > > > > --- On Fri, 5/6/09, Vedavati Jogi wrote: > > > From: Vedavati Jogi > Subject: i was stunned > To: alex.stein at talk21.com > Date: Friday, 5 June, 2009, 7:10 AM > > > > > > > > hello sir, > > i went thru. your article about 'jeuish-kashmiri dialogue group > honestly i was stunned. > i believe you have been told absoluetly wrong history. > > do you know how much these kashmiri hindus have suffered at the hands of > muslims in kashmir? > > hindusthan is the only country which gave shelter to people of your > religion whole heartedly that was because hindusthan is a hindu dominated > country. > i really wonder how can you try to befriend muslims, basically how can you > trust them? have you people not suffered at the hands of muslims? > have you not heard about 'muslim brotherhood'? > rightnow, you may think that muslims in kashmir were friendly with you > hence they are nice. but are you sure that when you fight with other muslim > countries, these same kashmiri friends of yours will support you against the > latter? > > i sincerely feel, hindus, and not muslims can be your natural allies. > > vedavati > india > > > Own a website.Get an unlimited package.Pay next to nothing.* Click here!. > > > > Explore and discover exciting holidays and getaways with Yahoo! India > Travel Click here! > > > > Explore and discover exciting holidays and getaways with Yahoo! India > Travel Click here! > > > Explore and discover exciting holidays and getaways with Yahoo! India > Travel http://in.travel.yahoo.com/ > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > subscribe in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: -- http://venukm.blogspot.com/ From rajen786uppinangady at gmail.com Sun Jun 7 13:23:32 2009 From: rajen786uppinangady at gmail.com (Rajendra Bhat Uppinangadi) Date: Sun, 7 Jun 2009 13:23:32 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] preachers do not practice what they preach.! Message-ID: <7271ec560906070053i1dabb5cw297c12cd88534d9b@mail.gmail.com> Dear Alex, please do not try the patience of indians with your sermons about Kashmir and its issues unless you are aware of all the issues involved in the issue. For one, you have the examples of those who wielded power, being so devout that they get inspired to be running crusades, like the great Tony Blair, who said that he was inspired to war as a crusade, to search for imagined weapons of mass destruction, and a certain Mr. Bush, again a devout who thought that democracies can be built on dead bodies of the soldiers of his nation and innocent civilians of the Afghanistan and Iraq. By the way, for your information, the subcontinent has accommodated all followers of all faiths, like jews, christians, protestants, bahai's etc, in its kingdoms even before the adventure of the business of East India Company with a thief like Robert Clive heading its thieving operation of the land mass, by divide and rule.In the process when freedom struggle in least violent, non violent means yielded freedom to all, it was the church which was backing the british, took new role of again taking sides with the Congress, please remember.But as secular indians we tolerate all sort of sermons, but please do not take it for granted, as younger generations are the impatient lot, love their freeom, need the peace and harmony for them in society, and also for the future generation of the nation, so please be more introspect on the role of the sermons and the church all over the world., which believes in harvesting the souls for numericl strength to dominate, not the moral strength of idealogy and principles of love and compassion, as the faith itself is hijacked to Rome by its founders in the present form. -- Rajen. From rakesh.rnbdj at gmail.com Sun Jun 7 13:43:35 2009 From: rakesh.rnbdj at gmail.com (Rakesh Iyer) Date: Sun, 7 Jun 2009 13:43:35 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Fw: Re: i was stunned In-Reply-To: <1f9180970906070038t6ab3332el69b0f364abd11c4@mail.gmail.com> References: <289838.89194.qm@web94707.mail.in2.yahoo.com> <1f9180970906070038t6ab3332el69b0f364abd11c4@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: Dear Venugopalan jee Could you kindly confirm whether your mail is addressed to me or to Vedavati jee? Regards Rakesh From kmvenuannur at gmail.com Sun Jun 7 13:46:45 2009 From: kmvenuannur at gmail.com (Venugopalan K M) Date: Sun, 7 Jun 2009 13:46:45 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Fw: Re: i was stunned In-Reply-To: <7271ec560906070103g40874f73y4d4574843eed26e3@mail.gmail.com> References: <289838.89194.qm@web94707.mail.in2.yahoo.com> <1f9180970906070038t6ab3332el69b0f364abd11c4@mail.gmail.com> <7271ec560906070103g40874f73y4d4574843eed26e3@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <1f9180970906070116jfa69412g71d44fbc2fa1e5fd@mail.gmail.com> Dear Rajen, Do you really believe that one would not make observations or statements only on behalf of on or other community?If you do ,this is precisely what many of us call communalism Best, Venu On Sun, Jun 7, 2009 at 1:33 PM, Rajendra Bhat Uppinangadi < rajen786uppinangady at gmail.com> wrote: > So, Mr. Alex is talking behalf of which community.? > > On Sun, Jun 7, 2009 at 1:08 PM, Venugopalan K M wrote: > >> Ignorance may be bliss; arrogance might be bliss as well, at least until >> someone gets held up for rash assumptions on others.. >> However, certain manifestations of ignorance plus arrogance are better to >> be >> left as they are; I believe that will be healthy for people on both sides >> of >> the divide.. >> Feel no temptation to dispute the contents here; >> but who are you to speak for the entire Hindus in India,any way? >> >> Peace and love, >> Venu. >> >> On Sun, Jun 7, 2009 at 11:12 AM, Vedavati Jogi > >wrote: >> >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > good -that israel govt did not listen to you and returned socalled >> occupied >> > territories to palestinians. i never knew that there are pseudo seculars >> in >> > israel too (like india) >> > >> > you feel govt. of india should give autonomy to kashmir, are you aware >> that >> > kashmiri hindus have been thrown out of kashmir? >> > do you find muslims so trustworthy that in autonomous, muslims dominated >> > state hindus can remain safe? >> > >> > whole pakistan is a muslim occupied india, are you aware of that? >> > >> > vedavati >> > >> > --- On Sun, 7/6/09, Alex Stein wrote: >> > >> > >> > From: Alex Stein >> > Subject: Re: i was stunned >> > To: "Vedavati Jogi" >> > Date: Sunday, 7 June, 2009, 2:58 AM >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > 1. I think we should return the Occupied Territories (West Bank, Gaza, >> East >> > Jerusalem) to the Palestinian people. >> > >> > 2. I never said I speak for Kashmir. >> > >> > 3. I think the valley should be autonomous (nobody should be removed >> from >> > their homes). >> > >> > 4. That is for you and Pakistan to decide over the course - hopefully >> one >> > day - of peace negotiations. >> > >> > A >> > >> > >> > falsedichotomies.com >> > >> > "The most radical and the only secure form of possession is destruction, >> > for only what we have destroyed is safely and forever ours." Hannah >> Arendt >> > >> > >> > >> > --- On Sat, 6/6/09, Vedavati Jogi wrote: >> > >> > >> > From: Vedavati Jogi >> > Subject: Re: i was stunned >> > To: "Alex Stein" >> > Date: Saturday, 6 June, 2009, 7:38 PM >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > hello alex, >> > 1) will you give part of your country to any other nation? >> > 2) who has given you right to speak for kashmir? >> > 3) if kashmir is given to muslims what about those hindus who have been >> > living there since last thousand years? >> > 4) will you dare to tell pakistan to give our land back? >> > vedavati >> > >> > --- On Sun, 7/6/09, Alex Stein wrote: >> > >> > >> > From: Alex Stein >> > Subject: Re: i was stunned >> > To: "Vedavati Jogi" >> > Date: Sunday, 7 June, 2009, 2:27 AM >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > Hi Vedavti, >> > Thanks for your email. >> > We are not standing in opposition to Hindus. I deeply love India, its >> > culture and its people. I believe, though, that the Kashmir people have >> a >> > right to self-determination, just like anyone else, and I believe that >> it is >> > in India's interest to grant it to them, at least when the time is >> right. >> > Best wishes, >> > Alex Stein >> > >> > PS - you may be interested in my blog of my travels in India last summer >> - >> > wanderingsatlan.blogspot.com >> > >> > >> > falsedichotomies.com >> > >> > "The most radical and the only secure form of possession is destruction, >> > for only what we have destroyed is safely and forever ours." Hannah >> Arendt >> > >> > >> > >> > --- On Fri, 5/6/09, Vedavati Jogi wrote: >> > >> > >> > From: Vedavati Jogi >> > Subject: i was stunned >> > To: alex.stein at talk21.com >> > Date: Friday, 5 June, 2009, 7:10 AM >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > hello sir, >> > >> > i went thru. your article about 'jeuish-kashmiri dialogue group >> > honestly i was stunned. >> > i believe you have been told absoluetly wrong history. >> > >> > do you know how much these kashmiri hindus have suffered at the hands >> of >> > muslims in kashmir? >> > >> > hindusthan is the only country which gave shelter to people of your >> > religion whole heartedly that was because hindusthan is a hindu >> dominated >> > country. >> > i really wonder how can you try to befriend muslims, basically how can >> you >> > trust them? have you people not suffered at the hands of muslims? >> > have you not heard about 'muslim brotherhood'? >> > rightnow, you may think that muslims in kashmir were friendly with you >> > hence they are nice. but are you sure that when you fight with other >> muslim >> > countries, these same kashmiri friends of yours will support you against >> the >> > latter? >> > >> > i sincerely feel, hindus, and not muslims can be your natural allies. >> > >> > vedavati >> > india >> > >> > >> > Own a website.Get an unlimited package.Pay next to nothing.* Click >> here!. >> > >> > >> > >> > Explore and discover exciting holidays and getaways with Yahoo! India >> > Travel Click here! >> > >> > >> > >> > Explore and discover exciting holidays and getaways with Yahoo! India >> > Travel Click here! >> > >> > >> > Explore and discover exciting holidays and getaways with Yahoo! >> India >> > Travel http://in.travel.yahoo.com/ >> > _________________________________________ >> > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. >> > Critiques & Collaborations >> > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with >> > subscribe in the subject header. >> > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list >> > List archive: >> >> >> >> >> -- >> http://venukm.blogspot.com/ >> _________________________________________ >> reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. >> Critiques & Collaborations >> To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with >> subscribe in the subject header. >> To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list >> List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> > > > > > -- > Rajen. > -- http://venukm.blogspot.com/ From kmvenuannur at gmail.com Sun Jun 7 13:54:25 2009 From: kmvenuannur at gmail.com (Venugopalan K M) Date: Sun, 7 Jun 2009 13:54:25 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Fw: Re: i was stunned In-Reply-To: References: <289838.89194.qm@web94707.mail.in2.yahoo.com> <1f9180970906070038t6ab3332el69b0f364abd11c4@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <1f9180970906070124q552bdf22wbeefcd6e32f79d6d@mail.gmail.com> Dear Rakesh, I am so sorry about the mess caused; I actually addressed none in particular. But definitely I was referring to the content of post by Ms Vedavati I hope she witll not take it as personally either. Regards, Venu.. On Sun, Jun 7, 2009 at 1:43 PM, Rakesh Iyer wrote: > Dear Venugopalan jee > > Could you kindly confirm whether your mail is addressed to me or to > Vedavati jee? > > Regards > > Rakesh > -- http://venukm.blogspot.com/ From rakesh.rnbdj at gmail.com Sun Jun 7 14:19:01 2009 From: rakesh.rnbdj at gmail.com (Rakesh Iyer) Date: Sun, 7 Jun 2009 14:19:01 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Fw: Re: i was stunned In-Reply-To: <7271ec560906070101i18880411tc867de1d0f1f0c42@mail.gmail.com> References: <289838.89194.qm@web94707.mail.in2.yahoo.com> <7271ec560906070101i18880411tc867de1d0f1f0c42@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: Dear Rajen jee You think I hate Modi. Interestingly, Modi hates non-vegetarians in his own party (like he hated Kashiram Rana of his own party). So much for hatred! The fact is that the developmental model which Modi brags about, is useless and sooner or later is going to lead Gujarat to utter disaster. The poverty levels in Gujarat are still about 14.07%. Around 2006-07, Modi and his govt. were bragging for being declared the best govt as per a survey conducted by the Rajiv Gandhi foundation. The reality is that the Modi govt. was rated best only for 'Economic Freedom'. As a proof, I give link of this article published in the Hindu: http://www.thehindubusinessline.com/2005/06/27/stories/2005062700200900.htm Modi is exactly doing what George Bush was good at, propagandas. If you say a lie 1000 times, people believe it's the truth. So, when Bush said again and again that Iraq had WMD's, Americans were convinced, or at least a section were. And the local media was used very easily. Similar is the case in Gujarat, where the local Gujarati media plays in hands of Modi, and he convinced them and still does so that not only do Muslims deserve to be second class citizens (which is now implicit post Godhra), but also that his developmental model is the best. More importantly, what he has done is only going to prove disastrous in the long run. Around the coastal regions, you have factories coming up without proper laws or procedure being followed, and the result is that the salt which is obtained from sea water in these coastal regions is turning black due to pollution from the factories. This is Modi's management! And I say Modi because he likes to show that he is the boss. Please don't get swept away by the Modi mania, otherwise India will anyways hit a six by sweeping him over the ropes when the battle comes up in 2014, and you will then feel bad about it. As for the other riots, all those involved in them,directly and indirectly, belonging to whichever party and whichever community, or being of any religion, should be put behind bars and cases properly registered, investigated and taken to their logical conclusions in the quickest possible time. Those who don't do so, whether it be Modi in Gujarat or the Congress in Delhi, are culprits, at least as I see it. Regards Rakesh On Sun, Jun 7, 2009 at 1:31 PM, Rajendra Bhat Uppinangadi < rajen786uppinangady at gmail.com> wrote: > Dear Rakesh, > > you seem to have the patent hate for the leaders like Modi who have > administered well, got elected again and again because of the good > governance, and conveniently forget that many other riots have shown that > all humans have an animal side to them, like in Bhagalpur riots, it was > goons of other political parties had raped the muslim women and killed > innocent muslims in many other riots. To generalise that only in one state > gujarath the riots had muslim as victims shows tht insufficient study has > taken place,please find enclosed a study of riots which was postd in the > list for your ready reference. > > Regards, > > Rajen. > > On Sun, Jun 7, 2009 at 11:39 AM, Rakesh Iyer wrote: > >> Dear Vedavati jee (and all) >> >> First of all, you should stop being a spokesman for the entire Hindu >> community. Who are you to say that Muslims have survived in India because >> the majority of people here were Hindus? Don't Muslims survive in America >> too? Don't they live in England? Don't they live in other nations, >> including >> China? And how did you draw the conclusion that Muslims have survived >> because of a Hindu majority in India? >> >> Secondly, I would strongly urge you or request you to stop looking at >> issues >> from Jewish, Hindu or Muslim point of view. We already had a great >> president >> in George Bush in America to do that and the world has paid a price for >> it. >> Similarly, we have our own Narendra Modi in India, who has been constantly >> trying to rupture the foundations of our Indian Republic as enshrined in >> the >> Constitution. >> >> By speaking out against secularism, you are speaking against the very >> Constitution of India, and for your own consideration, can be treated as a >> 'traitor' by the same yardstick of the Constitution. This is also for all >> those who constantly attack secularism on this forum. At least you are >> nationalistic, you should know this. >> >> Instead of venting out your anger, please give rational/logical arguments >> about why secularism is wrong. At least Ashish Nandy had a point when he >> said that secularism has increased communal violence in India, for secular >> modern development has cut off people from their cultural roots, who then >> take refuge in Hindutva and this leads to problems. What do you have as an >> argument against secularism? >> >> Please look at issues from a human angle. I accept that Kashmiri Hindus >> have >> a right, and the fate of any self-determined/Indian occupation/Pakistani >> occupation of Kashmir must take the views and ideas of all sections of the >> Kashmiri society into consideration. And as for the Kashmiri Pandits, to a >> certain degree India has failed them. And it was not as if under the right >> wing govt in India, they were living a life of paradise either. >> >> Thirdly, on a personal level, I would urge you to at least start trusting >> the ability of human beings, and having faith in them, at least till you >> have proof to the contrary. If you have suffered a tragedy at the hands of >> one Muslim or a few Muslims, it doesn't mean the entire community must be >> criticized for the same. And anyways, are not there bad people in the >> Hindu >> community? >> >> Weren't those who raped Muslim women in the post-Godhra riots Hindus? >> Weren't those who indulged in violence during that time Hindus? Is >> violence >> acceptable? Do you think rape is the way to solve 'Hindu-Muslim problem' >> which is in the minds first and on the roads later? Do you advocate this >> as >> the way to avenge Godhra? >> >> And if they are Hindus, which I hope you would accept, should the entire >> Hindu community be criticized? Should we denounce Hinduism? Are all Hindus >> then inhuman, as Osama Bin Laden would like the Muslims around the world >> to >> believe? >> >> Please think about this, it's a humble request from me. So also for the >> others. Here I am not saying you shouldn't be nationalistic (this I >> believe >> is very difficult to change), but at least for the sake of the nation >> which >> you put before yourself, at least understand the true nature of the >> problem >> instead of looking at it through skewed minds. >> >> Regards >> >> Rakesh >> _________________________________________ >> reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. >> Critiques & Collaborations >> To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with >> subscribe in the subject header. >> To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list >> List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> > > > > > -- > Rajen. > From kmvenuannur at gmail.com Sun Jun 7 14:22:22 2009 From: kmvenuannur at gmail.com (Venugopalan K M) Date: Sun, 7 Jun 2009 14:22:22 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Fw: Re: i was stunned In-Reply-To: <7271ec560906070120i44caa03dr88c30def4e01b49b@mail.gmail.com> References: <289838.89194.qm@web94707.mail.in2.yahoo.com> <1f9180970906070038t6ab3332el69b0f364abd11c4@mail.gmail.com> <7271ec560906070103g40874f73y4d4574843eed26e3@mail.gmail.com> <1f9180970906070116jfa69412g71d44fbc2fa1e5fd@mail.gmail.com> <7271ec560906070120i44caa03dr88c30def4e01b49b@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <1f9180970906070152v787fcd56mf17181159ee8e587@mail.gmail.com> Anybody doubts that Vedavati was speaking on behalf of Hindus total? Let her clarify it for all of us.(Sorry,if I am assuming the wrong gender for Ms/MrVedavati. Kindly help it too) Regards, Venu On Sun, Jun 7, 2009 at 1:50 PM, Rajendra Bhat Uppinangadi < rajen786uppinangady at gmail.com> wrote: > If, one vedavathi speaks she is on behalf of hindus, if one alex speaks it > is observation, true secular in practice and preaching.! > > > On Sun, Jun 7, 2009 at 1:46 PM, Venugopalan K M wrote: > >> Dear Rajen, >> Do you really believe that one would not make observations or statements >> only on behalf of on or other community?If you do ,this is precisely what >> many of us call communalism >> Best, >> Venu >> >> On Sun, Jun 7, 2009 at 1:33 PM, Rajendra Bhat Uppinangadi < >> rajen786uppinangady at gmail.com> wrote: >> >>> So, Mr. Alex is talking behalf of which community.? >>> >>> On Sun, Jun 7, 2009 at 1:08 PM, Venugopalan K M wrote: >>> >>>> Ignorance may be bliss; arrogance might be bliss as well, at least until >>>> someone gets held up for rash assumptions on others.. >>>> However, certain manifestations of ignorance plus arrogance are better >>>> to be >>>> left as they are; I believe that will be healthy for people on both >>>> sides of >>>> the divide.. >>>> Feel no temptation to dispute the contents here; >>>> but who are you to speak for the entire Hindus in India,any way? >>>> >>>> Peace and love, >>>> Venu. >>>> >>>> On Sun, Jun 7, 2009 at 11:12 AM, Vedavati Jogi >>> >wrote: >>>> >>>> > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> > good -that israel govt did not listen to you and returned socalled >>>> occupied >>>> > territories to palestinians. i never knew that there are pseudo >>>> seculars in >>>> > israel too (like india) >>>> > >>>> > you feel govt. of india should give autonomy to kashmir, are you aware >>>> that >>>> > kashmiri hindus have been thrown out of kashmir? >>>> > do you find muslims so trustworthy that in autonomous, muslims >>>> dominated >>>> > state hindus can remain safe? >>>> > >>>> > whole pakistan is a muslim occupied india, are you aware of that? >>>> > >>>> > vedavati >>>> > >>>> > --- On Sun, 7/6/09, Alex Stein wrote: >>>> > >>>> > >>>> > From: Alex Stein >>>> > Subject: Re: i was stunned >>>> > To: "Vedavati Jogi" >>>> > Date: Sunday, 7 June, 2009, 2:58 AM >>>> > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> > 1. I think we should return the Occupied Territories (West Bank, Gaza, >>>> East >>>> > Jerusalem) to the Palestinian people. >>>> > >>>> > 2. I never said I speak for Kashmir. >>>> > >>>> > 3. I think the valley should be autonomous (nobody should be removed >>>> from >>>> > their homes). >>>> > >>>> > 4. That is for you and Pakistan to decide over the course - hopefully >>>> one >>>> > day - of peace negotiations. >>>> > >>>> > A >>>> > >>>> > >>>> > falsedichotomies.com >>>> > >>>> > "The most radical and the only secure form of possession is >>>> destruction, >>>> > for only what we have destroyed is safely and forever ours." Hannah >>>> Arendt >>>> > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> > --- On Sat, 6/6/09, Vedavati Jogi wrote: >>>> > >>>> > >>>> > From: Vedavati Jogi >>>> > Subject: Re: i was stunned >>>> > To: "Alex Stein" >>>> > Date: Saturday, 6 June, 2009, 7:38 PM >>>> > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> > hello alex, >>>> > 1) will you give part of your country to any other nation? >>>> > 2) who has given you right to speak for kashmir? >>>> > 3) if kashmir is given to muslims what about those hindus who have >>>> been >>>> > living there since last thousand years? >>>> > 4) will you dare to tell pakistan to give our land back? >>>> > vedavati >>>> > >>>> > --- On Sun, 7/6/09, Alex Stein wrote: >>>> > >>>> > >>>> > From: Alex Stein >>>> > Subject: Re: i was stunned >>>> > To: "Vedavati Jogi" >>>> > Date: Sunday, 7 June, 2009, 2:27 AM >>>> > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> > Hi Vedavti, >>>> > Thanks for your email. >>>> > We are not standing in opposition to Hindus. I deeply love India, its >>>> > culture and its people. I believe, though, that the Kashmir people >>>> have a >>>> > right to self-determination, just like anyone else, and I believe that >>>> it is >>>> > in India's interest to grant it to them, at least when the time is >>>> right. >>>> > Best wishes, >>>> > Alex Stein >>>> > >>>> > PS - you may be interested in my blog of my travels in India last >>>> summer - >>>> > wanderingsatlan.blogspot.com >>>> > >>>> > >>>> > falsedichotomies.com >>>> > >>>> > "The most radical and the only secure form of possession is >>>> destruction, >>>> > for only what we have destroyed is safely and forever ours." Hannah >>>> Arendt >>>> > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> > --- On Fri, 5/6/09, Vedavati Jogi wrote: >>>> > >>>> > >>>> > From: Vedavati Jogi >>>> > Subject: i was stunned >>>> > To: alex.stein at talk21.com >>>> > Date: Friday, 5 June, 2009, 7:10 AM >>>> > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> > hello sir, >>>> > >>>> > i went thru. your article about 'jeuish-kashmiri dialogue group >>>> > honestly i was stunned. >>>> > i believe you have been told absoluetly wrong history. >>>> > >>>> > do you know how much these kashmiri hindus have suffered at the hands >>>> of >>>> > muslims in kashmir? >>>> > >>>> > hindusthan is the only country which gave shelter to people of your >>>> > religion whole heartedly that was because hindusthan is a hindu >>>> dominated >>>> > country. >>>> > i really wonder how can you try to befriend muslims, basically how can >>>> you >>>> > trust them? have you people not suffered at the hands of muslims? >>>> > have you not heard about 'muslim brotherhood'? >>>> > rightnow, you may think that muslims in kashmir were friendly with you >>>> > hence they are nice. but are you sure that when you fight with other >>>> muslim >>>> > countries, these same kashmiri friends of yours will support you >>>> against the >>>> > latter? >>>> > >>>> > i sincerely feel, hindus, and not muslims can be your natural allies. >>>> > >>>> > vedavati >>>> > india >>>> > >>>> > >>>> > Own a website.Get an unlimited package.Pay next to nothing.* Click >>>> here!. >>>> > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> > Explore and discover exciting holidays and getaways with Yahoo! India >>>> > Travel Click here! >>>> > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> > Explore and discover exciting holidays and getaways with Yahoo! India >>>> > Travel Click here! >>>> > >>>> > >>>> > Explore and discover exciting holidays and getaways with Yahoo! >>>> India >>>> > Travel http://in.travel.yahoo.com/ >>>> > _________________________________________ >>>> > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. >>>> > Critiques & Collaborations >>>> > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with >>>> > subscribe in the subject header. >>>> > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list >>>> > List archive: >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> -- >>>> http://venukm.blogspot.com/ >>>> _________________________________________ >>>> reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. >>>> Critiques & Collaborations >>>> To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with >>>> subscribe in the subject header. >>>> To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list >>>> List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> -- >>> Rajen. >>> >> >> >> >> -- >> http://venukm.blogspot.com/ >> > > > > -- > Rajen. > -- http://venukm.blogspot.com/ From c.anupam at gmail.com Sun Jun 7 14:36:55 2009 From: c.anupam at gmail.com (anupam chakravartty) Date: Sun, 7 Jun 2009 14:36:55 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Fw: Re: i was stunned In-Reply-To: References: <289838.89194.qm@web94707.mail.in2.yahoo.com> <7271ec560906070101i18880411tc867de1d0f1f0c42@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <341380d00906070206m2e43d179nfcbaf10381f7f435@mail.gmail.com> Dear Rajen, Modi is nothing but an advertising genius. while he can advertise about GM plants in Halol and metro coach, heritage site in Pavagadh in Panchmahals, Halol town doesnt have single drainage system in the town. if you ever go there, you might find disgruntled BJP chairman of the nagarpalika, nitin shah, who has been running from pillar to post in gandhinagar for drainage system in the town. successive governments including congres and BJP were not bothered about it, even Modi isnt. if you think he is able administrator, you are living in some different world. secondly, modi recently stated that gujarat would lead the second green revolution. if you ever find out about project sunshine of distributing monsanto hybrid seeds to trbal farmers you will gasp. for first two years, they were given free seeds for maize, this year monsanto with the consent of gujarat government is distributing the seeds for Rs 500 a pack for a farmer who has to pawn his fields to buy the seeds. i would not be surprised if another vidarbha like situation starts in gujarat. offcourse the yields can only get better with continous usage of fertilizers and pesticides (most of them have restricted usage in the nation) altering the quality of the soil forever. able administration comes from humble admissions that yes this is not working in my state and i need to fix it. it doesnt come loud, absolutely juvenile statements. other chief ministers do not do so at least in my knowledge but what mr modi has been doing is advertising campaign which has buyers such as you. thanks anupam On 6/7/09, Rakesh Iyer wrote: > > Dear Rajen jee > > You think I hate Modi. Interestingly, Modi hates non-vegetarians in his own > party (like he hated Kashiram Rana of his own party). So much for hatred! > > The fact is that the developmental model which Modi brags about, is useless > and sooner or later is going to lead Gujarat to utter disaster. The poverty > levels in Gujarat are still about 14.07%. Around 2006-07, Modi and his > govt. > were bragging for being declared the best govt as per a survey conducted by > the Rajiv Gandhi foundation. The reality is that the Modi govt. was rated > best only for 'Economic Freedom'. > > As a proof, I give link of this article published in the Hindu: > > http://www.thehindubusinessline.com/2005/06/27/stories/2005062700200900.htm > > Modi is exactly doing what George Bush was good at, propagandas. If you say > a lie 1000 times, people believe it's the truth. So, when Bush said again > and again that Iraq had WMD's, Americans were convinced, or at least a > section were. And the local media was used very easily. Similar is the case > in Gujarat, where the local Gujarati media plays in hands of Modi, and he > convinced them and still does so that not only do Muslims deserve to be > second class citizens (which is now implicit post Godhra), but also that > his > developmental model is the best. > > More importantly, what he has done is only going to prove disastrous in the > long run. Around the coastal regions, you have factories coming up without > proper laws or procedure being followed, and the result is that the salt > which is obtained from sea water in these coastal regions is turning black > due to pollution from the factories. This is Modi's management! And I say > Modi because he likes to show that he is the boss. > > Please don't get swept away by the Modi mania, otherwise India will anyways > hit a six by sweeping him over the ropes when the battle comes up in 2014, > and you will then feel bad about it. > > As for the other riots, all those involved in them,directly and indirectly, > belonging to whichever party and whichever community, or being of any > religion, should be put behind bars and cases properly registered, > investigated and taken to their logical conclusions in the quickest > possible > time. Those who don't do so, whether it be Modi in Gujarat or the Congress > in Delhi, are culprits, at least as I see it. > > Regards > > Rakesh > > > > > On Sun, Jun 7, 2009 at 1:31 PM, Rajendra Bhat Uppinangadi < > rajen786uppinangady at gmail.com> wrote: > > > Dear Rakesh, > > > > you seem to have the patent hate for the leaders like Modi who have > > administered well, got elected again and again because of the good > > governance, and conveniently forget that many other riots have shown that > > all humans have an animal side to them, like in Bhagalpur riots, it was > > goons of other political parties had raped the muslim women and killed > > innocent muslims in many other riots. To generalise that only in one > state > > gujarath the riots had muslim as victims shows tht insufficient study has > > taken place,please find enclosed a study of riots which was postd in the > > list for your ready reference. > > > > Regards, > > > > Rajen. > > > > On Sun, Jun 7, 2009 at 11:39 AM, Rakesh Iyer >wrote: > > > >> Dear Vedavati jee (and all) > >> > >> First of all, you should stop being a spokesman for the entire Hindu > >> community. Who are you to say that Muslims have survived in India > because > >> the majority of people here were Hindus? Don't Muslims survive in > America > >> too? Don't they live in England? Don't they live in other nations, > >> including > >> China? And how did you draw the conclusion that Muslims have survived > >> because of a Hindu majority in India? > >> > >> Secondly, I would strongly urge you or request you to stop looking at > >> issues > >> from Jewish, Hindu or Muslim point of view. We already had a great > >> president > >> in George Bush in America to do that and the world has paid a price for > >> it. > >> Similarly, we have our own Narendra Modi in India, who has been > constantly > >> trying to rupture the foundations of our Indian Republic as enshrined in > >> the > >> Constitution. > >> > >> By speaking out against secularism, you are speaking against the very > >> Constitution of India, and for your own consideration, can be treated as > a > >> 'traitor' by the same yardstick of the Constitution. This is also for > all > >> those who constantly attack secularism on this forum. At least you are > >> nationalistic, you should know this. > >> > >> Instead of venting out your anger, please give rational/logical > arguments > >> about why secularism is wrong. At least Ashish Nandy had a point when he > >> said that secularism has increased communal violence in India, for > secular > >> modern development has cut off people from their cultural roots, who > then > >> take refuge in Hindutva and this leads to problems. What do you have as > an > >> argument against secularism? > >> > >> Please look at issues from a human angle. I accept that Kashmiri Hindus > >> have > >> a right, and the fate of any self-determined/Indian occupation/Pakistani > >> occupation of Kashmir must take the views and ideas of all sections of > the > >> Kashmiri society into consideration. And as for the Kashmiri Pandits, to > a > >> certain degree India has failed them. And it was not as if under the > right > >> wing govt in India, they were living a life of paradise either. > >> > >> Thirdly, on a personal level, I would urge you to at least start > trusting > >> the ability of human beings, and having faith in them, at least till you > >> have proof to the contrary. If you have suffered a tragedy at the hands > of > >> one Muslim or a few Muslims, it doesn't mean the entire community must > be > >> criticized for the same. And anyways, are not there bad people in the > >> Hindu > >> community? > >> > >> Weren't those who raped Muslim women in the post-Godhra riots Hindus? > >> Weren't those who indulged in violence during that time Hindus? Is > >> violence > >> acceptable? Do you think rape is the way to solve 'Hindu-Muslim problem' > >> which is in the minds first and on the roads later? Do you advocate this > >> as > >> the way to avenge Godhra? > >> > >> And if they are Hindus, which I hope you would accept, should the entire > >> Hindu community be criticized? Should we denounce Hinduism? Are all > Hindus > >> then inhuman, as Osama Bin Laden would like the Muslims around the world > >> to > >> believe? > >> > >> Please think about this, it's a humble request from me. So also for the > >> others. Here I am not saying you shouldn't be nationalistic (this I > >> believe > >> is very difficult to change), but at least for the sake of the nation > >> which > >> you put before yourself, at least understand the true nature of the > >> problem > >> instead of looking at it through skewed minds. > >> > >> Regards > >> > >> Rakesh > >> _________________________________________ > >> reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > >> Critiques & Collaborations > >> To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > >> subscribe in the subject header. > >> To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > >> List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> > > > > > > > > > > -- > > Rajen. > > > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > subscribe in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> From aliens at dataone.in Sun Jun 7 14:52:52 2009 From: aliens at dataone.in (bipin) Date: Sun, 07 Jun 2009 14:52:52 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Hindu article Message-ID: <006e01c9e751$89062ba0$0201a8c0@limo> Dear All, Who ever written this article HIndu is base less and far from truth. It is totally false that Muslims are treated as second class citizen in Gujarat. You ask any aam Muslim in Gujarat (don't ask chamcha's of Teesta and their cottary) and you will have truth. Even I have many net Muslim friends from other states and on discussion, they agreed that their relatives in Gujarat are far happy and feel safety in Gujarat thanks BIPIN From kmvenuannur at gmail.com Sun Jun 7 16:30:28 2009 From: kmvenuannur at gmail.com (Venugopalan K M) Date: Sun, 7 Jun 2009 16:30:28 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Hindu article In-Reply-To: <006e01c9e751$89062ba0$0201a8c0@limo> References: <006e01c9e751$89062ba0$0201a8c0@limo> Message-ID: <1f9180970906070400r2e988177uc885c0c642a43bef@mail.gmail.com> Dear Bipin, I'm afraid you are abusing he commonsense of everybody here. Why don't you dispute what is already given there on the basis of merit and substance? What do you mean by Chamchas of Teesta? And is what is so bad about Tessta and their "cottary"? About the Muslim citizens of Gujarat, again you arrogate to yourself the privilege of paassing a judgement! Of whom at least two thousand people were killed and over a lakh are reportedly yet to return to their homes since the organized crimes of post-Godhra 2002, if they are not being treated as second class citizens, are they being treated as non-citizens? Will you please check the truth for yourself rather than advising others to meet your Muslim friends in other states or to meet the 'aam Muslims' in Gujaratin your imagination? Or rather, do you mean that they are graciously being allowed by Modi to stay free of further fears of being targeted for killing and raping by Hindus? That case, you are wrong sir; instead, it is apparently because the killing hordes themselves had realized that Modi is not God to ensure them impunity and because they come to realize that Modi himself is under the shadow of trial under the IPC and the Cr PC for his culpability in what transpired after Godhra. >"they agree that their relatives are far happy and feel safety in Gujarat" How cool! How strange of a people constituting about 1/5 th of the entire population confiding the secret to you being allowed to feel safe in their own lands and homes! Best, Venu. On Sun, Jun 7, 2009 at 2:52 PM, bipin wrote: > Dear All, > > Who ever written this article HIndu is base less and far from truth. It is > totally false that Muslims are treated as second class citizen in Gujarat. > You ask any aam Muslim in Gujarat (don't ask chamcha's of Teesta and their > cottary) and you will have truth. > > Even I have many net Muslim friends from other states and on discussion, > they agreed that their relatives in Gujarat are far happy and feel safety in > Gujarat > > thanks > BIPIN > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > subscribe in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> -- http://venukm.blogspot.com/ From kshmendra2005 at yahoo.com Sun Jun 7 17:27:11 2009 From: kshmendra2005 at yahoo.com (Kshmendra Kaul) Date: Sun, 7 Jun 2009 04:57:11 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Reader-list] "Separatist leader quits on Facebook" (Sajjad Lone of Kashmir) Message-ID: <258725.11530.qm@web57203.mail.re3.yahoo.com> Peerzada Ashiq, Hindustan Times   New Delhi, June 03, 2009     "Separatist leader quits on Facebook"   After witnessing divorces, marriages, link-ups and social campaigns, social networking website Facebook is providing space to fallen politicians too.   The site is being used to announce political sanyas (renunciation).   And the first one to announce his is the lone separatist leader from the Kashmir Valley who decided to make a U-turn on his 22 years of separatism to participate in the recently concluded Lok Sabha elections.   Sajjad Lone had sought to justify his decision by saying he would use the floor of Parliament to espouse “the Kashmir cause”. Separatists have always questioned the legitimacy of elections in Jammu and Kashmir and urged people to boycott them. But Lone, in a bold departure, chose to contest the polls.   He became the first high-profile separatist to do so but was defeated from Baramullah, ranking third.   Lone (42), son of slain separatist leader Abdul Ghani Lone, has now hinted at ending his political life in a reply to his wife Asma Lone’s Facebook message.   Asma, daughter of Jammu and Kashmir Liberation Front (JKLF) chairman Amanullah Khan, lives in Pakistan. The couple has not been able to meet for a long time now. Lone’s wife and two sons have been denied visas by Indian authorities.   “I wish everybody else understood the complexities of my situation as you (Asma) do. I will always feel passionately for Kashmiris. But I don't think I can espouse any cause any more,” writes Lone in reply to his wife’s emotional message.   An emotional and dejected Lone adds: “I think it is the end of the road for me. I want to spend time with you and with Emad and Adnan.” Emad and Adnan are Lone’s sons.   Since his defeat, Lone has not spoken to the media. He hasn't even met his close friends in Srinagar or commented on his poll debacle.   http://www.hindustantimes.com/StoryPage/StoryPage.aspx?sectionName=HomePage&id=f24a4a7e-14fd-4aaa-bcbd-7c5483ff3188&Headline=Separatist+leader+quits+on+Facebook   http://www.hindustantimes.com/StoryPage/Print.aspx?Id=f24a4a7e-14fd-4aaa-bcbd-7c5483ff3188               From kshmendra2005 at yahoo.com Sun Jun 7 17:31:56 2009 From: kshmendra2005 at yahoo.com (Kshmendra Kaul) Date: Sun, 7 Jun 2009 05:01:56 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Reader-list] "Former militant renounces extremism" (Maajid Nawaz in Pakistan) Message-ID: <500812.36580.qm@web57204.mail.re3.yahoo.com> "Former militant renounces extremism"   Sunday, 07 Jun, 2009   ISLAMABAD: Ten years ago, Maajid Nawaz came to Pakistan to recruit for an extremist group intent on a global Islamic state. Now he's on a different mission — to steer youth away from militancy.   Nawaz's message is one rarely heard in Pakistan, where the response to extremism has been overwhelmingly military, with little attempt to try to rehabilitate insurgents or keep young people from turning to militancy in the first place. In speeches to thousands of university students across the country, Nawaz emphasized the urgent need to renounce radicalism. ‘We must reclaim Islam,’ the British citizen of Pakistani descent told some 100 students on a campus close to the capital last month. ‘We must reclaim Pakistan.’ While Pakistan has poured troops and weaponry into its fight against the Taliban and other extremist groups, it has adopted few of the softer measures aimed at dissuading militancy. And critics say that is a major weakness in Pakistan's strategy against terrorism. ‘There is no country where such a program is more important than in Pakistan,’ said Rohan Gunaratna, a terrorism expert who chaired the first international conference on militant rehabilitation in Singapore in February. ‘In parallel with the kinetic fight to catch and kill terrorists, there needs to be a parallel policy to fight the ideology.’ There are signs Pakistan is considering such a program. Senior officials recently went to Saudi Arabia to study the effort there, considered the world's most comprehensive. Egypt pioneered the idea of militant rehabilitation in the 1990s, and Yemen, Singapore, Indonesia and Malaysia have also followed suit. The programs involve counseling by moderate clerics and former extremists. Militants who renounce their old ways can receive financial support or help finding a job. Parallel programs in schools and mosques are aimed at young people. A former Guantanamo Bay detainee, Saad Iqbal Madni, said he would welcome such a program in Pakistan. ‘If I had a little support, I could tell them that killing innocent people is not from Islam,’ said Madni, who was freed last year. Madni, who was never charged, denied engaging in violence, but said he would have credibility with fellow Pakistanis. The results from such soft tactics have varied, said Christopher Boucek, who recently published a report on the Saudi program for the Carnegie Endowment for International Peace. Indonesia has persuaded prominent terrorists to disavow violence and counsel others to do the same. But 23 of 117 Saudis who returned from Guantanamo and passed through the Saudi system have been re-arrested or are on the government's most-wanted terrorist list, said Boucek. Shazadi Beg, a London-based human rights lawyer who has studied the need for such programs in Pakistan, said they are important because most militant recruits are young men with a limited understanding of Islam and no other way to earn a living. A further complication is that for years the Pakistani government actively sponsored extremists to use as proxies in Afghanistan and Kashmir, a territory claimed by both Pakistan and India. ‘In Saudi, you're dealing with relatively small groups, but in Pakistan the jails are full with these sorts of detainees,’ said Mohammed Amir Rana, a terrorism expert at the Pakistan Institute for Peace Studies. ‘The problem is the number of people the government wants to be rehabilitated.’ Most of Pakistan's 180 million people follow a moderate form of Islam influenced by local traditions, but hard-liners have made significant inroads since the 1980s. Anger at the US invasion of Afghanistan and support for a succession of Pakistani leaders seen as corrupt and illegitimate have swelled their ranks. Another problem, said Pakistani lawmaker Mushahid Hussain, is that Pakistan is late to realize how serious a threat militants pose. Bureaucratic inertia is strong, he says, along with an aversion to new ideas and a state of denial. ‘Unless (the programs) start, we don't know how successful they will be,’ Hussain said. ‘It is not a battle of bombs and bullets. It is a battle of ideas.’ Nazar, the extremist turned inspirational speaker, used to belong to Hizb ut-Tahrir, which claims to have hundreds of thousands of members around the world working on establishing an Islamic caliphate. The group pledges nonviolence, but Nawaz alleges that in some countries — including nuclear-armed Pakistan — a key strategy was to foment a military coup. Pakistan has formally banned the group, as have several other Muslim countries, but authorities are not really enforcing the ban. Its members take part in demonstrations, hold public meetings and hand out leaflets largely unobstructed. In 1999, Hizb ut-Tahrir paid for Nawaz to go to Pakistan, ostensibly as a student, to recruit members. He traveled all over the country doing so. Later, he went to Egypt, where he was imprisoned for four years for recruiting for the group. He met other radicals, studied Islamic texts in jail and gradually changed his opinions, he said. He now believes that Islam calls for the separation of the faith and politics. Imran Yousafzai, deputy spokesman of Hizb ut-Tahrir in Pakistan, said he was aware of Nawaz's activities in Pakistan. ‘I heard he was once an active member in Pakistan,’ he said. ‘I am sad to say that he is now working against Islam.’ During his recent appearances on college campuses, some students questioned why Nawaz was ‘attacking’ Islam and not US foreign policy in Pakistan and Afghanistan. One hard-liner, whom Nawaz accuses of being a member of Hizb ut-Tahrir, punched him in the face after a talk in the eastern city of Lahore. Nawaz said he hopes to start a network of moderate Pakistani Muslims to speak out against extremism. He gets a salary as director of the Quilliam Foundation, a mainstream think tank that challenges extremism and promotes pluralism, and is partly funded by the British government. Pervez Hoodbhoy, a university lecturer and vocal critic of militancy, said students responded positively to Nawaz but that he did not expect to see ‘any movement building up behind him.’ ‘It is a great job he is doing and it's important that people hear him, he said. ‘But it wasn't a life-changing experience.’   http://www.dawn.com/wps/wcm/connect/dawn-content-library/dawn/news/pakistan/08-We-must-reclaim-Islam-ts-01   Copyright © 2009 - Dawn Media Group   From rajen786uppinangady at gmail.com Sun Jun 7 18:04:41 2009 From: rajen786uppinangady at gmail.com (Rajendra Bhat Uppinangadi) Date: Sun, 7 Jun 2009 18:04:41 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Fw: Re: i was stunned In-Reply-To: <341380d00906070206m2e43d179nfcbaf10381f7f435@mail.gmail.com> References: <289838.89194.qm@web94707.mail.in2.yahoo.com> <7271ec560906070101i18880411tc867de1d0f1f0c42@mail.gmail.com> <341380d00906070206m2e43d179nfcbaf10381f7f435@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <7271ec560906070534p1bb69f1eic74e539e861b27a9@mail.gmail.com> Dear All, This is exactly the advantage of democratic life, all can have their opinion, express it in most good or pervert bad ill will, still, all of us accept it, such dissent is possible only in democratic life.One can express freely about a Modi, about a Sonia or about a Lalu, but some resort to tell it thousands of times to reinforce that Modi is bad, again their way of being in limelight for their thoughts.! By the way Bhagalpur riots had different story to tell the miseries of humans, Ashish nandy is quiet on that front.? Regards, Rajen. On Sun, Jun 7, 2009 at 2:36 PM, anupam chakravartty wrote: > Dear Rajen, > > Modi is nothing but an advertising genius. while he can advertise about GM > plants in Halol and metro coach, heritage site in Pavagadh in Panchmahals, > Halol town doesnt have single drainage system in the town. if you ever go > there, you might find disgruntled BJP chairman of the nagarpalika, nitin > shah, who has been running from pillar to post in gandhinagar for drainage > system in the town. successive governments including congres and BJP were > not bothered about it, even Modi isnt. if you think he is able > administrator, you are living in some different world. > > secondly, modi recently stated that gujarat would lead the second green > revolution. if you ever find out about project sunshine of distributing > monsanto hybrid seeds to trbal farmers you will gasp. for first two years, > they were given free seeds for maize, this year monsanto with the consent > of > gujarat government is distributing the seeds for Rs 500 a pack for a farmer > who has to pawn his fields to buy the seeds. i would not be surprised if > another vidarbha like situation starts in gujarat. offcourse the yields can > only get better with continous usage of fertilizers and pesticides (most of > them have restricted usage in the nation) altering the quality of the soil > forever. > > able administration comes from humble admissions that yes this is not > working in my state and i need to fix it. it doesnt come loud, absolutely > juvenile statements. other chief ministers do not do so at least in my > knowledge but what mr modi has been doing is advertising campaign which has > buyers such as you. > > thanks anupam > > > On 6/7/09, Rakesh Iyer wrote: > > > > Dear Rajen jee > > > > You think I hate Modi. Interestingly, Modi hates non-vegetarians in his > own > > party (like he hated Kashiram Rana of his own party). So much for hatred! > > > > The fact is that the developmental model which Modi brags about, is > useless > > and sooner or later is going to lead Gujarat to utter disaster. The > poverty > > levels in Gujarat are still about 14.07%. Around 2006-07, Modi and his > > govt. > > were bragging for being declared the best govt as per a survey conducted > by > > the Rajiv Gandhi foundation. The reality is that the Modi govt. was rated > > best only for 'Economic Freedom'. > > > > As a proof, I give link of this article published in the Hindu: > > > > > http://www.thehindubusinessline.com/2005/06/27/stories/2005062700200900.htm > > > > Modi is exactly doing what George Bush was good at, propagandas. If you > say > > a lie 1000 times, people believe it's the truth. So, when Bush said again > > and again that Iraq had WMD's, Americans were convinced, or at least a > > section were. And the local media was used very easily. Similar is the > case > > in Gujarat, where the local Gujarati media plays in hands of Modi, and he > > convinced them and still does so that not only do Muslims deserve to be > > second class citizens (which is now implicit post Godhra), but also that > > his > > developmental model is the best. > > > > More importantly, what he has done is only going to prove disastrous in > the > > long run. Around the coastal regions, you have factories coming up > without > > proper laws or procedure being followed, and the result is that the salt > > which is obtained from sea water in these coastal regions is turning > black > > due to pollution from the factories. This is Modi's management! And I say > > Modi because he likes to show that he is the boss. > > > > Please don't get swept away by the Modi mania, otherwise India will > anyways > > hit a six by sweeping him over the ropes when the battle comes up in > 2014, > > and you will then feel bad about it. > > > > As for the other riots, all those involved in them,directly and > indirectly, > > belonging to whichever party and whichever community, or being of any > > religion, should be put behind bars and cases properly registered, > > investigated and taken to their logical conclusions in the quickest > > possible > > time. Those who don't do so, whether it be Modi in Gujarat or the > Congress > > in Delhi, are culprits, at least as I see it. > > > > Regards > > > > Rakesh > > > > > > > > > > On Sun, Jun 7, 2009 at 1:31 PM, Rajendra Bhat Uppinangadi < > > rajen786uppinangady at gmail.com> wrote: > > > > > Dear Rakesh, > > > > > > you seem to have the patent hate for the leaders like Modi who have > > > administered well, got elected again and again because of the good > > > governance, and conveniently forget that many other riots have shown > that > > > all humans have an animal side to them, like in Bhagalpur riots, it was > > > goons of other political parties had raped the muslim women and killed > > > innocent muslims in many other riots. To generalise that only in one > > state > > > gujarath the riots had muslim as victims shows tht insufficient study > has > > > taken place,please find enclosed a study of riots which was postd in > the > > > list for your ready reference. > > > > > > Regards, > > > > > > Rajen. > > > > > > On Sun, Jun 7, 2009 at 11:39 AM, Rakesh Iyer > >wrote: > > > > > >> Dear Vedavati jee (and all) > > >> > > >> First of all, you should stop being a spokesman for the entire Hindu > > >> community. Who are you to say that Muslims have survived in India > > because > > >> the majority of people here were Hindus? Don't Muslims survive in > > America > > >> too? Don't they live in England? Don't they live in other nations, > > >> including > > >> China? And how did you draw the conclusion that Muslims have survived > > >> because of a Hindu majority in India? > > >> > > >> Secondly, I would strongly urge you or request you to stop looking at > > >> issues > > >> from Jewish, Hindu or Muslim point of view. We already had a great > > >> president > > >> in George Bush in America to do that and the world has paid a price > for > > >> it. > > >> Similarly, we have our own Narendra Modi in India, who has been > > constantly > > >> trying to rupture the foundations of our Indian Republic as enshrined > in > > >> the > > >> Constitution. > > >> > > >> By speaking out against secularism, you are speaking against the very > > >> Constitution of India, and for your own consideration, can be treated > as > > a > > >> 'traitor' by the same yardstick of the Constitution. This is also for > > all > > >> those who constantly attack secularism on this forum. At least you are > > >> nationalistic, you should know this. > > >> > > >> Instead of venting out your anger, please give rational/logical > > arguments > > >> about why secularism is wrong. At least Ashish Nandy had a point when > he > > >> said that secularism has increased communal violence in India, for > > secular > > >> modern development has cut off people from their cultural roots, who > > then > > >> take refuge in Hindutva and this leads to problems. What do you have > as > > an > > >> argument against secularism? > > >> > > >> Please look at issues from a human angle. I accept that Kashmiri > Hindus > > >> have > > >> a right, and the fate of any self-determined/Indian > occupation/Pakistani > > >> occupation of Kashmir must take the views and ideas of all sections of > > the > > >> Kashmiri society into consideration. And as for the Kashmiri Pandits, > to > > a > > >> certain degree India has failed them. And it was not as if under the > > right > > >> wing govt in India, they were living a life of paradise either. > > >> > > >> Thirdly, on a personal level, I would urge you to at least start > > trusting > > >> the ability of human beings, and having faith in them, at least till > you > > >> have proof to the contrary. If you have suffered a tragedy at the > hands > > of > > >> one Muslim or a few Muslims, it doesn't mean the entire community must > > be > > >> criticized for the same. And anyways, are not there bad people in the > > >> Hindu > > >> community? > > >> > > >> Weren't those who raped Muslim women in the post-Godhra riots Hindus? > > >> Weren't those who indulged in violence during that time Hindus? Is > > >> violence > > >> acceptable? Do you think rape is the way to solve 'Hindu-Muslim > problem' > > >> which is in the minds first and on the roads later? Do you advocate > this > > >> as > > >> the way to avenge Godhra? > > >> > > >> And if they are Hindus, which I hope you would accept, should the > entire > > >> Hindu community be criticized? Should we denounce Hinduism? Are all > > Hindus > > >> then inhuman, as Osama Bin Laden would like the Muslims around the > world > > >> to > > >> believe? > > >> > > >> Please think about this, it's a humble request from me. So also for > the > > >> others. Here I am not saying you shouldn't be nationalistic (this I > > >> believe > > >> is very difficult to change), but at least for the sake of the nation > > >> which > > >> you put before yourself, at least understand the true nature of the > > >> problem > > >> instead of looking at it through skewed minds. > > >> > > >> Regards > > >> > > >> Rakesh > > >> _________________________________________ > > >> reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > > >> Critiques & Collaborations > > >> To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > > >> subscribe in the subject header. > > >> To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > > >> List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > -- > > > Rajen. > > > > > _________________________________________ > > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > > Critiques & Collaborations > > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > > subscribe in the subject header. > > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > subscribe in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> > -- Rajen. From rajen786uppinangady at gmail.com Sun Jun 7 18:08:37 2009 From: rajen786uppinangady at gmail.com (Rajendra Bhat Uppinangadi) Date: Sun, 7 Jun 2009 18:08:37 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Hindu article In-Reply-To: <006e01c9e751$89062ba0$0201a8c0@limo> References: <006e01c9e751$89062ba0$0201a8c0@limo> Message-ID: <7271ec560906070538l4a24f7d2u4aa109b1b02d6fd1@mail.gmail.com> Bipinjee, there is no point in telling these secular chappies about the facts, they are so convinced that nothing helps, and it is good that all shades of opinions are carried in the list, so that wise can have their own judgement of the democratic life in India. If in Pakistan, the media can be gagged, in China it can be shut down, atleast here we have place for all shades of black and white and shades of grey.? Regards, Rajen. On Sun, Jun 7, 2009 at 2:52 PM, bipin wrote: > Dear All, > > Who ever written this article HIndu is base less and far from truth. It is > totally false that Muslims are treated as second class citizen in Gujarat. > You ask any aam Muslim in Gujarat (don't ask chamcha's of Teesta and their > cottary) and you will have truth. > > Even I have many net Muslim friends from other states and on discussion, > they agreed that their relatives in Gujarat are far happy and feel safety in > Gujarat > > thanks > BIPIN > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > subscribe in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> -- Rajen. From c.anupam at gmail.com Sun Jun 7 18:17:53 2009 From: c.anupam at gmail.com (anupam chakravartty) Date: Sun, 7 Jun 2009 18:17:53 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Fw: Re: i was stunned In-Reply-To: <7271ec560906070534p1bb69f1eic74e539e861b27a9@mail.gmail.com> References: <289838.89194.qm@web94707.mail.in2.yahoo.com> <7271ec560906070101i18880411tc867de1d0f1f0c42@mail.gmail.com> <341380d00906070206m2e43d179nfcbaf10381f7f435@mail.gmail.com> <7271ec560906070534p1bb69f1eic74e539e861b27a9@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <341380d00906070547j49dbd943t248ae30045cd5e4f@mail.gmail.com> Dear Rajen, You can go on making modi the able administrator and i can demonise him. however, the place from where you stand see what;s happening in Gujarat is very different from where i see it. and it is not exactly a problem for you if we criticise sonia or manmohan but it is a problem for u if it modi. it would have not been a topic if you would not have considered modi as an able administrator. it is because of such advantages people like modi are ruling else he would have been in the jail. -anupam On 6/7/09, Rajendra Bhat Uppinangadi wrote: > > Dear All, > > This is exactly the advantage of democratic life, all can have their > opinion, express it in most good or pervert bad ill will, still, all of us > accept it, such dissent is possible only in democratic life.One can express > freely about a Modi, about a Sonia or about a Lalu, but some resort to tell > it thousands of times to reinforce that Modi is bad, again their way of > being in limelight for their thoughts.! > > By the way Bhagalpur riots had different story to tell the miseries of > humans, Ashish nandy is quiet on that front.? > > Regards, > > Rajen. > > On Sun, Jun 7, 2009 at 2:36 PM, anupam chakravartty wrote: > >> Dear Rajen, >> >> Modi is nothing but an advertising genius. while he can advertise about GM >> plants in Halol and metro coach, heritage site in Pavagadh in Panchmahals, >> Halol town doesnt have single drainage system in the town. if you ever go >> there, you might find disgruntled BJP chairman of the nagarpalika, nitin >> shah, who has been running from pillar to post in gandhinagar for drainage >> system in the town. successive governments including congres and BJP were >> not bothered about it, even Modi isnt. if you think he is able >> administrator, you are living in some different world. >> >> secondly, modi recently stated that gujarat would lead the second green >> revolution. if you ever find out about project sunshine of distributing >> monsanto hybrid seeds to trbal farmers you will gasp. for first two years, >> they were given free seeds for maize, this year monsanto with the consent >> of >> gujarat government is distributing the seeds for Rs 500 a pack for a >> farmer >> who has to pawn his fields to buy the seeds. i would not be surprised if >> another vidarbha like situation starts in gujarat. offcourse the yields >> can >> only get better with continous usage of fertilizers and pesticides (most >> of >> them have restricted usage in the nation) altering the quality of the soil >> forever. >> >> able administration comes from humble admissions that yes this is not >> working in my state and i need to fix it. it doesnt come loud, absolutely >> juvenile statements. other chief ministers do not do so at least in my >> knowledge but what mr modi has been doing is advertising campaign which >> has >> buyers such as you. >> >> thanks anupam >> >> >> On 6/7/09, Rakesh Iyer wrote: >> > >> > Dear Rajen jee >> > >> > You think I hate Modi. Interestingly, Modi hates non-vegetarians in his >> own >> > party (like he hated Kashiram Rana of his own party). So much for >> hatred! >> > >> > The fact is that the developmental model which Modi brags about, is >> useless >> > and sooner or later is going to lead Gujarat to utter disaster. The >> poverty >> > levels in Gujarat are still about 14.07%. Around 2006-07, Modi and his >> > govt. >> > were bragging for being declared the best govt as per a survey conducted >> by >> > the Rajiv Gandhi foundation. The reality is that the Modi govt. was >> rated >> > best only for 'Economic Freedom'. >> > >> > As a proof, I give link of this article published in the Hindu: >> > >> > >> http://www.thehindubusinessline.com/2005/06/27/stories/2005062700200900.htm >> > >> > Modi is exactly doing what George Bush was good at, propagandas. If you >> say >> > a lie 1000 times, people believe it's the truth. So, when Bush said >> again >> > and again that Iraq had WMD's, Americans were convinced, or at least a >> > section were. And the local media was used very easily. Similar is the >> case >> > in Gujarat, where the local Gujarati media plays in hands of Modi, and >> he >> > convinced them and still does so that not only do Muslims deserve to be >> > second class citizens (which is now implicit post Godhra), but also that >> > his >> > developmental model is the best. >> > >> > More importantly, what he has done is only going to prove disastrous in >> the >> > long run. Around the coastal regions, you have factories coming up >> without >> > proper laws or procedure being followed, and the result is that the salt >> > which is obtained from sea water in these coastal regions is turning >> black >> > due to pollution from the factories. This is Modi's management! And I >> say >> > Modi because he likes to show that he is the boss. >> > >> > Please don't get swept away by the Modi mania, otherwise India will >> anyways >> > hit a six by sweeping him over the ropes when the battle comes up in >> 2014, >> > and you will then feel bad about it. >> > >> > As for the other riots, all those involved in them,directly and >> indirectly, >> > belonging to whichever party and whichever community, or being of any >> > religion, should be put behind bars and cases properly registered, >> > investigated and taken to their logical conclusions in the quickest >> > possible >> > time. Those who don't do so, whether it be Modi in Gujarat or the >> Congress >> > in Delhi, are culprits, at least as I see it. >> > >> > Regards >> > >> > Rakesh >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > On Sun, Jun 7, 2009 at 1:31 PM, Rajendra Bhat Uppinangadi < >> > rajen786uppinangady at gmail.com> wrote: >> > >> > > Dear Rakesh, >> > > >> > > you seem to have the patent hate for the leaders like Modi who have >> > > administered well, got elected again and again because of the good >> > > governance, and conveniently forget that many other riots have shown >> that >> > > all humans have an animal side to them, like in Bhagalpur riots, it >> was >> > > goons of other political parties had raped the muslim women and killed >> > > innocent muslims in many other riots. To generalise that only in one >> > state >> > > gujarath the riots had muslim as victims shows tht insufficient study >> has >> > > taken place,please find enclosed a study of riots which was postd in >> the >> > > list for your ready reference. >> > > >> > > Regards, >> > > >> > > Rajen. >> > > >> > > On Sun, Jun 7, 2009 at 11:39 AM, Rakesh Iyer > > >wrote: >> > > >> > >> Dear Vedavati jee (and all) >> > >> >> > >> First of all, you should stop being a spokesman for the entire Hindu >> > >> community. Who are you to say that Muslims have survived in India >> > because >> > >> the majority of people here were Hindus? Don't Muslims survive in >> > America >> > >> too? Don't they live in England? Don't they live in other nations, >> > >> including >> > >> China? And how did you draw the conclusion that Muslims have survived >> > >> because of a Hindu majority in India? >> > >> >> > >> Secondly, I would strongly urge you or request you to stop looking at >> > >> issues >> > >> from Jewish, Hindu or Muslim point of view. We already had a great >> > >> president >> > >> in George Bush in America to do that and the world has paid a price >> for >> > >> it. >> > >> Similarly, we have our own Narendra Modi in India, who has been >> > constantly >> > >> trying to rupture the foundations of our Indian Republic as enshrined >> in >> > >> the >> > >> Constitution. >> > >> >> > >> By speaking out against secularism, you are speaking against the very >> > >> Constitution of India, and for your own consideration, can be treated >> as >> > a >> > >> 'traitor' by the same yardstick of the Constitution. This is also for >> > all >> > >> those who constantly attack secularism on this forum. At least you >> are >> > >> nationalistic, you should know this. >> > >> >> > >> Instead of venting out your anger, please give rational/logical >> > arguments >> > >> about why secularism is wrong. At least Ashish Nandy had a point when >> he >> > >> said that secularism has increased communal violence in India, for >> > secular >> > >> modern development has cut off people from their cultural roots, who >> > then >> > >> take refuge in Hindutva and this leads to problems. What do you have >> as >> > an >> > >> argument against secularism? >> > >> >> > >> Please look at issues from a human angle. I accept that Kashmiri >> Hindus >> > >> have >> > >> a right, and the fate of any self-determined/Indian >> occupation/Pakistani >> > >> occupation of Kashmir must take the views and ideas of all sections >> of >> > the >> > >> Kashmiri society into consideration. And as for the Kashmiri Pandits, >> to >> > a >> > >> certain degree India has failed them. And it was not as if under the >> > right >> > >> wing govt in India, they were living a life of paradise either. >> > >> >> > >> Thirdly, on a personal level, I would urge you to at least start >> > trusting >> > >> the ability of human beings, and having faith in them, at least till >> you >> > >> have proof to the contrary. If you have suffered a tragedy at the >> hands >> > of >> > >> one Muslim or a few Muslims, it doesn't mean the entire community >> must >> > be >> > >> criticized for the same. And anyways, are not there bad people in the >> > >> Hindu >> > >> community? >> > >> >> > >> Weren't those who raped Muslim women in the post-Godhra riots Hindus? >> > >> Weren't those who indulged in violence during that time Hindus? Is >> > >> violence >> > >> acceptable? Do you think rape is the way to solve 'Hindu-Muslim >> problem' >> > >> which is in the minds first and on the roads later? Do you advocate >> this >> > >> as >> > >> the way to avenge Godhra? >> > >> >> > >> And if they are Hindus, which I hope you would accept, should the >> entire >> > >> Hindu community be criticized? Should we denounce Hinduism? Are all >> > Hindus >> > >> then inhuman, as Osama Bin Laden would like the Muslims around the >> world >> > >> to >> > >> believe? >> > >> >> > >> Please think about this, it's a humble request from me. So also for >> the >> > >> others. Here I am not saying you shouldn't be nationalistic (this I >> > >> believe >> > >> is very difficult to change), but at least for the sake of the nation >> > >> which >> > >> you put before yourself, at least understand the true nature of the >> > >> problem >> > >> instead of looking at it through skewed minds. >> > >> >> > >> Regards >> > >> >> > >> Rakesh >> > >> _________________________________________ >> > >> reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. >> > >> Critiques & Collaborations >> > >> To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with >> > >> subscribe in the subject header. >> > >> To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list >> > >> List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > > -- >> > > Rajen. >> > > >> > _________________________________________ >> > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. >> > Critiques & Collaborations >> > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with >> > subscribe in the subject header. >> > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list >> > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> >> _________________________________________ >> reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. >> Critiques & Collaborations >> To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with >> subscribe in the subject header. >> To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list >> List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> >> > > > > -- > Rajen. > From indersalim at gmail.com Sun Jun 7 19:27:33 2009 From: indersalim at gmail.com (Inder Salim) Date: Sun, 7 Jun 2009 19:27:33 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] "Separatist leader quits on Facebook" (Sajjad Lone of Kashmir) In-Reply-To: <258725.11530.qm@web57203.mail.re3.yahoo.com> References: <258725.11530.qm@web57203.mail.re3.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <47e122a70906070657n408e385bt3f87c44f3315e4b5@mail.gmail.com> The couple has not been able to meet for a long time now. Lone’s wife and two sons have been denied visas by Indian authorities. This Visa thing can do may horrible things....... should never have been denied, should be granted immediately is On Sun, Jun 7, 2009 at 5:27 PM, Kshmendra Kaul wrote: > Peerzada Ashiq, Hindustan Times > > New Delhi, June 03, 2009 > > > "Separatist leader quits on Facebook" > > After witnessing divorces, marriages, link-ups and social campaigns, social networking website Facebook is providing space to fallen politicians too. > > > The site is being used to announce political sanyas (renunciation). > > And the first one to announce his is the lone separatist leader from the Kashmir Valley who decided to make a U-turn on his 22 years of separatism to participate in the recently concluded Lok Sabha elections. > > Sajjad Lone had sought to justify his decision by saying he would use the floor of Parliament to espouse “the Kashmir cause”. Separatists have always questioned the legitimacy of elections in Jammu and Kashmir and urged people to boycott them. But Lone, in a bold departure, chose to contest the polls. > > He became the first high-profile separatist to do so but was defeated from Baramullah, ranking third. > > Lone (42), son of slain separatist leader Abdul Ghani Lone, has now hinted at ending his political life in a reply to his wife Asma Lone’s Facebook message. > > Asma, daughter of Jammu and Kashmir Liberation Front (JKLF) chairman Amanullah Khan, lives in Pakistan. The couple has not been able to meet for a long time now. Lone’s wife and two sons have been denied visas by Indian authorities. > > “I wish everybody else understood the complexities of my situation as you (Asma) do. I will always feel passionately for Kashmiris. But I don't think I can espouse any cause any more,” writes Lone in reply to his wife’s emotional message. > > An emotional and dejected Lone adds: “I think it is the end of the road for me. I want to spend time with you and with Emad and Adnan.” Emad and Adnan are Lone’s sons. > > Since his defeat, Lone has not spoken to the media. He hasn't even met his close friends in Srinagar or commented on his poll debacle. > > http://www.hindustantimes.com/StoryPage/StoryPage.aspx?sectionName=HomePage&id=f24a4a7e-14fd-4aaa-bcbd-7c5483ff3188&Headline=Separatist+leader+quits+on+Facebook > > http://www.hindustantimes.com/StoryPage/Print.aspx?Id=f24a4a7e-14fd-4aaa-bcbd-7c5483ff3188 > > > > > > > > > > > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with subscribe in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: -- http://indersalim.livejournal.com From rakesh.rnbdj at gmail.com Sun Jun 7 20:19:44 2009 From: rakesh.rnbdj at gmail.com (Rakesh Iyer) Date: Sun, 7 Jun 2009 20:19:44 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Hindu article In-Reply-To: <7271ec560906070538l4a24f7d2u4aa109b1b02d6fd1@mail.gmail.com> References: <006e01c9e751$89062ba0$0201a8c0@limo> <7271ec560906070538l4a24f7d2u4aa109b1b02d6fd1@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: Dear Rajen ji (and all) I really sympathize with you and the rest of the brigade which is now doing what Modi is best at: using propaganda and portraying yourselves as victims. You very well know that it is very difficult to get a proper proof of how Modi is the best, and so you do what Modi does. You say that since everybody has a right to freedom of speech, people are maligning Modi (or Sonia or Manmohan) and hence trying to prove that you yourself are victims of that. Please, I would kindly request you to stop this way of thinking. Even you Bipin ji, I would request you to at least now see that efforts of Modi are only going to help the rich and the powerful, while the poor and the downtrodden, which includes the tribals as well, will further sink into the bottom. And moreover, the environmental concerns are going for a toss as far as the state of Gujarat is concerned, forget anything else. What I also request here, on this forum, is to have a debate on development itself, as to what it means for different people here. Many people keep talking that Modi is great on the developmental front. I wish to know what that development means, because as I see it, from my point of view, Modi's right-wing policies (which ironically also include letting the environment go for a toss), are going to lead to huge problems. Since some people prefer to call this 'development', it would be very kind of all you people (Rajen ji, Bipin ji, others too who despise seculars) to at least state what development is in your own words. It can really benefit us all, I believe. Regards Rakesh From rakesh.rnbdj at gmail.com Sun Jun 7 20:32:17 2009 From: rakesh.rnbdj at gmail.com (Rakesh Iyer) Date: Sun, 7 Jun 2009 20:32:17 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Hindu article In-Reply-To: References: <006e01c9e751$89062ba0$0201a8c0@limo> <7271ec560906070538l4a24f7d2u4aa109b1b02d6fd1@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: Dear all After reading all this, I am reminded of what I read once in 'Mother' (a novel by Maxim Gorky, one of the famous writers of the erstwhile Soviet Union during the pre and post Russian revolution periods). Gorky was a socialist, but didn't like communism, simply because Communism didn't believe in God, and Gorky had said in this novel, through one of his characters: 'Reason alone can't win human beings. Faith is too strong a thing to be overcome by reason.' The character had said this in the context of belief in God and the Church, which the Communists in Russia were trying to overthrow for its proximity to the 'oppressive' rulers. In our case, I see that the BJP has understood this fundamental point from the leftists (or socialists) and applied it successfully (at least upto a certain extent) through Hindutva. And this continues with Modi. Howsoever much proofs come out to point out that his administration is doing wrong things, some people on this forum (and a substantial number in Gujarat, if not all or the majority of people there) have so much faith in him that they refuse to see reason. My only answer to this would be what Tagore said: Where the mind is without fear and the head is held high; Where knowledge is free; Where the world has not been broken up into fragments by narrow domestic walls; Where words come out from the depth of truth; Where tireless striving stretches its arms towards perfection; Where the clear stream of reason has not lost its way into the dreary desert sand of dead habit; Where the mind is led forward by thee into ever-widening thought and action-- Into that heaven of freedom, my Father, let my country awake. Can at least now please, these people see reason? Regards Rakesh On 6/7/09, Rakesh Iyer wrote: > Dear Rajen ji (and all) > > I really sympathize with you and the rest of the brigade which is now > doing what Modi is best at: using propaganda and portraying yourselves > as victims. You very well know that it is very difficult to get a > proper proof of how Modi is the best, and so you do what Modi does. > You say that since everybody has a right to freedom of speech, people > are maligning Modi (or Sonia or Manmohan) and hence trying to prove > that you yourself are victims of that. > > Please, I would kindly request you to stop this way of thinking. Even > you Bipin ji, I would request you to at least now see that efforts of > Modi are only going to help the rich and the powerful, while the poor > and the downtrodden, which includes the tribals as well, will further > sink into the bottom. And moreover, the environmental concerns are > going for a toss as far as the state of Gujarat is concerned, forget > anything else. > > What I also request here, on this forum, is to have a debate on > development itself, as to what it means for different people here. > Many people keep talking that Modi is great on the developmental > front. I wish to know what that development means, because as I see > it, from my point of view, Modi's right-wing policies (which > ironically also include letting the environment go for a toss), are > going to lead to huge problems. Since some people prefer to call this > 'development', it would be very kind of all you people (Rajen ji, > Bipin ji, others too who despise seculars) to at least state what > development is in your own words. > > It can really benefit us all, I believe. > > Regards > > Rakesh > From pawan.durani at gmail.com Sun Jun 7 21:53:09 2009 From: pawan.durani at gmail.com (Pawan Durani) Date: Sun, 7 Jun 2009 21:53:09 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Who will deliver justice to Pyare Lal Tickoo? Message-ID: <6b79f1a70906070923w3e43b47dga3da2a473ce57da7@mail.gmail.com> Who will deliver justice to Pyare Lal Tickoo? KS Correspondent Shopian is an ancient town  and houses one of the  most sacred shrines of Kashmiri Pandits—the Kapalmochan Tirtha. Batapora, the quarter of Shopian, where 112 Pandit families lived till 1990, used to be the pride of the town. It also reminded world about Shopian's pluralistic character. Sadly, this became its undoing. How could entrepreneurs of Islamic fundamentalism reconcile to the existence of a pocket that stood as witness to the immense contribution of Kashmiri Pandits to the economic, social and political life of Shopian. It also lent prestige to the Shopian by reminding that peaceful co-existence between the members of the two communities was not an issue at stake here. Pt.Saroop Nath Saraf, a son of Batapora, was the first political worker of the region who took up the battle for nationalism, democracy and social justice. Leading Indian National Congress leaders e.g. Sh. Keskar stayed underground in his house during the days of 'Quit India Movement'. He was liberal to the core and braved prison terms in conviction of his political ideas. He was the moving spirit behind the starting of National School, Shopian in 1941. For well-known Muslim intellectuals—Shamim Ahmed Shamim, Mohammad Sayeed Malik, Prof. MA Shaida, Sh. Mohammad Yusuf Teng etc. it became the alma mater. It was Saroop Nath the visionary who launched the agitation for district status for Shopian, though majority community stood to benefit more from it. The entire Batapora quarter was actively involved in the agitation. Sh. Shamboo Nath Tickoo of the same locality spent 15 days in jail in the agitation for district, and was released on bail later. His son Pt. Pyare Lal Tickoo too was actively involved in secular affairs of Shopian. A cloth merchant by profession, for over two decades he was associated with the activities of Beopar mandal of Shopian and served as its Secretary from 1985-88. He actively associated himself with mainstream political parties of Kashmir and was a close friend of late Shamim Ahmed Shamima, MP and a well-known journalist. He was his election agent at Chrar  in 1971. What did Pyare Lal do to earn a fate that would shame any civilised society and a democratic government? First his 26-year old son was gunned down by terrorists. A month later his house was burnt down by them. Then a hostile government stepped in to complete the process of religious-cleansing. For forty years the State government never deemed it necessary to construct a building for housing Industrial Training Institute. Why did the government  decide to choose the burnt earth of Pyare Lal Tickoo's house to build the ITI building even without going through the formality of seeking his consent? Couldn't it find a place in the whole of Shopian town for it? This at a time when it was telling the world that it was committed to return of Kashmiri Pandits! Something worse was in store for Tickoos again. 6 kanals and 10 marlas orchard land, was fraudulently occupied. Even after the declaration of judgement in Tickoos' favour, the same government refuses to implement its own verdict. What else can it be called? "GENOCIDE"! Pyare Lal's tragedy and predicament has posed serious questions on the role of civil society, the media and the government in a democratic society. Batapora has been home to such outstanding Kashmiri Pandits —Dr RL Lahori, Dr UK Lahori, Jia Lal, Nand Lal, Brij Lal (of Lahori family), Lamboodar Nath Kitchu, Jagar Nath Sathu, Sh. Raghav Ram and ML Kandhari, Jia Lal Koul, Radha Krishan Kaul, Dr. MK Punjabi, Jia Lal Raina, Sham Sunder Pardesi, Omkar Nath Koul, Dr HN Bhat, Sh BL Saraf, Amar Nath and Niranjan Nath Kokroo, Prem Nath Koul etc. Sh. Janki Nath Koul, who too lived here, was Zonal secretary of National Conference and Vice-president of Fruit Growers' Association. Exodus: As terrorist violence began in October, 1989 Pandits of Batapora curtailed their movement. With spate of selective killings of members of Pandit community in January-February, 1990 exodus began from Batapora locality as well. Each family took its own decision. By April, 1990 sixty of the 112 Pandit families had left for Jammu as the government had little control to bestow protection to the minority community. The members of the majority community did little to reassure the minority community. Another 30 families left in May. Only 10-12 Pandit families decided to stay back. They included the families of Shamboo Nath Tickoo, Avtar Krishan Koul, Pradiman Krishan Koul, Kanya Lal Raina, Dr HN Bhat, Sh. Brij Lal and Nand Lal Lahori, Jia Lal Lahori and Sh. Brij Nath Kitchlu. Killing of Rajinder Tickoo: On June 16, 1990 Rajinder Tickoo son of Pyare Lal Tickoo, who was just 26, was shot dead by terrorists in the town. Rajinder had done MA Education from Kashmir University, Diploma Business Administration from University of Jammu. He had just completed one year Accountancy course from Finance Accountancy School, Srinagar. After six months training he had to undergo practical training for six months at Shopian Hospital. This too he had completed. On the fateful day he had gone to collect the certificate of attendance from the Hospital authorities. After coming out from the hospital at around 4 PM he went to the shop of his friend at Bus Stand. The terrorists who were following him fired a volley of shots at him. 4 bullets hit him—one in the chest, two in abdomen and another one in thigh. Rajinder died on spot. No member of the majority community came to pick him up. Traffic stopped, people ran helter-skelter. Those who seek to enjoy saying on electronic media that Jagmohan provided trucks to Pandits to leave are only rubbing salt to the wounds of the minority Pandit community. Meanwhile, one of the members of the majority community came to inform Pyare Lal at his shop in the bazar that his son has been shot at. Pyare Lal saw his son lying dead in a pool of blood in the shop. There was a bullet with marking of 'Made in China'. The objective of killing Rajinder, a scion of a prominent Batapora Pandit family, was to serve a warning to the remaining 10-12 Pandit families which were still holding out. The dead body was taken to the Hospital where Dr. Sofi conducted the post-mortem. In those terrible times Pandits had even lost the right of mourning their departed ones. At the time of post-mortem only Rajinder's father and grandfather were present. Pyare Lal recalls, "I carried the body of my son in my hands. Scene of Raja Harishchandra (Harichandrazaen raat)'s similar predicament was constantly appearing before my eyes. Happenings create stories". Pyare Lal's mother exhibited rare courage. She mobilised Pandit neighbours to prepare warm water for giving bath to her beloved grandson. There was no purohit available. All the 12 Pandit families attended the cremation at cremation ground at Batapora. Everything was over by 5 PM. No member of the majority community came to Tickoo's house or attended the cremation. There were more than fifty families living here. This was second tragedy for Pyare Lal Tickoo. In January, 1989 his wife, who had just turned 40, had died of Mitral stenosis. The Muslim neighbours had grieved for her for four months. What had happened in just 18 months that 'Kashmiriyat' evaporated like thin air? A fascist, fundamentalist movement had taken over. All the Pandit families of Batapora who had not joined the exodus, spent the night at Tickoos' house, both to express solidarity with the bereaved family and to ponder over what to do next. It was at 8:30 PM that custodian of Law and Order, Deputy Commissioner, who belonged to the majority community turned up, exactly 4 and ½ hours after the killing. He asked Pandits if they needed any security. Pyare Lal Tickoo replied, "Jo Hona Tha Woh Ho Chuka Hai Ab Kya Karne Aye Ho. Yeh Aapki Marzi Hai Security Rakho Ya Nah Rakho". (whatever had to happen has happened. What was the need for you to come now? It is your wish whether to keep security or not). No security was provided during the night. Those who say Pandits were provided trucks to leave should ponder over who is politicking—they or the Pandits who faced religious-cleansing and an insensitive administration. Next morning four members of the majority community came to express their grief to Tickoos. One of them was their servant who had been with them for over twenty years, two were friends of Pyare Lal Tickoo and one was a close acquaintance of Pt. Shamboo Nath Tickoo. Times had changed. One has to be a member of the minority community and live the times of physical cleansing to understand what genocide means. It is easy to deliver sermons or write fashionable treatises on displacement of a cleansed community. The Batapora Pandit families decided to leave for Jammu. A more responsible administration would have thought it to be part of its duty to provide transport to Kashmiri Pandits after this tragedy. This was not to be. Shamboo Nath Tickoo braved all dangers and went in a matador to Pulwama to arrange trucks. On the 3rd day after the killing Tickoo family collected the ashes of their beloved Rajinder. Part of the ashes were immersed in Raembiar river which has been part of Shopian Pandits' history and which also used to collect the ashes of ancestors of Rajinder for centuries. The other part was taken by Rajinder's father to Hardwar to be immersed in Ganges. The Pandit families left for Jammu in two trucks. Tickoos had two cows which were being looked after by two servants. The cows used to give five kg milk in morning and 6-7 kg in evening. Tickoos requested their neighbour to take care of cows. The neighbour refused saying this would invite reprisal from terrorists. The cows and a calf were let free. Tickoos expressed sorrow that they could not take care of cows now. For two days Tickoo family stayed in Gita Bhavan and then went to stay at Sarore, 22 kms way from Jammu. After a year the family was provided a room at Camp Muthi I. The small 10 ft x 10 ft room had to accommodate five persons—old parents of Pyare Lal, his two sons and Pyare Lal himself. There was no dearth of any kind for Tickoos at Shopian. Now they were proverbial abandoned refugees. As camp life took toll of health of the family the Tickoos left the camp to seek healthier accommodation outside. Pyare Lal's mother unable to face rigours of exile too died. More shock was in store for Tickoos soon after they left for Jammu. On 21st July 1990 first their house and the houses of other Pandit families were looted and the goods taken away in trucks. Then these houses were put to arson. The other houses of Batapora were burnt on the day when Nunda Reshi's Mausoleum was burnt by Mast Gul at Chrar, Budgam. >From time to time with uncertainty looming large many families had to go for distress sale  of their 'poorans'. Pyare Lal Tickoo and his neighbours—Kouls and Rainas whose houses were burnt on 21st July had already decided that come what may they would not sell their houses and the land. Pyare Lal Tickoo had also an orchard, 5 kanals and 14 marlas in size, in the vicinity of his house. It used to bear delicious apples. These Pandit families together owned 9 kanals and four marlas, on which stood 7 houses and an orchard. When asked why he did not sell his pooran and orchard land, Pyare Lal Tickoo shot back "why should I sell the pooran? I want to return to my home". State encroachment of Residential Land: A Govt. which swears by "Kashmiriat" and loses no opportunity to proclaim to the outside world that "it was committed to bring back Displaced Kashmiri Pandits back to their homes  with 'honour and dignity' had other ideas". If Pandit families decide not to sell their poorans there was every possibility that these families would return to rebuild their houses whenever situation permitted. The State government had also declared that it would provide financial aid for repair/rebuilding the damaged houses. Soon after Mufti Mohammad Syed took over as the Chief Minister of PDP-Congress coalition government, Pandit families came to know that the District Administration had mooted a proposal to thwart the return of Kashmiri Pandits to Batapora. Without seeking consent of the Pandit families, either directly or through a notice, it wanted to acquire their residential land through the Land Acquisition Act. The families learnt that the Administration had mooted the proposal for the construction of ITI Complex upon the said premises. In response to it Sh. Shamboo Nath Tickoo, father of Pyare Lal moved an application to SDM Shopian for removal of encroachment of his land. SDM in his letter no: 140-41/SDM/S/2003 Dated: 2/8/2003 asked the Tehsildar Shopian to furnish details within two days. When nothing was heard for a year, the Pandit families sought intervention of the Chief Minister, the Collector Land Acquisition (SJM) Shopian, the Chief Secretary, the Financial Commissioner (Revenue), DC Pulwama. The families also prayed to the State Governor, NHRC, New Delhi and SHRC, J&K. In their prayer to the Chief Minister, dated 5/8/2004 they asked, "If this is the situation it clearly violates the policy of the government and also violates the fundamental rights of the applicants. If at all, the District Administration and the Government is interested in construction of the ITI Complex, there are hundreds of patches of land within the town as well. They added the "action of the District Administration also speaks volumes, for malafide and extraneous considerations it has mooted the proposal for the acquisition of the proceedings". The Chief Minister Mufti Mohammad Syed, who has been going around talking about "Self-Rule, Self-Governance", did not feel it his duty to respond to the aggrieved Pandits. The Pandit families in their petition to the Collector reminded that Hon'ble High Court of J&K in its various judgements had clearly stated that "the Collector has to show urgency for acquisition of any particular patch of land". They added that, "Prima-facie there appears no public purpose for the aforesaid acquisition and if at all the government is interested in construction of the ITI Complex, that can be constructed at any area of the town without violating the fundamental rights of the applicants". Earlier on 24.7.2004 in his petition to the Financial Commissioner (Revenue), Pt. Shamboo Nath Tickoo asked, "We wonder to know that prior to this the sites which were taken for acquisition for ITI why they are dropped and our plots taken for acquisition, we being migrants and when State government has taken steps for our rehabilitation at our own native places....... That kindly take necessary steps not to acquire our land of migrants, as there are so many plots of Kachari/state land free and open for such purposes". Pyare Lal Tickoo, who retains strong will to force authorities to give him back what is his due said, "without seeking our consent through notification or personal notices to seven owners bulldozers were used to level our poorans and remove the debris of burnt houses. Why did the government feel the need to construct ITI now and not during the past 40 years? Couldn't it get  space for ITI building in the whole of Shopian town?" The Pandit families have come to know that early this year the administration has illegally raised a boundary wall around the land it has forcibly encroached. Even after the case was reported in a section of media the State government remained unmoved. There have been complaints elsewhere too by Displaced Kashmiri Hindus. During the past four years of coalition rule the land owned by Pandits is being acquired ostensibly "for public purposes" under a deliberate plan to thwart their chances of return by "finishing their immovable property".  In Ward No: 1 of Batapora the residential land of Pandit families—Lahoris, Sathus, Kitchlus and Panditas, which together measures 35-40 kanals was taken over for building bus stand. Sadly, GOI which depends for feedback on State authorities, did not try to intervene. The Shop: Pyare Lal Tickoo's cup of woes did not end here. In 1990 soon after he left his cloth shop in the heart of town was looted. Cloth worth 6-7 lakh rupees was taken away. The shop had sale of Rs 10 to 12 thousand per day. Subsequently, the shop was taken over by the government for widening of the road. Fraudulent grab of orchard: Pyare Lal's family owned an orchard, measuring 6 kanals and 10 marlas under Khasra No: 242 at Kanipora, Balpora (Shopian). The 58 walnut trees in the orchard produced 2 to 2.5 lakh walnuts annually. The present value of this crop is Rs 4 to 5 lakhs per year. This orchard was purchased by Pyare Lal's father Sh. Shamboo Nath in 1960 with proper registration and was under self-cultivation. They have also preserved the receipts of contractors to whom they sold the walnuts. In 1996 the entire revenue record of the orchard was tempered by Tehsil and Revenue Officers and fraudulently transferred to Gani Bhat, son of Rehman Bhat and Musmati Sara, daughter of Rehman Bhat, R/o Kanipora. The Revenue officials fraudulently converted 'abi bagh into Abi Soem". Through a friend Pyare Lal came to know about the fraudulent occupation of his orchard. Pt. Shamboo Nath Tickoo filed an appeal before the Financial Commissioner. Sh SD Singh the FC Revenue with Powers of Commissioner Agrarian Reforms in his landmark judgement dated 26th June 2002 after hearing the case for a year declared that "Mutation orders are assailed, amongst others, on the ground that the property in question was an orchard long before Kharif 1971, during Kharif 1971 and continuously thereafter and thus exempt from the provisions of the Agrarian Reforms Act; that the order has been passed at the back of the appellant without his knowledge; that Rehman and Akbar in whose favour the mutations have been attested were dead at the time of entering the mutation". Sh. SD Singh observed that, "I agree with the counsel for the appellant that the attestation of the Mutations has resulted in perpetration of a fraud on the appellant and that this is in pursuance of a conspiracy hatched with the connivance of the Revenue officials. ..The circumstances under which such an illegality has been perpetrated warrant a thorough probe to fix the responsibility for appropriate action under law". The Financial Commissioner appointed Additional DC Pulwama, Sh AM Khanday as inquiry officer to hold a detailed inquiry in the matter and submit a report within a period of two months. What happened to the inquiry Tickoos do not know, though 4½ years have elapsed since then. With Kashmiri Pandits' leadership maintaining visibility on community's genocide, the nation is bound to ask 'who will deliver justice Pyare Lal Tickoo'. Till then he should suffer. Source: Kashmir Sentinel From taraprakash at gmail.com Sun Jun 7 21:56:19 2009 From: taraprakash at gmail.com (taraprakash) Date: Sun, 7 Jun 2009 12:26:19 -0400 Subject: [Reader-list] Has Congress become perfect? References: <006e01c9e751$89062ba0$0201a8c0@limo><7271ec560906070538l4a24f7d2u4aa109b1b02d6fd1@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <7BD44C9369F24AFC9897120D0EA78A55@tara> Hi all. This list is really getting more interesting day by day. If one were to understand India's political system only through this list, one would believe that India has finally achieved the state of political utopia, now that the Congress is in power. The only villain, this list seems mostly to suggest, in marring otherwise peaceful or development oriented environment of India is BJP or CPIM. It is interesting that even those who appear to be political cynics, as far as the political system in India is concerned, fail to find any fault with the Congress. Whenever there is some talk of bungling by the government, such as in the case of "encounter" in Batla House, the specific agencies are implicated, whereas if such things are blamed on the respective ruling parties, if such things happen in the states ruled by BJP and CPIM. I wonder why. Has the congress finally become perfect? Or this list is somehow funded by Delhi Government which does not want to hear anything against Congress as a political party? While going through a lot of mails I missed last month, I read Shuddha's mail which was about massacre of pro-democracy students by Chinese government. He did not forget to add few sentences about his feelings for and experiences with CPI(M). He has rightfully condemned this party in several of his mails earlier as well. But when it comes to Congress, I don't remember any mail from him off late that would beware us from being too optimistic from BJP's defeat in the recent general elections. Not that he did not write any mail on this list after these elections. One could interpret him, in one of his recent mails, as if gibing at a mailer who heralded Advani as the prime minister based on some saphologist's prediction. The buts and howevers, which are frequently used by Shuddha to demonstrate that he is not siding with any specific party or agenda were missing in that mail. I am singling out Shuddha's mails, not because my intention is to malign him, but because I read all his mails with great interest. Shuddha is the voice of the Indian intellectual for me. Unlike the common folks like me, his mails are not spontaneous outburst of powerful feelings. His mails are well-constructed and they are backed up by verifiable facts. So, are we to read anti-congress e-mails on this list only from few hindutva-motivated listers? If that is the case, won't we be weakening democracy in India? Regards ----- Original Message ----- From: "Rakesh Iyer" To: "Rajendra Bhat Uppinangadi" Cc: "sarai-list" Sent: Sunday, June 07, 2009 11:02 AM Subject: Re: [Reader-list] Hindu article > Dear all > > After reading all this, I am reminded of what I read once in 'Mother' > (a novel by Maxim Gorky, one of the famous writers of the erstwhile > Soviet Union during the pre and post Russian revolution periods). > Gorky was a socialist, but didn't like communism, simply because > Communism didn't believe in God, and Gorky had said in this novel, > through one of his characters: > > 'Reason alone can't win human beings. Faith is too strong a thing to > be overcome by reason.' > > The character had said this in the context of belief in God and the > Church, which the Communists in Russia were trying to overthrow for > its proximity to the 'oppressive' rulers. > > In our case, I see that the BJP has understood this fundamental point > from the leftists (or socialists) and applied it successfully (at > least upto a certain extent) through Hindutva. And this continues with > Modi. Howsoever much proofs come out to point out that his > administration is doing wrong things, some people on this forum (and a > substantial number in Gujarat, if not all or the majority of people > there) have so much faith in him that they refuse to see reason. > > My only answer to this would be what Tagore said: > > Where the mind is without fear and the head is held high; > Where knowledge is free; > Where the world has not been broken up into fragments by narrow > domestic walls; > Where words come out from the depth of truth; > Where tireless striving stretches its arms towards perfection; > Where the clear stream of reason has not lost its way into the > dreary desert sand of dead habit; > Where the mind is led forward by thee into ever-widening thought > and action-- > Into that heaven of freedom, my Father, let my country awake. > > Can at least now please, these people see reason? > > Regards > > Rakesh > > On 6/7/09, Rakesh Iyer wrote: >> Dear Rajen ji (and all) >> >> I really sympathize with you and the rest of the brigade which is now >> doing what Modi is best at: using propaganda and portraying yourselves >> as victims. You very well know that it is very difficult to get a >> proper proof of how Modi is the best, and so you do what Modi does. >> You say that since everybody has a right to freedom of speech, people >> are maligning Modi (or Sonia or Manmohan) and hence trying to prove >> that you yourself are victims of that. >> >> Please, I would kindly request you to stop this way of thinking. Even >> you Bipin ji, I would request you to at least now see that efforts of >> Modi are only going to help the rich and the powerful, while the poor >> and the downtrodden, which includes the tribals as well, will further >> sink into the bottom. And moreover, the environmental concerns are >> going for a toss as far as the state of Gujarat is concerned, forget >> anything else. >> >> What I also request here, on this forum, is to have a debate on >> development itself, as to what it means for different people here. >> Many people keep talking that Modi is great on the developmental >> front. I wish to know what that development means, because as I see >> it, from my point of view, Modi's right-wing policies (which >> ironically also include letting the environment go for a toss), are >> going to lead to huge problems. Since some people prefer to call this >> 'development', it would be very kind of all you people (Rajen ji, >> Bipin ji, others too who despise seculars) to at least state what >> development is in your own words. >> >> It can really benefit us all, I believe. >> >> Regards >> >> Rakesh >> > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > subscribe in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> From indersalim at gmail.com Sun Jun 7 23:10:18 2009 From: indersalim at gmail.com (Inder Salim) Date: Sun, 7 Jun 2009 23:10:18 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] edited man In-Reply-To: <47e122a70906071032r63f963c6lfb54585c524c75e3@mail.gmail.com> References: <47e122a70906071032r63f963c6lfb54585c524c75e3@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <47e122a70906071040o78845711t505d5604f64e7137@mail.gmail.com> Dear Jeebesh I found an image while browsing my little archive fie, and immediately thought of your  EDITED MAN asking for responses from all. The file is full of other images. Behind this 5 x 7 inch non-digital black & white photograph the following detail is written vertically with pencil: DATED 10.02.1990 - JUST OUTSIDE KASHMIR The image is uploaded at  http://4.bp.blogspot.com/_pllHvmNB5GI/Siv2cd3V73I/AAAAAAAAAMw/-RoU7a85Jw8/s1600-h/is+at+exit+in+1990.jpg hope this would make as an accompaniment to the work that  'Raqs Media Collective' is planning to produce autumn this year. with love Inder Salim June 7th, 2009 Delhi On Thu, May 28, 2009 at 4:46 PM, Jeebesh wrote: > We found the seated figure of a man in somebody's storage space. We > found him sitting and with what sees to us to be like a startled look > on his face. We have been wondering what would it mean to work towards > him acquire a life, a philosophy, tastes, passions, a repertoire of > sentiments, a list of favourite books, songs, movies and secret > work, or a story, or a poem, or a song, or a quote, or an anecdote, or > a travel dairy notation, or a bibliography, or a joke, or another > image, or a reference to other works, or all of the above or something > else. > > You could even make a list of provisions that you think he might need, > books and texts you might want him to read, music that you might want > him to listen to, or things that you might want him to take along as > he makes his way in the world. You can also choose to respond in a > completely tangential and oblique way, if you so wish, bypassing our > sense of who he is, and communicating directly with the figure and > what he represents to you. > > We would like to gather your responses into a book that we want to > make as an accompaniment to the work that we will produce in the > autumn this year. > > Please send us your response by 31st July. > > Warm greetings > > Raqs Media Collective > June, 2009 > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with subscribe in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> -- http://indersalim.livejournal.com -- http://indersalim.livejournal.com From rakesh.rnbdj at gmail.com Mon Jun 8 11:18:26 2009 From: rakesh.rnbdj at gmail.com (Rakesh Iyer) Date: Mon, 8 Jun 2009 11:18:26 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Who will deliver justice to Pyare Lal Tickoo? In-Reply-To: <6b79f1a70906070923w3e43b47dga3da2a473ce57da7@mail.gmail.com> References: <6b79f1a70906070923w3e43b47dga3da2a473ce57da7@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: Dear Pawan ji I am very sad after reading this story, and so would be anyone who has some sense of humanity and sympathy in their nature. It is utterly disgusting that the state, which criticizes others and takes action against others for encroaching on its' land, has indulged in the same action and acted as a 'goonda'. This is very shameful and the govt. should apologize for this, so also for the atrocities inflicted on Kashmiri citizens, Hindus in particular, for the violence they had to face which ensured their forced exodus in 1990. At the same time, the role of the then Governor, Mr. Jagmohan should be thoroughly enquired into, and if he is found to be responsible, he should also be punished and sent behind bars. Equally speaking, I believe that we can't be the prisoners of the past. The case of justice is certainly something the Pandits deserve, and proper efforts should be made to get them resettled in their own land. At the same time, I would be failing if I were to accept that atrocities were only committed on the Pandits. There are Kashmiri Muslims as well who have suffered badly thanks to the AFSPA and the army occupation. It's time this is corrected. The ultimate chance of a Kashmir solution can only come up when New Delhi opens up discussion channels with all sections of the Kashmiri society, be it Muslim, Hindu, Buddhist or anyone else. At the same time, the people who belong to this homeland, it should be restored back to them. Communal elements in this society, belonging to any section, be it the Hurriyat, the BJP, the PDP, the NC or the Congress or any other party or even a non-party organization should be marginalized, and if they indulge in violence of any kind, should be properly punished. Also sections of the society should be allowed to talk to each other. I don't say that Kashmiri Muslims or Pandits are all good; within a human being itself there is a good or bad. What is important is to have constructive atmosphere for having dialogue between people at ground level, between different sections of the society and the central govt, as well as between people on both sides of Kashmir. The last is a dream-kind of step, but the first two are possible. I feel the Kashmiri Pandits and the Kashmiri Muslims deserve an apology, from the Govt. of India, from the then governor Jagmohan and from the JKLF and other organizations which indulged in violence. More importantly, this should not mean cases are taken back, for that is a call of self which I think one should leave to the individuals. What is more important is that justice is delivered, and Pandits are able to return back to their own land, as well as the removal of the AFSPA and normal life back in the Kashmiri heartland. And for that, the first requirement is to accept that Kashmir is a dispute. Will the govt. at least now accept that, or fool itself into the great power it has in its own hands by stating that 'Kashmir is an integral part of India' ? We have not managed to win the people there in the last 20 years or so, and all this election business and all is not going to help. And when I say we have not won the people, it means both the Kashmiri Muslims and the Kashmiri Pandits. We have failed them both. And if we still want to continue on that path, I would end by this statement of George Santayana: 'Those who forget history are condemned to repeat it' Regards Rakesh From c.anupam at gmail.com Mon Jun 8 12:13:58 2009 From: c.anupam at gmail.com (anupam chakravartty) Date: Mon, 8 Jun 2009 12:13:58 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Hindu divided family by Sudheendra Kulkarni Message-ID: <341380d00906072343k7aa0a5f2m6e3e2875fc48979f@mail.gmail.com> *Hindu Divided Family* *In a deeply introspective essay, LK Advani’s key aide says that if the BJP wants to win, it needs to rethink its approach to Muslims, Hindutva, the poor, the RSS, and itself* *SUDHEENDRA KULKARNI* * Political advisor, BJP* FIRST THINGS first. Before I reflect on why the Bharatiya Janata Party lost the Lok Sabha elections and how it can revive itself, it must be said that the outcome of the polls is a resounding victory for India’s democracy. True, there are many glaring deficiencies in our democracy. But the people of India have shown once again to the world that it is they who decide the fate of governments, parties and leaders in this country, and also that their verdict is accepted by one and all in the polity. India is not like China, where its communist rulers fear that free elections with multiple choices before the people would destabilise their nation. Nor are we like Thailand, where warring parties recently laid siege to the airport and parliament building. We are not like many other countries in Asia and the world where the sanctity of elections is contested, where leaders are jailed or banished, and where the military replaces the independent judiciary and the election commission. Undoubtedly, the renewed recognition that India, inspite of its bewildering diversities and problems, is unshakable in its commitment to democracy has raised its prestige globally. Even as a person belonging to the defeated party, I feel proud of this triumph of India’s democracy. Next. Congratulations to the Prime Minister, Sonia Gandhi and their party. They outsmarted the BJP in the electoral battle, which I believed along with many others outside my party, was ours to lose. The BJP snatched defeat out of the jaws of victory. The Congress did the opposite. A third prefatory point. In commenting on the causes that led to the BJP’s defeat, I cannot but say upfront that I too carry my share of responsibility. As one who was closely associated with the party’s election campaign, specifically the campaign of LK Advani, our prime ministerial candidate, I too committed mistakes. To be meaningful, productive and curative, collective introspection in the party must begin with each one individually. Collective responsibility is a laudable principle, but it can often become a mask for persons in key positions at the central and state levels to evade their individual responsibility. This has often happened in the BJP. The party must, therefore, conduct a rigorous and objective analysis of all the factors that led to its defeat, and this should be done with the participation of the largest possible number of party workers and supporters at various levels. Beneath the pervasive disappointment, the mood in the party is indeed introspective. After all, this is the second consecutive defeat for the BJP in its bid for power at the Centre. In 2004, it had lost after heading the government of the National Democratic Alliance for six years. The verdict of the people, hence, clearly meant that they wanted change. In 2009, after five years of largely dismal performance by the government of the Congress-led United Progressive Alliance, the BJP could not convince the voters that they should vote in favour of change. Rather, the truth is that the people wanted change but were not convinced that the BJP or the BJP-led NDA assured the kind of change they wanted. *REASONS FOR THE BJP DEFEAT IN 2009* The BJP’s failure to convince the people on this score is rooted in a combination of structural, political, ideological, organizational and campaign-related reasons. The party’s longstanding structural weakness is that although it has succeeded in bi-polarising India’s politics at the Centre, its geographical presence in the country is much narrower than that of the Congress. It won only one seat in four big states that together account for 143 out of the 543 seats in the Lok Sabha — West Bengal (42), Andhra Pradesh (42), Tamil Nadu (39) and Kerala (20). The Congress’ tally: 60 seats. Unless the BJP overcomes this structural weakness by increasing its own political and electoral strength in these big states, it can never emerge as an equal and durable alternative to the Congress nationally. The second reason was the failure of the BJP’s political strategy — in particular, its alliance strategy. A principal reason for the party’s success in forming the government, under the leadership of Atal Behari Vajpayee, in 1998 and 1999 was its ability to forge alliances, especially in three of the four afore-mentioned big states (Trinamool Congress in West Bengal; Telugu Desam Party in Andhra Pradesh; and first AIADMK and later DMK in Tamil Nadu). Its alliance with the Biju Janata Dal in Orissa (21 Lok Sabha seats) also proved to be extremely useful. In the aftermath of the 2004 defeat, many of our allies left the NDA. The main reason for their leaving was not that the NDA had been defeated, but their perception that the communal violence in Gujarat in 2002 was an important cause of the defeat and, hence, their conclusion that continuation of the alliance with the BJP would cost them Muslim votes. Between 2004 and 2009, the BJP did nothing to address this factor. As a result, it failed to win back a single ally in West Bengal, Andhra Pradesh and Tamil Nadu, or win a single ally in Kerala. Moreover, almost on the eve of the 2009 elections, the BJP actually lost an important ally in Orissa due to inept alliance management. It is true that, in the early months of 2009, the BJP forged three new alliances — with Asom Gana Parishad in Assam, Ajit Singh’s Rashtriya Lok Dal in UP, and Omprakash Chautala’s Indian National Lok Dal in Haryana. But these could not make up for the damage caused by the loss of our earlier alliances. In the absence of a cohesive and numerically strong alliance, the BJP could not assure the voters that it was in a position to form a stable government at the Centre. Hence, by default, the voters not only chose the Congress over the BJP but also gave it increased parliamentary strength to quench their own thirst for stability. *CONFUSION ABOUT HINDUTVA* Why did the BJP invite this weakness upon itself? The reason has to do with the widespread ideological confusion within the party over what the BJP’s advocacy of Hindutva actually means. The confusion has persisted for a long time, but it intensified after the defeat of the BJP/NDA in 2004. There was a strong view within a section of the party — and a much stronger and almost unanimous view within the larger Sangh Parivar — that the Vajpayee’s government was defeated because the BJP had “abandoned Hindutva”. The argument went like this: “In its bid to form the NDA government, the BJP kept aside its core ideological commitments on the construction of the Ram Temple in Ayodhya, the abrogation of Article 370 and the Uniform Civil Code. The Hindu voters, who had enabled the BJP to emerge as a strong force in Indian politics in the late 1980s and 1990s, felt let down by this. In 2004, the BJP again kept the Hindutva issues in cold storage and made development its main plank. This further disillusioned the Hindu voters. Their indifference led to the party’s defeat in 2004.” In the aftermath of the setback in 2009, many angry voices have again blamed the party leadership, Advani in particular, for the same reason — “You lost because you abandoned Hindutva.” It’s a deeply flawed view. It errs in believing that the BJP’s Hindu base is synonymous with the totality of Hindu voters. The fact is, Hindus never vote as a block for any particular party. There is only a small section of Hindus who have voted as Hindus for what they perceived as a pro-Hindu party — the Jana Sangh in the past and the BJP in later years. Their number increased dramatically in the late 1980s and early 1990s due to the Ayodhya movement, which, for about ten years, caught the imagination of a large section of the Hindu society. However, the BJP’s rising strength in the late 1990s was also on account of another important factor, which had nothing “Hindu” about it: the people’s desire to give the BJP also an opportunity to govern the country. This desire was further whetted by Vajpayee’s pan-Indian popularity, as was evident from the appeal of the slogan *“Sabko dekha baari baari, Ab ki baari Atal Behari”.* If the BJP’s electoral success in 1998 and 1999 was due to factors beyond what are narrowly seen as “Hindutva” issues, subsequent events have proved beyond a shadow of doubt that the party’s Hindu base is small even within Hindu society, not to speak of the electorate as a whole. This small Hindu base on its own can never bring the party to power at the Centre. Between 2004 and 2009, some people were toying with the idea of constructing a ‘Hindu Agenda’, and creating a large enough ‘Hindu Vote-Bank’ around it. Even the idea of establishing a new Hindu political organization, as a counter to the BJP, was being talked about. In the aftermath of the BJP’s defeat in the 2009 parliamentary elections, these ideas may get a new lease of life. They are doomed to fail. At a broader level, it is high time the BJP seriously debated and decided what it means by ‘Hindutva’, and also what formulations of ‘Hindutva’ are not acceptable to it. True, the BJP must remain an ideology-driven party. But without clarity on what the BJP’s ideology is, the party cannot win the support of more Hindus, let alone the support of Muslims and Christians. Understood as ‘Cultural Nationalism’ in an inclusive, integrative and noncommunal sense, Hindutva indeed defines the organizing and sustaining principle of the Indian Nation. However, just as the noble principle of secularism can be perverted and practiced for politically expedient reasons — the selfstyled ‘secular’ parties have indeed done it to isolate the BJP — Hindutva is also vulnerable to narrow interpretations and bigoted practice. My own understanding of Pandit Deendayal Upadhyaya’s ‘Integral Humanism’, which the BJP accepts as its guiding philosophy, convinces me that it completely rejects narrow, exclusivist and communal interpretations of India’s national identity. *FAILURE TO OVERCOME THE PARTY’S LIMITED SOCIAL BASE* Post-2004, many leaders in the BJP, Advani in particular, had come to the correct conclusion that the party faced twin tasks: (a) to nurse its core ideological/social constituency (which had felt let down for various reasons, including the valid reason of a lack of sufficient dialogue and coordination between the BJP leaders in the Vajpayee government and the leaders and activists of the Sangh Parivar at various levels); and (b) to expand the BJP’s appeal and support base beyond its core constituency, both on its own and by forging alliances. Sadly, between 2004 and 2009, the BJP leadership attended only to the first task and did very little to attend to the second. For example, even within the Hindu society, large sections (especially Dalits) have remained outside the influence of the BJP. No effort was made to endear the party to them. As far as taking the BJP closer to the minorities (Muslims and Christians) is concerned, both confusion and indifference within the party are of Himalayan magnitude. The mentality of a large section of the party is so dogmatic that any idea of promoting the welfare and development of Indian Muslims, or of addressing their legitimate concerns, is quickly brushed aside as “appeasement”. In five long years after 2004, the BJP did not come up with a single worthwhile initiative which Muslims could welcome. Take the example of the Sachar Committee report. No doubt, the Congress party, guided by its votebank politics, tried to appease the Muslim community with some dangerous and thoroughly condemnable pronouncements — reservation for Muslims on religious grounds and the Prime Minister’s shocking statement that Muslims should have the first claim on the country’s budgetary resources. But was everything about the Sachar Committee report or its recommendations objectionable? After all, by highlighting widespread socio-economic backwardness within the Muslim community, the report laid bare the successive Congress governments’ own failures and betrayals towards a community that has been its most loyal supporter. Sadly, the BJP rejected the Sachar report completely and unreservedly. The party could have responded to its findings and recommendations in a more nuanced manner by presenting some alternative proposals for addressing poverty and backwardness among Muslims. It didn’t do so because, as I have mentioned earlier, the party’s collective mind is suffering from a prolonged confusion about how to deal with issues relating to Indian Muslims. Those leaders who want to think and act innovatively know that they are prone to be quickly accused of following a “Muslim- appeasement” policy. The BJP’s Minority Morcha is a non-operational body, whose voice is heard neither within the party nor within the Muslim community. The entrenched thinking within the BJP is that “Muslims never vote for us and therefore there is no need to think or do anything for them.” The party gave tickets to only three Muslim candidates in the recent Lok Sabha elections. True, the party’s manifesto had some good points about minorities, but these could hardly change the image of the BJP as a party that does not care for Muslims. Purely in electoral terms, all this contributed to the BJP’s grievous self-disablement. Consider the following. The party has a near-zero presence in 143 Lok Sabha seats in four big states. On top of that, it practically writes off 15% of the electorate who are Muslims. In recent years, even Christians have turned against the BJP. Even within the Hindu society, the BJP’s support base is less than 25% nationally. Thus, both geographically and socially, the party’s electoral base is not strong enough to challenge the Congress. On top of all these, we had the Varun Gandhi episode in the middle of the election campaign, which, along with other factors, clearly led to the consolidation of Muslim votes in favour of the Congress in UP. *NEGATIVISM IN THE BJP’S CAMPAIGN* In hindsight, it is obvious that the BJP failed to utilize its five years in the opposition to construct and present a positive agenda that could catch the imagination of the people beyond its core support base. We harped too much on the UPA government’s failures, without convincing the people how we would perform better. The party rightly adopted ‘Good Governance, Development and Security’ as its plank for Elections 2009. However, none of these three ideals was intellectually fleshed out in terms of specific policies and programmatic initiatives, nor made the basis of a sustained mass campaign. The people, who were hardly enthused by the performance of the UPA government, were keen on knowing if the BJP had superior ideas on tackling the problems of price rise, unemployment, economic downturn, plight of farmers, etc. The middle class wanted to know if the BJP had better plans to address the shortage of housing, water and power, the problem of transportation, and the rising costs of education and healthcare. India’s young men and women were waiting to see if the BJP was capable of making them dream big and if it could connect to their own rising aspirations. Advani did speak of the *Ladli Laxami *Yojana for the education of the girl child, his infrastructure vision and his vision for ‘IT as an instrument for transforming *Bharat’.* But all this did not cohere into a sharply focused superior agenda of governance and development. On the issue of security, which was a BJP’s strong point, we fumbled on many occasions. Even the Congress party’s completely baseless criticism on the Kandahar episode put the BJP on the backfoot. On the whole, we did not dictate the agenda for Elections 2009. As a result, the media as well as a large number of uncommitted voters concluded that this was an ‘issue-less’ election. *LEADERSHIP IN DISARRAY* My last point in the analysis of the 2009 elections concerns the state of the BJP organization. Never in the history of the Jana Sangh or the BJP was the party enfeebled by so much disarray at the top. The disorder at the Centre and also in several states (examples: Rajasthan, UP and Delhi) demoralised the disunited party workers down the line, with disastrous results. Although Advani was projected as the party’s prime ministerial candidate, this took place after he had been dis-empowered after the Mohammad Ali Jinnah episode. The cropping up of Narendra Modi’s name in the middle of the campaign did not help at all. To the people of India, the contrast was obvious: there is unified command in the Congress party, but not in the BJP. Look at the irony. Sonia Gandhi and her son Rahul made an essentially weak Prime Minister like Dr Manmohan Singh look strong by backing him solidly. In contrast, the BJP and the Sangh Parivar made a strong leader like Advani, whose contribution to the growth of the party is enormous, look weak, helpless and not fully in command. Saddened by this, many dedicated party workers bemoaned, “Atalji succeeded in becoming Prime Minister because he had Advaniji working for him faithfully and determinedly. Unfortunately this time, there was no Advaniji working similarly for Advaniji.” Of course, it is also true that Advani himself failed to assert his leadership at crucial points before and during the campaign. *ROAD AHEAD* Where does the BJP go from here? The answer depends on how honest and widespread the introspection about the past and the future is within the BJP, and how thorough the corrective action in the near future will be. For this to happen, the party should encourage free debate, based on constructive criticism and self-criticism. But let it be understood both by the BJP’s supporters and adversaries the outcome of Elections 2009 is by no means a catastrophe for the party. True, our strength in the Lok Sabha came down from 182 in 1999 to 138 in 2004, and has further come down to 116 in 2009. But in defeat we should not lose a sense of balance and perspective. After all, in 1998, the Congress was reduced to a tally of only 110 in the Lok Sabha. Yet, six years later it bounced back. So can the BJP. Today the BJP is not only the main opposition party in the 15th Lok Sabha but, in some ways, the sole opposition party because the Left parties have been completely marginalized. What this means is that, whereas there is need for honest introspection, there is no need for despair at all. This is not to belittle the fact that difficult days are ahead for the BJP, at least in the short term. The Congress seems to be on the revival path in UP and Bihar. The support for the BJP is declining in its two strongholds — Madhya Pradesh and Gujarat. In Rajasthan and Delhi, the BJP has again scored self-goals. In Karnataka, in spite of the good showing in the recent Lok Sabha elections, the BJP and its government face many problems that demand immediate attention. As far as leadership is concerned, the party needs to address the challenges in the post-Advani era, while recognizing that it needs the guiding hand of *karmayogi* Advani — who embodies the best of the BJP — for as long as he can be active in public life. His message of ‘Good Governance, Development and Security’ has relevance for the BJP in the future too. However, the party has to infuse positive and inspiring content into this message, and the content has to become more visible in states where the BJP is in power. One of the most important learnings from the NDA government, as well as from the governments of Narendra Modi, Shivraj Singh Chauhan, Raman Singh and Nitish Kumar, is that inclusive development should become as important an element of the ideology for a Nation First party like the BJP as, for example, Hindutva. Here is a sensitive question that the BJP cannot shirk. Issues relating to the right relationship between the BJP and the RSS also need to be candidly debated for mutual good. The RSS is indeed a nationalist organization, and there are many valid reasons why India needs a non-communal pro- Hindu organization committed to the ideal of Hindu unity and renaissance. However, just as the BJP needs introspection, the RSS needs it no less. Its leaders must ask themselves, and answer the question honestly and earnestly, “Why is the acceptability of the RSS and the Vishwa Hindu Parishad limited in Hindu society itself?” No less important is the challenge of re-orienting the party’s thinking and action on issues relating to the suffering of the poor and the downtrodden, and the severe regional and social imbalances in India’s development. The BJP can indeed bounce back. But it can do so only if it first renews and empowers itself comprehensively — in its ideology, its geographical-social spread, its own political strength, its mass activity, its alliance-building, its cadre-based organizational network, and its leadership. *Kulkarni was a key aide to former Prime Minister Atal Behari Vajpayee and** a member of the BJP’s Election Strategy Group, 2009* From kj.impulse at gmail.com Fri Jun 5 19:27:58 2009 From: kj.impulse at gmail.com (Kavita Joshi) Date: Fri, 5 Jun 2009 19:27:58 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] [DFA NewsLetter] INVITATION: Public Access Digital Media Archive, Tue / Jun 9 / 4 pm Message-ID: <821019d70906050657s2d2e9077h1d8eaa7331e65072@mail.gmail.com> ---------- Forwarded message ---------- From: James Beveridge Media Resource Centre Date: Thu, Jun 4, 2009 at 12:02 PM Subject: An introduction to pad.ma, the Public Access Digital Media Archive, on Tuesday, June 9 at 4 pm To: mrc.jamia at gmail.com The James Beveridge Media Resource Centre invites you to an introduction to pad.ma (short for Public Access Digital Media Archive) by Shaina Anand & Ashok Sukumkaran on Tuesday, June 9, 2009 at 4 pm in the JB MRC Room, 2nd Floor, AJK MCRC, Jamia Millia Islamia, New Delhi 110025. The Public Access Digital Media Archive is an online archive of densely text-annotated video material, primarily footage and not finished films. It is a collaborative project between five organizations: oil21.org from Berlin, the Alternative Law Forum from Bangalore, and three organisations from Mumbai: Majlis, Point of View and Chitrakarkhana/CAMP. Launched as a website in February 2009, the entire archive is searchable and viewable online, and is free to download for non-commercial purposes. In the introduction, Shaina and Ashok will show and discuss the many potential ways in which pad.ma can be used. (The JB MRC is supported by a grant from Sir Ratan Tata Trust) --~--~---------~--~----~------------~-------~--~----~ Please DO NOT REPLY to the sender. To contact the MODERATOR: delhifilmarchive [at] gmail.com To UNSUBSCRIBE: send an email to delhifilmarchive-unsubscribe at googlegroups.com More OPTIONS are on the web: http://groups.google.com/group/delhifilmarchive Our WEBSITE: www.delhifilmarchive.org -~----------~----~----~----~------~----~------~--~--- From aliens at dataone.in Mon Jun 8 13:18:51 2009 From: aliens at dataone.in (bipin) Date: Mon, 08 Jun 2009 13:18:51 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Hindu article References: <006e01c9e751$89062ba0$0201a8c0@limo> <1f9180970906070400r2e988177uc885c0c642a43bef@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <00f001c9e80d$f11c4370$0201a8c0@limo> Dear Venugopalan, What happened in 2002 is very painful and full sympathy with those who died. Even in my earlier post, I have mentioned about this sad incidence. Refer the court findings and they scrolled Teesta in few occasions in Zahira case. I also of the opinion that those who are culprit must be punished and even Modi's involvement proved than also. Why I doubt Teesta working, since she never show her will to fight for the rights of Hindu, Sikh in Sikh riots, Kashmir Pundits in Kashmir, Bhagalpur victim, even she has not turned up in Nandigram, Singur. So how can one trust her neutrality? This is solid proof that she is working with guidance of their source of funds. What the Hindu article tells is general for Gujarat's Muslims treated as II class citizen is wrong. They are taking basis of about a lac (yet this is also doubtful figure) yet to return to their home (but why? no body has stopped them to return), the whole Gujarat Muslim community treated as II class citizen. Don't you think this is ridiculous? For a few part of community, you can not put generalize prediction for the community. The incidence happened before 7 years and few thousand don't return to their home and those whose homes has burned/destroyed, govt. has offered for rehabilitation way back but stopped by the wasted interest forces who wants to keep alive this issue forever! People of Gujarat (including Muslim community) has way back forgot this and started their routine work in very co-operative and friendly environment. Even leading Muslim figure/leader of Gujarat like Professor Bandukwala and many others has confirmed this way back and continue today telling in many open discussion forum. Mr. Venugopalan, I invite to come to Gujarat, I personally welcome you and take you to even Godhra where this incidence happened and see yourself whether you find any fear? Even I invite you with any of your Muslim friend to roam any part of Gujarat and verify yourself that anywhere Muslim is not at all treated as II class citizens. All the community stays in very harmony without any fear and grudges. Now what is going on is malicious propaganda against Gujarat and Gujarati community, nothing else. Whether you believe or not but this is hard truth. thanks Bipin ----- Original Message ----- From: Venugopalan K M To: sarai-list Sent: Sunday, June 07, 2009 4:30 PM Subject: Re: [Reader-list] Hindu article Dear Bipin, I'm afraid you are abusing he commonsense of everybody here. Why don't you dispute what is already given there on the basis of merit and substance? What do you mean by Chamchas of Teesta? And is what is so bad about Tessta and their "cottary"? About the Muslim citizens of Gujarat, again you arrogate to yourself the privilege of paassing a judgement! Of whom at least two thousand people were killed and over a lakh are reportedly yet to return to their homes since the organized crimes of post-Godhra 2002, if they are not being treated as second class citizens, are they being treated as non-citizens? Will you please check the truth for yourself rather than advising others to meet your Muslim friends in other states or to meet the 'aam Muslims' in Gujaratin your imagination? Or rather, do you mean that they are graciously being allowed by Modi to stay free of further fears of being targeted for killing and raping by Hindus? That case, you are wrong sir; instead, it is apparently because the killing hordes themselves had realized that Modi is not God to ensure them impunity and because they come to realize that Modi himself is under the shadow of trial under the IPC and the Cr PC for his culpability in what transpired after Godhra. >"they agree that their relatives are far happy and feel safety in Gujarat" How cool! How strange of a people constituting about 1/5 th of the entire population confiding the secret to you being allowed to feel safe in their own lands and homes! Best, Venu. On Sun, Jun 7, 2009 at 2:52 PM, bipin wrote: Dear All, Who ever written this article HIndu is base less and far from truth. It is totally false that Muslims are treated as second class citizen in Gujarat. You ask any aam Muslim in Gujarat (don't ask chamcha's of Teesta and their cottary) and you will have truth. Even I have many net Muslim friends from other states and on discussion, they agreed that their relatives in Gujarat are far happy and feel safety in Gujarat thanks BIPIN _________________________________________ reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. Critiques & Collaborations To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with subscribe in the subject header. To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> -- http://venukm.blogspot.com/ From rajen786uppinangady at gmail.com Mon Jun 8 13:23:56 2009 From: rajen786uppinangady at gmail.com (Rajendra Bhat Uppinangadi) Date: Mon, 8 Jun 2009 13:23:56 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Fw: Re: i was stunned In-Reply-To: <341380d00906070547j49dbd943t248ae30045cd5e4f@mail.gmail.com> References: <289838.89194.qm@web94707.mail.in2.yahoo.com> <7271ec560906070101i18880411tc867de1d0f1f0c42@mail.gmail.com> <341380d00906070206m2e43d179nfcbaf10381f7f435@mail.gmail.com> <7271ec560906070534p1bb69f1eic74e539e861b27a9@mail.gmail.com> <341380d00906070547j49dbd943t248ae30045cd5e4f@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <7271ec560906080053i31ee3eb5hd2f529ce9345dfcb@mail.gmail.com> Anupam ji, it is interesting to note that we have another set of demons for reader list addition in Pinarayi Vijayan, with biggest scam in Kerala state for looting of the state funds to the extent of 374 crores, funds released for not working.! Communists whatever said and done, had no blemished individuals as to corruption and loot of public funds, but after the advent of Nandigram chemical hub for Salim group of Indonesia by the CM of west bengal, later the issue of SMC lavelin, canadian company getting paid for work not done, has brought the other side of the communist leaders in to stark focus. In the list, when posted of the news of Pinarayi Vijayan, there was no response from anyone as if talking against the big boss of politburo is great offence by the sympathisers, CM of Kerala who is known for his simplicity and clean image is first to rebel against politburo on this issue, but was asked to resign if he felt so strongly about the issue, what have you got to say, other than politically right words of say, law will take its own course.? As to bofors and its aftermath, the pity is the gen- next has not read wonderfully written investigative journalism of Ms. Chithra Subramaniam in the newspaper the Hindu, then, and even now seem to be under illusion that uncle Q is clean, or not sufficient evience against uncle Q.Fact is the judicial process was subverted systematically, delayed the trial process and thus the entire exercise of getting at the guilty became a farce of laws taking their own course as directed by those in power.! With new truths emerging about the judiciary and the ethics of the judges and morals of these lawyers, nothing much is expected to happen in the rule of laws unless the citizens are aware as to how the judiciary is being subverted with corrupt practices of honouring the corrupt after their retirement as heads of office of profits, such as human rights commissions, inquiry commisssions where the guilty are exempted from punishment even as judges of supreme court cry hoarse about the human rights commisssion rexommends scot free life for murder convict as he is political strongman.?Please read the papers of the day for details. On Sun, Jun 7, 2009 at 6:17 PM, anupam chakravartty wrote: > Dear Rajen, > > You can go on making modi the able administrator and i can demonise him. > however, the place from where you stand see what;s happening in Gujarat is > very different from where i see it. and it is not exactly a problem for you > if we criticise sonia or manmohan but it is a problem for u if it modi. it > would have not been a topic if you would not have considered modi as an > able > administrator. > > it is because of such advantages people like modi are ruling else he would > have been in the jail. > > -anupam > > > > On 6/7/09, Rajendra Bhat Uppinangadi > wrote: > > > > Dear All, > > > > This is exactly the advantage of democratic life, all can have their > > opinion, express it in most good or pervert bad ill will, still, all of > us > > accept it, such dissent is possible only in democratic life.One can > express > > freely about a Modi, about a Sonia or about a Lalu, but some resort to > tell > > it thousands of times to reinforce that Modi is bad, again their way of > > being in limelight for their thoughts.! > > > > By the way Bhagalpur riots had different story to tell the miseries of > > humans, Ashish nandy is quiet on that front.? > > > > Regards, > > > > Rajen. > > > > On Sun, Jun 7, 2009 at 2:36 PM, anupam chakravartty >wrote: > > > >> Dear Rajen, > >> > >> Modi is nothing but an advertising genius. while he can advertise about > GM > >> plants in Halol and metro coach, heritage site in Pavagadh in > Panchmahals, > >> Halol town doesnt have single drainage system in the town. if you ever > go > >> there, you might find disgruntled BJP chairman of the nagarpalika, nitin > >> shah, who has been running from pillar to post in gandhinagar for > drainage > >> system in the town. successive governments including congres and BJP > were > >> not bothered about it, even Modi isnt. if you think he is able > >> administrator, you are living in some different world. > >> > >> secondly, modi recently stated that gujarat would lead the second green > >> revolution. if you ever find out about project sunshine of distributing > >> monsanto hybrid seeds to trbal farmers you will gasp. for first two > years, > >> they were given free seeds for maize, this year monsanto with the > consent > >> of > >> gujarat government is distributing the seeds for Rs 500 a pack for a > >> farmer > >> who has to pawn his fields to buy the seeds. i would not be surprised if > >> another vidarbha like situation starts in gujarat. offcourse the yields > >> can > >> only get better with continous usage of fertilizers and pesticides (most > >> of > >> them have restricted usage in the nation) altering the quality of the > soil > >> forever. > >> > >> able administration comes from humble admissions that yes this is not > >> working in my state and i need to fix it. it doesnt come loud, > absolutely > >> juvenile statements. other chief ministers do not do so at least in my > >> knowledge but what mr modi has been doing is advertising campaign which > >> has > >> buyers such as you. > >> > >> thanks anupam > >> > >> > >> On 6/7/09, Rakesh Iyer wrote: > >> > > >> > Dear Rajen jee > >> > > >> > You think I hate Modi. Interestingly, Modi hates non-vegetarians in > his > >> own > >> > party (like he hated Kashiram Rana of his own party). So much for > >> hatred! > >> > > >> > The fact is that the developmental model which Modi brags about, is > >> useless > >> > and sooner or later is going to lead Gujarat to utter disaster. The > >> poverty > >> > levels in Gujarat are still about 14.07%. Around 2006-07, Modi and his > >> > govt. > >> > were bragging for being declared the best govt as per a survey > conducted > >> by > >> > the Rajiv Gandhi foundation. The reality is that the Modi govt. was > >> rated > >> > best only for 'Economic Freedom'. > >> > > >> > As a proof, I give link of this article published in the Hindu: > >> > > >> > > >> > http://www.thehindubusinessline.com/2005/06/27/stories/2005062700200900.htm > >> > > >> > Modi is exactly doing what George Bush was good at, propagandas. If > you > >> say > >> > a lie 1000 times, people believe it's the truth. So, when Bush said > >> again > >> > and again that Iraq had WMD's, Americans were convinced, or at least a > >> > section were. And the local media was used very easily. Similar is the > >> case > >> > in Gujarat, where the local Gujarati media plays in hands of Modi, and > >> he > >> > convinced them and still does so that not only do Muslims deserve to > be > >> > second class citizens (which is now implicit post Godhra), but also > that > >> > his > >> > developmental model is the best. > >> > > >> > More importantly, what he has done is only going to prove disastrous > in > >> the > >> > long run. Around the coastal regions, you have factories coming up > >> without > >> > proper laws or procedure being followed, and the result is that the > salt > >> > which is obtained from sea water in these coastal regions is turning > >> black > >> > due to pollution from the factories. This is Modi's management! And I > >> say > >> > Modi because he likes to show that he is the boss. > >> > > >> > Please don't get swept away by the Modi mania, otherwise India will > >> anyways > >> > hit a six by sweeping him over the ropes when the battle comes up in > >> 2014, > >> > and you will then feel bad about it. > >> > > >> > As for the other riots, all those involved in them,directly and > >> indirectly, > >> > belonging to whichever party and whichever community, or being of any > >> > religion, should be put behind bars and cases properly registered, > >> > investigated and taken to their logical conclusions in the quickest > >> > possible > >> > time. Those who don't do so, whether it be Modi in Gujarat or the > >> Congress > >> > in Delhi, are culprits, at least as I see it. > >> > > >> > Regards > >> > > >> > Rakesh > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > On Sun, Jun 7, 2009 at 1:31 PM, Rajendra Bhat Uppinangadi < > >> > rajen786uppinangady at gmail.com> wrote: > >> > > >> > > Dear Rakesh, > >> > > > >> > > you seem to have the patent hate for the leaders like Modi who > have > >> > > administered well, got elected again and again because of the good > >> > > governance, and conveniently forget that many other riots have shown > >> that > >> > > all humans have an animal side to them, like in Bhagalpur riots, it > >> was > >> > > goons of other political parties had raped the muslim women and > killed > >> > > innocent muslims in many other riots. To generalise that only in one > >> > state > >> > > gujarath the riots had muslim as victims shows tht insufficient > study > >> has > >> > > taken place,please find enclosed a study of riots which was postd in > >> the > >> > > list for your ready reference. > >> > > > >> > > Regards, > >> > > > >> > > Rajen. > >> > > > >> > > On Sun, Jun 7, 2009 at 11:39 AM, Rakesh Iyer < > rakesh.rnbdj at gmail.com > >> > >wrote: > >> > > > >> > >> Dear Vedavati jee (and all) > >> > >> > >> > >> First of all, you should stop being a spokesman for the entire > Hindu > >> > >> community. Who are you to say that Muslims have survived in India > >> > because > >> > >> the majority of people here were Hindus? Don't Muslims survive in > >> > America > >> > >> too? Don't they live in England? Don't they live in other nations, > >> > >> including > >> > >> China? And how did you draw the conclusion that Muslims have > survived > >> > >> because of a Hindu majority in India? > >> > >> > >> > >> Secondly, I would strongly urge you or request you to stop looking > at > >> > >> issues > >> > >> from Jewish, Hindu or Muslim point of view. We already had a great > >> > >> president > >> > >> in George Bush in America to do that and the world has paid a price > >> for > >> > >> it. > >> > >> Similarly, we have our own Narendra Modi in India, who has been > >> > constantly > >> > >> trying to rupture the foundations of our Indian Republic as > enshrined > >> in > >> > >> the > >> > >> Constitution. > >> > >> > >> > >> By speaking out against secularism, you are speaking against the > very > >> > >> Constitution of India, and for your own consideration, can be > treated > >> as > >> > a > >> > >> 'traitor' by the same yardstick of the Constitution. This is also > for > >> > all > >> > >> those who constantly attack secularism on this forum. At least you > >> are > >> > >> nationalistic, you should know this. > >> > >> > >> > >> Instead of venting out your anger, please give rational/logical > >> > arguments > >> > >> about why secularism is wrong. At least Ashish Nandy had a point > when > >> he > >> > >> said that secularism has increased communal violence in India, for > >> > secular > >> > >> modern development has cut off people from their cultural roots, > who > >> > then > >> > >> take refuge in Hindutva and this leads to problems. What do you > have > >> as > >> > an > >> > >> argument against secularism? > >> > >> > >> > >> Please look at issues from a human angle. I accept that Kashmiri > >> Hindus > >> > >> have > >> > >> a right, and the fate of any self-determined/Indian > >> occupation/Pakistani > >> > >> occupation of Kashmir must take the views and ideas of all sections > >> of > >> > the > >> > >> Kashmiri society into consideration. And as for the Kashmiri > Pandits, > >> to > >> > a > >> > >> certain degree India has failed them. And it was not as if under > the > >> > right > >> > >> wing govt in India, they were living a life of paradise either. > >> > >> > >> > >> Thirdly, on a personal level, I would urge you to at least start > >> > trusting > >> > >> the ability of human beings, and having faith in them, at least > till > >> you > >> > >> have proof to the contrary. If you have suffered a tragedy at the > >> hands > >> > of > >> > >> one Muslim or a few Muslims, it doesn't mean the entire community > >> must > >> > be > >> > >> criticized for the same. And anyways, are not there bad people in > the > >> > >> Hindu > >> > >> community? > >> > >> > >> > >> Weren't those who raped Muslim women in the post-Godhra riots > Hindus? > >> > >> Weren't those who indulged in violence during that time Hindus? Is > >> > >> violence > >> > >> acceptable? Do you think rape is the way to solve 'Hindu-Muslim > >> problem' > >> > >> which is in the minds first and on the roads later? Do you advocate > >> this > >> > >> as > >> > >> the way to avenge Godhra? > >> > >> > >> > >> And if they are Hindus, which I hope you would accept, should the > >> entire > >> > >> Hindu community be criticized? Should we denounce Hinduism? Are all > >> > Hindus > >> > >> then inhuman, as Osama Bin Laden would like the Muslims around the > >> world > >> > >> to > >> > >> believe? > >> > >> > >> > >> Please think about this, it's a humble request from me. So also for > >> the > >> > >> others. Here I am not saying you shouldn't be nationalistic (this I > >> > >> believe > >> > >> is very difficult to change), but at least for the sake of the > nation > >> > >> which > >> > >> you put before yourself, at least understand the true nature of the > >> > >> problem > >> > >> instead of looking at it through skewed minds. > >> > >> > >> > >> Regards > >> > >> > >> > >> Rakesh > >> > >> _________________________________________ > >> > >> reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > >> > >> Critiques & Collaborations > >> > >> To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > >> > >> subscribe in the subject header. > >> > >> To unsubscribe: > https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > >> > >> List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> > >> > > > >> > > > >> > > > >> > > > >> > > -- > >> > > Rajen. > >> > > > >> > _________________________________________ > >> > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > >> > Critiques & Collaborations > >> > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > >> > subscribe in the subject header. > >> > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > >> > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> > >> _________________________________________ > >> reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > >> Critiques & Collaborations > >> To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > >> subscribe in the subject header. > >> To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > >> List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> > >> > > > > > > > > -- > > Rajen. > > > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > subscribe in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> > -- Rajen. From rakesh.rnbdj at gmail.com Mon Jun 8 13:39:59 2009 From: rakesh.rnbdj at gmail.com (Rakesh Iyer) Date: Mon, 8 Jun 2009 13:39:59 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Fw: Re: i was stunned In-Reply-To: <7271ec560906080053i31ee3eb5hd2f529ce9345dfcb@mail.gmail.com> References: <289838.89194.qm@web94707.mail.in2.yahoo.com> <7271ec560906070101i18880411tc867de1d0f1f0c42@mail.gmail.com> <341380d00906070206m2e43d179nfcbaf10381f7f435@mail.gmail.com> <7271ec560906070534p1bb69f1eic74e539e861b27a9@mail.gmail.com> <341380d00906070547j49dbd943t248ae30045cd5e4f@mail.gmail.com> <7271ec560906080053i31ee3eb5hd2f529ce9345dfcb@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: Dear Rajen ji Since you commented that people don't comment on corruption cases by say the Leftists (you may later include the Congress also) but always comment on the wrongdoings of the BJP (or the Rightists), let me state two things personally from my side: 1) Corruption done by whichever individual, irrespective of his/her religious, community-based, casteist, ideological or any other affiliations is wrong, and should be condemned, and those who indulge in corruption should be subjected to punishment as per law. On this account, I welcome the Governor's decision to allow the CBI to prosecute Vijayan. If Vijayan is guilty as is being made out in numerous newspaper reports, let him go to jail for that. After all, a minister is said to be responsible and act as a role model in the society. 2) The second thing is that it's not necessary that if people don't comment on a wrong, it becomes a right. That seems to be yet another form of the Modi-Bush propaganda: 'If you are not with me, you are against me', which is: 'If you don't condemn some wrong, you accept that it is right'. That is not the case. Just because me or anybody else doesn't post a comment on a case, doesn't mean I or others would necessarily accept that an offence committed by someone is acceptable to me or to others. Please correct your perception here. Hence, don't make presumptions based on perceptions, but base them on proof based concept. I know you will say that I do the same about RSS, but Golwalkar's writings, the way justice has not been provided even uptil now in the post-2002 violence, and the utter disregard and no sense of remorse either in the RSS or the BJP for that violence, simply prove that. Infact, I got to know one more interesting thing: the word 'Hindutva' was coined by Savarkar, who incidentally did not believe in idolatry or idol-worship; he was against it. This was an important concept of his policy of Hindutva. Now the RSS has completely forgotten this by asking for a Ram Mandir to be built to house an idol of Lord Ram, so also its sister organizations like the VHP and the Bajrang Dal. Therefore, Rajen ji, since you are in a way associated with the RSS, I would like to know which is the correct version of Hindutva, and why? Regards Rakesh From c.anupam at gmail.com Mon Jun 8 13:55:43 2009 From: c.anupam at gmail.com (anupam chakravartty) Date: Mon, 8 Jun 2009 13:55:43 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Hindu article In-Reply-To: <00f001c9e80d$f11c4370$0201a8c0@limo> References: <006e01c9e751$89062ba0$0201a8c0@limo> <1f9180970906070400r2e988177uc885c0c642a43bef@mail.gmail.com> <00f001c9e80d$f11c4370$0201a8c0@limo> Message-ID: <341380d00906080125s159c119du6580b5df5c72ad43@mail.gmail.com> Bipin, Professor J.S. Bandukwala's house was attacked and burnt down by rioters in 2002. He is not that sort of a man who will tell you that he is treated like a second class citizen. That man has more books and guts which i am sure modi or maya kodnani wouldnt able to withstand. That man continues to write against Modi government's policies and its attitude towards muslims, stands for the helpless. I am 100% sure you havent met him or know anything about him. secondly, godhra remains as divided as it was. there is a municipal election on april 21 in the town. The BJP leadership has clearly spelt out that they dont care about those 9000-10000 votes from the muslim community in the town. signal faliya, 1.5 kilometres away from Godha railway station, mostly comprising of the muslims doesnt have roads connecting the houses. during the rains, the whole of the area remains submerged. on the other side of the railway station a few hundred meters ahead modi on march 17 unveiled a former IAF jet as a symbol of defence and security in the country completely turning a blind eye towards signal faliya or polan bazar in godhra where most of the muslims stay. contesting the municipal elections would be murli moolchandani, a VHP member, who was caught in the tehelka sting. third, noorani mohalla and K G park, two rehabilitatee colonies comprising of riot affected muslims even now doesnt have water supply or any kinds of roads leading to the houses. it is on the outskirts of Vadodara on ajwa road. please do check it out when you can. it is worse than a concentration camp with families trying to dirt clogging up the drains and water from the refuse collecting right front of the houses. two kilometers ahead there is a hospital for lepers -- the refuse from that hospital also comes and gathers in the area. mind you its on the Ajwa road of Vadodara city. third, ward no 3 of halol municipality. the councillor, saleem meer ended his fast yesterday (sunday) because all this years that place did not have a water connection while waters of Narmada has reached other nine wards of the town. ask the municipal board president, Nitin Shah about why there is a neglect, he will give you prompt reply saying that "ye to yaha ke nahi hai". fourth, since you are big fan of modi, you must have heard him. if he is talking about a police officer in his speech especially when he referred to mumbai police chief, gafoor, after 26/11 attacks, he said started his statement saying a police officer *that too a muslim. *his attitude continues to anti-muslim save for some of his muslim followers from Surat (always used a propaganda too erase the riots with a statement such as shias and vohras are with modi and sunnis are the ones who create problems) who after the riots accompanied him everywhere because they had specific business interests. i think you have absolutely no idea of Gujarat. And also gujarati people do not neccessarily treat muslim people badly, however, the political establishment has planned out its policies in such a way that they are reduced to second class citizens. however, there are sucess stories, own will power such as Prof Bandukwala which is independent and praiseworthy and should not be read in the context of treating someone as first class or second class citizen. you are offcourse free to have your opinion, but i would invite you to come and look around here in Vadodara. you can reply back on this space. i will guide you how you can get to vadodara. -anupam On 6/8/09, bipin wrote: > > Dear Venugopalan, > > What happened in 2002 is very painful and full sympathy with those who > died. Even in my earlier post, I have mentioned about this sad incidence. > > Refer the court findings and they scrolled Teesta in few occasions in > Zahira case. I also of the opinion that those who are culprit must be > punished and even Modi's involvement proved than also. Why I doubt Teesta > working, since she never show her will to fight for the rights of Hindu, > Sikh in Sikh riots, Kashmir Pundits in Kashmir, Bhagalpur victim, even she > has not turned up in Nandigram, Singur. So how can one trust her neutrality? > This is solid proof that she is working with guidance of their source of > funds. > > What the Hindu article tells is general for Gujarat's Muslims treated as II > class citizen is wrong. They are taking basis of about a lac (yet this is > also doubtful figure) yet to return to their home (but why? no body has > stopped them to return), the whole Gujarat Muslim community treated as II > class citizen. Don't you think this is ridiculous? For a few part of > community, you can not put generalize prediction for the community. The > incidence happened before 7 years and few thousand don't return to their > home and those whose homes has burned/destroyed, govt. has offered for > rehabilitation way back but stopped by the wasted interest forces who wants > to keep alive this issue forever! > > People of Gujarat (including Muslim community) has way back forgot this and > started their routine work in very co-operative and friendly environment. > Even leading Muslim figure/leader of Gujarat like Professor Bandukwala and > many others has confirmed this way back and continue today telling in many > open discussion forum. > > Mr. Venugopalan, I invite to come to Gujarat, I personally welcome you and > take you to even Godhra where this incidence happened and see yourself > whether you find any fear? Even I invite you with any of your Muslim friend > to roam any part of Gujarat and verify yourself that anywhere Muslim is not > at all treated as II class citizens. All the community stays in very harmony > without any fear and grudges. > > Now what is going on is malicious propaganda against Gujarat and Gujarati > community, nothing else. Whether you believe or not but this is hard truth. > > thanks > Bipin > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: Venugopalan K M > To: sarai-list > Sent: Sunday, June 07, 2009 4:30 PM > Subject: Re: [Reader-list] Hindu article > > > Dear Bipin, > > I'm afraid you are abusing he commonsense of everybody here. > Why don't you dispute what is already given there on the basis of merit > and substance? > What do you mean by Chamchas of Teesta? > And is what is so bad about Tessta and their "cottary"? > > About the Muslim citizens of Gujarat, again you arrogate to yourself > the privilege of paassing a judgement! Of whom at least two thousand people > were killed and over a lakh are reportedly yet to return to their homes > since the organized crimes of post-Godhra 2002, if they are not being > treated as second class citizens, are they being treated as non-citizens? > Will you please check the truth for yourself rather than advising others to > meet your Muslim friends in other states or to meet the 'aam Muslims' in > Gujaratin your imagination? > > Or rather, do you mean that they are graciously being allowed by Modi to > stay free of further fears of being targeted for killing and raping by > Hindus? That case, you are wrong sir; instead, it is apparently because the > killing hordes themselves had realized that Modi is not God to ensure them > impunity and because they come to realize that Modi himself is under the > shadow of trial under the IPC and the Cr PC for his culpability in what > transpired after Godhra. > > >"they agree that their relatives are far happy and feel safety in Gujarat" > > How cool! > How strange of a people constituting about 1/5 th of the entire population > confiding the secret to you being allowed to feel safe in their own lands > and homes! > > Best, > Venu. > > > > On Sun, Jun 7, 2009 at 2:52 PM, bipin wrote: > > Dear All, > > Who ever written this article HIndu is base less and far from truth. It > is totally false that Muslims are treated as second class citizen in > Gujarat. You ask any aam Muslim in Gujarat (don't ask chamcha's of Teesta > and their cottary) and you will have truth. > > Even I have many net Muslim friends from other states and on discussion, > they agreed that their relatives in Gujarat are far happy and feel safety in > Gujarat > > thanks > BIPIN > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > subscribe in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> > > > > -- > http://venukm.blogspot.com/ > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > subscribe in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> From monica at sarai.net Mon Jun 8 14:19:14 2009 From: monica at sarai.net (Monica Narula) Date: Mon, 8 Jun 2009 14:19:14 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Gap Minder Message-ID: <0ABE6237-A4F1-49CA-9C78-8BAEF0448E28@sarai.net> To me, Gapminder is a pretty terrific way to compress enormous amount of data into an approachable form. (check india's health data. or its education) > http://tinyurl.com/q9puao best M Monica Narula Raqs Media Collective Sarai-CSDS www.raqsmediacollective.net www.sarai.net From rakesh.rnbdj at gmail.com Mon Jun 8 14:52:18 2009 From: rakesh.rnbdj at gmail.com (Rakesh Iyer) Date: Mon, 8 Jun 2009 14:52:18 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Hindu article In-Reply-To: <341380d00906080125s159c119du6580b5df5c72ad43@mail.gmail.com> References: <006e01c9e751$89062ba0$0201a8c0@limo> <1f9180970906070400r2e988177uc885c0c642a43bef@mail.gmail.com> <00f001c9e80d$f11c4370$0201a8c0@limo> <341380d00906080125s159c119du6580b5df5c72ad43@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: Dear all I think one must also not forget that in all this, Modi had used Godhra to justify post Godhra violence, which in turn ensured communal polarization and victory for the BJP. Modi had launched a 'Gaurav Rath Yatra' then to use this polarization for electoral purpose. Neither then, nor now, do we know the truth of Godhra. We don't know why did the then Railway Minister, the current CM of Bihar, Mr. Nitish Kumar, not institute a Commission of Inquiry which is allowed under the Indian Railways act, which states that in case of any incident involving the Railways which leads to loss of lives or of property, a Commission must be instituted within 48 hours. Even today, Nitish Kumar has never answered about this. There was a huge hue and cry then that 58 karsewaks were burnt. The ironical part is that when the Railway Ministry was asked about the identity of the burnt people, they couldn't identify all of them. The reason of course was that people were travelling without reservation. Why was this allowed? Just because they were karsewaks or members of any party deeply involved in politics? And were all those who were burnt karsewaks? Can small children be karsewaks? The third problem is about justice to those families who suffered in Godhra. After Godhra was profitably used by the BJP to win Gujarat, nothing has happened. The only thing which the BJP may be enjoying today to do is to celebrate anniversary of Godhra tragedy, rather than actually doing something creditable to give justice in this matter. The Gujarat govt and the Gujarat police keep on changing their stand as and when they feel to do so. So initially the police says the train was burnt by Muslims from outside. When it is proved this is not possible, then they say Muslims tore open the S-6 compartment and then burnt the train. Then there is talk of evidence being misused with. Also, Modi and his men entered the train, when the correct thing would have been to let the train bogie be as it is simply because forensic evidence from the train is required to punish the culprits, and such going or disturbing can destroy forensic evidence or other things. As for the Nanavati Shah Commission, the less said the better. It seems the karsewaks were doing Gandhivadi protests while Razak Kurkur and others burnt the train at will! The SIT was constituted to investigate the same Godhra case, thereby disregarding the Nanavati Shah Commission view, that the train was burnt from outside. 7 years from then, we don't know the truth about Godhra. All thanks to BJP, and others who support them in this endeavor. The Commission was a farce (so also the UC Banerjee committee), and Godhra was horrendous. If I accept the contention that Muslims burnt the train, it was really shameful and despicable; and if I believe that it was an accident, then I still feel sorry for the victims and believe justice must be done. The 58 souls are still waiting for justice. Regards Rakesh From kmvenuannur at gmail.com Mon Jun 8 14:54:23 2009 From: kmvenuannur at gmail.com (Venugopalan K M) Date: Mon, 8 Jun 2009 14:54:23 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Hindu article In-Reply-To: <00f001c9e80d$f11c4370$0201a8c0@limo> References: <006e01c9e751$89062ba0$0201a8c0@limo> <1f9180970906070400r2e988177uc885c0c642a43bef@mail.gmail.com> <00f001c9e80d$f11c4370$0201a8c0@limo> Message-ID: <1f9180970906080224t40be33c8ld8d08c11874d5762@mail.gmail.com> Dear Bipin, >Why I doubt Teesta working, since she never show her will to fight for the rights of Hindu, Sikh in Sikh riots ,Kashmir Pundits in Kashmir, Bhagalpur victim, even she has not turned up in Nandigram, Singur. So how can one trust her neutrality? This is solid proof that she is working with guidance of their source of funds... Sounds strange! We were talking about Teesta's specific role in taking up many cases of organized violence perpetrated against a section of citizens by another section, which were also actively abeted by the Gujarat state administration by means of its several commissions and serious omissions.This has absolutely nothing to do with Teesta's not voicing her concerns about victims of violence elsewhere.Teesta is not a God incarnated to punish all those devils in Kashmir and Punjab,and Delhi!Perhaps we give less attention to what she did not do than what she really did to bring to book the culprits of Gujarat carnage and violence. Certainly, many of us here are more concerned with the culpable deeds of Modi administration ,like virtually declaring a lawless goonda raj against the Muslim population of Gujarat during those dreadful days of 2002. If at all the Zahira case and other cases related to the state violence exist as a serious criminal case ,it is thanks to lot of commendable work done by human rights activists like Teesta. I would not object even accepting overseas funds by her as long as the funding is legally valid. Regarding the court comments, I am not that woried. Didn't the SC opine in Afsal case like "that the collective conscience of the Nation demands awarding capital punishment to Afsal even in the context of lack of evidence that would have otherwise been necessary in proving the charges? Regards, Venu On Mon, Jun 8, 2009 at 1:18 PM, bipin wrote: > Dear Venugopalan, > > What happened in 2002 is very painful and full sympathy with those who > died. Even in my earlier post, I have mentioned about this sad incidence. > > Refer the court findings and they scrolled Teesta in few occasions in > Zahira case. I also of the opinion that those who are culprit must be > punished and even Modi's involvement proved than also. Why I doubt Teesta > working, since she never show her will to fight for the rights of Hindu, > Sikh in Sikh riots, Kashmir Pundits in Kashmir, Bhagalpur victim, even she > has not turned up in Nandigram, Singur. So how can one trust her neutrality? > This is solid proof that she is working with guidance of their source of > funds. > > What the Hindu article tells is general for Gujarat's Muslims treated as II > class citizen is wrong. They are taking basis of about a lac (yet this is > also doubtful figure) yet to return to their home (but why? no body has > stopped them to return), the whole Gujarat Muslim community treated as II > class citizen. Don't you think this is ridiculous? For a few part of > community, you can not put generalize prediction for the community. The > incidence happened before 7 years and few thousand don't return to their > home and those whose homes has burned/destroyed, govt. has offered for > rehabilitation way back but stopped by the wasted interest forces who wants > to keep alive this issue forever! > > People of Gujarat (including Muslim community) has way back forgot this and > started their routine work in very co-operative and friendly > environment. Even leading Muslim figure/leader of Gujarat like Professor > Bandukwala and many others has confirmed this way back and continue > today telling in many open discussion forum. > > Mr. Venugopalan, I invite to come to Gujarat, I personally welcome you and > take you to even Godhra where this incidence happened and see yourself > whether you find any fear? Even I invite you with any of your Muslim friend > to roam any part of Gujarat and verify yourself that anywhere Muslim is not > at all treated as II class citizens. All the community stays in very harmony > without any fear and grudges. > > Now what is going on is malicious propaganda against Gujarat and Gujarati > community, nothing else. Whether you believe or not but this is hard truth. > > thanks > Bipin > > > ----- Original Message ----- > *From:* Venugopalan K M > *To:* sarai-list > *Sent:* Sunday, June 07, 2009 4:30 PM > *Subject:* Re: [Reader-list] Hindu article > > Dear Bipin, > > I'm afraid you are abusing he commonsense of everybody here. > Why don't you dispute what is already given there on the basis of merit > and substance? > What do you mean by Chamchas of Teesta? > And is what is so bad about Tessta and their "cottary"? > > About the Muslim citizens of Gujarat, again you arrogate to yourself the > privilege of paassing a judgement! Of whom at least two thousand people were > killed and over a lakh are reportedly yet to return to their homes since the > organized crimes of post-Godhra 2002, if they are not being treated as > second class citizens, are they being treated as non-citizens? > Will you please check the truth for yourself rather than advising others to > meet your Muslim friends in other states or to meet the 'aam Muslims' in > Gujaratin your imagination? > > Or rather, do you mean that they are graciously being allowed by Modi to > stay free of further fears of being targeted for killing and raping by > Hindus? That case, you are wrong sir; instead, it is apparently because the > killing hordes themselves had realized that Modi is not God to ensure them > impunity and because they come to realize that Modi himself is under the > shadow of trial under the IPC and the Cr PC for his culpability in what > transpired after Godhra. > > >"they agree that their relatives are far happy and feel safety in Gujarat" > > How cool! > How strange of a people constituting about 1/5 th of the entire population > confiding the secret to you being allowed to feel safe in their own lands > and homes! > > Best, > Venu. > > > On Sun, Jun 7, 2009 at 2:52 PM, bipin wrote: > >> Dear All, >> >> Who ever written this article HIndu is base less and far from truth. It is >> totally false that Muslims are treated as second class citizen in Gujarat. >> You ask any aam Muslim in Gujarat (don't ask chamcha's of Teesta and their >> cottary) and you will have truth. >> >> Even I have many net Muslim friends from other states and on discussion, >> they agreed that their relatives in Gujarat are far happy and feel safety in >> Gujarat >> >> thanks >> BIPIN >> _________________________________________ >> reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. >> Critiques & Collaborations >> To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with >> subscribe in the subject header. >> To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list >> List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> > > > > > -- > http://venukm.blogspot.com/ > > -- http://venukm.blogspot.com/ From aliens at dataone.in Mon Jun 8 15:31:47 2009 From: aliens at dataone.in (bipin) Date: Mon, 08 Jun 2009 15:31:47 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Hindu article References: <006e01c9e751$89062ba0$0201a8c0@limo> <1f9180970906070400r2e988177uc885c0c642a43bef@mail.gmail.com> <00f001c9e80d$f11c4370$0201a8c0@limo> <1f9180970906080224t40be33c8ld8d08c11874d5762@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <003a01c9e820$23111790$0201a8c0@limo> That's true! Teesta has raised her voice only for Gujarat carnage and got international reputation what she wanted. that's all. This is the only criteria to judge a persons about the things they does praiseworthy!!! ----- Original Message ----- From: Venugopalan K M To: sarai-list Cc: bipin Sent: Monday, June 08, 2009 2:54 PM Subject: Re: [Reader-list] Hindu article Dear Bipin, >Why I doubt Teesta working, since she never show her will to fight for the rights of Hindu, Sikh in Sikh riots ,Kashmir Pundits in Kashmir, Bhagalpur victim, even she has not turned up in Nandigram, Singur. So how can one trust her neutrality? This is solid proof that she is working with guidance of their source of funds... Sounds strange! We were talking about Teesta's specific role in taking up many cases of organized violence perpetrated against a section of citizens by another section, which were also actively abeted by the Gujarat state administration by means of its several commissions and serious omissions.This has absolutely nothing to do with Teesta's not voicing her concerns about victims of violence elsewhere.Teesta is not a God incarnated to punish all those devils in Kashmir and Punjab,and Delhi!Perhaps we give less attention to what she did not do than what she really did to bring to book the culprits of Gujarat carnage and violence. Certainly, many of us here are more concerned with the culpable deeds of Modi administration ,like virtually declaring a lawless goonda raj against the Muslim population of Gujarat during those dreadful days of 2002. If at all the Zahira case and other cases related to the state violence exist as a serious criminal case ,it is thanks to lot of commendable work done by human rights activists like Teesta. I would not object even accepting overseas funds by her as long as the funding is legally valid. Regarding the court comments, I am not that woried. Didn't the SC opine in Afsal case like "that the collective conscience of the Nation demands awarding capital punishment to Afsal even in the context of lack of evidence that would have otherwise been necessary in proving the charges? Regards, Venu On Mon, Jun 8, 2009 at 1:18 PM, bipin wrote: Dear Venugopalan, What happened in 2002 is very painful and full sympathy with those who died. Even in my earlier post, I have mentioned about this sad incidence. Refer the court findings and they scrolled Teesta in few occasions in Zahira case. I also of the opinion that those who are culprit must be punished and even Modi's involvement proved than also. Why I doubt Teesta working, since she never show her will to fight for the rights of Hindu, Sikh in Sikh riots, Kashmir Pundits in Kashmir, Bhagalpur victim, even she has not turned up in Nandigram, Singur. So how can one trust her neutrality? This is solid proof that she is working with guidance of their source of funds. What the Hindu article tells is general for Gujarat's Muslims treated as II class citizen is wrong. They are taking basis of about a lac (yet this is also doubtful figure) yet to return to their home (but why? no body has stopped them to return), the whole Gujarat Muslim community treated as II class citizen. Don't you think this is ridiculous? For a few part of community, you can not put generalize prediction for the community. The incidence happened before 7 years and few thousand don't return to their home and those whose homes has burned/destroyed, govt. has offered for rehabilitation way back but stopped by the wasted interest forces who wants to keep alive this issue forever! People of Gujarat (including Muslim community) has way back forgot this and started their routine work in very co-operative and friendly environment. Even leading Muslim figure/leader of Gujarat like Professor Bandukwala and many others has confirmed this way back and continue today telling in many open discussion forum. Mr. Venugopalan, I invite to come to Gujarat, I personally welcome you and take you to even Godhra where this incidence happened and see yourself whether you find any fear? Even I invite you with any of your Muslim friend to roam any part of Gujarat and verify yourself that anywhere Muslim is not at all treated as II class citizens. All the community stays in very harmony without any fear and grudges. Now what is going on is malicious propaganda against Gujarat and Gujarati community, nothing else. Whether you believe or not but this is hard truth. thanks Bipin ----- Original Message ----- From: Venugopalan K M To: sarai-list Sent: Sunday, June 07, 2009 4:30 PM Subject: Re: [Reader-list] Hindu article Dear Bipin, I'm afraid you are abusing he commonsense of everybody here. Why don't you dispute what is already given there on the basis of merit and substance? What do you mean by Chamchas of Teesta? And is what is so bad about Tessta and their "cottary"? About the Muslim citizens of Gujarat, again you arrogate to yourself the privilege of paassing a judgement! Of whom at least two thousand people were killed and over a lakh are reportedly yet to return to their homes since the organized crimes of post-Godhra 2002, if they are not being treated as second class citizens, are they being treated as non-citizens? Will you please check the truth for yourself rather than advising others to meet your Muslim friends in other states or to meet the 'aam Muslims' in Gujaratin your imagination? Or rather, do you mean that they are graciously being allowed by Modi to stay free of further fears of being targeted for killing and raping by Hindus? That case, you are wrong sir; instead, it is apparently because the killing hordes themselves had realized that Modi is not God to ensure them impunity and because they come to realize that Modi himself is under the shadow of trial under the IPC and the Cr PC for his culpability in what transpired after Godhra. >"they agree that their relatives are far happy and feel safety in Gujarat" How cool! How strange of a people constituting about 1/5 th of the entire population confiding the secret to you being allowed to feel safe in their own lands and homes! Best, Venu. On Sun, Jun 7, 2009 at 2:52 PM, bipin wrote: Dear All, Who ever written this article HIndu is base less and far from truth. It is totally false that Muslims are treated as second class citizen in Gujarat. You ask any aam Muslim in Gujarat (don't ask chamcha's of Teesta and their cottary) and you will have truth. Even I have many net Muslim friends from other states and on discussion, they agreed that their relatives in Gujarat are far happy and feel safety in Gujarat thanks BIPIN _________________________________________ reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. Critiques & Collaborations To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with subscribe in the subject header. To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> -- http://venukm.blogspot.com/ -- http://venukm.blogspot.com/ From rakesh.rnbdj at gmail.com Mon Jun 8 15:40:31 2009 From: rakesh.rnbdj at gmail.com (Rakesh Iyer) Date: Mon, 8 Jun 2009 15:40:31 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Hindu article In-Reply-To: <003a01c9e820$23111790$0201a8c0@limo> References: <006e01c9e751$89062ba0$0201a8c0@limo> <1f9180970906070400r2e988177uc885c0c642a43bef@mail.gmail.com> <00f001c9e80d$f11c4370$0201a8c0@limo> <1f9180970906080224t40be33c8ld8d08c11874d5762@mail.gmail.com> <003a01c9e820$23111790$0201a8c0@limo> Message-ID: Dear Bipin ji Your point is not exactly right, because Teesta Satalvad not talking about other riots does not mean that she believes they were right. Second, and the more important point is that, we should not care about Teesta and her supporters. The larger question is that of justice, justice for those who died in Godhra, justice for those who died in the post-Godhra violence. If Teesta, or Rahul Gandhi, or George Bush, or Manmohan Singh, or Veerappa Moily, or Shuddhabrata Sengupta, or Anupam Chakravarty, or Rajen Uppinangadi, or Pawan Durani or yourself or myself or anyone else are taking certain actions which help in ensuring that justice is done for both these incidents, what is so wrong about it? Who cares what are the motives of any of the people mentioned above or anyone else who does the same? Why should we care about them? If Achuhanandan can help to unravel corruption of Pinarayi Vijayan tomorrow, why should I worry about the motive of Achuthanandan in doing so? My larger point is that a corrupt politician is caught and punished. That is what should matter to us. So if you wish to say she does all this for personal popularity, that doesn't require importance. But yes, if she impedes the process of getting justice, then certainly she should be probed or looked at carefully. As of now, that is not the case at least. Regards Rakesh From c.anupam at gmail.com Mon Jun 8 15:42:05 2009 From: c.anupam at gmail.com (anupam chakravartty) Date: Mon, 8 Jun 2009 15:42:05 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Hindu article In-Reply-To: <003a01c9e820$23111790$0201a8c0@limo> References: <006e01c9e751$89062ba0$0201a8c0@limo> <1f9180970906070400r2e988177uc885c0c642a43bef@mail.gmail.com> <00f001c9e80d$f11c4370$0201a8c0@limo> <1f9180970906080224t40be33c8ld8d08c11874d5762@mail.gmail.com> <003a01c9e820$23111790$0201a8c0@limo> Message-ID: <341380d00906080312s6fe932bfwef76c44eac1e9c7d@mail.gmail.com> dear bipin and others, why are we discussing teesta here? the issue is about treatment meted out to the muslims. looks like you are hellbent on trivialising the issue. what do you have to say about noorani mohalla, signal faliya? have u been there? or this is just some kind of shadow boxing that you love to engage in. -anupam On 6/8/09, bipin wrote: > > That's true! Teesta has raised her voice only for Gujarat carnage and got > international reputation what she wanted. that's all. This is the only > criteria to judge a persons about the things they does praiseworthy!!! > ----- Original Message ----- > From: Venugopalan K M > To: sarai-list > Cc: bipin > Sent: Monday, June 08, 2009 2:54 PM > Subject: Re: [Reader-list] Hindu article > > > Dear Bipin, > > >Why I doubt Teesta working, since she never show her will to fight for the > rights of Hindu, Sikh in Sikh riots ,Kashmir Pundits in Kashmir, Bhagalpur > victim, even she has not turned up in Nandigram, Singur. So how can one > trust her neutrality? This is solid proof that she is working with guidance > of their source of funds... > > Sounds strange! > We were talking about Teesta's specific role in taking up many cases of > organized violence perpetrated against a section of citizens by another > section, which were also actively abeted by the Gujarat state administration > by means of its several commissions and serious omissions.This has > absolutely nothing to do with Teesta's not voicing her concerns about > victims of violence elsewhere.Teesta is not a God incarnated to punish all > those devils in Kashmir and Punjab,and Delhi!Perhaps we give less attention > to what she did not do than what she really did to bring to book the > culprits of Gujarat carnage and violence. > Certainly, many of us here are more concerned with the culpable deeds of > Modi administration ,like virtually declaring a lawless goonda raj against > the Muslim population of Gujarat during those dreadful days of 2002. > If at all the Zahira case and other cases related to the state violence > exist as a serious criminal case ,it is thanks to lot of commendable work > done by human rights activists like Teesta. I would not object even > accepting overseas funds by her as long as the funding is legally valid. > Regarding the court comments, I am not that woried. Didn't the SC opine in > Afsal case like "that the collective conscience of the Nation demands > awarding capital punishment to Afsal even in the context of lack of evidence > that would have otherwise been necessary in proving the charges? > Regards, > Venu > > > > > On Mon, Jun 8, 2009 at 1:18 PM, bipin wrote: > > Dear Venugopalan, > > What happened in 2002 is very painful and full sympathy with those who > died. Even in my earlier post, I have mentioned about this sad incidence. > > Refer the court findings and they scrolled Teesta in few occasions in > Zahira case. I also of the opinion that those who are culprit must be > punished and even Modi's involvement proved than also. Why I doubt Teesta > working, since she never show her will to fight for the rights of Hindu, > Sikh in Sikh riots, Kashmir Pundits in Kashmir, Bhagalpur victim, even she > has not turned up in Nandigram, Singur. So how can one trust her neutrality? > This is solid proof that she is working with guidance of their source of > funds. > > What the Hindu article tells is general for Gujarat's Muslims treated as > II class citizen is wrong. They are taking basis of about a lac (yet this is > also doubtful figure) yet to return to their home (but why? no body has > stopped them to return), the whole Gujarat Muslim community treated as II > class citizen. Don't you think this is ridiculous? For a few part of > community, you can not put generalize prediction for the community. The > incidence happened before 7 years and few thousand don't return to their > home and those whose homes has burned/destroyed, govt. has offered for > rehabilitation way back but stopped by the wasted interest forces who wants > to keep alive this issue forever! > > People of Gujarat (including Muslim community) has way back forgot this > and started their routine work in very co-operative and friendly > environment. Even leading Muslim figure/leader of Gujarat like Professor > Bandukwala and many others has confirmed this way back and continue today > telling in many open discussion forum. > > Mr. Venugopalan, I invite to come to Gujarat, I personally welcome you > and take you to even Godhra where this incidence happened and see yourself > whether you find any fear? Even I invite you with any of your Muslim friend > to roam any part of Gujarat and verify yourself that anywhere Muslim is not > at all treated as II class citizens. All the community stays in very harmony > without any fear and grudges. > > Now what is going on is malicious propaganda against Gujarat and > Gujarati community, nothing else. Whether you believe or not but this is > hard truth. > > thanks > Bipin > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: Venugopalan K M > To: sarai-list > Sent: Sunday, June 07, 2009 4:30 PM > Subject: Re: [Reader-list] Hindu article > > > Dear Bipin, > > I'm afraid you are abusing he commonsense of everybody here. > Why don't you dispute what is already given there on the basis of > merit and substance? > What do you mean by Chamchas of Teesta? > And is what is so bad about Tessta and their "cottary"? > > About the Muslim citizens of Gujarat, again you arrogate > to yourself the privilege of paassing a judgement! Of whom at least two > thousand people were killed and over a lakh are reportedly yet to return to > their homes since the organized crimes of post-Godhra 2002, if they are not > being treated as second class citizens, are they being treated as > non-citizens? > Will you please check the truth for yourself rather than advising > others to meet your Muslim friends in other states or to meet the 'aam > Muslims' in Gujaratin your imagination? > > Or rather, do you mean that they are graciously being allowed by Modi > to stay free of further fears of being targeted for killing and raping by > Hindus? That case, you are wrong sir; instead, it is apparently because the > killing hordes themselves had realized that Modi is not God to ensure them > impunity and because they come to realize that Modi himself is under the > shadow of trial under the IPC and the Cr PC for his culpability in what > transpired after Godhra. > > >"they agree that their relatives are far happy and feel safety in > Gujarat" > > How cool! > How strange of a people constituting about 1/5 th of the entire > population confiding the secret to you being allowed to feel safe in their > own lands and homes! > > Best, > Venu. > > > > On Sun, Jun 7, 2009 at 2:52 PM, bipin wrote: > > Dear All, > > Who ever written this article HIndu is base less and far from truth. > It is totally false that Muslims are treated as second class citizen in > Gujarat. You ask any aam Muslim in Gujarat (don't ask chamcha's of Teesta > and their cottary) and you will have truth. > > Even I have many net Muslim friends from other states and on > discussion, they agreed that their relatives in Gujarat are far happy and > feel safety in Gujarat > > thanks > BIPIN > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > subscribe in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> > > > > -- > http://venukm.blogspot.com/ > > > > > -- > http://venukm.blogspot.com/ > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > subscribe in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> From rajen786uppinangady at gmail.com Mon Jun 8 16:28:21 2009 From: rajen786uppinangady at gmail.com (Rajendra Bhat Uppinangadi) Date: Mon, 8 Jun 2009 16:28:21 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Fwd: Fw: Re: i was stunned In-Reply-To: <7271ec560906080355o5865886r5d6f16dc94f47ce1@mail.gmail.com> References: <289838.89194.qm@web94707.mail.in2.yahoo.com> <7271ec560906070101i18880411tc867de1d0f1f0c42@mail.gmail.com> <341380d00906070206m2e43d179nfcbaf10381f7f435@mail.gmail.com> <7271ec560906070534p1bb69f1eic74e539e861b27a9@mail.gmail.com> <341380d00906070547j49dbd943t248ae30045cd5e4f@mail.gmail.com> <7271ec560906080053i31ee3eb5hd2f529ce9345dfcb@mail.gmail.com> <1f9180970906080333r206da439pefcdd1847c8112e7@mail.gmail.com> <7271ec560906080355o5865886r5d6f16dc94f47ce1@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <7271ec560906080358t4d1168b3sb1cb75a6cc29e48d@mail.gmail.com> ---------- Forwarded message ---------- From: Rajendra Bhat Uppinangadi Date: Mon, Jun 8, 2009 at 4:25 PM Subject: Re: [Reader-list] Fw: Re: i was stunned To: Venugopalan K M Cc: Rajen Uppinangadi Dear all, now that some semblance of maturity is prevalent in list as we talk about the issues regarding the good governance going for a toss with corruption of the individuals in politics, administration and judiciary, I must congratulate the list and its members for the good thoughts about the issues affecting the society. Having said that, some have reservations about me talking about Modi, hence the clarification, have any of you have any proof for the direct involvement of Modi in the riots except the media which was on witch-hunting expedition for Congress, if so, please submit it to SIT on the riots, let the facts come out, if it is true. All along it is perception aided and abetted by partisan media that have been projected as intellectual conception of Modi and his guilt of particpatory riots, which I strongly take exception to. In case of the delhi riots, Jagadeesh Tytler and sajjan Kumar had visited the police stations to get their "men" from detention. If some body talks of works of tehelka, it does not much hold water as tehelka is sister organisation of Amarinder singh sponsored media house, so once in a while they have some small fish from all parties including the Congress but their major target is only BJP. Media also have a dubious role when it comes to projection of crimes in BJP ruled states, but in Congress ruled states they have a different yardstick, which is worrysome for anyone in nation. For example, mayajal and mayavathi was big song and dance sequence for IBN for one day, but very next day when the OB van was attacked, correspondent beaten up, maya and mayajal had wonderful effect on this channel and its anchor. BJP is soft target because till now as a political party it has not shown its goon behaviour and treated dissent with respect and studied silence. In Delhi when movement of women became precarious, there was no special song and dance by anchors, even rape and murders were in small captions for Delhi state, as all the media house are located in and around Delhi and need the patronage of the system of governance. If its RSS, media seem to be on overdrive as RSS hardly has any PRO, except that recently, for the last few years a spokesperson is there to respond with sane words unlike the goons of other political spectrum.Talk of prince in waiting only in goody gody words, or else the advertisement from PSU are affected, and so are the media in spin for the prince and suddenly find all virtues in the same person about whom, few months ago , they were talking of his immature comments on partition and Bangladesh.! Fact of the matter is media and its spin doctors do all the jobs for a valid consideration, nothing is free in this material world.? In the list as we exchange thoughts for all of us t have a better understanding of the society and the time we live in, we need not be mercenaries for any one, so when rakesh ji assumes that i hold brief for Modi, he is going with his perception, nothing else. Being politically correct is not quite possible if one would like to go with facts. Regards, Rajen. On Mon, Jun 8, 2009 at 4:03 PM, Venugopalan K M wrote: > Dear Rajen, > Ideally speaking, no political strong man is to be considered above the > law. > Doesn't politics make us behave in partisan ways, however? > While you were rightly invoking the cases of Pinarayi& Lavlene, > Nanigram&Singur, anti-Sikh pogroms done by the Congress,etc on the one hand, > you certainly seem keeping favour for Modi&Co.in the context of Gujarat. > Perhaps this sort of stereotypical attitude often makes any discussion > devoid of real merit and meaning. > I would agree that Lavlene will certainly make a serious case of > corruption charges against a prominent leader of the Left. But what about > the propreity of a Governer acting against the advice of a State government? > Will it not tantamount in defying the principle of federalism as enshrined > in the Constitution? According to many Constitution experts' and jurists' > view, the Governer could at best have sent back the advise (against > prosecution of Pinarayi by the CBI ) for reconsidering by the State > Goverment to ensure the Constitutinality of his action. In that case, the > obligation on the part of the Govt to proceed with giving assent to the > prosecution would have looked like more a democratic pressure than an > authoritarian one , from a central agency, which is again, motivated by the > politics of the ruling party. > If the country is to exist as a composite polity of different sub > nationalities embedded in a quasi-federal set up as envisioned by the > Constitution, the basics should certainly be adhered to rather than be > undermined under whatever pretext. The action by the Governer of Kerala is > nothing short of display of authoritarianism against a democratically > elected state power. > > Regards, > Venu. > > > > n Mon, Jun 8, 2009 at 1:23 PM, Rajendra Bhat Uppinangadi < > rajen786uppinangady at gmail.com> wrote: > >> Anupam ji, >> >> it is interesting to note that we have another set of demons for reader >> list addition in Pinarayi Vijayan, with biggest scam in Kerala state for >> looting of the state funds to the extent of 374 crores, funds released for >> not working.! Communists whatever said and done, had no blemished >> individuals as to corruption and loot of public funds, but after the >> advent >> of Nandigram chemical hub for Salim group of Indonesia by the CM of west >> bengal, later the issue of SMC lavelin, canadian company getting paid for >> work not done, has brought the other side of the communist leaders in to >> stark focus. In the list, when posted of the news of Pinarayi Vijayan, >> there >> was no response from anyone as if talking against the big boss of >> politburo >> is great offence by the sympathisers, CM of Kerala who is known for his >> simplicity and clean image is first to rebel against politburo on this >> issue, but was asked to resign if he felt so strongly about the issue, >> what >> have you got to say, other than politically right words of say, law will >> take its own course.? >> >> As to bofors and its aftermath, the pity is the gen- next has not read >> wonderfully written investigative journalism of Ms. Chithra Subramaniam in >> the newspaper the Hindu, then, and even now seem to be under illusion that >> uncle Q is clean, or not sufficient evience against uncle Q.Fact is the >> judicial process was subverted systematically, delayed the trial process >> and >> thus the entire exercise of getting at the guilty became a farce of laws >> taking their own course as directed by those in power.! >> >> With new truths emerging about the judiciary and the ethics of the >> judges >> and morals of these lawyers, nothing much is expected to happen in the >> rule >> of laws unless the citizens are aware as to how the judiciary is being >> subverted with corrupt practices of honouring the corrupt after their >> retirement as heads of office of profits, such as human rights >> commissions, >> inquiry commisssions where the guilty are exempted from punishment even as >> judges of supreme court cry hoarse about the human rights commisssion >> rexommends scot free life for murder convict as he is political >> strongman.?Please read the papers of the day for details. >> >> On Sun, Jun 7, 2009 at 6:17 PM, anupam chakravartty > >wrote: >> >> > Dear Rajen, >> > >> > You can go on making modi the able administrator and i can demonise him. >> > however, the place from where you stand see what;s happening in Gujarat >> is >> > very different from where i see it. and it is not exactly a problem for >> you >> > if we criticise sonia or manmohan but it is a problem for u if it modi. >> it >> > would have not been a topic if you would not have considered modi as an >> > able >> > administrator. >> > >> > it is because of such advantages people like modi are ruling else he >> would >> > have been in the jail. >> > >> > -anupam >> > >> > >> > >> > On 6/7/09, Rajendra Bhat Uppinangadi >> > wrote: >> > > >> > > Dear All, >> > > >> > > This is exactly the advantage of democratic life, all can have their >> > > opinion, express it in most good or pervert bad ill will, still, all >> of >> > us >> > > accept it, such dissent is possible only in democratic life.One can >> > express >> > > freely about a Modi, about a Sonia or about a Lalu, but some resort to >> > tell >> > > it thousands of times to reinforce that Modi is bad, again their way >> of >> > > being in limelight for their thoughts.! >> > > >> > > By the way Bhagalpur riots had different story to tell the miseries of >> > > humans, Ashish nandy is quiet on that front.? >> > > >> > > Regards, >> > > >> > > Rajen. >> > > >> > > On Sun, Jun 7, 2009 at 2:36 PM, anupam chakravartty < >> c.anupam at gmail.com >> > >wrote: >> > > >> > >> Dear Rajen, >> > >> >> > >> Modi is nothing but an advertising genius. while he can advertise >> about >> > GM >> > >> plants in Halol and metro coach, heritage site in Pavagadh in >> > Panchmahals, >> > >> Halol town doesnt have single drainage system in the town. if you >> ever >> > go >> > >> there, you might find disgruntled BJP chairman of the nagarpalika, >> nitin >> > >> shah, who has been running from pillar to post in gandhinagar for >> > drainage >> > >> system in the town. successive governments including congres and BJP >> > were >> > >> not bothered about it, even Modi isnt. if you think he is able >> > >> administrator, you are living in some different world. >> > >> >> > >> secondly, modi recently stated that gujarat would lead the second >> green >> > >> revolution. if you ever find out about project sunshine of >> distributing >> > >> monsanto hybrid seeds to trbal farmers you will gasp. for first two >> > years, >> > >> they were given free seeds for maize, this year monsanto with the >> > consent >> > >> of >> > >> gujarat government is distributing the seeds for Rs 500 a pack for a >> > >> farmer >> > >> who has to pawn his fields to buy the seeds. i would not be surprised >> if >> > >> another vidarbha like situation starts in gujarat. offcourse the >> yields >> > >> can >> > >> only get better with continous usage of fertilizers and pesticides >> (most >> > >> of >> > >> them have restricted usage in the nation) altering the quality of the >> > soil >> > >> forever. >> > >> >> > >> able administration comes from humble admissions that yes this is not >> > >> working in my state and i need to fix it. it doesnt come loud, >> > absolutely >> > >> juvenile statements. other chief ministers do not do so at least in >> my >> > >> knowledge but what mr modi has been doing is advertising campaign >> which >> > >> has >> > >> buyers such as you. >> > >> >> > >> thanks anupam >> > >> >> > >> >> > >> On 6/7/09, Rakesh Iyer wrote: >> > >> > >> > >> > Dear Rajen jee >> > >> > >> > >> > You think I hate Modi. Interestingly, Modi hates non-vegetarians in >> > his >> > >> own >> > >> > party (like he hated Kashiram Rana of his own party). So much for >> > >> hatred! >> > >> > >> > >> > The fact is that the developmental model which Modi brags about, is >> > >> useless >> > >> > and sooner or later is going to lead Gujarat to utter disaster. The >> > >> poverty >> > >> > levels in Gujarat are still about 14.07%. Around 2006-07, Modi and >> his >> > >> > govt. >> > >> > were bragging for being declared the best govt as per a survey >> > conducted >> > >> by >> > >> > the Rajiv Gandhi foundation. The reality is that the Modi govt. was >> > >> rated >> > >> > best only for 'Economic Freedom'. >> > >> > >> > >> > As a proof, I give link of this article published in the Hindu: >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> >> > >> http://www.thehindubusinessline.com/2005/06/27/stories/2005062700200900.htm >> > >> > >> > >> > Modi is exactly doing what George Bush was good at, propagandas. If >> > you >> > >> say >> > >> > a lie 1000 times, people believe it's the truth. So, when Bush said >> > >> again >> > >> > and again that Iraq had WMD's, Americans were convinced, or at >> least a >> > >> > section were. And the local media was used very easily. Similar is >> the >> > >> case >> > >> > in Gujarat, where the local Gujarati media plays in hands of Modi, >> and >> > >> he >> > >> > convinced them and still does so that not only do Muslims deserve >> to >> > be >> > >> > second class citizens (which is now implicit post Godhra), but also >> > that >> > >> > his >> > >> > developmental model is the best. >> > >> > >> > >> > More importantly, what he has done is only going to prove >> disastrous >> > in >> > >> the >> > >> > long run. Around the coastal regions, you have factories coming up >> > >> without >> > >> > proper laws or procedure being followed, and the result is that the >> > salt >> > >> > which is obtained from sea water in these coastal regions is >> turning >> > >> black >> > >> > due to pollution from the factories. This is Modi's management! And >> I >> > >> say >> > >> > Modi because he likes to show that he is the boss. >> > >> > >> > >> > Please don't get swept away by the Modi mania, otherwise India will >> > >> anyways >> > >> > hit a six by sweeping him over the ropes when the battle comes up >> in >> > >> 2014, >> > >> > and you will then feel bad about it. >> > >> > >> > >> > As for the other riots, all those involved in them,directly and >> > >> indirectly, >> > >> > belonging to whichever party and whichever community, or being of >> any >> > >> > religion, should be put behind bars and cases properly registered, >> > >> > investigated and taken to their logical conclusions in the quickest >> > >> > possible >> > >> > time. Those who don't do so, whether it be Modi in Gujarat or the >> > >> Congress >> > >> > in Delhi, are culprits, at least as I see it. >> > >> > >> > >> > Regards >> > >> > >> > >> > Rakesh >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > On Sun, Jun 7, 2009 at 1:31 PM, Rajendra Bhat Uppinangadi < >> > >> > rajen786uppinangady at gmail.com> wrote: >> > >> > >> > >> > > Dear Rakesh, >> > >> > > >> > >> > > you seem to have the patent hate for the leaders like Modi who >> > have >> > >> > > administered well, got elected again and again because of the >> good >> > >> > > governance, and conveniently forget that many other riots have >> shown >> > >> that >> > >> > > all humans have an animal side to them, like in Bhagalpur riots, >> it >> > >> was >> > >> > > goons of other political parties had raped the muslim women and >> > killed >> > >> > > innocent muslims in many other riots. To generalise that only in >> one >> > >> > state >> > >> > > gujarath the riots had muslim as victims shows tht insufficient >> > study >> > >> has >> > >> > > taken place,please find enclosed a study of riots which was postd >> in >> > >> the >> > >> > > list for your ready reference. >> > >> > > >> > >> > > Regards, >> > >> > > >> > >> > > Rajen. >> > >> > > >> > >> > > On Sun, Jun 7, 2009 at 11:39 AM, Rakesh Iyer < >> > rakesh.rnbdj at gmail.com >> > >> > >wrote: >> > >> > > >> > >> > >> Dear Vedavati jee (and all) >> > >> > >> >> > >> > >> First of all, you should stop being a spokesman for the entire >> > Hindu >> > >> > >> community. Who are you to say that Muslims have survived in >> India >> > >> > because >> > >> > >> the majority of people here were Hindus? Don't Muslims survive >> in >> > >> > America >> > >> > >> too? Don't they live in England? Don't they live in other >> nations, >> > >> > >> including >> > >> > >> China? And how did you draw the conclusion that Muslims have >> > survived >> > >> > >> because of a Hindu majority in India? >> > >> > >> >> > >> > >> Secondly, I would strongly urge you or request you to stop >> looking >> > at >> > >> > >> issues >> > >> > >> from Jewish, Hindu or Muslim point of view. We already had a >> great >> > >> > >> president >> > >> > >> in George Bush in America to do that and the world has paid a >> price >> > >> for >> > >> > >> it. >> > >> > >> Similarly, we have our own Narendra Modi in India, who has been >> > >> > constantly >> > >> > >> trying to rupture the foundations of our Indian Republic as >> > enshrined >> > >> in >> > >> > >> the >> > >> > >> Constitution. >> > >> > >> >> > >> > >> By speaking out against secularism, you are speaking against the >> > very >> > >> > >> Constitution of India, and for your own consideration, can be >> > treated >> > >> as >> > >> > a >> > >> > >> 'traitor' by the same yardstick of the Constitution. This is >> also >> > for >> > >> > all >> > >> > >> those who constantly attack secularism on this forum. At least >> you >> > >> are >> > >> > >> nationalistic, you should know this. >> > >> > >> >> > >> > >> Instead of venting out your anger, please give rational/logical >> > >> > arguments >> > >> > >> about why secularism is wrong. At least Ashish Nandy had a point >> > when >> > >> he >> > >> > >> said that secularism has increased communal violence in India, >> for >> > >> > secular >> > >> > >> modern development has cut off people from their cultural roots, >> > who >> > >> > then >> > >> > >> take refuge in Hindutva and this leads to problems. What do you >> > have >> > >> as >> > >> > an >> > >> > >> argument against secularism? >> > >> > >> >> > >> > >> Please look at issues from a human angle. I accept that Kashmiri >> > >> Hindus >> > >> > >> have >> > >> > >> a right, and the fate of any self-determined/Indian >> > >> occupation/Pakistani >> > >> > >> occupation of Kashmir must take the views and ideas of all >> sections >> > >> of >> > >> > the >> > >> > >> Kashmiri society into consideration. And as for the Kashmiri >> > Pandits, >> > >> to >> > >> > a >> > >> > >> certain degree India has failed them. And it was not as if under >> > the >> > >> > right >> > >> > >> wing govt in India, they were living a life of paradise either. >> > >> > >> >> > >> > >> Thirdly, on a personal level, I would urge you to at least start >> > >> > trusting >> > >> > >> the ability of human beings, and having faith in them, at least >> > till >> > >> you >> > >> > >> have proof to the contrary. If you have suffered a tragedy at >> the >> > >> hands >> > >> > of >> > >> > >> one Muslim or a few Muslims, it doesn't mean the entire >> community >> > >> must >> > >> > be >> > >> > >> criticized for the same. And anyways, are not there bad people >> in >> > the >> > >> > >> Hindu >> > >> > >> community? >> > >> > >> >> > >> > >> Weren't those who raped Muslim women in the post-Godhra riots >> > Hindus? >> > >> > >> Weren't those who indulged in violence during that time Hindus? >> Is >> > >> > >> violence >> > >> > >> acceptable? Do you think rape is the way to solve 'Hindu-Muslim >> > >> problem' >> > >> > >> which is in the minds first and on the roads later? Do you >> advocate >> > >> this >> > >> > >> as >> > >> > >> the way to avenge Godhra? >> > >> > >> >> > >> > >> And if they are Hindus, which I hope you would accept, should >> the >> > >> entire >> > >> > >> Hindu community be criticized? Should we denounce Hinduism? Are >> all >> > >> > Hindus >> > >> > >> then inhuman, as Osama Bin Laden would like the Muslims around >> the >> > >> world >> > >> > >> to >> > >> > >> believe? >> > >> > >> >> > >> > >> Please think about this, it's a humble request from me. So also >> for >> > >> the >> > >> > >> others. Here I am not saying you shouldn't be nationalistic >> (this I >> > >> > >> believe >> > >> > >> is very difficult to change), but at least for the sake of the >> > nation >> > >> > >> which >> > >> > >> you put before yourself, at least understand the true nature of >> the >> > >> > >> problem >> > >> > >> instead of looking at it through skewed minds. >> > >> > >> >> > >> > >> Regards >> > >> > >> >> > >> > >> Rakesh >> > >> > >> _________________________________________ >> > >> > >> reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. >> > >> > >> Critiques & Collaborations >> > >> > >> To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.netwith >> > >> > >> subscribe in the subject header. >> > >> > >> To unsubscribe: >> > https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list >> > >> > >> List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/ >> > >> > >> > > >> > >> > > >> > >> > > >> > >> > > >> > >> > > -- >> > >> > > Rajen. >> > >> > > >> > >> > _________________________________________ >> > >> > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. >> > >> > Critiques & Collaborations >> > >> > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with >> > >> > subscribe in the subject header. >> > >> > To unsubscribe: >> https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list >> > >> > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> >> > >> _________________________________________ >> > >> reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. >> > >> Critiques & Collaborations >> > >> To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with >> > >> subscribe in the subject header. >> > >> To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list >> > >> List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> >> > >> >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > > -- >> > > Rajen. >> > > >> > _________________________________________ >> > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. >> > Critiques & Collaborations >> > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with >> > subscribe in the subject header. >> > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list >> > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> >> > >> >> >> >> -- >> Rajen. >> _________________________________________ >> reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. >> Critiques & Collaborations >> To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with >> subscribe in the subject header. >> To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list >> List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> >> > > > > -- > http://venukm.blogspot.com/ > -- Rajen. -- Rajen. From yasir.media at gmail.com Mon Jun 8 16:52:29 2009 From: yasir.media at gmail.com (=?windows-1256?B?eWFzaXIgfu3HINPR?=) Date: Mon, 8 Jun 2009 16:22:29 +0500 Subject: [Reader-list] edited man In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <5af37bb0906080422w28e1c178tc4889a279ef244b3@mail.gmail.com> is there a link to the image of the figure. or do we just figure that. best y On Thu, May 28, 2009 at 4:16 PM, Jeebesh wrote: > > We found the seated figure of a man in somebody's storage space. We > found him sitting and with what sees to us to be like a startled look > on his face. We have been wondering what would it mean to work towards > him acquire a life, a philosophy, tastes, passions, a repertoire of > sentiments, a list of favourite books, songs, movies and secret > desires, ever since we found him > > We invite you to look carefully at his image, and respond, with a > brief text, anything from an epigram to a paragraph or a page, or a > series drawings, or an essay, or a fiction, or an idea for an art > work, or a story, or a poem, or a song, or a quote, or an anecdote, or > a travel dairy notation, or a bibliography, or a joke, or another > image, or a reference to other works, or all of the above or something > else. > > You could even make a list of provisions that you think he might need, > books and texts you might want him to read, music that you might want > him to listen to, or things that you might want him to take along as > he makes his way in the world. You can also choose to respond in a > completely tangential and oblique way, if you so wish, bypassing our > sense of who he is, and communicating directly with the figure and > what he represents to you. > > We would like to gather your responses into a book that we want to > make as an accompaniment to the work that we will produce in the > autumn this year. > > Please send us your response by 31st July. > > Warm greetings > > Raqs Media Collective > June, 2009 > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with subscribe in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> From kshmendra2005 at yahoo.com Mon Jun 8 16:59:37 2009 From: kshmendra2005 at yahoo.com (Kshmendra Kaul) Date: Mon, 8 Jun 2009 04:29:37 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Reader-list] Hindu divided family by Sudheendra Kulkarni Message-ID: <609488.23874.qm@web57204.mail.re3.yahoo.com> Dear Anupam   Thanks for sharing this. That is one helluva honest and bold introspective piece by Kulkarni. Maybe there is yet some hope for BJP.   2 Reader List bounties in quick succession (in the midst of all the traded nonsense - including by me).   This one posted by you and Santosh Desai's "Analyzing the constant election analysis" posted by Taha.   Kshmendra --- On Mon, 6/8/09, anupam chakravartty wrote: From: anupam chakravartty Subject: [Reader-list] Hindu divided family by Sudheendra Kulkarni To: "sarai list" Date: Monday, June 8, 2009, 12:13 PM *Hindu Divided Family* *In a deeply introspective essay, LK Advani’s key aide says that if the BJP wants to win, it needs to rethink its approach to Muslims, Hindutva, the poor, the RSS, and itself* *SUDHEENDRA KULKARNI* * Political advisor, BJP* FIRST THINGS first. Before I reflect on why the Bharatiya Janata Party lost the Lok Sabha elections and how it can revive itself, it must be said that the outcome of the polls is a resounding victory for India’s democracy. True, there are many glaring deficiencies in our democracy. But the people of India have shown once again to the world that it is they who decide the fate of governments, parties and leaders in this country, and also that their verdict is accepted by one and all in the polity. India is not like China, where its communist rulers fear that free elections with multiple choices before the people would destabilise their nation. Nor are we like Thailand, where warring parties recently laid siege to the airport and parliament building. We are not like many other countries in Asia and the world where the sanctity of elections is contested, where leaders are jailed or banished, and where the military replaces the independent judiciary and the election commission. Undoubtedly, the renewed recognition that India, inspite of its bewildering diversities and problems, is unshakable in its commitment to democracy has raised its prestige globally. Even as a person belonging to the defeated party, I feel proud of this triumph of India’s democracy. Next. Congratulations to the Prime Minister, Sonia Gandhi and their party. They outsmarted the BJP in the electoral battle, which I believed along with many others outside my party, was ours to lose. The BJP snatched defeat out of the jaws of victory. The Congress did the opposite. A third prefatory point. In commenting on the causes that led to the BJP’s defeat, I cannot but say upfront that I too carry my share of responsibility. As one who was closely associated with the party’s election campaign, specifically the campaign of LK Advani, our prime ministerial candidate, I too committed mistakes. To be meaningful, productive and curative, collective introspection in the party must begin with each one individually. Collective responsibility is a laudable principle, but it can often become a mask for persons in key positions at the central and state levels to evade their individual responsibility. This has often happened in the BJP. The party must, therefore, conduct a rigorous and objective analysis of all the factors that led to its defeat, and this should be done with the participation of the largest possible number of party workers and supporters at various levels. Beneath the pervasive disappointment, the mood in the party is indeed introspective. After all, this is the second consecutive defeat for the BJP in its bid for power at the Centre. In 2004, it had lost after heading the government of the National Democratic Alliance for six years. The verdict of the people, hence, clearly meant that they wanted change. In 2009, after five years of largely dismal performance by the government of the Congress-led United Progressive Alliance, the BJP could not convince the voters that they should vote in favour of change. Rather, the truth is that the people wanted change but were not convinced that the BJP or the BJP-led NDA assured the kind of change they wanted. *REASONS FOR THE BJP DEFEAT IN 2009* The BJP’s failure to convince the people on this score is rooted in a combination of structural, political, ideological, organizational and campaign-related reasons. The party’s longstanding structural weakness is that although it has succeeded in bi-polarising India’s politics at the Centre, its geographical presence in the country is much narrower than that of the Congress. It won only one seat in four big states that together account for 143 out of the 543 seats in the Lok Sabha — West Bengal (42), Andhra Pradesh (42), Tamil Nadu (39) and Kerala (20). The Congress’ tally: 60 seats. Unless the BJP overcomes this structural weakness by increasing its own political and electoral strength in these big states, it can never emerge as an equal and durable alternative to the Congress nationally. The second reason was the failure of the BJP’s political strategy — in particular, its alliance strategy. A principal reason for the party’s success in forming the government, under the leadership of Atal Behari Vajpayee, in 1998 and 1999 was its ability to forge alliances, especially in three of the four afore-mentioned big states (Trinamool Congress in West Bengal; Telugu Desam Party in Andhra Pradesh; and first AIADMK and later DMK in Tamil Nadu). Its alliance with the Biju Janata Dal in Orissa (21 Lok Sabha seats) also proved to be extremely useful. In the aftermath of the 2004 defeat, many of our allies left the NDA. The main reason for their leaving was not that the NDA had been defeated, but their perception that the communal violence in Gujarat in 2002 was an important cause of the defeat and, hence, their conclusion that continuation of the alliance with the BJP would cost them Muslim votes. Between 2004 and 2009, the BJP did nothing to address this factor. As a result, it failed to win back a single ally in West Bengal, Andhra Pradesh and Tamil Nadu, or win a single ally in Kerala. Moreover, almost on the eve of the 2009 elections, the BJP actually lost an important ally in Orissa due to inept alliance management. It is true that, in the early months of 2009, the BJP forged three new alliances — with Asom Gana Parishad in Assam, Ajit Singh’s Rashtriya Lok Dal in UP, and Omprakash Chautala’s Indian National Lok Dal in Haryana. But these could not make up for the damage caused by the loss of our earlier alliances. In the absence of a cohesive and numerically strong alliance, the BJP could not assure the voters that it was in a position to form a stable government at the Centre. Hence, by default, the voters not only chose the Congress over the BJP but also gave it increased parliamentary strength to quench their own thirst for stability. *CONFUSION ABOUT HINDUTVA* Why did the BJP invite this weakness upon itself? The reason has to do with the widespread ideological confusion within the party over what the BJP’s advocacy of Hindutva actually means. The confusion has persisted for a long time, but it intensified after the defeat of the BJP/NDA in 2004. There was a strong view within a section of the party — and a much stronger and almost unanimous view within the larger Sangh Parivar — that the Vajpayee’s government was defeated because the BJP had “abandoned Hindutva”. The argument went like this: “In its bid to form the NDA government, the BJP kept aside its core ideological commitments on the construction of the Ram Temple in Ayodhya, the abrogation of Article 370 and the Uniform Civil Code. The Hindu voters, who had enabled the BJP to emerge as a strong force in Indian politics in the late 1980s and 1990s, felt let down by this. In 2004, the BJP again kept the Hindutva issues in cold storage and made development its main plank. This further disillusioned the Hindu voters. Their indifference led to the party’s defeat in 2004.” In the aftermath of the setback in 2009, many angry voices have again blamed the party leadership, Advani in particular, for the same reason — “You lost because you abandoned Hindutva.” It’s a deeply flawed view. It errs in believing that the BJP’s Hindu base is synonymous with the totality of Hindu voters. The fact is, Hindus never vote as a block for any particular party. There is only a small section of Hindus who have voted as Hindus for what they perceived as a pro-Hindu party — the Jana Sangh in the past and the BJP in later years. Their number increased dramatically in the late 1980s and early 1990s due to the Ayodhya movement, which, for about ten years, caught the imagination of a large section of the Hindu society. However, the BJP’s rising strength in the late 1990s was also on account of another important factor, which had nothing “Hindu” about it: the people’s desire to give the BJP also an opportunity to govern the country. This desire was further whetted by Vajpayee’s pan-Indian popularity, as was evident from the appeal of the slogan *“Sabko dekha baari baari, Ab ki baari Atal Behari”.* If the BJP’s electoral success in 1998 and 1999 was due to factors beyond what are narrowly seen as “Hindutva” issues, subsequent events have proved beyond a shadow of doubt that the party’s Hindu base is small even within Hindu society, not to speak of the electorate as a whole. This small Hindu base on its own can never bring the party to power at the Centre. Between 2004 and 2009, some people were toying with the idea of constructing a ‘Hindu Agenda’, and creating a large enough ‘Hindu Vote-Bank’ around it. Even the idea of establishing a new Hindu political organization, as a counter to the BJP, was being talked about. In the aftermath of the BJP’s defeat in the 2009 parliamentary elections, these ideas may get a new lease of life. They are doomed to fail. At a broader level, it is high time the BJP seriously debated and decided what it means by ‘Hindutva’, and also what formulations of ‘Hindutva’ are not acceptable to it. True, the BJP must remain an ideology-driven party. But without clarity on what the BJP’s ideology is, the party cannot win the support of more Hindus, let alone the support of Muslims and Christians. Understood as ‘Cultural Nationalism’ in an inclusive, integrative and noncommunal sense, Hindutva indeed defines the organizing and sustaining principle of the Indian Nation. However, just as the noble principle of secularism can be perverted and practiced for politically expedient reasons — the selfstyled ‘secular’ parties have indeed done it to isolate the BJP — Hindutva is also vulnerable to narrow interpretations and bigoted practice. My own understanding of Pandit Deendayal Upadhyaya’s ‘Integral Humanism’, which the BJP accepts as its guiding philosophy, convinces me that it completely rejects narrow, exclusivist and communal interpretations of India’s national identity. *FAILURE TO OVERCOME THE PARTY’S LIMITED SOCIAL BASE* Post-2004, many leaders in the BJP, Advani in particular, had come to the correct conclusion that the party faced twin tasks: (a) to nurse its core ideological/social constituency (which had felt let down for various reasons, including the valid reason of a lack of sufficient dialogue and coordination between the BJP leaders in the Vajpayee government and the leaders and activists of the Sangh Parivar at various levels); and (b) to expand the BJP’s appeal and support base beyond its core constituency, both on its own and by forging alliances. Sadly, between 2004 and 2009, the BJP leadership attended only to the first task and did very little to attend to the second. For example, even within the Hindu society, large sections (especially Dalits) have remained outside the influence of the BJP. No effort was made to endear the party to them. As far as taking the BJP closer to the minorities (Muslims and Christians) is concerned, both confusion and indifference within the party are of Himalayan magnitude. The mentality of a large section of the party is so dogmatic that any idea of promoting the welfare and development of Indian Muslims, or of addressing their legitimate concerns, is quickly brushed aside as “appeasement”. In five long years after 2004, the BJP did not come up with a single worthwhile initiative which Muslims could welcome. Take the example of the Sachar Committee report. No doubt, the Congress party, guided by its votebank politics, tried to appease the Muslim community with some dangerous and thoroughly condemnable pronouncements — reservation for Muslims on religious grounds and the Prime Minister’s shocking statement that Muslims should have the first claim on the country’s budgetary resources. But was everything about the Sachar Committee report or its recommendations objectionable? After all, by highlighting widespread socio-economic backwardness within the Muslim community, the report laid bare the successive Congress governments’ own failures and betrayals towards a community that has been its most loyal supporter. Sadly, the BJP rejected the Sachar report completely and unreservedly. The party could have responded to its findings and recommendations in a more nuanced manner by presenting some alternative proposals for addressing poverty and backwardness among Muslims. It didn’t do so because, as I have mentioned earlier, the party’s collective mind is suffering from a prolonged confusion about how to deal with issues relating to Indian Muslims. Those leaders who want to think and act innovatively know that they are prone to be quickly accused of following a “Muslim- appeasement” policy. The BJP’s Minority Morcha is a non-operational body, whose voice is heard neither within the party nor within the Muslim community. The entrenched thinking within the BJP is that “Muslims never vote for us and therefore there is no need to think or do anything for them.” The party gave tickets to only three Muslim candidates in the recent Lok Sabha elections. True, the party’s manifesto had some good points about minorities, but these could hardly change the image of the BJP as a party that does not care for Muslims. Purely in electoral terms, all this contributed to the BJP’s grievous self-disablement. Consider the following. The party has a near-zero presence in 143 Lok Sabha seats in four big states. On top of that, it practically writes off 15% of the electorate who are Muslims. In recent years, even Christians have turned against the BJP. Even within the Hindu society, the BJP’s support base is less than 25% nationally. Thus, both geographically and socially, the party’s electoral base is not strong enough to challenge the Congress. On top of all these, we had the Varun Gandhi episode in the middle of the election campaign, which, along with other factors, clearly led to the consolidation of Muslim votes in favour of the Congress in UP. *NEGATIVISM IN THE BJP’S CAMPAIGN* In hindsight, it is obvious that the BJP failed to utilize its five years in the opposition to construct and present a positive agenda that could catch the imagination of the people beyond its core support base. We harped too much on the UPA government’s failures, without convincing the people how we would perform better. The party rightly adopted ‘Good Governance, Development and Security’ as its plank for Elections 2009. However, none of these three ideals was intellectually fleshed out in terms of specific policies and programmatic initiatives, nor made the basis of a sustained mass campaign. The people, who were hardly enthused by the performance of the UPA government, were keen on knowing if the BJP had superior ideas on tackling the problems of price rise, unemployment, economic downturn, plight of farmers, etc. The middle class wanted to know if the BJP had better plans to address the shortage of housing, water and power, the problem of transportation, and the rising costs of education and healthcare. India’s young men and women were waiting to see if the BJP was capable of making them dream big and if it could connect to their own rising aspirations. Advani did speak of the *Ladli Laxami *Yojana for the education of the girl child, his infrastructure vision and his vision for ‘IT as an instrument for transforming *Bharat’.* But all this did not cohere into a sharply focused superior agenda of governance and development. On the issue of security, which was a BJP’s strong point, we fumbled on many occasions. Even the Congress party’s completely baseless criticism on the Kandahar episode put the BJP on the backfoot. On the whole, we did not dictate the agenda for Elections 2009. As a result, the media as well as a large number of uncommitted voters concluded that this was an ‘issue-less’ election. *LEADERSHIP IN DISARRAY* My last point in the analysis of the 2009 elections concerns the state of the BJP organization. Never in the history of the Jana Sangh or the BJP was the party enfeebled by so much disarray at the top. The disorder at the Centre and also in several states (examples: Rajasthan, UP and Delhi) demoralised the disunited party workers down the line, with disastrous results. Although Advani was projected as the party’s prime ministerial candidate, this took place after he had been dis-empowered after the Mohammad Ali Jinnah episode. The cropping up of Narendra Modi’s name in the middle of the campaign did not help at all. To the people of India, the contrast was obvious: there is unified command in the Congress party, but not in the BJP. Look at the irony. Sonia Gandhi and her son Rahul made an essentially weak Prime Minister like Dr Manmohan Singh look strong by backing him solidly. In contrast, the BJP and the Sangh Parivar made a strong leader like Advani, whose contribution to the growth of the party is enormous, look weak, helpless and not fully in command. Saddened by this, many dedicated party workers bemoaned, “Atalji succeeded in becoming Prime Minister because he had Advaniji working for him faithfully and determinedly. Unfortunately this time, there was no Advaniji working similarly for Advaniji.” Of course, it is also true that Advani himself failed to assert his leadership at crucial points before and during the campaign. *ROAD AHEAD* Where does the BJP go from here? The answer depends on how honest and widespread the introspection about the past and the future is within the BJP, and how thorough the corrective action in the near future will be. For this to happen, the party should encourage free debate, based on constructive criticism and self-criticism. But let it be understood both by the BJP’s supporters and adversaries the outcome of Elections 2009 is by no means a catastrophe for the party. True, our strength in the Lok Sabha came down from 182 in 1999 to 138 in 2004, and has further come down to 116 in 2009. But in defeat we should not lose a sense of balance and perspective. After all, in 1998, the Congress was reduced to a tally of only 110 in the Lok Sabha. Yet, six years later it bounced back. So can the BJP. Today the BJP is not only the main opposition party in the 15th Lok Sabha but, in some ways, the sole opposition party because the Left parties have been completely marginalized. What this means is that, whereas there is need for honest introspection, there is no need for despair at all. This is not to belittle the fact that difficult days are ahead for the BJP, at least in the short term. The Congress seems to be on the revival path in UP and Bihar. The support for the BJP is declining in its two strongholds — Madhya Pradesh and Gujarat. In Rajasthan and Delhi, the BJP has again scored self-goals. In Karnataka, in spite of the good showing in the recent Lok Sabha elections, the BJP and its government face many problems that demand immediate attention. As far as leadership is concerned, the party needs to address the challenges in the post-Advani era, while recognizing that it needs the guiding hand of *karmayogi* Advani — who embodies the best of the BJP — for as long as he can be active in public life. His message of ‘Good Governance, Development and Security’ has relevance for the BJP in the future too. However, the party has to infuse positive and inspiring content into this message, and the content has to become more visible in states where the BJP is in power. One of the most important learnings from the NDA government, as well as from the governments of Narendra Modi, Shivraj Singh Chauhan, Raman Singh and Nitish Kumar, is that inclusive development should become as important an element of the ideology for a Nation First party like the BJP as, for example, Hindutva. Here is a sensitive question that the BJP cannot shirk. Issues relating to the right relationship between the BJP and the RSS also need to be candidly debated for mutual good. The RSS is indeed a nationalist organization, and there are many valid reasons why India needs a non-communal pro- Hindu organization committed to the ideal of Hindu unity and renaissance. However, just as the BJP needs introspection, the RSS needs it no less. Its leaders must ask themselves, and answer the question honestly and earnestly, “Why is the acceptability of the RSS and the Vishwa Hindu Parishad limited in Hindu society itself?” No less important is the challenge of re-orienting the party’s thinking and action on issues relating to the suffering of the poor and the downtrodden, and the severe regional and social imbalances in India’s development. The BJP can indeed bounce back. But it can do so only if it first renews and empowers itself comprehensively — in its ideology, its geographical-social spread, its own political strength, its mass activity, its alliance-building, its cadre-based organizational network, and its leadership. *Kulkarni was a key aide to former Prime Minister Atal Behari Vajpayee and** a member of the BJP’s Election Strategy Group, 2009* _________________________________________ reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. Critiques & Collaborations To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with subscribe in the subject header. To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> From aliens at dataone.in Mon Jun 8 17:05:22 2009 From: aliens at dataone.in (bipin) Date: Mon, 08 Jun 2009 17:05:22 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Hindu article References: <006e01c9e751$89062ba0$0201a8c0@limo> <1f9180970906070400r2e988177uc885c0c642a43bef@mail.gmail.com> <00f001c9e80d$f11c4370$0201a8c0@limo> <341380d00906080125s159c119du6580b5df5c72ad43@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <000e01c9e82d$367f1400$0201a8c0@limo> Dear Anupam, Glad to know that you know very well and met professor Bandukwala. To quote someone's view heard on TV debate show open forum is as good as his own views only. I heard their views many times in shows like Mukabala, Big fight and similar shows and I have mentioned their reference. I don't want to discuss the election politics issue in Godhra. Since in my discussion every time what I have opposed is vote bank politics only which after independent congress played very well every time. All the party are now following the same. If you want to say that its Muslim area and so development is not there is rubbish argument. and if it true, in case of Godhra as you mentioned, responsible authorities like Municipal Commissioner and other authorized person should be punished. My point is to go for development only. I had been once in Godhra and visited signal falia area also during night time with family without any fear. So, the other area of Godhra also. What example you have cited for outskirts of Vadodara city is the story of not Vadodara, but almost all the outskirts areas of the Indian cities/towns. That way we lac in infrastructure and that we have to do first as the development. Even in Ahmedabad, my home town where I stay, eastern outskirts area remain undeveloped since many years. However, that area improved much now and developed with all the facilities like better roads, drainage, water supply. You are mentioning Modi's comment for Mumbai police commissioner "that too Muslim" but on what contest he has spoken. Make comment after going through full speech what he said and just don't get into only two datas. As you mentioned I am not big fan's Modi, but I am fan of development and whoever does it I appreciate it and become fan of it. Whether it is Manmohan Singh, Sheila Dikshit, Shivrajsinh Chauhan. I am opposing the exaggeration made in case of Gujarat riots. Without go into the root of it, one cannot assess the real things. If you go to the history, the real state sponsored riot was played during congress rule in Gujarat by Chiman Patel and Madhavsinh Solanki, where Hindu suffered a lot. But since the Hindu was suffered no hallabol, no exaggeration was made!!! Thanks for your guidance how to get in Vadodara. For your information, I am visiting frequently to Vadodara and visited almost all the areas. thanks Bipin ----- Original Message ----- From: "anupam chakravartty" To: "sarai list" Sent: Monday, June 08, 2009 1:55 PM Subject: Re: [Reader-list] Hindu article > Bipin, > > Professor J.S. Bandukwala's house was attacked and burnt down by rioters > in > 2002. He is not that sort of a man who will tell you that he is treated > like > a second class citizen. That man has more books and guts which i am sure > modi or maya kodnani wouldnt able to withstand. That man continues to > write > against Modi government's policies and its attitude towards muslims, > stands > for the helpless. I am 100% sure you havent met him or know anything about > him. > > secondly, godhra remains as divided as it was. there is a municipal > election > on april 21 in the town. The BJP leadership has clearly spelt out that > they > dont care about those 9000-10000 votes from the muslim community in the > town. signal faliya, 1.5 kilometres away from Godha railway station, > mostly > comprising of the muslims doesnt have roads connecting the houses. during > the rains, the whole of the area remains submerged. on the other side of > the > railway station a few hundred meters ahead modi on march 17 unveiled a > former IAF jet as a symbol of defence and security in the country > completely > turning a blind eye towards signal faliya or polan bazar in godhra where > most of the muslims stay. contesting the municipal elections would be > murli > moolchandani, a VHP member, who was caught in the tehelka sting. > > third, noorani mohalla and K G park, two rehabilitatee colonies comprising > of riot affected muslims even now doesnt have water supply or any kinds of > roads leading to the houses. it is on the outskirts of Vadodara on ajwa > road. please do check it out when you can. it is worse than a > concentration > camp with families trying to dirt clogging up the drains and water from > the > refuse collecting right front of the houses. two kilometers ahead there is > a > hospital for lepers -- the refuse from that hospital also comes and > gathers > in the area. mind you its on the Ajwa road of Vadodara city. > > third, ward no 3 of halol municipality. the councillor, saleem meer ended > his fast yesterday (sunday) because all this years that place did not have > a > water connection while waters of Narmada has reached other nine wards of > the > town. ask the municipal board president, Nitin Shah about why there is a > neglect, he will give you prompt reply saying that "ye to yaha ke nahi > hai". > > > fourth, since you are big fan of modi, you must have heard him. if he is > talking about a police officer in his speech especially when he referred > to > mumbai police chief, gafoor, after 26/11 attacks, he said started his > statement saying a police officer *that too a muslim. *his attitude > continues to anti-muslim save for some of his muslim followers from > Surat (always used a propaganda too erase the riots with a statement such > as > shias and vohras are with modi and sunnis are the ones who create > problems) who after the riots accompanied him everywhere because they had > specific business interests. > > i think you have absolutely no idea of Gujarat. And also gujarati people > do > not neccessarily treat muslim people badly, however, the political > establishment has planned out its policies in such a way that they are > reduced to second class citizens. however, there are sucess stories, own > will power such as Prof Bandukwala which is independent and praiseworthy > and > should not be read in the context of treating someone as first class or > second class citizen. you are offcourse free to have your opinion, but i > would invite you to come and look around here in Vadodara. you can reply > back on this space. i will guide you how you can get to vadodara. > > -anupam > On 6/8/09, bipin wrote: >> >> Dear Venugopalan, >> >> What happened in 2002 is very painful and full sympathy with those who >> died. Even in my earlier post, I have mentioned about this sad incidence. >> >> Refer the court findings and they scrolled Teesta in few occasions in >> Zahira case. I also of the opinion that those who are culprit must be >> punished and even Modi's involvement proved than also. Why I doubt Teesta >> working, since she never show her will to fight for the rights of Hindu, >> Sikh in Sikh riots, Kashmir Pundits in Kashmir, Bhagalpur victim, even >> she >> has not turned up in Nandigram, Singur. So how can one trust her >> neutrality? >> This is solid proof that she is working with guidance of their source of >> funds. >> >> What the Hindu article tells is general for Gujarat's Muslims treated as >> II >> class citizen is wrong. They are taking basis of about a lac (yet this is >> also doubtful figure) yet to return to their home (but why? no body has >> stopped them to return), the whole Gujarat Muslim community treated as II >> class citizen. Don't you think this is ridiculous? For a few part of >> community, you can not put generalize prediction for the community. The >> incidence happened before 7 years and few thousand don't return to their >> home and those whose homes has burned/destroyed, govt. has offered for >> rehabilitation way back but stopped by the wasted interest forces who >> wants >> to keep alive this issue forever! >> >> People of Gujarat (including Muslim community) has way back forgot this >> and >> started their routine work in very co-operative and friendly environment. >> Even leading Muslim figure/leader of Gujarat like Professor Bandukwala >> and >> many others has confirmed this way back and continue today telling in >> many >> open discussion forum. >> >> Mr. Venugopalan, I invite to come to Gujarat, I personally welcome you >> and >> take you to even Godhra where this incidence happened and see yourself >> whether you find any fear? Even I invite you with any of your Muslim >> friend >> to roam any part of Gujarat and verify yourself that anywhere Muslim is >> not >> at all treated as II class citizens. All the community stays in very >> harmony >> without any fear and grudges. >> >> Now what is going on is malicious propaganda against Gujarat and Gujarati >> community, nothing else. Whether you believe or not but this is hard >> truth. >> >> thanks >> Bipin >> >> ----- Original Message ----- >> From: Venugopalan K M >> To: sarai-list >> Sent: Sunday, June 07, 2009 4:30 PM >> Subject: Re: [Reader-list] Hindu article >> >> >> Dear Bipin, >> >> I'm afraid you are abusing he commonsense of everybody here. >> Why don't you dispute what is already given there on the basis of merit >> and substance? >> What do you mean by Chamchas of Teesta? >> And is what is so bad about Tessta and their "cottary"? >> >> About the Muslim citizens of Gujarat, again you arrogate to yourself >> the privilege of paassing a judgement! Of whom at least two thousand >> people >> were killed and over a lakh are reportedly yet to return to their homes >> since the organized crimes of post-Godhra 2002, if they are not being >> treated as second class citizens, are they being treated as >> non-citizens? >> Will you please check the truth for yourself rather than advising others >> to >> meet your Muslim friends in other states or to meet the 'aam Muslims' in >> Gujaratin your imagination? >> >> Or rather, do you mean that they are graciously being allowed by Modi to >> stay free of further fears of being targeted for killing and raping by >> Hindus? That case, you are wrong sir; instead, it is apparently because >> the >> killing hordes themselves had realized that Modi is not God to ensure >> them >> impunity and because they come to realize that Modi himself is under the >> shadow of trial under the IPC and the Cr PC for his culpability in what >> transpired after Godhra. >> >> >"they agree that their relatives are far happy and feel safety in >> >Gujarat" >> >> How cool! >> How strange of a people constituting about 1/5 th of the entire >> population >> confiding the secret to you being allowed to feel safe in their own lands >> and homes! >> >> Best, >> Venu. >> >> >> >> On Sun, Jun 7, 2009 at 2:52 PM, bipin wrote: >> >> Dear All, >> >> Who ever written this article HIndu is base less and far from truth. >> It >> is totally false that Muslims are treated as second class citizen in >> Gujarat. You ask any aam Muslim in Gujarat (don't ask chamcha's of Teesta >> and their cottary) and you will have truth. >> >> Even I have many net Muslim friends from other states and on >> discussion, >> they agreed that their relatives in Gujarat are far happy and feel safety >> in >> Gujarat >> >> thanks >> BIPIN >> _________________________________________ >> reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. >> Critiques & Collaborations >> To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with >> subscribe in the subject header. >> To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list >> List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> >> >> >> >> -- >> http://venukm.blogspot.com/ >> _________________________________________ >> reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. >> Critiques & Collaborations >> To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with >> subscribe in the subject header. >> To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list >> List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > subscribe in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> From rakesh.rnbdj at gmail.com Mon Jun 8 17:09:58 2009 From: rakesh.rnbdj at gmail.com (Rakesh Iyer) Date: Mon, 8 Jun 2009 17:09:58 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Fw: Re: i was stunned In-Reply-To: <7271ec560906080358t4d1168b3sb1cb75a6cc29e48d@mail.gmail.com> References: <289838.89194.qm@web94707.mail.in2.yahoo.com> <7271ec560906070101i18880411tc867de1d0f1f0c42@mail.gmail.com> <341380d00906070206m2e43d179nfcbaf10381f7f435@mail.gmail.com> <7271ec560906070534p1bb69f1eic74e539e861b27a9@mail.gmail.com> <341380d00906070547j49dbd943t248ae30045cd5e4f@mail.gmail.com> <7271ec560906080053i31ee3eb5hd2f529ce9345dfcb@mail.gmail.com> <1f9180970906080333r206da439pefcdd1847c8112e7@mail.gmail.com> <7271ec560906080355o5865886r5d6f16dc94f47ce1@mail.gmail.com> <7271ec560906080358t4d1168b3sb1cb75a6cc29e48d@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: Dear Rajen jee First of all, since you are asking to show a proof if anybody has of Modi's involvement in the post-Godhra violence in 2002 to the SIT, let me equally ask you if you have any proof of his non-involvement in the same as well. And if yes, please do give that to the SIT. Second. My perception that Modi has failed as a CM comes from numerous counts, and these are as follows: 1) The Modi govt. has differentiated between those burnt in Godhra and those killed in post Godhra violence. A state sponsored funeral was carried out for the Godhra victims, but nothing of that sort was done for those who died in the violence after that. Moreover, the compensations were also different in both the cases. Those who died in Godhra got more than those who died in the aftermath violence, whereas in the first case people were burnt, but in the second case there were women raped and killed, and many houses burnt. Even the sources of occupation were lost by many people, and many couldn't even return to the villages where they lived before. This is still the case today. 2) The Modi govt had the prime responsibility to ensure that after Godhra, the law and order situation did not deteriorate. One way of doing that is to arrest all possible troublemakers. The Maharashtra police, if I am not wrong, arrested about 9,000 such troublemakers on the day Godhra took place. The Gujarat police in turn arrested only 2-3 people. When Maharashtra police was expecting trouble after Godhra, was the Gujarat administration sleeping? 3) The Modi govt was probably sleeping, I may say, if Godhra took place without any intelligence information about the possibility of the same. At least one can say the Home Dept. in Gujarat was sleeping. Ditto can be said about the Centre too, for the NDA govt was in power then, also led by the BJP. Therefore, if Godhra was a case of train burning, then it was a case of intelligence failure both at the central and the state level. And the 'lauh purush' Advani was the then Home Minister. I wonder where was the strength of the 'lauh purush' and 'his chela' Modi then when all this happened. Modi ironically, has never apologized for Godhra taking place even once. Our Modi bhai was trying to justify the violence after the Godhra incident through the Newton's third law. I wonder what Newton would have felt on hearing this. 4) The police under his govt effectively failed to actually prevent violence. There were many cases when in police firing, only Muslims were killed, when ironically in the same areas, Muslims suffered both personal and economic losses! Was the police indulging in looting and massacres, or joined forces with goons and marauders to commit genocide? 5) The people who suffered in this violence after Godhra incident wait for justice. The police was clubbing cases of many people in the same FIR, which is against basic principle of law. Moreover, the main goons in each violence were never named in the FIR's, or their names were deleted. Many cases were closed by the police for 'lack of evidence'. Since when has the Gujarat police become the authority to decide whether evidence is there in a case or not? It's the responsibility of the police to investigate, and collect evidence, not pass judgements on closing cases due to lack of evidence. The authority for that purpose lies with the judiciary. 6) Mr. Modi didn't even have the sympathy to visit the relief camps once himself. The only time he did so was when Mr. Vajpayee came and asked him to observe 'rajdharma'. Of course, our Modi saheb didn't listen to this piece of advice from a senior of his own party, how can we expect him to listen to the rest of us at all? Interestingly, his administration wanted to shut down the relief camps in June and July 2002, to prove that things were returning to normal in Gujarat. This, at a time, when the villages from which people had to go away, refused to accept these people back because they were Muslims. In many cases, their properties were encroached upon by others in the village. And till now they haven't got justice. Is Mr. Modi listening? 7) The last thing is about Mr. Modi himself. Manmohan Singh has apologized for 1984 Delhi. Advani jee at least accepts in public that Babri Masjid demolition was unfortunate. Does Modi have the guts to apologize for both Godhra and post-Godhra violence taking place under his administration? He doesn't. Whenever asked about Godhra and its aftermath, his response is to go away (Remember Devil's advocate show when he asked Karan Thapar to stop the show?). This is the man who is probably the next PM candidate of the BJP come 2014. He can't even ensure the police under him functions properly and registers cases and investigates them properly. If he doesn't have the guts to answer questions or control the police under him, what guts will he have to take on the Taliban if required tomorrow? 8) Going away from 2002, this is my final point. Modi is always the 'model CM' for the corporates? But ironically, the poverty alleviation has stopped in Gujarat under Modi's rule. Health and education sectors aren't doing well. Moreover, the space for democratic dissent has been hijacked by the BJP, which doesn't allow normal people to even organize protests against the govt. The farmers in Gujarat who were under BKS, got a taste of it when protesting on the issue of power and electricity rates. The Anhad activists got a taste of it when campaigning against L K Advani from the Gandhinagar seat. Is this the developmental model citizens refer to? Road construction and setting up more industries alone is not development. That is why I asked members of this forum to at least debate on what is development. I still request others to at least put across their views. After all if we can discuss on definitions of secularism, can't we discuss the definition of development? As for the Congress, or the Left, or any other party, I don't support any party. For me, I believe in supporting policies. I support the policy of NREGA introduced by the Congress, backed by pro-Leftist and pro-socialist groups. I equally support the NHDP and the Golden Quadrilateral project introduced by the Congress and the BJP respectively. But that does not mean I support the Congress or the BJP or even the Left. And I would request all of us here to do the same. Otherwise we will simply be caught in party politics, and that is not going to help the people. Regards Rakesh From kmvenuannur at gmail.com Mon Jun 8 17:27:09 2009 From: kmvenuannur at gmail.com (Venugopalan K M) Date: Mon, 8 Jun 2009 17:27:09 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Hindu article In-Reply-To: <003a01c9e820$23111790$0201a8c0@limo> References: <006e01c9e751$89062ba0$0201a8c0@limo> <1f9180970906070400r2e988177uc885c0c642a43bef@mail.gmail.com> <00f001c9e80d$f11c4370$0201a8c0@limo> <1f9180970906080224t40be33c8ld8d08c11874d5762@mail.gmail.com> <003a01c9e820$23111790$0201a8c0@limo> Message-ID: <1f9180970906080457r70aa67e9s39b9365933e196e4@mail.gmail.com> Dear Bipin, It is not just that Teesta did get the( well deserved) international recognition, but also that Modi brought shame to the entire country ; Modi was denied a visa to enter the US; successful campaigns like Stop Funding Hate were run by the diaspora in America, etc, etc are might be recalled. It was also shown to the world that each Hindu.is not necessarily a sympathizer of Hintutva ;that the truth is far from it ,and even contrary to what is projected by the global big media; that Hindutwa actually does enjoy only the support of a miniscule section of Hindus Regards, Venu On Mon, Jun 8, 2009 at 3:31 PM, bipin wrote: > That's true! Teesta has raised her voice only for Gujarat carnage and got > international reputation what she wanted. that's all. This is the only > criteria to judge a persons about the things they does praiseworthy!!! > > ----- Original Message ----- > *From:* Venugopalan K M > *To:* sarai-list > *Cc:* bipin > *Sent:* Monday, June 08, 2009 2:54 PM > *Subject:* Re: [Reader-list] Hindu article > > Dear Bipin, > > >Why I doubt Teesta working, since she never show her will to fight for the > rights of Hindu, Sikh in Sikh riots ,Kashmir Pundits in Kashmir, Bhagalpur > victim, even she has not turned up in Nandigram, Singur. So how can one > trust her neutrality? This is solid proof that she is working with guidance > of their source of funds... > > Sounds strange! > We were talking about Teesta's specific role in taking up many cases of > organized violence perpetrated against a section of citizens by another > section, which were also actively abeted by the Gujarat state administration > by means of its several commissions and serious omissions.This has > absolutely nothing to do with Teesta's not voicing her concerns about > victims of violence elsewhere.Teesta is not a God incarnated to punish all > those devils in Kashmir and Punjab,and Delhi!Perhaps we give less attention > to what she did not do than what she really did to bring to book the > culprits of Gujarat carnage and violence. > Certainly, many of us here are more concerned with the culpable deeds of > Modi administration ,like virtually declaring a lawless goonda raj against > the Muslim population of Gujarat during those dreadful days of 2002. > If at all the Zahira case and other cases related to the state violence > exist as a serious criminal case ,it is thanks to lot of commendable work > done by human rights activists like Teesta. I would not object even > accepting overseas funds by her as long as the funding is legally valid. > Regarding the court comments, I am not that woried. Didn't the SC opine in > Afsal case like "that the collective conscience of the Nation demands > awarding capital punishment to Afsal even in the context of lack of evidence > that would have otherwise been necessary in proving the charges? > Regards, > Venu > > > > On Mon, Jun 8, 2009 at 1:18 PM, bipin wrote: > >> Dear Venugopalan, >> >> What happened in 2002 is very painful and full sympathy with those who >> died. Even in my earlier post, I have mentioned about this sad incidence. >> >> Refer the court findings and they scrolled Teesta in few occasions in >> Zahira case. I also of the opinion that those who are culprit must be >> punished and even Modi's involvement proved than also. Why I doubt Teesta >> working, since she never show her will to fight for the rights of Hindu, >> Sikh in Sikh riots, Kashmir Pundits in Kashmir, Bhagalpur victim, even she >> has not turned up in Nandigram, Singur. So how can one trust her neutrality? >> This is solid proof that she is working with guidance of their source of >> funds. >> >> What the Hindu article tells is general for Gujarat's Muslims treated as >> II class citizen is wrong. They are taking basis of about a lac (yet this is >> also doubtful figure) yet to return to their home (but why? no body has >> stopped them to return), the whole Gujarat Muslim community treated as II >> class citizen. Don't you think this is ridiculous? For a few part of >> community, you can not put generalize prediction for the community. The >> incidence happened before 7 years and few thousand don't return to their >> home and those whose homes has burned/destroyed, govt. has offered for >> rehabilitation way back but stopped by the wasted interest forces who wants >> to keep alive this issue forever! >> >> People of Gujarat (including Muslim community) has way back forgot this >> and started their routine work in very co-operative and friendly >> environment. Even leading Muslim figure/leader of Gujarat like Professor >> Bandukwala and many others has confirmed this way back and continue >> today telling in many open discussion forum. >> >> Mr. Venugopalan, I invite to come to Gujarat, I personally welcome you and >> take you to even Godhra where this incidence happened and see yourself >> whether you find any fear? Even I invite you with any of your Muslim friend >> to roam any part of Gujarat and verify yourself that anywhere Muslim is not >> at all treated as II class citizens. All the community stays in very harmony >> without any fear and grudges. >> >> Now what is going on is malicious propaganda against Gujarat and Gujarati >> community, nothing else. Whether you believe or not but this is hard truth. >> >> thanks >> Bipin >> >> >> ----- Original Message ----- >> *From:* Venugopalan K M >> *To:* sarai-list >> *Sent:* Sunday, June 07, 2009 4:30 PM >> *Subject:* Re: [Reader-list] Hindu article >> >> Dear Bipin, >> >> I'm afraid you are abusing he commonsense of everybody here. >> Why don't you dispute what is already given there on the basis of merit >> and substance? >> What do you mean by Chamchas of Teesta? >> And is what is so bad about Tessta and their "cottary"? >> >> About the Muslim citizens of Gujarat, again you arrogate to yourself >> the privilege of paassing a judgement! Of whom at least two thousand people >> were killed and over a lakh are reportedly yet to return to their homes >> since the organized crimes of post-Godhra 2002, if they are not being >> treated as second class citizens, are they being treated as non-citizens? >> Will you please check the truth for yourself rather than advising others >> to meet your Muslim friends in other states or to meet the 'aam Muslims' in >> Gujaratin your imagination? >> >> Or rather, do you mean that they are graciously being allowed by Modi to >> stay free of further fears of being targeted for killing and raping by >> Hindus? That case, you are wrong sir; instead, it is apparently because the >> killing hordes themselves had realized that Modi is not God to ensure them >> impunity and because they come to realize that Modi himself is under the >> shadow of trial under the IPC and the Cr PC for his culpability in what >> transpired after Godhra. >> >> >"they agree that their relatives are far happy and feel safety in >> Gujarat" >> >> How cool! >> How strange of a people constituting about 1/5 th of the entire population >> confiding the secret to you being allowed to feel safe in their own lands >> and homes! >> >> Best, >> Venu. >> >> >> On Sun, Jun 7, 2009 at 2:52 PM, bipin wrote: >> >>> Dear All, >>> >>> Who ever written this article HIndu is base less and far from truth. It >>> is totally false that Muslims are treated as second class citizen in >>> Gujarat. You ask any aam Muslim in Gujarat (don't ask chamcha's of Teesta >>> and their cottary) and you will have truth. >>> >>> Even I have many net Muslim friends from other states and on discussion, >>> they agreed that their relatives in Gujarat are far happy and feel safety in >>> Gujarat >>> >>> thanks >>> BIPIN >>> _________________________________________ >>> reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. >>> Critiques & Collaborations >>> To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with >>> subscribe in the subject header. >>> To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list >>> List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> >> >> >> >> >> -- >> http://venukm.blogspot.com/ >> >> > > > -- > http://venukm.blogspot.com/ > > -- http://venukm.blogspot.com/ From c.anupam at gmail.com Mon Jun 8 17:40:47 2009 From: c.anupam at gmail.com (anupam chakravartty) Date: Mon, 8 Jun 2009 17:40:47 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Hindu article In-Reply-To: <000e01c9e82d$367f1400$0201a8c0@limo> References: <006e01c9e751$89062ba0$0201a8c0@limo> <1f9180970906070400r2e988177uc885c0c642a43bef@mail.gmail.com> <00f001c9e80d$f11c4370$0201a8c0@limo> <341380d00906080125s159c119du6580b5df5c72ad43@mail.gmail.com> <000e01c9e82d$367f1400$0201a8c0@limo> Message-ID: <341380d00906080510t749be918v73a29b7fd2151481@mail.gmail.com> dear bipin, im not talking about visiting signal faliya with a sense of fear or ecstacy or any other feeling for that matter. you may have visited at night, which is why you did not see what that area has been turned into. i think you are blabbering absolute trash here, so there is no point arguing with you. i think with your shallow understanding of indian politics no argument is possible because one hand you are saying that gujaratis are not communal while, you accused Chimanbhai and Madhavsinh of communal rioting ...that too against hindus. how misinformed ignorant can someone -- you are just the best example. i urge to stop attending tv shows, meet people since you are so bothered about change and other such things. i dont know which kind of development you talk about without even answering fundamental questions being posed at you. you couldnt say anything about noorani mohalla nor your arguments addresed thousands of missing people in gujarat after the riots. also, i think you will really enjoy it when someone would make fun of your religion, make mockery of it because as you have pointed out its an exaggeration about muslims being treated as second class citizens. so i think you are also exaggerating on other occasions when you point out plight of kashmiri pandits. even as, people like modi from 2001 to 2009 kept on using derogatory phrases against muslims in the public meeting. - anupam On 6/8/09, bipin wrote: > Dear Anupam, > > Glad to know that you know very well and met professor Bandukwala. To quote > someone's view heard on TV debate show open forum is as good as his own > views only. I heard their views many times in shows like Mukabala, Big fight > and similar shows and I have mentioned their reference. > > I don't want to discuss the election politics issue in Godhra. Since in my > discussion every time what I have opposed is vote bank politics only which > after independent congress played very well every time. All the party are > now following the same. If you want to say that its Muslim area and so > development is not there is rubbish argument. and if it true, in case of > Godhra as you mentioned, responsible authorities like Municipal Commissioner > and other authorized person should be punished. My point is to go for > development only. I had been once in Godhra and visited signal falia area > also during night time with family without any fear. So, the other area of > Godhra also. > > What example you have cited for outskirts of Vadodara city is the story of > not Vadodara, but almost all the outskirts areas of the Indian cities/towns. > That way we lac in infrastructure and that we have to do first as the > development. Even in Ahmedabad, my home town where I stay, eastern outskirts > area remain undeveloped since many years. However, that area improved much > now and developed with all the facilities like better roads, drainage, water > supply. > > You are mentioning Modi's comment for Mumbai police commissioner "that too > Muslim" but on what contest he has spoken. Make comment after going through > full speech what he said and just don't get into only two datas. As you > mentioned I am not big fan's Modi, but I am fan of development and whoever > does it I appreciate it and become fan of it. Whether it is Manmohan Singh, > Sheila Dikshit, Shivrajsinh Chauhan. > > I am opposing the exaggeration made in case of Gujarat riots. Without go > into the root of it, one cannot assess the real things. If you go to the > history, the real state sponsored riot was played during congress rule in > Gujarat by Chiman Patel and Madhavsinh Solanki, where Hindu suffered a lot. > But since the Hindu was suffered no hallabol, no exaggeration was made!!! > > Thanks for your guidance how to get in Vadodara. For your information, I am > visiting frequently to Vadodara and visited almost all the areas. > > thanks > Bipin > > ----- Original Message ----- From: "anupam chakravartty" < > c.anupam at gmail.com> > To: "sarai list" > Sent: Monday, June 08, 2009 1:55 PM > Subject: Re: [Reader-list] Hindu article > > > Bipin, >> >> Professor J.S. Bandukwala's house was attacked and burnt down by rioters >> in >> 2002. He is not that sort of a man who will tell you that he is treated >> like >> a second class citizen. That man has more books and guts which i am sure >> modi or maya kodnani wouldnt able to withstand. That man continues to >> write >> against Modi government's policies and its attitude towards muslims, >> stands >> for the helpless. I am 100% sure you havent met him or know anything about >> him. >> >> secondly, godhra remains as divided as it was. there is a municipal >> election >> on april 21 in the town. The BJP leadership has clearly spelt out that >> they >> dont care about those 9000-10000 votes from the muslim community in the >> town. signal faliya, 1.5 kilometres away from Godha railway station, >> mostly >> comprising of the muslims doesnt have roads connecting the houses. during >> the rains, the whole of the area remains submerged. on the other side of >> the >> railway station a few hundred meters ahead modi on march 17 unveiled a >> former IAF jet as a symbol of defence and security in the country >> completely >> turning a blind eye towards signal faliya or polan bazar in godhra where >> most of the muslims stay. contesting the municipal elections would be >> murli >> moolchandani, a VHP member, who was caught in the tehelka sting. >> >> third, noorani mohalla and K G park, two rehabilitatee colonies comprising >> of riot affected muslims even now doesnt have water supply or any kinds of >> roads leading to the houses. it is on the outskirts of Vadodara on ajwa >> road. please do check it out when you can. it is worse than a >> concentration >> camp with families trying to dirt clogging up the drains and water from >> the >> refuse collecting right front of the houses. two kilometers ahead there is >> a >> hospital for lepers -- the refuse from that hospital also comes and >> gathers >> in the area. mind you its on the Ajwa road of Vadodara city. >> >> third, ward no 3 of halol municipality. the councillor, saleem meer ended >> his fast yesterday (sunday) because all this years that place did not have >> a >> water connection while waters of Narmada has reached other nine wards of >> the >> town. ask the municipal board president, Nitin Shah about why there is a >> neglect, he will give you prompt reply saying that "ye to yaha ke nahi >> hai". >> >> >> fourth, since you are big fan of modi, you must have heard him. if he is >> talking about a police officer in his speech especially when he referred >> to >> mumbai police chief, gafoor, after 26/11 attacks, he said started his >> statement saying a police officer *that too a muslim. *his attitude >> continues to anti-muslim save for some of his muslim followers from >> Surat (always used a propaganda too erase the riots with a statement such >> as >> shias and vohras are with modi and sunnis are the ones who create >> problems) who after the riots accompanied him everywhere because they had >> specific business interests. >> >> i think you have absolutely no idea of Gujarat. And also gujarati people >> do >> not neccessarily treat muslim people badly, however, the political >> establishment has planned out its policies in such a way that they are >> reduced to second class citizens. however, there are sucess stories, own >> will power such as Prof Bandukwala which is independent and praiseworthy >> and >> should not be read in the context of treating someone as first class or >> second class citizen. you are offcourse free to have your opinion, but i >> would invite you to come and look around here in Vadodara. you can reply >> back on this space. i will guide you how you can get to vadodara. >> >> -anupam >> On 6/8/09, bipin wrote: >> >>> >>> Dear Venugopalan, >>> >>> What happened in 2002 is very painful and full sympathy with those who >>> died. Even in my earlier post, I have mentioned about this sad incidence. >>> >>> Refer the court findings and they scrolled Teesta in few occasions in >>> Zahira case. I also of the opinion that those who are culprit must be >>> punished and even Modi's involvement proved than also. Why I doubt Teesta >>> working, since she never show her will to fight for the rights of Hindu, >>> Sikh in Sikh riots, Kashmir Pundits in Kashmir, Bhagalpur victim, even >>> she >>> has not turned up in Nandigram, Singur. So how can one trust her >>> neutrality? >>> This is solid proof that she is working with guidance of their source of >>> funds. >>> >>> What the Hindu article tells is general for Gujarat's Muslims treated as >>> II >>> class citizen is wrong. They are taking basis of about a lac (yet this is >>> also doubtful figure) yet to return to their home (but why? no body has >>> stopped them to return), the whole Gujarat Muslim community treated as II >>> class citizen. Don't you think this is ridiculous? For a few part of >>> community, you can not put generalize prediction for the community. The >>> incidence happened before 7 years and few thousand don't return to their >>> home and those whose homes has burned/destroyed, govt. has offered for >>> rehabilitation way back but stopped by the wasted interest forces who >>> wants >>> to keep alive this issue forever! >>> >>> People of Gujarat (including Muslim community) has way back forgot this >>> and >>> started their routine work in very co-operative and friendly environment. >>> Even leading Muslim figure/leader of Gujarat like Professor Bandukwala >>> and >>> many others has confirmed this way back and continue today telling in >>> many >>> open discussion forum. >>> >>> Mr. Venugopalan, I invite to come to Gujarat, I personally welcome you >>> and >>> take you to even Godhra where this incidence happened and see yourself >>> whether you find any fear? Even I invite you with any of your Muslim >>> friend >>> to roam any part of Gujarat and verify yourself that anywhere Muslim is >>> not >>> at all treated as II class citizens. All the community stays in very >>> harmony >>> without any fear and grudges. >>> >>> Now what is going on is malicious propaganda against Gujarat and Gujarati >>> community, nothing else. Whether you believe or not but this is hard >>> truth. >>> >>> thanks >>> Bipin >>> >>> ----- Original Message ----- >>> From: Venugopalan K M >>> To: sarai-list >>> Sent: Sunday, June 07, 2009 4:30 PM >>> Subject: Re: [Reader-list] Hindu article >>> >>> >>> Dear Bipin, >>> >>> I'm afraid you are abusing he commonsense of everybody here. >>> Why don't you dispute what is already given there on the basis of merit >>> and substance? >>> What do you mean by Chamchas of Teesta? >>> And is what is so bad about Tessta and their "cottary"? >>> >>> About the Muslim citizens of Gujarat, again you arrogate to yourself >>> the privilege of paassing a judgement! Of whom at least two thousand >>> people >>> were killed and over a lakh are reportedly yet to return to their homes >>> since the organized crimes of post-Godhra 2002, if they are not being >>> treated as second class citizens, are they being treated as >>> non-citizens? >>> Will you please check the truth for yourself rather than advising others >>> to >>> meet your Muslim friends in other states or to meet the 'aam Muslims' in >>> Gujaratin your imagination? >>> >>> Or rather, do you mean that they are graciously being allowed by Modi to >>> stay free of further fears of being targeted for killing and raping by >>> Hindus? That case, you are wrong sir; instead, it is apparently because >>> the >>> killing hordes themselves had realized that Modi is not God to ensure >>> them >>> impunity and because they come to realize that Modi himself is under the >>> shadow of trial under the IPC and the Cr PC for his culpability in what >>> transpired after Godhra. >>> >>> >"they agree that their relatives are far happy and feel safety in >>> >Gujarat" >>> >>> How cool! >>> How strange of a people constituting about 1/5 th of the entire >>> population >>> confiding the secret to you being allowed to feel safe in their own lands >>> and homes! >>> >>> Best, >>> Venu. >>> >>> >>> >>> On Sun, Jun 7, 2009 at 2:52 PM, bipin wrote: >>> >>> Dear All, >>> >>> Who ever written this article HIndu is base less and far from truth. It >>> is totally false that Muslims are treated as second class citizen in >>> Gujarat. You ask any aam Muslim in Gujarat (don't ask chamcha's of Teesta >>> and their cottary) and you will have truth. >>> >>> Even I have many net Muslim friends from other states and on >>> discussion, >>> they agreed that their relatives in Gujarat are far happy and feel safety >>> in >>> Gujarat >>> >>> thanks >>> BIPIN >>> _________________________________________ >>> reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. >>> Critiques & Collaborations >>> To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with >>> subscribe in the subject header. >>> To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list >>> List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> >>> >>> >>> >>> -- >>> http://venukm.blogspot.com/ >>> _________________________________________ >>> reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. >>> Critiques & Collaborations >>> To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with >>> subscribe in the subject header. >>> To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list >>> List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> >>> >> _________________________________________ >> reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. >> Critiques & Collaborations >> To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with >> subscribe in the subject header. >> To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list >> List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> >> > > From vedavati_jogi at yahoo.com Mon Jun 8 18:51:07 2009 From: vedavati_jogi at yahoo.com (Vedavati Jogi) Date: Mon, 8 Jun 2009 18:51:07 +0530 (IST) Subject: [Reader-list] "Separatist leader quits on Facebook" (Sajjad Lone of Kashmir) Message-ID: <460844.945.qm@web94713.mail.in2.yahoo.com> why should indian authorities pamper an antinational separatist ? his place is in pakistan   vedavati --- On Sun, 7/6/09, Inder Salim wrote: From: Inder Salim Subject: Re: [Reader-list] "Separatist leader quits on Facebook" (Sajjad Lone of Kashmir) To: "reader-list" Date: Sunday, 7 June, 2009, 9:57 PM The couple has not been able to meet for a long time now. Lone’s wife and two sons have been denied visas by Indian authorities. This Visa thing can do may horrible things....... should never have been denied, should be granted immediately is On Sun, Jun 7, 2009 at 5:27 PM, Kshmendra Kaul wrote: > Peerzada Ashiq, Hindustan Times > > New Delhi, June 03, 2009 > > > "Separatist leader quits on Facebook" > > After witnessing divorces, marriages, link-ups and social campaigns, social networking website Facebook is providing space to fallen politicians too.. > > > The site is being used to announce political sanyas (renunciation). > > And the first one to announce his is the lone separatist leader from the Kashmir Valley who decided to make a U-turn on his 22 years of separatism to participate in the recently concluded Lok Sabha elections. > > Sajjad Lone had sought to justify his decision by saying he would use the floor of Parliament to espouse “the Kashmir cause”. Separatists have always questioned the legitimacy of elections in Jammu and Kashmir and urged people to boycott them. But Lone, in a bold departure, chose to contest the polls. > > He became the first high-profile separatist to do so but was defeated from Baramullah, ranking third. > > Lone (42), son of slain separatist leader Abdul Ghani Lone, has now hinted at ending his political life in a reply to his wife Asma Lone’s Facebook message. > > Asma, daughter of Jammu and Kashmir Liberation Front (JKLF) chairman Amanullah Khan, lives in Pakistan. The couple has not been able to meet for a long time now. Lone’s wife and two sons have been denied visas by Indian authorities. > > “I wish everybody else understood the complexities of my situation as you (Asma) do. I will always feel passionately for Kashmiris. But I don't think I can espouse any cause any more,” writes Lone in reply to his wife’s emotional message. > > An emotional and dejected Lone adds: “I think it is the end of the road for me. I want to spend time with you and with Emad and Adnan.” Emad and Adnan are Lone’s sons. > > Since his defeat, Lone has not spoken to the media. He hasn't even met his close friends in Srinagar or commented on his poll debacle. > > http://www.hindustantimes.com/StoryPage/StoryPage.aspx?sectionName=HomePage&id=f24a4a7e-14fd-4aaa-bcbd-7c5483ff3188&Headline=Separatist+leader+quits+on+Facebook > > http://www.hindustantimes.com/StoryPage/Print.aspx?Id=f24a4a7e-14fd-4aaa-bcbd-7c5483ff3188 > > > > > > > > > > > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with subscribe in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: -- http://indersalim.livejournal.com _________________________________________ reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. Critiques & Collaborations To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with subscribe in the subject header. To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> Cricket on your mind? Visit the ultimate cricket website. Enter now! Bollywood news, movie reviews, film trailers and more! Go to http://in.movies.yahoo.com/ From vedavati_jogi at yahoo.com Mon Jun 8 19:07:18 2009 From: vedavati_jogi at yahoo.com (Vedavati Jogi) Date: Mon, 8 Jun 2009 19:07:18 +0530 (IST) Subject: [Reader-list] Fw: Re: i was stunned Message-ID: <683717.23784.qm@web94716.mail.in2.yahoo.com> i don't speak for hindus, i care for my nation! this  socalled  philosophy of secularism and liberalism is dividing the nation and disarming hindus and i can't see my country being partitioned again .   once balasaheb thakare had said, if pakistan wants kashmir (because kashmir is a muslim majority state) then they will have to accept 20 crore muslim refugees from india too.   i support this statement.   vedavati --- On Sun, 7/6/09, Venugopalan K M wrote: From: Venugopalan K M Subject: Re: [Reader-list] Fw: Re: i was stunned To: "sarai-list" Date: Sunday, 7 June, 2009, 3:38 PM Ignorance may be bliss; arrogance might be bliss as well, at least until someone gets held up for rash assumptions on others.. However, certain manifestations of ignorance plus arrogance are better to be left as they are; I believe that will be healthy for people on both sides of the divide.. Feel no temptation to dispute the contents here; but who are you to speak for the entire Hindus in India,any way? Peace and love, Venu. On Sun, Jun 7, 2009 at 11:12 AM, Vedavati Jogi wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > good -that israel govt did not listen to you and returned socalled occupied > territories to palestinians. i never knew that there are pseudo seculars in > israel too (like india) > > you feel govt. of india should give autonomy to kashmir, are you aware that > kashmiri hindus have been thrown out of kashmir? > do you find muslims so trustworthy that in autonomous, muslims dominated > state hindus can remain safe? > > whole pakistan is a muslim occupied india, are you aware of that? > >  vedavati > > --- On Sun, 7/6/09, Alex Stein wrote: > > > From: Alex Stein > Subject: Re: i was stunned > To: "Vedavati Jogi" > Date: Sunday, 7 June, 2009, 2:58 AM > > > > > > > > 1. I think we should return the Occupied Territories (West Bank, Gaza, East > Jerusalem) to the Palestinian people. > > 2. I never said I speak for Kashmir. > > 3. I think the valley should be autonomous (nobody should be removed from > their homes). > > 4. That is for you and Pakistan to decide over the course - hopefully one > day - of peace negotiations. > > A > > > falsedichotomies.com > > "The most radical and the only secure form of possession is destruction, > for only what we have destroyed is safely and forever ours." Hannah Arendt > > > > --- On Sat, 6/6/09, Vedavati Jogi wrote: > > > From: Vedavati Jogi > Subject: Re: i was stunned > To: "Alex Stein" > Date: Saturday, 6 June, 2009, 7:38 PM > > > > > > > > hello alex, > 1) will you give part of your country to any other nation? > 2) who has given you right to speak for kashmir? > 3) if kashmir is given to muslims what about those hindus who have been > living there since last thousand years? > 4) will you dare to tell pakistan to give our land back? > vedavati > > --- On Sun, 7/6/09, Alex Stein wrote: > > > From: Alex Stein > Subject: Re: i was stunned > To: "Vedavati Jogi" > Date: Sunday, 7 June, 2009, 2:27 AM > > > > > > > > Hi Vedavti, > Thanks for your email. > We are not standing in opposition to Hindus. I deeply love India, its > culture and its people. I believe, though, that the Kashmir people have a > right to self-determination, just like anyone else, and I believe that it is > in India's interest to grant it to them, at least when the time is right. > Best wishes, > Alex Stein > > PS - you may be interested in my blog of my travels in India last summer - > wanderingsatlan.blogspot.com > > > falsedichotomies.com > > "The most radical and the only secure form of possession is destruction, > for only what we have destroyed is safely and forever ours." Hannah Arendt > > > > --- On Fri, 5/6/09, Vedavati Jogi wrote: > > > From: Vedavati Jogi > Subject: i was stunned > To: alex.stein at talk21.com > Date: Friday, 5 June, 2009, 7:10 AM > > > > > > > > hello sir, > > i went thru. your article about 'jeuish-kashmiri dialogue group > honestly i was stunned. > i believe you have been told absoluetly wrong history. > >  do you know how much these kashmiri hindus have suffered at the hands of > muslims in kashmir? > > hindusthan is the only country which gave shelter to people of your > religion whole heartedly that was because hindusthan is a hindu dominated > country. > i really wonder how can you try to befriend muslims, basically how can you > trust them? have you people not suffered at the hands of muslims? > have you not heard about 'muslim brotherhood'? > rightnow, you may think that muslims in kashmir were friendly with you > hence they are nice. but are you sure that when you fight with other muslim > countries, these same kashmiri friends of yours will support you against the > latter? > > i sincerely feel, hindus, and not muslims  can be your natural allies. > > vedavati > india > > > Own a website.Get an unlimited package.Pay next to nothing.* Click here!. > > > > Explore and discover exciting holidays and getaways with Yahoo! India > Travel Click here! > > > > Explore and discover exciting holidays and getaways with Yahoo! India > Travel Click here! > > >      Explore and discover exciting holidays and getaways with Yahoo! India > Travel http://in.travel.yahoo.com/ > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > subscribe in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: -- http://venukm.blogspot.com/ _________________________________________ reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. Critiques & Collaborations To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with subscribe in the subject header. To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> Cricket on your mind? Visit the ultimate cricket website. Enter http://beta.cricket.yahoo.com From indersalim at gmail.com Mon Jun 8 21:12:33 2009 From: indersalim at gmail.com (Inder Salim) Date: Mon, 8 Jun 2009 21:12:33 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] A living legend of Indian Theater died today, or... Message-ID: <47e122a70906080842i65157e8fpc3d8981ad84d5d96@mail.gmail.com> Look who died today. They say his name is Habib Tanvir. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Habib_Tanvir Ah, I have seen him: a charming personality, his smoking pipe, his sound, and his gentle probing set of eyes . It is a great feeling that i have seen this man called Habib Tanvir, attended his few lectures. It is great feeling in me that i have seen his few productions including Agra Bazar. He was certainly a legend during his life time, and it is not surprising that lot of press is full of obituaries. But has he died today? He ceased when he ceased to direct his plays, or in his mind the act was still going on ? In Art the death is just another event, and In life, the theater is just another mask. Is it ? How to celebrate Habib Tanvir, or the concept of Theater, both folk and contemporary in the present? what is that that which separates Life from Theater? and how much of theater is woven in the living of each one of us? How much artificiality is embedded in theater, and how to measure the distance between theater and reality, and what about the distance between the audience and the player on the stage ? i see his death an opportunity to read different different reflections on the subject: Habir Tanvir his theater, and that theater and that life which moves with times hand in hand. with love is -- http://indersalim.livejournal.com From kmvenuannur at gmail.com Mon Jun 8 23:17:18 2009 From: kmvenuannur at gmail.com (Venugopalan K M) Date: Mon, 8 Jun 2009 23:17:18 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Fw: Re: i was stunned In-Reply-To: <683717.23784.qm@web94716.mail.in2.yahoo.com> References: <683717.23784.qm@web94716.mail.in2.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <1f9180970906081047j252e1c0bk6321f84bfbe57d96@mail.gmail.com> Dear Vedavati Jogi, Who is Mr.Takre to say that 20 crore Muslim refugees will be sent from India, whatever happens in Kashmir?Do you think that !00 crores of Indians are under his command?Your "Care for the nation" seems not only misdirected, but also betrays utter illiteracy of the fundamentals on which the nation itself ihas been founded.( Ignorance of law is no excuse for someone violating it, though) Mr.Takre and people like you can say such things only as long as the patriotic sentiments of Indians allow you to express within the limits of the constitution .You may well remember that things have recently not been working well in favour of those who have a vested interest in the proliferation of hatred.Hopefully for the secular conscience of this nation, they will sooner or later be totally pushed to oblivion thanks to the enlightened responses of people in the context of telling apart who actually care for the nation and who are real terrorists and traitors. Thanking for your response here, Venu. On Mon, Jun 8, 2009 at 7:07 PM, Vedavati Jogi wrote: > i don't speak for hindus, > i care for my nation! > this socalled philosophy of secularism and liberalism is dividing the > nation and disarming hindus > and i can't see my country being partitioned again . > > once balasaheb thakare had said, if pakistan wants kashmir (because kashmir > is a muslim majority state) then they will have to accept 20 crore muslim > refugees from india too. > > i support this statement. > > vedavati > --- On *Sun, 7/6/09, Venugopalan K M * wrote: > > > From: Venugopalan K M > Subject: Re: [Reader-list] Fw: Re: i was stunned > To: "sarai-list" > Date: Sunday, 7 June, 2009, 3:38 PM > > Ignorance may be bliss; arrogance might be bliss as well, at least until > someone gets held up for rash assumptions on others... > However, certain manifestations of ignorance plus arrogance are better to > be > left as they are; I believe that will be healthy for people on both sides > of > the divide.. > Feel no temptation to dispute the contents here; > but who are you to speak for the entire Hindus in India,any way? > > Peace and love, > Venu. > > On Sun, Jun 7, 2009 at 11:12 AM, Vedavati Jogi > >wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > good -that israel govt did not listen to you and returned socalled > occupied > > territories to palestinians. i never knew that there are pseudo seculars > in > > israel too (like india) > > > > you feel govt. of india should give autonomy to kashmir, are you aware > that > > kashmiri hindus have been thrown out of kashmir? > > do you find muslims so trustworthy that in autonomous, muslims dominated > > state hindus can remain safe? > > > > whole pakistan is a muslim occupied india, are you aware of that? > > > > vedavati > > > > --- On Sun, 7/6/09, Alex Stein > > wrote: > > > > > > From: Alex Stein > > > > Subject: Re: i was stunned > > To: "Vedavati Jogi" > > > > Date: Sunday, 7 June, 2009, 2:58 AM > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > 1. I think we should return the Occupied Territories (West Bank, Gaza, > East > > Jerusalem) to the Palestinian people. > > > > 2. I never said I speak for Kashmir. > > > > 3. I think the valley should be autonomous (nobody should be removed from > > their homes). > > > > 4. That is for you and Pakistan to decide over the course - hopefully one > > day - of peace negotiations. > > > > A > > > > > > falsedichotomies.com > > > > "The most radical and the only secure form of possession is destruction, > > for only what we have destroyed is safely and forever ours." Hannah > Arendt > > > > > > > > --- On Sat, 6/6/09, Vedavati Jogi > > wrote: > > > > > > From: Vedavati Jogi > > > > Subject: Re: i was stunned > > To: "Alex Stein" > > > > Date: Saturday, 6 June, 2009, 7:38 PM > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > hello alex, > > 1) will you give part of your country to any other nation? > > 2) who has given you right to speak for kashmir? > > 3) if kashmir is given to muslims what about those hindus who have been > > living there since last thousand years? > > 4) will you dare to tell pakistan to give our land back? > > vedavati > > > > --- On Sun, 7/6/09, Alex Stein > > wrote: > > > > > > From: Alex Stein > > > > Subject: Re: i was stunned > > To: "Vedavati Jogi" > > > > Date: Sunday, 7 June, 2009, 2:27 AM > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Hi Vedavti, > > Thanks for your email. > > We are not standing in opposition to Hindus. I deeply love India, its > > culture and its people. I believe, though, that the Kashmir people have a > > right to self-determination, just like anyone else, and I believe that it > is > > in India's interest to grant it to them, at least when the time is right. > > Best wishes, > > Alex Stein > > > > PS - you may be interested in my blog of my travels in India last summer > - > > wanderingsatlan.blogspot.com > > > > > > falsedichotomies.com > > > > "The most radical and the only secure form of possession is destruction, > > for only what we have destroyed is safely and forever ours." Hannah > Arendt > > > > > > > > --- On Fri, 5/6/09, Vedavati Jogi > > wrote: > > > > > > From: Vedavati Jogi > > > > Subject: i was stunned > > To: alex.stein at talk21.com > > Date: Friday, 5 June, 2009, 7:10 AM > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > hello sir, > > > > i went thru. your article about 'jeuish-kashmiri dialogue group > > honestly i was stunned. > > i believe you have been told absoluetly wrong history. > > > > do you know how much these kashmiri hindus have suffered at the hands of > > muslims in kashmir? > > > > hindusthan is the only country which gave shelter to people of your > > religion whole heartedly that was because hindusthan is a hindu dominated > > country. > > i really wonder how can you try to befriend muslims, basically how can > you > > trust them? have you people not suffered at the hands of muslims? > > have you not heard about 'muslim brotherhood'? > > rightnow, you may think that muslims in kashmir were friendly with you > > hence they are nice. but are you sure that when you fight with other > muslim > > countries, these same kashmiri friends of yours will support you against > the > > latter? > > > > i sincerely feel, hindus, and not muslims can be your natural allies. > > > > vedavati > > india > > > > > > Own a website.Get an unlimited package.Pay next to nothing.* Click here!. > > > > > > > > Explore and discover exciting holidays and getaways with Yahoo! India > > Travel Click here! > > > > > > > > Explore and discover exciting holidays and getaways with Yahoo! India > > Travel Click here! > > > > > > Explore and discover exciting holidays and getaways with Yahoo! > India > > Travel http://in.travel.yahoo.com/ > > _________________________________________ > > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > > Critiques & Collaborations > > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.netwith > > subscribe in the subject header. > > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > > List archive: > > > > > -- > http://venukm.blogspot.com/ > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.netwith subscribe in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> > > > ------------------------------ > Cricket on your mind? Visit the ultimate cricket website. Enter now! -- http://venukm.blogspot.com/ From 2tahamehmood at googlemail.com Tue Jun 9 00:16:37 2009 From: 2tahamehmood at googlemail.com (Taha Mehmood) Date: Mon, 8 Jun 2009 19:46:37 +0100 Subject: [Reader-list] News Items posted on the net on Multipurpose National Identity Cards-124 Message-ID: <65be9bf40906081146n9d416c1pbcf74c5be06b0611@mail.gmail.com> http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/Surat/Coastal-villagers-of-Gujarat-to-get-unique-identity-card-next-year/articleshow/4628463.cms SURAT: Central government's massive exercise of providing unique multi-purpose national identity cards to coastal villagers in the wake of 26/11 terror attack in Mumbai has been initiated in Gujarat. The Central government has asked collectors of seven districts to provide the details of coastal villages falling under their jurisdiction by February 1, 2010. At the one-day all India conference on National Population Registration (NPR) held at New Delhi on June 3, the collectors of Bharuch, Surat, Valsad, Navsari, Kutch, Jamnagar and Junagadh have been asked to complete the exercise of collecting the database of the coastal villagers in four months starting from October 2009. The unique identity card is an integral part of the ongoing Multi-Purpose National Identity Card (MNIC) scheme, and will be issued to citizens living in coastal villages of Gujarat, Maharashtra, Goa, Karnataka, Kerala, Tamil Nadu, Andhra Pradesh, Orissa and West Bengal by 2010. The Union Territories, which will be covered under the first phase, are Dadra and Nagar Haveli, Lakshadweep, Puducherry and Andaman & Nicobar Islands. Official sources said the population of around 2.5 lakh people in 83 coastal villages in Surat's Olpaad and Choriyasi taluka will be covered under the Central government's unique identity card scheme by 2010. The initial plan is to cover the coastal villages to avoid terrorists taking the sea route once again. The identification number will be provided by National Authority for Unique Identity (NAUID), an entity under Planning Commission. It will work in coordination with the office of the Registrar General of India (RGI), which has been working on the National Population Register. Identity cards proposed to be issued will be micro-processor chip-based cards, which will have information of each individual, his/her finger biometric as well as a photograph. "The project is of a national importance and we are committed to complete the task by February 1," said Dilip Raval, collector, Surat. According to Raval, the task will be completed in two phases enumerator training programme and listing and numbering of the houses in coastal villages. A unique National Identity Number' will be assigned to each individual including those below 18 years of age. This number will become a link number' with any other application of the state government. From 2tahamehmood at googlemail.com Tue Jun 9 00:21:09 2009 From: 2tahamehmood at googlemail.com (Taha Mehmood) Date: Mon, 8 Jun 2009 19:51:09 +0100 Subject: [Reader-list] MNIC: Parliament Questions - 19 Message-ID: <65be9bf40906081151o376c8520sc9a560be22f31a2b@mail.gmail.com> http://164.100.47.132/psearch/QResult13.aspx?qref=52032 GOVERNMENT OF INDIA MINISTRY OF LAW , JUSTICE AND COMPANY AFFAIRS LOK SABHA UNSTARRED QUESTION NO 1805 ANSWERED ON 08.03.2001 PHOTO IDENTITY CARDS TO VOTERS 1805 . Shri PUSHPDAN SHAMBHUDAN GADHAVI CHINTAMAN NAVSHA WANAGA (a) the number of voters in the country, State-wise; (b) the number of voters who have been issued photo-identity cards in the country, State-wise; (c) whether the Union Government have released 50% of the total cost incurred by the various States for the purpose; and (d) if so, the details thereof? ANSWER MINISTER OF LAW, JUSTICE & COMPANY AFFAIRS AND SHIPPING (SHRI ARUN JAITLEY) (a)&(b) A statement is laid on the Table of the House. (c) & (d) The scheme of electors` photo identity cards is being implemented by the State Governments/Union territory Administrations directly under overall charge of the Election Commission of India. The Central Government`s role is limited to reimbursement of their share on 50:50 basis as and when the same is claimed by them. A sum of Rs.419,45,61,710/- has been released by the Central Government to the States/Union territories specifically for expenditure on the scheme of electors` Photo Identity Cards so far since 1994-95. From 2tahamehmood at googlemail.com Tue Jun 9 10:16:18 2009 From: 2tahamehmood at googlemail.com (Taha Mehmood) Date: Tue, 9 Jun 2009 05:46:18 +0100 Subject: [Reader-list] Gap Minder In-Reply-To: <0ABE6237-A4F1-49CA-9C78-8BAEF0448E28@sarai.net> References: <0ABE6237-A4F1-49CA-9C78-8BAEF0448E28@sarai.net> Message-ID: <65be9bf40906082146vf23e945m205b6c0fc95ba6e3@mail.gmail.com> Sure Monica!! The visuals seem to be stunning. The broad argument comes across as- with the rise in income- life expectancy at birth increases, child mortality decreases, literacy increases, and registered citizen decreases. Interesting, isn't it? However, I was a bit wary of the ease with which such data could be manipulated given that sourcing seems to be absent. Also there seems to be a problem in representation. For instance, a caveat listed on the site states that- 'The Kashmir district has been included as an Indian territory only in order to show the internal inequities of different Indian states and their changes over time, and this does not represent or indicate any political opinions of Gapminder Foundation.' It is not clear what do they mean by 'The Kashmir district'??? Do we have a district of Kashmir anywhere in the world??? Moreover all the Maps concerning India do not show the official GOI representation of the political map of India. I wonder why Data regarding registered citizens is given in absolutes and not as a percentage of population as in other cases? What does it mean to know that there are 177 849 749 registered citizens in UP in 2006??? Adult literacy is defined on the site as people who could read and write a simple statement about their everyday life. We of course know, that's the standard UNESCO definition. If this is the case, then I really do not know how much of reality-as-it-is, is represented by this slick software. Do all, so called adult literates of India can really read and write a simple statement about their everyday life???? I highly doubt it. Most of the data is correlated with income/person which uses 1990 PPP international dollar as counting unit. Why??? we don't know. This seems to be so arbitrary. Even Gapminder people seem to acknowledge it in the caveat section- 'this data set is not up-to-date and quality not satisfactory'. Now they want to shift to 2005. Why??? again we are kept guessing. The punchline goes 'Unveiling the beauty of statistics for a fact based world view', huh!! I think the apparent certainty and simplicity of the visual cartography is pretty terrifying. Maybe someone should start compiling a counter site on lies, damned lies and statistics. Now, wouldn't that be pretty ;) Regards Taha From pawan.durani at gmail.com Tue Jun 9 10:40:25 2009 From: pawan.durani at gmail.com (Pawan Durani) Date: Tue, 9 Jun 2009 10:40:25 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Massacres - Part X Message-ID: <6b79f1a70906082210w2187948au20280a751a910ac6@mail.gmail.com> Part X because I simply lost count. How many more do our peaceful and minuscule community have to withstand without being noticed by the world conscience ? - PD ++++++++++++++++ 1 Nadimarg Massacre Terrorists target Kashmiri Pandits once again KS Correspondent JAMMU, Apr 8: On March 23 Nadimarg entered as yet another chapter in the history of genocide of Kashmiri Pandits. In a brutal display of savagery, the merchants of terror, waging Jehadic war moved down 24 Kashmiri Hindus, including 11 women and two children. Nadimarg, a village 7 kms from Bijbehara, the home town of the State Chief Minister, Mufti Mohammad Sayeed, showed to the whole world how hollow were the claims of the State Government that situation was ripe for the journey back home. Government's so called return plan has only paved the way for yet another exodus by those who had braved the selective killings and massacres, of their co-religionists during the past thirteen years. Nadimarg, a picturesque village is located 1 1/2 kms away from Zainapore, the historic town founded by the benevolent king, Zain-ul-Abdin, in the fifteenth century. The Pandits had named the king as 'Bata Shah', (protector of Pandits) because of the protection he provided to them, after he called them back from exile and hiding. Today the town stands witness to intolerance. A small stream demarcates the Pandit locality from the Muslim mohalla. In 1990, the village had 51 families . Presently there were only eleven families with 52 members. These families belonged to the downtrodden section of the Pandit community. Their survival depended on either class IV jobs or meagre land they possessed. Some of these families would supplement their meagre income by doing side jobs. At the time of the massacre, sixteen members of this community had been out to some neighbouring village tolerance. In the chapter of intolerance, being scripted by the religious warriors, nearly fifteen hundred members of the minority, community have been killed in 80 massacres in J&K. For Kashmiri Pandits, Nadimarg massacre is fifth one, since the 'popular' govt took reins of power in 1996. Terrorists have attacked Pandits through massacre in these districts--Budgam (March 20, Sangrampora), Srinagar 25/26 Jan., Wandhama), Anantnag (Jan 20-Telwani, Aug. 2002 Sirigufwara). The main motive behind these massacres is to terrorise the minorities and force them to migrate. For the last three years the incidents involving attacks on minorities and their religious places have been occurring with regular frequency. Incidentally, the Kashmiri Pandit exodus started in 1990, when the present Chief Minister was Union Home Minister. March 23: Equewitnesses, who survived the carnage said a group of 4-7, heavily armed terrorists, dressed in army uniform, descended on Nadimarg hamlet at around 10.30 PM, when the victims were going to sleep. They first went to the police picket, set up to safeguard Pandit population of the village. Presently, nine policemen had been posted here, while twenty constables had been withdrawn before the assembly elections. These nine cops were supposed to look after the protection of 55 families in a radius of 15-20 km. At the time of the attack only five cops were present. These poorly motivated policemen meekly surrendered their weapons, four SLRs, three 303 Rifles, one carbine and the lone wireless set to the terrorists and escaped from the scene. Knowing the identity of police cops, the terrorists did not touch police. The cops even did not go to report the massacre to the nearby Zainpora police station. The terrorists, after looting arms and ammunition of the policemen, went to knock at the doors of Kashmiri Pandit houses. They commanded them to assemble in the compound near the picket under a Chinar tree. Those who did not comply with orders had their doors broken open. Terrorists, in fact, beat some people, who were reluctant to come out. Phoola, who lost her husband and daughter told reporters, "The terrorists were calling the people by name. After identifying them they took them to the compound. They told us they were armymen, and had to search the houses. They asked everybody to come out". While driving the residents out, the terrorists looted cash and snatched away gold and ornaments from women. This had not been the style of terrorists in previous massacres. When the terrorists knocked at Phoola's house, she and her daughter pushed Chand Ji, her son into a chimney, before opening the door Phoola herself slipped away from the line and hid in the bushes, just metres from the massacre site. Soom Nath, a government servant had retired recently. He had brought his gratuity money and other pensionary benefits to home and kept these in the cupboard. He said terrorists were carrying torches and introduced themselves as troops. They asked all the family members to vacate their homes and assemble near the Chinar tree in the main compound, he added. Soom Nath was slapped twice and asked to show other family members. His wife was taken outside and was asked to join other Pandits under the Chinar tree. Soom Nath's son smelt a rat and hid himself under the cot. He and his wife gave slip to the terrorists and hid themselves behind the haystack. Though Chuni Lal's family was lucky to escape, the terrorists looted away his cash of Rs 1.7 lakhs and other costly items before fleeing from the scene. After collecting the Pandits under the Chinar tree, the terrorists began looting Pandit houses. The looted goods were put in a matador. The Pandits thought, possibly the intention of the terrorists was to loot them and their lives would be spared. But soon after the matador was despatched, the terrorists opened fire in discriminately upon the hapless Pandits, killing 24 people. Chuni Lal, who had been hit in the thigh fell down and found himself in a pile of dead bodies. As guns fell silent, the gunmen came to check for any living. In a pool of blood, Chuni Lal held his breath and feigned death. The killers had left and reached near the school, a few dozen metres away, when they heard the cries of a child. Mohan Lal Bhat recalled, "I heard one of them shout to others that there is some work still to be done. Then I heard a gun shot. Later I got to know it was Monu". Bullets had made sieve of his chest. Devki (75), w/o Jiya Lal was dragged upto carnage site and her pleas of mercy were turned down. Gunwati, a 90-year old paralytic lady asked the killers to kill her too. A terrorist told her in Kashmiri that there was no need to kill a dead person. A 23 year old handicapped girl, who could not walk because of her disability was dragged out, and shot dead. Most of the victims were found with bullet holes in the face. Survivors said many of the people were killed in cold blood from point blank range. Almost all the bodies were found with gun shot wounds in their heads. Ramesh Koul, who lost his father, took great risk to reach Zainapora police station at 1.00 AM. The police cops told him they can go to Nadimarg only after they receive orders from above. Zainpora police party reached Nadimarg at 4 AM, while senior officials and security forces' commanders reached the carnage site only in the morning. Even the chief minister was informed by DGP only at 6.30 AM. In the carnage, the whole family of Bansi Lal (59), his wife Bindri (55), daughter Girja (35), daughter Princy (20) and son Rakesh was wiped out. Suraj had gone to sleep after celebrating his third birthday. His grandfather Dwarka Nath had come on the occasion with presents from Fatehpur village. Dwarka Nath lost his both daughters and two grandsons. Only a three month infant who had been sleeping escaped the eyes of the killers. There were 12 survivors, who managed to hide in darkness. A day after the massacre, it was a horrifying scene in the village. Blood and body parts were littered everywhere. At the carnage site, shoes, blankets and lantern were scattered. A correspondent of a leading English daily wrote, "once a prosperous village, Nadimarg today presented a look of war ravaged hamlet. The difference was that instead of helmets of soldiers, the boots and the caps of the innocent civilians were scattered everywhere. The killers had dumped the bodies on the spot as if they wanted vultures to eat them. It was a scene that could even send a cold-hearted person to a virtual shock. A large row of bodies, wrapped in a shroud, with blood making its way out of the thin white coffin". The cremation was delayed by the administration for the arrival of the chief minister. But no politician or official of the administration stayed back for cremation. As the bodies were being lined up for funeral, on old Pandit who could not walk, wept bitterly at the verandah of his house and said, "I have not lost just my family. I feel my roots have ditched me. I will never belong to Kashmir again". Advani's Visit: Nearly two hundred Pandits from Nadimarg and other neighbouring villages assembled to give hostile reception to the Deputy Prime Minister, LK Advani. They were inconsolable and accused Mufti government for not providing security despite requests made to government. The people shouted slogans against Mr Advani and Mr Mufti Mohammad Sayeed and attacked 'healing touch policy'. The chief minister had to face serious embarrassment, when Pandits named officials who were responsible for security lapse. The protestors shouted, "we want migration...J&K Police Hai Hai. Healing Touch Hai Hai". DGP and senior police officials were hooted down. A lone survivor of a family, wiped out in the carnage, Mohan Lal alias Vicky, was so emotional that he shoulted at Mr Advani and Mufti Sayeed that he too must "be shot dead". He asked them, "what for I have to live now, kill me, please, kill me". Chandji, who survived miraculously asked Mr Advani what they had given to the Pandit community except for "death and destruction". In a remorseful mood, Advani consoled the relatives of the victims, saying, "I must admit we have not done justice to you". They asked him if government could not protect eight thousand Pandits left in the Valley, how could it talk of return of more than two lakh displaced members of the community. When the Pandits demanded dismissal of Mufti government, he told them the NDA government would use Article 356 only in extreme cases. Security Lapse : Why did Nadimarg massacre took place? Where were the lapses? Mr MM Khajuria a former DPG of the state said, "The terrorists normally leave the Pandits staying back in the Valley alone. In fact, they are considered a 'war asset' by their foreign masters. Pawns in the hands of the merchants of terror, these Pandits were handy for strategic butchering as and when required. Such massacres have broadly followed a set pattern". The former DPG also points his finger at the state government for its casual approach. He observed, "...the plan for securing return of Pandit migrants to Kashmir failed to address the basic and crucial requirement of a sturdy and fool proof security cover for those already there...The omission to conduct a comprehensive and realistic appraisal of the ground reality while planning the 'Go Home Project' for the migrants and put in place necessary security cover has not only made the Nadimarg tragedy possible but also exposed the mighty Indian state to ridicule...In view of the overall security environment, the threat perception, the known modus-operandi of the enemy, and their established capability to mount such operations something much more than establishment of symbolic police pickets needed to be done". Survivors of the carnage put the whole blame on the administration. The women folk had observed suspicious movement a week prior to the attack. A few days before, a milkman had told Pandits to be careful. Chuni Lal said, "we had some fears about our safety for the past two days. We went to meet DC Anantnag on 22nd and had asked for additional security. The DC ignored our plea...they came only after our fears came to true". The Pandits had also met DC Pulwama, Ms Naseema Lankar but to no help. They approached two local MLAs of CPM and also alerted their brethren in Jammu. A delegation of Panun Kashmir had met the State Governor and Mr ID Swami. On 21st, two days before the massacre, Panun Kashmir held a press conference and tried to impress upon the state government that its decision was ill-conceived and could create problems for Pandits. On the day of the massacre, a Pandit of a neighbouring village had to visit Nadimarg for distributing marriage cards. He was advised by his Muslim friend not to stay in the village that night and return home. How could all these inputs be not in the knowledge of the police intelligence. Even the SHO Zainapora had described Nadimarg as hypersensitive. A fortnight back there was a attack on Telephone Exchange at Zainapora. The survivors have also alleged that the terrorists were in connivance with some cops, deployed at the police picket. They added that the terrorists picked up and chose men and women from the inhabited houses only and did not enter the inhabited ones. According to these Pandits a few of the militants were Kashmiris. A delegation of Kashmiri Pandit Sabha which visited Nadimarg did not rule out the involvement of some locals from the neighbouring village, Yaripora. The particular village has remained a stronghold of Jamaat Islami. A few Pandit families, which migrated from other villages said new vested interests have emerged in Valley and they have been trying to throw them out of the Valley. Justice (retd.) Ghulam Ahmed Kuchay, in his capacity as head of State Human Rights Commission, had probed Wandhama massacre. He had stated in his six page report that Wandhama massacre may be taken as a warning note and proper measures needed to be initiated to prevent such incidents. He told the media, "I had given a detailed account of things and recommended measures. But none of these were implemented". The Pandit community and the NC President, Omar Abdullah have also accused the chief minister of bungling the return issue. They have charged that he had been building media-hype on the issue, without taking ground reality into account. In a veiled criticism of state government's plan, Deputy Prime Minister had told Rajya Sabha on March 12, "The yardstick for their return will be safety. The Kashmiri migrants are still not convinced about their safety in the Valley. Nobody will be pushed anywhere. " Referring to the state government's plan, he added that unless they (migrants) are convinced the plan will not succeed. Taking part in the discussion, Dr Farooq Abdullah warned that Pandits would not be safe in the Valley. He added, "I do not think conditions are conducive enough for these people to go back. The government's plans to set up two colonies would not solve the problem. The government had to provide security to them. The former chief minister warned, "they will became a target of the Al-Qaida and other movements. The fallout of any attack would be felt in other places of the country". In the wake of Nadimarg massacre, nearly two hundred members of 32 families of Pandit community have migrated from such places like Kangan, Magam, Karan Nagar, Sathu, Kulgam, Sirhama etc. The government fears if Nadimarg survivors are allowed to go, Pandits in other villages will follow suit. 'The massacre dented its (State Government's) image and the migration would deepen the dent'. The district administration, whose negligence led to massacre, had brought Nadimarg survivors back from Barsoo, when they were on way to Jammu. Presently survivors are living as 'captives' in Nadimarg. This has further eroded the image and credibility of PDP-led government. Nadimarg Pandits told mediamen, "we have been held hostages in the village as no member of the community from rest of the Valley is allowed to see us nor are we allowed to go out". Meanwhile Pandits in other parts of the Valley are feeling apprehensive about their safety and have demand a CBI or judicial probe in all aspects of massacre. They have also demanded strong action against guilty officials. The state government too is in a fix how to provide fool-proof security to 271 hamlets of Kashmir Pandits. Return of Pandits is a national issue. Its use for partisan ends can only be detrimental to their ultimate return. Victims of Nadimarg massacre, 23-3-03 1. Bansi Lal (70), S/o Daya Ram 2. Rajni (22) D/o Bansi Lal 3.Lok Nath (40) S/o Kanth Ram 4. Radhakrishan (60) S/o Kanth Ram 5. Pradhiman Krishan (25) S/o Radhakrishan 6. Geeta (40) W/o Radha Krishan 7. Ramesh Pandit 8. Lassa Koul (70) S/o Govind Ram 9. Triloki Nath (55) F/o Manohar Nath Pandit 10. Sangeeta (30) W/o Manohar Nath Pandit 11. Suraj Kumar (3) S/o Manohar Nath Pandit 12. Suman (Julie) (30), W/o Satish Kumar Pandit 13. Monu Raj (2) S/o Satish Kumar 14. Chand Rani (40) W/o Chuni Lal 15. Jiya Lal Bhat (80) 16. Devki (75) W/o Jiya Lal Bhat 17. Sushma (26) D/o Jiya Lal 18. Avtar Krishan (55) S/o Jiya Lal 19. Girja Kumari (23) D/o Bansi Lal 20. Princy (27) D/o Bansi Lal 21. Rakesh Kumar (22) S/o Jiya Lal 22. Bansi Lal (50) S/o Jiya Lal 23. Umat Kumar (20) S/o Avtar Krishan 24. Ashajee (Bindri) 40) W/o Bansi Lal Injured: Chuni Lal Survivors of Carnage: 1. Mohan Lal Bhat 2. Ramesh Koul 3.Chuni Lal and his son (4) Deep 5. Phoola Devi 6. Gunwati 7. Som Nath (8) his wife and (9) his son 10. 3 month old child of Satish Kumar 11. Sanjay Koul 12. Manohar Nath Pandit 13. Pran Nath Bhat 14. Rohit 15. Bhushan Lal ** Kashmiri Pandits staying in Valley at the time of Nadimarg massacre Total No. of Families : 1535 Number of People : 7823 No. of Localities : 271 District Srinagar Budgam Baramulla Kupwara Anantnag Pulwama No. of Families: 557 112 313 16 419 118 No. of People : 2228 425 1404 64 1859 1543 2 Probe Nadimarg massacre WHILE some of the Kashmiri Pandit families have been persuaded not to migrate after the gory killings at Nadimarg the police have yet to achieve any major breakthrough in identifying the killers. As has happened in several cases of massacres and killings of other innocent persons as also the assassination of prominent leaders in the recent past the security authorities, which otherwise fail to prevent such strikes, blamed the Lashkar-e-Toiba and Jaish-e-Mohammad militants for the Nadimarg massacre within hours of the incident. On the other hand the DIG police while claiming to have achieved some breakthrough in the investigations refused to divulge the details. Even in the past the police made similar claims about all the cases of killings but eventually all such cases were closed without identifying the culprits, not to speak of bringing them to book. In most cases of such massacres no independent probes are ordered and in few cases where such inquiries are held the reports, if any, are kept closely guarded secrets and no follow-up action is taken. Such an attitude of the authorities and their failure to order independent probes and keep every thing secret about the cases only creates doubts about the official claims regarding the culprits. The chief minister has alleged that Nadimarg massacre is an attempt to derail the peace process. It is also claimed that the Nadimarg massacre was aimed at frustrating the State government's move to rehabilitate the Kashmiri Pandit migrants in the Valley in different phases. For restoring the affected people's confidence it is important that the killer are unmasked and given stern punishment. The failure to probe incidents and bring the culprits to book in the past has only increased the sense of insecurity among the people. This has also encouraged the killers to strike again and again more brutally. In most of the cases of killings including the latest incident at Nadimarg there has been obvious lapse on the part of the security and intelligence agencies who failed to prevent such killings. To identify the killers and bring them to book as also to find out the security lapses and inefficacy of the security agencies in preventing such incidents it is necessary that a high level and impartial probe is ordered into every such case soon after the incident. While police may go ahead with routine investigations the independent and impartial inquiries can help in preventing such incidents for the future while restoring to much extent the people's faith in the administration in doing them justice. The killers must be unmasked and punished in every such case if the government is keen to prevent such incidents and go ahead with its peace process. (Editorial Kashmir Times, Jammu) 3 An emotionally turbulent fortnight By David Devadas It has been an emotionally turbulent fortnight in Kashmir. Shock and anguish at the massacre of 24 Kashmiri Pandits overwhelmed all other sentiments but, before that, Islamic passions were rising to fever pitch over the "shock and awe" strikes against Iraq. If pan-Islamic militant groups were trying to whip that Islamic sentiment farther by hitting at non-Muslims, they miscalculated terribly. Indeed, they could not have done greater damage to their cause. There has rarely been a more complete protest strike in recent years than the one last week against this massacre. Kashmir's leading Imam, Mirwaiz Umar, declared that whoever had done it had grievously injured Islam. The conflation of emotions in Kashmiri minds and hearts is sometimes very difficult for others to comprehend. On the one hand, they are deeply devoted to Islam. On the other, they warmly cherish the fusion of cultures that they call Kashmiriyat. To understand this co-existence of sentiments, one must realise that most Kashmiris see no contradiction in the subtle absorption of Hindu traditions into their practice of Islam, although these seem heretical to AhIe-hadis puritans. In fact, the ambivalent complexity of the Kashmiri mind or perhaps it is the Kashmiri heart-has led to confusion about what the entire militant movement is about. Such killings naturally lead people to presume that it is basically a Hindu-Muslim problem. That is a very limited under standing. One must remember that Pandits were killed largely in two phases. The first phase lasted mainly from February to August 1990 and targeted individual Pandits or males in twos and threes. The second phase of Pandit killings has concentrated on mowing down entire families in particular villages and can be dated from January 26, 1998, when a massacre similar to this one occurred at Wandhama near Ganderbal. The first series of killings, in which about 150 Hindus were slaughtered, was often revoltingly depraved. Such brutality can only be explained in the context of the mass hysteria I wrote about it in my last column. Its roots probably lie in the collective memory of Kashmiri Muslims of their gross repression over a century-and-a-half. If that is so, that season of vicious blood letting in 1990 served as a catharsis. The Kashmiri Muslim went back by autumn that year to rediscovering his composite culture. Of course, that rediscovery was facilitated by the economic spin-offs of the mass migration of Pandits that those murders caused. Muslim school teachers, university professors, consultants at the most prestigious hospitals, wannabe journalists and civil servants in every department suddenly had unexpected avenues for promotion. For, though Pandit domination of government jobs had been gradually declining for 40 years, their learning, diligence and kinship network still left them with a strong grip over several professions. Since the Pandits who remained beyond the summer of 1990 were mainly poor peasants who lacked the tools to build a new life out side the valley, the community ceased to be economically competitive. So it was easy for Muslims to bask once more in the comforting glow of composite culture. Many Muslims continued to want independence but now wished for the remaining minorities to go with them. By the late l990s, the militancy had been largely taken over by jehadi warriors from Pakistan, churned out from the sprawling Dawat-ul-Irshad campus at Muridke or madarsas affiliated to the Jamiat-e-Ulema-e-Islam (which also spawned the Taliban) or to Pakistan's Jamaat-e-Islami. This type of warrior had no feel for Kashmir's freedom struggle. They were steeped in doctrinaire sermons invoking Islamic resurgence on a global scale, before which national boundaries would crumble. To these zealots, Kashmir was Islamic territory and putting its kafir Hindus to death would earn them a place in heaven beside the Ghazis of yore. They could not understand why Kashmiri Muslims got so upset at the deaths of their Hindu compatriots. It is ironic that these jihadi warriors killed Abdul Majid Dar, former Operational Commander of Hizb-ul Mujahideen, a day before they slaughtered Hindus just last week. (Source: The Tribune) 4 The guns were never silent By Shujaat Bukhari The killings in Kashmir never stopped. Over 800 people died in the cause of a free and fair election. And those who are on the frontline say that while militant activity, in the form of major attacks, showed a decline in Kashmir - until the strike in Nadimarg - after Mufti Mohammed Sayeed took over as Chief Minister in November last, it did not mean that the militant set-up was disturbed in any way. As the security officials put it, the militants were waiting and watching how the situation in the Valley developed after the new Government assumed power. But elsewhere in the State, particularly the Jammu region, major attacks continued to take place. Even in Kashmir, targeted killings of individuals never stopped - the daily toll in ones and twos kept the death count mounting. But there was a fall in spectacular fidayeen (suicide) attacks. The figures of fatalities in militancy-related incidents in the five months beginning November 2, 2002, seem to bolster this view of a continued high level of attrition. The number of deaths was about 850, which included 263 civilians, 130 security and police personnel and 450 militants. And among the killed were Abdul Aziz Mir, the first member of the newly-elected Legislative Assembly from Pampore, and the former chief commander of the Hizbul Mujahideen, Abdul Majid Dar. What is noticeable and commented on is the rise in militant activity in the rural areas and in the number of foreigners involved. Official sources confirm that in the Kashmir Valley alone, there are as many as 4,000 militants, as infiltration from across the border never stopped. Not even during the unprecedented troops mobilisation along the International Border with Pakistan, after the December 13 Parliament attack. And as always, the number will go up in summer as the Chief of Army Staff, Gen. N. C. Vij, confirmed in Srinagar recently: "It will increase after the passes open."(Source: The Hindu) 5 What Do The Survivors Say Chuni Lal (60)--"When I heard a knock, I opened the door and saw some gunmen asking us to come out for searches being conducted to flush out the militants. They were wearing Army uniforms and spoke Urdu and Kashmiri. Later all of us were asked to assemble outside the police post and the indiscriminate firing started. When one of them said he (Chuni Lal) is still alive I pretended to be dead and thus survived". Deep, son of Chuni Lal--"We had approached the Deputy Commissioner, Anantnag, on Saturday (22 March) and told him that we had some apprehensions and asked for security to be strengthened. But he refused to listen." Bhushan Lal--"The security was insufficient. They (the police) surrendered their weapons and were nothing but lame ducks". Som Nath--"The gunmen, dressed in army uniforms were carrying torches and introduced themselves as troops. They asked all the family members to vacate their homes and assemble near the Chinar tree in the main compound. They slapped me twice and asked me to show them other family members. We were only three people putting up in the house at that time. They took my wife outside and ordered her to join other people in the compound. My son smelt a rat and hid himself under the cot. I and my wife were asked to join the other people. But we gave them a slip and hid ourselves behind the haystack. The armed men then searched the whole house and broke open all the cupboards. They also took away cash of Rs 1.7 lakhs and other costly items before fleeing from the scene". Phoola--"The gun men were speaking pure Kashmiri. I heard one of them call a resident of this village by name. They told us that they were armymen and had to search the houses. They asked everybody to come out. I came out with my husband and daughter. But when they asked us to line up infront of the police picket, I slipped away towards the bushes. Within seconds, they started firing indiscriminately. And when they (the gunmen) left the village, I looked for my family. My husband and daughter were lying dead but my son Chandji had also escaped. He had hidden inside the house". Mohan Lal Bhat (19)--"I was about to go to sleep when there was a knock at the door. My mother opened the door and there were three men wearing army uniforms, helmets and "bullet proof" vests. Two of them were bearded and they asked everybody to come out. One of them spoke in Kashmiri, which roused suspicion and when my father tried to resist, they dragged him out. Then they dragged out my mother, sister and uncle. I heard the commotion on the door and hid behind a tin sheet upstairs. Within fifteen minutes I heard gun shots and wails. They had left and reached near the school (a few dozen metres away) when they heard the cries of a child. I heard one of them shout to others that there is some work still to be done. Then I heard a gun shot. Later I got to know it was two year old Monu". Sanjay Koul--"We are in a dilemma that why were our people killed so ruthlessly. We requested the authorities several times that the security was not adequate and demanded more security, but they never heard us. Now, the result is in front of us. Our families have been eliminated. Pran Nath Bhat (38)--We stayed back in 1990 after they (local Muslims) pleaded with us not to go, assuring us that we would be safe. But after this tragedy, they (local Muslims) want us to leave because even they don't feel safe here anymore". Chand Kumar Bhat S/o Bansi Lal--"These people (Rashtriya Rifles men) were just 3 km away from here but took six hours to arrive after the killers left. Now they want us to stay back. How can we feel safe here? The government has said that if migrate, no aid will be given. We tell them we don't need you, we can take care of ourselves" END 6 Nadimarg Massacre--Global Reactions KS Correspondent George Bush, U.S. President--"The President strongly condemns the cowardly attack that left 24 innocent men, women and children dead in Shopian in J&K on March 23. The attack underscores the importance of the war on terror and strengthens our resolve to work with friends and allies to fight terrorism at home and abroad". Robert Blackwell, U.S. Ambassador in New Delhi--"The U.S. condemns the ghastly murders of innocent men, women and children at Nadimarg village in J&K. The global war on terrorism will not be won until such atrocities end against all countries. We look forward to the terrorists being brought swiftly to justice". Jack Straw, British Foreign Secretary--"These killings underline the need for continued action to eliminate the scourage of terrorism". Kofi Annan, UN Secretary General--"The UN Secretary General condemns in the strongest possible terms as a cowardly act of terrorism the massacre of 24 Kashmiri Hindus, including women and children, that took place near the town of Shopian in Kashmir". French Foreign Ministry Spokesman--"France condemns the attack which took place in J&K, resulting in numerous civilian casualties and conveys its condolences to the families of the victims". The Times, London--"The despicable massacre...is a calculated attempt to provoke a blood bath at a time when the world is preoccupied with Iraq. The attacks came after three months of relative peace, and were deliberately brutal in order to goad the Indians into retaliation. It was a crime against Kashmir's Hindu minority and a shocking reminder that Kashmir remains a flash-point in the confrontation between the subcontinent's two nuclear powers. The militants cannot be allowed to provoke a return to nuclear confrontation. Musharraf is a vital ally in US efforts to deflect Muslim criticism of the war in Iraq. But he must be held to his commitment to end the fund arming and training of terrorists in Kashmir. Pakistan's condemnation of the massacre is prompt and welcome. It must be backed with an unrelenting crackdown on those who would shoot women and children in Kashmir" Christina Rocca, US Assistant Secretary of State for South Asia--"Continued terrorism like Sunday's attack threatens to provoke yet another crisis in the coming months. We look to Pakistan to do everything in its power to prevent extremist groups operating from its soil from crossing the LoC. Pakistan has taken steps to curb infiltration but we are asking the government to redouble its efforts. At the same time, we will use our good offices to continue to press both sides to take confidence building steps that will lead to a process of engagement addressing all issues that divide them (India and Pakistan) including Kashmir". 7 Nadimarg Massacre--Reactions Governor G.C. Saxena--"It is a crime against humanity and a barbaric act of ethnic-cleansing". Mufti Mohd. Sayeed, Chief Minister, J&K--"It is aimed at derailing our peace process but we are committed to go ahead. This is a barbaric act. I cannot be acquitted in this but such incidents have taken place in the past as well. Situation has to be made conducive before the return of Kashmiri Pandits to the Valley. If protected people like us are not safe there, what can be the fate of the common man". Mr Ghulam Nabi Azad, State Congress Chief--"It was a security lapse as no proper security arrangements had been made. An inquiry should be ordered into the massacre. All the guilty officials should be taken to task. The government, run by PDP and the Congress, is talking about rehabilitating Kashmiri Pandit migrants but adequate security arrangements are missing for those who chose to stay back in the Valley for all these years". Mr L.K. Advani, Union Home Minister--"Such acts which are perpetrated against one particular community can only be seen as ethnic-cleansing. Pakistan is not only responsible for violence in J&K but even in other parts of the country" Mr Omar Abdullah, Former Minister of State for External Affairs--"The brutal massacre of 24 Kashmiri Pandits in Kashmir should be an eye-opener for the Mufti Sayeed government in the state to shelve its ill-conceived plan of bringing the minority community back to the Valley. The State government plans to rehabilitate them in Mattan and Khirbhawani places thus leaving them an easy prey for the militants. The Chief Minister had neglected the security concerns of the minority community. Our government could have also brought them back. But we have to see whether we are in a position to provide them with cent percent security or not. While healing touch policy of the State government is well it had to see that it did not leave more deep and painful wounds on the people of J&K". Mr M.Venkiah Naidu, BJP President--"These incidents were the handiwork of Pakistan-sponsored terrorism which are aimed at their long established agenda of ethnic-cleansing of the Kashmir valley of the heterogenous population. The Congress-PDP government in the state should immediately reassess the utility of continuing with its soft policy on terrorism. The situation in Kashmir requires a healing touch. This healing touch must heal only the victims of terror and not its perpetrators. In view of the serious situation the PDP-Congress Government will adequately respond in the national interest and review its earlier decision of disbanding the Special Operations Group (SOG). The international community must understand that Pakistan has not given up its cross border terrorism and should become aware of the evil designs of Islamabad and condemn it outright". Prof. V.K. Malhotra senior BJP leader--"The Centre must direct the State government under Article 355 to take action against terrorism. If killings continue in state like this, there is no other alternative to imposition of Article 356 in the state". Prof. O.P. Kohli, former BJP chief--"The spurt in terrorist activities was the direct result of the wrong policy being pursued by the State government. Terrorism cannot be curbed by showing softness to the militants but only by adopting a realistic and hard approach to them". Mr M.Y. Tarigami (CPM), MLA--"There are no two opinions that State government should review security arrangements. The forces which say that the Pandits had migrated to Jammu for a picnic must see the realities. Even now some voices would be raised to mislead the public that the killings were executed by army". Mr Harshdev Singh, Education Minister--"No civilised society can tolerate it How long we depend on U.S. certificate of great restrain". Dr Mehboob Beg (NC) MLC--"There were lapses and loopholes in the security arrangements. The government examine that whether it should have given a premature statement on the Pandits return to the Valley." Mr Jugal Kishore (BJP) MLA-"Militancy has got a boost under new government while police and security forces were demoralised. If the government couldn't provide security cover to the Pandits putting up in the Valley, how it would take other Kashmiri migrants to the Valley? The government should not have disbanded SoG". Mr Mohd. Khalil Naik (CPM) MLA--"The Kashmiri Pandits had approached me for security cover. I had sounded the concerned officers but no action was taken to provide them with the security cover. The state government should take strong action against the officers" Mr Ajay Sadhotra (NC) MLA--A wave of insecurity was prevailing among the people in view of a series of militancy related incidents in the state. If the state government continued with its present polices, they day is not far when the militancy would spread to Jammu and then it would be difficult to contain it. Government should enhance ex-gratia compensation to Rs 5 lakh at par with the compensation given to the dependents of army jawans". CPM, Polit Bureau--"This inhuman act has been deliberately done to spoil the chances of restoring peace and allowing the minority community to live peacefully in the Valley. Reports that police posted in Nadimarg village did not take action to protect the families which were targeted demand a proper inquiry into their role and prompt action". Shabana Azami and others--"We condemn the ghastly killings of defenceless people in the strongest possible terms. The cowards behind the latest outrage are unlikely to identify themselves but the massacre is a desperate bid to communalise the Kashmir issue to sabotage any efforts towards ensuring the return of Kashmiri Pandits to their homes. We demand a thorough investigation into security lapses that turned the vulnerable Kashmiri Pandits into easy targets of mass murderers who pretend to be serving lofty causes. Our hearts go out to the survivors of the carnage in particular and Kashmiri Pandit community in general, the overwhelming majority of whom have been condemned to live the life of refugees in their own country because of Pakistan-aided terrorism in the Valley" Mr Muzaffar Hussain Beg, Finance Minister--"Nadimarg carnage is a deep stab wound in the chest of Kashmir psyche. The repeat of such gruesome incidents will only reopen the old wounds. I wonder how would be the next bloody chapter of the state's bleeding history scripted". Mr Shyam Khosla, veteran Journalists--"The Pulwama massacre of 24 Kashmiri Hindus is a part of Pakistan's evil conspiracy to complete the "unfinished task" of ethnic-cleansing of the Valley...No one seems to be concerned about the misery and plight of Kashmiri Hindus. They are the forgotten community...Chief Minister Mufti Mohammad Sayeed's much publicised plans to resettle Kashmiri Hindus in the Valley is meaningless as his police force didn't fire a single shot at the mercenaries as they went about killing innocent women and children. While any movement back to the Valley is out of question at this juncture, what appears imminent is yet another wave of migration from the Valley...Release of a large number of suspected terrorists and disbanding of Special Operations Group have sent wrong signals". Mr Maninderjit Singh Bitta, President, All India Anti-Terrorist Front--"Congress should withdraw support to the Mufti government in J&K. Governor's rule must also be imposed on that state and KPS Gill should be made the Governor. This kind of steps are essential for controlling militancy in Kashmir". Acharya Giriraj Kishore (VHP)--"Nadimarg massacre is not only a blot for the state government but also the central government. The Centre should take stern steps to protect the innocent people from falling prey to the guns of terrorists. The Centre should immediately declare J&K as a disturbed state and dismiss the Mufti Mohammad Sayeed-led PDP-Congress government. The healing touch policy of the PDP-Cong government is responsible for the spurt in terrorist incidents in J&K". Jammu Mukti Morcha--"The incidents like Nadimarg have highlighted one harsh fact that state government has failed to ensure their security. The only viable alternative to rehabilitate Kashmiri Pandits is to carve an area out of the Valley which will be administered by the Central government and state government having no role to play. Because of the Mufti Sayeed led government's soft policy towards militancy there has been a spurt in the militancy in the state. Negotiations is no solution for militancy particularly when it is sponsored and supported by external forces. The militancy in J&K will not be brought under control unless security forces are given free hand to tackle the situation". Mr Bal Thackeray, Shiv Sena Chief--"The attack on Kashmiri Pandits, recent spate of blasts in Mumbai and the Akshardam incident are examples of Islamic terrorism. We all have to be together and not talk in terms of Marathi, Gujarati or Bengali...but as Hindus. And we will all have to fight Islamic terrorism. The country is passing through a critical phase. We are like orphans and we have no clear leader". Mr Kuldeep Raina, General Secretary Panun Kashmir--"It is surprising that despite tall claims to rehabilitate Kashmiri Pandits in the Valley the government failed to protect the one who were putting up there. Our organisation had already warned that the situation in the Valley was not conducive. The coalition government's policies are not in favour of Kashmiri Pandits". Dr Praveen Bhai Togadia, VHP International General Secretary--"The militants have repeated Godhra in Pulwama district of J&K by mowing down 24 Kashmiri Pandits. The public faith in the system is waning in view of the rising number of attacks on the Hindus and their property in J&K and outside over the years. The soft state policy against the ultras and their patrons from across the border could lead to outbreak of another civil war. The watering down of the drive against militants by disbanding SOG of the state police and withdrawing cases against terrorists as part of the 'healing touch' policy has resulted in escalation of killings of Hindus in the state in recent months". Source: Kashmir Sentinel From akmalik45 at yahoo.com Tue Jun 9 11:06:17 2009 From: akmalik45 at yahoo.com (A.K. Malik) Date: Mon, 8 Jun 2009 22:36:17 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Reader-list] Fw: Re: i was stunned Message-ID: <839779.45941.qm@web39105.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Dear Vedvatiji, I am normally a critcizer of Hindu bashing but I find this to be strange. What has Pakistan to do with Indian Muslims, they are Indian citizens as we are and have the same rights as we have? And who has given this power to Balasaheb Thakre to send Indian Citizens to Pakistan? It is a different matter if some are willing to go on their own accord and Pakistan is ready to accept them.If the same is being done to Indians in Australia and North America why are we then troubled. In this Globalised world, such a thinking will definitely bring another partition. I find the Press to be also responsible for bringing such a division amongst citizens. Newspaper headings: "A Woman and DALIT becomes speaker for the first time" "Vahanvati is first MUSLIM Attorney General" Today's Times of India Front Page The emphasis is not the MERIT which has brought them to these levels, it is on Dalit and Muslim as if they have become eligible only now or they have been appointed as if the requirement was for a Dalit and a Muslim and no merit was required.That is one reason I am against reservations of any kind. The help/assistance needs only to be given for grooming. (A.K.MALIK) --- On Mon, 6/8/09, Vedavati Jogi wrote: > From: Vedavati Jogi > Subject: Re: [Reader-list] Fw: Re: i was stunned > To: "Venugopalan K M" > Cc: reader-list at sarai.net > Date: Monday, June 8, 2009, 7:07 PM > i don't speak for hindus, > i care for my nation! > this  socalled  philosophy of secularism and liberalism > is dividing the nation and disarming hindus > and i can't see my country being partitioned again . >   > once balasaheb thakare had said, if pakistan wants kashmir > (because kashmir is a muslim majority state) then they will > have to accept 20 crore muslim refugees from india too. >   > i support this statement. >   > vedavati > --- On Sun, 7/6/09, Venugopalan K M > wrote: > > > From: Venugopalan K M > Subject: Re: [Reader-list] Fw: Re: i was stunned > To: "sarai-list" > Date: Sunday, 7 June, 2009, 3:38 PM > > > Ignorance may be bliss; arrogance might be bliss as well, > at least until > someone gets held up for rash assumptions on others.. > However, certain manifestations of ignorance plus arrogance > are better to be > left as they are; I believe that will be healthy for people > on both sides of > the divide.. > Feel no temptation to dispute the contents here; > but who are you to speak for the entire Hindus in India,any > way? > > Peace and love, > Venu. > > On Sun, Jun 7, 2009 at 11:12 AM, Vedavati Jogi wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > good -that israel govt did not listen to you and > returned socalled occupied > > territories to palestinians. i never knew that there > are pseudo seculars in > > israel too (like india) > > > > you feel govt. of india should give autonomy to > kashmir, are you aware that > > kashmiri hindus have been thrown out of kashmir? > > do you find muslims so trustworthy that in autonomous, > muslims dominated > > state hindus can remain safe? > > > > whole pakistan is a muslim occupied india, are you > aware of that? > > > >  vedavati > > > > --- On Sun, 7/6/09, Alex Stein > wrote: > > > > > > From: Alex Stein > > Subject: Re: i was stunned > > To: "Vedavati Jogi" > > Date: Sunday, 7 June, 2009, 2:58 AM > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > 1. I think we should return the Occupied Territories > (West Bank, Gaza, East > > Jerusalem) to the Palestinian people. > > > > 2. I never said I speak for Kashmir. > > > > 3. I think the valley should be autonomous (nobody > should be removed from > > their homes). > > > > 4. That is for you and Pakistan to decide over the > course - hopefully one > > day - of peace negotiations. > > > > A > > > > > > falsedichotomies.com > > > > "The most radical and the only secure form of > possession is destruction, > > for only what we have destroyed is safely and forever > ours." Hannah Arendt > > > > > > > > --- On Sat, 6/6/09, Vedavati Jogi > wrote: > > > > > > From: Vedavati Jogi > > Subject: Re: i was stunned > > To: "Alex Stein" > > Date: Saturday, 6 June, 2009, 7:38 PM > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > hello alex, > > 1) will you give part of your country to any other > nation? > > 2) who has given you right to speak for kashmir? > > 3) if kashmir is given to muslims what about those > hindus who have been > > living there since last thousand years? > > 4) will you dare to tell pakistan to give our land > back? > > vedavati > > > > --- On Sun, 7/6/09, Alex Stein > wrote: > > > > > > From: Alex Stein > > Subject: Re: i was stunned > > To: "Vedavati Jogi" > > Date: Sunday, 7 June, 2009, 2:27 AM > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Hi Vedavti, > > Thanks for your email. > > We are not standing in opposition to Hindus. I deeply > love India, its > > culture and its people. I believe, though, that the > Kashmir people have a > > right to self-determination, just like anyone else, > and I believe that it is > > in India's interest to grant it to them, at least when > the time is right. > > Best wishes, > > Alex Stein > > > > PS - you may be interested in my blog of my travels in > India last summer - > > wanderingsatlan.blogspot.com > > > > > > falsedichotomies.com > > > > "The most radical and the only secure form of > possession is destruction, > > for only what we have destroyed is safely and forever > ours." Hannah Arendt > > > > > > > > --- On Fri, 5/6/09, Vedavati Jogi > wrote: > > > > > > From: Vedavati Jogi > > Subject: i was stunned > > To: alex.stein at talk21.com > > Date: Friday, 5 June, 2009, 7:10 AM > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > hello sir, > > > > i went thru. your article about 'jeuish-kashmiri > dialogue group > > honestly i was stunned. > > i believe you have been told absoluetly wrong > history. > > > >  do you know how much these kashmiri hindus have > suffered at the hands of > > muslims in kashmir? > > > > hindusthan is the only country which gave shelter to > people of your > > religion whole heartedly that was because hindusthan > is a hindu dominated > > country. > > i really wonder how can you try to befriend muslims, > basically how can you > > trust them? have you people not suffered at the hands > of muslims? > > have you not heard about 'muslim brotherhood'? > > rightnow, you may think that muslims in kashmir were > friendly with you > > hence they are nice. but are you sure that when you > fight with other muslim > > countries, these same kashmiri friends of yours will > support you against the > > latter? > > > > i sincerely feel, hindus, and not muslims  can be > your natural allies. > > > > vedavati > > india > > > > > > Own a website.Get an unlimited package.Pay next to > nothing.* Click here!. > > > > > > > > Explore and discover exciting holidays and getaways > with Yahoo! India > > Travel Click here! > > > > > > > > Explore and discover exciting holidays and getaways > with Yahoo! India > > Travel Click here! > > > > > >      Explore and discover exciting holidays and > getaways with Yahoo! India > > Travel http://in.travel.yahoo.com/ > > _________________________________________ > > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the > city. > > Critiques & Collaborations > > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net > with > > subscribe in the subject header. > > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > > List archive: > > > > > -- > http://venukm.blogspot.com/ > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the > city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net > with subscribe in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> > > >       Cricket on your mind? Visit the > ultimate cricket website. Enter http://beta.cricket.yahoo.com > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the > city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net > with subscribe in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> From aliens at dataone.in Tue Jun 9 12:07:17 2009 From: aliens at dataone.in (bipin) Date: Tue, 09 Jun 2009 12:07:17 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Hindu article References: <006e01c9e751$89062ba0$0201a8c0@limo> <1f9180970906070400r2e988177uc885c0c642a43bef@mail.gmail.com> <00f001c9e80d$f11c4370$0201a8c0@limo> <341380d00906080125s159c119du6580b5df5c72ad43@mail.gmail.com> <000e01c9e82d$367f1400$0201a8c0@limo> <341380d00906080510t749be918v73a29b7fd2151481@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <009101c9e8cc$bc8e61f0$0201a8c0@limo> Dear Anupam, I have already mentioned that if it's case in Godhra, area remain undeveloped for abusing reason the concerned authorities should be punished. If you are not reading it fully than its not my problem. I am learning ABC of politics and if you can teach me and become my Guru, I welcome you. Atleast you agreed that the massive riots took place on Chiman Patel, Madhavsinh rule days or not, clear first? If you do not know about anything no question of argument with you to go to root. However, if you agree that it happened than first go into details about how much long lasted and massive riot it was! The political leaders for their advantage and vote bank politics plays the riot card, it does not mean that Gujarati's are communal. It was open facts and discussed openly at that time that Indira encouraged the riot to remove Chiman Patel, the than CM, as he don't want to remain under her control. Such things can not have proof but a common man can easily understand such things. Since almost independence or may be after decade of independence, Gujarat has suffered injustice only as far as financial aid is concerned, though Gujarat's contribution was very high by way of taxes. This is the reason Gujarat has changed the rule of congress and brought alternative in the form of BJP well before anywhere in the India. This was realized by UPA govt. in their last tenure and so they gave much more aid compared to previous years/governments. I think you are not reading my post properly. I have never mentioned the exaggeration about Muslim treated as II class citizen. I have mentioned exaggeration of riot incidence was made. Actually there is no such treatment at all. This are all creations of few pseudo-secularists only. I think with your posting, you know much better about Gujarat than my home state. Glad to know this. I invite you to come and we can go anywhere to show me such treatment. Regarding noorani mahollah what you say if it is there I have already mentioned to punished such authority, which you have ignored and making the argument again. Gujarati's are communal. What a rubbish statement you are making. AS FAR AS GUJARAT IS CONCERNED YOU HAVE NO RIGHT TO MAKE ANY ARGUMENT FOR ANY MATTER WITH SUCH ABUSING STATEMENT. With such a statement, you are treating whole Gujarati community as II class citizen of India. You have to answer this first and than talk about Gujarat's Muslims. We are here to take care of our brother Gujarat Muslim and stop the interference in our Gujarat family. As you mentioned my religion, which in your eye is Hindu, so the yours also. Are you not Hindu? It would have been better you have mentioned our religion. THIS IS ALSO NON-SECULAR STAND!!! But problem is that you people don't understand the real secularism. As far as religion is concerned I believe only in Human RELIGION or DHARMA. Whenever some form to be filled up and asked about cast/religion, I am mentioning Human religion only. This I have already given earlier my definition of secularism mentioning again bellow. In India, I think, who speak for or create show to speak for minority is secular and who speak for majority is communal. This is the definition of secularism in India is prevailing. The real secularism is to give equal respect and treatment to all the religions (dharma). BUT, WHAT IS RELIGION or DHARMA? IT IS VERY COMPLICATED QUESTION. The real religion or dharma is the work you do honestly and sincerely allotted to you. For Ex. You have to take care of your new born child and make him/her self sufficient by giving good culture, education, discipline, fighting spirit etc. and instead of this if you remain in the activities like prayer in temples/mosque and devote the time after god only is not the real dharma you are adopting. You carry on your duty sincerely and honestly you have to do at the different stages of life is the real dharma or religion. I have already mentioned in my earlier communication with Taha and Rakesh, political analysis after independence, which you must have read it. If you want I can send you again. thanks Bipin ----- Original Message ----- From: "anupam chakravartty" To: "sarai list" Sent: Monday, June 08, 2009 5:40 PM Subject: Re: [Reader-list] Hindu article > dear bipin, > > im not talking about visiting signal faliya with a sense of fear or ecstacy > or any other feeling for that matter. you may have visited at night, which > is why you did not see what that area has been turned into. i think you are > blabbering absolute trash here, so there is no point arguing with you. > > i think with your shallow understanding of indian politics no argument is > possible because one hand you are saying that gujaratis are not communal > while, you accused Chimanbhai and Madhavsinh of communal rioting ...that too > against hindus. how misinformed ignorant can someone -- you are just the > best example. i urge to stop attending tv shows, meet people since you are > so bothered about change and other such things. > > i dont know which kind of development you talk about without even answering > fundamental questions being posed at you. you couldnt say anything about > noorani mohalla nor your arguments addresed thousands of missing people in > gujarat after the riots. > > also, i think you will really enjoy it when someone would make fun of your > religion, make mockery of it because as you have pointed out its > an exaggeration about muslims being treated as second class citizens. so i > think you are also exaggerating on other occasions when you point out plight > of kashmiri pandits. even as, people like modi from 2001 to 2009 kept on > using derogatory phrases against muslims in the public meeting. > > - anupam > > On 6/8/09, bipin wrote: > >> Dear Anupam, >> >> Glad to know that you know very well and met professor Bandukwala. To quote >> someone's view heard on TV debate show open forum is as good as his own >> views only. I heard their views many times in shows like Mukabala, Big fight >> and similar shows and I have mentioned their reference. >> >> I don't want to discuss the election politics issue in Godhra. Since in my >> discussion every time what I have opposed is vote bank politics only which >> after independent congress played very well every time. All the party are >> now following the same. If you want to say that its Muslim area and so >> development is not there is rubbish argument. and if it true, in case of >> Godhra as you mentioned, responsible authorities like Municipal Commissioner >> and other authorized person should be punished. My point is to go for >> development only. I had been once in Godhra and visited signal falia area >> also during night time with family without any fear. So, the other area of >> Godhra also. >> >> What example you have cited for outskirts of Vadodara city is the story of >> not Vadodara, but almost all the outskirts areas of the Indian cities/towns. >> That way we lac in infrastructure and that we have to do first as the >> development. Even in Ahmedabad, my home town where I stay, eastern outskirts >> area remain undeveloped since many years. However, that area improved much >> now and developed with all the facilities like better roads, drainage, water >> supply. >> >> You are mentioning Modi's comment for Mumbai police commissioner "that too >> Muslim" but on what contest he has spoken. Make comment after going through >> full speech what he said and just don't get into only two datas. As you >> mentioned I am not big fan's Modi, but I am fan of development and whoever >> does it I appreciate it and become fan of it. Whether it is Manmohan Singh, >> Sheila Dikshit, Shivrajsinh Chauhan. >> >> I am opposing the exaggeration made in case of Gujarat riots. Without go >> into the root of it, one cannot assess the real things. If you go to the >> history, the real state sponsored riot was played during congress rule in >> Gujarat by Chiman Patel and Madhavsinh Solanki, where Hindu suffered a lot. >> But since the Hindu was suffered no hallabol, no exaggeration was made!!! >> >> Thanks for your guidance how to get in Vadodara. For your information, I am >> visiting frequently to Vadodara and visited almost all the areas. >> >> thanks >> Bipin >> >> ----- Original Message ----- From: "anupam chakravartty" < >> c.anupam at gmail.com> >> To: "sarai list" >> Sent: Monday, June 08, 2009 1:55 PM >> Subject: Re: [Reader-list] Hindu article >> >> >> Bipin, >>> >>> Professor J.S. Bandukwala's house was attacked and burnt down by rioters >>> in >>> 2002. He is not that sort of a man who will tell you that he is treated >>> like >>> a second class citizen. That man has more books and guts which i am sure >>> modi or maya kodnani wouldnt able to withstand. That man continues to >>> write >>> against Modi government's policies and its attitude towards muslims, >>> stands >>> for the helpless. I am 100% sure you havent met him or know anything about >>> him. >>> >>> secondly, godhra remains as divided as it was. there is a municipal >>> election >>> on april 21 in the town. The BJP leadership has clearly spelt out that >>> they >>> dont care about those 9000-10000 votes from the muslim community in the >>> town. signal faliya, 1.5 kilometres away from Godha railway station, >>> mostly >>> comprising of the muslims doesnt have roads connecting the houses. during >>> the rains, the whole of the area remains submerged. on the other side of >>> the >>> railway station a few hundred meters ahead modi on march 17 unveiled a >>> former IAF jet as a symbol of defence and security in the country >>> completely >>> turning a blind eye towards signal faliya or polan bazar in godhra where >>> most of the muslims stay. contesting the municipal elections would be >>> murli >>> moolchandani, a VHP member, who was caught in the tehelka sting. >>> >>> third, noorani mohalla and K G park, two rehabilitatee colonies comprising >>> of riot affected muslims even now doesnt have water supply or any kinds of >>> roads leading to the houses. it is on the outskirts of Vadodara on ajwa >>> road. please do check it out when you can. it is worse than a >>> concentration >>> camp with families trying to dirt clogging up the drains and water from >>> the >>> refuse collecting right front of the houses. two kilometers ahead there is >>> a >>> hospital for lepers -- the refuse from that hospital also comes and >>> gathers >>> in the area. mind you its on the Ajwa road of Vadodara city. >>> >>> third, ward no 3 of halol municipality. the councillor, saleem meer ended >>> his fast yesterday (sunday) because all this years that place did not have >>> a >>> water connection while waters of Narmada has reached other nine wards of >>> the >>> town. ask the municipal board president, Nitin Shah about why there is a >>> neglect, he will give you prompt reply saying that "ye to yaha ke nahi >>> hai". >>> >>> >>> fourth, since you are big fan of modi, you must have heard him. if he is >>> talking about a police officer in his speech especially when he referred >>> to >>> mumbai police chief, gafoor, after 26/11 attacks, he said started his >>> statement saying a police officer *that too a muslim. *his attitude >>> continues to anti-muslim save for some of his muslim followers from >>> Surat (always used a propaganda too erase the riots with a statement such >>> as >>> shias and vohras are with modi and sunnis are the ones who create >>> problems) who after the riots accompanied him everywhere because they had >>> specific business interests. >>> >>> i think you have absolutely no idea of Gujarat. And also gujarati people >>> do >>> not neccessarily treat muslim people badly, however, the political >>> establishment has planned out its policies in such a way that they are >>> reduced to second class citizens. however, there are sucess stories, own >>> will power such as Prof Bandukwala which is independent and praiseworthy >>> and >>> should not be read in the context of treating someone as first class or >>> second class citizen. you are offcourse free to have your opinion, but i >>> would invite you to come and look around here in Vadodara. you can reply >>> back on this space. i will guide you how you can get to vadodara. >>> >>> -anupam >>> On 6/8/09, bipin wrote: >>> >>>> >>>> Dear Venugopalan, >>>> >>>> What happened in 2002 is very painful and full sympathy with those who >>>> died. Even in my earlier post, I have mentioned about this sad incidence. >>>> >>>> Refer the court findings and they scrolled Teesta in few occasions in >>>> Zahira case. I also of the opinion that those who are culprit must be >>>> punished and even Modi's involvement proved than also. Why I doubt Teesta >>>> working, since she never show her will to fight for the rights of Hindu, >>>> Sikh in Sikh riots, Kashmir Pundits in Kashmir, Bhagalpur victim, even >>>> she >>>> has not turned up in Nandigram, Singur. So how can one trust her >>>> neutrality? >>>> This is solid proof that she is working with guidance of their source of >>>> funds. >>>> >>>> What the Hindu article tells is general for Gujarat's Muslims treated as >>>> II >>>> class citizen is wrong. They are taking basis of about a lac (yet this is >>>> also doubtful figure) yet to return to their home (but why? no body has >>>> stopped them to return), the whole Gujarat Muslim community treated as II >>>> class citizen. Don't you think this is ridiculous? For a few part of >>>> community, you can not put generalize prediction for the community. The >>>> incidence happened before 7 years and few thousand don't return to their >>>> home and those whose homes has burned/destroyed, govt. has offered for >>>> rehabilitation way back but stopped by the wasted interest forces who >>>> wants >>>> to keep alive this issue forever! >>>> >>>> People of Gujarat (including Muslim community) has way back forgot this >>>> and >>>> started their routine work in very co-operative and friendly environment. >>>> Even leading Muslim figure/leader of Gujarat like Professor Bandukwala >>>> and >>>> many others has confirmed this way back and continue today telling in >>>> many >>>> open discussion forum. >>>> >>>> Mr. Venugopalan, I invite to come to Gujarat, I personally welcome you >>>> and >>>> take you to even Godhra where this incidence happened and see yourself >>>> whether you find any fear? Even I invite you with any of your Muslim >>>> friend >>>> to roam any part of Gujarat and verify yourself that anywhere Muslim is >>>> not >>>> at all treated as II class citizens. All the community stays in very >>>> harmony >>>> without any fear and grudges. >>>> >>>> Now what is going on is malicious propaganda against Gujarat and Gujarati >>>> community, nothing else. Whether you believe or not but this is hard >>>> truth. >>>> >>>> thanks >>>> Bipin >>>> >>>> ----- Original Message ----- >>>> From: Venugopalan K M >>>> To: sarai-list >>>> Sent: Sunday, June 07, 2009 4:30 PM >>>> Subject: Re: [Reader-list] Hindu article >>>> >>>> >>>> Dear Bipin, >>>> >>>> I'm afraid you are abusing he commonsense of everybody here. >>>> Why don't you dispute what is already given there on the basis of merit >>>> and substance? >>>> What do you mean by Chamchas of Teesta? >>>> And is what is so bad about Tessta and their "cottary"? >>>> >>>> About the Muslim citizens of Gujarat, again you arrogate to yourself >>>> the privilege of paassing a judgement! Of whom at least two thousand >>>> people >>>> were killed and over a lakh are reportedly yet to return to their homes >>>> since the organized crimes of post-Godhra 2002, if they are not being >>>> treated as second class citizens, are they being treated as >>>> non-citizens? >>>> Will you please check the truth for yourself rather than advising others >>>> to >>>> meet your Muslim friends in other states or to meet the 'aam Muslims' in >>>> Gujaratin your imagination? >>>> >>>> Or rather, do you mean that they are graciously being allowed by Modi to >>>> stay free of further fears of being targeted for killing and raping by >>>> Hindus? That case, you are wrong sir; instead, it is apparently because >>>> the >>>> killing hordes themselves had realized that Modi is not God to ensure >>>> them >>>> impunity and because they come to realize that Modi himself is under the >>>> shadow of trial under the IPC and the Cr PC for his culpability in what >>>> transpired after Godhra. >>>> >>>> >"they agree that their relatives are far happy and feel safety in >>>> >Gujarat" >>>> >>>> How cool! >>>> How strange of a people constituting about 1/5 th of the entire >>>> population >>>> confiding the secret to you being allowed to feel safe in their own lands >>>> and homes! >>>> >>>> Best, >>>> Venu. >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> On Sun, Jun 7, 2009 at 2:52 PM, bipin wrote: >>>> >>>> Dear All, >>>> >>>> Who ever written this article HIndu is base less and far from truth. It >>>> is totally false that Muslims are treated as second class citizen in >>>> Gujarat. You ask any aam Muslim in Gujarat (don't ask chamcha's of Teesta >>>> and their cottary) and you will have truth. >>>> >>>> Even I have many net Muslim friends from other states and on >>>> discussion, >>>> they agreed that their relatives in Gujarat are far happy and feel safety >>>> in >>>> Gujarat >>>> >>>> thanks >>>> BIPIN >>>> _________________________________________ >>>> reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. >>>> Critiques & Collaborations >>>> To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with >>>> subscribe in the subject header. >>>> To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list >>>> List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> -- >>>> http://venukm.blogspot.com/ >>>> _________________________________________ >>>> reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. >>>> Critiques & Collaborations >>>> To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with >>>> subscribe in the subject header. >>>> To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list >>>> List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> >>>> >>> _________________________________________ >>> reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. >>> Critiques & Collaborations >>> To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with >>> subscribe in the subject header. >>> To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list >>> List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> >>> >> >> > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with subscribe in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> From rakesh.rnbdj at gmail.com Tue Jun 9 12:30:41 2009 From: rakesh.rnbdj at gmail.com (Rakesh Iyer) Date: Tue, 9 Jun 2009 12:30:41 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Hindu article In-Reply-To: <009101c9e8cc$bc8e61f0$0201a8c0@limo> References: <006e01c9e751$89062ba0$0201a8c0@limo> <1f9180970906070400r2e988177uc885c0c642a43bef@mail.gmail.com> <00f001c9e80d$f11c4370$0201a8c0@limo> <341380d00906080125s159c119du6580b5df5c72ad43@mail.gmail.com> <000e01c9e82d$367f1400$0201a8c0@limo> <341380d00906080510t749be918v73a29b7fd2151481@mail.gmail.com> <009101c9e8cc$bc8e61f0$0201a8c0@limo> Message-ID: Dear Bipin jee Since you have mentioned religion and dharma, let me also state this: Religion and dharma are somewhat different. Religion is a fundamental set of beliefs and practices generally agreed upon by a group of people. These set of beliefs concern the cause, nature, and purpose of the universe, and involve devotional and ritual observances. They also often contain a moral code governing the conduct of human affairs. Since people have to agree on a set of practices here, it does involve politics, at a fundamental level, irrespective of whether we accept it or not. Dharma on the other hand, is a sense of duty. Probably the BJP may not like it, but dharma can't be the exact word for Religion in Hindi. Moreover, unlike religion, dharma can be personal. I hope you would have seen the film Swades. In that film, Mohan Bhargava (Shahrukh Khan's character) believes it's his duty (or dharma) to actually do something for the country, to help the people in the village Charanpur. Even in the Mahabharata, Krishna reminds Arjun of his duty as a kshatriya before the war starts. Similarly, at different stages, the word dharma comes up to remind people of their duties in the same epic. Hence, religion may involve a bit of dharma. But dharma involving religion, I don't think so. Dharma at best will involve faith. True religion which you have defined is only faith, not religion in any sense. True faith only involves dharma and belief; true religion involves much more than that. Regards Rakesh From kshmendra2005 at yahoo.com Tue Jun 9 13:57:31 2009 From: kshmendra2005 at yahoo.com (Kshmendra Kaul) Date: Tue, 9 Jun 2009 01:27:31 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Reader-list] Fw: Re: i was stunned Message-ID: <191808.64159.qm@web57205.mail.re3.yahoo.com> Dear AKM   Well said.   Kshmendra   --- On Tue, 6/9/09, A.K. Malik wrote: From kshmendra2005 at yahoo.com Tue Jun 9 13:58:20 2009 From: kshmendra2005 at yahoo.com (Kshmendra Kaul) Date: Tue, 9 Jun 2009 01:28:20 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Reader-list] Fw: Re: i was stunned Message-ID: <6469.7176.qm@web57201.mail.re3.yahoo.com> Dear AKM   Well said.   Kshmendra   --- On Tue, 6/9/09, A.K. Malik wrote: From: A.K. Malik Subject: Re: [Reader-list] Fw: Re: i was stunned To: "Vedavati Jogi" Cc: "Sarai List" Date: Tuesday, June 9, 2009, 11:06 AM Dear Vedvatiji,                I am normally a critcizer of Hindu bashing but I find this to be strange. What has Pakistan to do with Indian Muslims, they are Indian citizens as we are and have the same rights as we have? And who has given this power to Balasaheb Thakre to send Indian Citizens to Pakistan? It is a different matter if some are willing to go on their own accord and Pakistan is ready to accept them.If the same is being done to Indians in Australia and North America why are we then troubled. In this Globalised world, such a thinking will definitely bring another partition. I find the Press to be also responsible for bringing such a division amongst citizens. Newspaper headings: "A Woman and DALIT becomes speaker for the first time" "Vahanvati is first MUSLIM Attorney General"    Today's Times of India Front Page The emphasis is not the MERIT which has brought them to these levels, it is on Dalit and Muslim as if they have become eligible only now or they have been appointed as if the requirement was for a Dalit and a Muslim and no merit was required.That is one reason I am against reservations of any kind. The help/assistance needs  only to be given for grooming. (A.K.MALIK) --- On Mon, 6/8/09, Vedavati Jogi wrote: > From: Vedavati Jogi > Subject: Re: [Reader-list] Fw: Re: i was stunned > To: "Venugopalan K M" > Cc: reader-list at sarai.net > Date: Monday, June 8, 2009, 7:07 PM > i don't speak for hindus, > i care for my nation! > this  socalled  philosophy of secularism and liberalism > is dividing the nation and disarming hindus > and i can't see my country being partitioned again . >   > once balasaheb thakare had said, if pakistan wants kashmir > (because kashmir is a muslim majority state) then they will > have to accept 20 crore muslim refugees from india too. >   > i support this statement. >   > vedavati > --- On Sun, 7/6/09, Venugopalan K M > wrote: > > > From: Venugopalan K M > Subject: Re: [Reader-list] Fw: Re: i was stunned > To: "sarai-list" > Date: Sunday, 7 June, 2009, 3:38 PM > > > Ignorance may be bliss; arrogance might be bliss as well, > at least until > someone gets held up for rash assumptions on others.. > However, certain manifestations of ignorance plus arrogance > are better to be > left as they are; I believe that will be healthy for people > on both sides of > the divide.. > Feel no temptation to dispute the contents here; > but who are you to speak for the entire Hindus in India,any > way? > > Peace and love, > Venu. > > On Sun, Jun 7, 2009 at 11:12 AM, Vedavati Jogi wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > good -that israel govt did not listen to you and > returned socalled occupied > > territories to palestinians. i never knew that there > are pseudo seculars in > > israel too (like india) > > > > you feel govt. of india should give autonomy to > kashmir, are you aware that > > kashmiri hindus have been thrown out of kashmir? > > do you find muslims so trustworthy that in autonomous, > muslims dominated > > state hindus can remain safe? > > > > whole pakistan is a muslim occupied india, are you > aware of that? > > > >  vedavati > > > > --- On Sun, 7/6/09, Alex Stein > wrote: > > > > > > From: Alex Stein > > Subject: Re: i was stunned > > To: "Vedavati Jogi" > > Date: Sunday, 7 June, 2009, 2:58 AM > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > 1. I think we should return the Occupied Territories > (West Bank, Gaza, East > > Jerusalem) to the Palestinian people. > > > > 2. I never said I speak for Kashmir. > > > > 3. I think the valley should be autonomous (nobody > should be removed from > > their homes). > > > > 4. That is for you and Pakistan to decide over the > course - hopefully one > > day - of peace negotiations. > > > > A > > > > > > falsedichotomies.com > > > > "The most radical and the only secure form of > possession is destruction, > > for only what we have destroyed is safely and forever > ours." Hannah Arendt > > > > > > > > --- On Sat, 6/6/09, Vedavati Jogi > wrote: > > > > > > From: Vedavati Jogi > > Subject: Re: i was stunned > > To: "Alex Stein" > > Date: Saturday, 6 June, 2009, 7:38 PM > > From kiccovich at yahoo.com Tue Jun 9 14:00:01 2009 From: kiccovich at yahoo.com (francesca recchia) Date: Tue, 9 Jun 2009 01:30:01 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Reader-list] Account almost in verses of a trip to Lebanon Message-ID: <684778.63365.qm@web31706.mail.mud.yahoo.com> BEIRUT Appearance and forgetfulness Bullet holes on the walls recall the war Living by the day forgets the past The signs of religion design identity The signs of religion hide identity Veiled bodies and underdressed bodies sit one next to the other Buses are for poor people Old houses: wounded and abandoned New towers: glass steel concrete Many buildings look like old ladies with too much make up Time to arrive, time to leave: excess gives little space for thinking and understanding   TYRE Looking for the Phoenicians When you sleep in a lighthouse, the sound of the waves rocks you into sleep and wakes you up Palestine is not far away The fisherman Toni has big, tanned hands and cooks fish by the sea Carrots in water lemon and salt keep company to beer and sunset Sun burnt skin gives a sense of freedom United Nation troops are in Tyre to keep the peace United Nation troops are in Tyre to keep an eye on Israel   SIDON There are few traces of the Phoenicians left A hill of seashells is all we have to be reminded of the myth of the purple dye Crusaders built castles into the sea Lebanon is the land of Adonis, who was also called Tammuz or Eshmoun Eshmoun is Melqart’s brother. It seems that they both liked to eat children Archeological sites are the background of clandestine romantic dates: hands touch, lips get closer and closer, a hijiab is lifted by the wind   ON THE WAY TO BEITTEDINE A couple as ancient as time bake manakheesh on the side of the road: he has blue eyes; her hands and back are bent by the efforts   ZAHLE A traffic-less crossroad An old woman in a young body runs a hotel where time stopped too long ago In the vineyards of Ksara in the 1800s a Jesuit chases a fox that steals his chickens and discovers ancient underground tunnels   AANJAR Umayyad dynasty ruled for one hundred years and then the Abbasids defeated them   BAALBEC Grey lizards look like small dinosaurs Hezbollah and Jean Cocteau Gigantic stones and yellow and green flags francesca recchia kiccovich at yahoo.com it +39 338 166 3648 iq +964 (0) 750 7085 681 http://www.veleno.tv/bollettini/ From kshmendra2005 at yahoo.com Tue Jun 9 16:52:02 2009 From: kshmendra2005 at yahoo.com (Kshmendra Kaul) Date: Tue, 9 Jun 2009 04:22:02 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Reader-list] "Jemima Khan's broken country" Message-ID: <886946.77888.qm@web57201.mail.re3.yahoo.com> A very well written article with some saddening and some delightful imagery   Kshmendra     >From The Sunday Times June 7, 2009 "Jemima Khan's broken country" (In Pakistan, refugee children live with the trauma of having witnessed beheadings, yet she still finds much to beguile her) EXTRACTS:   - Ten men are lined up and each one is filmed talking inaudibly to camera. The first man is pinned to the ground by four others. His throat is slit like a goat at Eid and his head held aloft by his hair. The Urdu subtitle reads: “This is what happens to spies.” It's a Taliban home video — to jaunty music — of serial beheadings. There are plenty of these doing the rounds nowadays.   - Before I leave, Imran’s chowkidar (watchman) tells me that the newspapers in Pakistan are all funded by Yehudis (Jews). His Kalashnikov-toting commando — it’s the first time Imran has felt the need to have security — nods, adding that there are no Taliban. They are a fabrication by Jews and Hindus to destabilise Pakistan. He adjusts his belt of bullets.   - Pakistan pulsates with conspiracy theories. One, which has made it into the local newspapers, is that the Taliban when caught and stripped were revealed to have been “intact, not Muslims”, a euphemism for uncircumcised. (Pakistanis are big on euphemisms.) Their beards were stuck on with glue. “Foreign elements” (India) are suspected.   - Two children are fighting over coloured crayons when I arrive. A girl with blistered burns on her face from the sun shouts at a small boy who turns out to be her brother: “If you don’t give them back to me I’ll tell the Taliban and they’ll cut your throat.”   - According to the teacher in the camp, every child has witnessed public beheadings. Eight-year-old Amina explains quietly from behind her teacher how she saw her uncle’s stomach gouged out by the Taliban. Another girl’s mother was shot for not being in purdah. And another was shot at with her family when she was walking outside during the curfew. Seven-year-old Bisma, I’m told, has seen all the male members of her family hanged in what has become known as Bloody Square. She doesn’t speak.   - The children are equally afraid of the army. There’s a joke going round: “What’s worse than being ruled by the Taliban? Being saved by the Pakistani army.” When the chief minister landed in a helicopter next to the camp a few days ago, I’m told, the children fled screaming in terror to their tents.   - A boy called Salman hands me a precisely drawn and signed picture of a Kalashnikov. A shy eight-year-old girl sitting cross-legged next to him, with her grubby green dupatta half obscuring her smile, offers me hers of a helicopter shelling a village. “That’s my house,” she says, pointing to some scribbled rubble.   - Their schools and homes have been destroyed. All have had relatives killed. An orphanage in Mingora was caught in the crossfire when soldiers based themselves on the roof of the building with 200 children trapped inside.   - There’s certainly support for the Taliban in the camps. They represent, for many, an opposing force to an army that “drones” (it's now a verb here) its own people. America’s war on terror, supported by the Pakistani army, is unanimously viewed here as a war on Islam. Newborn twins have been named Sufi Mohammad and Fazlullah after the two militant leaders in Swat.   - You need only to read Salman Rushdie’s Shame to understand how important honour (izzat) and reputation are — although I shouldn’t really write that. The last time I admitted to having read Rushdie (for my university dissertation on post-colonial literature), I had a thousand placard-waving beards outside my door and adverts in the papers, calling me an apostate and demanding that my citizenship be revoked.   - Like everyone here he likes to opine: where Pakistan has gone wrong, where politicians have gone wrong, where the interpreters of Islam have gone wrong, where Imran has gone wrong and, by the end of our stay, where I’ve gone wrong. He also loves to eat, usually after midnight.   - JP, a film-maker friend, is here to research a film about Pakistan. We head for tea with Iqbal Hussein, who paints dancing girls from the red-light district for a living. His mother was a prostitute.   - As we arrive he is packing up his paints. His models, two gypsy sisters, one clutching a baby, are sitting quietly motionless on a mattress in a dark, windowless back room in his studio. Every half an hour in Pakistan there’s “load shedding”, when the electricity cuts out.   - We sit in candlelight in the thick, still heat and the girls sing classical songs, using upturned metal cups as instruments. Chewing betel nut, they giggle and reveal red-stained teeth. We cheer and clap and chuck rupees in appreciation.   -  He shows me a video on his mobile phone of his five-year-old son performing qawwali. He has been training the child since he was two. The little boy sits cross-legged on a chintzy sofa, raises his tiny palms to heaven imploringly, closes his eyes and starts to sing, smashing his hands back down on make-believe tublas and throwing his head back in mock ecstasy with all the passion and panache of his ancestors.   - She tells us that Indians are all “cry babies” and Muslims would do better to be cry babies, too, and that way gain equal levels of sympathy abroad. I like her forthrightness. She says things others wouldn’t dare to say here, albeit euphemistically.   - Pakistani actresses and models have traditionally emerged from the red-light area. They must have “friends”, she adds for good measure. Dosti (friendship) is a euphemism for client, while shadi (marriage) means sex with a client.   - The airport was the first glimpse I had of Pakistan all those years ago. It’s the country I feel I grew up in and was a part of, arriving at 20 and emerging a decade later a more questioning and conflicted person. I am still maddened by its faults but I bristle and become defensive if others criticise.   - As we’re jostled along towards the check-in area, I think about Pakistani society. It is an endless contradiction — hostile and hospitable, euphemistic and unambiguous, spiritual and prescriptive, aggressor and victim. Nothing sums up its topsy-turvy nature quite like the Heera Mandi in Lahore, one of the most conservative cities, where the prostitutes wear burqas and girls with honour dress like Wags.   http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/world/asia/article6446446.ece?token=null&offset=0&page=1   From nagraj.adve at gmail.com Tue Jun 9 16:59:53 2009 From: nagraj.adve at gmail.com (Nagraj Adve) Date: Tue, 9 Jun 2009 16:59:53 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Fwd: [chhattisgarh-net] Chomsky on Obama's Cairo Speech In-Reply-To: <004e01c9e723$7ac3e560$704bb020$@com> References: <004e01c9e723$7ac3e560$704bb020$@com> Message-ID: <564b2fca0906090429k107b761g8a0996d58ac8d441@mail.gmail.com> Excuse any multiple postings. Naga ---------- Forwarded message ---------- From: V R Raman Date: 7 Jun 2009 09:20 Subject: [chhattisgarh-net] Chomsky on Obama's Cairo Speech To: friends at ramansmailinglist.net *Hope one would like to go through, especially when the Cairo speech has been highly celebrated by the world media. Raman* *Chomsky: What Obama Didn't Say in His Cairo Address Speaks Volumes About His Mideast Policy* *By Noam Chomsky , AlterNet. Posted June 4, 2009 .* *The U.S. has played a decisive role in sustaining the Israeli-Palestinian conflict. Obama gave no indication that its role should change.** ** * A CNN headline, reporting Obama's plans for his June 4 address in Cairo, Egypt, reads "Obama looks to reach the soul of the Muslim world." Perhaps that captures his intent, but more significant is the content hidden in the rhetorical stance, or more accurately, omitted. Keeping just to Israel-Palestine -- there was nothing substantive about anything else -- Obama called on Arabs and Israelis not to "point fingers" at each other or to "see this conflict only from one side or the other." There is, however, a third side, that of the United States, which has played a decisive role in sustaining the current conflict. Obama gave no indication that its role should change or even be considered. Those familiar with the history will rationally conclude, then, that Obama will continue in the path of unilateral U.S. rejectionism. Obama once again praised the Arab Peace Initiative, saying only that Arabs should see it as "an important beginning, but not the end of their responsibilities." How should the Obama administration see it? Obama and his advisers are surely aware that the initiative reiterates the longstanding international consensus calling for a two-state settlement on the international (pre-June 1967) border, perhaps with "minor and mutual modifications," to borrow U.S. government usage before it departed sharply from world opinion in the 1970s. That's when the U.S. vetoed a U.N. Security Council resolution backed by the Arab "confrontation states" (Egypt, Iran, Syria), and tacitly by the PLO, with the same essential content as the Arab Peace Initiative, except that the latter goes beyond by calling on Arab states to normalize relations with Israel in the context of this political deal. Obama has called on the Arab states to proceed with normalization, studiously ignoring, however, the crucial political settlement that is its precondition. The initiative cannot be a "beginning" if the U.S. continues to refuse to accept its core principles, even to acknowledge them. In the background is the Obama administration's goal, enunciated most clearly by Sen. John Kerry, D-Mass., chairman of the Senate Foreign Relations Committee, to forge an alliance of Israel and the "moderate" Arab states against Iran. The term "moderate" has nothing to do with the character of the state, but rather signals its willingness to conform to U.S. demands. What is Israel to do in return for Arab steps to normalize relations? The strongest position so far enunciated by the Obama administration is that Israel should conform to Phase I of the 2003 Road Map, which states: "Israel freezes all settlement activity (including natural growth of settlements) ." All sides claim to accept the Road Map, overlooking the fact that Israel instantly added 14 reservations that render it inoperable. Overlooked in the debate over settlements is that even if Israel were to accept Phase I of the Road Map, that would leave in place the entire settlement project that has already been developed, with decisive U.S. support, to ensure that Israel will take over the valuable land within the illegal "separation wall" (including the primary water supplies of the region), as well as the Jordan Valley, thus imprisoning what is left, which is being broken up into cantons by settlement/infrastr ucture salients extending far to the east. Unmentioned as well is that Israel is taking over Greater Jerusalem, the site of its major current development programs, displacing many Arabs, so that what remains to Palestinians will be separated from the center of their cultural, economic and sociopolitical life. Also unmentioned is that all of this is in violation of international law, as conceded by the government of Israel after the 1967 conquest, and reaffirmed by Security Council resolutions and the International Court of Justice. Also unmentioned are Israel's successful operations since 1991 to separate the West Bank from Gaza, since turned into a prison where survival is barely possible, further undermining the hopes for a viable Palestinian state. It is worth remembering that there has been one break in U.S.-Israeli rejectionism. President Clinton recognized that the terms he had offered at the failed 2000 Camp David meetings were not acceptable to any Palestinians, and in December, proposed his "parameters," vague but more forthcoming. He then announced that both sides had accepted the parameters, although both had reservations. Israeli and Palestinian negotiators met in Taba, Egypt, to iron out the differences, and made considerable progress. A full resolution could have been reached in a few more days, they announced in their final joint press conference. But Israel called off the negotiations prematurely, and they have not been formally resumed. The single exception indicates that if an American president is willing to tolerate a meaningful diplomatic settlement, it can very likely be reached. It is also worth remembering that the George W. Bush administration went a bit beyond words in objecting to illegal Israeli settlement projects, namely, by withholding U.S. economic support for them. In contrast, Obama administration officials stated that such measures are "not under discussion," and that any pressures on Israel to conform to the Road Map will be "largely symbolic," the *New York Times* reported (Helene Cooper, June 1). There is more to say, but it does not relieve the grim picture that Obama has been painting, with a few extra touches in his widely heralded address to the Muslim World in Cairo on June 4. __._,_.___ Messages in this topic (1) Reply (via web post) | Start a new topic Messages Visit our website: http://www.cgnet.in MARKETPLACE $9000/Month at Home. Learn how Part Time, online!. ------------------------------ I made $5,827 last week.. Find out How. Part Time!. ------------------------------ Mom Power: Discover the community of moms doing more for their families, for the world and for each other [image: Yahoo! Groups] Change settings via the Web(Yahoo! ID required) Change settings via email: Switch delivery to Daily Digest| Switch format to Traditional Visit Your Group | Yahoo! Groups Terms of Use | Unsubscribe Recent Activity - 15 New Members Visit Your Group Yahoo! Finance It's Now Personal Guides, news, advice & more. Yahoo! Groups Mom Power Discover doing more for your family Weight Loss Group on Yahoo! Groups Get support and make friends online. . __,_._,___ From 2tahamehmood at googlemail.com Tue Jun 9 20:12:39 2009 From: 2tahamehmood at googlemail.com (Taha Mehmood) Date: Tue, 9 Jun 2009 15:42:39 +0100 Subject: [Reader-list] News Items posted on the net on Multipurpose National Identity Cards-125 Message-ID: <65be9bf40906090742s38dc730fm7f095354363a08b3@mail.gmail.com> http://www.futuregov.net/articles/2009/may/26/identity-card-project-piloted-southern-india/ Central Government, Local Government Identity card piloted in southern India By Alice Kok | 26 May 2009 The southern Indian state Karnataka has been chosen as the pilot location to implement the central government’s National Unique Identity (UID) project. The aim of the UID programme is to provide an identity card for every citizen to establish citizenship and address security concerns. The programme in Karnataka is being carried out by the Department of e-governance, which is in the process of identifying two districts — one urban, one rural — to gather databases and check their compatibility. The UID programme is part of the ongoing Multi-Purpose National Identity Card (MNIC) scheme—aimed at issuing identification cards to citizens living in India’s coastal villages by 2010. The government wants to distinguish between citizens and non-citizens living in coastal areas. The National Authority for Unique Identity (NAUI), set up under the Planning Commission, will work in coordination with the office of the Registrar General of India (RGI), which has been working on the National Population Register. The identity cards issued will be smart cards containing information on each individual along with finger biometrics as well as a photograph. A unique National Identity Number will be assigned to each individual including those below 18 years of age. Karnataka was chosen as a pilot state because the state has a relatively good user database. The exercise pull in information from the Department of Food and Civil Supplies, Women and Child Welfare Department and the electoral roll. The pilot programme will be completed in three months. From 2tahamehmood at googlemail.com Tue Jun 9 20:18:49 2009 From: 2tahamehmood at googlemail.com (Taha Mehmood) Date: Tue, 9 Jun 2009 15:48:49 +0100 Subject: [Reader-list] MNIC: Parliament Questions - 20 Message-ID: <65be9bf40906090748k3e51e41bwe9f2ec282bc6bb03@mail.gmail.com> http://164.100.47.132/psearch/QResult13.aspx?qref=19629 GOVERNMENT OF INDIA MINISTRY OF HOME AFFAIRS LOK SABHA UNSTARRED QUESTION NO 3426 ANSWERED ON 20.03.2001 PHOTO IDENTITY CARDS 3426 . Shri SURESH RAMRAO JADHAV (PATIL) (a) whether the Government propose to issue Photo Identity Cards to all the foreign nationals residing in India; (b) if so, the details thereof; and (c) the time by which these cards are likely to be issued to them? ANSWER THE MINISTER OF STATE IN THE MINISTRY OF HOME AFFAIRS ( CH. VIDYASAGAR RAO ) (a)to(c): A proposal for compulsory registration of all citizens and non-citizens residing in India and for issue of Multipurpose National Identity Cards to the citizens has been under consideration of the Government. A feasibility study has also been conducted by a professional consultancy firm in this regard. No final decision has been taken in the matter so far. From kmvenuannur at gmail.com Tue Jun 9 20:39:13 2009 From: kmvenuannur at gmail.com (Venugopalan K M) Date: Tue, 9 Jun 2009 20:39:13 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Fw: Re: i was stunned In-Reply-To: <191808.64159.qm@web57205.mail.re3.yahoo.com> References: <191808.64159.qm@web57205.mail.re3.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <1f9180970906090809m5b0d9ea5k7a401666f52515e4@mail.gmail.com> >"once balasaheb thakare had said, if pakistan wants kashmir (because kashmir is a muslim majority state) then they will have to accept 20 crore muslim refugees from india too. i support this statement."(statement by Vedavati Jogi) And can anybody say who is that person Vedavati was referring to?Going back to that post, I guessed it could be a a two in one - of Balasaheb Devaras(RSS former Chief) and Bal Thakkre(Shiva Sena supremo), in an imaginary new avtar! called" Balasabeb Thakkre"!! Perhaps the stuff is more that matters than name/names! Venu. On Tue, Jun 9, 2009 at 1:57 PM, Kshmendra Kaul wrote: > Dear AKM > > Well said. > > Kshmendra > > > --- On Tue, 6/9/09, A.K. Malik wrote: > > > > > > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > subscribe in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: > -- http://venukm.blogspot.com/ From rakesh.rnbdj at gmail.com Tue Jun 9 21:24:31 2009 From: rakesh.rnbdj at gmail.com (Rakesh Iyer) Date: Tue, 9 Jun 2009 21:24:31 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Fw: Re: i was stunned In-Reply-To: <1f9180970906090809m5b0d9ea5k7a401666f52515e4@mail.gmail.com> References: <191808.64159.qm@web57205.mail.re3.yahoo.com> <1f9180970906090809m5b0d9ea5k7a401666f52515e4@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: Dear Vedavati jee At least now please be open minded and understand that this hatred of Indian Muslims is not going to help you. This hatred starts from childhood and continues till old age, and will spread to future generations; it's a generational disease as vicious as AIDS. Please get rid of it, it is curable, unlike AIDS. And it doesn't involve any expenditure. Regards Rakesh From vedavati_jogi at yahoo.com Wed Jun 10 10:21:14 2009 From: vedavati_jogi at yahoo.com (Vedavati Jogi) Date: Wed, 10 Jun 2009 10:21:14 +0530 (IST) Subject: [Reader-list] Fw: Re: i was stunned Message-ID: <322292.18265.qm@web94701.mail.in2.yahoo.com> thank you mr. malik for this mail. i know you are not a pseudo-secular, 'liberal' or 'thinker' etc. still you did not like the  idea of throwing muslims out of this country.   this is the difference between hindus & muslims!  trust me i wanted to prove this to all.   majority of muslims in pakistan or bangladesh, kashmir  even india, don't show this magnonimity towards hindus. i have not seen any muslim leader caring for hindu migrants from kashmir.   yet sickulars in india keep talking about 'sufferings of muslims in india' this continuous hindubashing is responsible for creating gulf between citizens of different faiths in india .   i am not a religious fanatic,  i would never want to throw any common citizen (irrespective of his or her faith) to be thrown out of this country. i possess great respect for dr. kalam, i just loved rafi, madhubala, i love to listen to jakir hussain's tabla and like to watch irfan pathan's game. list is very big!   vedavati           --- On Tue, 9/6/09, A.K. Malik wrote: From: A.K. Malik Subject: Re: [Reader-list] Fw: Re: i was stunned To: "Vedavati Jogi" Cc: "Sarai List" Date: Tuesday, 9 June, 2009, 1:36 PM Dear Vedvatiji,                I am normally a critcizer of Hindu bashing but I find this to be strange. What has Pakistan to do with Indian Muslims, they are Indian citizens as we are and have the same rights as we have? And who has given this power to Balasaheb Thakre to send Indian Citizens to Pakistan? It is a different matter if some are willing to go on their own accord and Pakistan is ready to accept them.If the same is being done to Indians in Australia and North America why are we then troubled. In this Globalised world, such a thinking will definitely bring another partition. I find the Press to be also responsible for bringing such a division amongst citizens. Newspaper headings: "A Woman and DALIT becomes speaker for the first time" "Vahanvati is first MUSLIM Attorney General"    Today's Times of India Front Page The emphasis is not the MERIT which has brought them to these levels, it is on Dalit and Muslim as if they have become eligible only now or they have been appointed as if the requirement was for a Dalit and a Muslim and no merit was required.That is one reason I am against reservations of any kind. The help/assistance needs  only to be given for grooming. (A.K.MALIK) --- On Mon, 6/8/09, Vedavati Jogi wrote: > From: Vedavati Jogi > Subject: Re: [Reader-list] Fw: Re: i was stunned > To: "Venugopalan K M" > Cc: reader-list at sarai.net > Date: Monday, June 8, 2009, 7:07 PM > i don't speak for hindus, > i care for my nation! > this  socalled  philosophy of secularism and liberalism > is dividing the nation and disarming hindus > and i can't see my country being partitioned again . >   > once balasaheb thakare had said, if pakistan wants kashmir > (because kashmir is a muslim majority state) then they will > have to accept 20 crore muslim refugees from india too. >   > i support this statement. >   > vedavati > --- On Sun, 7/6/09, Venugopalan K M > wrote: > > > From: Venugopalan K M > Subject: Re: [Reader-list] Fw: Re: i was stunned > To: "sarai-list" > Date: Sunday, 7 June, 2009, 3:38 PM > > > Ignorance may be bliss; arrogance might be bliss as well, > at least until > someone gets held up for rash assumptions on others.. > However, certain manifestations of ignorance plus arrogance > are better to be > left as they are; I believe that will be healthy for people > on both sides of > the divide.. > Feel no temptation to dispute the contents here; > but who are you to speak for the entire Hindus in India,any > way? > > Peace and love, > Venu. > > On Sun, Jun 7, 2009 at 11:12 AM, Vedavati Jogi wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > good -that israel govt did not listen to you and > returned socalled occupied > > territories to palestinians. i never knew that there > are pseudo seculars in > > israel too (like india) > > > > you feel govt. of india should give autonomy to > kashmir, are you aware that > > kashmiri hindus have been thrown out of kashmir? > > do you find muslims so trustworthy that in autonomous, > muslims dominated > > state hindus can remain safe? > > > > whole pakistan is a muslim occupied india, are you > aware of that? > > > >  vedavati > > > > --- On Sun, 7/6/09, Alex Stein > wrote: > > > > > > From: Alex Stein > > Subject: Re: i was stunned > > To: "Vedavati Jogi" > > Date: Sunday, 7 June, 2009, 2:58 AM > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > 1. I think we should return the Occupied Territories > (West Bank, Gaza, East > > Jerusalem) to the Palestinian people. > > > > 2. I never said I speak for Kashmir. > > > > 3. I think the valley should be autonomous (nobody > should be removed from > > their homes). > > > > 4. That is for you and Pakistan to decide over the > course - hopefully one > > day - of peace negotiations. > > > > A > > > > > > falsedichotomies.com > > > > "The most radical and the only secure form of > possession is destruction, > > for only what we have destroyed is safely and forever > ours." Hannah Arendt > > > > > > > > --- On Sat, 6/6/09, Vedavati Jogi > wrote: > > > > > > From: Vedavati Jogi > > Subject: Re: i was stunned > > To: "Alex Stein" > > Date: Saturday, 6 June, 2009, 7:38 PM > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > hello alex, > > 1) will you give part of your country to any other > nation? > > 2) who has given you right to speak for kashmir? > > 3) if kashmir is given to muslims what about those > hindus who have been > > living there since last thousand years? > > 4) will you dare to tell pakistan to give our land > back? > > vedavati > > > > --- On Sun, 7/6/09, Alex Stein > wrote: > > > > > > From: Alex Stein > > Subject: Re: i was stunned > > To: "Vedavati Jogi" > > Date: Sunday, 7 June, 2009, 2:27 AM > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Hi Vedavti, > > Thanks for your email. > > We are not standing in opposition to Hindus. I deeply > love India, its > > culture and its people. I believe, though, that the > Kashmir people have a > > right to self-determination, just like anyone else, > and I believe that it is > > in India's interest to grant it to them, at least when > the time is right. > > Best wishes, > > Alex Stein > > > > PS - you may be interested in my blog of my travels in > India last summer - > > wanderingsatlan.blogspot.com > > > > > > falsedichotomies.com > > > > "The most radical and the only secure form of > possession is destruction, > > for only what we have destroyed is safely and forever > ours." Hannah Arendt > > > > > > > > --- On Fri, 5/6/09, Vedavati Jogi > wrote: > > > > > > From: Vedavati Jogi > > Subject: i was stunned > > To: alex.stein at talk21.com > > Date: Friday, 5 June, 2009, 7:10 AM > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > hello sir, > > > > i went thru. your article about 'jeuish-kashmiri > dialogue group > > honestly i was stunned. > > i believe you have been told absoluetly wrong > history. > > > >  do you know how much these kashmiri hindus have > suffered at the hands of > > muslims in kashmir? > > > > hindusthan is the only country which gave shelter to > people of your > > religion whole heartedly that was because hindusthan > is a hindu dominated > > country. > > i really wonder how can you try to befriend muslims, > basically how can you > > trust them? have you people not suffered at the hands > of muslims? > > have you not heard about 'muslim brotherhood'? > > rightnow, you may think that muslims in kashmir were > friendly with you > > hence they are nice. but are you sure that when you > fight with other muslim > > countries, these same kashmiri friends of yours will > support you against the > > latter? > > > > i sincerely feel, hindus, and not muslims  can be > your natural allies. > > > > vedavati > > india > > > > > > Own a website.Get an unlimited package.Pay next to > nothing.* Click here!. > > > > > > > > Explore and discover exciting holidays and getaways > with Yahoo! India > > Travel Click here! > > > > > > > > Explore and discover exciting holidays and getaways > with Yahoo! India > > Travel Click here! > > > > > >      Explore and discover exciting holidays and > getaways with Yahoo! India > > Travel http://in.travel.yahoo.com/ > > _________________________________________ > > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the > city. > > Critiques & Collaborations > > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net > with > > subscribe in the subject header. > > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > > List archive: > > > > > -- > http://venukm.blogspot.com/ > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the > city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net > with subscribe in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> > > >       Cricket on your mind? Visit the > ultimate cricket website. Enter http://beta.cricket.yahoo.com > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the > city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net > with subscribe in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> Own a website.Get an unlimited package.Pay next to nothing.*Go to http://in.business.yahoo.com/ From akmalik45 at yahoo.com Wed Jun 10 11:18:23 2009 From: akmalik45 at yahoo.com (A.K. Malik) Date: Tue, 9 Jun 2009 22:48:23 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Reader-list] Fw: Re: i was stunned Message-ID: <82590.88978.qm@web39107.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Hi, I agree and respect your views. I have rarely seen any muslim leader or others criticizing any wrong being done by people of their own faith except Hindus of course most of whom cry more for any atrocity on persons of specific religion and remain silent when it is on persons of their own religion. There are thousands of so called seculars who have condemned post Godhra violence, very few for Godhra incident and almost none for atrocities on Kashmiri Hindus. You are not "secular" unless you kick people of your own faith whether wrong or right is immaterial. Regards, (A.K.MALIK) --- On Wed, 6/10/09, Vedavati Jogi wrote: > From: Vedavati Jogi > Subject: Re: [Reader-list] Fw: Re: i was stunned > To: "A.K. Malik" > Cc: reader-list at sarai.net > Date: Wednesday, June 10, 2009, 10:21 AM > thank you mr. malik for this > mail. i know you are not a pseudo-secular, 'liberal' > or 'thinker' etc. > still you did not like the  idea of > throwing muslims out of this country. >   > this is the difference between hindus & > muslims!  trust me i wanted to prove this to all. >   > majority of muslims in pakistan or bangladesh, kashmir >  even india, don't show this magnonimity towards > hindus. i have not seen any muslim leader caring for hindu > migrants from kashmir. >   > yet sickulars in india keep talking about > 'sufferings of muslims in india' > this continuous hindubashing is responsible for > creating gulf between citizens of different faiths in india > . >   > i am not a religious fanatic,  i would never want > to throw any common citizen (irrespective of his or her > faith) to be thrown out of this country. i possess great > respect for dr. kalam, i just loved rafi, madhubala, i love > to listen to jakir hussain's tabla and like to watch > irfan pathan's game. list is very big! >   > vedavati >   >   >   >   >   > > --- On Tue, 9/6/09, A.K. Malik > wrote: > > > From: A.K. Malik > Subject: Re: [Reader-list] Fw: Re: i was stunned > To: "Vedavati Jogi" > > Cc: "Sarai List" > Date: Tuesday, 9 June, 2009, 1:36 PM > > > > Dear Vedvatiji, >             >    I am normally a critcizer of Hindu bashing > but I find this to be strange. What has Pakistan to do with > Indian Muslims, they are Indian citizens as we are and have > the same rights as we have? And who has given this power to > Balasaheb Thakre to send Indian Citizens to Pakistan? It is > a different matter if some are willing to go on their own > accord and Pakistan is ready to accept them.If the same is > being done to Indians in Australia and North America why are > we then troubled. > In this Globalised world, such a thinking will definitely > bring another partition. > I find the Press to be also responsible for bringing such a > division amongst citizens. Newspaper headings: > "A Woman and DALIT becomes speaker for the first > time" > "Vahanvati is first MUSLIM Attorney > General"    Today's Times of India Front > Page > The emphasis is not the MERIT > which has brought them to these levels, it is on Dalit and > Muslim as if they have become eligible only now or they have > been appointed as if the requirement was for a Dalit and a > Muslim and no merit was required.That is one reason I am > against reservations of any kind. The help/assistance > needs  only to be given for grooming. > > (A.K.MALIK) > > > --- On Mon, 6/8/09, Vedavati Jogi > wrote: > > > From: Vedavati Jogi > > Subject: Re: [Reader-list] Fw: Re: i was stunned > > To: "Venugopalan K M" > > Cc: reader-list at sarai.net > > Date: Monday, June 8, 2009, 7:07 PM > > i don't speak for hindus, > > i care for my nation! > > this  socalled  philosophy of secularism and > liberalism > > is dividing the nation and disarming hindus > > and i can't see my country being partitioned again > . > >   > > once balasaheb thakare had said, if pakistan wants > kashmir > > (because kashmir is a muslim majority state) then they > will > > have to accept 20 crore muslim refugees from india > too. > >   > > i support this statement. > >   > > vedavati > > --- On Sun, 7/6/09, Venugopalan K M > > wrote: > > > > > > From: Venugopalan K M > > Subject: Re: [Reader-list] Fw: Re: i was stunned > > To: "sarai-list" > > Date: Sunday, 7 June, 2009, 3:38 PM > > > > > > Ignorance may be bliss; arrogance might be bliss as > well, > > at least until > > someone gets held up for rash assumptions on others.. > > However, certain manifestations of ignorance plus > arrogance > > are better to be > > left as they are; I believe that will be healthy for > people > > on both sides of > > the divide.. > > Feel no temptation to > dispute the contents here; > > but who are you to speak for the entire Hindus in > India,any > > way? > > > > Peace and love, > > Venu. > > > > On Sun, Jun 7, 2009 at 11:12 AM, Vedavati Jogi wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > good -that israel govt did not listen to you and > > returned socalled occupied > > > territories to palestinians. i never knew that > there > > are pseudo seculars in > > > israel too (like india) > > > > > > you feel govt. of india should give autonomy to > > kashmir, are you aware that > > > kashmiri hindus have been thrown out of kashmir? > > > do you find muslims so > trustworthy that in autonomous, > > muslims dominated > > > state hindus can remain safe? > > > > > > whole pakistan is a muslim occupied india, are > you > > aware of that? > > > > > >  vedavati > > > > > > --- On Sun, 7/6/09, Alex Stein > > wrote: > > > > > > > > > From: Alex Stein > > > Subject: Re: i was stunned > > > To: "Vedavati Jogi" > > > Date: Sunday, 7 June, 2009, 2:58 AM > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > 1. I think we should return the Occupied > Territories > > (West Bank, Gaza, East > > > Jerusalem) to the Palestinian people. > > > > > > 2. I never said I speak for Kashmir. > > > > > > 3. I think the valley should be autonomous > (nobody > > should be removed from > > > their homes). > > > > > > 4. That is for you and Pakistan to decide over > the > > course - hopefully one > > > day - of peace negotiations. > > > > > > A > > > > > > > > > falsedichotomies.com > > > > > > "The most radical and the only secure form > of > > possession is destruction, > > > for only what we have destroyed is safely and > forever > > ours." Hannah Arendt > > > > > > > > > > > > --- On Sat, 6/6/09, Vedavati Jogi > > wrote: > > > > > > > > > From: Vedavati Jogi > > > Subject: Re: i was stunned > > > To: "Alex Stein" > > > Date: Saturday, 6 June, 2009, 7:38 PM > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > hello alex, > > > 1) will you give part of your country to any > other > > nation? > > > 2) who has given you right to speak for kashmir? > > > 3) if kashmir is given to muslims what about > those > > hindus who have been > > > living there since last thousand years? > > > 4) will you dare to tell pakistan to give our > land > > back? > > > vedavati > > > > > > --- On Sun, 7/6/09, Alex Stein > > wrote: > > > > > > > > > From: Alex Stein > > > Subject: Re: i was stunned > > > To: "Vedavati Jogi" > > > Date: Sunday, 7 June, 2009, 2:27 AM > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Hi Vedavti, > > > Thanks for your email. > > > We are not standing in opposition to Hindus. I > deeply > > love India, its > > > culture and its people. I believe, though, that > the > > Kashmir people have a > > > right to self-determination, just like anyone > else, > > and I believe that it is > > > in India's interest to grant it to them, at > least when > > the time is right. > > > Best wishes, > > > Alex Stein > > > > > > PS - you may be interested in my blog of my > travels in > > India last summer - > > > wanderingsatlan.blogspot.com > > > > > > > > > falsedichotomies.com > > > > > > "The most radical and the only secure form > of > > possession is destruction, > > > for only what we have destroyed is safely and > forever > > ours." Hannah Arendt > > > > > > > > > > > > > --- On Fri, 5/6/09, Vedavati Jogi > > wrote: > > > > > > > > > From: Vedavati Jogi > > > Subject: i was stunned > > > To: alex.stein at talk21.com > > > Date: Friday, 5 June, 2009, 7:10 AM > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > hello sir, > > > > > > i went thru. your article about > 'jeuish-kashmiri > > dialogue group > > > honestly i was stunned. > > > i believe you have > been told absoluetly wrong > > history. > > > > > >  do you know how much these kashmiri hindus > have > > suffered at the hands of > > > muslims in kashmir? > > > > > > hindusthan is the only country which gave shelter > to > > people of your > > > religion whole heartedly that was because > hindusthan > > is a hindu dominated > > > country. > > > i really wonder how can you try to befriend > muslims, > > basically how can you > > > trust them? have you people not suffered at the > hands > > of muslims? > > > have you not heard about 'muslim > brotherhood'? > > > rightnow, you may think that muslims in kashmir > were > > friendly with you > > > hence they are nice. but are you sure that when > you > > fight with other muslim > > > countries, these same kashmiri friends of yours > will > > support you against the > > > latter? > > > > > > > i sincerely feel, hindus, and not muslims  > can be > > your natural allies. > > > > > > vedavati > > > india > > > > > > > > > Own a website.Get an unlimited package.Pay next > to > > nothing.* Click here!. > > > > > > > > > > > > Explore and discover exciting holidays and > getaways > > with Yahoo! India > > > Travel Click here! > > > > > > > > > > > > Explore and discover exciting holidays and > getaways > > with Yahoo! India > > > Travel Click here! > > > > > > > > >      Explore and discover exciting > holidays and > > getaways with Yahoo! India > > > Travel http://in.travel.yahoo.com/ > > > _________________________________________ > > > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and > the > > city. > > > Critiques & Collaborations > > > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net > > with > > > subscribe in the subject header. > > > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > > > List archive: > > > > > > > > > > -- > > http://venukm.blogspot.com/ > > _________________________________________ > > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the > > city. > > Critiques & Collaborations > > To > subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net > > with subscribe in the subject header. > > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > > > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> > > > > > >       Cricket on your mind? Visit the > > ultimate cricket website. Enter http://beta.cricket.yahoo.com > > _________________________________________ > > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the > > city. > > Critiques & Collaborations > > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net > > with subscribe in the subject header. > > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > > > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> > > > > > > > > Cricket on your mind? Visit the > ultimate cricket website. > Enter now! From javedmasoo at gmail.com Wed Jun 10 11:54:23 2009 From: javedmasoo at gmail.com (M Javed) Date: Wed, 10 Jun 2009 11:54:23 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Fw: Re: we are all stunned Message-ID: Dear Vedavati and Malik Firstly, it is wrong to say that Muslim leaders never condemn wrongs done to the people of other faiths. One can quote thousands of instances on Muslims condemning acts of terrorism and violence where people of other (non-Muslim) communities have been affected. (If you are interested, I can send the links and references). But a more important point is: why should we expect only Muslim leaders to come up with a condemnation? What does that prove? A condemnation of an event by someone may express one's honest angst about something, but it can also be a superficial lip-service to create a feel-good factor. Why should someone do a superficial media-act to show one's patriotism? If Muslims keep condemning the plight of Kashmiri pandits, will they get a certificate of bonafide Indian nationals? I really wonder what does a mere criticism or condemnation in public about an event mean anything? Does it heal the wounds of the affected people? Does it stop the perpetrators from their acts of violence? Javed On Wed, Jun 10, 2009 at 11:18 AM, A.K. Malik wrote: > > Hi, >      I agree and respect your views. I have rarely seen any muslim leader or others criticizing any wrong being done by people of their own faith except Hindus of course most of whom cry more for any atrocity on persons of specific religion and remain silent when it is on persons of their own religion. > There are thousands of so called seculars who have condemned post Godhra violence, very few for Godhra incident and almost none for atrocities on Kashmiri Hindus. > You are not "secular" unless you kick people of your own faith whether wrong or right is immaterial. > Regards, > > (A.K.MALIK) > > > --- On Wed, 6/10/09, Vedavati Jogi wrote: > >> From: Vedavati Jogi >> Subject: Re: [Reader-list] Fw: Re: i was stunned >> To: "A.K. Malik" >> Cc: reader-list at sarai.net >> Date: Wednesday, June 10, 2009, 10:21 AM >> thank you mr. malik for this >> mail. i know you are not a pseudo-secular, 'liberal' >> or 'thinker' etc. >> still you did not like the  idea of >> throwing muslims out of this country. >> >> this is the difference between hindus & >> muslims!  trust me i wanted to prove this to all. >> >> majority of muslims in pakistan or bangladesh, kashmir >>  even india, don't show this magnonimity towards >> hindus. i have not seen any muslim leader caring for hindu >> migrants from kashmir. >> >> yet sickulars in india keep talking about >> 'sufferings of muslims in india' >> this continuous hindubashing is responsible for >> creating gulf between citizens of different faiths in india >> . >> >> i am not a religious fanatic,  i would never want >> to throw any common citizen (irrespective of his or her >> faith) to be thrown out of this country. i possess great >> respect for dr. kalam, i just loved rafi, madhubala, i love >> to listen to jakir hussain's tabla and like to watch >> irfan pathan's game. list is very big! >> >> vedavati >> >> >> >> >> >> >> --- On Tue, 9/6/09, A.K. Malik >> wrote: >> >> >> From: A.K. Malik >> Subject: Re: [Reader-list] Fw: Re: i was stunned >> To: "Vedavati Jogi" >> >> Cc: "Sarai List" >> Date: Tuesday, 9 June, 2009, 1:36 PM >> >> >> >> Dear Vedvatiji, >> >>    I am normally a critcizer of Hindu bashing >> but I find this to be strange. What has Pakistan to do with >> Indian Muslims, they are Indian citizens as we are and have >> the same rights as we have? And who has given this power to >> Balasaheb Thakre to send Indian Citizens to Pakistan? It is >> a different matter if some are willing to go on their own >> accord and Pakistan is ready to accept them.If the same is >> being done to Indians in Australia and North America why are >> we then troubled. >> In this Globalised world, such a thinking will definitely >> bring another partition. >> I find the Press to be also responsible for bringing such a >> division amongst citizens. Newspaper headings: >> "A Woman and DALIT becomes speaker for the first >> time" >> "Vahanvati is first MUSLIM Attorney >> General"    Today's Times of India Front >> Page >> The emphasis is not the MERIT >>  which has brought them to these levels, it is on Dalit and >> Muslim as if they have become eligible only now or they have >> been appointed as if the requirement was for a Dalit and a >> Muslim and no merit was required.That is one reason I am >> against reservations of any kind. The help/assistance >> needs  only to be given for grooming. >> >> (A.K.MALIK) >> >> >> --- On Mon, 6/8/09, Vedavati Jogi >> wrote: >> >> > From: Vedavati Jogi >> > Subject: Re: [Reader-list] Fw: Re: i was stunned >> > To: "Venugopalan K M" >> > Cc: reader-list at sarai.net >> > Date: Monday, June 8, 2009, 7:07 PM >> > i don't speak for hindus, >> > i care for my nation! >> > this  socalled  philosophy of secularism and >> liberalism >> > is dividing the nation and disarming hindus >> > and i can't see my country being partitioned again >> . >> > >> > once balasaheb thakare had said, if pakistan wants >> kashmir >> > (because kashmir is a muslim majority state) then they >> will >> > have to accept 20 crore muslim refugees from india >> too. >> > >> > i support this statement. >> > >> > vedavati >> > --- On Sun, 7/6/09, Venugopalan K M >> > wrote: >> > >> > >> > From: Venugopalan K M >> > Subject: Re: [Reader-list] Fw: Re: i was stunned >> > To: "sarai-list" >> > Date: Sunday, 7 June, 2009, 3:38 PM >> > >> > >> > Ignorance may be bliss; arrogance might be bliss as >> well, >> > at least until >> > someone gets held up for rash assumptions on others.. >> > However, certain manifestations of ignorance plus >> arrogance >> > are better to be >> > left as they are; I believe that will be healthy for >> people >> > on both sides of >> > the divide.. >> > Feel no temptation to >>  dispute the contents here; >> > but who are you to speak for the entire Hindus in >> India,any >> > way? >> > >> > Peace and love, >> > Venu. >> > >> > On Sun, Jun 7, 2009 at 11:12 AM, Vedavati Jogi wrote: >> > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > > good -that israel govt did not listen to you and >> > returned socalled occupied >> > > territories to palestinians. i never knew that >> there >> > are pseudo seculars in >> > > israel too (like india) >> > > >> > > you feel govt. of india should give autonomy to >> > kashmir, are you aware that >> > > kashmiri hindus have been thrown out of kashmir? >> > > do you find muslims so >>  trustworthy that in autonomous, >> > muslims dominated >> > > state hindus can remain safe? >> > > >> > > whole pakistan is a muslim occupied india, are >> you >> > aware of that? >> > > >> > >  vedavati >> > > >> > > --- On Sun, 7/6/09, Alex Stein >> > wrote: >> > > >> > > >> > > From: Alex Stein >> > > Subject: Re: i was stunned >> > > To: "Vedavati Jogi" >> > > Date: Sunday, 7 June, 2009, 2:58 AM >> > >>  > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > > 1. I think we should return the Occupied >> Territories >> > (West Bank, Gaza, East >> > > Jerusalem) to the Palestinian people. >> > > >> > > 2. I never said I speak for Kashmir. >> > > >> > > 3. I think the valley should be autonomous >> (nobody >> > should be removed from >> > > their homes). >> > > >> > > 4. That is for you and Pakistan to decide over >> the >> > course - hopefully one >> > > day - of peace negotiations. >> > > >> > > A >> > > >> > > >> > > falsedichotomies.com >> > > >> > > "The most radical and the only secure form >> of >> > possession is destruction, >> > > for only what we have destroyed is safely and >> forever >> > ours." Hannah Arendt >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > > --- On Sat, 6/6/09, Vedavati Jogi >> > wrote: >> > > >> > > >> > > From: Vedavati Jogi >> > > Subject: Re: i was stunned >> > > To: "Alex Stein" >> > > Date: Saturday, 6 June, 2009, 7:38 PM >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > > hello alex, >> > > 1) will you give part of your country to any >> other >> > nation? >> > > 2) who has given you right to speak for kashmir? >> > > 3) if kashmir is given to muslims what about >>  those >> > hindus who have been >> > > living there since last thousand years? >> > > 4) will you dare to tell pakistan to give our >> land >> > back? >> > > vedavati >> > > >> > > --- On Sun, 7/6/09, Alex Stein >> > wrote: >> > > >> > > >> > > From: Alex Stein >> > > Subject: Re: i was stunned >> > > To: "Vedavati Jogi" >> > > Date: Sunday, 7 June, 2009, 2:27 AM >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > >>  > >> > > >> > > Hi Vedavti, >> > > Thanks for your email. >> > > We are not standing in opposition to Hindus. I >> deeply >> > love India, its >> > > culture and its people. I believe, though, that >> the >> > Kashmir people have a >> > > right to self-determination, just like anyone >> else, >> > and I believe that it is >> > > in India's interest to grant it to them, at >> least when >> > the time is right. >> > > Best wishes, >> > > Alex Stein >> > > >> > > PS - you may be interested in my blog of my >> travels in >> > India last summer - >> > > wanderingsatlan.blogspot.com >> > > >> > > >> > > falsedichotomies.com >> > > >> > > "The most radical and the only secure form >> of >> > possession is destruction, >> > > for only what we have destroyed is safely and >> forever >> > ours." Hannah Arendt >> > > >> > > >> > >>  > >> > > --- On Fri, 5/6/09, Vedavati Jogi >> > wrote: >> > > >> > > >> > > From: Vedavati Jogi >> > > Subject: i was stunned >> > > To: alex.stein at talk21.com >> > > Date: Friday, 5 June, 2009, 7:10 AM >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > > hello sir, >> > > >> > > i went thru. your article about >> 'jeuish-kashmiri >> > dialogue group >> > > honestly i was stunned. >> > > i believe you have >>  been told absoluetly wrong >> > history. >> > > >> > >  do you know how much these kashmiri hindus >> have >> > suffered at the hands of >> > > muslims in kashmir? >> > > >> > > hindusthan is the only country which gave shelter >> to >> > people of your >> > > religion whole heartedly that was because >> hindusthan >> > is a hindu dominated >> > > country. >> > > i really wonder how can you try to befriend >> muslims, >> > basically how can you >> > > trust them? have you people not suffered at the >> hands >> > of muslims? >> > > have you not heard about 'muslim >> brotherhood'? >> > > rightnow, you may think that muslims in kashmir >> were >> > friendly with you >> > > hence they are nice. but are you sure that when >> you >> > fight with other muslim >> > > countries, these same kashmiri friends of yours >> will >> > support you against the >> > > latter? >> > >>  > >> > > i sincerely feel, hindus, and not muslims >> can be >> > your natural allies. >> > > >> > > vedavati >> > > india >> > > >> > > >> > > Own a website.Get an unlimited package.Pay next >> to >> > nothing.* Click here!. >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > > Explore and discover exciting holidays and >> getaways >> > with Yahoo! India >> > > Travel Click here! >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > > Explore and discover exciting holidays and >> getaways >> > with Yahoo! India >> > > Travel Click here! >> > > >> > > >> > >      Explore and discover exciting >> holidays and >> > getaways with Yahoo! India >> > > Travel http://in.travel.yahoo.com/ >> > > _________________________________________ >> > > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and >>  the >> > city. >> > > Critiques & Collaborations >> > > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net >> > with >> > > subscribe in the subject header. >> > > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list >> > > List archive: >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > -- >> > http://venukm.blogspot.com/ >> > _________________________________________ >> > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the >> > city. >> > Critiques & Collaborations >> > To >>  subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net >> > with subscribe in the subject header. >> > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list >> >> > List archive: >> > >> > >> >       Cricket on your mind? Visit the >> > ultimate cricket website. Enter http://beta.cricket.yahoo.com >> > _________________________________________ >> > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the >> > city. >> > Critiques & Collaborations >> > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net >> > with subscribe in the subject header. >> > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list >> >> > List archive: >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >>        Cricket on your mind? Visit the >> ultimate cricket website. >> Enter now! > > > > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with subscribe in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: From anivar.aravind at gmail.com Wed Jun 10 11:54:31 2009 From: anivar.aravind at gmail.com (Anivar Aravind) Date: Wed, 10 Jun 2009 11:54:31 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] [advt] TheFishPond.in Updates In-Reply-To: <4073086a0906092257j20ba0c82wa2c93d24c99d7feb@mail.gmail.com> References: <4073086a0906092257j20ba0c82wa2c93d24c99d7feb@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <35f96d470906092324h3982699fw120ff12f4f2620ea@mail.gmail.com> ---------- Forwarded message ---------- From: Anivar Aravind Date: Wed, Jun 10, 2009 at 11:27 AM Dear Friends The Fish Pond , a group Blog with Multiple Fishe(r)s now completes one week of its launch. Within last one week we achieved 5 posts 15 Comments and 3260+ views . The Current Posts are Sex in the Neo-liberal City: On Savita Bhabhi by Itty Abraham http://thefishpond.in/2009/06/on-savita-bhabhi/ In The Interstices of Holocaust by A & S http://thefishpond.in/2009/06/in-the-interstices-of-holocaust/ Friendships: Ins, Outs and In-betweens by P K Ratheeshkumar http://thefishpond.in/2009/06/friendships-ins-outs-and-in-betweens/ Laughing unabated by Mythri Prasad http://thefishpond.in/2009/06/laughing-unabated/ Corporate Social Responsibility as a marketing ploy: Tata and rights of people by Sumesh Mangalassery http://thefishpond.in/2009/06/tata-csr-and-rights-of-people/ ------------------------------------------------------------- Follow us on Twitter: http://twitter.com/fish_pond Follow Feed:  http://feeds.thefishpond.in/thefishpond Follow Comments : http://feeds.thefishpond.in/fishcomments To Join Send a mail to v at thefishpond.in with your creative work a & s From c.anupam at gmail.com Wed Jun 10 13:39:27 2009 From: c.anupam at gmail.com (anupam chakravartty) Date: Wed, 10 Jun 2009 13:39:27 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Hindu article In-Reply-To: References: <006e01c9e751$89062ba0$0201a8c0@limo> <1f9180970906070400r2e988177uc885c0c642a43bef@mail.gmail.com> <00f001c9e80d$f11c4370$0201a8c0@limo> <341380d00906080125s159c119du6580b5df5c72ad43@mail.gmail.com> <000e01c9e82d$367f1400$0201a8c0@limo> <341380d00906080510t749be918v73a29b7fd2151481@mail.gmail.com> <009101c9e8cc$bc8e61f0$0201a8c0@limo> Message-ID: <341380d00906100109x5e2809crfecdbb937343cb60@mail.gmail.com> Dear Bipin, The more you argue your ignorance becomes more prominent. It shows in your arguments: your idea of dealing with the communalisation of gujarat is the punishment of the government officials who have been biased in bringing development. what sort of punishment? suspension that can act as deterrent or public lynching. will it ever bring the justice to the muslims who have selectively implicated after voter lists were given to rioters across gujarat with a free hand to chop them? if i were to jot down the number of people prosecuted in this regard (in courts of gujarat to be communal), that would go on and on. to be specific, the officials who act in a biased manner in godhra municipality are elected. are you trying to say that for an *elected *office of a municipality, you are going to punish them for being communal? if that is the case, then elected leaders such as advani, kodnani, modi should be punished first for their communal outlook not just in governance but also creating communally sensitive atmosphere post babri demolition. let me tell you, muslim leaders who participated in indian democracy were never responsible for communal situation except for madani in kerela. secondly, i *never agreed that* *massive riots took place in chiman and madhavsinh's time. (please do not ascribe what i havent said) *like what you have cited that hindus were killed under their governance. let me tell in past week, 40 persons were missing from vadodara area. if i were to go by your line of argument, then it is modi who is responsible for these missing persons. but no..that's not the point which i was trying to make. during chimanbhai and madhavsinh's time, even if riots happened, state authorities issued directions to the police to maintain the calm in the area. there are written notices of these leaders that they appealed the people of gujarat or whereever the riots occured to maintain communal harmony unlike mr modi, who even now walks out of a TV show when faced with the question about riots? what is this belligerence he tries to portray for his wellwishers and critics if he was not involved in the riots? a leader of his stature should have been able to answer how the hell 1200 people were massacred selective, 1169 still missing? where is his answer? gujaratis are peace loving people. but going to halol, talking to policemen (yes there are honest ones too) and factory officials one can imagine, how tribal communities such as rathwas, barias, solankis, chauhans were made the sentinels to lead the mobs in Panchmahal districts, while biased brahminical gentry sat planned the pogrom. halol's road were destroyed, 300 cars belonging to the General Motors were trashed with hockeys and sticks in a matter of two days. i am not counting the human lives lost because then you would go on that sectarian tangent. but yes for you, and only you let me cite that 40 year old naseeb shaikh in delol village near halol lost 22 relatives and police hasnt even lodged section 302 complaint. they are still considered missing. if the specific hindu article is saying that muslims are treated in gujarat as second class citizens, it may not be true for the whole community but for many it is a reality and they have to live with it. a mere article cannot change it for them. certainly they would like to forget 2002 because they are also human beings. it is best for any person to forget his/her past so that future can be secured. brooding over the past is not something that "normal" people do, who need to work, fend for themselves and their families. However, certain communities especially vohras and sulaimanis did not get affected as Ghanchee muslims after 2002. the reason being that especially among the rioters, they consider ghanchees to be the later converts from hinduism and tribal religions after the brief period of mughal rule. infact, the creation of muslim areas started after 2002. for example, tandalja, which also has cricketer irfan pathan's house now, has a sizeable muslim population after the riots when hundreds of families were either force to leave or out of sheer desperation from the so called hindu areas. similar like to the case of kashmiri pandits. i also fail to understand this statement of yours: "As you mentioned my religion, which in your eye is Hindu, so the yours also. Are you not Hindu? It would have been better you have mentioned our religion. THIS IS ALSO NON-SECULAR STAND!!! But problem is that you people don't understand the real secularism. As far as religion is concerned I believe only in Human RELIGION or DHARMA. Whenever some form to be filled up and asked about cast/religion, I am mentioning Human religion only. " and then you go on to say: "In India, I think, who speak for or create show to speak for minority is secular and who speak for majority is communal." you also say that religion or dharma is complicated question. you know why it becomes complicated? because there is a sustained effort among many from all religions to assign reason as a faculty for understanding religion. but religion that is the belief in something which is above or beyond you and working towards a way of life governed by certain principles that doesnt need reason as it by product. it needs what buddhists called prajna, which is devoid of reason but continual focus on your love for that being for your existence ( the meaning clearly doesnt reside in punishment). it is very simple and essentially not complicated as you have stated. i request you to think about why only discrimination against one particular community gets highlighted while other crimes against religions or belief or value system are overlooked. a certain bunch of hindus weilding swords with bricks bearing a mythical gods name to build a temple doesnt define hindu religion, or a another bunch wearing black clothes suppressing every other desire to understand god in its pure form is not what you call religion. they have been criticised -- be it in swat or kandhamal or gujarat or in afghanistan or iraq or latin america or australia (when it comes to destroying the rights of the aborgines, destroying a whole mountain called burrup for petroleum exploration). it is nothing but insecurity, greed for power and money, which drives them to act against a helpless and the innocent. therefore it is under this context of secularism, we have to understand why discriminatory policies of the state are dividing the people. i feel your understanding of dharma or religion is very much in sync with the liberal discourse, which wants to create a homogenised society. the complicacies arise when the liberal discourse looks down upon the minority (often also called marginal) discourses. these discourses can exist in any religion especially if we cite the case of bauls or for kalandars, who for the years have been religious and secular also but never have they felt like merging with the modernist idea of secularism and homogenisation. thanks anupam On 6/9/09, Rakesh Iyer wrote: > Dear Bipin jee > > Since you have mentioned religion and dharma, let me also state this: > > Religion and dharma are somewhat different. > > Religion is a fundamental set of beliefs and practices generally agreed > upon by a group of people. These set of beliefs concern the cause, nature, > and purpose of the universe, and involve devotional and ritual observances. > They also often contain a moral code governing the conduct of human affairs. > > > Since people have to agree on a set of practices here, it does involve > politics, at a fundamental level, irrespective of whether we accept it or > not. > > Dharma on the other hand, is a sense of duty. Probably the BJP may not like > it, but dharma can't be the exact word for Religion in Hindi. Moreover, > unlike religion, dharma can be personal. I hope you would have seen the film > Swades. In that film, Mohan Bhargava (Shahrukh Khan's character) believes > it's his duty (or dharma) to actually do something for the country, to help > the people in the village Charanpur. > > Even in the Mahabharata, Krishna reminds Arjun of his duty as a kshatriya > before the war starts. Similarly, at different stages, the word dharma comes > up to remind people of their duties in the same epic. > > Hence, religion may involve a bit of dharma. But dharma involving religion, > I don't think so. Dharma at best will involve faith. > > True religion which you have defined is only faith, not religion in any > sense. True faith only involves dharma and belief; true religion involves > much more than that. > > Regards > > Rakesh > From c.anupam at gmail.com Wed Jun 10 13:41:33 2009 From: c.anupam at gmail.com (anupam chakravartty) Date: Wed, 10 Jun 2009 13:41:33 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] News Items posted on the net on Multipurpose National Identity Cards-124 In-Reply-To: <65be9bf40906081146n9d416c1pbcf74c5be06b0611@mail.gmail.com> References: <65be9bf40906081146n9d416c1pbcf74c5be06b0611@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <341380d00906100111k2737587axaeaa393b67c15325@mail.gmail.com> thanks for posting this Taha. cheer anupam On 6/9/09, Taha Mehmood <2tahamehmood at googlemail.com> wrote: > > > http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/Surat/Coastal-villagers-of-Gujarat-to-get-unique-identity-card-next-year/articleshow/4628463.cms > > > SURAT: Central government's massive exercise of providing unique > multi-purpose national identity cards to coastal villagers in the wake > of 26/11 terror attack in Mumbai has been initiated in Gujarat. > > The Central government has asked collectors of seven districts to > provide the details of coastal villages falling under their > jurisdiction by February 1, 2010. > > At the one-day all India conference on National Population > Registration (NPR) held at New Delhi on June 3, the collectors of > Bharuch, Surat, Valsad, Navsari, Kutch, Jamnagar and Junagadh have > been asked to complete the exercise of collecting the database of the > coastal villagers in four months starting from October 2009. > > The unique identity card is an integral part of the ongoing > Multi-Purpose National Identity Card (MNIC) scheme, and will be issued > to citizens living in coastal villages of Gujarat, Maharashtra, Goa, > Karnataka, Kerala, Tamil Nadu, Andhra Pradesh, Orissa and West Bengal > by 2010. The Union Territories, which will be covered under the first > phase, are Dadra and Nagar Haveli, Lakshadweep, Puducherry and Andaman > & Nicobar Islands. > > Official sources said the population of around 2.5 lakh people in 83 > coastal villages in Surat's Olpaad and Choriyasi taluka will be > covered under the Central government's unique identity card scheme by > 2010. The initial plan is to cover the coastal villages to avoid > terrorists taking the sea route once again. > > The identification number will be provided by National Authority for > Unique Identity (NAUID), an entity under Planning Commission. It will > work in coordination with the office of the Registrar General of India > (RGI), which has been working on the National Population Register. > Identity cards proposed to be issued will be micro-processor > chip-based cards, which will have information of each individual, > his/her finger biometric as well as a photograph. > > "The project is of a national importance and we are committed to > complete the task by February 1," said Dilip Raval, collector, Surat. > > According to Raval, the task will be completed in two phases > enumerator training programme and listing and numbering of the houses > in coastal villages. > > A unique National Identity Number' will be assigned to each individual > including those below 18 years of age. This number will become a link > number' with any other application of the state government. > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > subscribe in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> From c.anupam at gmail.com Wed Jun 10 13:48:39 2009 From: c.anupam at gmail.com (anupam chakravartty) Date: Wed, 10 Jun 2009 13:48:39 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] A living legend of Indian Theater died today, or... In-Reply-To: <47e122a70906080842i65157e8fpc3d8981ad84d5d96@mail.gmail.com> References: <47e122a70906080842i65157e8fpc3d8981ad84d5d96@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <341380d00906100118r5e58eaetd1721a18fc67bb0e@mail.gmail.com> i still remember watching charandas chor in the big screen, then discovering this whole new world of folk and contemporary plays by habib sahab. and then how with his art, he brought the tragedy of bhopal to the world. -anupam On 6/8/09, Inder Salim wrote: > > Look who died today. They say his name is Habib Tanvir. > > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Habib_Tanvir > > Ah, I have seen him: a charming personality, his smoking pipe, his > sound, and his gentle probing set of eyes . > > It is a great feeling that i have seen this man called Habib Tanvir, > attended his few lectures. > It is great feeling in me that i have seen his few productions > including Agra Bazar. > > He was certainly a legend during his life time, and it is not > surprising that lot of press is full of obituaries. > > But has he died today? He ceased when he ceased to direct his plays, > or in his mind the act was still going on ? > In Art the death is just another event, and In life, the theater is > just another mask. Is it ? > > How to celebrate Habib Tanvir, > or the concept of Theater, both folk and contemporary in the present? > > what is that that which separates Life from Theater? > and how much of theater is woven in the living of each one of us? > How much artificiality is embedded in theater, and how to measure the > distance between theater and reality, > and what about the distance between the audience and the player on the > stage ? > > i see his death an opportunity to read different different reflections > on the subject: Habir Tanvir his theater, > and that theater and that life which moves with times > hand in hand. > > with love > is > > > > > > > > -- > > http://indersalim.livejournal.com > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > subscribe in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> From akmalik45 at yahoo.com Wed Jun 10 13:53:37 2009 From: akmalik45 at yahoo.com (A.K. Malik) Date: Wed, 10 Jun 2009 01:23:37 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Reader-list] Fw: Re: we are all stunned Message-ID: <122790.97186.qm@web39103.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Hi Mr Javed, Why then everyone is interested to condemn Post-Godhra events day-in and day-out.Is it not one of the many cases? Show me a similar tone for other cases, the ratio would come down to 100:1 If I remember correctly one of the ministers in UP Govt had publicly offered 51Crores to anyone beheading someone (I don't remember the name). Give me the links when he was condemned by any prominent muslim. It is everyone's right to speak or not to speak on any issue.But generalisations are based on certain data which are either easily available or are on the Public perception. See Salman Khurshid's statement who only sees Muslims as downtrodden.If we belong to a majority religion so we must suffer. All sops should only be given to minorities, all sympathisers should be only for minorities so that they appeased and are a solid VOTE-BANK.Why not treat everyone equal, the Constitution Of India enjoins upon not to discriminate based on caste, creed or religion.LET US ALL BE TREATED AS INDIANS irrespective of belonging to any religion. Regards, (A.K.MALIK) --- On Wed, 6/10/09, M Javed wrote: > From: M Javed > Subject: Re: [Reader-list] Fw: Re: we are all stunned > To: "A.K. Malik" > Cc: "Vedavati Jogi" , "Sarai List" > Date: Wednesday, June 10, 2009, 11:54 AM > Dear Vedavati and Malik > Firstly, it is wrong to say that Muslim leaders never > condemn wrongs > done to the people of other faiths. One can quote thousands > of > instances on Muslims condemning acts of terrorism and > violence where > people of other (non-Muslim) communities have been > affected. (If you > are interested, I can send the links and references). But a > more > important point is: why should we expect only Muslim > leaders to come > up with a condemnation? What does that prove? A > condemnation of an > event by someone may express one's honest angst about > something, but > it can also be a superficial lip-service to create a > feel-good factor. > Why should someone do a superficial media-act to show > one's > patriotism? If Muslims keep condemning the plight of > Kashmiri pandits, > will they get a certificate of bonafide Indian nationals? > > I really wonder what does a mere criticism or condemnation > in public > about an event mean anything? Does it heal the wounds of > the affected > people? Does it stop the perpetrators from their acts of > violence? > > Javed > > On Wed, Jun 10, 2009 at 11:18 AM, A.K. Malik > wrote: > > > > Hi, > >      I agree and respect your views. I have rarely > seen any muslim leader or others criticizing any wrong being > done by people of their own faith except Hindus of course > most of whom cry more for any atrocity on persons of > specific religion and remain silent when it is on persons of > their own religion. > > There are thousands of so called seculars who have > condemned post Godhra violence, very few for Godhra incident > and almost none for atrocities on Kashmiri Hindus. > > You are not "secular" unless you kick people of your > own faith whether wrong or right is immaterial. > > Regards, > > > > (A.K.MALIK) > > > > > > --- On Wed, 6/10/09, Vedavati Jogi > wrote: > > > >> From: Vedavati Jogi > >> Subject: Re: [Reader-list] Fw: Re: i was stunned > >> To: "A.K. Malik" > >> Cc: reader-list at sarai.net > >> Date: Wednesday, June 10, 2009, 10:21 AM > >> thank you mr. malik for this > >> mail. i know you are not a pseudo-secular, > 'liberal' > >> or 'thinker' etc. > >> still you did not like the  idea of > >> throwing muslims out of this country. > >> > >> this is the difference between hindus & > >> muslims!  trust me i wanted to prove this to > all. > >> > >> majority of muslims in pakistan or bangladesh, > kashmir > >>  even india, don't show this magnonimity towards > >> hindus. i have not seen any muslim leader caring > for hindu > >> migrants from kashmir. > >> > >> yet sickulars in india keep talking about > >> 'sufferings of muslims in india' > >> this continuous hindubashing is responsible for > >> creating gulf between citizens of different faiths > in india > >> . > >> > >> i am not a religious fanatic,  i would never > want > >> to throw any common citizen (irrespective of his > or her > >> faith) to be thrown out of this country. i possess > great > >> respect for dr. kalam, i just loved rafi, > madhubala, i love > >> to listen to jakir hussain's tabla and like to > watch > >> irfan pathan's game. list is very big! > >> > >> vedavati > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> --- On Tue, 9/6/09, A.K. Malik > >> > wrote: > >> > >> > >> From: A.K. Malik > >> Subject: Re: [Reader-list] Fw: Re: i was stunned > >> To: "Vedavati Jogi" > >> > >> Cc: "Sarai List" > >> Date: Tuesday, 9 June, 2009, 1:36 PM > >> > >> > >> > >> Dear Vedvatiji, > >> > >>    I am normally a critcizer of Hindu bashing > >> but I find this to be strange. What has Pakistan > to do with > >> Indian Muslims, they are Indian citizens as we are > and have > >> the same rights as we have? And who has given this > power to > >> Balasaheb Thakre to send Indian Citizens to > Pakistan? It is > >> a different matter if some are willing to go on > their own > >> accord and Pakistan is ready to accept them.If the > same is > >> being done to Indians in Australia and North > America why are > >> we then troubled. > >> In this Globalised world, such a thinking will > definitely > >> bring another partition. > >> I find the Press to be also responsible for > bringing such a > >> division amongst citizens. Newspaper headings: > >> "A Woman and DALIT becomes speaker for the first > >> time" > >> "Vahanvati is first MUSLIM Attorney > >> General"    Today's Times of India Front > >> Page > >> The emphasis is not the MERIT > >>  which has brought them to these levels, it is on > Dalit and > >> Muslim as if they have become eligible only now or > they have > >> been appointed as if the requirement was for a > Dalit and a > >> Muslim and no merit was required.That is one > reason I am > >> against reservations of any kind. The > help/assistance > >> needs  only to be given for grooming. > >> > >> (A.K.MALIK) > >> > >> > >> --- On Mon, 6/8/09, Vedavati Jogi > >> wrote: > >> > >> > From: Vedavati Jogi > >> > Subject: Re: [Reader-list] Fw: Re: i was > stunned > >> > To: "Venugopalan K M" > >> > Cc: reader-list at sarai.net > >> > Date: Monday, June 8, 2009, 7:07 PM > >> > i don't speak for hindus, > >> > i care for my nation! > >> > this  socalled  philosophy of secularism > and > >> liberalism > >> > is dividing the nation and disarming hindus > >> > and i can't see my country being partitioned > again > >> . > >> > > >> > once balasaheb thakare had said, if pakistan > wants > >> kashmir > >> > (because kashmir is a muslim majority state) > then they > >> will > >> > have to accept 20 crore muslim refugees from > india > >> too. > >> > > >> > i support this statement. > >> > > >> > vedavati > >> > --- On Sun, 7/6/09, Venugopalan K M > >> > wrote: > >> > > >> > > >> > From: Venugopalan K M > >> > Subject: Re: [Reader-list] Fw: Re: i was > stunned > >> > To: "sarai-list" > >> > Date: Sunday, 7 June, 2009, 3:38 PM > >> > > >> > > >> > Ignorance may be bliss; arrogance might be > bliss as > >> well, > >> > at least until > >> > someone gets held up for rash assumptions on > others.. > >> > However, certain manifestations of ignorance > plus > >> arrogance > >> > are better to be > >> > left as they are; I believe that will be > healthy for > >> people > >> > on both sides of > >> > the divide.. > >> > Feel no temptation to > >>  dispute the contents here; > >> > but who are you to speak for the entire > Hindus in > >> India,any > >> > way? > >> > > >> > Peace and love, > >> > Venu. > >> > > >> > On Sun, Jun 7, 2009 at 11:12 AM, Vedavati > Jogi wrote: > >> > > >> > > > >> > > > >> > > > >> > > > >> > > > >> > > > >> > > > >> > > > >> > > > >> > > > >> > > good -that israel govt did not listen to > you and > >> > returned socalled occupied > >> > > territories to palestinians. i never > knew that > >> there > >> > are pseudo seculars in > >> > > israel too (like india) > >> > > > >> > > you feel govt. of india should give > autonomy to > >> > kashmir, are you aware that > >> > > kashmiri hindus have been thrown out of > kashmir? > >> > > do you find muslims so > >>  trustworthy that in autonomous, > >> > muslims dominated > >> > > state hindus can remain safe? > >> > > > >> > > whole pakistan is a muslim occupied > india, are > >> you > >> > aware of that? > >> > > > >> > >  vedavati > >> > > > >> > > --- On Sun, 7/6/09, Alex Stein > >> > wrote: > >> > > > >> > > > >> > > From: Alex Stein > >> > > Subject: Re: i was stunned > >> > > To: "Vedavati Jogi" > >> > > Date: Sunday, 7 June, 2009, 2:58 AM > >> > > >>  > > >> > > > >> > > > >> > > > >> > > > >> > > > >> > > > >> > > 1. I think we should return the > Occupied > >> Territories > >> > (West Bank, Gaza, East > >> > > Jerusalem) to the Palestinian people. > >> > > > >> > > 2. I never said I speak for Kashmir. > >> > > > >> > > 3. I think the valley should be > autonomous > >> (nobody > >> > should be removed from > >> > > their homes). > >> > > > >> > > 4. That is for you and Pakistan to > decide over > >> the > >> > course - hopefully one > >> > > day - of peace negotiations. > >> > > > >> > > A > >> > > > >> > > > >> > > falsedichotomies.com > >> > > > >> > > "The most radical and the only secure > form > >> of > >> > possession is destruction, > >> > > for only what we have destroyed is > safely and > >> forever > >> > ours." Hannah Arendt > >> > > > >> > > > >> > > > >> > > --- On Sat, 6/6/09, Vedavati Jogi > >> > wrote: > >> > > > >> > > > >> > > From: Vedavati Jogi > >> > > Subject: Re: i was stunned > >> > > To: "Alex Stein" > >> > > Date: Saturday, 6 June, 2009, 7:38 PM > >> > > > >> > > > >> > > > >> > > > >> > > > >> > > > >> > > > >> > > hello alex, > >> > > 1) will you give part of your country to > any > >> other > >> > nation? > >> > > 2) who has given you right to speak for > kashmir? > >> > > 3) if kashmir is given to muslims what > about > >>  those > >> > hindus who have been > >> > > living there since last thousand years? > >> > > 4) will you dare to tell pakistan to > give our > >> land > >> > back? > >> > > vedavati > >> > > > >> > > --- On Sun, 7/6/09, Alex Stein > >> > wrote: > >> > > > >> > > > >> > > From: Alex Stein > >> > > Subject: Re: i was stunned > >> > > To: "Vedavati Jogi" > >> > > Date: Sunday, 7 June, 2009, 2:27 AM > >> > > > >> > > > >> > > > >> > > > >> > > > >> > > >>  > > >> > > > >> > > Hi Vedavti, > >> > > Thanks for your email. > >> > > We are not standing in opposition to > Hindus. I > >> deeply > >> > love India, its > >> > > culture and its people. I believe, > though, that > >> the > >> > Kashmir people have a > >> > > right to self-determination, just like > anyone > >> else, > >> > and I believe that it is > >> > > in India's interest to grant it to them, > at > >> least when > >> > the time is right. > >> > > Best wishes, > >> > > Alex Stein > >> > > > >> > > PS - you may be interested in my blog of > my > >> travels in > >> > India last summer - > >> > > wanderingsatlan.blogspot.com > >> > > > >> > > > >> > > falsedichotomies.com > >> > > > >> > > "The most radical and the only secure > form > >> of > >> > possession is destruction, > >> > > for only what we have destroyed is > safely and > >> forever > >> > ours." Hannah Arendt > >> > > > >> > > > >> > > >>  > > >> > > --- On Fri, 5/6/09, Vedavati Jogi > >> > wrote: > >> > > > >> > > > >> > > From: Vedavati Jogi > >> > > Subject: i was stunned > >> > > To: alex.stein at talk21.com > >> > > Date: Friday, 5 June, 2009, 7:10 AM > >> > > > >> > > > >> > > > >> > > > >> > > > >> > > > >> > > > >> > > hello sir, > >> > > > >> > > i went thru. your article about > >> 'jeuish-kashmiri > >> > dialogue group > >> > > honestly i was stunned. > >> > > i believe you have > >>  been told absoluetly wrong > >> > history. > >> > > > >> > >  do you know how much these kashmiri > hindus > >> have > >> > suffered at the hands of > >> > > muslims in kashmir? > >> > > > >> > > hindusthan is the only country which > gave shelter > >> to > >> > people of your > >> > > religion whole heartedly that was > because > >> hindusthan > >> > is a hindu dominated > >> > > country. > >> > > i really wonder how can you try to > befriend > >> muslims, > >> > basically how can you > >> > > trust them? have you people not suffered > at the > >> hands > >> > of muslims? > >> > > have you not heard about 'muslim > >> brotherhood'? > >> > > rightnow, you may think that muslims in > kashmir > >> were > >> > friendly with you > >> > > hence they are nice. but are you sure > that when > >> you > >> > fight with other muslim > >> > > countries, these same kashmiri friends > of yours > >> will > >> > support you against the > >> > > latter? > >> > > >>  > > >> > > i sincerely feel, hindus, and not > muslims > >> can be > >> > your natural allies. > >> > > > >> > > vedavati > >> > > india > >> > > > >> > > > >> > > Own a website.Get an unlimited > package.Pay next > >> to > >> > nothing.* Click here!. > >> > > > >> > > > >> > > > >> > > Explore and discover exciting holidays > and > >> getaways > >> > with Yahoo! India > >> > > Travel Click here! > >> > > > >> > > > >> > > > >> > > Explore and discover exciting holidays > and > >> getaways > >> > with Yahoo! India > >> > > Travel Click here! > >> > > > >> > > > >> > >      Explore and discover exciting > >> holidays and > >> > getaways with Yahoo! India > >> > > Travel http://in.travel.yahoo.com/ > >> > > > _________________________________________ > >> > > reader-list: an open discussion list on > media and > >>  the > >> > city. > >> > > Critiques & Collaborations > >> > > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net > >> > with > >> > > subscribe in the subject header. > >> > > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > >> > > List archive: > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > -- > >> > http://venukm.blogspot.com/ > >> > _________________________________________ > >> > reader-list: an open discussion list on media > and the > >> > city. > >> > Critiques & Collaborations > >> > To > >>  subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net > >> > with subscribe in the subject header. > >> > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > >> > >> > List archive: > >> > > >> > > >> >       Cricket on your mind? Visit the > >> > ultimate cricket website. Enter http://beta.cricket.yahoo.com > >> > _________________________________________ > >> > reader-list: an open discussion list on media > and the > >> > city. > >> > Critiques & Collaborations > >> > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net > >> > with subscribe in the subject header. > >> > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > >> > >> > List archive: > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >>        Cricket on your mind? Visit the > >> ultimate cricket website. > >> Enter now! > > > > > > > > _________________________________________ > > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the > city. > > Critiques & Collaborations > > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net > with subscribe in the subject header. > > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > > List archive: > From peter.ksmtf at gmail.com Wed Jun 10 13:56:56 2009 From: peter.ksmtf at gmail.com (T Peter) Date: Wed, 10 Jun 2009 13:56:56 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Fish workers for agitation Message-ID: <3457ce860906100126h7708b534re41c3db86a84fca0@mail.gmail.com> *Fish workers for agitation * *Date:09/06/2009* *URL: http://www.thehindu.com/2009/06/09/stories/2009060950960200.htm* Special Correspondent Thiruvananthapuram: Fish workers owing allegiance to the Kerala Swathantra Matsya Thozhilali Federation (KSMTF) staged a dharna in front of the Secretariat on Monday urging the government to write off their loans, ban monsoon trawling on the basis of the Supreme Court verdict and exert pressure on the Centre to scrap the move to replace the Coastal Regulation Zone (CRZ) norms with a Coastal Zone Management (CZM) policy. Inaugurating the dharna, federation president T. Peter called for steps to ensure the safety of fishermen at sea during the monsoon season. He stressed the need to step up patrolling by the Coast Guard and marine enforcement, provide fishworkers with lifejackets and supply one wireless set for each fishing vessel. The federation also demanded measures to check the outbreak of epidemics in the coastal areas during the monsoon. It urged the Health Department to ensure that primary health centres in the coastal areas were operational round-the- clock. Addressing the dharna, Mr. Peter said the executive committee meeting of the National Fishworkers Forum scheduled to be held at Kolkata on June 19 and 20 would finalise a nation-wide agitation to press the demands. From rakesh.rnbdj at gmail.com Wed Jun 10 14:50:29 2009 From: rakesh.rnbdj at gmail.com (Rakesh Iyer) Date: Wed, 10 Jun 2009 14:50:29 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Hindu article In-Reply-To: <341380d00906100109x5e2809crfecdbb937343cb60@mail.gmail.com> References: <006e01c9e751$89062ba0$0201a8c0@limo> <1f9180970906070400r2e988177uc885c0c642a43bef@mail.gmail.com> <00f001c9e80d$f11c4370$0201a8c0@limo> <341380d00906080125s159c119du6580b5df5c72ad43@mail.gmail.com> <000e01c9e82d$367f1400$0201a8c0@limo> <341380d00906080510t749be918v73a29b7fd2151481@mail.gmail.com> <009101c9e8cc$bc8e61f0$0201a8c0@limo> <341380d00906100109x5e2809crfecdbb937343cb60@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: Dear Anupam jee Reading your discourse or ideas on religion and dharma, as well as secularism reminded me of Nandy's essays. It's he from where I first got to think of the idea that secularism could actually be the reason for violence. However, I have a problem with this thesis. The idea is that secularism as you said, tries to homogenize societies, which affects those at the margins and hence, they somewhere down the line can take part in violence. My issues are: 1) Secularism alone can't lead to this. The major problem is development issue, going beyond just secularism (which at best can only be a part of it). Most of the people are living at the margins not because societies are being asked to be secular (and there can be different definitions of the word 'secular' here), but because people have to suffer a lot because of the development policy we are following from the British times. This top down approach ensures that people have to live at the margins, and in this situation, they have no choice but to fight for themselves. 2) Secularism has never seeped in the society in my perception (here I am considering two definitions: the Western definition or the tolerance of all religions definition); it is just enshrined in the Constitution. Even today if we ask people if riots should take place or not, they would obviously say no because peace helps everybody to prosper economically and at least ensures security of lives, which is precious for all. Secularism, as I see it, is an elitist idea or elitist framework, and common people are least bothered by it. Of course, if I go by Amartya Sen's perception, India was and is secular. If people actually thought that their marginalization due to secularism is the issue, they would have protested against this. Till now, the only fight against marginalization has been against the current development paradigms and the choices made as per this paradigm, like displacement due to dams, land acquisition for factories and so on, or even unavailability of health and education facilities for tribals and the downtrodden (in case of Naxalism). Therefore, I believe the current development paradigm of benefiting the rich at the cost of the poor is the major issue, and this can't be solved by highway programmes or by economic reforms to benefit the corporates. What we need is an understanding that we have to do the reverse of the 'top-down' approach, and that is the 'bottom-top' approach, where we improve things at the bottom, and automatically things will indeed improve at the top. That is why removing Modi or even giving him death sentence for his deeds is not going to help, because there is a certain section in Gujarat which strongly supports his activities, and will make a martyr of him even if he goes to gallows. What is needed is the change in the mindset of these people, and automatically Modi will have to change. More importantly violence must be abhorred not because I believe in secularism or someone else believes in communalism; it should be abhorred because it is against the basic right to life of human beings. This is something even accepted by the Constitution of India, and should anyways be accepted by all human beings. Hope you would also share your views on this. Regards Rakesh From c.anupam at gmail.com Wed Jun 10 15:15:50 2009 From: c.anupam at gmail.com (anupam chakravartty) Date: Wed, 10 Jun 2009 15:15:50 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Hindu article In-Reply-To: References: <006e01c9e751$89062ba0$0201a8c0@limo> <1f9180970906070400r2e988177uc885c0c642a43bef@mail.gmail.com> <00f001c9e80d$f11c4370$0201a8c0@limo> <341380d00906080125s159c119du6580b5df5c72ad43@mail.gmail.com> <000e01c9e82d$367f1400$0201a8c0@limo> <341380d00906080510t749be918v73a29b7fd2151481@mail.gmail.com> <009101c9e8cc$bc8e61f0$0201a8c0@limo> <341380d00906100109x5e2809crfecdbb937343cb60@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <341380d00906100245y79f6668ct914d041fa7dafb25@mail.gmail.com> Dear Rakesh, My problems are not rooted in the idea of secularism be it western or oriental. it is this modernist idea which only takes into consideration the dominant discourses of our time to chose the path of the development leaving aside the marginal outlook. whether secularisation is a by product of the modernist propaganda or not is not my concern. even non-secular position, for example: the saffron propaganda has modern elements attached to it. in case of gujarat, the very idea of providing voters lists to the rioters has shows that the state (here modi administration) used modern statistical data (in many ways, stats in the west seen as a tool that further the secular notions of the state) to subvert machinery for development for creating mayhem against a certain class of people. later during the election campaigns, modi kept on citing that he stands by 5.5 crore gujaratis (which i am sure never includes the muslims). i think you read it otherwise or you are confusing the secular notions of mr bipin with mine. thanks anupam On 6/10/09, Rakesh Iyer wrote: > > Dear Anupam jee > > Reading your discourse or ideas on religion and dharma, as well as > secularism reminded me of Nandy's essays. It's he from where I first got to > think of the idea that secularism could actually be the reason for violence. > > > However, I have a problem with this thesis. The idea is that secularism as > you said, tries to homogenize societies, which affects those at the margins > and hence, they somewhere down the line can take part in violence. My issues > are: > > 1) Secularism alone can't lead to this. The major problem is development > issue, going beyond just secularism (which at best can only be a part of > it). Most of the people are living at the margins not because societies are > being asked to be secular (and there can be different definitions of the > word 'secular' here), but because people have to suffer a lot because of the > development policy we are following from the British times. This top down > approach ensures that people have to live at the margins, and in this > situation, they have no choice but to fight for themselves. > > 2) Secularism has never seeped in the society in my perception (here I am > considering two definitions: the Western definition or the tolerance of all > religions definition); it is just enshrined in the Constitution. Even today > if we ask people if riots should take place or not, they would obviously say > no because peace helps everybody to prosper economically and at least > ensures security of lives, which is precious for all. Secularism, as I see > it, is an elitist idea or elitist framework, and common people are least > bothered by it. > > Of course, if I go by Amartya Sen's perception, India was and is secular. > > > If people actually thought that their marginalization due to secularism is > the issue, they would have protested against this. Till now, the only fight > against marginalization has been against the current development paradigms > and the choices made as per this paradigm, like displacement due to dams, > land acquisition for factories and so on, or even unavailability of health > and education facilities for tribals and the downtrodden (in case of > Naxalism). > > Therefore, I believe the current development paradigm of benefiting the > rich at the cost of the poor is the major issue, and this can't be solved by > highway programmes or by economic reforms to benefit the corporates. What we > need is an understanding that we have to do the reverse of the 'top-down' > approach, and that is the 'bottom-top' approach, where we improve things at > the bottom, and automatically things will indeed improve at the top. > > That is why removing Modi or even giving him death sentence for his deeds > is not going to help, because there is a certain section in Gujarat which > strongly supports his activities, and will make a martyr of him even if he > goes to gallows. What is needed is the change in the mindset of these > people, and automatically Modi will have to change. > > More importantly violence must be abhorred not because I believe in > secularism or someone else believes in communalism; it should be abhorred > because it is against the basic right to life of human beings. This is > something even accepted by the Constitution of India, and should anyways be > accepted by all human beings. > > Hope you would also share your views on this. > > Regards > > Rakesh > From javedmasoo at gmail.com Wed Jun 10 15:50:43 2009 From: javedmasoo at gmail.com (M Javed) Date: Wed, 10 Jun 2009 15:50:43 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Fw: Re: we are all stunned In-Reply-To: <122790.97186.qm@web39103.mail.mud.yahoo.com> References: <122790.97186.qm@web39103.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: Dear Malik I do not represent what Muslim condemn and what they don't, nor do I want to prove for you that Muslims do condemn wrong-doings to non-Muslims. But since you have asked for it (it seems you don't read much newspapers), here are some links that are readily available. If one makes a thorough research, one could find many more.... Muslims Condemn Terrorist Attacks http://www.muhajabah.com/otherscondemn.php Muslims Condemn oppression against Sikhs http://worldmuslimcongress.blogspot.com/2009/05/muslims-condemn-oppression-against.html Geelani slams Muslims for Godhra carnage http://www.milligazette.com/Archives/15042002/1504200275.htm Bin Laden Distorts Islam, Islamic Scholars Say http://www.themodernreligion.com/terror/wtc-distortion.html GCC condemns the heinous killing of Kashmiri Pandits (signatories include many Muslims) http://www.milligazette.com/IndMusStat/2003a/gcc24mar03.htm Muslims Condemn Mumbai Terror http://www.islamonline.net/servlet/Satellite?c=Article_C&cid=1227792511156&pagename=Zone-English-News/NWELayout Muslims Condemn the Mumbai Rail bombings http://mikeghouse.sulekha.com/blog/post/2006/07/muslims-condemn-the-mumbai-rail-bombings.htm Muslims and others condemn attack on Swaminarayan temple in Gujarat: http://www.onlinevolunteers.org/gujarat/news/temple/ahmedabad-ngos.htm The Indian Muslims trial by fire http://www.thehindubusinessline.com/2001/11/14/stories/041455jr.htm Diplomats of Muslim countries condemn LTTE terror attack http://www.slmission.com/media-releases/21-ministry-media-releases-/279-diplomats-of-muslim-countries-condemn-ltte-terror-attack-in-akuressa.html Here is the link about UP minister Yaqub Qureshi announcing 51-crore award for beheading Danish cartoonist. But the same news item has a condemnation by members of the Muslim Personal Law Board. Many other Muslim groups and individuals had condemned this at that time. Should I send you some more links: http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/1580915/posts Javed On Wed, Jun 10, 2009 at 1:53 PM, A.K. Malik wrote: > > Hi Mr Javed, >            Why then everyone is interested to condemn Post-Godhra events day-in and day-out.Is it not one of the many cases?  Show me a similar tone for other cases, the ratio would come down to 100:1 If I remember correctly one of the ministers in UP Govt had publicly offered 51Crores to anyone beheading someone (I don't remember the name). > Give me the links when he was condemned by any prominent muslim. > It is everyone's right to speak or not to speak on any issue.But generalisations are based on certain data which are either easily available or are on the Public perception. > See Salman Khurshid's statement who only sees Muslims as downtrodden.If we belong to a majority religion so we must suffer. All sops should only be given to minorities, all sympathisers should be only for minorities so that they appeased and are a solid VOTE-BANK.Why not treat everyone equal, the Constitution Of India enjoins upon not to discriminate based on caste, creed or religion.LET US ALL BE TREATED AS INDIANS irrespective of belonging to any religion. > Regards, > (A.K.MALIK) > > > --- On Wed, 6/10/09, M Javed wrote: > >> From: M Javed >> Subject: Re: [Reader-list] Fw: Re: we are all stunned >> To: "A.K. Malik" >> Cc: "Vedavati Jogi" , "Sarai List" >> Date: Wednesday, June 10, 2009, 11:54 AM >> Dear Vedavati and Malik >> Firstly, it is wrong to say that Muslim leaders never >> condemn wrongs >> done to the people of other faiths. One can quote thousands >> of >> instances on Muslims condemning acts of terrorism and >> violence where >> people of other (non-Muslim) communities have been >> affected. (If you >> are interested, I can send the links and references). But a >> more >> important point is: why should we expect only Muslim >> leaders to come >> up with a condemnation? What does that prove? A >> condemnation of an >> event by someone may express one's honest angst about >> something, but >> it can also be a superficial lip-service to create a >> feel-good factor. >> Why should someone do a superficial media-act to show >> one's >> patriotism? If Muslims keep condemning the plight of >> Kashmiri pandits, >> will they get a certificate of bonafide Indian nationals? >> >> I really wonder what does a mere criticism or condemnation >> in public >> about an event mean anything? Does it heal the wounds of >> the affected >> people? Does it stop the perpetrators from their acts of >> violence? >> >> Javed >> >> On Wed, Jun 10, 2009 at 11:18 AM, A.K. Malik >> wrote: >> > >> > Hi, >> >      I agree and respect your views. I have rarely >> seen any muslim leader or others criticizing any wrong being >> done by people of their own faith except Hindus of course >> most of whom cry more for any atrocity on persons of >> specific religion and remain silent when it is on persons of >> their own religion. >> > There are thousands of so called seculars who have >> condemned post Godhra violence, very few for Godhra incident >> and almost none for atrocities on Kashmiri Hindus. >> > You are not "secular" unless you kick people of your >> own faith whether wrong or right is immaterial. >> > Regards, >> > >> > (A.K.MALIK) >> > >> > >> > --- On Wed, 6/10/09, Vedavati Jogi >> wrote: >> > >> >> From: Vedavati Jogi >> >> Subject: Re: [Reader-list] Fw: Re: i was stunned >> >> To: "A.K. Malik" >> >> Cc: reader-list at sarai.net >> >> Date: Wednesday, June 10, 2009, 10:21 AM >> >> thank you mr. malik for this >> >> mail. i know you are not a pseudo-secular, >> 'liberal' >> >> or 'thinker' etc. >> >> still you did not like the  idea of >> >> throwing muslims out of this country. >> >> >> >> this is the difference between hindus & >> >> muslims!  trust me i wanted to prove this to >> all. >> >> >> >> majority of muslims in pakistan or bangladesh, >> kashmir >> >>  even india, don't show this magnonimity towards >> >> hindus. i have not seen any muslim leader caring >> for hindu >> >> migrants from kashmir. >> >> >> >> yet sickulars in india keep talking about >> >> 'sufferings of muslims in india' >> >> this continuous hindubashing is responsible for >> >> creating gulf between citizens of different faiths >> in india >> >> . >> >> >> >> i am not a religious fanatic,  i would never >> want >> >> to throw any common citizen (irrespective of his >> or her >> >> faith) to be thrown out of this country. i possess >> great >> >> respect for dr. kalam, i just loved rafi, >> madhubala, i love >> >> to listen to jakir hussain's tabla and like to >> watch >> >> irfan pathan's game. list is very big! >> >> >> >> vedavati >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> --- On Tue, 9/6/09, A.K. Malik >> >> >> wrote: >> >> >> >> >> >> From: A.K. Malik >> >> Subject: Re: [Reader-list] Fw: Re: i was stunned >> >> To: "Vedavati Jogi" >> >> >> >> Cc: "Sarai List" >> >> Date: Tuesday, 9 June, 2009, 1:36 PM >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> Dear Vedvatiji, >> >> >> >>    I am normally a critcizer of Hindu bashing >> >> but I find this to be strange. What has Pakistan >> to do with >> >> Indian Muslims, they are Indian citizens as we are >> and have >> >> the same rights as we have? And who has given this >> power to >> >> Balasaheb Thakre to send Indian Citizens to >> Pakistan? It is >> >> a different matter if some are willing to go on >> their own >> >> accord and Pakistan is ready to accept them.If the >> same is >> >> being done to Indians in Australia and North >> America why are >> >> we then troubled. >> >> In this Globalised world, such a thinking will >> definitely >> >> bring another partition. >> >> I find the Press to be also responsible for >> bringing such a >> >> division amongst citizens. Newspaper headings: >> >> "A Woman and DALIT becomes speaker for the first >> >> time" >> >> "Vahanvati is first MUSLIM Attorney >> >> General"    Today's Times of India Front >> >> Page >> >> The emphasis is not the MERIT >> >>  which has brought them to these levels, it is on >> Dalit and >> >> Muslim as if they have become eligible only now or >> they have >> >> been appointed as if the requirement was for a >> Dalit and a >> >> Muslim and no merit was required.That is one >> reason I am >> >> against reservations of any kind. The >> help/assistance >> >> needs  only to be given for grooming. >> >> >> >> (A.K.MALIK) >> >> >> >> >> >> --- On Mon, 6/8/09, Vedavati Jogi >> >> wrote: >> >> >> >> > From: Vedavati Jogi >> >> > Subject: Re: [Reader-list] Fw: Re: i was >> stunned >> >> > To: "Venugopalan K M" >> >> > Cc: reader-list at sarai.net >> >> > Date: Monday, June 8, 2009, 7:07 PM >> >> > i don't speak for hindus, >> >> > i care for my nation! >> >> > this  socalled  philosophy of secularism >> and >> >> liberalism >> >> > is dividing the nation and disarming hindus >> >> > and i can't see my country being partitioned >> again >> >> . >> >> > >> >> > once balasaheb thakare had said, if pakistan >> wants >> >> kashmir >> >> > (because kashmir is a muslim majority state) >> then they >> >> will >> >> > have to accept 20 crore muslim refugees from >> india >> >> too. >> >> > >> >> > i support this statement. >> >> > >> >> > vedavati >> >> > --- On Sun, 7/6/09, Venugopalan K M >> >> > wrote: >> >> > >> >> > >> >> > From: Venugopalan K M >> >> > Subject: Re: [Reader-list] Fw: Re: i was >> stunned >> >> > To: "sarai-list" >> >> > Date: Sunday, 7 June, 2009, 3:38 PM >> >> > >> >> > >> >> > Ignorance may be bliss; arrogance might be >> bliss as >> >> well, >> >> > at least until >> >> > someone gets held up for rash assumptions on >> others.. >> >> > However, certain manifestations of ignorance >> plus >> >> arrogance >> >> > are better to be >> >> > left as they are; I believe that will be >> healthy for >> >> people >> >> > on both sides of >> >> > the divide.. >> >> > Feel no temptation to >> >>  dispute the contents here; >> >> > but who are you to speak for the entire >> Hindus in >> >> India,any >> >> > way? >> >> > >> >> > Peace and love, >> >> > Venu. >> >> > >> >> > On Sun, Jun 7, 2009 at 11:12 AM, Vedavati >> Jogi wrote: >> >> > >> >> > > >> >> > > >> >> > > >> >> > > >> >> > > >> >> > > >> >> > > >> >> > > >> >> > > >> >> > > >> >> > > good -that israel govt did not listen to >> you and >> >> > returned socalled occupied >> >> > > territories to palestinians. i never >> knew that >> >> there >> >> > are pseudo seculars in >> >> > > israel too (like india) >> >> > > >> >> > > you feel govt. of india should give >> autonomy to >> >> > kashmir, are you aware that >> >> > > kashmiri hindus have been thrown out of >> kashmir? >> >> > > do you find muslims so >> >>  trustworthy that in autonomous, >> >> > muslims dominated >> >> > > state hindus can remain safe? >> >> > > >> >> > > whole pakistan is a muslim occupied >> india, are >> >> you >> >> > aware of that? >> >> > > >> >> > >  vedavati >> >> > > >> >> > > --- On Sun, 7/6/09, Alex Stein >> >> > wrote: >> >> > > >> >> > > >> >> > > From: Alex Stein >> >> > > Subject: Re: i was stunned >> >> > > To: "Vedavati Jogi" >> >> > > Date: Sunday, 7 June, 2009, 2:58 AM >> >> > >> >>  > >> >> > > >> >> > > >> >> > > >> >> > > >> >> > > >> >> > > >> >> > > 1. I think we should return the >> Occupied >> >> Territories >> >> > (West Bank, Gaza, East >> >> > > Jerusalem) to the Palestinian people. >> >> > > >> >> > > 2. I never said I speak for Kashmir. >> >> > > >> >> > > 3. I think the valley should be >> autonomous >> >> (nobody >> >> > should be removed from >> >> > > their homes). >> >> > > >> >> > > 4. That is for you and Pakistan to >> decide over >> >> the >> >> > course - hopefully one >> >> > > day - of peace negotiations. >> >> > > >> >> > > A >> >> > > >> >> > > >> >> > > falsedichotomies.com >> >> > > >> >> > > "The most radical and the only secure >> form >> >> of >> >> > possession is destruction, >> >> > > for only what we have destroyed is >> safely and >> >> forever >> >> > ours." Hannah Arendt >> >> > > >> >> > > >> >> > > >> >> > > --- On Sat, 6/6/09, Vedavati Jogi >> >> > wrote: >> >> > > >> >> > > >> >> > > From: Vedavati Jogi >> >> > > Subject: Re: i was stunned >> >> > > To: "Alex Stein" >> >> > > Date: Saturday, 6 June, 2009, 7:38 PM >> >> > > >> >> > > >> >> > > >> >> > > >> >> > > >> >> > > >> >> > > >> >> > > hello alex, >> >> > > 1) will you give part of your country to >> any >> >> other >> >> > nation? >> >> > > 2) who has given you right to speak for >> kashmir? >> >> > > 3) if kashmir is given to muslims what >> about >> >>  those >> >> > hindus who have been >> >> > > living there since last thousand years? >> >> > > 4) will you dare to tell pakistan to >> give our >> >> land >> >> > back? >> >> > > vedavati >> >> > > >> >> > > --- On Sun, 7/6/09, Alex Stein >> >> > wrote: >> >> > > >> >> > > >> >> > > From: Alex Stein >> >> > > Subject: Re: i was stunned >> >> > > To: "Vedavati Jogi" >> >> > > Date: Sunday, 7 June, 2009, 2:27 AM >> >> > > >> >> > > >> >> > > >> >> > > >> >> > > >> >> > >> >>  > >> >> > > >> >> > > Hi Vedavti, >> >> > > Thanks for your email. >> >> > > We are not standing in opposition to >> Hindus. I >> >> deeply >> >> > love India, its >> >> > > culture and its people. I believe, >> though, that >> >> the >> >> > Kashmir people have a >> >> > > right to self-determination, just like >> anyone >> >> else, >> >> > and I believe that it is >> >> > > in India's interest to grant it to them, >> at >> >> least when >> >> > the time is right. >> >> > > Best wishes, >> >> > > Alex Stein >> >> > > >> >> > > PS - you may be interested in my blog of >> my >> >> travels in >> >> > India last summer - >> >> > > wanderingsatlan.blogspot.com >> >> > > >> >> > > >> >> > > falsedichotomies.com >> >> > > >> >> > > "The most radical and the only secure >> form >> >> of >> >> > possession is destruction, >> >> > > for only what we have destroyed is >> safely and >> >> forever >> >> > ours." Hannah Arendt >> >> > > >> >> > > >> >> > >> >>  > >> >> > > --- On Fri, 5/6/09, Vedavati Jogi >> >> > wrote: >> >> > > >> >> > > >> >> > > From: Vedavati Jogi >> >> > > Subject: i was stunned >> >> > > To: alex.stein at talk21.com >> >> > > Date: Friday, 5 June, 2009, 7:10 AM >> >> > > >> >> > > >> >> > > >> >> > > >> >> > > >> >> > > >> >> > > >> >> > > hello sir, >> >> > > >> >> > > i went thru. your article about >> >> 'jeuish-kashmiri >> >> > dialogue group >> >> > > honestly i was stunned. >> >> > > i believe you have >> >>  been told absoluetly wrong >> >> > history. >> >> > > >> >> > >  do you know how much these kashmiri >> hindus >> >> have >> >> > suffered at the hands of >> >> > > muslims in kashmir? >> >> > > >> >> > > hindusthan is the only country which >> gave shelter >> >> to >> >> > people of your >> >> > > religion whole heartedly that was >> because >> >> hindusthan >> >> > is a hindu dominated >> >> > > country. >> >> > > i really wonder how can you try to >> befriend >> >> muslims, >> >> > basically how can you >> >> > > trust them? have you people not suffered >> at the >> >> hands >> >> > of muslims? >> >> > > have you not heard about 'muslim >> >> brotherhood'? >> >> > > rightnow, you may think that muslims in >> kashmir >> >> were >> >> > friendly with you >> >> > > hence they are nice. but are you sure >> that when >> >> you >> >> > fight with other muslim >> >> > > countries, these same kashmiri friends >> of yours >> >> will >> >> > support you against the >> >> > > latter? >> >> > >> >>  > >> >> > > i sincerely feel, hindus, and not >> muslims >> >> can be >> >> > your natural allies. >> >> > > >> >> > > vedavati >> >> > > india >> >> > > >> >> > > >> >> > > Own a website.Get an unlimited >> package.Pay next >> >> to >> >> > nothing.* Click here!. >> >> > > >> >> > > >> >> > > >> >> > > Explore and discover exciting holidays >> and >> >> getaways >> >> > with Yahoo! India >> >> > > Travel Click here! >> >> > > >> >> > > >> >> > > >> >> > > Explore and discover exciting holidays >> and >> >> getaways >> >> > with Yahoo! India >> >> > > Travel Click here! >> >> > > >> >> > > >> >> > >      Explore and discover exciting >> >> holidays and >> >> > getaways with Yahoo! India >> >> > > Travel http://in.travel.yahoo.com/ >> >> > > >> _________________________________________ >> >> > > reader-list: an open discussion list on >> media and >> >>  the >> >> > city. >> >> > > Critiques & Collaborations >> >> > > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net >> >> > with >> >> > > subscribe in the subject header. >> >> > > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list >> >> > > List archive: >> >> > >> >> > >> >> > >> >> > >> >> > -- >> >> > http://venukm.blogspot.com/ >> >> > _________________________________________ >> >> > reader-list: an open discussion list on media >> and the >> >> > city. >> >> > Critiques & Collaborations >> >> > To >> >>  subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net >> >> > with subscribe in the subject header. >> >> > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list >> >> >> >> > List archive: >> >> > >> >> > >> >> >       Cricket on your mind? Visit the >> >> > ultimate cricket website. Enter http://beta.cricket.yahoo.com >> >> > _________________________________________ >> >> > reader-list: an open discussion list on media >> and the >> >> > city. >> >> > Critiques & Collaborations >> >> > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net >> >> > with subscribe in the subject header. >> >> > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list >> >> >> >> > List archive: >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >>        Cricket on your mind? Visit the >> >> ultimate cricket website. >> >> Enter now! >> > >> > >> > >> > _________________________________________ >> > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the >> city. >> > Critiques & Collaborations >> > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net >> with subscribe in the subject header. >> > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list >> > List archive: >> > > > > From c.anupam at gmail.com Wed Jun 10 16:19:32 2009 From: c.anupam at gmail.com (anupam chakravartty) Date: Wed, 10 Jun 2009 16:19:32 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] "Jemima Khan's broken country" In-Reply-To: <886946.77888.qm@web57201.mail.re3.yahoo.com> References: <886946.77888.qm@web57201.mail.re3.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <341380d00906100349o204a3767p702c352e9527e430@mail.gmail.com> indeed very poignant. thanks for sharing. "it’s the first time Imran has felt the need to have security — nods, adding that there are no Taliban. They are a fabrication by Jews and Hindus to destabilise Pakistan" -- shocking ..i didnt know there existed a theory of this sort too. -anupam On 6/9/09, Kshmendra Kaul wrote: > > A very well written article with some saddening and some delightful imagery > > Kshmendra > > > From The Sunday Times > June 7, 2009 > > > "Jemima Khan's broken country" > (In Pakistan, refugee children live with the trauma of having witnessed > beheadings, yet she still finds much to beguile her) > EXTRACTS: > > - Ten men are lined up and each one is filmed talking inaudibly to camera. > The first man is pinned to the ground by four others. His throat is slit > like a goat at Eid and his head held aloft by his hair. The Urdu subtitle > reads: “This is what happens to spies.” It's a Taliban home video — to > jaunty music — of serial beheadings. There are plenty of these doing the > rounds nowadays. > > - Before I leave, Imran’s chowkidar (watchman) tells me that the newspapers > in Pakistan are all funded by Yehudis (Jews). His Kalashnikov-toting > commando — it’s the first time Imran has felt the need to have security — > nods, adding that there are no Taliban. They are a fabrication by Jews and > Hindus to destabilise Pakistan. He adjusts his belt of bullets. > > - Pakistan pulsates with conspiracy theories. One, which has made it into > the local newspapers, is that the Taliban when caught and stripped were > revealed to have been “intact, not Muslims”, a euphemism for uncircumcised. > (Pakistanis are big on euphemisms.) Their beards were stuck on with glue. > “Foreign elements” (India) are suspected. > > - Two children are fighting over coloured crayons when I arrive. A girl > with blistered burns on her face from the sun shouts at a small boy who > turns out to be her brother: “If you don’t give them back to me I’ll tell > the Taliban and they’ll cut your throat.” > > - According to the teacher in the camp, every child has witnessed public > beheadings. Eight-year-old Amina explains quietly from behind her teacher > how she saw her uncle’s stomach gouged out by the Taliban. Another girl’s > mother was shot for not being in purdah. And another was shot at with her > family when she was walking outside during the curfew. Seven-year-old Bisma, > I’m told, has seen all the male members of her family hanged in what has > become known as Bloody Square. She doesn’t speak. > > - The children are equally afraid of the army. There’s a joke going round: > “What’s worse than being ruled by the Taliban? Being saved by the Pakistani > army.” When the chief minister landed in a helicopter next to the camp a few > days ago, I’m told, the children fled screaming in terror to their tents. > > - A boy called Salman hands me a precisely drawn and signed picture of a > Kalashnikov. A shy eight-year-old girl sitting cross-legged next to him, > with her grubby green dupatta half obscuring her smile, offers me hers of a > helicopter shelling a village. “That’s my house,” she says, pointing to some > scribbled rubble. > > - Their schools and homes have been destroyed. All have had relatives > killed. An orphanage in Mingora was caught in the crossfire when soldiers > based themselves on the roof of the building with 200 children trapped > inside. > > - There’s certainly support for the Taliban in the camps. They represent, > for many, an opposing force to an army that “drones” (it's now a verb here) > its own people. America’s war on terror, supported by the Pakistani army, is > unanimously viewed here as a war on Islam. Newborn twins have been named > Sufi Mohammad and Fazlullah after the two militant leaders in Swat. > > - You need only to read Salman Rushdie’s Shame to understand how important > honour (izzat) and reputation are — although I shouldn’t really write that. > The last time I admitted to having read Rushdie (for my university > dissertation on post-colonial literature), I had a thousand placard-waving > beards outside my door and adverts in the papers, calling me an apostate and > demanding that my citizenship be revoked. > > - Like everyone here he likes to opine: where Pakistan has gone wrong, > where politicians have gone wrong, where the interpreters of Islam have gone > wrong, where Imran has gone wrong and, by the end of our stay, where I’ve > gone wrong. He also loves to eat, usually after midnight. > > - JP, a film-maker friend, is here to research a film about Pakistan. We > head for tea with Iqbal Hussein, who paints dancing girls from the red-light > district for a living. His mother was a prostitute. > > - As we arrive he is packing up his paints. His models, two gypsy sisters, > one clutching a baby, are sitting quietly motionless on a mattress in a > dark, windowless back room in his studio. Every half an hour in Pakistan > there’s “load shedding”, when the electricity cuts out. > > - We sit in candlelight in the thick, still heat and the girls sing > classical songs, using upturned metal cups as instruments. Chewing betel > nut, they giggle and reveal red-stained teeth. We cheer and clap and chuck > rupees in appreciation. > > - He shows me a video on his mobile phone of his five-year-old son > performing qawwali. He has been training the child since he was two. The > little boy sits cross-legged on a chintzy sofa, raises his tiny palms to > heaven imploringly, closes his eyes and starts to sing, smashing his hands > back down on make-believe tublas and throwing his head back in mock ecstasy > with all the passion and panache of his ancestors. > > - She tells us that Indians are all “cry babies” and Muslims would do > better to be cry babies, too, and that way gain equal levels of sympathy > abroad. I like her forthrightness. She says things others wouldn’t dare to > say here, albeit euphemistically. > > - Pakistani actresses and models have traditionally emerged from the > red-light area. They must have “friends”, she adds for good measure. Dosti > (friendship) is a euphemism for client, while shadi (marriage) means sex > with a client. > > - The airport was the first glimpse I had of Pakistan all those years ago. > It’s the country I feel I grew up in and was a part of, arriving at 20 and > emerging a decade later a more questioning and conflicted person. I am still > maddened by its faults but I bristle and become defensive if others > criticise. > > - As we’re jostled along towards the check-in area, I think about Pakistani > society. It is an endless contradiction — hostile and hospitable, > euphemistic and unambiguous, spiritual and prescriptive, aggressor and > victim. Nothing sums up its topsy-turvy nature quite like the Heera Mandi in > Lahore, one of the most conservative cities, where the prostitutes wear > burqas and girls with honour dress like Wags. > > > http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/world/asia/article6446446.ece?token=null&offset=0&page=1 > > > > > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > subscribe in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: From kshmendra2005 at yahoo.com Wed Jun 10 17:22:16 2009 From: kshmendra2005 at yahoo.com (Kshmendra Kaul) Date: Wed, 10 Jun 2009 04:52:16 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Reader-list] "Jemima Khan's broken country" Message-ID: <112565.16114.qm@web57201.mail.re3.yahoo.com> Anupam - "shocking ..i didnt know there existed a theory of this sort too."   Sure exists. Not as some maverick comment or from a lunatic fringe but firmly believed in and propagated by many "serious" commentators. Has a strong following.   At the same time, perhaps realising the idiocy of such a theory and the harm it's entrenchment is doing to Pakistan's need to introspect on how it has landed in the mess it is currently in, there are an increasing number of public voices in Pakistan who are ridiculing such 'conspiracy theorists' and asking Pakistan to 'get real'.   Apart from the 'there is no such thing as Taliban' opinion-set, there is also often the disctinction made between 'Good Taliban' (fight India, USA, Israel) and 'Bad Taliban' (fight Pakistan Army and Burn Schools and Behead Pakistanis etc).   The famous? / notorious? Gen Hameed Gul has this to say in an interview for Greater Kashmir about a question whether those being fought by the Pakistan Army in Swat are Taliban:   """""" No, they are not Taliban, they are mercenaries, playing in the hands of foreign agencies; they are funded, trained and equipped by these agencies. In the guise of Taliban, these mercenaries have let loose rein of terror in the area. The genuine Taliban are actually fighting against American and NATO forces in Afghanistan. As for as the people of Swat are concerned I told you earlier that they wanted the legal system, that is not actually the problem. During Mughal rule the whole of India enjoyed that legal system. It is only after the Anglo-Saxon law, introduced by British; we got the present judicial system where right is wrong and wrong is right.   So the peoples’ demand was natural. But the Indians sitting across the Durand-Line on the other side in Afghanistan wanted to destabilize Pakistan. Taking advantage of the situation, Indians played the same game that it had played in erstwhile East Pakistan. You know they first incited people and made them migrate and then used it as an excuse and attacked Pakistan. And this is the replay of the same game being played out now. Not only India, Israel is fully involved in this game, although they are not concerned about Sharia, they basically want to denuclearize Pakistan. Both Indians and Israelites are afraid of the nuclear power of Pakistan. """""""   AND ALSO:   """""" Islamization, they are very much worried about that, but so far as the Talibanization in Pakistan is concerned, first of all they are not Taliban as a matter of the fact they are mercenaries who are hell-bent on destabilizing Pakistan. Secondly Americans believe that Talibanization brings a bad name to Islam and Sharia. So they are happy about it. Taliban and Talibanization, this is not applicable in Pakistan. The real Taliban are actually fighting against foreign troops in Afghanistan and they have nothing to do with Pakistan. """"""" http://www.greaterkashmir.com/full_story.asp?Date=9_6_2009&ItemID=16&cat=9 It should be remembered that Hameed Gul is a very influential voice in Pakistan. And, he is just one amongst many voices who propagate similar views.   Kshmendra   --- On Wed, 6/10/09, anupam chakravartty wrote: From: anupam chakravartty Subject: Re: [Reader-list] "Jemima Khan's broken country" To: "sarai list" Date: Wednesday, June 10, 2009, 4:19 PM indeed very poignant. thanks for sharing. "it’s the first time Imran has felt the need to have security — nods, adding that there are no Taliban. They are a fabrication by Jews and Hindus to destabilise Pakistan" -- shocking ..i didnt know there existed a theory of this sort too. -anupam On 6/9/09, Kshmendra Kaul wrote: > > A very well written article with some saddening and some delightful imagery > > Kshmendra > > > From The Sunday Times > June 7, 2009 > > > "Jemima Khan's broken country" > (In Pakistan, refugee children live with the trauma of having witnessed > beheadings, yet she still finds much to beguile her) > EXTRACTS: > > - Ten men are lined up and each one is filmed talking inaudibly to camera. > The first man is pinned to the ground by four others. His throat is slit > like a goat at Eid and his head held aloft by his hair. The Urdu subtitle > reads: “This is what happens to spies.” It's a Taliban home video — to > jaunty music — of serial beheadings. There are plenty of these doing the > rounds nowadays. > > - Before I leave, Imran’s chowkidar (watchman) tells me that the newspapers > in Pakistan are all funded by Yehudis (Jews). His Kalashnikov-toting > commando — it’s the first time Imran has felt the need to have security — > nods, adding that there are no Taliban. They are a fabrication by Jews and > Hindus to destabilise Pakistan. He adjusts his belt of bullets. > > - Pakistan pulsates with conspiracy theories. One, which has made it into > the local newspapers, is that the Taliban when caught and stripped were > revealed to have been “intact, not Muslims”, a euphemism for uncircumcised. > (Pakistanis are big on euphemisms.) Their beards were stuck on with glue. > “Foreign elements” (India) are suspected. > > - Two children are fighting over coloured crayons when I arrive. A girl > with blistered burns on her face from the sun shouts at a small boy who > turns out to be her brother: “If you don’t give them back to me I’ll tell > the Taliban and they’ll cut your throat.” > > - According to the teacher in the camp, every child has witnessed public > beheadings. Eight-year-old Amina explains quietly from behind her teacher > how she saw her uncle’s stomach gouged out by the Taliban. Another girl’s > mother was shot for not being in purdah. And another was shot at with her > family when she was walking outside during the curfew. Seven-year-old Bisma, > I’m told, has seen all the male members of her family hanged in what has > become known as Bloody Square. She doesn’t speak. > > - The children are equally afraid of the army. There’s a joke going round: > “What’s worse than being ruled by the Taliban? Being saved by the Pakistani > army.” When the chief minister landed in a helicopter next to the camp a few > days ago, I’m told, the children fled screaming in terror to their tents. > > - A boy called Salman hands me a precisely drawn and signed picture of a > Kalashnikov. A shy eight-year-old girl sitting cross-legged next to him, > with her grubby green dupatta half obscuring her smile, offers me hers of a > helicopter shelling a village. “That’s my house,” she says, pointing to some > scribbled rubble. > > - Their schools and homes have been destroyed. All have had relatives > killed. An orphanage in Mingora was caught in the crossfire when soldiers > based themselves on the roof of the building with 200 children trapped > inside. > > - There’s certainly support for the Taliban in the camps. They represent, > for many, an opposing force to an army that “drones” (it's now a verb here) > its own people. America’s war on terror, supported by the Pakistani army, is > unanimously viewed here as a war on Islam. Newborn twins have been named > Sufi Mohammad and Fazlullah after the two militant leaders in Swat. > > - You need only to read Salman Rushdie’s Shame to understand how important > honour (izzat) and reputation are — although I shouldn’t really write that. > The last time I admitted to having read Rushdie (for my university > dissertation on post-colonial literature), I had a thousand placard-waving > beards outside my door and adverts in the papers, calling me an apostate and > demanding that my citizenship be revoked. > > - Like everyone here he likes to opine: where Pakistan has gone wrong, > where politicians have gone wrong, where the interpreters of Islam have gone > wrong, where Imran has gone wrong and, by the end of our stay, where From kshmendra2005 at yahoo.com Wed Jun 10 17:28:07 2009 From: kshmendra2005 at yahoo.com (Kshmendra Kaul) Date: Wed, 10 Jun 2009 04:58:07 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Reader-list] "Jemima Khan's broken country" (Hameed Gul weblink) Message-ID: <999574.55380.qm@web57208.mail.re3.yahoo.com> There seems to be a problem with the weblink I had posted for the Greater Kashmir Interview of Gen Hameed Gul.   It can alternatively be read at http://www.kashmirwatch.com/showheadlines.php?subaction=showfull&id=1244532236&archive=&start_from=&ucat=1&var0news=value0news   --- On Wed, 6/10/09, Kshmendra Kaul wrote: From: Kshmendra Kaul Subject: Re: [Reader-list] "Jemima Khan's broken country" To: "sarai list" , "anupam chakravartty" Date: Wednesday, June 10, 2009, 5:22 PM Anupam - "shocking ..i didnt know there existed a theory of this sort too."   Sure exists. Not as some maverick comment or from a lunatic fringe but firmly believed in and propagated by many "serious" commentators. Has a strong following.   At the same time, perhaps realising the idiocy of such a theory and the harm it's entrenchment is doing to Pakistan's need to introspect on how it has landed in the mess it is currently in, there are an increasing number of public voices in Pakistan who are ridiculing such 'conspiracy theorists' and asking Pakistan to 'get real'.   Apart from the 'there is no such thing as Taliban' opinion-set, there is also often the disctinction made between 'Good Taliban' (fight India, USA, Israel) and 'Bad Taliban' (fight Pakistan Army and Burn Schools and Behead Pakistanis etc).   The famous? / notorious? Gen Hameed Gul has this to say in an interview for Greater Kashmir about a question whether those being fought by the Pakistan Army in Swat are Taliban:   """""" No, they are not Taliban, they are mercenaries, playing in the hands of foreign agencies; they are funded, trained and equipped by these agencies. In the guise of Taliban, these mercenaries have let loose rein of terror in the area. The genuine Taliban are actually fighting against American and NATO forces in Afghanistan. As for as the people of Swat are concerned I told you earlier that they wanted the legal system, that is not actually the problem. During Mughal rule the whole of India enjoyed that legal system. It is only after the Anglo-Saxon law, introduced by British; we got the present judicial system where right is wrong and wrong is right.   So the peoples’ demand was natural. But the Indians sitting across the Durand-Line on the other side in Afghanistan wanted to destabilize Pakistan. Taking advantage of the situation, Indians played the same game that it had played in erstwhile East Pakistan. You know they first incited people and made them migrate and then used it as an excuse and attacked Pakistan. And this is the replay of the same game being played out now. Not only India, Israel is fully involved in this game, although they are not concerned about Sharia, they basically want to denuclearize Pakistan. Both Indians and Israelites are afraid of the nuclear power of Pakistan. """""""   AND ALSO:   """""" Islamization, they are very much worried about that, but so far as the Talibanization in Pakistan is concerned, first of all they are not Taliban as a matter of the fact they are mercenaries who are hell-bent on destabilizing Pakistan. Secondly Americans believe that Talibanization brings a bad name to Islam and Sharia. So they are happy about it. Taliban and Talibanization, this is not applicable in Pakistan. The real Taliban are actually fighting against foreign troops in Afghanistan and they have nothing to do with Pakistan. """"""" http://www.greaterkashmir.com/full_story.asp?Date=9_6_2009&ItemID=16&cat=9 It should be remembered that Hameed Gul is a very influential voice in Pakistan. And, he is just one amongst many voices who propagate similar views.   Kshmendra   --- On Wed, 6/10/09, anupam chakravartty wrote: From: anupam chakravartty Subject: Re: [Reader-list] "Jemima Khan's broken country" To: "sarai list" Date: Wednesday, June 10, 2009, 4:19 PM indeed very poignant. thanks for sharing. "it’s the first time Imran has felt the need to have security — nods, adding that there are no Taliban. They are a fabrication by Jews and Hindus to destabilise Pakistan" -- shocking ..i didnt know there existed a theory of this sort too. -anupam On 6/9/09, Kshmendra Kaul wrote: > > A very well written article with some saddening and some delightful imagery > > Kshmendra > > > From The Sunday Times > June 7, 2009 > > > "Jemima Khan's broken country" > (In Pakistan, refugee children live with the trauma of having witnessed > beheadings, yet she still finds much to beguile her) > EXTRACTS: > > - Ten men are lined up and each one is filmed talking inaudibly to camera. > The first man is pinned to the ground by four others. His throat is slit > like a goat at Eid and his head held aloft by his hair. The Urdu subtitle > reads: “This is what happens to spies.” It's a Taliban home video — to > jaunty music — of serial beheadings. There are plenty of these doing the > rounds nowadays. > > - Before I leave, Imran’s chowkidar (watchman) tells me that the newspapers > in Pakistan are all funded by Yehudis (Jews). His Kalashnikov-toting > commando — it’s the first time Imran has felt the need to have security — > nods, adding that there are no Taliban. They are a fabrication by Jews and > Hindus to destabilise Pakistan. He adjusts his belt of bullets. > > - Pakistan pulsates with conspiracy theories. One, which has made it into > the local newspapers, is that the Taliban when caught and stripped were > revealed to have been “intact, not Muslims”, a euphemism for uncircumcised. > (Pakistanis are big on euphemisms.) Their beards were stuck on with glue. > “Foreign elements” (India) are suspected. > > - Two children are fighting over coloured crayons when I arrive. A girl > with blistered burns on her face from the sun shouts at a small boy who > turns out to be her brother: “If you don’t give them back to me I’ll tell > the Taliban and they’ll cut your throat.” > > - According to the teacher in the camp, every child has witnessed public > beheadings. Eight-year-old Amina explains quietly from behind her teacher > how she saw her uncle’s stomach gouged out by the Taliban. Another girl’s > mother was shot for not being in purdah. And another was shot at with her > family when she was walking outside during the curfew. Seven-year-old Bisma, > I’m told, has seen all the male members of her family hanged in what has > become known as Bloody Square. She doesn’t speak. > > - The children are equally afraid of the army. There’s a joke going round: > “What’s worse than being ruled by the Taliban? Being saved by the Pakistani > army.” When the chief minister landed in a helicopter next to the camp a few > days ago, I’m told, the children fled screaming in terror to their tents. > > - A boy called Salman hands me a precisely drawn and signed picture of a > Kalashnikov. A shy eight-year-old girl sitting cross-legged next to him, > with her grubby green dupatta half obscuring her smile, offers me hers of a > helicopter shelling a village. “That’s my house,” she says, pointing to some > scribbled rubble. > > - Their schools and homes have been destroyed. All have had relatives > killed. An orphanage in Mingora was caught in the crossfire when soldiers > based themselves on the roof of the building with 200 children trapped > inside. > > - There’s certainly support for the Taliban in the camps. They represent, > for many, an opposing force to an army that “drones” (it's now a verb here) > its own people. America’s war on terror, supported by the Pakistani army, is > unanimously viewed here as a war on Islam. Newborn twins have been named > Sufi Mohammad and Fazlullah after the two militant leaders in Swat. > > - You need only to read Salman Rushdie’s Shame to understand how important > honour (izzat) and reputation are — although I shouldn’t really write that. > The last time I admitted to having read Rushdie (for my university > dissertation on post-colonial literature), I had a thousand placard-waving > beards outside my door and adverts in the papers, calling me an apostate and > demanding that my citizenship be revoked. > > - Like everyone here he likes to opine: where Pakistan has gone wrong, > where politicians have gone wrong, where the interpreters of Islam have gone > wrong, where Imran has gone wrong and, by the end of our stay, where       _________________________________________ reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. Critiques & Collaborations To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with subscribe in the subject header. To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> From rahul_capri at yahoo.com Wed Jun 10 18:08:26 2009 From: rahul_capri at yahoo.com (Rahul Asthana) Date: Wed, 10 Jun 2009 05:38:26 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Reader-list] "Jemima Khan's broken country" Message-ID: <521217.98833.qm@web53611.mail.re2.yahoo.com> Search for Zaid Hamid on youtube. Or look for "Ideology of Hindu Zionism" and many other such by Zaid Hamid on Google video. --- On Wed, 6/10/09, Kshmendra Kaul wrote: > From: Kshmendra Kaul > Subject: Re: [Reader-list] "Jemima Khan's broken country" > To: "sarai list" , "anupam chakravartty" > Date: Wednesday, June 10, 2009, 5:22 PM > Anupam - "shocking ..i didnt know > there existed a theory of this sort too." >   > Sure exists. Not as some maverick comment or from a lunatic > fringe but firmly believed in and propagated by many > "serious" commentators. Has a strong following. >   > At the same time, perhaps realising the idiocy of such a > theory and the harm it's entrenchment is doing to > Pakistan's need to introspect on how it has landed in the > mess it is currently in, there are an increasing number of > public voices in Pakistan who are ridiculing such > 'conspiracy theorists' and asking Pakistan to 'get real'. >   > Apart from the 'there is no such thing as Taliban' > opinion-set, there is also often the disctinction made > between 'Good Taliban' (fight India, USA, Israel) and 'Bad > Taliban' (fight Pakistan Army and Burn Schools and Behead > Pakistanis etc). >   > The famous? / notorious? Gen Hameed Gul has this to say in > an interview for Greater Kashmir about a question whether > those being fought by the Pakistan Army in Swat are > Taliban: >   > """""" No, they are not Taliban, they are mercenaries, > playing in the hands of foreign agencies; they are funded, > trained and equipped by these agencies. In the guise of > Taliban, these mercenaries have let loose rein of terror in > the area. > > The genuine Taliban are actually fighting against American > and NATO forces in Afghanistan. > > As for as the people of Swat are concerned I told you > earlier that they wanted the legal system, that is not > actually the problem. During Mughal rule the whole of India > enjoyed that legal system. It is only after the Anglo-Saxon > law, introduced by British; we got the present judicial > system where right is wrong and wrong is right. >   > So the peoples’ demand was natural. But the Indians > sitting across the Durand-Line on the other side in > Afghanistan wanted to destabilize Pakistan. Taking advantage > of the situation, Indians played the same game that it had > played in erstwhile East Pakistan. You know they first > incited people and made them migrate and then used it as an > excuse and attacked Pakistan. And this is the replay of the > same game being played out now. > > Not only India, Israel is fully involved in this game, > although they are not concerned about Sharia, they basically > want to denuclearize Pakistan. Both Indians and Israelites > are afraid of the nuclear power of Pakistan. """"""" >   > AND ALSO: >   > """""" Islamization, they are very much worried about that, > but so far as the Talibanization in Pakistan is concerned, > first of all they are not Taliban as a matter of the fact > they are mercenaries who are hell-bent on destabilizing > Pakistan. Secondly Americans believe that Talibanization > brings a bad name to Islam and Sharia. So they are happy > about it. > > Taliban and Talibanization, this is not applicable in > Pakistan. The real Taliban are actually fighting against > foreign troops in Afghanistan and they have nothing to do > with Pakistan. > """"""" > http://www.greaterkashmir.com/full_story.asp?Date=9_6_2009&ItemID=16&cat=9 > > It should be remembered that Hameed Gul is a very > influential voice in Pakistan. And, he is just one amongst > many voices who propagate similar views. >   > Kshmendra >   > > --- On Wed, 6/10/09, anupam chakravartty > wrote: > > > From: anupam chakravartty > Subject: Re: [Reader-list] "Jemima Khan's broken country" > To: "sarai list" > Date: Wednesday, June 10, 2009, 4:19 PM > > > indeed very poignant. thanks for sharing. > > "it’s the first time Imran has felt the need to have > security — nods, > adding that there are no Taliban. They are a fabrication by > Jews and Hindus > to destabilise Pakistan" -- shocking ..i didnt know there > existed a theory > of this sort too. > > -anupam > > > On 6/9/09, Kshmendra Kaul > wrote: > > > > A very well written article with some saddening and > some delightful imagery > > > > Kshmendra > > > > > > From The Sunday Times > > June 7, 2009 > > > > > > "Jemima Khan's broken country" > > (In Pakistan, refugee children live with the trauma of > having witnessed > > beheadings, yet she still finds much to beguile her) > > EXTRACTS: > > > > - Ten men are lined up and each one is filmed talking > inaudibly to camera. > > The first man is pinned to the ground by four others. > His throat is slit > > like a goat at Eid and his head held aloft by his > hair. The Urdu subtitle > > reads: “This is what happens to spies.” It's a > Taliban home video — to > > jaunty music — of serial beheadings. There are > plenty of these doing the > > rounds nowadays. > > > > - Before I leave, Imran’s chowkidar (watchman) tells > me that the newspapers > > in Pakistan are all funded by Yehudis (Jews). His > Kalashnikov-toting > > commando — it’s the first time Imran has felt the > need to have security — > > nods, adding that there are no Taliban. They are a > fabrication by Jews and > > Hindus to destabilise Pakistan. He adjusts his belt of > bullets. > > > > - Pakistan pulsates with conspiracy theories. One, > which has made it into > > the local newspapers, is that the Taliban when caught > and stripped were > > revealed to have been “intact, not Muslims”, a > euphemism for uncircumcised. > > (Pakistanis are big on euphemisms.) Their beards were > stuck on with glue. > > “Foreign elements” (India) are suspected. > > > > - Two children are fighting over coloured crayons when > I arrive. A girl > > with blistered burns on her face from the sun shouts > at a small boy who > > turns out to be her brother: “If you don’t give > them back to me I’ll tell > > the Taliban and they’ll cut your throat.” > > > > - According to the teacher in the camp, every child > has witnessed public > > beheadings. Eight-year-old Amina explains quietly from > behind her teacher > > how she saw her uncle’s stomach gouged out by the > Taliban. Another girl’s > > mother was shot for not being in purdah. And another > was shot at with her > > family when she was walking outside during the curfew. > Seven-year-old Bisma, > > I’m told, has seen all the male members of her > family hanged in what has > > become known as Bloody Square. She doesn’t speak. > > > > - The children are equally afraid of the army. > There’s a joke going round: > > “What’s worse than being ruled by the Taliban? > Being saved by the Pakistani > > army.” When the chief minister landed in a > helicopter next to the camp a few > > days ago, I’m told, the children fled screaming in > terror to their tents. > > > > - A boy called Salman hands me a precisely drawn and > signed picture of a > > Kalashnikov. A shy eight-year-old girl sitting > cross-legged next to him, > > with her grubby green dupatta half obscuring her > smile, offers me hers of a > > helicopter shelling a village. “That’s my > house,” she says, pointing to some > > scribbled rubble. > > > > - Their schools and homes have been destroyed. All > have had relatives > > killed. An orphanage in Mingora was caught in the > crossfire when soldiers > > based themselves on the roof of the building with 200 > children trapped > > inside. > > > > - There’s certainly support for the Taliban in the > camps. They represent, > > for many, an opposing force to an army that > “drones” (it's now a verb here) > > its own people. America’s war on terror, supported > by the Pakistani army, is > > unanimously viewed here as a war on Islam. Newborn > twins have been named > > Sufi Mohammad and Fazlullah after the two militant > leaders in Swat. > > > > - You need only to read Salman Rushdie’s Shame to > understand how important > > honour (izzat) and reputation are — although I > shouldn’t really write that. > > The last time I admitted to having read Rushdie (for > my university > > dissertation on post-colonial literature), I had a > thousand placard-waving > > beards outside my door and adverts in the papers, > calling me an apostate and > > demanding that my citizenship be revoked. > > > > - Like everyone here he likes to opine: where Pakistan > has gone wrong, > > where politicians have gone wrong, where the > interpreters of Islam have gone > > wrong, where Imran has gone wrong and, by the end of > our stay, where > > >       > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the > city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net > with subscribe in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> From akmalik45 at yahoo.com Wed Jun 10 19:07:48 2009 From: akmalik45 at yahoo.com (A.K. Malik) Date: Wed, 10 Jun 2009 06:37:48 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Reader-list] Fw: Re: we are all stunned Message-ID: <527047.52685.qm@web39105.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Dear Mr Javed, I stand corrected pl. (A.K.MALIK) --- On Wed, 6/10/09, M Javed wrote: > From: M Javed > Subject: Re: [Reader-list] Fw: Re: we are all stunned > To: "A.K. Malik" > Cc: "Sarai List" > Date: Wednesday, June 10, 2009, 3:50 PM > Dear Malik > I do not represent what Muslim condemn and what they don't, > nor do I > want to prove for you that Muslims do condemn wrong-doings > to > non-Muslims. But since you have asked for it (it seems you > don't read > much newspapers), here are some links that are readily > available. If > one makes a thorough research, one could find many > more.... > > Muslims Condemn Terrorist Attacks > http://www.muhajabah.com/otherscondemn.php > > Muslims Condemn oppression against Sikhs > http://worldmuslimcongress.blogspot.com/2009/05/muslims-condemn-oppression-against.html > > Geelani slams Muslims for Godhra carnage > http://www.milligazette.com/Archives/15042002/1504200275.htm > > Bin Laden Distorts Islam, Islamic Scholars Say > http://www.themodernreligion.com/terror/wtc-distortion.html > > GCC condemns the heinous killing of Kashmiri Pandits > (signatories > include many Muslims) > http://www.milligazette.com/IndMusStat/2003a/gcc24mar03.htm > > Muslims Condemn Mumbai Terror > http://www.islamonline.net/servlet/Satellite?c=Article_C&cid=1227792511156&pagename=Zone-English-News/NWELayout > > Muslims Condemn the Mumbai Rail bombings > http://mikeghouse.sulekha.com/blog/post/2006/07/muslims-condemn-the-mumbai-rail-bombings.htm > > Muslims and others condemn attack on Swaminarayan temple in > Gujarat: > http://www.onlinevolunteers.org/gujarat/news/temple/ahmedabad-ngos.htm > > The Indian Muslims trial by fire > http://www.thehindubusinessline.com/2001/11/14/stories/041455jr.htm > > Diplomats of Muslim countries condemn LTTE terror attack > http://www.slmission.com/media-releases/21-ministry-media-releases-/279-diplomats-of-muslim-countries-condemn-ltte-terror-attack-in-akuressa.html > > Here is the link about UP minister Yaqub Qureshi announcing > 51-crore > award for beheading Danish cartoonist. But the same news > item has a > condemnation by members of the Muslim Personal Law Board. > Many other > Muslim groups and individuals had condemned this at that > time. Should > I send you some more links: > > http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/1580915/posts > > Javed > > On Wed, Jun 10, 2009 at 1:53 PM, A.K. Malik > wrote: > > > > Hi Mr Javed, > >            Why then everyone is interested to > condemn Post-Godhra events day-in and day-out.Is it not one > of the many cases?  Show me a similar tone for other cases, > the ratio would come down to 100:1 If I remember correctly > one of the ministers in UP Govt had publicly offered > 51Crores to anyone beheading someone (I don't remember the > name). > > Give me the links when he was condemned by any > prominent muslim. > > It is everyone's right to speak or not to speak on any > issue.But generalisations are based on certain data which > are either easily available or are on the Public > perception. > > See Salman Khurshid's statement who only sees Muslims > as downtrodden.If we belong to a majority religion so we > must suffer. All sops should only be given to minorities, > all sympathisers should be only for minorities so that they > appeased and are a solid VOTE-BANK.Why not treat everyone > equal, the Constitution Of India enjoins upon not to > discriminate based on caste, creed or religion.LET US ALL BE > TREATED AS INDIANS irrespective of belonging to any > religion. > > Regards, > > (A.K.MALIK) > > > > > > --- On Wed, 6/10/09, M Javed > wrote: > > > >> From: M Javed > >> Subject: Re: [Reader-list] Fw: Re: we are all > stunned > >> To: "A.K. Malik" > >> Cc: "Vedavati Jogi" , > "Sarai List" > >> Date: Wednesday, June 10, 2009, 11:54 AM > >> Dear Vedavati and Malik > >> Firstly, it is wrong to say that Muslim leaders > never > >> condemn wrongs > >> done to the people of other faiths. One can quote > thousands > >> of > >> instances on Muslims condemning acts of terrorism > and > >> violence where > >> people of other (non-Muslim) communities have > been > >> affected. (If you > >> are interested, I can send the links and > references). But a > >> more > >> important point is: why should we expect only > Muslim > >> leaders to come > >> up with a condemnation? What does that prove? A > >> condemnation of an > >> event by someone may express one's honest angst > about > >> something, but > >> it can also be a superficial lip-service to create > a > >> feel-good factor. > >> Why should someone do a superficial media-act to > show > >> one's > >> patriotism? If Muslims keep condemning the plight > of > >> Kashmiri pandits, > >> will they get a certificate of bonafide Indian > nationals? > >> > >> I really wonder what does a mere criticism or > condemnation > >> in public > >> about an event mean anything? Does it heal the > wounds of > >> the affected > >> people? Does it stop the perpetrators from their > acts of > >> violence? > >> > >> Javed > >> > >> On Wed, Jun 10, 2009 at 11:18 AM, A.K. Malik > >> wrote: > >> > > >> > Hi, > >> >      I agree and respect your views. I > have rarely > >> seen any muslim leader or others criticizing any > wrong being > >> done by people of their own faith except Hindus of > course > >> most of whom cry more for any atrocity on persons > of > >> specific religion and remain silent when it is on > persons of > >> their own religion. > >> > There are thousands of so called seculars who > have > >> condemned post Godhra violence, very few for > Godhra incident > >> and almost none for atrocities on Kashmiri > Hindus. > >> > You are not "secular" unless you kick people > of your > >> own faith whether wrong or right is immaterial. > >> > Regards, > >> > > >> > (A.K.MALIK) > >> > > >> > > >> > --- On Wed, 6/10/09, Vedavati Jogi > >> wrote: > >> > > >> >> From: Vedavati Jogi > >> >> Subject: Re: [Reader-list] Fw: Re: i was > stunned > >> >> To: "A.K. Malik" > >> >> Cc: reader-list at sarai.net > >> >> Date: Wednesday, June 10, 2009, 10:21 AM > >> >> thank you mr. malik for this > >> >> mail. i know you are not a > pseudo-secular, > >> 'liberal' > >> >> or 'thinker' etc. > >> >> still you did not like the  idea of > >> >> throwing muslims out of this country. > >> >> > >> >> this is the difference between hindus > & > >> >> muslims!  trust me i wanted to prove > this to > >> all. > >> >> > >> >> majority of muslims in pakistan or > bangladesh, > >> kashmir > >> >>  even india, don't show this magnonimity > towards > >> >> hindus. i have not seen any muslim leader > caring > >> for hindu > >> >> migrants from kashmir. > >> >> > >> >> yet sickulars in india keep talking > about > >> >> 'sufferings of muslims in india' > >> >> this continuous hindubashing is > responsible for > >> >> creating gulf between citizens of > different faiths > >> in india > >> >> . > >> >> > >> >> i am not a religious fanatic,  i would > never > >> want > >> >> to throw any common citizen (irrespective > of his > >> or her > >> >> faith) to be thrown out of this country. > i possess > >> great > >> >> respect for dr. kalam, i just loved > rafi, > >> madhubala, i love > >> >> to listen to jakir hussain's tabla and > like to > >> watch > >> >> irfan pathan's game. list is very big! > >> >> > >> >> vedavati > >> >> > >> >> > >> >> > >> >> > >> >> > >> >> > >> >> --- On Tue, 9/6/09, A.K. Malik > >> >> > >> wrote: > >> >> > >> >> > >> >> From: A.K. Malik > >> >> Subject: Re: [Reader-list] Fw: Re: i was > stunned > >> >> To: "Vedavati Jogi" > >> >> > >> >> Cc: "Sarai List" > >> >> Date: Tuesday, 9 June, 2009, 1:36 PM > >> >> > >> >> > >> >> > >> >> Dear Vedvatiji, > >> >> > >> >>    I am normally a critcizer of Hindu > bashing > >> >> but I find this to be strange. What has > Pakistan > >> to do with > >> >> Indian Muslims, they are Indian citizens > as we are > >> and have > >> >> the same rights as we have? And who has > given this > >> power to > >> >> Balasaheb Thakre to send Indian Citizens > to > >> Pakistan? It is > >> >> a different matter if some are willing to > go on > >> their own > >> >> accord and Pakistan is ready to accept > them.If the > >> same is > >> >> being done to Indians in Australia and > North > >> America why are > >> >> we then troubled. > >> >> In this Globalised world, such a thinking > will > >> definitely > >> >> bring another partition. > >> >> I find the Press to be also responsible > for > >> bringing such a > >> >> division amongst citizens. Newspaper > headings: > >> >> "A Woman and DALIT becomes speaker for > the first > >> >> time" > >> >> "Vahanvati is first MUSLIM Attorney > >> >> General"    Today's Times of India > Front > >> >> Page > >> >> The emphasis is not the MERIT > >> >>  which has brought them to these levels, > it is on > >> Dalit and > >> >> Muslim as if they have become eligible > only now or > >> they have > >> >> been appointed as if the requirement was > for a > >> Dalit and a > >> >> Muslim and no merit was required.That is > one > >> reason I am > >> >> against reservations of any kind. The > >> help/assistance > >> >> needs  only to be given for grooming. > >> >> > >> >> (A.K.MALIK) > >> >> > >> >> > >> >> --- On Mon, 6/8/09, Vedavati Jogi > >> >> wrote: > >> >> > >> >> > From: Vedavati Jogi > >> >> > Subject: Re: [Reader-list] Fw: Re: i > was > >> stunned > >> >> > To: "Venugopalan K M" > >> >> > Cc: reader-list at sarai.net > >> >> > Date: Monday, June 8, 2009, 7:07 PM > >> >> > i don't speak for hindus, > >> >> > i care for my nation! > >> >> > this  socalled  philosophy of > secularism > >> and > >> >> liberalism > >> >> > is dividing the nation and disarming > hindus > >> >> > and i can't see my country being > partitioned > >> again > >> >> . > >> >> > > >> >> > once balasaheb thakare had said, if > pakistan > >> wants > >> >> kashmir > >> >> > (because kashmir is a muslim > majority state) > >> then they > >> >> will > >> >> > have to accept 20 crore muslim > refugees from > >> india > >> >> too. > >> >> > > >> >> > i support this statement. > >> >> > > >> >> > vedavati > >> >> > --- On Sun, 7/6/09, Venugopalan K M > > >> >> > wrote: > >> >> > > >> >> > > >> >> > From: Venugopalan K M > >> >> > Subject: Re: [Reader-list] Fw: Re: i > was > >> stunned > >> >> > To: "sarai-list" > >> >> > Date: Sunday, 7 June, 2009, 3:38 PM > >> >> > > >> >> > > >> >> > Ignorance may be bliss; arrogance > might be > >> bliss as > >> >> well, > >> >> > at least until > >> >> > someone gets held up for rash > assumptions on > >> others.. > >> >> > However, certain manifestations of > ignorance > >> plus > >> >> arrogance > >> >> > are better to be > >> >> > left as they are; I believe that > will be > >> healthy for > >> >> people > >> >> > on both sides of > >> >> > the divide.. > >> >> > Feel no temptation to > >> >>  dispute the contents here; > >> >> > but who are you to speak for the > entire > >> Hindus in > >> >> India,any > >> >> > way? > >> >> > > >> >> > Peace and love, > >> >> > Venu. > >> >> > > >> >> > On Sun, Jun 7, 2009 at 11:12 AM, > Vedavati > >> Jogi wrote: > >> >> > > >> >> > > > >> >> > > > >> >> > > > >> >> > > > >> >> > > > >> >> > > > >> >> > > > >> >> > > > >> >> > > > >> >> > > > >> >> > > good -that israel govt did not > listen to > >> you and > >> >> > returned socalled occupied > >> >> > > territories to palestinians. i > never > >> knew that > >> >> there > >> >> > are pseudo seculars in > >> >> > > israel too (like india) > >> >> > > > >> >> > > you feel govt. of india should > give > >> autonomy to > >> >> > kashmir, are you aware that > >> >> > > kashmiri hindus have been > thrown out of > >> kashmir? > >> >> > > do you find muslims so > >> >>  trustworthy that in autonomous, > >> >> > muslims dominated > >> >> > > state hindus can remain safe? > >> >> > > > >> >> > > whole pakistan is a muslim > occupied > >> india, are > >> >> you > >> >> > aware of that? > >> >> > > > >> >> > >  vedavati > >> >> > > > >> >> > > --- On Sun, 7/6/09, Alex Stein > > >> >> > wrote: > >> >> > > > >> >> > > > >> >> > > From: Alex Stein > >> >> > > Subject: Re: i was stunned > >> >> > > To: "Vedavati Jogi" > >> >> > > Date: Sunday, 7 June, 2009, > 2:58 AM > >> >> > > >> >>  > > >> >> > > > >> >> > > > >> >> > > > >> >> > > > >> >> > > > >> >> > > > >> >> > > 1. I think we should return > the > >> Occupied > >> >> Territories > >> >> > (West Bank, Gaza, East > >> >> > > Jerusalem) to the Palestinian > people. > >> >> > > > >> >> > > 2. I never said I speak for > Kashmir. > >> >> > > > >> >> > > 3. I think the valley should > be > >> autonomous > >> >> (nobody > >> >> > should be removed from > >> >> > > their homes). > >> >> > > > >> >> > > 4. That is for you and Pakistan > to > >> decide over > >> >> the > >> >> > course - hopefully one > >> >> > > day - of peace negotiations. > >> >> > > > >> >> > > A > >> >> > > > >> >> > > > >> >> > > falsedichotomies.com > >> >> > > > >> >> > > "The most radical and the only > secure > >> form > >> >> of > >> >> > possession is destruction, > >> >> > > for only what we have destroyed > is > >> safely and > >> >> forever > >> >> > ours." Hannah Arendt > >> >> > > > >> >> > > > >> >> > > > >> >> > > --- On Sat, 6/6/09, Vedavati > Jogi > >> >> > wrote: > >> >> > > > >> >> > > > >> >> > > From: Vedavati Jogi > >> >> > > Subject: Re: i was stunned > >> >> > > To: "Alex Stein" > >> >> > > Date: Saturday, 6 June, 2009, > 7:38 PM > >> >> > > > >> >> > > > >> >> > > > >> >> > > > >> >> > > > >> >> > > > >> >> > > > >> >> > > hello alex, > >> >> > > 1) will you give part of your > country to > >> any > >> >> other > >> >> > nation? > >> >> > > 2) who has given you right to > speak for > >> kashmir? > >> >> > > 3) if kashmir is given to > muslims what > >> about > >> >>  those > >> >> > hindus who have been > >> >> > > living there since last > thousand years? > >> >> > > 4) will you dare to tell > pakistan to > >> give our > >> >> land > >> >> > back? > >> >> > > vedavati > >> >> > > > >> >> > > --- On Sun, 7/6/09, Alex Stein > > >> >> > wrote: > >> >> > > > >> >> > > > >> >> > > From: Alex Stein > >> >> > > Subject: Re: i was stunned > >> >> > > To: "Vedavati Jogi" > >> >> > > Date: Sunday, 7 June, 2009, > 2:27 AM > >> >> > > > >> >> > > > >> >> > > > >> >> > > > >> >> > > > >> >> > > >> >>  > > >> >> > > > >> >> > > Hi Vedavti, > >> >> > > Thanks for your email. > >> >> > > We are not standing in > opposition to > >> Hindus. I > >> >> deeply > >> >> > love India, its > >> >> > > culture and its people. I > believe, > >> though, that > >> >> the > >> >> > Kashmir people have a > >> >> > > right to self-determination, > just like > >> anyone > >> >> else, > >> >> > and I believe that it is > >> >> > > in India's interest to grant it > to them, > >> at > >> >> least when > >> >> > the time is right. > >> >> > > Best wishes, > >> >> > > Alex Stein > >> >> > > > >> >> > > PS - you may be interested in > my blog of > >> my > >> >> travels in > >> >> > India last summer - > >> >> > > wanderingsatlan.blogspot.com > >> >> > > > >> >> > > > >> >> > > falsedichotomies.com > >> >> > > > >> >> > > "The most radical and the only > secure > >> form > >> >> of > >> >> > possession is destruction, > >> >> > > for only what we have destroyed > is > >> safely and > >> >> forever > >> >> > ours." Hannah Arendt > >> >> > > > >> >> > > > >> >> > > >> >>  > > >> >> > > --- On Fri, 5/6/09, Vedavati > Jogi > >> >> > wrote: > >> >> > > > >> >> > > > >> >> > > From: Vedavati Jogi > >> >> > > Subject: i was stunned > >> >> > > To: alex.stein at talk21.com > >> >> > > Date: Friday, 5 June, 2009, > 7:10 AM > >> >> > > > >> >> > > > >> >> > > > >> >> > > > >> >> > > > >> >> > > > >> >> > > > >> >> > > hello sir, > >> >> > > > >> >> > > i went thru. your article > about > >> >> 'jeuish-kashmiri > >> >> > dialogue group > >> >> > > honestly i was stunned. > >> >> > > i believe you have > >> >>  been told absoluetly wrong > >> >> > history. > >> >> > > > >> >> > >  do you know how much these > kashmiri > >> hindus > >> >> have > >> >> > suffered at the hands of > >> >> > > muslims in kashmir? > >> >> > > > >> >> > > hindusthan is the only country > which > >> gave shelter > >> >> to > >> >> > people of your > >> >> > > religion whole heartedly that > was > >> because > >> >> hindusthan > >> >> > is a hindu dominated > >> >> > > country. > >> >> > > i really wonder how can you try > to > >> befriend > >> >> muslims, > >> >> > basically how can you > >> >> > > trust them? have you people not > suffered > >> at the > >> >> hands > >> >> > of muslims? > >> >> > > have you not heard about > 'muslim > >> >> brotherhood'? > >> >> > > rightnow, you may think that > muslims in > >> kashmir > >> >> were > >> >> > friendly with you > >> >> > > hence they are nice. but are > you sure > >> that when > >> >> you > >> >> > fight with other muslim > >> >> > > countries, these same kashmiri > friends > >> of yours > >> >> will > >> >> > support you against the > >> >> > > latter? > >> >> > > >> >>  > > >> >> > > i sincerely feel, hindus, and > not > >> muslims > >> >> can be > >> >> > your natural allies. > >> >> > > > >> >> > > vedavati > >> >> > > india > >> >> > > > >> >> > > > >> >> > > Own a website.Get an unlimited > >> package.Pay next > >> >> to > >> >> > nothing.* Click here!. > >> >> > > > >> >> > > > >> >> > > > >> >> > > Explore and discover exciting > holidays > >> and > >> >> getaways > >> >> > with Yahoo! India > >> >> > > Travel Click here! > >> >> > > > >> >> > > > >> >> > > > >> >> > > Explore and discover exciting > holidays > >> and > >> >> getaways > >> >> > with Yahoo! India > >> >> > > Travel Click here! > >> >> > > > >> >> > > > >> >> > >      Explore and discover > exciting > >> >> holidays and > >> >> > getaways with Yahoo! India > >> >> > > Travel http://in.travel.yahoo.com/ > >> >> > > > >> _________________________________________ > >> >> > > reader-list: an open discussion > list on > >> media and > >> >>  the > >> >> > city. > >> >> > > Critiques & Collaborations > >> >> > > To subscribe: send an email to > reader-list-request at sarai.net > >> >> > with > >> >> > > subscribe in the subject > header. > >> >> > > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > >> >> > > List archive: > >> >> > > >> >> > > >> >> > > >> >> > > >> >> > -- > >> >> > http://venukm.blogspot.com/ > >> >> > > _________________________________________ > >> >> > reader-list: an open discussion list > on media > >> and the > >> >> > city. > >> >> > Critiques & Collaborations > >> >> > To > >> >>  subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net > >> >> > with subscribe in the subject > header. > >> >> > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > >> >> > >> >> > List archive: > >> >> > > >> >> > > >> >> >       Cricket on your mind? Visit > the > >> >> > ultimate cricket website. Enter http://beta.cricket.yahoo.com > >> >> > > _________________________________________ > >> >> > reader-list: an open discussion list > on media > >> and the > >> >> > city. > >> >> > Critiques & Collaborations > >> >> > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net > >> >> > with subscribe in the subject > header. > >> >> > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > >> >> > >> >> > List archive: > >> >> > >> >> > >> >> > >> >> > >> >> > >> >> > >> >> > >> >>        Cricket on your mind? Visit > the > >> >> ultimate cricket website. > >> >> Enter now! > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > _________________________________________ > >> > reader-list: an open discussion list on media > and the > >> city. > >> > Critiques & Collaborations > >> > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net > >> with subscribe in the subject header. > >> > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > >> > List archive: > >> > > > > > > > > > From 2tahamehmood at googlemail.com Wed Jun 10 21:56:53 2009 From: 2tahamehmood at googlemail.com (Taha Mehmood) Date: Wed, 10 Jun 2009 17:26:53 +0100 Subject: [Reader-list] What the election results say about us Message-ID: <65be9bf40906100926h4d65c640na8f725a89b3bc5cf@mail.gmail.com> http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/Opinion/Columnists/Santosh-Desai/What-the-election-results-say-about-us/articleshow/4601221.cms What the election results say about us 31 May 2009, 2236 hrs IST, Santosh Desai As I argued last week in this column, making sense of the intent behind the election results is a tricky exercise. For elections in India are the only occasion when we understand the full import of what it means to be a country with over a billion people, for here everyone above 18 gets to participate. In almost no other instance when we draw generalized conclusions are we compressing so much diversity into singularity. In this election, over 400 million people exercised their franchise; in effect we are trying to find something common across such a staggering number of data points. Attempts to find simple unifying explanations are thus fraught with danger; perhaps a more useful way of looking at a complex phenomenon like elections in India is to identify some broad themes which emerge from the outcome without necessarily explaining exactly why we saw the outcome we did. Even these are open to challenge in some cases and nuance in most. In some senses, what we are seeing is a ripening of identity politics into a more complex, fractured and mature phenomenon. There are signs that while identity politics continues to flourish, there seems to be an evolution in how it comes into play. The success of regional players who have carved out constituencies based on identity affiliations and have so far practised a patronage-based system and direct rewards has led to the gradual increase in the number of such players. Regionalization has bred more regionalization, and this fracturing of the electoral base has cut into the vote share of the historically stronger regional parties. We have seen this factor at play in Maharashtra, Andhra Pradesh & Tamil Nadu, where the Shiv Sena, TDP and AIADMK have respectively lost seats on this account. The fragmentation of the vote base also means that the national parties seem to look more attractive, in relative terms. As vote share of regional parties gets distributed among a larger number of claimants, national parties stand to gain even if their vote share remains static. The other emerging dimension of the evolution of identity politics is the recognition of the role played by governance. The delivery of some governance creates a demand for more and leads to an acknowledgement of the need for development to be broad-based and inclusive rather than focused on specific communities and groups. Sops to identity clusters do not necessarily create widespread development and it appears that there might be some recognition of this. Nitish Kumar’s remarkable success points to the limits of Lalu Yadav’s stated belief that development does not win elections. However, this is by no means a negation of the power of identity; Mayawati may have lost seats but her vote share has increased. Writing her brand of politics off would be an act of wilful short-sightedness. It would appear that continuity, more than stability, might have been the more important consideration in these elections. This is linked to the fact that all of India has begun to see some signs, however small, of progress. In the absence of a clear alternative, continuing with the existing regime becomes a default option. This is clearly by no means a defining theme but does contribute to the overall trend. Given this, parties need to communicate the appearance of an ability to govern, something the Congress might have done better this time thanks to the slant of their campaign and the collective personae of their leaders. There is no reason to believe that national parties have regained favour with the voters, but it does seem that the Congress has been more successful in regaining its Centrist space to a certain extent this time around. This was probably due to the combined effect of being seen as relatively stronger as against the regional parties for reasons outlined above as well as its attempts to deliver on its promise of inclusive growth. The focus on rural India in its last five years created an aura of intention even if effect was not fully delivered. Eventually, election campaigns get decoded as residues of stories; most of us, especially the uncommitted voters, don’t remember precise details or choose on the basis of specific issues as much as on a general sense of appropriateness. The Congress story seemed to have its heart in the right place, with the combination of actions, people, sounds it emitted with the structural forces on the ground multiplying the impact of this slant towards the party. The return of any Centrist force is a significant development; it remains to be seen if this is indeed a trend or merely a local aberration. But it does seem as if the growing fragmentation of the polity and the attendant issues of the lack of a national perspective might not be quite the inexorable forces they seemed. That might well be the best news we have heard from these elections. From machleetank at gmail.com Thu Jun 11 01:48:43 2009 From: machleetank at gmail.com (Jasmeen Patheja) Date: Thu, 11 Jun 2009 01:48:43 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] things to do at home over a hot summer afternoon : In-Reply-To: <277f58b70906101308r28efdcc8o104e6c5391648126@mail.gmail.com> References: <277f58b70906101308r28efdcc8o104e6c5391648126@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: Hello, please add to the list below? You could email it to us at blurtblanknoise at gmail.com looking forward to hearing from you. Thanks, Jasmeen (for Blank Noise) "mongan iruna nayinte thalayil thenga veenathu pole" (Malayalam) *sent by Aathira *is like a dog who was waiting for a coconut to fall on its head . * * "jithe gur uthey makhi" (punjabi) *sent by Indri* If there's sugar/ jaggery, there will be flies too. How was it implied in your language? "She 'asked for it'?" could be proverbs, statement, sayings from everyday conversations http://blog.blanknoise.org/2009/05/things-to-do-at-home.html From pawan.durani at gmail.com Thu Jun 11 09:17:33 2009 From: pawan.durani at gmail.com (Pawan Durani) Date: Thu, 11 Jun 2009 09:17:33 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Massacres - Contd. Message-ID: <6b79f1a70906102047p1d08690bic05a7bb26433519b@mail.gmail.com> August 16-September 15, 2000 ________________________________ Terrorists massacre Amarnath yatris KS Correspondent reports The Holy Cave of Lord Amarnath, the cave shrine of Mata Vaishno Devi, historic temple of Sharada (now in PoK) and Martand temple are four places, which have sub-continental importance. The pilgrimages to these places foster strong sense of cultural unity among the regional Hindu communities of the Indian sub-continent. The refusal of the sectarian rulers of Pakistan to allow Hindu Jathas to the Sharada temple in Neelam valley has in no way declined its importance, particularly for the 50 lakh strong Sarsawat Brahmin community of India, of which Kashmiri Hindus form an integral part. During the last ten years of militancy raging in Kashmir, the number of pilgrims visiting cave shrine of Mata Vaishno Devi has gone up seven fold. In the case of Amarnath, every year the number of yatris goes on increasing. In early fifties not more than six thousand people visited the holy cave of Lord Amarnath. This year despite disruption, nearly one lakh and eighty thousand people from the different corners of India braved the tough terrain and terrorist threats to accomplish the pilgrimage.Today, in view of the frequent `bans' on the yatra by theKashmiri separatist outfits, the nation looked to success of this yatra as an indicator of national resolve. For the mismanagement of the yatra this year, neither the State government nor the Central government can escape the blame. Symbolic assertions of the nation-state are crucial to the security of the nation. Safe conduct of the yatra cannot be delinked from this. The yatra also provides good economic revenue to the people of the Kashmir valley. Despite warning signals, mismanagement and complacency were seen all through the yatra. The J&K government's own Tourist departmentwas claiming, at the beginning of the yatra, that the figure could go past 2-5 lakh mark. Why it did not make commensurate arrangements? Its job does not end with high-profile ads in national dailies.Unlike previous years the security job of the yatra was not given to Army but to J&K Police. Reports even claim that the State government had turned down Union Home Minister's suggestion that army be deployed on entire route of yatra. This despite the warning that terrorists planned to attack yatra. Even as early as May 25, the `Pioneer' had carried a detailed review of the securitythreat to the yatra. It had reported that there was heavy concentration of foreign mercenaries and Pakistani regulars on the outflanks of the 48-km long mountainous track of yatra. The daily wrote, "due to the concentration of the militants in this area, the threat has increased manifold.. The security agencies anticipate a number of encounters with the militant groups". The government had even radio intercepts speaking about possible attacks on soft targets. Yatra was on top of their agenda. On different occasions earlier as well, militants had made determined moves to disrupt it. There was every apprehension that in view of Pak bid to sabotage the `ceasefire', yatra was obviously a softtarget. Inspite of this, Army this year was not deployed in sufficient strength, nor the security beefed up. Only two days earlier on July 30, a Tata Sumo vehicle carrying tourists to Gulmarg was attacked by a 13 years old boy hired by militants. Why did it not still alert the security forces or the State government. Attack in Jammu: On the morning of August 1, an alert constable Krishan Lal averted what could have been a major tragedy overtaking the yatris in Jammu. As per reports, three militants with affiliation to pan-Islamic Lashkar-e-Toiba came to attack yatris at the registration counter, housed inside the premises of Govt Hari Singh High School near Maheshi Gate. There were varying versions of the incident. One version said the three militants had come to the school from nearby Christian Colony at about 12-05 PM. When they were outside the school's boundary wall, they put on monkey caps to concealidentity. On being spotted by one of the pilgrims, who raised alarm, the militants opened fire and began moving towards the school premises. Boundary wall served as good protective cover for the pilgrims.Before the militants could enter the school premises, constable Krishan Lal shot one of them dead. A few other policemen and jawans of CRPF also retaliated but could not nab the other two militants. However they managed to put yatris inside the classrooms in safety. Meanwhile one of the militants, as per a report, hurled a grenade on the security personnel, but it missed the target. The same report said that the militants were imploring the police and CRPF jawans to hand over the pilgrims to them. The slain militant, suspected by the police to be a Kashmiri, carried an identity card of Abid Hussain Malik, reading in Aligarh Muslim University and resident of Jaunpur, Uttar Pradesh. An AK-47 rifle was recovered from him. Massacre at Pahalagam: What happened six hours later at Pahalgam drew international attention to the sadist violence, indulged in by the"mujahids" against the innocent people. Reporting in contemporary Kashmir has got messed up in multiple versions of the same incident. That makes objectivity an obvious casualty.Mr Ahmed Ali Fayaz (Daily Excelsior) wrote, "Deputy Commissioner GA Pir insists they were foreigners. A policeman on duty claims that one was from a Pahalgam village and another from Anantnag. But, one thing is common among the eye-witnesses that the two bearded killers of 22 Amarnath pilgrims, 6 local civilians and 2 policemen, danced triumphantly while choosing death for themselves too". "Thereheight was moderate and complexion wheatish as is the case with the Kashmiris", a report quoted a police officer saying this. Fake identity cards and the new recruitment drive by LeT and Jaish-e-Mohammedi outfits involving local youth in the age group of 13-16 years, for dare-devil acts is a new feature of the proxy-war in Kashmir. The same report in `Excelsior' says, "It was literally amacabre dance. Two youngsters-sporting beard, wearing olive green jackets and brandishing AK-47 rifles-emerged out of the jungle at around 1845 hours on Tuesday evening and began the massacre of pilgrims from a wooden culvert, called Manzim Bridge. The stream beneath, often seen in Bollywood movies of Rajesh Khanna, Asha Parekh period, was in spate. They spreayed bullets in all directions, stormed into a Meerut Langar, and finally took position on a metalled road on the left bank of nullah Aru. After leaving a total of 30 dead and over 60 others wounded, the assailants tossed seven grenades on the beautiful hutment of Hari Singh, the commanding officer of CRPF 61 Bn." Another report said that as the militants reached the bridge, they opened indiscriminate fire, hitting a woman in the leg. Then they ran towards the CRPF picket, firing indiscriminately at yatris and shopkeepers. In this torrential rain of bullets that lasted for about 25 minutes, thirteen yatris and shopkeepers were killed on the spot. The next destination of militants was the adjoining Meerut Bhandar, where 900 yatris from Meerut were camping. Two grenades were tossed at a tent, killing one yatri and injuring four others. As militants approached the camp, a BSF constable opened fire and scared them away. Militants were running and firing towards the camp on both sides of the road. A man, hit by a bullet on the bridge fell down into the Lidder stream flowing below. The grenades tossed at the CRPF bullet damaged a car by standing there. Meanwhile CO was contacted at his office but he failed to reach the spot due to heavy gunfire at his home. Sentry SC Choudhary engaged the militants and in the fierce encounter that followed, he felled down one, who had hid behind a car and a massive rock. The other militant, 100 yards away on the Aru road was gunned by a BSF soldier. "Calm prevailed but only after the duo danced whilecrying that they had accomplished their mission". Prem Lata, a teacher from Ludhiana who saw the militants, wearing police uniform and firing indiscriminately alleged that the militants were selectively killing pilgrims only. She took cover in her bus, the wind screen of which was damaged as the killers emptied their volley of bullets. Baba Naresh of Gujrat, another eyewitness claimed militants killed a baba after entering his tent.Ravinder Kumar of Haryana said near Meerut langar, where militants brandished their concealed weapons, a barber and his customers were the first targets. "A broken mirror, a blood drenched cap and the splattered blood on the spot gave the idea of their act". Firingon the moving pilgrims, they moved towards the small bridge. After crossing it, they entered the area where the langar and tents were set up. There a heavy exchange of fire took place between the militants and security forces, leading to the killing of some pilgrims and local labourers in the cross-firing. However, the militants managed to escape from the area. Poonam Goyal from Meerut received three bullets in her leg and abdomen. Both her daughter and husband were injured, while her missing son was presumably dead. Arvind Kumar Verma had multiple fractures in his left leg. Arun Kumar of Delhi, who ran a langar said the militants held AK-47 rifles and one of them even changed his magazine while killing yatris. Kuldeep Kumar, driver of a bus damaged in the firing was hit by a bullet in the leg. He said that one of the militants firing from under the bus finally came out and was killed by a CRPF jawan. Around four thousand yatris were camping in Pahalgam at the time of attack.Ram Sahgal, a pilgrim from Delhi said the militants, as they engaged in indiscriminate firing roamed freely in a radius of about half a km.Bharat Sharma, a travel agency owner of Agra, told reporters that "the militants began firing from a hill top and also from underneath a bus". One of the Sikh sewadars was hit by a burst of automatic fire standing besides him collapsed in a pool of blood. Eyewitnesses said that prompt response by paramilitary personnel killed two militants, while another escaped in a Maruti van. He was also wearing police uniform. Another version claimed two militants were held captive by the Army. As the bullets rained all around, people scrambled under the parked vehicles or took shelter under the trees along the Lidder bank. CRPF personnel were seen advising yatris to remain calm. Many others managed to escape in the waiting vehicles. A large number of vehicles, including cars and buses, also showed marks of the indiscriminate firing. While many glass panes stood broken, tyres were punctured due to the impact of bullets. The bodies of the pilgrims and other civilians were removed by security forces men and pilgrims during the night itself while the "unclaimed bodies" of the militants were kept at the police station. The survivors with nightmarish experiences recalled the good job done by Srinagar doctors and Army, BSF and CRPF. They were bitter against JKP and said the state police looked the other way when militants struck. The Hindu, quoted a pilgrim as saying, "after the massacre, their personnel prevented us from helping the injured and taking them to hospital. Instead of helping the victims, they kept saying, "Ifyou come for the yatra, you'll meet this fate". A senior officerof CRPF claimed that militants had hurled five grenades, used 19 magazines and fired 570 rounds of AK fire and 57 live bullets were recovered from the slain terrorists. Meanwhile, a three-member committee headed by Corps Commander of the Srinagar-based 15 corps, JR Mukherjee has been appointed to probe the Pahalgam killings. The other members of the committee include Messers C Phunsung, Home Secretary and GA Peer, Deputy Commissioner, Anantnag. Source: Kashmir Sentinel From pawan.durani at gmail.com Thu Jun 11 09:19:52 2009 From: pawan.durani at gmail.com (Pawan Durani) Date: Thu, 11 Jun 2009 09:19:52 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] LADAKH WAR - SHRIDHAR KAUL DULLU Message-ID: <6b79f1a70906102049h5e35ac43obf61415e29befc6d@mail.gmail.com> ROLE OF SHRIDHAR KAUL DULLU IN  LADAKH WAR LATE Shridhari Kaul Dullu lived in Rainawari, a suburb of Srinagar. He was truly a renaissance figure in the contemporary history of Kashmir. Masterji, as he was popularly called was trained to teach. He admired Buddhism and became a Buddhist by conviction. Masterji knew that Ladakh was the ancient seat of learning and culture so far as Buddhisim was concerned and also Ladakhis were simple people. When he was transferred to this desolate region as ADI schools, he did not grumble. He felt happy. Masterji loved Ladakhis, their culture and simplicity. He created educational awareness among them and till his last days many Ladakhi students used to stay with him at Rainawari and seek his help in admissions. Ladakh’s educational and political renewal is linked with his name. Masterji was gifted with unique insights into cultural and political processes of J&K. His magnum opus “Ladakh Through The Ages” amply reflects this. He was a good organiser for mobilising public and building public opinion on crucial issues. In May 1948, during Ladakh campaign, he prepared a report on the defence of Ladakh. Braving the inhospitable terrain of Leh-Manali track, Masterji presented this report in person to Pt Jawahar Lal Nehru, Prime Minister. So impressed was Nehru with this assessment that he prevailed upon Masterji to get in touch with Gen. Cariappa, then C in C and Sardar Baldev Singh, the Defence Minister of India. In 1947-48 Masterji found himself in a strange role. He had an appeal cutting across communities. This aspect and his great organising abilities made him the natural choice as organiser of National Guards for the defence of Ladakh. National Guards proved a decisive factor in turning the tide of war in favour of India. The fall of Gilgit had caused serious concern and fear among Buddhists of Ladakh. Actuely aware of the fate of non-Muslims in Skardu, Buddhists decided to raise their own defences for Leh till Indian Army could arrive. Masterji and the President of Young Buddhist Association, Mr K Poan Chewang Rigzin played a crucial role in this. They prevailed upon the emergency administration at Srinagar to take immediate steps for organising local people in a militia, irrespective of religious affiliation as National Guards. Fortunately DP Dhar was in-charge of Defence of Frontier. He had keen understanding of the frontier security and wasted no time in getting immediate State government clearance. Wazir was directed to take necessary steps to implement this scheme and the Garrison commander at Leh was ordered to train the recruits. These orders were sabotaged at the local level by the Tehsildar, Abdul Khaliq. A native of Skardu, Khaliq was alleged to be highly sectarian and a Muslim League backer. He tried to give it a sectarian colour. Subsequently the State government appointed Masterji as organiser of National Guards. Masterji in this mission toured extensively all over Ladakh impressing upon the people to enrol themselves as National Guards. He asked the people to realise the perilous situation and undergo necessary arms training to inflict heavy punishment on the enemy. Initially people were slow to react. Masterji utilised festival occasions to enroll them. His efforts soon bore fruit. In few weeks he raised about 500 volunteers. In the first week, fifty volunteers underwent arms training. Masterji’s persuasive skills saw even Muslims joining National Guards  in the Ladakh countryside. While the campaigning of recruitment was in full swing, the legendary Ladakh campaign hero, Lt Col Prithvi Chand and his able assistant Jamadar Bhim Chand reached Leh. They had come to train the National Guards recruits. Their timely arrival infused new hope into the hearts of defenders of Leh. The persistent pressures of the Buddhist leadership and the personal efforts of Masterji in Delhi saw more military reinforcements reaching Leh. 2/8 Gorkhas, numbering 150 came via Leh-Manali route. It was Masterji who as organiser of National Guards arranged transport, food and looked after other logistics of this detachment. It was Masterji’s decision to shift the headquarters of the administration to Martselang, a village 25 miles south of Leh. This was to ensure its security. In those uncertain days Masterji’s presence in Leh had became synonymous with high morale of the people. Whenever he stepped out of Leh suddenly, serious misgivings would arise among the people. A community hall in Leh stands in his memory. Source: Kashmir Sentinel From rakesh.rnbdj at gmail.com Thu Jun 11 09:58:19 2009 From: rakesh.rnbdj at gmail.com (Rakesh Iyer) Date: Thu, 11 Jun 2009 09:58:19 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] The Pinarayi Vijayan-Lavalin case Message-ID: Dear Venugopalan jee (and all) You had stated in one of your mails that the action taken by the Kerala Governor, to prosecute Vijayan, against the advice of the council of ministers, is wrong for the Constitution doesn't allow one to do so. I am pleased to inform you that in such cases, the Governor can actually go against the advice of the Council of Ministers and allow prosecution, as per a judgement by the Supreme Court in 2004. For more, read this article put below. Regards Rakesh Article: (From Indian Express) Link: http://www.indianexpress.com/news/in-lavalin-kerala-governor-has-sc-ruling-on-his-side/474586/0 In Lavalin, Kerala Governor has SC ruling on his side *New Delhi:* The CPM leadership questions the legality of Kerala Governor R S Gavai’s decision to overrule the state Government and give CBI the sanction to prosecute party state secretary Pinarayi Vijayan in an alleged corruption case. Gavai will find support — in a Supreme Court ruling five years ago. “It makes it clear that a Governor can accord sanction for prosecution of a minister or any public servant even if the Council of Ministers is opposed to it,” says senior Supreme Court lawyer and constitution expert P P Rao. The judgment, delivered by a Constitution bench of Justices N Santosh Hegde, S N Variava, B P Singh, H K Sema and S B Sinha on November 5, 2004 in the case Madhya Pradesh Special Police Establishment versus State, upheld the decision of the then Madhya Pradesh Governor Bhai Mahavir to sanction the prosecution of two former state ministers even though the council of ministers — then headed by Digvijay Singh — had decided not to accord sanction claiming that no prima facie case was made out against them. In doing so, the Supreme Court set aside a judgment of the Madhya Pradesh High Court which held the Governor’s action untenable. The apex court ruling was categorical: “If, on these facts and circumstances, the Governor cannot act in his own discretion there would be a complete breakdown of the rule of law in as much as it would then be open for Governments to refuse sanction in spite of overwhelming material showing that a prima-facie case is made out. If, in cases where prima-facie case is clearly made out, sanction to prosecute high functionaries is refused or withheld, democracy itself will be at stake. It would then lead to a situation where people in power may break the law with impunity safe in the knowledge that they will not be prosecuted as the requisite sanction will not be granted.” The Bench also ruled that “on those rare occasions where on facts the bias becomes apparent and/or the decision of Council of Ministers is shown to be irrational and based on non-consideration of relevant factor, the Governor would be right, on the facts of that case, to act in his own discretion and grant sanction”. In the same matter, a single Judge of the Madhya Pradesh HC held that granting sanction for prosecuting the Ministers was not a function which could be exercised by the Governor “in his discretion” within the meaning of these words as used in Article 163 of the Constitution of India. It was held that the Governor could not act contrary to the “aid and advice” of the Council of Ministers. But while the Division Bench went with the view of the Single Judge, the SC took a dim view of this reasoning. - Manish Chhibber From kshmendra2005 at yahoo.com Thu Jun 11 15:02:25 2009 From: kshmendra2005 at yahoo.com (Kshmendra Kaul) Date: Thu, 11 Jun 2009 02:32:25 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Reader-list] Anil Chawla's response to Kulkarni's "Hindu Divided Family" Message-ID: <589528.87983.qm@web57202.mail.re3.yahoo.com> Tuesday, June 9, 2009   Dear friend,   Namaskar,   Sudheendra Kulkarni, who currently works as an aide to Mr. LK Advani, is an old friend. In 1975, both of us joined IIT Bombay for B.Tech. A couple of days back Sudheendra wrote an article "Hindu Divided Family", which you may read at http://www.tehelka.com/story_main42.asp?filename=Ne130609hindu_divided.asp   Sudheendra's article has drawn considerable attention in media. I am replying to Sudheendra in an open letter discussing the role of Mr. Advani in BJP and also the defeat of BJP in recent elections.   The enclosed open letter to Sudheendra  is about 2000 words. Please read it and send me your comments.   With Best Wishes and Regards,   Anil Chawla  - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -   Dear Sudheendra,   I have just read your "deeply introspective essay" on tehelka.com about BJP's defeat in recent elections. The article is described as introspective, but I failed to find anything that could be called introspection by any stretch of imagination. True, you say that "I too carry my share of responsibility", but that is more courteous than introspective.   All through the essay, you look upon BJP as a patient lying on an operating table and your role as that of an outsider trying to see all that has gone wrong. The patient is being blamed for all that has gone wrong, without in any way blaming either the virus or the team of doctors who have brought the patient to the present critical state.   Please pardon me for being direct and on the face. I guess as a former classmate I can take this freedom. I campaigned for Janata Party in 1977 elections. Ever since then I have been in and around the party (JP/BJP) working at various levels. Sure enough, I have not been an aide to Mr. LK Advani (LK) like you have been. Both of us began dabbling in public life together at IIT Bombay. I have spent more than three decades in close proximity with BJP and RSS without ever being offered a post. I am not alone. There are thousands like me who have served in their own humble way. What has always surprised me is that someone like you who was a committed fulltime communist for almost two decades, suddenly did an ideological somersault and landed up straight in the top rungs of BJP. When you are in mood for some introspection, please do think about this. Probably, the roots to the present malaise in BJP can be traced to your own personal journey.   When a communist suddenly becomes an ideologue for a party like BJP, there is bound to be skepticism and even some ridicule. It becomes imperative on the neo-convert to prove that there has been a genuine transformation of the soul and not just a change of coat. Even if the neo-convert does manage to prove his credentials, there is no way that he should ever be allowed to rule over the heads of people who have devoted their life to the cause. In your case, (a) you have never proved that you have really changed and (b) you actually landed up on top of the ranks in a manner that is most inexplicable. I say that you have not been able to prove your credentials because I have read some of your articles and I can say with a fair level of confidence that you remain at heart a communist who is trying to put on the camouflage of a Hindu.   Dear Sudheendra, I have nothing against you personally. Your appointment as National Executive member of BJP, at the time of your joining BJP, and later as Prime Minister's key aide had pleased me enormously. One always likes to see old friends in positions of power. The problem is that your case is not an isolated one, but a representative one. There are many in Delhi and Mumbai who have been able to gain access to LK's coterie by hook or by crook and it is these who now rule over BJP.   When you analyze BJP and RSS with a cold surgeon like approach, you ignore the role that LK's family and coterie has come to play in the party. Elections of 2009 were not fought by BJP against Congress, but were reduced by LK and his gang to a war by LK against one and all. The party has been systematically hijacked and decimated over the past decade and a half by LK's coterie. You just need to look at the campaign material prepared by the party for the recent elections. There is only one face -- LK's. Even Atal ji was not considered worthy of being put on the hoardings and posters. Congress gained mileage from photographs of Gandhi and Nehru decades after their deaths. Communists continue to revere Lenin and Stalin till today. Contrast this with the way LK and his war team dumped Atal ji most discourteously even though he is alive and continues to be revered by millions in the country.   You say that the BJP leadership is in disarray. If it is true, the only person who is responsible for the mess in the party is LK and no one else. He has ruled over the party with an iron hand for more than two decades. In fact, the words "Majboot Neta" (Strong Leader) that were used to describe LK during the recent election, apply only in respect of the way LK behaves in the matter of crushing his critics and opponents within the party. He is ruthless in demolishing anyone who as much as raises an eyebrow against him. He has no patience for anyone who even dreams of being his equal within the party. Can you please name for me two people who are LK's equals within BJP, in LK's vision? LK's desire to stand as a tallest leader made him choose only pygmies for all critical positions in the party. The only way that one could rise up in BJP with LK at helm was to act as a subservient spineless dwarf.   The problem with dwarfs is that while they are very good for boosting one's ego, they have limited use when one faces a war-like situation. In the recent elections, LK decided to fight it all alone. LK and his family and coterie thought that their rag-tag army of laptop professionals could substitute for the well-oiled and tested machinery of BJP, ABVP and RSS. The irony is that the blame for the defeat is now being put on the doors of the organizations that were treated most shabbily when LK and his team were dreaming of victory. LK and his team are now complaining that no one from BJP top leadership stood up to defend him when he was under attack. The fact is that among BJP leadership, the ones who command any stature were always ignored, attacked and pushed to the sideline by LK and his gang. So when LK came under attack he looked around for support and found none. Of course, there were many rats who were raising their feeble voices in his support. Unfortunately, the voices of rats do not count. This is something that LK should have thought before he appointed rats in all the key positions.   You talk about the party's social base. Did LK do anything in this regard during the past five years? The answer is an emphatic NO. When LK did his last ‘yatra' before 2004 elections, a photograph of his starting point was circulated. It showed LK standing with his daughter and wife. There were no BJP leaders on the dais. LK defended the presence of his family by saying that he drew strength from them. This is the root of the problem. In the past decade or so, LK stopped drawing strength from the party or Sangh parivar, and started leaning on his personal family ignoring the larger family to which small humble persons like me belong and from where we draw our strength. LK saw the party and Sangh pariwar as a tool to achieve his personal ambition at all costs. In the past decade, LK's focus was on building his personal image, his family strengths, his mafia-like grip on the party. The thought of getting or building leaders who command or could potentially command respect in various social groups seems to have been far removed from LK's mind.   I attended the function at Bhopal of LK's unveiling of his autobiography in Hindi. What an unabashed projection by a person who has no achievements worth mentioning even in one paragraph! Future historians will mention LK as a classic example of a person who had illusions of grandeur. They will write that he was a manipulator who was ruthless to independent thought within his party and rose by methods that ruined the party. Having said that they would probably add - he saw films and wrote two eminently forgettable autobiographies. What else is there to mention about LK's lifetime achievements? Are there any articles / books written by him on social-political issues? At least I am not aware of any. He is a self-centered person who cannot see beyond himself and his interests. If he puts pen on paper it is to describe his own self because that is all that he can ever see. If he talks about Hinduism / Hindutwa or any political ideology or national issues, it sounds hollow because he has never applied his mind to anything except his own interests, his family, his career, his ambitions, his dreams etc.   You might respond by saying that all politicians today are like that. You would probably be right on that. But then they know that they are run-of-the-mill politicians with no illusions of being grand strong leaders. If LK had realized his own limitations, he would not have tried to fashion 2009 elections as an exercise to elect him as the prime minister. The worst thing that happened in 2004 and 2009 elections is that the BJP, under the influence of LK, did not use the elections as an exercise to take party's ideology forward. In days of Jansangh, when it used to be absolutely clear that there was no possibility of winning, the party would still fight. In those days, it used to be clear that fighting an election was an opportunity to propagate our ideology and thoughts to a bigger audience. In the 2009 election, the campaign was focused only on the persona of LK ignoring even the party's manifesto.   As an old hand of the broad ideological historical process that I call as Hindu nationalistic movement, I have no serious regrets about BJP losing 2004 or 2009 elections. But I do regret that the party which was making an attempt in its initial years to define a new vision for Ekatm Manavwad (translated by me as Monistic Humanism) lost way. I regret that instead of focusing on issues and ideas the party focused on an individual. I regret that the party for whom thousands shed blood and lives became a tool in the hands of some who want to live a seven-star lifestyle. I regret that personal ambitions and aspirations of one man became the focus of many organizations that are known for the sacrifices of their leaders.   Dear Sudheendra, I agree with you wholeheartedly when you say, "The BJP can indeed bounce back. But it can do so only if it first renews and empowers itself comprehensively -- in its ideology, its geographical-social spread, its own political strength, its mass activity, its alliance-building, its cadre-based organizational network, and its leadership". The difference is in approach. While you would like to probably do it with LK and his cronies at the helm, I shall like Sangh pariwar to put the dark days of LK and his cronies behind.   Sangh leadership must act to decisively purge BJP of LK and his individual-centered style of working. Competence and not loyalty to this or that individual must be the criterion for all appointments. Ideology must take centre-stage once again and those who can help with defining and clarifying ideological issues should be in key positions and not sycophants or moneybags.   I am making this letter public because I think that the issues that are discussed here are very important and need a wider debate. Of course, I know that this will put me at the risk of harsh retaliatory action by LK and his coterie. I guess that I have to take this risk in wider national interest. I hope I can count on you as an old friend if the action turns nasty.   With Best Wishes and Regards,   Anil Chawla   www.hindustanstudies.com www.samarthbharat.com www.indialegalhelp.com   http://groups.google.com/group/soc.culture.indian/msg/eb5d518cb3a23927   From sunil at cis-india.org Wed Jun 10 18:43:29 2009 From: sunil at cis-india.org (Sunil Abraham) Date: Wed, 10 Jun 2009 18:43:29 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] CIS Event Announcements--June 2009 Message-ID: <4A2FB179.5060400.121@cis-india.org> The Centre for Internet and Society, Bangalore, announces three public events this fortnight. Entry to all these events is free and registration is not required. For more details on the events and speakers, please see the links or the abstracts below. * Dialogue Systems in Education and Learning -- Friday, 12 June, 2009; 5.30-6.30 pm http://www.cis-india.org/events/dialogue-systems-in-education-and-learning * Art and Augmented Reality -- Wednesday, 17 June, 2009; 6.00-7.30 pm http://www.cis-india.org/events/art-and-augmented-reality * Using Social Media for Mobilisation -- Thursday, 18 June, 2009; 6.00-7.30 pm http://www.cis-india.org/events/using-social-media-for-mobilisation ----- * Dialogue Systems in Education and Learning -- Friday, 12 June, 2009; 5.30-6.30 pm A talk on dialogue interfaces for intelligent tutoring systems (ITS) One-to-one tutoring has been shown to increase learning gain in students because instruction can be adapted to the student's expertise. Intelligent tutoring systems (ITS) are computer programs that adaptively provide students with exercise problems to solve and a detailed feedback once they resolve the problems. However the interface between the student and the system is restricted to GUI and therefore detailed discussion on what went wrong in problem solving cannot be discussed. Dialogue interfaces to tutoring systems resolves this drawback and enables the student to have a conversation on the mistakes he/she committed. In tutorial dialogue systems, the system interacts with the students in natural language either spoken or typed. The system and the student engage in a conversation after the student presents a solution to the problem. In case of an incorrect solution, the system helps the student to solve the problem by engaging the student in a remediation dialogue by asking simpler questions and giving clues. Such systems have been shown to be more effective than its GUI counterparts. Can such systems be used to improve the learning gain amongst students in India? * Speaker Srinivasan Janarthanam is a third year Ph.D student at the University of Edinburgh, UK. He works in Spoken Dialogue Systems with focus on making user adaptive systems. His Ph.D is supported by UK India Education Research Initiative. Previously, he worked as a research associate in Amrita Vishwa Vidyapeetam, Coimbatore on English-Tamil Machine Translation. He did his M.Sc in Intelligent Systems from the University of Sussex, UK and his B.E from Bharathiyar University, Coimbatore. His other interests are Natural Language Processing (NLP) for Indian languages, application of NLP and Artificial Intelligence for education. * Venue Centre for Internet and Society, No. D2, 3rd Floor, Sheriff Chambers, 14, Cunningham Road, Bangalore - 560052 (Telephone: 080 4092 6283) ----- * Art and Augmented Reality -- Wednesday, 17 June, 2009; 6.00-7.30 pm Talk by Jose David Cuartas Correa The Centre for Internet and Society and the Free Software Users' Group, Bangalore, invite you to a talk by Jose David Cuartas Correa on his project on Augmented Reality (with Sologico Libre Foundation, with the support of Caldas University, CEMA (Center of Experimental Media Arts) and Srishti School of Art, Design and Technology). In this presentation, Jose David will discuss the concept of Augmented Reality (fusion of the real world with the virtual objects and data), and demonstrate how it can be used as an alternative model of manipulation, integration and interaction for media and information. This new technology gives us new ways to create and think; Graphical Interfaces and options for the construction of new worlds, environments and alternative spaces. Augmented Reality is thus a useful tool that can be used by artists, designers and expert users. The presentation will also analyse the metaphors used in the development of previous, present and next-generation Graphical User Interfaces (GUI) and look some examples of interaction interfaces developed by different research groups around the world. Finally, Jose David will demonstrate the ATOMIC Authoring Tool, software initially developed to create Augmented Reality applications and mind maps, created under the GPL licence. * Speaker Jose David Cuartas Correa is a student of visual design at the Caldas University in Manizales, Colombia, South America. He is at present an exchange student in the Advanced Diploma in Experimental Media Arts at CEMA – Srishti School of Art, Design and Technology, Bangalore, India. He also serves as visiting faculty at Srishti School of Art, Design and Technology, teaching the course “Interaction and Interface Design in the Web” at the foundation level. Jose David is the founder of the Junior Research Group in Free Software for Design, Caldas University, and current president of the SoLógiCo Libre ONG, which promotes the use and development of the free software, free culture and emergent technologies for art, design and entertainment. * Venue Centre for Internet and Society, No. D2, 3rd Floor, Sheriff Chambers, 14, Cunningham Road, Bangalore - 560052 (Telephone: 080 4092 6283) ----- * Using Social Media for Mobilisation -- Thursday, 18 June, 2009; 6.00-7.30 pm Panel discussion with Dina Mehta and Peter Griffin For some time now, blogs, facebook and other forms of social media have been used extensively for rallying people around an issue or a cause. However, what makes some of these campaigns more successful than others? Does the workability of social media for mobilisation depend on the manner in which information is designed and/or disseminated? This panel brings together two well-known names from the world of social media, Dina Mehta and Peter Griffin, to explore "meme engineering" and understand what makes some forms of use of social media more effective than others. * Speakers Dina Mehta is a founder and Managing Director of Mosoci India. She has spent twenty years specializing in qualitative research and ethnography. She is at the forefront of technology trend research in India and works with a global portfolio of companies; including learning journeys, and immersions for innovation teams. She brings her unique perspective to understanding the emerging social aspects of new technology and the impact of new media on youth and mobility. Her work has led her to study the impact of technology in rural markets, follow trend-setting youth in urban settings, dig deep into motivations and possible triggers across a wide range of demographic and psychographic groups, explore and identify underlying value propositions and key drivers/barriers in several categories. Peter Griffin is a well-known blogger and has been involved with a number of collaborative projects, including the South-East Asia Earthquake and Tsunami blog (also known as TsunamiHelp), MumbaiHelp, Think Bombay, and the WorldWideHelp group and its associated projects. All of these project have been concerned with bringing together the web and free tools on one hand, and concerned web natives and public goodwill on the other, to assist in disaster relief. Peter is also the co-founder, joint editor and co-moderator of the writing community, Caferati. He is currently the Special Features Editor with Forbes Magazine, India. * Venue Centre for Internet and Society, No. D2, 3rd Floor, Sheriff Chambers, 14, Cunningham Road, Bangalore - 560052 (Telephone: 080 4092 6283) ----- From shuddha at gmail.com Wed Jun 10 17:43:54 2009 From: shuddha at gmail.com (Shuddhabrata Sengupta) Date: Wed, 10 Jun 2009 17:43:54 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] His name is Ezra Nawi Message-ID: <01FB4464-43DF-469F-B689-F08B0B6B0D5A@gmail.com> Dear All, This is to inform you about an interesting person who needs all the help he can get. His name is Ezra Naw (I have adapted this message from material available online connected to a petition being circulated to help secure his liberty). Ezra Nawi is an Israeli human rights activist who faces jail time for trying to stop a military bulldozer from destroying the homes of Palestinian Bedouins in the South Hebron region. To watch a dramatic video of the incident and his arrest, and to write a letter demanding his freedom, go to http://www.freeEzra.org . Nawi's friends ---- have launched a campaign to generate tens of thousands of letters to Israeli embassies all over the world before he is due to be sentenced in July. Ezra Nawi is a Jewish Israeli of Iraqi descent who speaks fluent Arabic. He is a gay man in his fifties and a plumber by trade. He is loved by those with little power, to whom he dedicates his life, and hated by the settlers who occupy land in the West Bank with the tacit support of powerful factions in Israel, the Israeli military and police. Please consider taking a minute to send a letter to the Israeli Consulate on behalf of Ezra Nawi. Sign the letter and learn more about Ezra Nawi at http://freeEzra.org . Shuddhabrata Sengupta shuddha at gmail.com From machleetank at gmail.com Thu Jun 11 01:48:43 2009 From: machleetank at gmail.com (Jasmeen Patheja) Date: Thu, 11 Jun 2009 01:48:43 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] [Announcements] things to do at home over a hot summer afternoon : In-Reply-To: <277f58b70906101308r28efdcc8o104e6c5391648126@mail.gmail.com> References: <277f58b70906101308r28efdcc8o104e6c5391648126@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: Hello, please add to the list below? You could email it to us at blurtblanknoise at gmail.com looking forward to hearing from you. Thanks, Jasmeen (for Blank Noise) "mongan iruna nayinte thalayil thenga veenathu pole" (Malayalam) *sent by Aathira *is like a dog who was waiting for a coconut to fall on its head . * * "jithe gur uthey makhi" (punjabi) *sent by Indri* If there's sugar/ jaggery, there will be flies too. How was it implied in your language? "She 'asked for it'?" could be proverbs, statement, sayings from everyday conversations http://blog.blanknoise.org/2009/05/things-to-do-at-home.html -------------- next part -------------- _______________________________________________ announcements mailing list announcements at sarai.net https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/announcements From kshmendra2005 at yahoo.com Thu Jun 11 18:15:58 2009 From: kshmendra2005 at yahoo.com (kshmendra2005 at yahoo.com) Date: Thu, 11 Jun 2009 05:45:58 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Reader-list] =?utf-8?q?=22Colonel_Imam=22_-_The_Taliban_will_?= =?utf-8?b?4oCYbmV2ZXIgYmUgZGVmZWF0ZWTigJk=?= Message-ID: <450262.17783.qm@web57205.mail.re3.yahoo.com> EXTRACTS:   - (Mullah)  Omar passed through his camps in 1985. “He was a simple man, a small commander leading a maximum of 40 people and didn’t have much weaponry,” Imam recalled.   - Like many Pakistanis he refuses to believe the September 11 attacks were carried out by Osama Bin Laden. “An operation like that needs ground support,” he said. “I have no doubt it was carried out by the Americans to give a bad name to the Taliban government as an excuse to topple it.”     >From The Sunday Times June 7, 2009 "The Taliban will ‘never be defeated’" (‘Colonel Imam’, the Pakistani agent who trained Mullah Omar and the warlords to fight the Soviets, says the US must negotiate with its enemies" Christina Lamb in Rawalpindi   THE Pakistani intelligence agent who trained Mullah Omar, the Taliban leader, to fight has warned that Nato forces will never overpower their enemies in Afghanistan and should talk to them rather than sacrifice more lives.   “You can never win the war in Afghanistan,” said so-called “Colonel Imam”, who ran a training programme for the Afghan resistance to the Soviet Union’s occupation from 1979 to 1989, then helped to form the Taliban.   “I have worked with these people since the 1970s and I tell you they will never be defeated. Anyone who has come here has got stuck. The more you kill, the more they will expand.” A tall, bearded figure, whose real name is Amir Sultan Tarar, he trained at Fort Bragg, the US army base where America’s special forces are stationed.   During the late 1970s and 1980s he controlled CIA-funded training camps for 95,000 Afghans and often accompanied his students on missions.   After the Soviet defeat and the collapse of communism, he was invited to the White House by the first President George Bush and was given a piece of the Berlin Wall with a brass plaque inscribed: “To the one who dealt the first blow.”   Today western intelligence agencies believe Imam is among a group of renegade officers from Pakistan’s Inter-Services Intelligence agency (ISI) who continued to help the Taliban after Pakistan turned against them following the attacks of September 11, 2001.   United Nations officials and Afghanistan’s intelligence service have reported sightings of him in the Afghan provinces of Helmand and Uruzgan. It is a charge he shrugs off, claiming that at 65 he has not worked for almost eight years.   “I wish I could do it but they don’t need me any more,” he says. “My students are far ahead of me now. They are giving a lesson to the world. I am very proud of them.”   Although he expresses great admiration for the British military (“far more gallant than the Americans”), Imam says that in sending troops to Helmand, Britain had forgotten its previous wars in Afghanistan.   In particular, he chides, they should have remembered the battle of Maiwand in 1880, in which 2,500 British troops took on 25,000 Afghans and suffered a devastating defeat.   “When people in Helmand heard the British were coming back, the cry went up all over: ‘Remember Maiwand? Our old enemy has come to the same area where they were once defeated to take revenge’. Then everyone, Taliban and nonTaliban, joined together. They told me on the phone, ‘Don’t worry, we’ll make sure the Brits don’t have an easy time’.”   His comments come as the number of British soldiers killed by enemy action in Afghanistan has risen to 137, one more than the number who have died in Iraq.   According to Imam, Helmand is particularly difficult because of the character of the people. “They couldn’t care less about loss of property or loss of life,” he said.   It is unlikely that anybody alive today knows the Afghans as well as Imam. All the key figures were trained in his camps, from the late Ahmad Shah Massoud, the Lion of Panj-shir, to warlords such as Gul-buddin Hekmatyar, his “naughtiest” student. “It was a matter of pride for me that my students later became big commanders,” he said.   “The Afghan is a very cunning soldier,” he added. “He picks things up very quickly and never forgets. As a Pakistani unit commander I’d be training my men for six months and maybe they would remember 70%. But in Afghanistan teenagers came, had only three days’ weapon training and they remembered 100%. In just 15 days they mastered the Stinger [the shoulder-mounted surface-to-air missile].”   Omar passed through his camps in 1985. “He was a simple man, a small commander leading a maximum of 40 people and didn’t have much weaponry,” Imam recalled.   One of Imam’s biggest backers was Congressman Charlie Wilson, the Texan who was instrumental in securing funding for Operation Cyclone, the CIA programme to supply arms with which the mujaheddin would fight the Soviet troops.   “He used to dance with happiness at seeing our training camps,” said Imam.   Within 10 years the Russians had been forced out. “Total expenditure just $5 billion and not a single American life,” said Imam. “Now the Americans are spending hundreds of billions and losing hundreds of lives.”   The last time he saw Wilson was after the 1988 Geneva accords on the Soviet withdrawal. Imam told him: “You’re abandoning the Afghans. They need financial support for rehabilitation.” Wilson replied: “Dollars don’t grow on trees.” “Do Afghan youth grow on trees?” asked Imam. “Over 1.5m Afghans have died.”   Furious at the American betrayal and devastated by the resulting infighting in the Afghan resistance, he became close to Omar. “I love him,” he said. “He brought peace to Afghanistan.”   Imam was Pakistan’s consul-general in Herat when the Taliban captured the city in 1995 from Ismail Khan, the mujaheddin commander, who claims the ISI agent oversaw the whole Taliban operation. From there he guided the Taliban as they took over the cities of Mazar-e-Sharif and Jalalabad and eventually captured Kabul.   Like many Pakistanis he refuses to believe the September 11 attacks were carried out by Osama Bin Laden. “An operation like that needs ground support,” he said. “I have no doubt it was carried out by the Americans to give a bad name to the Taliban government as an excuse to topple it.”   When General Pervez Musharraf, then president of Pakistan, agreed to American pressure to cut ties to the Taliban, the colonel was outraged.   Recalled to Islamabad, he told Musharraf: “You cannot defeat these people, they are well trained, they have a lot of ammunition and the more you kill, the more supporters will come.”   Today he adds: “It was the blunder of his life and because of it we are all doomed.”   Imam left Afghanistan when the US bombing of the country ceased in 2001 and claims he has not returned. “I can go any time on my old routes, even the Americans cannot stop me, but there is no need,” he said. “I have friends roaming all over there. At times they give me a call, they like to hear my voice.   “I’m quite happy with the current situation because the Americans are trapped there. The Taliban will not win but in the end the enemy will tire, like the Russians.”   He has offered to find the Americans a way out: “We can give them a face-saving solution but they must change their strategy.”   First, he says, they must spend billions on reconstruction. Then they must open talks with Omar rather than the so-called moderate Taliban with whom negotiations are under way.   “When are you people going to understand there are no number two Taliban?” he asked.   “Those who break away from mainstream Taliban have no place in society. You may make deals in Dubai or Saudi Arabia, but when they come back to Afghanistan and people know they have compromised with the Americans, they are finished.   “In Afghanistan the only man who can make a decision and people listen is Mullah Omar. He’s a very reasonable man. He would listen and work for the interests of his country.”   He insisted the Taliban leader was not in Pakistan: “He’s in the hills of Uruzgan, his home province. If there’s a requirement he will listen to me, but why should I get him involved in a risky situation?”   Imam said he had watched with horror as fighting spread into Pakistan and had been shocked to see his fellow officers having to fight against their own countrymen in the Swat district.   “These are not Taliban, they are tribals,” he said. “Mullah Omar told them time and time again not to fight against Pakistan. They are fighting against the government of Pakistan because it is supporting the enemies of Islam. Everybody knows our government is supporting the US drone attacks in our own area.   “This is an American plan to make us a subjugated country and have an excuse to get our nukes. Everybody, your prime minister, President Obama, all go, ‘Oh, the nuclear weapons are unsafe’. I say you’re making them unsafe. When you were not in the region there was no problem.”   The call for prayer brings our interview to an end. Before he goes he has one last warning: “I tell you when my nation rises up it is not Afghanistan, not Iraq. There will be tremendous killing.”    http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/world/asia/article6445981.ece   From indersalim at gmail.com Thu Jun 11 20:31:14 2009 From: indersalim at gmail.com (Inder Salim) Date: Thu, 11 Jun 2009 20:31:14 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Account almost in verses of a trip to Lebanon In-Reply-To: <684778.63365.qm@web31706.mail.mud.yahoo.com> References: <684778.63365.qm@web31706.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <47e122a70906110801w16b43c92o7022e7ff6d84f7fa@mail.gmail.com> To travel is to discover that everyone is wrong about other countries. Aldous Huxley Dear Francesca Lebeonon or other such sound which people remember and pass on for ages, perhaps attain a volume for a traveler to touch to see, and to add... with your words on your trip to Lebenon, i saw few pebbles arranged, neatly, like people of a different place, in groups of four or five, whispering their own accounts, while showing us their backs. we were listening to a guide, as if in the guise of a friend, or a lover, a sister, a driver... i have never never been to Lebenon, but But i see you, you whispered back, metaphysically to them, and and they smiled back, you saw it in a flash. and there was nothing more to add, beyond that exchange. Afterall the traveller comes to see, more than to touch... The ressidents , or the occupants or the inheritors of the history of a place often let us see, and smile on the travellers incpacity to touch: the cutures of others In your words i see a spontaenous urge to touch the texture of the stone called Labenon. Even the inhabitants who often brush their backs to over come a sweet itch cant tell the form and the detail of the texture of the stone which cant be measured, . The stone has water inside and people are moving in a out of it like wind does through the leaves of a tree. But for the traveller, like Francesca, there must be an urge to become one amongst the rest while moving in a car, or in a bus which is for poor. The time shrinks stops for such a traveller, and lets her experience that real bit for a moment. sometimes you find a door to enter, to transform into some inward pimple ofthe memory frame, and sometimes that oozes out like the verses ...or verse like, on seeing and touching thing, i was once amazed to experience the difference between the seeing a touching of skin of a snake. Seeing-wise it looked like a fish, but touch-wise it was bird. the function of eyes is limited, as limited as a touching without seeing. at one level there is no relationship between seeing and touching of a thing, as the dynamics of the both functions radically differnently in differnet time-space movements. i see some illusions vital to life and to the knowing of the other, you are poet who travles not to write a poem but to touch the seeing of other, people, country,,, with love is On Tue, Jun 9, 2009 at 2:00 PM, francesca recchia wrote: >> > > > > BEIRUT > > Appearance and forgetfulness > > Bullet holes on the walls recall the war > > Living by the day forgets the past > > The signs of religion design identity > > The signs of religion hide identity > > Veiled bodies and underdressed bodies sit one next to the other > > Buses are for poor people > > Old houses: wounded and abandoned > > New towers: glass steel concrete > > Many buildings look like old ladies with too much make up > > Time to arrive, time to leave: excess gives little space for thinking and understanding > > > > TYRE > > Looking for the Phoenicians > > When you sleep in a lighthouse, the sound of the waves rocks you into sleep and wakes you up > > Palestine is not far away > > The fisherman Toni has big, tanned hands and cooks fish by the sea > > Carrots in water lemon and salt keep company to beer and sunset > > Sun burnt skin gives a sense of freedom > > United Nation troops are in Tyre to keep the peace > > United Nation troops are in Tyre to keep an eye on Israel > > > > SIDON > > There are few traces of the Phoenicians left > > A hill of seashells is all we have to be reminded of the myth of the purple dye > > Crusaders built castles into the sea > > Lebanon is the land of Adonis, who was also called Tammuz or Eshmoun > > Eshmoun is Melqart’s brother. It seems that they both liked to eat children > > Archeological > sites are the background of clandestine romantic dates: hands touch, > lips get closer and closer, a hijiab is lifted by the wind > > > > ON THE WAY TO BEITTEDINE > > A > couple as ancient as time bake manakheesh on the side of the road: he > has blue eyes; her hands and back are bent by the efforts > > > > ZAHLE > > A traffic-less crossroad > > An old woman in a young body runs a hotel where time stopped too long ago > > In the vineyards of Ksara in the 1800s a Jesuit chases a fox that steals his chickens and discovers ancient underground tunnels > > > > AANJAR > > Umayyad dynasty ruled for one hundred years and then the Abbasids defeated them > > > > BAALBEC > > Grey lizards look like small dinosaurs > > Hezbollah and Jean Cocteau > > Gigantic stones and yellow and green flags > > > francesca recchia > kiccovich at yahoo.com > it +39 338 166 3648 > iq +964 (0) 750 7085 681 > http://www.veleno.tv/bollettini/ > > > > > > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with subscribe in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: -- http://indersalim.livejournal.com From kmvenuannur at gmail.com Thu Jun 11 21:57:43 2009 From: kmvenuannur at gmail.com (Venugopalan K M) Date: Thu, 11 Jun 2009 21:57:43 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] The Pinarayi Vijayan-Lavalin case In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <1f9180970906110927p117b3e78h351779d2751528a6@mail.gmail.com> Dear Rakesh, Noted and thank you for sending the link; I guess the issue involved is than just those of federalism as some experts maintained earlier. Even the CM is reported to have spoken in support of the action of the Governor, which again,makes my earlier comment problematic. Thanks. Venu. On Thu, Jun 11, 2009 at 9:58 AM, Rakesh Iyer wrote: > Dear Venugopalan jee (and all) > > You had stated in one of your mails that the action taken by the Kerala > Governor, to prosecute Vijayan, against the advice of the council of > ministers, is wrong for the Constitution doesn't allow one to do so. I am > pleased to inform you that in such cases, the Governor can actually go > against the advice of the Council of Ministers and allow prosecution, as per > a judgement by the Supreme Court in 2004. For more, read this article put > below. > > Regards > > Rakesh > > Article: (From Indian Express) > > Link: > http://www.indianexpress.com/news/in-lavalin-kerala-governor-has-sc-ruling-on-his-side/474586/0 > > In Lavalin, Kerala Governor has SC ruling on his side > > *New Delhi:* The CPM leadership questions the legality of Kerala Governor R > S Gavai’s decision to overrule the state Government and give CBI the > sanction to prosecute party state secretary Pinarayi Vijayan in an alleged > corruption case. Gavai will find support — in a Supreme Court ruling five > years ago. > > > “It makes it clear that a Governor can accord sanction for prosecution of a > minister or any public servant even if the Council of Ministers is opposed > to it,” says senior Supreme Court lawyer and constitution expert P P Rao. > > > The judgment, delivered by a Constitution bench of Justices N Santosh Hegde, > S N Variava, B P Singh, H K Sema and S B Sinha on November 5, 2004 in the > case Madhya Pradesh Special Police Establishment versus State, upheld the > decision of the then Madhya Pradesh Governor Bhai Mahavir to sanction the > prosecution of two former state ministers even though the council of > ministers — then headed by Digvijay Singh — had decided not to accord > sanction claiming that no prima facie case was made out against them. > > > In doing so, the Supreme Court set aside a judgment of the Madhya Pradesh > High Court which held the Governor’s action untenable. > > > The apex court ruling was categorical: “If, on these facts and > circumstances, the Governor cannot act in his own discretion there would be > a complete breakdown of the rule of law in as much as it would then be open > for Governments to refuse sanction in spite of overwhelming material showing > that a prima-facie case is made out. If, in cases where prima-facie case is > clearly made out, sanction to prosecute high functionaries is refused or > withheld, democracy itself will be at stake. It would then lead to a > situation where people in power may break the law with impunity safe in the > knowledge that they will not be prosecuted as the requisite sanction will > not be granted.” > > > The Bench also ruled that “on those rare occasions where on facts the bias > becomes apparent and/or the decision of Council of Ministers is shown to be > irrational and based on non-consideration of relevant factor, the Governor > would be right, on the facts of that case, to act in his own discretion and > grant sanction”. > > > In the same matter, a single Judge of the Madhya Pradesh HC held that > granting sanction for prosecuting the Ministers was not a function which > could be exercised by the Governor “in his discretion” within the meaning of > these words as used in Article 163 of the Constitution of India. It was held > that the Governor could not act contrary to the “aid and advice” of the > Council of Ministers. But while the Division Bench went with the view of the > Single Judge, the SC took a dim view of this reasoning. > >  - Manish Chhibber > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with subscribe in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> -- http://venukm.blogspot.com/ From aprajitasarcar at gmail.com Fri Jun 12 12:56:11 2009 From: aprajitasarcar at gmail.com (Aprajita Sarcar) Date: Fri, 12 Jun 2009 00:26:11 -0700 Subject: [Reader-list] edited man In-Reply-To: <5af37bb0906080422w28e1c178tc4889a279ef244b3@mail.gmail.com> References: <5af37bb0906080422w28e1c178tc4889a279ef244b3@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: Why is he startled? Which part of his usual routine fell out of place? Or is he suddenly waking up to the fact that its a huge anomaly, that he is sitting there watching what is to be watched, reading what is to be read, that the usuality of his routine is unsual? Is he sitting under the weight of this anomaly? If so, he needs to rest. Watch Keanu Reeves flying across the matrix. I gift him a VLC Media player. Best Aprajita On 6/8/09, yasir ~يا سر wrote: > > is there a link to the image of the figure. or do we just figure that. > > best > > y > > > > On Thu, May 28, 2009 at 4:16 PM, Jeebesh wrote: > > > > We found the seated figure of a man in somebody's storage space. We > > found him sitting and with what sees to us to be like a startled look > > on his face. We have been wondering what would it mean to work towards > > him acquire a life, a philosophy, tastes, passions, a repertoire of > > sentiments, a list of favourite books, songs, movies and secret > > desires, ever since we found him > > > > We invite you to look carefully at his image, and respond, with a > > brief text, anything from an epigram to a paragraph or a page, or a > > series drawings, or an essay, or a fiction, or an idea for an art > > work, or a story, or a poem, or a song, or a quote, or an anecdote, or > > a travel dairy notation, or a bibliography, or a joke, or another > > image, or a reference to other works, or all of the above or something > > else. > > > > You could even make a list of provisions that you think he might need, > > books and texts you might want him to read, music that you might want > > him to listen to, or things that you might want him to take along as > > he makes his way in the world. You can also choose to respond in a > > completely tangential and oblique way, if you so wish, bypassing our > > sense of who he is, and communicating directly with the figure and > > what he represents to you. > > > > We would like to gather your responses into a book that we want to > > make as an accompaniment to the work that we will produce in the > > autumn this year. > > > > Please send us your response by 31st July. > > > > Warm greetings > > > > Raqs Media Collective > > June, 2009 > > _________________________________________ > > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > > Critiques & Collaborations > > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > subscribe in the subject header. > > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > subscribe in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> From rajen786uppinangady at gmail.com Fri Jun 12 13:03:05 2009 From: rajen786uppinangady at gmail.com (Rajendra Bhat Uppinangadi) Date: Fri, 12 Jun 2009 13:03:05 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Anil Chawla's response to Kulkarni's "Hindu Divided Family" In-Reply-To: <589528.87983.qm@web57202.mail.re3.yahoo.com> References: <589528.87983.qm@web57202.mail.re3.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <7271ec560906120033m26106765k141b8a7045b4cc6a@mail.gmail.com> Dear Kshemendra, the reply posted by you from Mr. Anil Chawla is worthwhile read material to understand different aspects of the election results and the position of BJP.While success has many claimants, failure is a bastard, and when BJP had only two seats in parliament, the rise to higher levels was only thanks to mobilisation of the societal votes by the Rathyathra, by LK, who is a good organiser, but a bad leader. Thanks to sober presence of Atalji, his acceptablity to all was the saving grace. Jaswanth Singh and Rajnathsingh are two misfits who are adorning the high places with ulterior gains as the intent, as we see them with their utterances.Jaswanth who has no vote base, Rajnath who can not have any say in UP are the misfits as national leaders. Advani as leader has failed miserably, as he has no control over the issues such as the handling of second rung leadership. Even as Dy. PM, his performance as administrator is woefully wanting, as six years is too long a period for a home minister to prove his good intentions, he kept away from all ticlish issues, such as re-settlement of kashmiri refugess in Delhi camps, facilitation of dispute of disputed land row at Ayodhya, as he did not have any initiative he is seen as every one as a bussinessman, sindhi, who is keen on profits but not on capital.! Thu, Jun 11, 2009 at 3:02 PM, Kshmendra Kaul wrote: > Tuesday, June 9, 2009 > > Dear friend, > > Namaskar, > > Sudheendra Kulkarni, who currently works as an aide to Mr. LK Advani, > is an old friend. In 1975, both of us joined IIT Bombay for B.Tech. A > couple of days back Sudheendra wrote an article "Hindu Divided > Family", which you may read at > > http://www.tehelka.com/story_main42.asp?filename=Ne130609hindu_divided.asp > > Sudheendra's article has drawn considerable attention in media. I am > replying to Sudheendra in an open letter discussing the role of Mr. > Advani in BJP and also the defeat of BJP in recent elections. > > The enclosed open letter to Sudheendra is about 2000 words. Please > read it and send me your comments. > > With Best Wishes and Regards, > > Anil Chawla > > - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - > > > Dear Sudheendra, > > I have just read your "deeply introspective essay" on tehelka.com > about BJP's defeat in recent elections. The article is described as > introspective, but I failed to find anything that could be called > introspection by any stretch of imagination. True, you say that "I > too carry my share of responsibility", but that is more courteous > than introspective. > > > All through the essay, you look upon BJP as a patient lying on an > operating table and your role as that of an outsider trying to see > all that has gone wrong. The patient is being blamed for all that has > gone wrong, without in any way blaming either the virus or the team > of doctors who have brought the patient to the present critical > state. > > > Please pardon me for being direct and on the face. I guess as a > former classmate I can take this freedom. I campaigned for Janata > Party in 1977 elections. Ever since then I have been in and around > the party (JP/BJP) working at various levels. Sure enough, I have not > been an aide to Mr. LK Advani (LK) like you have been. Both of us > began dabbling in public life together at IIT Bombay. I have spent > more than three decades in close proximity with BJP and RSS without > ever being offered a post. I am not alone. There are thousands like > me who have served in their own humble way. What has always surprised > me is that someone like you who was a committed fulltime communist > for almost two decades, suddenly did an ideological somersault and > landed up straight in the top rungs of BJP. When you are in mood for > some introspection, please do think about this. Probably, the roots > to the present malaise in BJP can be traced to your own personal > journey. > > > When a communist suddenly becomes an ideologue for a party like BJP, > there is bound to be skepticism and even some ridicule. It becomes > imperative on the neo-convert to prove that there has been a genuine > transformation of the soul and not just a change of coat. Even if the > neo-convert does manage to prove his credentials, there is no way > that he should ever be allowed to rule over the heads of people who > have devoted their life to the cause. In your case, (a) you have > never proved that you have really changed and (b) you actually landed > up on top of the ranks in a manner that is most inexplicable. I say > that you have not been able to prove your credentials because I have > read some of your articles and I can say with a fair level of > confidence that you remain at heart a communist who is trying to put > on the camouflage of a Hindu. > > > Dear Sudheendra, I have nothing against you personally. Your > appointment as National Executive member of BJP, at the time of your > joining BJP, and later as Prime Minister's key aide had pleased me > enormously. One always likes to see old friends in positions of > power. The problem is that your case is not an isolated one, but a > representative one. There are many in Delhi and Mumbai who have been > able to gain access to LK's coterie by hook or by crook and it is > these who now rule over BJP. > > > When you analyze BJP and RSS with a cold surgeon like approach, you > ignore the role that LK's family and coterie has come to play in the > party. Elections of 2009 were not fought by BJP against Congress, but > were reduced by LK and his gang to a war by LK against one and all. > The party has been systematically hijacked and decimated over the > past decade and a half by LK's coterie. You just need to look at the > campaign material prepared by the party for the recent elections. > There is only one face -- LK's. Even Atal ji was not considered worthy > of being put on the hoardings and posters. Congress gained mileage > from photographs of Gandhi and Nehru decades after their deaths. > Communists continue to revere Lenin and Stalin till today. Contrast > this with the way LK and his war team dumped Atal ji most > discourteously even though he is alive and continues to be revered by > millions in the country. > > > You say that the BJP leadership is in disarray. If it is true, the > only person who is responsible for the mess in the party is LK and no > one else. He has ruled over the party with an iron hand for more than > two decades. In fact, the words "Majboot Neta" (Strong Leader) that > were used to describe LK during the recent election, apply only in > respect of the way LK behaves in the matter of crushing his critics > and opponents within the party. He is ruthless in demolishing anyone > who as much as raises an eyebrow against him. He has no patience for > anyone who even dreams of being his equal within the party. Can you > please name for me two people who are LK's equals within BJP, in LK's > vision? LK's desire to stand as a tallest leader made him choose only > pygmies for all critical positions in the party. The only way that > one could rise up in BJP with LK at helm was to act as a subservient > spineless dwarf. > > > The problem with dwarfs is that while they are very good for boosting > one's ego, they have limited use when one faces a war-like situation. > In the recent elections, LK decided to fight it all alone. LK and his > family and coterie thought that their rag-tag army of laptop > professionals could substitute for the well-oiled and tested > machinery of BJP, ABVP and RSS. The irony is that the blame for the > defeat is now being put on the doors of the organizations that were > treated most shabbily when LK and his team were dreaming of victory. > LK and his team are now complaining that no one from BJP top > leadership stood up to defend him when he was under attack. The fact > is that among BJP leadership, the ones who command any stature were > always ignored, attacked and pushed to the sideline by LK and his > gang. So when LK came under attack he looked around for support and > found none. Of course, there were many rats who were raising their > feeble voices in his support. Unfortunately, the voices of rats do > not count. This is something that LK should have thought before he > appointed rats in all the key positions. > > > You talk about the party's social base. Did LK do anything in this > regard during the past five years? The answer is an emphatic NO. When > LK did his last ‘yatra' before 2004 elections, a photograph of his > starting point was circulated. It showed LK standing with his > daughter and wife. There were no BJP leaders on the dais. LK defended > the presence of his family by saying that he drew strength from them. > This is the root of the problem. In the past decade or so, LK stopped > drawing strength from the party or Sangh parivar, and started leaning > on his personal family ignoring the larger family to which small > humble persons like me belong and from where we draw our strength. LK > saw the party and Sangh pariwar as a tool to achieve his personal > ambition at all costs. In the past decade, LK's focus was on building > his personal image, his family strengths, his mafia-like grip on the > party. The thought of getting or building leaders who command or > could potentially command respect in various social groups seems to > have been far removed from LK's mind. > > > I attended the function at Bhopal of LK's unveiling of his > autobiography in Hindi. What an unabashed projection by a person who > has no achievements worth mentioning even in one paragraph! Future > historians will mention LK as a classic example of a person who had > illusions of grandeur. They will write that he was a manipulator who > was ruthless to independent thought within his party and rose by > methods that ruined the party. Having said that they would probably > add - he saw films and wrote two eminently forgettable > autobiographies. What else is there to mention about LK's lifetime > achievements? Are there any articles / books written by him on > social-political issues? At least I am not aware of any. He is a > self-centered person who cannot see beyond himself and his interests. > If he puts pen on paper it is to describe his own self because that > is all that he can ever see. If he talks about Hinduism / Hindutwa or > any political ideology or national issues, it sounds hollow because > he has never applied his mind to anything except his own interests, > his family, his career, his ambitions, his dreams etc. > > > You might respond by saying that all politicians today are like that. > You would probably be right on that. But then they know that they are > run-of-the-mill politicians with no illusions of being grand strong > leaders. If LK had realized his own limitations, he would not have > tried to fashion 2009 elections as an exercise to elect him as the > prime minister. The worst thing that happened in 2004 and 2009 > elections is that the BJP, under the influence of LK, did not use the > elections as an exercise to take party's ideology forward. In days of > Jansangh, when it used to be absolutely clear that there was no > possibility of winning, the party would still fight. In those days, > it used to be clear that fighting an election was an opportunity to > propagate our ideology and thoughts to a bigger audience. In the 2009 > election, the campaign was focused only on the persona of LK ignoring > even the party's manifesto. > > > As an old hand of the broad ideological historical process that I > call as Hindu nationalistic movement, I have no serious regrets about > BJP losing 2004 or 2009 elections. But I do regret that the party > which was making an attempt in its initial years to define a new > vision for Ekatm Manavwad (translated by me as Monistic Humanism) > lost way. I regret that instead of focusing on issues and ideas the > party focused on an individual. I regret that the party for whom > thousands shed blood and lives became a tool in the hands of some who > want to live a seven-star lifestyle. I regret that personal ambitions > and aspirations of one man became the focus of many organizations > that are known for the sacrifices of their leaders. > > > Dear Sudheendra, I agree with you wholeheartedly when you say, "The > BJP can indeed bounce back. But it can do so only if it first renews > and empowers itself comprehensively -- in its ideology, its > geographical-social spread, its own political strength, its mass > activity, its alliance-building, its cadre-based organizational > network, and its leadership". The difference is in approach. While > you would like to probably do it with LK and his cronies at the helm, > I shall like Sangh pariwar to put the dark days of LK and his cronies > behind. > > > Sangh leadership must act to decisively purge BJP of LK and his > individual-centered style of working. Competence and not loyalty to > this or that individual must be the criterion for all appointments. > Ideology must take centre-stage once again and those who can help > with defining and clarifying ideological issues should be in key > positions and not sycophants or moneybags. > > > I am making this letter public because I think that the issues that > are discussed here are very important and need a wider debate. Of > course, I know that this will put me at the risk of harsh retaliatory > action by LK and his coterie. I guess that I have to take this risk > in wider national interest. I hope I can count on you as an old > friend if the action turns nasty. > > > With Best Wishes and Regards, > > > Anil Chawla > > > www.hindustanstudies.com > www.samarthbharat.com > www.indialegalhelp.com > > > http://groups.google.com/group/soc.culture.indian/msg/eb5d518cb3a23927 > > > > > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > subscribe in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: -- Rajen. From rajen786uppinangady at gmail.com Fri Jun 12 13:08:13 2009 From: rajen786uppinangady at gmail.com (Rajendra Bhat Uppinangadi) Date: Fri, 12 Jun 2009 13:08:13 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] The Pinarayi Vijayan-Lavalin case In-Reply-To: <1f9180970906110927p117b3e78h351779d2751528a6@mail.gmail.com> References: <1f9180970906110927p117b3e78h351779d2751528a6@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <7271ec560906120038p4eb25dd1g1034ad3533c0a336@mail.gmail.com> Dear all, one aspect of left leaders of the earlier generation was their impeccable integrity and non-curruptibilty. But, now as we see the advents of Kodiyeri who was involved in sale of power without payment to kerala state, case swept under carpet, earlier, now, Pinarayi who has dipped himself in lot more than just this lavelin issue are shame and blot on the party's clean record, surprisingly supported by Prakash karat.? Regards, On Thu, Jun 11, 2009 at 9:57 PM, Venugopalan K M wrote: > Dear Rakesh, > > Noted and thank you for sending the link; I guess the issue involved > is than just those of federalism as some experts maintained earlier. > Even the CM is reported to have spoken in support of the action of the > Governor, which again,makes my earlier comment problematic. > Thanks. > Venu. > > On Thu, Jun 11, 2009 at 9:58 AM, Rakesh Iyer > wrote: > > Dear Venugopalan jee (and all) > > > > You had stated in one of your mails that the action taken by the Kerala > > Governor, to prosecute Vijayan, against the advice of the council of > > ministers, is wrong for the Constitution doesn't allow one to do so. I am > > pleased to inform you that in such cases, the Governor can actually go > > against the advice of the Council of Ministers and allow prosecution, as > per > > a judgement by the Supreme Court in 2004. For more, read this article put > > below. > > > > Regards > > > > Rakesh > > > > Article: (From Indian Express) > > > > Link: > > > http://www.indianexpress.com/news/in-lavalin-kerala-governor-has-sc-ruling-on-his-side/474586/0 > > > > In Lavalin, Kerala Governor has SC ruling on his side > > > > *New Delhi:* The CPM leadership questions the legality of Kerala Governor > R > > S Gavai’s decision to overrule the state Government and give CBI the > > sanction to prosecute party state secretary Pinarayi Vijayan in an > alleged > > corruption case. Gavai will find support — in a Supreme Court ruling five > > years ago. > > > > > > “It makes it clear that a Governor can accord sanction for prosecution of > a > > minister or any public servant even if the Council of Ministers is > opposed > > to it,” says senior Supreme Court lawyer and constitution expert P P Rao. > > > > > > The judgment, delivered by a Constitution bench of Justices N Santosh > Hegde, > > S N Variava, B P Singh, H K Sema and S B Sinha on November 5, 2004 in the > > case Madhya Pradesh Special Police Establishment versus State, upheld the > > decision of the then Madhya Pradesh Governor Bhai Mahavir to sanction the > > prosecution of two former state ministers even though the council of > > ministers — then headed by Digvijay Singh — had decided not to accord > > sanction claiming that no prima facie case was made out against them. > > > > > > In doing so, the Supreme Court set aside a judgment of the Madhya Pradesh > > High Court which held the Governor’s action untenable. > > > > > > The apex court ruling was categorical: “If, on these facts and > > circumstances, the Governor cannot act in his own discretion there would > be > > a complete breakdown of the rule of law in as much as it would then be > open > > for Governments to refuse sanction in spite of overwhelming material > showing > > that a prima-facie case is made out. If, in cases where prima-facie case > is > > clearly made out, sanction to prosecute high functionaries is refused or > > withheld, democracy itself will be at stake. It would then lead to a > > situation where people in power may break the law with impunity safe in > the > > knowledge that they will not be prosecuted as the requisite sanction will > > not be granted.” > > > > > > The Bench also ruled that “on those rare occasions where on facts the > bias > > becomes apparent and/or the decision of Council of Ministers is shown to > be > > irrational and based on non-consideration of relevant factor, the > Governor > > would be right, on the facts of that case, to act in his own discretion > and > > grant sanction”. > > > > > > In the same matter, a single Judge of the Madhya Pradesh HC held that > > granting sanction for prosecuting the Ministers was not a function which > > could be exercised by the Governor “in his discretion” within the meaning > of > > these words as used in Article 163 of the Constitution of India. It was > held > > that the Governor could not act contrary to the “aid and advice” of the > > Council of Ministers. But while the Division Bench went with the view of > the > > Single Judge, the SC took a dim view of this reasoning. > > > > - Manish Chhibber > > _________________________________________ > > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > > Critiques & Collaborations > > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > subscribe in the subject header. > > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> > > > > -- > http://venukm.blogspot.com/ > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > subscribe in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> > -- Rajen. From sonia.jabbar at gmail.com Fri Jun 12 14:21:14 2009 From: sonia.jabbar at gmail.com (S. Jabbar) Date: Fri, 12 Jun 2009 14:21:14 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Election Forecast In-Reply-To: <101411.44743.qm@web94709.mail.in2.yahoo.com> Message-ID: The people in the NWFP who imposed a tax on non-Muslims in the name of Islam are brigands. They are also known collectively as the Taliban, a feared entity who have wreaked greater havoc on the lives of Muslims in the area. Jaziya is commonly and mistakenly seen as an inherent Islamic practice, a fundamental tenet of Islam, where in fact the Arabs simply continued the practice of levying a poll tax on subject races in their newly conquered territories. The practice of poll tax was instituted by the Sassanid Empire, which ruled a vast swathe of land which included the Caucasus, Iraq, southern Central Asia, Iran and Afghanistan from 205 CE for 400 years, much before the birth of Islam. The Sassanids, incidentally, were Zoroastrian, ancestors of the people we know as Parsis. > From: Vedavati Jogi > Date: Wed, 20 May 2009 10:25:13 +0530 (IST) > To: Rakesh Iyer > Cc: > Subject: Re: [Reader-list] Election Forecast > > after reading secular mails on this readers list i am thoroughly convinced > that very soon india will be a muslim country because muslims are going to > outnumber hindus by 2050 and hindus will have to pay jizia (the way sikhs in > pakistan are paying)   ( unfortunately or fortunately )muslims don't > descriminate between seculars and others for them hindus are hindus and not > brahmins/dalits/marathas/seculars/communals etc. so all of us - you as well > as me will have to pay jizia.   be mentally ( and financially also) > prepared.   vedavati --- On Mon, 18/5/09, Rakesh Iyer > wrote: From: Rakesh Iyer > Subject: Re: [Reader-list] Election Forecast To: > "anupam chakravartty" Cc: "sarai list" > Date: Monday, 18 May, 2009, 5:20 PM Dear > Vedavati Before pointing fingers at others, look at oneself. Considering the > demand of Hindus like you, if BJP were to come to power (either as coalition > or on their own), the sword would be hanging on the head of the minorities as > to when their women would be raped, their children would be left > parent-less and when their lives would be destroyed. It's certainly good that > UPA has come to power, and now we have one less issue to focus upon (which > is minority rights), at least upto a certain extent. When the NDA was in > power, we had to focus on jokers like Praveen Togadia, Ashok Singhal, Acharya > Dharmendra, some more useless sadhus and mahants, and also Modi mania. > Unnecessarily at some point of time or other, there would be some nonsense > shilanyas and some daan or the other. At least under the UPA, such useless > antics are out. While Kandhamal, Karnataka and Mangalore indeed have taken > place, at least a widespread pogrom has not taken place. And as for > Bangladesh and Pakistan, thanks to Hindus like you, I can say comfortably that > if people like you were to come to power (in any party or form), we would > become a Hindu rashtra where our minorities would be living worse than second > class citizens. And you are not a secular anyway, and you are a Hindu. India > is secular not because Hindus are in majority. India is secular because > majority of the people live as a secular society does (irrespective of whether > they believe in secularism). They don't want conflicts for umpteen no. of > reasons. And they can see through the political game of our Hindutva and > fundamentalist Islamic friends. As for Muslim nations which are secular, go > to Turkey, Indonesia and Malaysia. Regards Rakesh PS: I wonder where our > Modi bhai is, now that results are out for the general election. Everybody is > talking about Advani not talking to media. Seems Modi is another version of > Advani. When things are going against him, he is the first one (like Advani) > to hide and run away. And he is supposedly the 'next PM' candidate of BJP in > 2014. Jaisa Guru, waisa chela........jai > ho!! _________________________________________ reader-list: an open discussion > list on media and the city. Critiques & Collaborations To subscribe: send an > email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with subscribe in the subject > header. To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> > Cricket on your mind? Visit the ultimate cricket website. Enter > http://beta.cricket.yahoo.com _________________________________________ reader > -list: an open discussion list on media and the city. Critiques & > Collaborations To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net > with subscribe in the subject header. To unsubscribe: > https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list List archive: > <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> From 2tahamehmood at googlemail.com Fri Jun 12 17:58:02 2009 From: 2tahamehmood at googlemail.com (Taha Mehmood) Date: Fri, 12 Jun 2009 13:28:02 +0100 Subject: [Reader-list] News Items posted on the net on Multipurpose National Identity Cards-126 Message-ID: <65be9bf40906120528i2f92e52egf1094030a96b5420@mail.gmail.com> http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/Editorial/TOP-ARTICLE--Step-Up-To-The-Task/articleshow/4645381.cms TOP ARTICLE | Step Up To The Task 12 Jun 2009, 0000 hrs IST, Prakash Singh The president's address to Parliament unveiled an ambitious agenda for reforms in which internal security has been given high priority, and rightly so. The country has been reassured that the government would follow a policy of ''zero tolerance'' towards terrorism and that ''stern measures'' would be taken to deal with insurgency and left-wing extremism. Unfortunately, there is a sense of complacency that has set in here because there has been no major incident since 26/11. We must remember that the reason there has been no major terror strike since the Mumbai attacks has been more due to the international pressure on Pakistan and the action taken by that country against terrorists operating within its boundaries rather than any strengthening of the security apparatus by our government. As soon as Pakistan is able to get the economic assistance it desperately needs, it would revert to its old game of sponsoring terrorism. The manner in which Hafiz Saeed, chief of the banned Jamaat-ud-Dawa (JuD), and founder of the outlawed Lashkar-a-Taiba (LeT), has been let off the hook is evidence, if needed at all, of Pakistan's ambivalence. It is absolutely essential, therefore, that the government improves our security architecture comprehensively. Else, all our efforts in other areas would come to a naught. Economic development can take place only in a secure environment. It may be recalled that the Rand Corporation, a US think tank, had, in the aftermath of the 26/11 incidents in Mumbai, clearly warned that ''India will continue to face a serious jihadi terrorist threat from Pakistan-based terrorist groups for the foreseeable future''. In fact, it even said ''the threat will continue to grow''. Another US think tank, Stratfor, also said that in the context of ''jihadi insurgency along India's western frontier and Pakistan seemingly losing control of its militant proxies, another major Islamist attack in India is inevitable''. Meanwhile, the US state department, while ranking India ''among the world's most terrorism affected countries'' deplored that ''the Indian government's counterterrorism efforts remained hampered by its outdated and overburdened law enforcement and legal systems''. Government no doubt took some positive measures in the wake of 26/11. However, our overall preparedness leaves much to be desired. The police and intelligence organisations in the states continue to be in poor shape. The majority of states have been lackadaisical in implementing the Supreme Court's directions on police reforms. The Centre has been dragging its feet over introducing the Model Police Bill for Delhi and the Union territories. The police force is woefully short of manpower, apart from the fact that a sizeable chunk of the force is diverted to protect so-called VIPs. There is misplaced emphasis on open-ended expansion of the paramilitary forces. What we need to actually augment is the civil police force. The 'thana' does not inspire any confidence either by its appearance or by its resources and equipment. Beat constables, the crucial link in internal security, exist on paper alone. Modernisation of the police has been slow, as has been highlighted by the Comptroller and Auditor General. Recruitment procedures are tainted and training continues to be neglected. The executive has, in some states, devastated the chain of command with deleterious effects on discipline in the ranks. If the morale of the police is low today, it's thanks to the politicians and the bureaucracy. The Congress party, in its manifesto, recognised the ''imperative of police reforms''. It stated, ''A clear distinction between the political executive and police administration will be made''. The manifesto also assured that the police force ''will be better provisioned especially in the matter of housing and educational facilities''. The president has also reiterated the government's commitment to police reforms. It is high time that these promises are acted upon. At the national level, our anti-terror policy must be defined in explicit terms. The National Investigating Agency and the Central Bureau of Investigation need to be merged. Having two parallel central investigating agencies makes no sense. The performance of the Research & Analysis Wing remains a matter of concern. It must develop offensive capabilities. The Intelligence Bureau needs to be depoliticised. The National Security Council is almost dysfunctional and the National Security Advisory Board has become a parking spot for retired officers who are in the good books of the establishment. The problem of Bangladeshi immigration was dusted under the carpet by all previous governments. That cannot continue. To start with, fencing our borders with Bangladesh should be completed expeditiously overruling all political objections at the local level. The scheme to give multi-purpose identity cards to all Indian citizens should be implemented post-haste. In due course, government must prevail upon Bangladesh to accept the fact of illegal immigration and take back at least some of its nationals on the basis of a mutually agreed cut-off date. It was unfortunate that in the wake of 26/11, the government did not appoint a national commission to examine the lapses in security and suggest comprehensive measures to overhaul the security matrix. Perhaps those in power scuttled the proposal lest they were exposed and held accountable. Though belated, the new government may still consider appointing such a commission to investigate systemic failures and recommend appropriate remedial measures. The writer is a former director-general, BSF. From 2tahamehmood at googlemail.com Fri Jun 12 18:02:37 2009 From: 2tahamehmood at googlemail.com (Taha Mehmood) Date: Fri, 12 Jun 2009 13:32:37 +0100 Subject: [Reader-list] MNIC: Parliament Questions - 21 Message-ID: <65be9bf40906120532p29ee9089j4b90cabf489363e4@mail.gmail.com> http://164.100.47.132/psearch/QResult13.aspx?qref=25384 GOVERNMENT OF INDIA MINISTRY OF DEFENCE LOK SABHA UNSTARRED QUESTION NO 504 ANSWERED ON 25.07.2001 SPECIAL IDENTITY CARDS FOR ARMYMEN IN KASHMIR 504 . Shri CHANDRA NATH SINGH (a) whether the Government are contemplating to give special Identity Cards to army personnels deployed in Kashmir Valley; (b) if so, the details thereof and the reasons therefor; and (c) the measures adopted/proposed to be adopted by the Government to deal with the recent threat of increasing attacks on armed forces by Lashkar-E-Toiba? ANSWER MINISTER OF DEFENCE (SHRI JASWANT SINGH) (a) & (b): No such scheme is contemplated. (c) The situation in J&K is well under control. Adequate measures continue to be taken to counter threats by the terrorists. From c.anupam at gmail.com Fri Jun 12 18:41:48 2009 From: c.anupam at gmail.com (anupam chakravartty) Date: Fri, 12 Jun 2009 18:41:48 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] News Items posted on the net on Multipurpose National Identity Cards-126 In-Reply-To: <65be9bf40906120528i2f92e52egf1094030a96b5420@mail.gmail.com> References: <65be9bf40906120528i2f92e52egf1094030a96b5420@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <341380d00906120611j6c37901fi66847a6be6cc961c@mail.gmail.com> Some thing about Rand corp that I wanted to share: http://www.hereinreality.com/news/rand.html On 6/12/09, Taha Mehmood <2tahamehmood at googlemail.com> wrote: > > > http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/Editorial/TOP-ARTICLE--Step-Up-To-The-Task/articleshow/4645381.cms > > TOP ARTICLE | Step Up To The Task > 12 Jun 2009, 0000 hrs IST, Prakash Singh > > The president's address to Parliament unveiled an ambitious agenda for > reforms in which internal security has been given high priority, and > rightly so. The country has been reassured that the government would > follow a policy of ''zero tolerance'' towards terrorism and that > ''stern measures'' would be taken to deal with insurgency and > left-wing extremism. > > Unfortunately, there is a sense of complacency that has set in here > because there has been no major incident since 26/11. We must remember > that the reason there has been no major terror strike since the Mumbai > attacks has been more due to the international pressure on Pakistan > and the action taken by that country against terrorists operating > within its boundaries rather than any strengthening of the security > apparatus by our government. > > As soon as Pakistan is able to get the economic assistance it > desperately needs, it would revert to its old game of sponsoring > terrorism. The manner in which Hafiz Saeed, chief of the banned > Jamaat-ud-Dawa (JuD), and founder of the outlawed Lashkar-a-Taiba > (LeT), has been let off the hook is evidence, if needed at all, of > Pakistan's ambivalence. It is absolutely essential, therefore, that > the government improves our security architecture comprehensively. > Else, all our efforts in other areas would come to a naught. Economic > development can take place only in a secure environment. > > It may be recalled that the Rand Corporation, a US think tank, had, in > the aftermath of the 26/11 incidents in Mumbai, clearly warned that > ''India will continue to face a serious jihadi terrorist threat from > Pakistan-based terrorist groups for the foreseeable future''. In fact, > it even said ''the threat will continue to grow''. Another US think > tank, Stratfor, also said that in the context of ''jihadi insurgency > along India's western frontier and Pakistan seemingly losing control > of its militant proxies, another major Islamist attack in India is > inevitable''. > > Meanwhile, the US state department, while ranking India ''among the > world's most terrorism affected countries'' deplored that ''the Indian > government's counterterrorism efforts remained hampered by its > outdated and overburdened law enforcement and legal systems''. > Government no doubt took some positive measures in the wake of 26/11. > However, our overall preparedness leaves much to be desired. > > The police and intelligence organisations in the states continue to be > in poor shape. The majority of states have been lackadaisical in > implementing the Supreme Court's directions on police reforms. The > Centre has been dragging its feet over introducing the Model Police > Bill for Delhi and the Union territories. The police force is woefully > short of manpower, apart from the fact that a sizeable chunk of the > force is diverted to protect so-called VIPs. There is misplaced > emphasis on open-ended expansion of the paramilitary forces. What we > need to actually augment is the civil police force. > > The 'thana' does not inspire any confidence either by its appearance > or by its resources and equipment. Beat constables, the crucial link > in internal security, exist on paper alone. Modernisation of the > police has been slow, as has been highlighted by the Comptroller and > Auditor General. Recruitment procedures are tainted and training > continues to be neglected. The executive has, in some states, > devastated the chain of command with deleterious effects on discipline > in the ranks. If the morale of the police is low today, it's thanks to > the politicians and the bureaucracy. > > The Congress party, in its manifesto, recognised the ''imperative of > police reforms''. It stated, ''A clear distinction between the > political executive and police administration will be made''. The > manifesto also assured that the police force ''will be better > provisioned especially in the matter of housing and educational > facilities''. The president has also reiterated the government's > commitment to police reforms. It is high time that these promises are > acted upon. > > At the national level, our anti-terror policy must be defined in > explicit terms. The National Investigating Agency and the Central > Bureau of Investigation need to be merged. Having two parallel central > investigating agencies makes no sense. The performance of the Research > & Analysis Wing remains a matter of concern. It must develop offensive > capabilities. The Intelligence Bureau needs to be depoliticised. The > National Security Council is almost dysfunctional and the National > Security Advisory Board has become a parking spot for retired officers > who are in the good books of the establishment. > > The problem of Bangladeshi immigration was dusted under the carpet by > all previous governments. That cannot continue. To start with, fencing > our borders with Bangladesh should be completed expeditiously > overruling all political objections at the local level. The scheme to > give multi-purpose identity cards to all Indian citizens should be > implemented post-haste. In due course, government must prevail upon > Bangladesh to accept the fact of illegal immigration and take back at > least some of its nationals on the basis of a mutually agreed cut-off > date. > > It was unfortunate that in the wake of 26/11, the government did not > appoint a national commission to examine the lapses in security and > suggest comprehensive measures to overhaul the security matrix. > Perhaps those in power scuttled the proposal lest they were exposed > and held accountable. Though belated, the new government may still > consider appointing such a commission to investigate systemic failures > and recommend appropriate remedial measures. > > The writer is a former director-general, BSF. > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > subscribe in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> From 2tahamehmood at googlemail.com Fri Jun 12 19:55:23 2009 From: 2tahamehmood at googlemail.com (Taha Mehmood) Date: Fri, 12 Jun 2009 15:25:23 +0100 Subject: [Reader-list] News Items posted on the net on Multipurpose National Identity Cards-126 In-Reply-To: <341380d00906120611j6c37901fi66847a6be6cc961c@mail.gmail.com> References: <65be9bf40906120528i2f92e52egf1094030a96b5420@mail.gmail.com> <341380d00906120611j6c37901fi66847a6be6cc961c@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <65be9bf40906120725m470f53ddia23c47dde97e7893@mail.gmail.com> Dear Anupam Thanks for sharing this info about the social networks which constitute the so called 'think tank' called RAND. With MNIC too we can find an oblique resemblance. In late nineties when MNIC was introduced, curiously similar people who were debating this idea were part of different committees. Each committee was being formed and made redundant on the formation of the next committee. The next committee was made on the recommendation of the former committee. The next committee had some members of the former committee and some new members and upon its constitution it took decisions based on the proposals of the former committee. In my essay titled, 'Notes From a Contested History of MINC Card' ( http://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/2008-December/017068.html ), I have tried to re-trace the sociopolitical networks which were at work. All in all the members of Kargil Review Committee, National Security Service Council, the Group of Ministers, Border Security Task Force and so on were responsible for first introducing the idea of the card for border areas only, then for some unexplained reason the idea of a national identity card was conflated to a national scale. The reasons for such an action of course do not appeal to any formal logic, but surely it seems to appeal to an 'irrational' whim of power. We still do not know why there is not even a single comprehensive debate on and about national identity cards in India when there seems to be a conscious acknowledgment of a fact that such a technology may not fully deliver what it promises, especially in Western countries like the UK? Nor we, as citizens of India are made aware of the total costs involved of initializing, operationalizing and maintaining such a huge program on a long term basis. We don't know what is opportunity cost of such an investment? Can we absolutely cannot do with a citizenship token, we don't know? Isn't it high time when we start making noises about a probable transfer of almost 27,000-30,000 crores of rupees in the short run. It is quite clear the MNIC appears as a legitimate front to transfer huge amount of public money in the name of security, entitlement, ease of services and so on. However, it is another matter that no where on this earth there exists a precedent which unambiguously measures a clear cor-relationship between the presence of national identity card and erasure of illegal immigrants or for that matter presence of national identity cards and minimization of corruption or an increase in efficiency. However there exists many instances of the practice of 'data creep' by the Governments. For instance, during the WWII when rationing was first introduced by the UK government's Department of Food and Civil Supplies, the data gathered on UK citizens in lieu of giving food, was used by twenty three governments departments to snoop on private individuals and formulate policy when the government had tacitly promised that this data will be used by three departments only. It might be noted that during the latter half of WWII, a national identity card was introduced in the UK however such a card was abolished within the next decade amidst growing suspicion about the intentions of the government of the day and cost of running such a program. It seems that in India, we are hell bent on first committing an error then learning from it than spending some time to ponder and reflect. Warm regards Taha From 2tahamehmood at googlemail.com Fri Jun 12 19:59:09 2009 From: 2tahamehmood at googlemail.com (Taha Mehmood) Date: Fri, 12 Jun 2009 15:29:09 +0100 Subject: [Reader-list] News Items posted on the net on Multipurpose National Identity Cards-126 In-Reply-To: <341380d00906120611j6c37901fi66847a6be6cc961c@mail.gmail.com> References: <65be9bf40906120528i2f92e52egf1094030a96b5420@mail.gmail.com> <341380d00906120611j6c37901fi66847a6be6cc961c@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <65be9bf40906120729n2828395ex6a46128ecc00b5ec@mail.gmail.com> Dear Anupam Thanks for sharing this info about the social networks which constitute the so called 'think tank' called RAND. With MNIC too we can find an oblique resemblance. In late nineties when MNIC was introduced, curiously similar people who were debating this idea were part of different committees. Each committee was being formed and made redundant on the formation of the next committee. The next committee was made on the recommendation of the former committee. The next committee had some members of the former committee and some new members and upon its constitution it took decisions based on the proposals of the former committee. In my essay titled, 'Notes From a Contested History of MINC Card' ( http://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/2008-December/017068.html ), I have tried to re-trace the sociopolitical networks which were at work. All in all the members of Kargil Review Committee, National Security Service Council, the Group of Ministers, Border Security Task Force and so on were responsible for first introducing the idea of the card for border areas only, then for some unexplained reason the idea of a national identity card was conflated to a national scale. The reasons for such an action of course do not appeal to any formal logic, but surely it seems to appeal to an 'irrational' whim of power. We still do not know why there is not even a single comprehensive debate on and about national identity cards in India when there seems to be a conscious acknowledgment of a fact that such a technology may not fully deliver what it promises, especially in Western countries like the UK? Nor we, as citizens of India are made aware of the total costs involved of initializing, operationalizing and maintaining such a huge program on a long term basis. We don't know what is opportunity cost of such an investment? Can we absolutely cannot do with a citizenship token, we don't know? Isn't it high time when we start making noises about a probable transfer of almost 27,000-30,000 crores of rupees in the short run. It is quite clear the MNIC appears as a legitimate front to transfer huge amount of public money in the name of security, entitlement, ease of services and so on. However, it is another matter that no where on this earth there exists a precedent which unambiguously measures a clear cor-relationship between the presence of national identity card and erasure of illegal immigrants or for that matter presence of national identity cards and minimization of corruption or an increase in efficiency. However there exists many instances of the practice of 'data creep' by the Governments. For instance, during the WWII when rationing was first introduced by the UK government's Department of Food and Civil Supplies, the data gathered on UK citizens in lieu of giving food, was used by twenty three governments departments to snoop on private individuals and formulate policy when the government had tacitly promised that this data will be used by three departments only. It might be noted that during the latter half of WWII, a national identity card was introduced in the UK however such a card was abolished within the next decade amidst growing suspicion about the intentions of the government of the day and cost of running such a program. It seems that in India, we are hell bent on first committing an error then learning from it than spending some time to ponder and reflect. Warm regards Taha From patrice at xs4all.nl Fri Jun 12 20:10:45 2009 From: patrice at xs4all.nl (Patrice Riemens) Date: Fri, 12 Jun 2009 16:40:45 +0200 (CEST) Subject: [Reader-list] Fwd: DARGAH Sufism Database - update Pakistan Message-ID: <49345.86.91.173.154.1244817645.squirrel@webmail.xs4all.nl> Bwo Bricolabs mailing list/ Atteqa Malik A very important friend, Sameeta Ahmed who is also associate professor of Architecture in Abottabad, Pakistan is attempting this task and mapping Sufi Heritage sites in Pakistan. Mauj is on board with her for any thing she needs. She is someone who can actually accomplish this important task, a small effort in the face of "Taliban" types who are trying to erase Sufi culture from Pakistan more info and project proposal can be sent to you Anyone interested as a resource person pls. fill out the following form by June 15 and send her/me Atteqa ---------- Forwarded message ---------- From: sameeta ahmed Date: Mon, Jun 1, 2009 at 11:54 AM Subject: DARGAH Sufism Database - update Hello Dargah Friends, Salam, and how have you been? Here I have been talking to more people about their ideas and possible joining in as Resource-Persons [RPs]; also have been looking into technical options of the database design. Please join in with your comments and ideas, and *RPs - if you could please fill out some qs about yourself listed below (by June 15),* which we can share and with which we start ‘mapping out’ the multi-faceted subject area of Sufism. Remember that you are also part of the ‘map’! or can a database be called a metaphorical bottomless *sandooq*, a boundary-less treasure-chest? Actually, this simile needs to be gotten just right in the software design- so tech-interested ppl pl join in with your wisdom on that discussion below thanks so much, Sameeta. ----- *A. Resourcepersons [see below]*: i. Profile and Role of the Resource-Person ii. Your Resource-person Profile [please fill out by June 15 ‘09] * * *B. Database Software Design - Technical discussion* -- have looked into these open-s software options which seem fine but they are social network-focused: dolphin, drupal, elegg. I really want to know more about ‘database’-based software – free programs that are focused for library-type portals which can keep growing, and have advanced cross-referencing/search features, with networking features too of course. -- have also looked into GIS conversion of data. Seems like whatever form the data is given now, as long as there are SHAPE files involved, it can be converted into attribute data of a GIS at any point – when its time to digitize that map of Pakistan and beyond. For now, a GoogleEarth map with darts thrown at it will do for a poor dervish group. * * * ..* * * *A. Resource-Persons*: *Profile of the Dargah Database Resource-Person in various theme areas: * an expert/specialist/practitioner/researcher/enthusiast with a strong interest and familiarity with the concerned theme area, who is willing to collaborate in the effort to create and manage the database, working in a voluntary capacity. The time and work expectations would be flexible but a commitment to the project and consistent contribution is expected, with a collaborative and professional approach. There can be more than one RP in each theme area. * * *Role of the Resource-Person:* - Operate as a ‘clearing house’ of information coming in to the database about her particular area of expertise. - Moderate views expressed in her area by contributors or visitors to the site. - Post references, research, online links etc in her area of expertise. - Invite other specialists in her area to contribute info, references, journal articles, online references, etc. to the database. - Monitor the database in her area of expertise with assistance from the project manager. *Resource-Person Profile: * [please fill out the following info about yourself and send to me by 15 June ’09. thanks!]: NAME: THEME AREA for which you are a RESOURCE-PERSON: YOUR PROFESSION/ WORK THEMES: YOUR INTERESTS RELATED TO SUFISM: YOUR GENERAL INTERESTS: YOUR GEOGRAPHICAL BASE: INTRODUCTORY STATEMENT ABOUT YOUR THEME AREA – in relation to the DARGAH database [ how this field can be connected with the database, what material might be readily available, what material might be relevant but not easy to acquire etc.]: If you can also please start compiling the following, and these can be shared/updated every month or two, or as your schedule allows: a. List of CONTACTS of individual scholars/practitioners, as well as relevant institutions for theme area: b. BIBLIOGRAPHY of print and multimedia resources: . -- Sameeta Ahmed Architect. Member, ICOMOS (International Council on Monuments and Sites) Pakistan National Committee, Assistant Professor, Department of Architecture, NWFP University of Engineering & Technology, Abbottabad Campus Cell: 0345-290-4100 0992-383-409 sameetaahmed at gmail.com, sameeta at nwfpuet.edu.pk _______________________________________________ read our blogs http://planet.bricolabs.net write our wiki http://wiki.bricolabs.net From pawan.durani at gmail.com Sat Jun 13 10:12:40 2009 From: pawan.durani at gmail.com (Pawan Durani) Date: Sat, 13 Jun 2009 10:12:40 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Sodaratiratha : Myth, Legend and History Message-ID: <6b79f1a70906122142y5f825f54tf6696ad00ee9b8e2@mail.gmail.com> Sodaratiratha : Myth, Legend and History By Dr. Ramesh Kumar Background: For Kashmiri Hindus all the images erected by the sages and all the great lakes in Kashmir are holy. Regular pilgrimmages to these places have formed an integral part of their socio-religious history. Naran Nag, located at the foot of steep Butsher mountain leading to Gangabal pilgrimage, has from times immemorial remained a site of pilgrimmage, enjoying a very high degree of popular esteem. It is ten miles away from Kangan, the last major town on Srinagar-Sonamarg highway. In ancient times, it was called Sodaratiratha. The sanctity of Naran Nag is derived from the existence of a large spring, Sodara Nag. Around it have been built two, actually three groups of temples in east and west directions. In terms of antiquity, these temples have been erected around the same time as Sankaracharya temple and Bumuzuv temple, near Mattan on Pahalgam road. Only the temple remains of Payech seem more ancient. The importance of the pilgrimage to Sadaratiratha continues to the present times, but more as an extension of Gangabal pilgrimage. Pilgrims after consigning the ashes of their dead relatives to the Gangabal (Uttaramanasa) lake, make it a point to offer worship here, by staying overnight. The myth, legend and the history of Sodaratiratha indicates that it had an importance of its own, rivalled by few pilgrimages. The Sodaranag has been lost in the tradition of Purohitas as well as in the religious lore of Kashmiri Pandits. Pandit Sahibram, that careful scholar on Kashmir's socio-religious history, in his monumental work Tirtha Samgraha, refers to the antiquity of Naran Nag. In his notes on Harmuktaganga pilgrimage, he writes. Tatah (the Harmuktganga Lake) Pratyavrtya Vangatakhyapradese (Vangath) Prathamam Bhutesvara Pujam Vidhya Sodarnage Yastim (viz. the long stick used on the mountain pilgrimage) Ksiptra Visrjya Pratyayat. Nilmatpurana mentions Sodaranaga in connection with the shrine of Bhutesvara (Buthsher) and Kankavahini river. Ablutions in the Sodara spring are recommended to the pilgrim visiting the tirathas of Bhutesvara, Jyesthesa and Nandin. The particular region around the spring of Sodaranag was also known as Bhuteshvara or Shiva Bhutesha-the lord of beings. This entire area is clad by dense pine and fir forests. Roaring stream of Kanakvahini (present Kanaknai/Kankinaz or Karanknadi of Harmuktganga Mahatmya), flows to the south of Sodaratiratha. It is formed from the tributaries, which flow out from the sacred Nundkol (Kalodoka) and Gangabal lakes. Temple ruins are seen on the right bank of Kanak Vahini. Wangat (Vangat), the nearest village with human habitation is five kms. away and gives the name to the temple ruins as "Wangat Temples". Wangat is ancient Vashisthasrama, named after sage Vashistha. He, as per tradition, stayed here while consecrating Linga called Jyesthesa at Naran Nag. Sodaranag: Sodara Nag spring lies to the north of the temple complex and is a oblong-rectangular structure. Its northern side is a rocky area and the original spring has been camouflaged with a drain chamber. The other three walls are built in dressed and polished masonry in a stepped fashion. In the rocky surface a few lingas are also carved in the rock face. RC Agarwal believes that these lingas date to fifth-sixth century AD. About the spring, he remarks that in the early historical period it was properly channelled and a tank was scooped out for storing the spring water. The tank is lined with ancient slabs. The sanctity of the tank-spring has also aroused much interest among the archaeologists. RC Agarwal comments, "the sanctity of the tank or Pushkarni was so overwhelming that in the later period it was used for performing rituals and became a tirtha, which in subsequent historical writing came to be known as Sodaratiratha." In the opinion of Pandit RC Kak, the pioneer archeologist of Kashmir, "its cool, delicious water, perhaps contributed to some extent to its sanctity". The spiritual merits of taking bath in Sodaranag have been enumerated at length in Nilmat, our principal source for studying significance of Sodaranag. It says that one may obtain prominence among the ganas by seeing Hara Bhutesvara, Jyesthesvara and Nandi after taking bath in the holy Sodara. The merits of taking bath in the Sodaranag and Uttarmanasa (Gangbal) lake are same i.e. one thousand cows. In fact, Uttaramanasa is believed to be the abode of Sodaranaga and the linga Jyethesa at Naran Nag is washed with water from Uttaramanasa lake. One can also attain the merit of performing Rajasuya and Asvamedha by taking a dip in the Sodaranag. Sodara (Kashmiri) is derived from Sanskrit Samudra, meaning ocean. What expanse and depth of this spring impressed the ancient Kashmiris so much that they mistook it for Samudra' Kashmir being far away from the sea, the expanse and the depth of blue-coloured Gangabal lake reminded Kashmiris of sea. And possibly for those who could not withstand the hazardous mountain journey, mini-Gangabal was created as Sodaranag at Naran Nag. Siva Bhutesha Worship: Nandiksetra or Nandisaksetra refers to the whole sacred territory from the lakes on the Harmukta down to Bhutesvara. Sodaratiratha lies at the outermost limit of Nandiksetra. Nandisa is the designation of the Shiva worshipped in the Nund-Kol lake (Kalodaka lake). The inner portion of the lake showing blue colour is supposed to mark the residence of Kala or Siva. The outer portion having light green colour is the place where Nandin lives. There is a legendary description of how Siva came to take up his residence in this area in the form of Bhutesa, in Nilmatpurana. The mountain spur, which stretches south-east from Harmukh peaks marks the residence of Bhutesa. It bears to the present day the name of Buthsher i.e. Bhutesvara. Both Kalhana and Sir Aurel Stein have commented eloquently about the religious significance of this region. Kalhana says, "there even to this day drops of Sandal ointment offered by the gods are to be seen at Nandiksetra, the permanent residence of Siva". Stein writes, "the worship of Siva Bhutesa, 'the lord of the beings' localised near the sacred sites of Mount Harmukh has played an important part in ancient religion of Kashmir". In the Nilmat, Siva says to Nandi, "you shall live in my company in a place at a distance of one Yojana from here towards the east. O best of the ganas, I in the form of Hara Bhutesvara, shall dwell in your company. O Nandi, the gifted sage Vasistha on the earth shall erect your image and also mine at that place." At Naran Nag, there are temples erected in honour of Siva Bhutesa and Siva Ugresa. Bhairava together with a 'circle of mothers' (Matrachakra) is worshipped close to Bhutesa temple. As Bhairva is connected with bloody sacrifices, his shrines are kept some distance away from those of other deities. Matrachakra refers to the Saivite goddesses, the Sapta Matrka or seven mothers, representing Life and Death, radiant loveliness and hideous ugliness. Jyestharudra Cult: However, Sodaratiratha's fame rests on its being the original sanctuary of Siva Jyesthesa or Jyestharudra. As per legend, Siva liberated Parvati (Jyestha) from Daityas here and on marrying her took the name of Jyethesa. In the Jyesthesa temple at Naran Nag, Siva is worshipped as linga. Nilmat says that the consecration and first worship of the Jyestharudra linga is distinctly attributed to Rishivasistha. When Bishop Cowie visited Naran Nag in late nineteenth century, he found the base of a colossal linga at the South-West corner of the enclosure of Jyestharudra temple complex. Stein comments that this remnant of linga which Cowie found, "belonged perhaps to the very emblem of Jyesthesa." Linga was worshipped here under the name Svayambhuh i.e. natural stone and not sculptured symbol of god. The similar lingas are worshipped at Sarikaparvat and Suresvari. There are basically three sites in Kashmir, where Siva Jyesthesa was worshipped under this name or its equivalents, Jyesthesvara and Jyestharudra. These are Mt. Harmukta in the sacred territory of Nandiksetra; near Tripuresvara (Modern Triphar) i.e. between Mahadev and Suresvar; and in the close neighbourhood of Srinagar. Shrines at Sodaranag have enjoyed liberal patronage from successive Kashmirian Kings. For their abiding faith, they often retired to this place for offering penance. Since royal citizenry frequently visited this place, the locality has also been called 'Rajdainabal'. Families of Asoka, and Kalhana had great reverence for the shrines of Nandiksetra. During Asoka's time, Kashmir was overrun by Mlecchas (Greeks). He offered austerities to Siva Bhutesa and obtained from him a son, later named as Jaluka, in order to exterminate mlecchas. According to Rajatarangini, Jaluka (137 BC) erected a stone temple at Nandiksetra for Siva Bhutesa and offered to the god a sacrifice of precious stones with other treasures. The offering of flowers made of precious metals and stones is mentioned in various Saiva Paddhatis still in use in Kashmir. This temple has been identified with Siva Bhutesa temple at Naran Nag. Jaluka vanquished the Mlecchas, by defeating them at Ujjhatadimba. Having done this, the King through his queen Isanadevi founded Matracakras all over the Valley, particularly in the frontier region. He began regular worship at Sodara and other places as vying with Nandisa. It is said Jaluka would attend every day to worship of tirathas so distant from each other as Vijayesvara and Sodaratiratha. The journey from Vijayesvara to Jyethesa in Nandiksetra is nearly 100 kms. To rationalise this, Kalhana writes, "A Naga out of kindness would not allow him to ride in stages (four marches) with horses kept ready from village to village, but carried him always himself". Distance to Sodara made him uneasy. He created a shrine in Srinagar near Dal Lake, which rivalled Sodaratiratha. The shrine is located at Jyether village, adjoining the Sankaracharya hill. Fragments of a massive linga as big as ten feet in diameter have been found here. While engaged in erecting Jyestharudra shrine at Jyether, Jaluka felt that without the Sodara spring, it could not rival Nandisa. There is a legendary account mentioned by Kalhana regarding the emergence and sanctity of Jyesthanaga (at Jyether), rivalling Sodaranag. Once in his preoccupation with state affairs, he felt dismayed at not being able to take his bath in the waters of the far-off Sodara spring. He observed in a waterless spot water suddenly welling up which in colour, taste and other respects was indistinguishable from that of Sodara. After having a dip in this sacred bring, the King felt satisfied in his desire to vie Nandirudra (Nandisa). To test the identity of the new spring, he threw into the Sodara spring an empty golden cup, closed at its mouth with a lid. His doubts were removed, when the cup appeared two and a half days later in this new spring at Jyether. Kalhana magnifies importance of this miracle by saying, "It seems that the King was Nandisa himself, who had descended in an Avtara to enjoy the pleasures of the earth. Not otherwise could such a miraculous event take place before men's very eyes." Patronage: Sodaratirtha's sanctity invited the attention of Kings and nobility of Kashmir. They raised temples and gifted wealth to the shrine. Temples were endowed with extensive estates and the priests incharge seem to have been a particularly influential body. The earliest evidence about the royal contribution to the shrine goes back to 253 BC, when King Narendraditya I alias Khimkhila was ruling Kashmir. He consecrated shrines of Siva Bhutesvara and founded a permanent endowment for feeding of Brahmans. His guru Ugra constructed shrines of Siva Ugresa and a 'circle of mothers'. In Jayendra's time (61 BC), the three most famous shrines of Siva worship were Bhutesa, Vardhamanesa (Ganpatyar) and Vijayeya (Bijbehara). King Sandhimati (24 BC) alias Aryaraja (Vikramaditya dynasty) also used to worship at Sodaratirtha. About his devotion, Kalhana writes, "when he went about to beg his food, he was welcomed with much respect as a follower of the observances ordained by Siva. The wives of the ascetics vied eagerly in every hermitage to give him alms. But as his alms-bowl was filled with choice fruits and blossoms by the trees he, who deserved respect, had not to suffer the humiliation of mendicancy even when he lived the life of renunciation". The King had stood infront of the shrine of Siva Bhutesa at Sodaratirtha. In true fashion of ascetics he had covered himself with white ash, with his neatly arranged hair tied in a knot. He carried a rosary, marked with Rudraksa. Lalitaditya (713-755) on return from his victorious expeditions presented huge sums (' eleven crores) of his war booty as an expiatory offering to the shrine. He erected a lofty stone temple of Siva Jyestharudra in close proximity to the shrine and also made a grant of land and villages. Avantivarman (855-883), a man of wisdom and culture, made a pedestal with silver conduit for bathing of sacred image (snanadroni). He had similar conduits installed at Tripuresvara and Vijaysevara. Jayasimha also consecrated a linga of Siva called Bhutesvara here. His Prime Minister Srngara, son of Sajjaka would spend great sums to make available at shrine ample provisions for celebration of full moon day of Asadha. This festival (Devas Vapana), mentioned in Nilmat, would be celebrated over ten days. Writing about Srngara's arrangements, Kalhana says, "in recent times even Kings could not have imitated. He had been directed there by Canpaka (Kalhana's Minister-father) and others. Thereby he obtained subsequently prosperity for five-six years". Sumanas, brother of Rilhana, another minister of Jayasimha built a matha or congregation hall here. RC Kak says, "It is possible that the pillared hall is the same matha. Further excavations may throw light upon this question." Nobility and Kings often desired to retire to Sodara tiratha. Queen Ratnadevi, after erecting matha at Ratnapora, retired to Nandiksetra. King Kalasa (1063-1089) is quoted by Kalhana as having said, "After completing the foundation of my town, I shall throw upon you the burden of the crown and go as an ascetic to Varnasi or Nandiksetra". Kalhana's family was equally devoted to Sodaratirtha shrine. His father Canpaka paid frequent visits to the shrines of Nandiksetra i.e. Buthser and made rich endowments there. Every year he would spend seven days at this tiratha and utilise his entire sayings. Ultimately he retired to Nandiksetra. Kalhana's uncle Kanaka also used to frequent this shrine. In fact, the nearest town of Kangan (old name Kankanpora) is named after him. The lavish gifts and treasures bestowed upon the shrine led to its plunder from time to time. A powerful Damara from Lahara (modern Lar), Dhanova in the time of Avantivarman plundered the villages attached to the shrine. Once Avantivarman had come to worship at Siva Bhutesvara. After having presented on his own behalf sacrificial apparatus, which was in keeping with his royal dignity, he noticed that the temple priests had placed on the base of the god's image as an offering a wild growing vegetable with a bitter estate, Utpalasaka (Wopal hakh). When King asked the priests the reason for such an offering, they threw themselves on the ground, and spoke with hands folded. The Purohitas of the shrine wanted to demonstrate to King the poverty to which they were reduced by placing before the image, instead of proper offerings, leaves of Utpalasaka i.e. a present of no value. The King left the worship, feigning colic, making it appear as if he had not heard what he had heard. His minister Sura understood and went to Bhairava temple near Bhutesa. He tactfully ordered off the assembled crowd. Having done this, when only few attendants remained, Sura asked Dhanova to present himself. He appeared after repeated calls from Sura. Minister's armed men were ordered to decapitate Dhanova near the image of Bhairava temple, located higher up to Sodaranag. The body of the Dhanova was thrown into the basin of Naran Nag, the pond close by. Kalhana writes, "the wise Sura, who had thus removed the King's displeasure, went outside after having the body, from which the blood was pouring forth, thrown into the tank close by". Bhadreshvara, Minister of King Sangramraja (1003-28) also committed a similar hateful deed in plundering the treasury of Bhutesvara. The shrine was burnt during the reign of Uccala (1101-11) by a sudden conflagration. The King rebuilt it a fresh, finer than before. During the rebellions under Jayasimha (1128-55), the temples were sacked by the marauding hillmen (Khasas) at the instigation of rebel baron Haya Vadana. Shrine of Bhutesvara seems to have escaped the sacrilegious confiscations of King Harsa. There are no records available which speak about vandalism or consecration of new temples at Naran Nag during the Sultanate rule or later Muslim period. Post Script: As pilgrims failed to reach distant Sodaratirtha, they created its replicas close to their homes. Near Hazratbal on the deep inlet of Dal (Sudrkhun) lies the village Sudrabal. Stein believes that both Sudrkhun and Sudarabal are linked to Sodara spring. There are also two pools fed by perennial springs near the lake shore and close to the mosque of Sudarabal. There is a definite tradition which says that these springs were visited by numerous pilgrims. Infact, a portion of Sudrabal village is called Battapor. This points to a former settlement of Pandits. In North Kashmir, there is a village, Sudrkoth (Srivara mentions it as Samudrakota) near northeast shore of volur. Sudr'mar is the quarter in which lies Somatirtha of Rajatarangini, built by queen Samudra of King Ramadeva in 13th century. It was also called Samudramatha. Source: Kashmir Sentinel From kmvenuannur at gmail.com Sat Jun 13 10:26:45 2009 From: kmvenuannur at gmail.com (Venugopalan K M) Date: Sat, 13 Jun 2009 10:26:45 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] =?windows-1252?q?Special_Investigation_Team_=28SIT?= =?windows-1252?q?=29_=96_Hope_Or_Despair_Of_2002_Gujarat_Genocide_?= =?windows-1252?q?Victims_=3F_By_R=2EB=2ESreekumar?= Message-ID: <1f9180970906122156m5a6b881t1bb4e9afee11ac80@mail.gmail.com> Special Investigation Team (SIT) – Hope Or Despair Of 2002 Gujarat Genocide Victims ? By R.B.Sreekumar 11 June, 2009 Countercurrents.org The categorical order by the Apex Court, on 27-4-2009, on the petition by Mrs. Zakia Jafri, W/o Late Ahsan Jafri, the Congress MP killed in the riots and Mrs.Teesta Setalvad, for Citizens for Justice and Peace (CJP), evoked great hope and expectations in the victims of 2002 genocidal crimes. The Court ordered the SIT “to take steps as required in Law”. Will this order result in delivery of long delayed justice to the sufferers of 2002 carnage or end up in an exercise to cause the least damage to those who conceived, designed, organized, mobilized, prepared and perpetrated the bloodbath on a group of Indian citizens through motivated violent mobs, under the patronage of the state machinery ? Either of these outcomes is possible. The ball is in the court of the SIT. Incase the SIT is keen to proceed on positive line, it should examine the massive and comprehensive quantum of evidence confirming conspiracy, course and execution of mass crimes and subsequent prolonged and on-going subversion of the Criminal Justice System(CJS), for denying justice to the victims. The evidence in the FIR by Mrs. Jafri graphically portrays a series of circumstances and developments in the form of deliberate and pre-meditated acts of omission and commission by the Chief Minister Narendra Modi and his collaborators and abettors of mass crimes in the bureaucracy, actualizing the bloodbath. There is sufficient prima facie proof in the FIR to testify this. The first unavoidable step by SIT “as required in law” will be to register an FIR against the accused, in the relevant police station, assume the powers of the Investigating Officer (IO) under chapter 12 of CRPC and commence collection of evidence by invoking all techniques and procedures, viz , interrogation, search, recovery of incriminating material, use of forensic science and so on. The items of evidence, in the FIR, need to be examined by the SIT, point by point and nugget by nugget, for proving or disproving the material therein and draw up the road map towards the final destination of arrest and prosecution of the accused or submission of final report u/s 173 CRPC. The accused figuring in the Jafri FIR includes the long serving Chief Minister, other Ministers, Assembly Speaker, serving and retired Senior officers, who were/are the hierarchical supervisors of practically all Gujarat Police staff from Addl. DGP Geetha Johari and Shivanand Jha to the constabulary, who are tasked for investigation against their own supervisors. Strangely the authority for performance assessment of these officers, covering even the work regarding the Jafri FIR, is vested with the same departmental bosses, of whom many are accused persons !!!. The recent observations by Apex Court (May 2009), in the case of granting remand to accused of British nationals murder case are illustrative. The Court said “nothing has been pointed out before us “by the SIT” as to why even the bail granted should be cancelled ….. there was no sufficient or cogent material to justify the need for custodial interrogation of the accused”. Besides, instances of the SIT staff doing the operational work of investigation failing to prevent disappearance of an accused Minister, guarded by a dozen policemen, and later surfacing with anticipatory bail; accused in riots cases in the electoral posts declared as absconders attending meetings of public bodies; failure to collect additional evidence or recover incriminating material even from a few accused taken on remand; inadequate efforts to arrest absconders; and so on prompt one to conclude that many from State police throwing a spanner in the SIT investigation machine remain unchecked. This tendency of the saboteurs would become quite pronounced in the probe against the CM, unless urgent remedial measures are initiated. Removal of Gujarat police officers in the Jafri FIR from the SIT; freeing of those assisting the SIT from normal police duties and placing them under full control and authority of the Chairman SIT, on pattern of the Election Commission controlling the State officials during the elections; vesting the Chairman with the authority to initiate the Annual Confidential Repot of all officers assisting him in the SIT; move to the Central Govt. to appoint Special Prosecutors to conduct cases investigated by the SIT u/s 24 CRPC; action to permit the complainants of riots cases to keep their lawyers to present their cases alongwith the PPs; induction of officers with integrity and fortitude from outside Gujarat at the cutting edge level of investigation of riots cases, in the ranks of Police Sub Inspector, Inspector and Dy.S.P.; are a few instant exercises imperative for ensuring purposeful and result-oriented investigation of the Jafri FIR. Press reports indicate that the SIT so far had only informal discussions with the complainants. Neither their FIR was verified, nor statements recorded, nor fresh FIR registered in the Police station. Informal interaction is not recognized by the CRPC as part of enquiry or investigation. Thus one can deem that the action on Jafri FIR, on the Apex Courts orders, before a month, remains a non-starter. This fact throws up signals of despair and anguish for carnage victims. Indications are that the highly placed accused in the Jafri FIR are moving to ensure that the SIT will do sheer enquiry and not investigation on the Court orders and submit a report by July 2009. They, then, plan to contest adverse references, if any, in the SIT report and thereby avoid possibility of criminal prosecution. Delaying the process is another tactics. The accused will also convince the SIT and the Court to treat those numerous acts of omission and commission, which virtually facilitated and actualized the mass carnage in 2002, as routine unintentional administrative lapses calling for departmental action without criminal liability. This stance will make acts like, delay in imposition of curfew in Ahmedabad City on the VHP Bandh Day on 28th Feb., 2002 (When maximum killings in the riots took place) for facilitating parading of dead bodies of Godhra fire victims; non implementation of provisions of Gujarat Police Manual, Communal riots schemes and other instructions on control of communal riots; ignoring complaints of riot victims, appointment of the Sangh Parivar office-bearers as PPs to conduct cases against accused in anti-minority crimes etc; as plain predictable functional indiscretions !!!. The Court will also be assured of State Govt. initiating departmental action against the defaulters. This will give a safe burial of all litigations relating to the 2002 genocide. A brilliant defense!!! Capitalizing on the denial of justice to riot victims, the internationally organized Islamic jihadists, would redouble their efforts to recruit more dejected riot victims to their fold for pursuing terrorist objectives. Being fully confident about the proven eminence and integrity of the Chairman of the SIT, well meaning citizens are optimistic about positive move from the SIT, soon, against the planners and executioners of 2002 butchery of the innocents in Gujarat. R.B.Sreekumar is a former DGP - Gujarat, who stood upto Narendra Modi in the immediate aftermath of Gujarat carnage -- http://venukm.blogspot.com/ From kshmendra2005 at yahoo.com Sat Jun 13 15:00:20 2009 From: kshmendra2005 at yahoo.com (Kshmendra Kaul) Date: Sat, 13 Jun 2009 02:30:20 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Reader-list] Election Forecast Message-ID: <591129.50153.qm@web57205.mail.re3.yahoo.com> There are some practices that pre-date Islam (in terms of Quran-Mohammad) but found themselves 'sanctified' through the Quran and/or the reported words/practices of Mohammad. "Jaziya" is one such Practice/Law.   There are many explanations and interpretations given for "Jaziya" with respect to 'Non-Muslim individuals' and 'entities conquered through war or threatened with war'.   In current times, "Jaziya paid by Non-Muslims" could perhaps best be explained as being equivalent to "Zakaat paid by Muslims"   Kshmendra   --- On Fri, 6/12/09, S. Jabbar wrote: From: S. Jabbar Subject: Re: [Reader-list] Election Forecast To: "Vedavati Jogi" , "Rakesh Iyer" Cc: "Sarai" Date: Friday, June 12, 2009, 2:21 PM The people in the NWFP who imposed a tax on non-Muslims in the name of Islam are brigands.  They are also known collectively as the Taliban, a feared entity who have wreaked greater havoc on the lives of Muslims in the area. Jaziya is commonly and mistakenly seen as an inherent Islamic practice, a fundamental tenet of Islam, where in fact the Arabs simply continued the practice of levying a poll tax on subject races in their newly conquered territories.  The practice of poll tax was instituted by the Sassanid Empire, which ruled a vast swathe of land which included the Caucasus, Iraq, southern Central Asia, Iran and Afghanistan from 205 CE for 400 years, much before the birth of Islam.  The Sassanids, incidentally, were Zoroastrian, ancestors of the people we know as Parsis.  > From: Vedavati Jogi > Date: Wed, 20 May 2009 10:25:13 +0530 (IST) > To: Rakesh Iyer > Cc: > Subject: Re: [Reader-list] Election Forecast > > after reading secular mails on this readers list i am thoroughly convinced > that very soon india will be a muslim country because muslims are going to > outnumber hindus by 2050 and hindus will have to pay jizia (the way sikhs in > pakistan are paying)   ( unfortunately or fortunately )muslims don't > descriminate between seculars and others for them hindus are hindus and not > brahmins/dalits/marathas/seculars/communals etc. so all of us - you as well > as me will have to pay jizia.   be mentally ( and financially also) > prepared.   vedavati --- On Mon, 18/5/09, Rakesh Iyer > wrote: From: Rakesh Iyer > Subject: Re: [Reader-list] Election Forecast To: > "anupam chakravartty" Cc: "sarai list" > Date: Monday, 18 May, 2009, 5:20 PM Dear > Vedavati Before pointing fingers at others, look at oneself. Considering the > demand of Hindus like you, if BJP were to come to power (either as coalition > or on their own), the sword would be hanging on the head of the minorities as > to when their women would be raped, their children would be left > parent-less and when their lives would be destroyed. It's certainly good that > UPA has come to power, and now we have one less issue to focus upon (which > is minority rights), at least upto a certain extent. When the NDA was in > power, we had to focus on jokers like Praveen Togadia, Ashok Singhal, Acharya > Dharmendra, some more useless sadhus and mahants, and also Modi mania. > Unnecessarily at some point of time or other, there would be some nonsense > shilanyas and some daan or the other. At least under the UPA, such useless > antics are out. While Kandhamal, Karnataka and Mangalore indeed have taken > place, at least a widespread pogrom has not taken place. And as for > Bangladesh and Pakistan, thanks to Hindus like you, I can say comfortably that > if people like you were to come to power (in any party or form), we would > become a Hindu rashtra where our minorities would be living worse than second > class citizens. And you are not a secular anyway, and you are a Hindu. India > is secular not because Hindus are in majority. India is secular because > majority of the people live as a secular society does (irrespective of whether > they believe in secularism). They don't want conflicts for umpteen no. of > reasons. And they can see through the political game of our Hindutva and > fundamentalist Islamic friends. As for Muslim nations which are secular, go > to Turkey, Indonesia and Malaysia. Regards Rakesh PS: I wonder where our > Modi bhai is, now that results are out for the general election. Everybody is > talking about Advani not talking to media. Seems Modi is another version of > Advani. When things are going against him, he is the first one (like Advani) > to hide and run away. And he is supposedly the 'next PM' candidate of BJP in > 2014. Jaisa Guru, waisa chela........jai > ho!! _________________________________________ reader-list: an open discussion > list on media and the city. Critiques & Collaborations To subscribe: send an > email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with subscribe in the subject > header. To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> > Cricket on your mind? Visit the ultimate cricket website. Enter > http://beta.cricket.yahoo.com _________________________________________ reader > -list: an open discussion list on media and the city. Critiques & > Collaborations To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net > with subscribe in the subject header. To unsubscribe: > https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list List archive: > <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> _________________________________________ reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. Critiques & Collaborations To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with subscribe in the subject header. To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> From kauladityaraj at gmail.com Sat Jun 13 15:18:09 2009 From: kauladityaraj at gmail.com (Aditya Raj Kaul) Date: Sat, 13 Jun 2009 15:18:09 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Justice for Nilofer and Asiya Message-ID: <6353c690906130248u6b7d48a7ybcbce18e4bb45f03@mail.gmail.com> Justice for Nilofer and Asiya *Visit *- http://kashmiris-in-exile.blogspot.com/2009/06/justice-for-nilofer-and-asiya.html Shopian looks like a ghost town today. There are no people on the streets. The shops are shut wide and the atmosphere of gloom looms large over an otherwise bustling suburb. The rape and murder of two young women has left the town full of bitterness, anger and hopelessness. There obviously are no two ways about the fact that the ghastly murder and rape should invite severest possible criticism with a strong call for finding the perpetrators of this heinous crime and punishing them in a manner as to make an example of them. But here we are. The young prince dismissed their rape and killing as a simple case of drowning. As a Chief Minister of the State shouldn’t he have been a little more prudent than this clownish dad. He should have at-least bothered to know the depth of the water in Rembyaer Nallah in this season. As someone who has crossed this Nallah even without his knees getting wet I must say that the Chief Minister was at his apathetic and ignorant best. Little did he realise that a man as perverse as Yasin Malik or Bitta Karate is roaming free to commit more crimes. The day the badly bruised bodies of Nilofer and Asiya were recovered, they bore marks of what seemed like molestation if not rape. Their clothes were torn and bodies disfigured. Yet the Police dismissed it as a case of drowning. Forensic reports now confirm the rape of a pregnant Nilofer and a studious and intelligent Asiya. *Two grown up women drowning in knee deep water! * This led to huge protests all over the valley. A simple word of acceptance of the crimecould have avoided all that happened later. The separatists were quick to latch on some food. After all the Young Prince had given them a stick to beat with which they could beat him, the army, the establishment and India. The beastly Mehbooba wasn’t the one to be left behind. Despite the fact that her party-men were beaten on way to Shopian, she looked at it as opportunity she was in no mood to let go off. The sexually frustrated Asiya Andrabi too took to streets with her band of Dark Scary Images. *The calls for justice soon got lost in the din of cries for Azadi and removal for AFSPA. * This obviously is no time for politicking. Unequivocally we condemn the State governments handling of this entire episode. What was ideally a law an order problem has now spun into a huge controversy thanks to the kid who our National Media projects as the best thing to have happened to India after the birth of Mahatma Gandhi. Apart from firing the SP of Shopian(who obviously deserves to be fired) the Chief Minister should also have resigned for the way he led Kashmir to one more crisis. *Nilofer’s husband, Shakeel Ahmed has said time and again that he wants justice and not Azadi. Unfortunately what he gets is denials and more denials and now an enquiry commission. The State ought to show its concern for its people irrespective of their political alignments. But then that virtue is lost long time back.* *In this hour of grief we are with the family of the victims. May God give them power to overcome this grief .We at Roots in Kashmir will do our best to ensure that the family gets justice. Although we are in exile,yet we mourn alongside the family of the victims. The need of the hour is that the Chief Minister personally meets the family and apologises for his errant comments and asks the commission to submit a report in a time bound manner and then act fast to punish the culprits of this sick crime. It may not bring them their dear ones back but at-least it would restore the confidence of the people in the State. * *pls do leave your comments here - http://kashmiris-in-exile.blogspot.com/2009/06/justice-for-nilofer-and-asiya.html * *thanks* *Aditya Raj Kaul* From kshmendra2005 at yahoo.com Sat Jun 13 15:51:38 2009 From: kshmendra2005 at yahoo.com (Kshmendra Kaul) Date: Sat, 13 Jun 2009 03:21:38 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Reader-list] Anil Chawla's response to Kulkarni's "Hindu Divided Family" Message-ID: <323279.70393.qm@web57205.mail.re3.yahoo.com> Dear Rajendra   It would do the BJP good if they took on board seriously the points made by Kulkarni instead of taking the "these are just the private views of journalist".   In what little I saw of Jaswant Singh's interview by Barkha Dutt on NDTV, he makes some points similar to Kulkarni's.   Brijesh Mishra has been more forthright in saying that BJP should have denied a ticket to Varun Gandhi.   All that Anil Chawla has done is to question the shifting ideological loyalties of Kulkarni and indulge in a diatribe against Advani and his 'coterie'. Chawla has not questioned the validity of the points made by Kulkarni.   Kshmendra   --- On Fri, 6/12/09, Rajendra Bhat Uppinangadi wrote: From: Rajendra Bhat Uppinangadi Subject: Re: [Reader-list] Anil Chawla's response to Kulkarni's "Hindu Divided Family" To: "Kshmendra Kaul" Cc: "sarai list" Date: Friday, June 12, 2009, 1:03 PM Dear Kshemendra,   the reply posted by you from Mr. Anil Chawla is  worthwhile read material to understand different aspects of the election results and the position of BJP.While success has many claimants, failure is a bastard, and when BJP had only two seats in parliament, the rise to higher levels was only thanks to mobilisation of the societal votes by the Rathyathra, by LK, who is a good organiser, but a bad leader. Thanks to sober presence of Atalji, his acceptablity to all was the saving grace. Jaswanth Singh and Rajnathsingh are two misfits who are adorning the high places with ulterior gains as the intent, as we see them with their utterances.Jaswanth who has no vote base, Rajnath who can not have any say in UP are the misfits as national leaders.      Advani as leader has failed miserably, as he has no control over the issues such as the handling of second rung leadership. Even as Dy. PM, his performance as administrator is woefully wanting, as six years is too long a period for a home minister to prove his good intentions, he kept away from all ticlish issues, such as re-settlement of kashmiri refugess in Delhi camps, facilitation of dispute of disputed land row at Ayodhya, as he did not have any initiative he is seen as every one as a bussinessman, sindhi, who is keen on profits but not on capital.! Thu, Jun 11, 2009 at 3:02 PM, Kshmendra Kaul wrote: Tuesday, June 9, 2009   Dear friend,   Namaskar,   Sudheendra Kulkarni, who currently works as an aide to Mr. LK Advani, is an old friend. In 1975, both of us joined IIT Bombay for B.Tech. A couple of days back Sudheendra wrote an article "Hindu Divided Family", which you may read at http://www.tehelka.com/story_main42.asp?filename=Ne130609hindu_divided.asp   Sudheendra's article has drawn considerable attention in media. I am replying to Sudheendra in an open letter discussing the role of Mr. Advani in BJP and also the defeat of BJP in recent elections.   The enclosed open letter to Sudheendra  is about 2000 words. Please read it and send me your comments.   With Best Wishes and Regards,   Anil Chawla  - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -   Dear Sudheendra,   I have just read your "deeply introspective essay" on tehelka.com about BJP's defeat in recent elections. The article is described as introspective, but I failed to find anything that could be called introspection by any stretch of imagination. True, you say that "I too carry my share of responsibility", but that is more courteous than introspective.   All through the essay, you look upon BJP as a patient lying on an operating table and your role as that of an outsider trying to see all that has gone wrong. The patient is being blamed for all that has gone wrong, without in any way blaming either the virus or the team of doctors who have brought the patient to the present critical state.   Please pardon me for being direct and on the face. I guess as a former classmate I can take this freedom. I campaigned for Janata Party in 1977 elections. Ever since then I have been in and around the party (JP/BJP) working at various levels. Sure enough, I have not been an aide to Mr. LK Advani (LK) like you have been. Both of us began dabbling in public life together at IIT Bombay. I have spent more than three decades in close proximity with BJP and RSS without ever being offered a post. I am not alone. There are thousands like me who have served in their own humble way. What has always surprised me is that someone like you who was a committed fulltime communist for almost two decades, suddenly did an ideological somersault and landed up straight in the top rungs of BJP. When you are in mood for some introspection, please do think about this. Probably, the roots to the present malaise in BJP can be traced to your own personal journey.   When a communist suddenly becomes an ideologue for a party like BJP, there is bound to be skepticism and even some ridicule. It becomes imperative on the neo-convert to prove that there has been a genuine transformation of the soul and not just a change of coat. Even if the neo-convert does manage to prove his credentials, there is no way that he should ever be allowed to rule over the heads of people who have devoted their life to the cause. In your case, (a) you have never proved that you have really changed and (b) you actually landed up on top of the ranks in a manner that is most inexplicable. I say that you have not been able to prove your credentials because I have read some of your articles and I can say with a fair level of confidence that you remain at heart a communist who is trying to put on the camouflage of a Hindu.   Dear Sudheendra, I have nothing against you personally. Your appointment as National Executive member of BJP, at the time of your joining BJP, and later as Prime Minister's key aide had pleased me enormously. One always likes to see old friends in positions of power. The problem is that your case is not an isolated one, but a representative one. There are many in Delhi and Mumbai who have been able to gain access to LK's coterie by hook or by crook and it is these who now rule over BJP.   When you analyze BJP and RSS with a cold surgeon like approach, you ignore the role that LK's family and coterie has come to play in the party. Elections of 2009 were not fought by BJP against Congress, but were reduced by LK and his gang to a war by LK against one and all. The party has been systematically hijacked and decimated over the past decade and a half by LK's coterie. You just need to look at the campaign material prepared by the party for the recent elections. There is only one face -- LK's. Even Atal ji was not considered worthy of being put on the hoardings and posters. Congress gained mileage from photographs of Gandhi and Nehru decades after their deaths. Communists continue to revere Lenin and Stalin till today. Contrast this with the way LK and his war team dumped Atal ji most discourteously even though he is alive and continues to be revered by millions in the country.   You say that the BJP leadership is in disarray. If it is true, the only person who is responsible for the mess in the party is LK and no one else. He has ruled over the party with an iron hand for more than two decades. In fact, the words "Majboot Neta" (Strong Leader) that were used to describe LK during the recent election, apply only in respect of the way LK behaves in the matter of crushing his critics and opponents within the party. He is ruthless in demolishing anyone who as much as raises an eyebrow against him. He has no patience for anyone who even dreams of being his equal within the party. Can you please name for me two people who are LK's equals within BJP, in LK's vision? LK's desire to stand as a tallest leader made him choose only pygmies for all critical positions in the party. The only way that one could rise up in BJP with LK at helm was to act as a subservient spineless dwarf.   The problem with dwarfs is that while they are very good for boosting one's ego, they have limited use when one faces a war-like situation. In the recent elections, LK decided to fight it all alone. LK and his family and coterie thought that their rag-tag army of laptop professionals could substitute for the well-oiled and tested machinery of BJP, ABVP and RSS. The irony is that the blame for the defeat is now being put on the doors of the organizations that were treated most shabbily when LK and his team were dreaming of victory. LK and his team are now complaining that no one from BJP top leadership stood up to defend him when he was under attack. The fact is that among BJP leadership, the ones who command any stature were always ignored, attacked and pushed to the sideline by LK and his gang. So when LK came under attack he looked around for support and found none. Of course, there were many rats who were raising their feeble voices in his support. Unfortunately, the voices of rats do not count. This is something that LK should have thought before he appointed rats in all the key positions.   You talk about the party's social base. Did LK do anything in this regard during the past five years? The answer is an emphatic NO. When LK did his last ‘yatra' before 2004 elections, a photograph of his starting point was circulated. It showed LK standing with his daughter and wife. There were no BJP leaders on the dais. LK defended the presence of his family by saying that he drew strength from them. This is the root of the problem. In the past decade or so, LK stopped drawing strength from the party or Sangh parivar, and started leaning on his personal family ignoring the larger family to which small humble persons like me belong and from where we draw our strength. LK saw the party and Sangh pariwar as a tool to achieve his personal ambition at all costs. In the past decade, LK's focus was on building his personal image, his family strengths, his mafia-like grip on the party. The thought of getting or building leaders who command or could potentially command respect in various social groups seems to have been far removed from LK's mind.   I attended the function at Bhopal of LK's unveiling of his autobiography in Hindi. What an unabashed projection by a person who has no achievements worth mentioning even in one paragraph! Future historians will mention LK as a classic example of a person who had illusions of grandeur. They will write that he was a manipulator who was ruthless to independent thought within his party and rose by methods that ruined the party. Having said that they would probably add - he saw films and wrote two eminently forgettable autobiographies. What else is there to mention about LK's lifetime achievements? Are there any articles / books written by him on social-political issues? At least I am not aware of any. He is a self-centered person who cannot see beyond himself and his interests. If he puts pen on paper it is to describe his own self because that is all that he can ever see. If he talks about Hinduism / Hindutwa or any political ideology or national issues, it sounds hollow because he has never applied his mind to anything except his own interests, his family, his career, his ambitions, his dreams etc.   You might respond by saying that all politicians today are like that. You would probably be right on that. But then they know that they are run-of-the-mill politicians with no illusions of being grand strong leaders. If LK had realized his own limitations, he would not have tried to fashion 2009 elections as an exercise to elect him as the prime minister. The worst thing that happened in 2004 and 2009 elections is that the BJP, under the influence of LK, did not use the elections as an exercise to take party's ideology forward. In days of Jansangh, when it used to be absolutely clear that there was no possibility of winning, the party would still fight. In those days, it used to be clear that fighting an election was an opportunity to propagate our ideology and thoughts to a bigger audience. In the 2009 election, the campaign was focused only on the persona of LK ignoring even the party's manifesto.   As an old hand of the broad ideological historical process that I call as Hindu nationalistic movement, I have no serious regrets about BJP losing 2004 or 2009 elections. But I do regret that the party which was making an attempt in its initial years to define a new vision for Ekatm Manavwad (translated by me as Monistic Humanism) lost way. I regret that instead of focusing on issues and ideas the party focused on an individual. I regret that the party for whom thousands shed blood and lives became a tool in the hands of some who want to live a seven-star lifestyle. I regret that personal ambitions and aspirations of one man became the focus of many organizations that are known for the sacrifices of their leaders.   Dear Sudheendra, I agree with you wholeheartedly when you say, "The BJP can indeed bounce back. But it can do so only if it first renews and empowers itself comprehensively -- in its ideology, its geographical-social spread, its own political strength, its mass activity, its alliance-building, its cadre-based organizational network, and its leadership". The difference is in approach. While you would like to probably do it with LK and his cronies at the helm, I shall like Sangh pariwar to put the dark days of LK and his cronies behind.   Sangh leadership must act to decisively purge BJP of LK and his individual-centered style of working. Competence and not loyalty to this or that individual must be the criterion for all appointments. Ideology must take centre-stage once again and those who can help with defining and clarifying ideological issues should be in key positions and not sycophants or moneybags.   I am making this letter public because I think that the issues that are discussed here are very important and need a wider debate. Of course, I know that this will put me at the risk of harsh retaliatory action by LK and his coterie. I guess that I have to take this risk in wider national interest. I hope I can count on you as an old friend if the action turns nasty.   With Best Wishes and Regards,   Anil Chawla   www.hindustanstudies.com www.samarthbharat.com www.indialegalhelp.com   http://groups.google.com/group/soc.culture.indian/msg/eb5d518cb3a23927   _________________________________________ reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. Critiques & Collaborations To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with subscribe in the subject header. To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list List archive: -- Rajen. From rajen786uppinangady at gmail.com Sat Jun 13 17:21:07 2009 From: rajen786uppinangady at gmail.com (Rajendra Bhat Uppinangadi) Date: Sat, 13 Jun 2009 17:21:07 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Anil Chawla's response to Kulkarni's "Hindu Divided Family" In-Reply-To: <323279.70393.qm@web57205.mail.re3.yahoo.com> References: <323279.70393.qm@web57205.mail.re3.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <7271ec560906130451n1b6834afvbc47dcdf553939d7@mail.gmail.com> Kshemendra, it is true that the views are expressed by Chawla are a sort of indirect attack on idealogy of Kulakarni, but both the aspects are two different perspectives of the idealogy of BJP and are proving to be not very accurate as the party itself is undecided on what it calls as hinduthva in practice. The confusion is more confounded by the "hard " and sofy varieties of being hindu, again a contradiction, as in secular democratic life, the religion has no place in good governance, good governance again has to to be inclusive of all the citizens and can not be discriminatory, in a way the BJP is getting congressized in its inner party functional aspects with a coterie being powerful and at a cost to the well being of the party Operation Kamala, in Karnataka has done more damage to the party as all dort of discards and some powerful fuedal lords have found new life in the party, in the long run, the loyal party worker is getting frustrated at this bad development of using the party for discards from other political outfits and also blatant display of wealth by mining lords.! Regards, Rajen. On Sat, Jun 13, 2009 at 3:51 PM, Kshmendra Kaul wrote: > Dear Rajendra > > It would do the BJP good if they took on board seriously the points made by > Kulkarni instead of taking the "these are just the private views > of journalist". > > In what little I saw of Jaswant Singh's interview by Barkha Dutt on NDTV, > he makes some points similar to Kulkarni's. > > Brijesh Mishra has been more forthright in saying that BJP should have > denied a ticket to Varun Gandhi. > > All that Anil Chawla has done is to question the shifting ideological > loyalties of Kulkarni and indulge in a diatribe against Advani and his > 'coterie'. Chawla has not questioned the validity of the points made by > Kulkarni. > > Kshmendra > > --- On *Fri, 6/12/09, Rajendra Bhat Uppinangadi < > rajen786uppinangady at gmail.com>* wrote: > > > From: Rajendra Bhat Uppinangadi > Subject: Re: [Reader-list] Anil Chawla's response to Kulkarni's "Hindu > Divided Family" > To: "Kshmendra Kaul" > Cc: "sarai list" > Date: Friday, June 12, 2009, 1:03 PM > > > Dear Kshemendra, > > the reply posted by you from Mr. Anil Chawla is worthwhile read material > to understand different aspects of the election results and the position of > BJP.While success has many claimants, failure is a bastard, and when BJP had > only two seats in parliament, the rise to higher levels was only thanks to > mobilisation of the societal votes by the Rathyathra, by LK, who is a good > organiser, but a bad leader. Thanks to sober presence of Atalji, his > acceptablity to all was the saving grace. Jaswanth Singh and Rajnathsingh > are two misfits who are adorning the high places with ulterior gains as the > intent, as we see them with their utterances.Jaswanth who has no vote base, > Rajnath who can not have any say in UP are the misfits as national leaders. > > > Advani as leader has failed miserably, as he has no control over the > issues such as the handling of second rung leadership. Even as Dy. PM, his > performance as administrator is woefully wanting, as six years is too long a > period for a home minister to prove his good intentions, he kept away from > all ticlish issues, such as re-settlement of kashmiri refugess in Delhi > camps, facilitation of dispute of disputed land row at Ayodhya, as he did > not have any initiative he is seen as every one as a bussinessman, sindhi, > who is keen on profits but not on capital.! > > > Thu, Jun 11, 2009 at 3:02 PM, Kshmendra Kaul > > wrote: > >> Tuesday, June 9, 2009 >> >> Dear friend, >> >> Namaskar, >> >> Sudheendra Kulkarni, who currently works as an aide to Mr. LK Advani, >> is an old friend. In 1975, both of us joined IIT Bombay for B.Tech. A >> couple of days back Sudheendra wrote an article "Hindu Divided >> Family", which you may read at >> >> http://www.tehelka.com/story_main42.asp?filename=Ne130609hindu_divided.asp >> >> Sudheendra's article has drawn considerable attention in media. I am >> replying to Sudheendra in an open letter discussing the role of Mr. >> Advani in BJP and also the defeat of BJP in recent elections. >> >> The enclosed open letter to Sudheendra is about 2000 words. Please >> read it and send me your comments. >> >> With Best Wishes and Regards, >> >> Anil Chawla >> >> - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - >> >> >> Dear Sudheendra, >> >> I have just read your "deeply introspective essay" on tehelka.com >> about BJP's defeat in recent elections. The article is described as >> introspective, but I failed to find anything that could be called >> introspection by any stretch of imagination. True, you say that "I >> too carry my share of responsibility", but that is more courteous >> than introspective. >> >> >> All through the essay, you look upon BJP as a patient lying on an >> operating table and your role as that of an outsider trying to see >> all that has gone wrong. The patient is being blamed for all that has >> gone wrong, without in any way blaming either the virus or the team >> of doctors who have brought the patient to the present critical >> state. >> >> >> Please pardon me for being direct and on the face. I guess as a >> former classmate I can take this freedom. I campaigned for Janata >> Party in 1977 elections. Ever since then I have been in and around >> the party (JP/BJP) working at various levels. Sure enough, I have not >> been an aide to Mr. LK Advani (LK) like you have been. Both of us >> began dabbling in public life together at IIT Bombay. I have spent >> more than three decades in close proximity with BJP and RSS without >> ever being offered a post. I am not alone. There are thousands like >> me who have served in their own humble way. What has always surprised >> me is that someone like you who was a committed fulltime communist >> for almost two decades, suddenly did an ideological somersault and >> landed up straight in the top rungs of BJP. When you are in mood for >> some introspection, please do think about this. Probably, the roots >> to the present malaise in BJP can be traced to your own personal >> journey. >> >> >> When a communist suddenly becomes an ideologue for a party like BJP, >> there is bound to be skepticism and even some ridicule. It becomes >> imperative on the neo-convert to prove that there has been a genuine >> transformation of the soul and not just a change of coat. Even if the >> neo-convert does manage to prove his credentials, there is no way >> that he should ever be allowed to rule over the heads of people who >> have devoted their life to the cause. In your case, (a) you have >> never proved that you have really changed and (b) you actually landed >> up on top of the ranks in a manner that is most inexplicable. I say >> that you have not been able to prove your credentials because I have >> read some of your articles and I can say with a fair level of >> confidence that you remain at heart a communist who is trying to put >> on the camouflage of a Hindu. >> >> >> Dear Sudheendra, I have nothing against you personally. Your >> appointment as National Executive member of BJP, at the time of your >> joining BJP, and later as Prime Minister's key aide had pleased me >> enormously. One always likes to see old friends in positions of >> power. The problem is that your case is not an isolated one, but a >> representative one. There are many in Delhi and Mumbai who have been >> able to gain access to LK's coterie by hook or by crook and it is >> these who now rule over BJP. >> >> >> When you analyze BJP and RSS with a cold surgeon like approach, you >> ignore the role that LK's family and coterie has come to play in the >> party. Elections of 2009 were not fought by BJP against Congress, but >> were reduced by LK and his gang to a war by LK against one and all. >> The party has been systematically hijacked and decimated over the >> past decade and a half by LK's coterie. You just need to look at the >> campaign material prepared by the party for the recent elections. >> There is only one face -- LK's. Even Atal ji was not considered worthy >> of being put on the hoardings and posters. Congress gained mileage >> from photographs of Gandhi and Nehru decades after their deaths. >> Communists continue to revere Lenin and Stalin till today. Contrast >> this with the way LK and his war team dumped Atal ji most >> discourteously even though he is alive and continues to be revered by >> millions in the country. >> >> >> You say that the BJP leadership is in disarray. If it is true, the >> only person who is responsible for the mess in the party is LK and no >> one else. He has ruled over the party with an iron hand for more than >> two decades. In fact, the words "Majboot Neta" (Strong Leader) that >> were used to describe LK during the recent election, apply only in >> respect of the way LK behaves in the matter of crushing his critics >> and opponents within the party. He is ruthless in demolishing anyone >> who as much as raises an eyebrow against him. He has no patience for >> anyone who even dreams of being his equal within the party. Can you >> please name for me two people who are LK's equals within BJP, in LK's >> vision? LK's desire to stand as a tallest leader made him choose only >> pygmies for all critical positions in the party. The only way that >> one could rise up in BJP with LK at helm was to act as a subservient >> spineless dwarf. >> >> >> The problem with dwarfs is that while they are very good for boosting >> one's ego, they have limited use when one faces a war-like situation. >> In the recent elections, LK decided to fight it all alone. LK and his >> family and coterie thought that their rag-tag army of laptop >> professionals could substitute for the well-oiled and tested >> machinery of BJP, ABVP and RSS. The irony is that the blame for the >> defeat is now being put on the doors of the organizations that were >> treated most shabbily when LK and his team were dreaming of victory. >> LK and his team are now complaining that no one from BJP top >> leadership stood up to defend him when he was under attack. The fact >> is that among BJP leadership, the ones who command any stature were >> always ignored, attacked and pushed to the sideline by LK and his >> gang. So when LK came under attack he looked around for support and >> found none. Of course, there were many rats who were raising their >> feeble voices in his support. Unfortunately, the voices of rats do >> not count. This is something that LK should have thought before he >> appointed rats in all the key positions. >> >> >> You talk about the party's social base. Did LK do anything in this >> regard during the past five years? The answer is an emphatic NO. When >> LK did his last ‘yatra' before 2004 elections, a photograph of his >> starting point was circulated. It showed LK standing with his >> daughter and wife. There were no BJP leaders on the dais. LK defended >> the presence of his family by saying that he drew strength from them. >> This is the root of the problem. In the past decade or so, LK stopped >> drawing strength from the party or Sangh parivar, and started leaning >> on his personal family ignoring the larger family to which small >> humble persons like me belong and from where we draw our strength. LK >> saw the party and Sangh pariwar as a tool to achieve his personal >> ambition at all costs. In the past decade, LK's focus was on building >> his personal image, his family strengths, his mafia-like grip on the >> party. The thought of getting or building leaders who command or >> could potentially command respect in various social groups seems to >> have been far removed from LK's mind. >> >> >> I attended the function at Bhopal of LK's unveiling of his >> autobiography in Hindi. What an unabashed projection by a person who >> has no achievements worth mentioning even in one paragraph! Future >> historians will mention LK as a classic example of a person who had >> illusions of grandeur. They will write that he was a manipulator who >> was ruthless to independent thought within his party and rose by >> methods that ruined the party. Having said that they would probably >> add - he saw films and wrote two eminently forgettable >> autobiographies. What else is there to mention about LK's lifetime >> achievements? Are there any articles / books written by him on >> social-political issues? At least I am not aware of any. He is a >> self-centered person who cannot see beyond himself and his interests. >> If he puts pen on paper it is to describe his own self because that >> is all that he can ever see. If he talks about Hinduism / Hindutwa or >> any political ideology or national issues, it sounds hollow because >> he has never applied his mind to anything except his own interests, >> his family, his career, his ambitions, his dreams etc. >> >> >> You might respond by saying that all politicians today are like that. >> You would probably be right on that. But then they know that they are >> run-of-the-mill politicians with no illusions of being grand strong >> leaders. If LK had realized his own limitations, he would not have >> tried to fashion 2009 elections as an exercise to elect him as the >> prime minister. The worst thing that happened in 2004 and 2009 >> elections is that the BJP, under the influence of LK, did not use the >> elections as an exercise to take party's ideology forward. In days of >> Jansangh, when it used to be absolutely clear that there was no >> possibility of winning, the party would still fight. In those days, >> it used to be clear that fighting an election was an opportunity to >> propagate our ideology and thoughts to a bigger audience. In the 2009 >> election, the campaign was focused only on the persona of LK ignoring >> even the party's manifesto. >> >> >> As an old hand of the broad ideological historical process that I >> call as Hindu nationalistic movement, I have no serious regrets about >> BJP losing 2004 or 2009 elections. But I do regret that the party >> which was making an attempt in its initial years to define a new >> vision for Ekatm Manavwad (translated by me as Monistic Humanism) >> lost way. I regret that instead of focusing on issues and ideas the >> party focused on an individual. I regret that the party for whom >> thousands shed blood and lives became a tool in the hands of some who >> want to live a seven-star lifestyle. I regret that personal ambitions >> and aspirations of one man became the focus of many organizations >> that are known for the sacrifices of their leaders. >> >> >> Dear Sudheendra, I agree with you wholeheartedly when you say, "The >> BJP can indeed bounce back. But it can do so only if it first renews >> and empowers itself comprehensively -- in its ideology, its >> geographical-social spread, its own political strength, its mass >> activity, its alliance-building, its cadre-based organizational >> network, and its leadership". The difference is in approach. While >> you would like to probably do it with LK and his cronies at the helm, >> I shall like Sangh pariwar to put the dark days of LK and his cronies >> behind. >> >> >> Sangh leadership must act to decisively purge BJP of LK and his >> individual-centered style of working. Competence and not loyalty to >> this or that individual must be the criterion for all appointments. >> Ideology must take centre-stage once again and those who can help >> with defining and clarifying ideological issues should be in key >> positions and not sycophants or moneybags. >> >> >> I am making this letter public because I think that the issues that >> are discussed here are very important and need a wider debate. Of >> course, I know that this will put me at the risk of harsh retaliatory >> action by LK and his coterie. I guess that I have to take this risk >> in wider national interest. I hope I can count on you as an old >> friend if the action turns nasty. >> >> >> With Best Wishes and Regards, >> >> >> Anil Chawla >> >> >> www.hindustanstudies.com >> www.samarthbharat.com >> www.indialegalhelp.com >> >> >> http://groups.google.com/group/soc.culture.indian/msg/eb5d518cb3a23927 >> >> >> >> >> _________________________________________ >> reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. >> Critiques & Collaborations >> To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.netwith subscribe in the subject header. >> To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list >> List archive: > > > > > -- > Rajen. > > > -- Rajen. From 2tahamehmood at googlemail.com Sat Jun 13 17:23:54 2009 From: 2tahamehmood at googlemail.com (Taha Mehmood) Date: Sat, 13 Jun 2009 12:53:54 +0100 Subject: [Reader-list] News Items posted on the net on Multipurpose National Identity Cards-127 Message-ID: <65be9bf40906130453k4bb32795p8241280e016f028b@mail.gmail.com> http://www.kalingatimes.com/odisha_news/news2009/20090612_Coastal_security_cards_likely_in_Kendrapara_district.htm Coastal security cards likely in Kendrapara district By Manoj Kar Kendrapara, June 12: To thwart infiltration and sea route threat to national security, the coastal villages of Kendrapara district are being covered under a comprehensive survey with issuance of multi-purpose identity cards to the settlers. It's a massive exercise of the Central government to intensify vigil on coastal villagers in the wake of 26/11 terror attack in Mumbai. The administrative machineries are being geared up for scheduled commencement of the exercise in July and it would come to an end in January 2010, according to official sources. As many as 97 seaside villages are being taken up survey next month strictly in accordance with Central government guidelines. While 55 villages of Rajnagar tehsil would come under the project, 41 human settlements are earmarked for next month's survey work. A lone village under Rajkanika tehsil is also coming under multi-purpose identity card project, said Ranjan Kumar Das, Kendrapara Sub-collector, who recently attended a conference of district collectors from country's coastal zones. Both Rajnagar and Mahakalpada tehsils are widely regarded as the epicenter of unlawful settlement of Bangladeshis. A total of 1677 Bangla infiltrators are still firmly ensconced in these areas as per official enumeration while unofficial statistics put the number at more than 50,000. Of these officially enumerated foreign nationals, 1551 Bangladeshis had faced Quit India notice on 15 January 20005. But the deportation notice was put on hold on alleged charge of erroneous enumeration. The ambitious coastal security project is being jointly implemented by the Census Directorate and the union Home Department. The Sub Collector said that enumerators would gather wide-ranging details of settlers of these coastal villages. The information-sheet will contain among things the genealogical order of the family, their nativity status of family, including the finger prints of those above the age of 15. It could be used as a multi-purpose ID card instead of the existing voter ID card. All people in the coastal areas, including those who are not residing on a permanent basis, foreigners and those from outside areas, will be included in the survey, said officials. Official sources said the population of around 3 lakh people in 97 thickly populated coastal villages in will be covered under the Central government's unique identity card scheme by 2010. "As the project is of paramount national importance, we are laying emphasis on its timely commencement of completion. The enumerators would be trained on the pros and cons of the project. Then houses in coastal villages listed and numbered" said Das. This unique National Identity Number' will be assigned to each individual including those below 18 years of age. This number will become a link number' with any other application of the state government. From kauladityaraj at gmail.com Sat Jun 13 17:29:56 2009 From: kauladityaraj at gmail.com (Aditya Raj Kaul) Date: Sat, 13 Jun 2009 17:29:56 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] =?windows-1252?q?Burns=92s_remarks_on_Kashmir_flaye?= =?windows-1252?q?d?= Message-ID: <6353c690906130459nb3e79dme52229a6ccc9c316@mail.gmail.com> The Tribune, Chandigarh Burns’s remarks on Kashmir flayed *Tribune News Service* Jammu, June 12 Dr. Agnishekhar and Ashwani Kumar Chrungoo, co-chairpersons of The Panun Kashmir, organisation of Kashmiri Pandits, expressed concern over the statement issued by US under secretary of state William Burns regarding the Kashmir imbroglio. His statement that the Indian government should take into account the wishes of the Kashmiri people in the resolution of Kashmir issue is tantamount to undue interference in the affairs of a sovereign State like India. It is negation of the UN secretary general’s view that the resolution of UNO regarding Kashmir is now irrelevant.Instead of making Pakistan accountable to the world community in context of terrorist crimes, grave human rights violations, involvement in drugs and weapons trade, nourishing fundamentalist ideology and mushrooming of terror camps on its soil, the US has taken a “dramatic shift” from its stated position on all these issues. This shift in its position will give rise to escalation of violence in the state of Jammu and Kashmir and further delay establishment of peace in the region, particularly when the Secretary of State of US is supposed to visit this region. Dr. Agnishekhar said: "Any undue interference by a third party in the issues of bilateral concern between India and Pakistan is in violation of the Shimla Agreement and the Agreement reached thereafter between India and Pakistan. The India is committed to the unanimous Resolution passed by Parliament in 1994 that the J & K State as it existed in August 1947 is a part of Indian and the issue regarding the areas of Jammu and Kashmir occupied by Pakistan is the only issue of discussion with Pakistan." From 2tahamehmood at googlemail.com Sat Jun 13 17:34:53 2009 From: 2tahamehmood at googlemail.com (Taha Mehmood) Date: Sat, 13 Jun 2009 13:04:53 +0100 Subject: [Reader-list] MNIC: Parliament Questions - 22 Message-ID: <65be9bf40906130504q35534e50vcaf16496ba6d0511@mail.gmail.com> http://164.100.47.132/psearch/QResult13.aspx?qref=1273 GOVERNMENT OF INDIA MINISTRY OF HOME AFFAIRS LOK SABHA UNSTARRED QUESTION NO 1958 ANSWERED ON 07.03.2000 NATIONAL IDENTITY CARDS 1958 . Dr. RAGHUVANSH PRASAD SINGH KANTI SINGH (a) whether the Government have received the feasibility report on the issue of Multi-Purpose National Identity Cards throughout the country ; (b) if so, the details thereof ; and (b) if not , the reasons therefor ? ANSWER MINISTER OF STATE IN THE MINISTRY OF HOME AFFAIRS ( SHRI I .D.SWAMI) (a) to (c) : No, Sir. The task of preparing the Feasibility Report was entrusted to a professional consultancy firm in October, 1999. The Feasibility Report is expected shortly. From arshad.mcrc at gmail.com Sat Jun 13 17:45:54 2009 From: arshad.mcrc at gmail.com (arshad amanullah) Date: Sat, 13 Jun 2009 17:45:54 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Pasmanda Intellectuals' Forum Questions the selection process of the Vice-Chancellor (VC) of the Jamia Milia Islamiya University (JMI), New Delhi Message-ID: <2076f31d0906130515s2ade1267m62041ce7b884b93c@mail.gmail.com> [With apologies for X-posting] An Open Letter to the President Ms. Pratibha Patil The last two decades in Indian democracy have witnessed wider acknowledgement and interrogation of the disproportionate hegemony of upper castes in the structures of power. Quite clearly such overt domination of a few elite oligarchic caste groups in decision making processes runs against the pluralist and democratic ambitions of the Indian Constitution. The persistence of such trends does not augur well for the future of this nation. The legitimacy of the category of caste in non-Hindu (minority) communities is now officially established. The inclusion of 82 Muslim caste groups in the OBC list of the Mandal Commission Report in 1990 was a watershed event in this context. The presence of caste in Muslim community is also reaffirmed by the recent Sachhar Committee Report and the report of the Ranganath Mishra Commission on Linguistic Minorities. Moreover, apart from the official recognition there is a strong movement among the dalit/backward caste Muslims that is gaining ground in North India (especially UP and Bihar). The movement is called the ‘Pasmanda Movement’ and it is articulating the anxiety and anger of the Pasmanda Muslim sections over their blatant social exclusion. It must be borne in mind that the Pasmanda Muslims (dalit/backward caste Muslims; also called ajlaf and arzal) constitute about 75% of the Indian Muslim population (the remaining 25% is formed by the upper caste ashraf Muslims). The politics of numeric should itself suffice to suggest that their claims can not be taken lightly. The marginalisation of Pasmanda Muslims from state and community-controlle d institutions is an issue that perhaps needs to be urgently addressed. In this context, the recent reports about the selection process of the Vice-Chancellor (VC) of the Jamia Milia Islamiya University (JMI), New Delhi have once again disappointed the Pasmanda Muslim sections. In historical terms, ‘Muslim’ institutions like AMU and JMI have exhibited strong rigidity in accommodating persons from non-ashraf social locations as VC’s. If the claims of the Pasmanda Movement are true then not even a single VC in these institutions has been appointed from the Pasmanda Muslim communities since Independence (Mr. Hamid Ansari, the former VC of AMU who is usually taken to be a Pasmanda Muslim arguably comes from an ashraf family). Quite clearly the empanelment process of the Vice Chancellor in these two institutions is a strong testimony to such prejudices. Recently, a ‘Search Committee’ (comprising Justice Saghir Ahmed, Syed Hamid and Prof. Yashpal) constituted a panel of five persons for the Vice Chancellorship of JMI (see: The Indian Express, New Delhi edition, 12 June 2009) and submitted it to the President (visitor to the University). The panel includes Mr. Afzal Amanullah, Prof. Mushirul Hasan, Prof. Faizan Ahmad, Mr. Najeeb Jung and Mr. Mohd Shakeel Ahmad. While two members in the panel are academics, the rest are bureaucrats. Remarkably, neither the search committee nor the panel includes even a single name from non-ashraf Muslim communities! There are credible reports that an IAS officer from the UP cadre Mr. Anis Ansari, who also comes from a Pasmanda biradari, did offer his CV for the purpose. Moreover, having served as Secretary Agriculture and as Agricultural Production Controller (APC) of UP twice he did have the experience of managing and dealing with the affairs of higher education (including the prestigious Pantnagar Agriculture University). Besides, he has also served at the level of Additional Chief Secretary of UP and has held key positions in the departments of Rural Development, Industry and Urban Development etc. Yet his name was not deemed fit to be even mentioned in the panel of five. What is more remarkable is the fact that all the other bureaucrats favoured over him are either junior to him or had dissociated themselves from public service by taking voluntary retirement from the IAS way back (Mr. Najeeb Jung and Mr. Mohd Shakeel Ahmad). The selection process of the panel clearly underlines the strong and deeply entrenched prejudice against the Pasmanda Muslim communities. Afterall, what explains this anomaly and elision if not caste discrimination of the worst order? What is even more intriguing is that India, a nation of one billion people, is so deficient in human resources that a man in his 80’s, and with all the problems that old age brings, is allowed to play arbitrary and decisive roles in the affairs of ‘Muslim’ institutions in particular and the affairs of the Muslim community in general. Moreover, this particular person is highly distrusted by the Pasmanda sections of Muslims and his prejudices against a particular region are more than evident. He, in the capacity of AMU-VC, outrageously denied admissions to many students of Bihar. The aggregate of marks awarded by Bihar School Exam Board were supposed by him to be unduly inflated and hence he initiated the practice of deducting 5% marks from the aggregate while preparing the merit list for admissions to 11th standard in AMU. Let us reiterate that all these events are being monitored with anxious curiosity by the Pasmanda Muslim sections and all democratic citizens of this country. This is high time that the process of democratisation is initiated in ‘Muslim’ institutions and other structures of power. The Search Committee, the Executive Council and other such bodies of JMI, AMU et cetera must be made socially representative. In this respect, the appointment of the VC for JMI forms the acid test for Indian democracy and the commitment of the government of the day to the issues of social justice and social exclusion. The anger and frustration is brewing in Pasmanda Muslim communities over these repeated acts and instances of their structural marginalisation.  We, therefore, request the President Ms. Pratibha Patil to look into this matter and do the need-some. Moreover, we urge her to reinitiate the process of empanelment for the VC of JMI so as to ensure greater transparency and address the anomalies in the present panel convincingly. We sincerely hope that she will consider the sentiments of the huge Pasmanda Muslim masses before arriving at a suitable decision. 'Pasmanda Intellectuals' Forum, New Delhi ***The Pasmanda Intellectual’s Forum (PIF) is a small informal group of activists, journalists and intellectuals who deliberate on the issues concerning pasmanda and other subaltern sections like bahujans, gender, working classes, tribals and so on. They aspire for a plural and democratic India and strive to intervene in issues that take forward this agenda. Their overriding concern is to provide visibility to marginalized issues by articulating it and bringing it to the public sphere so that an informed debate can take place on the same. It does not have a formal hierarchical structure and is facilitated by a Coordinating Committee. Though it operates out of Delhi it has no spatial limitations and is open to all democratic citizens from any caste, creed, gender, class or religious location. At present the Coordinating Committee comprises Mr. Ashok Yadav (Patna), Mr. Noor Hasan Azad (Patna), Mohd. Hishamuddin (Patna), Mr. Raza Abbas (Aligarh), Dr. Mohd. Sajjad (Aligarh), Mr. Khalid Anis Ansari (New Delhi), Mr.Qasim Ansari (New Delhi), Mr. Naresh Kumar (Lucknow).*** From c.anupam at gmail.com Sat Jun 13 18:21:09 2009 From: c.anupam at gmail.com (anupam chakravartty) Date: Sat, 13 Jun 2009 18:21:09 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Anil Chawla's response to Kulkarni's "Hindu Divided Family" In-Reply-To: <7271ec560906130451n1b6834afvbc47dcdf553939d7@mail.gmail.com> References: <323279.70393.qm@web57205.mail.re3.yahoo.com> <7271ec560906130451n1b6834afvbc47dcdf553939d7@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <341380d00906130551u39ef655cr1649856e2c6fab52@mail.gmail.com> Dear all, One of the readers of the Sarai list on May 13 cited the word "abnegate" as the word of the day. I believe it was Jeebesh, who posted this word and its meanings while an intense discussion was going on between the list members about a mail from APJ Abdul Kalam. It is a coincidence that one month later Yashwant Sinha uses this same word: "If we are a party with a difference, let us set an example in *abnegation*. If the responsibility is collective, as I have often heard you say, then all of us should jointly share the responsibility for our defeat. Let the party implement its own Kamraj Plan under which all office bearers of the party and the parliamentary party should resign from their posts which should then be filled up through the process of election laid down by our constitution." Full text: http://www.indianexpress.com/news/text-yashwant-sinhas-letter-to-rajnath-singh/476003/1 On second thoughts, i wonder if words are best possible ways to convey what we feel. thanks -anupam On 6/13/09, Rajendra Bhat Uppinangadi wrote: > > Kshemendra, > > it is true that the views are expressed by Chawla are a sort of indirect > attack on idealogy of Kulakarni, but both the aspects are two different > perspectives of the idealogy of BJP and are proving to be not very accurate > as the party itself is undecided on what it calls as hinduthva in practice. > > The confusion is more confounded by the "hard " and sofy varieties of > being hindu, again a contradiction, as in secular democratic life, the > religion has no place in good governance, good governance again has to to > be > inclusive of all the citizens and can not be discriminatory, in a way the > BJP is getting congressized in its inner party functional aspects with a > coterie being powerful and at a cost to the well being of the party > Operation Kamala, in Karnataka has done more damage to the party as all > dort of discards and some powerful fuedal lords have found new life in the > party, in the long run, the loyal party worker is getting frustrated at > this > bad development of using the party for discards from other political > outfits > and also blatant display of wealth by mining lords.! > > Regards, > > Rajen. > > On Sat, Jun 13, 2009 at 3:51 PM, Kshmendra Kaul >wrote: > > > Dear Rajendra > > > > It would do the BJP good if they took on board seriously the points made > by > > Kulkarni instead of taking the "these are just the private views > > of journalist". > > > > In what little I saw of Jaswant Singh's interview by Barkha Dutt on NDTV, > > he makes some points similar to Kulkarni's. > > > > Brijesh Mishra has been more forthright in saying that BJP should have > > denied a ticket to Varun Gandhi. > > > > All that Anil Chawla has done is to question the shifting ideological > > loyalties of Kulkarni and indulge in a diatribe against Advani and his > > 'coterie'. Chawla has not questioned the validity of the points made by > > Kulkarni. > > > > Kshmendra > > > > --- On *Fri, 6/12/09, Rajendra Bhat Uppinangadi < > > rajen786uppinangady at gmail.com>* wrote: > > > > > > From: Rajendra Bhat Uppinangadi > > Subject: Re: [Reader-list] Anil Chawla's response to Kulkarni's "Hindu > > Divided Family" > > To: "Kshmendra Kaul" > > Cc: "sarai list" > > Date: Friday, June 12, 2009, 1:03 PM > > > > > > Dear Kshemendra, > > > > the reply posted by you from Mr. Anil Chawla is worthwhile read > material > > to understand different aspects of the election results and the position > of > > BJP.While success has many claimants, failure is a bastard, and when BJP > had > > only two seats in parliament, the rise to higher levels was only thanks > to > > mobilisation of the societal votes by the Rathyathra, by LK, who is a > good > > organiser, but a bad leader. Thanks to sober presence of Atalji, his > > acceptablity to all was the saving grace. Jaswanth Singh and Rajnathsingh > > are two misfits who are adorning the high places with ulterior gains as > the > > intent, as we see them with their utterances.Jaswanth who has no vote > base, > > Rajnath who can not have any say in UP are the misfits as national > leaders. > > > > > > Advani as leader has failed miserably, as he has no control over the > > issues such as the handling of second rung leadership. Even as Dy. PM, > his > > performance as administrator is woefully wanting, as six years is too > long a > > period for a home minister to prove his good intentions, he kept away > from > > all ticlish issues, such as re-settlement of kashmiri refugess in Delhi > > camps, facilitation of dispute of disputed land row at Ayodhya, as he did > > not have any initiative he is seen as every one as a bussinessman, > sindhi, > > who is keen on profits but not on capital.! > > > > > > Thu, Jun 11, 2009 at 3:02 PM, Kshmendra Kaul http://us.mc572.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=kshmendra2005 at yahoo.com> > > > wrote: > > > >> Tuesday, June 9, 2009 > >> > >> Dear friend, > >> > >> Namaskar, > >> > >> Sudheendra Kulkarni, who currently works as an aide to Mr. LK Advani, > >> is an old friend. In 1975, both of us joined IIT Bombay for B.Tech. A > >> couple of days back Sudheendra wrote an article "Hindu Divided > >> Family", which you may read at > >> > >> > http://www.tehelka.com/story_main42.asp?filename=Ne130609hindu_divided.asp > >> > >> Sudheendra's article has drawn considerable attention in media. I am > >> replying to Sudheendra in an open letter discussing the role of Mr. > >> Advani in BJP and also the defeat of BJP in recent elections. > >> > >> The enclosed open letter to Sudheendra is about 2000 words. Please > >> read it and send me your comments. > >> > >> With Best Wishes and Regards, > >> > >> Anil Chawla > >> > >> - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - > >> > >> > >> Dear Sudheendra, > >> > >> I have just read your "deeply introspective essay" on tehelka.com > >> about BJP's defeat in recent elections. The article is described as > >> introspective, but I failed to find anything that could be called > >> introspection by any stretch of imagination. True, you say that "I > >> too carry my share of responsibility", but that is more courteous > >> than introspective. > >> > >> > >> All through the essay, you look upon BJP as a patient lying on an > >> operating table and your role as that of an outsider trying to see > >> all that has gone wrong. The patient is being blamed for all that has > >> gone wrong, without in any way blaming either the virus or the team > >> of doctors who have brought the patient to the present critical > >> state. > >> > >> > >> Please pardon me for being direct and on the face. I guess as a > >> former classmate I can take this freedom. I campaigned for Janata > >> Party in 1977 elections. Ever since then I have been in and around > >> the party (JP/BJP) working at various levels. Sure enough, I have not > >> been an aide to Mr. LK Advani (LK) like you have been. Both of us > >> began dabbling in public life together at IIT Bombay. I have spent > >> more than three decades in close proximity with BJP and RSS without > >> ever being offered a post. I am not alone. There are thousands like > >> me who have served in their own humble way. What has always surprised > >> me is that someone like you who was a committed fulltime communist > >> for almost two decades, suddenly did an ideological somersault and > >> landed up straight in the top rungs of BJP. When you are in mood for > >> some introspection, please do think about this. Probably, the roots > >> to the present malaise in BJP can be traced to your own personal > >> journey. > >> > >> > >> When a communist suddenly becomes an ideologue for a party like BJP, > >> there is bound to be skepticism and even some ridicule. It becomes > >> imperative on the neo-convert to prove that there has been a genuine > >> transformation of the soul and not just a change of coat. Even if the > >> neo-convert does manage to prove his credentials, there is no way > >> that he should ever be allowed to rule over the heads of people who > >> have devoted their life to the cause. In your case, (a) you have > >> never proved that you have really changed and (b) you actually landed > >> up on top of the ranks in a manner that is most inexplicable. I say > >> that you have not been able to prove your credentials because I have > >> read some of your articles and I can say with a fair level of > >> confidence that you remain at heart a communist who is trying to put > >> on the camouflage of a Hindu. > >> > >> > >> Dear Sudheendra, I have nothing against you personally. Your > >> appointment as National Executive member of BJP, at the time of your > >> joining BJP, and later as Prime Minister's key aide had pleased me > >> enormously. One always likes to see old friends in positions of > >> power. The problem is that your case is not an isolated one, but a > >> representative one. There are many in Delhi and Mumbai who have been > >> able to gain access to LK's coterie by hook or by crook and it is > >> these who now rule over BJP. > >> > >> > >> When you analyze BJP and RSS with a cold surgeon like approach, you > >> ignore the role that LK's family and coterie has come to play in the > >> party. Elections of 2009 were not fought by BJP against Congress, but > >> were reduced by LK and his gang to a war by LK against one and all. > >> The party has been systematically hijacked and decimated over the > >> past decade and a half by LK's coterie. You just need to look at the > >> campaign material prepared by the party for the recent elections. > >> There is only one face -- LK's. Even Atal ji was not considered worthy > >> of being put on the hoardings and posters. Congress gained mileage > >> from photographs of Gandhi and Nehru decades after their deaths. > >> Communists continue to revere Lenin and Stalin till today. Contrast > >> this with the way LK and his war team dumped Atal ji most > >> discourteously even though he is alive and continues to be revered by > >> millions in the country. > >> > >> > >> You say that the BJP leadership is in disarray. If it is true, the > >> only person who is responsible for the mess in the party is LK and no > >> one else. He has ruled over the party with an iron hand for more than > >> two decades. In fact, the words "Majboot Neta" (Strong Leader) that > >> were used to describe LK during the recent election, apply only in > >> respect of the way LK behaves in the matter of crushing his critics > >> and opponents within the party. He is ruthless in demolishing anyone > >> who as much as raises an eyebrow against him. He has no patience for > >> anyone who even dreams of being his equal within the party. Can you > >> please name for me two people who are LK's equals within BJP, in LK's > >> vision? LK's desire to stand as a tallest leader made him choose only > >> pygmies for all critical positions in the party. The only way that > >> one could rise up in BJP with LK at helm was to act as a subservient > >> spineless dwarf. > >> > >> > >> The problem with dwarfs is that while they are very good for boosting > >> one's ego, they have limited use when one faces a war-like situation. > >> In the recent elections, LK decided to fight it all alone. LK and his > >> family and coterie thought that their rag-tag army of laptop > >> professionals could substitute for the well-oiled and tested > >> machinery of BJP, ABVP and RSS. The irony is that the blame for the > >> defeat is now being put on the doors of the organizations that were > >> treated most shabbily when LK and his team were dreaming of victory. > >> LK and his team are now complaining that no one from BJP top > >> leadership stood up to defend him when he was under attack. The fact > >> is that among BJP leadership, the ones who command any stature were > >> always ignored, attacked and pushed to the sideline by LK and his > >> gang. So when LK came under attack he looked around for support and > >> found none. Of course, there were many rats who were raising their > >> feeble voices in his support. Unfortunately, the voices of rats do > >> not count. This is something that LK should have thought before he > >> appointed rats in all the key positions. > >> > >> > >> You talk about the party's social base. Did LK do anything in this > >> regard during the past five years? The answer is an emphatic NO. When > >> LK did his last ‘yatra' before 2004 elections, a photograph of his > >> starting point was circulated. It showed LK standing with his > >> daughter and wife. There were no BJP leaders on the dais. LK defended > >> the presence of his family by saying that he drew strength from them. > >> This is the root of the problem. In the past decade or so, LK stopped > >> drawing strength from the party or Sangh parivar, and started leaning > >> on his personal family ignoring the larger family to which small > >> humble persons like me belong and from where we draw our strength. LK > >> saw the party and Sangh pariwar as a tool to achieve his personal > >> ambition at all costs. In the past decade, LK's focus was on building > >> his personal image, his family strengths, his mafia-like grip on the > >> party. The thought of getting or building leaders who command or > >> could potentially command respect in various social groups seems to > >> have been far removed from LK's mind. > >> > >> > >> I attended the function at Bhopal of LK's unveiling of his > >> autobiography in Hindi. What an unabashed projection by a person who > >> has no achievements worth mentioning even in one paragraph! Future > >> historians will mention LK as a classic example of a person who had > >> illusions of grandeur. They will write that he was a manipulator who > >> was ruthless to independent thought within his party and rose by > >> methods that ruined the party. Having said that they would probably > >> add - he saw films and wrote two eminently forgettable > >> autobiographies. What else is there to mention about LK's lifetime > >> achievements? Are there any articles / books written by him on > >> social-political issues? At least I am not aware of any. He is a > >> self-centered person who cannot see beyond himself and his interests. > >> If he puts pen on paper it is to describe his own self because that > >> is all that he can ever see. If he talks about Hinduism / Hindutwa or > >> any political ideology or national issues, it sounds hollow because > >> he has never applied his mind to anything except his own interests, > >> his family, his career, his ambitions, his dreams etc. > >> > >> > >> You might respond by saying that all politicians today are like that. > >> You would probably be right on that. But then they know that they are > >> run-of-the-mill politicians with no illusions of being grand strong > >> leaders. If LK had realized his own limitations, he would not have > >> tried to fashion 2009 elections as an exercise to elect him as the > >> prime minister. The worst thing that happened in 2004 and 2009 > >> elections is that the BJP, under the influence of LK, did not use the > >> elections as an exercise to take party's ideology forward. In days of > >> Jansangh, when it used to be absolutely clear that there was no > >> possibility of winning, the party would still fight. In those days, > >> it used to be clear that fighting an election was an opportunity to > >> propagate our ideology and thoughts to a bigger audience. In the 2009 > >> election, the campaign was focused only on the persona of LK ignoring > >> even the party's manifesto. > >> > >> > >> As an old hand of the broad ideological historical process that I > >> call as Hindu nationalistic movement, I have no serious regrets about > >> BJP losing 2004 or 2009 elections. But I do regret that the party > >> which was making an attempt in its initial years to define a new > >> vision for Ekatm Manavwad (translated by me as Monistic Humanism) > >> lost way. I regret that instead of focusing on issues and ideas the > >> party focused on an individual. I regret that the party for whom > >> thousands shed blood and lives became a tool in the hands of some who > >> want to live a seven-star lifestyle. I regret that personal ambitions > >> and aspirations of one man became the focus of many organizations > >> that are known for the sacrifices of their leaders. > >> > >> > >> Dear Sudheendra, I agree with you wholeheartedly when you say, "The > >> BJP can indeed bounce back. But it can do so only if it first renews > >> and empowers itself comprehensively -- in its ideology, its > >> geographical-social spread, its own political strength, its mass > >> activity, its alliance-building, its cadre-based organizational > >> network, and its leadership". The difference is in approach. While > >> you would like to probably do it with LK and his cronies at the helm, > >> I shall like Sangh pariwar to put the dark days of LK and his cronies > >> behind. > >> > >> > >> Sangh leadership must act to decisively purge BJP of LK and his > >> individual-centered style of working. Competence and not loyalty to > >> this or that individual must be the criterion for all appointments. > >> Ideology must take centre-stage once again and those who can help > >> with defining and clarifying ideological issues should be in key > >> positions and not sycophants or moneybags. > >> > >> > >> I am making this letter public because I think that the issues that > >> are discussed here are very important and need a wider debate. Of > >> course, I know that this will put me at the risk of harsh retaliatory > >> action by LK and his coterie. I guess that I have to take this risk > >> in wider national interest. I hope I can count on you as an old > >> friend if the action turns nasty. > >> > >> > >> With Best Wishes and Regards, > >> > >> > >> Anil Chawla > >> > >> > >> www.hindustanstudies.com > >> www.samarthbharat.com > >> www.indialegalhelp.com > >> > >> > >> http://groups.google.com/group/soc.culture.indian/msg/eb5d518cb3a23927 > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> _________________________________________ > >> reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > >> Critiques & Collaborations > >> To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net< > http://us.mc572.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=reader-list-request at sarai.net>with > subscribe in the subject header. > >> To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > >> List archive: > > > > > > > > > > -- > > Rajen. > > > > > > > > > -- > Rajen. > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > subscribe in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> From kshmendra2005 at yahoo.com Sat Jun 13 19:57:02 2009 From: kshmendra2005 at yahoo.com (Kshmendra Kaul) Date: Sat, 13 Jun 2009 07:27:02 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Reader-list] Anil Chawla's response to Kulkarni's "Hindu Divided Family" Message-ID: <889993.64332.qm@web57203.mail.re3.yahoo.com> Dear Anupam   Thanks for posting this. Should ask Jeebesh if he has ghost-written Yashwant Sinha's missive.   Apart from other meanings furnished by Jeebesh (1. To refuse or deny oneself; to reject; to renounce. 2. To give up (rights, claims, etc.); to surrender; to relinquish) another interesting meaning of "abnegation" is :       """"" abnegation - the denial and rejection of a doctrine or belief; """"""   Yashwant Sinha has written " this election has thrown up a number of issues which we can ignore only at our peril."   Interestingly, he has included in those issues "our basic tenets,".   Kshmendra   --- On Sat, 6/13/09, anupam chakravartty wrote: From: anupam chakravartty Subject: Re: [Reader-list] Anil Chawla's response to Kulkarni's "Hindu Divided Family" To: "sarai list" Date: Saturday, June 13, 2009, 6:21 PM Dear all, One of the readers of the Sarai list on May 13 cited the word "abnegate" as the word of the day. I believe it was Jeebesh, who posted this word and its meanings while an intense discussion was going on between the list members about a mail from APJ Abdul Kalam. It is a coincidence that one month later Yashwant Sinha uses this same word: "If we are a party with a difference, let us set an example in *abnegation*. If the responsibility is collective, as I have often heard you say, then all of us should jointly share the responsibility for our defeat. Let the party implement its own Kamraj Plan under which all office bearers of the party and the parliamentary party should resign from their posts which should then be filled up through the process of election laid down by our constitution." Full text: http://www.indianexpress.com/news/text-yashwant-sinhas-letter-to-rajnath-singh/476003/1 On second thoughts, i wonder if words are best possible ways to convey what we feel. thanks -anupam On 6/13/09, Rajendra Bhat Uppinangadi wrote: > > Kshemendra, > > it is true that the views are expressed by Chawla are a sort of indirect > attack on idealogy of Kulakarni, but both the aspects are two different > perspectives of the idealogy of BJP and are proving to be not very accurate > as the party itself is undecided on what it calls as hinduthva in practice. > > The confusion is more confounded by the "hard " and sofy varieties of > being hindu, again a contradiction, as in secular democratic life, the > religion has no place in good governance, good governance again has to to > be > inclusive of all the citizens and can not be discriminatory, in a way the > BJP is getting congressized in its inner party functional aspects with a > coterie being powerful and at a cost to the well being of the party > Operation Kamala, in Karnataka  has done more damage to the party as all > dort of discards and some powerful fuedal lords have found new life in the > party, in the long run, the loyal party worker is getting frustrated at > this > bad development of using the party for discards from other political > outfits > and also blatant display of wealth by mining lords.! > > Regards, > > Rajen. > > On Sat, Jun 13, 2009 at 3:51 PM, Kshmendra Kaul >wrote: > > > Dear Rajendra > > > > It would do the BJP good if they took on board seriously the points made > by > > Kulkarni instead of taking the "these are just the private views > > of journalist". > > > > In what little I saw of Jaswant Singh's interview by Barkha Dutt on NDTV, > > he makes some points similar to Kulkarni's. > > > > Brijesh Mishra has been more forthright in saying that BJP should have > > denied a ticket to Varun Gandhi. > > > > All that Anil Chawla has done is to question the shifting ideological > > loyalties of Kulkarni and indulge in a diatribe against Advani and his > > 'coterie'. Chawla has not questioned the validity of the points made by > > Kulkarni. > > > > Kshmendra > > > > --- On *Fri, 6/12/09, Rajendra Bhat Uppinangadi < > > rajen786uppinangady at gmail.com>* wrote: > > > > > > From: Rajendra Bhat Uppinangadi > > Subject: Re: [Reader-list] Anil Chawla's response to Kulkarni's "Hindu > > Divided Family" > > To: "Kshmendra Kaul" > > Cc: "sarai list" > > Date: Friday, June 12, 2009, 1:03 PM > > > > > >  Dear Kshemendra, > > > >   the reply posted by you from Mr. Anil Chawla is  worthwhile read > material > > to understand different aspects of the election results and the position > of > > BJP.While success has many claimants, failure is a bastard, and when BJP > had > > only two seats in parliament, the rise to higher levels was only thanks > to > > mobilisation of the societal votes by the Rathyathra, by LK, who is a > good > > organiser, but a bad leader. Thanks to sober presence of Atalji, his > > acceptablity to all was the saving grace. Jaswanth Singh and Rajnathsingh > > are two misfits who are adorning the high places with ulterior gains as > the > > intent, as we see them with their utterances.Jaswanth who has no vote > base, > > Rajnath who can not have any say in UP are the misfits as national > leaders. > > > > > >      Advani as leader has failed miserably, as he has no control over the > > issues such as the handling of second rung leadership. Even as Dy. PM, > his > > performance as administrator is woefully wanting, as six years is too > long a > > period for a home minister to prove his good intentions, he kept away > from > > all ticlish issues, such as re-settlement of kashmiri refugess in Delhi > > camps, facilitation of dispute of disputed land row at Ayodhya, as he did > > not have any initiative he is seen as every one as a bussinessman, > sindhi, > > who is keen on profits but not on capital.! > > > > > > Thu, Jun 11, 2009 at 3:02 PM, Kshmendra Kaul http://us.mc572.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=kshmendra2005 at yahoo.com> > > > wrote: > > > >> Tuesday, June 9, 2009 > >> > >> Dear friend, > >> > >> Namaskar, > >> > >> Sudheendra Kulkarni, who currently works as an aide to Mr. LK Advani, > >> is an old friend. In 1975, both of us joined IIT Bombay for B.Tech. A > >> couple of days back Sudheendra wrote an article "Hindu Divided > >> Family", which you may read at > >> > >> > http://www.tehelka.com/story_main42.asp?filename=Ne130609hindu_divided.asp > >> > >> Sudheendra's article has drawn considerable attention in media. I am > >> replying to Sudheendra in an open letter discussing the role of Mr. > >> Advani in BJP and also the defeat of BJP in recent elections. > >> > >> The enclosed open letter to Sudheendra  is about 2000 words. Please > >> read it and send me your comments. > >> > >> With Best Wishes and Regards, > >> > >> Anil Chawla > >> > >>  - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - > >> > >> > >> Dear Sudheendra, > >> > >> I have just read your "deeply introspective essay" on tehelka.com > >> about BJP's defeat in recent elections. The article is described as > >> introspective, but I failed to find anything that could be called > >> introspection by any stretch of imagination. True, you say that "I > >> too carry my share of responsibility", but that is more courteous > >> than introspective. > >> > >> > >> All through the essay, you look upon BJP as a patient lying on an > >> operating table and your role as that of an outsider trying to see > >> all that has gone wrong. The patient is being blamed for all that has > >> gone wrong, without in any way blaming either the virus or the team > >> of doctors who have brought the patient to the present critical > >> state. > >> > >> > >> Please pardon me for being direct and on the face. I guess as a > >> former classmate I can take this freedom. I campaigned for Janata > >> Party in 1977 elections. Ever since then I have been in and around > >> the party (JP/BJP) working at various levels. Sure enough, I have not > >> been an aide to Mr. LK Advani (LK) like you have been. Both of us > >> began dabbling in public life together at IIT Bombay. I have spent > >> more than three decades in close proximity with BJP and RSS without > >> ever being offered a post. I am not alone. There are thousands like > >> me who have served in their own humble way. What has always surprised > >> me is that someone like you who was a committed fulltime communist > >> for almost two decades, suddenly did an ideological somersault and > >> landed up straight in the top rungs of BJP. When you are in mood for > >> some introspection, please do think about this. Probably, the roots > >> to the present malaise in BJP can be traced to your own personal > >> journey. > >> > >> > >> When a communist suddenly becomes an ideologue for a party like BJP, > >> there is bound to be skepticism and even some ridicule. It becomes > >> imperative on the neo-convert to prove that there has been a genuine > >> transformation of the soul and not just a change of coat. Even if the > >> neo-convert does manage to prove his credentials, there is no way > >> that he should ever be allowed to rule over the heads of people who > >> have devoted their life to the cause. In your case, (a) you have > >> never proved that you have really changed and (b) you actually landed > >> up on top of the ranks in a manner that is most inexplicable. I say > >> that you have not been able to prove your credentials because I have > >> read some of your articles and I can say with a fair level of > >> confidence that you remain at heart a communist who is trying to put > >> on the camouflage of a Hindu. > >> > >> > >> Dear Sudheendra, I have nothing against you personally. Your > >> appointment as National Executive member of BJP, at the time of your > >> joining BJP, and later as Prime Minister's key aide had pleased me > >> enormously. One always likes to see old friends in positions of > >> power. The problem is that your case is not an isolated one, but a > >> representative one. There are many in Delhi and Mumbai who have been > >> able to gain access to LK's coterie by hook or by crook and it is > >> these who now rule over BJP. > >> > >> > >> When you analyze BJP and RSS with a cold surgeon like approach, you > >> ignore the role that LK's family and coterie has come to play in the > >> party. Elections of 2009 were not fought by BJP against Congress, but > >> were reduced by LK and his gang to a war by LK against one and all. > >> The party has been systematically hijacked and decimated over the > >> past decade and a half by LK's coterie. You just need to look at the > >> campaign material prepared by the party for the recent elections. > >> There is only one face -- LK's. Even Atal ji was not considered worthy > >> of being put on the hoardings and posters. Congress gained mileage > >> from photographs of Gandhi and Nehru decades after their deaths. > >> Communists continue to revere Lenin and Stalin till today. Contrast > >> this with the way LK and his war team dumped Atal ji most > >> discourteously even though he is alive and continues to be revered by > >> millions in the country. > >> > >> > >> You say that the BJP leadership is in disarray. If it is true, the > >> only person who is responsible for the mess in the party is LK and no > >> one else. He has ruled over the party with an iron hand for more than > >> two decades. In fact, the words "Majboot Neta" (Strong Leader) that > >> were used to describe LK during the recent election, apply only in > >> respect of the way LK behaves in the matter of crushing his critics > >> and opponents within the party. He is ruthless in demolishing anyone > >> who as much as raises an eyebrow against him. He has no patience for > >> anyone who even dreams of being his equal within the party. Can you > >> please name for me two people who are LK's equals within BJP, in LK's > >> vision? LK's desire to stand as a tallest leader made him choose only > >> pygmies for all critical positions in the party. The only way that > >> one could rise up in BJP with LK at helm was to act as a subservient > >> spineless dwarf. > >> > >> > >> The problem with dwarfs is that while they are very good for boosting > >> one's ego, they have limited use when one faces a war-like situation. > >> In the recent elections, LK decided to fight it all alone. LK and his > >> family and coterie thought that their rag-tag army of laptop > >> professionals could substitute for the well-oiled and tested > >> machinery of BJP, ABVP and RSS. The irony is that the blame for the > >> defeat is now being put on the doors of the organizations that were > >> treated most shabbily when LK and his team were dreaming of victory. > >> LK and his team are now complaining that no one from BJP top > >> leadership stood up to defend him when he was under attack. The fact > >> is that among BJP leadership, the ones who command any stature were > >> always ignored, attacked and pushed to the sideline by LK and his > >> gang. So when LK came under attack he looked around for support and > >> found none. Of course, there were many rats who were raising their > >> feeble voices in his support. Unfortunately, the voices of rats do > >> not count. This is something that LK should have thought before he > >> appointed rats in all the key positions. > >> > >> > >> You talk about the party's social base. Did LK do anything in this > >> regard during the past five years? The answer is an emphatic NO. When > >> LK did his last ‘yatra' before 2004 elections, a photograph of his > >> starting point was circulated. It showed LK standing with his > >> daughter and wife. There were no BJP leaders on the dais. LK defended > >> the presence of his family by saying that he drew strength from them. > >> This is the root of the problem. In the past decade or so, LK stopped > >> drawing strength from the party or Sangh parivar, and started leaning > >> on his personal family ignoring the larger family to which small > >> humble persons like me belong and from where we draw our strength. LK > >> saw the party and Sangh pariwar as a tool to achieve his personal > >> ambition at all costs. In the past decade, LK's focus was on building > >> his personal image, his family strengths, his mafia-like grip on the > >> party. The thought of getting or building leaders who command or > >> could potentially command respect in various social groups seems to > >> have been far removed from LK's mind. > >> > >> > >> I attended the function at Bhopal of LK's unveiling of his > >> autobiography in Hindi. What an unabashed projection by a person who > >> has no achievements worth mentioning even in one paragraph! Future > >> historians will mention LK as a classic example of a person who had > >> illusions of grandeur. They will write that he was a manipulator who > >> was ruthless to independent thought within his party and rose by > >> methods that ruined the party. Having said that they would probably > >> add - he saw films and wrote two eminently forgettable > >> autobiographies. What else is there to mention about LK's lifetime > >> achievements? Are there any articles / books written by him on > >> social-political issues? At least I am not aware of any. He is a > >> self-centered person who cannot see beyond himself and his interests. > >> If he puts pen on paper it is to describe his own self because that > >> is all that he can ever see. If he talks about Hinduism / Hindutwa or > >> any political ideology or national issues, it sounds hollow because > >> he has never applied his mind to anything except his own interests, > >> his family, his career, his ambitions, his dreams etc. > >> > >> > >> You might respond by saying that all politicians today are like that. > >> You would probably be right on that. But then they know that they are > >> run-of-the-mill politicians with no illusions of being grand strong > >> leaders. If LK had realized his own limitations, he would not have > >> tried to fashion 2009 elections as an exercise to elect him as the > >> prime minister. The worst thing that happened in 2004 and 2009 > >> elections is that the BJP, under the influence of LK, did not use the > >> elections as an exercise to take party's ideology forward. In days of > >> Jansangh, when it used to be absolutely clear that there was no > >> possibility of winning, the party would still fight. In those days, > >> it used to be clear that fighting an election was an opportunity to > >> propagate our ideology and thoughts to a bigger audience. In the 2009 > >> election, the campaign was focused only on the persona of LK ignoring > >> even the party's manifesto. > >> > >> > >> As an old hand of the broad ideological historical process that I > >> call as Hindu nationalistic movement, I have no serious regrets about > >> BJP losing 2004 or 2009 elections. But I do regret that the party > >> which was making an attempt in its initial years to define a new > >> vision for Ekatm Manavwad (translated by me as Monistic Humanism) > >> lost way. I regret that instead of focusing on issues and ideas the > >> party focused on an individual. I regret that the party for whom > >> thousands shed blood and lives became a tool in the hands of some who > >> want to live a seven-star lifestyle. I regret that personal ambitions > >> and aspirations of one man became the focus of many organizations > >> that are known for the sacrifices of their leaders. > >> > >> > >> Dear Sudheendra, I agree with you wholeheartedly when you say, "The > >> BJP can indeed bounce back. But it can do so only if it first renews > >> and empowers itself comprehensively -- in its ideology, its > >> geographical-social spread, its own political strength, its mass > >> activity, its alliance-building, its cadre-based organizational > >> network, and its leadership". The difference is in approach. While > >> you would like to probably do it with LK and his cronies at the helm, > >> I shall like Sangh pariwar to put the dark days of LK and his cronies > >> behind. > >> > >> > >> Sangh leadership must act to decisively purge BJP of LK and his > >> individual-centered style of working. Competence and not loyalty to > >> this or that individual must be the criterion for all appointments. > >> Ideology must take centre-stage once again and those who can help > >> with defining and clarifying ideological issues should be in key > >> positions and not sycophants or moneybags. > >> > >> > >> I am making this letter public because I think that the issues that > >> are discussed here are very important and need a wider debate. Of > >> course, I know that this will put me at the risk of harsh retaliatory > >> action by LK and his coterie. I guess that I have to take this risk > >> in wider national interest. I hope I can count on you as an old > >> friend if the action turns nasty. > >> > >> > >> With Best Wishes and Regards, > >> > >> > >> Anil Chawla > >> > >> > >> www.hindustanstudies.com > >> www.samarthbharat.com > >> www.indialegalhelp.com > >> > >> > >> http://groups.google.com/group/soc.culture.indian/msg/eb5d518cb3a23927 > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> _________________________________________ > >> reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > >> Critiques & Collaborations > >> To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net< > http://us.mc572.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=reader-list-request at sarai.net>with > subscribe in the subject header. > >> To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > >> List archive: > > > > > > > > > > -- > > Rajen. > > > > > > > > > -- > Rajen. > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > subscribe in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> _________________________________________ reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. Critiques & Collaborations To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with subscribe in the subject header. To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> From 2tahamehmood at googlemail.com Sat Jun 13 20:10:59 2009 From: 2tahamehmood at googlemail.com (Taha Mehmood) Date: Sat, 13 Jun 2009 15:40:59 +0100 Subject: [Reader-list] Pasmanda Intellectuals' Forum Questions the selection process of the Vice-Chancellor (VC) of the Jamia Milia Islamiya University (JMI), New Delhi In-Reply-To: <2076f31d0906130515s2ade1267m62041ce7b884b93c@mail.gmail.com> References: <2076f31d0906130515s2ade1267m62041ce7b884b93c@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <65be9bf40906130740i22326076n4ed7eed28361bfb6@mail.gmail.com> Dear Arshad, Thank you for forwarding an open letter addressed to the president of India written by members of so called Pasmanda community. I hope that not only the President but also the citizens of India and institutions which are engaged in public discourse must sit up and take notice of the views presented in the letter. However, let me just add that I will not be surprised at all, if the contents of this letter are either ignored or dismissed. The reason being quite simple. The argument presented through this letter suggests that lived or practiced Islam is a fractured idea in India. I cannot foresee that either our learned journalists or our experts of Islam in India or elsewhere will quickly acknowledge the genuine aspiration of a separate identity by members of the so called Pasmanda community. The idea of Islam, it seems, like other ideas is often reduced to a bunch of cliches when people who are in the business of representation seek to represent it. The data concerning the demographic breakup of Muslims in India, suggests that- 'the Pasmanda Muslims (dalit/backward caste Muslims; also called ajlaf and arzal) constitute about 75% of the Indian Muslim population (the remaining 25% is formed by the upper caste ashraf Muslims).' This, I believe is a remarkable revelation. However, I think, the crucial question would be to clearly assess how much of this data could have a direct bearing on political power? Which to a large extent may determine the seriousness with which the claims of 'Pasmanda Muslims' will be addressed. On a different note though, I most earnestly hope that with this beginning the 'Pasmanda Intellectuals' Forum, based at New Delhi must make all the efforts to build an intellectual body of work to not only clearly delineate but definitively articulate and propagate various historical, political, economical and philosophical reasons to concretize such an identity. Then and only then I think we could get a sense of beginning of the end of this ugly and stereotypical, this utterly rubbish and often disgusting bogey of a mythical creature called 'Indian Muslims'. Warm regards Taha From sonia.jabbar at gmail.com Sat Jun 13 20:33:20 2009 From: sonia.jabbar at gmail.com (S. Jabbar) Date: Sat, 13 Jun 2009 20:33:20 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Election Forecast In-Reply-To: <591129.50153.qm@web57205.mail.re3.yahoo.com> Message-ID: Pakistan is still governed by constitutional law where jaziya does not find a place despite the clamour by some sections to impose the Sharia. The Œtax¹ imposed by the Taliban is nothing other than Œhafta¹ in the guise of jaziya. From: Kshmendra Kaul Date: Sat, 13 Jun 2009 02:30:20 -0700 (PDT) To: "S. Jabbar" Cc: Sarai Subject: Re: [Reader-list] Election Forecast There are some practices that pre-date Islam (in terms of Quran-Mohammad) but found themselves 'sanctified' through the Quran and/or the reported words/practices of Mohammad. "Jaziya" is one such Practice/Law. There are many explanations and interpretations given for "Jaziya" with respect to 'Non-Muslim individuals' and 'entities conquered through war or threatened with war'. In current times, "Jaziya paid by Non-Muslims" could perhaps best be explained as being equivalent to "Zakaat paid by Muslims" Kshmendra --- On Fri, 6/12/09, S. Jabbar wrote: > > From: S. Jabbar > Subject: Re: [Reader-list] Election Forecast > To: "Vedavati Jogi" , "Rakesh Iyer" > > Cc: "Sarai" > Date: Friday, June 12, 2009, 2:21 PM > > The people in the NWFP who imposed a tax on non-Muslims in the name of Islam > are brigands. They are also known collectively as the Taliban, a feared > entity who have wreaked greater havoc on the lives of Muslims in the area. > > Jaziya is commonly and mistakenly seen as an inherent Islamic practice, a > fundamental tenet of Islam, where in fact the Arabs simply continued the > practice of levying a poll tax on subject races in their newly conquered > territories. > > The practice of poll tax was instituted by the Sassanid Empire, which ruled > a vast swathe of land which included the Caucasus, Iraq, southern Central > Asia, Iran and Afghanistan from 205 CE for 400 years, much before the birth > of Islam. > > The Sassanids, incidentally, were Zoroastrian, ancestors of the people we > know as Parsis. > > > > >> > From: Vedavati Jogi > > >> > Date: Wed, 20 May 2009 10:25:13 +0530 (IST) >> > To: Rakesh Iyer > > >> > Cc: > > >> > Subject: Re: [Reader-list] Election Forecast >> > >> > after reading secular mails on this readers list i am thoroughly convinced >> > that very soon india will be a muslim country because muslims are going to >> > outnumber hindus by 2050 and hindus will have to pay jizia (the way sikhs >> in >> > pakistan are paying) > > ( unfortunately or fortunately )muslims don't >> > descriminate between seculars and others > for them hindus are hindus and not >> > brahmins/dalits/marathas/seculars/communals etc. > so all of us - you as well >> > as me will have to pay jizia. > > be mentally ( and financially also) >> > prepared. > > vedavati > > --- On Mon, 18/5/09, Rakesh Iyer >> > > > >> wrote: > > > From: Rakesh Iyer >> > > > > Subject: Re: [Reader-list] Election Forecast > To: >> > "anupam chakravartty" > > > Cc: "sarai list" >> > > > > Date: Monday, 18 May, 2009, 5:20 PM > > > Dear >> > Vedavati > > Before pointing fingers at others, look at oneself. Considering the >> > demand > of Hindus like you, if BJP were to come to power (either as coalition >> > or on > their own), the sword would be hanging on the head of the minorities as >> > to > when their women would be raped, their children would be left >> > parent-less > and when their lives would be destroyed. It's certainly good that >> > UPA has > come to power, and now we have one less issue to focus upon (which >> > is > minority rights), at least upto a certain extent. > > When the NDA was in >> > power, we had to focus on jokers like Praveen Togadia, > Ashok Singhal, Acharya >> > Dharmendra, some more useless sadhus and mahants, and > also Modi mania. >> > Unnecessarily at some point of time or other, there would > be some nonsense >> > shilanyas and some daan or the other. At least under the > UPA, such useless >> > antics are out. While Kandhamal, Karnataka and Mangalore > indeed have taken >> > place, at least a widespread pogrom has not taken place. > > And as for >> > Bangladesh and Pakistan, thanks to Hindus like you, I can say > comfortably that >> > if people like you were to come to power (in any party or > form), we would >> > become a Hindu rashtra where our minorities would be living > worse than second >> > class citizens. And you are not a secular anyway, and you > are a Hindu. > > India >> > is secular not because Hindus are in majority. India is secular > because >> > majority of the people live as a secular society does (irrespective > of whether >> > they believe in secularism). They don't want conflicts for > umpteen no. of >> > reasons. And they can see through the political game of our > Hindutva and >> > fundamentalist Islamic friends. > > As for Muslim nations which are secular, go >> > to Turkey, Indonesia and > Malaysia. > > Regards > > Rakesh > > PS: I wonder where our >> > Modi bhai is, now that results are out for the > general election. Everybody is >> > talking about Advani not talking to media. > Seems Modi is another version of >> > Advani. When things are going against him, > he is the first one (like Advani) >> > to hide and run away. And he is supposedly > the 'next PM' candidate of BJP in >> > 2014. > > Jaisa Guru, waisa chela........jai >> > ho!! > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion >> > list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an >> > email to reader-list-request at sarai.net >> >> with subscribe in the subject >> > header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list >> > > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> > > > >> > Cricket on your mind? Visit the ultimate cricket website. Enter >> > http://beta.cricket.yahoo.com > _________________________________________ > reader >> > -list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & >> > Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net > >> > with subscribe in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: >> > https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: >> > <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> > > > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net > > with subscribe in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> > From javedmasoo at gmail.com Sat Jun 13 21:59:37 2009 From: javedmasoo at gmail.com (M Javed) Date: Sat, 13 Jun 2009 21:59:37 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Pasmanda Intellectuals' Forum Questions... Message-ID: Dear Arshad I have never figured out if I am a pasmanda or ashraf or ajlaf. How does one find that out. I don't have a tag of a caste or sub-caste with my name, nor have I ever been told by my parents or family about it. And how do the selectors of a job like a VC find out if a candidate is a pasmanda or ashraf. Apparently "Ansaris" are supposed to be the ajlaf or pasmanda, but Hamid Ansari (our vice-president) and so many other Ansaris have been among the elite of the Muslims for so many generations. So how does it work out then. Javed On 6/13/09, arshad amanullah wrote: > [With apologies for X-posting] > > An Open Letter to the President Ms. Pratibha Patil > > > The last two decades in Indian democracy have witnessed wider > acknowledgement and interrogation of the disproportionate hegemony of > upper castes in the structures of power. Quite clearly such overt > domination of a few elite oligarchic caste groups in decision making > processes runs against the pluralist and democratic ambitions of the > Indian Constitution. The persistence of such trends does not augur > well for the future of this nation. > > The legitimacy of the category of caste in non-Hindu (minority) > communities is now officially established. The inclusion of 82 Muslim > caste groups in the OBC list of the Mandal Commission Report in 1990 > was a watershed event in this context. The presence of caste in Muslim > community is also reaffirmed by the recent Sachhar Committee Report > and the report of the Ranganath Mishra Commission on Linguistic > Minorities. > > Moreover, apart from the official recognition there is a strong > movement among the dalit/backward caste Muslims that is gaining ground > in North India (especially UP and Bihar). The movement is called the > ‘Pasmanda Movement’ and it is articulating the anxiety and anger of > the Pasmanda Muslim sections over their blatant social exclusion. It > must be borne in mind that the Pasmanda Muslims (dalit/backward caste > Muslims; also called ajlaf and arzal) constitute about 75% of the > Indian Muslim population (the remaining 25% is formed by the upper > caste ashraf Muslims). The politics of numeric should itself suffice > to suggest that their claims can not be taken lightly. The > marginalisation of Pasmanda Muslims from state and community-controlle > d institutions is an issue that perhaps needs to be urgently > addressed. > > In this context, the recent reports about the selection process of the > Vice-Chancellor (VC) of the Jamia Milia Islamiya University (JMI), New > Delhi have once again disappointed the Pasmanda Muslim sections. In > historical terms, ‘Muslim’ institutions like AMU and JMI have > exhibited strong rigidity in accommodating persons from non-ashraf > social locations as VC’s. If the claims of the Pasmanda Movement are > true then not even a single VC in these institutions has been > appointed from the Pasmanda Muslim communities since Independence (Mr. > Hamid Ansari, the former VC of AMU who is usually taken to be a > Pasmanda Muslim arguably comes from an ashraf family). Quite clearly > the empanelment process of the Vice Chancellor in these two > institutions is a strong testimony to such prejudices. > > Recently, a ‘Search Committee’ (comprising Justice Saghir Ahmed, Syed > Hamid and Prof. Yashpal) constituted a panel of five persons for the > Vice Chancellorship of JMI (see: The Indian Express, New Delhi > edition, 12 June 2009) and submitted it to the President (visitor to > the University). The panel includes Mr. Afzal Amanullah, Prof. > Mushirul Hasan, Prof. Faizan Ahmad, Mr. Najeeb Jung and Mr. Mohd > Shakeel Ahmad. While two members in the panel are academics, the rest > are bureaucrats. Remarkably, neither the search committee nor the > panel includes even a single name from non-ashraf Muslim communities! > > There are credible reports that an IAS officer from the UP cadre Mr. > Anis Ansari, who also comes from a Pasmanda biradari, did offer his CV > for the purpose. Moreover, having served as Secretary Agriculture and > as Agricultural Production Controller (APC) of UP twice he did have > the experience of managing and dealing with the affairs of higher > education (including the prestigious Pantnagar Agriculture > University). Besides, he has also served at the level of Additional > Chief Secretary of UP and has held key positions in the departments of > Rural Development, Industry and Urban Development etc. Yet his name > was not deemed fit to be even mentioned in the panel of five. What is > more remarkable is the fact that all the other bureaucrats favoured > over him are either junior to him or had dissociated themselves from > public service by taking voluntary retirement from the IAS way back > (Mr. Najeeb Jung and Mr. Mohd Shakeel Ahmad). The selection process of > the panel clearly underlines the strong and deeply entrenched > prejudice against the Pasmanda Muslim communities. Afterall, what > explains this anomaly and elision if not caste discrimination of the > worst order? > > What is even more intriguing is that India, a nation of one billion > people, is so deficient in human resources that a man in his 80’s, and > with all the problems that old age brings, is allowed to play > arbitrary and decisive roles in the affairs of ‘Muslim’ institutions > in particular and the affairs of the Muslim community in general. > Moreover, this particular person is highly distrusted by the Pasmanda > sections of Muslims and his prejudices against a particular region are > more than evident. He, in the capacity of AMU-VC, outrageously denied > admissions to many students of Bihar. The aggregate of marks awarded > by Bihar School Exam Board were supposed by him to be unduly inflated > and hence he initiated the practice of deducting 5% marks from the > aggregate while preparing the merit list for admissions to 11th > standard in AMU. > > Let us reiterate that all these events are being monitored with > anxious curiosity by the Pasmanda Muslim sections and all democratic > citizens of this country. This is high time that the process of > democratisation is initiated in ‘Muslim’ institutions and other > structures of power. The Search Committee, the Executive Council and > other such bodies of JMI, AMU et cetera must be made socially > representative. > > In this respect, the appointment of the VC for JMI forms the acid test > for Indian democracy and the commitment of the government of the day > to the issues of social justice and social exclusion. The anger and > frustration is brewing in Pasmanda Muslim communities over these > repeated acts and instances of their structural marginalisation. > > We, therefore, request the President Ms. Pratibha Patil to look into > this matter and do the need-some. Moreover, we urge her to reinitiate > the process of empanelment for the VC of JMI so as to ensure greater > transparency and address the anomalies in the present panel > convincingly. We sincerely hope that she will consider the sentiments > of the huge Pasmanda Muslim masses before arriving at a suitable > decision. > > > 'Pasmanda Intellectuals' Forum, New Delhi > > > ***The Pasmanda Intellectual’s Forum (PIF) is a small informal group > of activists, journalists and intellectuals who deliberate on the > issues concerning pasmanda and other subaltern sections like bahujans, > gender, working classes, tribals and so on. They aspire for a plural > and democratic India and strive to intervene in issues that take > forward this agenda. Their overriding concern is to provide visibility > to marginalized issues by articulating it and bringing it to the > public sphere so that an informed debate can take place on the same. > It does not have a formal hierarchical structure and is facilitated by > a Coordinating Committee. Though it operates out of Delhi it has no > spatial limitations and is open to all democratic citizens from any > caste, creed, gender, class or religious location. > > At present the Coordinating Committee comprises Mr. Ashok Yadav > (Patna), Mr. Noor Hasan Azad (Patna), Mohd. Hishamuddin (Patna), Mr. > Raza Abbas (Aligarh), Dr. Mohd. Sajjad (Aligarh), Mr. Khalid Anis > Ansari (New Delhi), Mr.Qasim Ansari (New Delhi), Mr. Naresh Kumar > (Lucknow).*** > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with subscribe > in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> From aiindex at gmail.com Sun Jun 14 05:27:22 2009 From: aiindex at gmail.com (Harsh Kapoor) Date: Sun, 14 Jun 2009 01:57:22 +0200 Subject: [Reader-list] 'Men in uniform are Kashmir's problem, not solution' Message-ID: http://tinyurl.com/muga5v 'Men in uniform are Kashmir's problem, not solution' by Sanjay Kak (The Times of India, 14 Jun 2009) Those who use the media filter to try to understand what is happening in Kashmir should realize they're looking at a shadow play. A curtain lies between events and us. What is played out on the screen depends on who manipulates the sources of light. Last summer, the Valley was overwhelmed by several months of unprecedented non-violent public protest. It was triggered by the complicated Amarnath land issue, but on the streets the people were saying "Hum kya chahte? Azadi!" We are hearing this again this summer, triggered by the rape and murder of two young women from Shopian in south Kashmir. Only the stone deaf could miss the cry. Between these two summer uprisings came the Assembly elections of December. As everyone braced for a boycott, people did turn out to vote. This surprise turnout was presented as nothing short of a miracle and we were informed that this was "a vote for Indian democracy". Those who wondered why people who had braved bullets only a month ago should suddenly queue up to vote were reminded that Kashmiris were an unpredictable, even contrary, people. In fact, there is a frightening consistence about the Kashmiri chant for decades: "Hum kya chahte? Azadi!" Protests have begun for all sorts of reasons but they are a manifestation of the simmering anger always close to the surface. The current round of protests were given a head-start by the distinctly amateur vacillations of the state chief minister, not least his puzzling shifts on what may have actually happened to Nilofar, 22, and her sister-in-law Asiya, 17, on the night of May 29. Well-intentioned though he may be, Omar Abdullah seems very badly advised, or else possessed of a political death-wish. In its election campaign the National Conference made a point of underlining that it was seeking a mandate for development, for bijli, sadak, pani. It made no claim to settling masla-e-Kashmir or the Kashmir issue. But once the elections were over, they went along with the Indian establishment, which trumpeted the turnout as a decisive mandate in India's favour. The inability of Omar Abdullah's government to reach out to the people of the Valley in the past fortnight is a timely reminder of the dangers of that delusion. In just a little over 10 days, the protests have damaged the patina of normalcy that the election 'success' painted on a deeply troubled situation. In the middle of all this, but almost buried by events, the J&K police announced the arrest of Constable Nazir Ahmed of the India Reserve Police battalion for allegedly raping a minor girl in Baramulla in north Kashmir. (They admitted the constable was a former Personal Security Officer of Ghulam Hassan Mir, legislator and former minister). Days after the incident, a scuffle between the families of the victim and the policeman led to the tragic killing of the victim's grandmother. Both incidents of the past fortnight must be placed next to one from a few years ago, when the infamous "sex scandal" led to huge protests, bringing Srinagar to a grinding halt. That was a tawdry tale of the sexual exploitation of vulnerable women, including the prostitution of minors. It was on a massive scale, with the involvement of politicians , senior bureaucrats, police and paramilitary officers. The scandal exposed the ugly networks of power and oppression, which prop up the structures of control in Kashmir. It also laid bare the vulnerability of women all over the Valley, prey to the brutal arrogance unleashed by 20 years of intense militarization and unbridled power. It's a good time to remember that the acquisition of land for the Amarnath yatra was only the spark that set off last summer's protests. But the real fuel was widespread resentment about the fact that thousands of acres of agricultural, orchard and forest land is under occupation by the army and paramilitary forces, housing their feared camps and cantonments and vast logistics bases. The Kashmiris' behaviour then turns out to be underpinned by a fairly straightforward political reason: we don't need to delve into their fragile 'psyche'. This week, the lights behind the curtain are being moved around to give the illusion of change: the CRPF's duties are to be handed over to the J&K police. If true, this will need massive local police recruitment and give a disturbing new twist to the Indian government's promise of employment to young Kashmiris. (However, from the Establishment's point of view, a policeman in every home may well be a solution to Kashmir's troubles.) But this change of guard will not alter the lives of ordinary people. They do not care if the oppressive figure of the soldier wears the uniform of the Indian Army, its paramilitary forces, or is their neighbour in brand new fatigues. Such shallow transformation is not new: people remember the 'disbanding' of the dreaded Special Operations Group, which was simply merged into regular police operations; or the highly public way in which the CRPF replaced the BSF in Srinagar, leaving the countryside in the Army's iron grip. This summer's protest is not just about the rape and murder of two women, the violation of human rights, or even the repeal of some draconian law. The shadow play must not distract us from the real issue, which is the extraordinary and intolerable militarization of Kashmir. Sanjay Kak is a filmmaker whose most recent documentary 'Jashn-e-Azadi' explores the conflict in Kashmir From anivar.aravind at gmail.com Sun Jun 14 09:41:52 2009 From: anivar.aravind at gmail.com (Anivar Aravind) Date: Sun, 14 Jun 2009 09:41:52 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] CPM, CBI, CIA AND OTHER DEMONS Message-ID: <35f96d470906132111x7de2d033n8def63342af4fffd@mail.gmail.com> CPM, CBI, CIA AND OTHER DEMONS by Srividya Thazhathu Tags: CPM, keralam, men | 3 comments | 228 views http://thefishpond.in/2009/06/cpm-cbi-cia-and-other-demons/ Keralam, I have always felt, is an enormous saloon designed exclusively for men. A dingy joint jam-packed with receding hairlines, thick mustaches and prosperous beards in various shades engaged in political chat round the clock. No wonder, it immediately reminds one of those god forsaken humid towns in Marquezian tales bustling with insomniac mosquitoes, idealist revolutionaries, lampoons, hired assassins and women of all kinds eagerly looking forward to the end of the world. (And no wonder Marquez is such an icon of Mallu men) Let me make it clear at the outset itself that I am not assuming a moralistic female-outsider position with no role in this gargantuan shit. I damn well know I am part and parcel of it. It’s just that post-Lavalin the place has become absolutely unbearable. All men, it seems are desperately trying to slip into the rugged faces and masks of Pinarayi Vijayan, V.S Achuthanandan and Jayarajan(s) Everybody is in the queue to enroll as either fan or foe. The television interlocutors and their expert guests are the classic instances. Even the virtual space is dominated by such dim wits that your inbox resembles the municipal wall in Thalassery! The guys who sit at all headquarters, I think, just adore mystery. It must be that the majority of them are above or around fifty; a generation that grew up on a staple diet of CID stories in print and on screen. They love to believe that CIA is loitering on their lots and they will be kidnapped in the middle of night and whisked away to some exotic penal island with kinky torture devices. How I wish it was true! -- "The resources of the world are for us all to share. Let us affirm our faith in that common cause" - Dr. Ilina Sen From rashneek at gmail.com Sun Jun 14 10:34:30 2009 From: rashneek at gmail.com (rashneek kher) Date: Sun, 14 Jun 2009 10:34:30 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Election Forecast In-Reply-To: <591129.50153.qm@web57205.mail.re3.yahoo.com> References: <591129.50153.qm@web57205.mail.re3.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <13df7c120906132204g4fb97babg2500333518096951@mail.gmail.com> Dear Kshmendra, While I may tend to agree with your history of Jaziya,your comment that"In current times, "Jaziya paid by Non-Muslims" could perhaps best be explained as being equivalent to "Zakaat paid by Muslims" makes me wonder While Zakat is a voluntary exercise Jaziya is an imposed one.Zakat is paid as per ones capacity while Jaziya is fixed and has to be paid as a tax by non-muslims as protection money.Your comparision,I am afraid is incorrect. Best Regards Rashneek On Sat, Jun 13, 2009 at 3:00 PM, Kshmendra Kaul wrote: > There are some practices that pre-date Islam (in terms of Quran-Mohammad) > but found themselves 'sanctified' through the Quran and/or the > reported words/practices of Mohammad. "Jaziya" is one such Practice/Law. > > There are many explanations and interpretations given for "Jaziya" with > respect to 'Non-Muslim individuals' and 'entities conquered through war or > threatened with war'. > > In current times, "Jaziya paid by Non-Muslims" could perhaps best be > explained as being equivalent to "Zakaat paid by Muslims" > > Kshmendra > > > --- On Fri, 6/12/09, S. Jabbar wrote: > > > From: S. Jabbar > Subject: Re: [Reader-list] Election Forecast > To: "Vedavati Jogi" , "Rakesh Iyer" < > rakesh.rnbdj at gmail.com> > Cc: "Sarai" > Date: Friday, June 12, 2009, 2:21 PM > > > The people in the NWFP who imposed a tax on non-Muslims in the name of > Islam > are brigands. They are also known collectively as the Taliban, a feared > entity who have wreaked greater havoc on the lives of Muslims in the area. > > Jaziya is commonly and mistakenly seen as an inherent Islamic practice, a > fundamental tenet of Islam, where in fact the Arabs simply continued the > practice of levying a poll tax on subject races in their newly conquered > territories. > > The practice of poll tax was instituted by the Sassanid Empire, which ruled > a vast swathe of land which included the Caucasus, Iraq, southern Central > Asia, Iran and Afghanistan from 205 CE for 400 years, much before the birth > of Islam. > > The Sassanids, incidentally, were Zoroastrian, ancestors of the people we > know as Parsis. > > > > > > From: Vedavati Jogi > > Date: Wed, 20 May 2009 10:25:13 +0530 (IST) > > To: Rakesh Iyer > > Cc: > > Subject: Re: [Reader-list] Election Forecast > > > > after reading secular mails on this readers list i am thoroughly > convinced > > that very soon india will be a muslim country because muslims are going > to > > outnumber hindus by 2050 and hindus will have to pay jizia (the way sikhs > in > > pakistan are paying) > > ( unfortunately or fortunately )muslims don't > > descriminate between seculars and others > for them hindus are hindus and not > > brahmins/dalits/marathas/seculars/communals etc. > so all of us - you as well > > as me will have to pay jizia. > > be mentally ( and financially also) > > prepared. > > vedavati > > --- On Mon, 18/5/09, Rakesh Iyer > > wrote: > > > From: Rakesh Iyer > > > Subject: Re: [Reader-list] Election Forecast > To: > > "anupam chakravartty" > Cc: "sarai list" > > > Date: Monday, 18 May, 2009, 5:20 PM > > > Dear > > Vedavati > > Before pointing fingers at others, look at oneself. Considering the > > demand > of Hindus like you, if BJP were to come to power (either as coalition > > or on > their own), the sword would be hanging on the head of the minorities as > > to > when their women would be raped, their children would be left > > parent-less > and when their lives would be destroyed. It's certainly good that > > UPA has > come to power, and now we have one less issue to focus upon (which > > is > minority rights), at least upto a certain extent. > > When the NDA was in > > power, we had to focus on jokers like Praveen Togadia, > Ashok Singhal, Acharya > > Dharmendra, some more useless sadhus and mahants, and > also Modi mania. > > Unnecessarily at some point of time or other, there would > be some nonsense > > shilanyas and some daan or the other. At least under the > UPA, such useless > > antics are out. While Kandhamal, Karnataka and Mangalore > indeed have taken > > place, at least a widespread pogrom has not taken place. > > And as for > > Bangladesh and Pakistan, thanks to Hindus like you, I can say > comfortably that > > if people like you were to come to power (in any party or > form), we would > > become a Hindu rashtra where our minorities would be living > worse than second > > class citizens. And you are not a secular anyway, and you > are a Hindu. > > India > > is secular not because Hindus are in majority. India is secular > because > > majority of the people live as a secular society does (irrespective > of whether > > they believe in secularism). They don't want conflicts for > umpteen no. of > > reasons. And they can see through the political game of our > Hindutva and > > fundamentalist Islamic friends. > > As for Muslim nations which are secular, go > > to Turkey, Indonesia and > Malaysia. > > Regards > > Rakesh > > PS: I wonder where our > > Modi bhai is, now that results are out for the > general election. Everybody is > > talking about Advani not talking to media. > Seems Modi is another version of > > Advani. When things are going against him, > he is the first one (like Advani) > > to hide and run away. And he is supposedly > the 'next PM' candidate of BJP in > > 2014. > > Jaisa Guru, waisa chela........jai > > ho!! > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion > > list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an > > email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with subscribe in the subject > > header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > > > List archive: > > > > > Cricket on your mind? Visit the ultimate cricket website. Enter > > http://beta.cricket.yahoo.com > _________________________________________ > reader > > -list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & > > Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net > > with subscribe in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: > > https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: > > > > > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > subscribe in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: > > > > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > subscribe in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: -- Rashneek Kher http://www.kashmiris-in-exile.blogspot.com http://www.nietzschereborn.blogspot.com From invite+off26yoy at facebookmail.com Sun Jun 14 13:08:39 2009 From: invite+off26yoy at facebookmail.com (Bhavya Srivastava) Date: Sun, 14 Jun 2009 00:38:39 -0700 Subject: [Reader-list] =?utf-8?b?4KSu4KWH4KSw4KWAIEZhY2Vib29rIOCkquCljQ==?= =?utf-8?b?4KSw4KWL4KSr4KS84KS+4KSH4KSyIOCkpuClh+CkluClh+Ckgg==?= Message-ID: नमस्ते reader-list at sarai.net, मैंने Facebook रूपरेखा बनाई है जहाँ पर मैं अपने चित्र, वीडियो, और इवेंट्स पोस्ट कर सकता/सकती हूँ और मैं आपको मित्र के रूप में शामिल करना चाहता/चाहती हूँ ताकि आप भी उन्हें देख सकें. सबसे पहले आप Facebook से जुडें! एक बार आप Facebook से जुड़ जाएँ, तो आप भी अपनी Facebook प्रोफ़ाइल बना सकते हैं. धन्यवाद Bhavya Facebook पर साइन अप करने के लिए नीचे दिए गए लिंक का पालन करें: http://www.facebook.com/p.php?i=520831675&k=R4B5546ZR32MXCL1TC2TU&r Bhavya Srivastava से Facebook का सदस्य बनने के लिए reader-list at sarai.net मांगा गया. यदि भविष्य में आप Facebook से इस प्रकार के ईमेल प्राप्त न करना चाहते हों तो कृपया अनसब्सक्राइब करने के लिए नीचे दिए गए लिंक पर क्लिक करें. http://www.facebook.com/o.php?k=cc85c8&u=718051484&mid=9ea62dG2acc989cG0G8 Facebook के ऑफ़िस 1601 S. California Ave., Palo Alto, CA 94304 में मौजूद है. From kshmendra2005 at yahoo.com Sun Jun 14 14:53:15 2009 From: kshmendra2005 at yahoo.com (Kshmendra Kaul) Date: Sun, 14 Jun 2009 02:23:15 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Reader-list] Justice for Nilofer and Asiya Message-ID: <287058.29546.qm@web57205.mail.re3.yahoo.com> Dear Aditya   """ In this hour of grief we are with the family of the victims. May God give them power to overcome this grief .We at Roots in Kashmir will do our best to ensure that the family gets justice. Although we are in exile,yet we mourn alongside the family of the victims."""""   This is a welcome attitude from "Roots in Kashmir" (RIK). Thanks.   Kshmendra --- On Sat, 6/13/09, Aditya Raj Kaul wrote: From: Aditya Raj Kaul Subject: [Reader-list] Justice for Nilofer and Asiya To: "sarai list" Date: Saturday, June 13, 2009, 3:18 PM Justice for Nilofer and Asiya *Visit *- http://kashmiris-in-exile.blogspot.com/2009/06/justice-for-nilofer-and-asiya.html Shopian looks like a ghost town today. There are no people on the streets. The shops are shut wide and the atmosphere of gloom looms large over an otherwise bustling suburb. The rape and murder of two young women has left the town full of bitterness, anger and hopelessness. There obviously are no two ways about the fact that the ghastly murder and rape should invite severest possible criticism with a strong call for finding the perpetrators of this heinous crime and punishing them in a manner as to make an example of them. But here we are. The young prince dismissed their rape and killing as a simple case of drowning. As a Chief Minister of the State shouldn’t he have been a little more prudent than this clownish dad. He should have at-least bothered to know the depth of the water in Rembyaer Nallah in this season. As someone who has crossed this Nallah even without his knees getting wet I must say that the Chief Minister was at his apathetic and ignorant best. Little did he realise that a man as perverse as Yasin Malik or Bitta Karate is roaming free to commit more crimes. The day the badly bruised bodies of Nilofer and Asiya were recovered, they bore marks of what seemed like molestation if not rape. Their clothes were torn and bodies disfigured. Yet the Police dismissed it as a case of drowning. Forensic reports now confirm the rape of a pregnant Nilofer and a studious and intelligent Asiya. *Two grown up women drowning in knee deep water! * This led to huge protests all over the valley. A simple word of acceptance of the crimecould have avoided all that happened later. The separatists were quick to latch on some food. After all the Young Prince had given them a stick to beat with which they could beat him, the army, the establishment and India. The beastly Mehbooba wasn’t the one to be left behind. Despite the fact that her party-men were beaten on way to Shopian, she looked at it as opportunity she was in no mood to let go off. The sexually frustrated Asiya Andrabi too took to streets with her band of Dark Scary Images. *The calls for justice soon got lost in the din of cries for Azadi and removal for AFSPA. * This obviously is no time for politicking. Unequivocally we condemn the State governments handling of this entire episode. What was ideally a law an order problem has now spun into a huge controversy thanks to the kid who our National Media projects as the best thing to have happened to India after the birth of Mahatma Gandhi. Apart from firing the SP of Shopian(who obviously deserves to be fired) the Chief Minister should also have resigned for the way he led Kashmir to one more crisis. *Nilofer’s husband, Shakeel Ahmed has said time and again that he wants justice and not Azadi. Unfortunately what he gets is denials and more denials and now an enquiry commission. The State ought to show its concern for its people irrespective of their political alignments. But then that virtue is lost long time back.* *In this hour of grief we are with the family of the victims. May God give them power to overcome this grief .We at Roots in Kashmir will do our best to ensure that the family gets justice. Although we are in exile,yet we mourn alongside the family of the victims. The need of the hour is that the Chief Minister personally meets the family and apologises for his errant comments and asks the commission to submit a report in a time bound manner and then act fast to punish the culprits of this sick crime. It may not bring them their dear ones back but at-least it would restore the confidence of the people in the State. * *pls do leave your comments here - http://kashmiris-in-exile.blogspot.com/2009/06/justice-for-nilofer-and-asiya.html * *thanks* *Aditya Raj Kaul* _________________________________________ reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. Critiques & Collaborations To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with subscribe in the subject header. To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> From kshmendra2005 at yahoo.com Sun Jun 14 15:46:46 2009 From: kshmendra2005 at yahoo.com (Kshmendra Kaul) Date: Sun, 14 Jun 2009 03:16:46 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Reader-list] Election Forecast Message-ID: <510677.97619.qm@web57207.mail.re3.yahoo.com> Dear Rashneek   Thanks for pointing it out.   I worded myself poorly and it certainly appears as if it is my judgement/suggestion. It is amongst the many viewpoints expressed on the issue of "Jaziya".   Digressing ...... "Zakaat" is not voluntary but mandatory in an Islamic system.   The problem faced by Islamic countries is that if they strictly follow the Islamic traditions and precepts, where will they get the Revenues for running the country.   In earlier times these Revenues came from "Protection", "Bounties", "Gifts" etc. Which is not practicable now. "Zakaat" was meant to be only for servicing the needs of the poor to be collected and distributed by the State.   That is why, on the issue of "Zakaat", there are viewpoints that the one-fortieth of wealth (and other norms for Trade, Farm-Produce, Gold-Ownership) are only advisories from "traditions" and can be altered as per the requirements of the country.  This widening of the umbrella of "Zakaat" is to avoid using a system that can be seen as being "Taxation" which is considered to be Un-Islamic.   You can see the natural progression of that idea to "Jaziya" for Non-Muslims since asking for "Zakaat" from them might be the sanctifying of their status as "Dhimmis"   Of course, the resource rich (Oil, Gas) Islamic countries do not have to contend with "Revenues" problems.   Kshmendra --- On Sun, 6/14/09, rashneek kher wrote: From: rashneek kher Subject: Re: [Reader-list] Election Forecast To: "Kshmendra Kaul" Cc: "S. Jabbar" , "Sarai" Date: Sunday, June 14, 2009, 10:34 AM Dear Kshmendra,   While I may tend to agree with your history of Jaziya,your comment that"In current times, "Jaziya paid by Non-Muslims" could perhaps best be explained as being equivalent to "Zakaat paid by Muslims" makes me wonder While Zakat is a voluntary exercise Jaziya is an imposed one.Zakat is paid as per ones capacity while Jaziya is fixed and has to be paid as a tax by non-muslims as protection money.Your comparision,I am afraid is incorrect.   Best Regards   Rashneek On Sat, Jun 13, 2009 at 3:00 PM, Kshmendra Kaul wrote: There are some practices that pre-date Islam (in terms of Quran-Mohammad) but found themselves 'sanctified' through the Quran and/or the reported words/practices of Mohammad. "Jaziya" is one such Practice/Law.   There are many explanations and interpretations given for "Jaziya" with respect to 'Non-Muslim individuals' and 'entities conquered through war or threatened with war'.   In current times, "Jaziya paid by Non-Muslims" could perhaps best be explained as being equivalent to "Zakaat paid by Muslims"   Kshmendra   --- On Fri, 6/12/09, S. Jabbar wrote: From: S. Jabbar Subject: Re: [Reader-list] Election Forecast To: "Vedavati Jogi" , "Rakesh Iyer" Cc: "Sarai" Date: Friday, June 12, 2009, 2:21 PM The people in the NWFP who imposed a tax on non-Muslims in the name of Islam are brigands.  They are also known collectively as the Taliban, a feared entity who have wreaked greater havoc on the lives of Muslims in the area. Jaziya is commonly and mistakenly seen as an inherent Islamic practice, a fundamental tenet of Islam, where in fact the Arabs simply continued the practice of levying a poll tax on subject races in their newly conquered territories.  The practice of poll tax was instituted by the Sassanid Empire, which ruled a vast swathe of land which included the Caucasus, Iraq, southern Central Asia, Iran and Afghanistan from 205 CE for 400 years, much before the birth of Islam.  The Sassanids, incidentally, were Zoroastrian, ancestors of the people we know as Parsis.  > From: Vedavati Jogi > Date: Wed, 20 May 2009 10:25:13 +0530 (IST) > To: Rakesh Iyer > Cc: > Subject: Re: [Reader-list] Election Forecast > > after reading secular mails on this readers list i am thoroughly convinced > that very soon india will be a muslim country because muslims are going to > outnumber hindus by 2050 and hindus will have to pay jizia (the way sikhs in > pakistan are paying)   ( unfortunately or fortunately )muslims don't > descriminate between seculars and others for them hindus are hindus and not > brahmins/dalits/marathas/seculars/communals etc. so all of us - you as well > as me will have to pay jizia.   be mentally ( and financially also) > prepared.   vedavati --- On Mon, 18/5/09, Rakesh Iyer > wrote: From: Rakesh Iyer > Subject: Re: [Reader-list] Election Forecast To: > "anupam chakravartty" Cc: "sarai list" > Date: Monday, 18 May, 2009, 5:20 PM Dear > Vedavati Before pointing fingers at others, look at oneself. Considering the > demand of Hindus like you, if BJP were to come to power (either as coalition > or on their own), the sword would be hanging on the head of the minorities as > to when their women would be raped, their children would be left > parent-less and when their lives would be destroyed. It's certainly good that > UPA has come to power, and now we have one less issue to focus upon (which > is minority rights), at least upto a certain extent. When the NDA was in > power, we had to focus on jokers like Praveen Togadia, Ashok Singhal, Acharya > Dharmendra, some more useless sadhus and mahants, and also Modi mania. > Unnecessarily at some point of time or other, there would be some nonsense > shilanyas and some daan or the other. At least under the UPA, such useless > antics are out. While Kandhamal, Karnataka and Mangalore indeed have taken > place, at least a widespread pogrom has not taken place. And as for > Bangladesh and Pakistan, thanks to Hindus like you, I can say comfortably that > if people like you were to come to power (in any party or form), we would > become a Hindu rashtra where our minorities would be living worse than second > class citizens. And you are not a secular anyway, and you are a Hindu. India > is secular not because Hindus are in majority. India is secular because > majority of the people live as a secular society does (irrespective of whether > they believe in secularism). They don't want conflicts for umpteen no. of > reasons. And they can see through the political game of our Hindutva and > fundamentalist Islamic friends. As for Muslim nations which are secular, go > to Turkey, Indonesia and Malaysia. Regards Rakesh PS: I wonder where our > Modi bhai is, now that results are out for the general election. Everybody is > talking about Advani not talking to media. Seems Modi is another version of > Advani. When things are going against him, he is the first one (like Advani) > to hide and run away. And he is supposedly the 'next PM' candidate of BJP in > 2014. Jaisa Guru, waisa chela........jai > ho!! _________________________________________ reader-list: an open discussion > list on media and the city. Critiques & Collaborations To subscribe: send an > email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with subscribe in the subject > header. To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: > Cricket on your mind? Visit the ultimate cricket website. Enter > http://beta.cricket.yahoo.com _________________________________________ reader > -list: an open discussion list on media and the city. Critiques & > Collaborations To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net > with subscribe in the subject header. To unsubscribe: > https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list List archive: > _________________________________________ reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. Critiques & Collaborations To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with subscribe in the subject header. To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list List archive: _________________________________________ reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. Critiques & Collaborations To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with subscribe in the subject header. To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list List archive: -- Rashneek Kher http://www.kashmiris-in-exile.blogspot.com http://www.nietzschereborn.blogspot.com From kshmendra2005 at yahoo.com Sun Jun 14 16:13:44 2009 From: kshmendra2005 at yahoo.com (Kshmendra Kaul) Date: Sun, 14 Jun 2009 03:43:44 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Reader-list] Election Forecast Message-ID: <52358.73248.qm@web57204.mail.re3.yahoo.com> Dear Sonia   You brought in the comparison with "Hafta". Well that is exactly what "Jaziya" is. It is 'protection money'.   Agree with you that there is no provision in Pakistan's Constitution that would allow imposition of "Jaziya".   In Pakistan, the Taliban, TNSM and others of similar leanings do not accept the validity of the Constitution or the Executive or the Judiciary.   Kshmendra     --- On Sat, 6/13/09, S. Jabbar wrote: From: S. Jabbar Subject: Re: [Reader-list] Election Forecast To: "Kshmendra Kaul" Cc: "Sarai" Date: Saturday, June 13, 2009, 8:33 PM Pakistan is still governed by constitutional law where jaziya does not find a place despite the clamour by some sections to impose the Sharia.  The ‘tax’ imposed by the Taliban is nothing other than ‘hafta’ in the guise of jaziya. From: Kshmendra Kaul Date: Sat, 13 Jun 2009 02:30:20 -0700 (PDT) To: "S. Jabbar" Cc: Sarai Subject: Re: [Reader-list] Election Forecast There are some practices that pre-date Islam (in terms of Quran-Mohammad) but found themselves 'sanctified' through the Quran and/or the reported words/practices of Mohammad. "Jaziya" is one such Practice/Law.   There are many explanations and interpretations given for "Jaziya" with respect to 'Non-Muslim individuals' and 'entities conquered through war or threatened with war'.   In current times, "Jaziya paid by Non-Muslims" could perhaps best be explained as being equivalent to "Zakaat paid by Muslims"   Kshmendra   --- On Fri, 6/12/09, S. Jabbar wrote: From: S. Jabbar Subject: Re: [Reader-list] Election Forecast To: "Vedavati Jogi" , "Rakesh Iyer" Cc: "Sarai" Date: Friday, June 12, 2009, 2:21 PM The people in the NWFP who imposed a tax on non-Muslims in the name of Islam are brigands.  They are also known collectively as the Taliban, a feared entity who have wreaked greater havoc on the lives of Muslims in the area. Jaziya is commonly and mistakenly seen as an inherent Islamic practice, a fundamental tenet of Islam, where in fact the Arabs simply continued the practice of levying a poll tax on subject races in their newly conquered territories.   The practice of poll tax was instituted by the Sassanid Empire, which ruled a vast swathe of land which included the Caucasus, Iraq, southern Central Asia, Iran and Afghanistan from 205 CE for 400 years, much before the birth of Islam.   The Sassanids, incidentally, were Zoroastrian, ancestors of the people we know as Parsis.   > From: Vedavati Jogi > > Date: Wed, 20 May 2009 10:25:13 +0530 (IST) > To: Rakesh Iyer > > Cc: > > Subject: Re: [Reader-list] Election Forecast > > after reading secular mails on this readers list i am thoroughly convinced > that very soon india will be a muslim country because muslims are going to > outnumber hindus by 2050 and hindus will have to pay jizia (the way sikhs in > pakistan are paying)   ( unfortunately or fortunately )muslims don't > descriminate between seculars and others for them hindus are hindus and not > brahmins/dalits/marathas/seculars/communals etc. so all of us - you as well > as me will have to pay jizia.   be mentally ( and financially also) > prepared.   vedavati --- On Mon, 18/5/09, Rakesh Iyer > > wrote: From: Rakesh Iyer > > Subject: Re: [Reader-list] Election Forecast To: > "anupam chakravartty" > Cc: "sarai list" > > Date: Monday, 18 May, 2009, 5:20 PM Dear > Vedavati Before pointing fingers at others, look at oneself. Considering the > demand of Hindus like you, if BJP were to come to power (either as coalition > or on their own), the sword would be hanging on the head of the minorities as > to when their women would be raped, their children would be left > parent-less and when their lives would be destroyed. It's certainly good that > UPA has come to power, and now we have one less issue to focus upon (which > is minority rights), at least upto a certain extent. When the NDA was in > power, we had to focus on jokers like Praveen Togadia, Ashok Singhal, Acharya > Dharmendra, some more useless sadhus and mahants, and also Modi mania. > Unnecessarily at some point of time or other, there would be some nonsense > shilanyas and some daan or the other. At least under the UPA, such useless > antics are out. While Kandhamal, Karnataka and Mangalore indeed have taken > place, at least a widespread pogrom has not taken place. And as for > Bangladesh and Pakistan, thanks to Hindus like you, I can say comfortably that > if people like you were to come to power (in any party or form), we would > become a Hindu rashtra where our minorities would be living worse than second > class citizens. And you are not a secular anyway, and you are a Hindu. India > is secular not because Hindus are in majority. India is secular because > majority of the people live as a secular society does (irrespective of whether > they believe in secularism). They don't want conflicts for umpteen no. of > reasons. And they can see through the political game of our Hindutva and > fundamentalist Islamic friends. As for Muslim nations which are secular, go > to Turkey, Indonesia and Malaysia. Regards Rakesh PS: I wonder where our > Modi bhai is, now that results are out for the general election. Everybody is > talking about Advani not talking to media. Seems Modi is another version of > Advani. When things are going against him, he is the first one (like Advani) > to hide and run away. And he is supposedly the 'next PM' candidate of BJP in > 2014. Jaisa Guru, waisa chela........jai > ho!! _________________________________________ reader-list: an open discussion > list on media and the city. Critiques & Collaborations To subscribe: send an > email to reader-list-request at sarai.net  with subscribe in the subject > header. To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> > Cricket on your mind? Visit the ultimate cricket website. Enter > http://beta.cricket.yahoo.com _________________________________________ reader > -list: an open discussion list on media and the city. Critiques & > Collaborations To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net > with subscribe in the subject header. To unsubscribe: > https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list List archive: > <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> _________________________________________ reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. Critiques & Collaborations To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net  with subscribe in the subject header. To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> From kauladityaraj at gmail.com Sun Jun 14 16:21:34 2009 From: kauladityaraj at gmail.com (Aditya Raj Kaul) Date: Sun, 14 Jun 2009 16:21:34 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Army retreat from J&K will be suicidal Message-ID: <6353c690906140351j5f4f8fa2l7e5c58f6a141abd0@mail.gmail.com> *Army retreat from J&K will be suicidal Ramesh Khazanchi **Sunday June 14, 2009 The Times of India* *Link* - http://blogs.timesofindia.indiatimes.com/Hard-copy/entry/it-s-a-war-keep Kashmir, I admit, is my fixation, for I am a victim of its two-decade-long dalliance with death and destruction. The latest spark adding insult to injury is the reported acceptance by the Union home minister, P Chidambaram, of a proposal from the J&K state leadership seeking the suspension or revocation of the Armed Forces Special Powers Act, 1958 (AFSPA). However, even talk of its revocation could spell doom for the return of normalcy to the violence-ridden valley. Pakistan's ruinous internecine battle within may have its ramifications across the LoC, not by chance but by design. It was Chidambaram's first visit to the valley after he became home minister. Let him lead by example. If he looks soft by the exterior, let it not be mistaken as a sign of weakness. Flexing the iron hand in the velvet glove, I believe, is the need of the hour. If financial wizardry is his forte, strategic planning ought to be his bible in his new role. It is far too pre-mature at this stage to even think of putting on hold the AFSPA let alone its revocation. In any case, the unified Command - which comprises the Army brass, the governor, the chief minister and the Cabinet Committee on Security - has to deliberate the issue before a decision in this regard is made. Legend has it that Kashmir is the land of Kashyap rishi (seer), the eponymous saint who lent the 'vahr' (bowl-shaped) valley its name and identity, exterminated the 'asuras' (demons) who would devour the God-fearing aborigines. Mark, the first syllable is common to both - Kash-yap and Kash-mir. Born and brought up in the paradise-turned-cauldron, like tens of thousands of other Kashmiri Hindus - to be precise Kashmiri Pandits - I have been driven out of my motherland for no fault of mine by none other than the jihadis, brainwashed at a tender age by the scourge-on-earth - the Inter-Services Intelligence (ISI), Pakistan's supra-constitutional 'international-sabotage institution'. Americans have realised it post 9/11 - much, much after we Indians fell victim to Pakistan's machinations and the gory violence it unleashed in a bid to wrest control of the land which never was theirs. For 20 years we suffered at their hands in Punjab, and for the last two decades in Jammu & Kashmir in what is euphemistically termed a low-intensity conflict (LIC). What they failed to attain by outright aggression in 1947, '65 and '71, has been attempted by sowing the seeds of internal strife and secession. Only the Cowboy has gone the whole hog after them as he has the wherewithal and the will to exterminate the scourge. The grand old American democracy has introduced a plethora of all-encompassing legislation, including the Homeland Security Act and US Patriot Act, which permit the DNA profiling of people suspected of terrorist activity against the US or its interests and subjects abroad. That's what nations are legitimately supposed to do to protect their territorial integrity and national sovereignty aimed at securing the life, liberty, business and property of its citizens and allies. Alas, the weak-kneed Indian government has, unlike Americans, failed to stem the tide of home-grown militancy and Pakistan-sponsored insurgency in the state. India, under whichever political dispensation at the Centre, has abysmally failed to turn the adversity into opportunity on many an occasion. The high point being Pakistan's Kargil misadventure, although a godsend for us, we missed the bus again for we failed the nation by not declaring a full-fledged war on all fronts, including the western front and the Karachi harbour. What do we maintain for the Naval behemoth in the Arabian sea? Are we content in letting it be an augmentation of the Coast Guard? There we failed, too, in the wake of the enemy's cloak-and-dagger operation when so-called non-state actors surreptitiously sailed across the high seas to carry out the 26/11 terrorist mission in Mumbai under explicit directions and logistic support by their agent-provocateur across the Radcliffe Line. On November 27, 1997, then Chief Justice of India J S Verma and four other judges of the Supreme Court on a review petition of the AFSPA (in the context of the north-east) observed, "The power to make a law providing for deployment of the armed forces of the Union in aid of the civil power of a State does not include within its ambit the power to enact a law which would enable the armed forces of the Union to supplant or act as a substitute for the civil power in the State. The armed forces of the Union would operate in the State concerned in cooperation with the civil administration so that the situation which has necessitated the deployment of armed forces is effectively dealt with and normalcy is restored." It is explicit in the judgment that the Army will act "in aid of the civil administration of the state"... until "normalcy is restored." Keeping in view the recent successful bids by the battle-hardened militants to infiltrate into the valley under heavy arms fire-cover provided by the Pakistan army coupled with the melting snow at the high mountain passes, the situation does not warrant any lowering of guard by the armed forces which alone are trained and equipped to fight the Talibanized insurgents. However, Rashtriya Rifles, which has borne the brunt of militant attacks and in turn broken the backbone of the insurgency in J&K, does act hand in hand with the state police and the paramilitary forces. In any case, it is the local police and the paramilitary forces which maintain security in Srinagar and its outskirts. The Army, to all intents and purposes, has since been ordered to the barracks. But any inference that the situation is fast returning to normal and warrants the revocation of the AFSPA would indeed be a retrograde step fraught with dire consequences. The grand old American democracy has introduced a plethora of all-encompassing legislation, including the Homeland Security Act and US Patriot Act, which permit the DNA profiling of people suspected of terrorist activity against the US or its interests and subjects abroad. That's what nations are legitimately supposed to do to protect their territorial integrity and national sovereignty aimed at securing the life, liberty, business and property of its citizens and allies. Kashmir, I admit, is my fixation, for I am a victim of its two-decade-long dalliance with death and destruction. The latest spark adding insult to injury is the reported acceptance by the Union home minister, P Chidambaram, of a proposal from the J&K state leadership seeking the suspension or revocation of the Armed Forces Special Powers Act, 1958 (AFSPA). However, even talk of its revocation could spell doom for the return of normalcy to the violence-ridden valley. Pakistan's ruinous internecine battle within may have its ramifications across the LoC, not by chance but by design. It was Chidambaram's first visit to the valley after he became home minister. Let him lead by example. If he looks soft by the exterior, let it not be mistaken as a sign of weakness. Flexing the iron hand in the velvet glove, I believe, is the need of the hour. If financial wizardry is his forte, strategic planning ought to be his bible in his new role. It is far too pre-mature at this stage to even think of putting on hold the AFSPA let alone its revocation. In any case, the unified Command - which comprises the Army brass, the governor, the chief minister and the Cabinet Committee on Security - has to deliberate the issue before a decision in this regard is made. Legend has it that Kashmir is the land of Kashyap rishi (seer), the eponymous saint who lent the 'vahr' (bowl-shaped) valley its name and identity, exterminated the 'asuras' (demons) who would devour the God-fearing aborigines. Mark, the first syllable is common to both - Kash-yap and Kash-mir. Born and brought up in the paradise-turned-cauldron, like tens of thousands of other Kashmiri Hindus - to be precise Kashmiri Pandits - I have been driven out of my motherland for no fault of mine by none other than the jihadis, brainwashed at a tender age by the scourge-on-earth - the Inter-Services Intelligence (ISI), Pakistan's supra-constitutional 'international-sabotage institution'. Americans have realised it post 9/11 - much, much after we Indians fell victim to Pakistan's machinations and the gory violence it unleashed in a bid to wrest control of the land which never was theirs. For 20 years we suffered at their hands in Punjab, and for the last two decades in Jammu & Kashmir in what is euphemistically termed a low-intensity conflict (LIC). What they failed to attain by outright aggression in 1947, '65 and '71, has been attempted by sowing the seeds of internal strife and secession. Only the Cowboy has gone the whole hog after them as he has the wherewithal and the will to exterminate the scourge. Alas, the weak-kneed Indian government has, unlike Americans, failed to stem the tide of home-grown militancy and Pakistan-sponsored insurgency in the state. India, under whichever political dispensation at the Centre, has abysmally failed to turn the adversity into opportunity on many an occasion. The high point being Pakistan's Kargil misadventure, although a godsend for us, we missed the bus again for we failed the nation by not declaring a full-fledged war on all fronts, including the western front and the Karachi harbour. What do we maintain for the Naval behemoth in the Arabian sea? Are we content in letting it be an augmentation of the Coast Guard? There we failed, too, in the wake of the enemy's cloak-and-dagger operation when so-called non-state actors surreptitiously sailed across the high seas to carry out the 26/11 terrorist mission in Mumbai under explicit directions and logistic support by their agent-provocateur across the Radcliffe Line. On November 27, 1997, then Chief Justice of India J S Verma and four other judges of the Supreme Court on a review petition of the AFSPA (in the context of the north-east) observed, "The power to make a law providing for deployment of the armed forces of the Union in aid of the civil power of a State does not include within its ambit the power to enact a law which would enable the armed forces of the Union to supplant or act as a substitute for the civil power in the State. The armed forces of the Union would operate in the State concerned in cooperation with the civil administration so that the situation which has necessitated the deployment of armed forces is effectively dealt with and normalcy is restored." It is explicit in the judgment that the Army will act "in aid of the civil administration of the state"... until "normalcy is restored." Keeping in view the recent successful bids by the battle-hardened militants to infiltrate into the valley under heavy arms fire-cover provided by the Pakistan army coupled with the melting snow at the high mountain passes, the situation does not warrant any lowering of guard by the armed forces which alone are trained and equipped to fight the Talibanized insurgents. However, Rashtriya Rifles, which has borne the brunt of militant attacks and in turn broken the backbone of the insurgency in J&K, does act hand in hand with the state police and the paramilitary forces. In any case, it is the local police and the paramilitary forces which maintain security in Srinagar and its outskirts. The Army, to all intents and purposes, has since been ordered to the barracks. But any inference that the situation is fast returning to normal and warrants the revocation of the AFSPA would indeed be a retrograde step fraught with dire consequences. From indersalim at gmail.com Sun Jun 14 16:27:57 2009 From: indersalim at gmail.com (Inder Salim) Date: Sun, 14 Jun 2009 16:27:57 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] 'Men in uniform are Kashmir's problem, not solution' In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <47e122a70906140357o11774366i247e6789a702de72@mail.gmail.com> thanks for forward Mr . kapoor ... with army jawans it is a must to teach the enemy a lesson. the lessons are usually carried out by SPECAAL OPERATION GROUPS who are beyond the purview of Law or a simple enquiry. So needless of say that why we have witnessed a large scale disaappearances of Men in Kashmir, eliminated without trail often. A HoD of Kashmir University , a close friend, was picked once by Army in Anantnag and released after three days, that too because he managed to arrange a meeting with a senior officer in Bahinal prison who accidentally hapened to listen to his request, and was subsequenlty released. .Normally, it is the angry Jawan in uniform who controls the street or an area and decides on the spot about the the person in sight. Rape is one such lesson. I was once myself caught by Army jawans in Srinagar, it was cufew time, and even after showing my I.card i was punished to perform Murga ( chicken ) and then made to run.. The 'run' word those days meant to shoot the runner from behind and label him as offender of curfew or a terrorist etc. The men in uniform are supposed to be orderly, a friend in kashmir told me once, while he agreed that militants usually come from weired backgrounds and can do many bad things,.But, unfortunately Army record in kahmir is very very poor in this regard, Few years back i happened to photograph two army jawans, a local man and two girls, I could not dare to go near, and photographed them from a distance. may click to see: http://indersalim.livejournal.com/37697.html Ir echoes what has happned in Shopian, recently, alas. The Army should withdraw from towns and villages, without a second thought Kashmir issue has nothing to do with this unwanted amry presence in each and every corner of kashmir. love is On Sun, Jun 14, 2009 at 5:27 AM, Harsh Kapoor wrote: > > http://tinyurl.com/muga5v > > 'Men in uniform are Kashmir's problem, not solution' > > by Sanjay Kak > (The Times of India, 14 Jun 2009) > > Those who use the media filter to try to understand what is happening > in Kashmir should realize they're looking at a shadow play. A curtain > lies > between events and us. What is played out on the screen depends on who > manipulates the sources of light. > > Last summer, the Valley was overwhelmed by several months of > unprecedented non-violent public protest. It was triggered by the > complicated Amarnath land issue, but on the streets the people were > saying "Hum kya chahte? Azadi!" We are hearing this again this summer, > triggered by the rape and murder of two young women from Shopian in > south Kashmir. Only the stone deaf could miss the cry. > > Between these two summer uprisings came the Assembly elections of > December. As everyone braced for a boycott, people did turn out to > vote. This surprise turnout was presented as nothing short of a > miracle and we were informed that this was "a vote for Indian > democracy". Those who wondered why people who had braved bullets only > a month ago should suddenly queue up to vote were reminded that > Kashmiris were an unpredictable, even contrary, people. > > In fact, there is a frightening consistence about the Kashmiri chant > for decades: "Hum kya chahte? Azadi!" Protests have begun for all > sorts of reasons but they are a manifestation of the simmering anger > always close to the surface. > > The current round of protests were given a head-start by the > distinctly amateur vacillations of the state chief minister, not least > his puzzling shifts on what may have actually happened to Nilofar, 22, > and her sister-in-law Asiya, 17, on the night of May 29. > Well-intentioned though he may be, Omar Abdullah seems very badly > advised, or else possessed of a political death-wish. > > In its election campaign the National Conference made a point of > underlining that it was seeking a mandate for development, for bijli, > sadak, pani. It made no claim to settling masla-e-Kashmir or the > Kashmir issue. But once the elections were over, they went along with > the Indian establishment, which trumpeted the turnout as a decisive > mandate in India's favour. The inability of Omar Abdullah's government > to reach out to the people of the Valley in the past fortnight is a > timely reminder of the dangers of that delusion. In just a little over > 10 days, the protests have damaged the patina of normalcy that the > election 'success' painted on a deeply troubled situation. > > In the middle of all this, but almost buried by events, the J&K police > announced the arrest of Constable Nazir Ahmed of the India Reserve > Police battalion for allegedly raping a minor girl in Baramulla in > north Kashmir. (They admitted the constable was a former Personal > Security Officer of Ghulam Hassan Mir, legislator and former > minister). Days after the incident, a scuffle between the families of > the victim and the policeman led to the tragic killing of the victim's > grandmother. > > Both incidents of the past fortnight must be placed next to one from a > few years ago, when the infamous "sex scandal" led to huge protests, > bringing Srinagar to a grinding halt. That was a tawdry tale of the > sexual exploitation of vulnerable women, including the prostitution of > minors. It was on a massive scale, with the involvement of politicians > , senior bureaucrats, police and paramilitary officers. The scandal > exposed the ugly networks of power and oppression, which prop up the > structures of control in Kashmir. It also laid bare the vulnerability > of women all over the Valley, prey to the brutal arrogance unleashed > by 20 years of intense militarization and unbridled power. > > It's a good time to remember that the acquisition of land for the > Amarnath yatra was only the spark that set off last summer's protests. > But the real fuel was widespread resentment about the fact that > thousands of acres of agricultural, orchard and forest land is under > occupation by the army and paramilitary forces, housing their feared > camps and cantonments and vast logistics bases. The Kashmiris' > behaviour then turns out to be underpinned by a fairly straightforward > political reason: we don't need to delve into their fragile 'psyche'. > > This week, the lights behind the curtain are being moved around to > give the illusion of change: the CRPF's duties are to be handed over > to the J&K police. If true, this will need massive local police > recruitment and give a disturbing new twist to the Indian government's > promise of employment to young Kashmiris. (However, from the > Establishment's point of view, a policeman in every home may well be a > solution to Kashmir's troubles.) > > But this change of guard will not alter the lives of ordinary people. > They do not care if the oppressive figure of the soldier wears the > uniform of the Indian Army, its paramilitary forces, or is their > neighbour in brand new fatigues. Such shallow transformation is not > new: people remember the 'disbanding' of the dreaded Special > Operations Group, which was simply merged into regular police > operations; or the highly public way in which the CRPF replaced the > BSF in Srinagar, leaving the countryside in the Army's iron grip. > > This summer's protest is not just about the rape and murder of two > women, the violation of human rights, or even the repeal of some > draconian law. The shadow play must not distract us from the real > issue, which is the extraordinary and intolerable militarization of > Kashmir. > > Sanjay Kak is a filmmaker whose most recent documentary > 'Jashn-e-Azadi' explores the conflict in Kashmir > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with subscribe in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> -- http://indersalim.livejournal.com From isouweine at gmail.com Sun Jun 14 16:43:59 2009 From: isouweine at gmail.com (Isaac souweine) Date: Sun, 14 Jun 2009 19:13:59 +0800 Subject: [Reader-list] Gap Minder In-Reply-To: <65be9bf40906082146vf23e945m205b6c0fc95ba6e3@mail.gmail.com> References: <0ABE6237-A4F1-49CA-9C78-8BAEF0448E28@sarai.net> <65be9bf40906082146vf23e945m205b6c0fc95ba6e3@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <34bf33330906140413x2e0e7cejf0f59ce949dedfc9@mail.gmail.com> Hi All - Here is another cool data visualization project. http://manyeyes.alphaworks.ibm.com/manyeyes/ Not sure what angle IBM has on this, but pretty nice to see what they have done. Also, interesting note on Gapminder: the technology, called "trendalyzer", is from Swedish academics (I believe), but as of 2006, it is now the property of Google. State of the world I guess. Finally, I wonder if there is a way to take the discussion of these types of technology passed the nostrum of "lies, damn lies. . ". For me, the correlations highlighted by these programs represent a boon to political discourse and rational decision making. More generally, the overlap of aesthetics and epistemology implied by these technologies is something that I would think list members would be well-positioned to discuss. Best, Isaac On Tue, Jun 9, 2009 at 12:46 PM, Taha Mehmood <2tahamehmood at googlemail.com>wrote: > Sure Monica!! > > The visuals seem to be stunning. > > The broad argument comes across as- with the rise in income- life > expectancy at birth increases, child mortality decreases, literacy > increases, and registered citizen decreases. Interesting, isn't it? > > However, I was a bit wary of the ease with which such data could be > manipulated given that sourcing seems to be absent. > > Also there seems to be a problem in representation. > > For instance, a caveat listed on the site states that- 'The Kashmir > district has been included as an Indian territory only in order to > show the internal inequities of different Indian states and their > changes over time, and this does not represent or indicate any > political opinions of Gapminder Foundation.' > > It is not clear what do they mean by 'The Kashmir district'??? Do we > have a district of Kashmir anywhere in the world??? > > Moreover all the Maps concerning India do not show the official GOI > representation of the political map of India. > > I wonder why Data regarding registered citizens is given in absolutes > and not as a percentage of population as in other cases? What does it > mean to know that there are 177 849 749 registered citizens in UP in > 2006??? > > Adult literacy is defined on the site as people who could read and > write a simple statement about their everyday life. We of course know, > that's the standard UNESCO definition. If this is the case, then I > really do not know how much of reality-as-it-is, is represented by > this slick software. Do all, so called adult literates of India can > really read and write a simple statement about their everyday life???? > I highly doubt it. > > Most of the data is correlated with income/person which uses 1990 PPP > international dollar as counting unit. Why??? we don't know. This > seems to be so arbitrary. Even Gapminder people seem to acknowledge it > in the caveat section- 'this data set is not up-to-date and quality > not satisfactory'. Now they want to shift to 2005. Why??? again we are > kept guessing. > > The punchline goes 'Unveiling the beauty of statistics for a fact > based world view', huh!! I think the apparent certainty and simplicity > of the visual cartography is pretty terrifying. > > Maybe someone should start compiling a counter site on lies, damned > lies and statistics. Now, wouldn't that be pretty ;) > > Regards > > Taha > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > subscribe in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> > From kshmendra2005 at yahoo.com Sun Jun 14 16:48:13 2009 From: kshmendra2005 at yahoo.com (Kshmendra Kaul) Date: Sun, 14 Jun 2009 04:18:13 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Reader-list] Pasmanda Intellectuals' Forum Questions... Message-ID: <906681.85737.qm@web57204.mail.re3.yahoo.com>   You might like to read through the following:   - "Islam And Caste Inequality Among Indian Muslims" http://www.countercurrents.org/sikand150204.htm   --- On Sat, 6/13/09, M Javed wrote: From: M Javed Subject: Re: [Reader-list] Pasmanda Intellectuals' Forum Questions... To: "arshad amanullah" Cc: reader-list at sarai.net Date: Saturday, June 13, 2009, 9:59 PM Dear Arshad I have never figured out if I am a pasmanda or ashraf or ajlaf. How does one find that out. I don't have a tag of a caste or sub-caste with my name, nor have I ever been told by my parents or family about it. And how do the selectors of a job like a VC find out if a candidate is a pasmanda or ashraf. Apparently "Ansaris" are supposed to be the ajlaf or pasmanda, but Hamid Ansari (our vice-president) and so many other Ansaris have been among the elite of the Muslims for so many generations. So how does it work out then. Javed On 6/13/09, arshad amanullah wrote: > [With apologies for X-posting] > > An Open Letter to the President Ms. Pratibha Patil > > > The last two decades in Indian democracy have witnessed wider > acknowledgement and interrogation of the disproportionate hegemony of > upper castes in the structures of power. Quite clearly such overt > domination of a few elite oligarchic caste groups in decision making > processes runs against the pluralist and democratic ambitions of the > Indian Constitution. The persistence of such trends does not augur > well for the future of this nation. > > The legitimacy of the category of caste in non-Hindu (minority) > communities is now officially established. The inclusion of 82 Muslim > caste groups in the OBC list of the Mandal Commission Report in 1990 > was a watershed event in this context. The presence of caste in Muslim > community is also reaffirmed by the recent Sachhar Committee Report > and the report of the Ranganath Mishra Commission on Linguistic > Minorities. > > Moreover, apart from the official recognition there is a strong > movement among the dalit/backward caste Muslims that is gaining ground > in North India (especially UP and Bihar). The movement is called the > ‘Pasmanda Movement’ and it is articulating the anxiety and anger of > the Pasmanda Muslim sections over their blatant social exclusion. It > must be borne in mind that the Pasmanda Muslims (dalit/backward caste > Muslims; also called ajlaf and arzal) constitute about 75% of the > Indian Muslim population (the remaining 25% is formed by the upper > caste ashraf Muslims). The politics of numeric should itself suffice > to suggest that their claims can not be taken lightly. The > marginalisation of Pasmanda Muslims from state and community-controlle > d institutions is an issue that perhaps needs to be urgently > addressed. > > In this context, the recent reports about the selection process of the > Vice-Chancellor (VC) of the Jamia Milia Islamiya University (JMI), New > Delhi have once again disappointed the Pasmanda Muslim sections. In > historical terms, ‘Muslim’ institutions like AMU and JMI have > exhibited strong rigidity in accommodating persons from non-ashraf > social locations as VC’s. If the claims of the Pasmanda Movement are > true then not even a single VC in these institutions has been > appointed from the Pasmanda Muslim communities since Independence (Mr. > Hamid Ansari, the former VC of AMU who is usually taken to be a > Pasmanda Muslim arguably comes from an ashraf family). Quite clearly > the empanelment process of the Vice Chancellor in these two > institutions is a strong testimony to such prejudices. > > Recently, a ‘Search Committee’ (comprising Justice Saghir Ahmed, Syed > Hamid and Prof. Yashpal) constituted a panel of five persons for the > Vice Chancellorship of JMI (see: The Indian Express, New Delhi > edition, 12 June 2009) and submitted it to the President (visitor to > the University). The panel includes Mr. Afzal Amanullah, Prof. > Mushirul Hasan, Prof. Faizan Ahmad, Mr. Najeeb Jung and Mr. Mohd > Shakeel Ahmad. While two members in the panel are academics, the rest > are bureaucrats. Remarkably, neither the search committee nor the > panel includes even a single name from non-ashraf Muslim communities! > > There are credible reports that an IAS officer from the UP cadre Mr. > Anis Ansari, who also comes from a Pasmanda biradari, did offer his CV > for the purpose. Moreover, having served as Secretary Agriculture and > as Agricultural Production Controller (APC) of UP twice he did have > the experience of managing and dealing with the affairs of higher > education (including the prestigious Pantnagar Agriculture > University). Besides, he has also served at the level of Additional > Chief Secretary of UP and has held key positions in the departments of > Rural Development, Industry and Urban Development etc. Yet his name > was not deemed fit to be even mentioned in the panel of five. What is > more remarkable is the fact that all the other bureaucrats favoured > over him are either junior to him or had dissociated themselves from > public service by taking voluntary retirement from the IAS way back > (Mr. Najeeb Jung and Mr. Mohd Shakeel Ahmad). The selection process of > the panel clearly underlines the strong and deeply entrenched > prejudice against the Pasmanda Muslim communities. Afterall, what > explains this anomaly and elision if not caste discrimination of the > worst order? > > What is even more intriguing is that India, a nation of one billion > people, is so deficient in human resources that a man in his 80’s, and > with all the problems that old age brings, is allowed to play > arbitrary and decisive roles in the affairs of ‘Muslim’ institutions > in particular and the affairs of the Muslim community in general. > Moreover, this particular person is highly distrusted by the Pasmanda > sections of Muslims and his prejudices against a particular region are > more than evident. He, in the capacity of AMU-VC, outrageously denied > admissions to many students of Bihar. The aggregate of marks awarded > by Bihar School Exam Board were supposed by him to be unduly inflated > and hence he initiated the practice of deducting 5% marks from the > aggregate while preparing the merit list for admissions to 11th > standard in AMU. > > Let us reiterate that all these events are being monitored with > anxious curiosity by the Pasmanda Muslim sections and all democratic > citizens of this country. This is high time that the process of > democratisation is initiated in ‘Muslim’ institutions and other > structures of power. The Search Committee, the Executive Council and > other such bodies of JMI, AMU et cetera must be made socially > representative. > > In this respect, the appointment of the VC for JMI forms the acid test > for Indian democracy and the commitment of the government of the day > to the issues of social justice and social exclusion. The anger and > frustration is brewing in Pasmanda Muslim communities over these > repeated acts and instances of their structural marginalisation. > >  We, therefore, request the President Ms. Pratibha Patil to look into > this matter and do the need-some. Moreover, we urge her to reinitiate > the process of empanelment for the VC of JMI so as to ensure greater > transparency and address the anomalies in the present panel > convincingly. We sincerely hope that she will consider the sentiments > of the huge Pasmanda Muslim masses before arriving at a suitable > decision. > > > 'Pasmanda Intellectuals' Forum, New Delhi > > > ***The Pasmanda Intellectual’s Forum (PIF) is a small informal group > of activists, journalists and intellectuals who deliberate on the > issues concerning pasmanda and other subaltern sections like bahujans, > gender, working classes, tribals and so on. They aspire for a plural > and democratic India and strive to intervene in issues that take > forward this agenda. Their overriding concern is to provide visibility > to marginalized issues by articulating it and bringing it to the > public sphere so that an informed debate can take place on the same. > It does not have a formal hierarchical structure and is facilitated by > a Coordinating Committee. Though it operates out of Delhi it has no > spatial limitations and is open to all democratic citizens from any > caste, creed, gender, class or religious location. > > At present the Coordinating Committee comprises Mr. Ashok Yadav > (Patna), Mr. Noor Hasan Azad (Patna), Mohd. Hishamuddin (Patna), Mr. > Raza Abbas (Aligarh), Dr. Mohd. Sajjad (Aligarh), Mr. Khalid Anis > Ansari (New Delhi), Mr.Qasim Ansari (New Delhi), Mr. Naresh Kumar > (Lucknow).*** > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with subscribe > in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> _________________________________________ reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. Critiques & Collaborations To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with subscribe in the subject header. To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> From c.anupam at gmail.com Sun Jun 14 17:59:21 2009 From: c.anupam at gmail.com (anupam chakravartty) Date: Sun, 14 Jun 2009 17:59:21 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Army retreat from J&K will be suicidal In-Reply-To: <6353c690906140351j5f4f8fa2l7e5c58f6a141abd0@mail.gmail.com> References: <6353c690906140351j5f4f8fa2l7e5c58f6a141abd0@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <341380d00906140529y275d0e0aobef36ae2a3636b86@mail.gmail.com> Dear all, Presence of the armed forces in “troubled areas” is probably not the solution for bringing peace to any region. Under the garb of security, state governments receive funds. It is quite a well-known fact the state profits from having an armed presence in the state, so that whenever the administration wants it can flex its muscles and attack whomever it wants. We have had several examples of such violations in which state governments of these so-called troubled areas have taken the advantage of the “troubled status” used it as means to quell actual dissent. Just imagine, having a policemen right in front of your house all the time. It may give you a sense of security from the possible incursions, but it also serves as signifier for an occasional visitor that such and such area is troubled, therefore it must be avoided. Trade stops flourishing under the shadow of the gun even if the gun is meant to protect its own people. For example: the case of Stillwell Road in Assam and Arunachal border. For a long time, authorities, central and state wanted to revive the trade route that flourished during the British and Ahom period in Assam. Presence of a large number security agencies on that road has been one of the reasons ascertained by several reports that locals do not want to participate. They are so-called of the men with guns, be it militants or policemen or army that they cannot differentiate between them. Presence of a large number of paramilitary and military forces costs a lot to the respective state governments. Funds that could have been either spent on development are marked for the security forces. In some cases, for example in Karbi Anglong Autonomous Council in Assam, politicians, militants cause violence so that more security forces come to the district. This way, more funds are marked towards the council for security purpose, which could be easily rigged, the budget could be inflated to suit the demands of the politicians and their nexus with the militants. On the same lines, lives of the men falling prey to the guerrilla warfare can be saved because our armed personnel cannot combat those who are a bunch of cowards. Political solutions to such conflicts are more long term than the security solution. Essentially, the security enhancement is not meant to protect the interests of the people but the interest of the state administration especially when it comes to trouble torn areas because in such areas, after say 10 or 15 years of conflict, every body is out there to save themselves from the conflict. It is in this point of time, a political solution could be suggested. By bringing in democratic values among the people, by encouraging debates at a grassroot level these conflicts can be solved. Terming the removal of AFSPA as suicidal serves the interest of those who are not seeking a solution but who want temporary succour. This is a perfect recipe of disaster. Reported acceptance by the home minister is a welcome move. For the beleaguered Kashmiri Pandits, for trouble torn North Eastern states and its tribes, for the migrants from Bangladeshis, for the protesting women from Manipur, for displaced Chakmas in Arunachal Pradesh, for the landless in Chattisgarh, for the families of the security personnel who lost their lives, and mostly for this “troubled” regions, it is the time to do away with that “conflict-prone” tag that has been foisted upon by the successive (and oppressive) governments and militant outfits. -Thanks Anupam On 6/14/09, Aditya Raj Kaul wrote: > > *Army retreat from J&K will be suicidal > > Ramesh Khazanchi > **Sunday June 14, 2009 > The Times of India* > > *Link* - > http://blogs.timesofindia.indiatimes.com/Hard-copy/entry/it-s-a-war-keep > > Kashmir, I admit, is my fixation, for I am a victim of its two-decade-long > dalliance with death and destruction. The latest spark adding insult to > injury is the reported acceptance by the Union home minister, P > Chidambaram, > of a proposal from the J&K state leadership seeking the suspension or > revocation of the Armed Forces Special Powers Act, 1958 (AFSPA). However, > even talk of its revocation could spell doom for the return of normalcy to > the violence-ridden valley. Pakistan's ruinous internecine battle within > may > have its ramifications across the LoC, not by chance but by design. > > It was Chidambaram's first visit to the valley after he became home > minister. Let him lead by example. If he looks soft by the exterior, let it > not be mistaken as a sign of weakness. Flexing the iron hand in the velvet > glove, I believe, is the need of the hour. If financial wizardry is his > forte, strategic planning ought to be his bible in his new role. It is far > too pre-mature at this stage to even think of putting on hold the AFSPA let > alone its revocation. In any case, the unified Command - which comprises > the > Army brass, the governor, the chief minister and the Cabinet Committee on > Security - has to deliberate the issue before a decision in this regard is > made. > > Legend has it that Kashmir is the land of Kashyap rishi (seer), the > eponymous saint who lent the 'vahr' (bowl-shaped) valley its name and > identity, exterminated the 'asuras' (demons) who would devour the > God-fearing aborigines. Mark, the first syllable is common to both - > Kash-yap and Kash-mir. Born and brought up in the paradise-turned-cauldron, > like tens of thousands of other Kashmiri Hindus - to be precise Kashmiri > Pandits - I have been driven out of my motherland for no fault of mine by > none other than the jihadis, brainwashed at a tender age by the > scourge-on-earth - the Inter-Services Intelligence (ISI), Pakistan's > supra-constitutional 'international-sabotage institution'. > > Americans have realised it post 9/11 - much, much after we Indians fell > victim to Pakistan's machinations and the gory violence it unleashed in a > bid to wrest control of the land which never was theirs. For 20 years we > suffered at their hands in Punjab, and for the last two decades in Jammu & > Kashmir in what is euphemistically termed a low-intensity conflict (LIC). > What they failed to attain by outright aggression in 1947, '65 and '71, has > been attempted by sowing the seeds of internal strife and secession. > > Only the Cowboy has gone the whole hog after them as he has the wherewithal > and the will to exterminate the scourge. > > The grand old American democracy has introduced a plethora of > all-encompassing legislation, including the Homeland Security Act and US > Patriot Act, which permit the DNA profiling of people suspected of > terrorist > activity against the US or its interests and subjects abroad. That's what > nations are legitimately supposed to do to protect their territorial > integrity and national sovereignty aimed at securing the life, liberty, > business and property of its citizens and allies. > > Alas, the weak-kneed Indian government has, unlike Americans, failed to > stem > the tide of home-grown militancy and Pakistan-sponsored insurgency in the > state. India, under whichever political dispensation at the Centre, has > abysmally failed to turn the adversity into opportunity on many an > occasion. > The high point being Pakistan's Kargil misadventure, although a godsend for > us, we missed the bus again for we failed the nation by not declaring a > full-fledged war on all fronts, including the western front and the Karachi > harbour. What do we maintain for the Naval behemoth in the Arabian sea? Are > we content in letting it be an augmentation of the Coast Guard? There we > failed, too, in the wake of the enemy's cloak-and-dagger operation when > so-called non-state actors surreptitiously sailed across the high seas to > carry out the 26/11 terrorist mission in Mumbai under explicit directions > and logistic support by their agent-provocateur across the Radcliffe Line. > > On November 27, 1997, then Chief Justice of India J S Verma and four other > judges of the Supreme Court on a review petition of the AFSPA (in the > context of the north-east) observed, "The power to make a law providing for > deployment of the armed forces of the Union in aid of the civil power of a > State does not include within its ambit the power to enact a law which > would > enable the armed forces of the Union to supplant or act as a substitute for > the civil power in the State. The armed forces of the Union would operate > in > the State concerned in cooperation with the civil administration so that > the > situation which has necessitated the deployment of armed forces is > effectively dealt with and normalcy is restored." > > It is explicit in the judgment that the Army will act "in aid of the civil > administration of the state"... until "normalcy is restored." Keeping in > view the recent successful bids by the battle-hardened militants to > infiltrate into the valley under heavy arms fire-cover provided by the > Pakistan army coupled with the melting snow at the high mountain passes, > the > situation does not warrant any lowering of guard by the armed forces which > alone are trained and equipped to fight the Talibanized insurgents. > However, > Rashtriya Rifles, which has borne the brunt of militant attacks and in turn > broken the backbone of the insurgency in J&K, does act hand in hand with > the > state police and the paramilitary forces. In any case, it is the local > police and the paramilitary forces which maintain security in Srinagar and > its outskirts. The Army, to all intents and purposes, has since been > ordered > to the barracks. But any inference that the situation is fast returning to > normal and warrants the revocation of the AFSPA would indeed be a > retrograde > step fraught with dire consequences. > > The grand old American democracy has introduced a plethora of > all-encompassing legislation, including the Homeland Security Act and US > Patriot Act, which permit the DNA profiling of people suspected of > terrorist > activity against the US or its interests and subjects abroad. That's what > nations are legitimately supposed to do to protect their territorial > integrity and national sovereignty aimed at securing the life, liberty, > business and property of its citizens and allies. > > Kashmir, I admit, is my fixation, for I am a victim of its two-decade-long > dalliance with death and destruction. The latest spark adding insult to > injury is the reported acceptance by the Union home minister, P > Chidambaram, > of a proposal from the J&K state leadership seeking the suspension or > revocation of the Armed Forces Special Powers Act, 1958 (AFSPA). However, > even talk of its revocation could spell doom for the return of normalcy to > the violence-ridden valley. Pakistan's ruinous internecine battle within > may > have its ramifications across the LoC, not by chance but by design. > > It was Chidambaram's first visit to the valley after he became home > minister. Let him lead by example. If he looks soft by the exterior, let it > not be mistaken as a sign of weakness. Flexing the iron hand in the velvet > glove, I believe, is the need of the hour. If financial wizardry is his > forte, strategic planning ought to be his bible in his new role. It is far > too pre-mature at this stage to even think of putting on hold the AFSPA let > alone its revocation. In any case, the unified Command - which comprises > the > Army brass, the governor, the chief minister and the Cabinet Committee on > Security - has to deliberate the issue before a decision in this regard is > made. > > Legend has it that Kashmir is the land of Kashyap rishi (seer), the > eponymous saint who lent the 'vahr' (bowl-shaped) valley its name and > identity, exterminated the 'asuras' (demons) who would devour the > God-fearing aborigines. Mark, the first syllable is common to both - > Kash-yap and Kash-mir. Born and brought up in the paradise-turned-cauldron, > like tens of thousands of other Kashmiri Hindus - to be precise Kashmiri > Pandits - I have been driven out of my motherland for no fault of mine by > none other than the jihadis, brainwashed at a tender age by the > scourge-on-earth - the Inter-Services Intelligence (ISI), Pakistan's > supra-constitutional 'international-sabotage institution'. > > Americans have realised it post 9/11 - much, much after we Indians fell > victim to Pakistan's machinations and the gory violence it unleashed in a > bid to wrest control of the land which never was theirs. For 20 years we > suffered at their hands in Punjab, and for the last two decades in Jammu & > Kashmir in what is euphemistically termed a low-intensity conflict (LIC). > What they failed to attain by outright aggression in 1947, '65 and '71, has > been attempted by sowing the seeds of internal strife and secession. > > Only the Cowboy has gone the whole hog after them as he has the wherewithal > and the will to exterminate the scourge. > > > Alas, the weak-kneed Indian government has, unlike Americans, failed to > stem > the tide of home-grown militancy and Pakistan-sponsored insurgency in the > state. India, under whichever political dispensation at the Centre, has > abysmally failed to turn the adversity into opportunity on many an > occasion. > The high point being Pakistan's Kargil misadventure, although a godsend for > us, we missed the bus again for we failed the nation by not declaring a > full-fledged war on all fronts, including the western front and the Karachi > harbour. What do we maintain for the Naval behemoth in the Arabian sea? Are > we content in letting it be an augmentation of the Coast Guard? There we > failed, too, in the wake of the enemy's cloak-and-dagger operation when > so-called non-state actors surreptitiously sailed across the high seas to > carry out the 26/11 terrorist mission in Mumbai under explicit directions > and logistic support by their agent-provocateur across the Radcliffe Line. > > On November 27, 1997, then Chief Justice of India J S Verma and four other > judges of the Supreme Court on a review petition of the AFSPA (in the > context of the north-east) observed, "The power to make a law providing for > deployment of the armed forces of the Union in aid of the civil power of a > State does not include within its ambit the power to enact a law which > would > enable the armed forces of the Union to supplant or act as a substitute for > the civil power in the State. The armed forces of the Union would operate > in > the State concerned in cooperation with the civil administration so that > the > situation which has necessitated the deployment of armed forces is > effectively dealt with and normalcy is restored." > > It is explicit in the judgment that the Army will act "in aid of the civil > administration of the state"... until "normalcy is restored." Keeping in > view the recent successful bids by the battle-hardened militants to > infiltrate into the valley under heavy arms fire-cover provided by the > Pakistan army coupled with the melting snow at the high mountain passes, > the > situation does not warrant any lowering of guard by the armed forces which > alone are trained and equipped to fight the Talibanized insurgents. > However, > Rashtriya Rifles, which has borne the brunt of militant attacks and in turn > broken the backbone of the insurgency in J&K, does act hand in hand with > the > state police and the paramilitary forces. In any case, it is the local > police and the paramilitary forces which maintain security in Srinagar and > its outskirts. The Army, to all intents and purposes, has since been > ordered > to the barracks. But any inference that the situation is fast returning to > normal and warrants the revocation of the AFSPA would indeed be a > retrograde > step fraught with dire consequences. > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > subscribe in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> From kmvenuannur at gmail.com Sun Jun 14 19:53:21 2009 From: kmvenuannur at gmail.com (Venugopalan K M) Date: Sun, 14 Jun 2009 19:53:21 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] =?windows-1252?q?Press_Release_For_Immediate_Releas?= =?windows-1252?q?e_June_7=2C_2009_National_Alliance_of_Anti-nuclea?= =?windows-1252?q?r_Movements_=28NAAM=29_Launched_with_=93The_Kanya?= =?windows-1252?q?kumari_Declaration=94?= Message-ID: <1f9180970906140723k7843e07ah2ae972423b146b1b@mail.gmail.com> Press Release For Immediate Release June 7, 2009 National Alliance of Anti-nuclear Movements (NAAM) Launched with “The Kanyakumari Declaration” More than one hundred organizations, peoples’ movements and concerned citizens from across the country came together for a National Convention on “The Politics of Nuclear Energy and Resistance” on June 4-6, 2009 at Kanyakumari. They discussed all the different aspects of nuclear power generation and weapons production, the various stages of nuclearization from Uranium mining till waste management, and the commissions and the omissions of the government of India and the Department of Atomic Energy during the three-day-long convention. Besides the scientific, technological, and socioeconomic dimensions, the Convention also considered the political side of the nuclear threat. The nucolonization (nuclear+colonization) policy of the Delhi government is poised to continue with a Russian outpost in Koodankulam, a French settlement in Jaitapur, an American joint in Haripur and many more such establishments around the country. India is going to look and feel like the colony of several East India Companies. The Citizens of India would become the energy slaves of these White and Brown power barons. Most importantly, nuclearism is a political ideology that cannot stomach any transparency, accountability or popular participation. It snubs dissent, denounces opponents and creates a political climate of fear and retribution. With the India-US nuclear deal, and the deals with Russia and France and likely private participation in nuclear energy generation, the situation is going to get out of hand in our country. The combination of profiteering companies, secretive state apparatuses and repressive nuclear department will be ruthless and this nexus of capitalism, statism and nuclearism does not augur well for the country. These forces gaining an upper hand in our national polity will mean a death knell for the country’s democracy, openness, and prospects for sustainable development. In order to mobilize the Indian citizens against this growing nucolonization, to resist the nuclearization of the country, and to protect our people from nuclear threats and the environment from nuclear waste and radiation, an umbrella organization (tentatively named as the National Alliance of Anti-nuclear Movements) has been founded with eight committees on Documentation, Economic Analysis, Legal, Mass Media, International Liaison, Translation, Health, and Direct Action. A statement known as “The Kanyakumari Declaration” was also passed by the National Convention. Contact for More Info: Dr. S. P. Udayakumar, spudayakumar at gmail.com, 09865683735 THE KANYAKUMARI DECLARATION Statement of The National Convention on “The Politics of Nuclear Energy and Resistance,” June 4-6, 2009, Kanyakumari, Tamil Nadu, India We, the undersigned organizations, peoples’ movements and concerned citizens committed to building a world free from nuclear exploitation, nuclear business, nuclear power and nuclear weapons, do hereby declare the following: 1. In the context of the unprecedented threats facing the world due to global warming and the rapid depletion of conventional energy sources, the nuclear establishment is most opportunistically pushing nuclear energy as a climate-friendly energy source. However, all the activities associated with nuclear power generation - the mining and processing of uranium, the building of nuclear power stations involving huge amounts of cement and steel, the long construction process, the decommissioning of plants and the handling of radioactive waste - are highly unsafe and expensive, and cause enormous climate-changing pollution. Nuclear energy is not cheap, safe, clean or sustainable. It also does not offer a solution to our energy problems. 2. The government of India is aggressively expanding nuclear power generation and enhancing nuclear business with countries such as the United States, Russia, France, Kazakhstan and others without any regard for norms of democratic decision making. We express outrage over the fact that the newly-elected UPA government is conveniently choosing to interpret the verdict of the recent elections as a mandate for nuclearization. 3. A highly populated country like India does have an increasing need for energy. But for that very reason the energy options we choose must be economical, sustainable, safe and environmentally-friendly. Moreover energy distribution must be made more equitable, just and efficient. 4. In India, huge resources have already been wasted on nuclear power projects that are expensive, inefficient, hazardous and also potentially catastrophic. The Indian nuclear establishment has expressed interest in amending the Indian Atomic Energy Act, 1962 to facilitate privatization. While private companies will make money, Indian taxpayers and ordinary citizens will bear the cost of dealing with all the liabilities such as nuclear waste, decommissioning, possible accidents, public health issues and other dangerous consequences. 5. The workings of the nuclear establishment in the country are shrouded in mystery and protected by draconian laws of official secrecy in complete contradiction to our constitutional right to information. Legislation as secretive and repressive as the Indian Atomic Energy Act, 1962 should have no place in a democracy. 6. Nuclear energy establishments such as the Indian Rare Earths (IRE) in Kerala and Tamil Nadu, Kalpakkam, Rawatbhatta and Jadugoda have already created major health problems for local citizens. 7. India’s nuclear program has been and continues to be vigorously resisted by the people of this country whose struggles in the past have stopped two nuclear power stations – Peringome and Kothamangalam – from coming up. This convention declares total support and solidarity to the struggles of people resisting the Koodankulam Nuclear Power Plant in Tirunelveli district, Tamil Nadu. It also declares support and solidarity to people in all other parts of the country such as Jadugoda, Meghalaya, Haripur and Jaitapur who are struggling against uranium mining and nuclear power plants. .In view of the above, we, the gathered participants of the National Convention on “The Politics of Nuclear Energy and Resistance” demand that: 1. Immediate compensation and health facilities be provided to people suffering from radiation illnesses such as cancer, genetic disorders, skin diseases, reproductive health problems and other major health effects caused by nuclear establishments, nuclear mining and fuel sites and other allied nuclear industries and activities. 2. All persons living in the vicinity of nuclear establishments and nuclear fuel sites be declared potentially radiation-affected and that clear-cut mechanisms be evolved for appropriate compensation. 3. All activities related to the Koodankulam Nuclear Power Plant be immediately stopped. 4. The proposed nuclear power plants at Haripur (West Bengal), Mithi Virdi (Gujarat), Madban (Maharashtra), Pitti Sonapur (Orissa) and Kovada (Andhra Pradesh) be immediately scrapped. 5. The draconian Indian Atomic Energy Act, 1962 be revoked forthwith. 6. The Right to Information (RTI) Act be amended to apply to all aspects of the nuclear establishment. -- http://venukm.blogspot.com/ From shahzulf at yahoo.com Sun Jun 14 20:09:39 2009 From: shahzulf at yahoo.com (Zulfiqar Shah) Date: Sun, 14 Jun 2009 07:39:39 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Reader-list] Sindhi Nationalism through the Kaleidoscope of History Message-ID: <514165.80463.qm@web38802.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Sindhi Nationalism through the Kaleidoscope of History   The News, Karachi   Zulfiqar Shahtraces the history and transformation of nationalist movements in the province and their various forms over the past 170 years   The history of Sindhi nationalism is basically a history of resistance movements and wars fought against foreign invasions across the centuries. Modern Sindhi nationalism, however, begins with the resistance against the British in the mid-nineteenth century. The entire movement can be divided into two parts: pre- and post-Partition.   1842 – 1900: The Talpurs' war and the Hur Guerrilla Movement  The pre-Partition wave begins with the Talpurs' war in 1842. This period, due to its characteristics, can be referred to as the 'early resistance' period (1842-1900), in which Sindh was conquered by Charles Napier at Miani near Hyderabad in March 1943 and annexed with the Bombay presidency. Insurgencies, however, immediately dominated the scene, beginning with uprising of Ranas under Karan Singh on April 15, 1859, in Tharparkar, a south-eastern desert district. Hundreds of fighters lost their lives in this insurgency, which was followed by mutiny in the army in Mirpurkhas and Karachi.   A severe blow to the British rule in Sindh, however, was given by first Hur Guerrilla Movement in 1890 under the leadership of Syed Mardan Shah, the grandfather of Pakistan Muslim League-Functional (PML-F) chief Pir Pagaro. Hundreds of fighters took part in this war, which continued for no less than a decade. Three main participants of this phase of the movement, however, caught the public eye. They were Bachu Badshah, Peeru Vazir and Gulu Government.   1900 – 1940: Socio-economic transformations and the rise of feudalism The British, after conquering Sindh, patronised feudalism by offering an enormous number of fertile agriculture lands to individuals who pledged loyalty to the new Colonial rulers. A new phase of socio-economic development began, which can be identified as a transitional period (1900-1940).   Three quarters of the population comprised Muslims, while the remaining were Hindu. The majority of Hindus, traditionally, were shopkeepers, traders and professionals living in the urban hubs, while the Muslims remained landowners, tillers and herdsmen living in small villages, hamlets and remote huts. At the time of the British conquest only one million acres of land were irrigated. The population of Sindh was about 1.4 million, with about 25 per cent Hindus. The British transformed Sindh from medieval to modern through changes in the infrastructure, communication, education and the system of governance. Sindh was separated from Bombay and the Sindh Legislative Assembly was established in Karachi later in the 1930s. During this, Sindh supported the formation process of the Indian National Army under Subhash Chandra Bose and some young Sindhis also carried out some militant activities, which included blasts at several railway tracks. They were also involved in well-known bomb blasts in Delhi at the time.   1941 – 1943: The Hurs re-emerge  The second Hur Guerrilla Warfare period began in early 1941, under Sibghatullah Shah, the father of PML-F chief, Pir Pagaro. An area of about 25,000 square kilometres was converted into a battleground between the guerrillas and the British forces. To counter this, some 35,000 troops from the Baloch and Punjab regiments were installed in Sindh. Heavy artillery was also used, and eventually the first Martial Law in the history of the subcontinent was imposed in Sindh.   Post-Partition: Exodus of the middle class and the emergence of 'cultural nationalism' Sindh fought for its liberation for a hundred years, from 1843 to 1943. The partition of United India and the creation of Pakistan, however, was partially the result of the G.M Syed-led polity in Sindh from 1943 to 1947. Syed later disowned this.   The creation of Pakistan, in its very beginning proved to be initiation of a new devastation in the social and national tranquillity of Sindh. An exodus of Sindhi Hindus from the province created a vacuum in society because they formed the sole petty-bourgeois and bourgeois classes of Sindh. The space left by them was occupied by immigrants from India who had a different culture and language and could not merge with Sindhi society as perfectly as was aspired by the leadership of the Muslim League Sindh. Besides, Karachi was separated from Sindh and was given to the federal government as the capital of the country.   In 1954, the One Unit scheme was introduced to counter the numerical majority of East Pakistan. This laid the foundation of the destruction of Sindhi culture and gave Punjab the authority over the natural resources of the province. Between 1947 and 1970, Sindhi nationalism, sans the middle class, adopted the form of cultural nationalism.   1970 - 1990s: Z.A Bhutto, MRD, and nationalist resistance to military rule It was Z.A Bhutto, the founder and first chairman of the Pakistan People's Party (PPP), who began transformation of Sindhi society by developing its middle class, this laying the foundations for social transition in Sindh. This undoubtedly influenced the Sindhi nationalist movement in form as well as content. After Bhutto's execution, Sindh entered a decade-long resistance against the military; causing hundreds of civil and military causalities. In its essence, the Movement for the Restoration of Democracy (MRD) in Sindh was a nationalist resistance rather than a movement for democracy.   Soon after General Ziaul Haq's death, the PPP came into power again, opening the corridors of opportunities for the people of Sindh, including the recently-born middle class, political cadres, and others. Thus, nationalist tendencies in Sindhi society become relatively milder than earlier. Contrary to this, the picture changed entirely during the regime of General (retd) Pervez Musharraf.   December 27, 2007: The tide turns After the murder of PPP Chairperson (and daughter of PPP founder Z.A Bhutto) Benazir Bhutto, nationalist tendencies in Sindh achieved mass outlook. A manifestation of this was witnessed during the first three days of her murder (she was assassinated in Rawalpindi on December 27, 2007).   As soon as the current PPP government completes its tenure, the new boom in Sindhi nationalism will become more visible. In the future course, it may take the Urdu-speaking community as a major ally. In fact, a new definition of contemporary Sindhi nationalism by cobbling together two linguistic parts -- Sindhi and Urdu -- can provide the foundation of a new form of Sindhi nationalism.   The writer is the Provincial Coordinator of South Asia Partnership Pakistan and can be reached at shahzulf at yahoo.com   Link: http://jang.com.pk/thenews/jun2009-weekly/nos-14-06-2009/kol.htm New Email names for you! Get the Email name you've always wanted on the new @ymail and @rocketmail. Hurry before someone else does! http://mail.promotions.yahoo.com/newdomains/aa/ From kmvenuannur at gmail.com Sun Jun 14 20:25:23 2009 From: kmvenuannur at gmail.com (Venugopalan K M) Date: Sun, 14 Jun 2009 20:25:23 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Fwd: [humanrights-movement:1632] Election Verdict 2009 -Whither BJP ISP June 2009 III In-Reply-To: <21fc17440906122052s27c96606rd409de3e2332cce8@mail.gmail.com> References: <21fc17440906122052s27c96606rd409de3e2332cce8@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <1f9180970906140755p361086aav464b4627b16dad9f@mail.gmail.com> ---------- Forwarded message ---------- From: ram puniyani Date: Sat, Jun 13, 2009 at 9:22 AM Subject: [humanrights-movement:1632] Election Verdict 2009 -Whither BJP ISP June 2009 III To: ram puniyani Election Verdict 2009- Whither BJP? Ram Puniyani The resounding defeat of BJP in the 2009 elections, decline in number of seats and decline in voting percentage prompted various BJP insiders and sympathizers to do some introspection. Where did the party go wrong? In his piece in Times of India 4th June 2009, Swapan Dasgupta feels that BJP has got too much identified with Hindutva, which is no more appealing to large section of Hindus so it needs to come out of this image for a makeover. Sudheendra Kulkarni (Tehelka 13th June 2009), looks at the defeat as close Advani aide and also as an insider and points out that Advani was not sufficiently backed up by RSS and BJP. He also says that BJP’s implementation of Hindutva looked to be anti minorities and that its links with RSS need to be given a second look. Kulkarni projects as if Hindutva is all inclusive, Hindu identity is core of Indian Nationalism, and Cultural nationalism is not meant for Hindus alone. One can infer that Kulkarni basically stands by the core RSS concepts of Hindutva, Cultural Nationalism and Integral humanism and finds BJP practices faulty in this direction. One can point out that since Kulkarni is an insider, associated with BJP from the times of Advani’s Rath nay, blood yatra, and is close to the top echelons of BJP and that he had all the time to point out to BJP leadership as to how their practice is deviating from the genuine Hindutva. One is not sure whether this has been done inside the party forums, any way lets keep that aside. Concepts and ideologies are not made in the thin air. They reflect the needs of social groups. These terms couched in the language of religion were devised by ideologues of declining sections of Hindu society, the landlords and Brahmins from early nineteen twenties onwards. The term Hindutva in particular came into being as the politics of Hindu Mahasabha and RSS. It stood for politics of Hindus, for the building of Hindu Rashtra. This word was coined by Savarkar in 1920s and was meant to be an alternate notion of politics to the one being articulated by national movement led by Gandhi. Similar concept of nationalism, based on the values of liberty, equality and fraternity were also articulated by Ambedkar, while the third major stream during freedom movement, Bhagat Singh and Communists, dreamt of a Socialist society, based on the notions of substantive equality and state regulating the social relations to ensure this equality. It must be pointed out that the concept of Hindutva aims at Hindu nation, in parallel to the concept of Muslim nation being propounded by Muslim League, and in opposition to the concept of democratic secular nation, the concept for which national movement was working. This Indian nationalism is all inclusive, inclusive of all religions, castes and both genders. The concepts of Hindu and Muslim nations are exclusive concepts. The second point is that the Gandhi-Ambedkar Nationalism was based on the equality of caste and gender while HIndutva and the ideology of Muslim nationalism were continuum of the feudal values, the harping on caste and gender hierarchy. In the same direction later Deen Dayal Upadhyay the ideologue of RSS-BJP very cleverly put up the concept of Integral Humanism. This concept argues that as any organism is well balanced due to the division of work between different parts of the body, similarly different social groups perform different well defined tasks to provide the equilibrium for the proper social functioning. This in a way talks of status quo in the caste and gender relation prevalent in society. Similarly Cultural nationalism as propounded by RSS and adopted by BJP stands for the elite Brahminical culture as the synonym for Indian ness. All in all this is precisely what RSS defines and BJP practiced so far. There cannot be equal place of dalits, women and non Hindus in this scheme of things. Swapan Dasgupta feels BJP has to drop Hindutva, to provide an alternative based on good governance, non dynasty politics etc. Kulkarni’s reading of Hindutva and integral humanism is from the world of make-believe, totally off the mark. The simple question is why were these practitioners of Hindutva, cultural nationalism aloof from National movement? It is this National movement which laid the basis of India and achieved India’s independence. These streams which take the cover of glorious traditions focus only on those traditions are elitist. In Indian context the concepts Hindu nationalism and Muslim Nationalism derive their legitimacy from Brahminical and Ashrafs (Muslim elite) stream respectively. Why can’t RSS-BJP talk that primarily they are loyal to the values of Liberty, Equality and Fraternity and dump all those concepts built around religious identity? It is because these religion based concepts are the best cover for oppression of women, dalits and non Hindus. And in turn these concepts also demonize, intimidate and commit violence against minorities, trying to reduce them to second class citizens. BJP could come to power only because of harping on identity of Lord Ram. BJP does hold Ram is the symbol of India’s identity. This is one of the expressions of their cultural nationalism. The question arises why only Lord Ram is the symbol of India, why not Shambuk, or Bali or Sita. In nutshell their cultural nationalism picks up those characters which suit the interests, agenda of Hindu elite. Surely had Ram temple agitation not taken up, Babri mosque not demolished and Mumbai and Gujarat violence not instigated, BJP would have been on the margin of Indian society. Its very raison detre is due to the fact that it is progeny of RSS, to the fact that it is related to VHP, Bajrang Dal etc., whose vagaries it keeps defending most of the time. It is thoroughly exclusionist and that’s why it justifies Gujarat violence, Kandhamal, rejects Sachar committee etc. It is not a mere coincidence; it is the core of BJP politics. It is not that the concept of Hindutva is inclusionary and practice is faulty, the very concept of Hindutva is exclusionary, in theory and practices both. Can BJP throw away Hindutva, aim of building Hindu Nation around glorious Hindu traditions of Manu Smriti etc? The question is misplaced as BJP is nobody to decide that. BJP is merely a political arm of RSS; it is RSS which has to decide that. Can RSS cut its own legitimacy off by renouncing Hindutva? The question does not arise. RSS essentially is aimed around these goals. Kulkarni’s confusions and his welcome concern about poor, minorities and dalits are misplaced as those are not the concerns of RSS, they have never been and can never be the concerns of BJP and company at any point of time. Hindutva or integral humanism is cleverly worded disguise to undermine the concept of democracy. Last two decades had been a nightmare where the values opposed to Indian nationhood asserted themselves aggressively, bringing immense miseries. One hopes with the trend of decline of BJP, those striving for democratic struggles, struggles for equality and rights of dalits, women, adivasis, workers and minorities will come to occupy the main social space and protect the nation form the damages done by the politics in the garb of religious identity. -- Issues in Secular Politics June 2009 III For Circulation/Publication www.pluralindia.com ram.puniyani at gmail.com --~--~---------~--~----~------------~-------~--~----~ You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "humanrights movement" group. To post to this group, send email to humanrights-movement at googlegroups.com To unsubscribe from this group, send email to humanrights-movement+unsubscribe at googlegroups.com For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/humanrights-movement?hl=en -~----------~----~----~----~------~----~------~--~--- -- http://venukm.blogspot.com/ From kmvenuannur at gmail.com Sun Jun 14 20:32:20 2009 From: kmvenuannur at gmail.com (Venugopalan K M) Date: Sun, 14 Jun 2009 20:32:20 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Caste And Democracy In India By Vidya Bhushan Rawat (fwd) Message-ID: <1f9180970906140802y31ce83feka893a63edea61a66@mail.gmail.com> Caste And Democracy In India By Vidya Bhushan Rawat 13 June, 2009 Countercurrents.org At the outset of my presentation, I would like to congratulate International Humanist and Ethical Union and fellow humanists for taking initiative to address the issue of untouchability from a non religious view point. I always believed that the emancipation and liberation of humanity is not in the so-called liberation theologies but liberation of minds of human being. When we talk about India and see its diversity, we will find that most of the revolt movements in India spoke against the hegemony of a particular caste and the systematization of rituals and imposition of farcical values in the name of divinity. India became a nation under the British regime. 400 years of Mughal rule and then British Raj, brought a lot of changes in India, whether administrative reforms or institutionalization of democratic process yet one thing that remained unchanged was the caste discrimination. Prior to British, the stream of Sufi saints rejected the brahmanical system and injustice meted to Dalits but their focus was more making people aware of themselves and tried to take shelter in a seemingly egalitarian religion by terming God does not discriminate, he is one and omnipresent and omnipotent. But the real changes came when in the 19th century, when the approach of the leaders of deprived castes became not only of a of a revolt against the values and thoughts imposed by the High Caste Hindus led by the Brahmins but an assertion in the belief of modernity which resulted in the democratization process in Europe, United States as well as Eastern European Countries, which many of you might not like at the moment. Democracy is essentially a practice of alliance building. And the first such grand alliance of farmers, marginalized communities and the deprived communities was forged by Jyoti Ba Phule, as he termed these communities as ‘Bahujan’ and felt that those ruling India were really minorities leaders of the high caste Hindus. But Dr Ambedkar who got educated in United States, UK and Germany did not really feel the same way. His concerns were really about the constitutional provisions for the Dalits. He realized that Democracy was a broadly a majoritarian concept and cannot really be confined to electoral exercise and therefore a mere political alliance of communities which lead to political power can not be the only objective of a democratic exercise. Instead, he felt that our institutions should be strong enough to protect the constitutional provisions made for the most marginalized communities. He knew that the communities that he was leading did not understand much about discrimination and rights as it was thoroughly disempowered one. He knew that communities which remain in enslavement and hunger because of various rituals and ideologies and philosophies injected in their minds that they would not be able to understand what their rights are? Many of them still feel that what they have been doing was perfectly divine and no body has a right to stop that. The theory of karma, that what you are today because of your bad karmas in the previous birth hence to undo that one must stick to his/her duties. Ambedkar said that Karma theory did the maxmimum damage to the rights of the depressed classes most commonly known as Untouchables or Dalits. We must not forget that Ambedkar approached the Dalits problem through a minority view point. He wanted to ensure constitutional rights so that the Dalits do not become victim of majoritarian assertion during the elections. That is why he fought for the separate electorate for them in 1932 and which was justifiably awarded by the British that time known as communal award. In all his life time, Ambedkar addressed the issue of the untouchables from the view point of a democratic polity and not just politics. After India got independence and Ambedkar led the drafting of the Indian constitution, Dalits got 17.5% seats reserved in parliament and state assemblies. Actually Ambedkar never asked for this reservation as he feared that the leadership that would emerge after this would be serving more to the high caste Hindus who form the majority than the Dalits. And this resulted in defeat of Ambedkar in the very first election he contested from Mumbai, Maharastra as all the high caste Hindus ganged up against him and got him defeated. Ambedkar could not live more but the Dalis became vote bank of the ruling party. Many leaders were elected and became ministers and governors and chief ministers of the state but the over all condition of the Dalits was a matter of great concern. However, there were a few symbolic exceptions which were utilized to mobilize the Dalit opinion for a particular political formation. Let us first come to what Ambedkar said about Indian democracy in an interview to Voice of America on May 20th, 1956. He asks this question whether there is a democracy in India and he says: ‘Democracy is quite different from a Republic as well as from parliamentary Government. The roots of democracy lie not in the form of Government, Parliamentary or otherwise. A democracy is more than a form of government. It is primarily a mode of associated living. The roots of democracy are to be searched in the social relationship, in the terms of associated life between people who form a society.’ And to further his cause he points out: “The Indian society does not consist of individuals. It consists of innumerable collection of castes, which are exclusive in their life and have no common experience to share and have no bond of sympathy. The existence of caste system is a standing denial of the existence of those ideals of society and therefore of democracy. An Indian cannot eat or marry with an Indian simply because he or she does not belong to his or her caste. An Indian simply can not touch an Indian because he or she does belong to his or her caste.” Ambedkar questions the political system and how Congress party field its candidate and how they are selected carefully on the basis of their caste. Ambedkar says : “How does an Indian vote in an election? He votes for a candidate who belongs to his own caste and no other Further he considers caste system as a bane to democracy. ‘ Castes are not equal in their status. They are standing one above another. They are jealous of one another. It is an ascending scale of hatred and descending scale of contempt. The feature of caste system has most pernicious consequences. It destroys willing and helpful cooperation.” Unfortunately, after Ambedkar death his legacy was claimed by certain leaders for their own purposes. Ambedkar ideals were kept in books and what was projected his themes and views which were suitable to various political leaders. What they failed to understand that Ambedkar grew up over a period of time and many of his views changed. If he had bitter experience on the issue of questioning the religious text with Gandhi and on the issue of empowerment of the Dalits, he joined the constitution making process to empower the community leaving his bitterness aside. Post 1940s he was more into positive action and send many Dalit scholars abroad at his own expenses. Never in his life did Ambedkar resorted to identity of caste for political purposes. He formed Indian Labour Party. He formed Depressed classes League and he formed Republican Party of India, all showing his concerns and ideals of how he wished to fight the question of discrimination. To eradicate the caste identity of different Dalit communities or Scheduled Castes, as they are called constitutionally, Ambedkar redefined Buddhism in a radical humanist way and termed it as Navayana. I am not going to discuss the issue here.. The point I want to make it is that Ambedkar’s quest for a progressive Dalit identity beyond caste has not been properly followed up by those who claim his legacy purely on the basis of his caste. For the parties claiming his legacy he was ‘their’ leader only. For the Hindu upper caste parties, he became a ‘Dalit leader’therefore relegating him to the confinement in urban slums and Dalitwadas of the villages. The irony was that a modern man like Ambedkar whose democratic spirit could have been the meeting ground for the forces of change, became victim of caste identities in India. In the parliamentary democracy of First Past the Post System, which Ambedkar himself actually felt inadequate to protect the interest of the Dalits, the politics is fast turning into a game of identities where the minority identity have no meaning. It is fast merging with the broader majoritarian identity as the slogan grew up in the air ‘jisaki jitani sankhya bhari uski utni sajhedari.. the more numbers you have, the bigger the share in power structure. Nowhere, it has any insurance for the minorities. It claims to reserve seats for them according to their number but the fact is that the concept of this kind of politics has fragmented the Dalit politics further, with more and more leaders focusing on their primary caste identities to get into vote bank politics. Hence, those whose castes have more numbers get the leverage of power and those who do not have suffered in this process despite their efforts. We have seen many Dalit leaders who have focused on their issues more than any other political leaders and getting marginalized in the process because the sheer number of their castes. What is this? I call it depoliticisation of the Dalits and their issues which is very dangerous as those who really do not work and are expert manipulators can get elected in their names. More so because, the democracy is actually going in the hands of those forces which are anti democratic and have no faith in it. Dalits who got their legitimate rights through democratic means today feel betrayed by this. As we use symbol to tell the world that the Dalits have been empowered in India, it is time to look into the ugly realities of the process. We can see the process of political changes in two most populous states of Uttar-Pradesh and Bihar. Both were the first one where the National parties got thoroughly marginalized and a large number of the Dalit-OBC ( the Other Backward communities, artisan-peasantry) dominated the political process since 1990. But this broader unity of Dalit-Bahujan could have changed the entire polity in India but because the individual leaders and their egos became bigger than their political parties which became one man/woman show and no internal democracy in these parties resulted in collapsing these forces. Added on this was the attempt by the intellectual and leaders of these forces equating every one who is a non Dalit-or OBC as Manuwadi-or Brahmanical while purely ignoring or conspicuously side tracking the issue of their political leaders hobnobbing with right wing Hindu Nationalist party BJP. Anti Brahmanism and anti ritualism is the quintessential central theme of the Dalit-Bahujan theory but this does not apply to the High Caste Hindus only, it applies to the leadership and communities themselves. Unfortunately, whether it is politics or so-called social movements, except for a few, most of the Dalit-Bahujan politics became a rhetorical agitated one harping on the victimized politics while clearly failing to address the issue of inter community dialogue and clarity of ideological perspectives. Hence a broad movement which had the power to change power equations in India became an instrument to keep their flock together by abusing the High caste Hindus during the day and dine with them in the night and strategizing things with them, to monopolise the power structure with one particular community. As I said earlier democracy is essentially an alliance building exercise based on ideology but here alliance building was a criminal alliance of one particular community with other one ( both stronger ones and numerically powerful one) resulting in the marginalization of the other communities among the Dalits and backward castes who were numerically non existent. This happened in Bihar where a backward leader made alliance with Muslims. His Yadav and Muslim community made a lethal alliance and ruled the state for nearly 20 years but without any developmental work. Similar thing happened in UP where the chief minister Mayawati combined her caste strength i.e. Chamars with the Brahmins much to resentment of the other Dalit communities. There again the government forgot basic Dalit agenda of governance like land reform, education and health sector focus or any new scheme for the poor. The result was that, the Chamars themselves got fed up with the government where they were just fodder to give the Brahmins a power and fell out of the government. In Bihar also, the other marginalized and mostly Dalits revolted and allowed a new government in power. The continuous assertion and democratization process in India will continue. Every community which has been left in the race want political representation and can not be satisfied with our romantification of a broad Dalit-Bahujan concept to give a few elite to capture power in their name and become dictator and use state tools as a fancy for their personal wills. People will question leaders and thrash them if they fail to deliver. India’s transition to democracy is still in process and the Dalits and other marginalized communities its biggest asset. The democratization process will bring new leaders from the marginalized communities. One phase where the middleman masquerading politicians came to power structure in the name of identity but mere identity does not work. People want to development, people want their voices... and they are not ready that some one in the name of their identity, grab power structure and use it for his/her personal gains which was widely perceived. The political leaders will have to democratize themselves and address the basic issues the community. India has one of the best constitutions but it is rarely implemented fully. Dalit-Bahujan power polity need to first stick to its basic preambles and lead from the personal example. How can they ignore the rich legacy of Ambedkar-Phule and Periyar, each one of them person of high integrity and deeply committed to the cause of oppressed communities? It is time that this legacy is carried forward by the current leadership with basic principals by becoming modern, democratize yourself and with a humanist perspective. Dalit Bahujan politics can not be exclusive in nature but more broad, open minded and inclusive and should provide an idea which did not exist in the brahmanical mind set, the idea of freedom and humanism its basic tenants, as it lead those communities which were victim of the caste system in India. The Dalit movement can not be a movement of caste identities but beyond that providing alternative political theory in India. May be the beginning could be made with giving representation to different marginalized communities with in the power structure of the political parties that they care for the numerically lesser communities who do not matter much in terms of vote or who can not become vote bank. Our current parliamentary system does not do justice to these most marginalized communities and hence Dalit empowerment will only be of a particular individual with political heritage of the family. It results in hegemony of one family or individual by destructing the monopoly of others. Idea of governance remain a far cry in this entire scheme as the entire focus revolve around identity turning the entire community as apolitical and making leaders much bigger then the political parties and movement. Such a situation is dangerous for the communities. But fortunately, the current Lok Sabha election while springing some surprises also sends a stern message to these political parties that they can not take people for granted in the name of identity... now time is to deliver to them. You can not have an identity without good education, economic conditions and social change for equality. Unfortunately, those who harp more on caste have lost their idea of how to annihilate it. Caste can not be simply strengthened to market a few individual and their megalomaniac vision about themselves. The issue of caste and Dalits is actually need to be addressed as the civil rights movement in the United States. It is important that it is not become a few seats in parliament and empowerment of the elite leaders in the name of communities. It has to be broad movement for human rights and human dignity. It has to be a movement against the religious rituals and holy texts which kept them subjugated for centuries and enslaved their minds. Humanists have that capacity to deliver it as they believe in that today’s dalits have the capacity and democracy has provided them alternative. Only a modern democratic theory with republican ideas as envisioned by Dr Ambedkar can be their true emancipator otherwise, caste based identities are threatening basic Dalit unity in the country and it is fast becoming a self defeating exercise. Vidya Bhushan Rawat is a secular humanist based in Delhi and working with Social Development Foundation, Delhi. His writings can be accessed at www.manukhsi.blogspot.com and he can be contacted at vbrawat at gmail.com -- http://venukm.blogspot.com/ From indersalim at gmail.com Sun Jun 14 20:36:34 2009 From: indersalim at gmail.com (Inder Salim) Date: Sun, 14 Jun 2009 20:36:34 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Pasmanda Intellectuals' Forum Questions... In-Reply-To: <906681.85737.qm@web57204.mail.re3.yahoo.com> References: <906681.85737.qm@web57204.mail.re3.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <47e122a70906140806n30e9663dj591174245e4ee362@mail.gmail.com> thanks Kshmendra ji for this link, Javed's reflections to Arshad was quite limited in scope, however sincere. Here, just to add, about kashmir: Wattal ( low caste muslims in kashmir ) are located in their own mohallas, own coloines,with their own shrines, graveyards and mosques, their music and marrainge cermonies are a shade different than the main stream,. then we have people Hanz, ( fishermen) who are traditionally live around river and dal lake,. they too have their own systems of living, and here again, markedly differnent from others, no marraiges between similar faiths, then we have gujjar and bakarwal muslims living around the periphery of kashmir mountain range who are quite far from mainstream upper caste muslims in kashmir. Yoginder Sikands's research in the subject is well placed and questions the so called monolithic Mulsim community in India. The political vocabullary is so limited and ruthless, often createinng an imaginery enemy there are communities within muslim society in indi which are truly opressed and below poverty level, which needs redressal. love is On Sun, Jun 14, 2009 at 4:48 PM, Kshmendra Kaul wrote: > > You might like to read through the following: > > - "Islam And Caste Inequality Among Indian Muslims" > http://www.countercurrents.org/sikand150204.htm > > > > --- On Sat, 6/13/09, M Javed wrote: > > > From: M Javed > Subject: Re: [Reader-list] Pasmanda Intellectuals' Forum Questions... > To: "arshad amanullah" > Cc: reader-list at sarai.net > Date: Saturday, June 13, 2009, 9:59 PM > > > Dear Arshad > I have never figured out if I am a pasmanda or ashraf or ajlaf. How > does one find that out. I don't have a tag of a caste or sub-caste > with my name, nor have I ever been told by my parents or family about > it. And how do the selectors of a job like a VC find out if a > candidate is a pasmanda or ashraf. Apparently "Ansaris" are supposed > to be the ajlaf or pasmanda, but Hamid Ansari (our vice-president) and > so many other Ansaris have been among the elite of the Muslims for so > many generations. So how does it work out then. > > Javed > > On 6/13/09, arshad amanullah wrote: >> [With apologies for X-posting] >> >> An Open Letter to the President Ms. Pratibha Patil >> >> >> The last two decades in Indian democracy have witnessed wider >> acknowledgement and interrogation of the disproportionate hegemony of >> upper castes in the structures of power. Quite clearly such overt >> domination of a few elite oligarchic caste groups in decision making >> processes runs against the pluralist and democratic ambitions of the >> Indian Constitution. The persistence of such trends does not augur >> well for the future of this nation. >> >> The legitimacy of the category of caste in non-Hindu (minority) >> communities is now officially established. The inclusion of 82 Muslim >> caste groups in the OBC list of the Mandal Commission Report in 1990 >> was a watershed event in this context. The presence of caste in Muslim >> community is also reaffirmed by the recent Sachhar Committee Report >> and the report of the Ranganath Mishra Commission on Linguistic >> Minorities. >> >> Moreover, apart from the official recognition there is a strong >> movement among the dalit/backward caste Muslims that is gaining ground >> in North India (especially UP and Bihar). The movement is called the >> ‘Pasmanda Movement’ and it is articulating the anxiety and anger of >> the Pasmanda Muslim sections over their blatant social exclusion. It >> must be borne in mind that the Pasmanda Muslims (dalit/backward caste >> Muslims; also called ajlaf and arzal) constitute about 75% of the >> Indian Muslim population (the remaining 25% is formed by the upper >> caste ashraf Muslims). The politics of numeric should itself suffice >> to suggest that their claims can not be taken lightly. The >> marginalisation of Pasmanda Muslims from state and community-controlle >> d institutions is an issue that perhaps needs to be urgently >> addressed. >> >> In this context, the recent reports about the selection process of the >> Vice-Chancellor (VC) of the Jamia Milia Islamiya University (JMI), New >> Delhi have once again disappointed the Pasmanda Muslim sections. In >> historical terms, ‘Muslim’ institutions like AMU and JMI have >> exhibited strong rigidity in accommodating persons from non-ashraf >> social locations as VC’s. If the claims of the Pasmanda Movement are >> true then not even a single VC in these institutions has been >> appointed from the Pasmanda Muslim communities since Independence (Mr. >> Hamid Ansari, the former VC of AMU who is usually taken to be a >> Pasmanda Muslim arguably comes from an ashraf family). Quite clearly >> the empanelment process of the Vice Chancellor in these two >> institutions is a strong testimony to such prejudices. >> >> Recently, a ‘Search Committee’ (comprising Justice Saghir Ahmed, Syed >> Hamid and Prof. Yashpal) constituted a panel of five persons for the >> Vice Chancellorship of JMI (see: The Indian Express, New Delhi >> edition, 12 June 2009) and submitted it to the President (visitor to >> the University). The panel includes Mr. Afzal Amanullah, Prof. >> Mushirul Hasan, Prof. Faizan Ahmad, Mr. Najeeb Jung and Mr. Mohd >> Shakeel Ahmad. While two members in the panel are academics, the rest >> are bureaucrats. Remarkably, neither the search committee nor the >> panel includes even a single name from non-ashraf Muslim communities! >> >> There are credible reports that an IAS officer from the UP cadre Mr. >> Anis Ansari, who also comes from a Pasmanda biradari, did offer his CV >> for the purpose. Moreover, having served as Secretary Agriculture and >> as Agricultural Production Controller (APC) of UP twice he did have >> the experience of managing and dealing with the affairs of higher >> education (including the prestigious Pantnagar Agriculture >> University). Besides, he has also served at the level of Additional >> Chief Secretary of UP and has held key positions in the departments of >> Rural Development, Industry and Urban Development etc. Yet his name >> was not deemed fit to be even mentioned in the panel of five. What is >> more remarkable is the fact that all the other bureaucrats favoured >> over him are either junior to him or had dissociated themselves from >> public service by taking voluntary retirement from the IAS way back >> (Mr. Najeeb Jung and Mr. Mohd Shakeel Ahmad). The selection process of >> the panel clearly underlines the strong and deeply entrenched >> prejudice against the Pasmanda Muslim communities. Afterall, what >> explains this anomaly and elision if not caste discrimination of the >> worst order? >> >> What is even more intriguing is that India, a nation of one billion >> people, is so deficient in human resources that a man in his 80’s, and >> with all the problems that old age brings, is allowed to play >> arbitrary and decisive roles in the affairs of ‘Muslim’ institutions >> in particular and the affairs of the Muslim community in general. >> Moreover, this particular person is highly distrusted by the Pasmanda >> sections of Muslims and his prejudices against a particular region are >> more than evident. He, in the capacity of AMU-VC, outrageously denied >> admissions to many students of Bihar. The aggregate of marks awarded >> by Bihar School Exam Board were supposed by him to be unduly inflated >> and hence he initiated the practice of deducting 5% marks from the >> aggregate while preparing the merit list for admissions to 11th >> standard in AMU. >> >> Let us reiterate that all these events are being monitored with >> anxious curiosity by the Pasmanda Muslim sections and all democratic >> citizens of this country. This is high time that the process of >> democratisation is initiated in ‘Muslim’ institutions and other >> structures of power. The Search Committee, the Executive Council and >> other such bodies of JMI, AMU et cetera must be made socially >> representative. >> >> In this respect, the appointment of the VC for JMI forms the acid test >> for Indian democracy and the commitment of the government of the day >> to the issues of social justice and social exclusion. The anger and >> frustration is brewing in Pasmanda Muslim communities over these >> repeated acts and instances of their structural marginalisation. >> >>  We, therefore, request the President Ms. Pratibha Patil to look into >> this matter and do the need-some. Moreover, we urge her to reinitiate >> the process of empanelment for the VC of JMI so as to ensure greater >> transparency and address the anomalies in the present panel >> convincingly. We sincerely hope that she will consider the sentiments >> of the huge Pasmanda Muslim masses before arriving at a suitable >> decision. >> >> >> 'Pasmanda Intellectuals' Forum, New Delhi >> >> >> ***The Pasmanda Intellectual’s Forum (PIF) is a small informal group >> of activists, journalists and intellectuals who deliberate on the >> issues concerning pasmanda and other subaltern sections like bahujans, >> gender, working classes, tribals and so on. They aspire for a plural >> and democratic India and strive to intervene in issues that take >> forward this agenda. Their overriding concern is to provide visibility >> to marginalized issues by articulating it and bringing it to the >> public sphere so that an informed debate can take place on the same. >> It does not have a formal hierarchical structure and is facilitated by >> a Coordinating Committee. Though it operates out of Delhi it has no >> spatial limitations and is open to all democratic citizens from any >> caste, creed, gender, class or religious location. >> >> At present the Coordinating Committee comprises Mr. Ashok Yadav >> (Patna), Mr. Noor Hasan Azad (Patna), Mohd. Hishamuddin (Patna), Mr. >> Raza Abbas (Aligarh), Dr. Mohd. Sajjad (Aligarh), Mr. Khalid Anis >> Ansari (New Delhi), Mr.Qasim Ansari (New Delhi), Mr. Naresh Kumar >> (Lucknow).*** >> _________________________________________ >> reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. >> Critiques & Collaborations >> To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with subscribe >> in the subject header. >> To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list >> List archive: > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with subscribe in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: > > > > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with subscribe in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: -- http://indersalim.livejournal.com From shahzulf at yahoo.com Sun Jun 14 20:44:23 2009 From: shahzulf at yahoo.com (Zulfiqar Shah) Date: Sun, 14 Jun 2009 08:14:23 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Reader-list] =?utf-8?q?Call_for_judicial_inquiry_into_political_?= =?utf-8?q?activists=E2=80=99_killing_by_police?= Message-ID: <550868.95968.qm@web38808.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Call for judicial inquiry into political activists’ killing by police   Daily Dawn   HYDERABAD, June 12: The Joint Action Committee for People’s Rights, Sindh, on Friday condemned killing of political activists in Karachi and Hyderabad during protest against the influx of internally displaced persons (IDPs) into Sindh and demanded high-level judicial inquiry into the killings. The committee observed at a meeting that the reaction of the political activists against the influx was the reaction of the entire Sindhi nation. It said the people of Sindh had right to raise voice for their sovereignty guaranteed under the international charter of rights and the constitution of Pakistan. The action committee said it was highly regrettable that such inhuman atrocities were being committed by a party which had received 100 per cent votes of Sindhi people. That party had crossed all limits, it said. Police and Rangers could not have targeted the peaceful protesters in Jamshoro and Karachi without the orders of the home department, the meeting noted. Expressing surprise over a statement of the ministers concerned that they had not issued any such orders, the meeting urged the government to explain as to who was responsible for giving orders to kill peaceful protesters. The committee demanded a high-level judicial inquiry into the killings and an exemplary punishment to the perpetrators of the crime. Leaders of the action committee were of the considered opinion that the target killings of the political activists was linked with recent killings in Karachi. Basic purpose of those killings was to sabotage the political process and movements emerging in Sindh, the meeting said. Supporting reaction of the people of Sindh to the influx of IDPs, it demanded that according to international practices, the federal government should confine the displaced persons to the camps.However, the committee said the civil society of Sindh would contribute their share to ameliorate IDPs condition. The Sindh government was spending Rs30 billion per year on Rangers, but the law enforcement agency was “involved in the killings of political activists in Jamshoro and Karachiit said. The action committee said Rangers had failed to eliminate terrorism in the urban areas and resolve tribal disputes, and control robberies and lawlessness in upper Sindh. The meeting demanded deployment of Rangers to protect the borders and more attention to training, discipline and salaries of the Sindh police. The action committee announced holding a demonstration in Hyderabad on Saturday against the killings of political activists and also to convene an APC on that issue. People attending the meeting included Zulfiqar Shah, Punhal Sario, Mustafa Baloch, Zain Daudpoto and Ghaffar Malik. http://www.dawn.com/wps/wcm/connect/dawn-content-library/dawn/the-newspaper/national/call-for-judicial-inquiry-into-political-activists-killing-by-police-369 New Email addresses available on Yahoo! Get the Email name you've always wanted on the new @ymail and @rocketmail. Hurry before someone else does! http://mail.promotions.yahoo.com/newdomains/aa/ From yasir.media at gmail.com Sun Jun 14 20:50:55 2009 From: yasir.media at gmail.com (=?windows-1256?B?eWFzaXIgfu3HINPR?=) Date: Sun, 14 Jun 2009 20:20:55 +0500 Subject: [Reader-list] Pasmanda Intellectuals' Forum Questions... In-Reply-To: <47e122a70906140806n30e9663dj591174245e4ee362@mail.gmail.com> References: <906681.85737.qm@web57204.mail.re3.yahoo.com> <47e122a70906140806n30e9663dj591174245e4ee362@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <5af37bb0906140820g4f9eaa84k49134a5aa373fcd6@mail.gmail.com> In fact its like that everywhere. South asian has been described as homo hierarchus, and we have very vertical societies, meaning layers and layers very deep. the zaat and caste, biradari, clan (with some/ afew new additions and adjustments) has just not changed very much. I dont think social change has had substantial effect on that. certainly not among muslim zaats, castes, biradaris, clans. On Sun, Jun 14, 2009 at 8:06 PM, Inder Salim wrote: > thanks Kshmendra ji > for this link, > > Javed's reflections to Arshad was quite limited in scope, however sincere. > > Here, just to add, about kashmir: Wattal ( low caste muslims in > kashmir ) are located in their own mohallas, own coloines,with their > own shrines, graveyards and mosques, their music and marrainge > cermonies are a shade different than the main stream,. > > then we have people Hanz, ( fishermen) who are traditionally live > around river and dal lake,. they too have their own systems of living, > and here again, markedly differnent from others, no marraiges between > similar faiths, > > then we have gujjar and bakarwal muslims living around the periphery > of kashmir mountain range who are quite far from mainstream upper > caste muslims in kashmir. > > Yoginder Sikands's research in the subject is well placed and > questions the so called monolithic Mulsim community in India. > The political vocabullary is so limited and ruthless, often createinng > an imaginery enemy > > there are communities within muslim society in indi which are truly > opressed and below poverty level, which needs redressal. > > > love > is > > > On Sun, Jun 14, 2009 at 4:48 PM, Kshmendra Kaul > wrote: > > > > You might like to read through the following: > > > > - "Islam And Caste Inequality Among Indian Muslims" > > http://www.countercurrents.org/sikand150204.htm > > > > > > > > --- On Sat, 6/13/09, M Javed wrote: > > > > > > From: M Javed > > Subject: Re: [Reader-list] Pasmanda Intellectuals' Forum Questions... > > To: "arshad amanullah" > > Cc: reader-list at sarai.net > > Date: Saturday, June 13, 2009, 9:59 PM > > > > > > Dear Arshad > > I have never figured out if I am a pasmanda or ashraf or ajlaf. How > > does one find that out. I don't have a tag of a caste or sub-caste > > with my name, nor have I ever been told by my parents or family about > > it. And how do the selectors of a job like a VC find out if a > > candidate is a pasmanda or ashraf. Apparently "Ansaris" are supposed > > to be the ajlaf or pasmanda, but Hamid Ansari (our vice-president) and > > so many other Ansaris have been among the elite of the Muslims for so > > many generations. So how does it work out then. > > > > Javed > > > > On 6/13/09, arshad amanullah wrote: > >> [With apologies for X-posting] > >> > >> An Open Letter to the President Ms. Pratibha Patil > >> > >> > >> The last two decades in Indian democracy have witnessed wider > >> acknowledgement and interrogation of the disproportionate hegemony of > >> upper castes in the structures of power. Quite clearly such overt > >> domination of a few elite oligarchic caste groups in decision making > >> processes runs against the pluralist and democratic ambitions of the > >> Indian Constitution. The persistence of such trends does not augur > >> well for the future of this nation. > >> > >> The legitimacy of the category of caste in non-Hindu (minority) > >> communities is now officially established. The inclusion of 82 Muslim > >> caste groups in the OBC list of the Mandal Commission Report in 1990 > >> was a watershed event in this context. The presence of caste in Muslim > >> community is also reaffirmed by the recent Sachhar Committee Report > >> and the report of the Ranganath Mishra Commission on Linguistic > >> Minorities. > >> > >> Moreover, apart from the official recognition there is a strong > >> movement among the dalit/backward caste Muslims that is gaining ground > >> in North India (especially UP and Bihar). The movement is called the > >> ‘Pasmanda Movement’ and it is articulating the anxiety and anger of > >> the Pasmanda Muslim sections over their blatant social exclusion. It > >> must be borne in mind that the Pasmanda Muslims (dalit/backward caste > >> Muslims; also called ajlaf and arzal) constitute about 75% of the > >> Indian Muslim population (the remaining 25% is formed by the upper > >> caste ashraf Muslims). The politics of numeric should itself suffice > >> to suggest that their claims can not be taken lightly. The > >> marginalisation of Pasmanda Muslims from state and community-controlle > >> d institutions is an issue that perhaps needs to be urgently > >> addressed. > >> > >> In this context, the recent reports about the selection process of the > >> Vice-Chancellor (VC) of the Jamia Milia Islamiya University (JMI), New > >> Delhi have once again disappointed the Pasmanda Muslim sections. In > >> historical terms, ‘Muslim’ institutions like AMU and JMI have > >> exhibited strong rigidity in accommodating persons from non-ashraf > >> social locations as VC’s. If the claims of the Pasmanda Movement are > >> true then not even a single VC in these institutions has been > >> appointed from the Pasmanda Muslim communities since Independence (Mr. > >> Hamid Ansari, the former VC of AMU who is usually taken to be a > >> Pasmanda Muslim arguably comes from an ashraf family). Quite clearly > >> the empanelment process of the Vice Chancellor in these two > >> institutions is a strong testimony to such prejudices. > >> > >> Recently, a ‘Search Committee’ (comprising Justice Saghir Ahmed, Syed > >> Hamid and Prof. Yashpal) constituted a panel of five persons for the > >> Vice Chancellorship of JMI (see: The Indian Express, New Delhi > >> edition, 12 June 2009) and submitted it to the President (visitor to > >> the University). The panel includes Mr. Afzal Amanullah, Prof. > >> Mushirul Hasan, Prof. Faizan Ahmad, Mr. Najeeb Jung and Mr. Mohd > >> Shakeel Ahmad. While two members in the panel are academics, the rest > >> are bureaucrats. Remarkably, neither the search committee nor the > >> panel includes even a single name from non-ashraf Muslim communities! > >> > >> There are credible reports that an IAS officer from the UP cadre Mr. > >> Anis Ansari, who also comes from a Pasmanda biradari, did offer his CV > >> for the purpose. Moreover, having served as Secretary Agriculture and > >> as Agricultural Production Controller (APC) of UP twice he did have > >> the experience of managing and dealing with the affairs of higher > >> education (including the prestigious Pantnagar Agriculture > >> University). Besides, he has also served at the level of Additional > >> Chief Secretary of UP and has held key positions in the departments of > >> Rural Development, Industry and Urban Development etc. Yet his name > >> was not deemed fit to be even mentioned in the panel of five. What is > >> more remarkable is the fact that all the other bureaucrats favoured > >> over him are either junior to him or had dissociated themselves from > >> public service by taking voluntary retirement from the IAS way back > >> (Mr. Najeeb Jung and Mr. Mohd Shakeel Ahmad). The selection process of > >> the panel clearly underlines the strong and deeply entrenched > >> prejudice against the Pasmanda Muslim communities. Afterall, what > >> explains this anomaly and elision if not caste discrimination of the > >> worst order? > >> > >> What is even more intriguing is that India, a nation of one billion > >> people, is so deficient in human resources that a man in his 80’s, and > >> with all the problems that old age brings, is allowed to play > >> arbitrary and decisive roles in the affairs of ‘Muslim’ institutions > >> in particular and the affairs of the Muslim community in general. > >> Moreover, this particular person is highly distrusted by the Pasmanda > >> sections of Muslims and his prejudices against a particular region are > >> more than evident. He, in the capacity of AMU-VC, outrageously denied > >> admissions to many students of Bihar. The aggregate of marks awarded > >> by Bihar School Exam Board were supposed by him to be unduly inflated > >> and hence he initiated the practice of deducting 5% marks from the > >> aggregate while preparing the merit list for admissions to 11th > >> standard in AMU. > >> > >> Let us reiterate that all these events are being monitored with > >> anxious curiosity by the Pasmanda Muslim sections and all democratic > >> citizens of this country. This is high time that the process of > >> democratisation is initiated in ‘Muslim’ institutions and other > >> structures of power. The Search Committee, the Executive Council and > >> other such bodies of JMI, AMU et cetera must be made socially > >> representative. > >> > >> In this respect, the appointment of the VC for JMI forms the acid test > >> for Indian democracy and the commitment of the government of the day > >> to the issues of social justice and social exclusion. The anger and > >> frustration is brewing in Pasmanda Muslim communities over these > >> repeated acts and instances of their structural marginalisation. > >> > >> We, therefore, request the President Ms. Pratibha Patil to look into > >> this matter and do the need-some. Moreover, we urge her to reinitiate > >> the process of empanelment for the VC of JMI so as to ensure greater > >> transparency and address the anomalies in the present panel > >> convincingly. We sincerely hope that she will consider the sentiments > >> of the huge Pasmanda Muslim masses before arriving at a suitable > >> decision. > >> > >> > >> 'Pasmanda Intellectuals' Forum, New Delhi > >> > >> > >> ***The Pasmanda Intellectual’s Forum (PIF) is a small informal group > >> of activists, journalists and intellectuals who deliberate on the > >> issues concerning pasmanda and other subaltern sections like bahujans, > >> gender, working classes, tribals and so on. They aspire for a plural > >> and democratic India and strive to intervene in issues that take > >> forward this agenda. Their overriding concern is to provide visibility > >> to marginalized issues by articulating it and bringing it to the > >> public sphere so that an informed debate can take place on the same. > >> It does not have a formal hierarchical structure and is facilitated by > >> a Coordinating Committee. Though it operates out of Delhi it has no > >> spatial limitations and is open to all democratic citizens from any > >> caste, creed, gender, class or religious location. > >> > >> At present the Coordinating Committee comprises Mr. Ashok Yadav > >> (Patna), Mr. Noor Hasan Azad (Patna), Mohd. Hishamuddin (Patna), Mr. > >> Raza Abbas (Aligarh), Dr. Mohd. Sajjad (Aligarh), Mr. Khalid Anis > >> Ansari (New Delhi), Mr.Qasim Ansari (New Delhi), Mr. Naresh Kumar > >> (Lucknow).*** > >> _________________________________________ > >> reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > >> Critiques & Collaborations > >> To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > subscribe > >> in the subject header. > >> To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > >> List archive: > > _________________________________________ > > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > > Critiques & Collaborations > > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > subscribe in the subject header. > > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > > List archive: > > > > > > > > _________________________________________ > > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > > Critiques & Collaborations > > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > subscribe in the subject header. > > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > > List archive: > > > > -- > > http://indersalim.livejournal.com > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > subscribe in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> From indersalim at gmail.com Sun Jun 14 21:16:36 2009 From: indersalim at gmail.com (Inder Salim) Date: Sun, 14 Jun 2009 21:16:36 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Justice for Nilofer and Asiya In-Reply-To: <287058.29546.qm@web57205.mail.re3.yahoo.com> References: <287058.29546.qm@web57205.mail.re3.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <47e122a70906140846y2cb38fd1m178c41cd7ec23ee1@mail.gmail.com> I too felt RIK's change of heart, which is good, we all need to realize that unless we dont see the pain and suffering in a most humanely possible way, irrespective of other's predudices, we are likely to misjudge the quantum of reality that affects all of us, universally. however, about the article by Adiyta ji, there is a clear say-no-to-army-involvement in the crime. Mr. Aditya has crticized attempts that point a finger at security forces, which again offsets the very claim that RIK shares the grief of the loss of two murdered women in shopian. let the facts come out, and till then if the army or police are questioned, so what, Army and other security forces are not saints in uniform, on the contrary they have contribued to tragedies in the past, and they are likely to rpeeat those brutal ways of opressing the other. yes, to be fair, to be impatial, always benfits in the end, and that is the lesson which RIK, i guess is learning very fast, which can affect the change of heart in the valley also. The animosity between kahsiri Muslims and kashmiri Pandits should come to an end, one day. If organizations like Panun Kahsmir, and other Hindu/Pandit orgs join the protest over the two murdered women then a fresh begning from both sides can be wished... it is good to feel, that there is a begining. love is On Sun, Jun 14, 2009 at 2:53 PM, Kshmendra Kaul wrote: > Dear Aditya > > """ In this hour of grief we are with the family of the victims. May God give > them power to overcome this grief .We at Roots in Kashmir will do our best > to ensure that the family gets justice. Although we are in exile,yet we > mourn alongside the family of the victims.""""" > > This is a welcome attitude from "Roots in Kashmir" (RIK). Thanks. > > Kshmendra > > > --- On Sat, 6/13/09, Aditya Raj Kaul wrote: > > > From: Aditya Raj Kaul > Subject: [Reader-list] Justice for Nilofer and Asiya > To: "sarai list" > Date: Saturday, June 13, 2009, 3:18 PM > > > Justice for Nilofer and > Asiya > *Visit *- > http://kashmiris-in-exile.blogspot.com/2009/06/justice-for-nilofer-and-asiya.html > > Shopian looks like a ghost town today. There are no people on the streets. > The shops are shut wide and the atmosphere of gloom looms large over an > otherwise bustling suburb. The rape and murder of two young women has left > the town full of bitterness, anger and hopelessness. > > There obviously are no two ways about the fact that the ghastly murder and > rape should invite severest possible criticism with a strong call for > finding the perpetrators of this heinous crime and punishing them in a > manner as to make an example of them. But here we are. The young prince > dismissed their rape and killing as a simple case of drowning. As a Chief > Minister of the State shouldn’t he have been a little more prudent than this > clownish dad. He should have at-least bothered to know the depth of the > water in Rembyaer Nallah in this season. As someone who has crossed this > Nallah even without his knees getting wet I must say that the Chief Minister > was at his apathetic and ignorant best. Little did he realise that a man as > perverse as Yasin Malik or Bitta Karate is roaming free to commit more > crimes. > > The day the badly bruised bodies of Nilofer and Asiya were recovered, they > bore marks of what seemed like molestation if not rape. Their clothes were > torn and bodies disfigured. Yet the Police dismissed it as a case of > drowning. Forensic reports now confirm the rape of a pregnant Nilofer and a > studious and intelligent Asiya. > > *Two grown up women drowning in knee deep water! > * > This led to huge protests all over the valley. A simple word of acceptance > of the crimecould have avoided all that happened later. The separatists were > quick to latch on some food. After all the Young Prince had given them a > stick to beat with which they could beat him, the army, the establishment > and India. The beastly Mehbooba wasn’t the one to be left behind. Despite > the fact that her party-men were beaten on way to Shopian, she looked at it > as opportunity she was in no mood to let go off. The sexually frustrated > Asiya Andrabi too took to streets with her band of Dark Scary Images. *The > calls for justice soon got lost in the din of cries for Azadi and removal > for AFSPA. > * > This obviously is no time for politicking. Unequivocally we condemn the > State governments handling of this entire episode. What was ideally a law an > order problem has now spun into a huge controversy thanks to the kid who our > National Media projects as the best thing to have happened to India after > the birth of Mahatma Gandhi. Apart from firing the SP of Shopian(who > obviously deserves to be fired) the Chief Minister should also have resigned > for the way he led Kashmir to one more crisis. > > *Nilofer’s husband, Shakeel Ahmed has said time and again that he wants > justice and not Azadi. Unfortunately what he gets is denials and more > denials and now an enquiry commission. The State ought to show its concern > for its people irrespective of their political alignments. But then that > virtue is lost long time back.* > > *In this hour of grief we are with the family of the victims. May God give > them power to overcome this grief .We at Roots in Kashmir will do our best > to ensure that the family gets justice. Although we are in exile,yet we > mourn alongside the family of the victims. > > The need of the hour is that the Chief Minister personally meets the family > and apologises for his errant comments and asks the commission to submit a > report in a time bound manner and then act fast to punish the culprits of > this sick crime. It may not bring them their dear ones back but at-least it > would restore the confidence of the people in the State. > * > > > *pls do leave your comments here - > http://kashmiris-in-exile.blogspot.com/2009/06/justice-for-nilofer-and-asiya.html > * > > > *thanks* > > *Aditya Raj Kaul* > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with subscribe in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: > > > > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with subscribe in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: -- http://indersalim.livejournal.com From lalitambardar at hotmail.com Mon Jun 15 02:38:23 2009 From: lalitambardar at hotmail.com (Lalit Ambardar) Date: Sun, 14 Jun 2009 21:08:23 +0000 Subject: [Reader-list] Justice for Nilofer and Asiya In-Reply-To: <47e122a70906140846y2cb38fd1m178c41cd7ec23ee1@mail.gmail.com> References: <287058.29546.qm@web57205.mail.re3.yahoo.com> <47e122a70906140846y2cb38fd1m178c41cd7ec23ee1@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: This 'change of heart' comment appears to be out of place here. Those who have suffered themselves can not be seen rejoicing over the agony of others.It is natural that Kashmiri Hindu Pandits who suffered ethnic cleasnsing & are seeking justice for the crimes commited against them will not remain indifferent on humanitarian grounds to the tagedy that has struck this hapless family in Shopian. It is a fact that Kashmiri Muslims remained mute spectators & in many cases actually collaborated with the jihadis when their Hindu Pandit neighbours were being hounded out of their homes.Yet, contrary to the general perception,Pandits' anger & disappointment has never come in the way of their continued bonhomie with the Kashmiri Muslims at individual levels.It was the ousted & humiliated Hindu Pandit in exile who received & embraced his erstwhile Kashmiri Muslim neighbour,collegue whenever the later came calling. Kashmiri Pandits have not given up their right on Kashmir.They keenly follow the events & are quite concerned about the situation there.And a human tragedy of this kind is bound to evoke sympathy.Culprits must be apprehended & punished at the earliest.And if by any chance they happen to be from the law enforcing agencies, the punishment should be even harsher for a few black sheep can not be allowed to tarnish the image of the forces who continue to make extreme sacrifices in the battle against the pan Islamists. It is unfortunate that the tragedy of 'rape'& 'murder' is being used as a tool by the politicians as well as the other disruptive forces.Can Manmohan Singh's Govt.be accused of using 'rape' as a means to suppress? Criminalisation of the society in general is now a stark reality every where. Are uniformed men not found involved in heinous crimes in rest of India? Insidious degeneration in the social order ever since the inception of the pan Islamism inspired scessionist violence two decades ago has only compounded the 'tragedy of Kashmir'.A unique culture, which boasted of almost no major crime other than petty thefts or some pick pocketing, overnight saw adopting new terminologies like terrorists, Kalishnikovs,pistol,grenade,ethnic cleansing,Mukhbar(informer),crackdown,rape etc.etc...And those who self admittedly were responsible for initiating this drama of death & destruction are roaming free.Those who should have been tried for crimes against humanity have been allowed to acquire political legitimacy.Is it still surprising to see Kashmiri society brutalised? No one responsible for rape & murder of Kashmiri Hindu Pandits has ever been prosecuted.What happens to a society that allows freedom to the criminals? And who continues to suffer- it is the common Kashmiri Muslim in the valley & the exiled Kashmiri Pandit living as a refugee in his own country out side the valley now.The civil society in general & those supporting religion based Kashmiri scessionist movement overtly or covertly must take note of the frustration & the agony in the statement of the member of this poor family of Shopian that he was seeking 'justice' & not 'azadi'. 'hope justice & truth prevail. LA ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------ > Date: Sun, 14 Jun 2009 21:16:36 +0530 > From: indersalim at gmail.com > To: reader-list at sarai.net > Subject: Re: [Reader-list] Justice for Nilofer and Asiya > > I too felt RIK's change of heart, which is good, > > we all need to realize that unless we dont see the pain and suffering > in a most humanely possible way, irrespective of other's predudices, > we are likely to misjudge the quantum of reality that affects all of > us, universally. > > however, about the article by Adiyta ji, there is a clear > say-no-to-army-involvement in the crime. Mr. Aditya has crticized > attempts that point a finger at security forces, which again offsets > the very claim that RIK shares the grief of the loss of two murdered > women in shopian. > > let the facts come out, and till then if the army or police are > questioned, so what, Army and other security forces are not saints in > uniform, on the contrary > > they have contribued to tragedies in the past, and they are likely to > rpeeat those brutal ways of opressing the other. > > yes, to be fair, to be impatial, always benfits in the end, and that > is the lesson which RIK, i guess is learning very fast, which can > affect the change of heart in the valley also. The animosity between > kahsiri Muslims and kashmiri Pandits should come to an end, one day. > If organizations like Panun Kahsmir, and other Hindu/Pandit orgs join > the protest over the two murdered women then a fresh begning from both > sides can be wished... > > > it is good to feel, that there is a begining. > > love > is > > > > > On Sun, Jun 14, 2009 at 2:53 PM, Kshmendra Kaul wrote: > > Dear Aditya > > > > """ In this hour of grief we are with the family of the victims. May God give > > them power to overcome this grief .We at Roots in Kashmir will do our best > > to ensure that the family gets justice. Although we are in exile,yet we > > mourn alongside the family of the victims.""""" > > > > This is a welcome attitude from "Roots in Kashmir" (RIK). Thanks. > > > > Kshmendra > > > > > > --- On Sat, 6/13/09, Aditya Raj Kaul wrote: > > > > > > From: Aditya Raj Kaul > > Subject: [Reader-list] Justice for Nilofer and Asiya > > To: "sarai list" > > Date: Saturday, June 13, 2009, 3:18 PM > > > > > > Justice for Nilofer and > > Asiya > > *Visit *- > > http://kashmiris-in-exile.blogspot.com/2009/06/justice-for-nilofer-and-asiya.html > > > > Shopian looks like a ghost town today. There are no people on the streets. > > The shops are shut wide and the atmosphere of gloom looms large over an > > otherwise bustling suburb. The rape and murder of two young women has left > > the town full of bitterness, anger and hopelessness. > > > > There obviously are no two ways about the fact that the ghastly murder and > > rape should invite severest possible criticism with a strong call for > > finding the perpetrators of this heinous crime and punishing them in a > > manner as to make an example of them. But here we are. The young prince > > dismissed their rape and killing as a simple case of drowning. As a Chief > > Minister of the State shouldn’t he have been a little more prudent than this > > clownish dad. He should have at-least bothered to know the depth of the > > water in Rembyaer Nallah in this season. As someone who has crossed this > > Nallah even without his knees getting wet I must say that the Chief Minister > > was at his apathetic and ignorant best. Little did he realise that a man as > > perverse as Yasin Malik or Bitta Karate is roaming free to commit more > > crimes. > > > > The day the badly bruised bodies of Nilofer and Asiya were recovered, they > > bore marks of what seemed like molestation if not rape. Their clothes were > > torn and bodies disfigured. Yet the Police dismissed it as a case of > > drowning. Forensic reports now confirm the rape of a pregnant Nilofer and a > > studious and intelligent Asiya. > > > > *Two grown up women drowning in knee deep water! > > * > > This led to huge protests all over the valley. A simple word of acceptance > > of the crimecould have avoided all that happened later. The separatists were > > quick to latch on some food. After all the Young Prince had given them a > > stick to beat with which they could beat him, the army, the establishment > > and India. The beastly Mehbooba wasn’t the one to be left behind. Despite > > the fact that her party-men were beaten on way to Shopian, she looked at it > > as opportunity she was in no mood to let go off. The sexually frustrated > > Asiya Andrabi too took to streets with her band of Dark Scary Images. *The > > calls for justice soon got lost in the din of cries for Azadi and removal > > for AFSPA. > > * > > This obviously is no time for politicking. Unequivocally we condemn the > > State governments handling of this entire episode. What was ideally a law an > > order problem has now spun into a huge controversy thanks to the kid who our > > National Media projects as the best thing to have happened to India after > > the birth of Mahatma Gandhi. Apart from firing the SP of Shopian(who > > obviously deserves to be fired) the Chief Minister should also have resigned > > for the way he led Kashmir to one more crisis. > > > > *Nilofer’s husband, Shakeel Ahmed has said time and again that he wants > > justice and not Azadi. Unfortunately what he gets is denials and more > > denials and now an enquiry commission. The State ought to show its concern > > for its people irrespective of their political alignments. But then that > > virtue is lost long time back.* > > > > *In this hour of grief we are with the family of the victims. May God give > > them power to overcome this grief .We at Roots in Kashmir will do our best > > to ensure that the family gets justice. Although we are in exile,yet we > > mourn alongside the family of the victims. > > > > The need of the hour is that the Chief Minister personally meets the family > > and apologises for his errant comments and asks the commission to submit a > > report in a time bound manner and then act fast to punish the culprits of > > this sick crime. It may not bring them their dear ones back but at-least it > > would restore the confidence of the people in the State. > > * > > > > > > *pls do leave your comments here - > > http://kashmiris-in-exile.blogspot.com/2009/06/justice-for-nilofer-and-asiya.html > > * > > > > > > *thanks* > > > > *Aditya Raj Kaul* > > _________________________________________ > > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > > Critiques & Collaborations > > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with subscribe in the subject header. > > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > > List archive: > > > > > > > > _________________________________________ > > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > > Critiques & Collaborations > > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with subscribe in the subject header. > > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > > List archive: > > > > -- > > http://indersalim.livejournal.com > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with subscribe in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> _________________________________________________________________ Live Search extreme As India feels the heat of poll season, get all the info you need on the MSN News Aggregator http://news.in.msn.com/National/indiaelections2009/aggregator/default.aspx From rashneek at gmail.com Mon Jun 15 08:46:35 2009 From: rashneek at gmail.com (rashneek kher) Date: Mon, 15 Jun 2009 08:46:35 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Justice for Nilofer and Asiya In-Reply-To: References: <287058.29546.qm@web57205.mail.re3.yahoo.com> <47e122a70906140846y2cb38fd1m178c41cd7ec23ee1@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <13df7c120906142016obc25aa1o9930354c66b19bfe@mail.gmail.com> Dear Inder, The post is simple,it seeks justice for those raped and killed.I re-iterate that whosoever has done this crime should be hanged publicly in Shopian to make an example of him. At the same the separtists should be ashamed of themselves because they and their boys also have done the same and hence have no moral high ground on this.Yasin Malik is one. I hope you remember Sarla Bhat and how she was chopped on the saw mill. But thats not the issue here.The issue is about nilofer and Asiya. And you see no one has asked that alongside these unfortunate women,justice also be dispensed to Pandit women who were raped.The post is unequivocal about seeking justice for the family.No strings attached whatsoever. Best Regards rashneek On Mon, Jun 15, 2009 at 2:38 AM, Lalit Ambardar wrote: > > > > > > This 'change of heart' comment appears to be out of place here. > > Those who have suffered themselves can not be seen rejoicing over the agony > of others.It is natural that Kashmiri Hindu Pandits who suffered ethnic > cleasnsing & are seeking justice for the crimes commited against them will > not remain indifferent on humanitarian grounds to the tagedy that has struck > this hapless family in Shopian. > > > > It is a fact that Kashmiri Muslims remained mute spectators & in many cases > actually collaborated with the jihadis when their Hindu Pandit neighbours > were being hounded out of their homes.Yet, contrary to the general > perception,Pandits' anger & disappointment has never come in the way of > their continued bonhomie with the Kashmiri Muslims at individual levels.It > was the ousted & humiliated Hindu Pandit in exile who received & embraced > his erstwhile Kashmiri Muslim neighbour,collegue whenever the later came > calling. > > > > Kashmiri Pandits have not given up their right on Kashmir.They keenly > follow the events & are quite concerned about the situation there.And a > human tragedy of this kind is bound to evoke sympathy.Culprits must be > apprehended & punished at the earliest.And if by any chance they happen to > be from the law enforcing agencies, the punishment should be even harsher > for a few black sheep can not be allowed to tarnish the image of the forces > who continue to make extreme sacrifices in the battle against the pan > Islamists. > > > > It is unfortunate that the tragedy of 'rape'& 'murder' is being used as a > tool by the politicians as well as the other disruptive forces.Can Manmohan > Singh's Govt.be accused of using 'rape' as a means to suppress? > Criminalisation of the society in general is now a stark reality every > where. Are uniformed men not found involved in heinous crimes in rest of > India? > > Insidious degeneration in the social order ever since the inception of the > pan Islamism inspired scessionist violence two decades ago has only > compounded the 'tragedy of Kashmir'.A unique culture, which boasted of > almost no major crime other than petty thefts or some pick pocketing, > overnight saw adopting new terminologies like terrorists, > Kalishnikovs,pistol,grenade,ethnic > cleansing,Mukhbar(informer),crackdown,rape etc.etc...And those who self > admittedly were responsible for initiating this drama of death & destruction > are roaming free.Those who should have been tried for crimes against > humanity have been allowed to acquire political legitimacy.Is it still > surprising to see Kashmiri society brutalised? No one responsible for rape & > murder of Kashmiri Hindu Pandits has ever been prosecuted.What happens to a > society that allows freedom to the criminals? > > And who continues to suffer- it is the common Kashmiri Muslim in the valley > & the exiled Kashmiri Pandit living as a refugee in his own country out side > the valley now.The civil society in general & those supporting religion > based Kashmiri scessionist movement overtly or covertly must take note of > the frustration & the agony in the statement of the member of this poor > family of Shopian that he was seeking 'justice' & not 'azadi'. > > 'hope justice & truth prevail. > > LA > > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------ > > > > > > > > Date: Sun, 14 Jun 2009 21:16:36 +0530 > > From: indersalim at gmail.com > > To: reader-list at sarai.net > > Subject: Re: [Reader-list] Justice for Nilofer and Asiya > > > > I too felt RIK's change of heart, which is good, > > > > we all need to realize that unless we dont see the pain and suffering > > in a most humanely possible way, irrespective of other's predudices, > > we are likely to misjudge the quantum of reality that affects all of > > us, universally. > > > > however, about the article by Adiyta ji, there is a clear > > say-no-to-army-involvement in the crime. Mr. Aditya has crticized > > attempts that point a finger at security forces, which again offsets > > the very claim that RIK shares the grief of the loss of two murdered > > women in shopian. > > > > let the facts come out, and till then if the army or police are > > questioned, so what, Army and other security forces are not saints in > > uniform, on the contrary > > > > they have contribued to tragedies in the past, and they are likely to > > rpeeat those brutal ways of opressing the other. > > > > yes, to be fair, to be impatial, always benfits in the end, and that > > is the lesson which RIK, i guess is learning very fast, which can > > affect the change of heart in the valley also. The animosity between > > kahsiri Muslims and kashmiri Pandits should come to an end, one day. > > If organizations like Panun Kahsmir, and other Hindu/Pandit orgs join > > the protest over the two murdered women then a fresh begning from both > > sides can be wished... > > > > > > it is good to feel, that there is a begining. > > > > love > > is > > > > > > > > > > On Sun, Jun 14, 2009 at 2:53 PM, Kshmendra Kaul > wrote: > > > Dear Aditya > > > > > > """ In this hour of grief we are with the family of the victims. May > God give > > > them power to overcome this grief .We at Roots in Kashmir will do our > best > > > to ensure that the family gets justice. Although we are in exile,yet we > > > mourn alongside the family of the victims.""""" > > > > > > This is a welcome attitude from "Roots in Kashmir" (RIK). Thanks. > > > > > > Kshmendra > > > > > > > > > --- On Sat, 6/13/09, Aditya Raj Kaul wrote: > > > > > > > > > From: Aditya Raj Kaul > > > Subject: [Reader-list] Justice for Nilofer and Asiya > > > To: "sarai list" > > > Date: Saturday, June 13, 2009, 3:18 PM > > > > > > > > > Justice for Nilofer and > > > Asiya< > http://kashmiris-in-exile.blogspot.com/2009/06/justice-for-nilofer-and-asiya.html > > > > > *Visit *- > > > > http://kashmiris-in-exile.blogspot.com/2009/06/justice-for-nilofer-and-asiya.html > > > > > > Shopian looks like a ghost town today. There are no people on the > streets. > > > The shops are shut wide and the atmosphere of gloom looms large over an > > > otherwise bustling suburb. The rape and murder of two young women has > left > > > the town full of bitterness, anger and hopelessness. > > > > > > There obviously are no two ways about the fact that the ghastly murder > and > > > rape should invite severest possible criticism with a strong call for > > > finding the perpetrators of this heinous crime and punishing them in a > > > manner as to make an example of them. But here we are. The young prince > > > dismissed their rape and killing as a simple case of drowning. As a > Chief > > > Minister of the State shouldn’t he have been a little more prudent than > this > > > clownish dad. He should have at-least bothered to know the depth of the > > > water in Rembyaer Nallah in this season. As someone who has crossed > this > > > Nallah even without his knees getting wet I must say that the Chief > Minister > > > was at his apathetic and ignorant best. Little did he realise that a > man as > > > perverse as Yasin Malik or Bitta Karate is roaming free to commit more > > > crimes. > > > > > > The day the badly bruised bodies of Nilofer and Asiya were recovered, > they > > > bore marks of what seemed like molestation if not rape. Their clothes > were > > > torn and bodies disfigured. Yet the Police dismissed it as a case of > > > drowning. Forensic reports now confirm the rape of a pregnant Nilofer > and a > > > studious and intelligent Asiya. > > > > > > *Two grown up women drowning in knee deep water! > > > * > > > This led to huge protests all over the valley. A simple word of > acceptance > > > of the crimecould have avoided all that happened later. The separatists > were > > > quick to latch on some food. After all the Young Prince had given them > a > > > stick to beat with which they could beat him, the army, the > establishment > > > and India. The beastly Mehbooba wasn’t the one to be left behind. > Despite > > > the fact that her party-men were beaten on way to Shopian, she looked > at it > > > as opportunity she was in no mood to let go off. The sexually > frustrated > > > Asiya Andrabi too took to streets with her band of Dark Scary Images. > *The > > > calls for justice soon got lost in the din of cries for Azadi and > removal > > > for AFSPA. > > > * > > > This obviously is no time for politicking. Unequivocally we condemn the > > > State governments handling of this entire episode. What was ideally a > law an > > > order problem has now spun into a huge controversy thanks to the kid > who our > > > National Media projects as the best thing to have happened to India > after > > > the birth of Mahatma Gandhi. Apart from firing the SP of Shopian(who > > > obviously deserves to be fired) the Chief Minister should also have > resigned > > > for the way he led Kashmir to one more crisis. > > > > > > *Nilofer’s husband, Shakeel Ahmed has said time and again that he wants > > > justice and not Azadi. Unfortunately what he gets is denials and more > > > denials and now an enquiry commission. The State ought to show its > concern > > > for its people irrespective of their political alignments. But then > that > > > virtue is lost long time back.* > > > > > > *In this hour of grief we are with the family of the victims. May God > give > > > them power to overcome this grief .We at Roots in Kashmir will do our > best > > > to ensure that the family gets justice. Although we are in exile,yet we > > > mourn alongside the family of the victims. > > > > > > The need of the hour is that the Chief Minister personally meets the > family > > > and apologises for his errant comments and asks the commission to > submit a > > > report in a time bound manner and then act fast to punish the culprits > of > > > this sick crime. It may not bring them their dear ones back but > at-least it > > > would restore the confidence of the people in the State. > > > * > > > > > > > > > *pls do leave your comments here - > > > > http://kashmiris-in-exile.blogspot.com/2009/06/justice-for-nilofer-and-asiya.html > > > * > > > > > > > > > *thanks* > > > > > > *Aditya Raj Kaul* > > > _________________________________________ > > > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > > > Critiques & Collaborations > > > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > subscribe in the subject header. > > > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > > > List archive: > > > > > > > > > > > > _________________________________________ > > > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > > > Critiques & Collaborations > > > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > subscribe in the subject header. > > > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > > > List archive: > > > > > > > > -- > > > > http://indersalim.livejournal.com > > _________________________________________ > > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > > Critiques & Collaborations > > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > subscribe in the subject header. > > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > > List archive: > > _________________________________________________________________ > Live Search extreme As India feels the heat of poll season, get all the > info you need on the MSN News Aggregator > http://news.in.msn.com/National/indiaelections2009/aggregator/default.aspx > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > subscribe in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: > -- Rashneek Kher http://www.kashmiris-in-exile.blogspot.com http://www.nietzschereborn.blogspot.com From rashneek at gmail.com Mon Jun 15 09:03:55 2009 From: rashneek at gmail.com (rashneek kher) Date: Mon, 15 Jun 2009 09:03:55 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Obituary-Dr.Jagat Mohini Thusu Message-ID: <13df7c120906142033v78a6384kc9074d6398aea2f0@mail.gmail.com> COURTESY:KP-NETWORK *Dr. Jagat Mohini Thussu, a true rattan of Rattan Rani hospital and Kashmir* *by Dr. Navin Atal and Neera Goyal * We lost a great soldier of Kashmir valley, a woman who towered like a giant in the valley for the last seventy years of Kashmir history. The noble lady left us on the early morning of 14th June 2009 at the age of about eighty eight years, after bravely battling her ailments for more than a year. She sought the love of her fellow people till the very end, the fellow Kashmiri people, whom she once served with all her passion. Dr. Jagat Mohini, who had her roots in Punjab , did her M.B.B.S from King Edward Medical College , Lahore . She came to Kashmir in 1945 as a young bride and a young lady doctor, in a culture different from hers. She settled down quickly and adopted the Kashmiri culture to become an integral part of it. Since then she dedicated her entire life to the service of the people of Kashmir valley. She and her husband, late Dr. Onkar Nath Thussu, a renowned Pathologist, started the Rattan Rani Hospital at Barbarshah, Srinagar , named in memory of Dr. Onkar Nath’s late first wife. It was the very first hospital of Kashmir based on modern treatment and is now a century old heritage site. Dr. Jagat Mohini’s battle for upliftment of the society was fought for the last seventy years or so from Rattan Rani Hospital with her field of operation being the Kashmir valley. Dr. Jagat Mohini worked selflessly for people of Kashmir at a time when there were very few doctors and hardly any specialist. She treated all types of patients and battled all diseases deftly, but the most important contribution to the society has been the upliftment of women of Kashmir valley. She was a champion of fighting issues of women, like discrimination, violence, dowry, health issues of women etc. She was widely known for her generosity and charity. She not only treated them medically, but also put a healing touch to their socioeconomic ailments also. She became a champion to the cause of women of the valley. She worked day and night her entire life, sleeping just four hours in a day, totally dedicated to her profession. She saved, treated and cured countless patients. As time passed, people looked up to her, as a mentor, guardian and a saviour. She earned the nickname, “Mummy” from her staff and all her patients. She was literally a mother to all as she brought endless many to this world as a gynecologist. She is truly the “Florence Nightingale” of Kashmir , or the “Mother Teresa” of the valley. The national newspaper “The Hindustan Times” wrote on its front page an article of her achievements and it was titled as “the supermom of Kashmir ”. Her work was also recognized and complimented by many other national papers. She worked as a social reformer and a philanthropist, doing a lot of charity work without looking for any reward. She was a social worker who fought all evils of society and became a source of inspiration to many. She was instrumental in providing employment to many people, both directly in the hospital, as well as by opening vocational centres of training in occupations like stitching, sewing and knitting, including Pashmina shawls making. A multi-talented women, she used her knowledge of stitching, sewing, and knitting to open centers to train women from the weaker sections of society so that they could live a life of dignity. The vocational training camps and centers started and run by her provided a source of livelihood to countless women in Kashmir . She was successfully running a Nursing school which enrolled many students from many parts of the country and again provided a source of livelihood to women of the state and other parts of the country. A bold upright woman, she stood for justice and never wavered inspite of all odds. Whenever and wherever a person needed help, she was there for them. She opened a school, “Viswa Bharati” which from a two room set up became a college, later having a branch in NOIDA near Delhi . She had the foresight to acquire land for the school at NOIDA and then converted it into a successful school. She organized and conducted health camps in and around the city for the benefit of poor and needy people of the state. She was a brave and fearless soul, who never deserted the people of the valley in all times. She stood tall and courageously faced both the good and bad times of the valley. A simple and good human being, she never faltered to help a fellow Kashmiri. Dr.Jagat Mohini has given her entire life to Kashmir . Now it is for the people of Kashmir to see how they can repay a small part of good she has done to the valley. It is time to repay her debt by carrying on her legacy for the betterment of the valley. Mrs. Thussu was predeceased by her husband, Dr. Onkar Nath Thussu, daughter, Seema Thussu, and brothers Anand Kumar Atal and Dr. Pushkar Rattan Atal, brother in law Janki Nath Kaul, and nephew Vimal, brother in laws and sister in laws Hriday Nath and Prabha Thussu, Pushkar Nath and Kamla Thussu, Kameshwar Nath Thussu, Raj Dulari Thussu, Prithvi Nath Coraji, and Radhakishen and Uma Raina. Her survivors include her son Ashok and daughter in law Promila, granddaughters Vidisha and Nisha and their families, sister Manmohini Kaul, brother Dr. Chand Kumar Atal and sister in law Saroj, brother Jagdish Ratna Atal and sister in law Sheila, and sister in laws Rekha Atal and Indira Atal, brother in laws Rajinder Nath Thussu and Janki Nath Chaku, and sister in laws Kaushalya Chaku and Lalita Thussu, and the extended families. She is also survived by the following nephews and nieces, and their families on the Atal side: Gitanjali, Urvashi, Manjula, Neelima, Neera, Navin, Anuradha, Ritu, Nidhi, and Subodh and the family of Vimal, and those on Dr. Onkar Nath Thussu’s side, with extended families: Sheela, Surender, Kuldeep, Priti, Iqbal, Usha, Kanwar, Kamlesh, Sudhir, Rita, Nancy, Satish, Shami, Bittie, Girija, Nirmala and Suresh. -- Rashneek Kher http://www.kashmiris-in-exile.blogspot.com http://www.nietzschereborn.blogspot.com From pawan.durani at gmail.com Mon Jun 15 10:45:23 2009 From: pawan.durani at gmail.com (Pawan Durani) Date: Mon, 15 Jun 2009 10:45:23 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Massacres - contd. Message-ID: <6b79f1a70906142215i7ffb90f8j7b3a4a27196865c1@mail.gmail.com> 1          Pattern of Civilian killings in terrorist  violence KS Correspondent 2003 Last  three months have witnessed sharp escalation in terrorism violence. On June 28, the terrorists attacked Sunjawan army camp, located on the outskirts of Jammu city. There were fourteen casualties. Three weeks later the terrorists launched an assault on Tanda Headquarters, which attracted lot of publicity. Among others one Brigadier was killed and a senior General was injured. On September 6, a car bomb blast took place at Parimpora fruit mandi. Apparently, it was intended to hit a passing army convoy. The terrorists also sought to win psychological advantage by assassinating three top count er-insurgents. These people had played a significant role in anti-terrorist campaign. In the first fortnighyt of September, 181 incidents of terrorist violence included three ‘’fidayeen attacks and 15 IED blasts. There were 191 attempts at infiltration. During this period 51 civilians were gunned down by teh terrorists. The casualties among the securiy forces and the terrorists were 30 and 90 respectively. The casualties among security forces, terrorists and the civilians in the month of July were 28, 126 and 74 respectively. The figures for August were 41,135 and 76. In the period Ist July to 15 September the number of security forces personnel killed was 99, whereas the caualties among the terrorists were 351. The civilians touched a high figure of 201. It indicates tha on an average 2.5 to 3 civilians are killed daily by the terrorists. Civilian casualties fall in three categories. Some people, who have been the victims of terrorists, excesses are collaborating with security forces to aid them in putting an end to the terrorist menace. The terrorists have been dealing with this section by inflicting gory brutalities before killing them. In many cases when terrorists have been either killed or arrested, they have targetted those civilians with they last sought shelter or sought some other help. The third category of civilian victims are people who refuse to comply with the terrorist diktat for shelter, food, sending children to joine terrorist ranks or aiding terrorists in other logistics. Pattern of Violence : The present paper focusses on the terrorist violence against civilians in the period which witnessed heightened terrorist violence i.e. August and September (9 August to October 2, 2003) Anantnag : In the Kashmir valley, Anantnag district was the worst-affected, followed by Kupwara and Pulwama. At Damahal Khushipora terrorist entered the house of head of local Auqaf, Abdul Ahad Wani and shot him dead inside his house. He was an old Congress activist and a retired forester. Abdul Lateef Bimla was shot dead while he was opening his shop and labelled as informer. He belonged to Ahlan Payeen in Kokernag. Bashir Ahmed Magrey, resident of Peth Sheikhpora, Achabal was kidnapped. His dead body was recovered from Gowas forest. 26 year old Abdul Rashid Chouhan of Bon Ahlan, Kolernag was kidnapped from his house and labelled as informer. His dead body was recovered next day from Paji Behak. Another Gujjar Mohd. Sakhi Kataria of Damhal Hanjipora was brutally slaughtered after benig kidnapped at Khou Batapora, Kulgam. His dead body was recovered frmo a deserted spot. At Okay in Kulgam Niyaz Ahmed Mir, resident of Chehlan was kidnapped and killed. Jang Bahaur Singh, a resident of Kreeri was kidnapped. His dead body was recovered from Kokernag. A dead body, which bore marks of slaughtering with a knife was recovered from Sehipora on 16th September. It was identified as Nazir Ahmed Rather, a poor school teacher of Pariwan, Kulgam. A few days earlier three terrorists had taken motorbike of his son far a drive towards Kulgam-BSF naka party had intercepted it. The terrorists jumped down and tried to escape. BSF fired at them and one terrorist was killed. The two terrorists who escaped took Nazir for an informer and killed him after kidnapping. The terrorists do not spare even school boys and young ladies. A 10th standard student Abdul Hameed Malik was kidnapped from his house at Batkot and shot at Mehajbeen, a 20-year-old lady was fired at in her house. Two people were shot at Aishmuqam and Batkoot. During this period there were 48 incidents of terrorist violence in district Anantnag. “Imposition of POTA” : Another form of reprisals the terrorists indulge in against the civilians is “attaching” their properties, Kulgam an area which was sanitised previously came under terrorists’ control after some top counter-insurgents were killed recently on the evening of 30th September, a group of heavily armed terrorists appeared at Gudar, Kulgam. They dislodged members of eight families, two of which members employed in state police. The terrorists levelled allegations that the members of these families had been informing their presence and movement to security forces. They got the houses vacated and put locks on all the eight houses and threatened reprisals in case anybody dared to pen the locks. In August this year the terrorists had lifted the telephone sets from 20 houses at Kaimoh and rendered the local telephone exchange dysfunctional. They had labelled the residents of these houses as informers of th security forces. Durnig assembly elections also the terrorists had attached houses of two NC activists at Devsar and Pahloo. The terrorists publicly describe this attachment of property as “imposition of POTA”. Pulwama : In district Pulwama there were 36 incidents of terrorist violence. The civilians were targetted in eight incidents. A person was kidnappede in Shopian area. His dead body was recovered frmo Asthanpora-Wahipora in Wachi. Riyaz Ahmed Wani of Harmain was kidnapped. Same evening his dead body was recovered from Sangram Tularam in same locality. Bashir Ahmed Lone of Drubgam, Pulwama was shot dead at his house. At Kathuhalan forest area Gama Poswal, a Bakerwal was kidnapped. A radio-mechanic Maznoor Ahmed Sheikh was kidnapped at Muran and shot dead at Dreeri. Gh. Nabi alias Dilshat, a school teacher was kidnapped from Sheikh Harh, Pulwama. He was detained at a house. Gh. Nabi jumped from window and managed to escape. On 20th August at Traal, an eighty-five year old Gujar Alam Din was kidnapped from his house. He was tortured and his throat was slit open. Previous fortnight also the terrorist had attacked his house and torched it. They alleged that he and his sons were acting as informers. One of his sons escapped with gun shot wounds in the attack. At Reka Kapran, Shopian Gaffar Bhat was shot dead on September 27. North Kashmir : In the two districts of north Kashmir there were eighty incidents of terrorist violence. Twenty civilians were gunned down by the terrorists. In Kupwara there was selective targetting of women. On August 11, terrorists barged into house of Ghulam Hassan Magrey at Kandi and shot dead his 47 year old wife Zooni. She was labelled as informer of security forces. Shamima, a resident of Badalpora, Rajawar was kidnapped, while she was on way to join duty at Anganwari centre. She was tortured. Next day her body was recovered. Sheeba, wife of Abdul Aziz Mir was shot dead at Sarmarg, Handwara, Rehana, widow of Bashir Ahmed, Rishi was kidnapped frmo her house at Watakul-she was labelled as informer and shot dead. Terrorists are also indulging in brutalities before killing their victims. Abdul Ahad Naiko was hanged from a tree at Mughalpura, Gushi. At Chittibandi, Bandipore Abdul Rehman Mir was kidnapped from his house. He was dubbed informer and his throat was slit open. The usual modus operandi of the terrorists is to kidnap people and torture them before killing. There were such incidents at Kandi Khas, Rishigund, Bakhipora Rafiabad, Panar Bandipore, Chinkipora (Sopore). A domestic help Mushtaq Ahmed Deedarh, R/o Bandibala was kidnapped from the house of Lal Shah, his employer at Nambalyar. In other instances the terrorists barge into houses and shoot dead their targets. At Pazipora, Magam (Handwara), terrorists entered the house of Gh. Mohd. Peer alias Gul Peer. He used to run a small bakery. Terrorists dubbed him as an informer and gunned him down. At Chak Nutrioosa the terrorists, after gatecrashing into the house of Ghulam Ahmed Mir, opened indiscriminate firing on the inmatyes. Gh. Ahmed and his son Bashir died on spot. Shamba, daughter of the house owner received injuries. Khazir Mohd. an employee of Home Guards wing of J&K Police was shot dead at his home in Wudar Bala in Rajwar belt. In Kreeri Bazar, Patan, Manzoor Ahmed Zargar was shot at in his shop. Srinagar : There were thirty incidents of terrorists violence in Srinagar district but just four incidents of violence against civilians. The two killings in these incidents occurred in the rural segment—Gutlibag and Sumbal (Kangan). In the city a youth was shot dead at Zainakadal. Ghulam Jeelani Qadri, a PWD contractor was kidnapped from his Buchpora residence. In the afternoon his dead body was recovered frmo Bagh-e-Ali Mardan area. Budgam : Budgam district remained relatively tranquil during this period. There were just six incidents of terrorist violence. Two civilians were killed by terrorists at Ranipora and Malapora (Chrar). Besides these former constable was shot dead at Aripanthan, Beerwah and an ex-militant was gunned down at Dasan in Beerwah. Jammu Province : In the Jammu province the border districts of Poonch and Rajouri were worse-affected by the terrorist violence. These two districts top in terms of terrorist violence, the entire state. It has been seen that the number of civilians killed also increase proportionately as the graph of terrorist violence goes up. In terms of brutalities also the non-combant population has suffered terribly in these two districts. Rahni Begum of Surankote was kidnapped and cyanide was infected into her on June 21. There have been sord killings also. One Feroz Din Gujar was killed by forcing him to drink poison.. In Thannamandi, Rajouri terrorists beheaded Mohammad Sabar residence of Bathian in the house of Bee Jan at More Gugli Bagh near Kakote. On August 25, three terrorists entered the house of Mohammad Akbar at village Katarmal, Manjakote and subjected him to interrogation. They started firing indiscriminately on the inmates of the house. Mohd. Akbar, his wife Hakim Bi and Zeenat Begum, their daughter-in-law died on spot. The killers were local terrorists, owning allegiance to Lashkar-e-Toiba. A group of terrorists dragged out Haji Bagh Hussain from his house in village Sam Samad, Rajouri. They asked him to accompany them. He was gunned down as he refused to comply. The deceased was posted as a teacher at Govt. School at Sam. He had been serving as a teacher in BSF for eight years. In 1985 he left BSF to join State government service. Same group of terrorists kidnapped Mohammad Shabir, a government teacher at Sam Samad. They took him to a nearby field and beheaded him. There was lot of local resentment against the killing of two teachers. On September 21, terrorist entered house of Wazir Mohammad at village Laa in Thannamandi and dragged him and his wife Razia Begu. The two were hanged to death. Wazir was hanged with a rope, whereas Razia was hanged with her own dupatta. The terrorists dubbed them as informers. In Thannamandi at village Saj two terrorists entered house of Mohammad Naseeb. He was not at home. The terrorists beat his wife and set the house on fire. Terrorists also killed civilians at Kandi (Rajouri) and Morha Handa, near Gambhir Muglan (Majakote). At village Kala Khas the terrorists beheaded Nazir Hussain. The terrorists were local militants of Hizbul Mujahideen. The terrorists kidnapped two civilians frmo village Morian, Manjakote, who was kidnapped at Palanger, Thannamandi. Riyaz Ahmed of Thanna Manga, Darha was rescued during an encounter in Dhoke forest. Ponch District : Surankote has borne the brunt of civilians killings in Poonch district. On September 4 two local terrorists entered the house of Gh. Ahmed alias Gamma at Sanglani. They first chopped off his legs and arms and then beheaded him. He was dubbed as an informer. At village Dandian near Bafliaz, three terrorist beheaded two young women-Mumtaz Begum (42), wife of Iqbal Khan and Farzana Kousar (25) wife of Sarwar Khan. There was lot of resentment among locals on these killings. On September 17, the terrorists entered the house of Mohammad Kareem at Dara Sangla and shot him dead. Another civilian was beheaded at upper Kalai. After beheading him, the terrorists ran away carrying his head with them. In a similar sequence Shabir Hussain was beheaded in his house at Seri Chowana in Mandi. The terrorists took away his head along with them. At village Taran Wali in Bafliaz, terrorists fired a volley of shots at Manzoor Hussain. While one terrorist subjected the victim to questioning, another terrorist opened firing. The victim died on spot. Three terrorists entered the house of Mohammad Azam at Morha Bachai. He was taken to a surrounding field and shot dead. On August 16, 4-5 terrorists entered the house of Rashid Hussain Shah at Maddana in Lassana. Sixty year old Rashid refused to accompany the terrorists. He was shot dead at point blank range. Same day terrorists set ablaze two houses in the village. House of Mohammad Shafi in village Soliyan, Marhot area was also set on fire. All the household goods and eight cattle perished in the fire. The incident took place on September 25. The terrorists struck again in the area and set on fire four houses of surrendered militants. The militants were still in custody. Local terrorists of Hizbul Mujahideen gunned down a youth Javed Ahmed at Marhot. His brother was injured in the firing. The two brothers were under threat and had migrated frmo Dodi to Marhot. There was a single incident of civilian killing in Mandi, at village Hattian in Seri Khwaja. At Chak Banola in Poonch, terrorists dragged out Mohammad Hussain from his house alongwith his son Nazir Ahmed and shot them dead. Mendhar : There were four civilian killings in Mendhar. Mohammad Riaz was shot at Thamlot in his house. On August 9, terrorists entered house of Mohammad Khursheed at Kasblari and opened indiscriminate firing at the inmates. Mohammad Khursheed 60 and his son Shamim Ahmed 31 died on spot. Shamim was an army jawan and had come home on leave. At Naka Majari, a group of terrorists entered house of Farooq Ahmed. They enquired about his brother Maroof Hussain, a police recruit. Unable to find him they shot at Maroof’s mother Zamrood Begum and beat up his sister Shamshad Aktoo with rifle butts. Mahore-Gool : During the period under review, there were thirty incidents of terrorists violence in Udhampur district. All the civilian killings, however, were confined to Mahore Gool belt. On September 1, three to four local terrorists belonging to Hizbul Mujahideen outfit barged into the house of Roshan Din at village Alla Kalla in Shikari (Mahore). He and his two sons, Nazir and Sher Mohammad were thrashed with rifle butts. The terrorists then opened indiscriminate fire on them, killing all he three on spot. Locals protested the over the killings and described victims as innocent. Terrorists shot dead Noor Jamal son of Sain Gujar in remote Milky Dhar. He was kidnapped and then killed in a forest area. Abdul Rashid, a VDC member was fired at Thuru, where he had taken brief halt. He later bled to death. Mohammad Qasim Lohar was killed in his house at village Hasot in Chasana, Mahore. On September 28 the terrorist struck in a big way at Sain’s family in Mahore. As, per official version, a lone terrorist wearing a police uniform ‘dhangri’ struck in the house of Sani and opened indiscriminate firing with an AK-47 rifle killing four members of the family and leaving another injured. Victim were identified as Munir Hussain, 25, a SPO Khadim Hussain, 24 and Mohammad Hussain, 32, all brothers and sons of Saina and two year old Saddam Hussain, son of Mohammad Hussain. Sarwar Hussain, 7, son of Sain was seriously injured. The terrorists, believed to be a local remained untraced. Sain’s family had been under terrorists’ threat for quite some time. Due to these threats all four sons of Sain had shifted from their native village of Ganjakote  to Mahore town, while Sain and other female members of the family continued to stay put at Ganjakote. The sons of Sain had taken a room on rent near Bust Stand Mahore. The house was identified by a local terrorist in police uniform. In May last, Sain’s son had tipped of security forces about two foreign mercenaries of Lashkar-e-Toiba. After this, they shad been put on terrorists’ threat list. In September at Gool, two terrorists entered the house of Mohammad Assadullah in school uniform and gunned him down. He was under threat of terrorists for sometime and had shifted to Gool frmo Deedha. Assadullah was known in the area for his social works and was quite friendly with the security forces. The killers were local terrorists of Hizbul Mujahideen. Assadullah was known in the area for his social works and was quite friendly with the security forces. The killers were local terrorists of Hizbul Mujahideen. As Assadullah was quite popular among locals, there was strong resentment over his killing. The terrorists also targetted VDCs members Pritam Chand and Lochan Snigh at Dalwah and Gool respectively. VDC members retaliated back and foiled the attempt. Numberdar Chattar Singh’s house was attacked at a village Chakali Salta in Reasi. Doda District : In sixty incidents of terrorist violence in Doda district, Gandoh and Banihal remained the prime targets for civilian killings. At village Chamalwas, 8 kms from Banihal in a brazen act of violence, a group of terrorists struck on September Ist at the residence of a well-educated family. At 10 PM a Kashmiri speaking terrorist entered in the house of Mohammad Rafiq Sohail. He went to the kitchen where the family had had gathered for pre-marriage celebrations. Both daughter and sister of Khadim Hussain were scheduled to get married on September 3. Khadim was the lone elected Sarpanch of Chamalwas and former State Secretary, Minorities Cell of BJP. The terrorists took Khadim out and engaged him in conversation. In the process few more terrorists, which included a foreign terrorist reached the spot and opened firing. Rafiq Sohail, alineman in PDD sensed troubled. With the help of his son he overpowered the militant and snatched his rifle. Rafiq, however, could not operate the weapon. Meanwhile on hearing cries of the militant, other terrorists entered inside and opened indiscriminate firing. Rafiq’s other son Irfan, 14, also grappled with another terrorist and snatched his rifle. A terrorist fired at his abdomen and left him injured. He later bled to death. Farid, brother of Khadim made another attempt to pounce upon the militants. He got killed in the shoot-out. Khadim died because of fright. Fastima Begum, wife of Munir Ahmed, Numbedar of Chamalwas and slapped a terrorist. She too was gunned down. In this massacre four bereaved families were left with 14 orphaned children. In an unprecedented departure frmo the past, the entire clergy of Banihal and Ramban declared these brutal killings were purely an act of terror and not Jehad. One of the terrorists involved in the carnage was identified as a resident of Sarbagawni and a relative of the bereaved family. Another terrorist was identified as Hamid. A total of five terrorists were reportedly involved in the killings.. At Budhan, Ramban, Mohd. Arshad and Mohd. Ismail were kidnapped Arshad’s body was recovered from Badakund. Ismail was taken to adjoining forest area and shot dead. Body of Abdul Hamid, resident of Dallian Bajar, Gandoh was recovered after 3 days of kidnapping from a forest area terrorists shot dead Ghulam Hassan Mir, resident of Barthi at village Sui Baggar in Gandoh. In Sanie, Gandoh Ishfaq Ahmed was shot at and seriously injured. In the same area at Mhabryas terrorists fired at Abdul Rashid, a Horticulture employee and left him seriously injured. A fifty-five year old Fateh Mohd. was killed by two local militants of Hizbul Mujahideen at his house in village Fakwas Pushal, Gandoh. A VDC member Yog Raj was beheaded at village Huja in Gandoh. His other colleague Ghulam Mohd. was also kidnapped. Kishtwar: Two terrorists entered house of Bahoru Gujar at village Jugnu in Kishtwar and opened fire. His wife Aishia Begum died in the firing. In Keshwan village house of Usman was set ablaze. Bhaderwah : Hanraj, father of police constable Surjeet Singh was kidnapped from his house at Bumlakhi and tortured for two days. On 3rd morning his dead body was recovered. Bitu Kumar, son of Krishanlal, residence of Mathola was kidnapped from forest area Shafola on September 27. Centuries old Nag temple at Subhar Dhar was set on fire by the terrorists on August 12. Doda : Liaqat Ali of Sarsi, Doda was kidnapped. After remaining in captivity for 12 days, he escaped during night and trekked several kms to reach home. Kathua : Panch Devnider Khajuria was kidnapped frmo village Dhana. However, he managed to escape. In Malhar Hans Raj of Ramkot was kidnapped from village Rodla. The Prospect : Recently, the Army arrested one Mehooda, a resident of Bundgam in Budgam district. Besides recruiting women in terrorist ranks she, as per reports, had shot dead a number of terrorist targets in Beerwah-Baramulla belt. The rising graph of selective killings of those civilians who refuse to need the terrorist diktat or aid the security forces, during the past four months, have hampered the flow of actionable intelligence for counter-insurgency operations. There are complaints that the sources are drying up. Indian state has a moral responsibility also to take full care of this civilian segment of population, which is pivotal in turning the tide against the terrorists. There is a need to draw a policy to protect the informers and their families through innovative strategies. Bureaucratic red-tape often delays  ex-gratia compensa tion and compassionate recruitment to the victims’ families. This leads to alienation of a strongly-motivated section. A national fund should be created to take care of these victims’ families. Instead of pampering politicians, who indulge in doublespeak and rake bogey of security forces excesses, these patriotic people deserve a better deal. 2          Terrorists resort to ethnic-cleansing in Bani KS Correspondent JAMMU, June 11, 2003: The terrorists, have let loose a reign of terror in the hilly villages of Billawar and Bani tehsils. Last month, a special police officer and a woman were killed in two separate militancy-related incidents in Roulka village of Bani tehsil. In both the encounters, which followed, the terrorists managed to give slip to the security forces. In Malkar also, which comes in the jurisdiction of Billawar tehsil, the terrorists continued to strike off and on, resorting to killings, kidnappings and extortions. On June 8, in broad day light, a group of terrorists, whose number was stated to be between five to seven, descended to the village Sadrota from the upper reaches. At gun point, they kidnapped four civilians and took them to an isolated area. They were later shot dead. Next morning the police recovered their bodies from a forest area near Kamleo Gala village. The killed civilians have been identified as Sudesh Kumar (28), Hans Raj, both brothers and sons of Paras Ram. They belonged to village Raya Sayal. The other victims included Dhian Singh (40) S/o Jodh Singh and Prakash Singh (50), S/o Mast Ram, both residents of Morha Channa near Seri Galla, falling in village Sadrota. The terrorists escaped after the killings. Tension gripped Malhar and Billawar as soon as the report of civilians killings spread. People resorted to shouting of slogans against police, alleging inadequate security arrangements in the area that led to the killings. Authorities disclosed that two army companies would be deployed at Sarthal, one company each would be stationed at Taggar and Bani. People have been demanding 'seek and destroy' operations against terrorists in this area, for quite sometime. Meanwhile, a youth who was kidnapped by terrorists on the night of June 8, from a Dhok in the upper reaches of Punera in Basantgarh, Ram Nagar, was found murdered in forests on June 11. The victim, identified as 25-year old Rashpal Singh, son of Saneetu, had gone to the higher reaches to graze his goats. After kidnapping him, he was taken to some other dhok, where he was forced to cook their food and carry their belongings to other destinations for a few days. Efforts of Rashpal's family members to search him proved futile. It was only after Basantgarh police intercepted a message of the terrorists regarding killing of Rashpal, the police and the villagers traced to body from the forest. His neck had been slit by the terrorists and the semi-decomposed body witnessed marks of torture.  Source: Kashmir Sentinel From pawan.durani at gmail.com Mon Jun 15 11:01:02 2009 From: pawan.durani at gmail.com (Pawan Durani) Date: Mon, 15 Jun 2009 11:01:02 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Panun Kashmir--Logic and Relevance Message-ID: <6b79f1a70906142231g54efad7dhf195fc5b808a98c9@mail.gmail.com> Panun Kashmir--Logic and Relevance By Dr. Ajay Chrungoo Introduction : Panun Kashmir was born as a comprehensive response to the challenges faced by the  nation in Kashmir. An in-depth understanding of the reasons which lead to the forced displacement of Kashmiri Hindus formed the substratum of its political perspective. This understanding did not trivilise the religious cleansing of Kashmiri Hindus by considering it as a mere aberration in the local political expression. Panun Kashmir realised the linkage of the religious cleansing in Jammu and Kashmir to the civilisational and political challenges to the nation-building process in the state. The organisation has been acutely conscious of the grave implications of the process which sought to insulate the national discourse on secularism and human rights from the happenings in Kashmir. Panun Kashmir developed a firm opinion that the causes of displacement of Kashmiri Hindus underlined issues which were of fundamental importance to the nation. The efforts, particularly from within aimed at ensuring that the internal displacement of Kashmiri Hindus becomes a non-event constitutes one of the crucial elements of the subversive war to balkanise India and cripple the Nation state. Political Approach : While formulating its political approach Panun Kashmir took into account following realities : *Kashmir has contributed substantially to the fund of Indian civilization in almost all fields. Kashmiri Hindus pioneered the movement for Sanskritisation of Himalayas, which ultimately paved the way for the evolution and consolidation of Northern Frontier of India. Kashmiri Hindus therefore Constitute the Indian Civilisational Frontline in Kashmir. Religious cleansing of Kashmiri Hindus is one more concerted attempt to snap the civilisation link of Kashmir with India. Its wider implication is to prepare the platform for dismantling the Northern Frontier of India by destroying its cultural content. *Kashmiri Hindus also constituted the Political Frontline for the geopolitics  which aims to undermine Indian position in Kashmir. This social group acted as a symbol of Indian nationalism a vital component of the pluralistic identity of Kashmir and the powerful impetus for democratization of Kashmir polity. Kashmiri Hindus contested all the variants of Muslim communalism and separatism in the Valley. Their destabilisation was always visualised by the anti-Indian forces in Kashmir as a crucial step towards breaking down of the indigenous political resistance to the separatist politics. *Muslim separatism in Jammu and Kashmir has three genres which include demand for accession to Pakistan, carving out an Independent State of Jammu and Kashmir and seeking greater autonomy on the basis of Muslim subnationalism. Relevance : *The political demand of Panun Kashmir seeks to decisively change the paradigm of politics paractised by Kashmiris. This politics was primarily determined by the Muslim religious identity. It had same ideological connotations as that of Muslim League before partition of India. *The Panun Kashmir demand links the return of Kashmiri Hindus to the free flow of Indian Constitution. By seeking such a dispensation Panun Kashmir declares the compatibility of Kashmiri identity with the constitutional process governing India. It also proclaims that the communal separatism in Kashmir is an inherent consequence of the constitutional fortification of Muslim identity rather than erosion of the constitutional right. The demand brings to fore the historical and secular imperatives confronting the Kashmir identity. Panun Kashmir as Corrective : *Panun Kashmir seeks to act as a decisive corrective so far as the National discourse on Human Rights and secularism is concerned. *The discourse on Human Rights at the national level has been primarily driven by a subversive drive to undermine and cripple the state responses to the challenges confronting national integrity and sovereignty. This discourse has selectively focussed on state action in a situation where terrorism has established sway on the social milieu. It has sought to insulate the individual and the organs of the Kashmiri society from the responsibility of upholding human rights. By implication it has provided space and immunity to the terrorist operatives. *Panun Kashmir through its campaign has sought to focus attention on the individual and group responsibility in upholding the Human Rights. Panun Kashmir has stressed the role of state action rather than inaction in fighting terrorism. It has tried to widen the moral space for the actions of a democratically-elected government to curb terrorist violence. Panun Kashmir has sought to delegitimise terrorism in all forms and with all justifications. *Through its campaigns of focussing national and international attention on religious cleansing and terrorism Panun Kashmir has stripped off the terrorist movement in Kashmir of its pretensions of being a freedom struggle. Secular discourse in the country particularly vis-a-vis Kashmir has suffered from a serious drawback. It recognises any accession of Jammu and Kashmir to India as the only yardstick which should determine judgement on the secular behaviour of the polity in the state. The communal content of the local politics has always been ignored or rationalised. This attitude helped in strengthening the Muslim communal stridency in the state. It has also accorded respectability to Muslim subnationalism in the state. Over the years the Muslim subnationalism in Jammu and Kashmir and the fissiparous tendencies in many parts of India have developed a symbiotic relationship. Dilution of Indian sovereignty in Kashmir is being visualised as a decisive in put to redefine principles of Indian federalism along divisive subnational denominators for its eventual balkanisation. *Panun Kashmir demand essentially brings to surface this contradiction of the secular discourse. It exposes the linkages of Muslim separatism in the state with the separatist tendencies elsewhere in the country. It seeks to sensitise the nation to the dangers of flirting with religious subnationalism. Last but not the least, Panun Kashmir deals a decisive blow to the Dixon proposal or its variants. These seek the solution for the crisis in Jammu and Kashmir by advocating division of the state along the flow of Chenab river which roughly divides the state into Hindu and Muslim areas. The demand for rehabilitating 700,000 Kashmiri Hindus north and east of river Jhelum in Kashmir valley brings a new perspective into play. It shifts the emphasis from communal division of state to the fractured political cravings of the Kashmiri population. Panun Kashmir demand renders separatist politics full of stakes for the future. *The author is a founder member of Panun Kashmir. Source: Kashmir Sentinel From peter.ksmtf at gmail.com Mon Jun 15 11:01:10 2009 From: peter.ksmtf at gmail.com (T Peter) Date: Mon, 15 Jun 2009 11:01:10 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Concern over CZM policy Message-ID: <3457ce860906142231x5703f82vd54017d42e65f2fe@mail.gmail.com> *Concern over CZM policy * Date:15/06/2009 URL: http://www.thehindu.com/2009/06/15/stories/2009061550700200.htm ** Special Correspondent Thiruvananthapuram: The Kerala Swathantra Matsya Thozhilali Federation (KSMTF) has expressed concern over the move by the Central government to issue notification on the Coastal Zone Management (CZM) policy. State president of the federation T. Peter said that coastal communities in the country were gearing up for an agitation against the government to protest the move to replace the Coastal Regulation Zone Act with the controversial notification. Mr. Peter challenged the Centre to place the CZM policy before the Parliament. Objections raised “The governments of Kerala, Tamil Nadu, Goa and Maharashtra have raised their objection to the CZM policy. The parliamentary standing committee has also called on the government to refrain from implementing it. Yet, the United Progressive Alliance (UPA) government is proceeding with the notification. This is an open challenge to the fishing community," Mr. Peter said. Mr. Peter alleged that the government was surrendering to the interests of the tourism, industry and sand-mining lobbies. He feared that the setback line specified in the notification would deprive the fisherfolk of their livelihood. Mr. Peter urged mainstream political parties to clarify their stand on the issue. Nationwide agitation The executive committee of the National Fishworkers Forum meeting at Kolkata on June 19 and 20 will finalise a nationwide agitation against the CZM policy. From ramganeshk at gmail.com Mon Jun 15 11:01:19 2009 From: ramganeshk at gmail.com (Ram Ganesh Kamatham) Date: Mon, 15 Jun 2009 11:01:19 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] an invitation to Project S.T.R.I.P. Message-ID: Dear All Just wanted to invite you to a play that might be of interest to some of you. A couple of months ago, Q Theatre Productions in Mumbai contacted me and asked me to write a play for the group. Quasar Thakore Padamsee who had recently been on tour with a play in Australia was keen on exploring the plight of indigenous peoples. I had recently been skipping around the rural interiors of India near Tonk in Rajasthan, Sagar near Bhopal and Warangal in A.P. and was beginning to drag my own intellectual baggage - something on the lines of "interrogating notions of development/progress." We jumped into a laboratory process of play-making with a bunch of actors and I'd like to invite you to the result. The play is titled Project S.T.R.I.P. - a comedy of development - and tells the story of the 'discovery' of an indigenous people on a fictitious island in the Bay of Bengal and the resulting mayhem, given the fact that the play is a satire. The questions I grappled with in the play, were mostly driven by a line penned by P. Sainath, "Too often, poverty and deprivation get covered as events." The paradigm shift suggested, is to view deprivation in terms of processes. I've been a steadfast lurker for quite a while and must credit the list for throwing up a fairly diverse range of inputs and perspectives for me to mull over. I thought it only fair to extend this invitation to you all. Warm regards Ram Project S.T.R.I.P. - a comedy of development @ Prithvi Theatre: 16th - 21st June 2009 @ Sathaye College : 27 - 28 June 2009 @ NCPA Experimental : 1 - 5 July 2009 Tickets: 26149546/39895050/www.bookmyshow.com (We are unlikely to be able to travel with the play, so this is a limited run of 17 shows in Mumbai.) For more details: http://addledbraindump.blogspot.com/2009/06/project-strip.html http://qtpthescript.blogspot.com/2009/06/project-strip.html http://www.facebook.com/home.php?ref=home#/event.php?eid=123462244568&ref=nf From shahzulf at yahoo.com Mon Jun 15 14:38:19 2009 From: shahzulf at yahoo.com (Zulfiqar Shah) Date: Mon, 15 Jun 2009 02:08:19 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Reader-list] Protest against Killing of Political Workers Message-ID: <886161.71310.qm@web38805.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Protest against Killing of Political Workers By our correspondent HYDERABAD: The Joint Action Committee for Peoples Rights staged a demonstration against the killing of political activists in Karachi and Jamshoro. Representatives of civil society organisations, besides political and nationalist parties, joined the protest outside the Hyderabad Press Club.   Zulfikar Shah, Kashif Bajeer, Punhal Sariyo, Akash Mallah of the JSQM, Muzaffar Kalhoro of the STPP, Ayub Shar of the SNF and Hashim Khoso of the JSM spoke on the occasion. They blamed the police as well as the Rangers for the killing of STPP workers during a rally in Karachi and SUP workers during a sit-in on National Highway near Sunn. They demanded of the chief justice of Pakistan to take suo moto notice of the incident.   Courtesy: The News, Karachi New Email addresses available on Yahoo! Get the Email name you've always wanted on the new @ymail and @rocketmail. Hurry before someone else does! http://mail.promotions.yahoo.com/newdomains/aa/ From 2tahamehmood at googlemail.com Mon Jun 15 17:09:07 2009 From: 2tahamehmood at googlemail.com (Taha Mehmood) Date: Mon, 15 Jun 2009 12:39:07 +0100 Subject: [Reader-list] News Items posted on the net on Multipurpose National Identity Cards-128 Message-ID: <65be9bf40906150439j45ac7174m128ddac941f42361@mail.gmail.com> http://www.zeenews.com/news539141.html Centre to launch survey in Orissa coastal villages Kendrapara (Orissa), June 14: In a bid to thwart infiltration and threat from the sea route, the Centre will launch a comprehensive survey and issue multi-purpose identity cards to settlers in 97 coastal villagers of Orissa's Kendrapara district. The step is being taken after 26/11 and the exercise would be launched next month. It is likely to be completed in January next year, official sources said. The coastal security project is being jointly implemented by the census directorate and the union home department, the sources said. The survey, which will encompass 55 villages of Rajanagar tehsil and 41 villages of Mahakalpada tehsil, will be done in accordance with the strict guidelines of the Centre. All the people in the coastal areas, including those who are not residing on a permanent basis, foreigners and those from outside, will be included in the survey and around three lakh people will be issued the multipurpose identity card. A lone village under Rajkanika tehsil will be covered under the multi-purpose identity card project, R K Das, sub-collector of Kendrapara said. Rajanagar and Mahakalapada tehsils are widely regarded as the epicenter of unlawful settlement of Bangladeshis, the sources said adding as per official estimates 1677 infiltrators are present in these areas. Unofficial figures are a much higher 50,000. Among the officially enumerated foreign nationals, 1551 Bangladeshis had been given quit India notice on January 15, 2005. But the deportation notice was put on hold following allegations of erroneous enumeration. Das said enumerators would gather wide-ranging details of settlers of the coastal villages and the information sheet will contain among other things the genealogical order of the families, their nativity status and finger prints of those above the age 15 years. It could be used as a multi-purpose identity card instead of the existing voter identity card. It would be distributed among the concerned villagers, including those below 18 years of age. ''As the project is of national importance, we are laying emphasis on its timely completion. The enumerators would be trained,'' he added. Bureau Report From 2tahamehmood at googlemail.com Mon Jun 15 17:13:24 2009 From: 2tahamehmood at googlemail.com (Taha Mehmood) Date: Mon, 15 Jun 2009 12:43:24 +0100 Subject: [Reader-list] News Items posted on the net on Multipurpose National Identity Cards-129 Message-ID: <65be9bf40906150443h66a04866x6f5cfa27cdb306c5@mail.gmail.com> http://week.manoramaonline.com/cgi-bin/MMOnline.dll/portal/ep/theWeekContent.do?sectionName=Current+Events&contentId=5590448&programId=1073754900&pageTypeId=1073754893&contentType=EDITORIAL Movers & shakers - Chidambaram is at 'home' tackling terror. THE WEEK profiles the key ministers BY VIJAYA PUSHKARNA, SONI MISHRA, KALLOL BHATTACHERJEE, NEHA S. BAJPAI, GUNJAN SHARMA, MONIKA SHINGHAL, RABI BANERJEE AND KUMAR ANSHUMAN P. Chidambaram: Home affairs When home ministry officials see P. Chidambaram, they grit their teeth. Possibly, they are calling the home minister hardnosed, unforgiving and rigid. But they know he means business. Chidambaram has asked them to submit a report on the tasks assigned, at the end of every month. The 64-year-old Harvard-educated lawyer has demanded punctuality in his ministry, saying, "We can't relax. We have our job to do." He has set two goals to tackle terrorism-to raise the level of preparedness and to respond quickly to any threat from anywhere. He aims to implement a 100-day plan to strengthen internal security. The focus is on operationalising the NSG regional hubs in Mumbai, Kolkata, Hyderabad and Chennai. Introducing multipurpose national identification cards in coastal areas is also his priority. Ministry spokesman Onkar Kedia said the new strategy was to improve intelligence gathering. "If we have the real intelligence, we can prevent and prepare ourselves to thwart any threat. We are recruiting more than one lakh police and paramilitary personnel to strengthen security," he said. In the Northeast, Chidambaram is tightening the grip on insurgent groups. Ministry officials said the policy towards Naxalites was lenient during Shivraj Patil's tenure. "Now it is going to be tough," said an official. Chidambaram proved himself a man of action after taking over as home minister in the wake of the 26/11 attacks. He spelt out strategies that many people, even in the opposition parties, said were in the right direction-like the setting up of a Multi-Agency Centre for improving coordination between the intelligence agencies. But will he be able to end the turf wars between the various intelligence agencies? Another task will be the modernisation of the police force, as crores of rupees given to states for upgradation of the police force remain unspent. His strength is that he is efficient and a quick decision maker. And he has put together a good team. That puts him quite at home. From kshmendra2005 at yahoo.com Mon Jun 15 19:39:50 2009 From: kshmendra2005 at yahoo.com (Kshmendra Kaul) Date: Mon, 15 Jun 2009 07:09:50 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Reader-list] 'Men in uniform are Kashmir's problem, not solution' Message-ID: <956488.45190.qm@web57207.mail.re3.yahoo.com> Dear Inder   Something has been troubling me about your pics from http://indersalim.livejournal.com/37697.html . I thought it best to ask you.   You have titled the panel " A short story in four images from Kashmir" and found in your "story" echoes of the Shopian Rapes.   1. You are suggesting that the Army Men (security guys) were responsible for the Shopian Rapes. I thought guilt had to be established by evidence. Or, are there varying ethical standards for different situations?   2. Pardon my asking this about your "story board". Where in Kashmir is this? The one you call a 'local' does not appear to be a Kashmiri. The "girls" do not appear to be "Kashmiri" girls. Would appreciate your feedback   Kshmendra --- On Sun, 6/14/09, Inder Salim wrote: From: Inder Salim Subject: Re: [Reader-list] 'Men in uniform are Kashmir's problem, not solution' To: "reader-list" Date: Sunday, June 14, 2009, 4:27 PM thanks  for forward Mr . kapoor ... with army jawans it is a must to teach the enemy a lesson. the lessons are usually carried out by SPECAAL OPERATION GROUPS who are beyond the purview of Law or a simple enquiry. So needless of say that why we have witnessed a large scale disaappearances of Men in Kashmir, eliminated without trail often. A  HoD of Kashmir University , a close friend, was picked once by Army in Anantnag and released after three days, that too because he managed to arrange a meeting with a senior officer in Bahinal prison who accidentally hapened to listen to his request, and was  subsequenlty released. .Normally, it is the angry Jawan in uniform who controls the street or an area and decides on the spot about the the person in sight.  Rape is one such lesson. I was once myself caught by Army jawans in Srinagar, it was cufew time, and even after showing my I.card i was punished to perform Murga ( chicken ) and then made to run..  The 'run' word those days meant to shoot the runner from behind and label him as offender of curfew or a terrorist etc. The men in uniform are supposed to be orderly, a friend in kashmir told me once, while he agreed that militants usually come from weired backgrounds and can do many bad things,.But, unfortunately Army record in kahmir is very very poor in this regard, Few years back i happened to photograph two army jawans, a local man and two girls, I could not dare to go near, and photographed them from a distance. may click to see: http://indersalim.livejournal.com/37697.html Ir echoes what has happned in Shopian, recently,  alas. The Army should withdraw from towns and villages, without a second thought Kashmir issue has nothing to do with this unwanted  amry presence in each and every corner of  kashmir. love is On Sun, Jun 14, 2009 at 5:27 AM, Harsh Kapoor wrote: > > http://tinyurl.com/muga5v > > 'Men in uniform are Kashmir's problem, not solution' > > by Sanjay Kak > (The Times of India, 14 Jun 2009) > > Those who use the media filter to try to understand what is happening > in Kashmir should realize they're looking at a shadow play. A curtain > lies > between events and us. What is played out on the screen depends on who > manipulates the sources of light. > > Last summer, the Valley was overwhelmed by several months of > unprecedented non-violent public protest. It was triggered by the > complicated Amarnath land issue, but on the streets the people were > saying "Hum kya chahte? Azadi!" We are hearing this again this summer, > triggered by the rape and murder of two young women from Shopian in > south Kashmir. Only the stone deaf could miss the cry. > > Between these two summer uprisings came the Assembly elections of > December. As everyone braced for a boycott, people did turn out to > vote. This surprise turnout was presented as nothing short of a > miracle and we were informed that this was "a vote for Indian > democracy". Those who wondered why people who had braved bullets only > a month ago should suddenly queue up to vote were reminded that > Kashmiris were an unpredictable, even contrary, people. > > In fact, there is a frightening consistence about the Kashmiri chant > for decades: "Hum kya chahte? Azadi!" Protests have begun for all > sorts of reasons but they are a manifestation of the simmering anger > always close to the surface. > > The current round of protests were given a head-start by the > distinctly amateur vacillations of the state chief minister, not least > his puzzling shifts on what may have actually happened to Nilofar, 22, > and her sister-in-law Asiya, 17, on the night of May 29. > Well-intentioned though he may be, Omar Abdullah seems very badly > advised, or else possessed of a political death-wish. > > In its election campaign the National Conference made a point of > underlining that it was seeking a mandate for development, for bijli, > sadak, pani. It made no claim to settling masla-e-Kashmir or the > Kashmir issue. But once the elections were over, they went along with > the Indian establishment, which trumpeted the turnout as a decisive > mandate in India's favour. The inability of Omar Abdullah's government > to reach out to the people of the Valley in the past fortnight is a > timely reminder of the dangers of that delusion. In just a little over > 10 days, the protests have damaged the patina of normalcy that the > election 'success' painted on a deeply troubled situation. > > In the middle of all this, but almost buried by events, the J&K police > announced the arrest of Constable Nazir Ahmed of the India Reserve > Police battalion for allegedly raping a minor girl in Baramulla in > north Kashmir. (They admitted the constable was a former Personal > Security Officer of Ghulam Hassan Mir, legislator and former > minister). Days after the incident, a scuffle between the families of > the victim and the policeman led to the tragic killing of the victim's > grandmother. > > Both incidents of the past fortnight must be placed next to one from a > few years ago, when the infamous "sex scandal" led to huge protests, > bringing Srinagar to a grinding halt. That was a tawdry tale of the > sexual exploitation of vulnerable women, including the prostitution of > minors. It was on a massive scale, with the involvement of politicians > , senior bureaucrats, police and paramilitary officers. The scandal > exposed the ugly networks of power and oppression, which prop up the > structures of control in Kashmir. It also laid bare the vulnerability > of women all over the Valley, prey to the brutal arrogance unleashed > by 20 years of intense militarization and unbridled power. > > It's a good time to remember that the acquisition of land for the > Amarnath yatra was only the spark that set off last summer's protests. > But the real fuel was widespread resentment about the fact that > thousands of acres of agricultural, orchard and forest land is under > occupation by the army and paramilitary forces, housing their feared > camps and cantonments and vast logistics bases. The Kashmiris' > behaviour then turns out to be underpinned by a fairly straightforward > political reason: we don't need to delve into their fragile 'psyche'. > > This week, the lights behind the curtain are being moved around to > give the illusion of change: the CRPF's duties are to be handed over > to the J&K police. If true, this will need massive local police > recruitment and give a disturbing new twist to the Indian government's > promise of employment to young Kashmiris. (However, from the > Establishment's point of view, a policeman in every home may well be a > solution to Kashmir's troubles.) > > But this change of guard will not alter the lives of ordinary people. > They do not care if the oppressive figure of the soldier wears the > uniform of the Indian Army, its paramilitary forces, or is their > neighbour in brand new fatigues. Such shallow transformation is not > new: people remember the 'disbanding' of the dreaded Special > Operations Group, which was simply merged into regular police > operations; or the highly public way in which the CRPF replaced the > BSF in Srinagar, leaving the countryside in the Army's iron grip. > > This summer's protest is not just about the rape and murder of two > women, the violation of human rights, or even the repeal of some > draconian law. The shadow play must not distract us from the real > issue, which is the extraordinary and intolerable militarization of > Kashmir. > > Sanjay Kak is a filmmaker whose most recent documentary > 'Jashn-e-Azadi' explores the conflict in Kashmir > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with subscribe in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> -- http://indersalim.livejournal.com _________________________________________ reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. Critiques & Collaborations To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with subscribe in the subject header. To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> From 2tahamehmood at googlemail.com Mon Jun 15 19:44:36 2009 From: 2tahamehmood at googlemail.com (Taha Mehmood) Date: Mon, 15 Jun 2009 15:14:36 +0100 Subject: [Reader-list] Gap Minder In-Reply-To: <34bf33330906140413x2e0e7cejf0f59ce949dedfc9@mail.gmail.com> References: <0ABE6237-A4F1-49CA-9C78-8BAEF0448E28@sarai.net> <65be9bf40906082146vf23e945m205b6c0fc95ba6e3@mail.gmail.com> <34bf33330906140413x2e0e7cejf0f59ce949dedfc9@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <65be9bf40906150714x63a52139u3a40a485e9880f13@mail.gmail.com> Dear Issac (and All ) It is nice to see some posts on emerging 'nice/pretty nice' ways of looking at data. In this regard, the overlap of aesthetics and epistemology is indeed interesting. Some preliminary questions came up while thinking about these issues, I have tried to list them as follows- for instance, I do not know how notions with respect to truth claims or validity of representation could be reasonably dealt with a certain amount of confidence while using quantitative data? This is a contested territory both epistemologically and aesthetically. Even in a decision making process which relies on quantitative data one wonders how questions related to ruling ideology of the day and its role in molding seemingly 'rational' decisions are addressed? For instance take the case of policies related to urban planning in the UK. For the last 60 years official statistical organizations have been churning numbers which suit the ideology of the day. Hence in the name of Reconstruction, Revitalization, Renewal, Redevelopment and Regeneration, the policy makers have been able to create a seemingly rational rhetoric to push their agendas. While in the hind sight many so called experts have successfully refuted the claims of such propositions and were able to generate a counter imagery using almost the same set of numbers. Do these visual representations by their very nature not tend to iron out various underlying variables which make up this data? Do all political process everywhere appeal to a so called 'rational' form of decision making process? How should one approach the question of 'rationality' in political decision making? Is there some universal system or process through which political discourse or policy decisions sprouting from such a discourse could be referred to and could one conclusively locate 'rationality' in such a process? Does questions related to data and its visualization or representation appeal to only political structures and leave no room for some times 'irrational' agency of operators, agents or actors? In this regard, Isaac, could you please articulate a bit more on your claim, that such data could be 'a boon to political discourse and rational decision making'. This claim might be true in some places but from a south asian perspective I think one would hesitate before advocating a blatant use of data to boost political discourse or to make 'rational decisions' :) For instance, on a broad level, in the last thirty years at least, in a country like India, we did not have a single instance of mass political mobilization by some political dispensation which was able to use some correlations based on 'nice/pretty nice' data or analysis and make a serious bid to power or emerge as a serious long term player. At the same time I think numbers are an essential tool for governance related issues, or to analyze the purported impact of a policy in this regard I do not think I would have pitched my tone to the tune of 'lies, counter lies...'. Having said that, I would be very interested if you could please share with us any instances where data or resultant correlationships were or are being used to aid either 'political discourse' or 'rational decision making' process. In this regard maybe you could also elaborate more on the overlaps of aesthetics and epistemology. It would be indeed very informative to know more about ways of looking and think about questions related to visual rhetoric and claims to valid forms of knowledge about society. I look forward to your reply. Warm regards Taha From kshmendra2005 at yahoo.com Mon Jun 15 20:01:35 2009 From: kshmendra2005 at yahoo.com (Kshmendra Kaul) Date: Mon, 15 Jun 2009 07:31:35 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Reader-list] Pasmanda Intellectuals' Forum Questions... Message-ID: <464310.92386.qm@web57201.mail.re3.yahoo.com> Dear Inder   Thank you for this mail.   Ignoring the unpleasant reminders of caste and clan, it was good to reminiscence about Kashmir through your words.   Kshmendra  --- On Sun, 6/14/09, Inder Salim wrote: From: Inder Salim Subject: Re: [Reader-list] Pasmanda Intellectuals' Forum Questions... To: "reader-list" Date: Sunday, June 14, 2009, 8:36 PM thanks Kshmendra ji for this link, Javed's reflections to Arshad was quite limited in scope, however sincere. Here, just to add, about kashmir: Wattal ( low caste muslims in kashmir ) are located in their own mohallas, own coloines,with their own shrines, graveyards and mosques, their music and marrainge cermonies are a shade different than the main stream,. then we have people Hanz, ( fishermen) who are traditionally live around river and dal lake,. they too have thei From indersalim at gmail.com Mon Jun 15 20:29:57 2009 From: indersalim at gmail.com (Inder Salim) Date: Mon, 15 Jun 2009 20:29:57 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] 'Men in uniform are Kashmir's problem, not solution' In-Reply-To: <956488.45190.qm@web57207.mail.re3.yahoo.com> References: <956488.45190.qm@web57207.mail.re3.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <47e122a70906150759w3f3bf7e0re0407c377f816a9c@mail.gmail.com> Thanks Dear Kshmendra the two sleeping dogs in the all the four images are witness to what i photographed with maximum zoom of my camera . It is south of Kashmir , few years back. may be army jawans were helping the two girls sitting on the stones. But note, in the third image the two girls are sitting on stones, but iin foruth image, in front of two army jawans one can see how their position shifts from stones to the ground. There is a clear sumbission, which speaks a lot. What has happened in Shopain, as we all know is not first time, but many numerous tragic things have happened and security forces were found directly involved in the acts, whether punished later on or not is another point. And so i guess, it is almost natural to see some echo in the images, echo of what has happened recently in Shopain. Why it has surpirsed you this time, i remember, in the past you have strongly condemned such acts, either by security forces or by militans. i respect that Here, i remember, Gh. Mohd. Shad ( my teacher at Anantnag College ) read a kashmiri poem few years back at Sahitya Academy NewDelhi, HEADS AND TAILS . which narratted the horrible acts commited by both security forces and militants. He read his own translation in englith at the same time. It is a well known fact, even before 1990 that Army jawans used to call or visit women from neighbouring contonmnent village areas. I know it becasue i used to go to Nawgam village to see my aunt. Nawgam is one of biggest cantonmnent areas in South of kashmir. But after 1990, something else added to that. which we explicity call Mass rape. Posh Pura tragedy is one such example. Yes, we are not talking here about the crimes commited by militants. They are numerous, and we all condemn that. Even the List has condemned the atorcities commited by militants or with militant looking guys. We know both Hindu and Muslim women suffered terribly on this account. yes, about the army: in ancient Greek, it was a part of traiing programme to rape the young boys. ....and during war, its implementation meant the necesary penetration into the enemy's territory. They believed so. One of the ways to humiliate the enemy has been to rape its women folk. Once, the winning army used to demolish the places of worships besides looting their property and raping women. But, humiliating women is still practicted, silently, unofficially during wars in third world coutires. Bangladesh women suffered terribley in 1971. and so have millions of women suffered during war, and silently after that. it is sad, truly sad. i am moved to tears even while talking about all this. I beleive, it was Japan who supplied Korean women from conquered territories to satisfy their men in uniforms. Few years, back my wife was travelling alone from Jammu to Delhi, and she had her reservation, but it happened to a full of Army Jawans. The noble TT changed her reservation to civilan coach. He told my wife that it is better to change I know some retired Army jawans, and it is very intereting to listen to anedotes during service....... and how they satiate their lust by raping Goats, buffaloes, mreres and hens even. it is terrible to think even. so love is On Mon, Jun 15, 2009 at 7:39 PM, Kshmendra Kaul wrote: > Dear Inder > > Something has been troubling me about your pics from > http://indersalim.livejournal.com/37697.html . I thought it best to ask you. > > You have titled the panel " A short story in four images from Kashmir" and > found in your "story" echoes of the Shopian Rapes. > > 1. You are suggesting that the Army Men (security guys) were responsible for > the Shopian Rapes. I thought guilt had to be established by evidence. Or, > are there varying ethical standards for different situations? > > 2. Pardon my asking this about your "story board". Where in Kashmir is this? > The one you call a 'local' does not appear to be a Kashmiri. The "girls" do > not appear to be "Kashmiri" girls. Would appreciate your feedback > > Kshmendra > > --- On Sun, 6/14/09, Inder Salim wrote: > > From: Inder Salim > Subject: Re: [Reader-list] 'Men in uniform are Kashmir's problem, not > solution' > To: "reader-list" > Date: Sunday, June 14, 2009, 4:27 PM > > thanks  for forward Mr . kapoor > > ... with army jawans it is a must to teach the enemy a lesson. the > lessons are usually carried out by SPECAAL OPERATION GROUPS who are > beyond the purview of Law or a simple enquiry. So needless of say > that why we have witnessed a large scale disaappearances of Men in > Kashmir, eliminated without trail often. > > A  HoD of Kashmir University , a close friend, was picked once by Army > in Anantnag and released after three days, that too because he managed > to arrange a meeting with a senior officer in Bahinal prison who > accidentally hapened to listen to his request, and was  subsequenlty > released. .Normally, it is the angry Jawan in uniform who controls the > street or an area and decides on the spot about the the person in > sight.  Rape is one such lesson. > > > I was once myself caught by Army jawans in Srinagar, it was cufew > time, and even after showing my I.card i was punished to perform Murga > ( chicken ) and then made to run..  The 'run' word those days meant to > shoot the runner from behind and label him as offender of curfew or a > terrorist etc. > > The men in uniform are supposed to be orderly, a friend in kashmir > told me once, while he agreed that militants usually come from weired > backgrounds and can do many bad things,.But, unfortunately Army record > in kahmir is very very poor in this regard, > > Few years back i happened to photograph two army jawans, a local man > and two girls, I could not dare to go near, and photographed them from > a distance. may click to see: > > http://indersalim.livejournal.com/37697.html > > Ir echoes what has happned in Shopian, recently,  alas. > > The Army should withdraw from towns and villages, without a second thought > > Kashmir issue has nothing to do with this unwanted  amry presence in > each and every corner of  kashmir. > > love > is > > > > > > > > On Sun, Jun 14, 2009 at 5:27 AM, Harsh Kapoor wrote: >> >> http://tinyurl.com/muga5v >> >> 'Men in uniform are Kashmir's problem, not solution' >> >> by Sanjay Kak >> (The Times of India, 14 Jun 2009) >> >> Those who use the media filter to try to understand what is happening >> in Kashmir should realize they're looking at a shadow play. A curtain >> lies >> between events and us. What is played out on the screen depends on who >> manipulates the sources of light. >> >> Last summer, the Valley was overwhelmed by several months of >> unprecedented non-violent public protest. It was triggered by the >> complicated Amarnath land issue, but on the streets the people were >> saying "Hum kya chahte? Azadi!" We are hearing this again this summer, >> triggered by the rape and murder of two young women from Shopian in >> south Kashmir. Only the stone deaf could miss the cry. >> >> Between these two summer uprisings came the Assembly elections of >> December. As everyone braced for a boycott, people did turn out to >> vote. This surprise turnout was presented as nothing short of a >> miracle and we were informed that this was "a vote for Indian >> democracy". Those who wondered why people who had braved bullets only >> a month ago should suddenly queue up to vote were reminded that >> Kashmiris were an unpredictable, even contrary, people. >> >> In fact, there is a frightening consistence about the Kashmiri chant >> for decades: "Hum kya chahte? Azadi!" Protests have begun for all >> sorts of reasons but they are a manifestation of the simmering anger >> always close to the surface. >> >> The current round of protests were given a head-start by the >> distinctly amateur vacillations of the state chief minister, not least >> his puzzling shifts on what may have actually happened to Nilofar, 22, >> and her sister-in-law Asiya, 17, on the night of May 29. >> Well-intentioned though he may be, Omar Abdullah seems very badly >> advised, or else possessed of a political death-wish. >> >> In its election campaign the National Conference made a point of >> underlining that it was seeking a mandate for development, for bijli, >> sadak, pani. It made no claim to settling masla-e-Kashmir or the >> Kashmir issue. But once the elections were over, they went along with >> the Indian establishment, which trumpeted the turnout as a decisive >> mandate in India's favour. The inability of Omar Abdullah's government >> to reach out to the people of the Valley in the past fortnight is a >> timely reminder of the dangers of that delusion. In just a little over >> 10 days, the protests have damaged the patina of normalcy that the >> election 'success' painted on a deeply troubled situation. >> >> In the middle of all this, but almost buried by events, the J&K police >> announced the arrest of Constable Nazir Ahmed of the India Reserve >> Police battalion for allegedly raping a minor girl in Baramulla in >> north Kashmir. (They admitted the constable was a former Personal >> Security Officer of Ghulam Hassan Mir, legislator and former >> minister). Days after the incident, a scuffle between the families of >> the victim and the policeman led to the tragic killing of the victim's >> grandmother. >> >> Both incidents of the past fortnight must be placed next to one from a >> few years ago, when the infamous "sex scandal" led to huge protests, >> bringing Srinagar to a grinding halt. That was a tawdry tale of the >> sexual exploitation of vulnerable women, including the prostitution of >> minors. It was on a massive scale, with the involvement of politicians >> , senior bureaucrats, police and paramilitary officers. The scandal >> exposed the ugly networks of power and oppression, which prop up the >> structures of control in Kashmir. It also laid bare the vulnerability >> of women all over the Valley, prey to the brutal arrogance unleashed >> by 20 years of intense militarization and unbridled power. >> >> It's a good time to remember that the acquisition of land for the >> Amarnath yatra was only the spark that set off last summer's protests. >> But the real fuel was widespread resentment about the fact that >> thousands of acres of agricultural, orchard and forest land is under >> occupation by the army and paramilitary forces, housing their feared >> camps and cantonments and vast logistics bases. The Kashmiris' >> behaviour then turns out to be underpinned by a fairly straightforward >> political reason: we don't need to delve into their fragile 'psyche'. >> >> This week, the lights behind the curtain are being moved around to >> give the illusion of change: the CRPF's duties are to be handed over >> to the J&K police. If true, this will need massive local police >> recruitment and give a disturbing new twist to the Indian government's >> promise of employment to young Kashmiris. (However, from the >> Establishment's point of view, a policeman in every home may well be a >> solution to Kashmir's troubles.) >> >> But this change of guard will not alter the lives of ordinary people. >> They do not care if the oppressive figure of the soldier wears the >> uniform of the Indian Army, its paramilitary forces, or is their >> neighbour in brand new fatigues. Such shallow transformation is not >> new: people remember the 'disbanding' of the dreaded Special >> Operations Group, which was simply merged into regular police >> operations; or the highly public way in which the CRPF replaced the >> BSF in Srinagar, leaving the countryside in the Army's iron grip. >> >> This summer's protest is not just about the rape and murder of two >> women, the violation of human rights, or even the repeal of some >> draconian law. The shadow play must not distract us from the real >> issue, which is the extraordinary and intolerable militarization of >> Kashmir. >> >> Sanjay Kak is a filmmaker whose most recent documentary >> 'Jashn-e-Azadi' explores the conflict in Kashmir >> _________________________________________ >> reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. >> Critiques & Collaborations >> To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with >> subscribe in the subject header. >> To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list >> List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> > > > -- > > http://indersalim.livejournal.com > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with subscribe > in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> > -- http://indersalim.livejournal.com From indersalim at gmail.com Mon Jun 15 20:35:58 2009 From: indersalim at gmail.com (Inder Salim) Date: Mon, 15 Jun 2009 20:35:58 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] fwd: http://queer-way-art.blogspot.com/ Message-ID: <47e122a70906150805t3fa70aeepf833c05e86e61a9c@mail.gmail.com> dear friends, the blog initiated by me (http://students-me-and-art-history.socialgo.com/)   had been growing steadily with many directions being added regularly – among many focuses, the one on interpreting Chandramohan’s work have by now developed into an area of focused discussion. This is to invite all of you to see or more preferably join-in on the above, or if you like to comment on any other themes, or you may even like     to post a new blog. Needles to say that your participation will be appreciated by all.  By now, I have also added more pictures of Chandramohan’s works in the photo section . sincerely shivaji. Pl also have a look at the blog:    http://queer-way-art.blogspot.com/ -- http://indersalim.livejournal.com From indersalim at gmail.com Mon Jun 15 22:57:13 2009 From: indersalim at gmail.com (Inder Salim) Date: Mon, 15 Jun 2009 22:57:13 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Fwd: Breaking Lines - Daastaan Books Message-ID: <47e122a70906151027s2d20766asc76bb3f4d11cf4d8@mail.gmail.com> From: Daastaan Books Date: Mon, Jun 15, 2009 at 9:43 AM Subject: Breaking Lines - Daastaan To: Dear All, I am extremely sorry for cross-posting. Please find below the description of the project that I would like to initiate on behalf of my publishing house. I would like to request you to suggest me a few names of young visual & performance artists and photographers for the collection. It will be really useful if you can also give me a name of a curator/art historian who will be able to write short note on the suggested artist and her/his works. Please do not hesitate to revert back if you think further information is required in this regard. Breaking Lines Daastaan is a very young publishing house with only four titles to its credit as of now. The first three titles were bilingual editions of poetry by three poets. The fourth title featured German author and musician Peter Pannke’s writings covering his songs, poems and essays. Now, Daastaan is interested in initiating a project ‘Breaking Lines’ that will involve the publishing of a collection of poems, short stories, photo-novellas and prose pieces written/created by young writers, artists and photographers. Breaking Lines is a series that hopes to feature the work of new visual artists and writers as well as those already established. It is a crossing of the threshold, a breaking of lines for both, as it looks at work that is finding its voice and work that is breaking past its established image. It showcases the experimental and the new. The aim of this publication is to explore the cerebral elasticity of the creative imagination. We thought of putting together those writings/photographs/artwork that a writer/ an artist wouldn’t think of publishing in a book. The ideal length of these pieces should not be more than 15000 words and for images it may go up to 10-12 in number. It could be one of those manuscripts that has been filed away thinking it too naive, too provocative, too abstract or simply meaningless and seemingly without context to publish. The categories for this collection are: Visual Art (images of paintings/installations/ sculptures), Creative Writing (poetry & prose), Graphic Stories, Performance Art (images and texts). Some of the confirmed contributors to this collection include Sarnath Bannerjee, Riyaz Komu, Palash Krishna Mehrotra, Anita Roy, Manola K. Gayatri, Biplam Rahman and Inder Salim.  -- Daastaan F - 23A Double Storey Motia Khan, Paharganj New Delhi 110055 India +91 98 11 92 29 52 -- From rakesh.rnbdj at gmail.com Mon Jun 15 23:16:59 2009 From: rakesh.rnbdj at gmail.com (Rakesh Iyer) Date: Mon, 15 Jun 2009 23:16:59 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Army retreat from J&K will be suicidal In-Reply-To: <341380d00906140529y275d0e0aobef36ae2a3636b86@mail.gmail.com> References: <6353c690906140351j5f4f8fa2l7e5c58f6a141abd0@mail.gmail.com> <341380d00906140529y275d0e0aobef36ae2a3636b86@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: Dear Anupam The points mentioned by you are certainly good. Particular in one is the question of political solutions because all these, whether these be Kashmir or the North-East, are in turn political problems. However, there's a small issue here. The way you have asked for debates among people, requires democratization not of the state (which is done through elections and legislatures), but infact democratization of the society. And this is something which has not been achieved anywhere in India at all, forget the 'conflict' zones of the nation. There can be many reasons as to why it's not there in India, but the fact is that it's not there. And one of the primary reasons why it's not there is because vote bank politics can't change the mentality of centuries. Even if Mayawati becomes the PM of India, Dalits will continue to be mistreated because our society is feudal and oppressive, not democratic. Therefore, this would require a lot of our own time for which all of us would have to make an effort to do this, and remove the fear which is lurking now in the minds of the people. Regarding Kashmir, this mistrust is very much there, and now it's among different sections of people. Kashmiri Pandits certainly don't trust the local Kashmiri Muslims very much, and certainly not the govt. either as of now. Equally, it may be true that Kashmiri Muslims also don't like the Pandits either, and the Indian army or the paramilitary forces or both of them have committed human right violations. And in all this hatred and animosity, the first virtue which must be present for any democratic debate to actually take place is tolerance. We must first think of building this, otherwise democratic debates will be taking place only on Sarai reader list or in our dreams, not in Kashmir or New Delhi (or the rest of India) . Regards Rakesh From rakesh.rnbdj at gmail.com Mon Jun 15 23:26:16 2009 From: rakesh.rnbdj at gmail.com (Rakesh Iyer) Date: Mon, 15 Jun 2009 23:26:16 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] 'Men in uniform are Kashmir's problem, not solution' In-Reply-To: <47e122a70906150759w3f3bf7e0re0407c377f816a9c@mail.gmail.com> References: <956488.45190.qm@web57207.mail.re3.yahoo.com> <47e122a70906150759w3f3bf7e0re0407c377f816a9c@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: Dear Kshamendra The first lesson our Indian army needs to be taught is to respect women, not rape them. It's not just Kashmir where this is happening. Even the sensitive North-East shows that the army doesn't respect women, and infact misuses AFSPA to do what it wishes. And now, through the Salwa Judum, we have come to the point where the militia colludes with the paramilitary forces and other divisions to torture women through rapes and killings. This is not what the army is meant for. While politicians have misunderstood the problem and have sent the armed forces in certain areas, the army does not have the right to misuse the power they have been granted in their hands. With power comes responsibility, and it's a massive one, to ensure that people are not targetted and in particular women are not targetted. Whoever is a rapist or committing crime against women, whoever he is, whichever party and ideology he belongs to, deserves punishment and the army men are not exceptions to this rule I believe in. It's high time such army men are brought behind bars, and our army must be warned about this. The army is not sent to enjoy women at places they are stationed for their sexual needs; it's sent to protect the nation (or the borders in this case or ensure law and order) and they should do that. Otherwise they should stop being in the army and become gigolos or male prostitutes. Regards Rakesh From pawan.durani at gmail.com Tue Jun 16 09:21:39 2009 From: pawan.durani at gmail.com (Pawan Durani) Date: Tue, 16 Jun 2009 09:21:39 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Massacres - contd. Message-ID: <6b79f1a70906152051v5ceb83ddh2c1cf464518ba5c@mail.gmail.com> Panglar Massacre Minority Hindu community continues to be the target of terrorists. On March 29, 2007 five labourers of the minority community were gunned down at Panglar (Dharamshal, Rajouri). The massacre took place soon after security forces were withdrawn from areas of Rajouri following pressure by PDP for de-militarisation. At 10:30 PM 2 terrorists in camouflage dress came to the residence of Mohammad Hussain at Panglar where eleven labourers had been staying in a rented room for past few days. Labourers hailed from neighbouring village of Solki and had been engaged by contractor Ram Lal for work on Mathyani-Panglar road. The terrorists before going for massacre entertained themselves by roasting a chicken in the adjoining room After consuming it they asked labourers to line up and reveal their identity, claiming they were from the Army. One labourer who turned out to be a Muslim was let off. Terrorists asked labourers to hand over watches and little cash they had with them. After lining up 10 labourers, terrorists started firing indiscriminately, killing 5 of them on spot and injuring four others. One of the labourers threw himself down, feigning to be dead. Before leaving terrorists had bolted door from outside, Mohamad Taseer the labourer who was asked to sit in a corner, was thrashed for working with labourers from the minority community. As labourers did not turn up for work next day, other labourers who had been putting up in rented room nearby came and opened the door. They rushed to Mathyani Gala Army picket, 3 km away. Among the killed were Sanjay Kumar, son of Raj Kumar, Mohinder Kumar, brother of Raj Kumar, Chaman Lal, Baldev Kumar, Rashpal Singh, all residents of Kushan, Solki (Kalakot) The injured included Subash Chander, Babu Ram, Raj Kumar and Ranmeet. The state chief minister Mr GN Azad who visited the site of massacre said, “the killings should open the eyes of those asking for demilitarization in the state. Militancy is there. It has not ed. Sometimes, the militants become active and sometimes they lie low but one thing is clear that it has not finished.”. Two young girls of Keri Khwas (Budhal) – 16 year old Shad Begam and 15 year old Parveen, alleged mistresses of Abdullah Inquilabi and Abu Sharaka, both Pakistanis were arrested for their role in massacre at the house of Dleep Singh at Bankan-Thawa, Chareda in Thathri area of Doda. On July 16, 07 Dev Raj, a VDC member and his eight year old daughter wers shot dead by terrorists. A group of terrorists entered the hamlet of Dahlal, inhabited by 200 people. They knocked at the doors of 2 adjacent houses of Dev Raj and Mukesh, both VDC members. Terrorists’ firing pierced the wooden planks, killing Dev Raj and his daughter Anju on Spot. In the neighbouring house they left a middle aged woman Reva Devi, Mukesh’ wife crtically injured. On July 25, 2007 Chaman Lal, a shepherd was killed by terrorists at Nighar Dhok in Marmat area of Doda. Chaman Lal, 32, son of Jameet Ram, resident of Mangota, Marmat had gone to graze his cattle in NigharDhok. He was asked to handover his cattle by a group of terrorists. As the shepherd refused, he was killed by slitting his throat. Many incidents have come to light in remote areas of Rajouri, Doda, Udhampur and Kathua districts where terrorists are forcing hindus to follow their diktat on marriages. They are forcing hindus to print ‘Allah Ki Meherbani on Wedding cards. The Hindus are also being asked not to don their religious symbols-Janaeu, Tilak and stop displaying the pictures of their deities. A family of Chain Singh, in a Rajouri village, which had been forced to convert, however reconverted to Hindusim after shifting from native village. On July 26 police recovered dead body of a civilian Om Prakash, S/o Sita Ram R/o Muradur from Bathuni Nullah near Rajouri. In Kupwara recently a Khatri trader was strangulated to death at his residence. Source: Kashmir Sentinel From pawan.durani at gmail.com Tue Jun 16 09:26:18 2009 From: pawan.durani at gmail.com (Pawan Durani) Date: Tue, 16 Jun 2009 09:26:18 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Married to militants and living in hell: Kashmiri girls Message-ID: <6b79f1a70906152056o72c2b21y91406944aa74ede0@mail.gmail.com> Married to militants and living in hell: Kashmiri girls By Binoo Joshi Not all marriages are  made in heaven. Some are solemnised at the point of a gun - as many women and teenaged girls in Jammu and Kashmir will tell you. Forced marriage to militants has wrecked their lives in the insurgency-wracked state. Fatima Bi, now 16, who belonged to Chatroo, a mountainous village in Kishtwar district, told IANS over telephone that she was just 12 when she was abducted by militants. She was studying in Class 7 in a local government school when one day a group of four militants led by Sher Khan, then divisional commander of Harkat-ul-Jehad-e-Islami (HUJI), barged into their house and kidnapped her. 'I was studying at that time when they abducted me,' she said. 'They took me to their hideout in the nearby forest where they beat me and tortured me for eight days. They hit me with rods on my thighs and threatened to kill my family if I did not marry Hashim Ditta,' she said. She said Ditta was a close friend of Sher Khan and a helper of HUJI. 'She was forced to marry Ditta at gun point,' said a police officer in Kishtwar. Fatima wanted to study and become a teacher. 'But my dreams were shattered after they abducted and forcibly married me to Ditta,' Fatima said. Ten months after her marriage she gave birth to a son and her 'childhood was snatched away when I delivered this baby'. A 'happy moment' for Fatima came when Sher Khan along with his two associates surrendered before the security forces last year. 'Except for bearing Ditta's child I never took him as my husband and there never was any such feeling as it was a forced marriage that ruined me,' she said. Sher Khan was sentenced to imprisonment for eight years. Fatima took this as an opportunity and fled Ditta's house along with her infant son. Ditta's parents, however, lodged a missing person report with police. Fatima went to her relatives in an adjoining village and fell in love with a farmer. Her second chance at life was however not so easy as the local clerics said even if it was a forced marriage, Fatima would have to live with Ditta until they got legally separated. Similar is the story of 18-year-old Chana whose nightmare started in early 2007. A Harkat-ul-Ansar (HUA) militant called Farid fell for her when he saw her grazing cattle in the Chicha area of Kishtwar district. She too was forced to marry at gun point. 'I too had dreams of getting married to a well-to-do person with all the rituals,' said Chana. 'But in forced marriages like ours it is just a couple of militants and a maulvi who form the marriage gathering.' A few months later, a Lashkar-e-Taiba (LeT) militant, Khalid, operating in the area, wanted to marry Chana and asked Farid to divorce her. But when Farid declined, the LeT militant shot him dead and also shot Chana in the left leg. She was forced to marry Khalid and now lives with him along with her and Farid's infant son. --Courtesy: IANS Service From kmvenuannur at gmail.com Tue Jun 16 10:21:15 2009 From: kmvenuannur at gmail.com (Venugopalan K M) Date: Tue, 16 Jun 2009 10:21:15 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Fwd: Left Debacle In Kerala and Elsewhere In-Reply-To: <1f9180970906152144n47f111abgb64325e3a968565b@mail.gmail.com> References: <1f9180970906152144n47f111abgb64325e3a968565b@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <1f9180970906152151m7bc1d03bu21bad82e1029fca7@mail.gmail.com> I would suggest that in Kerala, it was not just the Lavlin case. The fundamental mistake occurred when the Left lost touch with the masses. The crudely self righteous sermons in favour of what they called 'Development' and the criminal insensitivity toward the plights of victims of a neo-liberal political agenda were never taken without a pinch of salt. This seems true not just of those directly affected by new forms of deprivation but also others, who expected sort of care for human rights and natural justice on such things esp from a Left set up. While these criticisms were totally ignored by the Party, the Kerala leadership( with the backing of the Polit Bureau) even rubbished them as a handiwork of some imagined 'bourgeois media syndicate'. Kerala saw an entire Party being mobilised to defend Pinarayi, in the context of clear accusation of huge misappropriation of public funds and charges of corruption (Lavline). Thousands of landless people, mainly dalits, occupying a big rubber estate land in Chengara (Pathanamthitta dist) demanding it to be distributed to them was seen by the CPI(M) less a land issue than a 'conspiracy' by (foreign funded) NGOs and psuedo intellectuals. Direct assaults were unleashed (ostensibly in the name of protecting the interests of rubber tapping workers unions, and by goondas masquerading as CITU activists) against poor dalits including women and children. An honourable negotiated settlement on the Chengara land struggle was never attempted and is still pending. By and large, the media has been sympathetic to this issue though the CPI(M) showed it as yet another proof of 'meadia conspiracy'. Perhaps many of us we could even visualize the worst- some thing like Nandigram developing. Apparently thanks to the intervention by an enlightened section within and outside the Left set up, that didn't happen. In relation to the electoral debacle of the CPI(M) and the Left, I like to quote a statement in an analysis by the CPI(ML) (Liberation): ''...The epicentre of the anti-CPI(M) political earthquake lies squarely in the Singur-Nandigram seismic zone where the CPI(M) has been punished for its arrogant and coercive attitude to the peasantry and the intelligentsia, for its ruthless attempt to implement the same economic policies that it claims to have been opposing all along.." Though development like Nandigram did not happen here, land related issues in many places where people face threats of imminent eviction and brutal state violence are still continuing in Kerala. These have to do with issues connected with anti poor ,neo-liberal agenda often aiding Corporate land grabbings. -- http://venukm.blogspot.com/ -- http://venukm.blogspot.com/ From kshmendra2005 at yahoo.com Tue Jun 16 14:34:28 2009 From: kshmendra2005 at yahoo.com (Kshmendra Kaul) Date: Tue, 16 Jun 2009 02:04:28 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Reader-list] "The demise of Pakistan is inevitable" Message-ID: <8587.15646.qm@web57204.mail.re3.yahoo.com> I do not agree with the author's 'inevitable demise' projection. More so, I hope it isnt to be so. A fractured Pakistan will be a greater threat and nuisance to India and the World than it has already been all these years.   Kshmendra   EXTRACTS:   - Blackmailing the world by threatening imminent collapse is vintage Pakistan. Recently, President Asif Ali Zardari told Der Spiegel that the safety of Pakistan's nuclear arsenal depended entirely upon how well the world supported democracy in his battered country. ........ Having placed the burden of Pakistan's recovery from the mire of its own making on the world's shoulders, Zardari listed the "help" that his government expected: "billions of dollars".   -  Among the reasons cited by the Lahore high court in ordering Saeed's release was this bolt from the blue: "The security laws and anti-terrorism laws of Pakistan are silent on al-Qaida being a terrorist organisation."     "The demise of Pakistan is inevitable" (Its military establishment, hatred for India and history of injustice means Pakistan is a victim of the divisive logic that created it)   Kapil Komireddi guardian.co.uk, Sunday 14 June 2009   Pakistan's fight against the Taliban is an illusion. The world may view it as a battle for Pakistan's soul, but the generals in Rawalpindi, with whom real power rests, are not so sure. If they were, 200,000 of their finest fighters wouldn't be chewing grass on the eastern border with India while the so-called battle for Pakistan's survival rages on in the north-west.   Blackmailing the world by threatening imminent collapse is vintage Pakistan. Recently, President Asif Ali Zardari told Der Spiegel that the safety of Pakistan's nuclear arsenal depended entirely upon how well the world supported democracy in his battered country. "If democracy in this country fails, if the world doesn't help democracy," he warned, "then any eventuality is possible." Having placed the burden of Pakistan's recovery from the mire of its own making on the world's shoulders, Zardari listed the "help" that his government expected: "billions of dollars".   But Pentagon documents released earlier this month give an alarming account of where the benignant billions of aid dollars poured into Pakistan's coffers over the last decade have ended up: on the most modern weaponry – combat aircraft, laser-guided kits, anti-ship missiles, air-to-air missiles – for use against India. Under the cloak of this conflict, Pakistan has equipped itself for battle with its traditional enemy, rapidly increasing its nuclear weapons at the same time.   The Taliban's recent targets have unsettled their erstwhile paymasters, but nothing seems to deter Islamabad from continuing with its policy of patronising Islamic extremists – so long as they are devoted to destroying India. Punjab is littered with these groups. In Lahore last month, Yahya Mujahid told me that his group, the banned Jamat-ud-Dawah, would continue to fight against Indian rule in Kashmir. The operations "have gone somewhat cold", he admitted. But he spoke confidently and strode assuredly – a man who knew things would turn in his favour.   Three weeks later, Hafiz Saeed, Jamat-ud-Dawah's leader, who had been detained after India produced several dossiers linking him to last November's Mumbai attacks, was freed. Among the reasons cited by the Lahore high court in ordering Saeed's release was this bolt from the blue: "The security laws and anti-terrorism laws of Pakistan are silent on al-Qaida being a terrorist organisation." The trial was a farce, a repetition of Pakistan's time-tested tactic of appearing to act against anti-India jihadis while not taking any action at all.   Mani Shankar Aiyar once described Pakistan as a country "divided against itself, but united against India". From that delusional feudal megalomaniac Zulfi Bhutto's pledge to wage a "thousand-year war" against India to General Pervez Musharraf's desperate attempt in 1999 to nuke it, hatred of India has been the constitutive sine qua non for Pakistan's survival. It is the one bugbear that makes Pakistanis out of Sindhis and Baluchis, Pathans and Punjabis.   Many Pakistanis I spoke to agreed that their country has gone to the dogs. But Kashmir still evokes the romantic idea of a Muslim nationhood. Pakistan continues to be defined by the struggle that created it – a struggle founded upon the premise that Muslims and Hindus cannot co-exist in one nation. With all of India's social failings, its success at forging a nationality out of its diversity stands as a towering repudiation of this idea, and merely by being itself, impeaches the logic of partition. Pakistan cannot justify its existence as long as India accommodates religious diversity. It is not enough that Pakistan is a Muslim country: for its creation to be truly vindicated, the country it was carved out of must be Hindu. As long as Kashmir, a Muslim-majority state, remains part of India, Pakistan will view partition as unfinished business and itself as its incomplete product.   But the Pakistan that was created in 1947 ceased to exist in 1971 with the creation of Bangladesh – in a manner that doesn't just cast deep moral questions on Pakistan's claim to speak for Kashmiri Muslims, but also offers an object lesson against indulging procrustean nationalisms, of which Pakistan remains a paragon. Created expressly to safeguard the Muslims of the subcontinent, Pakistan perpetrated the biggest genocide of Muslims since the arrival of Islam in south Asia. At least seven million East Pakistanis in what is now Bangladesh were slaughtered by West Pakistani soldiers within the space of a few months in 1971. The Islamic bond which animates Pakistan's jihadist policy in Kashmir was absent during this massacre. It was secular India, its forces led entirely by non-Hindus – a Muslim air marshal (Idris Latif), a Sikh commander of ground forces (JS Aurora), a Parsi chief of army (Sam Manekshaw), and a Jewish strategist and principal negotiator (JFR Jacob) – which intervened to liberate Pakistanis from the madness of Pakistan.   What remained of Pakistan in 1971 became a plaything of the military-feudal-political elite who turned it into a back office for the outsourced wars of big powers. Three decades later, Pakistan represents state failure, religious extremism, terrorism, nuclear proliferation. Few dispensations have failed their people on the scale that Pakistan has: it exists solely to provide subsistence to the military establishment.   Within the next 20 years, Pakistan as we know it today will probably not exist. Built on the idea that differences between people must ultimately culminate in permanent division, Pakistan has become a victim of the very logic that created it: from Karachi in the south-east to Peshawar in the north-west, Jinnah's children are carrying his divisive message to its logical extreme. The tragedy is that this is not an aberration, but the acme, of the idea of Pakistan. guardian.co.uk © Guardian News and Media Limited   http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2009/jun/14/pakistan-taliban-india-military   From kshmendra2005 at yahoo.com Tue Jun 16 15:08:50 2009 From: kshmendra2005 at yahoo.com (Kshmendra Kaul) Date: Tue, 16 Jun 2009 02:38:50 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Reader-list] Taliban 'could spread to India and the Gulf' Message-ID: <853882.10803.qm@web57202.mail.re3.yahoo.com> It is the blackmailer's classic routine. Give me money or I will not provide the antidote for the lethal disease I have nurtured and help spread.   The full transcript of the interview with the blackmailing Foreign Minister of Pakistan, Mahmood Qureshi can be read at http://www.ft.com/cms/s/0/e58cabc6-58bf-11de-80b3-00144feabdc0.html   Reproduced below is one of the news items on it.   Kshmendra   "Taliban 'could spread to India and the Gulf'" http://archive.gulfnews.com/articles/09/06/16/10323189.html   06/15/2009 11:51 PM | Financial Times Islamabad: Pakistan has warned that the Taliban could spread beyond its borders to neighbouring India and as far as the Arabian Gulf, unless it receives international aid to help battle militancy on its soil.   Shah Mahmoud Quraishi, the foreign minister, said Pakistan would need up to $2.5 billion (Dh9.18 billion) in emergency relief and for long-term reconstruction of the Swat Valley and the surrounding region, once the fighting between government troops and militants had ended.   In an interview with the Financial Times, Quraishi said that figure compared to the $1 billion in aid initially estimated by government officials.   The warning comes as Pakistan widens its military offensive to other areas suspected of providing a safe haven to the Taliban. These include the Waziristan tribal region along the border with Afghanistan.   Pakistan's annual budget at the weekend earmarked Rs50 billion (Dh3.8 billion) over the next financial year to help people displaced by the Swat conflict. Western diplomats have warned that a failure to quickly help Swat victims could provoke unrest in parts of the country, central to the US-led war on terror in Afghanistan.   "They [militants] have a global agenda. They have a regional agenda, they are not confined to Pakistan. They could go in to the [Arabian] Gulf, they could go in to India, they can go anywhere," Quraishi said.   "There is a collective interest and there has to be a collective realisation that this is not Pakistan's problem. It's a larger problem."   The United States has begun lobbying the oil-rich Arab countries of the Gulf Co-operation Council [GCC] to be more generous in helping Pakistan deal with the fallout of the offensive in the Swat Valley.   The GCC is a region which traditionally has had close business and military ties with Pakistan and is home to a large expatriate Pakistani community.   Quraishi said US efforts to encourage GCC aid were only meant to "complement" Pakistan's own recent contacts with GCC countries seeking help.   "They [the United States] are trying to help in whatever way they can, but Pakistan has independent relations [with the GCC]," he said.   A GCC diplomat in Islamabad told the Financial Times that Pakistan needed to "revive closer relations" with the region "which have been neglected in the war on terror".   "Pakistan has an important role in our region but that role has to be built up very slowly through further effort," the diplomat said.   Pakistan has announced a budget for the next year aimed at reviving a moribund economy buffeted by the global economic crisis.     From rakesh.rnbdj at gmail.com Tue Jun 16 15:12:19 2009 From: rakesh.rnbdj at gmail.com (Rakesh Iyer) Date: Tue, 16 Jun 2009 15:12:19 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] "The demise of Pakistan is inevitable" In-Reply-To: <8587.15646.qm@web57204.mail.re3.yahoo.com> References: <8587.15646.qm@web57204.mail.re3.yahoo.com> Message-ID: Dear Kshamendra Pakistan, in a sense is already fractured. We are in a situation now, where there is no idea about whom India can talk to and trust, and who it can't. We have Zardari, Gilani and Kayani, the state actors (or those who are acting, as done in films, for the Pakistani state on the world stage) who always want to get more funds to actually buy weapon systems against Pakistan, in the name of fighting terrorism on their western border and blackmail other nations that their nation won't survive. At the same time, we have non-state actors, who are directly or indirectly supported by the state actors, who create problems of different kind and blasts like Mumbai 26/11 or others. And these non-state actors create problems for their own people too sometimes, like Peshawar blasts and Lal Masjid incident. The triple conundrum of terrorism in India, which we in India have been suffering from, has one of the problems as the Pakistani state. I don't feel that the Pakistani common people have any interest in training people to conduct terror blasts in India, but many sections of the Pakistani elite and the Pakistani army are involved in this, and we need to seriously look into this. Through diplomatic pressure or other means, it's time for not only India, but the entire world to look into this. This world, as it is, is already suffering from so many problems. We should concentrate on such problems rather than fighting another problem by creating it. Hence, the Pakistani state should be told in stricter terms that no financial aid would be provided to them, and only help through the Red Cross or the UNICEF or other humanitarian aid would be provided. Equally, it's the responsibility of all, including the USA, to stop giving such military equipment, which only fuels further anger against the US in the minds of the common people and encourages them to join the Taliban. Instead, we should go for a different strategy and start talking with those who actually don't want violence. Most of those who are joining Taliban, I don't feel, are interested in making Islam the supreme religion. Their concern is simply that innocents are getting killed in such wars, and therefore we need to separate such people from the hoodlums and the elite among the Taliban who set useless agendas. Even if my suggestion is too much, at least the current stream of US action is not going to help, and it is imperative that we change the course. Otherwise, Obama would have still gone the same course as Bush did, and 4 years from now, people would realize that Obama never brought the change he was supposed to. And if Pakistan actually states that the Taliban will win, then somebody has to take the courage to call Pakistan's bluff. Because as I see it, the Taliban and the Pakistani state will continue to co-exist, irrespective of whatever others want to say about it. The elites in both have set the agendas, and they won't move away from each other. Regards Rakesh From rajen786uppinangady at gmail.com Tue Jun 16 15:20:39 2009 From: rajen786uppinangady at gmail.com (Rajendra Bhat Uppinangadi) Date: Tue, 16 Jun 2009 15:20:39 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] 'Men in uniform are Kashmir's problem, not solution' In-Reply-To: References: <956488.45190.qm@web57207.mail.re3.yahoo.com> <47e122a70906150759w3f3bf7e0re0407c377f816a9c@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <7271ec560906160250i110f525fvbdcc502ee97e297d@mail.gmail.com> Dear Rakesh, Inder, and all those who sermon about "respecting " women, and generalizing the sweeping statements, please do little introspection before you sweep the black brush on army jawans who risk their life 24 x7 at the law and order issue of Jammu and Kasmir state, which has law and order issue, basically to be controlled by the police force of the stste, not by army as such. Army comes in when it is beyond the control of policy makers and executives who for their selfish reasons fail in good governance, as this state had most of the time has had a chief minister who lived like a maharaja , spending his time in London and other places in golf clubs and roaming with starlets in a scooter, never bothered with issues affecting his citizens. Atleast now, it has a chief minister, who has a seemingly good vision for his citizens, unlike the previous deispensation of PDP and Congress alliance which had Mufti Sayeed who for his daughter Rubina wanted the terrorists to be leleased.! Please do think again, defence forces are for defending the nation at all times, against the enemies of the nation, with offencive or defensive actions, in peace time for emergency relief works at the times of natural calamities, such as cyclones, floods and tsunamis or earthquakes, but to use army for years in a state for law and order is big mstake the system of governance is indulging in, and most importantly, insurgency at borders has to be checked and elimiated at the borders, and inside help for such insurgents has to be dealt by the police of the state, even with special groups or SITs, for such actions. If the defence forces such as army is used for long periods of time for law and order issues in states except in special occassions like riots or occassional law and order issues, then army looses its focus of attacking the "enemy" as its own citizens who are abetting and helping the insurgents are in psyche become enemies for them. On Mon, Jun 15, 2009 at 11:26 PM, Rakesh Iyer wrote: > Dear Kshamendra > > The first lesson our Indian army needs to be taught is to respect women, > not > rape them. It's not just Kashmir where this is happening. Even the > sensitive > North-East shows that the army doesn't respect women, and infact misuses > AFSPA to do what it wishes. And now, through the Salwa Judum, we have come > to the point where the militia colludes with the paramilitary forces and > other divisions to torture women through rapes and killings. > > This is not what the army is meant for. While politicians have > misunderstood > the problem and have sent the armed forces in certain areas, the army does > not have the right to misuse the power they have been granted in their > hands. With power comes responsibility, and it's a massive one, to ensure > that people are not targetted and in particular women are not targetted. > > Whoever is a rapist or committing crime against women, whoever he is, > whichever party and ideology he belongs to, deserves punishment and the > army > men are not exceptions to this rule I believe in. It's high time such army > men are brought behind bars, and our army must be warned about this. The > army is not sent to enjoy women at places they are stationed for their > sexual needs; it's sent to protect the nation (or the borders in this case > or ensure law and order) and they should do that. Otherwise they should > stop > being in the army and become gigolos or male prostitutes. > > Regards > > Rakesh > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > subscribe in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> > -- Rajen. From rakesh.rnbdj at gmail.com Tue Jun 16 15:32:50 2009 From: rakesh.rnbdj at gmail.com (Rakesh Iyer) Date: Tue, 16 Jun 2009 15:32:50 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] 'Men in uniform are Kashmir's problem, not solution' In-Reply-To: <7271ec560906160250i110f525fvbdcc502ee97e297d@mail.gmail.com> References: <956488.45190.qm@web57207.mail.re3.yahoo.com> <47e122a70906150759w3f3bf7e0re0407c377f816a9c@mail.gmail.com> <7271ec560906160250i110f525fvbdcc502ee97e297d@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: Dear Rajen jee First of all, I feel the sweeping generalization should not have been made with respect to women, but with respect to the kind of acts our army has engaged in with time. First of all, the situation of 1990 is over, and if we believe that Kashmir is relatively more peaceful than it was last time, neither the army nor the paramilitary forces should be engaged in maintenance of law and order. It is only the responsibility of the police to deal with that in a normal situation. In case of abnormal situations, first the RAF and the state police force should be used, and only when it's too much for them to bring the situation under control (either because situation is bad or because they are accused of being partisan) should Central forces intervene. What is the requirement of the army occupying orchards (or even paramilitary forces doing so)? Has the army taken over the occupation of growing apples or protecting citizens? Similarly, the army is sent to protect people, not fleece them or create problems for them. They should set up communication with the local people and work with them, not against them. If that were the case, all this problem would not have been seen either in Kashmir, or in the North-East, or in Chhatisgarh (where the paramilitary forces working with Salwa Judum activists have been indulging in activities of dubious kinds). Second, there's a difference between finding out culprits and misbehaving with people. Even if women have been involved in crimes to protect those infiltrating from the Pakistani side to conduct terror blasts, that does not mean that our armed forces (this not only means the army but includes everyone from the police to the paramilitary forces to the army to those who do similar functions for the state), have the right to rape them even in that situation. And we are talking about women who are innocent. My last point is about the AFSPA. There are accounts and accounts of how this act has been misused, so this act must be repealed. There is no need for this act to be there. And again as you yourself said, let us equip the police and give them the power and the arms (along with responsibility of course) to properly deal with the situation. As far as Mufti Sayeed is concerned, I am wondering what would you have done in a similar situation if your own daughter were kidnapped by terrorists, or hijacked in a plane as had happened in Kandahar. Anyways, the fact is that all of us as Indians are total cowards, and whether it be Rubaiyya Sayeed or Kandahar plane hijack, all of us think about our own relatives only. Otherwise we would not have been one of the most corrupt nations of the universe. Regards Rakesh From kshmendra2005 at yahoo.com Tue Jun 16 16:04:27 2009 From: kshmendra2005 at yahoo.com (Kshmendra Kaul) Date: Tue, 16 Jun 2009 03:34:27 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Reader-list] The US advice on Kashmir is lunacy - M J Akbar Message-ID: <219304.14860.qm@web57201.mail.re3.yahoo.com> MJ Akbar "The US advice on Kashmir is lunacy" 14 Jun 2009, 0038 hrs IST, M J Akbar If you want to sell arsenic, the kindest way to do so is to disguise it as medicine heavily coated with sugar. There is nothing particularly new about the proposal of an interim balm for the wounds of Kashmir, demilitarization on both sides of the Line of Control. What is novel is the heavy Washington endorsement of this Pakistan-promoted option. This is not all. Unusually for a senior diplomat of a super power that affects neutrality, US under secretary of state for political affairs, William Burns, chose Delhi as the venue for a message designed to disturb the equanimity of his hosts, when he said, "Any resolution of Kashmir has to take into account the wishes of the Kashmiri people". That must have been music to Islamabad's ears. Demilitarization sounds so sweetly reasonable, a definitive gesture of de-escalation. The Obama administration is delighted by the prospect of collateral benefit. This would release more Pak troops for the war against Taliban. Pakistan has shifted some brigades from the Indian border, but not from the Line of Control. Self-interest may have blinded Washington to an obvious fallacy in this "reasonable" formulation. In all three major Kashmir conflicts — 1947, 1965 and Kargil — Pakistan has used a two-tier strategy. A surrogate force has served as a first line of offense. The Pakistani term for them has been consistent; they have come in the guise of "freedom fighters". India called them "raiders" in 1947 and 1965, and defines them as terrorists now. This surrogate force has expanded its operations far beyond Kashmir, as the terrorist attacks on Mumbai confirmed. DMZs (De-Militarized Zones) would guarantee the security of Pakistan and weaken India's defences, since there is no suggestion that terrorist militias are going to be "demilitarized". Should the Indian army leave the Kashmir valley to the mercy of well-organized, finely-trained, generously-financed indiscriminate organisations? India has no corresponding surrogate force, because it is a status-quo power; it makes no claims on any neighbour's territory. If America wants a DMZ (De-Militarized Zone) in India they will first have to ensure a DTZ (De-Terrorised Zone) in Pakistan. India and Pakistan may have a common problem in terrorism, but they do not have terrorists in common. Those who have inflicted havoc already in India, and those who intend to do so in future, are safe in their havens in Lahore and Multan and Karachi. Pakistan's ambivalence on terrorism was exposed yet again by the release of Prof Hafeez Mohammad Sayeed, emir of Jamaat ud Dawa, from house arrest on June 6. It needed an official sanction by the UN Security Council to send him into soft detention. The government's duplicity was evident in the frailty of the case against him. The Lahore High Court, which ordered his release, discovered that Pakistan had not even placed al-Qaeda on its list of terrorist organizations. Islamabad may have taken action against militants in the Frontier who pose a threat to Pakistan, but it continues to mollycoddle those who threaten India. Islamabad's leverage has risen in Obama's Washington for good reasons. America may have outsourced flat-world, high-tech jobs to soft-power India. But America has outsourced a full-scale Af-Pak war to Pakistan. Rewards for India come in corporate balance sheets and middle-class jobs. Compensation for Pakistan comes in billions of dollars for the army (as much as $5 billion of which has been diverted, so far, to the purchase of conventional weapons meant primarily for use against India) and much more in aid and soft-loans. Pakistan believes that money is insufficient. It wants the bonus of political rewards. It expects a Pak-US nuclear pact, not because it is in need of fuel for peaceful or martial purposes, but in order to quasi-legitimize its status as a nuclear power. Islamabad also wants some settlement on Kashmir that it can sell to its people as a victory. Former president Pervez Musharraf may be out of circulation but ideas that jumped out of his box a few years ago are back in play. He has just given an interview to Der Spiegel in which he suggests that India and Pakistan were close to an agreement over his proposals: "demilitarization of the disputed area, self-governance and a mutual overwatch." Delhi insisted on the conversion of the Line of Control into a formal border, but the thought that the two countries came close has given Washington reason to believe that it can now pressurize Delhi to make some concession, perhaps by agreeing to make the Line of Control "irrelevant" by "opening transit routes". There is great danger in this "soft border" thesis. How can you have a "soft border" unless both sides recognize it as a border? Moreover, what does the phrase "mutual overwatch" mean? Both would dilute symbols of Indian sovereignty in Kashmir. Musharraf, who sounds bored by his new routine of bridge with friends at his flat in London, says he is ready to broker a peace deal. The search for peace might prove to be tougher than starting a war in Kargil. var zz=0;var sldsh=0; var bellyaddiv = ' '; var stindex=100; var stp=150; var taglen=0; var tmp; var tagcheck = new Array("div","span","br","font","a"); var storycontent = document.getElementById("storydiv").innerHTML; var firstpara = storycontent.substring(0,storycontent.toLowerCase().indexOf(" ")).toLowerCase(); function findptt(cnt){ zz++; if(zz == 10)return; var xxx=-1,yyy=-1; var ccnt = cnt; for(ii=0; ii < tagcheck.length; ii++){ xxx = ccnt.indexOf(" From rahul_capri at yahoo.com Tue Jun 16 19:12:06 2009 From: rahul_capri at yahoo.com (Rahul Asthana) Date: Tue, 16 Jun 2009 06:42:06 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Reader-list] The US advice on Kashmir is lunacy - M J Akbar Message-ID: <36096.61920.qm@web53606.mail.re2.yahoo.com> The US policy in Pakistan is in its self interest(which any country's should be,I have no problems with that).Its short term goal is to disengage from Afghanistan.For that it needs its lapdogs in the Pakistani army to fight its war in NWFP and Afghanistan. So it will do whatever it can in its power to support Pakistani position on Kashmir.It was interesting to see the US travel advisory against India on the release of Hafiz Sayeed. Its laughable because its unimaginable that Hafiz Sayeed would have been released without a nod from the masters from US.(His house arrest was a sham anyway but that's another matter).And those same masters who had no objection to his release are now taking a cue from Indian media to release travel advisory against India! The only way US will ask its lapdogs in the Pakistani army to restrain their jihadis is if India lets it be known that it will not let Pakistani army carry on its policy of jihadism without any reaction. --- On Tue, 6/16/09, Kshmendra Kaul wrote: > From: Kshmendra Kaul > Subject: [Reader-list] The US advice on Kashmir is lunacy - M J Akbar > To: "sarai list" > Date: Tuesday, June 16, 2009, 4:04 PM > > > > MJ Akbar > > > "The US advice on Kashmir is lunacy" > 14 Jun 2009, 0038 hrs IST, M J Akbar > > > > > > > If you want to sell arsenic, the kindest way to do so is to > disguise it as medicine heavily coated with sugar. There is > nothing particularly new about the proposal of an interim > balm for the wounds of Kashmir, demilitarization on both > sides of the Line of Control. What is novel is the heavy > Washington endorsement of this Pakistan-promoted option. > > This is not all. Unusually for a senior diplomat of a super > power that affects neutrality, US under secretary of state > for political affairs, William Burns, chose Delhi as the > venue for a message designed to disturb the equanimity of > his hosts, when he said, "Any resolution of Kashmir has to > take into account the wishes of the Kashmiri people". That > must have been music to Islamabad's ears. > > Demilitarization sounds so sweetly reasonable, a definitive > gesture of de-escalation. The Obama administration is > delighted by the prospect of collateral benefit. This would > release more Pak troops for the war against Taliban. > Pakistan has shifted some brigades from the Indian border, > but not from the Line of Control. > > Self-interest may have blinded Washington to an obvious > fallacy in this "reasonable" formulation. In all three major > Kashmir conflicts — 1947, 1965 and Kargil — Pakistan has > used a two-tier strategy. A surrogate force has served as a > first line of offense. The Pakistani term for them has been > consistent; they have come in the guise of "freedom > fighters". India called them "raiders" in 1947 and 1965, and > defines them as terrorists now. This surrogate force has > expanded its operations far beyond Kashmir, as the terrorist > attacks on Mumbai confirmed. > > DMZs (De-Militarized Zones) would guarantee the security of > Pakistan and weaken India's defences, since there is no > suggestion that terrorist militias are going to be > "demilitarized". Should the Indian army leave the Kashmir > valley to the mercy of well-organized, finely-trained, > generously-financed indiscriminate organisations? India has > no corresponding surrogate force, because it is a status-quo > power; it makes no claims on any neighbour's territory. > > If America wants a DMZ (De-Militarized Zone) in India they > will first have to ensure a DTZ (De-Terrorised Zone) in > Pakistan. > > India and Pakistan may have a common problem in terrorism, > but they do not have terrorists in common. Those who have > inflicted havoc already in India, and those who intend to do > so in future, are safe in their havens in Lahore and Multan > and Karachi. Pakistan's ambivalence on terrorism was exposed > yet again by the release of Prof Hafeez Mohammad Sayeed, > emir of Jamaat ud Dawa, from house arrest on June 6. It > needed an official sanction by the UN Security Council to > send him into soft detention. The government's duplicity was > evident in the frailty of the case against him. The Lahore > High Court, which ordered his release, discovered that > Pakistan had not even placed al-Qaeda on its list of > terrorist organizations. > > Islamabad may have taken action against militants in the > Frontier who pose a threat to Pakistan, but it continues to > mollycoddle those who threaten India. > > Islamabad's leverage has risen in Obama's Washington for > good reasons. America may have outsourced flat-world, > high-tech jobs to soft-power India. But America has > outsourced a full-scale Af-Pak war to Pakistan. > > Rewards for India come in corporate balance sheets and > middle-class jobs. Compensation for Pakistan comes in > billions of dollars for the army (as much as $5 billion of > which has been diverted, so far, to the purchase of > conventional weapons meant primarily for use against India) > and much more in aid and soft-loans. Pakistan believes that > money is insufficient. It wants the bonus of political > rewards. It expects a Pak-US nuclear pact, not because it is > in need of fuel for peaceful or martial purposes, but in > order to quasi-legitimize its status as a nuclear power. > Islamabad also wants some settlement on Kashmir that it can > sell to its people as a victory. > > Former president Pervez Musharraf may be out of circulation > but ideas that jumped out of his box a few years ago are > back in play. He has just given an interview to Der Spiegel > in which he suggests that India and Pakistan were close to > an agreement over his proposals: "demilitarization of the > disputed area, self-governance and a mutual overwatch." > Delhi insisted on the conversion of the Line of Control into > a formal border, but the thought that the two countries came > close has given Washington reason to believe that it can now > pressurize Delhi to make some concession, perhaps by > agreeing to make the Line of Control "irrelevant" by > "opening transit routes". > > There is great danger in this "soft border" thesis. How can > you have a "soft border" unless both sides recognize it as a > border? Moreover, what does the phrase "mutual overwatch" > mean? Both would dilute symbols of Indian sovereignty in > Kashmir. > > Musharraf, who sounds bored by his new routine of bridge > with friends at his flat in London, says he is ready to > broker a peace deal. > > The search for peace might prove to be tougher than > starting a war in Kargil. > var zz=0;var sldsh=0; >             >             >             >             >         var bellyaddiv = > '  '; > var stindex=100; > var stp=150; > var taglen=0; > var tmp; > var tagcheck = new Array("div","span","br","font","a"); > var storycontent = > document.getElementById("storydiv").innerHTML; > var firstpara = > storycontent.substring(0,storycontent.toLowerCase().indexOf(" > > ")).toLowerCase(); > function findptt(cnt){ > zz++; > if(zz == 10)return; >     var xxx=-1,yyy=-1; >     var ccnt = cnt; >     for(ii=0; ii < tagcheck.length; > ii++){ >         xxx = ccnt.indexOf(" > > >       > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the > city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net > with subscribe in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> From schen at law.harvard.edu Tue Jun 16 19:55:55 2009 From: schen at law.harvard.edu (Shun-Ling Chen) Date: Tue, 16 Jun 2009 07:25:55 -0700 Subject: [Reader-list] Shahidul Alam detained by Indian Border Security Force Message-ID: <3d5801c9ee8e$5c0d6c00$496a010a@mail2world.com> http://unheardvoice.net/blog/2009/06/16/shahidul-alam-detained-by-indian -border-security-force/ Dr Shahidul Alam, well-known photographer, and founder Drik, was detained by Indian Border Security Forces while working on the Bangladesh side of the border on his Brahmaputra project. He called me at 18:21 pm to tell me that the guards had asked him to come over, and then detained him at Sahapara 21 IPP, across the border from Rowmari. His two colleagues are on the Bangladeshi side of the border, and can't get to him. Please contact Home and Foreign Ministry officials requesting that they do all possible to get him released immediately. It is worth mentioning that the Indian BSF have detained and killed many innocent Bangladeshis in recent years, in the border areas. http://www.mediahelpingmedia.org/content/view/387/1/ News - South Asia By David Brewer Tuesday, 16 June 2009 Reports from Bangladesh say that Shahidul Alam, the photo journalist, blogger and founder of the Drik picture network has been detained by Indian border security forces while working on the Bangladesh side of the border. In a message to this site from Dhaka, Alam's partner says he was working on a multimedia project about the Brahmaputra with two colleagues when border guards took him awa There are now fears for Alam's safety and supporters are calling on the international community to push for his release. The last message from Shahidul Alam came through at !8:21 on Tuesday 16 June when he called home to say that border security guards had asked him to come over to the Indian side of the border where they detained him at Sahapara 21 IPP, across the border from Rowmari. His two colleagues are on the Bangladeshi side of the border, and can't get to him. At the time Alam was working on the Bangladesh end of the river Brahmaputra project. He had travelled to Kurigram with two Drik colleagues to take photos, video and stills. Contact has been made with a number of local and international media organisations and government officials, including the Indian High Commission. From 2tahamehmood at googlemail.com Tue Jun 16 21:31:19 2009 From: 2tahamehmood at googlemail.com (Taha Mehmood) Date: Tue, 16 Jun 2009 17:01:19 +0100 Subject: [Reader-list] MNIC: Parliament Questions - 23 Message-ID: <65be9bf40906160901p68b45315j61ff3ed5fa3a4013@mail.gmail.com> http://164.100.47.132/psearch/QResult13.aspx?qref=33954 GOVERNMENT OF INDIA MINISTRY OF LABOUR LOK SABHA UNSTARRED QUESTION NO 3179 ANSWERED ON 10.12.2001 FAMILY PHOTO IDENTITY CARDS IN KARNATAKA 3179 . Shri H.G. RAMULU (a) whether the Employees State Insurance Corporation (ESIC) has introduced family photo identity cards to the insured persons; and (b) if so, the number of persons who have been issued family photo-identity cards in Karnataka so far? ANSWER MINISTER OF STATE FOR LABOUR AND EMPLOYMENT ( SHRI MUNI LALL ) (a): Yes, Sir. (b): About 55, 700 Family Photo Identity Cards have been issued to Insured Persons in Karnataka, so far. From 2tahamehmood at googlemail.com Tue Jun 16 21:33:10 2009 From: 2tahamehmood at googlemail.com (Taha Mehmood) Date: Tue, 16 Jun 2009 17:03:10 +0100 Subject: [Reader-list] MNIC: Parliament Questions - 24 Message-ID: <65be9bf40906160903x4fbb47dcy4ceda9ad209e4938@mail.gmail.com> http://164.100.47.132/psearch/QResult13.aspx?qref=32732 GOVERNMENT OF INDIA MINISTRY OF HOME AFFAIRS LOK SABHA UNSTARRED QUESTION NO 3487 ANSWERED ON 11.12.2001 MULTI-PURPOSE IDENTITY CARDS FOR INDIAN CITIZENS 3487 . Shri N.T. SHANMUGAM BHAVANA PUNDLIKRAO GAWALI (a) Whether the Government propose to issue Multi-purpose National Identity Cards to Indian Citizens; (b) if so, the details thereof; (c) whether the Government have commissioned a detailed feasibility study of National Identity Cards system through a professional consultancy firm; (d) if so, the present status of the feasibility study; (e) the time by which this card system is likely to be put into effect; and (f) the likely utility of the photo identity card presently issued by the Election Commission of India in this context? ANSWER THE MINISTER OF STATE IN THE MINISTRY OF HOME AFFAIRS (CH. VIDYASAGAR RAO) (a) to (f): Yes, Sir. The Government proposes to issue multipurpose National Identity Cards to Indian citizens, which, apart from providing a credible identification system, would also have multifarious socio-economic uses. The Government had entrusted the task of preparation of a feasibility study report to a professional consultancy firm for the issue of Multipurpose National Identity Cards to the Indian citizens. The detailed report received from the firm has covered aspects relating to the creation of an identification system of one billion people, streamlining of the machinery for the registration of births and deaths at the Panchayat level and institutional as well as technological options for the creation of an integrated data base of personal identities capable of being continuously updated. The Government will finalise its decision only after an in-depth examination of all relevant issues and after necessary preparations are made for launching the system, including giving legal backing to the scheme. The photo identity card issued by the Election Commission of India is not a universal system of identification based on compulsory registration of Indian citizens or registration of birth and death. From kauladityaraj at gmail.com Tue Jun 16 22:19:19 2009 From: kauladityaraj at gmail.com (Aditya Raj Kaul) Date: Tue, 16 Jun 2009 22:19:19 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] PDP in Shopian - Reality Check Message-ID: <6353c690906160949x4e76d14clfd1805e17088a11d@mail.gmail.com> *Indian Express Photo by Javed Shah* Cops at Kothibagh police station taking in crockery and food items to serve the arrested PDP politicians *Link* - http://www.kashmirlive.com/picturegallery.php?imageNo=25&albumId=136 From kauladityaraj at gmail.com Tue Jun 16 22:22:26 2009 From: kauladityaraj at gmail.com (Aditya Raj Kaul) Date: Tue, 16 Jun 2009 22:22:26 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Taliban buying kids to for Rs 5 lakh to act as suicide bomber, says Rehman Malik Message-ID: <6353c690906160952p374847f5ydf01ea465f68e501@mail.gmail.com> Taliban buying kids to for Rs 5 lakh to act as suicide bomber, says Rehman MalikIslamabad, June 16 (ANI): The Taliban is buying children for 500,000 to 2.5 million rupees to convert them into suicide bombers, and execute barbarous terrorist activities, Pakistan’s Interior Minister Rehman Malik has revealed. Speaking at an award distribution ceremony, Malik said Pakistan is determined to continue the war against terrorism till the Taliban are flushed out of the country. “We had two options either to surrender before the terrorists or fight with them and now terrorists were bound to run from Swat, Dir and Buner,” The News quoted Malik, as saying. He claimed that insurgents based in Afghanistan were supplying weapons and ammunition to the Pak-Taliban, and the Pakistan government had taken up this matter with Afghan President Hamid Karzai. Lashing out at the terrorists, Malik said they are responsible for tarnishing the image of Islam and Pakistan, and now citizen having Pakistani passports were being considered as terrorists in the world. Malik said the Federal Government has decided to increase the Islamabad police strength by 20,000 to overcome the shortage in the force. (ANI) From 2tahamehmood at googlemail.com Tue Jun 16 22:35:55 2009 From: 2tahamehmood at googlemail.com (Taha Mehmood) Date: Tue, 16 Jun 2009 18:05:55 +0100 Subject: [Reader-list] Few observations on questions asked in the Parliament on MNIC Message-ID: <65be9bf40906161005i364365abx99bd90d70e4b4ace@mail.gmail.com> Dear All As some of you might have noticed from the two dozens or so questions which I have posted on the list so far and which pertains to the XIII Lok Sabha session (1999-2004) regarding the subject of MNIC and various other schemes of personal identification, that these questions and corresponding answers perhaps suggest certain trends. a) The GOI runs numerous schemes of personal identification. b) These schemes reflect the bureaucratic division of various citizens under different categories. For instance, pensioners, laborers, army men and so on. c) That from time to time the GOI apportions some money for the management of these schemes. d) More often than not, the money marked for such exercises is either not spent or is under utilized. For instance questions related to under- distribution of voter id cards and under utilization of money thereof suggests this systematic anomaly. e) Over a period of time these schemes are viewed as inefficient because of systemic corruption or because of inability of the department concerned to focus on a task and deliver within a predetermined time frame or other factors which were localized and pertained to idiosyncrasies of geography or political environment at the time of survey or logistical hiccups etc. f) With a change in technological environment newer schemes are proposed with a promise to cover all the failures of older schemes. g) Change of a method was also proposed in view of a need to project an image of a responsible, concerned Government when the government of the day was under pressure to handle situations based on notions like 'terrorism or illegal immigration' although no evidence exists which proves inconclusively that introduction of a national identity card scheme in a nation leads to eradication of either 'illegal immigration' or 'terrorism'. h) The Government which had already distributed a huge amount of public funds under various personal identification schemes now starts putting forth a view that there exists many identification cards and there needs to be one document. If that is so then why was the need to have so many identity cards earlier? i) MNIC is proposed. j) The final push for MNIC comes after a so called, 'feasibility report' which was prepared by a 'Private Corporate Organization'. Why a private organization? Is the Government of India which has a rich history of carrying out census surveys dating back to 1871 see its own departments as intellectually incapable of carrying out a mere feasibility report. One wonders....why should government of India rely so much on the intellectual arguments and empirical evidence collected, collated and classified by a private corporate entity (which I am sure must be visualized and presented in a cool. pretty terrific manner through nice maps accompanying power points) ??? Why should the Government distribute a part of public money to do a job when it already maintains an entire department which could do the same job and for which public money is already apportioned??? Do the office of Registrar General of India lack required bureaucratic, technological, theoretical or conceptual expertise to carry out a mere feasibility report for MNIC??? If yes, then why does the GOI thinks that the same department can be entrusted with the responsibility to carrying out the actual census, distribution or maintainance for MNIC??? Anyways...we don't know the contents of this report. I wonder what were the premises or the lines of inquiry which this private corporate organization took, which many people believe was Tata's software arm, the TCS but one is not conclusively sure. Moreover, the important question is what were the parameters, the costing estimates and most importantly so what were the limitations of introducing the MNIC which this report might have suggested??? Warm regards Taha From anansi1 at earthlink.net Wed Jun 17 00:49:27 2009 From: anansi1 at earthlink.net (Paul D. Miller) Date: Tue, 16 Jun 2009 15:19:27 -0400 (GMT-04:00) Subject: [Reader-list] Naeem Mohaiemen on Iran - Bangladesh Message-ID: <11570563.1245179968263.JavaMail.root@mswamui-thinleaf.atl.sa.earthlink.net> The revolution will bypass your filters Graffiti on Iranian Cultural Centre, Dhaka. Photo: Naeem MohaiemenNaeem Mohaiemen "Tiananmen + Twitter = Tehran" - Facebook status line SOMETIME on June 12th, the official news is announced: "Landslide for Ahmadinejad". Then, just as quickly, other news starts coming out, louder, drowning out the state machine. Data analysis showing votes between Mousavi and Ahmadinejad, as announced in six waves, in a correlation ratio of 0.995, a statistical near-impossibility. Professor Mebane's analysis, showing 9 locations with abnormal outliers. Results that defy political alignments (Mousavi losing in Tehran, which is flashpoint for anti-Ahmadinejad vote), ethnic loyalties (Azeri candidate Mousavi losing in Azeri capital Tabriz, Lur candidate Mehdi Karoubilosing in Luristan) and demographic shifts (young, women, first-time voters). So far, all this is familiar. Election fraud stretches from Pakistan to Burma to our near and far, Southern and Northern neighbours. Sometimes outrage over stolen elections is large enough to topple the government and force a re-election (Bangladesh). But other times, protests fade as the government waits until protestors are exhausted (Mexico). June 13th to 16th, the attrition confrontation plays out differently. In 1968, protestors against the Vietnam War fought Chicago police and chanted at TV cameras "the whole world is watching". In 2009, the whole world is watching online, 24/7. The stage for Iranian activists are the streets, but also Twitter-Facebook-Flickr-Blogspot, and the censors can't stop any of it. As the Bangladesh government discovered after blocking YouTube, censorship isn't what it used to be. Just as we used proxy sites to get to YouTube (until our government gave up), Iranians are using anonymizers like Torproject.org. An Iranian tells The Independent: "The regime, can block Facebook today but they can't do it forever." >From the moment the Mousavi protestors hit the streets, Reddit, Digg, Flickr, LiveLeak, Facebook are flooded with links. Basij thugs beat protestors, and within minutes Youtube 's Mousavi1388 channel ("Iranian professionals and students") has the mobile phone video online. Nothing is outside the camera frame. On my news feed, I see a link to protestors' "appeal to the world" reflected on eight accounts. Then sixteen, then twenty. First Iranian friends, then larger circles -- shared activism spreads in concentric circles. A campaign convinces Facebook users to change their icons to green to show support. All surfaces are overwhelmed by this protest. With so much data pushing through pipes, aggregators are pulling feeds together to find things quickly. Google is sub-optimal in this moment, because it's searches are algorithm driven. Aggregation sites Demotix, Global Voices, Tehran Bureau, Memeorandum are all running Google-like summaries of protest news. These are more effective because they are personal, editorialised collections. Crowd-sourced, human links beat algorithm pulls. Dominating the net media is Twitter. 160 character burst messages sent from mobile phones, the twitterverse is most effective for instant information. Hash threads like #iranelection and #iran allow us to track anyone who sends messages with those tags. I look at the feed and it says: 12,138 updates since your last refresh. But my last refresh was a few minutes ago! The volume is so overwhelming that aggregators are taking the best of twitter and re-tweeting. Iran.twazzup.com, Tweetscan, Twitterfall, TwitPic, a family of "best of" tools. The Iranian state is getting desperate, and tries to throttle internet traffic, block SMS flow, scramble satellite TV feeds. But every few seconds there is a twitter giving new proxy addresses that can be accessed from inside Iran. Even with net speed down to a crawl, activists keep pushing information through. We will bypass all filters. One of the high-volume tags on twitter now, besides #iran, is #cnnfail-- analysing how global news channels' have been to slow to cover this breaking news. Marshall Kirkpatrick writes on ReadWriteWeb: "Twenty years ago CNN's coverage of Tienanmen Square made its reputation. If in twenty more years it has become consensus that real-time, online, crowdsourced media is the best place to keep up with current events, [Iran] could be an important part of that history unfolding." Technology channeled into productive, political, networked, flattening activist work. This was the idea of some early net enthusiasts, even though so much was lost in the last decade of corporate hype and takeover. The internet is continuing to be the equaliser, making a solo vlogger the equivalent of the state's Information Ministry. But the technology is only an empowering tool, the power is still from people. Iranian citizens inside the country and in the global diaspora. Polish journalist Ryszard Kapuscinski wrote a memoir of witnessing revolution: "The policeman's experience: If I shout at someone and raise my truncheon, he will first go numb with terror and then take to his heels. But this time everything turns out differently. The policeman shouts, but the man doesn't run. He just stands there, looking at the policeman. It's a cautious look, still tinged with fear, but at the same time tough and insolent. The man on the edge of the crowd...glances around and sees the same look on other faces. Like his, their faces are watchful, still a bit fearful, but already firm and unrelenting. Nobody runs though the policeman has gone on shouting; at last he stops. There is a moment of silence." Kapuscinski wrote this in Tehran. 1979. Naeem Mohaiemen works on art & technology projects. From pawan.durani at gmail.com Wed Jun 17 09:53:16 2009 From: pawan.durani at gmail.com (Pawan Durani) Date: Wed, 17 Jun 2009 09:53:16 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Shahidul Alam detained by Indian Border Security Force In-Reply-To: <3d5801c9ee8e$5c0d6c00$496a010a@mail2world.com> References: <3d5801c9ee8e$5c0d6c00$496a010a@mail2world.com> Message-ID: <6b79f1a70906162123g10766f8bk3511dd1487a7dd9f@mail.gmail.com> Hard to believe ..... On Tue, Jun 16, 2009 at 7:55 PM, Shun-Ling Chen wrote: > http://unheardvoice.net/blog/2009/06/16/shahidul-alam-detained-by-indian > -border-security-force/ > > Dr Shahidul Alam, well-known photographer, and founder Drik, was > detained by Indian Border Security Forces while working on the > Bangladesh side of the border on his Brahmaputra project. He called me > at 18:21 pm to tell me that the guards had asked him to come over, and > then detained him at Sahapara 21 IPP, across the border from Rowmari. > His two colleagues are on the Bangladeshi side of the border, and can't > get to him. > > Please contact Home and Foreign Ministry officials requesting that they > do all possible to get him released immediately. It is worth mentioning > that the Indian BSF have detained and killed many innocent Bangladeshis > in recent years, in the border areas. > > http://www.mediahelpingmedia.org/content/view/387/1/ > News - South Asia > By David Brewer > Tuesday, 16 June 2009 > > Reports from Bangladesh say that Shahidul Alam, the photo journalist, > blogger and founder of the Drik picture network has been detained by > Indian border security forces while working on the Bangladesh side of > the border. > > In a message to this site from Dhaka, Alam's partner says he was working > on a multimedia project about the Brahmaputra with two colleagues when > border guards took him awa > > There are now fears for Alam's safety and supporters are calling on the > international community to push for his release. > > The last message from Shahidul Alam came through at !8:21 on Tuesday 16 > June when he called home to say that border security guards had asked > him to come over to the Indian side of the border where they detained > him at Sahapara 21 IPP, across the border from Rowmari. > > His two colleagues are on the Bangladeshi side of the border, and can't > get to him. > > At the time Alam was working on the Bangladesh end of the river > Brahmaputra project. He had travelled to Kurigram with two Drik > colleagues to take photos, video and stills. > > Contact has been made with a number of local and international media > organisations and government officials, including the Indian High > Commission. > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > subscribe in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> From nc-agricowi at netcologne.de Mon Jun 15 12:40:10 2009 From: nc-agricowi at netcologne.de (netEX) Date: Mon, 15 Jun 2009 09:10:10 +0200 Subject: [Reader-list] =?iso-8859-1?q?=5BAnnouncements=5D_CologneOFF_V_-_c?= =?iso-8859-1?q?all_for_entries?= Message-ID: <20090615091010.DF2EDDCD.E4B88D06@192.168.0.3> Call for entries: Deadline: Tuesday, 1 September 2009 --------------------------- CologneOFF V - 5th edition of Cologne Online Film Festival http://coff.newmediafest.org is planned to be launched in November 2009 under the festival themes 1. Taboo 2. Violence ---------------------------------------------------- Entry ---------------------------------------------------- VideoChannel - video project environments http://videochannel.newmediafest.org invites artists and directors for submitting videos/films, i.e. narratives and documentations (max 15 min.) experimenting with new concepts of transforming artistic contents into moving images, new forms of representing und new technologies Deadline: 1 September 2009 All entry details and the submission form can be found on netEX - networked experience http://www.nmartproject.net/netex/?p=1030 ---------------------------------------------------- About CologneOFF ---------------------------------------------------- CologneOFF - Cologne Online Film Festival http://coff.newmediafest.org , founded in 2006 as a new type of mobile film & video festival taking place simultaneously online and physical space in cooperation with partner festivals, is directed by Wilfried Agricola de Cologne The first 4 festival editions CologneOFF I - "Identityscapes" - 2006 CologneOFF II - "Image vs Music" - 2006 CologneOFF III - "Toon! Toon! - art cartoons and animates narriatives" - 2007 Cologne IV - "Here We Are" - 2008 were presented between 2006 and 2009 in cooperation with festivals in India, The Netherlands Venezuela, Argentina, France Serbia, Spain, Poland, Belgium, Turkey, Greece, Mexico, Bosnia-Hercegovia and others More info on http://coff.newmediafest.org ------------------------------------------- CologneOFF, VideoChannel , VIP - VideoChannel Interview Project and VAD - Video Art Database are dedicated to art forms of film and video in the framework of [NewMediaArtProjectNetwork]:||cologne http://www.nmartproject.net . info [at] nmartproject.net ------------------------------------------- _______________________________________________ announcements mailing list announcements at sarai.net https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/announcements From kmvenuannur at gmail.com Tue Jun 16 10:14:39 2009 From: kmvenuannur at gmail.com (Venugopalan K M) Date: Tue, 16 Jun 2009 10:14:39 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Left Debacle In Kerala and Elsewhere Message-ID: <1f9180970906152144n47f111abgb64325e3a968565b@mail.gmail.com> I would suggest that in Kerala, it was not just the Lavlin case. The fundamental mistake occurred when the Left lost touch with the masses. The crudely self righteous sermons in favour of what they called 'Development' and the criminal insensitivity toward the plights of victims of a neo-liberal political agenda were never taken without a pinch of salt. This seems true not just of those directly affected by new forms of deprivation but also others, who expected sort of care for human rights and natural justice on such things esp from a Left set up. While these criticisms were totally ignored by the Party, the Kerala leadership( with the backing of the Polit Bureau) even rubbished them as a handiwork of some imagined 'bourgeois media syndicate'. Kerala saw an entire Party being mobilised to defend Pinarayi, in the context of clear accusation of huge misappropriation of public funds and charges of corruption (Lavline). Thousands of landless people, mainly dalits, occupying a big rubber estate land in Chengara (Pathanamthitta dist) demanding it to be distributed to them was seen by the CPI(M) less a land issue than a 'conspiracy' by (foreign funded) NGOs and psuedo intellectuals. Direct assaults were unleashed (ostensibly in the name of protecting the interests of rubber tapping workers unions, and by goondas masquerading as CITU activists) against poor dalits including women and children. An honourable negotiated settlement on the Chengara land struggle was never attempted and is still pending. By and large, the media has been sympathetic to this issue though the CPI(M) showed it as yet another proof of 'meadia conspiracy'. Perhaps many of us we could even visualize the worst- some thing like Nandigram developing. Apparently thanks to the intervention by an enlightened section within and outside the Left set up, that didn't happen. In relation to the electoral debacle of the CPI(M) and the Left, I like to quote a statement in an analysis by the CPI(ML) (Liberation): ''...The epicentre of the anti-CPI(M) political earthquake lies squarely in the Singur-Nandigram seismic zone where the CPI(M) has been punished for its arrogant and coercive attitude to the peasantry and the intelligentsia, for its ruthless attempt to implement the same economic policies that it claims to have been opposing all along.." Though development like Nandigram did not happen here, land related issues in many places where people face threats of imminent eviction and brutal state violence are still continuing in Kerala. These have to do with issues connected with anti poor ,neo-liberal agenda often aiding Corporate land grabbings. -- http://venukm.blogspot.com/ From iram at sarai.net Wed Jun 17 10:12:56 2009 From: iram at sarai.net (Iram Ghufran) Date: Wed, 17 Jun 2009 10:12:56 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Fwd: Announcing the Bengaluru Pride and Karnataka Queer Habba '09 Message-ID: <4A387450.2000308@sarai.net> Subject: Announcing the Bengaluru Pride and Karnataka Queer Habba '09 From: siddharth narrain Date: Mon, 15 Jun 2009 20:58:41 +0530 Bengaluru to Celebrate Queer Pride for the Second Time After last year’s successful and vibrant queer pride march, which saw over 600 people celebrating and affirming queer lives in Bengaluru alone, Karnataka is gearing up for its second edition christened Karnataka Queer Habba. This year we as individuals and organisations, under the banner of Campaign for Sex-workers and Sexual Minorities Rights (CSMR), have decided to extend the festivities to a week beginning with a cricket match on June 21st and culminating with the pride march on June 28th. Come celebrate along with us as Bangalore’s LGBTQ community paints the town pink on the 28th June 2009. Like last year, this time too the pride march will begin at National College, Basavanagudi at 2:00 p.m and go up to Puttanachetty Town Hall via Sajjan Rao Circle and Minerva Circle and will culminate with a series of speeches as we gather on the Town Hall steps. Actress and theatre personality Arundhati Nag will address the celebration at the end of the march. After the success of last year’s pride we have decided to host an even bigger event christened “Karnataka Queer Habba” this year. As a run up to this year’s Pride March we will be hosting a week of events across the city. The events will include: “Queering the Pitch”: Cricket Match * When : Sunday, June 21st, 10 a.m. to 5 p.m. * Where : RBANMS Play Ground, Gangadhar Chetty Road, Ulsoor. * Contact : Gurukiran 98803 65692 or Sunil 99450 90301 Dalit-Sexual Minorities Dialogue on Stigma and Discrimination * When : Monday, June 22nd, 11 a.m. to 4 p.m. * Where : Indian Social Institute (ISI), 24 Benson Road * Contact : Manohar 96322 23460 Release of Human Rights Watch Report - This Alien Legacy: The Origins of “Sodomy” Laws in British Colonialism - followed by a discussion “Laws that Terrorise: Threats to Indian Democracy” * When : Tuesday, June 23rd, 4 p.m. to 7 p.m. * Where : Institute of Agricultural Technologies (IAT), Queens Road. * Contact : Arvind 99800 10933 Pirat Dyke Film Screening of One in Ten and Desert Hearts * When : Wednesday, June 24th, 5:30 p.m. to 9 p.m. * Where : Swabhava Office, 4th Floor, No. 1., M.S. Plaza, 13th A Cross, 4th Main Road, Sampangiramnagar (opposite Sampangiramnagar Police Station) * Contact : Nitya 99164 82928 Public Discussion on Religion and Sexuality * When : Thursday, June 25th, 4:30 p.m. to 7:00 p.m. * Where : United Theological College (UTC), Millers Road * Contact : Shubha 92434 46105 Evening of Theatre and Dance Performance * When : Friday, June 26th, 4:30 p.m. to 8:00 p.m. * Where : St. Josephs College of Commerce auditorium * Contact : Sumati 98451 65143 Story Telling Sessions * When : Saturday, June 27th, 4 p.m. to 7 p.m. * Where : Cubbon Park * Contact : Deepak 93437 63497 Bengaluru Pride 2009 * When : Sunday, June 28th, 2:00 p.m. to 6:00 p.m. * Where : National College Basavanagudi to Puttanachetty Town Hall via Sajjan Rao Circle, Minerva Circle and J.C. Road * Contact : Siddharth 98450 01168 ; Nithin 98860 81269 or Umesh 98457 91850 Email: bengalurupride at gmail.com Website: www.bengalurupride.org From phadkeshilpa at gmail.com Wed Jun 17 10:17:31 2009 From: phadkeshilpa at gmail.com (Shilpa Phadke) Date: Wed, 17 Jun 2009 10:17:31 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Fwd: URBZ MASHUP: Tokyo, Istanbul, Mumbai In-Reply-To: <4A374FA9.4010500@urbanology.org> References: <4A374FA9.4010500@urbanology.org> Message-ID: ---------- Forwarded message ---------- From: Matias Sendoa Echanove Date: Tue, Jun 16, 2009 at 1:24 PM Subject: URBZ MASHUP: Tokyo, Istanbul, Mumbai Dear Friends, Typhooners and Mashup artists, Its time to emerge from virtual worlds, studios, classrooms and offices and converge to debate, ideate, create fictions, photo-collages, music and videos about cities and neighborhood life. Like the Urban Typhoon workshops in Tokyo (2006) and Mumbai (2008), the URBZ MASHUP workshops, too will provide an opportunity to explore a city, connect with local residents, artists, architects, designers and musicians. This workshop aims at unleashing global imagination and celebrating locality by producing photos, videos, interviews, drawings, renderings, writing (fiction & non-fiction), installations, performances in and about specific streets and places. The URBZ MASHUP is a seven day event comprising 5 days of workshop and 2 days of seminar + exhibition. It will be held in the following cities: Tokyo: July 1-5, 2009 Istanbul: August 2-9, 2009 Mumbai: Nov. 22-29, 2009 Rio: February 7-13, 2010 New York: April, 2010 Amsterdam: June, 2010 The output of the workshops will be exhibited physically and virtually at the end of the workshop. For more details please see the PDF document attached. Please forward this invitation to friends and colleagues. We hope that each and everyone of you can make it! The URBZ/Urban Typhoon Team www.urbz.net/mashup mashup at urbz.net From santhosh.kanipayur at gmail.com Wed Jun 17 10:18:21 2009 From: santhosh.kanipayur at gmail.com (Santhosh Kumar) Date: Wed, 17 Jun 2009 10:18:21 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Shahidul Alam detained by Indian Border Security Force In-Reply-To: <6b79f1a70906162123g10766f8bk3511dd1487a7dd9f@mail.gmail.com> References: <3d5801c9ee8e$5c0d6c00$496a010a@mail2world.com> <6b79f1a70906162123g10766f8bk3511dd1487a7dd9f@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <19d498870906162148r6ae27336l9ca19b8deb8464ec@mail.gmail.com> it is hard to believe that you will believe.... On Wed, Jun 17, 2009 at 9:53 AM, Pawan Durani wrote: > Hard to believe ..... > > On Tue, Jun 16, 2009 at 7:55 PM, Shun-Ling Chen >wrote: > > > http://unheardvoice.net/blog/2009/06/16/shahidul-alam-detained-by-indian > > -border-security-force/ > > > > Dr Shahidul Alam, well-known photographer, and founder Drik, was > > detained by Indian Border Security Forces while working on the > > Bangladesh side of the border on his Brahmaputra project. He called me > > at 18:21 pm to tell me that the guards had asked him to come over, and > > then detained him at Sahapara 21 IPP, across the border from Rowmari. > > His two colleagues are on the Bangladeshi side of the border, and can't > > get to him. > > > > Please contact Home and Foreign Ministry officials requesting that they > > do all possible to get him released immediately. It is worth mentioning > > that the Indian BSF have detained and killed many innocent Bangladeshis > > in recent years, in the border areas. > > > > http://www.mediahelpingmedia.org/content/view/387/1/ > > News - South Asia > > By David Brewer > > Tuesday, 16 June 2009 > > > > Reports from Bangladesh say that Shahidul Alam, the photo journalist, > > blogger and founder of the Drik picture network has been detained by > > Indian border security forces while working on the Bangladesh side of > > the border. > > > > In a message to this site from Dhaka, Alam's partner says he was working > > on a multimedia project about the Brahmaputra with two colleagues when > > border guards took him awa > > > > There are now fears for Alam's safety and supporters are calling on the > > international community to push for his release. > > > > The last message from Shahidul Alam came through at !8:21 on Tuesday 16 > > June when he called home to say that border security guards had asked > > him to come over to the Indian side of the border where they detained > > him at Sahapara 21 IPP, across the border from Rowmari. > > > > His two colleagues are on the Bangladeshi side of the border, and can't > > get to him. > > > > At the time Alam was working on the Bangladesh end of the river > > Brahmaputra project. He had travelled to Kurigram with two Drik > > colleagues to take photos, video and stills. > > > > Contact has been made with a number of local and international media > > organisations and government officials, including the Indian High > > Commission. > > _________________________________________ > > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > > Critiques & Collaborations > > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > > subscribe in the subject header. > > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > subscribe in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> > From c.anupam at gmail.com Wed Jun 17 11:16:23 2009 From: c.anupam at gmail.com (anupam chakravartty) Date: Wed, 17 Jun 2009 11:16:23 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Shahidul Alam detained by Indian Border Security Force In-Reply-To: <19d498870906162148r6ae27336l9ca19b8deb8464ec@mail.gmail.com> References: <3d5801c9ee8e$5c0d6c00$496a010a@mail2world.com> <6b79f1a70906162123g10766f8bk3511dd1487a7dd9f@mail.gmail.com> <19d498870906162148r6ae27336l9ca19b8deb8464ec@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <341380d00906162246u47d079bg99126cbc12fa6211@mail.gmail.com> Photographer Shahidul Alam spends 6hrs in BSF custody: http://bdnews24.com/details.php?id=87461&cid=2 http://www.indianexpress.com/news/Bangladeshi-photographer-held--crossing--Indo-Bangla-border/477648 Two versions of the same story. However, if as per the BSF officials are claiming that Alam crossed over in the Dhubri sector, which is also my home district, the Brahmaputra river is itself the border. during the floods immigrant bangladeshis in connivance of BSF and BDR enter India on boats carrying pineapples from across the border. the no man's land mentioned in both of the reports is actually river brahmaputra. thanks anupam On 6/17/09, Santhosh Kumar wrote: > > it is hard to believe that you will believe.... > > On Wed, Jun 17, 2009 at 9:53 AM, Pawan Durani >wrote: > > > Hard to believe ..... > > > > On Tue, Jun 16, 2009 at 7:55 PM, Shun-Ling Chen > >wrote: > > > > > > http://unheardvoice.net/blog/2009/06/16/shahidul-alam-detained-by-indian > > > -border-security-force/ > > > > > > Dr Shahidul Alam, well-known photographer, and founder Drik, was > > > detained by Indian Border Security Forces while working on the > > > Bangladesh side of the border on his Brahmaputra project. He called me > > > at 18:21 pm to tell me that the guards had asked him to come over, and > > > then detained him at Sahapara 21 IPP, across the border from Rowmari. > > > His two colleagues are on the Bangladeshi side of the border, and can't > > > get to him. > > > > > > Please contact Home and Foreign Ministry officials requesting that they > > > do all possible to get him released immediately. It is worth mentioning > > > that the Indian BSF have detained and killed many innocent Bangladeshis > > > in recent years, in the border areas. > > > > > > http://www.mediahelpingmedia.org/content/view/387/1/ > > > News - South Asia > > > By David Brewer > > > Tuesday, 16 June 2009 > > > > > > Reports from Bangladesh say that Shahidul Alam, the photo journalist, > > > blogger and founder of the Drik picture network has been detained by > > > Indian border security forces while working on the Bangladesh side of > > > the border. > > > > > > In a message to this site from Dhaka, Alam's partner says he was > working > > > on a multimedia project about the Brahmaputra with two colleagues when > > > border guards took him awa > > > > > > There are now fears for Alam's safety and supporters are calling on the > > > international community to push for his release. > > > > > > The last message from Shahidul Alam came through at !8:21 on Tuesday 16 > > > June when he called home to say that border security guards had asked > > > him to come over to the Indian side of the border where they detained > > > him at Sahapara 21 IPP, across the border from Rowmari. > > > > > > His two colleagues are on the Bangladeshi side of the border, and can't > > > get to him. > > > > > > At the time Alam was working on the Bangladesh end of the river > > > Brahmaputra project. He had travelled to Kurigram with two Drik > > > colleagues to take photos, video and stills. > > > > > > Contact has been made with a number of local and international media > > > organisations and government officials, including the Indian High > > > Commission. > > > _________________________________________ > > > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > > > Critiques & Collaborations > > > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > > > subscribe in the subject header. > > > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > > > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> > > _________________________________________ > > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > > Critiques & Collaborations > > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > > subscribe in the subject header. > > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> > > > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > subscribe in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> From jeebesh at sarai.net Wed Jun 17 11:58:36 2009 From: jeebesh at sarai.net (Jeebesh) Date: Wed, 17 Jun 2009 11:58:36 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] "Mass Incidents" Message-ID: Dear All, This is an fascinating account of the crisis in China. In 2007 around 90,000 riots and public disturbances was recorded. This was from police record. It shows a society in great turmoil and deep transformation. Since the identity based mobilizations is not strong in China, the material basis of many of the conflicts are much freely discussed than in India. Maybe we can learn something from here. warmly, jeebesh. (The following article is from Xinhuanet.com. Translated by E. Shih) http://chinadigitaltimes.net/2009/06/xinhua-improving-our-ability-to-react-to-mass-incidents-12/ 2009 will possibly be a year with an unusual concentration of mass incidents. In response to the new situation that social harmony and stability face in 2009, Outlook News Weekly has expressly invited three of our journalists who are on the frontlines, specialists on this issue, for their predictions and analysis. They believe that 2009 could be a year with many mass incidents. At the same time, heightened sensitivity and early planning, combined with innovative thinking and comprehensive mechanisms, could bring about a deepening of reform, creating new opportunities for social harmony. (Huang Huo, Xinhua News Chief at the Chongqing bureau; Guo Bensheng, Xinhua News Editorial Board Member at the Jiangsu bureau; Zhong Yuming, Xinhua News Assistant Editor-in-Chief at the Guangdong bureau) Are mass incidents entering a period of high concentration? Huang Huo: Without question, we’ve already entered a period of highly concentrated mass incidents. Furthermore, 2009 may also be the year that Chinese society will face many contradictions and conflicts in a way that will test the governance at every level of Party government. At the moment, the most sensitive problem is that of working to stop the financial tsunami’s metamorphosis from economic pressure to a social crisis. The focus has been on maintaining economic growth, guaranteeing employment, protecting the people’s livelihood and maintaining stability. The effects of the financial crisis on our country are becoming increasingly severe. Many small to medium size businesses on the coast are stopping production or closing down altogether. Large numbers of peasants are returning to rural areas, increasing employment pressures there. At the same time, the number of next year’s college graduates added to the number of this year’s unemployed graduates will be over 7 million. Even assuming the country can maintain 8 percent growth in 2009, there would only be 8 million jobs created. What’s more, 2008 was the last year that China’s state-owned enterprises went into strategic bankruptcy, unavoidably leading to the resignation or unemployment of more workers than the year before. As employment difficulties and a high unemployment rate cause crises for individual livelihood, social contradictions will likely to come into the foreground. Because of this, the most sensitive problem at the moment is that of “employment.” That problem can be further divided into two groups: the “peasant” problem and the “college graduate” problem. To the peasant migrant workers, the city has become home—especially for the “post-80s” second-generation migrants. Their salary expectations are higher than those of their parents, but their tolerance level is lower and their will to stay in the city is much stronger. According to a survey in Chongqing, among those counties which have a large population of exported contract workers, nearly 80 percent of peasants who return to their rural homes express unwillingness to stay in the villages and say they are willing to stay in the city even if they cannot find employment. If large numbers of peasant workers cannot find work and have no income for over half a year in 2009, this will result in a floating urban population, and the problem will become much worse. The employment of college graduates is thus not only central to the employment issue, but also to the question of social fairness. Education is the main channel of “upward” social mobility for those in the lower levels of society. For those in the lower levels, despair can be staved off as long as they have hope for their children. If large numbers of average families discover that their costly investment in their children’s education is only repaid with “unemployment upon graduation, it could easily affect social harmony. The sensitive periods of 2009 are the month immediately following Chinese New Year, during peasants leave home in large numbers to find work; and in July, directly before and after college students graduate. What are the new and unique characteristics of current mass incidents? Huang Huo: Currently, systemic change, structural adjustment and social reform have touched, in a broad sense, the fields of economics, politics and culture among others; they have also touched, on a deeper level, the concrete economic interests of the people. Considering mass incidents against this greater context, we find that a good majority of the incidents occur because the masses are protecting personal economic interest. Interest groups have spontaneously organized, grabbing government attention through collective action and thereby obtaining the government’s validation and protection for personal interests. As a result, mass incidents reflect a continuity with the past in their usage of “contradictions among the people” as a rationale, and must avoid a willful descent into “politicization.” Party officials must pay close attention to mass incidents without making mountains out of molehills and seeing them as colossal “political incidents.” Treating these incidents as anti-government actions and subsequently suppressing them with strong force would be the precise method of exacerbating problems, and would have the direct result of aggravating the opposition between officials and civilians. The common characteristics of current mass incidents can be summarized as follows: social contradictions have already formed certain foundations of society and the masses, creating a powder keg ready to explode at the first hint of a flame. Conflicts escalate extremely rapidly; confrontation is intense; the destruction to society is sizable; appropriate management is difficult. At the same time, behind the seemingly random “sparks,” there is always a pile of “tinder.” This causes small incidents to escalate quickly, evolving into a large- scale, intense conflict. This shows that in a period of constant change in greater social interest and personal interests, a social crisis can be instigated by a contagion of dissatisfaction among the people. Even a street brawl could turn into an irrational mass venting that engulfs the whole city. Recently, mass incidents have had one other new characteristic. The “PX” incident in Xiamen and the Chongqing rental car strike, among others, are “non-traditional mass incidents.” In contrast to past instances of mass incidents, in which hotheaded masses rioted and looted, and intense violent conflict occurred between the police and the civilians, these protesters express their demands and fight for personal interests through a “non-violent non-cooperative” method. This has to do with social improvement, but it is also dependent on the tolerance and political wisdom of local government. Both sides are conscious of the fact that negotiation, compromise and peaceful methods are much less costly solutions than violence. How can we find the boundaries of propriety in managing mass incidents? Huang Huo: In the past few years, a contagion of “maladjustment” to mass incidents has been plaguing local governments. Examples of bad judgment and inappropriate handling are ubiquitous. Yet recently, local government’s standards for handling problems have improved with regards to mass incidents. Whether it’s the rationale behind the handling of the problem or the methods themselves, there has been a certain amount of change, demonstrating an “aptitude for learning.” For example, on the level of open access to information and guidance of public opinion, the government had always remained silent in the past. This led to the propagation of rumors and false news. Now, the local governments distribute information much more quickly, transmitting their own voice, as in the “Weng’an Incident” and the “Yunnan Menglian Incident.” Moreover, these local governments have gained valuable references on civilian livelihood and conflict from the handling of such cases as the “Chongqing Taxi Driver Strike” through the information age. Although they have improved to a certain extent, some localities are still learning many lessons in how not to handle mass incidents. The lesson that stands out is that of local governments have not fully understood their duties, and have not held strictly to a principle of “unbiased government” in the midst of market capitalist struggle. On the contrary, they bound themselves to powerful interest groups. They transformed the motto of “ruling for the people” into “serving the boss” and “serving capital.” They then went as far as to use heavy- handed measures against civilians during the mass incidents. The “Yunnan Menglian Incident” is a classic case. Another lesson involves cadres being willing to speak the truth and to face contradictions. This requires a systematic acculturation and evaluation of cadres. The central government has admitted that this is a “period of outstanding contradictions;” but on the way from implementation to concrete acts of execution, many local governments also ask the lower levels to “remain incident free” and to avoid mass incidents. Having no appeals to high-level authorities, no one travelling to Beijing to make demands: this is called “stability.” It has also become an important measure of the cadre’s performance and promotion record. Because of this, the lower level officials do not dare reveal problems to their superiors or speak the truth. Instead, they do all in their power to suppress negative information and move mountains to obstruct those who would make appeals to the central government. Only when the problem becomes too big do they report to their superiors. If “stability” becomes a kind of “social control,” then in terms of practical execution it becomes a matter of: “keeping things under control is stability, pacification is ability, having no incidents is real skill, and compromise is harmony.” This naturally causes mass incidents to follow the expansive pattern of “small to big, big to explosive.” Zhong Yuming: Local governments need to be particularly careful to avoid “drinking poison to quench thirst”: In other words, in the name of quickly achieving peace, they will pay off whoever needs to be paid off and release whomever it is demanded they release. The letter and procedure of the law are thrown to the four winds. This results in the amelioration process of mass incidents turning into “anti-legalization precedents.” Currently, there is a tacit “gold standard” for some local governments dealing with mass incidents: to disperse the crowds as quickly as possible. They do not query too deeply into the issue of whether or not the methods are legal, or what effects they might have on social management thereafter. In order to “quench their thirst” quickly, some local governments do not follow legal procedures in dealing with mass incidents in the name of efficiency. With this kind of temptation, the crowds are more likely to “follow justification” instead of “following the law”: if my interests have suffered, then I have “justification” and I am allowed to create havoc as I please. The government must immediately satisfy my demands. The more quickly the government satisfies mass demands, the more irritable the public psychology becomes. It becomes a mentality of expecting near “instant gratification.” The people worry that as soon as the gathered crowd disperses and the media attention moves to its next target, the government will simply become indifferent. Even matters such as the reform of rules concerning taxis and a crackdown on illegal cars, matters that require a colossal investment of human and material resources, there is an expectation for immediate effectiveness. When certain medical accidents set off a mass incident, there are objective limitations to the method of solving of the case. Sometimes exams take half a month to run; but the media will often express dissatisfaction with words such as: “It’s been four days since the incident occurred, and the case has still had no developments.” In order to quickly “quench the thirst,” the “rich governments” spend money to buy the peace, forcing “poor governments” and enterprises to face difficulties. For example, when the Hejun toy factory in Zhangmutou township, Dongguan closed down, the boss ran away. The local government immediately promised to step up and pay the entirety of the workers’ salary. The workers were extremely satisfied, and immediately demanded compensation beyond the owed salary. Zhangmutou happily paid, and the media reported on it shamelessly. Before this, the Hejun toy factory had built a second factory in the Guangdongshan zone, and it also closed down. While the “example” of Dongguan sat before the workers’ eyes, the Shan zone government was not as well- endowed as Dongguan and was filled with worry. In order to “quench the thirst” quickly, they use violence against mass incidents, and some locales turn a blind eye to violations of relevant national laws. The state departments’s “Letters and Visits Decree” has lost legitimacy. The stipulation of “recommending five representatives” has been ignored. Some local police departments would detain a number of the violent participants, and the crowd would immediately add “release the prisoners!” to its “demands,” declaring that “we won’t leave until you release the prisoners!” As a result, in order to avoid “not having a good exit,” the police departments are hesitant even in the matter of detaining violent actors. In disputes over state-expropriated land, some people obstruct construction and destroy equipment, or attack government and construction workers. We don’t hear often of these people being subjected to the law. From rajen786uppinangady at gmail.com Wed Jun 17 12:35:06 2009 From: rajen786uppinangady at gmail.com (Rajendra Bhat Uppinangadi) Date: Wed, 17 Jun 2009 12:35:06 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Shahidul Alam detained by Indian Border Security Force In-Reply-To: <341380d00906162246u47d079bg99126cbc12fa6211@mail.gmail.com> References: <3d5801c9ee8e$5c0d6c00$496a010a@mail2world.com> <6b79f1a70906162123g10766f8bk3511dd1487a7dd9f@mail.gmail.com> <19d498870906162148r6ae27336l9ca19b8deb8464ec@mail.gmail.com> <341380d00906162246u47d079bg99126cbc12fa6211@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <7271ec560906170005u55065435wabec85b8d6a2ad76@mail.gmail.com> Dear All, one issue that is concerning me is, are men and women in media above laws.? If they are doing any project, they can violate laws of the land.? Is media responsible to citizens of the nation in which they are operating.? Or they are responsible only to media barons and the share holders of the media corporate to share the "profits" of such projects.? As the humans work in different walks of life, do they become above laws if they are say, politicians, judicial appointees and executives, or are they appointed to serve the citizens in best possible interests of the citizens.? Now, as to current matter ubder discussion, it is to be noted that if the border force do their duties sincerely, no under age married girls can come in to India and work as dance bar girls, sex workers in as far as south India, particularly in Chennai, Bangalore, and Hyderabad. It is true that they have practically no opportunities to earn a living in their bangaldesh, but the sad issue is many of these married girls are in southern India,, recently Bangalore police with Chennai counter parts ripped open the network of this illegal trade of human traffick and sex trade. Local news network channel 9 and Udaya TV and also Suvarna tv covered the issue comprehensively. Even with recession and lesser salaries, the stressed minds are seeking extra carnal pleasures ? As to this man of media, why he has not taken necessary authorisation for the project work.? Is he under cover operative for any group.? If Dr. Binayak Sen can be held captive in detention for the good work he has had on record, is not above laws, which ofcourse is obnxious, are men in media above laws.? Amusingly, the fate of Prajna Thakur and 12 others who are under detention for months now without any shred of proof has no defenders of human rights talking or them.! None is concerned about these detentions of Prajna Thakur.? Perceptions of a few seem to be taking over the rights and wrongs in society, when it comes to human rights of the humans.? Regards, Rajen. On Wed, Jun 17, 2009 at 11:16 AM, anupam chakravartty wrote: > Photographer Shahidul Alam spends 6hrs in BSF custody: > > http://bdnews24.com/details.php?id=87461&cid=2 > > > http://www.indianexpress.com/news/Bangladeshi-photographer-held--crossing--Indo-Bangla-border/477648 > > Two versions of the same story. However, if as per the BSF officials are > claiming that Alam crossed over in the Dhubri sector, which is also my home > district, the Brahmaputra river is itself the border. during the floods > immigrant bangladeshis in connivance of BSF and BDR enter India on boats > carrying pineapples from across the border. the no man's land mentioned in > both of the reports is actually river brahmaputra. > > thanks anupam > > > On 6/17/09, Santhosh Kumar wrote: > > > > it is hard to believe that you will believe.... > > > > On Wed, Jun 17, 2009 at 9:53 AM, Pawan Durani > >wrote: > > > > > Hard to believe ..... > > > > > > On Tue, Jun 16, 2009 at 7:55 PM, Shun-Ling Chen > > >wrote: > > > > > > > > > http://unheardvoice.net/blog/2009/06/16/shahidul-alam-detained-by-indian > > > > -border-security-force/ > > > > > > > > Dr Shahidul Alam, well-known photographer, and founder Drik, was > > > > detained by Indian Border Security Forces while working on the > > > > Bangladesh side of the border on his Brahmaputra project. He called > me > > > > at 18:21 pm to tell me that the guards had asked him to come over, > and > > > > then detained him at Sahapara 21 IPP, across the border from Rowmari. > > > > His two colleagues are on the Bangladeshi side of the border, and > can't > > > > get to him. > > > > > > > > Please contact Home and Foreign Ministry officials requesting that > they > > > > do all possible to get him released immediately. It is worth > mentioning > > > > that the Indian BSF have detained and killed many innocent > Bangladeshis > > > > in recent years, in the border areas. > > > > > > > > http://www.mediahelpingmedia.org/content/view/387/1/ > > > > News - South Asia > > > > By David Brewer > > > > Tuesday, 16 June 2009 > > > > > > > > Reports from Bangladesh say that Shahidul Alam, the photo journalist, > > > > blogger and founder of the Drik picture network has been detained by > > > > Indian border security forces while working on the Bangladesh side of > > > > the border. > > > > > > > > In a message to this site from Dhaka, Alam's partner says he was > > working > > > > on a multimedia project about the Brahmaputra with two colleagues > when > > > > border guards took him awa > > > > > > > > There are now fears for Alam's safety and supporters are calling on > the > > > > international community to push for his release. > > > > > > > > The last message from Shahidul Alam came through at !8:21 on Tuesday > 16 > > > > June when he called home to say that border security guards had asked > > > > him to come over to the Indian side of the border where they detained > > > > him at Sahapara 21 IPP, across the border from Rowmari. > > > > > > > > His two colleagues are on the Bangladeshi side of the border, and > can't > > > > get to him. > > > > > > > > At the time Alam was working on the Bangladesh end of the river > > > > Brahmaputra project. He had travelled to Kurigram with two Drik > > > > colleagues to take photos, video and stills. > > > > > > > > Contact has been made with a number of local and international media > > > > organisations and government officials, including the Indian High > > > > Commission. > > > > _________________________________________ > > > > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > > > > Critiques & Collaborations > > > > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > > > > subscribe in the subject header. > > > > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > > > > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> > > > _________________________________________ > > > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > > > Critiques & Collaborations > > > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > > > subscribe in the subject header. > > > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > > > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> > > > > > _________________________________________ > > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > > Critiques & Collaborations > > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > > subscribe in the subject header. > > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > subscribe in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> > -- Rajen. From akmalik45 at yahoo.com Wed Jun 17 13:42:29 2009 From: akmalik45 at yahoo.com (A.K. Malik) Date: Wed, 17 Jun 2009 01:12:29 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Reader-list] Shahidul Alam detained by Indian Border Security Force Message-ID: <607253.28487.qm@web39108.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Dear Rajenji, It is our perceptions which decide who is guilty and who is innocent. The entire para-military forces are dubbed rapists in Kashmir for a few stray incidents.It seems some of us are more concerned about Human Rights of Pakistanis,Bangladeshis than of our own countrymen. I do not know the complete facts of the case. If the BSF has really crossed over to Bangladesh and detained Shahidul Alam, then it is of concern. On the other hand if he has illegally crossed over to our side and then was detained, why anyone should bother unless it has been innocuous or beyond the control of the person concerned. Labelling the Border forces killers of innocent people without any proof is really doing injustice to those who are protecting our lives at the cost of their own lives. Regards, (A.K.MALIK) --- On Wed, 6/17/09, Rajendra Bhat Uppinangadi wrote: > From: Rajendra Bhat Uppinangadi > Subject: Re: [Reader-list] Shahidul Alam detained by Indian Border Security Force > To: "anupam chakravartty" > Cc: "sarai list" > Date: Wednesday, June 17, 2009, 12:35 PM > Dear All, one issue that is > concerning me is, are men and women in media > above laws.? If they are doing any project, they can > violate laws of the > land.? Is media responsible to citizens of the nation in > which they are > operating.? Or they are responsible only to media barons > and the share > holders of the media corporate to share the "profits" of > such projects.? As > the humans work in different walks of life, do they become > above laws if > they are say, politicians, judicial appointees and > executives, or are they > appointed to serve the citizens in best possible interests > of the citizens.? > >   Now, as to current matter ubder discussion, it is to > be noted that if the > border force do their duties sincerely, no under age > married girls can come > in to India and work as dance bar girls, sex workers in as > far as south > India, particularly in Chennai, Bangalore, and Hyderabad. > It is true that > they have practically no opportunities to earn a living in > their bangaldesh, > but the sad issue is many of these married girls are in > southern India,, > recently Bangalore police with Chennai counter parts ripped > open the network > of this illegal trade of human traffick and sex trade. > Local news network > channel 9 and Udaya TV and also Suvarna tv covered the > issue > comprehensively. Even with recession and lesser salaries, > the stressed minds > are seeking extra carnal pleasures ? > > As to this man of media, why he has not taken necessary > authorisation for > the project work.? Is he under cover operative for any > group.? If Dr. > Binayak Sen can be held captive in detention for the good > work he has had on > record, is not above laws, which ofcourse is obnxious, are > men in media > above laws.? > >   Amusingly, the fate of Prajna Thakur and 12 others > who are under detention > for months now without any shred of proof has no defenders > of human rights > talking or them.! None is concerned about these detentions > of Prajna > Thakur.? Perceptions of a few seem to be taking over the > rights and wrongs > in society, when it comes to human rights of the humans.? > >   Regards, > >    Rajen. > > On Wed, Jun 17, 2009 at 11:16 AM, anupam chakravartty > wrote: > > > Photographer Shahidul Alam spends 6hrs in BSF > custody: > > > > http://bdnews24.com/details.php?id=87461&cid=2 > > > > > > http://www.indianexpress.com/news/Bangladeshi-photographer-held--crossing--Indo-Bangla-border/477648 > > > > Two versions of the same story. However, if as per the > BSF officials are > > claiming that Alam crossed over in the Dhubri sector, > which is also my home > > district, the Brahmaputra river is itself the border. > during the floods > > immigrant bangladeshis in connivance of BSF and BDR > enter India on boats > > carrying pineapples from across the border. the no > man's land mentioned in > > both of the reports is actually river brahmaputra. > > > > thanks anupam > > > > > > On 6/17/09, Santhosh Kumar > wrote: > > > > > > it is hard to believe that you will believe.... > > > > > > On Wed, Jun 17, 2009 at 9:53 AM, Pawan Durani > > > >wrote: > > > > > > > Hard to believe ..... > > > > > > > > On Tue, Jun 16, 2009 at 7:55 PM, Shun-Ling > Chen > > > >wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > http://unheardvoice.net/blog/2009/06/16/shahidul-alam-detained-by-indian > > > > > -border-security-force/ > > > > > > > > > > Dr Shahidul Alam, well-known > photographer, and founder Drik, was > > > > > detained by Indian Border Security > Forces while working on the > > > > > Bangladesh side of the border on his > Brahmaputra project. He called > > me > > > > > at 18:21 pm to tell me that the guards > had asked him to come over, > > and > > > > > then detained him at Sahapara 21 IPP, > across the border from Rowmari. > > > > > His two colleagues are on the > Bangladeshi side of the border, and > > can't > > > > > get to him. > > > > > > > > > > Please contact Home and Foreign > Ministry officials requesting that > > they > > > > > do all possible to get him released > immediately. It is worth > > mentioning > > > > > that the Indian BSF have detained and > killed many innocent > > Bangladeshis > > > > > in recent years, in the border areas. > > > > > > > > > > http://www.mediahelpingmedia.org/content/view/387/1/ > > > > > News - South Asia > > > > > By David Brewer > > > > > Tuesday, 16 June 2009 > > > > > > > > > > Reports from Bangladesh say that > Shahidul Alam, the photo journalist, > > > > > blogger and founder of the Drik picture > network has been detained by > > > > > Indian border security forces while > working on the Bangladesh side of > > > > > the border. > > > > > > > > > > In a message to this site from Dhaka, > Alam's partner says he was > > > working > > > > > on a multimedia project about the > Brahmaputra with two colleagues > > when > > > > > border guards took him awa > > > > > > > > > > There are now fears for Alam's safety > and supporters are calling on > > the > > > > > international community to push for his > release. > > > > > > > > > > The last message from Shahidul Alam > came through at !8:21 on Tuesday > > 16 > > > > > June when he called home to say that > border security guards had asked > > > > > him to come over to the Indian side of > the border where they detained > > > > > him at Sahapara 21 IPP, across the > border from Rowmari. > > > > > > > > > > His two colleagues are on the > Bangladeshi side of the border, and > > can't > > > > > get to him. > > > > > > > > > > At the time Alam was working on the > Bangladesh end of the river > > > > > Brahmaputra project. He had travelled > to Kurigram with two Drik > > > > > colleagues to take photos, video and > stills. > > > > > > > > > > Contact has been made with a number of > local and international media > > > > > organisations and government officials, > including the Indian High > > > > > Commission. > > > > > > _________________________________________ > > > > > reader-list: an open discussion list on > media and the city. > > > > > Critiques & Collaborations > > > > > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net > with > > > > > subscribe in the subject header. > > > > > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > > > > > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> > > > > _________________________________________ > > > > reader-list: an open discussion list on > media and the city. > > > > Critiques & Collaborations > > > > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net > with > > > > subscribe in the subject header. > > > > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > > > > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> > > > > > > > _________________________________________ > > > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and > the city. > > > Critiques & Collaborations > > > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net > with > > > subscribe in the subject header. > > > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > > > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> > > _________________________________________ > > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the > city. > > Critiques & Collaborations > > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net > with > > subscribe in the subject header. > > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> > > > > > > -- > Rajen. > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the > city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net > with subscribe in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> From kshmendra2005 at yahoo.com Wed Jun 17 15:18:02 2009 From: kshmendra2005 at yahoo.com (Kshmendra Kaul) Date: Wed, 17 Jun 2009 02:48:02 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Reader-list] "Status of Indian and Pakistani army in Jammu and Kashmir" - Dr Shabir Choudhry Message-ID: <848272.53193.qm@web57204.mail.re3.yahoo.com>   Tuesday, 16 June 2009 Status of Indian and Pakistani army in Jammu and Kashmir Status of Indian and Pakistani army in Jammu and Kashmir Dr Shabir Choudhry 16 June 2009 Dr Nazir Gilani is among a few Kashmiris who regularly write on Kashmir and human rights abuse. He, at times, comes out with new phrases, which provide a new dimension to debates. In response to my article, ‘Another own goal’, he made an interesting remark: ‘India is not an occupier in Kashmir. She is there as the consequence of a provisional agreement with the Government of Kashmir. The jurisprudence of this provisional agreement is accepted by the Government of Pakistan in all her bilateral agreements with the Government of India, namely, Tashkent Accord and Shimla Accord’. This observation gave a new dimension to the debate and requires further consideration. The Indian army came to Jammu and Kashmir not as army of invasion; rather they came on request of the Maharaja of Jammu and Kashmir. On 22 October 1947 some parts of the State were invaded by unruly tribal warriors, killing and pillaging on their way to Srinagar, the Maharaja’s forces were not able to defend the State territory. The Maharaja had two choices: either let these tribesmen run over the country and destroy everything or seek help from India – he chose the later. The Maharaja could not have got help from the government of Pakistan as they betrayed his trust; and despite the Standstill Agreement with the Maharaja, they stopped all the necessary supplies to the State and managed the tribal invasion to punish the Maharaja for not yielding to the demands of the Pakistani rulers who wanted State’s accession to Pakistan. The Maharaja requested help from India, and signed an accession treaty on 26th October 1947, which was ‘provisionally’ accepted by the government of India. In line with the request of the Maharaja the Indian forces landed in Srinagar on 27th October 1947. Their primary purpose was to save the State from the invaders; and protect ‘life’, ‘liberty’ and ‘property’. So Dr Nazir Gilani’s contention is that the Indian army did not invade the State, rather they went there on the request of the Ruler of Jammu and Kashmir, and went there to protect the state from invasion. They had a specific role to perform in the State. What they did there, wrong as it might be, does not change the legal position of the army’s presence. In reply to some of the criticism, in my next article - It is a matter of perspective- I said: ‘He (Dr Nazir Gilani) is entitled to express his opinion and defend it. Others have a right to accept it, remain silent or challenge it. Question, however, is if the Indian army, using Dr Nazir Gilani’s phrase, is not ‘an occupying force’ then logically it is a ‘legal force’. If that is so, then what is the problem? Why people of Kashmir are complaining and protesting? I don’t know how many takers there will be for this argument in Jammu and Kashmir, and especially on the Indian side of the LOC. Also I don’t know how many people will direct their wisdom and experience to elaborate this point to the satisfaction of those who have serious grievances. Another friend and a colleague in struggle, Mumtaz Khan, also cared to read that article and made the following comments: ‘The other point that didn’t fit into nationalistic profile of Shabir Sahib when he specifically sought opinion of Valley people on the observations of Gilani Sahib that is very much against the very essence of nationalism especially what Shabir Sahib believe in entire state Jammu and Kashmir as single entity but trying to localize it which opponent forces normally practice to keep this division alive. I do not mean to doubt his intentions but words normally create such impression’. Perhaps my friend didn’t read carefully to note that I never used the word ‘Valley’ in that paragraph. I said: ‘I don’t know how many takers there will be for this argument in Jammu and Kashmir, and especially on the Indian side of the LOC’. Jammu and Kashmir does not mean the ‘Valley’. Similarly the phrase ‘on the Indian side of the LOC’ does not stand for the ‘Valley’. Anyhow the fact is that many parts of the State have no complaints from the presence of the Indian army. For example, people of Gilgit and Baltistan have no problem with the Indian army. I have spoken to some leaders from Gilgit and Baltistan on the topic; they clearly have no problem from the Indian army. However their problem is related to the presence of the Pakistan army in Gilgit and Baltistan and many regard it as an army of occupation. Similarly people of Ladakh have no problem with the presence of the Indian army in Jammu and Kashmir. I have spoken to many people from Jammu, and they seem to have no serious issue with the presence of the Indian army. However they had a serious problem with the presence of militants, many of them non Kashmiris, in parts of the Jammu region and wanted the Indian army to root them out. Majority of people of Pakistani Administered Kashmir criticise what their brothers and sisters have to endure in the Valley, but have no direct problem with the presence of the Indian army (cross border skirmishes and firing created problems for the people, but that generally happened when there was infiltration taking place or when there was tension on the LOC which is manned by the Pakistan army from the other side). That leaves us with the Valley of Kashmir, main part of the State in many ways; and which has faced wrath of the Indian army since 1989. The Indian army’s relationship with the Valley has been different from other areas of the State; hence majority of the people, especially in 1990s regarded the Indian army as ‘army of occupation’. I was referring to this fact rather than undermining struggle for unification and independence of the State, which has always been close to my heart. After this explanation it would be pertinent to analyse the legal status of the Pakistani army in some parts of the State. Unlike the Indian army, the Pakistani army was never invited by a Ruler or any legitimate authority to enter the territory of the State of Jammu and Kashmir. Under terms of the Standstill Agreement, Pakistan was responsible for providing certain non military services which the government of the Punjab provided during the British Raj. But despite the Standstill Agreement Pakistani government managed a ‘Tribal invasion’ to acquire Jammu and Kashmir. Unofficially Pakistani army and civilians entered the state territory to support and direct the tribal invasion. Officially Pakistani troops entered the State territory in April 1948, not on the request of Kashmiris, but to safeguard their strategic and other national interests. The UN Security Council took a serious notice of illegal entry of the Pakistani troops in the State territory; and the UNCIP Resolution of 13 August 1948 explains this situation in the following words: A. (l) As the presence of troops of Pakistan in the territory of the State of Jammu and Kashmir constitutes a material change in the situation since it was represented by the Government of Pakistan before the Security Council, the Government of Pakistan agrees to withdraw its troops from that State. (2) The Government of Pakistan will use its best endeavor to secure the withdrawal from the State of Jammu and Kashmir of tribesmen and Pakistan nationals not normally resident therein who have entered the State for the purpose of fighting. I hope this explanation will help readers to understand legal status of both armies at the time of their entry in to the State territory. Their presence and role in the respective parts is subject of much controversy and resentment, but that is a separate topic. Writer is a Spokesman of Kashmir National Party, political analyst and author of many books and booklets. Also he is Director Institute of Kashmir Affairs. Email:drshabirchoudhry at gmail.com To view other articles see my blog: www.drshabirchoudhry.blogspot.com   http://drshabirchoudhry.blogspot.com/2009/06/status-of-indian-and-pakistani-army-in.html       From pawan.durani at gmail.com Wed Jun 17 15:34:00 2009 From: pawan.durani at gmail.com (Pawan Durani) Date: Wed, 17 Jun 2009 15:34:00 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Who killed Reshma Jan ? Message-ID: <6b79f1a70906170304v62692eeeiffd8f998df340f5@mail.gmail.com> The shameless terrorists have targetted yet another female in Kashmir . Since last 20 years , Pakistan backed Islamic terrorists have been targetting inncocents . Reshma , a mother of three was killed ? Wonder if this is the way towards Azadi ! I can guess why the bearded director is quite thhis time....... http://www.risingkashmir.com/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=13952 Sopore, June 16: A woman was shot dead in North Kashmir’s Sopore area on Tuesday evening. Police said the incident happened at around 9:30 pm at Model Town B Sopore. “The unidentified gunmen barged into the house of one Reshma Jan and opened indiscriminate fire at them,” official said. Police said Reshma Jan was critically injured and subsequently shifted to Sub District Hospital Sopore. “She succumbed at the hospital,” official said. Resham Jan, 45, was working as PR in UCO Bank, Sopore. She is survived by three daughters. “One of her daughter is in police,” a family relative said. Police said they have filed an FIR and launched investigations. From kshmendra2005 at yahoo.com Wed Jun 17 15:37:32 2009 From: kshmendra2005 at yahoo.com (Kshmendra Kaul) Date: Wed, 17 Jun 2009 03:07:32 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Reader-list] Shahidul Alam detained by Indian Border Security Force Message-ID: <301309.39540.qm@web57202.mail.re3.yahoo.com> Dear Anupam   The latest is that Shahidul Alam after being released by the Indian BSF was subsequently arrested by the Bangladeshi BDR.   Kshmendra   --- On Wed, 6/17/09, anupam chakravartty wrote: From: anupam chakravartty Subject: Re: [Reader-list] Shahidul Alam detained by Indian Border Security Force To: "sarai list" Date: Wednesday, June 17, 2009, 11:16 AM Photographer Shahidul Alam spends 6hrs in BSF custody: http://bdnews24.com/details.php?id=87461&cid=2 http://www.indianexpress.com/news/Bangladeshi-photographer-held--crossing--Indo-Bangla-border/477648 Two versions of the same story. However, if as per the BSF officials are claiming that Alam crossed over in the Dhubri sector, which is also my home district, the Brahmaputra river is itself the border. during the floods immigrant bangladeshis in connivance of BSF and BDR enter India on boats carrying pineapples from across the border. the no man's land mentioned in both of the reports is actually river brahmaputra. thanks anupam On 6/17/09, Santhosh Kumar wrote: > > it is hard to believe that you will believe.... > > On Wed, Jun 17, 2009 at 9:53 AM, Pawan Durani >wrote: > > > Hard to believe ..... > > > > On Tue, Jun 16, 2009 at 7:55 PM, Shun-Ling Chen > >wrote: > > > > > > http://unheardvoice.net/blog/2009/06/16/shahidul-alam-detained-by-indian > > > -border-security-force/ > > > > > > Dr Shahidul Alam, well-known photographer, and founder Drik, was > > > detained by Indian Border Security Forces while working on the > > > Bangladesh side of the border on his Brahmaputra project. He called me > > > at 18:21 pm to tell me that the guards had asked him to come over, and > > > then detained him at Sahapara 21 IPP, across the border from Rowmari. > > > His two colleagues are on the Bangladeshi side of the border, and can't > > > get to him. > > > > > > Please contact Home and Foreign Ministry officials requesting that they > > > do all possible to get him released immediately. It is worth mentioning > > > that the Indian BSF have detained and killed many innocent Bangladeshis > > > in recent years, in the border areas. > > > > > > http://www.mediahelpingmedia.org/content/view/387/1/ > > > News - South Asia > > > By David Brewer > > > Tuesday, 16 June 2009 > > > > > > Reports from Bangladesh say that Shahidul Alam, the photo journalist, > > > blogger and founder of the Drik picture network has been detained by > > > Indian border security forces while working on the Bangladesh side of > > > the border. > > > > > > In a message to this site from Dhaka, Alam's partner says he was > working > > > on a multimedia project about the Brahmaputra with two colleagues when > > > border guards took him awa > > > > > > There are now fears for Alam's safety and supporters are calling on the > > > international community to push for his release. > > > > > > The last message from Shahidul Alam came through at !8:21 on Tuesday 16 > > > June when he called home to say that border security guards had asked > > > him to come over to the Indian side of the border where they detained > > > him at Sahapara 21 IPP, across the border from Rowmari. > > > > > > His two colleagues are on the Bangladeshi side of the border, and can't > > > get to him. > > > > > > At the time Alam was working on the Bangladesh end of the river > > > Brahmaputra project. He had travelled to Kurigram with two Drik > > > colleagues to take photos, video and stills. > > > > > > Contact has been made with a number of local and international media > > > organisations and government officials, including the Indian High > > > Commission. > > > _________________________________________ > > > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > > > Critiques & Collaborations > > > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > > > subscribe in the subject header. > > > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > > > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> > > _________________________________________ > > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > > Critiques & Collaborations > > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > > subscribe in the subject header. > > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> > > > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > subscribe in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> _________________________________________ reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. Critiques & Collaborations To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with subscribe in the subject header. To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> From kshmendra2005 at yahoo.com Wed Jun 17 15:50:46 2009 From: kshmendra2005 at yahoo.com (Kshmendra Kaul) Date: Wed, 17 Jun 2009 03:20:46 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Reader-list] Shahidul Alam detained by Indian Border Security Force Message-ID: <934304.78487.qm@web57208.mail.re3.yahoo.com> Dear Santosh   Bias clouds rationality.   If you had cared to read properly the posts (by Shun-Ling Chen) on which Pawan commented you might have seen the idiocy in them in their trying to suggest that Shahidul Alam was some innocent critter ensnared by the Indian BSF.   If he 'strayed' into Indian territory and if was taking photographs at the 'border', the BSF did right in detaining him and ascertaining his antecedents. He was subsequently arrested by BDR.    The simplicity with which it was reported that he was asked to 'come over' by BSF was ridiculous. It was unbelievable.     Of course if you are one of those who's obsession is 'India-Bad, Bad-India' then you are entitled to your own idiocy.   Kshmendra --- On Wed, 6/17/09, Santhosh Kumar wrote: From: Santhosh Kumar Subject: Re: [Reader-list] Shahidul Alam detained by Indian Border Security Force To: "Pawan Durani" Cc: reader-list at sarai.net, "Shun-Ling Chen" Date: Wednesday, June 17, 2009, 10:18 AM it is hard to believe that you will believe.... On Wed, Jun 17, 2009 at 9:53 AM, Pawan Durani wrote: > Hard to believe ..... > > On Tue, Jun 16, 2009 at 7:55 PM, Shun-Ling Chen >wrote: > > > http://unheardvoice.net/blog/2009/06/16/shahidul-alam-detained-by-indian > > -border-security-force/ > > > > Dr Shahidul Alam, well-known photographer, and founder Drik, was > > detained by Indian Border Security Forces while working on the > > Bangladesh side of the border on his Brahmaputra project. He called me > > at 18:21 pm to tell me that the guards had asked him to come over, and > > then detained him at Sahapara 21 IPP, across the border from Rowmari. > > His two colleagues are on the Bangladeshi side of the border, and can't > > get to him. > > > > Please contact Home and Foreign Ministry officials requesting that they > > do all possible to get him released immediately. It is worth mentioning > > that the Indian BSF have detained and killed many innocent Bangladeshis > > in recent years, in the border areas. > > > > http://www.mediahelpingmedia.org/content/view/387/1/ > > News - South Asia > > By David Brewer > > Tuesday, 16 June 2009 > > > > Reports from Bangladesh say that Shahidul Alam, the photo journalist, > > blogger and founder of the Drik picture network has been detained by > > Indian border security forces while working on the Bangladesh side of > > the border. > > > > In a message to this site from Dhaka, Alam's partner says he was working > > on a multimedia project about the Brahmaputra with two colleagues when > > border guards took him awa > > > > There are now fears for Alam's safety and supporters are calling on the > > international community to push for his release. > > > > The last message from Shahidul Alam came through at !8:21 on Tuesday 16 > > June when he called home to say that border security guards had asked > > him to come over to the Indian side of the border where they detained > > him at Sahapara 21 IPP, across the border from Rowmari. > > > > His two colleagues are on the Bangladeshi side of the border, and can't > > get to him. > > > > At the time Alam was working on the Bangladesh end of the river > > Brahmaputra project. He had travelled to Kurigram with two Drik > > colleagues to take photos, video and stills. > > > > Contact has been made with a number of local and international media > > organisations and government officials, including the Indian High > > Commission. > > _________________________________________ > > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > > Critiques & Collaborations > > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > > subscribe in the subject header. > > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > subscribe in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> > _________________________________________ reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. Critiques & Collaborations To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with subscribe in the subject header. To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> From ravig64 at gmail.com Wed Jun 17 15:54:04 2009 From: ravig64 at gmail.com (Ravi Agarwal) Date: Wed, 17 Jun 2009 15:54:04 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Shahidul Alam detained by Indian Border Security Force In-Reply-To: <607253.28487.qm@web39108.mail.mud.yahoo.com> References: <607253.28487.qm@web39108.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: Dear all, I am not aware of the details of the case, besides what I have read, but know that Shahidul Alam is a well known and fine photographer and artist, who has done much to support the cause of photography from a Southern perspective, though his organisation. His work is well known. I think that I would find it hard to beleive that he is doing something that needs him to be detained by any police. Many years ago, I too unwittingly crossed the India Bangaldesh border without realising it. In any case, we should not use this as a volleying point of our politics, whatever they may be. We need to be restrained in talking about people we do not know, without knowing any details of specifics, and I believe any restraint of people's right to express and freely so, needs to be questioned and resisted, no matter what point of view they represent. There is a plea to protest his detention, and that is what needs to be engaged with, nothing else. If people do not support that, they do not have to. best ravi agarwal On Wed, Jun 17, 2009 at 1:42 PM, A.K. Malik wrote: > > Dear Rajenji, > It is our perceptions which decide who is guilty and who is > innocent. The entire para-military forces are dubbed rapists in Kashmir for > a few stray incidents.It seems some of us are more concerned about Human > Rights of Pakistanis,Bangladeshis than of our own countrymen. > I do not know the complete facts of the case. If the BSF has really crossed > over to Bangladesh and detained Shahidul Alam, then it is of concern. On the > other hand if he has illegally crossed over to our side and then was > detained, why anyone should bother unless it has been innocuous or beyond > the control of the person concerned. > Labelling the Border forces killers of innocent people without any proof is > really doing injustice to those who are protecting our lives at the cost of > their own lives. > Regards, > > (A.K.MALIK) > From kshmendra2005 at yahoo.com Wed Jun 17 16:00:39 2009 From: kshmendra2005 at yahoo.com (Kshmendra Kaul) Date: Wed, 17 Jun 2009 03:30:39 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Reader-list] "The demise of Pakistan is inevitable" Message-ID: <611922.50198.qm@web57201.mail.re3.yahoo.com> Dear Rakesh   You wrote : "I don't feel that the Pakistani common people have any interest in training people to conduct terror blasts in India, but many sections of the Pakistani elite and the Pakistani army are involved in this, and we need to seriously look into this."   I would suggest that you are not fully aware of the dynamics in Pakistan. Many "common people" in Pakistan fund, support and participate in the hate-agendas against India of which "terror blasts in India" is one outcome.   Kshmendra   --- On Tue, 6/16/09, Rakesh Iyer wrote: From: Rakesh Iyer Subject: Re: [Reader-list] "The demise of Pakistan is inevitable" To: "Kshmendra Kaul" Cc: "sarai list" Date: Tuesday, June 16, 2009, 3:12 PM Dear Kshamendra Pakistan, in a sense is already fractured. We are in a situation now, where there is no idea about whom India can talk to and trust, and who it can't. We have Zardari, Gilani and Kayani, the state actors (or those who are acting, as done in films, for the Pakistani state on the world stage) who always want to get more funds to actually buy weapon systems against Pakistan, in the name of fighting terrorism on their western border and blackmail other nations that their nation won't survive. At the same time, we have non-state actors, who are directly or indirectly supported by the state actors, who create problems of different kind and blasts like Mumbai 26/11 or others. And these non-state actors create problems for their own people too sometimes, like Peshawar blasts and Lal Masjid incident. The triple conundrum of terrorism in India, which we in India have been suffering from, has one of the problems as the Pakistani state. I don't feel that the Pakistani common people have any interest in training people to conduct terror blasts in India, but many sections of the Pakistani elite and the Pakistani army are involved in this, and we need to seriously look into this. Through diplomatic pressure or other means, it's time for not only India, but the entire world to look into this. This world, as it is, is already suffering from so many problems. We should concentrate on such problems rather than fighting another problem by creating it. Hence, the Pakistani state should be told in stricter terms that no financial aid would be provided to them, and only help through the Red Cross or the UNICEF or other humanitarian aid would be provided. Equally, it's the responsibility of all, including the USA, to stop giving such military equipment, which only fuels further anger against the US in the minds of the common people and encourages them to join the Taliban. Instead, we should go for a different strategy and start talking with those who actually don't want violence. Most of those who are joining Taliban, I don't feel, are interested in making Islam the supreme religion. Their concern is simply that innocents are getting killed in such wars, and therefore we need to separate such people from the hoodlums and the elite among the Taliban who set useless agendas. Even if my suggestion is too much, at least the current stream of US action is not going to help, and it is imperative that we change the course. Otherwise, Obama would have still gone the same course as Bush did, and 4 years from now, people would realize that Obama never brought the change he was supposed to. And if Pakistan actually states that the Taliban will win, then somebody has to take the courage to call Pakistan's bluff. Because as I see it, the Taliban and the Pakistani state will continue to co-exist, irrespective of whatever others want to say about it. The elites in both have set the agendas, and they won't move away from each other. Regards Rakesh From kshmendra2005 at yahoo.com Wed Jun 17 16:06:42 2009 From: kshmendra2005 at yahoo.com (Kshmendra Kaul) Date: Wed, 17 Jun 2009 03:36:42 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Reader-list] Shahidul Alam detained by Indian Border Security Force Message-ID: <923614.85635.qm@web57202.mail.re3.yahoo.com> Dear AKM   Well said.   Kshmendra --- On Wed, 6/17/09, A.K. Malik wrote: From: A.K. Malik Subject: Re: [Reader-list] Shahidul Alam detained by Indian Border Security Force To: "Rajendra Bhat Uppinangadi" Cc: "Sarai List" Date: Wednesday, June 17, 2009, 1:42 PM Dear Rajenji,               It is our perceptions which decide who is guilty and who is innocent. The entire para-military forces are dubbed rapists in Kashmir for a few stray incidents.It seems some of us are more concerned about Human Rights of Pakistanis,Bangladeshis than of our own countrymen. I do not know the complete facts of the case. If the BSF has really crossed over to Bangladesh and detained Shahidul Alam, then it is of concern. On the other hand if he has illegally crossed over to our side and then was detained, why anyone should bother unless it has been innocuous or beyond the control of the person concerned. Labelling the Border forces killers of innocent people without any proof is really doing injustice to those who are protecting our lives at the cost of their own lives. Regards, (A.K.MALIK) --- On Wed, 6/17/09, Rajendra Bhat Uppinangadi wrote: > From: Rajendra Bhat Uppinangadi > Subject: Re: [Reader-list] Shahidul Alam detained by Indian Border Security Force > To: "anupam chakravartty" > Cc: "sarai list" > Date: Wednesday, June 17, 2009, 12:35 PM > Dear All, one issue that is > concerning me is, are men and women in media > above laws.? If they are doing any project, they can > violate laws of the > land.? Is media responsible to citizens of the nation in > which they are > operating.? Or they are responsible only to media barons > and the share > holders of the media corporate to share the "profits" of > such projects.? As > the humans work in different walks of life, do they become > above laws if > they are say, politicians, judicial appointees and > executives, or are they > appointed to serve the citizens in best possible interests > of the citizens.? > >   Now, as to current matter ubder discussion, it is to > be noted that if the > border force do their duties sincerely, no under age > married girls can come > in to India and work as dance bar girls, sex workers in as > far as south > India, particularly in Chennai, Bangalore, and Hyderabad. > It is true that > they have practically no opportunities to earn a living in > their bangaldesh, > but the sad issue is many of these married girls are in > southern India,, > recently Bangalore police with Chennai counter parts ripped > open the network > of this illegal trade of human traffick and sex trade. > Local news network > channel 9 and Udaya TV and also Suvarna tv covered the > issue > comprehensively. Even with recession and lesser salaries, > the stressed minds > are seeking extra carnal pleasures ? > > As to this man of media, why he has not taken necessary > authorisation for > the project work.? Is he under cover operative for any > group.? If Dr. > Binayak Sen can be held captive in detention for the good > work he has had on > record, is not above laws, which ofcourse is obnxious, are > men in media > above laws.? > >   Amusingly, the fate of Prajna Thakur and 12 others > who are under detention > for months now without any shred of proof has no defenders > of human rights > talking or them.! None is concerned about these detentions > of Prajna > Thakur.? Perceptions of a few seem to be taking over the > rights and wrongs > in society, when it comes to human rights of the humans.? > >   Regards, > >    Rajen. > > On Wed, Jun 17, 2009 at 11:16 AM, anupam chakravartty > wrote: > > > Photographer Shahidul Alam spends 6hrs in BSF > custody: > > > > http://bdnews24.com/details.php?id=87461&cid=2 > > > > > > http://www.indianexpress.com/news/Bangladeshi-photographer-held--crossing--Indo-Bangla-border/477648 > > > > Two versions of the same story. However, if as per the > BSF officials are > > claiming that Alam crossed over in the Dhubri sector, > which is also my home > > district, the Brahmaputra river is itself the border. > during the floods > > immigrant bangladeshis in connivance of BSF and BDR > enter India on boats > > carrying pineapples from across the border. the no > man's land mentioned in > > both of the reports is actually river brahmaputra. > > > > thanks anupam > > > > > > On 6/17/09, Santhosh Kumar > wrote: > > > > > > it is hard to believe that you will believe.... > > > > > > On Wed, Jun 17, 2009 at 9:53 AM, Pawan Durani > > > >wrote: > > > > > > > Hard to believe ..... > > > > > > > > On Tue, Jun 16, 2009 at 7:55 PM, Shun-Ling > Chen > > > >wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > http://unheardvoice.net/blog/2009/06/16/shahidul-alam-detained-by-indian > > > > > -border-security-force/ > > > > > > > > > > Dr Shahidul Alam, well-known > photographer, and founder Drik, was > > > > > detained by Indian Border Security > Forces while working on the > > > > > Bangladesh side of the border on his > Brahmaputra project. He called > > me > > > > > at 18:21 pm to tell me that the guards > had asked him to come over, > > and > > > > > then detained him at Sahapara 21 IPP, > across the border from Rowmari. > > > > > His two colleagues are on the > Bangladeshi side of the border, and > > can't > > > > > get to him. > > > > > > > > > > Please contact Home and Foreign > Ministry officials requesting that > > they > > > > > do all possible to get him released > immediately. It is worth > > mentioning > > > > > that the Indian BSF have detained and > killed many innocent > > Bangladeshis > > > > > in recent years, in the border areas. > > > > > > > > > > http://www.mediahelpingmedia.org/content/view/387/1/ > > > > > News - South Asia > > > > > By David Brewer > > > > > Tuesday, 16 June 2009 > > > > > > > > > > Reports from Bangladesh say that > Shahidul Alam, the photo journalist, > > > > > blogger and founder of the Drik picture > network has been detained by > > > > > Indian border security forces while > working on the Bangladesh side of > > > > > the border. > > > > > > > > > > In a message to this site from Dhaka, > Alam's partner says he was > > > working > > > > > on a multimedia project about the > Brahmaputra with two colleagues > > when > > > > > border guards took him awa > > > > > > > > > > There are now fears for Alam's safety > and supporters are calling on > > the > > > > > international community to push for his > release. > > > > > > > > > > The last message from Shahidul Alam > came through at !8:21 on Tuesday > > 16 > > > > > June when he called home to say that > border security guards had asked > > > > > him to come over to the Indian side of > the border where they detained > > > > > him at Sahapara 21 IPP, across the > border from Rowmari. > > > > > > > > > > His two colleagues are on the > Bangladeshi side of the border, and > > can't > > > > > get to him. > > > > > > > > > > At the time Alam was working on the > Bangladesh end of the river > > > > > Brahmaputra project. He had travelled > to Kurigram with two Drik > > > > > colleagues to take photos, video and > stills. > > > > > > > > > > Contact has been made with a number of > local and international media > > > > > organisations and government officials, > including the Indian High > > > > > Commission. > > > > > > _________________________________________ > > > > > reader-list: an open discussion list on > media and the city. > > > > > Critiques & Collaborations > > > > > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net > with > > > > > subscribe in the subject header. > > > > > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > > > > > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> > > > > _________________________________________ > > > > reader-list: an open discussion list on > media and the city. > > > > Critiques & Collaborations > > > > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net > with > > > > subscribe in the subject header. > > > > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > > > > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> > > > > > > > _________________________________________ > > > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and > the city. > > > Critiques & Collaborations > > > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net > with > > > subscribe in the subject header. > > > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > > > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> > > _________________________________________ > > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the > city. > > Critiques & Collaborations > > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net > with > > subscribe in the subject header. > > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> > > > > > > -- > Rajen. > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the > city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net > with subscribe in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/>       _________________________________________ reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. Critiques & Collaborations To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with subscribe in the subject header. To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> From kshmendra2005 at yahoo.com Wed Jun 17 16:16:48 2009 From: kshmendra2005 at yahoo.com (Kshmendra Kaul) Date: Wed, 17 Jun 2009 03:46:48 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Reader-list] 'Men in uniform are Kashmir's problem, not solution' Message-ID: <716639.85838.qm@web57208.mail.re3.yahoo.com> Dear Rakesh   Thanks for your valuable comments.   The conversation with Inder was my questioning his suggestion (automatic assumption) that the Shopian-Rapes were committed by the Army (security forces).   In that context therefore, your comments are misplaced, valuable as they are.   Unless of course you too have automatically assumed that the Shopian-rapes were the handiwork of the Army (security forces).   In that case I would say to you what I said to Inder  "I thought guilt had to be established by evidence. Or, are there varying ethical standards for different situations?"   It could very well be that the Army (security forces) are the ones who Raped & Murdered. It could also very well be that they are not.   Kshmendra   --- On Mon, 6/15/09, Rakesh Iyer wrote: From: Rakesh Iyer Subject: Re: [Reader-list] 'Men in uniform are Kashmir's problem, not solution' To: "Inder Salim" Cc: "reader-list" Date: Monday, June 15, 2009, 11:26 PM Dear Kshamendra The first lesson our Indian army needs to be taught is to respect women, not rape them. It's not just Kashmir where this is happening. Even the sensitive North-East shows that the army doesn't respect women, and infact misuses AFSPA to do what it wishes. And now, through the Salwa Judum, we have come to the point where the militia colludes with the paramilitary forces and other divisions to torture women through rapes and killings. This is not what the army is meant for. While politicians have misunderstood the problem and have sent the armed forces in certain areas, the army does not have the right to misuse the power they have been granted in their hands. With power comes responsibility, and it's a massive one, to ensure that people are not targetted and in particular women are not targetted. Whoever is a rapist or committing crime against women, whoever he is, whichever party and ideology he belongs to, deserves punishment and the army men are not exceptions to this rule I believe in. It's high time such army men are brought behind bars, and our army must be warned about this. The army is not sent to enjoy women at places they are stationed for their sexual needs; it's sent to protect the nation (or the borders in this case or ensure law and order) and they should do that. Otherwise they should stop being in the army and become gigolos or male prostitutes. Regards Rakesh _________________________________________ reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. Critiques & Collaborations To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with subscribe in the subject header. To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> From 2tahamehmood at googlemail.com Wed Jun 17 16:46:46 2009 From: 2tahamehmood at googlemail.com (Taha Mehmood) Date: Wed, 17 Jun 2009 12:16:46 +0100 Subject: [Reader-list] News Items posted on the net on Multipurpose National Identity Cards-130 Message-ID: <65be9bf40906170416m7b8bd0e0idc60fe638de49e1c@mail.gmail.com> Home Affairs Minister P. Chidambaram said the government has initiated a scheme to provide multipurpose national identity cards (MNIC) to every citizen by 2011. PwC's Ratan said: "The unique ID (or MNIC) scheme can help the government in targeting the right people for government programs and subsidies." Today there is no one, uniform way of identifying an individual in India. http://www.zdnetasia.com/news/communications/0,39044192,62055037,00.htm India must focus on broadband, e-govt By Swati Prasad, ZDNet Asia Tuesday, June 16, 2009 03:16 PM INDIA--With a new government in place, the country looks poised to return to the high-growth trajectory, but only if the focus is on e-government and technologies such as 3G and WiMax, say analysts. "The quality of governance and the quality of services delivered by the government are more important today than before," Neel Ratan, executive director at PricewaterhouseCoopers (PwC), told ZDNet Asia in a phone interview. Raju Bhatnagar, Nasscom's vice president of business process outsourcing (BPO) and government relations, all sectors must contribute to economic growth. "And IT can be a true facilitator in this process," Bhatnagar said in a phone interview. Nasscom is India's trade body and chamber of commerce for the country's IT-BPO industry. According to the organization, the government needs to implement a nation-wide skills development program and leverage IT expertise to enable education and impart employable skills. "IT can facilitate skills building at a national level, making people more employable," Bhatnagar said. For instance, he said, technologies such as telepresence and videoconferencing can be used to broadcast lectures given by professors across India to overcome the scarcity of good teachers in rural and semi-urban areas. "This will have a multiplier effect on the economy," he added. According to Diptarup Chakraborti, principal research analyst at Gartner, IT enablement and PC penetration should also the priority. India, unfortunately, lags several other Asian economies in terms of both PC and Internet adoption, Chakraborti said in a phone interview. "Internet has been around for nearly 15 years in India. Yet, our internet population is only around 60 million in a population of 1.1 billion," he said. Also, India needs to redefine broadband, which the country currently classifies as Internet speeds of 256Kbps, he said. Broadband, 3G to be facilitators In addition, there have been inordinate delays in the auction of 3G and broadband wireless access (BWA) spectrum, owing to various differences of opinion among ministers including the base price for auctions and number of licenses to be awarded. Industry analysts urge 3G and broadband to be given immediate attention. "These would provide the basis for other implementations like e-government," Deepak Kumar, IDC's general manager of communications research, told ZDNet Asia in an e-mail interview. With 3G, mobile users will get be able to access the Internet at speeds of 7.2Mbps. However, Ratan said broadband and 3G are not prerequisites for e-government services. "While it's good to have government services over broadband, the government is already setting up community service centers (CSCs) across the country. These will serve as delivery channels for e-government services in rural areas," he said, adding that the government is setting up 100,000 CSCs across India. Kumar though noted that 3G, WiMax, Digital Subscriber Line (xDSL), Metro Ethernet and other such rollouts, would provide India's economy with the necessary infrastructure and direct impetus to various knowledge and service sectors. "Even sectors like manufacturing and banking and financial services (BFSI), stand to benefit immensely from these technologies, given the increasingly distributed and multi-location character of such enterprises," he said. "It would also be worth initiating processes for the formulation of, say, a 4G policy, given that such policies have taken much time to construct in the past," he added. "In fact, government itself can consider adopting new paradigms like unified communication, enterprise mobility, cloud computing, and so on, on a wider scale, to see how these technologies would act as catalysts to the growth of the Indian economy," Kumar said. E-govt will boost economic growth By some measures, the new government seems to recognize the importance of IT. While Finance Minister Pranab Mukherjee highlighted that reviving the Indian economy will be a top priority, Home Affairs Minister P. Chidambaram said the government has initiated a scheme to provide multipurpose national identity cards (MNIC) to every citizen by 2011. PwC's Ratan said: "The unique ID (or MNIC) scheme can help the government in targeting the right people for government programs and subsidies." Today there is no one, uniform way of identifying an individual in India. Also, in May 2006, the government approved the National e-Governance Plan (NeGP) comprising of 27 Mission Mode Projects (MMPs) and 10 components. The NeGP seeks to make all government services accessible to the general population through common service delivery outlets, thereby, ensuring efficiency, transparency and reliability of such services at affordable costs. According to Nasscom, the government needs to develop public-private partnerships to accelerate implementation of approved e-government programs and evolve appropriate new initiatives. It also needs to increase government IT budgets to provide a strong stimulus to the local IT-BPO industry and economy. The Department of Information Technology (DIT) Web site lists status reports of several MMPs. Chakraborti said: "The impact of e-government schemes will be felt in the next five to seven years. We may not see immediate impact of schemes." Swati Prasad is a freelance IT writer based in India. From 2tahamehmood at googlemail.com Wed Jun 17 16:57:35 2009 From: 2tahamehmood at googlemail.com (Taha Mehmood) Date: Wed, 17 Jun 2009 12:27:35 +0100 Subject: [Reader-list] MNIC: Parliament Questions - 25 Message-ID: <65be9bf40906170427p4b18bf6ai35ee68cd92697570@mail.gmail.com> http://164.100.47.132/psearch/QResult13.aspx?qref=33012 GOVERNMENT OF INDIA MINISTRY OF HOME AFFAIRS LOK SABHA UNSTARRED QUESTION NO 4404 ANSWERED ON 18.12.2001 ISSUANCE OF ISLANDER`S IDENTITY CARDS 4404 . Shri BISHNU PADA RAY (a) whether the Andaman and Nicobar Administration is going to get survey of population for issue of Islander`s Identity Cards as recommended by the District Planning Committee; (b) if so, the time by which the proposed survey is likely to be conducted; and (c) if not, the reasons for non-acceptance of the District Planning Committees` recommendation ? ANSWER THE MINISTER OF STATE IN THE MINISTRY OF HOME AFFAIRS (CH. VIDYASAGAR RAO) (a) to (c): Yes, Sir. A suggestion was made in one of the meetings of the District Planning Committee to assign the survey of the population for issuance of Islanders` Identity Cards to students but the Committee did not eventually make any formal recommendation to this effect. The A&N Administration have decided to conduct the survey through Government servants on the same basis as was done in connection with the Census of India, 2001 operations and Intensive Revision of the Parliamentary Electoral Rolls. The Survey is tentatively scheduled to be held in the month of February, 2001 with a revisional round in March, 2002. From c.anupam at gmail.com Wed Jun 17 17:15:57 2009 From: c.anupam at gmail.com (anupam chakravartty) Date: Wed, 17 Jun 2009 17:15:57 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Shahidul Alam detained by Indian Border Security Force In-Reply-To: <923614.85635.qm@web57202.mail.re3.yahoo.com> References: <923614.85635.qm@web57202.mail.re3.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <341380d00906170445w2c6c9484o3ded823196207d08@mail.gmail.com> First of all for Rajen, Your argument about media persons being above the law is invalid here. Had it been one of the Indian media person (or a vegetable vendor or a labourer) stuck in say Afghanistan with Talibans, you would have raised hue and cry about his release. The bottomline is that Alam had gone for work. In many cases, media persons also venture inside trouble torn areas, with limited or no protection. And most of these assignment involve risks, the work is mostly done out of free will (obviously, if Alam had wanted to film the river or the no man’s land in this area, he could have arranged for these pictures. However he decided to venture out on his own, which is the beauty of this job. Unlike you Rajen, these people actually go out and establish things on there own instead of believing someone else). It was clear that since Shahapara and Rowmari are in the areas in which the river Brahmaputra serves as an international border, it is very clear he might strayed inside the no man’s land as there is no clear demarcations that could be set up in the area. The only possible way to man these territories is through patrol boats run by the BSF and BDR. Secondly, a photographer of such repute, obviously he would not have been spying in the area but as stated by his friends, he was working on a project. But I would certainly appreciate BSF and BDR to have performed their duties. At the same time, I am surprised that none of you have mulled over this question if Alam was actually photographing how migrants from Bangladesh were crossing over to India by paying bribes to both BDR and BSF on the pineapple boats. This is an assignment all the journalists belonging to North East India and Bangladesh have dying to take up but because of the very nature of the borders, none have been able to penetrate. Unfortunately for you Rajen, this would mean that journalists are above law. It is sincere request to his friends to share some details of this project. Kshmendra, I am not surprised that he was arrested by BDR. Latest reports say that he has got bail. (http://bdnews24.com/details.php?id=87500&cid=2). Malik, sitting in Delhi and calling human rights violations by the security forces in Kashmir, as a stray incident is easiest thing. When you call these incidents stray you are not only making the life of those whose rights have been violated but also young jawans who face the bullets in these areas (stray or otherwise). Have you ever wondered how many rounds does an unit of Army get as practice bullets in Kashmir or North East? I would want you find that the out and then come back here and discuss stray incidents. In fact, on many occasions I have felt that the many of us who are in Delhi or are operating of that place think that the rest of the country is full of stray incidents. What happens in Delhi is the sheer truth. It is this stray-incident mentality, which is bringing shame to your security forces. Had the political and security establishment were careful about fencing the borders, creating certain points of interaction through specified points, this would not have happened. -anupam From c.anupam at gmail.com Wed Jun 17 17:26:52 2009 From: c.anupam at gmail.com (anupam chakravartty) Date: Wed, 17 Jun 2009 17:26:52 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] "The demise of Pakistan is inevitable" In-Reply-To: <611922.50198.qm@web57201.mail.re3.yahoo.com> References: <611922.50198.qm@web57201.mail.re3.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <341380d00906170456r5e729eeey8083349f48e95cc9@mail.gmail.com> Dear Kshmendra, A lot of innocent or common people who donate funds to the temples are being used to train bajrang dal activists across the country. it is a well documented fact. -thanks anupam On 6/17/09, Kshmendra Kaul wrote: > > Dear Rakesh > > You wrote : "I don't feel that the Pakistani common people have any > interest in training people to conduct terror blasts in India, but many > sections of the Pakistani elite and the Pakistani army are involved in this, > and we need to seriously look into this." > > I would suggest that you are not fully aware of the dynamics in Pakistan. > Many "common people" in Pakistan fund, support and participate in the > hate-agendas against India of which "terror blasts in India" is one outcome. > > Kshmendra > > --- On Tue, 6/16/09, Rakesh Iyer wrote: > > > From: Rakesh Iyer > Subject: Re: [Reader-list] "The demise of Pakistan is inevitable" > To: "Kshmendra Kaul" > Cc: "sarai list" > Date: Tuesday, June 16, 2009, 3:12 PM > > > Dear Kshamendra > > Pakistan, in a sense is already fractured. We are in a situation now, where > there is no idea about whom India can talk to and trust, and who it can't. > We have Zardari, Gilani and Kayani, the state actors (or those who are > acting, as done in films, for the Pakistani state on the world stage) who > always want to get more funds to actually buy weapon systems against > Pakistan, in the name of fighting terrorism on their western border and > blackmail other nations that their nation won't survive. > > At the same time, we have non-state actors, who are directly or indirectly > supported by the state actors, who create problems of different kind and > blasts like Mumbai 26/11 or others. And these non-state actors create > problems for their own people too sometimes, like Peshawar blasts and Lal > Masjid incident. > > The triple conundrum of terrorism in India, which we in India have been > suffering from, has one of the problems as the Pakistani state. I don't feel > that the Pakistani common people have any interest in training people to > conduct terror blasts in India, but many sections of the Pakistani elite and > the Pakistani army are involved in this, and we need to seriously look into > this. Through diplomatic pressure or other means, it's time for not only > India, but the entire world to look into this. This world, as it is, is > already suffering from so many problems. We should concentrate on such > problems rather than fighting another problem by creating it. > > Hence, the Pakistani state should be told in stricter terms that no > financial aid would be provided to them, and only help through the Red Cross > or the UNICEF or other humanitarian aid would be provided. Equally, it's the > responsibility of all, including the USA, to stop giving such military > equipment, which only fuels further anger against the US in the minds of the > common people and encourages them to join the Taliban. Instead, we should go > for a different strategy and start talking with those who actually don't > want violence. Most of those who are joining Taliban, I don't feel, are > interested in making Islam the supreme religion. Their concern is simply > that innocents are getting killed in such wars, and therefore we need to > separate such people from the hoodlums and the elite among the Taliban who > set useless agendas. > > Even if my suggestion is too much, at least the current stream of US action > is not going to help, and it is imperative that we change the course. > Otherwise, Obama would have still gone the same course as Bush did, and 4 > years from now, people would realize that Obama never brought the change he > was supposed to. > > And if Pakistan actually states that the Taliban will win, then somebody > has to take the courage to call Pakistan's bluff. Because as I see it, the > Taliban and the Pakistani state will continue to co-exist, irrespective of > whatever others want to say about it. The elites in both have set the > agendas, and they won't move away from each other. > > Regards > > Rakesh > > > > > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > subscribe in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: From rakesh.rnbdj at gmail.com Wed Jun 17 17:45:27 2009 From: rakesh.rnbdj at gmail.com (Rakesh Iyer) Date: Wed, 17 Jun 2009 17:45:27 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] "The demise of Pakistan is inevitable" In-Reply-To: <611922.50198.qm@web57201.mail.re3.yahoo.com> References: <611922.50198.qm@web57201.mail.re3.yahoo.com> Message-ID: Dear Kshamendra I wanted to convey that the aam aadmi in Pakistan in general has no concern with this agenda of the extremists. And the section of the people who have been fooled in this are those who have suffered due to the economic, social and political unempowerment of the masses in Pakistan (which is also the issue in India but on a relatively smaller scale). As Anupam jee said himself, Bajrang Dal is equally a problem on this side of the border as the Jamaat-ud-Dawa is. Hence, it's time that we solve this problem but keeping in mind that it's the Pakistani army and the Pakistani elites we have to counter, not the common man. Otherwise, the only solution is to drop a nuclear bomb on Pakistan, as Simi Garewal had herself said. How many are willing to consider that? Regards Rakesh From kshmendra2005 at yahoo.com Wed Jun 17 18:22:11 2009 From: kshmendra2005 at yahoo.com (Kshmendra Kaul) Date: Wed, 17 Jun 2009 05:52:11 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Reader-list] "The demise of Pakistan is inevitable" Message-ID: <594106.70177.qm@web57207.mail.re3.yahoo.com> Ahhhhhhh!!!! Dear Dear Anupam   Absolutely spot on as an analogy.    But funds are not collected only through the temple route or collected only in the name of Bhagwan. Through one route or the other, in general, what is usually referred to as Hindutva Terrorism is funded by the 'common people'. I would not call them innocents. They are complicit in the acts of "Hindutva Terrorism". I have seen them exult at and call for more such acts.   In India thankfully, as yet, such collection of funds is not blatantly done in public with the stated purpose of where they are finally used.   The story in Pakistan is a little different. Mention of India, Kashmir, with liberal doses of America and Jews are heady formulations that have moved the 'common people' to liberally contribute funds for "Jihad". That in addition to funds for Mosques or Madrassas in the name of Allah which get re-routed to 'terror' activities.   Kshmendra --- On Wed, 6/17/09, anupam chakravartty wrote: From: anupam chakravartty Subject: Re: [Reader-list] "The demise of Pakistan is inevitable" To: "sarai list" Date: Wednesday, June 17, 2009, 5:26 PM Dear Kshmendra, A lot of innocent or common people who donate funds to the temples are being used to train bajrang dal activists across the country. it is a well documented fact. -thanks anupam On 6/17/09, Kshmendra Kaul wrote: > > Dear Rakesh > > You wrote : "I don't feel that the Pakistani common people have any > interest in training people to conduct terror blasts in India, but many > sections of the Pakistani elite and the Pakistani army are involved in this, > and we need to seriously look into this." > > I would suggest that you are not fully aware of the dynamics in Pakistan. > Many "common people" in Pakistan fund, support and participate in the > hate-agendas against India of which "terror blasts in India" is one outcome. > > Kshmendra > > --- On Tue, 6/16/09, Rakesh Iyer wrote: > > > From: Rakesh Iyer > Subject: Re: [Reader-list] "The demise of Pakistan is inevitable" > To: "Kshmendra Kaul" > Cc: "sarai list" > Date: Tuesday, June 16, 2009, 3:12 PM > > > Dear Kshamendra > > Pakistan, in a sense is already fractured. We are in a situation now, where > there is no idea about whom India can talk to and trust, and who it can't. > We have Zardari, Gilani and Kayani, the state actors (or those who are > acting, as done in films, for the Pakistani state on the world stage) who > always want to get more funds to actually buy weapon systems against > Pakistan, in the name of fighting terrorism on their western border and > blackmail other nations that their nation won't survive. > > At the same time, we have non-state actors, who are directly or indirectly > supported by the state actors, who create problems of different kind and > blasts like Mumbai 26/11 or others. And these non-state actors create > problems for their own people too sometimes, like Peshawar blasts and Lal > Masjid incident. > > The triple conundrum of terrorism in India, which we in India have been > suffering from, has one of the problems as the Pakistani state. I don't feel > that the Pakistani common people have any interest in training people to > conduct terror blasts in India, but many sections of the Pakistani elite and > the Pakistani army are involved in this, and we need to seriously look into > this. Through diplomatic pressure or other means, it's time for not only > India, but the entire world to look into this. This world, as it is, is > already suffering from so many problems. We should concentrate on such > problems rather than fighting another problem by creating it. > > Hence, the Pakistani state should be told in stricter terms that no > financial aid would be provided to them, and only help through the Red Cross > or the UNICEF or other humanitarian aid would be provided. Equally, it's the > responsibility of all, including the USA, to stop giving such military > equipment, which only fuels further anger against the US in the minds of the > common people and encourages them to join the Taliban. Instead, we should go > for a different strategy and start talking with those who actually don't > want violence. Most of those who are joining Taliban, I don't feel, are > interested in making Islam the supreme religion. Their concern is simply > that innocents are getting killed in such wars, and therefore we need to > separate such people from the hoodlums and the elite among the Taliban who > set useless agendas. > > Even if my suggestion is too much, at least the current stream of US action > is not going to help, and it is imperative that we change the course. > Otherwise, Obama would have still gone the same course as Bush did, and 4 > years from now, people would realize that Obama never brought the change he > was supposed to. > > And if Pakistan actually states that the Taliban will win, then somebody > has to take the courage to call Pakistan's bluff. Because as I see it, the > Taliban and the Pakistani state will continue to co-exist, irrespective of > whatever others want to say about it. The elites in both have set the > agendas, and they won't move away from each other. > > Regards > > Rakesh > > > > > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > subscribe in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: _________________________________________ reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. Critiques & Collaborations To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with subscribe in the subject header. To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> From kshmendra2005 at yahoo.com Wed Jun 17 17:59:34 2009 From: kshmendra2005 at yahoo.com (Kshmendra Kaul) Date: Wed, 17 Jun 2009 05:29:34 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Reader-list] 'Men in uniform are Kashmir's problem, not solution' Message-ID: <347408.93876.qm@web57203.mail.re3.yahoo.com> Dear Inder   - Still wonder how much south in the "south of Kashmir" your pics are from. Perhaps you could recollect the exact location   - To repeat myself, neither the one you call a 'local' appears to be Kashmiri nor do the girls appear to be Kashmiri girls in your  "A short story in four images from Kashmir"   - I also found interesting; the picnicky litter on which the dogs seem to have satiated themselves; Litter elsewhere; Width of the steps; Cementing of the steps; All suggesting  that the place sees a fair amout of public, including you   - Now about the Shopian-Rapes/Murders   - You asked why I am surprised. I am or would not be surprised if it was established that the Army Men (security forces) were responsible for the Shopian Rapes&Murders. Equally, I would not be surprised if it was established that the Islamic Terrorists or the so called Aazadi activists were responsible for the Shopian Rapes&Murders.   - I was surprised at the ease with which you implied that the Army Men (security forces)were the ones involved without there being any evidence for it.   - You have yourself mentioned it, and judging by equal (if not more) evidence from the past, it could very well be that the Islamic Terrorists or the so called Aazadi activists are responsible for the Shopian Rapes&Murders. Could it not be? Why then have you given vent to your suspicions directed at the Army (security forces) only?   - It would be idiotic for anyone to proclaim that the Islamic Terrorists or the so called  Aazadi activists are responsible for the Shopian Rapes&Murders without any evidence for it. It would be as idiotic as someone (as you have) implying without any evidence that the  Army (security forces) have committed them   - Think about this, join me in the 'conspiracy room'. It would be logical to deduce that in order to keep the so called Aazadi fires burning, the Shopian Rapes&Murders were committed by the Islamic Terrorists or the so called Aazadi activists.    - My position has not changed. I continue to strongly condemned such acts, either by security forces or by militants. I in fact subscribe to this that those in positions of Power & Authority carry a greater responsibility and their abusing the Power & Authority invested in them should receive a larger quantum of punishment as compared to any criminal individual or group   - Your 'submission' reading (of your pics) was interesting.   - Your 'conflict and rape' information pieces were educative   Kshmendra    --- On Mon, 6/15/09, Inder Salim wrote: From: Inder Salim Subject: Re: [Reader-list] 'Men in uniform are Kashmir's problem, not solution' To: "reader-list" Date: Monday, June 15, 2009, 8:29 PM Thanks Dear Kshmendra the two sleeping dogs in the all the four images are witness to what i photographed with maximum zoom of my camera . It is south of Kashmir , few years back. may be army jawans were helping the two girls sitting on the stones. But note, in the third image the two girls are sitting on stones, but iin foruth image, in front of two army jawans one can see how their position shifts from stones to the  ground. There is a clear sumbission, which speaks a lot. What has happened in Shopain, as we all know is not first time, but many numerous tragic things have happened and security forces were found directly involved in the acts, whether punished later on or not is another point. And so i guess,  it is almost natural to see some echo in the images, echo of what has happened recently in Shopain.  Why it has surpirsed you this time, i remember, in the past you have strongly condemned such acts, either by security forces or by militans.  i respect that Here, i remember, Gh. Mohd. Shad ( my teacher at Anantnag College ) read a  kashmiri poem  few years back at Sahitya Academy  NewDelhi, HEADS AND TAILS . which narratted the horrible acts commited by both security forces and militants. He read his own translation in englith at the same time. It is a well known fact, even before 1990 that Army jawans used to call or visit women from neighbouring contonmnent village areas. I know it becasue i used to go to Nawgam village to see my aunt. Nawgam is one of biggest cantonmnent areas in South of kashmir. But after 1990, something else added to that. which we explicity call Mass rape. Posh Pura tragedy is one such example. Yes, we are not talking here about the crimes commited by militants. They are numerous, and we all condemn that. Even the List has condemned the atorcities commited by militants or with militant looking guys. We know both Hindu and Muslim women suffered terribly on this account. yes, about the army: in ancient Greek, it was a part of traiing programme to rape the young boys. ....and during war, its implementation meant the necesary  penetration into  the enemy's territory. They believed so. One of the ways to humiliate the enemy has been to rape its women folk. Once, the winning army used to demolish the places of worships besides looting their property and raping women. But, humiliating women is still practicted, silently, unofficially during wars in third world coutires. Bangladesh women suffered terribley in 1971. and so have millions of women suffered during war, and silently after that. it is sad, truly sad. i am moved to tears even while talking about all this. I beleive, it was Japan who supplied Korean women from conquered territories to satisfy their men in uniforms. Few years, back my wife was travelling  alone from Jammu to Delhi, and she had her reservation, but it happened to a full of   Army Jawans. The noble TT changed her reservation to civilan coach. He told my wife that it is better to change I know some retired Army jawans, and it is very intereting to listen to  anedotes during service....... and how they satiate their lust by raping Goats, buffaloes, mreres and hens even. it is terrible to think even. so love is On Mon, Jun 15, 2009 at 7:39 PM, Kshmendra Kaul wrote: > Dear Inder > > Something has been troubling me about your pics from > http://indersalim.livejournal.com/37697.html . I thought it best to ask you. > > You have titled the panel " A short story in four images from Kashmir" and > found in your "story" echoes of the Shopian Rapes. > > 1. You are suggesting that the Army Men (security guys) were responsible for > the Shopian Rapes. I thought guilt had to be established by evidence. Or, > are there varying ethical standards for different situations? > > 2. Pardon my asking this about your "story board". Where in Kashmir is this? > The one you call a 'local' does not appear to be a Kashmiri. The "girls" do > not appear to be "Kashmiri" girls. Would appreciate your feedback > > Kshmendra > > --- On Sun, 6/14/09, Inder Salim wrote: > > From: Inder Salim > Subject: Re: [Reader-list] 'Men in uniform are Kashmir's problem, not > solution' > To: "reader-list" > Date: Sunday, June 14, 2009, 4:27 PM > > thanks  for forward Mr . kapoor > > ... with army jawans it is a must to teach the enemy a lesson. the > lessons are usually carried out by SPECAAL OPERATION GROUPS who are > beyond the purview of Law or a simple enquiry. So needless of say > that why we have witnessed a large scale disaappearances of Men in > Kashmir, eliminated without trail often. > > A  HoD of Kashmir University , a close friend, was picked once by Army > in Anantnag and released after three days, that too because he managed > to arrange a meeting with a senior officer in Bahinal prison who > accidentally hapened to listen to his request, and was  subsequenlty > released. .Normally, it is the angry Jawan in uniform who controls the > street or an area and decides on the spot about the the person in > sight.  Rape is one such lesson. > > > I was once myself caught by Army jawans in Srinagar, it was cufew > time, and even after showing my I.card i was punished to perform Murga > ( chicken ) and then made to run..  The 'run' word those days meant to > shoot the runner from behind and label him as offender of curfew or a > terrorist etc. > > The men in uniform are supposed to be orderly, a friend in kashmir > told me once, while he agreed that militants usually come from weired > backgrounds and can do many bad things,.But, unfortunately Army record > in kahmir is very very poor in this regard, > > Few years back i happened to photograph two army jawans, a local man > and two girls, I could not dare to go near, and photographed them from > a distance. may click to see: > > http://indersalim.livejournal.com/37697.html > > Ir echoes what has happned in Shopian, recently,  alas. > > The Army should withdraw from towns and villages, without a second thought > > Kashmir issue has nothing to do with this unwanted  amry presence in > each and every corner of  kashmir. > > love > is > > > > > > > > On Sun, Jun 14, 2009 at 5:27 AM, Harsh Kapoor wrote: >> >> http://tinyurl.com/muga5v >> >> 'Men in uniform are Kashmir's problem, not solution' >> >> by Sanjay Kak >> (The Times of India, 14 Jun 2009) >> >> Those who use the media filter to try to understand what is happening >> in Kashmir should realize they're looking at a shadow play. A curtain >> lies >> between events and us. What is played out on the screen depends on who >> manipulates the sources of light. >> >> Last summer, the Valley was overwhelmed by several months of >> unprecedented non-violent public protest. It was triggered by the >> complicated Amarnath land issue, but on the streets the people were >> saying "Hum kya chahte? Azadi!" We are hearing this again this summer, >> triggered by the rape and murder of two young women from Shopian in >> south Kashmir. Only the stone deaf could miss the cry. >> >> Between these two summer uprisings came the Assembly elections of >> December. As everyone braced for a boycott, people did turn out to >> vote. This surprise turnout was presented as nothing short of a >> miracle and we were informed that this was "a vote for Indian >> democracy". Those who wondered why people who had braved bullets only >> a month ago should suddenly queue up to vote were reminded that >> Kashmiris were an unpredictable, even contrary, people. >> >> In fact, there is a frightening consistence about the Kashmiri chant >> for decades: "Hum kya chahte? Azadi!" Protests have begun for all >> sorts of reasons but they are a manifestation of the simmering anger >> always close to the surface. >> >> The current round of protests were given a head-start by the >> distinctly amateur vacillations of the state chief minister, not least >> his puzzling shifts on what may have actually happened to Nilofar, 22, >> and her sister-in-law Asiya, 17, on the night of May 29. >> Well-intentioned though he may be, Omar Abdullah seems very badly >> advised, or else possessed of a political death-wish. >> >> In its election campaign the National Conference made a point of >> underlining that it was seeking a mandate for development, for bijli, >> sadak, pani. It made no claim to settling masla-e-Kashmir or the >> Kashmir issue. But once the elections were over, they went along with >> the Indian establishment, which trumpeted the turnout as a decisive >> mandate in India's favour. The inability of Omar Abdullah's government >> to reach out to the people of the Valley in the past fortnight is a >> timely reminder of the dangers of that delusion. In just a little over >> 10 days, the protests have damaged the patina of normalcy that the >> election 'success' painted on a deeply troubled situation. >> >> In the middle of all this, but almost buried by events, the J&K police >> announced the arrest of Constable Nazir Ahmed of the India Reserve >> Police battalion for allegedly raping a minor girl in Baramulla in >> north Kashmir. (They admitted the constable was a former Personal >> Security Officer of Ghulam Hassan Mir, legislator and former >> minister). Days after the incident, a scuffle between the families of >> the victim and the policeman led to the tragic killing of the victim's >> grandmother. >> >> Both incidents of the past fortnight must be placed next to one from a >> few years ago, when the infamous "sex scandal" led to huge protests, >> bringing Srinagar to a grinding halt. That was a tawdry tale of the >> sexual exploitation of vulnerable women, including the prostitution of >> minors. It was on a massive scale, with the involvement of politicians >> , senior bureaucrats, police and paramilitary officers. The scandal >> exposed the ugly networks of power and oppression, which prop up the >> structures of control in Kashmir. It also laid bare the vulnerability >> of women all over the Valley, prey to the brutal arrogance unleashed >> by 20 years of intense militarization and unbridled power. >> >> It's a good time to remember that the acquisition of land for the >> Amarnath yatra was only the spark that set off last summer's protests. >> But the real fuel was widespread resentment about the fact that >> thousands of acres of agricultural, orchard and forest land is under >> occupation by the army and paramilitary forces, housing their feared >> camps and cantonments and vast logistics bases. The Kashmiris' >> behaviour then turns out to be underpinned by a fairly straightforward >> political reason: we don't need to delve into their fragile 'psyche'. >> >> This week, the lights behind the curtain are being moved around to >> give the illusion of change: the CRPF's duties are to be handed over >> to the J&K police. If true, this will need massive local police >> recruitment and give a disturbing new twist to the Indian government's >> promise of employment to young Kashmiris. (However, from the >> Establishment's point of view, a policeman in every home may well be a >> solution to Kashmir's troubles.) >> >> But this change of guard will not alter the lives of ordinary people. >> They do not care if the oppressive figure of the soldier wears the >> uniform of the Indian Army, its paramilitary forces, or is their >> neighbour in brand new fatigues. Such shallow transformation is not >> new: people remember the 'disbanding' of the dreaded Special >> Operations Group, which was simply merged into regular police >> operations; or the highly public way in which the CRPF replaced the >> BSF in Srinagar, leaving the countryside in the Army's iron grip. >> >> This summer's protest is not just about the rape and murder of two >> women, the violation of human rights, or even the repeal of some >> draconian law. The shadow play must not distract us from the real >> issue, which is the extraordinary and intolerable militarization of >> Kashmir. >> >> Sanjay Kak is a filmmaker whose most recent documentary >> 'Jashn-e-Azadi' explores the conflict in Kashmir >> _________________________________________ >> reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. >> Critiques & Collaborations >> To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with >> subscribe in the subject header. >> To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list >> List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> > > > -- > > http://indersalim.livejournal.com > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with subscribe > in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> > -- http://indersalim.livejournal.com _________________________________________ reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. Critiques & Collaborations To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with subscribe in the subject header. To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> From rakesh.rnbdj at gmail.com Wed Jun 17 18:29:41 2009 From: rakesh.rnbdj at gmail.com (Rakesh Iyer) Date: Wed, 17 Jun 2009 18:29:41 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] "The demise of Pakistan is inevitable" In-Reply-To: <594106.70177.qm@web57207.mail.re3.yahoo.com> References: <594106.70177.qm@web57207.mail.re3.yahoo.com> Message-ID: Dear Kshamendra The Ram Mandir movement was based upon generous donation of money by people across the country. Similarly, donations are asked for by people collecting chandas in the name of temple construction or masjid construction or even church construction. And at least the Jamaad-ud-Dawa is being honest when it says the money collected in jihad is being used to train jihadis. The Bajrang Dal and the RSS misused funds obtained during the Gujarat earthquake to organize post-Godhra mayhem, which is why people were questioning the appointment of Sonal Shah on a public post in the US. Similarly, the Ram Mandir is still not built, so where have the funds for the construction of that temple gone? Regards Rakesh From rakesh.rnbdj at gmail.com Wed Jun 17 18:32:58 2009 From: rakesh.rnbdj at gmail.com (Rakesh Iyer) Date: Wed, 17 Jun 2009 18:32:58 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] 'Men in uniform are Kashmir's problem, not solution' In-Reply-To: <347408.93876.qm@web57203.mail.re3.yahoo.com> References: <347408.93876.qm@web57203.mail.re3.yahoo.com> Message-ID: Dear Kshamendra The issue is beyond Shopian here. The army has been involved in human right violations which comes across in numerous fact finding reports by human right commissions based nationally and internationally. At least as a democratic nation and a responsible nation, shouldn't we withdraw the AFSPA from Kashmir, even if we can't remove the army from there for protecting our territorial integrity and sovereignty? That's my question. The problem is political. It can't and shouldn't be solved by any kind of military forces, for these can only be a temporary solution to a permanent problem. Regards Rakesh From rakesh.rnbdj at gmail.com Wed Jun 17 18:32:58 2009 From: rakesh.rnbdj at gmail.com (Rakesh Iyer) Date: Wed, 17 Jun 2009 18:32:58 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] 'Men in uniform are Kashmir's problem, not solution' In-Reply-To: <347408.93876.qm@web57203.mail.re3.yahoo.com> References: <347408.93876.qm@web57203.mail.re3.yahoo.com> Message-ID: Dear Kshamendra The issue is beyond Shopian here. The army has been involved in human right violations which comes across in numerous fact finding reports by human right commissions based nationally and internationally. At least as a democratic nation and a responsible nation, shouldn't we withdraw the AFSPA from Kashmir, even if we can't remove the army from there for protecting our territorial integrity and sovereignty? That's my question. The problem is political. It can't and shouldn't be solved by any kind of military forces, for these can only be a temporary solution to a permanent problem. Regards Rakesh From kshmendra2005 at yahoo.com Wed Jun 17 18:45:25 2009 From: kshmendra2005 at yahoo.com (Kshmendra Kaul) Date: Wed, 17 Jun 2009 06:15:25 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Reader-list] "The demise of Pakistan is inevitable" Message-ID: <235866.93847.qm@web57203.mail.re3.yahoo.com> Dear Rakesh   I still disagree with your contention that "the aam aadmi in Pakistan in general has no concern with this agenda of the extremists.". You have to be informed on the various means of collection of funds in Pakistan with the expressed purpose of "Jihad" stated to shed your belief.   The people who contribute such funds in Pakistan are not 'fooled' into doing so. They are very well aware of what they are contributing for. Just as in India those who contribute funds that finance "Hindutva Terrorism" activities. The 'fooled into contributing' route through Temples, Mosques, Madrassas are only a part of the financing network.   On both sides of the border the 'elite' are not just the Governments, Militaries and some Journalists, Artists and People-to-People contact NGOs. They strategise themselves. They play games.   The 'hates' are embedded in the 'common people'. Anyone interested in Peace, Love and Amity between the two countries will have to tackle that 'embedded hate' and neutralise the source for such indoctrination.    We have veered away from "The demise of Pakistan is inevitable" piece. As I wrote earlier, I do not think that is a valid projection, nor would I want it to be so.   Drop a nuclear-bomb? Not even as rhetoric or as a joke would I consider that.   Kshmendra --- On Wed, 6/17/09, Rakesh Iyer wrote: From: Rakesh Iyer Subject: Re: [Reader-list] "The demise of Pakistan is inevitable" To: "Kshmendra Kaul" Cc: "sarai list" Date: Wednesday, June 17, 2009, 5:45 PM Dear Kshamendra I wanted to convey that the aam aadmi in Pakistan in general has no concern with this agenda of the extremists. And the section of the people who have been fooled in this are those who have suffered due to the economic, social and political unempowerment of the masses in Pakistan (which is also the issue in India but on a relatively smaller scale). As Anupam jee said himself, Bajrang Dal is equally a problem on this side of the border as the Jamaat-ud-Dawa is. Hence, it's time that we solve this problem but keeping in mind that it's the Pakistani army and the Pakistani elites we have to counter, not the common man. Otherwise, the only solution is to drop a nuclear bomb on Pakistan, as Simi Garewal had herself said. How many are willing to consider that? Regards Rakesh From kshmendra2005 at yahoo.com Wed Jun 17 18:52:17 2009 From: kshmendra2005 at yahoo.com (Kshmendra Kaul) Date: Wed, 17 Jun 2009 06:22:17 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Reader-list] "The demise of Pakistan is inevitable" Message-ID: <366310.71282.qm@web57207.mail.re3.yahoo.com> Dear Rakesh   Your point is interesting. This that Jamaat Ud Dawa is honest and Bajrang Dal and RSS are dishonest. That is within the construct furnished by you.   I have absolutely no idea who collected how much for Gujarat Quake or for Ram Mandir and to which extent and where the funds were used  and misused. If you have information on it, that could be useful for a neat expose.   K                   --- On Wed, 6/17/09, Rakesh Iyer wrote: From: Rakesh Iyer Subject: Re: [Reader-list] "The demise of Pakistan is inevitable" To: "Kshmendra Kaul" Cc: "sarai list" , "anupam chakravartty" Date: Wednesday, June 17, 2009, 6:29 PM Dear Kshamendra The Ram Mandir movement was based upon generous donation of money by people across the country. Similarly, donations are asked for by people collecting chandas in the name of temple construction or masjid construction or even church construction. And at least the Jamaad-ud-Dawa is being honest when it says the money collected in jihad is being used to train jihadis. The Bajrang Dal and the RSS misused funds obtained during the Gujarat earthquake to organize post-Godhra mayhem, which is why people were questioning the appointment of Sonal Shah on a public post in the US. Similarly, the Ram Mandir is still not built, so where have the funds for the construction of that temple gone? Regards Rakesh From kshmendra2005 at yahoo.com Wed Jun 17 19:22:05 2009 From: kshmendra2005 at yahoo.com (Kshmendra Kaul) Date: Wed, 17 Jun 2009 06:52:05 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Reader-list] 'Men in uniform are Kashmir's problem, not solution' Message-ID: <236554.96736.qm@web57206.mail.re3.yahoo.com> Dear Rakesh   There are many issues beyond Shopian. But we were talking about Shopian Rapes&Murders.   We were not talking about the Army (security forces) being involved in human right violations.   When you continue to link the two then you also are guilty of implying that the Shopian Rapes&Murders are the handiwork of the Army (Security forces). As I wrote earlier it may well be so but there is no evidence to suggest it.   So what does that make you or Inder? India basher or conspiracy theorists. Where is the attitude of "Not-Guilty" till proven otherwise?   I am tiring of repeating myself but alongwith with Army (security forces) in Kashmir having been under the scanner for committing "human rights violations", there is equal (if not more) evidence of comparable credibilty about the "human rights violations" by the Islamic Terrorists and so called Aazadi activists.   If suspicions have to be levied then both are equally deserving.    Coming to your question about AFSPA. Should it be withdrawn? Yes it should be. Such a Law should not be needed anywhere in India.   When should AFSPA be withdrawn? I have no blasted idea.   The core of the problem in Kashmir is NOT Political as suggested by you. It is COMMUNAL. But you have to know the pre and post 1947 history of Kashmir to understand that. You have to know about the so called Aazadi Movement(s). You have to know about Pakistan and the role played by Pakistan in Kashmir. You have to know about the pre-1989 and post-1989 happenings in Kashmir. You have to know about the utterances of people like Maulvi Omar Farooq, Yasin Malik, Syed Geelani, Syed Salahuddin.   Here is a question for you. Do you think that the Constitution of J&K should include the term "Secular" in the Preamble of the Constitution? When do you think it should be done? When do do you think it will be done?   Kshmendra --- On Wed, 6/17/09, Rakesh Iyer wrote: From: Rakesh Iyer Subject: Re: [Reader-list] 'Men in uniform are Kashmir's problem, not solution' To: "Kshmendra Kaul" Cc: "reader-list" , "Inder Salim" Date: Wednesday, June 17, 2009, 6:32 PM Dear Kshamendra The issue is beyond Shopian here. The army has been involved in human right violations which comes across in numerous fact finding reports by human right commissions based nationally and internationally. At least as a democratic nation and a responsible nation, shouldn't we withdraw the AFSPA from Kashmir, even if we can't remove the army from there for protecting our territorial integrity and sovereignty? That's my question. The problem is political. It can't and shouldn't be solved by any kind of military forces, for these can only be a temporary solution to a permanent problem. Regards Rakesh From rakesh.rnbdj at gmail.com Wed Jun 17 19:51:30 2009 From: rakesh.rnbdj at gmail.com (Rakesh Iyer) Date: Wed, 17 Jun 2009 19:51:30 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] 'Men in uniform are Kashmir's problem, not solution' In-Reply-To: <236554.96736.qm@web57206.mail.re3.yahoo.com> References: <236554.96736.qm@web57206.mail.re3.yahoo.com> Message-ID: Dear Kshamendra My response is as follows: 1) My arguments are not for linking the Army and the Shopian incident in the way you are reporting. Yes, we are talking about Shopian, but I also talked about the issue lying beyond it as well. Therefore, while I welcome your argument that AFSPA should be removed, I equally welcome the point that until the Army is proven guilty in this particular incident, one should not forget the kind of violations the Indian army has indulged in Kashmir. Therefore, my straight point is that AFSPA should go and sooner or later, the army must also go. And I haven't stated that Army has done Shopian, so please refrain from giving me tags or labels. Please don't assume things I never stated. 2) You have mentioned about Azadi activists and jihadis. Killing of innocents can't be termed jihad, and this is something many Muslim scholars have often repeated in different statements at different times. Any kind of violence or human right violation, whether it be unleashed by the JKLF, the Army, the jihadis, or any other organization is wrong and must be condemned in the strongest terms. Therefore, there is no question of any double standard. Anyways, as I see it, members in this forum have often repeated the fact that violence against any innocent can't and shouldn't be tolerated. But for some, it seems that they forget this message which has gone on this forum again and again in different threads. May be they should think about reading past threads on this forum. 3) Communal is also political. It's one of the forms of doing politics. Therefore, the problem is still very much political, though now you have mentioned the character of the politics being played. Any political problem can be based on environment, on rights and freedoms of people, on issues like bijli-sadak-pani etc. etc. You are saying the issue is based on religious communities. Even then, the issue remains political. And political issues require political solutions. Simply conducting state elections in J & K with 100% voting can't solve the problem, if after 6 months again a certain section of people (who are relatively large in number, though may be not in majority) come out on the streets demanding azadi. Why not talk to them, instead of jailing them or imposing curfew? 4) For your question. After the word 'secular' was added in the Indian constitution (I think at the insistence of Indira Gandhi), we have had more communal riots in India, than after independence but before this incident. Therefore, we dont' need to be secular constitutionally, we need to be secular mentally. More importantly, secular is the problem of the elites. Let us be generous enough not to fight with each other in the name of religion. Automatically we turn secular. Is that a big deal? And if you want to know when, I don't know when it will be added in the J & K constitution. And I hardly care if it's not added. But I have problems if the society is not democratic and tolerant. Regards Rakesh From bawazainab79 at gmail.com Wed Jun 17 21:38:15 2009 From: bawazainab79 at gmail.com (Zainab Bawa) Date: Wed, 17 Jun 2009 21:38:15 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Talk: Social Media for Mobilisation--Call for questions In-Reply-To: <4A38EFAD.2060909.160@cis-india.org> References: <4A38EFAD.2060909.160@cis-india.org> Message-ID: The Centre for Internet and Society, Bangalore, announces a CHANGE IN DATE AND TIMING for Peter Griffin and Dina Mehta's talk on using Social Media for Mobilisation. The talk will be held at the CIS office on Friday, 19 June, at 6.30 pm. ****If attending, please email bawazainab79 at gmail.com with any specific questions on social media and activism that you may want to discuss at the event.**** Entry is free and registration is not required. For more details on the event and speakers, please see the link or the abstract below. * Using Social Media for Mobilisation -- Friday, 19 June, 2009; 6.30-8.00 pm http://www.cis-india.org/events/using-social-media-for-mobilisation Panel discussion with Dina Mehta and Peter Griffin For some time now, blogs, facebook and other forms of social media have been used extensively for rallying people around an issue or a cause. However, what makes some of these campaigns more successful than others? Does the workability of social media for mobilisation depend on the manner in which information is designed and/or disseminated? This panel brings together two well-known names from the world of social media, Dina Mehta and Peter Griffin, to explore "meme engineering" and understand what makes some forms of use of social media more effective than others. * Speakers Dina Mehta is a founder and Managing Director of Mosoci India. She has spent twenty years specializing in qualitative research and ethnography. She is at the forefront of technology trend research in India and works with a global portfolio of companies; including learning journeys, and immersions for innovation teams. She brings her unique perspective to understanding the emerging social aspects of new technology and the impact of new media on youth and mobility. Her work has led her to study the impact of technology in rural markets, follow trend-setting youth in urban settings, dig deep into motivations and possible triggers across a wide range of demographic and psychographic groups, explore and identify underlying value propositions and key drivers/barriers in several categories. Peter Griffin is a well-known blogger and has been involved with a number of collaborative projects, including the South-East Asia Earthquake and Tsunami blog (also known as TsunamiHelp), MumbaiHelp, Think Bombay, and the WorldWideHelp group and its associated projects. All of these project have been concerned with bringing together the web and free tools on one hand, and concerned web natives and public goodwill on the other, to assist in disaster relief. Peter is also the co-founder, joint editor and co-moderator of the writing community, Caferati. He is currently the Special Features Editor with Forbes Magazine, India. * Venue Centre for Internet and Society, No. D2, 3rd Floor, Sheriff Chambers, 14, Cunningham Road, Bangalore - 560052 (Telephone: 080 4092 6283) ----- -- Zainab Bawa Ph.D. Student and Independent Researcher Gaining Ground ... http://zainab.freecrow.org http://cis-india.org/research/cis-raw/histories-of-the-internet/transparency-and-politics From anansi1 at earthlink.net Thu Jun 18 09:53:13 2009 From: anansi1 at earthlink.net (Paul D. Miller) Date: Thu, 18 Jun 2009 00:23:13 -0400 (EDT) Subject: [Reader-list] Tudeh Party of Iran: Election Statement Message-ID: <30799975.1245298994194.JavaMail.root@mswamui-thinleaf.atl.sa.earthlink.net> I just thought I'd pass this along. Pretty wild, eh? Paul Coup d'etat of a deceitful and backward regime against the will of millions of Iranians Millions of rigged ballots for Ahmadinejad Statement of the Central Committee of Tudeh Party of Iran June 13, 2009 http://www.tudehpartyiran.org/cc-June2009-english.pdf Our vigilant compatriots! Your great participation in tens of millions has once again turned the tenth presidential election into a referendum against the backward-looking and deceitful regime. Million of Iranians stood in long queues holding green flags as a sign of protest against the bankrupt despotic rule of the Spiritual Leader and his cronies. This has shaken the mendacious regime to such an extent that its leaders, fearful of the repetition of 2nd Khordad (Khatami's election in 1997), have ordered their repressive forces in the major cities to crush the will of the majority by organising a quasi- military coup. The attacks by the security forces against the thousands of young people pouring into the streets protesting against the regime's charade, along with the forced closure of Mousavi's campaign headquarter and combined with the threats issued by the Revolutionary Guards to suppress any protest, are all indicators of a heavy defeat suffered by the regime's leadership on the 12th of June. Both presidential candidates, Mousavi and Karroubi, have declared the poll's results as null and void, stating that they will not leave the stage. The obvious poll rigging and fixing of millions of ballots in Ahmadinejad's name which was followed by Khamenei's confirmations of the election results shows that the spiritual leader and his armed militias are the organisers of the state sponsored violence against the will of millions of Iranians. This electoral charade indeed points to a turning point in the way the regime intends to deal with its opponents and it clearly demonstrates that even the so-called "insider critics" will not be allowed even limited political activities. Khamenei's threatening statement is effectively a warning to the presidential candidates, demanding their surrender in the face of the reaction and to abandon the arena. In recent weeks the Tudeh Party of Iran has repeatedly warned against the sinister plans of the repressive forces preparing to crush the people's will. We asked all national forces and those struggling for liberty to unite in a common cause in opposing the regime's plans. We must not let the powerful might of the people, which has enraged and petrified the reactionaries, to be eroded and must prevent people's retreat in disillusionment, giving the arena back to the reactionary forces. All social and political forces of the country should declare the poll's results as void and use all means to voice their protests against this deception perpetrated by the Spiritual Leader and his armed cronies. By broadening and organising the struggle we must put the ruling regime under pressure. Accepting these election results would be a betrayal of the people's vote and would be tantamount to collusion with a deceitful and backward regime. Our vigilant compatriots! The rulers of this regime have ruled by brute force and by betraying the goals of the Revolution, now they are about to carry out a coup d'etat against the people. The powerful presence of millions of Iranians and their protest can thwart this disgraceful machination and save our country from a serious danger. From ambarien at yahoo.co.uk Thu Jun 18 10:13:09 2009 From: ambarien at yahoo.co.uk (ambarien qadar) Date: Thu, 18 Jun 2009 04:43:09 +0000 (GMT) Subject: [Reader-list] Four Women and a Room: 2nd International Doc Fest, Kerela. Message-ID: <602266.37120.qm@web24108.mail.ird.yahoo.com> Hi, If you are in Thiruvananthapuram, please come for the screening of my film 'Four Women and a Room'(documentary, 42 minutes, english subtitles)at The 2nd International Documentary and Short Film Festival of Kerela, 09. Date and Venue: Friday, 19th June, 9.45 amThe Sree Theaters.For more details/location maps etc, please go to www.keralafilm.com.  Cast and Crew: Actors: Padma Damodaran        Priyanka Singh Chauhan Camera: Shakeb Ahmed Sound: GirjaShaker Vohra Location Sound: Balbir Singh RawatAdditional Editing: Anil Junior Direction, Script and Editing: Ambarien Al Qadar Producers: The Public Service Broadcasting Trust, New Delhi.  Synopsis: Late into pregnancy, Mili is confounded with a range of unknown emotions. Having gone through endless rituals of matchmaking, Latika is wondering about her desire to be a biological mother. The dreamscape of the filmmaker throws up images and associations of a hospital visited sometime back and reminds her of meeting Kalpana, a fictitious character who might have undergone a sex selective abortion. Combining techniques of documentary and fiction, Four Women and a Room unfolds through the metaphor of the labour room and the conscious and subconscious resonances it has in the lives of its four protagonists. Set against the complex social history of how abortions came to be legalized in India as population control imperatives rather than a pro-choice legislation , the film raises crucial questions about debates around sex selective abortions, marriage and motherhood within South Asian contexts while making a strong case for the agency of women. CheersAmbarien Al Qadar From chandni.parekh at gmail.com Thu Jun 18 12:47:18 2009 From: chandni.parekh at gmail.com (Chandni Parekh) Date: Thu, 18 Jun 2009 12:47:18 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Needed: Gujarati to English translators/transcribers In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: ---------- Forwarded message ---------- From: Neil Patel Date: 2009/6/18 Subject: Gujarati translation/transcription Dear Chandni, I was given your contact by Samir who suggested I get in touch with you about some transcription work I need done. To give you some background on the work, I am a PhD student at Stanford, doing research in rural India on mobile information systems. Last summer, I designed and deployed a voice-based question and answer forum for farmers in Gujarat to get agricultural advice over the phone. I deployed the system in partnership with IBM Research India and Development Support Centerin Ahmedabad. The system was launched as a 5-month pilot starting this January. Over that time, there were over 600 questions and 400 answers recorded to the system by 50 farmers. This summer, I want to analyze the questions and answers to understand how the system was used so that we can re-design it to better fit the needs of farmers. DSC is planning a full launch of the system for thousands of farmers later this year. In order to do the analysis, I want to have all of the questions and answers translated and transcribed from Gujarati to English. I estimate there is 15-20 hours of content in total. I have a budget to pay for the services, and I want a high-quality job done. I would like the work completed by July 31st. I would appreciate your suggestions for getting it done. Take care and thanks in advance for your help. Best, Neil From chandni.parekh at gmail.com Thu Jun 18 13:53:48 2009 From: chandni.parekh at gmail.com (Chandni Parekh) Date: Thu, 18 Jun 2009 13:53:48 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Talk on the Portrayal of Psychiatric Disorder in the Arts, June 19, Delhi In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Excerpts: the sixth talk of the series *“The Canvas Askew†* an year long series of interactions on concepts, confusions and controversies in mental health. Panel discussions Brief presentations by *-Mr Amandeep Sandhu -Ms Daman Singh -Mr Syed Amjad Ali, & -Dr Parvez Imam * http://psychologynews.posterous.com/talk-on-the-portrayal-of-psychiatric-disorder From akmalik45 at yahoo.com Thu Jun 18 14:25:38 2009 From: akmalik45 at yahoo.com (A.K. Malik) Date: Thu, 18 Jun 2009 01:55:38 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Reader-list] Shahidul Alam detained by Indian Border Security Force Message-ID: <359032.2955.qm@web39105.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Dear Mr Agarwal, Shahidul Alam may be a well known and > fine photographer and artist, who has done much to support > the cause of photography, but does it give him a license to cross over to our border and you expect a poor BSF jawan to know him personally and not arrest him because he is a well known photographer. Even I did not know until the post that he was a well known photographer.Someone had written that he was called over to our side and arrested as if the writer had been seeing the entire episode.Media people get away with irregularities because those supposed to take action get scared because they belong to media.Law is law and is supposed to be faceless.Indian side is still very considerate. However as per the current posts, Shahidul Alam has been released by our Security forces showing a humane face and been arrested by BDR. I had expressed my view in a very restrained and general way,no one should have any objection to it,otherwise it is no use being a part of the discussions. Regards, (A.K.MALIK) --- On Wed, 6/17/09, Ravi Agarwal wrote: > From: Ravi Agarwal > Subject: Re: [Reader-list] Shahidul Alam detained by Indian Border Security Force > To: "A.K. Malik" > Cc: "Rajendra Bhat Uppinangadi" , "Sarai List" > Date: Wednesday, June 17, 2009, 3:54 PM > Dear all, > > I am not aware of the details of the case, besides what I > have read, but know that Shahidul Alam is a well known and > fine photographer and artist, who has done much to support > the cause of photography from a Southern perspective, though > his organisation. His work is well known. I think that I > would find it hard to beleive that he is doing something > that needs him to be detained by any police. Many years > ago, I too unwittingly crossed the India Bangaldesh border > without realising it. > > > In any case, we should not use this as a volleying point of > our politics, whatever they may be. We need to be restrained > in talking about people we do not know, without knowing any > details of specifics, and I believe any restraint of > people's right to express and freely so, needs to be > questioned and resisted, no matter what point of view they > represent. > > > There is a plea to protest his detention, and that is what > needs to be engaged with, nothing else. If people do not > support that, they do not have to. > > best > ravi agarwal > > On Wed, Jun 17, 2009 at 1:42 PM, > A.K. Malik > wrote: > > > > Dear Rajenji, > >              It is our perceptions which decide who > is guilty and who is innocent. The entire para-military > forces are dubbed rapists in Kashmir for a few stray > incidents.It seems some of us are more concerned about Human > Rights of Pakistanis,Bangladeshis than of our own > countrymen. > > > I do not know the complete facts of the case. If the BSF > has really crossed over to Bangladesh and detained Shahidul > Alam, then it is of concern. On the other hand if he has > illegally crossed over to our side and then was detained, > why anyone should bother unless it has been innocuous or > beyond the control of the person concerned. > > > Labelling the Border forces killers of innocent people > without any proof is really doing injustice to those who are > protecting our lives at the cost of their own lives. > > Regards, > > > > (A.K.MALIK) > > > > From pawan.durani at gmail.com Thu Jun 18 14:31:09 2009 From: pawan.durani at gmail.com (Pawan Durani) Date: Thu, 18 Jun 2009 14:31:09 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Shahidul Alam detained by Indian Border Security Force In-Reply-To: <359032.2955.qm@web39105.mail.mud.yahoo.com> References: <359032.2955.qm@web39105.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <6b79f1a70906180201p782c3345u16074d04d391a88d@mail.gmail.com> Correct .... Even I was not aware who this guy was . Imagine Raghu Rai sneaking into US from Mexico to cover a story of illegal border crossing ...... getting caught ....and then US being criticised for arresting a photographer of repute. I can't stop laughing. Pawan On Thu, Jun 18, 2009 at 2:25 PM, A.K. Malik wrote: > > Dear Mr Agarwal, > Shahidul Alam may be a well known and > > fine photographer and artist, who has done much to support > > the cause of photography, but does it give him a license to cross over to > our border and you expect a poor BSF jawan to know him personally and not > arrest him because he is a well known photographer. Even I did not know > until the post that he was a well known photographer.Someone had written > that he was called over to our side and arrested as if the writer had been > seeing the entire episode.Media people get away with irregularities because > those supposed to take action get scared because they belong to media.Law is > law and is supposed to be faceless.Indian side is still very considerate. > However as per the current posts, Shahidul Alam has been released by our > Security forces showing a humane face and been arrested by BDR. > I had expressed my view in a very restrained and general way,no one should > have any objection to it,otherwise it is no use being a part of the > discussions. > Regards, > > (A.K.MALIK) > > > --- On Wed, 6/17/09, Ravi Agarwal wrote: > > > From: Ravi Agarwal > > Subject: Re: [Reader-list] Shahidul Alam detained by Indian Border > Security Force > > To: "A.K. Malik" > > Cc: "Rajendra Bhat Uppinangadi" , "Sarai > List" > > Date: Wednesday, June 17, 2009, 3:54 PM > > Dear all, > > > > I am not aware of the details of the case, besides what I > > have read, but know that Shahidul Alam is a well known and > > fine photographer and artist, who has done much to support > > the cause of photography from a Southern perspective, though > > his organisation. His work is well known. I think that I > > would find it hard to beleive that he is doing something > > that needs him to be detained by any police. Many years > > ago, I too unwittingly crossed the India Bangaldesh border > > without realising it. > > > > > > In any case, we should not use this as a volleying point of > > our politics, whatever they may be. We need to be restrained > > in talking about people we do not know, without knowing any > > details of specifics, and I believe any restraint of > > people's right to express and freely so, needs to be > > questioned and resisted, no matter what point of view they > > represent. > > > > > > There is a plea to protest his detention, and that is what > > needs to be engaged with, nothing else. If people do not > > support that, they do not have to. > > > > best > > ravi agarwal > > > > On Wed, Jun 17, 2009 at 1:42 PM, > > A.K. Malik > > wrote: > > > > > > > > Dear Rajenji, > > > > It is our perceptions which decide who > > is guilty and who is innocent. The entire para-military > > forces are dubbed rapists in Kashmir for a few stray > > incidents.It seems some of us are more concerned about Human > > Rights of Pakistanis,Bangladeshis than of our own > > countrymen. > > > > > > I do not know the complete facts of the case. If the BSF > > has really crossed over to Bangladesh and detained Shahidul > > Alam, then it is of concern. On the other hand if he has > > illegally crossed over to our side and then was detained, > > why anyone should bother unless it has been innocuous or > > beyond the control of the person concerned. > > > > > > Labelling the Border forces killers of innocent people > > without any proof is really doing injustice to those who are > > protecting our lives at the cost of their own lives. > > > > Regards, > > > > > > > > (A.K.MALIK) > > > > > > > > > > > > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > subscribe in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: From kshmendra2005 at yahoo.com Thu Jun 18 15:39:24 2009 From: kshmendra2005 at yahoo.com (Kshmendra Kaul) Date: Thu, 18 Jun 2009 03:09:24 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Reader-list] "Application of mind more important than knowledge"-Bindeshwar Pathak (SULABH) Message-ID: <797921.35033.qm@web57205.mail.re3.yahoo.com>   Application of mind more important than knowledge 12 Jun 2009, 0609 hrs IST, Moinak Mitra , ET Bureau In 2003, Usha Chaumar cleaned toilets and often faced the ire of the upper castes in arid Alwar. Today, she speaks fluent English and co-ordinates the dayto-day affairs of the 50,000-strong Sulabh International with consummate ease. More significantly, the Brahmins and upper castes have taken a U-turn , with Usha recently presiding as the ‘best person’ at a Brahmin’s wedding in her hometown. To Bindeshwar Pathak, founder of Sulabh, that is social revolution. The 67 year-old Pathak has empowered a swathe of people from the scavenger caste by modernizing the age-old vocation of cleaning bucket toilets. What started out with humble beginnings in Patna 39 years ago is now a revolution. The Sulabh movement has developed 54 million toilets in rural areas and about 1.2 million pay-per-use toilets. Aptly then, Pathak is revered as the ‘toilet tsar’ of India, forming the country’s own toiletariat, if you will. As a sociology student, Pathak witnessed untouchability first-hand in all its hues and decided to do something about it. “Application of mind is more important than knowledge, and so I read the WHO-published Excreta Disposal in Rural Areas and Small Communities, which was essentially for rural areas with scavenging largely being an urban phenomenon in India. When the soil condition of a village is similar to that of a town, I thought, why can’t I apply a technology recommended for rural areas to the cities? That’s how I developed an alternative to the bucket latrine and popularised it as Sulabh,” says Pathak. In 1970, when Pathak established Sulabh , it was at the height of India’s socialist era, when non-profit organisations were being encouraged. He carefully treaded that path and started his NGO. Today, Sulabh’s revenues are raked in by monies received from municipalities to set up toilets on behalf of individual beneficiaries (10-15 % margins ), while another 10-15 % comes in from the pay-per-use public toilets, with an extra buck earned from cleaning government buildings and hospitals. However, Pathak says, “Sulabh does not have a business model but Sulabh’s model is good for business.” Nevertheless, managing 50,000 people is a task in itself. “A small mind cannot rule an empire. I believe in decentralisation that promotes faster work,” says Pathak, who has gradually given up managing the day-to-day operations of the organisation. “From 1970 to 1980, I was the secretary (of Sulabh), and from 1980 to 1986, I was chairman. Now I’m just the founder.” However, the “just founder” is hands-on even today with all the latest stats and developments within the group on his finger tips. Workers greet him with folded hands whenever he’s strolling in the 3,600-square yard Sulabh campus in Delhi’s outlying Palam area. That’s when he mentions the five-fold mantra that he believes is the behind the longevity of the organisation—Vision , Mission, Commitment, Capabilities and Efficiency . But though decision-making is left to the 15 members of the board of control, success really lies in the implementation of such decisions. “Every state has its own Sulabh chief executive and then it is further decentralised.” Pathak’s decentralised empire has come a long way — from its first pay cheque of Rs 500 in the early 70s to Rs 100 crore in revenues each year. Top B-Schools like Harvard, Stanford and Berkeley are now studying the Sulabh model. Pathak’s pet dream is to build a University of Sanitation in Gurgaon, along with a rash of innovations in the sustainable development space. Sulabh has evolved its own water conservation septic tank, biofertiliser and public toilets linked to biogas plants,besides developing duckweed for water treatment and an inhouse solid waste management system . The organisation also runs schools, community training centres and dispensaries, which all aid in fulfilling Pathak’s Gandhian dream of a more equitable India.   http://economictimes.indiatimes.com/Application-of-mind-more-important-than-knowledge/articleshow/4647161.cms   From kshmendra2005 at yahoo.com Thu Jun 18 16:01:40 2009 From: kshmendra2005 at yahoo.com (Kshmendra Kaul) Date: Thu, 18 Jun 2009 03:31:40 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Reader-list] MH-02-Z-8508 - THE RIKSHAW STORY Message-ID: <835490.51811.qm@web57206.mail.re3.yahoo.com> "THE RIKSHAW STORY"   (Suvendu Roy of Titan Industries shares his inspirational encounter with a rickshaw driver in Mumbai)   Last Sunday, my wife, kid and I had to travel to Andheri from Bandra. When I waved at a passing auto rickshaw, little did I expect that this ride would be any different.   As we set off, my eyes fell on a few magazines (kept in an aircraft style pouch) behind the driver’s back rest. I looked in front and there was a small TV. The driver had put on the Doordarshan channel. My wife and I looked at each other with disbelief and amusement. In front of me was a small first-aid box with cotton, dettol and some medicines. This was enough for me to realise that I was in a special vehicle. Then I looked around again, and discovered more -there was a radio, fire extinguisher, wall clock, calendar, and pictures and symbols of all faiths – from Islam and Christianity to Buddhism, Hinduism and Sikhism. There were also pictures of the heroes of 26/11- Kamte, Salaskar, Karkare and Unnikrishnan. I realised that not only my vehicle, but also my driver was special.   I started chatting with him and the initial sense of ridicule and disbelief gradually diminished. I gathered that he had been driving an auto rickshaw for the past 8-9 years; he had lost his job when his employer’s plastic company was shut down. He had two school-going children, and he drove from 8 in the morning till 10 at night. No break unless he was unwell. “Sahab, ghar mein baith ke TV dekh kar kya faida? Do paisa income karega toh future mein kaam aayega.” (Sir, what’s the use of simply sitting at home and watching TV? If I earn some income, then it will be useful in the future.)   We realised that we had come across a man who represents Mumbai – the spirit of work, the spirit of travel and the spirit of excelling in life. I asked him whether he does anything else as I figured that he did not have too much spare time. He said that he goes to an old age home for women in Andheri once a week or whenever he has some extra income, where he donates tooth brushes, toothpastes, soap, hair oil, and other items of daily use. He pointed out to a painted message below the meter that read: “25 per cent discount on metered fare for the handicapped. Free rides for blind passengers up to Rs50″. He also said that his auto was mentioned on Radio Mirchi twice by the station RJs. The Marathi press in Mumbai know about him and have written a few pieces on him and his vehicle.   My wife and I were struck with awe. The man was a HERO! A hero who deserves all our respect. I know that my son, once he grows up, will realise that we have met a genuine hero. He has put questions to me such as why should we help other people? I will try to keep this incident alive in his memory.   Our journey came to an end; 45 minutes of a lesson in humility, selflessness and of a hero-worshipping Mumbai – my temporary home. We disembarked, and all I could do was to pay him a tip that would hardly cover a free ride for a blind man.   (Its amazing there are ppl still alive like him in this world! I hope, one day, you too have a chance to meet Mr Sandeep Bachhe in his auto rickshaw – MH-02-Z-8508)    http://avinashjoshi.co.in/2009/04/13/the-rikshaw-story/   From ravig64 at gmail.com Thu Jun 18 16:02:21 2009 From: ravig64 at gmail.com (Ravi Agarwal) Date: Thu, 18 Jun 2009 16:02:21 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Shahidul Alam detained by Indian Border Security Force In-Reply-To: <6b79f1a70906180201p782c3345u16074d04d391a88d@mail.gmail.com> References: <359032.2955.qm@web39105.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <6b79f1a70906180201p782c3345u16074d04d391a88d@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: Dear all, Yes. even I do not think anyone has a clean chit to do anything one likes. I also agree if someone like Rahgu Rai, did something stupid for equally stupid reasons, there would be no reason to sympathize with him. That goes for Shaidul Alam as well. However my plea is that we do not know this as yet. My first reaction will not be to assume this, but would be to believe given someone's track record that this is not the case. I would assume that Raghu Rai had good reason to do what he was doing, and that by his work , we all would gain. I believe in the first instance that about Shaidul Alam as well, till I know better. We obviously do not share the same perception about how security forces act, whether in India, Bangladesh or the US or Mexico. Do you not think that we as normal people, who are not part of the state, should be a little skeptical about how those with power operate, not matter who they are? Is it also not true that power has the capacity to take away the person's individuality, and a simple cop, a jawan, or even a media person can become very 'non-human' with it? I personally think it is healthy for me to be a little skeptical. I also know of several instances where media people obtained information by sometimes crossing lines of various sorts. Many a scandal would not have come to light if that was not so. However as I said that lets wait to know the facts before we condemn someone, and also lets agree to disagree on our broad perceptions of security forces per se, which is not to say that they perform a very important job, which I think they do. It is fine if we have different views on this and I do not think that these are two mutually exclusive views. best ravi On Thu, Jun 18, 2009 at 2:31 PM, Pawan Durani wrote: > Correct .... Even I was not aware who this guy was . > > Imagine Raghu Rai sneaking into US from Mexico to cover a story of illegal > border crossing ...... getting caught ....and then US being criticised for > arresting a photographer of repute. > > I can't stop laughing. > > Pawan > > > > > On Thu, Jun 18, 2009 at 2:25 PM, A.K. Malik wrote: > >> >> Dear Mr Agarwal, >> Shahidul Alam may be a well known and >> > fine photographer and artist, who has done much to support >> > the cause of photography, but does it give him a license to cross over >> to our border and you expect a poor BSF jawan to know him personally and not >> arrest him because he is a well known photographer. Even I did not know >> until the post that he was a well known photographer.Someone had written >> that he was called over to our side and arrested as if the writer had been >> seeing the entire episode.Media people get away with irregularities because >> those supposed to take action get scared because they belong to media.Law is >> law and is supposed to be faceless.Indian side is still very considerate. >> However as per the current posts, Shahidul Alam has been released by our >> Security forces showing a humane face and been arrested by BDR. >> I had expressed my view in a very restrained and general way,no one should >> have any objection to it,otherwise it is no use being a part of the >> discussions. >> Regards, >> >> (A.K.MALIK) >> >> >> --- On Wed, 6/17/09, Ravi Agarwal wrote: >> >> > From: Ravi Agarwal >> > Subject: Re: [Reader-list] Shahidul Alam detained by Indian Border >> Security Force >> > To: "A.K. Malik" >> > Cc: "Rajendra Bhat Uppinangadi" , "Sarai >> List" >> > Date: Wednesday, June 17, 2009, 3:54 PM >> > Dear all, >> > >> > I am not aware of the details of the case, besides what I >> > have read, but know that Shahidul Alam is a well known and >> > fine photographer and artist, who has done much to support >> > the cause of photography from a Southern perspective, though >> > his organisation. His work is well known. I think that I >> > would find it hard to beleive that he is doing something >> > that needs him to be detained by any police. Many years >> > ago, I too unwittingly crossed the India Bangaldesh border >> > without realising it. >> > >> > >> > In any case, we should not use this as a volleying point of >> > our politics, whatever they may be. We need to be restrained >> > in talking about people we do not know, without knowing any >> > details of specifics, and I believe any restraint of >> > people's right to express and freely so, needs to be >> > questioned and resisted, no matter what point of view they >> > represent. >> > >> > >> > There is a plea to protest his detention, and that is what >> > needs to be engaged with, nothing else. If people do not >> > support that, they do not have to. >> > >> > best >> > ravi agarwal >> > >> > On Wed, Jun 17, 2009 at 1:42 PM, >> > A.K. Malik >> > wrote: >> > >> > >> > >> > Dear Rajenji, >> > >> > It is our perceptions which decide who >> > is guilty and who is innocent. The entire para-military >> > forces are dubbed rapists in Kashmir for a few stray >> > incidents.It seems some of us are more concerned about Human >> > Rights of Pakistanis,Bangladeshis than of our own >> > countrymen. >> > >> > >> > I do not know the complete facts of the case. If the BSF >> > has really crossed over to Bangladesh and detained Shahidul >> > Alam, then it is of concern. On the other hand if he has >> > illegally crossed over to our side and then was detained, >> > why anyone should bother unless it has been innocuous or >> > beyond the control of the person concerned. >> > >> > >> > Labelling the Border forces killers of innocent people >> > without any proof is really doing injustice to those who are >> > protecting our lives at the cost of their own lives. >> > >> > Regards, >> > >> > >> > >> > (A.K.MALIK) >> > >> > >> > >> > >> >> >> >> _________________________________________ >> reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. >> Critiques & Collaborations >> To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with >> subscribe in the subject header. >> To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list >> List archive: > > > From kshmendra2005 at yahoo.com Thu Jun 18 16:14:42 2009 From: kshmendra2005 at yahoo.com (Kshmendra Kaul) Date: Thu, 18 Jun 2009 03:44:42 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Reader-list] "Nyaya Bhoomi" - "Mission Mafia se Mukti" Message-ID: <849981.50348.qm@web57207.mail.re3.yahoo.com> http://www.nyayabhoomi.org/   Two very interesting comments on this website:   - Impatient about seeking a responsive & accountable form of governance, we hit at the base of corruption, nepotism & file-pushing culture every day. We should be able to improve the lives of 5% of India's population by 2012, 15% by 2015, and 50% by 2018.   - Global economic conditions have derailed our plans to develop this website into India's first portal on social and national issues. We now hope to re-begin work on it in the middle of 2009.   And then there is the "Autorickshaw Star Club"   And then there are the advices on "Right to Information" (RTI)   Kshmendra From kshmendra2005 at yahoo.com Thu Jun 18 16:25:13 2009 From: kshmendra2005 at yahoo.com (Kshmendra Kaul) Date: Thu, 18 Jun 2009 03:55:13 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Reader-list] "Are electronic voting machines tamper-proof?" - Subramanian Swamy Message-ID: <984038.88284.qm@web57202.mail.re3.yahoo.com> "Are electronic voting machines tamper-proof?" Subramanian Swamy   (No, argues the author, because each step in the life cycle of a voting machine involves different people gaining access to the machines, often installing new software. But there are many ways of preventing EVM fraud.)   Is there a possibility of rigging electoral outcomes in a general election to the Lok Sabha? This question has arisen not only because of the unexpected number of seats won or lost by some parties in the recent contest. It is accentuated by the recent spate of articles published in reputed computer engineering journals and in the popular international press, which raise doubts about the integrity of Electronic Voting Machines (EVMs).   For example, the respected International Electrical & Electronics Engineering Journal (IEEE, May 2009, p.23) has published an article by two eminent professors of computer science, titled “Trustworthy Voting.” They conclude that although electronic voting machines do offer a myriad of benefits, these cannot be reaped unless nine suggested safeguards are put in place for protecting the integrity of the outcome. None of these nine safeguards, however, is in place in Indian EVMs. Hence, electronic voting machines in India today do not meet the standard of national integrity or safeguard the sanctity of our democracy.   Newsweek (issue of June 1, 2009) has published an interesting article by Evgeny Morozov, who points out that when Ireland embarked on an ambitious e-voting scheme in 2006, such as touch-screen voting machines, the innovation was widely welcomed. Three years and 51 million euros later, the government scrapped the entire initiative. What doomed the effort was a lack of people’s trust in the machines. Voters just didn’t like that the machines would record their votes as mere electronic blips, with no tangible record.   Mr. Morozov points out that, as most PC-users know, computers can be hacked. While we are not unwilling to accept this security risk in banking, shopping, and e-mailing (since the fraud is at the micro-level and of individual consequence, which in most cases is rectifiable), the ballot box is sacred. It needs to be perfectly safeguarded because of the monumental consequence of a rigged or faulty vote recording. It is of macro-significance, in the nature of an e-coup d’etat. At least that’s what voters across Europe seem to have said loud and clear.   Thus, a backlash against e-voting is brewing across the European continent. After nearly two years of deliberation, Germany’s Supreme Court ruled last March that e-voting was unconstitutional because the average citizen could not be expected to understand the exact steps involved in the recording and tallying of votes. Ulrich Wiesner, a software consultant who holds a Ph.D. in physics and who filed the initial lawsuit, said in an interview with the German magazine Der Spiegel that the Dutch Nedap machines used in Germany were even less secure than mobile phones!   In fact, the Dutch public-interest group ‘Wij Vertrouwen Stemcomputers Niet’ (‘We Do Not Trust Voting Machines’) produced a video showing how quickly the Nedap machines could be hacked without voters or election officials being aware (it took just five minutes). After the clip was broadcast on Dutch national television in October 2006, the Netherlands banned all electronic voting machines from use in elections.   Numerous electronic voting inconsistencies in developing countries, where governments are often all too eager to manipulate votes, have only fuelled the controversy. After Hugo Chavez won the 2004 election in Venezuela, it came out that the government owned 28 per cent of Bizta, the company that manufactured the voting machines. On the eve of the 2009 elections in India, I raised the issue at a press conference in Chennai, pointing out that a political party just before the elections had recruited those who had been convicted in the U.S. for hacking bank accounts on the Internet and credit cards.   In the U.S. too, there is a significant controversy on Elms. In fact, the Secretary of State of California has set up a full-fledged inquiry into EVMs, after staying all further use.   Why are the EVMs so vulnerable? Each step in the life cycle of a voting machine — from the time it is developed and installed to when the votes are recorded and the data transferred to a central repository for tallying — involves different people gaining access to the machines, often installing new software. It wouldn’t be hard for, say, an election official to paint a parallel programme under another password on one or many voting machines that would, before voters arrived at the poll stations, ensure a pre-determined outcome.   The Election Commission of India has known of these dangers since 2000. Dr M. S. Gill, the then CEC, had arranged at my initiative for Professor Sanjay Sarma, the father of RFID software fame at the Massachusetts Institute of Technology (MIT), and his wife Dr Gitanjali Swamy of Harvard, to demonstrate how unsafeguarded the chips in EVMs were. Some changes in procedure were made subsequently by the EC. But the fundamental flaws, which made them compliant to hacking, remained.   In 2004, the Supreme Court’s First Bench, comprising Chief Justice V. N. Khare and Justices Babu and Kapadia, directed the Election Commission to consider the technical flaws in EVMs put forward by Satinath Choudhary, a U.S.-based software engineer, in a PIL. But the EC has failed to consider his representation.   There are many ways to prevent EVM fraud. One way to reduce the risk of fraud is to have machines print a paper record of each vote, which voters could then deposit into a conventional ballot box. While this procedure will ensure that each vote can be verified, using paper ballots defeats the purpose of electronic voting in the first place. Using two machines produced by different manufacturers decreases the risk of a security compromise, but doesn’t eliminate it.   A better way, it is argued in the IEEE article I have cited, is to expose the software behind electronic voting machines to public scrutiny. The root problem of popular electronic machines is that the computer programmes that run them are usually closely held trade secrets (it doesn’t help that the software often runs on the Microsoft Windows operating system, which is not the world’s most secure). Having the software closely examined and tested by experts not affiliated with the company would make it easier to close technical loopholes that hackers can exploit. Experience with web servers has shown that opening software to public scrutiny can uncover potential security breaches.   However, as the Newsweek article points out, the electronic voting machine industry argues that openness will hurt the competitive position of the current market leaders. A report released in April by the Election Technology Council, a U.S. trade association, says that disclosing information on known vulnerabilities might help would-be attackers more than those who would defend against such attacks. Some computer scientists have proposed that computer codes should be disclosed to a limited group of certified experts. Making such disclosure mandatory for all electronic voting machines will be a good first step for preventing vote fraud. It will also be consistent with openness in the electoral process.   Now several High Courts are hearing PILs on the EVMs. This is good news. I believe the time has arrived for the Supreme Court to transfer these cases to itself, and take a long, hard look at these riggable machines that favour a ruling party that can ensure a pliant Election Commission.   Else, elections will soon lose their credibility and the demise of democracy will be near. Hence evidence must now be collected by all political parties to determine the number of constituencies in which they suspect rigging. The number will not exceed 75, in my opinion. We can identify them as follows: any 2009 general election result in which the main losing candidate of a recognised party found that more than 10 per cent of the polling booths showed fewer than five votes per booth should be taken, prima facie, as a constituency in which rigging took place. This is because the main recognised parties usually have more than five party workers per booth, and hence with their families will poll a minimum of 25 votes per booth for their party candidate. If these 25 voters can give affidavits affirming who they voted for, the High Court can treat this as evidence and order a full inquiry.   (The writer is a former Union Law Minister.)   http://www.hindu.com/2009/06/17/stories/2009061755160900.htm     From rakesh.rnbdj at gmail.com Thu Jun 18 17:10:33 2009 From: rakesh.rnbdj at gmail.com (Rakesh Iyer) Date: Thu, 18 Jun 2009 17:10:33 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Shahidul Alam detained by Indian Border Security Force In-Reply-To: References: <359032.2955.qm@web39105.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <6b79f1a70906180201p782c3345u16074d04d391a88d@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: Dear all The first problem comes here with viewing things as Indians alone without thinking of repercussions in the world. Since some members of this forum keep on cribbing that we don't look at things as Indians, let me remind them of Gandhi, the Father of the Nation and Tagore, the man who wrote our national anthem. Tagore was totally against nationalism. Infact, when he advised Japan too about being careful of nationalism, he was asked to go away and probably must have received similar kind of comments given on our forum. Similarly, while Gandhi asked to finally reach internationalism from nationalism, we have a situation where people are just willing to look at things from an Indian perspective. I am not saying that we shouldn't look at things from an Indian perspective. We should also look at things from other perspectives as well. And when it comes for a rape, a murder, or cases like Palestine, Sri Lanka or even Salwa Judum, we should look at things from the humanitarian angle also, not just the Indian angle or the Indian state angle. And we should finally take that stand which is good or beneficial for all. At least we should understand that if we were exposed to the same treatment, we would also accept it, and then only should we recommend it to others. As Anupam jee said, if an Indian citizen were to be caught like this in Afghanistan or Bangladesh, we would be making a hue and cry about it. But not now. My point is that we should not equally object to a hue and cry being made about a Bangladeshi citizen being caught on this side of the border. What's the harm? Please stop looking at things as Indian, Pakistani, American, Chinese and so on. We are humans first, and we are not slaves of the Indian state certainly. And nobody says that terrorists have more human rights than those who get killed in blasts. Both have equal human rights. Those who keep on cribbing about death sentences to terrorists, should invest their energy in bringing police and judicial reforms so that blasts don't take 16-17 years to solve, like the 1993 Mumbai blasts, neither is the enquiry conducted flawed as in the Parliament case attack. Regards Rakesh From chintangirishmodi at gmail.com Thu Jun 18 18:18:35 2009 From: chintangirishmodi at gmail.com (Chintan) Date: Thu, 18 Jun 2009 18:18:35 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] MH-02-Z-8508 - THE RIKSHAW STORY In-Reply-To: <835490.51811.qm@web57206.mail.re3.yahoo.com> References: <835490.51811.qm@web57206.mail.re3.yahoo.com> Message-ID: Thanks, Mr. Kaul, for sharing this amazing story. Do keep them coming. Regards Chintan On Thu, Jun 18, 2009 at 4:01 PM, Kshmendra Kaul wrote: > "THE RIKSHAW STORY" > > (Suvendu Roy of Titan Industries shares his inspirational encounter with a > rickshaw driver in Mumbai) > > Last Sunday, my wife, kid and I had to travel to Andheri from Bandra. When > I waved at a passing auto rickshaw, little did I expect that this ride would > be any different. > > > As we set off, my eyes fell on a few magazines (kept in an aircraft style > pouch) behind the driver's back rest. I looked in front and there was a > small TV. The driver had put on the Doordarshan channel. My wife and I > looked at each other with disbelief and amusement. In front of me was a > small first-aid box with cotton, dettol and some medicines. This was enough > for me to realise that I was in a special vehicle. Then I looked around > again, and discovered more -there was a radio, fire extinguisher, wall > clock, calendar, and pictures and symbols of all faiths - from Islam and > Christianity to Buddhism, Hinduism and Sikhism. There were also pictures of > the heroes of 26/11- Kamte, Salaskar, Karkare and Unnikrishnan. I realised > that not only my vehicle, but also my driver was special. > > > I started chatting with him and the initial sense of ridicule and disbelief > gradually diminished. I gathered that he had been driving an auto rickshaw > for the past 8-9 years; he had lost his job when his employer's plastic > company was shut down. He had two school-going children, and he drove from 8 > in the morning till 10 at night. No break unless he was unwell. "Sahab, ghar > mein baith ke TV dekh kar kya faida? Do paisa income karega toh future mein > kaam aayega." (Sir, what's the use of simply sitting at home and watching > TV? If I earn some income, then it will be useful in the future.) > > > We realised that we had come across a man who represents Mumbai - the > spirit of work, the spirit of travel and the spirit of excelling in life. I > asked him whether he does anything else as I figured that he did not have > too much spare time. He said that he goes to an old age home for women in > Andheri once a week or whenever he has some extra income, where he donates > tooth brushes, toothpastes, soap, hair oil, and other items of daily use. He > pointed out to a painted message below the meter that read: "25 per cent > discount on metered fare for the handicapped. Free rides for blind > passengers up to Rs50″. He also said that his auto was mentioned on Radio > Mirchi twice by the station RJs. The Marathi press in Mumbai know about him > and have written a few pieces on him and his vehicle. > > > My wife and I were struck with awe. The man was a HERO! A hero who deserves > all our respect. I know that my son, once he grows up, will realise that we > have met a genuine hero. He has put questions to me such as why should we > help other people? I will try to keep this incident alive in his memory. > > > Our journey came to an end; 45 minutes of a lesson in humility, > selflessness and of a hero-worshipping Mumbai - my temporary home. We > disembarked, and all I could do was to pay him a tip that would hardly cover > a free ride for a blind man. > > (Its amazing there are ppl still alive like him in this world! > I hope, one day, you too have a chance to meet Mr Sandeep Bachhe in his > auto rickshaw - MH-02-Z-8508) > > http://avinashjoshi.co.in/2009/04/13/the-rikshaw-story/ > > > > > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > subscribe in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: From kshmendra2005 at yahoo.com Thu Jun 18 20:05:09 2009 From: kshmendra2005 at yahoo.com (Kshmendra Kaul) Date: Thu, 18 Jun 2009 07:35:09 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Reader-list] =?utf-8?q?=22Kashmir=E2=80=99s_rising_tide_of_hate?= =?utf-8?q?=22_-_Praveen_Swami?= Message-ID: <241757.50271.qm@web57207.mail.re3.yahoo.com> "Kashmir’s rising tide of hate" Praveen Swami   (Politicians must take on the Islamists’ deceitful politics of death — or risk being swept away.)   Early this month, Nigeena Awan was dragged out of her home at Kellar, Kashmir, beaten up and executed with an assault weapon from point blank range. Her father, Mohammad Sharif Awan, was ordered to bury his daughter without ceremony; the Hizb-ul-Mujahideen, which carried out the execution, also warned neighbours against dignifying her death with last rites.   Hours after Awan’s death on June 3, People’s Democratic Party leader Mehbooba Mufti visited Shopian to stage a protest against the alleged rape and murder of two local women — one of them, like Awan, a high school student. She said nothing about Awan’s execution, though. Nor did Islamist cleric Tariq Ahmad, who has emerged as the key leader of the Shopian protests, say anything; nor, for that matter, did the local leadership of the National Conference. No one has called for the men who killed Awan to be found and prosecuted. No one even bothered to visit her family, even though the hamlet of Pahlipora at Kellar is just a 10-km drive from Shopian.   Ever since last month’s rape-murders, the urban heartlands of Jammu and Kashmir’s Islamist movement have been torn apart by violence: the consequence, some claim, of widespread popular rage against the Indian state.   But violent death has visited the Shopian area often, for the most part without drawing comment. In April, 60-year-old Reshma Awan, like Nigeena Awan a member of the Gujjar pastoralist community, was executed by the Lashkar-e-Taiba at Pahlipora. Her son, Mohammad Aslam Awan, was shot and seriously injured while attempting to protect his mother. Last month, Dachnoo resident Mohammad Saifuddin was killed similarly. And a day after Nigeena Awan was murdered, unidentified men shot dead shopkeeper Mohammad Abdullah Gela at his Sangarwani home.   What, then, is it that has vested the Shopian deaths with special significance? The silence that surrounded Awan’s death necessitates an examination of the complex — and often deceitful — politics of death in Jammu and Kashmir.   “Long live Pakistan, We want freedom,” chanted the mob of young men who, armed with shovels and axes, gathered to demolish Sabina Hamid Bulla’s home in downtown Srinagar on May 5. Back in 2006, as Ms Bulla’s home was being brought down, few understood its full import. The Islamist assault on Ms Bulla, a Srinagar madam whose brothel is alleged to have serviced top politicians, businessmen and bureaucrats, sparked off a series of fateful events.   Even the most obtuse among the ranks of Kashmir’s Islamists understood by 2005 that their movement had failed. Much of the secessionist leadership was preparing to make peace with India. Large swathes of the Islamist vanguard, the Jamaat-e-Islami, had allied themselves with the PDP; important elements of the Hizb were preparing to accept defeat.   Kashmir’s Islamist patriarch, Syed Ali Shah Geelani — recently described by Hizb ul-Mujahideen chief Mohammad Yusuf Shah as “the name of our struggle”— set about crafting a response to the crisis.   Mr. Geelani’s followers began to make the wider case that the secularisation of culture in Kashmir constituted a civilisational threat. In an article published in May 2006, Islamist leader Asiya Andrabi attacked “young Muslim girls who have lost their identity of Islam and are presenting the look of a Bollywood actress but not Fatima and Aisha (R.A.) [Prophet Muhammad’s daughter and wife].”   Later, Islamists leveraged the uncovering of Ms Bulla’s operations to argue that India was engaged in a conspiracy to undermine Jammu and Kashmir’s Islamic character. Kashmir University scholar Hameeda Nayeem even made the extraordinary accusation that the scandal pointed “unequivocally to a policy-based state patronage [of prostitution].”   In the summer of 2007, the rape-murder of a north Kashmir teenager was used to initiate a xenophobic mobilisation. Addressing a June 24, 2007 rally at Langate town, Mr. Geelani said: “Hundreds of thousands of non-state subjects had been pushed into Kashmir under a long-term plan to crush the Kashmiris.” He called for them to be “driven out of Kashmir in a civilised way [sic.].” By early last year, campaigns like these had almost become routine. Islamists mobilised against a career counsellor who, they claimed, had been despatched to Srinagar schools to seduce students into a career of vice. An Anantnag schoolteacher also came under attack, after a video surfaced showing that a group of his students had danced to pop film music on a holiday in the town.   >From these events, Islamists learnt that the conditions existed for xenophobic politics to succeed.   Last summer, matters came to a head after the State government granted temporary land use rights for facilitating the annual pilgrimage to the Amarnath shrine in south Kashmir. Mr. Geelani led the movement against the order, again claiming the existence of a conspiracy to settle Hindus in the region. At a press conference, he warned that the authorities were working “on an agenda of changing the demography of the State.” “I caution my nation,” he warned, “that if we don’t wake up in time, India and its stooges will succeed and we will be displaced.” Mr. Geelani also held out dark hints that a genocide of Kashmiri Muslims was being planned.   Mr. Geelani’s position stemmed from his long-standing belief that Islam and Hinduism were locked in an irreducible civilisational opposition. At an October 26 rally in Srinagar, he insisted that “the people of the State should, as their religious duty, raise their voice against India’s aggression” (emphasis added). This duty stemmed from the fact that to “practise Islam completely under the subjugation of India is impossible because human beings in practice worship those whose rules they abide by.”   Mr. Geelani’s success needs to be read against the evidently inexorable growth of the Jamaat-e-Islami from the 1950s. As scholar Yoginder Sikand has pointed out, the Jamaat believed that “a carefully planned Indian conspiracy was at work to destroy the Islamic identity of the Kashmiris.” It was even alleged “that the government of India had dispatched a team to Andalusia, headed by the Kashmiri Pandit [politician] D.P. Dhar, to investigate how Islam was driven out of Spain and to suggest measures as to how the Spanish experiment could be repeated in Kashmir, too.”   By 1987, the social coalition drawn to this ideology had acquired a political voice, the Muslim United Front. At a March 4, 1987 rally in Srinagar, MUF candidates, clad in the white robes of the Muslim pious, declared variously that Islam could not survive in India’s Hindu-majority landscape.   Now, the Shopian rape-murder — if that is what investigators eventually determine the deaths to be — is being used as a tool to peddle that proposition again.   Earlier this month, the pro-Islamist Kashmir High Court Bar Association released a report claiming the “perpetrators belong to a particular community, and had even vandalised the bodies of the victims.” Its general secretary G.N. Shaheen added, in case anyone missed the point, the rapes were carried out by “Hindu fascists.” Based on dubious evidence — the HCBA report asserts that the “ill-fated duo was raped even after their death,” a claim no pathologist has so far felt confident of making — the report was clearly intended to inflame.   Pro-Islamist media have been helping to ensure that the venom spreads as far as possible. In a June 16 article, Riyaz Masoor, editor, Rising Kashmir, suggested that the victims “represented the nation Kashmir and the rapists represented the state of India; it was the Hindu India raping the Muslim Kashmir.” Mr. Masroor accused the Indian Army, which until now has not been alleged to have played any role in the Shopian deaths, of going “on a raping spree.” “Let them carry a poison pill with them,” he advised the State’s women: “if, God forbid, they are caught, let them swallow the poison and embrace death and defeat the evil military man of the world’s largest democracy.”   The lies seem to be working. Even the United States-based MacArthur Foundation’s Asia Security Initiative last week claimed that the judicial commission investigating the Shopian deaths was questioning Indian troops — a claim whose credibility must be read alongside the bizarre assertions in the report that the Shopian victims were sisters who grew up in an apple orchard.   Long before the Shopian tragedy presented itself as an opportunity, Mr. Geelani had sought to provoke a confrontation on the Amarnath Yatra. While welcoming pilgrims and tourists to Kashmir, he claimed that a long-standing decision to allow pilgrims to visit the shrine for more than a fortnight was “a nefarious decision of India.” “It is destructive for our cultural fabric.”   Last year, Kashmir’s people decisively rejected Mr. Geelani’s communal chauvinism and defeated his demand for a boycott of the Assembly elections. The candidates they elected, though, have so far shown little integrity or commitment to those they represent: both the National Conference and the PDP have sought accommodation with Islamist secessionists. They must summon up the courage to take on Mr. Geelani — or risk being swept away by the rising tide of hate.   http://www.hindu.com/2009/06/17/stories/2009061755040800.htm     From taraprakash at gmail.com Thu Jun 18 20:48:21 2009 From: taraprakash at gmail.com (taraprakash) Date: Thu, 18 Jun 2009 11:18:21 -0400 Subject: [Reader-list] =?utf-8?q?=22Kashmir=E2=80=99s_rising_tide_of_hate?= =?utf-8?q?=22_-_Praveen_Swami?= References: <241757.50271.qm@web57207.mail.re3.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <56E4DC8DFAA64A129C0D42A839C54E8B@tara> Thanks for forwarding this Kshmendra. Also thanks for keeping alive an alternative voice to all-subsuming platitudinous nails. I, too wonder why the human rights activists have different standards for judging state and non-state actors. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Kshmendra Kaul" To: "sarai list" Sent: Thursday, June 18, 2009 10:35 AM Subject: [Reader-list] "Kashmir’s rising tide of hate" - Praveen Swami > "Kashmir’s rising tide of hate" > > > Praveen Swami > > (Politicians must take on the Islamists’ deceitful politics of death — or > risk being swept away.) > > Early this month, Nigeena Awan was dragged out of her home at Kellar, > Kashmir, beaten up and executed with an assault weapon from point blank > range. Her father, Mohammad Sharif Awan, was ordered to bury his daughter > without ceremony; the Hizb-ul-Mujahideen, which carried out the execution, > also warned neighbours against dignifying her death with last rites. > > Hours after Awan’s death on June 3, People’s Democratic Party leader > Mehbooba Mufti visited Shopian to stage a protest against the alleged rape > and murder of two local women — one of them, like Awan, a high school > student. She said nothing about Awan’s execution, though. Nor did Islamist > cleric Tariq Ahmad, who has emerged as the key leader of the Shopian > protests, say anything; nor, for that matter, did the local leadership of > the National Conference. No one has called for the men who killed Awan to > be found and prosecuted. No one even bothered to visit her family, even > though the hamlet of Pahlipora at Kellar is just a 10-km drive from > Shopian. > > Ever since last month’s rape-murders, the urban heartlands of Jammu and > Kashmir’s Islamist movement have been torn apart by violence: the > consequence, some claim, of widespread popular rage against the Indian > state. > > But violent death has visited the Shopian area often, for the most part > without drawing comment. In April, 60-year-old Reshma Awan, like Nigeena > Awan a member of the Gujjar pastoralist community, was executed by the > Lashkar-e-Taiba at Pahlipora. Her son, Mohammad Aslam Awan, was shot and > seriously injured while attempting to protect his mother. Last month, > Dachnoo resident Mohammad Saifuddin was killed similarly. And a day after > Nigeena Awan was murdered, unidentified men shot dead shopkeeper Mohammad > Abdullah Gela at his Sangarwani home. > > What, then, is it that has vested the Shopian deaths with special > significance? The silence that surrounded Awan’s death necessitates an > examination of the complex — and often deceitful — politics of death in > Jammu and Kashmir. > > “Long live Pakistan, We want freedom,” chanted the mob of young men who, > armed with shovels and axes, gathered to demolish Sabina Hamid Bulla’s > home in downtown Srinagar on May 5. Back in 2006, as Ms Bulla’s home was > being brought down, few understood its full import. The Islamist assault > on Ms Bulla, a Srinagar madam whose brothel is alleged to have serviced > top politicians, businessmen and bureaucrats, sparked off a series of > fateful events. > > Even the most obtuse among the ranks of Kashmir’s Islamists understood by > 2005 that their movement had failed. Much of the secessionist leadership > was preparing to make peace with India. Large swathes of the Islamist > vanguard, the Jamaat-e-Islami, had allied themselves with the PDP; > important elements of the Hizb were preparing to accept defeat. > > Kashmir’s Islamist patriarch, Syed Ali Shah Geelani — recently described > by Hizb ul-Mujahideen chief Mohammad Yusuf Shah as “the name of our > struggle”— set about crafting a response to the crisis. > > Mr. Geelani’s followers began to make the wider case that the > secularisation of culture in Kashmir constituted a civilisational threat. > In an article published in May 2006, Islamist leader Asiya Andrabi > attacked “young Muslim girls who have lost their identity of Islam and are > presenting the look of a Bollywood actress but not Fatima and Aisha (R.A.) > [Prophet Muhammad’s daughter and wife].” > > Later, Islamists leveraged the uncovering of Ms Bulla’s operations to > argue that India was engaged in a conspiracy to undermine Jammu and > Kashmir’s Islamic character. Kashmir University scholar Hameeda Nayeem > even made the extraordinary accusation that the scandal pointed > “unequivocally to a policy-based state patronage [of prostitution].” > > In the summer of 2007, the rape-murder of a north Kashmir teenager was > used to initiate a xenophobic mobilisation. Addressing a June 24, 2007 > rally at Langate town, Mr. Geelani said: “Hundreds of thousands of > non-state subjects had been pushed into Kashmir under a long-term plan to > crush the Kashmiris.” He called for them to be “driven out of Kashmir in a > civilised way [sic.].” By early last year, campaigns like these had almost > become routine. Islamists mobilised against a career counsellor who, they > claimed, had been despatched to Srinagar schools to seduce students into a > career of vice. An Anantnag schoolteacher also came under attack, after a > video surfaced showing that a group of his students had danced to pop film > music on a holiday in the town. > > From these events, Islamists learnt that the conditions existed for > xenophobic politics to succeed. > > Last summer, matters came to a head after the State government granted > temporary land use rights for facilitating the annual pilgrimage to the > Amarnath shrine in south Kashmir. Mr. Geelani led the movement against the > order, again claiming the existence of a conspiracy to settle Hindus in > the region. At a press conference, he warned that the authorities were > working “on an agenda of changing the demography of the State.” “I caution > my nation,” he warned, “that if we don’t wake up in time, India and its > stooges will succeed and we will be displaced.” Mr. Geelani also held out > dark hints that a genocide of Kashmiri Muslims was being planned. > > Mr. Geelani’s position stemmed from his long-standing belief that Islam > and Hinduism were locked in an irreducible civilisational opposition. At > an October 26 rally in Srinagar, he insisted that “the people of the State > should, as their religious duty, raise their voice against India’s > aggression” (emphasis added). This duty stemmed from the fact that to > “practise Islam completely under the subjugation of India is impossible > because human beings in practice worship those whose rules they abide by.” > > Mr. Geelani’s success needs to be read against the evidently inexorable > growth of the Jamaat-e-Islami from the 1950s. As scholar Yoginder Sikand > has pointed out, the Jamaat believed that “a carefully planned Indian > conspiracy was at work to destroy the Islamic identity of the Kashmiris.” > It was even alleged “that the government of India had dispatched a team to > Andalusia, headed by the Kashmiri Pandit [politician] D.P. Dhar, to > investigate how Islam was driven out of Spain and to suggest measures as > to how the Spanish experiment could be repeated in Kashmir, too.” > > By 1987, the social coalition drawn to this ideology had acquired a > political voice, the Muslim United Front. At a March 4, 1987 rally in > Srinagar, MUF candidates, clad in the white robes of the Muslim pious, > declared variously that Islam could not survive in India’s Hindu-majority > landscape. > > Now, the Shopian rape-murder — if that is what investigators eventually > determine the deaths to be — is being used as a tool to peddle that > proposition again. > > Earlier this month, the pro-Islamist Kashmir High Court Bar Association > released a report claiming the “perpetrators belong to a particular > community, and had even vandalised the bodies of the victims.” Its general > secretary G.N. Shaheen added, in case anyone missed the point, the rapes > were carried out by “Hindu fascists.” Based on dubious evidence — the HCBA > report asserts that the “ill-fated duo was raped even after their death,” > a claim no pathologist has so far felt confident of making — the report > was clearly intended to inflame. > > Pro-Islamist media have been helping to ensure that the venom spreads as > far as possible. In a June 16 article, Riyaz Masoor, editor, Rising > Kashmir, suggested that the victims “represented the nation Kashmir and > the rapists represented the state of India; it was the Hindu India raping > the Muslim Kashmir.” Mr. Masroor accused the Indian Army, which until now > has not been alleged to have played any role in the Shopian deaths, of > going “on a raping spree.” “Let them carry a poison pill with them,” he > advised the State’s women: “if, God forbid, they are caught, let them > swallow the poison and embrace death and defeat the evil military man of > the world’s largest democracy.” > > The lies seem to be working. Even the United States-based MacArthur > Foundation’s Asia Security Initiative last week claimed that the judicial > commission investigating the Shopian deaths was questioning Indian > troops — a claim whose credibility must be read alongside the bizarre > assertions in the report that the Shopian victims were sisters who grew up > in an apple orchard. > > Long before the Shopian tragedy presented itself as an opportunity, Mr. > Geelani had sought to provoke a confrontation on the Amarnath Yatra. While > welcoming pilgrims and tourists to Kashmir, he claimed that a > long-standing decision to allow pilgrims to visit the shrine for more than > a fortnight was “a nefarious decision of India.” “It is destructive for > our cultural fabric.” > > Last year, Kashmir’s people decisively rejected Mr. Geelani’s communal > chauvinism and defeated his demand for a boycott of the Assembly > elections. The candidates they elected, though, have so far shown little > integrity or commitment to those they represent: both the National > Conference and the PDP have sought accommodation with Islamist > secessionists. They must summon up the courage to take on Mr. Geelani — or > risk being swept away by the rising tide of hate. > > http://www.hindu.com/2009/06/17/stories/2009061755040800.htm > > > > > > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > subscribe in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> From shuddha at sarai.net Fri Jun 19 03:11:44 2009 From: shuddha at sarai.net (Shuddhabrata Sengupta) Date: Fri, 19 Jun 2009 03:11:44 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Shahidul Alam detained by Indian Border Security Force In-Reply-To: <7271ec560906170005u55065435wabec85b8d6a2ad76@mail.gmail.com> References: <3d5801c9ee8e$5c0d6c00$496a010a@mail2world.com> <6b79f1a70906162123g10766f8bk3511dd1487a7dd9f@mail.gmail.com> <19d498870906162148r6ae27336l9ca19b8deb8464ec@mail.gmail.com> <341380d00906162246u47d079bg99126cbc12fa6211@mail.gmail.com> <7271ec560906170005u55065435wabec85b8d6a2ad76@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: Dear All, I think the detention of any human being on the grounds that he is crossing an artificial, ephemeral, man-made border is an affront to our common humanity. Borders come and go, and people will move across them, and have always moved across them, regardless of the controls that seek to restrict movement. Otherwise we would all be uncivilised, uncouth, provincial barbarians. Shahidul Alam happens to be a very respected photographer, but his detention by an Indian border patrol would have been just as horrible if he were an honest, hard working peasant, agricultural worker, factory worker, cook, student, plumber or sex-worker from Bangladesh who happened to have got caught while being on the 'wrong' side of the insane labyrinth that is called the India-Bangladesh border . The city of Delhi, where I live, is sustained by the hard labour of many Bangladeshis who work as domestic help, as informal factory workers, as people in the formal as well as informal hospitality industry, as white collar workers. Not all of them are in Delhi 'Legally' but the city would be poorer without them, as would many cities all over the world. Imagine Rome, London, New York, Melbourne, Warsaw or New Delhi without the cheerful, ironic, gentle Bangladeshi who cleans homes, sells flowers, works as a doctor, drives a taxi, makes love, cooks meals, writes poems, builds houses, turns lathes and sings songs. The free movement of people is a precondition of a free world, and the free movement of Bangladeshi people, many of whom, who with their immense energy, good humour and gentle irony sustain a more humane fabric of everyday life is what makes life worth living in many parts of the world. They show you the way in strange cities. They sing you a snatch of song. Sometimes they give you an unasked for discount on the bill at the end of a big meal when you are hungry. All those who oppose the free movement of people, whether the people are identified, or choose to identify themselves as Bangladeshis, Poles, Croats, Palestinians, Israelis, Pakistanis, Indians, Iraqis, Iranians, Afghans, Somalis or Congolese are inhuman, inhospitable and enemies of our shared humanity. On another note, I have said this before, but I will say it again. I find the detention of Pragya Bharti under preventive detention laws as reprehensible as that of Binayak Sen or those (many young people) who are accused of being SIMI or Indian Mujahideen frontmen, or of being Maoists, or opposed to circumstances of that prevail Kashmir or in the North Eastern states of India. Preventive detention, under any circumstances, is an insult to liberty and should be opposed, no matter who is being detained, whether it is Varun Gandhi, Binayak Sen, Pragya Bharti or anyone else. regards Shuddha On 17-Jun-09, at 12:35 PM, Rajendra Bhat Uppinangadi wrote: > Dear All, one issue that is concerning me is, are men and women in > media > above laws.? If they are doing any project, they can violate laws > of the > land.? Is media responsible to citizens of the nation in which they > are > operating.? Or they are responsible only to media barons and the share > holders of the media corporate to share the "profits" of such > projects.? As > the humans work in different walks of life, do they become above > laws if > they are say, politicians, judicial appointees and executives, or > are they > appointed to serve the citizens in best possible interests of the > citizens.? > > Now, as to current matter ubder discussion, it is to be noted > that if the > border force do their duties sincerely, no under age married girls > can come > in to India and work as dance bar girls, sex workers in as far as > south > India, particularly in Chennai, Bangalore, and Hyderabad. It is > true that > they have practically no opportunities to earn a living in their > bangaldesh, > but the sad issue is many of these married girls are in southern > India,, > recently Bangalore police with Chennai counter parts ripped open > the network > of this illegal trade of human traffick and sex trade. Local news > network > channel 9 and Udaya TV and also Suvarna tv covered the issue > comprehensively. Even with recession and lesser salaries, the > stressed minds > are seeking extra carnal pleasures ? > > As to this man of media, why he has not taken necessary > authorisation for > the project work.? Is he under cover operative for any group.? If Dr. > Binayak Sen can be held captive in detention for the good work he > has had on > record, is not above laws, which ofcourse is obnxious, are men in > media > above laws.? > > Amusingly, the fate of Prajna Thakur and 12 others who are under > detention > for months now without any shred of proof has no defenders of human > rights > talking or them.! None is concerned about these detentions of Prajna > Thakur.? Perceptions of a few seem to be taking over the rights and > wrongs > in society, when it comes to human rights of the humans.? > > Regards, > > Rajen. > > On Wed, Jun 17, 2009 at 11:16 AM, anupam chakravartty > wrote: > >> Photographer Shahidul Alam spends 6hrs in BSF custody: >> >> http://bdnews24.com/details.php?id=87461&cid=2 >> >> >> http://www.indianexpress.com/news/Bangladeshi-photographer-held-- >> crossing--Indo-Bangla-border/477648 >> >> Two versions of the same story. However, if as per the BSF >> officials are >> claiming that Alam crossed over in the Dhubri sector, which is >> also my home >> district, the Brahmaputra river is itself the border. during the >> floods >> immigrant bangladeshis in connivance of BSF and BDR enter India on >> boats >> carrying pineapples from across the border. the no man's land >> mentioned in >> both of the reports is actually river brahmaputra. >> >> thanks anupam >> >> >> On 6/17/09, Santhosh Kumar wrote: >>> >>> it is hard to believe that you will believe.... >>> >>> On Wed, Jun 17, 2009 at 9:53 AM, Pawan Durani >>> >>> wrote: >>> >>>> Hard to believe ..... >>>> >>>> On Tue, Jun 16, 2009 at 7:55 PM, Shun-Ling Chen >>>> >>>> wrote: >>>> >>>>> >>> http://unheardvoice.net/blog/2009/06/16/shahidul-alam-detained-by- >>> indian >>>>> -border-security-force/ >>>>> >>>>> Dr Shahidul Alam, well-known photographer, and founder Drik, was >>>>> detained by Indian Border Security Forces while working on the >>>>> Bangladesh side of the border on his Brahmaputra project. He >>>>> called >> me >>>>> at 18:21 pm to tell me that the guards had asked him to come over, >> and >>>>> then detained him at Sahapara 21 IPP, across the border from >>>>> Rowmari. >>>>> His two colleagues are on the Bangladeshi side of the border, and >> can't >>>>> get to him. >>>>> >>>>> Please contact Home and Foreign Ministry officials requesting that >> they >>>>> do all possible to get him released immediately. It is worth >> mentioning >>>>> that the Indian BSF have detained and killed many innocent >> Bangladeshis >>>>> in recent years, in the border areas. >>>>> >>>>> http://www.mediahelpingmedia.org/content/view/387/1/ >>>>> News - South Asia >>>>> By David Brewer >>>>> Tuesday, 16 June 2009 >>>>> >>>>> Reports from Bangladesh say that Shahidul Alam, the photo >>>>> journalist, >>>>> blogger and founder of the Drik picture network has been >>>>> detained by >>>>> Indian border security forces while working on the Bangladesh >>>>> side of >>>>> the border. >>>>> >>>>> In a message to this site from Dhaka, Alam's partner says he was >>> working >>>>> on a multimedia project about the Brahmaputra with two colleagues >> when >>>>> border guards took him awa >>>>> >>>>> There are now fears for Alam's safety and supporters are >>>>> calling on >> the >>>>> international community to push for his release. >>>>> >>>>> The last message from Shahidul Alam came through at !8:21 on >>>>> Tuesday >> 16 >>>>> June when he called home to say that border security guards had >>>>> asked >>>>> him to come over to the Indian side of the border where they >>>>> detained >>>>> him at Sahapara 21 IPP, across the border from Rowmari. >>>>> >>>>> His two colleagues are on the Bangladeshi side of the border, and >> can't >>>>> get to him. >>>>> >>>>> At the time Alam was working on the Bangladesh end of the river >>>>> Brahmaputra project. He had travelled to Kurigram with two Drik >>>>> colleagues to take photos, video and stills. >>>>> >>>>> Contact has been made with a number of local and international >>>>> media >>>>> organisations and government officials, including the Indian High >>>>> Commission. >>>>> _________________________________________ >>>>> reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. >>>>> Critiques & Collaborations >>>>> To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with >>>>> subscribe in the subject header. >>>>> To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader- >>>>> list >>>>> List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> >>>> _________________________________________ >>>> reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. >>>> Critiques & Collaborations >>>> To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with >>>> subscribe in the subject header. >>>> To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list >>>> List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> >>>> >>> _________________________________________ >>> reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. >>> Critiques & Collaborations >>> To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with >>> subscribe in the subject header. >>> To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list >>> List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> >> _________________________________________ >> reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. >> Critiques & Collaborations >> To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with >> subscribe in the subject header. >> To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list >> List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> >> > > > > -- > Rajen. > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > subscribe in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> From shuddha at sarai.net Fri Jun 19 03:57:16 2009 From: shuddha at sarai.net (Shuddhabrata Sengupta) Date: Fri, 19 Jun 2009 03:57:16 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Hope in Iran? Message-ID: <0D746A4B-6B29-4439-9C60-3CC08964B91C@sarai.net> Dear All, The protests at what is rapidly unravelling as the 'stolen election' in Iran are showing us a different face of Iran today. Hundreds and thousands of peaceful men and women, assembling to denounce Ahmedinijad as a dictator, all night long rooftop assemblies in neighbourhoods that say 'death to the dictatorship' and a visibly nervous 'Guardians Council'. Perhaps the next few days will show which way Iran will turn. There are already reports of attacks on dormitories in Tehran, and the regime's thugs have already killed several people, which has unleashed another wave of mass protests. The BBC, which has an excellent Farsi service (much better than many of its other bureaus) has been doing a good job of reporting from Tehran, Isfahan, Tabriz and elsewhere in Iran, and you can follow more links at http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/8108115.stm I am appending a matter of fact report that appeared on the AP wire earlier below. I'd like to thank Paul Miller, who forwarded us Naeem Moaheiemen's text, and the statement of the Tudeh Party. I hope that list members will take the trouble to trawl through Iranian websites and blogs and send us more material, and if anyone knows Iranian friends who can write to the list directly, it would be great Hopefully, the Ahmedinijad regime, drunk for years on high petrol prices, and now suffering from a recession induced hangover, brutal and callous as it is, is on its last legs, but we have seen people in Iran move close to liberty and then be crushed again, and again, before. Let us home that Tehran does not echo Tienanmen. Many years ago, our own Urdu poet Faiz Ahmed Faiz, wrote a nazm dedicated to Iranian students (Irani tulba ke naam), who were protesting against the Shah's tyranny. And it goes something like this. . Yeh kaun jawan hain arz-e-ajam Yeh lakh lut Jin kay jismon ka kundan Yun khak main raiza raiza hay (Who are these young men, O the land of Ajam These large-hearted The jewel of whose bodies Is scattered on dust in pieces) Let us hope that the jewels of Iran do not get scattered on the streets of Tehran this time. Let us hope that Ahmedinijad and the corrupt theocracy that backs him, meets the same fate that the Shah did. Let us hope that what unfolds in the next few days in the streets of Tehran leaves us smiling and not in tears. crossing my fingers, Shuddha Tehran protests stretch five miles By ANNA JOHNSON and BRIAN MURPHY The Associated Press TEHRAN, Iran | In a massive outpouring reminiscent of the 1979 Islamic Revolution, hundreds of thousands of Iranians streamed through the capital Monday, denouncing President Mahmoud Ahmadinejad’s claim to victory in a disputed election. The huge rally — and smaller protests across the country — reinforced what has become increasingly clear since the election: the opposition forces rallying behind reform leader Mir Hossein Mousavi show no signs of backing down. The rapidly spreading unrest also has pushed Supreme Leader Ayatollah Ali Khamenei, the state’s most powerful figure, into the high-profile role of political referee. Much of the real power in the nation rests with the 70-year-old cleric, who reigns over Iran’s Islamic system and functions as a one-man supreme court. In a dramatic turnaround Monday, Khamenei ordered an investigation into election fraud allegations, just two days after he had urged the nation to unite behind Ahmadinejad. The probe by the Guardian Council, composed of clerics closely allied with Khamenei, illustrates the supreme leader’s desire to avoid a drawn-out political battle that could endanger the stability and legitimacy of the country’s Islamic theocracy. At the very least, the intervention could buy time in hopes of reducing the anti-Ahmadinejad anger. Khamenei is a hard-liner who has battled reformists in the past, and whose support helped Ahmadinejad first get elected in 2005. But analysts say he is also a political realist, and in the past he has made concessions to ensure his main goals — his own survival and that of Iran’s cleric-run system. It appeared that Khamenei had opened the door for Monday’s demonstrations in a possible bid to avoid more street clashes and seek some breathing room. But a single moment could change all that. Gunfire erupted from a compound used by the Basij, a volunteer militia linked to Iran’s powerful Revolutionary Guard. An Associated Press photographer saw at least one demonstrator killed and several others with what appeared to be serious wounds. The protesters had tried to storm and set fire to the compound on the edge of Azadi Square, also known as Freedom Square. Some reports put the death toll higher, but they could not be confirmed. Angry men showed their bloody palms after cradling the dead man and the wounded, who had been part of a crowd that stretched more than five miles supporting Mousavi. In his first public comment on the Iranian election, President Barack Obama said he was “deeply troubled by the violence I’ve been seeing on TV.” Although he said he had no way of knowing whether the election was valid, Obama praised protesters and Iranian youth who questioned the results. “The world is watching and is inspired by their participation, regardless of what the ultimate outcome of the election was,” he said. Police and other security forces stood by quietly — some sitting on stoops with their batons and shields resting behind them as the marchers swallowed the streets in parts of Tehran. Mousavi made his first public appearance since the polls closed, and he launched his claims that the vote was rigged to re-elect the hard- line president. Brief clips of the march were shown on state television in an extremely rare nod to anti-government protests. “Respect the people’s vote!” Mousavi cried through a hand-held loudspeaker in Azadi Square, where Iran’s leaders hold military and political gatherings. Shuddhabrata Sengupta The Sarai Programme at CSDS Raqs Media Collective shuddha at sarai.net www.sarai.net www.raqsmediacollective.net From akmalik45 at yahoo.com Fri Jun 19 06:43:30 2009 From: akmalik45 at yahoo.com (A.K. Malik) Date: Thu, 18 Jun 2009 18:13:30 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Reader-list] Shahidul Alam detained by Indian Border Security Force Message-ID: <308286.46350.qm@web39104.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Hi, Views are very noble, interesting and appreciable from humane point of view. But when you lose your identity,home, job because someone crosses over illegally to your country, things become different. Global brotherhood is easy to talk about, but difficult to implement especially in the current environs.Imagine most Bangladeshis, Africans coming over freely to our country to make our life more pleasant by doing menial jobs and terrorist walking over freely from Pakistan...!!!!!!! Regards, (A.K.MALIK) --- On Fri, 6/19/09, Shuddhabrata Sengupta wrote: > From: Shuddhabrata Sengupta > Subject: Re: [Reader-list] Shahidul Alam detained by Indian Border Security Force > To: "sarai list" > Date: Friday, June 19, 2009, 3:11 AM > Dear All, > > I think the detention of any human being on the grounds > that he is  > crossing an artificial, ephemeral, man-made border is an > affront to  > our common humanity. Borders come and go, and people will > move across  > them, and have always moved across them, regardless of the > controls  > that seek to restrict movement. Otherwise we would all > be  > uncivilised, uncouth, provincial barbarians. > >   Shahidul Alam happens to be a very respected > photographer, but his  > detention by an Indian border patrol would have been just > as horrible  > if he were an honest, hard working peasant, agricultural > worker,  > factory worker, cook, student, plumber or sex-worker from > Bangladesh  > who happened to have got caught while being on the 'wrong' > side of  > the insane labyrinth that is called the India-Bangladesh > border . > > The city of Delhi, where I live, is sustained by the hard > labour of  > many Bangladeshis who work as domestic help, as informal > factory  > workers, as people in the formal as well as informal > hospitality  > industry, as white collar workers. Not all of them are in > Delhi  > 'Legally' but the city would be poorer without them, as > would many  > cities all over the world. Imagine Rome, London, New York, > Melbourne,  > Warsaw or New Delhi without the cheerful, ironic, gentle > Bangladeshi  > who cleans homes, sells flowers, works as a doctor, drives > a taxi,  > makes love, cooks meals, writes poems, builds houses, turns > lathes  > and sings songs.  The free movement of people is a > precondition of a  > free world, and the free movement of Bangladeshi people, > many of  > whom, who with their immense energy, good humour and gentle > irony  > sustain a more humane fabric of everyday life is what makes > life  > worth living in many parts of the world. They show you the > way in  > strange cities. They sing you a snatch of song. Sometimes > they give  > you an unasked for discount on the bill at the end of a big > meal when  > you are hungry. > > All those who oppose the free movement of people, whether > the people  > are identified, or choose to identify themselves as > Bangladeshis,  > Poles, Croats, Palestinians, Israelis, Pakistanis, Indians, > Iraqis,  > Iranians, Afghans, Somalis or Congolese are inhuman, > inhospitable and  > enemies of our shared humanity. > > On another note,  I have said this before, but I will > say it again. I  > find the detention of Pragya Bharti under preventive > detention laws  > as reprehensible as that of Binayak Sen or those (many > young people)  > who are accused of being SIMI or Indian Mujahideen > frontmen, or of  > being Maoists, or opposed to circumstances of that prevail > Kashmir or  > in the North Eastern states of India. > > Preventive detention, under any circumstances, is an insult > to  > liberty and should be opposed, no matter who is being > detained,  > whether it is Varun Gandhi, Binayak Sen, Pragya Bharti or > anyone else. > > regards > > Shuddha > > > > > On 17-Jun-09, at 12:35 PM, Rajendra Bhat Uppinangadi > wrote: > > > Dear All, one issue that is concerning me is, are men > and women in  > > media > > above laws.? If they are doing any project, they can > violate laws  > > of the > > land.? Is media responsible to citizens of the nation > in which they  > > are > > operating.? Or they are responsible only to media > barons and the share > > holders of the media corporate to share the "profits" > of such  > > projects.? As > > the humans work in different walks of life, do they > become above  > > laws if > > they are say, politicians, judicial appointees and > executives, or  > > are they > > appointed to serve the citizens in best possible > interests of the  > > citizens.? > > > >   Now, as to current matter ubder > discussion, it is to be noted  > > that if the > > border force do their duties sincerely, no under age > married girls  > > can come > > in to India and work as dance bar girls, sex workers > in as far as  > > south > > India, particularly in Chennai, Bangalore, and > Hyderabad. It is  > > true that > > they have practically no opportunities to earn a > living in their  > > bangaldesh, > > but the sad issue is many of these married girls are > in southern  > > India,, > > recently Bangalore police with Chennai counter parts > ripped open  > > the network > > of this illegal trade of human traffick and sex trade. > Local news  > > network > > channel 9 and Udaya TV and also Suvarna tv covered the > issue > > comprehensively. Even with recession and lesser > salaries, the  > > stressed minds > > are seeking extra carnal pleasures ? > > > > As to this man of media, why he has not taken > necessary  > > authorisation for > > the project work.? Is he under cover operative for any > group.? If Dr. > > Binayak Sen can be held captive in detention for the > good work he  > > has had on > > record, is not above laws, which ofcourse is obnxious, > are men in  > > media > > above laws.? > > > >   Amusingly, the fate of Prajna Thakur > and 12 others who are under  > > detention > > for months now without any shred of proof has no > defenders of human  > > rights > > talking or them.! None is concerned about these > detentions of Prajna > > Thakur.? Perceptions of a few seem to be taking over > the rights and  > > wrongs > > in society, when it comes to human rights of the > humans.? > > > >   Regards, > > > >    Rajen. > > > > On Wed, Jun 17, 2009 at 11:16 AM, anupam > chakravartty  > > wrote: > > > >> Photographer Shahidul Alam spends 6hrs in BSF > custody: > >> > >> http://bdnews24.com/details.php?id=87461&cid=2 > >> > >> > >> http://www.indianexpress.com/news/Bangladeshi-photographer-held-- > > >> crossing--Indo-Bangla-border/477648 > >> > >> Two versions of the same story. However, if as per > the BSF  > >> officials are > >> claiming that Alam crossed over in the Dhubri > sector, which is  > >> also my home > >> district, the Brahmaputra river is itself the > border. during the  > >> floods > >> immigrant bangladeshis in connivance of BSF and > BDR enter India on  > >> boats > >> carrying pineapples from across the border. the no > man's land  > >> mentioned in > >> both of the reports is actually river > brahmaputra. > >> > >> thanks anupam > >> > >> > >> On 6/17/09, Santhosh Kumar > wrote: > >>> > >>> it is hard to believe that you will > believe.... > >>> > >>> On Wed, Jun 17, 2009 at 9:53 AM, Pawan > Durani  > >>> >>>> wrote: > >>> > >>>> Hard to believe ..... > >>>> > >>>> On Tue, Jun 16, 2009 at 7:55 PM, Shun-Ling > Chen  > >>>> >>>>> wrote: > >>>> > >>>>> > >>> http://unheardvoice.net/blog/2009/06/16/shahidul-alam-detained-by- > > >>> indian > >>>>> -border-security-force/ > >>>>> > >>>>> Dr Shahidul Alam, well-known > photographer, and founder Drik, was > >>>>> detained by Indian Border Security > Forces while working on the > >>>>> Bangladesh side of the border on his > Brahmaputra project. He  > >>>>> called > >> me > >>>>> at 18:21 pm to tell me that the guards > had asked him to come over, > >> and > >>>>> then detained him at Sahapara 21 IPP, > across the border from  > >>>>> Rowmari. > >>>>> His two colleagues are on the > Bangladeshi side of the border, and > >> can't > >>>>> get to him. > >>>>> > >>>>> Please contact Home and Foreign > Ministry officials requesting that > >> they > >>>>> do all possible to get him released > immediately. It is worth > >> mentioning > >>>>> that the Indian BSF have detained and > killed many innocent > >> Bangladeshis > >>>>> in recent years, in the border areas. > >>>>> > >>>>> http://www.mediahelpingmedia.org/content/view/387/1/ > >>>>> News - South Asia > >>>>> By David Brewer > >>>>> Tuesday, 16 June 2009 > >>>>> > >>>>> Reports from Bangladesh say that > Shahidul Alam, the photo  > >>>>> journalist, > >>>>> blogger and founder of the Drik > picture network has been  > >>>>> detained by > >>>>> Indian border security forces while > working on the Bangladesh  > >>>>> side of > >>>>> the border. > >>>>> > >>>>> In a message to this site from Dhaka, > Alam's partner says he was > >>> working > >>>>> on a multimedia project about the > Brahmaputra with two colleagues > >> when > >>>>> border guards took him awa > >>>>> > >>>>> There are now fears for Alam's safety > and supporters are  > >>>>> calling on > >> the > >>>>> international community to push for > his release. > >>>>> > >>>>> The last message from Shahidul Alam > came through at !8:21 on  > >>>>> Tuesday > >> 16 > >>>>> June when he called home to say that > border security guards had  > >>>>> asked > >>>>> him to come over to the Indian side of > the border where they  > >>>>> detained > >>>>> him at Sahapara 21 IPP, across the > border from Rowmari. > >>>>> > >>>>> His two colleagues are on the > Bangladeshi side of the border, and > >> can't > >>>>> get to him. > >>>>> > >>>>> At the time Alam was working on the > Bangladesh end of the river > >>>>> Brahmaputra project. He had travelled > to Kurigram with two Drik > >>>>> colleagues to take photos, video and > stills. > >>>>> > >>>>> Contact has been made with a number of > local and international  > >>>>> media > >>>>> organisations and government > officials, including the Indian High > >>>>> Commission. > >>>>> > _________________________________________ > >>>>> reader-list: an open discussion list > on media and the city. > >>>>> Critiques & Collaborations > >>>>> To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net > with > >>>>> subscribe in the subject header. > >>>>> To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader- > >>>>> list > >>>>> List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> > >>>> _________________________________________ > >>>> reader-list: an open discussion list on > media and the city. > >>>> Critiques & Collaborations > >>>> To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net > with > >>>> subscribe in the subject header. > >>>> To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > >>>> List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> > >>>> > >>> _________________________________________ > >>> reader-list: an open discussion list on media > and the city. > >>> Critiques & Collaborations > >>> To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net > with > >>> subscribe in the subject header. > >>> To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > >>> List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> > >> _________________________________________ > >> reader-list: an open discussion list on media and > the city. > >> Critiques & Collaborations > >> To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net > with > >> subscribe in the subject header. > >> To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > >> List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> > >> > > > > > > > > -- > > Rajen. > > _________________________________________ > > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the > city. > > Critiques & Collaborations > > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net > with  > > subscribe in the subject header. > > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> > > > > > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the > city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net > with subscribe in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> From rakesh.rnbdj at gmail.com Fri Jun 19 07:19:25 2009 From: rakesh.rnbdj at gmail.com (Rakesh Iyer) Date: Fri, 19 Jun 2009 07:19:25 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Shahidul Alam detained by Indian Border Security Force In-Reply-To: <308286.46350.qm@web39104.mail.mud.yahoo.com> References: <308286.46350.qm@web39104.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: Dear Shuddha and Malik This is addressed to both of you, and I hope you don't mind that I address both of you in the same mail. First, to you Shuddha jee. I think you are being romantic in believing your conception of the world where people can move freely without breaking laws. We are living in times where nation-states (and a few state-nations like India) are a reality. I personally feel it would be great enough if we can have people crossing without any fear and problems. But there are numerous problems associated with such issues. The sovereignty of a nation is one aspect. In a democracy like India which has been reduced to a competitive exam (on the lines of IIT-JEE or other entrance exams), parties just want to secure about 20-25% of the vote (like saying a student needs to solve 25% of questions to get selected in IIT's), and then win the elections and form a government. And for doing so, all kinds of permutations and combinations are tried (here of course there is no comparison with IIT-JEE, except that permutations and combinations are a part of the syllabus of IIT-JEE). These are done with communities and castes before elections and with different elected members after elections. The end result is a disaster. In such a kind of democracy where to gain power people resort to competitive populism and not substantive issues, any such kind of migration would lead to a disaster as Malik jee is indirectly pointing out, because those who are migrating would clash with those who currently live for voting and other rights. And already the migration from Bangladesh is proving out to be a heart burn for many. And being a humanist doesn't mean that we can allow people to come here and then make them live in shanties or slums in the most utterly disgusting conditions, on encroached land, illegally for getting votes cheaply. This is not what humanity believes in. And we can't wish away the reality of a nation state, so therefore what we do need to do, is to institutionalize the migration of people for employment or business or other basis (maybe say migration after marriage), so that such people can come in, but get voting rights say after 10-15 years (through process of naturalization). Why not do this? May be you can come up with some other step. Let such people till then have labor cards or cards which guarantee them the chance to live in the country, but not get voting rights till they become citizens legally. Being a romantic will not help in such a case Sir. My suggestion may not be practical as it is mentioned, but why not think of a variant of such a method or even a new method which can ensure peaceful migration without problems, is my moot point. Now for you Malik jee. First of all, when people come to your place and live there, not only would you lose your former identity, but even they lose their own identity. The tribals of India, when forced to migrate because of displacement due to development schemes like dams and destruction of forests, have lost their identity too. Similarly, when Indians migrate to America, not only would America lose its former identity, but Indians too lose their Indian identity (and here Indian simply refers to the geographical entity called India and the culture and different sub-identities associated with it at different levels). Ironically, what comes out of it is a new identity in many cases. Take the example of the rule of Muslim kings over India. The identity of the then Hindu would have been lost in certain ways, the identity of a Muslim would also have been lost as they interacted with Hindus, and now we have a situation where Hindus use Urdu and Muslims also have the caste system among them! What a transformation! Isn't this too a loss of identity in some ways, and a modification of identity in some other way? Secondly, I don't want people to migrate only for menial jobs. Even if they do so, I would like them to come up in their life, as all of us would want to. And more importantly, while I agree with you that the current global situation would not allow us to do so, migration of people across the entire earth is a right which we should strive to achieve to. Making nation-states hasn't helped the majority of people, and we should look to do something different. The middle class anathema of anarchy probably makes them subscribe to an Indian state, but an anarchic state (which our Indian democracy is in and Gandhiji actually wanted this) is any day better than an oppressing system which the Indian state indulges in. India is mine, but not the Indian state. And last but not the least, Pakistani state has also started fooling its people like our state since its independence, which is why we have the problem of global terrorism (Our state specializes in fooling on development paradigm, Pakistani state is specialist in fooling on Islam and jehad). And it's our responsibility as human beings to fight against the foolishdom and useless propaganda being carried out in the name of terrorism and extremism, or other ideologies. Instead, it seems we are being washed away by such ideologies to become exactly like the enemy. And this is why the RSS wants Hindus to be organized like the Muslims, so that like the Muslims organize together in a riot, Hindus can also do so and conduct genocides like those in Gujarat. In other words, the RSS wants Hindus to live like extremist Muslims. And the extremist Muslims would like Muslims to be like the way the RSS wants Hindus to be. They are not different, except for their religious and organizational affiliations. Regards Rakesh From 2tahamehmood at googlemail.com Fri Jun 19 07:33:03 2009 From: 2tahamehmood at googlemail.com (Taha Mehmood) Date: Fri, 19 Jun 2009 03:03:03 +0100 Subject: [Reader-list] Shahidul Alam detained by Indian Border Security Force In-Reply-To: <308286.46350.qm@web39104.mail.mud.yahoo.com> References: <308286.46350.qm@web39104.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <65be9bf40906181903m2130c15x2abf0c96c0496d71@mail.gmail.com> Dear All In this curious case of Mr. Islam v/s BSF v/s BDR, could we see a subtle manifestation of various aspects of MNIC debate as an underlying subtext? All the filters, the tokens, the systems, the characters, the meta frame and so on seems to be present in this incident. I wonder why was Mr.Islam called over by the BSF? Some speculative/imaginary questions which could have possibly figured somewhere in Mr.Islam's interactions with both BDR and BSF- Can we presume he was carrying a camera when he was called over? Could this might have led to his movements being interpreted as 'suspicious' by the BSF? Was he carrying a Bangladeshi National Identity Card on his person when detained? if yes, then what role could that card might have played in his detention and subsequent questioning? Was he taken to be an fake Indian posing as genuine Bangladeshi by the BSF? Could a suspicion of perhaps a botched up national identity led to a closure by members of State apparatus on his person? Or was he taken as an genuine Indian posing as fake Bangladeshi with a 'genuine' Bangla national ID card which prompted the BDR to question his identity? To whomsoever it may concern- I'd would be extremely grateful if someone could kindly share with us any details of questions related to 'identity' or 'identity documents' which were asked by both BDR and BSF to Mr.Islam and how these questions were possibly resolved. Warm regards Taha From rashneek at gmail.com Fri Jun 19 08:49:19 2009 From: rashneek at gmail.com (rashneek kher) Date: Fri, 19 Jun 2009 08:49:19 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Hope in Iran? In-Reply-To: <0D746A4B-6B29-4439-9C60-3CC08964B91C@sarai.net> References: <0D746A4B-6B29-4439-9C60-3CC08964B91C@sarai.net> Message-ID: <13df7c120906182019m1efa7a61h729a06672ed1000b@mail.gmail.com> Dear Shudda, Iran is so difficult a psyche that one wonders what is right and what is wrong.A friend of mine from Iran once told me this.During Shah's regime I used to wear long skirts and Shah's soldiers would literally pull it up to my knees while now I wear a scraf and Basij pulls it to cover the last strand of visible hair. The problem with revolutions is that they breed counter-revolutions and while one despotic regime goes another comes.Iran has seen enough of it since the war with Arabs which they lost and the nation became an Islamic post.Firdausi describes it so well in Shahnama. Anyways one hopes that peace is restored in true sense of it and is permanent and not fragile. Best Regards Rashneek On Fri, Jun 19, 2009 at 3:57 AM, Shuddhabrata Sengupta wrote: > Dear All, > > The protests at what is rapidly unravelling as the 'stolen election' > in Iran are showing us a different face of Iran today. Hundreds and > thousands of peaceful men and women, assembling to denounce > Ahmedinijad as a dictator, all night long rooftop assemblies in > neighbourhoods that say 'death to the dictatorship' and a visibly > nervous 'Guardians Council'. Perhaps the next few days will show > which way Iran will turn. > > There are already reports of attacks on dormitories in Tehran, and > the regime's thugs have already killed several people, which has > unleashed another wave of mass protests. The BBC, which has an > excellent Farsi service (much better than many of its other bureaus) > has been doing a good job of reporting from Tehran, Isfahan, Tabriz > and elsewhere in Iran, and you can follow more links at > > http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/8108115.stm > > I am appending a matter of fact report that appeared on the AP wire > earlier below. > > I'd like to thank Paul Miller, who forwarded us Naeem Moaheiemen's > text, and the statement of the Tudeh Party. I hope that list members > will take the trouble to trawl through Iranian websites and blogs and > send us more material, and if anyone knows Iranian friends who can > write to the list directly, it would be great > > Hopefully, the Ahmedinijad regime, drunk for years on high petrol > prices, and now suffering from a recession induced hangover, brutal > and callous as it is, is on its last legs, but we have seen people in > Iran move close to liberty and then be crushed again, and again, > before. Let us home that Tehran does not echo Tienanmen. > > Many years ago, our own Urdu poet Faiz Ahmed Faiz, wrote a nazm > dedicated to Iranian students (Irani tulba ke naam), who were > protesting against the Shah's tyranny. And it goes something like this. > . > Yeh kaun jawan hain > arz-e-ajam > Yeh lakh lut > Jin kay jismon ka kundan > Yun khak main raiza > raiza hay > > (Who are these young men, > O the land of Ajam > These large-hearted > The jewel of whose bodies > Is scattered on dust in pieces) > > Let us hope that the jewels of Iran do not get scattered on the > streets of Tehran this time. Let us hope that Ahmedinijad and the > corrupt theocracy that backs him, meets the same fate that the Shah > did. Let us hope that what unfolds in the next few days in the > streets of Tehran leaves us smiling and not in tears. > > crossing my fingers, > > Shuddha > > > > > > Tehran protests stretch five miles > By ANNA JOHNSON and BRIAN MURPHY > The Associated Press > > TEHRAN, Iran | In a massive outpouring reminiscent of the 1979 > Islamic Revolution, hundreds of thousands of Iranians streamed > through the capital Monday, denouncing President Mahmoud > Ahmadinejad’s claim to victory in a disputed election. > > The huge rally — and smaller protests across the country — reinforced > what has become increasingly clear since the election: the opposition > forces rallying behind reform leader Mir Hossein Mousavi show no > signs of backing down. > > The rapidly spreading unrest also has pushed Supreme Leader Ayatollah > Ali Khamenei, the state’s most powerful figure, into the high-profile > role of political referee. Much of the real power in the nation rests > with the 70-year-old cleric, who reigns over Iran’s Islamic system > and functions as a one-man supreme court. > > In a dramatic turnaround Monday, Khamenei ordered an investigation > into election fraud allegations, just two days after he had urged the > nation to unite behind Ahmadinejad. > > The probe by the Guardian Council, composed of clerics closely allied > with Khamenei, illustrates the supreme leader’s desire to avoid a > drawn-out political battle that could endanger the stability and > legitimacy of the country’s Islamic theocracy. At the very least, the > intervention could buy time in hopes of reducing the anti-Ahmadinejad > anger. > > Khamenei is a hard-liner who has battled reformists in the past, and > whose support helped Ahmadinejad first get elected in 2005. But > analysts say he is also a political realist, and in the past he has > made concessions to ensure his main goals — his own survival and that > of Iran’s cleric-run system. > > It appeared that Khamenei had opened the door for Monday’s > demonstrations in a possible bid to avoid more street clashes and > seek some breathing room. > > But a single moment could change all that. Gunfire erupted from a > compound used by the Basij, a volunteer militia linked to Iran’s > powerful Revolutionary Guard. An Associated Press photographer saw at > least one demonstrator killed and several others with what appeared > to be serious wounds. The protesters had tried to storm and set fire > to the compound on the edge of Azadi Square, also known as Freedom > Square. > > Some reports put the death toll higher, but they could not be confirmed. > > Angry men showed their bloody palms after cradling the dead man and > the wounded, who had been part of a crowd that stretched more than > five miles supporting Mousavi. > > In his first public comment on the Iranian election, President Barack > Obama said he was “deeply troubled by the violence I’ve been seeing > on TV.” > > Although he said he had no way of knowing whether the election was > valid, Obama praised protesters and Iranian youth who questioned the > results. > > “The world is watching and is inspired by their participation, > regardless of what the ultimate outcome of the election was,” he said. > > Police and other security forces stood by quietly — some sitting on > stoops with their batons and shields resting behind them as the > marchers swallowed the streets in parts of Tehran. > > Mousavi made his first public appearance since the polls closed, and > he launched his claims that the vote was rigged to re-elect the hard- > line president. > > Brief clips of the march were shown on state television in an > extremely rare nod to anti-government protests. > > “Respect the people’s vote!” Mousavi cried through a hand-held > loudspeaker in Azadi Square, where Iran’s leaders hold military and > political gatherings. > > Shuddhabrata Sengupta > The Sarai Programme at CSDS > Raqs Media Collective > shuddha at sarai.net > www.sarai.net > www.raqsmediacollective.net > > > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > subscribe in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> -- Rashneek Kher http://www.kashmiris-in-exile.blogspot.com http://www.nietzschereborn.blogspot.com From sonia.jabbar at gmail.com Fri Jun 19 08:57:29 2009 From: sonia.jabbar at gmail.com (S. Jabbar) Date: Fri, 19 Jun 2009 08:57:29 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Shahidul Alam detained by Indian Border Security Force In-Reply-To: <308286.46350.qm@web39104.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: Exactly what the English think about the Poles, the Germans about the Turks, the Americans about the Mexicans, and the Australians, Americans, French, Germans, Italians, Spaniards, Canadians, Poles, Mexicans, and Turks think about Indians. > From: "A.K. Malik" > Date: Thu, 18 Jun 2009 18:13:30 -0700 (PDT) > To: Shuddhabrata Sengupta > Cc: Sarai List > Subject: Re: [Reader-list] Shahidul Alam detained by Indian Border Security > Force > > Hi, Views are very noble, interesting and appreciable from humane point > of view. But when you lose your identity,home, job because someone crosses > over illegally to your country, things become different. Global brotherhood is > easy to talk about, but difficult to implement especially in the current > environs.Imagine most Bangladeshis, Africans coming over freely to our country > to make our life more pleasant by doing menial jobs and terrorist walking over > freely from Pakistan...!!!!!!! Regards, (A.K.MALIK) --- On Fri, 6/19/09, > Shuddhabrata Sengupta wrote: > From: Shuddhabrata > Sengupta > Subject: Re: [Reader-list] Shahidul Alam > detained by Indian Border Security Force > To: "sarai list" > > Date: Friday, June 19, 2009, 3:11 AM > Dear All, > > > I think the detention of any human being on the grounds > that he is  > > crossing an artificial, ephemeral, man-made border is an > affront to  > our > common humanity. Borders come and go, and people will > move across  > them, > and have always moved across them, regardless of the > controls  > that seek > to restrict movement. Otherwise we would all > be  > uncivilised, uncouth, > provincial barbarians. > >   Shahidul Alam happens to be a very respected > > photographer, but his  > detention by an Indian border patrol would have been > just > as horrible  > if he were an honest, hard working peasant, > agricultural > worker,  > factory worker, cook, student, plumber or > sex-worker from > Bangladesh  > who happened to have got caught while being > on the 'wrong' > side of  > the insane labyrinth that is called the > India-Bangladesh > border . > > The city of Delhi, where I live, is sustained > by the hard > labour of  > many Bangladeshis who work as domestic help, as > informal > factory  > workers, as people in the formal as well as informal > > hospitality  > industry, as white collar workers. Not all of them are in > > Delhi  > 'Legally' but the city would be poorer without them, as > would > many  > cities all over the world. Imagine Rome, London, New York, > > Melbourne,  > Warsaw or New Delhi without the cheerful, ironic, gentle > > Bangladeshi  > who cleans homes, sells flowers, works as a doctor, drives > a > taxi,  > makes love, cooks meals, writes poems, builds houses, turns > > lathes  > and sings songs.  The free movement of people is a > precondition > of a  > free world, and the free movement of Bangladeshi people, > many of  > > whom, who with their immense energy, good humour and gentle > irony  > > sustain a more humane fabric of everyday life is what makes > life  > worth > living in many parts of the world. They show you the > way in  > strange > cities. They sing you a snatch of song. Sometimes > they give  > you an > unasked for discount on the bill at the end of a big > meal when  > you are > hungry. > > All those who oppose the free movement of people, whether > the > people  > are identified, or choose to identify themselves as > > Bangladeshis,  > Poles, Croats, Palestinians, Israelis, Pakistanis, > Indians, > Iraqis,  > Iranians, Afghans, Somalis or Congolese are inhuman, > > inhospitable and  > enemies of our shared humanity. > > On another note,  I > have said this before, but I will > say it again. I  > find the detention of > Pragya Bharti under preventive > detention laws  > as reprehensible as that > of Binayak Sen or those (many > young people)  > who are accused of being > SIMI or Indian Mujahideen > frontmen, or of  > being Maoists, or opposed to > circumstances of that prevail > Kashmir or  > in the North Eastern states of > India. > > Preventive detention, under any circumstances, is an insult > to  > > liberty and should be opposed, no matter who is being > detained,  > > whether it is Varun Gandhi, Binayak Sen, Pragya Bharti or > anyone else. > > > regards > > Shuddha > > > > > On 17-Jun-09, at 12:35 PM, Rajendra Bhat > Uppinangadi > wrote: > > > Dear All, one issue that is concerning me is, are > men > and women in  > > media > > above laws.? If they are doing any project, > they can > violate laws  > > of the > > land.? Is media responsible to > citizens of the nation > in which they  > > are > > operating.? Or they are > responsible only to media > barons and the share > > holders of the media > corporate to share the "profits" > of such  > > projects.? As > > the humans > work in different walks of life, do they > become above  > > laws if > > they > are say, politicians, judicial appointees and > executives, or  > > are > they > > appointed to serve the citizens in best possible > interests of the  > > > citizens.? > > > >   Now, as to current matter ubder > discussion, it is > to be noted  > > that if the > > border force do their duties sincerely, no > under age > married girls  > > can come > > in to India and work as dance bar > girls, sex workers > in as far as  > > south > > India, particularly in > Chennai, Bangalore, and > Hyderabad. It is  > > true that > > they have > practically no opportunities to earn a > living in their  > > bangaldesh, > > > but the sad issue is many of these married girls are > in southern  > > > India,, > > recently Bangalore police with Chennai counter parts > ripped > open  > > the network > > of this illegal trade of human traffick and sex > trade. > Local news  > > network > > channel 9 and Udaya TV and also Suvarna > tv covered the > issue > > comprehensively. Even with recession and lesser > > salaries, the  > > stressed minds > > are seeking extra carnal pleasures ? > > > > > As to this man of media, why he has not taken > necessary  > > > authorisation for > > the project work.? Is he under cover operative for any > > group.? If Dr. > > Binayak Sen can be held captive in detention for the > good > work he  > > has had on > > record, is not above laws, which ofcourse is > obnxious, > are men in  > > media > > above laws.? > > > >   Amusingly, the > fate of Prajna Thakur > and 12 others who are under  > > detention > > for > months now without any shred of proof has no > defenders of human  > > > rights > > talking or them.! None is concerned about these > detentions of > Prajna > > Thakur.? Perceptions of a few seem to be taking over > the rights > and  > > wrongs > > in society, when it comes to human rights of the > > humans.? > > > >   Regards, > > > >    Rajen. > > > > On Wed, Jun 17, 2009 at > 11:16 AM, anupam > chakravartty  > > wrote: > > > >> > Photographer Shahidul Alam spends 6hrs in BSF > custody: > >> > >> > http://bdnews24.com/details.php?id=87461&cid=2 > >> > >> > >> > http://www.indianexpress.com/news/Bangladeshi-photographer-held-- > > >> > crossing--Indo-Bangla-border/477648 > >> > >> Two versions of the same story. > However, if as per > the BSF  > >> officials are > >> claiming that Alam > crossed over in the Dhubri > sector, which is  > >> also my home > >> > district, the Brahmaputra river is itself the > border. during the  > >> > floods > >> immigrant bangladeshis in connivance of BSF and > BDR enter India > on  > >> boats > >> carrying pineapples from across the border. the no > > man's land  > >> mentioned in > >> both of the reports is actually river > > brahmaputra. > >> > >> thanks anupam > >> > >> > >> On 6/17/09, Santhosh Kumar > > wrote: > >>> > >>> it is hard to believe that > you will > believe.... > >>> > >>> On Wed, Jun 17, 2009 at 9:53 AM, Pawan > > Durani  > >>> >>>> wrote: > >>> > >>>> Hard to > believe ..... > >>>> > >>>> On Tue, Jun 16, 2009 at 7:55 PM, Shun-Ling > Chen  > > >>>> >>>>> wrote: > >>>> > >>>>> > >>> > http://unheardvoice.net/blog/2009/06/16/shahidul-alam-detained-by- > > >>> > indian > >>>>> -border-security-force/ > >>>>> > >>>>> Dr Shahidul Alam, > well-known > photographer, and founder Drik, was > >>>>> detained by Indian > Border Security > Forces while working on the > >>>>> Bangladesh side of the > border on his > Brahmaputra project. He  > >>>>> called > >> me > >>>>> at > 18:21 pm to tell me that the guards > had asked him to come over, > >> and > > >>>>> then detained him at Sahapara 21 IPP, > across the border from  > >>>>> > Rowmari. > >>>>> His two colleagues are on the > Bangladeshi side of the > border, and > >> can't > >>>>> get to him. > >>>>> > >>>>> Please contact Home > and Foreign > Ministry officials requesting that > >> they > >>>>> do all > possible to get him released > immediately. It is worth > >> mentioning > > >>>>> that the Indian BSF have detained and > killed many innocent > >> > Bangladeshis > >>>>> in recent years, in the border areas. > >>>>> > >>>>> > http://www.mediahelpingmedia.org/content/view/387/1/ > >>>>> News - South > Asia > >>>>> By David Brewer > >>>>> Tuesday, 16 June 2009 > >>>>> > >>>>> > Reports from Bangladesh say that > Shahidul Alam, the photo  > >>>>> > journalist, > >>>>> blogger and founder of the Drik > picture network has > been  > >>>>> detained by > >>>>> Indian border security forces while > > working on the Bangladesh  > >>>>> side of > >>>>> the border. > >>>>> > > >>>>> In a message to this site from Dhaka, > Alam's partner says he was > >>> > working > >>>>> on a multimedia project about the > Brahmaputra with two > colleagues > >> when > >>>>> border guards took him awa > >>>>> > >>>>> There > are now fears for Alam's safety > and supporters are  > >>>>> calling on > >> > the > >>>>> international community to push for > his release. > >>>>> > >>>>> > The last message from Shahidul Alam > came through at !8:21 on  > >>>>> > Tuesday > >> 16 > >>>>> June when he called home to say that > border security > guards had  > >>>>> asked > >>>>> him to come over to the Indian side of > > the border where they  > >>>>> detained > >>>>> him at Sahapara 21 IPP, > across the > border from Rowmari. > >>>>> > >>>>> His two colleagues are on > the > Bangladeshi side of the border, and > >> can't > >>>>> get to him. > > >>>>> > >>>>> At the time Alam was working on the > Bangladesh end of the > river > >>>>> Brahmaputra project. He had travelled > to Kurigram with two > Drik > >>>>> colleagues to take photos, video and > stills. > >>>>> > >>>>> > Contact has been made with a number of > local and international  > >>>>> > media > >>>>> organisations and government > officials, including the Indian > High > >>>>> Commission. > >>>>> > _________________________________________ > > >>>>> reader-list: an open discussion list > on media and the city. > >>>>> > Critiques & Collaborations > >>>>> To subscribe: send an email to > reader-list-request at sarai.net > with > >>>>> subscribe in the subject > header. > >>>>> To unsubscribe: > https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader- > >>>>> list > >>>>> List > archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> > >>>> > _________________________________________ > >>>> reader-list: an open > discussion list on > media and the city. > >>>> Critiques & Collaborations > > >>>> To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net > with > > >>>> subscribe in the subject header. > >>>> To unsubscribe: > https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > >>>> List archive: > <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> > >>>> > >>> > _________________________________________ > >>> reader-list: an open > discussion list on media > and the city. > >>> Critiques & Collaborations > > >>> To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net > with > >>> > subscribe in the subject header. > >>> To unsubscribe: > https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > >>> List archive: > <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> > >> > _________________________________________ > >> reader-list: an open discussion > list on media and > the city. > >> Critiques & Collaborations > >> To > subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net > with > >> > subscribe in the subject header. > >> To unsubscribe: > https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > >> List archive: > <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> > >> > > > > > > > > -- > > > Rajen. > > _________________________________________ > > reader-list: an > open discussion list on media and the > city. > > Critiques & Collaborations > > > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net > with  > > > subscribe in the subject header. > > To unsubscribe: > https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > > List archive: > <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> > > > > > > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion > list on media and the > city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: > send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net > with subscribe in the subject > header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> > _________________________________________ reader-list: an open discussion > list on media and the city. Critiques & Collaborations To subscribe: send an > email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with subscribe in the subject > header. To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> From monica at sarai.net Fri Jun 19 13:44:05 2009 From: monica at sarai.net (Monica Narula) Date: Fri, 19 Jun 2009 13:44:05 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Inside Teheran 01 Message-ID: <5C61D87B-AF7C-4CB3-A72A-AB34645E7902@sarai.net> Dear All I am posting here material sent to me by a friend in Teheran. best M June 13, 2009 9:05 PM The satellite signal for BBC Farsi just turned off. I had spoken a few minutes earlier with my father and forgot where I was and that probably my phone call was being monitored. In fact, about 5 minutes into my phone conversation, I heard a faint click on the phone and my father‟s voice all of a sudden sounded very far away, muffled, as if he were on conference call. I was reminded by my friends in the other room that I should be a bit more prudent about what I say and how I say it – maybe it wasn‟t such a good idea to start off my conversation with “There‟s been a revolution”. We‟ve been camping out at home for the past 48 hours. Last night we were awake, in front of the television until 6AM. Slept in until noon and since then, we‟ve been on high alert, full of testosterone, exchanging our disappointment, confusion, worries, nervousness interspersed with information, hear say, opinions and the occasional, very necessary, joke. The house has turned into a news room, all of our computers open and connected to the internet. A few of us are writing about the previous day‟s events as they develop; one of us is uploading video footage from today and posting it online; another is sifting through the continuous updates on Facebook profiles, delivering news-from-the-ground to us as it takes place through picture albums and wall posts. I‟ve been looking through a variety of newspapers‟ online versions: New York Times, LA Times, Guardian, Al- Jazeera, Washington Post. I‟m trying to see how what has been so unreal today on the streets here is being covered by the international media, and, as if it should be a surprise, it is quite disappointing for me. All reports cover basic facts, speculate about the future of Iran, and provide a selection of photographs from the demonstrations today. All reports maintain their professional distance, attempting to mediate between the passionate debates that have been taking place here not only today, but in the past two weeks as these elections drew nearer. I don‟t believe these opinions can be mediated, though. That‟s where the confusion lies. I find my oral fixation to have become quite extreme in the past day: I am popping small bites of anything any chance I get into my mouth: dates, nuts, fruit, cold pizza, leftover rice. I am drinking tea non-stop, smoking through a pack of cigarettes in a matter of a few hours. It doesn‟t help that all of us are tense in our own idiosyncratic ways – Reza paces from room to room, making phone calls and reporting on the alternative hear-say media that has developed into a complex system of analysis, rumor and melodrama in a period of twelve hours; Bani photographs, video records, smokes; Natascha is silent, smacking her mouth in bewilderment, writing in the corner with a clear, focused fire. We‟ve somehow become a family focused on “sticking through it together”. I started writing much later than everyone else because I forgot to bring my computer with me last night. I also resisted it, semi-consciously, because I thought that to merely write about the details of each moment (the only thing I could possibly imagine doing, given my inability to even understand what these details mean individually, let alone as part of the greater picture) would be too banal, potentially trite. After talking to Natascha, who has been my voice of reason and inspiration since the day I arrived in Tehran, I decided to get over myself and to just let go. No one is reading this but me. This is an exercise of focus. And focus is very important in such a circumstance in which no one knows what is going on: the dangers of ignorance. I need to focus to get rid of the passionate waves of anger, anxiety and sadness that come over me. If I do not focus, I will become violent, giving in to that particular form of interaction and display that those in control here want: a pandemic, psychological violence that replicates itself amidst a society, to distract and divide. Because I started so late, much has happened, making it a difficult task to recount from the beginning. But I think the context is important. The basic course of events is this: we voted yesterday, we sat and waited for the results around midnight, at that point it was announced that Ahmadinejad had won approximately 67% of 5 millions votes that had been counted, with Moussavi taking around 21% of the votes (the others, Karroubi and Rezai, trailed unrealistically far behind with 0.9% and 2% respectively). As the night progressed, the votes kept coming in – 5 million, 10 million, 15 million – and still the percentage of votes per candidate remained almost exactly the same. To me, this seemed a mathematical impossibility! Furthermore, BBC Farsi reported that the original 5 million votes, counted less than 2 hours after the polls closed, were those of nomadic tribes and military personnel. Supposing that the nomads are illiterate and their vote was hand-written for them and that the military unabashedly supports Ahmadinejad, the original percentile was almost believable. Yet, by 15 million, the numbers still hadn‟t budged. What about Tehran – in this campaign an oppositional breeding ground, especially in the northern neighborhoods of the city? What about Moussavi‟s home region of Azerbaijan, his wife‟s home in Luristan? And is it possible that not one person from Karroubi‟s home, also in Luristan, voted for him? The numbers for Rezai‟s 2% of the circa 25-27 million votes cast on Friday (a number that is also mathematically implausible, given the statistic of 84% of the voting-age population participating in these elections, making the total number of votes more around 35-40 million) totaled around 230,000. Given Rezai‟s position as former head of the Revolutionary Guard, an organization numbering up to 2 million, is it possible that so few supported him in this election? All of this made no sense. By 3AM, the newspaper Kayhan, itself semi-officially backed by the Supreme Leader, reported that Ahmadinejad had won the election. IRNA, the official Islamic Republic of Iran‟s news agency, announced Ahmadinejad‟s victory around the same time, even though the votes had not all been count. Hope clung on Tehran‟s votes as potentially turning the race towards a different direction. These hopes, what we were waiting for until 6 AM, quickly collapsed as soon as it became clear that something much bigger, much more serious had happened: a coup d‟etat. Even at this moment, almost 24 hours after the polls closed last night, no statistics have been presented on the regional makeup of the votes. It is unknown what percentage of the votes for or against Ahmadinejad comes from the Capital, from cities all around Iran, from villages, from the countryside, from wandering tribes and from expatriates living, working, and/or studying abroad. In this situation, there is no finger-pointing: there‟s no Florida to blame. According to BBC Farsi, never before in the 30 years of Iran‟s presidential elections have the votes been so unusually tallied, with no indication of where they come from. Last night, a friend of ours came by for a late dinner and told us that he had been driving by a polling station in Qeitarieh, an affluent neighborhood of northern Tehran, and had witnessed a physical fight between supporters of Moussavi and plain-clothes “Basiji” – self-appointed Islamic militiamen who have gained more and more authority under Ahmadinejad‟s presidency in the past four years. Supposedly, the Basiji had beaten up a few individuals and quickly left the scene. The polls were still open at the time of the fight. Most likely this was not a solitary case; it just happened that our friend had witnessed this particular incident. When I heard this story, I thought it was just a moment of unnecessary yet to-be-expected fanaticism from some punks, pumped up with testosterone and election fever. Now, in retrospect, I see something much more sinister in this story. It‟s especially cruel how, for the past week, there had been no attempt to stop supporters for each of the candidates from spilling out on the streets every night from sundown to sunrise. What we saw here over the course of a week was unbelievable: a surreal display of carnival, an excitement in anticipation of a much hoped for change that showed itself in crowds of men and women singing, dancing and chanting clever slogans, gathered from that day‟s political flops, in the middle of the street, stopping traffic and blocking turnabouts. Some of the things we heard on the street, such as “Death to this Violent Government”, “No More Lies”, “The Police have to dance”, “Death to Dictatorship”, as well as the slew of accusations thrown daily by the candidates at one another, exposing the perceived corruption, lies, money laundering and infringement of human rights (including naming specific individuals) that has infested the Islamic Republic‟s thirty years, all combined to form a political landscape so-far unimaginable here. How is this possible, we asked ourselves, in a country infamous for crackdowns on any form of organized public gatherings as much as for indirectness and secrecy from the side of its politicians as to its inner workings? The sweet smell of a strange, very Iranian form of post-revolutionary, homegrown “democracy” filled our days and nights with energy and curiosity. For the first few nights, only a handful of police officers and information agents could be seen, weaving through the crowds gathered on Valiasr Street, seeming as if they were more there to prevent a stampede or a fight breaking loose between overenthusiastic gangs of young men, seizing the political climate to break loose, show off, and have some long overdue fun. As the elections approached nearer, the police became less and less present, almost invisible. Alright, we thought, we proved to them that we are not a threat, we are not violent, we simply have something legitimate to say and we want to have fun saying it. I thought to myself that one should not underestimate the political potential of a good party. I thought to myself, this is beautiful, the Summer of Love 1969 sees its second manifestation in Iran of 2009. I thought there will be no need for a revolution, this is a social revolution of love, desire and bodies flowing through the streets, playing, experimenting, laughing, intensely experiencing their environment. Indeed, I thought, it is almost as if the people on the street are metamorphosizing into nature itself: strapping maple branches onto their arms, making crowns of oleander, waving palm fronds, throwing flowers at one another. It‟s so pancosmic – catastrophic transubstantiation in the face of an imminent disaster. If only we had perceived the imminent disaster and turned ourselves into trees or bushes or flowers! Now, in retrospect, this one week of freedom seems to have been a very Roman moment of grandiose distraction from the plans that were being hatched while people were too busy having fun to notice. This delirious week of Bacchanalia drew to an official close at 3 AM on Thursday, June 11th. The Election Oversight Committee announced that by this time, all demonstrations of support for any candidate were to be banned and all campaign material (flyers, posters, billboards, etc) were to be cleaned up. Thursday came and went, completely calm, the night was quiet and the streets were empty. No sign of the elections was to be seen – it was amazing to me how fast the cleaning crews had done their job, erasing all signs of a week-long party in less than six hours. No one wore green, very few held up the ubiquitous victory-sign as I walked through the streets. Friday, the day of the elections, was similarly calm. In fact, other than the half- kilometer line stretching out of the Zafaraniye School that I passed at 8 AM on my way to Tochal for an early morning hike, I wouldn‟t have known there was anything particularly unique about this election. Something uncanny: the weather! Every night for the past week, ominous clouds would gather at sunset, colored dark brown. The wind would begin to blow, spreading dust into the air, causing an immediate sneeze-attack followed by an itchy throat. Then, as it grew darker, the sky would turn brilliantly purple, lightning would strike followed by shattering thunder. I may be using very dramatic language to describe the weather, but for me it was a very intense impression to see that even the sky was as unpredictable and tempestuous as the streets. In fact, the night before the election, after a day of calm and quiet, the most intense of these storms occurred: I was sitting on the balcony with Natascha and a wind broke loose that blew everything off the table, roaring through the street, bending tree branches, echoing from the corner. A flash of lightning struck the empty pool in our neighbor‟s yard, followed by the loudest thunder I have ever heard. Natascha ran back into the house and I followed. It began raining hard for about thirty minutes and then, all of a sudden, it cleared, the air became cool, and the silence of the evening returned. This is most unusual weather for this time of the year in Tehran. Every time I have visited Tehran, it has always been during the period of May through August, and I have never seen such regular, tempestuous weather. Tehran rarely rains during the summer – it is usually dry, hot, dusty and scorching. Why this year, all of a sudden? Global warming? Friends from Berlin say the weather there is autumnally cool, also unusual for the season – maybe strange weather has become a phenomenon everywhere, but the coincidence of the weather‟s alignment with the political “climate” here is, for me, very interesting. Maybe the weather should have been more of a sign that things were not to pass so smoothly, that the quiet of Thursday and Friday was the “eye of the storm”. The first half of the storm was the thirst-quenching, drought- curing water of carnival; the second half of the storm began today: the violent hurricane that rips the city apart, leaves destruction in its path, kills as it rolls through with an unexpected force. And now, in retrospect, the Basiji bullies who our friend saw assaulting Moussavi supporters at the polls in Qeitarieh Friday evening were not bored punks, they were the shots- fired-too- soon, the miscalculated early gusts, the premature signs of the storm that a major intervention had been taken, potentially while the people celebrated in the streets and observed the Sabbath of calm before casting their votes. Manipulating distraction and the illusional appetizer of “freedom” to their benefit, these Basiji were the preliminary harbingers of a hijacked future for this country. Moreover, their gangster-like assault on voters foreshadowed the maneuvers that the police would take that night while people slept – or stayed awake glued in confusion to satellite TV. Absent physically for one week, the police were hiding, well-trained. An hour after the polls closed Friday, the police were unleashed en masse to the Interior Ministry, where the ballots from the nation had been collected to be counted. Simultaneously, the mayor of Tehran announced that from midnight, Saturday June 13th on, any demonstrations for or against the candidates will be illegal and will be strictly disciplined. A clash occurred as the situation unfolded – once the first percentages were announced, demonstrators gathered near the Interior Ministry, to be quickly broken up by the police. From this point, one dream ended and another began, both unreal. The military state. After our late breakfast, we decided to head out to the street. This was around 3 PM. Up till then, we had heard rumors that Moussavi was going to give a speech somewhere in Tehran and lead a demonstration to TV/Radio Central Headquarters. This was quickly confirmed as a false lead. We waited, waited to see if he would say anything, going into news room mode: Facebook videos and updates on organized demonstrations at Vanak Square, 7th Tir Square, Fatemi Square, Valiasr Square paired with BBC Farsi‟s call-ins from Moussavi supporters on the streets. The highlight of all this, right before we left the house, was a phone call from Moussavi‟s wife, Zahra Rahnavard, to BBC Farsi. Answering questions about Moussavi‟s position regarding the situation, Rahnavard directly addressed the “Iranian people”: They have played with your vote and are playing with your integrity! Stand strong! Do not give up! We became curious, or maybe we just couldn‟t stand being in the house, repeating the same news, speculating, worrying, and wondering anymore. We started to walk down Valiasr Street, the 21 kilometer North-South thoroughfare that is Tehran‟s quintessential “main street”, running from Tajrish Square at its northernmost point to its terminus at Meydan-e- Rah-Ahan in the southern part of the city. Traffic had come to a standstill on both sides of the street, cars and buses packed like tin cans and moving mere inches forward. The side walks were filled on both sides of the street with people, some standing outside of their shops or houses observing the street, others carrying on their usual daily business, and others walking, like us, fervently south, towards Vanak Square where the riots were supposed to be taking place. Soon we heard police sirens and saw a stretch of black police vans drive through the traffic, ordering cars and motorcyclists out of their way. The vans were filled with Robo-Cop clad police officers, other vans had cages attached to them, and the entire procession was followed by a chain of motorcycles, mounted two-by-two with police offers wielding batons. For me it was extremely unsettling that every time we stopped on the sidewalk to take a look at the show of military force, the police offers would turn their heads simultaneously and look at us directly in the eyes. It felt that they had an extra sense, able to perceive individuals from the crowd who posed any danger or criticism towards them. Their glare sent shivers down my back, as if they were memorizing my features in order to remember to come after me later. We decided it would be best to split up as a group, to not take pictures, to stop as little as possible, and to try and calm down – we were surely emitting a very tense energy. My face was contorted into a permanent scowl – I had to try and lighten it, to smile, to walk with a relaxed pace, to pretend that I was simply out for an ice cream. We walked alongside the stretch of police vans and motorcycles for around twenty minutes, when, at a major traffic intersection, the entire chain of police turned off of Valiasr street and drove onto the Niyayesh Highway. Natascha mentioned that their strategy must be a divide-and-conquer method – maybe some were going to other parts of town where demonstrations were also occurring, while others were trying to come up to Vanak from the side, in an attempt to take the demonstrators gathered there by surprise. As soon as we passed this intersection, we could see a crowd gathered up ahead, and then all of a sudden people began running, screaming “Go! Go! Go! They‟re coming”. From behind the crowd we saw a group of police officers marching forward into the street, a man ran past me yelling “They‟re hitting everyone, go!” We ran. Natascha disappeared from sight. I ran, following Reza and Bani into a side street where we could peep our heads from a parking garage and take a look at what was happening. Crowds ran past and the group of police officers made it to the street where we were hiding. They were about to come down this street when all the cars parked on Valiasr began honking vigorously, turning the police‟s attention to this unapproved display of solidarity. The police quickly jumped into the street and began climbing over cars, kicking car doors, waving their batons, and telling the drivers to stop honking. We walked back up to Valiasr and saw that the police were now weaving through the traffic, walking back further down. The cars kept honking at them, men and women holding up victory signs from their windows. Reza and Bani decided to walk down to Mirdamad Street, where the Vanak protest had managed to spread. I told them I would find Natascha first and then slowly trail them. We parted ways and I walked up two blocks to find Natascha. We deliberated what to do and decided that we were already too far away from home to go back. Should we pretend to not know how to speak Farsi if they catch us? How far down should we go? We decided that at this point, being caught is not even an option, nor is being beaten. Being so removed from this context, I had to admit to myself that I had never been in such a situation and therefore, do not know how to act. Not knowing what to do is extremely dangerous. We walked slowly towards Mirdamad, cautiously gauging the mood, tensing our bodies to begin running as soon as a signal was given from up ahead. We passed by a pedestrian bridge and decided we should go onto it in order to overlook the street. The bridge seemed like a safe place, at least for the moment it was removed from the traffic of the side walk, but of course it could potentially turn into a trap if it were to be used as an escape route and stampeded by fleeing demonstrators. From above, we could see the impressive line of cars stretching as far back and as far forward as we could see; we could see the crowds waving their hands in protest at Mirdamad and further ahead, a mass of bodies at Vanak which were, from our vantage point, indiscernible. I think we were on the bridge for more than an hour and this whole time we could see the back and forth clashes between the demonstrators and the police. There would be moments of pause, then the demonstrators would gather and wave their arms, chanting “Death to Dictatorship”. They would be allowed to assemble for a few minutes and then the police would swoop down and begin hitting, dispersing the crowd like a forest fire. The demonstrators would run up the street towards our bridge but then slow their pace, regroup, and inch their way forward, only to re-assemble where they had been before. This whole time, cars, seeing that traffic was no longer moving, began honking ferociously, men and women opened their car doors and came out on the street, held up their hands in victory-signs or waved green banners, and began cheering. We started to cheer to – I screamed my lungs out – from the bridge, the unification of voices and car honks cascaded into a rumbling wave of support and solidarity, seeming as if it were the cause of the lightning and thunder on the horizon. During my time on the bridge, I was amused by an Azeri Turkish family – mom, dad, three children and grandmother – sitting next to us on the bridge, leaning their backs against the railing and passing out snacks of crackers and nuts and candies amongst one another. The dad was pointing out where to look, trying to describe what was happening to the children. The grandmother had her hands over her mouth and would begin waving and panting as soon as she saw the crowds clashing with the police. The children seemed so very excited, as if they had not an inkling of an idea that what they were witnessing was, from a number of possible adjectives, serious, historical, severe, etc. As the family tensed and relaxed and ate their snacks, their actions gave me the impression that for them, this was serious entertainment, as though they were watching a Hollywood action movie in the cinema. It was a beautiful moment to observe them, to see their ability to remove themselves from the immediate situation while sensing that they were eagerly anticipating this moment for ages. This was for them, maybe I am assuming here, the chance of a lifetime for a movie-turned-into-reality that could, if all went well, alter their lives. Eventually the clashes became heavy. A major crowd had gathered at Mirdamad and this time the police unleashed stronger force onto them. As the crowd began running away, the cars started honking and the police became enraged, following the crowd further up the street, towards our bridge. We sensed that at any moment up to a hundred people could try and escape onto the bridge, only to be followed by the police, effectively trapping us where we sat, so Natascha and I decided to take the split-second opportunity and run. We stormed down from the bridge and began running up Valiasr, taking a look behind us only to see that the police were still in pursuit. I didn‟t look long enough to see if they were hitting people, I just saw metal and helmets and raised batons and decided to run as fast as I could. We ran past a truck that had been left parked onto the side of the road, filled with bricks. I later found out that the driver of this truck had been arrested with the suspicion that he was delivering bricks to the demonstrators, so that they could use them against the police. I imagined picking up a brick and throwing it blindly into the crowd, but this fantasy faded fast as I continued forward, knowing that the only power I had at that moment was to try and avoid getting hurt. Slowly we calmed down, realizing that we were no longer being pursued, and as Natascha and I caught our breath, we decided it would be best to go home. We had seen enough for the day to know how serious the situation was. It was important to experience the streets as they unfolded, as bodies collided and cars honked and news spread from mouth to mouth, a major difference from sitting at home watching TV and trying to piece together information from various internet sources. We still hadn‟t heard anything from Reza and Bani, who had been much further ahead than us, and we hoped that they were alright. In fact, a minibus was parked at Mirdamad, and while we were on the bridge we saw that the police were trying, in their efforts to break up the demonstrators, to grab anyone that failed to run away fast enough and throw them into the mini bus. Hopefully Reza and Bani hadn‟t been arrested, especially since both of them were trying to video record what was happening down there. Natascha called Bani but Bani hung up on her call. I told Natascha not to worry for now, just to breathe and to drink some water, have a quick energy-booster snack, and to try and get home. Natascha bought some chocolate and I quickly grabbed a pistachio milkshake from a street-side stall and we walked up Valiasr, stopping at regular intervals to eavesdrop on conversations – some people were recounting what they had witnessed from being in the demonstrations, others were spreading rumors, while others were talking about the 1979 Revolution, exchanging advice on what can be done today. A crowd was gathered around a street-side vendor selling books written by Sadeq Hedayet, an Iranian intellectual from the „40s and „50s who had written extensive, anti-authoritarian allegorical stories during the time of the Shah. As we approached our street, we saw a motorcade of police officers drive by: twelve motorcycles in total, the officers holding up their palms in a Fascist gesture of power, the head of the motorcade holding a baton of red flashing light. They drove past us and then back down, metaphorically flexing their muscles, confirming the militarization of authority taking place before our eyes. Finally they turned around and speeded towards TV/Radio Central Headquarters, where they most likely would either receive intelligence reports and/or station themselves to prevent a public attack. On our street corner, two women in their mid- to-late thirties stood, watching the procession of police officers, conversing in disbelief. I stood next to them to listen to their conversation. They began to cry, all the while holding up their hands in a victory-sign, waving at the honking cars that drove by. One of the women said to the other: “Just let them kill us now, watch, tomorrow they will put cyanide in the city‟s main water reservoir.” I tapped her on the shoulder and gently rubbed her back, telling her to calm down, wait, and hope for the best. I wished her good health and walked back with Natascha to our house. Natascha had just gotten off the phone with Bani, who had confirmed that they were alright – they had found a perfect spot at Mirdamad, on the balcony of a shopping center, from which they could safely observe and film the demonstrations. They were on their way home as well. And they were bringing pizza back! 11:28 PM The police just drove by our house, 8 motorcycles, two officers clad in black riot armor waiving their batons in the air. Natascha broke into the living room from the kitchen and said “They‟re on our street! They‟re driving by!” We ran to the front balcony to take a look and caught the last motorcycles speeding past – Natascha said she saw a group of women and their children, what seemed to be a family, chased by the police into our street and up the hill. Shortly after we had collected onto the balcony, the police drove back, calm, seemingly satisfied. Whether these women were innocently caught up in the situation, or whether they had provoked the police, this I do not know. At this point, we saw our neighbors collected onto their roof – they had a much better view so we asked them what is going on. They told us that a group of protestors set a trash can on fire at the entrance to our street. We began to smell the burning rubber. Our neighbors asked us if our satellite TV, internet and mobile phone networks have also been shut down – we confirmed all three with a resounding yes. Going to the roof now to try and see better – no TV, no internet, it‟s something to do, at least. 12:01 AM Just got back from the outside, after the observing from our rooftop Bani and I walked up to the intersection of our street and Valiasr. The trash can was no longer burning, but the air was filled with an orange haze. The weather itself has decided to revolt once again, continuing its unusual trend, this time even more appropriate: lightning and thunder fill the overcast sky. It truly feels apocalyptic. A friend came over and is trying to fix our satellite signal. He is on the roof with a roll of aluminum foil, and the others are sitting in the living room while Reza is yelling out the bathroom window. It worked! We have a terrible connection to BBC Farsi, but it is some contact nevertheless. Reza just read a report (I still haven‟t managed to figure out where he gets his news from) from employees of the Interior Ministry who quit their jobs today, announcing that they personally know there was a fraud and that the actual hand-counted number of reports is as follows: 16 million for Moussavi, 13 million for Karroubi, 5 million for Ahmadinejad and 2 million for Rezai. Who knows if this is true or not? The mood has become what I imagine what a revolutionary or pre-civil war situation must feel like: all communication networks other than the official state-run media shut down (which, by the way, is only airing religious programs, flooding the airways with prayers); communiqués delivered by the Opposition without any physical appearance or any idea of their whereabouts; semi-official documents circulating via unknown sources amongst the population, delivering conflicting news; the only way to keep updated on the latest developments is by resorting to hear- say, rumor and eavesdropping on conversations in the street; talk of hangings, assassinations, mass mobilization and what could-have-been; not knowing who supports who on the street (anyone could be part of a plain-clothes militia); neighbors gathering at the entrance to their streets, acting as guardians or even, as checkpoints. There is talk of giving it more time, and yet people eventually have to sleep, when will things stop? The sounds outside seemed to have been dying down, but now the car honks have started again, more than ever. How late will things go tonight? How many have been hospitalized or even killed? The police are now using electronic sting guns. Where is Moussavi? Why has he disappeared? Maybe, one rumor goes, they‟ve arrested him, or maybe he‟s left the country, delivering his communiqués from across the border in Turkey – an Opposition government in exile!! “So this is what a coup d‟etat looks like,” said a friend today. You go to bed and wake up the next day and see the police everywhere. The “military” government announces its unprecedented victory, calling it a sign of “divine approval”. And any sign of unrest is immediately dealt with through a show of the police state‟s force. Is this it? Being in the middle of such events makes it difficult to try and compare it with what one knows from history, or, the image of that history that one has in one‟s mind. Hashemi Rafsanjani is under house arrest. An unholy alliance (as Natascha just told me, “there is not much holiness left in this situation”) is forming between him, the Leader of the Council of Experts, former hard-liner President of the Islamic Republic, and the Reformist Opposition led by Moussavi. The Council of Experts is a body of Shi‟ite Islamic clerics, appointed during the early Khomeini era for life, to regulate the activity of the velayat-e-faqih, the Guardianship of the Cleric. Under Khomeini they had no power, given Khomeini‟s extraordinary combination of roles: Leader of the Revolution, Source of Emulation (marja‟i taqlid – the highest point of religious authority a Shi‟ite cleric can attain) and Supreme Leader of the Islamic Republic. However, since Khomeini‟s death, the Council of Experts have, legally, the right to intervene on matters of state regarding the Supreme Leader‟s decisions, even to the extent that if need be, they may remove the Supreme Leader from power. Not once in the thirty years since the Revolution has this Council convened to discuss a decision the Supreme Leader has made. In fact, rumor has it that most who sit on this Council are far removed from the political climate, preferring the academic environment of the religious seminaries in Qom than the hot-seat of Islamic politics in Tehran. However, Rafsanjani, as the leader of this Council, is the only person who can legally intervene in this situation. Khamenei has issued his official approval of the election results and has even recently issued a statement telling people to “keep quiet and behave themselves”. Until this point, many hoped that Khamenei would ask for a recount, or announce a second round of elections, but his approval of Ahmadinejad quickly put these possibilities far away from reality. With his support, no one, not even Moussavi, can legally act against the election results – otherwise, there will be severe consequences. Rafsanjani remains the only person: his expressed disapproval of Ahmadinejad and his support of the Opposition‟s campaign in the past few weeks may lead him to assemble the Council of Expert‟s to question Khamenei‟s statement of approval. As this has never been done, it is not imaginable what would happen if such a confrontation of power would occur. As this can be done, Rafsanjani, occupying the position of the so-to-speak “Homo Sacer” - he who is inside and outside of the law at the same time - has been placed under house arrest by the Supreme Leader. Tension! What strikes me as the most strange is how Rafsanjani, a core leader of the Revolution and historically an extremely conservative hard- liner, can align himself with the Reformist Opposition? Is he simply bearing a grudge against Ahmadinejad, who unexpectedly beat him in the previous elections four years ago and who formally denounced him and his family as “criminal” in last week‟s round of debates? Or, is he vying for power against Khamenei, with whom he has always had a troubled relationship and against whom he may also feel a grudge since it was Khamenei, a relatively unimportant yet extremely zealous cleric underneath Khomeini‟s leadership, who was appointed as Supreme Leader and not him? Or, could it be something else? The Basiji arrived onto our street. They were a group of ten tall, burly, bearded men, all wearing similar outfits consisting of boxy, white dress shirts, oversized khakis and dirty, clog-like black boots, holding in both hands large pieces of wood, baseball-stick like. The Basiji were chasing a group of women and young men, slamming their make-shift “baseball bats” onto the sides of parked cars and closed doors. The women were screaming at them, something the equivalent of “fuck off”, bringing the Basiji‟s blood to a boil: they were foaming at the mouth, raising their bats to hit the women, cursing them, telling everyone standing by watching – whether out of defiance or curiosity - to go home. When a woman popped her head out of her door to tell some of the Basiji that no, indeed, THEY should be the ones to go home, one of the men hurled himself at her. She quickly slammed the door in his face, to which his response was a forceful blow of his “bat” against her door. At this moment, one of the Basiji from further up the street yelled to his comrades to hurry up and follow him. The men ran away, charged with energy, raising their sticks in preparation for the next crowd they would encounter. I feel that there is so much hatred against these men, who have entrusted themselves (with the approval of Ahmadinejad‟s government) to control the people through intervening with their values of what they deem to be moral and “Islamic”, enforcing their will through violence and bullying. Some, melodramatically, fear that if Ahmadinejad remains for the next four years, the Basiji will develop into a neighborhood-police institution with unlimited ability to enforce what they, at the moment, believe to be true and appropriate. The recruitment and militarization of these civilians, the unofficial granting of full authority to their activities as well as the fact that many of them come from socio-economically troubled, abusive backgrounds may, at worst, create a Taliban-like situation in this country that would not be easy to solve in the future, even after Ahmadinejad‟s term is over. Monica Narula Raqs Media Collective Sarai-CSDS www.raqsmediacollective.net www.sarai.net From monica at sarai.net Fri Jun 19 13:45:05 2009 From: monica at sarai.net (Monica Narula) Date: Fri, 19 Jun 2009 13:45:05 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Inside Teheran 03 Message-ID: June 15th/16th, 2009 I accidentally broke two glasses and a bowl. Yesterday, I was visiting a good friend of mine, K., who lives in the City Center, around the corner from Tehran University, between Enghelab and Azadi Square. I was in the midst of kicking my legs up to stretch out onto the couch and my clumsy foot hit the edge of the small table nearby, knocking two glasses and a bowl onto the tile floor. My head was turned away when the accident happened, so the sound of so much glass breaking really took me and N., who had also come with me, by I remember reading something by Jalal Toufic about tripping, stumbling, falling. This was in the context of vampire movies, I believe, specifically , when the protagonist finds himself tripping before he enters the house where the vampire sleeps during the day. Trips and stumbles belong to the category of the clumsy foot, including not only things that fall but also accidental kicks and knocks. I suspect Toufic utilizes the aid of hallucinogenic narcotics, or, his use of them in the past has permanently affected his perception when watching and thinking about films, given his surrealistic analysis conversing without looking at each other and yet do not bump into each other, trip, for no apparent reason on smooth pl indeed such a person, not the one to trip on stairs or to bump into bodies in motion (in fact, I am quite choreographed in crowds), but sometimes I find myself performing the clumsiest act in the moment when I expect it the least. precaution (in states of altered consciousness the same is the case with: disposed and predisposed, occupied and preoccupied, monition and premonition; probably one becomes a sage only when one no longer needs presages), in the sense that one must forewarn by guessing where the false threshold is and warning about it and about being , pp. 16) a long walk from Valiasr Street, past Enghelab Square and Tehran University, joining the million-man silent march that took place yesterday starting at 4 PM. The march had been organized by Opposition supporters, those aligned towards Moussavi and Karroubi, through word-of-mouth and Facebook the night before. No official permission had been granted for the demonstrators to gather, but the sheer number of people, young and old, in conservative Islamic clothes and in the tightest, shiniest new fashions, students and civil servants, families and groups of singles, what appeared as the entire spectrum of Iranian society proved to be such a force of numbers that the police stood to the side and observed, looking relaxed, even bored. having officially met with Moussavi, who voiced his concerns to him yesterday, announced on state TV and radio that the Council of Guardians will set up an investigation into the allegations of fraud and tampering of the votes in this election. As the New York Times and BBC wrote last night, perhaps this is a way for the regime to buy time (the investigation period is 10-days), hoping that the promise of an investigation will settle people back down and pacify them, but in any case it is clear that the persistence of the Opposition and its supporters have caused the government, whether out of fear or cleverness, to mediate a deal. The absolute lack of police force against the demonstration yesterday (keeping in mind that without an official permission, the march was technically illegal) proved that the orders from above had changed their course. In a very smart manner, Moussavi had issued an order to his supporters gathering that the march should be conducted in absolute silence. With no access to text-messaging, most websites such as Facebook or web blogs shut down as well as satellite TV signals scrambled and march through a human network of friends-telling-friends, notes being passed, and signs being held up. At times, an unknowing, overenthusiastic individual or group would begin chanting and the rest of the crowd would quickly hush them, telling them that this was a silent march. Instead of angry shouts, the -sign for victory (or, in an American context, peace). Some held up pictures of Moussavi or Karroubi in their other hand; some held up their mobile phone, video recording or taking demonstr The crowds kept on coming, walking into the distant horizon was hidden from view either due to distance or the heavy smog that settles during warm summer days upon Tehran. Rumor had it that the march extended all the way to the other side of town, to Imam Hossein Square, adding an additional symbolic element to the march th century massacre of Imam Hossein - the on - and his followers by the Ummayad Caliph martyrdom at Karbala was a driving force in the 1979 Revolution, transformed -political model for resistance outside of the Western philosophical tradition of Hegelian dialectics and Marxist class struggle. According to Shariati, himself a French-educated i unique to Islam, one who combined ethics with faith and who sacrificed himself for justice to be served, therefore a role model for every individual seeking reform. The Revolutionaries related to Hossein on many different levels: as a devout man, as a political and religious leader, as a community organizer or as a criticizer of injustice, using the example of his martyrdom for their own cause: every time the police would shoot and kill demonstrators, the ceremony of mourning began around their martyrdom, more demonstrators would be shot and killed and so continuing the cycle. still used today by the revolutionary ideology to stress the honor of self- of death, in order to secure freedom for future generations. N. and I found it uncanny that the police doing anything yesterday. After two days of mass clashes between protestors and the government, the police had laid down their guard. We walked past the headquarters for Road & Traffic police and saw numerous parked police vans and motorcycles in the courtyard. A range of uniforms occupied the courtyard, gathered in groups spread all over the compound. Many of the young men (indeed, most of the police and military are ruddy-faced, sun-soaked, bearded young men, some exhibiting such diamond-in-the-rough physical beauty, their eyes almond shaped, their noses substantial, with rosy cheeks, dark skin, and 3-day stubble, it feels almost sinful to think of them in such a manner) were leaning against the iron bars that circled the courtyard, peeping out from between, looking at the crowds passing by. I made eye contact with many of them, not sure what I could read in their eyes, which looked to me completely poker-faced. Why were they just standing there, I thought? Seeing so many of them, knowing that more were in the building, not being able to judge their strategy for the day by the police gathered in the cou they were so big, so shiny, but almost toy- e that inside were bullets and how easy it can be to die. If I had tripped, something else may have happened, they would have noticed me. Imagine if I had broken glass in front of them surely that would have been a sign of attack! Premonitions and precautions the ability to feel that something is going to happen and making sure to avoid being stuck in a slippery spot when it does. So what could have lead me, in an altered state of consciousness (surely, since all of the past days events, as with last w like some oceanic dream), to not pay attention to my foot and its relation with its surroundings, causing me to break so much glass? I was preoccupied with thinking about writing while the streets were occupied by millions; it is not even an option to dispose of one system for another, although I would say that the people are predisposed to flights of fancy, therefore it cannot be sure if in the ten days they will tire of what they demand so fervently at monition means, but my premonition is electric. Swollen by subconscious processes linking my immediate circumstances to other, supernatural forces at hand, the lack of articulation I have been feeling (the articulation of this feeling has, itself, needed days to grow) manifests itself in a bodily gesture that precautions caution: broken glass. Square. Later, reports that one person had been killed and many shot when a crowd of demonstrators foolishly decided to attach the compound of the Basiji volunteer militia. And it is not to be taken for granted, the rumor that new additions to the Basiji forces have been flown in from Lebanon why? Because of their supposed detachment from the situation, guaranteeing that the beauty ploughshares, to abandon ship and escape to the islands of alienation that have been beckoning them. Why did the crowd break the silence and attack, endangering the other millions who had, for hours, tried to channel their energies to a different level? Did the attack occur at the moment of broken glass? I can only guess where the threshold is (that door, opening to the way of no-return), but I do not believe the direction of attack and confrontation lair and seeing that you have arrived too late, the last rays of the sun are disappearing, it is too much of a risk to remove t to stab the sleeping undead with a wooden stake. He is about to awaken! Indeed, violence has only been erupting Tehran in the pre-dusk hours, when the clouds cover the sun and it slowly begins to give way to crepuscular shades of purple and orange. I remembered another slip, trip, fall yesterday, happening well before the which can be debated as to whether that would make it a cognitive or a psychological error, or even, a spiritual one. In any case, my language failed, on separate occasions, temporarily each time it did so, it left me blank, silent not out of a will to be silent, but out of powerlessness. However, in one case, the failure of language became a slip of the tongue, a mis-articulation paired with an inability-to-articulate. It happened when N. walked from Enghelab Square, through the silent demonstration, asking people where -minutes worth of useful information, in the sense that the directions they gave were only valid for 5- minutes of walking in the direction they specified, afterwards we would be forced to ask again where we were and where we should be going. Having realized that we had walk two blocks back up and to make a left, continue two blocks, and then us, walking at a slow pace. Each time N. and I tried to hurry past them, they seemed to unconsciously step in our way their bodies filled the breadth of the sidewalk, not physically, but in the manner of their movements, how they swayed unpredictably from side to side, taking a step in front of your step- whose-goal-was-to-step-ahead. I uncontrollably uttered an indistinguishable grunt or roar out of frustration; a younger man walking with the ladies someone was behind them, moving aside to let N. and I. march forward. N. laughed, saying they were moving like cows. I asked her if she had heard my -in-in-volun-vorun-vollll- tary-rary- my feet, grunted again in frustration (more like a growl), and started to Farsi nor English nor German, nothing comes out write, I have no more so I opted for managing to get my full sentence out to N., who stood there laughing in had ever yelled at me. My heart immediately sank, my head grew dizzy, I felt the same feeling I felt when I had lost a present my mother had given me as a small child, a feeling of absolute having-disappointed. I laughed nervously, faint smile on her lips the meaning I received from what she said contradicted her expression. She crossed the street and walked faster ahead myself what had I said that was so offensive? What could have possibly put My sentence came back to me. I had experienced a state of utter without thinking about it. be un a frustrated N. She wa with me happening? Language, for me, is a very important thing, my only tool and talent find myself only with a particular affinity for language, in its spoken and present myself. In retrospect, all of this was a preface to the breaking of the glass (note - pre-face, before the showing of the face, as opposed to the removing of the face; yesterday at the University of Tehran, student demonstrators had gathered behind the closed gates of the campus, covering their faces with surgical masks, sunglasses and headscarves to avoid being recognized. They held up signs carrying numerous political messages and a number of them stood near, telling passers-by to refrain from taking photographs: visible and active, then we should also be aware of cuts in language, strange accidents and contingencies, as in the way the English language brings together as montage the face and sacrilege under the rubric defacement ). The breaking was an indirect and physical confirmation of what was happening all along: loosing language, the ability to articulate; loosing balance, the ability to navigate and feel out a space. r and my slippages were a sign that his spell was easy to fall under, his seduction great. The false threshold is that of resistance, the door that opens onto the site of the undead. The true threshold, what has yet to be crossed, is the threshold of subjectivity: the door that leads to a room of mirrors in which an individual sees his own reflection repeated unto infinity. Another moment of precaution, or, premonition: N. and I had a conversation on the corner of Valiasr Street and Enghelab, as crowds of people shoved past our bodies, turning the corner towards the unseen and unknown, joining the march (these crowds, just arriving, were not aware of the law of silence in place for the day, and so, for us, their chants expressed a far more acute will-to- violence than what we later saw was actually the case). The story of how we had made demonstration is important: for some days, N. and I had been planning on visiting K. The day before, given the clashes occurring up and down Valiasr, we decided it would not be a good idea. Yesterday, with the promise of the march, we decided it would be a perfect opportunity to visit K., since he lives so close to Enghelab and from his rooftop we could view the events passing by with relative security, in case they turned violent. great spot. When I arrived at the house from buying a pack of cigarettes and a peach-flavored soda, I saw R. in a manic frenzy, telling us that we need to leave now, that a friend is coming with a car, that we should hurry up. I had just received a phone call from my sister, who, with my mom, has been visiting our extended family in the city of Hamedan (6 hours west of Tehran) since last week. The entire time that R. was rushing us to leave, I attempted to multitask speaking with my sister, scarfing down leftovers for lunch, pack my bag and try a the house, the entire time my sister telling me an incredible story about how she had been terribly sick the past few days, plagued by migraine headaches, wrenching stomach pains and nosebleeds, and how women from our family had decided to come save her, placing her in bed and each taking on different healing roles: one praying above her head, another feeding her salty yoghurt healing energies, another casting incense over her, one crying, one pressing was beginning to grow impatient. I was running after R. and B., N. at my side, to the car, my mobile, testifying to her near-death experience and complete recovery without the aid of medicine or a doctor, only the tenderness of the women in our family. I told my sister I love her and that I have to go now, as the car began moving, turning off our street and onto the highway, speeding through traffic to get towards Valiasr Square as fast as possible. R. was receiving numerous phone calls, instructing him to arrive soon, informing him that the crowds were amazing and the march was going on as planned. B. was filming from the car window. R. had his hand out in a victory-sign. Yet, N. and I sat in silence. It was not that there was nothing to say; there was just no way of speaking, I felt. What had happened, why were we here in this car, where were we going? I was confused, I thought towards this demonstration, which at that moment felt like a death trap. And know if I should resist or why I felt the need to resist. When we parked the car close to Valiasr Street, R. and B. ran out ahead of us. R. turned around and told us to memorize where the car was parked so that when necessary, we could reconvene and go back home together. N. had stopped up ahead, turning corners with them and eventually ending up on Valiasr Street. At this point, N. told me that it would probably be a good idea to if the demo got bad. I started writing while speed walking and realized I so I stopped to the side and began quickly copying the address onto a second sheet of paper. N. complained that it was not going to work like this, that we had already lost R. and B., who were much further up ahead and swarmed in a crowd of people also speeding towards Enghelab. I responded that there is no other way for me to write the address began running. It was difficult, as there were so many people on the street. sewer, running what felt to be a concrete tightrope. Looking back, I saw N. nt to lose her in all of this. After a distance, double-checked to make sure it was really her. She was about to disappear around the corner of Enghelab the point of no return, I thought what could be happening around there? I had to catch her before she took the few extra steps necessary, otherwise, it would be over, no hope of contact, and our mobiles had no reception anymore. I yelled her name, she turned around, and I managed to quickly get up to her and pass her the note with the address written on it. She thanked me and then took one step forward, turned follow, I waited and looked back to see where N. was, I saw her from afar and waved my arms, holding up victory signs with both hands. Both of us were completely dehydrated. We bought two warm waters and stood there on the corner, in silence. N. started speaking to me in Farsi. We normally speak English when we are alone together, with B. and R. we speak Farsi and other Farsi-occasions include when in shops, restaurants or taxis (the taxi drivers try and rip us off if they hear us speaking a foreign language). It came to me as a surprise that N. was speaking in Farsi, even more so because she was trying to express something quite complicated. The language was challenging her ease of expression. I tried to follow along and felt that I understood the sense of what she was saying, connecting it to other thoughts I had. N. was speaking about a sense of powerlessness she had begun to feel. I had noticed that ever since a certain point the previous night, N. had put up an invisible wall, turning silent, her face and gestures hard to read. I felt her distant to me and this troubled me. Once again, another surreal moment: standing, wedged in the corner of the entrance to a pharmacy, with swarms of peo2ple shoving past us, moving towards some greater force attracting them, N. and I stood unsure of what to do, speaking about powerlessness, standing at a threshold and not up: it was when the Basiji had arrived on our street the other night and R. already written, from that point on, R. changed, his anxiety was channeled into panic, he began attempting to control what little of the immediate situation he could: he told me to begin writing, dictating to me what to say; he told N. to call her friends abroad, putting the exact words in her mouth; he asked frantically if we had a poster of Ahmadinejad we could hang in the house, in case anyone came to search; he told us that from now one we have to be extra careful, we have to hide our tapes, cameras and computers, we cannot let anyone into the house that we do not know; he told us that sometimes the secret service pretends to be the postal delivery man, that we should not be so easily fooled; and ominously, he told us that we should keep separate, for if one of us were to be caught it would be bound time for the others to be arrested, but at least some of us could escape with proper notice. For what? How had we come to this situation? R. was the one who had yelled at the Basiji, it was his own decision, none of us would have supported him if he had consulted us beforehand. The situation was dangerous in general, but now it had become particularly dangerous for us, not because we all acted out, but because R. acted out. And his response? To tell us what we have to do, how we have to think, what we have to say and write and how we have to act. A system of values, clearly distinguishing between right (us) and wrong (them) was put into place at this moment. A force of power, weak and self- conscious, dragged us with it, subjecting us to its authority, telling us to make up for As N. described this feeling, I began to see the reason for my silence in the car. I thought of the last report I had written and began feeling sick at parts of it, the tone it had, as if someone else were speaking through my words, as if I were possessed by a greater being. . She asked me: why are you writing? I asked her: Previously, I may have responded differently, in fact, I think I ended my last report with an implicit motivation for writing: to let the world know what we are going through. But how did I manage to let my subjectivity slip past me, transforming into a collective voice? When was the moment in which . What is there to know? To know what not to know, as Michael public secret, as is the case with most important social knowledge, knowing what not to know? Then what happens to the inspired act of defacement? Does it destroy the secret, or further empower it? For are not shared secrets the basis of our social institutions, the workplace, the family and the state? Is not such public secrecy the most interesting, the most powerful, the most mischievous pp. 2) be easily articulated, certainly not on the ground, face-to- Taussig, pp. 6) that we were standing at the real threshold, the threshold over whom one step forward would lead to the loss of subjectivity. Subjectivity is at stake here develop a new language; I thought to myself, that when I write I want to write outside of the given categories of fiction, non-fiction, journalism, criticism, etc. There is something complicated going on and it is important to stress that there is nothing right or wrong in this situation: images of the police and military violence against the Iranian people have been spreading like wildfire in the past days; writers, whether journalists or bloggers or individuals like myself who are looking for a channel to clarify their experiences have described what they have seen and indeed, this has necessitated descriptions of the violence against the people. Although all these experiences are true, they really happened and it is important to make clear how real everything is here through such documentation, a question of representation arises and which is, in my mind, what complicates the entire violence without transforming into violent language? To extend the argument, properties of spreading, word for word, into every nook and corner of reality, multiplying endlessly. On the one hand, a tidal wave occurs, the representation of violence overwhelms and moves one to action; on the other it is a viral dissemination by language, violent as it is, that joins in the individual to a collective will of ethical retribution. This retribution may take the way of revenge, or of a demonstration, but it may also take a much more sinister, unconscious manifestation, that of a will to power, to react instead of act, creating those who, so moved by representing reality, chose to force others to react with them, creating a force that replicates the To articulate a narration that examines violence and justice, not only as a concept but as a practice or a narration that acts with violence (even unconsciously, as it may have been doing so far) and its concomitant justice (who will reply to my voice?) requires a voice-over that is never present as such. Much like the angel of death, this narrative is a story that, through its telling, prolongs the perish during the course of events that the story provides. By life, I mean to say that through writing, I can remember that I lived through this, which be alive, alone, myself, even when in a demonstration of millions. I received a moving e-mail from a friend yesterday, who prefaced it by saying that she knows it may sound all too strange, but that she envies me being here. For me, this had a different meaning, as if she we like to live, f Now, after all this, I finally wish to learn to live! But without a comma? Does the meaning then depend on an infinitive construction to live finally? Is this a complete verb? What would it mean? To live And am I able to show, describe, write about, in any way practice how to live? Do I live more because I have passed one threshold (come to this country), yet another (participate in the events here through observation) and await one step before a final threshold from which I cannot return (losing my subjectivity either through physical death or through relinquishing my agency to authority)? Today, there was a similar march, significant in numbers although less than yesterday, along Valiasr Street, from Valiasr Square to Tajrish Square. The march was also silent and its purpose was to convene onto the headquarters of TV/Radio, near where I am staying. There, in front of the state-run broadcasting center, heavily fortified by military, police and plain- clothes personnel for the past few days, a wave of hundreds of thousands, stretching up and down Valiasr as far as I could see standing on my tip-toes, sat themselves down onto the pavement, waved green flags, held up signs with images and text on them, and observed the law of silence. There was something s demonstration. I had seen signs announcing the demo for today, although I thought that everyone would meet at Valiasr Square and march further south towards the main cemetery and the railway station, but N. called me earlier this afternoon to tell me that the demonstration had been canceled due to security concerns. Apparently, last night the police/Basiji had raided hundreds of homes and arrested many people, jumping the death toll from one killed during the demonstration itself yesterday at Azadi Square to seven in total, when counting those killed in their own homes last night. This crackdown was a serious matter, a perfect complement to the feigned generosity of the police standing by, watching in boredom during the march yesterday. Of course, one should not expect anything more: no violence during the day only presupposes even greater violence, stealthier, crueler, at night. Perhaps the helicopters flying by yesterday were zooming in and taking photographs of the crowd, and perhaps the security forces later scanned faces and picked ones at random to target for the evening. Who knows? Regardless, today seemed like a calm day. N. dropped by in the afternoon after class. I was no longer staying with B. and R. and instead I had gone back to my own, single apartment. The previous days I needed a sense of community and company to make sense of the situation, I needed to feel d so I had been living unofficially with B. and R., where N. also lived, absorbing a particular rhythm that no longer had the were developing between and around us. When N. came over, I saw that I had run out of cigarettes so I ran downstairs to pick up some smokes as well as a few things for an afternoon snack. As I walked to the supermarket, I saw cars backed up on my street, turning around the corner and lining up all the way to Valiasr Street down the hill. Many people were walking down towards the main street. I thought to myself that I guess the demonstration was taking place after all. In the store, I browsed for a few snacks, bought a couple of phone cards and paid. The clerk leaned he pulled back his head and shot a greeting to a few older, bearded men who came in the shop. His secrecy was strange. This was a relatively affluent neighborhood, there was no reason to fear, then again, maybe he has found unexpected pressure on him and his shop from someone. I resisted the temptation to walk down to see the demonstration, especially since I had accidentally locked N. in my apartment. I went back up and told her that the demo had taken place anyway and she confirmed that R. had called her and told her about it and asked if she had taken the camera by mistake, as he wanted to document it. I realized that in my confusion and browsing (I take ages to by groceries, I deliberate too much), I had forgotten to buy what I had originally gone downstairs for: cigarettes. I went back downstairs again, decided to go down the hill to Valiasr Street and take a look. When I got down, I saw that the streets were full. I tried to eavesdrop on the conversations, my usual way of assembling information (I particularly enjoy the exaggerations and contradictions in what people say to one another). I asked an older man for a light and asked him about the demonstration: had people gathered at Valiasr Square and walked up, because it seemed that arriving, but walking down from Tajrish Square further up north? He said that , but the crowds extend down to Valiasr Square, except that from Vanak on Ahmadinejad supporters are gathered. They had been brought by the busload, emptied onto the streets and told to show their support for the President. I asked if there had been clashes between the two groups and he said, yes, and that the Basiji had also driven through the crowd a few times in the past hour. I looked down onto TV/Radio Headquarters, known as Jaam-e-Jam, and saw police snipers hiding behind trees and bushes, observing the crowd closely. I saw a group of Basijis gathered in the driveway of Jaam-e-Jam, talking to one another. All of a sudden, the crowd began chanting. Many started hissing, an the government and the President with cheap slogans. Many of the older women observe simple silence. I found myself fuming I was so angry that a select few were willing to selfishly spoil the situation for everyone involved, just because they felt the need to violently proclaim what they thought to be silence was; today felt tense, broken up, individuated into smaller groups, people seemed to be watching and waiting for something, rather than bathing in the confidence and satisfaction of the leveling power of silence. I walked towards a group of older women and began complaining to them need to be quiet! It is so important to be silent, especially now in this unleash the Basiji, who are just waiting for an excuse to arrest, beat, stab, shoot, whatever, to inflict punishment onto the crowd. Soon those who were chanting stopped, but the mood remained very uncomfortable. I saw R., he came and tapped me on the shoulder. He was furiously smoking, sucking on his exclaimed how beautiful the turn out today had been. He shuffled back and forth nervously and then, when I turned my head, walked away and disappeared. After R. left, I saw a man walking towards me, he was wearing a baseball cap, sunglasses and a surgical mask to avoid being recognized. He walked in silence through the crowd, holding up in one hand a sheet of paper upon which Underneath the text, there was a collection of eight images, taken from the international media, of individuals who had been wounded or killed during the demonstrations in the past days. These images were the same ones circulating through AP and Reuters, reproduced in the New York Times and the BBC. One showed a woman being beaten by a group of Basiji and police. Another showed a dead body in the back of a pick-up truck. The most disturbing was the image of a middle-aged man, fallen onto the pavement, his head had, for lack of a better word, exploded from a close-range, point-blank gunshot. In the same hand that the man used to hold up this sheet of paper, he held a single, long-stemmed, white gladiola flower. He walked in absolute silence, valiantly displaying the images. A crowd of people huddled around him and followed him looking up at the images. All of them scrambled to get closer, hands shooting up into the air with mobile phones taking pictures of the picture, or of the sure. The group of people surrounding him naturally increased and decreased, people came and went, but everyone seemed to be attracted to a single point of view, fixating their motions and gaze onto the raised arm holding the sheet of paper and the flower, confirming their experience of this event with the necessary mobile phone photograph. I thought to myself how beautiful this image was, of people taking images of an image, and how I thought about the power of the silence, in the demonstration as a whole and at this one moment, in which more than mourning was occurring, mourning that precipitates silence out of honor, but which also, typically, demands wails and screams. No wails and screams here, just wet, wide-open eyes and the shutter click of camera phones. What I am seeing, the observation of silence, the awareness of representation in the gestures that people are taking, the words. Unlike words, silence, however, leaves much open room. Its power comes from the range of interpretations possible, as well as the possibility for silence, since it is demanded, but it remains as it is, pervading the space of those who experience it, saying, silently, to pay attention more acutely, to think individually, to try and figure out what is going on and why there is silence to begin with. The silence of the man and his images, of those gathered around him, of those - to learn to live, finally, the most I can show is that one must not privilege disaster as authentic experience, nor must one valorize struggle as deep in meaning. Finally, I come to where all these thoughts stem from: how to develop a new language to articulate what is going on here, to which I must add, a language that articulates not being able to articulate, knows what not to know? While writing this report, a paper I had written a few years ago comes to my mind, and I think parts of it are suitable to lead the process forward: Seven years before writing On the Concept of History, Walter Benjamin outlined his theory of mimesis in On the Mimetic Faculty, which would serve as a basis for his greater project to read non-texts. The natural which man creates analogies and similarities to the natural stimuli he encounters. Benjamin focuses his argument on language as mimesis: language is far from a system of signs; instead, it is the bearer of a nonsensuous similarity that guarantees wholeness in the experience of the world. The perception of meaning occurs at brief moments, flashes of gnosis, which simulates the entire world through language. Language has its roots in the inexpressible: to read what was never written, such reading is the most ancient reading before all languages, from the entrails, the stars, or dances. What is the most crucial, for me, at this moment is to try and operate in an in-between state, especially in regards to language. In my earlier slippages, I encountered the power of a language removed from access to subjectivity and individual, sensuous perception. In realizing this alienation from my own self, I now feel that there are other things that can be read beyond what I immediate see and perceive, a defacing that faces, revealing and hiding, back and forth, contradicting itself like the blind prophet who augurs. The in-between-state, what this entire experience has actually (also as in currently) been/is, feels hallucinogenic, yet in this altered state of consciousness I feel myself much more only when I force myself to open my eyes in the water. At night, the honking of invisible cars endless circularity; in the silent demonstrations, each sound bears more weight, a human voice feels offensive and needs to be quickly hushed; the hum of the TV, the velocity of the news reported, in combination with shuffling through online versions of newspapers, creates a wall of information that here. What is written is not to be read: the language I am searching for exists in my nonsensuous similarity to the environment, the possibility of changing into air or rocks or trees, the circularity of chants and silences open to any and every and no meaning all at the same time, an image of an When we were at yesterday, we turned on Iranian state-run TV to see whether they were reporting about the demonstration that day. On one channel we saw a wildlife documentary about turtles. Another channel was airing some after-school program about mathematics. The news station was reiterating the county-by-county tally of the election results, showing how the votes were broken down between the four candidates in every municipal exclaimed N. Millions of people gathered outside for the past three hours and all they show on national TV is turtles. Nothing is happening at all, the world is permanently the way it has always been, time circling in loops. Coming from outside and then to watch Toufic, p the cause of a return-to- of the whack on the brain (the first vote counts came in within 1 hour of the -run TV has managed to masterfully enact. feeling that what united the people was a certain impatience and desire for a leader, for someone to tell them what to do. In my opinion, the importance of such demonstrations goes beyond demanding one authority over another. In fact, for me Moussavi has become completely unimportant I, among others, was realistic before the elections and after that Moussavi, or any politician, is a savior who will come to change everything wrong with this country. His position is most likely decided, I doubt the vote will be revoked and even if it is and he becomes President, it is less of importance to me than what the circumstances of the situation have produced and how they came into existence in the first place. Rather than following, being pulled, pushed, forced into silence or acceptance, it is important to feel and experience, to be unsure, to speak when it is necessary to speak, to participate when it is desired to participate, allowing for the structures of authority that are in place and that can easily replicate themselves to become malleable in the face of a strong will, at the hands of each have come to After a few rounds of call and response, one of the neighbors shouted from y related to the current st cause and they returned back indoors. The nerve! Why should I ruin the which is so intelligent in how it reveals and hides, in how it perfectly embodies the most powerful form of social knowledge knowing what not to know for a direct, cheesy and (dare I say) trite invocation for someone, an old man who may look friendly but who was Prime Minister in this country from 1981-89 and who also, in his time, imprisoned and killed many students, effectively enacting this regime implicit approval? What need do I have for a leader, someone to replace the form but whose content is still basically the same? er completely novel, and no act can ever be quite appearance of meaning that must be transmitted among subjects through replications, which teeter between a known pattern and its innovation, or, recreation. The variation is usually minor, but significant in that the event cannot be experienced in a present-present, but as a past-present representation, in which the past action is bound to an authoritative present interpretation. The revolution is a representation, assuming the temporary satisfaction of internal, spiritual flows, yet rewriting the same form, different in immediate content alone, onto the body. The subject is unknowingly recreated into the same creation. The power of this moment is the ability to have a reform movement that needs no leader to save the people: the people save themselves, subtle and clever, indirect and playful, through using the structures that keep the system in place against itself, as a mirror reflection that shatters when the vampire throws his glance. How play fits into this becomes an issue of the bodies involved, and play creates relations between bodies that are primarily individual to individual, channeling and connecting subjective energies. For me, one of the interesting -conscious guilt towards the describing whether out in the street, amongst demonstrators, at home writing, more subtle way, a way that views situations as more than just physical surfaces, rather as sensuous environments. The repression and guilt is especially strong when I sense the sexual aro appearance brings forth, but that is more the result of an immediate, fetishistic connection between sex and death which is a direction I do not pressing subjectivity, similar to the trips and falls of language and feet, exacerbated by the altered states of consciousness that turtles, mathematics and public secrets provoke through amnesiac lapses. It is almost as if the militancy of the moment, in its will-to-authority (control and be controlled) as such. But when it comes up, I am realizing, it offers an opportunity to play with the immediate situation, a play-dough situation in which one can explore the many sensations that a language-other-than-words provides in its openness. On my way home last night, a car drove around the corner, flashed its lights at me, honked and then screeched to a halt next to me. The window rolled down: two girls, neither wearing headscarves, dressed to go out, the smell of perfume oozing from out of the car window. One of them, the driver, a dark haired, red-lipsticked, charcoal eyed young woman asked me in -sign, smiled and asked me where I was coming from. I told them I had been at the silent march on Enghelab earlier and was now coming home. They were immediately excited, asking me all the details: what was it like, what happened, how many people were there, was it true that 15 people were shot? I asked them if they had been there and they said no, they were too afraid to go. In return, I scolded them for their mistake, declaring that it had been a truly inspiring and beautiful day, stressing how important the silence was. They giggled and I heard the girl in the passenger seat, who had tiny features, pale skin and light brown curly hair say that she found my way of describing the situation demonstration the next day, to take place at Valiasr Square at 5 PM. The driv girls burst out in excitement, switching to English and asking me to come with them to a party. I declined the offer and the driver held out her hand I gave her a high five and then she wished me much luck and blew me a kiss. I I had never in my life had two girls try and pick me up and now it happened, years. Earlier that day, N. and I took a break from the silent march and found a very small and well- toilet and I lay down on the grass and smoked a cigarette. I noticed many young men in the park, gathered in groups, which is in no way unusual in a society traditionally used to self-segregation between the sexes, except for the fact that all the young men were quite handsome, quite athletic, quite well dressed, and quite physical with one another. They exchanged furtive glances between groups and many loitered around the entrance to the public toilets. Some were sitting on benches, their legs spread open, their arms behind their heads, tapping, as if they were waiting for something to come by, showing off their figures and their packages in anticipation. This was only a small section of the park, coincidentally around where I had decided to lie down and wait for N. to return from the bathroom. When N. came back, I attracted to the combination of tan skin, youthful arrogance, big eyes and perma-stubble on exhibition at the park. As we got up to leave, I saw that the rest of the park was filled with elderly men playing backgammon, completely oblivious to the well-hidden cruising going on a few meters away. I wondered to myself if this was a product of the day s energy, in which everything had been turned into an incomprehensible chaos, or if these young men were park regulars, and if, on normal evenings, the tone is much more amplified than it was at that moment the street-fest atmosphere of the demonstration and the mixing of Tehranis from all over made it hard to feel the situation out. In both of these examples, these instances express for me an impossibility of denying the body, or even, of material in favor of ideology. The Gnostic urge to purge the earthly for the greater, cosmic spark is not an emotion that subjects, speaking from my own I , feel naturally. In fact, the power of ideology s seduction makes it even more necessary, I believe, to let subjective, fleshly attractions pervade and enrich the greater events occurring too-fast-too-powerful to be truly understood: sexuality is a play whose rules are easy to understand and in which trial, error and experimentation are the only ways of learning, offering the opportunity to slip, trip and fall. The necessity to feel one s body even more exists in such moments, when the body is at the brink of letting itself go for something it does not and cannot know, something which, with a step past the false threshold, will be too late to articulate. Monica Narula Raqs Media Collective Sarai-CSDS www.raqsmediacollective.net www.sarai.net From monica at sarai.net Fri Jun 19 13:44:31 2009 From: monica at sarai.net (Monica Narula) Date: Fri, 19 Jun 2009 13:44:31 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Inside Teheran 02 Message-ID: <75AAA5DA-932B-47A3-969E-7D187559C4D5@sarai.net> June 14th, 2009 8:45 PM It‟s still less than ten days before the official beginning of summer. Although the weather may be warm and the blossoms are gone, it is, according to the position of the Earth in relation to the Sun, spring. Tehran Spring. A period of political liberalization under a Reformist government, backed by popular approval against the Soviet-backed Socialist system in Czechoslovakia in 1968 has come to be known as the Prague Spring. Infamous for the brutality of the Soviet and Warsaw Pact tanks rolling into the city of Prague eight months after President Alexander Dubcek loosened restrictions on speech, the media and travel, millions of demonstrators were crushed within seconds, although they remained peaceful the entire time. Czechoslovakia remained occupied by Soviet military forces until 1990, when the Socialist system collapsed. The Prague Spring may have not been successful from a populist, anti-authoritarian perspective, but it indicated a trend, rising in Europe and the world at the time, that unrest existed on many levels: cultural, economic, social, and, most importantly, ideological. The demonstrations in Prague temporarily shadowed the International Marxist movement, popular amongst intellectuals in Western Europe, as the USSR proved once again that the utopian yearning for revolution had seceded to authority hungry for control. During the early months of the Prague Spring, inspired by the Socialist reformist experiment in Czechoslovakia, students in Paris and other Western European cities set the university ablaze, workers went on strike, and the bureaucracy collapsed. A glimmer of hope, only temporary, until the moment of the Grand Compromise between the „68ers and De Gaulle‟s government occurred one month later, effectively paralyzing Leftism in the West until even today. This paralysis was confirmed by the multilateral Soviet crushing of the reformist movement later that summer. Foucault‟s take on the Iranian Revolution has always been controversial. His articles in France were read with disdain, as Foucault effectively stepped outside of his typically meticulous mode of analysis to embrace a Hegelian “Spirit” embedded deep within his psyche. He praised the “collective will of the Iranian people” as an undeniable, inspirational force to be reckoned with and to learn from. He was, per chance, nostalgic for “true”, “authentic” revolutionary movement, a nostalgia whose origins lay potentially in the dashed hopes of May 1968. Yet, in an interview between Foucault and journalists Claire Briere and Pierre Blanchet (“Iran: The Spirit of a World Without Spirit”), Foucault exhibits moments in which his analytical clarity shines: “It is true that Iranian society is shot through with contradictions that cannot in any way be denied, but it is certain that the revolutionary event that has been taking place for a year now, and which is at the same time an inner experience, a sort of constantly recommenced liturgy, a community experience, and so on, all that is certainly articulated onto the class struggle: but that doesn‟t find expression in an immediate, transparent way.” Today, the left-leaning newspaper “Ehtemad-e-Melli” (National Trust) published an empty white page as its front cover. Underneath the newspaper‟s logo and date, it was written that here there should have been an article written by Moussavi and Karroubi together, but unfortunately the newspaper received strict orders from Ahmadinejad that it was not allowed to print this feature. Voice of America‟s Farsi-language service just showed footage, taken by an Italian visitor to Tehran, of a crowd of demonstrators from yesterday cornering a police officer that had been beating numerous individuals, forcing him to stop and then attacking him, taking his baton and beating him in turn. This lasted for a second. The footage showed the crowd of demonstrators helping the police officer up to his feet. His helmet had been lost in the fight, his body armor was falling off. His face was red and his eyes wide open in shock. He was panting, trying to breathe and re-orient himself. The same crowd that at one point were being beaten by him and then a moment later were beating him were now helping him, holding on to his shoulder, guiding him to an open doorway, embracing him and chanting together, at one another, “Peace” and “Freedom”. The police officer looked grateful, almost as if he had been beaten to his senses. This footage is very important, in my opinion, to show that the use of violence from the side of the regime‟s authority may be matched in self-defense, but it is not the means that the Opposition, or at least a large section of it, is using. And certainly not to the brutal extent that the police, and especially the Basiji, are inflicting violence on the crowds gathered here. I am trying to restrain myself from valorizing or overdramatizing what is taking place here. Iranians, I myself being one (although I did not grow up here), are prone to exaggeration. For me, there is something in the historical wave of events that manifest themselves, go into hiding, and then reappear: indeed I have been accused of being Hegelian and, actually, I enjoy the accusation. Last week it was the Summer of Love 1969. This week, I dare to say, is Prague Spring Redux: Tehran Spring 2009 (notice that the time travel in my observations so far sticks exclusively to the „60s). “People are dying and this guy is just walking around with a knife,” moaned an old man on our street. I wonder if someone had been stabbed, we heard some people arguing loudly from the living room and ran to the balcony. Whoever was here had already passed through, the argument was in its aftermath and two men were moving a trash bin that had been tipped over and emptied onto the street back to its place. The old man was trailing behind, wailing about “those” guys (the Basiji) who are circling the city, carrying secret knives that they wield on anyone that sparks their anger in the slightest bit. About thirty minutes before, after a day of relative calm in our neighborhood, which last night was witness to cars honking and demonstrators clashing with the police until 4 AM, we heard some noise out on our street. We went onto the balcony and heard many people talking, the sound of honking cars had returned. As our balcony has an obstructed view, we decided to go up onto the roof to see what was happening on Valiasr Street. A few friends were visiting and we had just engaged in a 2-hour conversation about the situation here, what can be done, what should be done, criticism of the Opposition and testimony to all of our individual experiences in the past two days. When we reached the roof we quickly saw what was happening: a trash bin had been set on fire at the entrance to our street, right on Valiasr. A group of young men were taking the responsibility upon themselves to move a second trash bin from across our house further up towards Valiasr, to set that one on fire, too. In a split second we heard the roar of motorcycle engines and a group of people screaming “Go! Go! Run” at the head of the street. The crowd gathered near the burning trash bin quickly dispersed, running in our direction. The men who were moving the trash bin towards Valiasr stopped in their tracks and left the bin standing in the middle of the street. From our vantage point, we saw a group of men on motorcycles zoom by, abruptly turn onto our street and begin their pursuit of the men and women who were running away fast, aggressively announcing (I suppose to the men who had been moving the trash bin), “Don‟t even think about it!” The Basiji, or, level 3 of this terrible real-life video game: unrecognizable amongst the crowd, in everyday clothes, bearing a deep anger that stems from somewhere I do not want to know, believing fervently in this regime, many shell-shocked from their youth in the Iran-Iraq War, many common criminals who have gotten away with petty theft and family stabbings, all well trained to show no fear, to pursue with vengeance and to act with speed and sleuth, disappearing as fast as they appear. If they had orders to do it, they would kill. Instead, they prefer breaking arms, groping women, or stabbing someone in the side with the goal of minimal damage and maximal suffering. First and foremost, their role is to fear and intimidate. As they drove past our house chasing the crowd, they sternly yelled at everyone gathered on the street, spit coming out of their tense mouths, their temples bulging with blood and adrenalin: “GO HOME! GET OUT OF HERE! YOU BETTER GET OUT OF MY WAY OR I WILL KILL YOU!” A few screams from women too distant to see and a few shouts of defiance from men on our street. The Basiji turned around and parked their motorcycles in front of our house. An old woman told them to leave immediately, to which their response was a brutal shove, move out of our way lady and don’t think about saying a word. We quickly ducked our heads so that they wouldn‟t see us watching them. When I looked around me, I noticed many of the neighbors had gathered on their roofs and balconies, similarly crouched away from the Basiji‟s view. The men remounted their motorcycles and drove off. As they drove away, a few of them forcefully kicked the trash bin, still standing in the middle of the road, knocking it onto its side, trash spilling everywhere. A moment later, an older man came out of his car and began cursing the Basiji – “So they come and throw garbage all over our streets, is this enforcing the law?” A few young men came from behind a tree where they were hiding and swept the trash back into the bin, lifting it back up. They then started their self- appointed task of moving the bin towards Valiasr to set it on fire. Apparently the Basiji had not fully disappeared, I believe one was hiding around the corner observing what was happening, as I heard a yell and then, within a flash, a new team of motorcyclists returned. They drove past the men who had been moving the trash bin and who were now running away and one motorcyclist smacked one in the head with his open palm. Once again, they threatened to kill if everyone did not leave immediately and go home. They returned to the bin, got off their motorcycle, and pushed it towards the sewage drain on the side of the street, tipping it over into the dirty water. This time, they stood on our street, marching back and forth, clenching their fists and yelling threats to what appeared to be no one actually on the street – of course, the Basiji knew that people indoors could hear them, and of course they suspected that many of us were hiding on our roofs, peeping over the corner to take brief glances. I looked up again and then, all of a sudden, I heard a whoosh behind me and looked back to see R., who had ran up to the roof and who at this moment, standing far enough away from the edge to avoid being seen, shouted at the top of his lungs, “Death to Dictatorship!” As quickly as R. came, he ran back downstairs. Shit, I thought. I looked at N. and the few friends of ours who were visiting. We were huddled together and all of us hung our heads down, wondering what would happen now – why did R. do that? He may have endangered all of us! But at the same time, yes, of course, more people should have such courage to stand up to these neighborhood bullies, there is no lie, we all hate them, so why do we cower away? The Basiji were now revving their motorcycles, circling in front of our house, energizing. B. ran up with her camera and we quickly told her to be careful, to put the camera down. She crept up to the roof‟s edge and mounted the camera with a mini-tripod onto the side of the building, pressed record and crept away. Amazing: our very own surveillance camera! R. came back to the roof. I stood up and slowly walked away to the side, where I could look down onto the street without fear of being noticed. And then I saw it: it seemed that this particular Basiji group‟s leader had come to see what had happened. R. walked more towards the edge of the roof and then I noticed that the older bearded Basiji saw him. The man pulled out a walkie-talkie radio from one pocket and moved his jacket to the side to reveal a pistol. He said something into the radio and then took the pistol out and held it up, pointing the gun at R., who immediately ducked down and crawled quickly back to the stairwell. I motioned to everyone else to step back, whispering “he has his gun out!” We all shuffled to the back of the roof. I tiptoed, crouching low, to the front, the man was still there, he still had his gun in his hand. He told the other Basiji to leave. They followed orders tout de suite and quickly remounted their motorcycles and drove away. One of them stayed behind and took out a pen and a notepad and began writing down the different house numbers. I only saw this for a brief second, I don‟t know how many numbers he wrote or if he wrote down ours particularly, I could only overhear his conversation with the Basiji holding the gun: “Number twenty-six”. Not our house. A few minutes later, the one put his notepad up and the other put his gun back underneath his jacket. Then they walked away. A silence overtook our street. We all gathered back again, slowly, on the roof‟s edge and watched for anything else. After ten minutes and not a sign of activity, other than a few people walking to their homes, I decided to go back downstairs. B. and R. were downstairs and as I took out my computer, R. told me to write this message and to send it to as many people as I can: They have guns. They pointed it at us. They are not afraid to shoot. They took down house numbers. For now, we are safe. But we can’t be sure. There are four of us here: two filmmakers, an artist and a writer. We are not alone, but there are many of them and they are ready for violence. This is a coup d’etat and, if things get worse, there will be a crackdown. If that is the case, they may come back, and we may be arrested, questioned, put in jail, who knows. Let the world know our situation. 9:21 PM ALLAHU AKBAR. ALLAHU AKBAR. ALLAHU AKBAR. We are on the roof again. Everyone in this city is on the roof. It is the most apocalyptical moment I have ever experienced in my life. I can‟t see anyone, it is pitch black, except for the distant orange glow of Valiasr‟s lights. MARG BAR DIKTATOR. MARG BAR DIKTATOR. MARG BAR DIKTATOR. Echoing from everywhere, from every roof, to our right, to our left, front and back, people, voices of men and women, invisible to my eyes but a resounding wave of unbelievable power, are screaming at the top of their lungs: ALLAHU AKBAR. GOD IS GREAT. MARG BAR DIKTATOR: DEATH TO DICTATORSHIP. The city seems as if it were about to explode. The sky is rumbling with the call-and-response, spontaneously orchestrated by the people, growing in number as the minutes pass – more and more people coming outside, joining in, adding their passionate voices into the mix. Clouds are boiling above, it starts to rain, lightning flashes from behind the mountains to the North of the city. There is absolute silence in the city, except for the chanting of thousands gathered on the safety of their roofs. A low bass note of cars driving by on Valiasr Street. Shots are being fired, I don‟t know if the police are shooting, if it‟s a tear gas canister being set off somewhere, or if someone has personally decided to fire a shot to add to the drama of the moment. Now whistling starts. There are four of us up on the roof: three men and one woman. The three males begin chanting ALLAHU AKBAR – in response, female neighbors, somewhere close enough to hear us, complement our low tenor with their higher pitched response: ALLAHU AKBAR. And all of a sudden, the honking starts again, cars add their melody to this eerie crescendo resounding through Tehran‟s night sky. I am not a religious person. I never say “God is Great” and I never pray (except sometimes when I am flying and there is turbulence). Why am I joining in, chanting ALLAHU AKBAR as I sit and write, squatting in a corner on the roof where there is a cover from the rain so that my computer doesn‟t get wet? Why does it feel so natural to say just that: ALLAHU AKBAR? If I wanted to, I could have stuck with the more politically charged “Death to Dictatorship”. But there are very clear reasons why I, and I am not alone (of course, this is not to doubt that other people may have stronger religious sentiments than I do), choose to participate in this, with absolute confidence in saying it: ALLAHU AKBAR. It is an invocation. On the one hand, it is strategic for all of us to use this system‟s own language against it: by saying ALLAHU AKBAR, we show that we are not against the Islamic Republic. We show not only a unity with one another, but also with the same system that has stolen our vote, spat on our integrity, the same system that sends its police and plain-clothes militia men to the streets to beat and stab people in the name of “God”. They may chant ALLAHU AKBAR in their heads as they beat demonstrators, they may believe that their actions are holy and approved by God, they may view us as base, worthless, not-even-humans, yet, we say the same thing to their face, we confront them with the power of an invocation that maybe – speaking for myself – we don‟t believe in, but they do. The trembling of not-our- God, but their-God. If this system, as it legally perceives itself, is sanctioned by the will of some God, if this system‟s leader rules as regent of the Messiah who will return to take his rightful place, then this system must also confront the many-faces of a moody God, expressed by its people who stand now and invoke the same God whose name is uttered by the lips of murderers. On the other hand, the meaning of this expression is less important than the simplicity it evokes and how it brings a community together, in this case, a community that cannot even see one another, wrapped in the shadow of the night. This same expression was used in the 1979 Revolution – repeating it shows that it can be utilized again, even against the System who came to power through its use. Our parents said ALLAHU AKBAR thirty years ago, investing this system with power through their moment of unity. Once the dust settled, things quickly changed, divisions became clear, such invocations became less and less important, less unifying. Today, for the Children of the Revolution to repeat the words of their parents is, somehow, a confirmation of this nation‟s historical fate and an insistence that history cannot be so easily forgotten. 10:11 PM I ran out of cigarettes and went outside to buy a few more packs for the house. Assuming that by now the shop on Valiasr Street was closed, I walked up the hill in the other direction to the late night store. When I stepped onto the street, I saw that the trash bin directly in front of our house had been set on fire. The wind was spreading the ashes into the air. I couldn‟t keep my eyes open as I walked past. As I walked up the hill, I saw all our neighbors gathered with their families on the street, chanting ALLAHU AKBAR and throwing firecrackers. There is a construction site a few doors down from us and as I walked by, I saw the Afghani workers gathered outside, their arms closed, observing the well-to-do group of women across from them, chatting amongst themselves. There is a metal trash can next to the construction site. I quickly walked by the workers and the trash can and then, all of a sudden, I yelped out of fear as a figure next to me appeared, almost as if from nowhere, moaning ALLAHU AKBAR. I looked and notice that one of the Afghani workers had been hiding in the trash can, covering it with a piece of cardboard, waiting for someone like me to walk past, only to jump up in surprise, waving his arms in the air and tremulously chanting ALLAHU AKBAR. He laughed at my shock and I began to laugh, too. A few small children screamed in glee, giggling at the man who had been hiding in the trash can. The entire time on my walk up the hill to the store, I received suspicious glances from the people I walked past. It was most likely due to the fact that I was dressed in all black and that I have a well-trimmed beard. Maybe the black wasn‟t so important, but beards in Iran aren‟t “young and trendy”, they are the sign of Islamic fundamentalism and therefore, I can easily be mistaken for a Basiji and/or Ahmadinejad supporter. To all those disapproving glances, I simply returned a smile and a flash of a victory-sign, immediately easing the tension. 11:27 PM I received a phone call earlier this afternoon while I was watching the live broadcast of Ahmadinejad‟s acceptance speech/supporter‟s rally at Tehran‟s main square from London-based curator. I turned the television set‟s volume down as the cheering and chanting of the crowd, paired with the invocation of the Prophet Mohammad‟s daughter Fatima Zahra, whose saint day was today, was driving me crazy. I watched in disbelief how what looked to be thousands upon thousands of supporters gathered at Valiasr Square, filling every nook and cranny available, waving Iranian flags and religious banners, cheering as Ahmadinejad took stage, led prayer, and began denouncing the “enemies of the nation”, the foreign “spies” who had infiltrated the country and where trying to interfere with our “democracy”, the “dirty, morally corrupt” demonstrators of the Opposition, declaring that Iranians have rightfully chosen their divinely sanctioned future and that Iran will be strong, cannot be harmed, will never be touched nor even dare to be touched by any of its antagonists under his leadership. It was too much for me to know that most likely, somewhere else in the city, any attempt on demonstrators part to gather was being brutally repressed, while thousands had most likely been shuttled into Tehran from remote villages, paid, housed and fed by Ahmadinejad‟s various charities to come and display their presence, their support. I picked up the phone and the curator asked me what the situation is like here and whether it would be safe for him to continue on his planned trip and come on Thursday. I told him that regarding safety, if his trip were scheduled for today then it probably wouldn‟t be such a good idea, but by Thursday everything should be fine, although I made clear that I can in no way predict where things will go in one hour let alone in so many days. I reminded him that most likely no artists would be interested in meeting to discuss art, that there were many more important issues on the table these days and that trying to find time for appointments, studio and gallery visits would probably be next to impossible. However, I urged him to really consider coming, to not be afraid, and to take the opportunity to see this moment of history and try and engage with it through conversations as much as he can. In his heavy German accent he responded: “Oh no, if it is dangerous today than I cannot come on Thursday, I must postpone my trip, although I do not know when I can make it again.” He handed the phone over to a colleague of his that I had been in touch with. I founded the whole situation so very amusing, especially with the footage of Ahmadinejad‟s rally playing in the background. Once again, self-declared, politically-minded curators shying away from what is truly possible, from what does not exist in representation. I suppose it is exhilarating to think about it, to conduct an interview after the event, but for so many, as soon as it becomes physical, real, as soon as it breaks out onto the streets or confronts them with bodies, then it is too much. Better wait and attempt to frame it in the exhibition context! I hope he comes; there is nothing to be afraid of. Life, although strange and exciting, is somehow carrying on here as normal. We just heard from Voice of America that the police and military forces have raided Tehran University and that there has been a major clash there. Legally, the government does not have permission to enter university grounds. Not even during the one year of protests and demonstrations during the 1979 Revolution, many of which took place at universities across the country, did the Shah‟s forces attack students on university property itself. “The last time such an offense occurred was 44 years ago”, P. told me. The police have begun shooting now, switching from rubber bullets to real ones. Apparently 11 people were killed yesterday, but it is not clear whether this is true or a rumor, or even if it is true, if they were killed due to gunshot wounds. But tonight, it is confirmed: police are shooting. This means that by tomorrow, there will be a steadily rising death toll to consider. R. just called the house. B.‟s mouth is wide open. I‟m dying to know what he is saying. Now B. shares the news with us: Ayatollah Saanei, a very important, Reformist-leaning cleric, has arrived in Tehran from the city of Qom and is now staying at Khomeini‟s former house, asking upon all the highest members of the Islamic clergy, and especially the Council of Experts, to convene there. 1:53 AM After R.‟s phone call, we had a late midnight dinner of khoresht-e- karafs (lamb and celery stew with rice). We then slowly moved into the living room for our, what has now become standard, television/internet news briefing, seeing how the days events have been recapped. B. downloaded a selection of articles from major international newspapers and passed her computer around while BBC Farsi‟s “Sedaye Shoma” (Your Voice) program aired, broadcasting sent-in footage from today‟s riots, emails written describing the situation here, and phone calls from viewers from Iran and abroad expressing their opinion about the post-election events. Most of the viewers sympathized with the Opposition movement and the program‟s moderator had to stress that in no way does BBC Farsi take a position either with or against the election results. One Ahmadinejad supporter, however, called in, a man living in London. Unlike the rest of the individuals who wrote emails, telephoned, and sent video clips, all of whom spoke calmly and clearly with well- deliberated language, open to the program moderator‟s questions and Devil‟s advocate- style provocations, this particular man immediately blared off in a violent and aggressive tone. I could barely understand him, he was speaking so furiously and so fast, but from what I pieced together he was (1) denouncing the BBC as a foreign propaganda agent of the CIA and MI6, (2) giving proof to this by providing the example of Zahra Rahnavard‟s phone call yesterday to BBC Farsi, (3) accusing all the demonstrators of being “spoiled rich kids” with no “aim or goal”, and (4) declaring that if things progressed as they were, the entire country would fall apart. The program‟s moderator attempted successively to intervene and re-direct this man‟s focus on an important point: given the lack of media outlets for the Iranian Opposition, what other recourse does someone like Zahra Rahnavard have to express her position than to utilize a service such as BBC Farsi? Since the Iranian government is systematically censoring any form of opposition to the election results, does the freedom to express one‟s opinion in a public context such as the BBC immediately implicate the international media as agents provocateurs? The man didn‟t address these questions, blaring away, repeating how all Opposition supporters are rich and spoiled (notwithstanding the fact that the man was supposedly calling from London, a city not so easy to live in let alone immigrate to from a third world nation when one isn‟t rich or at least a benefactor of opportunity). Thankfully, he was cut off and the program moved on to the next caller. I started sifting through B.‟s downloaded articles and was quite impressed by the New York Times‟ NewsBlog, the Lede, which has been updated almost half- hourly with a collection of quotes, comments and conversation threads from different newspapers, online news sources such as Facebook and TehranBureau.com and blogs. A few things stuck out, especially amidst all the testimonies from individuals in Iran, news that for me was now all too familiar through my experiences the past two days. One was about the employees from the Interior Ministry who resigned from their jobs in protest of the ministry‟s handling of the votes: “One employee of the Interior Ministry, which carried out the vote count, said the government had been preparing its fraud for weeks, purging anyone of doubtful loyalty and importing pliable staff members from around the country. „They didn‟t rig the vote,‟ claimed the man, who showed his ministry identification card but pleaded not to be named. „They didn‟t even look at the vote. They just wrote the name and put in the number in front of it.‟” (NY Times, “Memo from Tehran – Reverberations as Door Slams on Hope of Change”, Bill Keller, Published June 13, 2009) The second was from the official Islamic Republic News Agency, a memo announcing that Ahmadinejad has received three congratulations on his election to a second term so far: “Tehran, June 13 IRNA – Following President Mahmoud Ahmadinejad‟s landslide victory in the 10th Presidential Elections, Syrian, Egyptian and Palestinian leaders cabled messages of congratulations Saturday on his re-election. Syrian President Bashar al-Assad, Leader of the Egyptian Ikhwan al- Muslimin Mohammmad Mehdi Akef, Palestinian Islamic Resistance Movement (Hamas), and Palestinian Islamic Jihad Movement in separate messages congratulated President Ahmadinejad on his victory. They wished him success and prosperity.” The Lede itself cynically comments, how ironic that the three (rather, four) congratulatory remarks come from one dictatorial state (ie. Syria) and three illegal, internationally-recognized terrorist organizations! Not surprising though, given Iran‟s massive financial aid programs under Ahmadinejad in the past four years to the Syrian government, Hizbollah in Lebanon (note the lack of comment so far in the wake of this past week‟s Lebanese elections) and the Palestinian Resistance. What about Hugo Chavez? When is he coming to town? While I was reading these articles, news footage showed the crowds gathered to demonstrate at Iranian Embassies abroad: Berlin, London, Paris, Toronto, Dubai. Meanwhile, reports were streaming in that the same street battling that was occurring in Tehran was also taking place, with the same severity, in cities around the country: Shiraz, Isfahan (a traditionally conservative city), Mashhad (Iran‟s most important pilgrimage capital, also traditionally conservative, and the second largest city population-wise after Tehran) and Tabriz (Moussavi‟s hometown). In the popular uprisings under Khatami or Rafsanjani (which were significantly different from this time around, consisting mainly of students), never had the violence spread so fast and with such vigor to other major cities. If anything there were small turnouts that quickly dispersed, not to show up again. Once again, another element bearing too much similarity to 1979 – a nationwide series of demonstrations and clashes, a leveling of social and economic contradictions, unification under religious rhetoric and the protest of clerics through self- enclosure at home and the call for an assembly of review. This is becoming all too quickly uncanny. R. said that he had been out earlier this evening at Chahar-Ra Parkway, a major intersection of Valiasr with the Chamran and Hemmat Highways further up north. There, he saw a major crowd of protestors gathering, this time however completely peacefully. They held their hands up in the air and melodiously chanted “Allahu Akbar”, walking towards the intersection with the police at their side. They started a round of prayers, acting in a cool and collected manner, resisting any display of force and not looking or directing their actions at the police. R. said how beautiful it was, in the eerie glow of the humongous LCD screen hanging from the highway overpass at Chahar-Ra Parkway, flashing advertisements for video cameras, to see a crowd choosing to act in a non-violent, pro-active way, as they had done a few days before during the pre-election celebrations. The police attempted to provoke them, even hitting a few on the sides, but those hit simply got back up and walked away. There was no show of resistance. R. went on to say how at a certain point, even some police officers began chanting “Allahu Akbar”, joining the ranks of the demonstrators. After all, the police are just “doing their job”, and like many of us when we are at work, it doesn‟t mean one believes in everything one “has” to do. This is the key, a sign of weakness in the whole structure of militarized authority: the subjectivities involved in the conflict. If these subjectivities can be activated, directly addressed, then the tides can change, sides are crossed, a wave of contradictions may reveal the formation of unexpected communities. Amongst the crowd gathered, in between their invocations, R. reported that he saw people whispering in each others‟ ears, spreading news, giving advice on how to behave, supporting one another, and, most importantly, telling each other where to be and at what time tomorrow. Moussavi‟s campaign has called upon all the Opposition supporters to gather tomorrow in Tehran at 4 PM at Enghelab Square (Revolution Square, in the City Center near to the University). From there, the demonstrators are to form a peaceful protest, they are instructed to pray and to maintain calm, even under the face of fire, and to march slowly towards Azadi Square (Freedom Square, the next main square after Enghelab, many kilometers down the road, where the Azadi Tower, a symbol of Tehran, stands). Further plans include marching past Azadi and down south, towards Imam Khomeini‟s sanctuary outside of the city, near the airport. Moussavi‟s wife, Zahra Rahnavard, announced that they will attempt to secure permissions for the demonstration. This is, however, quite implausible, and most likely the demonstration will face serious challenges from not only the police, who may be violent, but the Basiji, who are hands-down deadly and who can speed through the crowd and discreetly wreck havoc, provoking the peace with their anger. If the demonstration turns violent, it is another score for the coup d‟etat, one that they can use to show that all those gathered are simply rabble- rousers, good-for-nothings, spies, etc. It is very important to stay peaceful, to keep focused. Demonstrations are scheduled in other major Iranian cities as well, also at 4 PM, an attempt to nationally unite the Opposition and its supporters in the hope that something can come out of this, that this time it won‟t be ignored. Monica Narula Raqs Media Collective Sarai-CSDS www.raqsmediacollective.net www.sarai.net From kmvenuannur at gmail.com Fri Jun 19 17:28:24 2009 From: kmvenuannur at gmail.com (Venugopalan K M) Date: Fri, 19 Jun 2009 17:28:24 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Fwd: Class v. Culture Wars in Iranian - by Juan Cole (forwarded) Message-ID: <1f9180970906190458r6a3d2963kbe85511efa3e835a@mail.gmail.com> http://www.crisesmagazine.org/index.php/June-18-to-June-25-2009/class-v-culture-wars-in-iranian.html Class v. Culture Wars in Iranian [image: PDF] [image: Print] [image: E-mail] Written by Juan Cole [image: in the past little over a decade, Iran's voters had become especially interested in expanding personal liberties, in expanding women's rights, and in a wider field of legitimate expression for culture] in the past little over a decade, Iran's voters had become especially interested in expanding personal liberties, in expanding women's rights, and in a wider field of legitimate expression for culture Some comentators have suggested that the reason Western reporters were shocked when Ahmadinejad won was that they are based in opulent North Tehran, whereas the farmers and workers of Iran, the majority, are enthusiastic for Ahmadinejad. That is, we fell victim once again to upper middle class reporting and expectations in a working class country of the global south. While such dynamics may have existed, this analysis is flawed in the case of Iran because it pays too much attention to class and material factors and not enough to Iranian culture wars. We have already seen, in 1997 and 2001, that Iranian women and youth swung behind an obscure former minister of culture named Mohammad Khatami and his 2nd of Khordad movement, capturing not only the presidency but also, in 2000, parliament. Khatami received 70 percent of the vote in 1997. He then got 78% of the vote in 2001, despite a crowded field. In 2000, his reform movement captured 65% of the seats in parliament. He is a nice man, but you couldn't exactly categorize him as a union man or a special hit with farmers. The evidence is that in the past little over a decade, Iran's voters had become especially interested in expanding personal liberties, in expanding women's rights, and in a wider field of legitimate expression for culture (not just high culture but even just things like Iranian rock music). The extreme puritanism of the hardliners grated on people. The problem for the reformers of the late 1990s and early 2000s was that they did not actually control much, despite holding elected office. Important government policy and regulation was in the hands of the unelected, clerical side of the government. The hard line clerics just shut down reformist newspapers, struck down reformist legislation, and blocked social and economic reform. The Bush administration was determined to hang Khatami out to dry, ensuring that the reformers could never bring home any tangible success in foreign policy or foreign investment [image: Quotation]The Bush administration was determined to hang Khatami out to dry, ensuring that the reformers could never bring home any tangible success in foreign policy or foreign investment[image: Quotation] . Thus, in the 2004 parliamentary elections, literally thousands of reformers were simply struck off the ballot and not allowed to run. This application of a hard line litmus test in deciding who could run for office produced a hard line parliament, naturally enough. But in 2000, it was clear that the hard liners only had about 20% of the electorate on their side. By 2005, the hard liners had rolled back all the reforms and the reform camp was sullen and defeated. They did not come out in large numbers for the reformist candidate, Karoubi, who only got 17 percent of the vote. They nevertheless were able to force a run-off between hard line populist Mahmoud Ahmadinejad and former president Akbar Hashemi Rafsanjani, a pragmatic conservative billionaire. Ahmadinejad won. But Ahmadinejad's 2005 victory was made possible by the widespread boycott of the vote or just disillusionment in the reformist camp, meaning that fewer youth and women bothered to come out. So to believe that the 20% hard line support of 2001 has become 63% in 2009, we would have to posit that Iran is less urban, less literate and less interested in cultural issues today than 8 years ago. We would have to posit that the reformist camp once again boycotted the election and stayed home in droves. No, this is not a north Tehran/ south Tehran issue. Khatami won by big margins despite being favored by north Tehran. So observers who want to lay a guilt trip on us about falling for Mousavi's smooth upper middle class schtick are simply ignoring the last 12 years of Iranian history. It was about culture wars, not class. It is simply not true that the typical Iranian voter votes conservative and religious when he or she gets the chance. In fact, Mousavi is substantially more conservative than the typical winning politician in 2000. Given the enormous turnout of some 80 percent, and given the growth of Iran's urban sector, the spread of literacy, and the obvious yearning for ways around the puritanism of the hard liners, Mousavi should have won in the ongoing culture war. And just because Ahmadinejad poses as a champion of the little people does not mean that his policies are actually good for workers or farmers or for working class women (they are not, and many people in that social class know that they are not). So let that be an end to the guilt trip. The Second of Khordad Movement was a winning coalition for the better part of a decade. Its supporters are 8 years older than the last time they won, but it was a young movement. Did they all do a 180 and defect from Khatami to Ahmadinejad? Unlikely. The Iranian women who voted in droves for Khatami haven't gone anywhere, and they did not very likely much care for Ahmadinejad's stances on women's issues: 'In a BBC News interview, Mahbube Abbasqolizade, a member of the Iranian Women’s Centre NGO, said, “Mr. Ahmadinejad’s policies are that women should return to their homes and that their priority should be the family.” * Ahmadinejad changed the name of the government organization the “Centre for Women’s Participation” to the “Centre for Women and Family Affairs”. * Ahmadinejad proposed a new law that would reintroduce a man’s right to divorce his wife without informing her. In addition, men would no longer be required to pay alimony. In response, women’s groups have initiated the Million Signatures campaign against these measures. * Ahmadinejad’s administration opposes the ratification of the UN protocol called CEDAW, the Convention on the Elimination of All Forms of Discrimination Against Women. This doctrine is essentially an international women’s Bill of Rights. * Ahmadinejad implemented the Social Safety program, which monitors women’s clothing, requires the permission from a father or husband for a woman to attend school, and applies quotas limiting the number of women allowed to attend universities.' Mir Hosain Mousavi was a plausible candidate for the reformists. They were electing people like him with 70 and 80 percent margins just a few years ago. We have not been had by the business families of north Tehran. We've much more likely been had by a hard line constituency of at most 20% of the country, who claim to be the only true heirs of the Iranian revolution, and who control which ballots see the light of day. ------------------------------ *Juan Cole **is President of the Global Americana Institute* From pawan.durani at gmail.com Fri Jun 19 18:35:53 2009 From: pawan.durani at gmail.com (Pawan Durani) Date: Fri, 19 Jun 2009 18:35:53 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] SRK in trouble Message-ID: <6b79f1a70906190605u1071028epa2f057051d75948d@mail.gmail.com> Question: According to you, who is the most impressive figure in history? Answer: There are lots of them, some negative ones like Hitler, then Napoleon,Winston Churchill and if I can call it history, then Prophet Mohammed and from recent time — Nelson Mandela. And there are the nice ones like Gandhiji and Mother Teresa. Chennai, 19 June (Asiantribune.com): Mumbai Police have registered an First Information Report (FIR )against Bollywood superstar Shah Rukh Khan on the basis of a complaint that he had made derogatory comments against Prophet Mohammed in a magazine interview. Shah Rukh Khan http://www.indianexpress.com/news/shah-rukhs-effigy-beaten-up-with-chappals/478813/ From rahul_capri at yahoo.com Fri Jun 19 18:42:41 2009 From: rahul_capri at yahoo.com (Rahul Asthana) Date: Fri, 19 Jun 2009 06:12:41 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Reader-list] Shahidul Alam detained by Indian Border Security Force Message-ID: <762516.1112.qm@web53603.mail.re2.yahoo.com> Dear Sonia, Do you agree with this - "I think the detention of any human being on the grounds that he is crossing an artificial, ephemeral, man-made border is an affront to our common humanity." Dear Shuddha, Do you think that homes should be locked? Do you think that people should be allowed unrestricted entry to other peoples homes at all times? You have a very interesting idea.Lets explore the polemics around it. Thanks Rahul --- On Fri, 6/19/09, S. Jabbar wrote: > From: S. Jabbar > Subject: Re: [Reader-list] Shahidul Alam detained by Indian Border Security Force > To: "A.K. Malik" , "Shuddhabrata Sengupta" > Cc: "Sarai" > Date: Friday, June 19, 2009, 8:57 AM > Exactly what the English think about > the Poles, the Germans about the Turks, > the Americans about the Mexicans, and the Australians, > Americans, French, > Germans, Italians, Spaniards, Canadians, Poles, Mexicans, > and Turks think > about Indians. > > > > From: "A.K. Malik" > > Date: Thu, 18 Jun 2009 18:13:30 -0700 (PDT) > > To: Shuddhabrata Sengupta > > Cc: Sarai List > > Subject: Re: [Reader-list] Shahidul Alam detained by > Indian Border Security > > Force > > > > > Hi, >     Views are very noble, interesting and > appreciable from humane point > > of view. But when you lose your identity,home, job > because someone crosses > > over illegally to your country, things become > different. Global brotherhood is > > easy to talk about, but difficult to implement > especially in the current > > environs.Imagine most Bangladeshis, Africans coming > over freely to our country > > to make our life more pleasant by doing menial jobs > and terrorist walking over > > freely from Pakistan...!!!!!!! > Regards, > > (A.K.MALIK) > > > --- On Fri, 6/19/09, > > Shuddhabrata Sengupta > wrote: > > > From: Shuddhabrata > > Sengupta > > Subject: Re: [Reader-list] Shahidul Alam > > detained by Indian Border Security Force > > To: "sarai list" > > > > Date: Friday, June 19, 2009, 3:11 AM > > Dear All, > > > > > > I think the detention of any human being on the > grounds > > that he is  > > > > crossing an artificial, ephemeral, man-made border is > an > > affront to  > > our > > common humanity. Borders come and go, and people will > > move across  > > them, > > and have always moved across them, regardless of the > > controls  > > that seek > > to restrict movement. Otherwise we would all > > be  > > uncivilised, uncouth, > > provincial barbarians. > > > >   Shahidul Alam happens to be a very respected > > > > photographer, but his  > > detention by an Indian border patrol would have been > > just > > as horrible  > > if he were an honest, hard working peasant, > > agricultural > > worker,  > > factory worker, cook, student, plumber or > > sex-worker from > > Bangladesh  > > who happened to have got caught while being > > on the 'wrong' > > side of  > > the insane labyrinth that is called the > > India-Bangladesh > > border . > > > > The city of Delhi, where I live, is sustained > > by the hard > > labour of  > > many Bangladeshis who work as domestic help, as > > informal > > factory  > > workers, as people in the formal as well as informal > > > > hospitality  > > industry, as white collar workers. Not all of them are > in > > > > Delhi  > > 'Legally' but the city would be poorer without them, > as > > would > > many  > > cities all over the world. Imagine Rome, London, New > York, > > > > Melbourne,  > > Warsaw or New Delhi without the cheerful, ironic, > gentle > > > > Bangladeshi  > > who cleans homes, sells flowers, works as a doctor, > drives > > a > > taxi,  > > makes love, cooks meals, writes poems, builds houses, > turns > > > > lathes  > > and sings songs.  The free movement of people is a > > precondition > > of a  > > free world, and the free movement of Bangladeshi > people, > > many of  > > > > whom, who with their immense energy, good humour and > gentle > > irony  > > > > sustain a more humane fabric of everyday life is what > makes > > life  > > worth > > living in many parts of the world. They show you the > > way in  > > strange > > cities. They sing you a snatch of song. Sometimes > > they give  > > you an > > unasked for discount on the bill at the end of a big > > meal when  > > you are > > hungry. > > > > All those who oppose the free movement of people, > whether > > the > > people  > > are identified, or choose to identify themselves as > > > > Bangladeshis,  > > Poles, Croats, Palestinians, Israelis, Pakistanis, > > Indians, > > Iraqis,  > > Iranians, Afghans, Somalis or Congolese are inhuman, > > > > inhospitable and  > > enemies of our shared humanity. > > > > On another note,  I > > have said this before, but I will > > say it again. I  > > find the detention of > > Pragya Bharti under preventive > > detention laws  > > as reprehensible as that > > of Binayak Sen or those (many > > young people)  > > who are accused of being > > SIMI or Indian Mujahideen > > frontmen, or of  > > being Maoists, or opposed to > > circumstances of that prevail > > Kashmir or  > > in the North Eastern states of > > India. > > > > Preventive detention, under any circumstances, is an > insult > > to  > > > > liberty and should be opposed, no matter who is being > > detained,  > > > > whether it is Varun Gandhi, Binayak Sen, Pragya Bharti > or > > anyone else. > > > > > > regards > > > > Shuddha > > > > > > > > > > On 17-Jun-09, at 12:35 PM, Rajendra Bhat > > Uppinangadi > > wrote: > > > > > Dear All, one issue that is concerning me is, > are > > men > > and women in  > > > media > > > above laws.? If they are doing any project, > > they can > > violate laws  > > > of the > > > land.? Is media responsible to > > citizens of the nation > > in which they  > > > are > > > operating.? Or they are > > responsible only to media > > barons and the share > > > holders of the media > > corporate to share the "profits" > > of such  > > > projects.? As > > > the humans > > work in different walks of life, do they > > become above  > > > laws if > > > they > > are say, politicians, judicial appointees and > > executives, or  > > > are > > they > > > appointed to serve the citizens in best possible > > interests of the  > > > > > citizens.? > > > > > >   Now, as to current matter ubder > > discussion, it is > > to be noted  > > > that if the > > > border force do their duties sincerely, no > > under age > > married girls  > > > can come > > > in to India and work as dance bar > > girls, sex workers > > in as far as  > > > south > > > India, particularly in > > Chennai, Bangalore, and > > Hyderabad. It is  > > > true that > > > they have > > practically no opportunities to earn a > > living in their  > > > bangaldesh, > > > > > but the sad issue is many of these married girls are > > in southern  > > > > > India,, > > > recently Bangalore police with Chennai counter > parts > > ripped > > open  > > > the network > > > of this illegal trade of human traffick and sex > > trade. > > Local news  > > > network > > > channel 9 and Udaya TV and also Suvarna > > tv covered the > > issue > > > comprehensively. Even with recession and lesser > > > > salaries, the  > > > stressed minds > > > are seeking extra carnal pleasures ? > > > > > > > > As to this man of media, why he has not taken > > necessary  > > > > > authorisation for > > > the project work.? Is he under cover operative > for any > > > > group.? If Dr. > > > Binayak Sen can be held captive in detention for > the > > good > > work he  > > > has had on > > > record, is not above laws, which ofcourse is > > obnxious, > > are men in  > > > media > > > above laws.? > > > > > >   Amusingly, the > > fate of Prajna Thakur > > and 12 others who are under  > > > detention > > > for > > months now without any shred of proof has no > > defenders of human  > > > > > rights > > > talking or them.! None is concerned about these > > detentions of > > Prajna > > > Thakur.? Perceptions of a few seem to be taking > over > > the rights > > and  > > > wrongs > > > in society, when it comes to human rights of the > > > > humans.? > > > > > >   Regards, > > > > > >    Rajen. > > > > > > On Wed, Jun 17, 2009 at > > 11:16 AM, anupam > > chakravartty  > > > wrote: > > > > > >> > > Photographer Shahidul Alam spends 6hrs in BSF > > custody: > > >> > > >> > > http://bdnews24.com/details.php?id=87461&cid=2 > > >> > > >> > > >> > > http://www.indianexpress.com/news/Bangladeshi-photographer-held-- > > > > >> > > crossing--Indo-Bangla-border/477648 > > >> > > >> Two versions of the same story. > > However, if as per > > the BSF  > > >> officials are > > >> claiming that Alam > > crossed over in the Dhubri > > sector, which is  > > >> also my home > > >> > > district, the Brahmaputra river is itself the > > border. during the  > > >> > > floods > > >> immigrant bangladeshis in connivance of BSF > and > > BDR enter India > > on  > > >> boats > > >> carrying pineapples from across the border. > the no > > > > man's land  > > >> mentioned in > > >> both of the reports is actually river > > > > brahmaputra. > > >> > > >> thanks anupam > > >> > > >> > > >> On 6/17/09, Santhosh Kumar > > > > wrote: > > >>> > > >>> it is hard to believe that > > you will > > believe.... > > >>> > > >>> On Wed, Jun 17, 2009 at 9:53 AM, Pawan > > > > Durani  > > >>> > >>>> wrote: > > >>> > > >>>> Hard to > > believe ..... > > >>>> > > >>>> On Tue, Jun 16, 2009 at 7:55 PM, > Shun-Ling > > Chen  > > > > >>>> > >>>>> wrote: > > >>>> > > >>>>> > > >>> > > http://unheardvoice.net/blog/2009/06/16/shahidul-alam-detained-by- > > > > >>> > > indian > > >>>>> -border-security-force/ > > >>>>> > > >>>>> Dr Shahidul Alam, > > well-known > > photographer, and founder Drik, was > > >>>>> detained by Indian > > Border Security > > Forces while working on the > > >>>>> Bangladesh side of the > > border on his > > Brahmaputra project. He  > > >>>>> called > > >> me > > >>>>> at > > 18:21 pm to tell me that the guards > > had asked him to come over, > > >> and > > > > >>>>> then detained him at Sahapara 21 > IPP, > > across the border from  > > >>>>> > > Rowmari. > > >>>>> His two colleagues are on the > > Bangladeshi side of the > > border, and > > >> can't > > >>>>> get to him. > > >>>>> > > >>>>> Please contact Home > > and Foreign > > Ministry officials requesting that > > >> they > > >>>>> do all > > possible to get him released > > immediately. It is worth > > >> mentioning > > > > >>>>> that the Indian BSF have detained > and > > killed many innocent > > >> > > Bangladeshis > > >>>>> in recent years, in the border > areas. > > >>>>> > > >>>>> > > http://www.mediahelpingmedia.org/content/view/387/1/ > > >>>>> News - South > > Asia > > >>>>> By David Brewer > > >>>>> Tuesday, 16 June 2009 > > >>>>> > > >>>>> > > Reports from Bangladesh say that > > Shahidul Alam, the photo  > > >>>>> > > journalist, > > >>>>> blogger and founder of the Drik > > picture network has > > been  > > >>>>> detained by > > >>>>> Indian border security forces > while > > > > working on the Bangladesh  > > >>>>> side of > > >>>>> the border. > > >>>>> > > > > >>>>> In a message to this site from > Dhaka, > > Alam's partner says he was > > >>> > > working > > >>>>> on a multimedia project about > the > > Brahmaputra with two > > colleagues > > >> when > > >>>>> border guards took him awa > > >>>>> > > >>>>> There > > are now fears for Alam's safety > > and supporters are  > > >>>>> calling on > > >> > > the > > >>>>> international community to push > for > > his release. > > >>>>> > > >>>>> > > The last message from Shahidul Alam > > came through at !8:21 on  > > >>>>> > > Tuesday > > >> 16 > > >>>>> June when he called home to say > that > > border security > > guards had  > > >>>>> asked > > >>>>> him to come over to the Indian > side of > > > > the border where they  > > >>>>> detained > > >>>>> him at Sahapara 21 IPP, > > across the > > border from Rowmari. > > >>>>> > > >>>>> His two colleagues are on > > the > > Bangladeshi side of the border, and > > >> can't > > >>>>> get to him. > > > > >>>>> > > >>>>> At the time Alam was working on > the > > Bangladesh end of the > > river > > >>>>> Brahmaputra project. He had > travelled > > to Kurigram with two > > Drik > > >>>>> colleagues to take photos, video > and > > stills. > > >>>>> > > >>>>> > > Contact has been made with a number of > > local and international  > > >>>>> > > media > > >>>>> organisations and government > > officials, including the Indian > > High > > >>>>> Commission. > > >>>>> > > _________________________________________ > > > > >>>>> reader-list: an open discussion > list > > on media and the city. > > >>>>> > > Critiques & Collaborations > > >>>>> To subscribe: send an email to > > reader-list-request at sarai.net > > with > > >>>>> subscribe in the subject > > header. > > >>>>> To unsubscribe: > > https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader- > > >>>>> list > > >>>>> List > > archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> > > >>>> > > _________________________________________ > > >>>> reader-list: an open > > discussion list on > > media and the city. > > >>>> Critiques & Collaborations > > > > >>>> To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net > > with > > > > >>>> subscribe in the subject header. > > >>>> To unsubscribe: > > https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > > >>>> List archive: > > <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> > > >>>> > > >>> > > _________________________________________ > > >>> reader-list: an open > > discussion list on media > > and the city. > > >>> Critiques & Collaborations > > > > >>> To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net > > with > > >>> > > subscribe in the subject header. > > >>> To unsubscribe: > > https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > > >>> List archive: > > <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> > > >> > > _________________________________________ > > >> reader-list: an open discussion > > list on media and > > the city. > > >> Critiques & Collaborations > > >> To > > subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net > > with > > >> > > subscribe in the subject header. > > >> To unsubscribe: > > https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > > >> List archive: > > <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> > > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > -- > > > > > Rajen. > > > _________________________________________ > > > reader-list: an > > open discussion list on media and the > > city. > > > Critiques & Collaborations > > > > > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net > > with  > > > > > subscribe in the subject header. > > > To unsubscribe: > > https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > > > List archive: > > <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> > > > > > > > > > > > > _________________________________________ > > reader-list: an open discussion > > list on media and the > > city. > > Critiques & Collaborations > > To subscribe: > > send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net > > with subscribe in the subject > > header. > > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > > > > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> > > > > > > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion > > list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an > > email to reader-list-request at sarai.net > with subscribe in the subject > > header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > > > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> > > > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the > city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net > with subscribe in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> From rakesh.rnbdj at gmail.com Fri Jun 19 20:31:24 2009 From: rakesh.rnbdj at gmail.com (Rakesh Iyer) Date: Fri, 19 Jun 2009 20:31:24 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] SRK in trouble In-Reply-To: <6b79f1a70906190605u1071028epa2f057051d75948d@mail.gmail.com> References: <6b79f1a70906190605u1071028epa2f057051d75948d@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: Dear all First of all, I think this effigy burning is too early a step to be taken. All this effigy burning should not lead to any kind of violence. As someone who has lived in Bhopal for 6 years and whose home is still in Bhopal (I spend most of my time at Chennai for studies), I have seen, read and heard about many effigy burnings. However, since SRK says that he has been misquoted or the line has been changed, I think we need to look at the case before doing such things. It is fine if people say that if SRK has said so, then it's wrong and something they protest against. But when nothing has been proved, effigy burning is not the right thing. The other problem is that of Prophet Muhammad. I think it's not just the Prophet himself. If somebody says something against Ambedkar, or Lohia or somebody else, there is this effigy burning and violence. Similarly, when someone says something about Lord Ram or Krishna, then our Thackerays and the RSS are there to unleash goons and create mayhem. This is not required. Being a democracy, people are free to express their views. Therefore, even if SRK feels that Prophet is a negative character, he is entitled to his views. Of course, so are those who burn effigies, except that at least there should be a proof that he did make such a sentence. And since he says he has been misquoted, and the case will now be in court, let the court decide the matter. And let us not allow violence to spill on the streets. Anyways, our gods and prophets across the world have done enough deeds for which they can easily be criticized. Lord Ram, just to be the ruler among humans, banished Sita in the name of purity from the kingdom. Lord Krishna enjoyed sex with Radha in the name of love, that too before marriage; but when anybody gives a rose or greeting card to somebody else on Valentine's Day, our Sangh Parivar goes gaga in the name of Indian culture. And the Prophet being talked about also had a marriage with a nine-year old girl, that too when he was around 52. (Born in 570 AD and married in 622 AD, the year of hijra) Take that for child marriage! And for Jesus Christ, while he gave a noble message, some of his followers have taken upon the idea of harvesting souls of Christ. I have no issues with anybody not agreeing to my views mentioned here. They are free to criticize me, denounce me and even burn my effigies (that is if they have my photos to begin with). But please, do realize that we are not given the right to violence. And don't indulge in violence for petty purposes like to serve politicians. And this is why I particularly feel putting a case like this is wrong. I have no issues with people organizing protests on this, but I don't feel a case is required. Neither are fatwas required. All those unnecessarily indulging in such fatwas and claims, be it the Ashok Singhals or the Yakub Qureshis should be fined and punished. Regards Rakesh From c.anupam at gmail.com Fri Jun 19 21:16:45 2009 From: c.anupam at gmail.com (anupam chakravartty) Date: Fri, 19 Jun 2009 21:16:45 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Shahidul Alam detained by Indian Border Security Force In-Reply-To: <762516.1112.qm@web53603.mail.re2.yahoo.com> References: <762516.1112.qm@web53603.mail.re2.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <341380d00906190846p4231f54gc92133602adf8580@mail.gmail.com> Dear Rahul, I am sorry that I am addressing the question that you have raised specifically for Shuddha to reply. However, I would like to add something. I guess for many of the readers in this list, perceiving your nation, as your home is one thing, being an understanding as well as an empathetic neighbour is another. May be these two things are connected but I feel that the moment one goes gung-ho about their home, their land and their resources, it reminds me of this pot-bellied uncle next door, who would scream the moment my football would enter his compound. I feel I don’t want my nation to behave like that pot-bellied neighbour of mine. I say this because our members have been drawing this analogy of home and the question that you have posed here: “Do you think that people should be allowed unrestricted entry to other peoples homes at all times?” If I use this analogy, then this is what it looks like: 1. If India is so touchy about unrestricted entry of her neighbours, in this context, Bangladesh, she should have been like how neighbours are, boundaries drawn but certain limited contact should have been made possible like what she had with her other neighbour. Why are our fences so porous with Bangladesh? 2. It has been sixty years since we have living in this neighbourhood, count the number of times like feudal landlords we have waged wars with each other? If we care so much about our homes, why do we have people acting swinishly about which religion they belong to and other such things? Thanks anupam On 6/19/09, Rahul Asthana wrote: > > > Dear Sonia, > Do you agree with this - > "I think the detention of any human being on the grounds that he is > crossing an artificial, ephemeral, man-made border is an affront to > our common humanity." > Dear Shuddha, > Do you think that homes should be locked? Do you think that people should > be allowed unrestricted entry to other peoples homes at all times? > You have a very interesting idea.Lets explore the polemics around it. > > Thanks > Rahul > > --- On Fri, 6/19/09, S. Jabbar wrote: > > > From: S. Jabbar > > Subject: Re: [Reader-list] Shahidul Alam detained by Indian Border > Security Force > > To: "A.K. Malik" , "Shuddhabrata Sengupta" < > shuddha at sarai.net> > > Cc: "Sarai" > > Date: Friday, June 19, 2009, 8:57 AM > > Exactly what the English think about > > the Poles, the Germans about the Turks, > > the Americans about the Mexicans, and the Australians, > > Americans, French, > > Germans, Italians, Spaniards, Canadians, Poles, Mexicans, > > and Turks think > > about Indians. > > > > > > > From: "A.K. Malik" > > > Date: Thu, 18 Jun 2009 18:13:30 -0700 (PDT) > > > To: Shuddhabrata Sengupta > > > Cc: Sarai List > > > Subject: Re: [Reader-list] Shahidul Alam detained by > > Indian Border Security > > > Force > > > > > > > > Hi, > > Views are very noble, interesting and > > appreciable from humane point > > > of view. But when you lose your identity,home, job > > because someone crosses > > > over illegally to your country, things become > > different. Global brotherhood is > > > easy to talk about, but difficult to implement > > especially in the current > > > environs.Imagine most Bangladeshis, Africans coming > > over freely to our country > > > to make our life more pleasant by doing menial jobs > > and terrorist walking over > > > freely from Pakistan...!!!!!!! > > Regards, > > > > (A.K.MALIK) > > > > > > --- On Fri, 6/19/09, > > > Shuddhabrata Sengupta > > wrote: > > > > > From: Shuddhabrata > > > Sengupta > > > Subject: Re: [Reader-list] Shahidul Alam > > > detained by Indian Border Security Force > > > To: "sarai list" > > > > > > Date: Friday, June 19, 2009, 3:11 AM > > > Dear All, > > > > > > > > > I think the detention of any human being on the > > grounds > > > that he is > > > > > > crossing an artificial, ephemeral, man-made border is > > an > > > affront to > > > our > > > common humanity. Borders come and go, and people will > > > move across > > > them, > > > and have always moved across them, regardless of the > > > controls > > > that seek > > > to restrict movement. Otherwise we would all > > > be > > > uncivilised, uncouth, > > > provincial barbarians. > > > > > > Shahidul Alam happens to be a very respected > > > > > > photographer, but his > > > detention by an Indian border patrol would have been > > > just > > > as horrible > > > if he were an honest, hard working peasant, > > > agricultural > > > worker, > > > factory worker, cook, student, plumber or > > > sex-worker from > > > Bangladesh > > > who happened to have got caught while being > > > on the 'wrong' > > > side of > > > the insane labyrinth that is called the > > > India-Bangladesh > > > border . > > > > > > The city of Delhi, where I live, is sustained > > > by the hard > > > labour of > > > many Bangladeshis who work as domestic help, as > > > informal > > > factory > > > workers, as people in the formal as well as informal > > > > > > hospitality > > > industry, as white collar workers. Not all of them are > > in > > > > > > Delhi > > > 'Legally' but the city would be poorer without them, > > as > > > would > > > many > > > cities all over the world. Imagine Rome, London, New > > York, > > > > > > Melbourne, > > > Warsaw or New Delhi without the cheerful, ironic, > > gentle > > > > > > Bangladeshi > > > who cleans homes, sells flowers, works as a doctor, > > drives > > > a > > > taxi, > > > makes love, cooks meals, writes poems, builds houses, > > turns > > > > > > lathes > > > and sings songs. The free movement of people is a > > > precondition > > > of a > > > free world, and the free movement of Bangladeshi > > people, > > > many of > > > > > > whom, who with their immense energy, good humour and > > gentle > > > irony > > > > > > sustain a more humane fabric of everyday life is what > > makes > > > life > > > worth > > > living in many parts of the world. They show you the > > > way in > > > strange > > > cities. They sing you a snatch of song. Sometimes > > > they give > > > you an > > > unasked for discount on the bill at the end of a big > > > meal when > > > you are > > > hungry. > > > > > > All those who oppose the free movement of people, > > whether > > > the > > > people > > > are identified, or choose to identify themselves as > > > > > > Bangladeshis, > > > Poles, Croats, Palestinians, Israelis, Pakistanis, > > > Indians, > > > Iraqis, > > > Iranians, Afghans, Somalis or Congolese are inhuman, > > > > > > inhospitable and > > > enemies of our shared humanity. > > > > > > On another note, I > > > have said this before, but I will > > > say it again. I > > > find the detention of > > > Pragya Bharti under preventive > > > detention laws > > > as reprehensible as that > > > of Binayak Sen or those (many > > > young people) > > > who are accused of being > > > SIMI or Indian Mujahideen > > > frontmen, or of > > > being Maoists, or opposed to > > > circumstances of that prevail > > > Kashmir or > > > in the North Eastern states of > > > India. > > > > > > Preventive detention, under any circumstances, is an > > insult > > > to > > > > > > liberty and should be opposed, no matter who is being > > > detained, > > > > > > whether it is Varun Gandhi, Binayak Sen, Pragya Bharti > > or > > > anyone else. > > > > > > > > > regards > > > > > > Shuddha > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > On 17-Jun-09, at 12:35 PM, Rajendra Bhat > > > Uppinangadi > > > wrote: > > > > > > > Dear All, one issue that is concerning me is, > > are > > > men > > > and women in > > > > media > > > > above laws.? If they are doing any project, > > > they can > > > violate laws > > > > of the > > > > land.? Is media responsible to > > > citizens of the nation > > > in which they > > > > are > > > > operating.? Or they are > > > responsible only to media > > > barons and the share > > > > holders of the media > > > corporate to share the "profits" > > > of such > > > > projects.? As > > > > the humans > > > work in different walks of life, do they > > > become above > > > > laws if > > > > they > > > are say, politicians, judicial appointees and > > > executives, or > > > > are > > > they > > > > appointed to serve the citizens in best possible > > > interests of the > > > > > > > citizens.? > > > > > > > > Now, as to current matter ubder > > > discussion, it is > > > to be noted > > > > that if the > > > > border force do their duties sincerely, no > > > under age > > > married girls > > > > can come > > > > in to India and work as dance bar > > > girls, sex workers > > > in as far as > > > > south > > > > India, particularly in > > > Chennai, Bangalore, and > > > Hyderabad. It is > > > > true that > > > > they have > > > practically no opportunities to earn a > > > living in their > > > > bangaldesh, > > > > > > > but the sad issue is many of these married girls are > > > in southern > > > > > > > India,, > > > > recently Bangalore police with Chennai counter > > parts > > > ripped > > > open > > > > the network > > > > of this illegal trade of human traffick and sex > > > trade. > > > Local news > > > > network > > > > channel 9 and Udaya TV and also Suvarna > > > tv covered the > > > issue > > > > comprehensively. Even with recession and lesser > > > > > > salaries, the > > > > stressed minds > > > > are seeking extra carnal pleasures ? > > > > > > > > > > > As to this man of media, why he has not taken > > > necessary > > > > > > > authorisation for > > > > the project work.? Is he under cover operative > > for any > > > > > > group.? If Dr. > > > > Binayak Sen can be held captive in detention for > > the > > > good > > > work he > > > > has had on > > > > record, is not above laws, which ofcourse is > > > obnxious, > > > are men in > > > > media > > > > above laws.? > > > > > > > > Amusingly, the > > > fate of Prajna Thakur > > > and 12 others who are under > > > > detention > > > > for > > > months now without any shred of proof has no > > > defenders of human > > > > > > > rights > > > > talking or them.! None is concerned about these > > > detentions of > > > Prajna > > > > Thakur.? Perceptions of a few seem to be taking > > over > > > the rights > > > and > > > > wrongs > > > > in society, when it comes to human rights of the > > > > > > humans.? > > > > > > > > Regards, > > > > > > > > Rajen. > > > > > > > > On Wed, Jun 17, 2009 at > > > 11:16 AM, anupam > > > chakravartty > > > > wrote: > > > > > > > >> > > > Photographer Shahidul Alam spends 6hrs in BSF > > > custody: > > > >> > > > >> > > > http://bdnews24.com/details.php?id=87461&cid=2 > > > >> > > > >> > > > >> > > > http://www.indianexpress.com/news/Bangladeshi-photographer-held-- > > > > > > >> > > > crossing--Indo-Bangla-border/477648 > > > >> > > > >> Two versions of the same story. > > > However, if as per > > > the BSF > > > >> officials are > > > >> claiming that Alam > > > crossed over in the Dhubri > > > sector, which is > > > >> also my home > > > >> > > > district, the Brahmaputra river is itself the > > > border. during the > > > >> > > > floods > > > >> immigrant bangladeshis in connivance of BSF > > and > > > BDR enter India > > > on > > > >> boats > > > >> carrying pineapples from across the border. > > the no > > > > > > man's land > > > >> mentioned in > > > >> both of the reports is actually river > > > > > > brahmaputra. > > > >> > > > >> thanks anupam > > > >> > > > >> > > > >> On 6/17/09, Santhosh Kumar > > > > > > wrote: > > > >>> > > > >>> it is hard to believe that > > > you will > > > believe.... > > > >>> > > > >>> On Wed, Jun 17, 2009 at 9:53 AM, Pawan > > > > > > Durani > > > >>> > > >>>> wrote: > > > >>> > > > >>>> Hard to > > > believe ..... > > > >>>> > > > >>>> On Tue, Jun 16, 2009 at 7:55 PM, > > Shun-Ling > > > Chen > > > > > > >>>> > > >>>>> wrote: > > > >>>> > > > >>>>> > > > >>> > > > http://unheardvoice.net/blog/2009/06/16/shahidul-alam-detained-by- > > > > > > >>> > > > indian > > > >>>>> -border-security-force/ > > > >>>>> > > > >>>>> Dr Shahidul Alam, > > > well-known > > > photographer, and founder Drik, was > > > >>>>> detained by Indian > > > Border Security > > > Forces while working on the > > > >>>>> Bangladesh side of the > > > border on his > > > Brahmaputra project. He > > > >>>>> called > > > >> me > > > >>>>> at > > > 18:21 pm to tell me that the guards > > > had asked him to come over, > > > >> and > > > > > > >>>>> then detained him at Sahapara 21 > > IPP, > > > across the border from > > > >>>>> > > > Rowmari. > > > >>>>> His two colleagues are on the > > > Bangladeshi side of the > > > border, and > > > >> can't > > > >>>>> get to him. > > > >>>>> > > > >>>>> Please contact Home > > > and Foreign > > > Ministry officials requesting that > > > >> they > > > >>>>> do all > > > possible to get him released > > > immediately. It is worth > > > >> mentioning > > > > > > >>>>> that the Indian BSF have detained > > and > > > killed many innocent > > > >> > > > Bangladeshis > > > >>>>> in recent years, in the border > > areas. > > > >>>>> > > > >>>>> > > > http://www.mediahelpingmedia.org/content/view/387/1/ > > > >>>>> News - South > > > Asia > > > >>>>> By David Brewer > > > >>>>> Tuesday, 16 June 2009 > > > >>>>> > > > >>>>> > > > Reports from Bangladesh say that > > > Shahidul Alam, the photo > > > >>>>> > > > journalist, > > > >>>>> blogger and founder of the Drik > > > picture network has > > > been > > > >>>>> detained by > > > >>>>> Indian border security forces > > while > > > > > > working on the Bangladesh > > > >>>>> side of > > > >>>>> the border. > > > >>>>> > > > > > > >>>>> In a message to this site from > > Dhaka, > > > Alam's partner says he was > > > >>> > > > working > > > >>>>> on a multimedia project about > > the > > > Brahmaputra with two > > > colleagues > > > >> when > > > >>>>> border guards took him awa > > > >>>>> > > > >>>>> There > > > are now fears for Alam's safety > > > and supporters are > > > >>>>> calling on > > > >> > > > the > > > >>>>> international community to push > > for > > > his release. > > > >>>>> > > > >>>>> > > > The last message from Shahidul Alam > > > came through at !8:21 on > > > >>>>> > > > Tuesday > > > >> 16 > > > >>>>> June when he called home to say > > that > > > border security > > > guards had > > > >>>>> asked > > > >>>>> him to come over to the Indian > > side of > > > > > > the border where they > > > >>>>> detained > > > >>>>> him at Sahapara 21 IPP, > > > across the > > > border from Rowmari. > > > >>>>> > > > >>>>> His two colleagues are on > > > the > > > Bangladeshi side of the border, and > > > >> can't > > > >>>>> get to him. > > > > > > >>>>> > > > >>>>> At the time Alam was working on > > the > > > Bangladesh end of the > > > river > > > >>>>> Brahmaputra project. He had > > travelled > > > to Kurigram with two > > > Drik > > > >>>>> colleagues to take photos, video > > and > > > stills. > > > >>>>> > > > >>>>> > > > Contact has been made with a number of > > > local and international > > > >>>>> > > > media > > > >>>>> organisations and government > > > officials, including the Indian > > > High > > > >>>>> Commission. > > > >>>>> > > > _________________________________________ > > > > > > >>>>> reader-list: an open discussion > > list > > > on media and the city. > > > >>>>> > > > Critiques & Collaborations > > > >>>>> To subscribe: send an email to > > > reader-list-request at sarai.net > > > with > > > >>>>> subscribe in the subject > > > header. > > > >>>>> To unsubscribe: > > > https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader- > > > >>>>> list > > > >>>>> List > > > archive: > > > >>>> > > > _________________________________________ > > > >>>> reader-list: an open > > > discussion list on > > > media and the city. > > > >>>> Critiques & Collaborations > > > > > > >>>> To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net > > > with > > > > > > >>>> subscribe in the subject header. > > > >>>> To unsubscribe: > > > https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > > > >>>> List archive: > > > > > > >>>> > > > >>> > > > _________________________________________ > > > >>> reader-list: an open > > > discussion list on media > > > and the city. > > > >>> Critiques & Collaborations > > > > > > >>> To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net > > > with > > > >>> > > > subscribe in the subject header. > > > >>> To unsubscribe: > > > https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > > > >>> List archive: > > > > > > >> > > > _________________________________________ > > > >> reader-list: an open discussion > > > list on media and > > > the city. > > > >> Critiques & Collaborations > > > >> To > > > subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net > > > with > > > >> > > > subscribe in the subject header. > > > >> To unsubscribe: > > > https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > > > >> List archive: > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > -- > > > > > > > Rajen. > > > > _________________________________________ > > > > reader-list: an > > > open discussion list on media and the > > > city. > > > > Critiques & Collaborations > > > > > > > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net > > > with > > > > > > > subscribe in the subject header. > > > > To unsubscribe: > > > https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > > > > List archive: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > _________________________________________ > > > reader-list: an open discussion > > > list on media and the > > > city. > > > Critiques & Collaborations > > > To subscribe: > > > send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net > > > with subscribe in the subject > > > header. > > > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > > > > > > List archive: > > > > > > > > > > > _________________________________________ > > reader-list: an open discussion > > > list on media and the city. > > Critiques & Collaborations > > To subscribe: send an > > > email to reader-list-request at sarai.net > > with subscribe in the subject > > > header. > > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > > > > > List archive: > > > > > > _________________________________________ > > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the > > city. > > Critiques & Collaborations > > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net > > with subscribe in the subject header. > > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > > List archive: > > > > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > subscribe in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: From rahul_capri at yahoo.com Fri Jun 19 21:39:47 2009 From: rahul_capri at yahoo.com (Rahul Asthana) Date: Fri, 19 Jun 2009 09:09:47 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Reader-list] Shahidul Alam detained by Indian Border Security Force Message-ID: <990757.89093.qm@web53602.mail.re2.yahoo.com> Dear Anupam, Your question is a straw man.I am not drawing any analogy between nation and home.My question to Shuddha is based upon his statement about artificial borders etc. Thanks Rahul --- On Fri, 6/19/09, anupam chakravartty wrote: > From: anupam chakravartty > Subject: Re: [Reader-list] Shahidul Alam detained by Indian Border Security Force > To: "sarai list" > Date: Friday, June 19, 2009, 9:16 PM > Dear Rahul, > > > > I am sorry that I am addressing the question that you have > raised > specifically for Shuddha to reply. However, I would like to > add something. I > guess for many of the readers in this list, perceiving your > nation, as your > home is one thing, being an understanding as well as an > empathetic neighbour > is another. May be these two things are connected but I > feel that the moment > one goes gung-ho about their home, their land and their > resources, it > reminds me of this pot-bellied uncle next door, who would > scream the moment > my football would enter his compound. I feel I don’t want > my nation to > behave like that pot-bellied neighbour of mine. I say this > because our > members have been drawing this analogy of home and the > question that you > have posed here: “Do you think that people should be > allowed unrestricted > entry to other peoples homes at all times?” > > > > If I use this analogy, then this is what it looks like: > > > >    1. If India is so touchy about > unrestricted entry of her neighbours, in >    this context, Bangladesh, she should have > been like how neighbours are, >    boundaries drawn but certain limited > contact should have been made possible >    like what she had with her other > neighbour. Why are our fences so porous >    with Bangladesh? >    2. It has been sixty years since we have > living in this neighbourhood, >    count the number of times like feudal > landlords we have waged wars with each >    other? If we care so much about our > homes, why do we have people acting >    swinishly about which religion they > belong to and other such things? > > > Thanks anupam > > On 6/19/09, Rahul Asthana > wrote: > > > > > > Dear Sonia, > > Do you agree with this - > > "I think the detention of any human being on the > grounds that he is > > crossing an artificial, ephemeral, man-made border is > an affront to > > our common humanity." > > Dear Shuddha, > > Do you think that homes should be locked? Do you think > that people should > > be allowed unrestricted entry to other peoples homes > at all times? > > You have a very interesting idea.Lets explore the > polemics around it. > > > > Thanks > > Rahul > > > > --- On Fri, 6/19/09, S. Jabbar > wrote: > > > > > From: S. Jabbar > > > Subject: Re: [Reader-list] Shahidul Alam detained > by Indian Border > > Security Force > > > To: "A.K. Malik" , > "Shuddhabrata Sengupta" < > > shuddha at sarai.net> > > > Cc: "Sarai" > > > Date: Friday, June 19, 2009, 8:57 AM > > > Exactly what the English think about > > > the Poles, the Germans about the Turks, > > > the Americans about the Mexicans, and the > Australians, > > > Americans, French, > > > Germans, Italians, Spaniards, Canadians, Poles, > Mexicans, > > > and Turks think > > > about Indians. > > > > > > > > > > From: "A.K. Malik" > > > > Date: Thu, 18 Jun 2009 18:13:30 -0700 (PDT) > > > > To: Shuddhabrata Sengupta > > > > Cc: Sarai List > > > > Subject: Re: [Reader-list] Shahidul Alam > detained by > > > Indian Border Security > > > > Force > > > > > > > > > > > Hi, > > >     Views are very noble, > interesting and > > > appreciable from humane point > > > > of view. But when you lose your > identity,home, job > > > because someone crosses > > > > over illegally to your country, things > become > > > different. Global brotherhood is > > > > easy to talk about, but difficult to > implement > > > especially in the current > > > > environs.Imagine most Bangladeshis, Africans > coming > > > over freely to our country > > > > to make our life more pleasant by doing > menial jobs > > > and terrorist walking over > > > > freely from Pakistan...!!!!!!! > > > Regards, > > > > > > (A.K.MALIK) > > > > > > > > > --- On Fri, 6/19/09, > > > > Shuddhabrata Sengupta > > > wrote: > > > > > > > From: Shuddhabrata > > > > Sengupta > > > > Subject: Re: [Reader-list] Shahidul Alam > > > > detained by Indian Border Security Force > > > > To: "sarai list" > > > > > > > > Date: Friday, June 19, 2009, 3:11 AM > > > > Dear All, > > > > > > > > > > > > I think the detention of any human being on > the > > > grounds > > > > that he is > > > > > > > > crossing an artificial, ephemeral, man-made > border is > > > an > > > > affront to > > > > our > > > > common humanity. Borders come and go, and > people will > > > > move across > > > > them, > > > > and have always moved across them, > regardless of the > > > > controls > > > > that seek > > > > to restrict movement. Otherwise we would > all > > > > be > > > > uncivilised, uncouth, > > > > provincial barbarians. > > > > > > > >   Shahidul Alam happens to be > a very respected > > > > > > > > photographer, but his > > > > detention by an Indian border patrol would > have been > > > > just > > > > as horrible > > > > if he were an honest, hard working peasant, > > > > agricultural > > > > worker, > > > > factory worker, cook, student, plumber or > > > > sex-worker from > > > > Bangladesh > > > > who happened to have got caught while being > > > > on the 'wrong' > > > > side of > > > > the insane labyrinth that is called the > > > > India-Bangladesh > > > > border . > > > > > > > > The city of Delhi, where I live, is > sustained > > > > by the hard > > > > labour of > > > > many Bangladeshis who work as domestic help, > as > > > > informal > > > > factory > > > > workers, as people in the formal as well as > informal > > > > > > > > hospitality > > > > industry, as white collar workers. Not all > of them are > > > in > > > > > > > > Delhi > > > > 'Legally' but the city would be poorer > without them, > > > as > > > > would > > > > many > > > > cities all over the world. Imagine Rome, > London, New > > > York, > > > > > > > > Melbourne, > > > > Warsaw or New Delhi without the cheerful, > ironic, > > > gentle > > > > > > > > Bangladeshi > > > > who cleans homes, sells flowers, works as a > doctor, > > > drives > > > > a > > > > taxi, > > > > makes love, cooks meals, writes poems, > builds houses, > > > turns > > > > > > > > lathes > > > > and sings songs.  The free movement of > people is a > > > > precondition > > > > of a > > > > free world, and the free movement of > Bangladeshi > > > people, > > > > many of > > > > > > > > whom, who with their immense energy, good > humour and > > > gentle > > > > irony > > > > > > > > sustain a more humane fabric of everyday > life is what > > > makes > > > > life > > > > worth > > > > living in many parts of the world. They show > you the > > > > way in > > > > strange > > > > cities. They sing you a snatch of song. > Sometimes > > > > they give > > > > you an > > > > unasked for discount on the bill at the end > of a big > > > > meal when > > > > you are > > > > hungry. > > > > > > > > All those who oppose the free movement of > people, > > > whether > > > > the > > > > people > > > > are identified, or choose to identify > themselves as > > > > > > > > Bangladeshis, > > > > Poles, Croats, Palestinians, Israelis, > Pakistanis, > > > > Indians, > > > > Iraqis, > > > > Iranians, Afghans, Somalis or Congolese are > inhuman, > > > > > > > > inhospitable and > > > > enemies of our shared humanity. > > > > > > > > On another note,  I > > > > have said this before, but I will > > > > say it again. I > > > > find the detention of > > > > Pragya Bharti under preventive > > > > detention laws > > > > as reprehensible as that > > > > of Binayak Sen or those (many > > > > young people) > > > > who are accused of being > > > > SIMI or Indian Mujahideen > > > > frontmen, or of > > > > being Maoists, or opposed to > > > > circumstances of that prevail > > > > Kashmir or > > > > in the North Eastern states of > > > > India. > > > > > > > > Preventive detention, under any > circumstances, is an > > > insult > > > > to > > > > > > > > liberty and should be opposed, no matter who > is being > > > > detained, > > > > > > > > whether it is Varun Gandhi, Binayak Sen, > Pragya Bharti > > > or > > > > anyone else. > > > > > > > > > > > > regards > > > > > > > > Shuddha > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > On 17-Jun-09, at 12:35 PM, Rajendra Bhat > > > > Uppinangadi > > > > wrote: > > > > > > > > > Dear All, one issue that is concerning > me is, > > > are > > > > men > > > > and women in > > > > > media > > > > > above laws.? If they are doing any > project, > > > > they can > > > > violate laws > > > > > of the > > > > > land.? Is media responsible to > > > > citizens of the nation > > > > in which they > > > > > are > > > > > operating.? Or they are > > > > responsible only to media > > > > barons and the share > > > > > holders of the media > > > > corporate to share the "profits" > > > > of such > > > > > projects.? As > > > > > the humans > > > > work in different walks of life, do they > > > > become above > > > > > laws if > > > > > they > > > > are say, politicians, judicial appointees > and > > > > executives, or > > > > > are > > > > they > > > > > appointed to serve the citizens in best > possible > > > > interests of the > > > > > > > > > citizens.? > > > > > > > > > >   Now, as to current > matter ubder > > > > discussion, it is > > > > to be noted > > > > > that if the > > > > > border force do their duties sincerely, > no > > > > under age > > > > married girls > > > > > can come > > > > > in to India and work as dance bar > > > > girls, sex workers > > > > in as far as > > > > > south > > > > > India, particularly in > > > > Chennai, Bangalore, and > > > > Hyderabad. It is > > > > > true that > > > > > they have > > > > practically no opportunities to earn a > > > > living in their > > > > > bangaldesh, > > > > > > > > > but the sad issue is many of these married > girls are > > > > in southern > > > > > > > > > India,, > > > > > recently Bangalore police with Chennai > counter > > > parts > > > > ripped > > > > open > > > > > the network > > > > > of this illegal trade of human traffick > and sex > > > > trade. > > > > Local news > > > > > network > > > > > channel 9 and Udaya TV and also > Suvarna > > > > tv covered the > > > > issue > > > > > comprehensively. Even with recession > and lesser > > > > > > > > salaries, the > > > > > stressed minds > > > > > are seeking extra carnal pleasures ? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > As to this man of media, why he has not > taken > > > > necessary > > > > > > > > > authorisation for > > > > > the project work.? Is he under cover > operative > > > for any > > > > > > > > group.? If Dr. > > > > > Binayak Sen can be held captive in > detention for > > > the > > > > good > > > > work he > > > > > has had on > > > > > record, is not above laws, which > ofcourse is > > > > obnxious, > > > > are men in > > > > > media > > > > > above laws.? > > > > > > > > > >   Amusingly, the > > > > fate of Prajna Thakur > > > > and 12 others who are under > > > > > detention > > > > > for > > > > months now without any shred of proof has > no > > > > defenders of human > > > > > > > > > rights > > > > > talking or them.! None is concerned > about these > > > > detentions of > > > > Prajna > > > > > Thakur.? Perceptions of a few seem to > be taking > > > over > > > > the rights > > > > and > > > > > wrongs > > > > > in society, when it comes to human > rights of the > > > > > > > > humans.? > > > > > > > > > >   Regards, > > > > > > > > > >    Rajen. > > > > > > > > > > On Wed, Jun 17, 2009 at > > > > 11:16 AM, anupam > > > > chakravartty > > > > > wrote: > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > Photographer Shahidul Alam spends 6hrs in > BSF > > > > custody: > > > > >> > > > > >> > > > > http://bdnews24.com/details.php?id=87461&cid=2 > > > > >> > > > > >> > > > > >> > > > > http://www.indianexpress.com/news/Bangladeshi-photographer-held-- > > > > > > > > >> > > > > crossing--Indo-Bangla-border/477648 > > > > >> > > > > >> Two versions of the same story. > > > > However, if as per > > > > the BSF > > > > >> officials are > > > > >> claiming that Alam > > > > crossed over in the Dhubri > > > > sector, which is > > > > >> also my home > > > > >> > > > > district, the Brahmaputra river is itself > the > > > > border. during the > > > > >> > > > > floods > > > > >> immigrant bangladeshis in > connivance of BSF > > > and > > > > BDR enter India > > > > on > > > > >> boats > > > > >> carrying pineapples from across the > border. > > > the no > > > > > > > > man's land > > > > >> mentioned in > > > > >> both of the reports is actually > river > > > > > > > > brahmaputra. > > > > >> > > > > >> thanks anupam > > > > >> > > > > >> > > > > >> On 6/17/09, Santhosh Kumar > > > > > > > > wrote: > > > > >>> > > > > >>> it is hard to believe that > > > > you will > > > > believe.... > > > > >>> > > > > >>> On Wed, Jun 17, 2009 at 9:53 > AM, Pawan > > > > > > > > Durani > > > > >>> > > > >>>> wrote: > > > > >>> > > > > >>>> Hard to > > > > believe ..... > > > > >>>> > > > > >>>> On Tue, Jun 16, 2009 at > 7:55 PM, > > > Shun-Ling > > > > Chen > > > > > > > > >>>> > > > >>>>> wrote: > > > > >>>> > > > > >>>>> > > > > >>> > > > > http://unheardvoice.net/blog/2009/06/16/shahidul-alam-detained-by- > > > > > > > > >>> > > > > indian > > > > >>>>> > -border-security-force/ > > > > >>>>> > > > > >>>>> Dr Shahidul Alam, > > > > well-known > > > > photographer, and founder Drik, was > > > > >>>>> detained by Indian > > > > Border Security > > > > Forces while working on the > > > > >>>>> Bangladesh side of the > > > > border on his > > > > Brahmaputra project. He > > > > >>>>> called > > > > >> me > > > > >>>>> at > > > > 18:21 pm to tell me that the guards > > > > had asked him to come over, > > > > >> and > > > > > > > > >>>>> then detained him at > Sahapara 21 > > > IPP, > > > > across the border from > > > > >>>>> > > > > Rowmari. > > > > >>>>> His two colleagues are > on the > > > > Bangladeshi side of the > > > > border, and > > > > >> can't > > > > >>>>> get to him. > > > > >>>>> > > > > >>>>> Please contact Home > > > > and Foreign > > > > Ministry officials requesting that > > > > >> they > > > > >>>>> do all > > > > possible to get him released > > > > immediately. It is worth > > > > >> mentioning > > > > > > > > >>>>> that the Indian BSF > have detained > > > and > > > > killed many innocent > > > > >> > > > > Bangladeshis > > > > >>>>> in recent years, in the > border > > > areas. > > > > >>>>> > > > > >>>>> > > > > http://www.mediahelpingmedia.org/content/view/387/1/ > > > > >>>>> News - South > > > > Asia > > > > >>>>> By David Brewer > > > > >>>>> Tuesday, 16 June 2009 > > > > >>>>> > > > > >>>>> > > > > Reports from Bangladesh say that > > > > Shahidul Alam, the photo > > > > >>>>> > > > > journalist, > > > > >>>>> blogger and founder of > the Drik > > > > picture network has > > > > been > > > > >>>>> detained by > > > > >>>>> Indian border security > forces > > > while > > > > > > > > working on the Bangladesh > > > > >>>>> side of > > > > >>>>> the border. > > > > >>>>> > > > > > > > > >>>>> In a message to this > site from > > > Dhaka, > > > > Alam's partner says he was > > > > >>> > > > > working > > > > >>>>> on a multimedia project > about > > > the > > > > Brahmaputra with two > > > > colleagues > > > > >> when > > > > >>>>> border guards took him > awa > > > > >>>>> > > > > >>>>> There > > > > are now fears for Alam's safety > > > > and supporters are > > > > >>>>> calling on > > > > >> > > > > the > > > > >>>>> international community > to push > > > for > > > > his release. > > > > >>>>> > > > > >>>>> > > > > The last message from Shahidul Alam > > > > came through at !8:21 on > > > > >>>>> > > > > Tuesday > > > > >> 16 > > > > >>>>> June when he called > home to say > > > that > > > > border security > > > > guards had > > > > >>>>> asked > > > > >>>>> him to come over to the > Indian > > > side of > > > > > > > > the border where they > > > > >>>>> detained > > > > >>>>> him at Sahapara 21 > IPP, > > > > across the > > > > border from Rowmari. > > > > >>>>> > > > > >>>>> His two colleagues are > on > > > > the > > > > Bangladeshi side of the border, and > > > > >> can't > > > > >>>>> get to him. > > > > > > > > >>>>> > > > > >>>>> At the time Alam was > working on > > > the > > > > Bangladesh end of the > > > > river > > > > >>>>> Brahmaputra project. He > had > > > travelled > > > > to Kurigram with two > > > > Drik > > > > >>>>> colleagues to take > photos, video > > > and > > > > stills. > > > > >>>>> > > > > >>>>> > > > > Contact has been made with a number of > > > > local and international > > > > >>>>> > > > > media > > > > >>>>> organisations and > government > > > > officials, including the Indian > > > > High > > > > >>>>> Commission. > > > > >>>>> > > > > _________________________________________ > > > > > > > > >>>>> reader-list: an open > discussion > > > list > > > > on media and the city. > > > > >>>>> > > > > Critiques & Collaborations > > > > >>>>> To subscribe: send an > email to > > > > reader-list-request at sarai.net > > > > with > > > > >>>>> subscribe in the > subject > > > > header. > > > > >>>>> To unsubscribe: > > > > https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader- > > > > >>>>> list > > > > >>>>> List > > > > archive: > > > > >>>> > > > > _________________________________________ > > > > >>>> reader-list: an open > > > > discussion list on > > > > media and the city. > > > > >>>> Critiques & > Collaborations > > > > > > > > >>>> To subscribe: send an email > to reader-list-request at sarai.net > > > > with > > > > > > > > >>>> subscribe in the subject > header. > > > > >>>> To unsubscribe: > > > > https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > > > > >>>> List archive: > > > > > > > > >>>> > > > > >>> > > > > _________________________________________ > > > > >>> reader-list: an open > > > > discussion list on media > > > > and the city. > > > > >>> Critiques & Collaborations > > > > > > > > >>> To subscribe: send an email to > reader-list-request at sarai.net > > > > with > > > > >>> > > > > subscribe in the subject header. > > > > >>> To unsubscribe: > > > > https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > > > > >>> List archive: > > > > > > > > >> > > > > _________________________________________ > > > > >> reader-list: an open discussion > > > > list on media and > > > > the city. > > > > >> Critiques & Collaborations > > > > >> To > > > > subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net > > > > with > > > > >> > > > > subscribe in the subject header. > > > > >> To unsubscribe: > > > > https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > > > > >> List archive: > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > -- > > > > > > > > > Rajen. > > > > > > _________________________________________ > > > > > reader-list: an > > > > open discussion list on media and the > > > > city. > > > > > Critiques & Collaborations > > > > > > > > > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net > > > > with > > > > > > > > > subscribe in the subject header. > > > > > To unsubscribe: > > > > https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > > > > > List archive: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > _________________________________________ > > > > reader-list: an open discussion > > > > list on media and the > > > > city. > > > > Critiques & Collaborations > > > > To subscribe: > > > > send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net > > > > with subscribe in the subject > > > > header. > > > > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > > > > > > > > List archive: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > _________________________________________ > > > reader-list: an open discussion > > > > list on media and the city. > > > Critiques & Collaborations > > > To subscribe: send an > > > > email to reader-list-request at sarai.net > > > with subscribe in the subject > > > > header. > > > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > > > > > > > List archive: > > > > > > > > > _________________________________________ > > > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and > the > > > city. > > > Critiques & Collaborations > > > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net > > > with subscribe in the subject header. > > > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > > > List archive: > > > > > > > > _________________________________________ > > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the > city. > > Critiques & Collaborations > > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net > with > > subscribe in the subject header. > > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > > List archive: > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the > city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net > with subscribe in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> From bawazainab79 at gmail.com Fri Jun 19 23:08:51 2009 From: bawazainab79 at gmail.com (Zainab Bawa) Date: Fri, 19 Jun 2009 23:08:51 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Hope in Iran? In-Reply-To: <0D746A4B-6B29-4439-9C60-3CC08964B91C@sarai.net> References: <0D746A4B-6B29-4439-9C60-3CC08964B91C@sarai.net> Message-ID: Dear Shuddha, Many thanks for this post. Here is an interesting link to a video which calls on all of us saying "We are all Iranians today" - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4QZ-Gb1Q8Ao Links to some photo essays too: http://www.payvand.com/news/09/jun/1177.html http://www.payvand.com/news/09/jun/1178.html http://www.payvand.com/news/09/jun/1191.html Regards, Zainab On Fri, Jun 19, 2009 at 3:57 AM, Shuddhabrata Sengupta wrote: > Dear All, > > The protests at what is rapidly unravelling as the 'stolen election' > in Iran are showing us a different face of Iran today. Hundreds and > thousands of peaceful men and women, assembling to denounce > Ahmedinijad as a dictator, all night long rooftop assemblies in > neighbourhoods that say 'death to the dictatorship' and a visibly > nervous 'Guardians Council'. Perhaps the next few days will show > which way Iran will turn. > > There are already reports of attacks on dormitories in Tehran, and > the regime's thugs have already killed several people, which has > unleashed another wave of mass protests. The BBC, which has an > excellent Farsi service (much better than many of its other bureaus) > has been doing a good job of reporting from Tehran, Isfahan, Tabriz > and elsewhere in Iran, and you can follow more links at > > http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/8108115.stm > > I am appending a matter of fact report that appeared on the AP wire > earlier below. > > I'd like to thank Paul Miller, who forwarded us Naeem Moaheiemen's > text, and the statement of the Tudeh Party. I hope that list members > will take the trouble to trawl through Iranian websites and blogs and > send us more material, and if anyone knows Iranian friends who can > write to the list directly, it would be great > > Hopefully, the Ahmedinijad regime, drunk for years on high petrol > prices, and now suffering from a recession induced hangover, brutal > and callous as it is, is on its last legs, but we have seen people in > Iran move close to liberty and then be crushed again, and again, > before. Let us home that Tehran does not echo Tienanmen. > > Many years ago, our own Urdu poet Faiz Ahmed Faiz, wrote a nazm > dedicated to Iranian students (Irani tulba ke naam), who were > protesting against the Shah's tyranny. And it goes something like this. > . > Yeh kaun jawan hain > arz-e-ajam > Yeh lakh lut > Jin kay jismon ka kundan > Yun khak main raiza > raiza hay > > (Who are these young men, > O the land of Ajam > These large-hearted > The jewel of whose bodies > Is scattered on dust in pieces) > > Let us hope that the jewels of Iran do not get scattered on the > streets of Tehran this time. Let us hope that Ahmedinijad and the > corrupt theocracy that backs him, meets the same fate that the Shah > did. Let us hope that what unfolds in the next few days in the > streets of Tehran leaves us smiling and not in tears. > > crossing my fingers, > > Shuddha > > > > > > Tehran protests stretch five miles > By ANNA JOHNSON and BRIAN MURPHY > The Associated Press > > TEHRAN, Iran | In a massive outpouring reminiscent of the 1979 > Islamic Revolution, hundreds of thousands of Iranians streamed > through the capital Monday, denouncing President Mahmoud > Ahmadinejad’s claim to victory in a disputed election. > > The huge rally — and smaller protests across the country — reinforced > what has become increasingly clear since the election: the opposition > forces rallying behind reform leader Mir Hossein Mousavi show no > signs of backing down. > > The rapidly spreading unrest also has pushed Supreme Leader Ayatollah > Ali Khamenei, the state’s most powerful figure, into the high-profile > role of political referee. Much of the real power in the nation rests > with the 70-year-old cleric, who reigns over Iran’s Islamic system > and functions as a one-man supreme court. > > In a dramatic turnaround Monday, Khamenei ordered an investigation > into election fraud allegations, just two days after he had urged the > nation to unite behind Ahmadinejad. > > The probe by the Guardian Council, composed of clerics closely allied > with Khamenei, illustrates the supreme leader’s desire to avoid a > drawn-out political battle that could endanger the stability and > legitimacy of the country’s Islamic theocracy. At the very least, the > intervention could buy time in hopes of reducing the anti-Ahmadinejad > anger. > > Khamenei is a hard-liner who has battled reformists in the past, and > whose support helped Ahmadinejad first get elected in 2005. But > analysts say he is also a political realist, and in the past he has > made concessions to ensure his main goals — his own survival and that > of Iran’s cleric-run system. > > It appeared that Khamenei had opened the door for Monday’s > demonstrations in a possible bid to avoid more street clashes and > seek some breathing room. > > But a single moment could change all that. Gunfire erupted from a > compound used by the Basij, a volunteer militia linked to Iran’s > powerful Revolutionary Guard. An Associated Press photographer saw at > least one demonstrator killed and several others with what appeared > to be serious wounds. The protesters had tried to storm and set fire > to the compound on the edge of Azadi Square, also known as Freedom > Square. > > Some reports put the death toll higher, but they could not be confirmed. > > Angry men showed their bloody palms after cradling the dead man and > the wounded, who had been part of a crowd that stretched more than > five miles supporting Mousavi. > > In his first public comment on the Iranian election, President Barack > Obama said he was “deeply troubled by the violence I’ve been seeing > on TV.” > > Although he said he had no way of knowing whether the election was > valid, Obama praised protesters and Iranian youth who questioned the > results. > > “The world is watching and is inspired by their participation, > regardless of what the ultimate outcome of the election was,” he said. > > Police and other security forces stood by quietly — some sitting on > stoops with their batons and shields resting behind them as the > marchers swallowed the streets in parts of Tehran. > > Mousavi made his first public appearance since the polls closed, and > he launched his claims that the vote was rigged to re-elect the hard- > line president. > > Brief clips of the march were shown on state television in an > extremely rare nod to anti-government protests. > > “Respect the people’s vote!” Mousavi cried through a hand-held > loudspeaker in Azadi Square, where Iran’s leaders hold military and > political gatherings. > > Shuddhabrata Sengupta > The Sarai Programme at CSDS > Raqs Media Collective > shuddha at sarai.net > www.sarai.net > www.raqsmediacollective.net > > > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > subscribe in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> -- Zainab Bawa Ph.D. Student and Independent Researcher Gaining Ground ... http://zainab.freecrow.org http://cis-india.org/research/cis-raw/histories-of-the-internet/transparency-and-politics From shuddha at sarai.net Sat Jun 20 02:05:26 2009 From: shuddha at sarai.net (Shuddhabrata Sengupta) Date: Sat, 20 Jun 2009 02:05:26 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Shahidul Alam detained by Indian Border Security Force In-Reply-To: References: <308286.46350.qm@web39104.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <49062404-1752-42E9-B379-97423EED3173@sarai.net> Dear Rakesh, Dear All, I am perfectly well aware of the fact that nation states are a reality. However, not even the relatively short history of nation states suggests that passports, visas and border controls are part of the order of nature, even of nation states. If you look at the history of passport controls, you will find that the generalization of the passport dates to as recently as after the first world war. when a vast category of 'stateless people' displaced by the war had to be accounted for. Visa restrictions in the form that we know them today came even later. In fact, much later. So please do not assume that passports, visas and border controls are some kind of natural phenomena. They arise in specific circumstances, and are always challenged. Rakesh, I actually think it is you who are being romantic if you believe that people will stay where they are because some stupid laws tell them to do so. If you are forced to move, or choose to move, because your life is no longer worth living in a particular place, or simply because fancy strikes you, the idea that laws can hold you back is really an illusion. Nor is it mandatory that nation states must always dictate border controls of the kind that operate at the India-Bangladesh border today. In fact, in many parts of the world, for the citizens of many countries, travelling to their neighbouring country does not have to make them undergo the indignity of the inspection of the border. As usual, as Indians, we believe that what happens at our borders must be universal. This only betrays our arrogance. Nor are relations at border patrols strictly symmetrical. Mexicans crossing to the United States, in most instances, have to go through a very strict protocol. United States citizens crossing to Mexico on the other hand, are hardly checked. I for instance, have crossed 'illegally' from the United States to Mexico without a Mexican visa on my Indian passport, and I was not checked. The situation would have been very different if I were attempting to make the crossing in the opposite direction. I think that our lives would vastly improve if South Asia were made a visa free zone. Then, people of all South Asian countries could live and work in each others countries freely, and could contribute to each others societies. I do not think this is a pipe dream, on the other hand, I think that the current controls that operate are an artificial, impractical and inhuman set of controls that are bound to fail at every instance. I am absolutely pragmatic and practical on this issue and I strongly believe that letting there be free movement of goods, services and people in South Asia is the only sensible way to gurantee a common and secure future. I have several friends who are Pakistani, some live in Delhi, some have lived in Bombay, and they are valuable members of the life of both these cities. Much more valuable, in my opinion, than those xenophobes who seem to have nothing better to do than drag the name of their cities in the dirt of inhospitability. Someday, the Arabian Sea will be the final resting place of home grown xenophobia in Bombay. However, I am in agreement with you that some kind of green card or work permit system that can mature into full fledged citizenship, in the short run, is a desirable thing, as is dual citizenship, then hard working Bangladeshi migrant workers can have exactly the same kind of rights in India as many Indian migrants have in the United States. I see nothing wrong with that, and I think it can be a very practical arrangement. And frankly, if as a migrant, you pay taxes, then I see no reason why you should not vote. If Bangladeshi migrants find it possible to stay legally, amass enough wealth to pay taxes in Assam, or wherever else, then they should have voting rights, maybe on a cascading scale. regards, Shuddha On 19-Jun-09, at 7:19 AM, Rakesh Iyer wrote: > Dear Shuddha and Malik > > This is addressed to both of you, and I hope you don't mind that I > address both of you in the same mail. > > First, to you Shuddha jee. I think you are being romantic in > believing your conception of the world where people can move freely > without breaking laws. We are living in times where nation-states > (and a few state-nations like India) are a reality. I personally > feel it would be great enough if we can have people crossing > without any fear and problems. But there are numerous problems > associated with such issues. > > The sovereignty of a nation is one aspect. In a democracy like > India which has been reduced to a competitive exam (on the lines of > IIT-JEE or other entrance exams), parties just want to secure about > 20-25% of the vote (like saying a student needs to solve 25% of > questions to get selected in IIT's), and then win the elections and > form a government. And for doing so, all kinds of permutations and > combinations are tried (here of course there is no comparison with > IIT-JEE, except that permutations and combinations are a part of > the syllabus of IIT-JEE). These are done with communities and > castes before elections and with different elected members after > elections. The end result is a disaster. > > In such a kind of democracy where to gain power people resort to > competitive populism and not substantive issues, any such kind of > migration would lead to a disaster as Malik jee is indirectly > pointing out, because those who are migrating would clash with > those who currently live for voting and other rights. And already > the migration from Bangladesh is proving out to be a heart burn for > many. > > And being a humanist doesn't mean that we can allow people to come > here and then make them live in shanties or slums in the most > utterly disgusting conditions, on encroached land, illegally for > getting votes cheaply. This is not what humanity believes in. > > And we can't wish away the reality of a nation state, so therefore > what we do need to do, is to institutionalize the migration of > people for employment or business or other basis (maybe say > migration after marriage), so that such people can come in, but get > voting rights say after 10-15 years (through process of > naturalization). Why not do this? May be you can come up with some > other step. Let such people till then have labor cards or cards > which guarantee them the chance to live in the country, but not get > voting rights till they become citizens legally. > > Being a romantic will not help in such a case Sir. My suggestion > may not be practical as it is mentioned, but why not think of a > variant of such a method or even a new method which can ensure > peaceful migration without problems, is my moot point. > > Now for you Malik jee. First of all, when people come to your place > and live there, not only would you lose your former identity, but > even they lose their own identity. The tribals of India, when > forced to migrate because of displacement due to development > schemes like dams and destruction of forests, have lost their > identity too. Similarly, when Indians migrate to America, not only > would America lose its former identity, but Indians too lose their > Indian identity (and here Indian simply refers to the geographical > entity called India and the culture and different sub-identities > associated with it at different levels). > > Ironically, what comes out of it is a new identity in many cases. > Take the example of the rule of Muslim kings over India. The > identity of the then Hindu would have been lost in certain ways, > the identity of a Muslim would also have been lost as they > interacted with Hindus, and now we have a situation where Hindus > use Urdu and Muslims also have the caste system among them! What a > transformation! Isn't this too a loss of identity in some ways, and > a modification of identity in some other way? > > Secondly, I don't want people to migrate only for menial jobs. Even > if they do so, I would like them to come up in their life, as all > of us would want to. And more importantly, while I agree with you > that the current global situation would not allow us to do so, > migration of people across the entire earth is a right which we > should strive to achieve to. Making nation-states hasn't helped the > majority of people, and we should look to do something different. > The middle class anathema of anarchy probably makes them subscribe > to an Indian state, but an anarchic state (which our Indian > democracy is in and Gandhiji actually wanted this) is any day > better than an oppressing system which the Indian state indulges > in. India is mine, but not the Indian state. > > And last but not the least, Pakistani state has also started > fooling its people like our state since its independence, which is > why we have the problem of global terrorism (Our state specializes > in fooling on development paradigm, Pakistani state is specialist > in fooling on Islam and jehad). And it's our responsibility as > human beings to fight against the foolishdom and useless propaganda > being carried out in the name of terrorism and extremism, or other > ideologies. Instead, it seems we are being washed away by such > ideologies to become exactly like the enemy. > > And this is why the RSS wants Hindus to be organized like the > Muslims, so that like the Muslims organize together in a riot, > Hindus can also do so and conduct genocides like those in Gujarat. > In other words, the RSS wants Hindus to live like extremist > Muslims. And the extremist Muslims would like Muslims to be like > the way the RSS wants Hindus to be. They are not different, except > for their religious and organizational affiliations. > > Regards > > Rakesh Shuddhabrata Sengupta The Sarai Programme at CSDS Raqs Media Collective shuddha at sarai.net www.sarai.net www.raqsmediacollective.net From jeebesh at sarai.net Sat Jun 20 02:13:40 2009 From: jeebesh at sarai.net (Jeebesh) Date: Sat, 20 Jun 2009 02:13:40 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Fwd: Are vaccines helping or hurting our children? References: <984715.42571.qm@web94907.mail.in2.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <7D083DAB-972D-4456-A3AC-3A5F5B2984EA@sarai.net> Begin forwarded message: > From: Jagannath Chatterjee > Date: 17 June 2009 7:04:58 PM GMT+05:30 > > 50 Reasons to Protect Infants from Vaccines: > > - Jagannath Chatterjee > > > Note: I have been corresponding with the Union Health Minister and > his department on this subject since 2006. Neither the Minister nor > the Ministry have any answer to these points.. Even when Dr Abdul > Kalam, then President, raised the subject based on my inputs there > was no sincere attempt to clarify the position. I have since then > continuously educated the doctors on the subject. I have also > written to the current President, Vice President, PM, Sonia, the > NHRC, NCPCR, CM's of various states, MP's of various political > parties and all the medical institutions I can think of. I have also > written to the WHO, GAVI, UNICEF & PATH, premier institutions that > promote this highly controversial medical intervention . You will > agree that there should be a public debate on vaccines, otherwise > the unfortunate children do not stand a chance. > > > > There is no scientific study to determine whether vaccines have > really prevented diseases. Rather disease graphs show vaccines have > been introduced at the fag end of epidemics when the disease was > already in its last stages. In case of Small Pox the vaccine > actually caused a great spurt in the incidence of disease before > public outcry led to its withdrawal. > There are no long-term studies on vaccine safety. Very short-term > tests are carried out where the vaccinated subjects are checked > against another group who are given another vaccine. Technically the > tests should be carried out against a non-vaccinated group. No one > really knows what protocols are followed at such industry-sponsored > trials. > There has never been any official attempt to compare a vaccinated > population against a non vaccinated population to know what vaccines > are doing to the children and the society. Independent private > studies (Dutch & German) have revealed that vaccinated children > suffer much more than their un-vaccinated counterparts. > The child receives not one but many vaccines. There are no tests to > determine the effects of multiple vaccines. > There is no scientific basis for vaccinating infants. As per senior > doctors quoted by the Times of India, "Children suffer from less > that 2% of vaccine preventable illnesses but 98% of the vaccines are > targeted towards them." The vaccine pioneers who have recommended > abundant caution before vaccinating the population have never > advocated mass vaccinations. > Children are vaccinated simply because parents can be frightened to > forcefully vaccinate their children. Vaccinating infants is the most > profitable business both for the manufacturers as well as the doctors. > Infants, who are advised ONLY mothers milk till the age of six > months and beyond because their fragile system will not tolerate > anything else are given 30 extremely toxic vaccine shots, including > booster doses, an act that defies both logic and science. > The Government of India has come out with a quarter page > advertisement in The Hindu warning parents not to vaccinate beyond > the Government approved vaccines. Parents have been advised against > vaccinating in private clinics and hospitals. > The Orissa Chapter of the Indian Association of Pediatricians has > admitted in a letter to the CM, Orissa, that private clinics and > hospitals are ill equipped to store vaccines and warned parents not > to vaccinate upon the advise of private practitioners and hospitals. > ALL THE VACCINE INGREDIENTS ARE EXTREMELY TOXIC IN NATURE. > Vaccines contain heavy metals, cancer causing substances, toxic > chemicals, live and genetically modified viruses, contaminated serum > containing animal viruses and foreign genetic material, extremely > toxic de-contaminants and adjuvants, untested antibiotics, none of > which can be injected without causing any harm. > The mercury, aluminum and live viruses in vaccines may be behind the > huge epidemic of autism (1 in 10 worldwide as per doctors in the > USA, 1 in 37 as per a private study by doctors in New Delhi), a fact > that (vaccines cause autism) has been admitted by the US Vaccine > Court. > The CDC of USA, the vaccine watchdog, has publicly admitted that its > much-publicized 2003 study denying any link between vaccines and > autism, is flawed. The Chief of CDC Dr Gerberding has confessed to > the media (CNN) that vaccines can cause "autism like symptoms". The > Autism epidemic is found only in those countries that have allowed > mass vaccinations. > In the year 1999, the US Government instructed vaccine manufacturers > to remove mercury from vaccines "with immediate effect". But mercury > still remains a part of many vaccines. The vaccines with mercury > were never recalled and were given to children up to the year 2006. > "Mercury free" vaccines contain 0.05mcg of mercury, enough to > permanently damage a infant. As per an American Academy of > Pediatricians study: "Mercury in all of its forms is toxic to the > fetus and children and efforts should be made to reduce exposure to > the extent possible to pregnant women and children as well as the > general population." > IN INDIA NO ATTEMPT HAS BEEN MADE TO ENSURE THAT MERCURY AND OTHER > HEAVY METALS ARE REMOVED FROM VACCINES SIMPLY BECAUSE IT WOULD MAKE > VACCINES COSTLIER. > In a reply to then President Sri Abdul Kalam, the Health Ministry > informed, "mercury is required to make the vaccines safe". To the > author's query that "what are these vaccines that it requires the > second most dangerous neurotoxin, mercury, to make them safe?", > there was no reply. > Mercury used in vaccines is second in toxicity only to the > radioactive substance, Uranium. It is a neurotoxin that can damage > the entire nervous system of the infant in no time. > Mercury accumulates in fat. The brain being made mostly of fat > cells, most of the mercury accumulates there giving rise to the > peculiar symptoms of the autistic children. > The mercury used in vaccines is ethyl mercury. According to Indian > doctors this is an industrial toxin and is 1000 times more toxic > than the usual methyl mercury. > The aluminum present in vaccines makes the mercury, in any form, 100 > times more toxic. > As per an independent study aluminum and formaldehyde present in > vaccines can increase the toxicity of mercury, in any form, by 1000 > times. > As per a Tehelka article on Autism, if one considers the WHO limit > for mercury in water, they are receiving 50,000 times the limit. The > limits set, incidentally, are for adults and not infants. > Autism in India has emerged as the most rapidly growing epidemic > amongst children. As per a private study done by doctors in New > Delhi, from 1 in 500 it has steadily climbed to 1 in 37 today. As > per Indian doctors, "You can go to any class of any school today and > find an autistic child." > Autism is a permanent disability that affects the child physically, > mentally and emotionally. It makes the child loose social contact. > It impedes both the physical and mental growth of the child. It > destroys the brain causing severe memory and attention problems.The > majority of symptoms displayed by autistic children match symptoms > of heavy metal poisoning. > According to vaccine researcher Dr Harris Coulter, vaccines cause > children to become pervert and criminal. Majority of the school > shootings by the children in the USA have been committed by autistic > children. Vaccines can cause more harm that even the medical > community privately acknowledges. > Autistic children also suffer from severe bowel disorders. As per Dr > Andrew Wakefield, this is due to the vaccine strain live measles > virus in the MMR vaccine. Nearly all children become fully autistic > after the MMR shot. As per a recent study the MMR vaccine has an > adverse effect on the vital mucosal immune system. The very basis of > trying to prevent childhood Mumps and Measles has been questioned in > this study. > The DPT also causes children to regress giving rise to fears that > multiple live virus vaccines are an important cause behind autism. > If three live viruses can cause so much harm we can well imagine > what today’s five and seven viruses vaccines will do to children. > Before the autism epidemic, it was already well known that vaccines > have caused the cancer epidemic in today’s society. Both the Small > Pox and the Oral Polio Vaccine are made from monkey serum. This > serum has helped many cancer causing monkey viruses, 60 found so far > (SV 1 to SV60), to enter the human blood stream. As per recent > revelations these viruses continue to be in the vaccines. > It is also known that it is the use of green monkey serum in > vaccines that has led to the transfer of the Simian Immune > deficiency Virus (SIV) from monkeys into humans. The SIV and the HIV > that causes AIDS are very similar. > Not only AIDS, a blood cancer in infants (Acute Lymphoblastic > Leukemia) that is affecting children in thousands may also be > primarily due to the extremely toxic nature of vaccine ingredients > injected directly into the blood stream. > Infantile jaundice and also infantile diabetes is also > scientifically connected to the toxic vaccines. > The live polio viruses used in the Oral Polio Vaccine has caused > Vaccine Attributed Paralytic Polio in more than 1,25,000 children > (up to the year 2006) as per doctors of the Indian Medical > Association and the Jana Swasthya Abhiyan. The OPV has also let > loose a new strain of polio in both India and Africa. The OPV is > banned in the USA & European countries. > Vaccines contain serum from not only chimpanzees and monkeys but > also from cows, pigs, chickens, eggs, horses, and even human serum > and tissues extracted from aborted fetuses. > Deaths and permanent disability from vaccines is very common and > known by the medical community. They are instructed by the > Government to keep quiet and not to associate such cases with > vaccines. > Many doctors argue that diseases during childhood are due to the > body exercising its immune system. Suppressing these diseases causes > the immune system to remain undeveloped causing the various > autoimmune disorders like diabetes and arthritis that have become > epidemics today. > Vaccines suppress the natural immunity and the body does not have > natural antibodies anymore. The mothers milk therefore does not > contain natural antibodies and can no longer protect the child > against illnesses. > By stimulating humoral (blood related) immunity alone vaccines have > caused an imbalance in the whole immune set up leading to an > alarming increase in auto immune disorders. This is acknowledged by > the immunologists themselves. > In the USA vaccine adverse effects are recorded and the Government > offers compensation of millions of dollars to victims (the most > recent case in its Vaccine Court may have received upto $200 million > in damages). The Indian Government simply refuses to acknowledge > that vaccines can cause deaths and permanent disability. > It has been scientifically proven that vaccines cannot prevent > disease. Vaccines try to create humoral (blood related immunity) > whereas it has been found that immunity is developed at various > levels, humoral as well as cellular. We still do not know enough > about the human immune system and therefore should not interfere > with it. > In the USA parents are informed about vaccine after effects and > their consent has to be taken before vaccinating their children. In > India the Government assures the population through massive > advertising campaigns that vaccines are extremely safe. Parents > refusing to vaccinate are threatened by the administration. > THERE IS NO SYSTEM OF TREATMENT TO TREAT A VACCINE DAMAGED CHILD. > The parents have to run from one hospital to another. The Government > turns a blind eye and refuses to even acknowledge the vaccine > connection. Attempts by private practitioners worldwide to treat > vaccine damaged children by flushing out heavy metals and toxins > from the body have been frowned upon and discouraged. > Senior medical doctors have challenged even the vaccines recommended > by the Government of India. The BCG vaccine for tuberculosis has > been extensively tested in India as long back as 1961 and found to > be totally ineffective. The OPV is causing polio and other > neurological and intestinal disorders in tens of thousands of Indian > children. The Hep-B vaccine introduced recently is not meant for > children at all, it is a vaccine for a sexually transmitted disease > that should be targeted only at promiscuous adults. The tetanus > vaccine contains both aluminum and mercury besides the tetanus > toxoid. The doctors themselves avoid giving the DPT to their > children and relatives as per a survey amongst US health care > professionals. The measles vaccine is a vaccine that regularly > causes severe adverse effects and the health workers I have > interviewed want it out. > The pediatricians are introducing dubious vaccines in India, which > are being opposed by the doctors, politicians, and public in > American and European countries. The Rotavirus vaccine, Hib vaccine, > HPV vaccine and the various multi virus vaccines being introduced > without any kind of testing is only because the vaccine > manufacturers and the doctors administering them want to ensure a > good income from them. They care two hoots about medical ethics and > the fate of the children who will receive these vaccines. Vaccines > containing nano particles and viruses and also plant based > genetically modified vaccines are being opposed by honest doctors > worldwide. > Various independent studies, notably the Dutch and the more recent > German study, comparing vaccinated with unvaccinated children have > found that vaccinated children are prone to asthma, dermatitis, > allergies, hyperactivity etc. The death rate amongst vaccinated > children is much more than the unvaccinated ones. > Vaccines, being a mass medical program which is accepted without > question, becomes the perfect launching pad for bioterrorism. The > powerful countries can spread lethal epidemics by just polluting the > vaccines with bio warfare agents. The USA has handed over vaccine > research to a bioterrorism research unit called the BARDA which > functions under the Pentagon. A warning to this effect has been > sounded by the Vice President IAP in a letter to the DGHS. > Besides "investigating" into the small pox virus, it is reported > that a "weapons grade" bird flu vaccine has already been devised by > the Pentagon to be used as biowarfare agents. > Vaccines have also been used to ensure population control. A batch > of the tetanus vaccine has been used in many Asian countries to make > the female population sterile. This was done by introducing a > hormone that by inducing antibodies would abort the foetus when it > is formed. In India, Saheli, a NGO fighting for the rights of women > filed a PIL against this when the fact surfaced. > Mercury, a part of vaccines, is known to interfere with the > endocrine system and induce sterility in both males and females. > Through a new Public Health Bill that is being drafted the > Government of India is planning to introduce forced vaccinations and > threaten anti-vaccination activists with steep fines and jail terms. > This is obviously at the instance of foreign (read US) vaccine > giants who are shifting base to India reeling at the tremendous > opposition to vaccines in US and European countries. The Govt of > India is planning a "vaccine park" at Chennai where these vaccine > MNCs will set up base. This itself is an act of bioterrorism which > ironically the proposed bill seeks to oppose. > As per the IOM, USA, vaccine research for a probable link between > vaccines and autism should not be conducted. The Institute of > Medicine in its last report on vaccines and autism in 2004 said that > more research on the vaccine question is counterproductive: Finding > a susceptibility to this risk in some infants would call into > question the universal vaccination strategy that is a bedrock of > immunization programs and could lead to widespread rejection of > vaccines. The IOM concluded that efforts to find a link between > vaccines and autism "must be balanced against the broader benefit of > the current vaccine program for all children". What does this add up > to? Infants should be sacrificed in order to perpetuate an > unscientific procedure? > The above points are not exhaustive. For a more detailed article > please write to me at jagchat01 at yahoo.com. > > -------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > Reply to criticism of above article: > -------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > Dear Dr _____, > > Namaste. I am sorry I got your name wrong the first time. > > The title of my article is now "50 Reasons to Protect Infants from > Vaccines", as I have added 5 more points. I can add much more but > that would test the patience of the readers. An article very similar > to mine by Dr Guy Lanctot, MD, appears here; > http://educate-yourself.org/cn/vaccinationsilentgenocide14nov05..shtml > > Before I reply to your arguments I wish to emphasize a few points. > Science is about discovering the truth about the physical universe. > Truth which is measurable and verifiable. There is no bias in > science. It just states the fact for the society to interprete it > and apply it. Science is guided by ethics and morality. The findings > are utilised to serve humanity. > > Technology is about putting scientific theory into practice. As far > as I have read, it is about harnessing science to serve mankind. > There is a lot more human interference with technology than with > science. Often scientific findings are compromised to make > technology viable. This is not bad in itself if the intentions are > good and the aim laudable. > > Todays technology is dominated by the industry. Private enterprise > is about earning profits. It is known that laws can be circumvented > even legally as laws are subject to various interpretations. > Scientific institutions today are funded by private enterprises. If > a scientific institution conducts a study sponsored by private > enterpreneurs it gets paid only if the findings are favourable to > the sponsor. This is particularly true of the medical industry. > > It often happens that the data of the institution may be honestly > generated but intentionally misinterpreted to suit industry needs. > We know that the Lancet, a premier medical journal, has conceded > that it has no way to verify the research articles published in it. > This is also true of other journals. It is up to each individual > scientist to be ethical so that science prevails over industry > profitability. > > I will point out to the issue of mercury in vaccines. The vaccine > decontaminant Thiomersal is 49.56% ethylmercury by weight. > Ethylmercury is an industrial toxin whose use is fraught with great > dangers. The bottles of Thiomersal have the skull and dagger mark on > them. Thiomersal has been pushed out of many a medical product > because of its severe toxicity. Products using Thiomersal have been > recalled from the market. Mercury in its any form is known to be > dangerous. A study by the Americam Academy of Pediatricians has > clearly stated that mercury is particularly dangerous for the > pregnant mother and the infant. > > However study after study in the USA reveals that Thiomersal is > safe. The latest study hopes to "put at rest all doubts". The > doctors who are sympathetic to my cause and medical scientists scoff > at such studies. I am personally aware of meetings in the Health > Ministry that have discussed this very sensitive issue. Even then > mercury will not be shifted out of vaccines. Even "mercury free" > vaccines contain this heavy metal. > http://www.hapihealth.com/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=19&Itemid=27 > This is because, as intimated to me officially by the Govt of India, > mercury is essential to "make vaccines safe". Without this > decontaminant the vaccines would cause "more harm". > > I wish to also define this "harm". Vaccines consists of bacteria and > viruses that are cultured in animal tissues and serum. This is the > prime source of contamination. You talk about "pure vaccines". There > is no such thing as a pure vaccine, the term is an oxymoron. There > have been attempts to replace Thiomersal by 2Phenoxyethelene, > another very dangerous neurotoxin. But the results, as informed to > me, are "not encouraging". I have with me the PPT presentation that > was used by a very senion health ministry official that details all > this. I cannot share it with you. > > So mercury continues to be pumped into infants. Along with that goes > live and genetically modified bacteria and viruses, contaminated > serum, heavy metals like mercury and aluminum, carcinogens like > formaldehyde and monosodium glutamate, antibiotics that ought not to > be injected without skin prick tests and God alone knows what else. > > The other aspect of this "harm" is the effect on the financial > health of vaccine manufacturers and even the government. The > manufacturers would be inundated with court cases if by chance an > "official study" concedes that Thiomersal can cause harm. As it is, > in the US itself, around 8000 cases are pending against the > industry. The first case has been decided upon and has gone in > favour of the complainant setting back the US Govt by several > hundred million dollars, as assumed by activists as the amount of > compensation has not been revealed. In a case where the amount was > revealed the compensation was seventy eight million dollars. No > wonder both the government and the industry are jittery. The > industry has appealed to the government to shut down operations. The > US Govt's response has been to grant immunity to vaccine > manufacturers, put up a special "vaccine court" and put a surcharge > of $60 per vaccine to set up a vaccine damage compensation fund. > > In India, the government is in no position to even have "mercury > free" vaccines. The process of removing mercury from the end product > (mercury is used in the process) will increase the cost of vaccine 4 > to 5 times. The government cannot afford this. > > The very fact that "scientific studies" repeatedly stress that the > presence of mercury, aluminum, squalene and other toxic ingredients > in vaccines are "safe" to be injected into infants makes me wary of > such studies in the official domain. > > Thus I prefer to state the facts to people without depending upon > distorted studies. The parents need to have all the information they > have before they decide to vaccinate. That vaccines are dangerous is > openly conceded and even declared in writing by the biotechnology > department of the Govt of India, Ministry of Science and Technology, > who promise that genetically engineered and plant based vaccines > would relieve the burden on children who are now injected with > animal serum, heavy metals and other toxins. What they don't say > that the health effects of genetically engineered vaccines will also > never be revealed. > > Regarding the points raised by you I have already sent a detailed > article which will answer many of your questions. I have also sent > you a link which clearly shows the disease graphs based upon US Govt > data and the fact that vaccines have been introduced at the fag end. > http://www.vaccinationdebate.com/web1..html > http://www.vaccineriskawareness.com/Did-Vaccines-Really-Halt-Killer-Diseases- > The government announcement in the Hindu has found mention in an > article in the Indian Journal of Pediatrics by Dr Jacob Puliyel who > is a very senior IMA member and the Co Chairman of the IMA > immunisation committee. I have mentioned the name of the article in > the article sent to you. The IAP, Orissa, instructions appeared only > on print and not on the net (like the TOI article) and I will send > it to you separately. > > I must also mention that scarlet fever and the plague have come and > gone without vaccines "eradicating" them. > > Your contention about empirical evidence should also be applied to > the fact that illnesses amongst children have shot through the roof > after vaccines have been introduced. Why should this evidence be > ignored? The nature of vaccine ingredients and the harm they cause > can be found here; > http://www.vaccination.inoz.com/ingredie.html > > Regarding vaccine safety and testing, a CDC website states, "No > matter how extensive the testing, it is impossible to allow > completely for the infinite variation among individuals, their > immune systems, and their reactions to the introduction of new > substances into their bodies. Serious systemic reactions to vaccines > can occur, although they are very rare.." However such reactions are > not rare as revealed by the growing epidemic of diseases amongst > children who are clearly showing signs and symptoms of the > ingredients they are being injected with. > > Vaccines are never tested against a plain placebo. The usual > procedure is to either test it against a comparable vaccine or a > diluted version of the same vaccine. This newsreport will educate you; > http://www..healthguidance.org/entry/1079/1/How-Are-Vaccines- > Tested.html > > In India vaccines and drugs have been tested without even the > participant's knowledge. A case in North India revealed that an > experimental vaccine was tested on pregnant women. This was widely > reported by the press. Such trials are carried out in other > countries too; > http://www.upi.com/Science_News/2008/07/03/Homeless_die_in_Poland_of_bird-flu_vaccine/UPI-39641215100179/ > > Vaccine tests leave a lot to be desired. An unbiased report, the > full version of which has been pulled out of the net, points out, as > salient points: > " How vaccines are tested - typically a new vaccine is tested on > 10,000 - 20,000 people before the FDA approves it, is this enough to > reliably detect rare complications?... Two safety lapses - in two > recent cases, vaccine-safety agencies were slow to act on emerging > problems... The antivaccine argument - arguments and suppositions of > antivaccine activists... Compensating the injured - the federal > Vaccine Injury Compensation Program was created in 1988, funded by a > small tax on every lot of vaccine, it is an insurance plan against > childhood-vaccine injuries..." > > This study points out that vaccines are a matter of "trust". > http://www.comminit.com/en/node/181126/292 > > Doctors are instructed not to report vaccine damage. This was > publicly admitted by the IMA when it blew the whistle on the OPV and > the cases of paralysis caused by it. The government had instructed > physicians not to report damage. > > Personally I would request you to pose as a ordinary non medical > person and take a vaccine damaged child to a pediatrician. You will > yourself realise how the system works. I have taken many such > children to doctors and have received open threats. A doctor, Dr > P... M...., who is a office bearer of the Indian Academy of > Pediatricians openly challenged me that, "no doctor will "dare" > certify that this child is vaccine damaged." That is the system for > you. In case of the OPV the IMA has pointed out that the vaccine > surveillance system reports only up to 5% of cases. > > There are no official studies comparing vaccinated versus non > vaccinated children. Activists have all along been shouting for such > studies. The findings of independent studies can be found here; > http://www.whale.to/a/children1.html > http://www.ageofautism.com/2008/03/oh-just-2-mor-1.html > http://www.generationrescue.org/survey.html > http://www.vaccination.inoz.com/unvaccinated.html > http://www.whale.to/vaccine/unvax.html > > For presence of monkey viruses in vaccines I will cite an official > study so that you will be at ease. This article states that SV 40 is > not cancerous and yet details all the steps that are taken to keep > vaccines SV40 free (just as the US Govt repeatedly says that > Thiomersal is extremely safe and yet is trying to reduce it in > American vaccines). However in practical circumstances such tests > are very difficult to carry out. A vaccine whistleblower has pointed > out that vaccine batches are often monitored "visually". Cases of > contamination being found is very regular in the vaccine industry. > It has happened with the OPV in India also. Vaccine testing is > indeed a "matter of trust". > http://www.emea.europa.eu/pdfs/human/bwp/141202en.pdf > > This official very scientific study borders between "no incidence" > and "probably". Interestingly it tries to rationalise the presence > of the SV40 in Indians to "man-monkey" physical exposure. Have we > ALL been bitten by monkey's? Then there is also the case of "false > tests". "We say it is not there so it SHOULD NOT be there". Typical > scientific conclusions in today's profit oriented world. > http://www.cancer.gov/cancertopics/factsheet/simian-virs-40 > > This scientific study says the whole issue needs further probe > http://www.nature.com/onc/journal/v23/n38/full/1207877a.html > > There is a SV40 foundation that studies this simian virus > http://www.sv40foundation.org/ > > Regarding the Simian Immunodeficiency Virus (SIV), this PubMed study > reveals the need to study this virus to develop a vaccine for AIDS. > So while seeking to develop a highly profitable vaccine in the > market we recognise the dangers from SIV but we say that the SIV > delivered to humans via the small pox vaccine and the OPV does not > have any relation to AIDS. Typical scientific thinking again. > http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/15731236 > > I will strongly object to your view that vaccines strengthen > immunity. Vaccines have nothing to do with stregthening immunity. A > strong immunity would reject the invasion by way of vaccines. Hence > adjuvants are used to "put the immune system on hold" so that the > body is forced to accept the intruder. You will find allergies in > all vaccinated children. This very fact reveals that the vaccines > severely affect the immune system. How the vaccines affect the > immune system is described here by Dr Rebecca Carley, a medico legal > expert on vaccines. Her article was deleted from the WHO website, > where it once appeared; > http://www.wnho.net/response_to_cdc_health_research_guide.htm > > This article was actually here in the CDC website before it was > pulled out; > http://www.rsvpbook.com/custom_pages/50942/popup_chapter.php > > Regarding 30 vaccine "shots" that I have mentioned (not 30 > vaccines), the IAP recommends 24 shots without the consultation of > parents and 5 vaccines (Hep A, Varicella, Pneumococcal, Meningitis, > Japanese Encephalitis) (6 shots I think or maybe more) after > consulting. Thus the figure of 30 shots is correct, the actual may > be more. All these vaccines are being routinely given to children by > private practitioners. > > I will object that you accuse me of lying and misleading the public. > To the contrary I am trying to educate parents about the dangers > from vaccines, a fact that is being increasingly admitted by even > pediatricians. Their first reaction has been not to vaccinate their > own children and relatives. There are many pediatricians today who > are not vaccinating beyond the IPV as far as their own children and > relatives are concerned. I would appeal to them to extend this > facility to their patients also, infants who have no voice to > protest, but they do protest by persistently crying and trying to > make it known that they do not wish to be vaccinated. > > And finally here is a link to pictures of vaccine damaged children, > at the end. These are only from the small pox vaccine. I must > mention that autistic children are severely damaged and do not show > any external damage. Thus most vaccine damage will be permanent and > internal. Diseases can indeed disfigure children but most of the > damage occurs because of trying to meddle with eruptive acute > disease. I remember my brother being severely affected by measles > and recovering normally under homeopathic treatment. > > If I have left anything out kindly let me know. > > I am marking a copy to some senior doctors of India, USA and Canada. > They may kindly correct me if I have stated anything wrong here. > > Regards, > Jagannath. > From shuddha at sarai.net Sat Jun 20 02:28:18 2009 From: shuddha at sarai.net (Shuddhabrata Sengupta) Date: Sat, 20 Jun 2009 02:28:18 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Shahidul Alam detained by Indian Border Security Force In-Reply-To: <990757.89093.qm@web53602.mail.re2.yahoo.com> References: <990757.89093.qm@web53602.mail.re2.yahoo.com> Message-ID: Dear Rahul, I have always felt quite at home in the world, regardless of whether I was on the terrace of my Old Rajendra Nagar house in New Delhi, which once housed refugees from West Pakistan before it housed my migrant parents and me (where I live), or I was on hilltop in Damascus, or in a ruined factory in Warsaw, or on the border between East and West Jerusalem. I do not sense a feeling of being 'not at home' when I am not in my own country, and there are many places in my own country, where I do not feel quite as home as I would have liked to, for instance in the wide, paranoiac, expansive and empty boulevards of Lutyens Delhi. In Delhi, take me to Akbar Road, and I will feel a foreigner (even a bit of an illegal migrant), leave me in Karol Bagh, Chitli Qabar, Mehrauli, Khan Market or Jungpura, and I will do just fine. Home, after all, is where the heart is. And my heart is not in the Lutyens Bungalow Zone of New Delhi. So I don't quite understand the analogy of locked homes and fenced countries. After all, we lock our homes, primarily against the possible attacks of our own fellow citizens. So, since we lock our homes against our own fellow citizens, logically, then, following your line of thinking, should we not turn the whole country into one vast prison, where everyone watches out for the danger that is everybody else.We don't even have to look as far as the next Bangladeshi. Or, as my friends and I had reason to say in another context, 'Is the outer wall of the detention centre, the inner wall of the city?" regards, Shuddha On 19-Jun-09, at 9:39 PM, Rahul Asthana wrote: > > Dear Anupam, > Your question is a straw man.I am not drawing any analogy between > nation and home.My question to Shuddha is based upon his statement > about artificial borders etc. > > Thanks > Rahul > Shuddhabrata Sengupta The Sarai Programme at CSDS Raqs Media Collective shuddha at sarai.net www.sarai.net www.raqsmediacollective.net From shuddha at sarai.net Sat Jun 20 02:29:19 2009 From: shuddha at sarai.net (Shuddhabrata Sengupta) Date: Sat, 20 Jun 2009 02:29:19 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Global Electronic Sit-in In Solidarity with Iranians Protesting against the Rigged 2009 Presidential Elections References: Message-ID: <405E3E52-48CE-4815-9EB2-47305C0AB558@sarai.net> > > -- please forward widely -- > > Global Electronic Sit-in In Solidarity with Iranians Protesting > against the Rigged 2009 Presidential Elections - 18June2009 - ongoing > until further notice > > http://iran2009election.opinionware.net/ > > Please join us in this urgent action in solidarity with the large > numbers of Iranian people who have been taking to the streets since > June 13, 2009 to claim their right to free and fair elections. This > electronic sit-in targets the websites of the Guardian Council, the > Interior Ministry, the Presidency of Iran, Ali Khamenei, > Hashemi-Rafsanjani, Ahmadinejad and the Islamic Republic of Iran > Broadcasting. > > Our demands: > > * Ahmadinejad must resign immediately. > * All political prisoners, including all of the people who have been > arrested on political charges in the past several days must be > immediately released. > * A new and independently monitored election must be held. > * The list of presidential candidates must be open and free of > interference by the Guardian Council. > > This action is NOT in support of Mir Hossein Mousavi or other > presidential candidates in the 12 June 2009 election. The race for > presidential candidacy was itself fundamentally flawed. The Guardian > Council, a clerical body overseeing the governance of Iran, rejected > 90% of eligible candidates the right to run in the election, leaving > only 4 candidates on the list, all of whom are connected to one or > other of the factions of the ruling theocracy and should equally be > held accountable for the atrocities committed against Iranians over > the past 30 years and for the countless social and economic ills that > are inflicting the country. > > This action is in solidarity with hundreds of thousands of Iranians > from diverse social groups and classes who, since Saturday, 13 June > 2009, have been defying the official ban on mass rally and taken to > the streets in many cities across Iran to voice their anger at seeing > their right as citizens to have their votes counted trampled upon in > a rigged election. > > Sirens of Solidarity > > http://iran2009election.opinionware.net/ > Shuddhabrata Sengupta The Sarai Programme at CSDS Raqs Media Collective shuddha at sarai.net www.sarai.net www.raqsmediacollective.net From rakesh.rnbdj at gmail.com Sat Jun 20 09:17:17 2009 From: rakesh.rnbdj at gmail.com (Rakesh Iyer) Date: Sat, 20 Jun 2009 09:17:17 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Shahidul Alam detained by Indian Border Security Force In-Reply-To: <49062404-1752-42E9-B379-97423EED3173@sarai.net> References: <308286.46350.qm@web39104.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <49062404-1752-42E9-B379-97423EED3173@sarai.net> Message-ID: Dear Shuddha First things first. Reading about encroachments on a daily basis by people for living or for occupational purposes, I am not naive or romantic to think that people follow laws. In fact, my belief is that in each nation-state, or state-nation, people always want to break the law, and it's the fear that the law may catch them, which makes them follow the law. Second. Opening the borders for free movement of goods and people is indeed a great idea. But what about the intentions of the Pakistani and the Indian elite? We have a Pakistani elite (headed by the Army there), whose basic intention is 'to bleed India with a thousand cuts', and therefore some way or the other, terror attacks are taking place across the nation. One may say that there is no proof of the fact that Pakistan is behind attacks (even say 26/11), but my argument is simply this: how come when diplomatic pressure was applied after 26/11, no terror attack has taken place in India? Before that, terror attacks were common every 2-3 months in one or the other part of the country. And in 2004-05 there were hardly any terror attacks. It's October 2005 blasts in Delhi which started this trend, and ironically this is the time when the peace process between India and Pakistan seemed to have got stuck. How come relations with Pakistan and timing of terror attacks are coincidental. Equally, I would not be surprised if the Indian elite indulges in the same game (through RAW and other agencies), in the NWFP and other areas of Pakistan. After all, the idea may be that internal troubles in Pakistan force it to think about its' own existence rather than concentrating on its' eastern neighbour. And who can forget that under Indira Gandhi we did send spies to Pakistan. The only thing may be that RAW may have declared it doesn't send spies, when it may actually do so. With this kind of a situation, opening the borders without checks and balances is going to lead to disaster. And plus, you need the people on both sides of the border backing it. Now the BPL population in India is more concerned with its livelihood demands, so also the BPL population in Pakistan. So are most of the people there, except the elites. And the elites turn the way media and propaganda runs. So that's the end of that move. Directly asking for radical moves is not going to give us anything. This is something the British learnt in getting through trade concessions in India and China before establishing their supremacy in both countries for getting what they wanted. This is something the experiences of Gandhi tell us. And this is equally something Obama is trying, in my perception. And that's why, Shuddha jee, I feel you are being romantic. We don't want guns from either side to go across to the other, we want butter. Therefore, to begin with, what we need to do is to learn from Indo-China relationship. This means that we first allow movement of goods (unfortunately, these have to be checked), to an extent where trade is so much that interdependence forces both the elites to shelve their current nefarious plans for once and for all. Secondly, we do require the movement of people, so let us have bus services and train services between the two countries. And may be it's now time that at least in Punjab (if not in Kashmir), let us go for an border (with checks again) and allowing people to visit each other. Equally let the two sides of Kashmiris visit each other through bus services. What's the harm in that? For the other borders like Indo-Bangla (Bangladesh) border too, we need to go on a state to state case, and to reach the final step of open border, we must take steps or a leap depending on the situation. For example, with Bhutan itself, why not start this at least? Different borders require different levels to begin with, but the final goal is same. The only thing is that the steps have to be tweaked to reach that goal. Otherwise, we may never begin at all. And we need to do this. And that is why I feel we need to pressurize the Indian state (being Indian citizens), to do this. I do believe that to go to places you have mentioned in your other mail, you would have secured a passport and a visa, and that you would have done as an Indian citizen. So also, many facilities you would be accruing as an Indian citizen in the nation. Therefore, whether we like it or not, we are Indian citizens (unfortunately or fortunately is one's own way of thinking about this). What we do need to do, is to think beyond our own state and look at human beings as one entity, not as Indians, Americans or Brazilians and thus separate entities. (These are just identities on which people must not be divided). And thus, we need to look at the final goal as this, but start from rudimentary steps. Remember, we have to take all with us, for that is what we refer to as 'inclusive development'. Otherwise, we can also shout and those opposing us can also shout, and we will never move forward. Regards Rakesh From c.anupam at gmail.com Sat Jun 20 10:22:04 2009 From: c.anupam at gmail.com (anupam chakravartty) Date: Sat, 20 Jun 2009 10:22:04 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Shahidul Alam detained by Indian Border Security Force In-Reply-To: References: <308286.46350.qm@web39104.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <49062404-1752-42E9-B379-97423EED3173@sarai.net> Message-ID: <341380d00906192152p44a48d78tbc172e290858f44f@mail.gmail.com> Dear Rahul, "Do you think that homes should be locked? Do you think that people should be allowed unrestricted entry to other peoples homes at all times?" what were you referring to when you posed this question to shuddha and made it publicly available to other readers on this list? a burglary in your house? in that case i think i misread this whole thread to be borders and a photographer, as many of the readers pointed out about the incident being an incursion and other such things. however, we were talking about shahidul alam. so if its a straw man, which is an informal fallacy about misrepresentation of opponent's argument then your are committing the fallacy of complex question when you posed the above question. i mean anyone would say a "no" to "Do you think that people should be allowed unrestricted entry to other peoples homes at all times?". But if this same question is used to pose, what some may call the larger debate, "Do you think foreigners should be allowed unrestricted entry to other nation states?" you may get a very different opinion. i personally have a problem with such questions. thanks anupam On 6/20/09, Rakesh Iyer wrote: > Dear Shuddha > > First things first. Reading about encroachments on a daily basis by people > for living or for occupational purposes, I am not naive or romantic to > think > that people follow laws. In fact, my belief is that in each nation-state, > or > state-nation, people always want to break the law, and it's the fear that > the law may catch them, which makes them follow the law. > > Second. Opening the borders for free movement of goods and people is indeed > a great idea. But what about the intentions of the Pakistani and the Indian > elite? We have a Pakistani elite (headed by the Army there), whose basic > intention is 'to bleed India with a thousand cuts', and therefore some way > or the other, terror attacks are taking place across the nation. One may > say > that there is no proof of the fact that Pakistan is behind attacks (even > say > 26/11), but my argument is simply this: how come when diplomatic pressure > was applied after 26/11, no terror attack has taken place in India? > > Before that, terror attacks were common every 2-3 months in one or the > other > part of the country. And in 2004-05 there were hardly any terror attacks. > It's October 2005 blasts in Delhi which started this trend, and ironically > this is the time when the peace process between India and Pakistan seemed > to > have got stuck. How come relations with Pakistan and timing of terror > attacks are coincidental. > > Equally, I would not be surprised if the Indian elite indulges in the same > game (through RAW and other agencies), in the NWFP and other areas of > Pakistan. After all, the idea may be that internal troubles in Pakistan > force it to think about its' own existence rather than concentrating on > its' > eastern neighbour. And who can forget that under Indira Gandhi we did send > spies to Pakistan. The only thing may be that RAW may have declared it > doesn't send spies, when it may actually do so. > > With this kind of a situation, opening the borders without checks and > balances is going to lead to disaster. And plus, you need the people on > both > sides of the border backing it. Now the BPL population in India is more > concerned with its livelihood demands, so also the BPL population in > Pakistan. So are most of the people there, except the elites. And the > elites > turn the way media and propaganda runs. So that's the end of that move. > > Directly asking for radical moves is not going to give us anything. This is > something the British learnt in getting through trade concessions in India > and China before establishing their supremacy in both countries for getting > what they wanted. This is something the experiences of Gandhi tell us. And > this is equally something Obama is trying, in my perception. And that's > why, > Shuddha jee, I feel you are being romantic. > > We don't want guns from either side to go across to the other, we want > butter. Therefore, to begin with, what we need to do is to learn from > Indo-China relationship. This means that we first allow movement of goods > (unfortunately, these have to be checked), to an extent where trade is so > much that interdependence forces both the elites to shelve their current > nefarious plans for once and for all. Secondly, we do require the movement > of people, so let us have bus services and train services between the two > countries. > > And may be it's now time that at least in Punjab (if not in Kashmir), let > us > go for an border (with checks again) and allowing people to visit each > other. Equally let the two sides of Kashmiris visit each other through bus > services. What's the harm in that? > > For the other borders like Indo-Bangla (Bangladesh) border too, we need to > go on a state to state case, and to reach the final step of open border, we > must take steps or a leap depending on the situation. For example, with > Bhutan itself, why not start this at least? > > Different borders require different levels to begin with, but the final > goal > is same. The only thing is that the steps have to be tweaked to reach that > goal. Otherwise, we may never begin at all. And we need to do this. And > that > is why I feel we need to pressurize the Indian state (being Indian > citizens), to do this. I do believe that to go to places you have mentioned > in your other mail, you would have secured a passport and a visa, and that > you would have done as an Indian citizen. So also, many facilities you > would > be accruing as an Indian citizen in the nation. > > Therefore, whether we like it or not, we are Indian citizens (unfortunately > or fortunately is one's own way of thinking about this). What we do need to > do, is to think beyond our own state and look at human beings as one > entity, > not as Indians, Americans or Brazilians and thus separate entities. (These > are just identities on which people must not be divided). And thus, we need > to look at the final goal as this, but start from rudimentary steps. > Remember, we have to take all with us, for that is what we refer to as > 'inclusive development'. Otherwise, we can also shout and those opposing us > can also shout, and we will never move forward. > > Regards > > Rakesh > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > subscribe in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> From rakesh.rnbdj at gmail.com Sat Jun 20 13:29:04 2009 From: rakesh.rnbdj at gmail.com (Rakesh Iyer) Date: Sat, 20 Jun 2009 13:29:04 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Is Indian democracy turning into a farce now? Message-ID: Dear all This is an article from 'The Hindu' which I got, and liked very much. In it lies a message for us as well as for the Indian democracy. May be also something for the Bollywood brigade which was encouraging all of us to go out and vote. May be it's time we do understand that the meaning of democracy is not just elections, which is what all of us indirectly or directly have reduced to. Hope you enjoy the article. And I do hope others will comment on this, as they do on identity based concerns. Regards Rakesh* The age of the aam crorepati - P.Sainath * * If you are worth Rs. 50 million or more, you are 75 times more likely to win an election to the Lok Sabha than if you are worth under Rs. 1 million. * “I think almost everyone will grant that if candidates for the United States Senate were required to possess ten million dollars, and for the House one million, the year-in-year-out level of conservatism of those two bodies might be expected to rise sharply. We could still be said to have a freely elected Congress. Anybody with ten million dollars (or one, if he tailored his ambition to fit his means) would be free to try to get himself nominated, and the rest of us would be free to vote for our favourite millionaire or even to abstain from voting.” — A.J. Liebling, *The Wayward Pressman*, 1947 Liebling also warned in the 1960s that the business models of newspapers would one day prove their undoing. A prophecy that rings true today for the giants of that industry in his own country. Yes, you’ve seen his words on voting in these columns before. But the 2009 poll results have made him doubly relevant. “Voting for our favourite millionaire” comes alive with the 15th Lok Sabha. Its 543 MPs are worth close to Rs. 28 billion. (Of which 64 Union Cabinet members from the Lok Sabha account for Rs. 5 billion). And the links between wealth and winning elections are firmer than ever before. If you are worth over Rs. 50 million, you are 75 times more likely to win an election to the Lok Sabha than if you are worth under Rs. 1 million. At least, in the case of the 2009 polls. (Some 23 of 64 Cabinet Ministers whose asset worth is in the public domain fall into this Rs. 50 million-plus category. Providing it stability of sorts, I guess. In the entire Cabinet, only one falls into the less-than-Rs.1 million group.) Another 29 members of the Cabinet fall in the Rs. 5 million-Rs. 50 million category. If you are in this bracket, your chances of winning aren’t as great as the 50 million-plus, or Platinum Tier, elite. However, you are still 43 times more likely to win than those with less than Rs. 1 million in assets (that is, almost the whole of India’s population). The remaining Ministers, in case you were losing sleep over their condition, fall into the Rs. 1 million-Rs. 5 million club, the Cabinet equivalent of BPL. However, there are five years in which to remedy this situation and alleviate the misery of this group. These are just a few of the insights brought to us by an interim report of National Election Watch on the 2009 polls. NEW is a coalition of over 1200 civil society groups working across the country. Their “Analysis of MPs of the 15th Lok Sabha (2009)” makes great reading and is the product of fine research and much hard work. There were 3,437 candidates in the polls with assets of less than Rs.1 million, says the report. Of these, just 15 (0.44 per cent) made it past the post. But your chances soar with your assets. Of the 1,785 candidates in the Rs. 1 million-Rs. 5 million group, 116 (6 per cent) won. This win-ratio goes up to 19 per cent of candidates for the Rs. 5 million-Rs. 50 million segment. And of 322 candidates in the Rs. 50 million-plus or platinum tier, 106 (33 per cent) romped home. The higher you climb the ladder of lucre, the better your chances. That is obvious. But what is striking is how bleak things are for non-millionaires. Even a modest improvement in your wealth helps. Say, you move from the below Rs. 1 million group to the Rs.1-5 million group — your chances immediately improve at a higher rate than your wealth. (Of course, that works only if you are already close to the Rs. 1 million mark.) So it’s not just that wealth has some impact on election outcomes — it influences them heavily and disproportionately as you go up the scale. All of a piece with a society that only last year had 53 dollar billionaires (pre-meltdown). One that still has 836 million human beings who “get by” on less than Rs. 20 a day. Which ranks 66th amongst 88 nations on the Global Hunger Index (just one notch above Zimbabwe). Which has plummeted to rank 132 in the United Nations Human Development Index (one slot below Bhutan) as our billionaire count has risen. That wallows below Bolivia, Botswana, the Republic of the Congo and the Occupied Territories of Palestine in the HDI rankings. And never mind being worth billions — 60 per cent of adult rural Indians simply do not have bank accounts. There is little question that big bucks help in our polls. The number of ‘crorepatis’ in the present Lok Sabha is up 98 per cent as compared to 2004. Then there were 154, now there are 306 — almost double. A healthy growth rate. And there are grounds for optimism that the BPL group in the Cabinet can uplift itself speedily. That’s happened to both MPs and candidates in some of the most troubled parts of the country. The net worth of candidates in Vidarbha rose by over 160 per cent between 2004 and 2009. In the Wardha district of that region alone, the net worth of candidates rose by 1,157 per cent between 2004 and 2009. (Ananth Krishnan, *The Hindu*, April 14, 2009). The Kalahandi-Bolangir-Koraput region had seven ‘crorepati’ candidates. But back to the NEW report. Of the 306 crorepatis in the new Lok Sabha, 141, almost half, belong to the party of the *aam aadmi*, the Congress. The BJP lotus is a withering second, with 58. The SP, the BSP and the DMK follow with 14, 13 and 12 multi-millionaires. The Shiv Sena doesn’t do too badly with nine and the NCP with seven. In the case of these two parties, it means that almost 80 per cent of their elected MPs are ‘crorepatis.’ The Left bloc fares poorly, scoring just one from among its 24 MPs. The one-in-three success rate of the Rs.50 million-plus candidates doesn’t tell the whole story, though. Often, they have defeated others of their own league. Who might well have fared better against candidates of lower asset castes. We are also faithful to our role model: the United States, where Liebling’s prophecy has worked with a vengeance for decades. One pre-meltdown piece in * www.opensecrets.org * put it neatly last year. “As Americans worry about their own finances, their elected representatives in Washington — with a collective net worth of $3.6 billion [roughly Rs. 172 billion] — are mostly in good shape to withstand a recession.” Before the meltdown rained on their parade, it says, members of Congress, “saw their net worths soar 84 per cent from 2004 to 2006, on average.” It points out that while U.S. Senators had “a median net worth of approximately $1.7 million in 2006,” only about “1 per cent of all American adults had a net worth greater than $1 million around the same time.” So the collective net worth of elected representatives in Washington is Rs.172 billion and that of our own Rs. 28 billion. Okay, we’re outclassed. But not to feel too bad about it. For one thing, the U.S. figure appears to include both the Senate and the House of Representatives. Ours covers only the Lok Sabha. What’s more, our team seems to clock a better rate of growth. And the gap is narrowing. The good rate of growth for second or third-term MPs also holds another lesson. Not only is it easier to get elected if you have money, it is easier to make money if you get elected In both countries, money from big corporations helps clinch poll victories. Corporate lobbies like Big Oil have long “owned” Senators and Congressmen. In India, this trend has grown even in terms of individual corporate chiefs. In the U.S., corporate power has been on shameless display during the financial bailouts. The AIGs, The Goldman Sachs *et al* unsheathed their massive clout to grab public money. In India, that power was visible to the naked eye in the run-up to last year’s trust vote in Parliament. One party even dumped a sworn political stand of eight decades under that influence. In the NEW report, the wealthiest group of those elected falls into the Rs. 50 million-plus category. The ranking within this is intriguing. The average worth of a Lok Sabha MP is Rs. 51 million. But there are 74 MPs with serious criminal charges against them whose wealth averages Rs. 60 million. That is, they are well entrenched in Parliament’s Platinum tier. And the average wealth of a Cabinet Minister is around Rs. 75 million. Ah well, it’s a hard climb to the top. * * Printer friendly page Send this article to Friends by E-Mail From kshmendra2005 at yahoo.com Sat Jun 20 13:57:53 2009 From: kshmendra2005 at yahoo.com (Kshmendra Kaul) Date: Sat, 20 Jun 2009 01:27:53 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Reader-list] Fwd: Are vaccines helping or hurting our children? Message-ID: <718439.3806.qm@web57203.mail.re3.yahoo.com> Dear Jeebesh   Thanks for forwarding this. I am numbed.   If even a small percentage of the Health related fears and adverse repercussion expressed about  Mass Immunisation are correct, this should be a matter of great concern to everyone. Terrorising prospects of how children get affected all the way into their adult life.   Kshmendra     --- On Sat, 6/20/09, Jeebesh wrote: From: Jeebesh Subject: [Reader-list] Fwd: Are vaccines helping or hurting our children? To: "sarai list" Date: Saturday, June 20, 2009, 2:13 AM Begin forwarded message: > From: Jagannath Chatterjee > Date: 17 June 2009 7:04:58 PM GMT+05:30 > > 50 Reasons to Protect Infants from Vaccines: > > - Jagannath Chatterjee > > > Note: I have been corresponding with the Union Health Minister and  > his department on this subject since 2006. Neither the Minister nor  > the Ministry have any answer to these points.. Even when Dr Abdul  > Kalam, then President, raised the subject based on my inputs there  > was no sincere attempt to clarify the position. I have since then  > continuously educated the doctors on the subject. I have also  > written to the current President, Vice President, PM, Sonia, the  > NHRC, NCPCR, CM's of various states, MP's of various political  > parties and all the medical institutions I can think of. I have also  > written to the WHO, GAVI, UNICEF & PATH, premier institutions that  > promote this highly controversial medical intervention . You will  > agree that there should be a public debate on vaccines, otherwise  > the unfortunate children do not stand a chance. > > > > There is no scientific study to determine whether vaccines have  > really prevented diseases. Rather disease graphs show vaccines have  > been introduced at the fag end of epidemics when the disease was  > already in its last stages. In case of Small Pox the vaccine  > actually caused a great spurt in the incidence of disease  before  > public outcry led to its withdrawal. > There are no long-term studies on vaccine safety. Very short-term    > tests are carried out where the vaccinated subjects are checked  > against another group who are given another vaccine. Technically the  > tests should be carried out against a non-vaccinated group. No one  > really knows what protocols are followed at such industry-sponsored  > trials. > There has never been any official attempt to compare a vaccinated  > population against a non vaccinated population to know what vaccines  > are doing to the children and the society. Independent private  > studies (Dutch & German) have revealed that vaccinated children  > suffer much more than their un-vaccinated counterparts. > The child receives not one but many vaccines. There are no tests to  > determine the effects of multiple vaccines. > There is no scientific basis for vaccinating infants. As per senior  > doctors quoted by the Times of India, "Children suffer from less  > that 2% of vaccine preventable illnesses but 98% of the vaccines are  > targeted towards them." The vaccine pioneers who have recommended  > abundant caution before vaccinating the population have never  > advocated mass vaccinations. > Children are vaccinated simply because parents can be frightened to  > forcefully vaccinate their children. Vaccinating infants is the most  > profitable business both for the manufacturers as well as the doctors. > Infants, who are advised ONLY mothers milk till the age of six  > months and beyond because their fragile system will not tolerate  > anything else are given 30 extremely toxic vaccine shots, including  > booster doses, an act that defies both logic and science. > The Government of India has come out with a quarter page  > advertisement in The Hindu warning parents not to vaccinate beyond  > the Government approved vaccines. Parents have been advised against  > vaccinating in private clinics and hospitals. > The Orissa Chapter of the Indian Association of Pediatricians has  > admitted in a letter to the CM, Orissa, that private clinics and  > hospitals are ill equipped to store vaccines and warned parents not  > to vaccinate upon the advise of private practitioners and hospitals. > ALL THE VACCINE INGREDIENTS ARE EXTREMELY TOXIC IN NATURE. > Vaccines contain heavy metals, cancer causing substances, toxic  > chemicals, live and genetically modified viruses, contaminated serum  > containing animal viruses and foreign genetic material, extremely  > toxic de-contaminants and adjuvants, untested antibiotics, none of  > which can be injected without causing any harm. > The mercury, aluminum and live viruses in vaccines may be behind the  > huge epidemic of autism (1 in 10 worldwide as per doctors in the  > USA, 1 in 37 as per a private study by doctors in New Delhi), a fact  > that (vaccines cause autism) has been admitted by the US Vaccine  > Court. > The CDC of USA, the vaccine watchdog, has publicly admitted that its  > much-publicized 2003 study denying any link between vaccines and  > autism, is flawed. The Chief of CDC Dr Gerberding has confessed to  > the media (CNN) that vaccines can cause "autism like symptoms". The  > Autism epidemic is found only in those countries that have allowed  > mass vaccinations. > In the year 1999, the US Government instructed vaccine manufacturers  > to remove mercury from vaccines "with immediate effect". But mercury  > still remains a part of many vaccines. The vaccines with mercury  > were never recalled and were given to children up to the year 2006.  > "Mercury free" vaccines contain 0.05mcg of mercury, enough to  > permanently damage a infant. As per an American Academy of  > Pediatricians study: "Mercury in all of its forms is toxic to the  > fetus and children and efforts should be made to reduce exposure to  > the extent possible to pregnant women and children as well as the  > general population." > IN INDIA NO ATTEMPT HAS BEEN MADE TO ENSURE THAT MERCURY AND OTHER  > HEAVY METALS ARE REMOVED FROM VACCINES SIMPLY BECAUSE IT WOULD MAKE  > VACCINES COSTLIER. > In a reply to then President Sri Abdul Kalam, the Health Ministry  > informed, "mercury is required to make the vaccines safe". To the  > author's query that "what are these vaccines that it requires the  > second most dangerous neurotoxin, mercury, to make them safe?",  > there was no reply. > Mercury used in vaccines is second in toxicity only to the  > radioactive substance, Uranium. It is a neurotoxin that can damage  > the entire nervous system of the infant in no time. > Mercury accumulates in fat. The brain being made mostly of fat  > cells, most of the mercury accumulates there giving rise to the  > peculiar symptoms of the autistic children. > The mercury used in vaccines is ethyl mercury. According to Indian  > doctors this is an industrial toxin and is 1000 times more toxic  > than the usual methyl mercury. > The aluminum present in vaccines makes the mercury, in any form, 100  > times more toxic. > As per an independent study aluminum and formaldehyde present in  > vaccines can increase the toxicity of mercury, in any form, by 1000  > times. > As per a Tehelka article on Autism, if one considers the WHO limit  > for mercury in water, they are receiving 50,000 times the limit. The  > limits set, incidentally, are for adults and not infants. > Autism in India has emerged as the most rapidly growing epidemic  > amongst children. As per a private study done by doctors in New  > Delhi, from 1 in 500 it has steadily climbed to 1 in 37 today. As  > per Indian doctors, "You can go to any class of any school today and  > find an autistic child." > Autism is a permanent disability that affects the child physically,  > mentally and emotionally. It makes the child loose social contact.  > It impedes both the physical and mental growth of the child. It  > destroys the brain causing severe memory and attention problems.The  > majority of symptoms displayed by autistic children match symptoms  > of heavy metal poisoning. > According to vaccine researcher Dr Harris Coulter, vaccines cause  > children to become pervert and criminal. Majority of the school  > shootings by the children in the USA have been committed by autistic  > children. Vaccines can cause more harm that even the medical  > community privately acknowledges. > Autistic children also suffer from severe bowel disorders. As per Dr  > Andrew Wakefield, this is due to the vaccine strain live measles  > virus in the MMR vaccine. Nearly all children become fully autistic  > after the MMR shot. As per a recent study the MMR vaccine has an  > adverse effect on the vital mucosal immune system. The very basis of  > trying to prevent childhood Mumps and Measles has been questioned in  > this study. > The DPT also causes children to regress giving rise to fears that  > multiple live virus vaccines are an important cause behind autism.  > If three live viruses can cause so much harm we can well imagine  > what today’s five and seven viruses vaccines will do to children. > Before the autism epidemic, it was already well known that vaccines  > have caused the cancer epidemic in today’s society. Both the Small  > Pox and the Oral Polio Vaccine are made from monkey serum. This  > serum has helped many cancer causing monkey viruses, 60 found so far  > (SV 1 to SV60), to enter the human blood stream. As per recent  > revelations these viruses continue to be in the vaccines. > It is also known that it is the use of green monkey serum in  > vaccines that has led to the transfer of the Simian Immune  > deficiency Virus (SIV) from monkeys into humans. The SIV and the HIV  > that causes AIDS are very similar. > Not only AIDS, a blood cancer in infants (Acute Lymphoblastic  > Leukemia) that is affecting children in thousands may also be  > primarily due to the extremely toxic nature of vaccine ingredients  > injected directly into the blood stream. > Infantile jaundice and also infantile diabetes is also  > scientifically connected to the toxic vaccines. > The live polio viruses used in the Oral Polio Vaccine has caused  > Vaccine Attributed Paralytic Polio in more than 1,25,000 children  > (up to the year 2006) as per doctors of the Indian Medical  > Association and the Jana Swasthya Abhiyan. The OPV has also let  > loose a new strain of polio in both India and Africa. The OPV is  > banned in the USA & European countries. > Vaccines contain serum from not only chimpanzees and monkeys but  > also from cows, pigs, chickens, eggs, horses, and even human serum  > and tissues extracted from aborted fetuses. > Deaths and permanent disability from vaccines is very common and  > known by the medical community. They are instructed by the  > Government to keep quiet and not to associate such cases with  > vaccines. > Many doctors argue that diseases during childhood are due to the  > body exercising its immune system. Suppressing these diseases causes  > the immune system to remain undeveloped causing the various  > autoimmune disorders like diabetes and arthritis that have become  > epidemics today. > Vaccines suppress the natural immunity and the body does not have  > natural antibodies anymore. The mothers milk therefore does not  > contain natural antibodies and can no longer protect the child  > against illnesses. > By stimulating humoral (blood related) immunity alone vaccines have  > caused an imbalance in the whole immune set up leading to an  > alarming increase in auto immune disorders. This is acknowledged by  > the immunologists themselves. > In the USA vaccine adverse effects are recorded and the Government  > offers compensation of millions of dollars to victims (the most  > recent case in its Vaccine Court may have received upto $200 million  > in damages). The Indian Government simply refuses to acknowledge  > that vaccines can cause deaths and permanent disability. > It has been scientifically proven that vaccines cannot prevent  > disease. Vaccines try to create humoral (blood related immunity)  > whereas it has been found that immunity is developed at various  > levels, humoral as well as cellular. We still do not know enough  > about the human immune system and therefore should not interfere  > with it. > In the USA parents are informed about vaccine after effects and  > their consent has to be taken before vaccinating their children. In  > India the Government assures the population through massive  > advertising campaigns that vaccines are extremely safe. Parents  > refusing to vaccinate are threatened by the administration. > THERE IS NO SYSTEM OF TREATMENT TO TREAT A VACCINE DAMAGED CHILD.  > The parents have to run from one hospital to another. The Government  > turns a blind eye and refuses to even acknowledge the vaccine  > connection. Attempts by private practitioners worldwide to treat  > vaccine damaged children by flushing out heavy metals and toxins  > from the body have been frowned upon and discouraged. > Senior medical doctors have challenged even the vaccines recommended  > by the Government of India. The BCG vaccine for tuberculosis has  > been extensively tested in India as long back as 1961 and found to  > be totally ineffective. The OPV is causing polio and other  > neurological and intestinal disorders in tens of thousands of Indian  > children. The Hep-B vaccine introduced recently is not meant for  > children at all, it is a vaccine for a sexually transmitted disease  > that should be targeted only at promiscuous adults. The tetanus  > vaccine contains both aluminum and mercury besides the tetanus  > toxoid. The doctors themselves avoid giving the DPT to their  > children and relatives as per a survey amongst US health care  > professionals. The measles vaccine is a vaccine that regularly  > causes severe adverse effects and the health workers I have  > interviewed want it out. > The pediatricians are introducing dubious vaccines in India, which  > are being opposed by the doctors, politicians, and public in  > American and European countries. The Rotavirus vaccine, Hib vaccine,  > HPV vaccine and the various multi virus vaccines being introduced  > without any kind of testing is only because the vaccine  > manufacturers and the doctors administering them want to ensure a  > good income from them. They care two hoots about medical ethics and  > the fate of the children who will receive these vaccines. Vaccines  > containing nano particles and viruses and also plant based  > genetically modified vaccines are being opposed by honest doctors  > worldwide. > Various independent studies, notably the Dutch and the more recent  > German study,  comparing vaccinated with unvaccinated children have  > found that vaccinated children are prone to asthma, dermatitis,  > allergies, hyperactivity etc. The death rate amongst vaccinated  > children is much more than the unvaccinated ones. > Vaccines, being a mass medical program which is accepted without  > question, becomes the perfect launching pad for bioterrorism. The  > powerful countries can spread lethal epidemics by just polluting the  > vaccines with bio warfare agents. The USA has handed over vaccine  > research to a bioterrorism research unit called the BARDA which  > functions under the Pentagon. A warning to this effect has been  > sounded by the Vice President IAP in a letter to the DGHS. > Besides "investigating" into the small pox virus, it is reported  > that a "weapons grade" bird flu vaccine has already been devised by  > the Pentagon to be used as biowarfare agents. > Vaccines have also been used to ensure population control. A batch  > of the tetanus vaccine has been used in many Asian countries to make  > the female population sterile. This was done by introducing a  > hormone that by inducing antibodies would abort the foetus when it  > is formed. In India, Saheli, a NGO fighting for the rights of women  > filed a PIL against this when the fact surfaced. > Mercury, a part of vaccines, is known to interfere with the  > endocrine system and induce sterility in both males and females. > Through a new Public Health Bill that is being drafted the  > Government of India is planning to introduce forced vaccinations and  > threaten anti-vaccination activists with steep fines and jail terms.  > This is obviously at the instance of foreign (read US) vaccine  > giants who are shifting base to India reeling at the tremendous  > opposition to vaccines in US and European countries. The Govt of  > India is planning a "vaccine park" at Chennai where these vaccine  > MNCs will set up base. This itself is an act of bioterrorism which  > ironically the proposed bill seeks to oppose. > As per the IOM, USA, vaccine research for a probable link between  > vaccines and autism should not be conducted. The Institute of  > Medicine in its last report on vaccines and autism in 2004 said that  > more research on the vaccine question is counterproductive: Finding  > a susceptibility to this risk in some infants would call into  > question the universal vaccination strategy that is a bedrock of  > immunization programs and could lead to widespread rejection of  > vaccines. The IOM concluded that efforts to find a link between  > vaccines and autism "must be balanced against the broader benefit of  > the current vaccine program for all children". What does this add up  > to? Infants should be sacrificed in order to perpetuate an  > unscientific procedure? >    The above points are not exhaustive. For a more detailed article  > please write to me at jagchat01 at yahoo.com. > > -------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > Reply to criticism of above article: > -------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > Dear Dr _____, > > Namaste. I am sorry I got your name wrong the first time. > > The title of my article is now "50 Reasons to Protect Infants from  > Vaccines", as I have added 5 more points. I can add much more but  > that would test the patience of the readers. An article very similar  > to mine by Dr Guy Lanctot, MD, appears here; > http://educate-yourself.org/cn/vaccinationsilentgenocide14nov05..shtml > > Before I reply to your arguments I wish to emphasize a few points.  > Science is about discovering the truth about the physical universe.  > Truth which is measurable and verifiable. There is no bias in  > science. It just states the fact for the society to interprete it  > and apply it. Science is guided by ethics and morality. The findings  > are utilised to serve humanity. > > Technology is about putting scientific theory into practice. As far  > as I have read, it is about harnessing science to serve mankind.  > There is a lot more human interference with technology than with  > science. Often scientific findings are compromised to make  > technology viable. This is not bad in itself if the intentions are  > good and the aim laudable. > > Todays technology is dominated by the industry. Private enterprise  > is about earning profits. It is known that laws can be circumvented  > even legally as laws are subject to various interpretations.  > Scientific institutions today are funded by private enterprises. If  > a scientific institution conducts a study sponsored by private  > enterpreneurs it gets paid only if the findings are favourable to  > the sponsor. This is particularly true of the medical industry. > > It often happens that the data of the institution may be honestly  > generated but intentionally misinterpreted to suit industry needs.  > We know that the Lancet, a premier medical journal, has conceded  > that it has no way to verify the research articles published in it.  > This is also true of other journals. It is up to each individual  > scientist to be ethical so that science prevails over industry  > profitability. > > I will point out to the issue of mercury in vaccines. The vaccine  > decontaminant Thiomersal is 49.56% ethylmercury by weight.  > Ethylmercury is an industrial toxin whose use is fraught with great  > dangers. The bottles of Thiomersal have the skull and dagger mark on  > them. Thiomersal has been pushed out of many a medical product  > because of its severe toxicity. Products using Thiomersal have been  > recalled from the market. Mercury in its any form is known to be  > dangerous. A study by the Americam Academy of Pediatricians has  > clearly stated that mercury is particularly dangerous for the  > pregnant mother and the infant. > > However study after study in the USA reveals that Thiomersal is  > safe. The latest study hopes to "put at rest all doubts". The  > doctors who are sympathetic to my cause and medical scientists scoff  > at such studies. I am personally aware of meetings in the Health  > Ministry that have discussed this very sensitive issue. Even then  > mercury will not be shifted out of vaccines. Even "mercury free"  > vaccines contain this heavy metal. > http://www.hapihealth.com/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=19&Itemid=27 > This is because, as intimated to me officially by the Govt of India,  > mercury is essential to "make vaccines safe". Without this  > decontaminant the  vaccines would cause "more harm". > > I wish to also define this "harm". Vaccines consists of bacteria and  > viruses that are cultured in animal tissues and serum. This is the  > prime source of contamination. You talk about "pure vaccines". There  > is no such thing as a pure vaccine, the term is an oxymoron. There  > have been attempts to replace Thiomersal by 2Phenoxyethelene,  > another very dangerous neurotoxin. But the results, as informed to  > me, are "not encouraging". I have with me the PPT presentation that  > was used by a very senion health ministry official that details all  > this. I cannot share it with you. > > So mercury continues to be pumped into infants. Along with that goes  > live and genetically modified bacteria and viruses, contaminated  > serum, heavy metals like mercury and aluminum, carcinogens like  > formaldehyde and monosodium glutamate, antibiotics that ought not to  > be injected without skin prick tests and God alone knows what else. > > The other aspect of this "harm" is the effect on the financial  > health of vaccine manufacturers and even the government. The  > manufacturers would be inundated with court cases if by chance an  > "official study" concedes that Thiomersal can cause harm. As it is,  > in the US itself, around 8000 cases are pending against the  > industry. The first case has been decided upon and has gone in  > favour of the complainant setting back the US Govt by several  > hundred million dollars, as assumed by activists as the amount of  > compensation has not been revealed. In a case where the amount was  > revealed the compensation was seventy eight million dollars. No  > wonder both the government and the industry are jittery. The  > industry has appealed to the government to shut down operations. The  > US Govt's response has been to grant immunity to vaccine  > manufacturers, put up a special "vaccine court" and put a surcharge  > of $60 per vaccine to set up a vaccine damage compensation fund. > > In India, the government is in no position to even have "mercury  > free" vaccines. The process of removing mercury from the end product  > (mercury is used in the process) will increase the cost of vaccine 4  > to 5 times. The government cannot afford this. > > The very fact that "scientific studies" repeatedly stress that the  > presence of mercury, aluminum, squalene and other toxic ingredients  > in vaccines are "safe" to be injected into infants makes me wary of  > such studies in the official domain. > > Thus I prefer to state the facts to people without depending upon  > distorted studies. The parents need to have all the information they  > have before they decide to vaccinate. That vaccines are dangerous is  > openly conceded and even declared in writing by the biotechnology  > department of the Govt of India, Ministry of Science and Technology,  > who promise that genetically engineered and plant based vaccines  > would relieve the burden on children who are now injected with  > animal serum, heavy metals and other toxins. What they don't say  > that the health effects of genetically engineered vaccines will also  > never be revealed. > > Regarding the points raised by you I have already sent a detailed  > article which will answer many of your questions. I have also sent  > you a link which clearly shows the disease graphs based upon US Govt  > data and the fact that vaccines have been introduced at the fag end. > http://www.vaccinationdebate.com/web1..html > http://www.vaccineriskawareness.com/Did-Vaccines-Really-Halt-Killer-Diseases- > The government announcement in the Hindu has found mention in an  > article in the Indian Journal of Pediatrics by Dr Jacob Puliyel who  > is a very senior IMA member and the Co Chairman of the IMA  > immunisation committee. I have mentioned the name of the article in  > the article sent to you. The IAP, Orissa, instructions appeared only  > on print and not on the net (like the TOI article) and I will send  > it to you separately. > > I must also mention that scarlet fever and the plague have come and  > gone without vaccines "eradicating" them. > > Your contention about empirical evidence should also be applied to  > the fact that illnesses amongst children have shot through the roof  > after vaccines have been introduced. Why should this evidence be  > ignored? The nature of vaccine ingredients and the harm they cause  > can be found here; > http://www.vaccination.inoz.com/ingredie.html > > Regarding vaccine safety and testing, a CDC website states, "No  > matter how extensive the testing, it is impossible to allow  > completely for the infinite variation among individuals, their  > immune systems, and their reactions to the introduction of new  > substances into their bodies. Serious systemic reactions to vaccines  > can occur, although they are very rare.." However such reactions are  > not rare as revealed by the growing epidemic of diseases amongst  > children who are clearly showing signs and symptoms of the  > ingredients they are being injected with. > > Vaccines are never tested against a plain placebo. The usual  > procedure is to either test it against a comparable vaccine or a  > diluted version of the same vaccine. This newsreport will educate you; > http://www..healthguidance.org/entry/1079/1/How-Are-Vaccines- > Tested.html > > In India vaccines and drugs have been tested without even the  > participant's knowledge. A case in North India revealed that an  > experimental vaccine was tested on pregnant women. This was widely  > reported by the press. Such trials are carried out in other  > countries too; > http://www.upi.com/Science_News/2008/07/03/Homeless_die_in_Poland_of_bird-flu_vaccine/UPI-39641215100179/ > > Vaccine tests leave a lot to be desired. An unbiased report, the  > full version of which has been pulled out of the net, points out, as  > salient points: >  " How vaccines are tested - typically a new vaccine is tested on  > 10,000 - 20,000 people before the FDA approves it, is this enough to  > reliably detect rare complications?... Two safety lapses - in two  > recent cases, vaccine-safety agencies were slow to act on emerging  > problems... The antivaccine argument - arguments and suppositions of  > antivaccine activists... Compensating the injured - the federal  > Vaccine Injury Compensation Program was created in 1988, funded by a  > small tax on every lot of vaccine, it is an insurance plan against  > childhood-vaccine injuries..." > > This study points out that vaccines are a matter of "trust". > http://www.comminit.com/en/node/181126/292 > > Doctors are instructed not to report vaccine damage. This was  > publicly admitted by the IMA when it blew the whistle on the OPV and  > the cases of paralysis caused by it. The government had instructed  > physicians not to report damage. > > Personally I would request you to pose as a ordinary non medical  > person and take a vaccine damaged child to a pediatrician. You will  > yourself realise how the system works. I have taken many such  > children to doctors and have received open threats. A doctor, Dr  > P... M...., who is a office bearer of the Indian Academy of  > Pediatricians openly challenged me that, "no doctor will "dare"  > certify that this child is vaccine damaged." That is the system for  > you. In case of the OPV the IMA has pointed out that the vaccine  > surveillance system reports only up to 5% of cases. > > There are no official studies comparing vaccinated versus non  > vaccinated children. Activists have all along been shouting for such  > studies. The findings of independent studies can be found here; > http://www.whale.to/a/children1.html > http://www.ageofautism.com/2008/03/oh-just-2-mor-1.html > http://www.generationrescue.org/survey.html >  http://www.vaccination.inoz.com/unvaccinated.html > http://www.whale.to/vaccine/unvax.html > > For presence of monkey viruses in vaccines I will cite an official  > study so that you will be at ease. This article states that SV 40 is  > not cancerous and yet details all the steps that are taken to keep  > vaccines SV40 free (just as the US Govt repeatedly says that  > Thiomersal is extremely safe and yet is trying to reduce it in  > American vaccines). However in practical circumstances such tests  > are very difficult to carry out. A vaccine whistleblower has pointed  > out that vaccine batches are often monitored "visually". Cases of  > contamination being found is very regular in the vaccine industry.  > It has happened with the OPV in India also. Vaccine testing is  > indeed a "matter of trust". > http://www.emea.europa.eu/pdfs/human/bwp/141202en.pdf > > This official very scientific study borders between "no incidence"  > and "probably". Interestingly it tries to rationalise the presence  > of the SV40 in Indians to "man-monkey" physical exposure. Have we  > ALL been bitten by monkey's? Then there is also the case of "false  > tests". "We say it is not there so it SHOULD NOT be there". Typical  > scientific conclusions in today's profit oriented world. > http://www.cancer.gov/cancertopics/factsheet/simian-virs-40 > > This scientific study says the whole issue needs further probe >  http://www.nature.com/onc/journal/v23/n38/full/1207877a.html > > There is a SV40 foundation that studies this simian virus > http://www.sv40foundation.org/ > > Regarding the Simian Immunodeficiency Virus (SIV), this PubMed study  > reveals the need to study this virus to develop a vaccine for AIDS.  > So while seeking to develop a highly profitable vaccine in the  > market we recognise the dangers from SIV but we say that the SIV  > delivered to humans via the small pox vaccine and the OPV does not  > have any relation to AIDS. Typical scientific thinking again. > http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/15731236 > > I will strongly object to your view that vaccines strengthen  > immunity. Vaccines have nothing to do with stregthening immunity. A  > strong immunity would reject the invasion by way of vaccines. Hence  > adjuvants are used to "put the immune system on hold" so that the  > body is forced to accept the intruder. You will find allergies in  > all vaccinated children. This very fact reveals that the vaccines  > severely affect the immune system. How the vaccines affect the  > immune system is described here by Dr Rebecca Carley, a medico legal  > expert on vaccines. Her article was deleted from the WHO website,  > where it once appeared; > http://www.wnho.net/response_to_cdc_health_research_guide.htm > > This article was actually here in the CDC website before it was  > pulled out; > http://www.rsvpbook.com/custom_pages/50942/popup_chapter.php > > Regarding 30 vaccine "shots" that I have mentioned (not 30  > vaccines), the IAP recommends 24 shots without the consultation of  > parents and 5 vaccines (Hep A, Varicella, Pneumococcal, Meningitis,  > Japanese Encephalitis) (6 shots I think or maybe more) after  > consulting. Thus the figure of 30 shots is correct, the actual may  > be more. All these vaccines are being routinely given to children by  > private practitioners. > > I will object that you accuse me of lying and misleading the public.  > To the contrary I am trying to educate parents about the dangers  > from vaccines, a fact that is being increasingly admitted by even  > pediatricians. Their first reaction has been not to vaccinate their  > own children and relatives. There are many pediatricians today who  > are not vaccinating beyond the IPV as far as their own children and  > relatives are concerned. I would appeal to them to extend this  > facility to their patients also, infants who have no voice to  > protest, but they do protest by persistently crying and trying to  > make it known that they do not wish to be vaccinated. > > And finally here is a link to pictures of vaccine damaged children,  > at the end. These are only from the small pox vaccine. I must  > mention that autistic children are severely damaged and do not show  > any external damage. Thus most vaccine damage will be permanent and  > internal. Diseases can indeed disfigure children but most of the  > damage occurs because of trying to meddle with eruptive acute  > disease. I remember my brother being severely affected by measles  > and recovering normally under homeopathic treatment. > > If I have left anything out kindly let me know. > > I am marking a copy to some senior doctors of India, USA and Canada.  > They may kindly correct me if I have stated anything wrong here. > > Regards, > Jagannath. > _________________________________________ reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. Critiques & Collaborations To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with subscribe in the subject header. To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> From kmvenuannur at gmail.com Sat Jun 20 14:22:33 2009 From: kmvenuannur at gmail.com (Venugopalan K M) Date: Sat, 20 Jun 2009 14:22:33 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Is Indian democracy turning into a farce now? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <1f9180970906200152p3c9fa558g8008d69dd646314c@mail.gmail.com> A very interesting piece of much needed research and also worth sharing; thanks for the forward. We may recall that in the last US Presidency elections, the fact that both the contestants of the Democratic Party were multi- billioners having stakes in promoting the interests of Corporates and the fluidity of the Global Capital, was much less talked about. Instead in the mainstream media ,we saw a fierce campaign at the hustings where one of them was projected as championing the cause of Afro Americans and non whites worldwide, and the other as for the cause of women everywhere. At least quite a few of us were debating similar issues here also .Despite that a blindly expressed commitment toward different versions of identity politics could have wrought havoc, unlike in the past, people seem to have by and large resisted notions of vote banks built only on identities, such as Muslim, Dalit and so on. That is a consolation, despite how the system as a whole prooves itself deeply biased toward the rich. Regards, Venu. On Sat, Jun 20, 2009 at 1:29 PM, Rakesh Iyer wrote: > Dear all > > This is an article from 'The Hindu' which I got, and liked very much. In it > lies a message for us as well as for the Indian democracy. May be also > something for the Bollywood brigade which was encouraging all of us to go > out and vote. May be it's time we do understand that the meaning of > democracy is not just elections, which is what all of us indirectly or > directly have reduced to. > > Hope you enjoy the article. And I do hope others will comment on this, as > they do on identity based concerns. > > Regards > > Rakesh* > > The age of the aam crorepati - P.Sainath * > > * If you are worth Rs. 50 million or more, you are 75 times more likely to > win an election to the Lok Sabha than if you are worth under Rs. 1 million. > * > > “I think almost everyone will grant that if candidates for the United > States > Senate were required to possess ten million dollars, and for the House one > million, the year-in-year-out level of conservatism of those two bodies > might be expected to rise sharply. We could still be said to have a freely > elected Congress. Anybody with ten million dollars (or one, if he tailored > his ambition to fit his means) would be free to try to get himself > nominated, and the rest of us would be free to vote for our favourite > millionaire or even to abstain from voting.” — A.J. Liebling, *The Wayward > Pressman*, 1947 > > Liebling also warned in the 1960s that the business models of newspapers > would one day prove their undoing. A prophecy that rings true today for the > giants of that industry in his own country. Yes, you’ve seen his words on > voting in these columns before. But the 2009 poll results have made him > doubly relevant. “Voting for our favourite millionaire” comes alive with > the > 15th Lok Sabha. Its 543 MPs are worth close to Rs. 28 billion. (Of which 64 > Union Cabinet members from the Lok Sabha account for Rs. 5 billion). And > the > links between wealth and winning elections are firmer than ever before. > > If you are worth over Rs. 50 million, you are 75 times more likely to win > an > election to the Lok Sabha than if you are worth under Rs. 1 million. At > least, in the case of the 2009 polls. (Some 23 of 64 Cabinet Ministers > whose > asset worth is in the public domain fall into this Rs. 50 million-plus > category. Providing it stability of sorts, I guess. In the entire Cabinet, > only one falls into the less-than-Rs.1 million group.) > > Another 29 members of the Cabinet fall in the Rs. 5 million-Rs. 50 million > category. If you are in this bracket, your chances of winning aren’t as > great as the 50 million-plus, or Platinum Tier, elite. However, you are > still 43 times more likely to win than those with less than Rs. 1 million > in > assets (that is, almost the whole of India’s population). The remaining > Ministers, in case you were losing sleep over their condition, fall into > the > Rs. 1 million-Rs. 5 million club, the Cabinet equivalent of BPL. However, > there are five years in which to remedy this situation and alleviate the > misery of this group. > > These are just a few of the insights brought to us by an interim report of > National Election Watch on the 2009 polls. NEW is a coalition of over 1200 > civil society groups working across the country. Their “Analysis of MPs of > the 15th Lok Sabha (2009)” makes great reading and is the product of fine > research and much hard work. > > There were 3,437 candidates in the polls with assets of less than Rs.1 > million, says the report. Of these, just 15 (0.44 per cent) made it past > the > post. But your chances soar with your assets. Of the 1,785 candidates in > the > Rs. 1 million-Rs. 5 million group, 116 (6 per cent) won. This win-ratio > goes > up to 19 per cent of candidates for the Rs. 5 million-Rs. 50 million > segment. And of 322 candidates in the Rs. 50 million-plus or platinum tier, > 106 (33 per cent) romped home. > > The higher you climb the ladder of lucre, the better your chances. That is > obvious. But what is striking is how bleak things are for non-millionaires. > Even a modest improvement in your wealth helps. Say, you move from the > below > Rs. 1 million group to the Rs.1-5 million group — your chances immediately > improve at a higher rate than your wealth. (Of course, that works only if > you are already close to the Rs. 1 million mark.) So it’s not just that > wealth has some impact on election outcomes — it influences them heavily > and > disproportionately as you go up the scale. > > All of a piece with a society that only last year had 53 dollar > billionaires > (pre-meltdown). One that still has 836 million human beings who “get by” on > less than Rs. 20 a day. Which ranks 66th amongst 88 nations on the Global > Hunger Index (just one notch above Zimbabwe). Which has plummeted to rank > 132 in the United Nations Human Development Index (one slot below Bhutan) > as > our billionaire count has risen. That wallows below Bolivia, Botswana, the > Republic of the Congo and the Occupied Territories of Palestine in the HDI > rankings. And never mind being worth billions — 60 per cent of adult rural > Indians simply do not have bank accounts. > > There is little question that big bucks help in our polls. The number of > ‘crorepatis’ in the present Lok Sabha is up 98 per cent as compared to > 2004. > Then there were 154, now there are 306 — almost double. A healthy growth > rate. And there are grounds for optimism that the BPL group in the Cabinet > can uplift itself speedily. That’s happened to both MPs and candidates in > some of the most troubled parts of the country. The net worth of candidates > in Vidarbha rose by over 160 per cent between 2004 and 2009. In the Wardha > district of that region alone, the net worth of candidates rose by 1,157 > per > cent between 2004 and 2009. (Ananth Krishnan, *The Hindu*, April 14, 2009). > The Kalahandi-Bolangir-Koraput region had seven ‘crorepati’ candidates. > > But back to the NEW report. Of the 306 crorepatis in the new Lok Sabha, > 141, > almost half, belong to the party of the *aam aadmi*, the Congress. The BJP > lotus is a withering second, with 58. The SP, the BSP and the DMK follow > with 14, 13 and 12 multi-millionaires. The Shiv Sena doesn’t do too badly > with nine and the NCP with seven. In the case of these two parties, it > means > that almost 80 per cent of their elected MPs are ‘crorepatis.’ The Left > bloc > fares poorly, scoring just one from among its 24 MPs. > > The one-in-three success rate of the Rs.50 million-plus candidates doesn’t > tell the whole story, though. Often, they have defeated others of their own > league. Who might well have fared better against candidates of lower asset > castes. > > We are also faithful to our role model: the United States, where Liebling’s > prophecy has worked with a vengeance for decades. One pre-meltdown piece in > * www.opensecrets.org * put it neatly last year. “As Americans worry about > their own finances, their elected representatives in Washington — with a > collective net worth of $3.6 billion [roughly Rs. 172 billion] — are mostly > in good shape to withstand a recession.” Before the meltdown rained on > their > parade, it says, members of Congress, “saw their net worths soar 84 per > cent > from 2004 to 2006, on average.” It points out that while U.S. Senators had > “a median net worth of approximately $1.7 million in 2006,” only about “1 > per cent of all American adults had a net worth greater than $1 million > around the same time.” > > So the collective net worth of elected representatives in Washington is > Rs.172 billion and that of our own Rs. 28 billion. Okay, we’re outclassed. > But not to feel too bad about it. For one thing, the U.S. figure appears to > include both the Senate and the House of Representatives. Ours covers only > the Lok Sabha. What’s more, our team seems to clock a better rate of > growth. > And the gap is narrowing. The good rate of growth for second or third-term > MPs also holds another lesson. Not only is it easier to get elected if you > have money, it is easier to make money if you get elected > > In both countries, money from big corporations helps clinch poll victories. > Corporate lobbies like Big Oil have long “owned” Senators and Congressmen. > In India, this trend has grown even in terms of individual corporate > chiefs. > In the U.S., corporate power has been on shameless display during the > financial bailouts. > > The AIGs, The Goldman Sachs *et al* unsheathed their massive clout to grab > public money. In India, that power was visible to the naked eye in the > run-up to last year’s trust vote in Parliament. One party even dumped a > sworn political stand of eight decades under that influence. > > In the NEW report, the wealthiest group of those elected falls into the Rs. > 50 million-plus category. The ranking within this is intriguing. The > average > worth of a Lok Sabha MP is Rs. 51 million. But there are 74 MPs with > serious > criminal charges against them whose wealth averages Rs. 60 million. That > is, > they are well entrenched in Parliament’s Platinum tier. And the average > wealth of a Cabinet Minister is around Rs. 75 million. Ah well, it’s a hard > climb to the top. > * * > > Printer friendly > page< > http://www.hinduonnet.com/thehindu/thscrip/print.pl?file=2009062056190800.htm&date=2009/06/20/&prd=th& > > > > Send this article to Friends by > E-Mail< > http://www.hinduonnet.com/thehindu/thscrip/pgemail.pl?date=2009/06/20/&prd=th& > > > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > subscribe in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> -- http://venukm.blogspot.com http://www.shelfari.com/kmvenuannur http://kmvenuannur.livejournal.com From rakesh.rnbdj at gmail.com Sat Jun 20 15:07:18 2009 From: rakesh.rnbdj at gmail.com (Rakesh Iyer) Date: Sat, 20 Jun 2009 15:07:18 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Is Indian democracy turning into a farce now? In-Reply-To: <1f9180970906200152p3c9fa558g8008d69dd646314c@mail.gmail.com> References: <1f9180970906200152p3c9fa558g8008d69dd646314c@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: Dear Venugopal jee I think the assumption itself that people vote on basis of vote banks is somewhat wrong. This only takes place in extraordinary situations. Therefore, making such assumptions is quite wrong and detrimental to the Muslims or the Dalits itself. There are larger issues than identities. Even in this forum, we debate more on Indian, Muslim, Hindu, Christian and so on. It seems that Mandir-Masjid fight, Christian conversions, Valentine day and pub culture, and Mangalore attack are more important issues than say corruption in health and education sectors in the govt. machinery, the corruption in the NREGS, Mid Day Meal Scheme and other central govt. sponsored schemes, and so on. Forget all this. The law and order in all the cities is going from bad to worse since the past couple of years. We don't even debate that. Instead, all we can fight on is identity. Since SRK is in news now a days for a quote on the Prophet, may be it's time we remember what his character says in the film Swades: 'Hum sab kehte rehte hain ki humara desh barbaad hone wala hai. Agar sab aise hi chalta raha to ek din wakai yeh desh barbaad ho jayega. Aur hum sab iske liye zimmedaar honge'. Of course, there will be people saying that we shouldn't look at this problem from the eyes of a nation, it lies everywhere. I agree. But isn't it time that we now look at such issues rather than trivial issues like identity, which is what the terrorists, the mullahs, the swamis, the saints, the great messengers of god and their hoodlum followers would want us to focus upon? Or are we simply going to debate endlessly on identity, argue, fight and then pass comments on each other and thereby lose all sense of issues in the process? And of course, then state that education, health, unemployment are non-issues (Indian media said that 2009 General elections were issue-less. Probably Sarai should be given a mission to educate Indian media on reporting). Regards Rakesh From bawazainab79 at gmail.com Sat Jun 20 15:08:04 2009 From: bawazainab79 at gmail.com (Zainab Bawa) Date: Sat, 20 Jun 2009 15:08:04 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Inside Tehran - more news Message-ID: Last Updated: 2009-06-19 2:21:01 PM EDT A relatively large crowd was present to hear Khameini declared during the prayers, while Reformist leaders called on their supporters to stay home. It was very easy to notice that this crowd was also much older than those we have seen revolting. There were two sermons, a religious one and a political one. - The religious sermon itself was rather short and stayed on topic. It concentrated at first on peace and tranquility, leading into the fact that the Revolution was the Will of Allah, that it was sacred and its goals were the goals of Allah. He continued by asking Allah victory over their common enemies, and that people who went against the Revolution were enemies of Allah. - The policial speech was much longer and disjointed. He started by thanking everyone for the election, then he proceeded to blame the West, claimed that Iran was one of the most democratic country on Earth and that the results were not rigged. He claimed that while yes, there is some corruption in Iran, it's nowhere near the UK MP expenses scandal. He then directly threatened the pro-Reformists leaders, saying that all the violence will be their responsibility. This is all the works of Zionist spies and British radio, and Hillary Clinton was responsible for Waco so Iran is better than America and the West. There are three major statements to be gleaned from these speech, with further confirmation of a fourth. However boring and long-winded it might have been to the Western ear, it was a major milestone of this revolution, and its implications are far-reaching: 1- His declaration that the Islamic Revolution sacred, that its goals were the goals of Allah and that those who went against it were the enemies of Allah. He then asked Allah victory over the enemies. This is major. He has in fact painted the entire reformist movement as being anti-Islamic. Due to his position, and the tone that he adopted, this is basically a death sentence delivered to those who will keep on protesting. Not unexpected, but a bold move nonetheless. 2 - He fully supports Ahmadinejad. This is not a surprise, but he did not back down one inch. He does not give credibility to any of the Reformist claims, and says to either toe the line, or suffer the consequences. 3 - He has put the responsability of violence on the shoulders of the Reformist leaders, and openly declared that he is not going to tolerate it anymore. This means that the repression from now on will be much more violent, and has more or less openly threatened the leaders of the Revolution that they will pay with their lives if they continue. *4 - As confirmed by Stratfor, the Revolutionary Guard has taken over from the police in all matters of domestic law and order. This effectively means that they are going to start crushing dissent as well, and that they have allied themselves to the regime.* Out of all major developments, this is the biggest one. Will the army stay Neutral, toe the line or side with the Reformists? It seems that in reaction to being relegated second in the Satans category, the U.S. House has decided to pass a resolution supporting the protesters and Obama is expected to endorse it, which will most likely lead to further delegitimization of the Reformist movement. In other news, things are not rosy for the Basij and there are increasing signs that they are starting not only to lose ground, but to fear for their safety. There are many reports that most Basij forces are now hiding their identities with masks for fear of reprisal. There are websites being created featuring images and often identities of Basij who have been violently repressing students, calling for actin to be taken against those men. I really am trying to cram the most relevant information and speculation only. Everything is updated as events unfold, especially the timeline and what will happen in the future. If you want to link this, here is the website, updated as the situation changes: *https://sites.google.com/site/tatsumairanupdate/* -- Zainab Bawa Ph.D. Student and Independent Researcher Gaining Ground ... http://zainab.freecrow.org http://cis-india.org/research/cis-raw/histories-of-the-internet/transparency-and-politics From kmvenuannur at gmail.com Sat Jun 20 15:49:12 2009 From: kmvenuannur at gmail.com (Venugopalan K M) Date: Sat, 20 Jun 2009 15:49:12 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Is Indian democracy turning into a farce now? In-Reply-To: References: <1f9180970906200152p3c9fa558g8008d69dd646314c@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <1f9180970906200319k6ef008d6mf06dd8d105eef63b@mail.gmail.com> Dear Rakesh, This perspective as articulated here,though would become central to any idea of egalitarian praxis in nation and politics, our leading players often miss it out. Identities ought to occupy the central stage only to the extent of being helpful to locate the areas where things take wrong turns, by design or by default. Discourses on quotas, on (ending) communal profiling of terrorism, on Women's Bill and such, otherwise would not have originated at all in an ideal scheme as suggested by you. Unfortunately, they not only remain unsettled , but are also most likely to be elusive of answers over a period of time ahead. Regards, Venu. On Sat, Jun 20, 2009 at 3:07 PM, Rakesh Iyer wrote: > > Dear Venugopal jee > > I think the assumption itself that people vote on basis of vote banks is somewhat wrong. This only takes place in extraordinary situations. Therefore, making such assumptions is quite wrong and detrimental to the Muslims or the Dalits itself. > > There are larger issues than identities. Even in this forum, we debate more on Indian, Muslim, Hindu, Christian and so on. It seems that Mandir-Masjid fight, Christian conversions, Valentine day and pub culture, and Mangalore attack are more important issues than say corruption in health and education sectors in the govt. machinery, the corruption in the NREGS, Mid Day Meal Scheme and other central govt. sponsored schemes, and so on. Forget all this. The law and order in all the cities is going from bad to worse since the past couple of years. We don't even debate that. Instead, all we can fight on is identity. > > Since SRK is in news now a days for a quote on the Prophet, may be it's time we remember what his character says in the film Swades: > > 'Hum sab kehte rehte hain ki humara desh barbaad hone wala hai. Agar sab aise hi chalta raha to ek din wakai yeh desh barbaad ho jayega. Aur hum sab iske liye zimmedaar honge'. > > Of course, there will be people saying that we shouldn't look at this problem from the eyes of a nation, it lies everywhere. I agree. But isn't it time that we now look at such issues rather than trivial issues like identity, which is what the terrorists, the mullahs, the swamis, the saints, the great messengers of god and their hoodlum followers would want us to focus upon? > > Or are we simply going to debate endlessly on identity, argue, fight and then pass comments on each other and thereby lose all sense of issues in the process? And of course, then state that education, health, unemployment are non-issues (Indian media said that 2009 General elections were issue-less. Probably Sarai should be given a mission to educate Indian media on reporting). > > Regards > > Rakesh -- http://venukm.blogspot.com http://www.shelfari.com/kmvenuannur http://kmvenuannur.livejournal.com From ysaeed7 at yahoo.com Sat Jun 20 16:10:48 2009 From: ysaeed7 at yahoo.com (Yousuf) Date: Sat, 20 Jun 2009 03:40:48 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Reader-list] Iranian Filmmakers expect Ahmadinejad's revenge Message-ID: <239593.20696.qm@web51403.mail.re2.yahoo.com> Iranian Filmmakers expect Ahmadinejad's revenge http://www.cinemawithoutborders.com/news/125/ARTICLE/1906/2009-06-13.html Ramin, a reader of CWB in Tehran writes us in an email ”Iranian Filmmakers and actors and actresses that opposed Ahmadinejad in the recent Iranian presidential election by supporting the moderate Mirhossein Mossavi, are now scared of Ahamadinejad's revenge. Almost no one in the Iranian film community expected Ahmadinejad’s win and now they believe this will bring about darker days and more restricted censorship [to Film]. Iranian filmmakers and actors and actresses, in a video called Green Stars posted on Youtube, went far enough to tell their audiences that a future with Ahmadinejad will be a disaster for art and for the whole country. Looking at brutal beatings and vast number of arrests of those objecting the election results makes the future of those involved with art in Iran grimmer” --- Iranian Documentary Filmmakers ask Iranian Radio and TV to stop lying about recent events http://www.cinemawithoutborders.com/news/125/ARTICLE/1915/2009-06-18.html From rakesh.rnbdj at gmail.com Sat Jun 20 17:52:08 2009 From: rakesh.rnbdj at gmail.com (Rakesh Iyer) Date: Sat, 20 Jun 2009 17:52:08 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Is Indian democracy turning into a farce now? In-Reply-To: <1f9180970906200319k6ef008d6mf06dd8d105eef63b@mail.gmail.com> References: <1f9180970906200152p3c9fa558g8008d69dd646314c@mail.gmail.com> <1f9180970906200319k6ef008d6mf06dd8d105eef63b@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: Dear all To look at how our society can be fooled in the name of identity, I give another article, this on how the Bajrang Dal, one of the organizations of the Sangh Parivar, is fooling a section of Indians, in the name of identity. This seems to be an attempt to mimic those Pakistani mullahs who indulge in similar activities to get people join the Taliban or like-minded organizations. Hope you read the article and understand the dangers of such activities on young minds and on India and the world. And I hope we don't become like them. Regards Rakesh Link: http://www.tehelka.com/story_main42.asp?filename=Ne270609national_defence.asp *National Defence Academy* *Generation Next is born at a Bajrang Dal camp in Delhi. **TUSHA MITTAL**looks in at how the young are being inspired into violence. Photographs by **SHAILENDRA PANDEY* * * A LOUD WHISTLE pierces the early morning silence at the Saraswati Bal Mandir school in West Delhi. A steady stream of young boys in white shirts and *khaki *half-pants filters down to the grounds. Yoga will begin sharp at 4:30am. Karate, judo, nose punches will follow. At first glance, one could mistake this for a boys’ summer camp. But a closer look, and something else emerges. There are lathi pyramids, hoops of fire, gunshots and lessons about the different stages of war. The boys must learn to jump through flames if their houses are set on fire by “terrorists, Muslims, illegal immigrants,” must know a gun intimately to use it for maximum impact. On their arms and foreheads are bright orange bands with red imprints. For Sandeep Yadav, 15, the son of a garment shop owner in Sarojni Nagar, the orange brings motivation and a sense of belonging. “It charges me up to fight,” he says. For what? “To protect *Bharat Mata.”* From what? “*Akraman”* (Attack). By whom? He stammers. The English. The Australians. The Christians. The Muslims. Probe his newly acquired worldview further and this surfaces: “Hindu girls should not wear sleeveless clothes. That is what *Bharatya sanskriti* (Indian culture) teaches us. And if a Hindu girl marries a Muslim, her head should be chopped off and the Muslim man’s too.” Welcome to the training camp of the Bajrang Dal, the youth sect of the rightwing Vishwa Hindu Parishad (VHP). It is a weeklong camp held annually to “instill courage within the Hindu youth and awaken them to their patriotic duties,” says Ashok Kapoor, Bajrang Dal Delhi convenor. “We prepare people to fight on the ground when the need arises,” adds Shailendra Jaiswal, state co-convenor. “We choose them selectively. They must be Hindus and in touch with our local party workers,” he says. The official age is 15 to 35. The 2009 camp concluded in June saw 100 participants. Most come from some right-wing background (their parents are Bajrang Dal workers, neighbours of workers, or perhaps they attend the morning yoga classes held by the VHP in their colony). Yet, this is their first introduction to the Bajrang Dal. Conversations with these children reveal not only how the Dal views itself, but how it systemically indoctrinates its future foot-soldiers. This camp is only the launchpad for a much longer journey. Through the year, other camps with the larger mentor organisation RSS will give the young tribe a chance to hone “intellectual concepts” — the focus will shift from physical training to a more lucid sculpting of the mind. Already, the first dents have been made. Ask Vineet Kumar, 14, barely four feet tall, the son of a sports garments factory worker, what is the Bajrang Dal? With a voice not yet cracked, he answers in phrases – “Ram Setu, Ram Janambhoomi, Amarnath yatra, *hartal, *and *chakka jam.”* According to him, “Pakistani terrorists” were trying to shut down the Amarnath Yatra but the Bajrang Dal rallied every child in Jammu and Kashmir on the streets to protest. At the camp, Vineet learnt a new word he likes to thrust at every opportunity: *Virodh* (resist) — that is what he wants to do when he grows up. Ask what he will *virodh* against and his eyes wander, trying to distill the stew of textbook answers fed to him. THERE WERE speeches: “Be weary of six M’s,” the boys were told from a booming microphone. “Muslims, Missionaries, Marxists, Lord Macaulay, foreign Media and Maino [UPA President Sonia Gandhi’s middle name].” The warning of an apocalypse: *Kalyug* is upon us. The Muslims are taking over the country by converting Hindus, by pretending to be Hindu and marrying our women. Hindus will soon be extinct. Already the Muslims exceed Hindus in India. We must remove the mullahs from our country. They kill our *Gau Mata;* each cow has 2,300 *devis* inside her. (“We can’t trust Muslims, they don’t even spare our cows, why will they spare us?” says Anil, 14, the son of a vegetable vendor in Delhi.) ‘If a Hindu girl marries a Muslim boy, her head should be chopped off,’ says Sandeep, 15 There were revolutionary songs: *Hindu ke hit par janamu, hindu ke hit par mar jaau *(Live and die for the well being of Hindus). *Ho jayo tayar sathiyo, arpit kar do hazar balidan *(Get ready comrades for a thousand sacrifices). Slogans: *Shastro mao jayathe! *(Long live the arms!) CDs with proof: how the police beat up Dal workers trying to save the Amarnath land. And when the young brigade was inspired enough, there were chants: *Ram Ram chilayange, mullhe kate jaayenge.* (Screaming Ram’s name, we will cut the Muslims). And lawyers to explain to the boys how they can avoid criminal charges. No surprise that when the Guru asked, “How we will remove Muslims?” the boys said in unison: “We will cut them up!” And finally, there was advice for life: What should you do if your house is attacked and you have no weapons? Use motorcycle chains. Bring out the gas cylinder. Encircle the house with oil and light it on fire so the terrorists can’t enter. What should you do when Muslims move into your area? Find out their background. Start up a friendship but don’t invite them home. Ask the women if they have been forcibly married. Report to the police if they have. “The Muslims in my lane are nice,” says Vineet. “They don’t force their wives to wear the burqa and they allow their children to play. But other Muslims cut up their wives and children if they step out of the house.” In their modest Badarpur home in South Delhi, Vineet’s mother listens in shock. “I didn’t know this is what they teach,” says Kumari Devi, wavering on whether she’ll send him again next year. But it may not matter. Her son has already found his mission in life — Hindu *Samaj Seva* (social work) — the way the Bajrang Dal defines it. ** From rakesh.rnbdj at gmail.com Sat Jun 20 17:59:43 2009 From: rakesh.rnbdj at gmail.com (Rakesh Iyer) Date: Sat, 20 Jun 2009 17:59:43 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Is Indian democracy turning into a farce now? In-Reply-To: References: <1f9180970906200152p3c9fa558g8008d69dd646314c@mail.gmail.com> <1f9180970906200319k6ef008d6mf06dd8d105eef63b@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: Dear all The only point I wish to make through the above mail is one of duty or dharma, which is what I as a Hindu believe in and I think all Hindus should believe in it (This is my perception, and every Hindu is free to accept it or reject it). India is a democracy, and in a democracy people are free to express their views. Therefore, people are also free to decide upon issues which they consider as important, and those which they consider as not so important. In other words, people have the right to decide what they value and what they don't. However, with every right, is associated a duty. In this case, people have the duty to realize what issues are important for them and what not. And hence, if they do express their right to think of an issue as important, they must have a credible claim to back it up. The problem with organizations like the Bajrang Dal, Shiv Sena or even the SIMI is that they are mixing up too many issues or making them appear too simplistic to achieve their own ends, which is not what is required. Therefore, they are not doing their duty, and since the Bajrang Dal believes it should serve the nation, it is doing a disservice to the own claim of what it is supposed to follow. Identity is not the lone major issue before us, and so my only request is that please let us not focus only on this. We have health, education and other issues to focus upon. Having myself put up some issues, I would be very happy if others can equally put forth other articles on other such issues as well, and infact increase the no. of such articles. That would be of great help. Regards Rakesh From c.anupam at gmail.com Sat Jun 20 18:10:40 2009 From: c.anupam at gmail.com (anupam chakravartty) Date: Sat, 20 Jun 2009 18:10:40 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Is Indian democracy turning into a farce now? In-Reply-To: References: <1f9180970906200152p3c9fa558g8008d69dd646314c@mail.gmail.com> <1f9180970906200319k6ef008d6mf06dd8d105eef63b@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <341380d00906200540o32ad21e2p3cdab04edb2dd839@mail.gmail.com> the problem about this so-called identitarian politics is that it tends to homogenise one set of people loosly connected by their beliefs or under the conditions in which they are born. i say, loosely connected because there are several localised issues, which take a backseat in trying to create something larger -- a larger voice of dissent may be. the belief that with one voice of dissent at least some ends would be achieved on a larger scale is what destroying these movements. had these people (namely bajrang dal or taliban) looked inwards as to what's happening at their homes instead worrying about who is capturing a photograph of them from the border areas, they would have succeeded in achieving these ends and may be in reformation. essentially this is not identitarian politics but a way to control human minds through feudal beliefs. identitarian politics is not about establishing the right to express one's views through democratic or whatever means, it is a question of self realisation. a process which is inward rather than articulations which are hollow. On 6/20/09, Rakesh Iyer wrote: > > Dear all > > The only point I wish to make through the above mail is one of duty or > dharma, which is what I as a Hindu believe in and I think all Hindus should > believe in it (This is my perception, and every Hindu is free to accept it > or reject it). > > India is a democracy, and in a democracy people are free to express their > views. Therefore, people are also free to decide upon issues which they > consider as important, and those which they consider as not so important. > In > other words, people have the right to decide what they value and what they > don't. > > However, with every right, is associated a duty. In this case, people have > the duty to realize what issues are important for them and what not. And > hence, if they do express their right to think of an issue as important, > they must have a credible claim to back it up. The problem with > organizations like the Bajrang Dal, Shiv Sena or even the SIMI is that they > are mixing up too many issues or making them appear too simplistic to > achieve their own ends, which is not what is required. > > Therefore, they are not doing their duty, and since the Bajrang Dal > believes > it should serve the nation, it is doing a disservice to the own claim of > what it is supposed to follow. > > Identity is not the lone major issue before us, and so my only request is > that please let us not focus only on this. We have health, education and > other issues to focus upon. Having myself put up some issues, I would be > very happy if others can equally put forth other articles on other such > issues as well, and infact increase the no. of such articles. That would be > of great help. > > Regards > > Rakesh > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > subscribe in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> From rakesh.rnbdj at gmail.com Sat Jun 20 19:12:22 2009 From: rakesh.rnbdj at gmail.com (Rakesh Iyer) Date: Sat, 20 Jun 2009 19:12:22 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Is Indian democracy turning into a farce now? In-Reply-To: <341380d00906200540o32ad21e2p3cdab04edb2dd839@mail.gmail.com> References: <1f9180970906200152p3c9fa558g8008d69dd646314c@mail.gmail.com> <1f9180970906200319k6ef008d6mf06dd8d105eef63b@mail.gmail.com> <341380d00906200540o32ad21e2p3cdab04edb2dd839@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: Dear all To continue with this thread, I am now giving another article which puts out how our own democracy has been turning to farce, this time in Bengal. It's ironic that instead of the verdict 2009 being the only way through which voices of people are heard, actions of violence are taking centre-stage in the process, and the end result is a disaster where neither the police nor the administration carries out the responsibilities they have to dutifully. Hope views come across on this as well. Regards Rakesh Link: http://www.tehelka.com/story_main42.asp?filename=Op270609circle_of.asp Article: *Circle Of Error* *Was the CPM defeated just to usher in a new cycle of violence in Bengal?* *APOORVANAND* * Literary Critic* IN THE PAST week, Khejuri — adjoining Nandigram in West Bengal — has been witnessing incessant violence. Offices belonging to the Communist Party of India (Marxist) (CPM) have been razed to the ground and vandalised. It is a declaration of dominion, this time, by the CPM’s rival, the Trinamool Congress (TMC). Do I sound like a liberal simpleton when I condemn this violence unleashed by ‘the people’ led by the TMC? Photographs of people tearing away grills from the windows of these offices and carrying them as ‘booty’ with smiling faces tell you that the same old story is being repeated. The plot remains the same; only the hunted have turned into hunters and the hunters of the past are now running for cover. Intellectuals who spoke up against CPM atrocities are now defending Trinamool violence as people’s will This is a turf war similar to the one between activists of the CPM and TMC at Nandigram for much of 2007. The roads to Khejuri are blocked; ministers and leaders of the CPM have been turned away, again, by ‘the people’. The police, as usual, stand mute witness, trained in this state to not go against the ‘will of the people’. How does it matter to them that now these people do not belong to the CPM, who were masters for the last three decades? They have learnt to follow, not the law, but the party. And in Nandigram today, the TMC is ‘The Party’. And the enemy territory of Khejuri, a long-time Marxist stronghold, has also been annexed. Victory is complete. Since the TMC’s candidate was elected in place of the CPM’s notorious strongman Lakshman Seth, the former has taken it upon itself to correct all the wrong that was done by him and his party. What is wrong if the villagers ‘assist’ the police in unearthing arms that were stockpiled in the CPM offices and the homes of their leaders? Why cry foul if the rage of the people burns the dens of Left criminals? Why not rejoice the destruction of the launchpad of the assault on Nandigram i.e. the Khejuri party office of the CPM? After all, didn’t the raiders find in these houses NREGA cards issued in the name of villagers and held illegally by the CPM men? Doesn’t it follow that the TMC was right in cleansing Khejuri of the CPM’s foul elements? And aren’t they right in boycotting the police, which has ‘wrongfully’ arrested 14 members of its liberation army on charges of arson? You cannot equate the Khejuri liberation with the Nandigram recapture by the CPM, we’re told. Has there been any killing this time, any rape? It’s apparently the pent up anger of the people suppressed for last 35 years that is erupting and devouring the CPM. We are witnessing popular upsurge, we’re told. Intellectuals who had spoken up courageously against CPM atrocities in 2008, today try to defend the battle in Khejuri as violence that reflects the will of the people! You’re expected to develop a nuanced understanding of violence so as to differentiate between violence that only burns houses, and drives out unwanted people, and the violence that also rapes, wounds and kills. The CPM was undone because it targetted the masses. The TMC, by vanquishing the earlier masters, inherited the masses. It appears the Trinamool has learnt the lesson well. Its leaders have struck when the CPM is totally knocked out and its ranks demoralised. The police, a trusted ally of the CPM, is not available, as they sensed that change was in the air. What better moment than this to strike at the enemy? Haven’t the people of Bengal already exercised their will by decisively voting out the CPM in the Lok Sabha election? Why turn these ‘people’ now into marauders, brutalising the opponents? The legitimacy gained through the civilised exercise of election is being used to justify violent action. More of this, and democracy is sure to die. The Left terrorised people and polarised them along party lines. The Trinamool is simply a mirror image This is what we have witnessed in Gujarat, where Chief Minister Narendra Modi sought to justify his subversion of the processes of the law in the name of a popular mandate. And this was precisely the argument used by the CPM not so long ago in Nandigram. Didn’t people vote for them for 30 long years? Weren’t they always used as a shield for the hegemonic acts of the CPM? Gradually, the party gobbled them up, thereby completing the task of integration of the people with the party. It’s not very hard to understand why it took the Opposition so long to register its presence in the citadel of the Left. The CPM had captured all social spaces, all cultural and social institutions. Since politics is also a semiotic game, they saw to it that every symbol representing Bengal had a definite Left stamp over it. The terror of the Left was such that its own intellectuals did not criticise the party for fear of being dubbed agents of the bourgeoisie. The Bengal society is also dangerously divided and polarised along party lines. It’s extremely difficult for a Trinamool supporter to live with dignity in a CPM village and vice versa. The CPM did not allow even its allies, like the Forward Block, CPI and RSP to grow beyond a point. It very systematically dehumanised Bengal society to such an extent that any act of opposition had to be, by rule, violent. The new opposition to the CPM has turned, in a sense, into its mirror image. I’m quoting from an article by Siraj written after the sixth Panchayati Raj elections in Bengal: “There is unprecedented rise in the CPM terror and clashes leading to a good number of deaths… The number of seats won uncontested by the Left front was 338 in 1978, 332 in 1983 and 1,716 in 1993. It had risen to 4,200 in 1988, but dipped to 600 in 1998 but jumped (again) to 6,800 in 2003. The ‘Marxist’ Chief Minister Buddhadev Bhattacharja also had to ask in writing to his ‘party men to abide by democratic norms and not to prevent opposition candidates from filing nominations for Panchayat polls.” The mandate of the 2009 Lok Sabha election has created an opening for democratic politics in West Bengal. This is an opportunity for revitalising agencies meant to maintain the rule of law, like the police. It’s tempting to make them shift their loyalty to another party, but this is too easy. The administration and police must realise that their allegiance should be to the Constitution and not to The Party, old or new. West Bengal has forgotten that the best way to live democratically is to give dignity to your opponent and not humiliate and destroy him. The *Ilaka Dakhal* campaign in Khejuri was ‘bloodless’, but in other parts, a fierce battle for turf-control is on. Maoists and CPM members are locked in bloody gun-battles, and wives of opposing party members are paraded with shoe-garlands. It shows that Bengal is still far from “the sphere of human agreement”, which, according to Walter Benjamin, is “non-violent to the extent that it is wholly inaccessible to violence.” Benjamin calls it “the proper sphere of understanding”, which cannot be achieved through force or arms. It has to be created only by using the most democratic tool — language. *WRITER’S EMAIL* apoorvanand at kafila.org Article: From kmvenuannur at gmail.com Sat Jun 20 19:15:22 2009 From: kmvenuannur at gmail.com (Venugopalan K M) Date: Sat, 20 Jun 2009 19:15:22 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Is Indian democracy turning into a farce now? In-Reply-To: References: <1f9180970906200152p3c9fa558g8008d69dd646314c@mail.gmail.com> <1f9180970906200319k6ef008d6mf06dd8d105eef63b@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <1f9180970906200645n7527ebd7l8c953e474b2fdb94@mail.gmail.com> . There can be no doubt about the dangers of certain variants of identity politics which directly poisons people's brains and selectively blinds them to major aspects of social reality. Still, identities continue to negotiate the bumpy fields of power play. Dr. Ambedkar, Periyar and many great leaders of a previous era have used identity politics in ways promoting understanding, rather than hatred toward their adversaries in identities. So, we encounter a problem like which models actually fit into the discourse of identity politics? Or rather, which is the demarcating element , between a genuine movement for self respect and human rights on the one hand, and expression of bellicose nationalism ,regionalism or rabid casteism on the other? Regards, Venu. On Sat, Jun 20, 2009 at 5:59 PM, Rakesh Iyer wrote: > Dear all > > The only point I wish to make through the above mail is one of duty or > dharma, which is what I as a Hindu believe in and I think all Hindus should > believe in it (This is my perception, and every Hindu is free to accept it > or reject it). > > India is a democracy, and in a democracy people are free to express their > views. Therefore, people are also free to decide upon issues which they > consider as important, and those which they consider as not so important. In > other words, people have the right to decide what they value and what they > don't. > > However, with every right, is associated a duty. In this case, people have > the duty to realize what issues are important for them and what not. And > hence, if they do express their right to think of an issue as important, > they must have a credible claim to back it up. The problem with > organizations like the Bajrang Dal, Shiv Sena or even the SIMI is that they > are mixing up too many issues or making them appear too simplistic to > achieve their own ends, which is not what is required. > > Therefore, they are not doing their duty, and since the Bajrang Dal > believes it should serve the nation, it is doing a disservice to the own > claim of what it is supposed to follow. > > Identity is not the lone major issue before us, and so my only request is > that please let us not focus only on this. We have health, education and > other issues to focus upon. Having myself put up some issues, I would be > very happy if others can equally put forth other articles on other such > issues as well, and infact increase the no. of such articles. That would be > of great help. > > Regards > > Rakesh > -- http://venukm.blogspot.com http://www.shelfari.com/kmvenuannur http://kmvenuannur.livejournal.com From c.anupam at gmail.com Sat Jun 20 19:43:52 2009 From: c.anupam at gmail.com (anupam chakravartty) Date: Sat, 20 Jun 2009 19:43:52 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Is Indian democracy turning into a farce now? In-Reply-To: <1f9180970906200645n7527ebd7l8c953e474b2fdb94@mail.gmail.com> References: <1f9180970906200152p3c9fa558g8008d69dd646314c@mail.gmail.com> <1f9180970906200319k6ef008d6mf06dd8d105eef63b@mail.gmail.com> <1f9180970906200645n7527ebd7l8c953e474b2fdb94@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <341380d00906200713la7aafb8w65691b8164f17d65@mail.gmail.com> Dear Venu, Rakesh, I think for any identitarian movement to be successful, it has to start with an inward journey keeping things in retrospect. Blowing one's trumpet because we are a nation of 1 billion people with so much of fire power is not strenghtening our identity but only shows how vulnerable we have become under this project called sovereignity. similarly, movements in religion, in empowering exploited section of people, there has to be mutual consensus that there is no competition with another set of people who are more well off or getting more benefits from the state. it is about trying restore dignity as an individual not because you belong to a collective whole. so that this individual who would define the roles that he/she performs in the movement can realise his/her own potential or limits and perform under these restraints. i dont think with rampant nationalism or with ultra belongingness one would not realise their potentials. this one human identity must be exposed to living conditions of many to assert a simple truth -- to live -- that would subsume all identities, all castes and other such things. it is only possible if this individual looks inside instead of falling prey for a charming leader's words -- whoever it may be. -thanks anupam On 6/20/09, Venugopalan K M wrote: > > . > There can be no doubt about the dangers of certain variants of identity > politics which directly poisons people's brains and selectively blinds > them > to major aspects of social reality. > Still, identities continue to negotiate the bumpy fields of power play. > Dr. Ambedkar, Periyar and many great leaders of a previous era have used > identity politics in ways promoting understanding, rather than hatred > toward their adversaries in identities. > So, we encounter a problem like which models actually fit into the > discourse > of identity politics? > Or rather, which is the demarcating element , between a genuine movement > for self respect and human rights on the one hand, and expression of > bellicose nationalism ,regionalism or rabid casteism on the other? > > Regards, > Venu. > > On Sat, Jun 20, 2009 at 5:59 PM, Rakesh Iyer > wrote: > > > Dear all > > > > The only point I wish to make through the above mail is one of duty or > > dharma, which is what I as a Hindu believe in and I think all Hindus > should > > believe in it (This is my perception, and every Hindu is free to accept > it > > or reject it). > > > > India is a democracy, and in a democracy people are free to express their > > views. Therefore, people are also free to decide upon issues which they > > consider as important, and those which they consider as not so important. > In > > other words, people have the right to decide what they value and what > they > > don't. > > > > However, with every right, is associated a duty. In this case, people > have > > the duty to realize what issues are important for them and what not. And > > hence, if they do express their right to think of an issue as important, > > they must have a credible claim to back it up. The problem with > > organizations like the Bajrang Dal, Shiv Sena or even the SIMI is that > they > > are mixing up too many issues or making them appear too simplistic to > > achieve their own ends, which is not what is required. > > > > Therefore, they are not doing their duty, and since the Bajrang Dal > > believes it should serve the nation, it is doing a disservice to the own > > claim of what it is supposed to follow. > > > > Identity is not the lone major issue before us, and so my only request is > > that please let us not focus only on this. We have health, education and > > other issues to focus upon. Having myself put up some issues, I would be > > very happy if others can equally put forth other articles on other such > > issues as well, and infact increase the no. of such articles. That would > be > > of great help. > > > > Regards > > > > Rakesh > > > > > > -- > http://venukm.blogspot.com > > http://www.shelfari.com/kmvenuannur > > http://kmvenuannur.livejournal.com > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > subscribe in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> From rakesh.rnbdj at gmail.com Sat Jun 20 19:45:43 2009 From: rakesh.rnbdj at gmail.com (Rakesh Iyer) Date: Sat, 20 Jun 2009 19:45:43 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Is Indian democracy turning into a farce now? In-Reply-To: <1f9180970906200645n7527ebd7l8c953e474b2fdb94@mail.gmail.com> References: <1f9180970906200152p3c9fa558g8008d69dd646314c@mail.gmail.com> <1f9180970906200319k6ef008d6mf06dd8d105eef63b@mail.gmail.com> <1f9180970906200645n7527ebd7l8c953e474b2fdb94@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: Dear Venu jee I feel the demarcating element here is the intentions of the actors concerned. If these intentions help the people, the poorest human being as Gandhi jee said, then obviously it would be beneficial. If not, then obviously there may be some problem with it. For example, RSS popularizing Hindutva is not going to help the poorest human being obviously, whereas when Ambedkar fights for the rights of Dalits who are poor indeed, so that they can live with dignity in the society, obviously it can help the poor, the downtrodden and give them political, social and economic empowerment, bring about their development and in my sense, make them happy, which is what development must ultimately aim at. Identity politics should aim at, as Anupam jee said, transforming oneself or improving the lot of one's own community but not at the expense of the others. And obviously, I agree that identity politics focuses on discontentment, but that discontentment should be at the bad condition one is in, not converting that into an enemity factor against others, which can tomorrow lead to violence. Regards Rakesh From c.anupam at gmail.com Sat Jun 20 19:56:59 2009 From: c.anupam at gmail.com (anupam chakravartty) Date: Sat, 20 Jun 2009 19:56:59 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Is Indian democracy turning into a farce now? In-Reply-To: References: <1f9180970906200152p3c9fa558g8008d69dd646314c@mail.gmail.com> <1f9180970906200319k6ef008d6mf06dd8d105eef63b@mail.gmail.com> <1f9180970906200645n7527ebd7l8c953e474b2fdb94@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <341380d00906200726r3b0ded33uff16509a5351ff62@mail.gmail.com> Dear all, I am surprised that the soothsayers among the readers who rush to rescue their gods from being ridiculed are staying away from this discussion. Or is it too trivial to discuss such things? or is it because these are high ideals that we are talking which actually doesnt work against the primordial instinct to human beings -- you scratch my back, i will do the same. some take refuge in this primordial instinct and propagate their ideas. thanks anupam On 6/20/09, Rakesh Iyer wrote: > > Dear Venu jee > > I feel the demarcating element here is the intentions of the actors > concerned. If these intentions help the people, the poorest human being as > Gandhi jee said, then obviously it would be beneficial. If not, then > obviously there may be some problem with it. For example, RSS popularizing > Hindutva is not going to help the poorest human being obviously, whereas > when Ambedkar fights for the rights of Dalits who are poor indeed, so that > they can live with dignity in the society, obviously it can help the poor, > the downtrodden and give them political, social and economic empowerment, > bring about their development and in my sense, make them happy, which is > what development must ultimately aim at. > > Identity politics should aim at, as Anupam jee said, transforming oneself > or > improving the lot of one's own community but not at the expense of the > others. And obviously, I agree that identity politics focuses on > discontentment, but that discontentment should be at the bad condition one > is in, not converting that into an enemity factor against others, which can > tomorrow lead to violence. > > Regards > > Rakesh > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > subscribe in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> From rakesh.rnbdj at gmail.com Sat Jun 20 20:33:19 2009 From: rakesh.rnbdj at gmail.com (Rakesh Iyer) Date: Sat, 20 Jun 2009 20:33:19 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Other concerns Message-ID: Dear all I felt that having said that we should actually discuss other issues as well, I must take the initiative to put up articles on issues which are important for us to discuss. So to begin with, I am putting up this article on GEZ which I found in Tehelka, which I thought I must share on this forum. Please do go through it. I am particularly happy that it's an article set in Gujarat, as the only thing we keep on hearing about Gujarat in the media is about Modi, and lately or some few months back before Modi,. the Nano. May be it's time for a change. Hope you like the article. And please, I would be very happy if the Kshamendras, the Duranis, the Adityas, the Rajens, the Parvaizs, the Shuddhas and others can also share their views on such issues. After all, diversity on our forum must be displayed, celebrated and felt proud about, not something to be kept at home within our own minds. Regards Rakesh Link : http://www.tehelka.com/story_main42.asp?filename=cr270609the_green.asp Article: *The Green World Order* *The Green Economic Zone proposed by the adivasis in Gujarat is a revolutionary alternative to the Special Economic Zone, says **HARMONY SIGANPORIA* THE ADIVASI communities of Gujarat are advocating for a novel counterpoint to the brutality inherent to the Special Economic Zone. An idea they call the ‘Green Economic Zone’ (GEZ) addresses the wants in the SEZ model that the adivasis have long demanded. “Any form of development which does not have for its foundation the concepts of sustainability, ecological sensitivity and an ingrained understanding of the cultural roots of a people, is genocidal by definition,” says Dr Ganesh Devy, founder of Bhasha, an NGO working towards the development of adivasis and founder-director of the seminal Adivasi Academy at Tejgarh, Gujarat. The GEZ is Devy’s brainchild, something that he conceptualised two years ago, unlike any model of its kind in the world. Although much yet needs to be fixed in terms of the exact parameters and definitions that qualify a space to become a GEZ, it is a move towards chalking a proposal for a pro-people, self-sufficient way of life and gain a legal stamp of approval on it, so that the set of villages never face the threat of having to be taken over by a corporate SEZ. Almost utopian, the idea is to ramp up agricultural activity to the fullest, use organic fertilizers, promote local industries and form market linkages — all without destroying the biodiversity and local livelihoods. The GEZ will be created out of local resource and investment with no foreign capital It has been almost a decade now since adivasis in 1,200 villages across the south and southeastern belt of Gujarat started working to create a massive network of micro-credit federations. “Similarly, they have been setting up their own foodgrain banks, water harvesting cooperatives, organic agriculture practices, and have set up and run informal centres of learning. The work began when a group of young adivasis met at Tejgarh in 2000 and resolved to make their villages free of hunger, indebtedness, exploitation arising out of illiteracy, and migration arising out of helplessness,” he explains. This team of dedicated* karyakartas* has now decided to create several GEZs, eventually covering some 2,200 villages, which fall between the Tapti River in the south and the Mahi in the north, with the Narmada flowing in between. What is striking about the GEZs is that unlike their namesakes, they do not seek to court either foreign investment or exploit natural resources. On the contrary, they are to be created strictly out of local resource and investment. “We have, over the years, collected the seed capital we need to launch this initiative. The idea is to respect and integrate local custom and resource at every step of the way and create 100 percent employment for the people who live and work in these GEZs,” says Dr Devy. This massive initiative was launched on 5 June 2009 at the Adivasi Academy in Tejgarh, the first of its kind for tribal studies. The assembled group of community workers, students and faculty of the academy, joined in their efforts by human rights activists, villagers, educationists, writers, theatre artists and other ‘green-development’ sympathisers from all walks of life, started on a week long march. Over the course of the march, the group visited scores of villages spanning the region between Tejgarh and Vedchi, Rajpipla and Vankoda, Naroda and Rangpur. This march, lasting from June 5 to 12, was named* Vivekshil Vikas Mate No Pravas* (A march for wise and sound development). Including all those who joined the march at various stages, the group numbered 1,800 persons. AT EACH stop along the route, the workers engaged with the villagers, sarpanches and local panchayats about the ideas behind the GEZ philosophy and how it would translate into employment and uplift their communities. The movement urged panchayats to sign resolutions to show their solidarity to the cause. So far, panchayats of 130 villages have signed the resolution to help build a strong proof of acceptance. “What Verghese Kurien and his ‘White’ Amul cooperative revolution achieved is what we hope to emulate. The time has come for a ‘Green’ revolution, which needs necessarily to adopt the adivasi model of development. In its gentleness, this is the only form without an automatically inbuilt genocidal import,” stresses Dr Devy. “We refuse to take our message to the people aggressively. We will approach them with respect, with *samvedna* — qualities which get sidelined easily in our overwhelming haste to become what is widely understood as being developed.” Seventy percent of the 2,100 acres of area proposed for the GEZ is fertile land with crops of primarily corn, bajra and wheat. An average farmer owns 1.5 acres of cultivable land and earns Rs 25,000 per annum to feed his family of six today. The GEZ hopes that it will result in an income of at least Rs 40,000 per annum simply by boosting agriculture, irrigation and local industries such as* papad* making, vermicompost fertilizers and other small-scale enterprises. But will the GEZ be based on a legal standing? Vipul Kapadia, a core member of Bhasha says, “That is what we are hoping for. We are readying ourselves with all the requirements so that the government will take us seriously.” One thousand acres of land is the minimum land required for the approval of an SEZ. The 130 villages that have signed the resolution comprise a total area of 1,000 acres. The minimum funds required for an SEZ is Rs 10 crore, which they have through the SHGs (selfhelp groups). “With these documents and a detailed plan for the GEZ, we will approach various government organisations. The planning commission and the ministry of tribal affairs will be the first bodies we will approach. Right now, we are still in the process of penning it all down. But the solidarity we have for this cause is unanimous,” he says confidently. In a speech she gave just before the march, venerable author and social activist Mahasweta Devi said, “All my life I have searched for the ‘genuine’; that sentiment of selfless service which manifests itself in only a handful of us. In Ganesh [Devy] and the people at the Adivasi Academy, I stand vindicated. We are at a crossroads in space and time — there is anticipation in the air; it is as if we know that something big is either about to happen or give way disastrously.” If the GEZ gains a legal identity, it would pave a path like no other, arousing hope in millions, that there can just be a new world order, the reigns of which will lie, finally, in the hands of the common man. *(Siganporia is a freelance journalist based in Ahmedabad)* *WRITER’S EMAIL* siganporia.harmony at gmail.com From kmvenuannur at gmail.com Sat Jun 20 20:43:28 2009 From: kmvenuannur at gmail.com (Venugopalan K M) Date: Sat, 20 Jun 2009 20:43:28 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Is Indian democracy turning into a farce now? In-Reply-To: <341380d00906200726r3b0ded33uff16509a5351ff62@mail.gmail.com> References: <1f9180970906200152p3c9fa558g8008d69dd646314c@mail.gmail.com> <1f9180970906200319k6ef008d6mf06dd8d105eef63b@mail.gmail.com> <1f9180970906200645n7527ebd7l8c953e474b2fdb94@mail.gmail.com> <341380d00906200726r3b0ded33uff16509a5351ff62@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <1f9180970906200813s318530ddr7f72901d8f493717@mail.gmail.com> Well said, Rakesh and Anupam. Perhaps there needs to be lot more of interactions through the medium of words before we are finally able to unsettle our own small circles of self righteousness coming on the way . Somehow, I have an impression that in today's world, there is more space and ease for words to flow, though we all may have our limitations in keeping pace with them. Certainly such words do make more impact thanks to their earnestness and perseverance as to what is to be conveyed, than the din and buzzes often made to serve one hidden agenda or the other. Regards, Venu. On Sat, Jun 20, 2009 at 7:56 PM, anupam chakravartty wrote: > Dear all, > > I am surprised that the soothsayers among the readers who rush to rescue > their gods from being ridiculed are staying away from this discussion. Or > is > it too trivial to discuss such things? or is it because these are high > ideals that we are talking which actually doesnt work against the > primordial > instinct to human beings -- you scratch my back, i will do the same. some > take refuge in this primordial instinct and propagate their ideas. > > thanks anupam > > > On 6/20/09, Rakesh Iyer wrote: > > > > Dear Venu jee > > > > I feel the demarcating element here is the intentions of the actors > > concerned. If these intentions help the people, the poorest human being > as > > Gandhi jee said, then obviously it would be beneficial. If not, then > > obviously there may be some problem with it. For example, RSS > popularizing > > Hindutva is not going to help the poorest human being obviously, whereas > > when Ambedkar fights for the rights of Dalits who are poor indeed, so > that > > they can live with dignity in the society, obviously it can help the > poor, > > the downtrodden and give them political, social and economic empowerment, > > bring about their development and in my sense, make them happy, which is > > what development must ultimately aim at. > > > > Identity politics should aim at, as Anupam jee said, transforming oneself > > or > > improving the lot of one's own community but not at the expense of the > > others. And obviously, I agree that identity politics focuses on > > discontentment, but that discontentment should be at the bad condition > one > > is in, not converting that into an enemity factor against others, which > can > > tomorrow lead to violence. > > > > Regards > > > > Rakesh > > _________________________________________ > > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > > Critiques & Collaborations > > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > > subscribe in the subject header. > > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > subscribe in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> > -- http://venukm.blogspot.com http://www.shelfari.com/kmvenuannur http://kmvenuannur.livejournal.com From rakesh.rnbdj at gmail.com Sat Jun 20 23:29:52 2009 From: rakesh.rnbdj at gmail.com (Rakesh Iyer) Date: Sat, 20 Jun 2009 23:29:52 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Other Concerns - Corruption & PPP Message-ID: Dear all In continuation of my idea of also putting articles and commenting on issues other than identity, I now turn to corruption in this mail. This is a very shocking article, particularly as it points towards a former president and a role model for the Indian middle class, being indirectly involved in corruption and nefarious action, which I strongly believe should be investigated. Regards Rakesh * The Drip Starts Here * * Dial an EMRI ambulance? That's one costly call.* SAIKAT DATTA Refused to comment on his role as board chairman that resolved to keep politicians in "good humour". *A.P.J. Abdul Kalam, Former President* "EMRI is in touch with all sorts of citizens...for feedback on improving emergency responses in the PPP framework." *Venkat Changavalli, EMRI CEO* Resigned from EMRI but was part of Satyam’s reconstituted board. Refused to comment on EMRI or his role. *Kiran Karnik, Ex-NASSCOM chief* "Whoever drafted the proceedings is flippant or foolish. Building a hospital would be clear conflict of interest." *Jayaprakash Narayan, Loksatta founder* Tarun Das did not respond to queries; Krishna Palepu (right) said he "didn’t recall the discussion". *** The Emergency Management & Research Institute (EMRI) is a "not-for-profit professional" organisation which runs a much-lauded emergency ambulance service in nine states. It also has on its governing board such luminaries as former president A.P.J. Abdul Kalam, ex-ICICI chairman K.V. Kamath and ex-nasscom chief Kiran Karnik. But it appears that EMRI, floated by disgraced Satyam chairman Ramalinga Raju and his family in 2005, has indulged in clearly questionable practices. Documents accessed under the rti from the Union ministry of health and family welfare reveal shocking facts about EMRI and its impressive growth across the country in the last four years. Needless to say, EMRI has managed to wipe out any references to Ramalinga Raju. He had roped in the big names like former president Kalam and others to give it a high profile as it sought government funds—under private public partnership (PPP)—to start the hi-tech emergency ambulance service. The health ministry-released documents show that EMRI's management practices left a lot to be desired. Buried in the documents are the minutes of a governing board meeting held on October 20, 2008, at the EMRI campus in Hyderabad, chaired by none other than former president Abdul Kalam. Among the attendees were Raju, Kiran Karnik, Loksatta founder Dr Jayaprakash Narayan, CII chief mentor Tarun Das and Dr Krishna Palepu, senior professor at Harvard (the last three through video conferencing), and EMRI CEO Venkat Changavalli. While reviewing the performance and discussing EMRI's future plans, this is what the board summarised: - Be in touch with Opposition leaders in each state and keep them in good humour. - Be careful of competitors and their criticism and check factors to neutralise. - Carefully monitor local media and statements made by politicians. - Finalise plans to set up an emergency hospital at EMRI as a model. *Outlook* has quoted verbatim from the minutes of the meeting. The questionable clauses here is why EMRI would want to "stay in touch with Opposition leaders" in the states it was operating in? And what was the need to keep them in "good humour"? How exactly was EMRI planning to do this? And why should a non-profit outfit keep a watch on the competition? When contacted, none of the board members, including Kalam, Karnik and Das, offered any explanation. They either refused to comment or sidetracked the questions. CEO Changavalli's cryptic comment was that "EMRI is in touch with citizens from all walks of life to receive their feedback for improving emergency response services in the PPP framework". Another board member had a different explanation.Dr Jayaprakash Narayan of Loksatta, an ngo that works towards transparency, accountability and good governance had this gem to offer: "Clearly, whoever drafted the proceedings (of the meeting) is flippant or foolish. I do not recall the details of the discussion but the intent of the board is to make the EMRI initiative non-partisan, and to keep all political parties and civil society informed." Professor Krishna Palepu distanced himself from the proceedings, stating he was present through video-conferencing from Boston and only "listened to a small part of the meeting", and "did not recall the discussion". Li’l humour: Extracts from the minutes of the Oct 20, 2008, EMRI board meeting chaired by ex-prez Abdul Kalam Click here for large image Strangely, the members were also unwilling to comment on several other contentious issues. It is a fact that though Raju and family had promised "leadership, administrative and five per cent of the operational expenses of EMRI", none of that money actually came in. So how was EMRI's top management being paid astronomically high salaries running into several lakhs per month? Jayaprakash Narayan says the salaries "were never discussed or approved by the board". A health ministry study conducted by the National Health Systems Resource Centre is revealing here. It confirms that Raju and family have not put in the promised money for salaries and five per cent operational costs. "It has been clarified," the study states, "that such a contribution has not been made in any of the states (where EMRI operated its services)." So were funds from the state governments (which, under the PPP, were paying 95 per cent of EMRI's operational costs) being diverted to pay salaries? Only an official inquiry will throw up conclusive answers. Worse, the study also raised legitimate concerns about "insufficient transparency", since there were no members of the state governments on the board. It noted that EMRI would keep coming back for more public funds, which could not be denied since the state governments were now "in a position of having to comply under threat". In effect, EMRI could take the position that if monies were not sanctioned it would withdraw the ambulance services, which would raise a huge public outcry. It could literally hold the state to ransom. The study also pointed out that most of the MoUs EMRI signed with the states "have the provision of declaring it a monopoly provider". As a health ministry official explained, since it solely controlled ambulance services, EMRI could logically determine which hospital a patient is admitted to. Also, with a proposed fleet of 10,000 high-tech ambulances, the pharmaceuticals industry would also be wooing EMRI. As would the medical insurance sector. That's not all. An audit by the Rajasthan government of the funds given to EMRI shows that some of it was misused or unaccounted for. The audit, conducted by D.P. Khandelwal & Co, chartered accountants, found Rs 2 crore had been illegally diverted to another cash credit account. (EMRI claimed that it was moved to a Hyderabad-based bank to "ensure control of headquarters to exercise smooth functioning".) The audit also states that EMRI's procurement process was suspicious since tenders of different companies were received from the same fax number. "This gives rise to the doubt that these were arranged," the audit states. While the Satyam scam opened up a Pandora's box, no political leader in Andhra Pradesh or elsewhere has raised a demand for a thorough inquiry. Perhaps, EMRI's resolve to keep political leaders in "good humour" is paying off. ------------------------------ From rahul_capri at yahoo.com Sun Jun 21 00:33:58 2009 From: rahul_capri at yahoo.com (Rahul Asthana) Date: Sat, 20 Jun 2009 12:03:58 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Reader-list] Shahidul Alam detained by Indian Border Security Force Message-ID: <245925.89407.qm@web53611.mail.re2.yahoo.com> Dear Anupam, I repeat,I was not making an analogy between home and nation.Read this quote from Shuddha again- "I think the detention of any human being on the grounds that he is crossing an artificial, ephemeral, man-made border is an affront to our common humanity." I was implying by my question that there can be valid reasons for detention of a human being "on the grounds that he is crossing an artificial, ephemeral, man-made border." Hope this helps. Thanks Rahul --- On Sat, 6/20/09, anupam chakravartty wrote: > From: anupam chakravartty > Subject: Re: [Reader-list] Shahidul Alam detained by Indian Border Security Force > To: "sarai list" > Date: Saturday, June 20, 2009, 10:22 AM > Dear Rahul, > > "Do you think that homes should be locked? Do you think > that people should > be allowed unrestricted entry to other peoples homes at all > times?" > > what were you referring to when you posed this question to > shuddha and made > it publicly available to other readers on this list? a > burglary in your > house? in that case i think i misread this whole thread to > be borders and a > photographer, as many of the readers pointed out about the > incident being an > incursion and other such things. however, we were talking > about shahidul > alam. so if its a straw man, which is an informal fallacy > about > misrepresentation of opponent's argument then your are > committing the > fallacy of complex question when you posed the above > question. i mean anyone > would say a "no" to "Do you think that people should be > allowed unrestricted > entry to other peoples homes at all times?". But if this > same question is > used to pose, what some may call the larger debate, "Do you > think foreigners > should be allowed unrestricted entry to other nation > states?" you may get a > very different opinion. i personally have a problem with > such questions. > > thanks anupam > > > On 6/20/09, Rakesh Iyer > wrote: > > > Dear Shuddha > > > > First things first. Reading about encroachments on a > daily basis by people > > for living or for occupational purposes, I am not > naive or romantic to > > think > > that people follow laws. In fact, my belief is that in > each nation-state, > > or > > state-nation, people always want to break the law, and > it's the fear that > > the law may catch them, which makes them follow the > law. > > > > Second. Opening the borders for free movement of goods > and people is indeed > > a great idea. But what about the intentions of the > Pakistani and the Indian > > elite? We have a Pakistani elite (headed by the Army > there), whose basic > > intention is 'to bleed India with a thousand cuts', > and therefore some way > > or the other, terror attacks are taking place across > the nation. One may > > say > > that there is no proof of the fact that Pakistan is > behind attacks (even > > say > > 26/11), but my argument is simply this: how come when > diplomatic pressure > > was applied after 26/11, no terror attack has taken > place in India? > > > > Before that, terror attacks were common every 2-3 > months in one or the > > other > > part of the country. And in 2004-05 there were hardly > any terror attacks. > > It's October 2005 blasts in Delhi which started this > trend, and ironically > > this is the time when the peace process between India > and Pakistan seemed > > to > > have got stuck. How come relations with Pakistan and > timing of terror > > attacks are coincidental. > > > > Equally, I would not be surprised if the Indian elite > indulges in the same > > game (through RAW and other agencies), in the NWFP and > other areas of > > Pakistan. After all, the idea may be that internal > troubles in Pakistan > > force it to think about its' own existence rather than > concentrating on > > its' > > eastern neighbour. And who can forget that under > Indira Gandhi we did send > > spies to Pakistan. The only thing may be that RAW may > have declared it > > doesn't send spies, when it may actually do so. > > > > With this kind of a situation, opening the borders > without checks and > > balances is going to lead to disaster. And plus, you > need the people on > > both > > sides of the border backing it. Now the BPL population > in India is more > > concerned with its livelihood demands, so also the BPL > population in > > Pakistan. So are most of the people there, except the > elites. And the > > elites > > turn the way media and propaganda runs. So that's the > end of that move. > > > > Directly asking for radical moves is not going to give > us anything. This is > > something the British learnt in getting through trade > concessions in India > > and China before establishing their supremacy in both > countries for getting > > what they wanted. This is something the experiences of > Gandhi tell us. And > > this is equally something Obama is trying, in my > perception. And that's > > why, > > Shuddha jee, I feel you are being romantic. > > > > We don't want guns from either side to go across to > the other, we want > > butter. Therefore, to begin with, what we need to do > is to learn from > > Indo-China relationship. This means that we first > allow movement of goods > > (unfortunately, these have to be checked), to an > extent where trade is so > > much that interdependence forces both the elites to > shelve their current > > nefarious plans for once and for all. Secondly, we do > require the movement > > of people, so let us have bus services and train > services between the two > > countries. > > > > And may be it's now time that at least in Punjab (if > not in Kashmir), let > > us > > go for an border (with checks again) and allowing > people to visit each > > other. Equally let the two sides of Kashmiris visit > each other through bus > > services. What's the harm in that? > > > > For the other borders like Indo-Bangla (Bangladesh) > border too, we need to > > go on a state to state case, and to reach the final > step of open border, we > > must take steps or a leap depending on the situation. > For example, with > > Bhutan itself, why not start this at least? > > > > Different borders require different levels to begin > with, but the final > > goal > > is same. The only thing is that the steps have to be > tweaked to reach that > > goal. Otherwise, we may never begin at all. And we > need to do this. And > > that > > is why I feel we need to pressurize the Indian state > (being Indian > > citizens), to do this. I do believe that to go to > places you have mentioned > > in your other mail, you would have secured a passport > and a visa, and that > > you would have done as an Indian citizen. So also, > many facilities you > > would > > be accruing as an Indian citizen in the nation. > > > > Therefore, whether we like it or not, we are Indian > citizens (unfortunately > > or fortunately is one's own way of thinking about > this). What we do need to > > do, is to think beyond our own state and look at human > beings as one > > entity, > > not as Indians, Americans or Brazilians and thus > separate entities. (These > > are just identities on which people must not be > divided). And thus, we need > > to look at the final goal as this, but start from > rudimentary steps. > > Remember, we have to take all with us, for that is > what we refer to as > > 'inclusive development'. Otherwise, we can also shout > and those opposing us > > can also shout, and we will never move forward. > > > > Regards > > > > Rakesh > > _________________________________________ > > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the > city. > > Critiques & Collaborations > > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net > with > > subscribe in the subject header. > > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the > city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net > with subscribe in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> From rahul_capri at yahoo.com Sun Jun 21 00:38:16 2009 From: rahul_capri at yahoo.com (Rahul Asthana) Date: Sat, 20 Jun 2009 12:08:16 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Reader-list] India Is Racist, And Happy About It Message-ID: <309725.94809.qm@web53611.mail.re2.yahoo.com> http://www.outlookindia.com/full.asp?fodname=20090629&fname=Cover+Story+(F)&sid=4 A Black American's first-hand experience of footpath India: no one even wants to change Diepiriye Kuku | e-mail | one page format | feedback: send - read | In spite of friendship and love in private spaces, the Delhi public literally stops and stares. It is harrowing to constantly have children and adults tease, taunt, pick, poke and peer at you from the corner of their eyes, denying their own humanity as well as mine. Their aggressive, crude curiosity threatens to dominate unless disarmed by kindness, or met with equal aggression. Once I stood gazing at the giraffes at the Lucknow Zoo only to turn and see 50-odd families gawking at me rather than the exhibit. Parents abruptly withdrew infants that inquisitively wandered towards me. On a visit to the Lucknow zoo, people gawked more at me than at the exhibits. I felt like an exotic African creature-cum-spectacle, stirring fear and awe. Even my attempts to beguile the public through simple greetings or smiles are often not reciprocated. Instead, the look of wonder swells as if this were all part of the act and we were all playing our parts. Racism is never a personal experience. Racism in India is systematic and independent of the presence of foreigners of any hue. This climate permits and promotes this lawlessness and disdain for dark skin. Most Indian pop icons have light-damn-near-white skin. Several stars even promote skin-bleaching creams that promise to improve one’s popularity and career success. Matrimonial ads boast of fair, v. fair and v. very fair skin alongside foreign visas and advanced university degrees. Moreover, each time I visit one of Delhi’s clubhouses, I notice that I am the darkest person not wearing a work uniform. It’s unfair and ugly. Discrimination in Delhi surpasses the denial of courtesy. I have been denied visas, apartments, entrance to discos, attentiveness, kindness and the benefit of doubt. Further, the lack of neighbourliness exceeds what locals describe as normal for a capital already known for its coldness. My partner is white and I am black, facts of which the Indian public reminds us daily. Bank associates have denied me chai, while falling over to please my white friend. Mall shop attendants have denied me attentiveness, while mobbing my partner. Who knows what else is more quietly denied? "An African has come," a guard announced over the intercom as I showed up. Whites are afforded the luxury of their own names, but this careful attention to my presence was not new. ATM guards stand and salute my white friend, while one guard actually asked me why I had come to the bank machine as if I might have said that I was taking over his shift. It is shocking that people wear liberalism as a sign of modernity, yet revert to ultraconservatism when actually faced with difference. Cyberbullies have threatened my life on my YouTube videos that capture local gawking and eve-teasing. I was even fired from an international school for talking about homosociality in Africa on YouTube, and addressing a class about homophobia against kids after a student called me a ‘fag’. Outside of specific anchors of discourse such as Reservations, there is no consensus that discrimination is a redeemable social ill. This is the real issue with discrimination in India: her own citizens suffer and we are only encouraged to ignore situations that make us all feel powerless. Be it the mute-witnesses seeing racial difference for the first time, kids learning racism from their folks, or the blacks and northeasterners who feel victimised by the public, few operate from a position that believes in change. Living in India was a childhood dream that deepened with my growing understanding of India and America’s unique, shared history of non-violent revolution. Yet, in most nations, the path of ending gender, race and class discrimination is unpaved. In India, this path is still rural and rocky as if this nation has not decided the road even worthy.It is a footpath that we are left to tread individually. ------------------------------------------------------------------------ -------- (The writer is a Black American PhD student at the Delhi School of Economics.) From rahul_capri at yahoo.com Sun Jun 21 00:54:35 2009 From: rahul_capri at yahoo.com (Rahul Asthana) Date: Sat, 20 Jun 2009 12:24:35 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Reader-list] Shahidul Alam detained by Indian Border Security Force Message-ID: <820775.85332.qm@web53607.mail.re2.yahoo.com> Dear Shuddha, Please read my reply to Anupam.The analogy was not implied. I think that there can be valid reasons to enforce man made , ephemeral , artificial etc. borders. That catch-all reason alone is not enough to strike down the restriction for free flow of human beings between national borders. In principle there is nothing wrong or right about free flow of capital or human beings."Artificial, ephemeral, man-made" geographical and administrational borders are necessary,among other things because of the simple reason of accountability and manageability, as functional units for economic co-operation and security.Someone representing a particular geographic continuum is accountable and responsible for the decisions taken with respect to it. I want you to come up with some good reasons why you think the boundaries and definition of a nation state should not be observed. Let me repeat, saying that it is an "artificial, ephemeral, man-made border" , so it should be stricken down is not a good reason. Thanks Rahul --- On Sat, 6/20/09, Shuddhabrata Sengupta wrote: > From: Shuddhabrata Sengupta > Subject: Re: [Reader-list] Shahidul Alam detained by Indian Border Security Force > To: "Rahul Asthana" > Cc: "sarai list" , "anupam chakravartty" > Date: Saturday, June 20, 2009, 2:28 AM > > Dear Rahul,  > I have always felt quite at home in the world, > regardless of whether I was on the terrace of my Old > Rajendra Nagar house in New Delhi, which once housed > refugees from West Pakistan before it housed my migrant > parents and me (where I live), or I was on hilltop in > Damascus, or in a ruined factory in Warsaw, or on the border > between East and West Jerusalem. I do not sense a feeling of > being 'not at home' when I am not in my own country, > and there are many places in my own country, where I do not > feel quite as home as I would have liked to, for instance in > the wide, paranoiac, expansive and empty boulevards of > Lutyens Delhi. In Delhi, take me to Akbar Road, and I will > feel a foreigner (even a bit of an illegal migrant), leave > me in Karol Bagh, Chitli Qabar, Mehrauli, Khan Market or > Jungpura, and I will do just fine. Home, after all, is where > the heart is. And my heart is not in the Lutyens Bungalow > Zone of New Delhi.  > So I don't quite understand the analogy of > locked homes and fenced countries. After all, we lock our > homes, primarily against the possible attacks of our own > fellow citizens. So, since we lock our homes against our own > fellow citizens, logically, then, following your line of > thinking, should we not turn the whole country into one vast > prison, where everyone watches out for the danger that is > everybody else.We don't even have to look as far as the > next Bangladeshi. > Or, as my friends and I had reason to say in > another context, 'Is the outer wall of the detention > centre, the inner wall of the city?" > regards,  > Shuddha > > On 19-Jun-09, at 9:39 PM, Rahul Asthana > wrote: > > Dear > Anupam,Your > question is a straw man.I am not drawing any analogy between > nation and home.My question to Shuddha is based upon his > statement about artificial borders etc. > ThanksRahul > > Shuddhabrata > SenguptaThe Sarai Programme at > CSDSRaqs Media Collectiveshuddha at sarai.netwww.sarai.netwww.raqsmediacollective.net > > From shuddha at sarai.net Sun Jun 21 02:49:23 2009 From: shuddha at sarai.net (Shuddhabrata Sengupta) Date: Sun, 21 Jun 2009 02:49:23 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Shahidul Alam detained by Indian Border Security Force In-Reply-To: <820775.85332.qm@web53607.mail.re2.yahoo.com> References: <820775.85332.qm@web53607.mail.re2.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <9866EA9C-DA32-47CD-998B-3A6E2CE7B16D@sarai.net> Where exactly does the continuity of the nation state become the discontinuity of the border? Let's take the country currently known as Poland. In the twentieth century different bits of it have been in Russia, Germany, Lithuania and Slovakia. Today, Poland is part of the Schengen system and a part of the European Union. Over the last one hundred or so years, Poland has had its borders redefined in various ways. Until the early nineties of the twentieth century, it was impossible for some one from France to come to Poland without a strict visa system, but it was relatively easy for people from Vietnam to come to Poland as students and guest workers, today the situation is exactly the opposite. So, how exactly has the border acted in a way other than arbitrarily. What makes Vietnamese welcome, French unwelcome, and then vice versa across a matter of a few years? I can see your point about the fact that some units of management of space have to exist, but why do these have to operate on the basis of exclusion? What purposes does exclusion serve? What is the way in which priniciples of exclusion can be made fair and just? Can they be made fair and just? What is it that dictates, for instance, that Nepalis can at present live and work in India without visas, and that Bangladeshis cant? Finally, and this is a response to Rakesh. I have not heard people whom we normally nominate as the poor, complain about the presence of Bangladeshis in our city. For instance, Delhi has a large population of Bangladeshi migrant workers who live in squatter settlements. Their non-Bangladeshi neighbours who live in squatter settlements do not normally lead the climate of opinion that sees Bangladeshi immigrants as a problem. Frankly, they have neither the property, nor the entitlements to think of their Bangladeshi neigbours as encroachers, primarily because they are seen as encroachers themselves. The only people whom I have heard complain about the presence of Bangladeshis in Delhi are those with property and entitlement, to whom the average Bangladeshi constitutes no rivalrous threat. This is somewhat paradoxical, those who complain about the presence of Bangladeshis in Delhi are those who are clearly not in a position to be the competitiors for resources with Bangladeshis. This makes me wonder where exactly the antipathy stems from. My hunch is, prejudice, which is passed on as an altruistic defence of the poor with whom the carriers of the prejudices have nothing in common. Interesting, isnt it? best Shuddha On 21-Jun-09, at 12:54 AM, Rahul Asthana wrote: > > Dear Shuddha, > Please read my reply to Anupam.The analogy was not implied. > I think that there can be valid reasons to enforce man made , > ephemeral , artificial etc. borders. That catch-all reason alone is > not enough to strike down the restriction for free flow of human > beings between national borders. > In principle there is nothing wrong or right about free flow of > capital or human beings."Artificial, ephemeral, man-made" > geographical and administrational borders are necessary,among other > things because of the simple reason of accountability and > manageability, as functional units for economic co-operation and > security.Someone representing a particular geographic continuum is > accountable and responsible for the decisions taken with respect to > it. > I want you to come up with some good reasons why you think the > boundaries and definition of a nation state should not be observed. > Let me repeat, saying that it is an "artificial, ephemeral, man- > made border" , so it should be stricken down is not a good reason. > > Thanks > Rahul > > > --- On Sat, 6/20/09, Shuddhabrata Sengupta wrote: > >> From: Shuddhabrata Sengupta >> Subject: Re: [Reader-list] Shahidul Alam detained by Indian Border >> Security Force >> To: "Rahul Asthana" >> Cc: "sarai list" , "anupam chakravartty" >> >> Date: Saturday, June 20, 2009, 2:28 AM >> >> Dear Rahul, >> I have always felt quite at home in the world, >> regardless of whether I was on the terrace of my Old >> Rajendra Nagar house in New Delhi, which once housed >> refugees from West Pakistan before it housed my migrant >> parents and me (where I live), or I was on hilltop in >> Damascus, or in a ruined factory in Warsaw, or on the border >> between East and West Jerusalem. I do not sense a feeling of >> being 'not at home' when I am not in my own country, >> and there are many places in my own country, where I do not >> feel quite as home as I would have liked to, for instance in >> the wide, paranoiac, expansive and empty boulevards of >> Lutyens Delhi. In Delhi, take me to Akbar Road, and I will >> feel a foreigner (even a bit of an illegal migrant), leave >> me in Karol Bagh, Chitli Qabar, Mehrauli, Khan Market or >> Jungpura, and I will do just fine. Home, after all, is where >> the heart is. And my heart is not in the Lutyens Bungalow >> Zone of New Delhi. >> So I don't quite understand the analogy of >> locked homes and fenced countries. After all, we lock our >> homes, primarily against the possible attacks of our own >> fellow citizens. So, since we lock our homes against our own >> fellow citizens, logically, then, following your line of >> thinking, should we not turn the whole country into one vast >> prison, where everyone watches out for the danger that is >> everybody else.We don't even have to look as far as the >> next Bangladeshi. >> Or, as my friends and I had reason to say in >> another context, 'Is the outer wall of the detention >> centre, the inner wall of the city?" >> regards, >> Shuddha >> >> On 19-Jun-09, at 9:39 PM, Rahul Asthana >> wrote: >> >> Dear >> Anupam,Your >> question is a straw man.I am not drawing any analogy between >> nation and home.My question to Shuddha is based upon his >> statement about artificial borders etc. >> ThanksRahul >> >> Shuddhabrata >> SenguptaThe Sarai Programme at >> CSDSRaqs Media >> Collectiveshuddha at sarai.netwww.sarai.netwww.raqsmediacollective.net >> >> > > > Shuddhabrata Sengupta The Sarai Programme at CSDS Raqs Media Collective shuddha at sarai.net www.sarai.net www.raqsmediacollective.net From rahul_capri at yahoo.com Sun Jun 21 03:09:51 2009 From: rahul_capri at yahoo.com (Rahul Asthana) Date: Sat, 20 Jun 2009 14:39:51 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Reader-list] Shahidul Alam detained by Indian Border Security Force Message-ID: <716102.73480.qm@web53612.mail.re2.yahoo.com> 1. So Shuddha, I believe that we are in agreement that Artificial, ephemeral, man-made borders are necessary. 2.Now I think your issue is with the selective immigration policies of nations.These immigration policies may be based on the following reasons a)reciprocation or bi-lateral cooperation b)perceived security threat by the citizens of a particular nation c)Diplomatic relations between two nations d) Border disputes between two nations etc. I do not claim this to be a comprehensive list. Does this answer your question? Thanks Rahul --- On Sun, 6/21/09, Shuddhabrata Sengupta wrote: > From: Shuddhabrata Sengupta > Subject: Re: [Reader-list] Shahidul Alam detained by Indian Border Security Force > To: "Rahul Asthana" > Cc: "sarai list" , "anupam chakravartty" > Date: Sunday, June 21, 2009, 2:49 AM > > Where exactly does the continuity of the nation state > become the discontinuity of the border? Let's take the > country currently known as Poland. In the twentieth century > different bits of it have been in Russia, Germany, Lithuania > and Slovakia. Today, Poland is part of the Schengen system > and a part of the European Union. Over the last one hundred > or so years, Poland has had its borders redefined in various > ways. Until the early nineties of the twentieth century, it > was impossible for some one from France to come to Poland > without a strict visa system, but it was relatively easy for > people from Vietnam to come to Poland as students and guest > workers, today the situation is exactly the opposite. So, > how exactly has the border acted in a way other than > arbitrarily. What makes Vietnamese welcome, French > unwelcome, and then vice versa across a matter of a few > years?  > I can see your point about the fact that some > units of management of space have to exist, but why do these > have to operate on the basis of exclusion? What purposes > does exclusion serve? What is the way in which priniciples > of exclusion can be made fair and just? Can they be made > fair and just?  > What is it that dictates, for instance, that > Nepalis can at present live and work in India without visas, > and that Bangladeshis cant?  > Finally, and this is a response to Rakesh. I > have not heard people whom we normally nominate as the poor, > complain about the presence of Bangladeshis in our city. For > instance, Delhi has a large population of Bangladeshi > migrant workers who live in squatter settlements. Their > non-Bangladeshi neighbours who live in squatter settlements > do not normally lead the climate of opinion that sees > Bangladeshi immigrants as a problem. Frankly, they have > neither the property, nor the entitlements to think of their > Bangladeshi neigbours as encroachers, primarily because they > are seen as encroachers themselves. The only people whom I > have heard complain about the presence of Bangladeshis in > Delhi are those with property and entitlement, to whom the > average Bangladeshi constitutes no rivalrous > threat.  > This is somewhat paradoxical, those who complain > about the presence of Bangladeshis in Delhi are those who > are clearly not in a position to be the competitiors for > resources with Bangladeshis. This makes me wonder where > exactly the antipathy stems from. My hunch is, prejudice, > which is passed on as an altruistic defence of the poor with > whom the carriers of the prejudices have nothing in common. > Interesting, isnt it?  > best > Shuddha > > On 21-Jun-09, at 12:54 AM, Rahul > Asthana wrote: > > Dear > Shuddha,Please > read my reply to Anupam.The analogy was not > implied.I > think that there can be valid reasons to enforce man made , > ephemeral , artificial etc. borders. That catch-all reason > alone is not enough to strike down the restriction for free > flow of human beings between national borders. In > principle there is nothing wrong or right about free flow of > capital or human beings."Artificial, ephemeral, > man-made" geographical and administrational borders are > necessary,among other things because of the simple reason of > accountability and manageability, as functional units for > economic co-operation and security.Someone representing a > particular geographic continuum is accountable and > responsible for the decisions taken with respect to > it.I > want you to come up with some good reasons why you think the > boundaries and definition of a nation state should not be > observed. Let me repeat, saying that it is an > "artificial, ephemeral, man-made border" , so it > should be stricken down is not a good reason. > ThanksRahul > > --- > On Sat, 6/20/09, Shuddhabrata Sengupta > wrote: > From: > Shuddhabrata Sengupta Subject: > Re: [Reader-list] Shahidul Alam detained by Indian Border > Security ForceTo: > "Rahul Asthana" Cc: > "sarai list" , > "anupam chakravartty" Date: > Saturday, June 20, 2009, 2:28 AM >  Dear > Rahul, I > have always felt quite at home in the world,regardless > of whether I was on the terrace of my OldRajendra > Nagar house in New Delhi, which once housedrefugees > from West Pakistan before it housed my migrantparents > and me (where I live), or I was on hilltop inDamascus, > or in a ruined factory in Warsaw, or on the borderbetween > East and West Jerusalem. I do not sense a feeling > ofbeing > 'not at home' when I am not in my own > country,and > there are many places in my own country, where I do > notfeel > quite as home as I would have liked to, for instance > inthe > wide, paranoiac, expansive and empty boulevards ofLutyens > Delhi. In Delhi, take me to Akbar Road, and I willfeel > a foreigner (even a bit of an illegal migrant), > leaveme > in Karol Bagh, Chitli Qabar, Mehrauli, Khan Market > orJungpura, > and I will do just fine. Home, after all, is wherethe > heart is. And my heart is not in the Lutyens > BungalowZone > of New Delhi. So > I don't quite understand the analogy oflocked > homes and fenced countries. After all, we lock ourhomes, > primarily against the possible attacks of our ownfellow > citizens. So, since we lock our homes against our > ownfellow > citizens, logically, then, following your line ofthinking, > should we not turn the whole country into one vastprison, > where everyone watches out for the danger that iseverybody > else.We don't even have to look as far as thenext > Bangladeshi.Or, > as my friends and I had reason to say inanother > context, 'Is the outer wall of the detentioncentre, > the inner wall of the city?"regards, Shuddha > On > 19-Jun-09, at 9:39 PM, Rahul Asthanawrote: > DearAnupam,Yourquestion > is a straw man.I am not drawing any analogy > betweennation > and home.My question to Shuddha is based upon hisstatement > about artificial borders etc.ThanksRahul >  ShuddhabrataSenguptaThe > Sarai Programme atCSDSRaqs > Media Collectiveshuddha at sarai.netwww.sarai.netwww.raqsmediacollective.net > > > > > > Shuddhabrata > SenguptaThe Sarai Programme at > CSDSRaqs Media Collectiveshuddha at sarai.netwww.sarai.netwww.raqsmediacollective.net > > From shuddha at sarai.net Sun Jun 21 03:22:53 2009 From: shuddha at sarai.net (Shuddhabrata Sengupta) Date: Sun, 21 Jun 2009 03:22:53 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Shahidul Alam detained by Indian Border Security Force In-Reply-To: <716102.73480.qm@web53612.mail.re2.yahoo.com> References: <716102.73480.qm@web53612.mail.re2.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <14085449-7CE4-4AAB-80E5-51FABD0BE0D7@sarai.net> No, I do not think we are in agreement at all. The example of Poland which I gave demonstrates how arbitrary the principles of exclusion are and have been historically. There is nothing 'necessary' about the decisions taken at the Polish border. If these decisions can be reversed one way or another, so easily, it proves that there is nothing inherently necessary to them at all. They are contingent. The whole idea of the nation state is contingent on the historical circumstances that have developed since the treaty of Westphalia outlined the beginnings of the modern state system. Being contingent, they are subject to fundamental change. Today, at a time when nothing from the fluctuations of the financial system to the question of climate change can be addressed at national levels, I find it odd that some of us can still cling on to the fetish of borders and nation states as if they were 'necessary'. I find that clinging 'idealistic'. it seems to fly in the face of the actual objective structural realities of the contemporary world. As for your conditions, each one of them can be unpicked. There are greater if not more 'security threats' from the citizens of a given nation state to itself, than there are from the citizens of other states. If that is so, how far inwards should the protocols of the 'border' and its exclusionary principles be drawn? Reciprocity is not necessarily the basis for international relations, as demonstrated by the simple case of the utterly un-reciprocal relationships that obtain at the US Mexico border. Diplomatic relationships have barely anything to do with the situation at border controls. India has full fledged diplomatic relationships with Pakistan and Bangladesh, and yet, this does not influence the humiliations that Indians, Pakistanis and Bangladeshis have to face in the hands of each other's border authorities. India has border disputes with China, Pakistan and with Bangladesh, and yet, refugees from Chinese controlled TIbet have had an easier time getting into and staying in India than have people from say, Bangladesh. So clearly, border disputes are not the crucial determining factor. Lets face it. The reason why people do not like having to deal with Bangladeshis has much more to do with prejudice than it has to do with realpolitik. regards Shuddha As far as the principles outlined by you are concerned - On 21-Jun-09, at 3:09 AM, Rahul Asthana wrote: > > 1. So Shuddha, I believe that we are in agreement that Artificial, > ephemeral, man-made borders are necessary. > > 2.Now I think your issue is with the selective immigration policies > of nations.These immigration policies may be based on the following > reasons > a)reciprocation or bi-lateral cooperation > b)perceived security threat by the citizens of a particular nation > c)Diplomatic relations between two nations > d) Border disputes between two nations etc. > I do not claim this to be a comprehensive list. > Does this answer your question? > > Thanks > Rahul > > --- On Sun, 6/21/09, Shuddhabrata Sengupta wrote: > >> From: Shuddhabrata Sengupta >> Subject: Re: [Reader-list] Shahidul Alam detained by Indian Border >> Security Force >> To: "Rahul Asthana" >> Cc: "sarai list" , "anupam chakravartty" >> >> Date: Sunday, June 21, 2009, 2:49 AM >> >> Where exactly does the continuity of the nation state >> become the discontinuity of the border? Let's take the >> country currently known as Poland. In the twentieth century >> different bits of it have been in Russia, Germany, Lithuania >> and Slovakia. Today, Poland is part of the Schengen system >> and a part of the European Union. Over the last one hundred >> or so years, Poland has had its borders redefined in various >> ways. Until the early nineties of the twentieth century, it >> was impossible for some one from France to come to Poland >> without a strict visa system, but it was relatively easy for >> people from Vietnam to come to Poland as students and guest >> workers, today the situation is exactly the opposite. So, >> how exactly has the border acted in a way other than >> arbitrarily. What makes Vietnamese welcome, French >> unwelcome, and then vice versa across a matter of a few >> years? >> I can see your point about the fact that some >> units of management of space have to exist, but why do these >> have to operate on the basis of exclusion? What purposes >> does exclusion serve? What is the way in which priniciples >> of exclusion can be made fair and just? Can they be made >> fair and just? >> What is it that dictates, for instance, that >> Nepalis can at present live and work in India without visas, >> and that Bangladeshis cant? >> Finally, and this is a response to Rakesh. I >> have not heard people whom we normally nominate as the poor, >> complain about the presence of Bangladeshis in our city. For >> instance, Delhi has a large population of Bangladeshi >> migrant workers who live in squatter settlements. Their >> non-Bangladeshi neighbours who live in squatter settlements >> do not normally lead the climate of opinion that sees >> Bangladeshi immigrants as a problem. Frankly, they have >> neither the property, nor the entitlements to think of their >> Bangladeshi neigbours as encroachers, primarily because they >> are seen as encroachers themselves. The only people whom I >> have heard complain about the presence of Bangladeshis in >> Delhi are those with property and entitlement, to whom the >> average Bangladeshi constitutes no rivalrous >> threat. >> This is somewhat paradoxical, those who complain >> about the presence of Bangladeshis in Delhi are those who >> are clearly not in a position to be the competitiors for >> resources with Bangladeshis. This makes me wonder where >> exactly the antipathy stems from. My hunch is, prejudice, >> which is passed on as an altruistic defence of the poor with >> whom the carriers of the prejudices have nothing in common. >> Interesting, isnt it? >> best >> Shuddha >> >> On 21-Jun-09, at 12:54 AM, Rahul >> Asthana wrote: >> >> Dear >> Shuddha,Please >> read my reply to Anupam.The analogy was not >> implied.I >> think that there can be valid reasons to enforce man made , >> ephemeral , artificial etc. borders. That catch-all reason >> alone is not enough to strike down the restriction for free >> flow of human beings between national borders. In >> principle there is nothing wrong or right about free flow of >> capital or human beings."Artificial, ephemeral, >> man-made" geographical and administrational borders are >> necessary,among other things because of the simple reason of >> accountability and manageability, as functional units for >> economic co-operation and security.Someone representing a >> particular geographic continuum is accountable and >> responsible for the decisions taken with respect to >> it.I >> want you to come up with some good reasons why you think the >> boundaries and definition of a nation state should not be >> observed. Let me repeat, saying that it is an >> "artificial, ephemeral, man-made border" , so it >> should be stricken down is not a good reason. >> ThanksRahul >> >> --- >> On Sat, 6/20/09, Shuddhabrata Sengupta >> wrote: >> From: >> Shuddhabrata Sengupta Subject: >> Re: [Reader-list] Shahidul Alam detained by Indian Border >> Security ForceTo: >> "Rahul Asthana" Cc: >> "sarai list" , >> "anupam chakravartty" Date: >> Saturday, June 20, 2009, 2:28 AM >> Dear >> Rahul, I >> have always felt quite at home in the world,regardless >> of whether I was on the terrace of my OldRajendra >> Nagar house in New Delhi, which once housedrefugees >> from West Pakistan before it housed my migrantparents >> and me (where I live), or I was on hilltop inDamascus, >> or in a ruined factory in Warsaw, or on the borderbetween >> East and West Jerusalem. I do not sense a feeling >> ofbeing >> 'not at home' when I am not in my own >> country,and >> there are many places in my own country, where I do >> notfeel >> quite as home as I would have liked to, for instance >> inthe >> wide, paranoiac, expansive and empty boulevards ofLutyens >> Delhi. In Delhi, take me to Akbar Road, and I willfeel >> a foreigner (even a bit of an illegal migrant), >> leaveme >> in Karol Bagh, Chitli Qabar, Mehrauli, Khan Market >> orJungpura, >> and I will do just fine. Home, after all, is wherethe >> heart is. And my heart is not in the Lutyens >> BungalowZone >> of New Delhi. So >> I don't quite understand the analogy oflocked >> homes and fenced countries. After all, we lock ourhomes, >> primarily against the possible attacks of our ownfellow >> citizens. So, since we lock our homes against our >> ownfellow >> citizens, logically, then, following your line ofthinking, >> should we not turn the whole country into one vastprison, >> where everyone watches out for the danger that iseverybody >> else.We don't even have to look as far as thenext >> Bangladeshi.Or, >> as my friends and I had reason to say inanother >> context, 'Is the outer wall of the detentioncentre, >> the inner wall of the city?"regards, Shuddha >> On >> 19-Jun-09, at 9:39 PM, Rahul Asthanawrote: >> DearAnupam,Yourquestion >> is a straw man.I am not drawing any analogy >> betweennation >> and home.My question to Shuddha is based upon hisstatement >> about artificial borders etc.ThanksRahul >> ShuddhabrataSenguptaThe >> Sarai Programme atCSDSRaqs >> Media >> Collectiveshuddha at sarai.netwww.sarai.netwww.raqsmediacollective.net >> >> >> >> >> >> Shuddhabrata >> SenguptaThe Sarai Programme at >> CSDSRaqs Media >> Collectiveshuddha at sarai.netwww.sarai.netwww.raqsmediacollective.net >> >> > > > Shuddhabrata Sengupta The Sarai Programme at CSDS Raqs Media Collective shuddha at sarai.net www.sarai.net www.raqsmediacollective.net From rahul_capri at yahoo.com Sun Jun 21 03:51:04 2009 From: rahul_capri at yahoo.com (Rahul Asthana) Date: Sat, 20 Jun 2009 15:21:04 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Reader-list] Shahidul Alam detained by Indian Border Security Force Message-ID: <731804.97584.qm@web53607.mail.re2.yahoo.com> 1. Please clarify how the process of definition of a nation is linked with your argument of discarding "artificial, ephemeral, man-made borders". Are you saying that "artificial, ephemeral, man-made borders" should be discarded because they are arbitrary? 2. I did not imply by my earlier email that every principle of immigration can be implied to every immigration relation between two nations.So you do not need to disprove that by giving counterexamples. 3. "Lets face it. The reason why people do not like having to deal with Bangladeshis has much more to do with prejudice than it has to do with realpolitik." I personally have no problem with Bangladeshis.I have nothing more to add on this particular point. Thanks Rahul --- On Sun, 6/21/09, Shuddhabrata Sengupta wrote: > From: Shuddhabrata Sengupta > Subject: Re: [Reader-list] Shahidul Alam detained by Indian Border Security Force > To: "Rahul Asthana" > Cc: "sarai list" , "anupam chakravartty" > Date: Sunday, June 21, 2009, 3:22 AM > > No, I do not think we are in agreement at all. The example > of Poland which I gave demonstrates how arbitrary the > principles of exclusion are and have been historically. > There is nothing 'necessary' about the decisions > taken at the Polish border. If these decisions can be > reversed one way or another, so easily, it proves that there > is nothing inherently necessary to them at all. They are > contingent. The whole idea of the nation state is contingent > on the historical circumstances that have developed since > the treaty of Westphalia outlined the beginnings of the > modern state system. Being contingent, they are subject to > fundamental change. Today, at a time when nothing from the > fluctuations of the financial system to the question of > climate change can be addressed at national levels, I find > it odd that some of us can still cling on to the fetish of > borders and nation states as if they were > 'necessary'.  > I find that clinging 'idealistic'. it > seems to fly in the face of the actual objective structural > realities of the contemporary world.  > As for your conditions, each one of them can be > unpicked.  > There are greater if not more 'security > threats' from the citizens of a given nation state to > itself, than there are from the citizens of other states. If > that is so, how far inwards should the protocols of the > 'border' and its exclusionary principles be > drawn?  > Reciprocity is not necessarily the basis for > international relations, as demonstrated by the simple case > of the utterly un-reciprocal relationships that obtain at > the US Mexico border.  > Diplomatic relationships have barely anything to > do with the situation at border controls. India has full > fledged diplomatic relationships with Pakistan and > Bangladesh, and yet, this does not influence the > humiliations that Indians, Pakistanis and Bangladeshis have > to face in the hands of each other's border > authorities.  > India has border disputes with China, Pakistan > and with Bangladesh, and yet, refugees from Chinese > controlled TIbet have had an easier time getting into and > staying in India than have people from say, Bangladesh. So > clearly, border disputes are not the crucial determining > factor.  > Lets face it. The reason why people do not like > having to deal with Bangladeshis has much more to do with > prejudice than it has to do with > realpolitik.  > regards > Shuddha > > As far as the principles outlined by you are concerned -  > On 21-Jun-09, at 3:09 AM, Rahul Asthana > wrote: > > 1. > So Shuddha, I believe that we are in agreement that > Artificial, ephemeral, man-made borders are > necessary. > 2.Now > I think your issue is with the selective immigration > policies of nations.These immigration policies may be based > on the following reasons a)reciprocation > or bi-lateral cooperationb)perceived > security threat by the citizens of a particular > nationc)Diplomatic > relations between two nationsd) > Border disputes between two nations etc.I > do not claim this to be a comprehensive list. Does > this answer your question?  > ThanksRahul > --- > On Sun, 6/21/09, Shuddhabrata Sengupta > wrote: > From: > Shuddhabrata Sengupta Subject: > Re: [Reader-list] Shahidul Alam detained by Indian Border > Security ForceTo: > "Rahul Asthana" Cc: > "sarai list" , > "anupam chakravartty" Date: > Sunday, June 21, 2009, 2:49 AM > Where > exactly does the continuity of the nation statebecome > the discontinuity of the border? Let's take > thecountry > currently known as Poland. In the twentieth > centurydifferent > bits of it have been in Russia, Germany, Lithuaniaand > Slovakia. Today, Poland is part of the Schengen > systemand > a part of the European Union. Over the last one > hundredor > so years, Poland has had its borders redefined in > variousways. > Until the early nineties of the twentieth century, > itwas > impossible for some one from France to come to > Polandwithout > a strict visa system, but it was relatively easy > forpeople > from Vietnam to come to Poland as students and > guestworkers, > today the situation is exactly the opposite. So,how > exactly has the border acted in a way other thanarbitrarily. > What makes Vietnamese welcome, Frenchunwelcome, > and then vice versa across a matter of a fewyears? I > can see your point about the fact that someunits > of management of space have to exist, but why do > thesehave > to operate on the basis of exclusion? What > purposesdoes > exclusion serve? What is the way in which > priniciplesof > exclusion can be made fair and just? Can they be > madefair > and just? What > is it that dictates, for instance, thatNepalis > can at present live and work in India without > visas,and > that Bangladeshis cant? Finally, > and this is a response to Rakesh. Ihave > not heard people whom we normally nominate as the > poor,complain > about the presence of Bangladeshis in our city. > Forinstance, > Delhi has a large population of Bangladeshimigrant > workers who live in squatter settlements. Theirnon-Bangladeshi > neighbours who live in squatter settlementsdo > not normally lead the climate of opinion that seesBangladeshi > immigrants as a problem. Frankly, they haveneither > the property, nor the entitlements to think of > theirBangladeshi > neigbours as encroachers, primarily because theyare > seen as encroachers themselves. The only people whom > Ihave > heard complain about the presence of Bangladeshis > inDelhi > are those with property and entitlement, to whom > theaverage > Bangladeshi constitutes no rivalrousthreat. This > is somewhat paradoxical, those who complainabout > the presence of Bangladeshis in Delhi are those > whoare > clearly not in a position to be the competitiors > forresources > with Bangladeshis. This makes me wonder whereexactly > the antipathy stems from. My hunch is, prejudice,which > is passed on as an altruistic defence of the poor > withwhom > the carriers of the prejudices have nothing in > common.Interesting, > isnt it? bestShuddha > On > 21-Jun-09, at 12:54 AM, RahulAsthana > wrote: > DearShuddha,Pleaseread > my reply to Anupam.The analogy was notimplied.Ithink > that there can be valid reasons to enforce man made > ,ephemeral > , artificial etc. borders. That catch-all reasonalone > is not enough to strike down the restriction for > freeflow > of human beings between national borders. Inprinciple > there is nothing wrong or right about free flow ofcapital > or human beings."Artificial, ephemeral,man-made" > geographical and administrational borders arenecessary,among > other things because of the simple reason ofaccountability > and manageability, as functional units foreconomic > co-operation and security.Someone representing aparticular > geographic continuum is accountable andresponsible > for the decisions taken with respect toit.Iwant > you to come up with some good reasons why you think > theboundaries > and definition of a nation state should not beobserved. > Let me repeat, saying that it is an"artificial, > ephemeral, man-made border" , so itshould > be stricken down is not a good reason.ThanksRahul > ---On > Sat, 6/20/09, Shuddhabrata Sengupta wrote: From:Shuddhabrata > Sengupta Subject:Re: > [Reader-list] Shahidul Alam detained by Indian > BorderSecurity > ForceTo:"Rahul > Asthana" Cc:"sarai > list" ,"anupam > chakravartty" Date:Saturday, > June 20, 2009, 2:28 AM DearRahul, Ihave > always felt quite at home in the world,regardlessof > whether I was on the terrace of my OldRajendraNagar > house in New Delhi, which once housedrefugeesfrom > West Pakistan before it housed my migrantparentsand > me (where I live), or I was on hilltop inDamascus,or > in a ruined factory in Warsaw, or on the > borderbetweenEast > and West Jerusalem. I do not sense a feelingofbeing'not > at home' when I am not in my owncountry,andthere > are many places in my own country, where I donotfeelquite > as home as I would have liked to, for instanceinthewide, > paranoiac, expansive and empty boulevards > ofLutyensDelhi. > In Delhi, take me to Akbar Road, and I willfeela > foreigner (even a bit of an illegal migrant),leavemein > Karol Bagh, Chitli Qabar, Mehrauli, Khan MarketorJungpura,and > I will do just fine. Home, after all, is wheretheheart > is. And my heart is not in the LutyensBungalowZoneof > New Delhi. SoI > don't quite understand the analogy oflockedhomes > and fenced countries. After all, we lock ourhomes,primarily > against the possible attacks of our ownfellowcitizens. > So, since we lock our homes against ourownfellowcitizens, > logically, then, following your line ofthinking,should > we not turn the whole country into one vastprison,where > everyone watches out for the danger that > iseverybodyelse.We > don't even have to look as far as thenextBangladeshi.Or,as > my friends and I had reason to say inanothercontext, > 'Is the outer wall of the detentioncentre,the > inner wall of the city?"regards, ShuddhaOn19-Jun-09, > at 9:39 PM, Rahul Asthanawrote:DearAnupam,Yourquestionis > a straw man.I am not drawing any analogybetweennationand > home.My question to Shuddha is based upon > hisstatementabout > artificial borders etc.ThanksRahul ShuddhabrataSenguptaTheSarai > Programme atCSDSRaqsMedia > Collectiveshuddha at sarai.netwww.sarai.netwww.raqsmediacollective.net > > > > >  ShuddhabrataSenguptaThe > Sarai Programme atCSDSRaqs > Media Collectiveshuddha at sarai.netwww.sarai.netwww.raqsmediacollective.net > > > > > > Shuddhabrata > SenguptaThe Sarai Programme at > CSDSRaqs Media Collectiveshuddha at sarai.netwww.sarai.netwww.raqsmediacollective.net > > From rahul_capri at yahoo.com Sun Jun 21 03:55:55 2009 From: rahul_capri at yahoo.com (Rahul Asthana) Date: Sat, 20 Jun 2009 15:25:55 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Reader-list] Shahidul Alam detained by Indian Border Security Force Message-ID: <740432.32400.qm@web53609.mail.re2.yahoo.com> P.S. Would it be logical to assume that you would not have a problem with immigration restrictions if they were based on realpolitik? --- On Sun, 6/21/09, Rahul Asthana wrote: > From: Rahul Asthana > Subject: Re: [Reader-list] Shahidul Alam detained by Indian Border Security Force > To: "Shuddhabrata Sengupta" > Cc: "sarai list" > Date: Sunday, June 21, 2009, 3:51 AM > > 1. Please clarify how the process of definition of a nation > is linked with your argument of discarding "artificial, > ephemeral, man-made borders". > Are you saying that "artificial, ephemeral, man-made > borders" should be discarded because they are arbitrary? > > 2. I did not imply by my earlier email that every principle > of immigration can be implied to every immigration relation > between two nations.So you do not need to disprove that by > giving counterexamples. > > 3. "Lets face it. The reason why people do not like having > to deal with Bangladeshis has much more to do with  > prejudice than it has to do with > realpolitik." > I personally have no problem with Bangladeshis.I have > nothing more to add on this particular point. > > Thanks > Rahul > > > > > > > > --- On Sun, 6/21/09, Shuddhabrata Sengupta > wrote: > > > From: Shuddhabrata Sengupta > > Subject: Re: [Reader-list] Shahidul Alam detained by > Indian Border Security Force > > To: "Rahul Asthana" > > Cc: "sarai list" , > "anupam chakravartty" > > Date: Sunday, June 21, 2009, 3:22 AM > > > > No, I do not think we are in agreement at all. The > example > > of Poland which I gave demonstrates how arbitrary the > > principles of exclusion are and have been > historically. > > There is nothing 'necessary' about the decisions > > taken at the Polish border. If these decisions can be > > reversed one way or another, so easily, it proves that > there > > is nothing inherently necessary to them at all. They > are > > contingent. The whole idea of the nation state is > contingent > > on the historical circumstances that have developed > since > > the treaty of Westphalia outlined the beginnings of > the > > modern state system. Being contingent, they are > subject to > > fundamental change. Today, at a time when nothing from > the > > fluctuations of the financial system to the question > of > > climate change can be addressed at national levels, I > find > > it odd that some of us can still cling on to the > fetish of > > borders and nation states as if they were > > 'necessary'.  > > I find that clinging 'idealistic'. it > > seems to fly in the face of the actual objective > structural > > realities of the contemporary world.  > > As for your conditions, each one of them can be > > unpicked.  > > There are greater if not more 'security > > threats' from the citizens of a given nation state to > > itself, than there are from the citizens of other > states. If > > that is so, how far inwards should the protocols of > the > > 'border' and its exclusionary principles be > > drawn?  > > Reciprocity is not necessarily the basis for > > international relations, as demonstrated by the simple > case > > of the utterly un-reciprocal relationships that obtain > at > > the US Mexico border.  > > Diplomatic relationships have barely anything to > > do with the situation at border controls. India has > full > > fledged diplomatic relationships with Pakistan and > > Bangladesh, and yet, this does not influence the > > humiliations that Indians, Pakistanis and Bangladeshis > have > > to face in the hands of each other's border > > authorities.  > > India has border disputes with China, Pakistan > > and with Bangladesh, and yet, refugees from Chinese > > controlled TIbet have had an easier time getting into > and > > staying in India than have people from say, > Bangladesh. So > > clearly, border disputes are not the crucial > determining > > factor.  > > Lets face it. The reason why people do not like > > having to deal with Bangladeshis has much more to do > with > > prejudice than it has to do with > > realpolitik.  > > regards > > Shuddha > > > > > As far as the principles outlined by you are concerned -  > > On 21-Jun-09, at 3:09 AM, Rahul Asthana > > wrote: > > > > 1. > > So Shuddha, I believe that we are in agreement that > > Artificial, ephemeral, man-made borders are > > necessary. > > 2.Now > > I think your issue is with the selective immigration > > policies of nations.These immigration policies may be > based > > on the following reasons a)reciprocation > > or bi-lateral cooperationb)perceived > > security threat by the citizens of a particular > > nationc)Diplomatic > > relations between two nationsd) > > Border disputes between two nations etc.I > > do not claim this to be a comprehensive list. Does > > this answer your question?  > > ThanksRahul > > --- > > On Sun, 6/21/09, Shuddhabrata Sengupta > > wrote: > >  From: > > Shuddhabrata Sengupta Subject: > > Re: [Reader-list] Shahidul Alam detained by Indian > Border > > Security ForceTo: > > "Rahul Asthana" Cc: > > "sarai list" , > > "anupam chakravartty" Date: > > Sunday, June 21, 2009, 2:49 AM > > Where > > exactly does the continuity of the nation statebecome > > the discontinuity of the border? Let's take > > thecountry > > currently known as Poland. In the twentieth > > centurydifferent > > bits of it have been in Russia, Germany, Lithuaniaand > > Slovakia. Today, Poland is part of the Schengen > > systemand > > a part of the European Union. Over the last one > > hundredor > > so years, Poland has had its borders redefined in > > variousways. > > Until the early nineties of the twentieth century, > > itwas > > impossible for some one from France to come to > > Polandwithout > > a strict visa system, but it was relatively easy > > forpeople > > from Vietnam to come to Poland as students and > > guestworkers, > > today the situation is exactly the opposite. So,how > > exactly has the border acted in a way other > thanarbitrarily. > > What makes Vietnamese welcome, Frenchunwelcome, > > and then vice versa across a matter of a fewyears? I > > can see your point about the fact that someunits > > of management of space have to exist, but why do > > thesehave > > to operate on the basis of exclusion? What > > purposesdoes > > exclusion serve? What is the way in which > > priniciplesof > > exclusion can be made fair and just? Can they be > > madefair > > and just? What > > is it that dictates, for instance, thatNepalis > > can at present live and work in India without > > visas,and > > that Bangladeshis cant? Finally, > > and this is a response to Rakesh. Ihave > > not heard people whom we normally nominate as the > > poor,complain > > about the presence of Bangladeshis in our city. > > Forinstance, > > Delhi has a large population of Bangladeshimigrant > > workers who live in squatter settlements. > Theirnon-Bangladeshi > > neighbours who live in squatter settlementsdo > > not normally lead the climate of opinion that > seesBangladeshi > > immigrants as a problem. Frankly, they haveneither > > the property, nor the entitlements to think of > > theirBangladeshi > > neigbours as encroachers, primarily because theyare > > seen as encroachers themselves. The only people whom > > Ihave > > heard complain about the presence of Bangladeshis > > inDelhi > > are those with property and entitlement, to whom > > theaverage > > Bangladeshi constitutes no rivalrousthreat. This > > is somewhat paradoxical, those who complainabout > > the presence of Bangladeshis in Delhi are those > > whoare > > clearly not in a position to be the competitiors > > forresources > > with Bangladeshis. This makes me wonder whereexactly > > the antipathy stems from. My hunch is, > prejudice,which > > is passed on as an altruistic defence of the poor > > withwhom > > the carriers of the prejudices have nothing in > > common.Interesting, > > isnt it? bestShuddha > > On > > 21-Jun-09, at 12:54 AM, RahulAsthana > > wrote: > > DearShuddha,Pleaseread > > my reply to Anupam.The analogy was notimplied.Ithink > > that there can be valid reasons to enforce man made > > ,ephemeral > > , artificial etc. borders. That catch-all reasonalone > > is not enough to strike down the restriction for > > freeflow > > of human beings between national > borders. Inprinciple > > there is nothing wrong or right about free flow > ofcapital > > or human beings."Artificial, ephemeral,man-made" > > geographical and administrational borders > arenecessary,among > > other things because of the simple reason > ofaccountability > > and manageability, as functional units foreconomic > > co-operation and security.Someone representing > aparticular > > geographic continuum is accountable andresponsible > > for the decisions taken with respect toit.Iwant > > you to come up with some good reasons why you think > > theboundaries > > and definition of a nation state should not > beobserved. > > Let me repeat, saying that it is an"artificial, > > ephemeral, man-made border" , so itshould > > be stricken down is not a good reason.ThanksRahul > > ---On > > Sat, 6/20/09, Shuddhabrata Sengupta wrote: From:Shuddhabrata > > Sengupta Subject:Re: > > [Reader-list] Shahidul Alam detained by Indian > > BorderSecurity > > ForceTo:"Rahul > > Asthana" Cc:"sarai > > list" ,"anupam > > chakravartty" Date:Saturday, > > June 20, 2009, 2:28 AM DearRahul, Ihave > > always felt quite at home in the world,regardlessof > > whether I was on the terrace of my OldRajendraNagar > > house in New Delhi, which once housedrefugeesfrom > > West Pakistan before it housed my migrantparentsand > > me (where I live), or I was on hilltop inDamascus,or > > in a ruined factory in Warsaw, or on the > > borderbetweenEast > > and West Jerusalem. I do not sense a > feelingofbeing'not > > at home' when I am not in my owncountry,andthere > > are many places in my own country, where I > donotfeelquite > > as home as I would have liked to, for > instanceinthewide, > > paranoiac, expansive and empty boulevards > > ofLutyensDelhi. > > In Delhi, take me to Akbar Road, and I willfeela > > foreigner (even a bit of an illegal > migrant),leavemein > > Karol Bagh, Chitli Qabar, Mehrauli, Khan > MarketorJungpura,and > > I will do just fine. Home, after all, is > wheretheheart > > is. And my heart is not in the LutyensBungalowZoneof > > New Delhi. SoI > > don't quite understand the analogy oflockedhomes > > and fenced countries. After all, we lock > ourhomes,primarily > > against the possible attacks of our > ownfellowcitizens. > > So, since we lock our homes against > ourownfellowcitizens, > > logically, then, following your line > ofthinking,should > > we not turn the whole country into one > vastprison,where > > everyone watches out for the danger that > > iseverybodyelse.We > > don't even have to look as far as > thenextBangladeshi.Or,as > > my friends and I had reason to say inanothercontext, > > 'Is the outer wall of the detentioncentre,the > > inner wall of the city?"regards, ShuddhaOn19-Jun-09, > > at 9:39 PM, Rahul > Asthanawrote:DearAnupam,Yourquestionis > > a straw man.I am not drawing any > analogybetweennationand > > home.My question to Shuddha is based upon > > hisstatementabout > > artificial borders > etc.ThanksRahul ShuddhabrataSenguptaTheSarai > > Programme atCSDSRaqsMedia > > Collectiveshuddha at sarai.netwww.sarai.netwww.raqsmediacollective.net > > > > > > > > > >  ShuddhabrataSenguptaThe > > Sarai Programme atCSDSRaqs > > Media Collectiveshuddha at sarai.netwww.sarai.netwww.raqsmediacollective.net > > > >  > > > > > >  > >  Shuddhabrata > > SenguptaThe Sarai Programme at > > CSDSRaqs Media Collectiveshuddha at sarai.netwww.sarai.netwww.raqsmediacollective.net > >  > > > > >       > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the > city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net > with subscribe in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> From taraprakash at gmail.com Sun Jun 21 04:22:39 2009 From: taraprakash at gmail.com (taraprakash) Date: Sat, 20 Jun 2009 18:52:39 -0400 Subject: [Reader-list] the world without borders References: <308286.46350.qm@web39104.mail.mud.yahoo.com><49062404-1752-42E9-B379-97423EED3173@sarai.net> <341380d00906192152p44a48d78tbc172e290858f44f@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: Dear all. I too will like the world to be without any imaginary borders. The entire globe should belong to all human beings. I want to buy a house in Kashmir andd settle there, I wonder if those speaking in favor of the world without borders would like to oppose special provision for Kashmir provided in article 370. ----- Original Message ----- From: "anupam chakravartty" To: "sarai list" Sent: Saturday, June 20, 2009 12:52 AM Subject: Re: [Reader-list] Shahidul Alam detained by Indian Border SecurityForce > Dear Rahul, > > "Do you think that homes should be locked? Do you think that people should > be allowed unrestricted entry to other peoples homes at all times?" > > what were you referring to when you posed this question to shuddha and > made > it publicly available to other readers on this list? a burglary in your > house? in that case i think i misread this whole thread to be borders and > a > photographer, as many of the readers pointed out about the incident being > an > incursion and other such things. however, we were talking about shahidul > alam. so if its a straw man, which is an informal fallacy about > misrepresentation of opponent's argument then your are committing the > fallacy of complex question when you posed the above question. i mean > anyone > would say a "no" to "Do you think that people should be allowed > unrestricted > entry to other peoples homes at all times?". But if this same question is > used to pose, what some may call the larger debate, "Do you think > foreigners > should be allowed unrestricted entry to other nation states?" you may get > a > very different opinion. i personally have a problem with such questions. > > thanks anupam > > > On 6/20/09, Rakesh Iyer wrote: > >> Dear Shuddha >> >> First things first. Reading about encroachments on a daily basis by >> people >> for living or for occupational purposes, I am not naive or romantic to >> think >> that people follow laws. In fact, my belief is that in each nation-state, >> or >> state-nation, people always want to break the law, and it's the fear that >> the law may catch them, which makes them follow the law. >> >> Second. Opening the borders for free movement of goods and people is >> indeed >> a great idea. But what about the intentions of the Pakistani and the >> Indian >> elite? We have a Pakistani elite (headed by the Army there), whose basic >> intention is 'to bleed India with a thousand cuts', and therefore some >> way >> or the other, terror attacks are taking place across the nation. One may >> say >> that there is no proof of the fact that Pakistan is behind attacks (even >> say >> 26/11), but my argument is simply this: how come when diplomatic pressure >> was applied after 26/11, no terror attack has taken place in India? >> >> Before that, terror attacks were common every 2-3 months in one or the >> other >> part of the country. And in 2004-05 there were hardly any terror attacks. >> It's October 2005 blasts in Delhi which started this trend, and >> ironically >> this is the time when the peace process between India and Pakistan seemed >> to >> have got stuck. How come relations with Pakistan and timing of terror >> attacks are coincidental. >> >> Equally, I would not be surprised if the Indian elite indulges in the >> same >> game (through RAW and other agencies), in the NWFP and other areas of >> Pakistan. After all, the idea may be that internal troubles in Pakistan >> force it to think about its' own existence rather than concentrating on >> its' >> eastern neighbour. And who can forget that under Indira Gandhi we did >> send >> spies to Pakistan. The only thing may be that RAW may have declared it >> doesn't send spies, when it may actually do so. >> >> With this kind of a situation, opening the borders without checks and >> balances is going to lead to disaster. And plus, you need the people on >> both >> sides of the border backing it. Now the BPL population in India is more >> concerned with its livelihood demands, so also the BPL population in >> Pakistan. So are most of the people there, except the elites. And the >> elites >> turn the way media and propaganda runs. So that's the end of that move. >> >> Directly asking for radical moves is not going to give us anything. This >> is >> something the British learnt in getting through trade concessions in >> India >> and China before establishing their supremacy in both countries for >> getting >> what they wanted. This is something the experiences of Gandhi tell us. >> And >> this is equally something Obama is trying, in my perception. And that's >> why, >> Shuddha jee, I feel you are being romantic. >> >> We don't want guns from either side to go across to the other, we want >> butter. Therefore, to begin with, what we need to do is to learn from >> Indo-China relationship. This means that we first allow movement of goods >> (unfortunately, these have to be checked), to an extent where trade is so >> much that interdependence forces both the elites to shelve their current >> nefarious plans for once and for all. Secondly, we do require the >> movement >> of people, so let us have bus services and train services between the two >> countries. >> >> And may be it's now time that at least in Punjab (if not in Kashmir), let >> us >> go for an border (with checks again) and allowing people to visit each >> other. Equally let the two sides of Kashmiris visit each other through >> bus >> services. What's the harm in that? >> >> For the other borders like Indo-Bangla (Bangladesh) border too, we need >> to >> go on a state to state case, and to reach the final step of open border, >> we >> must take steps or a leap depending on the situation. For example, with >> Bhutan itself, why not start this at least? >> >> Different borders require different levels to begin with, but the final >> goal >> is same. The only thing is that the steps have to be tweaked to reach >> that >> goal. Otherwise, we may never begin at all. And we need to do this. And >> that >> is why I feel we need to pressurize the Indian state (being Indian >> citizens), to do this. I do believe that to go to places you have >> mentioned >> in your other mail, you would have secured a passport and a visa, and >> that >> you would have done as an Indian citizen. So also, many facilities you >> would >> be accruing as an Indian citizen in the nation. >> >> Therefore, whether we like it or not, we are Indian citizens >> (unfortunately >> or fortunately is one's own way of thinking about this). What we do need >> to >> do, is to think beyond our own state and look at human beings as one >> entity, >> not as Indians, Americans or Brazilians and thus separate entities. >> (These >> are just identities on which people must not be divided). And thus, we >> need >> to look at the final goal as this, but start from rudimentary steps. >> Remember, we have to take all with us, for that is what we refer to as >> 'inclusive development'. Otherwise, we can also shout and those opposing >> us >> can also shout, and we will never move forward. >> >> Regards >> >> Rakesh >> _________________________________________ >> reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. >> Critiques & Collaborations >> To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with >> subscribe in the subject header. >> To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list >> List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > subscribe in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> From shuddha at sarai.net Sun Jun 21 04:19:24 2009 From: shuddha at sarai.net (Shuddhabrata Sengupta) Date: Sun, 21 Jun 2009 04:19:24 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Shahidul Alam detained by Indian Border Security Force In-Reply-To: <740432.32400.qm@web53609.mail.re2.yahoo.com> References: <740432.32400.qm@web53609.mail.re2.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <139F6304-789E-4FB1-BFA3-EECC3EAEBEEF@sarai.net> Dear Rahul, You have nothing against Bangladeshis, (and I never said you did, I was responding to someone else, who was making a point about the 'competing' poverties of Bangladeshis and Indians as a reason to erect walls between them). I have nothing against arbitrariness. I merely talked about the arbitrariness of national borders to demonstrate that they were not 'natural' and 'inherent' constructs, and to show that just as human beings have done without them for hundreds of thousands of years in the past, so too, they may well do without them in the future. I am against nations and boundaries, not because they are arbitrary, but because they are, in my view, as they stand, inimical to necessary solidarities, at the basic, human level. I think people without entitlements and rights, people whose labour is alienated from them, people discriminated against for whatever reason to do with their birth or their choices have reason to construct solidarities against those who act against them and with those who share their circumstances. Typically, these solidarities cut across the borders that divide nations. Fishermen who straddle a coastline shared by two nations have much to gain by acting together against large trawling operations that may originate in their respective countries. In this case, the interests of lets say, Indian and Bangladeshi fishermen vis- a-vis large commercial trawling operations conducted by vested interests in India and Bangladesh are ranged together, and against those who are more powerful in their own countries. The claims of patriotism and nationalism (which seek to put the exploited and the exploiters in the same camp) in such instances act against the actuality of the solidarity of the oppressed. This is the reason why I am against nations, and additionally, because I think that the nation is either too large, or too small a unit to address the problems facing human beings today. Too small to address global ecological devastation, too large to address the municipal issues of sanitation and transport or the allocation of resources like water for agriculture at a local level. My reasons for opposing nations have very little to do with any 'rosy hued' ideals of universal brotherhood, and much more to do with the practical and day to day problems of existence in the twentieth century, which are constantly deferred by the endless wasted symbolic baggage of nations, national borders, large bloated militaries and pointless wars. These are the illusions I wish we could be rid of. Having said that, If you could have nations without standing armies, I would be more favorably inclined towards them, as I am to many forms of association that range from football clubs to esperanto societies, even if I have no active interest in them. Then the rituals of nationalism would for me be as dull and uninteresting (and just as harmless) as the protocols of the Rotary Club. I would have nothing against it, I would not be enthusiastic for it, but at least it would not burden my life and the life of our communities with the things I think that we can all no longer afford. Finally, to answer your other question, frankly, I do not know how a nation can be 'defined'. For every principle, no matter how it is expressed, be it in singular or plural registers, be they inguistic, cultural, ethnic, religious - there seem to be exceptions. So, no one definition of nations will do. Since no one definition of nation is operative, we have to accept that nations cannot be constructed in a manner that can be ever universally acceptable. As of now, it seems to me that enforcing the idea of a nation will always mean that somebody's nation will always be somebody else's violation. regards Shuddha On 21-Jun-09, at 3:55 AM, Rahul Asthana wrote: > > P.S. Would it be logical to assume that you would not have a > problem with immigration restrictions if they were based on > realpolitik? > > --- On Sun, 6/21/09, Rahul Asthana wrote: > >> From: Rahul Asthana >> Subject: Re: [Reader-list] Shahidul Alam detained by Indian Border >> Security Force >> To: "Shuddhabrata Sengupta" >> Cc: "sarai list" >> Date: Sunday, June 21, 2009, 3:51 AM >> >> 1. Please clarify how the process of definition of a nation >> is linked with your argument of discarding "artificial, >> ephemeral, man-made borders". >> Are you saying that "artificial, ephemeral, man-made >> borders" should be discarded because they are arbitrary? >> >> 2. I did not imply by my earlier email that every principle >> of immigration can be implied to every immigration relation >> between two nations.So you do not need to disprove that by >> giving counterexamples. >> >> 3. "Lets face it. The reason why people do not like having >> to deal with Bangladeshis has much more to do with >> prejudice than it has to do with >> realpolitik." >> I personally have no problem with Bangladeshis.I have >> nothing more to add on this particular point. >> >> Thanks >> Rahul >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> --- On Sun, 6/21/09, Shuddhabrata Sengupta >> wrote: >> >>> From: Shuddhabrata Sengupta >>> Subject: Re: [Reader-list] Shahidul Alam detained by >> Indian Border Security Force >>> To: "Rahul Asthana" >>> Cc: "sarai list" , >> "anupam chakravartty" >>> Date: Sunday, June 21, 2009, 3:22 AM >>> >>> No, I do not think we are in agreement at all. The >> example >>> of Poland which I gave demonstrates how arbitrary the >>> principles of exclusion are and have been >> historically. >>> There is nothing 'necessary' about the decisions >>> taken at the Polish border. If these decisions can be >>> reversed one way or another, so easily, it proves that >> there >>> is nothing inherently necessary to them at all. They >> are >>> contingent. The whole idea of the nation state is >> contingent >>> on the historical circumstances that have developed >> since >>> the treaty of Westphalia outlined the beginnings of >> the >>> modern state system. Being contingent, they are >> subject to >>> fundamental change. Today, at a time when nothing from >> the >>> fluctuations of the financial system to the question >> of >>> climate change can be addressed at national levels, I >> find >>> it odd that some of us can still cling on to the >> fetish of >>> borders and nation states as if they were >>> 'necessary'. >>> I find that clinging 'idealistic'. it >>> seems to fly in the face of the actual objective >> structural >>> realities of the contemporary world. >>> As for your conditions, each one of them can be >>> unpicked. >>> There are greater if not more 'security >>> threats' from the citizens of a given nation state to >>> itself, than there are from the citizens of other >> states. If >>> that is so, how far inwards should the protocols of >> the >>> 'border' and its exclusionary principles be >>> drawn? >>> Reciprocity is not necessarily the basis for >>> international relations, as demonstrated by the simple >> case >>> of the utterly un-reciprocal relationships that obtain >> at >>> the US Mexico border. >>> Diplomatic relationships have barely anything to >>> do with the situation at border controls. India has >> full >>> fledged diplomatic relationships with Pakistan and >>> Bangladesh, and yet, this does not influence the >>> humiliations that Indians, Pakistanis and Bangladeshis >> have >>> to face in the hands of each other's border >>> authorities. >>> India has border disputes with China, Pakistan >>> and with Bangladesh, and yet, refugees from Chinese >>> controlled TIbet have had an easier time getting into >> and >>> staying in India than have people from say, >> Bangladesh. So >>> clearly, border disputes are not the crucial >> determining >>> factor. >>> Lets face it. The reason why people do not like >>> having to deal with Bangladeshis has much more to do >> with >>> prejudice than it has to do with >>> realpolitik. >>> regards >>> Shuddha >>> >>> >> As far as the principles outlined by you are concerned - >>> On 21-Jun-09, at 3:09 AM, Rahul Asthana >>> wrote: >>> >>> 1. >>> So Shuddha, I believe that we are in agreement that >>> Artificial, ephemeral, man-made borders are >>> necessary. >>> 2.Now >>> I think your issue is with the selective immigration >>> policies of nations.These immigration policies may be >> based >>> on the following reasons a)reciprocation >>> or bi-lateral cooperationb)perceived >>> security threat by the citizens of a particular >>> nationc)Diplomatic >>> relations between two nationsd) >>> Border disputes between two nations etc.I >>> do not claim this to be a comprehensive list. Does >>> this answer your question? >>> ThanksRahul >>> --- >>> On Sun, 6/21/09, Shuddhabrata Sengupta >>> wrote: >>> From: >>> Shuddhabrata Sengupta Subject: >>> Re: [Reader-list] Shahidul Alam detained by Indian >> Border >>> Security ForceTo: >>> "Rahul Asthana" Cc: >>> "sarai list" , >>> "anupam chakravartty" Date: >>> Sunday, June 21, 2009, 2:49 AM >>> Where >>> exactly does the continuity of the nation statebecome >>> the discontinuity of the border? Let's take >>> thecountry >>> currently known as Poland. In the twentieth >>> centurydifferent >>> bits of it have been in Russia, Germany, Lithuaniaand >>> Slovakia. Today, Poland is part of the Schengen >>> systemand >>> a part of the European Union. Over the last one >>> hundredor >>> so years, Poland has had its borders redefined in >>> variousways. >>> Until the early nineties of the twentieth century, >>> itwas >>> impossible for some one from France to come to >>> Polandwithout >>> a strict visa system, but it was relatively easy >>> forpeople >>> from Vietnam to come to Poland as students and >>> guestworkers, >>> today the situation is exactly the opposite. So,how >>> exactly has the border acted in a way other >> thanarbitrarily. >>> What makes Vietnamese welcome, Frenchunwelcome, >>> and then vice versa across a matter of a fewyears? I >>> can see your point about the fact that someunits >>> of management of space have to exist, but why do >>> thesehave >>> to operate on the basis of exclusion? What >>> purposesdoes >>> exclusion serve? What is the way in which >>> priniciplesof >>> exclusion can be made fair and just? Can they be >>> madefair >>> and just? What >>> is it that dictates, for instance, thatNepalis >>> can at present live and work in India without >>> visas,and >>> that Bangladeshis cant? Finally, >>> and this is a response to Rakesh. Ihave >>> not heard people whom we normally nominate as the >>> poor,complain >>> about the presence of Bangladeshis in our city. >>> Forinstance, >>> Delhi has a large population of Bangladeshimigrant >>> workers who live in squatter settlements. >> Theirnon-Bangladeshi >>> neighbours who live in squatter settlementsdo >>> not normally lead the climate of opinion that >> seesBangladeshi >>> immigrants as a problem. Frankly, they haveneither >>> the property, nor the entitlements to think of >>> theirBangladeshi >>> neigbours as encroachers, primarily because theyare >>> seen as encroachers themselves. The only people whom >>> Ihave >>> heard complain about the presence of Bangladeshis >>> inDelhi >>> are those with property and entitlement, to whom >>> theaverage >>> Bangladeshi constitutes no rivalrousthreat. This >>> is somewhat paradoxical, those who complainabout >>> the presence of Bangladeshis in Delhi are those >>> whoare >>> clearly not in a position to be the competitiors >>> forresources >>> with Bangladeshis. This makes me wonder whereexactly >>> the antipathy stems from. My hunch is, >> prejudice,which >>> is passed on as an altruistic defence of the poor >>> withwhom >>> the carriers of the prejudices have nothing in >>> common.Interesting, >>> isnt it? bestShuddha >>> On >>> 21-Jun-09, at 12:54 AM, RahulAsthana >>> wrote: >>> DearShuddha,Pleaseread >>> my reply to Anupam.The analogy was notimplied.Ithink >>> that there can be valid reasons to enforce man made >>> ,ephemeral >>> , artificial etc. borders. That catch-all reasonalone >>> is not enough to strike down the restriction for >>> freeflow >>> of human beings between national >> borders. Inprinciple >>> there is nothing wrong or right about free flow >> ofcapital >>> or human beings."Artificial, ephemeral,man-made" >>> geographical and administrational borders >> arenecessary,among >>> other things because of the simple reason >> ofaccountability >>> and manageability, as functional units foreconomic >>> co-operation and security.Someone representing >> aparticular >>> geographic continuum is accountable andresponsible >>> for the decisions taken with respect toit.Iwant >>> you to come up with some good reasons why you think >>> theboundaries >>> and definition of a nation state should not >> beobserved. >>> Let me repeat, saying that it is an"artificial, >>> ephemeral, man-made border" , so itshould >>> be stricken down is not a good reason.ThanksRahul >>> ---On >>> Sat, 6/20/09, Shuddhabrata Sengupta wrote: >>> From:Shuddhabrata >>> Sengupta Subject:Re: >>> [Reader-list] Shahidul Alam detained by Indian >>> BorderSecurity >>> ForceTo:"Rahul >>> Asthana" Cc:"sarai >>> list" ,"anupam >>> chakravartty" Date:Saturday, >>> June 20, 2009, 2:28 AM DearRahul, Ihave >>> always felt quite at home in the world,regardlessof >>> whether I was on the terrace of my OldRajendraNagar >>> house in New Delhi, which once housedrefugeesfrom >>> West Pakistan before it housed my migrantparentsand >>> me (where I live), or I was on hilltop inDamascus,or >>> in a ruined factory in Warsaw, or on the >>> borderbetweenEast >>> and West Jerusalem. I do not sense a >> feelingofbeing'not >>> at home' when I am not in my owncountry,andthere >>> are many places in my own country, where I >> donotfeelquite >>> as home as I would have liked to, for >> instanceinthewide, >>> paranoiac, expansive and empty boulevards >>> ofLutyensDelhi. >>> In Delhi, take me to Akbar Road, and I willfeela >>> foreigner (even a bit of an illegal >> migrant),leavemein >>> Karol Bagh, Chitli Qabar, Mehrauli, Khan >> MarketorJungpura,and >>> I will do just fine. Home, after all, is >> wheretheheart >>> is. And my heart is not in the LutyensBungalowZoneof >>> New Delhi. SoI >>> don't quite understand the analogy oflockedhomes >>> and fenced countries. After all, we lock >> ourhomes,primarily >>> against the possible attacks of our >> ownfellowcitizens. >>> So, since we lock our homes against >> ourownfellowcitizens, >>> logically, then, following your line >> ofthinking,should >>> we not turn the whole country into one >> vastprison,where >>> everyone watches out for the danger that >>> iseverybodyelse.We >>> don't even have to look as far as >> thenextBangladeshi.Or,as >>> my friends and I had reason to say inanothercontext, >>> 'Is the outer wall of the detentioncentre,the >>> inner wall of the city?"regards, ShuddhaOn19-Jun-09, >>> at 9:39 PM, Rahul >> Asthanawrote:DearAnupam,Yourquestionis >>> a straw man.I am not drawing any >> analogybetweennationand >>> home.My question to Shuddha is based upon >>> hisstatementabout >>> artificial borders >> etc.ThanksRahul ShuddhabrataSenguptaTheSarai >>> Programme atCSDSRaqsMedia >>> Collectiveshuddha at sarai.netwww.sarai.netwww.raqsmediacollective.net >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> ShuddhabrataSenguptaThe >>> Sarai Programme atCSDSRaqs >>> Media >>> Collectiveshuddha at sarai.netwww.sarai.netwww.raqsmediacollective.net >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> Shuddhabrata >>> SenguptaThe Sarai Programme at >>> CSDSRaqs Media >>> Collectiveshuddha at sarai.netwww.sarai.netwww.raqsmediacollective.net >>> >>> >> >> >> >> _________________________________________ >> reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the >> city. >> Critiques & Collaborations >> To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net >> with subscribe in the subject header. >> To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list >> List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> > > > Shuddhabrata Sengupta The Sarai Programme at CSDS Raqs Media Collective shuddha at sarai.net www.sarai.net www.raqsmediacollective.net From rakesh.rnbdj at gmail.com Sun Jun 21 10:25:13 2009 From: rakesh.rnbdj at gmail.com (Rakesh Iyer) Date: Sun, 21 Jun 2009 10:25:13 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Shahidul Alam detained by Indian Border Security Force In-Reply-To: <139F6304-789E-4FB1-BFA3-EECC3EAEBEEF@sarai.net> References: <740432.32400.qm@web53609.mail.re2.yahoo.com> <139F6304-789E-4FB1-BFA3-EECC3EAEBEEF@sarai.net> Message-ID: Dear Shuddha I am not sure if you were referring to me when you talked about 'competing' poverties of India and Bangladesh, but if you were, then that wasn't what I meant. I clearly said that it's the media and the elites who have substantial power to decide upon the functioning of the state, and in this case that meant that the opinion of Bangladeshis entering the nation, is clearly a function of the elites, simply because as you yourself acknowledged, those living with them don't have that 'prejudice' simply because they are poor, and it's the elites who have set this agenda here in India. Therefore, even the idea that the poverties of the two nations may be competing, comes from the elites, not from the masses who live with Bangladeshi migrant settlers. Secondly, when we talk about this immigration, we must look at why it creates prejudice. For a state like Assam, or even West Bengal, the reason why it is considered wrong is because of votes. Many believe that by settling the Bangladeshi migrant settlers in India, and making them voters without any proper naturalization process, they are being made voters so that the Congress can benefit by winning elections, without doing anything for the people. In Bengal, it's the Left which faces this accusation. In the rest of the nation, it has got more to do with the idea of terrorists infiltrating from Bangladesh, which is said to be relatively easier. Nobody wants to die in such attacks after all. And that image does lead to prejudice which creates a problem. And such prejudices are wrong, I accept. For the action of a few, an entire community can't and shouldn't be blamed. Thirdly Sir. You have stated that states should not exist, so also not boundaries or nations. The fact of the matter is that they have existed even in our speeches, forget the Indian state. When we use the word 'des' in our Hindi vocabulary, it does refer to nation. And there are people in villages in MP, who do ask those coming from outside 'kounse des se aaye ho'? This question would have been asked by anybody to any foreigner. What's wrong in having nations, is something I don't understand. After all, can't people of a region consider themselves to be a nation in themselves? And if that area does believe it's a nation, it is certainly not a problem. Fourth. Isn't solidarity among the people an elitist concept that has gained ground now? This concept started with Marx, and is now being carried over in various forms by different people. Everyone tries to find solidarity depending on whichever cause he/she wishes to support. It's not that I am against solidarity, but in any such situation which you stated, there are three kinds of people: 1) Those who have lost their rights and freeedoms 2) Those who are the cause of the above 3) Those who are fence-sitters It's not just the people in category 1 who have to express solidarity against those in category 2, the people in category 3 have to express it towards those in 1 as well to act against 2. And yet, while the common cause may be there in certain cases, it's not there necessarily in other cases as well. For example, in the Bhopal gas tragedy, the organizations there working for justice, have got solidarity from people in different cities and even the US, but justice is nowhere to be found. Solidarity first of all does not mean verbal expression alone. That I can also make without working for them. Solidarity means that we actually do something about the problem. And therefore, the entire concept of solidarity as it stands out to me is bogus. We say that we as Indians express solidarity with Tamils in Sri Lanka for their devolution, but do we pressurize our own state to ensure that India doesn't act against the interests of the Tamils in Sri Lanka by letting it go off the hook in the UN? And we know our polity fully well to realize that net protests and signature campaigns don't yield anything. But we sit at our homes, in the comfort there, posting on net in Sarai or some other forum. And the accused here includes me first of all, then others. Even if using the net means we can educate others and pressurize states or actors to stop oppressing, it would be of great help. But what do we do? (And here I am talking about most of us, if not all of us) And if you feel solidarity is about just verbal assurances, then Sir I feel we don't need solidarity for it. That can be done even by understanding the situation, to realize what is right and what is wrong, and make a statement against the wrong. Solidarity means we work towards that. And that is why I am beginning to feel that simply such solid assurances without work means 'our words are hollow', something I associate with elites. Fifth. You talked about patriotism Sir. Patriotism is love for the land one belongs to, because one can connect to it through culture. It is very sad that you mention patriotism and nationalism together, because both are not even comparable. Patriotism stems from inside, and is a personal feeling. One doesn't have to show that he/she is a patriot, nor is one expected to. It's an inner feeling and can help the elites certainly in improving the conditions of those who are oppressed, provided they also feel connected to these oppressed as their own. Patriotism should never be imposed upon people, is the only point I will make here. When that is the case, how come it is against solidarity? After all, patriotism means loving your land, not hating somebody else's. Therefore, I don't feel it is against solidarity. Infact, it is simply a love for one's own land. And people have a right to love the land to which they feel connected, and I or you can't take it away from them. Of course, blind love in any case will never help. But patriotism, if properly understood, will certainly be rational or reason-based. And such love or affection would not create problems. Sixth. As I mentioned earlier, so I would now. Working towards an agenda you have set is good. But I don't feel we can get to it that easily. As I see, there is no public movement working to dismantle the Indian state structure, which has gained the imagination of the people. Also, while there may not have been states earlier or nations earlier, there would have been panchayats at the village level. And these would be the local state-like authorities, after all. For there has to be some center of authority at some level which can administer the region or decide the priorities. Impractical solutions or solutions imposed too quickly on people could themselves lead to disaster. I agree that we have problems and threats which are internal, but does that mean we should also invite more threats from external and thereby make the situation more problematic? We are living in a situation where there are walls of mistrust, and it is inevitable that we have to move slowly. Europe itself has taken 2 World Wars and numerous years of suffering and pain to come up to the EU stage. How come you are expecting India and Pakistan to just open the borders as it is, accept that there is no such thing as state hood, and give powers to panchayats and pack their central authorities? Is that rational? Nor is there a public movement in either countries to completely give up state hood for once and for all against the central establishments. I don't say we should also fight wars to come up to friendship, but it means we have to slowly dissolve away the levels of mistrust and work towards that agenda. I know some may say that we have lost generations in mistrust, but we have to sideline those who are oppressing, and that takes time. After all, a relation of 57-60 years of mistrust doesn't vanish away in one single moment. And Sir, agendas can be set, but to achieve the agendas, a rigorous struggle is required. And any struggle will achieve only small steps in the beginning. Trying to achieve the 'lakshya' in one single step, is talking like the BJP or the Left, who make one-line prescriptions to solve problems of the nation. Those are not going to work. Also, ultimately it's the people who should decide what should be the structure of their nation or village (or entity they use to describe their place of living along with its neighborhood), not you or me. Regards Rakesh From jeebesh at sarai.net Sun Jun 21 10:57:37 2009 From: jeebesh at sarai.net (Jeebesh) Date: Sun, 21 Jun 2009 10:57:37 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] The Peculiar Case of the Golden Peacock Message-ID: The Peculiar Case of the Golden Peacock, 10 minutes, Thursday release!!! Please, watch it here: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f0o1PhmTjEQ From rakesh.rnbdj at gmail.com Sun Jun 21 11:39:43 2009 From: rakesh.rnbdj at gmail.com (Rakesh Iyer) Date: Sun, 21 Jun 2009 11:39:43 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] India Is Racist, And Happy About It In-Reply-To: <309725.94809.qm@web53611.mail.re2.yahoo.com> References: <309725.94809.qm@web53611.mail.re2.yahoo.com> Message-ID: Dear Rahul Thanks for posting this article. It is a reflection of what the truth is about India. The fact is that our middle class population is the most Anglicized in the world I believe, even more than the Englishmen themselves. And the idea of dark being accepted as bad and fair being accepted as good, is an absolute shame in today's times when the elites wish to see themselves as modern. We must really be ashamed as human beings of this trend. Equally let me state another interesting example of what may be racism. I am studying in IIT Madras, and most of the north-Indians studying here despise Chennai, because as they say 'yahan maal nahi hai', the reference being to the fact that unlike north-Indian cities like Delhi and even Mumbai (which is western by geography but northern by linguistic standards for them), girls are generally not fair. What's more, north-Indians believe that Bangalore is better for at least fair girls are there. So here we are, practising racism amongst ourselves. When we are not ready to marry a girl just because she is black, then it is not surprising that a Black, even if American, has to face what has been mentioned above. Of course, in addition we are also showcasing how the female species of India is seen through use of words like 'maal' , 'item', 'rapchik' and so on. Regards Rakesh From ambarien at yahoo.co.uk Sun Jun 21 11:38:46 2009 From: ambarien at yahoo.co.uk (ambarien qadar) Date: Sun, 21 Jun 2009 06:08:46 +0000 (GMT) Subject: [Reader-list] Film Screening: 'We Homes Chaps' Message-ID: <556537.63955.qm@web24105.mail.ird.yahoo.com> Hi all, The Habitat Film Club is screening Kesang Tseten's 'We Homes Chaps' (Documentary,59 minutes, English) this Tuesday, June 23rd, 09. If you are in Delhi, please do come. The film shall be followed by a discussion. Gulmohar Hall, The India Habitat Center, Tuesday, June 23rd. 6.30 pm.  Synopsis: This film explores the fragile ground where love and  unlove cohabit, illuminating a rare space where the two are in close proximity but distinct. A unique Scottish Presbyterian home was founded by a missionary at the turn of the century in British India. It takes in orphans, mainly destitute Anglo-Indian children, and subsequently, children of Tibetan refugees and other Himalayan people in strife. Providing an all-round education with old-fashioned and colonial Christian values, it is a home for many that would not have had one.  But it is also a universe unto itself, a “total  institution.” For a “Homes chap” the institution is a surrogate parent, and an anchor and source of life-long attachment.   It is a love with an edge, a difficult love. Why that is so is what Tibetan filmmaker and Homes alumnus Kesang Tseten attempts to answer when he and his classmates of 29 years ago, return to the site of his childhood in the Village for Children in the lap of Kanchenjunga,  during the heightened emotions of reunion and the institution’s centennial celebrations. This is a searing and yet lyrical reflection on displacement, marginality, nostalgia, the powerful hold of early experience, and the nature of love. Crew: Dir/Pro by Kesang Tseten   Camera Ranjan Palit Additional camera Reena Mohan   Editing Kesang Tseten Passang Dorjee   Sound Location PM Satheesh   Sound mix Fireflies Stuidio Shajith CheersAmbarien Al QadarTel: 9810946273     From rakesh.rnbdj at gmail.com Sun Jun 21 12:28:26 2009 From: rakesh.rnbdj at gmail.com (Rakesh Iyer) Date: Sun, 21 Jun 2009 12:28:26 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] the world without borders In-Reply-To: References: <308286.46350.qm@web39104.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <49062404-1752-42E9-B379-97423EED3173@sarai.net> <341380d00906192152p44a48d78tbc172e290858f44f@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: Dear Taraprakash I accept the claim that Article 370 must be scrapped, and not only should it be scrapped, but not only Indians, but also people of all kinds of identities must be given the democratic right to buy property there if it is available for sale, and build houses and live there. I don't think this is something which can be objected to. However, this is ironically in case of an ideal scenario. In the current scenario, the fact remains that some part of the problem is communal and some part is not communal. Also, whatever be the romantic notions of the Kashmiris, the fact remains that both India and Pakistani state establishments are not going to release the Kashmir under their control, due to the sentimental and emotional capital attached with it. And India, in order to appease the Kashmiris on its side to be with it, has introduced this article. Therefore, if the ideal scenario case were to be followed, not only must Article 370 go, but also the LOC and the International Border must go. Both should be removed and all kinds of people must be allowed to move around and trade with each other, live where they get the chance to with certain norms obeyed. After all, it would be a shame that on one hand we argue that Muslims can't live in Hindu dominated areas in Gujarat or elsewhere, and then say that Hindus or other people can't live in Muslim dominated areas in Kashmir. Regards Rakesh From jeebesh at sarai.net Sun Jun 21 13:17:19 2009 From: jeebesh at sarai.net (Jeebesh) Date: Sun, 21 Jun 2009 13:17:19 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Iranian Filmmakers expect Ahmadinejad's revenge Message-ID: <98B02F64-1154-4929-9EB7-F63E9EE0644F@sarai.net> Iranian Filmmakers expect Ahmadinejad's revenge http://www.cinemawithoutborders.com/news/125/ARTICLE/1906/2009-06-13.html Ramin, a reader of CWB in Tehran writes us in an email ”Iranian Filmmakers and actors and actresses that opposed Ahmadinejad in the recent Iranian presidential election by supporting the moderate Mirhossein Mossavi, are now scared of Ahamadinejad's revenge. Almost no one in the Iranian film community expected Ahmadinejad’s win and now they believe this will bring about darker days and more restricted censorship [to Film]. Iranian filmmakers and actors and actresses, in a video called Green Stars posted on Youtube, went far enough to tell their audiences that a future with Ahmadinejad will be a disaster for art and for the whole country. Looking at brutal beatings and vast number of arrests of those objecting the election results makes the future of those involved with art in Iran grimmer” From c.anupam at gmail.com Sun Jun 21 14:26:21 2009 From: c.anupam at gmail.com (anupam chakravartty) Date: Sun, 21 Jun 2009 14:26:21 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Shahidul Alam detained by Indian Border Security Force In-Reply-To: References: <740432.32400.qm@web53609.mail.re2.yahoo.com> <139F6304-789E-4FB1-BFA3-EECC3EAEBEEF@sarai.net> Message-ID: <341380d00906210156g5e71db08l9c7c379c3e445f3d@mail.gmail.com> Dear Rahul, I can understand that you question for Shuddha about his take on preventive detention that I had not read. So I apologise. However, I think somewhere during the discussion preventive detention has been confused with crossing international borders. However, Shuddha made some valid points. On the other hand, the points raised by you Rahul are crisp and direct. It clearly reflects your in-depth understanding of specific issues (if I am also allowed to use commonalities) with respect to borders and immigration. I do understand that the borders, which are intangible, become material basis for our existence. Somehow, the idea of having borders is innate to human beings – be it for better administration or self-preservation. My issue lies with perceiving borders as means to express one’s might over the fence. Sometimes this primordial instinct of limiting our existence can be compared to the way dogs mark their territory. To digress, I have also noticed that cows, and other herbivores do not have a problem in trespassing to one’s territory or eating a branch from a tree, and one would not notice the herbivore on the other side of the fence having a problem with the animal which is trespassing. I also consider the case of bullfights but it has nothing to do with territory but to have supremacy over the herd. -Thanks Anupam On 6/21/09, Rakesh Iyer wrote: > > Dear Shuddha > > I am not sure if you were referring to me when you talked about 'competing' > poverties of India and Bangladesh, but if you were, then that wasn't what I > meant. I clearly said that it's the media and the elites who have > substantial power to decide upon the functioning of the state, and in this > case that meant that the opinion of Bangladeshis entering the nation, is > clearly a function of the elites, simply because as you yourself > acknowledged, those living with them don't have that 'prejudice' simply > because they are poor, and it's the elites who have set this agenda here in > India. > > > Therefore, even the idea that the poverties of the two nations may be > competing, comes from the elites, not from the masses who live with > Bangladeshi migrant settlers. > > > Secondly, when we talk about this immigration, we must look at why it > creates prejudice. For a state like Assam, or even West Bengal, the reason > why it is considered wrong is because of votes. Many believe that by > settling the Bangladeshi migrant settlers in India, and making them voters > without any proper naturalization process, they are being made voters so > that the Congress can benefit by winning elections, without doing anything > for the people. In Bengal, it's the Left which faces this accusation. > > > In the rest of the nation, it has got more to do with the idea of > terrorists > infiltrating from Bangladesh, which is said to be relatively easier. Nobody > wants to die in such attacks after all. And that image does lead to > prejudice which creates a problem. And such prejudices are wrong, I accept. > For the action of a few, an entire community can't and shouldn't be blamed. > > > Thirdly Sir. You have stated that states should not exist, so also not > boundaries or nations. The fact of the matter is that they have existed > even > in our speeches, forget the Indian state. When we use the word 'des' in our > Hindi vocabulary, it does refer to nation. And there are people in villages > in MP, who do ask those coming from outside 'kounse des se aaye ho'? This > question would have been asked by anybody to any foreigner. What's wrong in > having nations, is something I don't understand. After all, can't people of > a region consider themselves to be a nation in themselves? And if that area > does believe it's a nation, it is certainly not a problem. > > > Fourth. Isn't solidarity among the people an elitist concept that has > gained > ground now? This concept started with Marx, and is now being carried over > in > various forms by different people. Everyone tries to find solidarity > depending on whichever cause he/she wishes to support. It's not that I am > against solidarity, but in any such situation which you stated, there are > three kinds of people: > > > 1) Those who have lost their rights and freeedoms > 2) Those who are the cause of the above > 3) Those who are fence-sitters > > > It's not just the people in category 1 who have to express solidarity > against those in category 2, the people in category 3 have to express it > towards those in 1 as well to act against 2. And yet, while the common > cause > may be there in certain cases, it's not there necessarily in other cases as > well. For example, in the Bhopal gas tragedy, the organizations there > working for justice, have got solidarity from people in different cities > and > even the US, but justice is nowhere to be found. > > Solidarity first of all does not mean verbal expression alone. That I can > also make without working for them. Solidarity means that we actually do > something about the problem. And therefore, the entire concept of > solidarity > as it stands out to me is bogus. We say that we as Indians express > solidarity with Tamils in Sri Lanka for their devolution, but do we > pressurize our own state to ensure that India doesn't act against the > interests of the Tamils in Sri Lanka by letting it go off the hook in the > UN? And we know our polity fully well to realize that net protests and > signature campaigns don't yield anything. But we sit at our homes, in the > comfort there, posting on net in Sarai or some other forum. And the accused > here includes me first of all, then others. Even if using the net means we > can educate others and pressurize states or actors to stop oppressing, it > would be of great help. But what do we do? (And here I am talking about > most > of us, if not all of us) > > > And if you feel solidarity is about just verbal assurances, then Sir I feel > we don't need solidarity for it. That can be done even by understanding the > situation, to realize what is right and what is wrong, and make a statement > against the wrong. Solidarity means we work towards that. And that is why I > am beginning to feel that simply such solid assurances without work means > 'our words are hollow', something I associate with elites. > > > Fifth. You talked about patriotism Sir. Patriotism is love for the land one > belongs to, because one can connect to it through culture. It is very sad > that you mention patriotism and nationalism together, because both are not > even comparable. Patriotism stems from inside, and is a personal feeling. > One doesn't have to show that he/she is a patriot, nor is one expected to. > It's an inner feeling and can help the elites certainly in improving the > conditions of those who are oppressed, provided they also feel connected to > these oppressed as their own. Patriotism should never be imposed upon > people, is the only point I will make here. > > > When that is the case, how come it is against solidarity? After all, > patriotism means loving your land, not hating somebody else's. Therefore, I > don't feel it is against solidarity. Infact, it is simply a love for one's > own land. And people have a right to love the land to which they feel > connected, and I or you can't take it away from them. > > > Of course, blind love in any case will never help. But patriotism, if > properly understood, will certainly be rational or reason-based. And such > love or affection would not create problems. > > > Sixth. As I mentioned earlier, so I would now. Working towards an agenda > you > have set is good. But I don't feel we can get to it that easily. As I see, > there is no public movement working to dismantle the Indian state > structure, > which has gained the imagination of the people. Also, while there may not > have been states earlier or nations earlier, there would have been > panchayats at the village level. And these would be the local state-like > authorities, after all. For there has to be some center of authority at > some > level which can administer the region or decide the priorities. > > > Impractical solutions or solutions imposed too quickly on people could > themselves lead to disaster. I agree that we have problems and threats > which > are internal, but does that mean we should also invite more threats from > external and thereby make the situation more problematic? We are living in > a > situation where there are walls of mistrust, and it is inevitable that we > have to move slowly. Europe itself has taken 2 World Wars and numerous > years > of suffering and pain to come up to the EU stage. How come you are > expecting > India and Pakistan to just open the borders as it is, accept that there is > no such thing as state hood, and give powers to panchayats and pack their > central authorities? Is that rational? Nor is there a public movement in > either countries to completely give up state hood for once and for all > against the central establishments. > > > I don't say we should also fight wars to come up to friendship, but it > means > we have to slowly dissolve away the levels of mistrust and work towards > that > agenda. I know some may say that we have lost generations in mistrust, but > we have to sideline those who are oppressing, and that takes time. After > all, a relation of 57-60 years of mistrust doesn't vanish away in one > single > moment. > > > And Sir, agendas can be set, but to achieve the agendas, a rigorous > struggle > is required. And any struggle will achieve only small steps in the > beginning. Trying to achieve the 'lakshya' in one single step, is talking > like the BJP or the Left, who make one-line prescriptions to solve problems > of the nation. Those are not going to work. Also, ultimately it's the > people > who should decide what should be the structure of their nation or village > (or entity they use to describe their place of living along with its > neighborhood), not you or me. > > > Regards > > Rakesh > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > subscribe in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> From kshmendra2005 at yahoo.com Sun Jun 21 15:51:43 2009 From: kshmendra2005 at yahoo.com (Kshmendra Kaul) Date: Sun, 21 Jun 2009 03:21:43 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Reader-list] Preventing a Taliban victory - By Pervez Hoodbhoy Message-ID: <388968.69597.qm@web57203.mail.re3.yahoo.com> There are some Indians who are totally unaware of the extent of "hate-India" indoctrination that pervades through Pakistan. It is not confined to adult Pakistanis.   We often get sincere and well-intentioned Indians commenting about 'love and amity' between the peoples of the two countries and ill-informed judgements about how the 'common people of Pakistan' are not party to the Islamic Terrorism that is nurtured in and emanates frm Pakistan.   It would do such Indians well to read this piece by Pervez Hoodbhoy who is widely respected as one of the finest voices in Pakistan.   Kshmendra      EXCERPTS:   - If public support were absent, extremist violence could be relatively easy to deal with. But extremism does not lie merely at the fringes. As an example, let us recall that 5,000 people crammed the streets outside Lal Masjid to pray behind the battle-hardened pro-Taliban militant leader, Maulana Abdul Aziz, the day after he was released from prison on the orders of interior minister Rehman Malik.   - For now some soldiers have bought into the amazing invention that the Baitullahs and Fazlullahs are India’s secret agents. Others have been told that they are actually fighting a nefarious American-Jewish plot to destabilise Pakistan.   - The unmentionable truth — one etched in stone — is that when a state proclaims to have a religious mission, it inevitably privileges those who organise religious life and interpret religious text. It then becomes difficult — perhaps impossible — to challenge those who claim to fight for religious causes. After all, what’s wrong with the Taliban mission to bring the Sharia to Pakistan?   - If there was one solid unchallengeable version of the faith, then at least there would be a clear answer to this question. But conflict becomes inevitable once different models and interpretations start competing. Whose version of the Sharia should prevail? Whose jihad is the correct one? Who shall decide?   - Nations win wars only if there is a clear rallying slogan and a shared goal. For this, Pakistan must reinvent itself as a state that is seen to care for its people. Instead of seeking to fix the world’s problems — Kashmir, Afghanistan and Palestine included — it must work to first fix its own.       "Preventing a Taliban victory" By Pervez Hoodbhoy Saturday, 20 Jun, 2009   (Now that the army has turned serious, Baitullah Mehsud cannot expect to stroll down Constitution Avenue any time soon, nor hope to sit in the presidency.)   A few thousand mountain barbarians, even if trained by Al Qaeda’s best, cannot possibly seize power from a modern, well-armed state with 600,000 soldiers. The spectre of Pakistan collapsing in six months — a fear expressed by a senior US military adviser in March — has evaporated.   But there is little cause for elation. Daily terror attacks across the country give abundant proof that religious extremism has streamed down the mountains into the plains. Through abductions, beheadings and suicide bombings, Taliban insurgents are destabilising Pakistan, damaging its economy and spreading despondency.   Look at Islamabad, a city of fear. Machine-gun bunkers are ubiquitous while traffic barely trickles past concrete blocks placed across its super-wide roads. Upscale restaurants, fearing suicide bombers, have removed their signs although they still hope clients will remember. Who will be the next target? Girls’ schools, Internet cafes, bookshops, or western clothing stores with mannequins? Or perhaps shops selling toilet paper, underwear, and other un-Islamic goods?   The impact on Pakistan’s women is enormous. Throwing acid, or threatening to do so, has been spectacularly successful in making women embrace modesty. Today there is scarcely a female face visible anywhere in the Frontier province. Men are also changing dress — anxious private employers, government departments and NGOs have advised their male employees in Peshawar and other cities to wear shalwar-kameez rather than trousers. Video shops are being bombed out of business, and many barbers have put ‘no-shave’ notices outside their shops.   If public support were absent, extremist violence could be relatively easy to deal with. But extremism does not lie merely at the fringes. As an example, let us recall that 5,000 people crammed the streets outside Lal Masjid to pray behind the battle-hardened pro-Taliban militant leader, Maulana Abdul Aziz, the day after he was released from prison on the orders of interior minister Rehman Malik.   In the political arena, the extremists have high-profile cheerleaders like Imran Khan, Qazi Hussain Ahmad and Hamid Gul who rush to justify every attack on Pakistan’s people and culture. To them it makes no difference that Baitullah Mehsud proudly admits to the murder of Allama Dr Sarfaraz Ahmad Naeemi, the recent Peshawar mosque bombing, the earlier Wah slaughter and scores of other hideous suicide attacks. Like broken gramophone records, they chant “Amrika, Amrika, Amrika” after every new Taliban atrocity.   Nevertheless, bad as things are, there is a respite. To the relief of those who wish to see Pakistan survive, the army finally moved against the Taliban menace. But, while the state has committed men to battle, it cannot provide them a convincing reason why they must fight.   For now some soldiers have bought into the amazing invention that the Baitullahs and Fazlullahs are India’s secret agents. Others have been told that they are actually fighting a nefarious American-Jewish plot to destabilise Pakistan. To inspire revenge, still others are being shown the revolting Taliban-produced videos of Pakistani soldiers being tortured and beheaded.   That the enemy lacks an accurate name typifies the confusion and contradiction within. In official parlance they are called ‘militants’ or ‘extremists’ but never religious extremists. It is astonishing that the semi-literate Fazlullah, on whose head the government has now placed a price, is reverentially referred to as ‘maulana’. On the other hand there is no hesitation in describing Baloch fighters — who fight for a nationalist cause rather than a religious one — as rebels or terrorists.   A muddled nation can still fight, but not very well and not for too long. Self-deception enormously increases vulnerability. Yet, Pakistan’s current army and political leaders cannot alone be blamed for the confusion; history’s baggage is difficult to dispense with.   To say what really lies at the heart of Pakistan’s problems will require summoning more courage than presently exists. The unmentionable truth — one etched in stone — is that when a state proclaims to have a religious mission, it inevitably privileges those who organise religious life and interpret religious text. It then becomes difficult — perhaps impossible — to challenge those who claim to fight for religious causes. After all, what’s wrong with the Taliban mission to bring the Sharia to Pakistan?   If there was one solid unchallengeable version of the faith, then at least there would be a clear answer to this question. But conflict becomes inevitable once different models and interpretations start competing. Whose version of the Sharia should prevail? Whose jihad is the correct one? Who shall decide? Lacking a central authority — such as a pope or caliph — every individual or group can claim to be in possession of the divine truth. The murder of Dr Naeemi by the Taliban comes from this elementary fact.   For now the Baitullahs, Fazlullahs, Mangal Baghs, and their ilk are on the run. Yet, they could still win some day. Even if killed, others would replace them. So, while currently necessary, military action alone can never be sufficient. Nor will peace come from merely building more roads, schools and hospitals or inventing a new justice system.   Ultimately it is the power of ideas that shall decide between victory and defeat. It is here that Pakistan is weakest and most vulnerable. A gaping philosophical and ideological void has left the door open to demagogues who exploit resource scarcity and bad governance. They use every failing of the state to create an insurrectionary mood and churn out suicide bombers. Only a few Islamic scholars, like Dr Naeemi, have ventured to challenge them.   The long-term defence of Pakistan therefore demands a determined ideological offensive and a decisive break with the past. Nations win wars only if there is a clear rallying slogan and a shared goal. For this, Pakistan must reinvent itself as a state that is seen to care for its people. Instead of seeking to fix the world’s problems — Kashmir, Afghanistan and Palestine included — it must work to first fix its own.   A nation’s best defence is a loyal citizenry. This can be created only by offering equal rights and opportunities to all regardless of province, language and, most importantly, religion and religious sect. Navigating the way to heaven must be solely an individual’s concern, not that of the state.   (The author teaches at Quaid-i-Azam University, Islamabad.) var href = document.location.href; href = href.substring(0,href.indexOf("?")); document.write(href); http://www.dawn.com/wps/wcm/connect/dawn-content-library/dawn/news/pakistan/19-preventing-a-taliban-victory-01     From kshmendra2005 at yahoo.com Sun Jun 21 17:16:07 2009 From: kshmendra2005 at yahoo.com (Kshmendra Kaul) Date: Sun, 21 Jun 2009 04:46:07 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Reader-list] "Twitter on the Barricades: Six Lessons Learned" Message-ID: <685229.5828.qm@web57203.mail.re3.yahoo.com> June 21, 2009   "Twitter on the Barricades: Six Lessons Learned"  By NOAM COHEN   Political revolutions are often closely linked to communication tools. The American Revolution wasn’t caused by the proliferation of pamphlets, written to whip colonists into a frenzy against the British. But it sure helped.   Social networking, a distinctly 21st-century phenomenon, has already been credited with aiding protests from the Republic of Georgia to Egypt to Iceland. And Twitter, the newest social-networking tool, has been identified with two mass protests in a matter of months — in Moldova in April and in Iran last week, when hundreds of thousands of people took to the streets to oppose the official results of the presidential election.   But does the label Twitter Revolution, which has been slapped on the two most recent events, oversell the technology? Skeptics note that only a small number of people used Twitter to organize protests in Iran and that other means — individual text messaging, old-fashioned word of mouth and Farsi-language Web sites — were more influential. But Twitter did prove to be a crucial tool in the cat-and-mouse game between the opposition and the government over enlisting world opinion. As the Iranian government restricts journalists’ access to events, the protesters have used Twitter’s agile communication system to direct the public and journalists alike to video, photographs and written material related to the protests. (As has become established custom on Twitter, users have agreed to mark, or “tag,” each of their tweets with the same bit of type — #IranElection — so that users can find them more easily). So maybe there was no Twitter Revolution. But over the last week, we learned a few lessons about the strengths and weaknesses of a technology that is less than three years old and is experiencing explosive growth.   1. Twitter Is a Tool and Thus Difficult to Censor   Twitter aspires to be something different from social-networking sites like Facebook or MySpace: rather than being a vast self-contained world centered on one Web site, Twitter dreams of being a tool that people can use to communicate with each other from a multitude of locations, like e-mail. You do not have to visit the home site to send a message, or tweet. Tweets can originate from text-messaging on a cellphone or even blogging software. Likewise, tweets can be read remotely, whether as text messages or, say, “status updates” on a friend’s Facebook page.   Unlike Facebook, which operates solely as a Web site that can be, in a sense, impounded, shutting down Twitter.com does little to stop the offending Twittering. You’d have to shut down the entire service, which is done occasionally for maintenance.   2. Tweets Are Generally Banal, but Watch Out   “The qualities that make Twitter seem inane and half-baked are what makes it so powerful,” says Jonathan Zittrain, a Harvard law professor who is an expert on the Internet. That is, tweets by their nature seem trivial, with little that is original or menacing. Even Twitter accounts seen as promoting the protest movement in Iran are largely a series of links to photographs hosted on other sites or brief updates on strategy. Each update may not be important. Collectively, however, the tweets can create a personality or environment that reflects the emotions of the moment and helps drive opinion. \ 3. Buyer Beware   Nothing on Twitter has been verified. While users can learn from experience to trust a certain Twitter account, it is still a matter of trust. And just as Twitter has helped get out first-hand reports from Tehran, it has also spread inaccurate information, perhaps even disinformation. An article published by the Web site True/Slant highlighted some of the biggest errors on Twitter that were quickly repeated and amplified by bloggers: that three million protested in Tehran last weekend (more like a few hundred thousand); that the opposition candidate Mir Hussein Moussavi was under house arrest (he was being watched); that the president of the election monitoring committee declared the election invalid last Saturday (not so).   4. Watch Your Back   Not only is it hard to be sure that what appears on Twitter is accurate, but some Twitterers may even be trying to trick you. Like Rick’s Café, Twitter is thick with discussion of who is really an informant or agent provocateur. One longstanding pro-Moussavi Twitter account, mousavi1388, which has grown to 16,000 followers, recently tweeted, “WARNING: http://www.mirhoseyn.ir/ & http://www.mirhoseyn.com/ are fake, DONT join. ... #IranElection11:02 AM Jun 16th from web.” The implication was that government agents had created those accounts to mislead the public. ABCNews.com announced that Twitter users who said they were repeating (“retweeting”) the posts from its reporter, Jim Sciutto, had been fabricating the material to make Mr. Sciutto seem to be backing the government. “I became an unwitting victim,” he wrote.   5. Twitter Is Self-Correcting but a Misleading Gauge   For all the democratic traits of Twitter, not all users are equal. A popular, trusted user matters more and, as shown above, can expose others who are suspected of being fakers. In that way, Twitter is a community, with leaders and cliques. Of course, Twitter is a certain kind of community — technology-loving, generally affluent and Western-tilting. In that way, Twitter is a very poor tool for judging popular sentiment in Iran and trying to assess who won the presidential election. Mr. Ahmadinejad, who presumably has some supporters somewhere in Iran, is losing in a North Korean-style landslide on Twitter.   6. Twitter Can Be a Potent Tool for Media Criticism   Just as Twitter can rally protesters against governments, its broadcast ability can rally them quickly and efficiently against news outlets. One such spontaneous protest was given the tag #CNNfail, using Internet slang to call out CNN last weekend for failing to have comprehensive coverage of the Iranian protests. This was quickly converted to an e-mail writing campaign. CNN was forced to defend its coverage in print and online.   http://www.nytimes.com/2009/06/21/weekinreview/21cohenweb.html?_r=1&hp=&pagewanted=print   From 2tahamehmood at googlemail.com Sun Jun 21 20:16:59 2009 From: 2tahamehmood at googlemail.com (Taha Mehmood) Date: Sun, 21 Jun 2009 15:46:59 +0100 Subject: [Reader-list] MNIC: Parliament Questions - 26 Message-ID: <65be9bf40906210746i3fdd4902leda4013832ae4ed1@mail.gmail.com> http://164.100.47.132/psearch/QResult13.aspx?qref=37459 GOVERNMENT OF INDIA MINISTRY OF HOME AFFAIRS LOK SABHA STARRED QUESTION NO 227 ANSWERED ON 19.03.2002 ISSUE OF IDENTITY CARDS 227 . Shri NEDURUMALLI JANARDHANA REDDY SHYAMA SINGH (a) whether the Government propose to issue identity cards/citizen cards to all the citizens of the country to check the illegal migration; (b) if so, the details thereof; (c) whether the Union Government have taken a decision to issue tamper proof Identity Cards to all the villagers living in the 10 k.m. border belt to check infiltrators from the various borders; (d) if so, the details in this regard; (e) whether any criteria has been fixed for issuance of such Identity Cards; (f) if so, the details thereof; (g) whether any time schedule has been fixed to complete the task; and (h) if so, the details thereof? ANSWER MINISTER OF STATE IN THE MINISTRY OF HOME AFFAIRS ( SHRI CH. VIDYASAGAR RAO ) (a)to(h): A statement is laid on the Table of the House. STATEMENT REFERRED TO IN REPLY TO LOK SABHA STARRED QUESTION NO.227 DUE FOR ANSWER ON 19TH MARCH, 2002 (a)to(h): A proposal to issue Multipurpose National Identity Cards (MNICs) to Indian citizens, including the people residing in the border areas of the country, is receiving the Government`s attention. These cards apart from providing a credible identification system, may have multifarious uses. The issue of MNICs would involve creation of an identification system for more than one billion citizens, streamlining the existing machinery for the registration of births and deaths at the grass root levels and choices of institutional as well as technological options for the creation of an integrated data base of personal identities capable of being continuously updated. The Government would finalize its decision only after an in-depth examination of all relevant issues and after making necessary preparations, including the legal backing to the scheme. From 2tahamehmood at googlemail.com Sun Jun 21 20:18:24 2009 From: 2tahamehmood at googlemail.com (Taha Mehmood) Date: Sun, 21 Jun 2009 15:48:24 +0100 Subject: [Reader-list] MNIC: Parliament Questions - 27 Message-ID: <65be9bf40906210748n3f1285c9wdb9f40d1a8f0d00a@mail.gmail.com> http://164.100.47.132/psearch/QResult13.aspx?qref=40363 GOVERNMENT OF INDIA MINISTRY OF HOME AFFAIRS LOK SABHA UNSTARRED QUESTION NO 6206 ANSWERED ON 07.05.2002 NATIONAL IDENTITY CARDS 6206 . Shri ANANDRAO VITHOBA ADSUL GADDE RAMAMOHAN NARESH KUMAR PUGLIA CHANDRA BHUSHAN SINGH M.V.V.S MURTHI (a) whether the Government propose to initiate the steps to revive the proposal to issue multipurpose National Identity Cards to all citizens as reported in the `Hindu` dated April 12, 2002; (b) if so, the details thereof alongwith its objective; (c) whether this proposal was earlier derailed following the reservations expressed by some States: (d) if so, the details of reservations expressed by the States last time, State-wise; (e) the steps taken by the Government to resolve the issue raised by State Governments; (f) the time by which the proposed cards are likely to be issued; (g) whether the Government propose to link the National Identity Cards within the Citizenship Act; and (h) if so, the reasons therefor? ANSWER MINISTER OF STATE IN THE MINISTRY OF HOME AFFAIRS ( SHRI CH. VIDYASAGAR RAO ) (a) to (h): A proposal to issue Multipurpose National Identity Cards (MNICs) to Indian citizens, including the people residing in the border areas of the country is receiving Government`s attention. These cards, apart from providing a credible identification system, may have multifarious uses. The issue of MNICs would involve creation of an identification system for more than one billion citizens, streamlining the existing machinery for the registration of birth and deaths at the grass root levels and choices of institutional as well as technological options for the creation of an integrated data base of personal identities capable of being continuously updated. The Government would finalize its decision only after an in-depth examination of all relevant issues and after making necessary preparations, including the legal backing to the scheme. Issuing National Identity Cards under the provisions of the Citizenship Act, 1955 is one of the options available. The issue of National Identity Cards was discussed and endured in the conference of Chief Ministers on Internal Security held in 17th November 2001. From bawazainab79 at gmail.com Sun Jun 21 23:02:34 2009 From: bawazainab79 at gmail.com (Zainab Bawa) Date: Sun, 21 Jun 2009 23:02:34 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Mousavi's statement to Iranian People Message-ID: I still strongly believe that the request for annulment of this election and a renewed election is a given right and it should be investigated impartially by a board trusted nationally, instead of rejecting the possibility of any positive results from the investigation beforehand; or propose the possibility of bloodshed in order to keep people from rallying and demonstrating; or the National Security Council, instead of answering the righteous question about the role of plainclothes in attacking people and public property, and inflaming public movements, resolves to [pyschological projection] and blaming others for the tragedies that have happened. http://www.payvand.com/news/09/jun/122 -- Zainab Bawa Ph.D. Student and Independent Researcher Gaining Ground ... http://zainab.freecrow.org http://cis-india.org/research/cis-raw/histories-of-the-internet/transparency-and-politics From rahul_capri at yahoo.com Mon Jun 22 00:55:16 2009 From: rahul_capri at yahoo.com (Rahul Asthana) Date: Sun, 21 Jun 2009 12:25:16 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Reader-list] Shahidul Alam detained by Indian Border Security Force Message-ID: <669160.1827.qm@web53607.mail.re2.yahoo.com> Dear Shuddha, 1. "I merely talked about the arbitrariness of national borders to demonstrate that they were not 'natural' and 'inherent' constructs, and to show that just as human beings have done without them for hundreds of thousands of years in the past, so too, they may well do without them in the future. " This is essentially a Luddite argument-neither here nor there. You can make the same argument about electricity , internet, fire etc. 2."I think people without entitlements and > rights, people whose labour is alienated from them, people > discriminated against for whatever reason to do with their > birth or their choices have reason to construct solidarities > against those who act against them and with those who share > their circumstances." "The claims of patriotism and nationalism (which > seek to put the exploited and the exploiters in the same > camp) in such instances act against the actuality of the > solidarity of the oppressed." ` According to you, the benefit of having an opportunity to forge a pan national solidarity against the exploiters the exploited offsets the benefits accruing from a nation like a constitution providing fundamental rights, a government that works to enforce the rule of law, security against imperialist attacks,public spending etc.A similar situation existed in the middle ages in some parts of the world when ragtag militias controlled small portions of land and kept fighting with each other for larger shares of land, produce, riches etc.How will your proposed nation less model of the world address the problems of law and order? 3.>and additionally, because I think that the > nation is either too large, or too small a unit to address > the problems facing human beings today. Too small to address > global ecological devastation, too large to address the > municipal issues of sanitation and transport or the > allocation of resources like water for agriculture at a > local level. A problem like global ecological devastation certainly needs more cooperation between nations. As for local problems decentralization is not antithetical to the definition of a nation.Can you explain how your alternative model will be more conducive to solving problems like ecological devastation? 4.>Having said that, If you could have nations without standing armies, I >would be more favorably inclined towards them, Armies have not been introduced by nations.They have existed long before them.The idea of an army less world will not fly too far in a real world scenario.Its only good for "What if" kind of articles. 5. "As of now, it seems to me that enforcing the idea of a nation will always mean that somebody's nation will always be somebody else's violation." The idea of a nation is dynamic. Its not married to its origin or definition.It always undergoes constant change, discontinuities, incorporations, and the `turf` never remains the same.The solution is not to undo the idea of the nation completely , but activism against your pet cause.Please remember, as long as greed and inequity of power exists in this world there would always be violations. In any case,it would be easier to make this comparison if you present some concrete ideas about your nation less model of the world. Thanks Rahul --- On Sun, 6/21/09, Shuddhabrata Sengupta wrote: > From: Shuddhabrata Sengupta > Subject: Re: [Reader-list] Shahidul Alam detained by Indian Border Security Force > To: "Rahul Asthana" > Cc: "sarai list" > Date: Sunday, June 21, 2009, 4:19 AM > > Dear Rahul,  > You have nothing against Bangladeshis, (and I > never said you did, I was responding to someone else, who > was making a point about the 'competing' poverties > of Bangladeshis and Indians as a reason to erect walls > between them). I have nothing against > arbitrariness.  > I merely talked about the arbitrariness of > national borders to demonstrate that they were not > 'natural' and 'inherent' constructs, and to > show that just as human beings have done without them for > hundreds of thousands of years in the past, so too, they may > well do without them in the future.  > I am against nations and boundaries, not because > they are arbitrary, but because they are, in my view, as > they stand, inimical to necessary solidarities, at the > basic, human level. I think people without entitlements and > rights, people whose labour is alienated from them, people > discriminated against for whatever reason to do with their > birth or their choices have reason to construct solidarities > against those who act against them and with those who share > their circumstances.  > Typically, these solidarities cut across the > borders that divide nations. Fishermen who straddle a > coastline shared by two nations have much to gain by acting > together against large trawling operations that may > originate in their respective countries. In this case, the > interests of lets say, Indian and Bangladeshi fishermen > vis-a-vis large commercial trawling operations conducted by > vested interests in India and Bangladesh are ranged > together, and against those who are more powerful in their > own countries.  > The claims of patriotism and nationalism (which > seek to put the exploited and the exploiters in the same > camp) in such instances act against the actuality of the > solidarity of the oppressed. This is the reason why I am > against nations, and additionally, because I think that the > nation is either too large, or too small a unit to address > the problems facing human beings today. Too small to address > global ecological devastation, too large to address the > municipal issues of sanitation and transport or the > allocation of resources like water for agriculture at a > local level. My reasons for opposing nations have very > little to do with any 'rosy hued' ideals of > universal brotherhood, and much more to do with the > practical and day to day problems of existence in the > twentieth century, which are constantly deferred by the > endless wasted symbolic baggage of nations, national > borders, large bloated militaries and pointless wars. These > are the illusions I wish we could be rid > of.  > Having said that,  If you could have > nations without standing armies, I would be more favorably > inclined towards them, as I am to many forms of association > that range from football clubs to esperanto societies, even > if I have no active interest in them. Then the rituals of > nationalism would for me be as dull and uninteresting (and > just as harmless) as the protocols of the Rotary Club. I > would have nothing against it, I would not be enthusiastic > for it, but at least it would not burden my life and the > life of our communities with the things I think that we can > all no longer afford.  > Finally, to answer your other question, frankly, > I do not know how a nation can be 'defined'. For > every principle, no matter how it is expressed, be it in > singular or plural registers,  be they inguistic, > cultural, ethnic, religious - there seem to be exceptions. > So, no one definition of nations will do. Since no one > definition of nation is operative, we have to accept that > nations cannot be constructed in a manner that can be ever > universally acceptable. As of now, it seems to me that > enforcing the idea of a nation will always mean that > somebody's nation will always be somebody else's > violation.  > regards > Shuddha > > > On 21-Jun-09, at 3:55 AM, Rahul Asthana > wrote: > > P.S. > Would it be logical to assume that you would not have a > problem with immigration restrictions if they were based on > realpolitik? > --- > On Sun, 6/21/09, Rahul Asthana > wrote: > From: > Rahul Asthana Subject: > Re: [Reader-list] Shahidul Alam detained by Indian Border > Security ForceTo: > "Shuddhabrata Sengupta" Cc: > "sarai list" Date: > Sunday, June 21, 2009, 3:51 AM > 1. > Please clarify how the process of definition of a > nationis > linked with your argument of discarding > "artificial,ephemeral, > man-made borders".Are > you saying that "artificial, ephemeral, > man-madeborders" > should be discarded because they are arbitrary? > 2. > I did not imply by my earlier email that every > principleof > immigration can be implied to every immigration > relationbetween > two nations.So you do not need to disprove that bygiving > counterexamples. > 3. > "Lets face it. The reason why people do not like > havingto > deal with Bangladeshis has much more to do > with prejudice > than it has to do with realpolitik." I > personally have no problem with Bangladeshis.I > havenothing > more to add on this particular point. > ThanksRahul > > > > > > > --- > On Sun, 6/21/09, Shuddhabrata Sengupta wrote: > From: > Shuddhabrata Sengupta Subject: > Re: [Reader-list] Shahidul Alam detained by > Indian > Border Security Force To: > "Rahul Asthana" Cc: > "sarai list" , > "anupam > chakravartty" > Date: > Sunday, June 21, 2009, 3:22 AM > No, > I do not think we are in agreement at all. The > example > of > Poland which I gave demonstrates how arbitrary theprinciples > of exclusion are and have been historically. > There > is nothing 'necessary' about the decisionstaken > at the Polish border. If these decisions can bereversed > one way or another, so easily, it proves that > there > is > nothing inherently necessary to them at all. They > are > contingent. > The whole idea of the nation state is > contingent > on > the historical circumstances that have developed > since > the > treaty of Westphalia outlined the beginnings of > the > modern > state system. Being contingent, they are > subject > to fundamental > change. Today, at a time when nothing from > the > fluctuations > of the financial system to the question > of > climate > change can be addressed at national levels, I > find > it > odd that some of us can still cling on to the > fetish > of borders > and nation states as if they were'necessary'. I > find that clinging 'idealistic'. itseems > to fly in the face of the actual objective > structural > realities > of the contemporary world. As > for your conditions, each one of them can beunpicked. There > are greater if not more 'securitythreats' > from the citizens of a given nation state toitself, > than there are from the citizens of other > states. > If that > is so, how far inwards should the protocols of > the > 'border' > and its exclusionary principles bedrawn? Reciprocity > is not necessarily the basis forinternational > relations, as demonstrated by the simple > case > of > the utterly un-reciprocal relationships that obtain > at > the > US Mexico border. Diplomatic > relationships have barely anything todo > with the situation at border controls. India has > full > fledged > diplomatic relationships with Pakistan andBangladesh, > and yet, this does not influence thehumiliations > that Indians, Pakistanis and Bangladeshis > have > to > face in the hands of each other's borderauthorities. India > has border disputes with China, Pakistanand > with Bangladesh, and yet, refugees from Chinesecontrolled > TIbet have had an easier time getting into > and > staying > in India than have people from say, Bangladesh. > So clearly, > border disputes are not the crucial determining > factor. Lets > face it. The reason why people do not likehaving > to deal with Bangladeshis has much more to do > with > prejudice > than it has to do withrealpolitik. regardsShuddha > > As far as the principles outlined by you are concerned -  > On > 21-Jun-09, at 3:09 AM, Rahul Asthanawrote: > 1.So > Shuddha, I believe that we are in agreement thatArtificial, > ephemeral, man-made borders arenecessary.2.NowI > think your issue is with the selective immigrationpolicies > of nations.These immigration policies may be > based > on > the following reasons a)reciprocationor > bi-lateral cooperationb)perceivedsecurity > threat by the citizens of a particularnationc)Diplomaticrelations > between two nationsd)Border > disputes between two nations etc.Ido > not claim this to be a comprehensive > list. Doesthis > answer your question? ThanksRahul---On > Sun, 6/21/09, Shuddhabrata Sengupta wrote:  > From:Shuddhabrata > Sengupta Subject:Re: > [Reader-list] Shahidul Alam detained by Indian > Border > Security > ForceTo:"Rahul > Asthana" Cc:"sarai > list" ,"anupam > chakravartty" Date:Sunday, > June 21, 2009, 2:49 AMWhereexactly > does the continuity of the nation statebecomethe > discontinuity of the border? Let's takethecountrycurrently > known as Poland. In the twentiethcenturydifferentbits > of it have been in Russia, Germany, LithuaniaandSlovakia. > Today, Poland is part of the Schengensystemanda > part of the European Union. Over the last onehundredorso > years, Poland has had its borders redefined invariousways.Until > the early nineties of the twentieth century,itwasimpossible > for some one from France to come toPolandwithouta > strict visa system, but it was relatively easyforpeoplefrom > Vietnam to come to Poland as students andguestworkers,today > the situation is exactly the opposite. So,howexactly > has the border acted in a way other thanarbitrarily. > What > makes Vietnamese welcome, Frenchunwelcome,and > then vice versa across a matter of a > fewyears? Ican > see your point about the fact that someunitsof > management of space have to exist, but why dothesehaveto > operate on the basis of exclusion? Whatpurposesdoesexclusion > serve? What is the way in whichpriniciplesofexclusion > can be made fair and just? Can they bemadefairand > just? Whatis > it that dictates, for instance, thatNepaliscan > at present live and work in India withoutvisas,andthat > Bangladeshis cant? Finally,and > this is a response to Rakesh. Ihavenot > heard people whom we normally nominate as thepoor,complainabout > the presence of Bangladeshis in our city.Forinstance,Delhi > has a large population of Bangladeshimigrantworkers > who live in squatter settlements. Theirnon-Bangladeshi > neighbours > who live in squatter settlementsdonot > normally lead the climate of opinion that > seesBangladeshi > immigrants > as a problem. Frankly, they haveneitherthe > property, nor the entitlements to think oftheirBangladeshineigbours > as encroachers, primarily because theyareseen > as encroachers themselves. The only people whomIhaveheard > complain about the presence of BangladeshisinDelhiare > those with property and entitlement, to whomtheaverageBangladeshi > constitutes no rivalrousthreat. Thisis > somewhat paradoxical, those who complainaboutthe > presence of Bangladeshis in Delhi are thosewhoareclearly > not in a position to be the competitiorsforresourceswith > Bangladeshis. This makes me wonder whereexactlythe > antipathy stems from. My hunch is, prejudice,which > is > passed on as an altruistic defence of the poorwithwhomthe > carriers of the prejudices have nothing incommon.Interesting,isnt > it? bestShuddhaOn21-Jun-09, > at 12:54 AM, RahulAsthanawrote:DearShuddha,Pleasereadmy > reply to Anupam.The analogy was notimplied.Ithinkthat > there can be valid reasons to enforce man made,ephemeral, > artificial etc. borders. That catch-all > reasonaloneis > not enough to strike down the restriction forfreeflowof > human beings between national borders. Inprinciple > there > is nothing wrong or right about free flow > ofcapital > or > human beings."Artificial, > ephemeral,man-made"geographical > and administrational borders arenecessary,among > other > things because of the simple reason ofaccountability > and > manageability, as functional units foreconomicco-operation > and security.Someone representing aparticular > geographic > continuum is accountable andresponsiblefor > the decisions taken with respect toit.Iwantyou > to come up with some good reasons why you thinktheboundariesand > definition of a nation state should not > beobserved. > Let > me repeat, saying that it is an"artificial,ephemeral, > man-made border" , so itshouldbe > stricken down is not a good reason.ThanksRahul---OnSat, > 6/20/09, Shuddhabrata Sengupta wrote: From:ShuddhabrataSengupta > Subject:Re:[Reader-list] > Shahidul Alam detained by IndianBorderSecurityForceTo:"RahulAsthana" > Cc:"sarailist" > ,"anupamchakravartty" > Date:Saturday,June > 20, 2009, 2:28 AM DearRahul, Ihavealways > felt quite at home in the world,regardlessofwhether > I was on the terrace of my OldRajendraNagarhouse > in New Delhi, which once housedrefugeesfromWest > Pakistan before it housed my migrantparentsandme > (where I live), or I was on hilltop inDamascus,orin > a ruined factory in Warsaw, or on theborderbetweenEastand > West Jerusalem. I do not sense a feelingofbeing'not > at > home' when I am not in my owncountry,andthereare > many places in my own country, where I > donotfeelquite > as > home as I would have liked to, for instanceinthewide, > paranoiac, > expansive and empty boulevardsofLutyensDelhi.In > Delhi, take me to Akbar Road, and I willfeelaforeigner > (even a bit of an illegal migrant),leavemein > Karol > Bagh, Chitli Qabar, Mehrauli, Khan MarketorJungpura,and > I > will do just fine. Home, after all, is > wheretheheart > is. > And my heart is not in the LutyensBungalowZoneofNew > Delhi. SoIdon't > quite understand the analogy oflockedhomesand > fenced countries. After all, we lock ourhomes,primarily > against > the possible attacks of our ownfellowcitizens. > So, > since we lock our homes against ourownfellowcitizens, > logically, > then, following your line ofthinking,should > we > not turn the whole country into one vastprison,where > everyone > watches out for the danger thatiseverybodyelse.Wedon't > even have to look as far as thenextBangladeshi.Or,as > my > friends and I had reason to say inanothercontext,'Is > the outer wall of the detentioncentre,theinner > wall of the > city?"regards, ShuddhaOn19-Jun-09,at > 9:39 PM, Rahul Asthanawrote:DearAnupam,Yourquestionis > a > straw man.I am not drawing any analogybetweennationand > home.My > question to Shuddha is based uponhisstatementaboutartificial > borders etc.ThanksRahul ShuddhabrataSenguptaTheSarai > Programme > atCSDSRaqsMediaCollectiveshuddha at sarai.netwww.sarai.netwww.raqsmediacollective.net > > > >  ShuddhabrataSenguptaTheSarai > Programme atCSDSRaqsMedia > Collectiveshuddha at sarai.netwww.sarai.netwww.raqsmediacollective.net >    > >     > ShuddhabrataSenguptaThe > Sarai Programme atCSDSRaqs > Media Collectiveshuddha at sarai.netwww.sarai.netwww.raqsmediacollective.net   > > >   >     _________________________________________reader-list: > an open discussion list on media and thecity.Critiques > & CollaborationsTo > subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.netwith > subscribe in the subject header.To > unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list List > archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> > > > > > Shuddhabrata > SenguptaThe Sarai Programme at > CSDSRaqs Media Collectiveshuddha at sarai.netwww.sarai.netwww.raqsmediacollective.net > > From kauladityaraj at gmail.com Mon Jun 22 01:01:22 2009 From: kauladityaraj at gmail.com (Aditya Raj Kaul) Date: Mon, 22 Jun 2009 01:01:22 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] =?windows-1252?q?Don=92t_resume_talks_with_Pakistan?= =?windows-1252?q?=3A_Kashmiri_Pandits?= Message-ID: <6353c690906211231y9c808d6i879db3e10044fcd1@mail.gmail.com> Don’t resume talks with Pakistan: Kashmiri Pandits *Jammu, June 21 (IANS)* A Kashmiri Pandit group, Panun Kashmir, has warned India against resuming talks with Pakistan under US pressure. “Linking improvement in situation in Pakistan or for that matter in Kashmir as a basis of Kashmir resolution is a suicidal move,” said Ajay Charungoo, chairman of the Panun Kashmir, at a seminar here Sunday. Many speakers at the seminar, ‘Handling of J&K and its contours and implications’, organised by the Panun Kashmir urged India not to restore the peace process with Pakistan, which was stalled following the Nov 26 terror attack in Mumbai last year. India has been blaming “elements” in Pakistan for the Mumbai carnage which killed over 170 people. US President Barack Obama has said he would like India and Pakistan to have a dialogue to resolve their differences but ruled out any mediation in the process. “I believe that there are opportunities, maybe not starting with Kashmir but starting with other issues, that Pakistan and India can be in a dialogue together and over time try to reduce tensions and find areas of common interest,” Obama told Pakistan’s Dawn group in an interview published Sunday. New Delhi has maintained that peace talks with Islamabad would resume only after Pakistan takes “credible” action to stop “anti-India terror activities” from its soil. Prime Minister Manmohan Singh recently said New Delhi was prepared to meet Islamabad “more than halfway” if the latter takes “strong, effective and sustained action” against terrorists. “Manmohan Singh should not have said that he is willing to meet more than half way in holding talks with Islamabad if the terror is tamed there. These offers should wait till anti-India terrorism in Pakistan is brought to a complete halt,” Charungoo said. Congress leader and Jammu University teacher Hari Om also urged India “to assert its position rather than being driven by the US”. From shuddha at sarai.net Mon Jun 22 04:09:44 2009 From: shuddha at sarai.net (Shuddhabrata Sengupta) Date: Mon, 22 Jun 2009 04:09:44 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Shahidul Alam detained by Indian Border Security Force In-Reply-To: <669160.1827.qm@web53607.mail.re2.yahoo.com> References: <669160.1827.qm@web53607.mail.re2.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <1BB0B414-3DBA-4813-8EB2-7FD286B04D31@sarai.net> Dear Rahul, This is not a luddite argument. As far as I know, the internet, electricity and fire have not spawned a form of politics that led to two world wars in the twentieth century and numerous other forms of armed conflicts, and the obscenity of standing armies. Nations and nationalism have. And that is why I have a position against nationalism that cannot be automatically extended to the internet or to electricity. The two kinds of things have nothing in common other than the fact that they are made by human beings. We are often told that nation states are indispensable. We know that they are historically contingent, and as with all historically contingent matters, we can take a call as to whether or not they are worth having around. In other words, we can see for ourselves that they are not necessary for human beings to be what they are. Of course, we can just as well take a call about other human made things, like the ways in which we use electricity and the internet. And I am sure that there are people who wish that the internet was not around. But I am not one of them, and just because I have a stance against nationalism does not mean that I have a stance against all things that have arisen as a result of human effort. Nationalism is as much of a choice as is the internet and all other things shaped by human beings. But, there is nothing that dictates that choosing one must necessarily involve choosing the other. I hope I have made myself clear. best Shdudha On 22-Jun-09, at 12:55 AM, Rahul Asthana wrote: > > Dear Shuddha, > 1. "I merely talked about the arbitrariness of national borders to > demonstrate that they were not 'natural' and 'inherent' constructs, > and to show that just as human beings have done without them for > hundreds of thousands of years in the past, so too, they may well > do without them in the future. " > > This is essentially a Luddite argument-neither here nor there. You > can make the same argument about electricity , internet, fire etc. > > 2."I think people without entitlements and >> rights, people whose labour is alienated from them, people >> discriminated against for whatever reason to do with their >> birth or their choices have reason to construct solidarities >> against those who act against them and with those who share >> their circumstances." > "The claims of patriotism and nationalism (which >> seek to put the exploited and the exploiters in the same >> camp) in such instances act against the actuality of the >> solidarity of the oppressed." > ` > According to you, the benefit of having an opportunity to forge a > pan national solidarity against the exploiters the exploited > offsets the benefits accruing from a nation like a constitution > providing fundamental rights, a government that works to enforce > the rule of law, security against imperialist attacks,public > spending etc.A similar situation existed in the middle ages in some > parts of the world when ragtag militias controlled small portions > of land and kept fighting with each other for larger shares of > land, produce, riches etc.How will your proposed nation less model > of the world address the problems of law and order? > > 3.>and additionally, because I think that the >> nation is either too large, or too small a unit to address >> the problems facing human beings today. Too small to address >> global ecological devastation, too large to address the >> municipal issues of sanitation and transport or the >> allocation of resources like water for agriculture at a >> local level. > A problem like global ecological devastation certainly needs more > cooperation between nations. As for local problems > decentralization is not antithetical to the definition of a > nation.Can you explain how your alternative model will be more > conducive to solving problems like ecological devastation? > > 4.>Having said that, If you could have nations without standing > armies, I >would be more favorably inclined towards them, > > Armies have not been introduced by nations.They have existed long > before them.The idea of an army less world will not fly too far in > a real world scenario.Its only good for "What if" kind of articles. > > 5. "As of now, it seems to me that > enforcing the idea of a nation will always mean that > somebody's nation will always be somebody else's > violation." > The idea of a nation is dynamic. Its not married to its origin or > definition.It always undergoes constant change, discontinuities, > incorporations, and the `turf` never remains the same.The solution > is not to undo the idea of the nation completely , but activism > against your pet cause.Please remember, as long as greed and > inequity of power exists in this world there would always be > violations. > In any case,it would be easier to make this comparison if you > present some concrete ideas about your nation less model of the world. > > Thanks > Rahul > > > --- On Sun, 6/21/09, Shuddhabrata Sengupta wrote: > >> From: Shuddhabrata Sengupta >> Subject: Re: [Reader-list] Shahidul Alam detained by Indian Border >> Security Force >> To: "Rahul Asthana" >> Cc: "sarai list" >> Date: Sunday, June 21, 2009, 4:19 AM >> >> Dear Rahul, >> You have nothing against Bangladeshis, (and I >> never said you did, I was responding to someone else, who >> was making a point about the 'competing' poverties >> of Bangladeshis and Indians as a reason to erect walls >> between them). I have nothing against >> arbitrariness. >> I merely talked about the arbitrariness of >> national borders to demonstrate that they were not >> 'natural' and 'inherent' constructs, and to >> show that just as human beings have done without them for >> hundreds of thousands of years in the past, so too, they may >> well do without them in the future. >> I am against nations and boundaries, not because >> they are arbitrary, but because they are, in my view, as >> they stand, inimical to necessary solidarities, at the >> basic, human level. I think people without entitlements and >> rights, people whose labour is alienated from them, people >> discriminated against for whatever reason to do with their >> birth or their choices have reason to construct solidarities >> against those who act against them and with those who share >> their circumstances. >> Typically, these solidarities cut across the >> borders that divide nations. Fishermen who straddle a >> coastline shared by two nations have much to gain by acting >> together against large trawling operations that may >> originate in their respective countries. In this case, the >> interests of lets say, Indian and Bangladeshi fishermen >> vis-a-vis large commercial trawling operations conducted by >> vested interests in India and Bangladesh are ranged >> together, and against those who are more powerful in their >> own countries. >> The claims of patriotism and nationalism (which >> seek to put the exploited and the exploiters in the same >> camp) in such instances act against the actuality of the >> solidarity of the oppressed. This is the reason why I am >> against nations, and additionally, because I think that the >> nation is either too large, or too small a unit to address >> the problems facing human beings today. Too small to address >> global ecological devastation, too large to address the >> municipal issues of sanitation and transport or the >> allocation of resources like water for agriculture at a >> local level. My reasons for opposing nations have very >> little to do with any 'rosy hued' ideals of >> universal brotherhood, and much more to do with the >> practical and day to day problems of existence in the >> twentieth century, which are constantly deferred by the >> endless wasted symbolic baggage of nations, national >> borders, large bloated militaries and pointless wars. These >> are the illusions I wish we could be rid >> of. >> Having said that, If you could have >> nations without standing armies, I would be more favorably >> inclined towards them, as I am to many forms of association >> that range from football clubs to esperanto societies, even >> if I have no active interest in them. Then the rituals of >> nationalism would for me be as dull and uninteresting (and >> just as harmless) as the protocols of the Rotary Club. I >> would have nothing against it, I would not be enthusiastic >> for it, but at least it would not burden my life and the >> life of our communities with the things I think that we can >> all no longer afford. >> Finally, to answer your other question, frankly, >> I do not know how a nation can be 'defined'. For >> every principle, no matter how it is expressed, be it in >> singular or plural registers, be they inguistic, >> cultural, ethnic, religious - there seem to be exceptions. >> So, no one definition of nations will do. Since no one >> definition of nation is operative, we have to accept that >> nations cannot be constructed in a manner that can be ever >> universally acceptable. As of now, it seems to me that >> enforcing the idea of a nation will always mean that >> somebody's nation will always be somebody else's >> violation. >> regards >> Shuddha >> >> >> On 21-Jun-09, at 3:55 AM, Rahul Asthana >> wrote: >> >> P.S. >> Would it be logical to assume that you would not have a >> problem with immigration restrictions if they were based on >> realpolitik? >> --- >> On Sun, 6/21/09, Rahul Asthana >> wrote: >> From: >> Rahul Asthana Subject: >> Re: [Reader-list] Shahidul Alam detained by Indian Border >> Security ForceTo: >> "Shuddhabrata Sengupta" Cc: >> "sarai list" Date: >> Sunday, June 21, 2009, 3:51 AM >> 1. >> Please clarify how the process of definition of a >> nationis >> linked with your argument of discarding >> "artificial,ephemeral, >> man-made borders".Are >> you saying that "artificial, ephemeral, >> man-madeborders" >> should be discarded because they are arbitrary? >> 2. >> I did not imply by my earlier email that every >> principleof >> immigration can be implied to every immigration >> relationbetween >> two nations.So you do not need to disprove that bygiving >> counterexamples. >> 3. >> "Lets face it. The reason why people do not like >> havingto >> deal with Bangladeshis has much more to do >> with prejudice >> than it has to do with realpolitik." I >> personally have no problem with Bangladeshis.I >> havenothing >> more to add on this particular point. >> ThanksRahul >> >> >> >> >> >> >> --- >> On Sun, 6/21/09, Shuddhabrata Sengupta wrote: >> From: >> Shuddhabrata Sengupta Subject: >> Re: [Reader-list] Shahidul Alam detained by >> Indian >> Border Security Force To: >> "Rahul Asthana" Cc: >> "sarai list" , >> "anupam >> chakravartty" >> Date: >> Sunday, June 21, 2009, 3:22 AM >> No, >> I do not think we are in agreement at all. The >> example >> of >> Poland which I gave demonstrates how arbitrary theprinciples >> of exclusion are and have been historically. >> There >> is nothing 'necessary' about the decisionstaken >> at the Polish border. If these decisions can bereversed >> one way or another, so easily, it proves that >> there >> is >> nothing inherently necessary to them at all. They >> are >> contingent. >> The whole idea of the nation state is >> contingent >> on >> the historical circumstances that have developed >> since >> the >> treaty of Westphalia outlined the beginnings of >> the >> modern >> state system. Being contingent, they are >> subject >> to fundamental >> change. Today, at a time when nothing from >> the >> fluctuations >> of the financial system to the question >> of >> climate >> change can be addressed at national levels, I >> find >> it >> odd that some of us can still cling on to the >> fetish >> of borders >> and nation states as if they were'necessary'. I >> find that clinging 'idealistic'. itseems >> to fly in the face of the actual objective >> structural >> realities >> of the contemporary world. As >> for your conditions, each one of them can beunpicked. There >> are greater if not more 'securitythreats' >> from the citizens of a given nation state toitself, >> than there are from the citizens of other >> states. >> If that >> is so, how far inwards should the protocols of >> the >> 'border' >> and its exclusionary principles bedrawn? Reciprocity >> is not necessarily the basis forinternational >> relations, as demonstrated by the simple >> case >> of >> the utterly un-reciprocal relationships that obtain >> at >> the >> US Mexico border. Diplomatic >> relationships have barely anything todo >> with the situation at border controls. India has >> full >> fledged >> diplomatic relationships with Pakistan andBangladesh, >> and yet, this does not influence thehumiliations >> that Indians, Pakistanis and Bangladeshis >> have >> to >> face in the hands of each other's borderauthorities. India >> has border disputes with China, Pakistanand >> with Bangladesh, and yet, refugees from Chinesecontrolled >> TIbet have had an easier time getting into >> and >> staying >> in India than have people from say, Bangladesh. >> So clearly, >> border disputes are not the crucial determining >> factor. Lets >> face it. The reason why people do not likehaving >> to deal with Bangladeshis has much more to do >> with >> prejudice >> than it has to do withrealpolitik. regardsShuddha >> >> As far as the principles outlined by you are concerned - >> On >> 21-Jun-09, at 3:09 AM, Rahul Asthanawrote: >> 1.So >> Shuddha, I believe that we are in agreement thatArtificial, >> ephemeral, man-made borders arenecessary.2.NowI >> think your issue is with the selective immigrationpolicies >> of nations.These immigration policies may be >> based >> on >> the following reasons a)reciprocationor >> bi-lateral cooperationb)perceivedsecurity >> threat by the citizens of a particularnationc)Diplomaticrelations >> between two nationsd)Border >> disputes between two nations etc.Ido >> not claim this to be a comprehensive >> list. Doesthis >> answer your question? ThanksRahul---On >> Sun, 6/21/09, Shuddhabrata Sengupta wrote: >> From:Shuddhabrata >> Sengupta Subject:Re: >> [Reader-list] Shahidul Alam detained by Indian >> Border >> Security >> ForceTo:"Rahul >> Asthana" Cc:"sarai >> list" ,"anupam >> chakravartty" Date:Sunday, >> June 21, 2009, 2:49 AMWhereexactly >> does the continuity of the nation statebecomethe >> discontinuity of the border? Let's takethecountrycurrently >> known as Poland. In the twentiethcenturydifferentbits >> of it have been in Russia, Germany, LithuaniaandSlovakia. >> Today, Poland is part of the Schengensystemanda >> part of the European Union. Over the last onehundredorso >> years, Poland has had its borders redefined invariousways.Until >> the early nineties of the twentieth century,itwasimpossible >> for some one from France to come toPolandwithouta >> strict visa system, but it was relatively easyforpeoplefrom >> Vietnam to come to Poland as students andguestworkers,today >> the situation is exactly the opposite. So,howexactly >> has the border acted in a way other thanarbitrarily. >> What >> makes Vietnamese welcome, Frenchunwelcome,and >> then vice versa across a matter of a >> fewyears? Ican >> see your point about the fact that someunitsof >> management of space have to exist, but why dothesehaveto >> operate on the basis of exclusion? Whatpurposesdoesexclusion >> serve? What is the way in whichpriniciplesofexclusion >> can be made fair and just? Can they bemadefairand >> just? Whatis >> it that dictates, for instance, thatNepaliscan >> at present live and work in India withoutvisas,andthat >> Bangladeshis cant? Finally,and >> this is a response to Rakesh. Ihavenot >> heard people whom we normally nominate as thepoor,complainabout >> the presence of Bangladeshis in our city.Forinstance,Delhi >> has a large population of Bangladeshimigrantworkers >> who live in squatter settlements. Theirnon-Bangladeshi >> neighbours >> who live in squatter settlementsdonot >> normally lead the climate of opinion that >> seesBangladeshi >> immigrants >> as a problem. Frankly, they haveneitherthe >> property, nor the entitlements to think oftheirBangladeshineigbours >> as encroachers, primarily because theyareseen >> as encroachers themselves. The only people whomIhaveheard >> complain about the presence of BangladeshisinDelhiare >> those with property and entitlement, to whomtheaverageBangladeshi >> constitutes no rivalrousthreat. Thisis >> somewhat paradoxical, those who complainaboutthe >> presence of Bangladeshis in Delhi are thosewhoareclearly >> not in a position to be the competitiorsforresourceswith >> Bangladeshis. This makes me wonder whereexactlythe >> antipathy stems from. My hunch is, prejudice,which >> is >> passed on as an altruistic defence of the poorwithwhomthe >> carriers of the prejudices have nothing incommon.Interesting,isnt >> it? bestShuddhaOn21-Jun-09, >> at 12:54 AM, RahulAsthanawrote:DearShuddha,Pleasereadmy >> reply to Anupam.The analogy was notimplied.Ithinkthat >> there can be valid reasons to enforce man made,ephemeral, >> artificial etc. borders. That catch-all >> reasonaloneis >> not enough to strike down the restriction forfreeflowof >> human beings between national borders. Inprinciple >> there >> is nothing wrong or right about free flow >> ofcapital >> or >> human beings."Artificial, >> ephemeral,man-made"geographical >> and administrational borders arenecessary,among >> other >> things because of the simple reason ofaccountability >> and >> manageability, as functional units foreconomicco-operation >> and security.Someone representing aparticular >> geographic >> continuum is accountable andresponsiblefor >> the decisions taken with respect toit.Iwantyou >> to come up with some good reasons why you thinktheboundariesand >> definition of a nation state should not >> beobserved. >> Let >> me repeat, saying that it is an"artificial,ephemeral, >> man-made border" , so itshouldbe >> stricken down is not a good reason.ThanksRahul---OnSat, >> 6/20/09, Shuddhabrata Sengupta wrote: >> From:ShuddhabrataSengupta >> Subject:Re:[Reader-list] >> Shahidul Alam detained by IndianBorderSecurityForceTo:"RahulAsthana" >> Cc:"sarailist" >> ,"anupamchakravartty" >> Date:Saturday,June >> 20, 2009, 2:28 AM DearRahul, Ihavealways >> felt quite at home in the world,regardlessofwhether >> I was on the terrace of my OldRajendraNagarhouse >> in New Delhi, which once housedrefugeesfromWest >> Pakistan before it housed my migrantparentsandme >> (where I live), or I was on hilltop inDamascus,orin >> a ruined factory in Warsaw, or on theborderbetweenEastand >> West Jerusalem. I do not sense a feelingofbeing'not >> at >> home' when I am not in my owncountry,andthereare >> many places in my own country, where I >> donotfeelquite >> as >> home as I would have liked to, for instanceinthewide, >> paranoiac, >> expansive and empty boulevardsofLutyensDelhi.In >> Delhi, take me to Akbar Road, and I willfeelaforeigner >> (even a bit of an illegal migrant),leavemein >> Karol >> Bagh, Chitli Qabar, Mehrauli, Khan MarketorJungpura,and >> I >> will do just fine. Home, after all, is >> wheretheheart >> is. >> And my heart is not in the LutyensBungalowZoneofNew >> Delhi. SoIdon't >> quite understand the analogy oflockedhomesand >> fenced countries. After all, we lock ourhomes,primarily >> against >> the possible attacks of our ownfellowcitizens. >> So, >> since we lock our homes against ourownfellowcitizens, >> logically, >> then, following your line ofthinking,should >> we >> not turn the whole country into one vastprison,where >> everyone >> watches out for the danger thatiseverybodyelse.Wedon't >> even have to look as far as thenextBangladeshi.Or,as >> my >> friends and I had reason to say inanothercontext,'Is >> the outer wall of the detentioncentre,theinner >> wall of the >> city?"regards, ShuddhaOn19-Jun-09,at >> 9:39 PM, Rahul Asthanawrote:DearAnupam,Yourquestionis >> a >> straw man.I am not drawing any analogybetweennationand >> home.My >> question to Shuddha is based uponhisstatementaboutartificial >> borders etc.ThanksRahul ShuddhabrataSenguptaTheSarai >> Programme >> atCSDSRaqsMediaCollectiveshuddha at sarai.netwww.sarai.netwww.raqsmediac >> ollective.net >> >> >> >> ShuddhabrataSenguptaTheSarai >> Programme atCSDSRaqsMedia >> Collectiveshuddha at sarai.netwww.sarai.netwww.raqsmediacollective.net >> >> >> >> ShuddhabrataSenguptaThe >> Sarai Programme atCSDSRaqs >> Media >> Collectiveshuddha at sarai.netwww.sarai.netwww.raqsmediacollective.net >> >> >> >> _________________________________________reader-list: >> an open discussion list on media and thecity.Critiques >> & CollaborationsTo >> subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.netwith >> subscribe in the subject header.To >> unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list List >> archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> >> >> >> >> >> Shuddhabrata >> SenguptaThe Sarai Programme at >> CSDSRaqs Media >> Collectiveshuddha at sarai.netwww.sarai.netwww.raqsmediacollective.net >> >> > > > Shuddhabrata Sengupta The Sarai Programme at CSDS Raqs Media Collective shuddha at sarai.net www.sarai.net www.raqsmediacollective.net From aiindex at gmail.com Mon Jun 22 04:41:36 2009 From: aiindex at gmail.com (Harsh Kapoor) Date: Mon, 22 Jun 2009 01:11:36 +0200 Subject: [Reader-list] Detained in India, arrested in Bangladesh Message-ID: New Age, 22 June 2009 Detained in India, arrested in Bangladesh Shahidul Alam in an interview with Rahnuma Ahmed Please tell us about your project and why you were detained by the Indian Border Security Force. I started the Brahmaputra project in the late 1990s. It’s an incredible river that goes from Tibet through Arunachal and Assam in India, into Bangladesh and all the way into the Bay of Bengal. In the early part of the project I’d done some video footage in Tibet and India, but not any in Bangladesh. We at Drik felt that we should try and produce a film, so my colleagues in the audiovisual department, Sumeru Mukhopadhyay and Abul Kasem, and I went off to Nijhum Deep in the south, in the Bay of Bengal on 11th June for 3 days. We returned to Dhaka, then went to Rowmari on the 15th to photograph the section of the river where it crosses from India to Bangladesh. We drove up to Chilmari, went by boat to the Rowmari side, found a guesthouse. It was late afternoon, and we thought we should go out on a recce. As photographers we had obviously cameras, and I had a video camera with me. As it often happens in villages, distances are not the same as we measure it in the city, so whenever we asked people where it was, they’d say, ‘just out there’, ‘a little bit further’, ‘ten more minutes...’ We ended up travelling quite a long way, by van, a little by boat, then we walked through market places, by people’s homes, with cameras dangling on either side, three strangers, creating a lot of attention. At one point we were walking across some paddy fields, and an elderly farmer stopped me and said, this is a difficult way to go, why don’t you go on to the road which is nearby. This was a clay track road, very overgrown, not much of a road, but soon after I got on to this road armed BSF (Indian Border Security Force) people from the other side of the fence beckoned me. I knew this was a dangerous situation. I knew that 52 Bangladeshis had been gunned down by the BSF during the last 6 months. I was possibly only 50 yards away – well within their shooting range. It wasn’t sensible to do anything other than comply. So, I walked calmly towards them, making plans about how I should proceed. As I had sort of expected when I got close to the gate, they opened the gate, several of them ran out and literally dragged me inside. And locked the gate. I was well and truly within India. You mean there were no border signposts. No, there was absolutely no sign mentioning territory, or that we were crossing into restricted zone, whether it was no man’s land or anything else. These were paddy fields we were walking across. When I got onto this dirt track, there was still no sign. One could see there was the Indian border far away, one could certainly see the fence. And it was soon after I got onto the dirt track that the BSF beckoned me. But before that, there’d been absolutely no indication that we were outside anywhere of Bangladesh. But what about BDR soldiers? No, none. Certainly, we’d expected there to be BDR jawans and other people, or at least some sort of an indication near the border, but there weren’t any. After the BSF pulled you into their gates, what happened? Did they assault you? No. They came out and grabbed me, and dragged me in. They (how many were they?) about 5 or 6, there were more inside, they were a bit rough in dragging me in but I wouldn’t say I was assaulted. As a seasoned photojournalist, how did you strategise, to get out of this situation? Well, since I was in their firing range what was most important was to stay alive. Once inside, there was the question of avoiding physical violence. I felt I would be much safer in the hands of senior officers than in the hands of jawans, trigger-happy jawans in particular. Knowing the history between the BSF and Bangladeshis, I felt that presenting myself as a Bangladeshi was going to be suicidal. I made the decision that I was going to be a foreign photographer, out on an assignment. I decided I would speak only in English. I did have Bangladeshi identity with me which I didn’t want to show. I also had a UK driver’s license, so it made sense for me to be British. I mentioned National Geographic because that was a known name and even out here the jawans might have heard of it. I also calculated that bringing in a US component could give me some sort of insularity, given the power of the US, and the fact that India was its close ally. As for the National Geographic, I am on their Advisory Board. I give a lecture there every year, I’m involved in many of their seminars so I do have a long relationship with the organisation but I wasn’t on assignment for them. My initial attempt at convincing them that I was a foreigner with British and US connections was merely power play. I was trying to make sure the jawans felt I wasn’t some Bangladeshi they could beat up and kill, but someone from far away, who had better connections. And frankly, I was using the race and class card. What happened after that? Well, talk of the National Geographic, of being British, shook them a little bit. Of course, I pretended I didn’t speak Bangla or Hindi. I heard them talking amongst each other, saying that perhaps it wasn’t such a good idea to take a foreigner, perhaps they should let him go. I decided to push my luck further. I said, unless you let me speak to my National Geographic colleagues they might report to head office. Then I rang you, my partner, and I spoke to you in my best British accent. I remember it took you a little while since we don’t speak to each other in English, but you quickly twigged. More for the audience than for anyone else, I fairly loudly told you to inform the prime minister, the home minister, the BDR people, the BSF head, etc. I pulled names out of my hat willy-nilly, but making sure they were important-sounding names, so that that these jawans recognised that I was a very important person, with important connections. How were you treated by BSF once they knew that you were a big-shot photographer? Once the officers arrived, I felt, I was more in control. They wanted to look at my identity card, asked for my address. Soon, the officer, a Mr PK Roy, a Bengali, was convinced that I was not an ordinary Bangladeshi but probably an important foreign photographer. Their attitude began to change. He asked the jawans to get me a cup of tea. Later, he got a phone call, from obviously a senior person on his side, who presumably told him that I should be released, that I should be taken good care of. Now, it was a question of the information percolating down to the lower levels of command, and getting a written confirmation from his immediate superiors before he could release me. Much later, sweets were bought from the market. The tone of the conversation, and the dynamics, changed completely. But, as it was getting dark, they were convinced no handover would take place at night. I was taken to a guesthouse nearby, into a room, with a television, a telephone with a handle, a bed, an attached bathroom. Very clean, very pleasant place, and given dinner. Mr PK Roy was very concerned that I was made to feel looked after. I spoke to his commander who was extremely polite, apologised for the situation, and said that the BDR had been informed. I would be handed over to the BDR, as soon as communication took place. I thanked him, and assured him that I was being well looked after. It was a very civil conversation. What were your concerns then, as a photographer? I’d been taking pictures along the way. I’d been shooting with a wide angle lens. I was pretty certain that my wide angle shots, my landscape photos etc, would have segments of the space I was going through, which I now realised was illegal. I didn’t want to get caught with these pictures, so I worked out how to remove this incriminating evidence. What happened after you were handed over? It was at 11:15, right? Yes, around then. It was pitch dark, dense shrubbery, bad roads. We came to a point where Mr PK Roy said this is where the sign is [Indian no man’s land begins]. So I said, well, please show me the sign. They looked around, but couldn’t find it. They apologised and said, please believe us, it’s here, we can’t find it right now. Then they met the BDR people, again, a very civil meeting. The BSF produced a document for the BDR to sign, when I was handed over. Once the Indians left, the BDR subedar got a phone call from his commanding officer. He spoke to me then, and initially accused me, apni lukie gecchen, you sneaked into this place. I strongly objected because we’d come in broad daylight, three of us, we had equipment, we had asked people for directions. He then changed his tack. He said there were some formalities which I had to go through, papers I needed to sign. Of course, I agreed. And did you learn from the Kurigram BDR, how they came to know of your detention by the BSF? Was it locally, or from Dhaka? No, I found out later from conversations, they’d received the information from Dhaka. In fact, the subedar was very worried about this. When the BDR director general had rung from Dhaka, he had specific information about where I was. But the local-level BDR hadn’t a clue. And why do you think those at the local-level didn’t know? I was told about this later. I was chatting to them and they said, we’d normally have known. It wouldn’t have occurred but we had some VIP guests. We had been busy entertaining the VIPs. And after that...? Initially, we went to the BDR camp, three of us on a motorcycle, miles away from where this incident took place. They offered me food which had apparently been prepared for the VIP guests so it was good food. They kept saying another 5-10 minutes, but after a long time, I said look, what’s going on here, I want to get back. We eventually started walking but instead of taking me to the guesthouse, they took me to the thana. Another long wait, close conversations between BDR personnel and police. At one stage, I said, I’m very appreciative that you’ve got me out of India. But I’m now a citizen in my own country, you have no right to keep me here unless you’re arresting me for something. I got up to walk away and that’s when I realised they weren’t going to let me leave the place. By then I learnt from local people who had come to the thana that the BDR was about to file a case against me. At this stage I rang you again, this was about 2:30/3:00 in the morning. Shortly after this, they confiscated my cameras, and my phone. I no longer had direct access to anyone. So, why did the Bangladesh government file a case against you? It’s conjecture, of course. The local BDR were extremely worried about the predicament they were in. The fact that they had no knowledge of this incident, that the border had been completely un-manned, that there was no BDR person in sight, that they didn’t know about it even after the local people had gotten to know. It left them with egg on their face. And again, the original accusation by the colonel suggested that there was an attempt to put the blame and onus upon us, that we had sneaked into this place, which was clearly not true. So, there was huge negligence on the part of the BDR, and I suspect they needed some sort of a diversionary tactic to cover up for their omission. Did your bail application and the court proceedings go through smoothly? Yes, everyone was very cooperative. I was also granted permission to travel abroad. I am scheduled for an exclusive photo shoot with Nelson Mandela, and there are other important assignments that I wouldn’t like to miss, yes, things went very well. Most Kurigram lawyers and journalists were they. They rallied around me. If you were not who you are, what could have happened? Possibly, the worst. The BDR men themselves told me that I’d done a very wise thing by walking up to them, not attempting to run, or doing anything silly. They said they were scared to go to these places. That, sometimes, criminals take shelter from the police by going to these regions because they know that the police are scared of venturing there. So, by all concerned it was known to be dangerous territory. That there was a huge amount of harassment, they themselves felt harassed, and certainly ordinary people were harassed, but what they kept coming back to every time was, you’d probably have been dead. You saw the fence built by the Indian government at close quarters – probably closer than you had planned (laughter, audible) – I’d like to know what you think of that. I have been to many countries. I have seen many borders. I know of the Palestinian border, but outside of that this is certainly the most imposing, dominating, scary, border post that I have come across. I’ve gone across the Germany-Poland border, where you’ve had surveillance equipment, you’ve had people with night shooting guns, but in none of those situations have I seen anything that looks as scary as this particular fence. The fact that we are neighbouring countries, the fact that we are meant to have a friendly relationship, is no way signified by the presence of a physical entity of this sort. One of the things that also worries me is that there are many people who have friends, relatives, very close ones across the border, they have to travel one day to get to Rajshahi, apply for a visa a month in advance, the costs, the time, the preparation, all of the things that need to be done merely to be able to go across to visit a near one, simply cannot be condoned. Considering that India has played such an important role in the liberation of Bangladesh, one would have expected a very, very different relationship between these two countries. Considering that we call ourselves members of SAARC [South Asian Association for Regional Cooperation], we’d expect far more cordial relations between ourselves. The fence, the fact that the BSF is so trigger-happy, the fact that 52 Bangladeshis have been gunned down in the last 6 months, the fact that it is a zone of terror for local people and for our BDR, speaks volumes of what it should not be about. How high is the fence? The gate itself, I’m trying to remember now, large black gates, double gates, about ten feet tall, 20 feet wide, I think. But the fence, the barbed wire extends above that, [what, it extends above the gate?] well, not above the gate itself, but it’s higher than the gate, stretching on both sides, as far as the eye can see. It’s still quite early, but how do you look back at the incident? That’s a big question. My first concern is that I have to finish my story so I have to work. The story is incomplete, it needs to be told, not only the Brahmaputra story, but given this situation, the border story. I think it becomes even more important today, knowing what I do now, that we question the structures that makes such a situation possible. But, before anything else, I need to thank the many, many people who have done so much for me over this period of time. And again, I reflect upon this in a different way. Obviously, I am happy that I am out of danger. But I also reflect upon two issues, one, the fact that while I was detained and later released by India, I have actually been arrested by my own country in the course of doing what happens to be my duty, what is in the public interest. I also think it is important to reflect on the fact that at a political level, at an official level, there are these huge differences between our nations, but at a human level, at a personal level, there exists huge camaraderie. Some of the people who did the most in getting me released were my colleagues, my journalist friends across the border in India, and of course, Mahasweta Devi. She had, as you know, inaugurated CchobiMela V, so, in a way this reflects how we as professionals, as artists, as individuals, have this camaraderie, have this openness, have this mutual respect, have this pull toward each other, which does not seem to be reflected by the people who govern our nations. From rahul_capri at yahoo.com Mon Jun 22 06:00:08 2009 From: rahul_capri at yahoo.com (Rahul Asthana) Date: Sun, 21 Jun 2009 17:30:08 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Reader-list] Shahidul Alam detained by Indian Border Security Force Message-ID: <317016.67468.qm@web53605.mail.re2.yahoo.com> Dear Shuddha, I responded to your own argument.I quoted you as well. I am quoting you again. "and to show that just as > human beings have done without them for hundreds of > thousands of years in the past, so too, they may well do > without them in the future." This was the part of your argument which I called Luddite.I also said that such an argument CAN NOT STAND ON ITS OWN.Hope this helps. Thanks Rahul --- On Mon, 6/22/09, Shuddhabrata Sengupta wrote: > From: Shuddhabrata Sengupta > Subject: Re: [Reader-list] Shahidul Alam detained by Indian Border Security Force > To: "Rahul Asthana" > Cc: "sarai list" > Date: Monday, June 22, 2009, 4:09 AM > > Dear Rahul,  > This is not a luddite argument. As far as I > know, the internet, electricity and fire have not spawned a > form of politics that led to two world wars in the twentieth > century and numerous other forms of armed conflicts, and the > obscenity of standing armies. Nations and nationalism have. > And that is why I have a position against nationalism that > cannot be automatically extended to the internet or to > electricity. The two kinds of things have nothing in common > other than the fact that they are made by human > beings.  > We are often told that nation states are > indispensable. We know that they are historically > contingent, and as with all historically contingent matters, > we can take a call as to whether or not they are worth > having around. In other words, we can see for ourselves that > they are not necessary for human beings to be what they are. > Of course, we can just as well take a call about other human > made things, like the ways in which we use electricity and > the internet. And I am sure that there are people who wish > that the internet was not around. But I am not one of them, > and just because I have a stance against nationalism does > not mean that I have a stance against all things that have > arisen as a result of human effort.  > Nationalism is as much of a choice as is the > internet and all other things shaped by human beings. But, >  there is nothing that dictates that choosing one must > necessarily involve choosing the other.  > I hope I have made myself clear.  > best > ShdudhaOn 22-Jun-09, at > 12:55 AM, Rahul Asthana wrote: > > Dear > Shuddha,1. > "I merely talked about the arbitrariness of national > borders to demonstrate that they were not 'natural' > and 'inherent' constructs, and to show that just as > human beings have done without them for hundreds of > thousands of years in the past, so too, they may well do > without them in the future. " > This > is essentially a Luddite argument-neither here nor there. > You can make the same argument about electricity , internet, > fire etc. > 2."I > think people without entitlements and rights, > people whose labour is alienated from them, peoplediscriminated > against for whatever reason to do with theirbirth > or their choices have reason to construct > solidaritiesagainst > those who act against them and with those who > sharetheir > circumstances." "The > claims of patriotism and nationalism (which > seek > to put the exploited and the exploiters in the > samecamp) > in such instances act against the actuality of thesolidarity > of the oppressed." `According > to you, the benefit of having an opportunity to forge a  pan national > solidarity against the exploiters the exploited offsets the > benefits accruing from a nation like a constitution > providing fundamental rights, a government that works to > enforce the rule of law, security against imperialist > attacks,public spending etc.A similar situation existed in > the middle ages in some parts of the world when ragtag > militias controlled small portions of land and kept fighting > with each other for larger shares of land, produce, riches > etc.How will your proposed nation less model of the world > address the problems of law and order?  > 3.>and > additionally, because I think that the nation > is either too large, or too small a unit to > addressthe > problems facing human beings today. Too small to > addressglobal > ecological devastation, too large to address themunicipal > issues of sanitation and transport or theallocation > of resources like water for agriculture at alocal > level. A > problem like global ecological devastation certainly needs > more cooperation between nations. As for local problems > decentralization  > is not antithetical to the definition of a nation.Can > you explain how your alternative model will be more > conducive to solving problems like ecological > devastation? > 4.>Having > said that,  > If you could have  nations without > standing armies, I >would be more favorably  inclined towards > them, > Armies > have not been introduced by nations.They have existed long > before them.The idea of an army less world will not fly too > far in a real world scenario.Its only good for "What > if" kind of articles. > 5. > "As of now, it seems to me that enforcing the > idea of a nation will always mean that somebody's > nation will always be somebody else's violation."The > idea of a nation is dynamic. Its not married to its origin > or definition.It always undergoes  constant change, > discontinuities, incorporations, and the `turf` never > remains the same.The solution is not to undo the idea of the > nation completely , but activism against your pet > cause.Please remember, as long as greed and inequity of > power exists in this world there would always be > violations.In > any case,it would be easier to make this comparison if you > present some concrete ideas about your nation less model of > the world. > ThanksRahul > > --- > On Sun, 6/21/09, Shuddhabrata Sengupta > wrote: > From: > Shuddhabrata Sengupta Subject: > Re: [Reader-list] Shahidul Alam detained by Indian Border > Security ForceTo: > "Rahul Asthana" Cc: > "sarai list" Date: > Sunday, June 21, 2009, 4:19 AM > Dear > Rahul, You > have nothing against Bangladeshis, (and Inever > said you did, I was responding to someone else, > whowas > making a point about the 'competing' > povertiesof > Bangladeshis and Indians as a reason to erect > wallsbetween > them). I have nothing againstarbitrariness. I > merely talked about the arbitrariness ofnational > borders to demonstrate that they were not'natural' > and 'inherent' constructs, and toshow > that just as human beings have done without them > forhundreds > of thousands of years in the past, so too, they > maywell > do without them in the future. I > am against nations and boundaries, not becausethey > are arbitrary, but because they are, in my view, > asthey > stand, inimical to necessary solidarities, at thebasic, > human level. I think people without entitlements > andrights, > people whose labour is alienated from them, peoplediscriminated > against for whatever reason to do with theirbirth > or their choices have reason to construct > solidaritiesagainst > those who act against them and with those who > sharetheir > circumstances. Typically, > these solidarities cut across theborders > that divide nations. Fishermen who straddle acoastline > shared by two nations have much to gain by actingtogether > against large trawling operations that mayoriginate > in their respective countries. In this case, theinterests > of lets say, Indian and Bangladeshi fishermenvis-a-vis > large commercial trawling operations conducted byvested > interests in India and Bangladesh are rangedtogether, > and against those who are more powerful in theirown > countries. The > claims of patriotism and nationalism (whichseek > to put the exploited and the exploiters in the > samecamp) > in such instances act against the actuality of thesolidarity > of the oppressed. This is the reason why I amagainst > nations, and additionally, because I think that > thenation > is either too large, or too small a unit to > addressthe > problems facing human beings today. Too small to > addressglobal > ecological devastation, too large to address themunicipal > issues of sanitation and transport or theallocation > of resources like water for agriculture at alocal > level. My reasons for opposing nations have verylittle > to do with any 'rosy hued' ideals ofuniversal > brotherhood, and much more to do with thepractical > and day to day problems of existence in thetwentieth > century, which are constantly deferred by theendless > wasted symbolic baggage of nations, nationalborders, > large bloated militaries and pointless wars. Theseare > the illusions I wish we could be ridof. Having > said that,  If you could havenations > without standing armies, I would be more favorablyinclined > towards them, as I am to many forms of associationthat > range from football clubs to esperanto societies, > evenif > I have no active interest in them. Then the rituals > ofnationalism > would for me be as dull and uninteresting (andjust > as harmless) as the protocols of the Rotary Club. > Iwould > have nothing against it, I would not be > enthusiasticfor > it, but at least it would not burden my life and > thelife > of our communities with the things I think that we > canall > no longer afford. Finally, > to answer your other question, frankly,I > do not know how a nation can be 'defined'. > Forevery > principle, no matter how it is expressed, be it insingular > or plural registers,  be they inguistic,cultural, > ethnic, religious - there seem to be exceptions.So, > no one definition of nations will do. Since no onedefinition > of nation is operative, we have to accept thatnations > cannot be constructed in a manner that can be everuniversally > acceptable. As of now, it seems to me thatenforcing > the idea of a nation will always mean thatsomebody's > nation will always be somebody else'sviolation. regardsShuddha > > On > 21-Jun-09, at 3:55 AM, Rahul Asthanawrote: > P.S.Would > it be logical to assume that you would not have aproblem > with immigration restrictions if they were based > onrealpolitik?---On > Sun, 6/21/09, Rahul Asthana wrote: From:Rahul > Asthana Subject:Re: > [Reader-list] Shahidul Alam detained by Indian > BorderSecurity > ForceTo:"Shuddhabrata > Sengupta" Cc:"sarai > list" Date:Sunday, > June 21, 2009, 3:51 AM1.Please > clarify how the process of definition of anationislinked > with your argument of discarding"artificial,ephemeral,man-made > borders".Areyou > saying that "artificial, ephemeral,man-madeborders"should > be discarded because they are arbitrary?2.I > did not imply by my earlier email that everyprincipleofimmigration > can be implied to every immigrationrelationbetweentwo > nations.So you do not need to disprove that > bygivingcounterexamples.3."Lets > face it. The reason why people do not likehavingtodeal > with Bangladeshis has much more to dowith prejudicethan > it has to do with realpolitik." Ipersonally > have no problem with Bangladeshis.Ihavenothingmore > to add on this particular point.ThanksRahul > > > > > > ---On > Sun, 6/21/09, Shuddhabrata Sengupta wrote: From:Shuddhabrata > Sengupta Subject:Re: > [Reader-list] Shahidul Alam detained byIndianBorder > Security Force To:"Rahul > Asthana" Cc:"sarai > list" ,"anupamchakravartty" > Date:Sunday, > June 21, 2009, 3:22 AMNo,I > do not think we are in agreement at all. TheexampleofPoland > which I gave demonstrates how arbitrary > theprinciplesof > exclusion are and have been historically.Thereis > nothing 'necessary' about the > decisionstakenat > the Polish border. If these decisions can > bereversedone > way or another, so easily, it proves thatthereisnothing > inherently necessary to them at all. Theyarecontingent.The > whole idea of the nation state iscontingentonthe > historical circumstances that have developedsincethetreaty > of Westphalia outlined the beginnings ofthemodernstate > system. Being contingent, they aresubjectto > fundamentalchange. > Today, at a time when nothing fromthefluctuationsof > the financial system to the questionofclimatechange > can be addressed at national levels, Ifinditodd > that some of us can still cling on to thefetishof > bordersand > nation states as if they > were'necessary'. Ifind > that clinging 'idealistic'. itseemsto > fly in the face of the actual objectivestructuralrealitiesof > the contemporary world. Asfor > your conditions, each one of them can > beunpicked. Thereare > greater if not more 'securitythreats'from > the citizens of a given nation state toitself,than > there are from the citizens of otherstates.If > thatis > so, how far inwards should the protocols ofthe'border'and > its exclusionary principles > bedrawn? Reciprocityis > not necessarily the basis forinternationalrelations, > as demonstrated by the simplecaseofthe > utterly un-reciprocal relationships that obtainattheUS > Mexico border. Diplomaticrelationships > have barely anything todowith > the situation at border controls. India hasfullfledgeddiplomatic > relationships with Pakistan andBangladesh,and > yet, this does not influence thehumiliationsthat > Indians, Pakistanis and Bangladeshishavetoface > in the hands of each other's > borderauthorities. Indiahas > border disputes with China, Pakistanandwith > Bangladesh, and yet, refugees from > ChinesecontrolledTIbet > have had an easier time getting intoandstayingin > India than have people from say, Bangladesh.So > clearly,border > disputes are not the crucial determiningfactor. Letsface > it. The reason why people do not likehavingto > deal with Bangladeshis has much more to dowithprejudicethan > it has to do withrealpolitik. regardsShuddha >  As far as the principles outlined by you are concerned - On21-Jun-09, > at 3:09 AM, Rahul Asthanawrote:1.SoShuddha, > I believe that we are in agreement thatArtificial,ephemeral, > man-made borders arenecessary.2.NowIthink > your issue is with the selective > immigrationpoliciesof > nations.These immigration policies may bebasedonthe > following reasons a)reciprocationorbi-lateral > cooperationb)perceivedsecuritythreat > by the citizens of a > particularnationc)Diplomaticrelationsbetween > two nationsd)Borderdisputes > between two nations etc.Idonot > claim this to be a comprehensivelist. Doesthisanswer > your question? ThanksRahul---OnSun, > 6/21/09, Shuddhabrata Sengupta wrote: From:ShuddhabrataSengupta > Subject:Re:[Reader-list] > Shahidul Alam detained by IndianBorderSecurityForceTo:"RahulAsthana" > Cc:"sarailist" > ,"anupamchakravartty" > Date:Sunday,June > 21, 2009, 2:49 AMWhereexactlydoes > the continuity of the nation statebecomethediscontinuity > of the border? Let's takethecountrycurrentlyknown > as Poland. In the twentiethcenturydifferentbitsof > it have been in Russia, Germany, > LithuaniaandSlovakia.Today, > Poland is part of the Schengensystemandapart > of the European Union. Over the last > onehundredorsoyears, > Poland has had its borders redefined > invariousways.Untilthe > early nineties of the twentieth > century,itwasimpossiblefor > some one from France to come toPolandwithoutastrict > visa system, but it was relatively > easyforpeoplefromVietnam > to come to Poland as students > andguestworkers,todaythe > situation is exactly the opposite. So,howexactlyhas > the border acted in a way other thanarbitrarily.Whatmakes > Vietnamese welcome, Frenchunwelcome,andthen > vice versa across a matter of afewyears? Icansee > your point about the fact that someunitsofmanagement > of space have to exist, but why dothesehavetooperate > on the basis of exclusion? > Whatpurposesdoesexclusionserve? > What is the way in whichpriniciplesofexclusioncan > be made fair and just? Can they bemadefairandjust? Whatisit > that dictates, for instance, thatNepaliscanat > present live and work in India > withoutvisas,andthatBangladeshis > cant? Finally,andthis > is a response to Rakesh. Ihavenotheard > people whom we normally nominate as > thepoor,complainaboutthe > presence of Bangladeshis in our > city.Forinstance,Delhihas > a large population of Bangladeshimigrantworkerswho > live in squatter settlements. Theirnon-Bangladeshineighbourswho > live in squatter settlementsdonotnormally > lead the climate of opinion thatseesBangladeshiimmigrantsas > a problem. Frankly, they haveneithertheproperty, > nor the entitlements to think > oftheirBangladeshineigboursas > encroachers, primarily because theyareseenas > encroachers themselves. The only people > whomIhaveheardcomplain > about the presence of BangladeshisinDelhiarethose > with property and entitlement, to > whomtheaverageBangladeshiconstitutes > no rivalrousthreat. Thisissomewhat > paradoxical, those who complainaboutthepresence > of Bangladeshis in Delhi are thosewhoareclearlynot > in a position to be the > competitiorsforresourceswithBangladeshis. > This makes me wonder whereexactlytheantipathy > stems from. My hunch is, prejudice,whichispassed > on as an altruistic defence of the poorwithwhomthecarriers > of the prejudices have nothing > incommon.Interesting,isntit? bestShuddhaOn21-Jun-09,at > 12:54 AM, > RahulAsthanawrote:DearShuddha,Pleasereadmyreply > to Anupam.The analogy was notimplied.Ithinkthatthere > can be valid reasons to enforce man > made,ephemeral,artificial > etc. borders. That catch-allreasonaloneisnot > enough to strike down the restriction > forfreeflowofhuman > beings between national borders. Inprinciplethereis > nothing wrong or right about free flowofcapitalorhuman > beings."Artificial,ephemeral,man-made"geographicaland > administrational borders arenecessary,amongotherthings > because of the simple reason ofaccountabilityandmanageability, > as functional units foreconomicco-operationand > security.Someone representing aparticulargeographiccontinuum > is accountable andresponsibleforthe > decisions taken with respect toit.Iwantyouto > come up with some good reasons why you > thinktheboundariesanddefinition > of a nation state should notbeobserved.Letme > repeat, saying that it is > an"artificial,ephemeral,man-made > border" , so itshouldbestricken > down is not a good reason.ThanksRahul---OnSat,6/20/09, > Shuddhabrata Sengupta wrote: From:ShuddhabrataSenguptaSubject:Re:[Reader-list]Shahidul > Alam detained by > IndianBorderSecurityForceTo:"RahulAsthana"Cc:"sarailist","anupamchakravartty"Date:Saturday,June20, > 2009, 2:28 AM DearRahul, Ihavealwaysfelt > quite at home in the world,regardlessofwhetherI > was on the terrace of my OldRajendraNagarhousein > New Delhi, which once housedrefugeesfromWestPakistan > before it housed my migrantparentsandme(where > I live), or I was on hilltop inDamascus,orina > ruined factory in Warsaw, or on > theborderbetweenEastandWest > Jerusalem. I do not sense a feelingofbeing'notathome' > when I am not in my owncountry,andtherearemany > places in my own country, where Idonotfeelquiteashome > as I would have liked to, for instanceinthewide,paranoiac,expansive > and empty boulevardsofLutyensDelhi.InDelhi, > take me to Akbar Road, and I willfeelaforeigner(even > a bit of an illegal migrant),leavemeinKarolBagh, > Chitli Qabar, Mehrauli, Khan MarketorJungpura,andIwill > do just fine. Home, after all, iswheretheheartis.And > my heart is not in the LutyensBungalowZoneofNewDelhi. SoIdon'tquite > understand the analogy oflockedhomesandfenced > countries. After all, we lock ourhomes,primarilyagainstthe > possible attacks of our ownfellowcitizens.So,since > we lock our homes against ourownfellowcitizens,logically,then, > following your line ofthinking,shouldwenot > turn the whole country into one vastprison,whereeveryonewatches > out for the danger thatiseverybodyelse.Wedon'teven > have to look as far as thenextBangladeshi.Or,asmyfriends > and I had reason to say inanothercontext,'Isthe > outer wall of the detentioncentre,theinnerwall > of thecity?"regards, ShuddhaOn19-Jun-09,at9:39 > PM, Rahul Asthanawrote:DearAnupam,Yourquestionisastraw > man.I am not drawing any analogybetweennationandhome.Myquestion > to Shuddha is based > uponhisstatementaboutartificialborders > etc.ThanksRahul ShuddhabrataSenguptaTheSaraiProgrammeatCSDSRaqsMediaCollectiveshuddha at sarai.netwww.sarai.netwww.raqsmediacollective.net > > >  ShuddhabrataSenguptaTheSaraiProgramme > atCSDSRaqsMediaCollectiveshuddha at sarai.netwww.sarai.netwww.raqsmediacollective.net   >    ShuddhabrataSenguptaTheSarai > Programme atCSDSRaqsMedia > Collectiveshuddha at sarai.netwww.sarai.netwww.raqsmediacollective.net   > >    >   _________________________________________reader-list:an > open discussion list on media and > thecity.Critiques& > CollaborationsTosubscribe: > send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.netwithsubscribe > in the subject header.Tounsubscribe: > https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list Listarchive: > <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> > > > >  ShuddhabrataSenguptaThe > Sarai Programme atCSDSRaqs > Media Collectiveshuddha at sarai.netwww.sarai.netwww.raqsmediacollective.net > > > > > > Shuddhabrata > SenguptaThe Sarai Programme at > CSDSRaqs Media Collectiveshuddha at sarai.netwww.sarai.netwww.raqsmediacollective.net > > From pankhuree at hotmail.com Mon Jun 22 09:41:39 2009 From: pankhuree at hotmail.com (pankhuree dube) Date: Mon, 22 Jun 2009 04:11:39 +0000 Subject: [Reader-list] The Peculiar Case of the Golden Peacock In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Thank you, Jeebesh for posting this mini-documentary. It is unfortunate that the young student they interviewed at the end considered the protest a "natak" and a complete waste of time. The fact is that successful demonstrations and protests are nataks to some extent in order to dramatize the suffering of affected, frequently powerless multitudes. This helps social movements win attention and create a carnival-like atmosphere as they are staring down those in authority and risking their own lives. Hopefully, the rest of the class learned something from the event. Cheers, Pankhuree > From: jeebesh at sarai.net > To: reader-list at sarai.net > Date: Sun, 21 Jun 2009 10:57:37 +0530 > Subject: [Reader-list] The Peculiar Case of the Golden Peacock > > The Peculiar Case of the Golden Peacock, 10 minutes, Thursday release!!! > > Please, watch it here: > http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f0o1PhmTjEQ > > > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with subscribe in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> _________________________________________________________________ Hotmail® has ever-growing storage! Don’t worry about storage limits. http://windowslive.com/Tutorial/Hotmail/Storage?ocid=TXT_TAGLM_WL_HM_Tutorial_Storage_062009 From pawan.durani at gmail.com Mon Jun 22 10:09:09 2009 From: pawan.durani at gmail.com (Pawan Durani) Date: Mon, 22 Jun 2009 10:09:09 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] ADI SHANKARACHARYA'S VISIT TO KASHMIR Message-ID: <6b79f1a70906212139n1cdd1b51q9cfed8bcf72d136f@mail.gmail.com> ADI SHANKARACHARYA'S VISIT TO KASHMIR By Onkar Aima Onkar Aima http://koshur.org/music/oaima/index.html KASHMIR has been a sacred place a seat for learning. Swami Paramahansa Yoganranda tells us in `Autobiography of a Yogi'-"Mythological tales in Purana say that the Himalayas are abodeof Shiva-King of Yogis". So does Kalidas describes the Himalayas as"The massed laughter of Shiva". `The Hindu Tradition' mentionsthat Kashmiri was a center of Shiva Worship and according to some traditions, it was from here that the devotional Shaivism passed on to the rest of India. Right up from ancient times great scholars, sages, saints, philosophers have been visiting Kashmir to learn, to gain knowledge, to escell in the field of spiritualism, mysticism and religion. Saints and seers found Kashmir a fertile place for the spiritual Sadhana. They always gained by their visit to Kahsmir. The sincere purpose - intention - of this article, to be followed by such other articles, is to remind ourselves - to inform our younger generation - that Kashmiri Pandits have always been torch bearness in different fields. History is witness to it that we have always been GIVERS. We have led and have not been led - we have represented and have not been represented. That is our past - that is our strength - that is what we are. The object is to resolve that the glorious past of thousands of years will not be allowed to be disturbed by unscrupulous elements through subversive efforts and activities for their selfish ends. Adi Shankaracharya, a great philosopher - a saint of high order, re-established true faith in upanishads and gave Vedanta philosophy a right footing. He visited Kashmir in first quarter of 9th Century (788-820 A.D) NK Kotru in `Sivastotravali of Utpaladeva'mentions that when Buddhism was dominating in India, the great Shankaracharya launched a Vigorous Campaign in the South and popularized the cult of Bhakti, to reduce the influence of Buddhist domination. He had a sweeping tour of the country and defeated Buddhist Scholars with his powerful logic. "He checked the tidal wave of nihilism (denial of all reality)Says the writer in `The life of Swami Vivekananda'. At the sametime Kashmir was also under strong influence of Buddhism, when Vasugupta appeared on the scene and changed the whole current of religious thoughts. He propagated the `Siva Sutrar', revealed to him by`Shiva' himself, as engraved on a big stone at the foot of Mahadeva mountain. Dr Ved Kumari in `The Nilamata Purana', writes that accordingto writer of `Sankara Digvijaya' -- `Sankara visited Kashmirafter giving a final blow to Buddhism in the rest of India". However, according to NK Kotru -- "It was in Kashmir that Buddhismreceived death blow". PN Magzine, a research scholar of repute, writes in `Shankaracharya Temple and Hill' that Shankaracharyavisited Kashmir with the intention of advancing Vedantic knowledge. That time Kashmiris were culturally and spiritually much advanced and believed strongly in the greatness of both Shiva and Shakti. Shankara did not, at that time, when he visited Kashmir, believe in Shakti cult PN Magzine mentions that Shankaracharya with his party camped outside the city of Srinagar, without any boarding and lodging arrangements. Seeing the plight of visitors a virgin was sent to meet Shankara. She found the party uneasy and frustrated because of not being able to cook as no fire was made available to them. The first glimpse of Shakti was exhibited to Shankara by this girl, when Shankara expressed his inability to make a fire, in reply to girl'squestion that you are so great, can not you make fire.The girl picked up two thin wooden sticks (samidhas) into her hand, recited some mantras and rubbed the sticks and fire was produced to the surprise of Shankara. PN Magzine further adds that later a Shastrarth (religious discourse) was arranged between Shankara and a Kashmiri woman. This discourse continued for 17 days. Shankaracharya yielded before the lady in discussion and accepted the predominance of Shakti cult (greatness of Devi). According to PN Magzine, after accepting predominance of Shakti cult, Shankara wrote Saundarya Lahari, in praise of Shakti, at the top of the hill, known till then as Gopadari Hill. Pandit Gopi Krishan writer that Panchastavi--gamut of Shakti Shastra--a priceless gem -- a peerless hymn of praise addressed to Kundalini. The work has been cited as source book by several eminent scholars, but the name of the author has remained undisclosed". According to him the only other work in whole gamut of Shakti Shastra in the country, comparable to Panchastavi is Saundarya Lahari. PN Magzine says that Saundarya Lahari is acclaimed as master-piece in Sanskrit literature. After the visit of Adi Shankaracharya to Kashmir, he became staunch believer of Shakti-Shri Chakra - the symbol of Devi (Goddess) as mentioned in `Shankara Digvijay' - Life history of Shankaracharya. Thuswe know that even, a very knowledge philosopher, a Saint of greater order- Adi Shankaracharya - gained further depth in spritualism and mysticism in Kashmir.Kashmiri Pandit - great `Mehman Nawaz' - highly appreciativeof knowledge (which has at time sproved undoing for them), awarded a degree of the Sharda Peetha, the highest honour conferred on any dignitary of knowledge when Shankaracharya visited Sharda, a famous temple, Shrine of Goddess Saraswati and a famous university of learning. This temple is situated about 100 kilometers to the South West of Srinagar, which is now under occupation of Pakistan. Kashmiri Pandits were not satisfied by this award to Shankaracharya and desired to honour him further more and dedicated the hill and temple where he wrote Sundarya Lahari to the memory of his visit to Kashmir. The hill, till that time known as Gopadri hill and temple are both, thereafter, known as Shankaracharya hill and Shankaracharya temple.`Kashur Encyclopadia' published by J&K Academy records -"Behind Shiv Lingam at Gopadri (Shankaracharya temple) is Statue of Adi Shankaracharya, which has been installed in 1961, by Shankaracharya of Dwarka Peeth, Pilgrimage to this temple is must be any scholar, philosopher, mystic, saint or seer who visits Kashmir.While writing this I am reminded of a Kashmiri poet, who has said:- "Yus chaman paamaal kari tas laar kar Saz yath dil vaayi Suy raazaah vanavYee pagaah asi peyi karun tee azy karavAschi kwochhi manz prazli pagahuk aaftab Azchi berang zindagaani kar hissab". From pawan.durani at gmail.com Mon Jun 22 10:10:13 2009 From: pawan.durani at gmail.com (Pawan Durani) Date: Mon, 22 Jun 2009 10:10:13 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Swami Vivekananda in Kashmir Message-ID: <6b79f1a70906212140u40774d45le4b4eae01637c4a3@mail.gmail.com> Source: Vitasta http://vitasta.org/2002/1.1.html Swami Vivekananda in Kashmir Compiled by Swami Bodhasarananda, Kolkata Swami Vivekananda (Parliament of World's Religions', Chicago, U.S.A., Photograph) This article has been compiled from authentic life of Swami Vivekananda. It gives a day to day record of his stay in Kashmir more than one hundred years ago. He visited many shrines. From the visions and experiences he had, we find these shrines surcharged with God's presence. Only we have to open our hearts to allow the God's grace flow inside us. Swami Vivekananda visited Srinagar twice. The first time he reached Srinagar was on 10th September 1897. At Srinagar he was the guest of Justice Rishibar Mukhopadhyaya. On the third day after his arrival he paid an informal visit to the place of the Maharaja. Since the Maharaja was then at Jammu, his brother Raja Rama Singh received the Swami with marked cordiality and honour, seating him on a chair, and himself sitting with officials on the floor. The Raja was deeply impressed by Swamiji's thoughts on religion and his eagerness to improve the condition of the poor. He voiced his desire to help the Swami in carrying out his plan of work. Early in the first week of October the Swami was busy filling many engagements, private and public, and visiting the places of historic interest with which Kashmir abounds. Sadhus, Pandits, students, officials of high rank went to meet him. The Swami left Srinagar for Baramulla and reached Murree on October 8 and from there to Rawalpindi on October 16, 1897. The second time also Swami Vivekananda had to go to Srinagar via Rawalpindi, Murree and Baramulla. The distance had to be covered partly by tonga and partly by boat. Sister Nivedita, Mrs. Ole Bull and Miss MacLeod accompanied him. Swami Vivekananda had great fascination for Lord Shiva during his childhood. As he grew older his love for Shiva, the Lord of monks and yogis deepened. And now in the Himalayas, the abode of the Great God, the thought of Him was uppermost in the Swami's mind. To his disciples he spoke of the Puranic conception of the oneness of Shiva and His consort, Uma, under the guise of half-man and half-woman. It represented the junction of two great streams of thought, Monasticism and Mother-worship; or it represented the vision of truth where renunciation through philosophy and supreme love become inseparable. And "he understood, he said, for the first time the meaning of the nature-story that made the Ganga fall on the head of the Great God, and wander in and out amongst His matted locks, before she found an outlet on the plains below. He had searched long, he said, for the words that the rivers and waterfalls uttered, among the mountains, before he had realized that it was the eternal cry `Vyom! Vyom! Hara!' `Yes!' he said of Shiva one day, `He is the Great God, calm, beautiful and silent; and I am His great worshipper'." While coming from Baramulla when he entered further into Kashmir, the Swami's mind was filled with the legends of the Kashmiris. The Vale of Kashmir had once been a lake; and it is related that at this point where the Swami was entering the Vale, the Divine Boar pierced the mountains with his tusks, and let the Jhelum go through. The period from June 22 to July 15, 1898 was spent in houseboats (dungas) on the Jhelum, in and about Srinagar. He told his Western disciples many things about Kashmir, for instance, the different religious periods through which Kashmir had passed, with special attention given to the period under Kanishka; the morality of Buddhism and the religious imperialism of Ashoka; and again the history of Shiva-worship. On June 26, the Swami suddenly felt a longing to leave the party and go to a quiet place. But not knowing that this was his intention, the party followed him to Kshir Bhavani. It was said to be the first time that Christian or Muslim had set foot there. The irony of the occasion was that the Muslim boatman would not allow the Swami and his Christian disciples to land with shoes on, "so thoroughly Hinduistic," says Nivedita, "is the Mohammedanism of Kashmir with its forty Rishis, and pilgrimages made fasting, to their (i.e. the Hindus') shrines." Among the local excursions that the Swami made with his disciples was that on July 29 to the small, massively built Shiva temple that stands atop the Shankaracharya Hill. This hill is also known as Takt-i-Suleiman, and rises a thousand feet above the surrounding terrain. The famous floating gardens can be seen below, for miles around. The beauty and extensive sweep of the scene drew from the Swami the exclamation : "Look, what genius the Hindu shows in placing his temples! He always chooses a grand scenic effect! See, the Takt commands the whole of Kashmir. The rock of Hari Parvat rises red out of blue water, like a lion couchant, crowned. And the temple of Martand has the valley at its feet!" On July 4, the day of American Independence, he wrote a poem entitled "To the Fourth of July" which can be interpreted as a passionate utterance of his own longing for the Final Freedom in the Infinite. Time was to prove that it had been penned in a prophetic vein; for, four years later, on that very day, his shackles of work broken, he entered in "springing joy" into the Final Freedom, concerning which he had written. A desire for quiet and peace seemed to grow more and more upon Swami Vivekananda in these days. On July 10 he left alone for a pilgrimage to Amarnath ji by way of Sonamarg. On the 15th he returned, having found that route impracticable because the summer heat had melted some of the glaciers. On July 19 the whole party started for Anantnag by boat. On the first afternoon they sought out and found the quaint old Temple of Pandrethan (derived from Puran-adhishthana meaning "old capital"), sunken in a scum-covered pond within a wood, by the side of the Jhelum. This is four and a half miles to the southeast of Srinagar. The temple is a small cell, with four doorways opening to the cardinal points. He drew their attention to the interior decorations, with their sun-medallion, and to the fine sculpture, in low relief, of male and female figures intertwined with serpants. Among the outside sculptures is a fine one of the Buddha standing with hands uplifted. And there is a much-defaced frieze, showing a seated woman and a tree. This evidently represents Maya Devi, the Buddha's mother. The temple is built of grey lime-stone, and dated from the tenth century A.D. "To the Swami," writes Sister Nivedita, "the place was delightfully suggestive," and she adds : Kashmir, 1897. Sitting on chairs, left to right: Swamis Sadananda, Vivekananda, Niranjanananda, and Dhirananda. Kashmir, 1898. Left to right : Jesophine McLeod, Mrs. Ole Bull, Vivekananda, and Sister Nivedita. On a houseboat in Kashmir, 1898. Left to right : Jesophine MacLeod, Vivekananda, Mrs. Ole Bull, and Sister Nivedita. "It was a direct memorial of Buddhism, representing one of the four religious periods into which he had already divided the history of Kashmir : 1) Tree and snake worship, from which dated all the names of the springs ending in Nag, as Veernag and so on; 2) Buddhism; 3) Hinduism in the form of sun-worship; and 4) Mohammedanism. Sculpture he told us, was the characteristic art of Buddhism. The figures with the serpants reffered to pre-Buddhism." Moving up the river, the party came next day (July 20) to the ruins of the two great temples of Avantipur; legend of which relates to Pandava times. Its sculptures drew his admiration. In his view the temples were more than two thousand years old. Swamiji said in the course of conversation : "In order to strengthen the national life, we must reinforce the current of that life itself along the line of its own culture of ideals. For instance, Budha preached renunciation, and India heard. Yet within a thousand years, she had reached her highest point of national prosperity. The national life in India has renunciation as its source. Its highest ideals are service and Mukti." On July 21 when the party landed at the temple of Bijbehara, then already thronged with Amarnath pilgrims, he was able to join them for a little while. After visiting the temple, they left for Anantnag which was reached on the afternoon of July 22. He sat on the grass of an apple orchard and he started talking about the rarest of rare personal experiences. Picking up two pebbles, he said, "Whenever death approaches me, all weakness vanishes. I have neither fear, nor doubt, nor thought of the external. I simply busy myself making ready to die. I am as hard as that" — and the stones struck one another in his hand — "for I have touched the feet of God!" On the 23rd morning the party went to see the ruins of Martand. "It had been a wonderful old building — evidently more abbey than temple — in a wonderful position," writes Nivedita, "and its great interest lay in the obvious agglomeration of styles and periods in which it had grown up." On July 25 the party went on to Achabal and in the afternoon came back to Anantnag. It was at Achabal that the Swami announced his intention of going to Amarnath with the two or three thousand pilgrims then en route to that shrine. As a special privilege, Sister Nivedita was allowed to join him as a pilgrim. It was settled that his other Western disciples would accompany the party as far as Pahalgam and there wait for the Swami's return. On July 27 they halted for a night at Bhavan (Martand, also called Matan) and reached Pahalgam on July 28. Throughout the rest of the journey Swami Vivekananda would bathe in the holy waters, offer flowers, fruits and sweets to the object of worship before breaking his fast, make obeisance by prostrating himself on the ground, tell his beads, make ritual circumambulation, and the rest. At every halt, the Swami's tent was besieged by scores of monks seeking knowledge from him. Many of them could not understand his broad and liberal views on religious matters. The Muslim Tehsildar, the state official in charge of the pilgrimage, and his subordinates, were so attracted to the Swami that they attended his talks daily and afterwards entreated him to initiate them. On July 30 the Swami left for Chandanwari. Next day a steep climb towards Pishu top followed and then a long walk on the narrow path that twisted round the mountain-side. At last they camped (July 31) at Wavjan at a height of 12,500 ft. Next day (August 1), after crossing the Mahagunus Top, a pass at 14,500 ft., they reached Panchtarani, the "place of five streams". On August 2, the day of Amarnath itself, there was first a steep climb followed by a descent, where a false step would have meant death. They walked across a glacier till they reached a flowing stream. When Swami Vivekananda reached the cave, his whole frame was shaking with emotion. The cave itself, says Nivedita, was "large enough to hold a cathedral, and the great ice-Shiva in a niche of depressed shadow, seemed as if throned on its own base." His body covered with ashes, his face aflame with devotion to Shiva, the Swami entered the shrine itself, nude except for a loin-cloth, and prostrated in adoration before the Lord. A song of praise from a hundred throats resounded in the cave, and the shining purity of the great ice-linga over-powered him. He almost swooned with emotion. A profound mystical experience came to him, of which he never spoke, beyond saying that Shiva Himself had appeared before him, and that he (the Swami) had been granted the grace of Amarnath, the Lord of Immortality, namely not to die until he himself should choose to do so. Shri Ramkrishna had prophesied regarding this disciple of his : "When he realizes who and what he is, he will no longer remain in the body!" Never had the Swami, in visiting a holy place, felt such spiritual exaltation. Afterwards he said to his European disciple, "The image was the Lord Himself. It was all worship there. I never have been to anything so beautiful, so inspiring!" Later on, in the circle of his brother disciples and his own disciples, he said dreamily : "I can well imagine how this cave was first discovered. A party of shepherds, one summer day, must have lost their flocks and wandered in here in search of them. What must have been their feeling as they found themselves unexpectedly before this unmelting ice-Linga, white like camphor, with the vault itself dripping offerings of water over it for centuries, unseen of mortal eyes! Then when they came home, they whispered to the other shepherds in the valleys how they had suddenly come upon Mahadeva!" Be that as it may, for the Swami this was truly so : he entered the cave and came face to face with the Lord! On the journey back the Swami and party returned to Anantnag, and from there by boat to Srinagar which they reached on August 8. In Kashmir the Swami and his party were treated with great respect by the Maharaja; and during his stay various high officials visited the Swami's houseboat to receive religious instruction and converse with him on general topics. The Swami had come at the invitation of the Maharaja, to choose a piece of land for the establishment of a monastery and a Sanskrit college. It was a disappointment to the Swami when, about the middle of September, he heard that official discussion of the site that he had chosen, had been twice vetoed by the British Resident. Following the pilgrimage to Amarnath, the Swami's devotion became concentrated on the Mother. It was touching to see him worship, as Uma, the four-year old daughter of his Muslim boatman. He once told his disciples, during these days, that "wherever he turned, he was conscious of the Presence of the Mother, as if she were a person in the room." His meditation on Kali became intense, and one day he had a vision of Her, the mighty Destructress lurking behind the veil of life, the terrible one, hidden by the dust of the living who pass by, all the appearances raised by their feet. In a fever he groped in the dark for pencil and paper and wrote his famous poem "Kali the Mother"; then he dropped to the floor, losing consciousness, while his soul soared into Bhava-samadhi. On September 30, the Swami abruptly went to Kshir Bhavani, leaving strict instructions that no one was to follow him. It was not until October 6 that he returned. Before this famous shrine of the Mother he daily performed Homa (Havan), and worshipped Her with offerings of Kheer (thickened milk) made from one maund of milk, rice, and almonds. He told his beads like any humble pilgrim. Every morning he worshipped a Brahmin Pandit's little daughter as Uma Kumari, the Divine Virgin. He practised severe austerities. He became like a child before the Divine Mother. All thought of Leader, Worker, or Teacher was gone. He was now only the monk, in all the nakedness of pure Sannyasa. One day at Kshir Bhavani he had been pondering over the ruination and desecration of the temple by the Muslim invaders. Distressed at heart, he thought : "How could the people have permitted such sacrilege without offering strenuous resistance! If I had been here then, I would never have allowed such a thing. I would have laid down my life to protect the Mother." Thereupon he heard the voice of the Goddess saying : "What if unbelievers should enter My temple and defile My image? What is that to you? Do you protect Me, or do I protect you?" Referring to this experience after his return, he said to his disciples : "All my patriotism is gone. Everything is gone. Now it is only Mother! Mother! I have been very wrong. I am only a little child." Another day, in course of his worship, the thought flashed through the Swami's mind that he should try to build a new temple in the place of a present dilapidated one, just as he had built a monastery and temple at Belur to Shri Ramkrishna. He even thought of trying to raise funds from his wealthy American disciples and friends. At once the Mother said to him : "My child! If I so wish I can have innumerable temples and monastic centres. I can even this moment raise a seven-storied golden temple on this very spot." "Since I heard that divine voice," the Swami later said, "I have ceased making any more plans. Let these things be as Mother wishes." Thus we see during his stay in Kashmir, Swami Vivekananda was in a different world altogether. Visions of Shri Amarnath, Mother Kali and Kshir Bhavani remained always with him. Later at Belur Math he said : "Since visiting Amarnath, I feel as though Shiva were sitting on my head for twenty-four hours a day and will not come down." The party left Kashmir on October 11 and came down to Lahore. Swamiji reached Belur Math on October 18, 1898. ________________________________ The author is the manager of Advaita Ashrama, the publication department of the Ramakrishna Math & Mission, Belur Math, Kolkata. From sonia.jabbar at gmail.com Mon Jun 22 10:10:21 2009 From: sonia.jabbar at gmail.com (S. Jabbar) Date: Mon, 22 Jun 2009 10:10:21 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Shahidul Alam detained by Indian Border Security Force In-Reply-To: <1BB0B414-3DBA-4813-8EB2-7FD286B04D31@sarai.net> Message-ID: My two cent bit to this discussion: wars and armies (standing/notwithstanding) have existed even before the existence of nations and nation-states. What does that tell us about human beings? Remove nations and wars will disappear? You underestimate our inventiveness! > From: Shuddhabrata Sengupta > Date: Mon, 22 Jun 2009 04:09:44 +0530 > To: Rahul Asthana > Cc: sarai list > Subject: Re: [Reader-list] Shahidul Alam detained by Indian Border Security > Force > > Dear Rahul, This is not a luddite argument. As far as I know, the internet, > electricity and fire have not spawned a form of politics that led to two > world wars in the twentieth century and numerous other forms of armed > conflicts, and the obscenity of standing armies. Nations and nationalism > have. And that is why I have a position against nationalism that cannot be > automatically extended to the internet or to electricity. The two kinds of > things have nothing in common other than the fact that they are made by > human beings. We are often told that nation states are indispensable. We know > that they are historically contingent, and as with all historically > contingent matters, we can take a call as to whether or not they are worth > having around. In other words, we can see for ourselves that they are not > necessary for human beings to be what they are. Of course, we can just as > well take a call about other human made things, like the ways in which we > use electricity and the internet. And I am sure that there are people who > wish that the internet was not around. But I am not one of them, and just > because I have a stance against nationalism does not mean that I have a > stance against all things that have arisen as a result of human > effort. Nationalism is as much of a choice as is the internet and all other > things shaped by human beings. But, there is nothing that dictates that > choosing one must necessarily involve choosing the other. I hope I have made > myself clear. best Shdudha On 22-Jun-09, at 12:55 AM, Rahul Asthana > wrote: > > Dear Shuddha, > 1. "I merely talked about the arbitrariness of > national borders to > demonstrate that they were not 'natural' and > 'inherent' constructs, > and to show that just as human beings have done > without them for > hundreds of thousands of years in the past, so too, they > may well > do without them in the future. " > > This is essentially a > Luddite argument-neither here nor there. You > can make the same argument > about electricity , internet, fire etc. > > 2."I think people without > entitlements and >> rights, people whose labour is alienated from them, > people >> discriminated against for whatever reason to do with their >> birth > or their choices have reason to construct solidarities >> against those who > act against them and with those who share >> their circumstances." > "The > claims of patriotism and nationalism (which >> seek to put the exploited and > the exploiters in the same >> camp) in such instances act against the > actuality of the >> solidarity of the oppressed." > ` > According to you, the > benefit of having an opportunity to forge a > pan national solidarity > against the exploiters the exploited > offsets the benefits accruing from a > nation like a constitution > providing fundamental rights, a government that > works to enforce > the rule of law, security against imperialist > attacks,public > spending etc.A similar situation existed in the middle ages > in some > parts of the world when ragtag militias controlled small portions > > of land and kept fighting with each other for larger shares of > land, > produce, riches etc.How will your proposed nation less model > of the world > address the problems of law and order? > > 3.>and additionally, because I > think that the >> nation is either too large, or too small a unit to > address >> the problems facing human beings today. Too small to address >> > global ecological devastation, too large to address the >> municipal issues of > sanitation and transport or the >> allocation of resources like water for > agriculture at a >> local level. > A problem like global ecological > devastation certainly needs more > cooperation between nations. As for local > problems > decentralization is not antithetical to the definition of a > > nation.Can you explain how your alternative model will be more > conducive > to solving problems like ecological devastation? > > 4.>Having said that, If > you could have nations without standing > armies, I >would be more > favorably inclined towards them, > > Armies have not been introduced by > nations.They have existed long > before them.The idea of an army less world > will not fly too far in > a real world scenario.Its only good for "What if" > kind of articles. > > 5. "As of now, it seems to me that > enforcing the idea > of a nation will always mean that > somebody's nation will always be somebody > else's > violation." > The idea of a nation is dynamic. Its not married to > its origin or > definition.It always undergoes constant change, > discontinuities, > incorporations, and the `turf` never remains the same.The > solution > is not to undo the idea of the nation completely , but activism > > against your pet cause.Please remember, as long as greed and > inequity > of power exists in this world there would always be > violations. > In any > case,it would be easier to make this comparison if you > present some > concrete ideas about your nation less model of the world. > > Thanks > > Rahul > > > --- On Sun, 6/21/09, Shuddhabrata Sengupta > wrote: > >> From: Shuddhabrata Sengupta >> Subject: Re: > [Reader-list] Shahidul Alam detained by Indian Border >> Security Force >> > To: "Rahul Asthana" >> Cc: "sarai list" > >> Date: Sunday, June 21, 2009, 4:19 AM >> >> Dear > Rahul, >> You have nothing against Bangladeshis, (and I >> never said you did, > I was responding to someone else, who >> was making a point about the > 'competing' poverties >> of Bangladeshis and Indians as a reason to erect > walls >> between them). I have nothing against >> arbitrariness. >> I merely > talked about the arbitrariness of >> national borders to demonstrate that they > were not >> 'natural' and 'inherent' constructs, and to >> show that just as > human beings have done without them for >> hundreds of thousands of years in > the past, so too, they may >> well do without them in the future. >> I am > against nations and boundaries, not because >> they are arbitrary, but because > they are, in my view, as >> they stand, inimical to necessary solidarities, at > the >> basic, human level. I think people without entitlements and >> rights, > people whose labour is alienated from them, people >> discriminated against > for whatever reason to do with their >> birth or their choices have reason to > construct solidarities >> against those who act against them and with those > who share >> their circumstances. >> Typically, these solidarities cut across > the >> borders that divide nations. Fishermen who straddle a >> coastline > shared by two nations have much to gain by acting >> together against large > trawling operations that may >> originate in their respective countries. In > this case, the >> interests of lets say, Indian and Bangladeshi fishermen >> > vis-a-vis large commercial trawling operations conducted by >> vested > interests in India and Bangladesh are ranged >> together, and against those > who are more powerful in their >> own countries. >> The claims of patriotism > and nationalism (which >> seek to put the exploited and the exploiters in the > same >> camp) in such instances act against the actuality of the >> solidarity > of the oppressed. This is the reason why I am >> against nations, and > additionally, because I think that the >> nation is either too large, or too > small a unit to address >> the problems facing human beings today. Too small > to address >> global ecological devastation, too large to address the >> > municipal issues of sanitation and transport or the >> allocation of resources > like water for agriculture at a >> local level. My reasons for opposing > nations have very >> little to do with any 'rosy hued' ideals of >> universal > brotherhood, and much more to do with the >> practical and day to day problems > of existence in the >> twentieth century, which are constantly deferred by > the >> endless wasted symbolic baggage of nations, national >> borders, large > bloated militaries and pointless wars. These >> are the illusions I wish we > could be rid >> of. >> Having said that, If you could have >> nations without > standing armies, I would be more favorably >> inclined towards them, as I am > to many forms of association >> that range from football clubs to esperanto > societies, even >> if I have no active interest in them. Then the rituals > of >> nationalism would for me be as dull and uninteresting (and >> just as > harmless) as the protocols of the Rotary Club. I >> would have nothing against > it, I would not be enthusiastic >> for it, but at least it would not burden my > life and the >> life of our communities with the things I think that we can >> > all no longer afford. >> Finally, to answer your other question, frankly, >> I > do not know how a nation can be 'defined'. For >> every principle, no matter > how it is expressed, be it in >> singular or plural registers, be they > inguistic, >> cultural, ethnic, religious - there seem to be exceptions. >> > So, no one definition of nations will do. Since no one >> definition of nation > is operative, we have to accept that >> nations cannot be constructed in a > manner that can be ever >> universally acceptable. As of now, it seems to me > that >> enforcing the idea of a nation will always mean that >> somebody's > nation will always be somebody else's >> violation. >> regards >> > Shuddha >> >> >> On 21-Jun-09, at 3:55 AM, Rahul Asthana >> wrote: >> >> > P.S. >> Would it be logical to assume that you would not have a >> problem > with immigration restrictions if they were based on >> realpolitik? >> --- >> > On Sun, 6/21/09, Rahul Asthana >> wrote: >> From: >> > Rahul Asthana Subject: >> Re: [Reader-list] Shahidul > Alam detained by Indian Border >> Security ForceTo: >> "Shuddhabrata Sengupta" > Cc: >> "sarai list" Date: >> Sunday, > June 21, 2009, 3:51 AM >> 1. >> Please clarify how the process of definition > of a >> nationis >> linked with your argument of discarding >> > "artificial,ephemeral, >> man-made borders".Are >> you saying that > "artificial, ephemeral, >> man-madeborders" >> should be discarded because > they are arbitrary? >> 2. >> I did not imply by my earlier email that every >> > principleof >> immigration can be implied to every immigration >> > relationbetween >> two nations.So you do not need to disprove that bygiving >> > counterexamples. >> 3. >> "Lets face it. The reason why people do not like >> > havingto >> deal with Bangladeshis has much more to do >> with prejudice >> > than it has to do with realpolitik." I >> personally have no problem with > Bangladeshis.I >> havenothing >> more to add on this particular point. >> > ThanksRahul >> >> >> >> >> >> >> --- >> On Sun, 6/21/09, Shuddhabrata Sengupta > wrote: >> From: >> Shuddhabrata Sengupta > Subject: >> Re: [Reader-list] Shahidul Alam detained by >> > Indian >> Border Security Force To: >> "Rahul Asthana" > Cc: >> "sarai list" , >> > "anupam >> chakravartty" >> Date: >> Sunday, June 21, > 2009, 3:22 AM >> No, >> I do not think we are in agreement at all. The >> > example >> of >> Poland which I gave demonstrates how arbitrary > theprinciples >> of exclusion are and have been historically. >> There >> is > nothing 'necessary' about the decisionstaken >> at the Polish border. If these > decisions can bereversed >> one way or another, so easily, it proves that >> > there >> is >> nothing inherently necessary to them at all. They >> are >> > contingent. >> The whole idea of the nation state is >> contingent >> on >> > the historical circumstances that have developed >> since >> the >> treaty of > Westphalia outlined the beginnings of >> the >> modern >> state system. Being > contingent, they are >> subject >> to fundamental >> change. Today, at a time > when nothing from >> the >> fluctuations >> of the financial system to the > question >> of >> climate >> change can be addressed at national levels, I >> > find >> it >> odd that some of us can still cling on to the >> fetish >> of > borders >> and nation states as if they were'necessary'. I >> find that > clinging 'idealistic'. itseems >> to fly in the face of the actual > objective >> structural >> realities >> of the contemporary world. As >> for > your conditions, each one of them can beunpicked. There >> are greater if not > more 'securitythreats' >> from the citizens of a given nation state > toitself, >> than there are from the citizens of other >> states. >> If > that >> is so, how far inwards should the protocols of >> the >> 'border' >> > and its exclusionary principles bedrawn? Reciprocity >> is not necessarily the > basis forinternational >> relations, as demonstrated by the simple >> case >> > of >> the utterly un-reciprocal relationships that obtain >> at >> the >> US > Mexico border. Diplomatic >> relationships have barely anything todo >> with > the situation at border controls. India has >> full >> fledged >> diplomatic > relationships with Pakistan andBangladesh, >> and yet, this does not influence > thehumiliations >> that Indians, Pakistanis and Bangladeshis >> have >> to >> > face in the hands of each other's borderauthorities. India >> has border > disputes with China, Pakistanand >> with Bangladesh, and yet, refugees from > Chinesecontrolled >> TIbet have had an easier time getting into >> and >> > staying >> in India than have people from say, Bangladesh. >> So clearly, >> > border disputes are not the crucial determining >> factor. Lets >> face it. > The reason why people do not likehaving >> to deal with Bangladeshis has much > more to do >> with >> prejudice >> than it has to do withrealpolitik. > regardsShuddha >> >> As far as the principles outlined by you are concerned > - >> On >> 21-Jun-09, at 3:09 AM, Rahul Asthanawrote: >> 1.So >> Shuddha, I > believe that we are in agreement thatArtificial, >> ephemeral, man-made > borders arenecessary.2.NowI >> think your issue is with the selective > immigrationpolicies >> of nations.These immigration policies may be >> > based >> on >> the following reasons a)reciprocationor >> bi-lateral > cooperationb)perceivedsecurity >> threat by the citizens of a > particularnationc)Diplomaticrelations >> between two nationsd)Border >> > disputes between two nations etc.Ido >> not claim this to be a > comprehensive >> list. Doesthis >> answer your question? ThanksRahul---On >> > Sun, 6/21/09, Shuddhabrata Sengupta wrote: >> > From:Shuddhabrata >> Sengupta Subject:Re: >> [Reader-list] > Shahidul Alam detained by Indian >> Border >> Security >> ForceTo:"Rahul >> > Asthana" Cc:"sarai >> list" > ,"anupam >> chakravartty" > Date:Sunday, >> June 21, 2009, 2:49 AMWhereexactly >> does > the continuity of the nation statebecomethe >> discontinuity of the border? > Let's takethecountrycurrently >> known as Poland. In the > twentiethcenturydifferentbits >> of it have been in Russia, Germany, > LithuaniaandSlovakia. >> Today, Poland is part of the Schengensystemanda >> > part of the European Union. Over the last onehundredorso >> years, Poland has > had its borders redefined invariousways.Until >> the early nineties of the > twentieth century,itwasimpossible >> for some one from France to come > toPolandwithouta >> strict visa system, but it was relatively > easyforpeoplefrom >> Vietnam to come to Poland as students > andguestworkers,today >> the situation is exactly the opposite. > So,howexactly >> has the border acted in a way other thanarbitrarily. >> > What >> makes Vietnamese welcome, Frenchunwelcome,and >> then vice versa > across a matter of a >> fewyears? Ican >> see your point about the fact that > someunitsof >> management of space have to exist, but why dothesehaveto >> > operate on the basis of exclusion? Whatpurposesdoesexclusion >> serve? What is > the way in whichpriniciplesofexclusion >> can be made fair and just? Can they > bemadefairand >> just? Whatis >> it that dictates, for instance, > thatNepaliscan >> at present live and work in India withoutvisas,andthat >> > Bangladeshis cant? Finally,and >> this is a response to Rakesh. Ihavenot >> > heard people whom we normally nominate as thepoor,complainabout >> the > presence of Bangladeshis in our city.Forinstance,Delhi >> has a large > population of Bangladeshimigrantworkers >> who live in squatter settlements. > Theirnon-Bangladeshi >> neighbours >> who live in squatter settlementsdonot >> > normally lead the climate of opinion that >> seesBangladeshi >> immigrants >> > as a problem. Frankly, they haveneitherthe >> property, nor the entitlements > to think oftheirBangladeshineigbours >> as encroachers, primarily because > theyareseen >> as encroachers themselves. The only people whomIhaveheard >> > complain about the presence of BangladeshisinDelhiare >> those with property > and entitlement, to whomtheaverageBangladeshi >> constitutes no > rivalrousthreat. Thisis >> somewhat paradoxical, those who complainaboutthe >> > presence of Bangladeshis in Delhi are thosewhoareclearly >> not in a position > to be the competitiorsforresourceswith >> Bangladeshis. This makes me wonder > whereexactlythe >> antipathy stems from. My hunch is, prejudice,which >> is >> > passed on as an altruistic defence of the poorwithwhomthe >> carriers of the > prejudices have nothing incommon.Interesting,isnt >> it? > bestShuddhaOn21-Jun-09, >> at 12:54 AM, > RahulAsthanawrote:DearShuddha,Pleasereadmy >> reply to Anupam.The analogy was > notimplied.Ithinkthat >> there can be valid reasons to enforce man > made,ephemeral, >> artificial etc. borders. That catch-all >> reasonaloneis >> > not enough to strike down the restriction forfreeflowof >> human beings > between national borders. Inprinciple >> there >> is nothing wrong or right > about free flow >> ofcapital >> or >> human beings."Artificial, >> > ephemeral,man-made"geographical >> and administrational borders > arenecessary,among >> other >> things because of the simple reason > ofaccountability >> and >> manageability, as functional units > foreconomicco-operation >> and security.Someone representing aparticular >> > geographic >> continuum is accountable andresponsiblefor >> the decisions > taken with respect toit.Iwantyou >> to come up with some good reasons why you > thinktheboundariesand >> definition of a nation state should not >> > beobserved. >> Let >> me repeat, saying that it is an"artificial,ephemeral, >> > man-made border" , so itshouldbe >> stricken down is not a good > reason.ThanksRahul---OnSat, >> 6/20/09, Shuddhabrata Sengupta > wrote: >> From:ShuddhabrataSengupta >> > Subject:Re:[Reader-list] >> Shahidul Alam detained by > IndianBorderSecurityForceTo:"RahulAsthana" >> > Cc:"sarailist" >> > ,"anupamchakravartty" >> > Date:Saturday,June >> 20, 2009, 2:28 AM DearRahul, > Ihavealways >> felt quite at home in the world,regardlessofwhether >> I was on > the terrace of my OldRajendraNagarhouse >> in New Delhi, which once > housedrefugeesfromWest >> Pakistan before it housed my migrantparentsandme >> > (where I live), or I was on hilltop inDamascus,orin >> a ruined factory in > Warsaw, or on theborderbetweenEastand >> West Jerusalem. I do not sense a > feelingofbeing'not >> at >> home' when I am not in my > owncountry,andthereare >> many places in my own country, where I >> > donotfeelquite >> as >> home as I would have liked to, for > instanceinthewide, >> paranoiac, >> expansive and empty > boulevardsofLutyensDelhi.In >> Delhi, take me to Akbar Road, and I > willfeelaforeigner >> (even a bit of an illegal migrant),leavemein >> Karol >> > Bagh, Chitli Qabar, Mehrauli, Khan MarketorJungpura,and >> I >> will do just > fine. Home, after all, is >> wheretheheart >> is. >> And my heart is not in > the LutyensBungalowZoneofNew >> Delhi. SoIdon't >> quite understand the > analogy oflockedhomesand >> fenced countries. After all, we lock > ourhomes,primarily >> against >> the possible attacks of our > ownfellowcitizens. >> So, >> since we lock our homes against > ourownfellowcitizens, >> logically, >> then, following your line > ofthinking,should >> we >> not turn the whole country into one > vastprison,where >> everyone >> watches out for the danger > thatiseverybodyelse.Wedon't >> even have to look as far as > thenextBangladeshi.Or,as >> my >> friends and I had reason to say > inanothercontext,'Is >> the outer wall of the detentioncentre,theinner >> wall > of the >> city?"regards, ShuddhaOn19-Jun-09,at >> 9:39 PM, Rahul > Asthanawrote:DearAnupam,Yourquestionis >> a >> straw man.I am not drawing any > analogybetweennationand >> home.My >> question to Shuddha is based > uponhisstatementaboutartificial >> borders etc.ThanksRahul > ShuddhabrataSenguptaTheSarai >> Programme >> > atCSDSRaqsMediaCollectiveshuddha at sarai.netwww.sarai.netwww.raqsmediac >> > ollective.net >> >> >> >> ShuddhabrataSenguptaTheSarai >> Programme > atCSDSRaqsMedia >> > Collectiveshuddha at sarai.netwww.sarai.netwww.raqsmediacollective.net >> >> >> > > > ShuddhabrataSenguptaThe >> Sarai Programme atCSDSRaqs >> Media >> > Collectiveshuddha at sarai.netwww.sarai.netwww.raqsmediacollective.net >> >> >> > > > _________________________________________reader-list: >> an open > discussion list on media and thecity.Critiques >> & CollaborationsTo >> > subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.netwith >> subscribe in > the subject header.To >> unsubscribe: > https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list List >> archive: > <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> >> >> >> >> >> > Shuddhabrata >> SenguptaThe Sarai Programme at >> CSDSRaqs Media >> > Collectiveshuddha at sarai.netwww.sarai.netwww.raqsmediacollective.net >> >> > > > > Shuddhabrata Sengupta The Sarai Programme at CSDS Raqs Media > Collective shuddha at sarai.net www.sarai.net www.raqsmediacollective.net _____ > ____________________________________ reader-list: an open discussion list on > media and the city. Critiques & Collaborations To subscribe: send an email to > reader-list-request at sarai.net with subscribe in the subject header. To > unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list List > archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> From pawan.durani at gmail.com Mon Jun 22 10:11:59 2009 From: pawan.durani at gmail.com (Pawan Durani) Date: Mon, 22 Jun 2009 10:11:59 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Gurunatha-Paramarsa (of Madhuraja) Message-ID: <6b79f1a70906212141j4769d40i2c206629e176483a@mail.gmail.com> Gurunatha-Paramarsa (of Madhuraja) By Prof. M.L.Koul Acharya Abhinavagupta, the great Kashmiri Shaivite philosopher of Tenth Century A.D. was a multi-faceted genius. He made extraordinary contributions to the domain of philosophy and aesthetics. His two commentaries on Isvarpratyabijjna of Utpaldeva are vital to the understanding of Kashmir Shaiva monism, centering round Shiva as an absolute. The Acarya perfected the theory and praxis of Trika as a part of Kashmir Shaiva monism. Many a scholar has nomenclatured Shaiva monism as Trika Philosophy in recognition of his stature as an expositor of Trika. Acarya's many works have been lost as a result of intolerant Vandalism and ravages of time. We still have his numerous works, commentaries and devotional hymns, which establish him as an incomparable Shaiva master. Abhinavagupta's fame, in his own life time, had spread beyond the purlieux of Kashmir. Many outstanding students and practitioners of Shaivism flocked to Kashmir to learn from him. Madhuraja, the great practitioner of Khandana (:smashing false wisdom) and mandana (:establishing truth), in his 74th year came to Kashmir to become Acaryas disciple. Madhuraja, who belonged to Madhura (Modern Madurai, Tamil Nadu), was a yogi of the Pasupata Sampradaya. In his quest for knowledge, he moved from place to place, carrying no personal belongings except a staff (Dandah), a water vessel (Kamanduluh), an earthen vessel (Karpar) and a patch-work blanket (Kantha). Madhuraja, author of a number of works, was proficient in prose as well as verse. He was deeply impressed by the Acarya's exposition of Utpala's Sivadrsti, perhaps presented by him in the (now lost) Siva drsti-locana. Two other works of Abhinavagupta, lost to us now, are mentioned by Madhuraja, namely: Pancasika and Kathamukha Mahatilaka. Of these the latter is referred to by Acarya himself in his Paratrimsika, while the former is a new name. Dr. V. Raghavan, to whom we owe the credit for retrieving one of the manuscripts of Gurunatha Parmarsa, identifies it with Paryanta-Pancasika. Madhuraja looked upon Acarya Abhinavagupta as Daksinamurthi reborn in Kashmir. He has paid a poetic tribute to his guru, Abhinavagupta. His panegyric, Gurunatha Paramarsa, was published by the Research and Publications Department, J&K Govt. in 1960, when late Prof. PN Pushp was its director. Commenting on the forte of the Paramarsa, Prof Pushp wrote, "The pen-portrait of Abhinavaguptacarya in the arcadian milieu of his asrama lit up by his spiritual radiance is so vivid and superb, and gives a convincing peep into the integrated personality of the great Acarya". The text of Gurunatha Paramarsa, as established by the Research Department is based on two manuscripts -- a) Swami Lakshmana Joo of Ishbar, who copied out the manuscript in 1925 from a Devanagari transcript belonging to a grahasti mahatma of Madras (46 verses) b) Manuscript D. No: 15323 of the Sanskrit College, Tripunittura, Cochin, as utilised by Dr. V. Raghavan in his edition of the work, published in the JOR, Madras (47 verses). In the two manuscripts, only twenty eight verses are common. Out of the nineteen verses peculiar to manuscript mentioned in (b), only 1-9 verses refer to Abhinava-Bharati, Acarya's celebrated commentary on Natyasastra of Bharata. May be the other ten verses have been drawn from some other works of Madhuraja. Prof. Mohan Lal Koul, who holds deep insights into Kashmir Saivism and cultural tradition of Kashmir has translated 'Gurunatha Paramarsa' from original Sanskrit into English for the readers of Kashmir Sentinel. Below is the English translation -- (The Editor) The actual name of our village was Khirman Tilak Chand. One day, some Muslims from Wadipora came to us and sad, "we will remove your household goods to show to the raiders that Pandits had already been looted". We objected and said how was it possible to recover these later one. They replied, "we shall make Tapsil". Our ladies started weeping over this "advise". This plan of them was foiled by Muslims from other villages--Lachipora and Dudipora. We had very good relations with them. Abdul Ghani Bhat, working in Forest department and his brother-in-law Abdul Gaffar Dar led a crowd of 50-60 people. He challenged the Wadipora villagers and declared, "we shall see who will dare enter Pandit houses. We will not allow this at any cost. If such an eventuality rose later on, we shall try to counter that also, if possible". The looters felt discouraged at the stand of Ghani Bhat and Gaffar Dar. Our village had substantial (250) Pandit population. Many Pandit employees from Handwara had shifted to Wadipora. They included Shridhar Joo Dhar, SHO, Sham Lal Handoo, Tehsildar etc. Wadipora gained 'notoricity' for raiders since the treasury from Handwara was also shifted here. Some locals who bore enimity against Shridhar Dhar were planning to kill him. A Muslim milkman had overhead the conversation going on in this context. He went to Dhar, who was in hiding in his house, at village Badhaer. The milkman apprised him about the conspiracy and asked to him to remain ready for shifting to another safe place during night. Around 2.30 AM in the night, the milk man got Dhar out from the rear window of his house and made him reach Wadipora safely after crossing the plateau. One Khatri trader, Brij Lal Khatri, who ran a shop in Rajawar also shifted to Wadipora, along with some other Khatri traders. Brij Lal, who came during night was waylaid on the way and looted. Local Muslims did not resent the migration of other non-Muslims to Wadipora. They had also a feeling that India may retake Kashmir. We kept vigil during the night against the outsiders entering the our villages. Muslim villagers also joined us in this. After the massacre of Sikhs at Dudipora, our confidence was shattered. If Sikhs, who had weapons for self-defence could meet this fate, what would be our fate-this haunted us. On the eve of, the completion of one month after father's death (Masvar), we sent our one of the Kardars to fetch meat. He returned just after ten minutes and cried 'Aya Hasah' (they have come) we tried to escape but our uncle restrained us. He said that this was not the time for running and asked us to keep doors open for any eventuality. The doors of four rooms were opened and also unlocked the boxes containing beddings and other items for the raiders. While ladies were asked to go to the nearby Khal/Khirvan, we stationed ourselves at the main door. Gold ornaments were concealed us under earthern chulahs (fire pots) in the kitchen. Ours was a joint family and four uncles of mine lived in 3 houses complex. My aunt, Tarachand Trisal' wife, was restrained by her mother-in-law (the two had got stuck up at Wadipora) from keeping ornaments under Chulha. They took out the ornament, and dug out a pit in the earth on the open ground and kept it there. They preeved wiser. Thirty-two tribal raiders had come in a truck bearing plate--No: 555, Hazara Bus Service. Sixteen raiders armed with .303 rifles entered the courtyard of our housing complex. Rest of them divided themselves into small parties to prey other victims. Four went to Dudipora, another four raiders went to Bahadurpura to hunt Mohd Mukthar Bhat a teacher with strong pro-India leanings. Villagers from the adjoining villages came shortly after, to watch the scene and loot the left-over goods. While raiders were cleaning our house of the household items, they did not allow locals to touch the looted goods. They themselves filled the bags with looted goods and carried these to the truck lory parked nearby. A raider in Pushto asked me to hand over my watch. I had hid it and pretended that I had none. Another raider demanded my shoes. I politely told him, "Mai Kya Pahne Ga" (What I shall wear). Meanwhile a smartly dressed raider, wear Khakhi Shelwar, with revolver under his belt climbed up the staircase and was face to face with him. He had robust body and was wearing till dar Kula. The raider who asked me for shoes left immediately after he saw this raider entering the room. Other raiders were Khaki dress and grass shoes. They invariably took our shoes, leaving their grass shoes behind. Metal items were particular attraction for the raiders. The hookah in our house hade pipe made from silver. The raiders licked it with tongue to "confirm" this. The Sardar who had entered my room stood motionless before the portrait of my father. This hand-made portrait, 2½ feet x 2 feet, made in colour was prepared by Ramchand Bhan of Bana Mohalla. The potrait depicted my father studying a pothi (book). The Sardar of raiders stared at it for nearly five minutes. In turban and firan (gown), the raider took my father to be a pir. I was standing at the door in fear. Two raiders, who passed by were quite abusive and told me "Lao Sab Kuch Varna Mai Goli Mar Donga" (Get everything, otherwise I will shoot you). Another raider was foolishly packing up a carpet in a pashmina shawls (Dussa-Kashmiri), thinking that carpet was costslier. Those who saw this simply laughed. Khan--the Sardar ordered me in Urdu, 'Darwaza Bandh Karo, Sangal Bandh Karo" (Close the door. Bolt it). I closed my eyes, praying for the last moment. While entering my room, Khan had loaded the revolver. Then he entered my uncle's room and asked for a coat. I got two overcoats and presented to him. He said, "Tera Nahin Loonga" (I won't take yours). Because of father's death, all the bedding and clothes were kept in the big room (Watu) on ground-floor. Khan asked me to put other items in bags, while the bags were taken down by his subordinates. While coming down the staircase, I saw Arsalan, a notorious thief from Kulfaqir tribe of Drugmullar. He closely resembled raiders. Arsalan asked my uncle to hand over the entire cash saying, "Is Gar Me Teen Lakh Rupiya Hai, Woh Pesh Karo" (In this house there are three lakh rupees. Hand these over to us. My uncle replied, "Jitna Tha Woh Aapne Liya Ab Jan Bachi Hai" (whatever we had you have taken that, only our bodies remain now). Uncle worked in Revenue department and knew Arsalan well. My uncle was taken away by the raiders to the village shop, where their lorry was standing nearby. As an eagle crossed the sky, the raiders mistook its had now as that of an IAF plane and crouched themselves on the ground. The coats we wore, were taken away by the raiders. They called 'Dejhor' as 'Sone Ka Anda' (golden egg). I had earlier handed over 'Dejhor' of my wife to uncle Dina Nath. As raiders matched his coat, the 'dejhor' was lost for ever. My mother's 'Dezhor' was also in my pocket but before raiders took my coat, I had handed it over to our Muslim Kardar. Away from the watchful eyes of raiders, he had very tactfully taken it out from my pocket. Thief Arsala kept on insisting to raiders in pushto that my uncle was very rich. They threatened to kill my uncle. He broke down and disclosed where he had gold and cash. He led them to the kitchen, where raiders dug out the gold with big iron rods (sambals). From the "safe place" in the wall, raiders got the booty of Rs fifty thousand in cash. Raiders were extremely, happy. We asked them 'Aab Khush Ho Gaya: (are you happy now). They replied in affirmative. Raiders asked Habib Rawa to make tea for them, as they waited for the party which had gone to Wadipora. Two to five Sikh families from Dudipora had not gone to Devnal and stayed behind. They started fleeing as the news about the entry of raiders to Wadipora reached them. But about 8-10 Sikh males were killed. However, ladies were not touched. These ladies stayed with Raja Enayatullah till police came. There was total anarchy-neither any political party nor any government existed. A raider's group had gone to kill Mukhtar Bhat. They looted his house and grappled with raiders. From the top storey of his house, he pushed down a raider who fell into the big stone pestel (Kanz) below. There was no firing. Raiders panicked and beat a retreat. As raiders entered his house, around two hundred local Muslims had reached there to protect him. This also unnerved the raiders. Mukhtar was later on recruited in policy by Maulana Masoodi. He played a notable role in flushing out raiders during the second raid and guided Indian Army from Handwara to Chowkibal. While the raiders took tea, they had put their rifles down. After the raiders left, Muslims told us that they could overpower raiders while they kept their rifles down but were afraid of other raiders' party. The truck carrying looted, goods reached Sopore, where to stall raider's advance, local Hindus and Muslims had burnt down the main bridge. Raiders returned to Handwara, where four of them remained to guard their booty, while others left. During night they moved to Sagipora on Sopore-Handwara road. Subsequently they left for Sopore. At Sopore, raiders exchanged looted carpet for food from the local hanjis. They ferried across the truck with looted goods. While in Handwara, these very raiders had looted the treasury and decamped with cash. Raiders' truck was advancing towards. Army had reached Baramulla the same day. At Delina an army patrol killed two raiders, while arresting one. Another one escaped. The truck was seized and taken to Srinagar. What happened to our looted goods remains a mystery. We had strange thoughts that if raiders come again they would kill us since they had nothing to loot from us. As we went for ablutions next morning, we learnt that 8-10 raiders had stayed in the house of Daulat Khan's house. Daulat Khan, originally a pathan lived at Nagrad Naag, 2 kms away from our house. He was a rich landlord and supplemented his income by transporting timber of a forest contractor in his bullock-cart. His son, Sadiq was a famous wrestler. He had won a truck in Jammu in a wrestling competition. Later Sadiq emerged as a big transporter. We related our apprehensions to Daulat. He said, "why are you anxious. Those men stayed with me. I gave them a meal of chickens. Later in the morning, somebody came and whispered something to them. They hurriedly left towards Bungus Nowgam, on the looted horses of Pandits. They had misbehaved with my daughter-in-law. I felt relieved at their going back". During the period, when we had converted, some local Muslims asked us to interdine with them. They probably wanted to ascertain whether our 'conversion' was genuine. Myself and Shamboo Nath, to allay their apprehensions took Kahwa from Habibullah's shop. But Habibullah Rawa scolded them saying, "unless their heart accepts it why do you force them." Majority of the Muslims were against coercion. Meanwhile, Srinagar-Baramulla road had re-opened. We refurnished our house and wore scared thread again. My aunty and her mother-in-law were eager to return home. I had also to join my duties. We arranged a tonga and reached Sopore. Tonga was ferried across in Sopore, by disjoint its wheels for just Rs 10. As we crossed the Patan nursery, the horse was galloping furiously in apprehension. The corpses of the raiders, gunned won by the Army lay littered all over the road. Army had buried the bodies in groups on either side of the road but dogs had dug these out. Scene was repeated of and on. At Parimpora, Chattabal, a house was shown to us where "1200" raiders were hiding in preparation to the capture of airport. Army moved under camouflage and killed them in bombardment. In Srinagar, both Pandits and Muslim neighbours came to greet my aunty. I went to T.T. College, where teacher Kashi Nath could asked me to change my dress of Romi top and Shelwar immediately. He also advised me to meet Pandit Gopi Krishan, veteran educationist and SL Seru, a teacher at Shivala. As I narrated my agonizing tale, Pandit GOpi Krishan sobbed. It took me no persuasion to become member of his Sudhar Samiti. My training phase was over uncles refused to shift the family to Srinagar as demanded by my relatives in Srinagar. My final examinations were to take place in March after winter vacations were over. Back home in Wadipora, evening meet of the community became a routine for us. Keshav Bayu, the venerated head priest of the Bhadrakali Shrine passed a word to every family in and around Wadipora to observe special fast on Shavchaturdashi festival. He argued, "Since we had become Brasht and Shavchaturdashi was approaching, we should observe fast on 10th, 11th and 12th day of the fortnight. We had taken the 'fasting' meal at 4 PM on 10th day, and were relaxing on the verandah. A Muslim neighbour came and in an apprehension tone wished us "Salam". We asked him, "what happened'" He replied, "Chuv Na Bozaan Kabaili Vaith Trehgam" (Are you aware that raiders have reached Trehgam). He added that Dr SL Koul had suffered frostbite while fleeing and was resting in Keshav Bayu's house we rushed to meet him. Dr Koul said, "I was in my residential quarter, when raiders ransacked the house. I jumped from the rear window over snow". Immediately, Pandits of the village called a meeting and asked me and Shamboo Nath Koul to gather latest information from Handwara. At 4 AM in the night, I called at Shivjee's house and Shamboo Nath and myself left Wadipora. We walked over frozen snow, which had accumulated to a height of one and a half foot. I was in full "battle-dress", wearing long boots, goggles and pilot cap. In Handwara, shops were open but all the goods had been hoarded. Pandits of Handwara had left the previous night. Only the family of Pandit Kashi Nath Kaw, the brother of my younger aunty had stayed behind. Pandit Kashi Nath told me that he had been waiting for our decision. Meanwhile Shamboo Nath had disappeared without informing me. I rushed back home, where Pandits of the village had been waiting for me in the courtyard. I told them that we should leave for safety. Local Muslims told us to reconsider the decision. Prithvi Nath Zaildar asked them, "what did you do for our safety. When the raiders came first time." Our caravan of sixty souls left soon after. Families of Vishn Bhat, Ganjoos and Panditas left the next day. Two of our servants-tenants, including Wali Bhat proved their loyalty by making our march less tiresome. We reached Handwara. There also local Muslims told us to stay back and said they would provide full ration for us. They added that the army would not allow us to move. We managed to leave via Langate. The night was spent by us at Ujr, village from where Justice Makhan Lal Koul hails. His father Sham Lal was Zaildar Prithvi Nath's cousin. Pandit Sham Lal said, "I can provide you everything tea, pickles etc but no salt" I had carried two kgs of salt with me and gave them some salt. His wife prepared Sheerchai (salt tea) and maize bread for sixty people. Same evening we arranged two Khochas (country boats). Ujr Pandits also joined us for the onward journey. Three of us-Gandesh Dass Kar forest guard, Radha Krishan Koul and myself left on foot. Pandit Radha Krishan, who was a teacher, was elder brother of Pandit Sham Lal. We soon touched Kupwara-Sopore road. Armoured jeeps with chains tied to the wheels were moving on. Few soldiers shouted at us, "Dushman Kidar Hai" (where is the enemy). We replied fifteen kilometres away. Apprehension gripped us that armymen may ask us to accompany them. We shifted our track and went through fields overladen with snow. My uncle who was in Sopore had been misinformed that his family after leaving Wadipora has been liquidated by the Pak army. After hearing this news, he had suffered a breakdown. Uncle had been staying as a tenant in the house of Dina Nath, serving as post-master. Immediately on arrival I contacted Dina Nath and told him that uncle's family was safe. The family was on way to Sopore. In Sopore our group got separated. Pandits of Sopore charged no rent for the houses they rented to us. They provided us free rations for one month, till government undertook relief measures. We stayed in Sopore for six months. After a weak I and Sona Lal Thusu, of Lidderwan went to Wadipora and brought eight-horse loads of rice, oil and spices etc. Some locals had pilfered our paddy and other left-over items. Till then army was still in Kulangam and Handwara had no effective security. Our tenants helped us in loading the rations. When we left Wadipora, my uncle Nilakanth's family was held up in Gushi. His wife hailed from this village. He, GOpi Nath, Serjeant in Police, a Sikh peon and his brother had been taken hostage by Pak army. They had been lodged in Tehsildar Mohamed Amin's quarter located in the tehsil complex. Nilakanth was serving in Gushi as Patwari. These hostages before being taken as hostage, had been desperately looking for some Pandit families of Handwara, who had stayed behind. These families were not traceable as they feared their own security. Two hundred raiders under the command of Sanhi of Karnah had descended down to Handwara. Gopi Nath tricked raiders by telling them he was a mukhrir in the local police station. He was asked to take attendance of raiders. Nilakanth described himself as a Makhtab Moulvi. Tehsildar Mohd Amin played a positive role. Two Sikhs were killed, while Gopi Nath and Nilakanth were released. They located a Pandit family and stayed with them. Meanwhile uncle's family reached from Gushi and left for Sopore. Another raiders' group went to Gushi and massacred Malla family members. Only one male, who lay among the corpses survived. He stayed in the cowshed and had sustained bullet injury in the neck. We returned finally in May-June 1948. Locals cooperated with us. Leaders-Sofi Akbar and Pandit Kashyap Bandhu visited our village to rebuild the inter-communal relations and asked the practise our religion of without any fear. Source: Kashmir Sentinel From chandni.parekh at gmail.com Mon Jun 22 11:28:41 2009 From: chandni.parekh at gmail.com (Chandni Parekh) Date: Mon, 22 Jun 2009 11:28:41 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Screening of 'The Queen and I' on 29th June at Prithvi House, Bombay Message-ID: From: Vikalp at Prithvi **** ** * VIKALP at PRITHVI * ** *Monday, 29th June, 2009* ** *7 pm & 9:30 pm* When Nahid Persson Sarvestani, an Iranian exile, set out to make a documentary about Farrah, the wife of the Shah of Iran, she expected to encounter her opposite. As a child, Persson Sarvestani had lived in dire poverty, watching Farrah’s wedding as if it were a fairy tale. As a teenager, she joined the Communist faction of Khomeini’s revolution that deposed the Shah, sending him and his family volleying from country to country. When Khomeini betrayed his promise for democracy, imposing more violent measures than the Shah had, Persson Sarvestani was also forced to flee. Thirty years later, she needs key questions answered and goes directly to the source. Queen Farrah welcomes her as a fellow refugee from their beloved homeland, granting unprecedented access. Over the next year and a half, Persson Sarvestani enters the queen’s world, planning to challenge the Shah’s ideology; instead, she must rethink her own. When Persson Sarvestani’s prior opposition to the Shah surfaces, the queen shuts down filming. Yet, in the struggle to understand each other’s experiences, an unlikely friendship has blossomed. Confronting Farrah about the Shah’s repression has become not only a political conflict but a personal one, and Persson Sarvestani’s objectivity is shaken. Both are women living in exile. Over time, the two confront each other about their past, question their former beliefs, and share their grievances. Their relationship grows as they realize they have much in common as two strong women who have risen above hardships to continue evolving towards a positive future. In this gripping, poignant consideration of subjectivity as truth, we learn that people write history. And can also heal it. *The Queen and I*, made by a former revolutionary who helped to overthrow the monarchy in Iran’s 1979 revolution, couldn’t be more relevant as we reach across our own political aisles. Filmmaker Nahid Persson Sarvestani began a formalized study of television and film production in Sweden, and in 2003 attended Dramatiska Institutet. She has made several films in Iran under challenging conditions, among them *Prostitution Behind the Veil*, for which the Iranian authorities detained her for more than three months. ** * * *The Queen and I* Swedish/ 2008/ 90 mins * * *Director: *Nahid Persson Sarvestani *Editor: *Zinat S. Lloyd *Music: *Mirage *Cinematographer: *Nicklas Karpaty *Sound: *Rostm Persson, William Kaplan, Arvid Lind *Publicist: *Sara Vahabi ** http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BLQ9DbhnIRQ * * * * * No Entry Fee. Limited Seating. * Prithvi House, Opposite Prithvi Theatre, Janki Kutir, Juhu, Mumbai. * The registration desk will be open between 6 pm to 6:45 pm and 8:30 to 9:15 pm. * For more information, write to us at vikalp.prithvi at gmail.com * For screening queries contact Anand Patwardhan 9819882244 Lynne Henry 9820896425 From jeebesh at sarai.net Mon Jun 22 11:32:55 2009 From: jeebesh at sarai.net (Jeebesh) Date: Mon, 22 Jun 2009 11:32:55 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Fwd: Carbon dioxide in Atmosphere References: <70c502d20906210716n6a68b997j7ac5c9c291ec1442@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: What does this do to our ideas of good life? Begin forwarded message: > From: Ananth S > Date: 21 June 2009 7:46:12 PM GMT+05:30 > To: bemous2007 at gmail.com > Subject: Carbon dioxide in Atmosphere > > 2.1 Million-Year High Measured for Carbon Dioxide in Atmosphere > By Jeremy van Loon > http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid=newsarchive&sid=aG5p2kBin538 > June 18 (Bloomberg) -- Carbon dioxide in the earth’s atmosphere has > risen to its highest level in at least 2.1 million years, according > to a new investigation of the greenhouse gas’s role in ice ages over > the millennia. > > Researchers including Columbia University’s Baerbel Hoenisch drilled > into the ocean floor off the coast of Africa to remove shells of > ancient marine animals called foraminifera that contain climate > records, according to the study published today on Science’s Web > site. Previous evidence of CO2 concentrations found in columns of > Arctic ice go back just 800,000 years. > > Carbon dioxide, which traps heat close to earth, is the main > contributor to global warming, threatening to raise sea levels and > disrupt food production and water supplies, United Nations > scientists have said. The marine sediment indicated “stable” levels > of atmospheric CO2 at less than 250 molecules per million molecules > of air, compared with about 385 today. > > “What’s remarkable is how little CO2 concentration changed in the > past,” said Jerry McManus, a paleoclimatology professor at Columbia > who participated in the study. “What we’re seeing now is the same > magnitude of natural variations happening in only a few decades.” > > The CO2 concentration ranged between 181 and 297 parts per million > over the period studied. It may be necessary to go back as far as > 2.7 million years to find levels of CO2 similar to today’s, the > study concluded, without attributing reasons for previous surges. > > Carbon Spike > > If the world continues to burn coal and oil and cut down forests > that store carbon, the amount of CO2 in the atmosphere may more than > double to 900 parts per million in the next century, the UN’s > Environment Programme Executive Director Achim Steiner has said. > > Negotiators at UN-sponsored talks are attempting to set limits on > CO2 emissions. Delegates are focused on restricting output of the > gas, which has grown 2 percent since industrialization in the 1800s, > to 450 parts per million and slowing the rise in average global > temperature to 2 degrees Celsius (3.6 Fahrenheit) over the next > century. > > “With unabated emissions, many trends in climate will likely > accelerate, leading to an increasing risk of abrupt or irreversible > climatic shifts,” 10 universities said today in a report suggesting > that climate change was underestimated. > > The United Nations Intergovernmental Panel on Climate Change in 2007 > blamed global warming on emissions of such gases and warned of > increased flooding and drought as temperatures continue to rise. > Greenhouse gases also include water vapor, methane and nitrous oxide. > > ‘Unprecedented’ > > The study published in Science today “is the best existing record so > far that shows atmospheric concentrations of carbon dioxide,” said > Columbia’s McManus. “It strengthens the case that this is fairly > unprecedented” for an increase in CO2. > > Other evidence of greenhouse gas concentration has been discovered > in ice. Polar researchers reported last year in the journal Nature > that carbon dioxide was at an 800,000-year high, after studying > bubbles trapped in ice drilled from the Antarctic. > > Hoenisch and colleagues investigated the role of the carbon cycle in > climate change and concluded that CO2 was probably not responsible > for lengthening the time between major ice ages to 100,000 years > from 40,000, countering a supposition that massive ice sheets grew > and receded because of gradually decreasing levels of carbon dioxide. > > Even with the likelihood of the earth warming up in the coming > centuries, we’re headed for another ice age at some point thousands > of years in the future, said McManus. > > “The earth is moving into an increasingly glaciated state,” he said. > “It’s just that the intervals between ice ages, which we’re living > in now, have become longer and warmer.” > From rakesh.rnbdj at gmail.com Mon Jun 22 11:44:30 2009 From: rakesh.rnbdj at gmail.com (Rakesh Iyer) Date: Mon, 22 Jun 2009 11:44:30 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Fwd: Carbon dioxide in Atmosphere In-Reply-To: References: <70c502d20906210716n6a68b997j7ac5c9c291ec1442@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: Dear Jeebesh ji Don't worry. Since members of this forum are more concerned about identity issues and the superiority of Prophet Muhammad over Lord Ram (or vice versa) or one prophet over another, this issue will be transferred to gods. After all, when the Al-Qaedas and the Bajrang Dals exist, it's more important to have more mosques, more temples, more churches and more gurudwaras rather than survival of human beings. And if any trouble comes, by praying there, the gods will come back again (or prophets) and rescue us. After all, isn't that what they are supposed to do. Regards Rakesh From kauladityaraj at gmail.com Mon Jun 22 14:24:22 2009 From: kauladityaraj at gmail.com (Aditya Raj Kaul) Date: Mon, 22 Jun 2009 14:24:22 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Ultras target Amarnath yatra; explosive defused Message-ID: <6353c690906220154w668cf4dmcfb812314f02af25@mail.gmail.com> *Ultras target Amarnath yatra; explosive defused* 2009-06-22 12:01:00 Jammu: Army today foiled militants bid totarget the Amarnath yatra by detecting and defusing anImprovised Explosive Device (IED) on Jammu-Srinagar NationalHighway at Panthal, 155 km from here. Militants had planted the high intensity IED in Panthalarea to target a convoy of the Amarnath Yatra, they said. However, IED was detected by the Roap Opening Party (RoP)of Army, which is guarding the highway, they said, addingtraffic was stopped at Panthal and cavalcade of 53 vehiclescarrying 1,703 pilgrims was halted, they said. Later, special bomb disposal squad of army defused theIED on the spot, they said. The yatra and traffic was resumed after one hour-longhalt till 1015 hours, they said. -- Aditya Raj Kaul Freelance Correspondent, The Times of India Cell - +91-9873297834 Blog: http://activistsdiary.blogspot.com/ From kshmendra2005 at yahoo.com Mon Jun 22 14:46:32 2009 From: kshmendra2005 at yahoo.com (Kshmendra Kaul) Date: Mon, 22 Jun 2009 02:16:32 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Reader-list] Very interesting Video - If authentic Message-ID: <312483.24195.qm@web57207.mail.re3.yahoo.com> This is being circulated as a clip from Abu Dhabi TV  (29/12/06). The logo on the screen is positively of Abu Dhabhi TV.   If authentic, this is a very interesting video showing comments on 'Arab World' by one referred to as "Dhiyaa Al-Musawi - Bahraini Intellectual"    http://switch5.castup.net/frames/20041020_MemriTV_Popup/video_480x360.asp?ai=214&ar=1363wmv&ak=null   Kshmendra     From pawan.durani at gmail.com Mon Jun 22 15:19:30 2009 From: pawan.durani at gmail.com (Pawan Durani) Date: Mon, 22 Jun 2009 15:19:30 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Iran - Live stream Message-ID: <6b79f1a70906220249mbec6ec2h74c6ed8be3486f11@mail.gmail.com> http://iranelection09.blogspot.com/ From nagraj.adve at gmail.com Mon Jun 22 16:24:14 2009 From: nagraj.adve at gmail.com (Nagraj Adve) Date: Mon, 22 Jun 2009 16:24:14 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Fwd: Carbon dioxide in Atmosphere In-Reply-To: References: <70c502d20906210716n6a68b997j7ac5c9c291ec1442@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <564b2fca0906220354j4aad8a5evb1f36f385610fc9d@mail.gmail.com> Interesting posting Jeebesh. Not sure what it does to our idea of a good life, point is whether it changes our good life itself. It's a question I've been grappling with for a while: would the better off change their lifestyle significantly upon reading item after item of extremely grim info on climate change. There's limited evidence of that as yet in relation to the scale or urgency of the problem. In passing, I just hope that this year's high temperatures since February are a random aberration, though I don't it is. And for that matter the stalled monsoon. I've just got back from Ranchi (in fact from a meeting on climate change of several organizations, forest peoples groups, fish workers, coastal peoples organizations, NTUI, bunch of NGOs, etc) and the dryness through the landscape was striking. In my village in south Karnataka, where the rain has reached, it's raining too little and intermittently.And since CO2 stays to significant level in teh air for decades (centuries possibly), these changes are effectively irreversible. And there's the 30 year lag of warming still to be felt. So we can only make sure things don't get a damn lot worse. Cheerfully, Naga On 22/06/2009, Jeebesh wrote: > > What does this do to our ideas of good life? > > Begin forwarded message: > > > From: Ananth S > > Date: 21 June 2009 7:46:12 PM GMT+05:30 > > To: bemous2007 at gmail.com > > Subject: Carbon dioxide in Atmosphere > > > > 2.1 Million-Year High Measured for Carbon Dioxide in Atmosphere > > By Jeremy van Loon > > http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid=newsarchive&sid=aG5p2kBin538 > > June 18 (Bloomberg) -- Carbon dioxide in the earth’s atmosphere has > > risen to its highest level in at least 2.1 million years, according > > to a new investigation of the greenhouse gas’s role in ice ages over > > the millennia. > > > > Researchers including Columbia University’s Baerbel Hoenisch drilled > > into the ocean floor off the coast of Africa to remove shells of > > ancient marine animals called foraminifera that contain climate > > records, according to the study published today on Science’s Web > > site. Previous evidence of CO2 concentrations found in columns of > > Arctic ice go back just 800,000 years. > > > > Carbon dioxide, which traps heat close to earth, is the main > > contributor to global warming, threatening to raise sea levels and > > disrupt food production and water supplies, United Nations > > scientists have said. The marine sediment indicated “stable” levels > > of atmospheric CO2 at less than 250 molecules per million molecules > > of air, compared with about 385 today. > > > > “What’s remarkable is how little CO2 concentration changed in the > > past,” said Jerry McManus, a paleoclimatology professor at Columbia > > who participated in the study. “What we’re seeing now is the same > > magnitude of natural variations happening in only a few decades.” > > > > The CO2 concentration ranged between 181 and 297 parts per million > > over the period studied. It may be necessary to go back as far as > > 2.7 million years to find levels of CO2 similar to today’s, the > > study concluded, without attributing reasons for previous surges. > > > > Carbon Spike > > > > If the world continues to burn coal and oil and cut down forests > > that store carbon, the amount of CO2 in the atmosphere may more than > > double to 900 parts per million in the next century, the UN’s > > Environment Programme Executive Director Achim Steiner has said. > > > > Negotiators at UN-sponsored talks are attempting to set limits on > > CO2 emissions. Delegates are focused on restricting output of the > > gas, which has grown 2 percent since industrialization in the 1800s, > > to 450 parts per million and slowing the rise in average global > > temperature to 2 degrees Celsius (3.6 Fahrenheit) over the next > > century. > > > > “With unabated emissions, many trends in climate will likely > > accelerate, leading to an increasing risk of abrupt or irreversible > > climatic shifts,” 10 universities said today in a report suggesting > > that climate change was underestimated. > > > > The United Nations Intergovernmental Panel on Climate Change in 2007 > > blamed global warming on emissions of such gases and warned of > > increased flooding and drought as temperatures continue to rise. > > Greenhouse gases also include water vapor, methane and nitrous oxide. > > > > ‘Unprecedented’ > > > > The study published in Science today “is the best existing record so > > far that shows atmospheric concentrations of carbon dioxide,” said > > Columbia’s McManus. “It strengthens the case that this is fairly > > unprecedented” for an increase in CO2. > > > > Other evidence of greenhouse gas concentration has been discovered > > in ice. Polar researchers reported last year in the journal Nature > > that carbon dioxide was at an 800,000-year high, after studying > > bubbles trapped in ice drilled from the Antarctic. > > > > Hoenisch and colleagues investigated the role of the carbon cycle in > > climate change and concluded that CO2 was probably not responsible > > for lengthening the time between major ice ages to 100,000 years > > from 40,000, countering a supposition that massive ice sheets grew > > and receded because of gradually decreasing levels of carbon dioxide. > > > > Even with the likelihood of the earth warming up in the coming > > centuries, we’re headed for another ice age at some point thousands > > of years in the future, said McManus. > > > > “The earth is moving into an increasingly glaciated state,” he said. > > “It’s just that the intervals between ice ages, which we’re living > > in now, have become longer and warmer.” > > > > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > subscribe in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> From ravig64 at gmail.com Mon Jun 22 16:31:25 2009 From: ravig64 at gmail.com (Ravi Agarwal) Date: Mon, 22 Jun 2009 16:31:25 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Fwd: Carbon dioxide in Atmosphere In-Reply-To: References: <70c502d20906210716n6a68b997j7ac5c9c291ec1442@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: time to unpack 'good!!' ravi On Mon, Jun 22, 2009 at 11:32 AM, Jeebesh wrote: > What does this do to our ideas of good life? > > Begin forwarded message: > > > From: Ananth S > > Date: 21 June 2009 7:46:12 PM GMT+05:30 > > To: bemous2007 at gmail.com > > Subject: Carbon dioxide in Atmosphere > > > > 2.1 Million-Year High Measured for Carbon Dioxide in Atmosphere > > By Jeremy van Loon > > http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid=newsarchive&sid=aG5p2kBin538 > > June 18 (Bloomberg) -- Carbon dioxide in the earth’s atmosphere has > > risen to its highest level in at least 2.1 million years, according > > to a new investigation of the greenhouse gas’s role in ice ages over > > the millennia. > > > > Researchers including Columbia University’s Baerbel Hoenisch drilled > > into the ocean floor off the coast of Africa to remove shells of > > ancient marine animals called foraminifera that contain climate > > records, according to the study published today on Science’s Web > > site. Previous evidence of CO2 concentrations found in columns of > > Arctic ice go back just 800,000 years. > > > > Carbon dioxide, which traps heat close to earth, is the main > > contributor to global warming, threatening to raise sea levels and > > disrupt food production and water supplies, United Nations > > scientists have said. The marine sediment indicated “stable” levels > > of atmospheric CO2 at less than 250 molecules per million molecules > > of air, compared with about 385 today. > > > > “What’s remarkable is how little CO2 concentration changed in the > > past,” said Jerry McManus, a paleoclimatology professor at Columbia > > who participated in the study. “What we’re seeing now is the same > > magnitude of natural variations happening in only a few decades.” > > > > The CO2 concentration ranged between 181 and 297 parts per million > > over the period studied. It may be necessary to go back as far as > > 2.7 million years to find levels of CO2 similar to today’s, the > > study concluded, without attributing reasons for previous surges. > > > > Carbon Spike > > > > If the world continues to burn coal and oil and cut down forests > > that store carbon, the amount of CO2 in the atmosphere may more than > > double to 900 parts per million in the next century, the UN’s > > Environment Programme Executive Director Achim Steiner has said. > > > > Negotiators at UN-sponsored talks are attempting to set limits on > > CO2 emissions. Delegates are focused on restricting output of the > > gas, which has grown 2 percent since industrialization in the 1800s, > > to 450 parts per million and slowing the rise in average global > > temperature to 2 degrees Celsius (3.6 Fahrenheit) over the next > > century. > > > > “With unabated emissions, many trends in climate will likely > > accelerate, leading to an increasing risk of abrupt or irreversible > > climatic shifts,” 10 universities said today in a report suggesting > > that climate change was underestimated. > > > > The United Nations Intergovernmental Panel on Climate Change in 2007 > > blamed global warming on emissions of such gases and warned of > > increased flooding and drought as temperatures continue to rise. > > Greenhouse gases also include water vapor, methane and nitrous oxide. > > > > ‘Unprecedented’ > > > > The study published in Science today “is the best existing record so > > far that shows atmospheric concentrations of carbon dioxide,” said > > Columbia’s McManus. “It strengthens the case that this is fairly > > unprecedented” for an increase in CO2. > > > > Other evidence of greenhouse gas concentration has been discovered > > in ice. Polar researchers reported last year in the journal Nature > > that carbon dioxide was at an 800,000-year high, after studying > > bubbles trapped in ice drilled from the Antarctic. > > > > Hoenisch and colleagues investigated the role of the carbon cycle in > > climate change and concluded that CO2 was probably not responsible > > for lengthening the time between major ice ages to 100,000 years > > from 40,000, countering a supposition that massive ice sheets grew > > and receded because of gradually decreasing levels of carbon dioxide. > > > > Even with the likelihood of the earth warming up in the coming > > centuries, we’re headed for another ice age at some point thousands > > of years in the future, said McManus. > > > > “The earth is moving into an increasingly glaciated state,” he said. > > “It’s just that the intervals between ice ages, which we’re living > > in now, have become longer and warmer.” > > > > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > subscribe in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> From aryakrish at gmail.com Mon Jun 22 16:39:32 2009 From: aryakrish at gmail.com (aryakrishnan ramakrishnan) Date: Mon, 22 Jun 2009 16:39:32 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Dalit folk fusion music Message-ID: Dear all Found this interesting article from this artist from Keralam, who is doing a series of writing on his music in this site. The song in the site is a remix of an old dalit folk song. http://thefishpond.in/2009/06/jukebox-diaries-1/ regards Aryan From cashmeeri at yahoo.com Mon Jun 22 19:43:01 2009 From: cashmeeri at yahoo.com (cashmeeri) Date: Mon, 22 Jun 2009 07:13:01 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Reader-list] Lalgarh does not exist Message-ID: <750947.91537.qm@web112601.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> Discomfort in ideological terrains to be negotiated over and negotiated.   Lalgarh does not exist. From akmalik45 at yahoo.com Mon Jun 22 22:36:40 2009 From: akmalik45 at yahoo.com (A.K. Malik) Date: Mon, 22 Jun 2009 10:06:40 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Reader-list] Ultras target Amarnath yatra; explosive defused Message-ID: <355123.54971.qm@web39107.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Hi, Had this been done to Muslim pilgrims, the whole world would have burst.God forbid,if it were in India and there would have been Secularists crying foul. But Hindu pilgrims need no sympathies, this is what am able to get from the media and the Secularists on this forum. Regards (A.K.MALIK) --- On Mon, 6/22/09, Aditya Raj Kaul wrote: > From: Aditya Raj Kaul > Subject: [Reader-list] Ultras target Amarnath yatra; explosive defused > To: "sarai list" > Date: Monday, June 22, 2009, 2:24 PM > *Ultras target Amarnath yatra; > explosive defused* > 2009-06-22 12:01:00 > Jammu: Army today foiled militants bid totarget the > Amarnath yatra by > detecting and defusing anImprovised Explosive Device (IED) > on Jammu-Srinagar > NationalHighway at Panthal, 155 km from here. > > Militants had planted the high intensity IED in Panthalarea > to target a > convoy of the Amarnath Yatra, they said. > > However, IED was detected by the Roap Opening Party (RoP)of > Army, which is > guarding the highway, they said, addingtraffic was stopped > at Panthal and > cavalcade of 53 vehiclescarrying 1,703 pilgrims was halted, > they said. > > Later, special bomb disposal squad of army defused theIED > on the spot, they > said. > > The yatra and traffic was resumed after one hour-longhalt > till 1015 hours, > they said. > > > -- > Aditya Raj Kaul > > Freelance Correspondent, The Times of India > Cell -  +91-9873297834 > > Blog: http://activistsdiary.blogspot.com/ > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the > city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net > with subscribe in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> From akmalik45 at yahoo.com Mon Jun 22 22:49:35 2009 From: akmalik45 at yahoo.com (A.K. Malik) Date: Mon, 22 Jun 2009 10:19:35 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Reader-list] Detained in India, arrested in Bangladesh Message-ID: <55371.26252.qm@web39103.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Hi, The entire episode seems Straight from our Bollywood.Unable to express views whom to blame especially the part where he was called to Indian territory.BSF jawans?? (A.K.MALIK) --- On Mon, 6/22/09, Harsh Kapoor wrote: > From: Harsh Kapoor > Subject: [Reader-list] Detained in India, arrested in Bangladesh > To: "sarai list" > Date: Monday, June 22, 2009, 4:41 AM > New Age, 22 June 2009 > > Detained in India, arrested in Bangladesh > > Shahidul Alam in an interview with Rahnuma Ahmed > > > Please tell us about your project and why you were detained > by the > Indian Border Security Force. > >    I started the Brahmaputra project in the > late 1990s. It’s an > incredible river that goes from Tibet through Arunachal and > Assam in > India, into Bangladesh and all the way into the Bay of > Bengal. In the > early part of the project I’d done some video footage in > Tibet and > India, but not any in Bangladesh. We at Drik felt that we > should try > and produce a film, so my colleagues in the audiovisual > department, > Sumeru Mukhopadhyay and Abul Kasem, and I went off to > Nijhum Deep in > the south, in the Bay of Bengal on 11th June for 3 days. > >    We returned to Dhaka, then went to > Rowmari on the 15th to > photograph the section of the river where it crosses from > India to > Bangladesh. We drove up to Chilmari, went by boat to the > Rowmari side, > found a guesthouse. It was late afternoon, and we thought > we should go > out on a recce. As photographers we had obviously cameras, > and I had a > video camera with me. > >    As it often happens in villages, > distances are not the same as we > measure it in the city, so whenever we asked people where > it was, > they’d say, ‘just out there’, ‘a little bit > further’, ‘ten more > minutes...’ We ended up travelling quite a long way, by > van, a little > by boat, then we walked through market places, by > people’s homes, with > cameras dangling on either side, three strangers, creating > a lot of > attention. > >    At one point we were walking across some > paddy fields, and an > elderly farmer stopped me and said, this is a difficult way > to go, why > don’t you go on to the road which is nearby. This was a > clay track > road, very overgrown, not much of a road, but soon after I > got on to > this road armed BSF (Indian Border Security Force) people > from the > other side of the fence beckoned me. I knew this was a > dangerous > situation. I knew that 52 Bangladeshis had been gunned down > by the BSF > during the last 6 months. I was possibly only 50 yards away > – well > within their shooting range. It wasn’t sensible to do > anything other > than comply. So, I walked calmly towards them, making plans > about how > I should proceed. > >    As I had sort of expected when I got > close to the gate, they opened > the gate, several of them ran out and literally dragged me > inside. And > locked the gate. I was well and truly within India. > >    You mean there were no border signposts. > >    No, there was absolutely no sign > mentioning territory, or that we > were crossing into restricted zone, whether it was no > man’s land or > anything else. These were paddy fields we were walking > across. When I > got onto this dirt track, there was still no sign. One > could see there > was the Indian border far away, one could certainly see the > fence. And > it was soon after I got onto the dirt track that the BSF > beckoned me. > But before that, there’d been absolutely no indication > that we were > outside anywhere of Bangladesh. > >    But what about BDR soldiers? > >    No, none. Certainly, we’d expected > there to be BDR jawans and other > people, or at least some sort of an indication near the > border, but > there weren’t any. > >    After the BSF pulled you into their > gates, what happened? Did they > assault you? > >    No. They came out and grabbed me, and > dragged me in. They (how many > were they?) about 5 or 6, there were more inside, they were > a bit > rough in dragging me in but I wouldn’t say I was > assaulted. > >    As a seasoned photojournalist, how did > you strategise, to get out > of this situation? > >    Well, since I was in their firing range > what was most important was > to stay alive. Once inside, there was the question of > avoiding > physical violence. I felt I would be much safer in the > hands of senior > officers than in the hands of jawans, trigger-happy jawans > in > particular. Knowing the history between the BSF and > Bangladeshis, I > felt that presenting myself as a Bangladeshi was going to > be suicidal. > >    I made the decision that I was going to > be a foreign photographer, > out on an assignment. I decided I would speak only in > English. I did > have Bangladeshi identity with me which I didn’t want to > show. I also > had a UK driver’s license, so it made sense for me to be > British. I > mentioned National Geographic because that was a known name > and even > out here the jawans might have heard of it. I also > calculated that > bringing in a US component could give me some sort of > insularity, > given the power of the US, and the fact that India was its > close ally. > As for the National Geographic, I am on their Advisory > Board. I give a > lecture there every year, I’m involved in many of their > seminars so I > do have a long relationship with the organisation but I > wasn’t on > assignment for them. > >    My initial attempt at convincing them > that I was a foreigner with > British and US connections was merely power play. I was > trying to make > sure the jawans felt I wasn’t some Bangladeshi they could > beat up and > kill, but someone from far away, who had better > connections. And > frankly, I was using the race and class card. > >    What happened after that? > >    Well, talk of the National Geographic, of > being British, shook them > a little bit. Of course, I pretended I didn’t speak > Bangla or Hindi. I > heard them talking amongst each other, saying that perhaps > it wasn’t > such a good idea to take a foreigner, perhaps they should > let him go. > >    I decided to push my luck further. I > said, unless you let me speak > to my National Geographic colleagues they might report to > head office. > Then I rang you, my partner, and I spoke to you in my best > British > accent. I remember it took you a little while since we > don’t speak to > each other in English, but you quickly twigged. More for > the audience > than for anyone else, I fairly loudly told you to inform > the prime > minister, the home minister, the BDR people, the BSF head, > etc. I > pulled names out of my hat willy-nilly, but making sure > they were > important-sounding names, so that that these jawans > recognised that I > was a very important person, with important connections. > >    How were you treated by BSF once they > knew that you were a big-shot > photographer? > >    Once the officers arrived, I felt, I was > more in control. They > wanted to look at my identity card, asked for my address. > Soon, the > officer, a Mr PK Roy, a Bengali, was convinced that I was > not an > ordinary Bangladeshi but probably an important foreign > photographer. > Their attitude began to change. He asked the jawans to get > me a cup of > tea. > >    Later, he got a phone call, from > obviously a senior person on his > side, who presumably told him that I should be released, > that I should > be taken good care of. Now, it was a question of the > information > percolating down to the lower levels of command, and > getting a written > confirmation from his immediate superiors before he could > release me. > >    Much later, sweets were bought from the > market. The tone of the > conversation, and the dynamics, changed completely. But, as > it was > getting dark, they were convinced no handover would take > place at > night. I was taken to a guesthouse nearby, into a room, > with a > television, a telephone with a handle, a bed, an attached > bathroom. > Very clean, very pleasant place, and given dinner. Mr PK > Roy was very > concerned that I was made to feel looked after. I spoke to > his > commander who was extremely polite, apologised for the > situation, and > said that the BDR had been informed. I would be handed over > to the > BDR, as soon as communication took place. I thanked him, > and assured > him that I was being well looked after. It was a very > civil > conversation. > >    What were your concerns then, as a > photographer? > >    I’d been taking pictures along the way. > I’d been shooting with a > wide angle lens. I was pretty certain that my wide angle > shots, my > landscape photos etc, would have segments of the space I > was going > through, which I now realised was illegal. I didn’t want > to get caught > with these pictures, so I worked out how to remove this > incriminating > evidence. > >    What happened after you were handed over? > It was at 11:15, right? > >    Yes, around then. It was pitch dark, > dense shrubbery, bad roads. We > came to a point where Mr PK Roy said this is where the sign > is [Indian > no man’s land begins]. So I said, well, please show me > the sign. They > looked around, but couldn’t find it. They apologised and > said, please > believe us, it’s here, we can’t find it right now. Then > they met the > BDR people, again, a very civil meeting. The BSF produced a > document > for the BDR to sign, when I was handed over. > >    Once the Indians left, the BDR subedar > got a phone call from his > commanding officer. He spoke to me then, and initially > accused me, > apni lukie gecchen, you sneaked into this place. I strongly > objected > because we’d come in broad daylight, three of us, we had > equipment, we > had asked people for directions. He then changed his tack. > He said > there were some formalities which I had to go through, > papers I needed > to sign. Of course, I agreed. > >    And did you learn from the Kurigram BDR, > how they came to know of > your detention by the BSF? Was it locally, or from Dhaka? > >    No, I found out later from conversations, > they’d received the > information from Dhaka. In fact, the subedar was very > worried about > this. When the BDR director general had rung from Dhaka, he > had > specific information about where I was. But the local-level > BDR hadn’t > a clue. > >    And why do you think those at the > local-level didn’t know? > >    I was told about this later. I was > chatting to them and they said, > we’d normally have known. It wouldn’t have occurred but > we had some > VIP guests. We had been busy entertaining the VIPs. > >    And after that...? > >    Initially, we went to the BDR camp, three > of us on a motorcycle, > miles away from where this incident took place. They > offered me food > which had apparently been prepared for the VIP guests so it > was good > food. They kept saying another 5-10 minutes, but after a > long time, I > said look, what’s going on here, I want to get back. We > eventually > started walking but instead of taking me to the guesthouse, > they took > me to the thana. Another long wait, close conversations > between BDR > personnel and police. At one stage, I said, I’m very > appreciative that > you’ve got me out of India. But I’m now a citizen in my > own country, > you have no right to keep me here unless you’re arresting > me for > something. I got up to walk away and that’s when I > realised they > weren’t going to let me leave the place. By then I learnt > from local > people who had come to the thana that the BDR was about to > file a case > against me. At this stage I rang you again, this was about > 2:30/3:00 > in the morning. Shortly after this, they confiscated my > cameras, and > my phone. I no longer had direct access to anyone. > >    So, why did the Bangladesh government > file a case against you? > >    It’s conjecture, of course. The local > BDR were extremely worried > about the predicament they were in. The fact that they had > no > knowledge of this incident, that the border had been > completely > un-manned, that there was no BDR person in sight, that they > didn’t > know about it even after the local people had gotten to > know. It left > them with egg on their face. And again, the original > accusation by the > colonel suggested that there was an attempt to put the > blame and onus > upon us, that we had sneaked into this place, which was > clearly not > true. So, there was huge negligence on the part of the BDR, > and I > suspect they needed some sort of a diversionary tactic to > cover up for > their omission. > >    Did your bail application and the court > proceedings go through smoothly? > >    Yes, everyone was very cooperative. I was > also granted permission > to travel abroad. I am scheduled for an exclusive photo > shoot with > Nelson Mandela, and there are other important assignments > that I > wouldn’t like to miss, yes, things went very well. Most > Kurigram > lawyers and journalists were they. They rallied around me. > >    If you were not who you are, what could > have happened? > >    Possibly, the worst. The BDR men > themselves told me that I’d done a > very wise thing by walking up to them, not attempting to > run, or doing > anything silly. They said they were scared to go to these > places. > That, sometimes, criminals take shelter from the police by > going to > these regions because they know that the police are scared > of > venturing there. So, by all concerned it was known to be > dangerous > territory. That there was a huge amount of harassment, they > themselves > felt harassed, and certainly ordinary people were harassed, > but what > they kept coming back to every time was, you’d probably > have been > dead. > >    You saw the fence built by the Indian > government at close quarters > – probably closer than you had planned (laughter, > audible) – I’d like > to know what you think of that. > >    I have been to many countries. I have > seen many borders. I know of > the Palestinian border, but outside of that this is > certainly the most > imposing, dominating, scary, border post that I have come > across. I’ve > gone across the Germany-Poland border, where you’ve had > surveillance > equipment, you’ve had people with night shooting guns, > but in none of > those situations have I seen anything that looks as scary > as this > particular fence. The fact that we are neighbouring > countries, the > fact that we are meant to have a friendly relationship, is > no way > signified by the presence of a physical entity of this > sort. > >    One of the things that also worries me is > that there are many > people who have friends, relatives, very close ones across > the border, > they have to travel one day to get to Rajshahi, apply for a > visa a > month in advance, the costs, the time, the preparation, all > of the > things that need to be done merely to be able to go across > to visit a > near one, simply cannot be condoned. > >    Considering that India has played such an > important role in the > liberation of Bangladesh, one would have expected a very, > very > different relationship between these two countries. > Considering that > we call ourselves members of SAARC [South Asian Association > for > Regional Cooperation], we’d expect far more cordial > relations between > ourselves. The fence, the fact that the BSF is so > trigger-happy, the > fact that 52 Bangladeshis have been gunned down in the last > 6 months, > the fact that it is a zone of terror for local people and > for our BDR, > speaks volumes of what it should not be about. > >    How high is the fence? > >    The gate itself, I’m trying to remember > now, large black gates, > double gates, about ten feet tall, 20 feet wide, I think. > But the > fence, the barbed wire extends above that, [what, it > extends above the > gate?] well, not above the gate itself, but it’s higher > than the gate, > stretching on both sides, as far as the eye can see. > >    It’s still quite early, but how do you > look back at the incident? > >    That’s a big question. My first concern > is that I have to finish my > story so I have to work. The story is incomplete, it needs > to be told, > not only the Brahmaputra story, but given this situation, > the border > story. I think it becomes even more important today, > knowing what I do > now, that we question the structures that makes such a > situation > possible. But, before anything else, I need to thank the > many, many > people who have done so much for me over this period of > time. > >    And again, I reflect upon this in a > different way. Obviously, I am > happy that I am out of danger. But I also reflect upon two > issues, > one, the fact that while I was detained and later released > by India, I > have actually been arrested by my own country in the course > of doing > what happens to be my duty, what is in the public interest. > I also > think it is important to reflect on the fact that at a > political > level, at an official level, there are these huge > differences between > our nations, but at a human level, at a personal level, > there exists > huge camaraderie. > >    Some of the people who did the most in > getting me released were my > colleagues, my journalist friends across the border in > India, and of > course, Mahasweta Devi. She had, as you know, inaugurated > CchobiMela > V, so, in a way this reflects how we as professionals, as > artists, as > individuals, have this camaraderie, have this openness, > have this > mutual respect, have this pull toward each other, which > does not seem > to be reflected by the people who govern our nations. > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the > city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net > with subscribe in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> From sen.jhuma at gmail.com Mon Jun 22 23:32:33 2009 From: sen.jhuma at gmail.com (Jhuma Sen) Date: Mon, 22 Jun 2009 23:32:33 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Dalit folk fusion music In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <85a3156a0906221102v1d77fbc9ub688f7c4c0e04610@mail.gmail.com> Thanks for sharing this. Lovely song! On Mon, Jun 22, 2009 at 4:39 PM, aryakrishnan ramakrishnan < aryakrish at gmail.com> wrote: > Dear all > > Found this interesting article from this artist from Keralam, who is > doing a series of writing on his music in this site. > The song in the site is a remix of an old dalit folk song. > http://thefishpond.in/2009/06/jukebox-diaries-1/ > > regards > Aryan > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > subscribe in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> From rakesh.rnbdj at gmail.com Tue Jun 23 05:31:44 2009 From: rakesh.rnbdj at gmail.com (Rakesh Iyer) Date: Tue, 23 Jun 2009 05:31:44 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Ultras target Amarnath yatra; explosive defused In-Reply-To: <355123.54971.qm@web39107.mail.mud.yahoo.com> References: <355123.54971.qm@web39107.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: Dear Malik jee As usual another cribbing gesture. Continue. It seems you forget that after most of the blasts which took place in the UPA regime, the people killed were mostly Hindus, and the media was on a frenzy to report about those blasts, the statements of the BJP spokespersons (BJP being a part of the Hindu chauvinist parivar) and the inefficiencies of the UPA govt. in detail. It's people like you and your equivalents in the Muslims who are the problem for this nation. You would want a western definition of secularism imposed in this nation rather than the Nehruvian Indian definition. Please stop following western concepts of nationhood, secularism and religion and live life Indian style. Hindutva is based exactly on this. And India needs to choose its own model, not blindly ape the West. Regards Rakesh From akmalik45 at yahoo.com Tue Jun 23 06:59:12 2009 From: akmalik45 at yahoo.com (A.K. Malik) Date: Mon, 22 Jun 2009 18:29:12 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Reader-list] Ultras target Amarnath yatra; explosive defused Message-ID: <305156.50974.qm@web39108.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Hi Rakesh, I am still of the opinion that Terrorists/Militants are Terrorists/Militants irrespective of their religion but my perception that more hue and cry is made if the victims are from a specified religion. Please note that this perception whether right or wrong is based on mainly media reports. I advise you as well to be decent in your comments as having a perception whether right or wrong differently than yours does not make a person problem for the nation. It is the people who are playing divisive policies for vote bank politics to treat people on appeasement basis. I continue to stand for equality whether being a majority religion person or a minority religion person.Those who have a problem even with this cannot be more nationalistic than those who hold this view. See the media reports for yourself Please. (A.K.MALIK) --- On Tue, 6/23/09, Rakesh Iyer wrote: > From: Rakesh Iyer > Subject: Re: [Reader-list] Ultras target Amarnath yatra; explosive defused > To: "A.K. Malik" > Cc: "Aditya Raj Kaul" , "Sarai List" > Date: Tuesday, June 23, 2009, 5:31 AM > Dear Malik jee > > As usual another cribbing gesture. Continue. It seems you > forget that after most of the blasts which took place in the > UPA regime, the people killed were mostly Hindus, and the > media was on a frenzy to report about those blasts, the > statements of the BJP spokespersons (BJP being a part of the > Hindu chauvinist parivar) and the inefficiencies of the UPA > govt. in detail. > > > It's people like you and your equivalents in the > Muslims who are the problem for this nation. You would want > a western definition of secularism imposed in this nation > rather than the Nehruvian Indian definition. Please stop > following western concepts of nationhood, secularism and > religion and live life Indian style. Hindutva is based > exactly on this. And India needs to choose its own model, > not blindly ape the West. > > > Regards > > Rakesh > > From rakesh.rnbdj at gmail.com Tue Jun 23 09:17:44 2009 From: rakesh.rnbdj at gmail.com (Rakesh Iyer) Date: Tue, 23 Jun 2009 09:17:44 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Ultras target Amarnath yatra; explosive defused In-Reply-To: <305156.50974.qm@web39108.mail.mud.yahoo.com> References: <305156.50974.qm@web39108.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: Dear Malik jee The definition of equality and secularism you and others on this forum are giving about, while highlighting things as 'biased reporting' or 'biased scheme implementation' etc., are actually based on Western definitions of equality and secularism. By western definition of secularism, biased reporting is not at all allowed. By this definition, the 'Cultural and Educational Rights' granted to minorities is certainly not secular. By this definition, giving reservations to Muslims in government or private jobs, or even for educational purposes is not secular. By this definition, the wearing of hijab or burqa by women is not secular. Also, such instances are also not instances of equality, but of non-equality or partial treatment being given to minorities (which favors them). And the reporting by media is another addition to this. In contrast, by the Nehruvian definition (to which others have added their bits I believe), secularism is very different in meaning from its western counterpart. By this, I mean that in the West, the idea of equality means that every person, weak or strong, should expect the same treatment from the state or its institutions. In India however, the realization is that the weak are so weak that certain measures have to be taken to bring them upto the level of the strong, but certainly the treatment in case of wrong doings committed by either of them should be the same. This is why the Constitutional and Educational Rights are provided. Similarly, the reservations are also asked for under the same principle by the minorities. And this is why we in India don't stop a woman from wearing a hijab or burqa. Now coming to your point. According to you, the media reporting is biased. My understanding is that this may not be completely true. Since you talk about Hindus getting killed, I believe that the incidents in Kashmir are generally not reported to a great deal in the rest of the nation, because the media perception is that violence for Kashmir is considered normal as far as the rest of the country is concerned. However, the blasts across different parts of the country are a good way to get TRP's, especially as they are unexpected, and nobody knows which city can get attacked, when, where and how. The Muslims getting killed in Kashmir also doesn't generally generate a great report, except that now cases are slowly coming to light. The reason I believe is that now the level of violence has gone down in Kashmir, at least due to the terrorists/militants/freedom fighters. Therefore, there is more focus. Also, since in the above mentioned case, nobody was killed, I don't think it was mentioned in that detail. Otherwise, things could have been different, even if Hindus were killed. I have another point to make here. I am not a nationalist. Moreover, I find it hilarious that you being a nationalist, support such moves which antagonize the minorities. You should be actually proud that reservations do take place in this nation, for this reservation has helped in improving the national unity. If the Dalits and the Scheduled tribes wouldn't have been provided reservations, more of them would have joined Naxalism, than what the no. is now. At least they can hope to be in political, educational and employment-based institutions. Isn't that itself a success to begin with? If your idea of equality would be implemented today, and reservations totally scrapped, large no. of people would protest, and beyond a point if they see no chances of their voices being heard, they would ask for a separate nation. May be separate nations of their own. Are you ready for more partitions? Are you ready to see an India broken down into Jat India, Dalit India, Tribal India, Muslim India, Brahman India and so on? That would be the death of Indian nationalism. The Indian idea of equality, I remember, Ashish Nandy once said, is that 'I won't scratch your back, you don't scratch mine'. This means that compromises would have to be inevitably made if India has to exist as a nation. Otherwise, the prophecy of Churchill will be proven true and India will break into 25,26 or even more no. of nations. Of course, the Shuddhas and the Anupams won't care about that, I know, and so won't I necessarily, except that the structure of that state would not be different from the current Indian one, except the size factor, and it still wont' solve the problems of the people. One last point. The Hindus constitute the majority of the population, so Hindu communalism is a greater danger and threat to the unity of the nation, rather than Muslim communalism. Of course, this does not mean communalism of one kind be allowed and not the other. Both have to be crushed. But more importantly, the former is a bigger threat for there are more Hindus. The dangers of that were seen in post-Godhra. Regards Rakesh From pawan.durani at gmail.com Tue Jun 23 09:22:26 2009 From: pawan.durani at gmail.com (Pawan Durani) Date: Tue, 23 Jun 2009 09:22:26 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Massacres - contd. Message-ID: <6b79f1a70906222052i17228779p9a3f40bfd64e6370@mail.gmail.com> ________________________________ KASHMIR SENTINEL July 1st-August 15th, 2000 ________________________________ Remnant Pandits face spectre of ethnic cleansing Two-thousand Pandits, who continue to remain in Kashmir valley have again been caught in the fire of ethnic-cleansing, resorted to by the Muslim fundamentalists. Close on the heels of Telwani massacre,on Feb 5, when three Pandits were killed, the separatists attacked a Pandit family at Brari-Angan. In the renewed campaign of ethnic-cleansing, the separatists had asked through posters and threatening calls, all the non-Muslim minorities to leave Kashmir by March 28. As the sequence of events indicates the separatists had chosen Brari Angan-Achbal belt for this renewed campaign. On the holy festival of Shivratri a group of twelve terrorists appeared at the houe of Brij Nath at Brari Angan, Achabal and kidnapped him. He was taken to a temple and killed there. Another version said he was done to death in a nearby jungle. Brij Nath’s family had trusted his neighbours and b did not migrate in 1990. He was an employee of the State Irrigation deprtment. The same night, the militants attacked a police post, guarding 6 Pandit families at Pethbugh, near Dyalgam in Anantag. Unidentified gunmen fired indiscriminately upon the houses of Pandits. Lalitashorie, wife of TN Raina was killed, while her husband was injured critically. Gunmen, as usual escaped. These three attacks and the latest massacre of Sikhs at Chatti Singhpora have shaked remnant Pandits out of complacency. Since then there has been a steady trickle of these people to Jammu. First to arrive were Pandit families from Telwani and Chandrigam in the first week of February. On February 22, four Pandit families from village Fatehpura reached Jammu. One, Bansi Lal told mediamen that they have been forced to migrate after receiving threatening calls from militants. He said, "we were feeling insecure and helpless due to inadequate security arrangements made by the government in the matter". The families said Telvani massacre jolted them and they left their places to preserve dignity and honour. Bansi Lal claimed, "we were harassed and lived in fear. We were surrounded by fear and life was full of agony". Another group of Pandits, 4 families with 14 members, including 9 women from Akoora (where three families have stayed back) boarded Jammu-bound vehicles under tight-police protection, after receiving threatening calls. They reached Jammu on March 12. Four more families from Noorpora, Traal fled in wee hours of March 10. Santosh Raina told the media that recent killings of Kashmiri Pandits had made them feel insecure. "We loaded our belongings in the truck a night before and asked the driver to wait at Awantipora on the national highway. Next morning, we pretended as if we were going to Srinagar". Santosh’s husband ran a grocery shop in the village, while her two daughters taught at a local private school. Her brother-in-law Triloki Nath, who had migrated to Jammu in 1991 had been imploring them to come but they stayed back. About not informing her neighbours, Santosh said, "It was not safe to confide in anybody. The killing of four Pandits in Telwani village was a warning". As Santosh’s sister-in-law belongs to village Pethbugh, where Lalitashorie was killed, insecurity grew stronger. She said though they were all the time feling insecure, her father-in-law Ramchander Raina was adamant not to leave the place of his ancestors. He died about six months back. Presently there are twelve houses of Kashmiri Pandits in Noorpora but most of them are posted in Srinagar, with majority of their family members in Jammu. Akoora Pandit families said that the militants had issued a deadline for all the minorities to leave the Valley by March 29 or face consequences. Infact, posters had appeared in some villages and even in Anantnag town. Pethbug incident made them believe that the warning could not be taken non-seriously. The families which migrated from Akoora included those of TN Raina (3 membrs), Bihari Lal Raina (5 members), Kanya Lal Dhar (3 members) Ramesh Kumar Raina (2 members), TN Raina (4 members), Surinder Kumar Bhat (4 members), Moti Lal Koul (5 members). Avtar Krishan Dhar, a government teacher, alongwith his brother’s family migrated to Jammu on March 14. He had to abandon his house in Pethbug village on March 5, when terrorists killed Lalitashorie. Lalitashorie’s husband and two children have also left their native village. TN Raina’s younger brothers and mother had migrated earlier. Rueing his decison to stay back, TN Raina said "All of them have been pressing me hard to come to Jammu. But the difficulty my brother, Maharaj Krishan had to face in getting himself registered as a migrant in 1993, discouraged me from leaving Kashmir earlier". Following the massacre at Chatti-Singhpora, three Pandit families of Prem Nath Bhat, Vishnath Bhat and Rattan Lal Bhat migrated from Nowgam, Acchabal on April 2. Meanwhile, Armymen foiled an attempt of separatists to target four Pandit families at Wusan, Ganderbal. They after intercepting a message, asked the families to move to their camp for protection. On April 5, scores of Pandit Accountant General office employees had a narrow escape, when the terrorists hurled a grenade on vehicle carrying them when it was on way to office. At Budshah Chowk at 10:00 AM, a grenade missed the target and exploded on road side causing injuries to two civilians. This is the second attack on AG employees during the decade-long terrorist violence in the Valley. The employees have threatened to force closure of office in case authorities failed to provide adequate security to them. They blamed their management for callousness in not prevailing upon the security authorities for ensuring proper security. For the past two months the AG employees have been receiving threatening calls. Despite warnings by the security officials, their bus was not permitted to move via high-security Gupkar zone. While the attacks on the last outposts of minorities continue leading to the exodus of remnant Pandits, both the state and Central government have been making ‘Proforma’ statements about the return and rehabilitation of Kashmiri Hindus (see Box0. In the state Assembly, upper house, the BJP leader, Daya Krishan Kotwal embarrassed the government by asking how many Kashmir migrant families had been sent back so far after the NC government came to power. He also demanded setting up of a committee to look after the safety of the Kashmiri Pandit properties. From pawan.durani at gmail.com Tue Jun 23 09:30:52 2009 From: pawan.durani at gmail.com (Pawan Durani) Date: Tue, 23 Jun 2009 09:30:52 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Dousing the Fires of Jihad in Pakistan Message-ID: <6b79f1a70906222100t18a1ad60s71f07bbb35d90c3a@mail.gmail.com> Source: May 2009 issue of Kashmir Sentinel FOCUS Dousing the Fires of Jihad in Pakistan By Dr. Ajay Chrungoo THE new government in USA lead by President  Obama has claimed to create a new regime of thinking to fight Islamic terrorism. The focus is gradually shifting from Iraq to Pakistan which is being gradually recognised as the epicentre of global terrorism. Adrian Leve and Catherine Scott-Clark in their work 'Deception' have reflected the view now shared by a large corpus of experts on international politics and terrorism when they say, “when politicians in London and Washington describe Musharraf as a key ally in the war on terror, what they really mean is that he is their only Islamic ally in the region. So with the White House and 10 Downing Street unable to countenance an alternative, Musharaff's Pakistan remains at the epicentre of terror, a disingenuous regime with its hands on the nuclear tiller". The apprehensions in India that Brak Obama links the improvement in situation in Afghanistan and Pakistan to the solution of Kashmir problem have not died. But US governments categorical advice articulated by Obama himself that India is not a threat to Pakistan and that Pakistan needs to change its views about India creates a space for a new thinking on the region. For the first time at least from a very optimistic and theoretical point of view one can venture to debate now that the problem of Pakistan is the nature of Pakistan itself. Unless this nature undergoes a transformation the motor which drives the polity in Pakistan to virulent anti-Americanism, compulsive hatred for India and voluntary embracing of Jihad, cannot to turned off. To think that Obama meant this when he urged Pakistan to change its outlook with regard to India is perhaps reading to much between and into the lines. The release of 1.5 billion dollars of aid to Pakistan at this juncture once again pin points to the fact that USA has not as yet shunned the suicidal expediency with regard to Pakistan which has plagued its outlook to contain the global Islamic stridency and violence.  A former advisor to Bush Regime on weapons of Mass Distruction who lead researches tracking Pakistan's nuclear progress from its inception categorically states," Pakistan is top of the list. It is the number one threat to the world at this moment in time. If it all goes off, a nuclear bomb in a US or European city. I am sure we will find ourselves looking in Pakistan's direction." Without generating a legitimate and vigorous introspection into the vital and important components of the polity in Pakistan, the financial bailout by USA only helps to nourish the vicious cycle of duplicity, deceit and deception which the Pakistani state has practised. To believe that the Pakistan Government and army have shunned ambivalence and duplicity and are rallying round to decisively counter radical Islam and its military might is very premature. To convey that the consent and compliance of Pakistani state in the war against Al Qaeda, Taliban and Muslim international is critical to US lead war on terror is fraught with the same consequences as has been the patronising of the Zia-ul-Haq regime and eventually Pervez Musharraf. How many time did President Bush describe Pervez Musharraf as 'his best friend' and the most important 'ally' in the war against terror. These dictators always thought that the US alliance with Pakistan was more critical than the concerns of USA on nuclear proliferation and the imperatives of global war on terror. Many believe that USA is fully entrenched in Pakistan, has defanged the nuclear smuggling network run by notorious KRL from Kahuta and has taken control of at least that commond centres of the Nuclear Bomb possessed by Pakistan. A few examples will suffice to make us re-examine our premises. Pakistani military continued its nuclear procurements even after the smashing of the network of Dr Qader Khan. While Musharraf was negotiating AQ Khan's expulsions and eventual house arrest with Bush in New York, Pakistani Military establishment was continuing with the procurement of material related to nuclear proliferation. Asher Karni of Top-Cape Technology, a Captown firm that imported US electronic goods to South Africa, was asked by a Islamabad based firm which was only a front for Pakistani military, to procure thirty-six US manufactured oscilloscopes for Pakistan, costing $1.3 million Bush refused to raise the issue with Musharraf at Camp David on 24 June 2003. Three days later the South African company confirmed Islamabad that they had procured spark gaps in the US at $950 per piece. The first batch of sixty-six spark gaps arrived in South Africa on 8 Oct, 2004. That very day Richard Armitage and General Pervez Musharraf in Islamabad were having a discussion to finalise how to settle the A.Q Khan issue. On October 21,2003 Humayun Khan took the delivery of the first batch of spark gaps in Pakistan. The shipment was useless because customs agents and anti proliferation sleuths had switched the spark gaps for harmless components keeping the whole affair out of Musharraf's knowledge. The entire affair came to court in March 2005 in USA. Intriguingly the US State Department had closed down many requests to travel to Pakistan to interview Humayun Khan, who if extradiled and found guilty could have been jailed. It was openly reported that 'Suddenly the US government was affraid of offending Pakistan, its partner in war on terror," During Zia-ul-Haq's time also the US government had ambushed court cases, sealed them and those accused in smuggling equipment and material related to nuclear proliferation were allowed to leave USA. General Musharraf took over the Khan's mill manufacturing nuclear components immediately after he had made himself President, restructuring it and transforming it into a world class facility with extraordinary input. In 2005 Lt. General Abdul Qayum Khan, the chairman of the mill said, "It was through Musharraf's daring, honest and visionary leadership that we have seized the moment". What did he mean was explained candidly by General KM Arif who had run the nuclear programme. He said about the nuclear business and the People's Steel Mill created by Dr Qader Khan as, "We have labs and the industry to rival the west. Once we sulked around. Now Pakistan is producing high-frequency invertors. They used to come from the UK and now we are selling them ourselves. Maraging  steel too. Once we struggled but now finally we are manufacturing it at People's Steel Mill and exporting it. It is better than you can get outside". Maraging Steel is used in high quality centrifuges used in enrichment of uranium. For Pakistan state to untemalise the view that USA will overlook its national interests to accommodate Pakistan is not a wishful state of mind the ground. Proliferation experts have almost confirmed that Pakistan has continued to sell nuclear technology even after Musharraf became the best friend of Bush. Nobody has taken notice of the release of Dr Qader Khan from house arrest by the Pakistani courts under the supervision of Zardari government which has been having turbulent times and which cannot survive without the American support. Release of Khan is an affront which USA has swallowed as it has done many times in past to preserve its relation with Pakistan. During the uncertainty in Pakistan caused by the lawyers long march the former Prime Minister of Pakistan Nawaz Sharief said in an interview to an Indian channel that, "I am not worried about happenings in Swat. I am worried about what is happening in Baluchistan." The implications of the statement were ignored. The statement basically reflected the dominant view in Pakistan that does not view Isalmisation and consequent radicalisation as a threat to National Unity and progress but sees the repressed subnational urges as the threat to Pakistan. To see army operations in certain parts of Pakistan as a corrective applied by the Pakistan state to change itself is erroneous and the new US regime is perhaps committing this error. The army operations against Taliban and non-state actors is in essence a vicious struggle for control of power. In essence Pakistani army is seeking only to tame the non-state actors so that they agree to work within the discipline and parameters created by Pakistani  state more specifically the Pakistan Army. The Taliban and other Non State actors on the othre hand are exerting the pressures on Pakistani army to conform to the dictates of Pan Islamic vision and act as its sword arm. If Pakistani Army wins it will seek to play the determining role not only as a frontline Muslim state but also as a nuclear Muslim state to shape the politics which will be none other than Islamic. If Taliban and Al Qaeda win the will of Pakistani army, will be subassumed into their will. Both ways the space for egalitarian and moderate politics is either obliterated or exists only as a mirage. US has been chasing this mirage to its own determinant. When Brak Obama says Pakistan has to change its outlook with regard to India does it mean a fundamental change in outlook or is it only diplomatic assurance to Pakistan that India has been forewarned of any misadventure while Pakistani Army is grappling with its internal menace. If Brak Obama means a fundamental change then we will see restructuring and recasting of international debate in Pakistan. Pakistan in such a scenario will have to cease to be a Muslim pocket created in post War period as a twin brother of Israel to contain or divide Asia. To help Pakistan to recast its outlook means changing its character. Pakistan has to emerge as a country where pluralism takes roots on a principal of equality which cannot happen so far political Islam takes precedence in its National Vision. Pakistan even if it wishes to emerge as a polity on the principal of equality, cannot do so unless it delinks comprehensively from Kashmir. Kashmir is the cardinal expression of Pakistan being a frontline Muslim state for the expansion of Muslims power towards east. So Kashmir acts as a motor to drives the mills of Jihad. Any solution to Kashmir which palacates Jihad will never help in dousing its fires.It well only act as its fuel for expanding to new frontiers. From bangalorefilmsociety at gmail.com Tue Jun 23 10:27:32 2009 From: bangalorefilmsociety at gmail.com (Bangalore Film Society ,) Date: Tue, 23 Jun 2009 10:27:32 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Daughters of Fire Film Festival (27,28) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: *Dear Friend,* ** *We are very happy to invite you to Daughters of Fire - a two day film festival on violence against women and women’s resistance to it followed by discussions. * *The festival is being organised by Vimochana and the Asian Women’s Human rights Council (AWHRC) in collaboration with the Bangalore Film Society and Alliance Francaise de Bangalore on 27 and 28 June, 2009 from 10.00am to 8.00pm at the Alliance Francaise, 108, ThimmaiahRoad, Vasanthnagar, Bangalore 560052. * *It is being held against the backdrop of the India Court of Women on Dowry and Related Forms of Violence to be organised by Vimochana and AWHRC in partnership with several women’s groups on July 27-29, 2009. The Court is an attempt to bring **the phenomena of dowry violence that has been made invisible, normal and routine back to the centre of public consciousness and conscience. **For details of the Court, please contact Vimochana at the address given in the letter head.* *The films therefore will reflect on the nature of violence particularly against women, **the institution of marriage and the accompanying violence and the burden of being born a girl. It will also look at how women respond and resist this violence both at an individual and collective level, the different notions of justice that exist in different cultures and communities. * ** ***We look forward very much to seeing you at the festival**.* * With regards,* ** *Shakun/Kalpana George Kutty A L* *For Vimochana Bangalore Film Society* ** *For further information; contact: Siddharth: 9886213516* ** *For schedule and synopsis of films, please visit http://blogbfs.blogspot.com* From rajen786uppinangady at gmail.com Tue Jun 23 12:28:56 2009 From: rajen786uppinangady at gmail.com (Rajendra Bhat Uppinangadi) Date: Tue, 23 Jun 2009 12:28:56 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Detained in India, arrested in Bangladesh In-Reply-To: <55371.26252.qm@web39103.mail.mud.yahoo.com> References: <55371.26252.qm@web39103.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <7271ec560906222358x2ef5216aj71616822c40df7ff@mail.gmail.com> Dear all, is it free for all if one is a photo journalist, can he not be a "professional" mercenary who has specific profession of being spying for his adopted nations, ? It is not rare nor strange when professional "journalists" have been on spying missions in north Korea, Russia or in US and Uk or host of other nations. Some narrations are indicative of complicity of the professional in his post.The statements where he is doubtful of his photoframes, snaps which are illegal point to something more sinister.? These two paragraphs are enough to raise the doubt of the great work on river Brahmaputhra.! "I’d been taking pictures along the way. I’d been shooting with a wide angle lens. I was pretty certain that my wide angle shots, my landscape photos etc, would have segments of the space I was going through, which I now realised was illegal. I didn’t want to get caught with these pictures, so I worked out how to remove this incriminating evidence." "The gate itself, I’m trying to remember now, large black gates, double gates, about ten feet tall, 20 feet wide, I think. But the fence, the barbed wire extends above that, [what, it extends above the gate?] well, not above the gate itself, but it’s higher than the gate, stretching on both sides, as far as the eye can see. It’s still quite early, but how do you look back at the incident? That’s a big question. My first concern is that I have to finish my story so I have to work. The story is incomplete, it needs to be told, not only the Brahmaputra story, but given this situation, the border story. I think it becomes even more important today, knowing what I do now, that we question the structures that makes such a situation possible. But, before anything else, I need to thank the many, many people who have done so much for me over this period of time." Being journalist, crime does pay.? On Mon, Jun 22, 2009 at 10:49 PM, A.K. Malik wrote: > > Hi, > The entire episode seems Straight from our Bollywood.Unable to express > views whom to blame especially the part where he was called to Indian > territory.BSF jawans?? > > (A.K.MALIK) > > > --- On Mon, 6/22/09, Harsh Kapoor wrote: > > > From: Harsh Kapoor > > Subject: [Reader-list] Detained in India, arrested in Bangladesh > > To: "sarai list" > > Date: Monday, June 22, 2009, 4:41 AM > > New Age, 22 June 2009 > > > > Detained in India, arrested in Bangladesh > > > > Shahidul Alam in an interview with Rahnuma Ahmed > > > > > > Please tell us about your project and why you were detained > > by the > > Indian Border Security Force. > > > > I started the Brahmaputra project in the > > late 1990s. It’s an > > incredible river that goes from Tibet through Arunachal and > > Assam in > > India, into Bangladesh and all the way into the Bay of > > Bengal. In the > > early part of the project I’d done some video footage in > > Tibet and > > India, but not any in Bangladesh. We at Drik felt that we > > should try > > and produce a film, so my colleagues in the audiovisual > > department, > > Sumeru Mukhopadhyay and Abul Kasem, and I went off to > > Nijhum Deep in > > the south, in the Bay of Bengal on 11th June for 3 days. > > > > We returned to Dhaka, then went to > > Rowmari on the 15th to > > photograph the section of the river where it crosses from > > India to > > Bangladesh. We drove up to Chilmari, went by boat to the > > Rowmari side, > > found a guesthouse. It was late afternoon, and we thought > > we should go > > out on a recce. As photographers we had obviously cameras, > > and I had a > > video camera with me. > > > > As it often happens in villages, > > distances are not the same as we > > measure it in the city, so whenever we asked people where > > it was, > > they’d say, ‘just out there’, ‘a little bit > > further’, ‘ten more > > minutes...’ We ended up travelling quite a long way, by > > van, a little > > by boat, then we walked through market places, by > > people’s homes, with > > cameras dangling on either side, three strangers, creating > > a lot of > > attention. > > > > At one point we were walking across some > > paddy fields, and an > > elderly farmer stopped me and said, this is a difficult way > > to go, why > > don’t you go on to the road which is nearby. This was a > > clay track > > road, very overgrown, not much of a road, but soon after I > > got on to > > this road armed BSF (Indian Border Security Force) people > > from the > > other side of the fence beckoned me. I knew this was a > > dangerous > > situation. I knew that 52 Bangladeshis had been gunned down > > by the BSF > > during the last 6 months. I was possibly only 50 yards away > > – well > > within their shooting range. It wasn’t sensible to do > > anything other > > than comply. So, I walked calmly towards them, making plans > > about how > > I should proceed. > > > > As I had sort of expected when I got > > close to the gate, they opened > > the gate, several of them ran out and literally dragged me > > inside. And > > locked the gate. I was well and truly within India. > > > > You mean there were no border signposts. > > > > No, there was absolutely no sign > > mentioning territory, or that we > > were crossing into restricted zone, whether it was no > > man’s land or > > anything else. These were paddy fields we were walking > > across. When I > > got onto this dirt track, there was still no sign. One > > could see there > > was the Indian border far away, one could certainly see the > > fence. And > > it was soon after I got onto the dirt track that the BSF > > beckoned me. > > But before that, there’d been absolutely no indication > > that we were > > outside anywhere of Bangladesh. > > > > But what about BDR soldiers? > > > > No, none. Certainly, we’d expected > > there to be BDR jawans and other > > people, or at least some sort of an indication near the > > border, but > > there weren’t any. > > > > After the BSF pulled you into their > > gates, what happened? Did they > > assault you? > > > > No. They came out and grabbed me, and > > dragged me in. They (how many > > were they?) about 5 or 6, there were more inside, they were > > a bit > > rough in dragging me in but I wouldn’t say I was > > assaulted. > > > > As a seasoned photojournalist, how did > > you strategise, to get out > > of this situation? > > > > Well, since I was in their firing range > > what was most important was > > to stay alive. Once inside, there was the question of > > avoiding > > physical violence. I felt I would be much safer in the > > hands of senior > > officers than in the hands of jawans, trigger-happy jawans > > in > > particular. Knowing the history between the BSF and > > Bangladeshis, I > > felt that presenting myself as a Bangladeshi was going to > > be suicidal. > > > > I made the decision that I was going to > > be a foreign photographer, > > out on an assignment. I decided I would speak only in > > English. I did > > have Bangladeshi identity with me which I didn’t want to > > show. I also > > had a UK driver’s license, so it made sense for me to be > > British. I > > mentioned National Geographic because that was a known name > > and even > > out here the jawans might have heard of it. I also > > calculated that > > bringing in a US component could give me some sort of > > insularity, > > given the power of the US, and the fact that India was its > > close ally. > > As for the National Geographic, I am on their Advisory > > Board. I give a > > lecture there every year, I’m involved in many of their > > seminars so I > > do have a long relationship with the organisation but I > > wasn’t on > > assignment for them. > > > > My initial attempt at convincing them > > that I was a foreigner with > > British and US connections was merely power play. I was > > trying to make > > sure the jawans felt I wasn’t some Bangladeshi they could > > beat up and > > kill, but someone from far away, who had better > > connections. And > > frankly, I was using the race and class card. > > > > What happened after that? > > > > Well, talk of the National Geographic, of > > being British, shook them > > a little bit. Of course, I pretended I didn’t speak > > Bangla or Hindi. I > > heard them talking amongst each other, saying that perhaps > > it wasn’t > > such a good idea to take a foreigner, perhaps they should > > let him go. > > > > I decided to push my luck further. I > > said, unless you let me speak > > to my National Geographic colleagues they might report to > > head office. > > Then I rang you, my partner, and I spoke to you in my best > > British > > accent. I remember it took you a little while since we > > don’t speak to > > each other in English, but you quickly twigged. More for > > the audience > > than for anyone else, I fairly loudly told you to inform > > the prime > > minister, the home minister, the BDR people, the BSF head, > > etc. I > > pulled names out of my hat willy-nilly, but making sure > > they were > > important-sounding names, so that that these jawans > > recognised that I > > was a very important person, with important connections. > > > > How were you treated by BSF once they > > knew that you were a big-shot > > photographer? > > > > Once the officers arrived, I felt, I was > > more in control. They > > wanted to look at my identity card, asked for my address. > > Soon, the > > officer, a Mr PK Roy, a Bengali, was convinced that I was > > not an > > ordinary Bangladeshi but probably an important foreign > > photographer. > > Their attitude began to change. He asked the jawans to get > > me a cup of > > tea. > > > > Later, he got a phone call, from > > obviously a senior person on his > > side, who presumably told him that I should be released, > > that I should > > be taken good care of. Now, it was a question of the > > information > > percolating down to the lower levels of command, and > > getting a written > > confirmation from his immediate superiors before he could > > release me. > > > > Much later, sweets were bought from the > > market. The tone of the > > conversation, and the dynamics, changed completely. But, as > > it was > > getting dark, they were convinced no handover would take > > place at > > night. I was taken to a guesthouse nearby, into a room, > > with a > > television, a telephone with a handle, a bed, an attached > > bathroom. > > Very clean, very pleasant place, and given dinner. Mr PK > > Roy was very > > concerned that I was made to feel looked after. I spoke to > > his > > commander who was extremely polite, apologised for the > > situation, and > > said that the BDR had been informed. I would be handed over > > to the > > BDR, as soon as communication took place. I thanked him, > > and assured > > him that I was being well looked after. It was a very > > civil > > conversation. > > > > What were your concerns then, as a > > photographer? > > > > I’d been taking pictures along the way. > > I’d been shooting with a > > wide angle lens. I was pretty certain that my wide angle > > shots, my > > landscape photos etc, would have segments of the space I > > was going > > through, which I now realised was illegal. I didn’t want > > to get caught > > with these pictures, so I worked out how to remove this > > incriminating > > evidence. > > > > What happened after you were handed over? > > It was at 11:15, right? > > > > Yes, around then. It was pitch dark, > > dense shrubbery, bad roads. We > > came to a point where Mr PK Roy said this is where the sign > > is [Indian > > no man’s land begins]. So I said, well, please show me > > the sign. They > > looked around, but couldn’t find it. They apologised and > > said, please > > believe us, it’s here, we can’t find it right now. Then > > they met the > > BDR people, again, a very civil meeting. The BSF produced a > > document > > for the BDR to sign, when I was handed over. > > > > Once the Indians left, the BDR subedar > > got a phone call from his > > commanding officer. He spoke to me then, and initially > > accused me, > > apni lukie gecchen, you sneaked into this place. I strongly > > objected > > because we’d come in broad daylight, three of us, we had > > equipment, we > > had asked people for directions. He then changed his tack. > > He said > > there were some formalities which I had to go through, > > papers I needed > > to sign. Of course, I agreed. > > > > And did you learn from the Kurigram BDR, > > how they came to know of > > your detention by the BSF? Was it locally, or from Dhaka? > > > > No, I found out later from conversations, > > they’d received the > > information from Dhaka. In fact, the subedar was very > > worried about > > this. When the BDR director general had rung from Dhaka, he > > had > > specific information about where I was. But the local-level > > BDR hadn’t > > a clue. > > > > And why do you think those at the > > local-level didn’t know? > > > > I was told about this later. I was > > chatting to them and they said, > > we’d normally have known. It wouldn’t have occurred but > > we had some > > VIP guests. We had been busy entertaining the VIPs. > > > > And after that...? > > > > Initially, we went to the BDR camp, three > > of us on a motorcycle, > > miles away from where this incident took place. They > > offered me food > > which had apparently been prepared for the VIP guests so it > > was good > > food. They kept saying another 5-10 minutes, but after a > > long time, I > > said look, what’s going on here, I want to get back. We > > eventually > > started walking but instead of taking me to the guesthouse, > > they took > > me to the thana. Another long wait, close conversations > > between BDR > > personnel and police. At one stage, I said, I’m very > > appreciative that > > you’ve got me out of India. But I’m now a citizen in my > > own country, > > you have no right to keep me here unless you’re arresting > > me for > > something. I got up to walk away and that’s when I > > realised they > > weren’t going to let me leave the place. By then I learnt > > from local > > people who had come to the thana that the BDR was about to > > file a case > > against me. At this stage I rang you again, this was about > > 2:30/3:00 > > in the morning. Shortly after this, they confiscated my > > cameras, and > > my phone. I no longer had direct access to anyone. > > > > So, why did the Bangladesh government > > file a case against you? > > > > It’s conjecture, of course. The local > > BDR were extremely worried > > about the predicament they were in. The fact that they had > > no > > knowledge of this incident, that the border had been > > completely > > un-manned, that there was no BDR person in sight, that they > > didn’t > > know about it even after the local people had gotten to > > know. It left > > them with egg on their face. And again, the original > > accusation by the > > colonel suggested that there was an attempt to put the > > blame and onus > > upon us, that we had sneaked into this place, which was > > clearly not > > true. So, there was huge negligence on the part of the BDR, > > and I > > suspect they needed some sort of a diversionary tactic to > > cover up for > > their omission. > > > > Did your bail application and the court > > proceedings go through smoothly? > > > > Yes, everyone was very cooperative. I was > > also granted permission > > to travel abroad. I am scheduled for an exclusive photo > > shoot with > > Nelson Mandela, and there are other important assignments > > that I > > wouldn’t like to miss, yes, things went very well. Most > > Kurigram > > lawyers and journalists were they. They rallied around me. > > > > If you were not who you are, what could > > have happened? > > > > Possibly, the worst. The BDR men > > themselves told me that I’d done a > > very wise thing by walking up to them, not attempting to > > run, or doing > > anything silly. They said they were scared to go to these > > places. > > That, sometimes, criminals take shelter from the police by > > going to > > these regions because they know that the police are scared > > of > > venturing there. So, by all concerned it was known to be > > dangerous > > territory. That there was a huge amount of harassment, they > > themselves > > felt harassed, and certainly ordinary people were harassed, > > but what > > they kept coming back to every time was, you’d probably > > have been > > dead. > > > > You saw the fence built by the Indian > > government at close quarters > > – probably closer than you had planned (laughter, > > audible) – I’d like > > to know what you think of that. > > > > I have been to many countries. I have > > seen many borders. I know of > > the Palestinian border, but outside of that this is > > certainly the most > > imposing, dominating, scary, border post that I have come > > across. I’ve > > gone across the Germany-Poland border, where you’ve had > > surveillance > > equipment, you’ve had people with night shooting guns, > > but in none of > > those situations have I seen anything that looks as scary > > as this > > particular fence. The fact that we are neighbouring > > countries, the > > fact that we are meant to have a friendly relationship, is > > no way > > signified by the presence of a physical entity of this > > sort. > > > > One of the things that also worries me is > > that there are many > > people who have friends, relatives, very close ones across > > the border, > > they have to travel one day to get to Rajshahi, apply for a > > visa a > > month in advance, the costs, the time, the preparation, all > > of the > > things that need to be done merely to be able to go across > > to visit a > > near one, simply cannot be condoned. > > > > Considering that India has played such an > > important role in the > > liberation of Bangladesh, one would have expected a very, > > very > > different relationship between these two countries. > > Considering that > > we call ourselves members of SAARC [South Asian Association > > for > > Regional Cooperation], we’d expect far more cordial > > relations between > > ourselves. The fence, the fact that the BSF is so > > trigger-happy, the > > fact that 52 Bangladeshis have been gunned down in the last > > 6 months, > > the fact that it is a zone of terror for local people and > > for our BDR, > > speaks volumes of what it should not be about. > > > > How high is the fence? > > > > The gate itself, I’m trying to remember > > now, large black gates, > > double gates, about ten feet tall, 20 feet wide, I think. > > But the > > fence, the barbed wire extends above that, [what, it > > extends above the > > gate?] well, not above the gate itself, but it’s higher > > than the gate, > > stretching on both sides, as far as the eye can see. > > > > It’s still quite early, but how do you > > look back at the incident? > > > > That’s a big question. My first concern > > is that I have to finish my > > story so I have to work. The story is incomplete, it needs > > to be told, > > not only the Brahmaputra story, but given this situation, > > the border > > story. I think it becomes even more important today, > > knowing what I do > > now, that we question the structures that makes such a > > situation > > possible. But, before anything else, I need to thank the > > many, many > > people who have done so much for me over this period of > > time. > > > > And again, I reflect upon this in a > > different way. Obviously, I am > > happy that I am out of danger. But I also reflect upon two > > issues, > > one, the fact that while I was detained and later released > > by India, I > > have actually been arrested by my own country in the course > > of doing > > what happens to be my duty, what is in the public interest. > > I also > > think it is important to reflect on the fact that at a > > political > > level, at an official level, there are these huge > > differences between > > our nations, but at a human level, at a personal level, > > there exists > > huge camaraderie. > > > > Some of the people who did the most in > > getting me released were my > > colleagues, my journalist friends across the border in > > India, and of > > course, Mahasweta Devi. She had, as you know, inaugurated > > CchobiMela > > V, so, in a way this reflects how we as professionals, as > > artists, as > > individuals, have this camaraderie, have this openness, > > have this > > mutual respect, have this pull toward each other, which > > does not seem > > to be reflected by the people who govern our nations. > > _________________________________________ > > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the > > city. > > Critiques & Collaborations > > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net > > with subscribe in the subject header. > > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > > List archive: > > > > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > subscribe in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: -- Rajen. From sub_sengupta at yahoo.co.in Tue Jun 23 14:28:39 2009 From: sub_sengupta at yahoo.co.in (subhrodip sengupta) Date: Tue, 23 Jun 2009 14:28:39 +0530 (IST) Subject: [Reader-list] Lalgarh does not exist In-Reply-To: <750947.91537.qm@web112601.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> References: <750947.91537.qm@web112601.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <665387.19338.qm@web94708.mail.in2.yahoo.com> I had lost the urge to speak on this issue. Simply because of the blatant take by the mainstream intellectuals and media. I never got access to what was written in the pamphlets. Let me talk a little before I take my stand. The fact that there was a mass displacement of tribals and other residents just before and during the onslaught was displayed only as a passe, putting the blame on a sudden terror created by the 'Maoists'. Strangely a popular leader claiming to be a maoist seemed less to be one. The blatant charge og lathis, breaking of homes of innocent unarmed, not trained in combatics, villagers by lathi and baton armed forces seemed blatant to me but too meek to be exposed by the media. And the police minister just warned the personnel not to follow or mess up with the cops now forces. What was being done to these crpf personnel suffering sun-strokes seemed to me a bit funny and lacking foresight and planning. Who are the ultras involved, and what about the village committee. Everyone saw the burning of CPM offices and 'restriction of police forces'. Even I did. The co-rrelation with what the CPM has being do-ing with trinamaul supporters even in police custody was unseen. The fact that there exists certain CPM dominated villages where Media or outsiders are 'not allowed' is ignored. How can ever a ruling party be banned. Hopefully the allegations of torture rape and murder can be dodged by putting experienced, polished commandants as a mask and showing the plight of the forces and Heroes on Other. Lalgarh has been reclaimed by coming in of CPM party workers getting generous doles from government and fleeing protestors and numerous other tribals. At least media was allowed. During and after the operation no Social workers or Human Right Activists were dissuaded. How can the logic of the state be weakened? Hahahaha. With the centre the Trinamaul too took a tailspin, and npw from her home with security people (I hope the can, Kill for her defence), Didi is urging for peace. And das rule of the state was re-inforced? Veerappan, Tiger, Lalgarh. Who says a group of few people neither trined in Martial arts, nor possessing Weapons of mass destruction can overpower a large technically equipped Elite force? Every time I see commoners getting lathi-charged an incident where Jaats were driving of Chandigarh police comes into my mind, But pretty long ago. Audience(ok for clarification, of media channels like Frills and Trills!)Bad tamasha without quality fight.. LAlgarh was definitely one of them and the present pleasent experiences of the forces determined to cath the guerillas are another mockery. But ehat the people need today, is also an assurance. Of safety, of more rational police force. With my interactions with the people of the forces, unless excessive reforms, Police reforms withdrawal of immunity of state and Special Forces is made the I see most security forces more as a problem, with due regards to the Soldiers, especially the lower tier which appears problematic. Every time there is some dis satisfaction even with the Govt, wanna go back home, Do some Lafra with PUblic. True with Cisf as well. I had been rather lucky to avoid a 'friction', thats what the INA guys call it, for my instictive reaction is at times a fight not staying back requesting and then filing a Complaint of no good. Where disciplining civilians, did we know that recently the RPF and the RPSF had a huge 'Friction' at Delhi station? Naaah, the media is too busy waiting out of P.S. in this Sultry summer on such issues. There are talks of development all round for this 'Semi-Arid' lands. God knows who has his eyes on it. Tamasha will continue, in Assansol, eveywhere, as long as Parties do not stop keeping Goons and people do not resist trying to favour just for a job the'd obviously never get. Why lalgarh at leat till next Vidhan Sabha Election and immidiately after that in West Bengal is there any solace? Anyways I do not stay there, so not concerned.Let Budhdha babu answer. . . . And time as to who had his eyes on this Huge Expenditure, some kind of drill for army ok, but is there any business house too? Indeed, too much of Nasty things are goin on. The students of Humanities in WB (FUTURE, i guess) get tainted by the same medioricy and Hyppocritic souls. God Save our Souls! ________________________________ From: cashmeeri To: Sarai Sent: Monday, 22 June, 2009 7:43:01 PM Subject: [Reader-list] Lalgarh does not exist Discomfort in ideological terrains to be negotiated over and negotiated.   Lalgarh does not exist.       _________________________________________ reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. Critiques & Collaborations To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with subscribe in the subject header.. To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> Love Cricket? Check out live scores, photos, video highlights and more. Click here http://cricket.yahoo.com From sub_sengupta at yahoo.co.in Tue Jun 23 14:51:36 2009 From: sub_sengupta at yahoo.co.in (subhrodip sengupta) Date: Tue, 23 Jun 2009 14:51:36 +0530 (IST) Subject: [Reader-list] Lalgarh does not exist Message-ID: <278217.64838.qm@web94701.mail.in2.yahoo.com> Just a problem regarding submissions of even licenced arms. Except holding weapons of mass destruction, with the present state of affairs, who can possibly rule out the necessity of holding arms, powerful ones with or without license(Does the Arms Act allow someone to posess automatic weapons). No I do not encourage use of them for slaughter, because I see manipulated friction as some kind of a restriction to growth of physical forces and to restore what I call party Raaj, ie equations varying within limits allowing brokers to thrive. At the same time Hunger, and other kind of deprivation by Goondas are more pressing constraints, If these need removed and Human Productiveness need Development of Capacity of Defend one self and the couregae and capacity to defend those defending ones self, so be it!People first need to raise above the terror. By the way when some hood lums started closing mandirs before a bandh called by de-facto state govt, I first thought htat hese people were somehow linked to opposition spreading terror and dis-content. But my later enquiries found out that not certain factions, but the ruling party as a whole were backing or side-lining such moves! Disillusioned, I ask for your opnions(open ended). The state declares rash driving and smoking in parks illegal, too! ________________________________ From: subhrodip sengupta To: cashmeeri Cc: Readers list Yousuf Sarai. Sent: Tuesday, 23 June, 2009 2:28:39 PM Subject: Re: [Reader-list] Lalgarh does not exist I had lost the urge to speak on this issue. Simply because of the blatant take by the mainstream intellectuals and media. I never got access to what was written in the pamphlets. Let me talk a little before I take my stand. The fact that there was a mass displacement of tribals and other residents just before and during the onslaught was displayed only as a passe, putting the blame on a sudden terror created by the 'Maoists'. Strangely a popular leader claiming to be a maoist seemed less to be one. The blatant charge og lathis, breaking of homes of innocent unarmed, not trained in combatics, villagers by lathi and baton armed forces seemed blatant to me but too meek to be exposed by the media. And the police minister just warned the personnel not to follow or mess up with the cops now forces. What was being done to these crpf personnel suffering sun-strokes seemed to me a bit funny and lacking foresight and planning. Who are the ultras involved, and what about the village committee. Everyone saw the burning of CPM offices and 'restriction of police forces'.. Even I did. The co-rrelation with what the CPM has being do-ing with trinamaul supporters even in police custody was unseen. The fact that there exists certain CPM dominated villages where Media or outsiders are 'not allowed' is ignored. How can ever a ruling party be banned. Hopefully the allegations of torture rape and murder can be dodged by putting experienced, polished commandants as a mask and showing the plight of the forces and Heroes on Other. Lalgarh has been reclaimed by coming in of CPM party workers getting generous doles from government and fleeing protestors and numerous other tribals. At least media was allowed. During and after the operation no Social workers or Human Right Activists were dissuaded. How can the logic of the state be weakened? Hahahaha. With the centre the Trinamaul too took a tailspin, and npw from her home with security people (I hope the can, Kill for her defence), Didi is urging for peace. And das rule of the state was re-inforced? Veerappan, Tiger, Lalgarh. Who says a group of few people neither trined in Martial arts, nor possessing Weapons of mass destruction can overpower a large technically equipped Elite force? Every time I see commoners getting lathi-charged an incident where Jaats were driving of Chandigarh police comes into my mind, But pretty long ago. Audience(ok for clarification, of media channels like Frills and Trills!)Bad tamasha without quality fight.. LAlgarh was definitely one of them and the present pleasent experiences of the forces determined to cath the guerillas are another mockery. But ehat the people need today, is also an assurance. Of safety, of more rational police force. With my interactions with the people of the forces, unless excessive reforms, Police reforms withdrawal of immunity of state and Special Forces is made the I see most security forces more as a problem, with due regards to the Soldiers, especially the lower tier which appears problematic. Every time there is some dis satisfaction even with the Govt, wanna go back home, Do some Lafra with PUblic. True with Cisf as well. I had been rather lucky to avoid a 'friction', thats what the INA guys call it, for my instictive reaction is at times a fight not staying back requesting and then filing a Complaint of no good. Where disciplining civilians, did we know that recently the RPF and the RPSF had a huge 'Friction' at Delhi station? Naaah, the media is too busy waiting out of P.S. in this Sultry summer on such issues. There are talks of development all round for this 'Semi-Arid' lands. God knows who has his eyes on it. Tamasha will continue, in Assansol, eveywhere, as long as Parties do not stop keeping Goons and people do not resist trying to favour just for a job the'd obviously never get. Why lalgarh at leat till next Vidhan Sabha Election and immidiately after that in West Bengal is there any solace? Anyways I do not stay there, so not concerned.Let Budhdha babu answer. . . . And time as to who had his eyes on this Huge Expenditure, some kind of drill for army ok, but is there any business house too? Indeed, too much of Nasty things are goin on. The students of Humanities in WB (FUTURE, i guess) get tainted by the same medioricy and Hyppocritic souls. God Save our Souls! ________________________________ From: cashmeeri To: Sarai Sent: Monday, 22 June, 2009 7:43:01 PM Subject: [Reader-list] Lalgarh does not exist Discomfort in ideological terrains to be negotiated over and negotiated.   Lalgarh does not exist.       _________________________________________ reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. Critiques & Collaborations To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with subscribe in the subject header.. To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> ________________________________ ICC World Twenty20 England '09 exclusively on YAHOO! CRICKET Cricket on your mind? Visit the ultimate cricket website. Enter http://cricket.yahoo.com From sub_sengupta at yahoo.co.in Tue Jun 23 14:59:38 2009 From: sub_sengupta at yahoo.co.in (subhrodip sengupta) Date: Tue, 23 Jun 2009 14:59:38 +0530 (IST) Subject: [Reader-list] Very interesting Video - If authentic In-Reply-To: <312483.24195.qm@web57207.mail.re3.yahoo.com> References: <312483.24195.qm@web57207.mail.re3.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <366948.9768.qm@web94711.mail.in2.yahoo.com> Dear Kshmendra,  First, my regards to you for your broad base of knowledge. We have read interesting articles about countries transforming themselves from political backwardness and reforming Islam. Intersting indeed as his reference to bethoven. Seems to bring some welcome change to the culture, welcome by people. Bandein Mein Dum to hain. By the Way I just learnt about facts of NY interrogation after 26/11, World Trade Centre, sentiliating! Regards, Subhrodip. ________________________________ From: Kshmendra Kaul To: sarai list Sent: Monday, 22 June, 2009 2:46:32 PM Subject: [Reader-list] Very interesting Video - If authentic This is being circulated as a clip from Abu Dhabi TV  (29/12/06). The logo on the screen is positively of Abu Dhabhi TV.   If authentic, this is a very interesting video showing comments on 'Arab World' by one referred to as "Dhiyaa Al-Musawi - Bahraini Intellectual"    http://switch5.castup.net/frames/20041020_MemriTV_Popup/video_480x360.asp?ai=214&ar=1363wmv&ak=null   Kshmendra           _________________________________________ reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. Critiques & Collaborations To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with subscribe in the subject header. To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> Cricket on your mind? Visit the ultimate cricket website. Enter http://cricket.yahoo.com From rakesh.rnbdj at gmail.com Tue Jun 23 15:38:21 2009 From: rakesh.rnbdj at gmail.com (Rakesh Iyer) Date: Tue, 23 Jun 2009 15:38:21 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Lalgarh does not exist In-Reply-To: <278217.64838.qm@web94701.mail.in2.yahoo.com> References: <278217.64838.qm@web94701.mail.in2.yahoo.com> Message-ID: Dear Subhrodip I appreciate your concern about the displacement of tribals, which has not at all been looked at in the media. It is certainly true that the media has presented the situation in Lalgarh the way the CPI(M) would like us all to believe. The fact is that it's the way the police handled the situation after the blasts involving two Union Ministers and the current CM of Bengal, last year. The police insulted the tribals instead of catching the culprits, and certainly the CPI(M) cadre would have had a role to play, for in Bengal, I don't think there would be a difference between the government, the party cadre and the police. The Left, while talking about providing rights to the poor and the downtrodden, has totally forgotten its ideological stand, and has thus stood against the very goal it wanted to achieve: political, social and economic empowerment of the poor. The Left has systematically destroyed institution after institution, and the fine line between the govt. and the party has been blurred, as the party seems to be the overriding institution to decide everything. If one looks at field of culture, all organizations related to the govt. and culture dept. are having Leftist intellectuals. If one thinks about police, it's loyalty to the CPI(M) which matters more rather than maintenance of law and order. The Left has even used the mechanism of decentralization of power to extend its power down to the village panchayat level. In a normal situation, this would have helped the people to get power in their own hands. Instead, the Left has totally misused this situation. Now the poor, the migrants, the Muslims and the tribals are systematically kept poor and downtrodden. The govt. schemes are meant to serve the interests only of the CPI(M) supporters in each village. Others are simply omitted. Loyalty is the factor which decides whether one gets help or not. Even in the recent Cyclone Alia, there was news that the CPI(M) panchayats were distributing aid only to their supporters who were affected, and others were simply ignored. What's more is that the Leftists were at least earlier known for not using resources by govt. for their personal economics. Now of course, it's a different ball game. Under the current Bengal govt., many such things have come to light. Look at Nandigram and Singur, and the way the police indulged in shooting rather than trying out other methods. Killing of people even by the police under deteriorating law and order situation should be the last step, and should be tried only if the situation can't be under control. Instead, like in the rest of the country, the Bengal police proved their incompetency by shooting first, and the Bengal govt. also proved theirs by killing and then talking. Then came news in the media about how the CPI(M) cadres were getting rich in the villages by diverting resources obtained through the govt. machinery for private purposes. Only CPI(M) cadres could be present in the poverty line scheme. Supporters of other parties would not be allowed even to attend panchayat meetings, and even if a handful of them did so, during passing of financial budget or discussion of other schemes, they would simply be shouted down upon. And now of course, we have Lalgarh, where if Left cadres can't be there, it's wrong, but if the Left had it, all cadres from all other parties would be wiped out and sent out of Bengal. Of course, the Left has changed the nature of the state so much, that today the situation, at the village level at least, is not dictated so much so by caste or sex, as by party affiliations. And whenever the Left failed its power waning, they have resorted to violence both through the party machinery and through the govt. machinery. This way, the Left has resorted to killing the TC activists, and even Congress and other activists. The state is now polarized on party lines, and since the Left has obstructed any kind of democratic opposition to rise through non-violent methods, the only method left for the Opposition to survive is by violence. This is what we have seen too. The Trinamool Congress is no better than the Left in its record of violent acts. Infact, now that the police has begun to feel that the Trinamool may come back to power in the 2011 Assembly elections, they have probably forgotten to support the CPI(M) cadres, which is why we now keep hearing news of the Left activists being killed in villages where only Trinamool cadres exist. So now, all kind of democracy is brought to a halt. Dissent has been dealt with through violence. And villages are classified as Left or Trinamool ones. This is utterly disgusting, and one of the most destructive features of the Left govt., for which the Left mainly, and so also in part the Trinamool is responsible. And Mamta Banerjee doesn't inspire hope that if she does come to power in Bengal, things will change too much from there. Regarding the current situation in Lalgarh, I feel that the govt. should not have simply sent forces first. The first option, in any case, as in this one, would have been to see if there are any possibilities of talks. After all, in this case, the PSBJC has stated that they are ready for talks, and since they have formed in short term to protest the atrocities inflicted by the police on them (in the name of investigating the Lalgarh blasts 2008) and in long term to ensure development of the tribals, the Central govt. should have instead asked the State govt to first think of talks. It seems however that the Congress was thinking of supporting the Left as well, just in case they lost out Mamta's support. Which is why the forces were sent and violence as an option has been considered. Anyways, more than the Army, it's the CRPF which has been notoriously involved in most of the cases which have tarnished the image of the defence forces. In Chhatisgarh, they have been found in numerous reports, indulging along with Salwa Judum activists in rapes, murders and killings, stealing of pigs, cows, and burning of homes. Is this what the CRPF is meant for? In the North East, it's they who seem to create most of the troubles in the name of the AFSPA. And I recently read a news item saying that the CRPF which was sent to troubled Assam during the period of communal violence (I believe between Bodos and Muslims), two of them were involved in raping a girl. Probably the CRPF needs to be given a shock treatment when such incidents are on a rise. (I don't believe there should be armies required in the world at all, for they only distort our views to justify their relevance. However, the inevitable fact is that no state is going to withdraw its army, and so what we must strive to do is to balance out our views, and let them not commit wrong deeds in the name of defence activities.) It is also shameful that Maoists have been declared terrorists, without realizing why people support them. For 60 years, you couldn't bring development to tribals, and your machinery colluded with party cadre for 32 years to ensure tribals were oppressed and cheated. Now that a group of people come and ask the tribals to fight against you, are they actually terrorists? They don't even want a new state. What they want is development, and why can't we talk with them, sit down and discuss issues. After all, creation of the Maoists is a failure of our model of development, and the sooner or later the Indian state realize this, the better for us. Regards Rakesh From pawan.durani at gmail.com Tue Jun 23 16:04:24 2009 From: pawan.durani at gmail.com (Pawan Durani) Date: Tue, 23 Jun 2009 16:04:24 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] My Name is 'RED' Message-ID: <6b79f1a70906230334u2a9eec05t3dacb7945c3ec8c8@mail.gmail.com> >From my favourite Blogger - Great Bong ...................In order to understand why the violence has been so sustained and brutal in Lalgarh, one has to look at the historical traditions of the district of Medinipur (now divided into two) of which Lalgarh is a part. From the times of Aurangzeb when the village of Tilkuti in Medinipur invited the Emperor’s wrath for constructing a Hindu temple in direct contravention to his decree through to the Chuar tribal revolt in the nineteenth century and the independent Tamluk government which effectively set up a parallel administration (the rebellion being voluntarily ended on Gandhi’s request) in parts of Medinipur in 1942 to Nandigram in 2007, Medinipurians have been known for their strong streak of independence and a healthy mistrust for centralized authority.................... read the complete article at following link http://greatbong.net/2009/06/22/my-name-is-red/#more-708 From sub_sengupta at yahoo.co.in Tue Jun 23 16:17:29 2009 From: sub_sengupta at yahoo.co.in (subhrodip sengupta) Date: Tue, 23 Jun 2009 16:17:29 +0530 (IST) Subject: [Reader-list] Lalgarh does not exist In-Reply-To: References: <278217.64838.qm@web94701.mail.in2.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <430280.38762.qm@web94707.mail.in2.yahoo.com> Thanks Rakhesh, Lalgarh lives on, as a shock to and as a check to government attrocities and arbitariness. No one can deny the costs of any civil war. Lalgarh lives on as an eye pointer to those who involve in party violence. Lalgarh lives on to portray the failure of democracy and Human rights mechanism. Even if we have experienced patrons and service men and Nation-Machoist forces, the viral elements, usually the semi-trained personnel placed who work at grassroot placed under an ever growing force and whose wrong deeds continue. thE villages are not yet captured. Another Lalgarh may rise, who knows in that very palce itself. I wonder at Blatant logic of such Sanitising (does that equal neutralising ie killing) operations only to recall the Mumbai Terror attacks where the NSG helped sanitisation of the hostages as well. The Maoists have spread. Alas, the depriciation of ideology, the mixing up with Cpm style tactics and Favouring Domestic capitalism and semi-feudal values and ignoring more vitality behind class struggle that man should get means to live and grow decently, his fundamental rights to Natural Resources. Was this intentional to buy back lost weapons. Many more shall be killed in train attacks etc. The govt shall click it's tongue. That's all. But that's not cheap, is it? ________________________________ From: Rakesh Iyer To: subhrodip sengupta Cc: cashmeeri ; Readers list Yousuf Sarai. Sent: Tuesday, 23 June, 2009 3:38:21 PM Subject: Re: [Reader-list] Lalgarh does not exist Dear Subhrodip I appreciate your concern about the displacement of tribals, which has not at all been looked at in the media. It is certainly true that the media has presented the situation in Lalgarh the way the CPI(M) would like us all to believe. The fact is that it's the way the police handled the situation after the blasts involving two Union Ministers and the current CM of Bengal, last year. The police insulted the tribals instead of catching the culprits, and certainly the CPI(M) cadre would have had a role to play, for in Bengal, I don't think there would be a difference between the government, the party cadre and the police. The Left, while talking about providing rights to the poor and the downtrodden, has totally forgotten its ideological stand, and has thus stood against the very goal it wanted to achieve: political, social and economic empowerment of the poor. The Left has systematically destroyed institution after institution, and the fine line between the govt. and the party has been blurred, as the party seems to be the overriding institution to decide everything. If one looks at field of culture, all organizations related to the govt. and culture dept. are having Leftist intellectuals. If one thinks about police, it's loyalty to the CPI(M) which matters more rather than maintenance of law and order. The Left has even used the mechanism of decentralization of power to extend its power down to the village panchayat level. In a normal situation, this would have helped the people to get power in their own hands. Instead, the Left has totally misused this situation. Now the poor, the migrants, the Muslims and the tribals are systematically kept poor and downtrodden. The govt. schemes are meant to serve the interests only of the CPI(M) supporters in each village. Others are simply omitted. Loyalty is the factor which decides whether one gets help or not. Even in the recent Cyclone Alia, there was news that the CPI(M) panchayats were distributing aid only to their supporters who were affected, and others were simply ignored. What's more is that the Leftists were at least earlier known for not using resources by govt. for their personal economics. Now of course, it's a different ball game. Under the current Bengal govt., many such things have come to light. Look at Nandigram and Singur, and the way the police indulged in shooting rather than trying out other methods. Killing of people even by the police under deteriorating law and order situation should be the last step, and should be tried only if the situation can't be under control. Instead, like in the rest of the country, the Bengal police proved their incompetency by shooting first, and the Bengal govt. also proved theirs by killing and then talking. Then came news in the media about how the CPI(M) cadres were getting rich in the villages by diverting resources obtained through the govt. machinery for private purposes. Only CPI(M) cadres could be present in the poverty line scheme. Supporters of other parties would not be allowed even to attend panchayat meetings, and even if a handful of them did so, during passing of financial budget or discussion of other schemes, they would simply be shouted down upon. And now of course, we have Lalgarh, where if Left cadres can't be there, it's wrong, but if the Left had it, all cadres from all other parties would be wiped out and sent out of Bengal. Of course, the Left has changed the nature of the state so much, that today the situation, at the village level at least, is not dictated so much so by caste or sex, as by party affiliations. And whenever the Left failed its power waning, they have resorted to violence both through the party machinery and through the govt. machinery. This way, the Left has resorted to killing the TC activists, and even Congress and other activists. The state is now polarized on party lines, and since the Left has obstructed any kind of democratic opposition to rise through non-violent methods, the only method left for the Opposition to survive is by violence. This is what we have seen too. The Trinamool Congress is no better than the Left in its record of violent acts. Infact, now that the police has begun to feel that the Trinamool may come back to power in the 2011 Assembly elections, they have probably forgotten to support the CPI(M) cadres, which is why we now keep hearing news of the Left activists being killed in villages where only Trinamool cadres exist. So now, all kind of democracy is brought to a halt. Dissent has been dealt with through violence. And villages are classified as Left or Trinamool ones. This is utterly disgusting, and one of the most destructive features of the Left govt., for which the Left mainly, and so also in part the Trinamool is responsible. And Mamta Banerjee doesn't inspire hope that if she does come to power in Bengal, things will change too much from there. Regarding the current situation in Lalgarh, I feel that the govt. should not have simply sent forces first. The first option, in any case, as in this one, would have been to see if there are any possibilities of talks. After all, in this case, the PSBJC has stated that they are ready for talks, and since they have formed in short term to protest the atrocities inflicted by the police on them (in the name of investigating the Lalgarh blasts 2008) and in long term to ensure development of the tribals, the Central govt. should have instead asked the State govt to first think of talks. It seems however that the Congress was thinking of supporting the Left as well, just in case they lost out Mamta's support. Which is why the forces were sent and violence as an option has been considered. Anyways, more than the Army, it's the CRPF which has been notoriously involved in most of the cases which have tarnished the image of the defence forces. In Chhatisgarh, they have been found in numerous reports, indulging along with Salwa Judum activists in rapes, murders and killings, stealing of pigs, cows, and burning of homes. Is this what the CRPF is meant for? In the North East, it's they who seem to create most of the troubles in the name of the AFSPA. And I recently read a news item saying that the CRPF which was sent to troubled Assam during the period of communal violence (I believe between Bodos and Muslims), two of them were involved in raping a girl. Probably the CRPF needs to be given a shock treatment when such incidents are on a rise. (I don't believe there should be armies required in the world at all, for they only distort our views to justify their relevance. However, the inevitable fact is that no state is going to withdraw its army, and so what we must strive to do is to balance out our views, and let them not commit wrong deeds in the name of defence activities.) It is also shameful that Maoists have been declared terrorists, without realizing why people support them. For 60 years, you couldn't bring development to tribals, and your machinery colluded with party cadre for 32 years to ensure tribals were oppressed and cheated. Now that a group of people come and ask the tribals to fight against you, are they actually terrorists? They don't even want a new state. What they want is development, and why can't we talk with them, sit down and discuss issues. After all, creation of the Maoists is a failure of our model of development, and the sooner or later the Indian state realize this, the better for us. Regards Rakesh Cricket on your mind? Visit the ultimate cricket website. Enter http://cricket.yahoo.com From kshmendra2005 at yahoo.com Tue Jun 23 16:23:17 2009 From: kshmendra2005 at yahoo.com (Kshmendra Kaul) Date: Tue, 23 Jun 2009 03:53:17 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Reader-list] Very interesting Video - If authentic Message-ID: <192708.99995.qm@web57202.mail.re3.yahoo.com> Dear Subhrodip   Plese do share info about "facts of NY interrogation after ....., World Trade Centre" (I presume you meant 9/11. Mumbai was 26/11)   Mera knowledge-vowledge kuch khaas nahi hai. Just have varied interests and this List keeps stoking them and/or feeding them.    Kshmendra --- On Tue, 6/23/09, subhrodip sengupta wrote: From: subhrodip sengupta Subject: Re: [Reader-list] Very interesting Video - If authentic To: "Kshmendra Kaul" Cc: "Readers list Yousuf Sarai." Date: Tuesday, June 23, 2009, 2:59 PM Dear Kshmendra,  First, my regards to you for your broad base of knowledge. We have read interesting articles about countries transforming themselves from political backwardness and reforming Islam. Intersting indeed as his reference to bethoven. Seems to bring some welcome change to the culture, welcome by people. Bandein Mein Dum to hain. By the Way I just learnt about facts of NY interrogation after 26/11, World Trade Centre, sentiliating! Regards, Subhrodip. From: Kshmendra Kaul To: sarai list Sent: Monday, 22 June, 2009 2:46:32 PM Subject: [Reader-list] Very interesting Video - If authentic This is being circulated as a clip from Abu Dhabi TV  (29/12/06).. The logo on the screen is positively of Abu Dhabhi TV.   If authentic, this is a very interesting video showing comments on 'Arab World' by one referred to as "Dhiyaa Al-Musawi - Bahraini Intellectual"    http://switch5.castup.net/frames/20041020_MemriTV_Popup/video_480x360.asp?ai=214&ar=1363wmv&ak=null   Kshmendra           _________________________________________ reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. Critiques & Collaborations To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with subscribe in the subject header. To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> ICC World Twenty20 England '09 exclusively on YAHOO! CRICKET From sub_sengupta at yahoo.co.in Tue Jun 23 16:25:14 2009 From: sub_sengupta at yahoo.co.in (subhrodip sengupta) Date: Tue, 23 Jun 2009 16:25:14 +0530 (IST) Subject: [Reader-list] Lalgarh does not exist In-Reply-To: References: <278217.64838.qm@web94701.mail.in2.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <129519.17023.qm@web94714.mail.in2.yahoo.com> Dear Rakesh, These tribals were once cultivators of fertile soils, and at places collectors from forests. From Hindu, Jain and later Christian and Muslim origins, in thi They were pushed back towards forests as land became scarce and with cleaning of forests settled as per convinience. Or used in movements. And then Forgotten. Alas the common people of towns have to suffer to such extents nowadays, along with rebels, just to ensure freedom to torture innocents. And After all they pay neither the journalists or media, nor do they look attractive at all, swaeting under the sultry heat of summer. AC rooms are more comfortable, I guess lol! Regards. ________________________________ From: Rakesh Iyer To: subhrodip sengupta Cc: cashmeeri ; Readers list Yousuf Sarai. Sent: Tuesday, 23 June, 2009 3:38:21 PM Subject: Re: [Reader-list] Lalgarh does not exist Dear Subhrodip I appreciate your concern about the displacement of tribals, which has not at all been looked at in the media. It is certainly true that the media has presented the situation in Lalgarh the way the CPI(M) would like us all to believe. The fact is that it's the way the police handled the situation after the blasts involving two Union Ministers and the current CM of Bengal, last year. The police insulted the tribals instead of catching the culprits, and certainly the CPI(M) cadre would have had a role to play, for in Bengal, I don't think there would be a difference between the government, the party cadre and the police. The Left, while talking about providing rights to the poor and the downtrodden, has totally forgotten its ideological stand, and has thus stood against the very goal it wanted to achieve: political, social and economic empowerment of the poor. The Left has systematically destroyed institution after institution, and the fine line between the govt. and the party has been blurred, as the party seems to be the overriding institution to decide everything. If one looks at field of culture, all organizations related to the govt. and culture dept. are having Leftist intellectuals. If one thinks about police, it's loyalty to the CPI(M) which matters more rather than maintenance of law and order. The Left has even used the mechanism of decentralization of power to extend its power down to the village panchayat level. In a normal situation, this would have helped the people to get power in their own hands. Instead, the Left has totally misused this situation. Now the poor, the migrants, the Muslims and the tribals are systematically kept poor and downtrodden. The govt. schemes are meant to serve the interests only of the CPI(M) supporters in each village. Others are simply omitted. Loyalty is the factor which decides whether one gets help or not. Even in the recent Cyclone Alia, there was news that the CPI(M) panchayats were distributing aid only to their supporters who were affected, and others were simply ignored.. What's more is that the Leftists were at least earlier known for not using resources by govt. for their personal economics. Now of course, it's a different ball game. Under the current Bengal govt., many such things have come to light. Look at Nandigram and Singur, and the way the police indulged in shooting rather than trying out other methods. Killing of people even by the police under deteriorating law and order situation should be the last step, and should be tried only if the situation can't be under control. Instead, like in the rest of the country, the Bengal police proved their incompetency by shooting first, and the Bengal govt. also proved theirs by killing and then talking. Then came news in the media about how the CPI(M) cadres were getting rich in the villages by diverting resources obtained through the govt. machinery for private purposes. Only CPI(M) cadres could be present in the poverty line scheme. Supporters of other parties would not be allowed even to attend panchayat meetings, and even if a handful of them did so, during passing of financial budget or discussion of other schemes, they would simply be shouted down upon. And now of course, we have Lalgarh, where if Left cadres can't be there, it's wrong, but if the Left had it, all cadres from all other parties would be wiped out and sent out of Bengal. Of course, the Left has changed the nature of the state so much, that today the situation, at the village level at least, is not dictated so much so by caste or sex, as by party affiliations. And whenever the Left failed its power waning, they have resorted to violence both through the party machinery and through the govt. machinery. This way, the Left has resorted to killing the TC activists, and even Congress and other activists. The state is now polarized on party lines, and since the Left has obstructed any kind of democratic opposition to rise through non-violent methods, the only method left for the Opposition to survive is by violence. This is what we have seen too. The Trinamool Congress is no better than the Left in its record of violent acts. Infact, now that the police has begun to feel that the Trinamool may come back to power in the 2011 Assembly elections, they have probably forgotten to support the CPI(M) cadres, which is why we now keep hearing news of the Left activists being killed in villages where only Trinamool cadres exist. So now, all kind of democracy is brought to a halt. Dissent has been dealt with through violence. And villages are classified as Left or Trinamool ones. This is utterly disgusting, and one of the most destructive features of the Left govt., for which the Left mainly, and so also in part the Trinamool is responsible. And Mamta Banerjee doesn't inspire hope that if she does come to power in Bengal, things will change too much from there. Regarding the current situation in Lalgarh, I feel that the govt. should not have simply sent forces first. The first option, in any case, as in this one, would have been to see if there are any possibilities of talks. After all, in this case, the PSBJC has stated that they are ready for talks, and since they have formed in short term to protest the atrocities inflicted by the police on them (in the name of investigating the Lalgarh blasts 2008) and in long term to ensure development of the tribals, the Central govt. should have instead asked the State govt to first think of talks. It seems however that the Congress was thinking of supporting the Left as well, just in case they lost out Mamta's support. Which is why the forces were sent and violence as an option has been considered. Anyways, more than the Army, it's the CRPF which has been notoriously involved in most of the cases which have tarnished the image of the defence forces. In Chhatisgarh, they have been found in numerous reports, indulging along with Salwa Judum activists in rapes, murders and killings, stealing of pigs, cows, and burning of homes. Is this what the CRPF is meant for? In the North East, it's they who seem to create most of the troubles in the name of the AFSPA. And I recently read a news item saying that the CRPF which was sent to troubled Assam during the period of communal violence (I believe between Bodos and Muslims), two of them were involved in raping a girl. Probably the CRPF needs to be given a shock treatment when such incidents are on a rise. (I don't believe there should be armies required in the world at all, for they only distort our views to justify their relevance. However, the inevitable fact is that no state is going to withdraw its army, and so what we must strive to do is to balance out our views, and let them not commit wrong deeds in the name of defence activities.) It is also shameful that Maoists have been declared terrorists, without realizing why people support them. For 60 years, you couldn't bring development to tribals, and your machinery colluded with party cadre for 32 years to ensure tribals were oppressed and cheated. Now that a group of people come and ask the tribals to fight against you, are they actually terrorists? They don't even want a new state. What they want is development, and why can't we talk with them, sit down and discuss issues. After all, creation of the Maoists is a failure of our model of development, and the sooner or later the Indian state realize this, the better for us. Regards Rakesh ICC World Twenty20 England '09 exclusively on YAHOO! CRICKET http://cricket.yahoo.com From c.anupam at gmail.com Tue Jun 23 16:37:07 2009 From: c.anupam at gmail.com (anupam chakravartty) Date: Tue, 23 Jun 2009 16:37:07 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Detained in India, arrested in Bangladesh In-Reply-To: <7271ec560906222358x2ef5216aj71616822c40df7ff@mail.gmail.com> References: <55371.26252.qm@web39103.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <7271ec560906222358x2ef5216aj71616822c40df7ff@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <341380d00906230407m16c56722q5acf3a04a19588e9@mail.gmail.com> Dear Rajen, Thanks to the professional mercernaries like Shahidul Alam the border areas and the issues associated with them are coming in the public. Else BDR and BSF would have turned them into minefields and battle zones. Instead of knowing how people have been living on the either side of border have the same variety of paddy growing, when the river swells in the monsoons, how floods enter their houses, you worried about spying and also how the illegal immigration happens under the so called watchful eyes of the security agencies in that area. the fact that this photographer has been candid about what he had shot makes his intention very clear. on second thoughts, what do u think about the embedded journalists who went to Iraq? second, Alam clearly mentions: "The gate itself, I’m trying to remember now, large black gates, double gates, about ten feet tall, 20 feet wide, I think. But the fence, the barbed wire extends above that, [what, it extends above the gate?] well, not above the gate itself, but it’s higher than the gate, stretching on* both sides*, as far as the eye can see." Both sides means that he is talking about the Indian as well Bangladeshi side. If he were to be spying for Bangladesh, that this info is completely irrelevant. If he is spying for British as he said it to BSF guys, then this piece of information is quite well known that double gates have barbed wires running over it across world borders in several states. Thanks to ignorance of the interviewer all the border areas starting from Tripura (where they have fences, to Chittagong hill tract and areas near Dhubri district in Assam in India have barbed wires running above ten feet tall, 20 feet wide). third, the pictures became an incriminating evidence after he realised that he was on the other side of the border, where he as per law was not supposed although he said (since you decided to cite only a certain part of the interview leaving aside an important point): * You mean there were no border signposts. No, there was absolutely no sign mentioning territory, or that we were crossing into restricted zone, whether it was no man’s land or anything else. These were paddy fields we were walking across. When I got onto this dirt track, there was still no sign. One could see there was the Indian border far away, one could certainly see the fence.* ** However, as you say, on many occasions journalists have been spies too. spies for governments, spies for terrorists, mediator for criminals, mediator for smugglers (such as veerapan), journalists who act like mouthpiece of police, etc etc, but mostly these people are journalists, in process of documenting truths. -thanks anupam On 6/23/09, Rajendra Bhat Uppinangadi wrote: > > Dear all, > > is it free for all if one is a photo journalist, can he not be a > "professional" mercenary who has specific profession of being spying for > his > adopted nations, ? It is not rare nor strange when professional > "journalists" have been on spying missions in north Korea, Russia or in US > and Uk or host of other nations. > > Some narrations are indicative of complicity of the professional in his > post.The statements where he is doubtful of his photoframes, snaps which > are > illegal point to something more sinister.? > These two paragraphs are enough to raise the doubt of the great work on > river Brahmaputhra.! > > "I’d been taking pictures along the way. I’d been shooting with a > wide angle lens. I was pretty certain that my wide angle shots, my > landscape photos etc, would have segments of the space I was going > through, which I now realised was illegal. I didn’t want to get caught > with these pictures, so I worked out how to remove this incriminating > evidence." > "The gate itself, I’m trying to remember now, large black gates, > double gates, about ten feet tall, 20 feet wide, I think. But the > fence, the barbed wire extends above that, [what, it extends above the > gate?] well, not above the gate itself, but it’s higher than the gate, > stretching on both sides, as far as the eye can see. > > It’s still quite early, but how do you look back at the incident? > > That’s a big question. My first concern is that I have to finish my > story so I have to work. The story is incomplete, it needs to be told, > not only the Brahmaputra story, but given this situation, the border > story. I think it becomes even more important today, knowing what I do > now, that we question the structures that makes such a situation > possible. But, before anything else, I need to thank the many, many > people who have done so much for me over this period of time." > > > Being journalist, crime does pay.? > > On Mon, Jun 22, 2009 at 10:49 PM, A.K. Malik wrote: > > > > > Hi, > > The entire episode seems Straight from our Bollywood.Unable to express > > views whom to blame especially the part where he was called to Indian > > territory.BSF jawans?? > > > > (A.K.MALIK) > > > > > > --- On Mon, 6/22/09, Harsh Kapoor wrote: > > > > > From: Harsh Kapoor > > > Subject: [Reader-list] Detained in India, arrested in Bangladesh > > > To: "sarai list" > > > Date: Monday, June 22, 2009, 4:41 AM > > > New Age, 22 June 2009 > > > > > > Detained in India, arrested in Bangladesh > > > > > > Shahidul Alam in an interview with Rahnuma Ahmed > > > > > > > > > Please tell us about your project and why you were detained > > > by the > > > Indian Border Security Force. > > > > > > I started the Brahmaputra project in the > > > late 1990s. It’s an > > > incredible river that goes from Tibet through Arunachal and > > > Assam in > > > India, into Bangladesh and all the way into the Bay of > > > Bengal. In the > > > early part of the project I’d done some video footage in > > > Tibet and > > > India, but not any in Bangladesh. We at Drik felt that we > > > should try > > > and produce a film, so my colleagues in the audiovisual > > > department, > > > Sumeru Mukhopadhyay and Abul Kasem, and I went off to > > > Nijhum Deep in > > > the south, in the Bay of Bengal on 11th June for 3 days. > > > > > > We returned to Dhaka, then went to > > > Rowmari on the 15th to > > > photograph the section of the river where it crosses from > > > India to > > > Bangladesh. We drove up to Chilmari, went by boat to the > > > Rowmari side, > > > found a guesthouse. It was late afternoon, and we thought > > > we should go > > > out on a recce. As photographers we had obviously cameras, > > > and I had a > > > video camera with me. > > > > > > As it often happens in villages, > > > distances are not the same as we > > > measure it in the city, so whenever we asked people where > > > it was, > > > they’d say, ‘just out there’, ‘a little bit > > > further’, ‘ten more > > > minutes...’ We ended up travelling quite a long way, by > > > van, a little > > > by boat, then we walked through market places, by > > > people’s homes, with > > > cameras dangling on either side, three strangers, creating > > > a lot of > > > attention. > > > > > > At one point we were walking across some > > > paddy fields, and an > > > elderly farmer stopped me and said, this is a difficult way > > > to go, why > > > don’t you go on to the road which is nearby. This was a > > > clay track > > > road, very overgrown, not much of a road, but soon after I > > > got on to > > > this road armed BSF (Indian Border Security Force) people > > > from the > > > other side of the fence beckoned me. I knew this was a > > > dangerous > > > situation. I knew that 52 Bangladeshis had been gunned down > > > by the BSF > > > during the last 6 months. I was possibly only 50 yards away > > > – well > > > within their shooting range. It wasn’t sensible to do > > > anything other > > > than comply. So, I walked calmly towards them, making plans > > > about how > > > I should proceed. > > > > > > As I had sort of expected when I got > > > close to the gate, they opened > > > the gate, several of them ran out and literally dragged me > > > inside. And > > > locked the gate. I was well and truly within India. > > > > > > You mean there were no border signposts. > > > > > > No, there was absolutely no sign > > > mentioning territory, or that we > > > were crossing into restricted zone, whether it was no > > > man’s land or > > > anything else. These were paddy fields we were walking > > > across. When I > > > got onto this dirt track, there was still no sign. One > > > could see there > > > was the Indian border far away, one could certainly see the > > > fence. And > > > it was soon after I got onto the dirt track that the BSF > > > beckoned me. > > > But before that, there’d been absolutely no indication > > > that we were > > > outside anywhere of Bangladesh. > > > > > > But what about BDR soldiers? > > > > > > No, none. Certainly, we’d expected > > > there to be BDR jawans and other > > > people, or at least some sort of an indication near the > > > border, but > > > there weren’t any. > > > > > > After the BSF pulled you into their > > > gates, what happened? Did they > > > assault you? > > > > > > No. They came out and grabbed me, and > > > dragged me in. They (how many > > > were they?) about 5 or 6, there were more inside, they were > > > a bit > > > rough in dragging me in but I wouldn’t say I was > > > assaulted. > > > > > > As a seasoned photojournalist, how did > > > you strategise, to get out > > > of this situation? > > > > > > Well, since I was in their firing range > > > what was most important was > > > to stay alive. Once inside, there was the question of > > > avoiding > > > physical violence. I felt I would be much safer in the > > > hands of senior > > > officers than in the hands of jawans, trigger-happy jawans > > > in > > > particular. Knowing the history between the BSF and > > > Bangladeshis, I > > > felt that presenting myself as a Bangladeshi was going to > > > be suicidal. > > > > > > I made the decision that I was going to > > > be a foreign photographer, > > > out on an assignment. I decided I would speak only in > > > English. I did > > > have Bangladeshi identity with me which I didn’t want to > > > show. I also > > > had a UK driver’s license, so it made sense for me to be > > > British. I > > > mentioned National Geographic because that was a known name > > > and even > > > out here the jawans might have heard of it. I also > > > calculated that > > > bringing in a US component could give me some sort of > > > insularity, > > > given the power of the US, and the fact that India was its > > > close ally. > > > As for the National Geographic, I am on their Advisory > > > Board. I give a > > > lecture there every year, I’m involved in many of their > > > seminars so I > > > do have a long relationship with the organisation but I > > > wasn’t on > > > assignment for them. > > > > > > My initial attempt at convincing them > > > that I was a foreigner with > > > British and US connections was merely power play. I was > > > trying to make > > > sure the jawans felt I wasn’t some Bangladeshi they could > > > beat up and > > > kill, but someone from far away, who had better > > > connections. And > > > frankly, I was using the race and class card. > > > > > > What happened after that? > > > > > > Well, talk of the National Geographic, of > > > being British, shook them > > > a little bit. Of course, I pretended I didn’t speak > > > Bangla or Hindi. I > > > heard them talking amongst each other, saying that perhaps > > > it wasn’t > > > such a good idea to take a foreigner, perhaps they should > > > let him go. > > > > > > I decided to push my luck further. I > > > said, unless you let me speak > > > to my National Geographic colleagues they might report to > > > head office. > > > Then I rang you, my partner, and I spoke to you in my best > > > British > > > accent. I remember it took you a little while since we > > > don’t speak to > > > each other in English, but you quickly twigged. More for > > > the audience > > > than for anyone else, I fairly loudly told you to inform > > > the prime > > > minister, the home minister, the BDR people, the BSF head, > > > etc. I > > > pulled names out of my hat willy-nilly, but making sure > > > they were > > > important-sounding names, so that that these jawans > > > recognised that I > > > was a very important person, with important connections. > > > > > > How were you treated by BSF once they > > > knew that you were a big-shot > > > photographer? > > > > > > Once the officers arrived, I felt, I was > > > more in control. They > > > wanted to look at my identity card, asked for my address. > > > Soon, the > > > officer, a Mr PK Roy, a Bengali, was convinced that I was > > > not an > > > ordinary Bangladeshi but probably an important foreign > > > photographer. > > > Their attitude began to change. He asked the jawans to get > > > me a cup of > > > tea. > > > > > > Later, he got a phone call, from > > > obviously a senior person on his > > > side, who presumably told him that I should be released, > > > that I should > > > be taken good care of. Now, it was a question of the > > > information > > > percolating down to the lower levels of command, and > > > getting a written > > > confirmation from his immediate superiors before he could > > > release me. > > > > > > Much later, sweets were bought from the > > > market. The tone of the > > > conversation, and the dynamics, changed completely. But, as > > > it was > > > getting dark, they were convinced no handover would take > > > place at > > > night. I was taken to a guesthouse nearby, into a room, > > > with a > > > television, a telephone with a handle, a bed, an attached > > > bathroom. > > > Very clean, very pleasant place, and given dinner. Mr PK > > > Roy was very > > > concerned that I was made to feel looked after. I spoke to > > > his > > > commander who was extremely polite, apologised for the > > > situation, and > > > said that the BDR had been informed. I would be handed over > > > to the > > > BDR, as soon as communication took place. I thanked him, > > > and assured > > > him that I was being well looked after. It was a very > > > civil > > > conversation. > > > > > > What were your concerns then, as a > > > photographer? > > > > > > I’d been taking pictures along the way. > > > I’d been shooting with a > > > wide angle lens. I was pretty certain that my wide angle > > > shots, my > > > landscape photos etc, would have segments of the space I > > > was going > > > through, which I now realised was illegal. I didn’t want > > > to get caught > > > with these pictures, so I worked out how to remove this > > > incriminating > > > evidence. > > > > > > What happened after you were handed over? > > > It was at 11:15, right? > > > > > > Yes, around then. It was pitch dark, > > > dense shrubbery, bad roads. We > > > came to a point where Mr PK Roy said this is where the sign > > > is [Indian > > > no man’s land begins]. So I said, well, please show me > > > the sign. They > > > looked around, but couldn’t find it. They apologised and > > > said, please > > > believe us, it’s here, we can’t find it right now. Then > > > they met the > > > BDR people, again, a very civil meeting. The BSF produced a > > > document > > > for the BDR to sign, when I was handed over. > > > > > > Once the Indians left, the BDR subedar > > > got a phone call from his > > > commanding officer. He spoke to me then, and initially > > > accused me, > > > apni lukie gecchen, you sneaked into this place. I strongly > > > objected > > > because we’d come in broad daylight, three of us, we had > > > equipment, we > > > had asked people for directions. He then changed his tack. > > > He said > > > there were some formalities which I had to go through, > > > papers I needed > > > to sign. Of course, I agreed. > > > > > > And did you learn from the Kurigram BDR, > > > how they came to know of > > > your detention by the BSF? Was it locally, or from Dhaka? > > > > > > No, I found out later from conversations, > > > they’d received the > > > information from Dhaka. In fact, the subedar was very > > > worried about > > > this. When the BDR director general had rung from Dhaka, he > > > had > > > specific information about where I was. But the local-level > > > BDR hadn’t > > > a clue. > > > > > > And why do you think those at the > > > local-level didn’t know? > > > > > > I was told about this later. I was > > > chatting to them and they said, > > > we’d normally have known. It wouldn’t have occurred but > > > we had some > > > VIP guests. We had been busy entertaining the VIPs. > > > > > > And after that...? > > > > > > Initially, we went to the BDR camp, three > > > of us on a motorcycle, > > > miles away from where this incident took place. They > > > offered me food > > > which had apparently been prepared for the VIP guests so it > > > was good > > > food. They kept saying another 5-10 minutes, but after a > > > long time, I > > > said look, what’s going on here, I want to get back. We > > > eventually > > > started walking but instead of taking me to the guesthouse, > > > they took > > > me to the thana. Another long wait, close conversations > > > between BDR > > > personnel and police. At one stage, I said, I’m very > > > appreciative that > > > you’ve got me out of India. But I’m now a citizen in my > > > own country, > > > you have no right to keep me here unless you’re arresting > > > me for > > > something. I got up to walk away and that’s when I > > > realised they > > > weren’t going to let me leave the place. By then I learnt > > > from local > > > people who had come to the thana that the BDR was about to > > > file a case > > > against me. At this stage I rang you again, this was about > > > 2:30/3:00 > > > in the morning. Shortly after this, they confiscated my > > > cameras, and > > > my phone. I no longer had direct access to anyone. > > > > > > So, why did the Bangladesh government > > > file a case against you? > > > > > > It’s conjecture, of course. The local > > > BDR were extremely worried > > > about the predicament they were in. The fact that they had > > > no > > > knowledge of this incident, that the border had been > > > completely > > > un-manned, that there was no BDR person in sight, that they > > > didn’t > > > know about it even after the local people had gotten to > > > know. It left > > > them with egg on their face. And again, the original > > > accusation by the > > > colonel suggested that there was an attempt to put the > > > blame and onus > > > upon us, that we had sneaked into this place, which was > > > clearly not > > > true. So, there was huge negligence on the part of the BDR, > > > and I > > > suspect they needed some sort of a diversionary tactic to > > > cover up for > > > their omission. > > > > > > Did your bail application and the court > > > proceedings go through smoothly? > > > > > > Yes, everyone was very cooperative. I was > > > also granted permission > > > to travel abroad. I am scheduled for an exclusive photo > > > shoot with > > > Nelson Mandela, and there are other important assignments > > > that I > > > wouldn’t like to miss, yes, things went very well. Most > > > Kurigram > > > lawyers and journalists were they. They rallied around me. > > > > > > If you were not who you are, what could > > > have happened? > > > > > > Possibly, the worst. The BDR men > > > themselves told me that I’d done a > > > very wise thing by walking up to them, not attempting to > > > run, or doing > > > anything silly. They said they were scared to go to these > > > places. > > > That, sometimes, criminals take shelter from the police by > > > going to > > > these regions because they know that the police are scared > > > of > > > venturing there. So, by all concerned it was known to be > > > dangerous > > > territory. That there was a huge amount of harassment, they > > > themselves > > > felt harassed, and certainly ordinary people were harassed, > > > but what > > > they kept coming back to every time was, you’d probably > > > have been > > > dead. > > > > > > You saw the fence built by the Indian > > > government at close quarters > > > – probably closer than you had planned (laughter, > > > audible) – I’d like > > > to know what you think of that. > > > > > > I have been to many countries. I have > > > seen many borders. I know of > > > the Palestinian border, but outside of that this is > > > certainly the most > > > imposing, dominating, scary, border post that I have come > > > across. I’ve > > > gone across the Germany-Poland border, where you’ve had > > > surveillance > > > equipment, you’ve had people with night shooting guns, > > > but in none of > > > those situations have I seen anything that looks as scary > > > as this > > > particular fence. The fact that we are neighbouring > > > countries, the > > > fact that we are meant to have a friendly relationship, is > > > no way > > > signified by the presence of a physical entity of this > > > sort. > > > > > > One of the things that also worries me is > > > that there are many > > > people who have friends, relatives, very close ones across > > > the border, > > > they have to travel one day to get to Rajshahi, apply for a > > > visa a > > > month in advance, the costs, the time, the preparation, all > > > of the > > > things that need to be done merely to be able to go across > > > to visit a > > > near one, simply cannot be condoned. > > > > > > Considering that India has played such an > > > important role in the > > > liberation of Bangladesh, one would have expected a very, > > > very > > > different relationship between these two countries. > > > Considering that > > > we call ourselves members of SAARC [South Asian Association > > > for > > > Regional Cooperation], we’d expect far more cordial > > > relations between > > > ourselves. The fence, the fact that the BSF is so > > > trigger-happy, the > > > fact that 52 Bangladeshis have been gunned down in the last > > > 6 months, > > > the fact that it is a zone of terror for local people and > > > for our BDR, > > > speaks volumes of what it should not be about. > > > > > > How high is the fence? > > > > > > The gate itself, I’m trying to remember > > > now, large black gates, > > > double gates, about ten feet tall, 20 feet wide, I think. > > > But the > > > fence, the barbed wire extends above that, [what, it > > > extends above the > > > gate?] well, not above the gate itself, but it’s higher > > > than the gate, > > > stretching on both sides, as far as the eye can see. > > > > > > It’s still quite early, but how do you > > > look back at the incident? > > > > > > That’s a big question. My first concern > > > is that I have to finish my > > > story so I have to work. The story is incomplete, it needs > > > to be told, > > > not only the Brahmaputra story, but given this situation, > > > the border > > > story. I think it becomes even more important today, > > > knowing what I do > > > now, that we question the structures that makes such a > > > situation > > > possible. But, before anything else, I need to thank the > > > many, many > > > people who have done so much for me over this period of > > > time. > > > > > > And again, I reflect upon this in a > > > different way. Obviously, I am > > > happy that I am out of danger. But I also reflect upon two > > > issues, > > > one, the fact that while I was detained and later released > > > by India, I > > > have actually been arrested by my own country in the course > > > of doing > > > what happens to be my duty, what is in the public interest. > > > I also > > > think it is important to reflect on the fact that at a > > > political > > > level, at an official level, there are these huge > > > differences between > > > our nations, but at a human level, at a personal level, > > > there exists > > > huge camaraderie. > > > > > > Some of the people who did the most in > > > getting me released were my > > > colleagues, my journalist friends across the border in > > > India, and of > > > course, Mahasweta Devi. She had, as you know, inaugurated > > > CchobiMela > > > V, so, in a way this reflects how we as professionals, as > > > artists, as > > > individuals, have this camaraderie, have this openness, > > > have this > > > mutual respect, have this pull toward each other, which > > > does not seem > > > to be reflected by the people who govern our nations. > > > _________________________________________ > > > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the > > > city. > > > Critiques & Collaborations > > > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net > > > with subscribe in the subject header. > > > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > > > List archive: > > > > > > > > _________________________________________ > > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > > Critiques & Collaborations > > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > > subscribe in the subject header. > > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > > List archive: > > > > > -- > Rajen. > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > subscribe in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> From rakesh.rnbdj at gmail.com Tue Jun 23 16:44:20 2009 From: rakesh.rnbdj at gmail.com (Rakesh Iyer) Date: Tue, 23 Jun 2009 16:44:20 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Lalgarh does not exist In-Reply-To: <129519.17023.qm@web94714.mail.in2.yahoo.com> References: <278217.64838.qm@web94701.mail.in2.yahoo.com> <129519.17023.qm@web94714.mail.in2.yahoo.com> Message-ID: Dear Subhrodip It's not just Bengal, but in the entire country, tribals have been the one community which has suffered very badly. I remember having read a no. of times that out of the total people who have been displaced due to development projects, the tribals constitute the dominant section (around 40% or more I remember) which is disproportionate to the percentage of population they form in the country. The tribals have been sent away from forests in the name of Forest Conservation Act and illegal encroachment of forest land. They have not been allowed to even use forest products for food and for other purposes. They are people who have lived in tune with forests without endangering them for so many years, and here are we who want to modernize them and civilize them, so we in the name of development have allowed cutting down of forests, and then accuse tribals of destroying forests. How shameful that we destroy forests and then accuse tribals of the same? I remember that in the year 2005 when there were Bihar elections, Ram Vilas Paswan had said that if his party were voted to power, Bihar would have a Muslim CM. Many had commented on this whether it was right or wrong. I and my friend Aashish (also a member of this forum) had a small conversation on this, and there are two things I remember we said to each other in that: Rakesh: (myself) ' yaar it would be a historic day when india has a muslim prime minister' Aashish: 'no. the historic day would be when india has a tribal prime minister.' And indeed it would be historic. Muslims and Dalits have at least got some amount of education, have some intellectuals supporting their causes, and are any day better off on any standard when compared to tribals. The tribals don't have an intellectual by and large, from their own brethren, who can support them and fight for them. Even those who point their cause like me come from non-tribal backgrounds. This shows the state of tribals in our country. Infact, the very word 'tribal' seems to bring notions of backwardness in the minds of us educated, which is quite wrong. Just yesterday, I saw a video portraying the achievements of the Gujarat govt under Modi. Somewhere, came the information about the 'VanBandhu yojana', which was said to bring the tribals to the level of development and modern standards of the urban people. So the tribals are not only considered underdeveloped (which they would be I believe), but they have to be modernized to that extent. Infact, the tribals were to be brought into the mainstream. It is utterly disgusting that whatever is tribal is considered backward, and notions of modernity are to be ingrained in them. I don't think people have a right to decide the benchmark of lifestyle for others beyond a point, especially on counts of modernity and backwardness. Also, who are we to decide development standards in terms of malls, multiplexes, 24 hr power supply and other things for them? There can be some common standards like health and education, but that's because those can be used as instruments to beter their own life and live well. How can culture and modernity decide development for them? The whole point about tribals itself needs to be seriously debated, both in terms of Lalgarh and even outside that. In the last 60 years or more, almost all the communities have got their voices heard in some way or the other. Upper castes, backward castes, Muslims, Yadavs, Ahirs, Jats, Gurjars, Meenas and what not. If there is one community which is left out, it's the tribals. And they deserve to be heard. They are the original inhabitants of this nation. They are the protectors of forests in our country. Regards Rakesh From sub_sengupta at yahoo.co.in Tue Jun 23 16:47:53 2009 From: sub_sengupta at yahoo.co.in (subhrodip sengupta) Date: Tue, 23 Jun 2009 16:47:53 +0530 (IST) Subject: [Reader-list] Very interesting Video - If authentic In-Reply-To: <192708.99995.qm@web57202.mail.re3.yahoo.com> References: <192708.99995.qm@web57202.mail.re3.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <117507.42957.qm@web94710.mail.in2.yahoo.com> Dear Kshmendra, Thanks for correcting me. It's 9/11. The Director of the movie New York, was saying that within a week about 20,000 asians, mostly Muslim men were lifted up the streets of New York and either detained under strict anti-terror laws, or worse, deported to Secret Special Interrogation Cells all over the world. Just remember a film maker on Kashmir saying how the Indian Censor Board forced him to cut off certain clips about the Army handling of people there. . . For more info please surf the net, there are always some authentic reports. I promise to do the same, unless some Good Samaritan takes out some time & complies with your request for general audience, after my entrances! Regards, Subhrodip.  ________________________________ From: Kshmendra Kaul To: subhrodip sengupta Cc: Readers list Yousuf Sarai. Sent: Tuesday, 23 June, 2009 4:23:17 PM Subject: Re: [Reader-list] Very interesting Video - If authentic Dear Subhrodip Plese do share info about "facts of NY interrogation after ....., World Trade Centre" (I presume you meant 9/11. Mumbai was 26/11) Mera knowledge-vowledge kuch khaas nahi hai. Just have varied interests and this List keeps stoking them and/or feeding them.  Kshmendra --- On Tue, 6/23/09, subhrodip sengupta wrote: From: subhrodip sengupta Subject: Re: [Reader-list] Very interesting Video - If authentic To: "Kshmendra Kaul" Cc: "Readers list Yousuf Sarai." Date: Tuesday, June 23, 2009, 2:59 PM Dear Kshmendra,  First, my regards to you for your broad base of knowledge. We have read interesting articles about countries transforming themselves from political backwardness and reforming Islam. Intersting indeed as his reference to bethoven. Seems to bring some welcome change to the culture, welcome by people. Bandein Mein Dum to hain. By the Way I just learnt about facts of NY interrogation after 26/11, World Trade Centre, sentiliating! Regards, Subhrodip. ________________________________ From: Kshmendra Kaul To: sarai list Sent: Monday, 22 June, 2009 2:46:32 PM Subject: [Reader-list] Very interesting Video - If authentic This is being circulated as a clip from Abu Dhabi TV  (29/12/06).. The logo on the screen is positively of Abu Dhabhi TV.   If authentic, this is a very interesting video showing comments on 'Arab World' by one referred to as "Dhiyaa Al-Musawi - Bahraini Intellectual"    http://switch5.castup.net/frames/20041020_MemriTV_Popup/video_480x360.asp?ai=214&ar=1363wmv&ak=null   Kshmendra           _________________________________________ reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. Critiques & Collaborations To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with subscribe in the subject header. To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> ________________________________ ICC World Twenty20 England '09 exclusively on YAHOO! CRICKET ICC World Twenty20 England '09 exclusively on YAHOO! CRICKET http://cricket.yahoo.com From sub_sengupta at yahoo.co.in Tue Jun 23 17:09:33 2009 From: sub_sengupta at yahoo.co.in (subhrodip sengupta) Date: Tue, 23 Jun 2009 17:09:33 +0530 (IST) Subject: [Reader-list] Lalgarh does not exist In-Reply-To: References: <278217.64838.qm@web94701.mail.in2.yahoo.com> <129519.17023.qm@web94714.mail.in2.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <201824.71924.qm@web94701.mail.in2.yahoo.com> Dear Rakesh,  Quite informative. Has our home minister forgot some of the quantitative techniques he used to use when in finance. The Maoists are not a regional party, I guess. Sri Ram Sene can be banned but not Rss and it's current allies. Yet government carries out far worse practise of Fashioning by ignorance the body polity, but how can BJP be banned? hahaha. How can CPM be banned even when it uses so many Goondas? The political equation shall spoil. BUt who says these maoists are a regional disaster. Under various names they'll spur and thrive, like the SIMI which even after being banned used DU premises to spread it's propaganda, or simply take up a new name! CPIML i believe has spread it's infuence over many states. Under such a condition what amount of counter terror shall be required to remove this so called terror? Gives me goose-flesh. Alas, humiliated,unaccepted, severed from honour family and means of Existance, these youth would spread all over India trying to take up arms, resoting to Guerilla methods. Many civilians will get wounded in such civil strife. By the way the main source of the weapons is ingeneous craft. True. Any idea what is the next? Camps of the Indian Army! Hahahaha. Regards the last part of Upliftment. What else is Democracy than Uplifting the ploretariat to the dergree of stupidity the Beurgeoise have already attained? Smile do not solve the problem, but we need more time to think on this. Women are backward. We can therefore have a woman speaker but limited access to powerful posts. Ditto with tribals. Meena's case is a sad one. Yeah the ribal word is itself as british as Native.. . . . . . ..  Hopefully we'd see more empowerment of tribals in the parliament, and more hopefully people who'd take transaltors and be listened to seriously, not people who for regional popularity put up a mock show in the parliament. Then, in the abscence of democracy in spirit and upliftment of quality of life, where stands the parliament, and who'd listen to us. NOt MR. Chidambaram, certainly. We could reach some esctacy under the NSA for talking for a banned organisation at most. Pain gives Moksha, rationalises a lot of things, as does pure joy. Trust me. Regards, Subhrodip. ________________________________ From: Rakesh Iyer To: subhrodip sengupta Cc: Readers list Yousuf Sarai. Sent: Tuesday, 23 June, 2009 4:44:20 PM Subject: Re: [Reader-list] Lalgarh does not exist Dear Subhrodip It's not just Bengal, but in the entire country, tribals have been the one community which has suffered very badly. I remember having read a no. of times that out of the total people who have been displaced due to development projects, the tribals constitute the dominant section (around 40% or more I remember) which is disproportionate to the percentage of population they form in the country. The tribals have been sent away from forests in the name of Forest Conservation Act and illegal encroachment of forest land. They have not been allowed to even use forest products for food and for other purposes. They are people who have lived in tune with forests without endangering them for so many years, and here are we who want to modernize them and civilize them, so we in the name of development have allowed cutting down of forests, and then accuse tribals of destroying forests. How shameful that we destroy forests and then accuse tribals of the same? I remember that in the year 2005 when there were Bihar elections, Ram Vilas Paswan had said that if his party were voted to power, Bihar would have a Muslim CM. Many had commented on this whether it was right or wrong. I and my friend Aashish (also a member of this forum) had a small conversation on this, and there are two things I remember we said to each other in that: Rakesh: (myself) ' yaar it would be a historic day when india has a muslim prime minister' Aashish: 'no. the historic day would be when india has a tribal prime minister.' And indeed it would be historic. Muslims and Dalits have at least got some amount of education, have some intellectuals supporting their causes, and are any day better off on any standard when compared to tribals. The tribals don't have an intellectual by and large, from their own brethren, who can support them and fight for them. Even those who point their cause like me come from non-tribal backgrounds. This shows the state of tribals in our country. Infact, the very word 'tribal' seems to bring notions of backwardness in the minds of us educated, which is quite wrong. Just yesterday, I saw a video portraying the achievements of the Gujarat govt under Modi. Somewhere, came the information about the 'VanBandhu yojana', which was said to bring the tribals to the level of development and modern standards of the urban people.. So the tribals are not only considered underdeveloped (which they would be I believe), but they have to be modernized to that extent. Infact, the tribals were to be brought into the mainstream. It is utterly disgusting that whatever is tribal is considered backward, and notions of modernity are to be ingrained in them. I don't think people have a right to decide the benchmark of lifestyle for others beyond a point, especially on counts of modernity and backwardness. Also, who are we to decide development standards in terms of malls, multiplexes, 24 hr power supply and other things for them? There can be some common standards like health and education, but that's because those can be used as instruments to beter their own life and live well. How can culture and modernity decide development for them? The whole point about tribals itself needs to be seriously debated, both in terms of Lalgarh and even outside that. In the last 60 years or more, almost all the communities have got their voices heard in some way or the other. Upper castes, backward castes, Muslims, Yadavs, Ahirs, Jats, Gurjars, Meenas and what not. If there is one community which is left out, it's the tribals. And they deserve to be heard. They are the original inhabitants of this nation. They are the protectors of forests in our country. Regards Rakesh ICC World Twenty20 England '09 exclusively on YAHOO! CRICKET http://cricket.yahoo.com From pawan.durani at gmail.com Tue Jun 23 17:14:03 2009 From: pawan.durani at gmail.com (Pawan Durani) Date: Tue, 23 Jun 2009 17:14:03 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] When Women blew Conch Shells Message-ID: <6b79f1a70906230444j1fc89cbbwb867c31e53529bae@mail.gmail.com> And some prefer not to notice this ..... Massive Relief Work by RSS in Cyclone Affected Sunderbans Hingalganj, June 5: It was anightmarish experience for 50-odd swayamsevaks who weredesperate to reach Hingalganj jeti ghat criss-crossing otherinaccessible riverine villages in the Sunderbans after Ailacyclone battered and ravaged the Bengal’s famousarchipelago of islands on May 25. The rivers Kalindi andRaimangal were turbulent and wind speed was not less than 60km per hour even 24 hours after the cyclone lashed theSunderbans. Chk the pictures at : http://www.sanghparivar.org/women-blew-conch-shells-to-welcome-swayamsevaks From pawan.durani at gmail.com Tue Jun 23 17:17:01 2009 From: pawan.durani at gmail.com (Pawan Durani) Date: Tue, 23 Jun 2009 17:17:01 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Sangh reaches where LF govt. failed Message-ID: <6b79f1a70906230447p45e31d94gd8985d40c22aff53@mail.gmail.com> Sangh reaches where LF govt. failed By Ranjit Roy * Women blew conch-shells to welcome swayamsevaks * Massive relief work by RSS in cyclone-affected Sunderbans HINGALGANJ: It was a nightmarish experience for 50-odd swayamsevaks who were desperate to reach Hingalganj Jetighat criss-crossing other inaccessible riverine villages in the Sunderbans after Aila cyclone battered and ravaged Bengal’s famous archipelago of islands on May 25. The rivers Kalindi and Raimangal were turbulent and wind speed was not less than 60 km per hour even 24 hours after the cyclone lashed the Sunderbans. They hired a large vessel with a capacity to carry about six tonnes relief materials for distributing among the cyclone-hit villagers separated from the mainland. Risking their lives, they finally reached Jetighat, Hemnagar, Mandirghat and Parghumta villages where thousands of marooned villagers had been awaiting the government relief for three days since the Aila blown away their hamlets. They had no food and drinking water during the past 72 hours. Indeed, the marooned villagers had lost all hopes to survive as the area remained inaccessible due to swelling of Dasha river following the cyclone. The team of swayamsevaks, led by North 24 Pargana Zila Karyavah Shri Sukumar Vaidya, was the first batch of volunteers to reach them braving nature’s fury. Initially, the starving villagers took swayamsevaks as state government relief employees and started to hurl abuses. However when the distressed villagers discovered that they were RSS volunteers and risked their lives to bring them relief materials, they were simply over-joyed and begged pardon for their initial mistake. Women blew conch-shells to welcome the swayamsevaks in their mud houses. Packets of dry food, water pouches, milk powder and clothes brought by swayamsevaks were distributed with full cooperation of the distressed villagers. This is the same area where the local CPI(M) MLA Gopal Gayen from Hingalganj was roughed up and the Chief Minister, Buddhadeb Bhattacharjee received abuses from the relief-deprived villagers on June 2. The distressed villagers in Hingalganj block in the riverine Sunderbans made it amply clear that even in misery they had more respect for honest and hard-working swayamsevaks of the RSS than that for callous elected communist leaders, strutting about in the corridors of power. Nearly a fortnight after the cyclone Aila hit West Bengal’s coast, thousands of people are still stranded in the Sunderbans. People with boats have left, but many have no choice but to stay. The human misery is telling. “I have nothing left. Utensils, pans, plates and glasses. Even the three bags of rice, we had saved from the last harvest, are gone. It would have been good had we been given a house to live in by the administration. What else do the poor people have, money? My daughter has to be married off, but there’s nothing left,” Purnima Mondal, resident of Dakshin Yogeshganj near Bangladesh border said. The villagers here are facing an added misery as robbers from Bangladesh are raiding border villages as they left their homes and sheltered in relief camps. The RSS has a well-knit organisation in the Sunderbans under North and South 24 Parganas. There are ‘one teacher-one school’ establishments in 90 villages. Swayamsevaks of the two neighbouring districts have set up 32 relief camps and have been feeding about 30,000 cyclone-hit hapless villagers daily since May 26. The worst affected are the five blocks, Hasnabad, Najat, Sandeshkhali I & II and Hingalganj. Here 50 shakhas are affected due to large-scale inundation. Even after flooding, swayamsevaks are running two relief camps in Basantitala where cooked food is supplied to nearly 4,000 villagers daily. Akhil Bharatiya Prachar Pramukh, Shri Manmohan Vaidya, visited several relief camps in the affected areas in Hasnabad block in North 24 Parganas on June 3 and took a stock of the grim situation prevailing there. He was told that the RSS volunteers braved the storm and rains and started distributing relief to distressed villagers at Basanti, Sonakhali, Kultuli, Gosaba, Pathankhali, Hemnagar and Mandirghat within six hours after the Aila lashed villages in the Sunderbans on May 25. As the villagers have lost everything and have no means to cook rice, the meals are being cooked at the RSS relief centres on the main land and then transported by country boats to relief camps set up by sawyamsevaks in far-flung Sunderban islands daily. This mammoth relief operation requires huge amount of money. Shri Vaidya appealed to people all over the country to come forward at this time of crisis and shoulder some social responsibility by donating liberally to organisations like Bastuhara Sahayata Samiti, RSS Samaj Sewa Bharati, Friends of Tribal Society and Bharat Sevashram Sangh. http://sevabharathi.blogspot.com/2009/06/rss-relief-work-in-sunderbans.html From rakesh.rnbdj at gmail.com Tue Jun 23 17:24:19 2009 From: rakesh.rnbdj at gmail.com (Rakesh Iyer) Date: Tue, 23 Jun 2009 17:24:19 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Lalgarh does not exist In-Reply-To: <201824.71924.qm@web94701.mail.in2.yahoo.com> References: <278217.64838.qm@web94701.mail.in2.yahoo.com> <129519.17023.qm@web94714.mail.in2.yahoo.com> <201824.71924.qm@web94701.mail.in2.yahoo.com> Message-ID: Dear Subhrodip The biggest problem we fail to realize with organizations based on cadre and ideology, be it SIMI, RSS, BJP, Maoists or any other organization is what Anupam jee himself reminded me in a personal chat a couple of days back: 'They are based on discontent'. That is the crux of the problem. A SIMI is based on the fact that Muslims are discriminated against, and targetted during riots and investigations after terror attacks. A RSS is based on the fact that Hindus are pariah in their 'own' country, and are treated as second-class citizens, whereas Muslims and other minorities are appeased and taken care of. A BJP is based on the discontentment that Muslims and other minorities vote in large nos. to put Congress in power, which does nothing on the development front. Maoism is based on the discontentment of the tribals and the weaker sections of the society (weaker economically, socially and politically), which see the state taking away their resources from them without any due compensation and no development measures for them being undertaken. Also, they may be suffering from social and political violence against which they have no protection. Therefore, banning such organizations is not going to be the solution. A SIMI or a Bajrang Dal will simply change its name, and that's that. What helps is political countering of such ideology. On that account, I agree with Mr. Karat's observation that we need to politically counter such institutions. At another level too, banning is not considered right, which is at the level of democratic opinion. Since democracy allows people to express their views, it's believed that such organizations must be allowed to put their voice and express their views as well. My only contention is that all such organizations (not proven legally in case of SIMI so I exclude it), have been found to indulge in violence. Also, there is no foolproof way any citizen can state that they won't indulge in any violence in future too. Therefore, even if banning can't be done, what needs to be done is to keep such organizations under watch and certainly take them to task if they indulge in violence. Regarding SIMI, it's strange that the govt. (both the UPA and the NDA) have not been able to prove the involvement of SIMI in any crime. I don't understand why it has been banned then. I do agree that SIMI is a fundamentalist organization going by it's views, but then so is the RSS. Therefore, why should one be banned and not the other is only my contention. Regards Rakesh From kshmendra2005 at yahoo.com Tue Jun 23 18:17:09 2009 From: kshmendra2005 at yahoo.com (Kshmendra Kaul) Date: Tue, 23 Jun 2009 05:47:09 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Reader-list] Can Pakistan shut down Lashkar-i-Taiba? Message-ID: <271261.51934.qm@web57202.mail.re3.yahoo.com> Can Pakistan shut down Lashkar-i-Taiba? Sunday, 21 Jun, 2009   LONDON: ( If Pakistan’s battle against the Taliban seems difficult, a much tougher challenge lies ahead: deciding what to do about the Lashkar-i-Taiba militant group it once nurtured to fight India in Kashmir, according to an analysis report by Reuters. )   Security experts from the United States and India believe the Pakistan Army and its Inter-Services Intelligence (ISI) agency could shut down the group blamed for last year’s attacks on Mumbai — if they choose to do so.   ‘The Pakistan Army could do it and the ISI could tell them where to find those guys in a heartbeat,’ said Bruce Riedel, a former CIA officer who led a review of strategy in Afghanistan and Pakistan for President Barack Obama.   ‘If they wanted to shut them down they could,’ said B. Raman, a former Additional Secretary at India’s Research and Analysis Wing (R&AW) intelligence agency. ‘They can do it, but they don’t want to do it because they look upon it as a strategic asset.’   But Samina Yasmeen, a professor at the University of Western Australia who is researching a book on the Lashkar-i-Taiba (commonly referred to as the LeT), said the reality on the ground may be more complicated. Over the years, she said, the LeT had given birth to splinter groups which had broken free both of the Pakistan Army and ISI, and even from the LeT leadership.   ‘There are elements within the Lashkar that are not under the control of the army anymore. They really moved on a trajectory that people did not expect,’ she said. ‘After 9/11 there was a section that emerged within the Lashkar that may not be under the control of the Lashkar leadership.’   Indian Prime Minister Manmohan Singh pushed the LeT to the top of the agenda last week by effectively telling President Asif Ali Zardari that India would not re-open peace talks until Pakistan acted against the organization and its leaders.   He seems to have won support in the West, where the LeT is seen as potentially as big a danger as al Qaeda. ‘I think we have to regard the Lashkar-i-Taiba as much a threat to us as any other part of the al Qaeda system,’ said Riedel.   But finding a consensus on what Pakistan can, should and will do about the LeT is like asking people to agree on how to label many different shades of grey. Like many militant groups, the LeT was born out of the CIA-backed jihad against the Soviets in Afghanistan and then began operations in Kashmir in 1993, Indian analysts say.   According to Raman, the LeT is the biggest militant group in Pakistan, with a larger presence even than the Taliban, and a charitable wing, the Jamaat ud-Dawa, which rather like Hamas in Gaza also carries out humanitarian work. With land, property and madrasas all over Pakistan, it collaborated with al Qaeda while also offering its training infrastructure to Pakistanis from the diaspora, he said.   But unlike other militant groups it has been scrupulous in avoiding attacks inside Pakistan, thereby avoiding the wrath of the army that has now been turned on the Pakistani Taliban.   Capability and Willingness For security analysts, the two questions are whether the army and ISI can close down the LeT, and if they want to do so — the assumption being that this would have to be done by the country’s powerful military rather than the civilian government.   Riedel said he believed the capability was there.   He acknowledged that taking on the LeT — which is based in Punjab province, the main recruiting ground for the army — would be hard. ‘They are Punjabis. You are taking on the same constituencies from which the Pakistan Army and the ISI draw their own core supporters,’ he said, adding that you could probably find officers with cousins in the LeT.   ‘It’s become more and more difficult but I would not underestimate the ISI’s knowledge base. They would be able to bring people in,’ he said.   But Yasmeen said more problems could be created by targeting the leadership. ‘You limit their ability to have some possibility of controlling those below. The risk of splintering increases,’ she said.   November’s Mumbai attacks, which killed 166 people, offered hints about splits either within the ISI or the LeT — for the first time Jews and westerners were targeted, risking an American backlash.   Raman said for this reason he was not convinced the ISI as an institution — as opposed to individual officers — had ordered the attacks.   ‘I’ve not seen any convincing evidence to show that the ISI as an institution gave the order,’ he said. ‘They would have seen to it that they did not attack westerners.’   The distinction is important since the ISI as an institution would be unlikely to take action without backing from the army — whose chief General Ashfaq Kayani was formerly the ISI head.   Yasmeen said another possible explanation for Mumbai was splintering within the LeT, since its leader Hafiz Saeed, who was released from house arrest this month, had always been clear the group’s focus was on India, rather than on a global agenda.   Whatever the truth about Mumbai, the question of whether the army actually wants to shut down the LeT is quite separate.   India has long complained that Pakistan selectively targets militants who threaten domestic stability, like the Pakistani Taliban in the Swat valley, while leaving alone those who can be used against India or to extend its influence in Afghanistan. It is an argument that appears to be gaining currency in the west.   ‘Pakistan sort of compartmentalizes the various militant threats,’ a US defense official said, adding the offensive underway against the Pakistani Taliban in the tribal areas was designed to stop a threat to Pakistan.   ‘And so we haven’t seen anything to indicate a strategic re-orientation in Pakistan at this time,’ he said.   Analysts say the army may be rethinking its attitude to militants after it lost control of the Pakistani Taliban, which then overran the Swat valley and began encroaching on Punjab.   But giving up the LeT, seen as a ‘force multiplier’ in the event of an invasion by India — rather like citizens trained in civil defense — would be another step altogether.   Would the army chief turn against the LeT?   ‘My sense of Kayani is that he is very pragmatic. He hasn’t accepted that India is not a threat to Pakistan,’ said Yasmeen. ‘From Kayani’s point of view, does he want to deny himself the possibility of using all trained and semi-trained people?’   That question returns to the Catch 22 of India-Pakistan relations. Without peace, Pakistan may never fully turn against the LeT. And India will not offer peace talks until it does so.   http://www.dawn.com/wps/wcm/connect/dawn-content-library/dawn/news/pakistan/09-can-pakistan-shut-down-lashkar-i-taiba-szh--05       var href = document.location.href; href = href.substring(0,href.indexOf("?")); document.write(href);         From kshmendra2005 at yahoo.com Tue Jun 23 18:52:44 2009 From: kshmendra2005 at yahoo.com (Kshmendra Kaul) Date: Tue, 23 Jun 2009 06:22:44 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Reader-list] Islamic Reform Message-ID: <23400.65994.qm@web57203.mail.re3.yahoo.com> A few days back there was a conversation that touched upon various issues concerning Islam, the Quranic Word and the Hadeeth.   Those who may be further interested might like to go through this website  http://islamicreform.org/   They might also like to read about - Edip Yuksel at http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Edip_Yuksel   - "Quran Alone" movement at http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Qur%27an_alone   - "Tolu e Islam" (followers also known as Parvezis) at http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tolu-e-Islam     Kshmendra   From sub_sengupta at yahoo.co.in Tue Jun 23 23:14:52 2009 From: sub_sengupta at yahoo.co.in (subhrodip sengupta) Date: Tue, 23 Jun 2009 23:14:52 +0530 (IST) Subject: [Reader-list] [Lalgarh Does not Exist] Message-ID: <782279.15968.qm@web94713.mail.in2.yahoo.com> Maoist spokesman detained in Kolkata for questioning. Finally to threaten these people you yeild the rod in central Kolkata. Nothing new, they had always been. Now specially when govt gets itchy over NAxalite's strategy, what aft But detaining spokespersons or message bearers is against politics.. Naah these guys wanna rub out the traits of Maoism from all books in India, something in which the Khilji's failed. Bad luck, Mr. Chakravorty, you are in the police net. As for Central Kol., it has always woitnessed police attrocities for the last decade. Off course there might be some bomb, etc. but isnt this guy a herald. A few women were similarly held in Delhi recently on same allegations without substantial proof as if thus the ideology can be erased and the system and the ranks rationalised. This came hopefully as a reaction to a pro-people's assembly where some noted activist threated to arrange a Dharna before writers and BUddhadev's office, with off course many Maoists, if CPI(ML) was banned. The ideology is clearly more dangerous and revolutionary than the army! Messing up things will definitely not help, Mr. Bhattacharya! LAlgarh lives on, as a revolution. Does First War of Independance( Ok revolt of 1857 exist?) Love Cricket? Check out live scores, photos, video highlights and more. Click here http://cricket.yahoo.com From blauloretta at yahoo.com Wed Jun 24 12:41:15 2009 From: blauloretta at yahoo.com (Gustaff Harriman Iskandar) Date: Wed, 24 Jun 2009 00:11:15 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Reader-list] Set your twitter location to Tehran Message-ID: <978758.94907.qm@web51007.mail.re2.yahoo.com> If anyone is on twitter, set your location to Tehran and your time zone to GMT +3.30. Security forces are hunting for bloggers using location/timezone searches. The more people at this location, the more of a logjam it creates for forces trying to shut down Iranians' access to the internet. Cut & paste & please pass it on. Salam, - Gustaff From pawan.durani at gmail.com Wed Jun 24 12:58:03 2009 From: pawan.durani at gmail.com (Pawan Durani) Date: Wed, 24 Jun 2009 12:58:03 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Iran : Over 100% voted in 50 cities Message-ID: <6b79f1a70906240028n4b07f8c0ncbe42a6d14d3d5b@mail.gmail.com> An interesting story . Also i noticed that an Urdu newspaper in Mumbai kind of writing against the protest in Iran and having a full page color poster of Ahmadinejad. I was wondering what does Ahmadinejad do to deserve a poster in an Indian newspaper . Is it because Ahmadinejad is considered to be anti- US ? A non moderate muslim ? And why has an Urdu newspaper done this .......does it have to do with the mindset of readership.... ?......Just curious http://www.presstv.ir/detail/98711.htm?sectionid=351020101 Iran's Guardian Council has suggested that the number of votes collected in 50 cities surpass the number of people eligible to cast ballot in those areas. The council's Spokesman Abbas-Ali Kadkhodaei, who was speaking on the Islamic Republic of Iran Broadcasting (IRIB) Channel 2 on Sunday, made the remarks in response to complaints filed by Mohsen Rezaei -- a defeated candidate in the June 12 Presidential election. "Statistics provided by the candidates, who claim more than 100% of those eligible have cast their ballot in 80-170 cities are not accurate -- the incident has happened in only 50 cities," Kadkhodaei said. Kadkhodaei further explained that the voter turnout of above 100% in some cities is a normal phenomenon because there is no legal limitation for people to vote for the presidential elections in another city or province to which people often travel or commute. According to the Guardian Council spokesman, summering areas and places like district one and three in Tehran are not separable. The spokesman, however, said that the vote tally affected by such issues could be over 3 million and would not noticably affect the outcome of the election. He, however, added that the council could, at the request of the candidates, re-count the affected ballot boxes, and determine " whether the possible change in the tally is decisive in the election results," reported Khabaronline. Three of the four candidates contesting in last Friday's presidential election cried foul, once the Interior Ministry announced the results - according to which incumbent President Mahmoud Ahmadinejad was declared the winner with almost two-thirds of the vote. Rezaei, along with Mir-Hossein Mousavi and Mehdi Karroubi, reported more than 646 'irregularities' in the electoral process and submitted their complaints to the body responsible for overseeing the election -- the Guardian Council. Mousavi and Karroubi have called on the council to nullify Friday's vote and hold the election anew. This is while President Ahmadinejad and his Interior Minister Sadeq Mahsouli have rejected any possibility of fraud, saying that the election was free and fair. From rajen786uppinangady at gmail.com Wed Jun 24 14:42:10 2009 From: rajen786uppinangady at gmail.com (Rajendra Bhat Uppinangadi) Date: Wed, 24 Jun 2009 14:42:10 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] [Lalgarh Does not Exist] In-Reply-To: <782279.15968.qm@web94713.mail.in2.yahoo.com> References: <782279.15968.qm@web94713.mail.in2.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <7271ec560906240212i3e741362s2c2a70ddbfe08e9a@mail.gmail.com> Dear All, any citizen, in his / her excercise of rights of freedom to expression can express his/her views in democratic India, but taking laws into their own hands as a way of demonstration of protest is not acceptable in any society, as this violence not only hurts the innocents, but also destroys the civil liberties of citizens and violence only begets more of it. Be it naxalites, maoists, fanatics of any faith, when they resort to violent means of addressing the issues that they percieve as wrong, it destroys the societal harmony, liberties of the citizens, worse, it ushers in atrocities by the state machinery on every citizen under assumption that he/she is "sympathiser" of such violent actions of these groups. Binayak Sen and all other well meaning individuals of naxalites also fall in this category,just as a praveen togadia or afjal guru and geelanis and theestas of the nation. Let the laws of the land take firm and definite action against law breakers, whether in uniform or citizens of the nation, only rule of laws which if impartial, non partisan, without fear or favour acts on the deviants in the society, the democracy will floursh, dissent without violent action to express dissent is acceptable, but dissent in the form of violence is not acceptable in civil society. Regards, Rajen. On Tue, Jun 23, 2009 at 11:14 PM, subhrodip sengupta < sub_sengupta at yahoo.co.in> wrote: > Maoist spokesman detained in Kolkata for questioning. Finally to threaten > these people you yeild the rod in central Kolkata. Nothing new, they had > always been. Now specially when govt gets itchy over NAxalite's strategy, > what aft But detaining spokespersons or message bearers is against > politics.. Naah these guys wanna rub out the traits of Maoism from all books > in India, something in which the Khilji's failed. Bad luck, Mr. Chakravorty, > you are in the police net. As for Central Kol., it has always woitnessed > police attrocities for the last decade. Off course there might be some bomb, > etc. but isnt this guy a herald. A few women were similarly held in Delhi > recently on same allegations without substantial proof as if thus the > ideology can be erased and the system and the ranks rationalised. This came > hopefully as a reaction to a pro-people's assembly where some noted > activist threated to arrange a Dharna before writers and BUddhadev's office, > with > off course many Maoists, if CPI(ML) was banned. The ideology is clearly > more dangerous and revolutionary than the army! Messing up things will > definitely not help, Mr. Bhattacharya! LAlgarh lives on, as a revolution. > Does First War of Independance( Ok revolt of 1857 exist?) > > > Love Cricket? Check out live scores, photos, video highlights and > more. Click here http://cricket.yahoo.com > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > subscribe in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: -- Rajen. From labor at buchsenhausen.at Wed Jun 24 15:07:51 2009 From: labor at buchsenhausen.at (=?UTF-8?B?S8O8bnN0bGVyaGF1cyBCw7xjaHNlbmhhdXNlbg==?=) Date: Wed, 24 Jun 2009 11:37:51 +0200 Subject: [Reader-list] performIC Festival in Innsbruck and Schwaz, Austria Message-ID: <4A41F3EF.9090401@buchsenhausen.at> sorry for cross-posting! performIC 26. - 28. June, 2009 Innsbruck and Schwaz, Austria >From 26 to 28 June 2009, INNSBRUCK CONTEMPORARY presents a three day performance festival in Innsbruck, Austria. ARTISTS: Julia Bornefeld, columbusnext, EVA & ADELE, Sara Galaxia, Patrycja German, Marlene Haring, Michael Hieslmair, Isidora Ilić, Christian Jankowski, kozek hörlonski, Michele Di Menna, Matt Mullican, Tatsumi Orimoto, Michael Schuster, H + T Stegmayer. About INNSBRUCK CONTEMPORARY: Thirteen galleries and institutions have joined together for the purpose of strengthening and fostering high quality contemporary visual art in the area of Innsbruck and Tyrol. Innsbruck Contemporary supports the cultural and art scene on site, placing Innsbruck and Schwaz at the center of current international art discourse. The platform creates a network of local, national, and international positions in contemporary art in relation to the location of Tyrol. MEMBERS of INNSBRUCK CONTEMPORARY: aut. architektur und tirol, FO.KU.S Foto Kunst Stadtforum, Galerie Bernd Kugler, Galerie im Taxispalais, Galerie Elisabeth & Klaus Thoman, Galerie Johann Widauer, Künstlerhaus Büchsenhausen, Kunstpavillon of the Tiroler Künstlerschaft, Kunstraum Innsbruck, medien.kunst.tirol, Stadtgalerie Schwaz, Stadtturmgalerie of the Tiroler Künstlerschaft, Tiroler Landesmuseum Ferdinandeum. Detailed information on the performances and the other events can be found here: http://www.innsbruckcontemporary.at/images/ICA4_09b_perform.pdf Schedule: FRIDAY, June 26 6.00 pm Reception and Introduction Kunstraum Innsbruck, Maria-Theresien-Strasse 34, Arkadenhof 6.30 pm Sara Glaxia: ARTRAT Kunstraum Innsbruck, Maria-Theresien-Strasse 34, Arkadenhof Host: medien.kunst.tirol 7.30 pm Julia Bornefeld: Alpenliebe – Grundlos glücklich Maria-Theresien-Strasse, northern part Host: Galerie Elisabeth & Klaus Thoman 8.30 pm Tatsumi Orimoto: Punishment Domplatz, Altstadt Host: Kunstraum Innsbruck and medien.kunst.tirol 9.30 pm kozek hőrlonski feat. Red Ruby: blacknightlightwhite Kunstpavillon der Tiroler Künstlerschaft, Rennweg 8a SATURDAY, June 27 11.00 am Opening Galerie im Taxispalais, Maria-Theresien-Strasse 45 11.45 am Marlene Haring Galerie im Taxispalais, Maria-Theresien-Strasse 45 1.00 pm EVA & ADELE: Welcome-Performance/Stairs-Performance/Edition Futuring Kunstraum Innsbruck, Maria-Theresien-Str 34, Arkadenhof 2.00 pm Lunch-Buffet at the Hőrtnaglpassage 3.00 pm Patrycja German: 1, 2, 3, 4 Galerie Bernd Kugler, Burggraben 6/II (Hőrtnaglpassage) 4.00 pm Matt Mullican: Lecture on my performance work Galerie Johann Widauer, Erlerstrasse 13 5.00 pm Michael Schuster: Autofocusfalle Interactive Photographic Installation FO.KU.S – Foto Kunst Stadtforum 6.00 pm The Park Tells Stories Sound installation at the platform at Waltherpark Hosts: aut. architektur und tirol and columbosnext 7.30 pm Michael Hieslmair: Alpine Remix – Stages and Touristic Theme Parks Isidora Ilić: Voices_Gazes_Traces Künstlerhaus Büchsenhausen, Weiherburggasse 13 10.00 pm Christian Jankowski: The day we met Karaoke-Performance at the Kunstraum Innsbruck Maria-Theresien-Strasse 34, Arkadenhof SUNDAY, June 28 2.00 pm H+T Stegmayer: sleeping artists | fetish – collecting Tiroler Landesmuseum Ferdinandeum, project room, Museumstrasse 15 3.00 pm Ferdinandeum: departure of the shuttle bus to Schwaz 4.00 pm Michele Di Menna Silberbergwerk Schwaz, Alte Landstrasse 3a, 6130 Schwaz Host: Stadtgalerie Schwaz Registration: office at stadtgalerieschwaz.at From c.anupam at gmail.com Wed Jun 24 15:52:45 2009 From: c.anupam at gmail.com (anupam chakravartty) Date: Wed, 24 Jun 2009 15:52:45 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] [Lalgarh Does not Exist] In-Reply-To: <7271ec560906240212i3e741362s2c2a70ddbfe08e9a@mail.gmail.com> References: <782279.15968.qm@web94713.mail.in2.yahoo.com> <7271ec560906240212i3e741362s2c2a70ddbfe08e9a@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <341380d00906240322q1cd53a83m477568847044e3a5@mail.gmail.com> dear rajen, you should have included the politicians, the police officials, CRPF members who take violent measures to quell violence. its ironical but true as well as in several places in andhra pradesh, manipur, kashmir. politicians are biggest sympathiser of such actions..they are equally responsible. instead of question why such violent forms of dissent are happening across the nation, you are just discussing what forms of dissent should be employed. why there should be so much of strife? unless you dont understand and express your thoughts about that talking merely about violence becomes irrelevant. second, inclusion of binayak sen and teesta setalvad along with praveen togadia makes your argument really weak here. because you seem to have one yardstick to measure everyone -- either you are with us ( the so-called law abiding citizens) or you are an enemy of the state. however problems in this nation exist in particular as it is a diverse country. even several state security agencies do not employ similar measures in tackling with the issues in chattisgarh to quell naxalite movement, while keeping the communal rioting at bay. so how are presenting binayak sen and praveen togadia in the same pedestal. the word "sympathiser" has several connotations. you can sympathise with the cause that a particular movement is raising but may not sympathise the means by which solutions to the problem are being taken by these banned organisations. -thanks anupam On 6/24/09, Rajendra Bhat Uppinangadi wrote: > Dear All, > > any citizen, in his / her excercise of rights of freedom to expression > can express his/her views in democratic India, but taking laws into their > own hands as a way of demonstration of protest is not acceptable in any > society, as this violence not only hurts the innocents, but also destroys > the civil liberties of citizens and violence only begets more of it. Be it > naxalites, maoists, fanatics of any faith, when they resort to violent > means > of addressing the issues that they percieve as wrong, it destroys the > societal harmony, liberties of the citizens, worse, it ushers in atrocities > by the state machinery on every citizen under assumption that he/she is > "sympathiser" > of such violent actions of these groups. Binayak Sen and all other well > meaning individuals of naxalites also fall in this category,just as a > praveen togadia or afjal guru and geelanis and theestas of the nation. Let > the laws of the land take firm and definite action against law breakers, > whether in uniform or citizens of the nation, only rule of laws which if > impartial, non partisan, without fear or favour acts on the deviants in the > society, the democracy will floursh, dissent without violent action to > express dissent is acceptable, but dissent in the form of violence is not > acceptable in civil society. > > Regards, > > Rajen. > On Tue, Jun 23, 2009 at 11:14 PM, subhrodip sengupta < > sub_sengupta at yahoo.co.in> wrote: > > > Maoist spokesman detained in Kolkata for questioning. Finally to threaten > > these people you yeild the rod in central Kolkata. Nothing new, they had > > always been. Now specially when govt gets itchy over NAxalite's strategy, > > what aft But detaining spokespersons or message bearers is against > > politics.. Naah these guys wanna rub out the traits of Maoism from all > books > > in India, something in which the Khilji's failed. Bad luck, Mr. > Chakravorty, > > you are in the police net. As for Central Kol., it has always woitnessed > > police attrocities for the last decade. Off course there might be some > bomb, > > etc. but isnt this guy a herald. A few women were similarly held in Delhi > > recently on same allegations without substantial proof as if thus the > > ideology can be erased and the system and the ranks rationalised. This > came > > hopefully as a reaction to a pro-people's assembly where some noted > > activist threated to arrange a Dharna before writers and BUddhadev's > office, > > with > > off course many Maoists, if CPI(ML) was banned. The ideology is clearly > > more dangerous and revolutionary than the army! Messing up things will > > definitely not help, Mr. Bhattacharya! LAlgarh lives on, as a revolution. > > Does First War of Independance( Ok revolt of 1857 exist?) > > > > > > Love Cricket? Check out live scores, photos, video highlights and > > more. Click here http://cricket.yahoo.com > > _________________________________________ > > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > > Critiques & Collaborations > > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > > subscribe in the subject header. > > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > > List archive: > > > > > -- > Rajen. > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > subscribe in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> From rajen786uppinangady at gmail.com Wed Jun 24 16:39:30 2009 From: rajen786uppinangady at gmail.com (Rajendra Bhat Uppinangadi) Date: Wed, 24 Jun 2009 16:39:30 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] [Lalgarh Does not Exist] In-Reply-To: <341380d00906240322q1cd53a83m477568847044e3a5@mail.gmail.com> References: <782279.15968.qm@web94713.mail.in2.yahoo.com> <7271ec560906240212i3e741362s2c2a70ddbfe08e9a@mail.gmail.com> <341380d00906240322q1cd53a83m477568847044e3a5@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <7271ec560906240409m7d155ac0w80b44bd1862e6c59@mail.gmail.com> dear Anupam, a citizen of the nation only becomes the politician , police officer or law keeper and elite security personnel, Any one who breaks law has to be under scanner of same rule of laws, democracy in practice is where irrespective of the status, faith or contents of the purse of the individual, rule of laws prevails. But we see different yardsticks being used by our citizens on different occassions, just one example, a 28 year old lady is in custody of SIT in mumbai for months now, with investigation not showing any progress or proof, but we talk of our concerns,worry about some, selectively, not about this lady, because she is labeled as sadhvi.? What about human rights of this lady and eleven others who for the sake of vote gains, division of votes were arrested by a ruthless fuedal leader using honest cop, Hemanth karkare.? On Wed, Jun 24, 2009 at 3:52 PM, anupam chakravartty wrote: > dear rajen, > > you should have included the politicians, the police officials, CRPF > members > who take violent measures to quell violence. its ironical but true as well > as in several places in andhra pradesh, manipur, kashmir. politicians are > biggest sympathiser of such actions..they are equally responsible. instead > of question why such violent forms of dissent are happening across the > nation, you are just discussing what forms of dissent should be employed. > why there should be so much of strife? unless you dont understand and > express your thoughts about that talking merely about violence becomes > irrelevant. > > second, inclusion of binayak sen and teesta setalvad along with praveen > togadia makes your argument really weak here. because you seem to have one > yardstick to measure everyone -- either you are with us ( the so-called law > abiding citizens) or you are an enemy of the state. however problems in > this nation exist in particular as it is a diverse country. even several > state security agencies do not employ similar measures in tackling with > the issues in chattisgarh to quell naxalite movement, while keeping the > communal rioting at bay. so how are presenting binayak sen and praveen > togadia in the same pedestal. the word "sympathiser" has several > connotations. you can sympathise with the cause that a particular movement > is raising but may not sympathise the means by which solutions to the > problem are being taken by these banned organisations. > > -thanks anupam > > On 6/24/09, Rajendra Bhat Uppinangadi > wrote: > > > Dear All, > > > > any citizen, in his / her excercise of rights of freedom to expression > > can express his/her views in democratic India, but taking laws into their > > own hands as a way of demonstration of protest is not acceptable in any > > society, as this violence not only hurts the innocents, but also destroys > > the civil liberties of citizens and violence only begets more of it. Be > it > > naxalites, maoists, fanatics of any faith, when they resort to violent > > means > > of addressing the issues that they percieve as wrong, it destroys the > > societal harmony, liberties of the citizens, worse, it ushers in > atrocities > > by the state machinery on every citizen under assumption that he/she is > > "sympathiser" > > of such violent actions of these groups. Binayak Sen and all other well > > meaning individuals of naxalites also fall in this category,just as a > > praveen togadia or afjal guru and geelanis and theestas of the nation. > Let > > the laws of the land take firm and definite action against law breakers, > > whether in uniform or citizens of the nation, only rule of laws which if > > impartial, non partisan, without fear or favour acts on the deviants in > the > > society, the democracy will floursh, dissent without violent action to > > express dissent is acceptable, but dissent in the form of violence is not > > acceptable in civil society. > > > > Regards, > > > > Rajen. > > On Tue, Jun 23, 2009 at 11:14 PM, subhrodip sengupta < > > sub_sengupta at yahoo.co.in> wrote: > > > > > Maoist spokesman detained in Kolkata for questioning. Finally to > threaten > > > these people you yeild the rod in central Kolkata. Nothing new, they > had > > > always been. Now specially when govt gets itchy over NAxalite's > strategy, > > > what aft But detaining spokespersons or message bearers is against > > > politics.. Naah these guys wanna rub out the traits of Maoism from all > > books > > > in India, something in which the Khilji's failed. Bad luck, Mr. > > Chakravorty, > > > you are in the police net. As for Central Kol., it has always > woitnessed > > > police attrocities for the last decade. Off course there might be some > > bomb, > > > etc. but isnt this guy a herald. A few women were similarly held in > Delhi > > > recently on same allegations without substantial proof as if thus the > > > ideology can be erased and the system and the ranks rationalised. This > > came > > > hopefully as a reaction to a pro-people's assembly where some noted > > > activist threated to arrange a Dharna before writers and BUddhadev's > > office, > > > with > > > off course many Maoists, if CPI(ML) was banned. The ideology is > clearly > > > more dangerous and revolutionary than the army! Messing up things will > > > definitely not help, Mr. Bhattacharya! LAlgarh lives on, as a > revolution. > > > Does First War of Independance( Ok revolt of 1857 exist?) > > > > > > > > > Love Cricket? Check out live scores, photos, video highlights and > > > more. Click here http://cricket.yahoo.com > > > _________________________________________ > > > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > > > Critiques & Collaborations > > > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > > > subscribe in the subject header. > > > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > > > List archive: > > > > > > > > > > -- > > Rajen. > > _________________________________________ > > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > > Critiques & Collaborations > > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > > subscribe in the subject header. > > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > subscribe in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> -- Rajen. From kauladityaraj at gmail.com Wed Jun 24 16:56:53 2009 From: kauladityaraj at gmail.com (Aditya Raj Kaul) Date: Wed, 24 Jun 2009 16:56:53 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] No Shopian-type protest over murder of women by Hizb militants Message-ID: <6353c690906240426n9901815m22a8942d56126483@mail.gmail.com> No Shopian-type protest over murder of women by Hizb militants *Visit* - http://kashmiris-in-exile.blogspot.com/2009/06/no-protest-over-murder-of-women-by-hizb.html PTI June 23, 2009 *Srinagar *In the uproar following the Shopian rape and murders, two separate brutal killings of women by militants in Jammu and Kashmir have almost gone unnoticed. While the first case was that of 17-year-old Nigeen Awan which took place barely few kilometres away from the place in Shopian of South Kashmir which is witnessing protests over the alleged rape and murder of two women, the second took place at Sopore where the 45-year-old lady Rashma Jan was shot dead because her daughter and son-in-law worked with police force. But these two deaths -- barbaric in their own way -- have gone little noticed. Police reasons that its because of the fear as these gruesome killings were undertaken by militants of prominent terror group Hizbul Mujahideen, armed wing of Jamaat-e-Islamia. *read more at* - http://kashmiris-in-exile.blogspot.com/2009/06/no-protest-over-murder-of-women-by-hizb.html do post your comments! thanks Aditya Raj kaul From pawan.durani at gmail.com Wed Jun 24 17:00:51 2009 From: pawan.durani at gmail.com (Pawan Durani) Date: Wed, 24 Jun 2009 17:00:51 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] No Shopian-type protest over murder of women by Hizb militants In-Reply-To: <6353c690906240426n9901815m22a8942d56126483@mail.gmail.com> References: <6353c690906240426n9901815m22a8942d56126483@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <6b79f1a70906240430r6277dbe8v6ac8208060ed9db0@mail.gmail.com> Double standards ..... Who knows that these Hizb are the rapists in Shopian case as well. As for the rest , it seems they justify this rape as probably this rape was in committed in the name of .,.... you know what Shamless people .... On Wed, Jun 24, 2009 at 4:56 PM, Aditya Raj Kaul wrote: > No Shopian-type protest over murder of women by Hizb militants > > *Visit* - > http://kashmiris-in-exile.blogspot.com/2009/06/no-protest-over-murder-of-women-by-hizb.html > > PTI > June 23, 2009 > > *Srinagar *In the uproar following the Shopian rape and murders, two > separate brutal killings of women by militants in Jammu and Kashmir have > almost gone unnoticed. > > While the first case was that of 17-year-old Nigeen Awan which took place > barely few kilometres away from the place in Shopian of South Kashmir which > is witnessing protests over the alleged rape and murder of two women, the > second took place at Sopore where the 45-year-old lady Rashma Jan was shot > dead because her daughter and son-in-law worked with police force. > > But these two deaths -- barbaric in their own way -- have gone little > noticed. Police reasons that its because of the fear as these gruesome > killings were undertaken by militants of prominent terror group Hizbul > Mujahideen, armed wing of Jamaat-e-Islamia. > *read more at* - > http://kashmiris-in-exile.blogspot.com/2009/06/no-protest-over-murder-of-women-by-hizb.html > > do post your comments! > > thanks > > Aditya Raj kaul > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with subscribe in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> From c.anupam at gmail.com Wed Jun 24 17:03:19 2009 From: c.anupam at gmail.com (anupam chakravartty) Date: Wed, 24 Jun 2009 17:03:19 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] [Lalgarh Does not Exist] In-Reply-To: <7271ec560906240409m7d155ac0w80b44bd1862e6c59@mail.gmail.com> References: <782279.15968.qm@web94713.mail.in2.yahoo.com> <7271ec560906240212i3e741362s2c2a70ddbfe08e9a@mail.gmail.com> <341380d00906240322q1cd53a83m477568847044e3a5@mail.gmail.com> <7271ec560906240409m7d155ac0w80b44bd1862e6c59@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <341380d00906240433r680b22b0p905807488da8af9e@mail.gmail.com> Dear Rajen, Sir i can cite millions of similar examples from the north east, who have been killed selectively for the past 19 years from Assam, Manipur, Nagaland. You may not even find chargesheets for them. the only witness is a lone wife, or a mother or a sister. you know people usually dont lie about missing people and suffer the prying eyes of the society. At least we know that Sadhvi Pragya is in a custody. What are your thought 1192 persons including wife of one Satish Mishra burnt in the Godhra train carnage, who is officially still missing in the police records. these are the seeds of discontent that lawmakers are sowing -- the so called morally upright. i have no sympathies for sadhvi or any one who is abetting or encouraging these activities even in the case of naxals but i would be interested as to find the root of all these discontentment. however, if i am asked to rank naxals and hindu right or muslim fundamentalism or zionism or violent evangelism, i would say naxals or maoists are more real and have a better ideology than fundamentalists. at least in their aims, they are supposed to be fighting for the cause of the downtrodden. my only cause of concern is the use of violent means to gather support and selective killing of the feudal lord by the naxals. however, fundamentalism doesnt deserve a space in the democracy. never...never. it is evil to think that i am a hindu that's why i should rule the land and be the law...its purely evil. thanks anupam On 6/24/09, Rajendra Bhat Uppinangadi wrote: > > dear Anupam, > > a citizen of the nation only becomes the politician , police officer or > law keeper and elite security personnel, Any one who breaks law has to be > under scanner of same rule of laws, democracy in practice is where > irrespective of the status, faith or contents of the purse of the > individual, rule of laws prevails. But we see different yardsticks being > used by our citizens on different occassions, just one example, a 28 year > old lady is in custody of SIT in mumbai for months now, with investigation > not showing any progress or proof, but we talk of our concerns,worry about > some, selectively, not about this lady, because she is labeled as sadhvi.? > What about human rights of this lady and eleven others who for the sake of > vote gains, division of votes were arrested by a ruthless fuedal leader > using honest cop, Hemanth karkare.? > > On Wed, Jun 24, 2009 at 3:52 PM, anupam chakravartty wrote: > >> dear rajen, >> >> you should have included the politicians, the police officials, CRPF >> members >> who take violent measures to quell violence. its ironical but true as well >> as in several places in andhra pradesh, manipur, kashmir. politicians are >> biggest sympathiser of such actions..they are equally responsible. instead >> of question why such violent forms of dissent are happening across the >> nation, you are just discussing what forms of dissent should be employed. >> why there should be so much of strife? unless you dont understand and >> express your thoughts about that talking merely about violence becomes >> irrelevant. >> >> second, inclusion of binayak sen and teesta setalvad along with praveen >> togadia makes your argument really weak here. because you seem to have one >> yardstick to measure everyone -- either you are with us ( the so-called >> law >> abiding citizens) or you are an enemy of the state. however problems in >> this nation exist in particular as it is a diverse country. even several >> state security agencies do not employ similar measures in tackling with >> the issues in chattisgarh to quell naxalite movement, while keeping the >> communal rioting at bay. so how are presenting binayak sen and praveen >> togadia in the same pedestal. the word "sympathiser" has several >> connotations. you can sympathise with the cause that a particular movement >> is raising but may not sympathise the means by which solutions to the >> problem are being taken by these banned organisations. >> >> -thanks anupam >> >> On 6/24/09, Rajendra Bhat Uppinangadi >> wrote: >> >> > Dear All, >> > >> > any citizen, in his / her excercise of rights of freedom to >> expression >> > can express his/her views in democratic India, but taking laws into >> their >> > own hands as a way of demonstration of protest is not acceptable in any >> > society, as this violence not only hurts the innocents, but also >> destroys >> > the civil liberties of citizens and violence only begets more of it. Be >> it >> > naxalites, maoists, fanatics of any faith, when they resort to violent >> > means >> > of addressing the issues that they percieve as wrong, it destroys the >> > societal harmony, liberties of the citizens, worse, it ushers in >> atrocities >> > by the state machinery on every citizen under assumption that he/she is >> > "sympathiser" >> > of such violent actions of these groups. Binayak Sen and all other well >> > meaning individuals of naxalites also fall in this category,just as a >> > praveen togadia or afjal guru and geelanis and theestas of the nation. >> Let >> > the laws of the land take firm and definite action against law breakers, >> > whether in uniform or citizens of the nation, only rule of laws which if >> > impartial, non partisan, without fear or favour acts on the deviants in >> the >> > society, the democracy will floursh, dissent without violent action to >> > express dissent is acceptable, but dissent in the form of violence is >> not >> > acceptable in civil society. >> > >> > Regards, >> > >> > Rajen. >> > On Tue, Jun 23, 2009 at 11:14 PM, subhrodip sengupta < >> > sub_sengupta at yahoo.co.in> wrote: >> > >> > > Maoist spokesman detained in Kolkata for questioning. Finally to >> threaten >> > > these people you yeild the rod in central Kolkata. Nothing new, they >> had >> > > always been. Now specially when govt gets itchy over NAxalite's >> strategy, >> > > what aft But detaining spokespersons or message bearers is against >> > > politics.. Naah these guys wanna rub out the traits of Maoism from all >> > books >> > > in India, something in which the Khilji's failed. Bad luck, Mr. >> > Chakravorty, >> > > you are in the police net. As for Central Kol., it has always >> woitnessed >> > > police attrocities for the last decade. Off course there might be some >> > bomb, >> > > etc. but isnt this guy a herald. A few women were similarly held in >> Delhi >> > > recently on same allegations without substantial proof as if thus the >> > > ideology can be erased and the system and the ranks rationalised. This >> > came >> > > hopefully as a reaction to a pro-people's assembly where some noted >> > > activist threated to arrange a Dharna before writers and BUddhadev's >> > office, >> > > with >> > > off course many Maoists, if CPI(ML) was banned. The ideology is >> clearly >> > > more dangerous and revolutionary than the army! Messing up things will >> > > definitely not help, Mr. Bhattacharya! LAlgarh lives on, as a >> revolution. >> > > Does First War of Independance( Ok revolt of 1857 exist?) >> > > >> > > >> > > Love Cricket? Check out live scores, photos, video highlights and >> > > more. Click here http://cricket.yahoo.com >> > > _________________________________________ >> > > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. >> > > Critiques & Collaborations >> > > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with >> > > subscribe in the subject header. >> > > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list >> > > List archive: >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > -- >> > Rajen. >> > _________________________________________ >> > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. >> > Critiques & Collaborations >> > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with >> > subscribe in the subject header. >> > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list >> >> > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> >> _________________________________________ >> reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. >> Critiques & Collaborations >> To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with >> subscribe in the subject header. >> To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list >> >> List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> > > > > > -- > Rajen. > > From chandni.parekh at gmail.com Wed Jun 24 17:41:10 2009 From: chandni.parekh at gmail.com (Chandni Parekh) Date: Wed, 24 Jun 2009 17:41:10 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Looking for social experiments conducted in India In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: By the way, my Posterous site for psychology and mental health news: http://psychologynews.posterous.com/ ---------- Forwarded message ---------- From: Shubhangi Swarup Date: 2009/6/24 Subject: looking for social experiments conducted in India Dear Chandni, I am currently looking for social experiments conducted in India by universities, management schools, companies, NGOs (actually anyone, provided it is done systematically) for an article OPEN magazine will be carrying. The experiments could either shed light on human psychology or validate/question a theory applicable to human behavior. Could u please put up my request on your posterous, Karmayog, and fwd me relevant emails you might have got? or forward this mail to relevant people. my email address is shubhangi at openmedianetwork.in Thanks, Shubhangi Swarup Special Correspondent- Features OPEN magazine www.openthemagazine.com From pawan.durani at gmail.com Wed Jun 24 18:02:06 2009 From: pawan.durani at gmail.com (Pawan Durani) Date: Wed, 24 Jun 2009 18:02:06 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] How to deal with Pakistan ? Message-ID: <6b79f1a70906240532j45de0824mc78f51393560c1e9@mail.gmail.com> Two interesting news item which caught my eye over last few weeks... In one news Pakistan said it would not hand over to India its citizens suspected of causing the 26/11 mayhem but would try them under its own laws. Link : http://sify.com/news/fullstory.php?a=jgyqKacggfh&title=Pakistan_not_to_hand_over_26_11_suspects_to_India&?vsv=TopHP1 Interestingly on June 9th pakistan hands over islamic terrorists to China . The news reads : The spokesman in Islamabad, confirming the extradition, said the ETIM militants had actually been arrested after they attacked Pakistani security forces in the tribal areas. Ten of the over two-dozen arrested Chinese were handed over to Beijing after it was established that they belonged to the ETIM, which Beijing describes as an armed secessionist group with bases in Xingjian-Uighur Autonomous Region (XUAR) in the northwest of China, and in Pakistan Link : http://letusbuildpakistan.blogspot.com/2009/06/amir-mir-pakistan-extradites-ten.html Are the two standards a reason for us to believe that Pakistan has considered India as a spineless soft state which only shouts but does not ACT ? Just wondering ............ From sub_sengupta at yahoo.co.in Wed Jun 24 18:27:33 2009 From: sub_sengupta at yahoo.co.in (subhrodip sengupta) Date: Wed, 24 Jun 2009 18:27:33 +0530 (IST) Subject: [Reader-list] Reeling from discontention Message-ID: <287206.23125.qm@web94712.mail.in2.yahoo.com> Our Father Who art in Heaven, Holy be thy name. Thine Kingdom Come Thy Will be done, On Earth as it is in Heaven..... Do not bring us to the time of trial But Deliver us from Evil! Most convent educated children would somewhere recognise these lines. They are taken from the Bible, Father have something to do with the 3 religions........ Among the 3,Evil has preponderence in chrishtianity.Reminds us of Lucifer, Adam and Eve. A tradition which both Protestants and Roman Catholics share. To imbibe lines from the bible into each and every student's mind. To make all non-christians part of the christian ceremony with prayers to start with and then with every kind of possible sublimial practice, be it compulsory X-mas participation. Thankfully Baptism is not compulsory. . . . Yet these have a long tradition of superiority in Communication skills and given the degree of Competition parents flock to send in their children to these schools and accept these traditions. Worse. The children who blurt in through the prayers are given lead punishment. Even Hindu, Jain and Muslim teachers repeat the prayer, for the Lord in front, read the Head Of the Institution, inevitably a Christian needs to be thanked for the food they eat! Compulsary donations are taken to errect elaborate Altar of Mother Mary and Jesus. My objection is not as much with infusion of faith in God(if it results in more self confidence, so be it) as is with the forcing of Religion on others. Then there is Satanism, a kind of political and philosophical critique of chrishtianity. And one has the right to be an aethist. NO, this is accepted and continued. Cursed. . . .. . . Love Cricket? Check out live scores, photos, video highlights and more. Click here http://cricket.yahoo.com From sub_sengupta at yahoo.co.in Wed Jun 24 18:55:05 2009 From: sub_sengupta at yahoo.co.in (subhrodip sengupta) Date: Wed, 24 Jun 2009 18:55:05 +0530 (IST) Subject: [Reader-list] reeling from discontention 2. Message-ID: <25132.27440.qm@web94709.mail.in2.yahoo.com> I wonder why intentionally young minds are blindfolded and strayed off from a healthy normal life. I'd point out to some CO-ED schools. Friendship between students is such a bliss. And I do not see any reason to condense and collect all relations in different cups. OK there are probhlems with free mixing, there are sexual abuses and Unsafe sexual practices, but whatevver one does one can not rule them out. The point seems to infuse a kind of feudal culture instead, which could maintain the authority and social strata. In most Co-ed schools there is seggregation of mal and female students within the same class. FEmales sit in one group and males in other. The dangerous outcome of this is simply the existance of distict mentalities and culture and enragement of Battle of the Sexes. Infatuation replaces Attraction, and Affair, friendship. As they 'grow up'(12th standards),Male and female students, dancing enjoying in a group are ostracised, and even laughing and touching each other(hugging) is strictly a NO-NO. What do such creatures get out of life, if they miss the joy of relating? The outcome is lack of Gender awareness, Even after 12 years, people do not understand each other physically and psychologically, and on seeing a female lady doctor for children in a tatto in her hands, their eyes pop-out. The whole objective ruined. Who would else inforce strict codes of rights( rights in school?) and sensitisation? My problem goes a little furter. . . . . . . . . . . .  . . . . . . .. .  . . Do girls prefer to stay out of boys, and what is the mentality vice Versa? Then seggregate them, who are we to enforce our views on them. It becomes thus impossible to track indiviual responses to form a group and sexual behaviour at a tender age, something that would be good to map vis-a-vis culture. And who are these people to act as moral guardians. I remember getting ostracised once in front of a teacher, when a group of girls wanting to play(outdoor games for the pervert mind) once got into my bedroom. Privacy is subjective it must be respected. The rights to engage and not to engage re-inforce each other, It seems a gross code is simply to inforce discipline to do away with problems. Gender abuses thus, may be kept in dark, with people fearing each other. I found true friendship between students and teachers inter-se as condusive to work culture, rather than contrary, as it gives a certain inspiration to strech ones mind. The best culture I found was a bit out of DU(where people come in fresh out of seggregationary schools and fear each other, rather than certain types, interested in gossips and AGE barrier, it does exist, empathy was missing), it was in Institute of Human Behaviour and Allied Sciences. Show of Elation had alas, been so 'unnatural' before. This is Conditioning, mass conditioning. ICC World Twenty20 England '09 exclusively on YAHOO! CRICKET http://cricket.yahoo.com From sub_sengupta at yahoo.co.in Wed Jun 24 19:08:23 2009 From: sub_sengupta at yahoo.co.in (subhrodip sengupta) Date: Wed, 24 Jun 2009 19:08:23 +0530 (IST) Subject: [Reader-list] Fw: [Lalgarh Does not Exist] Message-ID: <562946.1431.qm@web94702.mail.in2.yahoo.com> which thred ever put a mark against the rock. sometimes one needs a hard rope instead, tuffnes forces one to think. What makes us believe than Varun was planning a genocide? Wasn't it merely a logic, forcing people to think? The forces of Authority are intense, and because of street ac romm difference chaotic when it comes to public good. cRITISISING ANY PRACTICE OR RELIGION AMOUNTS TO causing harm to acts done by people in common good, All that needs be done and is done is some how to try and keep it intact, not for the people. How else can legal reforms be executed. Thousands of intellectuls, even beurocrats can be easily sidelined for its stake. Tuffness is not chaotic, rebells will be dominated, but the changing mind and consciousness of people can change the route of logic of society. And sometimes one needs to behave erratic, unlike his present nature, and without subjugation That creates a problem and sets us to think, at least on a cost-benefit basis,and realise others problems. NAxals are not an exception, and tribal's rights to dignity, undeniable. If someone stands for downtrodden classes and becomes branded an evil, Cursed be God. ----- Forwarded Message ---- From: anupam chakravartty To: sarai list Sent: Wednesday, 24 June, 2009 5:03:19 PM Subject: Re: [Reader-list] [Lalgarh Does not Exist] Dear Rajen, Sir i can cite millions of similar examples from the north east, who have been killed selectively for the past 19 years from Assam, Manipur, Nagaland. You may not even find chargesheets for them. the only witness is a lone wife, or a mother or a sister. you know people usually dont lie about missing people and suffer the prying eyes of the society. At least we know that Sadhvi Pragya is in a custody. What are your thought 1192 persons including wife of one Satish Mishra burnt in the Godhra train carnage, who is officially still missing in the police records. these are the seeds of discontent that lawmakers are sowing -- the so called morally upright. i have no sympathies for sadhvi or any one who is abetting or encouraging these activities even in the case of naxals but i would be interested as to find the root of all these discontentment. however, if i am asked to rank naxals and hindu right or muslim fundamentalism or zionism or violent evangelism, i would say naxals or maoists are more real and have a better ideology than fundamentalists. at least in their aims, they are supposed to be fighting for the cause of the downtrodden. my only cause of concern is the use of violent means to gather support and selective killing of the feudal lord by the naxals. however, fundamentalism doesnt deserve a space in the democracy. never...never. it is evil to think that i am a hindu that's why i should rule the land and be the law...its purely evil. thanks anupam On 6/24/09, Rajendra Bhat Uppinangadi wrote: > > dear Anupam, > >    a citizen of the nation only becomes the politician , police officer or > law keeper and elite security personnel, Any one who breaks law has to be > under  scanner of same rule of laws, democracy in practice is where > irrespective of the status, faith or contents of the  purse of the > individual, rule of laws prevails. But we see different yardsticks being > used by our citizens on different occassions, just one example, a 28 year > old lady is in custody of SIT in mumbai for months now, with investigation > not showing any progress or proof, but we talk of our concerns,worry about > some,  selectively, not about this lady, because she is labeled as sadhvi.? > What about human rights of this lady and eleven others who for the sake of > vote gains, division of votes were arrested by a ruthless fuedal leader > using honest cop, Hemanth karkare.? > > On Wed, Jun 24, 2009 at 3:52 PM, anupam chakravartty wrote: > >> dear rajen, >> >> you should have included the politicians, the police officials, CRPF >> members >> who take violent measures to quell violence. its ironical but true as well >> as in several places in andhra pradesh, manipur, kashmir. politicians are >> biggest sympathiser of such actions...they are equally responsible. instead >> of question why such violent forms of dissent are happening across the >> nation, you are just discussing what forms of dissent should be employed. >> why there should be so much of strife? unless you dont understand and >> express your thoughts about that talking merely about violence becomes >> irrelevant. >> >> second, inclusion of binayak sen and teesta setalvad along with praveen >> togadia makes your argument really weak here. because you seem to have one >> yardstick to measure everyone -- either you are with us ( the so-called >> law >> abiding citizens) or you are an enemy of the state. however problems in >> this nation exist in particular as it is a diverse country. even several >> state security agencies do not employ similar measures in tackling with >> the issues in chattisgarh to quell naxalite movement, while keeping the >> communal rioting at bay. so how are presenting binayak sen and praveen >> togadia in the same pedestal. the word "sympathiser" has several >> connotations. you can sympathise with the cause that a particular movement >> is raising but may not sympathise the means by which solutions to the >> problem are being taken by these banned organisations. >> >> -thanks anupam >> >> On 6/24/09, Rajendra Bhat Uppinangadi >> wrote: >> >> > Dear All, >> > >> >    any citizen, in his / her excercise of rights of freedom to >> expression >> > can express his/her views in democratic India, but taking laws into >> their >> > own hands as a way of demonstration of protest is not acceptable in any >> > society, as this violence not only hurts the innocents, but also >> destroys >> > the civil liberties of citizens and violence only begets more of it. Be >> it >> > naxalites, maoists, fanatics of any faith, when they resort to violent >> > means >> > of addressing the issues that they percieve as wrong, it destroys the >> > societal harmony, liberties of the citizens, worse, it ushers in >> atrocities >> > by the state machinery on every citizen under assumption that he/she is >> > "sympathiser" >> > of such violent actions of these groups. Binayak Sen and all other well >> > meaning individuals  of naxalites also fall in this category,just as a >> > praveen togadia or afjal guru and geelanis and theestas of the nation. >> Let >> > the laws of the land take firm and definite action against law breakers, >> > whether in uniform or citizens of the nation, only rule of laws which if >> > impartial, non partisan, without fear or favour acts on the deviants in >> the >> > society, the democracy will floursh, dissent without violent action to >> > express dissent is acceptable, but dissent in the form of violence is >> not >> > acceptable in civil society. >> > >> > Regards, >> > >> > Rajen. >> > On Tue, Jun 23, 2009 at 11:14 PM, subhrodip sengupta < >> > sub_sengupta at yahoo.co.in> wrote: >> > >> > > Maoist spokesman detained in Kolkata for questioning. Finally to >> threaten >> > > these people you yeild the rod in central Kolkata. Nothing new, they >> had >> > > always been. Now specially when govt gets itchy over NAxalite's >> strategy, >> > > what aft But detaining spokespersons or message bearers is against >> > > politics.. Naah these guys wanna rub out the traits of Maoism from all >> > books >> > > in India, something in which the Khilji's failed. Bad luck, Mr. >> > Chakravorty, >> > > you are in the police net. As for Central Kol., it has always >> woitnessed >> > > police attrocities for the last decade. Off course there might be some >> > bomb, >> > > etc. but isnt this guy a herald. A few women were similarly held in >> Delhi >> > > recently on same allegations without substantial proof as if thus the >> > > ideology can be erased and the system and the ranks rationalised. This >> > came >> > > hopefully as a reaction to a pro-people's assembly where some noted >> > > activist threated to arrange a Dharna before writers and BUddhadev's >> > office, >> > > with >> > >  off course many Maoists, if CPI(ML) was banned. The ideology is >> clearly >> > > more dangerous and revolutionary than the army! Messing up things will >> > > definitely not help, Mr. Bhattacharya! LAlgarh lives on, as a >> revolution. >> > > Does First War of Independance( Ok revolt of 1857 exist?) >> > > >> > > >> > >      Love Cricket? Check out live scores, photos, video highlights and >> > > more. Click here http://cricket.yahoo.com >> > > _________________________________________ >> > > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. >> > > Critiques & Collaborations >> > > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with >> > > subscribe in the subject header. >> > > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list >> > > List archive: >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > -- >> > Rajen. >> > _________________________________________ >> > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. >> > Critiques & Collaborations >> > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with >> > subscribe in the subject header. >> > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list >> >> > List archive: <https://mail.sarai..net/pipermail/reader-list/> >> _________________________________________ >> reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. >> Critiques & Collaborations >> To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with >> subscribe in the subject header. >> To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list >> >> List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> > > > > > -- > Rajen. > > _________________________________________ reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. Critiques & Collaborations To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with subscribe in the subject header. To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> Love Cricket? Check out live scores, photos, video highlights and more. Click here http://cricket.yahoo.com From sub_sengupta at yahoo.co.in Wed Jun 24 19:10:55 2009 From: sub_sengupta at yahoo.co.in (subhrodip sengupta) Date: Wed, 24 Jun 2009 19:10:55 +0530 (IST) Subject: [Reader-list] Fw: reeling from discontention 2. Message-ID: <413067.18802.qm@web94701.mail.in2.yahoo.com> ----- Forwarded Message ---- From: subhrodip sengupta To: Readers list Yousuf Sarai. Sent: Wednesday, 24 June, 2009 6:55:05 PM Subject: reeling from discontention 2. I wonder why intentionally young minds are blindfolded and strayed off from a healthy normal life. I'd point out to some CO-ED schools(most of them). Friendship between students is such a bliss. And I do not see any reason to condense and collect all relations in different cups.. OK there are probhlems with free mixing, there are sexual abuses and Unsafe sexual practices, but whatevver one does one can not rule them out. The point seems to infuse a kind of feudal culture instead, which could maintain the authority and social strata. In most Co-ed schools there is seggregation of mal and female students within the same class. FEmales sit in one group and males in other. The dangerous outcome of this is simply the existance of distict mentalities and culture and enragement of Battle of the Sexes. Infatuation replaces Attraction, and Affair, friendship. As they 'grow up'(12th standards),Male and female students, dancing enjoying in a group are ostracised, and even laughing and touching each other(hugging) is strictly a NO-NO. What do such creatures get out of life, if they miss the joy of relating? The outcome is lack of Gender awareness, Even after 12 years, people do not understand each other physically and psychologically, and on seeing a female lady doctor for children in a tatto in her hands, their eyes pop-out. The whole objective ruined. Who would else inforce strict codes of rights( rights in school?) and sensitisation? My problem goes a little furter. . . . . . . . . . . .  . . .. . . . .. .  . . Do girls prefer to stay out of boys, and what is the mentality vice Versa? Then seggregate them, who are we to enforce our views on them. It becomes thus impossible to track indiviual responses to form a group and sexual behaviour at a tender age, something that would be good to map vis-a-vis culture. And who are these people to act as moral guardians.. I remember getting ostracised once in front of a teacher, when a group of girls wanting to play(outdoor games for the pervert mind) once got into my bedroom. Privacy is subjective it must be respected. The rights to engage and not to engage re-inforce each other, It seems a gross code is simply to inforce discipline to do away with problems. Gender abuses thus, may be kept in dark, with people fearing each other. I found true friendship between students and teachers inter-se as condusive to work culture, rather than contrary, as it gives a certain inspiration to strech ones mind. The best culture I found was a bit out of DU(where people come in fresh out of seggregationary schools and fear each other, rather than certain types, interested in gossips and AGE barrier, it does exist, empathy was missing), it was in Institute of Human Behaviour and Allied Sciences. Show of Elation had alas, been so 'unnatural' before. This is Conditioning, mass conditioning. ________________________________ ICC World Twenty20 England '09 exclusively on YAHOO! CRICKET ICC World Twenty20 England '09 exclusively on YAHOO! CRICKET http://cricket.yahoo.com From sub_sengupta at yahoo.co.in Wed Jun 24 19:11:13 2009 From: sub_sengupta at yahoo.co.in (subhrodip sengupta) Date: Wed, 24 Jun 2009 19:11:13 +0530 (IST) Subject: [Reader-list] Fw: Reeling from discontention Message-ID: <155368.77244.qm@web94703.mail.in2.yahoo.com> ----- Forwarded Message ---- From: subhrodip sengupta To: Readers list Yousuf Sarai. Sent: Wednesday, 24 June, 2009 6:27:33 PM Subject: Reeling from discontention Our Father Who art in Heaven, Holy be thy name. Thine Kingdom Come Thy Will be done, On Earth as it is in Heaven..... Do not bring us to the time of trial But Deliver us from Evil! Most convent educated children would somewhere recognise these lines. They are taken from the Bible, Father have something to do with the 3 religions........ Among the 3,Evil has preponderence in chrishtianity.Reminds us of Lucifer, Adam and Eve. A tradition which both Protestants and Roman Catholics share. To imbibe lines from the bible into each and every student's mind. To make all non-christians part of the christian ceremony with prayers to start with and then with every kind of possible sublimial practice, be it compulsory X-mas participation. Thankfully Baptism is not compulsory. . . . Yet these have a long tradition of superiority in Communication skills and given the degree of Competition parents flock to send in their children to these schools and accept these traditions. Worse. The children who blurt in through the prayers are given lead punishment. Even Hindu, Jain and Muslim teachers repeat the prayer, for the Lord in front, read the Head Of the Institution, inevitably a Christian needs to be thanked for the food they eat! Compulsary donations are taken to errect elaborate Altar of Mother Mary and Jesus. My objection is not as much with infusion of faith in God(if it results in more self confidence, so be it) as is with the forcing of Religion on others. Then there is Satanism, a kind of political and philosophical critique of chrishtianity. And one has the right to be an aethist. NO, this is accepted and continued. Cursed. . . .. . . ________________________________ ICC World Twenty20 England '09 exclusively on YAHOO! CRICKET ICC World Twenty20 England '09 exclusively on YAHOO! CRICKET http://cricket.yahoo.com From sub_sengupta at yahoo.co.in Wed Jun 24 19:17:08 2009 From: sub_sengupta at yahoo.co.in (subhrodip sengupta) Date: Wed, 24 Jun 2009 19:17:08 +0530 (IST) Subject: [Reader-list] Fw: Reeling from discontention Message-ID: <777969.68568.qm@web94708.mail.in2.yahoo.com> Dear moderator, How can one pst part 2 without part one? I am talking about practises that do exist not maligning the HOLY Bible. Ditto is the problem with compulsory Swaraswati puja, or making one do any peculiar rituals.. UNless u post it how will I complete my series? Do we not take certain things too lightly in life or is getting a brand name that important? Why should children stay neive? Regards Subhrodip. ----- Forwarded Message ---- From: subhrodip sengupta To: Readers list Yousuf Sarai. Sent: Wednesday, 24 June, 2009 7:11:13 PM Subject: Fw: Reeling from discontention ----- Forwarded Message ---- From: subhrodip sengupta To: Readers list Yousuf Sarai. Sent: Wednesday, 24 June, 2009 6:27:33 PM Subject: Reeling from discontention Our Father Who art in Heaven, Holy be thy name. Thine Kingdom Come Thy Will be done, On Earth as it is in Heaven..... Do not bring us to the time of trial But Deliver us from Evil! Most convent educated children would somewhere recognise these lines. They are taken from the Bible, Father have something to do with the 3 religions......... Among the 3,Evil has preponderence in chrishtianity.Reminds us of Lucifer, Adam and Eve. A tradition which both Protestants and Roman Catholics share. To imbibe lines from the bible into each and every student's mind. To make all non-christians part of the christian ceremony with prayers to start with and then with every kind of possible sublimial practice, be it compulsory X-mas participation. Thankfully Baptism is not compulsory. . . . Yet these have a long tradition of superiority in Communication skills and given the degree of Competition parents flock to send in their children to these schools and accept these traditions. Worse. The children who blurt in through the prayers are given lead punishment. Even Hindu, Jain and Muslim teachers repeat the prayer, for the Lord in front, read the Head Of the Institution, inevitably a Christian needs to be thanked for the food they eat! Compulsary donations are taken to errect elaborate Altar of Mother Mary and Jesus. My objection is not as much with infusion of faith in God(if it results in more self confidence, so be it) as is with the forcing of Religion on others. Then there is Satanism, a kind of political and philosophical critique of chrishtianity. And one has the right to be an aethist. NO, this is accepted and continued. Cursed. . . .. . . ________________________________ ICC World Twenty20 England '09 exclusively on YAHOO! CRICKET ________________________________ ICC World Twenty20 England '09 exclusively on YAHOO! CRICKET ICC World Twenty20 England '09 exclusively on YAHOO! CRICKET http://cricket.yahoo.com From aiindex at gmail.com Wed Jun 24 22:00:00 2009 From: aiindex at gmail.com (Harsh Kapoor) Date: Wed, 24 Jun 2009 18:30:00 +0200 Subject: [Reader-list] =?windows-1252?q?In_Solidarity_with_People=92s_Prot?= =?windows-1252?q?est_and_Resistance_in_Iran_-_=28An_SACW_Special_-?= =?windows-1252?q?_24_June_2009=29?= Message-ID: In Solidarity with People’s Protest and Resistance in Iran A Compilation of Statements, Reports, Analysis and Appeals in Wake of the Post Election Events of June 2009 A Special Issue of the South Asia Citizens Wire - 24 June 2009 sacw.net • June 2009 • (192k PDF)  Contents: Open letter of support to the demonstrators in Iran (Scholars from around the world) Do Not legitimise Ahmadinejad Government (A letter from Iranian Students in India) Statement by a Group of Iranian Anti-war Activists about Iran's Presidential Elections Neda, the image of Iran ( Masoud Golsorkhi) Marjan Satrapi and Mohsen Makhmalbaf speaking at the European Parliament on June 16, 2009 (Video) In solidarity (Hanif Yazdi) Iran: Myths and Realities - What do the people want? A look at the Media’s presentation of the protest movement (Azar Majedi) People of the world! We are your neighbours, friends, lovers, colleagues, and comrades (Maryiam Namazie and others) Iranian Documentary Filmmakers ask Iranian Radio and TV to stop lying about recent events Pakistan: Protest in Support of Iranian Workers Iran's election opens generational fissure ( Ramin Jahanbegloo) I speak for Mousavi and Iran (Mohsen Makhmalbaf) Letter to Khamenei (Afshin Ellian) Le régime paye son isolement international, par Azadeh Kian An Artist as President of the Islamic Republic of Iran?  (Shiva Balaghi ) Why the Islamic Republic Has Survived (Ervand Abrahamian) Bloggingheads TV discussion on Iran. (Between Reza Aslan and Eli Lake,) Global Electronic Sit-in In Solidarity with Iranians Protesting against the Rigged 2009 Presidential Elections The Daily Cartoon 20th June 2006 (The Independent) Robert Fisk’s World: In Tehran, fantasy and reality make uneasy bedfellows Robert Fisk: Khamenei is fighting for his own position as well as Ahmadinejad's The evolution of Iran's revolution ( Robin Wright) Interview: 'Crisis of Legitimacy' in Iran (Arang Keshavarzian) Theocracies Are Doomed. Thank God (Jon Meacham) No Matter Who Is President of Iran, They Would Stone Me (Lila Ghobady) (For non commercial and educational use only) READ FULL TEXT AT: http://www.sacw.net/free/sacwIRANspecialjune09.pdf From sub_sengupta at yahoo.co.in Wed Jun 24 22:51:44 2009 From: sub_sengupta at yahoo.co.in (subhrodip sengupta) Date: Wed, 24 Jun 2009 22:51:44 +0530 (IST) Subject: [Reader-list] Reeling from discontention part 1 Message-ID: <883365.76669.qm@web94701.mail.in2.yahoo.com> Without part 1, 2 makes little sense, just like a trailer it follows, instead of the entire movie. . . . . . . Our Father Who art in Heaven, Holy be thy name. Thine Kingdom Come Thy Will be done, On Earth as it is in Heaven..... Do not bring us to the time of trial But Deliver us from Evil! Most convent educated children would somewhere recognise these lines. They are taken from the Bible, Father have something to do with the 3 religions........ Among the 3,Evil has preponderence in chrishtianity.Reminds us of Lucifer, Adam and Eve.. A tradition which both Protestants and Roman Catholics share. To imbibe lines from the bible into each and every student's mind. To make all non-christians part of the christian ceremony with prayers to start with and then with every kind of possible sublimial practice, be it compulsory X-mas participation. Thankfully Baptism is not compulsory. . . . Yet these have a long tradition of superiority in Communication skills and given the degree of Competition parents flock to send in their children to these schools and accept these traditions. Worse. The children who blurt in through the prayers are given lead punishment. Even Hindu, Jain and Muslim teachers repeat the prayer, for the Lord in front, read the Head Of the Institution, inevitably a Christian needs to be thanked for the food they eat! Compulsary donations are taken to errect elaborate Altar of Mother Mary and Jesus. My objection is not as much with infusion of faith in God(if it results in more self confidence, so be it) as is with the forcing of Religion on others. Then there is Satanism, a kind of political and philosophical critique of chrishtianity. And one has the right to be an aethist. NO, this is accepted and continued. Cursed. . . .. . . ________________________________ ICC World Twenty20 England '09 exclusively on YAHOO! CRICKET ________________________________ ICC World Twenty20 England '09 exclusively on YAHOO! CRICKET ICC World Twenty20 England '09 exclusively on YAHOO! CRICKET http://cricket.yahoo.com From rakesh.rnbdj at gmail.com Wed Jun 24 23:04:39 2009 From: rakesh.rnbdj at gmail.com (Rakesh Iyer) Date: Wed, 24 Jun 2009 23:04:39 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Fw: reeling from discontention 2. In-Reply-To: <413067.18802.qm@web94701.mail.in2.yahoo.com> References: <413067.18802.qm@web94701.mail.in2.yahoo.com> Message-ID: Dear Subhrodip jee I am sorry on this account, but I am quite unlucky to have studied during my prime period of adolescence (Class 7th to Class 12th) in a boys' school at Bhopal. And then I managed to come to IIT-Madras, which is not different from my school I referred to, simply because there are 3 girls in my branch out of 37 students. What a pity! May be the govt. should seriously consider reserving 50% of all seats under each category (general, OBC, SC, ST) for women to empower them rather than wasting those seats in the Parliament, where the legislators' wives would gain entry. This will achieve so many objectives. For us, our interaction with girls will be great as required in the college (or so we all boys feel) and we will stop growing desperate (which we do in four years here). For the nation, the educated women would actually mean economic and social empowerment of women (after all, IIT women graduates are not going to be housewives and automatically get empowered socially and economically). What a win-win situation! I hope all Hindutva ideologues, Communist supporters and Centrist workers as well as others have no objection to such a step if it were to be taken. I also feel no boys or girls school should be allowed to be kept. We should have Co-Ed schools. On a serious note, I believe the problem is also about the way we look at women in our society. The woman is looked upon as a mother or a daughter. When a girl is raped somewhere say in a city in India, the words used for that in Hindi aren't 'ek ladki ke saath balatkaar kiya gaya', but 'ek ladki ki izzat looti gayee'. In other words, a girl's dignity can be torn to shreds if raped. Think of it. When India is pointed out as a mother by our Hindutva ideologues, some of them constantly refer to the fact that the mother is being raped. And I remember Aashish (one of my friends and also a member on this forum) who said ' This means that the father has gone away, the son has to take responsibility of the mother, and so if the mother is being raped, the son has to go and kill the rapist'. This immediately creates a resonance with the idea that Muslims (rapists) are raping the nation (mother) and Hindus (sons) have to save it. Look at even the abuses in Hindi used in our society. They are based on mother (maa ki.....) and sister (behen ki....) by and large. This gives us an indication of how females are looked down upon in the Indian society by and large. Now even Tamils in Chennai use such abuses, ironical in a society where ideologues like Periyar always stressed on equality of women. Look again at how we look at pre-marital sex. If a boy does it, everybody feels jealous. But when a woman does it, people just think of her as a prostitue in our society. So a boy doing such sex is fine, but for a woman it's unacceptable. Why? Look at the reaction one gets when one finds that one's girl is in love, and when one's boy is in love. After thinking of all this, one realizes why a girl's parents are always in worry right from the day she is born till she dies. She can be subjected to dowry, can be raped (and rape can still be dealt with, but what about the society which feels the rape victim is to be blamed and looked down upon, and decide that her dignity is torn to shreds), can be maimed and tortured, and our society accepts it. And what' s more, it gets further institutionalized. So much so, that a woman is the biggest enemy of a woman. Patel women were reported to have helped their husbands in burning Muslim women or even raping them. What a shame! We always hear tons of stories regarding burnings due to non-payment of dowry, and saas-bahu problems. A woman, in order to overcome patriarchial domination and prove her own worth, assaults her own daughter-in-law, or bahu, is that acceptable? And now we have the Mangalore pub attacks and attacks on girls on the Valentine's Day celebrations. Personally, I believe I am conservative, though the extent is difficult to tell. May be the reason is what you said Subhrodip jee, but yes I do feel awkward with girls easily mingling with boys when I am with boys (rarely will I be with girls, I don't have friends in them. I am so unlucky that even when I send friend requests to women on this forum, they are not accepted. And this is just about online talk, not personal meeting). However, I am not the moral police going to stop someone from this inter mingling, for that I believe is personal opinion and taste. And that is where I am liberal (if I am at all liberal, that is). So my point is that it's fine with me if people are conservative for themselves. What is wrong and should not be tolerated is their infringing upon other people's rights to do as they wish. Just because I don't like going to pubs doesn't mean I forcibly stop someone else from going to pubs. I can stay put at my home. It is all fine if you convince me by arguments that my stand is wrong, but using force for the same would be wrong. And equally, me using force to support my own arguments would also be wrong. The Togadias and the Thackerays may kindly re-consider their stands on such issues. Regards Rakesh From chintangirishmodi at gmail.com Thu Jun 25 01:46:09 2009 From: chintangirishmodi at gmail.com (Chintan) Date: Thu, 25 Jun 2009 01:46:09 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] What's Your Gift? Message-ID: Dear friends, This has been on my mind for a while. And I'm delighted to share it with you. Do make time to read this, and let me know what you think at whatsyourgiftproject at gmail.com Love Chintan *What's Your Gift?* The What's Your Gift? Project is based on a deep conviction that each one of us has gifts to offer, and that it is the sharing of these gifts in a spirit of service that can well become an organising principle for the way we live. This project is a humble effort to look for, document and share the stories of those beautiful people who've recognised their gifts and are using them generously for the benefit of others. The need for such stories is strongly felt at a time when people are beginning to lose their trust in being compassionate, reaching out, and helping others. They seek to be reassured that that money isn't such a reliable measure of happiness; that it is possible to do something just for the love of it; and that one can find a great sense of delight in knowing that one has been useful. Here are some stories I have come across recently: * A musician who takes people on trips to Ladakh and Kashmir -- trips that are less touristy, and more of an exploration into how our lifestyle choices impact the earth in hazardous ways, because of our callous preference for convenience and comfort over the health of the universe that sustains us in the first place * A social psychologist who devotes much of her time to connecting people that might be able to benefit, support and learn from each other -- a person who freely shares her contacts, resources, time, and energy with many who speak of her with grateful hearts * A filmmaker couple that hosts an open bookshelf, at home, as well as in their office -- anyone is welcome to come by and look at the books and pick whatever they like; the only rule being that the book shouldn't come back, it has to be passed on to someone else who again will pass it on. * A computer programmer who has built up a collection of poetry from spiritual traditions across the world -- poetry that he considers a spontaneous, beautiful gift in his life, and is happy to share with readers in faraway places through the daily mails he sends out * A college student who looks out for people with bare feet as he walks around his city, and buys footwear for those who have none I invite you to share stories of people you've come across, and urge you to look around for more. The idea is to compile these stories in the form of an e-book that would be freely shared as a gift. Do let us know how you'd like to volunteer. Sharing stories, helping designing posters, spreading the word -- there might be several different ways in which you could share your gifts to help this project. So do get in touch: whatsyourgiftproject at gmail.com And yes, please circulate this mail among your friends, family, colleagues, relatives, etc. :) PS: Many thanks to my friend Vinod, whose work and words inspired this project! From sub_sengupta at yahoo.co.in Thu Jun 25 02:55:09 2009 From: sub_sengupta at yahoo.co.in (subhrodip sengupta) Date: Thu, 25 Jun 2009 02:55:09 +0530 (IST) Subject: [Reader-list] Fw: Fw: reeling from discontention 2.:n a bit Gender sensitisation Message-ID: <664074.78941.qm@web94705.mail.in2.yahoo.com> " Friendliness is valued superior to friendship, Friendliness is a quality a talent to share warmth with people as and when you meet them, and with time, make friends. Friends are a codification of relationship, trying to condense friendliness into earthen clay. They develop out of friendship, but one must be friendly towards friends as well, else it becomes a world of enemies and liabilities. So one needs to be friendly towards people rather than making a fuss about friendship requests and quantifying them. To a friendly person even a perfect stranger gives joy he cares for none not even the soul" ( A bit self-stylised value taken from Osho, essence is more important than form) Dear Rakesh           You have done a great job by speaking your heart out. One big problem in fixing problems is tracing them out, you might be familiar with this. By naming, you have shown a certain quanta of courage. Any good social work in the name of Decorum, Security etc lacks courage in itself, be it gender sensitisation. And peculiarly on a broad basis, a Gender Sensitisation cell is missing, in Pune and Bengal at least, or people in such academic institutes lack knowledge of it's existence, know not about IIT's, but certainly at Nit dgp.. It would be really good and friendly if women and men could interact with each other on a friendly basis, it would help reducing crime rates, by double edge, the second reducing Brutal pornography, a special sect(I believe all adults are on this forum, if not may this serve for some missing sex-ed). On a personal account we had to take much initiaves to hold events, talks start a debate, and worse reduce anti-feminism by including how men get harrased due to harrasment of women and their anxiety for others safety, friendship and respect. We were shocked how blatantly identity is imposed and feminism was equated with leftism. If a woman steps on your foot accidentally and smiles, she's probably say sorry, not flaunt about insulting men. At all counts she does not deserve to be slapped. This guy would never burge before a male bully! There are horny men and women, may be but that does not necessarily demean the sense of purity or self esteem attached with the body. Worse cases are rare, not only by virtue of physical configuration but coz thats not in culture. One big trouble in Gender Sensitisation is institutional politics, and people preffer not to engage in a specific case or worse talk about people and problems, because they all know them, as a fellow, a teacher, a friend, a star, an enemy. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .  . . . .  .. . . . But membership to a committee is not compulsory, and taking at a primary level is not as dirty as what it could take on a later level. By ignoring individual traits, they are party to the same harrasment. And by the way, passing lewd comments, atalking, and oogling, causing discomfort all amount to sexual harrasment. Only by the end of the year all acheived was a group of minimally trained people having participated in talks created awareness who are careful about gender issues. NExt year on, they'd hopefully do some more good job. Ma'ki is very difficult to stop, had resisted it. The boyz school stuff.Seriously believe some kind of sex education is required by both male and female teachers. What kind of harrasment goes on there, imposing feminity on the boy and then abusing, not to mention crotch-grabbing game(while lightly it's yoga, in a fight mode,this releases hormones responsible for blood pressure, and could have neurological, sexual and cardiological effects), hitting gentials and then a few perv male teachers. And all this is institutionalised in proving manliness. The sect of psychologists who could possible thus explain male aggresiveness are evolutionary psychologists, and they make as much sense as evolutionary genetists do. These issues need to be understood, handbooks of legal framework, Practical manuals by experts based on real cases on locality should be compulsarily made availabe and understood, if not for creating sensitivity(in case one feels ignorance is bliss, there is no harrasment), also to protect males and females from misuse of rules and defaming allegations. The rules of the game should be clear and fair. But not so in practice. We can take up interesting issues later. Any individual should be left to interact at level he/ she wants so if they want a seperate institute, have it, but provide the basic ammentites of security. I empathise, with your trauma, but do not support your accusing females for putting down your request. This shows inferiority complex acquired by seeing and more of hearing. Women do become good friends as long as you control the situation. As social butterfly is chosen only by horny ones. Surely you can make some good friends by respecting individually, behaving step-and comfort manner, and that does not need physical contact.though a kind touch is humane. And I believe we'd be ostracised if we talk about our past affairs/ what men think about women and about what men thaink that women think that so on.......................... Many women have turned down my friend request too. BUT what I was saying was the futility of studying imborn traits if these could be conditioned. The result is a sublimial conflict, and lack of esteem. Friendliness and sensitisation go hand in hand, that's why orthodoxy is named thus. I seriously feel that major changes should be made in our education system, as a child who with great respect emulates his teacher should recieve the best caring support from him/her, and they should be ready to stand up and fight for their cause. Notion of quality of life, dignity and rights are eroded/formed somewhere there. Do one favour give your girl child or boy child to kiss each other as a mutual show of affection. Something bad happened to me for kissing a freind on the cheek in childhood. . . . . . . Regards, Subhrodip.   ________________________________ From: Rakesh Iyer To: subhrodip sengupta Cc: Readers list Yousuf Sarai. Sent: Wednesday, 24 June, 2009 11:04:39 PM Subject: Re: [Reader-list] Fw: reeling from discontention 2. Dear Subhrodip jee I am sorry on this account, but I am quite unlucky to have studied during my prime period of adolescence (Class 7th to Class 12th) in a boys' school at Bhopal. And then I managed to come to IIT-Madras, which is not different from my school I referred to, simply because there are 3 girls in my branch out of 37 students. What a pity! May be the govt. should seriously consider reserving 50% of all seats under each category (general, OBC, SC, ST) for women to empower them rather than wasting those seats in the Parliament, where the legis lators' wives would gain entry. This will achieve so many objectives. For us, our interaction with girls will be great as required in the college (or so we all boys feel) and we will stop growing desperate (which we do in four years here). For the nation, the educated women would actually mean economic and social empowerment of women (after all, IIT women graduates are not going to be housewives and automatically get empowered socially and economically). What a win-win situation! I hope all Hindutva ideologues, Communist supporters and Centrist workers as well as others have no objection to such a step if it were to be taken. I also feel no boys or girls school should be allowed to be kept. We should have Co-Ed schools. On a serious note, I believe the problem is also about the way we look at women in our society. The woman is looked upon as a mother or a daughter. When a girl is raped somewhere say in a city in India, the words used for that in Hindi aren't 'ek ladki ke saath balatkaar kiya gaya', but 'ek ladki ki izzat looti gayee'. In other words, a girl's dignity can be torn to shreds if raped. Think of it. When India is pointed out as a mother by our Hindutva ideologues, some of them constantly refer to the fact that the mother is being raped. And I remember Aashish (one of my friends and also a member on this forum) who said ' This means that the father has gone away, the son has to take responsibility of the mother, and so if the mother is being raped, the son has to go and kill the rapist'. This immediately creates a resonance with the idea that Muslims (rapists) are raping the nation (mother) and Hindus (sons) have to save it. Look at even the abuses in Hindi used in our society. They are based on mother (maa ki......) and sister (behen ki....) by and large. This gives us an indication of how females are looked down upon in the Indian society by and large. Now even Tamils in Chennai use such abuses, ironical in a society where ideologues like Periyar always stressed on equality of women. Look again at how we look at pre-marital sex. If a boy does it, everybody feels jealous. But when a woman does it, people just think of her as a prostitue in our society. So a boy doing such sex is fine, but for a woman it's unacceptable. Why? Look at the reaction one gets when one finds that one's girl is in love, and when one's boy is in love. After thinking of all this, one realizes why a girl's parents are always in worry right from the day she is born till she dies. She can be subjected to dowry, can be raped (and rape can still be dealt with, but what about the society which feels the rape victim is to be blamed and looked down upon, and decide that her dignity is torn to shreds), can be maimed and tortured, and our society accepts it. And what' s more, it gets further institutionalized. So much so, that a woman is the biggest enemy of a woman. Patel women were reported to have helped their husbands in burning Muslim women or even raping them. What a shame! We always hear tons of stories regarding burnings due to non-payment of dowry, and saas-bahu problems. A woman, in order to overcome patriarchial domination and prove her own worth, assaults her own daughter-in-law, or bahu, is that acceptable? And now we have the Mangalore pub attacks and attacks on girls on the Valentine's Day celebrations. Personally, I believe I am conservative, though the extent is difficult to tell. May be the reason is what you said Subhrodip jee, but yes I do feel awkward with girls easily mingling with boys when I am with boys (rarely will I be with girls, I don't have friends in them. I am so unlucky that even when I send friend requests to women on this forum, they are not accepted. And this is just about online talk, not personal meeting). However, I am not the moral police going to stop someone from this inter mingling, for that I believe is personal opinion and taste. And that is where I am liberal (if I am at all liberal, that is). So my point is that it's fine with me if people are conservative for themselves. What is wrong and should not be tolerated is their infringing upon other people's rights to do as they wish. Just because I don't like going to pubs doesn't mean I forcibly stop someone else from going to pubs. I can stay put at my home. It is all fine if you convince me by arguments that my stand is wrong, but using force for the same would be wrong. And equally, me using force to support my own arguments would also be wrong. The Togadias and the Thackerays may kindly re-consider their stands on such issues. Regards Rakesh ________________________________ Love Cricket? Check out live scores, photos, video highlights and more. Click here. Love Cricket? Check out live scores, photos, video highlights and more. Click here http://cricket.yahoo.com From rehanhasanansari at yahoo.com Thu Jun 25 02:58:24 2009 From: rehanhasanansari at yahoo.com (rehan ansari) Date: Wed, 24 Jun 2009 14:28:24 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Reader-list] Scorched Message-ID: <927137.72757.qm@web51105.mail.re2.yahoo.com> Dear All, I saw a terrific production yesterday of Scorched, a play by Wajdi Mouwad, directed by Richard Rose, at the Tarragon Theatre in Toronto. I have no hesitation in saying that the first half of the play was the best writing and directing I have seen in theatre. The second half wasnt bad either :). Whats the point of saying this when a great theatrical production is a shooting star, but the next day I see this letter from Wajdi Mouwad on the old subject of art and politics and so here goes: Its a letter from playwright Wajdi Mouwad to Prime Minister Stpehen Harper. It was published in Le Devoir a few days ago. The translation below is thanks to John van Burek. the text is here: http://www.thewreckingball.ca/ Its a call to arms. ______________________________________________________________________ An open letter to Prime Minister Harper: Monsieur le premier ministre, We are neighbours. We work across the street from one another. You are >Prime Minister of the Parliament of Canada and I, across the way, am a >writer, theatre director and Artistic Director of the French Theatre at >the National Arts Centre (NAC). So, like you, I am an employee of the >state, working for the Federal Government; in other words, we are colleagues. Let me take advantage of this unique position, as one functionary to >another, to chat with you about the elimination of some federal grants in >the field of culture, something that your government recently undertook. >Indeed, having followed this matter closely, I have arrived at a few >conclusions that I would like to publicly share with you since, as I'm sure you will agree, this debate has become one of public interest. The Symbolism Firstly, it seems that you might benefit by surrounding yourself with >counsellors who will be attentive to the symbolic aspects of your >Government's actions. I am sure you know this but there is no harm in reminding ourselves that every public action denotes not only what it is >but what it symbolises. >For example, a Prime Minister who chooses not attend the opening ceremonies of the Olympics, claiming his schedule does not permit it, in no way reduces the symbolism which says that his absence might signify something else. This might signify that he wishes to denote that Canada supports the claims of Tibet. Or it might serve as a sign of protest over the way in which Beijing deals with human rights. If the Prime Minister insists that his absence is really just a matter of timing, whether he likes it or not, this will take on symbolic meaning that commits the entire country. The symbolism of a public gesture will always outweigh the technical explanations. Declaration of war Last week, your government reaffirmed its manner of governing unilaterally, this time on a domestic issue, in bringing about reductions in granting programs destined for the cultural sector. A mere matter of budgeting, you say, but one which sends shock waves throughout the cultural milieu –rightly or wrongly, as we shall see- for being seen as an expression of your contempt for that sector. The confusion with which your Ministers tried to justify those reductions and their refusal to make public the reports on the eliminated programs, only served to confirm the symbolic significance of that contempt. You have just declared war on the artists. Now, as one functionary to another, this is the second thing that I wanted to tell you: no government, in showing contempt for artists, has ever been able to survive. Not one. One can, of course, ignore them, corrupt them, seduce them, buy them, censor them, kill them, send them to camps, spy on them, but hold them in contempt, no. That is akin to rupturing the strange pact, made millennia ago, between art and politics. Contempt Art and politics both hate and envy one another; since time immemorial, they detest each other and they are mutually attracted, and it's through this dynamic that many a political idea has been born; it is in this dynamic that sometimes, great works of art see the light of day. Your cultural politics, it must be said, provoke only a profound consternation. Neither hate nor detestation, not envy nor attraction, nothing but numbness before the oppressive vacuum that drives your policies. This vacuum which lies between you and the artists of Canada, from a symbolic point of view, signifies that your government, for however long it lasts, will not witness either the birth of a political idea or a masterwork, so firm is your apparent belief in the unworthiness of that for which you show contempt. Contempt is a subterranean sentiment, being a mix of unassimilated jealousy and fear towards that which we despise. Such governments have existed, but not lasted because even the most detestable of governments cannot endure if it hasn't the courage to affirm what it actually is. Why is this? What are the reasons behind these reductions, which are cut from the same cloth as those made last year on the majority of Canadian embassies, who saw their cultural programming reduced, if not eliminated? The economies >that you have made are ridiculously small and the votes you might win with >them have already been won. For what reason, then, are you so bent on hurting the artists by denying them some of their tools? What are you seeking to extinguish and to gain? Your silence and your actions make one fear the worst for, in the end, we are quite struck by the belief that this contempt, made eloquent by your budget cuts, is very real and that you feel nothing but disgust for these people, these artists, who spend their time by wasting it and in spending the good taxpayers money, he who, rather than doing uplifting work, can only toil. And yet, I still cannot fathom your reasoning. Plenty of politicians, for the past fifty years, have done all they could to depoliticise art, to strip it of its symbolic import. They try the impossible, to untie that knot which binds art to politics. And they almost succeed! Whereas you, in the space of one week, have undone this work of chloroforming, by >awakening the cultural milieu, Francophone and Anglophone, and from coast to coast. Even if politically speaking they are marginal and negligible, one must never underestimate intellectuals, never underestimate artists; don't underestimate their ability to do you harm. A grain of sand is all-powerful I believe, my dear colleague, that you yourself have just planted the grain of sand that could derail the entire machine of your electoral campaign. Culture is, in fact, nothing but a grain of sand, but therein lays its power, in its silent front. It operates in the dark. That is its legitimate strength. It is full of people who are incomprehensible but very adept with words. They have voices. They know how to write, to paint, to dance, to sculpt, to sing, and they won't let up on you. Democratically speaking, they seek to annihilate your policies. They will not give up. How could they? You must understand them: they have not had a clear and common purpose for a very long time, for such a long time that they have no common cause to defend. In one week, by not controlling the symbolic importance of your actions, you have just given them passion, anger, rage. In the dark The resistance that will begin today, and to which my letter is added, is but a first manifestation of a movement that you yourself have set in motion: an incalculable number of texts, speeches, acts, assemblies, marches, will now be making themselves heard. They will not be exhausted. Some of these will, perhaps, following my letter, be weakened but within each word, there will be a spark of rage, relit, and it is precisely the addition of these tiny instances of fire that will shape the grain of sand that you will never be able to shake. This will not settle down, the pressure will not be diminished. Monsieur le premier ministre, we are neighbours. We work across the street from one another. There is nothing but the Cenotaph between our offices, and this is as it should be because politics and art have always mirrored one another, each on its own shore, each seeing itself in the other, separated by that river where life and death are weighed at every moment. We have many things in common, but an artist, contrary to a politician, has nothing to lose, because he or she does not make laws; and if it is prime ministers who change the world, it's the artist who will show this to the world. So do not attempt, through your policies, to blind us, Monsieur le premier ministre; do not ignore that reflection on the opposite shore, do not plunge us further into the dark. Do not diminish us. Wajdi Mouawad From pawan.durani at gmail.com Thu Jun 25 08:12:37 2009 From: pawan.durani at gmail.com (Pawan Durani) Date: Thu, 25 Jun 2009 08:12:37 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Massacres - contd Message-ID: <6b79f1a70906241942t6193ee7t7748b46d88f63f78@mail.gmail.com> Doda--Ethnic Cleansing continues Special Correspondent The terrorist campaign left behind a trail of killings of the local minority community in the hilly district of Doda on the intervening night of August 1 and 2. The separatists gunned down 12 people at Kunda Pogal, two at Darzen Ghat, Uglen, four at Kharwan and at least ten in Hansraj Top area of Banihal. Objective-ethnic cleansing. Sources revealed that a big group of around 30 militants belonging to Lashkar-e-Toiba and Harkat-ul-Ansar had been assigned the task of carrying out the massacre of minorities in the Pogal-Banihal belt. The terrorists divided themselves into three groups to attack simultaneously around 9.30 PM the Hindu community at Kunda, Kharwan and Gagwal Maligam villages of Pogal area. The maximum casualties occurred at Kunda Pogal, where 11 people, including two members each of a family were killed. Nine heavily armed militants, wearing army fatigues reached Kunda Pogal, 15 kms from the Banihal township and knocked at the doors of some houses introducing themselves as army jawans. Once inside, male folk, which included Sewa Singh, Raj Hari, Sita Ram, Pyar, Ajit, Suram, Ashok, Thakur and Sher Singh were asked to move to an under construction building of one Sarpat. Indiscriminate fire killed them on the spot. Many of the villagers had managed to leave their homes in time, immediately after hearing the sound of first gun shot and returned home half an hour after the gruesome incident. Survivors, which included mostly women were bitter against security forces for showing indifference once again. Sewa Singh, who was posted as judicial clerk at Ramban had come home to solemnize the marriage function of his daughter, scheduled for the next day. Another group of four militants went to Darzen Ghat, Uglen and abducted Ashok Singh, a 10th Class student and Chakkar Chand of Chenani, from their houses. They took them to the village primary school building, subjected them to inhuman torture and shot them dead at about 4.30 in the morning. At Kharwan Sewa Singh, Om Singh, Bishan Singh, Vishnu were killed din similar fashion. A dozen militants appeared in Hans Raj Top area, 25 kms from the National highway late in the night. They went to Gujjar Nagar adjoining Chapkani, forcibly entered some houses and gunned down atleast ten persons, including Bharat Singh, Ram Rattan, Chuni Singh, Thakur Dass, Prem Singh Katoch and his three unidentified relatives. Reports said the terrorists after committing the massacre escaped into the adjoining forests of Banihal. It was only in the morning that Brig Mohinder Singh of 11 Sector RR and Additional SP Ramban Rajesh Yadav rushed to Pogal area, many hours after death visited these unfortunate people in most inhuman and barbaric manner. Residents of these villages held strong demonstrations against laxity in the security by the administration. The government had not even set up VDCs in this area. This despite the fact that the people of the area had tipped the security forces about the movements of militants in Kunda area of Pogal on July 30. They had reported that large groups of militants were freely roaming in the area. Subsequently, the troops had launched an operation, in which one militant Mohd Sarfraz Ahmed of Falwal, Gujrat of Pakistan was killed, whereas three others had escaped. But security forces dropped the chase midway and returned to their base camp. Same night militants struck killing people at Kunda, Kharwan, Hansraj Top. Kunda is only 20 minutes walk from Hansraj top (Maligaon), whereas Kharwan is a nearby village. Security forces and the administration were totally complacent about the security of the minority community, arguing that no massacre had taken place in the area. Militants used to move in far off Sarwadhar range and come to villages only for ration and other essential commodidites. On August 6 another massacre was averted by the alertness of villagers. A group of militants knocked at doors of Mukund Ram at Digdole, Ramsu on Srinagar-Jammu National Highway. It was 1 AM. Villagers did not respond and raised alarm which drew Major Padma Kumar and Lt AP Singh of nearby camp of 49-ADR. Terrorists fled away, on seeing the security forces men. Following these incidents, three hundred families from Doda and Banihal villages have migrated. Families from Ganpatta, Khour Bridge and Handwa villages migrated to Doda town, while others have moved to Ramban. Terrorists have also been threatening VDC members to surrender rifles or face reprisals. During the past one month the scare has increased and at least ten VDC members belonging to Mangota, Batungal and Kanthi villages surrendered their rifles. But this has not deterred other villagers to demand setting up of VDCs and recruitment of local youth as SPOs. They have also asked the Union government for permanent deployment of the army in the area and establishment of military check posts at Lura, Rahun, Senabhati, Phagmulla, Top (Sulta), Dardehi (Khoura) in addition to Kunda, and Kharwan. The villagers also regretted that obsolete weapons are being given to VDC members. In addition, the bridges destroyed by the militants to hamper movement of troops also remain unrepaired. Except for one wooden bridge, three other bridges at Nachlana, Sherbibi and another one ahead of Sherbibi were set on fire by the terrorists. On the same night of August 1 and 2, suspected foreign militants attacked a patrol party of eight VDC members at 11 PM in Kayar Buchkar village in Dachchan area of Kishtwar. Mercenaries opened heavy firing on them through automatic weapons. Initially taken by surprise, VDC members fought courageously. The encounter lasted three hours. The obsolete weapons of VDC members couldn’t match those of mercenaries and soon exhausted their ammunition as well. All the eight VDC members were killed. Two ladies caught in the cross-firing were injured as bullets of militants fell inside their houses. Sera Devi succumbed to her injuries the next day and Sarswati Devi hit in the leg is recovering. While fleeing, the militants took alongwith them the .303 rifles of the VDC members. The VDC members killed in the encounter included Kunj Lal, Duni Chand, his younger brother Goverdhan, Jagdish, Dewan Chand, Satish Kumar, Shambu Nath. The security forces have arrested a local, Farooq Ahmed for his involvement in the Pogal massacre. Chronology of Massacres in Doda April 13-14, 1993 : 17 Killed at Sarthal, Kishtwar January 5, 1996 : 16 Killed at Barshalla, Kishtwar January 12, 1996 : 7 killed at Bhaderwah May 6, 1996 : 17 killed at Sumbar, Ramban June 7-8, 1996 : 8 killed at Kamladi, Doda June 19, 1998 : 25 of two marriage parties gunned down at Chapnari, Doda July 28, 1998 : 16 massacred in two villages of Doda August 8, 1998 : 35 labourers killed at Kalaban, HP  adjoining Doda July 19, 1999 : 15 killed at Layata, Doda Source: Kashmir Sentinel From naeem.mohaiemen at gmail.com Thu Jun 25 08:54:13 2009 From: naeem.mohaiemen at gmail.com (Naeem Mohaiemen) Date: Thu, 25 Jun 2009 09:24:13 +0600 Subject: [Reader-list] Irane Gonotontro Mukti Pak: Rally, Photos, Op-ed, FAQ Message-ID: Irane Gonotontro Mukti Pak http://unheardvoice.net/blog/2009/06/24/iran-mukti/ An Iranian in Dhaka http://unheardvoice.net/blog/2009/06/24/yazdi/ Iraq: FAQ in Bangladesh http://unheardvoice.net/blog/2009/06/24/iran-faq/ From chintangirishmodi at gmail.com Thu Jun 25 11:34:24 2009 From: chintangirishmodi at gmail.com (Chintan) Date: Thu, 25 Jun 2009 11:34:24 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] New book series explains climate change to children In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Dear friends Here's a link that I felt like sharing. Might interest some of you. Love Chintan http://www.expressbuzz.com/edition/story.aspx?Title=New+book+series+explains+climate+change+to+children&artid=9DxNA8n6jQs=&SectionID=41ptteGX1Qw=&MainSectionID=w44iAeuGCu8=&SectionName=42QPdTRt8sE=&SEO = Hat tip: Pratham From chintangirishmodi at gmail.com Thu Jun 25 12:21:33 2009 From: chintangirishmodi at gmail.com (Chintan) Date: Thu, 25 Jun 2009 12:21:33 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Centre of Learning for Visually Challenged Students at Wilson College, Mumbai In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: ---------- Forwarded message ---------- From: Khaliq Parkar khaliq.parkar at gmail.com ====== The Andrews Vision Centre at Wilson College, Chowpatty, Mumbai is a centre of learning for visually challenged students. The AVC has state of the art equipment and softwares to aid the learning capacity of the students. The centre ties up with organizations and other centres for the visually challenged to organize training programs in various fields taking care of their needs beyond the curriculum. Visually challenged students seeking admission in colleges, or wanting to use our facilities are invited to come visit the AVC. For more details, visit the Andrews Vision Centre, Monday to Saturday 10a.m.- 4p.m. or call 022 - 23637663 *ext.* 25 ====== From delhi.yunus at gmail.com Thu Jun 25 12:26:48 2009 From: delhi.yunus at gmail.com (Syed Yunus) Date: Thu, 25 Jun 2009 12:26:48 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] What's Your Gift? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: thanks chintan, Have you heard of 7days7gifts challenge? it kind of similar thing launched by my friend Rahul. do visit www.7days7gifts.ning.com for more detail, take the challenge and pass it on to others. regards, Yunus On 6/25/09, Chintan wrote: > > Dear friends, > This has been on my mind for a while. And I'm delighted to share it with > you. > Do make time to read this, and let me know what you think at > whatsyourgiftproject at gmail.com > Love > Chintan > > > *What's Your Gift?* > > The What's Your Gift? Project is based on a deep conviction that each one > of > us has gifts to offer, and that it is the sharing of these gifts in a > spirit > of service that can well become an organising principle for the way we > live. > This project is a humble effort to look for, document and share the stories > of those beautiful people who've recognised their gifts and are using them > generously for the benefit of others. > > The need for such stories is strongly felt at a time when people are > beginning to lose their trust in being compassionate, reaching out, and > helping others. They seek to be reassured that that money isn't such a > reliable measure of happiness; that it is possible to do something just for > the love of it; and that one can find a great sense of delight in knowing > that one has been useful. > > Here are some stories I have come across recently: > > * A musician who takes people on trips to Ladakh and Kashmir -- trips that > are less touristy, and more of an exploration into how our lifestyle > choices > impact the earth in hazardous ways, because of our callous preference for > convenience and comfort over the health of the universe that sustains us in > the first place > > * A social psychologist who devotes much of her time to connecting people > that might be able to benefit, support and learn from each other -- a > person > who freely shares her contacts, resources, time, and energy with many who > speak of her with grateful hearts > > * A filmmaker couple that hosts an open bookshelf, at home, as well as in > their office -- anyone is welcome to come by and look at the books and pick > whatever they like; the only rule being that the book shouldn't come back, > it has to be passed on to someone else who again will pass it on. > > * A computer programmer who has built up a collection of poetry from > spiritual traditions across the world -- poetry that he considers a > spontaneous, beautiful gift in his life, and is happy to share with readers > in faraway places through the daily mails he sends out > > * A college student who looks out for people with bare feet as he walks > around his city, and buys footwear for those who have none > > > I invite you to share stories of people you've come across, and urge you to > look around for more. The idea is to compile these stories in the form of > an > e-book that would be freely shared as a gift. > > Do let us know how you'd like to volunteer. Sharing stories, helping > designing posters, spreading the word -- there might be several different > ways in which you could share your gifts to help this project. > > So do get in touch: whatsyourgiftproject at gmail.com > > And yes, please circulate this mail among your friends, family, colleagues, > relatives, etc. :) > > > PS: Many thanks to my friend Vinod, whose work and words inspired this > project! > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > subscribe in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> -- Change is the only constant in life ! From chintangirishmodi at gmail.com Thu Jun 25 12:31:24 2009 From: chintangirishmodi at gmail.com (Chintan) Date: Thu, 25 Jun 2009 12:31:24 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] What's Your Gift? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Dear Yunus Thanks for the link. Checked it out, but the home page says that the website is currently undergoing maintenace. Could you share Rahul's contact details with me? Would love to write to him. Regards Chintan On Thu, Jun 25, 2009 at 12:26 PM, Syed Yunus wrote: > > thanks chintan, > > Have you heard of 7days7gifts challenge? it kind of similar thing launched > by my friend Rahul. do visit www.7days7gifts.ning.com for more detail, > take the challenge and pass it on to others. > > regards, > > Yunus > > > On 6/25/09, Chintan wrote: > >> Dear friends, >> This has been on my mind for a while. And I'm delighted to share it with >> you. >> Do make time to read this, and let me know what you think at >> whatsyourgiftproject at gmail.com >> Love >> Chintan >> >> >> *What's Your Gift?* >> >> The What's Your Gift? Project is based on a deep conviction that each one >> of >> us has gifts to offer, and that it is the sharing of these gifts in a >> spirit >> of service that can well become an organising principle for the way we >> live. >> This project is a humble effort to look for, document and share the >> stories >> of those beautiful people who've recognised their gifts and are using them >> generously for the benefit of others. >> >> The need for such stories is strongly felt at a time when people are >> beginning to lose their trust in being compassionate, reaching out, and >> helping others. They seek to be reassured that that money isn't such a >> reliable measure of happiness; that it is possible to do something just >> for >> the love of it; and that one can find a great sense of delight in knowing >> that one has been useful. >> >> Here are some stories I have come across recently: >> >> * A musician who takes people on trips to Ladakh and Kashmir -- trips that >> are less touristy, and more of an exploration into how our lifestyle >> choices >> impact the earth in hazardous ways, because of our callous preference for >> convenience and comfort over the health of the universe that sustains us >> in >> the first place >> >> * A social psychologist who devotes much of her time to connecting people >> that might be able to benefit, support and learn from each other -- a >> person >> who freely shares her contacts, resources, time, and energy with many who >> speak of her with grateful hearts >> >> * A filmmaker couple that hosts an open bookshelf, at home, as well as in >> their office -- anyone is welcome to come by and look at the books and >> pick >> whatever they like; the only rule being that the book shouldn't come back, >> it has to be passed on to someone else who again will pass it on. >> >> * A computer programmer who has built up a collection of poetry from >> spiritual traditions across the world -- poetry that he considers a >> spontaneous, beautiful gift in his life, and is happy to share with >> readers >> in faraway places through the daily mails he sends out >> >> * A college student who looks out for people with bare feet as he walks >> around his city, and buys footwear for those who have none >> >> >> I invite you to share stories of people you've come across, and urge you >> to >> look around for more. The idea is to compile these stories in the form of >> an >> e-book that would be freely shared as a gift. >> >> Do let us know how you'd like to volunteer. Sharing stories, helping >> designing posters, spreading the word -- there might be several different >> ways in which you could share your gifts to help this project. >> >> So do get in touch: whatsyourgiftproject at gmail.com >> >> And yes, please circulate this mail among your friends, family, >> colleagues, >> relatives, etc. :) >> >> >> PS: Many thanks to my friend Vinod, whose work and words inspired this >> project! >> _________________________________________ >> reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. >> Critiques & Collaborations >> To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with >> subscribe in the subject header. >> To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list >> List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> > > > > > -- > > Change is the only constant in life ! From chandni.parekh at gmail.com Thu Jun 25 12:41:47 2009 From: chandni.parekh at gmail.com (Chandni Parekh) Date: Thu, 25 Jun 2009 12:41:47 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Job Vacancy for Rape Counsellor at CEHAT, Bombay In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: ---------- Forwarded message ---------- From: Sana Contractor Date: 2009/6/25 Subject: Job Vacancy for Rape Counsellor at CEHAT Hi Chandni, We are looking for a rape counselor for one of the VAW projects at CEHAT. Will be grateful if you could pass this on to your extensive network :) Love, Sana. *Vacancy for the post of a Rape Counsellor on the project “Developing a Comprehensive health care response to women reporting sexual violence”* *Qualification* Post Graduate in Psychology or social work with relevant 2 to 3 years experience. *Knowledge and skills required* • A sound understanding on the issue of sexual violence against women in India • Capacity to conduct crisis intervention whenever called to respond to women / children reporting sexual assault in hospitals. • Capacity to carry out documentation pertaining to cases of sexual assault • Knowledge about therapies in responding to women and children reporting sexual assault • Fluency in Hindi, Marathi and English Candidates with experience on the issue of sexual violence would be preferred. Women candidates would be given preference. **Last date of receiving Application:* 22nd July 2009* Interested candidates can send their application to *pehel at vsnl.net* Salaries will be commensurate with qualifications and experience between Rs.16,000 and Rs.26,000 You can also post your resume to *Pehel* Field office of CEHAT Block No. 203, 2nd Floor Churchview Apartments St. Anthony’s Streets Vakola Santacruz (E) Mumbai 400 055 From rajen786uppinangady at gmail.com Thu Jun 25 13:18:41 2009 From: rajen786uppinangady at gmail.com (Rajendra Bhat Uppinangadi) Date: Thu, 25 Jun 2009 13:18:41 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] [Lalgarh Does not Exist] In-Reply-To: <341380d00906240433r680b22b0p905807488da8af9e@mail.gmail.com> References: <782279.15968.qm@web94713.mail.in2.yahoo.com> <7271ec560906240212i3e741362s2c2a70ddbfe08e9a@mail.gmail.com> <341380d00906240322q1cd53a83m477568847044e3a5@mail.gmail.com> <7271ec560906240409m7d155ac0w80b44bd1862e6c59@mail.gmail.com> <341380d00906240433r680b22b0p905807488da8af9e@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <7271ec560906250048p35d6b6edjdd62be579358403d@mail.gmail.com> Dear Anupam, it is not pertinent whether you cite millions or few hundreds, of the incidents of crime and violence, the issue is such criminals have to be taken care by rule of laws, no justification or excuse that it is "reaction" to action will suffice, is unjustifiable. With population of over one billion, the incidents of deviants have to be dealt firmly, according to laws, judicial system fine tunes to act quickly, as justice is not only to be delivered, but seen to be as delivered.Individuals or group of individuals becoming vigilantes or delivering justice vecause the system is slow is only compounding the issues in to bigger problems of law and order as the law keepers will be outnumbered by such mobs, and chaos will be the result in society fo all citizens.Justifying any type of violence is absolutely absurd, as it only encourages the individuals to form a critical mass of numbers of individuals to indulge in violence, extortion, rape and ilegal acts on other citizens. Regards, Rajen. On Wed, Jun 24, 2009 at 5:03 PM, anupam chakravartty wrote: > Dear Rajen, > > Sir i can cite millions of similar examples from the north east, who have > been killed selectively for the past 19 years from Assam, Manipur, > Nagaland. > You may not even find chargesheets for them. the only witness is a lone > wife, or a mother or a sister. you know people usually dont lie about > missing people and suffer the prying eyes of the society. At least we know > that Sadhvi Pragya is in a custody. What are your thought 1192 persons > including wife of one Satish Mishra burnt in the Godhra train carnage, who > is officially still missing in the police records. these are the seeds of > discontent that lawmakers are sowing -- the so called morally upright. i > have no sympathies for sadhvi or any one who is abetting or encouraging > these activities even in the case of naxals but i would be interested as to > find the root of all these discontentment. however, if i am asked to rank > naxals and hindu right or muslim fundamentalism or zionism or violent > evangelism, i would say naxals or maoists are more real and have a better > ideology than fundamentalists. at least in their aims, they are supposed > to be fighting for the cause of the downtrodden. my only cause of concern > is > the use of violent means to gather support and selective killing of the > feudal lord by the naxals. however, fundamentalism doesnt deserve a space > in > the democracy. never...never. it is evil to think that i am a hindu > that's why i should rule the land and be the law...its purely evil. > > thanks anupam > > On 6/24/09, Rajendra Bhat Uppinangadi > wrote: > > > > dear Anupam, > > > > a citizen of the nation only becomes the politician , police officer > or > > law keeper and elite security personnel, Any one who breaks law has to be > > under scanner of same rule of laws, democracy in practice is where > > irrespective of the status, faith or contents of the purse of the > > individual, rule of laws prevails. But we see different yardsticks being > > used by our citizens on different occassions, just one example, a 28 year > > old lady is in custody of SIT in mumbai for months now, with > investigation > > not showing any progress or proof, but we talk of our concerns,worry > about > > some, selectively, not about this lady, because she is labeled as > sadhvi.? > > What about human rights of this lady and eleven others who for the sake > of > > vote gains, division of votes were arrested by a ruthless fuedal leader > > using honest cop, Hemanth karkare.? > > > > On Wed, Jun 24, 2009 at 3:52 PM, anupam chakravartty >wrote: > > > >> dear rajen, > >> > >> you should have included the politicians, the police officials, CRPF > >> members > >> who take violent measures to quell violence. its ironical but true as > well > >> as in several places in andhra pradesh, manipur, kashmir. politicians > are > >> biggest sympathiser of such actions..they are equally responsible. > instead > >> of question why such violent forms of dissent are happening across the > >> nation, you are just discussing what forms of dissent should be > employed. > >> why there should be so much of strife? unless you dont understand and > >> express your thoughts about that talking merely about violence becomes > >> irrelevant. > >> > >> second, inclusion of binayak sen and teesta setalvad along with praveen > >> togadia makes your argument really weak here. because you seem to have > one > >> yardstick to measure everyone -- either you are with us ( the so-called > >> law > >> abiding citizens) or you are an enemy of the state. however problems in > >> this nation exist in particular as it is a diverse country. even several > >> state security agencies do not employ similar measures in tackling with > >> the issues in chattisgarh to quell naxalite movement, while keeping the > >> communal rioting at bay. so how are presenting binayak sen and praveen > >> togadia in the same pedestal. the word "sympathiser" has several > >> connotations. you can sympathise with the cause that a particular > movement > >> is raising but may not sympathise the means by which solutions to the > >> problem are being taken by these banned organisations. > >> > >> -thanks anupam > >> > >> On 6/24/09, Rajendra Bhat Uppinangadi > >> wrote: > >> > >> > Dear All, > >> > > >> > any citizen, in his / her excercise of rights of freedom to > >> expression > >> > can express his/her views in democratic India, but taking laws into > >> their > >> > own hands as a way of demonstration of protest is not acceptable in > any > >> > society, as this violence not only hurts the innocents, but also > >> destroys > >> > the civil liberties of citizens and violence only begets more of it. > Be > >> it > >> > naxalites, maoists, fanatics of any faith, when they resort to violent > >> > means > >> > of addressing the issues that they percieve as wrong, it destroys the > >> > societal harmony, liberties of the citizens, worse, it ushers in > >> atrocities > >> > by the state machinery on every citizen under assumption that he/she > is > >> > "sympathiser" > >> > of such violent actions of these groups. Binayak Sen and all other > well > >> > meaning individuals of naxalites also fall in this category,just as a > >> > praveen togadia or afjal guru and geelanis and theestas of the nation. > >> Let > >> > the laws of the land take firm and definite action against law > breakers, > >> > whether in uniform or citizens of the nation, only rule of laws which > if > >> > impartial, non partisan, without fear or favour acts on the deviants > in > >> the > >> > society, the democracy will floursh, dissent without violent action to > >> > express dissent is acceptable, but dissent in the form of violence is > >> not > >> > acceptable in civil society. > >> > > >> > Regards, > >> > > >> > Rajen. > >> > On Tue, Jun 23, 2009 at 11:14 PM, subhrodip sengupta < > >> > sub_sengupta at yahoo.co.in> wrote: > >> > > >> > > Maoist spokesman detained in Kolkata for questioning. Finally to > >> threaten > >> > > these people you yeild the rod in central Kolkata. Nothing new, they > >> had > >> > > always been. Now specially when govt gets itchy over NAxalite's > >> strategy, > >> > > what aft But detaining spokespersons or message bearers is against > >> > > politics.. Naah these guys wanna rub out the traits of Maoism from > all > >> > books > >> > > in India, something in which the Khilji's failed. Bad luck, Mr. > >> > Chakravorty, > >> > > you are in the police net. As for Central Kol., it has always > >> woitnessed > >> > > police attrocities for the last decade. Off course there might be > some > >> > bomb, > >> > > etc. but isnt this guy a herald. A few women were similarly held in > >> Delhi > >> > > recently on same allegations without substantial proof as if thus > the > >> > > ideology can be erased and the system and the ranks rationalised. > This > >> > came > >> > > hopefully as a reaction to a pro-people's assembly where some noted > >> > > activist threated to arrange a Dharna before writers and BUddhadev's > >> > office, > >> > > with > >> > > off course many Maoists, if CPI(ML) was banned. The ideology is > >> clearly > >> > > more dangerous and revolutionary than the army! Messing up things > will > >> > > definitely not help, Mr. Bhattacharya! LAlgarh lives on, as a > >> revolution. > >> > > Does First War of Independance( Ok revolt of 1857 exist?) > >> > > > >> > > > >> > > Love Cricket? Check out live scores, photos, video highlights > and > >> > > more. Click here http://cricket.yahoo.com > >> > > _________________________________________ > >> > > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > >> > > Critiques & Collaborations > >> > > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > >> > > subscribe in the subject header. > >> > > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > >> > > List archive: > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > -- > >> > Rajen. > >> > _________________________________________ > >> > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > >> > Critiques & Collaborations > >> > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > >> > subscribe in the subject header. > >> > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > >> > >> > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> > >> _________________________________________ > >> reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > >> Critiques & Collaborations > >> To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > >> subscribe in the subject header. > >> To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > >> > >> List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> > > > > > > > > > > -- > > Rajen. > > > > > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > subscribe in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> > -- Rajen. From chandni.parekh at gmail.com Thu Jun 25 13:37:18 2009 From: chandni.parekh at gmail.com (Chandni Parekh) Date: Thu, 25 Jun 2009 13:37:18 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Job Vacancies in Bombay: Mental Health Helpline In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Details here: http://psychologynews.posterous.com/job-vacancies-in-bombay-mental-health-helplin - Chandni From sunil at cis-india.org Wed Jun 17 18:59:17 2009 From: sunil at cis-india.org (Sunil Abraham) Date: Wed, 17 Jun 2009 18:59:17 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Talk: Social Media for Mobilisation--Call for questions Message-ID: <4A38EFAD.2060909.106@cis-india.org> Dear Reader List, The Centre for Internet and Society, Bangalore, announces a CHANGE IN DATE AND TIMING for Peter Griffin and Dina Mehta's talk on using Social Media for Mobilisation. The talk will be held at the CIS office on Friday, 19 June, at 6.30 pm. ****If attending, please email bawazainab79 at gmail.com with any specific questions on social media and activism that you may want to discuss at the event.**** Entry is free and registration is not required. For more details on the event and speakers, please see the link or the abstract below. * Using Social Media for Mobilisation -- Friday, 19 June, 2009; 6.30-8.00 pm http://www.cis-india.org/events/using-social-media-for-mobilisation Panel discussion with Dina Mehta and Peter Griffin For some time now, blogs, facebook and other forms of social media have been used extensively for rallying people around an issue or a cause. However, what makes some of these campaigns more successful than others? Does the workability of social media for mobilisation depend on the manner in which information is designed and/or disseminated? This panel brings together two well-known names from the world of social media, Dina Mehta and Peter Griffin, to explore "meme engineering" and understand what makes some forms of use of social media more effective than others. * Speakers Dina Mehta is a founder and Managing Director of Mosoci India. She has spent twenty years specializing in qualitative research and ethnography. She is at the forefront of technology trend research in India and works with a global portfolio of companies; including learning journeys, and immersions for innovation teams. She brings her unique perspective to understanding the emerging social aspects of new technology and the impact of new media on youth and mobility. Her work has led her to study the impact of technology in rural markets, follow trend-setting youth in urban settings, dig deep into motivations and possible triggers across a wide range of demographic and psychographic groups, explore and identify underlying value propositions and key drivers/barriers in several categories. Peter Griffin is a well-known blogger and has been involved with a number of collaborative projects, including the South-East Asia Earthquake and Tsunami blog (also known as TsunamiHelp), MumbaiHelp, Think Bombay, and the WorldWideHelp group and its associated projects. All of these project have been concerned with bringing together the web and free tools on one hand, and concerned web natives and public goodwill on the other, to assist in disaster relief. Peter is also the co-founder, joint editor and co-moderator of the writing community, Caferati. He is currently the Special Features Editor with Forbes Magazine, India. * Venue Centre for Internet and Society, No. D2, 3rd Floor, Sheriff Chambers, 14, Cunningham Road, Bangalore - 560052 (Telephone: 080 4092 6283) ----- From shuddha at sarai.net Sat Jun 20 02:22:20 2009 From: shuddha at sarai.net (Shuddhabrata Sengupta) Date: Sat, 20 Jun 2009 02:22:20 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Shahidul Alam detained by Indian Border Security Force In-Reply-To: <990757.89093.qm@web53602.mail.re2.yahoo.com> References: <990757.89093.qm@web53602.mail.re2.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <18E6FD03-3DFF-4566-84CA-53CDFF829726@sarai.net> Dear Rahul, I have always felt quite at home in the world, regardless of whether I was on the terrace of my Old Rajendra Nagar house in New Delhi, which once housed refugees from West Pakistan before it housed my migrant parents and me (where I live), or I was on hilltop in Damascus, or in a ruined factory in Warsaw, or on the border between East and West Jerusalem. I do not sense a feeling of being 'not at home' when I am not in my own country, and there are many places in my own country, where I do not feel quite as home as I would have liked to, for instance in the wide, paranoiac, expansive and empty boulevards of Lutyens Delhi. In Delhi, take me to Akbar Road, and I will feel a foreigner (even a bit of an illegal migrant), leave me in Karol Bagh, Chitli Qabar, Mehrauli, Khan Market or Jungpura, and I will do just fine. Home, after all, is where the heart is. And my heart is not in the Lutyens Bungalow Zone of New Delhi. So I don't quite understand the analogy of locked homes and fenced countries. After all, we lock our homes, primarily against the possible attacks of our own fellow citizens. So, since we lock our homes against our own fellow citizens, logically, then, following your line of thinking, should we not turn the whole country into one vast prison, where everyone watches out for the danger that is everybody else.We don't even have to look as far as the next Bangladeshi. Or, as my friends and I had reason to say in another context, 'Is the outer wall of the detention centre, the inner wall of the city?" regards, Shuddha On 19-Jun-09, at 9:39 PM, Rahul Asthana wrote: > > Dear Anupam, > Your question is a straw man.I am not drawing any analogy between > nation and home.My question to Shuddha is based upon his statement > about artificial borders etc. > > Thanks > Rahul > > --- On Fri, 6/19/09, anupam chakravartty wrote: > >> From: anupam chakravartty >> Subject: Re: [Reader-list] Shahidul Alam detained by Indian Border >> Security Force >> To: "sarai list" >> Date: Friday, June 19, 2009, 9:16 PM >> Dear Rahul, >> >> >> >> I am sorry that I am addressing the question that you have >> raised >> specifically for Shuddha to reply. However, I would like to >> add something. I >> guess for many of the readers in this list, perceiving your >> nation, as your >> home is one thing, being an understanding as well as an >> empathetic neighbour >> is another. May be these two things are connected but I >> feel that the moment >> one goes gung-ho about their home, their land and their >> resources, it >> reminds me of this pot-bellied uncle next door, who would >> scream the moment >> my football would enter his compound. I feel I don’t want >> my nation to >> behave like that pot-bellied neighbour of mine. I say this >> because our >> members have been drawing this analogy of home and the >> question that you >> have posed here: “Do you think that people should be >> allowed unrestricted >> entry to other peoples homes at all times?” >> >> >> >> If I use this analogy, then this is what it looks like: >> >> >> >> 1. If India is so touchy about >> unrestricted entry of her neighbours, in >> this context, Bangladesh, she should have >> been like how neighbours are, >> boundaries drawn but certain limited >> contact should have been made possible >> like what she had with her other >> neighbour. Why are our fences so porous >> with Bangladesh? >> 2. It has been sixty years since we have >> living in this neighbourhood, >> count the number of times like feudal >> landlords we have waged wars with each >> other? If we care so much about our >> homes, why do we have people acting >> swinishly about which religion they >> belong to and other such things? >> >> >> Thanks anupam >> >> On 6/19/09, Rahul Asthana >> wrote: >>> >>> >>> Dear Sonia, >>> Do you agree with this - >>> "I think the detention of any human being on the >> grounds that he is >>> crossing an artificial, ephemeral, man-made border is >> an affront to >>> our common humanity." >>> Dear Shuddha, >>> Do you think that homes should be locked? Do you think >> that people should >>> be allowed unrestricted entry to other peoples homes >> at all times? >>> You have a very interesting idea.Lets explore the >> polemics around it. >>> >>> Thanks >>> Rahul >>> >>> --- On Fri, 6/19/09, S. Jabbar >> wrote: >>> >>>> From: S. Jabbar >>>> Subject: Re: [Reader-list] Shahidul Alam detained >> by Indian Border >>> Security Force >>>> To: "A.K. Malik" , >> "Shuddhabrata Sengupta" < >>> shuddha at sarai.net> >>>> Cc: "Sarai" >>>> Date: Friday, June 19, 2009, 8:57 AM >>>> Exactly what the English think about >>>> the Poles, the Germans about the Turks, >>>> the Americans about the Mexicans, and the >> Australians, >>>> Americans, French, >>>> Germans, Italians, Spaniards, Canadians, Poles, >> Mexicans, >>>> and Turks think >>>> about Indians. >>>> >>>> >>>>> From: "A.K. Malik" >>>>> Date: Thu, 18 Jun 2009 18:13:30 -0700 (PDT) >>>>> To: Shuddhabrata Sengupta >>>>> Cc: Sarai List >>>>> Subject: Re: [Reader-list] Shahidul Alam >> detained by >>>> Indian Border Security >>>>> Force >>>>> >>>>> >>>> Hi, >>>> Views are very noble, >> interesting and >>>> appreciable from humane point >>>>> of view. But when you lose your >> identity,home, job >>>> because someone crosses >>>>> over illegally to your country, things >> become >>>> different. Global brotherhood is >>>>> easy to talk about, but difficult to >> implement >>>> especially in the current >>>>> environs.Imagine most Bangladeshis, Africans >> coming >>>> over freely to our country >>>>> to make our life more pleasant by doing >> menial jobs >>>> and terrorist walking over >>>>> freely from Pakistan...!!!!!!! >>>> Regards, >>>> >>>> (A.K.MALIK) >>>> >>>> >>>> --- On Fri, 6/19/09, >>>>> Shuddhabrata Sengupta >>>> wrote: >>>> >>>>> From: Shuddhabrata >>>>> Sengupta >>>>> Subject: Re: [Reader-list] Shahidul Alam >>>>> detained by Indian Border Security Force >>>>> To: "sarai list" >>>>> >>>>> Date: Friday, June 19, 2009, 3:11 AM >>>>> Dear All, >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> I think the detention of any human being on >> the >>>> grounds >>>>> that he is >>>>> >>>>> crossing an artificial, ephemeral, man-made >> border is >>>> an >>>>> affront to >>>>> our >>>>> common humanity. Borders come and go, and >> people will >>>>> move across >>>>> them, >>>>> and have always moved across them, >> regardless of the >>>>> controls >>>>> that seek >>>>> to restrict movement. Otherwise we would >> all >>>>> be >>>>> uncivilised, uncouth, >>>>> provincial barbarians. >>>>> >>>>> Shahidul Alam happens to be >> a very respected >>>>> >>>>> photographer, but his >>>>> detention by an Indian border patrol would >> have been >>>>> just >>>>> as horrible >>>>> if he were an honest, hard working peasant, >>>>> agricultural >>>>> worker, >>>>> factory worker, cook, student, plumber or >>>>> sex-worker from >>>>> Bangladesh >>>>> who happened to have got caught while being >>>>> on the 'wrong' >>>>> side of >>>>> the insane labyrinth that is called the >>>>> India-Bangladesh >>>>> border . >>>>> >>>>> The city of Delhi, where I live, is >> sustained >>>>> by the hard >>>>> labour of >>>>> many Bangladeshis who work as domestic help, >> as >>>>> informal >>>>> factory >>>>> workers, as people in the formal as well as >> informal >>>>> >>>>> hospitality >>>>> industry, as white collar workers. Not all >> of them are >>>> in >>>>> >>>>> Delhi >>>>> 'Legally' but the city would be poorer >> without them, >>>> as >>>>> would >>>>> many >>>>> cities all over the world. Imagine Rome, >> London, New >>>> York, >>>>> >>>>> Melbourne, >>>>> Warsaw or New Delhi without the cheerful, >> ironic, >>>> gentle >>>>> >>>>> Bangladeshi >>>>> who cleans homes, sells flowers, works as a >> doctor, >>>> drives >>>>> a >>>>> taxi, >>>>> makes love, cooks meals, writes poems, >> builds houses, >>>> turns >>>>> >>>>> lathes >>>>> and sings songs. The free movement of >> people is a >>>>> precondition >>>>> of a >>>>> free world, and the free movement of >> Bangladeshi >>>> people, >>>>> many of >>>>> >>>>> whom, who with their immense energy, good >> humour and >>>> gentle >>>>> irony >>>>> >>>>> sustain a more humane fabric of everyday >> life is what >>>> makes >>>>> life >>>>> worth >>>>> living in many parts of the world. They show >> you the >>>>> way in >>>>> strange >>>>> cities. They sing you a snatch of song. >> Sometimes >>>>> they give >>>>> you an >>>>> unasked for discount on the bill at the end >> of a big >>>>> meal when >>>>> you are >>>>> hungry. >>>>> >>>>> All those who oppose the free movement of >> people, >>>> whether >>>>> the >>>>> people >>>>> are identified, or choose to identify >> themselves as >>>>> >>>>> Bangladeshis, >>>>> Poles, Croats, Palestinians, Israelis, >> Pakistanis, >>>>> Indians, >>>>> Iraqis, >>>>> Iranians, Afghans, Somalis or Congolese are >> inhuman, >>>>> >>>>> inhospitable and >>>>> enemies of our shared humanity. >>>>> >>>>> On another note, I >>>>> have said this before, but I will >>>>> say it again. I >>>>> find the detention of >>>>> Pragya Bharti under preventive >>>>> detention laws >>>>> as reprehensible as that >>>>> of Binayak Sen or those (many >>>>> young people) >>>>> who are accused of being >>>>> SIMI or Indian Mujahideen >>>>> frontmen, or of >>>>> being Maoists, or opposed to >>>>> circumstances of that prevail >>>>> Kashmir or >>>>> in the North Eastern states of >>>>> India. >>>>> >>>>> Preventive detention, under any >> circumstances, is an >>>> insult >>>>> to >>>>> >>>>> liberty and should be opposed, no matter who >> is being >>>>> detained, >>>>> >>>>> whether it is Varun Gandhi, Binayak Sen, >> Pragya Bharti >>>> or >>>>> anyone else. >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> regards >>>>> >>>>> Shuddha >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> On 17-Jun-09, at 12:35 PM, Rajendra Bhat >>>>> Uppinangadi >>>>> wrote: >>>>> >>>>>> Dear All, one issue that is concerning >> me is, >>>> are >>>>> men >>>>> and women in >>>>>> media >>>>>> above laws.? If they are doing any >> project, >>>>> they can >>>>> violate laws >>>>>> of the >>>>>> land.? Is media responsible to >>>>> citizens of the nation >>>>> in which they >>>>>> are >>>>>> operating.? Or they are >>>>> responsible only to media >>>>> barons and the share >>>>>> holders of the media >>>>> corporate to share the "profits" >>>>> of such >>>>>> projects.? As >>>>>> the humans >>>>> work in different walks of life, do they >>>>> become above >>>>>> laws if >>>>>> they >>>>> are say, politicians, judicial appointees >> and >>>>> executives, or >>>>>> are >>>>> they >>>>>> appointed to serve the citizens in best >> possible >>>>> interests of the >>>>> >>>>>> citizens.? >>>>>> >>>>>> Now, as to current >> matter ubder >>>>> discussion, it is >>>>> to be noted >>>>>> that if the >>>>>> border force do their duties sincerely, >> no >>>>> under age >>>>> married girls >>>>>> can come >>>>>> in to India and work as dance bar >>>>> girls, sex workers >>>>> in as far as >>>>>> south >>>>>> India, particularly in >>>>> Chennai, Bangalore, and >>>>> Hyderabad. It is >>>>>> true that >>>>>> they have >>>>> practically no opportunities to earn a >>>>> living in their >>>>>> bangaldesh, >>>>>> >>>>> but the sad issue is many of these married >> girls are >>>>> in southern >>>>>> >>>>> India,, >>>>>> recently Bangalore police with Chennai >> counter >>>> parts >>>>> ripped >>>>> open >>>>>> the network >>>>>> of this illegal trade of human traffick >> and sex >>>>> trade. >>>>> Local news >>>>>> network >>>>>> channel 9 and Udaya TV and also >> Suvarna >>>>> tv covered the >>>>> issue >>>>>> comprehensively. Even with recession >> and lesser >>>>> >>>>> salaries, the >>>>>> stressed minds >>>>>> are seeking extra carnal pleasures ? >>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> As to this man of media, why he has not >> taken >>>>> necessary >>>>>> >>>>> authorisation for >>>>>> the project work.? Is he under cover >> operative >>>> for any >>>>> >>>>> group.? If Dr. >>>>>> Binayak Sen can be held captive in >> detention for >>>> the >>>>> good >>>>> work he >>>>>> has had on >>>>>> record, is not above laws, which >> ofcourse is >>>>> obnxious, >>>>> are men in >>>>>> media >>>>>> above laws.? >>>>>> >>>>>> Amusingly, the >>>>> fate of Prajna Thakur >>>>> and 12 others who are under >>>>>> detention >>>>>> for >>>>> months now without any shred of proof has >> no >>>>> defenders of human >>>>>> >>>>> rights >>>>>> talking or them.! None is concerned >> about these >>>>> detentions of >>>>> Prajna >>>>>> Thakur.? Perceptions of a few seem to >> be taking >>>> over >>>>> the rights >>>>> and >>>>>> wrongs >>>>>> in society, when it comes to human >> rights of the >>>>> >>>>> humans.? >>>>>> >>>>>> Regards, >>>>>> >>>>>> Rajen. >>>>>> >>>>>> On Wed, Jun 17, 2009 at >>>>> 11:16 AM, anupam >>>>> chakravartty >>>>>> wrote: >>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>> Photographer Shahidul Alam spends 6hrs in >> BSF >>>>> custody: >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>> http://bdnews24.com/details.php?id=87461&cid=2 >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>> http://www.indianexpress.com/news/Bangladeshi-photographer-held-- >>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>> crossing--Indo-Bangla-border/477648 >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Two versions of the same story. >>>>> However, if as per >>>>> the BSF >>>>>>> officials are >>>>>>> claiming that Alam >>>>> crossed over in the Dhubri >>>>> sector, which is >>>>>>> also my home >>>>>>> >>>>> district, the Brahmaputra river is itself >> the >>>>> border. during the >>>>>>> >>>>> floods >>>>>>> immigrant bangladeshis in >> connivance of BSF >>>> and >>>>> BDR enter India >>>>> on >>>>>>> boats >>>>>>> carrying pineapples from across the >> border. >>>> the no >>>>> >>>>> man's land >>>>>>> mentioned in >>>>>>> both of the reports is actually >> river >>>>> >>>>> brahmaputra. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> thanks anupam >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> On 6/17/09, Santhosh Kumar >>>>> >>>>> wrote: >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> it is hard to believe that >>>>> you will >>>>> believe.... >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> On Wed, Jun 17, 2009 at 9:53 >> AM, Pawan >>>>> >>>>> Durani >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> wrote: >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> Hard to >>>>> believe ..... >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> On Tue, Jun 16, 2009 at >> 7:55 PM, >>>> Shun-Ling >>>>> Chen >>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> wrote: >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>> http://unheardvoice.net/blog/2009/06/16/shahidul-alam-detained-by- >>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>> indian >>>>>>>>>> >> -border-security-force/ >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> Dr Shahidul Alam, >>>>> well-known >>>>> photographer, and founder Drik, was >>>>>>>>>> detained by Indian >>>>> Border Security >>>>> Forces while working on the >>>>>>>>>> Bangladesh side of the >>>>> border on his >>>>> Brahmaputra project. He >>>>>>>>>> called >>>>>>> me >>>>>>>>>> at >>>>> 18:21 pm to tell me that the guards >>>>> had asked him to come over, >>>>>>> and >>>>> >>>>>>>>>> then detained him at >> Sahapara 21 >>>> IPP, >>>>> across the border from >>>>>>>>>> >>>>> Rowmari. >>>>>>>>>> His two colleagues are >> on the >>>>> Bangladeshi side of the >>>>> border, and >>>>>>> can't >>>>>>>>>> get to him. >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> Please contact Home >>>>> and Foreign >>>>> Ministry officials requesting that >>>>>>> they >>>>>>>>>> do all >>>>> possible to get him released >>>>> immediately. It is worth >>>>>>> mentioning >>>>> >>>>>>>>>> that the Indian BSF >> have detained >>>> and >>>>> killed many innocent >>>>>>> >>>>> Bangladeshis >>>>>>>>>> in recent years, in the >> border >>>> areas. >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>> http://www.mediahelpingmedia.org/content/view/387/1/ >>>>>>>>>> News - South >>>>> Asia >>>>>>>>>> By David Brewer >>>>>>>>>> Tuesday, 16 June 2009 >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>> Reports from Bangladesh say that >>>>> Shahidul Alam, the photo >>>>>>>>>> >>>>> journalist, >>>>>>>>>> blogger and founder of >> the Drik >>>>> picture network has >>>>> been >>>>>>>>>> detained by >>>>>>>>>> Indian border security >> forces >>>> while >>>>> >>>>> working on the Bangladesh >>>>>>>>>> side of >>>>>>>>>> the border. >>>>>>>>>> >>>>> >>>>>>>>>> In a message to this >> site from >>>> Dhaka, >>>>> Alam's partner says he was >>>>>>>> >>>>> working >>>>>>>>>> on a multimedia project >> about >>>> the >>>>> Brahmaputra with two >>>>> colleagues >>>>>>> when >>>>>>>>>> border guards took him >> awa >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> There >>>>> are now fears for Alam's safety >>>>> and supporters are >>>>>>>>>> calling on >>>>>>> >>>>> the >>>>>>>>>> international community >> to push >>>> for >>>>> his release. >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>> The last message from Shahidul Alam >>>>> came through at !8:21 on >>>>>>>>>> >>>>> Tuesday >>>>>>> 16 >>>>>>>>>> June when he called >> home to say >>>> that >>>>> border security >>>>> guards had >>>>>>>>>> asked >>>>>>>>>> him to come over to the >> Indian >>>> side of >>>>> >>>>> the border where they >>>>>>>>>> detained >>>>>>>>>> him at Sahapara 21 >> IPP, >>>>> across the >>>>> border from Rowmari. >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> His two colleagues are >> on >>>>> the >>>>> Bangladeshi side of the border, and >>>>>>> can't >>>>>>>>>> get to him. >>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> At the time Alam was >> working on >>>> the >>>>> Bangladesh end of the >>>>> river >>>>>>>>>> Brahmaputra project. He >> had >>>> travelled >>>>> to Kurigram with two >>>>> Drik >>>>>>>>>> colleagues to take >> photos, video >>>> and >>>>> stills. >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>> Contact has been made with a number of >>>>> local and international >>>>>>>>>> >>>>> media >>>>>>>>>> organisations and >> government >>>>> officials, including the Indian >>>>> High >>>>>>>>>> Commission. >>>>>>>>>> >>>>> _________________________________________ >>>>> >>>>>>>>>> reader-list: an open >> discussion >>>> list >>>>> on media and the city. >>>>>>>>>> >>>>> Critiques & Collaborations >>>>>>>>>> To subscribe: send an >> email to >>>>> reader-list-request at sarai.net >>>>> with >>>>>>>>>> subscribe in the >> subject >>>>> header. >>>>>>>>>> To unsubscribe: >>>>> https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader- >>>>>>>>>> list >>>>>>>>>> List >>>>> archive: >>>>>>>>> >>>>> _________________________________________ >>>>>>>>> reader-list: an open >>>>> discussion list on >>>>> media and the city. >>>>>>>>> Critiques & >> Collaborations >>>>> >>>>>>>>> To subscribe: send an email >> to reader-list-request at sarai.net >>>>> with >>>>> >>>>>>>>> subscribe in the subject >> header. >>>>>>>>> To unsubscribe: >>>>> https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list >>>>>>>>> List archive: >>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>> _________________________________________ >>>>>>>> reader-list: an open >>>>> discussion list on media >>>>> and the city. >>>>>>>> Critiques & Collaborations >>>>> >>>>>>>> To subscribe: send an email to >> reader-list-request at sarai.net >>>>> with >>>>>>>> >>>>> subscribe in the subject header. >>>>>>>> To unsubscribe: >>>>> https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list >>>>>>>> List archive: >>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>> _________________________________________ >>>>>>> reader-list: an open discussion >>>>> list on media and >>>>> the city. >>>>>>> Critiques & Collaborations >>>>>>> To >>>>> subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net >>>>> with >>>>>>> >>>>> subscribe in the subject header. >>>>>>> To unsubscribe: >>>>> https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list >>>>>>> List archive: >>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> -- >>>>> >>>>>> Rajen. >>>>>> >> _________________________________________ >>>>>> reader-list: an >>>>> open discussion list on media and the >>>>> city. >>>>>> Critiques & Collaborations >>>>> >>>>>> To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net >>>>> with >>>>>> >>>>> subscribe in the subject header. >>>>>> To unsubscribe: >>>>> https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list >>>>>> List archive: >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> _________________________________________ >>>>> reader-list: an open discussion >>>>> list on media and the >>>>> city. >>>>> Critiques & Collaborations >>>>> To subscribe: >>>>> send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net >>>>> with subscribe in the subject >>>>> header. >>>>> To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader- >>>>> list >>>>> >>>>> List archive: >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>>> >>>> _________________________________________ >>>> reader-list: an open discussion >>>>> list on media and the city. >>>> Critiques & Collaborations >>>> To subscribe: send an >>>>> email to reader-list-request at sarai.net >>>> with subscribe in the subject >>>>> header. >>>> To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list >>>>> >>>> List archive: >>>> >>>> >>>> _________________________________________ >>>> reader-list: an open discussion list on media and >> the >>>> city. >>>> Critiques & Collaborations >>>> To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net >>>> with subscribe in the subject header. >>>> To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list >>>> List archive: >>> >>> >>> >>> _________________________________________ >>> reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the >> city. >>> Critiques & Collaborations >>> To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net >> with >>> subscribe in the subject header. >>> To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list >>> List archive: >> _________________________________________ >> reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the >> city. >> Critiques & Collaborations >> To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net >> with subscribe in the subject header. >> To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list >> List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> > > > > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > subscribe in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> Shuddhabrata Sengupta The Sarai Programme at CSDS Raqs Media Collective shuddha at sarai.net www.sarai.net www.raqsmediacollective.net From chintangirishmodi at gmail.com Sun Jun 21 03:34:45 2009 From: chintangirishmodi at gmail.com (Chintan) Date: Sun, 21 Jun 2009 03:34:45 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Invitation to participate: What's Your Gift? Project Message-ID: Dear friends, This has been on my mind for a while. And I'm delighted to share it with you. Do make time to read this, and let me know what you think at whatsyourgiftproject at gmail.com Love Chintan *What's Your Gift? * The What's Your Gift? Project is based on a deep conviction that each one of us has gifts to offer, and that it is the sharing of these gifts in a spirit of service that can well become an organising principle for the way we live. This project is a humble effort to look for, document and share the stories of those beautiful people who've recognised their gifts and are using them generously for the benefit of others. The need for such stories is strongly felt at a time when people are beginning to lose their trust in being compassionate, reaching out, and helping others. They seek to be reassured that that money isn't such a reliable measure of happiness; that it is possible to do something just for the love of it; and that one can find a great sense of delight in knowing that one has been useful. Here are some stories I have come across recently: * A musician who takes people on trips to Ladakh and Kashmir -- trips that are less touristy, and more of an exploration into how our lifestyle choices impact the earth in hazardous ways, because of our callous preference for convenience and comfort over the health of the universe that sustains us in the first place * A social psychologist who devotes much of her time to connecting people that might be able to benefit, support and learn from each other -- a person who freely shares her contacts, resources, time, and energy with many who speak of her with grateful hearts * A filmmaker couple that hosts an open bookshelf, at home, as well as in their office -- anyone is welcome to come by and look at the books and pick whatever they like; the only rule being that the book shouldn't come back, it has to be passed on to someone else who again will pass it on. * A computer programmer who has built up a collection of poetry from spiritual traditions across the world -- poetry that he considers a spontaneous, beautiful gift in his life, and is happy to share with readers in faraway places through the daily mails he sends out * A college student who looks out for people with bare feet as he walks around his city, and buys footwear for those who have none I invite you to share stories of people you've come across, and urge you to look around for more. The idea is to compile these stories in the form of an e-book that would be freely shared as a gift. If you have a story, but do not have the time to write it, one can find volunteers to take care of that. If you are good at writing, but do not have a story in mind, you can volunteer to help with interviewing, writing, editing and proofreading. If you are into graphic design, you can help with layouts and illustrations. If you are a photographer, you can help with pictures. There might be several other ways in which you can share your gifts to help this project. So do get in touch: whatsyourgiftproject at gmail.com And yes, please circulate this mail among your friends. PS: Many thanks to my friend Vinod, whose work and words inspired this project! From chandrika.media at gmail.com Mon Jun 22 13:46:41 2009 From: chandrika.media at gmail.com (chandrika media) Date: Mon, 22 Jun 2009 13:46:41 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] =?utf-8?b?4KSy4KS+4KSy4KSX4KSi4KS8OiDgpI/gpJUg4KSb?= =?utf-8?b?4KWL4KSf4KWHIOCksuCli+CkleCkpOCkguCkpOCljeCksCDgpJXgpL4g?= =?utf-8?b?4KSs4KSh4KWH4KS8IOCksuCli+CkleCkpOCkguCkpOCljeCksCDgpJU=?= =?utf-8?b?4KWHIOCksuCkv+Ckr+ClhyDgpJbgpKTgpLDgpL4=?= Message-ID: लालगढ़: एक छोटे लोकतंत्र का बडे़ लोकतंत्र के लिये खतरा वे शांति स्थापना के लिये निकले हैं ज़ाहिर है कब्रिस्तान में शोर नहीं होता.... लालगढ़ को अशांत घोषित कर दिया गया है. इस अशांति के मायने क्या हैं? क्या यह कि तकरीबन १८७ गाँवों में संथाली आदिवासी लोगों ने अपनी कमेटियाँ बना ली हैं, वे अपने सुख-दुख का आपस में निपटारा करने का प्रयास कर रहे हैं, गाँव की किसी समस्या का समाधान गाँव में ही कर लेना चाहते हैं. यानि गाँव के लोगों का गाँव के लोगों पर शासन, एक छोटा सा लोकतंत्र आदिवासी समाज का लोकतंत्र. क्योंकि बडा़ लोकतंत्र बडों का हो चुका है इसलिये उन पर नज़र ही नहीं जाती. बडे़ लोकतंत्र का ढांचा बडा़ है, पुलिस है, फौज़ है, कानून की एक मोटी सी किताब भी है जिसमे पूरी अरब भर जनता को नियंत्रित करने के फार्मूले हैं पर फार्मूले वही लगा सकते हैं जो पढे़ लिखे हों. संथाली आदिवासी की स्थिति तो ये है कि रात के थोडे़ से अंधेरे को अपने भूख के साथ सान कर खा जाता है और सो जाता है. ऎसे में एक छोटा लोकतंत्र बडे़ लोकतंत्र के लिये खतरा बन जाता है. क्या मैं इस बडे़ लोकतंत्र को लोकतंत्र कहूँ? दरअसल वहाँ अशांति यही है कि वहाँ पुलिस और सेना नहीं है. और बिना पुलिस और सेना के कहीं शांति कैसे रह सकती है? क्या आप कल्पना करना चाहेंगे उस स्थान की जहाँ पुलिस न हो और लोग अपनी समस्यायें खुद हल कर लेते हों. यानि पुलिस के न होने का अर्थ है उन सारी चीजों का न होना जो पुलिस के होने के साथ मौजूद होती हैं. लालगढ़ में आज की स्थिति पर कुछ भी कहने से पहले हमे उसकी ऎतिहासिकता में उसे देखना होगा, नवम्बर से अब तक दो बातें स्पष्ट रूप से उभर कर आयेंगी एक तो यह कि आदिवासी अपने जंगल की जमीन को किसी भी स्टील प्लांट के लिये देना नहीं चाहते वे नहीं चाहते कि अपनी जमीनों पर बुलोडोजर चलता हुआ वे देखें, पर सरकार ५००० एकड़, सज्जन जिंदल को देने पर तुली है. दूसरी यह कि वे सेना और पुलिस की सुरक्षा भी नहीं चाहते क्योंकि सुरक्षा के मायने अब वे जान चुके हैं और सुरक्षा से उन्हें खतरा है जिसके बाबत उन्होंने सड़कें काट डाली, आने-जाने के रास्ते बंद कर दिये. कई बार अपनी मांगों के साथ धरने पर बैठे जो कुल छोटी- बडी़ मिलाकर १३ मांगे थी, आस-पास के गाँवों को एकता बद्ध कर रैली निकाली. रैली पर गोली चलायी गयी और ३ युवाओं को मार दिया गया जो सभा की या एकता की अगुवाई कर रहे थे. मानों ३ गोलियों से तीन मांगे पूरी की गयी हों. उनकी जायज़ मांगों को देखते हुए सी.पी.एम. के कई कार्यकर्ता उनके साथ जुड़ गये. यह सब कुछ ऎसा चल रहा था मानों राज्य में एक नया राज्य कायम हो गया हो. फरवरी में आदिवासी-ओ- गैरआदिवासी एकता समिति बनायी गयी. इसके बनाये जाने के क्या मायने लगाये जायें? कि अब तक आदिवासियों और गैर आदिवासियों के बीच कोई एकता ही नहीं थी. शायद हां, शायद नहीं. यह एक शांति अभियान था ठीक वैसा ही जैसा सलवा-जुडुम. आदिवासी युवकों को जान से मारा जाने लगा और आदिवासियों द्वारा इन्हें भी इन्हीं के छीने हथियार से. यानि यह अपने स्वरूप में एक दूसरे को मारने की एकता की समिति बनी. मुर्दों की एकता, मरने के बाद चुप रहने की एकता, प्रतिरोध में खून की एकता. आदिवासियों के भूख और वंचना से उठे आक्रोश की एकता को तोड़ने के लिये उनके साथ हमेशा इसी तरह की एकता बनायी गयी. लालगढ़ अब अशांत हो चुका था उसे शांत करने की जरूरत थी जिसका अर्थ था पुलिस और फौज को दुबारा तैनात किया जाना. क्योंकि हमारे देश में अशांत को शांत करने का एक मात्र यही तरीका है. यहाँ तक की भूख की आग भी पुलिस की तैनाती से शांत होती है. बूट की आवाज़ों से लोगों के कान सहम जायें और आवाज़ें चुप हो जायें. देश के २८ राज्यों में से २४ राज्य ऎसे ही हैं. लालगढ़ में फौज बुलायी गयी अर्ध सैनिक बल आये, पर घुसने में नाकामयाब रहे लोगों ने प्रतिरोध किया उन पर आंसू गैस छोडी़ गयी. लाठियां बरसायी गयी. पुलिस अंदर पहुंच कर घरों की तलाशी की, औरतों को नंगा करके उनकी तलाशी ली जा रही है. पर वह नहीं मिल रहा है जिसे पुलिस ढूढ़ रही है और जो मिल रहा है उसे देख भी नहीं रही. यह है उनकी भूख जो उनके नंगे होने के बाद भी उनके बदन पर चिपकी रह जाती है. अपनी ज़मीन के छीने जाने के प्रतिरोध का हल है अस्मत का लूटा जाना या मौत के घाट उतार दिये जाना. एक तथाकथित अति सभ्य समाज अपने निर्माण के लिये एक पिछ्डे़ कहे जाने वाले समाज के साथ यह सलूक उस समय होता देख रहा है जब दुनिया के सबसे बडे़ लोकतंत्र का चुनाव हुए दो माह भी नहीं बीते हैं. २० जून को लालगढ़ में पुलिस कब्जा जमाने के सिलसिले में ५ और आदिवासियों को मारा गया, यह ठीक उस समय हुआ होगा जब आप चाय पी रहे होंगे, किसी दफ्तर की ए.सी. में बैठे रहे होंगे या जहाँ भी रह कर खबर सुनी हो. क्या थोडी़ सी भी कम्पन शरीर में नहीं हुई. शायद सभ्य समाज का निर्माण यही है संवेदनाओं का मर जाना. ठीक उसी दिन पश्चिम बंगाल के मुख्यमंत्री बुद्धदेव भट्टाचार्य जी प्रधानमंत्री और गृहमंत्री से मिलकर यह बताया कि लालगढ़ के लोगों को ममता बनर्जी व उनकी पार्टी का सहयोग मिल रहा है जिसमे माओवादी भी शामिल हैं,यह पहली बार नहीं कहा गया था बल्कि नंदीग्राम से सिंगूर तक कई बार कहा गया पर आश्चर्य कि इसी सहयोग करने के या सम्बन्ध होने के आधार पर बिनायक सेन को जेल होती है और तब तक कैद रखे जाते हैं जब तक वे कुछ नहीं करने लायक बचते यानि हृदय रोग की अवस्था में उन्हें छोडा़ जाता है पर ममता बनर्जी को बुद्धदेव जी जेल नहीं भेज सकते क्योंकि ममता बनर्जी बडे़ लोकतंत्र की बडी़ स्तम्भ हैं. उनके हाथ में बंदूक है, तो यह उनकी वीरता है. लोगों के हाथ में बंदूक है तो यह उनका जुर्म क्यों? -- chandrika mahatma gandhi antarrashtriya hindi vishvavidyalay ramayan hostal vaid lay out civil line wardha , maharashtra. ph. 9890987458 www.dakhalkiduniya.blogspot.com From M.Mohebi at lse.ac.uk Fri Jun 19 18:43:49 2009 From: M.Mohebi at lse.ac.uk (M.Mohebi at lse.ac.uk) Date: Fri, 19 Jun 2009 14:13:49 +0100 Subject: [Reader-list] Iran Message-ID: Hi there, Some interesting videos/photo essays Here is a video: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4QZ-Gb1Q8Ao These are some nice photo essays: http://www.payvand.com/news/09/jun/1177.html http://www.payvand.com/news/09/jun/1178.html http://www.payvand.com/news/09/jun/1191.html Please access the attached hyperlink for an important electronic communications disclaimer: http://www.lse.ac.uk/collections/secretariat/legal/disclaimer.htm From kiccovich at yahoo.com Thu Jun 25 14:13:02 2009 From: kiccovich at yahoo.com (francesca recchia) Date: Thu, 25 Jun 2009 01:43:02 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Reader-list] mediamatic travel guide of erbil Message-ID: <743369.33031.qm@web31706.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Dear all If any of you would happen to stop by in northern iraq might fine the travel guide useful! http://travel.mediamatic.net/page/1192 Peace francesca francesca recchia kiccovich at yahoo.com it +39 338 166 3648 iq +964 (0) 750 7085 681 http://www.veleno.tv/bollettini/ From rotigraphy at gmail.com Thu Jun 25 14:19:19 2009 From: rotigraphy at gmail.com (satish) Date: Thu, 25 Jun 2009 14:34:19 +0545 Subject: [Reader-list] =?utf-8?q?=28no_subject=29?= Message-ID: <4A433A0C.00001E.02720@SOOJI> THE ROVING EYE Iran's streets are lost, but hope returns By Pepe Escobar PARIS - The angel of history lives in Iran - even though Manichean progressives of all stripes, especially in the United States, insist on believing the overwhelming popular uprising in Iran is nothing but one more US Central Intelligence Agency-engineered "color" revolution. Confronted with this, Iranian journalists and the Diaspora in Paris, including people just arriving from Tehran, are puzzled: how hard is it to understand, they say, that Supreme Leader Ayatollah Ali Khamenei has in fact ceased to be an arbiter and has legitimized a coup, steering the regime towards totalitarianism, striking off "republic" from "Islamic Republic" and in a Brechtian twist, virtually abolishing the people? As an Iranian businessman who goes back and forth between Tehran and Paris puts it, "People in the West don't seem to understand that the political struggle in Iran is not about liberals versus conservatives, but conservatives against a fascist tendency uniting some sectors of the clergy, and this state within the state which are the Pasdaran [IRGC - Iranian Revolutionary Guards Corps]. Both the nuclear program and the missiles are under the control of the Pasdaran. And who are they? They are former fighters in the Iran-Iraq war [of the 1908s], the religious police .. They control everything, they have informants in every building, every street, every neighborhood, like the Nazis in Germany in the 1930s." Mir Hossein Mousavi, hurled by the breakneck pace of events to the status of channel for the angel of history (in spite of himself), refuses to go away - even if he has done the unthinkable (in Islamic Republic terms): to challenge the supreme leader in public. Ali Larijani, former nuclear negotiator, supreme leader protege, is wavering; he has accused the Guardians Council of bias towards re-elected President Mahmud Ahmadinejad. The Council of Experts, in the holy city of Qom, may be wavering. But Paris-based Iranian journalists don't believe former president Akbar Hashemi Rafsanjani, although hyper-connected, would have enough votes to at least force an investigation of the actions of the supreme leader, who has peppered the council with his own proteges. The all-powerful IRGC is definitely not wavering. It obeys to the hilt the directives of General Ali Jafari, the former head of the IRGC Strategic Studies Center, the man put in charge by the supreme leader in 2007 to crack the code of possible Western-engineered color revolutions. The special, anti-riot al-Zahra and Ashura brigades, mixed with the paramilitary Basiji, simply took over the streets. The repression is massive. Newly arrived Iranians confirm one can't even breathe in the capital. Noted commentator Masoud Behnoud, in his blog, can't bring himself to fire off his customary darts of irony. He writes, "The Council of Guardians could have played a role to stop the degradation of the situation. The problem is everything depends on Ayatollah [Ahmad] Jannati, its president. Well, he follows for more than 20 years now the road map of the fundamentalist right. Iranian cartoonist Nikahang Kowsar reads the popular mind immortalizing the 2009 Iranian remix of China's crackdown in Tiananmen Square in 1989. Khamenei, the new Saddam Mohsen Sazegara, president of the Washington-based Research Institute for Contemporary Iran, was one of the founders of the IRGC, in the earliest stages after the 1979 revolution. He does not mince his words. For him, Khamenei "made the biggest mistake of is life"; "he thought that with the Revolutionary Guards and the Ministry of Interior he could conquer a nation" Sazegara stresses, "for the first time in 120 years, Iranians mobilize themselves without religious help and with no religious motivation". As for the regime's repression machine, he points out that "those who kill the protesters, those we call the 'white shirts', are Revolutionary Guards, they belong to a special brigade of the intelligence division [he's referring to the above-mentioned Ashura brigade]. They look like civilians, but they have knives, iron bars and weapons". Sazegara qualifies the nearly 120,000 Revolutionary Guards as "an army, an intelligence service and a huge enterprise. Khamenei marginalized some of the founders and war heroes and replaced them with underlings". It's hard to estimate how popular the IRGC really is. Sazegara heard insistent rumors on the arrest of seven generals. One of his friends, also a general, told him the majority of the IRGC, does not agree with what many Iranians are branding as "the coup". Sazegara insists Khamenei's regime "is already security obsessed and militarized. There's no turning back for such a brutal regime. For last Friday's prayers, he mobilized his supporters all over the country. I was expecting to see 500,000 people, but according to our friends, there were no more than 50,000. Many of his partisans remain neutral, or are ashamed. If he manages to repress the Iranian people, he'll become a military dictator like Saddam Hussein. He'll be the king of a cemetery." Reza Baraheni, author of Les Mysteres de Mon Pays (The Mysteries of My Country), published this year in France, feels that the confrontation between the government and the people gives him an impression of deja vu. But he's optimistic; "A generation of sons face off against a generation of fathers. Just as the previous generation took power off the hands of the Shah, it won't be long before the Islamic power goes to those who oppose it. The solutions to similar problems are not always identical. But the cruelty of both regimes is identical - as well as their incapacity to assimilate the modernity embodied by democracy, and their fear of a different future for them and for the country they control." Philosopher Ramin Jahanbegloo, from the University of Toronto, frames the crisis as rooted "between the popular thirst for democratization of state and society and the conservative reaction". Mousavi and Mehdi Karoubi believed that "the Islamic nomenklatura would leave some place for reform". And yet, "the protesters are not revolutionaries. These young people remind us that a monolithic image of the country does not necessarily reflect the state of mind of the 70% of the population that is less than 30 years old. The fracture between state and people has never been greater". So this is a "political fight between the republican nature of Iran and its religious oligarchy. The republican instinct consists in paying almost exclusive attention to the legitimacy of public space, while the religious establishment refuses to concede a minimum of legitimacy to the judgment of public opinion". That's why "Iran is immersed in a crisis of legitimacy without precedent in its political history." Azadeh Kian, professor of sociology at the University of Paris VII, stresses the composition of Mousavi's electoral front: "They belong to the structured social groups, notably the middle classes, workers, traders and entrepreneurs who suffer, more than others, the consequences of a soaring monopolization of the economy for political ends, of an inflation between 27% and 30%, of a huge unemployment rate (between 30% and 50% amidst the young, according to estimates), and the flight of Iranian and foreign capital. No jobs are being created for the 800,00 young people who enter the Iranian job market every year". Kian points out how "many economists, including two former directors of the Central Bank who had resigned", are sure that "Ahmadinejad has ruined the country". He squandered all the reserves accumulated during the Khatami presidency; some as handouts for the poor, while his machine recruited masses of rural, unemployed youngsters for the Basiji. For Kian, "conservatives, and their base in the traditional middle classes, the grand bazaaris and the majority of Qom clerics, they are not allied with the president anymore". Newly arrived Iranians corroborate it, insisting Ahmadinejad will have a very rough ride. The agony of illegitimacy Journalist Nairi Nahapetian, author of Qui a tue l'Ayatollah Kanooni? (Who killed Ayatollah Kannoni?), hints at what strategies may lie ahead, stressing, "An educated, largely urban population, in a country with efficient infrastructure, continues to live under an Islamic law, sometimes mocking it and always finding a way around it, including in the fringes that are not part of the Westernized bourgeoisie." He makes it clear: "Since the early 20th century, Iran faces important movements of popular revolt every 30 to 40 years. In 1906-1911, it was a constitutional revolution. In 1951, under [premier Mohammad] Mossadegh, it was the aborted attempt to nationalize oil. In 1979, the toppling of the shah, perceived as a US puppet. It's as if every generation tried at a particular time to take the destiny of the country in its hands, and the management of the oil revenues in particular." Nahapetian inevitably blasts "Ahmadinejad's policy of massive subventions to pacify the popular classes". He says he "increased an already uncontrollable inflation and did nothing to reduce the Iranian economy's dependency of oil" The Iranian intelligentsia and those commuting from Tehran are unanimous: the legitimacy of the regime as a whole is in play. The regime can't allow the genie of democracy to get out of the lamp, for it would open a Pandora's box of dreams. And people power may have lost the street - facing a massive repression machine; but people are not afraid anymore. They believe another Iran is possible. All hopes lie on a protracted, creative, subversive, underground and parallel movement of civil disobedience, with strikes and mourning ceremonies, up and down, with lulls and crescendos. The 1978/1979 Iranian revolution lasted, back to back, roughly one year. The seeds of the next one have already been planted. The angel of history silently surveys it all. Pepe Escobar is the author of Globalistan: How the Globalized World is Dissolving into Liquid War (Nimble Books, 2007) and Red Zone Blues: a snapshot of Baghdad during the surge. His new book, just out, is Obama does Globalistan (Nimble Books, 2009). He may be reached at pepeasia at yahoo.com. From jollykuru at gmail.com Thu Jun 25 15:13:55 2009 From: jollykuru at gmail.com (jolly kuru) Date: Thu, 25 Jun 2009 15:13:55 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] EXclude my name Message-ID: Dear ones kindly exclude my name fro reader's list i found it not only useful but annoying too regards jolly From peter.ksmtf at gmail.com Thu Jun 25 16:06:51 2009 From: peter.ksmtf at gmail.com (T Peter) Date: Thu, 25 Jun 2009 16:06:51 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] CMZ Notification Message-ID: <3457ce860906250336u6ba138fag533a96e25b63208b@mail.gmail.com> Dear Friends, The Kerala Swatantra Matsya Thozhilali Federation (Kerala Independent Fishworkers Federation) would like to draw your attention to certain alarming developments with respect to coastal policy reforms. We urge you to join us in immediately resistance. As you might be aware, the ten-month period that the Ministry of Environment and Forests (MoEF) had given itself to vet public comments received on the Draft Coastal Management Zone (CMZ) 2008 Notification comes to an end in June. This Draft, based on the recommendations of the much-criticized Swaminathan Committee Report, was an attempt to dismantle existing coastal regulation and open up coastal regions for fast-paced, destructive economic development. It was opposed not only by coastal communities, environmental groups, women’s organizations, trade unions, NGOs but also by several coastal state governments. The most recent caution against introducing such a coastal management regime came in March 2009 from a high-powered Parliamentary Standing Committee. In the face of such opposition, the MoEF appears to be resorting to underhand and devious methods to launch the CMZ. The Minister, Jairam Ramesh has announced that on July 16 a fresh ‘hybrid’ rule will be issued that will combine existing rules with the recommendations of the Swaminathan Committee Report. This is nothing but the CMZ in the guise of existing rules, that is to say, illicit new wine in an old bottle! We must stand united in opposing this appalling move of the MoEF. A statement to this effect is given below which we urge you to endorse. Please write back to us with your endorsement and also do gather and send us endorsements from other organizations. The email address for responding is given below. In solidarity, T.Peter, President, Kerala Swatantra Matsya Thozhilali Federation (KSMTF) Peter.ksmtf at gmail.com, mobile:09447429243 www.keralafishworkers.org, www.alakal.net From c.anupam at gmail.com Thu Jun 25 16:33:59 2009 From: c.anupam at gmail.com (anupam chakravartty) Date: Thu, 25 Jun 2009 16:33:59 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] [Lalgarh Does not Exist] In-Reply-To: <7271ec560906250048p35d6b6edjdd62be579358403d@mail.gmail.com> References: <782279.15968.qm@web94713.mail.in2.yahoo.com> <7271ec560906240212i3e741362s2c2a70ddbfe08e9a@mail.gmail.com> <341380d00906240322q1cd53a83m477568847044e3a5@mail.gmail.com> <7271ec560906240409m7d155ac0w80b44bd1862e6c59@mail.gmail.com> <341380d00906240433r680b22b0p905807488da8af9e@mail.gmail.com> <7271ec560906250048p35d6b6edjdd62be579358403d@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <341380d00906250403x4e55e069u14499449de46ae10@mail.gmail.com> dear rajen, thanks so much for saying that. i look forward to more such fruitful discussions with you. i agree with what you have said in your last mail completely. -anuapm On Thu, Jun 25, 2009 at 1:18 PM, Rajendra Bhat Uppinangadi < rajen786uppinangady at gmail.com> wrote: > Dear Anupam, > > it is not pertinent whether you cite millions or few hundreds, of the > incidents of crime and violence, the issue is such criminals have to be > taken care by rule of laws, no justification or excuse that it is "reaction" > to action will suffice, is unjustifiable. > > With population of over one billion, the incidents of deviants have to be > dealt firmly, according to laws, judicial system fine tunes to act quickly, > as justice is not only to be delivered, but seen to be as > delivered.Individuals or group of individuals becoming vigilantes or > delivering justice vecause the system is slow is only compounding the issues > in to bigger problems of law and order as the law keepers will be > outnumbered by such mobs, and chaos will be the result in society fo all > citizens.Justifying any type of violence is absolutely absurd, as it only > encourages the individuals to form a critical mass of numbers of individuals > to indulge in violence, extortion, rape and ilegal acts on other citizens. > > Regards, > > Rajen. > > > On Wed, Jun 24, 2009 at 5:03 PM, anupam chakravartty wrote: > >> Dear Rajen, >> >> Sir i can cite millions of similar examples from the north east, who have >> been killed selectively for the past 19 years from Assam, Manipur, >> Nagaland. >> You may not even find chargesheets for them. the only witness is a lone >> wife, or a mother or a sister. you know people usually dont lie about >> missing people and suffer the prying eyes of the society. At least we know >> that Sadhvi Pragya is in a custody. What are your thought 1192 persons >> including wife of one Satish Mishra burnt in the Godhra train carnage, who >> is officially still missing in the police records. these are the seeds of >> discontent that lawmakers are sowing -- the so called morally upright. i >> have no sympathies for sadhvi or any one who is abetting or encouraging >> these activities even in the case of naxals but i would be interested as >> to >> find the root of all these discontentment. however, if i am asked to rank >> naxals and hindu right or muslim fundamentalism or zionism or violent >> evangelism, i would say naxals or maoists are more real and have a better >> ideology than fundamentalists. at least in their aims, they are supposed >> to be fighting for the cause of the downtrodden. my only cause of concern >> is >> the use of violent means to gather support and selective killing of the >> feudal lord by the naxals. however, fundamentalism doesnt deserve a space >> in >> the democracy. never...never. it is evil to think that i am a hindu >> that's why i should rule the land and be the law...its purely evil. >> >> thanks anupam >> >> On 6/24/09, Rajendra Bhat Uppinangadi >> wrote: >> > >> > dear Anupam, >> > >> > a citizen of the nation only becomes the politician , police officer >> or >> > law keeper and elite security personnel, Any one who breaks law has to >> be >> > under scanner of same rule of laws, democracy in practice is where >> > irrespective of the status, faith or contents of the purse of the >> > individual, rule of laws prevails. But we see different yardsticks being >> > used by our citizens on different occassions, just one example, a 28 >> year >> > old lady is in custody of SIT in mumbai for months now, with >> investigation >> > not showing any progress or proof, but we talk of our concerns,worry >> about >> > some, selectively, not about this lady, because she is labeled as >> sadhvi.? >> > What about human rights of this lady and eleven others who for the sake >> of >> > vote gains, division of votes were arrested by a ruthless fuedal leader >> > using honest cop, Hemanth karkare.? >> > >> > On Wed, Jun 24, 2009 at 3:52 PM, anupam chakravartty < >> c.anupam at gmail.com>wrote: >> > >> >> dear rajen, >> >> >> >> you should have included the politicians, the police officials, CRPF >> >> members >> >> who take violent measures to quell violence. its ironical but true as >> well >> >> as in several places in andhra pradesh, manipur, kashmir. politicians >> are >> >> biggest sympathiser of such actions..they are equally responsible. >> instead >> >> of question why such violent forms of dissent are happening across the >> >> nation, you are just discussing what forms of dissent should be >> employed. >> >> why there should be so much of strife? unless you dont understand and >> >> express your thoughts about that talking merely about violence becomes >> >> irrelevant. >> >> >> >> second, inclusion of binayak sen and teesta setalvad along with praveen >> >> togadia makes your argument really weak here. because you seem to have >> one >> >> yardstick to measure everyone -- either you are with us ( the so-called >> >> law >> >> abiding citizens) or you are an enemy of the state. however problems in >> >> this nation exist in particular as it is a diverse country. even >> several >> >> state security agencies do not employ similar measures in tackling with >> >> the issues in chattisgarh to quell naxalite movement, while keeping the >> >> communal rioting at bay. so how are presenting binayak sen and praveen >> >> togadia in the same pedestal. the word "sympathiser" has several >> >> connotations. you can sympathise with the cause that a particular >> movement >> >> is raising but may not sympathise the means by which solutions to the >> >> problem are being taken by these banned organisations. >> >> >> >> -thanks anupam >> >> >> >> On 6/24/09, Rajendra Bhat Uppinangadi >> >> wrote: >> >> >> >> > Dear All, >> >> > >> >> > any citizen, in his / her excercise of rights of freedom to >> >> expression >> >> > can express his/her views in democratic India, but taking laws into >> >> their >> >> > own hands as a way of demonstration of protest is not acceptable in >> any >> >> > society, as this violence not only hurts the innocents, but also >> >> destroys >> >> > the civil liberties of citizens and violence only begets more of it. >> Be >> >> it >> >> > naxalites, maoists, fanatics of any faith, when they resort to >> violent >> >> > means >> >> > of addressing the issues that they percieve as wrong, it destroys the >> >> > societal harmony, liberties of the citizens, worse, it ushers in >> >> atrocities >> >> > by the state machinery on every citizen under assumption that he/she >> is >> >> > "sympathiser" >> >> > of such violent actions of these groups. Binayak Sen and all other >> well >> >> > meaning individuals of naxalites also fall in this category,just as >> a >> >> > praveen togadia or afjal guru and geelanis and theestas of the >> nation. >> >> Let >> >> > the laws of the land take firm and definite action against law >> breakers, >> >> > whether in uniform or citizens of the nation, only rule of laws which >> if >> >> > impartial, non partisan, without fear or favour acts on the deviants >> in >> >> the >> >> > society, the democracy will floursh, dissent without violent action >> to >> >> > express dissent is acceptable, but dissent in the form of violence is >> >> not >> >> > acceptable in civil society. >> >> > >> >> > Regards, >> >> > >> >> > Rajen. >> >> > On Tue, Jun 23, 2009 at 11:14 PM, subhrodip sengupta < >> >> > sub_sengupta at yahoo.co.in> wrote: >> >> > >> >> > > Maoist spokesman detained in Kolkata for questioning. Finally to >> >> threaten >> >> > > these people you yeild the rod in central Kolkata. Nothing new, >> they >> >> had >> >> > > always been. Now specially when govt gets itchy over NAxalite's >> >> strategy, >> >> > > what aft But detaining spokespersons or message bearers is against >> >> > > politics.. Naah these guys wanna rub out the traits of Maoism from >> all >> >> > books >> >> > > in India, something in which the Khilji's failed. Bad luck, Mr. >> >> > Chakravorty, >> >> > > you are in the police net. As for Central Kol., it has always >> >> woitnessed >> >> > > police attrocities for the last decade. Off course there might be >> some >> >> > bomb, >> >> > > etc. but isnt this guy a herald. A few women were similarly held in >> >> Delhi >> >> > > recently on same allegations without substantial proof as if thus >> the >> >> > > ideology can be erased and the system and the ranks rationalised. >> This >> >> > came >> >> > > hopefully as a reaction to a pro-people's assembly where some noted >> >> > > activist threated to arrange a Dharna before writers and >> BUddhadev's >> >> > office, >> >> > > with >> >> > > off course many Maoists, if CPI(ML) was banned. The ideology is >> >> clearly >> >> > > more dangerous and revolutionary than the army! Messing up things >> will >> >> > > definitely not help, Mr. Bhattacharya! LAlgarh lives on, as a >> >> revolution. >> >> > > Does First War of Independance( Ok revolt of 1857 exist?) >> >> > > >> >> > > >> >> > > Love Cricket? Check out live scores, photos, video highlights >> and >> >> > > more. Click here http://cricket.yahoo.com >> >> > > _________________________________________ >> >> > > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. >> >> > > Critiques & Collaborations >> >> > > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with >> >> > > subscribe in the subject header. >> >> > > To unsubscribe: >> https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list >> >> > > List archive: >> >> > >> >> > >> >> > >> >> > >> >> > -- >> >> > Rajen. >> >> > _________________________________________ >> >> > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. >> >> > Critiques & Collaborations >> >> > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with >> >> > subscribe in the subject header. >> >> > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list >> >> >> >> > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> >> >> _________________________________________ >> >> reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. >> >> Critiques & Collaborations >> >> To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with >> >> subscribe in the subject header. >> >> To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list >> >> >> >> List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > -- >> > Rajen. >> > >> > >> _________________________________________ >> reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. >> Critiques & Collaborations >> To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with >> subscribe in the subject header. >> To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list >> List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> >> > > > > -- > Rajen. > From kshmendra2005 at yahoo.com Thu Jun 25 17:16:21 2009 From: kshmendra2005 at yahoo.com (Kshmendra Kaul) Date: Thu, 25 Jun 2009 04:46:21 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Reader-list] [Lalgarh Does not Exist] Message-ID: <704465.18901.qm@web57205.mail.re3.yahoo.com> Dear Rajen   I think Anupam made a valid point which cannot be dismissed under generalisations.   If I underrstood correctly, Anupam also finds unacceptable any violence whether perpetrated in the name of  "naxals" or "hindu right" or "muslim fundamentalism" or "zionism" or "violent evangelism".   But Anupam would like "naxalism" and "maoism" to be looked at differently from the others mentioned. In this I agree with him.   If India is a Democracy and supposed to be a Secular one, then Divinations or self-arrogation of believed in Divinely-ordained-Rights cannot be acceptable. Religion by itself is based on irrationalities, or to use a kinder word "Belief". In the name of a Religion, words and acts that create divides or pronounce the superiority of one over the other cannot be acceptable. Violence in the name of Religion is an attempt to enforce the acceptance of such presumed superiority. Sorry Sir! Not acceptable.   Where Naxalism and Maoism differ is in their being based not on irrationalities but in 'dissatisfactions' provoked by being subjected to Discrimination; Exploitation; Unjust Treatment; Non-Availability of Justice: Non-Delivery of Justice.   The violence, excesses, depravations in the name of Religion can simply be done away with by doing away with Religions or as is more practical by doing away with the Recognition of Religions (by the State, while they may continue as private affairs). Doing either or at least the latter will not be a loss to humankind.   To do away with the violence, depravations, excesses in the name of "Naxalism" and "Maoism" we will need to do away with the "  Discrimination; Exploitation; Unjust Treatment; Non-Availability of Justice: Non-Delivery of Justice.". That will only make the world better.   I hope you can recognise the offered distinction between the two sets.   In any case, Anupam too does not find acceptable the violence in the name of "Naxalism", "Maoism" either.   Religious-Extremism needs to be supressed. Social-Extremism needs to be addressed with credible solutions.   Kshmendra   --- On Thu, 6/25/09, Rajendra Bhat Uppinangadi wrote: From: Rajendra Bhat Uppinangadi Subject: Re: [Reader-list] [Lalgarh Does not Exist] To: "anupam chakravartty" Cc: "sarai list" Date: Thursday, June 25, 2009, 1:18 PM Dear Anupam, it is not pertinent whether you cite millions or few hundreds, of the incidents of crime and violence, the issue is such criminals have to be taken care by rule of laws, no justification or excuse that it is "reaction" to action will suffice, is unjustifiable. With population of over one billion, the incidents of deviants have to be dealt firmly, according to laws, judicial system fine tunes to act quickly, as justice is not only to be delivered, but seen to be as delivered.Individuals or group of individuals becoming vigilantes or delivering justice vecause the system is slow is only compounding the issues in to bigger problems of law and order as the law keepers will be outnumbered by such mobs, and chaos will be the result in society fo all citizens.Justifying any type of violence is absolutely absurd, as it only encourages the individuals to form a critical mass of numbers of individuals to indulge in violence, extortion, rape and ilegal acts on other citizens. Regards, Rajen. On Wed, Jun 24, 2009 at 5:03 PM, anupam chakravartty wrote: > Dear Rajen, > > Sir i can cite millions of similar examples from the north east, who have > been killed selectively for the past 19 years from Assam, Manipur, > Nagaland. > You may not even find chargesheets for them. the only witness is a lone > wife, or a mother or a sister. you know people usually dont lie about > missing people and suffer the prying eyes of the society. At least we know > that Sadhvi Pragya is in a custody. What are your thought 1192 persons > including wife of one Satish Mishra burnt in the Godhra train carnage, who > is officially still missing in the police records. these are the seeds of > discontent that lawmakers are sowing -- the so called morally upright. i > have no sympathies for sadhvi or any one who is abetting or encouraging > these activities even in the case of naxals but i would be interested as to > find the root of all these discontentment. however, if i am asked to rank > naxals and hindu right or muslim fundamentalism or zionism or violent > evangelism, i would say naxals or maoists are more real and have a better > ideology than fundamentalists. at least in their aims, they are supposed > to be fighting for the cause of the downtrodden. my only cause of concern > is > the use of violent means to gather support and selective killing of the > feudal lord by the naxals. however, fundamentalism doesnt deserve a space > in > the democracy. never...never. it is evil to think that i am a hindu > that's why i should rule the land and be the law...its purely evil. > > thanks anupam > > On 6/24/09, Rajendra Bhat Uppinangadi > wrote: > > > > dear Anupam, > > > >    a citizen of the nation only becomes the politician , police officer > or > > law keeper and elite security personnel, Any one who breaks law has to be > > under  scanner of same rule of laws, democracy in practice is where > > irrespective of the status, faith or contents of the  purse of the > > individual, rule of laws prevails. But we see different yardsticks being > > used by our citizens on different occassions, just one example, a 28 year > > old lady is in custody of SIT in mumbai for months now, with > investigation > > not showing any progress or proof, but we talk of our concerns,worry > about > > some,  selectively, not about this lady, because she is labeled as > sadhvi.? > > What about human rights of this lady and eleven others who for the sake > of > > vote gains, division of votes were arrested by a ruthless fuedal leader > > using honest cop, Hemanth karkare.? > > > > On Wed, Jun 24, 2009 at 3:52 PM, anupam chakravartty >wrote: > > > >> dear rajen, > >> > >> you should have included the politicians, the police officials, CRPF > >> members > >> who take violent measures to quell violence. its ironical but true as > well > >> as in several places in andhra pradesh, manipur, kashmir. politicians > are > >> biggest sympathiser of such actions..they are equally responsible. > instead > >> of question why such violent forms of dissent are happening across the > >> nation, you are just discussing what forms of dissent should be > employed. > >> why there should be so much of strife? unless you dont understand and > >> express your thoughts about that talking merely about violence becomes > >> irrelevant. > >> > >> second, inclusion of binayak sen and teesta setalvad along with praveen > >> togadia makes your argument really weak here. because you seem to have > one > >> yardstick to measure everyone -- either you are with us ( the so-called > >> law > >> abiding citizens) or you are an enemy of the state. however problems in > >> this nation exist in particular as it is a diverse country. even several > >> state security agencies do not employ similar measures in tackling with > >> the issues in chattisgarh to quell naxalite movement, while keeping the > >> communal rioting at bay. so how are presenting binayak sen and praveen > >> togadia in the same pedestal. the word "sympathiser" has several > >> connotations. you can sympathise with the cause that a particular > movement > >> is raising but may not sympathise the means by which solutions to the > >> problem are being taken by these banned organisations. > >> > >> -thanks anupam > >> > >> On 6/24/09, Rajendra Bhat Uppinangadi > >> wrote: > >> > >> > Dear All, > >> > > >> >    any citizen, in his / her excercise of rights of freedom to > >> expression > >> > can express his/her views in democratic India, but taking laws into > >> their > >> > own hands as a way of demonstration of protest is not acceptable in > any > >> > society, as this violence not only hurts the innocents, but also > >> destroys > >> > the civil liberties of citizens and violence only begets more of it. > Be > >> it > >> > naxalites, maoists, fanatics of any faith, when they resort to violent > >> > means > >> > of addressing the issues that they percieve as wrong, it destroys the > >> > societal harmony, liberties of the citizens, worse, it ushers in > >> atrocities > >> > by the state machinery on every citizen under assumption that he/she > is > >> > "sympathiser" > >> > of such violent actions of these groups. Binayak Sen and all other > well > >> > meaning individuals  of naxalites also fall in this category,just as a > >> > praveen togadia or afjal guru and geelanis and theestas of the nation. > >> Let > >> > the laws of the land take firm and definite action against law > breakers, > >> > whether in uniform or citizens of the nation, only rule of laws which > if > >> > impartial, non partisan, without fear or favour acts on the deviants > in > >> the > >> > society, the democracy will floursh, dissent without violent action to > >> > express dissent is acceptable, but dissent in the form of violence is > >> not > >> > acceptable in civil society. > >> > > >> > Regards, > >> > > >> > Rajen. > >> > On Tue, Jun 23, 2009 at 11:14 PM, subhrodip sengupta < > >> > sub_sengupta at yahoo.co.in> wrote: > >> > > >> > > Maoist spokesman detained in Kolkata for questioning. Finally to > >> threaten > >> > > these people you yeild the rod in central Kolkata. Nothing new, they > >> had > >> > > always been. Now specially when govt gets itchy over NAxalite's > >> strategy, > >> > > what aft But detaining spokespersons or message bearers is against > >> > > politics.. Naah these guys wanna rub out the traits of Maoism from > all > >> > books > >> > > in India, something in which the Khilji's failed. Bad luck, Mr. > >> > Chakravorty, > >> > > you are in the police net. As for Central Kol., it has always > >> woitnessed > >> > > police attrocities for the last decade. Off course there might be > some > >> > bomb, > >> > > etc. but isnt this guy a herald. A few women were similarly held in > >> Delhi > >> > > recently on same allegations without substantial proof as if thus > the > >> > > ideology can be erased and the system and the ranks rationalised. > This > >> > came > >> > > hopefully as a reaction to a pro-people's assembly where some noted > >> > > activist threated to arrange a Dharna before writers and BUddhadev's > >> > office, > >> > > with > >> > >  off course many Maoists, if CPI(ML) was banned. The ideology is > >> clearly > >> > > more dangerous and revolutionary than the army! Messing up things > will > >> > > definitely not help, Mr. Bhattacharya! LAlgarh lives on, as a > >> revolution. > >> > > Does First War of Independance( Ok revolt of 1857 exist?) > >> > > > >> > > > >> > >      Love Cricket? Check out live scores, photos, video highlights > and > >> > > more. Click here http://cricket.yahoo.com > >> > > _________________________________________ > >> > > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > >> > > Critiques & Collaborations > >> > > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > >> > > subscribe in the subject header. > >> > > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > >> > > List archive: > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > -- > >> > Rajen. > >> > _________________________________________ > >> > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > >> > Critiques & Collaborations > >> > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > >> > subscribe in the subject header. > >> > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > >> > >> > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> > >> _________________________________________ > >> reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > >> Critiques & Collaborations > >> To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > >> subscribe in the subject header. > >> To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > >> > >> List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> > > > > > > > > > > -- > > Rajen. > > > > > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > subscribe in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> > -- Rajen. _________________________________________ reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. Critiques & Collaborations To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with subscribe in the subject header. To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> From rajen786uppinangady at gmail.com Thu Jun 25 17:28:10 2009 From: rajen786uppinangady at gmail.com (Rajendra Bhat Uppinangadi) Date: Thu, 25 Jun 2009 17:28:10 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] [Lalgarh Does not Exist] In-Reply-To: <704465.18901.qm@web57205.mail.re3.yahoo.com> References: <704465.18901.qm@web57205.mail.re3.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <7271ec560906250458v464f5229v9b4709ecc6d66d89@mail.gmail.com> Dear Kshemendra, this remedy suggested by you is like throwing the baby along with water bath as baby is crying for cold water in the bath. The attempt is to save the baby, throw the water which is cold and stale out. In democratic rule of governance any sort of faith has no place, even rational approach to life also be misleading and is a faith of non-believer.! Violence for redressal of injustice and seeking justice by violence is not acceptable , by anyone, for faith, for lack of it or for rational thoughts.The remedy is in addrssing the maladies and delays in the system, genuine efforts to rectify them, which is not a cure achievable like a miracle, it needs sustained efforts by all of us in society.Corruption and dogmas of faith can not survive unless all of us are positive in our approach to negate the violence to show dissent. Regards, Rajen. On Thu, Jun 25, 2009 at 5:16 PM, Kshmendra Kaul wrote: > Dear Rajen > > I think Anupam made a valid point which cannot be dismissed under > generalisations. > > If I underrstood correctly, Anupam also finds unacceptable any violence > whether perpetrated in the name of "naxals" or "hindu right" or "muslim > fundamentalism" or "zionism" or "violent evangelism". > > But Anupam would like "naxalism" and "maoism" to be looked at differently > from the others mentioned. In this I agree with him. > > If India is a Democracy and supposed to be a Secular one, then Divinations > or self-arrogation of believed in Divinely-ordained-Rights cannot be > acceptable. Religion by itself is based on irrationalities, or to use a > kinder word "Belief". In the name of a Religion, words and acts that create > divides or pronounce the superiority of one over the other cannot be > acceptable. Violence in the name of Religion is an attempt to enforce the > acceptance of such presumed superiority. Sorry Sir! Not acceptable. > > Where Naxalism and Maoism differ is in their being based not on > irrationalities but in 'dissatisfactions' provoked by being subjected to > Discrimination; Exploitation; Unjust Treatment; Non-Availability of Justice: > Non-Delivery of Justice. > > The violence, excesses, depravations in the name of Religion can simply be > done away with by doing away with Religions or as is more practical by doing > away with the Recognition of Religions (by the State, while they may > continue as private affairs). Doing either or at least the latter will not > be a loss to humankind. > > To do away with the violence, depravations, excesses in the name of > "Naxalism" and "Maoism" we will need to do away with the " Discrimination; > Exploitation; Unjust Treatment; Non-Availability of Justice: Non-Delivery of > Justice.". That will only make the world better. > > I hope you can recognise the offered distinction between the two sets. > > In any case, Anupam too does not find acceptable the violence in the name > of "Naxalism", "Maoism" either. > > Religious-Extremism needs to be supressed. Social-Extremism needs to be > addressed with credible solutions. > > Kshmendra > > > --- On *Thu, 6/25/09, Rajendra Bhat Uppinangadi < > rajen786uppinangady at gmail.com>* wrote: > > > From: Rajendra Bhat Uppinangadi > Subject: Re: [Reader-list] [Lalgarh Does not Exist] > To: "anupam chakravartty" > Cc: "sarai list" > Date: Thursday, June 25, 2009, 1:18 PM > > > Dear Anupam, > > it is not pertinent whether you cite millions or few hundreds, of the > incidents of crime and violence, the issue is such criminals have to be > taken care by rule of laws, no justification or excuse that it is > "reaction" > to action will suffice, is unjustifiable. > > With population of over one billion, the incidents of deviants have to be > dealt firmly, according to laws, judicial system fine tunes to act quickly, > as justice is not only to be delivered, but seen to be as > delivered.Individuals or group of individuals becoming vigilantes or > delivering justice vecause the system is slow is only compounding the > issues > in to bigger problems of law and order as the law keepers will be > outnumbered by such mobs, and chaos will be the result in society fo all > citizens.Justifying any type of violence is absolutely absurd, as it only > encourages the individuals to form a critical mass of numbers of > individuals > to indulge in violence, extortion, rape and ilegal acts on other citizens. > > Regards, > > Rajen. > > On Wed, Jun 24, 2009 at 5:03 PM, anupam chakravartty > >wrote: > > > Dear Rajen, > > > > Sir i can cite millions of similar examples from the north east, who have > > been killed selectively for the past 19 years from Assam, Manipur, > > Nagaland. > > You may not even find chargesheets for them. the only witness is a lone > > wife, or a mother or a sister. you know people usually dont lie about > > missing people and suffer the prying eyes of the society. At least we > know > > that Sadhvi Pragya is in a custody. What are your thought 1192 persons > > including wife of one Satish Mishra burnt in the Godhra train carnage, > who > > is officially still missing in the police records. these are the seeds of > > discontent that lawmakers are sowing -- the so called morally upright. i > > have no sympathies for sadhvi or any one who is abetting or encouraging > > these activities even in the case of naxals but i would be interested as > to > > find the root of all these discontentment. however, if i am asked to rank > > naxals and hindu right or muslim fundamentalism or zionism or violent > > evangelism, i would say naxals or maoists are more real and have a better > > ideology than fundamentalists. at least in their aims, they are supposed > > to be fighting for the cause of the downtrodden. my only cause of concern > > is > > the use of violent means to gather support and selective killing of the > > feudal lord by the naxals. however, fundamentalism doesnt deserve a space > > in > > the democracy. never...never. it is evil to think that i am a hindu > > that's why i should rule the land and be the law...its purely evil. > > > > thanks anupam > > > > On 6/24/09, Rajendra Bhat Uppinangadi > > > > wrote: > > > > > > dear Anupam, > > > > > > a citizen of the nation only becomes the politician , police officer > > or > > > law keeper and elite security personnel, Any one who breaks law has to > be > > > under scanner of same rule of laws, democracy in practice is where > > > irrespective of the status, faith or contents of the purse of the > > > individual, rule of laws prevails. But we see different yardsticks > being > > > used by our citizens on different occassions, just one example, a 28 > year > > > old lady is in custody of SIT in mumbai for months now, with > > investigation > > > not showing any progress or proof, but we talk of our concerns,worry > > about > > > some, selectively, not about this lady, because she is labeled as > > sadhvi.? > > > What about human rights of this lady and eleven others who for the sake > > of > > > vote gains, division of votes were arrested by a ruthless fuedal leader > > > using honest cop, Hemanth karkare.? > > > > > > On Wed, Jun 24, 2009 at 3:52 PM, anupam chakravartty < > c.anupam at gmail.com > > >wrote: > > > > > >> dear rajen, > > >> > > >> you should have included the politicians, the police officials, CRPF > > >> members > > >> who take violent measures to quell violence. its ironical but true as > > well > > >> as in several places in andhra pradesh, manipur, kashmir. politicians > > are > > >> biggest sympathiser of such actions..they are equally responsible. > > instead > > >> of question why such violent forms of dissent are happening across the > > >> nation, you are just discussing what forms of dissent should be > > employed. > > >> why there should be so much of strife? unless you dont understand and > > >> express your thoughts about that talking merely about violence becomes > > >> irrelevant. > > >> > > >> second, inclusion of binayak sen and teesta setalvad along with > praveen > > >> togadia makes your argument really weak here. because you seem to have > > one > > >> yardstick to measure everyone -- either you are with us ( the > so-called > > >> law > > >> abiding citizens) or you are an enemy of the state. however problems > in > > >> this nation exist in particular as it is a diverse country. even > several > > >> state security agencies do not employ similar measures in tackling > with > > >> the issues in chattisgarh to quell naxalite movement, while keeping > the > > >> communal rioting at bay. so how are presenting binayak sen and praveen > > >> togadia in the same pedestal. the word "sympathiser" has several > > >> connotations. you can sympathise with the cause that a particular > > movement > > >> is raising but may not sympathise the means by which solutions to the > > >> problem are being taken by these banned organisations. > > >> > > >> -thanks anupam > > >> > > >> On 6/24/09, Rajendra Bhat Uppinangadi > > > > >> wrote: > > >> > > >> > Dear All, > > >> > > > >> > any citizen, in his / her excercise of rights of freedom to > > >> expression > > >> > can express his/her views in democratic India, but taking laws into > > >> their > > >> > own hands as a way of demonstration of protest is not acceptable in > > any > > >> > society, as this violence not only hurts the innocents, but also > > >> destroys > > >> > the civil liberties of citizens and violence only begets more of it. > > Be > > >> it > > >> > naxalites, maoists, fanatics of any faith, when they resort to > violent > > >> > means > > >> > of addressing the issues that they percieve as wrong, it destroys > the > > >> > societal harmony, liberties of the citizens, worse, it ushers in > > >> atrocities > > >> > by the state machinery on every citizen under assumption that he/she > > is > > >> > "sympathiser" > > >> > of such violent actions of these groups. Binayak Sen and all other > > well > > >> > meaning individuals of naxalites also fall in this category,just as > a > > >> > praveen togadia or afjal guru and geelanis and theestas of the > nation. > > >> Let > > >> > the laws of the land take firm and definite action against law > > breakers, > > >> > whether in uniform or citizens of the nation, only rule of laws > which > > if > > >> > impartial, non partisan, without fear or favour acts on the deviants > > in > > >> the > > >> > society, the democracy will floursh, dissent without violent action > to > > >> > express dissent is acceptable, but dissent in the form of violence > is > > >> not > > >> > acceptable in civil society. > > >> > > > >> > Regards, > > >> > > > >> > Rajen. > > >> > On Tue, Jun 23, 2009 at 11:14 PM, subhrodip sengupta < > > >> > sub_sengupta at yahoo.co.in> > wrote: > > >> > > > >> > > Maoist spokesman detained in Kolkata for questioning. Finally to > > >> threaten > > >> > > these people you yeild the rod in central Kolkata. Nothing new, > they > > >> had > > >> > > always been. Now specially when govt gets itchy over NAxalite's > > >> strategy, > > >> > > what aft But detaining spokespersons or message bearers is against > > >> > > politics.. Naah these guys wanna rub out the traits of Maoism from > > all > > >> > books > > >> > > in India, something in which the Khilji's failed. Bad luck, Mr. > > >> > Chakravorty, > > >> > > you are in the police net. As for Central Kol., it has always > > >> woitnessed > > >> > > police attrocities for the last decade. Off course there might be > > some > > >> > bomb, > > >> > > etc. but isnt this guy a herald. A few women were similarly held > in > > >> Delhi > > >> > > recently on same allegations without substantial proof as if thus > > the > > >> > > ideology can be erased and the system and the ranks rationalised. > > This > > >> > came > > >> > > hopefully as a reaction to a pro-people's assembly where some > noted > > >> > > activist threated to arrange a Dharna before writers and > BUddhadev's > > >> > office, > > >> > > with > > >> > > off course many Maoists, if CPI(ML) was banned. The ideology is > > >> clearly > > >> > > more dangerous and revolutionary than the army! Messing up things > > will > > >> > > definitely not help, Mr. Bhattacharya! LAlgarh lives on, as a > > >> revolution. > > >> > > Does First War of Independance( Ok revolt of 1857 exist?) > > >> > > > > >> > > > > >> > > Love Cricket? Check out live scores, photos, video highlights > > and > > >> > > more. Click here http://cricket.yahoo.com > > >> > > _________________________________________ > > >> > > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > > >> > > Critiques & Collaborations > > >> > > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.netwith > > >> > > subscribe in the subject header. > > >> > > To unsubscribe: > https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > > >> > > List archive: > > >> > > > >> > > > >> > > > >> > > > >> > -- > > >> > Rajen. > > >> > _________________________________________ > > >> > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > > >> > Critiques & Collaborations > > >> > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.netwith > > >> > subscribe in the subject header. > > >> > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > > >> > > >> > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> > > >> _________________________________________ > > >> reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > > >> Critiques & Collaborations > > >> To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.netwith > > >> subscribe in the subject header. > > >> To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > > >> > > >> List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > -- > > > Rajen. > > > > > > > > _________________________________________ > > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > > Critiques & Collaborations > > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.netwith > > subscribe in the subject header. > > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> > > > > > > -- > Rajen. > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.netwith subscribe in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> > > > -- Rajen. From rakesh.rnbdj at gmail.com Thu Jun 25 17:37:51 2009 From: rakesh.rnbdj at gmail.com (Rakesh Iyer) Date: Thu, 25 Jun 2009 17:37:51 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] [Lalgarh Does not Exist] In-Reply-To: <704465.18901.qm@web57205.mail.re3.yahoo.com> References: <704465.18901.qm@web57205.mail.re3.yahoo.com> Message-ID: Dear Kshamendra and Rajen ji I address both of you, though in separate sections. Hope you both don't mind. I have a small point to make. When you say that religious extremism is different from Maoism or Naxalism, then I think this may not be completely true. It is true that the agenda of the Al-Qaeda and their affiliates is to establish Islam as the rule of law across the world, but the people who join these organizations may not necessarily believe in it. Most of the people who join this, even if police versions of investigations are accepted, are joining them because Muslims are suffering. The same causes are found to be stated by those caught as those stated by the Maoists : discrimination, injustice, discontent. The argument that Muslim ghettoes in cities are yet to develop, they are targetted during communal riots first by the rioteers and then by the police, and also after any terror attack; that their educational and employment status is very bad as the Sachar Committee Report says, and that they are discriminated on the basis of religion, is something pointed out to be the reason for their attack. And in particular, the argument that their women are targetted (as was the case in Gujarat riots) and their places of worship are destroyed, is something used to prove that they are not safe being the minority section in India. This in some sense is also the argument, in terms of injustice and discontent used by Hindutva extremists. And to some extent, on both sides, the arguments are true. Muslim appeasement indeed has taken place, which is why Muslims haven't managed to progress really in India. And both kinds of extremism seem to keep the Hindus and Muslims apart. Therefore, stating that one part of the problem is based on discontent and the other is not is not correct. What needs to be done is to abhor violence and act against those who act in this way. Just because Muslims are appeased, or because 58 Hindus are burnt in Godhra, doesn't give any Hindu the licence to rape a Muslim woman or burn Muslims alive. Similarly, just because post-Godhra violence hasn't gone to courts for justice, doesn't mean Muslims also join terrorist organizations of any kind to conduct blasts like 1993 and recent ones. And for you Mr. Rajen. A democratic system of governance is also based on faith, not the faith of religion of course, but faith in democratic ideals, faith in improvement in the life standards of people, faith in the fact that one may be the weakest in the system but his/her voice would still be heard and given due respect. And this is a perfectly rational thinking I believe. I don't feel faith causes violence; religion can certainly do so. Therefore, it's religion one has to be careful of, not faith. Faith allows others to believe in what they do, and faith doesn't believe in proselytization unlike religion. Regards Rakesh From kshmendra2005 at yahoo.com Thu Jun 25 17:44:25 2009 From: kshmendra2005 at yahoo.com (Kshmendra Kaul) Date: Thu, 25 Jun 2009 05:14:25 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Reader-list] [Lalgarh Does not Exist] Message-ID: <756694.80780.qm@web57206.mail.re3.yahoo.com> Dear Rajen   I am confused.   You start off by admonishing me and seemingly disagreeing with me but go on to say exactly what I said. I really am confused.     Kshmendra   --- On Thu, 6/25/09, Rajendra Bhat Uppinangadi wrote: From: Rajendra Bhat Uppinangadi Subject: Re: [Reader-list] [Lalgarh Does not Exist] To: "Kshmendra Kaul" Cc: "anupam chakravartty" , "sarai list" Date: Thursday, June 25, 2009, 5:28 PM Dear Kshemendra,   this remedy suggested by you is like throwing the baby along with water bath as baby is crying for cold water in the bath. The attempt is to save the baby, throw the water which is cold and stale out. In democratic rule of governance any sort of faith has no place, even rational approach to  life also be misleading and is a faith of non-believer.!   Violence for redressal of injustice and seeking justice by violence is not acceptable , by anyone, for faith, for lack of it or for rational thoughts.The remedy is in addrssing the maladies and delays in the system, genuine efforts to rectify them, which is not a cure achievable like a miracle, it needs sustained efforts by all of us in society.Corruption and dogmas of faith can not survive unless all of us are positive in our approach to negate the violence to show dissent. Regards, Rajen. On Thu, Jun 25, 2009 at 5:16 PM, Kshmendra Kaul wrote: Dear Rajen   I think Anupam made a valid point which cannot be dismissed under generalisations.   If I underrstood correctly, Anupam also finds unacceptable any violence whether perpetrated in the name of  "naxals" or "hindu right" or "muslim fundamentalism" or "zionism" or "violent evangelism".   But Anupam would like "naxalism" and "maoism" to be looked at differently from the others mentioned. In this I agree with him.   If India is a Democracy and supposed to be a Secular one, then Divinations or self-arrogation of believed in Divinely-ordained-Rights cannot be acceptable. Religion by itself is based on irrationalities, or to use a kinder word "Belief". In the name of a Religion, words and acts that create divides or pronounce the superiority of one over the other cannot be acceptable. Violence in the name of Religion is an attempt to enforce the acceptance of such presumed superiority. Sorry Sir! Not acceptable.   Where Naxalism and Maoism differ is in their being based not on irrationalities but in 'dissatisfactions' provoked by being subjected to Discrimination; Exploitation; Unjust Treatment; Non-Availability of Justice: Non-Delivery of Justice.   The violence, excesses, depravations in the name of Religion can simply be done away with by doing away with Religions or as is more practical by doing away with the Recognition of Religions (by the State, while they may continue as private affairs). Doing either or at least the latter will not be a loss to humankind.   To do away with the violence, depravations, excesses in the name of "Naxalism" and "Maoism" we will need to do away with the "  Discrimination; Exploitation; Unjust Treatment; Non-Availability of Justice: Non-Delivery of Justice.". That will only make the world better.   I hope you can recognise the offered distinction between the two sets.   In any case, Anupam too does not find acceptable the violence in the name of "Naxalism", "Maoism" either.   Religious-Extremism needs to be supressed. Social-Extremism needs to be addressed with credible solutions.   Kshmendra   --- On Thu, 6/25/09, Rajendra Bhat Uppinangadi wrote: From: Rajendra Bhat Uppinangadi Subject: Re: [Reader-list] [Lalgarh Does not Exist] To: "anupam chakravartty" Cc: "sarai list" Date: Thursday, June 25, 2009, 1:18 PM Dear Anupam, it is not pertinent whether you cite millions or few hundreds, of the incidents of crime and violence, the issue is such criminals have to be taken care by rule of laws, no justification or excuse that it is "reaction" to action will suffice, is unjustifiable. With population of over one billion, the incidents of deviants have to be dealt firmly, according to laws, judicial system fine tunes to act quickly, as justice is not only to be delivered, but seen to be as delivered.Individuals or group of individuals becoming vigilantes or delivering justice vecause the system is slow is only compounding the issues in to bigger problems of law and order as the law keepers will be outnumbered by such mobs, and chaos will be the result in society fo all citizens.Justifying any type of violence is absolutely absurd, as it only encourages the individuals to form a critical mass of numbers of individuals to indulge in violence, extortion, rape and ilegal acts on other citizens. Regards, Rajen. On Wed, Jun 24, 2009 at 5:03 PM, anupam chakravartty wrote: > Dear Rajen, > > Sir i can cite millions of similar examples from the north east, who have > been killed selectively for the past 19 years from Assam, Manipur, > Nagaland. > You may not even find chargesheets for them. the only witness is a lone > wife, or a mother or a sister. you know people usually dont lie about > missing people and suffer the prying eyes of the society. At least we know > that Sadhvi Pragya is in a custody. What are your thought 1192 persons > including wife of one Satish Mishra burnt in the Godhra train carnage, who > is officially still missing in the police records. these are the seeds of > discontent that lawmakers are sowing -- the so called morally upright. i > have no sympathies for sadhvi or any one who is abetting or encouraging > these activities even in the case of naxals but i would be interested as to > find the root of all these discontentment. however, if i am asked to rank > naxals and hindu right or muslim fundamentalism or zionism or violent > evangelism, i would say naxals or maoists are more real and have a better > ideology than fundamentalists. at least in their aims, they are supposed > to be fighting for the cause of the downtrodden. my only cause of concern > is > the use of violent means to gather support and selective killing of the > feudal lord by the naxals. however, fundamentalism doesnt deserve a space > in > the democracy. never...never. it is evil to think that i am a hindu > that's why i should rule the land and be the law...its purely evil. > > thanks anupam > > On 6/24/09, Rajendra Bhat Uppinangadi > wrote: > > > > dear Anupam, > > > >    a citizen of the nation only becomes the politician , police officer > or > > law keeper and elite security personnel, Any one who breaks law has to be > > under  scanner of same rule of laws, democracy in practice is where > > irrespective of the status, faith or contents of the  purse of the > > individual, rule of laws prevails. But we see different yardsticks being > > used by our citizens on different occassions, just one example, a 28 year > > old lady is in custody of SIT in mumbai for months now, with > investigation > > not showing any progress or proof, but we talk of our concerns,worry > about > > some,  selectively, not about this lady, because she is labeled as > sadhvi.? > > What about human rights of this lady and eleven others who for the sake > of > > vote gains, division of votes were arrested by a ruthless fuedal leader > > using honest cop, Hemanth karkare.? > > > > On Wed, Jun 24, 2009 at 3:52 PM, anupam chakravartty >wrote: > > > >> dear rajen, > >> > >> you should have included the politicians, the police officials, CRPF > >> members > >> who take violent measures to quell violence. its ironical but true as > well > >> as in several places in andhra pradesh, manipur, kashmir. politicians > are > >> biggest sympathiser of such actions..they are equally responsible. > instead > >> of question why such violent forms of dissent are happening across the > >> nation, you are just discussing what forms of dissent should be > employed. > >> why there should be so much of strife? unless you dont understand and > >> express your thoughts about that talking merely about violence becomes > >> irrelevant. > >> > >> second, inclusion of binayak sen and teesta setalvad along with praveen > >> togadia makes your argument really weak here. because you seem to have > one > >> yardstick to measure everyone -- either you are with us ( the so-called > >> law > >> abiding citizens) or you are an enemy of the state. however problems in > >> this nation exist in particular as it is a diverse country. even several > >> state security agencies do not employ similar measures in tackling with > >> the issues in chattisgarh to quell naxalite movement, while keeping the > >> communal rioting at bay. so how are presenting binayak sen and praveen > >> togadia in the same pedestal. the word "sympathiser" has several > >> connotations. you can sympathise with the cause that a particular > movement > >> is raising but may not sympathise the means by which solutions to the > >> problem are being taken by these banned organisations. > >> > >> -thanks anupam > >> > >> On 6/24/09, Rajendra Bhat Uppinangadi > >> wrote: > >> > >> > Dear All, > >> > > >> >    any citizen, in his / her excercise of rights of freedom to > >> expression > >> > can express his/her views in democratic India, but taking laws into > >> their > >> > own hands as a way of demonstration of protest is not acceptable in > any > >> > society, as this violence not only hurts the innocents, but also > >> destroys > >> > the civil liberties of citizens and violence only begets more of it. > Be > >> it > >> > naxalites, maoists, fanatics of any faith, when they resort to violent > >> > means > >> > of addressing the issues that they percieve as wrong, it destroys the > >> > societal harmony, liberties of the citizens, worse, it ushers in > >> atrocities > >> > by the state machinery on every citizen under assumption that he/she > is > >> > "sympathiser" > >> > of such violent actions of these groups. Binayak Sen and all other > well > >> > meaning individuals  of naxalites also fall in this category,just as a > >> > praveen togadia or afjal guru and geelanis and theestas of the nation. > >> Let > >> > the laws of the land take firm and definite action against law > breakers, > >> > whether in uniform or citizens of the nation, only rule of laws which > if > >> > impartial, non partisan, without fear or favour acts on the deviants > in > >> the > >> > society, the democracy will floursh, dissent without violent action to > >> > express dissent is acceptable, but dissent in the form of violence is > >> not > >> > acceptable in civil society. > >> > > >> > Regards, > >> > > >> > Rajen. > >> > On Tue, Jun 23, 2009 at 11:14 PM, subhrodip sengupta < > >> > sub_sengupta at yahoo.co.in> wrote: > >> > > >> > > Maoist spokesman detained in Kolkata for questioning. Finally to > >> threaten > >> > > these people you yeild the rod in central Kolkata. Nothing new, they > >> had > >> > > always been. Now specially when govt gets itchy over NAxalite's > >> strategy, > >> > > what aft But detaining spokespersons or message bearers is against > >> > > politics.. Naah these guys wanna rub out the traits of Maoism from > all > >> > books > >> > > in India, something in which the Khilji's failed. Bad luck, Mr. > >> > Chakravorty, > >> > > you are in the police net. As for Central Kol., it has always > >> woitnessed > >> > > police attrocities for the last decade. Off course there might be > some > >> > bomb, > >> > > etc. but isnt this guy a herald. A few women were similarly held in > >> Delhi > >> > > recently on same allegations without substantial proof as if thus > the > >> > > ideology can be erased and the system and the ranks rationalised. > This > >> > came > >> > > hopefully as a reaction to a pro-people's assembly where some noted > >> > > activist threated to arrange a Dharna before writers and BUddhadev's > >> > office, > >> > > with > >> > >  off course many Maoists, if CPI(ML) was banned. The ideology is > >> clearly > >> > > more dangerous and revolutionary than the army! Messing up things > will > >> > > definitely not help, Mr. Bhattacharya! LAlgarh lives on, as a > >> revolution. > >> > > Does First War of Independance( Ok revolt of 1857 exist?) > >> > > > >> > > > >> > >      Love Cricket? Check out live scores, photos, video highlights > and > >> > > more. Click here http://cricket.yahoo.com > >> > > _________________________________________ > >> > > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > >> > > Critiques & Collaborations > >> > > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > >> > > subscribe in the subject header. > >> > > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > >> > > List archive: > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > -- > >> > Rajen. > >> > _________________________________________ > >> > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > >> > Critiques & Collaborations > >> > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > >> > subscribe in the subject header. > >> > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > >> > >> > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> > >> _________________________________________ > >> reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > >> Critiques & Collaborations > >> To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > >> subscribe in the subject header. > >> To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > >> > >> List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> > > > > > > > > > > -- > > Rajen. > > > > > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > subscribe in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> > -- Rajen. _________________________________________ reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. Critiques & Collaborations To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with subscribe in the subject header. To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> -- Rajen. From rakesh.rnbdj at gmail.com Thu Jun 25 18:01:45 2009 From: rakesh.rnbdj at gmail.com (Rakesh Iyer) Date: Thu, 25 Jun 2009 18:01:45 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] =?utf-8?b?4KSy4KS+4KSy4KSX4KSi4KS8OiDgpI/gpJUg4KSb?= =?utf-8?b?4KWL4KSf4KWHIOCksuCli+CkleCkpOCkguCkpOCljeCksCDgpJXgpL4g?= =?utf-8?b?4KSs4KSh4KWH4KS8IOCksuCli+CkleCkpOCkguCkpOCljeCksCDgpJU=?= =?utf-8?b?4KWHIOCksuCkv+Ckr+ClhyDgpJbgpKTgpLDgpL4=?= In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Dear all I hope you have read this. If what this says is true, we all must be ashamed to even call ourselves as human beings. And we must be ashamed if we support this action by the Indian state. This is highly atrocious and not what we expect. The central forces are not sent on a mission to rape women or kill people in the name of Maoism. Similarly, the people must be given the right to decide their issues, not police or central forces or the state. Don't tribals have a right to live? I would also like to know how come it happens that whenever an industrial project has to be put up, the houses of only the poor are to be demolished? Why not the houses of the rich to be demolished? Sometime back, the NDTV was running a campaign to save the beaches. The reality is that Pranab Roy, from the NDTV, is actually ruining beaches himself in Goa, by allowing trucks to deposit soil and other landfill waste around the beaches in violation of all rules, all for a studio to be built for NDTV. Instead of rioting between Hindus and Muslims, what is required is a concerted action against the corporates violating human rights and laws, the members of the state which collude with them and also our great national media, all of whom need to be taught a proper lesson for having played a role in destroying humanity. One more thing. Violence is borne out of a sense of hopelessness. Since we are responsible for driving our tribals and Dalits to the sense of hopelessness, it's our responsibility to pressurize the state to do something to stop this. Otherwise, Maoism won't stop, similarly as the threat of Tamil anger resurging back in Sri Lanka persists. Regards Rakesh From sub_sengupta at yahoo.co.in Fri Jun 26 01:25:29 2009 From: sub_sengupta at yahoo.co.in (subhrodip sengupta) Date: Fri, 26 Jun 2009 01:25:29 +0530 (IST) Subject: [Reader-list] [Lalgarh Does not Exist] In-Reply-To: <7271ec560906250458v464f5229v9b4709ecc6d66d89@mail.gmail.com> References: <704465.18901.qm@web57205.mail.re3.yahoo.com> <7271ec560906250458v464f5229v9b4709ecc6d66d89@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <262654.85450.qm@web94702.mail.in2.yahoo.com> Dear all, One remains unheard unless he makes some news. So what does he do? Wait and die, too weak to defend himself? POwerless to even arrange a bhook hartal before a house, lest his daughter bears the consequences of his act? Even the leaders accpeted commiting some kind of excesses. But the army never does. . . . .  . The debate continues. Did lalgarh die? Naah it got official and will live down generations as History in official records. And as far as rape and murder is concerned, no person should be deprived of honour absolutely, but 'no person.......... life' unless under self defence, for defence is the best Intervention. We read abut who were killed, not what they did, and the question one fails to answer is, double satndards one for a minority and other for a ruling party, why7 doesn't one point out to CPM controlled villages where countless attrocities are committed, but WE DO NOT KNOW about it, beacuse entry of media is not allowed and tapes are snatched!Bye the way, tribals are one source of cheap labour, darn cheap! Regards, Subhrodip. ________________________________ From: Rajendra Bhat Uppinangadi To: Kshmendra Kaul Cc: sarai list Sent: Thursday, 25 June, 2009 5:28:10 PM Subject: Re: [Reader-list] [Lalgarh Does not Exist] Dear Kshemendra,   this remedy suggested by you is like throwing the baby along with water bath as baby is crying for cold water in the bath. The attempt is to save the baby, throw the water which is cold and stale out. In democratic rule of governance any sort of faith has no place, even rational approach to  life also be misleading and is a faith of non-believer.!   Violence for redressal of injustice and seeking justice by violence is not acceptable , by anyone, for faith, for lack of it or for rational thoughts.The remedy is in addrssing the maladies and delays in the system, genuine efforts to rectify them, which is not a cure achievable like a miracle, it needs sustained efforts by all of us in society.Corruption and dogmas of faith can not survive unless all of us are positive in our approach to negate the violence to show dissent. Regards, Rajen. On Thu, Jun 25, 2009 at 5:16 PM, Kshmendra Kaul wrote: > Dear Rajen > > I think Anupam made a valid point which cannot be dismissed under > generalisations. > > If I underrstood correctly, Anupam also finds unacceptable any violence > whether perpetrated in the name of  "naxals" or "hindu right" or "muslim > fundamentalism" or "zionism" or "violent evangelism". > > But Anupam would like "naxalism" and "maoism" to be looked at differently > from the others mentioned. In this I agree with him. > > If India is a Democracy and supposed to be a Secular one, then Divinations > or self-arrogation of believed in Divinely-ordained-Rights cannot be > acceptable. Religion by itself is based on irrationalities, or to use a > kinder word "Belief". In the name of a Religion, words and acts that create > divides or pronounce the superiority of one over the other cannot be > acceptable. Violence in the name of Religion is an attempt to enforce the > acceptance of such presumed superiority. Sorry Sir! Not acceptable. > > Where Naxalism and Maoism differ is in their being based not on > irrationalities but in 'dissatisfactions' provoked by being subjected to > Discrimination; Exploitation; Unjust Treatment; Non-Availability of Justice: > Non-Delivery of Justice. > > The violence, excesses, depravations in the name of Religion can simply be > done away with by doing away with Religions or as is more practical by doing > away with the Recognition of Religions (by the State, while they may > continue as private affairs). Doing either or at least the latter will not > be a loss to humankind. > > To do away with the violence, depravations, excesses in the name of > "Naxalism" and "Maoism" we will need to do away with the "  Discrimination; > Exploitation; Unjust Treatment; Non-Availability of Justice: Non-Delivery of > Justice.". That will only make the world better. > > I hope you can recognise the offered distinction between the two sets. > > In any case, Anupam too does not find acceptable the violence in the name > of "Naxalism", "Maoism" either. > > Religious-Extremism needs to be supressed. Social-Extremism needs to be > addressed with credible solutions. > > Kshmendra > > > --- On *Thu, 6/25/09, Rajendra Bhat Uppinangadi < > rajen786uppinangady at gmail.com>* wrote: > > > From: Rajendra Bhat Uppinangadi > Subject: Re: [Reader-list] [Lalgarh Does not Exist] > To: "anupam chakravartty" > Cc: "sarai list" > Date: Thursday, June 25, 2009, 1:18 PM > > > Dear Anupam, > > it is not pertinent whether you cite millions or few hundreds, of the > incidents of crime and violence, the issue is such criminals have to be > taken care by rule of laws, no justification or excuse that it is > "reaction" > to action will suffice, is unjustifiable. > > With population of over one billion, the incidents of deviants have to be > dealt firmly, according to laws, judicial system fine tunes to act quickly, > as justice is not only to be delivered, but seen to be as > delivered.Individuals or group of individuals becoming vigilantes or > delivering justice vecause the system is slow is only compounding the > issues > in to bigger problems of law and order as the law keepers will be > outnumbered by such mobs, and chaos will be the result in society fo all > citizens.Justifying any type of violence is absolutely absurd, as it only > encourages the individuals to form a critical mass of numbers of > individuals > to indulge in violence, extortion, rape and ilegal acts on other citizens. > > Regards, > > Rajen. > > On Wed, Jun 24, 2009 at 5:03 PM, anupam chakravartty > >wrote: > > > Dear Rajen, > > > > Sir i can cite millions of similar examples from the north east, who have > > been killed selectively for the past 19 years from Assam, Manipur, > > Nagaland. > > You may not even find chargesheets for them. the only witness is a lone > > wife, or a mother or a sister. you know people usually dont lie about > > missing people and suffer the prying eyes of the society. At least we > know > > that Sadhvi Pragya is in a custody. What are your thought 1192 persons > > including wife of one Satish Mishra burnt in the Godhra train carnage, > who > > is officially still missing in the police records. these are the seeds of > > discontent that lawmakers are sowing -- the so called morally upright. i > > have no sympathies for sadhvi or any one who is abetting or encouraging > > these activities even in the case of naxals but i would be interested as > to > > find the root of all these discontentment. however, if i am asked to rank > > naxals and hindu right or muslim fundamentalism or zionism or violent > > evangelism, i would say naxals or maoists are more real and have a better > > ideology than fundamentalists. at least in their aims, they are supposed > > to be fighting for the cause of the downtrodden. my only cause of concern > > is > > the use of violent means to gather support and selective killing of the > > feudal lord by the naxals. however, fundamentalism doesnt deserve a space > > in > > the democracy. never...never. it is evil to think that i am a hindu > > that's why i should rule the land and be the law...its purely evil. > > > > thanks anupam > > > > On 6/24/09, Rajendra Bhat Uppinangadi > > > > wrote: > > > > > > dear Anupam, > > > > > >    a citizen of the nation only becomes the politician , police officer > > or > > > law keeper and elite security personnel, Any one who breaks law has to > be > > > under  scanner of same rule of laws, democracy in practice is where > > > irrespective of the status, faith or contents of the  purse of the > > > individual, rule of laws prevails. But we see different yardsticks > being > > > used by our citizens on different occassions, just one example, a 28 > year > > > old lady is in custody of SIT in mumbai for months now, with > > investigation > > > not showing any progress or proof, but we talk of our concerns,worry > > about > > > some,  selectively, not about this lady, because she is labeled as > > sadhvi.? > > > What about human rights of this lady and eleven others who for the sake > > of > > > vote gains, division of votes were arrested by a ruthless fuedal leader > > > using honest cop, Hemanth karkare.? > > > > > > On Wed, Jun 24, 2009 at 3:52 PM, anupam chakravartty < > c.anupam at gmail.com > > >wrote: > > > > > >> dear rajen, > > >> > > >> you should have included the politicians, the police officials, CRPF > > >> members > > >> who take violent measures to quell violence. its ironical but true as > > well > > >> as in several places in andhra pradesh, manipur, kashmir. politicians > > are > > >> biggest sympathiser of such actions..they are equally responsible. > > instead > > >> of question why such violent forms of dissent are happening across the > > >> nation, you are just discussing what forms of dissent should be > > employed. > > >> why there should be so much of strife? unless you dont understand and > > >> express your thoughts about that talking merely about violence becomes > > >> irrelevant. > > >> > > >> second, inclusion of binayak sen and teesta setalvad along with > praveen > > >> togadia makes your argument really weak here. because you seem to have > > one > > >> yardstick to measure everyone -- either you are with us ( the > so-called > > >> law > > >> abiding citizens) or you are an enemy of the state. however problems > in > > >> this nation exist in particular as it is a diverse country. even > several > > >> state security agencies do not employ similar measures in tackling > with > > >> the issues in chattisgarh to quell naxalite movement, while keeping > the > > >> communal rioting at bay. so how are presenting binayak sen and praveen > > >> togadia in the same pedestal. the word "sympathiser" has several > > >> connotations. you can sympathise with the cause that a particular > > movement > > >> is raising but may not sympathise the means by which solutions to the > > >> problem are being taken by these banned organisations. > > >> > > >> -thanks anupam > > >> > > >> On 6/24/09, Rajendra Bhat Uppinangadi > > > > >> wrote: > > >> > > >> > Dear All, > > >> > > > >> >    any citizen, in his / her excercise of rights of freedom to > > >> expression > > >> > can express his/her views in democratic India, but taking laws into > > >> their > > >> > own hands as a way of demonstration of protest is not acceptable in > > any > > >> > society, as this violence not only hurts the innocents, but also > > >> destroys > > >> > the civil liberties of citizens and violence only begets more of it. > > Be > > >> it > > >> > naxalites, maoists, fanatics of any faith, when they resort to > violent > > >> > means > > >> > of addressing the issues that they percieve as wrong, it destroys > the > > >> > societal harmony, liberties of the citizens, worse, it ushers in > > >> atrocities > > >> > by the state machinery on every citizen under assumption that he/she > > is > > >> > "sympathiser" > > >> > of such violent actions of these groups. Binayak Sen and all other > > well > > >> > meaning individuals  of naxalites also fall in this category,just as > a > > >> > praveen togadia or afjal guru and geelanis and theestas of the > nation. > > >> Let > > >> > the laws of the land take firm and definite action against law > > breakers, > > >> > whether in uniform or citizens of the nation, only rule of laws > which > > if > > >> > impartial, non partisan, without fear or favour acts on the deviants > > in > > >> the > > >> > society, the democracy will floursh, dissent without violent action > to > > >> > express dissent is acceptable, but dissent in the form of violence > is > > >> not > > >> > acceptable in civil society. > > >> > > > >> > Regards, > > >> > > > >> > Rajen.. > > >> > On Tue, Jun 23, 2009 at 11:14 PM, subhrodip sengupta < > > >> > sub_sengupta at yahoo.co.in> > wrote: > > >> > > > >> > > Maoist spokesman detained in Kolkata for questioning. Finally to > > >> threaten > > >> > > these people you yeild the rod in central Kolkata. Nothing new, > they > > >> had > > >> > > always been. Now specially when govt gets itchy over NAxalite's > > >> strategy, > > >> > > what aft But detaining spokespersons or message bearers is against > > >> > > politics.. Naah these guys wanna rub out the traits of Maoism from > > all > > >> > books > > >> > > in India, something in which the Khilji's failed. Bad luck, Mr. > > >> > Chakravorty, > > >> > > you are in the police net. As for Central Kol., it has always > > >> woitnessed > > >> > > police attrocities for the last decade. Off course there might be > > some > > >> > bomb, > > >> > > etc. but isnt this guy a herald. A few women were similarly held > in > > >> Delhi > > >> > > recently on same allegations without substantial proof as if thus > > the > > >> > > ideology can be erased and the system and the ranks rationalised. > > This > > >> > came > > >> > > hopefully as a reaction to a pro-people's assembly where some > noted > > >> > > activist threated to arrange a Dharna before writers and > BUddhadev's > > >> > office, > > >> > > with > > >> > >  off course many Maoists, if CPI(ML) was banned. The ideology is > > >> clearly > > >> > > more dangerous and revolutionary than the army! Messing up things > > will > > >> > > definitely not help, Mr. Bhattacharya! LAlgarh lives on, as a > > >> revolution. > > >> > > Does First War of Independance( Ok revolt of 1857 exist?) > > >> > > > > >> > > > > >> > >      Love Cricket? Check out live scores, photos, video highlights > > and > > >> > > more. Click here http://cricket.yahoo.com > > >> > > _________________________________________ > > >> > > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > > >> > > Critiques & Collaborations > > >> > > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.netwith > > >> > > subscribe in the subject header. > > >> > > To unsubscribe: > https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > > >> > > List archive: > > >> > > > >> > > > >> > > > >> > > > >> > -- > > >> > Rajen.. > > >> > _________________________________________ > > >> > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > > >> > Critiques & Collaborations > > >> > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.netwith > > >> > subscribe in the subject header. > > >> > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > > >> > > >> > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> > > >> _________________________________________ > > >> reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > > >> Critiques & Collaborations > > >> To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.netwith > > >> subscribe in the subject header. > > >> To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > > >> > > >> List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > -- > > > Rajen. > > > > > > > > _________________________________________ > > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > > Critiques & Collaborations > > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.netwith > > subscribe in the subject header. > > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> > > > > > > -- > Rajen. > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.netwith subscribe in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> > > > -- Rajen. _________________________________________ reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. Critiques & Collaborations To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with subscribe in the subject header. To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> ICC World Twenty20 England '09 exclusively on YAHOO! CRICKET http://cricket.yahoo.com From rahulpandita at yahoo.com Fri Jun 26 11:52:32 2009 From: rahulpandita at yahoo.com (Rahul Pandita) Date: Thu, 25 Jun 2009 23:22:32 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Reader-list] Once upon a place: Dispatches from Lalgarh Message-ID: <85048.84543.qm@web30603.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Once upon a place: Dispatches from Lalgarh http://sanitysucks.blogspot.com/2009/06/once-upon-place.html Rahul Pandita www.sanitysucks.blogspot.com Mobile: 9818088664 From rajen786uppinangady at gmail.com Fri Jun 26 13:35:34 2009 From: rajen786uppinangady at gmail.com (Rajendra Bhat Uppinangadi) Date: Fri, 26 Jun 2009 13:35:34 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] =?utf-8?b?4KSy4KS+4KSy4KSX4KSi4KS8OiDgpI/gpJUg4KSb?= =?utf-8?b?4KWL4KSf4KWHIOCksuCli+CkleCkpOCkguCkpOCljeCksCDgpJXgpL4g?= =?utf-8?b?4KSs4KSh4KWH4KS8IOCksuCli+CkleCkpOCkguCkpOCljeCksCDgpJU=?= =?utf-8?b?4KWHIOCksuCkv+Ckr+ClhyDgpJbgpKTgpLDgpL4=?= In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <7271ec560906260105q6be8f325k85a4830783560761@mail.gmail.com> Dear all, one of the common tricks of pro groups who oppose law enforcing agencies and their presence for upholding laws of the constitutionally formed nation state is to propagate the falsehoods of atrocities gainst such law keeping forces. During the riots, fanatics of one faith propagate that police is partial, in another state, where the minority is majority, like a Shopian, the officers who raped were of their own faith, but protest was selective, blaming the CRPF, later found to be misdemenour of police and district health officers.! Maoists encash the bad governance and the brutal colonial overhang of the police, states use the power to inflict miseries, but use of violence always gets more violence, whether by state or by any movement for better governance. On 6/25/09, Rakesh Iyer wrote: > Dear all > > I hope you have read this. If what this says is true, we all must be ashamed > to even call ourselves as human beings. And we must be ashamed if we support > this action by the Indian state. This is highly atrocious and not what we > expect. The central forces are not sent on a mission to rape women or kill > people in the name of Maoism. Similarly, the people must be given the right > to decide their issues, not police or central forces or the state. Don't > tribals have a right to live? > > I would also like to know how come it happens that whenever an industrial > project has to be put up, the houses of only the poor are to be demolished? > Why not the houses of the rich to be demolished? Sometime back, the NDTV was > running a campaign to save the beaches. The reality is that Pranab Roy, from > the NDTV, is actually ruining beaches himself in Goa, by allowing trucks to > deposit soil and other landfill waste around the beaches in violation of all > rules, all for a studio to be built for NDTV. > > Instead of rioting between Hindus and Muslims, what is required is a > concerted action against the corporates violating human rights and laws, the > members of the state which collude with them and also our great national > media, all of whom need to be taught a proper lesson for having played a > role in destroying humanity. > > One more thing. Violence is borne out of a sense of hopelessness. Since we > are responsible for driving our tribals and Dalits to the sense of > hopelessness, it's our responsibility to pressurize the state to do > something to stop this. Otherwise, Maoism won't stop, similarly as the > threat of Tamil anger resurging back in Sri Lanka persists. > > Regards > > Rakesh > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with subscribe > in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> -- Rajen. From rajen786uppinangady at gmail.com Fri Jun 26 14:08:29 2009 From: rajen786uppinangady at gmail.com (Rajendra Bhat Uppinangadi) Date: Fri, 26 Jun 2009 14:08:29 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] [Lalgarh Does not Exist] In-Reply-To: <756694.80780.qm@web57206.mail.re3.yahoo.com> References: <756694.80780.qm@web57206.mail.re3.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <7271ec560906260138m26325750m5339c30fbdef486f@mail.gmail.com> Dear Kshemendra, the confusion is a word, where the rational thoughts get seggregated by sorting the objective and subjective matters of the thought, once completed, clear thoughts will emerge. As to Rakesh, jee, I can only say, it is nor faith but trust in the system, the word faith has to be replaced with trust in the post of yours, ten it clears confusion of thoughts.? Regards, Rajen. On 6/25/09, Kshmendra Kaul wrote: > Dear Rajen > > I am confused. > > You start off by admonishing me and seemingly disagreeing with me but go on > to say exactly what I said. I really am confused. > > > Kshmendra > > > > --- On Thu, 6/25/09, Rajendra Bhat Uppinangadi > wrote: > > > From: Rajendra Bhat Uppinangadi > Subject: Re: [Reader-list] [Lalgarh Does not Exist] > To: "Kshmendra Kaul" > Cc: "anupam chakravartty" , "sarai list" > > Date: Thursday, June 25, 2009, 5:28 PM > > > > Dear Kshemendra, > > this remedy suggested by you is like throwing the baby along with water > bath as baby is crying for cold water in the bath. The attempt is to save > the baby, throw the water which is cold and stale out. In democratic rule of > governance any sort of faith has no place, even rational approach to life > also be misleading and is a faith of non-believer.! > > Violence for redressal of injustice and seeking justice by violence is not > acceptable , by anyone, for faith, for lack of it or for rational > thoughts.The remedy is in addrssing the maladies and delays in the system, > genuine efforts to rectify them, which is not a cure achievable like a > miracle, it needs sustained efforts by all of us in society.Corruption and > dogmas of faith can not survive unless all of us are positive in our > approach to negate the violence to show dissent. > > Regards, > Rajen. > > > On Thu, Jun 25, 2009 at 5:16 PM, Kshmendra Kaul > wrote: > > > > > > > Dear Rajen > > I think Anupam made a valid point which cannot be dismissed under > generalisations. > > If I underrstood correctly, Anupam also finds unacceptable any violence > whether perpetrated in the name of "naxals" or "hindu right" or "muslim > fundamentalism" or "zionism" or "violent evangelism". > > But Anupam would like "naxalism" and "maoism" to be looked at differently > from the others mentioned. In this I agree with him. > > If India is a Democracy and supposed to be a Secular one, then Divinations > or self-arrogation of believed in Divinely-ordained-Rights cannot be > acceptable. Religion by itself is based on irrationalities, or to use a > kinder word "Belief". In the name of a Religion, words and acts that create > divides or pronounce the superiority of one over the other cannot be > acceptable. Violence in the name of Religion is an attempt to enforce the > acceptance of such presumed superiority. Sorry Sir! Not acceptable. > > Where Naxalism and Maoism differ is in their being based not on > irrationalities but in 'dissatisfactions' provoked by being subjected to > Discrimination; Exploitation; Unjust Treatment; Non-Availability of Justice: > Non-Delivery of Justice. > > The violence, excesses, depravations in the name of Religion can simply be > done away with by doing away with Religions or as is more practical by doing > away with the Recognition of Religions (by the State, while they may > continue as private affairs). Doing either or at least the latter will not > be a loss to humankind. > > To do away with the violence, depravations, excesses in the name of > "Naxalism" and "Maoism" we will need to do away with the " Discrimination; > Exploitation; Unjust Treatment; Non-Availability of Justice: Non-Delivery of > Justice.". That will only make the world better. > > I hope you can recognise the offered distinction between the two sets. > > In any case, Anupam too does not find acceptable the violence in the name of > "Naxalism", "Maoism" either. > > Religious-Extremism needs to be supressed. Social-Extremism needs to be > addressed with credible solutions. > > Kshmendra > > > --- On Thu, 6/25/09, Rajendra Bhat Uppinangadi > wrote: > > > From: Rajendra Bhat Uppinangadi > > Subject: Re: [Reader-list] [Lalgarh Does not Exist] > To: "anupam chakravartty" > Cc: "sarai list" > Date: Thursday, June 25, 2009, 1:18 PM > > > > > > Dear Anupam, > > it is not pertinent whether you cite millions or few hundreds, of the > incidents of crime and violence, the issue is such criminals have to be > taken care by rule of laws, no justification or excuse that it is "reaction" > to action will suffice, is unjustifiable. > > With population of over one billion, the incidents of deviants have to be > dealt firmly, according to laws, judicial system fine tunes to act quickly, > as justice is not only to be delivered, but seen to be as > delivered.Individuals or group of individuals becoming vigilantes or > delivering justice vecause the system is slow is only compounding the issues > in to bigger problems of law and order as the law keepers will be > outnumbered by such mobs, and chaos will be the result in society fo all > citizens.Justifying any type of violence is absolutely absurd, as it only > encourages the individuals to form a critical mass of numbers of individuals > to indulge in violence, extortion, rape and ilegal acts on other citizens. > > Regards, > > Rajen. > > On Wed, Jun 24, 2009 at 5:03 PM, anupam chakravartty > wrote: > >> Dear Rajen, >> >> Sir i can cite millions of similar examples from the north east, who have >> been killed selectively for the past 19 years from Assam, Manipur, >> Nagaland. >> You may not even find chargesheets for them. the only witness is a lone >> wife, or a mother or a sister. you know people usually dont lie about >> missing people and suffer the prying eyes of the society. At least we know >> that Sadhvi Pragya is in a custody. What are your thought 1192 persons >> including wife of one Satish Mishra burnt in the Godhra train carnage, who >> is officially still missing in the police records. these are the seeds of >> discontent that lawmakers are sowing -- the so called morally upright. i >> have no sympathies for sadhvi or any one who is abetting or encouraging >> these activities even in the case of naxals but i would be interested as >> to >> find the root of all these discontentment. however, if i am asked to rank >> naxals and hindu right or muslim fundamentalism or zionism or violent >> evangelism, i would say naxals or maoists are more real and have a better >> ideology than fundamentalists. at least in their aims, they are supposed >> to be fighting for the cause of the downtrodden. my only cause of concern >> is >> the use of violent means to gather support and selective killing of the >> feudal lord by the naxals. however, fundamentalism doesnt deserve a space >> in >> the democracy. never...never. it is evil to think that i am a hindu >> that's why i should rule the land and be the law...its purely evil. >> >> thanks anupam >> >> On 6/24/09, Rajendra Bhat Uppinangadi >> wrote: >> > >> > dear Anupam, >> > >> > a citizen of the nation only becomes the politician , police officer >> or >> > law keeper and elite security personnel, Any one who breaks law has to >> > be >> > under scanner of same rule of laws, democracy in practice is where >> > irrespective of the status, faith or contents of the purse of the >> > individual, rule of laws prevails. But we see different yardsticks being >> > used by our citizens on different occassions, just one example, a 28 >> > year >> > old lady is in custody of SIT in mumbai for months now, with >> investigation >> > not showing any progress or proof, but we talk of our concerns,worry >> about >> > some, selectively, not about this lady, because she is labeled as >> sadhvi.? >> > What about human rights of this lady and eleven others who for the sake >> of >> > vote gains, division of votes were arrested by a ruthless fuedal leader >> > using honest cop, Hemanth karkare.? >> > >> > On Wed, Jun 24, 2009 at 3:52 PM, anupam chakravartty > >wrote: >> > >> >> dear rajen, >> >> >> >> you should have included the politicians, the police officials, CRPF >> >> members >> >> who take violent measures to quell violence. its ironical but true as >> well >> >> as in several places in andhra pradesh, manipur, kashmir. politicians >> are >> >> biggest sympathiser of such actions..they are equally responsible. >> instead >> >> of question why such violent forms of dissent are happening across the >> >> nation, you are just discussing what forms of dissent should be >> employed. >> >> why there should be so much of strife? unless you dont understand and >> >> express your thoughts about that talking merely about violence becomes >> >> irrelevant. >> >> >> >> second, inclusion of binayak sen and teesta setalvad along with praveen >> >> togadia makes your argument really weak here. because you seem to have >> one >> >> yardstick to measure everyone -- either you are with us ( the so-called >> >> law >> >> abiding citizens) or you are an enemy of the state. however problems in >> >> this nation exist in particular as it is a diverse country. even >> >> several >> >> state security agencies do not employ similar measures in tackling with >> >> the issues in chattisgarh to quell naxalite movement, while keeping the >> >> communal rioting at bay. so how are presenting binayak sen and praveen >> >> togadia in the same pedestal. the word "sympathiser" has several >> >> connotations. you can sympathise with the cause that a particular >> movement >> >> is raising but may not sympathise the means by which solutions to the >> >> problem are being taken by these banned organisations. >> >> >> >> -thanks anupam >> >> >> >> On 6/24/09, Rajendra Bhat Uppinangadi >> >> wrote: >> >> >> >> > Dear All, >> >> > >> >> > any citizen, in his / her excercise of rights of freedom to >> >> expression >> >> > can express his/her views in democratic India, but taking laws into >> >> their >> >> > own hands as a way of demonstration of protest is not acceptable in >> any >> >> > society, as this violence not only hurts the innocents, but also >> >> destroys >> >> > the civil liberties of citizens and violence only begets more of it. >> Be >> >> it >> >> > naxalites, maoists, fanatics of any faith, when they resort to >> >> > violent >> >> > means >> >> > of addressing the issues that they percieve as wrong, it destroys the >> >> > societal harmony, liberties of the citizens, worse, it ushers in >> >> atrocities >> >> > by the state machinery on every citizen under assumption that he/she >> is >> >> > "sympathiser" >> >> > of such violent actions of these groups. Binayak Sen and all other >> well >> >> > meaning individuals of naxalites also fall in this category,just as >> >> > a >> >> > praveen togadia or afjal guru and geelanis and theestas of the >> >> > nation. >> >> Let >> >> > the laws of the land take firm and definite action against law >> breakers, >> >> > whether in uniform or citizens of the nation, only rule of laws which >> if >> >> > impartial, non partisan, without fear or favour acts on the deviants >> in >> >> the >> >> > society, the democracy will floursh, dissent without violent action >> >> > to >> >> > express dissent is acceptable, but dissent in the form of violence is >> >> not >> >> > acceptable in civil society. >> >> > >> >> > Regards, >> >> > >> >> > Rajen. >> >> > On Tue, Jun 23, 2009 at 11:14 PM, subhrodip sengupta < >> >> > sub_sengupta at yahoo.co.in> wrote: >> >> > >> >> > > Maoist spokesman detained in Kolkata for questioning. Finally to >> >> threaten >> >> > > these people you yeild the rod in central Kolkata. Nothing new, >> >> > > they >> >> had >> >> > > always been. Now specially when govt gets itchy over NAxalite's >> >> strategy, >> >> > > what aft But detaining spokespersons or message bearers is against >> >> > > politics.. Naah these guys wanna rub out the traits of Maoism from >> all >> >> > books >> >> > > in India, something in which the Khilji's failed. Bad luck, Mr. >> >> > Chakravorty, >> >> > > you are in the police net. As for Central Kol., it has always >> >> woitnessed >> >> > > police attrocities for the last decade. Off course there might be >> some >> >> > bomb, >> >> > > etc. but isnt this guy a herald. A few women were similarly held in >> >> Delhi >> >> > > recently on same allegations without substantial proof as if thus >> the >> >> > > ideology can be erased and the system and the ranks rationalised. >> This >> >> > came >> >> > > hopefully as a reaction to a pro-people's assembly where some noted >> >> > > activist threated to arrange a Dharna before writers and >> >> > > BUddhadev's >> >> > office, >> >> > > with >> >> > > off course many Maoists, if CPI(ML) was banned. The ideology is >> >> clearly >> >> > > more dangerous and revolutionary than the army! Messing up things >> will >> >> > > definitely not help, Mr. Bhattacharya! LAlgarh lives on, as a >> >> revolution. >> >> > > Does First War of Independance( Ok revolt of 1857 exist?) >> >> > > >> >> > > >> >> > > Love Cricket? Check out live scores, photos, video highlights >> and >> >> > > more. Click here http://cricket.yahoo.com >> >> > > _________________________________________ >> >> > > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. >> >> > > Critiques & Collaborations >> >> > > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with >> >> > > subscribe in the subject header. >> >> > > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list >> >> > > List archive: >> >> > >> >> > >> >> > >> >> > >> >> > -- >> >> > Rajen. >> >> > _________________________________________ >> >> > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. >> >> > Critiques & Collaborations >> >> > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with >> >> > subscribe in the subject header. >> >> > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list >> >> >> >> > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> >> >> _________________________________________ >> >> reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. >> >> Critiques & Collaborations >> >> To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with >> >> subscribe in the subject header. >> >> To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list >> >> >> >> List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > -- >> > Rajen. >> > >> > >> _________________________________________ >> reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. >> Critiques & Collaborations >> To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with >> subscribe in the subject header. >> To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list >> List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> >> > > > > -- > Rajen. > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with subscribe > in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> > > > > -- > Rajen. > > > > -- Rajen. From rakesh.rnbdj at gmail.com Fri Jun 26 14:13:11 2009 From: rakesh.rnbdj at gmail.com (Rakesh Iyer) Date: Fri, 26 Jun 2009 14:13:11 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] [Lalgarh Does not Exist] In-Reply-To: <7271ec560906260138m26325750m5339c30fbdef486f@mail.gmail.com> References: <756694.80780.qm@web57206.mail.re3.yahoo.com> <7271ec560906260138m26325750m5339c30fbdef486f@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: Dear Rajen jee I don't want to indulge in arguments on English grammar and meanings. My vocabulary may not be great, but according to me, trust comes when you have faith in something. If you don't have faith in someone, why would you trust him/her? Also, in many cases, faith and trust I believe give the same meaning. Therefore, whether you call it faith or trust in this particular context you stated, hardly matters. After all, if you believe people have faith in God, they do trust God. Regards Rakesh From rajen786uppinangady at gmail.com Fri Jun 26 14:22:23 2009 From: rajen786uppinangady at gmail.com (Rajendra Bhat Uppinangadi) Date: Fri, 26 Jun 2009 14:22:23 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] [Lalgarh Does not Exist] In-Reply-To: References: <756694.80780.qm@web57206.mail.re3.yahoo.com> <7271ec560906260138m26325750m5339c30fbdef486f@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <7271ec560906260152sbf870f6ib5181d6b427273ff@mail.gmail.com> Rakesh jee, it is about system of governance where we have faith or trust.? Here in this context, the faith is not as much as trust, even trust has to be reaffirmed often when we system crumbling under the pride, prejudice, greed and desire to cling to power at any cost by those who are in power. Faith in God is different, as none of us have seen that entity, but might have felt the presence, like that of wind, air can not be seen, but presence felt, water can not be contained even in dams, but can see the power of water, fire can not be held by humans without tools, but all can feel the power of fire, that is what I mean about trust and faith, least interested in teaching any grammer or words to any one as we only exchange our thoughts, not debate for brownie points or rolling shields.! Regards, rajen. On 6/26/09, Rakesh Iyer wrote: > Dear Rajen jee > > I don't want to indulge in arguments on English grammar and meanings. My > vocabulary may not be great, but according to me, trust comes when you have > faith in something. If you don't have faith in someone, why would you trust > him/her? > > Also, in many cases, faith and trust I believe give the same meaning. > Therefore, whether you call it faith or trust in this particular context > you > stated, hardly matters. After all, if you believe people have faith in God, > they do trust God. > > Regards > > Rakesh > -- Rajen. From rakesh.rnbdj at gmail.com Fri Jun 26 14:31:41 2009 From: rakesh.rnbdj at gmail.com (Rakesh Iyer) Date: Fri, 26 Jun 2009 14:31:41 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] [Lalgarh Does not Exist] In-Reply-To: <7271ec560906260152sbf870f6ib5181d6b427273ff@mail.gmail.com> References: <756694.80780.qm@web57206.mail.re3.yahoo.com> <7271ec560906260138m26325750m5339c30fbdef486f@mail.gmail.com> <7271ec560906260152sbf870f6ib5181d6b427273ff@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: Dear Rajen jee Faith or trust in governance systems can be interchangeably used by and large, and it is not wrong to do so. Faith can be based on both rationalities and irrationalities, and so can be trust. Therefore, I do not agree with you on this point. But we can keep this difference. The larger point is that Lalgarh and Salwa Judum are classic manifestations of how not to fight Naxalism. Regards Rakesh From rakesh.rnbdj at gmail.com Fri Jun 26 14:32:40 2009 From: rakesh.rnbdj at gmail.com (Rakesh Iyer) Date: Fri, 26 Jun 2009 14:32:40 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] [Lalgarh Does not Exist] In-Reply-To: References: <756694.80780.qm@web57206.mail.re3.yahoo.com> <7271ec560906260138m26325750m5339c30fbdef486f@mail.gmail.com> <7271ec560906260152sbf870f6ib5181d6b427273ff@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: Dear Rajen I may be wrong in having used the word 'manifestation', so I wish to replace that by the word 'examples'. The statement should be read as: 'Lalgarh and Salwa Judum are classic examples of how not to fight Naxalism'. Regards Rakesh From chandni.parekh at gmail.com Fri Jun 26 14:36:20 2009 From: chandni.parekh at gmail.com (Chandni Parekh) Date: Fri, 26 Jun 2009 14:36:20 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] The Death of "Why?" Message-ID: The Death of "Why?": The Decline of Questioning and the Future of Democracy - A book by Andrea Batista Schlesinger Excerpts here: http://psychologynews.posterous.com/the-death-of-why From chintangirishmodi at gmail.com Fri Jun 26 22:31:27 2009 From: chintangirishmodi at gmail.com (Chintan) Date: Fri, 26 Jun 2009 22:31:27 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Call for Papers: Exploring the Margins - JNU, New Delhi -- Abstracts by July 15 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: ---------- Forwarded message ---------- From: Aswathy *History Association* *Centre for Historical Studies * *Jawaharlal Nehru University* *New Delhi* *Exploring the Margins* *27 – 29 August 2009* To explore the margins is to simultaneously open up the unexplored, the un-thought, the novel. It is to explore how the horizons and boundaries of history are defined. As such, it is an effort to move the discipline onto new themes, to chart out the topography of the discipline and ask why the map looks the way it does. After all, the creation of margins is a process of delineation of the centre. What effects does the pattern of marginalization have on the constitution of the discipline? What does the process of marginalization reveal about the politics of knowledge? Through the conference we hope to create a space where research at the ‘frontiers’ of the discipline can be shared. In a fairly typical double silencing, people who do not come under the gaze of the state, whose lives survive only in fragmentary traces from the past, also escape the attention of historians. This is as true of the nomadic and hill peoples on the outskirts of settled-agricultural zones as it is of women, lower castes and people with alternative sexualities. Exploring these and other marginalized histories is not merely filling out the historical record; it is also, inextricably, an act of resistance and breaking of silences. Where views *of* the margins might bring up new pictures, views *from *the margin could productively defamiliarize established visions of history. Political power studied not through courtly chronicles, but folk songs, for instance, could not only texture our sense of power but also give us a nuanced idea of the politics of representation that shape these chronicles. Exploring the margins could lay bare the seamier consequences of development, destabilizing histories that see an inexorable march of progress through canonical stages of ‘civilization’, the West providing the model of development to which all other histories must conform. Established periodizations often act as templates that mould historiography around the study of states or ‘modes of production,’ unconsciously guiding the historian’s gaze. Thus, entire regions and ways of life might slip off the historiographical landscape without much notice. But historiography has also created methodological canons. The Rankean archival study, for instance, remains the quintessential historiographical mode. Such an enterprise, pursued in unselfconscious mode aligns the historian’s voice with that of the state. The need to study the margin would necessitate an analysis of the silences of sources, a necessary preliminary to reading them ‘against the grain.’ But new kinds of sources could also be explored. Visual representations – buildings, paintings, calendars, posters, cartoons, photographs, films – have been marginal to historiographical practice in India thus far. In the conference we hope to explore the possibilities these might hold out for deepening our sense, among other things, of the workings of cultural production and political representation. Oral history is another methodological orientation that carries within it the possibility of providing striking counter-narratives and recovering marginal voices. What follows is a set of suggested themes that should not be taken as a comprehensive list. These themes are aimed at no particular period of Indian history – ancient, medieval or modern – and we hope to have papers representing all streams at the conference. *Sub-themes:* *I Rethinking Spaces* The metaphor of ‘margins,’ is at its core a spatial one. Exploration of this dimension holds a number of possibilities. Conventional histories of South Asia have been framed around certain regional ‘centres’. Modern boundaries of nation-states have been taken as given and as a result, the focus has been on the national histories, and regions enter history only in relation to the nation. Further, some regions – seen as politically or economically important or productive – are given greater emphasis. By viewing the region through the optic of the margin, we seek to bring greater attention to regions regarded as unimportant by historiography: for instance, the history of the northeastern part of India has been directed by a centripetal, nationalist pull, visible in the very term used for the region. One way of displacing such a pull is by integrating it with ecologies and economies to its east. An examination of the categories through which the northeast has been represented, such as the division of between hills and plains, castes and tribes might usefully illuminate the specificities of colonialism in its diverse spatial settings. Further, specialization could itself be a process of marginalization: a means, for instance in the village, to enunciate hierarchies and enact deprivations. Nevertheless, such spaces could also become staging points for resistances and the imagination of alternatives. Marginal spaces in the city, for instance, have been interestingly deployed in classic Bollywood films from the 1970s and 80s. Through this theme, we will attempt to explore spaces beyond the centre, liminal spaces in-between, and inner and outer frontiers. *II Economy of Margins: Agriculture, Trade, Industry and Labour* There has been a longstanding historiographical concern with looking at the ways in which economic development has operated for the poor and marginalized. However, this concern itself has set the parameters for how the economy and production are conceptualized. Fuller explorations necessitate re-conceptualization of agriculture, trade, work and work-places, and the categories through which labour has been understood. This entails a more nuanced understanding of how capital works differently in different locations, and how resistance too is accordingly shaped and expressed. Recent work has attempted to move beyond the space of farms and factories and the categories of peasants and workers in order to accord greater recognition to the multiple sites of work and production and the multiple identities of labour. For instance, the life of maritime labour aboard ships as lascars has come to the attention of the historians, going beyond definitions of work and labour bound by land. Another crucial site is that of the household for it stands at the critical interface of labour and gender. A study of household labour not only shifts focus to a new site of labour but also brings to attention the gendered nature of such a site. Similarly, there has been an attempt to integrate forests and farms, rivers and fisheries, peasants and tribes within the same conceptual field. Histories of fishers, peddlers, migrant labour – who had all been marginalized in earlier historiography – are now being written, and through this theme, we hope to foreground such histories. *III Representing the centre, constituting the margins: text, visuals, landscape* Margins are often brought into effect through representation. Representation, as we understand, is an act of power. By reading representations in a different way, we could understand what representations mean and do, how they are linked to and shaped by power and ideology. Our concern, then, is with the production of representations in contexts defined by macro-processes such as feudalism, colonialism and capitalism, and how they come to serve as sites of both power and contestation. These representations may be visual or textual, oral or architectural. ** *IV Resisting discourse* At the level of politics, for instance, the state seems to stand firmly at the centre of social experience. Its visions of order, its definitions of disorder and its vocal and archival disseminations of ideology are all mobilized to create the effect of power. However, the political as seen through the optic of the margin shifts focus to other structures of authority, working at times in tandem with the state and at other times against it, such as jati panchayats, even when it produces power. Since the 1980s, there has been a recognition of the discursive articulations of colonial power. Notwithstanding the new emphasis that this has brought to marginal expressions of resistance, it has tended to look at colonial power in a unitary fashion. Rethinking the margins from within, we propose to consider more carefully dissonances within colonial discourses of power, as recognition of the variety within these discourses. *V Memory, history and placing the margin* Memory, in a way, has been marginal to the writing of Indian history. This marginalization is a result of the binary posed between history, seen as the repository of authentic facts, and memory, being prone to subjective appropriations and therefore unstable. There is also a parallel binary: the textual, seen usually as the site of valid, fixed and objective knowledge, and the oral, the domain of subjectivity and ambiguity. Could we not, on the other hand, emphasize that all subjectivities are historically created and memory is a part of this very process of historical constitution? The way in which memory is constructed reveals how groups or individuals negotiate with certain historical or social processes. Memory is then seen as a contested site of self-fashioning and identity-making. For instance, work on the memory of refugees and their negotiation with a traumatic past in settings such as the partition draws attention to this engagement with memory in understanding the past. Similarly, historians have also explored the institutionalization of memory by the nation-state, and the memory of other groups that serve as a counter-point to a nationalist narrative of history. *VI Relocating the Self: Religion, Caste, Gender* Questions of religion, caste and gender have been at the focus of much historical work. However history writing very often continues to operate within homogenizing categories such as Hinduism or Islam, while religious beliefs and practices of sects and communities that fall outside these dominant forms appear unintelligible or insignificant. Castes too are often mapped onto communities in a way that homogenizes differences, suppressing the variety of ways in which different social groups live their particular lives, and form themselves around specific beliefs and practices. In exploring issues of gender, once again, we see the problem of operating through the optics of dominant structures, of discovering everywhere the inexorable operation of patriarchy. In recovering the history of women we cannot end up marginalizing them from history, denying them agency and voice. An exploration of this theme will help us rethink the history of religious sects, caste-based social protest, and issues around gender. ~ Those who wish to contribute papers at the conference should send detailed, 1000-word abstracts by 15 July 2009. Participants selected after the process of review will have to send in the complete paper definitely by 10 August 2009. Each participant at the conference will be given 20 minutes to present his/her paper, and the discussion of each session will be led by a discussant. Participants will be provided accommodation for four nights (26 – 29 August 2009), as well as three-tier AC train fare. Please address all correspondence to: *exploringthemargins at gmail.com* From phadkeshilpa at gmail.com Fri Jun 26 22:49:22 2009 From: phadkeshilpa at gmail.com (Shilpa Phadke) Date: Fri, 26 Jun 2009 22:49:22 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Fwd: CMCS Fellowship for Early Career Film Makers In-Reply-To: References: <4A44F668.20701@gmail.com> Message-ID: Apologies for cross posting: please forward to your lists and to interested friends The Centre for Media and Cultural Studies (www.cmcs.tiss.edu ), Tata Institute of Social Sciences announces a fellowship for film-makers at an early stage of their career. The fellowship is designed to provide the resources and environment for films that are innovative, relevant and contribute to the growing body of documentary and short film work in India. The fellowship consists of: * A stipend of Rs. 15,000 per month for a maximum period of five months. * The provision of in-house HDV equipment including camera and editing facilities. * Reimbursement of actuals of production expenses on the basis of a pre-approved budget. These expenses are expected to be in the region of 1.5 lakhs, depending on the logistics of the specific project. In order to be considered for the fellowship applicants are required to provide: * A detailed curriculum vitae * Up to two non-returnable samples of work on DVD/VCD. * An essay outlining the film proposal in not more than 2000 words. This essay should include: a working title for the film, language, the central theme of the film, approach to the content and narrative style, possible visual segments. * A production schedule with a detailed time frame for: research and script, cinematography, editing to rough cut, editing to final cut, submission of all material. * A budget for other production expenses (e.g. travel, field expenses, payments to other professionals etc.). Please note that the fellowship does not support any infrastructural costs such as setting up of an office, buying of equipment, or per diem costs. * Names and contact details of two referees, preferably from the field of media, whom we will contact for a reference if needed. The fellowship is open to all Indian nationals. An early career filmmaker is defined as someone who has completed her/his media education not more than 5 years ago. In case of applicants without a media degree, they should have made not more than 5 documentary or short films already. Only one fellowship is available based on the quality of applications. Short-listed candidates may have to come for an interview in the second half of August 2009. Travel will be reimbursed at the rates of three tier non-AC train fare against valid tickets. All proposals must be submitted as hard copies and signed by the film maker. For any queries please contact: cmcs.fellowships at gmail.com > Last date for receipt of applications is July 25, 2009 Terms of the fellowship: o The selected fellow will be paid her/his fellowship amount on a monthly basis and for production expenses in instalments as and when needed. o The footage and final film produced will remain with the Digital Archive of the Centre. However, the fellow might retain a copy of the same, for her/his personal use. The copyright will be held jointly by the fellow and the Centre. The film will be distributed by the Centre as a part of its catalogue of productions. The fellow may also distribute the film. The Centre will be cited in the credits as the Producer of the film and the fellow will be cited as Director of the said film. o The fellow is expected to adhere to the time schedule s/he proposes. Any changes should be notified in advance. o There will be a small advisory committee for each project. The committee will facilitate the work of the fellow. S/he is expected to keep in touch with the committee on a regular basis and discuss and share her/his work at every stage (shooting script/ rough edit and final edit). o The fellow is expected to begin work by October 2009 and complete their films by February 2010, but these dates are negotiable. -- ____________________________________________________________ Anjali Monteiro, Ph.D., Professor K.P. Jayasankar, Ph.D., Professor Centre for Media and Cultural Studies Tata Institute of Social Sciences VN purav Marg, Deonar, Bombay 400 088, India Phone: +91 22 2552 5660 and 5661 (Work) Fax: +91 22 2552 5050 Skype id: anjali.monteiro e-mail: cmcs.tiss at gmail.com URL: www.cmcs.tiss.edu http://ourfamily2007.wordpress.com/ http://naata.wordpress.com/ From yasir.media at gmail.com Sat Jun 27 06:06:46 2009 From: yasir.media at gmail.com (=?windows-1256?B?eWFzaXIgfu3HINPR?=) Date: Sat, 27 Jun 2009 05:36:46 +0500 Subject: [Reader-list] hillarious yomama punditry Message-ID: <5af37bb0906261736qfb8e13jc615494479d09ec9@mail.gmail.com> as if mubarik hussain wasnt enuf of a shocking occulturation we now have a double back flip of farah pundit from sopore to put us in a trance. anyone feel like meducidating on this divine foreboding. its rather strange. . http://bit.ly/3wEEw3 From pawan.durani at gmail.com Sat Jun 27 09:56:55 2009 From: pawan.durani at gmail.com (Pawan Durani) Date: Sat, 27 Jun 2009 09:56:55 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Jihadis abduct, rape young girls in Jammu - Message-ID: <6b79f1a70906262126g1dbd0645n4320777036989671@mail.gmail.com> Wonder why there are no protests ? Jihadis abduct, rape young girls in Jammu The Daily Pioneer OPED | Wednesday, June 17, 2009 Parents live in fear as terrorists force them to part with girls as young as 13, writes Deepika Thussoo Young teenage girls in the terrorist-infested areas of Jammu over the last two decades have not only borne the brunt of insurgent violence, but they have also become the victims of the anger and lust of terrorists. There have been many cases where young girls have been lured or forcibly taken away by terrorists. There have also been cases where terrorists have used the young girls for their own designs, whether it is for gathering or transmitting vital information. Terrorism strikes a deeper injury to the minds of young girls who are just setting out in life, weaving dreams about their future. Abductions, rapes and forced marriages by terrorists in these far-flung areas is not uncommon and it is not surprising that the parents over the years prefer to marry their daughters quite young and migrate to safer areas. The insurgent violence on this side of the Pir Panjal range has dealt a crushing blow to many girl children in areas of Jammu, their plight has largely been ignored by the human rights activists. One of the most poignant examples is Fatima Begum, 17, who grew up in the hilly district of Kishtwar. She was like any other ordinary girl in the area, until one day everything changed for her. She would have not imagined in her worst nightmare that a dreaded terrorist would force her to marry someone on the dictated terms of terror. Instead of social customs or her family’s wishes or love, Fatima entered into matrimony on the compulsions of a terrorist. Imagine a girl in her bare teens having to live with a man under the fear of gun. Imagine her everyday apprehensions of any kind of catastrophe, which could put an end to her life. The entire story came to light in January this year when the police recovered Fatima from a hotel at the bus stand in Kishtwar, having deserted her terrorist husband with whom she had been forced to solemnise the marriage. The boy with whom she claimed to have entered into second marriage was arrested. The details unfolded as the investigations were conducted. Fatima Begum was just 13-year-old when HuJI commander Sher Khan and his associate Billal Ahmed had forced her to marry Hashim Din, son of Alla Ditta, who lived in Chatru. Hashim was reported to have paid a handsome amount to Sher Khan for his marriage with Fatima, who along with her father was tortured by the terrorists and compelled Fatima into marriage at 13. At the age of 14, Fatima gave birth to a child. The terror of Sher Khan along with his associates, however, ended about a year ago when he surrendered before the police. Taking advantage of the situation, Fatima deserted Hashim and escaped from the area with Fareed Ahmed, a local. When Fareed and Fatima returned to Kishtwar after staying for a few days outside, they were taken into custody from the hotel where they were staying. The violence targeting young girls has an old history. In 2003, militants beat a nine-year-old girl, Nazia, to death and critically injured her 11-year-old sister, Shareefa, in the Rajouri Hills area. Reportedly, a group of HuJI terrorists entered the house of one Nisar Hussain in Khabala village. Not finding him at home, they caught hold of his two daughters and beat them with guns to extract information about their father. But others have not been so lucky to get away with a sharp message such as beating, tonsure and have come to bodily harm. Nasreen, a 17-year-old girl of Dalasan village in the Thana Mandi of Rajouri district was abducted by terrorists from her house. She was injected with poison that killed her and her body was found in the jungle. Unfortunately, human rights activists in the area have ignored such critical issues. The girl child continues to be the victim of the insurgent violence, caught many times in the battle between the security forces and terrorists. In May last year, a 17-year-old girl, Amina, of Kishtwar district was killed in cross firing between terrorists and Army in Kanow Patnazi-Kither forests. Following widespread protests by the people blaming the Army for the killing, the State Government ordered a probe into the killing. Even more critical is that these incidents have instilled a fear psychosis in the children, especially girls who never know which eye in the crowd means trouble or death of their dreams. When will the time come when the dreams of these girls will not be coloured with blood? From pawan.durani at gmail.com Sat Jun 27 09:59:04 2009 From: pawan.durani at gmail.com (Pawan Durani) Date: Sat, 27 Jun 2009 09:59:04 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Massacres - contd Message-ID: <6b79f1a70906262129h30314ae4lfdd612e8fd81a596@mail.gmail.com> Rajouri wakes upto another death dance KS Correspondent RAJOURI, Aug 18, 1998: Within a fortnight, the terrorists attacked the minority community once again. This time in Rajouri. Kot Dharra, just eight kms from the district headquarter of Rajouri has remained under terrorist seige during the past three years. In the six attacks so far, the villagers have often been falling victim to the militants’ bullets. Eyewitness accounts said a group of at least three militants, which included some locals as well entered the village around afternoon on August 17. The militants were sighted by a local in the house of her neighbour Haji Jehangir, enjoying lunch. Initially militants wanted to kill this local, but the intervention of Jehangir’s wife earned her reprieve. She was instead locked in one of the rooms. At around 6-45 PM, militants went out to prey for their victims. First they forced their entry into the house of Manohar Lal. He and his relatives Bishamber and Purshottam Kumar were killed. The two, relatives who were brothers-in-law of Lal’s daughter had come from Kalakot to attend dinner. Reports said, while mercenaries kept watch at the nearby CRPF picket, the local militants engaged themselves in the carnage. The militants began firing at the houses of the minority community indiscriminately. After hearing the gun shot, some of the civilians fled from the houses but were chased out and shot dead by militants. Vishwanath, was shot dead in his fields. His son Ashok Kumar was killed inside the house. Suraj Prakash and Seema, the two other children of Vishwanath sustained serious bullet injuries. Chander Prakash, another villager managed to escape to the fields. His wife Chamba Devi, daughter Sakhi and son Suhail were fired upon by the militants beneath the beds of their houses, where they had taken shelter. They were subsequently shifted to the Army hospital. Poonam Devi, after serving tea to her husband had gone to the adjoining playfield of school to collect her two children, Arun and Sakshi. The militants fired indiscriminately on them. The condition of her four-year old son, Arun continues to remain critical. The personnel manning the nearby CRPF picket, erected a few months back, looked the other way, even as militants continued to target people for fifteen minutes. The villagers are bitter that CRPF men remained in hiding inside their bunker and came out only next day morning "just to recover the bodies". Did the State government ever ponder, why Kashmiri Pandits have only contempt for its so-called ‘Action Plans’ on return and ‘Rs 2600 crore Package’. The day it does so, massacres at Kot Dhara and other places will not recur. True, the leaders of Congress and state BJP have used harshest possible expressions to condemn the massacre and the State government. Did they ever ask what their central leaders manning the Home Ministry did to prempt the many massacres and ensure permanent deterrence against ethnic-cleansing. Source: Kashmir Sentinel From akmalik45 at yahoo.com Sat Jun 27 22:36:16 2009 From: akmalik45 at yahoo.com (A.K. Malik) Date: Sat, 27 Jun 2009 10:06:16 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Reader-list] Jihadis abduct, rape young girls in Jammu - Message-ID: <127483.64169.qm@web39104.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Dear Mr Durrani, Is it that we are scared to comment or these news not allowed to gain prominence? Or is it again a case of Muslim appeasement?? (A.K.MALIK) --- On Sat, 6/27/09, Pawan Durani wrote: > From: Pawan Durani > Subject: [Reader-list] Jihadis abduct, rape young girls in Jammu - > To: "reader-list" > Date: Saturday, June 27, 2009, 9:56 AM > Wonder why there are no protests ? > > Jihadis abduct, rape young girls in Jammu > > The Daily Pioneer > OPED | Wednesday, June 17, 2009 > > Parents live in fear as terrorists force them to part with > girls as > young as 13, writes Deepika Thussoo > > Young teenage girls in the terrorist-infested areas of > Jammu over the > last two decades have not only borne the brunt of insurgent > violence, > but they have also become the victims of the anger and lust > of > terrorists. There have been many cases where young girls > have been > lured or forcibly taken away by terrorists. There have also > been cases > where terrorists have used the young girls for their own > designs, > whether it is for gathering or transmitting vital > information. > > Terrorism strikes a deeper injury to the minds of young > girls who are > just setting out in life, weaving dreams about their > future. > > Abductions, rapes and forced marriages by terrorists in > these > far-flung areas is not uncommon and it is not surprising > that the > parents over the years prefer to marry their daughters > quite young and > migrate to safer areas. The insurgent violence on this side > of the Pir > Panjal range has dealt a crushing blow to many girl > children in areas > of Jammu, their plight has largely been ignored by the > human rights > activists. > > One of the most poignant examples is Fatima Begum, 17, who > grew up in > the hilly district of Kishtwar. She was like any other > ordinary girl > in the area, until one day everything changed for her. She > would have > not imagined in her worst nightmare that a dreaded > terrorist would > force her to marry someone on the dictated terms of terror. > Instead of > social customs or her family’s wishes or love, Fatima > entered into > matrimony on the compulsions of a terrorist. > > Imagine a girl in her bare teens having to live with a man > under the > fear of gun. Imagine her everyday apprehensions of any kind > of > catastrophe, which could put an end to her life. > > The entire story came to light in January this year when > the police > recovered Fatima from a hotel at the bus stand in Kishtwar, > having > deserted her terrorist husband with whom she had been > forced to > solemnise the marriage. The boy with whom she claimed to > have entered > into second marriage was arrested. > > The details unfolded as the investigations were conducted. > Fatima > Begum was just 13-year-old when HuJI commander Sher Khan > and his > associate Billal Ahmed had forced her to marry Hashim Din, > son of Alla > Ditta, who lived in Chatru. Hashim was reported to have > paid a > handsome amount to Sher Khan for his marriage with Fatima, > who along > with her father was tortured by the terrorists and > compelled Fatima > into marriage at 13. At the age of 14, Fatima gave birth to > a child. > > The terror of Sher Khan along with his associates, however, > ended > about a year ago when he surrendered before the police. > Taking > advantage of the situation, Fatima deserted Hashim and > escaped from > the area with Fareed Ahmed, a local. When Fareed and Fatima > returned > to Kishtwar after staying for a few days outside, they were > taken into > custody from the hotel where they were staying. > > The violence targeting young girls has an old history. In > 2003, > militants beat a nine-year-old girl, Nazia, to death and > critically > injured her 11-year-old sister, Shareefa, in the Rajouri > Hills area. > Reportedly, a group of HuJI terrorists entered the house of > one Nisar > Hussain in Khabala village. Not finding him at home, they > caught hold > of his two daughters and beat them with guns to extract > information > about their father. > > But others have not been so lucky to get away with a sharp > message > such as beating, tonsure and have come to bodily harm. > Nasreen, a > 17-year-old girl of Dalasan village in the Thana Mandi of > Rajouri > district was abducted by terrorists from her house. She was > injected > with poison that killed her and her body was found in the > jungle. > Unfortunately, human rights activists in the area have > ignored such > critical issues. > > The girl child continues to be the victim of the insurgent > violence, > caught many times in the battle between the security forces > and > terrorists. In May last year, a 17-year-old girl, Amina, of > Kishtwar > district was killed in cross firing between terrorists and > Army in > Kanow Patnazi-Kither forests. Following widespread protests > by the > people blaming the Army for the killing, the State > Government ordered > a probe into the killing. > > Even more critical is that these incidents have instilled a > fear > psychosis in the children, especially girls who never know > which eye > in the crowd means trouble or death of their dreams. When > will the > time come when the dreams of these girls will not be > coloured with > blood? > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the > city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net > with subscribe in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> From isouweine at gmail.com Sat Jun 27 22:55:26 2009 From: isouweine at gmail.com (Isaac souweine) Date: Sun, 28 Jun 2009 01:25:26 +0800 Subject: [Reader-list] Gap Minder In-Reply-To: <65be9bf40906150714x63a52139u3a40a485e9880f13@mail.gmail.com> References: <0ABE6237-A4F1-49CA-9C78-8BAEF0448E28@sarai.net> <65be9bf40906082146vf23e945m205b6c0fc95ba6e3@mail.gmail.com> <34bf33330906140413x2e0e7cejf0f59ce949dedfc9@mail.gmail.com> <65be9bf40906150714x63a52139u3a40a485e9880f13@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <34bf33330906271025o5e5f3f57p5c51f139d5b2f58@mail.gmail.com> Dear Taha, Thanks for your enthusiasm and sorry for the late reply - I just finished final exams. Anyway, to start off, here's what I understand as the "bad case" for visualization technologies, drawing on what you write below. Statistics themselves do not contain truth per se. Rather, they are simply a pallete with with which we paint whatever truths we find convenient. Such stories are invariably told more effectively by the powerful. Therefore, visualization technologiers just represent another tool in the arsenal of oppression and power. Damn lies told with a bit more flare. The soft version of this thesis simply calls into question the conclusions based on statistics, i.e. their official intepretation. The hard version calls into question the method for defining or gathering statistics, i.e. their construction. The extremely hard version disputes the role of statistics in effacing individuals. Now, here is what I understand as the "good case". The modern world produces phenomenal amounts of data at every level. Within this data is contained all sorts of truth - scientific, sociological etc. Accessing this truth is itself a vexed problem that requires sophisticated technology and training. Rendering these truths then sensible for larger audiences is further complex. With the advent of technologies like Gapminder and really with the whole revolution is information design that we see daily displayed on websites everywhere, fundamental facets about our world are made more sensible. Implict truths become explicit when places in time sequences or rendered in creative displays. In the political context, important issues are thus opened more clearly to debate and discussion by a broader array of people. In the classical Millian liberal formulation, public discourse produces public goods. To proceed, I think we would need to dispense with the hard and super hard versions of the bad case, since otherwise visualizations are fundamentally flawed no matter who makes them. To make this move, we have to privilege the picture you paint in your first paragraph, which involves intepretation and counter-intepretation of statistics in Britain, rather than the arguments made later about rationality etc. I'm guessing that this might not sit entirely well with you, so I appreciate you humoring me. If we do make this move, we are left with a question of who will benefit more from visualization technologies - the "powerful" or the masses. In other words, whose narratives will be more amplified? Considering the larger social patterns we have seen with information technology, I would feel fairly safe betting that the masses will win this battle. So, for example, imagine the power of Gapminder coupled with data sets provided by governments, like these: http://www.data.gov/. Isn't this setting the stage for a time where more and more people can craft their own narratives and then insert these narratives into the political process? In other words - Gapminder as the visual soundtrack to an age of information dissemination and democratization.e I know I've sort of skipped over the epistemological and aesthetic nuts and bolts of data visualization, not to mention many issues that you raised, but perhaps this gives a very simple version of what I am thinking about? I hope you find it interesting. Best, Isaac On Mon, Jun 15, 2009 at 10:14 PM, Taha Mehmood <2tahamehmood at googlemail.com>wrote: > Dear Issac (and All ) > > It is nice to see some posts on emerging 'nice/pretty nice' ways of > looking at data. In this regard, the overlap of aesthetics and > epistemology is indeed interesting. > > Some preliminary questions came up while thinking about these issues, > I have tried to list them as follows- for instance, I do not know how > notions with respect to truth claims or validity of representation > could be reasonably dealt with a certain amount of confidence while > using quantitative data? This is a contested territory both > epistemologically and aesthetically. Even in a decision making > process which relies on quantitative data one wonders how questions > related to ruling ideology of the day and its role in molding > seemingly 'rational' decisions are addressed? For instance take the > case of policies related to urban planning in the UK. For the last 60 > years official statistical organizations have been churning numbers > which suit the ideology of the day. Hence in the name of > Reconstruction, Revitalization, Renewal, Redevelopment and > Regeneration, the policy makers have been able to create a seemingly > rational rhetoric to push their agendas. While in the hind sight many > so called experts have successfully refuted the claims of such > propositions and were able to generate a counter imagery using almost > the same set of numbers. > > Do these visual representations by their very nature not tend to iron > out various underlying variables which make up this data? Do all > political process everywhere appeal to a so called 'rational' form of > decision making process? How should one approach the question of > 'rationality' in political decision making? Is there some universal > system or process through which political discourse or policy > decisions sprouting from such a discourse could be referred to and > could one conclusively locate 'rationality' in such a process? Does > questions related to data and its visualization or representation > appeal to only political structures and leave no room for some times > 'irrational' agency of operators, agents or actors? > > In this regard, Isaac, could you please articulate a bit more on > your claim, that such data could be 'a boon to political discourse > and rational decision making'. This claim might be true in some places > but from a south asian perspective I think one would hesitate before > advocating a blatant use of data to boost political discourse or to > make 'rational decisions' :) For instance, on a broad level, in the last > thirty years at least, in > a country like India, we did not have a single instance of mass > political mobilization by some political dispensation which was able > to use some correlations based on 'nice/pretty nice' data or analysis > and make a serious bid to power or emerge as a serious long term > player. > At the same time I think numbers are an essential tool for governance > related issues, or to analyze the purported impact of a policy in this > regard I do not think I would have pitched my tone to the tune of > 'lies, counter lies...'. > > Having said that, I would be very interested if you could please share > with us any instances where data or resultant correlationships were or > are being used to aid either 'political discourse' or 'rational > decision making' process. In this regard maybe you could also > elaborate more on the overlaps of aesthetics and epistemology. It > would be indeed very informative to know more about ways of looking > and think about questions related to visual rhetoric and claims to > valid forms of knowledge about society. > > I look forward to your reply. > > Warm regards > > Taha > From rakesh.rnbdj at gmail.com Sun Jun 28 00:05:07 2009 From: rakesh.rnbdj at gmail.com (Rakesh Iyer) Date: Sun, 28 Jun 2009 00:05:07 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Global Warming Message-ID: Dear all I felt in all this mix of issues about identity and religion and rest, somewhere global warming seems to have been lost. What we forget is that the Kashmiri Pandits can think of getting back to their homes, the Muslims of post-Godhra violence can get back their justice, and other things can also be dealt with, if we all actually survive at all. And global warming is one of the dangers pointing to the fact that we may not do so. Not to minimize the importance of issues of the rights of the Pandits or the Muslims or others, but I believe on it's own it is a serious issue and really something we have to act against right now, to save our planet Earth from all that is happening, the cyclones, the floods, the terrible devastation on large scale, the changing climate patterns and other ordeals we all are going through. I present here an article by Shri Gopal Krishna Gandhi, the Governor of Bengal, someone I like very much for his views (and so do the Bengalis, for the way he speaks out against atrocities, and is with the common people, be it Nandigram, Singur or those affected by Cyclone Alia in the Sunderbans). Hope you all read and enjoy it, and try to do something which can contribute to this movement. Regards Rakesh Article: *Deaf To The Countdown * * How long can we live in denial of imminent annihilation?* GOPALKRISHNA GANDHI Newspapers recently carried an artist's vivid imaging of a collision of Earth and Mars that is supposed to take place some three billion years from now. As I was pondering over the image of the two planets melting into each other, I was reminded of a conversation—a real, not an imaginary one—between an astronomy teacher and his student. The teacher had suggested that the sun and the earth were slowly, but ever so steadily, moving towards each other. He said our planet, a few billion years from now, will therefore burn into a plume of vapour. The student then asked, anxiety writ all over him, "How many billion years would that take?" The teacher said, "About six billion." "Oh!" breathed the student in relief, "that's alright then. I thought it was three billion." Ours has to be the age of denial. Natural hazards like asteroid impacts and earthquakes also perform the role of the astronomy teacher. They alert us to the laws and procedures of Planet Earth. The unmistakable signs of climate change are also our teacher. They warn us of what lies ahead. But unlike the earth-sun approximation, the multiple shocks created by climate change are not going to wait for six billion years. They are not going to wait 600 years; not even six decades. If you have seen pictures taken even five years ago of Antarctica, of Gaumukh, or of Ghoramara islet in the Sunderbans, and you see those formations now, you will know what I mean. Global warming and the rising mean sea level are changing the face of the earth. West Bengal's riverbanks and estuaries, where land crumbles like a biscuit into a coffee cup, show this phenomenon dramatically. And on the same Faculty of Reminders of Grim Prognoses are Dr Terror and Professor Error—bio-terror, bio-error, chemical terror, chemical error, nuclear terror, nuclear error. And then there are possible nano catastrophes. The twins of terror and error—biological, chemical and nuclear—belong not just to the realm of the possible but, let us be strong enough to admit, to that of the highly probable. These are all around us and can come face to face with us at any moment, including this one. Or the next. 'Devices' falling into non-state hands is a probability that should make us all more than concerned. Installations going wrong, or their safety systems going to sleep, too, are real fears. Human society in general is like the astronomy student, seeking refuge in the comfortable illusion that these risks, though real, are still far from us in time and in space. Ours has to be the age of denial. Any one of the risks I have mentioned can disfigure life, even make it disappear. And to these risks is now added climate change, man-propelled, though working through the instrumentation of 'natural' phenomena. Lord Martin Rees, the Astronomer Royal of England, who is really a philosopher-astrophysicist, has said with compelling and persuasive seriousness, in his gripping book *The Final Century*, that taking all risks—including the risks inherent in science experiments—into account, the chances of human life surviving this century are 50:50. *Wired* magazine carried a series of "long bets" in 2002 about future predictions in society, science and technology. Lord Rees staked one thousand dollars on the bet: "That by the year 2020 an instance of bio-error or bio-terror will have killed a million people." He says he fervently hopes to lose the bet, but honestly does not expect to. "Twenty-twenty" is a mere 11 years away. The end of this century is just nine decades away. Will our grandchildren and our great grandchildren see it? We have no reason to feel assured. We have every reason to worry. And great need, an existential need, in fact, to act. And yet, far from worrying and very far from acting, we are in denial. Scientists, like statesmen, have been agents of change. They have changed things by what they have understood and explained, but most significantly, they have changed things by what they have done. They have sometimes changed so much and so fast that they have had to run behind some of their own creations to say, "Stop! I did not mean to unleash you like that!" At Los Alamos, in 1945, as he saw the explosion illumine, intensify, pummel, roll, liquefy and gasify the landscape before his eyes, Oppenheimer invoked the *Bhagavad Gita*, as we all know, in its description of "all-devouring death". The 1955 manifesto on the nuclear peril prepared by Bertrand Russell and signed, among others, by Einstein, in one of his "last acts", deserves to be known as much as Lincoln's Gettysburg address for its calm determination, or Martin Luther King's "I have a dream" for its sense of immediacy. The authors say in that profound document that they are "speaking...not as members of this or that nation, continent or creed, but as human beings, members of the species Man, whose continued existence is in doubt". Today doubt assails us not just about the nuclear peril but about a great many other perils as well, perils that have swollen to monstrous dimensions by man's actions over the last 100 years or so. Many of you have, I am sure, read Guiseppe Tomasi di Lampedusa's fascinating novel *The Leopard*, a universal and timeless story. In it, Tancredi says about the Sicilian Prince of Salina, "If we want things to stay as they are, things will have to change." To "stay as they are", to "stay as we are" or, in simple words, to survive, even up to 2020, things will have to change. But—and this BUT is all in capital letters—things will have to change not in the way they have been changing; things will have to change very, very differently. Scientists and statesmen have, as I said, been able to change. But now they face a choice—not between being 'changers' or 'no-changers', not between so-called 'progress' and so-called 'status quo', but a choice between the same kind of change and a new kind of change. They face what can only be called the task of changing change itself, the direction of change, the aim of change and, indeed, the nature of change. And, borrowing from the 1955 manifesto, they need to do this as "members of the species Man whose continued existence is in doubt". In this, scientists and statesmen will need also to do another extremely difficult thing—namely, carry society with them. Are the world's statesmen and scientists prepared to do this? Do they realise that they need to do it? Is society ready for it? Is it ready to unlearn what a short- sighted generation of ideologues has for decades taught it? I believe several among statesmen and scientists are so prepared. Likewise, so are large sections of society. Action to reduce "BNC" arsenals by major powers has, we must acknowledge, done well; no small achievement in our cynical times. Climate change too is on serious government agendas the world over. Prime Minister Manmohan Singh's setting up a special team on climate change and the initiatives being monitored by Dr R.K. Pachauri and the dynamic new minister for environment, Jairam Ramesh, show that India is serious about mitigating climate change. But the comprehensive change in change, let us be honest, by bulk consumers of energy and fuel is not proportionate-by-half to the need for it. Scientists have to be technologists, just as artists have to be craftsmen, and just as statesmen have to be politicians. But then scientists can be philosophers as well, since they deal with the Substances of Life, just as artists can be visionaries since they deal with the Essences of Being.I described Martin Rees as a philosopher-astrophysicist. He shows the way. More specifically, as men and women who have mastered the cognitive process and the empirical method, scientists have it in them to be empirical philosophers. And in that role they have it in them to make ours not the final century, but an altogether new one. The most abiding changes in history have come from changes brought about from within the agents of change. Our first prime minister, Jawaharlal Nehru, is rightly regarded as the architect of modern India. But let us recall what his distinguished biographer Sarvepalli Gopal has written about him: "Nehru...who, at the end of 1956, surveying the large Bhakra-Nangal dam had whispered to himself, 'These are the new temples of India where I worship', confessed nearly two years later that he doubted very much if the government would have initiated such a project if it came before them at this time...." It is time, I believe, for new 1955 manifestos covering all our perils beyond the nuclear one. The time has come for the world of science to move from the creation of destruction and the destruction of creation—which we have all witnessed unrelentingly since 1945—to the fostering of our planet in all its manifold diversity. The hour has come, but the minutes are fleeting! Former president A.P.J. Abdul Kalam held up, quite rightly, the year 2020 as a development milestone, a milestone for progress, for growth. But what if the road to that golden milestone is strewn with landmines laid by Dr Terror and Prof Error? The need now is for the alchemising touch of inner change, the touch of redemption, within the impulses of our design for earth's future. This can only be brought about by the power of our 21st century's observational mind. We need as a generation to move beyond outdated thought. Forms of faster growth will be a fatal exercise. Not faster but different forms of growth, new paradigms of progress, and fresh definitions of development are what we need. The opposite of acceleration is not deceleration, but the attaining of an optimal pace through what the Buddha called Right Understanding. The faculty to distinguish between right and wrong is ingrained in all of us. It is connected to a sense of responsibility. Individual scientists who wield and use power know this better than others. As Richard Preston (quoted by Lord Rees in *The Final Century*) has said: "The main thing that stands between the human species and the creation of a supervirus (that can be used in bio-warfare) is a sense of responsibility among the individual scientists." What is needed by Planet Earth is not a rollback, nor a "return to simplicity". The opposite of complexity is not simplicity, but clarity. Ours is the century of three negative 'globalisations'—global meltdown, global terror and global warming. All three are boomerangs hurling back to hit the very world that swung and set them in motion. When statesmen and scientists work for the globe as a whole rather than for slices of it, they become agents of the change that we need from within politics and within science. If they do not, the world will have 'business as usual'. Until, of course, the lights go out, literally and metaphorically. And the generators have no diesel left in them and the alternatives shrivel up. But if they do, a new dynamism can return to the earth. We, in India, take just pride in our exciting space venture, Chandrayaana. That huge undertaking is important for us. But in the scheme of life, while there is such a thing as the important, there is also such a thing as the urgent.When, from our mountains to our oceans, our terais to our beaches, we see human interventions scooping the soul out of our heritage, when plastic garbage grows like an indestructible fungus over every inch of public space, when cement structures grow like pustules over public and private space, when our Himalayan forests struggle, when our glaciers shrink, when our rivers grow low or thick with silt and pollutants, our aquifers begin to dry and die, and the air we breathe is laden with toxic gases, we need, alongside Chandrayaana, with equal magnificence and equal success, a Prithviyaana, which includes a Himayaana, a Vanayaana, a Jalayaana and a Vaayuyaana as well. More importantly, we need to modify the Mahayaana of mindless growth propelled by bulk consumers of energy and fuel into a Hinayaana of ecological intelligence and human responsibility. ------------------------------ *(The author is Governor of West Bengal. This essay has been adapted from a speech he delivered in Calcutta on June 16 at the Variable Energy Cyclotron Centre, Department of Atomic Energy.)* From 2tahamehmood at googlemail.com Sun Jun 28 00:18:03 2009 From: 2tahamehmood at googlemail.com (Taha Mehmood) Date: Sat, 27 Jun 2009 19:48:03 +0100 Subject: [Reader-list] Citizen IDs to cost Rs 1.5 lakh crore - 131 Message-ID: <65be9bf40906271148m773228d7g71f76c24229ac4e@mail.gmail.com> Dear All All this while I have been maintaining that MNIC project is going to cost 'us' anywhere between 25000-30000 crore rupees but it seems that I have been grossly wrong in estimating the scale of costs involved. Not withstanding the fact there is no clear way in which one can identify a person as a particular person, neither can one completely map one thousand million people without committing gross errors, nor can one be completely assured that such a scheme will be beneficial in all aspects to all Indians, it seems that a dream of citizenship and identity is being sold in the name of a digitized plastic token in MNIC. As the TOI report below suggests, the cost will be to the tune of 1.5 Lakh crore rupees :) (unfortunately Jeebesh it seems that 'disquiet' suddenly has no currency) Now this is very significant. 'Other' budgetary allotments, like health, education, or even basic sanitation appear minuscule when compared to MNIC. What sort of message does the GOI intends to spread with investing so much of money with MNIC? Why does the government feels that having a digitized plastic token will be more beneficial to Indian citizens than having solid institutions or having infrastructural support? Is this redistribution of public wealth justified? Who are the key players of MNIC project? Who will 'actually' benefit from a transfer of 1.5lakh crore rupees? Warm regards Taha http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/India/Citizen-IDs-to-cost-Rs-15-lakh-crore/articleshow/4703794.cms Citizen IDs to cost Rs 1.5 lakh crore 26 Jun 2009, 0156 hrs IST, TNN With the central government announcing a panel to implement the programme of giving identity cards to all citizens of the country, it appears that this much hyped scheme is finally getting some traction. It is estimated that this gigantic and complex exercise will involve an expenditure of over Rs 1.5 lakh crore. It will put India in the club of about 56 countries around the world, which have some form of national identity cards. These include most of continental Europe (not UK), China, Brazil, Japan, Iran, Israel and Indonesia. The idea itself is not new, but in the past it had not received a clear centralized push. As a result, several pretenders emerged and vied with each other, creating confusion typical of India. There is the PAN card created by the tax department but now used for diverse financial transactions. Then there is the photo ID card issued by the Election Commission, primarily meant for voting. Earlier, ration cards were the mainstay of identity proof, but lost their relevance as the ration system became restricted. Driving licenses are popularly used as ID but only a very small fraction of the country’s billion-plus citizens have them. In 2003, the government decided to launch a pilot project for providing the Multipurpose National Identity Card (MNIC) to 31 lakh people in 12 states and one UT. This exercise was to give a taste of what is entailed in giving ID cards to citizens. The first card was delivered only in 2007 and it is still in progress. In January this year, the apex court got involved, suggesting to that nation identity cards should be made mandatory for all citizens. This contributed to energizing the languishing program. The first step in issuing ID cards is building a complete computerized record of all citizens above the age of 18. It needs to be computerized so that it is accessible and it can be updated constantly. The task is being done by the Registrar General of India (RGI) under the home ministry, because they have the requisite experience after all, the RGI carries out the census every decade. In fact, this database is going to be generated along with the next Census, slated for 2011. It will be called the National Population Register. The technical challenge is to create a tamper-proof smart card, which can function in Indian conditions. A sophisticated software called SCOSTA will reportedly be used for creating the cards. The cards would contain as many as 16 pieces of personal information. This information will be stored in micro-chips embedded in the card and it will be accessible only to authorized users, like police officials. Apart from carrying personal details like photo, age, address and fingerprints, the MNIC will contain a National Identity Number, which will be unique to the individual. The other challenge is to computerize the civil registration system across the country so that all births and deaths are entered into the population register. From rakesh.rnbdj at gmail.com Sun Jun 28 00:19:53 2009 From: rakesh.rnbdj at gmail.com (Rakesh Iyer) Date: Sun, 28 Jun 2009 00:19:53 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Jihadis abduct, rape young girls in Jammu - In-Reply-To: <127483.64169.qm@web39104.mail.mud.yahoo.com> References: <127483.64169.qm@web39104.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: Dear Malik jee I don't understand how skewed can your views be? The incident has been reported in the Daily Pioneer. What do you want? Do you want the case to run like 24- hr news item the way our media reports, and then reduce it to caricature? Do you want our newsprint media to also portray it the way they usually do, and thereby reduce it to just one news? Or do you want only all news of Hindu sufferings to be published, and no news of any Muslim or Christian or any other suffering to be banned? What do you want? What is your problem, if I may ask you? In anything and everything you see Muslim appeasement only. When the Indian govt decides to give Haj subsidies, it's Muslim appeasement. When the Indian govt decides to reserve seats for Indian Muslims, it's Muslim appeasement. When the Indian govt decides to set up bank branches in Muslim dominated areas, it's Muslim appeasement. Obeying the recommendations of the Sachar Committee Report is Muslim appeasement. But naming the missiles of India as 'Arjun' or giving them only Hindu mythical names is not appeasement. The decision of Indian govt to build the Somnath temple by public money is not appeasement. Neither is it appeasement to spend money of the public on Amarnath and Kedarnath yatras, even to give security there, that too by organizations other than the police. It's not an appeasement indeed to state that India is taken as a 'Hindu' rashtra (by the BJP govt of course). So giving money for temple construction or allowing people in the name of Hindutva to destroy mosques and mazars is not appeasement too. Malik jee, for every one argument you give about Muslim appeasement, I will give you an example of Hindu appeasement. And this will not end. What I want to know is this, what do you wish to portray through this end listing? And this is all for those who believe there is Muslim appeasment in India. Let me state the obvious here. India is a state where every community is appeased or sought to be appeased. It's a compromise with which we have to live. Otherwise, there always is the option of breaking away into 543 and more principalities where each minority section can live amongst themselves, produce amongst themselves and not bother others. Learn to compromise Malik jee. That's how we live as India. Otherwise, be prepared for thousands of partitions of India. And if you think partition is not trauma, remember 1947 or at least read about it. And for more, you can read about how Pakistan felt in 1971 after losing Bangladesh. I would have been happy if you had said that let's not stop at appeasement but take steps to improve the lives of people on the ground. But this is simply name calling and nothing else. Regards Rakesh From rakesh.rnbdj at gmail.com Sun Jun 28 00:21:56 2009 From: rakesh.rnbdj at gmail.com (Rakesh Iyer) Date: Sun, 28 Jun 2009 00:21:56 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Jihadis abduct, rape young girls in Jammu - In-Reply-To: References: <127483.64169.qm@web39104.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: Dear Pawan jee On the rape issue, it's seriously a very wrong thing and is totally condemnable. It should be dealt with appropriately and agencies of the state should work towards minimizing the occurrence of such incidences, to the point of total eradication. Any rape by any person, be it security forces or terrorists or common person or anyone, is condemnable and deserves strict punishment (which I feel is life imprisonment in most cases). Regards Rakesh From 2tahamehmood at googlemail.com Sun Jun 28 00:53:08 2009 From: 2tahamehmood at googlemail.com (Taha Mehmood) Date: Sat, 27 Jun 2009 20:23:08 +0100 Subject: [Reader-list] Nilekani to quit Infosys, lead UIDAI - 132 Message-ID: <65be9bf40906271223m66554a51uad2456750d741cb1@mail.gmail.com> http://www.utvi.com/news/latest-business-news-india/25715/nilekani-to-lead-national-id-scheme.html Nilekani to quit Infosys, lead UIDAI Amritanshu Rai and Himani Kaushik, UTVi NEW DELHI: Improving governance is top of the agenda for the government. Prime Minister Manmohan Singh has appointed Infosys co-chairman Nandan Nilekani as chairperson of Unique Identification Authority of India (UIDAI). Nilekani will enjoy the rank and status of a Cabinet Minister. The authority will issue unique identification card to every citizen, and will eliminate the need for multiple identification mechanisms. Nilekani will have to work with various central and state government agencies to create a citizen database. To begin with, UIDAI will issue numbers to all voters by building on the current electoral data. Progressively, other people, including those below 18 years, will be added to the list. Once this is done, it is expected to replace several other identification cards issued by the govt. Currently, central and state governments issue many cards including PAN cards, drivers licences, passports, ration cards and provident fund numbers. The pilot project is expected to issue the first few cards within an year. The unique identity scheme will be overseen by an empowered group. The empowered group will have representatives from all crucial ministries like the home Ministry, finance ministry, law ministry and rural development ministry. The government wants to give benefits to targeted groups but does not have a consolidated database, UIDAI will be responsible for this data so that if the government wants to provide food security to the weakest section, it can pull out information from the newly set-up authority and disburse benefits to the targeted group. The challenge for chairman Nandan Nilekani will be to provide these cards to a billion plus people in three years. Speaking on the project, Nilekani said: "It is huge challenge both technologically as well as at the co-ordination level." He added that the unique number will become a unifier instead of adding one more card for the citizen. Nilekani has decided to step down from the board of Infosys after taking charge of the programme. The board today accepted Nandan's resignation, which will be effective July 9, 2009. The board placed on record its deep sense of appreciation for the services rendered by Nandan Nilekani as co-founder, chief operating officer, chief executive officer and managing director and co-chairman of the board. N R Narayana Murthy, chairman and chief mentor, Infosys, said: "We are glad that an extraordinary individual like Nandan has got an opportunity to add value to India through this position. As a company that has always put the interest of the society ahead of itself, Infosys will accept his absence with a sense of duty to a larger cause but with deep sadness at the departure of one of her most illustrious sons. We, the Infoscions, wish him the best in his new assignment." Montek Singh Ahluwalia, deputy chairman, Planning Commission, said the scheme would be the largest unique identification system across the world once it is implemented.. He added that the scheme is absolutely high priority for the government, and can eliminate multiple identification schemes. Kris Gopalakrishnan, chief executive officer, Infosys, said Nilekani would continue to be a shareholder in Infosys. From monica at sarai.net Sun Jun 28 01:42:19 2009 From: monica at sarai.net (Monica Narula) Date: Sun, 28 Jun 2009 01:42:19 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Cyberwar guide for Iran elections Message-ID: <82EFC847-BD29-41EB-B5A6-8B701D87453E@sarai.net> Cyberwar guide for Iran elections Posted by Cory Doctorow, June 16, 2009 3:25 AM | permalink SOURCE: boingboing.net Yishay sez, "The road to hell is paved with the best intentions (including mine). Learn how to actually help the protesters and not the gov't in Iran." The purpose of this guide is to help you participate constructively in the Iranian election protests through Twitter. 1. Do NOT publicise proxy IP's over twitter, and especially not using the #iranelection hashtag. Security forces are monitoring this hashtag, and the moment they identify a proxy IP they will block it in Iran. If you are creating new proxies for the Iranian bloggers, DM them to @stopAhmadi or @iran09 and they will distributed them discretely to bloggers in Iran. 2. Hashtags, the only two legitimate hashtags being used by bloggers in Iran are #iranelection and #gr88, other hashtag ideas run the risk of diluting the conversation. 3. Keep you bull$hit filter up! Security forces are now setting up twitter accounts to spread disinformation by posing as Iranian protesters. Please don't retweet impetuosly, try to confirm information with reliable sources before retweeting. The legitimate sources are not hard to find and follow. 4. Help cover the bloggers: change your twitter settings so that your location is TEHRAN and your time zone is GMT +3.30. Security forces are hunting for bloggers using location and timezone searches. If we all become 'Iranians' it becomes much harder to find them. 5. Don't blow their cover! If you discover a genuine source, please don't publicise their name or location on a website. These bloggers are in REAL danger. Spread the word discretely through your own networks but don't signpost them to the security forces. People are dying there, for real, please keep that in mind... #iranelection cyberwar guide for beginners (Thanks, Yishay!) Previously: * Iran SMS networks "mysteriously" fail right before elections ... * Iran: Activists Launch Hack Attacks on Tehran Regime - Boing Boing * Iranian election uprising: Twitter tracks it real-time, Iranian ... 6. Denial of Service attacks. If you don't know what you are doing, stay out of this game. Only target those sites the legitimate Iranian bloggers are designating. Be aware that these attacks can have detrimental effects to the network the protesters are relying on. Keep monitoring their traffic to note when you should turn the taps on or off. 7. Do spread the (legitimate) word, it works! When the bloggers asked for twitter maintenance to be postponed using the #nomaintenance tag, it had the desired effect. As long as we spread good information, provide moral support to the protesters, and take our lead from the legitimate bloggers, we can make a constructive contribution. Please remember that this is about the future of the Iranian people, while it might be exciting to get caught up in the flow of participating in a new meme, do not lose sight of what this is really about." please share this article widely. This is our protocol. Monica Narula Raqs Media Collective Sarai-CSDS www.raqsmediacollective.net www.sarai.net From whitenoise24 at gmail.com Sun Jun 28 16:07:32 2009 From: whitenoise24 at gmail.com (sridevi panikkar) Date: Sun, 28 Jun 2009 16:07:32 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Join the protest demonstration against Police- Military action on Lalgarh People In-Reply-To: <431944be0906280325x3fa8acdyf0eeb7bc2242cb1c@mail.gmail.com> References: <52546dd70906260229u2c78cb4bwf3e56f8f8e7aa148@mail.gmail.com> <431944be0906280325x3fa8acdyf0eeb7bc2242cb1c@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: ---------- Forwarded message ---------- Demonstration Revolutionary Democratic Front (RDF) and Naujawan Bharat Sabha(NBS) call for a protest demonstration at CPI (M) Central office A K Gopalan Bhhawan( Bhai veer Singh Marg) in New Delhi in protest against the deployment of BSF, Assam Rifles, CRPF, Cobra and other elite paramilitary forces along with the West Bengal police against the tribal people in Lalgarh of the Jungal Mahal region. And to express solidarity with the tribals of Lalgarh-Jangal Mahal Demanding Ø Immediate withdrawal of Central paramilitary forces and West Bengal state police forces from Lalgarh and adjoining areas, Ø The Central Govt. and West Bengal Govt. should initiate dialogue with the tribals on their demands for the political solution and immediately address the demands of the tribal people in Lalgarh, Ø Stop harassing women and children for refusing to be mistreated and exploited. Ø Immediate steps be taken to end all sufferings of the tribals due to the actions of Central and state forces. Join the protest demonstration of intellectuals, workers, students, youth, writers and social activists At CPI (M) Office, A K Gopalan Bhawan Bhai Veer Singh Marg, New Delhi On June 30 (Tuesday), 2009 At 11 AM Revolutionary Democratic Front (RDF) & Naujawan Bharat Sabha (NBS) -- G N SAIBABA From kshmendra2005 at yahoo.com Sun Jun 28 16:09:17 2009 From: kshmendra2005 at yahoo.com (Kshmendra Kaul) Date: Sun, 28 Jun 2009 03:39:17 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Reader-list] Fw: ISI Killed Youth in Gilgit Message-ID: <937290.97954.qm@web57203.mail.re3.yahoo.com> EXTRACT FROM "URGENT APPEAL"   "Its irony that the 2 million local indigenous people of this disputed land have no right  to seek the Justice anywhere because it does not fall under the constitutionally Jurisdiction of  Pakistan and it’s courts. There is no High Court  and Supreme Court to appeal against Human Rights  violation, because the occupation forces and its intelligence agencies have the right to kidnap and kill anyone with impunity." --- On Sat, 6/27/09, Balawaristan Front wrote:   From: Balawaristan Front Subject: ISI Killed Youth in Gilgit To: XXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXX Date: Saturday, June 27, 2009, 10:26 PM   Urgent Appeal Sadiq Ali s/o Rajab Ali age 30 an innocent man and son of a former district member from Jafarabd,  Nagir was arrested by city Police Station Gilgit, but took over by ISI and tortured him seriously in a fake murder case.   He was in Rawalpindi Pakistan when a person was killed in Gilgit and he has no links with that murder case. He was again handed over to Police by ISI in the night of 26  June in critical situation  as a result he was succumb to death in the Hospital Gilgit on 26 June 2009.   According to the written law of Pakistan Police have the power to detain any suspect on solid ground but Intelligence Agencies have no power to arrest and detain anyone.   But in Pakistan as well as in this occupied territory no role of law but the rule of Jungle is prevailed and no one can challenge this trend of Pakistan Army and its Intelligence Agencies.   This is the time where the family of the victim has no place to go where a case can be registered against  ISI commander who have build a secret underground torture cell near Gilgit Airport.   Its irony that the 2 million local indigenous people of this disputed land have no right  to seek the Justice anywhere because it does not fall under the constitutionally Jurisdiction of  Pakistan and it’s courts. There is no High Court  and Supreme Court to appeal against Human Rights  violation, because the occupation forces and its intelligence agencies have the right to kidnap and kill anyone with impunity.   We the 2 million people of Balawaristan (Pakistan Occupied Gilgit Baltistan) appeal UNO, EU, Human Rights organizations and civilized world to bring FCNA Major General Muzamil Hussain along with the Commander of ISI and other culprits to justice. This is the obligation of UNO and civilized world particularly to provide justice to the victim by taking this issue seriously, because this is disputed territory of Jammu & Kashmir according to the UN resolutions.   Abdul Hamid Khan Chairman Balawaristan National Front (BNF) Head Off: Majini mahla, Gilgit, Balawaristan (Pakistan Occupied Gilgit Baltistan) www.balawaristan.net, Email: balawaristan at gmail.com, chairmanBNF at gmail.com,balawaristan at hotmail.com  Tele: 0032 22311750 From kshmendra2005 at yahoo.com Sun Jun 28 17:27:57 2009 From: kshmendra2005 at yahoo.com (Kshmendra Kaul) Date: Sun, 28 Jun 2009 04:57:57 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Reader-list] "A lost generation in Jammu's refugee camps" By Anju Munshi Message-ID: <249779.34559.qm@web57203.mail.re3.yahoo.com> "A lost generation in Jammu's refugee camps"  By Anju Munshi   (For 19 years, Kashmiri Pandits living in refugee camps in Jammu have seen no change in their poor living conditions. Riddled by disease, crammed into one-room tenements, and rendered unemployable by poor education and lack of employment opportunities, a whole generation has grown up angry, depressed and alienated)   A small pale face with hollow eyes greets me at the entrance to Purkhoo camp in Jammu. The child looks unkempt, with a sallow complexion and a gaze that is forlorn and distant. The glow that one associates with childhood is missing. As my eyes travel around I see a group of young children, some just sitting and staring vacantly, others queuing up in a rush in front of a toilet with their mothers, waiting for their turn. Further on there is a squalid hutment with a dirty drainage tank in the middle with some toddlers playing around it, and beyond that, an open latrine with millions of flies swarming in circles. You feel your heart is sinking into a quicksand and the more you fight, the deeper you go in.     Since 1990 more than 4 lakh men, women and children targeted by terrorist violence have fled their homes in Kashmir. Nearly 1.8 lakh of this internally displaced population stays in 11 camps in and around Jammu city. Away from their natural habitat, the children of these migrants have been living in alien conditions with their parents and dying of diseases like summer diarrhoea, viral fevers, diabetes, snakebites and heat stroke. A large number of children have also been rendered orphans and live with the trauma of their parents’ violent deaths. They suffer from guilt feelings because they survived while their loved ones perished. Many of them had become withdrawn and even violent. To the families who have lost their homes and all their possessions, and who are living in camps with their children for the last 19 years, the government gives an allowance of Rs 2400 and a ration of nine kilos of rice and one kilo of sugar for each member per month.      Over 19 long years the situation of these people has remained the same. The dole is the same though the children have grown into young adults and a new crop of children is being introduced to this kind of life. Frustration, low self-esteem and lack of jobs in the absence of little or no qualification is driving this generation of young adults towards despair and depression, creating psychological problems for them and impairing their mental health. Problems of drug abuse and sexual violence in the camps are not unheard of.     “There is depression and anger in the young generation that makes them resort to anti-social activities. In addition to this, the paltry amount is not enough for these migrants’ families to provide their children good education and good health,” says Prof K N Pandita, a long time human rights activist and general secretary of the Jammu based Friends of Kashmir International. Dr Apurva Kotru from the Jammu Medical Institute agrees. “The life in camp is a breeding ground for all negative activities for the holed up children, impairing their personalities. They are facing severe emotional and behavioural problems in the form of depression, anxiety, aggression, and sleeplessness.” He adds that “the diet pattern of the community has undergone a sea change. These young children look emaciated and many have retarded growth problems and complain of lethargy.” The Kashmiri community is mainly non-vegetarian and is fond of a protein based diet that comprises meat, fish, vegetable stews, yoghurt and rice. Owing to the paltry allowance they receive from the government, they are unable to provide nourishing diets for their children. Unless some drastic remedial measures are implemented on a war footing, we run the risk of losing a part of this generation. “Underfed children will not only perform poorly in studies, but there is also the high probability of incidence of disease and early death,” says Dr Girija Kak who is associated with the state hospital in Jammu and who has personally been treating children from the camps.    Raghav, a 14-year-old school dropout was playing cards at home by himself while his mother was cooking lunch for the family in the same room. Asked why he did not go to school along with his friends, he said, “I don’t like it there. It is hot and I feel very sleepy. They make us sit on the floor and I get tired.” His mother Bina Kaul said that he often complains of headaches and nausea and has a poor appetite. A visit to the doctor revealed that he suffered from anxiety and attention deficit disorder, coupled with vitamin deficiency. Raghav lost his father during the relocation to the camps from the valley; he died of a heat stroke. Eleven-year-old Jharna has arthritis; it started with her fingers getting locked, and she now has difficulty writing and walking. Vikas, who is 15, suffers from juvenile diabetes.   “Every time the issue of the plight of the Kashmiri Pandits has been raised, the Union and state governments are quick to point out the 'assistance' provided to the 'migrants'”, says Ashok Raina, father of two schoolgoing children in the Mishriwallan camp. The camp dwellers have to put up with humidity, with cold rooms in winter and hot rooms in summer, as four or more persons are crammed into one room. Families sit, eat and sleep in a single room. The children have not been able to grow up naturally and normally with their friends in an open environment with space to play in. “Cramped up in one single room/ hutment, with one parent smoking, inadequate ventilation, fumes from kerosene stoves adds to the problems of indoor air pollution that the children are subject to,” says Dr Kak.    CRY (Children Rights and You), a non-government organisation, conducted a survey in 2007 of one of the largest displaced Kashmiri Hindu migrant camps in Purkhoo, which is about 13 km southwest of Jammu city. The study was confined to children below the age of 18 years belonging to displaced migrant families. The report found ‘very poor stability in the supply of drinking water in displaced migrants’ camps, which runs for one hour daily and is grossly insufficient to meet daily requirements. Add to this the regular power cuts that range from nine to 12 hours every day and make life intolerable in summer and during the rainy season.     Group latrines constructed and maintained by Sulabh International are faulty; in Purkhoo camp there are 10 such latrines, which are improperly constructed causing leakages which flow into the open drainage system causing unhygienic conditions that impact adversely on the health of the inhabitants. Almost half the camp households do not have a bath or shower in their dwelling; as a result, skin disorders like eczema, bacterial diarrhoeas, water borne hepatitis etc are common. ‘The incidence of body lice was revealed by 36.52% of the children and almost 42.86% and 57.14% suffered from skin infections and relapsing fever respectively’ says the CRY report.   Rita Kaul, a general physician who is attached to the Mishriwallan camp, says that one of the major health problems reported among children is diarrhoea in summer due to the poor quality of drinking water and soaring temperatures. The mental trauma and disturbance caused by displacement has seen an increase in diabetes among elders of the Kashmiri Hindu community. ‘What is ironical is that the children of the displaced community were no exceptions to this and 49.13% of the children were suffering from diabetes due to tensions, idleness and less mobility and 48.15 % from anaemia. Prevalence of malnutrition, exposure to sub-nutritional diet and experience of epidemic of nutritional related diseases were reported by 45.81%, 42.86% and 11.33% of the children respectively’, CRY reports.      Basic medical facilities are supposed to be available within the camps, provided by one trained medical doctor. But most of the time this help is not available. Additional and regular health checks for the children are not conducted and there are no immunisation records. The CRY report found that all the children were vaccinated against diseases like diphtheria, whooping cough, tetanus and polio, but none of them was vaccinated against hepatitis, mumps, etc. Though more than three-fourths of the children were desirous of getting those vaccinations, the reasons cited for not providing them was that they were too expensive or not available.    Life in the camps takes a particularly heavy toll of children. There are schools but they are poorly equipped. “There are enough teachers, but overcrowded classes, not enough chairs and tables, no proper supplies like blackboards, chalks, laboratories, no support structure like drinking water, lavatories, recreation centres, libraries etc. Parents prefer teaching them at home and make them appear for their boards privately,” says Chaman Lal, who looks after the management of the Muthi camp.     Inder Kishen, now 29, is an example of the tragedy of the younger residents. He left Vichar Nag, a small township on the outskirts of Srinagar soon after fundamentalist terror hit the valley in 1990. His education came to an abrupt end and he has been unable to get a job. His bitterness is evident. “We have been ruined,” he says referring to the many young people like him who had to abandon their education and struggle for a livelihood to support their families. The state government has not provided jobs for them. “In 1996, the state government made 40,000 to 50,000 new appointments in state services but not even 100 jobs went to the displaced Kashmiri Hindus,” says Prof K N Pandita.      According to a report by the Internal Displacement Monitoring Centre (IDMC), 10 primary schools and three high schools have been built for migrant children. “Who is to tell them that 10 primary schools and three high schools cannot meet the needs of 250,000 people?” retorts Madan Ogra, a senior citizens who has been staying in the Purkhoo camp since 1991.       Dr K L Chowdhury, an activist and a doctor by profession, says that no international help of any kind is available in the camps. Some organisations have been in the news for delivering assistance to J&K, but Dr Chowdhury categorically states that “there have been reports of promises by various groups for providing nutritional, educational, health support as well as vocational training, career counselling sessions and job placement support, but in reality nobody has come to the camps of Muthi, Purkhoo or Mishriwallan in Jammu.” He says that there is a strong need for NGOs and counsellors to visit the camps.     The Borderless World Foundation (BWF), a non-government organisation based in Pune, Maharasthra, has decided to intervene positively in a programme called Basera-e-Tabassum (Abode of Smiles). Two of its members, Tanvir Rifatmir and Adhik, volunteered to help the children orphaned during militancy in the border areas of Kashmir. Adhik, who visited the camps in Jammu, was aghast at the situation there and said that while “there are many organisations working for Kashmir, in my so many years of experience I have not seen even one organisation working in the camps.”       Dr Falendra Kumar Sudan who is associated with the University of Jammu and was also involved in the study carried out by CRY, says that “the condition of the children in the camps is appalling.” He says he volunteered to help, but faced resistance. “The inmates were resistant to all our efforts to reach out as they had lost all hope and trust and were cynical in their approach.” When the inmates were asked about this, Ashok Raina from Muthi camp said, “It’s not that we are trying to misrepresent anything; it's just that we need privacy around a personal issue now; we want to create a secure boundary for ourselves and our children in order to feel safe and not get exploited.”     Probably the parents have realised the futility of seeking help from the state and individual organisations and have taken it upon themselves to be small time providers for their children, using whatever meagre resources they have, so that when their children grow up they have at least some good memories of an otherwise deprived childhood.    (Anju Munshi is an activist from Kashmir and writes on conflict displacement, especially in connection with the state of J&K. She contributes regularly to several major newspapers)      InfoChange News & Features, June 2009    http://infochangeindia.org/200906227794/Children/Features/A-lost-generation-in-Jammu-s-refugee-camps.html From 2tahamehmood at googlemail.com Sun Jun 28 22:24:55 2009 From: 2tahamehmood at googlemail.com (Taha Mehmood) Date: Sun, 28 Jun 2009 17:54:55 +0100 Subject: [Reader-list] Twitter in Iran: genuine or orchestrated? Message-ID: <65be9bf40906280954t6f3927deq412468673f5914b2@mail.gmail.com> http://www.thehoot.org/web/home/story.php?storyid=3923&mod=1&pg=1§ionId=12&valid=true Twitter in Iran: genuine or orchestrated? “I narrowed it down to a handful of people who have accounted for 30,000 Iran related tweets in the past few days.” THE HOOT DESK looks at web sources which suggest that the Twitter revolution in Iran is manufactured outside. Pix: the defeated candidate. Posted Saturday, Jun 20 01:46:28, 2009 We’ve been reading non-stop about how Twitter is lending itself to a popular uprising against the election results in Iran. The US media in particular has been playing up the story and the State Department has begun to do its bit to propagate this ‘revolution.’ “Twitter delays maintenance amid online revolution” said an AFP story. It went on to say “The Obama administration took the unusual step of asking Twitter to delay a planned maintenance outage because of the social blogging site's use as a communications tool by Iranians following their disputed election, a senior official said Tuesday. The request highlighted the administration's Web-savvy ways and the power of social networks such as Twitter and Facebook in organizing protests over the election results in the face of a ban by Iranian authorities on other media.” The power of social networks in organizing protests is good stuff to highlight, but who exactly is organizing the protests? People in Iran or people elsewhere who think President Mahmoud Ahmadinejad should have been defeated? Muslim Information Center, a Sri Lanka based NGO, drew attention in the SouthAsian region to the results of some digging into the Twitter ‘revolution’ published on the site called chartingstocks. “Were these legitimate Iranian people or the works of a propaganda machine? I became curious and decided to investigate the origins of the information. In doing so, I narrowed it down to a handful of people who have accounted for 30,000 Iran related tweets in the past few days. Each of them had some striking similarities - 1. They each created their twitter accounts on Saturday June 13th. 2. Each had extremely high number of Tweets since creating their profiles. 3. “IranElection” was each of their most popular keyword 4. With some very small exceptions, each were posting in ENGLISH. 5. Half of them had the exact same profile photo 6. Each had thousands of followers, with only a few friends. Most of their friends were EACH OTHER. Why were these tweets in English? Why were all of these profiles OBSESSED with Iran? It became obvious that this was the work of a team of people with an interest in destabilizing Iran. The profiles are phonies and were created with the sole intention of destabilizing Iran and effecting public opinion as to the legitimacy of Iran’s election. I narrowed the spammers down to three of the most persistent – @StopAhmadi @IranRiggedElect @Change_For_ Iran I decided to do a google search for 2 of the 3 – @StopAhmadi and @IranRiggedElect. The first page to come up was JPost (Jerusalem Post) which is a right wing newspaper pro-Israeli newspaper. JPost actually ran a story about 3 people “who joined the social network mere hours ago have already amassed thousands of followers.” Why would a news organization post a story about 3 people who JUST JOINED TWITTER hours earlier? Is that newsworthy? Jpost was the first (and only to my knowledge) major news source that mentioned these 3 spammers. The fact that JPost promoted these three Twitterers who went on the be the source of the IranElection Twitter bombardment is, unfortunately, evidence that this was an Israeli propaganda campaign against Iran. I must admit that I had my suspiscions. After all, Que Bono? (latin for “Who Benefits). There’s no question that Israel perceives Iran as an enemy, more so than any other nation. Destabilizing the country would benefit them.” Meanwhile the site called BoingBoing.net published a cyberwar guide to the Iran elections. “The purpose of this guide is to help you participate constructively in the Iranian election protests through Twitter.” One of the points in the guide: “Help cover the bloggers: change your twitter settings so that your location is TEHRAN and your time zone is GMT +3.30. Security forces are hunting for bloggers using location and timezone searches. If we all become 'Iranians' it becomes much harder to find them.” The point is, if all sorts of people are becoming Iranians, how do we know how many Iranians are genuinely protesting the election results through Twitter? From shuddha at sarai.net Mon Jun 29 01:28:34 2009 From: shuddha at sarai.net (Shuddhabrata Sengupta) Date: Mon, 29 Jun 2009 01:28:34 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Twitter in Iran: genuine or orchestrated? In-Reply-To: <65be9bf40906280954t6f3927deq412468673f5914b2@mail.gmail.com> References: <65be9bf40906280954t6f3927deq412468673f5914b2@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <540E1388-02CE-4425-ACB7-2FAA106E54A0@sarai.net> Dear Taha, Thank you for posting the link from the Hoot (which quoted the text that appeared on the Charting Stocks Web Site). While it is not impossible that there may be some external elements playing in the complex Iranian situation as it unfolds, it may be more than a little presumptuous to suggest that what is happening in Iran is a result of a 'Israeli' conspiracy. The millions who have marched in Tehran and other Iranian cities cannot all have been Mossad puppets. If Mossad had more than two million agents on the ground in Iran then Iran would have become an Israeli client state a very long time ago. Things would not have to wait for a hotly contested election. But, it might just be that the hardliners on the Israeli right might be less than comfortable with Ahmedinijad's defeat. The official Israeli state response to the events in Iran has persistently had a single line - 'It makes no difference whether the centre of power lies with Ahmedinijad or with Moussavi' . But interestingly, many on the Isreali right (and their allies in the American Neoconservative right) are far more comfortable with the idea of an Ahmedinijad victory. The irresponsible, war-mongering and anti-semitic diatribes of Ahmedinijad are far more suitable for the whipping up of an Anti-Iran sentiment (in Israel and the USA and elsewhere) than any leadership that actually reflected the will of the majority of the Iranian people to engage responsibly with the world. I am posting below two links to texts that show Israeli intelligence hawks and Right Wing Neoconservative preferences (including the infamous Daniel Pipes) for an Ahmedinijad victory. The first link is from the Haaretz, a moderate left mainstream Israeli paper, no friend of the Israeli right, that it quotes Ephraim Halevy, former Mossad Chief is, I think, significant. -------------------- 1. Ahmadinejad win actually preferable for Israel By Amos Harel and Avi Issacharoff, Haaretz Correspondent Haaretz, 14th June, 2009 http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/1092587.html "..paradoxically, it seems that from Israel's point of view the victory of incumbent President Mahmoud Ahmadinejad is actually preferable. Not only because "better the devil you know," but because the victory of the pro-reform candidate will paste an attractive mask on the face of Iranian nuclear ambitions... ... Ahmadinejad, with his Holocaust denial and his long series of provocations, drew most of the attention, but apparently had less influence on the nuclear program. There are even senior members of the Israeli defense establishment who share the public stance of former Mossad chief Ephraim Halevy, who claimed that the Iranian president's behavior, perceived in the West as quasi-lunatic, advanced Israel's security interests. " 2. Neocons for Ahmadinejad By Daniel Luban http://www.ips.org/blog/jimlobe/?p=256 “I’m sometimes asked who I would vote for if I were enfranchised in this election, and I think that, with due hesitance, I would vote for Ahmadinejad,” Pipes said. The reason, Pipes went on, is that he would “prefer to have an enemy who’s forthright and obvious, who wakes people up with his outlandish statements.” Although it is rather remarkable to see a prominent neoconservative admit this in public, it’s clear that many Iran hawks in America and Israel are similarly hoping for an Ahmadinejad victory next week. After all, the Iranian president’s outlandish statements have been a propaganda gold mine for those pushing military action against Tehran, and no warmongering op-ed would be complete without a ritualistic invocation of his (mistranslated) call to “wipe Israel off the map”. At last month’s AIPAC conference, Ahmadinejad was the undisputed star of the show; large glossy photos of him touring nuclear facilities in a lab coat were distributed to every conference- goer, and the largely geriatric audience was bludgeoned into a state of terror with constant juxtapositions of Hitler and Ahmadinejad, Auschwitz and Natanz. An alien who descended on the conference might be forgiven for thinking that Ahmadinejad was president of Israel or the U.S. rather than Iran, since he was far more discussed and displayed than Benjamin Netanyahu, Avigdor Lieberman, or Barack Obama." ---------------------- Interestingly, 'Charting Stocks' (www.chartingstocks.net) is a web sites that offers economic and financial analysis for people wishing to park their money in different corners of the global economy. 'Facilities' like Charting Stocks offer 'Risk Analysis' in order to guide people to invest or not invest in 'economies' considered 'risky' or 'risk free'. Sometimes, the distance between 'guidance on risk and risk avoidance' and engineering situations in different countries in order to create situations that can then be matched to 'predictions' is an activity that many such facilities undertake. Iran today means a lot of money for a lot of people. This is despite, and in some cases because of the US sanctions. Because US companies cannot directly engage with Iran, there is a huge industry that a) undertakes transactions in Iran (often at a considerably higher price) in goods that would normally be traded with the US and b) offering an indirect route for the actuality of Iran-US and indeed Iran-Israel trade that needs to stay invisible. Let us never forget that the Reagan administration funded its operations in Nicaragua with money that came from selling arms to the Islamic Republic of Iran (when Ayatollah Khomeini was in power) through covert Israeli channels. Despite what might be said in public, and contrary to appearances, there are many entities (corporations and agencies) in many different (and suprising) parts of the world that have a vested interest in the continuity of the current regime in Iran. Indicating that the current regime is stable is very good value for a lot of investments. These investments could come from many places, from Russia, from China, from the European Union states, from Japan, even the US. If you take a look even at a list of Indian or India linked companies that do business with Iran currently, you will find a list of the golden hordes - Tata, Essar, Reliance Petrochemicals, ONGC Videsh. There is a lot at stake here, and many powerful interests will want the regime in Iran to stay (like in Burma) in power, come what may. Ahmedinijad, with his populism, with his messianic, slightly doltish mystical wooliness hides a regime grown fat on corruption, influence peddling, and sadism, and perhaps 'Charting Stocks' or whoever runs it, has hedged their bets with him. Here, for instance, is a report about how corporations such as Nokia and Siemens sold surveillance technology ('deep packet inspection' ) to the Iranian regime to help it control and monitor emails and telecom networks used by ordinary Iranian citizens in an unprecedentedly invasive manner. Nokia and Siemens stocks are closely linked to the Iranian regime's ability to control all manner of digital dissent, including twitter. If this is the case, it would make sense for people to pool identities and constantly change identities in order to protect themselves. The realities hinted at by the 'Charting Stock' article may actually point to methods evolved by people on the ground to protect their identities while communicating with the outside world (hence the use of English). Finally, let me forward a link in direct response to the Hoot quotation of the Charting Stocks story. Here is a rebuttal, for whatever it is worth, from the Jerusalem Times itself. Hope to keep the discussion on Iran going. best Shuddha ----------------- Is JPost behind the 'Iranian Twitter Revolution'? By RICKY BEN-DAVID AND RACHEL GEIZHALS The Jerusalem Post's routine online coverage of events in Iran has been cited as an ostensible key element behind the Iranian "Twitter Revolution," and characterized as being part of a purported Israeli conspiracy to stoke unrest in the Islamic republic. In an online article entitled "Proof: Israeli Effort to Destabilize Iran Via Twitter" published on the Charting Stocks Web site, the unnamed writer charges: "right-wing Israeli interests are engaged in an all out Twitter attack with hopes of delegitimizing the Iranian election and causing political instability within Iran." The "proof" cited was an online entry published on Sunday on the Post's "The Persian Abyss" blog, in which three very active Iranian Twitterers, whose tweets are still widely circulated, were mentioned as part of an online documentation of Iranians' reaction to the election results on social media outlets [their usernames were later taken down to protect them]. The article went on: "JPost, a major news organization, promoted these three Twitterers who went on to be the source of the IranElection Twitter bombardment. Why is JPost so concerned about Iranian students all of a sudden (which these spammers claim to be)? I must admit that I had my suspicions. After all, Que Bono? (who benefits)." The writer allows that he does not think that the violence in Iran is a "Jewish conspiracy" because he is "not an anti-semite" and even claims that he is "half-Jewish." Instead he maintains that "these are the workings of the extreme right-wing of Israeli politics" since "Israel perceives Iran as an enemy, more so than any other nation." "Needless to say, our coverage of events in Iran is guided solely by professional journalistic considerations," said the managing editor of The Jerusalem Post's Web site, www.jpost.com, Shani Rosenfelder. Conspiracy theorists may be hard to convince, but it is Iran's young, educated pro-Mousavi supporters who have turned their bitter disappointment at the results of the presidential elections into a force to be reckoned with on the micro-blogging site Twitter. As one 'Facebooker' put it (before Facebook was blocked): "This is not the will of the Iranian people; they are mostly in shock or despair, and the braver ones are being mercilessly beaten on the streets." Using 'tweets' of 140 characters or less, Iran-based Twitterers have circulated reports at breakneck speed of the violence being used against protesters in the streets of Iran to millions worldwide, complete with video and photo evidence of government forces firing indiscriminately into crowds, beating people with batons and raiding student dormitories. Despite the Iranian regime's efforts to block Internet access - and especially the streaming of photos and videos of the violence surrounding the protests - by decreasing the bandwidth, effectively slowing down online access to a frustrating level, tech-savvy Iranians have repeatedly found ways to bypass official restrictions using proxy sites that reroute Iran-based messages to post on Twitter. The site has become the new, as-yet-foolproof tool used by pro- reformist Iranians to circulate real-time accounts of the suppression taking place around them. Twitterers have also used the site to mobilize people for rallies in Iran and to announce protests near Iranian embassies around the world. "Twitter is the only method of communication they haven't found a way to mess with," one Iranian, who preferred to remain anonymous, told The Jerusalem Post by e-mail. "They don't understand, but average folks are very technologically competent. Most of the people protesting are in their twenties. It was a big miscalculation on the government's part." On Tuesday, Iran state TV confirmed that seven people were killed in clashes with anti-riot police and the basij (Iran's volunteer-based paramilitary force) but unofficial reports, especially from Iranian Twitterers, put the number at close to 25. That figure has not been confirmed by the mainstream media, thus many have dismissed information coming in from Twitter as unreliable and unverifiable. And while "unverifiable" may be an accurate description for now, many accounts from Iran's Twitterers have turned out to be true. One important example includes several Twitter reports on Sunday that government forces were heard speaking Arabic, raising suspicions that Hizbullah and Hamas reinforcements have been brought in. This item was only available in the mainstream media on Wednesday, three days later; a correspondent for The Jerusalem Post in Teheran reported first-hand allegations of Hamas involvement overnight Tuesday. Furthermore, the names of five students at Teheran University killed on Monday night were released by Twitter users overnight Tuesday, along with messages of despair and condolences. News services have yet to release that information although, again, the Post's reporter in Teheran included the names in her report on the front page of Wednesday's paper. "We used to be customers of the media," said Dr. Yair Amichai- Hamburger, director of the Research Center for Internet Psychology at Sammy Ofer School of Communications at the Herzliya Interdisciplinary Center. "Now we produce the media." Regular, everyday people have become journalists and social activists, he added, and a group of people with a shared interest can form a small but influential army. This allows the ability for real, dynamic opposition that is nearly impossible to suppress, even in a dictatorship like Iran, Amichai-Hamburger said. Twitter in particular works well for such communication because it is short, simple and instant. Amichai-Hamburger explained that Twitter's immediateness escalates users' emotions, because people who are always online and always connected are always involved. "It's not like reading the news," explained Amichai-Hamburger. "You are in the news." The volume and potency of the information circulated on Twitter has become so powerful that Iranian Twitterers have pleaded with their followers not to retweet (forward) their messages using their usernames, as Iranian forces have confiscated computers, laptops and cellphones, effectively putting their lives at risk. Twitterers have also reported that there have been arrests following wide retweets of their details, a development confirmed on Wednesday by international news services. Iranian Twitterers have also been waging an online war against the regime by promoting sites that overload the Web sites of prominent regime figures, including President Mahmoud Ahmadinejad and Supreme Leader Ali Khameini. Pro-government Web sites such as the semiofficial Fars News and Raja news have also been targeted. The Twitter effect has not escaped the Obama administration. On Monday, the State Department intervened to put off a scheduled maintenance of the site which would have taken down Twitter for 90 minutes on Monday at 21:45 p.m. Pacific time, 9:15 a.m. in Iran, a crucial time for Iranians. Officials asked Twitter to postpone the downtime to coincide with the middle of the night in Iran, and the request was honored. On 28-Jun-09, at 10:24 PM, Taha Mehmood wrote: Shuddhabrata Sengupta The Sarai Programme at CSDS Raqs Media Collective shuddha at sarai.net www.sarai.net www.raqsmediacollective.net From shuddha at sarai.net Mon Jun 29 03:55:23 2009 From: shuddha at sarai.net (Shuddhabrata Sengupta) Date: Mon, 29 Jun 2009 03:55:23 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Iran: Inquilab Zindabad? Message-ID: <70131589-7F8B-400B-86E3-D109D8DCCA6E@sarai.net> Dear All, I have been thinking about Iran constantly in the past two weeks or so. And I thought I would share with all of you something that I wrote today. I hope that it can contribute to the discussion on the situation in Iran on this list, and elsewhere. Please feel free to forward this to as many people as you know. regards Shuddha =================== Iran: Inquilab Zindabad? (apologies for cross posting on Kafila.org) Once upon a time, only a hundred or so years ago, and earlier, Iranians were our neighbours. Many were friends, relatives - uncles, grandparents, ancestors, some were husbands, wives and lovers. And cities like Delhi, Lucknow, Murshidabad and Hyderabad spoke Persian better than they spoke English, or even Hindi. The distance from Tehran and Isfahan to Delhi, Lucknow and Lahore, or across the water from Bandar Abbas to Bombay or Karachi, in miles and in the imagination, seemed less than what we can even begin to understand today. The Bengal renaissance had one of its points of origin in a Persian broadsheet called Mirat ul Akhbar published by Ram Mohan Roy in Calcutta. The first Iranian film and the last 'Irani' restaurant both have their origins in Bombay. The Sabke-Hindi, or the 'Indian Style' continued to adorn the more ornate fringes of Persian poetry in Iran. The miniatures painted in the ateliers of Delhi and Agra owed a great deal to the paints, brushes, colours and visions of visiting masters from Tabriz. The sitar and the sarod came from Iran, and stayed on. We shared jokes and stories, poets, prophets and pranksters, wine and spices, surnames (Kirmani, Rizvi, Mashadi, Yazdi) and clan histories, heresies and wisdom and a thousand other things that neighbours, friends, cousins and lovers share. Then came another time, closer to our times, and Iranians were once again friends, some were comrades, in colleges and universities in Aligarh, Delhi, Pune and Bangalore. They were the best footballers in Aligarh, the best dancers in Pune, they told the wildest jokes in Delhi, some of them were poets, some were athletes, some were fops, others saw themselves as revolutionaries. In the early and mid eighties of the last century, thousands of Iranians, fugitives from the tightening madness of the Islamic Republic (like their predecessors, fugitives from the lunacy of the Shah) came to India for respite. If you listen to Iranians who once lived in Delhi and Aligarh, and are now scattered across the world in Toronto, Berlin, Paris, Stockholm, Melbourne and Isfahan, they tell you a little known, or forgotten, story of betrayal. Of how the Iranian theocracy's spies, (exactly like the Shah's hated SAVAK) aided and abetted by Indian intelligence agents, harassed and intimidated hundreds of Iranian students and exiles in india. Some committed suicide.Others were blackmailed into returning in the name of their families, and many were imprisoned immediately, or sent to die at the front of a nasty war. Some perished in Tehran's notorious Evin prison. Others, those who could resist going back to Iran, soon had to leave India, bitter and saddened to leave the cities that to them felt closest to home. The first, and only 'revolution' I encountered as a child was born and betrayed in Iran. I was eleven years old in 1979, when the Shah of Iran was deposed, and I can still recall vividly, the elation I saw in blurred radio-photo images in newspapers, as I scanned them in Delhi. The streets of Tehran, to my eleven year old imagination, were the most thrilling place to be. It seemed to me, that young people, not more than ten to twelve years older than me, people who could have been my elder brothers and sisters, were changing history. The long shadow of Khomeini's beard, a senseless war between a despotic regime in Iraq and the Iranian theocracy, and the betrayal of the 1979 revolution by the regime that became the Islamic Republic of Iran taught me to understand, at a fairly young age, that the withering and atrophying of ideals can be the cruellest gift that history holds out to those who hold dreams dear. Ever since then, I have followed what happens to people in Iran as one would the fortunes of close relatives cut off by history. I have always dreamed of going to Tehran and Isfahan, tried to learn Persian, tried to follow the chaotic, joyous, anarchic and melancholic edges of Persian cyberspace, tried, whenever possible to know and learn more about Iran, and tried my very best to avoid the gushing Iranophilia ('No, not all Iranian films are fantastic, many are boring, formulaic and predictable') that I know is as irritating to intelligent Iranians as gushing Indophilia is to me. Today, as ever before, the millions of people on the streets of Tehran, Isfahan, Tabriz, Mashhad and elsewhere who up have risen up against the recent 'stolen election' have shown the world the face of an Iran that hardly anyone knew, or at least one that many preferred not to know. This is an Iran that I have tried to know, at a distance, from Delhi, for a while. I have followed it in the testaments of Iranian exiles and Iranian dissidents like Akbar Ganji and Shirin Ebadi and thousans of others, imprisoned, tortured, killed, blackmailed and blacklisted, in the statements of anonymous and underground and lesser known Anarchist, Communist and Socialist Iranians, Iranian feminists, Iranian workers, Iranian civil rights activists, Iranian bloggers, Iranians both religious and non- religious who no longer believe that the Islamic Republic's regime means anything to them, Iranian filmmakers, artists, poets, writers, philosophers, scientists and doctors, Iranian gay and lesbian activists, ordinary, decent, hard working, god fearing, sceptical and apolotical Iranians who just want to be left in peace and spared the depradations of a regime grown fat on the lard of corruption, priviledge and hypocrisy. Today, millions of these people, men, women, children, older people, pensioners, war veterans, former Islamists, believers and non-believers, are showing us that they, and not the Khamenei-Ahmedinijad cartel will write the contemporary history of Iran. Today, many of the protestors in Tehran, are taking to the streets with placards that carry poems and aphorisms taken from Iran's rich literary heritage. A poem, by the much loved Iranian poet Ahmed Shamlou, could be read as a poetic allegory for the regime presided over by Khamenei and Ahmedinijad. I am sure it is being read as that today on the streets of Tehran. The Cul-de-Sac "They smell your breath lest you have said; I love you They smell your heart These are strange times, my dear They flog love at the roadblock Let's hide love in the larder In this crooked blind alley, as the chill descends they feed fires with logs of song and poetry Hazard not a thought These are strange times, my dear The man who knocks at your door in the noon of the night has come to kill the light Let's hide light in the larder There, butchers are posted in passageways with bloody chopping blocks and cleavers: These are strange times, my dear They chop smiles off lips and songs off the mouth Let's hide joy in the larder Canaries barbecued on the flames of lilies and jasmines, These are strange times, my dear Satan, drunk on victory squats at the feast of our undoing, Let's hide God in the larder." At the same time as the streets of Tehran construct their defiance with silence and the reading of poems during the day and the rooftops of Tehran articulate their anger with slogans that invoke both the greatness of god and the fervent desire for 'death to the dictatorship' , we in India are sitting amidst the rising stench of a profound, sullen, stunned about Iran. We have turned our back on our neighbours, our friends, our sometime cousins. We have betrayed, and are continuing to betray those who dream of an ordinary, decent, non-theocratic, open society in Iran, where people will not be harassed for showing the hair on their heads, or jailed for reading certain books or agitating for a fair wage, or sentenced to death for being in love with a person of a certain gender. We are failing to realize that the victory of the forces opposed to the Ahmedinijad clique represent a profound transformation in the Muslim world, where the automatic call to 'politics by prerformed piety' is no longer working. This could well be the begining of the end of Islamic fundamentalism, and a return to a broad based, class based, secular-democractic politics in the Islamicate world, just as the Khomeinist putsch signalled the glamorous inauguration of contemporary Islamic Fundamentalism in the world and the derailing of the Iranian revolution against the tyranny of the Shah by a fascist clerical clique. Mir Hussain Moussavi, the challenger to Ahmedinijad, may well have been associated with the establishment of the Islamic Republic (as prime minister) in the early years of the Iran Iraq war, but his long exile and distance from politics following his removal from power, may have either led him to realize that the regime as it exists is unredeemable, or, he may be carried by forces that emanate from the popular hatred of the Islamist regime that may even be beyond his control. Not all those who are arrayed in the anti-Ahmedinijad faction are angels in waiting. Prominent amongst them is the corrupt and opportunist Ali Akbar Rafsanjani, whose opposition to Ahmedinijad has less to do with his love of liberty and more to do with his insatiable lust for power. He derailed the revolution before and handed it on a platter to the Islamists, he may derail the revolution again, and hand it on a platter to other vested interests. Whatever be the case, there can be no mistaking the fact that the real movers of history at present are neither Moussavi, nor Rafsanjani, nor Ahemdinijad or Khamenei. History is being made, not by leaders and candidates, by Ayatollahs and clerics, but by ordinary people gathering in their millions.Their resistance may have begun as a protest from within the Moussavi camp against electoral fraud, but it has rapidly become far more generalized. Today, the protests are about things much greater than a stolen election alone, they are about the fundamental directions that politics, culture and society will take in iran today. Even if the Khamenei-Ahmedinijad clique wins the day with repression and violence, it will have lost the night. Iran by night will continue to resonate with anger and rage. The dreams dreamt in Tehran will infect the nightmares of the Supreme Leader. That the government of India, which has to protect its cynical interests in the realpolitik of the region should shake hands with the hated Ahmedinijad in Moscow, under the tutelage of (Ras)Putin is not surprising (after all they also cosy up to the junta in Rangoon for the same reason). That there should be nervousness and anxiety in the corridors of Tata Steel, Essar, Reliance Petrochemicals and ONGC Videsh (each with substantial investments in Iran garnered by schmoozing with the Ahmedinijad-Khamenei cartel) is not in itself surprising. That the moribund and pathetic sycophancy of the so- called Communist Party of India (Marxist), which functioned, (while it functioned), as the front office of the Iranian regime in India (how many more dead communists and leftists in Iran would it have taken for the CPI(M) to recognize the fascism of Khomeini-Khameini- Ahmedinijad? ) should have rendered it speechless in the face of the current developments is not surprising. That the tired hacks of the Urdu press should provide apologies for clerical-klepto-fascism in iran is not surprising. While none of this is surprising, it is nevertheless, deeply, profoundly saddening. Remember the pious sloganeering of 'Hands off Iran' which exercised the Karats and the Bardhans, and even the more effete and niche apparatchiki of student Maoism in JNU and elsewhere, only last year? Iran was suddenly the most important issue in Indian politics, it appeared that how India's foreign policy oriented oneself towards Iran's nuclear ambitions could even make or break governments in India. Where are those people who shouted 'Hands off Iran'? Where are they now, when the people of Iran need some real solidarity, and not the masquerade of 'anti-Imperialism' by proxy that our 'radical' mob- masters are so good at. Where are they now, when strong and vocal expressions of support for freedom and democracy in Iran could make a real difference? I have already heard some snide remarks and whispers (which have attempted to relieve the obscenity of the stunning silence in India regarding Iran) about how the protests in Iran are all engineered, about how they are all 'elitist elements' and about how Ahmedinijad needs all the support he can get from 'people like us'. If this is indeed the case, how can one explain the following statement of 23rd June, put out by militant Industrial workers (by no means the 'velvet revolutionaries' of the elite enclaves of North Tehran). And there are many more. "...We workers, under the present conditions, when social protests have taken the form of a mass and a huge movement has come on the scene to achieve its demands, see it as our right to put forward the demands of fellow workers and to raise our banner. These demands are as follows: 1. Immediate increase in the minimum wage to over 1 million tomans [$1010] a month. 2. An end to temporary contracts and new forms of work contracts. 3. The disbanding of the Labour House and the Islamic Labour Councils as government organisations in the factories and workshops, and the setting up of shoras [councils] and other workers’ organisations independent from the government. 4. Immediate payment of workers’ unpaid wages without any excuses. 5. An end to laying-off workers and payment of adequate unemployment insurance to all unemployed workers. 6. The immediate release of all political prisoners including the workers arrested on May Day, Jafar Azimzadeh, Gholamreza Khani, Said Yuzi, Said Rostami, Mehdi Farahi-Shandiz, Kaveh Mozafari, Mansour Osanloo and Ebrahim Madadi, and an end to surveillance and harassment of workers and labour leaders. 7. The right to strike, protest, assemble and the freedom of speech and the press are the workers’ absolute right. 8. An end to sexual discrimination, child labour and the sacking of foreign workers. Workers! Today we have a duty to intervene, to pose our demands independently and by relying on our own united strength, together with other sections of society, to work towards achieving our human rights. The Free Trade Union of Iranian Workers [ See - http://hopinewsfromiran.wordpress.com/2009/06/24/message-from- iranian-workers-free-trade-union/ ] To this statement could be added calls to strike by workers in the Khodro Automobile Plant, of Bus Drivers and Transport Workers, of Workers in the Oil Industry and even of the lower echelons of the bureaucracy. These voices will only grow. Each of these calls have led to intimidation by the Basij, the gangs of Islamist thugs maintained by the state, even as regular units of the police, army and even some sections of the elite Revolutionary Guards seem reluctant to use force against striking and demonstrating people. The Basij have been particularly brutal with young women, who are seen as leading protests and especially vocal in their opposition to the repression unleashed by the regime. The death of Neda Agha Soltan, a 26 year old student of Islamic Philosophy and a largely apolitical music enthusiast, by anonymous sniper fire has catalysed even more fervent opposition, and her memory seems to be in the process of being transformed into a symbol of the many who (especially the young) who have died or been gravely injured in the last few days. And yet, we in India are surrounded by a silence about Iran. This silence cannot be explained away as indifference, as a lack of curiosity, as yet another sign of Indian narcissism. Because if it is any of those it also signals a deeply unhealthy refusal to engage with our neighbourhood, and with the wider world. Sometimes, this refusal to engage comes weighed down by a pathetic ignorance of the history of our neighbourhood. "What is happening in Iran cannot be real", goes this line of thinking, because, "actually they are a country of acquiescent fundamentalists, the majority of whom will finally toe the Khamenei-Ahmedinijad line". What this pathetic willingness to capitulate to the Mullahcracy in Iran does not understand is that what is going on in Iran is nothing new. The Islamists lost their moral legitimacy in Iran a long time ago, they actually risk losing their power now. The recent history of Iran is a continuous narrative of the opposition by different sections of the population against this regime. The difference this time, is that all the different sections of the population, women, workers, intellectuals, students, young people, the urban poor, and even some elements in the establishment, seem to have come together to signal that they have run out of patience with the fraud perpetrated on the people of Iran in the name of the Islamic Republic. Those who ignore this forget Iranian history. They forget that twenty thousand women had protested against the veil in Tehran as long ago as the 8th of March, 1979 (in the early days of the Iranian revolution). That uprisings by workers, by Kurds, by Arab minorities were put down with lethal force. That the extrajudicial killings (the 'Chain Murders') in 1988 are still a fresh memory. That thousands of people participated in militant demonstrations against land evictions in Meshed ordered by the regime in 1992 That this year, marks the 10th anniversary of the brutal suppression of the protests in Tehran University campuses that left many students dead in dormitories. That workers have struck again and again, in courageous illegal strikes, in key sectors of the economy, risking death and imprisonment. That civil rights activists and dissidents such as Akbar Ganji and Sajjad Hajarian much like our own Binayak Sen have acted for many years, despite disabling imprisonment and assasination attempts, as beacons of conscience with their principled opposition to an increasingly cynical regime. If we choose to forget, or ignore these realities, the people of Iran will never forgive us, and the thousands of years of things we have shared will drown in their bitter alienation from our lives. Our neighbours will shun us, because we shunned them when they needed us most. Students in Indian universities, workers, teachers, intellectuals, activists, artists and anyone who cares for freedom, for decency in India, need to stand shoulder to shoulder with the people of Iran today. We need petitions to be signed, statements to be released, marches and demonstrations to be organized, sit-ins and boycotts of official Iranian delegations to be put into place. We need to put pressure on Indian corporations to explain their complicity with the brutal Khamenei-Ahmedinijad dictatorship, and we need to ask our government how it explains its complicity through silence with state terror in Iran. We need exactly what needed to be done in Delhi, Calcutta, Bangalore, Trivandrum, Bhopal, Lucknow and Bombay when South Africa practiced Apartheid, when Israel bombed Lebanon or Gaza, when the USA attacked Iraq and even, as my memory serves me, when the Shah of Iran came calling in 1978. We need to say that today, we are all with the people of Iran. That our silence by rage, and our roar by night, will join the wave that has begun in Tehran. Then, and then alone can we repay the debt we owe, over thousands of years, to our friendship with the people of Iran. We should remember this the next time, and whenever, anyone says 'Inquliab Zindabad' within earshot. For decades, those words, have brought together all those committed to liberty and justice in India, and even those who have pretended, or are pretending to be committed to liberty and justice in India. Both those words are taken from Farsi, the common and exalted language of Iran. Shuddhabrata Sengupta The Sarai Programme at CSDS Raqs Media Collective shuddha at sarai.net www.sarai.net www.raqsmediacollective.net From pawan.durani at gmail.com Mon Jun 29 09:35:20 2009 From: pawan.durani at gmail.com (Pawan Durani) Date: Mon, 29 Jun 2009 09:35:20 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Jihadis abduct, rape young girls in Jammu - In-Reply-To: References: <127483.64169.qm@web39104.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <6b79f1a70906282105j5d1d25a1tdb557748ad183a37@mail.gmail.com> Rakesh Ji , Any historical monument , which was originally built for some cause is being looked after by Indian Goverment. Kindly do not mislead by giving example of only Somnath temple , even Jama Masjid in Delhi is renovated and masde beautiful with help of public money by Goverment. Thanks Pawan On Sun, Jun 28, 2009 at 12:19 AM, Rakesh Iyer wrote: > Dear Malik jee > > I don't understand how skewed can your views be? The incident has been > reported in the Daily Pioneer. What do you want? Do you want the case to run > like 24- hr news item the way our media reports, and then reduce it to > caricature? > > Do you want our newsprint media to also portray it the way they usually do, > and thereby reduce it to just one news? > > Or do you want only all news of Hindu sufferings to be published, and no > news of any Muslim or Christian or any other suffering to be banned? > > What do you want? What is your problem, if I may ask you? In anything and > everything you see Muslim appeasement only. > > When the Indian govt decides to give Haj subsidies, it's Muslim appeasement. > When the Indian govt decides to reserve seats for Indian Muslims, it's > Muslim appeasement. When the Indian govt decides to set up bank branches in > Muslim dominated areas, it's Muslim appeasement. Obeying the recommendations > of the Sachar Committee Report is Muslim appeasement. > > But naming the missiles of India as 'Arjun' or giving them only Hindu > mythical names is not appeasement. The decision of Indian govt to build the > Somnath temple by public money is not appeasement. Neither is it appeasement > to spend money of the public on Amarnath and Kedarnath yatras, even to give > security there, that too by organizations other than the police. It's not an > appeasement indeed to state that India is taken as a 'Hindu' rashtra (by the > BJP govt of course). > > So giving money for temple construction or allowing people in the name of > Hindutva to destroy mosques and mazars is not appeasement too. > > Malik jee, for every one argument you give about Muslim appeasement, I will > give you an example of Hindu appeasement. And this will not end. What I want > to know is this, what do you wish to portray through this end listing? And > this is all for those who believe there is Muslim appeasment in India. > > Let me state the obvious here. India is a state where every community is > appeased or sought to be appeased. It's a compromise with which we have to > live. Otherwise, there always is the option of breaking away into 543 and > more principalities where each minority section can live amongst themselves, > produce amongst themselves and not bother others. > > Learn to compromise Malik jee. That's how we live as India. Otherwise, be > prepared for thousands of partitions of India. And if you think partition is > not trauma, remember 1947 or at least read about it. And for more, you can > read about how Pakistan felt in 1971 after losing Bangladesh. > > I would have been happy if you had said that let's not stop at appeasement > but take steps to improve the lives of people on the ground. But this is > simply name calling and nothing else. > > Regards > > Rakesh > From rakesh.rnbdj at gmail.com Mon Jun 29 09:46:14 2009 From: rakesh.rnbdj at gmail.com (Rakesh Iyer) Date: Mon, 29 Jun 2009 09:46:14 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Jihadis abduct, rape young girls in Jammu - In-Reply-To: <6b79f1a70906282105j5d1d25a1tdb557748ad183a37@mail.gmail.com> References: <127483.64169.qm@web39104.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <6b79f1a70906282105j5d1d25a1tdb557748ad183a37@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: Dear Pawan ji I am not saying that the govt. is doing anything wrong by renovating Somnath Mandir (or even Jama Masjid). But does that mean that we look at issue of renovating the Mandir as Hindu appeasement or that of renovating the Masjid as Muslim appeasement? Either both are appeasement of some sort, or both aren't. It can't be the case that one is a form of appeasement and the other is not. India is not a Hindu Rashtra. Regards Rakesh From pawan.durani at gmail.com Mon Jun 29 09:51:10 2009 From: pawan.durani at gmail.com (Pawan Durani) Date: Mon, 29 Jun 2009 09:51:10 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] From Dignibal to Afghanistan - MAKING OF AN AFGHAN TRAINED MILITANT Message-ID: <6b79f1a70906282121p2658a4fcha7736da480287d9e@mail.gmail.com> >From Dignibal to Afghanistan MAKING OF AN AFGHAN TRAINED MILITANT By Yoginder Kandhari [Source: Kashmir Sentinel April-May 2001] Ghulam Mohammad Mir, 29 years old now, hails from a sleepy village in North Kashmir. Besides owning huge tracts of agricultural land, Mir's family also runs a flourishing Kashmiri Shawl business. Leading a fairly comfortable life in the village, lure for Mir to join militancy obviously came from some where else. So called Kashmir experts may like people to believe that insurgency in the Kashmir Valley is a direct result of past mistakes of Indian Government and economic deprivation of people, Mir’s story makes such claims appear hollow. The Backdrop: Ghulam Mohammad Mir partook of the elixir of religious extremism, in 1989-90, in the then newly established madrasa in his native village. Sustained religious indoctrination of the village youth was carried out by a molvi, who had travelled all the way to Kashmir Valley from western UP. Molvi's discourses were full of venom against Hindus, India and her rulers in Delhi. That jihad was the only way to save Islam in Kashmir was the common refrain during such sessions. Entire village population, young and old alike, were swayed by these emotive lectures and an infectious undercurrent gripped the entire village in frenzy. Prominent Pakistan returned militant leaders would frequent the village, brandishing newly acquired AK-47 rifles as an act of defiance against Indian establishment, to entice young boys to join their ranks. Songs eulogizing mujahedeen would rent the air till late in the night. There was an all-round feeling that the golden era of freedom was just round the corner. Whole atmosphere presented a festive look which is normally associated with a nation's independence eve. Young and the middle aged would go overboard whenever an invitation was extended to them to join militant ranks. Ghulam Mohammad Mir was no exception. He too was excited at the prospect of becoming a mujahid and a chance to visit Pakistan-his ‘dreamland’. When local militant commander, Basharat, made an offer, Mir seized the opportunity with both his hands. The Initiation: Besides the Molvi, village elderly and the respected folks took upon themselves the responsibility of motivating youngsters to join militant ranks for waging a ‘holy war’ against the 'infidels'. Ghulam Hassan Shah and Mushtaq War, both well past their 60s, discharged this responsibility efficiently and with total dedication. The duo formed the village screening committee and wielded enough influence in the final selection as well. Mir considered himself to be fortunate enough to get the final nod and was thrilled at his selection. He was ordered to report to mujahideen camp at Dignibal. Surprisingly, there was nothing secretive about these recruitment rallies or camp locations and such activities were a common knowledge with local administration preferring to be a mute spectator. At Dignibal camp, twenty young men congregated with a common purpose of crossing over to Pakistan. Here the boys were given briefings about type of clothing and other equipment to be carried. Proper master rolls were prepared and records were maintained by the camp organizers. Women folk, to include mothers and sisters of the prospective mujahedeen, made a beeline to the camp carrying warm clothing and hard variety of rations for their dear ones and to wish them good luck for their ultimate mission.  In this entire bustle, Mir was fully convinced that he had achieved his dream of becoming a mujahid and he eagerly awaited marching orders to cross over to his ‘dreamland’. Exfiltration: On 15th May 1990, the group finally left Dignibal camp for the launching pad located at Shalkhud. This camp was tucked in a re-entrant and was better organized than the one at Dignibal. Two other groups of youth, twenty each in number, simultaneously joined the camp. Here the boys had the first feel of a regimented routine. Immediately on arrival, each individual was allotted a code name and Ghulam Mohammad Mir was re-christened Moshin Khan. These boys knew each other by these code names only and enquiring real particulars was prohibited. Sixty young mujahedeen in the camp were divided into squads of six boys each and most vocal ones were made the squad leaders. Everyone was given a choice to select a buddy-a la army recruitment centre. During their stay in the camp, these prospective mujahedeen were issued sports shoes, warm clothing, walking sticks, camp kits, rucksacks and hard variety of rations. Conversation in Urdu was encouraged. Detailed briefings were also carried out about the route for exfiltration, likely problems and sustenance en-route, measures to avoid detection by the security forces etc. Latif and Mongru were introduced to the group as their guides for exfiltration. Their antecedents were neither revealed nor enquired. A whisper went around that the guides had been paid a hefty amount, some said Rupees twenty five thousand each, for the high risk job. Basharat accompanied the group as its leader. >From Shalkhud the entire group was lead over mountain tracks overlooking Kangan, Mamer and picturesque Telel in Gurez. Enroute the party encountered all the impediments except the security forces. They had to negotiate snowbound peaks, circumvent frozen lakes and cross fast moving Kishen Ganga River using ropes. Training at Shalkhud camp came in handy in ensuring smooth exfiltration across the LoC. Exfiltration took its toll when Ashfaq slipped and rolled down Kaw Bal. No serious effort was made to trace this boy and he was presumed to have met his snowy grave. After a fortnight's trek,  the group reached a Pakistani post in Gilgit. As soon as they stepped inside the post, the entire group knelt to kiss the ‘holy-land’. Pakistanis accorded them a warm welcome. Within an hour two helicopters arrived to ferry the boys to Gultari. This long and arduous journey did not end here. Local buses had been pressed into service to transport these boys to a training camp at Gaddi Habibullah. Bus journey took about four hours and the boys were totally exhausted and hungry by the time they landed in the camp which camp was commanded by Colonel Riyaz of Pakistan Army. Khajur were served to the group, more as a token of welcome than to satiate their intense hunger. Immediately thereafter, each individual was put through a medical examination to confirm whether all the members were circumcised, probably to establish that no Indian agent had sneaked into the group.  It is believed that Bashrat had been given an option to train mujahedeen either in Pakistan or in Afghanistan but he opted for the first course. Training commenced on 01 June 1990 with all the seriousness. Routine at Training Camp: Training curriculum was well thought out and carefully structured to contain all the essentials elements of military training. Psychological toughening was done through sustained religious indoctrination and anti-India propaganda. A three month training schedule was drawn for the boys in order to make them expert insurgents.  (See Table 1 below) Table 1. Subjects Weightage (Number of training days) 1.      Field craft and minor tactics. 15 2.      Physical endurance training which include regular ten km run. 15 3.      Skill at arms i.e. stripping & assembling of weapons, removal of stoppages and live firing @ 5 rds per day. 30 4.      Handling of explosives to include fabricating and planting IEDs. 15 5.      Training on support weapons i.e. LMG, RL etc including live firing. 15 By the time training finished, all the boys grew confident of taking on the might of Indian security forces so as  to liberate Kashmir from the clutches of kafirs. Based on their performance during training, five mujahedeen were selected for advanced training in Afghanistan. The lucky ones were Moshin Khan, Molvi, Sher Khan, Commando and Bilal. Thrilled at the prospect of training in Afghanistan, they eagerly awaited orders for onward journey while the rest packed up to return to the Valley under watchful eyes of Basharat. Training in Afghanistan: The chosen five were airlifted to an unknown destination in Afghanistan. Location of the new camp was neither divulged to the trainees nor did they dare to ask. Regime in the camp’ under Captain Nurul Rehman, a Pakistani instructor, was very tough. The broad out-line of five month advanced training capsule is given in Table 2 below. Table 2. Subjects Weightage (Number of training days) 1.      Advanced tactical training with emphasis on map reading, raid, ambush, roadblock, fighting in built-up area etc. 30 2.      Training in martial arts. 30 3.      Weapon training @10 rds per head per day and training on RL, LMG, MMG, RCL etc. 30 4.      Communication training. 30 5.      Training in handling explosives and fabricating IEDs. 30 Besides military training, religious indoctrination continued unabated. Instructors at the camp were ruthless and severe with punishment. However, the group was so possessed that the rigors seemed to be minor irritants to them. Return to Pakistan: On completion of training in Afghanistan, five fully fired mujahedeen returned to Pakistan but this time to a different training camp. Return journey from Afghanistan was not smooth at all. A short airlift was followed by six days of continuous route march to a road-head before they took a bus ride to land in a camp called Jungle Mangal. Routine in this camp was bereft of any military content. It was confined to observance of religious rituals like offering nimaz five times a day and reciting Koranic verse. Since winter had already set in, the group waited for the passes to open. Finally, in first week of May 1991, three guides appeared in the camp to lead the mujahedeen back to Kashmir Valley for the ‘holy mission’. As  the group readied for return journey each individual was handed over an AK-47 rifle, four magazines, 500 rounds of ammunition, two hand grenades, a new pair of sports shoes, two sets of shilwar kameez, a walking stick and Rupees three thousand in Indian currency. Infiltration: A warm send off was accorded to the departing mujahedeen. This group was instructed to restrict movement to night for obvious reasons. Infiltration too took its toll. Bilal suffered frost bite and was proving to be a drag. He was abandoned enroute and nothing is known about him since then. After crossing LoC, they were received at Bandipur by Zaffar of Al Barq outfit. Further in the hinterland, they moved from bound to bound without much of a problem and halted at Shalbug before reaching Malbag. At Malbag, the foursome was received by Basharat and stayed in the house of Idris. People thronged this house in droves to have a glimpse of their Pakistan returned heroes. Boys were instructed to shed their weapons and equipment at Malbag and were granted a month's ‘leave’ to meet their families. On expiry of their ‘leave’, the mujahedeen quartet reported to their commander for further assignments to carry out their mission. But then that is another story. From pawan.durani at gmail.com Mon Jun 29 11:32:39 2009 From: pawan.durani at gmail.com (Pawan Durani) Date: Mon, 29 Jun 2009 11:32:39 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Beautiful Iranian Women Pivotal In Iran Election Coverage (VIDEO) Message-ID: <6b79f1a70906282302s446566b1o6d8fb6b72f43ff74@mail.gmail.com> Megan Carpentier, writing for Jezebel, makes a note of the discussion of "pretty" around the issue, saying "when you see a woman with a tunic above her knees, red fingernails, an extremely loose headscarf and a protest sign, try to look beyond the 'pretty.' Those things are also a symbol of what an Ahmadinejad regime would deny (and, in some cases, has denied) her the right to be." Read the complete article and watch video at :- http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2009/06/26/beautiful-iranian-women-p_n_221647.html From shuddha at sarai.net Mon Jun 29 17:17:04 2009 From: shuddha at sarai.net (Shuddhabrata Sengupta) Date: Mon, 29 Jun 2009 17:17:04 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Iran Has Most Journalists in Jail Message-ID: Dear all, Some more information about the situation in Iran today. regards Shuddha ------------------ http://www.guardian.co.uk/media/2009/jun/29/iran-most-journalists-jail Iran has most journalists in jail Oliver Luft, The Guardian, June 29, 2009 Crackdown since protests over disputed election raises number of imprisoned journalists to 33 - more than any other country Iran's media crackdown since protests over the disputed election earlier this month means more journalists are in jail there than in any other country, including China or Cuba, according to Reporters Sans Frontieres. The press freedom campaigning body said that more than 33 journalists were in jail in Iran, up from just a handful before 14 June, when protests over the re-election of Mahmoud Ahmadinejad began. Iran has leapfrogged China and Cuba, according to RSF. At least 25 journalists arrested since the disputed election remain in prison, the Paris-based organisation said on Friday. This clampdown has also seen Iran jump above Burma, which RSF claims has 14 journalists in jail, Eritrea, which has 17 jailed reporters, Cuba with 24 and even China, where 30 reporters – out of the 166 that RWB claims are imprisoned worldwide – are jailed. China was previously the biggest international jailer of reporters, according to RWB. The press freedom organisation said it feared for the safety of those imprisoned in Iran. "Several witness accounts make us fear that torture and ill-treatment are being systematically inflicted on prisoners who have demonstrated against the regime," RWB added. "Several journalists and bloggers were brutally treated by the guards and by men employed by the state prosecutor, Saaed Mortazavi." Amnesty International today called for the Iranian authorities to release the journalists arrested since the elections. Journalists are at risk of torture in detention, the human rights organisation said, adding that the location of most remained unknown. "It is shocking that journalists whose job it is to provide information to others are being detained, on top of all the other draconian measures the authorities have taken to restrict the free flow of information about what is really happening in Iran," said Hassiba Hadj Sahraoui, the deputy director of Amnesty International's Middle East and North Africa programme. "Rather than trying to investigate alleged abuses, the only message the authorities are sending is that they are seeking to hide the truth, both from their own citizens and the rest of the world." Last week the entire staff of defeated Iranian presidential candidate Mir-Hossein Mousavi's newspaper, Kalemeh Sabz, was arrested, marking the intensification of pressure on domestic journalists reporting the ongoing protests. The Iranian foreign ministry also accused the BBC and Voice of America of being mouthpieces of their respective governments and seeking to engineer the ongoing riots that followed the presidential election. Another Iranian ministry also threatened to take "more stern action" against British radio and television networks if they "continued to interfere" in the country's domestic affairs. This followed an announcement by the BBC World Service on 16 June that it was attempting to combat continued broadcast interference from within Iran by increasing the number of satellites it uses to transmit its Persian television news service and extending the channel's hours. Shuddhabrata Sengupta The Sarai Programme at CSDS Raqs Media Collective shuddha at sarai.net www.sarai.net www.raqsmediacollective.net From indersalim at gmail.com Mon Jun 29 20:24:44 2009 From: indersalim at gmail.com (Inder Salim) Date: Mon, 29 Jun 2009 20:24:44 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] the world without borders In-Reply-To: References: <308286.46350.qm@web39104.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <49062404-1752-42E9-B379-97423EED3173@sarai.net> <341380d00906192152p44a48d78tbc172e290858f44f@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <47e122a70906290754w55b51ba1qd07d3aefda9bf77e@mail.gmail.com> Dear all When Dear Taraprakash wrote "in favor of the world without borders would like to oppose special provision for Kashmir provided in article 370." i felt myself like a peace loving rabbit falling into a trap. yes, it is wit, .... we may look carefully before we ask for boarderless world I happen to be one of the millions who stands for the collapse of territories, but does that automatically santions a right to BUY land and occupy the LAND of the poor. The land should be very expensive in this sense, but again, not for those who are landless ( paradox ) the elite/rich people are traditionally delighted to BUY land of the OTHER for pea nuts. Should we oppose that in BOARDERLESS WORLD? I guess, we need to understand how there are some sacred areas, some vital areas of earth , some life still, which is rapdily vanishing from our life. How urgently we neet to protect that,.... but we naively say that LET US HAVE FREE TRADE which transcends boarders How to define TRADE, trade that manipulates each and every move of our life. How to trust traders of a so calle free world who are likely to devour the poor after translating her/him into a evening meal.... Unfortunately, that is already happeing, The world for Traders ( CAPITALISTS ) is boardersless world. It is there sweet will to be, here or there, in any given space or time... the Traders of the world even tell us what is the name of our God, how to worship, and how to apply for visas. They have their own ways to fly at will. it is for the poor of the world who have no mobility, ..........even when there are no boarders....... they are unlikely to move beyond their sweet territotires this is just one layer, which i deeply think about, but ... love is . On Sun, Jun 21, 2009 at 12:28 PM, Rakesh Iyer wrote: > Dear Taraprakash > > I accept the claim that Article 370 must be scrapped, and not only should it > be scrapped, but not only Indians, but also people of all kinds of > identities must be given the democratic right to buy property there if it is > available for sale, and build houses and live there. I don't think this is > something which can be objected to. However, this is ironically in case of > an ideal scenario. > > In the current scenario, the fact remains that some part of the problem is > communal and some part is not communal. Also, whatever be the romantic > notions of the Kashmiris, the fact remains that both India and Pakistani > state establishments are not going to release the Kashmir under their > control, due to the sentimental and emotional capital attached with it. And > India, in order to appease the Kashmiris on its side to be with it, has > introduced this article. > > Therefore, if the ideal scenario case were to be followed, not only must > Article 370 go, but also the LOC and the International Border must go. Both > should be removed and all kinds of people must be allowed to move around and > trade with each other, live where they get the chance to with certain norms > obeyed. > > After all, it would be a shame that on one hand we argue that Muslims can't > live in Hindu dominated areas in Gujarat or elsewhere, and then say that > Hindus or other people can't live in Muslim dominated areas in Kashmir. > > Regards > > Rakesh > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with subscribe in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> -- http://indersalim.livejournal.com From paulo.hartmann at gmail.com Mon Jun 29 20:56:56 2009 From: paulo.hartmann at gmail.com (Paulo Hartmann) Date: Mon, 29 Jun 2009 12:26:56 -0300 Subject: [Reader-list] Mobilefest Calls - Extended up 15th July Message-ID: We've extend Mobilefest call for papers/videos up to July 15th. Call for videos http://www.mobilefest.org/conteudo_eng.aspx?id=16 Call for papers: http://www.mobilefest.org/conteudo_eng.aspx?id=105 Nameste, Paulo Hartmann CALL FOR PAPERS____________________________________________________ IV MOBILEFEST 2009 - International Festival of Mobile Art and Creativity Call for Papers, Projects, Prototypes and Products. THEME How can mobile technology contribute to democracy, culture, art, environment, peace, education, health and the Third Sector? KEY WORDS 3g, mobile applications, interactive architecture, electronic art, mobile activism, bluetooth, cyber culture, live cinema, mociology, culture, democracy, inclusion design, ecology, education, d-i-y, gprs, gps, LBS, innovation, mobile and wireless games, lbs, locative, geotagging, electronic music, mobile music, m-health,_m-payment, m-gov, mobile narrative, peace, interactive net performances with mobile and wireless devices, interchange, video production and distribution, augmented reality, open wireless, mesh, social nets, rfid, expanded classroom, health, sms, mobile streaming, wearable technolgies, tendencies, third-sector, citizen video, video call, TV on mobile, wi-fi, wi-max, zigbee, etc. INTERNATIONAL SEMINAR AND EXHIBITION This seminar attracts leading academics, researchers and other serious-minded people engaged in the pursuit of knowledge related to mobile technology. Mobilefest seeks papers for live presentation. For the participation at the exhibition with interactive installations, performances or urban interventions send a detailed technical rider: installation plan, photos, video and complete description. PAST TOPICS activism, art and technology, democracy, digital divide, ecology and e-waste, games and behavior, inclusive design, innovation, locative media, licensing, m-government, m-learning, mobile art, mobile marketing, mobile music, network culture, new forms of distribution, performance, rfid, video mobile production, wearable technology, wireless cities. CRITERIA Papers should be of an academic or serious research nature. Papers should address current topics of direct relevance to Mobilefest's theme. Abstracts should be at least 500 words. Final papers should be at least 1000 words long, and authors should be prepared to deliver a presentation limited to 45 minutes. TECHNICAL SPECIFICATIONS Papers may be written in Portuguese, Spanish or English. Abstracts and final papers should be sent as email attachments in .TXT, .RTF, .DOC or PDF format. Presentations must be delivered in Portuguese or English. Presentations will be limited to 45 minutes total. DEADLINE Abstracts must be received no later than 15th July 2009. Abstracts will be selected for presentation by 15th August 2009. Notification will be made via this website, as well as to the applicant's listed contact email. REGISTRATION FOR AUTHORS _ Registration must be received by 15th July 2009. Please submit the following information via email to 2009 at mobilefest.org: Author's Full name: Email address: Optional 2nd email address: Postal address: City: State: Country: Postal Code: Landline telephone number: Mobile number: (Optional) University/Organisation/Company:_ Abstract Category (Please mark all that apply): ____Democracy ____Culture ____Art ____Environment ____Peace ____Education ____Health ____Third Sector ____All ** ** MOBILEFEST is a transdisciplinary event. The more interconnection of information, the better. Short biography of principal author: Abstract (minimum 500 words): CALL FOR VIDEOS____________________________________________________ IV MOBILEFEST 2009 - International Festival of Mobile Art and Creativity Call for mobile videos 2009 Mobilefest International Mobile Video Exhibition 17th to 28th September 2009 MIS - Museum of Image and Sound (Museu da Imagem e do Som) Sao Paulo, Brazil. THEME: How can mobile technology contribute to democracy, culture, art, environment, peace, education, health and the Third Sector? Mobilefest Call for Mobile Videos has a cultural emphasis and, thus, is not competitive by design. We seek the very best content possible to share broadly with our participants and via mobile technologies. The 2009 Call for Mobile Video is for professional filmmakers/videographers (writers/producers/directors), as well as amateurs (people that do not make their primary living in the film/video business). Mobilefest also seeks participation and contribution from artists, researchers and developers actively engaged in discovering new possibilities for uses of mobile media. OVERVIEW Today, several initiatives by non-governmental organizations (NGOs), universities, media centers, companies, governments and regular citizens all over the world use the new mobile technologies to promote democracy, culture, art, the environment, peace, education, health and the Third Sector. Mobilefest International Mobile Video Exhibition will screen selected narrative, documentary and experimental film/videos that support these. GENERAL SUBMISSIONS Films and videos submitted should relate to one or more of the stated Mobilefest general theme categories (democracy, culture, art, peace, the environment, education, health, and the Third Sector). Video about the environment is separately considered. 1. Professional Submissions Mobilefest seeks films/videos that may be narrative, documentary or experimental in nature, provided they relate to democracy, culture, art, peace, education, health and the Third Sector. They must be suitable for viewing on a small format, although they need not have been shot using mobile technology. Running time is not restricted. Films/videos can be independent, studio produced, or corporate sponsored. Criteria Submissions must be professionally produced/directed and may be submitted either by the writer, director or producer(s). Videos should have been completed during the previous year, although exceptions will be allowed with advance permission from Mobilefest organizers. Previously submitted entries may not be resubmitted. 2. Amateur Submissions Citizen filmmakers and videographers unite! Submit your creations that were made either using your mobile phone, or made for watching on a mobile. Whether telling a story or documenting something, you can submit your video as long as it relates to any of the themes of Mobilefest. ENVIRONMENT SUBMISSIONS A significant aspect of Mobilefest is its commitment to screen informative and consciousness-raising digital content (shot either by professionals or amateurs around the world) that encourages the mobilization of everyone to protect and preserve our planet for generations to come. Mobilefest calls on all mobile users around the world - professional, amateur, citizen journalists, etc. - to mobilize for the protection of the environment by sending noteworthy videos of the environment from their mobiles or computers. In addition to images that may reveal lack of respect towards our Earth - like illegal cutting of trees, water pollution, wild animal smuggling, or other irregularities - Mobilefest also seeks videos that show the beauties of nature to draw attention to what future generations will miss if we don't take action now to preserve and protect Mother Nature. Criteria - Only the rightful owner of material may submit it. Material may not be submitted by third parties on behalf of anyone else. - Submissions may include fiction and non-fiction films/videos that reflect the issue of environmental protection. - Submissions need not be professionally produced or directed. - Special attention will be given to documentary footage - either professional, amateur or citizen journalist - that captures environmental mistreatment. If your video documents acts being committed against the environment, please include date, approximate time and place of shooting, and total running time of the video. NEW MOBILE MEDIA POSSIBILITIES Mobile and wireless technologies are making it possible for artists of all kinds to stretch the boundaries of their creativity. Mobilefest encourages producers, developers and artists to explore their imagination in search of new artistic expression that uses current technology and hints at future possibilities for content production and distribution. Mobilefest Festival seeks artwork, video and mobile-related creativity that incorporates such technologies as GPS; 3G/4G access; music; wi-fi; scanning; video calls; micro-blogging; picture and video messaging; new applications; localized content; real-time image processing and recognition; augmented or mixed reality; streaming video sharing; and mobile TV. Criteria We are looking for innovative and unique submissions that defy easy categorization or prerequisites, so if you have something you believe we should include, please send us a brief description (up to 500 words) of your project or digital artwork and then we will contact you. Please send your email to videos2009 at mobilefest.org, ATTN: Paulo Hartmann and Marcelo Godoy, and include the phrase NEW MEDIA POSSIBILITIES in the subject line. SHOWCASE OF MOBILE FESTIVALS WORLDWIDE >From its very beginning in 2006 Mobilefest has built an international network of festivals that involve content production created by or for mobile applications. Our goal is to share with the Brazilian audience what others are doing concurrently around the world, and to present an expressive exhibition of the extraordinary emerging mobile video scene. Universities, media centers, cultural associations or companies that have produced or curated festivals about videos created for or by mobiles are encouraged to participate. We will work closely with foreign embassies and cultural centers of your country of origin so that the organizer/representative of your festival also can participate in Mobilefest International Seminar. Mobilefest receives extensive media coverage throughout Brazil. The festivals represented will be included in Mobilefest's official programme and have their logos published in the official catalogue. Past international festivals represented have included: . Mobifest Canada?(Canada) . Pocket Shorts?(England) . Pocket Films (France) . Arte Mov?(Brazil) . Microfilmes?(Portugal) . The 4th Screen?(USA) . FilMobile (UK) . MobilityFest (Colombia) To participate in the Exhibition of Mobile Festivals We request that you send us, by email, some background information about your festival, as well as a representative clip-reel of up to 1-hr. that characterizes the content and nature of your unique festival. Please see technical specifications below. Please send your email to videos2009 at mobilefest.org, ATTN: Marcelo Godoy and Paulo Hartmann, Mobilefest organizers, and include the phrase SHOWCASE OF FESTIVALS in the subject line of your email. REGISTRATION/DEADLINE All submissions are due no later than 15th July 2009 Selections for screening will be announced on 15th August 2009, via this website and the registered director/producer also will be informed via email. Registration fee: Free Registration should be sent by email to videos2009 at mobilefest.org, with the word REGISTRATION in the subject line, with the following information: Director's (Producer's) Full name: Email address: Optional 2nd email address: Postal address: City: State: Country: Postal Code: Landline telephone number: Mobile number: Description (maximum 200 words): Tags: Video Category (Please mark all that apply): ____Democracy ____Culture ____Art ____Environment ____Peace ____Education ____Health ____Third Sector ____All Short biography of submitting writer, director or producer: TECHNICAL SPECIFICATIONS FOR ALL SUBMISSIONS Subtitles If dialogue is not in Portuguese, English or Spanish, please include subtitles in one of these languages. Acceptable formats for all video submissions Digital: 3GP, MPEG2, AVI, MOV?Files. Can be up to 5Mb, with minimum resolution 128 x 96 pixels and maximum resolution 720 x 480 pixels. (Non-digital) Physical:?DVD, DV, Mini-DV, must be NTSC format. Videos should be accompanied by the following information: . A brief description (max. 200 words) . Technical information (including total running time; year shot); . Whether or not video has been broadcast and if so, where/when; . Names of primary production crew. Please submit this descriptive information as an email attachment in .RTF, .DOC or PDF format. Additionally, please include three (3) stills from the video in JPEG (640 x 480 pixels), no compression, from 100kb to 500kb, with 200 dpi resolution. HOW/WHERE TO SEND Videos up to 5 MB should be sent to: videos2009 at mobilefest.org Videos up to 50MB can be sent to mobilefestfestival at gmail.com Videos over 50MB must be sent on physical media (DVD, DV, Mini- DV, NTSC-only), to the following address: Mobilefest R. Helena, 280, cj. 1107 Sao Paulo - SP - Brazil CEP 04552-050 ATTN: 50 MB+ video You must send your submission with some sort of tracking or return receipt (or proof of signature) to verify our receipt. Mobilefest cannot be responsible for materials that never arrive. Materials will not be returned. DO NOT SEND YOUR ONLY COPY!!! MOBILEFEST COLLECTION All materials sent will become part of Mobilefest's permanent video collection. You consent to its possible use in conventional or digital media, advertising and/or promotional materials for Mobilefest, or at any venues related to Mobilefest, including but not limited to school concerts, university functions, and social gatherings. In such instances where any recognizable portion of your video is used, Mobilefest will make best efforts to give credit to the writer, director or producer who originally submitted the material. QUESTIONS? Please email us at videos2009 at mobilefest.org Important: Registrations will be considered complete and valid only when the festival receives the emailed registration form and corresponding DVD or video file (or physical entry). Registration forms must be submitted electronically. You may send an additional hard copy of your registration with a physical entry for identification purposes, but you must submit your official registration electronically. Paulo Hartmann skype: paulohartmann mobile: +5511 94531314 office: +5511 35257428 ((((((MOBILEFEST)))))) ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ www.mobilefest.com.br Rua Helena 280, 1107 04552-050 Sao Paulo Brazil From kauladityaraj at gmail.com Mon Jun 29 22:03:43 2009 From: kauladityaraj at gmail.com (Aditya Raj Kaul) Date: Mon, 29 Jun 2009 22:03:43 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Rakhi's Swayamwar and Geelani Sahib Message-ID: <6353c690906290933n49b768b8j17a4ebfc72912564@mail.gmail.com> Athar Parvez, a 'police officer' from Srinagar is on Rakhi's Swayamwar (NDTV Imagine) to marry her! Hope Geelani Sahib's not watching! ;) ...lol -- Aditya Raj Kaul Freelance Correspondent, The Times of India Cell - +91-9873297834 Blog: http://activistsdiary.blogspot.com/ From nc-agricowi at netcologne.de Fri Jun 19 13:17:51 2009 From: nc-agricowi at netcologne.de (artNET) Date: Fri, 19 Jun 2009 09:47:51 +0200 Subject: [Reader-list] =?iso-8859-1?q?=5BAnnouncements=5D_Call_for_proposa?= =?iso-8859-1?q?ls?= Message-ID: <20090619094751.56487FC4.377412D9@192.168.0.3> [NewMediaArtProjectNetwork]:||cologne http://www.nmartproject.net - the experimental platform for art and new media is planning for 2010-2012 a media art exhibition on the subject of SHOAH, looking for artists, who worked already or would like to work on this topic. In the focus of interest stand primarily digital media, in first place video/film, but also netart, computer basded multi-media, soundart, digital photography and media installation. -------------------------- More info can be found on netEX - networked experience http://www.nmartproject.net/netex/?p=662 and the project blog http://dts.engad.org ------------------------- info (at) nmartproject.net ------------------------- _______________________________________________ announcements mailing list announcements at sarai.net https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/announcements From nc-agricowi at netcologne.de Thu Jun 18 14:16:20 2009 From: nc-agricowi at netcologne.de (artNET) Date: Thu, 18 Jun 2009 10:46:20 +0200 Subject: [Reader-list] =?iso-8859-1?q?=5BAnnouncements=5D_Call=3A_The_Best?= =?iso-8859-1?q?_of_FLash_on_the_Net?= Message-ID: <20090618104620.D48B92A0.BB5CE125@192.168.0.3> extended deadline:31 August 2009 -------------------------------- Cinematheque - streaming media project environments http://cinema.nmartproject.net Call for entries \\ Flash & Thunder Flash as a medium and tool for artistic creations // Since the Internet became popular in the late 90'ies of 20th century, the software program "FLASH", once developed and prepared for the commercial market by Macromedia, and now owned by Adobe, represents a vector based developing environment which enables the creator to combine different media and develop vector based animations especially for the Internet. .swf data file extension became a standard for animations online and offline, and Flash video and its .flv file format stands for "videostreaming" on the net. As soon as the Internet started, artists captured it for artistic purposes, and the same is good for certain software used for the net, particularly Flash is predestined for developing artistic creations due to its intuitive use. It became one of the most popular software tools for the net, computer based animations and interactive applications like games. Flash based artworks entered media festivals, even festivals solely based on movies created in Flash are organised. After Cinematheque - streaming media environments - explored in 2007 the capabilities of "Quicktime" as an artistic medium in the comprehensive show \\Slowtime? Quicktime as an artistic medium// - its now the time to explore in 2009 the artistic potential of Flash in its own way in a big online show, as well. // Flash and Thunder Flash as a medium and tool for artistic creations \\ Cinematheque is looking for the best artistic Flash works created since 2000. Please find the regulations and entry form on http://www.nmartproject.net/netex/?p=408 /////////////////////////////////////////////////////////// Cinematheque - streaming media project environments http://cinema.nmartproject.net is a corporate part of [NewMediaArtProjectNetwork]:||cologne http://www.nmartproject.net - the experimental platform for art and new media from Cologne/Germany ///////////////////////////////////////////////////////// _______________________________________________ announcements mailing list announcements at sarai.net https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/announcements From javedmasoo at gmail.com Mon Jun 29 15:54:51 2009 From: javedmasoo at gmail.com (M Javed) Date: Mon, 29 Jun 2009 15:54:51 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Who gives muftis the right to give fatwas? Message-ID: Gay sex against tenets of Islam: Deoband 29 Jun 2009, 1353 hrs IST, PTI MUZAFFARNAGAR, UP: A leading Islamic seminary on Monday opposed Centre's move to repeal a controversial section of the penal law which criminalises homosexuality saying unnatural sex is against the tenets of Islam. "Homosexuality is an offence under Shariat Law and haram (prohibited) in Islam," deputy vice chancellor of the Darul Uloom Deoband Maulana Abdul Khalik Madrasi said. Madrasi also asked the government not to repeal section 377 of IPC which criminalises homosexuality. His objection came a day after law minister Veerappa Moily said a decision on repealing the section would be taken only after considering concerns of all sections of the society, including religious groups like the church. Terming gay activities as crime, Maulana Salim Kasmi, vice-president of the All-India Muslim Personal Law Board (AIMPLB), said homosexuality is punishable under Islamic law and section 377 of IPC should not be tampered. Maulana Mohd Sufiyan Kasmi, an AIMPLB member, and Mufti Zulfikar, president of Uttar Pradesh Imam Organisation have also expressed similar views on the issue. Kasmi said it would be harmful for the society to legalise gay sex. Buoyed by the news that the Centre is considering repealing the controversial section of the IPC, members of the gay community on Sunday held parades in several cities. http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/Gay-sex-against-tenets-of-Islam-Deoband/articleshow/4715517.cms From chandni.parekh at gmail.com Mon Jun 29 23:19:06 2009 From: chandni.parekh at gmail.com (Chandni Parekh) Date: Mon, 29 Jun 2009 23:19:06 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Juror Expectations of Rape Victims In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: http://psychologynews.posterous.com/juror-expectations-of-rape-victims Excerpts: A new rape trial study shows that jurors expect *rape victims to fight back*against their attackers and sustain physical injuries doing so. Researchers also found that jurors expect rape victims to report the crime immediately and appear distressed and tearful in court. From shuddha at sarai.net Mon Jun 29 23:37:12 2009 From: shuddha at sarai.net (Shuddhabrata Sengupta) Date: Mon, 29 Jun 2009 23:37:12 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Iran Today: Spread Persopolis Message-ID: Dear All, An excellent website, based on the work of graphic novelist Marjane Satrapi, edited and presented by two Iranians currently based in Shanghai. A great way to comment on the current situation in Iran, Do see - http://www.spreadpersepolis.com/ best Shuddha Shuddhabrata Sengupta The Sarai Programme at CSDS Raqs Media Collective shuddha at sarai.net www.sarai.net www.raqsmediacollective.net From shuddha at sarai.net Mon Jun 29 23:39:33 2009 From: shuddha at sarai.net (Shuddhabrata Sengupta) Date: Mon, 29 Jun 2009 23:39:33 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Queer Parade Accounts? Message-ID: Dear All, Surely, there must be people on this list who walked in the Queer Pride Parades in Delhi, Bangalore, Madras and Kolkata (and elsewhere). It would be great to have some first person accounts, of atmosphere and responses. best Shuddha Shuddhabrata Sengupta The Sarai Programme at CSDS Raqs Media Collective shuddha at sarai.net www.sarai.net www.raqsmediacollective.net From akmalik45 at yahoo.com Tue Jun 30 00:06:39 2009 From: akmalik45 at yahoo.com (akmalik45 at yahoo.com) Date: Mon, 29 Jun 2009 11:36:39 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Reader-list] Jihadis abduct, rape young girls in Jammu - Message-ID: <292544.18111.qm@web39108.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Dear Mr Durrani,                   Well, I intentionally refrained myself from replying to Rakesh because I didtn't like the tenor used in language by him.Difference of opinion comes because people think differently but someone who thinks whatever his views be, only he is right-there is no use of a discussion. If someone has seen Supreme Court judgements, it would be very obvious that the learned judges too differ very widely on the same facts of the cases even to the extent of one acquitting the accused while other convicting the accused to a higher degree.It is accepted as a sign of intellgent difference of opinion. Probably Mr Rakesh doesn't know that Somnath Temple is an archeological site being maintained by Min of Culture, Govt of India and money is being spent on its refurbishment because it is an archeological site being maintained by the Min and not because it is a Hindu temple. 2. On the appeasement, Giving Haj subsidies only to a particular community is a Muslim appeasement.Those disagreeing need to let us know why not then to others as well and why only to Muslims.If I want to go for Haj, why I should not get the subsidy? Even Supreme Court raised the points on a PIL. Why giving Money only to Muslim girl students? Why not to other girl students similarly placed. Is it not a Muslim appeasement? Why not hanging the Parliament attack terrorist convicted by Supreme Court of India is not a Muslim dis-appeasent.(This is how I could describe) Sachar Committee recommendations to be obeyed-what Constitutional provision says you obey something which goes against the provisions of the Constitution of India.The Govt of India didn't even agree to the Election Commision of India's views on Office of Profit held by Madam Sonia Gandhi and Lok Sabha Speaker Som Nath Chatterjee while changing the law overnight to benefit them.The Constitution of India provides no citizen should be discriminated on the basis of caste, creed or religion excepting as provided in Art 16. This article prvides for discrimination for weaker sections based on CLASS of people irresective of their religion. Discrimination based on religion has been held ultra vires by various courts in the country.But the Govt still wants to circumvent it by giving benefits to Muslims somehow or the other.IS IT NOT A MUSLIM APPEASEMENT? Why not people from other religions allowed to benefit alongwith Muslims because it does not result into vote bank politics. If I go on giving instances, I will have to sit all night which I do not wnat to. Please mind at no stage have I opined that Muslims are bad and Hindus or other community people are good. I have opined only that all citizens of India be treated equally and no one should be discrimnated based on religion which is enshrined in our Constitution as well. Such appeasement & divisive policies by the English to keep us divided resulted in the creation of Pakistan.The scars of people of specific religion being killed ,women being raped in front of your eyes still remain after 62 years to those who suffered.Such appeasement have started up now intra-communities in paricular religions.Such policies are going to harm the entire country. Let us not accept it now.Mr Rakesh will perhaps understand it in next 20-25 years. Till then we can live with our different views. By the way the Web definition of SECULARISM: secularism n. Religious skepticism or indifference. The view that religious considerations should be excluded from civil affairs or public education. Regards,  (A.K.MALIK) --- On Mon, 6/29/09, Pawan Durani wrote: > From: Pawan Durani > Subject: Re: [Reader-list] Jihadis abduct, rape young girls in Jammu - > To: "Rakesh Iyer" > Cc: "A.K. Malik" , "Sarai List" > Date: Monday, June 29, 2009, 9:35 AM > Rakesh Ji , > > Any historical monument , which was originally built for > some cause is > being looked after by Indian Goverment. > > Kindly do not mislead by giving example of only Somnath > temple , even > Jama Masjid in Delhi is renovated and masde beautiful with > help of > public money by Goverment. > > Thanks > > Pawan > > On Sun, Jun 28, 2009 at 12:19 AM, Rakesh Iyer > wrote: > > Dear Malik jee > > > > I don't understand how skewed can your views be? The > incident has been > > reported in the Daily Pioneer. What do you want? Do > you want the case to run > > like 24- hr news item the way our media reports, and > then reduce it to > > caricature? > > > > Do you want our newsprint media to also portray it the > way they usually do, > > and thereby reduce it to just one news? > > > > Or do you want only all news of Hindu sufferings to be > published, and no > > news of any Muslim or Christian or any other suffering > to be banned? > > > > What do you want? What is your problem, if I may ask > you? In anything and > > everything you see Muslim appeasement only. > > > > When the Indian govt decides to give Haj subsidies, > it's Muslim appeasement. > > When the Indian govt decides to reserve seats for > Indian Muslims, it's > > Muslim appeasement. When the Indian govt decides to > set up bank branches in > > Muslim dominated areas, it's Muslim appeasement. > Obeying the recommendations > > of the Sachar Committee Report is Muslim appeasement. > > > > But naming the missiles of India as 'Arjun' or giving > them only Hindu > > mythical names is not appeasement. The decision of > Indian govt to build the > > Somnath temple by public money is not appeasement. > Neither is it appeasement > > to spend money of the public on Amarnath and Kedarnath > yatras, even to give > > security there, that too by organizations other than > the police. It's not an > > appeasement indeed to state that India is taken as a > 'Hindu' rashtra (by the > > BJP govt of course). > > > > So giving money for temple construction or allowing > people in the name of > > Hindutva to destroy mosques and mazars is not > appeasement too. > > > > Malik jee, for every one argument you give about > Muslim appeasement, I will > > give you an example of Hindu appeasement. And this > will not end. What I want > > to know is this, what do you wish to portray through > this end listing? And > > this is all for those who believe there is Muslim > appeasment in India. > > > > Let me state the obvious here. India is a state where > every community is > > appeased or sought to be appeased. It's a compromise > with which we have to > > live. Otherwise, there always is the option of > breaking away into 543 and > > more principalities where each minority section can > live amongst themselves, > > produce amongst themselves and not bother others. > > > > Learn to compromise Malik jee. That's how we live as > India. Otherwise, be > > prepared for thousands of partitions of India. And if > you think partition is > > not trauma, remember 1947 or at least read about it. > And for more, you can > > read about how Pakistan felt in 1971 after losing > Bangladesh. > > > > I would have been happy if you had said that let's not > stop at appeasement > > but take steps to improve the lives of people on the > ground. But this is > > simply name calling and nothing else. > > > > Regards > > > > Rakesh > > > From pkray11 at gmail.com Tue Jun 30 01:58:08 2009 From: pkray11 at gmail.com (prakash ray) Date: Tue, 30 Jun 2009 01:58:08 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Queer Parade Accounts? Message-ID: <98f331e00906291328g7af2b9f3qfae337cecf8223bf@mail.gmail.com> Hi Shuddha, Fabulous. Simply fabulous. No other words can describe the Queer Pride Rally 2009 (Delhi). The first thing which I noted that just before the rally began, it rained for a few minutes. It was a huge relief for us in Delhi after days of scorching sun. However, hundreds and hundreds of delhites were already there at the Barahkhamba point from where the rally was to start, the weather set the mood. It was to start at 5.30pm and it actually started on time. For someone like me who has participated in hundreds of rallies in Delhi and elsewhere, it was the first surprise. Suddenly, I heard a band playing - the Asha Band. ' I am in a rally or in a Baraat', I thought. Then I spotted 4 or 5 Dholwallas. All around people were dancing. Many carried placards - all handwritten in various colours, in Hindi, in English. A few were shouting slogans demanding repeal of 377. But no anger in atmosphere. A pure celebration. Celebration of diversity. Heterosexuals, gays, lesbians, transgenders, Hijras, women, men, old, young - colourful masks, cool glasses, rainbow umbrellas, baloons, whistles, saaris, skirts, jeans, kurta, shorts....... The rally was dancing forward. No line, no discipline. No leaders. All smiling, laughing, singing faces. It was not a rally nor a parade nor a show of pride. It was a grand celebration. A few, hardly 10-15, police staff walking with around 3000 people. These staff were without any stress, at times smiling and laughing with the rallyists. We reached Jantar-Mantar by 7 pm. I looked at the assembled crowd and immediately noticed two things- presence of Hijras in good number and women outnumbering men. For me, this rally was not only about some demands or asserting sexual rights. I returned with a renewed hope for the world. Yes, a celebrating world is possible without barriers of castes, gender, religions, nationalities, ideologies, classes ....If we can dance together, we can live together. A wishful thought!! May be. But let me make a wish. PKR From anoopkheri at gmail.com Tue Jun 30 03:35:39 2009 From: anoopkheri at gmail.com (anoop kumar) Date: Tue, 30 Jun 2009 03:35:39 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Launching the website for our Dalit youth magazine 'Insight Young Voices' Message-ID: Dear Friends, Jaibheem, Insight Editorial Collective is pleased to inform you about the launching of the website for our Dalit youth magazine 'Insight Young Voices'. - The *URL for the sites* are as follows:- - http://insightyv.com/ - [The main site will have the latest issues of our magazine and will double up as an e-resource center for Dalit and Tribal students and act as a platform for providing mentorship as well as information regarding various scholarships, admissions and career opportunities] - http://archive.insightyv.com/ - [Top ten past issues of our magazine like Caste and Gender, Caste and Nationalism, Caste and Atrocities have been uploaded and can be accessed by our readers] - http://blog.insightyv.com/ - [ We have also started a blog called '*Round Table*' where our 22 member team will be posting their views, analysis, creative writings on different contemporary issues. We are aiming to develop this blog as a site to generate discussions and debates on these issues.] - Through these sites we are trying to carry forward our magazine's prime objective of creating platforms for Dalit and Tribal students to articulate their views, contribute to the empowerment of our community as well as fight against caste-based discrimination both inside as well as outside the campuses. - The website for our magazine was long overdue, but with our limited resources we were not able to create one till now. The Insight Editorial Collective is highly indebted to the Dalit student group of IIT Mumbai for creating our websites and providing all support for uploading the contents. We sincerely hope that our readers will access these sites and help us in creating a strong and useful online platform for Dalit and Tribal students. - We raise our financial support from within the community for all our activities including printing of the magazine. Like all the other small magazines it has been a very tough journey for us too. Therefore next few issues of our magazine will only be available online and can be read on our website. But we are convinced that nothing will please our readers more than to see a hard copy of Insight Young Voices in their hands and therefore we promise you that we will keep pushing ourselves to create a sustainable model for our mag and come back with printed version of our mag very soon. * - Nest issue of Insight Young Voices to be released on 10th July * In this issue we are carrying interviews of 12 noted Dalit academicians, scholars, activists and religious leaders from different parts of the country. These interviews have been taken by a Dalit student group from TISS, Mumbai in collaboration with Insight Editorial Collective with an objective of mapping the various trajectories within the Dalit movement in last 25 years. The second series of 13 more interviews with similar objective will be published in the August 10th issue of our magazine. - We request our readers to visit our sites and provide us comments and suggestions to improve our efforts. We are planning to gradually develop our website with more useful features and your suggestions and comments will help us in doing so. Thanks. Regards Insight Editorial Collective -- "Rosa sat so Martin could walk; Martin walked so Obama could run, Obama ran so your children can fly" From justjunaid at gmail.com Tue Jun 30 05:21:22 2009 From: justjunaid at gmail.com (Junaid) Date: Tue, 30 Jun 2009 05:21:22 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Iran-discussions on the readerlist Message-ID: Dear Shuddha, I am surprised you could write with such rancor about the current situation in Iran. Your broadbrush use of "Fascism", "Clerical-Klepto-Fascism", "Islamist Thugs" etc. (I don't even have the patience to count how many times you use "Hate" in your posts when it comes to the Iranian government), goes counter to your measured write-ups about other issues that I usually enjoy reading here. I know that you are coming from "another" direction but your Iran posts sound like regular Daniel Pipes garbage. Is that why you are citing him as an aunthentic voice! Much of what you say is totally unsubstantiated. For example, the way you want to to portray Moussavi is just based on guess--lots of "mays" in there. Moussavi was closer to Ayatollah Khomenie (not the Khamenie) than many others. He served as PM during the time Mujahideen left-wingers along with Tudeh were being persecuted. So where does this change of heart for Moussavi come from? In a reply to Taha Mehmood, you mention "Millions of Iranian protestors", and in fact specify "2 million" a little later. Where did you get that number from? Are all the people who voted for Moussavi protesting? Moussavi-the reformist-what is his reformist agenda? There seems to be no discussion about that. Everyone calls him a reformist but what decisions was he likely going to take to make Iranian society more liberal. Why is it that if a people choose a leader, not liked by the West, then it is either a flawed election or a "Repression"? Palestine (Hamas), Venezuela (Chavez) and Iran (Ahmedinejad) are examples. Were you so furious about Bush's election in 2000 (a truly stolen election) or his re-election? Why did the Democratic Americans accept the recount in Florida instead of annuling the results altogether? Do you truly believe that Moussavi actually won the election? The so-called "reformists" who represent the beneficiaries of the Iranian revolution of the 1979 put all their force behind Moussavi and yet could not win. Why? Because most of the rural peasantry (the largest section of the Iranian nation) and the workers in Iran feel happier with Ahmedinejad, who doesn't come from the traditional clerical elite background. Under Ahmedinejad, poorer people believe that the fruits of the Iran resources have begun to spread wider, than was the case earlier. And it is true that Iranians like him for holding strong against the Western pressure, sanctions, propaganda, as well as covert wars they have launched against Iran. And if it is really the "people" of Iran you support what about the 65 percent who voted for Ahmedinejad. I have no love lost for any government in the world. When in power they mostly get corrupt. Iran is no exception. But Iran stands alone in the world today in defiance of the diktats of the West. Israelis hate Iran because it is the only potential check on its unbriddled power in region. The way Israelis have broken Arabs over all these years, hasn't worked in Iran, which makes West bitter. The CIA-led coup against Mossadegh in 1953 and foisting of the Pahlevis on Iranians by the West did not fragment Iranians. The twitter campaigns and weblogs that are run by Iranian diaspora (and others) from around the world are helped very openly by Western media as well covert agencies. And loads of stuff that appears on these websites is conspicuous by its sameness. The protests are more intense on the net than on the ground (your 2-million strong protests notwithstanding). It is not a conspiracy theory but believe me, many vested interests aren't happy about Obama's overtures toward the Muslim world. That Obama took a long time to respond to Iran election-related protests was just a reflection of how much pressure has been put on his adminstration by conservative hawks who suddenly felt their Muslim-bashing script has gone awry. That Obama wants normalisation of relations with Iran is an anathema to hawks in both the West as well as in Israel. That Obama called Iran "the Islamic Republic" and that he said "US respects Iran's sovereignty" does not show he was weak but a recognition of the over-scandilising of Iran protests Western media and interests. In Iran protests, around 17 people have been killed so far (a figure bandied about by the darkest of the Iran-bashers). Last year in Kashmir's peaceful protests against Indian rule, Indian forces killed more than 60 Kashmiris and injured almost 3000. Thousands were jailed under draconian laws. Almost three dozen journalists were beaten up by Indian troops at various places. No Indian rose up, stirred by conscience. And you are giving a call to them to rise up now in support of Tehran's elite, and the diasporic Iranians many of whom are former royalists and are living cushy lives as fifth colulmnists for the West. Mohamad Junaid From prithu7 at hotmail.com Tue Jun 30 05:30:46 2009 From: prithu7 at hotmail.com (pritham k chakravarthy) Date: Tue, 30 Jun 2009 05:30:46 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Queer Parade Accounts? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Dear Shuddha, This is my first response to any reader-list for frankly some of the exchanges in it scares me. You had asked for some response on the Queer Parade. This is from Chennai, June 28th Sunday that began at sharp 4 pm at the Labour Statue at the Marina and walked up to Gandhi Statue. Officially the parade was to finish at 6 pm. But no forced us to abruptly end it. We hung around in the beach, played in the water for hours afterwards. As one of the people who danced, laughed, carried banners, shouted slogans, help make new ones and thoroughly enjoyed myself, I should say Chennai is proud of itself. There were rainbow scarfs, flags, caps distributed to all the onlookers. We came in a variety of wardrobe, that made a rainbow by itself. Marina on a normal Sunday evening is very crowded. The peaceful parade gathered many beachgoers to join in, ask what it was about, then dance with a very of us, allow to be hugged [which believe me is blasphemy in Chennai], auto drivers who lent us bottles of water, peanut sellers who came forward with nuts... what can you say. It was amazing. Absolutely no age/sex/dress code bars... Aravani, LGBTQ or some us mothers who were a part of this with our daughters. some even with their dogs on leash with colourful caps. A year ago when I walked along in Trichur in a similar parade we dreamt of doing this in Chennai. Now I know we can have a peaceful, happy, merry parade for any rightful cause and the few mandatory police posted [most of them women] will join the party too. Happy me, Pritham K. Chakravarthy > To: reader-list at sarai.net > From: shuddha at sarai.net > Date: Mon, 29 Jun 2009 23:39:33 +0530 > Subject: [Reader-list] Queer Parade Accounts? > > Dear All, > > Surely, there must be people on this list who walked in the Queer > Pride Parades in Delhi, Bangalore, Madras and Kolkata (and > elsewhere). It would be great to have some first person accounts, of > atmosphere and responses. > > best > > Shuddha > > Shuddhabrata Sengupta > The Sarai Programme at CSDS > Raqs Media Collective > shuddha at sarai.net > www.sarai.net > www.raqsmediacollective.net > > > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with subscribe in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> _________________________________________________________________ Stay updated! Add Facebook, LinkedIn, MySpace & Hi5 friends to your Windows Live network instantly. Add Now! http://profile.live.com/webactivities/?mkt=en-in From anansi1 at earthlink.net Tue Jun 30 05:51:30 2009 From: anansi1 at earthlink.net (Paul D. Miller) Date: Mon, 29 Jun 2009 20:21:30 -0400 (GMT-04:00) Subject: [Reader-list] Graffiti and the Protests in Iran Message-ID: <22975886.1246321291749.JavaMail.root@mswamui-bichon.atl.sa.earthlink.net> interesting blog post http://markbattypublisher.com/news/graffiti-and-the-protests-in-iran/ images are kinda cool. Paul Lady JusticeJustice, so well personified by the blindfolded lady bearing scales and a sword, has always been the negotiation of balance shot through with violence. Most times, though, violence labeled as ‘just’ is not dealt out blindly; the blindfold that Lady Justice wears is more a pleasant fiction than a comforting reality and her scale is not perfectly balanced—the heavy debt of some acts is repaid with the equivalent of pennies, while minor offenses receive punishments that far exceed them. And what is considered a proper punishment, in terms of scale and sword, varies from culture to culture, each of which puts forth a particular rubric to articulate what it deems as just. It is this that Iranian street artist A1one captures with stencils and stickers of a Lady Justice who, with unobstructed vision, carries scales and, in place of a sword, a rocket propelled grenade, achieving a strangely fitting depiction of the contemporary relation of might and right. ProtestThe electoral mess that is sweeping across Iran, though, rips debates about justice and its implementation from academic discussion and throws them, roughly, into ragged streets, where they are contested as much with placards, batons, and stones as with pleasant words exchanged over coffee and books. Images of riot police clubbing women, videos of waves of protesters swelling through the streets, and pronouncements from officials all underscore the concrete nature of how justice’s rules are established. And with the clamp-down of the Iranian authorities on communications and the internet—satellite signals were cut back, SMS text messaging stopped, internet throughput reduced, and sites like Facebook shutdown—the hoary and effective means of disseminating messages by scrawling them on walls re-achieves prominence. GraffitoArtists like A1one, some of whose work MBP has featured in Urban Iran, have papered and inked the streets, giving expression to the frustration and dissent of a pulsing mass citizens who feel themselves to have been duped or worse. And their artwork is something a bit more direct than the canned television segments seeking to put a tempest into a teapot. By looking to their imagery, you get a rawer, more visceral glimpse of what is at stake in the conflict, since it takes a closer familiarity to follow graffiti’s sarcasm to its point than to catch which side of a dispute the producers of a television segment are editorializing for. Graffiti’s intricate strangeness invites investigation, and this is a good thing: the political programs of Ahmedinejad and Mousavi, their actual policy goals and how they relate to Iran’s governmental apparatus, become relevant, and ‘getting’ the situation requires a fuller interpretation than is possible through the consumption of television’s exploitive, flat tropes. YellAs Iran skips barefoot along the knife-edge between chaotic riots and authoritarian crackdown, and justice’s problematic knot of violence and retribution starts to come undone, one of the clearer glimpses an outsider may get is by looking at the writing on the wall. –JCD From rakesh.rnbdj at gmail.com Tue Jun 30 09:31:25 2009 From: rakesh.rnbdj at gmail.com (Rakesh Iyer) Date: Tue, 30 Jun 2009 09:31:25 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Jihadis abduct, rape young girls in Jammu - In-Reply-To: <292544.18111.qm@web39108.mail.mud.yahoo.com> References: <292544.18111.qm@web39108.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: Dear Mr. Malik jee First of all, I am sorry if I hurt or offended you in any way through my views or while presenting them. At the same time, I agree with you that the purpose of any discussion is defeated when someone participating in the discussion has already formulated his/her view and is not going to budge from that. However, the mail even then does not answer the arguments which I feel should have been answered. You are stating that Somnath Temple (and as Durani ji said about Jama Masjid too) is an archaeological site and hence it was refurbished by the Govt. of India. I have no objections with that and I stated that earlier too. And I do know it is a historical site. However, I can also construe it as an act of Hindu appeasement. Similarly, for Jama Masjid, the action can be construed as an act of Muslim appeasement. Is it not possible to do so? More importantly, I had already stated that in India, appeasement is a form of action which continues, for every person belongs to one minority section or the other. We have so many minorities, like the Jats, the Jatavs, the Muslims, the Ahirs, the Khatiks, the Sikhs, the Christians, the different kind of Dalits, the Yadavs, the Gurjars, the Meenas and so on. I know you may say that casteism is wrong and most of these communities are Hindus. But the fact of the matter is that they mostly assert their identity in terms of caste rather than religion, at least in political life. The Gurjars and Meenas in Rajasthan listen more to their maha-panchayats, which is why we had a clash in Rajasthan between the two communities on the issue of reservations. My view point is that while appeasement is wrong, India is such that each community looks for itself to be appeased. Even now, when such views opposing Haj subsidies are put up, the point is that the govt. can't simply remove away the Haj subsidies simply because a few people representing the Muslims are going to put up a hue and cry. Therefore, the only way to sort this out would be to go for Hindu appeasement, like say an act by the Railway ministry to start trains from all capitals to the four dhams where people can travel for free. Or may be some action of other sorts. Secondly, if this appeasement is not done, then forget vote bank, there will be more riots and partitions in India. We have practiced this appeasement policy in Nagaland and some of the north-eastern states which has ensured that they haven't gone away from the Indian Union. To ensure that Kashmir also doesn't go away, the Article 370 was put up. It's appeasement for Tamils which ensured that Tamil was declared as a classical language, and Hindi was not accepted as the national language in 1965. Similarly, it was appeasement for Telugus which led to the creation of the first state based on language in India, namely Andhra Pradesh. It was appeasement of the Gurjars which forced the Vasundhara Raje govt. to declare reservation for Gurjars even though it was against the SC ruling which directed reservation to be not more than for 50% of the total posts. I state the case that reservation ensures national unity. If there's one reason why the north-Eastern states haven't drifted away from the Indian union, it's because of this appeasement. If Kashmir has still not gone completely away, it's because of this appeasement. If Hindi would have been imposed on Tamil Nadu in 1965, a separate 'Dravida Nadu' would have been formed. If Telugu-speaking people had not been given a state based on their language, they would have gone for violence. If Mumbai had not been made a part of Maharashtra, then the Gujarati-Marathi violence would have been intensified. And if Gurjars would have been dealt with by the army rather than by the politics of reservation, the Gurjars would have been portrayed as an anti-national community in the minds of others, and their people would have been killed. And if tomorrow, Gurjars would have also involved themselves in violence or turned to some kind of organized violence like Naxalism or terrorism, who would have been responsible for that? I can understand Shuddha jee or Anupam jee stating that appeasement should never be done, and if some regions of India are to go away because of that, or India has to break as a result of that, so be it. But I can't understand how nationalists like you can argue for the same. This kind of nationalism is only going to lead to a break up of India, and not even into states based on languages, but also based on castes, creeds and so on. We already have areas like 'Hindu Rashtra', 'Brahmin areas', 'Dalit areas', etc . in different villages and cities of the country. Do you want all of them to become into independent states? And if you don't believe me, then remember that it was the Pakistani state's inability to appease the Bengalis in East Pakistan by accepting Bengali as the other national language, which resulted in the creation of Bangladesh (and not necessarily only the Indira Gandhi declared war as has been portrayed in India for so long). As for the Sachar Committee Report, I think one needs to read the report before arriving at conclusions. I haven't read it, and would be very glad if you can point out from the report itself recommendations proposed by the Committee, which are against the Constitution of India. After all, if Dalits and tribals can be provided funds even today and have separate ministries created for them, simply because they still lack in development parameters and HDI (human development index) even after 60 years of independence, what's wrong if the same findings are found for Muslims and a minority-affairs ministry is created for them? And equally what's wrong if funds are kept to bring them to the average level of development experienced by the nation as a whole? The Committee has noted that the educational, health and employment status of Muslims in India in different organs of the state and in private sectors too is not good. It equally has accepted the view that institutions like say banks don't open many branches in Muslim dominated areas, Muslims are not given loans easily, and that many areas which have more Muslim population are declared 'reserved for SC/ST' whereas those having more SC or ST population are not reserved, with a mindset to ensure that Muslim candidates are not able to stand in elections. What is wrong in putting across that view? What's more, what's wrong if a count of Muslims is organized in the Army to find out whether Muslims are able to enter the Army or not? Of course, we need to find the reasons also as to whether it's the Army discriminating against the Muslims and not allowing them to enter, or is it so that Muslims themselves dont' want to enter the Army. But does that mean the action is wrong. I am not saying that the army necessarily should require more Muslims. The army is an institution which is based on competitive excellence and as such only best personnel are chosen. And unlike other romantics here, I do understand that at least in the short term the army is something we have to live with. The world is not as romantic as some great academics here would like us to believe, though all of us would like it to turn into one, even the terrorists (all kinds) who are fighting thinking that the world will be a romantic one (in their views at least). But what is the harm in finding out reasons as to why Muslims do or don't join the Army in relation to the percentage of the population they constitute for the nation? Therefore, my issue is that unless you make a comprehensive based argument, talking about such 'appeasements' and the Constitution of India is useless. And since you gave the meaning of secularism, let me point out the obvious here: India is a country where you have appeasment practiced in day in and day out, and what's more, true secularism can never be followed in this country, because as I said earlier, this will only lead to break up of the Indian Union. And if you are ready for that, then ok, go ahead with that. By the way, my own view on this is that while I am ready for any break up of the Indian Union (and infact not only India, I would want the entire world to break down into small principalities with no armies), the statist structure of the Union would be replicated into the small principalities and the same oppression would be borne by the people, which I am totally against. Therefore, if any such kind of break up ensures that a different kind of state structure is established, then I am totally fine with it. And as I said, this should be done worldwide, and not only in India alone. Regards Rakesh From rakesh.rnbdj at gmail.com Tue Jun 30 09:33:32 2009 From: rakesh.rnbdj at gmail.com (Rakesh Iyer) Date: Tue, 30 Jun 2009 09:33:32 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Jihadis abduct, rape young girls in Jammu - In-Reply-To: References: <292544.18111.qm@web39108.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: Dear Malik jee I am ready to change my own view points expressed in the previous mail, if you also come up with arguments which can enlighten me and others on the points expressed. But I believe that being romantic or simply talking on principles is not going to help in situations of conflict in any case, what does help is changing some semantics and some compromises. Regards Rakesh From rakesh.rnbdj at gmail.com Tue Jun 30 09:51:50 2009 From: rakesh.rnbdj at gmail.com (Rakesh Iyer) Date: Tue, 30 Jun 2009 09:51:50 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Iran-discussions on the readerlist In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Dear Junaid jee Howsoever much one may say, the reason because of which all this situation has come in, is the credibility of the polls recently conducted in Iran for the post of the President. The authorities have themselves accepted that there are many areas where more than 100% voting has taken place. I personally believe this is ridiculous because this way people can vote in more than one polling booth as well, and there can be no checks on the same. Also, there are question-marks being raised regarding the time duration within which the election verdict was announced, as to how could so many votes be counted so soon. And from the news that seems to come, all those who have protested against the verdict are being punished or being killed. They are being tortured as well. And now journalists are being sent to jail, for relaying the information which is against the view of the Iranian state. Are journalists supposed to be stooges for the state? Just because Indian state tortures citizens in Kashmir, Chhatisgarh (if you have heard of Salwa Judum) or anywhere else in India, does not mean that: 1) Indian citizens accept that the Indian state is doing the right thing by doing so. 2) Just because the Indian state takes such actions and gets away with it, it is right. Such actions, whether be it in Iran or in India or anywhere else, are wrong and must be condemned. Nobody, be it Ahmadinejad or Manmohan Singh or Bush has the right to indulge in actions which are against fundamental human rights and democratic spirit. Therefore, please don't justify the actions in Iran by stating that India also does such actions. Two wrongs don't make a right. India is wrong in killing people who are fighting for their cause but in a non-violent way, and equally Iran is also wrong in killing people who have a particular perception which is against that of the Iranian state, and are fighting for it in a non-violent way too. The simple solution could have been to declare presidential polls again and vote again, with proper rules being enforced, so that it could be decided who actually has the support of the people. If Mousavi has dubious credentials, it doesn't mean that the people there are fighting for the wrong cause. Regards Rakesh From shuddha at sarai.net Tue Jun 30 11:58:31 2009 From: shuddha at sarai.net (Shuddhabrata Sengupta) Date: Tue, 30 Jun 2009 11:58:31 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Iran-discussions on the readerlist In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <70AD46D6-9D80-44D0-AEA4-9193906836FC@sarai.net> Dear Junaid, Thank you for your well argued response to my post on Iran. I have no hesitation at all in saying that with respect to the regime that rules Iran, I think my usage of the word 'hatred' is a measured and considered. I have nothing but hatred and rage for the Ahmedinejad-Khamenei clique, and the reason I have this is because I have a deep and abiding engagement with Iran and its history. You and I may agree on many things, and we usually do, especially on Kashmir, but I have to say that on Iran we have to be clear that we have differences. And that does not worry me at all, nor does it diminish my categorical support to your positions on Kashmir. Differences are healthy and positive things. I write to you, not in opposition, but in the spirit of critical solidarity, and I hope it will be understood as such. Let me, first of all say a few things in order to clarify where I am coming from on Iran. I actually despise the Hugo Chavez regime. And I say this as a person who places himself squarely on the left. think Chavez represents the worst form of authoritarian populism, buttressed (not unlike Ahmadinejad) by oil wealth, and the backing of the military establishment, and I think his brand of politics is actually harmful for the building up of a credible global left wing alternative. I also think Hamas are reactionary. But, notwithstanding my personal distaste for Chavez and what he represents, and Hamas, I do not doubt that both Chavez and Hamas command the support of the majority of the populations in Venezuela and the Gaza strip (though not, for Hamas, in the West Bank in Palestine). And so, I have no hesitation in saying that they enjoy the electoral mandate given to them by the populations that they represent. The intenrational observers in place during the Venezuelan and Palestinian elections, have also not indicated that the elections in Venezuela and Palestine/Gaza were anything but regular. Iran is a different matter. Elections were also regularly held in the Soviet Union, in Poland, in Czechoslovakia (during the years of Soviet hegemony) and they continue to be held in China. In each of these cases, the ruling regime always maintained that it had won, and by ludicrously handsome figures. It won due to massive manipulation of the electoral process. Not very far from home, until recently (and until electronic voting machines introduced a new, as yet, untried technology of selection) the ruling Left Front government in West Bengal had near perfected techniques of 'electoral management' that always gave them the edge. George Bush did exactly the same with his 'stolen election'. You yourself know very well how elections have been and are 'managed', especially by the intelligence agencies of the Indian state in Jammu and Kashmir. I think that the elections we have witnessed in Iran are not very different from these instances. Finally, let us at least concede that an electoral process in which candidates are vetted by an unelected, unrepresentative body, like happens in Iran, where the Guardians Council decides who is suitable and who is not, can never be characterized as a free and fair election. So we can never really say who, or what kind of politics enjoys the confidence of the majority of the population of Iran. Even if that is the case, there was a feeling There are numerous instances of electoral irregularities, which include the fact that the polling percentage for Ahmadinejad stayed constant, from the very beginning to the very end of the counting process, leading to the reasonable suspicion that the outcome was somehow 'fixed' in advance. The opposition has in fact indicated more than 600 specific and concrete instances of irregularity. Here is only one instance - that deliberate confusions within the ballot marking system (between the number for the candidate and a code of endorsement) such as 4 for Moussavi and 44 for Ahmadinejad, lay them open to manipulation. Numerous instances of voter intimidation by the Basij, especially in poorer Industrial and rural districts. And finally, the crackdown on phones, internet and email communication that made communication difficult for opposition activists.I have been in touch with friends in Iran throughout this process, and they are utterly dismayed at what happened, exactly as people were dismayed when elections were blatantly rigged in Kashmir in 1987. They have told me that reliable sources from within the ministry of the interior have communicated to them that the election was utterly, utterly rigged. And that the rigging was well planned from before. I am not a champion of Moussavi. I know very well that he is a part of the ruling establishment of the Islamic Republic, and that he was close to the section of left-leaning intellectuals in Iran who colluded with the Khomeini faction in the initial years after 1979, and that they were complicit (as was for instance the well known Iranian filmmaker, now Mousavi's representative, Mohsen Makhmalbaf, in the brutal repression of the 'left opposition' - their own former comrades). He is like a Khruschev after Stalin. No doubt a part of the system, but also its own internal adversary. This does not make him any less a luminary of the Islamic Republic, just as Khruschev was no less a Soviet luminary. And notwithstanding my critique of the Islamic Republic and the post 1920s Soviet Union, I can still maintain that there is a difference between a Khruschev and a Stalin, and that there are differences between Khomeini, Khameini, Ahmedinejad and Moussavi. But I also know that, over the years, Moussavi has grown closer to Ayatollah Montazeri, (once seen as Khomeini's successor) who made his opposition to the excesses of the regime quite clear and open, and who has been kept under virtual house arrest, since his removal from all positions of influence. But, at the present juncture, things are way beyond the question of what exactly Mousavi represents. To the large majority of Iranians, he represents the realistic possibility of change. The Ahmadinejad regime is, contrary to what you say, deeply unpopular amongst the working poor. Inflation has skyrocketed in Iran, wages have been cut, people have been laid off, there is deep economic discontent. He may have once enjoyed the support of a section of the working poor, because of his apparently 'incorruptible' image, but the growing corruption and nepotism, especially within the industrial and economic agencies managed by the elite of the Revolutionary Guard have strongly alienated him. So has his brutal handling of legitimate working class protest. Only last year, the Vahed Transport workers strike was brutally crushed, union leaders were arrested, tortured and one even had his tongue cut off. There has also been constant attrition in the Khodro automobile works (the regions biggest automobile producer) and in large sectors of industry. As for Ahmadinejad's anti-American and anti-Zionist posturing, I have very little to say. I do not think that the rhetoric of 'Anti- Imperialism' , 'Anti-Zionism' and 'Anti-US' postures alone, which sustained tyrants ranging from Idi Amin to Indira Gandhi, necessarily has to endear us to anyone who spouts the same rhetoric, especially if they do so in the company of Klu Klux Klan functionaries like David Duke (as Ahmadinejad did in one of his 'Holocaust Investigation Conferences' in Tehran). In fact, I reiterate, Ahmadinejad is the best bet for reactionaries within the US and Israel. They can trust him, they know him, and they know that they can use his anti-Semitic lunacy to paint themselves as victims or potential victims and thus build the case for war against Iran. That is why people like Daniel Pipes and Efraim Halevy (former Mossad director) would rather have Ahmadinejad around. Finally, let me put a few other things in perspective. You invoked Mossadeq and the CIA-MI6 engineered coup against him in 1953, which to my mind, is the 'original sin' that began the whole process that led up to the mess in the entire region. The coup and its details are little known. And there is a kind of caginess surrounding it, even in Iran. Ahmadinejad himself has spoken about it once, in his famous 'love letter' to George Bush (where he invited George Bush, the good Christian, to join him, the good Muslim, in ridding the world of Evil). But even in that letter, Ahaminejad's reference to the event is opaque. What is little known, is the fact that the Islamists in Iran (though not all religious figures were Islamists) were strongly behind the coup. They were in fact injected with serious amounts of cash by the local CIA station then, and it is with this event that they first got their taste of political influence. Mossadeq's one time ally, Ayatollah Kashani (Khomeini's mentor) fell out with Mossadeq, when he (Mossadeq) introduced legislation hinting at land reforms and rights for women. It was at this time that bridges began being built between the beleagured Shah, the CIA station and the Ayatollah Kashani camp. Incidentally, one of the couriers between the Shah and the Ayatollah Kashani (and his ally in the town of Qom, Ayatollah Uzma Broujerdi) was the then young and rising, charismatic 'Hojatolislam' Ruhollah Musavi Khomeini (none other than the later 'Ayatollah' Khomeini). "Before and after the coup he (Khomeini) opposed Dr. Mossadegh and cooperated with the Shah. According to the Iranian historian, Nasser Pakdaman, in January 1953, after Mossadeq's cabinet had submitted a bill to Majles granting women the vote, Ayatollah Kashani opposed it. Ruhollah Khomeini — who was a hojatolislam at the time -- gave a sermon in Qom and called upon the folks in the mosque to go out and protest against the Mossadeq government and the bill." (See - http://www.ghandchi.com/iranscope/Anthology/Kazemzadeh/ 28mordad.htm) The Shah was grateful for the help he received, via the CIA from Khomeini and his mentors. And it was only later, in 1961-63, that the Islamists fell out with the Shah, and Khomeini began to take on an active 'oppositional' role. The Iranian Islamist regime has made many attempts to whitewash the realities of the 1953-1961 period and the honeymoon that the Shah had with the Islamists at that time, during and after which, he used the Islamist Fadayeen-e-Islam (with which Kashani and Khomeini were closely associated) to eliminate many traces of the 'left opposition'. This is reasonably well documented, and if you are interested, I can point you to more sources for this. This is why, Khomeini never had much regard for Mossadeq, and is even reported to have said 'Mossadeq slapped Islam, and we would have had to slap him back'. Incidentally, in one of the numerous flip-flops that characterized Khomeini's ascendancy the Avenue named after Mossadeq in the initial heady days after the 1979 revolution was renamed, and almost all traces of his memory were eliminated. It is only recently that the legacy of Mossadeq is being put to some (limited) use, as an attempt to build a 'nationalist' consensus by a beleagured regime. If you examine the history of Iran carefully, I think one cannot but come to the conclusion that had the CIA not meddled in 1953, had the Shah not been restored, figures like Ayatollah Khomeini, and the eventual rise of the Islamic Republic might not have happened. In that case, we can only conclude that the Ayatollah Khomeini, and the regime that he inaugurated, is a beneficiary of CIA policies. Just as Hamas would never have had the influence it now commands if it did not tolerate the tacit acceptance, and indeed benevolence of the State of Israel, during the 1970s and 80s. Chickens do come to roost in the end. And the best laid plans go awry. warm regards, Shuddha Shuddhabrata Sengupta The Sarai Programme at CSDS Raqs Media Collective shuddha at sarai.net www.sarai.net www.raqsmediacollective.net From akmalik45 at yahoo.com Tue Jun 30 12:20:59 2009 From: akmalik45 at yahoo.com (akmalik45 at yahoo.com) Date: Mon, 29 Jun 2009 23:50:59 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Reader-list] Jihadis abduct, rape young girls in Jammu - Message-ID: <183212.89107.qm@web39104.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Dear Mr Rakesh,                 First of all, I must admire that you are read over and have clarity in your expressions and views.I don't go beyond newpaper reports and TV news & discussions and I would also state that many of the views formed are based on sub-conscious happenings in life which I may have encountered in my life-span with wrongs having more impact than rights.Unfortunately my exposure to NET is minimal as I am unable to sit for longer durations in front of the computer/laptop.I will reply to points raised by you in some detail: 1.If someone is out to question & raise an issue, there is no dearth of reasons.People do it at home with parents,colleagues in office and almost anywhere and any place.I agree appeasement is a way of life, you may be doing it to your Professors,others do it in offices, parents/childern do it.Certain decisions are taken overtly with reasons while others are taken covertly where the real reason is different than what is shown to be.Some actions are blatant misuse of authority with no regards for law or institutions or morals or precedents.If you have seen today's papers, see the arguments put forth by lawyer of the Mayawati Govt on spending of public money on her own statutes and elections symbol of elephant.In institutions if a girl gets higher marks, there is an invariablly a charge of sexual favours by her to get good marks.So if you have to have a different view point, you can always find a reason to do so and even justify your wrong actions. 2.It has become a general practice for the Govt/Authorities not to heed to the issues raised unless and until violent means are resorted to and then the authorities oftenly succumb to the pressures and your points come into play not to divide the country But succumbing to such pressures is resulting into benefits to those who don't deserve but are in violent agitations and those who really deserve are still being left out. Resevations to Meenas &Gurjars, Jats are examples of these.We have come to such lows where our childern have started wishing we were SCs/STs/or other reserved categories so that their lives would have easier in getting admissions, jobs & other benefits.In fact we are only heading towards more divisions if not territorial but emotional and affecting day-to-day sentiments. 3.Regarding creation of Bangladesh, the Bengalis in Pakistan would have been crushed by the Pakistani army, had it not been our Govt's intervention for our motives which finally didn,t pay off. They would have been rotting even today.Things have still not improved for them even after creation of Bngladesh otherwise you would not have so much influx to India doing only menial jobs. 4.Per se you can't have any reservations based on religion as per provisions of Constitution so whatever be the recommndations of Sachar Committee there can't be any reservations whether they are downtrodden or not.SCs/STs are categorised into classes which are not based on religion.However since there were no such classes in Muslims/Sikhs/Christians, the benifits are only going to mostly Hindus and that too affluent ones because the political system is not ready to get it flow to the downtrodden. How many instances can you quote where a sweeper's child would have gone to higher services like IAS or even to engg or medicine because they don't go beyond 8th class at all The other day our sweeperress wanted some money for her son's fees, I told her why does she want because it is free for them.You know what she told, she told that for several years she has tries but couldn't get Jaati Praman Patra because she has not been able to give the requisite documents and the rishwat reqd for the Caste Certificate.So she has abandoned her effort. Now there is clamour for Sikhs, Christians and even Muslims to be termed as SCs/STs but their religion says there can not be any castes. 5.The current status of Muslims is pathetic, it is because they themselves are to blame and partly the previous Govts are to be blamed. There has not been any good education to them,job opportunities have been only for artisians which most are very good at.You don't expect any private enterprenuer to hire a person who has studied in Madrasas and does not have any other qualification. Will you employ such a fellow.The same party who is professing Muslim reservation has been in power for more than 50 yrs out of 62 yrs since independence.What is the Solution now, in Districts where there is majority of downtrodden Muslims, the Govt instead of creating reservation for Muslims which in fact even if implemented will be cornered by affluent Muslims in the class, the Govt need to open more educational and employment opportunities for all citizens which will benifit majority of Muslims but miniority of other relion people as well.But this serve the ulterior motive of the political classven giving a dole to all would be permissible under the law. But you can/t create a class of only Muslims for benfits. 6.Regarding Muslims in Army: If I ask you why there is no muslim students in your IIT compared to the population, can you give me a reply and tell me the remedial measures.Traditionally there have been certain caste people who have clamoured more for the Army and you will find that caste portion more prominent. If you are questioning the recruitment process itself, the solution is to rectify that.Today you are doing it for Muslims, tomorrow I will ask the Govt to find out how many Maliks/Iyers are there in the Army and why it is less in population the Rajputs and Jats, should it be acceptable? WHY NOT DO IT FOR CHRISTIANS,SIKHSAND SO ON ,WHERE IS THE END.If we find the recruitment process to be faulty, rectify the same.Let the Govt prepare interested for entry to Army as coaching institutions are doing for entry to IITs/IIMs etc. Who bars them to do so and the see the results.There are Govt operated/sponsered coaching institutions for childern belonging to SC/ST for school exam/cometititive exam like IAS etc. 6. Lastly Law has to be enforced, it has no emotions/religion attached to it nd it ruthless.Those are managing the affairs feel if some law is not good, they can always change. Mind it they changed the law for the benefit of Madam Sonia Gandhi but it benefitted others as well who were similarly placed.Let the Govt give simlar benefits to others while Muslims in general are benefitted.But alas that is not to be! I don't have the effort left to read what I havetyped out, so will be sending it without a second read. Regards, (A.K.MALIK) --- On Tue, 6/30/09, Rakesh Iyer wrote: > From: Rakesh Iyer > Subject: Re: [Reader-list] Jihadis abduct, rape young girls in Jammu - > To: akmalik45 at yahoo.com > Cc: "Pawan Durani" , "Sarai List" > Date: Tuesday, June 30, 2009, 9:31 AM > Dear Mr. Malik jee > > First of all, I am sorry if I hurt or offended you in any > way through my views or while presenting them. At the same > time, I agree with you that the purpose of any discussion is > defeated when someone participating in the discussion has > already formulated his/her view and is not going to budge > from that. > > > However, the mail even then does not answer the arguments > which I feel should have been answered. You are stating that > Somnath Temple (and as Durani ji said about Jama Masjid too) > is an archaeological site and hence it was refurbished by > the Govt. of India. I have no objections with that and I > stated that earlier too. And I do know it is a historical > site. However, I can also construe it as an act of Hindu > appeasement. Similarly, for Jama Masjid, the action can be > construed as an act of Muslim appeasement. Is it not > possible to do so? > > > More importantly, I had already stated that in India, > appeasement is a form of action which continues, for every > person belongs to one minority section or the other. We have > so many minorities, like the Jats, the Jatavs, the Muslims, > the Ahirs, the Khatiks, the Sikhs, the Christians, the > different kind of Dalits, the Yadavs, the Gurjars, the > Meenas and so on. I know you may say that casteism is wrong > and most of these communities are Hindus. But the fact of > the matter is that they mostly assert their identity in > terms of caste rather than religion, at least in political > life. The Gurjars and Meenas in Rajasthan listen more to > their maha-panchayats, which is why we had a clash in > Rajasthan between the two communities on the issue of > reservations. > > > My view point is that while appeasement is wrong, India is > such that each community looks for itself to be appeased. > Even now, when such views opposing Haj subsidies are put up, > the point is that the govt. can't simply remove away the > Haj subsidies simply because a few people representing the > Muslims are going to put up a hue and cry. Therefore, the > only way to sort this out would be to go for Hindu > appeasement, like say an act by the Railway ministry to > start trains from all capitals to the four dhams where > people can travel for free. Or may be some action of other > sorts. > > > Secondly, if this appeasement is not done, then forget vote > bank, there will be more riots and partitions in India. We > have practiced this appeasement policy in Nagaland and some > of the north-eastern states which has ensured that they > haven't gone away from the Indian Union. To ensure that > Kashmir also doesn't go away, the Article 370 was put > up. It's appeasement for Tamils which ensured that Tamil > was declared as a classical language, and Hindi was not > accepted as the national language in 1965. Similarly, it was > appeasement for Telugus which led to the creation of the > first state based on language in India, namely Andhra > Pradesh. It was appeasement of the Gurjars which forced the > Vasundhara Raje govt. to declare reservation for Gurjars > even though it was against the SC ruling which directed > reservation to be not more than for 50% of the total posts. > > > > I state the case that reservation ensures national unity. > If there's one reason why the north-Eastern states > haven't drifted away from the Indian union, it's > because of this appeasement. If Kashmir has still not gone > completely away, it's because of this appeasement. If > Hindi would have been imposed on Tamil Nadu in 1965, a > separate 'Dravida Nadu' would have been formed. If > Telugu-speaking people had not been given a state based on > their language, they would have gone for violence. If Mumbai > had not been made a part of Maharashtra, then the > Gujarati-Marathi violence would have been intensified. And > if Gurjars would have been dealt with by the army rather > than by the politics of reservation, the Gurjars would have > been portrayed as an anti-national community in the minds of > others, and their people would have been killed. And if > tomorrow, Gurjars would have also involved themselves in > violence or turned to some kind of organized violence like > Naxalism or terrorism, who would have been responsible for > that? > > > I can understand Shuddha jee or Anupam jee stating that > appeasement should never be done, and if some regions of > India are to go away because of that, or India has to break > as a result of that, so be it. But I can't understand > how nationalists like you can argue for the same. This kind > of nationalism is only going to lead to a break up of India, > and not even into states based on languages, but also based > on castes, creeds and so on. We already have areas like > 'Hindu Rashtra', 'Brahmin areas', 'Dalit > areas', etc . in different villages and cities of the > country. Do you want all of them to become into independent > states? And if you don't believe me, then remember that > it was the Pakistani state's inability to appease the > Bengalis in East Pakistan by accepting Bengali as the other > national language, which resulted in the creation of > Bangladesh (and not necessarily only the Indira Gandhi > declared war as has been portrayed in India for so long). > > > As for the Sachar Committee Report, I think one needs to > read the report before arriving at conclusions. I > haven't read it, and would be very glad if you can point > out from the report itself recommendations proposed by the > Committee, which are against the Constitution of India. > After all, if Dalits and tribals can be provided funds even > today and have separate ministries created for them, simply > because they still lack in development parameters and HDI > (human development index) even after 60 years of > independence, what's wrong if the same findings are > found for Muslims and a minority-affairs ministry is created > for them? And equally what's wrong if funds are kept to > bring them to the average level of development experienced > by the nation as a whole? > > > The Committee has noted that the educational, health and > employment status of Muslims in India in different organs of > the state and in private sectors too is not good. It equally > has accepted the view that institutions like say banks > don't open many branches in Muslim dominated areas, > Muslims are not given loans easily, and that many areas > which have more Muslim population are declared 'reserved > for SC/ST' whereas those having more SC or ST population > are not reserved, with a mindset to ensure that Muslim > candidates are not able to stand in elections. > > > What is wrong in putting across that view? What's more, > what's wrong if a count of Muslims is organized in the > Army to find out whether Muslims are able to enter the Army > or not? Of course, we need to find the reasons also as to > whether it's the Army discriminating against the Muslims > and not allowing them to enter, or is it so that Muslims > themselves dont' want to enter the Army. But does that > mean the action is wrong. > > > I am not saying that the army necessarily should require > more Muslims. The army is an institution which is based on > competitive excellence and as such only best personnel are > chosen. And unlike other romantics here, I do understand > that at least in the short term the army is something we > have to live with. The world is not as romantic as some > great academics here would like us to believe, though all of > us would like it to turn into one, even the terrorists (all > kinds) who are fighting thinking that the world will be a > romantic one (in their views at least). > > > But what is the harm in finding out reasons as to why > Muslims do or don't join the Army in relation to the > percentage of the population they constitute for the nation? > > > Therefore, my issue is that unless you make a comprehensive > based argument, talking about such 'appeasements' > and the Constitution of India is useless. And since you gave > the meaning of secularism, let me point out the obvious > here: India is a country where you have appeasment practiced > in day in and day out, and what's more, true secularism > can never be followed in this country, because as I said > earlier, this will only lead to break up of the Indian > Union. And if you are ready for that, then ok, go ahead with > that. > > > By the way, my own view on this is that while I am ready > for any break up of the Indian Union (and infact not only > India, I would want the entire world to break down into > small principalities with no armies), the statist structure > of the Union would be replicated into the small > principalities and the same oppression would be borne by the > people, which I am totally against. Therefore, if any such > kind of break up ensures that a different kind of state > structure is established, then I am totally fine with it. > And as I said, this should be done worldwide, and not only > in India alone. > > > Regards > > Rakesh > > > From akmalik45 at yahoo.com Tue Jun 30 12:28:46 2009 From: akmalik45 at yahoo.com (A.K. Malik) Date: Mon, 29 Jun 2009 23:58:46 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Reader-list] Jihadis abduct, rape young girls in Jammu - Message-ID: <511789.18188.qm@web39102.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Dear Mr Rakesh, In the first line please read "Well read over" in place of "read over" Sorry for the missing word (A.K.MALIK) --- On Tue, 6/30/09, Rakesh Iyer wrote: > From: Rakesh Iyer > Subject: Re: [Reader-list] Jihadis abduct, rape young girls in Jammu - > To: akmalik45 at yahoo.com > Cc: "Pawan Durani" , "Sarai List" > Date: Tuesday, June 30, 2009, 9:33 AM > Dear Malik jee > > I am ready to change my own view points expressed in the > previous mail, if you also come up with arguments which can > enlighten me and others on the points expressed. But I > believe that being romantic or simply talking on principles > is not going to help in situations of conflict in any case, > what does help is changing some semantics and some > compromises. > > > Regards > > Rakesh > > From rakesh.rnbdj at gmail.com Tue Jun 30 13:16:58 2009 From: rakesh.rnbdj at gmail.com (Rakesh Iyer) Date: Tue, 30 Jun 2009 13:16:58 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Jihadis abduct, rape young girls in Jammu - In-Reply-To: <511789.18188.qm@web39102.mail.mud.yahoo.com> References: <511789.18188.qm@web39102.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: Dear Malik jee I am pleased to get this reply, and here is my response to the points you highlighted: 1) First Sir, I think we need to be clear on the question of appeasement. According to me, in any case of appeasement, there are three kinds of people or groups. One is the group which is being appeased. The other is the group which is the authority and has the right to appease. And the third is the one who watches from the side and decides upon the impacts of such appeasement. And all three suffer (in positive or negative sense depends upon case to case) in an act of appeasement. Now, in the case of this Muslim appeasement, there are things which have happened. I am happy you gladly pointed out that Muslims have not received the benefits of education and employment, even though the Congress which advocates itself to be the champion of the Muslims, has been ruling for 50 of the past 62 years of independence. The Congress is a huge sham and very different even from the days of Gandhi, so the less said about them the better. Earlier it was about democracy, getting one's voice heard and fighting for the right causes, today it's about worshipping the Gandhi-Nehru dynasty. However, in this case too, all the three suffer. The Muslims suffer ignimony at the fact that they are accused of conducting the blasts and being terrorists, and being the ones who are out to divide the nation. There are still people in this country who believe that majority of the Muslims like to celebrate when Pakistan wins a cricket match over India. There are people who believe that Babri Masjid demolition was right and Muslims should either hand over the land at Ayodhya or go to Pakistan. The other communities suffer. The Hindus suffer because they are made a fool of in the prospect of uniting against Muslims and Muslim appeasement, and the end result is animosity between people of different religions. The Indian state and the people suffer at large because resources are used up in containing violence and managing peace rather than thinking about schemes and missions which can help in improving the life conditions of the people, like the Right to Food Act, the NREGA, the National Rural Health Mission and so on. And then we also have to deal sometimes with cases where the military forces overrule themselves by indulging in acts which seek to probably remind about the truth of the armies in the world history: wherever armies have invaded or gone, they have ensured that a woman's dignity has been torn to shreds. We already know how the concept of purdah came into India. Therefore, I am against appeasement because Muslim appeasement actually doesn't help the Muslims. It's only a practice which is to ensure that Muslims are being made happy for the sake of making them happy, without doing anything good for them. I am happy you have taken it up that way. 2) I agree with you when you state that Bangladesh is in a way created due to India. After all, the might of the state can't be fought with on the basis of people's power alone. After all, it required the Second World War to weaken the powers of the Britain and give India its independence, howsoever much we may credit Gandhi's methods of non-violence. However, the fact is that the entire imbriglio started because Pakistan was not ready to accept Bengali as a national language. We were able to place ourselves in the dispute simply because Pakistan was refusing to budge from its declared stand. Moreover, when Mujibur Rehman's party had won a majority, in an election held by free and fair means, then he should have been allowed to form a govt. which was not allowed. This only further deepened the mistrust among the East Pakistanis of their Western counterparts. This is what allowed us to enter the fray as people from there started migrating towards the border with India. So the problem first started there, and of course, we started the war for our own motives. 3) You are absolutely correct that govts. don't listen to the people unless the people turn violent. This has been found in numerous cases. But my contention goes that even in such cases, govts. listen to you only if you are in a position to inflict democratic defeats during elections. This is why on one hand, Gurjars and Jats are listened to, but not Maoists, simply because Maoists don't participate in elections, nor allow others to do so. If tomorrow, Maoists were to declare their intention to enter democracy and fight in elections, the parties would be sunk and would be jostling for space to appease Maoists and being with them. This is because our politics has not been democratic, but it's a combination of feudalism and mobocracy. And our own people are responsible for this. It's wrong to say that politicians divide us. Anybody can divide us only if we are ready to be divided. And we are already divided. There are gundas among our own society whom we are afraid of, and yet they divide us and make us fight against each other, and we are happy to do so for them, just to earn some money or get a chance to have (forcible) sex with a girl. And the end result is that law and order is implemented selectively in India. 4) If Muslims are not entering IIT, I think we have to ask the question as to why they are not able to enter IIT. If the reason is that Muslims are not able even to get to the stage of secondary education, then obviously the problem must be solved there, for reservation can only help the affluent to come up. However, if the problem is that Muslims are being discriminated against in some way or the other, then may be reservation can be considered. So I am not saying that reservations must be given in Army for the Muslims, but certainly if Army has a bias against Muslims, it needs to be seriously corrected. Of course, if we can have a competitive exam there for that, what harm? I think the issue of reservation is something we have to deal with very sensitively. First of all, we must find out whether reservations have helped improve the position of that community in political, social and economic terms or not. And if not, then we have to find out whether the idea of reservation itself is flawed, or the problem lies in the way it is implemented. I think those are the issues one has to look at before deciding on such problems. On the particular issue of reservation among all communities, not only among Muslims, I feel the current method of implementation only seeks to help the affluent among the communities. On the other hand, the school system is such that the economically backward people are never going to come up under such schemes necessarily, at least those whom you raised questions for in your mail. Therefore, it's time we seek to change by giving another solution, which is to make education for all children compulsory and a right to demand. After all, if we can fight for Right to Food and Right to Employment, why not Right to Education till 10th standard for all at least? And once this starts, automatically reservations can be scrapped. And I think it's time we think of a common one board/entrance exam for all colleges, across India. Leaving aside the IIT, let the AIEEE be the exam to allow all students to get entry in all colleges, and scrap the state-engineering exams, so that each student can get entry in the college he/she desires. A national ranking of all colleges should be instituted, and reservations can be given but state-based should not be given. We do need education reforms to seriously look at this issue, because the only objective reservations are serving is to increase national unity, not the cause of the community at large. Moreover, they are being sought to be looked at as a long term solution, rather than a short term solution. 5) The final point is with respect to the Sachar Committee point you raised. I think the issue of corruption is a larger one and is there in all offices, so just pointing out few instances of that would be wrong. It's there in each and every scheme across India, and not me but the CAG reports are there to show that. At the same time, I feel on a personal note that equality doesn't mean that we don't try to introduce affirmative actions for those who have not come up to the level they should have. Whether that means reservations in institutions of education or employment, or reservations in coaching classes, or some other move is something which needs to be discussed or debated. I am surprised that the Moily committee asked for reservation for OBC's without having even thought about as to how it arrived at a figure of 27% based on the Mandal committee report, which itself was based on a census taken before independence. And I feel reservations should be granted if they help the community, not if as the SC itself said, everybody wants to be a backward. Most of our views are in agreement, but some would obviously differ. And where do differences not exist? Regards Rakesh From siddharth.narrain at gmail.com Tue Jun 30 13:36:08 2009 From: siddharth.narrain at gmail.com (siddharth narrain) Date: Tue, 30 Jun 2009 13:36:08 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Blogger's First Person Account of Bengaluru Pride Message-ID: <1773a06d0906300106s7320db8bq2535ee1646e96a67@mail.gmail.com> http://sanjukta.wordpress.com/2009/06/28/bangalore-queer-pride-march09-a-report/ From shuddha at sarai.net Tue Jun 30 13:17:34 2009 From: shuddha at sarai.net (Shuddhabrata Sengupta) Date: Tue, 30 Jun 2009 13:17:34 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Who gives muftis the right to give fatwas? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Dear Javed, Thank you for forwarding this. I don't know who gives these muftis and tuftis the right to give fatwas, I think they give it to themselves. And since they routinely issue fatwas on all manner of ridiculous matters, we might as well treat this one too with the lack of seriousness that it deserves. We are not governed by the Shariat, and I hope we never will be. Since we are not governed by the Shariat, it hardly matters whether or not Maulana Abdul Khalik Madrasi thinks homosexuality is an offence under Shariat Law. Not even the relevant (and anachronistic, misogynist and patrarchal) sections of Personal Law in matters of marriage and inheritance that govern the lives of Indian Muslims have anything to say about sexual relations in private between consenting adults. So, not even from the completely unacceptabe (to me) standpoint of defending a separate civil code for Muslims is it relevant to discuss the fate of Section 377. Maulana Madrasi is barking up the wrong legal tree. Finally, a small historical digression. Section 377 was introduced by the British Colonial Administration in India. Which, as far as i recall, was not exactly a model Islamic state. In fact, the British Colonial authorities presided over the decline and destruction of 'nominally' Muslim political power in India. if, for the roughly seven hundred years preceding the advent of British rule in India, when the territory happened to be ruled largely by Muslim rulers, (some of whom claimed to be guided by the Shariat) it was not found necessary to invoke a draconian law like section 377, are we to then understand that the British Colonial authority was more 'Islamic' than the Mughal rulers, than the rulers of the Delhi sultanate, and many other kings and princes of a Muslim persuasion. And finally, how exactly would we remember a figure like the great Ghazi of Islam - Mahmud of Ghazna and his love for Ayaz, or Razia Sultana and her love for women, or the distinctly queer ecstasies of Amir Khusrau and Sarmad. Each one of these people saw themselves as devout Muslim. And there was nothing unusual in their being queer Muslims. Islamicate societies all over the world have been historically far more tolerant of various different kinds of same-sex relationships both male and female, and transgender identities, than societies largely anchored in Christian values have been. Islam is a sex positive religion. It celebrates the dignity, beauty and diversity of the human body and all its desires. There is (and always has been) a strong case for a queer theology of liberation that is rooted within the Islamicate cultural universe, and it has had a long history, and it will have a long future. Maulana Madrasi is probably just as ignorant of the traditions he claims are his own as Praveen Togadia, the firebrand leader of the Vishwa Hindu Parishad, is. They would probably make an excellent couple, locked happily together within their private closet of paranoia. Meanwhile, let us hope that Veerappa Moily's supposed u-turn is only a digression, and that the provisions in Section 377 that criminalize the behaviour of consenting adults in private (which should not be the business of the state) are consigned finally to where they belong - the dustbin of history. And congratulations to all those who paraded on the streets of Delhi, Bangalore, Madras and Calcutta. The future belongs to you (and us all) not to the likes of Maulana Madrasi. regards Shuddha On 29-Jun-09, at 3:54 PM, M Javed wrote: > Gay sex against tenets of Islam: Deoband > 29 Jun 2009, 1353 hrs IST, PTI > > MUZAFFARNAGAR, UP: A leading Islamic seminary on Monday opposed > Centre's move to repeal a controversial section of the penal law which > criminalises homosexuality saying unnatural sex is against the > tenets of Islam. > > "Homosexuality is an offence under Shariat Law and haram (prohibited) > in Islam," deputy vice chancellor of the Darul Uloom Deoband Maulana > Abdul Khalik Madrasi said. > > Madrasi also asked the government not to repeal section 377 of IPC > which criminalises homosexuality. > _________________________________________ Shuddhabrata Sengupta The Sarai Programme at CSDS Raqs Media Collective shuddha at sarai.net www.sarai.net www.raqsmediacollective.net From kshmendra2005 at yahoo.com Tue Jun 30 13:56:56 2009 From: kshmendra2005 at yahoo.com (Kshmendra Kaul) Date: Tue, 30 Jun 2009 01:26:56 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Reader-list] Who gives muftis the right to give fatwas? Message-ID: <699145.78533.qm@web57208.mail.re3.yahoo.com> Dear Javed   While it is true that a "Fatwa" is taken note of only if it is issued by a "Maulana" or an "Aalim" but still a "Fatwa" is just an opinion. It is not a JUDGEMENT in the Legal sense.   So, even in a society governed by "Islamic Laws" a Fatwa can be sought by or presented to a Judge but need not neccessarily be decisive in nature of the Judgement given.   Kshmendra  --- On Mon, 6/29/09, M Javed wrote: From: M Javed Subject: [Reader-list] Who gives muftis the right to give fatwas? To: peace_initiative at yahoogroups.com Date: Monday, June 29, 2009, 3:54 PM Gay sex against tenets of Islam: Deoband 29 Jun 2009, 1353 hrs IST, PTI MUZAFFARNAGAR, UP: A leading Islamic seminary on Monday opposed Centre's move to repeal a controversial section of the penal law which criminalises homosexuality saying unnatural sex is against the tenets of Islam. "Homosexuality is an offence under Shariat Law and haram (prohibited) in Islam," deputy vice chancellor of the Darul Uloom Deoband Maulana Abdul Khalik Madrasi said. Madrasi also asked the government not to repeal section 377 of IPC which criminalises homosexuality. His objection came a day after law minister Veerappa Moily said a decision on repealing the section would be taken only after considering concerns of all sections of the society, including religious groups like the church. Terming gay activities as crime, Maulana Salim Kasmi, vice-president of the All-India Muslim Personal Law Board (AIMPLB), said homosexuality is punishable under Islamic law and section 377 of IPC should not be tampered. Maulana Mohd Sufiyan Kasmi, an AIMPLB member, and Mufti Zulfikar, president of Uttar Pradesh Imam Organisation have also expressed similar views on the issue. Kasmi said it would be harmful for the society to legalise gay sex. Buoyed by the news that the Centre is considering repealing the controversial section of the IPC, members of the gay community on Sunday held parades in several cities. http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/Gay-sex-against-tenets-of-Islam-Deoband/articleshow/4715517.cms _________________________________________ reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. Critiques & Collaborations To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with subscribe in the subject header. To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> From difusion at medialab-prado.es Tue Jun 30 14:25:57 2009 From: difusion at medialab-prado.es (difusion) Date: Tue, 30 Jun 2009 10:55:57 +0200 Subject: [Reader-list] P2P Networks and Processes Seminar - July 6 - 10 / Medialab-Prado Message-ID: <4A49D31D.9000409@medialab-prado.es> *The 4th Inclusiva-net Encounter: P2P Networks and Processes will take place in Medialab-Prado Madrid from July 6 to 10, 2009. * The goal of this international meeting is to debate about social and cultural potentials of these peer-to-peer networked systems, as well as their feasibility as an alternative model of knowledge production, based in collaboration, decentralization and the lack of hierarchy. This new edition of the Inclusiva-net platform includes a program of lectures, seminars, round tables, paper presentations, and debate groups. The topic will be addressed from many different perspectives, such as cultural, philosophy, politics, technology, or law. Core themes: artistic and social potentials; application of P2P organizational models to knowledge and social life, legal controversies of file downloading, "panarchy" and "P2P governance" concepts, roles in the emergent countries, the future of P2P, among others. Participants: *Andoni Alonso* (writer and philosopher),* Michel Bauwens* (Foundation for Peer-to-Peer Alternatives), *Javier de la Cueva* (derecho-internet.org), *Juan Freire* (Business School EOI), *Antonio Lafuente* (Blog Tecnocidanos / CSIC), *Margarita Padilla* (Sindominio.net) or *Juan Martín Prada* (director of Inclusiva-net), among others. Limited seating. RSVP for general program and debate groups. http://medialab-prado.es/article/4_encuentro_internacional_inclusiva-net_redes_y_procesos_p2p *Inclusiva-net: P2P Networks and Processes Internacional Seminar July 6 - 10, 2009 in Medialab-Prado *Plaza de las Letras Calle Alameda, 15 28014 Madrid (Spain) tel. 914020 754 difusion at medialab-prado.es From javedmasoo at gmail.com Tue Jun 30 15:46:33 2009 From: javedmasoo at gmail.com (M Javed) Date: Tue, 30 Jun 2009 15:46:33 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Who gives muftis the right to give fatwas? In-Reply-To: <0FB63B83-E35E-4E94-8500-7E0905377B0F@sarai.net> References: <0FB63B83-E35E-4E94-8500-7E0905377B0F@sarai.net> Message-ID: Dear Shuddhabrata Actually I have a slight digression from your answer. I don't care what fatwas the muftis give within their own coterie (I'm sure homosexual behaviour exists in the Deoband madrasa too), but the problem comes when this news is flashed on the front-page: it basically sends a clear signal that "Muslims" in general are against homo-sexuality and this is yet another example of how bigoted the entire community is, and there are absolutely no liberals (or queer-friendly) people among the Muslims and so on, which is not the case. In a way, any controversial fatwa from the Deoband (whichever damn topic) is taken by the media as a hot saucy news to be flashed to show the backwardness of Muslims. But my question is (especially to the mainstream media), do these damn fatwas really represent the entire Muslim community? Are they so important that you have to flash them as headlines. My second minor difference is: when you say "We are not governed by the Shariat, and I hope we never will be". I am not sure if Shariat is all evil. Although I don't practice it strictly, but I know it has many good things in it which make at least the good part of Islam alive. Don't see it only through the eyes of the Taliban. Whether we get governed by the shariat or not, I hope we could at least adopt the good things about it. And Shariat is not a fixed set of rules; it can be and should be open for interpretation, which these muftis have stopped doing. Thanks any way. Javed On Mon, Jun 29, 2009 at 10:53 PM, Shuddhabrata Sengupta wrote: > Dear Javed, > Thank you for forwarding this. I don't know who gives these muftis and > tuftis the right to give fatwas, I think they give it to themselves. And > since they routinely issue fatwas on all manner of ridiculous matters, we > might as well treat this one too with the lack of seriousness that it > deserves. > We are not governed by the Shariat, and I hope we never will be. Since we > are not governed by the Shariat, it hardly matters whether or not Maulana > Abdul Khalik Madrasi thinks homosexuality is an offence under Shariat Law. > Not even the relevant (and anachronistic, misogynist and patrarchal) > sections of Personal Law in matters of marriage and inheritance that govern > the lives of Indian Muslims have anything to say about sexual relations in > private between consenting adults. So, not even from the completely > unacceptabe (to me) standpoint of defending a separate civil code for > Muslims is it relevant to discuss the fate of Section 377. Maulana Madrasi > is barking up the wrong legal tree. > Finally, a small historical digression. Section 377 was introduced by the > British Colonial Administration in India. Which, as far as i recall, was not > exactly a model Islamic state. In fact, the British Colonial authorities > presided over the decline and destruction of 'nominally' Muslim political > power in India. if, for the roughly seven hundred years preceding the advent > of British rule in India, when the territory happened to be ruled largely by > Muslim rulers, (some of whom claimed to be guided by the Shariat) it was not > found necessary to invoke a draconian law like section 377, are we to then > understand that the British Colonial authority was more 'Islamic' than the > Mughal rulers, than the rulers of the Delhi sultanate, and many other kings > and princes of a Muslim persuasion. > And finally, how exactly would we remember a figure like the great Ghazi of > Islam - Mahmud of Ghazna and his love for Ayaz, or Razia Sultana and her > love for women, or the distinctly queer ecstasies of Amir Khusrau and > Sarmad. Each one of these people saw themselves as devout Muslim. And there > was nothing unusual in their being queer Muslims. Islamicate societies all > over the world have been historically far more tolerant of various different > kinds of same-sex relationships both male and female, and transgender > identities, than societies largely anchored in Christian values have been. > Islam is a sex positive religion. It celebrates the dignity, beauty and > diversity of the human body and all its desires. There is (and always has > been) a strong case for a queer theology of liberation that is rooted within > the Islamicate cultural universe, and it has had a long history, and it will > have a long future. > Maulana Madrasi is probably just as ignorant of the traditions he claims are > his own as Praveen Togadia, the firebrand leader of the Vishwa Hindu > Parishad, is. They would probably make an excellent couple, locked happily > together within their private closet of paranoia. > Meanwhile, let us hope that Veerappa Moily's supposed u-turn is only a > digression, and that the provisions in Section 377 that criminalize the > behaviour of consenting adults in private (which should not be the business > of the state)  are consigned finally to where they belong - the dustbin of > history. > And congratulations to all those who paraded on the streets of Delhi, > Bangalore, Madras and Calcutta. The future belongs to you (and us all) not > to the likes of Maulana Madrasi. > regards > Shuddha > On 29-Jun-09, at 3:54 PM, M Javed wrote: > > Gay sex against tenets of Islam: Deoband > 29 Jun 2009, 1353 hrs IST, PTI > MUZAFFARNAGAR, UP: A leading Islamic seminary on Monday opposed > Centre's move to repeal a controversial section of the penal law which > criminalises homosexuality saying unnatural sex is against the tenets of > Islam. > "Homosexuality is an offence under Shariat Law and haram (prohibited) > in Islam," deputy vice chancellor of the Darul Uloom Deoband Maulana > Abdul Khalik Madrasi said. > Madrasi also asked the government not to repeal section 377 of IPC > which criminalises homosexuality. > His objection came a day after law minister Veerappa Moily said a > decision on repealing the section would be taken only after > considering concerns of all sections of the society, including > religious groups like the church. > Terming gay activities as crime, Maulana Salim Kasmi, vice-president > of the All-India Muslim Personal Law Board (AIMPLB), said > homosexuality is punishable under Islamic law and section 377 of IPC > should not be tampered. > Maulana Mohd Sufiyan Kasmi, an AIMPLB member, and Mufti Zulfikar, > president of Uttar Pradesh Imam Organisation have also expressed > similar views on the issue. > Kasmi said it would be harmful for the society to legalise gay sex. > Buoyed by the news that the Centre is considering repealing the > controversial section of the IPC, members of the gay community on > Sunday held parades in several cities. > http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/Gay-sex-against-tenets-of-Islam-Deoband/articleshow/4715517.cms > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with subscribe > in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> > > Shuddhabrata Sengupta > The Sarai Programme at CSDS > Raqs Media Collective > shuddha at sarai.net > www.sarai.net > www.raqsmediacollective.net > > From pawan.durani at gmail.com Tue Jun 30 15:56:30 2009 From: pawan.durani at gmail.com (Pawan Durani) Date: Tue, 30 Jun 2009 15:56:30 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Who gives muftis the right to give fatwas? In-Reply-To: References: <0FB63B83-E35E-4E94-8500-7E0905377B0F@sarai.net> Message-ID: <6b79f1a70906300326p1ab1540av6ed4f4afb5a241b3@mail.gmail.com> Dear Javed , As per sharia on the same subject the law defines "The penalty after a fourth conviction of a homosexual act is death. ".... Pawan On Tue, Jun 30, 2009 at 3:46 PM, M Javed wrote: > Dear Shuddhabrata > Actually I have a slight digression from your answer. I don't care > what fatwas the muftis give within their own coterie (I'm sure > homosexual behaviour exists in the Deoband madrasa too), but the > problem comes when this news is flashed on the front-page: it > basically sends a clear signal that "Muslims" in general are against > homo-sexuality and this is yet another example of how bigoted the > entire community is, and there are absolutely no liberals (or > queer-friendly) people among the Muslims and so on, which is not the > case. In a way, any controversial fatwa from the Deoband (whichever > damn topic) is taken by the media as a hot saucy news to be flashed to > show the backwardness of Muslims. But my question is (especially to > the mainstream media), do these damn fatwas really represent the > entire Muslim community? Are they so important that you have to flash > them as headlines. > > My second minor difference is: when you say "We are not governed by > the Shariat, and I hope we never will be". I am not sure if Shariat is > all evil. Although I don't practice it strictly, but I know it has > many good things in it which make at least the good part of Islam > alive. Don't see it only through the eyes of the Taliban. Whether we > get governed by the shariat or not, I hope we could at least adopt the > good things about it. And Shariat is not a fixed set of rules; it can > be and should be open for interpretation, which these muftis have > stopped doing. > > Thanks any way. > > Javed > > > On Mon, Jun 29, 2009 at 10:53 PM, Shuddhabrata > Sengupta wrote: >> Dear Javed, >> Thank you for forwarding this. I don't know who gives these muftis and >> tuftis the right to give fatwas, I think they give it to themselves. And >> since they routinely issue fatwas on all manner of ridiculous matters, we >> might as well treat this one too with the lack of seriousness that it >> deserves. >> We are not governed by the Shariat, and I hope we never will be. Since we >> are not governed by the Shariat, it hardly matters whether or not Maulana >> Abdul Khalik Madrasi thinks homosexuality is an offence under Shariat Law. >> Not even the relevant (and anachronistic, misogynist and patrarchal) >> sections of Personal Law in matters of marriage and inheritance that govern >> the lives of Indian Muslims have anything to say about sexual relations in >> private between consenting adults. So, not even from the completely >> unacceptabe (to me) standpoint of defending a separate civil code for >> Muslims is it relevant to discuss the fate of Section 377. Maulana Madrasi >> is barking up the wrong legal tree. >> Finally, a small historical digression. Section 377 was introduced by the >> British Colonial Administration in India. Which, as far as i recall, was not >> exactly a model Islamic state. In fact, the British Colonial authorities >> presided over the decline and destruction of 'nominally' Muslim political >> power in India. if, for the roughly seven hundred years preceding the advent >> of British rule in India, when the territory happened to be ruled largely by >> Muslim rulers, (some of whom claimed to be guided by the Shariat) it was not >> found necessary to invoke a draconian law like section 377, are we to then >> understand that the British Colonial authority was more 'Islamic' than the >> Mughal rulers, than the rulers of the Delhi sultanate, and many other kings >> and princes of a Muslim persuasion. >> And finally, how exactly would we remember a figure like the great Ghazi of >> Islam - Mahmud of Ghazna and his love for Ayaz, or Razia Sultana and her >> love for women, or the distinctly queer ecstasies of Amir Khusrau and >> Sarmad. Each one of these people saw themselves as devout Muslim. And there >> was nothing unusual in their being queer Muslims. Islamicate societies all >> over the world have been historically far more tolerant of various different >> kinds of same-sex relationships both male and female, and transgender >> identities, than societies largely anchored in Christian values have been. >> Islam is a sex positive religion. It celebrates the dignity, beauty and >> diversity of the human body and all its desires. There is (and always has >> been) a strong case for a queer theology of liberation that is rooted within >> the Islamicate cultural universe, and it has had a long history, and it will >> have a long future. >> Maulana Madrasi is probably just as ignorant of the traditions he claims are >> his own as Praveen Togadia, the firebrand leader of the Vishwa Hindu >> Parishad, is. They would probably make an excellent couple, locked happily >> together within their private closet of paranoia. >> Meanwhile, let us hope that Veerappa Moily's supposed u-turn is only a >> digression, and that the provisions in Section 377 that criminalize the >> behaviour of consenting adults in private (which should not be the business >> of the state)  are consigned finally to where they belong - the dustbin of >> history. >> And congratulations to all those who paraded on the streets of Delhi, >> Bangalore, Madras and Calcutta. The future belongs to you (and us all) not >> to the likes of Maulana Madrasi. >> regards >> Shuddha >> On 29-Jun-09, at 3:54 PM, M Javed wrote: >> >> Gay sex against tenets of Islam: Deoband >> 29 Jun 2009, 1353 hrs IST, PTI >> MUZAFFARNAGAR, UP: A leading Islamic seminary on Monday opposed >> Centre's move to repeal a controversial section of the penal law which >> criminalises homosexuality saying unnatural sex is against the tenets of >> Islam. >> "Homosexuality is an offence under Shariat Law and haram (prohibited) >> in Islam," deputy vice chancellor of the Darul Uloom Deoband Maulana >> Abdul Khalik Madrasi said. >> Madrasi also asked the government not to repeal section 377 of IPC >> which criminalises homosexuality. >> His objection came a day after law minister Veerappa Moily said a >> decision on repealing the section would be taken only after >> considering concerns of all sections of the society, including >> religious groups like the church. >> Terming gay activities as crime, Maulana Salim Kasmi, vice-president >> of the All-India Muslim Personal Law Board (AIMPLB), said >> homosexuality is punishable under Islamic law and section 377 of IPC >> should not be tampered. >> Maulana Mohd Sufiyan Kasmi, an AIMPLB member, and Mufti Zulfikar, >> president of Uttar Pradesh Imam Organisation have also expressed >> similar views on the issue. >> Kasmi said it would be harmful for the society to legalise gay sex. >> Buoyed by the news that the Centre is considering repealing the >> controversial section of the IPC, members of the gay community on >> Sunday held parades in several cities. >> http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/Gay-sex-against-tenets-of-Islam-Deoband/articleshow/4715517.cms >> _________________________________________ >> reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. >> Critiques & Collaborations >> To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with subscribe >> in the subject header. >> To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list >> List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> >> >> Shuddhabrata Sengupta >> The Sarai Programme at CSDS >> Raqs Media Collective >> shuddha at sarai.net >> www.sarai.net >> www.raqsmediacollective.net >> >> > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with subscribe in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> From ysaeed7 at yahoo.com Tue Jun 30 16:01:30 2009 From: ysaeed7 at yahoo.com (Yousuf) Date: Tue, 30 Jun 2009 03:31:30 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Reader-list] Avaaz for Iran Message-ID: <673005.51678.qm@web51411.mail.re2.yahoo.com> Dear friends, The crackdown and blackout on Iran's streets and internet is silencing the voices of protesters. Iranians urgently need internet access to communicate with each other and world - let's fund simple, cheap tools to help them freely access the internet: TAKE ACTION NOW! The brutal crackdown on Iran’s streets is succeeding. Lethal shooting, beatings and mass arrests have driven millions off the streets, and a communications blackout is preventing them from communicating with each other and the world.1 Ruling clerics are in crisis talks -- many are criticising the crackdown and calling for reform.2 We urgently need to help Iranians get back on the internet to have their voices heard in Iran and the world. Secure and anonymous "proxy services" are helping people to bypass regime controls and get online -- but they're overloaded and running out of funds.3 A small donation of just $10 can provide bandwidth for hundreds of secure emails - if 10,000 of us donate in the next 72 hours, we can help break the blackout: https://secure.avaaz.org/en/iran_break_the_blackout Proxy services provide people with a single link at which they can freely access the internet. The link is changed every time the regime blocks access to it. With 10,000 donors, we can scale up the proxy services massively -- providing more servers, bandwidth and advanced technical support. The next two weeks are crucial. As Iran’s secret policemen cast their net far and wide, secure channels of communication are also critical to avoiding the crackdown. Scores have been killed and hundreds of human rights advocates, journalists, bloggers and peaceful protesters imprisoned. Although many more remain free, without safe ways to communicate they will face terrible risks. After the crackdowns in Tibet and Burma, Avaaz members donated in our thousands to preserve the people’s basic human right to free communication and information. Overcoming censorship to make contact with each other and the world is crucial at these moments. Sharing information about the protests still flaring up around the provinces of Iran from Kurdish areas to the holy city of Qom, or uploading YouTube videos and first-hand reports of bravery and brutality to Iran’s million-plus weblogs and networks like Twitter, could make a huge difference.4 If the regime believe they can silence such reports, the crackdown will only worsen. Legitimacy matters in Iran. From inspirational videos of million-strong marches to shocking evidence of militia violence, the truth will come out only if Iranians can communicate freely with each other.5 The clerical councils engaged in closed-door crisis talks are paying great attention to the voices being raised in their society. Let’s make sure Iran’s voices are not silenced – help break the blackout before it’s too late: https://secure.avaaz.org/en/iran_break_the_blackout With hope and determination, Paul, Ricken, Milena, Graziela, Paula, Luis, Brett, Iain, Rajeev and the whole Avaaz team Sources: 1. Updates on the crackdown: http://news.yahoo.com/s/nm/20090625/ts_nm/us_iran_election_210 http://www.guardian.co.uk/news/blog/2009/jun/25/iran-crisis 2. On the debate in the regime, Majlis Speaker Larijani criticises Guardian Council, IRIB, calls for open debate: http://www.presstv.com/detail/98645.htm?sectionid=351020101 Conservative Tehran mayor Qalibaf calls for legalisation of rallies: http://www.presstv.ir/detail.aspx?id=98941§ionid=351020101 Assembly of Experts considers forcing a run-off election: http://www.thedailybeast.com/blogs-and-stories/2009-06-25/a-deal-to-save-iran/ 3. Many of our contacts in Iran are reporting that they have been using these services but that they are running out of bandwidth fast. Also see: http://edition.cnn.com/2009/TECH/06/18/iran.dodging.crackdown/ http://www.internetfreedom.org/Use_of_Censorship_Circumvention_Services_Soars_in_Iran 4. See for example: http://www.qlineorientalist.com/IranRises/general-strike-in-kurdistan/ http://www.youtube.com/user/citizentube http://twitter.com/#search?q=%23iranelection 5. Regardless of the actual result of the election, the importance of basic rights to assembly and open debate, which could also help shine a light on what occurred, has been emphasised in an open letter of support to the demonstrators. Its signatories include the anti-imperialist writer Noam Chomsky: http://www.ireport.com/docs/DOC-277500 ----------------------------------------- Want to support Avaaz? We're entirely funded by member donations and receive no money from governments or corporations. Our dedicated online team ensures even the smallest contributions go a long way -- donate here. ABOUT AVAAZ Avaaz.org is an independent, not-for-profit global campaigning organization that works to ensure that the views and values of the world's people inform global decision-making. (Avaaz means "voice" in many languages.) Avaaz receives no money from governments or corporations, and is staffed by a global team based in Ottawa, London, Rio de Janeiro, New York, Buenos Aires, and Geneva. 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You can also call us at +1-888-922-8229 (US) or +55 21 2509 0368 (Brazil) If you have technical problems, please go to http://www.avaaz.org From shuddha at sarai.net Tue Jun 30 15:59:54 2009 From: shuddha at sarai.net (Shuddhabrata Sengupta) Date: Tue, 30 Jun 2009 15:59:54 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Who gives muftis the right to give fatwas? In-Reply-To: References: <0FB63B83-E35E-4E94-8500-7E0905377B0F@sarai.net> Message-ID: <12F44AA4-0793-4773-9464-A60012C8E0A1@sarai.net> Dear Javed, Agreed with you on both counts. The media actually goes and finds these maulanas and provides them a platform, if only to demonstrate the fact that somehow 'muslims' would be tagged as illiberal and bigoted. I saw a Christian priest being asked repeatedly the same question again and again on TV yesterday, in a debate on Section 377. In this case, the priest actually said that though he had a faith based objection to Homosexuality (which he is entitled to have, on the basis of his convictions) he saw no harm in 'decriminalizing' homosexuality through a repeal of Section 377. And yet the News anchor kept trying to needle him and get him into a corner from where he would deliver his own little 'fatwa'. Luckily, in this case, the priest did not bend to the bait. I think that when the media run to Maulanas and priests and acharyas for sound bites matters that they are not competent to comment on, they are being totally irresponsible, and that they are actually helping to create a climate of bigotry. Also, there are many aspects of the Shariat, as it has been interpreted in diverse contexts, with which I am in agreement, just as there are some, with which I am not in agreement. I think the some of the Sharia based injunctions towards hospitality, charity and the sharing of wealth are exemplery. But, some (not all) provisions relating to the relations between and within the sexes, and the conduct of women, I find problematic. I also know well that these are later accretions. There is a crying need for sane, reasoned but passionate debate on questions of exegesis in Islam and indeed, in all other religions. And I am more than well aware of spaces within Muslim societies where these debates are occurring. They are beacons of light. Unfortunately, I do not think that Darul Uloom Deoband (in its current state) is a place where this can happen. That is a tragedy for all South Asians, regardless of whether or not they are Muslim, regards Shuddha On 30-Jun-09, at 3:46 PM, M Javed wrote: > Dear Shuddhabrata > Actually I have a slight digression from your answer. I don't care > what fatwas the muftis give within their own coterie (I'm sure > homosexual behaviour exists in the Deoband madrasa too), but the > problem comes when this news is flashed on the front-page: it > basically sends a clear signal that "Muslims" in general are against > homo-sexuality and this is yet another example of how bigoted the > entire community is, and there are absolutely no liberals (or > queer-friendly) people among the Muslims and so on, which is not the > case. In a way, any controversial fatwa from the Deoband (whichever > damn topic) is taken by the media as a hot saucy news to be flashed to > show the backwardness of Muslims. But my question is (especially to > the mainstream media), do these damn fatwas really represent the > entire Muslim community? Are they so important that you have to flash > them as headlines. > > My second minor difference is: when you say "We are not governed by > the Shariat, and I hope we never will be". I am not sure if Shariat is > all evil. Although I don't practice it strictly, but I know it has > many good things in it which make at least the good part of Islam > alive. Don't see it only through the eyes of the Taliban. Whether we > get governed by the shariat or not, I hope we could at least adopt the > good things about it. And Shariat is not a fixed set of rules; it can > be and should be open for interpretation, which these muftis have > stopped doing. > > Thanks any way. > > Javed > > > On Mon, Jun 29, 2009 at 10:53 PM, Shuddhabrata > Sengupta wrote: >> Dear Javed, >> Thank you for forwarding this. I don't know who gives these muftis >> and >> tuftis the right to give fatwas, I think they give it to >> themselves. And >> since they routinely issue fatwas on all manner of ridiculous >> matters, we >> might as well treat this one too with the lack of seriousness that it >> deserves. >> We are not governed by the Shariat, and I hope we never will be. >> Since we >> are not governed by the Shariat, it hardly matters whether or not >> Maulana >> Abdul Khalik Madrasi thinks homosexuality is an offence under >> Shariat Law. >> Not even the relevant (and anachronistic, misogynist and patrarchal) >> sections of Personal Law in matters of marriage and inheritance >> that govern >> the lives of Indian Muslims have anything to say about sexual >> relations in >> private between consenting adults. So, not even from the completely >> unacceptabe (to me) standpoint of defending a separate civil code for >> Muslims is it relevant to discuss the fate of Section 377. Maulana >> Madrasi >> is barking up the wrong legal tree. >> Finally, a small historical digression. Section 377 was introduced >> by the >> British Colonial Administration in India. Which, as far as i >> recall, was not >> exactly a model Islamic state. In fact, the British Colonial >> authorities >> presided over the decline and destruction of 'nominally' Muslim >> political >> power in India. if, for the roughly seven hundred years preceding >> the advent >> of British rule in India, when the territory happened to be ruled >> largely by >> Muslim rulers, (some of whom claimed to be guided by the Shariat) >> it was not >> found necessary to invoke a draconian law like section 377, are we >> to then >> understand that the British Colonial authority was more 'Islamic' >> than the >> Mughal rulers, than the rulers of the Delhi sultanate, and many >> other kings >> and princes of a Muslim persuasion. >> And finally, how exactly would we remember a figure like the great >> Ghazi of >> Islam - Mahmud of Ghazna and his love for Ayaz, or Razia Sultana >> and her >> love for women, or the distinctly queer ecstasies of Amir Khusrau and >> Sarmad. Each one of these people saw themselves as devout Muslim. >> And there >> was nothing unusual in their being queer Muslims. Islamicate >> societies all >> over the world have been historically far more tolerant of various >> different >> kinds of same-sex relationships both male and female, and transgender >> identities, than societies largely anchored in Christian values >> have been. >> Islam is a sex positive religion. It celebrates the dignity, >> beauty and >> diversity of the human body and all its desires. There is (and >> always has >> been) a strong case for a queer theology of liberation that is >> rooted within >> the Islamicate cultural universe, and it has had a long history, >> and it will >> have a long future. >> Maulana Madrasi is probably just as ignorant of the traditions he >> claims are >> his own as Praveen Togadia, the firebrand leader of the Vishwa Hindu >> Parishad, is. They would probably make an excellent couple, locked >> happily >> together within their private closet of paranoia. >> Meanwhile, let us hope that Veerappa Moily's supposed u-turn is >> only a >> digression, and that the provisions in Section 377 that >> criminalize the >> behaviour of consenting adults in private (which should not be the >> business >> of the state) are consigned finally to where they belong - the >> dustbin of >> history. >> And congratulations to all those who paraded on the streets of Delhi, >> Bangalore, Madras and Calcutta. The future belongs to you (and us >> all) not >> to the likes of Maulana Madrasi. >> regards >> Shuddha >> On 29-Jun-09, at 3:54 PM, M Javed wrote: >> >> Gay sex against tenets of Islam: Deoband >> 29 Jun 2009, 1353 hrs IST, PTI >> MUZAFFARNAGAR, UP: A leading Islamic seminary on Monday opposed >> Centre's move to repeal a controversial section of the penal law >> which >> criminalises homosexuality saying unnatural sex is against the >> tenets of >> Islam. >> "Homosexuality is an offence under Shariat Law and haram (prohibited) >> in Islam," deputy vice chancellor of the Darul Uloom Deoband Maulana >> Abdul Khalik Madrasi said. >> Madrasi also asked the government not to repeal section 377 of IPC >> which criminalises homosexuality. >> His objection came a day after law minister Veerappa Moily said a >> decision on repealing the section would be taken only after >> considering concerns of all sections of the society, including >> religious groups like the church. >> Terming gay activities as crime, Maulana Salim Kasmi, vice-president >> of the All-India Muslim Personal Law Board (AIMPLB), said >> homosexuality is punishable under Islamic law and section 377 of IPC >> should not be tampered. >> Maulana Mohd Sufiyan Kasmi, an AIMPLB member, and Mufti Zulfikar, >> president of Uttar Pradesh Imam Organisation have also expressed >> similar views on the issue. >> Kasmi said it would be harmful for the society to legalise gay sex. >> Buoyed by the news that the Centre is considering repealing the >> controversial section of the IPC, members of the gay community on >> Sunday held parades in several cities. >> http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/Gay-sex-against-tenets-of-Islam- >> Deoband/articleshow/4715517.cms >> _________________________________________ >> reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. >> Critiques & Collaborations >> To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with >> subscribe >> in the subject header. >> To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list >> List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> >> >> Shuddhabrata Sengupta >> The Sarai Programme at CSDS >> Raqs Media Collective >> shuddha at sarai.net >> www.sarai.net >> www.raqsmediacollective.net >> >> Shuddhabrata Sengupta The Sarai Programme at CSDS Raqs Media Collective shuddha at sarai.net www.sarai.net www.raqsmediacollective.net From shuddha at sarai.net Tue Jun 30 16:07:04 2009 From: shuddha at sarai.net (Shuddhabrata Sengupta) Date: Tue, 30 Jun 2009 16:07:04 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Who gives muftis the right to give fatwas? In-Reply-To: <6b79f1a70906300326p1ab1540av6ed4f4afb5a241b3@mail.gmail.com> References: <0FB63B83-E35E-4E94-8500-7E0905377B0F@sarai.net> <6b79f1a70906300326p1ab1540av6ed4f4afb5a241b3@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: Dear Pawan, Luckily, there is no one thing called Sharia. The provision that you have referred to probably exists in a very specific interpretation of Muslim jurisprudence, which would be challenged, or at least called into question, elsewhere. If you put any two believing Muslims together you would probably get five interpretations of Shariat. The liberality and openness of Islamicate cultures and traditions has had a lot to do with this alive culture of debate. If this provision were to be uniformly implemented, it would be hard for us to understand how it is that societies in the Islamicate world had such a rich tradition of sexual diversity, some of which we could now understand within the rubric of the unfortunately narrow and inadequate term - Homosexual. None of this means that it is necessary for us, including those of us who happen to be Muslim, to live according to the dictates of any interpretation of Shariat. I think these questions, of how one is to conduct one's private life, is best left to the individual choice and agency of consenting adults. Away from the shadow of the long arm of the judge, the policeman, the priest, the pundit and the mullah. best Shuddha On 30-Jun-09, at 3:56 PM, Pawan Durani wrote: > Dear Javed , > > As per sharia on the same subject the law defines "The penalty after a > fourth conviction of a homosexual act is death. ".... > > Pawan > > > On Tue, Jun 30, 2009 at 3:46 PM, M Javed wrote: >> Dear Shuddhabrata >> Actually I have a slight digression from your answer. I don't care >> what fatwas the muftis give within their own coterie (I'm sure >> homosexual behaviour exists in the Deoband madrasa too), but the >> problem comes when this news is flashed on the front-page: it >> basically sends a clear signal that "Muslims" in general are against >> homo-sexuality and this is yet another example of how bigoted the >> entire community is, and there are absolutely no liberals (or >> queer-friendly) people among the Muslims and so on, which is not the >> case. In a way, any controversial fatwa from the Deoband (whichever >> damn topic) is taken by the media as a hot saucy news to be >> flashed to >> show the backwardness of Muslims. But my question is (especially to >> the mainstream media), do these damn fatwas really represent the >> entire Muslim community? Are they so important that you have to flash >> them as headlines. >> >> My second minor difference is: when you say "We are not governed by >> the Shariat, and I hope we never will be". I am not sure if >> Shariat is >> all evil. Although I don't practice it strictly, but I know it has >> many good things in it which make at least the good part of Islam >> alive. Don't see it only through the eyes of the Taliban. Whether we >> get governed by the shariat or not, I hope we could at least adopt >> the >> good things about it. And Shariat is not a fixed set of rules; it can >> be and should be open for interpretation, which these muftis have >> stopped doing. >> >> Thanks any way. >> >> Javed >> >> >> On Mon, Jun 29, 2009 at 10:53 PM, Shuddhabrata >> Sengupta wrote: >>> Dear Javed, >>> Thank you for forwarding this. I don't know who gives these >>> muftis and >>> tuftis the right to give fatwas, I think they give it to >>> themselves. And >>> since they routinely issue fatwas on all manner of ridiculous >>> matters, we >>> might as well treat this one too with the lack of seriousness >>> that it >>> deserves. >>> We are not governed by the Shariat, and I hope we never will be. >>> Since we >>> are not governed by the Shariat, it hardly matters whether or not >>> Maulana >>> Abdul Khalik Madrasi thinks homosexuality is an offence under >>> Shariat Law. >>> Not even the relevant (and anachronistic, misogynist and patrarchal) >>> sections of Personal Law in matters of marriage and inheritance >>> that govern >>> the lives of Indian Muslims have anything to say about sexual >>> relations in >>> private between consenting adults. So, not even from the completely >>> unacceptabe (to me) standpoint of defending a separate civil code >>> for >>> Muslims is it relevant to discuss the fate of Section 377. >>> Maulana Madrasi >>> is barking up the wrong legal tree. >>> Finally, a small historical digression. Section 377 was >>> introduced by the >>> British Colonial Administration in India. Which, as far as i >>> recall, was not >>> exactly a model Islamic state. In fact, the British Colonial >>> authorities >>> presided over the decline and destruction of 'nominally' Muslim >>> political >>> power in India. if, for the roughly seven hundred years preceding >>> the advent >>> of British rule in India, when the territory happened to be ruled >>> largely by >>> Muslim rulers, (some of whom claimed to be guided by the Shariat) >>> it was not >>> found necessary to invoke a draconian law like section 377, are >>> we to then >>> understand that the British Colonial authority was more 'Islamic' >>> than the >>> Mughal rulers, than the rulers of the Delhi sultanate, and many >>> other kings >>> and princes of a Muslim persuasion. >>> And finally, how exactly would we remember a figure like the >>> great Ghazi of >>> Islam - Mahmud of Ghazna and his love for Ayaz, or Razia Sultana >>> and her >>> love for women, or the distinctly queer ecstasies of Amir Khusrau >>> and >>> Sarmad. Each one of these people saw themselves as devout Muslim. >>> And there >>> was nothing unusual in their being queer Muslims. Islamicate >>> societies all >>> over the world have been historically far more tolerant of >>> various different >>> kinds of same-sex relationships both male and female, and >>> transgender >>> identities, than societies largely anchored in Christian values >>> have been. >>> Islam is a sex positive religion. It celebrates the dignity, >>> beauty and >>> diversity of the human body and all its desires. There is (and >>> always has >>> been) a strong case for a queer theology of liberation that is >>> rooted within >>> the Islamicate cultural universe, and it has had a long history, >>> and it will >>> have a long future. >>> Maulana Madrasi is probably just as ignorant of the traditions he >>> claims are >>> his own as Praveen Togadia, the firebrand leader of the Vishwa Hindu >>> Parishad, is. They would probably make an excellent couple, >>> locked happily >>> together within their private closet of paranoia. >>> Meanwhile, let us hope that Veerappa Moily's supposed u-turn is >>> only a >>> digression, and that the provisions in Section 377 that >>> criminalize the >>> behaviour of consenting adults in private (which should not be >>> the business >>> of the state) are consigned finally to where they belong - the >>> dustbin of >>> history. >>> And congratulations to all those who paraded on the streets of >>> Delhi, >>> Bangalore, Madras and Calcutta. The future belongs to you (and us >>> all) not >>> to the likes of Maulana Madrasi. >>> regards >>> Shuddha >>> On 29-Jun-09, at 3:54 PM, M Javed wrote: >>> >>> Gay sex against tenets of Islam: Deoband >>> 29 Jun 2009, 1353 hrs IST, PTI >>> MUZAFFARNAGAR, UP: A leading Islamic seminary on Monday opposed >>> Centre's move to repeal a controversial section of the penal law >>> which >>> criminalises homosexuality saying unnatural sex is against the >>> tenets of >>> Islam. >>> "Homosexuality is an offence under Shariat Law and haram >>> (prohibited) >>> in Islam," deputy vice chancellor of the Darul Uloom Deoband Maulana >>> Abdul Khalik Madrasi said. >>> Madrasi also asked the government not to repeal section 377 of IPC >>> which criminalises homosexuality. >>> His objection came a day after law minister Veerappa Moily said a >>> decision on repealing the section would be taken only after >>> considering concerns of all sections of the society, including >>> religious groups like the church. >>> Terming gay activities as crime, Maulana Salim Kasmi, vice-president >>> of the All-India Muslim Personal Law Board (AIMPLB), said >>> homosexuality is punishable under Islamic law and section 377 of IPC >>> should not be tampered. >>> Maulana Mohd Sufiyan Kasmi, an AIMPLB member, and Mufti Zulfikar, >>> president of Uttar Pradesh Imam Organisation have also expressed >>> similar views on the issue. >>> Kasmi said it would be harmful for the society to legalise gay sex. >>> Buoyed by the news that the Centre is considering repealing the >>> controversial section of the IPC, members of the gay community on >>> Sunday held parades in several cities. >>> http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/Gay-sex-against-tenets-of- >>> Islam-Deoband/articleshow/4715517.cms >>> _________________________________________ >>> reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. >>> Critiques & Collaborations >>> To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with >>> subscribe >>> in the subject header. >>> To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list >>> List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> >>> >>> Shuddhabrata Sengupta >>> The Sarai Programme at CSDS >>> Raqs Media Collective >>> shuddha at sarai.net >>> www.sarai.net >>> www.raqsmediacollective.net >>> >>> >> _________________________________________ >> reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. >> Critiques & Collaborations >> To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with >> subscribe in the subject header. >> To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list >> List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> Shuddhabrata Sengupta The Sarai Programme at CSDS Raqs Media Collective shuddha at sarai.net www.sarai.net www.raqsmediacollective.net From kshmendra2005 at yahoo.com Tue Jun 30 16:11:51 2009 From: kshmendra2005 at yahoo.com (Kshmendra Kaul) Date: Tue, 30 Jun 2009 03:41:51 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Reader-list] Who gives muftis the right to give fatwas? Message-ID: <493810.37075.qm@web57206.mail.re3.yahoo.com> Dear Javed   You cannot be a "Muslim" and at the same time not be against homosexuality or be supportive of homosexuality.   A "Muslim" must follow the injunction of the Quran. Leaving aside for the moment the injunctions derived from the Hadeeth, in the Quran itself there specific advisories and castigations against  homosexuality and any other sexual preference other than bi-sexual and that too only with the spouse.   Kshmendra --- On Tue, 6/30/09, M Javed wrote: From: M Javed Subject: Re: [Reader-list] Who gives muftis the right to give fatwas? To: "Shuddhabrata Sengupta" , "sarai list" Date: Tuesday, June 30, 2009, 3:46 PM Dear Shuddhabrata Actually I have a slight digression from your answer. I don't care what fatwas the muftis give within their own coterie (I'm sure homosexual behaviour exists in the Deoband madrasa too), but the problem comes when this news is flashed on the front-page: it basically sends a clear signal that "Muslims" in general are against homo-sexuality and this is yet another example of how bigoted the entire community is, and there are absolutely no liberals (or queer-friendly) people among the Muslims and so on, which is not the case. In a way, any controversial fatwa from the Deoband (whichever damn topic) is taken by the media as a hot saucy news to be flashed to show the backwardness of Muslims. But my question is (especially to the mainstream media), do these damn fatwas really represent the entire Muslim community? Are they so important that you have to flash them as headlines. My second minor difference is: when you say "We are not governed by the Shariat, and I hope we never will be". I am not sure if Shariat is all evil. Although I don't practice it strictly, but I know it has many good things in it which make at least the good part of Islam alive. Don't see it only through the eyes of the Taliban. Whether we get governed by the shariat or not, I hope we could at least adopt the good things about it. And Shariat is not a fixed set of rules; it can be and should be open for interpretation, which these muftis have stopped doing. Thanks any way. Javed On Mon, Jun 29, 2009 at 10:53 PM, Shuddhabrata Sengupta wrote: > Dear Javed, > Thank you for forwarding this. I don't know who gives these muftis and > tuftis the right to give fatwas, I think they give it to themselves. And > since they routinely issue fatwas on all manner of ridiculous matters, we > might as well treat this one too with the lack of seriousness that it > deserves. > We are not governed by the Shariat, and I hope we never will be. Since we > are not governed by the Shariat, it hardly matters whether or not Maulana > Abdul Khalik Madrasi thinks homosexuality is an offence under Shariat Law. > Not even the relevant (and anachronistic, misogynist and patrarchal) > sections of Personal Law in matters of marriage and inheritance that govern > the lives of Indian Muslims have anything to say about sexual relations in > private between consenting adults. So, not even from the completely > unacceptabe (to me) standpoint of defending a separate civil code for > Muslims is it relevant to discuss the fate of Section 377. Maulana Madrasi > is barking up the wrong legal tree. > Finally, a small historical digression. Section 377 was introduced by the > British Colonial Administration in India. Which, as far as i recall, was not > exactly a model Islamic state. In fact, the British Colonial authorities > presided over the decline and destruction of 'nominally' Muslim political > power in India. if, for the roughly seven hundred years preceding the advent > of British rule in India, when the territory happened to be ruled largely by > Muslim rulers, (some of whom claimed to be guided by the Shariat) it was not > found necessary to invoke a draconian law like section 377, are we to then > understand that the British Colonial authority was more 'Islamic' than the > Mughal rulers, than the rulers of the Delhi sultanate, and many other kings > and princes of a Muslim persuasion. > And finally, how exactly would we remember a figure like the great Ghazi of > Islam - Mahmud of Ghazna and his love for Ayaz, or Razia Sultana and her > love for women, or the distinctly queer ecstasies of Amir Khusrau and > Sarmad. Each one of these people saw themselves as devout Muslim. And there > was nothing unusual in their being queer Muslims. Islamicate societies all > over the world have been historically far more tolerant of various different > kinds of same-sex relationships both male and female, and transgender > identities, than societies largely anchored in Christian values have been. > Islam is a sex positive religion. It celebrates the dignity, beauty and > diversity of the human body and all its desires. There is (and always has > been) a strong case for a queer theology of liberation that is rooted within > the Islamicate cultural universe, and it has had a long history, and it will > have a long future. > Maulana Madrasi is probably just as ignorant of the traditions he claims are > his own as Praveen Togadia, the firebrand leader of the Vishwa Hindu > Parishad, is. They would probably make an excellent couple, locked happily > together within their private closet of paranoia. > Meanwhile, let us hope that Veerappa Moily's supposed u-turn is only a > digression, and that the provisions in Section 377 that criminalize the > behaviour of consenting adults in private (which should not be the business > of the state)  are consigned finally to where they belong - the dustbin of > history. > And congratulations to all those who paraded on the streets of Delhi, > Bangalore, Madras and Calcutta. The future belongs to you (and us all) not > to the likes of Maulana Madrasi. > regards > Shuddha > On 29-Jun-09, at 3:54 PM, M Javed wrote: > > Gay sex against tenets of Islam: Deoband > 29 Jun 2009, 1353 hrs IST, PTI > MUZAFFARNAGAR, UP: A leading Islamic seminary on Monday opposed > Centre's move to repeal a controversial section of the penal law which > criminalises homosexuality saying unnatural sex is against the tenets of > Islam. > "Homosexuality is an offence under Shariat Law and haram (prohibited) > in Islam," deputy vice chancellor of the Darul Uloom Deoband Maulana > Abdul Khalik Madrasi said. > Madrasi also asked the government not to repeal section 377 of IPC > which criminalises homosexuality. > His objection came a day after law minister Veerappa Moily said a > decision on repealing the section would be taken only after > considering concerns of all sections of the society, including > religious groups like the church. > Terming gay activities as crime, Maulana Salim Kasmi, vice-president > of the All-India Muslim Personal Law Board (AIMPLB), said > homosexuality is punishable under Islamic law and section 377 of IPC > should not be tampered. > Maulana Mohd Sufiyan Kasmi, an AIMPLB member, and Mufti Zulfikar, > president of Uttar Pradesh Imam Organisation have also expressed > similar views on the issue. > Kasmi said it would be harmful for the society to legalise gay sex. > Buoyed by the news that the Centre is considering repealing the > controversial section of the IPC, members of the gay community on > Sunday held parades in several cities. > http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/Gay-sex-against-tenets-of-Islam-Deoband/articleshow/4715517.cms > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with subscribe > in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> > > Shuddhabrata Sengupta > The Sarai Programme at CSDS > Raqs Media Collective > shuddha at sarai.net > www.sarai.net > www.raqsmediacollective.net > > _________________________________________ reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. Critiques & Collaborations To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with subscribe in the subject header. To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> From kshmendra2005 at yahoo.com Tue Jun 30 16:24:54 2009 From: kshmendra2005 at yahoo.com (Kshmendra Kaul) Date: Tue, 30 Jun 2009 03:54:54 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Reader-list] Who gives muftis the right to give fatwas? Message-ID: <63661.38295.qm@web57206.mail.re3.yahoo.com> CORRECTION - Please read "heterosexual" instead of "bi-sexual" in the earlier sent mail. The mail should have been:   Dear Javed   You cannot be a "Muslim" and at the same time not be against homosexuality or be supportive of homosexuality.   A "Muslim" must follow the injunction of the Quran. Leaving aside for the moment the injunctions derived from the Hadeeth, in the Quran itself there specific advisories and castigations against  homosexuality and any other sexual preference other than heterosexual and that too only with the spouse.   Kshmendra --- On Tue, 6/30/09, Kshmendra Kaul wrote: From: Kshmendra Kaul Subject: Re: [Reader-list] Who gives muftis the right to give fatwas? To: "sarai list" , "M Javed" Date: Tuesday, June 30, 2009, 4:11 PM Dear Javed   You cannot be a "Muslim" and at the same time not be against homosexuality or be supportive of homosexuality.   A "Muslim" must follow the injunction of the Quran. Leaving aside for the moment the injunctions derived from the Hadeeth, in the Quran itself there specific advisories and castigations against  homosexuality and any other sexual preference other than bi-sexual and that too only with the spouse.   Kshmendra --- On Tue, 6/30/09, M Javed wrote: From: M Javed Subject: Re: [Reader-list] Who gives muftis the right to give fatwas? To: "Shuddhabrata Sengupta" , "sarai list" Date: Tuesday, June 30, 2009, 3:46 PM Dear Shuddhabrata Actually I have a slight digression from your answer. I don't care what fatwas the muftis give within their own coterie (I'm sure homosexual behaviour exists in the Deoband madrasa too), but the problem comes when this news is flashed on the front-page: it basically sends a clear signal that "Muslims" in general are against homo-sexuality and this is yet another example of how bigoted the entire community is, and there are absolutely no liberals (or queer-friendly) people among the Muslims and so on, which is not the case. In a way, any controversial fatwa from the Deoband (whichever damn topic) is taken by the media as a hot saucy news to be flashed to show the backwardness of Muslims. But my question is (especially to the mainstream media), do these damn fatwas really represent the entire Muslim community? Are they so important that you have to flash them as headlines. My second minor difference is: when you say "We are not governed by the Shariat, and I hope we never will be". I am not sure if Shariat is all evil. Although I don't practice it strictly, but I know it has many good things in it which make at least the good part of Islam alive. Don't see it only through the eyes of the Taliban. Whether we get governed by the shariat or not, I hope we could at least adopt the good things about it. And Shariat is not a fixed set of rules; it can be and should be open for interpretation, which these muftis have stopped doing. Thanks any way. Javed On Mon, Jun 29, 2009 at 10:53 PM, Shuddhabrata Sengupta wrote: > Dear Javed, > Thank you for forwarding this. I don't know who gives these muftis and > tuftis the right to give fatwas, I think they give it to themselves. And > since they routinely issue fatwas on all manner of ridiculous matters, we > might as well treat this one too with the lack of seriousness that it > deserves. > We are not governed by the Shariat, and I hope we never will be. Since we > are not governed by the Shariat, it hardly matters whether or not Maulana > Abdul Khalik Madrasi thinks homosexuality is an offence under Shariat Law. > Not even the relevant (and anachronistic, misogynist and patrarchal) > sections of Personal Law in matters of marriage and inheritance that govern > the lives of Indian Muslims have anything to say about sexual relations in > private between consenting adults. So, not even from the completely > unacceptabe (to me) standpoint of defending a separate civil code for > Muslims is it relevant to discuss the fate of Section 377. Maulana Madrasi > is barking up the wrong legal tree. > Finally, a small historical digression. Section 377 was introduced by the > British Colonial Administration in India. Which, as far as i recall, was not > exactly a model Islamic state. In fact, the British Colonial authorities > presided over the decline and destruction of 'nominally' Muslim political > power in India. if, for the roughly seven hundred years preceding the advent > of British rule in India, when the territory happened to be ruled largely by > Muslim rulers, (some of whom claimed to be guided by the Shariat) it was not > found necessary to invoke a draconian law like section 377, are we to then > understand that the British Colonial authority was more 'Islamic' than the > Mughal rulers, than the rulers of the Delhi sultanate, and many other kings > and princes of a Muslim persuasion. > And finally, how exactly would we remember a figure like the great Ghazi of > Islam - Mahmud of Ghazna and his love for Ayaz, or Razia Sultana and her > love for women, or the distinctly queer ecstasies of Amir Khusrau and > Sarmad. Each one of these people saw themselves as devout Muslim. And there > was nothing unusual in their being queer Muslims. Islamicate societies all > over the world have been historically far more tolerant of various different > kinds of same-sex relationships both male and female, and transgender > identities, than societies largely anchored in Christian values have been. > Islam is a sex positive religion. It celebrates the dignity, beauty and > diversity of the human body and all its desires. There is (and always has > been) a strong case for a queer theology of liberation that is rooted within > the Islamicate cultural universe, and it has had a long history, and it will > have a long future. > Maulana Madrasi is probably just as ignorant of the traditions he claims are > his own as Praveen Togadia, the firebrand leader of the Vishwa Hindu > Parishad, is. They would probably make an excellent couple, locked happily > together within their private closet of paranoia. > Meanwhile, let us hope that Veerappa Moily's supposed u-turn is only a > digression, and that the provisions in Section 377 that criminalize the > behaviour of consenting adults in private (which should not be the business > of the state)  are consigned finally to where they belong - the dustbin of > history. > And congratulations to all those who paraded on the streets of Delhi, > Bangalore, Madras and Calcutta. The future belongs to you (and us all) not > to the likes of Maulana Madrasi. > regards > Shuddha > On 29-Jun-09, at 3:54 PM, M Javed wrote: > > Gay sex against tenets of Islam: Deoband > 29 Jun 2009, 1353 hrs IST, PTI > MUZAFFARNAGAR, UP: A leading Islamic seminary on Monday opposed > Centre's move to repeal a controversial section of the penal law which > criminalises homosexuality saying unnatural sex is against the tenets of > Islam. > "Homosexuality is an offence under Shariat Law and haram (prohibited) > in Islam," deputy vice chancellor of the Darul Uloom Deoband Maulana > Abdul Khalik Madrasi said. > Madrasi also asked the government not to repeal section 377 of IPC > which criminalises homosexuality. > His objection came a day after law minister Veerappa Moily said a > decision on repealing the section would be taken only after > considering concerns of all sections of the society, including > religious groups like the church. > Terming gay activities as crime, Maulana Salim Kasmi, vice-president > of the All-India Muslim Personal Law Board (AIMPLB), said > homosexuality is punishable under Islamic law and section 377 of IPC > should not be tampered. > Maulana Mohd Sufiyan Kasmi, an AIMPLB member, and Mufti Zulfikar, > president of Uttar Pradesh Imam Organisation have also expressed > similar views on the issue. > Kasmi said it would be harmful for the society to legalise gay sex. > Buoyed by the news that the Centre is considering repealing the > controversial section of the IPC, members of the gay community on > Sunday held parades in several cities. > http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/Gay-sex-against-tenets-of-Islam-Deoband/articleshow/4715517.cms > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with subscribe > in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> > > Shuddhabrata Sengupta > The Sarai Programme at CSDS > Raqs Media Collective > shuddha at sarai.net > www.sarai.net > www.raqsmediacollective.net > > _________________________________________ reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. Critiques & Collaborations To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with subscribe in the subject header. To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> From kauladityaraj at gmail.com Tue Jun 30 16:34:30 2009 From: kauladityaraj at gmail.com (Aditya Raj Kaul) Date: Tue, 30 Jun 2009 16:34:30 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Banned Pakistani groups 'expand' Message-ID: <6353c690906300404x60f2c051qafdae3725e29de7f@mail.gmail.com> Banned Pakistani groups 'expand' *By Syed Shoaib Hasan * * BBC News, Islamabad * Link - http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/south_asia/8125039.stm *Militant groups banned in Pakistan are expanding operations and recruitment in Pakistani-run Kashmir, according to a government report seen by the BBC.* The observations are from a detailed secret report submitted to the region's government on the groups' activities in the city of Muzaffarabad and elsewhere. Pakistan banned the groups in 2002 after an attack on India's parliament brought the two states close to war. A senior Pakistani minister denied that such a report had been submitted. "No such report has come before the government which shows that these organisations have revived their activities," Qamaruzaman Qaira, Pakistan's Information Minister, told the BBC. "However, if the report was submitted by a secret agency then that is another matter altogether," he said. Pakistan's allies, including the US, have expressed fears regarding the groups' proliferation and their close links to al-Qaeda. *'Cover for militancy'* A copy of the report, which was submitted by regional police to Pakistan-administered Kashmir's cabinet on 25 March, was obtained by the BBC in Islamabad. It finds that three banned groups - Harkatul Mujahideen, Jaish-e-Mohammad and Lashkar-e-Taiba - are active in Muzaffarabad. Harkatul Mujahideen and Jaish-e-Mohammad are said to be planning to open madrassas, or Islamic schools, in the city where Lashkar-e-Taiba is already operating a madrassa. "No officials are allowed to enter these premises to gather any sort of information," the report says. "We fear these madrassas maybe a cover for furthering militant activities." The report also elaborates how the militant groups are growing in size and number across Kashmir. It especially mentions the Neelum district, where they are said to be at their most powerful. The report says the militants are involved in the logging of trees, one of the most lucrative trades in the region. They have also set up offices in the Kandal Shahi market in Neelum, where they have become a major law and order headache, the report says. The report mentions an incident which led to the killing of some locals and a resulting stand-off with the militants. "The situation was only resolved by the intervention of the local administrator and senior army officials," the report says. It then goes on to say that the authorities should take up the matter with the intelligence agency responsible for the militants. The report says officials from that agency should relocate the militants to some area near the border, otherwise clashes with locals could take place. *Deadly groups* The report comes as Pakistan's security forces are involved in a fully fledged operation against the Taliban. The militants are said to be backed up by the jihadi organisations, especially the Jaish-e-Mohammad and the Harkatul Mujahideen. Jaish-e-Mohammad has been involved in several assassination attempts on top Pakistani officials, including former President Pervez Musharraf. Its members were also responsible for the kidnapping and murder of Wall Street journalist Daniel Pearl, and are said to have carried out the attack on the Indian parliament. Harkatul Mujahideen is the Jaish's parent organisation and one of the largest militant groups in the world. Lashkar-e-Taiba remains the prime suspect in the Mumbai attacks and is India's enemy number one. The charity Jamaat-ud-Dawa has been accused of being a front for Lashkar-e-Taiba - but it denies any links with militants. Local people have confirmed to the BBC that there has been a great increase in militant activity in the regions mentioned. "These people are being protected here," said Raja Faisal Majeed, a lawyer living in a village near where some of the militant groups have set up base. "Sometimes they operate under the guise of a charity, sometimes as a school. We have protested against them to no avail." The deputy chief of Jamaat-ud-Dawa, Abdurehman Makki, told the BBC that the group had not purchased any properties in the area or been involved in any alteracations with locals in the area. Despite the fact that the groups mentioned in the report are banned under Pakistan's terrorism act, it does not advocate any action against them other than to keep an eye on their activities. From shuddha at sarai.net Tue Jun 30 16:42:02 2009 From: shuddha at sarai.net (Shuddhabrata Sengupta) Date: Tue, 30 Jun 2009 16:42:02 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Who gives muftis the right to give fatwas? In-Reply-To: <493810.37075.qm@web57206.mail.re3.yahoo.com> References: <493810.37075.qm@web57206.mail.re3.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <7FC844CD-ED7A-4155-8330-D7208A398D50@sarai.net> Dear Kshmendra, Actually, the Quran has no explicit injunction against homosexuality as such. There is a number of references to the story of Lut (Lot, in the Jewish and Christian tradition) which can be read more appropriately as an injunction against rape. Specifically male homosexual rape. The sin in question concerned the people of Sodom seeking to rape two angels who had taken shelter with Lut. Queer muslims, and I mean queer believing muslims, through the centuries have interpreted this as an injunction against violence based on lust, not on any act that implies love and consent. And in any case, the quran is completely silent on the question of lesbianism, There are stray references to same sex love in the ahadith, most are derogatory, but at least one is positive. And since the ahadith are field open to doubt, questioning and interpretation, one can choose for oneself, whether one relies on the negative, or the tolerant injunction. Finally, Islam, uniquely amongst the worlds religions, together with some forms of Hindu thought and practice, is positive about the recreational and pleasurable aspects of human sexuality. There are numerous references in the scriptural tradition in Islam to the duty, and sacredness of pleasure, for its own sake. This is quite different from the orthodox Christian view, which for instance sees all sex except for the purposes of reproduction as being sinful. Again, queer Muslims, historically have had the freedom they have had, primarily because of this liberal view of the positive function of sexual pleasure, outside sexuality. This is not to deny that many Muslim theologians have been rampant homophobes. And that most societies governed by some form or the other of Islamic law prohibit homosexuality. But we must always remember, that at least culturally, the Mullah, in most traditional Muslim societies, is often a figure of affectionate fun, precisely because he is distracted by the sight of young men genuflecting, bending, in prayer. We must also remember that the largest Muslim country (by population) Indonesia, and Turkey (which has an overwhelming Muslim majority) are countries where homosexuality is legal. Most Indonesian and Turkish homosexuals would be horrified if they were told that they are not good practicing Muslims. best Shuddha people On 30-Jun-09, at 4:11 PM, Kshmendra Kaul wrote: > Dear Javed > > You cannot be a "Muslim" and at the same time not be against > homosexuality or be supportive of homosexuality. > > A "Muslim" must follow the injunction of the Quran. Leaving aside > for the moment the injunctions derived from the Hadeeth, in the > Quran itself there specific advisories and castigations against > homosexuality and any other sexual preference other than bi-sexual > and that too only with the spouse. > > Kshmendra > > --- On Tue, 6/30/09, M Javed wrote: > > > From: M Javed > Subject: Re: [Reader-list] Who gives muftis the right to give fatwas? > To: "Shuddhabrata Sengupta" , "sarai list" > > Date: Tuesday, June 30, 2009, 3:46 PM > > > Dear Shuddhabrata > Actually I have a slight digression from your answer. I don't care > what fatwas the muftis give within their own coterie (I'm sure > homosexual behaviour exists in the Deoband madrasa too), but the > problem comes when this news is flashed on the front-page: it > basically sends a clear signal that "Muslims" in general are against > homo-sexuality and this is yet another example of how bigoted the > entire community is, and there are absolutely no liberals (or > queer-friendly) people among the Muslims and so on, which is not the > case. In a way, any controversial fatwa from the Deoband (whichever > damn topic) is taken by the media as a hot saucy news to be flashed to > show the backwardness of Muslims. But my question is (especially to > the mainstream media), do these damn fatwas really represent the > entire Muslim community? Are they so important that you have to flash > them as headlines. > > My second minor difference is: when you say "We are not governed by > the Shariat, and I hope we never will be". I am not sure if Shariat is > all evil. Although I don't practice it strictly, but I know it has > many good things in it which make at least the good part of Islam > alive. Don't see it only through the eyes of the Taliban. Whether we > get governed by the shariat or not, I hope we could at least adopt the > good things about it. And Shariat is not a fixed set of rules; it can > be and should be open for interpretation, which these muftis have > stopped doing. > > Thanks any way. > > Javed > > > On Mon, Jun 29, 2009 at 10:53 PM, Shuddhabrata > Sengupta wrote: >> Dear Javed, >> Thank you for forwarding this. I don't know who gives these muftis >> and >> tuftis the right to give fatwas, I think they give it to >> themselves. And >> since they routinely issue fatwas on all manner of ridiculous >> matters, we >> might as well treat this one too with the lack of seriousness that it >> deserves. >> We are not governed by the Shariat, and I hope we never will be. >> Since we >> are not governed by the Shariat, it hardly matters whether or not >> Maulana >> Abdul Khalik Madrasi thinks homosexuality is an offence under >> Shariat Law. >> Not even the relevant (and anachronistic, misogynist and patrarchal) >> sections of Personal Law in matters of marriage and inheritance >> that govern >> the lives of Indian Muslims have anything to say about sexual >> relations in >> private between consenting adults. So, not even from the completely >> unacceptabe (to me) standpoint of defending a separate civil code for >> Muslims is it relevant to discuss the fate of Section 377. Maulana >> Madrasi >> is barking up the wrong legal tree. >> Finally, a small historical digression. Section 377 was introduced >> by the >> British Colonial Administration in India. Which, as far as i >> recall, was not >> exactly a model Islamic state. In fact, the British Colonial >> authorities >> presided over the decline and destruction of 'nominally' Muslim >> political >> power in India. if, for the roughly seven hundred years preceding >> the advent >> of British rule in India, when the territory happened to be ruled >> largely by >> Muslim rulers, (some of whom claimed to be guided by the Shariat) >> it was not >> found necessary to invoke a draconian law like section 377, are we >> to then >> understand that the British Colonial authority was more 'Islamic' >> than the >> Mughal rulers, than the rulers of the Delhi sultanate, and many >> other kings >> and princes of a Muslim persuasion. >> And finally, how exactly would we remember a figure like the great >> Ghazi of >> Islam - Mahmud of Ghazna and his love for Ayaz, or Razia Sultana >> and her >> love for women, or the distinctly queer ecstasies of Amir Khusrau and >> Sarmad. Each one of these people saw themselves as devout Muslim. >> And there >> was nothing unusual in their being queer Muslims. Islamicate >> societies all >> over the world have been historically far more tolerant of various >> different >> kinds of same-sex relationships both male and female, and transgender >> identities, than societies largely anchored in Christian values >> have been. >> Islam is a sex positive religion. It celebrates the dignity, >> beauty and >> diversity of the human body and all its desires. There is (and >> always has >> been) a strong case for a queer theology of liberation that is >> rooted within >> the Islamicate cultural universe, and it has had a long history, >> and it will >> have a long future. >> Maulana Madrasi is probably just as ignorant of the traditions he >> claims are >> his own as Praveen Togadia, the firebrand leader of the Vishwa Hindu >> Parishad, is. They would probably make an excellent couple, locked >> happily >> together within their private closet of paranoia. >> Meanwhile, let us hope that Veerappa Moily's supposed u-turn is >> only a >> digression, and that the provisions in Section 377 that >> criminalize the >> behaviour of consenting adults in private (which should not be the >> business >> of the state) are consigned finally to where they belong - the >> dustbin of >> history. >> And congratulations to all those who paraded on the streets of Delhi, >> Bangalore, Madras and Calcutta. The future belongs to you (and us >> all) not >> to the likes of Maulana Madrasi. >> regards >> Shuddha >> On 29-Jun-09, at 3:54 PM, M Javed wrote: >> >> Gay sex against tenets of Islam: Deoband >> 29 Jun 2009, 1353 hrs IST, PTI >> MUZAFFARNAGAR, UP: A leading Islamic seminary on Monday opposed >> Centre's move to repeal a controversial section of the penal law >> which >> criminalises homosexuality saying unnatural sex is against the >> tenets of >> Islam. >> "Homosexuality is an offence under Shariat Law and haram (prohibited) >> in Islam," deputy vice chancellor of the Darul Uloom Deoband Maulana >> Abdul Khalik Madrasi said. >> Madrasi also asked the government not to repeal section 377 of IPC >> which criminalises homosexuality. >> His objection came a day after law minister Veerappa Moily said a >> decision on repealing the section would be taken only after >> considering concerns of all sections of the society, including >> religious groups like the church. >> Terming gay activities as crime, Maulana Salim Kasmi, vice-president >> of the All-India Muslim Personal Law Board (AIMPLB), said >> homosexuality is punishable under Islamic law and section 377 of IPC >> should not be tampered. >> Maulana Mohd Sufiyan Kasmi, an AIMPLB member, and Mufti Zulfikar, >> president of Uttar Pradesh Imam Organisation have also expressed >> similar views on the issue. >> Kasmi said it would be harmful for the society to legalise gay sex. >> Buoyed by the news that the Centre is considering repealing the >> controversial section of the IPC, members of the gay community on >> Sunday held parades in several cities. >> http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/Gay-sex-against-tenets-of-Islam- >> Deoband/articleshow/4715517.cms >> _________________________________________ >> reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. >> Critiques & Collaborations >> To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with >> subscribe >> in the subject header. >> To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list >> List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> >> >> Shuddhabrata Sengupta >> The Sarai Programme at CSDS >> Raqs Media Collective >> shuddha at sarai.net >> www.sarai.net >> www.raqsmediacollective.net >> >> > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > subscribe in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> > > > > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > subscribe in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> Shuddhabrata Sengupta The Sarai Programme at CSDS Raqs Media Collective shuddha at sarai.net www.sarai.net www.raqsmediacollective.net From pawan.durani at gmail.com Tue Jun 30 16:52:30 2009 From: pawan.durani at gmail.com (Pawan Durani) Date: Tue, 30 Jun 2009 16:52:30 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Who gives muftis the right to give fatwas? In-Reply-To: <7FC844CD-ED7A-4155-8330-D7208A398D50@sarai.net> References: <493810.37075.qm@web57206.mail.re3.yahoo.com> <7FC844CD-ED7A-4155-8330-D7208A398D50@sarai.net> Message-ID: <6b79f1a70906300422y1ad2bce6ia12fe77ff2c7cb76@mail.gmail.com> ON THE OTHER HAND Although the Qu'ran does not have verse explicitly in favor of homosexuality, it does have verses which show awareness of male beauty. These are promises made to Muslim men who make it to Heaven. SURA LII:24 "And there shall wait on them [the Muslim men] young boys of their own, as fair as virgin pearls." SURA LXXVI:19 "They shall be attended by boys graced with eternal youth, who will seem like scattered pearls to the beholders." Source : http://www.fordham.edu/halsall/pwh/quran-homo.html On Tue, Jun 30, 2009 at 4:42 PM, Shuddhabrata Sengupta wrote: > Dear Kshmendra, > > Actually, the Quran has no explicit injunction against homosexuality > as such. There is a number of references to the story of Lut (Lot, in > the Jewish and Christian tradition) which can be read more > appropriately as an injunction against rape. Specifically male > homosexual rape. The sin in question concerned the people of Sodom > seeking to rape two angels who had taken shelter with Lut. > > Queer muslims, and I mean queer believing muslims, through the > centuries have interpreted this as an injunction against violence > based on lust, not on any act that implies love and consent. And in > any case, the quran is completely silent on the question of > lesbianism, There are stray references to same sex love in the > ahadith, most are derogatory, but at least one is positive. And since > the ahadith are field open to doubt, questioning and interpretation, > one can choose for oneself, whether one relies on the negative, or > the tolerant injunction. > > Finally, Islam, uniquely amongst the worlds religions, together with > some forms of Hindu thought and practice, is positive about the > recreational and pleasurable aspects of human sexuality. There are > numerous references in the scriptural tradition in Islam to the duty, > and sacredness of pleasure, for its own sake. This is quite different > from the orthodox Christian view, which for instance sees all sex > except for the purposes of reproduction as being sinful. > > Again, queer Muslims, historically have had the freedom they have > had, primarily because of this liberal view of the positive function > of sexual pleasure, outside sexuality. > > This is not to deny that many Muslim theologians have been rampant > homophobes. And that most societies governed by some form or the > other of Islamic law prohibit homosexuality. But we must always > remember, that at least culturally, the Mullah, in most traditional > Muslim societies, is often a figure of affectionate fun, precisely > because he is distracted by the sight of young men genuflecting, > bending, in prayer. We must also remember that the largest Muslim > country (by population) Indonesia, and Turkey (which has an > overwhelming Muslim majority) are countries where homosexuality is > legal. Most Indonesian and Turkish homosexuals would be horrified if > they were told that they are not good practicing Muslims. > > best > > Shuddha > > > > > > > people > On 30-Jun-09, at 4:11 PM, Kshmendra Kaul wrote: > >> Dear Javed >> >> You cannot be a "Muslim" and at the same time not be against >> homosexuality or be supportive of homosexuality. >> >> A "Muslim" must follow the injunction of the Quran. Leaving aside >> for the moment the injunctions derived from the Hadeeth, in the >> Quran itself there specific advisories and castigations against >> homosexuality and any other sexual preference other than bi-sexual >> and that too only with the spouse. >> >> Kshmendra >> >> --- On Tue, 6/30/09, M Javed wrote: >> >> >> From: M Javed >> Subject: Re: [Reader-list] Who gives muftis the right to give fatwas? >> To: "Shuddhabrata Sengupta" , "sarai list" >> >> Date: Tuesday, June 30, 2009, 3:46 PM >> >> >> Dear Shuddhabrata >> Actually I have a slight digression from your answer. I don't care >> what fatwas the muftis give within their own coterie (I'm sure >> homosexual behaviour exists in the Deoband madrasa too), but the >> problem comes when this news is flashed on the front-page: it >> basically sends a clear signal that "Muslims" in general are against >> homo-sexuality and this is yet another example of how bigoted the >> entire community is, and there are absolutely no liberals (or >> queer-friendly) people among the Muslims and so on, which is not the >> case. In a way, any controversial fatwa from the Deoband (whichever >> damn topic) is taken by the media as a hot saucy news to be flashed to >> show the backwardness of Muslims. But my question is (especially to >> the mainstream media), do these damn fatwas really represent the >> entire Muslim community? Are they so important that you have to flash >> them as headlines. >> >> My second minor difference is: when you say "We are not governed by >> the Shariat, and I hope we never will be". I am not sure if Shariat is >> all evil. Although I don't practice it strictly, but I know it has >> many good things in it which make at least the good part of Islam >> alive. Don't see it only through the eyes of the Taliban. Whether we >> get governed by the shariat or not, I hope we could at least adopt the >> good things about it. And Shariat is not a fixed set of rules; it can >> be and should be open for interpretation, which these muftis have >> stopped doing. >> >> Thanks any way. >> >> Javed >> >> >> On Mon, Jun 29, 2009 at 10:53 PM, Shuddhabrata >> Sengupta wrote: >>> Dear Javed, >>> Thank you for forwarding this. I don't know who gives these muftis >>> and >>> tuftis the right to give fatwas, I think they give it to >>> themselves. And >>> since they routinely issue fatwas on all manner of ridiculous >>> matters, we >>> might as well treat this one too with the lack of seriousness that it >>> deserves. >>> We are not governed by the Shariat, and I hope we never will be. >>> Since we >>> are not governed by the Shariat, it hardly matters whether or not >>> Maulana >>> Abdul Khalik Madrasi thinks homosexuality is an offence under >>> Shariat Law. >>> Not even the relevant (and anachronistic, misogynist and patrarchal) >>> sections of Personal Law in matters of marriage and inheritance >>> that govern >>> the lives of Indian Muslims have anything to say about sexual >>> relations in >>> private between consenting adults. So, not even from the completely >>> unacceptabe (to me) standpoint of defending a separate civil code for >>> Muslims is it relevant to discuss the fate of Section 377. Maulana >>> Madrasi >>> is barking up the wrong legal tree. >>> Finally, a small historical digression. Section 377 was introduced >>> by the >>> British Colonial Administration in India. Which, as far as i >>> recall, was not >>> exactly a model Islamic state. In fact, the British Colonial >>> authorities >>> presided over the decline and destruction of 'nominally' Muslim >>> political >>> power in India. if, for the roughly seven hundred years preceding >>> the advent >>> of British rule in India, when the territory happened to be ruled >>> largely by >>> Muslim rulers, (some of whom claimed to be guided by the Shariat) >>> it was not >>> found necessary to invoke a draconian law like section 377, are we >>> to then >>> understand that the British Colonial authority was more 'Islamic' >>> than the >>> Mughal rulers, than the rulers of the Delhi sultanate, and many >>> other kings >>> and princes of a Muslim persuasion. >>> And finally, how exactly would we remember a figure like the great >>> Ghazi of >>> Islam - Mahmud of Ghazna and his love for Ayaz, or Razia Sultana >>> and her >>> love for women, or the distinctly queer ecstasies of Amir Khusrau and >>> Sarmad. Each one of these people saw themselves as devout Muslim. >>> And there >>> was nothing unusual in their being queer Muslims. Islamicate >>> societies all >>> over the world have been historically far more tolerant of various >>> different >>> kinds of same-sex relationships both male and female, and transgender >>> identities, than societies largely anchored in Christian values >>> have been. >>> Islam is a sex positive religion. It celebrates the dignity, >>> beauty and >>> diversity of the human body and all its desires. There is (and >>> always has >>> been) a strong case for a queer theology of liberation that is >>> rooted within >>> the Islamicate cultural universe, and it has had a long history, >>> and it will >>> have a long future. >>> Maulana Madrasi is probably just as ignorant of the traditions he >>> claims are >>> his own as Praveen Togadia, the firebrand leader of the Vishwa Hindu >>> Parishad, is. They would probably make an excellent couple, locked >>> happily >>> together within their private closet of paranoia. >>> Meanwhile, let us hope that Veerappa Moily's supposed u-turn is >>> only a >>> digression, and that the provisions in Section 377 that >>> criminalize the >>> behaviour of consenting adults in private (which should not be the >>> business >>> of the state)  are consigned finally to where they belong - the >>> dustbin of >>> history. >>> And congratulations to all those who paraded on the streets of Delhi, >>> Bangalore, Madras and Calcutta. The future belongs to you (and us >>> all) not >>> to the likes of Maulana Madrasi. >>> regards >>> Shuddha >>> On 29-Jun-09, at 3:54 PM, M Javed wrote: >>> >>> Gay sex against tenets of Islam: Deoband >>> 29 Jun 2009, 1353 hrs IST, PTI >>> MUZAFFARNAGAR, UP: A leading Islamic seminary on Monday opposed >>> Centre's move to repeal a controversial section of the penal law >>> which >>> criminalises homosexuality saying unnatural sex is against the >>> tenets of >>> Islam. >>> "Homosexuality is an offence under Shariat Law and haram (prohibited) >>> in Islam," deputy vice chancellor of the Darul Uloom Deoband Maulana >>> Abdul Khalik Madrasi said. >>> Madrasi also asked the government not to repeal section 377 of IPC >>> which criminalises homosexuality. >>> His objection came a day after law minister Veerappa Moily said a >>> decision on repealing the section would be taken only after >>> considering concerns of all sections of the society, including >>> religious groups like the church. >>> Terming gay activities as crime, Maulana Salim Kasmi, vice-president >>> of the All-India Muslim Personal Law Board (AIMPLB), said >>> homosexuality is punishable under Islamic law and section 377 of IPC >>> should not be tampered. >>> Maulana Mohd Sufiyan Kasmi, an AIMPLB member, and Mufti Zulfikar, >>> president of Uttar Pradesh Imam Organisation have also expressed >>> similar views on the issue. >>> Kasmi said it would be harmful for the society to legalise gay sex. >>> Buoyed by the news that the Centre is considering repealing the >>> controversial section of the IPC, members of the gay community on >>> Sunday held parades in several cities. >>> http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/Gay-sex-against-tenets-of-Islam- >>> Deoband/articleshow/4715517.cms >>> _________________________________________ >>> reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. >>> Critiques & Collaborations >>> To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with >>> subscribe >>> in the subject header. >>> To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list >>> List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> >>> >>> Shuddhabrata Sengupta >>> The Sarai Programme at CSDS >>> Raqs Media Collective >>> shuddha at sarai.net >>> www.sarai.net >>> www.raqsmediacollective.net >>> >>> >> _________________________________________ >> reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. >> Critiques & Collaborations >> To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with >> subscribe in the subject header. >> To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list >> List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> >> >> >> >> _________________________________________ >> reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. >> Critiques & Collaborations >> To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with >> subscribe in the subject header. >> To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list >> List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> > > Shuddhabrata Sengupta > The Sarai Programme at CSDS > Raqs Media Collective > shuddha at sarai.net > www.sarai.net > www.raqsmediacollective.net > > > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with subscribe in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> From 2tahamehmood at googlemail.com Tue Jun 30 17:23:41 2009 From: 2tahamehmood at googlemail.com (Taha Mehmood) Date: Tue, 30 Jun 2009 12:53:41 +0100 Subject: [Reader-list] Is terrorism growing because we lack a UID? - 133 Message-ID: <65be9bf40906300453o5d9677d0la78c22edc6143bf6@mail.gmail.com> Dear All This is perhaps the first instance of reasoned questioning of the UID program by media organization. The questions related to UID asked in the article below reflect a healthy skepticism not only about the purported benefits of such a scheme but also about the its foundational logic. I.5 Lakh crore- is the sum of money which will be transferred in the name of protecting this nation from ' illegal immigrants' and 'providing benefits' to the poorest to the poor. When most of the Indians live undocumented lives, one wonders how would this exercise be carried out? One also thinks why some prominent members of the main-stream media is in awe of Nandan Nilekeni Saheb. We recently saw Rajdeep Sardesai of CNN-IBN showering praise to Nilekeni Saheb's vision for India which includes a national identity card. Regards Taha http://news.in.msn.com/columns/article.aspx?cp-documentid=3065458 Is terrorism growing because we lack a UID? To establish my nationality as an India, I do have multiple ID cards issued by various government agencies like the election identity card, driving license, passport, PAN and what not. But the UPA-II government feels these cards are not enough and I, like all other citizens of the country, must possess one more card, that's the Unique Identification(UID) card. The government seeks to achieve three-fold objectives by issuing the UID cards: 1. Enhance national security; 2. Check illegal immigration, particularly from Bangladesh; 3.Ensure that the benefits of government welfare schemes reach the targeted sections. Regarding the first objective, government thinks that UID will ensure identification of terrorists and thus curb the menace. But is cross-border terrorism growing just because we don't have a UID? The failure of the intelligence machinery in India, absence of a well-trained anti-terror force, lack of aggressiveness in India's policy towards Pakistan and, above all, the overt support received by terror outfits from the Pakistani regime are some of the reasons why terrorism is growing? All these factors were as clear as daylight in the recent Mumbai attacks. How can UID curb terrorism if these factors are not addressed by the government? About illegal immigration, the successive Central governments have been culpably indifferent to this problem, so much so most Bengladeshi immigrants in Delhi and Kolkata have managed to get even ration cards and electoral identity cards! In some constituencies, the illegal immigrant voters are said to be so strong as to determine the winner and the loser. If the illegal immigrants can manage to get ration cards and election ID cards from the administration, why can't they get a UID? So the problem here is rampant corruption in administration, not the absence of a citizen identification mechanism. Why do the benefits of government schemes not reach the targeted sections? This is because the lion's share of the allocations for such schemes are siphoned off by the corrupt politicians and bureaucrats. This politician-bureaucrat nexus is responsible for irregularities prevailing in the public distribution system. If the government cannot break this powerful nexus and eliminate corruption, how can just a UID card ensure proper distribution of government's welfare package? There are gross discrepancies in the issue of various identity cards in force now. It is no secret that a major portion of the BPL(Below the Poverty Line) cards issued to avail of subsidised food commodities through the PDS is bogus. A report states that there are 97 million BPL cards in the country whereas the number of BPL families come to only 58 million. Nandan Nilekani, who has been appointed chairman of the Unique Identification Authority of India (UIDAI), himself mentions in his celebrated book `Imagining India' that the number of BPL cards in his home state of Karnataka exceeds the total population of the state. This is because the cards are issued indiscriminately, thus denying the benefits of PDS to the really deserving. The story is the same as regards an estimated 65 million kisan credit cards in circulation in the country. How does the government propose to prevent similar fraud in the issue of national ID card? Where is the guarantee that the same corrupt forces which took advantage of the BPL cards won't abuse the UID also? Is the government willing to give a public commitment that the issue of UID will be transparent and corruption-free? The entire ID card project is estimated to cost around Rs 1.5 lakh crore. No doubt, it will offer a multi-billion dollar business opportunity for the domestic technology players, with the first phase of the project — which will cover ultra urban, urban, and semi-urban populations — alone offering a Rs 6,500 crore business opportunity. But the business part apart, is such a mammoth spending justified? If this ambitious programme falters at the implementation level like other such ID cards did, what will be the drain on the public exchequer? Rather than embarking on a new identification card at such colossal cost, shouldn't the government have made an honest attempt to plug the loopholes in the present system of issuing ID cards? Did the government set the right priority in taking up the UID project? Only time will tell. Speak up: Do you think UID will serve the intended purpose? From c.anupam at gmail.com Tue Jun 30 17:57:53 2009 From: c.anupam at gmail.com (anupam chakravartty) Date: Tue, 30 Jun 2009 17:57:53 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Is terrorism growing because we lack a UID? - 133 In-Reply-To: <65be9bf40906300453o5d9677d0la78c22edc6143bf6@mail.gmail.com> References: <65be9bf40906300453o5d9677d0la78c22edc6143bf6@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <341380d00906300527u3b67a21fsaf26a624297c246a@mail.gmail.com> For diamond workers in Surat, however this Unique I D card remains a suggestion. Is it because the government has to give the benefits? http://www.indianexpress.com/news/icard-for-diamond-workers-remains-a-suggest/459760/ thanks anupam On 6/30/09, Taha Mehmood <2tahamehmood at googlemail.com> wrote: > > Dear All > > This is perhaps the first instance of reasoned questioning of the UID > program by media organization. The questions related to UID asked in > the article below reflect a healthy skepticism not only about the > purported benefits of such a scheme but also about the its > foundational logic. > > I.5 Lakh crore- is the sum of money which will be transferred in the > name of protecting this nation from ' illegal immigrants' and > 'providing benefits' to the poorest to the poor. When most of the > Indians live undocumented lives, one wonders how would this exercise > be carried out? One also thinks why some prominent members of the > main-stream media is in awe of Nandan Nilekeni Saheb. We recently saw > Rajdeep Sardesai of CNN-IBN showering praise to Nilekeni Saheb's > vision for India which includes a national identity card. > > Regards > > Taha > > > > > > http://news.in.msn.com/columns/article.aspx?cp-documentid=3065458 > > Is terrorism growing because we lack a UID? > > To establish my nationality as an India, I do have multiple ID cards > issued by various government agencies like the election identity card, > driving license, passport, PAN and what not. But the UPA-II government > feels these cards are not enough and I, like all other citizens of the > country, must possess one more card, that's the Unique > Identification(UID) card. > > The government seeks to achieve three-fold objectives by issuing the > UID cards: 1. Enhance national security; 2. Check illegal immigration, > particularly from Bangladesh; 3.Ensure that the benefits of government > welfare schemes reach the targeted sections. Regarding the first > objective, government thinks that UID will ensure identification of > terrorists and thus curb the menace. But is cross-border terrorism > growing just because we don't have a UID? > > The failure of the intelligence machinery in India, absence of a > well-trained anti-terror force, lack of aggressiveness in India's > policy towards Pakistan and, above all, the overt support received by > terror outfits from the Pakistani regime are some of the reasons why > terrorism is growing? All these factors were as clear as daylight in > the recent Mumbai attacks. How can UID curb terrorism if these factors > are not addressed by the government? > > About illegal immigration, the successive Central governments have > been culpably indifferent to this problem, so much so most Bengladeshi > immigrants in Delhi and Kolkata have managed to get even ration cards > and electoral identity cards! In some constituencies, the illegal > immigrant voters are said to be so strong as to determine the winner > and the loser. If the illegal immigrants can manage to get ration > cards and election ID cards from the administration, why can't they > get a UID? So the problem here is rampant corruption in > administration, not the absence of a citizen identification mechanism. > > Why do the benefits of government schemes not reach the targeted > sections? This is because the lion's share of the allocations for such > schemes are siphoned off by the corrupt politicians and bureaucrats. > This politician-bureaucrat nexus is responsible for irregularities > prevailing in the public distribution system. If the government cannot > break this powerful nexus and eliminate corruption, how can just a UID > card ensure proper distribution of government's welfare package? > > There are gross discrepancies in the issue of various identity cards > in force now. It is no secret that a major portion of the BPL(Below > the Poverty Line) cards issued to avail of subsidised food commodities > through the PDS is bogus. A report states that there are 97 million > BPL cards in the country whereas the number of BPL families come to > only 58 million. Nandan Nilekani, who has been appointed chairman of > the Unique Identification Authority of India (UIDAI), himself mentions > in his celebrated book `Imagining India' that the number of BPL cards > in his home state of Karnataka exceeds the total population of the > state. This is because the cards are issued indiscriminately, thus > denying the benefits of PDS to the really deserving. The story is the > same as regards an estimated 65 million kisan credit cards in > circulation in the country. > > How does the government propose to prevent similar fraud in the issue > of national ID card? Where is the guarantee that the same corrupt > forces which took advantage of the BPL cards won't abuse the UID also? > Is the government willing to give a public commitment that the issue > of UID will be transparent and corruption-free? > > The entire ID card project is estimated to cost around Rs 1.5 lakh > crore. No doubt, it will offer a multi-billion dollar business > opportunity for the domestic technology players, with the first phase > of the project — which will cover ultra urban, urban, and semi-urban > populations — alone offering a Rs 6,500 crore business opportunity. > But the business part apart, is such a mammoth spending justified? If > this ambitious programme falters at the implementation level like > other such ID cards did, what will be the drain on the public > exchequer? Rather than embarking on a new identification card at such > colossal cost, shouldn't the government have made an honest attempt to > plug the loopholes in the present system of issuing ID cards? Did the > government set the right priority in taking up the UID project? Only > time will tell. > > Speak up: Do you think UID will serve the intended purpose? > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > subscribe in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> From c.anupam at gmail.com Tue Jun 30 18:01:15 2009 From: c.anupam at gmail.com (anupam chakravartty) Date: Tue, 30 Jun 2009 18:01:15 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Is terrorism growing because we lack a UID? - 133 In-Reply-To: <341380d00906300527u3b67a21fsaf26a624297c246a@mail.gmail.com> References: <65be9bf40906300453o5d9677d0la78c22edc6143bf6@mail.gmail.com> <341380d00906300527u3b67a21fsaf26a624297c246a@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <341380d00906300531w1fe8631fg9daae3d60f54407a@mail.gmail.com> Identity cards are also needed for social security, then why are these diamond workers not given these cards, while they are planning to give the ID cards to coastal fish farmers. http://www.expressindia.com/latest-news/social-security-net-can-do-little-for-diamond-workers/423365/ On 6/30/09, anupam chakravartty wrote: > > For diamond workers in Surat, however this Unique I D card remains a > suggestion. Is it because the government has to give the benefits? > > > http://www.indianexpress.com/news/icard-for-diamond-workers-remains-a-suggest/459760/ > > thanks anupam > > > On 6/30/09, Taha Mehmood <2tahamehmood at googlemail.com> wrote: >> >> Dear All >> >> This is perhaps the first instance of reasoned questioning of the UID >> program by media organization. The questions related to UID asked in >> the article below reflect a healthy skepticism not only about the >> purported benefits of such a scheme but also about the its >> foundational logic. >> >> I.5 Lakh crore- is the sum of money which will be transferred in the >> name of protecting this nation from ' illegal immigrants' and >> 'providing benefits' to the poorest to the poor. When most of the >> Indians live undocumented lives, one wonders how would this exercise >> be carried out? One also thinks why some prominent members of the >> main-stream media is in awe of Nandan Nilekeni Saheb. We recently saw >> Rajdeep Sardesai of CNN-IBN showering praise to Nilekeni Saheb's >> vision for India which includes a national identity card. >> >> Regards >> >> Taha >> >> >> >> >> >> http://news.in.msn.com/columns/article.aspx?cp-documentid=3065458 >> >> Is terrorism growing because we lack a UID? >> >> To establish my nationality as an India, I do have multiple ID cards >> issued by various government agencies like the election identity card, >> driving license, passport, PAN and what not. But the UPA-II government >> feels these cards are not enough and I, like all other citizens of the >> country, must possess one more card, that's the Unique >> Identification(UID) card. >> >> The government seeks to achieve three-fold objectives by issuing the >> UID cards: 1. Enhance national security; 2. Check illegal immigration, >> particularly from Bangladesh; 3.Ensure that the benefits of government >> welfare schemes reach the targeted sections. Regarding the first >> objective, government thinks that UID will ensure identification of >> terrorists and thus curb the menace. But is cross-border terrorism >> growing just because we don't have a UID? >> >> The failure of the intelligence machinery in India, absence of a >> well-trained anti-terror force, lack of aggressiveness in India's >> policy towards Pakistan and, above all, the overt support received by >> terror outfits from the Pakistani regime are some of the reasons why >> terrorism is growing? All these factors were as clear as daylight in >> the recent Mumbai attacks. How can UID curb terrorism if these factors >> are not addressed by the government? >> >> About illegal immigration, the successive Central governments have >> been culpably indifferent to this problem, so much so most Bengladeshi >> immigrants in Delhi and Kolkata have managed to get even ration cards >> and electoral identity cards! In some constituencies, the illegal >> immigrant voters are said to be so strong as to determine the winner >> and the loser. If the illegal immigrants can manage to get ration >> cards and election ID cards from the administration, why can't they >> get a UID? So the problem here is rampant corruption in >> administration, not the absence of a citizen identification mechanism. >> >> Why do the benefits of government schemes not reach the targeted >> sections? This is because the lion's share of the allocations for such >> schemes are siphoned off by the corrupt politicians and bureaucrats. >> This politician-bureaucrat nexus is responsible for irregularities >> prevailing in the public distribution system. If the government cannot >> break this powerful nexus and eliminate corruption, how can just a UID >> card ensure proper distribution of government's welfare package? >> >> There are gross discrepancies in the issue of various identity cards >> in force now. It is no secret that a major portion of the BPL(Below >> the Poverty Line) cards issued to avail of subsidised food commodities >> through the PDS is bogus. A report states that there are 97 million >> BPL cards in the country whereas the number of BPL families come to >> only 58 million. Nandan Nilekani, who has been appointed chairman of >> the Unique Identification Authority of India (UIDAI), himself mentions >> in his celebrated book `Imagining India' that the number of BPL cards >> in his home state of Karnataka exceeds the total population of the >> state. This is because the cards are issued indiscriminately, thus >> denying the benefits of PDS to the really deserving. The story is the >> same as regards an estimated 65 million kisan credit cards in >> circulation in the country. >> >> How does the government propose to prevent similar fraud in the issue >> of national ID card? Where is the guarantee that the same corrupt >> forces which took advantage of the BPL cards won't abuse the UID also? >> Is the government willing to give a public commitment that the issue >> of UID will be transparent and corruption-free? >> >> The entire ID card project is estimated to cost around Rs 1.5 lakh >> crore. No doubt, it will offer a multi-billion dollar business >> opportunity for the domestic technology players, with the first phase >> of the project — which will cover ultra urban, urban, and semi-urban >> populations — alone offering a Rs 6,500 crore business opportunity. >> But the business part apart, is such a mammoth spending justified? If >> this ambitious programme falters at the implementation level like >> other such ID cards did, what will be the drain on the public >> exchequer? Rather than embarking on a new identification card at such >> colossal cost, shouldn't the government have made an honest attempt to >> plug the loopholes in the present system of issuing ID cards? Did the >> government set the right priority in taking up the UID project? Only >> time will tell. >> >> Speak up: Do you think UID will serve the intended purpose? >> _________________________________________ >> reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. >> Critiques & Collaborations >> To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with >> subscribe in the subject header. >> To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list >> List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> > > > From jeebesh at sarai.net Tue Jun 30 18:03:30 2009 From: jeebesh at sarai.net (Jeebesh) Date: Tue, 30 Jun 2009 18:03:30 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Is terrorism growing because we lack a UID? - 133 In-Reply-To: <341380d00906300527u3b67a21fsaf26a624297c246a@mail.gmail.com> References: <65be9bf40906300453o5d9677d0la78c22edc6143bf6@mail.gmail.com> <341380d00906300527u3b67a21fsaf26a624297c246a@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: This Unique ID? How? The report merely talks about I card to access banking system. If you need a bank account you are asked to furnish an ID proof. This has been mandated for last two decades. Reserve bank is saying what is prevalent and has very little to do with this UID. (the abbreviation reads more like a contraceptive :).. On 30-Jun-09, at 5:57 PM, anupam chakravartty wrote: > For diamond workers in Surat, however this Unique I D card remains a > suggestion. Is it because the government has to give the benefits? > > http://www.indianexpress.com/news/icard-for-diamond-workers-remains-a-suggest/459760/ > > thanks anupam > > > On 6/30/09, Taha Mehmood <2tahamehmood at googlemail.com> wrote: >> >> Dear All >> >> This is perhaps the first instance of reasoned questioning of the UID >> program by media organization. The questions related to UID asked in >> the article below reflect a healthy skepticism not only about the >> purported benefits of such a scheme but also about the its >> foundational logic. >> >> I.5 Lakh crore- is the sum of money which will be transferred in the >> name of protecting this nation from ' illegal immigrants' and >> 'providing benefits' to the poorest to the poor. When most of the >> Indians live undocumented lives, one wonders how would this exercise >> be carried out? One also thinks why some prominent members of the >> main-stream media is in awe of Nandan Nilekeni Saheb. We recently saw >> Rajdeep Sardesai of CNN-IBN showering praise to Nilekeni Saheb's >> vision for India which includes a national identity card. >> >> Regards >> >> Taha >> >> >> >> >> >> http://news.in.msn.com/columns/article.aspx?cp-documentid=3065458 >> >> Is terrorism growing because we lack a UID? >> >> To establish my nationality as an India, I do have multiple ID cards >> issued by various government agencies like the election identity >> card, >> driving license, passport, PAN and what not. But the UPA-II >> government >> feels these cards are not enough and I, like all other citizens of >> the >> country, must possess one more card, that's the Unique >> Identification(UID) card. >> >> The government seeks to achieve three-fold objectives by issuing the >> UID cards: 1. Enhance national security; 2. Check illegal >> immigration, >> particularly from Bangladesh; 3.Ensure that the benefits of >> government >> welfare schemes reach the targeted sections. Regarding the first >> objective, government thinks that UID will ensure identification of >> terrorists and thus curb the menace. But is cross-border terrorism >> growing just because we don't have a UID? >> >> The failure of the intelligence machinery in India, absence of a >> well-trained anti-terror force, lack of aggressiveness in India's >> policy towards Pakistan and, above all, the overt support received by >> terror outfits from the Pakistani regime are some of the reasons why >> terrorism is growing? All these factors were as clear as daylight in >> the recent Mumbai attacks. How can UID curb terrorism if these >> factors >> are not addressed by the government? >> >> About illegal immigration, the successive Central governments have >> been culpably indifferent to this problem, so much so most >> Bengladeshi >> immigrants in Delhi and Kolkata have managed to get even ration cards >> and electoral identity cards! In some constituencies, the illegal >> immigrant voters are said to be so strong as to determine the winner >> and the loser. If the illegal immigrants can manage to get ration >> cards and election ID cards from the administration, why can't they >> get a UID? So the problem here is rampant corruption in >> administration, not the absence of a citizen identification >> mechanism. >> >> Why do the benefits of government schemes not reach the targeted >> sections? This is because the lion's share of the allocations for >> such >> schemes are siphoned off by the corrupt politicians and bureaucrats. >> This politician-bureaucrat nexus is responsible for irregularities >> prevailing in the public distribution system. If the government >> cannot >> break this powerful nexus and eliminate corruption, how can just a >> UID >> card ensure proper distribution of government's welfare package? >> >> There are gross discrepancies in the issue of various identity cards >> in force now. It is no secret that a major portion of the BPL(Below >> the Poverty Line) cards issued to avail of subsidised food >> commodities >> through the PDS is bogus. A report states that there are 97 million >> BPL cards in the country whereas the number of BPL families come to >> only 58 million. Nandan Nilekani, who has been appointed chairman of >> the Unique Identification Authority of India (UIDAI), himself >> mentions >> in his celebrated book `Imagining India' that the number of BPL cards >> in his home state of Karnataka exceeds the total population of the >> state. This is because the cards are issued indiscriminately, thus >> denying the benefits of PDS to the really deserving. The story is the >> same as regards an estimated 65 million kisan credit cards in >> circulation in the country. >> >> How does the government propose to prevent similar fraud in the issue >> of national ID card? Where is the guarantee that the same corrupt >> forces which took advantage of the BPL cards won't abuse the UID >> also? >> Is the government willing to give a public commitment that the issue >> of UID will be transparent and corruption-free? >> >> The entire ID card project is estimated to cost around Rs 1.5 lakh >> crore. No doubt, it will offer a multi-billion dollar business >> opportunity for the domestic technology players, with the first phase >> of the project — which will cover ultra urban, urban, and semi-urban >> populations — alone offering a Rs 6,500 crore business opportunity. >> But the business part apart, is such a mammoth spending justified? If >> this ambitious programme falters at the implementation level like >> other such ID cards did, what will be the drain on the public >> exchequer? Rather than embarking on a new identification card at such >> colossal cost, shouldn't the government have made an honest attempt >> to >> plug the loopholes in the present system of issuing ID cards? Did the >> government set the right priority in taking up the UID project? Only >> time will tell. >> >> Speak up: Do you think UID will serve the intended purpose? >> _________________________________________ >> reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. >> Critiques & Collaborations >> To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with >> subscribe in the subject header. >> To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list >> List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > subscribe in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> From jeebesh at sarai.net Tue Jun 30 18:10:56 2009 From: jeebesh at sarai.net (Jeebesh) Date: Tue, 30 Jun 2009 18:10:56 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Is terrorism growing because we lack a UID? - 133 In-Reply-To: <341380d00906300531w1fe8631fg9daae3d60f54407a@mail.gmail.com> References: <65be9bf40906300453o5d9677d0la78c22edc6143bf6@mail.gmail.com> <341380d00906300527u3b67a21fsaf26a624297c246a@mail.gmail.com> <341380d00906300531w1fe8631fg9daae3d60f54407a@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: The uses of the "poor" are many. It seems that a huge corporate and state conglomeration has come together to enter into a project of gigantic scale. It will be interesting to see who will get the main share of the 1.5 lakh crore. This looks like a huge "stimulus" package for some industries. 1.5 lakh crore in social spending would have altered the health and education environment for ever. But spending in the name of the "poor" can definitely benefit many. On 30-Jun-09, at 6:01 PM, anupam chakravartty wrote: > Identity cards are also needed for social security, then why are these > diamond workers not given these cards, while they are planning to > give the > ID cards to coastal fish farmers. > > http://www.expressindia.com/latest-news/social-security-net-can-do-little-for-diamond-workers/423365/ > > > On 6/30/09, anupam chakravartty wrote: >> >> For diamond workers in Surat, however this Unique I D card remains a >> suggestion. Is it because the government has to give the benefits? >> >> >> http://www.indianexpress.com/news/icard-for-diamond-workers-remains-a-suggest/459760/ >> >> thanks anupam >> >> >> On 6/30/09, Taha Mehmood <2tahamehmood at googlemail.com> wrote: >>> >>> Dear All >>> >>> This is perhaps the first instance of reasoned questioning of the >>> UID >>> program by media organization. The questions related to UID asked in >>> the article below reflect a healthy skepticism not only about the >>> purported benefits of such a scheme but also about the its >>> foundational logic. >>> >>> I.5 Lakh crore- is the sum of money which will be transferred in the >>> name of protecting this nation from ' illegal immigrants' and >>> 'providing benefits' to the poorest to the poor. When most of the >>> Indians live undocumented lives, one wonders how would this exercise >>> be carried out? One also thinks why some prominent members of the >>> main-stream media is in awe of Nandan Nilekeni Saheb. We recently >>> saw >>> Rajdeep Sardesai of CNN-IBN showering praise to Nilekeni Saheb's >>> vision for India which includes a national identity card. >>> >>> Regards >>> >>> Taha >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> http://news.in.msn.com/columns/article.aspx?cp-documentid=3065458 >>> >>> Is terrorism growing because we lack a UID? >>> >>> To establish my nationality as an India, I do have multiple ID cards >>> issued by various government agencies like the election identity >>> card, >>> driving license, passport, PAN and what not. But the UPA-II >>> government >>> feels these cards are not enough and I, like all other citizens of >>> the >>> country, must possess one more card, that's the Unique >>> Identification(UID) card. >>> >>> The government seeks to achieve three-fold objectives by issuing the >>> UID cards: 1. Enhance national security; 2. Check illegal >>> immigration, >>> particularly from Bangladesh; 3.Ensure that the benefits of >>> government >>> welfare schemes reach the targeted sections. Regarding the first >>> objective, government thinks that UID will ensure identification of >>> terrorists and thus curb the menace. But is cross-border terrorism >>> growing just because we don't have a UID? >>> >>> The failure of the intelligence machinery in India, absence of a >>> well-trained anti-terror force, lack of aggressiveness in India's >>> policy towards Pakistan and, above all, the overt support received >>> by >>> terror outfits from the Pakistani regime are some of the reasons why >>> terrorism is growing? All these factors were as clear as daylight in >>> the recent Mumbai attacks. How can UID curb terrorism if these >>> factors >>> are not addressed by the government? >>> >>> About illegal immigration, the successive Central governments have >>> been culpably indifferent to this problem, so much so most >>> Bengladeshi >>> immigrants in Delhi and Kolkata have managed to get even ration >>> cards >>> and electoral identity cards! In some constituencies, the illegal >>> immigrant voters are said to be so strong as to determine the winner >>> and the loser. If the illegal immigrants can manage to get ration >>> cards and election ID cards from the administration, why can't they >>> get a UID? So the problem here is rampant corruption in >>> administration, not the absence of a citizen identification >>> mechanism. >>> >>> Why do the benefits of government schemes not reach the targeted >>> sections? This is because the lion's share of the allocations for >>> such >>> schemes are siphoned off by the corrupt politicians and bureaucrats. >>> This politician-bureaucrat nexus is responsible for irregularities >>> prevailing in the public distribution system. If the government >>> cannot >>> break this powerful nexus and eliminate corruption, how can just a >>> UID >>> card ensure proper distribution of government's welfare package? >>> >>> There are gross discrepancies in the issue of various identity cards >>> in force now. It is no secret that a major portion of the BPL(Below >>> the Poverty Line) cards issued to avail of subsidised food >>> commodities >>> through the PDS is bogus. A report states that there are 97 million >>> BPL cards in the country whereas the number of BPL families come to >>> only 58 million. Nandan Nilekani, who has been appointed chairman of >>> the Unique Identification Authority of India (UIDAI), himself >>> mentions >>> in his celebrated book `Imagining India' that the number of BPL >>> cards >>> in his home state of Karnataka exceeds the total population of the >>> state. This is because the cards are issued indiscriminately, thus >>> denying the benefits of PDS to the really deserving. The story is >>> the >>> same as regards an estimated 65 million kisan credit cards in >>> circulation in the country. >>> >>> How does the government propose to prevent similar fraud in the >>> issue >>> of national ID card? Where is the guarantee that the same corrupt >>> forces which took advantage of the BPL cards won't abuse the UID >>> also? >>> Is the government willing to give a public commitment that the issue >>> of UID will be transparent and corruption-free? >>> >>> The entire ID card project is estimated to cost around Rs 1.5 lakh >>> crore. No doubt, it will offer a multi-billion dollar business >>> opportunity for the domestic technology players, with the first >>> phase >>> of the project — which will cover ultra urban, urban, and semi-urban >>> populations — alone offering a Rs 6,500 crore business opportunity. >>> But the business part apart, is such a mammoth spending justified? >>> If >>> this ambitious programme falters at the implementation level like >>> other such ID cards did, what will be the drain on the public >>> exchequer? Rather than embarking on a new identification card at >>> such >>> colossal cost, shouldn't the government have made an honest >>> attempt to >>> plug the loopholes in the present system of issuing ID cards? Did >>> the >>> government set the right priority in taking up the UID project? Only >>> time will tell. >>> >>> Speak up: Do you think UID will serve the intended purpose? >>> _________________________________________ >>> reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. >>> Critiques & Collaborations >>> To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with >>> subscribe in the subject header. >>> To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list >>> List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> >> >> >> > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > subscribe in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> From c.anupam at gmail.com Tue Jun 30 18:14:25 2009 From: c.anupam at gmail.com (anupam chakravartty) Date: Tue, 30 Jun 2009 18:14:25 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Is terrorism growing because we lack a UID? - 133 In-Reply-To: References: <65be9bf40906300453o5d9677d0la78c22edc6143bf6@mail.gmail.com> <341380d00906300527u3b67a21fsaf26a624297c246a@mail.gmail.com> <341380d00906300531w1fe8631fg9daae3d60f54407a@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <341380d00906300544s7b6ae32wfb714e668686d512@mail.gmail.com> dear jeebesh, i cited these reports only to suggest that how the idea of identification to seek benefits from the state as in the case of diamond workers ends up merely being suggestion. thanks anupam On 6/30/09, Jeebesh wrote: > > The uses of the "poor" are many. It seems that a huge corporate and > state conglomeration has come together to enter into a project of > gigantic scale. It will be interesting to see who will get the main > share of the 1.5 lakh crore. This looks like a huge "stimulus" package > for some industries. > > 1.5 lakh crore in social spending would have altered the health and > education environment for ever. But spending in the name of the "poor" > can definitely benefit many. > > > On 30-Jun-09, at 6:01 PM, anupam chakravartty wrote: > > > Identity cards are also needed for social security, then why are these > > diamond workers not given these cards, while they are planning to > > give the > > ID cards to coastal fish farmers. > > > > > http://www.expressindia.com/latest-news/social-security-net-can-do-little-for-diamond-workers/423365/ > > > > > > On 6/30/09, anupam chakravartty wrote: > >> > >> For diamond workers in Surat, however this Unique I D card remains a > >> suggestion. Is it because the government has to give the benefits? > >> > >> > >> > http://www.indianexpress.com/news/icard-for-diamond-workers-remains-a-suggest/459760/ > >> > >> thanks anupam > >> > >> > >> On 6/30/09, Taha Mehmood <2tahamehmood at googlemail.com> wrote: > >>> > >>> Dear All > >>> > >>> This is perhaps the first instance of reasoned questioning of the > >>> UID > >>> program by media organization. The questions related to UID asked in > >>> the article below reflect a healthy skepticism not only about the > >>> purported benefits of such a scheme but also about the its > >>> foundational logic. > >>> > >>> I.5 Lakh crore- is the sum of money which will be transferred in the > >>> name of protecting this nation from ' illegal immigrants' and > >>> 'providing benefits' to the poorest to the poor. When most of the > >>> Indians live undocumented lives, one wonders how would this exercise > >>> be carried out? One also thinks why some prominent members of the > >>> main-stream media is in awe of Nandan Nilekeni Saheb. We recently > >>> saw > >>> Rajdeep Sardesai of CNN-IBN showering praise to Nilekeni Saheb's > >>> vision for India which includes a national identity card. > >>> > >>> Regards > >>> > >>> Taha > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> http://news.in.msn.com/columns/article.aspx?cp-documentid=3065458 > >>> > >>> Is terrorism growing because we lack a UID? > >>> > >>> To establish my nationality as an India, I do have multiple ID cards > >>> issued by various government agencies like the election identity > >>> card, > >>> driving license, passport, PAN and what not. But the UPA-II > >>> government > >>> feels these cards are not enough and I, like all other citizens of > >>> the > >>> country, must possess one more card, that's the Unique > >>> Identification(UID) card. > >>> > >>> The government seeks to achieve three-fold objectives by issuing the > >>> UID cards: 1. Enhance national security; 2. Check illegal > >>> immigration, > >>> particularly from Bangladesh; 3.Ensure that the benefits of > >>> government > >>> welfare schemes reach the targeted sections. Regarding the first > >>> objective, government thinks that UID will ensure identification of > >>> terrorists and thus curb the menace. But is cross-border terrorism > >>> growing just because we don't have a UID? > >>> > >>> The failure of the intelligence machinery in India, absence of a > >>> well-trained anti-terror force, lack of aggressiveness in India's > >>> policy towards Pakistan and, above all, the overt support received > >>> by > >>> terror outfits from the Pakistani regime are some of the reasons why > >>> terrorism is growing? All these factors were as clear as daylight in > >>> the recent Mumbai attacks. How can UID curb terrorism if these > >>> factors > >>> are not addressed by the government? > >>> > >>> About illegal immigration, the successive Central governments have > >>> been culpably indifferent to this problem, so much so most > >>> Bengladeshi > >>> immigrants in Delhi and Kolkata have managed to get even ration > >>> cards > >>> and electoral identity cards! In some constituencies, the illegal > >>> immigrant voters are said to be so strong as to determine the winner > >>> and the loser. If the illegal immigrants can manage to get ration > >>> cards and election ID cards from the administration, why can't they > >>> get a UID? So the problem here is rampant corruption in > >>> administration, not the absence of a citizen identification > >>> mechanism. > >>> > >>> Why do the benefits of government schemes not reach the targeted > >>> sections? This is because the lion's share of the allocations for > >>> such > >>> schemes are siphoned off by the corrupt politicians and bureaucrats. > >>> This politician-bureaucrat nexus is responsible for irregularities > >>> prevailing in the public distribution system. If the government > >>> cannot > >>> break this powerful nexus and eliminate corruption, how can just a > >>> UID > >>> card ensure proper distribution of government's welfare package? > >>> > >>> There are gross discrepancies in the issue of various identity cards > >>> in force now. It is no secret that a major portion of the BPL(Below > >>> the Poverty Line) cards issued to avail of subsidised food > >>> commodities > >>> through the PDS is bogus. A report states that there are 97 million > >>> BPL cards in the country whereas the number of BPL families come to > >>> only 58 million. Nandan Nilekani, who has been appointed chairman of > >>> the Unique Identification Authority of India (UIDAI), himself > >>> mentions > >>> in his celebrated book `Imagining India' that the number of BPL > >>> cards > >>> in his home state of Karnataka exceeds the total population of the > >>> state. This is because the cards are issued indiscriminately, thus > >>> denying the benefits of PDS to the really deserving. The story is > >>> the > >>> same as regards an estimated 65 million kisan credit cards in > >>> circulation in the country. > >>> > >>> How does the government propose to prevent similar fraud in the > >>> issue > >>> of national ID card? Where is the guarantee that the same corrupt > >>> forces which took advantage of the BPL cards won't abuse the UID > >>> also? > >>> Is the government willing to give a public commitment that the issue > >>> of UID will be transparent and corruption-free? > >>> > >>> The entire ID card project is estimated to cost around Rs 1.5 lakh > >>> crore. No doubt, it will offer a multi-billion dollar business > >>> opportunity for the domestic technology players, with the first > >>> phase > >>> of the project — which will cover ultra urban, urban, and semi-urban > >>> populations — alone offering a Rs 6,500 crore business opportunity. > >>> But the business part apart, is such a mammoth spending justified? > >>> If > >>> this ambitious programme falters at the implementation level like > >>> other such ID cards did, what will be the drain on the public > >>> exchequer? Rather than embarking on a new identification card at > >>> such > >>> colossal cost, shouldn't the government have made an honest > >>> attempt to > >>> plug the loopholes in the present system of issuing ID cards? Did > >>> the > >>> government set the right priority in taking up the UID project? Only > >>> time will tell. > >>> > >>> Speak up: Do you think UID will serve the intended purpose? > >>> _________________________________________ > >>> reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > >>> Critiques & Collaborations > >>> To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > >>> subscribe in the subject header. > >>> To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > >>> List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> > >> > >> > >> > > _________________________________________ > > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > > Critiques & Collaborations > > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > > subscribe in the subject header. > > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> > > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > subscribe in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> From taraprakash at gmail.com Tue Jun 30 18:18:44 2009 From: taraprakash at gmail.com (taraprakash) Date: Tue, 30 Jun 2009 08:48:44 -0400 Subject: [Reader-list] Who gives muftis the right to give fatwas? References: <0FB63B83-E35E-4E94-8500-7E0905377B0F@sarai.net> Message-ID: I am not sure where they get the rights from, but just in the run off to the general elections I heard a Congress leader say that only Mufti can issue a fatva and to be a Muftis you have to read ABC and have to do xyz. So their opinions cannot be neglected. It cannot be without any meaningful substance. Whoever thought that Congress government was serious in repealing 377 and giving equal rights to queer sexuals was perhaps being too optimistic. The religious leaders were asked for their opinions. As expected, Mufti has spoken against homosexuality. Hindu leaders are yet to speak. Our Indian culture is yet to be invoked. Thakure is out on bail and custodians of culture are wandering of streets in Bangalore as openly as ever during BJP's regime. And their is no dearth of such custodians elsewhere in India. So the issue of repeal of the controversial article can be officially forgotten. ----- Original Message ----- From: "M Javed" To: "Shuddhabrata Sengupta" ; "sarai list" Sent: Tuesday, June 30, 2009 6:16 AM Subject: Re: [Reader-list] Who gives muftis the right to give fatwas? > Dear Shuddhabrata > Actually I have a slight digression from your answer. I don't care > what fatwas the muftis give within their own coterie (I'm sure > homosexual behaviour exists in the Deoband madrasa too), but the > problem comes when this news is flashed on the front-page: it > basically sends a clear signal that "Muslims" in general are against > homo-sexuality and this is yet another example of how bigoted the > entire community is, and there are absolutely no liberals (or > queer-friendly) people among the Muslims and so on, which is not the > case. In a way, any controversial fatwa from the Deoband (whichever > damn topic) is taken by the media as a hot saucy news to be flashed to > show the backwardness of Muslims. But my question is (especially to > the mainstream media), do these damn fatwas really represent the > entire Muslim community? Are they so important that you have to flash > them as headlines. > > My second minor difference is: when you say "We are not governed by > the Shariat, and I hope we never will be". I am not sure if Shariat is > all evil. Although I don't practice it strictly, but I know it has > many good things in it which make at least the good part of Islam > alive. Don't see it only through the eyes of the Taliban. Whether we > get governed by the shariat or not, I hope we could at least adopt the > good things about it. And Shariat is not a fixed set of rules; it can > be and should be open for interpretation, which these muftis have > stopped doing. > > Thanks any way. > > Javed > > > On Mon, Jun 29, 2009 at 10:53 PM, Shuddhabrata > Sengupta wrote: >> Dear Javed, >> Thank you for forwarding this. I don't know who gives these muftis and >> tuftis the right to give fatwas, I think they give it to themselves. And >> since they routinely issue fatwas on all manner of ridiculous matters, we >> might as well treat this one too with the lack of seriousness that it >> deserves. >> We are not governed by the Shariat, and I hope we never will be. Since we >> are not governed by the Shariat, it hardly matters whether or not Maulana >> Abdul Khalik Madrasi thinks homosexuality is an offence under Shariat >> Law. >> Not even the relevant (and anachronistic, misogynist and patrarchal) >> sections of Personal Law in matters of marriage and inheritance that >> govern >> the lives of Indian Muslims have anything to say about sexual relations >> in >> private between consenting adults. So, not even from the completely >> unacceptabe (to me) standpoint of defending a separate civil code for >> Muslims is it relevant to discuss the fate of Section 377. Maulana >> Madrasi >> is barking up the wrong legal tree. >> Finally, a small historical digression. Section 377 was introduced by the >> British Colonial Administration in India. Which, as far as i recall, was >> not >> exactly a model Islamic state. In fact, the British Colonial authorities >> presided over the decline and destruction of 'nominally' Muslim political >> power in India. if, for the roughly seven hundred years preceding the >> advent >> of British rule in India, when the territory happened to be ruled largely >> by >> Muslim rulers, (some of whom claimed to be guided by the Shariat) it was >> not >> found necessary to invoke a draconian law like section 377, are we to >> then >> understand that the British Colonial authority was more 'Islamic' than >> the >> Mughal rulers, than the rulers of the Delhi sultanate, and many other >> kings >> and princes of a Muslim persuasion. >> And finally, how exactly would we remember a figure like the great Ghazi >> of >> Islam - Mahmud of Ghazna and his love for Ayaz, or Razia Sultana and her >> love for women, or the distinctly queer ecstasies of Amir Khusrau and >> Sarmad. Each one of these people saw themselves as devout Muslim. And >> there >> was nothing unusual in their being queer Muslims. Islamicate societies >> all >> over the world have been historically far more tolerant of various >> different >> kinds of same-sex relationships both male and female, and transgender >> identities, than societies largely anchored in Christian values have >> been. >> Islam is a sex positive religion. It celebrates the dignity, beauty and >> diversity of the human body and all its desires. There is (and always has >> been) a strong case for a queer theology of liberation that is rooted >> within >> the Islamicate cultural universe, and it has had a long history, and it >> will >> have a long future. >> Maulana Madrasi is probably just as ignorant of the traditions he claims >> are >> his own as Praveen Togadia, the firebrand leader of the Vishwa Hindu >> Parishad, is. They would probably make an excellent couple, locked >> happily >> together within their private closet of paranoia. >> Meanwhile, let us hope that Veerappa Moily's supposed u-turn is only a >> digression, and that the provisions in Section 377 that criminalize the >> behaviour of consenting adults in private (which should not be the >> business >> of the state) are consigned finally to where they belong - the dustbin of >> history. >> And congratulations to all those who paraded on the streets of Delhi, >> Bangalore, Madras and Calcutta. The future belongs to you (and us all) >> not >> to the likes of Maulana Madrasi. >> regards >> Shuddha >> On 29-Jun-09, at 3:54 PM, M Javed wrote: >> >> Gay sex against tenets of Islam: Deoband >> 29 Jun 2009, 1353 hrs IST, PTI >> MUZAFFARNAGAR, UP: A leading Islamic seminary on Monday opposed >> Centre's move to repeal a controversial section of the penal law which >> criminalises homosexuality saying unnatural sex is against the tenets of >> Islam. >> "Homosexuality is an offence under Shariat Law and haram (prohibited) >> in Islam," deputy vice chancellor of the Darul Uloom Deoband Maulana >> Abdul Khalik Madrasi said. >> Madrasi also asked the government not to repeal section 377 of IPC >> which criminalises homosexuality. >> His objection came a day after law minister Veerappa Moily said a >> decision on repealing the section would be taken only after >> considering concerns of all sections of the society, including >> religious groups like the church. >> Terming gay activities as crime, Maulana Salim Kasmi, vice-president >> of the All-India Muslim Personal Law Board (AIMPLB), said >> homosexuality is punishable under Islamic law and section 377 of IPC >> should not be tampered. >> Maulana Mohd Sufiyan Kasmi, an AIMPLB member, and Mufti Zulfikar, >> president of Uttar Pradesh Imam Organisation have also expressed >> similar views on the issue. >> Kasmi said it would be harmful for the society to legalise gay sex. >> Buoyed by the news that the Centre is considering repealing the >> controversial section of the IPC, members of the gay community on >> Sunday held parades in several cities. >> http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/Gay-sex-against-tenets-of-Islam-Deoband/articleshow/4715517.cms >> _________________________________________ >> reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. >> Critiques & Collaborations >> To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with >> subscribe >> in the subject header. >> To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list >> List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> >> >> Shuddhabrata Sengupta >> The Sarai Programme at CSDS >> Raqs Media Collective >> shuddha at sarai.net >> www.sarai.net >> www.raqsmediacollective.net >> >> > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > subscribe in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> From rakesh.rnbdj at gmail.com Tue Jun 30 18:27:14 2009 From: rakesh.rnbdj at gmail.com (Rakesh Iyer) Date: Tue, 30 Jun 2009 18:27:14 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Is terrorism growing because we lack a UID? - 133 In-Reply-To: <341380d00906300544s7b6ae32wfb714e668686d512@mail.gmail.com> References: <65be9bf40906300453o5d9677d0la78c22edc6143bf6@mail.gmail.com> <341380d00906300527u3b67a21fsaf26a624297c246a@mail.gmail.com> <341380d00906300531w1fe8631fg9daae3d60f54407a@mail.gmail.com> <341380d00906300544s7b6ae32wfb714e668686d512@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: Not only have the UPA and the NDA governments been incapable of solving the triple conundrum of terror I have talked about, it is indeed shameful that the govt. has undertaken such a kind of scheme which will be a victim of massive corruption and shameful implementation. And it's no surprise that the interests of the elites have been protected through that shameful Supreme Court, which is only interested in giving decisions in the favor of elites. So, Jessica Lall judgement may be upheld, but the Sardar Sarovar dam will still be built inspite of massive displacement, no rehabilitation to the displaced and total mismangement of the situation. Reservation to the OBC's will be provided without either thinking whether the 27% figure is right or not, and equally the concept of 'creamy layer' will come in, without defining it at all. A death sentence has been given to Afzal, without realizing that investigations have not been even conducted into the incident properly. And now, we have judgements for a NIC or a national identity card. The first solution towards solving terror is not implementing this scheme, but instead going for a massive reform by stating clearly that minority institutions especially at school level would not be allowed to function at all, and so also equivalent institutions for Hindus and others considered as Hindus as per the Hindu Code Bill. Instead, schools themselves should give religious education and proper teachers should be recruited for the same. If in USA, schools can be state managed, why not in India? (Religious education should be given initially somewhat compulsorily, and later as a matter of choice, so that the idea can be mutual respect of the religions; all teaching of Gita and Koran in private schools and madrassas as well as Saraswati Shishu Mandirs/other RSS schools must be banned) Regards Rakesh From c.anupam at gmail.com Tue Jun 30 18:37:41 2009 From: c.anupam at gmail.com (anupam chakravartty) Date: Tue, 30 Jun 2009 18:37:41 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Is terrorism growing because we lack a UID? - 133 In-Reply-To: References: <65be9bf40906300453o5d9677d0la78c22edc6143bf6@mail.gmail.com> <341380d00906300527u3b67a21fsaf26a624297c246a@mail.gmail.com> <341380d00906300531w1fe8631fg9daae3d60f54407a@mail.gmail.com> <341380d00906300544s7b6ae32wfb714e668686d512@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <341380d00906300607t69642aafi6c1f4973d22b0117@mail.gmail.com> Dear Rakesh, You seem to have connected too many things with a few facts. i dont see the reason for you drag jessica lall or sardar sarover or elitist hypocrisy to these issues. even with what you are saying but first lets deal with the particulars. the only reason is that often me or you or several others fall into this temptation to draw too many conclusions out of state policy. a constructive critique of the state or its policies, that's what i feel, lies in critique or finding loopholes in a particular policy. that way it becomes easier for the state to address your concerns. i am not sure if my approach is correct or right but while writing against the administration the policy implementation officials find it a little easier to tackle with it. thanks anupam On 6/30/09, Rakesh Iyer wrote: > > Not only have the UPA and the NDA governments been incapable of solving the > triple conundrum of terror I have talked about, it is indeed shameful that > the govt. has undertaken such a kind of scheme which will be a victim of > massive corruption and shameful implementation. And it's no surprise that > the interests of the elites have been protected through that shameful > Supreme Court, which is only interested in giving decisions in the favor of > elites. > > So, Jessica Lall judgement may be upheld, but the Sardar Sarovar dam will > still be built inspite of massive displacement, no rehabilitation to the > displaced and total mismangement of the situation. Reservation to the OBC's > will be provided without either thinking whether the 27% figure is right or > not, and equally the concept of 'creamy layer' will come in, without > defining it at all. A death sentence has been given to Afzal, without > realizing that investigations have not been even conducted into the incident > properly. And now, we have judgements for a NIC or a national identity card. > > > The first solution towards solving terror is not implementing this scheme, > but instead going for a massive reform by stating clearly that minority > institutions especially at school level would not be allowed to function at > all, and so also equivalent institutions for Hindus and others considered as > Hindus as per the Hindu Code Bill. Instead, schools themselves should give > religious education and proper teachers should be recruited for the same. If > in USA, schools can be state managed, why not in India? (Religious education > should be given initially somewhat compulsorily, and later as a matter of > choice, so that the idea can be mutual respect of the religions; all > teaching of Gita and Koran in private schools and madrassas as well as > Saraswati Shishu Mandirs/other RSS schools must be banned) > > Regards > > Rakesh > From rahul_capri at yahoo.com Tue Jun 30 18:55:41 2009 From: rahul_capri at yahoo.com (Rahul Asthana) Date: Tue, 30 Jun 2009 06:25:41 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Reader-list] Who gives muftis the right to give fatwas? Message-ID: <652242.86480.qm@web53605.mail.re2.yahoo.com> Dear Javed, Could you make your position clearer on this issue? You say- "My second minor difference is: when you say "We are not governed by the Shariat, and I hope we never will be". I am not sure if Shariat is all evil." So, do you wish or do you not, to be governed by Shariat? (Not wishing to be governed by Shariat does not mean that it is evil.It also does not mean that we can't adopt good things from it.) Thanks Rahul --- On Tue, 6/30/09, M Javed wrote: > From: M Javed > Subject: Re: [Reader-list] Who gives muftis the right to give fatwas? > To: "Shuddhabrata Sengupta" , "sarai list" > Date: Tuesday, June 30, 2009, 3:46 PM > Dear Shuddhabrata > Actually I have a slight digression from your answer. I > don't care > what fatwas the muftis give within their own coterie (I'm > sure > homosexual behaviour exists in the Deoband madrasa too), > but the > problem comes when this news is flashed on the front-page: > it > basically sends a clear signal that "Muslims" in general > are against > homo-sexuality and this is yet another example of how > bigoted the > entire community is, and there are absolutely no liberals > (or > queer-friendly) people among the Muslims and so on, which > is not the > case. In a way, any controversial fatwa from the Deoband > (whichever > damn topic) is taken by the media as a hot saucy news to be > flashed to > show the backwardness of Muslims. But my question is > (especially to > the mainstream media), do these damn fatwas really > represent the > entire Muslim community? Are they so important that you > have to flash > them as headlines. > > My second minor difference is: when you say "We are not > governed by > the Shariat, and I hope we never will be". I am not sure if > Shariat is > all evil. Although I don't practice it strictly, but I know > it has > many good things in it which make at least the good part of > Islam > alive. Don't see it only through the eyes of the Taliban. > Whether we > get governed by the shariat or not, I hope we could at > least adopt the > good things about it. And Shariat is not a fixed set of > rules; it can > be and should be open for interpretation, which these > muftis have > stopped doing. > > Thanks any way. > > Javed > > > On Mon, Jun 29, 2009 at 10:53 PM, Shuddhabrata > Sengupta > wrote: > > Dear Javed, > > Thank you for forwarding this. I don't know who gives > these muftis and > > tuftis the right to give fatwas, I think they give it > to themselves. And > > since they routinely issue fatwas on all manner of > ridiculous matters, we > > might as well treat this one too with the lack of > seriousness that it > > deserves. > > We are not governed by the Shariat, and I hope we > never will be. Since we > > are not governed by the Shariat, it hardly matters > whether or not Maulana > > Abdul Khalik Madrasi thinks homosexuality is an > offence under Shariat Law. > > Not even the relevant (and anachronistic, misogynist > and patrarchal) > > sections of Personal Law in matters of marriage and > inheritance that govern > > the lives of Indian Muslims have anything to say about > sexual relations in > > private between consenting adults. So, not even from > the completely > > unacceptabe (to me) standpoint of defending a separate > civil code for > > Muslims is it relevant to discuss the fate of Section > 377. Maulana Madrasi > > is barking up the wrong legal tree. > > Finally, a small historical digression. Section 377 > was introduced by the > > British Colonial Administration in India. Which, as > far as i recall, was not > > exactly a model Islamic state. In fact, the British > Colonial authorities > > presided over the decline and destruction of > 'nominally' Muslim political > > power in India. if, for the roughly seven hundred > years preceding the advent > > of British rule in India, when the territory happened > to be ruled largely by > > Muslim rulers, (some of whom claimed to be guided by > the Shariat) it was not > > found necessary to invoke a draconian law like section > 377, are we to then > > understand that the British Colonial authority was > more 'Islamic' than the > > Mughal rulers, than the rulers of the Delhi sultanate, > and many other kings > > and princes of a Muslim persuasion. > > And finally, how exactly would we remember a figure > like the great Ghazi of > > Islam - Mahmud of Ghazna and his love for Ayaz, or > Razia Sultana and her > > love for women, or the distinctly queer ecstasies of > Amir Khusrau and > > Sarmad. Each one of these people saw themselves as > devout Muslim. And there > > was nothing unusual in their being queer Muslims. > Islamicate societies all > > over the world have been historically far more > tolerant of various different > > kinds of same-sex relationships both male and female, > and transgender > > identities, than societies largely anchored in > Christian values have been. > > Islam is a sex positive religion. It celebrates the > dignity, beauty and > > diversity of the human body and all its desires. There > is (and always has > > been) a strong case for a queer theology of liberation > that is rooted within > > the Islamicate cultural universe, and it has had a > long history, and it will > > have a long future. > > Maulana Madrasi is probably just as ignorant of the > traditions he claims are > > his own as Praveen Togadia, the firebrand leader of > the Vishwa Hindu > > Parishad, is. They would probably make an excellent > couple, locked happily > > together within their private closet of paranoia. > > Meanwhile, let us hope that Veerappa Moily's supposed > u-turn is only a > > digression, and that the provisions in Section 377 > that criminalize the > > behaviour of consenting adults in private (which > should not be the business > > of the state)  are consigned finally to where they > belong - the dustbin of > > history. > > And congratulations to all those who paraded on the > streets of Delhi, > > Bangalore, Madras and Calcutta. The future belongs to > you (and us all) not > > to the likes of Maulana Madrasi. > > regards > > Shuddha > > On 29-Jun-09, at 3:54 PM, M Javed wrote: > > > > Gay sex against tenets of Islam: Deoband > > 29 Jun 2009, 1353 hrs IST, PTI > > MUZAFFARNAGAR, UP: A leading Islamic seminary on > Monday opposed > > Centre's move to repeal a controversial section of the > penal law which > > criminalises homosexuality saying unnatural sex is > against the tenets of > > Islam. > > "Homosexuality is an offence under Shariat Law and > haram (prohibited) > > in Islam," deputy vice chancellor of the Darul Uloom > Deoband Maulana > > Abdul Khalik Madrasi said. > > Madrasi also asked the government not to repeal > section 377 of IPC > > which criminalises homosexuality. > > His objection came a day after law minister Veerappa > Moily said a > > decision on repealing the section would be taken only > after > > considering concerns of all sections of the society, > including > > religious groups like the church. > > Terming gay activities as crime, Maulana Salim Kasmi, > vice-president > > of the All-India Muslim Personal Law Board (AIMPLB), > said > > homosexuality is punishable under Islamic law and > section 377 of IPC > > should not be tampered. > > Maulana Mohd Sufiyan Kasmi, an AIMPLB member, and > Mufti Zulfikar, > > president of Uttar Pradesh Imam Organisation have also > expressed > > similar views on the issue. > > Kasmi said it would be harmful for the society to > legalise gay sex. > > Buoyed by the news that the Centre is considering > repealing the > > controversial section of the IPC, members of the gay > community on > > Sunday held parades in several cities. > > http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/Gay-sex-against-tenets-of-Islam-Deoband/articleshow/4715517.cms > > _________________________________________ > > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the > city. > > Critiques & Collaborations > > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net > with subscribe > > in the subject header. > > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> > > > > Shuddhabrata Sengupta > > The Sarai Programme at CSDS > > Raqs Media Collective > > shuddha at sarai.net > > www.sarai.net > > www.raqsmediacollective.net > > > > > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the > city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net > with subscribe in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> From kshmendra2005 at yahoo.com Tue Jun 30 19:05:13 2009 From: kshmendra2005 at yahoo.com (Kshmendra Kaul) Date: Tue, 30 Jun 2009 06:35:13 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Reader-list] Is terrorism growing because we lack a UID? - 133 Message-ID: <910347.7036.qm@web57204.mail.re3.yahoo.com> Lenses are a great invention.   You can avail of their benefits and see shapes and colours as most others see them with their normal vision.   Or you can craft the lenses to distort your viewing in whichever manner you choose.   And, you can add hues to lenses to wilfully colour (as you may choose) all that you see.   Lenses are mounted on frames. You can choose those frames to blinker your vision to the extent you want to.   Some lenses and their frames are very fashionable.   Thank you Anupam for clear vision. --- On Tue, 6/30/09, anupam chakravartty wrote: From: anupam chakravartty Subject: Re: [Reader-list] Is terrorism growing because we lack a UID? - 133 To: "sarai list" Date: Tuesday, June 30, 2009, 6:37 PM Dear Rakesh, You seem to have connected too many things with a few facts. i dont see the reason for you drag jessica lall or sardar sarover or elitist hypocrisy to these issues. even with what you are saying but first lets deal with the particulars. the only reason is that often me or you or several others fall into this temptation to draw too many conclusions out of state policy. a constructive critique of the state or its policies, that's what i feel, lies in critique or finding loopholes in a particular policy. that way it becomes easier for the state to address your concerns. i am not sure if my approach is correct or right but while writing against the administration the policy implementation officials find it a little easier to tackle with it. thanks anupam On 6/30/09, Rakesh Iyer wrote: > > Not only have the UPA and the NDA governments been incapable of solving the > triple conundrum of terror I have talked about, it is indeed shameful that > the govt. has undertaken such a kind of scheme which will be a victim of > massive corruption and shameful implementation. And it's no surprise that > the interests of the elites have been protected through that shameful > Supreme Court, which is only interested in giving decisions in the favor of > elites. > > So, Jessica Lall judgement may be upheld, but the Sardar Sarovar dam will > still be built inspite of massive displacement, no rehabilitation to the > displaced and total mismangement of the situation. Reservation to the OBC's > will be provided without either thinking whether the 27% figure is right or > not, and equally the concept of 'creamy layer' will come in, without > defining it at all. A death sentence has been given to Afzal, without > realizing that investigations have not been even conducted into the incident > properly. And now, we have judgements for a NIC or a national identity card. > > > The first solution towards solving terror is not implementing this scheme, > but instead going for a massive reform by stating clearly that minority > institutions especially at school level would not be allowed to function at > all, and so also equivalent institutions for Hindus and others considered as > Hindus as per the Hindu Code Bill. Instead, schools themselves should give > religious education and proper teachers should be recruited for the same. If > in USA, schools can be state managed, why not in India? (Religious education > should be given initially somewhat compulsorily, and later as a matter of > choice, so that the idea can be mutual respect of the religions; all > teaching of Gita and Koran in private schools and madrassas as well as > Saraswati Shishu Mandirs/other RSS schools must be banned) > > Regards > > Rakesh > _________________________________________ reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. Critiques & Collaborations To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with subscribe in the subject header. To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> From c.anupam at gmail.com Tue Jun 30 19:19:49 2009 From: c.anupam at gmail.com (anupam chakravartty) Date: Tue, 30 Jun 2009 19:19:49 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Is terrorism growing because we lack a UID? - 133 In-Reply-To: <910347.7036.qm@web57204.mail.re3.yahoo.com> References: <910347.7036.qm@web57204.mail.re3.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <341380d00906300649n5364afb8u54991522717863d5@mail.gmail.com> thanks for a sharing this important piece of information about lenses and frames. On 6/30/09, Kshmendra Kaul wrote: > > Lenses are a great invention. > > You can avail of their benefits and see shapes and colours as most others > see them with their normal vision. > > Or you can craft the lenses to distort your viewing in whichever manner you > choose. > > And, you can add hues to lenses to wilfully colour (as you may choose) all > that you see. > > Lenses are mounted on frames. You can choose those frames to blinker your > vision to the extent you want to. > > Some lenses and their frames are very fashionable. > > Thank you Anupam for clear vision. > > > --- On *Tue, 6/30/09, anupam chakravartty * wrote: > > > > From: anupam chakravartty > Subject: Re: [Reader-list] Is terrorism growing because we lack a UID? - > 133 > To: "sarai list" > Date: Tuesday, June 30, 2009, 6:37 PM > > Dear Rakesh, > > You seem to have connected too many things with a few facts. i dont see the > reason for you drag jessica lall or sardar sarover or elitist hypocrisy to > these issues. even with what you are saying but first lets deal with the > particulars. the only reason is that often me or you or several others fall > into this temptation to draw too many conclusions out of state policy. a > constructive critique of the state or its policies, that's what i feel, > lies > in critique or finding loopholes in a particular policy. that way it > becomes > easier for the state to address your concerns. i am not sure if my approach > is correct or right but while writing against the administration the policy > implementation officials find it a little easier to tackle with it. > > thanks anupam > On 6/30/09, Rakesh Iyer > > wrote: > > > > Not only have the UPA and the NDA governments been incapable of solving > the > > triple conundrum of terror I have talked about, it is indeed shameful > that > > the govt. has undertaken such a kind of scheme which will be a victim of > > massive corruption and shameful implementation. And it's no surprise that > > the interests of the elites have been protected through that shameful > > Supreme Court, which is only interested in giving decisions in the favor > of > > elites. > > > > So, Jessica Lall judgement may be upheld, but the Sardar Sarovar dam will > > still be built inspite of massive displacement, no rehabilitation to the > > displaced and total mismangement of the situation. Reservation to the > OBC's > > will be provided without either thinking whether the 27% figure is right > or > > not, and equally the concept of 'creamy layer' will come in, without > > defining it at all. A death sentence has been given to Afzal, without > > realizing that investigations have not been even conducted into the > incident > > properly. And now, we have judgements for a NIC or a national identity > card. > > > > > > The first solution towards solving terror is not implementing this > scheme, > > but instead going for a massive reform by stating clearly that minority > > institutions especially at school level would not be allowed to function > at > > all, and so also equivalent institutions for Hindus and others considered > as > > Hindus as per the Hindu Code Bill. Instead, schools themselves should > give > > religious education and proper teachers should be recruited for the same. > If > > in USA, schools can be state managed, why not in India? (Religious > education > > should be given initially somewhat compulsorily, and later as a matter of > > choice, so that the idea can be mutual respect of the religions; all > > teaching of Gita and Koran in private schools and madrassas as well as > > Saraswati Shishu Mandirs/other RSS schools must be banned) > > > > Regards > > > > Rakesh > > > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.netwith subscribe in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> > > > From bawazainab79 at gmail.com Tue Jun 30 19:43:12 2009 From: bawazainab79 at gmail.com (Zainab Bawa) Date: Tue, 30 Jun 2009 19:43:12 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] City, nights and fear Message-ID: 9 o'clock 10 o'clock 11 o'clock Night, dark, inside their homes - the peoples but, this is Mumbai, does not sleep - the city that does not sleep. Someone asked me the other day - but you said that people do not sleep here in Mumbai. Look around, everyone seems to be asleep - and he smiled. I thought to myself, maybe it is the weekend and so everyone is sitting tight in their homes. Then, returning back home at 11:15 PM at night, sitting in the cab, I looked around. A sense of fear had also gripped me - how will I return home? When will I return home? When will I snuggle up in my bed and feel safe. How can this happen to me in Mumbai - the city whose prodigy I am. Fear, that feeling of lack of safety, was creeping up my neck. Sitting in the taxi, I asked the driver - no public on the streets? He said - Sunday nah? Little public out at night. But, I prodded further, even the bus services into the city have reduced at night. What is th deal? The buses *kya? *They run empty at nights and so, the BEST has decided to reduce them. But yes, the streets are empty at nights these days, after the *bamb-kaand*. *Bamb-kaand*? You mean 26/11? Yes. After that, people have reduced going out at nights. A sense of fear has gripped people. We taxi drivers, our income was mainly from the fares we got at night. Now, that has reduced drastically. All the *shareef*, good character people don't come out at nights. It is only the *badmaash*, the bad characters, that come out at night. Plus, so much *naaka-bandi, *police watch. Who will come out? Which *shareef* person will come out? Just a while before the driver was drawing a distinction between the *shareef *and the *badmaash*, I had watched a bunch of well-dressed prostitutes and one of their clients in the classic white kurta and pyjama, laughing and making jokes around the corner of a hotel at Grant Road. And I had thought about respectability. Now, I think of the *shareef, *the *badmaash*, and the night and the city - transformation, perhaps it is happening at these subtle levels. Then, I watched the city last night as we rode past one end to the other. Are the streets really silent? Is this what the *bamb-kaand* has done? Penetrated into the fabric of the city and spread fear ... We halted at a signal around the corner of one of the posh Western suburbs. There she was - no fear - just dexteriously weaving the flowers through the thread and making garlands, perhaps readying herself for the clientele in the morning who may want to offer the flowers to their gods and goddesses, allaying a fear of a different kind (that between the devotee and the devout). She weaved away quickly, without care. Is she afraid, I thought to myself? Then we passed the roads. There they were, those people, those people we call slum dwellers. Three hutments jutting out from the walls, just onto to the streets. They had also called it a night, lying down in their beds, drawing their sheets onto themselves. There they were, stepping into the world of dreams and nightmares and desires and hopes and aspirations - some had their TV sets on, some just oblivious of the roadside traffic and preparing to go off to sleep. Are they afraid? Then, we went pass the highway, those big roads that have been created to facilitate the movement of cars (and traffic). On the highway, covered under blue plastic sheets, supported by a few poles, they were also going off to sleep. Perhaps they were construction workers who had settled into a little space on the footpath and called it a night. Perhaps they were contract sweepers, spending their last few days in the city before the rain lashes vehemently. They were almost calling it a night, drifting off (or just about to ...) ... Are they afraid? And then, just a little ahead, three-four men and women, playing hide-and-seek in the bushes by the side of the highway, perhaps some kind of a foreplay. They seemed happy, playful. Are they afraid? Fear - what of? Fear - of what? Fear ... and the city sleeps at night ... Fear ... and we sleep to prepare for another day to come ... Fear ... -- Zainab Bawa Ph.D. Student and Independent Researcher Gaining Ground ... http://zainab.freecrow.org http://cis-india.org/research/cis-raw/histories-of-the-internet/transparency-and-politics From rakesh.rnbdj at gmail.com Tue Jun 30 20:08:44 2009 From: rakesh.rnbdj at gmail.com (Rakesh Iyer) Date: Tue, 30 Jun 2009 20:08:44 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Is terrorism growing because we lack a UID? - 133 In-Reply-To: <341380d00906300649n5364afb8u54991522717863d5@mail.gmail.com> References: <910347.7036.qm@web57204.mail.re3.yahoo.com> <341380d00906300649n5364afb8u54991522717863d5@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: I am sorry for having mixed up issues. From manakmatiyani at gmail.com Tue Jun 30 20:56:03 2009 From: manakmatiyani at gmail.com (Manak Matiyani) Date: Tue, 30 Jun 2009 20:56:03 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Queer Parade Accounts? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4270de410906300826i36d1eeabq2e7a37a021ab8ef1@mail.gmail.com> Dear All, I was also hoping to read comments about the Delhi pride rally here, but i guess this is what happens when everyone waits to read and no one writes :) Nothing on the list yet so I thought I'd set the ball rolling and reflect on what i felt.. Last year, I spent most of the time standing outside regal with some friends who were part of the organizing team, trying to figure out who could be there for the pride rally and telling them about the last minute change of venue. (I'm personally against stereotypes of all kinds, but god did they help that day!) This year I got to march along from the start and it was quite the exhilarating experience that I had hoped for! I had heard that last year people had difficulty in identifying the starting point as it wasn't prominent enough. This year you couldn't miss it for all the media vans and the colourful arches flapping about in the light breeze. At the beginning it seemed as though there was more media than rally goers present! I had to push through the OB vans, microphone cables, camera persons and journalists practicing p2c's to get to the starting point.. I even overheard some interesting commentaries being recorded ("..lagta hai badalne ka waqt aa gaya hai" aka CNEB) and hope the media coverage was positive on the whole. I couldn't catch any of it on TV so would love to hear about it from those who did. The monsoon teaser earlier in the afternoon ensured we were all soaking in sweat even before the walking started. The organisers were prepared and efficient with their loudspeakers, whistles, banners and arches in place and we were promptly handed rainbow coloured badges as soon as we arrived. The bunch that got together at Saheli to paint banners must be commended for their great work that added a lot of colour, humour and character to the parade. My personal favourite read "ARE YOU HOMOPHOBIC?? SEE A PSYCHIATRIST OR GET MARRIED!" The march started with a drum roll from the appropriately named "asha" band and a bunch of people pulling a huge rainbow flag across the road and waving it excitedly. The band was a great idea and prompted much collective revelry and celebration. The usual sloganeering, cheering and banner waving accompanied the parade and seemed to increase in intensity with each step. The march was quite well organised and fun.. the police were present in large numbers and were polite and helpful. They even took sarcastic comments from a hijra in their stride and laughed along. I guess it was one of those rare days for a lot of people present when they could be themselves without having to fear the police. The news photographers had a field day with all the colourful activity to capture. (perhaps the organisers can ask them to make the photographs available for an archive..) An interesting thing I noticed was the reduced number of masks compared to last time. The somewhat drab masks of last year were replaced by the much better glitter covered, feathered half masks reminiscent of venetian masquerades! I wonder if the point of those was to hide one's identity because most people wearing them were happily posing for photographers and news videos. The other wonderful thing was the increased presence of women and transgender people at the march, specially since some of my women friends had to deal with loud exclamations of "what are women doing here!!??" at the fund raising party held earlier!! The queer community, it seems, is not without the looming presence of patriarchy and its share of the alpha males! No such issues at the parade however as everyone seemed to be happily participating and enjoying themselves. Nobody needed introductions as people came together for a common cause. A LOT of people were taking pictures, mobile videos etc. which would be doing the rounds of various social networking sites by now. There was also the curious presence of a group of people wearing Tee shirts that said "free hugs" standing by, but it didn't seem like people were waiting to be told that in print :) I had expected (hoped for) more rain and carried a large rainbow hued umbrella which I ended up using as a pride banner instead! It generated its share of attention with news camerapersons asking me to twirl it for their symbolic ending shots for their stories. (I really hope it came on the telly for the endless twirling they made me do!!!) A lot of other rallygoers seemed to like the umbrella as well and I gladly passed it around for what I guess are going to be various facebook profile pictures soon :) I even managed to find an umbrella mate, the only other guy with a queer umbrella, and he happened to be a friend's friend!! Unfortunately I had to rush off a a short while into the programme at jantar mantar and only heard a few speeches.. There was a street play and symbolic candle lighting planned which i missed and hope to hear about from other who stayed for it. I also don't know how the post-parade party was but there were busses taking people to someplace in noida to continue celebration. This was a free of charge event open to all so it might actually have been a fun party with diverse people. For once, there were no disclaimers to "dress appropriately" (read drag not allowed) which would have opened the party to cross dressers, transgender people and hijras who are usually excluded from club nights, or have to dress unnaturally. Here, everyone could be who they wanted, behave naturally, dress as they liked and feel accepted and loved for it! That for me is really the greatest thing about the pride rally where unlike most other events/parties/club nights where people come filtered through class, social background, gender and appearance, everyone can participate freely. We seem to preserve our prejudices within the queer community but occasionally, in such events, we realize, what the hell, we're all in this together! Perhaps that is the important thing about a pride rally.. The space where the "straight acting" men don't just awkwardly stare at those who they think are more flamboyant, but laugh, cheer and walk together. Where lesbian women can and do exist and are not glossed over like in most public discourse on homosexuality, nobody feels embarrassed about dancing with hijras and we face up to and address our sexual selves! The idea, perhaps, is to make a pride rally redundant and acceptance and celebration of differences a norm and this one is hopefully some kind of a move towards that. Would love to hear more accounts of the pride rally, specially about the parts i missed... and i wish all the luck to the proud ones in Bombay to make it massive and make it count! Manak. P.S. It's unfortunate that after the enthusiasm of the pride parades, the ministers are backtracking, seemingly a bit taken aback by all the attention. It's not like the religious heads consult the queer community before they preach!! On Mon, Jun 29, 2009 at 11:39 PM, Shuddhabrata Sengupta wrote: > Dear All, > > Surely, there must be people on this list who walked in the Queer > Pride Parades in Delhi, Bangalore, Madras and Kolkata (and > elsewhere). It would be great to have some first person accounts, of > atmosphere and responses. > > best > > Shuddha > > Shuddhabrata Sengupta > The Sarai Programme at CSDS > Raqs Media Collective > shuddha at sarai.net > www.sarai.net > www.raqsmediacollective.net > > > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > subscribe in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> -- Definitions belong to the definers not to the defined. From javedmasoo at gmail.com Tue Jun 30 22:40:11 2009 From: javedmasoo at gmail.com (M Javed) Date: Tue, 30 Jun 2009 22:40:11 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Who gives muftis the right to give fatwas? In-Reply-To: <652242.86480.qm@web53605.mail.re2.yahoo.com> References: <652242.86480.qm@web53605.mail.re2.yahoo.com> Message-ID: Dear Rahul Here is my clearer position: I have been brought up in an orthodox Muslim family where shariat was/is considered the ultimate law/norm to follow for a Muslim. But in my childhood days it wasn't considered such an evil thing (as Taliban has made it to be). Let me tell you, following shariat in our daily lives is very different from making it as a basis for governance. Shariat as a basis of governance is not something fixed any way - it has been interpreted differently in different Islamic countries. Indonesia, Malaysia or Turkey also follow shariat but their systems are much more liberal. That is why I insist: please don't see shariat only through the eyes of the Taliban/Afghanistan. Whatever name you give it, the point is, is your system of governance favourable for you. At the moment I am governed by democracy, whether I like it or not. There are many things I hate in democracy, and would love to change them one day (if I could), even adopt something from the shariat. Is there something wrong with that? Javed On Tue, Jun 30, 2009 at 6:55 PM, Rahul Asthana wrote: > > Dear Javed, > Could you make your position clearer on this issue? You say- > "My second minor difference is: when you say "We are not governed by > the Shariat, and I hope we never will be". I am not sure if Shariat is > all evil." > So, do you wish or do you not, to be governed by Shariat? > > (Not wishing to be governed by Shariat does not mean that it is evil.It also does not mean that we can't adopt good things from it.) > > Thanks > Rahul > > > > > --- On Tue, 6/30/09, M Javed wrote: > >> From: M Javed >> Subject: Re: [Reader-list] Who gives muftis the right to give fatwas? >> To: "Shuddhabrata Sengupta" , "sarai list" >> Date: Tuesday, June 30, 2009, 3:46 PM >> Dear Shuddhabrata >> Actually I have a slight digression from your answer. I >> don't care >> what fatwas the muftis give within their own coterie (I'm >> sure >> homosexual behaviour exists in the Deoband madrasa too), >> but the >> problem comes when this news is flashed on the front-page: >> it >> basically sends a clear signal that "Muslims" in general >> are against >> homo-sexuality and this is yet another example of how >> bigoted the >> entire community is, and there are absolutely no liberals >> (or >> queer-friendly) people among the Muslims and so on, which >> is not the >> case. In a way, any controversial fatwa from the Deoband >> (whichever >> damn topic) is taken by the media as a hot saucy news to be >> flashed to >> show the backwardness of Muslims. But my question is >> (especially to >> the mainstream media), do these damn fatwas really >> represent the >> entire Muslim community? Are they so important that you >> have to flash >> them as headlines. >> >> My second minor difference is: when you say "We are not >> governed by >> the Shariat, and I hope we never will be". I am not sure if >> Shariat is >> all evil. Although I don't practice it strictly, but I know >> it has >> many good things in it which make at least the good part of >> Islam >> alive. Don't see it only through the eyes of the Taliban. >> Whether we >> get governed by the shariat or not, I hope we could at >> least adopt the >> good things about it. And Shariat is not a fixed set of >> rules; it can >> be and should be open for interpretation, which these >> muftis have >> stopped doing. >> >> Thanks any way. >> >> Javed >> >> >> On Mon, Jun 29, 2009 at 10:53 PM, Shuddhabrata >> Sengupta >> wrote: >> > Dear Javed, >> > Thank you for forwarding this. I don't know who gives >> these muftis and >> > tuftis the right to give fatwas, I think they give it >> to themselves. And >> > since they routinely issue fatwas on all manner of >> ridiculous matters, we >> > might as well treat this one too with the lack of >> seriousness that it >> > deserves. >> > We are not governed by the Shariat, and I hope we >> never will be. Since we >> > are not governed by the Shariat, it hardly matters >> whether or not Maulana >> > Abdul Khalik Madrasi thinks homosexuality is an >> offence under Shariat Law. >> > Not even the relevant (and anachronistic, misogynist >> and patrarchal) >> > sections of Personal Law in matters of marriage and >> inheritance that govern >> > the lives of Indian Muslims have anything to say about >> sexual relations in >> > private between consenting adults. So, not even from >> the completely >> > unacceptabe (to me) standpoint of defending a separate >> civil code for >> > Muslims is it relevant to discuss the fate of Section >> 377. Maulana Madrasi >> > is barking up the wrong legal tree. >> > Finally, a small historical digression. Section 377 >> was introduced by the >> > British Colonial Administration in India. Which, as >> far as i recall, was not >> > exactly a model Islamic state. In fact, the British >> Colonial authorities >> > presided over the decline and destruction of >> 'nominally' Muslim political >> > power in India. if, for the roughly seven hundred >> years preceding the advent >> > of British rule in India, when the territory happened >> to be ruled largely by >> > Muslim rulers, (some of whom claimed to be guided by >> the Shariat) it was not >> > found necessary to invoke a draconian law like section >> 377, are we to then >> > understand that the British Colonial authority was >> more 'Islamic' than the >> > Mughal rulers, than the rulers of the Delhi sultanate, >> and many other kings >> > and princes of a Muslim persuasion. >> > And finally, how exactly would we remember a figure >> like the great Ghazi of >> > Islam - Mahmud of Ghazna and his love for Ayaz, or >> Razia Sultana and her >> > love for women, or the distinctly queer ecstasies of >> Amir Khusrau and >> > Sarmad. Each one of these people saw themselves as >> devout Muslim. And there >> > was nothing unusual in their being queer Muslims. >> Islamicate societies all >> > over the world have been historically far more >> tolerant of various different >> > kinds of same-sex relationships both male and female, >> and transgender >> > identities, than societies largely anchored in >> Christian values have been. >> > Islam is a sex positive religion. It celebrates the >> dignity, beauty and >> > diversity of the human body and all its desires. There >> is (and always has >> > been) a strong case for a queer theology of liberation >> that is rooted within >> > the Islamicate cultural universe, and it has had a >> long history, and it will >> > have a long future. >> > Maulana Madrasi is probably just as ignorant of the >> traditions he claims are >> > his own as Praveen Togadia, the firebrand leader of >> the Vishwa Hindu >> > Parishad, is. They would probably make an excellent >> couple, locked happily >> > together within their private closet of paranoia. >> > Meanwhile, let us hope that Veerappa Moily's supposed >> u-turn is only a >> > digression, and that the provisions in Section 377 >> that criminalize the >> > behaviour of consenting adults in private (which >> should not be the business >> > of the state)  are consigned finally to where they >> belong - the dustbin of >> > history. >> > And congratulations to all those who paraded on the >> streets of Delhi, >> > Bangalore, Madras and Calcutta. The future belongs to >> you (and us all) not >> > to the likes of Maulana Madrasi. >> > regards >> > Shuddha >> > On 29-Jun-09, at 3:54 PM, M Javed wrote: >> > >> > Gay sex against tenets of Islam: Deoband >> > 29 Jun 2009, 1353 hrs IST, PTI >> > MUZAFFARNAGAR, UP: A leading Islamic seminary on >> Monday opposed >> > Centre's move to repeal a controversial section of the >> penal law which >> > criminalises homosexuality saying unnatural sex is >> against the tenets of >> > Islam. >> > "Homosexuality is an offence under Shariat Law and >> haram (prohibited) >> > in Islam," deputy vice chancellor of the Darul Uloom >> Deoband Maulana >> > Abdul Khalik Madrasi said. >> > Madrasi also asked the government not to repeal >> section 377 of IPC >> > which criminalises homosexuality. >> > His objection came a day after law minister Veerappa >> Moily said a >> > decision on repealing the section would be taken only >> after >> > considering concerns of all sections of the society, >> including >> > religious groups like the church. >> > Terming gay activities as crime, Maulana Salim Kasmi, >> vice-president >> > of the All-India Muslim Personal Law Board (AIMPLB), >> said >> > homosexuality is punishable under Islamic law and >> section 377 of IPC >> > should not be tampered. >> > Maulana Mohd Sufiyan Kasmi, an AIMPLB member, and >> Mufti Zulfikar, >> > president of Uttar Pradesh Imam Organisation have also >> expressed >> > similar views on the issue. >> > Kasmi said it would be harmful for the society to >> legalise gay sex. >> > Buoyed by the news that the Centre is considering >> repealing the >> > controversial section of the IPC, members of the gay >> community on >> > Sunday held parades in several cities. >> > http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/Gay-sex-against-tenets-of-Islam-Deoband/articleshow/4715517.cms >> > _________________________________________ >> > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the >> city. >> > Critiques & Collaborations >> > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net >> with subscribe >> > in the subject header. >> > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list >> > List archive: >> > >> > Shuddhabrata Sengupta >> > The Sarai Programme at CSDS >> > Raqs Media Collective >> > shuddha at sarai.net >> > www.sarai.net >> > www.raqsmediacollective.net >> > >> > >> _________________________________________ >> reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the >> city. >> Critiques & Collaborations >> To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net >> with subscribe in the subject header. >> To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list >> List archive: > > > > From rahul_capri at yahoo.com Tue Jun 30 23:06:14 2009 From: rahul_capri at yahoo.com (Rahul Asthana) Date: Tue, 30 Jun 2009 10:36:14 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Reader-list] Who gives muftis the right to give fatwas? Message-ID: <794394.39920.qm@web53602.mail.re2.yahoo.com> Dear Javed, I don't think you have thought this through,which is why you are unable to make the distinction between "adopt something from the shariat" and "being governed by shariat".I just wanted to know whether you are in favor of making "Shariat a basis for governance" or not.This is the key .Everything else is just gravy. Thanks Rahul --- On Tue, 6/30/09, M Javed wrote: > From: M Javed > Subject: Re: [Reader-list] Who gives muftis the right to give fatwas? > To: "Rahul Asthana" > Cc: "Shuddhabrata Sengupta" , "sarai list" > Date: Tuesday, June 30, 2009, 10:40 PM > Dear Rahul > Here is my clearer position: I have been brought up in an > orthodox > Muslim family where shariat was/is considered the ultimate > law/norm to > follow for a Muslim. But in my childhood days it wasn't > considered > such an evil thing (as Taliban has made it to be). Let me > tell you, > following shariat in our daily lives is very different from > making it > as a basis for governance. Shariat as a basis of governance > is not > something fixed any way - it has been interpreted > differently in > different Islamic countries. Indonesia, Malaysia or Turkey > also follow > shariat but their systems are much more liberal. That is > why I insist: > please don't see shariat only through the eyes of the > Taliban/Afghanistan. > > Whatever name you give it, the point is, is your system of > governance > favourable for you. At the moment I am governed by > democracy, whether > I like it or not. There are many things I hate in > democracy, and would > love to change them one day (if I could), even adopt > something from > the shariat. Is there something wrong with that? > > Javed > > On Tue, Jun 30, 2009 at 6:55 PM, Rahul Asthana > wrote: > > > > Dear Javed, > > Could you make your position clearer on this issue? > You say- > > "My second minor difference is: when you say "We are > not governed by > > the Shariat, and I hope we never will be". I am not > sure if Shariat is > > all evil." > > So, do you wish or do you not, to be governed by > Shariat? > > > > (Not wishing to be governed by Shariat does not mean > that it is evil.It also does not mean that we can't adopt > good things from it.) > > > > Thanks > > Rahul > > > > > > > > > > --- On Tue, 6/30/09, M Javed > wrote: > > > >> From: M Javed > >> Subject: Re: [Reader-list] Who gives muftis the > right to give fatwas? > >> To: "Shuddhabrata Sengupta" , > "sarai list" > >> Date: Tuesday, June 30, 2009, 3:46 PM > >> Dear Shuddhabrata > >> Actually I have a slight digression from your > answer. I > >> don't care > >> what fatwas the muftis give within their own > coterie (I'm > >> sure > >> homosexual behaviour exists in the Deoband madrasa > too), > >> but the > >> problem comes when this news is flashed on the > front-page: > >> it > >> basically sends a clear signal that "Muslims" in > general > >> are against > >> homo-sexuality and this is yet another example of > how > >> bigoted the > >> entire community is, and there are absolutely no > liberals > >> (or > >> queer-friendly) people among the Muslims and so > on, which > >> is not the > >> case. In a way, any controversial fatwa from the > Deoband > >> (whichever > >> damn topic) is taken by the media as a hot saucy > news to be > >> flashed to > >> show the backwardness of Muslims. But my question > is > >> (especially to > >> the mainstream media), do these damn fatwas > really > >> represent the > >> entire Muslim community? Are they so important > that you > >> have to flash > >> them as headlines. > >> > >> My second minor difference is: when you say "We > are not > >> governed by > >> the Shariat, and I hope we never will be". I am > not sure if > >> Shariat is > >> all evil. Although I don't practice it strictly, > but I know > >> it has > >> many good things in it which make at least the > good part of > >> Islam > >> alive. Don't see it only through the eyes of the > Taliban. > >> Whether we > >> get governed by the shariat or not, I hope we > could at > >> least adopt the > >> good things about it. And Shariat is not a fixed > set of > >> rules; it can > >> be and should be open for interpretation, which > these > >> muftis have > >> stopped doing. > >> > >> Thanks any way. > >> > >> Javed > >> > >> > >> On Mon, Jun 29, 2009 at 10:53 PM, Shuddhabrata > >> Sengupta > >> wrote: > >> > Dear Javed, > >> > Thank you for forwarding this. I don't know > who gives > >> these muftis and > >> > tuftis the right to give fatwas, I think they > give it > >> to themselves. And > >> > since they routinely issue fatwas on all > manner of > >> ridiculous matters, we > >> > might as well treat this one too with the > lack of > >> seriousness that it > >> > deserves. > >> > We are not governed by the Shariat, and I > hope we > >> never will be. Since we > >> > are not governed by the Shariat, it hardly > matters > >> whether or not Maulana > >> > Abdul Khalik Madrasi thinks homosexuality is > an > >> offence under Shariat Law. > >> > Not even the relevant (and anachronistic, > misogynist > >> and patrarchal) > >> > sections of Personal Law in matters of > marriage and > >> inheritance that govern > >> > the lives of Indian Muslims have anything to > say about > >> sexual relations in > >> > private between consenting adults. So, not > even from > >> the completely > >> > unacceptabe (to me) standpoint of defending a > separate > >> civil code for > >> > Muslims is it relevant to discuss the fate of > Section > >> 377. Maulana Madrasi > >> > is barking up the wrong legal tree. > >> > Finally, a small historical digression. > Section 377 > >> was introduced by the > >> > British Colonial Administration in India. > Which, as > >> far as i recall, was not > >> > exactly a model Islamic state. In fact, the > British > >> Colonial authorities > >> > presided over the decline and destruction of > >> 'nominally' Muslim political > >> > power in India. if, for the roughly seven > hundred > >> years preceding the advent > >> > of British rule in India, when the territory > happened > >> to be ruled largely by > >> > Muslim rulers, (some of whom claimed to be > guided by > >> the Shariat) it was not > >> > found necessary to invoke a draconian law > like section > >> 377, are we to then > >> > understand that the British Colonial > authority was > >> more 'Islamic' than the > >> > Mughal rulers, than the rulers of the Delhi > sultanate, > >> and many other kings > >> > and princes of a Muslim persuasion. > >> > And finally, how exactly would we remember a > figure > >> like the great Ghazi of > >> > Islam - Mahmud of Ghazna and his love for > Ayaz, or > >> Razia Sultana and her > >> > love for women, or the distinctly queer > ecstasies of > >> Amir Khusrau and > >> > Sarmad. Each one of these people saw > themselves as > >> devout Muslim. And there > >> > was nothing unusual in their being queer > Muslims. > >> Islamicate societies all > >> > over the world have been historically far > more > >> tolerant of various different > >> > kinds of same-sex relationships both male and > female, > >> and transgender > >> > identities, than societies largely anchored > in > >> Christian values have been. > >> > Islam is a sex positive religion. It > celebrates the > >> dignity, beauty and > >> > diversity of the human body and all its > desires. There > >> is (and always has > >> > been) a strong case for a queer theology of > liberation > >> that is rooted within > >> > the Islamicate cultural universe, and it has > had a > >> long history, and it will > >> > have a long future. > >> > Maulana Madrasi is probably just as ignorant > of the > >> traditions he claims are > >> > his own as Praveen Togadia, the firebrand > leader of > >> the Vishwa Hindu > >> > Parishad, is. They would probably make an > excellent > >> couple, locked happily > >> > together within their private closet of > paranoia. > >> > Meanwhile, let us hope that Veerappa Moily's > supposed > >> u-turn is only a > >> > digression, and that the provisions in > Section 377 > >> that criminalize the > >> > behaviour of consenting adults in private > (which > >> should not be the business > >> > of the state)  are consigned finally to > where they > >> belong - the dustbin of > >> > history. > >> > And congratulations to all those who paraded > on the > >> streets of Delhi, > >> > Bangalore, Madras and Calcutta. The future > belongs to > >> you (and us all) not > >> > to the likes of Maulana Madrasi. > >> > regards > >> > Shuddha > >> > On 29-Jun-09, at 3:54 PM, M Javed wrote: > >> > > >> > Gay sex against tenets of Islam: Deoband > >> > 29 Jun 2009, 1353 hrs IST, PTI > >> > MUZAFFARNAGAR, UP: A leading Islamic seminary > on > >> Monday opposed > >> > Centre's move to repeal a controversial > section of the > >> penal law which > >> > criminalises homosexuality saying unnatural > sex is > >> against the tenets of > >> > Islam. > >> > "Homosexuality is an offence under Shariat > Law and > >> haram (prohibited) > >> > in Islam," deputy vice chancellor of the > Darul Uloom > >> Deoband Maulana > >> > Abdul Khalik Madrasi said. > >> > Madrasi also asked the government not to > repeal > >> section 377 of IPC > >> > which criminalises homosexuality. > >> > His objection came a day after law minister > Veerappa > >> Moily said a > >> > decision on repealing the section would be > taken only > >> after > >> > considering concerns of all sections of the > society, > >> including > >> > religious groups like the church. > >> > Terming gay activities as crime, Maulana > Salim Kasmi, > >> vice-president > >> > of the All-India Muslim Personal Law Board > (AIMPLB), > >> said > >> > homosexuality is punishable under Islamic law > and > >> section 377 of IPC > >> > should not be tampered. > >> > Maulana Mohd Sufiyan Kasmi, an AIMPLB member, > and > >> Mufti Zulfikar, > >> > president of Uttar Pradesh Imam Organisation > have also > >> expressed > >> > similar views on the issue. > >> > Kasmi said it would be harmful for the > society to > >> legalise gay sex. > >> > Buoyed by the news that the Centre is > considering > >> repealing the > >> > controversial section of the IPC, members of > the gay > >> community on > >> > Sunday held parades in several cities. > >> > http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/Gay-sex-against-tenets-of-Islam-Deoband/articleshow/4715517.cms > >> > _________________________________________ > >> > reader-list: an open discussion list on media > and the > >> city. > >> > Critiques & Collaborations > >> > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net > >> with subscribe > >> > in the subject header. > >> > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > >> > List archive: > >> > > >> > Shuddhabrata Sengupta > >> > The Sarai Programme at CSDS > >> > Raqs Media Collective > >> > shuddha at sarai.net > >> > www.sarai.net > >> > www.raqsmediacollective.net > >> > > >> > > >> _________________________________________ > >> reader-list: an open discussion list on media and > the > >> city. > >> Critiques & Collaborations > >> To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net > >> with subscribe in the subject header. > >> To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > >> List archive: > > > > > > > > > From nc-agricowi at netcologne.de Mon Jun 29 11:16:29 2009 From: nc-agricowi at netcologne.de (artNET) Date: Mon, 29 Jun 2009 07:46:29 +0200 Subject: [Reader-list] =?iso-8859-1?q?=5BAnnouncements=5D_netEX=3A_calls_?= =?iso-8859-1?q?=26_deadlines_--=3EJuly_2009?= Message-ID: <20090629074629.E49BDFC3.F48C6ED4@192.168.0.3> netEX: calls & deadlines -->July 2009 ------------------------------------- [NewMediaArtProjectNetwork]:||cologne newsletter contents calls & deadlines 04 Calls: 2009 deadlines internal 16 Calls: July 2009 deadlines external 9 Calls: ongoing external/internal ------------------------------------------------ Calls & deadlines ---> ------------------------------------------------ 2009: deadlines internal Deadline: 30 September A Virtual Memorial - memorial project environments is looking for artists who work on the subject "SHOAH" in digital media, primarily videoart/filmart, but also netart, soundart, digital photography and media installation http://www.nmartproject.net/netex/?p=662 Deadline: 1 September CologneOFF - Cologne Online Film Festival is looking for film and video submissions for its 5th festival edition to be launched in November 2009 on the topics "violence" & "taboo" http://www.nmartproject.net/netex/?p=1030 special section for German film & videos http://www.nmartproject.net/netex/?p=694 **Deadline 1 September CologneOFF Online Film Festival sucht deutsche Autoren von Kurzfilmen und -videos für ein Feature im Rahmen des 5. Festivalausgabe, welche im November 2009 veröffentlicht wird http://www.nmartproject.net/netex/?p=694 *extended Deadline 31 August 2009 Cinematheque - streaming media project environments call: Flash & Thunder - Flash as a medium and tool for artistic creations http://www.nmartproject.net/netex/?p=408 ------------------------------------------------ July 2009 deadlines: external ------------------------------------------------ 31 July Pantheon Xperimetal Film festival 8.0 Nicosia/Cyprus http://www.nmartproject.net/netex/?p=728 31 July Riders on the Train - Axiom Gallery - MA/USA http://www.nmartproject.net/netex/?p=1246 31 July Transmediale 10 Berlin/Germany http://www.nmartproject.net/netex/?p=1075 31 July Short Film Festival Leuven/Belgium http://www.nmartproject.net/netex/?p=1180 31 July Going Underground 8 - Berlin/Germany http://www.nmartproject.net/netex/?p=996 31 July AZA Intern. Short Film Festival Thessaloniki/Greece http://www.nmartproject.net/netex/?p=1086 31 July Voices from the Water - Film Festival Bangalore/India http://www.nmartproject.net/netex/?p=1018 18 July Balmoral Scholarships 2010 http://www.nmartproject.net/netex/?p=1122 15 July 23rd Images Festival Toronto/Ca http://www.nmartproject.net/netex/?p=1173 15 July Elektronentoto- Video Contest - Open Source Festival Düsseldorf/Germany http://www.nmartproject.net/netex/?p=1252 15 July 3rd International Film Festival L’Aquila/Italy http://www.nmartproject.net/netex/?p=987 13 July Screengrab 2009 - James Cook Inivesity Townsville/Australia http://www.nmartproject.net/netex/?p=1249 7 July Int. Short Film Festival - SEDICICORTO - Forli/Italy http://www.nmartproject.net/netex/?p=1190 5 July Audience09 Festival Syracuse/NY - USA http://www.nmartproject.net/netex/?p=1196 3 July Exhibition: Suversive Correspondance Bristol/UK http://www.nmartproject.net/netex/?p=1214 1 July Betting on Shorts Festival 2009 London/UK http://www.nmartproject.net/netex/?p=992 ----------------------------------------------- Ongoing calls: external/internal ----------------------------------------------- -->Videos for Bivouac Projects Sumter/USA -->OUTCASTING - web based screenings -->Films and video screenings Sioux City (USA) -->Laisle screenings Rio de Janeiro/Brazil -->Videos for Helsinki based video gallery - 00130 Gallery -->Web based works for 00130 Gallery Helsinki/Finland -->Project: Repetition as a Model for Progression by Marianne Holm Hansen -->US webjournal Atomic Unicorn seeks netart and video art for coming editions -->TAGallery and more deadlines on http://www.nmartproject.net/netex/?page_id=4 ----------------------------------------------- NetEX - networked experience http://netex.nmartproject.net # calls in the external section--> http://www.nmartproject.net/netex/?cat=3 # calls in the internal section--> http://www.nmartproject.net/netex/?cat=1 ----------------------------------------------- # This newsletter is also released on http://www.nmartproject.net/netex/?cat=9 # netEX - networked experiences is a free information service powered by [NewMediaArtProjectNetwork]:||cologne http://www.nmartproject.net - the experimental platform for art and new media from Cologne/Germany # info & contact: info (at) nmartproject.net _______________________________________________ announcements mailing list announcements at sarai.net https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/announcements From alice at tank.tv Tue Jun 30 16:25:56 2009 From: alice at tank.tv (Alice O'Reilly) Date: Tue, 30 Jun 2009 11:55:56 +0100 Subject: [Reader-list] Lisa Oppenheim on www.tank.tv 1st - 21st July 2009 Message-ID: <442eb4460906300355y7593bffdmeaf4503de485156@mail.gmail.com> *Lisa Oppenheim 1st - 21st July 2009 on www.tank.tv ** * tank.tv is pleased to present several works by Lisa Oppenheim, including: new work Yule Log, E-M-P-I-R-E, No Closer to the Source (July 20,1969), The Sun is Always Setting Somewhere Else and Story, Study, Print. "Lisa Oppenheim’s work constitutes an archaeology of visual culture. She brings the hidden, under-appreciated and repressed into view, and in the process reveals an ordering of things that goes beyond our commonplace responses. Her work ranges from damaged negatives from early 20th century news stories, personal photographs posted on ‘Flicker’ by soldiers serving in Iraq through to the constellation of the day and location of famous historical media stories." Press Release from ‘The Making of Americans’ at STORE 2008. Lisa Oppenheim won the Illy art prize in 2007 and has shown her work widely around the globe. Recent exhibitions include: The Making of Americans, STORE, London; Sudden White (after London), GSK Contemporary at the Royal Academy of Arts, London; Quiet Politics, Zwirner & Wirth, New York and The Why of Life, Swiss Institute, New York. Lisa Oppenheim currently lives and works in New York. *Visit www.tank.tv from the 1st - 21st July to view the selection as well as an interview with the artist.* -- -- - - - - - - - - - - - - Alice O'Reilly tank.tv 2nd Floor Princess House 50 - 60 Eastcastle Street London W1W 8EA alice at tank.tv T: +44 (0)207323 3475 F: +44 (0)207631 4280 http://www.tank.tv - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Now showing: Thomas Hirschhorn 8th - 30th June 2009 'Fresh Moves' - Order your copy on www.tank.tv "A significant archive of creative practices in the early years of twenty-first century England" Tyler Coburn, Tomorrow Unlimited --- tank.tv is an inspirational showcase for innovative work in film and video. Dedicated to exhibiting and promoting emerging and established international artists, www.tank.tv acts as a major online gallery and archive for video art. A platform for contemporary moving images. From alice at tank.tv Tue Jun 30 16:25:56 2009 From: alice at tank.tv (Alice O'Reilly) Date: Tue, 30 Jun 2009 11:55:56 +0100 Subject: [Reader-list] [Announcements] Lisa Oppenheim on www.tank.tv 1st - 21st July 2009 Message-ID: <442eb4460906300355y7593bffdmeaf4503de485156@mail.gmail.com> *Lisa Oppenheim 1st - 21st July 2009 on www.tank.tv ** * tank.tv is pleased to present several works by Lisa Oppenheim, including: new work Yule Log, E-M-P-I-R-E, No Closer to the Source (July 20,1969), The Sun is Always Setting Somewhere Else and Story, Study, Print. "Lisa Oppenheim’s work constitutes an archaeology of visual culture. She brings the hidden, under-appreciated and repressed into view, and in the process reveals an ordering of things that goes beyond our commonplace responses. Her work ranges from damaged negatives from early 20th century news stories, personal photographs posted on ‘Flicker’ by soldiers serving in Iraq through to the constellation of the day and location of famous historical media stories." Press Release from ‘The Making of Americans’ at STORE 2008. Lisa Oppenheim won the Illy art prize in 2007 and has shown her work widely around the globe. Recent exhibitions include: The Making of Americans, STORE, London; Sudden White (after London), GSK Contemporary at the Royal Academy of Arts, London; Quiet Politics, Zwirner & Wirth, New York and The Why of Life, Swiss Institute, New York. Lisa Oppenheim currently lives and works in New York. *Visit www.tank.tv from the 1st - 21st July to view the selection as well as an interview with the artist.* -- -- - - - - - - - - - - - - Alice O'Reilly tank.tv 2nd Floor Princess House 50 - 60 Eastcastle Street London W1W 8EA alice at tank.tv T: +44 (0)207323 3475 F: +44 (0)207631 4280 http://www.tank.tv - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Now showing: Thomas Hirschhorn 8th - 30th June 2009 'Fresh Moves' - Order your copy on www.tank.tv "A significant archive of creative practices in the early years of twenty-first century England" Tyler Coburn, Tomorrow Unlimited --- tank.tv is an inspirational showcase for innovative work in film and video. Dedicated to exhibiting and promoting emerging and established international artists, www.tank.tv acts as a major online gallery and archive for video art. A platform for contemporary moving images. -------------- next part -------------- _______________________________________________ announcements mailing list announcements at sarai.net https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/announcements From nc-agricowi at netcologne.de Tue Jun 30 12:20:45 2009 From: nc-agricowi at netcologne.de (the-network) Date: Tue, 30 Jun 2009 08:50:45 +0200 Subject: [Reader-list] =?iso-8859-1?q?=5BAnnouncements=5D_The_Network_even?= =?iso-8859-1?q?ts_-_July_2009?= Message-ID: <20090630085045.7E69B87C.A7190E71@192.168.0.3> [NewMediaArtProjectNetwork]:||cologne - www.nmartproject.net the experimental platform for art and new media from Cologne/Germany is happy to announce the July 2009 events 1. Experimental Film Festival - Image Contre Nature - http://www.p-silo.org/ Marseille/France 7-11 July 2009 opens the festival with CologneOFF - Cologne Online Film Festival as "Card Blanche" --> CologneOFF IV - Here We Are! - curated by Wilfried Agricola de Cologne featuring films by Dario Bardic (Croatia) , Nhieu Do (USA), Michael Fortune (Ireland) Miri Nishri (Israel), David Jakubovic (USA), Shoko Toda (Japan) Liu Wei (China), Yu Cheng Yu (Taiwan). 2. Video Art Festival Miden - www.festivalmiden.gr 10-12 July 2009 - Kalamata/Greece - is presenting "CologneOFF - Here We Are" - featuring films by Dario Bardic (Croatia), Giuseppe Girardi (Italy) Sinasi Günes (Turkey), Mihai Grecu (Romania) David Jakubovic (USA), Miri Nishri (Israel) Felipe Matilla Alonso (Spain), Daniel Slattnes (Norway) Yin-Ling Chen (Taiwan), Jay Needham (USA), Nhieu Do (USA) and VideoChannel -Women Directors Cut 13:13:13 curated Wilfried Agricola de Cologne - featurig videos by Rahel Maher (Australia), Larissa Sansour (Palestine) Unnur A. Einarsdottir (Iceland), Oksana Shatalova/Alla Girik (Kazakhstan) Beatrice Allegranti (UK), Ina Loitzl (Austria) Johanna Reich (Germany) , Letitia El Halli Obeid (Argentina) Margarida Paiva (Portugal), Sonja VUK (Croatia) Clare Ultimo (USA), Nancy Atakan (Turkey) Silvia Cacciatori Filloy (Uruguay) 3. VideoFestival Celje Slovenia - 2-5. July 2009 http://videorats.org - is presenting "CologneOFF invites....". screening program Videofestival Miden - Kalamata/Greece --> Realities, surrealities and other crimes… Greek video art curated by Gioula Papadopoulou - featuring videos by Nikos Pastras,, Yiannis Konstantinou, Giorgos Nasios Martha Koumarianou, Eva Poulopoulou, Leonidas Konstadinidis Ioanna Myrka, Anastasia Diavasti, Andreas Voussouras Nina Kotamanidou, Eileen Botsford, Kiki Petratou, Konstantinos Vaviloussakis Katerina Gaka, Anna Tsichli, Giorgos Itoudis, Danai Konstanta 4. VideoChannel - video project environments http://videochannel.newmediafest.org launches in July the feature of German videoart "Johanna Reich" - video artist from Cologne/Germany --> http://videochannel.newmediafest.org/blog/?page_id=273 5. FILE Hipersonica Festival - Sao Paulo/Brazil - 28 July - 30 August 2009 presents "soundPOOL - sound composition a challenge for imagiantion" curated by Wilfried Agricola de Cologne read more on --> http://soundlab.newmediafest.org/blog/?page_id=185 6. File - Electronic Language Festival - http://www.file.org.br Sao Paulo Brazil - 28 July - 30 Augist 2009 presents in the media art section the Agricola de Cologne videos --> Silent Cry (2008) - http://movingpictures.agricola-de-cologne.de/blog?page_id=47 and --> timedOUT (2008) - http://movingpictures.agricola-de-cologne.de/blog?page_id=44 7. Experimental Film Festival - Image Contre Nature - http://www.p-silo.org/ Marseille/France 7-11 July 2009 - presents the Agricola de Cologne films Encoded (2008) - --> http://movingpictures.agricola-de-cologne.de/blog?page_id=39 and One Day on Mars - --> http://movingpictures.agricola-de-cologne.de/blog?page_id=3 8. Video Art Festival Miden - www.festivalmiden.gr 10-12 July 2008 - Kalamata (Greece) - is presenting the Agricola de Cologne video - "Burning Phantom" --> http://movingpictures.agricola-de-cologne.de/blog?page_id=52 ----------------------------------------------------------------- CologneOFF - Cologne Online Film Festival - http://coff.newmediafest.org VideoChannel - video project environments - http://videochannel.newmediafest.org SoundLAB -sonic art project environments - http://soundlab.newmediafestorg Agricola de Cologne site - http://www.agricola-de-cologne.de are corporate parts of [NewMediaArtProjectNetwork]:||cologne - www.nmartproject.net the experimental platform for art and new media from Cologne/Germany info (at) nmartproject.net ----------------------------------------------------------------- _______________________________________________ announcements mailing list announcements at sarai.net https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/announcements From difusion at medialab-prado.es Tue Jun 30 14:12:00 2009 From: difusion at medialab-prado.es (difusion) Date: Tue, 30 Jun 2009 10:42:00 +0200 Subject: [Reader-list] [Announcements] P2P Networks and Processes Seminar - July 6 - 10 / Medialab-Prado Message-ID: <4A49CFD8.6010608@medialab-prado.es> *The 4th Inclusiva-net Encounter: P2P Networks and Processes will take place in Medialab-Prado Madrid from July 6 to 10, 2009. * The goal of this international meeting is to debate about social and cultural potentials of these peer-to-peer networked systems, as well as their feasibility as an alternative model of knowledge production, based in collaboration, decentralization and the lack of hierarchy. This new edition of the Inclusiva-net platform includes a program of lectures, seminars, round tables, paper presentations, and debate groups. The topic will be addressed from many different perspectives, such as cultural, philosophy, politics, technology, or law. Core themes: artistic and social potentials; application of P2P organizational models to knowledge and social life, legal controversies of file downloading, "panarchy" and "P2P governance" concepts, roles in the emergent countries, the future of P2P, among others. Participants: *Andoni Alonso* (writer and philosopher),* Michel Bauwens* (Foundation for Peer-to-Peer Alternatives), *Javier de la Cueva* (derecho-internet.org), *Juan Freire* (Business School EOI), *Antonio Lafuente* (Blog Tecnocidanos / CSIC), *Margarita Padilla* (Sindominio.net) or *Juan Martín Prada* (director of Inclusiva-net), among others. Limited seating. RSVP for general program and debate groups. http://medialab-prado.es/article/4_encuentro_internacional_inclusiva-net_redes_y_procesos_p2p *Inclusiva-net: P2P Networks and Processes Internacional Seminar July 6 - 10, 2009 in Medialab-Prado *Plaza de las Letras Calle Alameda, 15 28014 Madrid tel. 914020 754 difusion at medialab-prado.es -------------- next part -------------- _______________________________________________ announcements mailing list announcements at sarai.net https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/announcements