From pkray11 at gmail.com Wed Apr 1 01:36:11 2009 From: pkray11 at gmail.com (prakash ray) Date: Wed, 1 Apr 2009 01:36:11 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Mallika Sarabhai's Public Meeting in JNU on 31st March Message-ID: <98f331e00903311306s19575fb2la3f1c9c6cd4c9b21@mail.gmail.com> Hi all, Some people have talked about Dr Mallika Sarabhai's visit to JNU. As an organizer of the meeting in JNU, I would like to say something on this. She was in Delhi on 31st to attend a prograame where she received an award. Since she was here, we decided to have an interactive session with her and also to get volunteers and support. I would also like to mention that a large number of students and teachers along with people from outside JNU attended the session and had a long conversation with her on her mission and decision to contest election from Gandhinagar. As far as the choice of venue is concerned, it could be any place. If someone is bothered, let me remind him that JNU along with the secular, democratic and progressive sections of society stood up against the carnage in Gujarat presided over by the then Home Minister L K Advani and the CM of the state Narendra Modi and carried out by the fascists of VHP-Bajrang Dal-BJP under the command of the monstorous RSS. A lunatic called Pravin Togadia (GURU of Varun Gandhi) alongwith Mr Modi demanded that JNU should be closed. However, JNU is still running but Togadia has been barred by the Law from visiting a large parts of the country. Anyway, when we heard that Dr Mallika Sarabhai has decided to contest against somebody who led the destruction of the social fabric of India, we decided to support her in every possible way. Her fight is very important for the entire country. Mr Advani is not only a candidate nor only a BJP leader, he is the man who communalized the society and masterminded uncountable atrocities against minorities continuing till date. He led the violent mob responsible of the destruction of the Babri Mosque. What to say about his role when the Carnage 2002 took place!! Home Minister!! Watching!! Shame!! He writes in his book that he was not aware about the decisions taken during the Kandhar Plane Hijack. Who kept you in the dark, Mr Lauh Purush?? ........ In this backdrop, the contest in Gandhinagar becomes vital for the future of the Indian democracy. However, all seats are important. The communal fascists must be defeated along with the bancrupt Congress. We have alternatives. We will elect them. Come one! Come all!! Prakash From pawan.durani at gmail.com Wed Apr 1 02:23:26 2009 From: pawan.durani at gmail.com (Pawan Durani) Date: Wed, 1 Apr 2009 02:23:26 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Mallika Sarabhai's Public Meeting in JNU on 31st March In-Reply-To: <98f331e00903311306s19575fb2la3f1c9c6cd4c9b21@mail.gmail.com> References: <98f331e00903311306s19575fb2la3f1c9c6cd4c9b21@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <6b79f1a70903311353l4517e60fk8b0a9394e24692d6@mail.gmail.com> Mr Ray , With this kind of writing and without an idea of context , I really wonder how does the JNU tolerate you ? Has the standard of JNU fallen so low ? Pawan On Wed, Apr 1, 2009 at 1:36 AM, prakash ray wrote: > Hi all, > > Some people have talked about Dr Mallika Sarabhai's visit to JNU. As an > organizer of the meeting in JNU, I would like to say something on this. She > was in Delhi on 31st to attend a prograame where she received an award. > Since she was here, we decided to have an interactive session with her and > also to get volunteers and support. I would also like to mention that a > large number of students and teachers along with people from outside JNU > attended the session and had a long conversation with her on her mission > and > decision to contest election from Gandhinagar. > > As far as the choice of venue is concerned, it could be any place. If > someone is bothered, let me remind him that JNU along with the secular, > democratic and progressive sections of society stood up against the carnage > in Gujarat presided over by the then Home Minister L K Advani and the CM of > the state Narendra Modi and carried out by the fascists of VHP-Bajrang > Dal-BJP under the command of the monstorous RSS. A lunatic called Pravin > Togadia (GURU of Varun Gandhi) alongwith Mr Modi demanded that JNU should > be > closed. However, JNU is still running but Togadia has been barred by the > Law > from visiting a large parts of the country. Anyway, when we heard that Dr > Mallika Sarabhai has decided to contest against somebody who led the > destruction of the social fabric of India, we decided to support her in > every possible way. Her fight is very important for the entire country. Mr > Advani is not only a candidate nor only a BJP leader, he is the man who > communalized the society and masterminded uncountable atrocities against > minorities continuing till date. He led the violent mob responsible of the > destruction of the Babri Mosque. What to say about his role when the > Carnage > 2002 took place!! Home Minister!! Watching!! Shame!! He writes in his book > that he was not aware about the decisions taken during the Kandhar Plane > Hijack. Who kept you in the dark, Mr Lauh Purush?? ........ > > In this backdrop, the contest in Gandhinagar becomes vital for the future > of > the Indian democracy. However, all seats are important. The communal > fascists must be defeated along with the bancrupt Congress. We have > alternatives. We will elect them. Come one! Come all!! > > > > Prakash > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > subscribe in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> > From rakesh.rnbdj at gmail.com Wed Apr 1 07:17:38 2009 From: rakesh.rnbdj at gmail.com (Rakesh Iyer) Date: Wed, 1 Apr 2009 07:17:38 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Mallika Sarabhai's Public Meeting in JNU on 31st March In-Reply-To: <6b79f1a70903311353l4517e60fk8b0a9394e24692d6@mail.gmail.com> References: <98f331e00903311306s19575fb2la3f1c9c6cd4c9b21@mail.gmail.com> <6b79f1a70903311353l4517e60fk8b0a9394e24692d6@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: Dear Pawan What kind of context are you talking about? And if any context is fit enough to justify killings, then can you tell me why do you think Babur is wrong, for after all he was only trying to bring about the Mughal rule in India, and who knows whether he actually believed in what he wrote or it was only a gimmick to ensure that the Muslim clergy was satisfied? Even assuming he believed in it, he wanted to establish 'Islamic' rule. So he destroyed and looted temples. Do you mean to say this context justifies these killings? And hence the BJP's context of destroying masjids and mazars is justified? As for the JNU, it has been by and large a leftist university. What is the problem with that? After all, before talking of the 'low standards' of the JNU, go and read history in the numerous 'Saraswati Shishu Mandir' schools run by RSS across the country, and you would be ashamed. After reading that history, Khushwant Singh had once commented that even the British would be surprised that it has more communalizing content than that taught in history under the British rule in India to practise 'divide and rule'. I have problems with the leftist violence unleashed in the name of Maoism as well as with their economic policies somewhat. But does that mean we go on ridiculing them? And if yes, it is better to first ridicule the BJP and their Sangh Parivar, which will destroy the very foundations on which the Indian state and Indian democracy were established. Regards Rakesh From pawan.durani at gmail.com Wed Apr 1 09:26:13 2009 From: pawan.durani at gmail.com (Pawan Durani) Date: Wed, 1 Apr 2009 09:26:13 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Mallika Sarabhai's Public Meeting in JNU on 31st March In-Reply-To: References: <98f331e00903311306s19575fb2la3f1c9c6cd4c9b21@mail.gmail.com> <6b79f1a70903311353l4517e60fk8b0a9394e24692d6@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <6b79f1a70903312056m34ef9f31hfb82b86b37fc25c8@mail.gmail.com> Dear Rakesh , When Mr Ray equates himself with " secular,democratic and progressive sections of me society.".....that makes me laugh . And laughing is no easy thing to do in this age of recession. Mr Ray has to look in his own backyard and come clean on the Communist association with Madani ,who allegedly plotted to kill Advani. Is Madani not communal or does a Muslim communal gets conerted to a secular ,democratic and progressive man ? Come out of this 'sickularism'..... Pawan On Wed, Apr 1, 2009 at 7:17 AM, Rakesh Iyer wrote: > Dear Pawan > > What kind of context are you talking about? And if any context is fit > enough to justify killings, then can you tell me why do you think Babur is > wrong, for after all he was only trying to bring about the Mughal rule in > India, and who knows whether he actually believed in what he wrote or it was > only a gimmick to ensure that the Muslim clergy was satisfied? > > Even assuming he believed in it, he wanted to establish 'Islamic' rule. So > he destroyed and looted temples. Do you mean to say this context justifies > these killings? And hence the BJP's context of destroying masjids and mazars > is justified? > > As for the JNU, it has been by and large a leftist university. What is the > problem with that? After all, before talking of the 'low standards' of the > JNU, go and read history in the numerous 'Saraswati Shishu Mandir' schools > run by RSS across the country, and you would be ashamed. After reading that > history, Khushwant Singh had once commented that even the British would be > surprised that it has more communalizing content than that taught in history > under the British rule in India to practise 'divide and rule'. > > I have problems with the leftist violence unleashed in the name of Maoism > as well as with their economic policies somewhat. But does that mean we go > on ridiculing them? And if yes, it is better to first ridicule the BJP and > their Sangh Parivar, which will destroy the very foundations on which the > Indian state and Indian democracy were established. > > Regards > > Rakesh > > > From rakesh.rnbdj at gmail.com Wed Apr 1 11:24:40 2009 From: rakesh.rnbdj at gmail.com (Rakesh Iyer) Date: Wed, 1 Apr 2009 11:24:40 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Mallika Sarabhai's Public Meeting in JNU on 31st March In-Reply-To: <6b79f1a70903312056m34ef9f31hfb82b86b37fc25c8@mail.gmail.com> References: <98f331e00903311306s19575fb2la3f1c9c6cd4c9b21@mail.gmail.com> <6b79f1a70903311353l4517e60fk8b0a9394e24692d6@mail.gmail.com> <6b79f1a70903312056m34ef9f31hfb82b86b37fc25c8@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: Dear Pawan Just because somebody believes in Communism as an ideology does not mean that he/she supports any and every action of Communist party. I don't know about Madani, but if the Left is any problematic, so is the BJP for its activities which have destroyed India as well. And for 'sickularism', I sympathize with you. You as a Kashmiri Pandit, and some other Hindutva supporters have these seculars as the biggest enemy because if they won't have been there, your (collectively as a group) propaganda of Indian nationalism, encounter deaths, teaching Muslims a lesson and all crap could have already succeeded. Regards Rakesh From c.anupam at gmail.com Wed Apr 1 11:25:51 2009 From: c.anupam at gmail.com (anupam chakravartty) Date: Wed, 1 Apr 2009 11:25:51 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Mallika Sarabhai's Public Meeting in JNU on 31st March In-Reply-To: <6b79f1a70903312056m34ef9f31hfb82b86b37fc25c8@mail.gmail.com> References: <98f331e00903311306s19575fb2la3f1c9c6cd4c9b21@mail.gmail.com> <6b79f1a70903311353l4517e60fk8b0a9394e24692d6@mail.gmail.com> <6b79f1a70903312056m34ef9f31hfb82b86b37fc25c8@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <341380d00903312255t9228c43x2692214b3c70134@mail.gmail.com> Dear Pawan, I am amazed by your steadfastness in expressing views and support for a man, who is using a good number of people's faith for God to gain power. However don't you think that by citing all these things for a person who is dividing the society, making unworthy comments, blinding the youth -- who instead of marching all the way to Ayodhya with bricks and mortar -- could have made houses for the poor? Guess who were funding the Ram Temple? those who owned big hotels and shops in UK and USA, (you know it very well i think). Because on a holiday, they would used the land next to the Babri Masjid to develop what we fondly call religious tourism. so that advani can have a large share of these donations that could come to the Ram temple in ayodhya and make a handsome profit out it. I also do not understand how Madani comes into perspective, when we are exclusively discussing about the a set of people who have divided the society in the past two decades like nobody. even the theives and dacoits, who were hiding from the law, got a reason to support that force of hindutva, because anyway it legitimises all their actions. because so conveniently once you dip your head in Ganga, irrespective of who you are...and what have you done to the society, everything is pardonable. i am not trying to defile the purity of the river, but im just saying that because people like advani have used the ethical codes of the religious texts for their own convenience, my belief in Rama or Krishna is shaken. because if godliness represents peace, how karsevaks take up a trishul and order the demolition of a masjid and at the same time, when people from 70 villages in Kevadia in Narmada district are asked to moved to other places, no one from this lobby raised a voice against the authorities. i suspect the purity of the brick made for ram temple in ayodhya would have been lost if it were to be used to be used for making the houses of the poor, the homeless. on second thoughts, you must, dear pawan, pls tell advani that he should not send any of the bricks. because once people realise that these bricks were meant for fooling people to believe in something that they are anyways doing for over the years without making it into something political, trust me they would publicly lynch Advani. how, if god is omnipresent and all pervasive, how only making just this temple becomes so important for this party. it is a sad fact of this nation, which you will never be able to understand, because anyway your interests are political. people like advani have sold off my god, my religion, my faith, my dreams (with which I grew up) ... because of people such as advani, i have become a agnostic, almost a non-believer. because people like advani, i doubt what moral lessons would Gita can give to the young ones because a criminal such as Advani has already used it for his own good to justify his fight saying that he is waging a holy war. And unfortunately Pawan, you have used terms such as sickular borrowed from equally sick and perverted media channel and you are so proud to use it. it is distasteful to engage in any kind of dialogue with you or your kinds, that's what i have realised in the last couple of day when this reader's list was flooded with arguments which were forced laced with an advice: "think over it", "come out of your illusion". i have just one thing to say: the law and the constitution, which the greatest asset of the nation, will be nemesis for those take the citizens for granted. it was proven with Maya Kodnani's arrest. you cannot doubt it. with regards, anupam On 4/1/09, Pawan Durani wrote: > Dear Rakesh , > > When Mr Ray equates himself with " secular,democratic and progressive > sections of me society.".....that makes me laugh . > > And laughing is no easy thing to do in this age of recession. > > Mr Ray has to look in his own backyard and come clean on the Communist > association with Madani ,who allegedly plotted to kill Advani. > > Is Madani not communal or does a Muslim communal gets conerted to a secular > ,democratic and progressive man ? > > Come out of this 'sickularism'..... > > Pawan > > > On Wed, Apr 1, 2009 at 7:17 AM, Rakesh Iyer > wrote: > > > Dear Pawan > > > > What kind of context are you talking about? And if any context is fit > > enough to justify killings, then can you tell me why do you think Babur > is > > wrong, for after all he was only trying to bring about the Mughal rule in > > India, and who knows whether he actually believed in what he wrote or it > was > > only a gimmick to ensure that the Muslim clergy was satisfied? > > > > Even assuming he believed in it, he wanted to establish 'Islamic' rule. > So > > he destroyed and looted temples. Do you mean to say this context > justifies > > these killings? And hence the BJP's context of destroying masjids and > mazars > > is justified? > > > > As for the JNU, it has been by and large a leftist university. What is > the > > problem with that? After all, before talking of the 'low standards' of > the > > JNU, go and read history in the numerous 'Saraswati Shishu Mandir' > schools > > run by RSS across the country, and you would be ashamed. After reading > that > > history, Khushwant Singh had once commented that even the British would > be > > surprised that it has more communalizing content than that taught in > history > > under the British rule in India to practise 'divide and rule'. > > > > I have problems with the leftist violence unleashed in the name of Maoism > > as well as with their economic policies somewhat. But does that mean we > go > > on ridiculing them? And if yes, it is better to first ridicule the BJP > and > > their Sangh Parivar, which will destroy the very foundations on which the > > Indian state and Indian democracy were established. > > > > Regards > > > > Rakesh > > > > > > > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > subscribe in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> From pawan.durani at gmail.com Wed Apr 1 14:38:41 2009 From: pawan.durani at gmail.com (Pawan Durani) Date: Wed, 1 Apr 2009 14:38:41 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Mallika Sarabhai's Public Meeting in JNU on 31st March In-Reply-To: References: <98f331e00903311306s19575fb2la3f1c9c6cd4c9b21@mail.gmail.com> <6b79f1a70903311353l4517e60fk8b0a9394e24692d6@mail.gmail.com> <6b79f1a70903312056m34ef9f31hfb82b86b37fc25c8@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <6b79f1a70904010208g56966e8dqf4641d4202d57799@mail.gmail.com> Dear Mr Iyer, I am writing this mail as a Hindu , Indian and a Nationalist in equal mesures. Your second para is unwarranted . We are not discussing Kashmiri pandits . Unless the atrocities on Kashmiri Pandits embarrass 'sickulars' , like you. If you do not know Madani , I must be discussing with a novice . I believe you are a south indian and it is shocking you have no memory of Coimbatore blasts. So 'Sickular'...... Jai Ho Pawan On Wed, Apr 1, 2009 at 11:24 AM, Rakesh Iyer wrote: > Dear Pawan > > Just because somebody believes in Communism as an ideology does not mean > that he/she supports any and every action of Communist party. I don't know > about Madani, but if the Left is any problematic, so is the BJP for its > activities which have destroyed India as well. > > And for 'sickularism', I sympathize with you. You as a Kashmiri Pandit, and > some other Hindutva supporters have these seculars as the biggest enemy > because if they won't have been there, your (collectively as a group) > propaganda of Indian nationalism, encounter deaths, teaching Muslims a > lesson and all crap could have already succeeded. > > Regards > > Rakesh > > From pawan.durani at gmail.com Wed Apr 1 14:43:05 2009 From: pawan.durani at gmail.com (Pawan Durani) Date: Wed, 1 Apr 2009 14:43:05 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Mallika Sarabhai's Public Meeting in JNU on 31st March In-Reply-To: <341380d00903312255t9228c43x2692214b3c70134@mail.gmail.com> References: <98f331e00903311306s19575fb2la3f1c9c6cd4c9b21@mail.gmail.com> <6b79f1a70903311353l4517e60fk8b0a9394e24692d6@mail.gmail.com> <6b79f1a70903312056m34ef9f31hfb82b86b37fc25c8@mail.gmail.com> <341380d00903312255t9228c43x2692214b3c70134@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <6b79f1a70904010213q2c75843ds622452041a92f5a6@mail.gmail.com> Dear Mr Anupam , When 'Sickularism' goes extreme against a particular group or a community , you should be prepeared to listen as well. What are your views about MAdani and also are communist not opportunist in having a pact with a Hindu hater like Madani ? Pawan On Wed, Apr 1, 2009 at 11:25 AM, anupam chakravartty wrote: > Dear Pawan, > > I am amazed by your steadfastness in expressing views and support for a > man, > who is using a good number of people's faith for God to gain power. However > don't you think that by citing all these things for a person who is > dividing > the society, making unworthy comments, blinding the youth -- who instead of > marching all the way to Ayodhya with bricks and mortar -- could have made > houses for the poor? Guess who were funding the Ram Temple? those who owned > big hotels and shops in UK and USA, (you know it very well i think). > Because > on a holiday, they would used the land next to the Babri Masjid to develop > what we fondly call religious tourism. so that advani can have a large > share > of these donations that could come to the Ram temple in ayodhya and make a > handsome profit out it. > > I also do not understand how Madani comes into perspective, when we are > exclusively discussing about the a set of people who have divided the > society in the past two decades like nobody. even the theives and dacoits, > who were hiding from the law, got a reason to support that force of > hindutva, because anyway it legitimises all their actions. because so > conveniently once you dip your head in Ganga, irrespective of who you > are...and what have you done to the society, everything is pardonable. i am > not trying to defile the purity of the river, but im just saying that > because people like advani have used the ethical codes of the religious > texts for their own convenience, my belief in Rama or Krishna is shaken. > because if godliness represents peace, how karsevaks take up a trishul and > order the demolition of a masjid and at the same time, when people from 70 > villages in Kevadia in Narmada district are asked to moved to other places, > no one from this lobby raised a voice against the authorities. i suspect > the > purity of the brick made for ram temple in ayodhya would have been lost if > it were to be used to be used for making the houses of the poor, the > homeless. on second thoughts, you must, dear pawan, pls tell advani that he > should not send any of the bricks. because once people realise that these > bricks were meant for fooling people to believe in something that they are > anyways doing for over the years without making it into something > political, > trust me they would publicly lynch Advani. how, if god is omnipresent and > all pervasive, how only making just this temple becomes so important for > this party. it is a sad fact of this nation, which you will never be able > to > understand, because anyway your interests are political. people like advani > have sold off my god, my religion, my faith, my dreams (with which I grew > up) ... because of people such as advani, i have become a agnostic, almost > a > non-believer. because people like advani, i doubt what moral lessons would > Gita can give to the young ones because a criminal such as Advani has > already used it for his own good to justify his fight saying that he is > waging a holy war. > > And unfortunately Pawan, you have used terms such as sickular borrowed from > equally sick and perverted media channel and you are so proud to use it. it > is distasteful to engage in any kind of dialogue with you or your kinds, > that's what i have realised in the last couple of day when this reader's > list was flooded with arguments which were forced laced with an advice: > "think over it", "come out of your illusion". > > i have just one thing to say: the law and the constitution, which the > greatest asset of the nation, will be nemesis for those take the citizens > for granted. it was proven with Maya Kodnani's arrest. you cannot doubt it. > > with regards, > anupam > > On 4/1/09, Pawan Durani wrote: > > > Dear Rakesh , > > > > When Mr Ray equates himself with " secular,democratic and progressive > > sections of me society.".....that makes me laugh . > > > > And laughing is no easy thing to do in this age of recession. > > > > Mr Ray has to look in his own backyard and come clean on the Communist > > association with Madani ,who allegedly plotted to kill Advani. > > > > Is Madani not communal or does a Muslim communal gets conerted to a > secular > > ,democratic and progressive man ? > > > > Come out of this 'sickularism'..... > > > > Pawan > > > > > > On Wed, Apr 1, 2009 at 7:17 AM, Rakesh Iyer > > wrote: > > > > > Dear Pawan > > > > > > What kind of context are you talking about? And if any context is fit > > > enough to justify killings, then can you tell me why do you think Babur > > is > > > wrong, for after all he was only trying to bring about the Mughal rule > in > > > India, and who knows whether he actually believed in what he wrote or > it > > was > > > only a gimmick to ensure that the Muslim clergy was satisfied? > > > > > > Even assuming he believed in it, he wanted to establish 'Islamic' rule. > > So > > > he destroyed and looted temples. Do you mean to say this context > > justifies > > > these killings? And hence the BJP's context of destroying masjids and > > mazars > > > is justified? > > > > > > As for the JNU, it has been by and large a leftist university. What is > > the > > > problem with that? After all, before talking of the 'low standards' of > > the > > > JNU, go and read history in the numerous 'Saraswati Shishu Mandir' > > schools > > > run by RSS across the country, and you would be ashamed. After reading > > that > > > history, Khushwant Singh had once commented that even the British would > > be > > > surprised that it has more communalizing content than that taught in > > history > > > under the British rule in India to practise 'divide and rule'. > > > > > > I have problems with the leftist violence unleashed in the name of > Maoism > > > as well as with their economic policies somewhat. But does that mean we > > go > > > on ridiculing them? And if yes, it is better to first ridicule the BJP > > and > > > their Sangh Parivar, which will destroy the very foundations on which > the > > > Indian state and Indian democracy were established. > > > > > > Regards > > > > > > Rakesh > > > > > > > > > > > _________________________________________ > > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > > Critiques & Collaborations > > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > > subscribe in the subject header. > > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > subscribe in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> From rakesh.rnbdj at gmail.com Wed Apr 1 15:33:29 2009 From: rakesh.rnbdj at gmail.com (Rakesh Iyer) Date: Wed, 1 Apr 2009 15:33:29 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Mallika Sarabhai's Public Meeting in JNU on 31st March In-Reply-To: <341380d00903312255t9228c43x2692214b3c70134@mail.gmail.com> References: <98f331e00903311306s19575fb2la3f1c9c6cd4c9b21@mail.gmail.com> <6b79f1a70903311353l4517e60fk8b0a9394e24692d6@mail.gmail.com> <6b79f1a70903312056m34ef9f31hfb82b86b37fc25c8@mail.gmail.com> <341380d00903312255t9228c43x2692214b3c70134@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: Dear all What should we do with the BJP really? It's absolutely disgusting to say that a party and its larger parivar believes that rapes are the revenge for Godhra. It's even shameful to believe that killing old men who could do no harm, is the way to gain votes as well. And all kinds of arguments are given to justify these killings and rapes, like Muslim invaders coming to India and all. Will the Sangh parivar understand their ideology is wrong only when they get a dose of their own with their own men getting killed and women getting raped? Regards Rakesh From pawan.durani at gmail.com Wed Apr 1 15:43:00 2009 From: pawan.durani at gmail.com (Pawan Durani) Date: Wed, 1 Apr 2009 15:43:00 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Mallika Sarabhai's Public Meeting in JNU on 31st March In-Reply-To: References: <98f331e00903311306s19575fb2la3f1c9c6cd4c9b21@mail.gmail.com> <6b79f1a70903311353l4517e60fk8b0a9394e24692d6@mail.gmail.com> <6b79f1a70903312056m34ef9f31hfb82b86b37fc25c8@mail.gmail.com> <341380d00903312255t9228c43x2692214b3c70134@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <6b79f1a70904010313n31fb8b91s4867fdd731f655b1@mail.gmail.com> We should do exactly what we all have done with Congress [ 1984 ] , Communist [ Nandigram ] , DMK [ anti-Brahmin ] , BSP [ Tilak Tarazu aur talwar ] , RJD [ Mandal exploitation ] etc etc...... Jai Ho...... Pawan On Wed, Apr 1, 2009 at 3:33 PM, Rakesh Iyer wrote: > Dear all > > What should we do with the BJP really? It's absolutely disgusting to say > that a party and its larger parivar believes that rapes are the revenge for > Godhra. It's even shameful to believe that killing old men who could do no > harm, is the way to gain votes as well. And all kinds of arguments are > given > to justify these killings and rapes, like Muslim invaders coming to India > and all. > > Will the Sangh parivar understand their ideology is wrong only when they > get > a dose of their own with their own men getting killed and women getting > raped? > > Regards > > Rakesh > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > subscribe in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> > From rakesh.rnbdj at gmail.com Wed Apr 1 15:47:12 2009 From: rakesh.rnbdj at gmail.com (Rakesh Iyer) Date: Wed, 1 Apr 2009 15:47:12 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Mallika Sarabhai's Public Meeting in JNU on 31st March In-Reply-To: <6b79f1a70904010313n31fb8b91s4867fdd731f655b1@mail.gmail.com> References: <98f331e00903311306s19575fb2la3f1c9c6cd4c9b21@mail.gmail.com> <6b79f1a70903311353l4517e60fk8b0a9394e24692d6@mail.gmail.com> <6b79f1a70903312056m34ef9f31hfb82b86b37fc25c8@mail.gmail.com> <341380d00903312255t9228c43x2692214b3c70134@mail.gmail.com> <6b79f1a70904010313n31fb8b91s4867fdd731f655b1@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: Dear Pawan Does that mean that we should not vote for them? The Congress got voted after the 84 incidents, the Communists lost the panchayat elections after Nandigram; BSP had been voted to power in 2007; DMK is in govt in Tamil Nadu, and RJD is not on a completely weak wicket as it goes into elections allying with Paswan. What do you exactly mean by your mail then? I would be glad to know the answer. Regards Rakesh From c.anupam at gmail.com Wed Apr 1 17:46:00 2009 From: c.anupam at gmail.com (anupam chakravartty) Date: Wed, 1 Apr 2009 17:46:00 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Mallika Sarabhai's Public Meeting in JNU on 31st March In-Reply-To: References: <98f331e00903311306s19575fb2la3f1c9c6cd4c9b21@mail.gmail.com> <6b79f1a70903311353l4517e60fk8b0a9394e24692d6@mail.gmail.com> <6b79f1a70903312056m34ef9f31hfb82b86b37fc25c8@mail.gmail.com> <341380d00903312255t9228c43x2692214b3c70134@mail.gmail.com> <6b79f1a70904010313n31fb8b91s4867fdd731f655b1@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <341380d00904010516n1a8d186evf5e4a720d5a4a590@mail.gmail.com> Dear Pawan, If hating Hindu means hating Advani, then Im very much with Madani and his folks. Take my word for it and I would not comment any further after this mail, as you could not reply to anything apart from harping about Madani, who is a minnow against a large number of people who really suffered because of the communal violence perpetuted by Advani and his folk. Being a nationalist will never solve your problems if you keep shouting about religion and community and being a hindu. i dont think you get discounts in kiriyana shop for being a hindu. or do the right-wingers and fascist pay you a lot of money to post in the reader's list? do you get paid like how varun gandhi got paid to make these statements? the secular outlook of our constitution is never against any community. it is by virtue of being an hindu, i have this liberty to comment or post on this thread. if someone from other community would have raised a voice, they would be called pakistani or representing pope or khalistani militants or LTTE or naxal by lot of people who have been posting utter rubbish on this post. i always wanted to tell this to you especially to Pawan. it is true that kashmiri pandits were dislodged from the land they loved very much. it is also true that political forces hijacked the issue, which did not happen in case of the narmada displacement when it was completely the villagers against the state meaning a genuine representation of the people who were directly affected by the dam (which is why the dam came up and the people from 70 villages could be displaced so easily). in case of the Kashmiri Pandits it was very easy for BJP and other right wing forces to endorse the Pandits' sentiments and have taken advantage of it in the most political way to spew venom on the secularist or as you have been indoctrinated to say, "sickular". now the right wing forces are trying something similar in Assam now by promoting the cause of the regional party (which was a part of the ULFA few years back). so BJP is not representing the Hindu cause per se, but actually by promoting a civil war in the country ( that's why they find an ally in shiv sena in maharasthra which is partisan in its outlook). unfortunately, in a bid to find a political ally in the BJP, the quasi-regional parties would soon realise that they would be brought under a larger umbrella called the hindu right wing, if these forces are not stopped here. soon you will also realise that the local deity you have been praying to has been replaced by a muscular statue of Rama holding a large rocket launcher and i guess you will be proud of that. with regards anupam On 4/1/09, Rakesh Iyer wrote: > > Dear Pawan > > Does that mean that we should not vote for them? The Congress got voted > after the 84 incidents, the Communists lost the panchayat elections after > Nandigram; BSP had been voted to power in 2007; DMK is in govt in Tamil > Nadu, and RJD is not on a completely weak wicket as it goes into elections > allying with Paswan. > > What do you exactly mean by your mail then? I would be glad to know the > answer. > > Regards > > Rakesh > From knoll at transartinstitute.org Wed Apr 1 02:34:54 2009 From: knoll at transartinstitute.org (Dr. Klaus Knoll) Date: Tue, 31 Mar 2009 11:04:54 -1000 Subject: [Reader-list] Ten Scholarships for 2009 in International New Media MFA Program In-Reply-To: <8B870F0C-8B47-429A-B121-234CE38B76CA@transartinstitute.org> References: <8B870F0C-8B47-429A-B121-234CE38B76CA@transartinstitute.org> Message-ID: for immediate release *** SCHOLARSHIPS Transart Institute announced today that six scholarships of USD 12,000 each are available to students from Eastern Europe and developing countries and four scholarships of 3,000 USD each are available to students from anywhere to participate in the international MFA in New Media program. An application form is available online at: http://www.transartinstitute.org/Newpages/ApplicationForm.html Scholarships are given on the basis of artistic merit and financial need to artists of all media and genres. Scholarship applications are accepted online. PROGRAM OVERVIEW Transart Institute is a student-centered, self-directed MFA program, uniquely located in Europe offering an accredited two year low- residency course for working artists, teachers and all professionals in related fields who are seeking advancement in visual arts and new media. The innovative program consists of three intensive summer residencies with lectures, workshops, critiques, seminars, performances and exhibitions in Europe, two shorter, optional winter residencies in New York and four semesters between residencies in which students create their own course of study realizing individual art and research projects with the support of faculty and self-chosen artist mentors wherever they work and live. The Transart MFA program is geared towards development of a sustainable artistic praxis rather than training in certain media or genres, challenging students to think conceptually and work creatively in new ways. Current students work with animation, curating, digital media, film, gaming, graphic design, installation, painting, performance, photography, robotics, sculpture, sound, text, video, virtual reality. A detailed program for the 2009 summer residency is at: http://www.transartinstitute.org/Newpages/Residencies_Summer09.html FACULTY AND STUDENTS Transart faculty comes from a wide range of academic and artistic backgrounds as well as geographic locations. A majority of Transart students are emerging and mid-career artists and teachers at tertiary institutions. Transart Institute's residencies are a true meeting place for cultural exchange. Faculty bios can be found at: http://www.transartinstitute.org/Newpages/Faculty09.html while student profiles and web sites are at: http://www.transartinstitute.org/Newpages/students.html DEADLINES The deadline for scholarship applications is May 1, 2009, the final application deadline to the program for 2009 without scholarships is June 1st. Application forms are online at: http://www.transartinstitute.org/Newpages/ApplicationForm.html for the MFA program and at: http://friendsoftransartinstitute.org/Pages/MFA-Application.html for scholarships. For further information on the program please contact: admin at transartinstitute.org For further information on scholarships please write to: info at friendsoftransartinstitute.org Transart Institute International MFA Program www.transartinstitute.org Phone USA: (347) 410 9905 Fax USA: (508) 682 2853 info at transartinstitute.org *** Klaus Knoll, Dr. phil. Director, Transart Institute www.transartinstitute.org USA: +1 (347) 410 9905 | Fax: (508) 682 2853 Summer residency | July 26 - August 15, 2009 | Kunstfabrik | Am Flutgraben 3, Berlin | www.kunstfabrik.org Winter residency | March 11 -13, 2010 | Sideshow Gallery | 319 Bedford Ave. | Brooklyn, NY | www.sideshowgallery.com Accrediting institution | Donau University Krems | Dr. Karl-Dorrek- Str. 30 | 3500 Krems, Austria | +43 (0) 2732 893 2501 Mail | Transart Institute | 228 Park Ave S. #34726 | New York, NY 10003 From iram at sarai.net Wed Apr 1 19:51:14 2009 From: iram at sarai.net (Iram Ghufran) Date: Wed, 01 Apr 2009 19:51:14 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Fwd: SKYSCRAPER CINEMA In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <49D3785A.8070904@sarai.net> > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > > Subject: > Sarai Reader List / SKYSCRAPER CINEMA > From: > Anne M Klingbeil > Date: > Fri, 27 Mar 2009 12:56:44 -0500 > > > > Dear ListServ Administrator: > Please post this to Sarai Reader List. Also, please let me know if > you'd like to review the book for your listserv. Thanks! > > Best wishes, > Anne Klingbeil > Advertising and Promotions Coordinator > University of Minnesota Press > 111 Third Avenue South, Suite 290 > Minneapolis, MN 55401-2520 > follow us on Twitter! http://www.twitter.com/UMinnPress > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > * > * > *From the silent era until the advent of the Cinemascope-the > skyscraper as movie star.* > > SKYSCRAPER CINEMA: Architecture and Gender in American Film > Merrill Schleier > University of Minnesota Press | 392 pages | 2009 > ISBN 978-0-8166-4281-6 | hardcover | $85.50 > ISBN 978-0-8166-4282-3 | paperback | $28.50 > > > Whether tall office buildings, high-rise apartments, or lofty hotels, > skyscrapers have been stars in American cinema since the silent era. > Merrill Schleier offers close readings of films including/ Safety > Last, Skyscraper Souls, Wife vs. Secretary, Baby Face, The > Fountainhead,/ and/ Desk Set/ and explains the impact of actual > skyscrapers on America's ideologies about work, leisure, romance, > sexual identity, and politics as seen in Hollywood movies. > > "Merrill Schleier's original and fascinating study of movies where > office towers and high-rise apartments play carefully scripted roles, > provides precisely observed, erudite, and surprising new insights into > the cultural and social history of the first half of the 20th > Century." -Dietrich Neumann, author of/ Architecture of the Night/ > > Merrill Schleier is professor of art, architectural history, and film > studies at the University of the Pacific. She is author of The/ > Skyscraper in American Art./ > > For more information, including the table of contents, visit the > book's webpage: > http://www.upress.umn.edu/Books/S/schleier_skyscraper.html > > Sign up to receive news on the latest releases from University of > Minnesota Press: > _http://www.upress.umn.edu/eform.html_ > > Follow University of Minnesota Press updates on Twitter: > http://www.twitter.com/UMinnPress From pawan.durani at gmail.com Thu Apr 2 10:09:12 2009 From: pawan.durani at gmail.com (Pawan Durani) Date: Thu, 2 Apr 2009 10:09:12 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Mallika Sarabhai's Public Meeting in JNU on 31st March In-Reply-To: <341380d00904010516n1a8d186evf5e4a720d5a4a590@mail.gmail.com> References: <98f331e00903311306s19575fb2la3f1c9c6cd4c9b21@mail.gmail.com> <6b79f1a70903311353l4517e60fk8b0a9394e24692d6@mail.gmail.com> <6b79f1a70903312056m34ef9f31hfb82b86b37fc25c8@mail.gmail.com> <341380d00903312255t9228c43x2692214b3c70134@mail.gmail.com> <6b79f1a70904010313n31fb8b91s4867fdd731f655b1@mail.gmail.com> <341380d00904010516n1a8d186evf5e4a720d5a4a590@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <6b79f1a70904012139y33d5fc13r2c7081433940172c@mail.gmail.com> Dear Anupam , Being a nationalist , we do not look for discounts in ration shops . It is the Commies and 'sickular' who go begging for that. I am surprised that you shy away from Madani issue and consider him a minnow . There are Madanis just everywhere in India now. If there is a bigger threat to India , it is the communist ideology . The same commu nist who oppsed Quit India movement and supported the Chinese in Indio China war. Pawan On Wed, Apr 1, 2009 at 5:46 PM, anupam chakravartty wrote: > Dear Pawan, > > If hating Hindu means hating Advani, then Im very much with Madani and his > folks. Take my word for it and I would not comment any further after this > mail, as you could not reply to anything apart from harping about Madani, > who is a minnow against a large number of people who really suffered > because > of the communal violence perpetuted by Advani and his folk. > > Being a nationalist will never solve your problems if you keep shouting > about religion and community and being a hindu. i dont think you get > discounts in kiriyana shop for being a hindu. or do the right-wingers and > fascist pay you a lot of money to post in the reader's list? do you get > paid > like how varun gandhi got paid to make these statements? > > the secular outlook of our constitution is never against any community. it > is by virtue of being an hindu, i have this liberty to comment or post on > this thread. if someone from other community would have raised a voice, > they > would be called pakistani or representing pope or khalistani militants or > LTTE or naxal by lot of people who have been posting utter rubbish on this > post. > > i always wanted to tell this to you especially to Pawan. it is true that > kashmiri pandits were dislodged from the land they loved very much. it is > also true that political forces hijacked the issue, which did not happen in > case of the narmada displacement when it was completely the villagers > against the state meaning a genuine representation of the people who were > directly affected by the dam (which is why the dam came up and the people > from 70 villages could be displaced so easily). in case of the Kashmiri > Pandits it was very easy for BJP and other right wing forces to endorse the > Pandits' sentiments and have taken advantage of it in the most political > way > to spew venom on the secularist or as you have been indoctrinated to say, > "sickular". now the right wing forces are trying something similar in Assam > now by promoting the cause of the regional party (which was a part of the > ULFA few years back). so BJP is not representing the Hindu cause per se, > but > actually by promoting a civil war in the country ( that's why they find an > ally in shiv sena in maharasthra which is partisan in its outlook). > > unfortunately, in a bid to find a political ally in the BJP, the > quasi-regional parties would soon realise that they would be brought under > a > larger umbrella called the hindu right wing, if these forces are not > stopped > here. soon you will also realise that the local deity you have been praying > to has been replaced by a muscular statue of Rama holding a large rocket > launcher and i guess you will be proud of that. > > with regards > anupam > > > On 4/1/09, Rakesh Iyer wrote: > > > > Dear Pawan > > > > Does that mean that we should not vote for them? The Congress got voted > > after the 84 incidents, the Communists lost the panchayat elections after > > Nandigram; BSP had been voted to power in 2007; DMK is in govt in Tamil > > Nadu, and RJD is not on a completely weak wicket as it goes into > elections > > allying with Paswan. > > > > What do you exactly mean by your mail then? I would be glad to know the > > answer. > > > > Regards > > > > Rakesh > > > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > subscribe in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> > From pawan.durani at gmail.com Thu Apr 2 10:11:58 2009 From: pawan.durani at gmail.com (Pawan Durani) Date: Thu, 2 Apr 2009 10:11:58 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Mallika Sarabhai's Public Meeting in JNU on 31st March In-Reply-To: References: <98f331e00903311306s19575fb2la3f1c9c6cd4c9b21@mail.gmail.com> <6b79f1a70903311353l4517e60fk8b0a9394e24692d6@mail.gmail.com> <6b79f1a70903312056m34ef9f31hfb82b86b37fc25c8@mail.gmail.com> <341380d00903312255t9228c43x2692214b3c70134@mail.gmail.com> <6b79f1a70904010313n31fb8b91s4867fdd731f655b1@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <6b79f1a70904012141t62555f9h73bc28f6b9c9ccc4@mail.gmail.com> Mr Iyer, In politics every party has a vote bank and everyone tries to capitalise it . The BJP plays a Hindutva card without building a Ram temple , the communists get associated with anti Indian forces , the 'sickular' try to get minorty votes etc etc ..... Let us enjoy the Indian politics.......eveyone plays it dirty ......dont single out one.... Pawan On Wed, Apr 1, 2009 at 3:47 PM, Rakesh Iyer wrote: > Dear Pawan > > Does that mean that we should not vote for them? The Congress got voted > after the 84 incidents, the Communists lost the panchayat elections after > Nandigram; BSP had been voted to power in 2007; DMK is in govt in Tamil > Nadu, and RJD is not on a completely weak wicket as it goes into elections > allying with Paswan. > > What do you exactly mean by your mail then? I would be glad to know the > answer. > > Regards > > Rakesh > From rakesh.rnbdj at gmail.com Thu Apr 2 11:10:54 2009 From: rakesh.rnbdj at gmail.com (Rakesh Iyer) Date: Thu, 2 Apr 2009 11:10:54 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Mallika Sarabhai's Public Meeting in JNU on 31st March In-Reply-To: <6b79f1a70904012141t62555f9h73bc28f6b9c9ccc4@mail.gmail.com> References: <98f331e00903311306s19575fb2la3f1c9c6cd4c9b21@mail.gmail.com> <6b79f1a70903311353l4517e60fk8b0a9394e24692d6@mail.gmail.com> <6b79f1a70903312056m34ef9f31hfb82b86b37fc25c8@mail.gmail.com> <341380d00903312255t9228c43x2692214b3c70134@mail.gmail.com> <6b79f1a70904010313n31fb8b91s4867fdd731f655b1@mail.gmail.com> <6b79f1a70904012141t62555f9h73bc28f6b9c9ccc4@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: Mr Durrani You are right in your point, but it seems you are enjoying this bit of politics. While each party has a vote bank, that vote bank is different for different people. The communists link themselves with the labour class (which in your opinion may be anti-Indian forces), and so are the seculars linked with minorities. Hence, just pointing fingers at Mallika Sarabhai is not right. As far as enjoyment is concerned, I don't know how can one derive enjoyment from something which is linked to the lives of 1 billion + citizens of this nation, where so many farmers commit suicide, where there is huge corruption and where lives are being lost due to the negligence of the state. Regards Rakesh From pawan.durani at gmail.com Thu Apr 2 11:35:09 2009 From: pawan.durani at gmail.com (Pawan Durani) Date: Thu, 2 Apr 2009 11:35:09 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Mallika Sarabhai's Public Meeting in JNU on 31st March In-Reply-To: References: <98f331e00903311306s19575fb2la3f1c9c6cd4c9b21@mail.gmail.com> <6b79f1a70903311353l4517e60fk8b0a9394e24692d6@mail.gmail.com> <6b79f1a70903312056m34ef9f31hfb82b86b37fc25c8@mail.gmail.com> <341380d00903312255t9228c43x2692214b3c70134@mail.gmail.com> <6b79f1a70904010313n31fb8b91s4867fdd731f655b1@mail.gmail.com> <6b79f1a70904012141t62555f9h73bc28f6b9c9ccc4@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <6b79f1a70904012305p42d401a0x8c871b761fccd698@mail.gmail.com> Dear Mr Iyer, Please prove or present a single line where I have written against Ms Sarabhai. I do not know her and all i know about her is that she is a good dancer and daughter of a scientist. Do you really believe that Communist are pro-labor ? And why do you have the 'sickulars' obsessively pro minority ? जय हो ......भय हो Pawan Durani What made congress invite the person who promised to reward someone who kills Bush ? Is that not appeasement. On Thu, Apr 2, 2009 at 11:10 AM, Rakesh Iyer wrote: > Mr Durrani > > You are right in your point, but it seems you are enjoying this bit of > politics. While each party has a vote bank, that vote bank is different for > different people. The communists link themselves with the labour class > (which in your opinion may be anti-Indian forces), and so are the seculars > linked with minorities. Hence, just pointing fingers at Mallika Sarabhai is > not right. > > As far as enjoyment is concerned, I don't know how can one derive enjoyment > from something which is linked to the lives of 1 billion + citizens of this > nation, where so many farmers commit suicide, where there is huge corruption > and where lives are being lost due to the negligence of the state. > > Regards > > Rakesh > From aliens at dataone.in Thu Apr 2 11:35:11 2009 From: aliens at dataone.in (bipin) Date: Thu, 02 Apr 2009 11:35:11 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] secularism Message-ID: <004301c9b358$fc0ca1b0$0201a8c0@limo> Dear All, before further discussions/reply I invite everyone to give definition of SECULARISM in your point of view. thanks BIPIN From ysaeed7 at yahoo.com Thu Apr 2 12:20:19 2009 From: ysaeed7 at yahoo.com (Yousuf) Date: Wed, 1 Apr 2009 23:50:19 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Reader-list] secularism In-Reply-To: <004301c9b358$fc0ca1b0$0201a8c0@limo> Message-ID: <879691.2052.qm@web51409.mail.re2.yahoo.com> Dear Bipin To me personally, Secularism is not a denial or absence of religious faith. Its more like tolerance and respect of many points of views. Its certainly not a sickness. Yousuf --- On Thu, 4/2/09, bipin wrote: > From: bipin > Subject: [Reader-list] secularism > To: "sarai-list" > Date: Thursday, April 2, 2009, 11:35 AM > Dear All, > > before further discussions/reply I invite everyone to give > definition of SECULARISM in your point of view. > > thanks > BIPIN > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to > reader-list-request at sarai.net with subscribe in the subject > header. > To unsubscribe: > https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: > <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> From 2tahamehmood at googlemail.com Thu Apr 2 12:42:45 2009 From: 2tahamehmood at googlemail.com (Taha Mehmood) Date: Thu, 2 Apr 2009 08:12:45 +0100 Subject: [Reader-list] A second tulip mania Message-ID: <65be9bf40904020012i4ef65f19gc1fc987dbc7dbb63@mail.gmail.com> Dear All Seems like the recession is going to have an adverse effect on art market too. The writer of the article below makes an argument by comparing the rise of 'contemporary art' in recent years to mania which surrounded the sale of tupil bulbs in 17 century. So, after the futures and derivative bubble, the housing sub-prime bubble, it appears that the time has come now for the contemporary art bubble to burst. Regards Taha http://www.prospect-magazine.co.uk/article_details.php?id=10474 The prices of contemporary art works have risen to astonishing levels in recent years. Insiders say it’s because we have been living through a golden age of art. Nonsense, argue Ben Lewis and Jonathan Ford, it is a classic investment bubble Ben Lewis Jonathan Ford The bubble in contemporary art is about to pop. It has exhibited all the classic features of the South Sea bubble of 1720 or the tulip madness of the 1630s. It has been the bubble of bubbles—balancing precariously on top of other now-burst bubbles in credit, housing and commodities—and inflating more dramatically than all of them. While British house prices took six years to double at the start of this century, contemporary art managed it in just one, 2006-07. (Over the same period, old masters went up by just 7.6 per cent and British 17th to 19th century watercolours actually lost value.) Contemporary art in the emerging economies did even better. The value of its sales in China increased by 983 per cent in one year (2005-06). In Russia they rose 2,365 per cent in five years (2000-05), while its stock market increased by "only" about 300 per cent. Even these numbers understate the incredible tulip-like increases in the value of the hottest artists. The Chinese painter Zhang Xiaogang saw his work appreciate 6,000 times, from $1,000 to $6m (1999-2008); work by the American artist Richard Prince went up 60 to 80 times (2003-2008). The German painter Anselm Reyle was unknown in 2003; you could have picked up one of his stripe paintings for €14,000. Now he has a studio with 60 assistants turning them out for about €200,000 each. Any figures for the whole contemporary art market are guesswork, though Christie's chief executive, Ed Dolman, recently estimated that it had grown in value from $4bn a year to somewhere between $20-30bn in the past eight years. But this bubble is now deflating. Sotheby's share price has lost three quarters of its value over the past year, sinking from its peak of $57 in October 2007 to $9 in early November—close to its 1980s low of $8. The latest round of contemporary art auctions in London has gone badly. In October, the Phillips de Pury sale made only £5m—a quarter of the minimum estimate; at Christie's almost half the lots didn't sell; and an air of denial hung over the Frieze art fair like a fog. Upmarket dealers Matthew Marks and Iwan Wirth claimed to have clinched many big deals, but the reality was surely different. A leading New York gallerist was said to have sold very little and a well-known German dealer not a single work. Some dealers have blamed the poor quality of the works in the London sales. "Just wait for New York in mid-November," one said, "and you'll see the art market is still doing well." But New York has been no better. This should have come as no real surprise. If you consider the market as a purely financial enterprise, rather than one in which aesthetic quality has any bearing, then the boom in contemporary art has the hallmarks of a classic investment bubble. *** In his book, Manias, Panics, and Crashes, Charles Kindleberger observed that manias typically start with a "displacement" that excites speculative interest. It may come from a new object of investment or from the increased profitability of existing investments. It is followed by positive feedback as rising prices encourage less experienced investors to enter the market. Then, as the mania gets a grip, speculation becomes more diffuse and spreads to other types of asset. Fresh assets are created at an ever faster rate to take advantage of the euphoria and investors try to increase their gains by borrowing to buy assets or using derivatives. Credit ultimately becomes overextended, swindling and fraud proliferate, and the mania ends in panic as investors seek to liquidate their positions. The art market has adhered spookily to Kindleberger's model. By 2004 it was clear that a boom in contemporary art was well underway ("The price of art," Ben Lewis, Prospect, October 2004.) At the Armory show, New York's trendsetting contemporary art fair, dealers sold $43m worth of art in four days, nearly twice as much as the previous year. There were huge price rises at auction, too. A 1996 sculpture of a stuffed horse hanging from a ceiling, Ballad of Trotsky, by the fashionable and witty Italian artist Maurizio Cattelan, sold for $2m at auction in May 2002. It had increased in value tenfold in two years. Gerhard Richter's paintings quadrupled in value between 2000 and 2004. Even then, buyers were paying $1m to $3m for a work by Hirst, Warhol, Basquiat or Koons. Those sums now seem quaint—last year a Koons went for $23m, a Hirst for $20m and a Basquiat for $15m. The moment of "displacement" was driven by the emergence of a global class of the new rich. These billionaires, who had probably never drawn more than stick figures with a biro, were drawn to artistic creation. They wanted to collect contemporary art, partly because they liked it, partly because it was a status symbol, partly because most of the good old master works were in museums, and partly because it seemed to be a solid investment. The way was led by people like Charles Saatchi and the Miami property magnates, the Rubells. Saatchi laid down a blueprint in the late 1990s that others have tried to copy—he bought the work of young artists, established a museum in which to display it or lent it to public museums, and used the media interest that such shows attracted (by virtue of the outlandish works involved and the association of celebrities) to sell on part of the collection at auction at greatly inflated prices. Some of the proceeds would then be reinvested in the work of other new discoveries. Saatchi's famous 1997 show, "Sensation," demonstrated that this "specullecting" was a great way to make a splash as an arbiter of taste. Others took an earthier view of the collectors' instinct. Amy Capellazzo, the co-head of Christie's contemporary art department, observed in 2007: "After you have a fourth home and a G5 jet, what else is there?" According to Forbes, the number of billionaires in the world has been growing by 20 per cent a year since 2000. There were 476 in 2003, now there are 1,125. As they began to collect contemporary art, prices started to rise. New fairs, such as Art Basel Miami Beach and Frieze in London, were a success. Newspapers ran stories that promoted the boom. Advertising from rich galleries and art businesses and the untouchable sanctity of "art" deterred criticism. The public flocked to art galleries. The Tate Modern had 5.2m visitors in 2007, making it the most popular museum of modern art in the world. This boom was different from the one in the 1980s. Then, it had depended on Japanese property speculators buying with credit secured against inflated real estate values. This time the buyers were more widely spread and paid with cash, not promissory notes. Art had become a new asset class—akin to shares or oil. In 2007, Tobias Meyer, Sotheby's head of contemporary art, effused: "The best art is the most expensive because the market is so smart." *** Contemporary art turned out to be an ideal vehicle for speculative euphoria. The market is almost entirely free from state interference. Governments have had little interest in regulating the trinkets and playthings of the super-rich. Art works are a uniquely portable and confidential form of wealth. Whereas all property purchases have to be publicly registered, buying art is a private activity. And unlike old masters, which are often linked by history to specific places, contemporary art knows no frontiers. By 2006, the bubble was well into Kindleberger's second phase: diffusion. Rising prices were sucking in new investors. In the first half of 2006, 454 works exceeded $1m at auction, up from 130 in the same period of 2003 as Asian billionaires joined European buyers. In Britain, there was the Banksy market, a kind of contemporary art lite, for people with thousands rather than millions to spend. Images that would once have never made it past a T-shirt, mug or wall, were now bought and sold as limited edition prints and stencils on canvas. In 2003, one of the 50 spoofy Kate Moss prints by Banksy in the style of Warhol's Marilyn could have been yours for £1,500. In February this year one sold for £96,000 at Bonhams. (Now the price is half that.) Established collectors dropped out or were nudged sideways towards lesser known artists by the activities of the new rich. The titans of the showrooms included hedge fund bosses such as Steve Cohen, whose SAC fund was responsible for about 3 per cent of daily trading on the New York stock exchange. Other big buyers were Asian billionaires, like Joseph Lau from Hong Kong, oil tycoons and the oligarchs with their huge stakes in metal extraction and banks. The Georgian Boris Ivanishvili spent $95m on Picasso's Dora Maar au Chat—a work of art that he still hasn't unpacked. When it was flown back to Tbilisi, the airport was closed down and the army turned out to ensure the work's transfer to a secure warehouse. These financial investors didn't simply shove their wealth into contemporary art, they imported the strategies of financial investment into art collecting. Alien phrases, such as "price discovery," were heard in galleries and auction houses. Investors became beady-eyed about tracking which artists leading museums considered important and followed the prices of their works on Artnet's database like stock market indices. Indeed, the new art market bore about as much resemblance to traditional collecting as the modern financial system of credit default swaps and mortgage-backed securities did to traditional banking. The correlation between value and rarity in art went out of the window. Paintings by old masters such as Vermeer and Rembrandt hold their value because there are a finite number in the world. This is both a guarantor of value and limits the extent of any speculative activity. But, as Kindleberger has shown, it is a condition of a speculative mania that new "assets" be manufactured to meet raging demand—so the recent bubble has focused on the works of living artists such as Hirst, Koons, Prince and Murakami. They, and other stars, have produced scores of very similar works in series, like the slashed canvases of the Italian conceptual artist Lucio Fontana, Warhol's screenprints or Hirst's spins and spots. More and more of such work has been churned out by cookie-cutter artists without regard to originality or aesthetic merit. Economist and historian of financial crashes, Edward Chancellor, observed recently: "Most contemporary art is inherently worthless. It is not like Titian and other old masters of which there are few and whose value will not fall away. It's like subprime CDOs." At the peak of the South Sea bubble in 1720, a series of stock promoters emerged touting the shares of "bubble companies" that aimed to take advantage of high share prices. We laugh now at the prospectuses of these tawdry ventures—not least the one proposing to carry out "an undertaking of great advantage, but nobody to know what it is." As the art bubble has neared its peak, the great art-entrepreneurs such as Hirst, Banksy, Prince or the Chinese artists, Xiaogang and Yue Minjun, seem increasingly like these 18th-century promoters. Not only have they pumped out identical works, but they have also sought to capture more of the value for themselves, bypassing the gallerists with whom they are obliged to share 50 per cent of sales and selling direct out of the studio or placing new works straight into auction. Five years ago it was unknown for a work of art that was only one or two years old to be sold at auction. Now this is common—the best example being the Hirst sale of over 200 new works at Sotheby's in September. *** The final phase of any bubble is characterised by overextended credit as investors use leverage to magnify their gains. It is also the peak of what JK Galbraith referred to as "the bezzle"—the amount of money siphoned from the system through outright corruption and fraud. The opacity of the art market makes it hard to know how exposed it is to the credit crunch. But the auction houses are weighed down by debt from guarantees—the prices that they have guaranteed to pay the sellers of works of art in their auctions (which they extend to persuade sellers to sell works through them). Auction house Phillips de Pury was rescued by a takeover by the Russian luxury goods company Mercury. In November, Sotheby's announced it had around $250m of debt in the form of guarantees to the end of the year. It had already lost $47m on work that hadn't sold and has since stopped giving further guarantees. Sotheby's has borrowed $250m to "ensure additional liquidity." Christie's has also taken out a loan and in October suspended offering any further credit terms to its customers, according to an auction house executive. The mania for collecting contemporary art has become ever more intense in the past 12 months—in the first half of this year, new auction records were set for almost 1,000 artists. But the suspicion is that dealers and collectors with interests in particular artists may have been "bidding up" prices at auction and acquiring works. If so, they may be holding large inventories of overvalued work, financed by increasingly expensive debt. At the Damien Hirst auction at Sotheby's, his London dealer, Jay Jopling, bid on an astonishing 44 per cent of the lots in the evening sale, and both he and Hirst's US dealer, Larry Gagosian, bid on two lots after long pauses in the bidding. One cannot know if Jopling was maintaining Hirst's prices at his own expense or bidding for clients. The lack of transparency often makes it hard to know who is doing what to whom. On 30th August last year, Hirst's business manager Frank Dunphy and Jopling declared publicly that they had sold his diamond-encrusted skull For the Love of God for "the full asking price of £50m"—the highest price ever paid for a work by a living artist. But just over a year later, Dunphy told Time magazine that he, Jopling and Hirst owned "a controlling stake" in the skull. A controlling stake is one that exceeds 50 per cent (and could be anything up to 100 per cent). In the stock market, a transaction of this kind would require disclosure to avoid the creation of a "false market." But as we have seen the art market is unregulated. As the credit crunch struck, it became evident that American and Europeans would be buying less art. But that, we were told, did not matter because a wave of new buyers from Russia and the middle east would take their place, their wealth buoyed by high commodity prices. Sotheby's press releases said that every year 20 per cent of their clients were new and, for the Hirst auction, 22 per cent of the buyers were new clients. New records were set by these art virgins—Roman Abramovich paid $86m for a Francis Bacon in July 2008 and the Qatari royal family, previously known for collecting Islamic art, bought the Rockefeller Rothko for $73m. The propaganda of the art entrepreneurs has also reached a final level of absurdity. We were told that the decline of paper assets would lead to "a flight of capital into art." The art market, Tobias Meyer of Sotheby's said in June, is a one-way street: "For the first time since 1914 we are in a non-cyclical market." Over the winter of 1636, the tulip mania reached its peak. One kind of bulb sold for 900 guilders (three times the price of a small town house), up from 95 a year before. The peak prices of Dutch tulips were achieved when the bulbs were snug in the ground, and were based on futures contracts—a form of leverage that allowed investors to place an enormous price on a bulb without actually laying down the cash. On 3rd February 1637, the tulip market crashed. There was no particular reason for the panic—except that spring was nearing and, on its arrival, the bulbs would be dug up, cash settlement sought for futures and the game would be up. We have surely reached the same point in the world of contemporary art. One of the emotions that has driven its boom is the narcissistic belief of the rich in the greatness of the age in which they are living. They thought they were buying masterpieces. But like the Dutch merchants and their tulips, the obsession of the new rich with contemporary art is likely to be remembered as the epitome of the vanity and folly of the age. The bulbs are still in the ground but the spades are poised. From rajenradhika at vsnl.net Thu Apr 2 12:40:30 2009 From: rajenradhika at vsnl.net (rajenradhika at vsnl.net) Date: Thu, 02 Apr 2009 12:10:30 +0500 Subject: [Reader-list] reader-list Digest, Vol 68, Issue 76 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Dear All, it is really amusing to me when I raise the topic on reality check of indian democracy, the so called intelligentia of the sari readers list is deadly silence and not even one response to the thoughts put in the post. ! If I were to post some thoughts about how the communism and its leaders are parasytes on labour class, living their life on the subscriptions paid by the poor working class, there would be enough responses justifying the leaders actions, if I were to talk about the rape of a young girl in Singur by goon cadres, murders and grievious hurt inflicted on poor citizens to deprive them of their right to property some more responses from "secular" intellect. But if I were to talk of rule of laws that is being subverted in democratic governance of the nation, the blame game starts of blaming the major community and the politics of vote banks of hindus, very amusing indeed. If lakhs of followers of one faith form a jammaath it is not communal, if lakhs of a caste say, yadavs form a party and then its leader loots the fodder funds, he is very secular, if he stops the peaceful Rath yathra, thus causing riots, it is the responsibilty of the leader Advani.? If I talk of judges who fudge their date of births and loot 600 crores in official residence thru their sons on non-existing assets, if the judges gulp down crores of PF money for their comforts, judiciary is still clean and honest.? If the Law minister clandestinely operates to send the court official to London to defreeze the account, we have a chief justice who has no powers to take suo moto note of this dirty operation of kickbacks being reverted to uncle Q.? The same law minister warns a convict and a friend of terrorist to contest from his party or otherwise... the highest court applies its mind.? A simple land dispute about a dilapidated structure on land belonging to maharaja awauts judgement of judiciary for decades, if the structire not even used for prayer becomes a masjid to evoke emotional respones, what sort of calibre is these judges have who can not dispose off the cases and adjudicate them at the earliest, so that the political parties do not use it as vote gathering tool in democratic elections.? The chief justice finds technical loop holes to save the officer of the election commission even when he loots crores of rupess in his wifes NGO, and becomes a mole for the political party, and the contribution of judiciary is immense in this type of actions where they do not seem to have guts to talk of corruption in Election commission. EPIC or voters id cards issue is biggest corruption scandal with use of IT and tendering process and the EC has not even covered 50 percent of voters in nation. Shame on such "autonomous" bodies who play games with common man to appease the political parties.This can be verified easily by the serpentine ques for epic cards even now, with tout charging 100 bucks for facilitation of epic cards in metro cities. Bogus cards are another menace. Regards, Rajendra Uppinangadi, rajen882uppinangadi at gmail.com ----- Original Message ----- From: reader-list-request at sarai.net Date: Monday, March 30, 2009 11:35 am Subject: reader-list Digest, Vol 68, Issue 76 To: reader-list at sarai.net > Send reader-list mailing list submissions to > reader-list at sarai.net > > To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit > https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to > reader-list-request at sarai.net > > You can reach the person managing the list at > reader-list-owner at sarai.net > > When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific > than "Re: Contents of reader-list digest..." > > > Today's Topics: > > 1. Re: reader-list Digest, Vol 68, Issue 62Freedom and right to > express at what cost to society.? (rajenradhika at vsnl.net) > 2. Are News Channels emerging as arbitrators of the I-card > discourse? (Taha Mehmood) > 3. "Free, Free Binayak Sen!" -- Report on U.S. Actions in > Solidarity with the Raipur Satyagraha (Anivar Aravind) > 4. Re: The decline of the 'encounter death' (bipin) > > > -------------------------------------------------------------------- > -- > > Message: 1 > Date: Sun, 29 Mar 2009 12:16:30 +0500 > From: rajenradhika at vsnl.net > Subject: Re: [Reader-list] reader-list Digest, Vol 68, Issue 62Freedom > and right to express at what cost to society.? > To: Rakesh Iyer > Cc: sarai-list > Message-ID: > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii > > > We the citizens of India gave ourselves the constitution of India > which gave us rights to property, rights to life, rights to > express individually and we live in the nation state as a social > group of citizens and the state when it declared itself as a > secular, it means in letter and spirit that the state does not > uphold any faith, faith is strictly in the individuals prerogative > to live life as per his personal belief, practice the faith he > believes in, but th conflict comes in to play when the individual > wants to impose his faith in his right to express on the the other > individuals in the society. > > Right to property is upheld by the constitution in its articles but > the governance by leaders elected by us, the citizens have > systematically denied this right to property, right from > Keshavanand Bharathi vs. Union of India case law judgement by > amending the constitution and inserting such laws into schedules in > the constitution which are beyond the perview of judicial system. > > Right to have faith as strictly personal domain is again violated > by the Shah bano case law judgement by amending the laws to suit > vote banks, faith is used as a tool to gather votes. > We see today and in the last sixty two years of governance all > the political parties either for a faith or against a faith, either > for a community or against a community, either for few business > houses or against a few more business houses. Is this the true > facet of democratic governance.? > > True democratic rule in letter and spirit is when the elected > who take oaths of office to govern, without fear or favour in just > governance to all the citizens. But our leaders violate the oath > taken the very day by imposing their whims and fancies on selective > governance to citizens. Irrespective of the political parties the > issues of good governance alays take the last priority, the > community which voted them to power gains its pound of flesh and > discrimination in governance starts immediately. > > As to the four pillars of democratic governance, let us examine > the role of each of these in good governance or lack of it. > Political leadership or legislative pillar as explained above is > partisan and never does it rule with just and fair rule of law > enshrined in constitution. Only this can explain the coterie > culture of leaders as seen in every political parties, Sonia with > her one faith folowers as her inner circle, Advani with core > idealogists as his advisers, less said it is better. > > Now our babus, with weak and corrupt leadrs to pamper, the babus > for a nexus to keep these leaders happy and in the meanwhile > feather their nests. Thus deprived citizens are frustrated lot, so > naxal movement and other form of demand for fair rule of law is > evident in the nation, but naxals when they take law in to their > own hands towards reform of the system, they are outlawed, > naturally. So are the religious fanatics as they take violence as a > method of correction of the system.Hence rama sena and such other > outfits are illegal as the method is illegal . > > The next is judiciary which in normal rule of laws is most > respected of all the pillars of democracy. But when the retired > chief justice of the highest court admits that there are 10 percent > corrupt in judiciary, and we see the case of a judge not being > impeached for regional considerations by "national" party, a chief > justice fudging his date of birth to be in seat for a few more > months, a chief justice shielding his sons in his official > residence to avail 600 crore loans in non-existent land assets, > judges in PF scams encashing employees' provident funds, judge > keeping the funds in his personal account being the receiver of the > court, are all indications of decay in judicial process. The chief > justice who can not act when his judicial officer goes to London to > release 21 crore to uncle Q with begging the crown prosecutors' > office, but instead gets the promotion, and scam money reaches the > culprit with the knowledge of the law minister and the beneficiary > pretends ignora > nce of the loot, what more certification is needed of the falling > standards of judicial system other than untold delays and > subversion of the system.? The lawyers playing with the process, > bribing the witness, duress to witness is also not uncommon. > > The last of the pillars, the media, has its own fair share of > corrupt men and women in journalism. The poll surveys, reportage of > the events have ,ade the citizens realise that all the news are not > news but only views of such blacksheep in journalism. As to rewards > and awards, what service these blacksheep of media anchors served > the society is big question mark as they seem to be more involved > in newly evolved moral games of life styles and reportage of > sensation rather that relevance to the society with trp as only > driving forces. > > Unless the society and citizens understand and inculcate what is > right and correct way of life irrespective of faith, ( as all > faiths are only way of life to live life ethically and morally > correct.) and what is wrong in societal life, the democratic rule > of laws and god governance will be a mirage. > > Regards, > > Rajendra Uppinangadi, > rajen882uppinangad at gmail.com. > > PS: Author is not member to the list if the moderator/ > administrator feels fit may invite the author to be its member of > the list, any way freedom of expression for author is not a right > of obsession to rule other thoughts but to exchange all thoughts > and take the best for the life. > ----- Original Message ----- > From: Rakesh Iyer > Date: Wednesday, March 25, 2009 3:43 pm > Subject: Re: [Reader-list] reader-list Digest, Vol 68,Issue > 62Freedom and right to express at what cost to society.? > To: bipin > Cc: rajenradhika at vsnl.net, sarai-list > > > Dear all > > > > I can understand the point that freedom of expression is more > > important than > > peace, for after all any peace without any freedom of expression > is > > only the > > lull before the storm waiting to happen. Plus of course, it > hampers > > one of > > the basic human rights of citizens. > > > > However, the other question which is confusing my mind, as > pointed > > out in > > the article, is regarding nation-states providing rights to > > citizens. I > > don't know much on this, so it would be good if we can discuss on > > whetherit's nation-states which act as the agencies to provide > > rights (and hence > > without them people can't ask for rights), or is it that rights > are > > inherentirrespective of whether nation-states exist or not. > > > > Regards > > > > Rakesh > > > > > ------------------------------ > > Message: 2 > Date: Sun, 29 Mar 2009 18:37:39 +0100 > From: Taha Mehmood <2tahamehmood at googlemail.com> > Subject: [Reader-list] Are News Channels emerging as arbitrators of > the I-card discourse? > To: reader-list > Message-ID: > <65be9bf40903291037o454b506v55465ecbba234004 at mail.gmail.com> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 > > Dear all > > CNN IBN's Kinnari Patel reports about a village called Nargol in > Gujaratwhere it is mandatory for residents to have an I-card. All > the villagers > have shared their fingerprints with the local police, she ends her > report by > suggesting that, 'Nargol's is probably one story Gujarat and the > rest of the > country should take lessons from.'. Interestingly in another > version of the > same story, CNN IBN's Urunuday Majumdar suggests that, this experiment > should be 'emulated' by the rest of india. > > Regards > > Taha > > Please follow the links below to check out the stories- > > http://ibnlive.in.com/videos/70576/crime-control-you-need-an-icard- > to-enter-this-village.html > > http://ibnlive.in.com/news/crime-control-you-need-an-icard-to-enter- > this-village/70576-3.html > > > ------------------------------ > > Message: 3 > Date: Mon, 30 Mar 2009 07:50:28 +0530 > From: Anivar Aravind > Subject: [Reader-list] "Free, Free Binayak Sen!" -- Report on U.S. > Actions in Solidarity with the Raipur Satyagraha > To: Greenyouth , Reader List > , "fourth-estate-critique at googlegroups.com" > > Message-ID: > <35f96d470903291920m9ee9220wf85f3eec8ddea4a9 at mail.gmail.com> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 > > ---------- Forwarded message -------- > [Thanks to all those who participated in Friday's solidarity action > with the > Raipur Satyagraha. Below is a report on the actions held in three > differentcities in the US. Please forward to other groups.] > http://www.binayaksen.net/2009/03/free-free-binayak-sen-report-on- > us-protests/ > ** > *"Free, Free Binayak Sen!" * > *50 international groups organize support in the USA for the Raipur > Satyagraha **in India* > *Simultaneous protests held in 3 US cities* > > * San > Francisco, CA, > New York, NY and Washington DC, 28 March, 2009:* Verve and vigor > marked the > simultaneous protests held at the Indian embassy and consulates in > Washington DC, New York City and San Francisco on March 27th, > demanding the > immediate release of Dr. Binayak Sen, an end to the repressive > ChhattisgarhSpecial People's Security Act (CSPSA) and disbanding of > the state-sponsored > militia, Salwa Judum. Activists from Association for India's > Development(AID), Friends of South Asia (FOSA), South Asia > Solidarity Initiative > (SASI), International League of People's Struggles, students and > facultyfrom local universities participated in these protests, > coinciding with the > *Raipur Satyagraha* *, > *theongoing mass civil disobedience action in the city of Raipur > where Dr. Sen > is incarcerated. Over 50 groups from the US, UK and Canada have > written to > the Chhattisgarh government and offered their support to the Raipur > Satyagraha, and nearly 600 individual faxes have also been sent to the > Chhattisgarh government from around the world. > > The22-month long, unjustifiable detention of Dr. Binayak > Senhas become a > rallying point for human rights and peace and justice groups in > India and internationally. A pediatrician by training who chose to > workwith the marginalized and malnourished people in remote > villages of > Chhattisgarh in central India, Dr. Binayak Sen has been recognized > for his > contributions to public health and human rights with the Paul Harrison > awardby > his alma mater, the Christian Medical College, Vellore, the R.R. > Keithan gold > medalfromthe Indian Academy of Social Sciences, and the Jonathan > Mann Award by the > GlobalHealth Council in Washington DC. As Vice-president of > People's Union for > Civil Liberties (PUCL), Dr Binayak Sen was > instrumental in bringing to light the excesses of the Chhattisgarh > government's security apparatus, notably the Salwa Judum, a state- > sponsoredmilitia which has wreaked havoc in the villages of south > Bastar district. > Activists and intellectuals, including Noam Chomsky, Arundhati Roy, > GeorgeGalloway, Mahashweta Devi, over 135 faculty members and 22 > nobel laureates > from around the world have joined in urging the Indian government > to free > Dr. Binayak Sen and stop the harassment of human rights activists. > > Anu Mandavilli, > with Friends > of South Asia (FOSA), reminded > theprotestors in San Francisco, that the one-year long trial of Dr. > Sen, which > included testimonies from over 50 government witnesses, has not > produced a > shred of evidence or a single witness who could corroborate the > Government'sclaim that Dr. Sen engaged in seditious activities. > "Yet, the courts have > denied Dr. Sen's bail application three times. It is interesting > to note > that men from Shri Ram Sene, who beat up women in Mangalore pubs in > front of > cameras, were released on bail within 6 hours. Whereas Dr. Sen, > with an > impeccable 25-year record of public service, and no evidence > against him, > has been in jail for 22 months now." > > Angana > Chatterji,associate professor, California Institute of Integral > Studies, cited the > harassment of other human rights defenders in Orissa and Kashmir, > statingthat Dr. Sen's case represents an alarming trend where the > Indian state is > using draconian laws to silence those who oppose state repression. > Indeed,Dr. Sen is only the most prominent among numerous human > rights defenders and > public intellectuals who languish in Indian jails because they > dared to > speak truth to power. > > > InNew York, activists gathered outside the Indian consulate to read Dr. Sen's > New Year Letter from jail, recite poems from around the world in > support of > Dr. Sen, and sing songs of collective action. Jinee Lokaneeta of > the South > Asia Solidarity Initiative (SASI), and on the faculty at Drew > University,drew attention to the fact that notwithstanding the > floundering case against > Dr. Sen, the government has recently produced an additional > supplementarychargesheet against him. "By repeatedly denying Dr. > Sen's bail application, > and purposefully prolonging a meaningless trial, the state is > ensuring that > Dr. Sen stays in prison a long time, even if charges against him > are never > proved." > > Murli Natrajan, also of SASI and a faculty member at William Paterson > University, added, "The laws used by the state to arrest Dr. Sen > are truly > draconian. These are the latest in the tradition of other harsh > laws, such > as MISA, TADA and POTA, each one of which had to be abandoned after > beingdeclared unconstitutional by the highest judicial authorities, > and after > gross misuse by the state's security apparatus became apparent." > > Somu Kumar, > with Association > for India's Development (AID), and one > of the > organizers of the protest at the Indian embassy in Washington DC, > highlighted that these protests are not limited to demanding the human > rights of just one inidividual, Dr. Binayak Sen, but are in > opposition to a > system which criminalizes those who point out its shortcomings. > "At this > point, Dr. Sen is a symbol of many other ongoing struggles in > India--especially those of the *adivasis*, the indigenous > inhabitants of the > mineral rich areas, who are resisting displacement by large mining > companies, and whose rights Dr. Sen was championing. These > protests are > also to demand consideration for the human rights of the *adivasis *of > Chhattisgarh, more than 100,000 of who are officially internally > displacedpeople due to the actions of the state-sponsored Salwa > Judum." > > A letter > signed by > more than 50 international peace and justice > groups Chapters/Maryland/campaign/Binayak_Sen_Org_Endorsement.pdf>,and a > list of individuals who have faxed > letters support-of-the-raipur-satyagraha-for-release-of-dr-binayak-sen/>to > the Chhattisgarh and central governments, were submitted to the Indian > consular staff at each city who have guaranteed their delivery to > the desks > of the Chief Minister of Chhattisgarh, the President and Prime > Minister of > India, and the Chairperson of the National Human Rights Commission. > Someactivists voiced their disappointment that the government of > India had yet > to acknowledge any of their previous submissions made over the > course of the > last year. "In spite of sending several hundred faxes, multiple > letters,and individual emails to various officials, we have yet to > hear back from a > single government official that our letters have been received and > read,leave alone considered," said Srividhya Venkataraman, with AID- > Berkeley.She added, "The Indian government has made it a priority > to reach out to > NRIs. But if we, with multiple channels of communication available > to us, > have such difficulty in getting our voice heard, how must the Indian > government respond to the concerns of an *adivasi *located in a remote > village in Bastar!" > > Is anyone listening? > ------------------------------ > *For more information, see the following*: > > · Information on the Raipur Satyagraha for the Release of Dr. > Binayak Sen > is available here: http://raipursatyagraha.wordpress.com > > · More information on Dr. Binayak Sen and his case: > > o For a detailed analysis of the state’s case against Dr. Sen, read > the3-part series in Indian Express by Vinay Sitapati: > http://www.binayaksen.net/2009/01/indian-express-series-on-binayak- > sen/ > o A timeline of Binayak Sen’s case is available here: > http://www.binayaksen.net/2009/01/timeline-of-events-in-the-strange- > case-of-dr-binayak-sen/ > > o A compilation of news articles on Dr. Sen can be found at > www.binayaksen.net , www.freebinayaksen.org and > http://www.aidboston.org/FreeBinayakSen/media.htm > > · On Chhattisgarh Special Public Security Act, 2005: > > o The text of the law and its analysis by People’s Union for > DemocraticRights can be found here: > http://cpjc.wordpress.com/chhattisgarh-special-public-security-act/ > > o A law and its victim, Ajoy Ashirwad Mahaprashasta, Frontline, Oct- > Nov 2008 > http://www.hinduonnet.com/fline/fl2522/stories/20081107252212400.htm > > o Caught between Naxals and police, Indian Express, June 11, 2008 > http://in.news.yahoo.com/indianexpress/20080611/r_t_ie_nl_general/tnl-caught-between-naxals-and-police-aaaedd4_1.html > > · Fact-finding reports on Salwa Judum can be obtained from the > website for > the Campaign for Peace and Justice in Chhattisgarh, > http://cpjc.wordpress.com/reports-by-fact-finding-teams-on-salwa- > judum/ > · Letter to the Chhattisgarh government by over 50 international > peace and > justice groups can be found here: > http://docs.aidindia.org/Documents/AID- > Chapters/Maryland/campaign/Binayak_Sen_Org_Endorsement.pdf > > > ------------------------------ > *Photo Credits*: Pei Wu, Sangay Mishra, Somu Kumar and Balaji > Narasimhan*For more information*, contact: > Shalini Gera, mail at friendsofsouthasia.org > Murli Natrajan, mnatrajan at yahoo.com > > > > > -- > Any responsible politician should be encouraging a home grown Free > Softwareindustry because it creates the basis for future jobs. > Learning Windows is > like learning to eat every meal at McDonalds. > > > ------------------------------ > > Message: 4 > Date: Mon, 30 Mar 2009 11:34:27 +0530 > From: bipin > Subject: [Reader-list] Re: The decline of the 'encounter death' > To: Taha Mehmood <2tahamehmood at googlemail.com> > Cc: sarai-list > Message-ID: <002101c9b0fd$62d23e90$0201a8c0 at limo> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 > > Dear Taha, > > Its question of common sense and no study is required. The man who > accused remains in custody for long time and waiting for their > hearing in court to come. During the time they are mentally down or > may go under depression, which effects their health heavily. Police > strictness to get truth adds fuel to their mental/physical illness > position. If he proved innocent after pretty long time (say 8/10 > years) but mentally he would be tired and his health effected > heavily. > > > > No doubt, there might be cases of police atrocities, but looking to > the cases comes with police and court, this figure is negligible. > Also, the figure appear may be after studies, not necessarily true. > Since they just count death not only at jail, but death occur at > home, but case going on can also be counted. They are no > clarification in their data. > > > > For each and every thing one should not see in the eye research or > studies. Even thing I have noticed that after long research, data > achieved can also be easily understood by common sense. > > > > > thanks > > Bipin > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: Taha Mehmood > To: bipin > Sent: Monday, March 30, 2009 7:29 AM > Subject: Re: [Reader-list] The decline of the 'encounter death' > > > Dear Bipin > > Please tell me what has our judicial system got to do with > custodial deaths? What is the co-relationship between delay in > court cases and out dated laws and people dying under police > custody? Are there any studies or any figures that you would wish > to quote here or are we to believe your seemingly outrageous claims > on the basis of your word only? Again a primary reading of your > post might lead us to assume that ALL custodial deaths involve > people who are 'criminals', is that the case? If so then could you > please substantiate your argument. > > Regards > > Taha > > > > > > ------------------------------ > > _______________________________________________ > reader-list mailing list > reader-list at sarai.net > https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > > > End of reader-list Digest, Vol 68, Issue 76 > ******************************************* > From anivar.aravind at gmail.com Thu Apr 2 13:04:29 2009 From: anivar.aravind at gmail.com (Anivar Aravind) Date: Thu, 2 Apr 2009 13:04:29 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] =?utf-8?q?=E2=80=9CImmediately_withdraw_Charges_aga?= =?utf-8?q?inst_Dr=2E_Sen=E2=80=9D_=3A_UK-academics?= Message-ID: <35f96d470904020034t8b61321h1d9d0db249030a91@mail.gmail.com> “Immediately withdraw Charges against Dr. Sen” : UK-academics Letter to Guardian from UK-academics http://www.binayaksen.net/2009/04/letter-to-the-guardian/ We urge that Dr Sen be released, and be treated in the spirit of India’s own constitution. 30th March The Editor, The Guardian, London, UK As the world’s economic powers gather in London this week, with India featuring prominently among them, we hope they will take the time to consider human rights as well as the credit crunch. In particular, we, U.K-based academics, call attention to the continuing imprisonment of Dr Binayak Sen, the first Indian recipient of the 2008 Jonathan Mann award for Global Health and Human Rights. Dr Sen, a public health professional, has worked tirelessly for decades on issues of basic livelihood, health services and social justice. He has been incarcerated ’solely for peacefully exercising his fundamental rights,’ as twenty-two Nobel Laureates, British politicians and many other prominent figures have noted. Dr. Sen has been a political prisoner since 14th May 2007 in the Indian State of Chhattisgarh, and has been denied bail and appropriate medical treatment. He is on Amnesty International’s list of “Prisoners at Risk”. No credible charges have been brought against him but anti-terror legislation has been used to extend his detention. Supplementary charges and additional witnesses have been introduced with the apparent intention of endlessly prolonging his trial. The needs of the world’s underprivileged must be at the forefront of the G-20’s discussions. The Government of India must act immediately to withdraw the charges against one of the strongest champions of social justice. We urge that Dr Sen be released, and be treated in the spirit of India’s own constitution. At a time when the global economic situation has made the poor even more vulnerable, governments must support and work with, not incarcerate and abuse, those like Dr Sen and other human rights activists who work for positive change. Downloadlist of signatories as PDF 1. Dr. Riaz Ahmad, Part-time Lecturer in Mathematical Finance, University College London, London 2. Prof. Ravi Ahuja, Professor of Modern South Asian History, School of Oriental and African Studies, London 3. Dr Sundari Anitha, Research Fellow, University of Leeds,Leeds 4. Prof. Gautam Appa, Professor of Operational Research, London School of Economics, London 5. Dr. Thankom Gopinath Arun, Honorary Senior Fellow, Manchester University, Manchester 6. Dr Rita Astuti, Reader, London School of Economics, London 7. Ms Holly Aylett, Senior Research Fellow, The Global Policy Institute, London Metropolitan University 8. Dr. Mukulika Banerjee, Reader, University College London, London 9. Prof. Marcus Banks, Professor, University of Oxford, Oxford 10. Prof. Upendra Baxi, Professor of Law, University of Warwick, Coventry 11. Dr. Laura Bear, Lecturer, London School of Economics, London 12. Prof. Gillian Bendelow, Professor and Head of Department, Department of Sociology, University of Sussex, Brighton 13. Dr. Veronique Benei, Senior Research Fellow, London School of Economics, London 14. Dr. Philippa Berry, Visiting Fellow, University of Bristol, Bristol 15. Dr. Brenna Bhandar, Lecturer, Kent Law School, Kent 16. Prof. Maurice Bloch, Emeritus Professor of Anthropology, London School of Economics, London 17. Dr Monica M.E Bonaccorso-Rothe, Lecturer and Senior Research Fellow, Goldsmiths College, University of London, London 18. Dr. Gabriele vom Bruck, Senior Lecturer, School of Oriental and African Studies, London 19. Prof. Lionel Caplan, Emeritus Professor, School of Oriental and African Studies, London 20. Prof. Joshua Castellino, Professor of Law, Middlesex University, London 21. Dr Sharad Chari, Lecturer, London School of Economics 22. Dr. Shraddha Chigateri, Lecturer in Law, Keele University, Keele 23. Dr. Andrew Chitty, Lecturer in Philosophy, University of Sussex, Brighton 24. Dr Michael Collins, Department of History, University College London, London 25. Prof. Anthony Costello, Professor of International Child Health and Development, UCL Institute for Global Health, University College London, London 26. Dr. Radha D’Souza, Reader in Law, University of Westminster, London 27. Dr. Dimitris Dalakoglou, Lecturer in Anthropology, University of Sussex, Brighton 28. Dr Eliza Darling, Lecturer, Goldsmiths, University of London 29. Dr. Susan Daruvala, Senior Lecturer, University of Cambridge, Cambridge 30. Dr. Santanu Das, Lecturer, Queen Mary University of London, London 31. Dr Jonathan S Davies, Reader in Public Policy Governance and Public Management Group, Warwick Business School, Coventry 32. Prof Sophie Day, Professor of Anthropology, Goldsmiths, London 33. Dr. Lucy Delap, Lecturer in History, University of Cambridge, Cambridge 34. Dr. Manali Desai, Lecturer, London School of Economics and Political Science, London 35. Professor Lord Meghnad Desai, Professor Emeritus of Economics, London School of Economics 36. Dr. Henrike Donner, Lecturer, London School of Economics and Political Science, London 37. Prof. Elizabeth Dowler, Professor of Food and Social Policy, University of Warwick, Coventry 38. Dr. Jean Dreze, former Lecturer, London School of Economics, London 39. Dr. Ziad Elmarsafy, Department of English & Related Literature, University of York Heslington, York 40. Dr. Peggy Froerer, Lecturer in Anthropology, Brunel University, Uxbridge 41. Prof. David Gellner, Professor, University of Oxford, Oxford 42. Prof. Sayantan Ghosal, Professor of Economics, Department of Economics, University of Warwick, Coventry 43. Dr Aisha Gill, Criminologist, Roehampton University, London 44. Dr. Jay Ginn, Centre for Research on Ageing and Gender, Surrey University, Guildford 45. Dr. Priyamvada Gopal, Senior Lecturer, Cambridge University, Cambridge 46. Dr Gianluca Grimalda, Visiting fellow at the Centre for the Study of Globalisation and Regionalisation, Warwick University, Coventry 47. Dr. Sudeshna Guha, Lecturer (Affiliate), Cambridge University, Cambridge 48. Prof. David Hardiman, Professor, University of Warwick, Coventry 49. Dr. James Harrison, Assistant Professor School of Law,University of Warwick, Coventry 50. Prof. Barbara Harriss-White, Professor of Development Studies, Oxford University, Oxford 51. Prof. Keith Hart, Professor of Anthropology Emeritus, Goldsmiths College, London 52. Prof. Sylvia Harvey, Professor of Broadcasting Policy, University of Lincoln, Lincoln 53. Prof John Hinnells, Professor Emeritus at Liverpool Hope University and Honorary Professorial Research Associate at SOAS, London 54. Dr. Leo Howe, Senior Lecturer, Cambridge University, Cambridge 55. Dr. Michael Hrebeniak, Fellow, Tutor & Director of Studies in English, Wolfson College, University of Cambridge 56. Prof. C. Humphrey, Professor, University of Cambridge, Cambridge, 57. Prof. Michael Hutt, Professor of Nepali and Himalayan Studies, School of Oriental and African Studies, London 58. Prof. Deborah James, Professor, London School of Economics, London 59. Prof. Patricia Jeffery, Professor, University of Edinburgh, Edinburgh 60. Prof. Roger Jeffery, Professor, University of Edinburgh, Edinburgh 61. Anuradha Joshi, Fellow, Institute of Development Studies, University of Sussex, Brighton 62. Prof. Mushtaq Khan, Professor, School of Oriental and African Studies, London 63. Prof. Ursula King, FRSA Professor Emerita of Theology and Religious Studies and Senior Research Fellow at the Institute for Advanced Studies, University of Bristol and School of Oriental and African Studies, University of London 64. Prof. Udaya Kumar, Leverhulme Visiting Professor School of English Literature, Language and Linguistics,University of Newcastle 65. Dr. Helen Lambert, Senior Lecturer, University of Bristol, Bristol 66. Prof. Neil Lazarus, Professor, University of Warwick, Coventry 67. Dr. Alana Lentin, Senior Lecturer, Sociology, University of Sussex, Brighton 68. Dr. Les Levidow, Senior Research Fellow, Open University, Milton Keynes 69. Prof. Alan Macfarlane, Professor of Anthropological Science, University of Cambridge 70. Dr. Sumi Madhok Lecturer, London School of Economics and Political Science, London. 71. Dr. Luke Martell, Reader, University of Sussex, Brighton 72. Charlie Masquelier, Part-time lecturer in Sociology, Sussex University, Brighton 73. Reginald Massey, Independent Researcher, member of Society of Authors & Fellow of the Royal Society of Arts 74. Dr Emma Mawdsley, Lecturer, University of Cambridge, Cambridge 75. Dr. Lyla Mehta, Research Fellow, University of Sussex, Brighton 76. Dr. Usha Menon, Senior Lecturer, University College London, London 77. Dr. Perveez Mody, Lecturer, Cambridge University, Cambridge 78. Dr. Massimiliano Mollona, Lecturer, Goldsmiths University, London 79. Dr Sian Moore, Reader, Working Lives Research Institute, London Metropolitan University 80. Dr Subha Mukherji, University of Cambridge, Cambridge 81. Dr. Parita Mukta, Senior Lecturer, University of Warwick, Coventry 82. Professor Sally R Munt, Director: Sussex Centre for Cultural Studies, University of Sussex, Brighton 83. Dr. Khalid Nadvi, Senior Lecturer, Manchester University, Manchester 84. Dr. Uttara Natarajan, Senior Lecturer, Goldsmiths, University of London 85. Professor Jonothan Neelands, National Teaching Fellow, Chair of Drama and Theatre Education, University of Warwick, Coventry 86. Prof Eleanor Nesbitt, Professor in Religions and Education, University of Warwick, Coventry 87. Dr. Eleanor Newbigin, Junior Research Fellow, Trinity College, University of Cambridge, Cambridge 88. Ines Newman, Principal Research Fellow, Warwick Business School, Coventry 89. Dr. Pippa Oakeshott, Reader in General Practice, Community Health Sciences, St George’s, University of London 90. Dr. Daniel O’Connor, Honorary Fellow, Edinburgh University, Edinburgh 91. Professor Judith Okely, Emeritus Professor of Social Anthropology, University of Hull & Deputy Director of the International Gender Studies Centre, Queen Elizabeth House, Oxford 92. Dr. Harsh Pant, Lecturer, King’s College London 93. Professor Lord Bhikhu Parekh, Professor of Political Philosophy, University of Westminster, Emeritus Professor of Political Theory at the University of Hull, U.K 94. Prof. Jonathan P. Parry, Professor, London School of Economics, London 95. Prof Benita Parry, Professor, University of Warwick, Coventry 96. Dr. Daniela M. Peluso, Lecturer, University of Kent, Canterbury 97. Dr. Frances Pine, Reader in Anthropology, Goldsmiths University of London 98. Prof. Chistopher Pinney, Professor of Anthropology, University College London, London 99. Prof. Allyson Pollock, Professor of International Public Health Policy, University of Edinburgh, Edinburgh 100. Dr. Mike Poltorak, Lecturer, University of Kent, Canterbury 101. Prof. Shirin M. Rai, Professor, University of Warwick, Coventry 102. Dr. Dwijen Rangnekar, Senior Research Fellow, Warwick University, Coventry 103. Dr. Manav Ratti, Assistant Professor, University of Warwick, Coventry 104. Prof. Andrew Rigby, Professor of Peace Studies, Coventry University, Coventry 105. Dr. Ben Rogaly, Senior Lecturer, University of Sussex, Brighton 106. Prof. Jonathan Rosenhead, Emeritus Professor, London School of Economics, London 107. Prof. Vaskar Saha, Professor, Manchester University, Manchester 108. Dr. Minoli Salgado, Senior Lecturer, University of Sussex, Sussex 109. Dr. Esther Saraga, Senior Lecturer, The Open University, Milton Keynes 110. Prof. Shaheen Sardar Ali, Professor, School of Law, University of Warwick, Coventry 111. Dr. Eurig Scandrett, Lecturer in Sociology, Queen Margaret University, Edinburgh 112. Dr. Michael W. Scott Lecturer, London School of Economics, London 113. Prof. Kunal Sen, Professor of Development Economics and Policy, Manchester University, Manchester 114. Prof. Sanjay Seth, Professor of Politics, Goldsmiths, University of London, London 115. Dr. Esha Shah, Research Fellow, IDS, University of Sussex, Brighton 116. Prof. Martin Shaw, Research Professor, Dept. of International Relations, University of Sussex 117. Dr Taylor C. Sherman, Royal Holloway University of London 118. Dr. Pritam Singh, Senior Lecturer, Oxford Brookes University, Oxford 119. Dr. Subir Sinha, Senior Lecturer, SOAS, London 120. Tamara Sivanandan, Head of Social Sciences Department, Middlesex University, London 121. Prof. Angela Smith, Professor Emeritus, University of Stirling, Stirling 122. Dr. S. Sreenivasaprasad, Assistant Professor, University of Warwick, Coventry 123. Dr Colin Stolkin, Senior Lecturer in Anatomy, King’s College London, London 124. Dr. Clarinda Still, Lecturer in Modern India Studies, University of Oxford, Oxford 125. Dr Nikita Sud, Lecturer, University of Oxford, Oxford 126. Dr. Deborah Sutton, Lecturer, University of Lancaster, Lancaster 127. Dr. Emma Tarlo Reader, Department of Anthropology, Goldsmiths,University of London 128. Dr. Dania Thomas, Lecturer, School of Law, Keele University, Keele 129. Eva Turner, Principal Lecturer, University of East London, London 130. Dr. Maya Unnithan, Reader in Social Anthropology, University of Sussex, Brighton 131. Dr. Rashmi Varma, Senior Lecturer, University of Warwick, Coventry 132. Dr. Penny Vera-Sanso, Lecturer, Birkbeck College, University of London 133. Dr. Bhaskar Vira, Senior Lecturer, University of Cambridge, Cambridge 134. Dr Chrstopher Warnes, Lecturer, Cambridge University, Cambridge 135. Dr. Maya Warrier, Senior Lecturer, University of Wales, Lampeter 136. Dr. Sari Wastell, Lecturer, Goldsmiths, University of London, London 137. Dr Karen Wells, Programme Director International Childhood Studies, Birkbeck College, London 138. Prof. Ann Whitehead, Professor of Anthropology, University of Sussex 139. Professor Janet Wilson, The University of Northampton 140. Dr Kalpana Wilson, LSE Fellow in Transnational Gender Studies, Gender Institute, London School of Economics and Political Science, London 141. Dr Benjamin Zachariah, Reader in South Asian History, University of Sheffield, Sheffield -- Any responsible politician should be encouraging a home grown Free Software industry because it creates the basis for future jobs. Learning Windows is like learning to eat every meal at McDonalds. From aliens at dataone.in Thu Apr 2 13:49:15 2009 From: aliens at dataone.in (bipin) Date: Thu, 02 Apr 2009 13:49:15 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] reader-list Digest, Vol 68, Issue 76 References: Message-ID: <00cc01c9b36b$b658b830$0201a8c0@limo> well said Reajendra ----- Original Message ----- From: To: Sent: Thursday, April 02, 2009 12:40 PM Subject: Re: [Reader-list] reader-list Digest, Vol 68, Issue 76 > > Dear All, > it is really amusing to me when I raise the topic on reality check of > indian democracy, the so called intelligentia of the sari readers list is > deadly silence and not even one response to the thoughts put in the post. > ! > > If I were to post some thoughts about how the communism and its leaders > are parasytes on labour class, living their life on the subscriptions paid > by the poor working class, there would be enough responses justifying the > leaders actions, if I were to talk about the rape of a young girl in > Singur by goon cadres, murders and grievious hurt inflicted on poor > citizens to deprive them of their right to property some more responses > from "secular" intellect. > > But if I were to talk of rule of laws that is being subverted in > democratic governance of the nation, the blame game starts of blaming the > major community and the politics of vote banks of hindus, very amusing > indeed. If lakhs of followers of one faith form a jammaath it is not > communal, if lakhs of a caste say, yadavs form a party and then its leader > loots the fodder funds, he is very secular, if he stops the peaceful Rath > yathra, thus causing riots, it is the responsibilty of the leader Advani.? > If I talk of judges who fudge their date of births and loot 600 crores > in official residence thru their sons on non-existing assets, if the > judges gulp down crores of PF money for their comforts, judiciary is still > clean and honest.? If the Law minister clandestinely operates to send the > court official to London to defreeze the account, we have a chief justice > who has no powers to take suo moto note of this dirty operation of > kickbacks being reverted to uncle Q.? The same law minister warns a > convict and a friend of terrorist to contest from his party or > otherwise... the highest court applies its mind.? > > A simple land dispute about a dilapidated structure on land belonging to > maharaja awauts judgement of judiciary for decades, if the structire not > even used for prayer becomes a masjid to evoke emotional respones, what > sort of calibre is these judges have who can not dispose off the cases and > adjudicate them at the earliest, so that the political parties do not use > it as vote gathering tool in democratic elections.? > > The chief justice finds technical loop holes to save the officer of the > election commission even when he loots crores of rupess in his wifes NGO, > and becomes a mole for the political party, and the contribution of > judiciary is immense in this type of actions where they do not seem to > have guts to talk of corruption in Election commission. EPIC or voters id > cards issue is biggest corruption scandal with use of IT and tendering > process and the EC has not even covered 50 percent of voters in nation. > Shame on such "autonomous" bodies who play games with common man to > appease the political parties.This can be verified easily by the > serpentine ques for epic cards even now, with tout charging 100 bucks for > facilitation of epic cards in metro cities. Bogus cards are another > menace. > > Regards, > > Rajendra Uppinangadi, > rajen882uppinangadi at gmail.com > > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: reader-list-request at sarai.net > Date: Monday, March 30, 2009 11:35 am > Subject: reader-list Digest, Vol 68, Issue 76 > To: reader-list at sarai.net > >> Send reader-list mailing list submissions to >> reader-list at sarai.net >> >> To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit >> https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list >> or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to >> reader-list-request at sarai.net >> >> You can reach the person managing the list at >> reader-list-owner at sarai.net >> >> When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific >> than "Re: Contents of reader-list digest..." >> >> >> Today's Topics: >> >> 1. Re: reader-list Digest, Vol 68, Issue 62Freedom and right to >> express at what cost to society.? (rajenradhika at vsnl.net) >> 2. Are News Channels emerging as arbitrators of the I-card >> discourse? (Taha Mehmood) >> 3. "Free, Free Binayak Sen!" -- Report on U.S. Actions in >> Solidarity with the Raipur Satyagraha (Anivar Aravind) >> 4. Re: The decline of the 'encounter death' (bipin) >> >> >> -------------------------------------------------------------------- >> -- >> >> Message: 1 >> Date: Sun, 29 Mar 2009 12:16:30 +0500 >> From: rajenradhika at vsnl.net >> Subject: Re: [Reader-list] reader-list Digest, Vol 68, Issue 62Freedom >> and right to express at what cost to society.? >> To: Rakesh Iyer >> Cc: sarai-list >> Message-ID: >> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii >> >> >> We the citizens of India gave ourselves the constitution of India >> which gave us rights to property, rights to life, rights to >> express individually and we live in the nation state as a social >> group of citizens and the state when it declared itself as a >> secular, it means in letter and spirit that the state does not >> uphold any faith, faith is strictly in the individuals prerogative >> to live life as per his personal belief, practice the faith he >> believes in, but th conflict comes in to play when the individual >> wants to impose his faith in his right to express on the the other >> individuals in the society. >> >> Right to property is upheld by the constitution in its articles but >> the governance by leaders elected by us, the citizens have >> systematically denied this right to property, right from >> Keshavanand Bharathi vs. Union of India case law judgement by >> amending the constitution and inserting such laws into schedules in >> the constitution which are beyond the perview of judicial system. >> >> Right to have faith as strictly personal domain is again violated >> by the Shah bano case law judgement by amending the laws to suit >> vote banks, faith is used as a tool to gather votes. >> We see today and in the last sixty two years of governance all >> the political parties either for a faith or against a faith, either >> for a community or against a community, either for few business >> houses or against a few more business houses. Is this the true >> facet of democratic governance.? >> >> True democratic rule in letter and spirit is when the elected >> who take oaths of office to govern, without fear or favour in just >> governance to all the citizens. But our leaders violate the oath >> taken the very day by imposing their whims and fancies on selective >> governance to citizens. Irrespective of the political parties the >> issues of good governance alays take the last priority, the >> community which voted them to power gains its pound of flesh and >> discrimination in governance starts immediately. >> >> As to the four pillars of democratic governance, let us examine >> the role of each of these in good governance or lack of it. >> Political leadership or legislative pillar as explained above is >> partisan and never does it rule with just and fair rule of law >> enshrined in constitution. Only this can explain the coterie >> culture of leaders as seen in every political parties, Sonia with >> her one faith folowers as her inner circle, Advani with core >> idealogists as his advisers, less said it is better. >> >> Now our babus, with weak and corrupt leadrs to pamper, the babus >> for a nexus to keep these leaders happy and in the meanwhile >> feather their nests. Thus deprived citizens are frustrated lot, so >> naxal movement and other form of demand for fair rule of law is >> evident in the nation, but naxals when they take law in to their >> own hands towards reform of the system, they are outlawed, >> naturally. So are the religious fanatics as they take violence as a >> method of correction of the system.Hence rama sena and such other >> outfits are illegal as the method is illegal . >> >> The next is judiciary which in normal rule of laws is most >> respected of all the pillars of democracy. But when the retired >> chief justice of the highest court admits that there are 10 percent >> corrupt in judiciary, and we see the case of a judge not being >> impeached for regional considerations by "national" party, a chief >> justice fudging his date of birth to be in seat for a few more >> months, a chief justice shielding his sons in his official >> residence to avail 600 crore loans in non-existent land assets, >> judges in PF scams encashing employees' provident funds, judge >> keeping the funds in his personal account being the receiver of the >> court, are all indications of decay in judicial process. The chief >> justice who can not act when his judicial officer goes to London to >> release 21 crore to uncle Q with begging the crown prosecutors' >> office, but instead gets the promotion, and scam money reaches the >> culprit with the knowledge of the law minister and the beneficiary >> pretends ignora >> nce of the loot, what more certification is needed of the falling >> standards of judicial system other than untold delays and >> subversion of the system.? The lawyers playing with the process, >> bribing the witness, duress to witness is also not uncommon. >> >> The last of the pillars, the media, has its own fair share of >> corrupt men and women in journalism. The poll surveys, reportage of >> the events have ,ade the citizens realise that all the news are not >> news but only views of such blacksheep in journalism. As to rewards >> and awards, what service these blacksheep of media anchors served >> the society is big question mark as they seem to be more involved >> in newly evolved moral games of life styles and reportage of >> sensation rather that relevance to the society with trp as only >> driving forces. >> >> Unless the society and citizens understand and inculcate what is >> right and correct way of life irrespective of faith, ( as all >> faiths are only way of life to live life ethically and morally >> correct.) and what is wrong in societal life, the democratic rule >> of laws and god governance will be a mirage. >> >> Regards, >> >> Rajendra Uppinangadi, >> rajen882uppinangad at gmail.com. >> >> PS: Author is not member to the list if the moderator/ >> administrator feels fit may invite the author to be its member of >> the list, any way freedom of expression for author is not a right >> of obsession to rule other thoughts but to exchange all thoughts >> and take the best for the life. >> ----- Original Message ----- >> From: Rakesh Iyer >> Date: Wednesday, March 25, 2009 3:43 pm >> Subject: Re: [Reader-list] reader-list Digest, Vol 68,Issue >> 62Freedom and right to express at what cost to society.? >> To: bipin >> Cc: rajenradhika at vsnl.net, sarai-list >> >> > Dear all >> > >> > I can understand the point that freedom of expression is more >> > important than >> > peace, for after all any peace without any freedom of expression >> is >> > only the >> > lull before the storm waiting to happen. Plus of course, it >> hampers >> > one of >> > the basic human rights of citizens. >> > >> > However, the other question which is confusing my mind, as >> pointed >> > out in >> > the article, is regarding nation-states providing rights to >> > citizens. I >> > don't know much on this, so it would be good if we can discuss on >> > whetherit's nation-states which act as the agencies to provide >> > rights (and hence >> > without them people can't ask for rights), or is it that rights >> are >> > inherentirrespective of whether nation-states exist or not. >> > >> > Regards >> > >> > Rakesh >> > >> >> >> ------------------------------ >> >> Message: 2 >> Date: Sun, 29 Mar 2009 18:37:39 +0100 >> From: Taha Mehmood <2tahamehmood at googlemail.com> >> Subject: [Reader-list] Are News Channels emerging as arbitrators of >> the I-card discourse? >> To: reader-list >> Message-ID: >> <65be9bf40903291037o454b506v55465ecbba234004 at mail.gmail.com> >> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 >> >> Dear all >> >> CNN IBN's Kinnari Patel reports about a village called Nargol in >> Gujaratwhere it is mandatory for residents to have an I-card. All >> the villagers >> have shared their fingerprints with the local police, she ends her >> report by >> suggesting that, 'Nargol's is probably one story Gujarat and the >> rest of the >> country should take lessons from.'. Interestingly in another >> version of the >> same story, CNN IBN's Urunuday Majumdar suggests that, this experiment >> should be 'emulated' by the rest of india. >> >> Regards >> >> Taha >> >> Please follow the links below to check out the stories- >> >> http://ibnlive.in.com/videos/70576/crime-control-you-need-an-icard- >> to-enter-this-village.html >> >> http://ibnlive.in.com/news/crime-control-you-need-an-icard-to-enter- >> this-village/70576-3.html >> >> >> ------------------------------ >> >> Message: 3 >> Date: Mon, 30 Mar 2009 07:50:28 +0530 >> From: Anivar Aravind >> Subject: [Reader-list] "Free, Free Binayak Sen!" -- Report on U.S. >> Actions in Solidarity with the Raipur Satyagraha >> To: Greenyouth , Reader List >> , "fourth-estate-critique at googlegroups.com" >> >> Message-ID: >> <35f96d470903291920m9ee9220wf85f3eec8ddea4a9 at mail.gmail.com> >> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 >> >> ---------- Forwarded message -------- >> [Thanks to all those who participated in Friday's solidarity action >> with the >> Raipur Satyagraha. Below is a report on the actions held in three >> differentcities in the US. Please forward to other groups.] >> http://www.binayaksen.net/2009/03/free-free-binayak-sen-report-on- >> us-protests/ >> ** >> *"Free, Free Binayak Sen!" * >> *50 international groups organize support in the USA for the Raipur >> Satyagraha **in India* >> *Simultaneous protests held in 3 US cities* >> >> * San >> Francisco, CA, >> New York, NY and Washington DC, 28 March, 2009:* Verve and vigor >> marked the >> simultaneous protests held at the Indian embassy and consulates in >> Washington DC, New York City and San Francisco on March 27th, >> demanding the >> immediate release of Dr. Binayak Sen, an end to the repressive >> ChhattisgarhSpecial People's Security Act (CSPSA) and disbanding of >> the state-sponsored >> militia, Salwa Judum. Activists from Association for India's >> Development(AID), Friends of South Asia (FOSA), South Asia >> Solidarity Initiative >> (SASI), International League of People's Struggles, students and >> facultyfrom local universities participated in these protests, >> coinciding with the >> *Raipur Satyagraha* *, >> *theongoing mass civil disobedience action in the city of Raipur >> where Dr. Sen >> is incarcerated. Over 50 groups from the US, UK and Canada have >> written to >> the Chhattisgarh government and offered their support to the Raipur >> Satyagraha, and nearly 600 individual faxes have also been sent to the >> Chhattisgarh government from around the world. >> >> The22-month >> long, unjustifiable detention of Dr. Binayak >> Senhas become a >> rallying point for human rights and peace and justice groups in >> India and internationally. A pediatrician by training who chose to >> workwith the marginalized and malnourished people in remote >> villages of >> Chhattisgarh in central India, Dr. Binayak Sen has been recognized >> for his >> contributions to public health and human rights with the Paul Harrison >> awardby >> his alma mater, the Christian Medical College, Vellore, the R.R. >> Keithan gold >> medalfromthe >> Indian Academy of Social Sciences, and the Jonathan >> Mann Award by the >> GlobalHealth Council in Washington DC. As Vice-president of >> People's Union for >> Civil Liberties (PUCL), Dr Binayak Sen was >> instrumental in bringing to light the excesses of the Chhattisgarh >> government's security apparatus, notably the Salwa Judum, a state- >> sponsoredmilitia which has wreaked havoc in the villages of south >> Bastar district. >> Activists and intellectuals, including Noam Chomsky, Arundhati Roy, >> GeorgeGalloway, Mahashweta Devi, over 135 faculty members and 22 >> nobel laureates >> from around the world have joined in urging the Indian government >> to free >> Dr. Binayak Sen and stop the harassment of human rights activists. >> >> >> Anu Mandavilli, >> with Friends >> of South Asia (FOSA), reminded >> theprotestors in San Francisco, that the one-year long trial of Dr. >> Sen, which >> included testimonies from over 50 government witnesses, has not >> produced a >> shred of evidence or a single witness who could corroborate the >> Government'sclaim that Dr. Sen engaged in seditious activities. >> "Yet, the courts have >> denied Dr. Sen's bail application three times. It is interesting >> to note >> that men from Shri Ram Sene, who beat up women in Mangalore pubs in >> front of >> cameras, were released on bail within 6 hours. Whereas Dr. Sen, >> with an >> impeccable 25-year record of public service, and no evidence >> against him, >> has been in jail for 22 months now." >> >> Angana >> Chatterji,associate professor, California Institute of Integral >> Studies, cited the >> harassment of other human rights defenders in Orissa and Kashmir, >> statingthat Dr. Sen's case represents an alarming trend where the >> Indian state is >> using draconian laws to silence those who oppose state repression. >> Indeed,Dr. Sen is only the most prominent among numerous human >> rights defenders and >> public intellectuals who languish in Indian jails because they >> dared to >> speak truth to power. >> >> >> InNew >> York, activists gathered outside the Indian consulate to read Dr. Sen's >> New Year Letter from jail, recite poems from around the world in >> support of >> Dr. Sen, and sing songs of collective action. Jinee Lokaneeta of >> the South >> Asia Solidarity Initiative (SASI), and on the faculty at Drew >> University,drew attention to the fact that notwithstanding the >> floundering case against >> Dr. Sen, the government has recently produced an additional >> supplementarychargesheet against him. "By repeatedly denying Dr. >> Sen's bail application, >> and purposefully prolonging a meaningless trial, the state is >> ensuring that >> Dr. Sen stays in prison a long time, even if charges against him >> are never >> proved." >> >> Murli Natrajan, also of SASI and a faculty member at William Paterson >> University, added, "The laws used by the state to arrest Dr. Sen >> are truly >> draconian. These are the latest in the tradition of other harsh >> laws, such >> as MISA, TADA and POTA, each one of which had to be abandoned after >> beingdeclared unconstitutional by the highest judicial authorities, >> and after >> gross misuse by the state's security apparatus became apparent." >> >> Somu Kumar, >> with Association >> for India's Development (AID), and one >> of the >> organizers of the protest at the Indian embassy in Washington DC, >> highlighted that these protests are not limited to demanding the human >> rights of just one inidividual, Dr. Binayak Sen, but are in >> opposition to a >> system which criminalizes those who point out its shortcomings. >> "At this >> point, Dr. Sen is a symbol of many other ongoing struggles in >> India--especially those of the *adivasis*, the indigenous >> inhabitants of the >> mineral rich areas, who are resisting displacement by large mining >> companies, and whose rights Dr. Sen was championing. These >> protests are >> also to demand consideration for the human rights of the *adivasis *of >> Chhattisgarh, more than 100,000 of who are officially internally >> displacedpeople due to the actions of the state-sponsored Salwa >> Judum." >> >> >> A letter >> signed by >> more than 50 international peace and justice >> groups> Chapters/Maryland/campaign/Binayak_Sen_Org_Endorsement.pdf>,and a >> list of individuals who have faxed >> letters> support-of-the-raipur-satyagraha-for-release-of-dr-binayak-sen/>to >> the Chhattisgarh and central governments, were submitted to the Indian >> consular staff at each city who have guaranteed their delivery to >> the desks >> of the Chief Minister of Chhattisgarh, the President and Prime >> Minister of >> India, and the Chairperson of the National Human Rights Commission. >> Someactivists voiced their disappointment that the government of >> India had yet >> to acknowledge any of their previous submissions made over the >> course of the >> last year. "In spite of sending several hundred faxes, multiple >> letters,and individual emails to various officials, we have yet to >> hear back from a >> single government official that our letters have been received and >> read,leave alone considered," said Srividhya Venkataraman, with AID- >> Berkeley.She added, "The Indian government has made it a priority >> to reach out to >> NRIs. But if we, with multiple channels of communication available >> to us, >> have such difficulty in getting our voice heard, how must the Indian >> government respond to the concerns of an *adivasi *located in a remote >> village in Bastar!" >> >> Is anyone listening? >> ------------------------------ >> *For more information, see the following*: >> >> · Information on the Raipur Satyagraha for the Release of Dr. >> Binayak Sen >> is available here: http://raipursatyagraha.wordpress.com >> >> · More information on Dr. Binayak Sen and his case: >> >> o For a detailed analysis of the state’s case against Dr. Sen, read >> the3-part series in Indian Express by Vinay Sitapati: >> http://www.binayaksen.net/2009/01/indian-express-series-on-binayak- >> sen/ >> o A timeline of Binayak Sen’s case is available here: >> http://www.binayaksen.net/2009/01/timeline-of-events-in-the-strange- >> case-of-dr-binayak-sen/ >> >> o A compilation of news articles on Dr. Sen can be found at >> www.binayaksen.net , www.freebinayaksen.org and >> http://www.aidboston.org/FreeBinayakSen/media.htm >> >> · On Chhattisgarh Special Public Security Act, 2005: >> >> o The text of the law and its analysis by People’s Union for >> DemocraticRights can be found here: >> http://cpjc.wordpress.com/chhattisgarh-special-public-security-act/ >> >> o A law and its victim, Ajoy Ashirwad Mahaprashasta, Frontline, Oct- >> Nov 2008 >> http://www.hinduonnet.com/fline/fl2522/stories/20081107252212400.htm >> >> o Caught between Naxals and police, Indian Express, June 11, 2008 >> http://in.news.yahoo.com/indianexpress/20080611/r_t_ie_nl_general/tnl-caught-between-naxals-and-police-aaaedd4_1.html >> >> · Fact-finding reports on Salwa Judum can be obtained from the >> website for >> the Campaign for Peace and Justice in Chhattisgarh, >> http://cpjc.wordpress.com/reports-by-fact-finding-teams-on-salwa- >> judum/ >> · Letter to the Chhattisgarh government by over 50 international >> peace and >> justice groups can be found here: >> http://docs.aidindia.org/Documents/AID- >> Chapters/Maryland/campaign/Binayak_Sen_Org_Endorsement.pdf >> >> >> ------------------------------ >> *Photo Credits*: Pei Wu, Sangay Mishra, Somu Kumar and Balaji >> Narasimhan*For more information*, contact: >> Shalini Gera, mail at friendsofsouthasia.org >> Murli Natrajan, mnatrajan at yahoo.com >> >> >> >> >> -- >> Any responsible politician should be encouraging a home grown Free >> Softwareindustry because it creates the basis for future jobs. >> Learning Windows is >> like learning to eat every meal at McDonalds. >> >> >> ------------------------------ >> >> Message: 4 >> Date: Mon, 30 Mar 2009 11:34:27 +0530 >> From: bipin >> Subject: [Reader-list] Re: The decline of the 'encounter death' >> To: Taha Mehmood <2tahamehmood at googlemail.com> >> Cc: sarai-list >> Message-ID: <002101c9b0fd$62d23e90$0201a8c0 at limo> >> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 >> >> Dear Taha, >> >> Its question of common sense and no study is required. The man who >> accused remains in custody for long time and waiting for their >> hearing in court to come. During the time they are mentally down or >> may go under depression, which effects their health heavily. Police >> strictness to get truth adds fuel to their mental/physical illness >> position. If he proved innocent after pretty long time (say 8/10 >> years) but mentally he would be tired and his health effected >> heavily. >> >> >> >> No doubt, there might be cases of police atrocities, but looking to >> the cases comes with police and court, this figure is negligible. >> Also, the figure appear may be after studies, not necessarily true. >> Since they just count death not only at jail, but death occur at >> home, but case going on can also be counted. They are no >> clarification in their data. >> >> >> >> For each and every thing one should not see in the eye research or >> studies. Even thing I have noticed that after long research, data >> achieved can also be easily understood by common sense. >> >> >> >> >> thanks >> >> Bipin >> >> >> >> ----- Original Message ----- >> From: Taha Mehmood >> To: bipin >> Sent: Monday, March 30, 2009 7:29 AM >> Subject: Re: [Reader-list] The decline of the 'encounter death' >> >> >> Dear Bipin >> >> Please tell me what has our judicial system got to do with >> custodial deaths? What is the co-relationship between delay in >> court cases and out dated laws and people dying under police >> custody? Are there any studies or any figures that you would wish >> to quote here or are we to believe your seemingly outrageous claims >> on the basis of your word only? Again a primary reading of your >> post might lead us to assume that ALL custodial deaths involve >> people who are 'criminals', is that the case? If so then could you >> please substantiate your argument. >> >> Regards >> >> Taha >> >> >> >> >> >> ------------------------------ >> >> _______________________________________________ >> reader-list mailing list >> reader-list at sarai.net >> https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list >> >> >> End of reader-list Digest, Vol 68, Issue 76 >> ******************************************* >> > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > subscribe in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> From epk at xs4all.nl Thu Apr 2 15:04:52 2009 From: epk at xs4all.nl (Eric Kluitenberg) Date: Thu, 2 Apr 2009 11:34:52 +0200 Subject: [Reader-list] A second tulip mania In-Reply-To: <65be9bf40904020012i4ef65f19gc1fc987dbc7dbb63@mail.gmail.com> References: <65be9bf40904020012i4ef65f19gc1fc987dbc7dbb63@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: Funny Taha, This metaphor was of course highly popular with regards to the demise of the 'new economy' at the beginning of this wonderful millennium... At the time we organised a stingy little conference, at the instigation of Geert Lovink, called Tulipomania DotCom to develop a critique of the new economy. It started when things still looked marvellous in '99 and took place in June 2000 a few months after the DotCom bust. Amazing experience to see this particular investment bubble climax and implode. So, perhaps we should call this implosion a third tulip mania - though the real message here is that these kind of implosions are simply systemic, and to some extent deliberate, just the scale of this one is different. Later I compiled all materials that came out of the conference, including a very good reader Geert put together, in a web dossier on the Balie website called "In Memoriam: The New Economy", which also contains some follow-up pieces. For those enticed by this "Schadensfreude" over imploded investment bubbles you can still have a look at it here: http://www.debalie.nl/dossierpagina.jsp?dossierid=13515 It's good to have a memory! Unfortunately we did not yet record all events for posterity at the time, though we might quite soon reconstruct the audio recordings of the event. (we're working on a comprehensive audio archive). bests, Eric On Apr 2, 2009, at 9:12, Taha Mehmood wrote: > Dear All > > Seems like the recession is going to have an adverse effect on art > market too. The writer of the article below makes an argument by > comparing the rise of 'contemporary art' in recent years to mania > which surrounded the sale of tupil bulbs in 17 century. So, after the > futures and derivative bubble, the housing sub-prime bubble, it > appears that the time has come now for the contemporary art bubble to > burst. > > Regards > > Taha > > http://www.prospect-magazine.co.uk/article_details.php?id=10474 > > The prices of contemporary art works have risen to astonishing levels > in recent years. Insiders say it’s because we have been living through > a golden age of art. Nonsense, argue Ben Lewis and Jonathan Ford, it > is a classic investment bubble > Ben Lewis > Jonathan Ford From rahul_capri at yahoo.com Thu Apr 2 19:19:39 2009 From: rahul_capri at yahoo.com (Rahul Asthana) Date: Thu, 2 Apr 2009 06:49:39 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Reader-list] The Epitaph of a Mind: Vir Sanghvi In-Reply-To: <816926.55325.qm@web51402.mail.re2.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <357485.7431.qm@web53611.mail.re2.yahoo.com> Dear Yousuf, It isn't clear from your email whether you agree or disagree with the writers contention. Can you please clarify? Thanks Rahul --- On Thu, 3/26/09, Yousuf wrote: > From: Yousuf > Subject: Re: [Reader-list] The Epitaph of a Mind: Vir Sanghvi > To: "Sarai" , "Wali Arifi" > Date: Thursday, March 26, 2009, 12:13 PM > Thanks Wali Arifi for posting this write-up. > I am amazed at the shallowness of the analysis made by such > an experienced journalist. If one can get to know about the > people of a certain country simply by observing the most > apparent signs (as seen on TV) of last few days and > generalize that they are evil or different or whatever, > compared to us, then I think Vir Sanghvi is right. But I am > sure such a simple generalization could even be made by a > 6th grade school student brought up on a diet of TV news. > > If Pakistanis are not the same people as us (Indians) > simply because over last 60 years they have grown to become > something else (something of an evil), haven't we > Indians grown to become something else? What makes > Mr.Sanghvi think that among the twins separated at birth one > has gone in the right direction while the other one has been > spoiled. > > But talking about the same-ness, at one level even the > residents of Amritsar and Lahore have been very different > (even before 1947), and at another level, the people of > Kabul and Kandhamal are the same, even today. Am I not > right? > > Yousuf > > > --- On Thu, 3/26/09, Wali Arifi > wrote: > > > From: Wali Arifi > > Subject: [Reader-list] The Epitaph of a Mind: Vir > Sanghvi > > To: "Sarai" > > Date: Thursday, March 26, 2009, 11:07 AM > > Vir Sanghvi, Hindustan Times > > March 07, 2009 > > First Published: 21:47 IST(7/3/2009) > > > > The same people? Surely not > > > > Few things annoy me as much as the claim often > advanced by > > well-meaning but woolly- headed (and usually Punjabi) > > liberals to the > > effect that when it comes to India and Pakistan, > > "We’re all the same > > people, yaar." > > > > This may have been true once upon a time. Before 1947, > > Pakistan was > > part of undivided India and you could claim that > Punjabis > > from West > > Punjab (what is now Pakistan) were as Indian as, say, > > Tamils from > > Madras. > > > > But time has a way of moving on. And while the gap > between > > our > > Punjabis (from east Punjab which is now the only > Punjab > > left in India) > > and our Tamils may actually have narrowed, thanks to > > improved > > communications, shared popular culture and greater > physical > > mobility, > > the gap between Indians and Pakistanis has now widened > to > > the extent > > that we are no longer the same people in any > significant > > sense. > > > > This was brought home to me most clearly by two major > > events over the > > last few weeks. > > > > The first of these was the attack on the Sri Lankan > cricket > > team on > > the streets of Lahore. In their defence, Pakistanis > said > > that they > > were powerless to act against the terrorists because > > religious > > fanaticism was growing. Each day more misguided > youngsters > > joined > > jihadi outfits and the law and order situation > worsened. > > > > Further, they added, things had got so bad that in the > > tribal areas > > the government of Pakistan had agreed to suspend the > rule > > of law under > > pressure from the Taliban and had conceded that sharia > law > > would reign > > instead. Interestingly, while most civilised liberals > > should have been > > appalled by this surrender to the forces of extremism, > many > > Pakistanis > > defended this concession. > > > > Imran Khan (Keble College, Oxford, 1973-76) even > declared > > that sharia > > law would be better because justice would be dispensed > more > > swiftly! > > (I know this is politically incorrect but the Loin of > the > > Punjab’s > > defence of sharia law reminded me of the famous > Private Eye > > cover when > > his marriage to Jemima Goldsmith was announced. The > Eye > > carried a > > picture of Khan speaking to Jemima’s father. “Can > I > > have your > > daughter’s hand?” Imran was supposedly asking > James > > Goldsmith. “Why? > > Has she been caught shoplifting?” Goldsmith replied. > So > > much for > > sharia law.) > > > > The second contrasting event was one that took place > in Los > > Angeles > > but which was perhaps celebrated more in India than in > any > > other > > country in the world. Three Indians won Oscars: A.R. > > Rahman, Resul > > Pookutty and Gulzar. > > > > Their victory set off a frenzy of rejoicing. We were > proud > > of our > > countrymen. We were pleased that India’s > entertainment > > industry and > > its veterans had been recognised at an international > > platform. And all > > three men became even bigger heroes than they already > were. > > > > But here’s the thing: Not one of them is a Hindu. > > > > Can you imagine such a thing happening in Pakistan? > Can you > > even > > conceive of a situation where the whole country would > > celebrate the > > victory of three members of two religious minorities? > For > > that matter, > > can you even imagine a situation where people from > > religious > > minorities would have got to the top of their fields > and > > were, > > therefore, in the running for international awards? > > > > On the one hand, you have Pakistan imposing sharia > law, > > doing deals > > with the Taliban, teaching hatred in madrasas, > declaring > > jihad on the > > world and trying to kill innocent Sri Lankan > cricketers. On > > the other, > > you have the triumph of Indian secularism. > > > > The same people? > > > > Surely not. > > > > We are defined by our nationality. They choose to > define > > themselves by > > their religion. > > > > But it gets even more complicated. As you probably > know, > > Rahman was > > born Dilip Kumar. He converted to Islam when he was > 21. His > > religious > > preferences made no difference to his prospects. Even > now, > > his music > > cuts across all religious boundaries. He’s as much > at > > home with Sufi > > music as he is with > > bhajans. Nor does he have any problem with saying > ‘Vande > > Mataram’. > > > > Now, think of a similar situation in Pakistan. Can you > > conceive of a > > Pakistani composer who converted to Hinduism at the > age of > > 21 and > > still went on to become a national hero? Under sharia > law, > > they’d > > probably have to execute him. > > > > Resul Pookutty’s is an even more interesting case. > Until > > you realise > > that Malayalis tend to put an ‘e’ where the rest > of us > > would put an > > ‘a,’ (Ravi becomes Revi and sometimes the Gulf > becomes > > the Gelf), you > > cannot work out that his name derives from Rasool, a > fairly > > obviously > > Islamic name. > > > > But here’s the point: even when you point out to > people > > that Pookutty > > is in fact a Muslim, they don’t really care. It > makes no > > difference to > > them. He’s an authentic Indian hero, his religion is > > irrelevant. > > > > Can you imagine Pakistan being indifferent to a > man’s > > religion? Can > > you believe that Pakistanis would not know that one of > > their Oscar > > winners came from a religious minority? And would any > > Pakistani have > > dared bridge the religious divide in the manner Resul > did > > by referring > > to the primeval power of Om in his acceptance speech? > > > > The same people? > > > > Surely not. > > > > Most interesting of all is the case of Gulzar who many > > Indians believe > > is a Muslim. He is not. He is a Sikh. And his real > name is > > Sampooran > > Singh Kalra. > > > > So why does he have a Muslim name? > > > > It’s a good story and he told it on my TV show some > years > > ago. He was > > born in West Pakistan and came over the border during > the > > bloody days > > of Partition. He had seen so much hatred and religious > > violence on > > both sides, he said, that he was determined never to > lose > > himself to > > that kind of blind religious prejudice and fanaticism. > > > > Rather than blame Muslims for the violence inflicted > on his > > community > > — after all, Hindus and Sikhs behaved with equal > ferocity > > — he adopted > > a Muslim pen name to remind himself that his identity > was > > beyond > > religion. He still writes in Urdu and considers it > > irrelevant whether > > a person is a Sikh, a Muslim or a Hindu. > > > > Let’s forget about political correctness and come > clean: > > can you see > > such a thing happening in Pakistan? Can you actually > > conceive of a > > famous Pakistani Muslim who adopts a Hindu or Sikh > name out > > of choice > > to demonstrate the irrelevance of religion? > > > > My point, exactly. > > > > What all those misguided liberals who keep blathering > on > > about us > > being the same people forget is that in the 60-odd > years > > since > > Independence, our two nations have traversed very > different > > paths. > > > > Pakistan was founded on the basis of Islam. It still > > defines itself in > > terms of Islam. And over the next decade as it > destroys > > itself, it > > will be because of Islamic extremism. > > > > India was founded on the basis that religion had no > role in > > determining citizenship or nationhood. An Indian can > belong > > to any > > religion in the world and face no discrimination in > his > > rights as a > > citizen. > > > > It is nobody’s case that India is a perfect society > or > > that Muslims > > face no discrimination. But only a fool would deny > that in > > the last > > six decades, we have travelled a long way towards > religious > > equality. > > In the early days of independent India, a Yusuf Khan > had to > > call > > himself Dilip Kumar for fear of attracting religious > > prejudice. > > > > In today’s India, a Dilip Kumar can change his name > to > > A.R. Rahman and > > nobody really gives a damn either way. > > > > So think back to the events of the last few weeks. To > the > > murderous > > attack on innocent Sri Lankan cricketers by jihadi > fanatics > > in a > > society that is being buried by Islamic extremism. And > to > > the triumphs > > of Indian secularism. > > > > Same people? > > > > Don’t make me laugh. > > _________________________________________ > > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the > city. > > Critiques & Collaborations > > To subscribe: send an email to > > reader-list-request at sarai.net with subscribe in the > subject > > header. > > To unsubscribe: > > https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > > List archive: > > > <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> > > > > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to > reader-list-request at sarai.net with subscribe in the subject > header. > To unsubscribe: > https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: > <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> From parthaekka at gmail.com Thu Apr 2 20:26:59 2009 From: parthaekka at gmail.com (Partha Dasgupta) Date: Thu, 2 Apr 2009 20:26:59 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] reader-list Digest, Vol 68, Issue 76 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <32144e990904020756y4d60e493l144c69016f4cc3b4@mail.gmail.com> Dear Rajendra, Would appreciate it if you reply to the main mail instead of the debate - with regular responses is not possible to co-relate what is happening in the debate with your in-between responses to digest mails. Rgds, Partha ................. Partha Dasgupta +919811047132 On Thu, Apr 2, 2009 at 12:40 PM, wrote: > > Dear All, > it is really amusing to me when I raise the topic on reality check of > indian democracy, the so called intelligentia of the sari readers list is > deadly silence and not even one response to the thoughts put in the post. ! > > If I were to post some thoughts about how the communism and its leaders > are parasytes on labour class, living their life on the subscriptions paid > by the poor working class, there would be enough responses justifying the > leaders actions, if I were to talk about the rape of a young girl in Singur > by goon cadres, murders and grievious hurt inflicted on poor citizens to > deprive them of their right to property some more responses from "secular" > intellect. > > But if I were to talk of rule of laws that is being subverted in > democratic governance of the nation, the blame game starts of blaming the > major community and the politics of vote banks of hindus, very amusing > indeed. If lakhs of followers of one faith form a jammaath it is not > communal, if lakhs of a caste say, yadavs form a party and then its leader > loots the fodder funds, he is very secular, if he stops the peaceful Rath > yathra, thus causing riots, it is the responsibilty of the leader Advani.? > If I talk of judges who fudge their date of births and loot 600 crores > in official residence thru their sons on non-existing assets, if the judges > gulp down crores of PF money for their comforts, judiciary is still clean > and honest.? If the Law minister clandestinely operates to send the court > official to London to defreeze the account, we have a chief justice who has > no powers to take suo moto note of this dirty operation of kickbacks being > reverted to uncle Q.? The same law minister warns a convict and a friend of > terrorist to contest from his party or otherwise... the highest court > applies its mind.? > > A simple land dispute about a dilapidated structure on land belonging to > maharaja awauts judgement of judiciary for decades, if the structire not > even used for prayer becomes a masjid to evoke emotional respones, what sort > of calibre is these judges have who can not dispose off the cases and > adjudicate them at the earliest, so that the political parties do not use it > as vote gathering tool in democratic elections.? > > The chief justice finds technical loop holes to save the officer of the > election commission even when he loots crores of rupess in his wifes NGO, > and becomes a mole for the political party, and the contribution of > judiciary is immense in this type of actions where they do not seem to have > guts to talk of corruption in Election commission. EPIC or voters id cards > issue is biggest corruption scandal with use of IT and tendering process and > the EC has not even covered 50 percent of voters in nation. Shame on such > "autonomous" bodies who play games with common man to appease the political > parties.This can be verified easily by the serpentine ques for epic cards > even now, with tout charging 100 bucks for facilitation of epic cards in > metro cities. Bogus cards are another menace. > > Regards, > > Rajendra Uppinangadi, > rajen882uppinangadi at gmail.com > > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: reader-list-request at sarai.net > Date: Monday, March 30, 2009 11:35 am > Subject: reader-list Digest, Vol 68, Issue 76 > To: reader-list at sarai.net > > > Send reader-list mailing list submissions to > > reader-list at sarai.net > > > > To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit > > https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > > or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to > > reader-list-request at sarai.net > > > > You can reach the person managing the list at > > reader-list-owner at sarai.net > > > > When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific > > than "Re: Contents of reader-list digest..." > > > > > > Today's Topics: > > > > 1. Re: reader-list Digest, Vol 68, Issue 62Freedom and right to > > express at what cost to society.? (rajenradhika at vsnl.net) > > 2. Are News Channels emerging as arbitrators of the I-card > > discourse? (Taha Mehmood) > > 3. "Free, Free Binayak Sen!" -- Report on U.S. Actions in > > Solidarity with the Raipur Satyagraha (Anivar Aravind) > > 4. Re: The decline of the 'encounter death' (bipin) > > > > > > -------------------------------------------------------------------- > > -- > > > > Message: 1 > > Date: Sun, 29 Mar 2009 12:16:30 +0500 > > From: rajenradhika at vsnl.net > > Subject: Re: [Reader-list] reader-list Digest, Vol 68, Issue 62Freedom > > and right to express at what cost to society.? > > To: Rakesh Iyer > > Cc: sarai-list > > Message-ID: > > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii > > > > > > We the citizens of India gave ourselves the constitution of India > > which gave us rights to property, rights to life, rights to > > express individually and we live in the nation state as a social > > group of citizens and the state when it declared itself as a > > secular, it means in letter and spirit that the state does not > > uphold any faith, faith is strictly in the individuals prerogative > > to live life as per his personal belief, practice the faith he > > believes in, but th conflict comes in to play when the individual > > wants to impose his faith in his right to express on the the other > > individuals in the society. > > > > Right to property is upheld by the constitution in its articles but > > the governance by leaders elected by us, the citizens have > > systematically denied this right to property, right from > > Keshavanand Bharathi vs. Union of India case law judgement by > > amending the constitution and inserting such laws into schedules in > > the constitution which are beyond the perview of judicial system. > > > > Right to have faith as strictly personal domain is again violated > > by the Shah bano case law judgement by amending the laws to suit > > vote banks, faith is used as a tool to gather votes. > > We see today and in the last sixty two years of governance all > > the political parties either for a faith or against a faith, either > > for a community or against a community, either for few business > > houses or against a few more business houses. Is this the true > > facet of democratic governance.? > > > > True democratic rule in letter and spirit is when the elected > > who take oaths of office to govern, without fear or favour in just > > governance to all the citizens. But our leaders violate the oath > > taken the very day by imposing their whims and fancies on selective > > governance to citizens. Irrespective of the political parties the > > issues of good governance alays take the last priority, the > > community which voted them to power gains its pound of flesh and > > discrimination in governance starts immediately. > > > > As to the four pillars of democratic governance, let us examine > > the role of each of these in good governance or lack of it. > > Political leadership or legislative pillar as explained above is > > partisan and never does it rule with just and fair rule of law > > enshrined in constitution. Only this can explain the coterie > > culture of leaders as seen in every political parties, Sonia with > > her one faith folowers as her inner circle, Advani with core > > idealogists as his advisers, less said it is better. > > > > Now our babus, with weak and corrupt leadrs to pamper, the babus > > for a nexus to keep these leaders happy and in the meanwhile > > feather their nests. Thus deprived citizens are frustrated lot, so > > naxal movement and other form of demand for fair rule of law is > > evident in the nation, but naxals when they take law in to their > > own hands towards reform of the system, they are outlawed, > > naturally. So are the religious fanatics as they take violence as a > > method of correction of the system.Hence rama sena and such other > > outfits are illegal as the method is illegal . > > > > The next is judiciary which in normal rule of laws is most > > respected of all the pillars of democracy. But when the retired > > chief justice of the highest court admits that there are 10 percent > > corrupt in judiciary, and we see the case of a judge not being > > impeached for regional considerations by "national" party, a chief > > justice fudging his date of birth to be in seat for a few more > > months, a chief justice shielding his sons in his official > > residence to avail 600 crore loans in non-existent land assets, > > judges in PF scams encashing employees' provident funds, judge > > keeping the funds in his personal account being the receiver of the > > court, are all indications of decay in judicial process. The chief > > justice who can not act when his judicial officer goes to London to > > release 21 crore to uncle Q with begging the crown prosecutors' > > office, but instead gets the promotion, and scam money reaches the > > culprit with the knowledge of the law minister and the beneficiary > > pretends ignora > > nce of the loot, what more certification is needed of the falling > > standards of judicial system other than untold delays and > > subversion of the system.? The lawyers playing with the process, > > bribing the witness, duress to witness is also not uncommon. > > > > The last of the pillars, the media, has its own fair share of > > corrupt men and women in journalism. The poll surveys, reportage of > > the events have ,ade the citizens realise that all the news are not > > news but only views of such blacksheep in journalism. As to rewards > > and awards, what service these blacksheep of media anchors served > > the society is big question mark as they seem to be more involved > > in newly evolved moral games of life styles and reportage of > > sensation rather that relevance to the society with trp as only > > driving forces. > > > > Unless the society and citizens understand and inculcate what is > > right and correct way of life irrespective of faith, ( as all > > faiths are only way of life to live life ethically and morally > > correct.) and what is wrong in societal life, the democratic rule > > of laws and god governance will be a mirage. > > > > Regards, > > > > Rajendra Uppinangadi, > > rajen882uppinangad at gmail.com. > > > > PS: Author is not member to the list if the moderator/ > > administrator feels fit may invite the author to be its member of > > the list, any way freedom of expression for author is not a right > > of obsession to rule other thoughts but to exchange all thoughts > > and take the best for the life. > > ----- Original Message ----- > > From: Rakesh Iyer > > Date: Wednesday, March 25, 2009 3:43 pm > > Subject: Re: [Reader-list] reader-list Digest, Vol 68,Issue > > 62Freedom and right to express at what cost to society.? > > To: bipin > > Cc: rajenradhika at vsnl.net, sarai-list > > > > > Dear all > > > > > > I can understand the point that freedom of expression is more > > > important than > > > peace, for after all any peace without any freedom of expression > > is > > > only the > > > lull before the storm waiting to happen. Plus of course, it > > hampers > > > one of > > > the basic human rights of citizens. > > > > > > However, the other question which is confusing my mind, as > > pointed > > > out in > > > the article, is regarding nation-states providing rights to > > > citizens. I > > > don't know much on this, so it would be good if we can discuss on > > > whetherit's nation-states which act as the agencies to provide > > > rights (and hence > > > without them people can't ask for rights), or is it that rights > > are > > > inherentirrespective of whether nation-states exist or not. > > > > > > Regards > > > > > > Rakesh > > > > > > > > > ------------------------------ > > > > Message: 2 > > Date: Sun, 29 Mar 2009 18:37:39 +0100 > > From: Taha Mehmood <2tahamehmood at googlemail.com> > > Subject: [Reader-list] Are News Channels emerging as arbitrators of > > the I-card discourse? > > To: reader-list > > Message-ID: > > <65be9bf40903291037o454b506v55465ecbba234004 at mail.gmail.com> > > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 > > > > Dear all > > > > CNN IBN's Kinnari Patel reports about a village called Nargol in > > Gujaratwhere it is mandatory for residents to have an I-card. All > > the villagers > > have shared their fingerprints with the local police, she ends her > > report by > > suggesting that, 'Nargol's is probably one story Gujarat and the > > rest of the > > country should take lessons from.'. Interestingly in another > > version of the > > same story, CNN IBN's Urunuday Majumdar suggests that, this experiment > > should be 'emulated' by the rest of india. > > > > Regards > > > > Taha > > > > Please follow the links below to check out the stories- > > > > http://ibnlive.in.com/videos/70576/crime-control-you-need-an-icard- > > to-enter-this-village.html > > > > http://ibnlive.in.com/news/crime-control-you-need-an-icard-to-enter- > > this-village/70576-3.html > > > > > > ------------------------------ > > > > Message: 3 > > Date: Mon, 30 Mar 2009 07:50:28 +0530 > > From: Anivar Aravind > > Subject: [Reader-list] "Free, Free Binayak Sen!" -- Report on U.S. > > Actions in Solidarity with the Raipur Satyagraha > > To: Greenyouth , Reader List > > , " > fourth-estate-critique at googlegroups.com" > > > > Message-ID: > > <35f96d470903291920m9ee9220wf85f3eec8ddea4a9 at mail.gmail.com> > > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 > > > > ---------- Forwarded message -------- > > [Thanks to all those who participated in Friday's solidarity action > > with the > > Raipur Satyagraha. Below is a report on the actions held in three > > differentcities in the US. Please forward to other groups.] > > http://www.binayaksen.net/2009/03/free-free-binayak-sen-report-on- > > us-protests/ > > ** > > *"Free, Free Binayak Sen!" * > > *50 international groups organize support in the USA for the Raipur > > Satyagraha **in India* > > *Simultaneous protests held in 3 US cities* > > > > * San > > Francisco, CA, > > New York, NY and Washington DC, 28 March, 2009:* Verve and vigor > > marked the > > simultaneous protests held at the Indian embassy and consulates in > > Washington DC, New York City and San Francisco on March 27th, > > demanding the > > immediate release of Dr. Binayak Sen, an end to the repressive > > ChhattisgarhSpecial People's Security Act (CSPSA) and disbanding of > > the state-sponsored > > militia, Salwa Judum. Activists from Association for India's > > Development(AID), Friends of South Asia (FOSA), South Asia > > Solidarity Initiative > > (SASI), International League of People's Struggles, students and > > facultyfrom local universities participated in these protests, > > coinciding with the > > *Raipur Satyagraha* *, > > *theongoing mass civil disobedience action in the city of Raipur > > where Dr. Sen > > is incarcerated. Over 50 groups from the US, UK and Canada have > > written to > > the Chhattisgarh government and offered their support to the Raipur > > Satyagraha, and nearly 600 individual faxes have also been sent to the > > Chhattisgarh government from around the world. > > > > The22-month > long, unjustifiable detention of Dr. Binayak > > Senhas become a > > rallying point for human rights and peace and justice groups in > > India and internationally. A pediatrician by training who chose to > > workwith the marginalized and malnourished people in remote > > villages of > > Chhattisgarh in central India, Dr. Binayak Sen has been recognized > > for his > > contributions to public health and human rights with the Paul Harrison > > award< > http://home.cmcvellore.ac.in/NewsLine/PAUL%20HARRISON%20AWARD%202004%20-%20Citation.pdf > >by > > his alma mater, the Christian Medical College, Vellore, the R.R. > > Keithan gold > > medal< > http://www.esocialsciences.com/News/NewsDetails.asp?Newsid=330&newstype=1>fromthe > Indian Academy of Social Sciences, and the Jonathan > > Mann Award by the > > GlobalHealth Council in Washington DC. As Vice-president of > > People's Union for > > Civil Liberties (PUCL), Dr Binayak Sen was > > instrumental in bringing to light the excesses of the Chhattisgarh > > government's security apparatus, notably the Salwa Judum, a state- > > sponsoredmilitia which has wreaked havoc in the villages of south > > Bastar district. > > Activists and intellectuals, including Noam Chomsky, Arundhati Roy, > > GeorgeGalloway, Mahashweta Devi, over 135 faculty members and 22 > > nobel laureates > > from around the world have joined in urging the Indian government > > to free > > Dr. Binayak Sen and stop the harassment of human rights activists. > > > > > Anu Mandavilli, > > with Friends > > of South Asia (FOSA), reminded > > theprotestors in San Francisco, that the one-year long trial of Dr. > > Sen, which > > included testimonies from over 50 government witnesses, has not > > produced a > > shred of evidence or a single witness who could corroborate the > > Government'sclaim that Dr. Sen engaged in seditious activities. > > "Yet, the courts have > > denied Dr. Sen's bail application three times. It is interesting > > to note > > that men from Shri Ram Sene, who beat up women in Mangalore pubs in > > front of > > cameras, were released on bail within 6 hours. Whereas Dr. Sen, > > with an > > impeccable 25-year record of public service, and no evidence > > against him, > > has been in jail for 22 months now." > > > > Angana > > Chatterji,associate professor, California Institute of Integral > > Studies, cited the > > harassment of other human rights defenders in Orissa and Kashmir, > > statingthat Dr. Sen's case represents an alarming trend where the > > Indian state is > > using draconian laws to silence those who oppose state repression. > > Indeed,Dr. Sen is only the most prominent among numerous human > > rights defenders and > > public intellectuals who languish in Indian jails because they > > dared to > > speak truth to power. > > > > > > < > http://docs.google.com/File?id=ddp3w2ff_43gwnvb6pk_b>InNew York, activists > gathered outside the Indian consulate to read Dr. Sen's > > New Year Letter from jail, recite poems from around the world in > > support of > > Dr. Sen, and sing songs of collective action. Jinee Lokaneeta of > > the South > > Asia Solidarity Initiative (SASI), and on the faculty at Drew > > University,drew attention to the fact that notwithstanding the > > floundering case against > > Dr. Sen, the government has recently produced an additional > > supplementarychargesheet against him. "By repeatedly denying Dr. > > Sen's bail application, > > and purposefully prolonging a meaningless trial, the state is > > ensuring that > > Dr. Sen stays in prison a long time, even if charges against him > > are never > > proved." > > > > Murli Natrajan, also of SASI and a faculty member at William Paterson > > University, added, "The laws used by the state to arrest Dr. Sen > > are truly > > draconian. These are the latest in the tradition of other harsh > > laws, such > > as MISA, TADA and POTA, each one of which had to be abandoned after > > beingdeclared unconstitutional by the highest judicial authorities, > > and after > > gross misuse by the state's security apparatus became apparent." > > > > Somu Kumar, > > with Association > > for India's Development (AID), and one > > of the > > organizers of the protest at the Indian embassy in Washington DC, > > highlighted that these protests are not limited to demanding the human > > rights of just one inidividual, Dr. Binayak Sen, but are in > > opposition to a > > system which criminalizes those who point out its shortcomings. > > "At this > > point, Dr. Sen is a symbol of many other ongoing struggles in > > India--especially those of the *adivasis*, the indigenous > > inhabitants of the > > mineral rich areas, who are resisting displacement by large mining > > companies, and whose rights Dr. Sen was championing. These > > protests are > > also to demand consideration for the human rights of the *adivasis *of > > Chhattisgarh, more than 100,000 of who are officially internally > > displacedpeople due to the actions of the state-sponsored Salwa > > Judum." > > < > http://docs.google.com/File?id=ddp3w2ff_45fpt6n8fs_b> < > http://docs.google.com/File?id=ddp3w2ff_45fpt6n8fs_b>< > http://docs.google.com/File?id=ddp3w2ff_44fgp6h9f8_b> > > A letter > > signed by > > more than 50 international peace and justice > > groups > Chapters/Maryland/campaign/Binayak_Sen_Org_Endorsement.pdf>,and a > > list of individuals who have faxed > > letters > support-of-the-raipur-satyagraha-for-release-of-dr-binayak-sen/>to > > the Chhattisgarh and central governments, were submitted to the Indian > > consular staff at each city who have guaranteed their delivery to > > the desks > > of the Chief Minister of Chhattisgarh, the President and Prime > > Minister of > > India, and the Chairperson of the National Human Rights Commission. > > Someactivists voiced their disappointment that the government of > > India had yet > > to acknowledge any of their previous submissions made over the > > course of the > > last year. "In spite of sending several hundred faxes, multiple > > letters,and individual emails to various officials, we have yet to > > hear back from a > > single government official that our letters have been received and > > read,leave alone considered," said Srividhya Venkataraman, with AID- > > Berkeley.She added, "The Indian government has made it a priority > > to reach out to > > NRIs. But if we, with multiple channels of communication available > > to us, > > have such difficulty in getting our voice heard, how must the Indian > > government respond to the concerns of an *adivasi *located in a remote > > village in Bastar!" > > > > Is anyone listening? > > ------------------------------ > > *For more information, see the following*: > > > > · Information on the Raipur Satyagraha for the Release of Dr. > > Binayak Sen > > is available here: http://raipursatyagraha.wordpress.com > > > > · More information on Dr. Binayak Sen and his case: > > > > o For a detailed analysis of the state’s case against Dr. Sen, read > > the3-part series in Indian Express by Vinay Sitapati: > > http://www.binayaksen.net/2009/01/indian-express-series-on-binayak- > > sen/ > > o A timeline of Binayak Sen’s case is available here: > > http://www.binayaksen.net/2009/01/timeline-of-events-in-the-strange- > > case-of-dr-binayak-sen/ > > > > o A compilation of news articles on Dr. Sen can be found at > > www.binayaksen.net , www.freebinayaksen.org and > > http://www.aidboston.org/FreeBinayakSen/media.htm > > > > · On Chhattisgarh Special Public Security Act, 2005: > > > > o The text of the law and its analysis by People’s Union for > > DemocraticRights can be found here: > > http://cpjc.wordpress.com/chhattisgarh-special-public-security-act/ > > > > o A law and its victim, Ajoy Ashirwad Mahaprashasta, Frontline, Oct- > > Nov 2008 > > http://www.hinduonnet.com/fline/fl2522/stories/20081107252212400.htm > > > > o Caught between Naxals and police, Indian Express, June 11, 2008 > > > http://in.news.yahoo.com/indianexpress/20080611/r_t_ie_nl_general/tnl-caught-between-naxals-and-police-aaaedd4_1.html > > > > · Fact-finding reports on Salwa Judum can be obtained from the > > website for > > the Campaign for Peace and Justice in Chhattisgarh, > > http://cpjc.wordpress.com/reports-by-fact-finding-teams-on-salwa- > > judum/ > > · Letter to the Chhattisgarh government by over 50 international > > peace and > > justice groups can be found here: > > http://docs.aidindia.org/Documents/AID- > > Chapters/Maryland/campaign/Binayak_Sen_Org_Endorsement.pdf > > > > > > ------------------------------ > > *Photo Credits*: Pei Wu, Sangay Mishra, Somu Kumar and Balaji > > Narasimhan*For more information*, contact: > > Shalini Gera, mail at friendsofsouthasia.org > > Murli Natrajan, mnatrajan at yahoo.com > > > > > > > > > > -- > > Any responsible politician should be encouraging a home grown Free > > Softwareindustry because it creates the basis for future jobs. > > Learning Windows is > > like learning to eat every meal at McDonalds. > > > > > > ------------------------------ > > > > Message: 4 > > Date: Mon, 30 Mar 2009 11:34:27 +0530 > > From: bipin > > Subject: [Reader-list] Re: The decline of the 'encounter death' > > To: Taha Mehmood <2tahamehmood at googlemail.com> > > Cc: sarai-list > > Message-ID: <002101c9b0fd$62d23e90$0201a8c0 at limo> > > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 > > > > Dear Taha, > > > > Its question of common sense and no study is required. The man who > > accused remains in custody for long time and waiting for their > > hearing in court to come. During the time they are mentally down or > > may go under depression, which effects their health heavily. Police > > strictness to get truth adds fuel to their mental/physical illness > > position. If he proved innocent after pretty long time (say 8/10 > > years) but mentally he would be tired and his health effected > > heavily. > > > > > > > > No doubt, there might be cases of police atrocities, but looking to > > the cases comes with police and court, this figure is negligible. > > Also, the figure appear may be after studies, not necessarily true. > > Since they just count death not only at jail, but death occur at > > home, but case going on can also be counted. They are no > > clarification in their data. > > > > > > > > For each and every thing one should not see in the eye research or > > studies. Even thing I have noticed that after long research, data > > achieved can also be easily understood by common sense. > > > > > > > > > > thanks > > > > Bipin > > > > > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > From: Taha Mehmood > > To: bipin > > Sent: Monday, March 30, 2009 7:29 AM > > Subject: Re: [Reader-list] The decline of the 'encounter death' > > > > > > Dear Bipin > > > > Please tell me what has our judicial system got to do with > > custodial deaths? What is the co-relationship between delay in > > court cases and out dated laws and people dying under police > > custody? Are there any studies or any figures that you would wish > > to quote here or are we to believe your seemingly outrageous claims > > on the basis of your word only? Again a primary reading of your > > post might lead us to assume that ALL custodial deaths involve > > people who are 'criminals', is that the case? If so then could you > > please substantiate your argument. > > > > Regards > > > > Taha > > > > > > > > > > > > ------------------------------ > > > > _______________________________________________ > > reader-list mailing list > > reader-list at sarai.net > > https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > > > > > > End of reader-list Digest, Vol 68, Issue 76 > > ******************************************* > > > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > subscribe in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> From naeem.mohaiemen at gmail.com Fri Apr 3 10:15:24 2009 From: naeem.mohaiemen at gmail.com (Naeem Mohaiemen) Date: Fri, 3 Apr 2009 10:15:24 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] 2 Kolkata Shows This Weekend Message-ID: If you are in Kolkata, please do check out these two weekend openings. Friday, 6-8 pm Emami Chisel 687 Anandapur E.M Bypass (Emami Tower, next to Saatchi Tower, near Ruby Hospital) Artists: Sumedh Rajendran, Masooma Syed, Naeem Mohaiemen, Remen Chopra, Vivan Sunderam, Minal Damani, Subba Ghose, Pushpamala N, Maneswar Brahma, Vibha Galhotra, Ritendra Roy, Indrani Nayar Gall, Abesh Bivore Mitra, Prajakta Potnis, Rima Kundu, Debashish Barui, Surekha, Amitava Battacharya, Soma Chakraborty, Mrinmoy Debbarma, Binu Baskar, Anindita Dutta, Veer Munshi, Helen, Bill Davis, Katherine Jones, Sharmila Samant, Tushar Joag, Tapati Chowdhury, Savi Savarkar, Prasanta Sahu, Stefan Roemer, Biswaranjan Kar Tell-Tale: Fiction, Falsehood & Fact Saturday, 6-8 pm Experimenter 2/1 HIndustan Road (Kanishka's sari store, also near ICICI Bank) Artists: Abhishek Hazra, Adip Dutta ,Archana Hande ,Debnath Basu and Paula Sengupta. From asitredsalute at gmail.com Fri Apr 3 11:50:41 2009 From: asitredsalute at gmail.com (Asit asitreds) Date: Fri, 3 Apr 2009 11:50:41 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] secularism In-Reply-To: <004301c9b358$fc0ca1b0$0201a8c0@limo> References: <004301c9b358$fc0ca1b0$0201a8c0@limo> Message-ID: secularism means that religion is a private affair the state should not take religeous stand or favour any religion and politcs should not be based on religion asit On 4/2/09, bipin wrote: > > Dear All, > > before further discussions/reply I invite everyone to give definition of > SECULARISM in your point of view. > > thanks > BIPIN > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > subscribe in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> From ravikant at sarai.net Fri Apr 3 12:16:29 2009 From: ravikant at sarai.net (Ravikant) Date: Fri, 3 Apr 2009 12:16:29 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Shyam Benegal and Anurag Kashyap @ Habitat Message-ID: <200904031216.30580.ravikant@sarai.net> India Habitat Centre cordially invites you to the 3rd Turning Point interaction April 10 at 7:00pm Amaltas Hall,Habitat World Join us as renowned film director Shyam Benegal and Anurag Kashyap discuss the watershed landmarks of Indian Cinema. Moderated by Ranjani Mazumdar Associate Professor of Cinema Studies School of Arts & Aesthetics JNU Turning Point A series that looks at landmark decisions,creative works,inventions,endeavours and events that have made a definitive difference. India Habitat Centre Lodhi Road Please join us for tea at 6.15pm From rajenradhika at vsnl.net Fri Apr 3 13:02:55 2009 From: rajenradhika at vsnl.net (rajenradhika at vsnl.net) Date: Fri, 03 Apr 2009 12:32:55 +0500 Subject: [Reader-list] reader-list Digest, Vol 68, Issue 76 In-Reply-To: <32144e990904020756y4d60e493l144c69016f4cc3b4@mail.gmail.com> References: <32144e990904020756y4d60e493l144c69016f4cc3b4@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: Sir, my heartfelt thanks for your suggestion, but the fact is I am not member of the list, inspite of request to be invited as member, because, may be I do not "belong" to any camp, viz: communists, secularists or communalists as the list seem to be having certain preference in numbers to have them on the list.? More over, Rajen radhika is the reciepient of the digest, I read it and at times feel compelled to respond when the issues at debate get bogged down to one issue of "kashmor" and at times in issus of religion and faiths. Debates when get sidetracked into something where nothing concrete is achievable remain just blank noise.! In democratic life, the truth of the matter is the faith is totally of personal domain, in society all citizens must get good governance irrespective of their faith, region or caste. The faiking system can change only when citizens take to change not otherwise. If citizens understand that they have duties as well when they seek personal rights in the society, the society will be tolerent of the rights of the individuals and becomes tolerent society with individuals honouring the rights of other citizens, as a matter of duty, thus even individuals become tolerent of others rights in society. Regards. Rajendra Uppinangadi rajen882uppinangadi at gmail.com; 98450 27103 ----- Original Message ----- From: Partha Dasgupta Date: Thursday, April 2, 2009 8:27 pm Subject: Re: [Reader-list] reader-list Digest, Vol 68, Issue 76 To: rajenradhika at vsnl.net Cc: reader-list at sarai.net > Dear Rajendra, > > Would appreciate it if you reply to the main mail instead of the > debate - > with regular responses is not possible to co-relate what is > happening in the > debate with your in-between responses to digest mails. > > Rgds, Partha > ................. > Partha Dasgupta > +919811047132 > > > On Thu, Apr 2, 2009 at 12:40 PM, wrote: > > > > > Dear All, > > it is really amusing to me when I raise the topic on reality > check of > > indian democracy, the so called intelligentia of the sari readers > list is > > deadly silence and not even one response to the thoughts put in > the post. ! > > > > If I were to post some thoughts about how the communism and its > leaders> are parasytes on labour class, living their life on the > subscriptions paid > > by the poor working class, there would be enough responses > justifying the > > leaders actions, if I were to talk about the rape of a young girl > in Singur > > by goon cadres, murders and grievious hurt inflicted on poor > citizens to > > deprive them of their right to property some more responses from > "secular"> intellect. > > > > But if I were to talk of rule of laws that is being subverted in > > democratic governance of the nation, the blame game starts of > blaming the > > major community and the politics of vote banks of hindus, very > amusing> indeed. If lakhs of followers of one faith form a jammaath > it is not > > communal, if lakhs of a caste say, yadavs form a party and then > its leader > > loots the fodder funds, he is very secular, if he stops the > peaceful Rath > > yathra, thus causing riots, it is the responsibilty of the leader > Advani.?> If I talk of judges who fudge their date of births and > loot 600 crores > > in official residence thru their sons on non-existing assets, if > the judges > > gulp down crores of PF money for their comforts, judiciary is > still clean > > and honest.? If the Law minister clandestinely operates to send > the court > > official to London to defreeze the account, we have a chief > justice who has > > no powers to take suo moto note of this dirty operation of > kickbacks being > > reverted to uncle Q.? The same law minister warns a convict and a > friend of > > terrorist to contest from his party or otherwise... the highest > court> applies its mind.? > > > > A simple land dispute about a dilapidated structure on land > belonging to > > maharaja awauts judgement of judiciary for decades, if the > structire not > > even used for prayer becomes a masjid to evoke emotional > respones, what sort > > of calibre is these judges have who can not dispose off the cases > and> adjudicate them at the earliest, so that the political parties > do not use it > > as vote gathering tool in democratic elections.? > > > > The chief justice finds technical loop holes to save the officer > of the > > election commission even when he loots crores of rupess in his > wifes NGO, > > and becomes a mole for the political party, and the contribution of > > judiciary is immense in this type of actions where they do not > seem to have > > guts to talk of corruption in Election commission. EPIC or voters > id cards > > issue is biggest corruption scandal with use of IT and tendering > process and > > the EC has not even covered 50 percent of voters in nation. Shame > on such > > "autonomous" bodies who play games with common man to appease the > political> parties.This can be verified easily by the serpentine > ques for epic cards > > even now, with tout charging 100 bucks for facilitation of epic > cards in > > metro cities. Bogus cards are another menace. > > > > Regards, > > > > Rajendra Uppinangadi, > > rajen882uppinangadi at gmail.com > > > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > From: reader-list-request at sarai.net > > Date: Monday, March 30, 2009 11:35 am > > Subject: reader-list Digest, Vol 68, Issue 76 > > To: reader-list at sarai.net > > > > > Send reader-list mailing list submissions to > > > reader-list at sarai.net > > > > > > To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit > > > https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > > > or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to > > > reader-list-request at sarai.net > > > > > > You can reach the person managing the list at > > > reader-list-owner at sarai.net > > > > > > When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more > specific> > than "Re: Contents of reader-list digest..." > > > > > > > > > Today's Topics: > > > > > > 1. Re: reader-list Digest, Vol 68, Issue 62Freedom and > right to > > > express at what cost to society.? (rajenradhika at vsnl.net) > > > 2. Are News Channels emerging as arbitrators of the I-card > > > discourse? (Taha Mehmood) > > > 3. "Free, Free Binayak Sen!" -- Report on U.S. Actions in > > > Solidarity with the Raipur Satyagraha (Anivar Aravind) > > > 4. Re: The decline of the 'encounter death' (bipin) > > > > > > > > > ---------------------------------------------------------------- > ---- > > > -- > > > > > > Message: 1 > > > Date: Sun, 29 Mar 2009 12:16:30 +0500 > > > From: rajenradhika at vsnl.net > > > Subject: Re: [Reader-list] reader-list Digest, Vol 68, Issue > 62Freedom> > and right to express at what cost to society.? > > > To: Rakesh Iyer > > > Cc: sarai-list > > > Message-ID: > > > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii > > > > > > > > > We the citizens of India gave ourselves the constitution of India > > > which gave us rights to property, rights to life, rights to > > > express individually and we live in the nation state as a social > > > group of citizens and the state when it declared itself as a > > > secular, it means in letter and spirit that the state does not > > > uphold any faith, faith is strictly in the individuals prerogative > > > to live life as per his personal belief, practice the faith he > > > believes in, but th conflict comes in to play when the individual > > > wants to impose his faith in his right to express on the the other > > > individuals in the society. > > > > > > Right to property is upheld by the constitution in its articles > but> > the governance by leaders elected by us, the citizens have > > > systematically denied this right to property, right from > > > Keshavanand Bharathi vs. Union of India case law judgement by > > > amending the constitution and inserting such laws into > schedules in > > > the constitution which are beyond the perview of judicial system. > > > > > > Right to have faith as strictly personal domain is again violated > > > by the Shah bano case law judgement by amending the laws to suit > > > vote banks, faith is used as a tool to gather votes. > > > We see today and in the last sixty two years of governance all > > > the political parties either for a faith or against a faith, > either> > for a community or against a community, either for few > business> > houses or against a few more business houses. Is this > the true > > > facet of democratic governance.? > > > > > > True democratic rule in letter and spirit is when the elected > > > who take oaths of office to govern, without fear or favour in just > > > governance to all the citizens. But our leaders violate the oath > > > taken the very day by imposing their whims and fancies on > selective> > governance to citizens. Irrespective of the political > parties the > > > issues of good governance alays take the last priority, the > > > community which voted them to power gains its pound of flesh and > > > discrimination in governance starts immediately. > > > > > > As to the four pillars of democratic governance, let us examine > > > the role of each of these in good governance or lack of it. > > > Political leadership or legislative pillar as explained above is > > > partisan and never does it rule with just and fair rule of law > > > enshrined in constitution. Only this can explain the coterie > > > culture of leaders as seen in every political parties, Sonia with > > > her one faith folowers as her inner circle, Advani with core > > > idealogists as his advisers, less said it is better. > > > > > > Now our babus, with weak and corrupt leadrs to pamper, the babus > > > for a nexus to keep these leaders happy and in the meanwhile > > > feather their nests. Thus deprived citizens are frustrated lot, so > > > naxal movement and other form of demand for fair rule of law is > > > evident in the nation, but naxals when they take law in to their > > > own hands towards reform of the system, they are outlawed, > > > naturally. So are the religious fanatics as they take violence > as a > > > method of correction of the system.Hence rama sena and such other > > > outfits are illegal as the method is illegal . > > > > > > The next is judiciary which in normal rule of laws is most > > > respected of all the pillars of democracy. But when the retired > > > chief justice of the highest court admits that there are 10 > percent> > corrupt in judiciary, and we see the case of a judge not > being> > impeached for regional considerations by "national" party, > a chief > > > justice fudging his date of birth to be in seat for a few more > > > months, a chief justice shielding his sons in his official > > > residence to avail 600 crore loans in non-existent land assets, > > > judges in PF scams encashing employees' provident funds, judge > > > keeping the funds in his personal account being the receiver of > the> > court, are all indications of decay in judicial process. The > chief> > justice who can not act when his judicial officer goes to > London to > > > release 21 crore to uncle Q with begging the crown prosecutors' > > > office, but instead gets the promotion, and scam money reaches the > > > culprit with the knowledge of the law minister and the beneficiary > > > pretends ignora > > > nce of the loot, what more certification is needed of the falling > > > standards of judicial system other than untold delays and > > > subversion of the system.? The lawyers playing with the process, > > > bribing the witness, duress to witness is also not uncommon. > > > > > > The last of the pillars, the media, has its own fair share of > > > corrupt men and women in journalism. The poll surveys, > reportage of > > > the events have ,ade the citizens realise that all the news are > not> > news but only views of such blacksheep in journalism. As to > rewards> > and awards, what service these blacksheep of media > anchors served > > > the society is big question mark as they seem to be more involved > > > in newly evolved moral games of life styles and reportage of > > > sensation rather that relevance to the society with trp as only > > > driving forces. > > > > > > Unless the society and citizens understand and inculcate what is > > > right and correct way of life irrespective of faith, ( as all > > > faiths are only way of life to live life ethically and morally > > > correct.) and what is wrong in societal life, the democratic rule > > > of laws and god governance will be a mirage. > > > > > > Regards, > > > > > > Rajendra Uppinangadi, > > > rajen882uppinangad at gmail.com. > > > > > > PS: Author is not member to the list if the moderator/ > > > administrator feels fit may invite the author to be its member of > > > the list, any way freedom of expression for author is not a right > > > of obsession to rule other thoughts but to exchange all thoughts > > > and take the best for the life. > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > > From: Rakesh Iyer > > > Date: Wednesday, March 25, 2009 3:43 pm > > > Subject: Re: [Reader-list] reader-list Digest, Vol 68,Issue > > > 62Freedom and right to express at what cost to society.? > > > To: bipin > > > Cc: rajenradhika at vsnl.net, sarai-list > > > > > > > Dear all > > > > > > > > I can understand the point that freedom of expression is more > > > > important than > > > > peace, for after all any peace without any freedom of expression > > > is > > > > only the > > > > lull before the storm waiting to happen. Plus of course, it > > > hampers > > > > one of > > > > the basic human rights of citizens. > > > > > > > > However, the other question which is confusing my mind, as > > > pointed > > > > out in > > > > the article, is regarding nation-states providing rights to > > > > citizens. I > > > > don't know much on this, so it would be good if we can > discuss on > > > > whetherit's nation-states which act as the agencies to provide > > > > rights (and hence > > > > without them people can't ask for rights), or is it that rights > > > are > > > > inherentirrespective of whether nation-states exist or not. > > > > > > > > Regards > > > > > > > > Rakesh > > > > > > > > > > > > > ------------------------------ > > > > > > Message: 2 > > > Date: Sun, 29 Mar 2009 18:37:39 +0100 > > > From: Taha Mehmood <2tahamehmood at googlemail.com> > > > Subject: [Reader-list] Are News Channels emerging as > arbitrators of > > > the I-card discourse? > > > To: reader-list > > > Message-ID: > > > <65be9bf40903291037o454b506v55465ecbba234004 at mail.gmail.com> > > > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 > > > > > > Dear all > > > > > > CNN IBN's Kinnari Patel reports about a village called Nargol in > > > Gujaratwhere it is mandatory for residents to have an I-card. All > > > the villagers > > > have shared their fingerprints with the local police, she ends her > > > report by > > > suggesting that, 'Nargol's is probably one story Gujarat and the > > > rest of the > > > country should take lessons from.'. Interestingly in another > > > version of the > > > same story, CNN IBN's Urunuday Majumdar suggests that, this > experiment> > should be 'emulated' by the rest of india. > > > > > > Regards > > > > > > Taha > > > > > > Please follow the links below to check out the stories- > > > > > > http://ibnlive.in.com/videos/70576/crime-control-you-need-an- > icard- > > > to-enter-this-village.html > > > > > > http://ibnlive.in.com/news/crime-control-you-need-an-icard-to- > enter- > > > this-village/70576-3.html > > > > > > > > > ------------------------------ > > > > > > Message: 3 > > > Date: Mon, 30 Mar 2009 07:50:28 +0530 > > > From: Anivar Aravind > > > Subject: [Reader-list] "Free, Free Binayak Sen!" -- Report on U.S. > > > Actions in Solidarity with the Raipur Satyagraha > > > To: Greenyouth , Reader List > > > , " > > fourth-estate-critique at googlegroups.com" > > > > > > Message-ID: > > > <35f96d470903291920m9ee9220wf85f3eec8ddea4a9 at mail.gmail.com> > > > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 > > > > > > ---------- Forwarded message -------- > > > [Thanks to all those who participated in Friday's solidarity > action> > with the > > > Raipur Satyagraha. Below is a report on the actions held in three > > > differentcities in the US. Please forward to other groups.] > > > http://www.binayaksen.net/2009/03/free-free-binayak-sen-report- > on- > > > us-protests/ > > > ** > > > *"Free, Free Binayak Sen!" * > > > *50 international groups organize support in the USA for the > Raipur> > Satyagraha **in India* > > > *Simultaneous protests held in 3 US cities* > > > > > > * San > > > Francisco, CA, > > > New York, NY and Washington DC, 28 March, 2009:* Verve and vigor > > > marked the > > > simultaneous protests held at the Indian embassy and consulates in > > > Washington DC, New York City and San Francisco on March 27th, > > > demanding the > > > immediate release of Dr. Binayak Sen, an end to the repressive > > > ChhattisgarhSpecial People's Security Act (CSPSA) and > disbanding of > > > the state-sponsored > > > militia, Salwa Judum. Activists from Association for India's > > > Development(AID), Friends of South Asia (FOSA), South Asia > > > Solidarity Initiative > > > (SASI), International League of People's Struggles, students and > > > facultyfrom local universities participated in these protests, > > > coinciding with the > > > *Raipur Satyagraha* *, > > > *theongoing mass civil disobedience action in the city of Raipur > > > where Dr. Sen > > > is incarcerated. Over 50 groups from the US, UK and Canada have > > > written to > > > the Chhattisgarh government and offered their support to the > Raipur> > Satyagraha, and nearly 600 individual faxes have also > been sent to the > > > Chhattisgarh government from around the world. > > > > > > > The22-month > > long, unjustifiable detention of Dr. Binayak > > > Senhas become a > > > rallying point for human rights and peace and justice groups in > > > India and internationally. A pediatrician by training who > chose to > > > workwith the marginalized and malnourished people in remote > > > villages of > > > Chhattisgarh in central India, Dr. Binayak Sen has been recognized > > > for his > > > contributions to public health and human rights with the Paul > Harrison> > award< > > > http://home.cmcvellore.ac.in/NewsLine/PAUL%20HARRISON%20AWARD%202004%20-%20Citation.pdf > > >by > > > his alma mater, the Christian Medical College, Vellore, the R.R. > > > Keithan gold > > > medal< > > > http://www.esocialsciences.com/News/NewsDetails.asp?Newsid=330&newstype=1>fromthe> Indian Academy of Social Sciences, and the Jonathan > > > Mann Award by the > > > GlobalHealth Council in Washington DC. As Vice-president of > > > People's Union for > > > Civil Liberties (PUCL), Dr Binayak Sen was > > > instrumental in bringing to light the excesses of the Chhattisgarh > > > government's security apparatus, notably the Salwa Judum, a > state- > > > sponsoredmilitia which has wreaked havoc in the villages of south > > > Bastar district. > > > Activists and intellectuals, including Noam Chomsky, Arundhati > Roy,> > GeorgeGalloway, Mahashweta Devi, over 135 faculty members > and 22 > > > nobel laureates > > > from around the world have joined in urging the Indian government > > > to free > > > Dr. Binayak Sen and stop the harassment of human rights activists. > > > > > > > > Anu Mandavilli, > > > with Friends > > > of South Asia (FOSA), > reminded> > theprotestors in San Francisco, that the one-year long > trial of Dr. > > > Sen, which > > > included testimonies from over 50 government witnesses, has not > > > produced a > > > shred of evidence or a single witness who could corroborate the > > > Government'sclaim that Dr. Sen engaged in seditious activities. > > > "Yet, the courts have > > > denied Dr. Sen's bail application three times. It is interesting > > > to note > > > that men from Shri Ram Sene, who beat up women in Mangalore > pubs in > > > front of > > > cameras, were released on bail within 6 hours. Whereas Dr. Sen, > > > with an > > > impeccable 25-year record of public service, and no evidence > > > against him, > > > has been in jail for 22 months now." > > > > > > Angana > > > Chatterji,associate professor, California Institute of Integral > > > Studies, cited the > > > harassment of other human rights defenders in Orissa and Kashmir, > > > statingthat Dr. Sen's case represents an alarming trend where the > > > Indian state is > > > using draconian laws to silence those who oppose state repression. > > > Indeed,Dr. Sen is only the most prominent among numerous human > > > rights defenders and > > > public intellectuals who languish in Indian jails because they > > > dared to > > > speak truth to power. > > > > > > > > > < > > http://docs.google.com/File?id=ddp3w2ff_43gwnvb6pk_b>InNew York, > activists> gathered outside the Indian consulate to read Dr. Sen's > > > New Year Letter from jail, recite poems from around the world in > > > support of > > > Dr. Sen, and sing songs of collective action. Jinee Lokaneeta of > > > the South > > > Asia Solidarity Initiative (SASI), and on the faculty at Drew > > > University,drew attention to the fact that notwithstanding the > > > floundering case against > > > Dr. Sen, the government has recently produced an additional > > > supplementarychargesheet against him. "By repeatedly denying Dr. > > > Sen's bail application, > > > and purposefully prolonging a meaningless trial, the state is > > > ensuring that > > > Dr. Sen stays in prison a long time, even if charges against him > > > are never > > > proved." > > > > > > Murli Natrajan, also of SASI and a faculty member at William > Paterson> > University, added, "The laws used by the state to > arrest Dr. Sen > > > are truly > > > draconian. These are the latest in the tradition of other harsh > > > laws, such > > > as MISA, TADA and POTA, each one of which had to be abandoned > after> > beingdeclared unconstitutional by the highest judicial > authorities,> > and after > > > gross misuse by the state's security apparatus became apparent." > > > > > > Somu Kumar, > > > with Association > > > for India's Development (AID), and one > > > of the > > > organizers of the protest at the Indian embassy in Washington DC, > > > highlighted that these protests are not limited to demanding > the human > > > rights of just one inidividual, Dr. Binayak Sen, but are in > > > opposition to a > > > system which criminalizes those who point out its shortcomings. > > > "At this > > > point, Dr. Sen is a symbol of many other ongoing struggles in > > > India--especially those of the *adivasis*, the indigenous > > > inhabitants of the > > > mineral rich areas, who are resisting displacement by large mining > > > companies, and whose rights Dr. Sen was championing. These > > > protests are > > > also to demand consideration for the human rights of the > *adivasis *of > > > Chhattisgarh, more than 100,000 of who are officially internally > > > displacedpeople due to the actions of the state-sponsored Salwa > > > Judum." > > > < > > http://docs.google.com/File?id=ddp3w2ff_45fpt6n8fs_b> < > > http://docs.google.com/File?id=ddp3w2ff_45fpt6n8fs_b>< > > http://docs.google.com/File?id=ddp3w2ff_44fgp6h9f8_b> > > > A letter > > > signed by > > > more than 50 international peace and justice > > > groups > > Chapters/Maryland/campaign/Binayak_Sen_Org_Endorsement.pdf>,and a > > > list of individuals who have faxed > > > letters > > support-of-the-raipur-satyagraha-for-release-of-dr-binayak-sen/>to > > > the Chhattisgarh and central governments, were submitted to the > Indian> > consular staff at each city who have guaranteed their > delivery to > > > the desks > > > of the Chief Minister of Chhattisgarh, the President and Prime > > > Minister of > > > India, and the Chairperson of the National Human Rights > Commission.> > Someactivists voiced their disappointment that the > government of > > > India had yet > > > to acknowledge any of their previous submissions made over the > > > course of the > > > last year. "In spite of sending several hundred faxes, multiple > > > letters,and individual emails to various officials, we have yet to > > > hear back from a > > > single government official that our letters have been received and > > > read,leave alone considered," said Srividhya Venkataraman, with > AID- > > > Berkeley.She added, "The Indian government has made it a priority > > > to reach out to > > > NRIs. But if we, with multiple channels of communication available > > > to us, > > > have such difficulty in getting our voice heard, how must the > Indian> > government respond to the concerns of an *adivasi > *located in a remote > > > village in Bastar!" > > > > > > Is anyone listening? > > > ------------------------------ > > > *For more information, see the following*: > > > > > > · Information on the Raipur Satyagraha for the Release of Dr. > > > Binayak Sen > > > is available here: http://raipursatyagraha.wordpress.com > > > > > > · More information on Dr. Binayak Sen and his case: > > > > > > o For a detailed analysis of the state’s case against Dr. Sen, > read> > the3-part series in Indian Express by Vinay Sitapati: > > > http://www.binayaksen.net/2009/01/indian-express-series-on- > binayak- > > > sen/ > > > o A timeline of Binayak Sen’s case is available here: > > > http://www.binayaksen.net/2009/01/timeline-of-events-in-the- > strange- > > > case-of-dr-binayak-sen/ > > > > > > o A compilation of news articles on Dr. Sen can be found at > > > www.binayaksen.net , www.freebinayaksen.org and > > > http://www.aidboston.org/FreeBinayakSen/media.htm > > > > > > · On Chhattisgarh Special Public Security Act, 2005: > > > > > > o The text of the law and its analysis by People’s Union for > > > DemocraticRights can be found here: > > > http://cpjc.wordpress.com/chhattisgarh-special-public-security- > act/> > > > > o A law and its victim, Ajoy Ashirwad Mahaprashasta, Frontline, > Oct- > > > Nov 2008 > > > > http://www.hinduonnet.com/fline/fl2522/stories/20081107252212400.htm> > > > > o Caught between Naxals and police, Indian Express, June 11, 2008 > > > > > > http://in.news.yahoo.com/indianexpress/20080611/r_t_ie_nl_general/tnl-caught-between-naxals-and-police-aaaedd4_1.html > > > > > > · Fact-finding reports on Salwa Judum can be obtained from the > > > website for > > > the Campaign for Peace and Justice in Chhattisgarh, > > > http://cpjc.wordpress.com/reports-by-fact-finding-teams-on- > salwa- > > > judum/ > > > · Letter to the Chhattisgarh government by over 50 international > > > peace and > > > justice groups can be found here: > > > http://docs.aidindia.org/Documents/AID- > > > Chapters/Maryland/campaign/Binayak_Sen_Org_Endorsement.pdf > > > > > > > > > ------------------------------ > > > *Photo Credits*: Pei Wu, Sangay Mishra, Somu Kumar and Balaji > > > Narasimhan*For more information*, contact: > > > Shalini Gera, mail at friendsofsouthasia.org > > > Murli Natrajan, mnatrajan at yahoo.com > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > -- > > > Any responsible politician should be encouraging a home grown Free > > > Softwareindustry because it creates the basis for future jobs. > > > Learning Windows is > > > like learning to eat every meal at McDonalds. > > > > > > > > > ------------------------------ > > > > > > Message: 4 > > > Date: Mon, 30 Mar 2009 11:34:27 +0530 > > > From: bipin > > > Subject: [Reader-list] Re: The decline of the 'encounter death' > > > To: Taha Mehmood <2tahamehmood at googlemail.com> > > > Cc: sarai-list > > > Message-ID: <002101c9b0fd$62d23e90$0201a8c0 at limo> > > > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 > > > > > > Dear Taha, > > > > > > Its question of common sense and no study is required. The man who > > > accused remains in custody for long time and waiting for their > > > hearing in court to come. During the time they are mentally > down or > > > may go under depression, which effects their health heavily. > Police> > strictness to get truth adds fuel to their > mental/physical illness > > > position. If he proved innocent after pretty long time (say 8/10 > > > years) but mentally he would be tired and his health effected > > > heavily. > > > > > > > > > > > > No doubt, there might be cases of police atrocities, but > looking to > > > the cases comes with police and court, this figure is negligible. > > > Also, the figure appear may be after studies, not necessarily > true.> > Since they just count death not only at jail, but death > occur at > > > home, but case going on can also be counted. They are no > > > clarification in their data. > > > > > > > > > > > > For each and every thing one should not see in the eye research or > > > studies. Even thing I have noticed that after long research, data > > > achieved can also be easily understood by common sense. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > thanks > > > > > > Bipin > > > > > > > > > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > > From: Taha Mehmood > > > To: bipin > > > Sent: Monday, March 30, 2009 7:29 AM > > > Subject: Re: [Reader-list] The decline of the 'encounter death' > > > > > > > > > Dear Bipin > > > > > > Please tell me what has our judicial system got to do with > > > custodial deaths? What is the co-relationship between delay in > > > court cases and out dated laws and people dying under police > > > custody? Are there any studies or any figures that you would wish > > > to quote here or are we to believe your seemingly outrageous > claims> > on the basis of your word only? Again a primary reading > of your > > > post might lead us to assume that ALL custodial deaths involve > > > people who are 'criminals', is that the case? If so then could you > > > please substantiate your argument. > > > > > > Regards > > > > > > Taha > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ------------------------------ > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > > reader-list mailing list > > > reader-list at sarai.net > > > https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > > > > > > > > > End of reader-list Digest, Vol 68, Issue 76 > > > ******************************************* > > > > > _________________________________________ > > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > > Critiques & Collaborations > > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > > subscribe in the subject header. > > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > > List archive: > From peter.ksmtf at gmail.com Fri Apr 3 15:17:29 2009 From: peter.ksmtf at gmail.com (T Peter) Date: Fri, 3 Apr 2009 15:17:29 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Candidates should specify stance: KSMTF Message-ID: <3457ce860904030247s7f7662d8l2643e5ba14d4deb8@mail.gmail.com> *Candidates should specify stance: KSMTF * *Date:31/03/2009* *URL: http://www.thehindu.com/2009/03/31/stories/2009033151000200.htm * THIRUVANANTHAPURAM: The National Fish Workers’ Forum and the Kerala Swathantra Matsya Thozhilali Federation (KSMTF) have urged the candidates in the Lok Sabha elections to make their stand clear on the problems faced by the fisheries sector. At a press conference here, KSMTF State president T. Peter said successive governments at the Centre had failed to address threats to the livelihood security of traditional fish workers. The federation had stressed the need for a fisheries policy and a separate ministry for fisheries. It had also been demanding a ban on import of fish and operation of foreign trawlers in Indian waters as well as a reduction in the tax on outboard engines, he said. Mr. Peter also highlighted the demand for adequate supply of kerosene at reduced rates for fishing boats.Other demands include scrapping the move to replace the Coastal Regulation Zone with the Coastal Management Programme and writing off the loans availed by fish workers and fish vendors.Mr. Peter said a memorandum including these demands would be submitted to mainstream political parties and candidates in the fray in coastal states. He added that fish workers would decide to cast their votes on the basis of the stand adopted by the candidates. . — Special Correspondent From rakesh.rnbdj at gmail.com Fri Apr 3 18:36:10 2009 From: rakesh.rnbdj at gmail.com (Rakesh Iyer) Date: Fri, 3 Apr 2009 18:36:10 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] secularism In-Reply-To: References: <004301c9b358$fc0ca1b0$0201a8c0@limo> Message-ID: Hi (to all) Secularism for me would mean that we accept, tolerate (in sense of tolerance) and respect the great divergences in our views, and act based on principles of natural justice, human rights and reason as well on the above principles (of acceptance, tolerance and respect). From aliens at dataone.in Fri Apr 3 18:43:55 2009 From: aliens at dataone.in (bipin) Date: Fri, 03 Apr 2009 18:43:55 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Mallika Sarabhai's Public Meeting in JNU on 31stMarch References: <000901c9b121$26989220$0201a8c0@limo> <003901c9b201$d086b3d0$0201a8c0@limo> Message-ID: <004501c9b45e$0b5c1780$0201a8c0@limo> Dear Rakesh, Rakesh, I think you don��t won��t to come out of your rigid belief and remain in the past. Be in present. My experience says that be in present and if you remain in past make rigid belief accordingly, you will never be happy. This will be applicable to general and will be helpful to your life when you grown up and start your real life after studies. Now, I will give you very brief answer of the points raised by you since you will not understand any detailed explanation unless you read it with open and broad mind. Don��t block your self to one belief only. 1) Advani is far better than the so called secularists and opportunists like Paswan, Farukh, Jaylalitha, Karunanidhi, Naidu, Mulayam, Lalu, Patnaik, Mayawati, communists (Yes, if you consider communists as secular than answer: why they allow infiltration of Bangladeshi��s since many years and giving even ration card for what purpose. Just to take their vote. If they have stopped them from the starting only inspite of warning given to them many times would have been consider real secular. Actually this is the real case of National Security Act �V NSA, but no body bothering for it and for false reason Varun Gandhi is in this act. that��s it. Even NDA did not do much when they were in power in this direction. However, they show will for this in couple of occasions. I don��t say what Varun says is right he is immature person and could not say properly what he want to say. He should use world Bharatiya instead of Hindu). I invite sarai members to give their view whether I am right or wrong for this point 1. I told you earlier, that BJP started playing Hindu vote bank to counter congress minor vote bank politics since almost independent. If anybody giving fight for Hindu right in Hindustan than it does not mean they are non-secular. This is also part of secularism. 2) if million of people��s feelings (aatha) will be their in particular place even where I live and if there were few such traces of old monuments (temple or mosque) there I would be definitely pleased to give away that place for sake of million of people and in a way help to prevail peace. (though I don��t prefer to go to dirty temples, instead I prefer to go to wild life jungles since I believe nature is the best temple made by god). Also, I told you that ram-mandir issue is not the issue now and its subjudice and if you remain in past you will never grow. Ram/Krishna are consider to be yug-purush (person of that era) if you not consider them as god and there is no need of proof for their existence. As you say, they are myth than also millions of people has faith in them and with their inspiration one want to live their life, nothing wrong in it. Gita is considered to be best book globally accepted (don��t ask again proof of it. You read it first and then argue on it) with full of philosophy of life and teach us how to live your life peacefully and happily. If you not believe Ram/Krishna as god than what about Ishu and Payagamber? According to you they are also not consider as god of Christian and Muslims. Don��t ignore this answer me. Don��t say that there is ampoule of proof for their existence. Since all the gods (ram/Krishna/ishu/Payagamber) are proving there existence by way of historical books and no witness today there. What applicable to one will be applicable to all. May be Mahatma Gandhi after few centuries prayed as god and some like you after 2000/3000 years that he can not be consider as god, but millions of people belief you can not change. The man becomes or accepted god with their acts of life they live. Since, we know Gandhi was man like us but with his work can be considered as Yug Purush. Just I am giving single member name: Afzal Guru �V convicted by SC. My dear friend, sometime I doubt that even you are Indian by giving such challenge which is absolutely useless and even I fill with whom un-necessarily I am arguing with a immature boy. This is last mail from me you are receiving by way of clarification. Every one knows that in the recent bomb blasts took place in various cities, many local Muslims are arrested and court cases going on and you know in India court procedure takes much more time. Even, Mumbai train bomb blast case, what would you say for that? Think twice before giving such statement. Azamgadh (UP) has bad name for this activity will proved in the near future. Even in Malegoan case, Hindus are arrested and they should be punished as soon as possible if found guilty. 3) I don��t say to get successful and show its effect after 3 years of its govt. Whatever, new policy matter they take up, some new laws they put up gets implemented and gets effected after some time and for govt. changes with entirely different base of thoughts will definitely take time. This time for our vast country will definitely take 2.5/3 years. Similarly when UPA came to power in 2005, the effect of NDA govt. by way of policy result will remain effected for at least 2007. Things will not change overnight moment the govt changes. POTA should be there or not is expert has to decide. Who we are to judge for it and in my knowledge all the top intelligence agency, top police officials, army official��s general view are of the opinion to have such law. Only Pseudo-secularist and some orthodox congressy are opposing it. Even in private many congress man also favoring such law. 4) You still don��t understand the root based development. In the field of infrastructure development Gujarat way ahead in many ways than the other state. Gujarat roads were much better even before reforms started and it was agreed by tourist come over here, in power sector Gujarat is always ahead and almost having today uninterrupted power including villages. For this Gujarat is paying highest tariff for power and lowest power theft than rest of the India and this is the reason they get uninterrupted supply. Similarly it has highest no. of ports and this is due to their long seashore and highest no. domestic airports than any other states. Reason is, since their establishments, Gujarat has not given any subsidies by any means. No free electricity to farmers and they are paying as per norms only, never given any subsidies rice or such other thing but still Gujarat is ahead of all the state in many criteria. It gives highest income to central govt. highest investment in share market, post office saving, banks. Prosperity of Gujarat was there and Narendra Modi has just speeded this up by improving govt. efficiency by having total control over IAS cadre, minimize corruption, made govt PSU profitable. This is not small things. Gujarat has shown progress without subsidy is the proof of my argument. 5) Poor fellow, by wrongly mis-spelled if you fill that I am dis respecting her one can judge your level of thinking. The spelling end with kar or ker both are their and this is personal name spelling not the English word. I have already mentioned earlier that still the canal work is going on and Kutch/Saurashtra is situated very far. For your information they are having water now in Kutch compared to previous years by way water harvesting and talawadi process. Sorry to say but in 2009 you mention September 2005 data. Who will believe with such foolish argument. Not even 2005 data after seeing your link, all the parameters mentioned there were in detail studied by court and given the permission there after only. This process of between 1993 to 2004. you are just making argument for this old issue which is already over. Again let me tell you if you keep past in mind always in this 21st century, I feel pity for you. This movement you have mentioned is run by foreign personal and their funding only coming to the Megha (spelling OK?) madam against this project. Such foreign official are normally against the India to grow and such many movement is going on with foreign various trust funding. Many NGO��s and human right activities bread butter with such fund only. We are fully capable to judge what is good and bad for us and we do not have to depend on any body advise unless and until ask for. 6) As far as Dreze article is concerned with link: http://www.indiatogether.org/direct/2005/cdr-000063.html particularly content as ��In Kapari, Sursati Devi complained that she had worked for 60 days on a drought relief programme, but she had been paid only for one week. Even for that week she had received as little as 35 kgs of wheat, equivalent to Rs 30 per day or so. The minimum wage in Uttar Pradesh is Rs 58 per day. Earlier on, the Yatra heard many similar testimonies about the dismal state of public employment programmes as it traveled through the country's poorest districts. Some of the Yatris, students at Delhi University and Jawaharlal Nehru University, have also been associated with a survey of the Food-For-Work programme undertaken at the same time as the Yatra. The survey has uncovered widespread irregularities in the implementation of the programme. For instance, contractors are routinely used, in violation of the official Guidelines. Labourers never earn the statutory minimum, and many of them have worked for as little as Rs 20 or 25 a day. The muster rolls, which are supposed to be available for public scrutiny, are almost always withheld. And basic worksite facilities such as drinking water, shade for children and first-aid material are rarely available. �� I think from above 2 para of the link, you come to conclusion of Rs. 20 per day. First of all this is report of June 2005 which you use today in 2009 (please come out of past again). This is particular incident of particular area of UP (may be some more incident might be there) which you can not take for granted of Rs. 20 per day wage getting in all the villages of India. This woman complained for payment of 1 week only against the work of 60 days. This is what I am trying to tell that by govt. authorities every where this is happening and huge amount being wasted. That��s why these are all severe wastage of money and instead, if its used for basic infrastructure work would be more benefited and for this work also employment generation will be there. Infrastructure work does not only include road, power, ports, air-ports. These I have mentioned are basic infrastructure at central level. Education and other state/city/town/village level infrastructure like drainage, sanitation and irrigation are also there. Still it can be more. But, these things should be given priority against such schemes where people become lazy only. 7) I am sorry I misunderstood your sentence earlier of License raj read hurriedly at that time and happy to note that you do not support it. I am not saying all the subsidies are waste of money. I put priority first for the basic infrastructural development and with that I am sure standard of living will definitely come up and than also if necessary (But I am sure it will not required if proper infrastructure will be there) you can go for subsidy. When a big industries coming up at all states and central govt. gives initial incentives (not only for Nano plant) for industry��s initial teething period. May be in the tune of 100 to 2000 crore not for single year. It will be for period of about 10 years. That also depends on the reputation of the group. Since they give much more than the subsidy value by way of taxes. While other subsidy you are talking is from the tax payer��s money only one has the right oppose it by way heavy misuse. Rs. 30000 crore subsidies were not given to Tata. This is the opposition propaganda giving such figure in news paper. The land allocate to them are at market rate only prevailing in the market at that time. It was zoomed up about 5 to 10 times after this deal and opposition after counting this zoomed land rate as also subsidy. They have given benefit by way of vat tax, tax free power, stamp duty and may be some more parameters and this also spread for about 5/10 years. But, when plant will be started and run for long time, revenue generation is much larger. 8) Are India ready to make changes in the labor laws, or suspension of govt. employer for not showing his work efficiency or lethargic in his work? If no, then you have to sell or run with partnership of private party is the only solution to make it profitable. Else with the loss of govt companies, from where the resources will come for subsidies as you believe. In the reputed or professional private company have also job security if they work properly 9) My dear friend, Nationalism and Patriotic has same meaning practically. If you believes in democracy than forget China. However, than you should ready to adopt china model of development, where no labor unions is there, wage scale is low decided by govt. only. Ask your communist cadre and others to help by adopting such model without labor unions, job securities. 10) What Sardar Patel did after independence is every one knows and not required any proof for it. His and even Mr. Nehru patriotism was much higher than all of us and today not a single leader comes under their feet. But, question is that if Nehru heard and did as per Patel��s and other fellow member guidance, I am sure India will be on the different path of prosperity today. 11) 60% of Kashmiri took part in democratic process it self is referendum. If you don��t accept it it��s your fault. I think so, according to you Kashmir should be liberated and this is solution in your eye. Than you have to divide Jammu and Kashmir as different state, since I am sure Jammu people remain with India only. To solve Kashmir problem is altogether different issue and require more time to discuss can be done at later stage. 12) I have just said Indira was great leader it does not mean her rule was good. Root of today��s bad politics started from her rule only. Basu is great leader and he wanted to make reform in WB in his last decade rule, but your communist bosses did not allowed him. So, Buddhdev is suffering the same today. 13) Method of GDP calculation is not proper and govt. made it as per their requirement. 14) I discussed infrastructural point earlier not repeating. Today poverty is 25% bellow (however according to you it is much more) or say 30%, so for about 36/40 crore people we have to provide house. Do we have such huge fund? No. So, first create resources by way of development, which is only possible with basic infrastructure and than think for all this. By wasting money in the schemes, huge govt. employer salaries (we have much more govt. staff than the required) and unnecessary govt. expenses we can not prosper. So, my dear friend, don��t think much and be in present time, you will be happy in life. The person changes with time and learned from his past experience, so consider today��s situation and assess things accordingly. There is no time and this my last mail to you. thanks Bipin ----- Original Message ----- From: Rakesh Iyer To: bipin Cc: sarai-list Sent: Tuesday, March 31, 2009 8:27 PM Subject: Re: [Reader-list] Mallika Sarabhai's Public Meeting in JNU on 31stMarch Dear Bipin (and all) Unfortunately, I again have to put up a long mail on the points raised. Please bear with me for this, especially if you consider this spamming. 1) Advani's Rath Yatra: About this yatra, I mentioned it in particular because firstly, Advani is no great personality who did no wrongs. While you have been criticizing Mallika for being an upper class goon, the fact is that Advani also has done wrongs. Not for nothing is a case registered against him by the CBI for Babri Masjid Demolition case. Moreover, the Liberhan Commission is still investigating the case. And while you can claim that he is innocent until proven guilty, everybody knows what happened in the yatra. You can take a survey as well on this issue if you don't agree with me, and I would be happy to be proven wrong. Mallika doesn't have any case registered against her to the best of my knowledge. If you know of some case, you can please bring it to our notice. As far as your knowledge of riots is concerned, when his Rath Yatra passed through Rajasthan, there were riots in places after his yatra passed. Moreover, even believing your point that it was his arrest that led to riots, why did those riots take place outside Bihar? In particular as a threat to show that nobody dare arrest Advani. And as for Lalu, if Advani is right in playing Hindu vote bank up by this yatra, what wrong has Lalu done by playing minority vote bank politics? 2) Babri Masjid demolition: Let's look at it this way. Suppose tomorrow the BJP says that the place where your house was constructed had a temple long back, which had been destroyed. Now, they want it to be rebuild again. Would you like to leave your house? Secondly, while the Babri Masjid Action Committee may have had a part in communalizing the incident by refusing to hand over Babri Masjid, will we keep on fighting about our history all the time? Is hunger a bigger issue or Ram Mandir? And if the latter is a bigger issue, I challenge the entire Sangh Parivar to sit for a hunger strike till the Mandir is built. By the way you would be glad to know that the place which is today regarded as Ayodhya (holy place as Lord Ram was born there), is considered by historians to be very different from the Ayodhya as described in the Ramayana. Moreover, the time period when this mandir was supposedly destroyed, was also the period when one of the greatest bhakts of Lord Ram, namely Goswami Tulsidas also lived. Tulsidas has never mentioned any destruction of any mandir in that part of India to make a masjid, for he would have protested it. He could have mentioned it in his texts. Moreover, it has never been a part of any historical record either by Hindus or Muslims at that time in India. The first time it came into acknowledgement was under the British rule, somewhere in 1860's or 1870's. How do you know that a Mandir was there? As for nationalizing Muslims or making them patriotic, name one Muslim who is not patriotic or is not loyal to India. Enough of this rhetoric. I would challenge any Sarai member here to name one single Muslim of India, who is not loyal to this nation. I have been hearing this crap for long. There is no evidence to prove this. Even in the past 5 years or 6 years, no case of terrorism involving Indian Muslims supposedly has been proven. Inspite of all this, many continue to say Indian Muslims are supporters of terrorists. So please tell me who are the Muslims you have seen who are anti-India or pro-terrorist? Name them. Don't be afraid of them. 3) It's an absolutely irrational statement to believe that any government policy formed by a govt in the beginning of its tenure, requires 2.5/3 years to be actually successful and show its' effects. The time lag after which any policy shows its' effects depends upon the policy and the conditions in which it is supposed to operate. A scheme like NREGA was successful in its very first year in both Madhya Pradesh and Rajasthan, whereas for a thermal power plant to be constructed, the mininum time required for the fruition of such a scheme is about 5 years (I read this in a newspaper report, and you are free to challenge this. I would be happy), and in many cases, a party would required two terms at the centre or the provincial level to ensure that power projects initiated at the beginning of its first term start showing effects in the second term. As for Gujarat. In 2002, POTA had not become a law. It was an ordinance known as POTO. And yet the Akshardam attack took place. Gujarat didn't have any law of POTA name after 2004 when the UPA govt at centre repealed it. Inspite of this, 4 years were taken for Gujarat to get attacked. All this time, Gujarat had no special law on terror. And yet it was not attacked. If without any anti-terror law, Gujarat was so safe that no terror attacks took place, then what is the requirement of such a law anyway? My opposition to POTA stems from two factors. First of all, it's conviction rate as I have read it, is about 2-3%. This is even lower than TADA, the earlier anti-terror law. Secondly, it goes against basic tenets of human rights, and only innocents have been captured through this law. I would ask you again the same question as I had asked previously on this very forum: If I want to kill you at any cost and don't worry about my own death in the process, can POTA stop me from doing so? Or will police action in an effective manner stop it? Take your pick. 4) What is so wrong if something is done from the votes earning point of view? Is vote earning a kind of sin being committed by political parties? Any step being good or bad must be analyzed rationally, whether it be allowing a riot to take place or nationalization of banks. I don't know much about nationalization and wont' comment upon it. But I think politicians are concerned about winning votes, and if some good policy is introduced to get votes, there is nothing wrong in it. Examples are NREGA, RTI and Ladli Laxmi Yojana. As for intelligence failure, I can agree with you. However, intelligence is not the future way to solve terrorism problem. It is through creation of a just and humane society that we can solve terrorism. 5) You have been talking about Medha Patkar. First of all, it would be better for you to learn the spelling and pronounce the name properly. I personally respect her, and so would be many here on this forum. At least respect our sensibilites if not your own. After all, I dont' go around abusing Lord Ram and disrespecting others. And I expect the same from you too. Now getting out of sentimenality, since you claim Sardar Sarovar Dam project is very useful, I would like to get an answer regarding this fact I have heard and read. The dam was supposed to deliver water to the parched areas of Kutch. How many areas of Kutch has the water reached? Has it reached all the cities? How much area does it irrigate? This is what I got from a report on this particular dam, and I can put up the entire report for the benefit of all, if they want. �nReport shows only 15% of households in Kutch and Saurashtra getting water 1)Sitting BJP MP under Modi says farmers not getting water or power in spite of Narmada Canal going through the district 2) �nRenowned Ecologist says Narmada water in Rann (desert) wont work 3) Modi government busy wasting water by ��inter-linking�� Narmada with mythical river Saraswati; a ploy to create sheer emotional appeal 4)Government leasing out land to industrialists in SSP Command 5) �nLarge scale water-logging in the Sardar Sarovar command area this monsoon, including Jambusar 6) Narmada main canal breaches again this year; lakhs of gallons of water floods nearby fields 7) �nNarmada Main Canal becoming a watery grave for many desperate indebted families as per September 2005 data. May be you should also read things on other side of the story instead of believing Modi mania all the time. Even Modi can be wrong. As for the power production, the less said the better. The Gujarat government has been giving different heights for the generation of power in the last 17 years, and how much power production is taking place now? For further info, read this: http://www.narmada.org/sardar-sarovar/faq/whopays.html http://www.narmada.org/sardar-sarovar/irnoverview940525.html By the way, the project was protested so vehemently that the very World Bank, which you claim praised the project, had stopped lending money for the project (after 92 if I am not wrong). How is that for this great project? And so many people can't be wrong, even if Medha Patkar is wrong. Better find statistics showing the increase in agricultural production, increase in electricity production, increase in land area irrigated and other relevant data due to this particular project (not total Gujarat data please). 6) As far as this figure is concerned. Let me just clarify something here. This figure had been obtained from a Jean Dreze article. However, I couldn't find that article here. Luckily, what I did get is this article on web, which proves my point. The link is: http://www.indiatogether.org/2006/mar/ddz-povline.htm What this says is that the poverty line was Rs. 540 (urban)as per 2004 statistics. And this only included food expenses (not shelter or clothing or other possible emergency expenses on health). This is below Rs. 600. The article I read said that due to inflation, this data had changed from Rs. 540 to Rs. 600 as per 2007-08 statistics, which I will confirm. And Bipin jee, I don't think you have seen Lord Ram or Lord Krishna in your life. (not in dreams, and not Arun Govil). At least I haven't seen them. Many have not seen them as well. Then why do they believe these lords exist? Reality can exist even if I or you haven't seen it, provided others have. These statistics prove that 26% population is still below poverty line as per these statistics The point I feel I have put up which could be wrong is that 72% population is below this figure, as I can't find that article by Dreze which said that if the urban poverty line is taken as the poverty line even in rural areas, particularly as Dreze saw that the amount per day was too low in rural areas to lead a proper life. By the way, if you doubt Dreze, then better read about who he is and what he does before commenting. 7) By mentioning licence raj, I haven't supported it. Better come back to reality than imagining things which I never said. I only said it was the removal of licence raj which saw growth for India. I am not against growth, but I want that growth to be equitable as well, to which the UPA govt has tried to achieve this, and the BJP seems to try to do the same. But people like you think these subsidies are a waste of public money. Go and find out the amount given directly and indirectly as subsidy by Gujarat govt to Tatas or Indian govt to all large scale industries and big players. The food subsidy is very small compared to that. 8) Just because government companies don't work does not mean you sell them. You ensure strict implementation of rules and also introduce incentives for people to work, rather than selling them off to private companies. And any selling should be judged by rationally, not by you and me, but by professionals and economic specialists as well as people who can keep the overall objective of safeguarding national interests in mind. As for the PPP model or private ownership model, now that the economy is in a recession, the companies are not able to develop their own property or production capability, then only the govt. is left to do any economic activity. What should the govt do then? Not do anything and let people wither away? The govt has realized its responsibility of providing equitable growth to all through schemes like NREGA, and any day I would support such subsidy instead of giving 30,000 crores subsidy to Tatas in Gujarat by Modi and his dispensation. 9) I don't want any nationalism. It is crap. I want citizens to be patriotic. There is no need to be nationalistic. For all those who want to be nationalistic, let me remind them that the Nationalist Government in China was overthrown by the Communists after a decade of rule in 1947-49. And nationalism hasn't worked for BJP in getting a majority on its own in Indian Parliament. They had to adjust themselves with regional sub-nationalisms and collabarate with state based regional parties. 10) I agree terror blasts can't take place without local support. What is the proof that this support is given by Muslims? As for Patel's statement, I have read statements not exactly reading this, but meaning the same, in a couple of books. The one I remember now is Ramchandra Guha's 'India after Gandhi', and probably it has an incident where Patel tells someone to be careful about Muslims and to get information about Muslim policemen or something. Please check that out. 11) 'Peace loving Hinduism' is already seen by me in Babri Masjid demolition and Gujarat riots. Now I dont' want to see any more 'peace-loving Hindus'. It's better to see silent Hindus than these great Hindus who want to wipe out the very ideals of our nation on which it is based, by raping and molesting women, and by killing old men and children who could never harm Hindu religion (just because they were Muslims/Christians). I am ashamed to call such people as belonging to my religion. Akbar was more a Hindu than these genocide creators. And such Hindus would have created Hindu Pakistan long back if Nehru was not there. Nehru made many mistakes, but he ensured proper rule of democracy in India and also gave other achievements like proper establishments of institutions in India like Election Commission, Planning Commission and others. It was his daughter who ruined India more than them. As for Kashmir, why do you worry about referendum? If you are very sure Kashmiris want to be a part of India, let us have a referendum and get it proven. It will put our doubts to end for once and for all. 12) If Indira can be a great leader by ruling for 17 years, then I think Jyoti Basu and Fidel Castro would be far greater leaders in your mind (both Communists) as they ruled their respective state and country (Cuba) for 25 and (50+) years respectively. And I don't rate rulers as great based on that. She ruined India by emergency and her actions like Bhindranwale's creation which ruined Punjab and India as such. It was what led to her death as well. As for your vote bank politics, could you name the vote bank for which Indira Gandhi did so? We all would be very happy if you could do so. And please, do justify how does this vote bank get satisfied if POK is not taken from Pakistan. 13) Better be concerned with Gini inequality ratio (used by World Bank) and GDP per capita to look at inequality as well instead of looking only at GDP in totality. Today India is more unequal than it was in 1991. And this is wrong. 14) As far as your infrastructural development is concerned, it only helps the rich and not the poor. The poor want education, health, sanitation facilities, food, clothing and shelter. This is also infrastructure, but is unfortunately missing from your understanding of infrastructure. Mind you, they need these at low cost, not at the costs at which today middle class people buy their homes. And they need these from the govt. Neither you nor me, nor any real estate buyer or some private company is going to get these for them. And for implementation, you are right. One should criticize the govt if it is found lacking in implementation, but then the govt should provide it. Privatization is not the solution for it involves high costs, which these poor people can't pay. By the way, Raman Singh has won in Chhatisgarh on a macro level because it is believed his schemes of rice at Rs 3/- per kg was implemented very properly and efficiently. This is claimed even by NGO' s supposedly loyal to Congress. Very useful scheme for tribal people, as BJP won in tribal seats. Ab final baat hindi mein Bipin jee (because English is my brain language, Hindi is my heart language). Dekhiye jee. aap issues badi superficially dekh rahe hain. mai kahoonga aapse issues ki gehrai mein jaayein aur unhein dekhein. aap gujarat mein hain. bajay yeh kehne ke ki modi ne elections jeete ya woh development laaya, figures dekhiye aur constituency level par analyze kijiye what clicked and what not. chahiye to surveys kijiye aur unke results bataiye. i would be very happy. is tarah se macro based statements dene se kisi ka koi bhala nahi hoga. aur kripa karke muslims ke liye bani sachar commitee ka report zaroor padhiye. aapko pata chalega woh kitne poor hain. aur phir aap khud sochenge unhein itni gaali kyun dete hain log. aap hi khud achambhe mein rahenge Regards Rakesh From rana at ranadasgupta.com Fri Apr 3 21:08:37 2009 From: rana at ranadasgupta.com (Rana Dasgupta) Date: Fri, 03 Apr 2009 21:08:37 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Just another British, Indian, Muslim, Arab, Christian lesbian romantic comedy Message-ID: <49D62D7D.1080503@ranadasgupta.com> "Just another British, Indian, Muslim, Arab, Christian lesbian romantic comedy" Liz Hoggard 02.04.09 http://www.thisislondon.co.uk/standard/article-23670299-details/%22Just+another+British%2C+Indian%2C+Muslim%2C+Arab%2C+Christian+lesbian+romantic+comedy%22/article.do Two young women are introduced at an expensive Mayfair apartment full of antiques and exquisite glassware. A housekeeper brings in mint tea and sweetmeats. Both have boyfriends (indeed Tala is busy preparing for her huge society wedding) but it's a romantic coup de foudre. This scene from writer-director Shamim Sarif's new lesbian romantic comedy, which opens tomorrow, is extraordinary for many reasons. We've had gay love stories set in the capital before. But Shamim's film - billed as "just another British, Indian, Muslim, Arab, Christian lesbian romantic comedy" - is the first time anyone has written a cross-cultural, cross-religious romance between two women. I Can't Think Straight is the love affair between Tala, a London-based Jordanian of Palestinian origin, and Leyla, a shy young British Asian woman. What's more, it closely mirrors Shamim's own life story. Thirteen years ago, London-based Shamim, a British Indian of Muslim origin, met her female partner, Hanan Kattan, a Palestinian from Jordan. She was 26, Hanan was 33. and both were from wealthy families. Hanan had fallen in love with women before and had in fact broken off five engagements to men but it was a shock for Shamim. When they first got together, they faced strong opposition from their families. "In the Middle East it is extremely rare to be 'out' and an Indian Muslim background meant that I also had some resistance [to it]," says Shamim. "I was the first woman that Shamim had been with, so her mother threw a fit and blamed me," recalls Hanan, laughing. "But I loved the way she had integrity from the beginning. When we got together, she said: 'I am telling my parents', after week one." Today they are married with two young sons - Ethan, 10, and Luca, six. I meet them at the beautiful Chelsea mansion flat, full of art and antiques, where they live, opposite the Chelsea Physic Garden. A housekeeper brings us coffee and everywhere there are photos of the two boys - handsome, mischievous - who are half-siblings. "We both carried a child each, they have the same father," explains Shamim simply. The couple met at a tea party - just like in the film - at Hanan's parents' house in Mayfair. Shamim was actually dating Hanan's best male friend at the time. "He wanted to marry Shamim but nothing had happened between them except a few dates. We're very good friends now and go on holiday together. He made a speech at our wedding. No hearts were broken, which is why I can tell it so lightly," says Hanan. It took a while after their initial meeting to reveal how they felt about each other. "We both battled with our feelings along the way," Shamim says. "There was certainly a long period of denied attraction. It took Hanan a bit longer than me to be able to feel comfortable enough to come out to her family and friends, because I think she was very aware of her parents' standing in the Middle East, where everyone tends to know everyone. But what was wonderful was that certain people, including one of Hanan's sisters and my own sister, Anouchka, made it clear that if our parents or anyone else had an issue with us then they had an issue with them, too. That kind of support is invaluable." Most films about lesbians are set in grinding poverty. I Can't Think Straight is glamorous and aspirational. Yes, it's a bit sentimental. But in many ways the couple are pioneers. They had their first child 10 years ago when lesbian motherhood was more controversial. "My dad was quite practical about it," says Shamim. "He said: 'You're old enough to know what you want to do.' My mother had a harder time because she was more concerned with what people's perceptions would be. Since then she's come around and she's absolutely fine but it was a process of years." They married at a civil wedding at Chelsea Town Hall in 2006, followed by a lunch for 40 friends and family. They talk lightly about the early prejudice they faced. "Being honest and open was much more important to us, particularly when we had children," says Shamim, "because we didn't want our children to grow up feeling the relationship between us was anything but right and correct, because we love each other and chose to be together. We took the resistance and aggravation in our stride, and found that when people know you they get over the abstract fear of the unknown." And yet there have been casualties. Of Hanan's five sisters, three have disapproved of their relationship; one will still not speak to them. And when a Muslim Indian client of Shamim's father read his daughter was gay, he withdrew all his business from her father's company and threatened to take the rest of the community with him. "It's horrible to do that to a man in his seventies, to use your economic muscle to punish the father," says Shamim. Ironic when they are such a success story. Today their life seems highly enviable. They live in one of London's most desirable addresses. Their office and the boys' school is literally down the street. Their housekeeper and Shamim's sister help out with childcare. Hanan sold her ethical beauty and haircare business before they moved into film production. They both come from high-achieving families. Shamim's father set up a life insurance company in London, while Hanan's Arab parents had businesses in Jordan before the war. "Her grandfather was a leading entrepreneur and philanthropist in Jordan and Palestine, so they were not destitute." They make a striking couple: Shamim, with an urchin crop and killer cheekbones; Hanan, with a mop of wild curls. Shamim never expected to become a film director. Born in south London after her parents left South Africa in the early Sixties to escape apartheid, she studied English literature at London University, then took a Masters in English at Boston University. Her first novel, The World Unseen, is a Fifties love affair between two Indian South African women, which won the Betty Trask Award. She optioned one short story (about unrequited love) to a film company in Hollywood but, as she observes wryly: "They raised quite a big budget - $15 million - but wanted two sex scenes and a nude scene added. Quite a tall order in an unrequited love story." So she and Hanan decided to start their own production company to make the screenplay of I Can't Think Straight. Shamim had been studying directing at London's Raindance Institute. But it was a "baptism of fire" to turn her first script into a £1 million movie. "Neither of us had really been on a film set before so the learning curve was off the chart." The films stars the Indian-Polish actress Lisa Ray, who won rave reviews for Deepa Mehta's film Water. She is the character inspired by Hanan, while Shamim is played by the Asian American actress Sheetal Sheth. They would have loved to have cast British Arab and Asian actresses but everyone balked at the explicit lesbian love scene. Shamim also wanted to use Arab language songs over the scenes but ended up having to write them herself when she couldn't get permission. And that wasn't the only headache. Their first equity investor let them down. The money never arrived, the shooting schedule was cut - and eventually he held on to the finished film. Shamim had to go to court to get it back. In the middle of the nightmare, they got the money to start shooting her second film, based on her novel The World Unseen. This time private equity was raised by a band of female executive producers including Lisa Tchenguiz-Imerman (sister of property developers Vincent and Robert Tchenguiz). "Lisa has been a close friend of mine for 20 years and so supportive," says Hanan. They regained control of I Can't Think Straight and the two films will be released in the UK on the same day. "In Toronto we had them both playing in the same cinema," marvels Shamim. Critics have compared The World Unseen (a proper art film, which also stars Ray and Sheth) to Brokeback Mountain. But it's I Can't Think Straight that will grab the headlines. Shamim is realistic that it may upset London's more traditional Muslim community. "I think the homosexuality will be difficult for them. The fact that it's a love story between two women is an issue for most Middle Eastern cultures." From ysaeed7 at yahoo.com Fri Apr 3 21:20:43 2009 From: ysaeed7 at yahoo.com (Yousuf) Date: Fri, 3 Apr 2009 08:50:43 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Reader-list] The Epitaph of a Mind: Vir Sanghvi In-Reply-To: <357485.7431.qm@web53611.mail.re2.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <62043.37747.qm@web51403.mail.re2.yahoo.com> I completely disagree with the author. --- On Thu, 4/2/09, Rahul Asthana wrote: > From: Rahul Asthana > Subject: Re: [Reader-list] The Epitaph of a Mind: Vir Sanghvi > To: "Sarai" , "Wali Arifi" , ysaeed7 at yahoo.com > Date: Thursday, April 2, 2009, 7:19 PM > Dear Yousuf, > It isn't clear from your email whether you agree or > disagree with the writers contention. Can you please > clarify? > > Thanks > Rahul > > > --- On Thu, 3/26/09, Yousuf > wrote: > > > From: Yousuf > > Subject: Re: [Reader-list] The Epitaph of a Mind: Vir > Sanghvi > > To: "Sarai" , > "Wali Arifi" > > Date: Thursday, March 26, 2009, 12:13 PM > > Thanks Wali Arifi for posting this write-up. > > I am amazed at the shallowness of the analysis made by > such > > an experienced journalist. If one can get to know > about the > > people of a certain country simply by observing the > most > > apparent signs (as seen on TV) of last few days and > > generalize that they are evil or different or > whatever, > > compared to us, then I think Vir Sanghvi is right. But > I am > > sure such a simple generalization could even be made > by a > > 6th grade school student brought up on a diet of TV > news. > > > > If Pakistanis are not the same people as us (Indians) > > simply because over last 60 years they have grown to > become > > something else (something of an evil), haven't we > > Indians grown to become something else? What makes > > Mr.Sanghvi think that among the twins separated at > birth one > > has gone in the right direction while the other one > has been > > spoiled. > > > > But talking about the same-ness, at one level even the > > residents of Amritsar and Lahore have been very > different > > (even before 1947), and at another level, the people > of > > Kabul and Kandhamal are the same, even today. Am I not > > right? > > > > Yousuf > > > > > > --- On Thu, 3/26/09, Wali Arifi > > wrote: > > > > > From: Wali Arifi > > > Subject: [Reader-list] The Epitaph of a Mind: Vir > > Sanghvi > > > To: "Sarai" > > > > Date: Thursday, March 26, 2009, 11:07 AM > > > Vir Sanghvi, Hindustan Times > > > March 07, 2009 > > > First Published: 21:47 IST(7/3/2009) > > > > > > The same people? Surely not > > > > > > Few things annoy me as much as the claim often > > advanced by > > > well-meaning but woolly- headed (and usually > Punjabi) > > > liberals to the > > > effect that when it comes to India and Pakistan, > > > "We’re all the same > > > people, yaar." > > > > > > This may have been true once upon a time. Before > 1947, > > > Pakistan was > > > part of undivided India and you could claim that > > Punjabis > > > from West > > > Punjab (what is now Pakistan) were as Indian as, > say, > > > Tamils from > > > Madras. > > > > > > But time has a way of moving on. And while the > gap > > between > > > our > > > Punjabis (from east Punjab which is now the only > > Punjab > > > left in India) > > > and our Tamils may actually have narrowed, thanks > to > > > improved > > > communications, shared popular culture and > greater > > physical > > > mobility, > > > the gap between Indians and Pakistanis has now > widened > > to > > > the extent > > > that we are no longer the same people in any > > significant > > > sense. > > > > > > This was brought home to me most clearly by two > major > > > events over the > > > last few weeks. > > > > > > The first of these was the attack on the Sri > Lankan > > cricket > > > team on > > > the streets of Lahore. In their defence, > Pakistanis > > said > > > that they > > > were powerless to act against the terrorists > because > > > religious > > > fanaticism was growing. Each day more misguided > > youngsters > > > joined > > > jihadi outfits and the law and order situation > > worsened. > > > > > > Further, they added, things had got so bad that > in the > > > tribal areas > > > the government of Pakistan had agreed to suspend > the > > rule > > > of law under > > > pressure from the Taliban and had conceded that > sharia > > law > > > would reign > > > instead. Interestingly, while most civilised > liberals > > > should have been > > > appalled by this surrender to the forces of > extremism, > > many > > > Pakistanis > > > defended this concession. > > > > > > Imran Khan (Keble College, Oxford, 1973-76) even > > declared > > > that sharia > > > law would be better because justice would be > dispensed > > more > > > swiftly! > > > (I know this is politically incorrect but the > Loin of > > the > > > Punjab’s > > > defence of sharia law reminded me of the famous > > Private Eye > > > cover when > > > his marriage to Jemima Goldsmith was announced. > The > > Eye > > > carried a > > > picture of Khan speaking to Jemima’s father. > “Can > > I > > > have your > > > daughter’s hand?” Imran was supposedly asking > > James > > > Goldsmith. “Why? > > > Has she been caught shoplifting?” Goldsmith > replied. > > So > > > much for > > > sharia law.) > > > > > > The second contrasting event was one that took > place > > in Los > > > Angeles > > > but which was perhaps celebrated more in India > than in > > any > > > other > > > country in the world. Three Indians won Oscars: > A.R. > > > Rahman, Resul > > > Pookutty and Gulzar. > > > > > > Their victory set off a frenzy of rejoicing. We > were > > proud > > > of our > > > countrymen. We were pleased that India’s > > entertainment > > > industry and > > > its veterans had been recognised at an > international > > > platform. And all > > > three men became even bigger heroes than they > already > > were. > > > > > > But here’s the thing: Not one of them is a > Hindu. > > > > > > Can you imagine such a thing happening in > Pakistan? > > Can you > > > even > > > conceive of a situation where the whole country > would > > > celebrate the > > > victory of three members of two religious > minorities? > > For > > > that matter, > > > can you even imagine a situation where people > from > > > religious > > > minorities would have got to the top of their > fields > > and > > > were, > > > therefore, in the running for international > awards? > > > > > > On the one hand, you have Pakistan imposing > sharia > > law, > > > doing deals > > > with the Taliban, teaching hatred in madrasas, > > declaring > > > jihad on the > > > world and trying to kill innocent Sri Lankan > > cricketers. On > > > the other, > > > you have the triumph of Indian secularism. > > > > > > The same people? > > > > > > Surely not. > > > > > > We are defined by our nationality. They choose to > > define > > > themselves by > > > their religion. > > > > > > But it gets even more complicated. As you > probably > > know, > > > Rahman was > > > born Dilip Kumar. He converted to Islam when he > was > > 21. His > > > religious > > > preferences made no difference to his prospects. > Even > > now, > > > his music > > > cuts across all religious boundaries. He’s as > much > > at > > > home with Sufi > > > music as he is with > > > bhajans. Nor does he have any problem with saying > > ‘Vande > > > Mataram’. > > > > > > Now, think of a similar situation in Pakistan. > Can you > > > conceive of a > > > Pakistani composer who converted to Hinduism at > the > > age of > > > 21 and > > > still went on to become a national hero? Under > sharia > > law, > > > they’d > > > probably have to execute him. > > > > > > Resul Pookutty’s is an even more interesting > case. > > Until > > > you realise > > > that Malayalis tend to put an ‘e’ where the > rest > > of us > > > would put an > > > ‘a,’ (Ravi becomes Revi and sometimes the > Gulf > > becomes > > > the Gelf), you > > > cannot work out that his name derives from > Rasool, a > > fairly > > > obviously > > > Islamic name. > > > > > > But here’s the point: even when you point out > to > > people > > > that Pookutty > > > is in fact a Muslim, they don’t really care. It > > makes no > > > difference to > > > them. He’s an authentic Indian hero, his > religion is > > > irrelevant. > > > > > > Can you imagine Pakistan being indifferent to a > > man’s > > > religion? Can > > > you believe that Pakistanis would not know that > one of > > > their Oscar > > > winners came from a religious minority? And would > any > > > Pakistani have > > > dared bridge the religious divide in the manner > Resul > > did > > > by referring > > > to the primeval power of Om in his acceptance > speech? > > > > > > The same people? > > > > > > Surely not. > > > > > > Most interesting of all is the case of Gulzar who > many > > > Indians believe > > > is a Muslim. He is not. He is a Sikh. And his > real > > name is > > > Sampooran > > > Singh Kalra. > > > > > > So why does he have a Muslim name? > > > > > > It’s a good story and he told it on my TV show > some > > years > > > ago. He was > > > born in West Pakistan and came over the border > during > > the > > > bloody days > > > of Partition. He had seen so much hatred and > religious > > > violence on > > > both sides, he said, that he was determined never > to > > lose > > > himself to > > > that kind of blind religious prejudice and > fanaticism. > > > > > > Rather than blame Muslims for the violence > inflicted > > on his > > > community > > > — after all, Hindus and Sikhs behaved with > equal > > ferocity > > > — he adopted > > > a Muslim pen name to remind himself that his > identity > > was > > > beyond > > > religion. He still writes in Urdu and considers > it > > > irrelevant whether > > > a person is a Sikh, a Muslim or a Hindu. > > > > > > Let’s forget about political correctness and > come > > clean: > > > can you see > > > such a thing happening in Pakistan? Can you > actually > > > conceive of a > > > famous Pakistani Muslim who adopts a Hindu or > Sikh > > name out > > > of choice > > > to demonstrate the irrelevance of religion? > > > > > > My point, exactly. > > > > > > What all those misguided liberals who keep > blathering > > on > > > about us > > > being the same people forget is that in the > 60-odd > > years > > > since > > > Independence, our two nations have traversed very > > different > > > paths. > > > > > > Pakistan was founded on the basis of Islam. It > still > > > defines itself in > > > terms of Islam. And over the next decade as it > > destroys > > > itself, it > > > will be because of Islamic extremism. > > > > > > India was founded on the basis that religion had > no > > role in > > > determining citizenship or nationhood. An Indian > can > > belong > > > to any > > > religion in the world and face no discrimination > in > > his > > > rights as a > > > citizen. > > > > > > It is nobody’s case that India is a perfect > society > > or > > > that Muslims > > > face no discrimination. But only a fool would > deny > > that in > > > the last > > > six decades, we have travelled a long way towards > > religious > > > equality. > > > In the early days of independent India, a Yusuf > Khan > > had to > > > call > > > himself Dilip Kumar for fear of attracting > religious > > > prejudice. > > > > > > In today’s India, a Dilip Kumar can change his > name > > to > > > A.R. Rahman and > > > nobody really gives a damn either way. > > > > > > So think back to the events of the last few > weeks. To > > the > > > murderous > > > attack on innocent Sri Lankan cricketers by > jihadi > > fanatics > > > in a > > > society that is being buried by Islamic > extremism. And > > to > > > the triumphs > > > of Indian secularism. > > > > > > Same people? > > > > > > Don’t make me laugh. > > > _________________________________________ > > > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and > the > > city. > > > Critiques & Collaborations > > > To subscribe: send an email to > > > reader-list-request at sarai.net with subscribe in > the > > subject > > > header. > > > To unsubscribe: > > > > https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > > > List archive: > > > > > > <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> > > > > > > > > _________________________________________ > > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the > city. > > Critiques & Collaborations > > To subscribe: send an email to > > reader-list-request at sarai.net with subscribe in the > subject > > header. > > To unsubscribe: > > https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > > List archive: > > > <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> From rakesh.rnbdj at gmail.com Fri Apr 3 21:40:43 2009 From: rakesh.rnbdj at gmail.com (Rakesh Iyer) Date: Fri, 3 Apr 2009 21:40:43 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Mallika Sarabhai's Public Meeting in JNU on 31stMarch In-Reply-To: <004501c9b45e$0b5c1780$0201a8c0@limo> References: <000901c9b121$26989220$0201a8c0@limo> <003901c9b201$d086b3d0$0201a8c0@limo> <004501c9b45e$0b5c1780$0201a8c0@limo> Message-ID: Dear Bipin ji (and all, especially Pawan ji) First of all, I am sorry if the tenor and some part of the content I used in my previous mail has hurt you, which makes you say that this is your last mail to me. I respect your opinion, but my point is the same as that of yours, which is that one should also go with the present. However, having said that, the principles of natural justice and human rights must also be considered while taking decisions, so also the principle of reason. Otherwise we may be blinded by happenings around us. Now, let me come and answer the few important points you have put across: 1) There is only one particular reason for which I find Advani appealing as such, which is that he was the man who showed (or publicly pointed out)that Muslims are actually appeased in India. Yes, Muslim appeasement is rampant among today's 'secular' parties. But in my mind, appeasement only means 'pleasing someone for the sake of pleasing'. In other words, Laloo, Mulayam, Mayawati, Chandrababu Naidu, Left (Communists too), and others also appease Muslims, as they only wish to win their votes, rather than doing something for the benefit of Muslims which can help them in the long term. The same thing has been pointed out in the Sachar Committee Report. My problem with the BJP is that they use the wrong meaning of appeasement. According to their tenor and content, Muslim appeasement means only Muslims are benefited. My contention is that Muslims are not benefiting at all from the measures supposedly directed at them, by parties supposedly getting their votes by and large. As for Advani, his Rath Yatra had led to second biggest riots in India. Nobody can forget the kind of politics his party, as well as the so called seculars played in order to rally behind their vote bank around them. 2) I feel the issue of Bangladeshi immigrants is being mixed up with secularism. It is certainly true that in today's era of states in the world, citizens from one state should not be allowed to migrate to other states to turn as voters, and change demographies in order to vote. However, I think this issue has been mishandled quite a bit. So, let me clarify my view on this. Most of these immigrants would be travelling to India, primarily on account of improving their economic situation. I don't think they would be voters who migrate to India only to vote and then go back to Bangladesh. Their plight is made use of by possibly Indian politicians in order to change demographics of constituencies and thereby win votes. Since there are certain procedures to secure citizenship of India, based on which you can get voting rights, it's certainly true that this is quite wrong and illegal. However, that does not mean we as a state should not strive to be responsible towards these citizens. While such immigrants should not be granted right to vote unless they secure Indian citizenship, I believe that since these immigrants come to India to better their economic status, we too should strive to improve conditions of livelihood for them as far as possible. As far as secularism is concerned, I don't feel these issues are inter-related. 3) I have no objections with a party like BJP saying that Congress only plays politics for minority benefit, and hence we want Hindu votes to be behind us. But why organize riots for that, like post-Godhra? What is the logic behind that? Moreover, are their concerns based on reason? When the Sachar Committee report concludes that Muslims are poor even after 50 years of Congress rule, then how have Muslims benefited from the Congress rule? And how is then the BJP's allegation tenable? My second allegation comes from misusing religion. Religion can be used to build societies and even bring together people across different faiths, or even for improving the unity of India, as Gandhi showed. Instead, we have situations where BJP fights for Hindu vote bank and Congress/some other secular party fights for Muslim vote bank after creating riots, and ensuring police don't administer the situation properly. So, religion is now being used to destroy India, rather than to build it. Is this right? 4) I think you didn't get the importance of what I said Bipin jee. Suppose you have been living in a house belonging to your family since say about 100-200 years ago, and you have been now asked to leave that because either a temple/mosque existed on that place supposedly (not proven) and it was destroyed later, only to result in your house being built, and you have a family, would you leave it, without any compensation? And even if compensation were given, would you leave it? The fact is that today, Nandigram people didn't wish to leave their lands on which they worked, in the name of industrialization, because it affected their livelihood, and the way governments ensure rehabilitation of displaced people is known to everybody. Similarly, Sardar Sarovar dam oustees have yet not been rehabilitated properly. And most of these oustees have to be rehabilitated by the Madhya Pradesh govt. (not Gujarat govt.), and yet this has not been done properly, so much so, that the SC had issued an order to do the very same thing. When people attach value to the land on which they live because of their livelihood, and don't want to leave it on account of industrialzation or building dams, how are you expecting them to leave their land on account of religion? Secondly, as far as Babri Masjid is concerned, I agree that the Muslim elite had a role to play in ensuring that the Masjid was not given and thus communalize the situation. But equally, it was the VHP's stubbornness in only asking for the Masjid site as the place to build the Ram Mandir. After all, Ram is of Ayodhya. Why not have his temple built anywhere in Ayodhya? Why only the Masjid site? Is there any proof that Ram was born there? And even if a temple was there which was destroyed, is it so big a compromise that one would lose his head were he/she to shift the temple site? Thirdly, I am not interested in this mandir-masjid imbroglio. After all, there are much more important issues to look at. But these are questions I have for the VHP and the Babri Masjid Action Committee which want to communalize the situation in the name of this fight. And hence I use reason to argue upon this. As far as faith in Ram/Krishna is concerned, I have my faith in Ram and Krishna as well. And I like the Gita. For me, it's an important piece of literature which has its effects all across the Indian society. However, that does not mean we misuse the name of Ram and Krishna, or misuse the message of Gita, to direct 'anger of Hindus' against 'Muslims' for vote bank purposes, superceding the question of development. And no Ram/Krishna/Gita would approve killing of innocents, be it for whatever purpose. And unlike you, I think Gita is a piece of when should war be conducted. The Mahabharata as a whole stresses on peace; the Gita stresses on the times when war is required unfortunately. By the way, Paigamber and Christ are considered sons of God, not God themselves. According to Islam, there is a distance between God and humans. About Christianity, I don't know. 5) Sir, you have stated that people should be taken as guilty if they are named by the police. I can't accept that simply because that way, the police can frame anybody. Now the UAPA (Unlawful Activities Prevention Act, Amendment) has been passed in Parliament, if I tomorrow protest on a simple issue of increasing wages under NREGA, the police can arrest me and impose an anti-terror case against me under this act. Then I would be declared a terrorist, when I was none. Is that acceptable? You may say, this is far-fetched. In the Hyderabad Mecca Masjid blasts case, the investigative agencies had argued for 124 (not sure about exact number, but around 120 or so) people arrested to be convicted. Not a single one of them faced conviction, as they faced some very absurd charges. Infact, I read somewhere that the judge had commented that the police should first go and learn how to investigate cases before actually taking up such cases. What a shame!! In one of the PUCL meetings in Chennai here, which I attended, one man related his own harrowing experience, where his fathers' taxi was said to have hidden a bomb inside it, and policemen spread the rumour to arrest his father, and then he was made to pay a bribe, in order to secure the release of both his father and taxi, and the case closed without any knowledge of the media. My point is that with today's police, it is very easy to frame cases against people. And when our police doesn't have the capability to solve murder cases like 'Aarushi Murder case', how can I believe it has the capability to solve tough cases like those related to bomb blasts. Hence, Muslims can't be accused of having actually undertaken all these blasts (Ahmedabad, Bangalore, Guwahati etc.) until proven guilty. Similar goes the case of Sadhvi Pragya as far as Malegaon blasts is concerned. There can be no double standards on this. As far as Afzal Guru is concerned, on the basis of the police reports against him, the Delhi High Court and even the SC had stated that Delhi police have investigated the matter in a very shoddy way. Moreover, it isn't as if Afzal hasn't accepted that he hasn't done anything. However, the kind of evidence on which he has been charged, is what the human right activists have been against. Since, you would not believe me, I would like you to read the following link (by Arundhati Roy. Now for one moment, forget that you don't like her as her ideology is very different from that of yours. Read the content, and then tell me what your questions are. At least for once, read that with an open mind as well): http://www.outlookindia.com/full.asp?fodname=20061030&fname=Cover+Story+(F)&sid=1 I hope all read this link, and then decide for themselves whether he should be hanged or not. For me, I believe that let us re-investigate the case within 5 months, and if he is found to be guilty, hang him on 13th December 2009. That would be the perfect day for him. 6) Any law, whether it should be introduced or not, should be determined by all the constituents affected in the process. In the case of POTA, it should include experts of law, experts from police and law & order dept, those from the home ministry related to internal security, as well as human right experts (because the act is said to infringe on human rights). They should in totality decide whether the law is right or wrong. My issue with POTA is that firstly, it doesn't stop suicide bombers from carrying out bombings. Secondly, the low conviction rate when it was implemented, meant that mostly innocents were framed under POTA, and the proper criminals were caught rarely. Thirdly, from the media reports, it comes out that it was misused, mainly against Muslims. And the low conviction rate only proves this. Inspite of this, if police officials think it stops terror acts, then they should provide ample proofs of the same. And I agree with you on this, that ultimately all these experts should combine together to decide whether we require such a special law on terror or not. Anyways, most of the amendments introduced in POTA (or even its sections) are already there in the IPC/CRPC. Then I don't understand what is the need of a separate law. 7) Any root based development does not only mean sadak, bijli and infrastructure. It means proper water supply, health and sanitation facilities, proper education, and more importantly, the major issues of 'roti, kapda and makaan'. When all these mails came in that Gujarat was worse on some of the major social indicators of development (like female literacy, health programmes for women and children etc.), so much so that it was being compared to poor nations of Africa, then how can we claim that the development, even if it has taken place, is just and equal? As I said, any government must be judged on the basis of whether it has allowed efficiency and equity in the growth of the people. Modi and the BJP govt. in Gujarat may have done very well when it comes to efficiency, but in case of equity, they have failed to a certain extent. And as for power and sadak, my issue is that when people are below the poverty line, neither would they be receiving any power nor would they use vehicles for which sadak is important. Moreover, while some credit for efficiency can go to Modi and his govt, a substantial portion of credit should go to Gujaratis as people for being good entrepreuneurs. After all, if Modi is such a good CM, then let him go and be the Bihar CM's post. That can tell us how good is he. To a certain extent, your point also reflects this, when you say he speeded up development. I appreciate that. 8) About the Narmada dam, the first problem I had with this issue is regarding the rehabilitation of displaced people. Not for nothing does SC periodically remind the MP govt of rehabilitating these people properly. Not for nothing do these people come to Bhopal regularly and sit on dharna for proper rehabilitation. After all, it's their own homes which are dealt with. Sir, everybody has a name. And that name should be respected. How good would it be if you were to be referred to derogatorily by your caste/religion? A name gives a respect, and one can certainly give it for a woman who is elder to us, even if in your view, she is doing a wrong thing. Secondly, while I can agree that I don't have 2009 data, since you are chiding me for this, I would kindly request you to give me the 2009 data (or even 08) to prove me wrong. I would be very happy for this. After all, for me the more important issue is whether this dam project is actually useful for Gujarat or not. The observations made from 1993 to 2004 make you have pity on me. Hence, I would like you to at least put the recent data to prove that I am incorrect. After all, even I can correct my stand on this issue if I were wrong. And I am willing to change my stand if found to be wrong. And anything foreign may not be bad. After all even the VHP receives a lot of funding from American Hindu societies and businesses, which it then uses to distort history and get arms for violence. And Medha Patkar has not practiced any violence either in Gujarat or Madhya Pradesh to the best of my knowledge. As for the part that she has toyed with funds, that is something which can be investigated, provided anyone launches a case against her on that account. 9) Here again, I have been chided for producing data of older times (I don't know 4 years is past, but again past is quite relative). See sir, the data is based on the 61st National Sample Survey Scheme, which was conducted in 2004. My contention is that as of now, I didn't get any research based on the sample surveys conducted after this. While I accept my fault that I am using data based on 4 years ago, the fact is that you have not shown any data of upto 2009 or 2008 to prove that I am wrong grossly. Since you yourself say that things or policies of any govt, can start taking affect only after 2.5/3 years, the UPA govt would have shown its effect only after 2007, and even then as the CAG report goes, the NREGA implementation is only about 14% or so. And even the World Bank had stated that about 80% of Indian people earn less than $2 per day (this $2 is not in American dollar terms, but in PPP or purchasing power parity terms) as per 2006 data. My contention is that if you think I am wrong, I would like you to present data from the recent years ahead of what I have presented, for those are the data sets available to me, from which I made the assessment. And if your theory of leakages in public funds is right, there is hardly any incentive for me to believe that things can be very much different from what they were 3-4 years ago. I have no regrets other than that. And even I would be glad if you could put up such data as required. 10) I have no way to say that the subsidy Tatas got is justified or not. What I wished to say there was that when business houses get double or triple the subsidy bill incurred on food and agriculture, they should not be cribbing about it. After all, the latter is a way of bringing about equity in the system in a certain way (especially the populist schemes, if properly implemented, actually ensure equity), whereas can't even ensure winning of elections, though on a long term could bring about development and prosperity if properly channeled. 11) Nationalism and Patriotism are different for me in one sense: patriotism is love for the land because the land you love is the place related to your culture, your way of life, your language, your religion, your values etc. In other words, you connect to yourself through the land. On the other hand, nationalism is just love for your land (even if none of these are same), just because somebody tells me that this belongs to my state. For example, a person living on the Tripura -Bangladesh border would be much closer culturally to Bangladesh rather than New Delhi or Maharashtra. Even then, the Tripura person has to believe that India belongs to him (or even Maharashtra land belongs to him) because he is an Indian, and Bangladesh is foreign to him. This is a googly for me. After all, what is closer culturally, you can have more affinity only with that. Not with something with which you don't share anything. 12) I am not a Communist, and neither do I own or run the CPI or any other communist party. Hence, please do not refer by statements like ' your communists' or other phrases like this. 13) I would have agreed to your point that 60% voting is a referendum. However, when I heard news items that candidates were paid by intelligence agencies to contest elections and get their supporters to vote (with the aim of ensuring that the J & K elections could be termed successful), I was stumped. And the biased way in which our army behaved during the Amarnath protests (no killings by Army in Jammu but many killed in Kashmir) makes me suspicious about the way they control these protests. (Thanks to Perveiz Bukhari who is a member of this forum) Hence, I would like to have a referendum. From your statement, it seems we are confident that Kashmiris want to stay back in India. A referendum would be an excellent way to confirm that. After all, if they do want to stay back, I would be happy as it is a shot in the arm for our Indian democracy. Why are we so afraid of it. It won't require much expense to have a referendum, when compared to costs incurred for national elections. 14) You hit the nail on the head as far as the efficiency part is concerned. Since private companies are very efficient in creating capital, let them do so and hand over a part of their revenue as taxes to the government. Let the government use these revenues in order to ensure that through schemes like NREGA and other employment generation schemes in the urban sector, not only the necessary infrastructure is created, but moreover, poor can also earn in their villages, don't have to migrate to urban areas in search of employment, and their livelihood improves. And certainly, here is where we have to plug leakages. The government would have to take over the role of ensuring equity in development and growth, because the private model of development feeds on efficiency only and hence they won't bother about equity or employment of poor people. And populist schemes can be undertaken to help the poor people, but ultimately the idea should to be to combine the two and ensure that people earn well and pay for their buying so that ultimately they can live with pride instead of just being dependent on the govt totally for food. And dekhiye jee, what I said in the previous mail is that we need to look at issues from micro based. That's something I like in Dreze. Here too, in our mails, both of us have looked at issues only from macro angle. But that can't help the situation. I never meant to demean you or your view. But I thought we need to shift from discussions on macro based figures to micro based realities of India, for that can signal a different kind of situation in our country. Thanks to Aashish for the last point which I have put up here. Aashish is someone who is a member of this list, and a great person to discuss issues with. Sometimes I wonder how skewed my outlook would have been if I hadn't met him and discussed these issues with him. My only issue with this is that I would like to experiment at sectors where the govt can intervene. That would be interesting to see as well. And for Pawan jee, you have not mentioned anywhere about Mallika jee. My thoughts on that account were with respect to Bipin jee's mail, so please don't get angry. Bipin jee, you have your views with respect to Mallika jee, but I would say that let us first look with open mind at the kind of prospects she brings to her constituency, and then decide whether she is fine or not. That is how reason demands of us. Just deriding someone for being secular, is wrong. Secularism is a right virtue, provided it is properly practised. Regards Rakesh From monica at sarai.net Fri Apr 3 23:15:02 2009 From: monica at sarai.net (Monica Narula) Date: Fri, 3 Apr 2009 23:15:02 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] CopySouth Report on Horacio Potel Message-ID: <083F23B5-80EF-491C-94AB-141D1116DF9E@sarai.net> (Taken from Nettime) From: Roberto Verzola Dear friends, Please circulate widely this story about how a philosophy professor in Argentina is being persecuted for making available on his Web site Spanish translations of Jacques Derrida, a French philosopher who died in 2004. Thanks and greetings to all, Roberto Verzola *Argentinean professor charged criminally for promoting access to knowledge* By the CopySouth Research Group A philosophy professor in Argentina, Horacio Potel, is facing criminal charges for maintaining a website devoted to translations of works by French philosopher Jacques Derrida. His alleged crime: copyright infringement. Here is Professor Potel’s sad story. “I was fascinated at the unlimited possibilities offered by the internet for knowledge exchange”, explains Horacio Potel, a Professor of Philosophy at the Universidad Nacional de Lanús in Buenos Aires. In 1999, he set up a personal website to collect essays and other works of some well-known philosophers, starting with the German Friedrich Nietzsche and Martin Heidegger. Potel’s websites – *Nietzsche in Spanish *, *Heidegger in Spanish * and *Derrida in Spanish * – eventually developed into growing online libraries of freely downloadable philosophical texts. *Nietzsche in Spanish * alone has already received more than four million visitors. One of Potel’s best known websites, www.jacquesderrida.com.ar focused on his favourite French philosopher, Algerian-born Jacques Derrida (1930-2004) , who was the founder of “deconstruction”. On this website Potel posted many of the philosopher’s works, translated into Spanish, as well as discussion forums, research results, biographies, images and the usual pieces of information typical of this type of online resource. "I wanted to share my love for philosophy with other people. The idea was disseminating the texts and giving them some sort of arrangement" declares Potel. To Potel, what he was doing was what professors have done for centuries: helping students to get access to knowledge. “It is not possible to find the same comprehensive collection of works that was available at Derrida’s and Heidegger’s websites either in libraries or in bookstores in Argentina”, says Potel. In fact, only two bookstores in Argentina’s largest city, Buenos Aires, carry some books by Derrida and many of his works are seldom available to readers. Potel spent decades visiting libraries and bookstores to collect the material he posted on his online library. “Many of those texts are already out of print”, he says. Books that are out of print cannot be purchased, but they are often still protected by copyright laws. Furthermore, Potel finds the prices charged by foreign publishers, such as the Mexican companies Porrua and Cal y Arena , “prohibitive” by Argentinean standards. He gives as an example the price of a recently published booklet of a conference given by Derrida. Printed in large typeface, the booklet has about eighty pages, although the text would certainly fit in twelve. It was being sold for 162 Argentinean pesos, around 42 US dollars at current exchange rates. Even at that steep price copies were very hard to find within two weeks after they arrived in Argentina. Potel relates how he had to walk around Buenos Aires for an entire afternoon in order to find a single copy of the booklet. But the price of foreign books is not the only concern in this case. For Derrida’s works to be accessible to the Spanish-speaking world they have to be translated. While the Spanish versions of the texts available on the website were not done by him, Potel made corrections to a few of them, since some of Derrida’s Spanish language books have been quite poorly translated. To make the texts easier to understand for readers, Potel also linked each translation to the original text, as well as to other works cited by Derrida. Eventually, Potel’s popular website caught the attention of a publisher. A criminal case against Potel was initiated on December 31, 2008 after a complaint was lodged by a French company, the publishing house Les Éditions de Minuit . They have published only one of Derrida’s books and it was in French. Minuit’s complaint was passed on to the French Embassy in Argentina and it became the basis of the Argentina Book Chamber ’s legal action against Potel. The Argentina Book Chamber boasts of its doubtful precedents of having been responsible for a police raid at the Faculty of Arts and Letters of the University of Buenos Aires and for having managed to condemn some professors for encouraging the students to photocopy books and articles. “The view of the police entering the Puán building is remembered with astonishment by many members of the academic community” says a report. The next possible effects of the legal action against Potel are the wiretapping of his phone line, the interception of his email accounts and an incursion into his house to “determine the actual place where the illegal act occurred”. Potel has already removed all the content from his website, a decision which he regards as a tragedy. “These websites are my best work. They are the result of many hours of work and have been entirely funded by me”, he says. Those who access www.jacquesderrida.com.ar today find a warning: “This website has been taken down due to a legal action initiated by the Argentina Book Chamber”. Potel insists that he “never intended to make a profit” out of Derrida’s works. Yet he faces a possible criminal sentence of one month up to six years in prison for violation of Argentina’s intellectual property laws, according to a February 28, 2009 story by the online version of Argentina's largest newspaper, Clarín . If Derrida was alive, he would probably be thanking Potel for bringing translations of his texts to millions of Spanish-speaking readers, who otherwise would never have had the opportunity to read the works of the French philosopher. Here’s what the founder of deconstruction said about freedom within the university: “And yet I maintain that the idea of this space of the academic type has to be symbolically protected by a kind of absolute immunity, as if its interior were inviolable; I believe (this is like a profession of faith which I address to you and submit to your judgment) that this is an idea that we must reaffirm, declare, and profess endlessly. [...] This freedom of immunity of the university and *par excellence* of its Humanities is something to which we must lay claim, while committing ourselves to it with all our might. Not only in a verbal and declaratory fashion, but in work, in act and in what we make happen with events.” (Jacques Derrida, “The University Without Condition” in *Without Alibi*, ed. & trans. by Peggy Kamuf, Stanford University Press, 2002, p. 210) Those who profess to “protect” Derrida’s “intellectual property rights” are now persecuting a professor who is simply following the French philosopher’s teachings and popularising them in the Spanish-speaking world. The CopySouth Research Group calls on the Argentina Book Chamber and the government of Argentina to drop these criminal charges immediately and to respect and protect professor Potel’s academic freedom in providing popular access to philosophical works. In any conflict between intellectual property and the right to education and to access knowledge, we choose education and we urge those who share the same concerns to spread the word widely and rapidly. You can send letters to Les Éditions de Minuit (7 Rue Bernard Palissy, 75006 Paris 06, France, email: contact at leseditionsdeminuit.fr ), the Argentina Book Chamber (Av. Belgrano 1580, Piso 4, C1093AAQ Buenos Aires, Argentina, email: cal at editores.org.ar ) and the Argentina Federal Council of Education (Pizzurno 935, P.B. of. 5, C1020ACA Buenos Aires, Argentina, email: cfce at me.gov.ar). Monica Narula Raqs Media Collective Sarai-CSDS www.raqsmediacollective.net www.sarai.net From pawan.durani at gmail.com Fri Apr 3 23:42:38 2009 From: pawan.durani at gmail.com (Pawan Durani) Date: Fri, 3 Apr 2009 23:42:38 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Mallika Sarabhai's Public Meeting in JNU on 31stMarch In-Reply-To: References: <000901c9b121$26989220$0201a8c0@limo> <003901c9b201$d086b3d0$0201a8c0@limo> <004501c9b45e$0b5c1780$0201a8c0@limo> Message-ID: <6b79f1a70904031112o3c30c0bdle1e45c86e6bdf967@mail.gmail.com> Rakesh Iyer Wrote :" And the biased way in which our army behaved during the Amarnath protests (no killings by Army in Jammu but many killed in Kashmir) makes me suspicious about the way they control these protests. (Thanks to Perveiz Bukhari who is a member of this forum)" Mr Iyer , You are a very passionate guy. However your knowledge is half baked. Would you kindly check how many hindus were martyred by army during Amarnath Agitation in Jammu , Kathua and elsewhere . Please do check and correct yourself before we can proceed further with the discussion. The kind of propogonda you make , justify the separatists and that is unfortunate. Rgds Pawan On Fri, Apr 3, 2009 at 9:40 PM, Rakesh Iyer wrote: > Dear Bipin ji (and all, especially Pawan ji) > > First of all, I am sorry if the tenor and some part of the content I used > in > my previous mail has hurt you, which makes you say that this is your last > mail to me. I respect your opinion, but my point is the same as that of > yours, which is that one should also go with the present. However, having > said that, the principles of natural justice and human rights must also be > considered while taking decisions, so also the principle of reason. > Otherwise we may be blinded by happenings around us. > > Now, let me come and answer the few important points you have put across: > > 1) There is only one particular reason for which I find Advani appealing as > such, which is that he was the man who showed (or publicly pointed out)that > Muslims are actually appeased in India. Yes, Muslim appeasement is rampant > among today's 'secular' parties. But in my mind, appeasement only means > 'pleasing someone for the sake of pleasing'. In other words, Laloo, > Mulayam, > Mayawati, Chandrababu Naidu, Left (Communists too), and others also appease > Muslims, as they only wish to win their votes, rather than doing something > for the benefit of Muslims which can help them in the long term. The same > thing has been pointed out in the Sachar Committee Report. > > My problem with the BJP is that they use the wrong meaning of appeasement. > According to their tenor and content, Muslim appeasement means only Muslims > are benefited. My contention is that Muslims are not benefiting at all from > the measures supposedly directed at them, by parties supposedly getting > their votes by and large. > > As for Advani, his Rath Yatra had led to second biggest riots in India. > Nobody can forget the kind of politics his party, as well as the so called > seculars played in order to rally behind their vote bank around them. > > 2) I feel the issue of Bangladeshi immigrants is being mixed up with > secularism. It is certainly true that in today's era of states in the > world, > citizens from one state should not be allowed to migrate to other states to > turn as voters, and change demographies in order to vote. However, I think > this issue has been mishandled quite a bit. So, let me clarify my view on > this. > > Most of these immigrants would be travelling to India, primarily on account > of improving their economic situation. I don't think they would be voters > who migrate to India only to vote and then go back to Bangladesh. Their > plight is made use of by possibly Indian politicians in order to change > demographics of constituencies and thereby win votes. > > Since there are certain procedures to secure citizenship of India, based on > which you can get voting rights, it's certainly true that this is quite > wrong and illegal. However, that does not mean we as a state should not > strive to be responsible towards these citizens. While such immigrants > should not be granted right to vote unless they secure Indian citizenship, > I > believe that since these immigrants come to India to better their economic > status, we too should strive to improve conditions of livelihood for them > as > far as possible. > > As far as secularism is concerned, I don't feel these issues are > inter-related. > > 3) I have no objections with a party like BJP saying that Congress only > plays politics for minority benefit, and hence we want Hindu votes to be > behind us. But why organize riots for that, like post-Godhra? What is the > logic behind that? Moreover, are their concerns based on reason? When the > Sachar Committee report concludes that Muslims are poor even after 50 years > of Congress rule, then how have Muslims benefited from the Congress rule? > And how is then the BJP's allegation tenable? > > My second allegation comes from misusing religion. Religion can be used to > build societies and even bring together people across different faiths, or > even for improving the unity of India, as Gandhi showed. Instead, we have > situations where BJP fights for Hindu vote bank and Congress/some other > secular party fights for Muslim vote bank after creating riots, and > ensuring > police don't administer the situation properly. So, religion is now being > used to destroy India, rather than to build it. Is this right? > > 4) I think you didn't get the importance of what I said Bipin jee. Suppose > you have been living in a house belonging to your family since say about > 100-200 years ago, and you have been now asked to leave that because either > a temple/mosque existed on that place supposedly (not proven) and it was > destroyed later, only to result in your house being built, and you have a > family, would you leave it, without any compensation? And even if > compensation were given, would you leave it? > > The fact is that today, Nandigram people didn't wish to leave their lands > on > which they worked, in the name of industrialization, because it affected > their livelihood, and the way governments ensure rehabilitation of > displaced > people is known to everybody. Similarly, Sardar Sarovar dam oustees have > yet > not been rehabilitated properly. And most of these oustees have to be > rehabilitated by the Madhya Pradesh govt. (not Gujarat govt.), and yet this > has not been done properly, so much so, that the SC had issued an order to > do the very same thing. > > When people attach value to the land on which they live because of their > livelihood, and don't want to leave it on account of industrialzation or > building dams, how are you expecting them to leave their land on account of > religion? > > Secondly, as far as Babri Masjid is concerned, I agree that the Muslim > elite > had a role to play in ensuring that the Masjid was not given and thus > communalize the situation. But equally, it was the VHP's stubbornness in > only asking for the Masjid site as the place to build the Ram Mandir. After > all, Ram is of Ayodhya. Why not have his temple built anywhere in Ayodhya? > Why only the Masjid site? Is there any proof that Ram was born there? And > even if a temple was there which was destroyed, is it so big a compromise > that one would lose his head were he/she to shift the temple site? > > Thirdly, I am not interested in this mandir-masjid imbroglio. After all, > there are much more important issues to look at. But these are questions I > have for the VHP and the Babri Masjid Action Committee which want to > communalize the situation in the name of this fight. And hence I use reason > to argue upon this. > > As far as faith in Ram/Krishna is concerned, I have my faith in Ram and > Krishna as well. And I like the Gita. For me, it's an important piece of > literature which has its effects all across the Indian society. However, > that does not mean we misuse the name of Ram and Krishna, or misuse the > message of Gita, to direct 'anger of Hindus' against 'Muslims' for vote > bank > purposes, superceding the question of development. And no Ram/Krishna/Gita > would approve killing of innocents, be it for whatever purpose. And unlike > you, I think Gita is a piece of when should war be conducted. The > Mahabharata as a whole stresses on peace; the Gita stresses on the times > when war is required unfortunately. > > By the way, Paigamber and Christ are considered sons of God, not God > themselves. According to Islam, there is a distance between God and humans. > About Christianity, I don't know. > > 5) Sir, you have stated that people should be taken as guilty if they are > named by the police. I can't accept that simply because that way, the > police > can frame anybody. Now the UAPA (Unlawful Activities Prevention Act, > Amendment) has been passed in Parliament, if I tomorrow protest on a simple > issue of increasing wages under NREGA, the police can arrest me and impose > an anti-terror case against me under this act. Then I would be declared a > terrorist, when I was none. Is that acceptable? > > You may say, this is far-fetched. In the Hyderabad Mecca Masjid blasts > case, > the investigative agencies had argued for 124 (not sure about exact number, > but around 120 or so) people arrested to be convicted. Not a single one of > them faced conviction, as they faced some very absurd charges. Infact, I > read somewhere that the judge had commented that the police should first go > and learn how to investigate cases before actually taking up such cases. > What a shame!! In one of the PUCL meetings in Chennai here, which I > attended, one man related his own harrowing experience, where his fathers' > taxi was said to have hidden a bomb inside it, and policemen spread the > rumour to arrest his father, and then he was made to pay a bribe, in order > to secure the release of both his father and taxi, and the case closed > without any knowledge of the media. > > My point is that with today's police, it is very easy to frame cases > against > people. And when our police doesn't have the capability to solve murder > cases like 'Aarushi Murder case', how can I believe it has the capability > to > solve tough cases like those related to bomb blasts. Hence, Muslims can't > be > accused of having actually undertaken all these blasts (Ahmedabad, > Bangalore, Guwahati etc.) until proven guilty. Similar goes the case of > Sadhvi Pragya as far as Malegaon blasts is concerned. There can be no > double > standards on this. > > As far as Afzal Guru is concerned, on the basis of the police reports > against him, the Delhi High Court and even the SC had stated that Delhi > police have investigated the matter in a very shoddy way. Moreover, it > isn't > as if Afzal hasn't accepted that he hasn't done anything. However, the kind > of evidence on which he has been charged, is what the human right activists > have been against. Since, you would not believe me, I would like you to > read > the following link (by Arundhati Roy. Now for one moment, forget that you > don't like her as her ideology is very different from that of yours. Read > the content, and then tell me what your questions are. At least for once, > read that with an open mind as well): > > > http://www.outlookindia.com/full.asp?fodname=20061030&fname=Cover+Story+(F)&sid=1 > > I hope all read this link, and then decide for themselves whether he should > be hanged or not. For me, I believe that let us re-investigate the case > within 5 months, and if he is found to be guilty, hang him on 13th December > 2009. That would be the perfect day for him. > > 6) Any law, whether it should be introduced or not, should be determined by > all the constituents affected in the process. In the case of POTA, it > should > include experts of law, experts from police and law & order dept, those > from > the home ministry related to internal security, as well as human right > experts (because the act is said to infringe on human rights). They should > in totality decide whether the law is right or wrong. > > My issue with POTA is that firstly, it doesn't stop suicide bombers from > carrying out bombings. Secondly, the low conviction rate when it was > implemented, meant that mostly innocents were framed under POTA, and the > proper criminals were caught rarely. Thirdly, from the media reports, it > comes out that it was misused, mainly against Muslims. And the low > conviction rate only proves this. Inspite of this, if police officials > think > it stops terror acts, then they should provide ample proofs of the same. > And > I agree with you on this, that ultimately all these experts should combine > together to decide whether we require such a special law on terror or not. > > Anyways, most of the amendments introduced in POTA (or even its sections) > are already there in the IPC/CRPC. Then I don't understand what is the need > of a separate law. > > 7) Any root based development does not only mean sadak, bijli and > infrastructure. It means proper water supply, health and sanitation > facilities, proper education, and more importantly, the major issues of > 'roti, kapda and makaan'. When all these mails came in that Gujarat was > worse on some of the major social indicators of development (like female > literacy, health programmes for women and children etc.), so much so that > it > was being compared to poor nations of Africa, then how can we claim that > the > development, even if it has taken place, is just and equal? As I said, any > government must be judged on the basis of whether it has allowed efficiency > and equity in the growth of the people. > > Modi and the BJP govt. in Gujarat may have done very well when it comes to > efficiency, but in case of equity, they have failed to a certain extent. > And > as for power and sadak, my issue is that when people are below the poverty > line, neither would they be receiving any power nor would they use vehicles > for which sadak is important. > > Moreover, while some credit for efficiency can go to Modi and his govt, a > substantial portion of credit should go to Gujaratis as people for being > good entrepreuneurs. After all, if Modi is such a good CM, then let him go > and be the Bihar CM's post. That can tell us how good is he. To a certain > extent, your point also reflects this, when you say he speeded up > development. I appreciate that. > > 8) About the Narmada dam, the first problem I had with this issue is > regarding the rehabilitation of displaced people. Not for nothing does SC > periodically remind the MP govt of rehabilitating these people properly. > Not > for nothing do these people come to Bhopal regularly and sit on dharna for > proper rehabilitation. After all, it's their own homes which are dealt > with. > > > Sir, everybody has a name. And that name should be respected. How good > would > it be if you were to be referred to derogatorily by your caste/religion? A > name gives a respect, and one can certainly give it for a woman who is > elder > to us, even if in your view, she is doing a wrong thing. > > Secondly, while I can agree that I don't have 2009 data, since you are > chiding me for this, I would kindly request you to give me the 2009 data > (or > even 08) to prove me wrong. I would be very happy for this. After all, for > me the more important issue is whether this dam project is actually useful > for Gujarat or not. The observations made from 1993 to 2004 make you have > pity on me. Hence, I would like you to at least put the recent data to > prove > that I am incorrect. After all, even I can correct my stand on this issue > if > I were wrong. And I am willing to change my stand if found to be wrong. > > And anything foreign may not be bad. After all even the VHP receives a lot > of funding from American Hindu societies and businesses, which it then uses > to distort history and get arms for violence. And Medha Patkar has not > practiced any violence either in Gujarat or Madhya Pradesh to the best of > my > knowledge. As for the part that she has toyed with funds, that is something > which can be investigated, provided anyone launches a case against her on > that account. > > 9) Here again, I have been chided for producing data of older times (I > don't > know 4 years is past, but again past is quite relative). See sir, the data > is based on the 61st National Sample Survey Scheme, which was conducted in > 2004. My contention is that as of now, I didn't get any research based on > the sample surveys conducted after this. While I accept my fault that I am > using data based on 4 years ago, the fact is that you have not shown any > data of upto 2009 or 2008 to prove that I am wrong grossly. Since you > yourself say that things or policies of any govt, can start taking affect > only after 2.5/3 years, the UPA govt would have shown its effect only > after > 2007, and even then as the CAG report goes, the NREGA implementation is > only > about 14% or so. And even the World Bank had stated that about 80% of > Indian > people earn less than $2 per day (this $2 is not in American dollar terms, > but in PPP or purchasing power parity terms) as per 2006 data. > > My contention is that if you think I am wrong, I would like you to present > data from the recent years ahead of what I have presented, for those are > the > data sets available to me, from which I made the assessment. And if your > theory of leakages in public funds is right, there is hardly any incentive > for me to believe that things can be very much different from what they > were > 3-4 years ago. > > I have no regrets other than that. And even I would be glad if you could > put > up such data as required. > > 10) I have no way to say that the subsidy Tatas got is justified or not. > What I wished to say there was that when business houses get double or > triple the subsidy bill incurred on food and agriculture, they should not > be > cribbing about it. After all, the latter is a way of bringing about equity > in the system in a certain way (especially the populist schemes, if > properly > implemented, actually ensure equity), whereas can't even ensure winning of > elections, though on a long term could bring about development and > prosperity if properly channeled. > > 11) Nationalism and Patriotism are different for me in one sense: > patriotism > is love for the land because the land you love is the place related to your > culture, your way of life, your language, your religion, your values etc. > In > other words, you connect to yourself through the land. On the other hand, > nationalism is just love for your land (even if none of these are same), > just because somebody tells me that this belongs to my state. > > For example, a person living on the Tripura -Bangladesh border would be > much > closer culturally to Bangladesh rather than New Delhi or Maharashtra. Even > then, the Tripura person has to believe that India belongs to him (or even > Maharashtra land belongs to him) because he is an Indian, and Bangladesh is > foreign to him. This is a googly for me. After all, what is closer > culturally, you can have more affinity only with that. Not with something > with which you don't share anything. > > 12) I am not a Communist, and neither do I own or run the CPI or any other > communist party. Hence, please do not refer by statements like ' your > communists' or other phrases like this. > > 13) I would have agreed to your point that 60% voting is a referendum. > However, when I heard news items that candidates were paid by intelligence > agencies to contest elections and get their supporters to vote (with the > aim > of ensuring that the J & K elections could be termed successful), I was > stumped. And the biased way in which our army behaved during the Amarnath > protests (no killings by Army in Jammu but many killed in Kashmir) makes me > suspicious about the way they control these protests. (Thanks to Perveiz > Bukhari who is a member of this forum) > > Hence, I would like to have a referendum. From your statement, it seems we > are confident that Kashmiris want to stay back in India. A referendum would > be an excellent way to confirm that. After all, if they do want to stay > back, I would be happy as it is a shot in the arm for our Indian democracy. > Why are we so afraid of it. It won't require much expense to have a > referendum, when compared to costs incurred for national elections. > > 14) You hit the nail on the head as far as the efficiency part is > concerned. > Since private companies are very efficient in creating capital, let them do > so and hand over a part of their revenue as taxes to the government. Let > the > government use these revenues in order to ensure that through schemes like > NREGA and other employment generation schemes in the urban sector, not only > the necessary infrastructure is created, but moreover, poor can also earn > in > their villages, don't have to migrate to urban areas in search of > employment, and their livelihood improves. And certainly, here is where we > have to plug leakages. > > The government would have to take over the role of ensuring equity in > development and growth, because the private model of development feeds on > efficiency only and hence they won't bother about equity or employment of > poor people. And populist schemes can be undertaken to help the poor > people, > but ultimately the idea should to be to combine the two and ensure that > people earn well and pay for their buying so that ultimately they can live > with pride instead of just being dependent on the govt totally for food. > > And dekhiye jee, what I said in the previous mail is that we need to look > at > issues from micro based. That's something I like in Dreze. Here too, in our > mails, both of us have looked at issues only from macro angle. But that > can't help the situation. > > I never meant to demean you or your view. But I thought we need to shift > from discussions on macro based figures to micro based realities of India, > for that can signal a different kind of situation in our country. > > Thanks to Aashish for the last point which I have put up here. Aashish is > someone who is a member of this list, and a great person to discuss issues > with. Sometimes I wonder how skewed my outlook would have been if I hadn't > met him and discussed these issues with him. > My only issue with this is that I would like to experiment at sectors where > the govt can intervene. That would be interesting to see as well. > > And for Pawan jee, you have not mentioned anywhere about Mallika jee. My > thoughts on that account were with respect to Bipin jee's mail, so please > don't get angry. > > Bipin jee, you have your views with respect to Mallika jee, but I would say > that let us first look with open mind at the kind of prospects she brings > to > her constituency, and then decide whether she is fine or not. That is how > reason demands of us. Just deriding someone for being secular, is wrong. > Secularism is a right virtue, provided it is properly practised. > > Regards > > Rakesh > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > subscribe in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> From rakesh.rnbdj at gmail.com Sat Apr 4 00:46:08 2009 From: rakesh.rnbdj at gmail.com (Rakesh Iyer) Date: Sat, 4 Apr 2009 00:46:08 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Mallika Sarabhai's Public Meeting in JNU on 31stMarch In-Reply-To: <6b79f1a70904031112o3c30c0bdle1e45c86e6bdf967@mail.gmail.com> References: <000901c9b121$26989220$0201a8c0@limo> <003901c9b201$d086b3d0$0201a8c0@limo> <004501c9b45e$0b5c1780$0201a8c0@limo> <6b79f1a70904031112o3c30c0bdle1e45c86e6bdf967@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: Dear Mr. Durani Since you pointed out, I have cross-checked my information, which as you pointed out correctly, was wrong. One person was killed, and one injured in an army firing on August 6,2008 during the agitation. From the information I got on some other sites through searching, the others seem to be dead in police firing. Altogether 12 people died during this agitation. I am sorry for putting wrong information, but I didn't intend to do it. However, is it not true that the Army firings resulted in death of more number of people in the Valley rather than in Jammu? And while the Army used more caution in dealing with incidents in Jammu, it didn't exercise the same caution in the Valley? My issue is simply this. Stone-pelting can be addressed through various ways. Announcements of curfew, firing in air and if possible, use of rubber bullets (or even use of tear gas) must be tried before resorting to firing at mobs. In how many cases has this been done, would be an interesting query, whether it be Kashmir valley or be it Jammu. Regards Rakesh From 2tahamehmood at googlemail.com Sat Apr 4 08:01:38 2009 From: 2tahamehmood at googlemail.com (Taha Mehmood) Date: Sat, 04 Apr 2009 03:31:38 +0100 Subject: [Reader-list] National Identity Cards for All (BJP Manifesto) Message-ID: <49D6C68A.1080404@gmail.com> Dear All, It was quite surprising to see BJP bringing out its election manifesto after 11 long years and not so surprising perhaps to find National Identity Cards figure prominently in this party document.The BJP is forwarding a welfarist argument while articulating about a unified national identity card. We must remember that political parties in India do not usually fulfill all their poll promises but it would certainly be interesting to see which way the debate will turn in so far as the national identity card is concerned. I have pasted a chunk from the manifesto which refer to NID. Regards Taha http://ibnlive.in.com/news/full-text-bjp-manifesto-for-general-elections-2009/89404-37-single.html //*National Identity Cards for All*// //The BJP will launch an innovative programme to establish a countrywide system of multi-purpose national identity cards so as to ensure national security, correct welfare delivery, accurate tax collection, financial inclusion and voter registration. Voter identity cards, PAN cards, passports, ration cards and BPL cards are already in use though not all with photo identity. The NDA proposes to make it incumbent for every Indian to have a National Identity Card. The programme will be completed in three years. The National Identity Card will contain enough memory and processing capabilities to run multiple applications. Through it the NDA will ensure efficient welfare delivery and tax collection. The card will also be linked to a bank account. All welfare payments, including widow and old age pensions, through the wide range of schemes such as Mother and Child support/ Kisan Credit, Students Assistance and Micro-Credit will be channelised through the National Identity Card. The card will make it possible for individuals to save and borrow money; for farmers to get bank credit, also establish accurate land titles data. The National Identity Card will also strengthen national security by ensuring accurate citizen identity, thus tracking illegal immigration. All financial transactions, purchase of property and access to public services will be possible only on the basis of the National Identity Card which will be made forgery and hacking resistant.// From 2tahamehmood at googlemail.com Sat Apr 4 08:26:56 2009 From: 2tahamehmood at googlemail.com (Taha Mehmood) Date: Sat, 04 Apr 2009 03:56:56 +0100 Subject: [Reader-list] Work Programme 2009-14 (Congress Manifesto) Message-ID: <49D6CC78.4020408@gmail.com> Dear All These bits below are from the manifestos of the Indian National Congress and the Communist Party of India (Marxist) respectively, vis-a-vis their position on the National Identity Card. As we can make out both these parties seem very toned down in its rhetoric on the national identity card. While Congress seems to take the argument of 'right' and 'pride', for CPIM the argument for the card is made through social security. Regards Taha http://www.congress.org.in/home-layout-manifesto.php Citizenship is a right and a matter of pride. With the huge IT expertise available in our country, it is possible to provide every Indian with a unique identity card after the publication of the national population register in the year 2011. http://www.indian-elections.com/partymanifestoes/cpim.html Setting up special welfare board for fish workers and providing them identity cards and social security schemes; From patrice at xs4all.nl Sat Apr 4 09:45:20 2009 From: patrice at xs4all.nl (Patrice Riemens) Date: Sat, 4 Apr 2009 06:15:20 +0200 (CEST) Subject: [Reader-list] Yann Moulier Boutang on Horatio Potel/ Derrida/ Minuit Publishers Message-ID: <4732.61.17.200.36.1238818520.squirrel@webmail.xs4all.nl> After I reposted the nettime (and Sarai Reader List) message to the Multitudes-Infos list, Yann Moulier Boutang had the following to say. (translated with permission) Dear Patrice, Minuit Pulishing House (and more particularly in this case the widow of Jerome Lindon, who's being advised by particularly prejudiced lawyers in matters of intellectual property) is very principled when it comes to putting online downloadable copyrighted material. They do not recognise the right to private digital copy, and it's totally useless to try to explain them that on this (Potel's -PR) site, for instance, material would be put under Creative Commons License 2.0 (attribution, share alike, non-commercial) Certain publishing houses and some copyright holders (authors or their heirs or their representatives, i.e. publishers) are sometimes willing, when asked beforehand, to reach an agreement for putting material online under Creative Commons License 2.0., but as far as Minuit is concerned, and to my regret, most other French publishers apart from Les Editions de l'Eclat - well, just forget it. It's stupid, mad, reactionary, counter-productive both for the sake of the dissemination of the authors writings, and for the fact that the meagre direct incomes lost that way are usually compensated by the PR such sites generate for the paper copies, but it's like that. But then what can you expect from a country that has just voted this horrendous piece of legislation called HADOPI! (High Authority for the Diffusion of works and Protection of rights on the Internet, aka 'Internet and Creation' -PR) Cheers, Yann Jean Noel Montagne writes also that the site is still reachable on archive.org http://tinyurl.com/dk2c3v Someone mirrors this? From sen.gargi at gmail.com Sat Apr 4 11:56:48 2009 From: sen.gargi at gmail.com (Gargi Sen) Date: Sat, 04 Apr 2009 11:56:48 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Persistence Resistance 09 Message-ID: Dear All, I am happy to invite you for the second edition of the film festival Persistence Resistance: a festival of contemporary political films The festival schedule is available at: http://www.magiclanternfoundation.org/Events/Persistence%202009/pr09home.htm l Dates: April 17-19 Venue: India International Centre, 40 Max Mueller Marg, Lodhi Estate, New Delhi 110003 All welcome. Entry Free If you are in Delhi between 17-19 April 2009, do please visit and attend the festival. Please also circulate the invite to your friends and networks in Delhi who might wish to attend or write about the festival. Gargi Sen From rana at ranadasgupta.com Sat Apr 4 22:03:45 2009 From: rana at ranadasgupta.com (Rana Dasgupta) Date: Sat, 04 Apr 2009 22:03:45 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] =?windows-1252?q?Why_freedom_of_speech_must_include?= =?windows-1252?q?_the_right_to_=93defame=94_religions?= Message-ID: <49D78BE9.3090403@ranadasgupta.com> Religion and human rights The meaning of freedom Apr 2nd 2009 Why freedom of speech must include the right to “defame” religions From The Economist print edition AT FIRST glance, the resolution on “religious defamation” adopted by the UN’s Human Rights Council on March 26th, mainly at the behest of Islamic countries, reads like another piece of harmless verbiage churned out by a toothless international bureaucracy. What is wrong with saying, as the resolution does, that some Muslims faced prejudice in the aftermath of September 2001? But a closer look at the resolution’s language, and the context in which it was adopted (with an unholy trio of Pakistan, Belarus and Venezuela acting as sponsors), makes clear that bigger issues are at stake. The resolution says “defamation of religions” is a “serious affront to human dignity” which can “restrict the freedom” of those who are defamed, and may also lead to the incitement of violence. But there is an insidious blurring of categories here, which becomes plain when you compare this resolution with the more rigorous language of the Universal Declaration of Human Rights, adopted in 1948 in a spirit of revulsion over the evils of fascism. This asserts the right of human beings in ways that are now entrenched in the theory and (most of the time) the practice of liberal democracy. It upholds the right of people to live in freedom from persecution and arbitrary arrest; to hold any faith or none; to change religion; and to enjoy freedom of expression, which by any fair definition includes freedom to agree or disagree with the tenets of any religion. In other words, it protects individuals—not religions, or any other set of beliefs. And this is a vital distinction. For it is not possible systematically to protect religions or their followers from offence without infringing the right of individuals. What exactly is it the drafters of the council resolution are trying to outlaw? To judge from what happens in the countries that lobbied for the vote—like Saudi Arabia, Egypt and Pakistan—they use the word “defamation” to mean something close to the crime of blasphemy, which is in turn defined as voicing dissent from the official reading of Islam. In many of the 56 member states of the Organisation of the Islamic Conference, which has led the drive to outlaw “defamation”, both non-Muslims and Muslims who voice dissent (even in technical matters of Koranic interpretation) are often victims of just the sort of persecution the 1948 declaration sought to outlaw. That is a real human-rights problem. And in the spirit of fairness, laws against blasphemy that remain on the statute books of some Western countries should also be struck off; only real, not imaginary, incitement of violence should be outlawed. Good manners, please; not censorship In much of the Muslim world, the West’s reaction to the attacks of September 2001, including the invasions of Afghanistan and Iraq, has been misread as an attack on Islam itself. This is more than regrettable; it is dangerous. Western governments, and decent people everywhere, should try to ensure that the things they say do not entrench religious prejudice or incite acts of violence; being free to give offence does not mean you are wise to give offence. But no state, and certainly no body that calls itself a Human Rights Council, should trample on the right to free speech enshrined in the Universal Declaration. And in the end, given that all faiths have undergone persecution at some time, few people have more to gain from the protection of free speech than sincere religious believers. The United States, with its tradition of combining strong religious beliefs and religious freedom, is well placed to make that case. Having taken a politically risky decision (see article) to re-engage with the Human Rights Council and seek election as one of its 47 members, America should now make the defence of real religious liberty one of its highest priorities. From asad_abbasi at hotmail.com Sun Apr 5 05:55:42 2009 From: asad_abbasi at hotmail.com (asad abbasi) Date: Sun, 5 Apr 2009 00:25:42 +0000 Subject: [Reader-list] secularism In-Reply-To: <004301c9b358$fc0ca1b0$0201a8c0@limo> References: <004301c9b358$fc0ca1b0$0201a8c0@limo> Message-ID: Dear Bipin (and all) I think your provocation to define secularism is quite interesting. I wonder why is it that you want to cling to this word? I can understand the importance is word has in the Indian context but don't you think that there cannot be a single definition of this word or any word ever which is universally binding. You see for so long as we as human beings can see, hear, think, feel, perceive, comprehend and articulate, we will continue to keep up making words, naming things and defining them. You suggest secularism. I think this is a remarkable word. But before I put forth what I am able to conjecture from this word please allow me to suggest that we take into our consideration what people who came before us thought about this word. It's like Goethe, writing, if you do not know much about five thousand years of human existence, you are practically living from hand to mouth. Now I am not an expert on Goethe, I just read this quote on the beginning, rather on the first page of Jostein Gaarder's beautiful work Sophie's world and it sort of stayed with me. Coming back to secular. What are we talking about here, is it some sort of a constitutional definition, etymological definition, literary definition, cultural definition, philosophical definition, political definition, social definition or a definition as it has been given to us by the history of sedimentation of human utterances. Take your pick? More than that any such singular defintion or its combination will be faced with predicaments. Why? Because they will be at best some sort of, social construsts liable to meaning making and intrepretations. But since I have promised in the beginning of this post to provide you with a definiton, then, I think, I should. So here goes, for me secular is that which has helped the Indian National Congress help win votes all these years, and pseudo-secular is that which has BJP helped win votes. The brutal irony of it all is that this beautiful, poetic word secular means the same thing, when tranlated onto ground meaning-riots, murders, butcherings, arson, rapes and what not. Secular and its anti-thesis mean the same thing. But we are merely talking here aren't we? Wating for your reply Warm regards Asad _________________________________________________________________ View your Twitter and Flickr updates from one place – Learn more! http://clk.atdmt.com/UKM/go/137984870/direct/01/ From comradesaad at gmail.com Thu Apr 2 12:53:29 2009 From: comradesaad at gmail.com (S J) Date: Thu, 2 Apr 2009 12:23:29 +0500 Subject: [Reader-list] reader-list Digest, Vol 69, Issue 3 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <2ce11dd30904020023r7b7cac08t4a1e5f3d757833a7@mail.gmail.com> Re: Secularism (Saad) secularism is a anti-*religious-extremism.* it a tolerance and liberty.......... On 4/2/09, reader-list-request at sarai.net wrote: > > Send reader-list mailing list submissions to > reader-list at sarai.net > > To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit > https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to > reader-list-request at sarai.net > > You can reach the person managing the list at > reader-list-owner at sarai.net > > When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific > than "Re: Contents of reader-list digest..." > > > Today's Topics: > > 1. secularism (bipin) > 2. Re: secularism (Yousuf) > 3. A second tulip mania (Taha Mehmood) > 4. Re: reader-list Digest, Vol 68, Issue 76 (rajenradhika at vsnl.net) > > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > > Message: 1 > Date: Thu, 02 Apr 2009 11:35:11 +0530 > From: bipin > Subject: [Reader-list] secularism > To: sarai-list > Message-ID: <004301c9b358$fc0ca1b0$0201a8c0 at limo> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 > > Dear All, > > before further discussions/reply I invite everyone to give definition of > SECULARISM in your point of view. > > thanks > BIPIN > > > ------------------------------ > > Message: 2 > Date: Wed, 1 Apr 2009 23:50:19 -0700 (PDT) > From: Yousuf > Subject: Re: [Reader-list] secularism > To: sarai-list , bipin > Message-ID: <879691.2052.qm at web51409.mail.re2.yahoo.com> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii > > > Dear Bipin > To me personally, Secularism is not a denial or absence of religious faith. > Its more like tolerance and respect of many points of views. > > Its certainly not a sickness. > > Yousuf > > > --- On Thu, 4/2/09, bipin wrote: > > > From: bipin > > Subject: [Reader-list] secularism > > To: "sarai-list" > > Date: Thursday, April 2, 2009, 11:35 AM > > Dear All, > > > > before further discussions/reply I invite everyone to give > > definition of SECULARISM in your point of view. > > > > thanks > > BIPIN > > _________________________________________ > > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > > Critiques & Collaborations > > To subscribe: send an email to > > reader-list-request at sarai.net with subscribe in the subject > > header. > > To unsubscribe: > > https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > > List archive: > > <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> > > > > > > ------------------------------ > > Message: 3 > Date: Thu, 2 Apr 2009 08:12:45 +0100 > From: Taha Mehmood <2tahamehmood at googlemail.com> > Subject: [Reader-list] A second tulip mania > To: Sarai Reader-list > Message-ID: > <65be9bf40904020012i4ef65f19gc1fc987dbc7dbb63 at mail.gmail.com> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252 > > Dear All > > Seems like the recession is going to have an adverse effect on art > market too. The writer of the article below makes an argument by > comparing the rise of 'contemporary art' in recent years to mania > which surrounded the sale of tupil bulbs in 17 century. So, after the > futures and derivative bubble, the housing sub-prime bubble, it > appears that the time has come now for the contemporary art bubble to > burst. > > Regards > > Taha > > http://www.prospect-magazine.co.uk/article_details.php?id=10474 > > The prices of contemporary art works have risen to astonishing levels > in recent years. Insiders say it’s because we have been living through > a golden age of art. Nonsense, argue Ben Lewis and Jonathan Ford, it > is a classic investment bubble > Ben Lewis > Jonathan Ford > > The bubble in contemporary art is about to pop. It has exhibited all > the classic features of the South Sea bubble of 1720 or the tulip > madness of the 1630s. It has been the bubble of bubbles—balancing > precariously on top of other now-burst bubbles in credit, housing and > commodities—and inflating more dramatically than all of them. While > British house prices took six years to double at the start of this > century, contemporary art managed it in just one, 2006-07. (Over the > same period, old masters went up by just 7.6 per cent and British 17th > to 19th century watercolours actually lost value.) Contemporary art in > the emerging economies did even better. The value of its sales in > China increased by 983 per cent in one year (2005-06). In Russia they > rose 2,365 per cent in five years (2000-05), while its stock market > increased by "only" about 300 per cent. > > Even these numbers understate the incredible tulip-like increases in > the value of the hottest artists. The Chinese painter Zhang Xiaogang > saw his work appreciate 6,000 times, from $1,000 to $6m (1999-2008); > work by the American artist Richard Prince went up 60 to 80 times > (2003-2008). The German painter Anselm Reyle was unknown in 2003; you > could have picked up one of his stripe paintings for €14,000. Now he > has a studio with 60 assistants turning them out for about €200,000 > each. Any figures for the whole contemporary art market are guesswork, > though Christie's chief executive, Ed Dolman, recently estimated that > it had grown in value from $4bn a year to somewhere between $20-30bn > in the past eight years. > > But this bubble is now deflating. Sotheby's share price has lost three > quarters of its value over the past year, sinking from its peak of $57 > in October 2007 to $9 in early November—close to its 1980s low of $8. > The latest round of contemporary art auctions in London has gone > badly. In October, the Phillips de Pury sale made only £5m—a quarter > of the minimum estimate; at Christie's almost half the lots didn't > sell; and an air of denial hung over the Frieze art fair like a fog. > Upmarket dealers Matthew Marks and Iwan Wirth claimed to have clinched > many big deals, but the reality was surely different. A leading New > York gallerist was said to have sold very little and a well-known > German dealer not a single work. > > Some dealers have blamed the poor quality of the works in the London > sales. "Just wait for New York in mid-November," one said, "and you'll > see the art market is still doing well." But New York has been no > better. This should have come as no real surprise. If you consider the > market as a purely financial enterprise, rather than one in which > aesthetic quality has any bearing, then the boom in contemporary art > has the hallmarks of a classic investment bubble. > > *** > > In his book, Manias, Panics, and Crashes, Charles Kindleberger > observed that manias typically start with a "displacement" that > excites speculative interest. It may come from a new object of > investment or from the increased profitability of existing > investments. It is followed by positive feedback as rising prices > encourage less experienced investors to enter the market. Then, as the > mania gets a grip, speculation becomes more diffuse and spreads to > other types of asset. Fresh assets are created at an ever faster rate > to take advantage of the euphoria and investors try to increase their > gains by borrowing to buy assets or using derivatives. Credit > ultimately becomes overextended, swindling and fraud proliferate, and > the mania ends in panic as investors seek to liquidate their > positions. > > The art market has adhered spookily to Kindleberger's model. By 2004 > it was clear that a boom in contemporary art was well underway ("The > price of art," Ben Lewis, Prospect, October 2004.) At the Armory show, > New York's trendsetting contemporary art fair, dealers sold $43m worth > of art in four days, nearly twice as much as the previous year. There > were huge price rises at auction, too. A 1996 sculpture of a stuffed > horse hanging from a ceiling, Ballad of Trotsky, by the fashionable > and witty Italian artist Maurizio Cattelan, sold for $2m at auction in > May 2002. It had increased in value tenfold in two years. Gerhard > Richter's paintings quadrupled in value between 2000 and 2004. Even > then, buyers were paying $1m to $3m for a work by Hirst, Warhol, > Basquiat or Koons. Those sums now seem quaint—last year a Koons went > for $23m, a Hirst for $20m and a Basquiat for $15m. > > The moment of "displacement" was driven by the emergence of a global > class of the new rich. These billionaires, who had probably never > drawn more than stick figures with a biro, were drawn to artistic > creation. They wanted to collect contemporary art, partly because they > liked it, partly because it was a status symbol, partly because most > of the good old master works were in museums, and partly because it > seemed to be a solid investment. > > The way was led by people like Charles Saatchi and the Miami property > magnates, the Rubells. Saatchi laid down a blueprint in the late 1990s > that others have tried to copy—he bought the work of young artists, > established a museum in which to display it or lent it to public > museums, and used the media interest that such shows attracted (by > virtue of the outlandish works involved and the association of > celebrities) to sell on part of the collection at auction at greatly > inflated prices. Some of the proceeds would then be reinvested in the > work of other new discoveries. Saatchi's famous 1997 show, > "Sensation," demonstrated that this "specullecting" was a great way to > make a splash as an arbiter of taste. Others took an earthier view of > the collectors' instinct. Amy Capellazzo, the co-head of Christie's > contemporary art department, observed in 2007: "After you have a > fourth home and a G5 jet, what else is there?" > > According to Forbes, the number of billionaires in the world has been > growing by 20 per cent a year since 2000. There were 476 in 2003, now > there are 1,125. As they began to collect contemporary art, prices > started to rise. New fairs, such as Art Basel Miami Beach and Frieze > in London, were a success. Newspapers ran stories that promoted the > boom. Advertising from rich galleries and art businesses and the > untouchable sanctity of "art" deterred criticism. The public flocked > to art galleries. The Tate Modern had 5.2m visitors in 2007, making it > the most popular museum of modern art in the world. > > This boom was different from the one in the 1980s. Then, it had > depended on Japanese property speculators buying with credit secured > against inflated real estate values. This time the buyers were more > widely spread and paid with cash, not promissory notes. Art had become > a new asset class—akin to shares or oil. In 2007, Tobias Meyer, > Sotheby's head of contemporary art, effused: "The best art is the most > expensive because the market is so smart." > > *** > > Contemporary art turned out to be an ideal vehicle for speculative > euphoria. The market is almost entirely free from state interference. > Governments have had little interest in regulating the trinkets and > playthings of the super-rich. Art works are a uniquely portable and > confidential form of wealth. Whereas all property purchases have to be > publicly registered, buying art is a private activity. And unlike old > masters, which are often linked by history to specific places, > contemporary art knows no frontiers. > > By 2006, the bubble was well into Kindleberger's second phase: > diffusion. Rising prices were sucking in new investors. In the first > half of 2006, 454 works exceeded $1m at auction, up from 130 in the > same period of 2003 as Asian billionaires joined European buyers. In > Britain, there was the Banksy market, a kind of contemporary art lite, > for people with thousands rather than millions to spend. Images that > would once have never made it past a T-shirt, mug or wall, were now > bought and sold as limited edition prints and stencils on canvas. In > 2003, one of the 50 spoofy Kate Moss prints by Banksy in the style of > Warhol's Marilyn could have been yours for £1,500. In February this > year one sold for £96,000 at Bonhams. (Now the price is half that.) > > Established collectors dropped out or were nudged sideways towards > lesser known artists by the activities of the new rich. The titans of > the showrooms included hedge fund bosses such as Steve Cohen, whose > SAC fund was responsible for about 3 per cent of daily trading on the > New York stock exchange. Other big buyers were Asian billionaires, > like Joseph Lau from Hong Kong, oil tycoons and the oligarchs with > their huge stakes in metal extraction and banks. The Georgian Boris > Ivanishvili spent $95m on Picasso's Dora Maar au Chat—a work of art > that he still hasn't unpacked. When it was flown back to Tbilisi, the > airport was closed down and the army turned out to ensure the work's > transfer to a secure warehouse. These financial investors didn't > simply shove their wealth into contemporary art, they imported the > strategies of financial investment into art collecting. Alien phrases, > such as "price discovery," were heard in galleries and auction houses. > > Investors became beady-eyed about tracking which artists leading > museums considered important and followed the prices of their works on > Artnet's database like stock market indices. > > Indeed, the new art market bore about as much resemblance to > traditional collecting as the modern financial system of credit > default swaps and mortgage-backed securities did to traditional > banking. The correlation between value and rarity in art went out of > the window. Paintings by old masters such as Vermeer and Rembrandt > hold their value because there are a finite number in the world. This > is both a guarantor of value and limits the extent of any speculative > activity. But, as Kindleberger has shown, it is a condition of a > speculative mania that new "assets" be manufactured to meet raging > demand—so the recent bubble has focused on the works of living artists > such as Hirst, Koons, Prince and Murakami. They, and other stars, have > produced scores of very similar works in series, like the slashed > canvases of the Italian conceptual artist Lucio Fontana, Warhol's > screenprints or Hirst's spins and spots. > > More and more of such work has been churned out by cookie-cutter > artists without regard to originality or aesthetic merit. Economist > and historian of financial crashes, Edward Chancellor, observed > recently: "Most contemporary art is inherently worthless. It is not > like Titian and other old masters of which there are few and whose > value will not fall away. It's like subprime CDOs." > > At the peak of the South Sea bubble in 1720, a series of stock > promoters emerged touting the shares of "bubble companies" that aimed > to take advantage of high share prices. We laugh now at the > prospectuses of these tawdry ventures—not least the one proposing to > carry out "an undertaking of great advantage, but nobody to know what > it is." As the art bubble has neared its peak, the great > art-entrepreneurs such as Hirst, Banksy, Prince or the Chinese > artists, Xiaogang and Yue Minjun, seem increasingly like these > 18th-century promoters. Not only have they pumped out identical works, > but they have also sought to capture more of the value for themselves, > bypassing the gallerists with whom they are obliged to share 50 per > cent of sales and selling direct out of the studio or placing new > works straight into auction. Five years ago it was unknown for a work > of art that was only one or two years old to be sold at auction. Now > this is common—the best example being the Hirst sale of over 200 new > works at Sotheby's in September. > > *** > > The final phase of any bubble is characterised by overextended credit > as investors use leverage to magnify their gains. It is also the peak > of what JK Galbraith referred to as "the bezzle"—the amount of money > siphoned from the system through outright corruption and fraud. The > opacity of the art market makes it hard to know how exposed it is to > the credit crunch. But the auction houses are weighed down by debt > from guarantees—the prices that they have guaranteed to pay the > sellers of works of art in their auctions (which they extend to > persuade sellers to sell works through them). Auction house Phillips > de Pury was rescued by a takeover by the Russian luxury goods company > Mercury. In November, Sotheby's announced it had around $250m of debt > in the form of guarantees to the end of the year. It had already lost > $47m on work that hadn't sold and has since stopped giving further > guarantees. Sotheby's has borrowed $250m to "ensure additional > liquidity." Christie's has also taken out a loan and in October > suspended offering any further credit terms to its customers, > according to an auction house executive. > > The mania for collecting contemporary art has become ever more intense > in the past 12 months—in the first half of this year, new auction > records were set for almost 1,000 artists. But the suspicion is that > dealers and collectors with interests in particular artists may have > been "bidding up" prices at auction and acquiring works. If so, they > may be holding large inventories of overvalued work, financed by > increasingly expensive debt. At the Damien Hirst auction at Sotheby's, > his London dealer, Jay Jopling, bid on an astonishing 44 per cent of > the lots in the evening sale, and both he and Hirst's US dealer, Larry > Gagosian, bid on two lots after long pauses in the bidding. One cannot > know if Jopling was maintaining Hirst's prices at his own expense or > bidding for clients. > > The lack of transparency often makes it hard to know who is doing what > to whom. On 30th August last year, Hirst's business manager Frank > Dunphy and Jopling declared publicly that they had sold his > diamond-encrusted skull For the Love of God for "the full asking price > of £50m"—the highest price ever paid for a work by a living artist. > But just over a year later, Dunphy told Time magazine that he, Jopling > and Hirst owned "a controlling stake" in the skull. A controlling > stake is one that exceeds 50 per cent (and could be anything up to 100 > per cent). In the stock market, a transaction of this kind would > require disclosure to avoid the creation of a "false market." But as > we have seen the art market is unregulated. > > As the credit crunch struck, it became evident that American and > Europeans would be buying less art. But that, we were told, did not > matter because a wave of new buyers from Russia and the middle east > would take their place, their wealth buoyed by high commodity prices. > Sotheby's press releases said that every year 20 per cent of their > clients were new and, for the Hirst auction, 22 per cent of the buyers > were new clients. New records were set by these art virgins—Roman > Abramovich paid $86m for a Francis Bacon in July 2008 and the Qatari > royal family, previously known for collecting Islamic art, bought the > Rockefeller Rothko for $73m. > > The propaganda of the art entrepreneurs has also reached a final level > of absurdity. We were told that the decline of paper assets would lead > to "a flight of capital into art." The art market, Tobias Meyer of > Sotheby's said in June, is a one-way street: "For the first time since > 1914 we are in a non-cyclical market." > > Over the winter of 1636, the tulip mania reached its peak. One kind of > bulb sold for 900 guilders (three times the price of a small town > house), up from 95 a year before. The peak prices of Dutch tulips were > achieved when the bulbs were snug in the ground, and were based on > futures contracts—a form of leverage that allowed investors to place > an enormous price on a bulb without actually laying down the cash. On > 3rd February 1637, the tulip market crashed. There was no particular > reason for the panic—except that spring was nearing and, on its > arrival, the bulbs would be dug up, cash settlement sought for futures > and the game would be up. > > We have surely reached the same point in the world of contemporary > art. One of the emotions that has driven its boom is the narcissistic > belief of the rich in the greatness of the age in which they are > living. They thought they were buying masterpieces. But like the Dutch > merchants and their tulips, the obsession of the new rich with > contemporary art is likely to be remembered as the epitome of the > vanity and folly of the age. The bulbs are still in the ground but the > spades are poised. > > > ------------------------------ > > Message: 4 > Date: Thu, 02 Apr 2009 12:10:30 +0500 > From: rajenradhika at vsnl.net > Subject: Re: [Reader-list] reader-list Digest, Vol 68, Issue 76 > To: reader-list at sarai.net > Message-ID: > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252 > > > Dear All, > it is really amusing to me when I raise the topic on reality check of > indian democracy, the so called intelligentia of the sari readers list is > deadly silence and not even one response to the thoughts put in the post. ! > > If I were to post some thoughts about how the communism and its leaders are > parasytes on labour class, living their life on the subscriptions paid by > the poor working class, there would be enough responses justifying the > leaders actions, if I were to talk about the rape of a young girl in Singur > by goon cadres, murders and grievious hurt inflicted on poor citizens to > deprive them of their right to property some more responses from "secular" > intellect. > > But if I were to talk of rule of laws that is being subverted in democratic > governance of the nation, the blame game starts of blaming the major > community and the politics of vote banks of hindus, very amusing indeed. If > lakhs of followers of one faith form a jammaath it is not communal, if lakhs > of a caste say, yadavs form a party and then its leader loots the fodder > funds, he is very secular, if he stops the peaceful Rath yathra, thus > causing riots, it is the responsibilty of the leader Advani.? > If I talk of judges who fudge their date of births and loot 600 crores > in official residence thru their sons on non-existing assets, if the judges > gulp down crores of PF money for their comforts, judiciary is still clean > and honest.? If the Law minister clandestinely operates to send the court > official to London to defreeze the account, we have a chief justice who has > no powers to take suo moto note of this dirty operation of kickbacks being > reverted to uncle Q.? The same law minister warns a convict and a friend of > terrorist to contest from his party or otherwise... the highest court > applies its mind.? > > A simple land dispute about a dilapidated structure on land belonging to > maharaja awauts judgement of judiciary for decades, if the structire not > even used for prayer becomes a masjid to evoke emotional respones, what sort > of calibre is these judges have who can not dispose off the cases and > adjudicate them at the earliest, so that the political parties do not use it > as vote gathering tool in democratic elections.? > > The chief justice finds technical loop holes to save the officer of the > election commission even when he loots crores of rupess in his wifes NGO, > and becomes a mole for the political party, and the contribution of > judiciary is immense in this type of actions where they do not seem to have > guts to talk of corruption in Election commission. EPIC or voters id cards > issue is biggest corruption scandal with use of IT and tendering process and > the EC has not even covered 50 percent of voters in nation. Shame on such > "autonomous" bodies who play games with common man to appease the political > parties.This can be verified easily by the serpentine ques for epic cards > even now, with tout charging 100 bucks for facilitation of epic cards in > metro cities. Bogus cards are another menace. > > Regards, > > Rajendra Uppinangadi, > rajen882uppinangadi at gmail.com > > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: reader-list-request at sarai.net > Date: Monday, March 30, 2009 11:35 am > Subject: reader-list Digest, Vol 68, Issue 76 > To: reader-list at sarai.net > > > Send reader-list mailing list submissions to > > reader-list at sarai.net > > > > To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit > > https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > > or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to > > reader-list-request at sarai.net > > > > You can reach the person managing the list at > > reader-list-owner at sarai.net > > > > When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific > > than "Re: Contents of reader-list digest..." > > > > > > Today's Topics: > > > > 1. Re: reader-list Digest, Vol 68, Issue 62Freedom and right to > > express at what cost to society.? (rajenradhika at vsnl.net) > > 2. Are News Channels emerging as arbitrators of the I-card > > discourse? (Taha Mehmood) > > 3. "Free, Free Binayak Sen!" -- Report on U.S. Actions in > > Solidarity with the Raipur Satyagraha (Anivar Aravind) > > 4. Re: The decline of the 'encounter death' (bipin) > > > > > > -------------------------------------------------------------------- > > -- > > > > Message: 1 > > Date: Sun, 29 Mar 2009 12:16:30 +0500 > > From: rajenradhika at vsnl.net > > Subject: Re: [Reader-list] reader-list Digest, Vol 68, Issue 62Freedom > > and right to express at what cost to society.? > > To: Rakesh Iyer > > Cc: sarai-list > > Message-ID: > > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii > > > > > > We the citizens of India gave ourselves the constitution of India > > which gave us rights to property, rights to life, rights to > > express individually and we live in the nation state as a social > > group of citizens and the state when it declared itself as a > > secular, it means in letter and spirit that the state does not > > uphold any faith, faith is strictly in the individuals prerogative > > to live life as per his personal belief, practice the faith he > > believes in, but th conflict comes in to play when the individual > > wants to impose his faith in his right to express on the the other > > individuals in the society. > > > > Right to property is upheld by the constitution in its articles but > > the governance by leaders elected by us, the citizens have > > systematically denied this right to property, right from > > Keshavanand Bharathi vs. Union of India case law judgement by > > amending the constitution and inserting such laws into schedules in > > the constitution which are beyond the perview of judicial system. > > > > Right to have faith as strictly personal domain is again violated > > by the Shah bano case law judgement by amending the laws to suit > > vote banks, faith is used as a tool to gather votes. > > We see today and in the last sixty two years of governance all > > the political parties either for a faith or against a faith, either > > for a community or against a community, either for few business > > houses or against a few more business houses. Is this the true > > facet of democratic governance.? > > > > True democratic rule in letter and spirit is when the elected > > who take oaths of office to govern, without fear or favour in just > > governance to all the citizens. But our leaders violate the oath > > taken the very day by imposing their whims and fancies on selective > > governance to citizens. Irrespective of the political parties the > > issues of good governance alays take the last priority, the > > community which voted them to power gains its pound of flesh and > > discrimination in governance starts immediately. > > > > As to the four pillars of democratic governance, let us examine > > the role of each of these in good governance or lack of it. > > Political leadership or legislative pillar as explained above is > > partisan and never does it rule with just and fair rule of law > > enshrined in constitution. Only this can explain the coterie > > culture of leaders as seen in every political parties, Sonia with > > her one faith folowers as her inner circle, Advani with core > > idealogists as his advisers, less said it is better. > > > > Now our babus, with weak and corrupt leadrs to pamper, the babus > > for a nexus to keep these leaders happy and in the meanwhile > > feather their nests. Thus deprived citizens are frustrated lot, so > > naxal movement and other form of demand for fair rule of law is > > evident in the nation, but naxals when they take law in to their > > own hands towards reform of the system, they are outlawed, > > naturally. So are the religious fanatics as they take violence as a > > method of correction of the system.Hence rama sena and such other > > outfits are illegal as the method is illegal . > > > > The next is judiciary which in normal rule of laws is most > > respected of all the pillars of democracy. But when the retired > > chief justice of the highest court admits that there are 10 percent > > corrupt in judiciary, and we see the case of a judge not being > > impeached for regional considerations by "national" party, a chief > > justice fudging his date of birth to be in seat for a few more > > months, a chief justice shielding his sons in his official > > residence to avail 600 crore loans in non-existent land assets, > > judges in PF scams encashing employees' provident funds, judge > > keeping the funds in his personal account being the receiver of the > > court, are all indications of decay in judicial process. The chief > > justice who can not act when his judicial officer goes to London to > > release 21 crore to uncle Q with begging the crown prosecutors' > > office, but instead gets the promotion, and scam money reaches the > > culprit with the knowledge of the law minister and the beneficiary > > pretends ignora > > nce of the loot, what more certification is needed of the falling > > standards of judicial system other than untold delays and > > subversion of the system.? The lawyers playing with the process, > > bribing the witness, duress to witness is also not uncommon. > > > > The last of the pillars, the media, has its own fair share of > > corrupt men and women in journalism. The poll surveys, reportage of > > the events have ,ade the citizens realise that all the news are not > > news but only views of such blacksheep in journalism. As to rewards > > and awards, what service these blacksheep of media anchors served > > the society is big question mark as they seem to be more involved > > in newly evolved moral games of life styles and reportage of > > sensation rather that relevance to the society with trp as only > > driving forces. > > > > Unless the society and citizens understand and inculcate what is > > right and correct way of life irrespective of faith, ( as all > > faiths are only way of life to live life ethically and morally > > correct.) and what is wrong in societal life, the democratic rule > > of laws and god governance will be a mirage. > > > > Regards, > > > > Rajendra Uppinangadi, > > rajen882uppinangad at gmail.com. > > > > PS: Author is not member to the list if the moderator/ > > administrator feels fit may invite the author to be its member of > > the list, any way freedom of expression for author is not a right > > of obsession to rule other thoughts but to exchange all thoughts > > and take the best for the life. > > ----- Original Message ----- > > From: Rakesh Iyer > > Date: Wednesday, March 25, 2009 3:43 pm > > Subject: Re: [Reader-list] reader-list Digest, Vol 68,Issue > > 62Freedom and right to express at what cost to society.? > > To: bipin > > Cc: rajenradhika at vsnl.net, sarai-list > > > > > Dear all > > > > > > I can understand the point that freedom of expression is more > > > important than > > > peace, for after all any peace without any freedom of expression > > is > > > only the > > > lull before the storm waiting to happen. Plus of course, it > > hampers > > > one of > > > the basic human rights of citizens. > > > > > > However, the other question which is confusing my mind, as > > pointed > > > out in > > > the article, is regarding nation-states providing rights to > > > citizens. I > > > don't know much on this, so it would be good if we can discuss on > > > whetherit's nation-states which act as the agencies to provide > > > rights (and hence > > > without them people can't ask for rights), or is it that rights > > are > > > inherentirrespective of whether nation-states exist or not. > > > > > > Regards > > > > > > Rakesh > > > > > > > > > ------------------------------ > > > > Message: 2 > > Date: Sun, 29 Mar 2009 18:37:39 +0100 > > From: Taha Mehmood <2tahamehmood at googlemail.com> > > Subject: [Reader-list] Are News Channels emerging as arbitrators of > > the I-card discourse? > > To: reader-list > > Message-ID: > > <65be9bf40903291037o454b506v55465ecbba234004 at mail.gmail.com> > > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 > > > > Dear all > > > > CNN IBN's Kinnari Patel reports about a village called Nargol in > > Gujaratwhere it is mandatory for residents to have an I-card. All > > the villagers > > have shared their fingerprints with the local police, she ends her > > report by > > suggesting that, 'Nargol's is probably one story Gujarat and the > > rest of the > > country should take lessons from.'. Interestingly in another > > version of the > > same story, CNN IBN's Urunuday Majumdar suggests that, this experiment > > should be 'emulated' by the rest of india. > > > > Regards > > > > Taha > > > > Please follow the links below to check out the stories- > > > > http://ibnlive.in.com/videos/70576/crime-control-you-need-an-icard- > > to-enter-this-village.html > > > > http://ibnlive.in.com/news/crime-control-you-need-an-icard-to-enter- > > this-village/70576-3.html > > > > > > ------------------------------ > > > > Message: 3 > > Date: Mon, 30 Mar 2009 07:50:28 +0530 > > From: Anivar Aravind > > Subject: [Reader-list] "Free, Free Binayak Sen!" -- Report on U.S. > > Actions in Solidarity with the Raipur Satyagraha > > To: Greenyouth , Reader List > > , " > fourth-estate-critique at googlegroups.com" > > > > Message-ID: > > <35f96d470903291920m9ee9220wf85f3eec8ddea4a9 at mail.gmail.com> > > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 > > > > ---------- Forwarded message -------- > > [Thanks to all those who participated in Friday's solidarity action > > with the > > Raipur Satyagraha. Below is a report on the actions held in three > > differentcities in the US. Please forward to other groups.] > > http://www.binayaksen.net/2009/03/free-free-binayak-sen-report-on- > > us-protests/ > > ** > > *"Free, Free Binayak Sen!" * > > *50 international groups organize support in the USA for the Raipur > > Satyagraha **in India* > > *Simultaneous protests held in 3 US cities* > > > > * San > > Francisco, CA, > > New York, NY and Washington DC, 28 March, 2009:* Verve and vigor > > marked the > > simultaneous protests held at the Indian embassy and consulates in > > Washington DC, New York City and San Francisco on March 27th, > > demanding the > > immediate release of Dr. Binayak Sen, an end to the repressive > > ChhattisgarhSpecial People's Security Act (CSPSA) and disbanding of > > the state-sponsored > > militia, Salwa Judum. Activists from Association for India's > > Development(AID), Friends of South Asia (FOSA), South Asia > > Solidarity Initiative > > (SASI), International League of People's Struggles, students and > > facultyfrom local universities participated in these protests, > > coinciding with the > > *Raipur Satyagraha* *, > > *theongoing mass civil disobedience action in the city of Raipur > > where Dr. Sen > > is incarcerated. Over 50 groups from the US, UK and Canada have > > written to > > the Chhattisgarh government and offered their support to the Raipur > > Satyagraha, and nearly 600 individual faxes have also been sent to the > > Chhattisgarh government from around the world. > > > > The22-month > long, unjustifiable detention of Dr. Binayak > > Senhas become a > > rallying point for human rights and peace and justice groups in > > India and internationally. A pediatrician by training who chose to > > workwith the marginalized and malnourished people in remote > > villages of > > Chhattisgarh in central India, Dr. Binayak Sen has been recognized > > for his > > contributions to public health and human rights with the Paul Harrison > > award< > http://home.cmcvellore.ac.in/NewsLine/PAUL%20HARRISON%20AWARD%202004%20-%20Citation.pdf > >by > > his alma mater, the Christian Medical College, Vellore, the R.R. > > Keithan gold > > medal< > http://www.esocialsciences.com/News/NewsDetails.asp?Newsid=330&newstype=1>fromthe > Indian Academy of Social Sciences, and the Jonathan > > Mann Award by the > > GlobalHealth Council in Washington DC. As Vice-president of > > People's Union for > > Civil Liberties (PUCL), Dr Binayak Sen was > > instrumental in bringing to light the excesses of the Chhattisgarh > > government's security apparatus, notably the Salwa Judum, a state- > > sponsoredmilitia which has wreaked havoc in the villages of south > > Bastar district. > > Activists and intellectuals, including Noam Chomsky, Arundhati Roy, > > GeorgeGalloway, Mahashweta Devi, over 135 faculty members and 22 > > nobel laureates > > from around the world have joined in urging the Indian government > > to free > > Dr. Binayak Sen and stop the harassment of human rights activists. > > > > > Anu Mandavilli, > > with Friends > > of South Asia (FOSA), reminded > > theprotestors in San Francisco, that the one-year long trial of Dr. > > Sen, which > > included testimonies from over 50 government witnesses, has not > > produced a > > shred of evidence or a single witness who could corroborate the > > Government'sclaim that Dr. Sen engaged in seditious activities. > > "Yet, the courts have > > denied Dr. Sen's bail application three times. It is interesting > > to note > > that men from Shri Ram Sene, who beat up women in Mangalore pubs in > > front of > > cameras, were released on bail within 6 hours. Whereas Dr. Sen, > > with an > > impeccable 25-year record of public service, and no evidence > > against him, > > has been in jail for 22 months now." > > > > Angana > > Chatterji,associate professor, California Institute of Integral > > Studies, cited the > > harassment of other human rights defenders in Orissa and Kashmir, > > statingthat Dr. Sen's case represents an alarming trend where the > > Indian state is > > using draconian laws to silence those who oppose state repression. > > Indeed,Dr. Sen is only the most prominent among numerous human > > rights defenders and > > public intellectuals who languish in Indian jails because they > > dared to > > speak truth to power. > > > > > > < > http://docs.google.com/File?id=ddp3w2ff_43gwnvb6pk_b>InNew York, activists > gathered outside the Indian consulate to read Dr. Sen's > > New Year Letter from jail, recite poems from around the world in > > support of > > Dr. Sen, and sing songs of collective action. Jinee Lokaneeta of > > the South > > Asia Solidarity Initiative (SASI), and on the faculty at Drew > > University,drew attention to the fact that notwithstanding the > > floundering case against > > Dr. Sen, the government has recently produced an additional > > supplementarychargesheet against him. "By repeatedly denying Dr. > > Sen's bail application, > > and purposefully prolonging a meaningless trial, the state is > > ensuring that > > Dr. Sen stays in prison a long time, even if charges against him > > are never > > proved." > > > > Murli Natrajan, also of SASI and a faculty member at William Paterson > > University, added, "The laws used by the state to arrest Dr. Sen > > are truly > > draconian. These are the latest in the tradition of other harsh > > laws, such > > as MISA, TADA and POTA, each one of which had to be abandoned after > > beingdeclared unconstitutional by the highest judicial authorities, > > and after > > gross misuse by the state's security apparatus became apparent." > > > > Somu Kumar, > > with Association > > for India's Development (AID), and one > > of the > > organizers of the protest at the Indian embassy in Washington DC, > > highlighted that these protests are not limited to demanding the human > > rights of just one inidividual, Dr. Binayak Sen, but are in > > opposition to a > > system which criminalizes those who point out its shortcomings. > > "At this > > point, Dr. Sen is a symbol of many other ongoing struggles in > > India--especially those of the *adivasis*, the indigenous > > inhabitants of the > > mineral rich areas, who are resisting displacement by large mining > > companies, and whose rights Dr. Sen was championing. These > > protests are > > also to demand consideration for the human rights of the *adivasis *of > > Chhattisgarh, more than 100,000 of who are officially internally > > displacedpeople due to the actions of the state-sponsored Salwa > > Judum." > > < > http://docs.google.com/File?id=ddp3w2ff_45fpt6n8fs_b> < > http://docs.google.com/File?id=ddp3w2ff_45fpt6n8fs_b>< > http://docs.google.com/File?id=ddp3w2ff_44fgp6h9f8_b> > > A letter > > signed by > > more than 50 international peace and justice > > groups > Chapters/Maryland/campaign/Binayak_Sen_Org_Endorsement.pdf>,and a > > list of individuals who have faxed > > letters > support-of-the-raipur-satyagraha-for-release-of-dr-binayak-sen/>to > > the Chhattisgarh and central governments, were submitted to the Indian > > consular staff at each city who have guaranteed their delivery to > > the desks > > of the Chief Minister of Chhattisgarh, the President and Prime > > Minister of > > India, and the Chairperson of the National Human Rights Commission. > > Someactivists voiced their disappointment that the government of > > India had yet > > to acknowledge any of their previous submissions made over the > > course of the > > last year. "In spite of sending several hundred faxes, multiple > > letters,and individual emails to various officials, we have yet to > > hear back from a > > single government official that our letters have been received and > > read,leave alone considered," said Srividhya Venkataraman, with AID- > > Berkeley.She added, "The Indian government has made it a priority > > to reach out to > > NRIs. But if we, with multiple channels of communication available > > to us, > > have such difficulty in getting our voice heard, how must the Indian > > government respond to the concerns of an *adivasi *located in a remote > > village in Bastar!" > > > > Is anyone listening? > > ------------------------------ > > *For more information, see the following*: > > > > · Information on the Raipur Satyagraha for the Release of Dr. > > Binayak Sen > > is available here: http://raipursatyagraha.wordpress.com > > > > · More information on Dr. Binayak Sen and his case: > > > > o For a detailed analysis of the state’s case against Dr. Sen, read > > the3-part series in Indian Express by Vinay Sitapati: > > http://www.binayaksen.net/2009/01/indian-express-series-on-binayak- > > sen/ > > o A timeline of Binayak Sen’s case is available here: > > http://www.binayaksen.net/2009/01/timeline-of-events-in-the-strange- > > case-of-dr-binayak-sen/ > > > > o A compilation of news articles on Dr. Sen can be found at > > www.binayaksen.net , www.freebinayaksen.org and > > http://www.aidboston.org/FreeBinayakSen/media.htm > > > > · On Chhattisgarh Special Public Security Act, 2005: > > > > o The text of the law and its analysis by People’s Union for > > DemocraticRights can be found here: > > http://cpjc.wordpress.com/chhattisgarh-special-public-security-act/ > > > > o A law and its victim, Ajoy Ashirwad Mahaprashasta, Frontline, Oct- > > Nov 2008 > > http://www.hinduonnet.com/fline/fl2522/stories/20081107252212400.htm > > > > o Caught between Naxals and police, Indian Express, June 11, 2008 > > > http://in.news.yahoo.com/indianexpress/20080611/r_t_ie_nl_general/tnl-caught-between-naxals-and-police-aaaedd4_1.html > > > > · Fact-finding reports on Salwa Judum can be obtained from the > > website for > > the Campaign for Peace and Justice in Chhattisgarh, > > http://cpjc.wordpress.com/reports-by-fact-finding-teams-on-salwa- > > judum/ > > · Letter to the Chhattisgarh government by over 50 international > > peace and > > justice groups can be found here: > > http://docs.aidindia.org/Documents/AID- > > Chapters/Maryland/campaign/Binayak_Sen_Org_Endorsement.pdf > > > > > > ------------------------------ > > *Photo Credits*: Pei Wu, Sangay Mishra, Somu Kumar and Balaji > > Narasimhan*For more information*, contact: > > Shalini Gera, mail at friendsofsouthasia.org > > Murli Natrajan, mnatrajan at yahoo.com > > > > > > > > > > -- > > Any responsible politician should be encouraging a home grown Free > > Softwareindustry because it creates the basis for future jobs. > > Learning Windows is > > like learning to eat every meal at McDonalds. > > > > > > ------------------------------ > > > > Message: 4 > > Date: Mon, 30 Mar 2009 11:34:27 +0530 > > From: bipin > > Subject: [Reader-list] Re: The decline of the 'encounter death' > > To: Taha Mehmood <2tahamehmood at googlemail.com> > > Cc: sarai-list > > Message-ID: <002101c9b0fd$62d23e90$0201a8c0 at limo> > > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 > > > > Dear Taha, > > > > Its question of common sense and no study is required. The man who > > accused remains in custody for long time and waiting for their > > hearing in court to come. During the time they are mentally down or > > may go under depression, which effects their health heavily. Police > > strictness to get truth adds fuel to their mental/physical illness > > position. If he proved innocent after pretty long time (say 8/10 > > years) but mentally he would be tired and his health effected > > heavily. > > > > > > > > No doubt, there might be cases of police atrocities, but looking to > > the cases comes with police and court, this figure is negligible. > > Also, the figure appear may be after studies, not necessarily true. > > Since they just count death not only at jail, but death occur at > > home, but case going on can also be counted. They are no > > clarification in their data. > > > > > > > > For each and every thing one should not see in the eye research or > > studies. Even thing I have noticed that after long research, data > > achieved can also be easily understood by common sense. > > > > > > > > > > thanks > > > > Bipin > > > > > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > From: Taha Mehmood > > To: bipin > > Sent: Monday, March 30, 2009 7:29 AM > > Subject: Re: [Reader-list] The decline of the 'encounter death' > > > > > > Dear Bipin > > > > Please tell me what has our judicial system got to do with > > custodial deaths? What is the co-relationship between delay in > > court cases and out dated laws and people dying under police > > custody? Are there any studies or any figures that you would wish > > to quote here or are we to believe your seemingly outrageous claims > > on the basis of your word only? Again a primary reading of your > > post might lead us to assume that ALL custodial deaths involve > > people who are 'criminals', is that the case? If so then could you > > please substantiate your argument. > > > > Regards > > > > Taha > > > > > > > > > > > > ------------------------------ > > > > _______________________________________________ > > reader-list mailing list > > reader-list at sarai.net > > https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > > > > > > End of reader-list Digest, Vol 68, Issue 76 > > ******************************************* > > > > > ------------------------------ > > _______________________________________________ > reader-list mailing list > reader-list at sarai.net > https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > > > End of reader-list Digest, Vol 69, Issue 3 > ****************************************** > -- Live And Let Live! From machleetank at gmail.com Sat Apr 4 01:41:40 2009 From: machleetank at gmail.com (Jasmeen Patheja) Date: Sat, 4 Apr 2009 01:41:40 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] [Announcements] MAKE YOUR STREET SIGN : DEADLINE MAY 17 In-Reply-To: <277f58b70904031302q527283c0v5da382988a24bba@mail.gmail.com> References: <277f58b70904030758h22d28175rdd7ce27535c90f75@mail.gmail.com> <277f58b70904031126t44bb0885n28f96963e3a4e0d2@mail.gmail.com> <277f58b70904031302q527283c0v5da382988a24bba@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: Hello This one's on behalf of Blank Noise-it's an event to create street signs in the city. (details below). best wishes, Jasmeen ----- *Make a street sign* *///////////////////////////////* It can be in any city , street , lane , neighbourhood you want. You could think of signs in buses, parks, night clubs, movie halls, malls and markets- it is up to you to spell out which kind of place you want your sign in. It could even be in sites where women have experienced street sexual harassment- like here . You are welcome to say anything you want. * Guidelines: * 1. we encourage submissions that are affirmative. 2. your submission should include a brief note about which place you want to insert the sign in and why 3. it could be in any language but an English translation is important. 4. It does not need to have text. It could just be visual. 5. It does not need to have visual. It could just be text. 6. It could have both text and visual. 7. You must send us a web friendly jpg/ png/ file, but remember not to throw away the original vector file in case yours is selected for printing! 8. you may be the recruiter- you could involve your local network to work on this. for example- if you are a teacher- this could be a class assignment. If you are in college- you could organize a community of people to work on this. 9. Some of you might have better writing skills than visualization skills, in that case you are welcome to send text for a street sign. Based on the response to this event we might have the option of someone with visual skills partnering with you to make this sign. 10. keep it simple Your street sign will be put on the Blank Noise blog + flickr. 3 signs will be selected to be tried and tested in public. The selected signs could also be printed on t shirts. Deadline: 17th May. 2009 * Sign UP! Be an Action Hero! ////////////////////////////////////////////////* Confirm your participation by emailing us at blurtblanknoise at gmail dot com subject titled SIGN. We will add your name to the list here http://blog.blanknoise.org/2009/04/make-sign.html We are always available to chat with you about your idea for the street sign before your submission. ** resources/ reference In the past we have discussed this and thisand this and thisand this and this *Yours truly Blank Noise Team * * BLANK NOISE* http://blog.blanknoise.org http://blanknoiseactionheroes.blogspot.com http://blanknoisespectators.blogspot.com http://flickr.com/photos/blanknoisethisplace http://flickr.com/photos/blanknoise http://www.facebook.com/groups.php?ref=sb#/group.php?gid=2703755288 http://www.facebook.com/group.php?gid=142739725581&ref=ts -------------- next part -------------- _______________________________________________ announcements mailing list announcements at sarai.net https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/announcements From pawan.durani at gmail.com Sun Apr 5 11:05:42 2009 From: pawan.durani at gmail.com (Pawan Durani) Date: Sun, 5 Apr 2009 11:05:42 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Kashmir Dispute, The Myth - Part VI Message-ID: <6b79f1a70904042235r43e71d31yfe70e78059da3149@mail.gmail.com> Kashmir Dispute, The Myth-VI "History vindicated Maharaja Hari Singh's Stand" By Dr. M.K. Teng Few in-depth investigations and inquiries have been undertaken so far to unravel the forces and factors, which shaped the events in Jammu and Kashmir, during the fateful days following the transfer of power in India. No investigations were ever carried out in the actions of men, who were at the helm of affairs in India, Pakistan and Jammu and Kashmir, their motivations and their personal prejudices. Much of what happened those days, has been covered under false propaganda by the Government of India as well as the  Government of Pakistan and the Interim Government which was instituted in Jammu and Kashmir after the accession of the State to India. A widespread disinfor-mation campaign was launched by the Interim Government in collusion with the Government to find scapegoats for their failures and to apportion blame, where it did not belong. The sordid story of what happened in the state, those days, is yet to be told. Pakistan sought to bend the procedure laid down by the Indian Independence Act for the transfer of power in India, to grab the Muslim majority states as well as the states ruled by Muslim Princes. The Indian Government failed signally to counteract the stratagem, subversion and military intervention, Pakistan employed to achieve its objectives. Perhaps the British, who had quit India, still cast a shadow on the Indian outlook. The Congress leadership with its liberalist tradition which denied the civilisational boundaries of the Indian nation, continued to play the Muslim card, to prove that Jammu and Kashmir would be more Islamic than the Muslim State of Pakistan after its inclusion in the Indian Dominion. The Congress leaders wanted Maharaja Hari Singh to follow what they did in collusion with Mountabatten to retrieve Junagarh and bring round the Nawab of Hyderabad to come to terms, with India. Gandhi advised Hari Singh, during his visit to Kashmir, towards the close of July 1947, to (a) transfer the powers of the State Government to the representatives of his Muslim subjects, who formed a majority of the population of the state; (b) hold fresh elections to the Praja Sabha, the State Legislative Assembly, on the basis of universal adult franchise and (c) entrust the Praja Sabha with the task of taking a decision on the accession of the state. The meeting between Hari Singh and Mahatma Gandhi was held on the lawns of the Gupkar Palace, situated on the eastern bank of the Dal Lake in Srinagar. Maharani Tara Devi and the Heir-Apparent Karan Singh were present in the meeting. The only other man present in the meeting was a senior officer of the state army, who acted as an aide to the Maharaja and prepared the situation report of the meeting for the military archives of the state. Gandhi had lost touch with the developments in the princely states. He was not aware of the dangerous  situation in Jammu and Kashmir. He did not know that an armed rebellion was brewing in the Muslim majority districts of the Jammu province, where arms and ammunition were being dumped by the elements of the Muslim League from a  cross the border of the state with the Punjab. He was hardly aware of the sharp divide between the Kashmiri speaking Muslims and non-Kashmiri speaking Muslims. He did not know that the non-Kashmiri speaking Muslims, who constituted nearly half the Muslim population of state along with a small section of the Kashmiri-speaking Muslims owing loyality to the Mirwaiz, the chief Muslim divine of Kashmir, supported the Muslim Conference, which spearheaded the struggle for Pakistan. He was completely unaware of the fact that the Kashmiri-speaking Muslims constituted about half the population of the Muslims of the State and together with the Hindus, the Sikhs and the Buddhists they formed more than sixty percent of the population of the State. The Hindus, the Sikhs and the Buddhists, a million people, constituted more than a quarter of the population of the State. Gandhi was completely unaware of the impact of the partition on the leaders and cadres of the National Conference, which had its main support bases in the community of the Kashmiri-speaking Muslims, largely concentrated in the Kashmir province. He did not know that an influential section of the leaders and cadres of the National Conference favoured a reconsideration of the commitment of the National Conference to the unity of India. Gandhi believed that by seeking to divest Hari Singh of his powers to determine the future affiliation of the State in respect of its accession and empowering his Muslim subjects to take a decision on the accession of the state, he would be able to create a precedent for the rulers of the Muslim ruled states, to entrust their powers to determine the future affiliations of their states their Hindu subjects, who formed a majority of their population. Nearly all the Muslim ruled states, barring a few of them situated within the territories delimited for the Muslim State of Pakistan, nearly all the Muslim ruled States in India, including the major states of Hyderabad, Junagarh, Bhopal, were populated by preponderant Hindu majorities. Perhaps, Gandhi believed that the Muslims of Jammu and Kashmir committed to support the accession of the state to India, would opt to join India after power was transferred to them and they were empowered to  determine the future affiliations of the state. He was convinced that the transfer of power in Jammu and Kashmir would provide him a moral ground to bring round Pakistan as well as Mountbatten to persuade the Muslim rulers to abnegate from their power to determine the future affiliations of their states and entrust their subjects and of whom the Hindus formed a majority, to opt for India. Gandhi and the other Indian leaders did not even get the wind of the secret preparations in Pakistan for military intervention in the Jammu and Kashmir State in the name of the Jehad for the liberation of the Muslims from their subjection to the Dogra Rule, while Gandhi went on a indefinite fast to prevent communal violence in India which threatened the Muslims, Pakistan prepared feverishly for the invasion of the state. Pakistan planned to reduce the state by military force and then deal with India from a position of strength in respect of Junagarh and Hyderabad. Junagarh had acceded to Pakistan and Hyderabad was plotting the align itself with Pakistan to remain out of India. Had Hari Singh accepted Gandhi's advice he would have provided open ground for Pakistan and the Muslim League to grab the state by stratagem and force. Gandhi's suggestion to hold the elections to the Praja Sabha would have enabled the Muslim Conference and the flanks of pro-Pakistan Muslim activists, operating underground, to sabotage the National Conference and use religious appeal for Jehad to pack the Praja Sabha with the Muslim Conference. Any stringent measures adopted by him to prohibit religious propaganda in the elections would have brought him the blame of having settled the expression for the will of the Muslims. In case he did not take effective measures to prohibit the use of religious propaganda in the elections he would virtually leave the field open for the Muslim Jehad to take over. Hari Singh had borne the ravages of Muslim communalism. He had also faced the scourage of the Paramountcy. The Congress leaders had installed Mountbatten as the first Governor General of the Dominion of India. Hari Singh had rebuffed Mountbatten and refused to abide by his advice to join Pakistan. Mountbatten, later events proved, had not forgotten the slight Hari Singh had caused to him. The Maharaja did not allow himself to be arranged before the man, who had spared no efforts to push his state into Pakistan for his management. He refused to accept Gandhi's advice. Hari Singh contested Gandhi's views on the accession of the state and refused to abnegate from his rightful obligation to determine the future of his state. He told Gandhi, in measured words in the presence of Maharani Tara Devi, who regarded the Mahatma in awe, that the safety and the security of the Hindus and the other minorities in the state was uppermost in his mind, and he would not abandon them at any cost. He insisted upon the recognition of his rights as the ruler of the state to determine the basis of his future relations with India. He reminded Gandhi that nor only had the lapse of the Paramountcy vested in him the right to determine the future of the State, the Indian States Ministry had recognised the rights of the rulers of the States as the basis of their accession to India and he could not be treated in a manner different from the way, the rulers of all other acceding states had been treated. Gandhi gave expression to his feelings in a statement he gave to the press in Punjab, on his way back to Delhi. He said that Jammu and Kashmir was a Muslim state and therefore, its future must be determined by Muslims who formed a majority of its population. He denounced the treaties between the Princes and the British as "parchments of paper" and decried the claims made by the Princes to any rights arising out of such treaties. Hari Singh did not accept the surrender to a Muslim majority identity as the basis of a settlement of the accession of the state. He refused to become part of the process to consolidate the borders of the Muslim state of Pakistan, which Mountbatten and the Congress leaders visualised as the guarantee of the unity of India. Later events proved Hari Singh right. Pakistan strove hard to hold Junagarh and openly supported Hyderabad in its endeavour to remain out of India. Pakistan invaded the State, irrespective of the procedure laid down by the Indian Independence Act, for the lapse of the Paramountcy, showing little regard for the ruler of Jammu and Kashmir and the people of Junagarh and Hyderabad. Source: Kashmir Sentinel, Panun Kashmir publication From aliens at dataone.in Sun Apr 5 11:47:14 2009 From: aliens at dataone.in (bipin) Date: Sun, 05 Apr 2009 11:47:14 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] secularism References: <004301c9b358$fc0ca1b0$0201a8c0@limo> Message-ID: <001801c9b5b6$2a6e0b20$0201a8c0@limo> Dear Asad, Good analysis, as you say it has different meaning in different context. thanks. I will reply for the same after few days. thanks Bipin ----- Original Message ----- From: asad abbasi To: aliens at dataone.in ; reader-list at sarai.net Sent: Sunday, April 05, 2009 5:55 AM Subject: RE: [Reader-list] secularism Dear Bipin (and all) I think your provocation to define secularism is quite interesting. I wonder why is it that you want to cling to this word? I can understand the importance is word has in the Indian context but don't you think that there cannot be a single definition of this word or any word ever which is universally binding. You see for so long as we as human beings can see, hear, think, feel, perceive, comprehend and articulate, we will continue to keep up making words, naming things and defining them. You suggest secularism. I think this is a remarkable word. But before I put forth what I am able to conjecture from this word please allow me to suggest that we take into our consideration what people who came before us thought about this word. It's like Goethe, writing, if you do not know much about five thousand years of human existence, you are practically living from hand to mouth. Now I am not an expert on Goethe, I just read this quote on the beginning, rather on the first page of Jostein Gaarder's beautiful work Sophie's world and it sort of stayed with me. Coming back to secular. What are we talking about here, is it some sort of a constitutional definition, etymological definition, literary definition, cultural definition, philosophical definition, political definition, social definition or a definition as it has been given to us by the history of sedimentation of human utterances. Take your pick? More than that any such singular defintion or its combination will be faced with predicaments. Why? Because they will be at best some sort of, social construsts liable to meaning making and intrepretations. But since I have promised in the beginning of this post to provide you with a definiton, then, I think, I should. So here goes, for me secular is that which has helped the Indian National Congress help win votes all these years, and pseudo-secular is that which has BJP helped win votes. The brutal irony of it all is that this beautiful, poetic word secular means the same thing, when tranlated onto ground meaning-riots, murders, butcherings, arson, rapes and what not. Secular and its anti-thesis mean the same thing. But we are merely talking here aren't we? Wating for your reply Warm regards Asad ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Surfing the web just got more rewarding. Download the New Internet Explorer 8 From rajen882uppinangadi at gmail.com Sun Apr 5 13:41:27 2009 From: rajen882uppinangadi at gmail.com (Rajen Uppinangadi) Date: Sun, 5 Apr 2009 13:41:27 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] secularly secular. Message-ID: <61164a90904050111raf2d914qb084ce7533ce7db3@mail.gmail.com> It is indeed interesting views about being secular and its hues of definitions. As I see it all faiths are secular, if they are not under control of its clergies.Because all faiths teach us of compassion, empathy, concerns for fellow living beings and good way of life to live ethically and morally correct.All faiths talk of love( not in western meaning of love making) to other s in society, and secular life in democratic rule of governance means all citizens get good governance, right to property and all fundamental rights so that they can be facilitated by good governance to avail all opportunities in life without depriving others of their rights.And that is dharma, or duty to accept rights of others to live as they feel fit, without impinging on others rights in society.Respect to other individuals rights is the duty or dharma as long as it does not hurt the societal peace and harmony, if it does the laws are there to take action, and none can take laws in their hands to correct the deviant behaviour of the few. As we see today, the clergies have bigger role in some faiths, they after prayers provoke the followers of faith into violent acts, only to strengthen their hold on the community so as to deliver votes to the needy who pay the price for such votes, not to community but to these self proclaimed leaders of the community. Thus they become king makers of the community. This is more marked in christian faith and some ects of islamic clergies and we see the taliban and evil effects of such clergies who have no respect for rights of individuals of their own faith.! In christian faith the role of pope onwards is that of a fascist dictator who orders with money power to harvest souls of the poor and convert them with material needs. It only reflects the fact that bad governance, governance of discrimination on caste and faith has made all feel deprived and thus naalism, deviant fanatism of violence is born out of bad governance.Proper implementation of rule of laws will be only method were individuals do not take laws into their own hands at the percieved injustice in governance where the judiciary acts promptly to prosecute the violaters of rule of laws. Any faith helps individual to have good ethical, moral material life, intellectual life and spiritual life at his/her own choice, but clergies mess up the life with fanatism, with their considered dos and donts. Every individual knows what is correct, and what is wrong for him.When an individual respects others rights in practice of his rights, that is happyness for all in society. Regards.. From c.anupam at gmail.com Sun Apr 5 17:21:59 2009 From: c.anupam at gmail.com (anupam chakravartty) Date: Sun, 5 Apr 2009 17:21:59 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] secularly secular. In-Reply-To: <61164a90904050111raf2d914qb084ce7533ce7db3@mail.gmail.com> References: <61164a90904050111raf2d914qb084ce7533ce7db3@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <341380d00904050451v2a32debaue46b063c84e32b52@mail.gmail.com> mr rajen what do you precisely mean by "all faith talk of love (not in the western meaning of love making)"? it is because of the lack of knowledge of the your epistemological and ethical past which is why politicians taking advantage of the secular ideals and twisting it for their own purpose. love in all sense of term be it physical or spiritual is love. and if your so called western meaning has lust attached to it then hindu men are more lusty. there are more rapists in this country. during riots they rape women, all of them. and then holier than thou statement about clergy citing examples from christianity...did u forget asaram bapu? or chandraswami? anupam On 4/5/09, Rajen Uppinangadi wrote: > It is indeed interesting views about being secular and its hues of > definitions. > As I see it all faiths are secular, if they are not under control of its > clergies.Because all faiths teach us of compassion, empathy, concerns for > fellow living beings and good way of life to live ethically and morally > correct.All faiths talk of love( not in western meaning of love making) to > other s in society, and secular life in democratic rule of governance means > all citizens get good governance, right to property and all fundamental > rights so that they can be facilitated by good governance to avail all > opportunities in life without depriving others of their rights.And that is > dharma, or duty to accept rights of others to live as they feel fit, > without > impinging on others rights in society.Respect to other individuals rights > is > the duty or dharma as long as it does not hurt the societal peace and > harmony, if it does the laws are there to take action, and none can take > laws in their hands to correct the deviant behaviour of the few. > > As we see today, the clergies have bigger role in some faiths, they after > prayers provoke the followers of faith into violent acts, only to > strengthen > their hold on the community so as to deliver votes to the needy who pay the > price for such votes, not to community but to these self proclaimed leaders > of the community. Thus they become king makers of the community. > > This is more marked in christian faith and some ects of islamic clergies > and we see the taliban and evil effects of such clergies who have no > respect > for rights of individuals of their own faith.! > > In christian faith the role of pope onwards is that of a fascist dictator > who orders with money power to harvest souls of the poor and convert them > with material needs. It only reflects the fact that bad governance, > governance of discrimination on caste and faith has made all feel deprived > and thus naalism, deviant fanatism of violence is born out of bad > governance.Proper implementation of rule of laws will be only method were > individuals do not take laws into their own hands at the percieved > injustice > in governance where the judiciary acts promptly to prosecute the violaters > of rule of laws. > > Any faith helps individual to have good ethical, moral material life, > intellectual life and spiritual life at his/her own choice, but clergies > mess up the life with fanatism, with their considered dos and donts. Every > individual knows what is correct, and what is wrong for him.When an > individual respects others rights in practice of his rights, that is > happyness for all in society. > > Regards.. > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > subscribe in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> From kmvenuannur at gmail.com Sun Apr 5 22:29:16 2009 From: kmvenuannur at gmail.com (Venugopalan K M) Date: Sun, 5 Apr 2009 22:29:16 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] "Secularly Secular"..? Message-ID: <1f9180970904050959h141926d7lf0a38932b37b5413@mail.gmail.com> Abhorrent indeed is Mr. Rajen Uppinangadi's (mis)concept of Love,Western and Indian! (Why doesn't he speak about Hindu Talibans , like Sri Ram Sene or the like? Why doesn't he speak about the perpetual hate agenda of the RSS and its parivar? Why does he think that every body else in this forum is too dull-witted to be able to see through all these games and call a spade a spade?) This snobbishness is beyond any limit .. Does the sarai postings have sort of moderation policy or not? Venu. -- http://venukm.blogspot.com/ From pawan.durani at gmail.com Sun Apr 5 23:35:49 2009 From: pawan.durani at gmail.com (Pawan Durani) Date: Sun, 5 Apr 2009 23:35:49 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Rahul turns crorepati Message-ID: <6b79f1a70904051105r247081aft4ee641ffe66f962f@mail.gmail.com> *Rahul turns crorepati in 5 years* *SULTANPUR, Apr 4:** *Congress general secretary Rahul Gandhi has become four times richer since last Lok sabha polls in 2004 and is now a crorepati, owning properties and other valuables worth over Rs 2.33 crore. However, he does not own a vehicle. Mr Gandhi has become richer by over Rs 1.70 crore in the last five years which is four times more his total assets he had shown during his nomination for last Lok Sabha elections. His assets in 2004 were around Rs 62.35 lakh, including over Rs 25 lakh deposits in banks in foreign countries. The Congress leader, who filed his nominations from Amethi Lok Sabha seat today, has disclosed in his affidavit that he has also taken a loan of Rs 70 lakh from HDFC bank, of which Rs 23.25 lakh was still to be repaid. During 2004 Lok Sabha elections, in which Mr Gandhi made his maiden entry in politics, he had about Rs 11 lakh in Indian banks, nearly 30,000 pounds and 19,000 dollar in banks abroad, besides investments of over Rs 7 lakh. In 2004, Mr Gandhi had 27,700 pounds at Westminster Bank in England, besides three other foreign accounts having 18,600 dollar, 600 dollar and 2,700 pounds, amounting to around over Rs 25 lakh in Indian currency at that time. He had also invested about Rs 3.9 lakh in shares besides having jewellery estimated at Rs 1.25 lakh and LIC and other saving certificates worth Rs 3.80 lakh during last elections. As his education status, Mr Gandhi mentioned that he had passed senior secondary in 1989, Bachelor of Arts from Rollins College, Florida (USA) in 1994 and M Phil in development and economics from Trinity College in Cambridge in 1995. The Congress leader had purchased two shops at Metropolitan Mall, Saket in New Delhi with one valued at Rs 1.08 crore and another at Rs 55.80 lakh. He has also paid Income Tax (2008-09) to the tune of Rs 11,20,880 and Service Tax (2008-09) of Rs 5,32,596. The leader has Rs 10.92 lakh in three banks of New Delhi while Rs 70,000 cash in hand. The breakup of the bank deposits was Rs 7,744.56 in SBI, Rs 7,42,966.38 in Citibank and Rs 3,41,892 in HDFC bank. Although Mr Gandhi does not possess any shares or debentures, but he has LIC policies and NCS worth Rs 10.29 lakh and have jewellery of 333.300 gm worth Rs 1.5 lakh. He also gets Rs 7.29 lakh as interests from banks and other sources. As immobile property, Mr Gandhi owns a farm house in Mehrauli worth Rs 9.86 lakh and over six acre of agricultural land at village Mauza Hassanpur, Tehsil Hodal, Faridabad, Haryana worth over Rs 28.22 lakh.(UNI) From pawan.durani at gmail.com Sun Apr 5 23:39:12 2009 From: pawan.durani at gmail.com (Pawan Durani) Date: Sun, 5 Apr 2009 23:39:12 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Communists ask for forgiveness for acts committed in past Message-ID: <6b79f1a70904051109l646b64cbnf61e805708d58381@mail.gmail.com> http://www.business-standard.com/india/news/cpimdefensive-seeks-forgiveness/354025/ Party cadres told to go to people and seek forgiveness for their acts committed in the past. The CPI(M) in West Bengal has finally decided to do something which it had not done in the last three decades: seek people’s forgiveness. Biman Bose, the state secretary of the ruling party, has repeatedly asked his party cadres to go to people and seek forgiveness for their acts committed in the past. Earlier, Bose had gone to public while addressing an election meeting in Purulia, saying that “some of our leaders have become arrogant”. Though he did not identify any of those “arrogant” leaders, he later pursued the issue in the CPI(M) state secretariat and Left Front meetings. He also admitted in public that he had advised the party cadres to tender an apology to the people for their past arrogance. Following the CPI(M), the Forward Bloc (FB), another Left Front partner, has also taken the same approach. Yesterday, at a meeting of the party’s trade union wing TUCC, FB state secretary Ashok Ghosh urged the cadres not to show arrogance in their behaviour towards people and also to seek forgiveness for their past acts, if any. In other words, this is an admission from the top leaders that three decades of uninterrupted power has created a class of arrogant leaders and cadres which in turn is pushing the people away from the Left. Gurudas Dasgupta, the CPI MP from Bengal who is now busy fighting another electoral battle from Ghatal (after the delimitation process, the old Panskura constituency has been renamed as Ghatal), feels this is good tactical move. “It is a defensive game, where defence is the best offence,” he says. But the Opposition detects a streak of nervousness in these campaign tactics. Congress leader Manas Bhuian is convinced that the “CPI(M) now is nervous. It could read the writing on the wall and that forced it to change the tactic. But power has gone to their head. They are giddy with success and for that they can’t change their attitude overnight”. Sudip Banerjee, the TMC candidate from North Kolkata, feels: “The CPI(M) is now really on the defensive. But no matter how much it tries to extricate itself from this position, it won’t succeed. It is too little and too late.” But a section of CPI(M) leaders, who are close to Biman Bose, believe that this move might put a stop to the erosion of support in the rural areas where in the recent past the Left suffered a series of electoral setbacks. Last year, after having a major debacle in the panchayat elections, the party tried to find out the causes of the setback. The review brought out the seamy side of the party organisation at the grassroots level, where leaders have amassed huge power in their hands and turned into tyrants themselves. For the party, it was a revelation, but the people knew it already through their day to day experiences. Incidentally, along that line, a move to sideline some of those leaders in the election was also mooted by the leadership but finally discarded after considering it too hasty while finalising the candidates’ list. According to insiders, by asking the party cadres to be more humble in their approach to the people, Biman Bose also wants to send a signal to those party satraps to fall in line. It is to be watched if the measures taken at the higher level can discipline the party organisation, but truly it is a climb-down from the position they earlier used to enjoy in the state. From rana at ranadasgupta.com Mon Apr 6 07:13:13 2009 From: rana at ranadasgupta.com (Rana Dasgupta) Date: Mon, 06 Apr 2009 07:13:13 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Readings from my novel, "Solo", in Bangalore, Chennai, Kolkata and Mumbai Message-ID: <49D95E31.9080406@ranadasgupta.com> Dear All I'm posting below details of upcoming readings from my new novel, "Solo". Please come if you happen to be close by... Very best R ************************************ Thursday 9th April, 7pm Reliance TimeOut 74 Cunningham Road, Bangalore Rana Dasgupta in conversation with writer and critic Vijay Nair Saturday 11th April, 6.30pm Landmark, Apex Plaza, Chennai Rana Dasgupta in conversation with poet and novelist Tishani Doshi Thursday 16th April, 7pm Starmark, South City Mall, Kolkata Rana Dasgupta presents his new novel, "Solo" Friday 17th April, 7pm Crossword, Kemps Corner, Mumbai Rana Dasgupta in conversation with poet, novelist and musician Jeet Thayil ************************************ "A novel of exceptional, astonishing strangeness, 'Solo' confirms Rana Dasgupta as the most unexpected and original Indian writer of his generation." - SALMAN RUSHDIE "What a delight to find a novelist unfazed by the 21st century ... This is an important work. Already it's my tip for the Man Booker this year." - NIGEL KRAUTH, "THE AUSTRALIAN" "'Solo' is ... utterly unforgettable in its humanity." - KAPKA KASSABOVA, "THE GUARDIAN" "'Solo' is a nuanced and virtuoso performance." - STUART KELLY, "SCOTLAND ON SUNDAY" "'Solo' is beautifully symphonic - elegiac and prophetic, underpinned by intelligence, compassion and a wonderfully unfettered imagination. It’s a necessary as well as a timely novel." - JOANNE HAYDEN, "SUNDAY BUSINESS POST" "'Solo' emerges from a tangle of failures and disappointments to show the beauty in an ordinary life that is lived across extraordinary times." - ELEANOR LIMPRECHT, "SUN HERALD" (AUSTRALIA) ************************************ Rana Dasgupta www.ranadasgupta.com From parthaekka at gmail.com Mon Apr 6 09:39:18 2009 From: parthaekka at gmail.com (Partha Dasgupta) Date: Mon, 6 Apr 2009 09:39:18 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] reader-list Digest, Vol 68, Issue 76 In-Reply-To: References: <32144e990904020756y4d60e493l144c69016f4cc3b4@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <32144e990904052109h6bb6a352icedff20fd88b1d50@mail.gmail.com> Hi, Since you respond to the mails from Rajen Radhika's account, presume you know that member of the Sarai list well. In that case, ask them how to subscribe to the Sarai list. It does not require an 'invitation'. Odd that you began to post messages from someone else's account with out even asking that person how to subscribe to the list. Rgds, Partha ............ On 03/04/2009, rajenradhika at vsnl.net wrote: > > > Sir, > my heartfelt thanks for your suggestion, but the fact is I am not > member of the list, inspite of request to be invited as member, because, may > be I do not "belong" to any camp, viz: communists, secularists or > communalists as the list seem to be having certain preference in numbers to > have them on the list.? > > More over, Rajen radhika is the reciepient of the digest, I read it and > at times feel compelled to respond when the issues at debate get bogged down > to one issue of "kashmor" and at times in issus of religion and faiths. > Debates when get sidetracked into something where nothing concrete is > achievable remain just blank noise.! > > In democratic life, the truth of the matter is the faith is totally of > personal domain, in society all citizens must get good governance > irrespective of their faith, region or caste. The faiking system can change > only when citizens take to change not otherwise. If citizens understand that > they have duties as well when they seek personal rights in the society, the > society will be tolerent of the rights of the individuals and becomes > tolerent society with individuals honouring the rights of other citizens, as > a matter of duty, thus even individuals become tolerent of others rights > in society. > > Regards. > > Rajendra Uppinangadi > rajen882uppinangadi at gmail.com; > 98450 27103 > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: Partha Dasgupta > Date: Thursday, April 2, 2009 8:27 pm > Subject: Re: [Reader-list] reader-list Digest, Vol 68, Issue 76 > To: rajenradhika at vsnl.net > Cc: reader-list at sarai.net > > > Dear Rajendra, > > > > Would appreciate it if you reply to the main mail instead of the > > debate - > > with regular responses is not possible to co-relate what is > > happening in the > > debate with your in-between responses to digest mails. > > > > Rgds, Partha > > ................. > > Partha Dasgupta > > +919811047132 > > > > > > On Thu, Apr 2, 2009 at 12:40 PM, wrote: > > > > > > > > Dear All, > > > it is really amusing to me when I raise the topic on reality > > check of > > > indian democracy, the so called intelligentia of the sari readers > > list is > > > deadly silence and not even one response to the thoughts put in > > the post. ! > > > > > > If I were to post some thoughts about how the communism and its > > leaders> are parasytes on labour class, living their life on the > > subscriptions paid > > > by the poor working class, there would be enough responses > > justifying the > > > leaders actions, if I were to talk about the rape of a young girl > > in Singur > > > by goon cadres, murders and grievious hurt inflicted on poor > > citizens to > > > deprive them of their right to property some more responses from > > "secular"> intellect. > > > > > > But if I were to talk of rule of laws that is being subverted in > > > democratic governance of the nation, the blame game starts of > > blaming the > > > major community and the politics of vote banks of hindus, very > > amusing> indeed. If lakhs of followers of one faith form a jammaath > > it is not > > > communal, if lakhs of a caste say, yadavs form a party and then > > its leader > > > loots the fodder funds, he is very secular, if he stops the > > peaceful Rath > > > yathra, thus causing riots, it is the responsibilty of the leader > > Advani.?> If I talk of judges who fudge their date of births and > > loot 600 crores > > > in official residence thru their sons on non-existing assets, if > > the judges > > > gulp down crores of PF money for their comforts, judiciary is > > still clean > > > and honest.? If the Law minister clandestinely operates to send > > the court > > > official to London to defreeze the account, we have a chief > > justice who has > > > no powers to take suo moto note of this dirty operation of > > kickbacks being > > > reverted to uncle Q.? The same law minister warns a convict and a > > friend of > > > terrorist to contest from his party or otherwise... the highest > > court> applies its mind.? > > > > > > A simple land dispute about a dilapidated structure on land > > belonging to > > > maharaja awauts judgement of judiciary for decades, if the > > structire not > > > even used for prayer becomes a masjid to evoke emotional > > respones, what sort > > > of calibre is these judges have who can not dispose off the cases > > and> adjudicate them at the earliest, so that the political parties > > do not use it > > > as vote gathering tool in democratic elections.? > > > > > > The chief justice finds technical loop holes to save the officer > > of the > > > election commission even when he loots crores of rupess in his > > wifes NGO, > > > and becomes a mole for the political party, and the contribution of > > > judiciary is immense in this type of actions where they do not > > seem to have > > > guts to talk of corruption in Election commission. EPIC or voters > > id cards > > > issue is biggest corruption scandal with use of IT and tendering > > process and > > > the EC has not even covered 50 percent of voters in nation. Shame > > on such > > > "autonomous" bodies who play games with common man to appease the > > political> parties.This can be verified easily by the serpentine > > ques for epic cards > > > even now, with tout charging 100 bucks for facilitation of epic > > cards in > > > metro cities. Bogus cards are another menace. > > > > > > Regards, > > > > > > Rajendra Uppinangadi, > > > rajen882uppinangadi at gmail.com > > > > > > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > > From: reader-list-request at sarai.net > > > Date: Monday, March 30, 2009 11:35 am > > > Subject: reader-list Digest, Vol 68, Issue 76 > > > To: reader-list at sarai.net > > > > > > > Send reader-list mailing list submissions to > > > > reader-list at sarai.net > > > > > > > > To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit > > > > https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > > > > or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to > > > > reader-list-request at sarai.net > > > > > > > > You can reach the person managing the list at > > > > reader-list-owner at sarai.net > > > > > > > > When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more > > specific> > than "Re: Contents of reader-list digest..." > > > > > > > > > > > > Today's Topics: > > > > > > > > 1. Re: reader-list Digest, Vol 68, Issue 62Freedom and > > right to > > > > express at what cost to society.? (rajenradhika at vsnl.net) > > > > 2. Are News Channels emerging as arbitrators of the I-card > > > > discourse? (Taha Mehmood) > > > > 3. "Free, Free Binayak Sen!" -- Report on U.S. Actions in > > > > Solidarity with the Raipur Satyagraha (Anivar Aravind) > > > > 4. Re: The decline of the 'encounter death' (bipin) > > > > > > > > > > > > ---------------------------------------------------------------- > > ---- > > > > -- > > > > > > > > Message: 1 > > > > Date: Sun, 29 Mar 2009 12:16:30 +0500 > > > > From: rajenradhika at vsnl.net > > > > Subject: Re: [Reader-list] reader-list Digest, Vol 68, Issue > > 62Freedom> > and right to express at what cost to society.? > > > > To: Rakesh Iyer > > > > Cc: sarai-list > > > > Message-ID: > > > > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii > > > > > > > > > > > > We the citizens of India gave ourselves the constitution of India > > > > which gave us rights to property, rights to life, rights to > > > > express individually and we live in the nation state as a social > > > > group of citizens and the state when it declared itself as a > > > > secular, it means in letter and spirit that the state does not > > > > uphold any faith, faith is strictly in the individuals prerogative > > > > to live life as per his personal belief, practice the faith he > > > > believes in, but th conflict comes in to play when the individual > > > > wants to impose his faith in his right to express on the the other > > > > individuals in the society. > > > > > > > > Right to property is upheld by the constitution in its articles > > but> > the governance by leaders elected by us, the citizens have > > > > systematically denied this right to property, right from > > > > Keshavanand Bharathi vs. Union of India case law judgement by > > > > amending the constitution and inserting such laws into > > schedules in > > > > the constitution which are beyond the perview of judicial system. > > > > > > > > Right to have faith as strictly personal domain is again violated > > > > by the Shah bano case law judgement by amending the laws to suit > > > > vote banks, faith is used as a tool to gather votes. > > > > We see today and in the last sixty two years of governance all > > > > the political parties either for a faith or against a faith, > > either> > for a community or against a community, either for few > > business> > houses or against a few more business houses. Is this > > the true > > > > facet of democratic governance.? > > > > > > > > True democratic rule in letter and spirit is when the elected > > > > who take oaths of office to govern, without fear or favour in just > > > > governance to all the citizens. But our leaders violate the oath > > > > taken the very day by imposing their whims and fancies on > > selective> > governance to citizens. Irrespective of the political > > parties the > > > > issues of good governance alays take the last priority, the > > > > community which voted them to power gains its pound of flesh and > > > > discrimination in governance starts immediately. > > > > > > > > As to the four pillars of democratic governance, let us examine > > > > the role of each of these in good governance or lack of it. > > > > Political leadership or legislative pillar as explained above is > > > > partisan and never does it rule with just and fair rule of law > > > > enshrined in constitution. Only this can explain the coterie > > > > culture of leaders as seen in every political parties, Sonia with > > > > her one faith folowers as her inner circle, Advani with core > > > > idealogists as his advisers, less said it is better. > > > > > > > > Now our babus, with weak and corrupt leadrs to pamper, the babus > > > > for a nexus to keep these leaders happy and in the meanwhile > > > > feather their nests. Thus deprived citizens are frustrated lot, so > > > > naxal movement and other form of demand for fair rule of law is > > > > evident in the nation, but naxals when they take law in to their > > > > own hands towards reform of the system, they are outlawed, > > > > naturally. So are the religious fanatics as they take violence > > as a > > > > method of correction of the system.Hence rama sena and such other > > > > outfits are illegal as the method is illegal . > > > > > > > > The next is judiciary which in normal rule of laws is most > > > > respected of all the pillars of democracy. But when the retired > > > > chief justice of the highest court admits that there are 10 > > percent> > corrupt in judiciary, and we see the case of a judge not > > being> > impeached for regional considerations by "national" party, > > a chief > > > > justice fudging his date of birth to be in seat for a few more > > > > months, a chief justice shielding his sons in his official > > > > residence to avail 600 crore loans in non-existent land assets, > > > > judges in PF scams encashing employees' provident funds, judge > > > > keeping the funds in his personal account being the receiver of > > the> > court, are all indications of decay in judicial process. The > > chief> > justice who can not act when his judicial officer goes to > > London to > > > > release 21 crore to uncle Q with begging the crown prosecutors' > > > > office, but instead gets the promotion, and scam money reaches the > > > > culprit with the knowledge of the law minister and the beneficiary > > > > pretends ignora > > > > nce of the loot, what more certification is needed of the falling > > > > standards of judicial system other than untold delays and > > > > subversion of the system.? The lawyers playing with the process, > > > > bribing the witness, duress to witness is also not uncommon. > > > > > > > > The last of the pillars, the media, has its own fair share of > > > > corrupt men and women in journalism. The poll surveys, > > reportage of > > > > the events have ,ade the citizens realise that all the news are > > not> > news but only views of such blacksheep in journalism. As to > > rewards> > and awards, what service these blacksheep of media > > anchors served > > > > the society is big question mark as they seem to be more involved > > > > in newly evolved moral games of life styles and reportage of > > > > sensation rather that relevance to the society with trp as only > > > > driving forces. > > > > > > > > Unless the society and citizens understand and inculcate what is > > > > right and correct way of life irrespective of faith, ( as all > > > > faiths are only way of life to live life ethically and morally > > > > correct.) and what is wrong in societal life, the democratic rule > > > > of laws and god governance will be a mirage. > > > > > > > > Regards, > > > > > > > > Rajendra Uppinangadi, > > > > rajen882uppinangad at gmail.com. > > > > > > > > PS: Author is not member to the list if the moderator/ > > > > administrator feels fit may invite the author to be its member of > > > > the list, any way freedom of expression for author is not a right > > > > of obsession to rule other thoughts but to exchange all thoughts > > > > and take the best for the life. > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > > > From: Rakesh Iyer > > > > Date: Wednesday, March 25, 2009 3:43 pm > > > > Subject: Re: [Reader-list] reader-list Digest, Vol 68,Issue > > > > 62Freedom and right to express at what cost to society.? > > > > To: bipin > > > > Cc: rajenradhika at vsnl.net, sarai-list > > > > > > > > > Dear all > > > > > > > > > > I can understand the point that freedom of expression is more > > > > > important than > > > > > peace, for after all any peace without any freedom of expression > > > > is > > > > > only the > > > > > lull before the storm waiting to happen. Plus of course, it > > > > hampers > > > > > one of > > > > > the basic human rights of citizens. > > > > > > > > > > However, the other question which is confusing my mind, as > > > > pointed > > > > > out in > > > > > the article, is regarding nation-states providing rights to > > > > > citizens. I > > > > > don't know much on this, so it would be good if we can > > discuss on > > > > > whetherit's nation-states which act as the agencies to provide > > > > > rights (and hence > > > > > without them people can't ask for rights), or is it that rights > > > > are > > > > > inherentirrespective of whether nation-states exist or not. > > > > > > > > > > Regards > > > > > > > > > > Rakesh > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ------------------------------ > > > > > > > > Message: 2 > > > > Date: Sun, 29 Mar 2009 18:37:39 +0100 > > > > From: Taha Mehmood <2tahamehmood at googlemail.com> > > > > Subject: [Reader-list] Are News Channels emerging as > > arbitrators of > > > > the I-card discourse? > > > > To: reader-list > > > > Message-ID: > > > > <65be9bf40903291037o454b506v55465ecbba234004 at mail.gmail.com> > > > > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 > > > > > > > > Dear all > > > > > > > > CNN IBN's Kinnari Patel reports about a village called Nargol in > > > > Gujaratwhere it is mandatory for residents to have an I-card. All > > > > the villagers > > > > have shared their fingerprints with the local police, she ends her > > > > report by > > > > suggesting that, 'Nargol's is probably one story Gujarat and the > > > > rest of the > > > > country should take lessons from.'. Interestingly in another > > > > version of the > > > > same story, CNN IBN's Urunuday Majumdar suggests that, this > > experiment> > should be 'emulated' by the rest of india. > > > > > > > > Regards > > > > > > > > Taha > > > > > > > > Please follow the links below to check out the stories- > > > > > > > > http://ibnlive.in.com/videos/70576/crime-control-you-need-an- > > icard- > > > > to-enter-this-village.html > > > > > > > > http://ibnlive.in.com/news/crime-control-you-need-an-icard-to- > > enter- > > > > this-village/70576-3.html > > > > > > > > > > > > ------------------------------ > > > > > > > > Message: 3 > > > > Date: Mon, 30 Mar 2009 07:50:28 +0530 > > > > From: Anivar Aravind > > > > Subject: [Reader-list] "Free, Free Binayak Sen!" -- Report on U.S. > > > > Actions in Solidarity with the Raipur Satyagraha > > > > To: Greenyouth , Reader List > > > > , " > > > fourth-estate-critique at googlegroups.com" > > > > > > > > Message-ID: > > > > <35f96d470903291920m9ee9220wf85f3eec8ddea4a9 at mail.gmail.com> > > > > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 > > > > > > > > ---------- Forwarded message -------- > > > > [Thanks to all those who participated in Friday's solidarity > > action> > with the > > > > Raipur Satyagraha. Below is a report on the actions held in three > > > > differentcities in the US. Please forward to other groups.] > > > > http://www.binayaksen.net/2009/03/free-free-binayak-sen-report- > > on- > > > > us-protests/ > > > > ** > > > > *"Free, Free Binayak Sen!" * > > > > *50 international groups organize support in the USA for the > > Raipur> > Satyagraha **in India* > > > > *Simultaneous protests held in 3 US cities* > > > > > > > > * San > > > > Francisco, CA, > > > > New York, NY and Washington DC, 28 March, 2009:* Verve and vigor > > > > marked the > > > > simultaneous protests held at the Indian embassy and consulates in > > > > Washington DC, New York City and San Francisco on March 27th, > > > > demanding the > > > > immediate release of Dr. Binayak Sen, an end to the repressive > > > > ChhattisgarhSpecial People's Security Act (CSPSA) and > > disbanding of > > > > the state-sponsored > > > > militia, Salwa Judum. Activists from Association for India's > > > > Development(AID), Friends of South Asia (FOSA), South Asia > > > > Solidarity Initiative > > > > (SASI), International League of People's Struggles, students and > > > > facultyfrom local universities participated in these protests, > > > > coinciding with the > > > > *Raipur Satyagraha* *, > > > > *theongoing mass civil disobedience action in the city of Raipur > > > > where Dr. Sen > > > > is incarcerated. Over 50 groups from the US, UK and Canada have > > > > written to > > > > the Chhattisgarh government and offered their support to the > > Raipur> > Satyagraha, and nearly 600 individual faxes have also > > been sent to the > > > > Chhattisgarh government from around the world. > > > > > > > > > > >The22-month > > > long, unjustifiable detention of Dr. Binayak > > > > Senhas become a > > > > rallying point for human rights and peace and justice groups in > > > > India and internationally. A pediatrician by training who > > chose to > > > > workwith the marginalized and malnourished people in remote > > > > villages of > > > > Chhattisgarh in central India, Dr. Binayak Sen has been recognized > > > > for his > > > > contributions to public health and human rights with the Paul > > Harrison> > award< > > > > > > http://home.cmcvellore.ac.in/NewsLine/PAUL%20HARRISON%20AWARD%202004%20-%20Citation.pdf > > > >by > > > > his alma mater, the Christian Medical College, Vellore, the R.R. > > > > Keithan gold > > > > medal< > > > > > > http://www.esocialsciences.com/News/NewsDetails.asp?Newsid=330&newstype=1>fromthe> > Indian Academy of Social Sciences, and the Jonathan > > > > Mann Award by the > > > > GlobalHealth Council in Washington DC. As Vice-president of > > > > People's Union for > > > > Civil Liberties (PUCL), Dr Binayak Sen was > > > > instrumental in bringing to light the excesses of the Chhattisgarh > > > > government's security apparatus, notably the Salwa Judum, a > > state- > > > > sponsoredmilitia which has wreaked havoc in the villages of south > > > > Bastar district. > > > > Activists and intellectuals, including Noam Chomsky, Arundhati > > Roy,> > GeorgeGalloway, Mahashweta Devi, over 135 faculty members > > and 22 > > > > nobel laureates > > > > from around the world have joined in urging the Indian government > > > > to free > > > > Dr. Binayak Sen and stop the harassment of human rights activists. > > > > > > > > > > > > Anu Mandavilli, > > > > with Friends > > > > of South Asia (FOSA), > > reminded> > theprotestors in San Francisco, that the one-year long > > trial of Dr. > > > > Sen, which > > > > included testimonies from over 50 government witnesses, has not > > > > produced a > > > > shred of evidence or a single witness who could corroborate the > > > > Government'sclaim that Dr. Sen engaged in seditious activities. > > > > "Yet, the courts have > > > > denied Dr. Sen's bail application three times. It is interesting > > > > to note > > > > that men from Shri Ram Sene, who beat up women in Mangalore > > pubs in > > > > front of > > > > cameras, were released on bail within 6 hours. Whereas Dr. Sen, > > > > with an > > > > impeccable 25-year record of public service, and no evidence > > > > against him, > > > > has been in jail for 22 months now." > > > > > > > > Angana > > > > Chatterji,associate professor, California Institute of Integral > > > > Studies, cited the > > > > harassment of other human rights defenders in Orissa and Kashmir, > > > > statingthat Dr. Sen's case represents an alarming trend where the > > > > Indian state is > > > > using draconian laws to silence those who oppose state repression. > > > > Indeed,Dr. Sen is only the most prominent among numerous human > > > > rights defenders and > > > > public intellectuals who languish in Indian jails because they > > > > dared to > > > > speak truth to power. > > > > > > > > > > > > < > > > http://docs.google.com/File?id=ddp3w2ff_43gwnvb6pk_b>InNew York, > > activists> gathered outside the Indian consulate to read Dr. Sen's > > > > New Year Letter from jail, recite poems from around the world in > > > > support of > > > > Dr. Sen, and sing songs of collective action. Jinee Lokaneeta of > > > > the South > > > > Asia Solidarity Initiative (SASI), and on the faculty at Drew > > > > University,drew attention to the fact that notwithstanding the > > > > floundering case against > > > > Dr. Sen, the government has recently produced an additional > > > > supplementarychargesheet against him. "By repeatedly denying Dr. > > > > Sen's bail application, > > > > and purposefully prolonging a meaningless trial, the state is > > > > ensuring that > > > > Dr. Sen stays in prison a long time, even if charges against him > > > > are never > > > > proved." > > > > > > > > Murli Natrajan, also of SASI and a faculty member at William > > Paterson> > University, added, "The laws used by the state to > > arrest Dr. Sen > > > > are truly > > > > draconian. These are the latest in the tradition of other harsh > > > > laws, such > > > > as MISA, TADA and POTA, each one of which had to be abandoned > > after> > beingdeclared unconstitutional by the highest judicial > > authorities,> > and after > > > > gross misuse by the state's security apparatus became apparent." > > > > > > > > Somu Kumar, > > > > with Association > > > > for India's Development (AID), and one > > > > of the > > > > organizers of the protest at the Indian embassy in Washington DC, > > > > highlighted that these protests are not limited to demanding > > the human > > > > rights of just one inidividual, Dr. Binayak Sen, but are in > > > > opposition to a > > > > system which criminalizes those who point out its shortcomings. > > > > "At this > > > > point, Dr. Sen is a symbol of many other ongoing struggles in > > > > India--especially those of the *adivasis*, the indigenous > > > > inhabitants of the > > > > mineral rich areas, who are resisting displacement by large mining > > > > companies, and whose rights Dr. Sen was championing. These > > > > protests are > > > > also to demand consideration for the human rights of the > > *adivasis *of > > > > Chhattisgarh, more than 100,000 of who are officially internally > > > > displacedpeople due to the actions of the state-sponsored Salwa > > > > Judum." > > > > < > > > http://docs.google.com/File?id=ddp3w2ff_45fpt6n8fs_b> < > > > http://docs.google.com/File?id=ddp3w2ff_45fpt6n8fs_b>< > > > http://docs.google.com/File?id=ddp3w2ff_44fgp6h9f8_b> > > > > A letter > > > > signed by > > > > more than 50 international peace and justice > > > > groups > > > Chapters/Maryland/campaign/Binayak_Sen_Org_Endorsement.pdf>,and a > > > > list of individuals who have faxed > > > > letters > > > support-of-the-raipur-satyagraha-for-release-of-dr-binayak-sen/>to > > > > the Chhattisgarh and central governments, were submitted to the > > Indian> > consular staff at each city who have guaranteed their > > delivery to > > > > the desks > > > > of the Chief Minister of Chhattisgarh, the President and Prime > > > > Minister of > > > > India, and the Chairperson of the National Human Rights > > Commission.> > Someactivists voiced their disappointment that the > > government of > > > > India had yet > > > > to acknowledge any of their previous submissions made over the > > > > course of the > > > > last year. "In spite of sending several hundred faxes, multiple > > > > letters,and individual emails to various officials, we have yet to > > > > hear back from a > > > > single government official that our letters have been received and > > > > read,leave alone considered," said Srividhya Venkataraman, with > > AID- > > > > Berkeley.She added, "The Indian government has made it a priority > > > > to reach out to > > > > NRIs. But if we, with multiple channels of communication available > > > > to us, > > > > have such difficulty in getting our voice heard, how must the > > Indian> > government respond to the concerns of an *adivasi > > *located in a remote > > > > village in Bastar!" > > > > > > > > Is anyone listening? > > > > ------------------------------ > > > > *For more information, see the following*: > > > > > > > > · Information on the Raipur Satyagraha for the Release of Dr. > > > > Binayak Sen > > > > is available here: http://raipursatyagraha.wordpress.com > > > > > > > > · More information on Dr. Binayak Sen and his case: > > > > > > > > o For a detailed analysis of the state’s case against Dr. Sen, > > read> > the3-part series in Indian Express by Vinay Sitapati: > > > > http://www.binayaksen.net/2009/01/indian-express-series-on- > > binayak- > > > > sen/ > > > > o A timeline of Binayak Sen’s case is available here: > > > > http://www.binayaksen.net/2009/01/timeline-of-events-in-the- > > strange- > > > > case-of-dr-binayak-sen/ > > > > > > > > o A compilation of news articles on Dr. Sen can be found at > > > > www.binayaksen.net , www.freebinayaksen.org and > > > > http://www.aidboston.org/FreeBinayakSen/media.htm > > > > > > > > · On Chhattisgarh Special Public Security Act, 2005: > > > > > > > > o The text of the law and its analysis by People’s Union for > > > > DemocraticRights can be found here: > > > > http://cpjc.wordpress.com/chhattisgarh-special-public-security- > > act/> > > > > > o A law and its victim, Ajoy Ashirwad Mahaprashasta, Frontline, > > Oct- > > > > Nov 2008 > > > > > > http://www.hinduonnet.com/fline/fl2522/stories/20081107252212400.htm> > > > > > o Caught between Naxals and police, Indian Express, June 11, 2008 > > > > > > > > > > http://in.news.yahoo.com/indianexpress/20080611/r_t_ie_nl_general/tnl-caught-between-naxals-and-police-aaaedd4_1.html > > > > > > > > · Fact-finding reports on Salwa Judum can be obtained from the > > > > website for > > > > the Campaign for Peace and Justice in Chhattisgarh, > > > > http://cpjc.wordpress.com/reports-by-fact-finding-teams-on- > > salwa- > > > > judum/ > > > > · Letter to the Chhattisgarh government by over 50 international > > > > peace and > > > > justice groups can be found here: > > > > http://docs.aidindia.org/Documents/AID- > > > > Chapters/Maryland/campaign/Binayak_Sen_Org_Endorsement.pdf > > > > > > > > > > > > ------------------------------ > > > > *Photo Credits*: Pei Wu, Sangay Mishra, Somu Kumar and Balaji > > > > Narasimhan*For more information*, contact: > > > > Shalini Gera, mail at friendsofsouthasia.org > > > > Murli Natrajan, mnatrajan at yahoo.com > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > -- > > > > Any responsible politician should be encouraging a home grown Free > > > > Softwareindustry because it creates the basis for future jobs. > > > > Learning Windows is > > > > like learning to eat every meal at McDonalds. > > > > > > > > > > > > ------------------------------ > > > > > > > > Message: 4 > > > > Date: Mon, 30 Mar 2009 11:34:27 +0530 > > > > From: bipin > > > > Subject: [Reader-list] Re: The decline of the 'encounter death' > > > > To: Taha Mehmood <2tahamehmood at googlemail.com> > > > > Cc: sarai-list > > > > Message-ID: <002101c9b0fd$62d23e90$0201a8c0 at limo> > > > > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 > > > > > > > > Dear Taha, > > > > > > > > Its question of common sense and no study is required. The man who > > > > accused remains in custody for long time and waiting for their > > > > hearing in court to come. During the time they are mentally > > down or > > > > may go under depression, which effects their health heavily. > > Police> > strictness to get truth adds fuel to their > > mental/physical illness > > > > position. If he proved innocent after pretty long time (say 8/10 > > > > years) but mentally he would be tired and his health effected > > > > heavily. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > No doubt, there might be cases of police atrocities, but > > looking to > > > > the cases comes with police and court, this figure is negligible. > > > > Also, the figure appear may be after studies, not necessarily > > true.> > Since they just count death not only at jail, but death > > occur at > > > > home, but case going on can also be counted. They are no > > > > clarification in their data. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > For each and every thing one should not see in the eye research or > > > > studies. Even thing I have noticed that after long research, data > > > > achieved can also be easily understood by common sense. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > thanks > > > > > > > > Bipin > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > > > From: Taha Mehmood > > > > To: bipin > > > > Sent: Monday, March 30, 2009 7:29 AM > > > > Subject: Re: [Reader-list] The decline of the 'encounter death' > > > > > > > > > > > > Dear Bipin > > > > > > > > Please tell me what has our judicial system got to do with > > > > custodial deaths? What is the co-relationship between delay in > > > > court cases and out dated laws and people dying under police > > > > custody? Are there any studies or any figures that you would wish > > > > to quote here or are we to believe your seemingly outrageous > > claims> > on the basis of your word only? Again a primary reading > > of your > > > > post might lead us to assume that ALL custodial deaths involve > > > > people who are 'criminals', is that the case? If so then could you > > > > please substantiate your argument. > > > > > > > > Regards > > > > > > > > Taha > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ------------------------------ > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > > > reader-list mailing list > > > > reader-list at sarai.net > > > > https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > > > > > > > > > > > > End of reader-list Digest, Vol 68, Issue 76 > > > > ******************************************* > > > > > > > _________________________________________ > > > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > > > Critiques & Collaborations > > > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > > > subscribe in the subject header. > > > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > > > > List archive: > > > -- Partha Dasgupta +919811047132 From rajkamalgoswami at gmail.com Mon Apr 6 10:08:49 2009 From: rajkamalgoswami at gmail.com (Rajkamal Goswami) Date: Mon, 6 Apr 2009 10:08:49 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Canopy Conference 2009, Bangalore In-Reply-To: <9d0d777b0904052130u5c2a232bs3db5cd73f809cfb6@mail.gmail.com> References: <9d0d777b0904052130u5c2a232bs3db5cd73f809cfb6@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <9d0d777b0904052138v6022d3d1t72ec55e82a1f2393@mail.gmail.com> Dear Friends, Go through the link and forward it to your friends who might be interested in it. Let me know if any of you are interested. This will be of interest not just to hardcore science guys but also to all those who, desires to know more about current environmental issues, love adventure (you can climb on top of a 30 meter canopy using single rope technique) or are interested in photography and paintings! http://www.canopy2009.org/html/invt.html Hope to see some of you there! Cheers -- Rajkamal Goswami PhD Student in Conservation Science Ashoka Trust for Research in Ecology and the Environment (ATREE) Royal Enclave, Sri Ramapura, Jakkur P.O. Bangalore 560 064 Karnataka, India. Phone: 080-23635555, extn: 145 Mobile: 09740362460 Fax: 91 80 2353 0070 Web: www.atree.org From c.anupam at gmail.com Mon Apr 6 11:46:50 2009 From: c.anupam at gmail.com (anupam chakravartty) Date: Mon, 6 Apr 2009 11:46:50 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Communists ask for forgiveness for acts committed in past In-Reply-To: <6b79f1a70904052302idae6f55p9d48178b984a5992@mail.gmail.com> References: <6b79f1a70904051109l646b64cbnf61e805708d58381@mail.gmail.com> <341380d00904052249u3f408d50p6f5ada0b1cf80e75@mail.gmail.com> <6b79f1a70904052302idae6f55p9d48178b984a5992@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <341380d00904052316r6adfca11ue98be47913d628f8@mail.gmail.com> who? atal behari vajpeyee..he is not even there. instead we have more, shall i say a "purified" version? of modi...mr varun gandhi. since u seem to be an insider in the BJP, why not tell us who is funding the Ram Temple? will it be publicly funded... On 4/6/09, Pawan Durani wrote: > > Anupam Ji , > > Probably you read only those news item which carry the red flag . Has > not the BJP also termed Gujarat incident as unfortunate. > > Pawan > > On Mon, Apr 6, 2009 at 11:19 AM, anupam chakravartty > wrote: > > at least they acknowledge their acts unlike maya kodnani and the saffron > > bandwagon who killed so many in gujarat. although its an interesting > piece > > of news. > > anupam > > On 4/5/09, Pawan Durani wrote: > >> > >> > >> > http://www.business-standard.com/india/news/cpimdefensive-seeks-forgiveness/354025/ > >> > >> Party cadres told to go to people and seek forgiveness for their acts > >> committed in the past. > >> > >> The CPI(M) in West Bengal has finally decided to do something which it > >> had not done in the last three decades: seek people’s forgiveness. > >> > >> Biman Bose, the state secretary of the ruling party, has repeatedly > >> asked his party cadres to go to people and seek forgiveness for their > >> acts committed in the past. Earlier, Bose had gone to public while > >> addressing an election meeting in Purulia, saying that “some of our > >> leaders have become arrogant”. Though he did not identify any of those > >> “arrogant” leaders, he later pursued the issue in the CPI(M) state > >> secretariat and Left Front meetings. He also admitted in public that > >> he had advised the party cadres to tender an apology to the people for > >> their past arrogance. > >> > >> Following the CPI(M), the Forward Bloc (FB), another Left Front > >> partner, has also taken the same approach. Yesterday, at a meeting of > >> the party’s trade union wing TUCC, FB state secretary Ashok Ghosh > >> urged the cadres not to show arrogance in their behaviour towards > >> people and also to seek forgiveness for their past acts, if any. > >> > >> In other words, this is an admission from the top leaders that three > >> decades of uninterrupted power has created a class of arrogant leaders > >> and cadres which in turn is pushing the people away from the Left. > >> > >> Gurudas Dasgupta, the CPI MP from Bengal who is now busy fighting > >> another electoral battle from Ghatal (after the delimitation process, > >> the old Panskura constituency has been renamed as Ghatal), feels this > >> is good tactical move. “It is a defensive game, where defence is the > >> best offence,” he says. > >> > >> But the Opposition detects a streak of nervousness in these campaign > >> tactics. Congress leader Manas Bhuian is convinced that the “CPI(M) > >> now is nervous. It could read the writing on the wall and that forced > >> it to change the tactic. But power has gone to their head. They are > >> giddy with success and for that they can’t change their attitude > >> overnight”. > >> > >> Sudip Banerjee, the TMC candidate from North Kolkata, feels: “The > >> CPI(M) is now really on the defensive. But no matter how much it tries > >> to extricate itself from this position, it won’t succeed. It is too > >> little and too late.” > >> > >> But a section of CPI(M) leaders, who are close to Biman Bose, believe > >> that this move might put a stop to the erosion of support in the rural > >> areas where in the recent past the Left suffered a series of electoral > >> setbacks. > >> > >> Last year, after having a major debacle in the panchayat elections, > >> the party tried to find out the causes of the setback. The review > >> brought out the seamy side of the party organisation at the grassroots > >> level, where leaders have amassed huge power in their hands and turned > >> into tyrants themselves. For the party, it was a revelation, but the > >> people knew it already through their day to day experiences. > >> Incidentally, along that line, a move to sideline some of those > >> leaders in the election was also mooted by the leadership but finally > >> discarded after considering it too hasty while finalising the > >> candidates’ list. > >> > >> According to insiders, by asking the party cadres to be more humble in > >> their approach to the people, Biman Bose also wants to send a signal > >> to those party satraps to fall in line. > >> > >> It is to be watched if the measures taken at the higher level can > >> discipline the party organisation, but truly it is a climb-down from > >> the position they earlier used to enjoy in the state. > >> _________________________________________ > >> reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > >> Critiques & Collaborations > >> To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > >> subscribe in the subject header. > >> To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > >> List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> > > > From pawan.durani at gmail.com Mon Apr 6 12:02:07 2009 From: pawan.durani at gmail.com (Pawan Durani) Date: Mon, 6 Apr 2009 12:02:07 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Communists ask for forgiveness for acts committed in past In-Reply-To: <341380d00904052316r6adfca11ue98be47913d628f8@mail.gmail.com> References: <6b79f1a70904051109l646b64cbnf61e805708d58381@mail.gmail.com> <341380d00904052249u3f408d50p6f5ada0b1cf80e75@mail.gmail.com> <6b79f1a70904052302idae6f55p9d48178b984a5992@mail.gmail.com> <341380d00904052316r6adfca11ue98be47913d628f8@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <6b79f1a70904052332o39ffbf81rd0b415f572b3b20b@mail.gmail.com> Yes , 100 crore Indian would fund it. On Mon, Apr 6, 2009 at 11:46 AM, anupam chakravartty wrote: > who? atal behari vajpeyee..he is not even there. instead we have more, shall > i say a "purified" version? of modi...mr varun gandhi. since u seem to be an > insider in the BJP, why not tell us who is funding the Ram Temple? will it > be publicly funded... > On 4/6/09, Pawan Durani wrote: >> >> Anupam Ji , >> >> Probably you read only those news item which carry the red flag . Has >> not the BJP also termed Gujarat incident as unfortunate. >> >> Pawan >> >> On Mon, Apr 6, 2009 at 11:19 AM, anupam chakravartty >> wrote: >> > at least they acknowledge their acts unlike maya kodnani and the saffron >> > bandwagon who killed so many in gujarat. although its an interesting >> piece >> > of news. >> > anupam >> > On 4/5/09, Pawan Durani wrote: >> >> >> >> >> >> >> http://www.business-standard.com/india/news/cpimdefensive-seeks-forgiveness/354025/ >> >> >> >> Party cadres told to go to people and seek forgiveness for their acts >> >> committed in the past. >> >> >> >> The CPI(M) in West Bengal has finally decided to do something which it >> >> had not done in the last three decades: seek people’s forgiveness. >> >> >> >> Biman Bose, the state secretary of the ruling party, has repeatedly >> >> asked his party cadres to go to people and seek forgiveness for their >> >> acts committed in the past. Earlier, Bose had gone to public while >> >> addressing an election meeting in Purulia, saying that “some of our >> >> leaders have become arrogant”. Though he did not identify any of those >> >> “arrogant” leaders, he later pursued the issue in the CPI(M) state >> >> secretariat and Left Front meetings. He also admitted in public that >> >> he had advised the party cadres to tender an apology to the people for >> >> their past arrogance. >> >> >> >> Following the CPI(M), the Forward Bloc (FB), another Left Front >> >> partner, has also taken the same approach. Yesterday, at a meeting of >> >> the party’s trade union wing TUCC, FB state secretary Ashok Ghosh >> >> urged the cadres not to show arrogance in their behaviour towards >> >> people and also to seek forgiveness for their past acts, if any. >> >> >> >> In other words, this is an admission from the top leaders that three >> >> decades of uninterrupted power has created a class of arrogant leaders >> >> and cadres which in turn is pushing the people away from the Left. >> >> >> >> Gurudas Dasgupta, the CPI MP from Bengal who is now busy fighting >> >> another electoral battle from Ghatal (after the delimitation process, >> >> the old Panskura constituency has been renamed as Ghatal), feels this >> >> is good tactical move. “It is a defensive game, where defence is the >> >> best offence,” he says. >> >> >> >> But the Opposition detects a streak of nervousness in these campaign >> >> tactics. Congress leader Manas Bhuian is convinced that the “CPI(M) >> >> now is nervous. It could read the writing on the wall and that forced >> >> it to change the tactic. But power has gone to their head. They are >> >> giddy with success and for that they can’t change their attitude >> >> overnight”. >> >> >> >> Sudip Banerjee, the TMC candidate from North Kolkata, feels: “The >> >> CPI(M) is now really on the defensive. But no matter how much it tries >> >> to extricate itself from this position, it won’t succeed. It is too >> >> little and too late.” >> >> >> >> But a section of CPI(M) leaders, who are close to Biman Bose, believe >> >> that this move might put a stop to the erosion of support in the rural >> >> areas where in the recent past the Left suffered a series of electoral >> >> setbacks. >> >> >> >> Last year, after having a major debacle in the panchayat elections, >> >> the party tried to find out the causes of the setback. The review >> >> brought out the seamy side of the party organisation at the grassroots >> >> level, where leaders have amassed huge power in their hands and turned >> >> into tyrants themselves. For the party, it was a revelation, but the >> >> people knew it already through their day to day experiences. >> >> Incidentally, along that line, a move to sideline some of those >> >> leaders in the election was also mooted by the leadership but finally >> >> discarded after considering it too hasty while finalising the >> >> candidates’ list. >> >> >> >> According to insiders, by asking the party cadres to be more humble in >> >> their approach to the people, Biman Bose also wants to send a signal >> >> to those party satraps to fall in line. >> >> >> >> It is to be watched if the measures taken at the higher level can >> >> discipline the party organisation, but truly it is a climb-down from >> >> the position they earlier used to enjoy in the state. >> >> _________________________________________ >> >> reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. >> >> Critiques & Collaborations >> >> To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with >> >> subscribe in the subject header. >> >> To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list >> >> List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> >> > >> > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with subscribe in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> From c.anupam at gmail.com Mon Apr 6 12:07:15 2009 From: c.anupam at gmail.com (anupam chakravartty) Date: Mon, 6 Apr 2009 12:07:15 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Communists ask for forgiveness for acts committed in past In-Reply-To: <6b79f1a70904052332o39ffbf81rd0b415f572b3b20b@mail.gmail.com> References: <6b79f1a70904051109l646b64cbnf61e805708d58381@mail.gmail.com> <341380d00904052249u3f408d50p6f5ada0b1cf80e75@mail.gmail.com> <6b79f1a70904052302idae6f55p9d48178b984a5992@mail.gmail.com> <341380d00904052316r6adfca11ue98be47913d628f8@mail.gmail.com> <6b79f1a70904052332o39ffbf81rd0b415f572b3b20b@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <341380d00904052337k215afa8ag6486b5a4a7938632@mail.gmail.com> precisely, this is what you think...now why would BJP call the killing of muslims an unfortunate incident is what im surprised about? BJP actually planned it...n thanks for telling me...if they have the guts demolish an archealogical site, terrorising innocent people is their second nature. On 4/6/09, Pawan Durani wrote: > > Yes , 100 crore Indian would fund it. > > On Mon, Apr 6, 2009 at 11:46 AM, anupam chakravartty > wrote: > > who? atal behari vajpeyee..he is not even there. instead we have more, > shall > > i say a "purified" version? of modi...mr varun gandhi. since u seem to be > an > > insider in the BJP, why not tell us who is funding the Ram Temple? will > it > > be publicly funded... > > On 4/6/09, Pawan Durani wrote: > >> > >> Anupam Ji , > >> > >> Probably you read only those news item which carry the red flag . Has > >> not the BJP also termed Gujarat incident as unfortunate. > >> > >> Pawan > >> > >> On Mon, Apr 6, 2009 at 11:19 AM, anupam chakravartty < > c.anupam at gmail.com> > >> wrote: > >> > at least they acknowledge their acts unlike maya kodnani and the > saffron > >> > bandwagon who killed so many in gujarat. although its an interesting > >> piece > >> > of news. > >> > anupam > >> > On 4/5/09, Pawan Durani wrote: > >> >> > >> >> > >> >> > >> > http://www.business-standard.com/india/news/cpimdefensive-seeks-forgiveness/354025/ > >> >> > >> >> Party cadres told to go to people and seek forgiveness for their acts > >> >> committed in the past. > >> >> > >> >> The CPI(M) in West Bengal has finally decided to do something which > it > >> >> had not done in the last three decades: seek people’s forgiveness. > >> >> > >> >> Biman Bose, the state secretary of the ruling party, has repeatedly > >> >> asked his party cadres to go to people and seek forgiveness for their > >> >> acts committed in the past. Earlier, Bose had gone to public while > >> >> addressing an election meeting in Purulia, saying that “some of our > >> >> leaders have become arrogant”. Though he did not identify any of > those > >> >> “arrogant” leaders, he later pursued the issue in the CPI(M) state > >> >> secretariat and Left Front meetings. He also admitted in public that > >> >> he had advised the party cadres to tender an apology to the people > for > >> >> their past arrogance. > >> >> > >> >> Following the CPI(M), the Forward Bloc (FB), another Left Front > >> >> partner, has also taken the same approach. Yesterday, at a meeting of > >> >> the party’s trade union wing TUCC, FB state secretary Ashok Ghosh > >> >> urged the cadres not to show arrogance in their behaviour towards > >> >> people and also to seek forgiveness for their past acts, if any. > >> >> > >> >> In other words, this is an admission from the top leaders that three > >> >> decades of uninterrupted power has created a class of arrogant > leaders > >> >> and cadres which in turn is pushing the people away from the Left. > >> >> > >> >> Gurudas Dasgupta, the CPI MP from Bengal who is now busy fighting > >> >> another electoral battle from Ghatal (after the delimitation process, > >> >> the old Panskura constituency has been renamed as Ghatal), feels this > >> >> is good tactical move. “It is a defensive game, where defence is the > >> >> best offence,” he says. > >> >> > >> >> But the Opposition detects a streak of nervousness in these campaign > >> >> tactics. Congress leader Manas Bhuian is convinced that the “CPI(M) > >> >> now is nervous. It could read the writing on the wall and that forced > >> >> it to change the tactic. But power has gone to their head. They are > >> >> giddy with success and for that they can’t change their attitude > >> >> overnight”. > >> >> > >> >> Sudip Banerjee, the TMC candidate from North Kolkata, feels: “The > >> >> CPI(M) is now really on the defensive. But no matter how much it > tries > >> >> to extricate itself from this position, it won’t succeed. It is too > >> >> little and too late.” > >> >> > >> >> But a section of CPI(M) leaders, who are close to Biman Bose, believe > >> >> that this move might put a stop to the erosion of support in the > rural > >> >> areas where in the recent past the Left suffered a series of > electoral > >> >> setbacks. > >> >> > >> >> Last year, after having a major debacle in the panchayat elections, > >> >> the party tried to find out the causes of the setback. The review > >> >> brought out the seamy side of the party organisation at the > grassroots > >> >> level, where leaders have amassed huge power in their hands and > turned > >> >> into tyrants themselves. For the party, it was a revelation, but the > >> >> people knew it already through their day to day experiences. > >> >> Incidentally, along that line, a move to sideline some of those > >> >> leaders in the election was also mooted by the leadership but finally > >> >> discarded after considering it too hasty while finalising the > >> >> candidates’ list. > >> >> > >> >> According to insiders, by asking the party cadres to be more humble > in > >> >> their approach to the people, Biman Bose also wants to send a signal > >> >> to those party satraps to fall in line. > >> >> > >> >> It is to be watched if the measures taken at the higher level can > >> >> discipline the party organisation, but truly it is a climb-down from > >> >> the position they earlier used to enjoy in the state. > >> >> _________________________________________ > >> >> reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > >> >> Critiques & Collaborations > >> >> To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > >> >> subscribe in the subject header. > >> >> To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > >> >> List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> > >> > > >> > > _________________________________________ > > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > > Critiques & Collaborations > > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > subscribe in the subject header. > > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> > From pawan.durani at gmail.com Mon Apr 6 12:14:07 2009 From: pawan.durani at gmail.com (Pawan Durani) Date: Mon, 6 Apr 2009 12:14:07 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Communists ask for forgiveness for acts committed in past In-Reply-To: <341380d00904052337k215afa8ag6486b5a4a7938632@mail.gmail.com> References: <6b79f1a70904051109l646b64cbnf61e805708d58381@mail.gmail.com> <341380d00904052249u3f408d50p6f5ada0b1cf80e75@mail.gmail.com> <6b79f1a70904052302idae6f55p9d48178b984a5992@mail.gmail.com> <341380d00904052316r6adfca11ue98be47913d628f8@mail.gmail.com> <6b79f1a70904052332o39ffbf81rd0b415f572b3b20b@mail.gmail.com> <341380d00904052337k215afa8ag6486b5a4a7938632@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <6b79f1a70904052344m25b6fd3frab76096f5de059af@mail.gmail.com> BJP said that it was unfortunate as it was morally right to do so as BJP was the ruling party in Gujarat. I never considered the structure as a Mosque. A place where muslims do not pray 5 times does not fit into a mosque category . For all puropse it was a temple and sometimes it is good to build a grand place to remove a blot. God Bless ! pawan On Mon, Apr 6, 2009 at 12:07 PM, anupam chakravartty wrote: > precisely, this is what you think...now why would BJP call the killing of > muslims an unfortunate incident is what im surprised about? BJP actually > planned it...n thanks for telling me...if they have the guts demolish an > archealogical site, terrorising innocent people is their second nature. > > On 4/6/09, Pawan Durani wrote: >> >> Yes , 100 crore Indian would fund it. >> >> On Mon, Apr 6, 2009 at 11:46 AM, anupam chakravartty >> wrote: >> > who? atal behari vajpeyee..he is not even there. instead we have more, >> shall >> > i say a "purified" version? of modi...mr varun gandhi. since u seem to be >> an >> > insider in the BJP, why not tell us who is funding the Ram Temple? will >> it >> > be publicly funded... >> > On 4/6/09, Pawan Durani wrote: >> >> >> >> Anupam Ji , >> >> >> >> Probably you read only those news item which carry the red flag . Has >> >> not the BJP also termed Gujarat incident as unfortunate. >> >> >> >> Pawan >> >> >> >> On Mon, Apr 6, 2009 at 11:19 AM, anupam chakravartty < >> c.anupam at gmail.com> >> >> wrote: >> >> > at least they acknowledge their acts unlike maya kodnani and the >> saffron >> >> > bandwagon who killed so many in gujarat. although its an interesting >> >> piece >> >> > of news. >> >> > anupam >> >> > On 4/5/09, Pawan Durani wrote: >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> http://www.business-standard.com/india/news/cpimdefensive-seeks-forgiveness/354025/ >> >> >> >> >> >> Party cadres told to go to people and seek forgiveness for their acts >> >> >> committed in the past. >> >> >> >> >> >> The CPI(M) in West Bengal has finally decided to do something which >> it >> >> >> had not done in the last three decades: seek people’s forgiveness. >> >> >> >> >> >> Biman Bose, the state secretary of the ruling party, has repeatedly >> >> >> asked his party cadres to go to people and seek forgiveness for their >> >> >> acts committed in the past. Earlier, Bose had gone to public while >> >> >> addressing an election meeting in Purulia, saying that “some of our >> >> >> leaders have become arrogant”. Though he did not identify any of >> those >> >> >> “arrogant” leaders, he later pursued the issue in the CPI(M) state >> >> >> secretariat and Left Front meetings. He also admitted in public that >> >> >> he had advised the party cadres to tender an apology to the people >> for >> >> >> their past arrogance. >> >> >> >> >> >> Following the CPI(M), the Forward Bloc (FB), another Left Front >> >> >> partner, has also taken the same approach. Yesterday, at a meeting of >> >> >> the party’s trade union wing TUCC, FB state secretary Ashok Ghosh >> >> >> urged the cadres not to show arrogance in their behaviour towards >> >> >> people and also to seek forgiveness for their past acts, if any. >> >> >> >> >> >> In other words, this is an admission from the top leaders that three >> >> >> decades of uninterrupted power has created a class of arrogant >> leaders >> >> >> and cadres which in turn is pushing the people away from the Left. >> >> >> >> >> >> Gurudas Dasgupta, the CPI MP from Bengal who is now busy fighting >> >> >> another electoral battle from Ghatal (after the delimitation process, >> >> >> the old Panskura constituency has been renamed as Ghatal), feels this >> >> >> is good tactical move. “It is a defensive game, where defence is the >> >> >> best offence,” he says. >> >> >> >> >> >> But the Opposition detects a streak of nervousness in these campaign >> >> >> tactics. Congress leader Manas Bhuian is convinced that the “CPI(M) >> >> >> now is nervous. It could read the writing on the wall and that forced >> >> >> it to change the tactic. But power has gone to their head. They are >> >> >> giddy with success and for that they can’t change their attitude >> >> >> overnight”. >> >> >> >> >> >> Sudip Banerjee, the TMC candidate from North Kolkata, feels: “The >> >> >> CPI(M) is now really on the defensive. But no matter how much it >> tries >> >> >> to extricate itself from this position, it won’t succeed. It is too >> >> >> little and too late.” >> >> >> >> >> >> But a section of CPI(M) leaders, who are close to Biman Bose, believe >> >> >> that this move might put a stop to the erosion of support in the >> rural >> >> >> areas where in the recent past the Left suffered a series of >> electoral >> >> >> setbacks. >> >> >> >> >> >> Last year, after having a major debacle in the panchayat elections, >> >> >> the party tried to find out the causes of the setback. The review >> >> >> brought out the seamy side of the party organisation at the >> grassroots >> >> >> level, where leaders have amassed huge power in their hands and >> turned >> >> >> into tyrants themselves. For the party, it was a revelation, but the >> >> >> people knew it already through their day to day experiences. >> >> >> Incidentally, along that line, a move to sideline some of those >> >> >> leaders in the election was also mooted by the leadership but finally >> >> >> discarded after considering it too hasty while finalising the >> >> >> candidates’ list. >> >> >> >> >> >> According to insiders, by asking the party cadres to be more humble >> in >> >> >> their approach to the people, Biman Bose also wants to send a signal >> >> >> to those party satraps to fall in line. >> >> >> >> >> >> It is to be watched if the measures taken at the higher level can >> >> >> discipline the party organisation, but truly it is a climb-down from >> >> >> the position they earlier used to enjoy in the state. >> >> >> _________________________________________ >> >> >> reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. >> >> >> Critiques & Collaborations >> >> >> To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with >> >> >> subscribe in the subject header. >> >> >> To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list >> >> >> List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> >> >> > >> >> >> > _________________________________________ >> > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. >> > Critiques & Collaborations >> > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with >> subscribe in the subject header. >> > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list >> > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> >> > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with subscribe in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> From pawan.durani at gmail.com Mon Apr 6 12:19:08 2009 From: pawan.durani at gmail.com (Pawan Durani) Date: Mon, 6 Apr 2009 12:19:08 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Communists ask for forgiveness for acts committed in past In-Reply-To: <341380d00904052337k215afa8ag6486b5a4a7938632@mail.gmail.com> References: <6b79f1a70904051109l646b64cbnf61e805708d58381@mail.gmail.com> <341380d00904052249u3f408d50p6f5ada0b1cf80e75@mail.gmail.com> <6b79f1a70904052302idae6f55p9d48178b984a5992@mail.gmail.com> <341380d00904052316r6adfca11ue98be47913d628f8@mail.gmail.com> <6b79f1a70904052332o39ffbf81rd0b415f572b3b20b@mail.gmail.com> <341380d00904052337k215afa8ag6486b5a4a7938632@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <6b79f1a70904052349h27655c12n672421bcd85e5546@mail.gmail.com> Dear Anupam ji , You are as unethical as any red flag bearer is. You preferred to have an offline conversation with me and suddenly you send the whole exchange to a discussion forum. Is this the ethics being taught by your senior comrades ? I pity you for not having learnt basic etiquette. Your motives and conduct stink..... Pawan On Mon, Apr 6, 2009 at 12:07 PM, anupam chakravartty wrote: > precisely, this is what you think...now why would BJP call the killing of > muslims an unfortunate incident is what im surprised about? BJP actually > planned it...n thanks for telling me...if they have the guts demolish an > archealogical site, terrorising innocent people is their second nature. > > On 4/6/09, Pawan Durani wrote: >> >> Yes , 100 crore Indian would fund it. >> >> On Mon, Apr 6, 2009 at 11:46 AM, anupam chakravartty >> wrote: >> > who? atal behari vajpeyee..he is not even there. instead we have more, >> shall >> > i say a "purified" version? of modi...mr varun gandhi. since u seem to be >> an >> > insider in the BJP, why not tell us who is funding the Ram Temple? will >> it >> > be publicly funded... >> > On 4/6/09, Pawan Durani wrote: >> >> >> >> Anupam Ji , >> >> >> >> Probably you read only those news item which carry the red flag . Has >> >> not the BJP also termed Gujarat incident as unfortunate. >> >> >> >> Pawan >> >> >> >> On Mon, Apr 6, 2009 at 11:19 AM, anupam chakravartty < >> c.anupam at gmail.com> >> >> wrote: >> >> > at least they acknowledge their acts unlike maya kodnani and the >> saffron >> >> > bandwagon who killed so many in gujarat. although its an interesting >> >> piece >> >> > of news. >> >> > anupam >> >> > On 4/5/09, Pawan Durani wrote: >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> http://www.business-standard.com/india/news/cpimdefensive-seeks-forgiveness/354025/ >> >> >> >> >> >> Party cadres told to go to people and seek forgiveness for their acts >> >> >> committed in the past. >> >> >> >> >> >> The CPI(M) in West Bengal has finally decided to do something which >> it >> >> >> had not done in the last three decades: seek people’s forgiveness. >> >> >> >> >> >> Biman Bose, the state secretary of the ruling party, has repeatedly >> >> >> asked his party cadres to go to people and seek forgiveness for their >> >> >> acts committed in the past. Earlier, Bose had gone to public while >> >> >> addressing an election meeting in Purulia, saying that “some of our >> >> >> leaders have become arrogant”. Though he did not identify any of >> those >> >> >> “arrogant” leaders, he later pursued the issue in the CPI(M) state >> >> >> secretariat and Left Front meetings. He also admitted in public that >> >> >> he had advised the party cadres to tender an apology to the people >> for >> >> >> their past arrogance. >> >> >> >> >> >> Following the CPI(M), the Forward Bloc (FB), another Left Front >> >> >> partner, has also taken the same approach. Yesterday, at a meeting of >> >> >> the party’s trade union wing TUCC, FB state secretary Ashok Ghosh >> >> >> urged the cadres not to show arrogance in their behaviour towards >> >> >> people and also to seek forgiveness for their past acts, if any. >> >> >> >> >> >> In other words, this is an admission from the top leaders that three >> >> >> decades of uninterrupted power has created a class of arrogant >> leaders >> >> >> and cadres which in turn is pushing the people away from the Left. >> >> >> >> >> >> Gurudas Dasgupta, the CPI MP from Bengal who is now busy fighting >> >> >> another electoral battle from Ghatal (after the delimitation process, >> >> >> the old Panskura constituency has been renamed as Ghatal), feels this >> >> >> is good tactical move. “It is a defensive game, where defence is the >> >> >> best offence,” he says. >> >> >> >> >> >> But the Opposition detects a streak of nervousness in these campaign >> >> >> tactics. Congress leader Manas Bhuian is convinced that the “CPI(M) >> >> >> now is nervous. It could read the writing on the wall and that forced >> >> >> it to change the tactic. But power has gone to their head. They are >> >> >> giddy with success and for that they can’t change their attitude >> >> >> overnight”. >> >> >> >> >> >> Sudip Banerjee, the TMC candidate from North Kolkata, feels: “The >> >> >> CPI(M) is now really on the defensive. But no matter how much it >> tries >> >> >> to extricate itself from this position, it won’t succeed. It is too >> >> >> little and too late.” >> >> >> >> >> >> But a section of CPI(M) leaders, who are close to Biman Bose, believe >> >> >> that this move might put a stop to the erosion of support in the >> rural >> >> >> areas where in the recent past the Left suffered a series of >> electoral >> >> >> setbacks. >> >> >> >> >> >> Last year, after having a major debacle in the panchayat elections, >> >> >> the party tried to find out the causes of the setback. The review >> >> >> brought out the seamy side of the party organisation at the >> grassroots >> >> >> level, where leaders have amassed huge power in their hands and >> turned >> >> >> into tyrants themselves. For the party, it was a revelation, but the >> >> >> people knew it already through their day to day experiences. >> >> >> Incidentally, along that line, a move to sideline some of those >> >> >> leaders in the election was also mooted by the leadership but finally >> >> >> discarded after considering it too hasty while finalising the >> >> >> candidates’ list. >> >> >> >> >> >> According to insiders, by asking the party cadres to be more humble >> in >> >> >> their approach to the people, Biman Bose also wants to send a signal >> >> >> to those party satraps to fall in line. >> >> >> >> >> >> It is to be watched if the measures taken at the higher level can >> >> >> discipline the party organisation, but truly it is a climb-down from >> >> >> the position they earlier used to enjoy in the state. >> >> >> _________________________________________ >> >> >> reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. >> >> >> Critiques & Collaborations >> >> >> To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with >> >> >> subscribe in the subject header. >> >> >> To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list >> >> >> List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> >> >> > >> >> >> > _________________________________________ >> > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. >> > Critiques & Collaborations >> > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with >> subscribe in the subject header. >> > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list >> > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> >> > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with subscribe in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> From c.anupam at gmail.com Mon Apr 6 12:45:56 2009 From: c.anupam at gmail.com (anupam chakravartty) Date: Mon, 6 Apr 2009 12:45:56 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Communists ask for forgiveness for acts committed in past In-Reply-To: <6b79f1a70904052349h27655c12n672421bcd85e5546@mail.gmail.com> References: <6b79f1a70904051109l646b64cbnf61e805708d58381@mail.gmail.com> <341380d00904052249u3f408d50p6f5ada0b1cf80e75@mail.gmail.com> <6b79f1a70904052302idae6f55p9d48178b984a5992@mail.gmail.com> <341380d00904052316r6adfca11ue98be47913d628f8@mail.gmail.com> <6b79f1a70904052332o39ffbf81rd0b415f572b3b20b@mail.gmail.com> <341380d00904052337k215afa8ag6486b5a4a7938632@mail.gmail.com> <6b79f1a70904052349h27655c12n672421bcd85e5546@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <341380d00904060015y68f55e16taae597784e2b30a2@mail.gmail.com> dear pawan, gmail actually offers a direct reply...so unknowingly i might have sent you the first mail. from the beginning itself i intended to make this conversation public...so the question of ethics doesnt arise here..if it has hurt you, i would blame it on the gmail. being critical of BJP's policy doesnt make me a red flag. looks like you are really immature in political debates. why dont you give and do some party work? its gainful employment..you can make loads of money. On 4/6/09, Pawan Durani wrote: > Dear Anupam ji , > > You are as unethical as any red flag bearer is. > > You preferred to have an offline conversation with me and suddenly you > send the whole exchange to a discussion forum. > > Is this the ethics being taught by your senior comrades ? I pity you > for not having learnt basic etiquette. > > Your motives and conduct stink..... > > Pawan > > On Mon, Apr 6, 2009 at 12:07 PM, anupam chakravartty > wrote: > > precisely, this is what you think...now why would BJP call the killing of > > muslims an unfortunate incident is what im surprised about? BJP actually > > planned it...n thanks for telling me...if they have the guts demolish an > > archealogical site, terrorising innocent people is their second nature. > > > > On 4/6/09, Pawan Durani wrote: > >> > >> Yes , 100 crore Indian would fund it. > >> > >> On Mon, Apr 6, 2009 at 11:46 AM, anupam chakravartty < > c.anupam at gmail.com> > >> wrote: > >> > who? atal behari vajpeyee..he is not even there. instead we have more, > >> shall > >> > i say a "purified" version? of modi...mr varun gandhi. since u seem to > be > >> an > >> > insider in the BJP, why not tell us who is funding the Ram Temple? > will > >> it > >> > be publicly funded... > >> > On 4/6/09, Pawan Durani wrote: > >> >> > >> >> Anupam Ji , > >> >> > >> >> Probably you read only those news item which carry the red flag . Has > >> >> not the BJP also termed Gujarat incident as unfortunate. > >> >> > >> >> Pawan > >> >> > >> >> On Mon, Apr 6, 2009 at 11:19 AM, anupam chakravartty < > >> c.anupam at gmail.com> > >> >> wrote: > >> >> > at least they acknowledge their acts unlike maya kodnani and the > >> saffron > >> >> > bandwagon who killed so many in gujarat. although its an > interesting > >> >> piece > >> >> > of news. > >> >> > anupam > >> >> > On 4/5/09, Pawan Durani wrote: > >> >> >> > >> >> >> > >> >> >> > >> >> > >> > http://www.business-standard.com/india/news/cpimdefensive-seeks-forgiveness/354025/ > >> >> >> > >> >> >> Party cadres told to go to people and seek forgiveness for their > acts > >> >> >> committed in the past. > >> >> >> > >> >> >> The CPI(M) in West Bengal has finally decided to do something > which > >> it > >> >> >> had not done in the last three decades: seek people’s forgiveness. > >> >> >> > >> >> >> Biman Bose, the state secretary of the ruling party, has > repeatedly > >> >> >> asked his party cadres to go to people and seek forgiveness for > their > >> >> >> acts committed in the past. Earlier, Bose had gone to public while > >> >> >> addressing an election meeting in Purulia, saying that “some of > our > >> >> >> leaders have become arrogant”. Though he did not identify any of > >> those > >> >> >> “arrogant” leaders, he later pursued the issue in the CPI(M) state > >> >> >> secretariat and Left Front meetings. He also admitted in public > that > >> >> >> he had advised the party cadres to tender an apology to the people > >> for > >> >> >> their past arrogance. > >> >> >> > >> >> >> Following the CPI(M), the Forward Bloc (FB), another Left Front > >> >> >> partner, has also taken the same approach. Yesterday, at a meeting > of > >> >> >> the party’s trade union wing TUCC, FB state secretary Ashok Ghosh > >> >> >> urged the cadres not to show arrogance in their behaviour towards > >> >> >> people and also to seek forgiveness for their past acts, if any. > >> >> >> > >> >> >> In other words, this is an admission from the top leaders that > three > >> >> >> decades of uninterrupted power has created a class of arrogant > >> leaders > >> >> >> and cadres which in turn is pushing the people away from the Left. > >> >> >> > >> >> >> Gurudas Dasgupta, the CPI MP from Bengal who is now busy fighting > >> >> >> another electoral battle from Ghatal (after the delimitation > process, > >> >> >> the old Panskura constituency has been renamed as Ghatal), feels > this > >> >> >> is good tactical move. “It is a defensive game, where defence is > the > >> >> >> best offence,” he says. > >> >> >> > >> >> >> But the Opposition detects a streak of nervousness in these > campaign > >> >> >> tactics. Congress leader Manas Bhuian is convinced that the > “CPI(M) > >> >> >> now is nervous. It could read the writing on the wall and that > forced > >> >> >> it to change the tactic. But power has gone to their head. They > are > >> >> >> giddy with success and for that they can’t change their attitude > >> >> >> overnight”. > >> >> >> > >> >> >> Sudip Banerjee, the TMC candidate from North Kolkata, feels: “The > >> >> >> CPI(M) is now really on the defensive. But no matter how much it > >> tries > >> >> >> to extricate itself from this position, it won’t succeed. It is > too > >> >> >> little and too late.” > >> >> >> > >> >> >> But a section of CPI(M) leaders, who are close to Biman Bose, > believe > >> >> >> that this move might put a stop to the erosion of support in the > >> rural > >> >> >> areas where in the recent past the Left suffered a series of > >> electoral > >> >> >> setbacks. > >> >> >> > >> >> >> Last year, after having a major debacle in the panchayat > elections, > >> >> >> the party tried to find out the causes of the setback. The review > >> >> >> brought out the seamy side of the party organisation at the > >> grassroots > >> >> >> level, where leaders have amassed huge power in their hands and > >> turned > >> >> >> into tyrants themselves. For the party, it was a revelation, but > the > >> >> >> people knew it already through their day to day experiences. > >> >> >> Incidentally, along that line, a move to sideline some of those > >> >> >> leaders in the election was also mooted by the leadership but > finally > >> >> >> discarded after considering it too hasty while finalising the > >> >> >> candidates’ list. > >> >> >> > >> >> >> According to insiders, by asking the party cadres to be more > humble > >> in > >> >> >> their approach to the people, Biman Bose also wants to send a > signal > >> >> >> to those party satraps to fall in line. > >> >> >> > >> >> >> It is to be watched if the measures taken at the higher level can > >> >> >> discipline the party organisation, but truly it is a climb-down > from > >> >> >> the position they earlier used to enjoy in the state. > >> >> >> _________________________________________ > >> >> >> reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > >> >> >> Critiques & Collaborations > >> >> >> To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > >> >> >> subscribe in the subject header. > >> >> >> To unsubscribe: > https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > >> >> >> List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> > >> >> > > >> >> > >> > _________________________________________ > >> > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > >> > Critiques & Collaborations > >> > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > >> subscribe in the subject header. > >> > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > >> > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> > >> > > _________________________________________ > > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > > Critiques & Collaborations > > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > subscribe in the subject header. > > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> > From asitredsalute at gmail.com Mon Apr 6 12:54:15 2009 From: asitredsalute at gmail.com (Asit asitreds) Date: Mon, 6 Apr 2009 12:54:15 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Complete list of signatures in support of Mallika Sarabhai Message-ID: *APPEAL* *RALLY BEHIND MALLIKA SARABHAI IN HER FIGHT AGAINST COMMUNAL FASCISM* As you must be aware, Mallika Sarabhai is contesting from the Gandhinagar loksabha seat against the BJP Prime Ministerial candidate, L.K. Advani. Ms. Sarabhai's electoral fight against Mr. Advani assumes utmost political significance because it has become a symbol of struggle between the forces of secular democracy and communal fascism. This is a struggle for pluralist democracy where the religious minorities are respected as equal citizens against the fascist Hindutva ideology of creating a demonic "other" and carrying out pogroms against religious minorities and treating them as second class citizens by undermining a modern liberal democratic society. This goes against the very ethos of our Constitution. One recoils in horror at the memory of the gory murder, rape and mayhem - the ghastly state sponsored communal carnage in Gujarat in the year 2002. Mr. L.K. Advani as the Home Minister of India and Narendra Modi as the Chief Minister of Gujarat presided over this utterly shameful chapter of post-Independent Indian history. It is needless to recall Mr. Advani's role as the prime mover of communalizing the Indian society and imposing fascist Hindutva ideology on toiling workers, peasants and peace loving citizens of our country, thus tearing apart the social fabric of our society, which continues to bleed till today. L.K. Advani's infamous Rath Yatra in 1989 spread the communal poison across the length and breadth of the country, polarized the society on religious lines, inflicting a severe blow to the very basis of peaceful, dignified coexistence of various religious groups in a pluralist liberal democratic society undermining the secular democratic foundations of our constitution, which was achieved after numerous sacrifices in our long drawn freedom struggle. The Rath Yatra of Advani and the resultant communal frenzy culminated in the shameful demolition of Babri Masjid which traumatized the Muslim community and also secular citizens of India. Mr. Advani was present on the spot along with other front-ranking B.J.P. leaders encouraging the lumpen Kar Sevaks when they forcibly brought down the Babri Masjid. The recent incidents like the horrifying killing of Christians in Kandhmal, the attack on women in Mangalore and other places are frightening indicators of Hindutva ideology led by Mr. Advani. It bears ominous signs of the fascist take over of India if we don’t make the necessary effective intervention to stem this tide of regressive medieval barbarism. Mr. Advani is the symbol of both communal fascism and patriarchy, which spells doom for religious minorities and women in this country. Therefore it is imperative all of us join hands to defeat the nefarious designs of the Sangh Parivar. We appeal to all secular, democratic organizations, women, students and youth to actively campaign for Ms. Mallika Sarabhai in her principled electoral battle against Mr. L.K. Advani in Gandhinagar. 1. Kuldip Nayar 2. Sandip Pandey (NAPM and peoples political front) 3. Com Suneet Chopra (General Secretary All India Agricultural worker union and Member Central Committee, CPIM) 4. Meher Engineer (Social activist and Ex Director Bose institute, Calcutta) 5. Colin Gonsalves (Human rights law network, New Delhi) 6. Jagadish (New Socialist Alternative, Bangalore) 7. Mazhar Hussain (COVA Hyderabad) 8. Saktiman Ghosh (National Hawkers Federation, Calcutta) 9. K.P. Sasi (Film Maker visual search, Bangalore) 10. Dilip Kumar Mahto (Socialist Hawkers Union) 11. S.M. Pasha (All India Forum of Muslim journalists) 12. Anuradha Chenoy (Professor, school of International studies, J NU) 13. Subodh Malakar (President JNU Teachers Association) 14. Anand Kumar (Professor, school of social science, JNU) 15. Chaman Lal (Professor centre of Indian Languages, school of languages, JNU) 16. Manider Thakur (Associate Professor, centre for political studies school of social sciences JNU) 17. Amir Ali (Associate Professor centre fro political studies, JNU) 18. Rajvir Pawar (activist socialist front New Delhi) 19. Harsh Mander (Aman biradari New Delhi) 20. Subhas Lomte (Convenor National Campaign committee for Rural workers) 21. Hannah Jana Priya (activist Kashi Pur solidarity group New Delhi) 22. Thomas Kochary (National fish workers forum) 23. Vijay Pratap (Convenor Socialist front) 24. Babulal Sharma (Global Gandhi forum) 25. Wilfred - (Insaf. New Delhi) 26. Kiran Shaheen - (Journalist and Political Activist - New Delhi) 27. Faisal Khan - (NAPM - New Delhi) 28. Prakash Kumar Ray (Research scholar, film studies, school of arts and Aesthetics 29. New Delhi JNU) 30. Usman (Research scholar, centre for Indian languages school of languages JNU) 31. Rishika Meherishi (Research scholar, school of Art and Aesthetics JNU) 32. P.K. Sundaram (Research scholar school of International studies JNU) 33. Laxman Singh (Research scholar, Third world studies Jamial Milia Islamia, New 34. Delhi) 35. Putul (Social activist, New Delhi) 36. Asit (Activist and researcher New Delhi) 37. Sayantoni (Researcher, New Delhi) 38. Bhuwan Pathak (Social activist, Uttarakhand) 39. Kumar Sameer (Social activist, New Delhi ) 40. Anil Pushkar (Research scholar centre for Indian languages, school of language 41. JNU) 42. Ajit Jha (Reader University) 43. Sukla Sen (EKTA, Mumbai) 44. Prem Krishan Sharma, President PUCL, Rajasthan 45. Radha Kant Saxena, vice President, PUCL, Rajasthan 46. Kavita Srivastava, General Secretary, PUCL, Rajasthan 47. DL Tripathi, President, Ajmer district, PUCL, Rajasthan 48. Anant Tripathi, General Secretary, Ajmer District, Rajasthan 49. Prakash Chaturvedi, Secretary, Rajasthan Jan Morcha ( Front of Alternative politics in n Rajasthan) 50. Than Singh, Chairperson, Rajasthan Jan Morcha 51. Nishat Hussein, VP PUCL, Rajasthan 52. Dr. John Dayal (Ex_President catholic Union, New Delhi) 53. Anil Chaudhary (Insaf New Delhi) 54. Piyus Pant (Editor-Lok Samvad, New Delhi) 55. Amit Pokhriyal (Research Scholar, JNU) 56. Aftab Alam (Research Scholar, Centre for Political Studies, JNU) 57. Dr. Anupam Anand (Lecturer, Allahabad University, U.P) 58. Alka Prabhakar (Nari Mukti Sangthan, U.P) 59. D.P Singh (Bihan, Allahabad, U.P) 60. Adiyog (Awaz, Lucknow) 61. Bhan Sahu (Gurmil Morcha, Chattishgarh) 62. Vineet Kohli (Researcher New Delhi) 63. Gpanpat (Research scholar, Centre for Indian Languages, School of Language 1. JNU) 2. Rabin Chakrabarty (Social activist) 3. Dr. Arif Ali Syed 4. Ram Naryan Kumar 5. Bhawani Shankar Kusum (Journalist Ambar Rajasthan) 6. Vandana Mahajan 7. Anivar Arvind (Social activist Benglore) 8. Zafar Iqbal (Washington U.S.A.) 9. Dr. Nargis Jaffrey 10. Shweta Anand (Research Scholar School of Social Science JNU) 11. Feroze Mithiborewala (Awami Bharat Mumbai) 12. V.S. Roy David (Convener National Adivasi Alliance, Karnataka) 13. Sarad Rahman (Sub editor Madhyamam daily Kochi Kerala) 14. Noor Jahan Mommin (Post Graduate Student Bombay University, Mumbai) 15. Arun Kumar Panibaba (Senior journalist New Delhi) 16. Josna (Critical quest Delhi) 17. Alok (Krantikar Yuva sanghthan Delhi) 18. Abha Bhaiya (Womens rights activist) 19. Sanjay Kumar (Research Fellow Indian Institute of Foreign trade New Delhi) 20. Gufran (Theatre activist New Delhi) 21. Jeet Bhatacharya (Research scholar, Film studies school of Art and Aesthetics, JNU) 22. Srireka Mazumdar (Student SL / CLIN, JNU) 23. Vikram Singh (SADED New Delhi) From pawan.durani at gmail.com Mon Apr 6 13:05:52 2009 From: pawan.durani at gmail.com (Pawan Durani) Date: Mon, 6 Apr 2009 13:05:52 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Communists ask for forgiveness for acts committed in past In-Reply-To: <341380d00904060015y68f55e16taae597784e2b30a2@mail.gmail.com> References: <6b79f1a70904051109l646b64cbnf61e805708d58381@mail.gmail.com> <341380d00904052249u3f408d50p6f5ada0b1cf80e75@mail.gmail.com> <6b79f1a70904052302idae6f55p9d48178b984a5992@mail.gmail.com> <341380d00904052316r6adfca11ue98be47913d628f8@mail.gmail.com> <6b79f1a70904052332o39ffbf81rd0b415f572b3b20b@mail.gmail.com> <341380d00904052337k215afa8ag6486b5a4a7938632@mail.gmail.com> <6b79f1a70904052349h27655c12n672421bcd85e5546@mail.gmail.com> <341380d00904060015y68f55e16taae597784e2b30a2@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <6b79f1a70904060035k5d33ea19xb93f0a5d5e54b70d@mail.gmail.com> Dear Anupam , I suggest you learn E-mailing before you blame gmail. I do not like a personal interaction going public irrespective of whether I am involved or not. Ethics come with responsibility and that is a word for you to understand. Being critical of 'sickular' also does not make me a BJP cadre. I don't mind turning immature to teach some immatures. As for me , i would join the party i like some day when i feel . Till now I am not a member of any. I was an activist of SFI many years back in Kashmir , voted for National Conference when i was very young, Indira Gandhi ji was like revered like a mother , and I am a supporter of Panun Kashmir cause and not its member. I do not wish to join politics for making 'loads of money' ....the day I wish .....i would have a red flag in my hand and a false commitment to labor class and a photo of non Indian on the wall behind the place i sit. Pawan On Mon, Apr 6, 2009 at 12:45 PM, anupam chakravartty wrote: > dear pawan, gmail actually offers a direct reply...so unknowingly i might > have sent you the first mail. from the beginning itself i intended to make > this conversation public...so the question of ethics doesnt arise here..if > it has hurt you, i would blame it on the gmail. > > being critical of BJP's policy doesnt make me a red flag. looks like you > are really immature in political debates. why dont you give and do some > party work? its gainful employment..you can make loads of money. > > > > > On 4/6/09, Pawan Durani wrote: > >> Dear Anupam ji , >> >> You are as unethical as any red flag bearer is. >> >> You preferred to have an offline conversation with me and suddenly you >> send the whole exchange to a discussion forum. >> >> Is this the ethics being taught by your senior comrades ? I pity you >> for not having learnt basic etiquette. >> >> Your motives and conduct stink..... >> >> Pawan >> >> On Mon, Apr 6, 2009 at 12:07 PM, anupam chakravartty >> wrote: >> > precisely, this is what you think...now why would BJP call the killing of >> > muslims an unfortunate incident is what im surprised about? BJP actually >> > planned it...n thanks for telling me...if they have the guts demolish an >> > archealogical site, terrorising innocent people is their second nature. >> > >> > On 4/6/09, Pawan Durani wrote: >> >> >> >> Yes , 100 crore Indian would fund it. >> >> >> >> On Mon, Apr 6, 2009 at 11:46 AM, anupam chakravartty < >> c.anupam at gmail.com> >> >> wrote: >> >> > who? atal behari vajpeyee..he is not even there. instead we have more, >> >> shall >> >> > i say a "purified" version? of modi...mr varun gandhi. since u seem to >> be >> >> an >> >> > insider in the BJP, why not tell us who is funding the Ram Temple? >> will >> >> it >> >> > be publicly funded... >> >> > On 4/6/09, Pawan Durani wrote: >> >> >> >> >> >> Anupam Ji , >> >> >> >> >> >> Probably you read only those news item which carry the red flag . Has >> >> >> not the BJP also termed Gujarat incident as unfortunate. >> >> >> >> >> >> Pawan >> >> >> >> >> >> On Mon, Apr 6, 2009 at 11:19 AM, anupam chakravartty < >> >> c.anupam at gmail.com> >> >> >> wrote: >> >> >> > at least they acknowledge their acts unlike maya kodnani and the >> >> saffron >> >> >> > bandwagon who killed so many in gujarat. although its an >> interesting >> >> >> piece >> >> >> > of news. >> >> >> > anupam >> >> >> > On 4/5/09, Pawan Durani wrote: >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> http://www.business-standard.com/india/news/cpimdefensive-seeks-forgiveness/354025/ >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> Party cadres told to go to people and seek forgiveness for their >> acts >> >> >> >> committed in the past. >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> The CPI(M) in West Bengal has finally decided to do something >> which >> >> it >> >> >> >> had not done in the last three decades: seek people’s forgiveness. >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> Biman Bose, the state secretary of the ruling party, has >> repeatedly >> >> >> >> asked his party cadres to go to people and seek forgiveness for >> their >> >> >> >> acts committed in the past. Earlier, Bose had gone to public while >> >> >> >> addressing an election meeting in Purulia, saying that “some of >> our >> >> >> >> leaders have become arrogant”. Though he did not identify any of >> >> those >> >> >> >> “arrogant” leaders, he later pursued the issue in the CPI(M) state >> >> >> >> secretariat and Left Front meetings. He also admitted in public >> that >> >> >> >> he had advised the party cadres to tender an apology to the people >> >> for >> >> >> >> their past arrogance. >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> Following the CPI(M), the Forward Bloc (FB), another Left Front >> >> >> >> partner, has also taken the same approach. Yesterday, at a meeting >> of >> >> >> >> the party’s trade union wing TUCC, FB state secretary Ashok Ghosh >> >> >> >> urged the cadres not to show arrogance in their behaviour towards >> >> >> >> people and also to seek forgiveness for their past acts, if any. >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> In other words, this is an admission from the top leaders that >> three >> >> >> >> decades of uninterrupted power has created a class of arrogant >> >> leaders >> >> >> >> and cadres which in turn is pushing the people away from the Left. >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> Gurudas Dasgupta, the CPI MP from Bengal who is now busy fighting >> >> >> >> another electoral battle from Ghatal (after the delimitation >> process, >> >> >> >> the old Panskura constituency has been renamed as Ghatal), feels >> this >> >> >> >> is good tactical move. “It is a defensive game, where defence is >> the >> >> >> >> best offence,” he says. >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> But the Opposition detects a streak of nervousness in these >> campaign >> >> >> >> tactics. Congress leader Manas Bhuian is convinced that the >> “CPI(M) >> >> >> >> now is nervous. It could read the writing on the wall and that >> forced >> >> >> >> it to change the tactic. But power has gone to their head. They >> are >> >> >> >> giddy with success and for that they can’t change their attitude >> >> >> >> overnight”. >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> Sudip Banerjee, the TMC candidate from North Kolkata, feels: “The >> >> >> >> CPI(M) is now really on the defensive. But no matter how much it >> >> tries >> >> >> >> to extricate itself from this position, it won’t succeed. It is >> too >> >> >> >> little and too late.” >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> But a section of CPI(M) leaders, who are close to Biman Bose, >> believe >> >> >> >> that this move might put a stop to the erosion of support in the >> >> rural >> >> >> >> areas where in the recent past the Left suffered a series of >> >> electoral >> >> >> >> setbacks. >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> Last year, after having a major debacle in the panchayat >> elections, >> >> >> >> the party tried to find out the causes of the setback. The review >> >> >> >> brought out the seamy side of the party organisation at the >> >> grassroots >> >> >> >> level, where leaders have amassed huge power in their hands and >> >> turned >> >> >> >> into tyrants themselves. For the party, it was a revelation, but >> the >> >> >> >> people knew it already through their day to day experiences. >> >> >> >> Incidentally, along that line, a move to sideline some of those >> >> >> >> leaders in the election was also mooted by the leadership but >> finally >> >> >> >> discarded after considering it too hasty while finalising the >> >> >> >> candidates’ list. >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> According to insiders, by asking the party cadres to be more >> humble >> >> in >> >> >> >> their approach to the people, Biman Bose also wants to send a >> signal >> >> >> >> to those party satraps to fall in line. >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> It is to be watched if the measures taken at the higher level can >> >> >> >> discipline the party organisation, but truly it is a climb-down >> from >> >> >> >> the position they earlier used to enjoy in the state. >> >> >> >> _________________________________________ >> >> >> >> reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. >> >> >> >> Critiques & Collaborations >> >> >> >> To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with >> >> >> >> subscribe in the subject header. >> >> >> >> To unsubscribe: >> https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list >> >> >> >> List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> >> >> >> > >> >> >> >> >> > _________________________________________ >> >> > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. >> >> > Critiques & Collaborations >> >> > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with >> >> subscribe in the subject header. >> >> > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list >> >> > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> >> >> >> > _________________________________________ >> > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. >> > Critiques & Collaborations >> > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with >> subscribe in the subject header. >> > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list >> > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> >> > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with subscribe in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> From c.anupam at gmail.com Mon Apr 6 13:27:39 2009 From: c.anupam at gmail.com (anupam chakravartty) Date: Mon, 6 Apr 2009 13:27:39 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Communists ask for forgiveness for acts committed in past In-Reply-To: <6b79f1a70904060035k5d33ea19xb93f0a5d5e54b70d@mail.gmail.com> References: <6b79f1a70904051109l646b64cbnf61e805708d58381@mail.gmail.com> <341380d00904052249u3f408d50p6f5ada0b1cf80e75@mail.gmail.com> <6b79f1a70904052302idae6f55p9d48178b984a5992@mail.gmail.com> <341380d00904052316r6adfca11ue98be47913d628f8@mail.gmail.com> <6b79f1a70904052332o39ffbf81rd0b415f572b3b20b@mail.gmail.com> <341380d00904052337k215afa8ag6486b5a4a7938632@mail.gmail.com> <6b79f1a70904052349h27655c12n672421bcd85e5546@mail.gmail.com> <341380d00904060015y68f55e16taae597784e2b30a2@mail.gmail.com> <6b79f1a70904060035k5d33ea19xb93f0a5d5e54b70d@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <341380d00904060057m27bf0558h32311722da30e282@mail.gmail.com> Dear Pawan, I will be learning about emailing ethics for sure. you see its something new to me. But looks like you've been quite a turncoat (if you what that means). you started with SFI, moved to indira gandhi, then national conf, now Panun Kashmir. how long do you plan to stick around with hindutva...trust me its in fashion now. ideological/political trends in this country last for five years. anyway...i dont intend to hurt your faith or idealogical inclinations. it is a request that you should be real about your allegations. Like i dont trust the commies, i have the same feeling for saffron. one rejects my faith, the other puts a question mark on it by suppressing the true nature of it. my faith is personal. it cannot assume a fanatical form like how various saffron groups. it will contradict what upanishads or the gita says. political form of hinduism is a contradiction to its very foundation. there are several persons off all political hues who would agree to this very nature of my faith. now its upto you how you want to manufacture opinion around it. regards anupam On 4/6/09, Pawan Durani wrote: > > Dear Anupam , > > I suggest you learn E-mailing before you blame gmail. I do not like a > personal interaction going public irrespective of whether I am > involved or not. Ethics come with responsibility and that is a word > for you to understand. > > Being critical of 'sickular' also does not make me a BJP cadre. I > don't mind turning immature to teach some immatures. > > As for me , i would join the party i like some day when i feel . Till > now I am not a member of any. > > I was an activist of SFI many years back in Kashmir , voted for > National Conference when i was very young, Indira Gandhi ji was like > revered like a mother , and I am a supporter of Panun Kashmir cause > and not its member. > > I do not wish to join politics for making 'loads of money' ....the day > I wish .....i would have a red flag in my hand and a false commitment > to labor class and a photo of non Indian on the wall behind the place > i sit. > > Pawan > > > > On Mon, Apr 6, 2009 at 12:45 PM, anupam chakravartty > wrote: > > dear pawan, gmail actually offers a direct reply...so unknowingly i might > > have sent you the first mail. from the beginning itself i intended to > make > > this conversation public...so the question of ethics doesnt arise > here..if > > it has hurt you, i would blame it on the gmail. > > > > being critical of BJP's policy doesnt make me a red flag. looks like you > > are really immature in political debates. why dont you give and do some > > party work? its gainful employment..you can make loads of money. > > > > > > > > > > On 4/6/09, Pawan Durani wrote: > > > >> Dear Anupam ji , > >> > >> You are as unethical as any red flag bearer is. > >> > >> You preferred to have an offline conversation with me and suddenly you > >> send the whole exchange to a discussion forum. > >> > >> Is this the ethics being taught by your senior comrades ? I pity you > >> for not having learnt basic etiquette. > >> > >> Your motives and conduct stink..... > >> > >> Pawan > >> > >> On Mon, Apr 6, 2009 at 12:07 PM, anupam chakravartty < > c.anupam at gmail.com> > >> wrote: > >> > precisely, this is what you think...now why would BJP call the killing > of > >> > muslims an unfortunate incident is what im surprised about? BJP > actually > >> > planned it...n thanks for telling me...if they have the guts demolish > an > >> > archealogical site, terrorising innocent people is their second > nature. > >> > > >> > On 4/6/09, Pawan Durani wrote: > >> >> > >> >> Yes , 100 crore Indian would fund it. > >> >> > >> >> On Mon, Apr 6, 2009 at 11:46 AM, anupam chakravartty < > >> c.anupam at gmail.com> > >> >> wrote: > >> >> > who? atal behari vajpeyee..he is not even there. instead we have > more, > >> >> shall > >> >> > i say a "purified" version? of modi...mr varun gandhi. since u seem > to > >> be > >> >> an > >> >> > insider in the BJP, why not tell us who is funding the Ram Temple? > >> will > >> >> it > >> >> > be publicly funded... > >> >> > On 4/6/09, Pawan Durani wrote: > >> >> >> > >> >> >> Anupam Ji , > >> >> >> > >> >> >> Probably you read only those news item which carry the red flag . > Has > >> >> >> not the BJP also termed Gujarat incident as unfortunate. > >> >> >> > >> >> >> Pawan > >> >> >> > >> >> >> On Mon, Apr 6, 2009 at 11:19 AM, anupam chakravartty < > >> >> c.anupam at gmail.com> > >> >> >> wrote: > >> >> >> > at least they acknowledge their acts unlike maya kodnani and the > >> >> saffron > >> >> >> > bandwagon who killed so many in gujarat. although its an > >> interesting > >> >> >> piece > >> >> >> > of news. > >> >> >> > anupam > >> >> >> > On 4/5/09, Pawan Durani wrote: > >> >> >> >> > >> >> >> >> > >> >> >> >> > >> >> >> > >> >> > >> > http://www.business-standard.com/india/news/cpimdefensive-seeks-forgiveness/354025/ > >> >> >> >> > >> >> >> >> Party cadres told to go to people and seek forgiveness for > their > >> acts > >> >> >> >> committed in the past. > >> >> >> >> > >> >> >> >> The CPI(M) in West Bengal has finally decided to do something > >> which > >> >> it > >> >> >> >> had not done in the last three decades: seek people’s > forgiveness. > >> >> >> >> > >> >> >> >> Biman Bose, the state secretary of the ruling party, has > >> repeatedly > >> >> >> >> asked his party cadres to go to people and seek forgiveness for > >> their > >> >> >> >> acts committed in the past. Earlier, Bose had gone to public > while > >> >> >> >> addressing an election meeting in Purulia, saying that “some of > >> our > >> >> >> >> leaders have become arrogant”. Though he did not identify any > of > >> >> those > >> >> >> >> “arrogant” leaders, he later pursued the issue in the CPI(M) > state > >> >> >> >> secretariat and Left Front meetings. He also admitted in public > >> that > >> >> >> >> he had advised the party cadres to tender an apology to the > people > >> >> for > >> >> >> >> their past arrogance. > >> >> >> >> > >> >> >> >> Following the CPI(M), the Forward Bloc (FB), another Left Front > >> >> >> >> partner, has also taken the same approach. Yesterday, at a > meeting > >> of > >> >> >> >> the party’s trade union wing TUCC, FB state secretary Ashok > Ghosh > >> >> >> >> urged the cadres not to show arrogance in their behaviour > towards > >> >> >> >> people and also to seek forgiveness for their past acts, if > any. > >> >> >> >> > >> >> >> >> In other words, this is an admission from the top leaders that > >> three > >> >> >> >> decades of uninterrupted power has created a class of arrogant > >> >> leaders > >> >> >> >> and cadres which in turn is pushing the people away from the > Left. > >> >> >> >> > >> >> >> >> Gurudas Dasgupta, the CPI MP from Bengal who is now busy > fighting > >> >> >> >> another electoral battle from Ghatal (after the delimitation > >> process, > >> >> >> >> the old Panskura constituency has been renamed as Ghatal), > feels > >> this > >> >> >> >> is good tactical move. “It is a defensive game, where defence > is > >> the > >> >> >> >> best offence,” he says. > >> >> >> >> > >> >> >> >> But the Opposition detects a streak of nervousness in these > >> campaign > >> >> >> >> tactics. Congress leader Manas Bhuian is convinced that the > >> “CPI(M) > >> >> >> >> now is nervous. It could read the writing on the wall and that > >> forced > >> >> >> >> it to change the tactic. But power has gone to their head. They > >> are > >> >> >> >> giddy with success and for that they can’t change their > attitude > >> >> >> >> overnight”. > >> >> >> >> > >> >> >> >> Sudip Banerjee, the TMC candidate from North Kolkata, feels: > “The > >> >> >> >> CPI(M) is now really on the defensive. But no matter how much > it > >> >> tries > >> >> >> >> to extricate itself from this position, it won’t succeed. It is > >> too > >> >> >> >> little and too late.” > >> >> >> >> > >> >> >> >> But a section of CPI(M) leaders, who are close to Biman Bose, > >> believe > >> >> >> >> that this move might put a stop to the erosion of support in > the > >> >> rural > >> >> >> >> areas where in the recent past the Left suffered a series of > >> >> electoral > >> >> >> >> setbacks. > >> >> >> >> > >> >> >> >> Last year, after having a major debacle in the panchayat > >> elections, > >> >> >> >> the party tried to find out the causes of the setback. The > review > >> >> >> >> brought out the seamy side of the party organisation at the > >> >> grassroots > >> >> >> >> level, where leaders have amassed huge power in their hands and > >> >> turned > >> >> >> >> into tyrants themselves. For the party, it was a revelation, > but > >> the > >> >> >> >> people knew it already through their day to day experiences. > >> >> >> >> Incidentally, along that line, a move to sideline some of those > >> >> >> >> leaders in the election was also mooted by the leadership but > >> finally > >> >> >> >> discarded after considering it too hasty while finalising the > >> >> >> >> candidates’ list. > >> >> >> >> > >> >> >> >> According to insiders, by asking the party cadres to be more > >> humble > >> >> in > >> >> >> >> their approach to the people, Biman Bose also wants to send a > >> signal > >> >> >> >> to those party satraps to fall in line. > >> >> >> >> > >> >> >> >> It is to be watched if the measures taken at the higher level > can > >> >> >> >> discipline the party organisation, but truly it is a climb-down > >> from > >> >> >> >> the position they earlier used to enjoy in the state. > >> >> >> >> _________________________________________ > >> >> >> >> reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > >> >> >> >> Critiques & Collaborations > >> >> >> >> To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.netwith > >> >> >> >> subscribe in the subject header. > >> >> >> >> To unsubscribe: > >> https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > >> >> >> >> List archive: < > https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> > >> >> >> > > >> >> >> > >> >> > _________________________________________ > >> >> > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > >> >> > Critiques & Collaborations > >> >> > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > >> >> subscribe in the subject header. > >> >> > To unsubscribe: > https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > >> >> > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> > >> >> > >> > _________________________________________ > >> > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > >> > Critiques & Collaborations > >> > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > >> subscribe in the subject header. > >> > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > >> > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> > >> > > _________________________________________ > > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > > Critiques & Collaborations > > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > subscribe in the subject header. > > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> > From pawan.durani at gmail.com Mon Apr 6 13:32:12 2009 From: pawan.durani at gmail.com (Pawan Durani) Date: Mon, 6 Apr 2009 13:32:12 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Communists ask for forgiveness for acts committed in past In-Reply-To: <341380d00904060057m27bf0558h32311722da30e282@mail.gmail.com> References: <6b79f1a70904051109l646b64cbnf61e805708d58381@mail.gmail.com> <341380d00904052249u3f408d50p6f5ada0b1cf80e75@mail.gmail.com> <6b79f1a70904052302idae6f55p9d48178b984a5992@mail.gmail.com> <341380d00904052316r6adfca11ue98be47913d628f8@mail.gmail.com> <6b79f1a70904052332o39ffbf81rd0b415f572b3b20b@mail.gmail.com> <341380d00904052337k215afa8ag6486b5a4a7938632@mail.gmail.com> <6b79f1a70904052349h27655c12n672421bcd85e5546@mail.gmail.com> <341380d00904060015y68f55e16taae597784e2b30a2@mail.gmail.com> <6b79f1a70904060035k5d33ea19xb93f0a5d5e54b70d@mail.gmail.com> <341380d00904060057m27bf0558h32311722da30e282@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <6b79f1a70904060102l2802889fl480924b942a78916@mail.gmail.com> Learn more Anupam.....you need to do that SFI was about student activism Indira Gandhi was a leader National Conference was the only party which could have defeated Muslim United Front Panun Kashmir is my right which needs to be supported by all people Do you need to learn more ? God Bless ......atleast you follow a faith... Pawan On Mon, Apr 6, 2009 at 1:27 PM, anupam chakravartty wrote: > Dear Pawan, > > I will be learning about emailing ethics for sure. you see its something new > to me. > > But looks like you've been quite a turncoat (if you what that means). you > started with SFI, moved to indira gandhi, then national conf, now Panun > Kashmir. how long do you plan to stick around with hindutva...trust me its > in fashion now. ideological/political trends in this country last for five > years. > > anyway...i dont intend to hurt your faith or idealogical inclinations. it is > a request that you should be real about your allegations. Like i dont trust > the commies, i have the same feeling for saffron. one rejects my faith, the > other puts a question mark on it by suppressing the true nature of it. my > faith is personal. it cannot assume a fanatical form like how various > saffron groups. it will contradict what upanishads or the gita says. > political form of hinduism is a contradiction to its very foundation. there > are several persons off all political hues who would agree to this very > nature of my faith. now its upto you how you want to manufacture opinion > around it. > > regards > anupam > > On 4/6/09, Pawan Durani wrote: >> >> Dear Anupam , >> >> I suggest you learn E-mailing before you blame gmail. I do not like a >> personal interaction going public irrespective of whether I am >> involved or not. Ethics come with responsibility and that is a word >> for you to understand. >> >> Being critical of 'sickular' also does not make  me a BJP cadre. I >> don't mind turning immature to teach some immatures. >> >> As for me , i would join the party i like some day when i feel . Till >> now I am not a member of any. >> >> I was an activist of SFI many years back in Kashmir , voted for >> National Conference when i was very young, Indira Gandhi ji was like >> revered like a mother , and I am a supporter of Panun Kashmir cause >> and not its member. >> >> I do not wish to join politics for making 'loads of money' ....the day >> I wish .....i would have a red flag in my hand and a false commitment >> to labor class and a photo of non Indian on the wall behind the place >> i sit. >> >> Pawan >> >> >> >> On Mon, Apr 6, 2009 at 12:45 PM, anupam chakravartty >> wrote: >> > dear pawan, gmail actually offers a direct reply...so unknowingly i might >> > have sent you the first mail. from the beginning itself i intended to >> make >> > this conversation public...so the question of ethics doesnt arise >> here..if >> > it has hurt you, i would blame it on the gmail. >> > >> > being critical of BJP's policy doesnt make me a red flag. looks like you >> > are really immature in political debates. why dont you give and do some >> > party work? its gainful employment..you can make loads of money. >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > On 4/6/09, Pawan Durani wrote: >> > >> >> Dear Anupam ji , >> >> >> >> You are as unethical as any red flag bearer is. >> >> >> >> You preferred to have an offline conversation with me and suddenly you >> >> send the whole exchange to a discussion forum. >> >> >> >> Is this the ethics being taught by your senior comrades ? I pity you >> >> for not having learnt basic etiquette. >> >> >> >> Your motives and conduct stink..... >> >> >> >> Pawan >> >> >> >> On Mon, Apr 6, 2009 at 12:07 PM, anupam chakravartty < >> c.anupam at gmail.com> >> >> wrote: >> >> > precisely, this is what you think...now why would BJP call the killing >> of >> >> > muslims an unfortunate incident is what im surprised about? BJP >> actually >> >> > planned it...n thanks for telling me...if they have the guts demolish >> an >> >> > archealogical site, terrorising innocent people is their second >> nature. >> >> > >> >> > On 4/6/09, Pawan Durani wrote: >> >> >> >> >> >> Yes , 100 crore Indian would fund it. >> >> >> >> >> >> On Mon, Apr 6, 2009 at 11:46 AM, anupam chakravartty < >> >> c.anupam at gmail.com> >> >> >> wrote: >> >> >> > who? atal behari vajpeyee..he is not even there. instead we have >> more, >> >> >> shall >> >> >> > i say a "purified" version? of modi...mr varun gandhi. since u seem >> to >> >> be >> >> >> an >> >> >> > insider in the BJP, why not tell us who is funding the Ram Temple? >> >> will >> >> >> it >> >> >> > be publicly funded... >> >> >> > On 4/6/09, Pawan Durani wrote: >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> Anupam Ji , >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> Probably you read only those news item which carry the red flag . >> Has >> >> >> >> not the BJP also termed Gujarat incident as unfortunate. >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> Pawan >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> On Mon, Apr 6, 2009 at 11:19 AM, anupam chakravartty < >> >> >> c.anupam at gmail.com> >> >> >> >> wrote: >> >> >> >> > at least they acknowledge their acts unlike maya kodnani and the >> >> >> saffron >> >> >> >> > bandwagon who killed so many in gujarat. although its an >> >> interesting >> >> >> >> piece >> >> >> >> > of news. >> >> >> >> > anupam >> >> >> >> > On 4/5/09, Pawan Durani wrote: >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> http://www.business-standard.com/india/news/cpimdefensive-seeks-forgiveness/354025/ >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> Party cadres told to go to people and seek forgiveness for >> their >> >> acts >> >> >> >> >> committed in the past. >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> The CPI(M) in West Bengal has finally decided to do something >> >> which >> >> >> it >> >> >> >> >> had not done in the last three decades: seek people’s >> forgiveness. >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> Biman Bose, the state secretary of the ruling party, has >> >> repeatedly >> >> >> >> >> asked his party cadres to go to people and seek forgiveness for >> >> their >> >> >> >> >> acts committed in the past. Earlier, Bose had gone to public >> while >> >> >> >> >> addressing an election meeting in Purulia, saying that “some of >> >> our >> >> >> >> >> leaders have become arrogant”. Though he did not identify any >> of >> >> >> those >> >> >> >> >> “arrogant” leaders, he later pursued the issue in the CPI(M) >> state >> >> >> >> >> secretariat and Left Front meetings. He also admitted in public >> >> that >> >> >> >> >> he had advised the party cadres to tender an apology to the >> people >> >> >> for >> >> >> >> >> their past arrogance. >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> Following the CPI(M), the Forward Bloc (FB), another Left Front >> >> >> >> >> partner, has also taken the same approach. Yesterday, at a >> meeting >> >> of >> >> >> >> >> the party’s trade union wing TUCC, FB state secretary Ashok >> Ghosh >> >> >> >> >> urged the cadres not to show arrogance in their behaviour >> towards >> >> >> >> >> people and also to seek forgiveness for their past acts, if >> any. >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> In other words, this is an admission from the top leaders that >> >> three >> >> >> >> >> decades of uninterrupted power has created a class of arrogant >> >> >> leaders >> >> >> >> >> and cadres which in turn is pushing the people away from the >> Left. >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> Gurudas Dasgupta, the CPI MP from Bengal who is now busy >> fighting >> >> >> >> >> another electoral battle from Ghatal (after the delimitation >> >> process, >> >> >> >> >> the old Panskura constituency has been renamed as Ghatal), >> feels >> >> this >> >> >> >> >> is good tactical move. “It is a defensive game, where defence >> is >> >> the >> >> >> >> >> best offence,” he says. >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> But the Opposition detects a streak of nervousness in these >> >> campaign >> >> >> >> >> tactics. Congress leader Manas Bhuian is convinced that the >> >> “CPI(M) >> >> >> >> >> now is nervous. It could read the writing on the wall and that >> >> forced >> >> >> >> >> it to change the tactic. But power has gone to their head. They >> >> are >> >> >> >> >> giddy with success and for that they can’t change their >> attitude >> >> >> >> >> overnight”. >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> Sudip Banerjee, the TMC candidate from North Kolkata, feels: >> “The >> >> >> >> >> CPI(M) is now really on the defensive. But no matter how much >> it >> >> >> tries >> >> >> >> >> to extricate itself from this position, it won’t succeed. It is >> >> too >> >> >> >> >> little and too late.” >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> But a section of CPI(M) leaders, who are close to Biman Bose, >> >> believe >> >> >> >> >> that this move might put a stop to the erosion of support in >> the >> >> >> rural >> >> >> >> >> areas where in the recent past the Left suffered a series of >> >> >> electoral >> >> >> >> >> setbacks. >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> Last year, after having a major debacle in the panchayat >> >> elections, >> >> >> >> >> the party tried to find out the causes of the setback. The >> review >> >> >> >> >> brought out the seamy side of the party organisation at the >> >> >> grassroots >> >> >> >> >> level, where leaders have amassed huge power in their hands and >> >> >> turned >> >> >> >> >> into tyrants themselves. For the party, it was a revelation, >> but >> >> the >> >> >> >> >> people knew it already through their day to day experiences. >> >> >> >> >> Incidentally, along that line, a move to sideline some of those >> >> >> >> >> leaders in the election was also mooted by the leadership but >> >> finally >> >> >> >> >> discarded after considering it too hasty while finalising the >> >> >> >> >> candidates’ list. >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> According to insiders, by asking the party cadres to be more >> >> humble >> >> >> in >> >> >> >> >> their approach to the people, Biman Bose also wants to send a >> >> signal >> >> >> >> >> to those party satraps to fall in line. >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> It is to be watched if the measures taken at the higher level >> can >> >> >> >> >> discipline the party organisation, but truly it is a climb-down >> >> from >> >> >> >> >> the position they earlier used to enjoy in the state. >> >> >> >> >> _________________________________________ >> >> >> >> >> reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. >> >> >> >> >> Critiques & Collaborations >> >> >> >> >> To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.netwith >> >> >> >> >> subscribe in the subject header. >> >> >> >> >> To unsubscribe: >> >> https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list >> >> >> >> >> List archive: < >> https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> >> >> >> >> > >> >> >> >> >> >> >> > _________________________________________ >> >> >> > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. >> >> >> > Critiques & Collaborations >> >> >> > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with >> >> >> subscribe in the subject header. >> >> >> > To unsubscribe: >> https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list >> >> >> > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> >> >> >> >> >> > _________________________________________ >> >> > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. >> >> > Critiques & Collaborations >> >> > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with >> >> subscribe in the subject header. >> >> > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list >> >> > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> >> >> >> > _________________________________________ >> > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. >> > Critiques & Collaborations >> > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with >> subscribe in the subject header. >> > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list >> > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> >> > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with subscribe in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> From c.anupam at gmail.com Mon Apr 6 13:57:49 2009 From: c.anupam at gmail.com (anupam chakravartty) Date: Mon, 6 Apr 2009 13:57:49 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Fwd: Communists ask for forgiveness for acts committed in past In-Reply-To: <341380d00904060125w3482c2aflf6f494b5ec1109b1@mail.gmail.com> References: <6b79f1a70904051109l646b64cbnf61e805708d58381@mail.gmail.com> <341380d00904052316r6adfca11ue98be47913d628f8@mail.gmail.com> <6b79f1a70904052332o39ffbf81rd0b415f572b3b20b@mail.gmail.com> <341380d00904052337k215afa8ag6486b5a4a7938632@mail.gmail.com> <6b79f1a70904052349h27655c12n672421bcd85e5546@mail.gmail.com> <341380d00904060015y68f55e16taae597784e2b30a2@mail.gmail.com> <6b79f1a70904060035k5d33ea19xb93f0a5d5e54b70d@mail.gmail.com> <341380d00904060057m27bf0558h32311722da30e282@mail.gmail.com> <6b79f1a70904060102l2802889fl480924b942a78916@mail.gmail.com> <341380d00904060125w3482c2aflf6f494b5ec1109b1@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <341380d00904060127m417101ber34774cf843a5691a@mail.gmail.com> ---------- Forwarded message ---------- From: anupam chakravartty Date: Apr 6, 2009 1:55 PM Subject: Re: [Reader-list] Communists ask for forgiveness for acts committed in past To: Pawan Durani yes sir, sure i would have love to learn all about the political turncoats like you who justify all their actions by changing their political attire like a bollywood star. but it doesnt suit my taste. although, at least you are honest that you shifted allegiances for your own cause. i never said i disrespect the cause of kashmiris especially those who were displaced. but it is unfortunate, like you, several of them have been misguided to believe that it is a communal battle. but there are voices independent of these communal ideas. i was in jammu art college for a month and spoke to several artists following various faiths. without being biased towards the human rights abuse in kashmir and cause of the kashmiris who have been displaced, they were all united against the state policies in dealing with kashmir. they did not understand the communal side of the kashmir conflict. they refused to. they were small in numbers, slightly whimsical about their works but one voice from jammu and kashmir. i guess that was real. i would love learn more from them instead of someone trying to educate me about where the political parties are placed in the ideological spectrum of this country. thanks again for saying learn anupam On 4/6/09, Pawan Durani wrote: > > Learn more Anupam.....you need to do that > > SFI was about student activism > Indira Gandhi was a leader > National Conference was the only party which could have defeated > Muslim United Front > Panun Kashmir is my right which needs to be supported by all people > > Do you need to learn more ? > > God Bless ......atleast you follow a faith... > > Pawan > > > On Mon, Apr 6, 2009 at 1:27 PM, anupam chakravartty > wrote: > > Dear Pawan, > > > > I will be learning about emailing ethics for sure. you see its something > new > > to me. > > > > But looks like you've been quite a turncoat (if you what that means). you > > started with SFI, moved to indira gandhi, then national conf, now Panun > > Kashmir. how long do you plan to stick around with hindutva...trust me > its > > in fashion now. ideological/political trends in this country last for > five > > years. > > > > anyway...i dont intend to hurt your faith or idealogical inclinations. it > is > > a request that you should be real about your allegations. Like i dont > trust > > the commies, i have the same feeling for saffron. one rejects my faith, > the > > other puts a question mark on it by suppressing the true nature of it. my > > faith is personal. it cannot assume a fanatical form like how various > > saffron groups. it will contradict what upanishads or the gita says. > > political form of hinduism is a contradiction to its very foundation. > there > > are several persons off all political hues who would agree to this very > > nature of my faith. now its upto you how you want to manufacture opinion > > around it. > > > > regards > > anupam > > > > On 4/6/09, Pawan Durani wrote: > >> > >> Dear Anupam , > >> > >> I suggest you learn E-mailing before you blame gmail. I do not like a > >> personal interaction going public irrespective of whether I am > >> involved or not. Ethics come with responsibility and that is a word > >> for you to understand. > >> > >> Being critical of 'sickular' also does not make me a BJP cadre. I > >> don't mind turning immature to teach some immatures. > >> > >> As for me , i would join the party i like some day when i feel . Till > >> now I am not a member of any. > >> > >> I was an activist of SFI many years back in Kashmir , voted for > >> National Conference when i was very young, Indira Gandhi ji was like > >> revered like a mother , and I am a supporter of Panun Kashmir cause > >> and not its member. > >> > >> I do not wish to join politics for making 'loads of money' ....the day > >> I wish .....i would have a red flag in my hand and a false commitment > >> to labor class and a photo of non Indian on the wall behind the place > >> i sit. > >> > >> Pawan > >> > >> > >> > >> On Mon, Apr 6, 2009 at 12:45 PM, anupam chakravartty < > c.anupam at gmail.com> > >> wrote: > >> > dear pawan, gmail actually offers a direct reply...so unknowingly i > might > >> > have sent you the first mail. from the beginning itself i intended to > >> make > >> > this conversation public...so the question of ethics doesnt arise > >> here..if > >> > it has hurt you, i would blame it on the gmail. > >> > > >> > being critical of BJP's policy doesnt make me a red flag. looks like > you > >> > are really immature in political debates. why dont you give and do > some > >> > party work? its gainful employment..you can make loads of money. > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > On 4/6/09, Pawan Durani wrote: > >> > > >> >> Dear Anupam ji , > >> >> > >> >> You are as unethical as any red flag bearer is. > >> >> > >> >> You preferred to have an offline conversation with me and suddenly > you > >> >> send the whole exchange to a discussion forum. > >> >> > >> >> Is this the ethics being taught by your senior comrades ? I pity you > >> >> for not having learnt basic etiquette. > >> >> > >> >> Your motives and conduct stink..... > >> >> > >> >> Pawan > >> >> > >> >> On Mon, Apr 6, 2009 at 12:07 PM, anupam chakravartty < > >> c.anupam at gmail.com> > >> >> wrote: > >> >> > precisely, this is what you think...now why would BJP call the > killing > >> of > >> >> > muslims an unfortunate incident is what im surprised about? BJP > >> actually > >> >> > planned it...n thanks for telling me...if they have the guts > demolish > >> an > >> >> > archealogical site, terrorising innocent people is their second > >> nature. > >> >> > > >> >> > On 4/6/09, Pawan Durani wrote: > >> >> >> > >> >> >> Yes , 100 crore Indian would fund it. > >> >> >> > >> >> >> On Mon, Apr 6, 2009 at 11:46 AM, anupam chakravartty < > >> >> c.anupam at gmail.com> > >> >> >> wrote: > >> >> >> > who? atal behari vajpeyee..he is not even there. instead we have > >> more, > >> >> >> shall > >> >> >> > i say a "purified" version? of modi...mr varun gandhi. since u > seem > >> to > >> >> be > >> >> >> an > >> >> >> > insider in the BJP, why not tell us who is funding the Ram > Temple? > >> >> will > >> >> >> it > >> >> >> > be publicly funded... > >> >> >> > On 4/6/09, Pawan Durani wrote: > >> >> >> >> > >> >> >> >> Anupam Ji , > >> >> >> >> > >> >> >> >> Probably you read only those news item which carry the red flag > . > >> Has > >> >> >> >> not the BJP also termed Gujarat incident as unfortunate. > >> >> >> >> > >> >> >> >> Pawan > >> >> >> >> > >> >> >> >> On Mon, Apr 6, 2009 at 11:19 AM, anupam chakravartty < > >> >> >> c.anupam at gmail.com> > >> >> >> >> wrote: > >> >> >> >> > at least they acknowledge their acts unlike maya kodnani and > the > >> >> >> saffron > >> >> >> >> > bandwagon who killed so many in gujarat. although its an > >> >> interesting > >> >> >> >> piece > >> >> >> >> > of news. > >> >> >> >> > anupam > >> >> >> >> > On 4/5/09, Pawan Durani wrote: > >> >> >> >> >> > >> >> >> >> >> > >> >> >> >> >> > >> >> >> >> > >> >> >> > >> >> > >> > http://www.business-standard.com/india/news/cpimdefensive-seeks-forgiveness/354025/ > >> >> >> >> >> > >> >> >> >> >> Party cadres told to go to people and seek forgiveness for > >> their > >> >> acts > >> >> >> >> >> committed in the past. > >> >> >> >> >> > >> >> >> >> >> The CPI(M) in West Bengal has finally decided to do > something > >> >> which > >> >> >> it > >> >> >> >> >> had not done in the last three decades: seek people’s > >> forgiveness. > >> >> >> >> >> > >> >> >> >> >> Biman Bose, the state secretary of the ruling party, has > >> >> repeatedly > >> >> >> >> >> asked his party cadres to go to people and seek forgiveness > for > >> >> their > >> >> >> >> >> acts committed in the past. Earlier, Bose had gone to public > >> while > >> >> >> >> >> addressing an election meeting in Purulia, saying that “some > of > >> >> our > >> >> >> >> >> leaders have become arrogant”. Though he did not identify > any > >> of > >> >> >> those > >> >> >> >> >> “arrogant” leaders, he later pursued the issue in the CPI(M) > >> state > >> >> >> >> >> secretariat and Left Front meetings. He also admitted in > public > >> >> that > >> >> >> >> >> he had advised the party cadres to tender an apology to the > >> people > >> >> >> for > >> >> >> >> >> their past arrogance. > >> >> >> >> >> > >> >> >> >> >> Following the CPI(M), the Forward Bloc (FB), another Left > Front > >> >> >> >> >> partner, has also taken the same approach. Yesterday, at a > >> meeting > >> >> of > >> >> >> >> >> the party’s trade union wing TUCC, FB state secretary Ashok > >> Ghosh > >> >> >> >> >> urged the cadres not to show arrogance in their behaviour > >> towards > >> >> >> >> >> people and also to seek forgiveness for their past acts, if > >> any. > >> >> >> >> >> > >> >> >> >> >> In other words, this is an admission from the top leaders > that > >> >> three > >> >> >> >> >> decades of uninterrupted power has created a class of > arrogant > >> >> >> leaders > >> >> >> >> >> and cadres which in turn is pushing the people away from the > >> Left. > >> >> >> >> >> > >> >> >> >> >> Gurudas Dasgupta, the CPI MP from Bengal who is now busy > >> fighting > >> >> >> >> >> another electoral battle from Ghatal (after the delimitation > >> >> process, > >> >> >> >> >> the old Panskura constituency has been renamed as Ghatal), > >> feels > >> >> this > >> >> >> >> >> is good tactical move. “It is a defensive game, where > defence > >> is > >> >> the > >> >> >> >> >> best offence,” he says. > >> >> >> >> >> > >> >> >> >> >> But the Opposition detects a streak of nervousness in these > >> >> campaign > >> >> >> >> >> tactics. Congress leader Manas Bhuian is convinced that the > >> >> “CPI(M) > >> >> >> >> >> now is nervous. It could read the writing on the wall and > that > >> >> forced > >> >> >> >> >> it to change the tactic. But power has gone to their head. > They > >> >> are > >> >> >> >> >> giddy with success and for that they can’t change their > >> attitude > >> >> >> >> >> overnight”. > >> >> >> >> >> > >> >> >> >> >> Sudip Banerjee, the TMC candidate from North Kolkata, feels: > >> “The > >> >> >> >> >> CPI(M) is now really on the defensive. But no matter how > much > >> it > >> >> >> tries > >> >> >> >> >> to extricate itself from this position, it won’t succeed. It > is > >> >> too > >> >> >> >> >> little and too late.” > >> >> >> >> >> > >> >> >> >> >> But a section of CPI(M) leaders, who are close to Biman > Bose, > >> >> believe > >> >> >> >> >> that this move might put a stop to the erosion of support in > >> the > >> >> >> rural > >> >> >> >> >> areas where in the recent past the Left suffered a series of > >> >> >> electoral > >> >> >> >> >> setbacks. > >> >> >> >> >> > >> >> >> >> >> Last year, after having a major debacle in the panchayat > >> >> elections, > >> >> >> >> >> the party tried to find out the causes of the setback. The > >> review > >> >> >> >> >> brought out the seamy side of the party organisation at the > >> >> >> grassroots > >> >> >> >> >> level, where leaders have amassed huge power in their hands > and > >> >> >> turned > >> >> >> >> >> into tyrants themselves. For the party, it was a revelation, > >> but > >> >> the > >> >> >> >> >> people knew it already through their day to day experiences. > >> >> >> >> >> Incidentally, along that line, a move to sideline some of > those > >> >> >> >> >> leaders in the election was also mooted by the leadership > but > >> >> finally > >> >> >> >> >> discarded after considering it too hasty while finalising > the > >> >> >> >> >> candidates’ list. > >> >> >> >> >> > >> >> >> >> >> According to insiders, by asking the party cadres to be more > >> >> humble > >> >> >> in > >> >> >> >> >> their approach to the people, Biman Bose also wants to send > a > >> >> signal > >> >> >> >> >> to those party satraps to fall in line. > >> >> >> >> >> > >> >> >> >> >> It is to be watched if the measures taken at the higher > level > >> can > >> >> >> >> >> discipline the party organisation, but truly it is a > climb-down > >> >> from > >> >> >> >> >> the position they earlier used to enjoy in the state. > >> >> >> >> >> _________________________________________ > >> >> >> >> >> reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > >> >> >> >> >> Critiques & Collaborations > >> >> >> >> >> To subscribe: send an email to > reader-list-request at sarai.netwith > >> >> >> >> >> subscribe in the subject header. > >> >> >> >> >> To unsubscribe: > >> >> https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > >> >> >> >> >> List archive: < > >> https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> > >> >> >> >> > > >> >> >> >> > >> >> >> > _________________________________________ > >> >> >> > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > >> >> >> > Critiques & Collaborations > >> >> >> > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.netwith > >> >> >> subscribe in the subject header. > >> >> >> > To unsubscribe: > >> https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > >> >> >> > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/ > > > >> >> >> > >> >> > _________________________________________ > >> >> > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > >> >> > Critiques & Collaborations > >> >> > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > >> >> subscribe in the subject header. > >> >> > To unsubscribe: > https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > >> >> > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> > >> >> > >> > _________________________________________ > >> > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > >> > Critiques & Collaborations > >> > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > >> subscribe in the subject header. > >> > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > >> > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> > >> > > _________________________________________ > > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > > Critiques & Collaborations > > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > subscribe in the subject header. > > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> > From pawan.durani at gmail.com Mon Apr 6 14:16:46 2009 From: pawan.durani at gmail.com (Pawan Durani) Date: Mon, 6 Apr 2009 14:16:46 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Fwd: Communists ask for forgiveness for acts committed in past In-Reply-To: <341380d00904060127m417101ber34774cf843a5691a@mail.gmail.com> References: <6b79f1a70904051109l646b64cbnf61e805708d58381@mail.gmail.com> <6b79f1a70904052332o39ffbf81rd0b415f572b3b20b@mail.gmail.com> <341380d00904052337k215afa8ag6486b5a4a7938632@mail.gmail.com> <6b79f1a70904052349h27655c12n672421bcd85e5546@mail.gmail.com> <341380d00904060015y68f55e16taae597784e2b30a2@mail.gmail.com> <6b79f1a70904060035k5d33ea19xb93f0a5d5e54b70d@mail.gmail.com> <341380d00904060057m27bf0558h32311722da30e282@mail.gmail.com> <6b79f1a70904060102l2802889fl480924b942a78916@mail.gmail.com> <341380d00904060125w3482c2aflf6f494b5ec1109b1@mail.gmail.com> <341380d00904060127m417101ber34774cf843a5691a@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <6b79f1a70904060146p4465f094haf574be16eb6f4f3@mail.gmail.com> Dear Anupam , I understand your predicament . It is fashionable not to accept islamic terrorism in Kashmir. Thats a fashion , well adopted by 'sickulars'. pawan On Mon, Apr 6, 2009 at 1:57 PM, anupam chakravartty wrote: > ---------- Forwarded message ---------- > From: anupam chakravartty > Date: Apr 6, 2009 1:55 PM > Subject: Re: [Reader-list] Communists ask for forgiveness for acts committed > in past > To: Pawan Durani > > yes sir, sure i would have love to learn all about the political turncoats > like you who justify all their actions by changing their political attire > like a bollywood star. but it doesnt suit my taste. although, at least you > are honest that you shifted allegiances for your own cause. i never said i > disrespect the cause of kashmiris especially those who were displaced. but > it is unfortunate, like you, several of them have been misguided to believe > that it is a communal battle. but there are voices independent of these > communal ideas. i was in jammu art college for a month and spoke to several > artists following various faiths. without being biased towards the human > rights abuse in kashmir and cause of the kashmiris who have been displaced, > they were all united against the state policies in dealing with kashmir. > > they did not understand the communal side of the kashmir conflict. they > refused to. they were small in numbers, slightly whimsical about their works > but one voice from jammu and kashmir. i guess that was real. i would love > learn more from them instead of someone trying to educate me about where the > political parties are placed in the ideological spectrum of this country. > > thanks again for saying learn >  anupam > > On 4/6/09, Pawan Durani wrote: >> >> Learn more Anupam.....you need to do that >> >> SFI was about student activism >> Indira Gandhi was a leader >> National Conference was the only party which could have defeated >> Muslim United Front >> Panun Kashmir is my right which needs to be supported by all people >> >> Do you need to learn more ? >> >> God Bless ......atleast you follow a faith... >> >> Pawan >> >> >> On Mon, Apr 6, 2009 at 1:27 PM, anupam chakravartty >> wrote: >> > Dear Pawan, >> > >> > I will be learning about emailing ethics for sure. you see its something >> new >> > to me. >> > >> > But looks like you've been quite a turncoat (if you what that means). you >> > started with SFI, moved to indira gandhi, then national conf, now Panun >> > Kashmir. how long do you plan to stick around with hindutva...trust me >> its >> > in fashion now. ideological/political trends in this country last for >> five >> > years. >> > >> > anyway...i dont intend to hurt your faith or idealogical inclinations. it >> is >> > a request that you should be real about your allegations. Like i dont >> trust >> > the commies, i have the same feeling for saffron. one rejects my faith, >> the >> > other puts a question mark on it by suppressing the true nature of it. my >> > faith is personal. it cannot assume a fanatical form like how various >> > saffron groups. it will contradict what upanishads or the gita says. >> > political form of hinduism is a contradiction to its very foundation. >> there >> > are several persons off all political hues who would agree to this very >> > nature of my faith. now its upto you how you want to manufacture opinion >> > around it. >> > >> > regards >> > anupam >> > >> > On 4/6/09, Pawan Durani wrote: >> >> >> >> Dear Anupam , >> >> >> >> I suggest you learn E-mailing before you blame gmail. I do not like a >> >> personal interaction going public irrespective of whether I am >> >> involved or not. Ethics come with responsibility and that is a word >> >> for you to understand. >> >> >> >> Being critical of 'sickular' also does not make  me a BJP cadre. I >> >> don't mind turning immature to teach some immatures. >> >> >> >> As for me , i would join the party i like some day when i feel . Till >> >> now I am not a member of any. >> >> >> >> I was an activist of SFI many years back in Kashmir , voted for >> >> National Conference when i was very young, Indira Gandhi ji was like >> >> revered like a mother , and I am a supporter of Panun Kashmir cause >> >> and not its member. >> >> >> >> I do not wish to join politics for making 'loads of money' ....the day >> >> I wish .....i would have a red flag in my hand and a false commitment >> >> to labor class and a photo of non Indian on the wall behind the place >> >> i sit. >> >> >> >> Pawan >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> On Mon, Apr 6, 2009 at 12:45 PM, anupam chakravartty < >> c.anupam at gmail.com> >> >> wrote: >> >> > dear pawan, gmail actually offers a direct reply...so unknowingly i >> might >> >> > have sent you the first mail. from the beginning itself i intended to >> >> make >> >> > this conversation public...so the question of ethics doesnt arise >> >> here..if >> >> > it has hurt you, i would blame it on the gmail. >> >> > >> >> > being critical of BJP's policy doesnt make me a red flag. looks like >> you >> >> > are really immature in political debates. why dont you give and do >> some >> >> > party work? its gainful employment..you can make loads of money. >> >> > >> >> > >> >> > >> >> > >> >> > On 4/6/09, Pawan Durani wrote: >> >> > >> >> >> Dear Anupam ji , >> >> >> >> >> >> You are as unethical as any red flag bearer is. >> >> >> >> >> >> You preferred to have an offline conversation with me and suddenly >> you >> >> >> send the whole exchange to a discussion forum. >> >> >> >> >> >> Is this the ethics being taught by your senior comrades ? I pity you >> >> >> for not having learnt basic etiquette. >> >> >> >> >> >> Your motives and conduct stink..... >> >> >> >> >> >> Pawan >> >> >> >> >> >> On Mon, Apr 6, 2009 at 12:07 PM, anupam chakravartty < >> >> c.anupam at gmail.com> >> >> >> wrote: >> >> >> > precisely, this is what you think...now why would BJP call the >> killing >> >> of >> >> >> > muslims an unfortunate incident is what im surprised about? BJP >> >> actually >> >> >> > planned it...n thanks for telling me...if they have the guts >> demolish >> >> an >> >> >> > archealogical site, terrorising innocent people is their second >> >> nature. >> >> >> > >> >> >> > On 4/6/09, Pawan Durani wrote: >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> Yes , 100 crore Indian would fund it. >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> On Mon, Apr 6, 2009 at 11:46 AM, anupam chakravartty < >> >> >> c.anupam at gmail.com> >> >> >> >> wrote: >> >> >> >> > who? atal behari vajpeyee..he is not even there. instead we have >> >> more, >> >> >> >> shall >> >> >> >> > i say a "purified" version? of modi...mr varun gandhi. since u >> seem >> >> to >> >> >> be >> >> >> >> an >> >> >> >> > insider in the BJP, why not tell us who is funding the Ram >> Temple? >> >> >> will >> >> >> >> it >> >> >> >> > be publicly funded... >> >> >> >> > On 4/6/09, Pawan Durani wrote: >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> Anupam Ji , >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> Probably you read only those news item which carry the red flag >> . >> >> Has >> >> >> >> >> not the BJP also termed Gujarat incident as unfortunate. >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> Pawan >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> On Mon, Apr 6, 2009 at 11:19 AM, anupam chakravartty < >> >> >> >> c.anupam at gmail.com> >> >> >> >> >> wrote: >> >> >> >> >> > at least they acknowledge their acts unlike maya kodnani and >> the >> >> >> >> saffron >> >> >> >> >> > bandwagon who killed so many in gujarat. although its an >> >> >> interesting >> >> >> >> >> piece >> >> >> >> >> > of news. >> >> >> >> >> > anupam >> >> >> >> >> > On 4/5/09, Pawan Durani wrote: >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> http://www.business-standard.com/india/news/cpimdefensive-seeks-forgiveness/354025/ >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> Party cadres told to go to people and seek forgiveness for >> >> their >> >> >> acts >> >> >> >> >> >> committed in the past. >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> The CPI(M) in West Bengal has finally decided to do >> something >> >> >> which >> >> >> >> it >> >> >> >> >> >> had not done in the last three decades: seek people’s >> >> forgiveness. >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> Biman Bose, the state secretary of the ruling party, has >> >> >> repeatedly >> >> >> >> >> >> asked his party cadres to go to people and seek forgiveness >> for >> >> >> their >> >> >> >> >> >> acts committed in the past. Earlier, Bose had gone to public >> >> while >> >> >> >> >> >> addressing an election meeting in Purulia, saying that “some >> of >> >> >> our >> >> >> >> >> >> leaders have become arrogant”. Though he did not identify >> any >> >> of >> >> >> >> those >> >> >> >> >> >> “arrogant” leaders, he later pursued the issue in the CPI(M) >> >> state >> >> >> >> >> >> secretariat and Left Front meetings. He also admitted in >> public >> >> >> that >> >> >> >> >> >> he had advised the party cadres to tender an apology to the >> >> people >> >> >> >> for >> >> >> >> >> >> their past arrogance. >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> Following the CPI(M), the Forward Bloc (FB), another Left >> Front >> >> >> >> >> >> partner, has also taken the same approach. Yesterday, at a >> >> meeting >> >> >> of >> >> >> >> >> >> the party’s trade union wing TUCC, FB state secretary Ashok >> >> Ghosh >> >> >> >> >> >> urged the cadres not to show arrogance in their behaviour >> >> towards >> >> >> >> >> >> people and also to seek forgiveness for their past acts, if >> >> any. >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> In other words, this is an admission from the top leaders >> that >> >> >> three >> >> >> >> >> >> decades of uninterrupted power has created a class of >> arrogant >> >> >> >> leaders >> >> >> >> >> >> and cadres which in turn is pushing the people away from the >> >> Left. >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> Gurudas Dasgupta, the CPI MP from Bengal who is now busy >> >> fighting >> >> >> >> >> >> another electoral battle from Ghatal (after the delimitation >> >> >> process, >> >> >> >> >> >> the old Panskura constituency has been renamed as Ghatal), >> >> feels >> >> >> this >> >> >> >> >> >> is good tactical move. “It is a defensive game, where >> defence >> >> is >> >> >> the >> >> >> >> >> >> best offence,” he says. >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> But the Opposition detects a streak of nervousness in these >> >> >> campaign >> >> >> >> >> >> tactics. Congress leader Manas Bhuian is convinced that the >> >> >> “CPI(M) >> >> >> >> >> >> now is nervous. It could read the writing on the wall and >> that >> >> >> forced >> >> >> >> >> >> it to change the tactic. But power has gone to their head. >> They >> >> >> are >> >> >> >> >> >> giddy with success and for that they can’t change their >> >> attitude >> >> >> >> >> >> overnight”. >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> Sudip Banerjee, the TMC candidate from North Kolkata, feels: >> >> “The >> >> >> >> >> >> CPI(M) is now really on the defensive. But no matter how >> much >> >> it >> >> >> >> tries >> >> >> >> >> >> to extricate itself from this position, it won’t succeed. It >> is >> >> >> too >> >> >> >> >> >> little and too late.” >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> But a section of CPI(M) leaders, who are close to Biman >> Bose, >> >> >> believe >> >> >> >> >> >> that this move might put a stop to the erosion of support in >> >> the >> >> >> >> rural >> >> >> >> >> >> areas where in the recent past the Left suffered a series of >> >> >> >> electoral >> >> >> >> >> >> setbacks. >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> Last year, after having a major debacle in the panchayat >> >> >> elections, >> >> >> >> >> >> the party tried to find out the causes of the setback. The >> >> review >> >> >> >> >> >> brought out the seamy side of the party organisation at the >> >> >> >> grassroots >> >> >> >> >> >> level, where leaders have amassed huge power in their hands >> and >> >> >> >> turned >> >> >> >> >> >> into tyrants themselves. For the party, it was a revelation, >> >> but >> >> >> the >> >> >> >> >> >> people knew it already through their day to day experiences. >> >> >> >> >> >> Incidentally, along that line, a move to sideline some of >> those >> >> >> >> >> >> leaders in the election was also mooted by the leadership >> but >> >> >> finally >> >> >> >> >> >> discarded after considering it too hasty while finalising >> the >> >> >> >> >> >> candidates’ list. >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> According to insiders, by asking the party cadres to be more >> >> >> humble >> >> >> >> in >> >> >> >> >> >> their approach to the people, Biman Bose also wants to send >> a >> >> >> signal >> >> >> >> >> >> to those party satraps to fall in line. >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> It is to be watched if the measures taken at the higher >> level >> >> can >> >> >> >> >> >> discipline the party organisation, but truly it is a >> climb-down >> >> >> from >> >> >> >> >> >> the position they earlier used to enjoy in the state. >> >> >> >> >> >> _________________________________________ >> >> >> >> >> >> reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. >> >> >> >> >> >> Critiques & Collaborations >> >> >> >> >> >> To subscribe: send an email to >> reader-list-request at sarai.netwith >> >> >> >> >> >> subscribe in the subject header. >> >> >> >> >> >> To unsubscribe: >> >> >> https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list >> >> >> >> >> >> List archive: < >> >> https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> >> >> >> >> >> > >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> > _________________________________________ >> >> >> >> > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. >> >> >> >> > Critiques & Collaborations >> >> >> >> > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.netwith >> >> >> >> subscribe in the subject header. >> >> >> >> > To unsubscribe: >> >> https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list >> >> >> >> > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/ >> > >> >> >> >> >> >> >> > _________________________________________ >> >> >> > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. >> >> >> > Critiques & Collaborations >> >> >> > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with >> >> >> subscribe in the subject header. >> >> >> > To unsubscribe: >> https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list >> >> >> > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> >> >> >> >> >> > _________________________________________ >> >> > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. >> >> > Critiques & Collaborations >> >> > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with >> >> subscribe in the subject header. >> >> > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list >> >> > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> >> >> >> > _________________________________________ >> > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. >> > Critiques & Collaborations >> > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with >> subscribe in the subject header. >> > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list >> > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> >> > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with subscribe in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> From c.anupam at gmail.com Mon Apr 6 15:19:20 2009 From: c.anupam at gmail.com (anupam chakravartty) Date: Mon, 6 Apr 2009 15:19:20 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Fwd: Fwd: Communists ask for forgiveness for acts committed in past In-Reply-To: <341380d00904060248q4ce09d08g994b075334cf68cd@mail.gmail.com> References: <6b79f1a70904051109l646b64cbnf61e805708d58381@mail.gmail.com> <6b79f1a70904052349h27655c12n672421bcd85e5546@mail.gmail.com> <341380d00904060015y68f55e16taae597784e2b30a2@mail.gmail.com> <6b79f1a70904060035k5d33ea19xb93f0a5d5e54b70d@mail.gmail.com> <341380d00904060057m27bf0558h32311722da30e282@mail.gmail.com> <6b79f1a70904060102l2802889fl480924b942a78916@mail.gmail.com> <341380d00904060125w3482c2aflf6f494b5ec1109b1@mail.gmail.com> <341380d00904060127m417101ber34774cf843a5691a@mail.gmail.com> <6b79f1a70904060146p4465f094haf574be16eb6f4f3@mail.gmail.com> <341380d00904060248q4ce09d08g994b075334cf68cd@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <341380d00904060249o412af48axec9a780b98948adb@mail.gmail.com> ---------- Forwarded message ---------- From: anupam chakravartty Date: Apr 6, 2009 3:18 PM Subject: Re: [Reader-list] Fwd: Communists ask for forgiveness for acts committed in past To: Pawan Durani Dear Pawan, Dont you think by associating by islam and terrorism, it legitimises these actions taken by one specific group of people akin to the ones who try to represent the same in the name of hindu religion? so that a lay person following one of these particular faith sympathises them? please respond. anupam On 4/6/09, Pawan Durani wrote: > > Dear Anupam , > > I understand your predicament . It is fashionable not to accept > islamic terrorism in Kashmir. > Thats a fashion , well adopted by 'sickulars'. > > pawan > > On Mon, Apr 6, 2009 at 1:57 PM, anupam chakravartty > wrote: > > ---------- Forwarded message ---------- > > From: anupam chakravartty > > Date: Apr 6, 2009 1:55 PM > > Subject: Re: [Reader-list] Communists ask for forgiveness for acts > committed > > in past > > To: Pawan Durani > > > > yes sir, sure i would have love to learn all about the political > turncoats > > like you who justify all their actions by changing their political attire > > like a bollywood star. but it doesnt suit my taste. although, at least > you > > are honest that you shifted allegiances for your own cause. i never said > i > > disrespect the cause of kashmiris especially those who were displaced. > but > > it is unfortunate, like you, several of them have been misguided to > believe > > that it is a communal battle. but there are voices independent of these > > communal ideas. i was in jammu art college for a month and spoke to > several > > artists following various faiths. without being biased towards the human > > rights abuse in kashmir and cause of the kashmiris who have been > displaced, > > they were all united against the state policies in dealing with kashmir. > > > > they did not understand the communal side of the kashmir conflict. they > > refused to. they were small in numbers, slightly whimsical about their > works > > but one voice from jammu and kashmir. i guess that was real. i would love > > learn more from them instead of someone trying to educate me about where > the > > political parties are placed in the ideological spectrum of this country. > > > > thanks again for saying learn > > anupam > > > > On 4/6/09, Pawan Durani wrote: > >> > >> Learn more Anupam.....you need to do that > >> > >> SFI was about student activism > >> Indira Gandhi was a leader > >> National Conference was the only party which could have defeated > >> Muslim United Front > >> Panun Kashmir is my right which needs to be supported by all people > >> > >> Do you need to learn more ? > >> > >> God Bless ......atleast you follow a faith... > >> > >> Pawan > >> > >> > >> On Mon, Apr 6, 2009 at 1:27 PM, anupam chakravartty > > >> wrote: > >> > Dear Pawan, > >> > > >> > I will be learning about emailing ethics for sure. you see its > something > >> new > >> > to me. > >> > > >> > But looks like you've been quite a turncoat (if you what that means). > you > >> > started with SFI, moved to indira gandhi, then national conf, now > Panun > >> > Kashmir. how long do you plan to stick around with hindutva...trust me > >> its > >> > in fashion now. ideological/political trends in this country last for > >> five > >> > years. > >> > > >> > anyway...i dont intend to hurt your faith or idealogical inclinations. > it > >> is > >> > a request that you should be real about your allegations. Like i dont > >> trust > >> > the commies, i have the same feeling for saffron. one rejects my > faith, > >> the > >> > other puts a question mark on it by suppressing the true nature of it. > my > >> > faith is personal. it cannot assume a fanatical form like how various > >> > saffron groups. it will contradict what upanishads or the gita says. > >> > political form of hinduism is a contradiction to its very foundation. > >> there > >> > are several persons off all political hues who would agree to this > very > >> > nature of my faith. now its upto you how you want to manufacture > opinion > >> > around it. > >> > > >> > regards > >> > anupam > >> > > >> > On 4/6/09, Pawan Durani wrote: > >> >> > >> >> Dear Anupam , > >> >> > >> >> I suggest you learn E-mailing before you blame gmail. I do not like a > >> >> personal interaction going public irrespective of whether I am > >> >> involved or not. Ethics come with responsibility and that is a word > >> >> for you to understand. > >> >> > >> >> Being critical of 'sickular' also does not make me a BJP cadre. I > >> >> don't mind turning immature to teach some immatures. > >> >> > >> >> As for me , i would join the party i like some day when i feel . Till > >> >> now I am not a member of any. > >> >> > >> >> I was an activist of SFI many years back in Kashmir , voted for > >> >> National Conference when i was very young, Indira Gandhi ji was like > >> >> revered like a mother , and I am a supporter of Panun Kashmir cause > >> >> and not its member. > >> >> > >> >> I do not wish to join politics for making 'loads of money' ....the > day > >> >> I wish .....i would have a red flag in my hand and a false commitment > >> >> to labor class and a photo of non Indian on the wall behind the place > >> >> i sit. > >> >> > >> >> Pawan > >> >> > >> >> > >> >> > >> >> On Mon, Apr 6, 2009 at 12:45 PM, anupam chakravartty < > >> c.anupam at gmail.com> > >> >> wrote: > >> >> > dear pawan, gmail actually offers a direct reply...so unknowingly i > >> might > >> >> > have sent you the first mail. from the beginning itself i intended > to > >> >> make > >> >> > this conversation public...so the question of ethics doesnt arise > >> >> here..if > >> >> > it has hurt you, i would blame it on the gmail. > >> >> > > >> >> > being critical of BJP's policy doesnt make me a red flag. looks > like > >> you > >> >> > are really immature in political debates. why dont you give and do > >> some > >> >> > party work? its gainful employment..you can make loads of money. > >> >> > > >> >> > > >> >> > > >> >> > > >> >> > On 4/6/09, Pawan Durani wrote: > >> >> > > >> >> >> Dear Anupam ji , > >> >> >> > >> >> >> You are as unethical as any red flag bearer is. > >> >> >> > >> >> >> You preferred to have an offline conversation with me and suddenly > >> you > >> >> >> send the whole exchange to a discussion forum. > >> >> >> > >> >> >> Is this the ethics being taught by your senior comrades ? I pity > you > >> >> >> for not having learnt basic etiquette. > >> >> >> > >> >> >> Your motives and conduct stink..... > >> >> >> > >> >> >> Pawan > >> >> >> > >> >> >> On Mon, Apr 6, 2009 at 12:07 PM, anupam chakravartty < > >> >> c.anupam at gmail.com> > >> >> >> wrote: > >> >> >> > precisely, this is what you think...now why would BJP call the > >> killing > >> >> of > >> >> >> > muslims an unfortunate incident is what im surprised about? BJP > >> >> actually > >> >> >> > planned it...n thanks for telling me...if they have the guts > >> demolish > >> >> an > >> >> >> > archealogical site, terrorising innocent people is their second > >> >> nature. > >> >> >> > > >> >> >> > On 4/6/09, Pawan Durani wrote: > >> >> >> >> > >> >> >> >> Yes , 100 crore Indian would fund it. > >> >> >> >> > >> >> >> >> On Mon, Apr 6, 2009 at 11:46 AM, anupam chakravartty < > >> >> >> c.anupam at gmail.com> > >> >> >> >> wrote: > >> >> >> >> > who? atal behari vajpeyee..he is not even there. instead we > have > >> >> more, > >> >> >> >> shall > >> >> >> >> > i say a "purified" version? of modi...mr varun gandhi. since > u > >> seem > >> >> to > >> >> >> be > >> >> >> >> an > >> >> >> >> > insider in the BJP, why not tell us who is funding the Ram > >> Temple? > >> >> >> will > >> >> >> >> it > >> >> >> >> > be publicly funded... > >> >> >> >> > On 4/6/09, Pawan Durani wrote: > >> >> >> >> >> > >> >> >> >> >> Anupam Ji , > >> >> >> >> >> > >> >> >> >> >> Probably you read only those news item which carry the red > flag > >> . > >> >> Has > >> >> >> >> >> not the BJP also termed Gujarat incident as unfortunate. > >> >> >> >> >> > >> >> >> >> >> Pawan > >> >> >> >> >> > >> >> >> >> >> On Mon, Apr 6, 2009 at 11:19 AM, anupam chakravartty < > >> >> >> >> c.anupam at gmail.com> > >> >> >> >> >> wrote: > >> >> >> >> >> > at least they acknowledge their acts unlike maya kodnani > and > >> the > >> >> >> >> saffron > >> >> >> >> >> > bandwagon who killed so many in gujarat. although its an > >> >> >> interesting > >> >> >> >> >> piece > >> >> >> >> >> > of news. > >> >> >> >> >> > anupam > >> >> >> >> >> > On 4/5/09, Pawan Durani wrote: > >> >> >> >> >> >> > >> >> >> >> >> >> > >> >> >> >> >> >> > >> >> >> >> >> > >> >> >> >> > >> >> >> > >> >> > >> > http://www.business-standard.com/india/news/cpimdefensive-seeks-forgiveness/354025/ > >> >> >> >> >> >> > >> >> >> >> >> >> Party cadres told to go to people and seek forgiveness > for > >> >> their > >> >> >> acts > >> >> >> >> >> >> committed in the past. > >> >> >> >> >> >> > >> >> >> >> >> >> The CPI(M) in West Bengal has finally decided to do > >> something > >> >> >> which > >> >> >> >> it > >> >> >> >> >> >> had not done in the last three decades: seek people’s > >> >> forgiveness. > >> >> >> >> >> >> > >> >> >> >> >> >> Biman Bose, the state secretary of the ruling party, has > >> >> >> repeatedly > >> >> >> >> >> >> asked his party cadres to go to people and seek > forgiveness > >> for > >> >> >> their > >> >> >> >> >> >> acts committed in the past. Earlier, Bose had gone to > public > >> >> while > >> >> >> >> >> >> addressing an election meeting in Purulia, saying that > “some > >> of > >> >> >> our > >> >> >> >> >> >> leaders have become arrogant”. Though he did not identify > >> any > >> >> of > >> >> >> >> those > >> >> >> >> >> >> “arrogant” leaders, he later pursued the issue in the > CPI(M) > >> >> state > >> >> >> >> >> >> secretariat and Left Front meetings. He also admitted in > >> public > >> >> >> that > >> >> >> >> >> >> he had advised the party cadres to tender an apology to > the > >> >> people > >> >> >> >> for > >> >> >> >> >> >> their past arrogance. > >> >> >> >> >> >> > >> >> >> >> >> >> Following the CPI(M), the Forward Bloc (FB), another Left > >> Front > >> >> >> >> >> >> partner, has also taken the same approach. Yesterday, at > a > >> >> meeting > >> >> >> of > >> >> >> >> >> >> the party’s trade union wing TUCC, FB state secretary > Ashok > >> >> Ghosh > >> >> >> >> >> >> urged the cadres not to show arrogance in their behaviour > >> >> towards > >> >> >> >> >> >> people and also to seek forgiveness for their past acts, > if > >> >> any. > >> >> >> >> >> >> > >> >> >> >> >> >> In other words, this is an admission from the top leaders > >> that > >> >> >> three > >> >> >> >> >> >> decades of uninterrupted power has created a class of > >> arrogant > >> >> >> >> leaders > >> >> >> >> >> >> and cadres which in turn is pushing the people away from > the > >> >> Left. > >> >> >> >> >> >> > >> >> >> >> >> >> Gurudas Dasgupta, the CPI MP from Bengal who is now busy > >> >> fighting > >> >> >> >> >> >> another electoral battle from Ghatal (after the > delimitation > >> >> >> process, > >> >> >> >> >> >> the old Panskura constituency has been renamed as > Ghatal), > >> >> feels > >> >> >> this > >> >> >> >> >> >> is good tactical move. “It is a defensive game, where > >> defence > >> >> is > >> >> >> the > >> >> >> >> >> >> best offence,” he says. > >> >> >> >> >> >> > >> >> >> >> >> >> But the Opposition detects a streak of nervousness in > these > >> >> >> campaign > >> >> >> >> >> >> tactics. Congress leader Manas Bhuian is convinced that > the > >> >> >> “CPI(M) > >> >> >> >> >> >> now is nervous. It could read the writing on the wall and > >> that > >> >> >> forced > >> >> >> >> >> >> it to change the tactic. But power has gone to their > head. > >> They > >> >> >> are > >> >> >> >> >> >> giddy with success and for that they can’t change their > >> >> attitude > >> >> >> >> >> >> overnight”. > >> >> >> >> >> >> > >> >> >> >> >> >> Sudip Banerjee, the TMC candidate from North Kolkata, > feels: > >> >> “The > >> >> >> >> >> >> CPI(M) is now really on the defensive. But no matter how > >> much > >> >> it > >> >> >> >> tries > >> >> >> >> >> >> to extricate itself from this position, it won’t succeed. > It > >> is > >> >> >> too > >> >> >> >> >> >> little and too late.” > >> >> >> >> >> >> > >> >> >> >> >> >> But a section of CPI(M) leaders, who are close to Biman > >> Bose, > >> >> >> believe > >> >> >> >> >> >> that this move might put a stop to the erosion of support > in > >> >> the > >> >> >> >> rural > >> >> >> >> >> >> areas where in the recent past the Left suffered a series > of > >> >> >> >> electoral > >> >> >> >> >> >> setbacks. > >> >> >> >> >> >> > >> >> >> >> >> >> Last year, after having a major debacle in the panchayat > >> >> >> elections, > >> >> >> >> >> >> the party tried to find out the causes of the setback. > The > >> >> review > >> >> >> >> >> >> brought out the seamy side of the party organisation at > the > >> >> >> >> grassroots > >> >> >> >> >> >> level, where leaders have amassed huge power in their > hands > >> and > >> >> >> >> turned > >> >> >> >> >> >> into tyrants themselves. For the party, it was a > revelation, > >> >> but > >> >> >> the > >> >> >> >> >> >> people knew it already through their day to day > experiences. > >> >> >> >> >> >> Incidentally, along that line, a move to sideline some of > >> those > >> >> >> >> >> >> leaders in the election was also mooted by the leadership > >> but > >> >> >> finally > >> >> >> >> >> >> discarded after considering it too hasty while finalising > >> the > >> >> >> >> >> >> candidates’ list. > >> >> >> >> >> >> > >> >> >> >> >> >> According to insiders, by asking the party cadres to be > more > >> >> >> humble > >> >> >> >> in > >> >> >> >> >> >> their approach to the people, Biman Bose also wants to > send > >> a > >> >> >> signal > >> >> >> >> >> >> to those party satraps to fall in line. > >> >> >> >> >> >> > >> >> >> >> >> >> It is to be watched if the measures taken at the higher > >> level > >> >> can > >> >> >> >> >> >> discipline the party organisation, but truly it is a > >> climb-down > >> >> >> from > >> >> >> >> >> >> the position they earlier used to enjoy in the state. > >> >> >> >> >> >> _________________________________________ > >> >> >> >> >> >> reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the > city. > >> >> >> >> >> >> Critiques & Collaborations > >> >> >> >> >> >> To subscribe: send an email to > >> reader-list-request at sarai.netwith > >> >> >> >> >> >> subscribe in the subject header. > >> >> >> >> >> >> To unsubscribe: > >> >> >> https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > >> >> >> >> >> >> List archive: < > >> >> https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> > >> >> >> >> >> > > >> >> >> >> >> > >> >> >> >> > _________________________________________ > >> >> >> >> > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > >> >> >> >> > Critiques & Collaborations > >> >> >> >> > To subscribe: send an email to > reader-list-request at sarai.netwith > >> >> >> >> subscribe in the subject header. > >> >> >> >> > To unsubscribe: > >> >> https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > >> >> >> >> > List archive: < > https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/ > >> > > >> >> >> >> > >> >> >> > _________________________________________ > >> >> >> > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > >> >> >> > Critiques & Collaborations > >> >> >> > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.netwith > >> >> >> subscribe in the subject header. > >> >> >> > To unsubscribe: > >> https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > >> >> >> > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/ > > > >> >> >> > >> >> > _________________________________________ > >> >> > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > >> >> > Critiques & Collaborations > >> >> > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > >> >> subscribe in the subject header. > >> >> > To unsubscribe: > https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > >> >> > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> > >> >> > >> > _________________________________________ > >> > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > >> > Critiques & Collaborations > >> > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > >> subscribe in the subject header. > >> > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > >> > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> > >> > > _________________________________________ > > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > > Critiques & Collaborations > > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > subscribe in the subject header. > > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> > From rakesh.rnbdj at gmail.com Mon Apr 6 15:26:25 2009 From: rakesh.rnbdj at gmail.com (Rakesh Iyer) Date: Mon, 6 Apr 2009 15:26:25 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Fwd: Fwd: Communists ask for forgiveness for acts committed in past In-Reply-To: <341380d00904060249o412af48axec9a780b98948adb@mail.gmail.com> References: <6b79f1a70904051109l646b64cbnf61e805708d58381@mail.gmail.com> <341380d00904060015y68f55e16taae597784e2b30a2@mail.gmail.com> <6b79f1a70904060035k5d33ea19xb93f0a5d5e54b70d@mail.gmail.com> <341380d00904060057m27bf0558h32311722da30e282@mail.gmail.com> <6b79f1a70904060102l2802889fl480924b942a78916@mail.gmail.com> <341380d00904060125w3482c2aflf6f494b5ec1109b1@mail.gmail.com> <341380d00904060127m417101ber34774cf843a5691a@mail.gmail.com> <6b79f1a70904060146p4465f094haf574be16eb6f4f3@mail.gmail.com> <341380d00904060248q4ce09d08g994b075334cf68cd@mail.gmail.com> <341380d00904060249o412af48axec9a780b98948adb@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: Dear Pawan and Anupam ji I agree that both of you have divergent views. But these mails now seem to be a fight-for-all campaign. And such campaigns will ensure that both of you would only tend to ridicule each other as the mails continue. I am sorry to say this being younger than both of you, but I request you to at least have an understanding of listening to each other's views, and give replies not with passion, but with patience. After all, not for nothing did Jagjit Singh say in one of his songs: ' Jab Kisi se Koi Gila Rakhna, Saamne Apne Aaina Rakhna'... And I hope that not only you or even me, but the entire nation listens to this song and at least practise it in their lives. It's more than enough to save the world and get it right.... Regards Rakesh PS : Sorry if you find this insulting....I don't mean to do that..... From nagraj.adve at gmail.com Mon Apr 6 15:40:15 2009 From: nagraj.adve at gmail.com (Nagraj Adve) Date: Mon, 6 Apr 2009 15:40:15 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Fwd: Press Statement by Arundhati Roy at Raipur Satyagraha demanding release of Dr. Binayak Sen In-Reply-To: <49dc5bcf0904060146q64e551dm6c7672715364e213@mail.gmail.com> References: <49dc5bcf0904060146q64e551dm6c7672715364e213@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <564b2fca0904060310t33e716c7g7659be2410803e98@mail.gmail.com> Press Statement by Arundhati Roy Issued at the Raipur Satyagraha for the Release of Dr Binayak Sen April 6, 2009 Raipur, Chattisgarh ____________________________________________________________ Dr Binayak Sen has been in prison for 22 months, arrested under one of India’s most draconian laws, the Chattisgarh Special Public Security Act. This Act has such a vague, diffused definition of ‘Unlawful Activity’ that it renders every person guilty unless he or she can prove their innocence. Dr Sen’s bail application was dismissed twice, both times at the very outset, by the High Court of Chattisgarh and by the Supreme Court of India. On neither occasion was there a discussion on the merits of the case. On the 2nd of December 2008 the High Court of Chattisgarh once again turned down his bail application, without a discussion on the merits of the case, saying that there had been no change in circumstances. But there has been a change in circumstances. To begin with, the charge-sheet has been filed. 64 witnesses have been examined by the prosecution. Not one of them has provided legally admissible evidence to support the accusations in the charge-sheet. Even the jail officials, the Superintendent and the Jailer, who were called as witnesses by the Prosecution, have ruled out the possibility of Dr Sen being a carrier of letters given to him by Narayan Sanyal (said to be a senior Maoist leader) who is a high security prisoner in Raipur Jail. (It should be mentioned here that Narayan Sanyal has a medical condition which requires surgical intervention from time to time, which is why the jail authorities permitted Dr Sen to visit him regularly.) That Dr Sen should continue to be in prison when the case against him has almost completely fallen through says a great deal about the very grave situation in Chattisgarh today. There is a civil war in this state. Hundreds are being killed and imprisoned. Hundreds of thousands of the poorest of the poor are hiding in the forests, fearing for their lives. They have no access to food, to markets, to schools or healthcare. The thousands who have been moved into the camps of the government-backed peoples’ militia, the Salwa Judum, are also trapped in sordid encampments, which have to be guarded by armed police. Hatred, violence and brutality is being cynically spread, pitting the poor against the poorest. There is very little doubt that Dr Sen is in prison because he spoke out against this policy of the State Government, because he opposed the formation of the Salwa Judum. His incarceration is meant to silence dissent, and criminalize democratic space. It is meant to create a wall of silence around the civil war in Chattisgarh. It is meant to absorb all our attention so that the stories of the hundreds of other nameless, faceless people - ­those without lawyers, without the attention of journalists - who are starving and dying in the forests, go unnoticed and unrecorded. Tomorrow is World Health Day. Dr Binayak Sen spent the best part of his life working among the poorest people in India, who live far away from the government’s attentions, with no access to clinics, hospitals, doctors or medicines. He has saved thousands from certain death from malaria, diarrhea, and other easily treatable illnesses. And yet, he is the one in jail, while those who boast openly about mass murder are free to go about their business, and even stand for elections. What does this say about us? About who we are and where we’re going? Arundhati Roy From rakesh at sarai.net Mon Apr 6 16:12:02 2009 From: rakesh at sarai.net (Rakesh Kumar Singh) Date: Mon, 06 Apr 2009 16:12:02 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Sambhavana's invitation for a Sitar and Dilruba concert Message-ID: <49D9DC7A.7010301@sarai.net> SAMBHAVANA invites you for a SITAR and DILRUBA Concert by SHRI BALUJI SHRIVASTAVA Internationally Acclaimed, UK based Indian classical musician trained in the Seni Gharana On Saturday, 11th April, 2009, 5:30 P.M. At Tagore Hall, Arts Faculty, (North Campus), Delhi University. Accompanied by Ustad Faiyaz Khan and his son Imran on Tabla. Baluji performs Sitar, Surbahar and Dilruba with equal mastery. His concerts are regularly held across the globe in about 36 countries. He has so far released 6 albums and has performed with various leading Indian and Western musicians, such as Ustad Zakir Hussain, Ustad Faiyaz Khan, Prof. Anindo Chatarji, Pandit Birju Maharaj, Shashwati Sen, Ravindra Jain, George Harison, Paul Mac Cartney from Beatles, Oasis, Kaiser Chiefs, Massive Attack and Kylie Minogue etc. For details, visit www.baluji.com Also performing at: Ajmer (8th April), Lucknow (18th April) and Allahabad (19th April). sambhavana.group at gmail.com Ph: 011-27662347 & 09818193875 From kshmendra2005 at yahoo.com Mon Apr 6 17:10:45 2009 From: kshmendra2005 at yahoo.com (Kshmendra Kaul) Date: Mon, 6 Apr 2009 04:40:45 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Reader-list] The Quran and the west Message-ID: <947285.44556.qm@web57203.mail.re3.yahoo.com> "The Quran and the west"   Friday, March 27, 2009 By Dr Muzaffar Iqbal After a century of concerted efforts to discredit hadith literature as a veritable source of Islam, the Western academia has now diverted its full attention to the Noble Quran. There are, literally, thousands of new graduate students working on various aspects of the Quran at different Western universities. Numerous books are being published on the Quran and there is an increasing number of graduate and undergraduate courses in the department of religious studies specifically devoted to the Book held sacred by one-fourth of humanity. This new attention to the Quran is neither accidental nor incidental; it is also not a well-planned conspiracy; it is simply the most logical outcome of Western attitudes towards Islam and its source material. This new attention to the Quran is not without affinities to certain recent global events which have strained the relationships between Muslims and the West in general. Like the Crusades and the Turkish Wars of the previous centuries, which produced an enormous interest in the Quran in Western Christendom, current global tensions have generated a new round of scrutiny of the Quran by Western thinkers, clergy and academia. These new tensions have also created a certain degree of urgency (and funding) to study the Quran, which is now being seen as the very root of the "Muslim problem," not only by certain European and American politicians but also by some scholars and religious leaders. This perceived problem comes, more specifically, from the Quranic verses on Jihad, which have attracted the attention of many influential politicians and various think-tanks. As a result of fear, misunderstanding, and sheer ignorance, "terrorism" is also being linked to the Quran. Certain Muslim governments have been forced to "expunge" many verses dealing with Jihad from the educational curricula. The vigorous military, political, economic and cultural campaign now underway has, however, not remained in the domain of politics; it has its academic counterpart, just as the Orientalism of yesteryears was not merely an academic exercise. The Quran and the West, one of the first books on the Quran published in the West after the events of Sept 11, 2001, is a case in point. The author, Kenneth Cragg, who "for six decades has been recognised and praised as one of the West's most gifted interpreters of Islam," is pre-occupied with the relevance of the Quran to the events of that day, which he takes for granted as being the work of Muslims who were "inspired by the Quran." While both these premises are doubtful, what is relevant here is the sheer force of these events, leading Western scholars and religious leaders like Cragg to look into the Quran to discover the root of the "inner crisis in the liability of Islam." In his book Cragg oscillates between condemning the "harsh belligerence in the Quran, a strong pugnacity on behalf of faith," and what he calls its "gentler side." Despite his counsel to Westerners to respect the Quran and Muslims, Cragg's own highly charged book is filled with overt and covert insults and disparaging remarks. His book is primarily an attempt to sift and separate apart from the Book of Allah portions that he calls the "acceptable Quran"--the one that has no political content, no theme under the title of Jihad save the jihad bi'l-nafs, a Quran with no role in the shaping of society, for "the political power-exercise only came at all for the briefer Medinan period and had been firmly excluded throughout the defining Meccan years when only the ever prior preaching task was given [to the Prophet]." He does this by making a sharp distinction between the Makkan and Medinan period of the Prophet's life as well Makkan and Medinan surahs--this time in a much harsher manner than he had done in his 1971 work, The Event of the Quran: Islam and Its Scripture. This is, by no means, an isolated example of the Western academic attitude towards the Quran. Historically, the current Western academic attitudes can be traced back to the work of the nineteenth Orientalists and, through them, to the five centuries of discourse on the Quran by Christian polemists-cum-philologists who appeared on the Western academic scene in the fourteenth century, when the Church Council of Vienna, held in 1312, announced the establishment of chairs in Arabic, Greek, Hebrew, and Syriac at Paris, Oxford, Bologna, Avignon, and Salamanca. It is the vast store of Orientalism from which most of the current Western discourse on the Quran derives its kinetic pressure and material resources, although "today an Orientalist is less likely to call himself an Orientalist than he was almost any time up to World War II," as Edward Said had noted in 1978. The contemporary academic discourse on the Quran has re-cloaked itself in new garb in order to distinguish itself from Orientalism proper, but it is unreasonable to assume that any scholarly tradition can dissociated itself from the core values, assumptions and premises of its mother-tradition. Thus, while the current academic writings on Islam are no more the sole dominion of the erstwhile Orientalist, the study of Islam as a subject alongside other religions in the relatively new departments of religious studies, as well as in the older and well-established area study departments and departments of languages and literature at numerous British, European and North American universities, has umbilical links with the Orientalism of yesteryears. A general survey of the contemporary Western academic study of the Quran makes it abundantly clear that it cannot rid itself of the very foundation on which it stands, because, as Edward Said noted, "despite its failures, its lamentable jargon, its scarcely concealed racism, its paper-thin intellectual apparatus, Orientalism [continues to] flourish."   The writer is a freelance columnist. Email: quantumnotes at gmail.com   http://www.thenews.com.pk/daily_detail.asp?id=169303     From kshmendra2005 at yahoo.com Mon Apr 6 17:14:46 2009 From: kshmendra2005 at yahoo.com (Kshmendra Kaul) Date: Mon, 6 Apr 2009 04:44:46 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Reader-list] The Quran and the west: a rejoinder Message-ID: <189218.46783.qm@web57203.mail.re3.yahoo.com> "The Quran and the west: a rejoinder"   Monday, April 06, 2009 By Ayesha Ijaz Khan   As an ardent supporter of the lawyers’ movement since its inception, I was elated to be in Pakistan when chief justice Iftikhar Chaudhry was restored and was keen to write about the positives that presage this auspicious and historic victory. Yet, a recent piece by Dr Muzaffar Iqbal entitled, “The Quran and the west” (March 27) has prompted me to present an alternative view. Dr Iqbal is perturbed by the increasing interest in the Quran by western academics and scholars and sees this as a new form of Orientalism. Although there may be that side to it, Dr Iqbal chooses to completely ignore the research that is being undertaken in the west by Islamic scholars, sometimes in collaboration with Christian academics, leading to greater knowledge and clarity on some verses of the Quran. If, in the west, Islamic scholars, both male and female, are granted the space to openly debate the dictates of Islam and there is sufficient interest in the subject—such that most western universities are bolstering their Islamic studies programmes so that non-Muslims are also encouraged to study the subject—we, as Muslims, should welcome this development, and not be apprehensive of it. As an example, Verse 34 of surah 4 of the Quran has recently been retranslated by Laleh Bakhtiar, an American woman of part-Iranian origin, to provide greater clarity and conform more closely to the moral and legal principles of the Quran and Sunnah. Previously, most translators, including Muhammad Asad and Yusuf Ali, had translated the verse as granting men the authority to beat their disobedient wives after first warning them and then sending them to sleep in separate beds. According to Ms Bakhtiar’s translation, however, the Arabic word daraba (translated previously by men to mean “beat them”) can also be translated as “go away from them.” Though Ms Bakhtiar’s translation has been criticised by some as a “modern-day revisionist report,” critics have been unable to refute the fact that the most common meaning for daraba in Arabic is to separate. Proponents of Ms Bakhtiar’s translation also point to the famous hadith recounted by Hazrat Ayesha in which the Prophet is reported to have said, “The best of you is he who is best towards his wife.” Ms Bakhtiar’s translation has also been accepted by the Islamic Society of North America. Contrast this interpretation of the Quran with Sheikh Syed Mahmud Allusi’s commentary in Ruhul Ma’ani, where he provides the following reasons for when a man may beat his wife, including her “refusal to beautify herself for him,” refusing sex when he asks for it, refusing to pray or perform ritual ablutions, and “if she goes out of the house without a valid excuse.” Sheikh Allusi follows up his reasoning with a set of hadiths of his own. Wife-beating is a serious problem around the world, and far more prevalent in economically disadvantaged households. Pakistan is no exception, where according to reports from the Pakistan Institute of Medical Sciences, a very high percentage of married women report some form of violence. As a society, we must work towards ensuring that such violence directed against women does not have the sanction of the law, and as importantly, does not have the sanction of religion. Therefore, which interpretation of Islam we choose to follow as a society becomes directly relevant and affects societal norms greatly. It is perhaps only in the west where, as a result of economic migration from far-flung and diverse lands, it is possible for disparate Muslim minds to be able to converge and freely discuss religion. In the Gulf countries, where Muslims from various different countries also converge, it is impossible to research Islam meaningfully due to the restrictions on free speech, and also due to the fact that the non-Arab is always looked upon as less knowledgeable than the Arab. It is only in the west, then, that the Ajami and the Arabi are truly on an equal footing and able to engage in thought-provoking debates about how Islam is practised in different parts of the globe, and how it is able to encompass so many different cultures in its fold. While the Quran was revealed in poetic Arabic, in years to come, the most well-researched and easy to follow translations of the Quran will most likely be in English, which has for most purposes become the lingua franca of a global world. Simultaneously, more and more Muslims are looking into alternative interpretations that are better suited to the Internet age that we live in. As Mahathir Mohammed told fellow Muslim leaders at the Islamic summit, “Islam is not just for the seventh century AD. Islam is for all times. And times have changed.” It is therefore hardly a surprise that a recent translation of the Quran, which has emerged from the west, is the work of three translators, two men and a woman, coming from three diverse cultures, Turkey, Saudi Arabia and the United States. I often wondered why there wasn’t collaboration among scholars in translating the Quran. Given the enormity of the exercise, surely it would make sense to have the luxury of consensus when interpreting such a sensitive subject. Although I have not yet gotten my hands on a copy, the website describes the new translation as using “logic and the language of the Quran itself in determining likely meanings, rather than ancient scholarly interpretations rooted in patriarchal hierarchies.” The new translation has been described by Aisha Musa, Assistant Professor of Islamic Studies at Florida International University, as “offering religious rather than secularist challenges to traditional understandings of Islam, whether Sunni, Shia, or academic, on a number of critical issues.” When Muslim civilisation was at its zenith and Andalucia (in present-day Spain) was ruled by the Moors, it was the Christians who aspired for admission at universities in Muslim lands (as opposed to the reverse we see today). Muslims of that time were not insecure about the religion and nor were they hesitant to learn and adopt other cultures into the Islamic realm. There was free flow of information between the Islamic and non-Islamic worlds and a realisation that no race or gender has a monopoly on interpreting Islam. In fact, according to one hadith, Judama bint Wahb al-Asadiyya related that she heard the Prophet say, “I intended to prohibit cohabitation with nursing women until I considered that the Romans and the Persians do it without any injury being caused to their children thereby.” Thus, even the Prophet did not hesitate to learn and adopt from non-Muslims. If Islam is a religion that is to span all continents and transcend the ages, it would make far more sense for it to be tolerant and accepting of varying cultures. If we believe as Muslims that Islam began with Abraham and was perfected along the years through various prophets and messengers of God until the word of God was crystallised in the Quran, then why the knee-jerk reaction of rejecting research simply because it may be emanating from the west? For, as UCLA law professor Khaled Abou El Fadl states in Progressive Muslims, “the emergence of ‘supremist puritanism,’ together with the arguments of Muslim apologists, have ‘fossilised’ Islam, turning it into an untouchable, but also entirely ineffective, beauty queen, simply to be admired and showcased as a symbol, but not to be critically engaged in in its full nuance and complexity.” The writer is a London-based lawyer-turned-political commentator. www.ayeshaijazkhan.com http://www.thenews.com.pk/daily_detail.asp?id=170983   From anansi1 at earthlink.net Mon Apr 6 20:15:04 2009 From: anansi1 at earthlink.net (Paul D. Miller) Date: Mon, 6 Apr 2009 10:45:04 -0400 (GMT-04:00) Subject: [Reader-list] Arundhati Roy on Sri Lanka Message-ID: <30951352.1239029105112.JavaMail.root@elwamui-little.atl.sa.earthlink.net> I just thought I'd pass this on. Paul The Silence Surrounding Sri Lanka By Arundhati Roy Boston Globe March 31, 2009 http://www.boston.com/bostonglobe/editorial_opinion/oped/articles/2009/03/31/the_silence_surrounding_sri_lanka/ NEW DELHI THE HORROR that is unfolding in Sri Lanka becomes possible because of the silence that surrounds it. There is almost no reporting in the international press - or in the mainstream media in India, where I live - about what is happening. From the little information that is filtering through, it looks as though the Sri Lankan government is using the propaganda of "the war on terror" as a fig leaf to dismantle any semblance of democracy in the country and commit unspeakable crimes against the Tamil people. The government is working on the principle that every Tamil is a terrorist unless he or she can prove otherwise, and civilian areas, hospitals, and shelters are being bombed and turned into a war zone. Reliable estimates put the number of civilians trapped at over 200,000. The Sri Lankan army is advancing, armed with tanks and aircraft. Meanwhile, there are reports that several "welfare villages" have been established to house displaced Tamils in the Vavuniya and Mannar districts. The Daily Telegraph in London reports that these villages "will be compulsory holding centers for all civilians fleeing the fighting." Is this a euphemism for concentration camps? Mangala Samaraweera, a former foreign minister of Sri Lanka, told The Daily Telegraph: "A few months ago the government started registering all Tamils in Colombo on the grounds that they could be a security threat, but this could be exploited for other purposes like the Nazis in the 1930s. They're basically going to label the whole civilian Tamil population as potential terrorists." Given the government's stated objective of "wiping out" the Liberation Tigers of Tamil Eelan, this malevolent collapse of civilians and "terrorists" does seem to signal that the government is on the verge of committing what could end up being genocide. According to a United Nations estimate, several thousand people have already been killed. Thousands more are critically wounded. What we are witnessing - or, rather, what is happening in Sri Lanka and is being so effectively hidden from public scrutiny - is a brazen, openly racist war. The impunity with which the Sri Lankan government is able to commit these crimes unveils the deeply ingrained racist prejudice that is precisely what led to the marginalization and alienation of the Tamils of Sri Lanka in the first place. That racism has a long history, involving social ostracization, economic blockades, pogroms, and torture. The brutal nature of the decades-long civil war, which started as a peaceful, nonviolent protest, has its roots here. Why the silence? In another interview, Mangala Samaraweera said, "A free media is virtually nonexistent in Sri Lanka today." He described death squads and "white van abductions," which have made society "freeze with fear." Voices of dissent have been abducted and assassinated. The International Federation of Journalists accuses the government of Sri Lanka of using a combination of anti-terrorism laws, disappearances, and assassinations to silence journalists. There are unconfirmed reports that the Indian government is lending material and logistical support to the Sri Lankan government. If this is true, it is outrageous. What about the governments of other countries? Pakistan? China? What are they doing to help or harm the situation? In Tamil Nadu, India, the war in Sri Lanka has fueled passions that have led to more than 10 people immolating themselves. The public anger and anguish - much of it genuine, but some of it obviously cynical political manipulation - has become an election issue. It is extraordinary that this concern has not traveled to the rest of India. Why is there silence? Given the scale of what is happening in Sri Lanka, the silence is inexcusable. More so because of the Indian government's long history of irresponsible dabbling in the conflict, first taking one side and then the other. Several of us who should have spoken out much earlier, have not done so, simply because of a lack of information about the war. So while the killing continues, while tens of thousands of people are being barricaded into concentration camps, while more than 200,000 face starvation, and a genocide waits to happen, there is dead silence from this great country. It's a colossal humanitarian tragedy. The world must step in. Now. Before it's too late. Arundhati Roy is a novelist based in New Delhi. She is author of "The God of Small Things," and a forthcoming book of essays, "Field Notes on Democracy." From asad_abbasi at hotmail.com Mon Apr 6 20:16:18 2009 From: asad_abbasi at hotmail.com (asad abbasi) Date: Mon, 6 Apr 2009 14:46:18 +0000 Subject: [Reader-list] secularly secular. In-Reply-To: <61164a90904050111raf2d914qb084ce7533ce7db3@mail.gmail.com> References: <61164a90904050111raf2d914qb084ce7533ce7db3@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: Dear rajen, Your idea was interesting but only to the point of its complexity. Not only, as i see it, you posted a very biased view of religions but also that view lacked some common sense. I understand that you said that 1)every individual knows "what is right and what is wrong for him" and 2)happiness comes in society when people practice their rights but at the same time showing respect to others' rights as well. you seem to miss a point, when these two are incompatible. Let’s say when showing respect to other peoples' rights is not ideal for an individual. So that particular individual may violate point 1 or point 2. but as we live in a very unselfless society most people will do what is good for them rather than for themselves. Your point of view is a way very Marxist that people will care for overall welfare of the society rather than maximising their own personal utility. Whether Marxist view is pragmatic is a separate debate but surely as I think our world is no utopia so rights will be violated and they are violated, Individual rights, human rights, property rights, minority rights and many more. At this point 'state' enters. And the role of state is very complicated and we have different sides to this idea. And these are the questions that we need to tackle down. How much of a state should interfere or should it just play a night watchmen role? Will society benefit from secularism (with all its different meanings)? Or shall we follow a religious law? Do religions contradict with moral ethics? With this we can go forward and get something significant, if not for the society, but for our own personal prejudices. warm regards, Asad Date: Sun, 5 Apr 2009 13:41:27 +0530 Subject: secularly secular. From: rajen882uppinangadi at gmail.com To: asad_abbasi at hotmail.com CC: reader-list at sarai.net; aliens at dataone.on It is indeed interesting views about being secular and its hues of definitions. As I see it all faiths are secular, if they are not under control of its clergies.Because all faiths teach us of compassion, empathy, concerns for fellow living beings and good way of life to live ethically and morally correct.All faiths talk of love( not in western meaning of love making) to other s in society, and secular life in democratic rule of governance means all citizens get good governance, right to property and all fundamental rights so that they can be facilitated by good governance to avail all opportunities in life without depriving others of their rights.And that is dharma, or duty to accept rights of others to live as they feel fit, without impinging on others rights in society.Respect to other individuals rights is the duty or dharma as long as it does not hurt the societal peace and harmony, if it does the laws are there to take action, and none can take laws in their hands to correct the deviant behaviour of the few. As we see today, the clergies have bigger role in some faiths, they after prayers provoke the followers of faith into violent acts, only to strengthen their hold on the community so as to deliver votes to the needy who pay the price for such votes, not to community but to these self proclaimed leaders of the community. Thus they become king makers of the community. This is more marked in christian faith and some ects of islamic clergies and we see the taliban and evil effects of such clergies who have no respect for rights of individuals of their own faith.! In christian faith the role of pope onwards is that of a fascist dictator who orders with money power to harvest souls of the poor and convert them with material needs. It only reflects the fact that bad governance, governance of discrimination on caste and faith has made all feel deprived and thus naalism, deviant fanatism of violence is born out of bad governance.Proper implementation of rule of laws will be only method were individuals do not take laws into their own hands at the percieved injustice in governance where the judiciary acts promptly to prosecute the violaters of rule of laws. Any faith helps individual to have good ethical, moral material life, intellectual life and spiritual life at his/her own choice, but clergies mess up the life with fanatism, with their considered dos and donts. Every individual knows what is correct, and what is wrong for him.When an individual respects others rights in practice of his rights, that is happyness for all in society. Regards.. _________________________________________________________________ Share your photos with Windows Live Photos – Free. http://clk.atdmt.com/UKM/go/134665338/direct/01/ From kmvenuannur at gmail.com Mon Apr 6 23:37:30 2009 From: kmvenuannur at gmail.com (Venugopalan K M) Date: Mon, 6 Apr 2009 23:37:30 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] secularly secular. In-Reply-To: <61164a90904060206g436e421fofce5764a10f63577@mail.gmail.com> References: <61164a90904050111raf2d914qb084ce7533ce7db3@mail.gmail.com> <1f9180970904050956v1a8f4764sdd0cff08eaf29309@mail.gmail.com> <61164a90904060206g436e421fofce5764a10f63577@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <1f9180970904061107o3f4a2d37u1da3adeaad5c9839@mail.gmail.com> Dear Mr.Rajen, Just a few lines about your following comments here: > "it (the RSS) has certainly has reservations about the individuals in any faith who betray the national integrity and support outside terrorists by sheltoring them, supporting them and facilitating them, rightly so... >about western and indian concept of love, our subcontinent has Prema, or love as divine, and western concept of love is basically physical, like it or not." Who is there sitting in judgement on the issue of "betraying the national integrity" ? If the judge were myself, I would certainly have identified the RSS as the organization primarily responsible for this; but it depends on whether you or me be the judge. However, to avoid this kind of subjective bias, we have recourse to the Rule of Law and the Secular Constitution of India. Unfortunately, RSS is far from adhering to law and it considers itself above law. It tries to plant such an image in the minds of political renegades, semi-literates, bigots and imbeciles that it has a previleged authority to speak for the entire nation and society. Actually this image is nothing but a propped up one by the predominantly brahmanical media and by the major global players of neo-liberal economic agenda. The so called Western and Indian concepts of love,are not even worthy of any serious debate, except by novices with limited exposure to learning and literature. Again, it is just another a ploy to divide people, and to deny the experience of humans everywhere. You clearly support the logic of Sri Ram Sene here and thus your writing even a thousands of paragraphs against the unlawful activities of Sri Ram Sene simply doesn't help. Lastly, your reference to RSS as an organization having reservations about activities of terrorism is entirely misleading. Not only In Malegav bomb blast but in several anti-muslim and anti-christian campaigns of hate the role of this oganization is just too obvious to be mentioned . In fact, a paricular global agenda of fighting against terrorism is manufactured and thrust on the governments and people everywhere just to find justification in cracking down on elected governments world wide. The ruling classes everywhere subscribe to such view on terrorism even as they keep silence about millions of people being killed in Afghanistan, Iraq, Palestine and everywhere. The real terrorists threatening peace everywhere in the world are those who serve with slavish obedience a US - Israel led militaristic solutions to conflicts created in the first instance by the very same hegemonic powers. RSS has a long history of slavishly serving the anti-people policies of their colonial and neo-colonial masters in alliance with native feudal landlords and kings. On Mon, Apr 6, 2009 at 2:36 PM, Rajen Uppinangadi < rajen882uppinangadi at gmail.com> wrote: > Hi, Venu, > Intolerence personified.? Ofcourse you have your intellect to take your > own decisions and conclusions about the post, but have you not missed the > whole paragraph where my post refers to any form of violence as unlawful, > Rama sena when it indulges in violence it is illegal, unacceptable, so also, > the illegal activities of the preachers who use money power in bad > governance to change the faith of gullible. > > As to RSS if you have wrong perceptions of RSS it is your choice, just like > I too had, but my approach was different, I went and saw the actions of the > RSS and am convinced that the RSS does not hate muslims nor does it dislike > muslims, but it has certainly has reservations about the individuals in any > faith who betray the national integrity and support outside terrorists by > sheltoring them, supporting them and facilitating them, rightly so. > > And lastly about western and indian concept of love, our subcontinent has > Prema, or love as divine, and western concept of love is basically physical, > like it or not. > > Regards. > > > On Sun, Apr 5, 2009 at 10:26 PM, Venugopalan K M wrote: > >> Abhorrent indeed is Mr. Rajen Uppinangadi's (mis)concept of Love,Western >> and Indian! >> >> (Why doesn't he speak about Hindu Talibans , like Sri Ram Sene or the >> like? >> Why doesn't he speak about the perpetual hate agenda of the RSS and its >> parivar? >> Why does he think that every body else in this forum is too dull-witted to >> be able to see through all these games and call a spade a spade?) >> This snobbishness is beyond any limit .. >> Does the sarai postings have sort of moderation policy or not? >> >> Venu. >> On Sun, Apr 5, 2009 at 1:41 PM, Rajen Uppinangadi < >> rajen882uppinangadi at gmail.com> wrote: >> >>> It is indeed interesting views about being secular and its hues of >>> definitions. >>> As I see it all faiths are secular, if they are not under control of its >>> clergies.Because all faiths teach us of compassion, empathy, concerns for >>> fellow living beings and good way of life to live ethically and morally >>> correct.All faiths talk of love( not in western meaning of love making) >>> to >>> other s in society, and secular life in democratic rule of governance >>> means >>> all citizens get good governance, right to property and all fundamental >>> rights so that they can be facilitated by good governance to avail all >>> opportunities in life without depriving others of their rights.And that >>> is >>> dharma, or duty to accept rights of others to live as they feel fit, >>> without >>> impinging on others rights in society.Respect to other individuals rights >>> is >>> the duty or dharma as long as it does not hurt the societal peace and >>> harmony, if it does the laws are there to take action, and none can take >>> laws in their hands to correct the deviant behaviour of the few. >>> >>> As we see today, the clergies have bigger role in some faiths, they after >>> prayers provoke the followers of faith into violent acts, only to >>> strengthen >>> their hold on the community so as to deliver votes to the needy who pay >>> the >>> price for such votes, not to community but to these self proclaimed >>> leaders >>> of the community. Thus they become king makers of the community. >>> >>> This is more marked in christian faith and some ects of islamic clergies >>> and we see the taliban and evil effects of such clergies who have no >>> respect >>> for rights of individuals of their own faith.! >>> >>> In christian faith the role of pope onwards is that of a fascist dictator >>> who orders with money power to harvest souls of the poor and convert them >>> with material needs. It only reflects the fact that bad governance, >>> governance of discrimination on caste and faith has made all feel >>> deprived >>> and thus naalism, deviant fanatism of violence is born out of bad >>> governance.Proper implementation of rule of laws will be only method were >>> individuals do not take laws into their own hands at the percieved >>> injustice >>> in governance where the judiciary acts promptly to prosecute the >>> violaters >>> of rule of laws. >>> >>> Any faith helps individual to have good ethical, moral material life, >>> intellectual life and spiritual life at his/her own choice, but clergies >>> mess up the life with fanatism, with their considered dos and donts. >>> Every >>> individual knows what is correct, and what is wrong for him.When an >>> individual respects others rights in practice of his rights, that is >>> happyness for all in society. >>> >>> Regards.. >>> _________________________________________ >>> reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. >>> Critiques & Collaborations >>> To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with >>> subscribe in the subject header. >>> To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list >>> List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> >> >> >> >> >> -- >> http://venukm.blogspot.com/ >> > > -- http://venukm.blogspot.com/ From kmvenuannur at gmail.com Tue Apr 7 08:30:41 2009 From: kmvenuannur at gmail.com (Venugopalan K M) Date: Tue, 7 Apr 2009 08:30:41 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Arundhati Roy Speaks Up on Binayak Sen: The Farce and Travesty In-Reply-To: <93f8f583-6b96-40c9-8b67-96fd1c16cbfb@s38g2000prg.googlegroups.com> References: <261994.88851.qm@web95213.mail.in2.yahoo.com> <9e2acadd0904060404l6db15eeav5de355c1eb127b5f@mail.gmail.com> <1f9180970904061951i52304a53hfe483ac2290530fd@mail.gmail.com> <93f8f583-6b96-40c9-8b67-96fd1c16cbfb@s38g2000prg.googlegroups.com> Message-ID: <1f9180970904062000n21698f3cr8e1fe03c0253347@mail.gmail.com> ---------- Forwarded message ---------- From: venukm Date: Tue, Apr 7, 2009 at 8:28 AM Subject: Fwd: Fwd: [IHRO] Arundhati Roy Speaks Up on Binayak Sen: The Farce and Travesty To: kmvenuannur at gmail.com "Tomorrow is World Health Day. Dr Binayak Sen spent the best part of his life working among the poorest people in India, who live far away from the government's attentions, with no access to clinics, hospitals, doctors or medicines. He has saved thousands from certain death from malaria, diarrhea, and other easily treatable illnesses. And yet, he is the one in jail, while those who boast openly about mass murder are free to go about their business, and even stand for elections. What does this say about us? About who we are and where we're going?" ---------- Forwarded message ---------- From: Venugopalan K M Date: Apr 7, 7:51 am Subject: Fwd: [IHRO] Arundhati Roy Speaks Up on Binayak Sen: The Farce and Travesty To: zeroneutral 2bigotry Arundhati Roy writes on Binayak Sen April 6, 2009 / Raipur, Chattisgarh Dr Binayak Sen has been in prison for 22 months, arrested under one of India's most draconian laws, the Chattisgarh Special Public Security Act. This Act has such a vague, diffused definition of 'Unlawful Activity' that it renders every person guilty unless he or she can prove their innocence. Dr Sen's bail application was dismissed twice, both times at the very outset, by the High Court of Chattisgarh and by the Supreme Court of India. On neither occasion was there a discussion on the merits of the case. On the 2nd of December 2008 the High Court of Chattisgarh once again turned down his bail application, without a discussion on the merits of the case, saying that there had been no change in circumstances. But there has been a change in circumstances. To begin with, the charge-sheet has been filed. 64 witnesses have been examined by the prosecution. Not one of them has provided legally admissible evidence to support the accusations in the charge-sheet. Even the jail officials, the Superintendent and the Jailer, who were called as witnesses by the Prosecution, have ruled out the possibility of Dr Sen being a carrier of letters given to him by Narayan Sanyal (said to be a senior Maoist leader) who is a high security prisoner in Raipur Jail. (It should be mentioned here that Narayan Sanyal has a medical condition which requires surgical intervention from time to time, which is why the jail authorities permitted Dr Sen to visit him regularly.) That Dr Sen should continue to be in prison when the case against him has almost completely fallen through says a great deal about the very grave situation in Chattisgarh today. There is a civil war in this state. Hundreds are being killed and imprisoned. Hundreds of thousands of the poorest of the poor are hiding in the forests, fearing for their lives. They have no access to food, to markets, to schools or healthcare. The thousands who have been moved into the camps of the government-backed peoples' militia, the Salwa Judum, are also trapped in sordid encampments, which have to be guarded by armed police. Hatred, violence and brutality is being cynically spread, pitting the poor against the poorest. There is very little doubt that Dr Sen is in prison because he spoke out against this policy of the State Government, because he opposed the formation of the Salwa Judum. His incarceration is meant to silence dissent, and criminalize democratic space. It is meant to create a wall of silence around the civil war in Chattisgarh. It is meant to absorb all our attention so that the stories of the hundreds of other nameless, faceless people - those without lawyers, without the attention of journalists - who are starving and dying in the forests, go unnoticed and unrecorded. Tomorrow is World Health Day. Dr Binayak Sen spent the best part of his life working among the poorest people in India, who live far away from the government's attentions, with no access to clinics, hospitals, doctors or medicines. He has saved thousands from certain death from malaria, diarrhea, and other easily treatable illnesses. And yet, he is the one in jail, while those who boast openly about mass murder are free to go about their business, and even stand for elections. What does this say about us? About who we are and where we're going?  Arundhati Roy __._,_.___ -- http://venukm.blogspot.com/ From pawan.durani at gmail.com Tue Apr 7 11:13:19 2009 From: pawan.durani at gmail.com (Pawan Durani) Date: Tue, 7 Apr 2009 11:13:19 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Kashmir Dispute, The Myth - Part VII Message-ID: <6b79f1a70904062243tf3f73e7w54e1e9e5f914405e@mail.gmail.com> Kashmir Dispute, The Myth-VII by MK Teng Gandhi’s press statement administered a jolt to Maharaja Hari Singh. Maharani Tara Devi favoured reconciliation with the Congress leadership. She cautioned Hari Singh against the isolation into which the State was sinking fast. It is a lesser known fact that the Maharani tried to bridge the gulf between Hari Singh and the Indian leaders. Shortly after Gandhi left Kashmir Hari Singh removed Ram Chandra Kak from his office and appointed General Janak Singh, one of his close kin the Prime Minister of the state. Ram Chandra Kak headed the State Government during the last years of the British Raj in India. Kak served the Maharaja with unflinching loyalty and devotion. Kak belonged to the Kashmiri Pandit community in Kashmir, which played a pioneering role in the growth of national consciousness in the State. While in office, Kak acted as an interface for the Maharaja with the British as well the Muslim League, at a time, when the Princes were struggling to place the State in between the British Crown and an independent Indian nation. The political Department of the British Govt. of India, with conrad corfield, a diehard British Civil Service officer, as its head, spared no efforts to assure the Princes that the British would not abandon the Princely India and would ensure the continuity of the treaties between the States and the Crown. Like the other Princes, Hari Singh was suddenly brought on the crossroads, when India was divided and the British Paramountcy was withdrawn. The British refused to continue the protection, the Paramountcy had provided the States and the Muslim League claimed Jammu and Kashmir for the Muslim State of Pakistan on the basis of the Muslim majority of its population. During the days, the future of the constitutional organization of India was taking shape, Ram Chandra Kak was at the Centrestage of the negotiations between the Princes, the British and the Indian leaders. The Princes were not left with the choice to seek a place outside the constitutional organization of the two successor Dominions of India and Pakistan. The undersecretary of the State for India in the British Government, clarified in the British Parliament, during the debate on the Indian Independence Bill, that the British Government would not recognize the States as the Dominions of the Commonwealth nor would extend it recognition to their independence. Kak was no longer relevant in the political context in which Jammu and Kashmir was left with no choice except to join India, the option to accede to Pakistan was not acceptable to Hari Singh or Kak. Hari Singh turned away from the British, when he refused to abide by the advice of the Viceroy of India tendered to him to come to terms with Pakistan. He earned the displeasure of the leaders of the Muslim League, when he refused to grant permission to Mohammad Ali Jinnah to visit Jammu and Kashmir, during the days, the transfer of power in India was in process of completion. Jinnah sent several of his emissaries to persuade Hari Singh to accede to Pakistan on conditions which he specified. A second world war veteran Major General Shaukat Hayat Khan, arrived in Kashmir with a peculiar proposal from him. Khan met Hari Singh in his palace. He told the Maharaja that he had been commissioned by Jinnah to convey to the Maharaja that he could lay down any conditions that he chose, to accede to Pakistan and that Pakistan would deposit a huge amount of money in British currency worth hundreds of millions of Sterling Pounds, in the Bank of England, as guarantee against any breach of the conditions laid down by him. Hari Singh was slighted, but he did not lose his poise. He told Shaukat Hayat that he would take a decision on the accession of the State only in consideration of the interests of his subjects. Naseeb Singh, an Army officer, of the Signal Corps, who was in attendance on the Maharaja those days, told the author in an interview: "I heard him (Shaukat Hayat) tell his aides, how strange of the Maharaja it was to have turned down the offer. As he saw me standing bye, he recoiled and fell silent". Thakur Kartar Singh, a close kin of the Maharaja and a former Revenue Minister of the State, told the author in an interview in Jammu. "His Highness was severely intolerant of any suggestion about his relations with Pakistan. He felt hurt by what happened around him. He had given a long rope to Ramchandra Kak. He waited patiently, though that was not in his habit, for an opportunity to save the State from going to Pakistan. Pakistan pressurized him to agree to accede to that country, offering to accept any number of conditions that he would lay to safeguard his interests. But he "withstood all pressures". Hari Singh offered a Standstill Agreement to India as well as Pakistan for which the Indian States Department and the State Department of Pakistan had provided the option. The Indian Government did not take any action on the Standstill Agreement, though it extended the period of accession by two months for both the States - Jammu and Kashmir as well as Hyderabad. Hyderabad was the other Princely State, which did not accede to the Indian Dominion by 15 August 1947. That Pakistan had adopted a policy of confrontation with the State Government was signaled by the formation of the Provisional Government of 'Azad' Kashmir, by pro-Pakistan Muslim flanks and the cadres of the Muslim Conference, at Trad Khel on 30 August 1947. Sardar Ibrahim Khan founder of the Provisional Government of 'Azad' Kashmir, took the salute of a contingent of armed volunteers of the Provisional Government which march passed before him in a military formation. The volunteers were armed with the rifles supplied to them from Pakistan. Hari Singh proclaimed a general amnesty for all political prisoners who were involved in the Quit Kashmir Movement and against whom proceedings were in process in the courts of the state. Bakshi Ghulam Mohammad, the Acting President of the National Conference, who had taken refuge in the British India, during the Quit Kashmir Movement, alongwith other leaders of the National Conference, arrived in Srinagar on 12 September 1947. He received a tumultuous welcome, from the people in Srinagar. The leaders and cadres of the Conference who had gone underground, had already begun to emerge from their underground quarters. Mohi-ud-Din Qara the Head of the War Council, which had been constituted to direct the Quit Kashmir Movement, came out of his underground quarters, alongwith a number of his senior cadres. Among them was Onkar Nath Trisal, a senior communist party activist, who later played a memorable role in the defence of Srinagar, when the invading armies of Pakistan were pouring into its outskirts. Mohi-ud-Din Qara addressed a number of public meetings, where he impressed upon the people of the necessity to maintain intercommunity peace and combat communalism and subversion. While the National Conference leaders and cadres set out to reconstruct the organizational units of the National Conference, which had been battered by the Quit Kashmir Movement, Pakistan launched a surreptitious campaign in the State to unite the Muslims in support of its accession to that country. The leaders and cadres of the Muslim Conference and the sections of the Muslim community which were ideologically committed to the Muslim struggle for Pakistan, though they did not support the Muslim Conference, carried on the campaign with the support of the widespread network of Pakistani agents, spies and intelligence sleuths of the Government of Pakistan which operated underground and in vast numbers, Muslim League cadres and other political activists who had slipped into the state unnoticed. The creation of Pakistan symbolized the realization of the desperation of the Muslim Ummah in India and (a) religious obligation devolved on the Muslims of Jammu and Kashmir to support its accession to Pakistan to consolidate the Muslim power (b) the Muslims of Jammu and Kashmir were part of the Muslim Umah and therefore were bound to Pakistan by the bond of Islam; (c) any deviation from a commitment to the unity of the Muslims of Jammu and Kashmir would be an un-Islamic act. The National Conference had spearheaded the Muslim struggle for liberation from the Dogra Rule and now the only option for the leaders and National Conference was to join the struggle for the unification of the State with Pakistan (d) India and the Hindus who formed the main resistance to the struggle for Pakistan, were trying their utmost to scuttle the freedom of the Muslims in the Princely States, where the Muslims were subject to severe repression and the ruler of the State was waiting for an opportunity to join India, scuttle the freedom of the Muslims and perpetuate his power (e) the Muslim struggle for Pakistan was not against the Maharaja and the Muslims of the State had assured him that they would recognize him as the constitutional head of the State if he opted for Pakistan; (f) the National Conference and its cadres and supporters would be accommodated in the Muslim commonwealth of Pakistan on the basis of equality and brotherhood enjoined by Islam upon all the Muslims irrespective of their language and the region which they inhabited (g) any differences between the National Conference leadership and the Muslim leadership of the people of Pakistan could be settled mutually and (h) the Muslims of Jammu and Kashmir had to stand united in the struggle for Pakistan in view of the efforts the enemies of Islam were making in India to impair the unity of the Muslims. The police intelligence of the State reported that it had received information about an underground cell, involved in the raising of a militia, the Muslim Guard, to defend the struggle for Pakistan against any police or military action the State Government resorted to. A woman volunteer of Pakistan was charged with the tasks of recruitment of local Muslim volunteers to the ranks of the Muslims guard. The intelligence report about the Muslim Guard reached the State Government and a summary of the report was sent to Hari Singh as well. As usual, Hari Singh sent it to the State archives. But no action was taken against the sabotage planned by the enemy agents to foment a rebellion in the State, probably to coincide with the invasion of State Pakistan was secretly planning. The Indian leaders took little notice of the developments in the State. The States’ Minister wrote a cryptic letter to Hari Singh, imploring the Maharaja to bring all punitive measures against the National Conference to an end, release the Conference leaders and cadres from imprisonment and seek their cooperation to meet the challenge the State was faced with. On September 3, 1947, an intelligence signal was received in the Army headquarters at Delhi, that armed infiltrators of Pakistan had raided a border outpost, three miles inside the state territory. The signal with the staggering import evoked response from the Indian Government. The Indian leaders received information about the border raids and the heavy damage to life and property the Hindus and the Sikhs suffered in the border districts of the State. No voice was raised in India against the depredation, the armed infiltrators spread in the border districts of the State.  - (To be continued) Note: The Article, in this series are based upon documentary sources in the Indian Archives, Archives of the Jammu and Kashmir State, Sardar Patel Papers; documents and Papers in Sapru House Library, Indian Council of World Affairs, New Delhi, Contemporary Newspaper Files and Interview. Source: Kashmir Sentinel, a Panun Kashmir publication From rajen882uppinangadi at gmail.com Tue Apr 7 14:13:26 2009 From: rajen882uppinangadi at gmail.com (Rajen Uppinangadi) Date: Tue, 7 Apr 2009 14:13:26 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] secularly secular Message-ID: <61164a90904070143o3c9dea83m87c6b815975d2784@mail.gmail.com> Anupam, thanks for the response, but the individuals mentioned by you are not clergies, they are fake godmen, who sell spiritual wealth for material wealth.!You may also note the role of another politically sponsored fake guru, baba ram rahim, Capt. amarinder singh used him for vote banks. As to christianity, recent write up by vicar general, archbishop in Kerala should be eye opener to the society as a whole, and khandamal and many such places have "paid" sevices of nuns and priests churned out of kerala seminaries. Have you heard of Tom Vadakkan, who was nobody, but now media cell in charge for Congress, to understand how religion controls its political leaders. ? Regards. From rajen882uppinangadi at gmail.com Tue Apr 7 14:32:13 2009 From: rajen882uppinangadi at gmail.com (Rajen Uppinangadi) Date: Tue, 7 Apr 2009 14:32:13 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] secularly secular. Message-ID: <61164a90904070202o5a8cda8bk1adab974366aa710@mail.gmail.com> Hi, Asad, I do not know why some people make it more complicated, when living life is so simple with any faitth in ones private domain.Simple fact is when my right to freedom hurts some one else of his faith, that is not good, but unfortunately, with "secular" brand it is seen that it is perfectly acceptable to many to ridicule hindu and his beliefs by some hindus as they would like to be branded as secular, modern and progressive.? As to individuals being selfish, it is alright to be selfish, self preserving but not at the cost of others , that is good ethics., is my take on it. Basic duty is if I can help, I will, but I need not harm others for my faith.? As to laws of the religion, hadith or any other sets of religious laws, they are in the private domain of the folower, societal law, rule of laws set in motion by the acceptance of the nation state and constitution takes precedence over all faith laws, is my take and stand on this matter of laws. Regards. From javedmasoo at gmail.com Tue Apr 7 14:38:42 2009 From: javedmasoo at gmail.com (M Javed) Date: Tue, 7 Apr 2009 14:38:42 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] An Appeal on the eve of Forthcoming Elections Message-ID: An Appeal on the eve of Forthcoming Elections In recent months and years, we have seen the true face of the BJP and Shiv Sena. First, the nation was shocked to discover that a whole string of terrorist attacks, some of which had previously been attributed to jihadi groups, had been committed by Hindutva terrorists. This came to light during investigations into the Malegaon blast of September 2008 led by ATS Chief Hemant Karkare. The perpetrators included Hindu religious figures like Sadhvi Pragyasingh Thakur and Dayanand Pandey, retired military officers, and serving military officer Lt.Col. Srikant Purohit. Instead of denouncing the culprits and demanding that they should be punished, BJP and Shiv Sena leaders launched a hate campaign against the brave and honest police officer who was carrying out the investigations, Hemant Karkare! Then there were the attacks on Christians in Kandhamal and Karnataka. The attacks in Kandhamal in particular went on for months, and even today the communities who have been ethnically cleansed have not been able to go back. This would not have been possible without collusion from the state governments: a BJP ally in one case, the BJP itself in the other. In Karnataka, this was followed by brutal attacks on young women which shocked the nation when they were caught on camera. They were carried out by the same Sri Ram Sene which had attacked churches and Christians, and in one case resulted in the suicide of a young girl. These people have correctly been described as ‘the Taliban of India,’ due to their violent efforts to enforce their intolerant and narrow-minded version of a religion and culture. As usual, the BJP spoke in two tongues about these attacks. But actions speak louder than words. The fact that such attacks could take place in a BJP-ruled state without any action being taken against the criminals showed that the party was hand-in-glove with them. The latest scandal is the hate speech of Varun Gandhi. It is clear for anyone who has brains that he actually spoke the words on the tape, and is only claiming that they were doctored so that he can get away with his criminal words, knowing that legal action against him cannot be completed before the elections. Maneka Gandhi made a shameless attempt to start a communal riot by alleging that a Muslim police officer was responsible for the firing when he was not even present, and alleged ‘genocide’ when not a single person was killed! It just shows that Varun learned his communalism as well as his habit of lying from his mother. Again, the BJP has supported him. Why should we be surprised? Their Prime Ministerial candidate, L.K.Advani, used the same kind of language in the build-up to the demolition of the Babri Masjid in 1992 and the horrific anti-Muslim massacres which followed. Narendra Modi, who is widely seen as the BJP’s future Prime Ministerial candidate, used the same language to whip up hatred against Muslims after the Godhra tragedy in 2002, resulting in the shameful mass rapes and murders that followed in Gujarat. The BJP’s method of ‘fighting terrorism’ is well illustrated in Chhattisgarh. In the name of fighting Maoist terrorists, the BJP state government there has set up an illegal paramilitary organisation, Salwa Judum, which is engaged in raping and killing innocent women, men and children, burning their houses, evicting them from their villages, and putting them into prison camps where they are deprived of their freedom. The state government has put Binayak Sen, a doctor who has dedicated his life to providing health care to poor people, in jail for almost two years, simply because he protested against this brutal treatment of the villagers. In the name of fighting terrorism, the state itself is engaged in terrorism! The BJP aims to divide the country, and thus to destroy it. They have no positive programme to offer: only hatred and violence. We are very lucky they were not in power when the terrorist attacks on Mumbai took place on 26 November last year. What would their reponse have been? In the name of being ‘tough on terror,’ they would have bombed Pakistan. By now we would have been in the middle of a war. The economy would have collapsed, and security would have fallen drastically, as Pakistani terrorist groups targeted India even more. In India, money for employment programmes, infrastructure, health care, education and welfare, which ought to be increased, would have fallen still further as more funds were put into the military effort. Worst of all, the civilian government in Pakistan might have fallen, giving way to extremist groups, and a nuclear exchange between India and Pakistan would be on the cards, destroying millions of lives of both sides of the border. We simply cannot afford to have such a party in power in our country: one which stands for Talibanisation, intolerance, divisiveness, militarism and war. Therefore we must make sure they do not come to power in the up-coming elections. We appeal to all the citizens that we must defeat the communal forces, BJP and it allies. All India Secular Forum (sent by Ram Punyani) From rajen882uppinangadi at gmail.com Tue Apr 7 15:03:23 2009 From: rajen882uppinangadi at gmail.com (Rajen Uppinangadi) Date: Tue, 7 Apr 2009 15:03:23 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] secularly secular Message-ID: <61164a90904070233r20e7893buf7d82bb3ec9fc67e@mail.gmail.com> Hi, Venu, are you not being the prosecutor and judge while talking about the post and me.? Rule of the laws prevail, neither me nor you are the judges in this matter to decide the acts which are of national betrayal, and acts are seen by society day in and out, stricter compliance is what is needed.And if you are swayed by what some men and women in media with partisan intellect propagate, that does not stand scrutiny of laws. As to your identification of any organisation as anti-national, it holds no water as rule of laws are paramount, not your perceptions. Ofcourse you have every right to express your opinions however lopsided they may be and that is freedom of expression, and healthy debate gets you counter views for the perceptions with other perceptions. As to sheltoring, helping the terror, it is very clear for anyone that outsider can not have much action unless logistical support is extended to such elements in the nation, be it for consideration of money or faith or both. If your perception is that RSS is not compliant to constitution of the nation you have recourse to rule of laws and judiciary. But instead you resort to propagate what your perceptions are without substantial evidence to support is bias at its best.It is expected of you and many such as RSS is serving the society unlike the missions of many other faiths, it has been trying its efforts to unite all in society and remove the hate politics of caste, and most worried are psuedo seculars who have been harvesing votes with commune vote banks of faith and caste.And as a nation we have a long way to go, and these psuedo secularists have one agenda of hate that RSS and BJP is against other faiths, as otherwise their game fails.? Regards. From c.anupam at gmail.com Tue Apr 7 16:12:16 2009 From: c.anupam at gmail.com (anupam chakravartty) Date: Tue, 7 Apr 2009 16:12:16 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] secularly secular In-Reply-To: <61164a90904070143o3c9dea83m87c6b815975d2784@mail.gmail.com> References: <61164a90904070143o3c9dea83m87c6b815975d2784@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <341380d00904070342o2d8052c1q87a4ebcf8ce54bd0@mail.gmail.com> dear rajen, since you are a hindu, try and analyse the sins committed by those who have justified their sins in the name of their faith. you will have better rapport with the gods. you will 10 others standing to critique and analyse their faith too. that's the only way. picking on others' faith is something that doesnt look good. stop doing it for your god sake. I would not like my simple faith in my god to turn into a demon subsuming everything. unlike the politico-religious bigots, i am not insecure of my beliefs. people like advani or varun gandhi are insecure, have nothing to cling on to, and that's why it easier for them to incite hateful feelings and impose the same kind of insecurity on the people. moreover, from their speeches it doesnt look like they are serious about working towards the society as a whole. the BJP manifesto, which claims that it represents the Hindus specifically, concentrates on building a Ram temple in so and so place -- what good this Ram temple would serve to the millions who need better roads, or houses? can u tell me? moreover, this rhetoric about nationalism is also bogus. nationalism for what? you only need nationalism so that an international community recognises you? so basically, i can conclude that this whole hogwash is not to instill some kind of pride among indians but to show the whole world that yes we are indians, although millions die of hunger, riots, dacoities, floods, cold, heat, regionalism, seperatism, domestic violence, rampant corruption. i know it is a cliche for you. thanks anupam P.S.: On 4/7/09, Rajen Uppinangadi wrote: > > Anupam, thanks for the response, but the individuals mentioned by you are > not clergies, they are fake godmen, who sell spiritual wealth for material > wealth.!You may also note the role of another politically sponsored fake > guru, baba ram rahim, Capt. amarinder singh used him for vote banks. > As to christianity, recent write up by vicar general, archbishop in Kerala > should be eye opener to the society as a whole, and khandamal and many such > places have "paid" sevices of nuns and priests churned out of kerala > seminaries. Have you heard of Tom Vadakkan, who was nobody, but now media > cell in charge for Congress, to understand how religion controls its > political leaders. ? > Regards. > From kmvenuannur at gmail.com Tue Apr 7 17:56:37 2009 From: kmvenuannur at gmail.com (Venugopalan K M) Date: Tue, 7 Apr 2009 17:56:37 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] secularly secular In-Reply-To: <61164a90904070233r20e7893buf7d82bb3ec9fc67e@mail.gmail.com> References: <61164a90904070233r20e7893buf7d82bb3ec9fc67e@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <1f9180970904070526g4cc66589y5fe3fc98b3985362@mail.gmail.com> Dear Rajen, I wish I could overcome the 'prejudices' you mentiomned. I would be the happiest person , if I could . Our wishes apart, I would rather welcome your position that neither me nor you have the authority of sitting in judgement and further that we should all be prepared to accept a concept such as the Rule of Law. Your views on terrorism though accepatable otherwise, I can't agree to your implicit suggestion that those serve terrorism are easily identifiable with any particular style of definition of national interest. For example, no doubt you are the one to condemn the recent unlawful activities of Sri Ram Sene. At the same time, you seem to subscribe to a view of love very similar to that of these Senes. It is utterly absurd to state that love is one thing in India and another in Pakistan and yet another in the West. According to your view, love mainly defined by carnality (West) is inferior and that defined by divinity (Indian) is superior. If I am an atheist, and hence, if I don't want to associate my feelings of love with divinity, you can instantly dubb me as an anti-national. That case, I deserve either reform or punishment ! One of the RSS functionaries in Dakshina Karnataka district has reportedly gone on record that women and girls should be cured of their tendency to imitate Western values and hence to become 'immoral', by publicly humiliating them with beating! Going by several newspaper reports, Hindu girls (students) talking with and befriending boys especially of Muslim and Christian communities is much likely to invite such instant punishments by the moral brigade ( goons) watching and their cultural patrons! What is terrorism and what is patriotism, after all? As the former is not just bombblasts and shhot outs perpetrated by unidentified criminals , the latter is also not just rhetoric and jingoism either. Regards, Venu. On Tue, Apr 7, 2009 at 3:03 PM, Rajen Uppinangadi wrote: > Hi, > >  Venu, > >  are you  not being the prosecutor and judge while talking about the post > and me.? Rule of the laws prevail, neither me nor you are the judges in this > matter to decide the acts which are of  national betrayal, and acts are seen > by society day in and out, stricter compliance is what is needed.And if you > are swayed by what some men and women in media with partisan intellect > propagate, that does not stand scrutiny of laws. > >  As to your identification of any organisation as anti-national, it holds no > water as rule of laws are paramount,  not your perceptions. Ofcourse you > have every right to express your opinions however lopsided they may be and > that is freedom of expression, and healthy debate gets you counter views for > the perceptions with other perceptions. > >  As to sheltoring, helping the terror, it is very clear for anyone that > outsider can not have much action unless logistical support is extended to > such elements in the nation, be it for consideration of money or faith or > both. > > If your perception is that RSS is not compliant to constitution of the > nation you have recourse to rule of laws and judiciary. But instead you > resort to propagate what your perceptions are without substantial evidence > to support is bias at its best.It is expected of you and many such as RSS is > serving the society unlike the missions of many other faiths, it has been > trying its efforts to unite all in society and remove the hate politics of > caste, and most worried are psuedo seculars who have been harvesing votes > with commune vote banks of faith and caste.And as a nation we have a long > way to go, and these psuedo secularists have one agenda of hate that RSS and > BJP is against other faiths, as otherwise their game fails.? > > Regards. > -- http://venukm.blogspot.com/ From kmvenuannur at gmail.com Tue Apr 7 18:06:11 2009 From: kmvenuannur at gmail.com (Venugopalan K M) Date: Tue, 7 Apr 2009 18:06:11 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] An Appeal on the eve of Forthcoming Elections In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <1f9180970904070536m4f640ba9lb00a129ecd427838@mail.gmail.com> I like to endorse this appeal in letter and spirit. Thanks, Venu. On Tue, Apr 7, 2009 at 2:38 PM, M Javed wrote: > An Appeal on the eve of Forthcoming Elections > > In recent months and years, we have seen the true face of the BJP and Shiv Sena. > First, the nation was shocked to discover that a whole string of terrorist > attacks, some of which had previously been attributed to jihadi groups, had been > committed by Hindutva terrorists. This came to light during investigations into > the Malegaon blast of September 2008 led by ATS Chief Hemant Karkare. The > perpetrators included Hindu religious figures like Sadhvi Pragyasingh Thakur and > Dayanand Pandey, retired military officers, and serving military officer Lt.Col. > Srikant Purohit. Instead of denouncing the culprits and demanding that they > should be punished, BJP and Shiv Sena leaders launched a hate campaign against > the brave and honest police officer who was carrying out the investigations, > Hemant Karkare! > > Then there were the attacks on Christians in Kandhamal and Karnataka. The > attacks in Kandhamal in particular went on for months, and even today the > communities who have been ethnically cleansed have not been able to go back. > This would not have been possible without collusion from the state governments: > a BJP ally in one case, the BJP itself in the other. In Karnataka, this was > followed by brutal attacks on young women which shocked the nation when they > were caught on camera. They were carried out by the same Sri Ram Sene which had > attacked churches and Christians, and in one case resulted in the suicide of a > young girl. These people have correctly been described as ‘the Taliban of > India,’ due to their violent efforts to enforce their intolerant and > narrow-minded version of a religion and culture. As usual, the BJP spoke in two > tongues about these attacks. But actions speak louder than words. The fact that > such attacks could take place in a BJP-ruled > state without any action being taken against the criminals showed that the > party was hand-in-glove with them. > > The latest scandal is the hate speech of Varun Gandhi. It is clear for anyone > who has brains that he actually spoke the words on the tape, and is only > claiming that they were doctored so that he can get away with his criminal > words, knowing that legal action against him cannot be completed before the > elections. Maneka Gandhi made a shameless attempt to start a communal riot by > alleging that a Muslim police officer was responsible for the firing when he was > not even present, and alleged ‘genocide’ when not a single person was > killed! It just shows that Varun learned his communalism as well as his habit of > lying from his mother. Again, the BJP has supported him. Why should we be > surprised? Their Prime Ministerial candidate, L.K.Advani, used the same kind of > language in the build-up to the demolition of the Babri Masjid in 1992 and the > horrific anti-Muslim massacres which followed. Narendra Modi, who is widely seen > as the BJP’s future Prime > Ministerial candidate, used the same language to whip up hatred against Muslims > after the Godhra tragedy in 2002, resulting in the shameful mass rapes and > murders that followed in Gujarat. > > The BJP’s method of ‘fighting terrorism’ is well illustrated in > Chhattisgarh. In the name of fighting Maoist terrorists, the BJP state > government there has set up an illegal paramilitary organisation, Salwa Judum, > which is engaged in raping and killing innocent women, men and children, burning > their houses, evicting them from their villages, and putting them into prison > camps where they are deprived of their freedom. The state government has put > Binayak Sen, a doctor who has dedicated his life to providing health care to > poor people, in jail for almost two years, simply because he protested against > this brutal treatment of the villagers. In the name of fighting terrorism, the > state itself is engaged in terrorism! > > The BJP aims to divide the country, and thus to destroy it. They have no > positive programme to offer: only hatred and violence. > > We are very lucky they were not in power when the terrorist attacks on Mumbai > took place on 26 November last year. What would their reponse have been? In the > name of being ‘tough on terror,’ they would have bombed Pakistan. By now we > would have been in the middle of a war. The economy would have collapsed, and > security would have fallen drastically, as Pakistani terrorist groups targeted > India even more. In India, money for employment programmes, infrastructure, > health care, education and welfare, which ought to be increased, would have > fallen still further as more funds were put into the military effort. Worst of > all, the civilian government in Pakistan might have fallen, giving way to > extremist groups, and a nuclear exchange between India and Pakistan would be on > the cards, destroying millions of lives of both sides of the border. > > We simply cannot afford to have such a party in power in our country: one which > stands for Talibanisation, intolerance, divisiveness, militarism and war. > Therefore we must make sure they do not come to power in the up-coming > elections. > > We appeal to all the citizens that we must defeat the communal forces, > BJP and it allies. > > All India Secular Forum > > (sent by Ram Punyani) > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with subscribe in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> -- http://venukm.blogspot.com/ From kshmendra2005 at yahoo.com Tue Apr 7 20:03:30 2009 From: kshmendra2005 at yahoo.com (Kshmendra Kaul) Date: Tue, 7 Apr 2009 07:33:30 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Reader-list] From Communists & forgiveness to Kashmir In-Reply-To: <341380d00904060127m417101ber34774cf843a5691a@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <91255.57418.qm@web57203.mail.re3.yahoo.com> Dear Anupam   Some points I would request you to think about.   1. The 'battle' in Kashmir is rooted in and consequent to the "Aazadi" call. It is only the Muslims who subscribe to that "Freedom" call. Not all Muslims of J&K but only some of them. Many of such Muslims are from the Kashmir Division of  J&K.   Unless you disagree with this, would it not be appropriate to recognise this "Aazadi" movement as a 'communal' or rather Islamist movement?   2. We could see justification for such an Islamist (communal) "Aazdi" movement if we could establish that post 1947 there has been a repression of Muslims in J&K or even Kashmir specifically. Can we establish and confirm that?   3. When Pakistan ventured with Operation Gibraltar against India in 1965, it intended to 'liberate' (read include into Pakistan), at the very least the Kashmir Division. It presumed support from the local Muslims. It did not receive that. Pakistan has never forgiven the Kashmiri Muslims for that. It would suggest though that between 1947 and 1965 there was no such 'repression' of Kashmiri Muslims that they would welcome 'Pakistan the Liberator'.   4. What happened in the next 24 years after 1965 that led to the 1989 revolt against India. For one 1972 (creation of Bangladesh happened). Did Pakistan alter it's "liberation of Kashmir" strategies?   5. 1987 saw the formation of the Muslim United Front (MUF). Please note the word "Muslim".  Was this an instigated by Pakistan political formation or is this what had become of the much talked about "syncreticity" of Kashmir? You might also want to look into the constituents of MUF and the history of their political positions.           6. If we take note of a few significant steps that were undertaken in J&K  Post-1947, it would be further difficult to find any justification for the Islamist (communal) "Aazadi" movement:   - Specificity accorded in the inclusion of J&K into India by Article 370 of the Indian Constitution. Protecting the demographic make-up of J&K.   - Agrarian Reforms giving Land to the Tiller, where, other than in rare exceptions it was the Muslims who benefited.   - Pro-Rata allocation of 'seats' on the basis of 'Religion' in Professional Colleges (10%allocated under Open-Merit) where again overwhelmingly if not totally it benefited Muslims.   7. One could not call the "Aazadi" movement an Ethnicity driven movement either since there are at least 4 major ethnic groups in J&K.   It is a battle for sure but not a 'communal' battle. The battle is against a 'communal' "Aazadi" movement.   That said, I would join you and your artist friends in questioning the wisdom of the policies followed by the "State" in J&K. I also have no hesitation in condemning and (as an Indian citizen) declaring totally unacceptable the Human Rights violations indulged in by the Security Forces.     Kshmendra  --- On Mon, 4/6/09, anupam chakravartty wrote: yes sir, sure i would have love to learn all about the political turncoats like you who justify all their actions by changing their political attire like a bollywood star. but it doesnt suit my taste. although, at least you are honest that you shifted allegiances for your own cause. i never said i disrespect the cause of kashmiris especially those who were displaced. but it is unfortunate, like you, several of them have been misguided to believe that it is a communal battle. but there are voices independent of these communal ideas. i was in jammu art college for a month and spoke to several artists following various faiths. without being biased towards the human rights abuse in kashmir and cause of the kashmiris who have been displaced, they were all united against the state policies in dealing with kashmir. they did not understand the communal side of the kashmir conflict. they refused to. they were small in numbers, slightly whimsical about their works but one voice from jammu and kashmir. i guess that was real. i would love learn more from them instead of someone trying to educate me about where the political parties are placed in the ideological spectrum of this country. thanks again for saying learn anupam  From rashneek at gmail.com Wed Apr 8 09:10:25 2009 From: rashneek at gmail.com (rashneek kher) Date: Wed, 8 Apr 2009 09:10:25 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Sri Lanka's lessons for Pakistan by Irfan Hussain(in Dawn) Message-ID: <13df7c120904072040o50708c2ay57373d7896ef38b9@mail.gmail.com> http://www.dawn.com/wps/wcm/connect/dawn-content-library/dawn/the-newspaper/columnists/sri-lankas-lesson-for-pakistan *I was trying to work out how big an area seven square miles is. This is what is left of the state the LTTE wanted to create in the north and east of Sri Lanka. And this is the area in which over 200,000 Tamil civilians are supposed to be crammed into, according to the UN and other humanitarian organisations.* In an impassioned article published in this and other newspapers last week, Arundhati Roy accused the Sri Lankan government of committing possible genocide by not agreeing to a ceasefire, thus endangering the unfortunate Tamils trapped in the fighting. The iconic Indian writer and human rights champion has also alleged that the army is deliberately targeting these people to eliminate them. Harsh words, but are they true? The Sri Lankan government has consistently insisted that it has done everything possible to avoid inflicting civilian casualties, and has repeatedly asked the Tamil Tigers to lay down their arms to avoid further bloodshed. What Ms Roy failed to mention was that the LTTE was deliberately using the trapped civilians as human shields. There have been numerous reports from independent sources, including the UN, that the Tamil Tigers were shooting into groups of fleeing civilians. Many have been killed. In one horrifying incident, a female terrorist blew herself up at a reception centre, killing several Tamils as well as security personnel. While accusing the government of atrocities, Ms Roy was silent about the LTTE’s awful record of violence and human rights abuses. This is the group that pioneered the use of suicide bombing, and has inspired other terrorists by its sheer viciousness. Its worst excesses have been committed against its own people. Tamil families in the North have been forced to hand over one child each to the LTTE; here these children have been indoctrinated and trained into becoming ruthless killers. Civilians are not allowed to leave the areas controlled by the LTTE on pain of death. Dissenting Tamil voices have been systematically silenced. All these excesses have been documented, so to avoid mentioning them is to give a one-sided picture of the conflict. I hold no brief for the Sri Lankan government. Its record on the issue of media freedom has been appalling. And for many years, successive administrations in Colombo have discriminated against Tamils. But the real split between the majority Sinhalese and the minority Tamils began in the Fifties when separate schools were set up for the two communities, and Sinhala was declared the official language. This policy was designed to marginalise the Tamils, who, under the British, had an edge because of their fluency in English. The resultant resentment caused much friction between the two communities, and the current civil war broke out in 1982. Over the years, Prahbakaran, the sinister LTTE leader, eliminated all other Tamil opposition groups, claiming his organisation spoke for all Tamils. But in reality, it remains an undemocratic, brutal gang that has terrorised the very people it purports to represent. And as long as it held wide swathes of territory, it did not feel the need to negotiate seriously. Its leaders ran a state within a state, and were content at being rulers of an impoverished and helpless people. The hundreds of thousands of Tamils in the diaspora, pushed overseas by the fighting, contributed (or were forced to contribute) to the cause. An efficient gunrunning operation kept the LTTE armed and dangerous. However, the balance tilted about three years ago when ‘Colonel Karuna’, the commander of LTTE forces in the east, was persuaded to defect to the government, together with his forces. Simultaneously, sanctions began to bite as Western countries cracked down on LTTE funding and gun-running. Better patrolling by the Sri Lankan navy succeeded in blocking many arms shipments. And the army under General Fonseka, an officer who was almost killed by a suicide bomber a couple of years ago, moved a massive concentration of forces to the north. This combination of overwhelming force and international condemnation of the LTTE has resulted in the present endgame. Observers have been puzzled by the slow rate of progress over the last few weeks. While the official reason given is the desire to minimise civilian casualties, my Sri Lankan friends tell me it’s because President Rajapaksa wants the final victory to coincide with the Sinhalese New Year that falls next week. In fact, last year he made just such a promise to the nation. While many international NGOs and observers have been demanding an immediate ceasefire, the reality is that an army seldom stops when victory is in sight. More importantly, the army’s military successes have been widely welcomed across the country. Even Tamils who live in the tea country in the hills, and in and around Colombo, would like to see the fighting come to an end. Above all, the poor civilians trapped in the war zone would like to see peace finally return to the island. One disturbing element is the establishment of ‘welfare villages’ for the refugees who have managed to escape. Here, they are kept under guard for months while overstretched government agencies make sure no LTTE agents are trying to infiltrate into the rest of the country. Many have accused the government of creating concentration camps, and prolonging the suffering of the refugees. However, it is difficult to see how else the government can defend the country against determined LTTE cadres, given the mayhem suicide bombers have already caused over the years. Most of their victims have been ordinary Sri Lankans, so there is little opposition to these so-called ‘welfare villages’. Years of warfare have driven the two communities apart. Yet, during the four months I spent in Sri Lanka recently, I did not get a sense of any hatred of the Tamils among ordinary Sinhalese. Many friends have expressed their horror at the ongoing violence, and the suffering of the Tamils. Nevertheless, the army’s victories have been greeted with firecrackers across much of the island. Above all, people just want the war to end. Emotionally and economically, they are completely drained by the unending violence. Perhaps there are lessons in this conflict for Pakistan. As the Taliban slaughter their victims at will, we see a nation divided on how to face this existential threat. Many commentators and politicians hedge their condemnation of the killers with ‘yes, but…’ This ambiguity is reflected in our half-hearted approach to combating the extremist menace. In Sri Lanka, opposition parties and the ruling alliance are united in wanting to see an end to the civil war, and have supported the army. There is little doubt that many terrible things have happened in this long and brutal war. But surely a clear-cut result at least holds out the hope for a peaceful resolution; and this in turn could help address the genuine complaints the Tamil population has. Best Regards -- Rashneek Kher http://www.kashmiris-in-exile.blogspot.com http://www.nietzschereborn.blogspot.com From kj.impulse at gmail.com Mon Apr 6 00:30:45 2009 From: kj.impulse at gmail.com (Kavita Joshi) Date: Mon, 6 Apr 2009 00:30:45 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] [DFA NewsLetter] Film screening: Vettaikku Oru Magan (A Son for Hunting) Message-ID: <821019d70904051200x1040adb2j1efa305398391afe@mail.gmail.com> ---------- Forwarded message ---------- Vettaikku Oru Magan (A Son for Hunting) 53 min. DV. Musical. 2008    by Soudhamini At IIC, Lodi Estate, New Delhi on 9th April at 6.30 PM ENTRY IS FREE. ALL ARE WELCOME. In the Indian epic Mahabharata, the tribal hunter Ekalavya is made to forfeit his thumb to establish prince Arjuna’s supremacy in archery. The film re-interprets this story to suggest that Ekalavya surrendered his thumb in a conscious act of disarmament, resulting in greater ecological balance in the world of tribals. Subsequently Arjuna himself, realizing the futility of war at the end of his life, emulates Ekalavya’s gesture, abdicating wordly glory to attain peace and fullness.  This video employs performance idioms from Kerala including  Koodiyattam, Arjuna Nrityam, Ottanthullal Ganam and Kathakali  to convey the story without resorting to dialogue, thus exploring the immense potential of cinema as a visual art. Featuring Margi Madhu, Kurichi Nadesan, Kalamandalam C.K. Gopinathaprabha and others Supported by The Prince Claus Fund for Culture and Development, Netherlands. ‘Soudhamini has created a film where image, imagery and suggestion combine in a unique way …   the viewer leaves the auditorium with a strong imprint on the mind.’ The Hindu, Chennai © Quicksilverfilms 2008 quicksilverfilm AT gmail.com --~--~---------~--~----~------------~-------~--~----~ Please DO NOT REPLY to the sender. To contact the MODERATOR: delhifilmarchive [at] gmail.com To UNSUBSCRIBE: send an email to delhifilmarchive-unsubscribe at googlegroups.com More OPTIONS are on the web: http://groups.google.com/group/delhifilmarchive Our WEBSITE: www.delhifilmarchive.org -~----------~----~----~----~------~----~------~--~--- From info at magiclanternfoundation.org Mon Apr 6 17:13:14 2009 From: info at magiclanternfoundation.org (Magic Lantern Foundation) Date: Mon, 6 Apr 2009 17:13:14 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Inviting you to the 2nd edition of Persistence Resistance: 2009 @17, 18, 19 April Message-ID: Dear Friends, We are happy to invite you for the second edition of the film festival Persistence Resistance: a festival of contemporary political films.The festival note is pasted below. The festival schedule is available at: http://www.magiclanternfoundation.org/Events/Persistence%202009/pr09home.html Dates: April 17-19 Venue: India International Centre, 40 Max Mueller Marg, Lodhi Estate, New Delhi 110003 All welcome. Entry Free If you are in Delhi between 17-19 April 2009, do please visit and attend the festival. Please also circulate the invite to your friends and networks in Delhi who might wish to attend or write about the festival. The Festival Team. The schedule is subjected to last minute changes. Apologies for cross posting. -- --- Magic Lantern Foundation J 1881, Basement, Chittaranjan Park, New Delhi 110019 Ph: +91 11 41605239, 26273244 Email: magiclantern.foundation at gmail.com, underconstruction at magiclanternfoundation.org Web: http://www.magiclanternfoundation.org From contactus at indiaifa.org Tue Apr 7 13:14:39 2009 From: contactus at indiaifa.org (India Foundation for the Arts) Date: Tue, 7 Apr 2009 13:14:39 +0530 (IST) Subject: [Reader-list] Job Call Programme Executive (Code - PE-TIC) Message-ID: <20090407074439.3E2F5372305@md70.mailserve.net> Programme Executive: Theatre Infrastructure Cell Code: PE-TIC The Theatre Infrastructure Cell (TIC) is a joint initiative of India Foundation for the Arts (IFA) and the Navajbai Ratan Tata Trust (NRTT). The TIC broadly envisages the creation of a more facilitative environment for the performing arts in the country. The thrust areas are: a.. To support model projects that demonstrate the best practices in the creation and sustenance of performance infrastructure b.. To build knowledge in the area of performance infrastructure TIC is looking for a Programme Executive: Theatre Infrastructure Cell (Code PE-TIC) who will be responsible for its project development activities. The incumbent will report to the Executive Director of IFA and the Steering Committee of TIC. Key responsibilities: Apart from helping TIC realise its core objectives and engaging with the broader work of IFA, responsibilities would include: a.. Negotiating with performance infrastructure initiatives in order to develop them into fundable proposals b.. Evaluating and monitoring of these projects c.. Managing and disseminating the research outcomes and publications of the Cell d.. Coordinating and managing events, workshops, seminars and other public interfaces of the Cell e.. Creating a resource of people and information that will help TIC realise its objectives f.. Promoting TIC through public consultations, building alliances and collaborating with various stakeholders g.. Reporting and documentation of the Cell for internal and external purposes Job Requirements: a.. A graduate with a minimum of 5 years of relevant work experience b.. Excellent networking skills c.. Excellent written and oral communication skills d.. An understanding of and a sensitivity to the performing arts e.. A background in performance practice and/ or research will be an added qualification Job Location: Bangalore Contract: This is a full time appointment. IFA will initially offer a contract of one year to the successful applicant. The contract may be extended by mutual consent. Remuneration: Between Rs. 3.0 Lakh and Rs. 3.6 Lakh (gross salary) depending on experience. Application: Applicants should submit a detailed C.V., a sample of their writing and a covering letter. The deadline for applications is April 26, 2009. Selected candidates will be called for an interview. Applications should be emailed to contactus at indiaifa.org or posted to: Carol Shatananda Code PE-TIC India Foundation for the Arts Apurva Ground Floor #259, 4th Cross RMV 2nd Stage, 2nd Block Bangalore 560 094 Telephone 080 2341 4681 / 82 India Foundation for the Arts (IFA) is an independent philanthropic organization based in Bangalore. We make grants nationwide in support of arts research and practice, and arts education. Please visit www.indiaifa.org for further information on our mission, objectives and programmes. From turbulence at turbulence.org Mon Apr 6 18:31:42 2009 From: turbulence at turbulence.org (Turbulence) Date: Mon, 6 Apr 2009 09:01:42 -0400 Subject: [Reader-list] [Announcements] Turbulence@PaceDigitalGallery Message-ID: <011e01c9b6b7$d74fee60$85efcb20$@org> Turbulence at PaceDigitalGallery http://www.pace.edu/digitalgallery/ Three works commissioned by Turbulence.org: "Hard Data" by R. Luke DuBois http://turbulence.org/works/harddata/ "School of Perpetual Training" by Stephanie Rothenberg http://turbulence.org/works/perpetualtraining/ "Plazaville" by G.H. Hovagimyan, with Christine McPhee http://turbulence.org/works/plazaville/ April 7 - May 1, 2009 Opening Reception: April 7, 5:00 - 7:00 pm Pace Digital Gallery, 163 William Street, New York City HARD DATA -- by R. Luke DuBois -- is a data-mining, sonification, and visualization project that uses statistics from the American military actions in Afghanistan and Iraq as source material for an interactive audiovisual composition based around an open-source "score" of events. Using Xenakis' understanding of formalized music as a starting point, DuBois draws upon a variety of statistical data ranging from the visceral (civilian deaths, geospatial renderings of military actions) to the mundane (fiscal year budgets for the war) to generate a dataset that can be used for any number of audiovisual compositions. The intention of the project is to recontextualize the formal stochastic music in the context of real-world statistics, and to provide a compositional and metaphoric framework for creating an electroacoustic music relevant and significant to our time. http://turbulence.org/works/harddata/ R. LUKE DUBOIS is a composer, performer, video artist, and programmer living in New York City. He holds a doctorate in music composition from Columbia University and teaches interactive sound and video performance at Columbia's Computer Music Center and at the Interactive Telecommunications Program at New York University. He is best known as a co-author of Jitter, a software suite developed by Cycling'74 for real-time manipulation of matrix data. His music is available on Caipirinha/Sire, Cycling'74, and Cantaloupe music. SCHOOL OF PERPETUAL TRAINING -- by Stephanie Rothenberg -- is an ironic edutainment website that exposes the underbelly and not so glamorous side of the computer video game industry. An animated personal trainer leads eager job seekers through a series of webcam game training exercises for outsourced jobs in digital game manufacturing and global distribution. Classic arcade games such as Dig Dug and Space Invaders are redesigned to train job seekers for positions in mineral mining and printed circuit board assembly. Pushing joystick and mouse aside, the webcam interface utilizes motion detection requiring full range of body motion to play. Through the relationship of physical labor for virtual gain, the reality of the actual physical, labor critical to running virtual worlds is made visible. http://turbulence.org/works/perpetualtraining/ STEPHANIE ROTHENBERG'S interdisciplinary practice merges performance, installation and networked media to create provocative interactions that question the boundaries and social constructs of manufactured desires. She has lectured and exhibited in the US and internationally at venues including the 2008 Sundance Film Festival, 2008 Zer01 San Jose, 2004/2008 ISEA; and the Knitting Factory, NYC. Stephanie received her MFA in 2003 from The Department of Film, Video and New Media at the School of the Art Institute of Chicago. She is currently Assistant Professor of Visual Studies at SUNY Buffalo. PLAZAVILLE -- by G.H. Hovagimyan, with Christine McPhee -- is a new media video artwork based on the classic 1965 movie Alphaville by Jean Luc Godard. Set in 21st century New York City, the scenes from the original Alphaville are re-enacted, interpreted and improvised upon by the artists, actors and videographers. The piece uses the internet as one means of distributing the short video clips. For Pace Digital the scenes will be projected as a randomly assembled movie. http://turbulence.org/works/plazaville/ G.H. HOVAGIMYAN is an experimental artist working in a variety of forms. His work ranges from hypertext works to digital performance art, installations and HD video. CHRISTINA MCPHEE is a media and visual artist whose work reflects on and interprets generative environments at the edge of the urban. She is based in the central coast of California. Current exhibitions include "Twice Upon a Time" at Galerie Andreas Huber Vienna and Silvmernan Gallery, San Francisco. Her new science fiction project "Tesserae of Venus" debuted at Silverman Gallery San Francisco in fall 2008 and in Belfast for the ISEA festival in August 2008. Her work has recently shown at Documenta 12, Lyon Biennial 2007, Bucharest Biennial 3, and Bildmuseet Umea, Sweden. "Hard Data", "School of Perpetual Training" and "Plazaville" are 2008/'09 commissions of New Radio and Performing Arts, Inc., (aka Ether-Ore) for its Turbulence web site. They were made possible with funding from the New York City Department of Cultural Affairs. Jo-Anne Green, Co-Director New Radio and Performing Arts, Inc.: http://new-radio.org New York: 917.548.7780 . Boston: 617.522.3856 Turbulence: http://turbulence.org Networked_Performance Blog: http://turbulence.org/blog Networked_Music_Review: http://turbulence.org/networked_music_review Upgrade! Boston: http://turbulence.org/upgrade_boston New American Radio: http://somewhere.org _______________________________________________ announcements mailing list announcements at sarai.net https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/announcements From amc at va.com.au Tue Apr 7 05:48:49 2009 From: amc at va.com.au (amanda mcdonald crowley) Date: Mon, 6 Apr 2009 20:18:49 -0400 Subject: [Reader-list] [Announcements] Eyebeam Residency Call Message-ID: Eyebeam Residencies Summer / Fall 2009 You've got big ideas. You could use a little time and money, not to mention support and inspiration, to create a visionary project. Apply now for Eyebeam's Summer/Fall 2009 Residency cycle. Residents are granted a $5,000 stipend and 24/7 access to Eyebeam's state of the art digital design and fabrication studios at their Chelsea facility. About the Residency Eyebeam residencies support the creative research, production and presentation of initiatives querying art, technology and culture. The residency is a period of concentration and immersion in artistic investigation, daring research or production of visionary, experimental applications and projects. Past initiatives have ranged from live animation, sound and physical computing works to technical prototypes, installations and tactical media events. Check out what our current and past residents have been doing here: http:// eyebeam.org/people-residents/residents. The ideal resident will both contribute to and benefit from the collective environment at Eyebeam, and will embrace the spirit of openness shared across the organization: open source, open content and open distribution. To promote collaboration and the sharing of diverse skill sets, Eyebeam has established and continues to encourage the formation of research groups that bring together creative practitioners working at Eyebeam as well as expert external participants. New research often leads to public outcomes including seminars, workshops and exhibition. Research groups currently active at Eyebeam include: • Sustainability • Urban Research • Middle Eastern Research • Open Cultures Artists and creative technologists interested in these research areas are particularly encouraged to apply for 2009 residencies, but we are also open to accepting ideas for emerging areas of research. Eyebeam is also seeking proposals from artists whose practices: a) actively engage different community groups, especially youth; b) focus on open source/culture ideologies, including intellectual property, licensing issues and law; and/or c) investigate sustainable models of food production and consumption and the impact of those models on society. Residents are expected to participate in public events including workshops, demonstrations of research in progress, panel discussions, and online releases, in addition to regularly scheduled open studio events. The program term is from the beginning of August to the end of January. Residents will be selected from an open call, based on the quality of the work or research being proposed, the availability of the necessary tools and skills to support the work, and in consideration of the overarching research themes and activities of the organization. Eyebeam is committed to building a diverse creative environment. We recognize diversity as encompassing personal style, age, race, gender, ethnicity, sexual orientation, gender identity, language, physical ability, religion, family, citizenship status, socioeconomic circumstances, education and life experiences. We consequently encourage applications from the broadest possible range of artists and creative technologists to all of our programs. To Apply Applications are accepted via our online application system. We will be hosting a “How To Apply” Forum, in New York City, on April 16 at 7 PM featuring past Eyebeam Resident and recent Residency curatorial panelist Robert Ransick (Bennington College, Vermont) and current senior fellow Steve Lambert (Parsons/The New School and Hunter College). Many of the most frequently asked questions are answered online. Be sure to visit our FAQ for applicants and Equipment Inventory List before you apply. If you have any questions, contact residencyinfo AT eyebeam DOT org. Equipment Inventory List: http://eyebeam.org/get-involved-residencies/equipment-list FAQ for applicants: http://eyebeam.org/get-involved-residencies/faq Go ahead, apply at: http://69.60.21.163/production/onlineapp/join_detail.php? program_id=925081 Requirements Applications received after the deadline of May 15, 2009, will not be accepted. All applications and work samples must be submitted through the online form. No exceptions will be made. Incomplete applications will not be considered. Complete applications must include the following information: • Contact information; • Resume or CV (rtf or pdf doc); • Work samples in the form of URLs or uploaded media; • Answers to all application questions. Please be advised that Eyebeam's online application system allows you to log into your user account to update your application until the final deadline. However, you must enter information into all required fields in order to save your application. -- EYEBEAM 540 W. 21st Street New York, NY 10011, USA http://www.eyebeam.org ///////////////// Founded in 1997, Eyebeam is an art and technology center that provides a fertile context and state-of-the-art tools for digital experimentation. It is a lively incubator of creativity and thought, where artists and technologists actively engage with the larger culture, addressing the issues and concerns of our time. Eyebeam challenges convention, celebrates the hack, educates the next generation, encourages collaboration, freely offers its output to the community, and invites the public to share in a spirit of openness: open source, open content and open distribution. ///////////////// -------------- next part -------------- _______________________________________________ announcements mailing list announcements at sarai.net https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/announcements From sen.gargi at gmail.com Wed Apr 8 11:06:18 2009 From: sen.gargi at gmail.com (Gargi Sen) Date: Wed, 08 Apr 2009 11:06:18 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Persistence Resistance 09 Message-ID: Dear All, I am happy to invite you for the second edition of the film festival Persistence Resistance: a festival of contemporary political films The festival schedule is available at: http://www.magiclanternfoundation.org/Events/Persistence%202009/pr09home.htm l Dates: April 17-19 Venue: India International Centre, 40 Max Mueller Marg, Lodhi Estate, New Delhi 110003 All welcome. Entry Free If you are in Delhi between 17-19 April 2009, do please visit and attend the festival. Please also circulate the invite to your friends and networks in Delhi who might wish to attend or write about the festival. Gargi Sen From asad_abbasi at hotmail.com Wed Apr 8 12:15:09 2009 From: asad_abbasi at hotmail.com (asad abbasi) Date: Wed, 8 Apr 2009 06:45:09 +0000 Subject: [Reader-list] Renegade Gandhi: Diaspora desis react to hate speech Message-ID: Dear All, In his blog in Dawn newspaper, Taimoor Farouk tells the reaction of different communities in canada towards varun gandhi's remarks which made headlines in most parts of the South Asia. http://dawntravelshow.com/dblog/2009/04/06/renegade-gandhi-diaspora-desis-react-to-hate-speech/ Renegade Gandhi: Diaspora desis react to hate speech If you ask Canadian desis about Gandhi, they will think of Mahatma Gandhi or Rahul Gandhi. Chatting with people around Toronto, you’d rarely hear about Varun Gandhi – that is, until recently, when the renegade Gandhi stepped into the spotlight. Over the past few weeks, the Baharatiya Janata Party (BJP) leader Varun Gandhi has sparked controversy throughout the world: first by delivering anti-Muslim hate speeches, then by claiming that they had been doctored, and finally by surrendering and getting arrested on charges held against him by the Indian Election Commission. Indeed, the twenty-something politician is making waves in the media and has outraged India’s religious minorities just weeks before Indian parliamentary elections begin. Growing up in a predominantly Muslim state, I confess that I consider myself fortunate because I don’t really know what it means to be part of a religious minority. In Canada, I rarely think of myself as belonging to a minority because I am surrounded by Muslim Arabs, Iranians and Pakistanis. Most of these people have not heard of Varun’s recent speeches, in spite of the fact that the largest democracy in the world is under threat from intolerance and bigotry, and that too during this divisive election time. Some Canada-based Indians I spoke with were also ignorant of Varun’s stance (in their case, does ignorance translate as callousness?). To be honest, after Varun’s inflammatory speeches were delivered, I tried to imagine the sense of insecurity and anxiety his words must have created for those affected. But it wasn’t until an Indian friend of mine, Ayesha, shared the possible repercussions of the hate speech that I got a glimpse into the gravity of the problem. Ayesha’s foremost concern was about worsening Hindu-Muslim ties, just speaking of which reminded her of the 2002 Gujarat riots. A member of India’s Muslim minority, Ayesha was also fretting about protecting her family and friends from the spread of the BJP’s brand of Hindu nationalism. The online circulation of Varun’s videos, showing him exaltedly speaking of “cutting the throats” of Muslims and mocking their “scary” names, indicates that religious fanaticism has become a norm these days. On his blog, the Canadian writer Ali A. Rizvi suggests that ‘Talibanization [is] going mainstream, to religions beyond Islam.’ He writes: In the Varun Gandhi videos, Hindu extremist groups like the Taliban-inspired anti-statue, anti-woman Sri Ram Sena may feel as if they’ve found a high-profile voice: Varun is the grandson of late Prime Minister Indira Gandhi, and the great-grandson of Jawaharlal Nehru, India’s first prime minister, a declared secularist and atheist who couldn’t have been more removed from his descendant’s crazed religion-fueled nationalist diatribes. The concern expressed by Rizvi is common among the South Asian diaspora in North America and extends to those who do not belong to India’s minority religious groups. Just the other day, I read this letter written by an American Indian, Bhaskar Chaudhry, directed to Varun Gandhi: …Assuming you have but a modicum of intellect, you will soon realize that your mother is from a Sikh family and your paternal grandfather was a Parsi gentleman. You can, of course, still be deeply committed to one religion but please do not insult your family again by acting the way you did. Please recognize that our country’s defining characteristic is diversity. You probably think that this rhetoric may help you win the election but it will definitely not help your party in forming a government at the centre… Even though the ‘defining characteristic’ of Pakistan might not be the same as India’s, over the past few weeks I have seen that the Pakistani diaspora in Canada has been deeply sympathetic towards all of India’s religious minorities, especially Muslims. Even better, I have witnessed that a great many Pakistani Canadians have used these events as a provocation to reflect on what goes on in Pakistan. After all, there are minority religious groups in Pakistan as well, the stories of whom never reach us. _________________________________________________________________ View your Twitter and Flickr updates from one place – Learn more! http://clk.atdmt.com/UKM/go/137984870/direct/01/ From rajen882uppinangadi at gmail.com Wed Apr 8 13:03:46 2009 From: rajen882uppinangadi at gmail.com (Rajen Uppinangadi) Date: Wed, 8 Apr 2009 13:03:46 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] secularly secular Message-ID: <61164a90904080033x15f03fb3q9b6575f19fc55855@mail.gmail.com> Anupam, I respect your point of view on thoughts, I am hindu as I live in this world, by being hindu, I appreciate the fact that GOD is one and the same for all humans, be they of any faith, some may pray to GOD invoking Allah, some invole Jesus and many invoke many different other froms, like Ram, Shiva and Durga and Bhagavathi. The truth of the matter is all this forms are beyond the conceieved perception of GOD, as GOD is omnipresent, omnipotent and omni graceful. These different forms are the needs of those times as they are the forms and avtars of the superbeneficial god who ventured to make humans realise what life of good living is. Be that may, unfortunately, some followers think that only some form of GOD can deliver them to haven, forgetting that it is our actions that enable us to make our life on this earth, hell or heaven for all of us. There is no separate place of hell or heaven some where else, it is here in our living life, that we can make our life and that of others, heavenly or otherwise. The prejudice and pride, the egos and the greed are the ones along with unlimited lust for physical pleasures without any limits that make us demons, not the gods.Any good also within reasonable limits, be it lust, is good, but if the life is only for lust then, even nector in access is poison. A balanced life with material, intellectual and spiritual aspirations is heavenly experience irrespective of ones age. Regards. From kaksanjay at gmail.com Wed Apr 8 16:55:21 2009 From: kaksanjay at gmail.com (Sanjay Kak) Date: Wed, 8 Apr 2009 16:55:21 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] =?windows-1252?q?The_world=92s_cheapest_car=3F?= Message-ID: <5c5369880904080425u627f101ekc3282fb35001100c@mail.gmail.com> While our corporate media goes blue in the face extolling the virtues of the Nano—including something called the people-centered world-view behind it—here is a salutary note from Sunita Narain of the Center for Science & Environment, and Editor of Down to Earth magazine. Sanjay Kak _______________________ Down to Earth - Editorial: The right right by Sunita Narain The world’s cheapest car, the Nano, rolls out in India this week. Manufacturer Tata Motors says it will change the way Indians drive, for the inauguration places the personal car within the reach of people who once could only dream of owning one. Indeed, the Nano has been marketed as an ‘aspiration’- the right of every Indian to a car. No quibble here. There is no question an affordable car is better than an expensive one; or that a small car, being more fuel efficient, is better than a big one. No question, too, that every citizen of India has as much right to a car as every citizen of America, where vehicle numbers are obscene: some 800 vehicles for 1,000 people (old and young) against our measly 7 per 1,000 people (urban and rural). Let me roll out my concerns. The issue is not the Nano. The issue is all cars and whether cars still are the future of the world economy. Over years, in different continents, vehicle manufacturers invented and re-invented this appliance for self-mobility, for different market segments. In India, two-wheeler manufacturers can rightly claim that over the 1980s they, too, provided technology innovation and affordable mobility for vast numbers. They can also claim they were the first to break the class barrier. Then, in the early 1990s, when Sanjay Gandhi’s people’s car, the Maruti 800, hit the roads, gender barriers also fell - this was a car women could drive and it gave new freedoms. No question, therefore, of what Nano will bring to new owners. But this launch comes at a time when the production of personal vehicles itself is becoming old - economy. It is not surprising the car industry has become the first big dinosaur of the 21st century. Every country today is working to bail out its automobile industry. The big four companies are still on the brink of closure. There is huge over -capacity in the world of cars - sales are down and the industry is bleeding. You might think it is a temporary phase: cars will zoom again, as recession blues turn pink. But this is far from the reality. The fact is cars could only make it big in the old economy because they were highly subsidized, or incentivized through cheap bank loans. If people could not afford the next car, the bank worked overtime to make sure the loans kept rolling, even if that eventually broke the bank’s back. But that is the past. The future, too, will not be too different. The bank might recover, but the cost of the fuel to drive the dream vehicle will not. Oil experts will tell you black gold prices will rise again, when the world economy re-boots. Add to this what can only be called the mother of all subsidies - the free-ride personal vehicles have got, in the world, to emit large amounts of greenhouse gases and pump them into a common atmospheric space. As the rights over this ecological commons will be determined, as they must, carbon dioxide emissions from the cars of the rich will have to be limited and taxed. This will cost. It will make driving more expensive. The global automobile industry knows it is not our future. It is our past. Unfortunately, this message has not yet come home. Unlike the car-saturated West, we still have a large number of people who are potential buyers. But the fact is in India, because of the even greater price-sensitivity, personal vehicles are viable only if they are subsidized to the brim. Take the Nano. My colleague Chandra Bhushan has calculated the incentives rolled out by Narendra Modi’s Gujarat government amount to a fat write-off - as much as Rs 50,000-60,000 per this Rs 1 lakh car. In other words, its cost is so low only because the state has doled out a largesse. Every past and present automobile has got this benefit (more or less). We can afford a car because our government pays for it. We can also afford it because we are not asked to pay the price of its running - the tax on cars is lower than what buses pay in our socialist country. We do not pay for its parking, a cost, which, if added, would make us think twice before we bought or drove our new dream vehicle, whatever the variant. As the Nano rolls out, think of how we subsidize the car and tax the bus. Public buses pay taxes as commercial passenger vehicles, each year and based on the number they carry. In many states, they pay over 12 times more tax than cars. Think of the public transport bus service in your city and ask how much of its revenues go in taxes: half, in most cases. Think also that the same Tata company, that has managed to roll out the car of our dreams in record time, does not possess the capacity to build the buses cities need. Such an old-economy approach becomes completely perverse when one considers that already today, and definitely tomorrow, the greater proportion of people who are or will commute are using and will continue to use public transport - a bus or a train. Today, as much as half of rich Delhi takes a bus, and another one-third walk or cycle because it is too poor to even take the bus. Think again about the car inequity in India - 7 per 1000 people. Can the government write off the costs - Nano style - so that all can buy the car? Can the government pay for our parking, our roads and our fuel, so that all can drive the car? If not, then is this the right right at all? The issue, then, is not the right to own a Nano. The issue is the right to a slice of the public subsidy so that everybody has the right to mobility. There is no other right. Read this editorial online: http://www.downtoearth.org.in/cover_nl.asp?mode=1 To comment, write to cse at equitywatch.org -------------------------------------- Also Watch video to find out who wins in the race to emit more http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F7aHCCI45pA -------------------------------------- From rakesh.rnbdj at gmail.com Wed Apr 8 17:01:18 2009 From: rakesh.rnbdj at gmail.com (Rakesh Iyer) Date: Wed, 8 Apr 2009 17:01:18 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] =?windows-1252?q?The_world=92s_cheapest_car=3F?= In-Reply-To: <5c5369880904080425u627f101ekc3282fb35001100c@mail.gmail.com> References: <5c5369880904080425u627f101ekc3282fb35001100c@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: And instead of criticizing such subsidies, we have people who instead justify Modi's far-sightedness in bringing about industrial development to Gujarat. A very important article, and I feel not only this, but other kinds of data regarding pollution need to be brought in, so also the deteriorating effects these private vehicles are having on our health system. It would have been better had the Gujarat government had instead subsidized some public vehicle making plant, as that would have benefited all. Instead our governments are ready to do what the US govt generally does, bend down to the corporates. The day we all lose our money like this, probably doles would be given to people without guarantee to continue this capitalist system. And we will go down the drain sooner or later like the US has if we continue with this. From kshmendra2005 at yahoo.com Wed Apr 8 19:08:16 2009 From: kshmendra2005 at yahoo.com (Kshmendra Kaul) Date: Wed, 8 Apr 2009 06:38:16 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Reader-list] What after MNIC? The MIND, the final frontier. Message-ID: <376728.44175.qm@web57201.mail.re3.yahoo.com>   India developing technology to read terrorist's mind Agencies Posted: Apr 07, 2009 at 1255 hrs   Bangalore In what could help building better strategy for anti-terror mechanism in the country, the Department of Science and Technology is facilitating a group of bright scientists to develop a complex human cognitive technology which would allow reading the mind of a terrorist.   At the same time, scientists are also developing sensors that would detect hidden devices. As many as 30 groups are involved in the initiative, part of homeland security, said Secretary in the Department of Science and Technology, T Ramasami.   The idea is to integrate the technology and sensors to nail down terrorists, he said. The Department is funding the programme, which has been taken up on a consortium model, Ramasami said, adding, he is requesting Indian Institute of Science, Bangalore, to lead the teams.   "People who understand language, linguistics and people who look at nuclear magnetic resonance...they have come together to really understand the human cognition associated with the linguistic language processes in the mind," he said.   "This would really involve people from highly different disciplines including social sciences and humanities to people who understand physics in this mechanism."   http://www.expressindia.com/latest-news/India-developing-technology-to-read-terrorists-mind/444166/   From rahul_capri at yahoo.com Wed Apr 8 19:14:40 2009 From: rahul_capri at yahoo.com (Rahul Asthana) Date: Wed, 8 Apr 2009 06:44:40 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Reader-list] =?utf-8?q?The_world=E2=80=99s_cheapest_car=3F?= In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <213914.70852.qm@web53609.mail.re2.yahoo.com> The writer doesn't take into account the intangibles accruing to Gujarat,Tata and India from this project. --- On Wed, 4/8/09, Rakesh Iyer wrote: > From: Rakesh Iyer > Subject: Re: [Reader-list] The world’s cheapest car? > To: "Sanjay Kak" > Cc: "Sarai Reader List" > Date: Wednesday, April 8, 2009, 5:01 PM > And instead of criticizing such subsidies, we have people > who instead > justify Modi's far-sightedness in bringing about > industrial > development to Gujarat. A very important article, and I > feel not only > this, but other kinds of data regarding pollution need to > be brought > in, so also the deteriorating effects these private > vehicles are > having on our health system. > > It would have been better had the Gujarat government had > instead > subsidized some public vehicle making plant, as that would > have > benefited all. Instead our governments are ready to do what > the US > govt generally does, bend down to the corporates. The day > we all lose > our money like this, probably doles would be given to > people without > guarantee to continue this capitalist system. And we will > go down the > drain sooner or later like the US has if we continue with > this. > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to > reader-list-request at sarai.net with subscribe in the subject > header. > To unsubscribe: > https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: > <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> From kshmendra2005 at yahoo.com Wed Apr 8 20:06:02 2009 From: kshmendra2005 at yahoo.com (Kshmendra Kaul) Date: Wed, 8 Apr 2009 07:36:02 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Reader-list] =?utf-8?q?The_world=E2=80=99s_cheapest_car=3F?= In-Reply-To: <213914.70852.qm@web53609.mail.re2.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <55203.43405.qm@web57204.mail.re3.yahoo.com> Dear Rahul   NANO or no NANO, for many on this List, Gujrat, TATA and India are all a NO-NO in which there cannot be any good aspects.   What has surprised me though is that someone like Sunita Narain (otherwise deserving of admiration) should say something as downright stupid and ill-informed as :   """""" Think also that the same Tata company, that has managed to roll out the car of our dreams in record time, does not possess the capacity to build the buses cities need. """"""   In fact much of the tone and content of this piece by her makes me wonder whether she is going the "BLOWBACK" Arundhati Roy way of display of abject superficiality of intellect. That would be sad.     Kshmendra     --- On Wed, 4/8/09, Rahul Asthana wrote: From: Rahul Asthana Subject: Re: [Reader-list] The world’s cheapest car? To: "Sanjay Kak" , "Rakesh Iyer" Cc: "Sarai Reader List" Date: Wednesday, April 8, 2009, 7:14 PM The writer doesn't take into account the intangibles accruing to Gujarat,Tata and India from this project. --- On Wed, 4/8/09, Rakesh Iyer wrote: > From: Rakesh Iyer > Subject: Re: [Reader-list] The world’s cheapest car? > To: "Sanjay Kak" > Cc: "Sarai Reader List" > Date: Wednesday, April 8, 2009, 5:01 PM > And instead of criticizing such subsidies, we have people > who instead > justify Modi's far-sightedness in bringing about > industrial > development to Gujarat. A very important article, and I > feel not only > this, but other kinds of data regarding pollution need to > be brought > in, so also the deteriorating effects these private > vehicles are > having on our health system. > > It would have been better had the Gujarat government had > instead > subsidized some public vehicle making plant, as that would > have > benefited all. Instead our governments are ready to do what > the US > govt generally does, bend down to the corporates. The day > we all lose > our money like this, probably doles would be given to > people without > guarantee to continue this capitalist system. And we will > go down the > drain sooner or later like the US has if we continue with > this. > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to > reader-list-request at sarai.net with subscribe in the subject > header. > To unsubscribe: > https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: > <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> _________________________________________ reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. Critiques & Collaborations To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with subscribe in the subject header. To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> From rakesh.rnbdj at gmail.com Wed Apr 8 20:19:07 2009 From: rakesh.rnbdj at gmail.com (Rakesh Iyer) Date: Wed, 8 Apr 2009 20:19:07 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] =?windows-1252?q?The_world=92s_cheapest_car=3F?= In-Reply-To: <55203.43405.qm@web57204.mail.re3.yahoo.com> References: <213914.70852.qm@web53609.mail.re2.yahoo.com> <55203.43405.qm@web57204.mail.re3.yahoo.com> Message-ID: Dear Kshamendra jee I am willing to discuss each point with you on which we differ to find out where my notions are wrong, and thereby correct myself. To begin with, I would be very glad if you could specify what is wrong in the particular article? It would be kind of you to mention these in different points, so that we could see where we meet and where we differ. This would strengthen the cause of discussion, and also correct our beliefs if necessary. This message also goes out to all those who have different notions of different things in which I am also interested. I would be glad to do so. Not today though, I have an exam tomorrow. But yes, after 6 pm tomorrow, we can certainly discuss. Regards Rakesh From sidsareen at gmail.com Wed Apr 8 20:19:13 2009 From: sidsareen at gmail.com (siddharth sareen) Date: Wed, 8 Apr 2009 20:19:13 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] =?windows-1252?q?The_world=92s_cheapest_car=3F?= In-Reply-To: <55203.43405.qm@web57204.mail.re3.yahoo.com> References: <213914.70852.qm@web53609.mail.re2.yahoo.com> <55203.43405.qm@web57204.mail.re3.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <516b63a90904080749r3f847747labb0abf64cfe329a@mail.gmail.com> Actually, that particular point is a fairly true reflection of the real state of affairs. Tata and Ashok Leyland are the two major private players in the country who have any capacity whatsoever to build buses, but their plant capacity is severely limited and nowhere near the kind of numbers we'd need, especially if more BRT corridors are to come up and the quantities that would be a requisite for a paradigm shift in urban transport were to be demanded. The possibility has been explored in the past, but there's not much incentive for the companies to develop such capacity, as compared to faster delivery of more cars. Best On Wed, Apr 8, 2009 at 8:06 PM, Kshmendra Kaul wrote: > Dear Rahul > > NANO or no NANO, for many on this List, Gujrat, TATA and India are all > a NO-NO in which there cannot be any good aspects. > > What has surprised me though is that someone like Sunita Narain (otherwise > deserving of admiration) should say something as downright stupid and > ill-informed as : > > """""" Think also that the same Tata company, that has managed to roll out > the car of our dreams in record time, does not possess the capacity to build > the buses cities need. """""" > > In fact much of the tone and content of this piece by her makes me wonder > whether she is going the "BLOWBACK" Arundhati Roy way of display of abject > superficiality of intellect. That would be sad. > > Kshmendra > > > > --- On Wed, 4/8/09, Rahul Asthana wrote: > > From: Rahul Asthana > Subject: Re: [Reader-list] The world’s cheapest car? > To: "Sanjay Kak" , "Rakesh Iyer" < > rakesh.rnbdj at gmail.com> > Cc: "Sarai Reader List" > Date: Wednesday, April 8, 2009, 7:14 PM > > The writer doesn't take into account the intangibles accruing to > Gujarat,Tata and India from this project. > > > --- On Wed, 4/8/09, Rakesh Iyer wrote: > > > From: Rakesh Iyer > > Subject: Re: [Reader-list] The world’s cheapest car? > > To: "Sanjay Kak" > > Cc: "Sarai Reader List" > > Date: Wednesday, April 8, 2009, 5:01 PM > > And instead of criticizing such subsidies, we have people > > who instead > > justify Modi's far-sightedness in bringing about > > industrial > > development to Gujarat. A very important article, and I > > feel not only > > this, but other kinds of data regarding pollution need to > > be brought > > in, so also the deteriorating effects these private > > vehicles are > > having on our health system. > > > > It would have been better had the Gujarat government had > > instead > > subsidized some public vehicle making plant, as that would > > have > > benefited all. Instead our governments are ready to do what > > the US > > govt generally does, bend down to the corporates. The day > > we all lose > > our money like this, probably doles would be given to > > people without > > guarantee to continue this capitalist system. And we will > > go down the > > drain sooner or later like the US has if we continue with > > this. > > _________________________________________ > > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > > Critiques & Collaborations > > To subscribe: send an email to > > reader-list-request at sarai.net with subscribe in the subject > > header. > > To unsubscribe: > > https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > > List archive: > > > > > > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > subscribe in > the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: > > > > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > subscribe in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: > -- Siddharth. From rakesh.rnbdj at gmail.com Wed Apr 8 20:19:38 2009 From: rakesh.rnbdj at gmail.com (Rakesh Iyer) Date: Wed, 8 Apr 2009 20:19:38 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] =?windows-1252?q?The_world=92s_cheapest_car=3F?= In-Reply-To: References: <213914.70852.qm@web53609.mail.re2.yahoo.com> <55203.43405.qm@web57204.mail.re3.yahoo.com> Message-ID: And I certainly hope others can benefit from such discussions as well. From vivek at sarai.net Wed Apr 8 20:45:53 2009 From: vivek at sarai.net (Vivek Narayanan) Date: Wed, 08 Apr 2009 20:45:53 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] =?windows-1252?q?The_world=92s_cheapest_car=3F?= In-Reply-To: <516b63a90904080749r3f847747labb0abf64cfe329a@mail.gmail.com> References: <213914.70852.qm@web53609.mail.re2.yahoo.com> <55203.43405.qm@web57204.mail.re3.yahoo.com> <516b63a90904080749r3f847747labb0abf64cfe329a@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <49DCBFA9.8080608@sarai.net> I thought this earlier editorial by Sunita Narain (see below), might be relevant here. I can't vouch absolutely for these facts and figures yet-- someone might help by citing data from an independent source, or the source of these figures-- but it makes a lot of sense. The so-called buses we have now are apparently just a chassis of a truck with a bus body slapped on. That's why one so often feels, on a city bus anywhere in India, that one is riding in an overgrown truck. Relevant quote from the whole editorial reproduced below: "There are only two real players in the market -- Tata Motors and Ashok Leyland. These companies do not make buses. They manufacture a truck chassis, on which various body builders assemble a bus body. As a result, when the city of Delhi or Ahmedabad places a tender for an urban bus, with improved design for comfort, it does not get many takers. Then, when the city finally does place an order, the manufacturer cannot deliver buses in the quantity and speed required. Delhi placed its first order for some 500 low-floor urban buses over a year ago. It is still waiting for all the buses to be delivered by Tata Motors. The company says it can manufacture only 100 units a month in its newly developed facility in Lucknow. Now Delhi has placed another order for over 2,500 buses, this time dividing it between Tata and Leyland. Leyland says it will begin delivery some time next year and will also be able to manufacture only 100 units each month. Delhi adds 1,000 vehicles each day on to its roads. It desperately needs to overhaul its entire public transport system, now handled by individual operators. In this situation, it will need to order another 6,000-odd buses. But who will make them?" Anyway my recurring nightmare lately is of a city jam-packed with hundreds of thousands nanos crawling into every available space, making it hard to breathe, and all of them saying in uneven chorus, like nasty and persistent alien creatures, in a nasal voice, "Nano nano nano. Nano nano nano..." AAAAAAAAAAAAAA vivek -------- Original Message -------- Subject: [Urbanstudy] A complicated bus ride Date: Wed, 26 Nov 2008 19:35:40 -0800 (PST) From: lalitha kamath To: urbanstudygroup at sarai.net, NURM list Editorial: A complicated bus-ride (By Sunita Narain) ============================= What does Barack Obama's election as president of the US have to do with buses in India? A lot. Obama stands for what he calls 'change' -- in the way we think and do business. But the call will remain rhetoric unless we translate it into practical, everyday life, changes. To do that, we must bring changes in our business model and, most importantly, in what is essential and what needs to be invested in. What have we learnt about translating good ideas into hard realities? Anyone who lives in Indian cities and gets crushed under the weight of traffic and pollution will accept we need a massive transition to public transport. This is a win-win answer, almost as persuasive as saying 'we believe in change'. Yet, the number of buses in our cities has gone down and not up. In 1951, one of every 10 vehicles sold in India was a bus; today, out of every 100 vehicles sold, one bus makes it to roads. Last year, the automobile industry placed another feather in its cap by selling over 1.5 million cars. In the same year, it sold only 38,000 buses. Not surprisingly, latest estimates by government-sponsored studies show that in spite of huge investment in flyovers and road expansive, driving speeds have come down in every Indian city. Let's not even talk about choking lungs. This is only the beginning of the problem. For even if we want buses we cannot have them. Why? Because our rich automobile companies, busy churning out cars for congested cities, do not have the capacity to manufacture buses. There are only two real players in the market -- Tata Motors and Ashok Leyland. These companies do not make buses. They manufacture a truck chassis, on which various body builders assemble a bus body. As a result, when the city of Delhi or Ahmedabad places a tender for an urban bus, with improved design for comfort, it does not get many takers. Then, when the city finally does place an order, the manufacturer cannot deliver buses in the quantity and speed required. Delhi placed its first order for some 500 low-floor urban buses over a year ago. It is still waiting for all the buses to be delivered by Tata Motors. The company says it can manufacture only 100 units a month in its newly developed facility in Lucknow. Now Delhi has placed another order for over 2,500 buses, this time dividing it between Tata and Leyland. Leyland says it will begin delivery some time next year and will also be able to manufacture only 100 units each month. Delhi adds 1,000 vehicles each day on to its roads. It desperately needs to overhaul its entire public transport system, now handled by individual operators. In this situation, it will need to order another 6,000-odd buses. But who will make them? For believers of a market-led economy, this question is a no-brainer. They will say if there is a demand for buses, manufacturers will crowd it. But this is precisely where we need to heed the call for change, Obama-style. We need to recognise the market needs a product that currently is outside the reach of consumers. The urban bus will cost more than current variants, because it requires components for comfort and convenience. Therefore, the challenge is to manufacture high-comfort but affordable buses-- a Nano-type solution. When Ahmedabad wanted to order the same-Delhi type buses, it found, to its horror, that bus companies quoted astronomical prices. It then had to settle for a standard diesel vehicle, tweaking its look with some creative bus body-building. The bus market is not the car market, and that's the problem. The latter has been carefully developed by manufacturers and credit agencies. So, even as manufacturers push and peddle their ware, they do little to push a vehicle that could take millions to their destinations. The bus is the poor person's vehicle and nobody wants to do business in it, for buses will have to be driven by agencies that agree to take up the business of transporting people in cities. Currently, all our bus companies operate in the red. It is easy to dismiss this problem by calling it the curse of inefficient public sector utilities, and so completely miss the point. The fact is even the most efficient modern bus service, in our poor cities, will cost more than the market can afford. Particularly if we want to get better buses on our roads, which means more capital investment. But even as we are willing to understand this affordability gap, when, say, it comes to subsidizing air travel, we refuse to do the same for buses. We will even subsidize cars, by charging them less road tax than a bus, or not charging them for their running cost. But we will never do this for buses. The Union ministry of surface transport has itself calculated that the combined losses of the state-run public utilities -- it was Rs 2,000 crore in 2004-05 -- would go down to less than Rs 900 crore if various Central and state taxes on bus companies were removed. It is, therefore, intentional policy that drives down this market. The policy is derived from an ideology that believes the market will fix everything, without considering how the market can be made to work where there is demand but less purchasing power or credit-worthiness. Why does this happen in a country where the majority still takes a bus to work? Why is the voice of the majority neutered in our democracy? Maybe this is why we need, most of all, to understand Barack Obama's victory, where the people spoke for change. Maybe, change is in the air. Read this editorial online >> http://www.downtoearth.org.in/cover_nl.asp?mode=1 To comment, write to >> feedback at cseindia.org siddharth sareen wrote: > Actually, that particular point is a fairly true reflection of the real > state of affairs. Tata and Ashok Leyland are the two major private players > in the country who have any capacity whatsoever to build buses, but their > plant capacity is severely limited and nowhere near the kind of numbers we'd > need, especially if more BRT corridors are to come up and the quantities > that would be a requisite for a paradigm shift in urban transport were to be > demanded. The possibility has been explored in the past, but there's not > much incentive for the companies to develop such capacity, as compared to > faster delivery of more cars. > > Best > > On Wed, Apr 8, 2009 at 8:06 PM, Kshmendra Kaul wrote: > > >> Dear Rahul >> >> NANO or no NANO, for many on this List, Gujrat, TATA and India are all >> a NO-NO in which there cannot be any good aspects. >> >> What has surprised me though is that someone like Sunita Narain (otherwise >> deserving of admiration) should say something as downright stupid and >> ill-informed as : >> >> """""" Think also that the same Tata company, that has managed to roll out >> the car of our dreams in record time, does not possess the capacity to build >> the buses cities need. """""" >> >> In fact much of the tone and content of this piece by her makes me wonder >> whether she is going the "BLOWBACK" Arundhati Roy way of display of abject >> superficiality of intellect. That would be sad. >> >> Kshmendra >> >> >> >> --- On Wed, 4/8/09, Rahul Asthana wrote: >> >> From: Rahul Asthana >> Subject: Re: [Reader-list] The world’s cheapest car? >> To: "Sanjay Kak" , "Rakesh Iyer" < >> rakesh.rnbdj at gmail.com> >> Cc: "Sarai Reader List" >> Date: Wednesday, April 8, 2009, 7:14 PM >> >> The writer doesn't take into account the intangibles accruing to >> Gujarat,Tata and India from this project. >> >> >> --- On Wed, 4/8/09, Rakesh Iyer wrote: >> >> >>> From: Rakesh Iyer >>> Subject: Re: [Reader-list] The world’s cheapest car? >>> To: "Sanjay Kak" >>> Cc: "Sarai Reader List" >>> Date: Wednesday, April 8, 2009, 5:01 PM >>> And instead of criticizing such subsidies, we have people >>> who instead >>> justify Modi's far-sightedness in bringing about >>> industrial >>> development to Gujarat. A very important article, and I >>> feel not only >>> this, but other kinds of data regarding pollution need to >>> be brought >>> in, so also the deteriorating effects these private >>> vehicles are >>> having on our health system. >>> >>> It would have been better had the Gujarat government had >>> instead >>> subsidized some public vehicle making plant, as that would >>> have >>> benefited all. Instead our governments are ready to do what >>> the US >>> govt generally does, bend down to the corporates. The day >>> we all lose >>> our money like this, probably doles would be given to >>> people without >>> guarantee to continue this capitalist system. And we will >>> go down the >>> drain sooner or later like the US has if we continue with >>> this. >>> ________ From anivar.aravind at gmail.com Wed Apr 8 22:18:03 2009 From: anivar.aravind at gmail.com (Anivar Aravind) Date: Wed, 8 Apr 2009 22:18:03 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] =?utf-8?q?Dr_Sen=E2=80=99s_heart_condition=3A_Lette?= =?utf-8?q?r_from_Medicos_to_Chief_Justice_of_India?= Message-ID: <35f96d470904080948p3885458aw526b4fb463493ff5@mail.gmail.com> 53 Doctors and Noam Chomsky demand immediate release of Binayak sen http://www.binayaksen.net/2009/04/letter-to-chief-justice-of-india/ Download as PDF http://binayaksen.net/download/CJILetter_BSen.pdf 4 April 2009 Honorine Ward, MD Associate Professor Div of Geographic Medicine and Infectious Diseases Tufts Medical Center 800 Washington Street Boston, MA 02111 To : The Honourable Chief Justice of India, We are extremely concerned about the health of Dr. Binayak Sen who has been imprisoned in Raipur since May 2007. Recently we learned that his health had worsened and that the doctor appointed by the court to examine him recommended that he be transferred to Vellore for an angiography and perhaps, if needed, an angioplasty or Coronary Artery Bypass Graft without further delay. We believe that the court had ordered that Dr. Binayak receive treatment as per the doctor’s recommendations but there are still hurdles being created by the local administration. We urge you to use your good offices to see that this order is implemented immediately, as any delay may pose a risk to Dr. Binayak Sen’s life. We also urge that Dr. Binayak be granted the bail that has been denied to him for almost two years now. Dr. Binayak has a blemishless record of public service both as a medical doctor amongst the poor and as a human rights crusader, and it is our humble opinion that a great injustice has already been done to him. We urge you to review his case. Enclosure: Copy of Letter from Dr. Malhotra who examined Dr. Binayak Sen, March2008. Sincerely, 1. Dr. Anagha Amte Maharogi Seva Samiti Anandwan, Warora, Maharashtra 2. Dr. Bharati Amte Maharogi Seva Samiti Anandwan, Warora, Maharashtra 3. Dr. Diganth Amte Maharogi Seva Samiti Anandwan, Warora, Maharashtra 4. Dr. Prakash Amte Maharogi Seva Samiti Anandwan, Warora, Maharashtra 5. Dr. Sheetal Amte Maharogi Seva Samiti Anandwan, Warora, Maharashtra 6. Dr. Vikas Amte Maharogi Seva Samiti Anandwan, Warora, Maharashtra 7. Dr. Sugan Baranth Sane Guruji Rugnalaya Malegaon, Maraharashtra 8. Dr Prabir Chatterjee MD Routine Immunization Consultant 196-C/1 Picnic Garden Road Kolkata, West Bengal 9. Bobby J. Cherayil, MD Associate Professor of Pediatrics Harvard Medical School Boston, Massachusetts 10. Anita Cheriyan, MD Clinical Assistant Professor Case Western Reserve University Cleveland, Ohio 11. Noam Chomsky Professor of Linguistics Massachusetts Institute of Technology Boston, Massachusetts 12. Keith G Davies, FRCS Associate Professor of Neurosurgery Boston University, Massachusetts 13. Sudarshan Devanesen CM MD CCFP M.Cl.Sc.FCFP Associate Professor of Medicine University of Toronto 14. Dr. Yeshwant Devare General Practitioner Sane Guruji Rugnalaya Malegaon, Maharashtra 15. Ranjan Duara, MD, MRCP, FAAN Professor of Neurology, University of South Florida College of Medicine, Tampa, Florida Professor of Neurology, Florida International University College of Medicine, Miami FL and Associate Professor of Medicine, Neurology and Psychiatry, University of Miami Miller School of Medicine, Miami, Florida 16. Shahnaz Duara, MD Professor of Pediatrics and Director Newborn Nursery University of Miami, Miller School of Medicine Miami, Florida 17. Mary Ganguli, MD MPH Professor of Psychiatry, Neurology, and Epidemiology, University of Pittsburgh, Pennsylvania 18. Rohan Ganguli MD Professor of Psychiatry, Pathology, and Community Health Systems University of Pittsburgh, Pennsylvania Professor of Psychiatry, University of Toronto Executive Vice President, Center for Addiction and Mental Health Toronto, Ontario, Canada 19. Dr. Revathi Joshi Primary Health Center Dhadgaon, Maharashtra 20. Sandra Lobo MRCP, DCH Pediatric Neurologist Belmont Massachusetts 21. Philip T Ninan MD Vice President for Neuroscience Global Medical Affairs Wyeth Pharmaceuticals Collegeville, Pennsylvania 22. Dr. Rakhal Gaitonde Training and Research Associate Community Health Cell Bangalore, Karnataka 23. Dr. Rumi Jehangir Opthalmic Surgeon Mumbai, Maharashtra 24. Surendra Kelwala, MD Associate Clinical Professor of Psychiatry Wayne State University, Detroit, Michigan 25. Dr. Vivek Korde General Practioner Mumbai, Maharashtra 26. Shanker Krishnamurthy, MD Orthopedic Surgeon Cortlandt Manor, NY 27. Uma Krishnamurthy, MD Aneasthesiologist Cortlandt Manor, New York 28. Usha Kuchimanchi, MD, MRCP Consultant Physician Hull and East Riding East Yorkshire, United Kingdom 29. Satish Kumar, MD Professor of Medicine University of Oklahoma 30. Alexander Kuruvila, M.D. Otolaryngologist, Head and Neck Surgeon Riverside, California 31. Dr. Rupa Madkaikar General Practioner Mumbai, Maharashtra 32. Ranjit Mani, MD, FRCP Neurologist Rockville, Maryland 33. Smita Mehta, MD Pediatrician Nevada 34. Dr. Badar Maskati General Practitioner Saifee Hospital 35. Dr. Anirudh Malpani General Practitioner Malpani Hospital Mumbai 36. Dr. Narayan Malpani General Practitioner Malpani Hospital Mumbai, Maharashtra 37. Dr. Quresh Maskati General Practitioner Saifee Hospital Mumbai, Maharashtra 38. Dr. M.P. Mirajkar General Practitioner Habib Hospital Mumbai, Maharashtra 39. Dr. Sanjay Nagral Consultant HPB & Liver Transplant Surgeon Dept of Surgical Gastroenterology Jaslok Hospital & Research Centre Mumbai, Maharashtra 40. Deven Naik General Practioner Mumbai, Maharashtra 41. Ramji Narayan, MS Atlas Star Medical Centre Al Khuwair Sultanate of Oman 42. Shiv Pillai, MD, PhD Associate Professor of Medicine Harvard Medical School Boston, Massachusetts 43. Dr. Vijay Pole Maharogi Seva Samiti Anandwan, Warora, Maharashtra 44. Dr. Sham Pophle General Practioner Mumbai, Maharashtra 45. Dr. Pallavi Raut Primary Health Center Dhadgaon, Maharashtra 46. Dr. Anita Roy Consultant, Anasthesiology Navi Mumbai, Maharashtra 47. Dr. Nobhojit Roy Head, Department of Surgery BARC Hospital Mumbai, Maharashtra 48. Nandini Sengupta, MD, MPH Clinical Director, Pediatrics Dimock Community Health Center Boston, Massachusetts 49. Professor Michael Stein Executive Director Harvard Law School Projects on Disabilities Harvard University Cambridge, Massachusetts 50. Dr. R. Sukanya Training and Research Associate Community Health Cell Bangalore, Karnataka 51. Ajit Varki, MD Distinguished Professor of Medicine and Cellular & Molecular Medicine University of California, San Diego 52. Nissi Varki, MD Professor of Pathology University of California, San Diego 53. Dr. Ketki Waghe General Practioner Mumbai, Maharashtra 54. Honorine Ward, MD Associate Professor of Medicine and Public Health Tufts University School of Medicine Boston, Massachusetts Related News: # Raipur Satyagraha Update: 6th April http://www.binayaksen.net/2009/04/raipur-satyagraha-update-6th-april/ # Press Statement by Arundhati Roy for the Release of Dr Binayak Sen http://www.binayaksen.net/2009/04/arundhati-roy-statement/ # Towards The Second Year Of Mockery http://www.binayaksen.net/2009/04/towards-the-second-year-of-mockery/ # Sacrificing Human Rights And Environmental Rights At The Altar Of “Development” http://www.binayaksen.net/2009/04/prashant-bhushan-speech/ # ex-Judge expects Binayak’s release given the public support http://www.binayaksen.net/2009/04/demonstration-and-public-meeting-in-pune/ # The courtroom farce in Chhattisgarh : Anand Patwardhan http://www.binayaksen.net/2009/04/the-courtroom-farce-in-chhattisgarh/ # A right to a fair trial, a right to life : The Lancet Editorial http://www.binayaksen.net/2009/04/a-right-to-a-fair-trial-a-right-to-life/ # “Immediately withdraw Charges against Dr. Sen” : UK-academics letter published in Guardian http://www.binayaksen.net/2009/04/letter-to-the-guardian/ -- Anivar Aravind movingrepublic http://anivar.movingrepublic.org From 2tahamehmood at googlemail.com Thu Apr 9 00:18:18 2009 From: 2tahamehmood at googlemail.com (Taha Mehmood) Date: Wed, 08 Apr 2009 19:48:18 +0100 Subject: [Reader-list] What after MNIC? The MIND, the final frontier. In-Reply-To: <49DCF125.6030200@gmail.com> References: <376728.44175.qm@web57201.mail.re3.yahoo.com> <49DCF125.6030200@gmail.com> Message-ID: <49DCF172.4080305@gmail.com> Dear Kshmendra (and All) This is with respect to your post. Could you please explain what has the development of this new technology got to do with National Identity Cards because on the face to it, they seem like two un-related events. I would be more than happy to benefit from your insights. Regards Taha From 2tahamehmood at googlemail.com Thu Apr 9 00:38:43 2009 From: 2tahamehmood at googlemail.com (Taha Mehmood) Date: Wed, 08 Apr 2009 20:08:43 +0100 Subject: [Reader-list] =?utf-8?q?The_world=E2=80=99s_cheapest_car=3F?= In-Reply-To: <49DCBFA9.8080608@sarai.net> References: <213914.70852.qm@web53609.mail.re2.yahoo.com> <55203.43405.qm@web57204.mail.re3.yahoo.com> <516b63a90904080749r3f847747labb0abf64cfe329a@mail.gmail.com> <49DCBFA9.8080608@sarai.net> Message-ID: <49DCF63B.7050402@gmail.com> Dear Vivek (and All ) I think it would be useful if we were to include just a small bit of information while discussing privately owned transport like Nano and comparing it's benefits or losses with that to publicly owned transport/ privately owned public transport like BRT or Buses. This is what we can glean from the Delhi Master plan (2021)- ‘that buses, which constitute barely 1.2 percent of the total number of vehicles, cater to around 60 percent of the total transport load’ (Delhi Master Plan 2001-2021. p-57). http://www.urbanindia.nic.in/moud/what'snew/mps-eng.pdf Further more it is mentioned in the same document that, 'while personal vehicles -cars and scooters, though almost 93 percent of the total number of vehicles, cater to around only 30 percent of the travel demand. Such a huge share of private vehicles in Delhi, while serving a relatively limited purpose in terms of the transportation modal split, obviously creates tremendous pressure on road space, parking, and pollution directly and through congestion.' Therefore shouldn't we also try to articulate this debate in terms of social responsibility on behalf of corporates to cater to a burgeoning market? Regards Taha PS: In this regard could I please suggest other members who have shared with their thoughts with us on this thread, to at least take the pain of verifying some data before letting us know what they think of people like Ms Narain or why she has perhaps taken a particular position on this Nano issue. From indersalim at gmail.com Thu Apr 9 01:21:38 2009 From: indersalim at gmail.com (Inder Salim) Date: Thu, 9 Apr 2009 01:21:38 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] The world's cheapest car Message-ID: <47e122a70904081251x2547fa22ta6e8761e580c9da4@mail.gmail.com> Dear all, I quote Marianne Knuth We are warped and narrowed, by an exclusive devotion to trade and commerce…. If we are unwilling to listen to an existentialist’s view on what is Life’s core purpose of being, then we have no choice but to quote Rattan Tata. I believe Rattan Tata has nothing to declare except his devotion to Trade and Commerce. I just happen to be on the Existentialist’s side. One is free to be, but is Tata ready to think about you beyond his ‘profitability’ factor. I am afraid, NOT. Where I am working, I am telling you from first hand experience, all the entrepreneurs in India are big defaulters. They have virtually crippled the Financial sector, almost, and at the same time have deeply invested in the Private Sector, but it real estate or direct investment. The time has never been so good for these defaulters to cultivate the cream of Indian economy simply by coming closer to Bureaucrats, Judiciary and political circles. Examples are galore, one is surprised to see how easy in India is to acquire land. How cheap is Zameen, Do bigha, of which was the umbilical cord of a small farmer, or a possibility for landless to get their piece of land, but alas, this Indian part of IWC ( Integrated World Capitalism ) we see how brazenly the appropriation of this Governmental land has happened. Now even if there is political assertion, there is no land to be distributed to the land less, and oppressed of the our society. The rich people have encroached upon this people’s land. Of course , legally. It is true People like cars, but the saner voices in Developed World ( west ) see the car as a sign of ugliness. But here in India, when there are ten thousand reasons to save the society from other ills, I wont be surprised if Rattan Tata is chosen for Bharat Rattan, the heights Indian Award for excellence, next year for launching Nano. Ha But has there been any debate for environmental degradation which his company and other such monsters have caused to our dear earth. The debate will never be initiated, simply because there is a deep nexus. Is there a way to fix the responsibility. Here, I am too pessimistic. I might digress a little by sharing my personal experience about Tata Telephone. Before I had this present MTNL BroadBand I had one Tata connection. They charged me Rs.0.40 per minute, but the connection was terribly slow and I had to lodge a complaint. Finally after many many phone calls I happened to talk one of the Tata guys ( he told me so, but I doubt ) about the reasons of slow connectivity. He replied it is just like that, but I said, look my dear Manager, I am being charged for the duration I am on the net through your company, (Tata) , but what do I get if after one hour I barely manage to open just a page or so. He said, sorry. But this ‘sorry’ story was not about one person. They had given connections to millions without buying sufficient band width from the Government, This is what I understand, that how these companies rob a commoner by simply saying it is slow, just slow. Please be patient. But they earn millions without giving anything back. So when Nano will be on the roads, and if you are late in office because of terrible traffic jams, do we expect to say our bosses, please be patient, the roads are narrow, but we have millions of colourful Nanos on the roads. Or, do I expect Rattan Tata to explain why I am late to office. Unfortunately, now I have to start one hour early, to arrive office in time. So what is net gain ? with love and regards inder salim -- http://indersalim.livejournal.com From ysaeed7 at yahoo.com Thu Apr 9 08:54:35 2009 From: ysaeed7 at yahoo.com (Yousuf) Date: Wed, 8 Apr 2009 20:24:35 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Reader-list] US varsity plans symposium to honour M F Husain Message-ID: <711695.93059.qm@web51411.mail.re2.yahoo.com> Its interesting that many Indian scholars are participating in this conference, but the TOI report does not mention their names. ------- US varsity plans symposium to honour M F Husain 30 Mar 2009, 0118 hrs IST, Anubha Sawhney Joshi, TNN MUMBAI: India may be undecided on what kind of welcome to accord M F Husain if he chooses to come home, but elsewhere the honours are piling up. North Carolina's Duke University is celebrating the artist in an international symposium from April 9 to 12. Titled "Barefoot Across The Nation: Maqbool Fida Husain and The Idea of India", the four-day symposium is a tribute to "arguably modern India's most iconic and celebrated painter and also possibly that country's most embattled artist today''. Speaking to TOI from Dubai, Husain said he has mixed feelings about the Duke project, which also looks at the "cultural politics of risk in our troubled times''. While he isn't planning to attend it, he does feel slightly downcast that such an event is taking place on an international platform and not at home. "There's a saying in Hindi that goes diya tale andhera, which means the darkest place is under the lamp. Maybe that's why an international university had the vision to honour my work, while a small section of Indians still feel I have wronged them.'' Does this step-motherly treatment from some people in his motherland make him angry? "If I were a reckless 40-year-old, maybe it would. But thank god I'm over 90,'' he laughs. Among the many events on the conference calendar will be presentations by Peabody Museum's Susan Bean, University of Michigan's Barbara Metcalf, screenings of the making of Gaja Gamini, a lecture on "M F Husain as a Muslim Painter" by Bruce Lawrence, director of the Duke University Islamic Studies Centre and another lecture called "The Bliss of Madhuri: Husain and his Muse" by Patricia Uberoi, a visiting professor at the University of North Carolina. Does the artist believe he can ever return to India? "I think 90% of Indians love me. To the rest, who have been offended by my work, I have apologised. After the Supreme Court's landmark judgment last year refusing to initiate criminal proceedings against me, there were rumours about my returning and being given high-class security and a bullet-proof vehicle. I'm sure the government doesn't plan to give me more security than Rajiv, Indira or Mahatma Gandhi. What can they do if some fanatic decides to shoot me on the street?'' That said, Husain is "very optimistic'' that the changing political scenario has good news in store for him. "I'm craving to come back.'' anubha.sawhney at timesgroup.com From pawan.durani at gmail.com Thu Apr 9 10:13:44 2009 From: pawan.durani at gmail.com (Pawan Durani) Date: Thu, 9 Apr 2009 10:13:44 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] The world's cheapest car In-Reply-To: <47e122a70904081251x2547fa22ta6e8761e580c9da4@mail.gmail.com> References: <47e122a70904081251x2547fa22ta6e8761e580c9da4@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <6b79f1a70904082143x7edc5c30n221fc8f228e998b2@mail.gmail.com> Lal Salaam ke liye "Nagoor Khatte Hai"....... On Thu, Apr 9, 2009 at 1:21 AM, Inder Salim wrote: > Dear all, > > I quote Marianne Knuth We are warped and narrowed, by an exclusive > devotion to trade and commerce…. > > If we are unwilling to listen to an existentialist’s view on what is > Life’s core purpose of being, then we have no choice but to quote > Rattan Tata. > > I believe Rattan Tata has nothing to declare except his devotion to > Trade and Commerce. I just happen to be on the Existentialist’s side. > One is free to be, but is Tata ready to think about you beyond his > ‘profitability’ factor. I am afraid, NOT. > > Where I am working, I am telling you from first hand experience, all > the entrepreneurs in India are big defaulters. They have virtually > crippled the Financial sector, almost, and at the same time have > deeply invested in the Private Sector, but it real estate or direct > investment. > > The time has never been so good for these defaulters to cultivate the > cream of Indian economy simply by coming closer to Bureaucrats, > Judiciary and political circles. Examples are galore, one is > surprised to see how easy in India is to acquire land. How cheap is > Zameen, Do bigha, of which was the umbilical cord of a small farmer, > or a possibility for landless to get their piece of land, but alas, > this Indian part of IWC ( Integrated World Capitalism ) we see how > brazenly the appropriation of this Governmental land has happened. Now > even if there is political assertion, there is no land to be > distributed to the land less, and oppressed of the our society. The > rich people have encroached upon this people’s land. Of course , > legally. > > It is true People like cars, but the saner voices in Developed World > ( west ) see the car as a sign of ugliness. > > But here in India, when there are ten thousand reasons to save the > society from other ills, I wont be surprised if Rattan Tata is chosen > for Bharat Rattan, the heights Indian Award for excellence, next year > for launching Nano. Ha > > But has there been any debate for environmental degradation which his > company and other such monsters have caused to our dear earth. The > debate will never be initiated, simply because there is a deep nexus. > Is there a way to fix the responsibility. Here, I am too pessimistic. > > I might digress a little by sharing my personal experience about Tata > Telephone. Before I had this present MTNL BroadBand I had one Tata > connection. They charged me Rs.0.40 per minute, but the connection was > terribly slow and I had to lodge a complaint. Finally after many > many phone calls I happened to talk one of the Tata guys ( he told me > so, but I doubt ) about the reasons of slow connectivity. He replied > it is just like that, but I said, look my dear Manager, I am being > charged for the duration I am on the net through your company, (Tata) > , but what do I get if after one hour I barely manage to open just a > page or so. > > He said, sorry. But this ‘sorry’ story was not about one person. They > had given connections to millions without buying sufficient band width > from the Government, This is what I understand, that how these > companies rob a commoner by simply saying it is slow, just slow. > Please be patient. But they earn millions without giving anything > back. > > So when Nano will be on the roads, and if you are late in office > because of terrible traffic jams, do we expect to say our bosses, > please be patient, the roads are narrow, but we have millions of > colourful Nanos on the roads. > > Or, do I expect Rattan Tata to explain why I am late to office. > Unfortunately, now I have to start one hour early, to arrive office > in time. > > So what is net gain ? > > with love and regards > inder salim > > > -- > > http://indersalim.livejournal.com > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > subscribe in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> From pawan.durani at gmail.com Thu Apr 9 10:14:06 2009 From: pawan.durani at gmail.com (Pawan Durani) Date: Thu, 9 Apr 2009 10:14:06 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] The world's cheapest car In-Reply-To: <47e122a70904081251x2547fa22ta6e8761e580c9da4@mail.gmail.com> References: <47e122a70904081251x2547fa22ta6e8761e580c9da4@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <6b79f1a70904082144j1662a11ex786d6a23b8edee4d@mail.gmail.com> Lal Salaam ke liye "Angoor Khatte Hai"..... On Thu, Apr 9, 2009 at 1:21 AM, Inder Salim wrote: > Dear all, > > I quote Marianne Knuth We are warped and narrowed, by an exclusive > devotion to trade and commerce…. > > If we are unwilling to listen to an existentialist’s view on what is > Life’s core purpose of being, then we have no choice but to quote > Rattan Tata. > > I believe Rattan Tata has nothing to declare except his devotion to > Trade and Commerce. I just happen to be on the Existentialist’s side. > One is free to be, but is Tata ready to think about you beyond his > ‘profitability’ factor. I am afraid, NOT. > > Where I am working, I am telling you from first hand experience, all > the entrepreneurs in India are big defaulters. They have virtually > crippled the Financial sector, almost, and at the same time have > deeply invested in the Private Sector, but it real estate or direct > investment. > > The time has never been so good for these defaulters to cultivate the > cream of Indian economy simply by coming closer to Bureaucrats, > Judiciary and political circles. Examples are galore, one is > surprised to see how easy in India is to acquire land. How cheap is > Zameen, Do bigha, of which was the umbilical cord of a small farmer, > or a possibility for landless to get their piece of land, but alas, > this Indian part of IWC ( Integrated World Capitalism ) we see how > brazenly the appropriation of this Governmental land has happened. Now > even if there is political assertion, there is no land to be > distributed to the land less, and oppressed of the our society. The > rich people have encroached upon this people’s land. Of course , > legally. > > It is true People like cars, but the saner voices in Developed World > ( west ) see the car as a sign of ugliness. > > But here in India, when there are ten thousand reasons to save the > society from other ills, I wont be surprised if Rattan Tata is chosen > for Bharat Rattan, the heights Indian Award for excellence, next year > for launching Nano. Ha > > But has there been any debate for environmental degradation which his > company and other such monsters have caused to our dear earth. The > debate will never be initiated, simply because there is a deep nexus. > Is there a way to fix the responsibility. Here, I am too pessimistic. > > I might digress a little by sharing my personal experience about Tata > Telephone. Before I had this present MTNL BroadBand I had one Tata > connection. They charged me Rs.0.40 per minute, but the connection was > terribly slow and I had to lodge a complaint. Finally after many > many phone calls I happened to talk one of the Tata guys ( he told me > so, but I doubt ) about the reasons of slow connectivity. He replied > it is just like that, but I said, look my dear Manager, I am being > charged for the duration I am on the net through your company, (Tata) > , but what do I get if after one hour I barely manage to open just a > page or so. > > He said, sorry. But this ‘sorry’ story was not about one person. They > had given connections to millions without buying sufficient band width > from the Government, This is what I understand, that how these > companies rob a commoner by simply saying it is slow, just slow. > Please be patient. But they earn millions without giving anything > back. > > So when Nano will be on the roads, and if you are late in office > because of terrible traffic jams, do we expect to say our bosses, > please be patient, the roads are narrow, but we have millions of > colourful Nanos on the roads. > > Or, do I expect Rattan Tata to explain why I am late to office. > Unfortunately, now I have to start one hour early, to arrive office > in time. > > So what is net gain ? > > with love and regards > inder salim > > > -- > > http://indersalim.livejournal.com > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > subscribe in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> From pawan.durani at gmail.com Thu Apr 9 10:22:37 2009 From: pawan.durani at gmail.com (Pawan Durani) Date: Thu, 9 Apr 2009 10:22:37 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] =?windows-1252?q?Nalanda_ruins_-_A_revelation_of_In?= =?windows-1252?q?dia=92s_past_wisdom?= Message-ID: <6b79f1a70904082152w89eba46gae40fd4f635fff54@mail.gmail.com> *Nalanda ruins - A revelation of India’s past wisdom* ** *By J N Raina* ** *This* time I made it to Nalanda; the seat of ancient learning. The ruins of Nalanda (giver of knowledge) are magnificent and touching. The very name of Nalanda, a world heritage site, had been conjuring me since long. Four years ago, I could not reach the rendezvous, as the 65-km-long road from Gaya to Nalanda was in a bad shape. Although the bus I had boarded was in good condition, it halted at several places for one reason or the other, making the journey tiresome and boring. The bus had virtually to crawl on stones. One of its tires got burst, forcing me to cut short my journey at Rajgir, a famous pilgrimage centre, just 12 km short of Nalanda. But luckily enough, this time it took me and my wife just two-and-a-half hours to reach Nalanda from Gaya, indicating the fact that conditions in Bihar are improving. Bihar’s new Chief Minister Nitish Kumar, heading the BJP-Janata Dal (U) coalition government, completed one year in office in November last. People by and large are happy with his method of governance. Nitish Kumar has promised his people ‘good-quality roads’ this year. Construction has begun on ‘war footing’. The world-famous Nalanda University had flourished from the 5th century AD to the 12th century AD. The world’s first residential university had been housing about 10,000 students and 2000 teachers. When I walked through the ruins, keeping pace with my guide Anil Kumar, I was mentally taken away into an era which saw India leading in imparting knowledge to the world. The courses of study included Buddhism, Vedas, Hetu Vidya (logic), Shabda Vidya (grammar) and Chikitsa Vidya (Medicine). The university had received royal patronage from Emperor Harshavardana of Kannauj and Pali Kings. As we meandered through the ruins in good sunshine on February 12, 2007, the guide narrated the history of Nalanda from King Kumar Gupta, who had laid firm foundations of the university in the 5th century AD, to its destruction. The university was further extended (after it was established by Kumar Gupta) by Harshavardhana in the 7th century AD. After 200 years, it was rebuilt by king Devapala of the Pala dynasty. But it was painful to know that Nalanda University , which originally covered an area of 50 square km, was set on fire by Mohammad Bakhtiar Khilji of Afghanistan. The fire kept on raging for six months, destroying its three marvelous libraries --- Ratnasagar, Ratnodiadni and Ratnarangika. An earthquake later tumbled down the residual structures in the 13th century AD and everything was covered under huge boulders of mud. Now there is a railway station in Bakhtiar’s name on the Nalanda-Patna track. Fanatic Muslim invaders were against Buddhism, monasteries and monks, the guide told me. Several monks were killed and many more were forced to flee to other parts of India and abroad. Most of them found refuge in Tibet. Much of the tradition of Nalanda had been carried into Tibet by the time of the Muslim invasion of the 12th century. The invading army also destroyed huge collection of manuscripts and other works, which was obtained as a result of centuries old scholastic studies. According to Pali scriptures, Nalanda was a mango grove. Lord Buddha often used to stop at a place called Pavarika, which used to be quite prosperous and teeming with people. Nalanda was the birth place of Sariputta and Maha-Moggallana, two chief disciples of Buddha. Sariputta died in the room in which he was born. The room later began to be regarded as the most sacred spot. It was converted into a shrine. Emperor Ashoka gave an offering to the ‘Chaitya’ (temple) of Sariputta . In fact, Ashoka is regarded as the founder of Nalanda vihara. He built a stupa in Nalanda in the third century BC. Nalanda was known throughout the ancient world for its learned and renowned teachers like Acharya Nagarjuna, Silabhadra, Arya Deva, Santarakshita and Dingandga. My guide told me that it was Alexander Cunnigham, an expert Archaeologist during the British rule in India, who discovered the ruined sites of Nalanda University in 1861. The ruins were excavated first in 1915 and then by the Archaeological Survey of India (ASI) from 1915 to 1937. The excavation work was then given up. The total area of the excavated site is about 14 hectares. All the edifices are of red bricks. The gardens are beautiful. The university was constructed in the Kushana style of architecture, but the impact of the Pala dynasty is widely visible throughout. The excavations suggest that a large part of the university has so far remained undiscovered. The buildings are divided by a central walkway that goes south to north. The monasteries or Viharas are to the east of the central alley and the temples or Chaityas to the west. Thickness of the walls of monasteries and residential buildings ranged from three feet to a maximum of 12 feet, providing a cooling effect as that of modern day AC’s. Out of 108 monasteries, only 11 have been excavated so far. Chinese traveler Hieun Tsang , who had stayed in Nalanda, first as a student and then as a teacher, for 17 years, was given the titles of “ Master of the Law” (Dharma Charya), “ God of Mahayana” (Mahayanadeva) and “ Preceptor of Salvation” (Mokshacharya). According to Hieun Tsang, who had come to Nalanda in the 5th century AD, Nalanda formed an important zone of activity for Lord Buddha. There was a rigorous oral examination of students, conducted first by erudite gatekeepers. Many students were turned away who failed the preliminary test. To study at Nalanda was a matter of pride. However, no degrees were granted. Neither there was any requirement for a specific period of study. A memorial has been built in Hieun Tsang’s honour near the ruins. Two Chinese Buddhist monks, Mingxian and Huikuan visited Nalanda recently after a four-month long journey on foot from China’s Shanxi province, tracing the route undertaken by Hieun Tsang 1300 years ago. The two Chinese travelers were received by the Indian authorities at the Memorial Hall. Taxila University, now in West Pakistan, was destroyed under similar circumstances by the Muslim invaders. When Foreign Minister Pranab Mukherjee visited Taxila recently, and walked through the excavated sites of the ancient Buddhist university, he was excited to remark: “ If we do not forget the continuity, we may find solutions to the present……. The continuity of history could become a binder for the present, and remembering this continuity might help us find solutions to the present stand-off”. ASI has done a commendable job by saving the excavated monuments from further ruin. Nalanda, the site of a great temple city of yore, is now an important tourist attraction. Hundreds of tourists hailing from China, Japanand South East Asian countries could be seen hovering there. Careful excavation has identified many stupas, monasteries, hostels, temples, meditation halls, lecture rooms and structures which speak of the grandeur of Nalanda. The excavated treasure has been preserved and shelved in the Nalanda Archaeological Museum nearby the ruins. The guide led us to the museum where we could see valuable objects and images of Buddhist and Hindu gods and goddesses. There is a unique multiple spouted vessel of clay. It was used during those days at the time of worship. Snakes would streak into the vessel to consume milk. The museum was set up in 1971. It has a collection of ancient manuscripts and Buddhist statues. There is a collection of copper plates, ceiling plaques, coins, carved bricks, pottery and small heaps of burnt rice. An inscription of King Yashovarman of the 7th century describes Nalanda as a “ Row of monasteries with their series of turrets licking the clouds”. Now there is a proposal to set up a new residential university at Nalanda to be constructed in phases. It will cover an area of about 21 square km. **(The writer is a Veteran Journalist, based in Pune) * ** *Source: Kashmir Sentinel* From nc-agricowi at netcologne.de Wed Apr 8 14:56:41 2009 From: nc-agricowi at netcologne.de (VCH) Date: Wed, 08 Apr 2009 11:26:41 +0200 Subject: [Reader-list] =?iso-8859-1?q?=5BAnnouncements=5D_Final_call=3A_on?= =?iso-8859-1?q?e_minute_films_and_videos?= Message-ID: <20090408112641.F0C0B4F5.68C260CE@192.168.0.3> Call for entries Deadline: 2 May 2009 > -------------------------------------------- VideoChannel - video project environments http://videochannel.newmediafest:org is looking for "one minute films and videos" on the theme "memory " and "identity" for an online feature and future screening programs. Please find the entry regulations and form on http://www.nmartproject.net/netex/?p=447 > --------------------------------------------- VideoChannel - video project environments is a corporate part of [NewMediaArtProjectNetworjk]:||cologne http://www.nmartproject.net the experimental plattform for art and new media from Cologne/Germany. _______________________________________________ announcements mailing list announcements at sarai.net https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/announcements From yasir.media at gmail.com Thu Apr 9 13:45:18 2009 From: yasir.media at gmail.com (=?windows-1256?B?eWFzaXIgfu3HINPR?=) Date: Thu, 9 Apr 2009 13:15:18 +0500 Subject: [Reader-list] India's 15th general election: tools for citizen empowerment In-Reply-To: <0016e648be78bd636404670794ea@google.com> References: <0016e648be78bd636404670794ea@google.com> Message-ID: <5af37bb0904090115s5ced3eb7teb1d687fdb0ab11e@mail.gmail.com> (fwd) India's 15th general election: tools for citizen empowerment via The Official Google Blog by A Googler on 4/6/09 (Cross-posted from the Google India Blog ) At Google, we believe information is fundamentally empowering. While all of our technologies demonstrate a commitment to this guiding principle, information is especially important when a society comes together to participate in democratic elections. Beginning ten days from today, more than 700 million eligible voters in India will over the course of four weeks have the opportunity to participate in the largest democratic eventin human history — India's 15th general election. Today, along with a wide range of partners, we are happy to announce the launch of the Google India Elections Centre— available in English and in Hindi . People from across India can use the centre to do the following: - Confirm their voter registration status - Discover their polling location - View their constituency on a map - Consume relevant election-related news, blogs, videos, and quotations - Evaluate the status of development in their constituency across a range of indicators - Learn about the background of their Member of Parliament and this year's candidates With still more features to be added during the election, we hope the site will be an ongoing resource for analysis, governance, and democracy in India after the election. This project would not have been possible without the shared vision of a broad coalition of partners: the Association for Democratic Reforms, HT Media Limited , Indicus Analytics, the Janaagraha Centre for Citizenship and Democracy, the Liberty Institute , and PRS Legislative Services . These groups are the true champions of promoting a more transparent democracy, and we're privileged to be able to shine a light on their work on the occasion of India's 15th Lok Sabha polls. We're hopeful not only that the elections centre will further a culture that seeks access to information, but that it will also yield positive changes in voting patterns during the upcoming polls. Please visit the site, select your constituency, and get started! Spread the word about what you learn and, of course, don't forget to visit the polls. Posted by Rishi Jaitly, Senior Policy Analyst, and Sanjay Jain, Product Manager From 2tahamehmood at googlemail.com Thu Apr 9 13:45:59 2009 From: 2tahamehmood at googlemail.com (Taha Mehmood) Date: Thu, 09 Apr 2009 09:15:59 +0100 Subject: [Reader-list] Police chief quits over blunder Message-ID: <49DDAEBF.2080606@gmail.com> http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/7991307.stm Police chief quits over blunder *Britain's most senior counter-terrorism officer has resigned after making a security blunder which caused an anti-terror operation to be brought forward.* Assistant Commissioner Bob Quick inadvertently revealed secret papers to photographers when arriving for a Downing Street briefing on Wednesday. Mayor of London Boris Johnson said it was "with great sadness" that he had accepted senior officer's resignation. Twelve men were detained in raids in Manchester, Liverpool and Lancashire. Mr Johnson told BBC Radio 4's Today programme Mr Quick had a "very, very distinguished" career and that the incident had been "extremely unfortunate". There had been no witch hunt or effort to hound him out, he said. The mayor confirmed Assistant Commissioner John Yates would replace Mr Quick as head of counter-terrorism. The senior officer had faced intense criticism from opposition politicians after revealing the confidential document to photographers after arriving for a Downing Street briefing. The memo, marked "secret", carried an outline briefing on an on-going counter-terrorism operation. It contained the names of several senior officers, locations and details about the nature of the overseas threat. In a statement, Home Secretary Jacqui Smith said she had been informed of Mr Quick's resignation by Metropolitan Police Commissioner Sir Paul Stephenson. "Although the operation was successful, he felt that his position was untenable. I want to offer my sincere appreciation of all the outstanding work he has done in this role," she said. From kshmendra2005 at yahoo.com Thu Apr 9 16:56:13 2009 From: kshmendra2005 at yahoo.com (Kshmendra Kaul) Date: Thu, 9 Apr 2009 04:26:13 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Reader-list] What after MNIC? The MIND, the final frontier. In-Reply-To: <49DCF172.4080305@gmail.com> Message-ID: <982573.60210.qm@web57208.mail.re3.yahoo.com> Dear Taha   Your question surprises me. I would have presumed that you have read your own postings on this List regarding MNIC.   One of the premises on which the support for MNIC is based is that it will help weed out terrorists. A physical identity mapping.   This reported attempt to develop "human cognitive" technology also presumes that it will help weed out terrorists. A Mind mapping.   Kshmendra    --- On Thu, 4/9/09, Taha Mehmood <2tahamehmood at googlemail.com> wrote: From: Taha Mehmood <2tahamehmood at googlemail.com> Subject: Re: [Reader-list] What after MNIC? The MIND, the final frontier. To: kshmendra2005 at yahoo.com, "reader-list" Date: Thursday, April 9, 2009, 12:18 AM Dear Kshmendra (and All) This is with respect to your post. Could you please explain what has the development of this new technology got to do with National Identity Cards because on the face to it, they seem like two un-related events. I would be more than happy to benefit from your insights. Regards Taha From pawan.durani at gmail.com Thu Apr 9 17:19:44 2009 From: pawan.durani at gmail.com (Pawan Durani) Date: Thu, 9 Apr 2009 17:19:44 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] 'sickular' Message-ID: <6b79f1a70904090449t1a000d38l9cdb09ba215cf0a8@mail.gmail.com> CPI(M) is also wooing the Jamaat in Kerala and West Bengal and has even made a mention of the Ranganath Mishra Committee in its campaign documents. The Jamaat has been demanding implementation of the Mishra committee report which recommended 15 per cent reservation for minorities with 10 per cent exclusively for Muslims. The CPI(M) recently held a round of discussion with the Jamaat leadership in Kerala and it is learnt that the party’s central leadership has sent a message to the outfits’s top brass here that West Bengal state secretary Biman Basu would also like to meet Jamaat leaders in the state. Interestingly, while the Jamaat’s central leadership is in favour of supporting the Left for ensuring a third alternative, the state units of the outfit are not that enthused. http://cpmindia.blogspot.com/2009/03/cpm-terror-nexus.html From kshmendra2005 at yahoo.com Thu Apr 9 18:18:47 2009 From: kshmendra2005 at yahoo.com (Kshmendra Kaul) Date: Thu, 9 Apr 2009 05:48:47 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Reader-list] =?utf-8?q?The_world=E2=80=99s_cheapest_car=3F?= In-Reply-To: <516b63a90904080749r3f847747labb0abf64cfe329a@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <933606.93646.qm@web57208.mail.re3.yahoo.com> Dear Siddharth   Personal Convenience Vehicles (Cars) and Public Transport Vehicles (Large Buses) are two distinctly different product categories in every which way including Technological Requirements, Economics, Purchase Decisions, Financing etc. Please don't mix up the two.   Large Buses belong to the Commercial Vehicles category unlike Passenger Cars.   Passenger Cars will roll off the Assembly Line of the Car Manufacturer and carry the marquee accordingly. Large Buses need not.   Bus Body Building is a connected but completely different operation from the Manufacture of the Drive Train Aggregates (Engine, Gear-Box, Axles) which go as essential components in the Bus. Bus Body Building is a specialised field in itself.   Globally, not very many manufacturer's of the Drive Train of Buses themselves have an In-House Bus Body Building operation. There is a lot of Job-Work required in building of Buses. It is labour intensive. Even with the same Drive Train there would be multiple versions of Buses depending on specific requirements.   Commercial Vehicle Manufacturer's therefore have on call the capacity of specialised Bus Body Builders for the manufacture of Buses to whom they would supply the Aggregates of the Drive Train or a complete Chassis Platform. This capacity could be captive capacity.   Both TATA and AL have such arrangements with Bus Body Builders even if the Buses might be finally sold as TATA or AL Buses. How and where do you think the TATA and AL Buses supplied this far were built? Certainly not in the TATA or AL factory.   In addition to this TATAs also have an In-House capacity for Bus Building.   It is therefore idiotic of Sunita Narain to whine that "Tata company, ......... does not possess the capacity to build the buses cities need."   It is not reasonable, is it, to project a quantum rise in the future demand of Buses in a scenario of ".....if more BRT corridors are to come up and the quantities that would be a requisite for a paradigm shift in urban transport were to be demanded" and then declare inadequate today's capacity to deliver Buses in the future. If there is a firm requirement in 'the future' the manufacturer's will accordingly increase their capacities for that future.   Just as an indicator, the Lead Time for delivery against any negotiated order for Buses could easily be 1 year or more.   The cost for expansion in capacity for Bus Building is minuscule when compared to a similar quantum expansion in the capacity for manufacture of Cars which requires substantially large capital investment in Plant & Machinery. To present it very simplified, primarily Additional Space, Additional Material and Additional Labour are required. The heaviest investment would be for a Paint Shop if the capacity of the current one is inadequate.   Globally, Large Buses are never sold Ex-Showroom (except in extremely small markets). Large Buses are sold against Firm Orders. So, I do not know what you mean by "not much incentive for the companies to develop such capacity". If there are Firm Orders, capacities will easily be developed.   In this connection you have also written "The possibility has been explored in the past,...". Would you please share what possibilities have been explored and with whom and on the basis of what.   Kshmendra   --- On Wed, 4/8/09, siddharth sareen wrote: From: siddharth sareen Subject: Re: [Reader-list] The world’s cheapest car? To: kshmendra2005 at yahoo.com Cc: "Rahul Asthana" , "Sarai Reader List" Date: Wednesday, April 8, 2009, 8:19 PM Actually, that particular point is a fairly true reflection of the real state of affairs. Tata and Ashok Leyland are the two major private players in the country who have any capacity whatsoever to build buses, but their plant capacity is severely limited and nowhere near the kind of numbers we'd need, especially if more BRT corridors are to come up and the quantities that would be a requisite for a paradigm shift in urban transport were to be demanded. The possibility has been explored in the past, but there's not much incentive for the companies to develop such capacity, as compared to faster delivery of more cars. Best On Wed, Apr 8, 2009 at 8:06 PM, Kshmendra Kaul wrote: Dear Rahul   NANO or no NANO, for many on this List, Gujrat, TATA and India are all a NO-NO in which there cannot be any good aspects.   What has surprised me though is that someone like Sunita Narain (otherwise deserving of admiration) should say something as downright stupid and ill-informed as :   """""" Think also that the same Tata company, that has managed to roll out the car of our dreams in record time, does not possess the capacity to build the buses cities need. """"""   In fact much of the tone and content of this piece by her makes me wonder whether she is going the "BLOWBACK" Arundhati Roy way of display of abject superficiality of intellect. That would be sad.     Kshmendra     --- On Wed, 4/8/09, Rahul Asthana wrote: From: Rahul Asthana Subject: Re: [Reader-list] The world’s cheapest car? To: "Sanjay Kak" , "Rakesh Iyer" Cc: "Sarai Reader List" Date: Wednesday, April 8, 2009, 7:14 PM The writer doesn't take into account the intangibles accruing to Gujarat,Tata and India from this project. --- On Wed, 4/8/09, Rakesh Iyer wrote: > From: Rakesh Iyer > Subject: Re: [Reader-list] The world’s cheapest car? > To: "Sanjay Kak" > Cc: "Sarai Reader List" > Date: Wednesday, April 8, 2009, 5:01 PM > And instead of criticizing such subsidies, we have people > who instead > justify Modi's far-sightedness in bringing about > industrial > development to Gujarat. A very important article, and I > feel not only > this, but other kinds of data regarding pollution need to > be brought > in, so also the deteriorating effects these private > vehicles are > having on our health system. > > It would have been better had the Gujarat government had > instead > subsidized some public vehicle making plant, as that would > have > benefited all. Instead our governments are ready to do what > the US > govt generally does, bend down to the corporates. The day > we all lose > our money like this, probably doles would be given to > people without > guarantee to continue this capitalist system. And we will > go down the > drain sooner or later like the US has if we continue with > this. > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to > reader-list-request at sarai.net with subscribe in the subject > header. > To unsubscribe: > https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: > _________________________________________ reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. Critiques & Collaborations To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with subscribe in the subject header. To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list List archive: _________________________________________ reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. Critiques & Collaborations To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with subscribe in the subject header. To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list List archive: -- Siddharth. From 2tahamehmood at googlemail.com Thu Apr 9 18:47:15 2009 From: 2tahamehmood at googlemail.com (Taha Mehmood) Date: Thu, 09 Apr 2009 14:17:15 +0100 Subject: [Reader-list] What after MNIC? The MIND, the final frontier. In-Reply-To: <982573.60210.qm@web57208.mail.re3.yahoo.com> References: <982573.60210.qm@web57208.mail.re3.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <49DDF55B.4040407@gmail.com> Dear Kshmendra Your reply surprises me even more, for in my postings not only have I never mentioned anywhere that MNIC would help weed our terrorists but also that, had I mentioned any such preposterous a thing, then I would have certainly reflected the said issue in detail. I am especially observant of the ways in which the social category of a 'terrorist' is formed. The reason why it surprises me is because of all the persons who might have interpreted my posting I would not have ever imagined you to read them in such a manner. Further more in all my postings, I have tried to raise questions which might help us think through the most fundamental question- what do we mean by MNIC. In this regard I have time and again tried to illustrate by the way of specific examples and by broad theoretical conceptualizations that it appears as if, the notion central to MNIC card , like that of identity is fundamentally unresolved. I find the idea of MNIC with its unresolved core quite a curious case and to equate it to this seemingly bizzare technology is indeed uncalled for. Therefore could I hope that in all future forwards to this list, you would exercise some restraint before drawing any unwarranted co-relationships? Regards Taha Kshmendra Kaul wrote: > Dear Taha > > Your question surprises me. I would have presumed that you have read > your own postings on this List regarding MNIC. > > One of the premises on which the support for MNIC is based is that it > will help weed out terrorists. A physical identity mapping. > > This reported attempt to develop "human cognitive" technology also > presumes that it will help weed out terrorists. A Mind mapping. > > Kshmendra > > > > --- On *Thu, 4/9/09, Taha Mehmood /<2tahamehmood at googlemail.com>/* wrote: > > From: Taha Mehmood <2tahamehmood at googlemail.com> > Subject: Re: [Reader-list] What after MNIC? The MIND, the final > frontier. > To: kshmendra2005 at yahoo.com, "reader-list" > Date: Thursday, April 9, 2009, 12:18 AM > > Dear Kshmendra (and All) > > This is with respect to your post. Could you please explain what has the > development of this new technology got to do with National Identity Cards > because on the face to it, they seem like two un-related events. I would be more > than happy to benefit from your insights. > > Regards > > Taha > > > > > From rakesh.rnbdj at gmail.com Thu Apr 9 19:04:31 2009 From: rakesh.rnbdj at gmail.com (Rakesh Iyer) Date: Thu, 9 Apr 2009 19:04:31 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] =?windows-1252?q?The_world=92s_cheapest_car=3F?= In-Reply-To: <933606.93646.qm@web57208.mail.re3.yahoo.com> References: <516b63a90904080749r3f847747labb0abf64cfe329a@mail.gmail.com> <933606.93646.qm@web57208.mail.re3.yahoo.com> Message-ID: Dear all In connection to the kind of posts coming up, we have to look up at certain things, which have to be assessed before going in with the car as a marker of our development. I have certain questions which I feel have to be genuinely answered, before this debate can be carried further, some of which are numerical based, and some of which are subjective in nature: 1) Which mode of transport (car or bus; or for that matter public or private mode of transport) is used the most by people of our cities? If necessary, a break up of the people using different modes of transport has to be introduced. 2) What is the share of these vehicles plying on the roads, in percentages? 3) Why do people use a particular mode of transport? Is it the lack of money, is it comfort or is it safety, or is it just the speed, or a combination of these? Which are the important factors here? 4) More importantly, why do people prefer private modes of transport. After all, it's not for nothing that people prefer private vehicles even in cities like Mumbai and Chennai which have fairly well developed means of public transport. Then what makes them take it? 5) What are the limits upto which these can be tolerated, considering that infrastructure building in terms of roads for such huge number of vehicles is a budgetary constraint, and moreover can't be built beyond a point. People in and around me from large cities have complained of roads choking like hell, so is this an issue with improper management of roads, or are there too many private vehicles plying on the road? 6) Finally, what are the costs these private and public vehicles impose on society. And to what extent can we tolerate these costs. These are some of the issues we have to look at. The article posted gave one particular insight into these issues. Instead of practising cat-fights amongst one another, I feel it would be much better to look into such issues and more if required, to decide for ourselves whether we should allow private transport to grow like this, or may be it's really the time for 'change', as Barrack Obama says. Regards Rakesh From vivek at sarai.net Thu Apr 9 19:16:42 2009 From: vivek at sarai.net (Vivek Narayanan) Date: Thu, 09 Apr 2009 19:16:42 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] What after MNIC? The MIND, the final frontier. In-Reply-To: <376728.44175.qm@web57201.mail.re3.yahoo.com> References: <376728.44175.qm@web57201.mail.re3.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <49DDFC42.5060209@sarai.net> Dear Kshemendra, You talk of Sunita Narain being ill-informed and having a superficial intellect, and then this--which suggests, to me, how easy it is to pull a fast one on you! Do you believe this project, in the way it's being promoted in this article, has any concrete scientific basis at all? How close do you think our brave scientists are to developing a mind-reading technology? And how exactly would they go about telling a non-terrorist brain from a terrorist one? Perhaps you think that in a couple of years time, Indian scientists will be able to plug a couple of electrodes into a suspected terrorist and have the story of his life play for them on a screen, like a hollywood movie? Go and investigate what and how much qualified neuroscientists today actually understand about the brain and get back to me on this one. And I do hope, when they've cracked it, that they don't look into your brain and find-- despite your protests-- that you have a little terrorist hiding inside. Thanks vivek Kshmendra Kaul wrote: > > > India developing technology to read terrorist's mind > Agencies Posted: Apr 07, 2009 at 1255 hrs > > Bangalore In what could help building better strategy for anti-terror mechanism in the country, the Department of Science and Technology is facilitating a group of bright scientists to develop a complex human cognitive technology which would allow reading the mind of a terrorist. > > At the same time, scientists are also developing sensors that would detect hidden devices. As many as 30 groups are involved in the initiative, part of homeland security, said Secretary in the Department of Science and Technology, T Ramasami. > > The idea is to integrate the technology and sensors to nail down terrorists, he said. > The Department is funding the programme, which has been taken up on a consortium model, Ramasami said, adding, he is requesting Indian Institute of Science, Bangalore, to lead the teams. > > "People who understand language, linguistics and people who look at nuclear magnetic resonance...they have come together to really understand the human cognition associated with the linguistic language processes in the mind," he said. > > "This would really involve people from highly different disciplines including social sciences and humanities to people who understand physics in this mechanism." > > http://www.expressindia.com/latest-news/India-developing-technology-to-read-terrorists-mind/444166/ > > > > > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with subscribe in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> From kshmendra2005 at yahoo.com Thu Apr 9 19:41:19 2009 From: kshmendra2005 at yahoo.com (Kshmendra Kaul) Date: Thu, 9 Apr 2009 07:11:19 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Reader-list] What after MNIC? The MIND, the final frontier. In-Reply-To: <49DDF55B.4040407@gmail.com> Message-ID: <57110.64718.qm@web57204.mail.re3.yahoo.com> Dear Taha   If past experiences with you were not enough and I needed confirmation on the bizzare nature of your personality, you have just provided it.   You obviously did not read properly what I wrote and it appears that you do not read what you yourself post.   My words were "One of the premises on which the support for MNIC is based is that it will help weed out terrorists. A physical identity mapping."   Did I say that Taha supports the MNIC or that Taha holds the premise that MNIC will weed out terrorists. Read properly what I have written and then decide whether you are justified in the content and tone of your response to me.   Doesnt a premise exist in the country that the "MNIC will help weed out terrorists"? Have you yourself not spoken about this premise. That does not mean that you subscribe to it and neither have I attributed it as so.    For confirmation : http://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/2009-January/017420.html   Your responses to my postings seem to be triggered by some preconcieved notions about me and prejudices aghainst me that prevent you from thinking or speaking rationally. Your problem, not mine.   I must be one of the very few people on this List who read every single one of your MNIC postings. Read not scan through. MNIC fascinates me even as it disturbs me.   I would have further commented on the co-relationships that do exist in the premises regarding 'weeding out terrorists' in both the MNIC and the "human cognitive' technology, but you Sir are a Closed Mind. Why waste your time and mine.   Kshmendra. --- On Thu, 4/9/09, Taha Mehmood <2tahamehmood at googlemail.com> wrote: From: Taha Mehmood <2tahamehmood at googlemail.com> Subject: Re: [Reader-list] What after MNIC? The MIND, the final frontier. To: kshmendra2005 at yahoo.com Cc: "reader-list" , "Taha Mehmood" <2tahamehmood at googlemail.com> Date: Thursday, April 9, 2009, 6:47 PM Dear Kshmendra Your reply surprises me even more, for in my postings not only have I never mentioned anywhere that MNIC would help weed our terrorists but also that, had I mentioned any such preposterous a thing, then I would have certainly reflected the said issue in detail. I am especially observant of the ways in which the social category of a 'terrorist' is formed. The reason why it surprises me is because of all the persons who might have interpreted my posting I would not have ever imagined you to read them in such a manner. Further more in all my postings, I have tried to raise questions which might help us think through the most fundamental question- what do we mean by MNIC. In this regard I have time and again tried to illustrate by the way of specific examples and by broad theoretical conceptualizations that it appears as if, the notion central to MNIC card , like that of identity is fundamentally unresolved. I find the idea of MNIC with its unresolved core quite a curious case and to equate it to this seemingly bizzare technology is indeed uncalled for. Therefore could I hope that in all future forwards to this list, you would exercise some restraint before drawing any unwarranted co-relationships? Regards Taha Kshmendra Kaul wrote: > Dear Taha > Your question surprises me. I would have presumed that you have read your own postings on this List regarding MNIC. > One of the premises on which the support for MNIC is based is that it will help weed out terrorists. A physical identity mapping. > This reported attempt to develop "human cognitive" technology also presumes that it will help weed out terrorists. A Mind mapping. > Kshmendra > > --- On *Thu, 4/9/09, Taha Mehmood /<2tahamehmood at googlemail.com>/* wrote: > > From: Taha Mehmood <2tahamehmood at googlemail.com> > Subject: Re: [Reader-list] What after MNIC? The MIND, the final > frontier. > To: kshmendra2005 at yahoo.com, "reader-list" > Date: Thursday, April 9, 2009, 12:18 AM > > Dear Kshmendra (and All) > > This is with respect to your post. Could you please explain what has the > development of this new technology got to do with National Identity Cards > because on the face to it, they seem like two un-related events. I would be more > than happy to benefit from your insights. > > Regards > > Taha > > > > From kshmendra2005 at yahoo.com Thu Apr 9 20:05:02 2009 From: kshmendra2005 at yahoo.com (Kshmendra Kaul) Date: Thu, 9 Apr 2009 07:35:02 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Reader-list] What after MNIC? The MIND, the final frontier. In-Reply-To: <49DDFC42.5060209@sarai.net> Message-ID: <259054.73352.qm@web57204.mail.re3.yahoo.com> Dear Vivek   Apart from your frothing, there isnt much sense in what you have written.   It was a News Report being reproduced. I did not editorialise it with my judgements. So you have no way of knowing what I think of the report. Your presumptions about my thoughts on the basis of which you have asked me questions, are therefore foolish.    As an analogy, if you were to post a News Report about some development or claimed development (not neccessarily one connected with science only) it would not mean that you Vivek automatically subscribe to or agree with the contents of that News Report. Does that sound logical? If it is then you will recognise your own foolishness in what you have written to me.   Incidentally, the News Report has mention of the fascinating topic of Language, Linguistics and Nuclear Magnetic Resonance (Applied Psycholinguistics). You will enjoy reading up on it. I am sure.   Kshmendra   --- On Thu, 4/9/09, Vivek Narayanan wrote: From: Vivek Narayanan Subject: Re: [Reader-list] What after MNIC? The MIND, the final frontier. To: kshmendra2005 at yahoo.com Cc: "sarai list" , 2tahamehmood at googlemail.com Date: Thursday, April 9, 2009, 7:16 PM Dear Kshemendra, You talk of Sunita Narain being ill-informed and having a superficial intellect, and then this--which suggests, to me, how easy it is to pull a fast one on you! Do you believe this project, in the way it's being promoted in this article, has any concrete scientific basis at all? How close do you think our brave scientists are to developing a mind-reading technology? And how exactly would they go about telling a non-terrorist brain from a terrorist one? Perhaps you think that in a couple of years time, Indian scientists will be able to plug a couple of electrodes into a suspected terrorist and have the story of his life play for them on a screen, like a hollywood movie? Go and investigate what and how much qualified neuroscientists today actually understand about the brain and get back to me on this one. And I do hope, when they've cracked it, that they don't look into your brain and find-- despite your protests-- that you have a little terrorist hiding inside. Thanks vivek Kshmendra Kaul wrote: > > India developing technology to read terrorist's mind > Agencies Posted: Apr 07, 2009 at 1255 hrs > Bangalore In what could help building better strategy for anti-terror mechanism in the country, the Department of Science and Technology is facilitating a group of bright scientists to develop a complex human cognitive technology which would allow reading the mind of a terrorist. At the same time, scientists are also developing sensors that would detect hidden devices. As many as 30 groups are involved in the initiative, part of homeland security, said Secretary in the Department of Science and Technology, T Ramasami. The idea is to integrate the technology and sensors to nail down terrorists, he said. The Department is funding the programme, which has been taken up on a consortium model, Ramasami said, adding, he is requesting Indian Institute of Science, Bangalore, to lead the teams. "People who understand language, linguistics and people who look at nuclear magnetic resonance...they have come together to really understand the human cognition associated with the linguistic language processes in the mind," he said. "This would really involve people from highly different disciplines including social sciences and humanities to people who understand physics in this mechanism." http://www.expressindia.com/latest-news/India-developing-technology-to-read-terrorists-mind/444166/ > > > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with subscribe in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> From indersalim at gmail.com Thu Apr 9 20:54:22 2009 From: indersalim at gmail.com (Inder Salim) Date: Thu, 9 Apr 2009 20:54:22 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] The world's cheapest car In-Reply-To: <6b79f1a70904082144j1662a11ex786d6a23b8edee4d@mail.gmail.com> References: <47e122a70904081251x2547fa22ta6e8761e580c9da4@mail.gmail.com> <6b79f1a70904082144j1662a11ex786d6a23b8edee4d@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <47e122a70904090824h292cf0d5pe3c653b546e101c8@mail.gmail.com> http://pics.livejournal.com/indersalim/pic/000hw85s/ may be dear pawan ji this image might generate some laughter and even this http://pics.livejournal.com/indersalim/pic/000httg8 with love is On Thu, Apr 9, 2009 at 10:14 AM, Pawan Durani wrote: > Lal Salaam ke liye "Angoor Khatte Hai"..... > > On Thu, Apr 9, 2009 at 1:21 AM, Inder Salim wrote: >> >> Dear all, >> >>  I quote Marianne Knuth We are warped and narrowed, by an exclusive >> devotion to trade and commerce…. >> >>  If we are unwilling to listen to an existentialist’s view on what is >> Life’s core purpose of being, then we have no choice but to quote >> Rattan Tata. >> >> I believe Rattan Tata has nothing to declare except his devotion to >> Trade and Commerce.  I just happen to be on the Existentialist’s side. >>  One is free to be, but is Tata  ready to think about you beyond his >> ‘profitability’ factor.  I am afraid, NOT. >> >> Where I am working, I am telling you from first hand experience, all >> the entrepreneurs in India are big defaulters. They have virtually >> crippled the Financial sector, almost, and at the same time have >> deeply invested in the Private Sector, but it real estate or direct >> investment. >> >>  The time has never been so good for these defaulters to cultivate the >> cream of Indian economy simply by coming closer to Bureaucrats, >> Judiciary and political circles.  Examples are galore, one is >> surprised to see how easy in India is to acquire land. How cheap is >> Zameen, Do bigha,  of which was the umbilical cord of a small farmer, >> or a possibility for landless to get their piece of land, but alas, >> this Indian part of IWC ( Integrated World Capitalism ) we see how >> brazenly the appropriation of this Governmental land has happened. Now >> even if there is political assertion, there is no land to be >> distributed to the land less, and oppressed of the our society. The >> rich people have encroached upon this people’s land. Of course , >> legally. >> >> It is true People like cars, but the saner voices in Developed World >> ( west ) see the car as a sign  of ugliness. >> >>  But here in India, when there are ten thousand reasons to save the >> society from other ills, I wont be surprised if Rattan Tata is chosen >> for Bharat Rattan, the heights Indian Award for excellence, next year >> for launching Nano.  Ha >> >> But has there been any debate for environmental degradation which his >> company and other such monsters have caused to our dear earth.  The >> debate will never be initiated, simply because there is a deep nexus. >> Is there a way to fix the responsibility.  Here, I am too pessimistic. >> >> I might digress a little by sharing my personal experience about Tata >> Telephone. Before I had this present MTNL BroadBand I had one Tata >> connection. They charged me Rs.0.40 per minute, but the connection was >>  terribly slow  and I had to lodge a complaint.  Finally after many >> many phone calls I happened to talk one of the Tata guys ( he told me >> so, but I doubt ) about the reasons of slow connectivity. He replied >> it is just like that, but I said, look my dear Manager, I am being >> charged for the duration I am on the net through your company, (Tata) >> , but what do I get if after one hour I barely manage to open just a >> page or so. >> >> He said, sorry. But this ‘sorry’ story was not about one person. They >> had given connections to millions without buying sufficient band width >> from the Government, This is what I understand, that how these >> companies rob a commoner by simply saying it is slow, just slow. >> Please be patient. But they earn millions without giving anything >> back. >> >> So when Nano will be on the roads, and if you are late in office >> because of terrible traffic jams, do we expect to say our bosses, >> please be patient, the roads are narrow, but we have millions of >> colourful Nanos on the roads. >> >>  Or, do I expect Rattan Tata to explain why I am late to office. >> Unfortunately, now I have  to start one hour early, to arrive  office >> in time. >> >> So what is net gain ? >> >> with love and regards >> inder salim >> >> >> -- >> >> http://indersalim.livejournal.com >> _________________________________________ >> reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. >> Critiques & Collaborations >> To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with >> subscribe in the subject header. >> To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list >> List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> > -- http://indersalim.livejournal.com From 2tahamehmood at googlemail.com Thu Apr 9 21:22:26 2009 From: 2tahamehmood at googlemail.com (Taha Mehmood) Date: Thu, 09 Apr 2009 16:52:26 +0100 Subject: [Reader-list] What after MNIC? The MIND, the final frontier. In-Reply-To: <57110.64718.qm@web57204.mail.re3.yahoo.com> References: <57110.64718.qm@web57204.mail.re3.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <49DE19BA.3020803@gmail.com> Dear Kshmendra I think the only thing that comes to my mind is a Hindi maxim which goes on like this- Khisyani billi khamba noche!!! lol Taha From lalitambardar at hotmail.com Thu Apr 9 21:49:19 2009 From: lalitambardar at hotmail.com (Lalit Ambardar) Date: Thu, 9 Apr 2009 16:19:19 +0000 Subject: [Reader-list] The world's cheapest car....prejudice..??.. In-Reply-To: <47e122a70904081251x2547fa22ta6e8761e580c9da4@mail.gmail.com> References: <47e122a70904081251x2547fa22ta6e8761e580c9da4@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: True ,the mother earth is indeed paying a heavy cost for the man's quest for 'development' & 'comfort'. But it is hoped that 'Nano' & 'Ratan Tata' have not been picked up for the subject matter because Narendra Modi offered Gujrat for the production.After all it (the nano) was to take birth in the communist backyard only. Regards all LA ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > Date: Thu, 9 Apr 2009 01:21:38 +0530 > From: indersalim at gmail.com > To: reader-list at sarai.net > Subject: Re: [Reader-list] The world's cheapest car > > Dear all, > > I quote Marianne Knuth We are warped and narrowed, by an exclusive > devotion to trade and commerce…. > > If we are unwilling to listen to an existentialist’s view on what is > Life’s core purpose of being, then we have no choice but to quote > Rattan Tata. > > I believe Rattan Tata has nothing to declare except his devotion to > Trade and Commerce. I just happen to be on the Existentialist’s side. > One is free to be, but is Tata ready to think about you beyond his > ‘profitability’ factor. I am afraid, NOT. > > Where I am working, I am telling you from first hand experience, all > the entrepreneurs in India are big defaulters. They have virtually > crippled the Financial sector, almost, and at the same time have > deeply invested in the Private Sector, but it real estate or direct > investment. > > The time has never been so good for these defaulters to cultivate the > cream of Indian economy simply by coming closer to Bureaucrats, > Judiciary and political circles. Examples are galore, one is > surprised to see how easy in India is to acquire land. How cheap is > Zameen, Do bigha, of which was the umbilical cord of a small farmer, > or a possibility for landless to get their piece of land, but alas, > this Indian part of IWC ( Integrated World Capitalism ) we see how > brazenly the appropriation of this Governmental land has happened. Now > even if there is political assertion, there is no land to be > distributed to the land less, and oppressed of the our society. The > rich people have encroached upon this people’s land. Of course , > legally. > > It is true People like cars, but the saner voices in Developed World > ( west ) see the car as a sign of ugliness. > > But here in India, when there are ten thousand reasons to save the > society from other ills, I wont be surprised if Rattan Tata is chosen > for Bharat Rattan, the heights Indian Award for excellence, next year > for launching Nano. Ha > > But has there been any debate for environmental degradation which his > company and other such monsters have caused to our dear earth. The > debate will never be initiated, simply because there is a deep nexus. > Is there a way to fix the responsibility. Here, I am too pessimistic. > > I might digress a little by sharing my personal experience about Tata > Telephone. Before I had this present MTNL BroadBand I had one Tata > connection. They charged me Rs.0.40 per minute, but the connection was > terribly slow and I had to lodge a complaint. Finally after many > many phone calls I happened to talk one of the Tata guys ( he told me > so, but I doubt ) about the reasons of slow connectivity. He replied > it is just like that, but I said, look my dear Manager, I am being > charged for the duration I am on the net through your company, (Tata) > , but what do I get if after one hour I barely manage to open just a > page or so. > > He said, sorry. But this ‘sorry’ story was not about one person. They > had given connections to millions without buying sufficient band width > from the Government, This is what I understand, that how these > companies rob a commoner by simply saying it is slow, just slow. > Please be patient. But they earn millions without giving anything > back. > > So when Nano will be on the roads, and if you are late in office > because of terrible traffic jams, do we expect to say our bosses, > please be patient, the roads are narrow, but we have millions of > colourful Nanos on the roads. > > Or, do I expect Rattan Tata to explain why I am late to office. > Unfortunately, now I have to start one hour early, to arrive office > in time. > > So what is net gain ? > > with love and regards > inder salim > > > -- > > http://indersalim.livejournal.com > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with subscribe in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> _________________________________________________________________ Twice the fun—Share photos while you chat with Windows Live Messenger. http://www.microsoft.com/india/windows/windowslive/messenger.aspx From 2tahamehmood at googlemail.com Thu Apr 9 22:05:24 2009 From: 2tahamehmood at googlemail.com (Taha Mehmood) Date: Thu, 09 Apr 2009 17:35:24 +0100 Subject: [Reader-list] What after MNIC? The MIND, the final frontier. In-Reply-To: <57110.64718.qm@web57204.mail.re3.yahoo.com> References: <57110.64718.qm@web57204.mail.re3.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <49DE23CC.9080305@gmail.com> Dear Khsmendra Thank you for your post. Please allow me to reply with utmost sincerity the most well thought out and valid points raised in your post. 1. In the mail below, you state-Did I say that Taha supports the MNIC or that Taha holds the premise that MNIC will weed out terrorists. In the mail, below the mail below, you state- I would have presumed that you have read your own postings on this List regarding MNIC. One of the premises on which the support for MNIC is based is that it will help weed out terrorists. - So it seems that YES you did mean, inadvertently perhaps, that I support an outrageous premise the MNIC would be used to help weed out terrorist, since there seems to be no other person, in the recent past, who have consistently posted on and about MNIC as I have. And for the sake of clarity please allow me to state -I have never, I REPEAT, I HAVE NEVER ever, uttered that MNIC could be used to weed out terrorists. That would deplorable on my part. 2. You state- Doesnt a premise exist in the country that the "MNIC will help weed out terrorists"? Have you yourself not spoken about this premise. That does not mean that you subscribe to it and neither have I attributed it as so. For confirmation : http://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/2009-January/017420.html I most humbly thank you for providing the link and I would be very grateful if you could kindly go through the post and then share it with members of the reader list, which reasonably proves, that I have indeed written a fantastically imagined premise that 'MNIC is indeed needed to weed out terrorists'. On earlier occasions, I have made everyone known that in so far as my position on MNIC is concerned being an Indian citizen, if my government choose to provide for a MNIC card, then I will also have one. But please rest assured in all these four years, had I ever read, sensed or concluded by a cursory or a detailed reading of papers related to MNIC, that MNIC is also going to be used to weed out terrorists, then, I would have used every conceivable way to reasonably argue against such a card. The reason being thus- A statement which contends that, 'MNIC will be used to weed out terrorists' assumes, that it is known to the members of the state, who all will reasonably come under the category of 'Terrorist'. Thus any person who satisfies all the criteria of being a 'Terrorist' may be reasonably granted the status of a 'Terrorist' but as we all know that 'Terrorist' is a highly unclear category. There does not exist a clear definition of the term. There is a lot of scope for categorical slippage. Therefore no government agency anywhere in this world has thus far made an audaciously foolish proposal to capture 'Terrorists' while using a biometric National identity card. Although it may not be ruled that as far as the realm of fantasy is concerned there might be exist many deranged officials out there who might be thinking of subjecting the national identity card regime to such a use. It gives me utmost satisfaction to know that there exists at least one person on this list who is a regular reader of my posts, I, with, bowed hands am grateful to you, however, I think, it would bring me all the more joy, if you could, not only read but deduce reasonably, my rather inarticulate sketches on the proposed Multiple purpose National Identity Card. Warm regards Taha Kshmendra Kaul wrote: > Dear Taha > > If past experiences with you were not enough and I needed confirmation > on the bizzare nature of your personality, you have just provided it. > > You obviously did not read properly what I wrote and it appears that > you do not read what you yourself post. > > My words were "One of the premises on which the support for MNIC is > based is that it > will help weed out terrorists. A physical identity mapping." > > Did I say that Taha supports the MNIC or that Taha holds the premise > that MNIC will weed out terrorists. Read properly what I have written > and then decide whether you are justified in the content and tone of > your response to me. > > Doesnt a premise exist in the country that the "MNIC will help weed > out terrorists"? Have you yourself not spoken about this premise. That > does not mean that you subscribe to it and neither have I attributed > it as so. > > For confirmation : > http://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/2009-January/017420.html > > Your responses to my postings seem to be triggered by some > preconcieved notions about me and prejudices aghainst me that prevent > you from thinking or speaking rationally. Your problem, not mine. > > I must be one of the very few people on this List who read every > single one of your MNIC postings. Read not scan through. MNIC > fascinates me even as it disturbs me. > > I would have further commented on the co-relationships that do > exist in the premises regarding 'weeding out terrorists' in both the > MNIC and the "human cognitive' technology, but you Sir are a Closed > Mind. Why waste your time and mine. > > Kshmendra. > > > --- On *Thu, 4/9/09, Taha Mehmood /<2tahamehmood at googlemail.com>/* wrote: > > From: Taha Mehmood <2tahamehmood at googlemail.com> > Subject: Re: [Reader-list] What after MNIC? The MIND, the final > frontier. > To: kshmendra2005 at yahoo.com > Cc: "reader-list" , "Taha Mehmood" > <2tahamehmood at googlemail.com> > Date: Thursday, April 9, 2009, 6:47 PM > > Dear Kshmendra > > Your reply surprises me even more, for in my postings not only have I never > mentioned anywhere that MNIC would help weed our terrorists but also that, had I > mentioned any such preposterous a thing, then I would have certainly reflected > the said issue in detail. > > I am especially observant of the ways in which the social category of a > 'terrorist' is formed. > > The reason why it surprises me is because of all the persons who might have > interpreted my posting I would not have ever imagined you to read them in such a > manner. > > Further more in all my postings, I have tried to raise questions which might > help us think through the most fundamental question- what do we mean by MNIC. In > this regard I have time and again tried to illustrate by the way of specific > examples and by broad theoretical conceptualizations that it appears as if, > the notion central to MNIC card , like that of identity is fundamentally > unresolved. > > I find the idea of MNIC with its unresolved core quite a curious case and to > equate it to this seemingly bizzare technology is indeed uncalled for. Therefore > could I hope that in all future forwards to this list, you would exercise some > restraint before drawing any unwarranted co-relationships? > > Regards > > Taha > > > Kshmendra Kaul wrote: > > Dear Taha > > Your question surprises me. I would have presumed that you have read your > own postings on this List regarding MNIC. > > One of the premises on which the support for MNIC is based is that it > will help weed out terrorists. A physical identity mapping. > > This reported attempt to develop "human cognitive" technology > also presumes that it will help weed out terrorists. A Mind mapping. > > Kshmendra > > > > --- On *Thu, 4/9/09, Taha Mehmood /<2tahamehmood at googlemail.com>/* > wrote: > > > > From: Taha Mehmood <2tahamehmood at googlemail.com> > > Subject: Re: [Reader-list] What after MNIC? The MIND, the final > > frontier. > > To: kshmendra2005 at yahoo.com, "reader-list" > > > Date: Thursday, April 9, 2009, 12:18 AM > > > > Dear Kshmendra (and All) > > > > This is with respect to your post. Could you please explain what has > the > > development of this new technology got to do with National Identity > Cards > > because on the face to it, they seem like two un-related events. I > would be more > > than happy to benefit from your insights. > > > > Regards > > > > Taha > > > > > > > > > > > From vivek at sarai.net Thu Apr 9 22:17:04 2009 From: vivek at sarai.net (Vivek Narayanan) Date: Thu, 09 Apr 2009 22:17:04 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] What after MNIC? The MIND, the final frontier. In-Reply-To: <259054.73352.qm@web57204.mail.re3.yahoo.com> References: <259054.73352.qm@web57204.mail.re3.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <49DE2688.9060405@sarai.net> Dear Kshemendra, Phew! Thank goodness. Now do editorialise and judge a bit and tell me what you actually think of the "News Report". Don't be shy now. Utter poppycock, I hope? As for Applied Psycholinguistics and Nuclear Magnetic Resonance (doesn't the sci-fi sound of the latter term get you hot and bothered?)-- yes, brain mapping is used extensively and people are learning a lot more than they knew before-- but none of the "applications" are of any help with terrorism! I'm afraid that neuroscience has even fewer insights into the nature of terrorism than you do. Thanks for the clarification! I wouldn't want to think less of you just because you posted such an ill-informed article without comment. Vivek Kshmendra Kaul wrote: > Dear Vivek > > Apart from your frothing, there isnt much sense in what you have written. > > It was a News Report being reproduced. I did not editorialise it with > my judgements. So you have no way of knowing what I think of the > report. Your presumptions about my thoughts on the basis of which you > have asked me questions, are therefore foolish. > > As an analogy, if you were to post a News Report about some > development or claimed development (not neccessarily one connected > with science only) it would not mean that you Vivek automatically > subscribe to or agree with the contents of that News Report. Does that > sound logical? If it is then you will recognise your own foolishness > in what you have written to me. > > Incidentally, the News Report has mention of the fascinating topic of > Language, Linguistics and Nuclear Magnetic Resonance (Applied > Psycholinguistics). You will enjoy reading up on it. I am sure. > > Kshmendra > > > --- On *Thu, 4/9/09, Vivek Narayanan //* wrote: > > From: Vivek Narayanan > Subject: Re: [Reader-list] What after MNIC? The MIND, the final > frontier. > To: kshmendra2005 at yahoo.com > Cc: "sarai list" , 2tahamehmood at googlemail.com > Date: Thursday, April 9, 2009, 7:16 PM > > Dear Kshemendra, > > You talk of Sunita Narain being ill-informed and having a superficial > intellect, and then this--which suggests, to me, how easy it is to pull a fast > one on you! > Do you believe this project, in the way it's being promoted in this > article, has any concrete scientific basis at all? How close do you think our > brave scientists are to developing a mind-reading technology? And how exactly > would they go about telling a non-terrorist brain from a terrorist one? > Perhaps you think that in a couple of years time, Indian scientists will be > able to plug a couple of electrodes into a suspected terrorist and have the > story of his life play for them on a screen, like a hollywood movie? > > Go and investigate what and how much qualified neuroscientists today actually > understand about the brain and get back to me on this one. > And I do hope, when they've cracked it, that they don't look into your > brain and find-- despite your protests-- that you have a little terrorist hiding > inside. > > Thanks > vivek > > Kshmendra Kaul wrote: > > > > India developing technology to read terrorist's mind > > Agencies Posted: Apr 07, 2009 at 1255 hrs > > Bangalore In what could help building better strategy for anti-terror > mechanism in the country, the Department of Science and Technology is > facilitating a group of bright scientists to develop a complex human cognitive > technology which would allow reading the mind of a terrorist. At the same time, > scientists are also developing sensors that would detect hidden devices. As many > as 30 groups are involved in the initiative, part of homeland security, said > Secretary in the Department of Science and Technology, T Ramasami. The idea is > to integrate the technology and sensors to nail down terrorists, he said. The > Department is funding the programme, which has been taken up on a consortium > model, Ramasami said, adding, he is requesting Indian Institute of Science, > Bangalore, to lead the teams. "People who understand language, linguistics > and people who look at nuclear magnetic resonance...they have come together to > really understand the human cognition associated with the linguistic language > processes in the mind," he said. "This would really involve people > from highly different disciplines including social sciences and humanities to > people who understand physics in this mechanism." > http://www.expressindia.com/latest-news/India-developing-technology-to-read-terrorists-mind/444166/ > > > > > > _________________________________________ > > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > > Critiques & Collaborations > > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > subscribe in the subject header. > > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list List > archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> > > > > > From lalitambardar at hotmail.com Thu Apr 9 22:36:57 2009 From: lalitambardar at hotmail.com (Lalit Ambardar) Date: Thu, 9 Apr 2009 17:06:57 +0000 Subject: [Reader-list] An Appeal on the eve of Forthcoming Elections...available options..??... In-Reply-To: <1f9180970904070536m4f640ba9lb00a129ecd427838@mail.gmail.com> References: <1f9180970904070536m4f640ba9lb00a129ecd427838@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: Whom do we vote for then..????....the following…????... - those who were responsible for the massacre of Sikhs in 1984 ( more Sikhs were butchered in Delhi alone in just three days than total killed in Godhra train carnage & the following riots & police firing on the rioters)…. - those who remained silent when the minority Kashmiri Hindu Pandits were subjected to ethnic cleansing by the jihadis in the valley two decades ago ( this happened long before 2002) or those who continue to remain silent even while Kashmiri Hindu Pandits continue to live with the ignominy of being refugees in their own country…. - those who raised the war cry in the Parliament of India “ hamari zammen ka mudha tha, ham apni zameen ke liye lade aur marte dam tak apni zameen ke liye ladenge” (the issue was about our land, we fought for our land & we will fight for our land till death) against the temporary land allotment along arduous Amaranth pilgrimage, that almost triggered a civil war in J&K or those who thumped the parliament desks in appreciation …… - those who propose joint sovereignty, Pak currency in Kashmir…..or their erstwhile political partners - those who got that self confessed Islamist exonerated through legislation in Kerala & are now collaborating with him in the elections… or those who are conspicuous in their silence over the shocking discovery of Kerala Muslim mujahidin fighting against the Indian security forces in Kashmir…. - those responsible for atrocities against peasants in Nandigram …. - those who are ready to crush their political opponents under road rollers…..??... ……?????....etc…etc……????...... Regards all LA ps: this is not to belittle the tragedy of continued communal disharmony in the country --------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > Date: Tue, 7 Apr 2009 18:06:11 +0530 > From: kmvenuannur at gmail.com > To: reader-list at sarai.net > Subject: Re: [Reader-list] An Appeal on the eve of Forthcoming Elections > > I like to endorse this appeal in letter and spirit. > Thanks, > Venu. > > On Tue, Apr 7, 2009 at 2:38 PM, M Javed wrote: > > An Appeal on the eve of Forthcoming Elections > > > > In recent months and years, we have seen the true face of the BJP and Shiv Sena. > > First, the nation was shocked to discover that a whole string of terrorist > > attacks, some of which had previously been attributed to jihadi groups, had been > > committed by Hindutva terrorists. This came to light during investigations into > > the Malegaon blast of September 2008 led by ATS Chief Hemant Karkare. The > > perpetrators included Hindu religious figures like Sadhvi Pragyasingh Thakur and > > Dayanand Pandey, retired military officers, and serving military officer Lt.Col. > > Srikant Purohit. Instead of denouncing the culprits and demanding that they > > should be punished, BJP and Shiv Sena leaders launched a hate campaign against > > the brave and honest police officer who was carrying out the investigations, > > Hemant Karkare! > > > > Then there were the attacks on Christians in Kandhamal and Karnataka. The > > attacks in Kandhamal in particular went on for months, and even today the > > communities who have been ethnically cleansed have not been able to go back. > > This would not have been possible without collusion from the state governments: > > a BJP ally in one case, the BJP itself in the other. In Karnataka, this was > > followed by brutal attacks on young women which shocked the nation when they > > were caught on camera. They were carried out by the same Sri Ram Sene which had > > attacked churches and Christians, and in one case resulted in the suicide of a > > young girl. These people have correctly been described as ‘the Taliban of > > India,’ due to their violent efforts to enforce their intolerant and > > narrow-minded version of a religion and culture. As usual, the BJP spoke in two > > tongues about these attacks. But actions speak louder than words. The fact that > > such attacks could take place in a BJP-ruled > > state without any action being taken against the criminals showed that the > > party was hand-in-glove with them. > > > > The latest scandal is the hate speech of Varun Gandhi. It is clear for anyone > > who has brains that he actually spoke the words on the tape, and is only > > claiming that they were doctored so that he can get away with his criminal > > words, knowing that legal action against him cannot be completed before the > > elections. Maneka Gandhi made a shameless attempt to start a communal riot by > > alleging that a Muslim police officer was responsible for the firing when he was > > not even present, and alleged ‘genocide’ when not a single person was > > killed! It just shows that Varun learned his communalism as well as his habit of > > lying from his mother. Again, the BJP has supported him. Why should we be > > surprised? Their Prime Ministerial candidate, L.K.Advani, used the same kind of > > language in the build-up to the demolition of the Babri Masjid in 1992 and the > > horrific anti-Muslim massacres which followed. Narendra Modi, who is widely seen > > as the BJP’s future Prime > > Ministerial candidate, used the same language to whip up hatred against Muslims > > after the Godhra tragedy in 2002, resulting in the shameful mass rapes and > > murders that followed in Gujarat. > > > > The BJP’s method of ‘fighting terrorism’ is well illustrated in > > Chhattisgarh. In the name of fighting Maoist terrorists, the BJP state > > government there has set up an illegal paramilitary organisation, Salwa Judum, > > which is engaged in raping and killing innocent women, men and children, burning > > their houses, evicting them from their villages, and putting them into prison > > camps where they are deprived of their freedom. The state government has put > > Binayak Sen, a doctor who has dedicated his life to providing health care to > > poor people, in jail for almost two years, simply because he protested against > > this brutal treatment of the villagers. In the name of fighting terrorism, the > > state itself is engaged in terrorism! > > > > The BJP aims to divide the country, and thus to destroy it. They have no > > positive programme to offer: only hatred and violence. > > > > We are very lucky they were not in power when the terrorist attacks on Mumbai > > took place on 26 November last year. What would their reponse have been? In the > > name of being ‘tough on terror,’ they would have bombed Pakistan. By now we > > would have been in the middle of a war. The economy would have collapsed, and > > security would have fallen drastically, as Pakistani terrorist groups targeted > > India even more. In India, money for employment programmes, infrastructure, > > health care, education and welfare, which ought to be increased, would have > > fallen still further as more funds were put into the military effort. Worst of > > all, the civilian government in Pakistan might have fallen, giving way to > > extremist groups, and a nuclear exchange between India and Pakistan would be on > > the cards, destroying millions of lives of both sides of the border. > > > > We simply cannot afford to have such a party in power in our country: one which > > stands for Talibanisation, intolerance, divisiveness, militarism and war. > > Therefore we must make sure they do not come to power in the up-coming > > elections. > > > > We appeal to all the citizens that we must defeat the communal forces, > > BJP and it allies. > > > > All India Secular Forum > > > > (sent by Ram Punyani) > > _________________________________________ > > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > > Critiques & Collaborations > > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with subscribe in the subject header. > > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> > > > > -- > http://venukm.blogspot.com/ > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with subscribe in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> _________________________________________________________________ Windows Live Messenger. Multitasking at its finest. http://www.microsoft.com/india/windows/windowslive/messenger.aspx From asad_abbasi at hotmail.com Thu Apr 9 23:50:29 2009 From: asad_abbasi at hotmail.com (asad abbasi) Date: Thu, 9 Apr 2009 18:20:29 +0000 Subject: [Reader-list] MNIC? The MIND? sixth sense? Message-ID: http://www.ted.com/index.php/talks/pattie_maes_demos_the_sixth_sense.html Dear All, Concerning the on going discussion about the device that government of India wants to go ahead with, which allegedly can identify the terrorist, I believe is still a hypothetical thing and might take years or a decade before even coming to market.(if anything such as the proposed one can be built- that is). But recently I saw a video about a project called sixth sense which I believe is the new kind of technology and in disguise may guide us greater innovations. I personally won’t comment on things the presenter had to say about knowledge and optimal decisions that we make because I think she lacked bit of clarity (at least for me) but the gadget totally moved me at some points and I hope every one enjoys what can be the future of our generation. Regards ASAD _________________________________________________________________ View your Twitter and Flickr updates from one place – Learn more! http://clk.atdmt.com/UKM/go/137984870/direct/01/ From 2tahamehmood at googlemail.com Fri Apr 10 04:45:52 2009 From: 2tahamehmood at googlemail.com (Taha Mehmood) Date: Fri, 10 Apr 2009 00:15:52 +0100 Subject: [Reader-list] Surveillance of Public Spaces: A Privacy Issue? Message-ID: <49DE81A8.8090807@gmail.com> http://www.1to1media.com/View.aspx?DocId=31533 Surveillance of Public Spaces: A Privacy Issue? We are perhaps more accustomed than ever before to the surveillance camera on the busy street corner and corporate front entrance. People who pass by them every day don't seem to take a second look anymore. But is there a point at which the ubiquity and potential connectivity of public-space surveillance starts to diminish personal privacy? Companies that occupy a corner in this growing web may find new policy issues at their doorsteps. *Surveillance cameras * Few things symbolize the post-9/11 Western world more than the iconic surveillance camera. From New York to London to Canberra, the electronic eyes have multiplied in the past decade. Consider the facts: * After British closed-circuit television (CCTV) images in 1993 aided the capture of the murderers of a toddler, and IRA terrorists continued their bombing assaults on London, a willing public backed the installation of what has now become an estimated 1.5 to 4 million cameras, the most in the world. * Following riots by Muslim youth--the most widespread in Paris since 1968--a 2008 plan will increase the number of police cameras in Paris to 10,000, out of an estimated 340,000 in the country. * A "London-style" surveillance initiative is scheduled to add thousands of cameras across New York City by 2010. * A 2008 Department of Homeland Security initiative added 4,500 cameras to the streets of Washington, DC, with "hundreds more" expected to be added in 2009. * By January 2007, Chicago had installed more than 2,200 surveillance cameras. * Last month, Winnipeg installed its first CCTV systems, joining other cities in Canada, Denmark, Norway, Germany, and Australia on the surveillance bandwagon. The growth of surveillance cameras in the West has so far met little resistance from the general public, who perhaps see in the cameras a promise of greater security from terrorists and criminals. Since the vast majority of people aren't perpetrating crime in public, how could the cameras harm them? A recent documentary on British television, "Every Step You Take," identifies some new and not-so-distant applications of CCTV cameras and their data. Some systems reportedly now "shout out" a verbal warning to people exhibiting anti-social behavior, while others listen for aggressive voices and gun shots. Some cameras have already been adapted with automatic number-plate recognition technology (ANPR) that reads each passing car's license plate. In the UK, for instance, ANPR technology allows a car's owner to be identified when a car enters a designated "congestion zone" (such as central London) during specified hours. The list of car owners is then compared against payment records to ensure that each congestion charge has been paid when due. Such technology would also allow a camera to feed car-owner data into a database that immediately "pings" the authorities if a license is not current, or the car is not properly insured or certified as roadworthy, or the owner is on a terrorist list, or the car has been involved in a crime. "Anyone knowing a distinct part of the software code can enter it into Google and consequently gain access to thousands of CCTV feeds from all over the world," claimed the documentary's narrator. "You can watch live broadcasts of cafes in the U.S., churches in Poland, and loads of footage from the UK," he added. Supplementing the CCTV networks is a growing use of overhead surveillance. Many metropolitan areas in the U.S. and abroad--Washington, DC, New York City, the State of Texas, and India, for example--use aircraft to watch for possible homeland-security concerns and illegal drug operations only visible from above. But from a privacy perspective, the greatest development has been Google Earth, launched in 2005. Even though Google Earth is not a "real time" system like most surveillance operations, the combination of overhead satellite images and Google's ground-level Street View system, released in 2007, has raised the possibility that anyone with an Internet browser can potentially view anyone else in public. *Vehicle tracking* Smart tags used for frequent travel across toll roads are adding to the growing pool of data about people's movement through the public space. In the United States, the most ubiquitous smart-tag is the E-ZPass , an interoperable system spanning 13 states in the northeast, where two-thirds of U.S. highway tolls are collected. Other standalone smart-tag systems in southern and western states and Ontario similarly provide state agencies with an ongoing stream of data about a vehicle's time and place. And even drivers not on toll roads may be leaving a data trail. Users of devices connected with the U.S. Air Force-managed Global Positioning System (GPS) can optionally allow their data to be sent back to the device maker for improvements on route information. General Motors, through its OnStar service, and Progressive Auto Insurance, through its MyRate plan, combine personally identifiable data with vehicle location to provide customized service. *Pedestrian tracking* The futuristic scenes in the 2002 movie /Minority Report/--where billboards detected Tom Cruise's character passing by and then delivered customized messages to him--are now one step closer to reality. Paris-based Quividi in 2006 launched an "automated audience measurement solution" in hundreds of retail stores in Europe and Asia, and more recently in America. Its camera-enabled digital billboards detect the demographics of passersby and then deliver messages tailored to those demographics. Israel-based TruMedia offers a similar technology being tested in more than 30 U.S. locations. Drivers who don't use smart tags or GPS devices and people who don't walk in front of digital billboards, but carry a GPS-enabled mobile phone, nonetheless are sending position information to their telephone company. Two new mobile phone applications--Loopt for the Apple iPhone and Google's Latitude--enable people to share their location information voluntarily, through phone-based browsers. Privacy risks? The growing amount and connectivity of data about people's actions and movements outside their homes has raised concerns among privacy advocates including the Electronic Privacy Information Center (EPIC), Privacy International, and the American Civil Liberties Union (ACLU). They say this type of data collection is inherently prone to abuse--expanding data uses beyond the original purposes of collection, sharing data with third parties beyond reasonable expectations, and heightening vulnerability to security breaches. A criminal's knowledge of a person's location could, for example, heighten that person's vulnerability to property theft, physical harm, and child abduction. Motivated by these risks, the privacy commissioners of Canada, British Columbia, and Alberta in March 2008 released Guidelines for Overt Video Surveillance in the Private Sector, and have continued to apply these guidelines to public-sector deployment of surveillance cameras. Among their guidelines: determining whether a less privacy-invasive alternative to video surveillance would meet the stated need, limiting data use and retention to what is stated in a privacy policy, and training camera operators on the privacy policy. So far, however, privacy professionals mostly have been unable to counter the argument that a person should have no expectation of privacy in a public space. What, after all, does a person have to hide about his walking along the street, through a park, or through a shopping center? If this information can be secured, what is the harm to human dignity? Longstanding battles over two legal precedents--concealment and vagrancy statutes--in the U.S. and other countries based on England's common-law system show how the common good of public safety has often triumphed over what has been viewed as the lesser privacy good of individual identification in public. In the U.S., masked rioting farmers and Ku Klux Klan members, viewed as domestic terrorists, led at least seven states starting in 1845 to prohibit mask wearing in public. Occasionally the enforcement of these laws makes headlines, such as when police arrested a New York man wearing a Grinch mask and a Florida man dressed as Batman. Police argue that the wearing of a mask in public amounts to concealment of malicious intent. Vagrancy laws have also provided precedents for requiring people to identify themselves as they pass through public spaces. According to the Encyclopedia Britannica, England first established the concept that a vagrant was a person who had deserted his wife and children, was able to work but preferred to drift idly from place to place, or who was unable to give an account of himself. In the United States, Supreme Court decisions have narrowed the application of vagrancy laws but have also reconfirmed their constitutionality. In Terry v Ohio (1968), for example, the Court held that the need for law enforcement to dispel suspicion of criminal activity justified the minimal intrusion upon the individual to identify himself. In Hiibel v Sixth Judicial District Court of Nevada (2004), the Court concluded that requiring suspects to identify themselves did not violate the Fourth or Fifth Amendments. What should corporate privacy officers do when faced with these ever new and evolving policy questions presented by the age of ubiquitous identification? Former U.S. Department of Homeland Security Chief Privacy Officer Hugo Teufel may have given the best advice: "If you stick to the fair information principles," he told a St. Paul audience in January, "you'll always come out with the right answer." When it comes to surveillance, this means, at a minimum, clearly disclosing surveillance activities, limiting data uses to defined purposes, and securing the images. Surveillance programs that don't incorporate these principles run the risk of losing public support for their continuance. From 2tahamehmood at googlemail.com Fri Apr 10 04:48:05 2009 From: 2tahamehmood at googlemail.com (Taha Mehmood) Date: Fri, 10 Apr 2009 00:18:05 +0100 Subject: [Reader-list] Anti-terror swoops follow months of surveillance Message-ID: <49DE822D.20405@gmail.com> http://www.guardian.co.uk/politics/2009/apr/09/anti-terror-operation-england Anti-terror swoops follow months of surveillance • Speculation that night clubs were among targets • Twelve arrests follow raids on 15 north-west locations * Owen Bowcott and Richard Norton-Taylor * The Guardian , Thursday 9 April 2009 * Article history The scale and speed of the anti-terror operation mounted by hundreds of officers across north-west England last night points to extensive prior surveillance of a suspected plot aimed at domestic targets. The home secretary's decision to congratulate police even as the raids were going on reinforced the theory that senior Whitehall officials were confident a major security threat had been countered. Describing it as a "successful anti-terrorism operation", Jacqui Smith said: "The decision to take such action was an operational matter for the police and the Security Service but the prime minister and I were kept fully appraised of developments. We face a severe terrorist threat in this country." Intelligence sources said the information gathered indicated "a potentially serious plot against UK targets", adding: "The focus of this is in the UK." It is believed officers did not know the specific targets. Other sources speculated that attacks may have been planned on nightclubs in Manchester's city centre or the nearby Trafford shopping centre complex. It is understood the police raids were scheduled for 2am today but were moved forward to 5pm yesterday. The 12 men were arrested at seven separate locations across the north-west and at least another eight addresses were searched. Scores of students witnessed one arrest at Liverpool John Moores University. Police said one man was arrested near the campus. Student Daniel Taylor said: "When I looked I saw a man on the floor. Police were shouting at him and one of the officers had what looked like a machine gun pointed right into his head." At Cedar Grove, Liverpool, three men were arrested. A resident said: "I looked and about midway down the road there were a load of police officers dressed in black and they were bringing some men out of a house." Another man was arrested at Earle Road, Liverpool. An eyewitness, Rebecca Mallon, said: "A lot of men wearing black, not police uniforms, it looked like combat gear, burst out of the cars and stormed the door to a flat next to one of the shops." In Galsworthy Avenue, Cheetham Hill, Manchester, two men were arrested. A neighbour, Bushra Majid, said: "I opened the door and four or five policemen were on top of a man. They were dragging him along the street and he had no shoes on." In Cheetham Hill Road, Manchester, two men were arrested at premises thought to be an internet cafe and shop. Local resident Mesu Raza said: "I saw police arrest two people and put them in a police van. They had handcuffs on, they were Asian men, and the police were armed." Two men were arrested at a premises in Clitheroe, Lancashire. Police did not reveal the address, but local sources said that up to 100 officers swooped on a Homebase store and arrested two security guards as work colleagues looked on. Mark Barlowe, who saw the Homebase raid, said: "Looking at the police vehicles, they weren't from round here. The majority were from out of town. They swooped in, a lot of them in riot gear." A further arrest took place on the M602. Mohammed Shafiq, chief executive of the Ramadhan Foundation which works with young Muslims, said: "I would urge caution ... There have been many anti-terror raids in the past where people have been proven innocent." From pawan.durani at gmail.com Fri Apr 10 08:55:21 2009 From: pawan.durani at gmail.com (Pawan Durani) Date: Fri, 10 Apr 2009 08:55:21 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Ancient Temples of Sindh Message-ID: <6b79f1a70904092025i738d8a15m3cdf1f195fdac784@mail.gmail.com> *Ancient Temples of Sindh* ** *By Sanjay Godbole* ** *the *‘Thar’ Division in Pakistan has an expanse of twenty thousand square kilometers. During the census of this area in the year 1981 A.D., it was revealed that 0.5 million people were settled over there. Geographically, this 'Thar’ (desert) has been created out of heaps formed from the sandy dunes, saltish residues and oysters from the kutch desert and carried naturally over there over a period of years. The desert of ‘Thar’ was controlled by the ‘Rajputs’ (a warrior community). Many rulers from Rajput dynasties such as Sodha, Sumera, Sanna, Rathod etc. ruled here. Mehmud Gaznavi traversed the Thar desert and came to Somnath for attacking and destroying the temple. During the British regime, one Capt. Recks studied this terrain geographically. According to him, ‘Parinagar’ was an important and large port in the pre-Christian era. A large tributary of the River Sindhu contributed its flow into the Arabian Sea. The river was called ‘Hakdi’ at that time. Subsequently on account of onslought of natural calamities such as earthquake, the river changed its course and many towns and villages vanished in the blue. The ‘Kutch’ province was created due to turmoil on account of earthquakes and subsequent drying up of the Arabian sea in parts. Sindh has many ancient legacies such as temples, Mathaslamaseries, kundassacred tanks and such other ancient holy places. The Government of Sindh had published a Gazzettier in Sindhi language. Mr. Jagdish Rathi, a Sindhi author, sent me a few pages from this Gazzetter. These give an oblique reference to many such holy pilgrimage sites. There is a holy water tank situated at Nagarparkar which owes its origin by dint of the legendary story given in Mahabharata that Bheema kneeled down here. This Kunda admeasures 30' x 20' in size. In the direction of North West from ‘Nagarparkar’ lies a place called ‘* Achalshor*’ where there are natural springs. There is a temple of Lord Shivaand a charitable rest house built by ‘Satramdasa’, where many ascetics dwell. A natural spring stemming and originating at the foot of a mountain near the old town is called ‘Zarano’ in the local dialect. There is also a cave in the mountain at the east side of nagarparkar, which can accommodate about 25 persons. During emergency and period of crisis, the womenfolk was safely put in the cave and the opening of the cave was closed with stones and the men faced the enemies. This place was called as ‘Bavanji Bibo’. A Fort was built near Nagarparkar by one Shri. Govind Rai, which was levelled with the ground by the British. ‘Ghordharo’ is an ancient place near ‘Karunjar’. The place is revered as a sacred place in Sindh, it exists from Vedic times. There is a lake called *‘Lorai'*. The water from this lake goes right upto ‘Katch’. There are many ancient remains in the Vicinity of ‘Ghordharo’ This ‘Thar’ desert and the ‘Thar’ region has also been alluded to by many literatures from Pakistan in their works. Similarly, special mention has been made by some travellers about the sand dunes, desolated barren lands and peaceful tranquillity of this region. ‘Mazrul Islam’ a famous author and storyteller has said that his heart and Thar’ are identical with the same desert. In the South East direction of Thar lies the ‘Nagarparkar’ district which is still undeveloped, there are huge egg-shaped hills measuring 12 miles long and 1000 feet high. There are many temples belonging to Hindu and Jain faiths. During the pre-independence times, all these temples were always thronged by pilgrims. These are, however, in a deserted state and in neglected conditions in that the patrons of them have settled in India But these temples are, even as on today, known and are referred to for their Architecture and legacy. In an area at the foot of ‘Karunjar’ hills, within a periphery of 50 kilometers, there are five Derasars (Jain temples). Out of these, two temples are in good shape and structurally sound. Out of these five Jain temples, the most famous is called ‘Gori Mandir’ and is at a distance of 40 km. in the North-West direction from ‘Karunjar’. This temple was built, it is believed, since olden times. It was built during the regime of rulers from ‘Sodha’ dynasty, who ruled the province of Sindh during 1376 A.D. Since no inscriptions are available in the Mandir, confirmed conclusions and inferences can not be drawn as to the establishment of the same. This temple is of the size of 39 M x 15 M and is built in Jodhpurstone, which is quite akin to Marble. There is a court yard in the front side of the temple, in the North direction; and there are acmes in the shape of Umbrellas, on the top of the temple. After entering the temple from the Southern end, one can have glimpses of the rectangular spaces [Khana: means the space between two consecutive pillars] and the acmes over it. Long ago, way back, some idols had been installed there. Since, now that, these idols are no more existent, the acmes and the pillars and the Umbrellas are all in a broken state. At the back side of the main market at Nagarparkar, there exists a Jain temple in a neglected and deserted state. The temple has acmes in the shape of “triangle and there is a lot of carved work on the walls and the pillars. There are many sculptures depicting Jain Mythology. Way back, there were many painting and sketches also. But these are all destroyed and sculptures are broken. The colourful tiles set in the temple have also vanished. There is no one to look after the temple. When there was partition, the Jain community, en masse, chose to go to India. The ‘Karunjar’ hill, for the Hindus of the Sindh is like a permanent holy place. The town of Sardharo is situated centrally amongst these hills, which are composed of Granite stone with a reddish tinge. In total there are three temples and the Shiva-Parvati temple is very famous. There is a temple of the Goddess on the Dharohar hill. Sardharo next to ‘Hinglaj’ is considered to be the 2nd important holy place in Pakistan. People come here for immersion of the bones of the dead in the ‘Kunda’ over here. For the upkeep of this holy place, the ‘Nehalpuri’ family consisting of 8 members is permanently settled here. The residents of Sindh treat and rever the fountain water as holy as the water from the river Ganges. On the auspicious day of Mahashivratri around twenty thousand devotees come here to offer their prayers and Puja. In this temple there are some idols of deities and some paintings of God and Goddesses. Though this temple is nothing special from architectural points of view, it enjoys special importance due to a legend mentioned in Hindu scriptures; and therefore this place is held in high esteem by the masses. This legend runs as follows- Once upon a time, a couple of deer and doe was returning homewards in the valley of ‘Karunjar' and the deer slipped’ from a high cliff and fell in the lake below. It got drowned and died. The doe rushed forward to rescue the deer and in doing so, got herself entangled in a nearby bush. Her head got stuck in the bush and rest of her body bogged down in the lake. Subsequent to this incident, the doe was reborn in a merchant family of ‘Patan’ She, unfortunately suffered from chronic headache (migraine) and could not be cured of this disease in spite of treatments and medications. A Brahmin priest from the town, with the help of his deep studies and intuitive powers visualized the past of this unfortunate girl and told her parents to retrieve the remains of the head of the doe and immerse them in the lake. The parents of the girl acted upon the advice of the priest and the girl got totally rid of the sufferings. In kind remembrance of this, the parents of the girl erected three temples by the side of the lake. Due to geographical situation, ‘Nagarparkar’ is accessible with great difficulties. In the olden days the pilgrims took two full days to traverse a distance of 490 km from Karachi to reach ‘Nagarparkar’. But now with the construction of concrete roads, one can reach ‘Mithi’ from Karachi within 7 hours. ‘Mithi’ happens to be the district head quarters of the 'Thar Parkar’ desert area. From ‘Mithi’ one can reach ‘Nagarparkar’ within a short period of 3 hours. From ‘Nagarparkar’, with the assistance of local guidance one can go to ‘Sardharo’. Lodging and Boarding arrangements of pilgrims can be made by paying charges of Rs. 1500 per day at the residence of a local man. There is no road in good condition for going to Sardharo from ‘Nagarparkar’. Hence the pilgrims have to pass many obstacles and obstructions. According to a local resident Shri. ‘Maun Puri’, though the Hindu Panchayat Committee is looking after the up keep of the temple; it is not in a position to raise funds to make proper arrangements for lodging and boarding of the pilgrims. If, according to Shri. Maun Puri, the Govt, makes adequate arrangements to construct a permanent Road from ‘Nagarparkar’ to ‘Sardharo’ the aged and the women can also have glimpses of this holy place. A few days back Mr. Maqbool Ahmad undertook a detailed survey of the temple and published an illustrated report of the same in Herald. He also appealed to the Govt, authorities to take concrete steps to preserve and conserve this valuable heritage of historical importance. In the year 2003 A.D. Mr. Aziz Sanghdar, prepared an exhaustive report about the neglected and ignored remains existing in this area. Janab Zulfikar Syed, too, published a report about ‘Karunjar’ under the name and title ‘Lost world’. Some days back, I was acquainted with Mr. ‘Jethanand’ a "resident of ‘Dhano’, a town in Sindh. Mr. Jethanand gave me a reference to a Baloch gentleman Janab Ali Khosu, who is 94 now and has thorough and in-depth knowledge of the history of Sindh - very recently, G.O.T.V., had broadcast a programme about Janab Khosu. When contacted, Janab Khosu informed that upto the year 1971 many Jain ascetics visited this holy place. About 1200 Jains were settled in Nagarparkar and the Jain population in ‘Parshvanath Gori’ was 2000. But majority of them migrated to India. There is a water tank here (Kund) which has natural sources of water, which subsequently joins the river water. This kund is called ‘Mrigakund’. A Huge fair is held here by end of ‘Kartik’ (the 8th month of Hindu calendar.) There is a temple of Lord Shiva at Sadhu Bela near Sakkar, where a fair is held in the month of June. The famous Hindu ascetic, ‘Parashar’ had carried out his penance on the hills of ‘Sarodhar’. There are prints of his feet here. Janab Khosu further added that prior to Partition, this region was famous for Communal harmony. Many fairs were held and various festivals were celebrated. Yogis and Saints flocked here. In the precincts of this area many remains of Jain, Hindu and Buddha idols were surfaced. An image of Lord Shiva was also found. In addition ancient utensils and containers, along with other remains were also found. In the area surrounding ‘Sarodhar’, ‘Agriculture’ was professed on a very large scale. The honey was exported. Today, there is only one household of the Jains. The Name of ‘Nagarparkar’ has its origin with three words. Nagar means city, Par means to go beyond or transcend the limits and kar means to do - according to Mr. Khosu. Janab Khosu has his formal education upto the second standard and that too in Sindhi medium. On account of his affinity for culture and history, he has visited all the holy places of pilgrimage and has studied ‘Ramayana’, ‘Mahabharata’ and history to great detail. He has sharp memory even now and he has a flare to teach and elucidate the cultural history of Sindh to many scholars and students he comes in contact with. Erudites like Janab Khosu are furthering the cause of the study of the cultural pride of the past and the bygone areas. And surely it is.a matter of pride for all of us that he continues with his endeavour with the same zeal. Source: Kashmir Sentinel, a Panun Kashmir publication __._,_.___ From pawan.durani at gmail.com Fri Apr 10 09:01:34 2009 From: pawan.durani at gmail.com (Pawan Durani) Date: Fri, 10 Apr 2009 09:01:34 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Sarswat Brahmins to re-assert claim over Kashmir in 3rd KP World Conference Message-ID: <6b79f1a70904092031m15888f2di58ddc4c1c71fa405@mail.gmail.com> ** http://www.dailyexcelsior.com/web1/09apr09/state.htm#24 Excelsior Correspondent *JAMMU, Apr 8: *The two- day long third World Conference of Kashmiri Pandits to be held at Jammu on April 11 and 12 will forcefully focus on the separate homeland demand for over seven lakh exiled Pandits in Valley with Union Territory status. This was stated by PK convenor, Agnishekhar during an informal chat with mediapersons here today. He said besides the homeland the other issues confronting the community and people of Jammu and Ladakh regions who too have been subjected to constant discrimination over the years will also be raised. He said one session will be devoted to Jammu region to focus on the issues facing the people here. To establish their claim on Kashmir the representatives of 55 lakh Sarswat Brahmins who trace their origin in Kashmir will also participate in the conference, he added. Besides the representatives from India the guests from US and other countries are also participating in the conference to have thread bare discussions on KPs problems. Besides the terrorists, Islamic fundamentalists some forces within the administration were responsible for mass exodus of KPs. These all agencies worked under a well knit policy, he added. He declared that portraits on three KP icons who had played a glorious role in stopping the mass migration including Shriya Bhat of 15th century , Kripa Ram 17 th and Birbal Dhar 19th century will be released. These portraits have been made by Gokal Dembi a renowned artist. Besides Holocaust Dhun made by Kuldeep Saproo will also be played during the conference. He said a cassette on Kashmiri rhyms and rituals dedicated by KP Sabha Pune will also be released. The cassette is the brain child of Krishan Langoo, he added. In addition to this J K Koul Bezan and Asha Zaru’s opera cry of Satisar and a film on the Amarnath land agitation martyrs will also be released, he added. Meanwhile Dr Utpal Koul a founder member of Homeland Movement of Panun Kashmir has assured his full support to the World Conference. From preetunair at yahoo.com Fri Apr 10 09:02:07 2009 From: preetunair at yahoo.com (PREETU NAIR) Date: Thu, 9 Apr 2009 20:32:07 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Reader-list] Goa: EC officials in soup over night out Message-ID: <901313.42655.qm@web31706.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Goa: EC officials in soup over night out 10 Apr 2009, 0425 hrs IST, TNN Panaji: Three election observers and their liaison officer enjoyed a dinner and boat cruise last Saturday, but trying to treat that as complimentary may have been the reason an officer was relieved of his election duty. According to government sources, three election observers — Chanchal Tewari (IAS), Masood Hassan (IAS) and T C Jose (IRS) — along with liaison officer M Olwatt were treated to a ‘‘complimentary dinner and boat cruise’’ on the river Mandovi last Saturday. The request for the complimentary cruise was reportedly made by deputy director (tourism) Pamela Mascarenhas on Saturday, when she called up the Goa Tourism Development Corporations assistant manager at the Santa Monica booking counter asking him to arrange the complimentary dinner aboard the vessel. Though GTDC does not give complimentary passes without the managing director Benjamin Braganza’s consent, the four election officers were given these, despite it being a weekend and Braganza not available. Sources said that on Monday, deputy North Goa district election officer P S Meena wrote to the GTDC seeking that the election officials’ night out on Saturday be cleared as complimentary. Ironically, a copy of this letter was sent to the Goa State Election Commission. TOI learns that, keeping in view that the beneficiaries were election observers who were here to conduct a free and impartial poll, Braganza refused to allow the dinner to be shown as complimentary. As the GTDC refused to budge, the payments for the dinner and boat cruise were finally made on Thursday. ‘‘We received the payments and the receipts were made out in the names of the election officials concerned,’’ a GTDC source said. Meena, meanwhile, has been relieved of election duties. However, returning officer and North Goa collector K S Singh played down the entire episode. ‘‘Nobody has taken complimentary passes. As for Meena, we had asked for his services only temporarily due to the burden of work during election time. He has been relieved as he has to attend a family function,’’ Singh said. The returning officer, however, did not confirm that Meena had written the letter asking for the complimentary passes for the election commission officials. The Times of India, Goa edition "Live unnoticed" ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Preetu Nair Principal Correspondent The Times of India, Miramar, Panaji, Goa-403 001 India http://goadourado.sulekha.com/blog/posts.htm ----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From vivek at sarai.net Fri Apr 10 09:15:43 2009 From: vivek at sarai.net (Vivek Narayanan) Date: Fri, 10 Apr 2009 09:15:43 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] MNIC? The MIND? sixth sense? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <49DEC0E7.1030202@sarai.net> Dear Asad, I just spent 8 minutes watching the video you linked to, and was very disappointed, to say the least. The so-called "sixth sense" technology is really just a more efficient and stylish way of providing google-on-the-go and has nothing whatsoever to do with actually reading another person's mind. If you really do believe that this device would "in disguise" lead to being able to "read a terrorist's mind", could you elaborate on how that would happen? Also, since you seem to speak knowledgeably about "the device that the government of India wants to go ahead with", could you tell us what the device is exactly, and where you found the information that it is only ten years-- at most-- from being released in the market? Vivek. asad abbasi wrote: > http://www.ted.com/index.php/talks/pattie_maes_demos_the_sixth_sense.html > > Dear All, > Concerning the on going discussion about the device that government of India wants to go ahead with, which allegedly can identify the terrorist, I believe is still a hypothetical thing and might take years or a decade before even coming to market.(if anything such as the proposed one can be built- that is). But recently I saw a video about a project called sixth sense which I believe is the new kind of technology and in disguise may guide us greater innovations. > I personally won’t comment on things the presenter had to say about knowledge and optimal decisions that we make because I think she lacked bit of clarity (at least for me) but the gadget totally moved me at some points and I hope every one enjoys what can be the future of our generation. > > Regards > > ASAD > _________________________________________________________________ > View your Twitter and Flickr updates from one place – Learn more! > http://clk.atdmt.com/UKM/go/137984870/direct/01/ > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with subscribe in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> From cubbykabi at yahoo.com Fri Apr 10 12:07:40 2009 From: cubbykabi at yahoo.com (kabi cubby sherman) Date: Fri, 10 Apr 2009 12:07:40 +0530 (IST) Subject: [Reader-list] Fw: Fwd: [students_cmcs] Tribute to Waqar Khan: Naata on NDTV In-Reply-To: <978154150904092333u2dd1194ascef15d46b653dd51@mail.gmail.com> References: <49035F92.7030408@gmail.com> <493BFEED.5070505@gmail.com> <49DE39DE.5070803@gmail.com> <978154150904092333u2dd1194ascef15d46b653dd51@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <136163.95944.qm@web94707.mail.in2.yahoo.com> apologies for cross postings kabi ---------- Forwarded message ---------- From: Subuhi Jiwani Date: Fri, Apr 10, 2009 at 11:33 AM Subject: Fwd: [students_cmcs] Tribute to Waqar Khan: Naata on NDTV To: huda mustafa , Aqdas Tatli , kabi cubby ---------- Forwarded message ---------- From: Monteiro and Jayasankar Date: Thu, 09 Apr 2009 23:39:34 +0530 Subject: [students_cmcs] Tribute to Waqar Khan: Naata on NDTV To: cmcs.tiss at gmail.com Dear friends, As a tribute to Waqar Khan, who passed away on the 7th of April, NDTV 24x7 will screen our film "Naata (The Bond)" in the documentary slot on April 12, 2009 at 1.00 -2.00 PM Please do watch and pass the word on. Apologies for cross-posting. Warm regards, Anjali and Jayasankar *NAATA* The Bond English, 2003, 45 Mins. Directed by K..P. Jayasankar and Anjali Monteiro Friends and activists, Bhau Korde and Waqar Khan, work with neighborhood peace committees in Dharavi, Mumbai to promote conflict resolution through the collective production and use of visual media. Korde and Khan are both long-time residents of Dharavi and both first-generation migrants to the city. As Asia's largest slum, with a population of 800,000, Dharavi has often been represented as a breeding ground for filth, vice and poverty, full of immigrants whose right to live in the city is often questioned by vigilante citizens' groups and right-wing politicians. However, Dharavi's long history of immigration has created a creative, productive space which plays an important role in the economy of the city; it is one of the major hubs of the informal sector that produces commodities ranging from food products to leather goods catering to a large export market. When the deadly riots of 1992-93 tore the city and their community apart, Korde and Khan were moved to act, working to change both the negative perception of Dharavi and erase religious and ethnic divisions. Naata follows these remarkable men as they work on their film, Ekta Sandesh - their work paralleling that of Naata's own filmmakers, another filmmaking pair who are immigrants to their city of Bombay. Traveling with a projector and a screen, Korde and Khan show the film at their own expense in communities savaged by distrust and prejudice. The two pairs of filmmakers join forces in this documentary to spread their important message even further. Naata is the second in a series on the people and the city of Mumbai. It is a sequel to Saacha (The Loom), 2001 URL: http://naata.wordpress.com/ “About a friendship that conveys a moving message to an increasingly polarized city…” Times of India “Creating conflict resolution strategies through peoples’ co-operation…” Deccan Herald “As a text which draws our attention to the power that finally rests with citizens to effect a change in the lives of their communities, Naata showcases the secular energies that make Dharavi, and in turn, Bombay, a place that takes great pride in celebrating its cosmopolitan identity” Art India “A moving personalised tale of communal harmony in the Mumbai's biggest slum, Dharavi” The Hindu “[About] Two souls on the healing side of a communal divide” Indian Express “A moving personalised tale of communal harmony…” Himal South Asian ____________________________________________________________ Anjali Monteiro, Ph.D., Professor K.P. Jayasankar, Ph.D., Professor Centre for Media and Cultural Studies Tata Institute of Social Sciences VN purav Marg, Deonar, Bombay 400 088, India Phone: +91 22 2552 5660 and 5661 (Work) Fax: +91 22 2552 5050 e-mail: cmcs.tiss at gmail.com URL: www.cmcs.tiss.edu http://ourfamily2007.wordpress.com/ http://naata.wordpress.com/ > > --~--~---------~--~----~------------~-------~--~----~ You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Students_CMCS" group. To post to this group, send email to students_cmcs at googlegroups.com To unsubscribe from this group, send email to students_cmcs+unsubscribe at googlegroups.com For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/students_cmcs?hl=en -~----------~----~----~----~------~----~------~--~--- Add more friends to your messenger and enjoy! Go to http://messenger.yahoo.com/invite/ From pawan.durani at gmail.com Fri Apr 10 12:29:57 2009 From: pawan.durani at gmail.com (Pawan Durani) Date: Fri, 10 Apr 2009 12:29:57 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Renaming Places in Kashmir -Communal propaganda at work again.. Message-ID: <6b79f1a70904092359q569e35a5l328ac792baf1069@mail.gmail.com> Locals demand Rajwansher railway station be renamed Maroosha Muzaffar Indian Express Posted online: April 10, 2009 *Srinagar *Two months after the J-K Chief Minister wrote to Union Railway Minister for renaming the Rajwansher Railway station in the Valley as Mazhama Railway station, the commuters and the local residents allege that the change of name has not taken place. The railway boards and the announcements at the station still call it Rajwansher station instead of Mazhama station as was proposed by the government. Omar Abdullah in a letter to Union Railway Minister Lalu Prasad Yadav had written to him that the Rajwansher station in Kashmir’s Budgam district be renamed as Mazhama station as it was found that there is no village in North Kashmir by the name of Rajwansher. The local residents and the people in Valley had taken offence to the name Rajwansher because they alleged that this name – Rajwansher – would dilute the Muslim identity of Kashmir. “There still is a board on the train that reads Rajwansher. No change has been made in the name. Even the announcements at the Mazhama station call it Rajwansher station. I just don’t understand why the railway authorities are lax in their attitude,” said one of the commuters Zubair Ahmed. “Even though the government has ordered renaming of the station, there seems to be no one listening,” he added. Rajwansher railway station is one of the 13 railway stations that fall between South Kashmir’s Anantnag district and North Kashmir’s Baramulla district. The first ever train in the valley was inaugurated on 11th October 2008 by the Prime Minister of the country Manmohan Singh. Other dignitaries that were present on that day included Governor Jammu Kashmir N N Vohra, Union Railway Minister Lalu Prasad Yadav, Union Water Resources Minister Prof Saif-ud-din Soz, UPA Chairperson Sonia Gandhi and others. To begin with, the train was supposed to run from Budgam (Rajwansher) to Anantnag, covering a distance of 66 kilometers. The residents of Budgam district alleged that there is no village by the name of Rajwansher. Rajwansher is the name of one of the oldest Hindu rulers of the state. They alleged that the government was using this name to “sanskritize the Kashmiri culture” and demanded renaming of the station as Mazhama or Mazhoom station. Days before the inaugural of Mazhama – Baramulla railway line on February 14 by the Union Railway Minister Lalu Prasad Yadav, the Home Ministry had issued a circular asking the authorities to change the name of Rajwansher station to Mazhama station. The commuters allege that no change has taken place, either on the railway boards or the automatic announcements. “They still call it the Rajwansher station whish is unfortunate,” said Aamir Ahmed, a government servant. In fact the separatists in the valley too had raised their voices against this name. They had alleged that by naming the station as Rajwansher, the government was trying to kill the identity of the people of the valley. “They are trying to Indianise our culture,” said Chief of Dukhtaran-e-Millat (Daughters of Faith) Asiya Andrabi. Meanwhile, the government is negligent of the issue. “It is news to me,” said one of the officials in the DC’s office when asked why the station has not been renamed. “We will look into the matter,” he said. The Railway officials say the matter will be discussed. Even though the government has issued orders to rename the Rajwansher station, it remains to be seen when this will actually be done. The letters by Omar Abdullah to Lalu Prasad Yadav had read, “It will be appropriate if the railway station is named as Mazhama Railway Station.” *editors at expressindia.com* From alinamal2009 at gmail.com Fri Apr 10 12:49:52 2009 From: alinamal2009 at gmail.com (Alina MediaArtLab) Date: Fri, 10 Apr 2009 11:19:52 +0400 Subject: [Reader-list] CALL FOR ENTRIES!!!X Media Forum in the frames of Moscow International Film Festival Message-ID: <58e659f0904100019j75229a17j860556d77cf06814@mail.gmail.com> MediaArtLab Centre for Culture has started to receive requests for taking part in Media Forum 2009. It will be held in the frame of 31 Moscow International Film Festival from 23 to 28 of June. This is the 10 years Media Forum exists. The objective of Media Forum is to demonstrate the connection between traditional and modern branches of screen culture, the impact of technological innovations on visual arts. We hope that you will be interested to learn more about Media Forum 2009 here http://mediaforum.mediaartlab.ru/en/ From rakesh.rnbdj at gmail.com Fri Apr 10 15:03:49 2009 From: rakesh.rnbdj at gmail.com (Rakesh Iyer) Date: Fri, 10 Apr 2009 15:03:49 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Article about Myths of Indian Elections Message-ID: Dear all This article comes from someone who has been done extensive research and surveys in the field of election verdicts, and based on his surveys and experiences has come up with this article. I hope you would like to read this, for it has important elements of discussion not only taking place generally on Sarai, but also about other aspects which I think we should also discuss. Regards Rakesh *Article:* http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/south_asia/7973477.stm *Six myths about Indian elections * Do women in India vote according to the wishes of their husbands? Do Muslims vote as a community? Political scientist Yogendra Yadav examines six myths surrounding the Indian elections. A myth is a story or trend that a culture believes to be true. But it has also taken on the meaning of a popular conception that may have become exaggerated if not downright false. The reason why there is so much myth making around politics and elections in India is partly because Indians are passionate about politics. It is also because there is very little hard evidence on political behaviour. When it comes to politics, anything goes. Here are the six most popular myths about Indian politics and elections: *WOMEN VOTE ACCORDING TO THE WISHES OF THEIR HUSBANDS* It is true that in India, like many democracies, the levels of interest and involvement of women in politics is lower than that of men. Obviously, if you are less interested in something, you tend you go by somebody else's advice - in the case of women in India it may be the advice of men in their family. But we cannot conclude that all - or almost all - women go by whatever their husbands ask them to do and so therefore are not really an independent factor in politics. For one, the level of involvement of women in politics has risen sharply in the past two decades or so: the turnout of women during polling used to be a good 10 percentage points below the turnout of men; and now, the gap is barely two to three. Today, more women turn out to vote than men in many states. Second, if it were true that all women were to follow their men in their voting preference, we would not find any difference in the level of support for different parties among men and women. But surveys over the past 40 years have consistently shown a difference in levels of support for major political parties among men and women. Congress, for example, has always got more votes from women than from men since the days of former Prime Minister Indira Gandhi or even earlier. The Communist Party of India (Marxist) in Bengal, the regional Rashtriya Janata Dal (RJD) in Bihar, and the AIADMK party in Tamil Nadu led by former actress Jayalalitha, are some of the parties who get more votes from women than from men. Since the early 1970s, researchers from Delhi's Centre for Developing Societies have asked women voters whose advise they seek while casting their ballots. The evidence shows that fewer than 50% of women today go by the advice of their husband or any men in their family. *MUSLIMS VOTE HEAVILY AND AS A BLOC* We simply have no good evidence to prove that Muslims vote more than the majority Hindus. This perception comes from seeing long queues at polling stations in some Muslim majority urban areas where community voters, especially the poor and women, tend to be very visible. Research shows that in most elections after 1996, the turnout of Muslim voters has actually been a little lower than that of Hindus. The other perception about Muslims voting en bloc has an element of truth. Any minority community tends to flock together, consult among themselves, and has a great sense of community. This applies to Muslims as much as it applies to Sikhs in Delhi, Hindu pundits in Indian-administered Kashmir and to Bengalis in north-eastern India. But it is simply not true that there is anything like a Muslim bloc at national level. If there is one striking thing about Indian Muslims, it is the fact that unlike most minorities in most democracies around the world, Indian Muslims have not voted for Muslim parties. They have had their preferred political parties - Congress used to be one of those parties, and now there are many. Also, Muslims in India do not vote en bloc like, say, the black vote in the US for the Democratic Party or the UK's ethnic minorities who largely vote for the Labour Party. Politically speaking, there is no single unified Muslim community in India. Muslims are fragmented along the lines of religion, sect, caste and community. In the past two decades, Muslim voters have chosen different parties in different states: the CPI(M) in Bengal, the RJD in Bihar, the regional Samajwadi Party (SP) in Uttar Pradesh, the DMK party in Tamil Nadu and the Congress in other parts of the country. In other words, it is an exaggeration to say there is one unified Muslim vote in the country. *THE YOUNG VOTE DISTINCTLY AND INDEPENDENTLY * There is a perception that youth constitute a distinct political bloc with unique and independent political preferences and views. Two-thirds of Indians are below the age of 35. That itself is no basis for concluding that the young are distinct and different from the rest of the population in terms of their political opinions, attitudes and behaviour. I guess we tend to talk about "youth voters" because we import our vocabulary of political analysis from Europe where the generational divide is a significant political cleavage of that society. Where a party like the Greens primarily rides on the divide of the young versus the old. This myth also feeds on a perception that youth are supposed to be carriers of change and transformation. The evidence in India, however, does not confirm any of these beliefs. There is no evidence to suggest that the young are politically more active than others. If anything, they are less politically active - obviously they have other anxieties in life, like preparing for a professional career. Indians allow their image of the young to be dominated by the image of the city-bred English-speaking youth, which is very different from the rest of the country. But we forget that this is a tiny slice of Indian youth. There is no systematic difference between the manner in which the young and the not-so-young vote. It is true that in many states political parties that are relatively more recent or young tend to get more votes from young people. But that is only a function of political socialisation: simply because the young were more exposed to that party than people of an older generation who had not even heard its name. Even in terms of opinions, we have simply not found anything like a generational cleavage in Indian politics. The young support democracy in much the same way as the old do. The young are about as traditional and conservative as the old. Even on questions like inter-caste marriage, the opinions of the young are not actually very different from the rest of the population. *HIGH TURNOUT LEADS TO DEFEAT FOR THE RULING PARTY* It is simply a coincidence that the era which has witnessed higher voter turnout at the federal and state level is also the era which has witnessed a higher level of volatility - a tendency for voters to switch from one party to another, leading to ruling governments or incumbent representatives losing the election. But there is little evidence to suggest that there is a linkage between the two. It is simply not true that elections that witness high turnout lead to a loss for the ruling party. Take the latest case of Madhya Pradesh. In the state elections last year there was a record turnout. Some analysts saw it as evidence of the ruling BJP being thrown out. The BJP won the polls again. High voter turnout can be a function of many different things - a spontaneous outpouring of the voters, of intensity of political competition, of greater mobilisation and resources put in by political parties or of greater interest on the part of the voter. So depending on what led to the higher turnout, you would have different consequences of it. *THERE IS WIDESPREAD APATHY TOWARDS POLITICS* This is one myth that comes close to being totally false. The fact is that while in many other democracies in the world, voter turnouts have declined, in India turnouts have either remained stable or have gone up. If we look at political associations, Indians have an amazingly intense attachment to politics. The proportion of people attached to one party, who feel close to a party, is much higher in India than in many other democracies. The proportion of people who are members of a political party is much higher in India than in the US and most European democracies. The proportion of voters who report that they took some part in electoral activity - going to meetings or campaigning - is quite robust. And the number of people who report that someone came to their house to canvass for votes is very high. In advanced democracies, as you come down the various tiers - from national to local elections - the turnout of voters goes down. In India, it is exactly the opposite: the turnout in federal elections tends to be around 60%, in the state elections it is around 70% and when it comes to village council elections it is anything upwards of 80%. Most important, our democracy defies what was once considered a law of political participation in the world: the higher up you are in the socio-economic hierarchy, the more you participate in politics and voting. In India, evidence shows that the poor "untouchables" vote more than upper castes. The poor vote as much, if not more, than the urban middle classes. Rural areas vote more than urban areas. Women vote almost as much as men do. In other words there is no connection between social hierarchy and participation in politics. Rather than voter apathy and indifference, there has been a participatory upsurge for democracy in India. *INDIANS DON'T CAST THEIR VOTE, THEY VOTE THEIR CASTE* It is true that caste is one of the major determinants of voting behaviour in India. In certain situations when voters are extremely polarised, it appears to be to the sole consideration. But the fact is that caste is not quite the sole consideration. It is certainly untrue that defeat and victory for political parties in elections can be explained by a few caste or community groups switching sides from one party to another. The reason many feel that caste is powerful is because we use the phrase "caste based vote bank" to mean many things. In Delhi's politics, the expression "Punjabi" (literally, residents of Punjab or people who speak the Punjabi language) is used as if it is a caste. Actually, it is a linguistic group. People use the word "Bihari" (literally, residents of Bihar) as if it is a caste group. Actually, it is a regional affiliation, or a moniker for poor migrants. A caste vote can also be a vote against a candidate of a voter's own caste in favour of a party considered closer to their caste. So if a person belonging to the Yadav caste in Bihar votes for a Congress party candidate because the candidate is a Yadav himself, it is an example of caste voting. If the same person were to vote for a candidate belonging to the Bhumihar caste put up by the regional Rashtriya Janata Dal (RJD) - which largely represents the Yadav caste - it would be also an example of caste voting. The evidence on caste voting suggests that caste tends to be a major determinant, specially among the large, visible and powerful caste groups. The caste-vote trend is towards voting for a party that is considered to be close to their caste or community group. But the fact remains that most voters in most constituencies in India do not have a simple option of voting along caste lines. Either they have more than one candidate from their own caste or they have none. They simply cannot vote according to their caste. There has to be a consideration other than caste for almost three-quarters of the voters. Caste provides us with good information on the initial affiliations of social groups. But across two elections, the increasing votes for one party or defeat of another is not explained by castes changing sides. When a party goes up in popularity or declines in popularity, it usually wins and loses votes across castes. *Yogendra Yadav designed and co-ordinated the largest ever series of academic surveys of the Indian electorate for the Centre for the Study of Developing Societies.* From rajen882uppinangadi at gmail.com Fri Apr 10 15:13:50 2009 From: rajen882uppinangadi at gmail.com (Rajen Uppinangadi) Date: Fri, 10 Apr 2009 15:13:50 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] An appeal on the eve of Forthcoming elections. Message-ID: <61164a90904100243pdca0e3cl2608477c0f7bdccd@mail.gmail.com> Dear Sir, that you should use the forum like sarai and its reader-list to white wash one political party and try to tarnish image of another politcal party is beyond explanation, may be except that it is your freedom of expression, to say the least. The reasons for this observation are that the list is useful to the society with international membership from different corners of the world, and you are whitewashing one party whatever remains of it in skeletal form after 1947 in free India. The most corrupt governance of the party is well known to the world as Olof Palme of Sweden had to pay the price after the bofors deal for facilitation of bribes. ! As to Indian National Congress founded by Allan J Hume 1889 for facilitating good governance in british India for the natives, it has history of splits and divisions and this even before the freedom struggle resulted in free India. In 1939, Jinna who got elected as president felt that his community was being treated unfairly and split to form All India muslim league, ,in 1942, though the delegates elected Netaji Subhash as president, Gandhiji overlooked this, over-ruled to put Nehru as president, who most of his tenure spent time in guest houses like the present day lalu, when arrested, moreover Nehru was never detained in any jail, but only in guest houses.Many thousands of citizens in british India sacrificed in the freedom struggle and today the skeletal remains of Indian National Congress has not even one genuine freedom fighter in it , as anybody can see it has only slohgan shouting brigades and goons like Jagadeesh tytler, Sajan Kumar Tak, Kamalnath, HKL Bhagath( now dead) who led the mobs in massacre of 1984. Even after 25 years, not even chargesheet is filed against a single individual for this massacre where every hour saw the brutal killing, burning of innocents on the streets of Delhi.Brilliant lawyers have been made MPs for their excellent defence of the criminals like these, and they are the spokes person for the nearly dead party. India, free India can never forgive and forget the role of Indian national Congress in fomenting communal riots and later rewarding the riot leaders with MP and MLA tikets for their brutal behaviour. As to the splits and divisions, even after free India and the rule of Congress, 1969 saw the complete take over of this party by dynasty of Nehru, the Indira Priyadarshini who did not hesitate to leave her husband to die lonely death for power. Feroz Shah Khan was the lone voice that challenged Nehru on the then infamous Mundra Insurance scam, TT Krishnamachari, then finance minister carried the cross for nehru, that is another matter. With so many splits and divisions and all the tall leaders getting thrown out of the party, history was re written with Nehru as central figure for the freedom and development, when this debauch leader was busy with hs adventures, and media was not bullish as it is now to have the stings and coverage of Nehru and his escapades.! Bofors scandal and its subsequent law taking its own course saw the corrupt side of judciary and the lawyers who were promoted, for delaying the due process of law, autonomous institutions like CBI became poodles instead of being the hounds to investigate.Emergency and subsequent crawling media and judiciary saw the ation in disgust as but for one Justice Khanna, the judiciary would have been the chamchas of the INC.Later citizens have seen the law taking its own course, with judges playing with their dates of births, fudging with reports of judicial commissions and when the political parties say, law will take its course, they mean, they will allow the law to take a course that is convenient to them as seen by the citizens in bofors scam, fodder scam and subsequent evens where no single party can claim higher moral ground. So, please let the citizens decide whom they want to vote with their intellect, as they have choice of murderers, dacoits and pickpockets to choose from.? As to honesty of the prime minister, nation and its citizen have seen the role of corruption, money power and votes of convicts, murderers brought out of jails to vote for the deal, dishonestly tainting the N-deal.? From rakesh.rnbdj at gmail.com Fri Apr 10 15:22:56 2009 From: rakesh.rnbdj at gmail.com (Rakesh Iyer) Date: Fri, 10 Apr 2009 15:22:56 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] An Appeal on the eve of Forthcoming Elections...available options..??... In-Reply-To: References: <1f9180970904070536m4f640ba9lb00a129ecd427838@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: Dear all With the efforts of a few of our members, we have come to know about the Hindutva cum- cultural-nationalistic seculars (read BJP), and the appeasing-cum-pseudo seculars (read Congress/SP/BSP/DMK etc...). Probably one among us may now come up with something on the Communists as well. I just say one thing: Please vote for someone who fights for the cause of our livelihood, for our existence with dignity, and certainly for our rights. In other words, vote for someone who serves to the cause of ideals on which the nation was created, if not for your sake, then for the sake of those unnamed unspoken thousands of people, who fought for making this nation independent, for making this nation a better place to live in during and after independence. And if there is no such candidate according to you, then only don't vote. Regards Rakesh From aliens at dataone.in Fri Apr 10 15:58:01 2009 From: aliens at dataone.in (bipin) Date: Fri, 10 Apr 2009 15:58:01 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] interesting facts Message-ID: <002601c9b9c7$0755e530$0201a8c0@limo> Dear All, I am giving interesting facts giving as under published by Art of Living Foundations. Please read it carefully. It clear assessment of present govt. A) Is this Government really protecting us??!! 7/11 2006: Mumbai Train Blasts. 209 Killed. 25/8 2007: Hyderbad Blasts: 42 Killed Oct 11 2007: Ajmer Blasts : 2 Killed May 13 2008: Jaipur Blasts : 68 Killed July 16th 2008: Ahmedabad Blasts : 57 Killed July 25th 2008: Banglaore Blasts: 1 killed Sept 13th 2008: Delhi Blasts: 26 Killed Sept 27th 2008: Delhi Blasts: 2 Killed Sept 29th 2008 : Gujrat Blasts : 1 killed Oct 21st 2008: Imphal Blasts : 17 Killed Oct 30th 2008: Assam Blasts : 40 Killed Nov 26th 2008: Mumbai Attack: 180 killed Every major city in India has been attacked consistently over the last two years. Since 2004, 3850 Indians have died in Terror attacks in over 3000 incidents. Is the common Indian on the streets really safe ? Did you know that on the day of the Mumbai train blasts, the Government gave Rs 150 crores for earthquake relief in Pakistan ? Last year our Govt. has given Rs 3000 crores (600 Million Dollars) to Afghanistan? This, when victims of terror in India have not yet got aid? What's going on? B) Is this Government really secular ? 1) When Madrasas are being shut down in Pakistan, the Indian Government is giving them CBSE status !! It is depriving Muslim children in getting secular education. A Madrasa educated person can get a job in any government office without going through the secular education system. Can India afford to have fundamentalists in government departments? Why cannot the government shut down Madrassas and let Muslim children study with the rest? 2) Our Government has given 25 lakh scholarships ONLY to minority students. What sin have the majority done not to deserve these? Why cannot poor students of all communities be given scholarships instead of only Muslim children? 3) Thanks to the Congress led Government, out of 36000 temples in Andhra Pradesh, 28000 have closed down in the last five years. Do you want the same trend to continue in other parts of the country? Do you want a Nagaland type of situation in the whole of India? While government controls most of the Hindu temples, the minority community has had full freedom to organize their religious bodies. The minority communities now have the first right over resources. Is this not a blatant violation of fundamental rights of the majority community? 4) Why have the minorities in Nagaland, Mizoram & Kashmir not got the similar privileges like the minorities in other states? Why is the Govt following different rules for different religions? C) Is this government really making friends or enemies for India ? Thanks to a weak and visionless foreign policy, India has created enemies all around. By the Home Minister's own admission : "India is surrounded by a circle of fire". Rajiv Gandhi's vision of a powerful "SAARC" is now defunct. 1) Today, India commands little respect from all its neighbours, despite being the largest democracy in the world. 2) Terrorism has engulfed the country from inside and outside. Of course Pakistan,the motherland of international terrorism continues to be a big threat. 3) China has territorial ambitions on India. 4) Nepal, is now being headed by a Maoist government and is ideologically more aligned to China. While India helped to dismantle the dynastic rule in Nepal our own Government surreptitiously supports dynastic rule within its own party. 5) Myanmar is increasingly aligning with Chinese forces with huge Chinese investments in that region. 6) Failure of Indian Policies in Srilanka. 7) Bangladesh continues to repeatedly aid and abet terrorism. D) Is this Government really pro-poor? The number of people living below the poverty line has increased by a horrifying 20 per cent. India had some 270 million people below the poverty line in 2004-2005, when the present Government took office. That number has gone up to 325 million, an increse by 55 million, or 20 per cent! E) Does this Government really care about the nation? The Pakistani flag is now being hoisted in five districts of states like Assam where the Muslim population has gone up significantly. 92000 Hindu and 6000 Christians are now languishing in refugee camps. The government has turned a blind eye to this. In the name of security, innocent people have been put in jails, whereas people like Yaasin Malik who has 23 murder charges on him, are moving Scot free and gathering their own strength. Is it acceptable to any patriotic Indian? Can the Congress led UPA promise a non-muslim CM in J&K ? Reservation for a Hindu student in Nagaland ? If so, we wholeheartedly support them. Otherwise they should sit at home the next few years and rethink their policies. Can our politicians stop stooping down to any lengths just for money and power ? Like Mr.Sharad Pawar, who first ditched the Congress and then ditched the people and aligned back with the Congress, just to be in power and almost all the so called secular parties does the same thing. Don't be deceived. What appears to be communal is not communal, and what appears to be secular is not secular. It is time we change our thinking. Having said all this even BJP has not proved to be any better. But for now we need a change. Let us choose the lesser of the two evils. The same party brought to power again and again means encouraging unabated corruption. Stand up for this most tolerant and ancient civilization and prevent this great nation from becoming a communal battleground. As citizens of India we must vote for change. WAKE UP INDIANS. LET US VOTE FOR CHANGE. -- Dinesh Ghodke Director, WAYE World Alliance for Youth Empowerment The Art of Living Foundation Blog - www.bawandinesh.name From vashsand at hotmail.com Fri Apr 10 16:23:16 2009 From: vashsand at hotmail.com (Sandeep) Date: Fri, 10 Apr 2009 12:53:16 +0200 Subject: [Reader-list] Seize the moment Message-ID: bit soft but ok http://www.india-seminar.com/2009/593/593_javed_anand.htm Seize the moment JAVED ANAND GOOD can sometimes emerge from the ugly, evil moments; when all seems lost, a ray of light can emerge from the darkest corners. In her essay in response to the savage assault on Mumbai, ‘The Monster in the Mirror’ published by Outlook and The Guardian, UK, Arundhati Roy quite aptly places the stark options before us today and we all must choose. Only two choices, no third option: Justice or Civil War. Its difficult to disagree with what she says: how can there be peace where there is no justice? Roy’s point is not without merit. Neighbouring Pakistan seems on the brink. Rampant discrimination, demonisation, ghettoisation, marginalisation, alienation and genocidal killings thrice over in 18 years – Bhagalpur 1987, Mumbai 1992-93, Gujarat 2002 (should we also mention here the plight of the country’s other minorities, Sikhs in Delhi 1984 or Christians in Orissa 2008?) – has been pushing Indian Muslims to the precipice. Ever since 1992, establishment icons – retired and sometimes even serving judges, IAS and IPS officers – have repeatedly sent out a warning signal: by its failure to protect the life and property of a section of its citizens, the state is sowing the seeds of extremism. In early 1994, Dr Jalees Ansari was arrested on the charge of masterminding at least 40 bomb blasts in various parts of the country since the demolition of the Babri Masjid in December 1992. (He was later convicted and is still in jail.) During his interrogation the young physician said: ‘I wanted the government to know that if it cannot protect the Muslims of this country, we will protect ourselves.’ No message, no signal it seems reaches those at the helm of affairs. Who in our terror times will pay attention to the recommendations of the high-powered Sachar Committee? When will we next hear another official word on the fate of the tame Communal Violence (Prevention, Control and Rehabilitation of Victims) Bill, 2005, supposedly meant to deal with mass crimes of the Gujarat kind? In his Field Marshal K.M. Cariappa Memorial Lecture in the national capital on 17 September 2008, P.C. Chidambaram, then Union finance minister, warned of ‘new waves of terror’ resulting from the growing alienation of India’s minorities. ‘Out of the hopelessness and despair of the Muslim community – and if not addressed firmly, the Christian tribal communities too – will rise new waves of terror.’ But the messenger of our times – the media – was not interested in reaching Chidambaram’s message to the nation. Repeated reminders to the Indian state of the consequences of its failure to follow its constitutional dharma – rule of law, due process, equality before law and equal protection of law – have all been in vain. Now that Chidambaram is himself Union home minister, may we hope that he walks his talk? Choose: justice or civil war? Roy has a point, I repeat. But I also have another point to make, a hope to express. Is there no way we could cut down the choice before us from two to one: justice without civil war? The 9/11 attack on America that stunned the world also struck at the edifice of today’s Islam and that too is context. The response? Denial. A conspiracy theory hatched overnight somewhere in the Middle East seized the ummah’s mind: Muslims didn’t do it, Mossad did it, with CIA’s help. Proof? Jews who worked in the World Trade Centre, hundreds of them, stayed away from work that day because Zionists had forewarned them! Since then and until recently, too many Muslims across the globe, Indian Muslims included, remained in denial mode. Bomb blasts in London, Beslan, Madrid, Israel and even those in Saudi Arabia, Jordan, Egypt, Indonesia, Pakistan: Mossad-CIA conspirators at work! Why would the CIA and Mossad engage in such ugly orgy, going to the extent of targeting its own citizens? The answer is simple: to defame Islam, demonise Muslims! What about terror in India? Add the Sangh Parivar to the list of conspirators! The charge sheet submitted in court in August 2006 by the Anti-Terrorism Squad of the Maharashtra police; the arrest of some Hindu extremists in parts of Maharashtra this summer for bomb blasts in Thane and Panvel; the arrest of a sadhvi, a sadhu, and a serving army officer, among others for their involvement in the end-September blasts in Malegaon point to the birth of ‘Hindu terror’, at least since 2003. What is scary is the number of Hindu organizations whom the investigating agencies have implicated in the web of terror: Bajrang Dal, Shiv Sena, RSS, Shiv Sena, Bhonsala Military Academy, Abhinav Bharat, Hindu Janajagruti Samiti, Sanatan Sanstha. To the Muslim denialists, the arrival of the ‘Hindu bomb’ is the ultimate proof that the enemies of Islam and Muslims are using terror to terrorise Muslims and fuel further Islamophobia. Muslims, however, are not the only ‘denialists’ in business. Three months ago, Teesta Setalvad, co-editor of the monthly journal, Communalism Combat, obtained through an RTI application a copy of the ATS charge sheet in the Nanded blasts case (April 2006) holding members of the Bajrang Dal, VHP, RSS responsible for the blasts. We published it in our journal and presented the facts before the national press through a well-attended press conference in Delhi on 28 August 2008. Only two papers published the news, one readily, the other reluctantly. Such scandalous conduct of our ‘free press’ prompted the following comment by Outlook: ‘In a curious convergence of views, policy-makers – regardless of the party in power – administrators/police and journalists appear to be united in the belief that to put the activities of Hindu militant organizations under the scanner, in the way their Muslim counterparts are, would somehow upset the social balance.’ According to prevailing wisdom, pogroms and genocides are never referred to as ‘mob terror’ as they should rightly be called. So much easier on the conscience to keep it simple: ‘communal riots’. (Might we also recall that in very many places in Gujarat in 2002, gas cylinders were deployed as explosives to blast homes, hotels, work places and places of worship: Hindu bomb?) Back to Muslims. Though the malady is widespread, not every Muslim is a denialist. The perpetrators of 9/11 were denounced there and then. ‘Islam was hijacked on 9/11’, the US-based Christian convert to Islam, Sheikh Hamza Yusuf had declared. Soon thereafter, he affirmed that Enlightenment values and Islamic values were in consonance, not in conflict; that most western countries offer a far friendlier atmosphere for a practicing Muslim than most countries that describe themselves as ‘Islamic states’. ‘My fatwa against the fanatics’, was the title of an article London-based Ziauddin Sardar of Pakistani origin wrote in The Observer. Muslims have failed to condemn terrorism in the name of Islam as harshly and as loudly as they must, complained Sheikh Khaled Abou El Fadl in an article in the Los Angeles Times (14 July 2002). In knowledgeable circles, many consider El Fadl to be the most important and influential Islamic thinker in the modern age. An accomplished Islamic jurist and scholar, he is Professor of Law at the UCLA School of Law where he teaches Islamic law and human rights. In response to him, the Southern California chapter of the Council on American-Islamic Relations (CAIR) wrote a polite letter protesting that the Sheikh was not being fair to fellow Muslims. It drew his attention to the fact that, among other things, * Within two hours after the attacks on 9/11, a coalition of the largest American Muslim organizations consisting of the Council on American-Islamic Relations, the American Muslim Alliance, the American Muslim Council and the Muslim Public Affairs Council had issued a joint statement condemning the terrorist attacks, offered condolences to the families of those who were killed or injured and together with all Americans demanded the swift apprehension and punishment of the perpetrators. * In a nationwide call on September 11, the Council on American-Islamic Relations had urged Muslim medical professionals to go to the scenes of the attacks to offer aid and comfort, among other things. * Ever since the tragic events, Muslim organizations in the US had repeatedly condemned the terror attack on their country. * CAIR took out a full page advertisement in the Washington Post the Sunday following the attacks, stating its condemnation of the events of 9/11 and sending condolences to the victims and their families. What Dr Fadl said in reply to the CAIR letter is something that remains valid even today and bears quoting in some detail: ‘Before writing my op-ed, I also did research on the statements issued by various Muslim organizations. What I found missing is what might be called a proportional public relations campaign. Certainly, a Muslim American campaign existed but, in my view, it was not proportional to the gravity of events and accusations levelled against us. When someone threatens you with a tank, you cannot respond with a handgun. ‘We needed to respond with a concerted, systematic, unified, and unrelenting effort, considering the stakes and dangers to our religion… Considering the stakes, considering the animus and hostility to us, considering the plots and conspiracies against us, our voice, as Muslims, must be loud, resounding, and even deafening. We must be so loud to the point that we are able to drown out the voices of the Emersons and Pipes (both notorious Islamophobes) of our world.’ Sheikh Fadl did not stop there but proceeded to grab the Muslim malady by its roots: ‘Most of the (Muslim) leadership (in the West) remains to be the byproduct of an immigrant phenomenon – individuals who grew up in authoritarian cultures, who came to the USA primarily for financial reasons, and who are unable to differentiate between Arab or Indo-Pakistani culture and Islamic law. My experience is that most Muslim organizations do not have the ability to benefit from and adequately utilize their human resources; they are unable or unwilling to incorporate a dynamic process of intellectual regeneration… ‘Whether we are from the Arab or Indo-Pakistani world, it seems to me that despite the façade of democratic processes that we have learned to master in our home cultures, despotic processes and paradigms have become well-ingrained in the very psychology and intellectual fabric of our leadership. Our main organizations, despite the façade of democracy, are still trapped within the mainly despotic paradigms that they imported from back home.’ What Sheikh Fadl says of the émigré Muslim leadership in the West is no less true of the Muslim leadership in India, for example. Count Anwar Ebrahim, a former Islamist and former deputy prime minister of Malaysia, among Muslims who were shell-shocked on 9/11. Not long thereafter, he wrote that it will no longer do to try and distance Islam from the terrorism being practised in its name. Muslims must ask themselves why and how in Islamic theology and tradition there was space left for extremism and terrorism to grow roots. Many Muslim scholars and theologians have since introspected on this question and traced back the root of the problem to India. And the name of the problem is, Maulana Abul Ala Maududi, founder of the Jamaat-e-Islami. The website of the Lashkar-e-Tayyeba/Jamaat-ud-dawa tells us: ‘Islam does not mean following a few rituals like performing prayers, keeping fasts, performing the pilgrimage to the Kaaba (Haj), giving alms (zakaat), or donating to charitable works, but in fact, it is a complete Code of Life.’ Guess from where the JUD/LeT gather such wisdom? From a 1939 speech by Maududi, later published as a booklet Jihad fi Sabilillah (Jihad in Islam). Islam, for Maududi is a ‘revolutionary creed’ and Muslims means a ‘revolutionary party’. It is the duty of this vanguard to engage in jihad by ‘every means possible’ to overthrow all man-made systems ruled according to man-made laws (liberal democracy, fascism, communism) and install an Islamic state to enforce ‘Allah’s laws (shariah) on earth.’ Jihad fi Sabilillah is to a hard-core Islamist what Vladimir I. Lenin’s 1902 tract ‘What is to be Done?’ was for the Russian Bolsheviks. Both are prescriptions for a utopia on earth – Islamic state and shariah for the former, communism for the latter. Ask any Jamaat-Islami leader in India and he is sure to tell you ‘every means possible’ does not include the resort to violence. But the words and deeds of his Pakistani, Bangladeshi and Kashmiri counterparts tell us something altogether different. But Maududi’s thoughts are not confined to South Asia. He was a major inspiration for both Sayyid Qutb (Muslim Brotherhood, Egypt) and Iran’s Imam Khomeini. For Qutb (to many in the West, ‘the philosopher of Islamic terror’), violence was certainly part of the acceptable means and the enemies of Islam included Muslims who for Qutb were only so in name. Placed behind bars for years, he was finally hanged to death in 1966 by a military court set up by President Gamal Abdel Nasser. Following his death, many of his ardent followers fled to Saudi Arabia and took up the teaching profession. There, ‘Qutbism’ cross-fertilized with Wahhabism to produce a lethal hybrid. (Wahhabism is an extremely arid, insular, rigid, intolerant even fanatical version of Islam propounded by Muhammad ibn Abd-al-Wahhab in the 18th century embraced by the Saud clan, was made the official state religion on the founding of Saudi Arabia. Flush with petrodollars after the 1973 oil crisis, the Saudi monarchy has poured millions of dollars into mosques and madrasas across the world, including India, to promote an intolerant Islam to Muslims). Khomeini’s successful ‘Islamic Revolution’ in Iran in 1979 virtually coincided with the Soviet occupation of neighbouring Afghanistan. One successful revolution inspired another, so the resistance to the Soviet occupation donned a religious garb. What would otherwise have simply been a war of resistance against an occupying force overnight turned into a holy ‘jihad’. Since this was a jihad against the ‘Evil Empire’, America supported it to the hilt with billions of dollars, sophisticated weapons and training. The then President Ronald Reagan even invited monstrosities like Gulbuddin Hekmatyar (Harkatul Jihad-e-Islami) and introduced them to the American elite and the media with the words: ‘These gentlemen are the moral equivalent of our own Founding Fathers.’ Since it was a war against atheist infidels, Saudi Arabia too contributed both money and crusaders schooled in Qutbism-Wahhabism. Next, the world’s strongest democracy involved an all-too willing Pakistan into the Afghan jihad. This new engagement worked well for dictator Zia-ul-Haq who was then busy doing all he could to ‘Islamise’ Pakistani with help from Maududi’s Jamaat-e-Islami. Thus it happened that Maududiyat came to embrace Qutbism and Wahhabism in the madrasas of Pakistan. If we had the Islamic Revolution in Iran in 1979, the last Soviet troop pulled out of Afghanistan in 1989. What could be a headier moment than this for the disciples of Maududi and Qutb who had been groomed on the idea that Islam recognizes no national boundaries: for the Islamic vanguard the entire world was its arena. So from Afghanistan, the jihad travelled east for the ‘liberation’ of Kashmiri Muslims and in every other direction. No doubt the continued bleeding of Palestine, Bosnia, Chechnya provide extra-charge to the global jihadist. But it is important to remember that Maududi had foregrounded global jihad on the Muslim agenda before the surfacing of the Israeli-Palestinian conflict. Qutb’s vision, too, was never limited to the solution of the Palestinian problem. Context is important, always important, says Roy in her recent essay. She is right. But when talking of Indian Muslims, apart from the larger global contexts, we also need to factor in some specifically Muslim context. In Marxist jargon let us call them the ‘objective conditions’ and ‘subjective conditions’. A good Marxist will tell you that an ideology or a world-view is born and the human subject can intervene in history only when the ‘objective conditions’ are ripe. All credit is due to the Indian state and the Sangh Parivar for creating the objective condition necessary for the birth of the Muslim terrorist on Indian soil. Read reports of the intelligence wings of the Border Security Force from different states – Gujarat, Rajasthan, Punjab, Kashmir, West Bengal, Assam – and they almost read like carbon copies of each other. They all go something like the following: On 6 December 1992, the Babri Masjid was demolished. After that Pakistan’s ISI, which so far had failed to strike a chord among Indian Muslims, found its window of opportunity. Even before 6 December 1992, Indian Muslims had lived through the trauma of Jamshedpur, Ahmedabad, Bhiwandi-Kalyan, Moradabad, Nellie massacre (Assam), Meerut-Malliana, Bhagalpur to name just a few. None of these, however, led to a terror act in response. If the credit for preparing the objective conditions goes to the Indian state, the Maududiyat-Qutbism-Wahhabism that was spreading its tentacles in the neighbourhood must assume collective responsibility for poisoning the Muslim mind (subjective conditions). In a paper titled ‘Erosion of Secularism, Explosion of Jihad’, Irfan Ahmed, an anthropologist from the University of Amsterdam, The Netherlands, links the Islamist radicalization in India to the failure of the state. ‘SIMI’s (Students Islamic Movement of India) radicalization unfolded in direct response to the rise of virulent Hindu nationalism or ‘Hindutva’… As the assault on secularism by Hindutva – culminating in the demolition of the Babri mosque and accompanied with large-scale violence against Muslims – grew fiercer, so did SIMI’s call for jihad.’ But Ahmed’s thesis is only partially true. While it helps us understand how Indian Muslims were pushed towards militancy, it does not explain why it donned the garb of jihad and shahadat (martyrdom). The LTTE, for example, is a lethal terrorist outfit, but it does not wear its Hinduism on its sleeves. SIMI’s stated objectives on inception (1977) may earlier have been different. But it cannot be denied that the moment it took a radical turn in the late ’80s, it needed no theological leap before jumping onto the global jihad bandwagon in spirit if not in immediate action. After all, it emerged from the womb of the Jamaat-e-Islami, the organization founded by the original guru of global jihad. In his well-researched paper on SIMI, Yoginder Sikand rightly observes that there was nothing more than some feeble protest from some Muslim organizations when SIMI was first banned in 2001, even though the then NDA government led by A.B. Vajpayee ignored the demand of the governments of Maharashtra, Madhya Pradesh and Rajasthan for a simultaneous ban on Bajrang Dal. ‘Muslim organizations realized, as never before,’ wrote Sikand, ‘that the aggressive confrontationist stance of groups like the SIMI could hardly serve the community. Rather, it had only made their situation as a beleaguered minority even more precarious.’ However, Muslim religious and political organizations, the Urdu media and the Jamaat-e-Islami in particular cannot escape responsibility for having remained silent spectators while an entire generation of Muslim youth full of dedication, commitment and drive took to the path of self-destruction. Hardly anyone said anything in the ’80s when SIMI plastered Muslim homes, shops and offices with attention grabbing stickers proclaiming: ‘Secularism, NO! Democracy, NO! Nationalism, NO! Polytheism, NO! Only Islam!’ Again, no one said anything when following the demolition of the Babri Masjid, for several years running, SIMI plastered Muslim mohallas across the country with posters with the invocation: ‘Ya Ilahi, bhej de Mahmood koi (Oh Allah, send us a Mahmud)’. Who did not know that the reference was to Mahmud Ghaznavi whom the fanatics among Muslims revere as a ‘But Shikan’ (Destroyer of Idols; recall his repeated pillage of the Somnath mandir)? Yet again, no one asked the SIMI youth what they meant by their daily chant: ‘Allah Maqsad hamara, Rasool rahbar hamara, Quran dastoor hamara, Jihad raasta hamara, shahadat manzil hamari’ (Allah is our mission, Prophet our path-giver, Quran our constitution, jihad our path, martyrdom our destination). What could jihad plus shahadat possibly mean? Through the headline of an article I wrote in the October 2001 issue of Communalism Combat, I had raised the question: ‘Why be shy about SIMI?’ The introduction to the article said: ‘The objection to the selective ban on SIMI may be valid. But Muslim religious and political leaders cannot run away from the question why never in the nearly 25-year-old history of SIMI have they spoken out publicly against an organization that is a self-declared enemy of "democracy, socialism, nationalism and polytheism’’.’ A large number among the readers of CC across the country are Muslims. The response from them as also others: silence. I do not recall a single conversation or a letter either agreeing or disagreeing with what I then wrote. 26/11 must not mean India’s 9/11 in the sense that India needs to behave more responsibly and maturely than President Bush, a man considered a ‘war criminal’ by millions of Americans. But within the Muslim/Islam reference frame, 26/11 has meant for Indian Muslims what 9/11 meant for American Muslims and that’s a most welcome development. The sheer savagery and bestiality that 26/11 involved has jolted the Indian Muslim out of his mode of denial. Sweeping aside the conspiracy theorists, Muslims in Mumbai and elsewhere in the country have poured out of their homes to join fellow Indians in denouncing the perpetrators of the monstrosity, expressing anguish at the fragility of our security system, sending out condolence messages to the family members of those who were killed and paying homage to police officers and NSG commandos who died in the line of duty. This was the obvious thing to do. But more importantly, they instinctively grasped the need to also stand up as Muslims to make a Muslim statement. The trustee of one graveyard in Mumbai announced that under no circumstance will they permit the burial of the nine terrorists who had been gunned down. ‘Our graveyard is for Muslims, mass murderers can’t be Muslims,’ he said. No sooner had he said it, the rest of the city’s Muslims took the same stand. The Maharashtra government then announced that it will offer the bodies to Pakistan as all were Pakistani nationals, failing which they will be buried at some undisclosed place outside Mumbai. An all-India organization of imams who lead prayers in mosques asked Muslims to observe Eid this time in a subdued and sober way. News channels on Eid day and newspapers the next morning flashed images of Muslims in different parts of the country praying with a black band around their arms. But the most significant statement from Indian Muslims was made on Sunday, 7 December. Around 1 December, Muslims for Secular Democracy, thought of mobilising 50-100 Muslims in Mumbai to take out a silent march from Chattrapati Shivaji Train Terminus (where the aam aadmi was targeted) to Oberoi-Trident (where the elite were the target). No slogans, no speeches, we decided. Our banners and placards will speak for us, but they will say things that have never till date been said. We will name all the terrorist organizations that come to mind and denounce them all – from Al Qaeda and Osama Bin Laden to SIMI and Indian Mujahideen. To our very pleasant surprise, some 3,000 Muslims turned up for the Mumbai march. The participants included scores of maulanas and muftis who brought their madrasa students along. Celebrities were there and so also businessmen and professionals who probably had never marched the streets in their life. Jean-clad Muslim women marched alongside those in burqa. As thrilling was the fact that thanks to the Jamiat-ul-ulema-e-Hind led by Maulana Mehmood Madni and numerous other religious, educational cultural bodies, similar silent marches were held – same day, same time – in 10 other cities, including Delhi, Lucknow, Kolkota, Hyderabad. The two common banners under which we marched everywhere were: ‘Watan ke dushman, hamare dushman’ (‘enemies of our motherland are our enemies’), ‘Begunahon ke qaatil, Islam ke dushman’ (‘killers of innocents are enemies of Islam’). When in mid-August, The Indian Express published an article by me asking Muslims to beware of SIMI, a lot of secular Hindus were aghast. But in Mumbai on 7 December, it was madrasa students who carried our big banner on which were named all the enemies of democratic India and Islam, including SIMI and Indian Mujahideen. Some organizations refrained from naming SIMI and Indian Mujahideen. But they had no hesitation walking together with others who did. If 26/11 threw open the floodgates of Indian Muslim sentiment, Maulana Mehmood Madni’s faction of the Jamiat deserves high praise for taking the lead in stepping out of the denial mode and launching a countrywide campaign this year to denounce terrorism of all kinds, particularly that committed in the name of Islam. The Jamaat-e-Islami is now under a lot of pressure from other mainstream Muslim bodies to shed its ambivalence over SIMI. One out of every six Muslims in the world is an Indian. He has spoken out this time, loud and clear. It is for the Indian state to now step out of its own state of denial and show us that it, too, is opposed to all forms of terror, including its own. The secular Hindu, too, must respond to the need of the hour. The majority communalism, minority communalism distinction will no longer do. One reinforces the other and communalism is a South Asian malaise, not just an Indian one. What is minority communalism in India is majority communalism on both sides of the border. I also suspect that the soft on minority communalism attitude is not just a problem of theory. It probably also has to do with guilt for not speaking out loud enough when the communal Hindu demonises Muslims, and not asking the state to task for its failure to protect Muslim life and property. The choice is obvious: act, speak out against violence whoever the perpetrator, demand justice for all. If only we can seize it, India’s worst nightmare could also be its defining moment. _________________________________________________________________ More than messages–check out the rest of the Windows Live™. http://www.microsoft.com/windows/windowslive/ From pawan.durani at gmail.com Fri Apr 10 16:28:43 2009 From: pawan.durani at gmail.com (Pawan Durani) Date: Fri, 10 Apr 2009 16:28:43 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] interesting facts In-Reply-To: <002601c9b9c7$0755e530$0201a8c0@limo> References: <002601c9b9c7$0755e530$0201a8c0@limo> Message-ID: <6b79f1a70904100358y4299e1d3p715dc3aef750b469@mail.gmail.com> Interesting facts....... On Fri, Apr 10, 2009 at 3:58 PM, bipin wrote: > Dear All, > > I am giving interesting facts giving as under published by Art of Living > Foundations. Please read it carefully. It clear assessment of present govt. > > > A) Is this Government really protecting us??!! > > 7/11 2006: Mumbai Train Blasts. 209 Killed. > 25/8 2007: Hyderbad Blasts: 42 Killed > Oct 11 2007: Ajmer Blasts : 2 Killed > May 13 2008: Jaipur Blasts : 68 Killed > July 16th 2008: Ahmedabad Blasts : 57 Killed > July 25th 2008: Banglaore Blasts: 1 killed > Sept 13th 2008: Delhi Blasts: 26 Killed > Sept 27th 2008: Delhi Blasts: 2 Killed > Sept 29th 2008 : Gujrat Blasts : 1 killed > Oct 21st 2008: Imphal Blasts : 17 Killed > Oct 30th 2008: Assam Blasts : 40 Killed > Nov 26th 2008: Mumbai Attack: 180 killed > > Every major city in India has been attacked consistently over the last > two years. > Since 2004, 3850 Indians have died in Terror attacks in over 3000 > incidents. > Is the common Indian on the streets really safe ? > > Did you know that on the day of the Mumbai train blasts, the > Government gave Rs 150 crores for earthquake relief in Pakistan ? Last > year our Govt. has given Rs 3000 crores (600 Million Dollars) to > Afghanistan? This, when victims of terror in India have not yet got > aid? What's going on? > > B) Is this Government really secular ? > > 1) When Madrasas are being shut down in Pakistan, the Indian > Government is giving them CBSE status !! It is depriving Muslim > children in getting secular education. A Madrasa educated person can > get a job in any government office without going through the secular > education system. Can India afford to have fundamentalists in > government departments? Why cannot the government shut down Madrassas > and let Muslim children study with the rest? > > 2) Our Government has given 25 lakh scholarships ONLY to minority students. > What sin have the majority done not to deserve these? > Why cannot poor students of all communities be given scholarships > instead of only Muslim children? > > 3) Thanks to the Congress led Government, out of 36000 temples in > Andhra Pradesh, 28000 have closed down in the last five years. Do you > want the same trend to continue in other parts of the country? Do you > want a Nagaland type of situation in the whole of India? While > government controls most of the Hindu temples, the minority community > has had full freedom to organize their religious bodies. The minority > communities now have the first right over resources. Is this not a > blatant violation of fundamental rights of the majority community? > > 4) Why have the minorities in Nagaland, Mizoram & Kashmir not got the > similar privileges like the minorities in other states? Why is the > Govt following different rules for different religions? > > C) Is this government really making friends or enemies for India ? > > Thanks to a weak and visionless foreign policy, India has created > enemies all around. By the Home Minister's own admission : "India is > surrounded by a circle of fire". Rajiv Gandhi's vision of a powerful > "SAARC" is now defunct. > > 1) Today, India commands little respect from all its neighbours, > despite being the largest democracy in the world. > 2) Terrorism has engulfed the country from inside and outside. Of > course Pakistan,the motherland of international terrorism continues to > be a big threat. > 3) China has territorial ambitions on India. > 4) Nepal, is now being headed by a Maoist government and is > ideologically more aligned to China. While India helped to dismantle > the dynastic rule in Nepal our own Government surreptitiously supports > dynastic rule within its own party. > 5) Myanmar is increasingly aligning with Chinese forces with huge > Chinese investments in that region. > 6) Failure of Indian Policies in Srilanka. > 7) Bangladesh continues to repeatedly aid and abet terrorism. > > D) Is this Government really pro-poor? > > The number of people living below the poverty line has increased by a > horrifying 20 per cent. India had some 270 million people below the > poverty line in 2004-2005, when the present Government took office. > That number has gone up to 325 million, an increse by 55 million, or 20 per > cent! > > E) Does this Government really care about the nation? > > The Pakistani flag is now being hoisted in five districts of states > like Assam where the Muslim population has gone up significantly. > 92000 Hindu and 6000 Christians are now languishing in refugee camps. > The government has turned a blind eye to this. > > In the name of security, innocent people have been put in jails, > whereas people like Yaasin Malik who has 23 murder charges on him, are > moving Scot free and gathering their own strength. Is it acceptable to > any patriotic Indian? > > Can the Congress led UPA promise a non-muslim CM in J&K ? Reservation > for a Hindu student in Nagaland ? If so, we wholeheartedly support > them. Otherwise they should sit at home the next few years and rethink > their policies. > > Can our politicians stop stooping down to any lengths just for money > and power ? Like Mr.Sharad Pawar, who first ditched the Congress and > then ditched the people and aligned back with the Congress, just to be > in power and almost all the so called secular parties does the same thing. > > Don't be deceived. What appears to be communal is not communal, and > what appears to be secular is not secular. It is time we change our > thinking. > > Having said all this even BJP has not proved to be any better. > But for now we need a change. Let us choose the lesser of the two evils. > The same party brought to power again and again means encouraging > unabated corruption. > > Stand up for this most tolerant and ancient civilization and prevent > this great nation from becoming a communal battleground. As citizens > of India we must vote for change. > > WAKE UP INDIANS. LET US VOTE FOR CHANGE. > > > -- > Dinesh Ghodke > Director, WAYE > World Alliance for Youth Empowerment > The Art of Living Foundation > Blog - www.bawandinesh.name > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > subscribe in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> From c.anupam at gmail.com Fri Apr 10 16:35:07 2009 From: c.anupam at gmail.com (anupam chakravartty) Date: Fri, 10 Apr 2009 16:35:07 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] An appeal on the eve of Forthcoming elections. In-Reply-To: <61164a90904100243pdca0e3cl2608477c0f7bdccd@mail.gmail.com> References: <61164a90904100243pdca0e3cl2608477c0f7bdccd@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <341380d00904100405k71bacf91n9f0ca4c60dca2539@mail.gmail.com> Dear Rajen, It is unfortunate that your opinions sound like Narendra Modi's recent speech clearly representing the BJP opinion. Kindly do not forward such propaganda in this list trying to manufacture consent among the reader's by turning a blind eye toward right wing violence and their project of destablising india. -anupam On 4/10/09, Rajen Uppinangadi wrote: > > Dear Sir, > that you should use the forum like sarai and its reader-list to white > wash one political party and try to tarnish image of another politcal party > is beyond explanation, may be except that it is your freedom of expression, > to say the least. > > The reasons for this observation are that the list is useful to the > society with international membership from different corners of the world, > and you are whitewashing one party whatever remains of it in skeletal form > after 1947 in free India. The most corrupt governance of the party is well > known to the world as Olof Palme of Sweden had to pay the price after the > bofors deal for facilitation of bribes. ! > > As to Indian National Congress founded by Allan J Hume 1889 for > facilitating > good governance in british India for the natives, it has history of splits > and divisions and this even before the freedom struggle resulted in free > India. In 1939, Jinna who got elected as president felt that his community > was being treated unfairly and split to form All India muslim league, ,in > 1942, though the delegates elected Netaji Subhash as president, Gandhiji > overlooked this, over-ruled to put Nehru as president, who most of his > tenure spent time in guest houses like the present day lalu, when arrested, > moreover Nehru was never detained in any jail, but only in guest > houses.Many > thousands of citizens in british India sacrificed in the freedom struggle > and today the skeletal remains of Indian National Congress has not even one > genuine freedom fighter in it , as anybody can see it has only slohgan > shouting brigades and goons like Jagadeesh tytler, Sajan Kumar Tak, > Kamalnath, HKL Bhagath( now dead) who led the mobs in massacre of 1984. > Even > after 25 years, not even chargesheet is filed against a single individual > for this massacre where every hour saw the brutal killing, burning of > innocents on the streets of Delhi.Brilliant lawyers have been made MPs for > their excellent defence of the criminals like these, and they are the > spokes > person for the nearly dead party. India, free India can never forgive and > forget the role of Indian national Congress in fomenting communal riots and > later rewarding the riot leaders with MP and MLA tikets for their brutal > behaviour. As to the splits and divisions, even after free India and the > rule of Congress, 1969 saw the complete take over of this party by dynasty > of Nehru, the Indira Priyadarshini who did not hesitate to leave her > husband > to die lonely death for power. Feroz Shah Khan was the lone voice that > challenged Nehru on the then infamous Mundra Insurance scam, TT > Krishnamachari, then finance minister carried the cross for nehru, that is > another matter. With so many splits and divisions and all the tall leaders > getting thrown out of the party, history was re written with Nehru as > central figure for the freedom and development, when this debauch leader > was > busy with hs adventures, and media was not bullish as it is now to have the > stings and coverage of Nehru and his escapades.! > > Bofors scandal and its subsequent law taking its own course saw the corrupt > side of judciary and the lawyers who were promoted, for delaying the due > process of law, autonomous institutions like CBI became poodles instead of > being the hounds to investigate.Emergency and subsequent crawling media and > judiciary saw the ation in disgust as but for one Justice Khanna, the > judiciary would have been the chamchas of the INC.Later citizens have seen > the law taking its own course, with judges playing with their dates of > births, fudging with reports of judicial commissions and when the political > parties say, law will take its course, they mean, they will allow the law > to > take a course that is convenient to them as seen by the citizens in bofors > scam, fodder scam and subsequent evens where no single party can claim > higher moral ground. > > So, please let the citizens decide whom they want to vote with their > intellect, as they have choice of murderers, dacoits and pickpockets to > choose from.? > > As to honesty of the prime minister, nation and its citizen have seen the > role of corruption, money power and votes of convicts, murderers brought > out > of jails to vote for the deal, dishonestly tainting the N-deal.? > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > subscribe in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> From c.anupam at gmail.com Fri Apr 10 18:25:25 2009 From: c.anupam at gmail.com (anupam chakravartty) Date: Fri, 10 Apr 2009 18:25:25 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Fwd: interesting facts In-Reply-To: <341380d00904100554o750ef5efgc943a341d73e2ec0@mail.gmail.com> References: <002601c9b9c7$0755e530$0201a8c0@limo> <6b79f1a70904100358y4299e1d3p715dc3aef750b469@mail.gmail.com> <341380d00904100554o750ef5efgc943a341d73e2ec0@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <341380d00904100555o1af61e9x57996cc88adb67f@mail.gmail.com> ---------- Forwarded message ---------- From: anupam chakravartty Date: Apr 10, 2009 6:24 PM Subject: Re: [Reader-list] interesting facts To: Pawan Durani Dear Bipin, Though i agree with you on most of the facts. there is one thing i wanted to point out stated by the writer. he says that five refugee camps hoisted the pakistani flags in assam. do you know what that was for? over night 55 bodos and 45 muslims were killed. hundreds were homeless in udalguri and barpeta. these refugees needed to identify the camps which had other muslim refugees. the sickle and the star on green background is islamic symbol just like the aum symbol or the star of david. thanks anupam On 4/10/09, Pawan Durani wrote: > > Interesting facts....... > > On Fri, Apr 10, 2009 at 3:58 PM, bipin wrote: > > > Dear All, > > > > I am giving interesting facts giving as under published by Art of Living > > Foundations. Please read it carefully. It clear assessment of present > govt. > > > > > > A) Is this Government really protecting us??!! > > > > 7/11 2006: Mumbai Train Blasts. 209 Killed. > > 25/8 2007: Hyderbad Blasts: 42 Killed > > Oct 11 2007: Ajmer Blasts : 2 Killed > > May 13 2008: Jaipur Blasts : 68 Killed > > July 16th 2008: Ahmedabad Blasts : 57 Killed > > July 25th 2008: Banglaore Blasts: 1 killed > > Sept 13th 2008: Delhi Blasts: 26 Killed > > Sept 27th 2008: Delhi Blasts: 2 Killed > > Sept 29th 2008 : Gujrat Blasts : 1 killed > > Oct 21st 2008: Imphal Blasts : 17 Killed > > Oct 30th 2008: Assam Blasts : 40 Killed > > Nov 26th 2008: Mumbai Attack: 180 killed > > > > Every major city in India has been attacked consistently over the last > > two years. > > Since 2004, 3850 Indians have died in Terror attacks in over 3000 > > incidents. > > Is the common Indian on the streets really safe ? > > > > Did you know that on the day of the Mumbai train blasts, the > > Government gave Rs 150 crores for earthquake relief in Pakistan ? Last > > year our Govt. has given Rs 3000 crores (600 Million Dollars) to > > Afghanistan? This, when victims of terror in India have not yet got > > aid? What's going on? > > > > B) Is this Government really secular ? > > > > 1) When Madrasas are being shut down in Pakistan, the Indian > > Government is giving them CBSE status !! It is depriving Muslim > > children in getting secular education. A Madrasa educated person can > > get a job in any government office without going through the secular > > education system. Can India afford to have fundamentalists in > > government departments? Why cannot the government shut down Madrassas > > and let Muslim children study with the rest? > > > > 2) Our Government has given 25 lakh scholarships ONLY to minority > students. > > What sin have the majority done not to deserve these? > > Why cannot poor students of all communities be given scholarships > > instead of only Muslim children? > > > > 3) Thanks to the Congress led Government, out of 36000 temples in > > Andhra Pradesh, 28000 have closed down in the last five years. Do you > > want the same trend to continue in other parts of the country? Do you > > want a Nagaland type of situation in the whole of India? While > > government controls most of the Hindu temples, the minority community > > has had full freedom to organize their religious bodies. The minority > > communities now have the first right over resources. Is this not a > > blatant violation of fundamental rights of the majority community? > > > > 4) Why have the minorities in Nagaland, Mizoram & Kashmir not got the > > similar privileges like the minorities in other states? Why is the > > Govt following different rules for different religions? > > > > C) Is this government really making friends or enemies for India ? > > > > Thanks to a weak and visionless foreign policy, India has created > > enemies all around. By the Home Minister's own admission : "India is > > surrounded by a circle of fire". Rajiv Gandhi's vision of a powerful > > "SAARC" is now defunct. > > > > 1) Today, India commands little respect from all its neighbours, > > despite being the largest democracy in the world. > > 2) Terrorism has engulfed the country from inside and outside. Of > > course Pakistan,the motherland of international terrorism continues to > > be a big threat. > > 3) China has territorial ambitions on India. > > 4) Nepal, is now being headed by a Maoist government and is > > ideologically more aligned to China. While India helped to dismantle > > the dynastic rule in Nepal our own Government surreptitiously supports > > dynastic rule within its own party. > > 5) Myanmar is increasingly aligning with Chinese forces with huge > > Chinese investments in that region. > > 6) Failure of Indian Policies in Srilanka. > > 7) Bangladesh continues to repeatedly aid and abet terrorism. > > > > D) Is this Government really pro-poor? > > > > The number of people living below the poverty line has increased by a > > horrifying 20 per cent. India had some 270 million people below the > > poverty line in 2004-2005, when the present Government took office. > > That number has gone up to 325 million, an increse by 55 million, or 20 > per > > cent! > > > > E) Does this Government really care about the nation? > > > > The Pakistani flag is now being hoisted in five districts of states > > like Assam where the Muslim population has gone up significantly. > > 92000 Hindu and 6000 Christians are now languishing in refugee camps. > > The government has turned a blind eye to this. > > > > In the name of security, innocent people have been put in jails, > > whereas people like Yaasin Malik who has 23 murder charges on him, are > > moving Scot free and gathering their own strength. Is it acceptable to > > any patriotic Indian? > > > > Can the Congress led UPA promise a non-muslim CM in J&K ? Reservation > > for a Hindu student in Nagaland ? If so, we wholeheartedly support > > them. Otherwise they should sit at home the next few years and rethink > > their policies. > > > > Can our politicians stop stooping down to any lengths just for money > > and power ? Like Mr.Sharad Pawar, who first ditched the Congress and > > then ditched the people and aligned back with the Congress, just to be > > in power and almost all the so called secular parties does the same > thing. > > > > Don't be deceived. What appears to be communal is not communal, and > > what appears to be secular is not secular. It is time we change our > > thinking. > > > > Having said all this even BJP has not proved to be any better. > > But for now we need a change. Let us choose the lesser of the two evils. > > The same party brought to power again and again means encouraging > > unabated corruption. > > > > Stand up for this most tolerant and ancient civilization and prevent > > this great nation from becoming a communal battleground. As citizens > > of India we must vote for change. > > > > WAKE UP INDIANS. LET US VOTE FOR CHANGE. > > > > > > -- > > Dinesh Ghodke > > Director, WAYE > > World Alliance for Youth Empowerment > > The Art of Living Foundation > > Blog - www.bawandinesh.name > > _________________________________________ > > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > > Critiques & Collaborations > > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > > subscribe in the subject header. > > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > subscribe in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> From pawan.durani at gmail.com Fri Apr 10 19:04:24 2009 From: pawan.durani at gmail.com (Pawan Durani) Date: Fri, 10 Apr 2009 19:04:24 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Fwd: interesting facts In-Reply-To: <341380d00904100555o1af61e9x57996cc88adb67f@mail.gmail.com> References: <002601c9b9c7$0755e530$0201a8c0@limo> <6b79f1a70904100358y4299e1d3p715dc3aef750b469@mail.gmail.com> <341380d00904100554o750ef5efgc943a341d73e2ec0@mail.gmail.com> <341380d00904100555o1af61e9x57996cc88adb67f@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <6b79f1a70904100634u470fb903w5256c0ecbae2a879@mail.gmail.com> Dear Anupam Ji , You have often negated the news that Pakistani flag had been hoisted in Assam . I fail to understand why do we always have to be 'sickular' and provide wrong justifications and avoid truth. An islamic flag is a a complete green flag with the symbol of crescent / star in it. While as a pakistani flag has a white border attached to it on the side which is closer to the pole on which it is hoisted. The flag which were hoisted were pure pakistani flag and you can check from the video at this link http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0oI-PjQkXx4 You and me may differ on many things , but i do not expect you to lie and provide wrong justification which moves us away from reality. The Pakistani flags were hoisted at following places in Assam....Sonaripara primary school ground, Kalaigaon and Mohanppur in Udalguri . Hope the video [ Times Now reporting ] would enlighten you as well as many other 'sickulars'. Regards pawan On Fri, Apr 10, 2009 at 6:25 PM, anupam chakravartty wrote: > ---------- Forwarded message ---------- > From: anupam chakravartty > Date: Apr 10, 2009 6:24 PM > Subject: Re: [Reader-list] interesting facts > To: Pawan Durani > > Dear Bipin, > > Though i agree with you on most of the facts. there is one thing i wanted > to > point out stated by the writer. he says that five refugee camps hoisted the > pakistani flags in assam. do you know what that was for? > > over night 55 bodos and 45 muslims were killed. hundreds were homeless in > udalguri and barpeta. these refugees needed to identify the camps which had > other muslim refugees. the sickle and the star on green background is > islamic symbol just like the aum symbol or the star of david. > thanks anupam > > > On 4/10/09, Pawan Durani wrote: > > > > Interesting facts....... > > > > On Fri, Apr 10, 2009 at 3:58 PM, bipin wrote: > > > > > Dear All, > > > > > > I am giving interesting facts giving as under published by Art of > Living > > > Foundations. Please read it carefully. It clear assessment of present > > govt. > > > > > > > > > A) Is this Government really protecting us??!! > > > > > > 7/11 2006: Mumbai Train Blasts. 209 Killed. > > > 25/8 2007: Hyderbad Blasts: 42 Killed > > > Oct 11 2007: Ajmer Blasts : 2 Killed > > > May 13 2008: Jaipur Blasts : 68 Killed > > > July 16th 2008: Ahmedabad Blasts : 57 Killed > > > July 25th 2008: Banglaore Blasts: 1 killed > > > Sept 13th 2008: Delhi Blasts: 26 Killed > > > Sept 27th 2008: Delhi Blasts: 2 Killed > > > Sept 29th 2008 : Gujrat Blasts : 1 killed > > > Oct 21st 2008: Imphal Blasts : 17 Killed > > > Oct 30th 2008: Assam Blasts : 40 Killed > > > Nov 26th 2008: Mumbai Attack: 180 killed > > > > > > Every major city in India has been attacked consistently over the last > > > two years. > > > Since 2004, 3850 Indians have died in Terror attacks in over 3000 > > > incidents. > > > Is the common Indian on the streets really safe ? > > > > > > Did you know that on the day of the Mumbai train blasts, the > > > Government gave Rs 150 crores for earthquake relief in Pakistan ? Last > > > year our Govt. has given Rs 3000 crores (600 Million Dollars) to > > > Afghanistan? This, when victims of terror in India have not yet got > > > aid? What's going on? > > > > > > B) Is this Government really secular ? > > > > > > 1) When Madrasas are being shut down in Pakistan, the Indian > > > Government is giving them CBSE status !! It is depriving Muslim > > > children in getting secular education. A Madrasa educated person can > > > get a job in any government office without going through the secular > > > education system. Can India afford to have fundamentalists in > > > government departments? Why cannot the government shut down Madrassas > > > and let Muslim children study with the rest? > > > > > > 2) Our Government has given 25 lakh scholarships ONLY to minority > > students. > > > What sin have the majority done not to deserve these? > > > Why cannot poor students of all communities be given scholarships > > > instead of only Muslim children? > > > > > > 3) Thanks to the Congress led Government, out of 36000 temples in > > > Andhra Pradesh, 28000 have closed down in the last five years. Do you > > > want the same trend to continue in other parts of the country? Do you > > > want a Nagaland type of situation in the whole of India? While > > > government controls most of the Hindu temples, the minority community > > > has had full freedom to organize their religious bodies. The minority > > > communities now have the first right over resources. Is this not a > > > blatant violation of fundamental rights of the majority community? > > > > > > 4) Why have the minorities in Nagaland, Mizoram & Kashmir not got the > > > similar privileges like the minorities in other states? Why is the > > > Govt following different rules for different religions? > > > > > > C) Is this government really making friends or enemies for India ? > > > > > > Thanks to a weak and visionless foreign policy, India has created > > > enemies all around. By the Home Minister's own admission : "India is > > > surrounded by a circle of fire". Rajiv Gandhi's vision of a powerful > > > "SAARC" is now defunct. > > > > > > 1) Today, India commands little respect from all its neighbours, > > > despite being the largest democracy in the world. > > > 2) Terrorism has engulfed the country from inside and outside. Of > > > course Pakistan,the motherland of international terrorism continues to > > > be a big threat. > > > 3) China has territorial ambitions on India. > > > 4) Nepal, is now being headed by a Maoist government and is > > > ideologically more aligned to China. While India helped to dismantle > > > the dynastic rule in Nepal our own Government surreptitiously supports > > > dynastic rule within its own party. > > > 5) Myanmar is increasingly aligning with Chinese forces with huge > > > Chinese investments in that region. > > > 6) Failure of Indian Policies in Srilanka. > > > 7) Bangladesh continues to repeatedly aid and abet terrorism. > > > > > > D) Is this Government really pro-poor? > > > > > > The number of people living below the poverty line has increased by a > > > horrifying 20 per cent. India had some 270 million people below the > > > poverty line in 2004-2005, when the present Government took office. > > > That number has gone up to 325 million, an increse by 55 million, or 20 > > per > > > cent! > > > > > > E) Does this Government really care about the nation? > > > > > > The Pakistani flag is now being hoisted in five districts of states > > > like Assam where the Muslim population has gone up significantly. > > > 92000 Hindu and 6000 Christians are now languishing in refugee camps. > > > The government has turned a blind eye to this. > > > > > > In the name of security, innocent people have been put in jails, > > > whereas people like Yaasin Malik who has 23 murder charges on him, are > > > moving Scot free and gathering their own strength. Is it acceptable to > > > any patriotic Indian? > > > > > > Can the Congress led UPA promise a non-muslim CM in J&K ? Reservation > > > for a Hindu student in Nagaland ? If so, we wholeheartedly support > > > them. Otherwise they should sit at home the next few years and rethink > > > their policies. > > > > > > Can our politicians stop stooping down to any lengths just for money > > > and power ? Like Mr.Sharad Pawar, who first ditched the Congress and > > > then ditched the people and aligned back with the Congress, just to be > > > in power and almost all the so called secular parties does the same > > thing. > > > > > > Don't be deceived. What appears to be communal is not communal, and > > > what appears to be secular is not secular. It is time we change our > > > thinking. > > > > > > Having said all this even BJP has not proved to be any better. > > > But for now we need a change. Let us choose the lesser of the two > evils. > > > The same party brought to power again and again means encouraging > > > unabated corruption. > > > > > > Stand up for this most tolerant and ancient civilization and prevent > > > this great nation from becoming a communal battleground. As citizens > > > of India we must vote for change. > > > > > > WAKE UP INDIANS. LET US VOTE FOR CHANGE. > > > > > > > > > -- > > > Dinesh Ghodke > > > Director, WAYE > > > World Alliance for Youth Empowerment > > > The Art of Living Foundation > > > Blog - www.bawandinesh.name > > > _________________________________________ > > > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > > > Critiques & Collaborations > > > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > > > subscribe in the subject header. > > > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > > > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> > > _________________________________________ > > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > > Critiques & Collaborations > > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > > subscribe in the subject header. > > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > subscribe in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> > From c.anupam at gmail.com Fri Apr 10 20:59:44 2009 From: c.anupam at gmail.com (anupam chakravartty) Date: Fri, 10 Apr 2009 20:59:44 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Fwd: interesting facts In-Reply-To: <6b79f1a70904100634u470fb903w5256c0ecbae2a879@mail.gmail.com> References: <002601c9b9c7$0755e530$0201a8c0@limo> <6b79f1a70904100358y4299e1d3p715dc3aef750b469@mail.gmail.com> <341380d00904100554o750ef5efgc943a341d73e2ec0@mail.gmail.com> <341380d00904100555o1af61e9x57996cc88adb67f@mail.gmail.com> <6b79f1a70904100634u470fb903w5256c0ecbae2a879@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <341380d00904100829w1050a67fn17987a1cd82887b8@mail.gmail.com> Dear Pawan, Your understanding is based on a youtube video. there fore your perception is coloured. if you want to call a spade, a spade. you really ought to be present there. your youtube evidence doesnt go in the court of the law. for your kind information, after watching the same video, district collectors and mamladars from that area visited those camps. kindly stop using 'sickular'. i would consider it derogatory. On 4/10/09, Pawan Durani wrote: > > Dear Anupam Ji , > > You have often negated the news that Pakistani flag had been hoisted in > Assam . I fail to understand why do we always have to be 'sickular' and > provide wrong justifications and avoid truth. > > An islamic flag is a a complete green flag with the symbol of crescent / > star in it. While as a pakistani flag has a white border attached to it on > the side which is closer to the pole on which it is hoisted. > > The flag which were hoisted were pure pakistani flag and you can check from > the video at this link > > http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0oI-PjQkXx4 > > You and me may differ on many things , but i do not expect you to lie and > provide wrong justification which moves us away from reality. > > The Pakistani flags were hoisted at following places in Assam....Sonaripara > primary school ground, Kalaigaon and Mohanppur in Udalguri . > > Hope the video [ Times Now reporting ] would enlighten you as well as many > other 'sickulars'. > > Regards > > pawan > > > > On Fri, Apr 10, 2009 at 6:25 PM, anupam chakravartty wrote: > >> ---------- Forwarded message ---------- >> From: anupam chakravartty >> Date: Apr 10, 2009 6:24 PM >> Subject: Re: [Reader-list] interesting facts >> To: Pawan Durani >> >> Dear Bipin, >> >> Though i agree with you on most of the facts. there is one thing i wanted >> to >> point out stated by the writer. he says that five refugee camps hoisted >> the >> pakistani flags in assam. do you know what that was for? >> >> over night 55 bodos and 45 muslims were killed. hundreds were homeless in >> udalguri and barpeta. these refugees needed to identify the camps which >> had >> other muslim refugees. the sickle and the star on green background is >> islamic symbol just like the aum symbol or the star of david. >> thanks anupam >> >> >> On 4/10/09, Pawan Durani wrote: >> > >> > Interesting facts....... >> > >> > On Fri, Apr 10, 2009 at 3:58 PM, bipin wrote: >> > >> > > Dear All, >> > > >> > > I am giving interesting facts giving as under published by Art of >> Living >> > > Foundations. Please read it carefully. It clear assessment of present >> > govt. >> > > >> > > >> > > A) Is this Government really protecting us??!! >> > > >> > > 7/11 2006: Mumbai Train Blasts. 209 Killed. >> > > 25/8 2007: Hyderbad Blasts: 42 Killed >> > > Oct 11 2007: Ajmer Blasts : 2 Killed >> > > May 13 2008: Jaipur Blasts : 68 Killed >> > > July 16th 2008: Ahmedabad Blasts : 57 Killed >> > > July 25th 2008: Banglaore Blasts: 1 killed >> > > Sept 13th 2008: Delhi Blasts: 26 Killed >> > > Sept 27th 2008: Delhi Blasts: 2 Killed >> > > Sept 29th 2008 : Gujrat Blasts : 1 killed >> > > Oct 21st 2008: Imphal Blasts : 17 Killed >> > > Oct 30th 2008: Assam Blasts : 40 Killed >> > > Nov 26th 2008: Mumbai Attack: 180 killed >> > > >> > > Every major city in India has been attacked consistently over the last >> > > two years. >> > > Since 2004, 3850 Indians have died in Terror attacks in over 3000 >> > > incidents. >> > > Is the common Indian on the streets really safe ? >> > > >> > > Did you know that on the day of the Mumbai train blasts, the >> > > Government gave Rs 150 crores for earthquake relief in Pakistan ? Last >> > > year our Govt. has given Rs 3000 crores (600 Million Dollars) to >> > > Afghanistan? This, when victims of terror in India have not yet got >> > > aid? What's going on? >> > > >> > > B) Is this Government really secular ? >> > > >> > > 1) When Madrasas are being shut down in Pakistan, the Indian >> > > Government is giving them CBSE status !! It is depriving Muslim >> > > children in getting secular education. A Madrasa educated person can >> > > get a job in any government office without going through the secular >> > > education system. Can India afford to have fundamentalists in >> > > government departments? Why cannot the government shut down Madrassas >> > > and let Muslim children study with the rest? >> > > >> > > 2) Our Government has given 25 lakh scholarships ONLY to minority >> > students. >> > > What sin have the majority done not to deserve these? >> > > Why cannot poor students of all communities be given scholarships >> > > instead of only Muslim children? >> > > >> > > 3) Thanks to the Congress led Government, out of 36000 temples in >> > > Andhra Pradesh, 28000 have closed down in the last five years. Do you >> > > want the same trend to continue in other parts of the country? Do you >> > > want a Nagaland type of situation in the whole of India? While >> > > government controls most of the Hindu temples, the minority community >> > > has had full freedom to organize their religious bodies. The minority >> > > communities now have the first right over resources. Is this not a >> > > blatant violation of fundamental rights of the majority community? >> > > >> > > 4) Why have the minorities in Nagaland, Mizoram & Kashmir not got the >> > > similar privileges like the minorities in other states? Why is the >> > > Govt following different rules for different religions? >> > > >> > > C) Is this government really making friends or enemies for India ? >> > > >> > > Thanks to a weak and visionless foreign policy, India has created >> > > enemies all around. By the Home Minister's own admission : "India is >> > > surrounded by a circle of fire". Rajiv Gandhi's vision of a powerful >> > > "SAARC" is now defunct. >> > > >> > > 1) Today, India commands little respect from all its neighbours, >> > > despite being the largest democracy in the world. >> > > 2) Terrorism has engulfed the country from inside and outside. Of >> > > course Pakistan,the motherland of international terrorism continues to >> > > be a big threat. >> > > 3) China has territorial ambitions on India. >> > > 4) Nepal, is now being headed by a Maoist government and is >> > > ideologically more aligned to China. While India helped to dismantle >> > > the dynastic rule in Nepal our own Government surreptitiously supports >> > > dynastic rule within its own party. >> > > 5) Myanmar is increasingly aligning with Chinese forces with huge >> > > Chinese investments in that region. >> > > 6) Failure of Indian Policies in Srilanka. >> > > 7) Bangladesh continues to repeatedly aid and abet terrorism. >> > > >> > > D) Is this Government really pro-poor? >> > > >> > > The number of people living below the poverty line has increased by a >> > > horrifying 20 per cent. India had some 270 million people below the >> > > poverty line in 2004-2005, when the present Government took office. >> > > That number has gone up to 325 million, an increse by 55 million, or >> 20 >> > per >> > > cent! >> > > >> > > E) Does this Government really care about the nation? >> > > >> > > The Pakistani flag is now being hoisted in five districts of states >> > > like Assam where the Muslim population has gone up significantly. >> > > 92000 Hindu and 6000 Christians are now languishing in refugee camps. >> > > The government has turned a blind eye to this. >> > > >> > > In the name of security, innocent people have been put in jails, >> > > whereas people like Yaasin Malik who has 23 murder charges on him, are >> > > moving Scot free and gathering their own strength. Is it acceptable to >> > > any patriotic Indian? >> > > >> > > Can the Congress led UPA promise a non-muslim CM in J&K ? Reservation >> > > for a Hindu student in Nagaland ? If so, we wholeheartedly support >> > > them. Otherwise they should sit at home the next few years and rethink >> > > their policies. >> > > >> > > Can our politicians stop stooping down to any lengths just for money >> > > and power ? Like Mr.Sharad Pawar, who first ditched the Congress and >> > > then ditched the people and aligned back with the Congress, just to be >> > > in power and almost all the so called secular parties does the same >> > thing. >> > > >> > > Don't be deceived. What appears to be communal is not communal, and >> > > what appears to be secular is not secular. It is time we change our >> > > thinking. >> > > >> > > Having said all this even BJP has not proved to be any better. >> > > But for now we need a change. Let us choose the lesser of the two >> evils. >> > > The same party brought to power again and again means encouraging >> > > unabated corruption. >> > > >> > > Stand up for this most tolerant and ancient civilization and prevent >> > > this great nation from becoming a communal battleground. As citizens >> > > of India we must vote for change. >> > > >> > > WAKE UP INDIANS. LET US VOTE FOR CHANGE. >> > > >> > > >> > > -- >> > > Dinesh Ghodke >> > > Director, WAYE >> > > World Alliance for Youth Empowerment >> > > The Art of Living Foundation >> > > Blog - www.bawandinesh.name >> > > _________________________________________ >> > > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. >> > > Critiques & Collaborations >> > > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with >> > > subscribe in the subject header. >> > > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list >> > > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> >> > _________________________________________ >> > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. >> > Critiques & Collaborations >> > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with >> > subscribe in the subject header. >> > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list >> > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> >> _________________________________________ >> reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. >> Critiques & Collaborations >> To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with >> subscribe in the subject header. >> To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list >> List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> >> > > From 2tahamehmood at googlemail.com Fri Apr 10 23:28:29 2009 From: 2tahamehmood at googlemail.com (Taha Mehmood) Date: Fri, 10 Apr 2009 18:58:29 +0100 Subject: [Reader-list] Seize the moment In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <49DF88C5.80008@gmail.com> Dear Sandeep Could you please elaborate on your, 'bit soft but ok', remark, in a sense that, what do you mean by it? More specifically I would be interested in knowing your views on the word 'soft'. For in the last five years when Congress was in power, the word 'soft' was used on many occasions by the likes of BJP to provide a general description of the ruling dispensation. This is diametrically opposite to a view which conjures up when we say-'hard', a word, which many in BJP would like to associate. This word resonates even in the speeches of the RSS. For instance, I was particularly appalled to hear the speech of Mohan Bagwat, the newly selected RSS boss, wherein on numerous occasions he uses Sanskritized words which could be roughly translated to the word 'hard', to describe the tasks which RSS has to do, the decisions which RSS has to take and so on. ( you may access this speech on the RSS website- http://www.rss.org/ ). This speech was given on the occasion of Sarsanghchalak Pranam on the evening of 21st March in Nagpur. I was deeply shocked to hear RSS boss, Bhagwat, utter a blatant lie, which was completely unconstitutional that, 'India is a Hindu Rashtra'. For him, and unfortunately for many others who are charmed by RSS's ideology, a view that India must only belong to adherents of one particular religion is a 'hard' fact. with warm regards Taha From kmvenuannur at gmail.com Sat Apr 11 01:58:22 2009 From: kmvenuannur at gmail.com (Venugopalan K M) Date: Sat, 11 Apr 2009 01:58:22 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Fwd: An appeal on the eve of Forthcoming elections. In-Reply-To: <1f9180970904101325t7566e4c4vcb788728efaf42fe@mail.gmail.com> References: <61164a90904100243pdca0e3cl2608477c0f7bdccd@mail.gmail.com> <341380d00904100405k71bacf91n9f0ca4c60dca2539@mail.gmail.com> <1f9180970904101325t7566e4c4vcb788728efaf42fe@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <1f9180970904101328i7f11747dg17718ea0760b1fd9@mail.gmail.com> Dear Anupam, Time seems to be too precious a stuff for this kind of extravaganza.. Certainly ,you cannot make awake someone  pretending sleep , though you might find it worth trying   with a person really lost in sleep! Regards, Venu. On Fri, Apr 10, 2009 at 4:35 PM, anupam chakravartty wrote: > > Dear Rajen, > > It is unfortunate that your opinions sound like Narendra Modi's recent > speech clearly representing the BJP opinion. Kindly do not forward such > propaganda in this list trying to manufacture consent among the reader's by > turning a blind eye toward right wing violence and their project of > destablising india. > > -anupam > > > On 4/10/09, Rajen Uppinangadi wrote: > > > > Dear Sir, > >    that you should use the forum like sarai and its reader-list to white > > wash one political party and try to tarnish image of another politcal party > > is beyond explanation, may be except that it is your freedom of expression, > > to say the least. > > > > The reasons for this observation are that the list is useful to the > > society with international membership from different corners of the world, > > and you are whitewashing one party whatever remains of it in skeletal form > > after 1947 in free India. The most corrupt governance of the party is well > > known to the world as Olof Palme of Sweden had to pay the price after the > > bofors deal for facilitation of bribes. ! > > > > As to Indian National Congress founded by Allan J Hume 1889 for > > facilitating > > good governance in british India for the natives, it has history of splits > > and divisions and this even before the freedom struggle resulted in free > > India. In 1939, Jinna who got elected as president felt that his community > > was being treated unfairly and split to form All India muslim league, ,in > > 1942, though the delegates elected Netaji Subhash as president, Gandhiji > > overlooked this, over-ruled to put Nehru as president, who most of his > > tenure spent time in guest houses like the present day lalu, when arrested, > > moreover Nehru was never detained in any jail, but only in guest > > houses.Many > > thousands of citizens in british India sacrificed in the freedom struggle > > and today the skeletal remains of Indian National Congress has not even one > > genuine freedom fighter in it , as anybody can see it has only slohgan > > shouting brigades and goons like Jagadeesh tytler, Sajan Kumar Tak, > > Kamalnath, HKL Bhagath( now dead) who led the mobs in massacre of 1984. > > Even > > after 25 years, not even chargesheet is filed against a single individual > > for this massacre where every hour saw the brutal killing, burning of > > innocents on the streets of Delhi.Brilliant lawyers have been made MPs for > > their excellent defence of the criminals like these, and they are the > > spokes > > person for the nearly dead party. India, free India can never forgive and > > forget the role of Indian national Congress in fomenting communal riots and > > later rewarding the riot leaders with MP and MLA tikets for their brutal > > behaviour. As to the splits and divisions, even after free India and the > > rule of Congress, 1969 saw the complete take over of this party by dynasty > > of Nehru, the Indira Priyadarshini who did not hesitate to leave her > > husband > > to die lonely death for power. Feroz Shah Khan was the lone voice that > > challenged Nehru on the then infamous Mundra Insurance scam, TT > > Krishnamachari, then finance minister carried the cross for nehru, that is > > another matter. With so many splits and divisions and all the tall leaders > > getting thrown out of the party, history was re written with Nehru as > > central figure for the freedom and development, when this debauch leader > > was > > busy with hs adventures, and media was not bullish as it is now to have the > > stings and coverage of Nehru and his escapades.! > > > > Bofors scandal and its subsequent law taking its own course saw the corrupt > > side of judciary and the lawyers who were promoted, for delaying the due > > process of law, autonomous institutions like CBI became poodles instead of > > being the hounds to investigate.Emergency and subsequent crawling media and > > judiciary saw the ation in disgust as but for one Justice Khanna, the > > judiciary would have been the chamchas of the INC.Later citizens have seen > > the law taking its own course, with judges playing with their dates of > > births, fudging with reports of judicial commissions and when the political > > parties say, law will take its course, they mean, they will allow the law > > to > > take a course that is convenient to them as seen by the citizens in bofors > > scam, fodder scam and subsequent evens where no single party can claim > > higher moral ground. > > > > So, please let the citizens decide whom they want to vote with their > > intellect, as they have choice of murderers, dacoits and pickpockets to > > choose from.? > > > > As to honesty of the prime minister, nation and its citizen have seen the > > role of corruption, money power and votes of convicts, murderers brought > > out > > of jails to vote for the deal, dishonestly tainting the N-deal.? > > _________________________________________ > > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > > Critiques & Collaborations > > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > > subscribe in the subject header. > > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with subscribe in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> -- http://venukm.blogspot.com/ -- http://venukm.blogspot.com/ From kmvenuannur at gmail.com Sat Apr 11 02:34:43 2009 From: kmvenuannur at gmail.com (Venugopalan K M) Date: Sat, 11 Apr 2009 02:34:43 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] An Appeal on the eve of Forthcoming Elections...available options..??... In-Reply-To: References: <1f9180970904070536m4f640ba9lb00a129ecd427838@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <1f9180970904101404o614ec7adtf7195aa1f291b98a@mail.gmail.com>    ps: this is not to belittle the tragedy of continued communal disharmony in the country LA I like to agree with your post script, even when you don't (I believe you don't; excuse me). You didn't either endorse or refute points raised in the original post. Raising such counterquestions about the anti Sikh pogrom in 1984 by the Congress and such factuals like the Nandigram violence on people by the CPI(M) headed govt in WB is ok by me; nevertheless, those will not suffice especially when you mix these with those items in the Hate Formula of the number one communal party, that is BJP. Let me ask you what is wrong in someone saying that he is an Islamist? How does it become "self confession" and how does it look like confession of some crime? (I guess "self confession" must be some expression added from your hate lexican, where (ordinary) confession might mean that extracted by coercion or the like!) Regards, Venu. > > > --------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > >> Date: Tue, 7 Apr 2009 18:06:11 +0530 >> From: kmvenuannur at gmail.com >> To: reader-list at sarai.net >> Subject: Re: [Reader-list] An Appeal on the eve of Forthcoming Elections >> >> I like to endorse this appeal in letter and spirit. >> Thanks, >> Venu. >> >> On Tue, Apr 7, 2009 at 2:38 PM, M Javed wrote: >> > An Appeal on the eve of Forthcoming Elections >> > >> > In recent months and years, we have seen the true face of the BJP and >> > Shiv Sena. >> > First, the nation was shocked to discover that a whole string of >> > terrorist >> > attacks, some of which had previously been attributed to jihadi groups, >> > had been >> > committed by Hindutva terrorists. This came to light during >> > investigations into >> > the Malegaon blast of September 2008 led by ATS Chief Hemant Karkare. >> > The >> > perpetrators included Hindu religious figures like Sadhvi Pragyasingh >> > Thakur and >> > Dayanand Pandey, retired military officers, and serving military officer >> > Lt.Col. >> > Srikant Purohit. Instead of denouncing the culprits and demanding that >> > they >> > should be punished, BJP and Shiv Sena leaders launched a hate campaign >> > against >> > the brave and honest police officer who was carrying out the >> > investigations, >> > Hemant Karkare! >> > >> > Then there were the attacks on Christians in Kandhamal and Karnataka. >> > The >> > attacks in Kandhamal in particular went on for months, and even today >> > the >> > communities who have been ethnically cleansed have not been able to go >> > back. >> > This would not have been possible without collusion from the state >> > governments: >> > a BJP ally in one case, the BJP itself in the other. In Karnataka, this >> > was >> > followed by brutal attacks on young women which shocked the nation when >> > they >> > were caught on camera. They were carried out by the same Sri Ram Sene >> > which had >> > attacked churches and Christians, and in one case resulted in the >> > suicide of a >> > young girl. These people have correctly been described as ‘the Taliban >> > of >> > India,’ due to their violent efforts to enforce their intolerant and >> > narrow-minded version of a religion and culture. As usual, the BJP spoke >> > in two >> > tongues about these attacks. But actions speak louder than words. The >> > fact that >> > such attacks could take place in a BJP-ruled >> > state without any action being taken against the criminals showed that >> > the >> > party was hand-in-glove with them. >> > >> > The latest scandal is the hate speech of Varun Gandhi. It is clear for >> > anyone >> > who has brains that he actually spoke the words on the tape, and is only >> > claiming that they were doctored so that he can get away with his >> > criminal >> > words, knowing that legal action against him cannot be completed before >> > the >> > elections. Maneka Gandhi made a shameless attempt to start a communal >> > riot by >> > alleging that a Muslim police officer was responsible for the firing >> > when he was >> > not even present, and alleged ‘genocide’ when not a single person >> > was >> > killed! It just shows that Varun learned his communalism as well as his >> > habit of >> > lying from his mother. Again, the BJP has supported him. Why should we >> > be >> > surprised? Their Prime Ministerial candidate, L.K.Advani, used the same >> > kind of >> > language in the build-up to the demolition of the Babri Masjid in 1992 >> > and the >> > horrific anti-Muslim massacres which followed. Narendra Modi, who is >> > widely seen >> > as the BJP’s future Prime >> > Ministerial candidate, used the same language to whip up hatred against >> > Muslims >> > after the Godhra tragedy in 2002, resulting in the shameful mass rapes >> > and >> > murders that followed in Gujarat. >> > >> > The BJP’s method of ‘fighting terrorism’ is well illustrated in >> > Chhattisgarh. In the name of fighting Maoist terrorists, the BJP state >> > government there has set up an illegal paramilitary organisation, Salwa >> > Judum, >> > which is engaged in raping and killing innocent women, men and children, >> > burning >> > their houses, evicting them from their villages, and putting them into >> > prison >> > camps where they are deprived of their freedom. The state government has >> > put >> > Binayak Sen, a doctor who has dedicated his life to providing health >> > care to >> > poor people, in jail for almost two years, simply because he protested >> > against >> > this brutal treatment of the villagers. In the name of fighting >> > terrorism, the >> > state itself is engaged in terrorism! >> > >> > The BJP aims to divide the country, and thus to destroy it. They have no >> > positive programme to offer: only hatred and violence. >> > >> > We are very lucky they were not in power when the terrorist attacks on >> > Mumbai >> > took place on 26 November last year. What would their reponse have been? >> > In the >> > name of being ‘tough on terror,’ they would have bombed Pakistan. By >> > now we >> > would have been in the middle of a war. The economy would have >> > collapsed, and >> > security would have fallen drastically, as Pakistani terrorist groups >> > targeted >> > India even more. In India, money for employment programmes, >> > infrastructure, >> > health care, education and welfare, which ought to be increased, would >> > have >> > fallen still further as more funds were put into the military effort. >> > Worst of >> > all, the civilian government in Pakistan might have fallen, giving way >> > to >> > extremist groups, and a nuclear exchange between India and Pakistan >> > would be on >> > the cards, destroying millions of lives of both sides of the border. >> > >> > We simply cannot afford to have such a party in power in our country: >> > one which >> > stands for Talibanisation, intolerance, divisiveness, militarism and >> > war. >> > Therefore we must make sure they do not come to power in the up-coming >> > elections. >> > >> > We appeal to all the citizens that we must defeat the communal forces, >> > BJP and it allies. >> > >> > All India Secular Forum >> > >> > (sent by Ram Punyani) >> > _________________________________________ >> > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. >> > Critiques & Collaborations >> > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with >> > subscribe in the subject header. >> > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list >> > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> >> >> >> >> -- >> http://venukm.blogspot.com/ >> _________________________________________ >> reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. >> Critiques & Collaborations >> To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with >> subscribe in the subject header. >> To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list >> List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> > > ________________________________ > Windows Live Messenger. Multitasking at its finest. -- http://venukm.blogspot.com/ From kmvenuannur at gmail.com Sat Apr 11 03:16:48 2009 From: kmvenuannur at gmail.com (Venugopalan K M) Date: Sat, 11 Apr 2009 03:16:48 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] interesting facts In-Reply-To: <002601c9b9c7$0755e530$0201a8c0@limo> References: <002601c9b9c7$0755e530$0201a8c0@limo> Message-ID: <1f9180970904101446j652b76f0h39ca2a5c0cd0d562@mail.gmail.com> Interesting indeed, especially when compiled by some one from the "Art of Living"!! (Art of Being Silent, Art of Being Ignorant, Art of Being Selective , Art of Silently Propagating Hate.. like a cat walks in and drinks the milk!..and yet talking ,speaking and preaching love and peace!) Why else don't you ask to compile the figures of those 2000 odd innocent people killed in cold blood by Narendra Modi & Co in Gujarat, following a tragedy in which a coach or two of the Subarmati Express caught fire and scores of people died? Why don't you ask to compile the figures of people killed as a result of the hate campaign by Advani in the 1990s for demolishing the Babari Masjid disguised as campaign for building a Ram temple in Ayodhya? Why don't you ask the "Art of Living" hate speakers not to keep silence about people's right to live in peace in Khandmahal, Orissa and elsewhere? Why silence about the impunity with which dalits are killed, dalit women and women of minority communities are raped everywhere in India? On Fri, Apr 10, 2009 at 3:58 PM, bipin wrote: > Dear All, > > I am giving interesting facts giving as under published by Art of Living Foundations. Please read it carefully. It clear assessment of present govt. > > > A) Is this Government really protecting us??!! > > 7/11 2006: Mumbai Train Blasts. 209 Killed. > 25/8 2007: Hyderbad Blasts: 42 Killed > Oct 11 2007: Ajmer Blasts : 2 Killed > May 13 2008: Jaipur Blasts : 68 Killed > July 16th 2008: Ahmedabad Blasts : 57 Killed > July 25th 2008: Banglaore Blasts: 1 killed > Sept 13th 2008: Delhi Blasts: 26 Killed > Sept 27th 2008: Delhi Blasts: 2 Killed > Sept 29th 2008 : Gujrat Blasts : 1 killed > Oct 21st 2008: Imphal Blasts : 17 Killed > Oct 30th 2008: Assam Blasts : 40 Killed > Nov 26th 2008: Mumbai Attack: 180 killed > > Every major city in India has been attacked consistently over the last > two years. > Since 2004, 3850 Indians have died in Terror attacks in over 3000 incidents. > Is the common Indian on the streets really safe ? > > Did you know that on the day of the Mumbai train blasts, the > Government gave Rs 150 crores for earthquake relief in Pakistan ? Last > year our Govt. has given Rs 3000 crores (600 Million Dollars) to > Afghanistan? This, when victims of terror in India have not yet got > aid? What's going on? > > B) Is this Government really secular ? > > 1) When Madrasas are being shut down in Pakistan, the Indian > Government is giving them CBSE status !! It is depriving Muslim > children in getting secular education. A Madrasa educated person can > get a job in any government office without going through the secular > education system. Can India afford to have fundamentalists in > government departments? Why cannot the government shut down Madrassas > and let Muslim children study with the rest? > > 2) Our Government has given 25 lakh scholarships ONLY to minority students. > What sin have the majority done not to deserve these? > Why cannot poor students of all communities be given scholarships > instead of only Muslim children? > > 3) Thanks to the Congress led Government, out of 36000 temples in > Andhra Pradesh, 28000 have closed down in the last five years. Do you > want the same trend to continue in other parts of the country? Do you > want a Nagaland type of situation in the whole of India? While > government controls most of the Hindu temples, the minority community > has had full freedom to organize their religious bodies. The minority > communities now have the first right over resources. Is this not a > blatant violation of fundamental rights of the majority community? > > 4) Why have the minorities in Nagaland, Mizoram & Kashmir not got the > similar privileges like the minorities in other states? Why is the > Govt following different rules for different religions? > > C) Is this government really making friends or enemies for India ? > > Thanks to a weak and visionless foreign policy, India has created > enemies all around. By the Home Minister's own admission : "India is > surrounded by a circle of fire". Rajiv Gandhi's vision of a powerful > "SAARC" is now defunct. > > 1) Today, India commands little respect from all its neighbours, > despite being the largest democracy in the world. > 2) Terrorism has engulfed the country from inside and outside. Of > course Pakistan,the motherland of international terrorism continues to > be a big threat. > 3) China has territorial ambitions on India. > 4) Nepal, is now being headed by a Maoist government and is > ideologically more aligned to China. While India helped to dismantle > the dynastic rule in Nepal our own Government surreptitiously supports > dynastic rule within its own party. > 5) Myanmar is increasingly aligning with Chinese forces with huge > Chinese investments in that region. > 6) Failure of Indian Policies in Srilanka. > 7) Bangladesh continues to repeatedly aid and abet terrorism. > > D) Is this Government really pro-poor? > > The number of people living below the poverty line has increased by a > horrifying 20 per cent. India had some 270 million people below the > poverty line in 2004-2005, when the present Government took office. > That number has gone up to 325 million, an increse by 55 million, or 20 per cent! > > E) Does this Government really care about the nation? > > The Pakistani flag is now being hoisted in five districts of states > like Assam where the Muslim population has gone up significantly. > 92000 Hindu and 6000 Christians are now languishing in refugee camps. > The government has turned a blind eye to this. > > In the name of security, innocent people have been put in jails, > whereas people like Yaasin Malik who has 23 murder charges on him, are > moving Scot free and gathering their own strength. Is it acceptable to > any patriotic Indian? > > Can the Congress led UPA promise a non-muslim CM in J&K ? Reservation > for a Hindu student in Nagaland ? If so, we wholeheartedly support > them. Otherwise they should sit at home the next few years and rethink > their policies. > > Can our politicians stop stooping down to any lengths just for money > and power ? Like Mr.Sharad Pawar, who first ditched the Congress and > then ditched the people and aligned back with the Congress, just to be > in power and almost all the so called secular parties does the same thing. > > Don't be deceived. What appears to be communal is not communal, and > what appears to be secular is not secular. It is time we change our > thinking. > > Having said all this even BJP has not proved to be any better. > But for now we need a change. Let us choose the lesser of the two evils. > The same party brought to power again and again means encouraging > unabated corruption. > > Stand up for this most tolerant and ancient civilization and prevent > this great nation from becoming a communal battleground. As citizens > of India we must vote for change. > > WAKE UP INDIANS. LET US VOTE FOR CHANGE. > > > -- > Dinesh Ghodke > Director, WAYE > World Alliance for Youth Empowerment > The Art of Living Foundation > Blog - www.bawandinesh.name > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with subscribe in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> -- http://venukm.blogspot.com/ From kmvenuannur at gmail.com Sat Apr 11 03:19:21 2009 From: kmvenuannur at gmail.com (Venugopalan K M) Date: Sat, 11 Apr 2009 03:19:21 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] interesting facts In-Reply-To: <002601c9b9c7$0755e530$0201a8c0@limo> References: <002601c9b9c7$0755e530$0201a8c0@limo> Message-ID: <1f9180970904101449g3b03af45ud19e164582144d22@mail.gmail.com> Interesting indeed, especially when compiled by some one from the "Art of Living"!! (Art of Being Silent, Art of Being Ignorant, Art of Being Selective , Art of Silently Propagating Hate.. like a cat walks in and drinks the milk!..and yet talking ,speaking and preaching love and peace!) Why else don't  you ask to compile the figures of those 2000 odd innocent people killed in cold blood by Narendra Modi & Co in Gujarat, following a tragedy in which a coach or two of the Subarmati Express caught fire and scores of people died? Why don't you ask to compile the figures of people killed as a result of the hate campaign by Advani in the 1990s for demolishing the Babari Masjid disguised as campaign for building a Ram temple in Ayodhya? Why don't you ask the "Art of Living" hate speakers not to keep silence about people's right to live in peace in Khandmahal, Orissa and elsewhere? Why silence about the impunity with which  dalits are  killed, dalit women and women of minority communities are raped everywhere in India? Regards, Venu. On Fri, Apr 10, 2009 at 3:58 PM, bipin wrote: > Dear All, > > I am giving interesting facts giving as under published by Art of Living Foundations. Please read it carefully. It clear assessment of present govt. > > > A) Is this Government really protecting us??!! > > 7/11 2006: Mumbai Train Blasts. 209 Killed. > 25/8 2007: Hyderbad Blasts: 42 Killed > Oct 11 2007: Ajmer Blasts : 2 Killed > May 13 2008: Jaipur Blasts : 68 Killed > July 16th 2008: Ahmedabad Blasts : 57 Killed > July 25th 2008: Banglaore Blasts: 1 killed > Sept 13th 2008: Delhi Blasts: 26 Killed > Sept 27th 2008: Delhi Blasts: 2 Killed > Sept 29th 2008 : Gujrat Blasts : 1 killed > Oct 21st 2008: Imphal Blasts : 17 Killed > Oct 30th 2008: Assam Blasts : 40 Killed > Nov 26th 2008: Mumbai Attack: 180 killed > > Every major city in India has been attacked consistently over the last > two years. > Since 2004, 3850 Indians have died in Terror attacks in over 3000 incidents. > Is the common Indian on the streets really safe ? > > Did you know that on the day of the Mumbai train blasts, the > Government gave Rs 150 crores for earthquake relief in Pakistan ? Last > year our Govt. has given Rs 3000 crores (600 Million Dollars) to > Afghanistan? This, when victims of terror in India have not yet got > aid? What's going on? > > B) Is this Government really secular ? > > 1) When Madrasas are being shut down in Pakistan, the Indian > Government is giving them CBSE status !! It is depriving Muslim > children in getting secular education. A Madrasa educated person can > get a job in any government office without going through the secular > education system. Can India afford to have fundamentalists in > government departments? Why cannot the government shut down Madrassas > and let Muslim children study with the rest? > > 2) Our Government has given 25 lakh scholarships ONLY to minority students. > What sin have the majority done not to deserve these? > Why cannot poor students of all communities be given scholarships > instead of only Muslim children? > > 3) Thanks to the Congress led Government, out of 36000 temples in > Andhra Pradesh, 28000 have closed down in the last five years. Do you > want the same trend to continue in other parts of the country? Do you > want a Nagaland type of situation in the whole of India? While > government controls most of the Hindu temples, the minority community > has had full freedom to organize their religious bodies. The minority > communities now have the first right over resources. Is this not a > blatant violation of fundamental rights of the majority community? > > 4) Why have the minorities in Nagaland, Mizoram & Kashmir not got the > similar privileges like the minorities in other states? Why is the > Govt following different rules for different religions? > > C) Is this government really making friends or enemies for India ? > > Thanks to a weak and visionless foreign policy, India has created > enemies all around. By the Home Minister's own admission : "India is > surrounded by a circle of fire". Rajiv Gandhi's vision of a powerful > "SAARC" is now defunct. > > 1) Today, India commands little respect from all its neighbours, > despite being the largest democracy in the world. > 2) Terrorism has engulfed the country from inside and outside. Of > course Pakistan,the motherland of international terrorism continues to > be a big threat. > 3) China has territorial ambitions on India. > 4) Nepal, is now being headed by a Maoist government and is > ideologically more aligned to China. While India helped to dismantle > the dynastic rule in Nepal our own Government surreptitiously supports > dynastic rule within its own party. > 5) Myanmar is increasingly aligning with Chinese forces with huge > Chinese investments in that region. > 6) Failure of Indian Policies in Srilanka. > 7) Bangladesh continues to repeatedly aid and abet terrorism. > > D) Is this Government really pro-poor? > > The number of people living below the poverty line has increased by a > horrifying 20 per cent. India had some 270 million people below the > poverty line in 2004-2005, when the present Government took office. > That number has gone up to 325 million, an increse by 55 million, or 20 per cent! > > E) Does this Government really care about the nation? > > The Pakistani flag is now being hoisted in five districts of states > like Assam where the Muslim population has gone up significantly. > 92000 Hindu and 6000 Christians are now languishing in refugee camps. > The government has turned a blind eye to this. > > In the name of security, innocent people have been put in jails, > whereas people like Yaasin Malik who has 23 murder charges on him, are > moving Scot free and gathering their own strength. Is it acceptable to > any patriotic Indian? > > Can the Congress led UPA promise a non-muslim CM in J&K ? Reservation > for a Hindu student in Nagaland ? If so, we wholeheartedly support > them. Otherwise they should sit at home the next few years and rethink > their policies. > > Can our politicians stop stooping down to any lengths just for money > and power ? Like Mr.Sharad Pawar, who first ditched the Congress and > then ditched the people and aligned back with the Congress, just to be > in power and almost all the so called secular parties does the same thing. > > Don't be deceived. What appears to be communal is not communal, and > what appears to be secular is not secular. It is time we change our > thinking. > > Having said all this even BJP has not proved to be any better. > But for now we need a change. Let us choose the lesser of the two evils. > The same party brought to power again and again means encouraging > unabated corruption. > > Stand up for this most tolerant and ancient civilization and prevent > this great nation from becoming a communal battleground. As citizens > of India we must vote for change. > > WAKE UP INDIANS. LET US VOTE FOR CHANGE. > > > -- > Dinesh Ghodke > Director, WAYE > World Alliance for Youth Empowerment > The Art of Living Foundation > Blog - www.bawandinesh.name > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with subscribe in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> -- http://venukm.blogspot.com/ From kmvenuannur at gmail.com Sat Apr 11 03:22:23 2009 From: kmvenuannur at gmail.com (Venugopalan K M) Date: Sat, 11 Apr 2009 03:22:23 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] interesting facts In-Reply-To: <002601c9b9c7$0755e530$0201a8c0@limo> References: <002601c9b9c7$0755e530$0201a8c0@limo> Message-ID: <1f9180970904101452tdd7fb0esff99752b333a1dae@mail.gmail.com> Interesting indeed, especially when compiled by some one from the "Art of Living"!! (Art of Being Silent, Art of Being Ignorant, Art of Being Selective , Art of Silently Propagating Hate.. like a cat walks in and drinks the milk!..and yet talking ,speaking and preaching love and peace!) Why else don't  you ask to compile the figures of those 2000 odd innocent people killed in cold blood by Narendra Modi & Co in Gujarat, following a tragedy in which a coach or two of the Subarmati Express caught fire and scores of people died? Why don't you ask to compile the figures of people killed as a result of the hate campaign by Advani in the 1990s for demolishing the Babari Masjid disguised as campaign for building a Ram temple in Ayodhya? Why don't you ask the "Art of Living" hate speakers not to keep silence about people's right to live in peace in Khandmahal, Orissa and elsewhere? Why silence about the impunity with which  dalits are  killed, dalit women and women of minority communities are raped everywhere in India? Regards, Venu. On Fri, Apr 10, 2009 at 3:58 PM, bipin wrote: > Dear All, > > I am giving interesting facts giving as under published by Art of Living Foundations. Please read it carefully. It clear assessment of present govt. > > > A) Is this Government really protecting us??!! > > 7/11 2006: Mumbai Train Blasts. 209 Killed. > 25/8 2007: Hyderbad Blasts: 42 Killed > Oct 11 2007: Ajmer Blasts : 2 Killed > May 13 2008: Jaipur Blasts : 68 Killed > July 16th 2008: Ahmedabad Blasts : 57 Killed > July 25th 2008: Banglaore Blasts: 1 killed > Sept 13th 2008: Delhi Blasts: 26 Killed > Sept 27th 2008: Delhi Blasts: 2 Killed > Sept 29th 2008 : Gujrat Blasts : 1 killed > Oct 21st 2008: Imphal Blasts : 17 Killed > Oct 30th 2008: Assam Blasts : 40 Killed > Nov 26th 2008: Mumbai Attack: 180 killed > > Every major city in India has been attacked consistently over the last > two years. > Since 2004, 3850 Indians have died in Terror attacks in over 3000 incidents. > Is the common Indian on the streets really safe ? > > Did you know that on the day of the Mumbai train blasts, the > Government gave Rs 150 crores for earthquake relief in Pakistan ? Last > year our Govt. has given Rs 3000 crores (600 Million Dollars) to > Afghanistan? This, when victims of terror in India have not yet got > aid? What's going on? > > B) Is this Government really secular ? > > 1) When Madrasas are being shut down in Pakistan, the Indian > Government is giving them CBSE status !! It is depriving Muslim > children in getting secular education. A Madrasa educated person can > get a job in any government office without going through the secular > education system. Can India afford to have fundamentalists in > government departments? Why cannot the government shut down Madrassas > and let Muslim children study with the rest? > > 2) Our Government has given 25 lakh scholarships ONLY to minority students. > What sin have the majority done not to deserve these? > Why cannot poor students of all communities be given scholarships > instead of only Muslim children? > > 3) Thanks to the Congress led Government, out of 36000 temples in > Andhra Pradesh, 28000 have closed down in the last five years. Do you > want the same trend to continue in other parts of the country? Do you > want a Nagaland type of situation in the whole of India? While > government controls most of the Hindu temples, the minority community > has had full freedom to organize their religious bodies. The minority > communities now have the first right over resources. Is this not a > blatant violation of fundamental rights of the majority community? > > 4) Why have the minorities in Nagaland, Mizoram & Kashmir not got the > similar privileges like the minorities in other states? Why is the > Govt following different rules for different religions? > > C) Is this government really making friends or enemies for India ? > > Thanks to a weak and visionless foreign policy, India has created > enemies all around. By the Home Minister's own admission : "India is > surrounded by a circle of fire". Rajiv Gandhi's vision of a powerful > "SAARC" is now defunct. > > 1) Today, India commands little respect from all its neighbours, > despite being the largest democracy in the world. > 2) Terrorism has engulfed the country from inside and outside. Of > course Pakistan,the motherland of international terrorism continues to > be a big threat. > 3) China has territorial ambitions on India. > 4) Nepal, is now being headed by a Maoist government and is > ideologically more aligned to China. While India helped to dismantle > the dynastic rule in Nepal our own Government surreptitiously supports > dynastic rule within its own party. > 5) Myanmar is increasingly aligning with Chinese forces with huge > Chinese investments in that region. > 6) Failure of Indian Policies in Srilanka. > 7) Bangladesh continues to repeatedly aid and abet terrorism. > > D) Is this Government really pro-poor? > > The number of people living below the poverty line has increased by a > horrifying 20 per cent. India had some 270 million people below the > poverty line in 2004-2005, when the present Government took office. > That number has gone up to 325 million, an increse by 55 million, or 20 per cent! > > E) Does this Government really care about the nation? > > The Pakistani flag is now being hoisted in five districts of states > like Assam where the Muslim population has gone up significantly. > 92000 Hindu and 6000 Christians are now languishing in refugee camps. > The government has turned a blind eye to this. > > In the name of security, innocent people have been put in jails, > whereas people like Yaasin Malik who has 23 murder charges on him, are > moving Scot free and gathering their own strength. Is it acceptable to > any patriotic Indian? > > Can the Congress led UPA promise a non-muslim CM in J&K ? Reservation > for a Hindu student in Nagaland ? If so, we wholeheartedly support > them. Otherwise they should sit at home the next few years and rethink > their policies. > > Can our politicians stop stooping down to any lengths just for money > and power ? Like Mr.Sharad Pawar, who first ditched the Congress and > then ditched the people and aligned back with the Congress, just to be > in power and almost all the so called secular parties does the same thing. > > Don't be deceived. What appears to be communal is not communal, and > what appears to be secular is not secular. It is time we change our > thinking. > > Having said all this even BJP has not proved to be any better. > But for now we need a change. Let us choose the lesser of the two evils. > The same party brought to power again and again means encouraging > unabated corruption. > > Stand up for this most tolerant and ancient civilization and prevent > this great nation from becoming a communal battleground. As citizens > of India we must vote for change. > > WAKE UP INDIANS. LET US VOTE FOR CHANGE. > > > -- > Dinesh Ghodke > Director, WAYE > World Alliance for Youth Empowerment > The Art of Living Foundation > Blog - www.bawandinesh.name > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with subscribe in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> -- http://venukm.blogspot.com/ From kmvenuannur at gmail.com Sat Apr 11 03:24:41 2009 From: kmvenuannur at gmail.com (Venugopalan K M) Date: Sat, 11 Apr 2009 03:24:41 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] interesting facts In-Reply-To: <6b79f1a70904100358y4299e1d3p715dc3aef750b469@mail.gmail.com> References: <002601c9b9c7$0755e530$0201a8c0@limo> <6b79f1a70904100358y4299e1d3p715dc3aef750b469@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <1f9180970904101454o55829d9fq44c00cf769147a80@mail.gmail.com> Interesting indeed, especially when compiled by some one from the "Art of Living"!! (Art of Being Silent, Art of Being Ignorant, Art of Being Selective , Art of Silently Propagating Hate.. like a cat walks in and drinks the milk!..and yet talking ,speaking and preaching love and peace!) Why else don't you ask to compile the figures of those 2000 odd innocent people killed in cold blood by Narendra Modi & Co in Gujarat, following a tragedy in which a coach or two of the Subarmati Express caught fire and scores of people died? Why don't you ask to compile the figures of people killed as a result of the hate campaign by Advani in the 1990s for demolishing the Babari Masjid disguised as campaign for building a Ram temple in Ayodhya? Why don't you ask the "Art of Living" hate speakers not to keep silence about people's right to live in peace in Khandmahal, Orissa and elsewhere? Why silence about the impunity with which dalits are killed, dalit women and women of minority communities are raped everywhere in India? Regards, Venu. On Fri, Apr 10, 2009 at 4:28 PM, Pawan Durani wrote: > Interesting facts....... > > On Fri, Apr 10, 2009 at 3:58 PM, bipin wrote: > >> Dear All, >> >> I am giving interesting facts giving as under published by Art of Living >> Foundations. Please read it carefully. It clear assessment of present govt. >> >> >> A) Is this Government really protecting us??!! >> >> 7/11 2006: Mumbai Train Blasts. 209 Killed. >> 25/8 2007: Hyderbad Blasts: 42 Killed >> Oct 11 2007: Ajmer Blasts : 2 Killed >> May 13 2008: Jaipur Blasts : 68 Killed >> July 16th 2008: Ahmedabad Blasts : 57 Killed >> July 25th 2008: Banglaore Blasts: 1 killed >> Sept 13th 2008: Delhi Blasts: 26 Killed >> Sept 27th 2008: Delhi Blasts: 2 Killed >> Sept 29th 2008 : Gujrat Blasts : 1 killed >> Oct 21st 2008: Imphal Blasts : 17 Killed >> Oct 30th 2008: Assam Blasts : 40 Killed >> Nov 26th 2008: Mumbai Attack: 180 killed >> >> Every major city in India has been attacked consistently over the last >> two years. >> Since 2004, 3850 Indians have died in Terror attacks in over 3000 >> incidents. >> Is the common Indian on the streets really safe ? >> >> Did you know that on the day of the Mumbai train blasts, the >> Government gave Rs 150 crores for earthquake relief in Pakistan ? Last >> year our Govt. has given Rs 3000 crores (600 Million Dollars) to >> Afghanistan? This, when victims of terror in India have not yet got >> aid? What's going on? >> >> B) Is this Government really secular ? >> >> 1) When Madrasas are being shut down in Pakistan, the Indian >> Government is giving them CBSE status !! It is depriving Muslim >> children in getting secular education. A Madrasa educated person can >> get a job in any government office without going through the secular >> education system. Can India afford to have fundamentalists in >> government departments? Why cannot the government shut down Madrassas >> and let Muslim children study with the rest? >> >> 2) Our Government has given 25 lakh scholarships ONLY to minority students. >> What sin have the majority done not to deserve these? >> Why cannot poor students of all communities be given scholarships >> instead of only Muslim children? >> >> 3) Thanks to the Congress led Government, out of 36000 temples in >> Andhra Pradesh, 28000 have closed down in the last five years. Do you >> want the same trend to continue in other parts of the country? Do you >> want a Nagaland type of situation in the whole of India? While >> government controls most of the Hindu temples, the minority community >> has had full freedom to organize their religious bodies. The minority >> communities now have the first right over resources. Is this not a >> blatant violation of fundamental rights of the majority community? >> >> 4) Why have the minorities in Nagaland, Mizoram & Kashmir not got the >> similar privileges like the minorities in other states? Why is the >> Govt following different rules for different religions? >> >> C) Is this government really making friends or enemies for India ? >> >> Thanks to a weak and visionless foreign policy, India has created >> enemies all around. By the Home Minister's own admission : "India is >> surrounded by a circle of fire". Rajiv Gandhi's vision of a powerful >> "SAARC" is now defunct. >> >> 1) Today, India commands little respect from all its neighbours, >> despite being the largest democracy in the world. >> 2) Terrorism has engulfed the country from inside and outside. Of >> course Pakistan,the motherland of international terrorism continues to >> be a big threat. >> 3) China has territorial ambitions on India. >> 4) Nepal, is now being headed by a Maoist government and is >> ideologically more aligned to China. While India helped to dismantle >> the dynastic rule in Nepal our own Government surreptitiously supports >> dynastic rule within its own party. >> 5) Myanmar is increasingly aligning with Chinese forces with huge >> Chinese investments in that region. >> 6) Failure of Indian Policies in Srilanka. >> 7) Bangladesh continues to repeatedly aid and abet terrorism. >> >> D) Is this Government really pro-poor? >> >> The number of people living below the poverty line has increased by a >> horrifying 20 per cent. India had some 270 million people below the >> poverty line in 2004-2005, when the present Government took office. >> That number has gone up to 325 million, an increse by 55 million, or 20 per >> cent! >> >> E) Does this Government really care about the nation? >> >> The Pakistani flag is now being hoisted in five districts of states >> like Assam where the Muslim population has gone up significantly. >> 92000 Hindu and 6000 Christians are now languishing in refugee camps. >> The government has turned a blind eye to this. >> >> In the name of security, innocent people have been put in jails, >> whereas people like Yaasin Malik who has 23 murder charges on him, are >> moving Scot free and gathering their own strength. Is it acceptable to >> any patriotic Indian? >> >> Can the Congress led UPA promise a non-muslim CM in J&K ? Reservation >> for a Hindu student in Nagaland ? If so, we wholeheartedly support >> them. Otherwise they should sit at home the next few years and rethink >> their policies. >> >> Can our politicians stop stooping down to any lengths just for money >> and power ? Like Mr.Sharad Pawar, who first ditched the Congress and >> then ditched the people and aligned back with the Congress, just to be >> in power and almost all the so called secular parties does the same thing. >> >> Don't be deceived. What appears to be communal is not communal, and >> what appears to be secular is not secular. It is time we change our >> thinking. >> >> Having said all this even BJP has not proved to be any better. >> But for now we need a change. Let us choose the lesser of the two evils. >> The same party brought to power again and again means encouraging >> unabated corruption. >> >> Stand up for this most tolerant and ancient civilization and prevent >> this great nation from becoming a communal battleground. As citizens >> of India we must vote for change. >> >> WAKE UP INDIANS. LET US VOTE FOR CHANGE. >> >> >> -- >> Dinesh Ghodke >> Director, WAYE >> World Alliance for Youth Empowerment >> The Art of Living Foundation >> Blog - www.bawandinesh.name >> _________________________________________ >> reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. >> Critiques & Collaborations >> To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with >> subscribe in the subject header. >> To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list >> List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with subscribe in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> -- http://venukm.blogspot.com/ From kmvenuannur at gmail.com Sat Apr 11 03:55:26 2009 From: kmvenuannur at gmail.com (Venugopalan K M) Date: Sat, 11 Apr 2009 03:55:26 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Genocide 1984: Long Search For Culprits By Shamsul Islam (Countercurrents.org) Message-ID: <1f9180970904101525i10a61a64w5aac05253dc35638@mail.gmail.com> Genocide 1984: Long Search For Culprits By Shamsul Islam 10 April, 2009 Countercurrents.org It is generally believed that the Congress cadres were behind this genocide. This is true but there were other forces too which actively participated in this massacre and whose role has never been investigated. Those who were witness to the genocide of 1984 were stunned by the swiftness and military precision of the killer marauding gangs (later on witnessed during the Babri mosque demolition, burning alive of Dr. Graham Steins with his two sons and recent pogrom of the Muslims in Gujarat) who went on a burning spree of the innocent Sikhs. This was beyond the capacity of the Congress thugs. I have an important RSS document which may throw some light on the unhidden aspects of the genocide. It was authored and circulated by a veteran ideologue of the RSS, Nana Deshmukh on November 8, 1984. Interestingly, this document was published in the Hindi Weekly Pratipaksh edited by George Fernandes (Defence Minister of India 1999-2004, and presently a great pal of the RSS) in its edition of November 25, 1984 titled ‘Indira Congress-RSS collusion’ with the following editorial comment: “The author of the following document is known as an ideologue and policy formulator of the RSS. After the killing of Prime Minister (Indira Gandhi) he distributed this document among prominent politicians. It has a historical significance that is why we have decided to publish it, violating policy of our Weekly. This document highlights the new affinities developing between the Indira Congress and the RSS. We produce here the Hindi translation of the document.” This document may help in unmasking the whole lot of criminals involved in the massacre of innocent Sikhs who had nothing to do with the killing of Indira Gandhi. This document may also throw light on where the cadres came from, who meticulously organized the killing of Sikhs. Nana Deshmukh in this document is seen outlining the justification of the massacre of the Sikh community in 1984. According to him the massacre of Sikhs was not the handiwork of any group or anti-social elements but the result of a genuine feeling of anger among Hindus of India. This document also shows the true degenerated and fascist attitude of the RSS towards all the minorities of India. The RSS has been arguing that they are against Muslims and Christians because they are the followers of foreign religions. Here we find them justifying the butchering of Sikhs who according to their own categorization happened to be the followers of an indigenous religion. The RSS often poses as a firm believer in Hindu-Sikh unity. But in this document we will hear from the horse’s mouth that the RSS like the then Congress leadership, believed that the massacre of the innocent Sikhs was justified. Nana Deshmukh in this document is seen outlining the justification of the massacre of the Sikh community in 1984. His defence of the carnage can be summed up as in the following. 1. The massacre of Sikhs was not the handiwork of any group or anti-social elements but the result of a genuine feeling of anger among Hindus of India. 2. Deshmukh did not distinguish the action of the two security personnel of Mrs. Indira Gandhi, who happened to be Sikhs, from that of the whole Sikh community. From his document it emerges that the killers of Indira Gandhi were working under some kind of mandate of their community. Hence attacks on Sikhs were justified. 3. Sikhs themselves invited these attacks, thus advancing the Congress theory of justifying the massacre of the Sikhs. 4. He glorified the ‘Operation Blue Star’ and described any opposition to it as anti-national. When Sikhs were being killed in thousands he was warning the country of Sikh extremism, thus offering ideological defense of those killings. 5. It was Sikh community as a whole which was responsible for violence in Punjab. 6. Sikhs should have done nothing in self-defence but showed patience and tolerance against the killer mobs. 7. These were Sikh intellectuals and not killer mobs which were responsible for the massacre. They had turned Sikhs into a militant community, cutting them off from their Hindu roots, thus inviting attacks from the nationalist Indians. Interestingly, Deshmukh would not mind having militant Hindus. Moreover, he treated all Sikhs as part of the same gang and defended attacks on them as a reaction of the nationalist Hindus. 8. He described Indira Gandhi as the only leader who could keep the country united and on the killing of such a great leader such killings could not be avoided. 9. Rajiv Gandhi who succeeded Mrs. Gandhi as the Prime Minister of India and justified the nation- wide killings of Sikhs by saying, “When a huge tree falls there are always tremors felt”, was lauded and blessed by Nana Deshmukh at the end of the document. 10. Shockingly, the massacre of Sikhs was being equated with the attacks on the RSS cadres after the killing of Gandhiji and we find Deshmukh advising Sikhs to suffer silently. Everybody knows that the killing of Gandhiji was inspired by the RSS and the Hindutva Ideology whereas the common innocent Sikhs had nothing to do with the murder of Mrs. Indira Gandhi. 11. There was not a single sentence in the Deshmukh document demanding, from the then Congress Government at the Centre, remedial measures for controlling the violence against the minority community. Mind this, that Deshmukh circulated this document on November 8, 1984, and from October 31 to this date Sikhs were left alone to face the killing gangs. In fact November 5-10 was the period when the maximum killings of Sikhs took place. Deshmukh was just not bothered about all this. Deshmukh document did not happen in isolation. It represented the real RSS attitude towards Sikh genocide of 1984. The RSS is very fond of circulating publicity material, especially photographs of its khaki shorts- clad cadres doing social work. For the 1984 violence they have none. In fact, Deshmukh’s article also made no mention of the RSS cadres going to the rescue of Sikhs under siege. This shows up the real intentions of the RSS during the genocide. There is not a single sentence in the Deshmukh document demanding, from the then Congress Government at the Centre, remedial measures for controlling the violence against the minority community. Importantly, Deshmukh circulated this document on November 8, 1984, and from October 31 to this date Sikhs were left alone to face the killing gangs. George Fernandes while making this document public in 1984 wrote that it showed ‘Indira Congress-RSS collusion’. Nanavati Commission must investigate whether this collusion was confined to political sphere or went beyond to killing fields. The Deshmukh document is reproduced below. It is translated here from Hindi MOMENTS OF SOUL SEARCHING Indira Gandhi ultimately did secure a permanent place at the doorstep of history as a great martyr. With her dynamism borne out of her fearlessness and dexterity, she was able to take the country forward like a colossus for over a decade and was able to build an opinion that she alone understood the realities of the country, that she alone had the ability to run the decadent political system of our corrupt and divided society, and probably that she alone could keep the country united. She was a great lady and her death as a brave leader had added to her greatness. She was killed by a person in whom she kept faith despite several complaints. Such an influential and busy personality was killed by a person who had the duty to protect her person. This act came as a blow not only to her admirers in the country and the world but also her critics. This cowardly and treacherous act of killing not only ended the life of a great leader but also killed, in the name of the Panth, the mutual faith of humanity. Explosion of sudden arson and violent hysteria throughout the country was probably a direction-less and improper expression of the hurt, anger and feeling of loss of her followers. Lakhs of her followers used to see her as the only defender, powerful protector, and a symbol of united India. It is a different matter whether this is right or wrong. For these innocent and uninformed followers, the treacherous murder of Indira Gandhi was the tragic culmination of the poisonous campaign of separatism, antagonism and violence conducted over the previous three years in which hundreds of innocents had to lose their invaluable lives and the sanctity of religious places was destroyed. This campaign assumed an ominous pace after the painful army action in June which, in the eyes of most of the people of the country, had become necessary to protect the sanctity of the religious places. Barring a few exceptions, the Sikh community observed silence for a long time on the barbaric massacres and heinous killings of innocent people, but they condemned the long-pending army action with anger and dangerous explosiveness. The country was stunned at their attitude. The army action was compared to the “gallu ghara” action of Ahmed Shah Abdali in 1762 to desecrate the Harmandir Sahib. Without going into the objectives of the two incidents, Mrs. Gandhi was pushed into the category of Ahmed Shah Abdali. She was termed the enemy of the Sikh panth and big prizes were announced on her head. On the other hand Bhindrawale who was guilty of heinous crimes against humanity in the name of religion was hailed as a martyr. Open display of such feelings in different parts of the country and abroad played a special role in increasing the distrust and alienation between the Sikhs and the rest of Indians. In the background of this distrust and alienation, stunned and bewildered people accepted the validity of the rumours of celebrations by the Sikhs at the heinous murder of Indira Gandhi by her Sikh bodyguards in retaliation of the army action. Of these the most hurting explanation was that of Giani Kripal Singh who being the Head Granthi considered himself to be the sole spokesman of the Sikh community. He said that he expressed no sorrow at the death of Indira Gandhi. This statement added fuel to the fire of boiling anger. No immediate and natural condemnation of this despicable statement by an important leader came from responsible Sikh leaders, intellectuals or organization. Therefore the already angered common and unimaginative people took it as correct that the Sikhs celebrated the death of Indira Gandhi. Because of this belief, selfish elements could succeed in making the common people become violent against the hapless Sikhs. This was a most explosive situation which needed utmost patience and skilful conduct on behalf of our Sikh brothers. I am saying this, being a life member of the RSS, because on January 30, 1948 a Hindu fanatic, who was a Marathi and had no relation with the RSS, rather was a bitter critic of the Sangh, committed unfortunate killing of Mahatma Gandhi. On this occasion we also suffered the sudden eruption of hysteria, loot and atrocities of misdirected people. We ourselves saw how selfish elements who were well acquainted with this incident, deliberately declared a murderer to be a member of the RSS and also spread the rumour that the RSS people were celebrating throughout the country death of Mahatma Gandhi, and thus they succeeded in diverting the love and the feeling of loss and hurt in the hearts of people for Gandhi. Such feelings were spread against Swayamsewaks and their families, particularly in Mahrashtra. Having gone through such experiences myself, I can understand the strong reaction and feeling of innocent Sikh brothers who became of victims of sudden eruption of people’s violent hysteria. In fact, I would like to condemn in strongest words the inhuman barbarity and cruelty on Sikh brothers in Delhi and elsewhere. I feel proud of all those Hindu neighbours who protected lives and property of troubled Sikh brothers without caring for their lives. Such things one being heard from all over Delhi. These things have practically increased the faith in natural goodness of human behavior and particularly faith in Hindu nature. I am also worried at the Sikh reaction in such delicate and explosive situation. As an activist engaged in national reconstruction and unity for half a century and being a well wisher of Sikh community I am hesitating in saying that if reactive armed action by Sikhs is even partly true then they have not been able to evaluate the situation correctly and comprehensively and as a result could not respond according to the situation. Here I wish to draw the attention of all my countrymen including Sikhs that in a similar difficult situation arising out of murder of Mahatma Gandhi when in the hysteria against the RSS crimes of destruction of property, heinous burning alive of children, inhuman cruelty etc. were being committed and the news was reaching Nagpur from all over India, then the ‘dictator’ of the RSS known as the so-called big private army, the then head of the Sangh late M.S. Golwalkar issued an appeal in Nagpur on February 1, 1948 to the lakhs of armed young followers throughout the country in the following unforgettable words: ‘I direct all my Swayamsewak brothers that despite spread of provocation due to lack of understanding, they should adopt cordial attitude towards all and remember that this mutual distrust and improper hysteria is the result of the love and respect that the whole country has for Mahatma who made the country great in the eyes of the world. We salute such great respected departed soul’. These were not empty words to hide cowardice and helplessness in the hopeless situation. In those life threatening serious moments he proved that every word of his appeal had a meaning. On the evening of February 1, hundreds of Swayamsewaks in Nagpur urged for armed resistance and resisting till the last drop of their blood to stop the probable attack on their leader the same night. And some associates of Guruji told him of a conspiracy against his life and requested to shift his residence to a safe place before the attack, Guruji told them in such a black moment also that if the same people whom he had truly and with full ability, served throughout his life wanted to take his life, then why and for whom he should save his life. Thereafter he cautioned them in stern voice that even if a drop of blood of his countrymen was shed in saving him, then such a life would be useless for him. History is a witness that lakhs of Swayamsewaks spread throughout the country followed this directive word by word. Though they had to digest vulgarities in exchange of their patience and tolerance but there was a faith to give them patience that whatever may happen to them in present condition, history will definitely prove them innocent. I hope that in present difficult situation my Sikh brothers will also show the above-referred patience and tolerance. But I am deeply pained to know that rather than displaying such tolerance and patience at some places they have retaliated against the crowd with arms and played into the hands of such selfish elements who were eager to spread the trouble. I am surprised how a section of our society considered to be most disciplined, organized and religious, adopted such a negative and self-defeating attitude. May be they could not get proper leadership at the moments of such a crisis. Through my scanty study and understanding of Sikh history I consider that such a nonpolitical reaction of Sikhs in moments of such a crisis came from their complete involvement with teachings of love, tolerance and sacrifice of Sikh nature. Warrior nature of Sikh religion was a short time provision against barbarity of foreign Mughals which was taught by tenth Guru. For him Khalsa was a relatively small part of a broad Hindu-Sikh brotherhood and was designed as an armed hand to defend Hindu community and its traditions. Guru Govind Singh laid down for Khalsa followers five KS (Kesh, Kripan, Kangha, Kara and Kachha) and ‘Singh’ in the name of Khalsas. This was a symbol of their being soldiers. But unfortunately today these only are being projected as basic and necessary forms of Sikh religion. I am sorry to say that Sikh intellectuals too have failed to understand that conversion of Sikh religion into Khalsaism is a much later event and this was due to deliberate plan of British imperialists to divide and rule in Punjab. Its aim was to cut the Sikhs off from their Hindu environ. Unfortunately, after independence power hungry politicians kept alive for their own interest the unnaturally born problems of separation and equal existence, and carried forward the game of imperialists to divide and rule by their vote bank politics. This improper equating of Sikhs with militant Khalsaism is not only the basic root of separatist tendencies in some parts of Sikh community, but it also raised militancy and faith in the power of weapons to the level of religious worship. This religious worship gave rise to terrorist movement like Babbar Khalsa in the second decade and recently Indira Gandhi was killed as a result of terrorist wave under the leadership of Bhindrawale and a long ‘hit list’ is yet to be executed. I used to imagine that Sikh community has freed itself totally from illiteracy, ignorance, frustration and defeatism in which it was in the fifth decade of 19th century after losing its freedom and which was exploited by cunning British imperialists and selfish Sikh elites for their selfish interests. It is clear that in eighth decade Sikhs adorning the places of high responsibility represent highly educated, laborious, vigilant, relatively rich, enlightened and active section of Indian society in every walk of life. In nineteenth century their experiences and vision was limited to the boundaries of the then Punjab but today they are spread not only throughout India but throughout the world, and they are in a situation to directly know the conspiracies of big powers which are being hatched against independent and united India rising strongly in the world. In such an advantageous situation they should know their historical development as an integral part of India. Such a revaluation of history will give them the opportunity to see many wrong formulations of their own religion and past which has been systematically drilled into their brains by wrong and distorted historical writings by British administrators and intellectuals about nature and development of their religion. Such an attempt will take them to their real roots. This is the time that our Sikh brothers should search their hearts so that they can get rid of the false description inserted by British imperialists and power greedy opportunist people into their basic religious nature. Removal of such false descriptions is necessary to bridge the gulf of distrust and alienation between two communities of similar destiny, nature and similar traditions. I am afraid that without such a self-introspection and revaluation of history they would not be able to live with peace among themselves and with other countrymen. A disinterested analysis of their own enlightened interests will be enough to make them understand that their fate is indivisibly linked with the destiny of India. Such an understanding will save them from falling prey to the disruptive and destructive interests of foreign powers. I disbelieve (sic) that my Sikh brothers will accept the cautious words of spiritual expression of a well-wisher. Lastly, it is not to deny the truth that sudden removal of Indira Gandhi from Indian political scene has created a dangerous void in the Indian common life. But India has always displayed a characteristic inner strength in the moments of such crisis and uncertainty. According to our traditions, responsibility of power has been placed on the inexperienced shoulders of relatively young person in a lively and peaceful manner. It will be hasty to judge the potentialities of his leadership at this time. We should give him some time to show his ability. On such challenging juncture of the country, in the meanwhile he is entitled to get full cooperation and sympathy from the countrymen, though they may belong to any language, religion, caste or political belief. In the capacity of a nonpolitical constructive worker I only hope and pray that God bless him with more mature, balanced, inner strength and ability to give an impartial Govt. to the people so that he can take the country to real prosperous unity and glory. Guru Nanak Divas November 8, 1984 Nana Deshmukh -- http://venukm.blogspot.com/ From kmvenuannur at gmail.com Sat Apr 11 04:02:19 2009 From: kmvenuannur at gmail.com (Venugopalan K M) Date: Sat, 11 Apr 2009 04:02:19 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Pardon Us, If This Is The Ram Rajya By Aleem Faizee (Countercurrents.org) Message-ID: <1f9180970904101532s70ba514bi8fd15749e1ff733e@mail.gmail.com> Pardon Us, If This Is The Ram Rajya By Aleem Faizee 09 April, 2009 Countercurrents.org Bhartiya Janata Party (BJP) while releasing the party manifesto on Friday April 3, 2009 reaffirmed its faith in Ram Rajya. ‘If there's a definition of an ideal state in India it has been the idea of Ram Rajya’, the BJP leaders have reportedly asserted. It was not surprising to see the party coming with such a manifesto as the assertion has always been there in BJP’s agenda. This is altogether a different story why when it came to power in 1999 general elections, along with other favorite party agendas, this agenda also took the backseat. Congress spokesperson is right when he says these are the issues BJP remembers only at the time of elections. However one needs to ask the BJP leaders what kind of Ram Rajya they intend to bring to the country. For not very long ago we had seen them endorsing the demolition of the Babri Masjid and blissfully dancing as the errant mob pulled down the historic mosque brick by brick. Before that the Prime Ministerial candidate of the party, which is assuring to bring Ram Rajya, riding on the Rath was spurting venom in the whole country. Ram Rajya as far as we have learnt is supposed to provide safety, equality and justice to everyone and respect to every religion and every cast. How then the BJP leaders justify their leading and encouraging the mob to demolish a religious site? When in Orissa Graham Stewart Stains was burnt alive along with his innocent children, the country expected, the BJP leadership would behave responsibly and would condemn the culprits. Sadly they were mute spectators to the barbaric act. They remained so even when hundreds of people were killed in Gujarat and properties worth millions were looted and set on fire. The women were forcibly stripped, raped and then paraded naked on streets in the clear daylight. Those were the tragic moments when even the unborn children still in the womb were not safe. BJP was part of the Government in Orissa and was in power during the Gujarat genocide. The country rightly expected tough actions from them. However the BJP leaders not only shied away from fulfilling their constitutional duties but in a brazen act some of them even tried to justify the heinous crimes. Almost whole of the country was crying for action but its Chief Minister was gleefully floating the action and reaction theory to justify what everyone was terming as genocide of the innocent people. Even after the massacre of over two thousand innocents, the state Chief Minister failed to bring peace to the people belonging to the minority community in Gujarat. The areas where the riot victims were rehabilitated became the hunting ground for the investigating agencies after every terrorist attack in the country. Police encounters killing the people who were allegedly up in arms to kill the BJP leaders became order of the day. Ironically the entire theory of the plans to kill the BJP leaders widely publicized to score political mileage received a severe blow when few of the encounters were declared as fake and Human Rights activists raised doubts over other encounters. However the BJP leadership who is promising a Ram Rajya for the country never showed any kind of remorse over the innocent killings. Interestingly while the BJP was rejoicing as its support base widened with every terrorist attack, the slain ATS Chief Hemant Karkare decided to come with the unusual. To their misery, Karkare not only unveiled the hitherto hidden face of the Hindu Terrorism but dealt with those found guilty with an iron hand. The country had expected the BJP leaders would take the same stand they had taken so far while dealing with the Muslim Terrorists. But the entire Saffron Brigade shocked the nation by defending the terrorists and some of them by showering the terrorists with flowers. Nowhere in the country had people seen the kind of affections that the Saffron Brigade extended to the terrorists allegedly involved in Malegaon and other terrorist attacks. Not even from them who had raised objections over the indiscriminate detention of the Muslim youths. ‘If the Muslim accused had done anything wrong they should be hanged in public’, Muslim leaders and the parents of the accused had reiterated at more than one occasion. In total contrast to this some of the people owing allegiance to the party, which is now luring the electorates with Ram Rajya, were demonstrating their fondness for the alleged terrorists belonging to the Hindu right wing organisations. ‘We are proud of them even if they masterminded the terrorist attacks’, they were proclaiming in front of the TV cameras. On the contrary when it came to actually fighting the terrorism, the country was stunned to find the BJP leadership surrendering to the terrorists and its Minister himself carrying them to their designated destination. Same is the party’s record when it came to dealing with corruption. The fact that the TV cameras caught its party president taking the bribe money is enough to show the party’s seriousness in tackling the danger of corruption. As for the foreign policy, whenever BJP looks for allies in the world there one and only choice is Israel, the state no friend of anyone. Sure like any other party in the country BJP has the right to seek the majority in elections. Likewise LK Advani too has every right to aspire for the top post. However the party and LK Advani owe an explanation to the nation about the kind of Ram Rajya they intend to bring to the country. On one hand they speak of the Ram Rajya but on the other they indulge in the politics of hatred, injustice and inequality. The party’s support extended to Varun Gandhi’s hate speech is the latest example. The party has been accused of dividing the nation on communal lines by none other than the Prime Minister. It has also been termed as responsible for the growing terrorism in the country by Sharad Pawar. Moreover the country has not yet forgotten what Gujarat Chief Minister Narendra Modi had said to then Prime Minister Atal Bihari Vajpayee in reply to his advice to uphold the values of Rajya Dharma in Gujarat, where the violence was reaching its peak. To the shock of the nation and perhaps former Prime Minister Vajpayee too, Modi had replied, Wahi to ker reha hoo (That is what I am doing). One does not need any further explanation to know what Narendra Modi and his state missionary was doing at that time. Is this the kind of Ram Rajya BJP intends to bring to the country? If it is really so, then the country surely needs something else. (The writer is Executive Editor of the Internet Magazine http://www.ummid.com. He can be reached at aleem.faizee at gmail.com) -- http://venukm.blogspot.com/ From 2tahamehmood at googlemail.com Sat Apr 11 04:51:28 2009 From: 2tahamehmood at googlemail.com (Taha Mehmood) Date: Sat, 11 Apr 2009 00:21:28 +0100 Subject: [Reader-list] Seize the moment In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <49DFD478.1060503@gmail.com> Dear Sandeep Could you please elaborate on your, 'bit soft but ok', remark, in a sense that, what do you mean by it? More specifically I would be interested in knowing your views on the word 'soft'. For in the last five years when Congress was in power, the word 'soft' was used on many occasions by the likes of BJP to provide a general description of the ruling dispensation. This is diametrically opposite to a view which conjures up when we say-'hard', a word, which many in BJP would like to associate. This word resonates even in the speeches of the RSS. For instance, I was particularly appalled to hear the speech of Mohan Bagwat, the newly selected RSS boss, wherein on numerous occasions he uses Sanskritized words which could be roughly translated to the word 'hard', to describe the tasks which RSS has to do, the decisions which RSS has to take and so on. ( you may access this speech on the RSS website- http://www.rss.org/ ). This speech was given on the occasion of Sarsanghchalak Pranam on the evening of 21st March in Nagpur. I was deeply shocked to hear RSS boss, Bhagwat, utter a blatant lie, which was completely unconstitutional that, 'India is a Hindu Rashtra'. For him, and unfortunately for many others who are charmed by RSS's ideology, a view that India must only belong to adherents of one particular religion is a 'hard' fact. with warm regards Taha Sandeep wrote: > bit soft but ok > > > > http://www.india-seminar.com/2009/593/593_javed_anand.htm > > > > > > > > > From asad_abbasi at hotmail.com Sat Apr 11 05:43:01 2009 From: asad_abbasi at hotmail.com (asad abbasi) Date: Sat, 11 Apr 2009 00:13:01 +0000 Subject: [Reader-list] MNIC? The MIND? sixth sense? In-Reply-To: <49DEC0E7.1030202@sarai.net> References: <49DEC0E7.1030202@sarai.net> Message-ID: Dear vivek, First of all ,let me apologise for your disappointment to this video. I, personally, did like it and appreciated what I saw. And as you must know that before posting I myself have seen this video and do exactly know that it has nothing to do with reading one persons mind. But if it is the name of the device I really can’t say it by any other name. (can I?) May be you missed the discussion between kshmendra and Taha on this readers list about the article which the former posted about a technology that government of India wants to introduce. If you have time do read their mails they are quite interesting (and hopefully won’t take as much as 8 minutes). And one more thing, I did say it may take years or a decade only if such thing can be made. Quoting myself (even though I don’t like doing it a lot) “I believe [it] is still a hypothetical thing and might take years or a decade before even coming to market.(if anything such as the proposed one can be built- that is).” Also I would like to thank you for reply and reading my post and taking out time to share your thoughts with me and everyone. P.S I have copied the first post by kshmendra incase you cant find it or don’t have time to look for it. Regards, Asad India developing technology to read terrorist's mind Agencies Posted: Apr 07, 2009 at 1255 hrs Bangalore In what could help building better strategy for anti-terror mechanism in the country, the Department of Science and Technology is facilitating a group of bright scientists to develop a complex human cognitive technology which would allow reading the mind of a terrorist. At the same time, scientists are also developing sensors that would detect hidden devices. As many as 30 groups are involved in the initiative, part of homeland security, said Secretary in the Department of Science and Technology, T Ramasami. The idea is to integrate the technology and sensors to nail down terrorists, he said. The Department is funding the programme, which has been taken up on a consortium model, Ramasami said, adding, he is requesting Indian Institute of Science, Bangalore, to lead the teams. "People who understand language, linguistics and people who look at nuclear magnetic resonance...they have come together to really understand the human cognition associated with the linguistic language processes in the mind," he said. "This would really involve people from highly different disciplines including social sciences and humanities to people who understand physics in this mechanism." http://www.expressindia.com/latest-news/India-developing-technology-to-read-terrorists-mind/444166/ > Date: Fri, 10 Apr 2009 09:15:43 +0530 > From: vivek at sarai.net > To: asad_abbasi at hotmail.com; reader-list at sarai.net > Subject: Re: [Reader-list] MNIC? The MIND? sixth sense? > > Dear Asad, > > I just spent 8 minutes watching the video you linked to, and was very > disappointed, to say the least. The so-called "sixth sense" technology > is really just a more efficient and stylish way of providing > google-on-the-go and has nothing whatsoever to do with actually reading > another person's mind. If you really do believe that this device would > "in disguise" lead to being able to "read a terrorist's mind", could you > elaborate on how that would happen? > > Also, since you seem to speak knowledgeably about "the device that the > government of India wants to go ahead with", could you tell us what the > device is exactly, and where you found the information that it is only > ten years-- at most-- from being released in the market? > > Vivek. > > asad abbasi wrote: > > http://www.ted.com/index.php/talks/pattie_maes_demos_the_sixth_sense.html > > > > Dear All, > > Concerning the on going discussion about the device that government of India wants to go ahead with, which allegedly can identify the terrorist, I believe is still a hypothetical thing and might take years or a decade before even coming to market.(if anything such as the proposed one can be built- that is). But recently I saw a video about a project called sixth sense which I believe is the new kind of technology and in disguise may guide us greater innovations. > > I personally won’t comment on things the presenter had to say about knowledge and optimal decisions that we make because I think she lacked bit of clarity (at least for me) but the gadget totally moved me at some points and I hope every one enjoys what can be the future of our generation. > > > > Regards > > > > ASAD > > _________________________________________________________________ > > View your Twitter and Flickr updates from one place – Learn more! > > http://clk.atdmt.com/UKM/go/137984870/direct/01/ > > _________________________________________ > > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > > Critiques & Collaborations > > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with subscribe in the subject header. > > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> > > _________________________________________________________________ View your Twitter and Flickr updates from one place – Learn more! http://clk.atdmt.com/UKM/go/137984870/direct/01/ From sub_sengupta at yahoo.co.in Thu Apr 9 13:44:03 2009 From: sub_sengupta at yahoo.co.in (subhrodip sengupta) Date: Thu, 9 Apr 2009 13:44:03 +0530 (IST) Subject: [Reader-list] =?utf-8?q?Fw=3A__The_world=E2=80=99s_cheapest_car?= =?utf-8?q?=3F?= Message-ID: <351962.63639.qm@web94714.mail.in2.yahoo.com> ----- Forwarded Message ---- From: Taha Mehmood <2tahamehmood at googlemail.com> To: subhrodip sengupta Sent: Thursday, 9 April, 2009 1:40:56 PM Subject: Re: [Reader-list] The world’s cheapest car? Hey subhrodip...that's an interesting argument..why don't you put it up on the list too...let other members also share this view. t subhrodip sengupta wrote: > > Well summarised, Taha ji > Nano will cater mostly to increasing demand for cars in domestic market, which says, it is /not because it is darn cheap/, /technology for common man/ (given state of public transport in most cities, people would rather preffer this, than care of streets n air as they too can now afford it, as an alternative think of expanding metros, energy saving/alternative energy, electrical cars or one developed by Kol couple), /it is simply cheaper and sleezier than Maruti Suzuki so that it had to retire./ And then you have fuel costs etc. I do not still visualize neumerous tiny beetle-worms through the street, but it is definitely Sir Ratan Tata's new busines strategy to enjoy huge state subsidies. Top it all with premium model at Rs.1.86L, cheapest well above Rs.1.3L excluding taxes, he is trying to hit export market fgrom Singur. Surrely there is demand for small cars in the world, but not as the cheapest. Besides I guess there in some countries this man'll have to bribe their testing centres. Acoording to some reliable sources and interns, Nano had failed most of 6 mandatory tests at PCRA. A bigger emmitor than bikes, and a new name of consumerism, well let's see! Interesting Gujarat and West Bengal are both places where Genocide is possible without large effects and defended by INDUSTRIALISATION. But what can be done, other than finding means to report such facts to his target consumers? And Sir being a businessman, has been tryin to rob the political hemispheres, but if awareness increases and taxes are designed to avoid cheaper and more emmisioning cars, something can be done. Surely the techno-savvy middle class who organised mass campaigns for it will be convinced this time? or No? > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > Did you know? You can CHAT without downloading messenger. Click here Connect with friends all over the world. Get Yahoo! India Messenger at http://in.messenger.yahoo.com/?wm=n/ From sonia.jabbar at gmail.com Sat Apr 11 10:16:02 2009 From: sonia.jabbar at gmail.com (S. Jabbar) Date: Sat, 11 Apr 2009 10:16:02 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] interesting facts In-Reply-To: <002601c9b9c7$0755e530$0201a8c0@limo> Message-ID: Since 2004, the enlightened author of this email informs us, under UPA rule, 3,850 Indians have died in terrorism related attacks. It then goes on to advocate that we should vote for the 'lesser of the two evils.' I'm not going to go into an examination of the definition of evil, nor comment on his views on minorities but I think it would be instructive to see how many Indians died in terror-related attacks (not including communal violence) during the 5 and a 1/2 years of BJP rule. 1998: 2,345 1999: 2,140 2000: 2,591 2001: 2,414 2002: 1,797 2003: 1,607* That makes a total of 12,894 people killed or roughly 3.4 times that of the UPA tenure. *South Asia Terrorism Portal, which compiles its data from the Home Ministry, GoI. Www.satp.org > From: bipin > Reply-To: bipin > Date: Fri, 10 Apr 2009 15:58:01 +0530 > To: sarai-list > Subject: [Reader-list] interesting facts > > Dear All, I am giving interesting facts giving as under published by Art of > Living Foundations. Please read it carefully. It clear assessment of present > govt. A) Is this Government really protecting us??!! 7/11 2006: Mumbai > Train Blasts. 209 Killed. 25/8 2007: Hyderbad Blasts: 42 Killed Oct 11 2007: > Ajmer Blasts : 2 Killed May 13 2008: Jaipur Blasts : 68 Killed July 16th 2008: > Ahmedabad Blasts : 57 Killed July 25th 2008: Banglaore Blasts: 1 killed Sept > 13th 2008: Delhi Blasts: 26 Killed Sept 27th 2008: Delhi Blasts: 2 Killed Sept > 29th 2008 : Gujrat Blasts : 1 killed Oct 21st 2008: Imphal Blasts : 17 > Killed Oct 30th 2008: Assam Blasts : 40 Killed Nov 26th 2008: Mumbai Attack: > 180 killed Every major city in India has been attacked consistently over the > last two years. Since 2004, 3850 Indians have died in Terror attacks in over > 3000 incidents. Is the common Indian on the streets really safe ? Did you > know that on the day of the Mumbai train blasts, the Government gave Rs 150 > crores for earthquake relief in Pakistan ? Last year our Govt. has given Rs > 3000 crores (600 Million Dollars) to Afghanistan? This, when victims of terror > in India have not yet got aid? What's going on? B) Is this Government really > secular ? 1) When Madrasas are being shut down in Pakistan, the > Indian Government is giving them CBSE status !! It is depriving > Muslim children in getting secular education. A Madrasa educated person > can get a job in any government office without going through the > secular education system. Can India afford to have fundamentalists > in government departments? Why cannot the government shut down Madrassas and > let Muslim children study with the rest? 2) Our Government has given 25 lakh > scholarships ONLY to minority students. What sin have the majority done not to > deserve these? Why cannot poor students of all communities be given > scholarships instead of only Muslim children? 3) Thanks to the Congress led > Government, out of 36000 temples in Andhra Pradesh, 28000 have closed down in > the last five years. Do you want the same trend to continue in other parts of > the country? Do you want a Nagaland type of situation in the whole of India? > While government controls most of the Hindu temples, the minority > community has had full freedom to organize their religious bodies. The > minority communities now have the first right over resources. Is this not > a blatant violation of fundamental rights of the majority community? 4) Why > have the minorities in Nagaland, Mizoram & Kashmir not got the similar > privileges like the minorities in other states? Why is the Govt following > different rules for different religions? C) Is this government really making > friends or enemies for India ? Thanks to a weak and visionless foreign > policy, India has created enemies all around. By the Home Minister's own > admission : "India is surrounded by a circle of fire". Rajiv Gandhi's vision > of a powerful "SAARC" is now defunct. 1) Today, India commands little respect > from all its neighbours, despite being the largest democracy in the world. 2) > Terrorism has engulfed the country from inside and outside. Of course > Pakistan,the motherland of international terrorism continues to be a big > threat. 3) China has territorial ambitions on India. 4) Nepal, is now being > headed by a Maoist government and is ideologically more aligned to China. > While India helped to dismantle the dynastic rule in Nepal our own Government > surreptitiously supports dynastic rule within its own party. 5) Myanmar is > increasingly aligning with Chinese forces with huge Chinese investments in > that region. 6) Failure of Indian Policies in Srilanka. 7) Bangladesh > continues to repeatedly aid and abet terrorism. D) Is this Government really > pro-poor? The number of people living below the poverty line has increased by > a horrifying 20 per cent. India had some 270 million people below the poverty > line in 2004-2005, when the present Government took office. That number has > gone up to 325 million, an increse by 55 million, or 20 per cent! E) Does > this Government really care about the nation? The Pakistani flag is now being > hoisted in five districts of states like Assam where the Muslim population has > gone up significantly. 92000 Hindu and 6000 Christians are now languishing in > refugee camps. The government has turned a blind eye to this. In the name of > security, innocent people have been put in jails, whereas people like Yaasin > Malik who has 23 murder charges on him, are moving Scot free and gathering > their own strength. Is it acceptable to any patriotic Indian? Can the > Congress led UPA promise a non-muslim CM in J&K ? Reservation for a Hindu > student in Nagaland ? If so, we wholeheartedly support them. Otherwise they > should sit at home the next few years and rethink their policies. Can our > politicians stop stooping down to any lengths just for money and power ? Like > Mr.Sharad Pawar, who first ditched the Congress and then ditched the people > and aligned back with the Congress, just to be in power and almost all the so > called secular parties does the same thing. Don't be deceived. What appears > to be communal is not communal, and what appears to be secular is not secular. > It is time we change our thinking. Having said all this even BJP has not > proved to be any better. But for now we need a change. Let us choose the > lesser of the two evils. The same party brought to power again and again means > encouraging unabated corruption. Stand up for this most tolerant and ancient > civilization and prevent this great nation from becoming a communal > battleground. As citizens of India we must vote for change. WAKE UP INDIANS. > LET US VOTE FOR CHANGE. -- Dinesh Ghodke Director, WAYE World Alliance for > Youth Empowerment The Art of Living Foundation Blog - > www.bawandinesh.name _________________________________________ reader-list: an > open discussion list on media and the city. Critiques & Collaborations To > subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with subscribe in > the subject header. To unsubscribe: > https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list List archive: > <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> From nc-agricowi at netcologne.de Thu Apr 9 13:36:31 2009 From: nc-agricowi at netcologne.de (CTQ) Date: Thu, 09 Apr 2009 10:06:31 +0200 Subject: [Reader-list] =?iso-8859-1?q?=5BAnnouncements=5D_call=3A_The_Best?= =?iso-8859-1?q?_of_Flash_on_the_Net?= Message-ID: <20090409100631.95BE96A7.27A79148@192.168.0.3> extended deadline:30 June 2009 -------------------------------- Cinematheque - streaming media project environments http://cinema.nmartproject.net Call for entries \\ Flash & Thunder Flash as a medium and tool for artistic creations // Since the Internet became popular in the late 90'ies of 20th century, the software program "FLASH", once developed and prepared for the commercial market by Macromedia, and now owned by Adobe, represents a vector based developing environment which enables the creator to combine different media and develop vector based animations especially for the Internet. .swf data file extension became a standard for animations online and offline, and Flash video and its .flv file format stands for "videostreaming" on the net. As soon as the Internet started, artists captured it for artistic purposes, and the same is good for certain software used for the net, particularly Flash is predestined for developing artistic creations due to its intuitive use. It became one of the most popular software tools for the net, computer based animations and interactive applications like games. Flash based artworks entered media festivals, even festivals solely based on movies created in Flash are organised. After Cinematheque - streaming media environments - explored in 2007 the capabilities of "Quicktime" as an artistic medium in the comprehensive show \\Slowtime? Quicktime as an artistic medium// - its now the time to explore in 2009 the artistic potential of Flash in its own way in a big online show, as well. // Flash and Thunder Flash as a medium and tool for artistic creations \\ Cinematheque is looking for the best artistic Flash works created since 2000. Please find the regulations and entry form on http://www.nmartproject.net/netex/?p=408 /////////////////////////////////////////////////////////// Cinematheque - streaming media project environments http://cinema.nmartproject.net is a corporate part of [NewMediaArtProjectNetwork]:||cologne http://www.nmartproject.net - the experimental platform for art and new media from Cologne/Germany ///////////////////////////////////////////////////////// _______________________________________________ announcements mailing list announcements at sarai.net https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/announcements From alinamal2009 at gmail.com Thu Apr 9 23:52:34 2009 From: alinamal2009 at gmail.com (Alina MediaArtLab) Date: Thu, 9 Apr 2009 22:22:34 +0400 Subject: [Reader-list] [Announcements] CALL FOR ENTRIES!!!X Media Forum in the frames of Moscow International Film Festival Message-ID: <58e659f0904091122i4aa52680uef3d75cb7a93b210@mail.gmail.com> MediaArtLab Centre for Culture has started to receive requests for taking part in Media Forum 2009. It will be held in the frame of 31 Moscow International Film Festival from 23 to 28 of June. This is the 10 years Media Forum exists. The objective of Media Forum is to demonstrate the connection between traditional and modern branches of screen culture, the impact of technological innovations on visual arts. We hope that you will be interested to learn more about Media Forum 2009 here http://mediaforum.mediaartlab.ru/en/ -------------- next part -------------- _______________________________________________ announcements mailing list announcements at sarai.net https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/announcements From pawan.durani at gmail.com Sat Apr 11 10:27:10 2009 From: pawan.durani at gmail.com (Pawan Durani) Date: Sat, 11 Apr 2009 10:27:10 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Fwd: interesting facts In-Reply-To: <341380d00904100829w1050a67fn17987a1cd82887b8@mail.gmail.com> References: <002601c9b9c7$0755e530$0201a8c0@limo> <6b79f1a70904100358y4299e1d3p715dc3aef750b469@mail.gmail.com> <341380d00904100554o750ef5efgc943a341d73e2ec0@mail.gmail.com> <341380d00904100555o1af61e9x57996cc88adb67f@mail.gmail.com> <6b79f1a70904100634u470fb903w5256c0ecbae2a879@mail.gmail.com> <341380d00904100829w1050a67fn17987a1cd82887b8@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <6b79f1a70904102157l57398c31r215f2ef91edeb0c6@mail.gmail.com> Dear Anupam , I do not wish to produce any more evidence , as you are in a denial mode. The video os Pakistani Flag being hoisted in Assam are an indication of Talibanisation of whole of India. This denial mode is an expression of the necessity of being 'sickular'. Regards Pawan On Fri, Apr 10, 2009 at 8:59 PM, anupam chakravartty wrote: > Dear Pawan, > > Your understanding is based on a youtube video. there fore your perception > is coloured. if you want to call a spade, a spade. you really ought to be > present there. your youtube evidence doesnt go in the court of the law. for > your kind information, after watching the same video, district collectors > and mamladars from that area visited those camps. kindly stop using > 'sickular'. i would consider it derogatory. > > On 4/10/09, Pawan Durani wrote: > > > > Dear Anupam Ji , > > > > You have often negated the news that Pakistani flag had been hoisted in > > Assam . I fail to understand why do we always have to be 'sickular' and > > provide wrong justifications and avoid truth. > > > > An islamic flag is a a complete green flag with the symbol of crescent / > > star in it. While as a pakistani flag has a white border attached to it > on > > the side which is closer to the pole on which it is hoisted. > > > > The flag which were hoisted were pure pakistani flag and you can check > from > > the video at this link > > > > http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0oI-PjQkXx4 > > > > You and me may differ on many things , but i do not expect you to lie and > > provide wrong justification which moves us away from reality. > > > > The Pakistani flags were hoisted at following places in > Assam....Sonaripara > > primary school ground, Kalaigaon and Mohanppur in Udalguri . > > > > Hope the video [ Times Now reporting ] would enlighten you as well as > many > > other 'sickulars'. > > > > Regards > > > > pawan > > > > > > > > On Fri, Apr 10, 2009 at 6:25 PM, anupam chakravartty >wrote: > > > >> ---------- Forwarded message ---------- > >> From: anupam chakravartty > >> Date: Apr 10, 2009 6:24 PM > >> Subject: Re: [Reader-list] interesting facts > >> To: Pawan Durani > >> > >> Dear Bipin, > >> > >> Though i agree with you on most of the facts. there is one thing i > wanted > >> to > >> point out stated by the writer. he says that five refugee camps hoisted > >> the > >> pakistani flags in assam. do you know what that was for? > >> > >> over night 55 bodos and 45 muslims were killed. hundreds were homeless > in > >> udalguri and barpeta. these refugees needed to identify the camps which > >> had > >> other muslim refugees. the sickle and the star on green background is > >> islamic symbol just like the aum symbol or the star of david. > >> thanks anupam > >> > >> > >> On 4/10/09, Pawan Durani wrote: > >> > > >> > Interesting facts....... > >> > > >> > On Fri, Apr 10, 2009 at 3:58 PM, bipin wrote: > >> > > >> > > Dear All, > >> > > > >> > > I am giving interesting facts giving as under published by Art of > >> Living > >> > > Foundations. Please read it carefully. It clear assessment of > present > >> > govt. > >> > > > >> > > > >> > > A) Is this Government really protecting us??!! > >> > > > >> > > 7/11 2006: Mumbai Train Blasts. 209 Killed. > >> > > 25/8 2007: Hyderbad Blasts: 42 Killed > >> > > Oct 11 2007: Ajmer Blasts : 2 Killed > >> > > May 13 2008: Jaipur Blasts : 68 Killed > >> > > July 16th 2008: Ahmedabad Blasts : 57 Killed > >> > > July 25th 2008: Banglaore Blasts: 1 killed > >> > > Sept 13th 2008: Delhi Blasts: 26 Killed > >> > > Sept 27th 2008: Delhi Blasts: 2 Killed > >> > > Sept 29th 2008 : Gujrat Blasts : 1 killed > >> > > Oct 21st 2008: Imphal Blasts : 17 Killed > >> > > Oct 30th 2008: Assam Blasts : 40 Killed > >> > > Nov 26th 2008: Mumbai Attack: 180 killed > >> > > > >> > > Every major city in India has been attacked consistently over the > last > >> > > two years. > >> > > Since 2004, 3850 Indians have died in Terror attacks in over 3000 > >> > > incidents. > >> > > Is the common Indian on the streets really safe ? > >> > > > >> > > Did you know that on the day of the Mumbai train blasts, the > >> > > Government gave Rs 150 crores for earthquake relief in Pakistan ? > Last > >> > > year our Govt. has given Rs 3000 crores (600 Million Dollars) to > >> > > Afghanistan? This, when victims of terror in India have not yet got > >> > > aid? What's going on? > >> > > > >> > > B) Is this Government really secular ? > >> > > > >> > > 1) When Madrasas are being shut down in Pakistan, the Indian > >> > > Government is giving them CBSE status !! It is depriving Muslim > >> > > children in getting secular education. A Madrasa educated person can > >> > > get a job in any government office without going through the secular > >> > > education system. Can India afford to have fundamentalists in > >> > > government departments? Why cannot the government shut down > Madrassas > >> > > and let Muslim children study with the rest? > >> > > > >> > > 2) Our Government has given 25 lakh scholarships ONLY to minority > >> > students. > >> > > What sin have the majority done not to deserve these? > >> > > Why cannot poor students of all communities be given scholarships > >> > > instead of only Muslim children? > >> > > > >> > > 3) Thanks to the Congress led Government, out of 36000 temples in > >> > > Andhra Pradesh, 28000 have closed down in the last five years. Do > you > >> > > want the same trend to continue in other parts of the country? Do > you > >> > > want a Nagaland type of situation in the whole of India? While > >> > > government controls most of the Hindu temples, the minority > community > >> > > has had full freedom to organize their religious bodies. The > minority > >> > > communities now have the first right over resources. Is this not a > >> > > blatant violation of fundamental rights of the majority community? > >> > > > >> > > 4) Why have the minorities in Nagaland, Mizoram & Kashmir not got > the > >> > > similar privileges like the minorities in other states? Why is the > >> > > Govt following different rules for different religions? > >> > > > >> > > C) Is this government really making friends or enemies for India ? > >> > > > >> > > Thanks to a weak and visionless foreign policy, India has created > >> > > enemies all around. By the Home Minister's own admission : "India is > >> > > surrounded by a circle of fire". Rajiv Gandhi's vision of a powerful > >> > > "SAARC" is now defunct. > >> > > > >> > > 1) Today, India commands little respect from all its neighbours, > >> > > despite being the largest democracy in the world. > >> > > 2) Terrorism has engulfed the country from inside and outside. Of > >> > > course Pakistan,the motherland of international terrorism continues > to > >> > > be a big threat. > >> > > 3) China has territorial ambitions on India. > >> > > 4) Nepal, is now being headed by a Maoist government and is > >> > > ideologically more aligned to China. While India helped to dismantle > >> > > the dynastic rule in Nepal our own Government surreptitiously > supports > >> > > dynastic rule within its own party. > >> > > 5) Myanmar is increasingly aligning with Chinese forces with huge > >> > > Chinese investments in that region. > >> > > 6) Failure of Indian Policies in Srilanka. > >> > > 7) Bangladesh continues to repeatedly aid and abet terrorism. > >> > > > >> > > D) Is this Government really pro-poor? > >> > > > >> > > The number of people living below the poverty line has increased by > a > >> > > horrifying 20 per cent. India had some 270 million people below the > >> > > poverty line in 2004-2005, when the present Government took office. > >> > > That number has gone up to 325 million, an increse by 55 million, or > >> 20 > >> > per > >> > > cent! > >> > > > >> > > E) Does this Government really care about the nation? > >> > > > >> > > The Pakistani flag is now being hoisted in five districts of states > >> > > like Assam where the Muslim population has gone up significantly. > >> > > 92000 Hindu and 6000 Christians are now languishing in refugee > camps. > >> > > The government has turned a blind eye to this. > >> > > > >> > > In the name of security, innocent people have been put in jails, > >> > > whereas people like Yaasin Malik who has 23 murder charges on him, > are > >> > > moving Scot free and gathering their own strength. Is it acceptable > to > >> > > any patriotic Indian? > >> > > > >> > > Can the Congress led UPA promise a non-muslim CM in J&K ? > Reservation > >> > > for a Hindu student in Nagaland ? If so, we wholeheartedly support > >> > > them. Otherwise they should sit at home the next few years and > rethink > >> > > their policies. > >> > > > >> > > Can our politicians stop stooping down to any lengths just for money > >> > > and power ? Like Mr.Sharad Pawar, who first ditched the Congress and > >> > > then ditched the people and aligned back with the Congress, just to > be > >> > > in power and almost all the so called secular parties does the same > >> > thing. > >> > > > >> > > Don't be deceived. What appears to be communal is not communal, and > >> > > what appears to be secular is not secular. It is time we change our > >> > > thinking. > >> > > > >> > > Having said all this even BJP has not proved to be any better. > >> > > But for now we need a change. Let us choose the lesser of the two > >> evils. > >> > > The same party brought to power again and again means encouraging > >> > > unabated corruption. > >> > > > >> > > Stand up for this most tolerant and ancient civilization and prevent > >> > > this great nation from becoming a communal battleground. As citizens > >> > > of India we must vote for change. > >> > > > >> > > WAKE UP INDIANS. LET US VOTE FOR CHANGE. > >> > > > >> > > > >> > > -- > >> > > Dinesh Ghodke > >> > > Director, WAYE > >> > > World Alliance for Youth Empowerment > >> > > The Art of Living Foundation > >> > > Blog - www.bawandinesh.name > >> > > _________________________________________ > >> > > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > >> > > Critiques & Collaborations > >> > > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > >> > > subscribe in the subject header. > >> > > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > >> > > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> > >> > _________________________________________ > >> > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > >> > Critiques & Collaborations > >> > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > >> > subscribe in the subject header. > >> > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > >> > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> > >> _________________________________________ > >> reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > >> Critiques & Collaborations > >> To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > >> subscribe in the subject header. > >> To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > >> List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> > >> > > > > > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > subscribe in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> > From rakesh.rnbdj at gmail.com Sat Apr 11 10:42:37 2009 From: rakesh.rnbdj at gmail.com (Rakesh Iyer) Date: Sat, 11 Apr 2009 10:42:37 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Fwd: interesting facts In-Reply-To: <6b79f1a70904102157l57398c31r215f2ef91edeb0c6@mail.gmail.com> References: <002601c9b9c7$0755e530$0201a8c0@limo> <6b79f1a70904100358y4299e1d3p715dc3aef750b469@mail.gmail.com> <341380d00904100554o750ef5efgc943a341d73e2ec0@mail.gmail.com> <341380d00904100555o1af61e9x57996cc88adb67f@mail.gmail.com> <6b79f1a70904100634u470fb903w5256c0ecbae2a879@mail.gmail.com> <341380d00904100829w1050a67fn17987a1cd82887b8@mail.gmail.com> <6b79f1a70904102157l57398c31r215f2ef91edeb0c6@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: During cricket matches, our people raise flags of different nations, including that of Pakistan as well. Shouldn't that be opposed too? Secondly, assuming that the flag is indeed Pakistani (I am not sure how to look at this matter, so assuming), whta further action was taken by the police there? What did the district collector, the state govt and the central govt do? Why is the raising of Pakistani flag wrong, if I may ask? If I tomorrow raise a Malaysian or a South African flag, people would hardly bother, but if it's a Pakistani flag, people raise a hue and cry. Why? Is the raising of Pakistani flag a sign of loyalty to Pakistan? If that's the case, why should Indians living in England support India, for when they are English citizens? Why should they raise their Indian flag? Shouldn't they support the English cricket team? And going by your argument, aren't Indians anti-English? And yet, it's the very same community whom we expect to support our cricket players when they play cricket. Why? Aren't we also a part of this anti-English nation campaign as well? Neither has anybody talked about the follow-up action of the govt and pointed out deficiencies/negligence/good doings in it, nor has anybody pointed out the reason as to why this flag raising is wrong. Please do enlighten me on this. As for the NDA rule having more terror attacks, I would say that this figure is more based I think on including the terror attacks in Kashmir. One can say that the situation in Kashmir was much better during the UPA regime (probably the fruits of peace process, non-violent demonstration culture across the entire state of J & K, and also some change due to the 'healing process' of Mufti Sayeed, or other possible reasons may be there.). My understanding is that both UPA and NDA are incompetent of stopping the terror brigade from here. After all, it's the intelligence which cracks modules, not politicians like Advani or Sonia Gandhi or Modi. And while Shivraj Patil may have been lax, the terrorists don't have any strategic interest to attack India for now primarily because diplomatic pressure on Pakistani state creates problems for ISI if they conduct another terror attack. As for the NDA, they started a peace process which resulted in terror network spreading across India, and which was followed by the UPA. I am not saying the peace process is wrong, but modules should have worked effectively in the short run. At the same time, the governments should have made efforts to sort out the feelings like Muslim appeasement and Hindu tyranny running amongst a section of Hindus and Muslims respectively. Possible steps could have been bringing further conversation between the people living in ghettoes, a common public based education system, and certainly a uniform civil code based on principles enshrined in Constitution of India which could have ensured that the clergy can't decide the fate of the common people. It is here that the UPA has failed. The NDA failed most miserably by allowing Gujarat. And it's the same Gujarat which is used as a justification now to have these terror blasts in India. Intelligence tapping is a short term solution; the long term goal lies in creating a society based on values and ideals in resonance with those enshrined in the Constitution of India, as well as based on reason, natural law and principles of justice. And if we don't do that, Hindutva and Indian Mujahideen terror is what in store for us, and we deserve it. Make no mistake about it, if we dont' change our society, howsoever much we may not agree, we deserve these terror attacks. Regards Rakesh From 2tahamehmood at googlemail.com Sat Apr 11 10:59:30 2009 From: 2tahamehmood at googlemail.com (Taha Mehmood) Date: Sat, 11 Apr 2009 06:29:30 +0100 Subject: [Reader-list] Fwd: interesting facts In-Reply-To: <6b79f1a70904102157l57398c31r215f2ef91edeb0c6@mail.gmail.com> References: <002601c9b9c7$0755e530$0201a8c0@limo> <6b79f1a70904100358y4299e1d3p715dc3aef750b469@mail.gmail.com> <341380d00904100554o750ef5efgc943a341d73e2ec0@mail.gmail.com> <341380d00904100555o1af61e9x57996cc88adb67f@mail.gmail.com> <6b79f1a70904100634u470fb903w5256c0ecbae2a879@mail.gmail.com> <341380d00904100829w1050a67fn17987a1cd82887b8@mail.gmail.com> <6b79f1a70904102157l57398c31r215f2ef91edeb0c6@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <49E02ABA.4050807@gmail.com> Dear All With regards to the ongoing discussion, I would like to share with you, a text on the history of communal riots with respect to India. This research paper by B Rajeshwari was published by Institute of Peace and Conflict Studies in 2004. In this paper, B Rajeshwari has painstakingly compiled the data in seven different categories, which are as follows- year, location, communities/organization involved / reasons, causalities, Inquiries commissions , Results and remarks. Unfortunately due to formatting restrictions, I could not copy the whole paper. You may access the same at- http://se1.isn.ch/serviceengine/FileContent?serviceID=47&fileid=0997BD53-9487-85BA-AE5B-18AD1F62851E&lng=en Warm regards Taha Communal Riots in India A Chronology (1947-2003) B Rajeshwari Communal riots have become a distinct feature of communalism in India. Whenever conflicting groups from two different religions, which are self –conscious communities, clash, it results in a communal riot. An event is identified as a communal riot if (a) there is violence, and (b) two or more communally identified groups confront each other or members of the other group at some point during the violence.1 The reason for such a clash could be superficial and trivial, though underlying them are deeper considerations of political representation, control of and access to resources and power. There have been many incidents of riots recorded during the course of British rule and even before that. For example: In Ahmedabad there were riots in 1714, 1715, 1716 and 1750. But according to Bipan Chandra, in his book “Communalism in Modern India”, communal tension and riots began to occur only in the last quarter of the 19th century, but they did not occur in India on any significant scale till 1946-472. Before that, the maximum communal rioting took place during 1923-26. A clear relationship between communal riots and politics was established for the first time in 1946, when the Muslim League gave its direct action call on August 16, 1946. 3 This chronology reveals that communal riots are not caused spontaneously and also that they are rarely caused by religious animosity. They arise due to conflicting political interests, which are often linked to economic interests. There is a significant change in the pattern of communal riots since the 1990s, which could be noticed in the later part of this chronology. This brings forth the shifts that have occurred in the nature of communal riots in India. Moreover, the aim is to underline that religion in most of the cases is not the reason why communal riots occur. The reason for the occurrence of communal violence has been different in the two different phases. During the time of partition, it was the clash of political interests of the elite of two different communities which resulted in communal riots.4 But, from the 1960s till the late 1980s, the local political and economic factors played a very important role in instigating riots. The emergence of Hindutva politics in the last two decades has been a cause of communal riots in this phase where the local factors have also helped in instigating riots. Communal riots that took place from the 1960s to the 1980s follow a particular pattern. They have mostly occurred in urban towns which are either industrial belts or trading centers with the economy largely based on a particular occupation. Most of these places had a considerable percentage of Muslim population whose political or economic interests clashed with those of the 1 Ashtosh Varshney, Ethnic Violence and Civic Life, (New Haven : Yale University Press, 2002), p.309 2 Bipan Chandra, Communalism in Modern India, (New Delhi: Vikas Publishing Home, 1984), Pp 4 3 Ibid, 6 4 Asghar Ali Engineer, “Gujarat Riots in the Light of the History of Communal Violence,” Economic and Political Weekly, December 14, 2002, pp. 5047-5054 - 2 - Hindus. Moreover, the major riots occurred when the Congress was in power in these states or during the short and uncertain phase of the Janata Party coalition rule at the Centre. Riots in this phase might have occurred in the villages or rural areas like the Biharsharif riots, but they have often remained unreported. Therefore it is important to distinguish this phase from the 1990s during which the BJP and its sister organizations have been active in instigating communal riots. Communal violence since 1990s needs to be seen in the light of the changing political equations in the country. The decline of the Congress and the emergence of the BJP as a strong political force resulted in shifting patterns of communal riots. Communal violence in the last two decades is a result of the manipulation of the religious sentiments of people by the Hindu right-wing organizations for political gains. The politicization of the Mandir-Masjid issue and the subsequent demolition of the Mosque gave the BJP the opportunity to consolidate its vote bank. But in the process the controversy created a communal divide, and frequency of riots also increased during this time. Since partition, never before has one particular incident resulted in the emergence of violence in almost all the states. From the 1960s till 1980 local factors played a very important role in the emergence of riots, but since the late 1980s this trend seems to be changing. Communal violence has always occurred when the BJP has wanted to expand its base. In the recent years the South Indian states, particularly Kerala and Tamilnadu, have also witnessed communal violence and are slowly growing into communally sensitive areas. This is primarily because of the recent entrance of BJP in the political arena of these states. Apart from Godhra, the other incidences of communal violence in the 90s have been minor, yet they cannot be dismissed. These eruptions of communal violence have not been spontaneous, but are organized, and often have the support of the local administrations. The state support to riots is a long established feature in India, yet the state has never been such an active participant in the violence before the Gujarat riots. Communal violence has entered a new phase with the Christians and members of other minority religions being made the victims of planned attacks. Communal riots in this decade have been both urban and rural features, but the extent of damage is always greater in the thriving centers of trade and commerce. Tribal population in the rural areas is being forced to get involved in the attacks on Christians and Muslims by bringing them within the Hindutva framework. Apart from economic reasons, the call for Hindu unity which is primarily a means to achieve political advantage is the main source for communal violence in this decade. Godhra was indeed the first major communal riot that got such a wide media coverage particularly from the satellite channels. Therefore the media now needs to be more responsible, considering the influence that it can have over the masses. It is time that the media stopped any kind of biased reporting as it can further encourage the communal elements to instigate the masses. Political parties have always had a hand in instigating and exploiting communal violence so as to meet their electoral interests. Though communal riots are condemned in various quarters, there is still complete inaction both from the administration and the ruling governments in many states. Though religious festivals and processions are generally the starting points of communal riots, still sufficient security is not provided during these times. There is also not much response - 3 - against incidents of communal violence from the civil society. Till the time the political parties which instigate communal riots are voted to power, the incentives to combat communalism will not be able to develop fully. From c.anupam at gmail.com Sat Apr 11 11:10:46 2009 From: c.anupam at gmail.com (anupam chakravartty) Date: Sat, 11 Apr 2009 11:10:46 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] (PRIVATE) Fw: From Communists & forgiveness to Kashmir In-Reply-To: <367008.36841.qm@web57206.mail.re3.yahoo.com> References: <367008.36841.qm@web57206.mail.re3.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <341380d00904102240j6552e35ftd3adc80758131dd5@mail.gmail.com> Dear Pawan, I recieved your mail. would reply shortly. thanks anupam On 4/9/09, Kshmendra Kaul wrote: > > Dear Anupam > > Apologies for this intrusion into your privacy. > > I was wondering whether you received the below reproduced posting from me. > > I would look forward to your comments, in agreement Or disagreement Or as > correction of information /perception. > > K > > --- On *Tue, 4/7/09, Kshmendra Kaul * wrote: > > > From: Kshmendra Kaul > Subject: [Reader-list] From Communists & forgiveness to Kashmir > To: "sarai list" , "anupam chakravartty" < > c.anupam at gmail.com> > Date: Tuesday, April 7, 2009, 8:03 PM > > Dear Anupam > > Some points I would request you to think about. > > 1. The 'battle' in Kashmir is rooted in and consequent to the > "Aazadi" call. It is only the Muslims who subscribe to that > "Freedom" call. Not all Muslims of J&K but only some of them. > Many of such Muslims are from the Kashmir Division of J&K. > > Unless you disagree with this, would it not be appropriate to recognise this > "Aazadi" movement as a 'communal' or rather Islamist > movement? > > 2. We could see justification for such an Islamist (communal) "Aazdi" > movement if we could establish that post 1947 there has been a repression of > Muslims in J&K or even Kashmir specifically. Can we establish and confirm > that? > > 3. When Pakistan ventured with Operation Gibraltar against India in 1965, it > intended to 'liberate' (read include into Pakistan), at the very least > the Kashmir Division. It presumed support from the local Muslims. It did not > receive that. Pakistan has never forgiven the Kashmiri Muslims for that. It > would suggest though that between 1947 and 1965 there was no such > 'repression' of Kashmiri Muslims that they would welcome 'Pakistan > the Liberator'. > > 4. What happened in the next 24 years after 1965 that led to the 1989 revolt > against India. For one 1972 (creation of Bangladesh happened). Did Pakistan > alter it's "liberation of Kashmir" strategies? > > 5. 1987 saw the formation of the Muslim United Front (MUF). Please note the > word "Muslim". Was this an instigated by Pakistan political > formation or is this what had become of the much talked about > "syncreticity" of Kashmir? You might also want to look into the > constituents of MUF and the history of their political > positions. > > 6. If we take note of a few significant steps that were undertaken in J&K > Post-1947, it would be further difficult to find any justification for the > Islamist (communal) "Aazadi" movement: > > - Specificity accorded in the inclusion of J&K into India by Article 370 > of the Indian Constitution. Protecting the demographic make-up of J&K. > > - Agrarian Reforms giving Land to the Tiller, where, other than in rare > exceptions it was the Muslims who benefited. > > - Pro-Rata allocation of 'seats' on the basis of 'Religion' in > Professional Colleges (10%allocated under Open-Merit) where again > overwhelmingly if not totally it benefited Muslims. > > 7. One could not call the "Aazadi" movement an Ethnicity driven > movement either since there are at least 4 major ethnic groups in J&K. > > It is a battle for sure but not a 'communal' battle. The battle is > against a 'communal' "Aazadi" movement. > > That said, I would join you and your artist friends in questioning the wisdom > of the policies followed by the "State" in J&K. I also have no > hesitation in condemning and (as an Indian citizen) declaring totally > unacceptable the Human Rights violations indulged in by the Security Forces. > > > Kshmendra > > > --- On Mon, 4/6/09, anupam chakravartty wrote: > > yes sir, sure i would have love to learn all about the political turncoats > like you who justify all their actions by changing their political attire > like a bollywood star. but it doesnt suit my taste. although, at least you > are honest that you shifted allegiances for your own cause. i never said i > disrespect the cause of kashmiris especially those who were displaced. but > it is unfortunate, like you, several of them have been misguided to believe > that it is a communal battle. but there are voices independent of these > communal ideas. i was in jammu art college for a month and spoke to several > artists following various faiths. without being biased towards the human > rights abuse in kashmir and cause of the kashmiris who have been displaced, > they were all united against the state policies in dealing with kashmir. > > they did not understand the communal side of the kashmir conflict. they > refused to. they were small in numbers, slightly whimsical about their works > but one voice from jammu and kashmir. i guess that was real. i would love > learn more from them instead of someone trying to educate me about where the > political parties are placed in the ideological spectrum of this country. > > thanks again for saying learn > anupam > > > > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with subscribe in > the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> > > > From naeem.mohaiemen at gmail.com Sat Apr 11 12:28:51 2009 From: naeem.mohaiemen at gmail.com (Naeem Mohaiemen) Date: Sat, 11 Apr 2009 12:58:51 +0600 Subject: [Reader-list] BANGLADESH: Ey Poth Amadero/Road Is Ours As Well Message-ID: If you are in Dhaka, come join this event today @ 4pm. Starting at National Museum and then going to Rabindra Sarobar. Bring a bicycle if you have one. Ey Poth Amadero/Road Is Ours As Well The Road always did belong to us, yet why don’t we embrace it more often? With the constant worry of safety, traffic, road conditions, eve teasers and random mishaps it’s not very easy for woment to walk the roads of Dhaka, yet it’s part of her basic rights. To reassure those rights, to reinvent that feeling of physical liberation come join us for “Ey Poth Amadero”event in front of the national museum on April 11th at 4:00 pm. We will run/jog/walk and bike around 3 kilometers ending at Rabindra Sarabar where we will celebrate being human, being women, being men and our roads with some thoughts and some wishes and songs by Anusheh and Krishnokoli. As part of a larger campaign for dignity for women in the streets, Drishtipat Bangladesh produced a series of write ups in local media. They are below Prothom Alo - Shamim Azad Ei Poth Amadero - Shobjanta Ei Poth Amadero - Saimon R-e-s-p-e-c-t - Zafar Sobhan Claiming Our Ground - Shabnam Nadiya Walk down the street with your eyes down - Jahanara Nuri Frogs and Snakes — Iffat Nawaz Take Back The Streets — Hana Shams Ahmed Street Defenders — Naeem Mohaiemen http://unheardvoice.net/blog/2009/04/10/ei-poth-amadero/ From vashsand at hotmail.com Sat Apr 11 14:40:18 2009 From: vashsand at hotmail.com (Sandeep) Date: Sat, 11 Apr 2009 11:10:18 +0200 Subject: [Reader-list] FW: Seize the moment In-Reply-To: <49DFD478.1060503@gmail.com> References: <49DFD478.1060503@gmail.com> Message-ID: Dear Taha what i meant by "bit soft but ok" was that i found article bit superficial. it never touches the main "reasons" behind this communal madness, which are to be found in in 1920s if not even further back (p.s our discussion around Nandy`s article). In India there was never a open honest discussion around historical dimension of hindu muslim relations. it was either glorification of great ashoka and great akbar or just idotic denial of either Aryan migration theory or equally idiotic denial of Islam was not spread by coercion in India but by sufis. Leaving aside crackpots who claim human race was born in Lahore (i mean people who deny aryan migration theory without any evidence). Coming back to islamic rule in india, much has written about it. If there was no coercion why did a whole lot of upper caste/class hindus converted to islam? U still find lot of randhvas, rathores etc as surnames among muslims! if not to ease up their way into social ladder?. These questions are never properly adressed by liberals/leftists. There is denial mode about Islams past and i dont mean that islams role in india or esltwhere was only regressive but nor was it a rose garden. F.ex why dont any old Zarthustra temples to be found any more in iran, afganistan etc. I think first step towards honest discussion would be admittence from not only upper caste hindus that they have opressed lower caste and tribal ppl of South Asia but also from Muslims too that islamic rule wasnt democratic it was feudal and religious coercion was also a part of it. Today most europeans admit that colonialism/imperialism and even christianization of europe was bloody so why can`t muslims also start doing that! P.S. i think spreding of hinduism in south asia was not very peaceful either but i havent come across any study around it. In nutshell i want to say that whatever we are our forefathers/mothers were once oppressors, some were worse than others but that might be matter of chance and opportunity. So "es hamam main ham sabh nange hain" unless we admit it theres bound to be conflict. Use of word soft..i dont like the phenomenon soft ..neither in romance nor in public life i prefer to be passionate. And im not fan of RSS or anybody else in whole political spectrum. By the way did u noticed in anti-americanism of RSS chief, he sounded like any common Leftist. Cheers Sandeep > Date: Sat, 11 Apr 2009 00:21:28 +0100 > From: 2tahamehmood at googlemail.com > To: vashsand at hotmail.com > CC: reader-list at sarai.net > Subject: Re: [Reader-list] Seize the moment > > Dear Sandeep > > Could you please elaborate on your, 'bit soft but ok', remark, in a > sense that, what do you mean by it? More specifically I would be > interested in knowing your views on the word 'soft'. For in the last > five years when Congress was in power, the word 'soft' was used on many > occasions by the likes of BJP to provide a general description of the > ruling dispensation. This is diametrically opposite to a view which > conjures up when we say-'hard', a word, which many in BJP would like to > associate. This word resonates even in the speeches of the RSS. For > instance, I was particularly appalled to hear the speech of Mohan > Bagwat, the newly selected RSS boss, wherein on numerous occasions he > uses Sanskritized words which could be roughly translated to the word > 'hard', to describe the tasks which RSS has to do, the decisions which > RSS has to take and so on. ( you may access this speech on the RSS > website- http://www.rss.org/ ). This speech was given on the occasion of > Sarsanghchalak Pranam on the evening of 21st March in Nagpur. I was > deeply shocked to hear RSS boss, Bhagwat, utter a blatant lie, which was > completely unconstitutional that, 'India is a Hindu Rashtra'. For him, > and unfortunately for many others who are charmed by RSS's ideology, a > view that India must only belong to adherents of one particular religion > is a 'hard' fact. > > with warm regards > > Taha > > > > > > > Sandeep wrote: > > bit soft but ok > > > > > > > > http://www.india-seminar.com/2009/593/593_javed_anand.htm > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > _________________________________________________________________ Drag n’ drop—Get easy photo sharing with Windows Live™ Photos. http://www.microsoft.com/windows/windowslive/products/photos.aspx From vashsand at hotmail.com Sat Apr 11 16:14:57 2009 From: vashsand at hotmail.com (Sandeep) Date: Sat, 11 Apr 2009 12:44:57 +0200 Subject: [Reader-list] Pardon Us, If This Is The Ram Rajya By Aleem Faizee (Countercurrents.org) Message-ID: its posing question in a wrong manner. yes ideal state in india or for that matter in whole world is Ram Rajya. who wont kick out his wife for fourteen yrs to behold his place as president, prime -minister etc. Its empty rhetoric it should be met with ridicule not gandhian moralism. we hindus hv long tradition of making jokes of our own gods (puranas are full of it), let it continue. cheers sandeep _________________________________________________________________ Show them the way! Add maps and directions to your party invites. http://www.microsoft.com/windows/windowslive/products/events.aspx From rakesh.rnbdj at gmail.com Sat Apr 11 16:35:21 2009 From: rakesh.rnbdj at gmail.com (Rakesh Iyer) Date: Sat, 11 Apr 2009 16:35:21 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Pardon Us, If This Is The Ram Rajya By Aleem Faizee (Countercurrents.org) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Dear Sandeep (and all) I agree that Ram did not do a great thing by banishing Sita. But what that story brings out is someone who was in sync with principles/dharma. May be the principles on which a society should be based may vary, but at least people should follow principles once deciding they are right. Here we have situation where people can raise mandir-masjid issue at any convenience or even corruption issue, and the only principle (if it is there) is only self-service, which is just selfishness and no principle at all. That is not the way any nation can prosper (forget about becoming a superpower). We should first become a humane, just and principled nation, rather than first practising selfish politics of atrocious kind at lower levels, and then taking it onto the international stage to use institutions and organizations just instrumentally. Like we have done substantially in the past. (Not that others don't do it, but that doesn't mean they are right.) Regards (and cheers) Rakesh From kshmendra2005 at yahoo.com Sat Apr 11 19:52:32 2009 From: kshmendra2005 at yahoo.com (Kshmendra Kaul) Date: Sat, 11 Apr 2009 07:22:32 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Reader-list] What after MNIC? The MIND, the final frontier. Message-ID: <758283.38963.qm@web57208.mail.re3.yahoo.com> Dear Taha   With this kind of a peurile response, you have only stripped off from yourself the veneer of intellect and revealed yourself as quite a pathetic character.   What is worse, your attempt at humour, even when accompanied by the use of punctuating (and very nervous sounding) "lol" becomes all the more bizzare when your (stand alone) post does not give any indication of what it refers to.   Kshmendra --- On Thu, 4/9/09, Taha Mehmood <2tahamehmood at googlemail.com> wrote: From: Taha Mehmood <2tahamehmood at googlemail.com> Subject: Re: [Reader-list] What after MNIC? The MIND, the final frontier. To: kshmendra2005 at yahoo.com Cc: "reader-list" Date: Thursday, April 9, 2009, 9:22 PM Dear Kshmendra I think the only thing that comes to my mind is a Hindi maxim which goes on like this- Khisyani billi khamba noche!!! lol Taha From kshmendra2005 at yahoo.com Sat Apr 11 19:57:53 2009 From: kshmendra2005 at yahoo.com (Kshmendra Kaul) Date: Sat, 11 Apr 2009 07:27:53 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Reader-list] What after MNIC? The MIND, the final frontier. In-Reply-To: <49DE23CC.9080305@gmail.com> Message-ID: <814690.5846.qm@web57207.mail.re3.yahoo.com> Dear Taha   Either my ability to express myself in English is atrociously inadequate, or your understanding of the language is extremely poor. I see no other reason for what otherwise appears as a persistent compulsion of yours to give such a spin on what has been stated by me that you completely alter the meaning and import of words.   Against the points now raised by you, let me attempt conveying my comments with greater clarity.   1.a. There are quite a number of posting on this List, by you, on the MNIC issue.   1.b. These posting of yours regarding MNIC have predominantly been reproductions of News Items that directly or indirectly refer to the MNIC. Occasionally they have been accompanied by your own comments. There have been other postings by you regarding MNIC which have contained only your comments.   1.c When I was drawing your attention to " ..... your own postings on this List regarding MNIC." I was referring to the complete contents of your postings including the reproduced News Items plus your own comments and NOT your own comments alone. Isn't that the fairer understanding of the term "your postings"?   1.d Similarly, when I said that "One of the premises on which the support for MNIC is based is that it will help weed out terrorists." and made reference to " ..... your own postings on this List regarding MNIC.", I was again referring to the complete contents of your postings including the reproduced News Items plus your own comments and NOT your own comments alone. Isn't that the fairer understanding of the term "your postings"?   1.e There was no question of suggesting that you Taha either 'support the MNIC' or that you personally hold a premise that the MNIC "will help weed out terrorists". Your 'bowed hands .. grateful" (whatever that means) sarcasm not withstanding, I have diligently been perusing your postings regarding MNIC and I would be dishonest and would be  misrepresenting the facts if I ascribed such positions to you.   1.f There does seem to be this problem of either (my) lacking in expression or (your) lacking in understanding so you can only take my word for it. Or you can accuse me of dishonesty. Which is also fine with me.    2.a. If perchance you have understood or accepted (in faith) my comments above, it would be needless for me to explain your misunderstanding of my having ascribed to Taha the belief that "MNIC will help weed out terrorists" or holding that premise for "support for MNIC" or being in "support of MNIC"   2.b You would hopefully have understood that when I wrote  "One of the premises on which the support for MNIC is based is that it  will help weed out terrorists" it is something brought out in your postings regarding MNIC and does not suggest it as being your position.   2.c I did clarify this in the earlier posting too but you chose to ignore it. Such a premise does exist in the country and it has directly or indirectly been brought out in your postings.   2.d. In the link of your posting that I had provided, you have commented along the following lines:   - issue of infiltration and security on the Indian Border.   - political class of our country hell bent ....create a particular perception of fear and security and dole National Identity Card as the sole solution   - don't want to go in for a blame-the-politician- argument for our social ills, because certainly terrorist attacks happen   - insofar as the issue of Multiple Purpose National Identity is concerned, the consensus building exercise for the issuance of the card seems to tread multiple lines of argument   - .... Kargil War occurs-for which intrusion is blamed-fencing of border areas is peddled as a solution ......distribution of identity cards is forwarded as a second option ..... Premise seems to be that MINC will alleviate intrusion of all illegal foreigners   - 'Terror' Strikes- Islamic 'terrorists' blamed-since one cannot differentiate between a Pakistani Muslim from a Bangladeshi Muslim from an Indian Muslim from an Indian Hindu, identification of all people is peddled as a solution- (Separating wheat from the chaff argument) Premise seems to be that 'Good' Muslims would be separated from 'Bad' Muslims.   2.e Hopefully Taha, you will understand from the above 'guide words' from your posting that there was no misrepresenting of you when I said " Doesnt a premise exist in the country that the "MNIC will help weed out terrorists"? Have you yourself not spoken about this premise. That does not mean that you subscribe to it and neither have I attributed it as so."   While trying to carefully structure this response to you I again wondered whether I was wasting your time and mine.   Seeing the 'spin' you have given to my words, this one thing I am convinced about though, that "Either my ability to express myself in English is atrociously inadequate, or your understanding of the language is extremely poor."     Kshmendra    --- On Thu, 4/9/09, Taha Mehmood <2tahamehmood at googlemail.com> wrote: From: Taha Mehmood <2tahamehmood at googlemail.com> Subject: Re: [Reader-list] What after MNIC? The MIND, the final frontier. To: kshmendra2005 at yahoo.com, "reader-list" Date: Thursday, April 9, 2009, 10:05 PM Dear Khsmendra Thank you for your post. Please allow me to reply with utmost sincerity the most well thought out and valid points raised in your post. 1. In the mail below, you state-Did I say that Taha supports the MNIC or that Taha holds the premise that MNIC will weed out terrorists. In the mail, below the mail below, you state- I would have presumed that you have read your own postings on this List regarding MNIC. One of the premises on which the support for MNIC is based is that it will help weed out terrorists. - So it seems that YES you did mean, inadvertently perhaps, that I support an outrageous premise the MNIC would be used to help weed out terrorist, since there seems to be no other person, in the recent past, who have consistently posted on and about MNIC as I have. And for the sake of clarity please allow me to state -I have never, I REPEAT, I HAVE NEVER ever, uttered that MNIC could be used to weed out terrorists. That would deplorable on my part. 2. You state- Doesnt a premise exist in the country that the "MNIC will help weed out terrorists"? Have you yourself not spoken about this premise. That does not mean that you subscribe to it and neither have I attributed it as so. For confirmation : http://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/2009-January/017420.html I most humbly thank you for providing the link and I would be very grateful if you could kindly go through the post and then share it with members of the reader list, which reasonably proves, that I have indeed written a fantastically imagined premise that 'MNIC is indeed needed to weed out terrorists'. On earlier occasions, I have made everyone known that in so far as my position on MNIC is concerned being an Indian citizen, if my government choose to provide for a MNIC card, then I will also have one. But please rest assured in all these four years, had I ever read, sensed or concluded by a cursory or a detailed reading of papers related to MNIC, that MNIC is also going to be used to weed out terrorists, then, I would have used every conceivable way to reasonably argue against such a card. The reason being thus- A statement which contends that, 'MNIC will be used to weed out terrorists' assumes, that it is known to the members of the state, who all will reasonably come under the category of 'Terrorist'. Thus any person who satisfies all the criteria of being a 'Terrorist' may be reasonably granted the status of a 'Terrorist' but as we all know that 'Terrorist' is a highly unclear category. There does not exist a clear definition of the term. There is a lot of scope for categorical slippage. Therefore no government agency anywhere in this world has thus far made an audaciously foolish proposal to capture 'Terrorists' while using a biometric National identity card. Although it may not be ruled that as far as the realm of fantasy is concerned there might be exist many deranged officials out there who might be thinking of subjecting the national identity card regime to such a use. It gives me utmost satisfaction to know that there exists at least one person on this list who is a regular reader of my posts, I, with, bowed hands am grateful to you, however, I think, it would bring me all the more joy, if you could, not only read but deduce reasonably, my rather inarticulate sketches on the proposed Multiple purpose National Identity Card. Warm regards Taha Kshmendra Kaul wrote: > Dear Taha > If past experiences with you were not enough and I needed confirmation on the bizzare nature of your personality, you have just provided it. > You obviously did not read properly what I wrote and it appears that you do not read what you yourself post. > My words were "One of the premises on which the support for MNIC is based is that it > will help weed out terrorists. A physical identity mapping." > Did I say that Taha supports the MNIC or that Taha holds the premise that MNIC will weed out terrorists. Read properly what I have written and then decide whether you are justified in the content and tone of your response to me. > Doesnt a premise exist in the country that the "MNIC will help weed out terrorists"? Have you yourself not spoken about this premise. That does not mean that you subscribe to it and neither have I attributed it as so. For confirmation : http://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/2009-January/017420.html > Your responses to my postings seem to be triggered by some preconcieved notions about me and prejudices aghainst me that prevent you from thinking or speaking rationally. Your problem, not mine. > I must be one of the very few people on this List who read every single one of your MNIC postings. Read not scan through. MNIC fascinates me even as it disturbs me. > I would have further commented on the co-relationships that do exist in the premises regarding 'weeding out terrorists' in both the MNIC and the "human cognitive' technology, but you Sir are a Closed Mind. Why waste your time and mine. > Kshmendra. > > > --- On *Thu, 4/9/09, Taha Mehmood /<2tahamehmood at googlemail.com>/* wrote: > > From: Taha Mehmood <2tahamehmood at googlemail.com> > Subject: Re: [Reader-list] What after MNIC? The MIND, the final > frontier. > To: kshmendra2005 at yahoo.com > Cc: "reader-list" , "Taha Mehmood" > <2tahamehmood at googlemail.com> > Date: Thursday, April 9, 2009, 6:47 PM > > Dear Kshmendra > > Your reply surprises me even more, for in my postings not only have I never > mentioned anywhere that MNIC would help weed our terrorists but also that, had I > mentioned any such preposterous a thing, then I would have certainly reflected > the said issue in detail. > > I am especially observant of the ways in which the social category of a > 'terrorist' is formed. > > The reason why it surprises me is because of all the persons who might have > interpreted my posting I would not have ever imagined you to read them in such a > manner. > > Further more in all my postings, I have tried to raise questions which might > help us think through the most fundamental question- what do we mean by MNIC. In > this regard I have time and again tried to illustrate by the way of specific > examples and by broad theoretical conceptualizations that it appears as if, the notion central to MNIC card , like that of identity is fundamentally > unresolved. > > I find the idea of MNIC with its unresolved core quite a curious case and to > equate it to this seemingly bizzare technology is indeed uncalled for. Therefore > could I hope that in all future forwards to this list, you would exercise some > restraint before drawing any unwarranted co-relationships? > > Regards > > Taha > > > Kshmendra Kaul wrote: > > Dear Taha > > Your question surprises me. I would have presumed that you have read your > own postings on this List regarding MNIC. > > One of the premises on which the support for MNIC is based is that it > will help weed out terrorists. A physical identity mapping. > > This reported attempt to develop "human cognitive" technology > also presumes that it will help weed out terrorists. A Mind mapping. > > Kshmendra > > --- On *Thu, 4/9/09, Taha Mehmood /<2tahamehmood at googlemail.com>/* > wrote: > > > From: Taha Mehmood <2tahamehmood at googlemail.com> > > Subject: Re: [Reader-list] What after MNIC? The MIND, the final > > frontier. > > To: kshmendra2005 at yahoo.com, "reader-list" > > > Date: Thursday, April 9, 2009, 12:18 AM > > > Dear Kshmendra (and All) > > > This is with respect to your post. Could you please explain what has > the > > development of this new technology got to do with National Identity > Cards > > because on the face to it, they seem like two un-related events. I > would be more > > than happy to benefit from your insights. > > > Regards > > > Taha > > > > > > From 2tahamehmood at googlemail.com Sat Apr 11 21:04:55 2009 From: 2tahamehmood at googlemail.com (Taha Mehmood) Date: Sat, 11 Apr 2009 16:34:55 +0100 Subject: [Reader-list] What after MNIC? The MIND, the final frontier. In-Reply-To: <758283.38963.qm@web57208.mail.re3.yahoo.com> References: <758283.38963.qm@web57208.mail.re3.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <49E0B89F.3000908@gmail.com> Dear Kshmendra I have never ever claimed to be an 'intellectual' in the first place, nor that it amuses me now that, according to you, I stand exposed. There are times when one does not have to be specific in uttering, all one has to do is to make some nervous sounding noises and the message gets across. I am sorry that you need an explanation on this, because there isn't any. And I would like to believe that my response was apt. I find it hard to respond with more puerility than an idea which would want us to believe that national identity cards could be used to weed out terrorists or that technology is on the way, which could enable us to actually read the mind of terrorists. But now that you have responded, please allow me to come back to the issue of terrorists or terror or terrorism. In this regard please allow me to share with you fragments of a judgment pronounced by a bench comprising of DORAISWAMY RAJU & ARIJIT PASAYAT of the Supreme Court of India. This judgment was with respect to a case pertaining to Nazir Khan and others v/s State of Delhi. The judgment was pronounced on 22nd of August 2003. Salient points of the Judgment are as follows- terrorists have no religion; there is no universal definition of terrorism; in order to prove without doubt that such and such person is a terrorist proper evidence, related to a conspiracy to commit an act which may be ascribed as a terror act, must be examined and evidenced must be conclusivly proven beyond any doubt; conspiracy involves an agreement by two or more persons to commit an unlawful act, evidence gathered to prove such a conspiracy could be either circumstantial or based on confessions; confessions so obtained must be voluntary, Voluntary' means a statement made of the free will and accord of accused, without coercion, whether from fear of any threat of harm, promise, or inducement or any hope of reward. The point being Dear Kshmendra, in order to conclusively establish the identity of a person as a 'Terrorist' one has to follow a proper procedure. Therefore any claim or defense of any such claim which seeks to provide a technology which will help weed out terrorists seem ridiculous. We have to understand that the term 'Terrorist' is a social construct, it is an abstraction, at best one can only subjectively ascertain a person as a terrorist by following a proper procedure at worst one can rhetorically tag persons, peoples as terrorists because of some ulterior motive, machines on the other hand are good at sorting out material or fixed entities or those abstract entities whose definitions are universal. With warm regards Taha 1. Terrorists have no religion, no concept of communal or social harmony and value for human life. 2.As noted at the outset, it is not possible to precisely define "terrorism". Finding a definition of "terrorism" has haunted countries for decades. A first attempt to arrive at an internationally acceptable definition was made under the League of Nations, but the convention drafted in 1937 never came into existence. 3.The UN Member States still have no agreed-upon definition. Terminology consensus would, however, be necessary for a single comprehensive convention on terrorism, which some countries favour in place of the present 12 piecemeal conventions and protocols. The lack of agreement on a definition of terrorism has been a major obstacle to meaningful international countermeasures. Cynics have often commented that one State's "terrorist" is another State's "freedom fighter". If terrorism is defined strictly in terms of attacks on non-military targets, a number of attacks on military installations and soldiers' residences could not be included in the statistics. In order to cut through the Gordian definitional knot, terrorism expert A. Schmid suggested in 1992 in a report for the then UN Crime Branch that it might be a good idea to take the existing consensus on what constitutes a "war crime" as a point of departure. If the core of war crimes - deliberate attacks on civilians, hostage taking and the killing of prisoners - is extended to peacetime, we could simply define acts of terrorism as "peacetime equivalents of war crimes". 4.League of Nations Convention (1937) :"All criminal acts directed against a State along with intended or calculated to create a statute of terror in the minds of particular persons or a group of persons or the general public". 5. Short legal definition proposed by A.P. Schmid to United Nations Crime Branch (1992) : Act of Terrorism = Peacetime Equivalent of War Crime 6. "Terrorism is an anxiety-inspiring of repeated violent action, employed by (semi-) clandestine individual, group or state actors, for idiosyncratic, criminal or political reasons, whereby - in contrast to assassination - the direct targets of violence are not the main targets. The immediate human victims of violence are generally chosen randomly (targets of opportunity) or selectively (representative or symbolic targets) from a target population, and serve as message generators. Threat- and violence-based communication processes between terrorist (organization), (imperiled) victims, and main targets are used to manipulate the main target (audience (s)), turning it into a target of terror, a target of demands, or a target of attention, depending on whether intimidation, coercion, or propaganda is primarily sought" (Schmid, 1988). 7. Terrorism is the use or threatened use of force designed to bring about political change. - Brian Jenkins 8. Terrorism constitutes the illegitimate use of force to achieve a political objective when innocent people are targeted. - Walter Laqueur. 9. Terrorism is the premeditated, deliberate, systematic murder, mayhem, and threatening of the innocent to create fear and intimidation in order to gain a political or tactical advantage, usually to influence an audience. - James M. Poland 10. Terrorism is the unlawful use or threat of violence against persons or property to further political or social objectives. It is usually intended to intimidate or coerce a government, individuals or groups, or to modify their behavior or politics. - Vice-President's Task Force, 1986 11. Terrorism is the unlawful use of force or violence against persons or property to intimidate or coerce a government, the civilian population, or any segment thereof, in furtherance of political or social objectives. - FBI Definition 12. No doubt in the case of conspiracy there cannot be any direct evidence. The ingredients of offence are that there should be an agreement between persons who are alleged to conspire and the said agreement should be for doing an illegal act or for doing illegal means an act which itself may not be illegal. Therefore, the essence of criminal conspiracy is an agreement to do an illegal act and such an agreement can be proved either by direct evidence or by circumstantial evidence or by both, and it is a matter of common experience that direct evidence to prove conspiracy is rarely available. Therefore, the circumstances proved before, during and after the occurrence have to be considered to decide about the complicity of the accused. 13. "Conspiracy consists in the agreement of two or more persons to do an unlawful act, or to do a lawful act by unlawful means. It is an indictable offence at common law, the punishment for which is imprisonment or fine or both in the discretion of the Court. 14. Privacy and secrecy are more characteristics of a conspiracy, than of a loud discussion in an elevated place open to public view. Direct evidence in proof of a conspiracy is seldom available, offence of conspiracy can be proved by either direct or circumstantial evidence. It is not always possible to give affirmative evidence about the date of the formation of the criminal conspiracy, about the persons who took part in the formation of the conspiracy, about the object, which the objectors set before themselves as the object of conspiracy, and about the manner in which the object of conspiracy is to be carried out, all this is necessarily a matter of inference. 15. The provisions of Section 120-A and 120-B, IPC have brought the law of conspiracy in India in line with the English Law by making the overt act unessential when the conspiracy is to commit any punishable offence. The English Law on this matter is well settled. Russell on crime (12 Ed.Vol.I, p.202) may be usefully noted- "The gist of the offence of conspiracy then lies, not in doing the act, or effecting the purpose for which the conspiracy is formed, nor in attempting to do them, nor in inciting others to do them, but in the forming of the scheme or agreement between the parties, agreement is essential. Mere knowledge, or even discussion, of the plan is not, per se, enough." 16. Coleridge, J. while summing up the case to Jury in Regina v. Murphy [(1837) 173 ER 502 at p. 508] states:"I am bound to tell you, that although the common design is the root of the charge, it is not necessary to prove that these two parties came together and actually agreed in terms to have this common design and to pursue it by common means, and so to carry it into execution. This is not necessary, because in many cases of the most clearly established conspiracies there are no means of proving any such thing and neither law nor common sense requires that it should be proved. If you find that these two persons pursued by their acts the same object, often by the same means, one performing one part of an act, so as to complete it, with a view to the attainment of the object which they were pursuing, you will be at liberty to draw the conclusion that they have been engaged in a conspiracy to effect that object. The question you have to ask yourselves is, had they this common design, and did they pursue it by these common means the design being unlawful." 17. Conspiracy is conceived as having three elements: (1) agreement; (2) between two or more persons by whom the agreement is effected; and (3) a criminal object, which may be either the ultimate aim of the agreement, or may constitute the means, or one of the means by which that aim is to be accomplished. It is immaterial whether this is found in the ultimate objects. 18. "The very agreement, concert or league is the ingredient of the offence. It is not necessary that all the conspirators must know each and every detail of the conspiracy as long as they are co-participators in the main object of the conspiracy. There may be so many devices and techniques adopted to achieve the common goal of the conspiracy and there may be division of performances in the chain of actions with one object to achieve the real end of which every collaborator must be aware and in which each one of them must be interested. There must be unity of object or purpose but there may be plurality of means sometimes even unknown to one another, amongst the conspirators. In achieving the goal several offences may be committed by some of the conspirators even unknown to the others. The only relevant factor is that all means adopted and illegal acts done must be and purported to be in furtherance of the object of the conspiracy even though there may be sometimes misfire or overshooting by some of the conspirators. 19.The principle therein is that confession must be voluntary. Section 15 of TADA Act also requires the confession to be voluntary. Voluntary means that one who makes it out of his own free will inspired by the sound of his own conscience to speak nothing but the truth. As per Stroud's Judicial Dictionary, 5th Edn., at p.2633 threat means: "It is the essence of a threat that it be made for the purpose of intimidating, or overcoming, the will of the person to whom it is addressed (per Lush, J, Wood v. Bowron (1866) 2 QB 21) cited intimidate." 20. Words and Phrases, permanent edition, Vol.44, p. 622 defines 'voluntary' as:'Voluntary' means a statement made of the free will and accord of accused, without coercion, whether from fear of any threat of harm, promise, or inducement or any hope of reward - State v. Mullin (85NW 2nd 598, 600, 249 lown 10)". 21. In Words and Phrases by John B. Saunders 3rd edition, vol.4, p.401, 'voluntary' is defined as:".....the classic statement of the principle is that of Lord Sumner in Ibrahim v. Regem ( 1914 AC 599) ( at p.609) where he said, "it has long been established as a positive rule of English criminal law that no statement by an accused is admissible in evidence against him unless it is shown by the prosecution to be a voluntary statement, in the sense that it has not been obtained from him either by fear of prejudice or hope of advantage exercise or held out by a person in authority. The principle is as old as Lord Hale". However, in five of the eleven textbooks cited to us ....support is to be found for a narrow and rather technical meaning of the word "voluntary". According to this view, "voluntary" means merely that the statement has not been made in consequence of (i) some promise of advantage or some threat (ii) of a temporal character (iii) held out or made by a person in authority, and (iv) relating to the charge in the sense that it implies that the accused's position in the contemplated proceedings will or may be better or worse according to whether or not the statement is made. R. v. Power [( 1966) 3 All ER 433) ( at pp.454, 455)] per Cantley, V." 22. In Principle and Digest of Law of Evidence, Vol.I, New Edn. By Chief Justice M. Monir, after noticing conflicting views and discussing various authorities, the learned author summarized the position as follows:"The rule may therefore, be stated to be that whereas the evidence in proof of a confession having been made is always to be suspected, the confession, if once proved to have been made and made voluntarily, is one of the most effectual proofs in the law." CASE NO.:Appeal (crl.) 734 of 2003PETITIONER:Nazir Khan and Ors. RESPONDENT: Vs. State of Delhi ATE OF JUDGMENT: 22/08/2003 BENCH:DORAISWAMY RAJU & ARIJIT PASAYAT.JUDGMENT:J U D G M E N T With Death Reference No.(Crl.) No.1 of 2003ANDCRIMINAL APPEAL NO.......(D.14990/2002) From 2tahamehmood at googlemail.com Sat Apr 11 22:04:52 2009 From: 2tahamehmood at googlemail.com (Taha Mehmood) Date: Sat, 11 Apr 2009 17:34:52 +0100 Subject: [Reader-list] What after MNIC? The MIND, the final frontier. In-Reply-To: <814690.5846.qm@web57207.mail.re3.yahoo.com> References: <814690.5846.qm@web57207.mail.re3.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <49E0C6AC.1070506@gmail.com> Dear Kshmendra Neither your ability to express in English is atrociously inadequate nor my understanding of the language is extremely poor. There is no need for you to see reason in my posts, because there seems to be nothing reasonable in what you want to interpret. However, I thank you for the pain that you seem have taken to write a seemingly logical mail but I am sorry to say that your post appears just that, 'seemingly logical'. In my earlier exchanges with you I used to get quite worked up by your generous use of adjectives but now it seems to me, that it is not for no reason that you rely on adjectives so much. Since you have, on many occasions made absolutely clear to the members of this list, about your disapproval for theory, your loathe for detailed discussions, and your impatience for views which dwell on core conceptual formulations, I think one can safely conclude that for you, slandering a person or relying heavily on fallacies like ad hominem are the only rhetorical crutches you have. It is painful, Khsmendra, to see you first utter a stupid thing and then defend it in this manner. But having said that, since you have, I respect your effort, so please allow me to answer the points you have raised. 1.a. There are quite a number of posting on this List, by you, on the MNIC issue. -That's true. 1.b. These posting of yours regarding MNIC have predominantly been reproductions of News Items that directly or indirectly refer to the MNIC. Occasionally they have been accompanied by your own comments. There have been other postings by you regarding MNIC which have contained only your comments. -That's correct. This is in addition to four full length papers, which i have posted on the list before i began posting news articles and other materials. 1.c When I was drawing your attention to " ..... your own postings on this List regarding MNIC." I was referring to the complete contents of your postings including the reproduced News Items plus your own comments and NOT your own comments alone. Isn't that the fairer understanding of the term "your postings"? - I would not like to think so. Because in all those instances when I was forwarding News Items or papers I was in a way doing the job of a researcher. Which is to re-search and collect data. I did not filter out those messages where I had a fundamental disagreement with either the content or the formulation or theoretical assumptions of those messages. So they were not my posts but my forwards and I did not agree to the content or the context of the structure of the argument of the some of the mails yet I forwarded them. 1.d Similarly, when I said that "One of the premises on which the support for MNIC is based is that it will help weed out terrorists." and made reference to " ..... your own postings on this List regarding MNIC.", I was again referring to the complete contents of your postings including the reproduced News Items plus your own comments and NOT your own comments alone. Isn't that the fairer understanding of the term "your postings"? - No that is not a fairer understanding of the term 'your posting'. 1e, 1f, 2a, 2b,2c - Does not apply because of fundamental error of assumption in 1.c and 1d 2.d. In the link of your posting that I had provided, you have commented along the following lines: - issue of infiltration and security on the Indian Border. That's true. I have. - political class of our country hell bent ....create a particular perception of fear and security and dole National Identity Card as the sole solution That's correct. - don't want to go in for a blame-the-politician- argument for our social ills, because certainly terrorist attacks happen That's correct. - insofar as the issue of Multiple Purpose National Identity is concerned, the consensus building exercise for the issuance of the card seems to tread multiple lines of argument That is also right. - .... Kargil War occurs-for which intrusion is blamed-fencing of border areas is peddled as a solution ......distribution of identity cards is forwarded as a second option ..... Premise seems to be that MINC will alleviate intrusion of all illegal foreigners. That is right too. - 'Terror' Strikes- Islamic 'terrorists' blamed-since one cannot differentiate between a Pakistani Muslim from a Bangladeshi Muslim from an Indian Muslim from an Indian Hindu, identification of all people is peddled as a solution- (Separating wheat from the chaff argument) Premise seems to be that 'Good' Muslims would be separated from 'Bad' Muslims. That is also right but isn't it clear that there is one core concept here is citizenship. MNIC is peddled as a token to weed out citizens from non citizens. And in the context of 'Islamic Terror' I was referring to the proposed use of MNIC to weed out an Indian Muslim, who is also a law abiding, tax paying citizen in other words a 'good muslim' versus a 'bad muslim' who wants to harm the idea of India by cloaking himself in Indian identity or citizenship to evade detection. The issue here was same to weed out citizens from non citizens. More ever, 'good muslim' 'bad muslim' was deliberately used as a reference point to the work of Mahmud Mamdani by the same name. Wherein he dwells at length about the ways in which social constructs like 'good muslim' or 'bad muslim' came into being and how these constructs are intricately woven into the discourse of modern nation states and how they prefigure in policies and governmental attitudes, especially when it comes to according religious minorities like muslims the status of citizens. The word 'terrorists' which you have so underlined was used a background to suggest that this is one the ways by which the idea of a national identity card is being proposed. The MNIC is not being proposed to 'weed out terrorists' but it is assumed that 'Pakistani Muslims or Bangladeshi Muslims' are sometimes involved in 'terrorist attacks' hence MNIC could act as a filter to weed out Pakistani or Bangladeshi nationals or citizens. If you want to have more discussions on this then I will be more than happy to respond to your mails. At the same time, I expect with all sincerity some amount reasonableness in discourse. With warm regards Taha kshmendra Kaul wrote: > Dear Taha > > Either my ability to express myself in English is atrociously > inadequate, or your understanding of the language is extremely poor. I > see no other reason for what otherwise appears as a persistent > compulsion of yours to give such a spin on what has been stated by me > that you completely alter the meaning and import of words. > > Against the points now raised by you, let me attempt conveying my > comments with greater clarity. > > 1.a. There are quite a number of posting on this List, by you, on the > MNIC issue. > > 1.b. These posting of yours regarding MNIC have predominantly > been reproductions of News Items that directly or indirectly refer to > the MNIC. Occasionally they have been accompanied by your own > comments. There have been other postings by you regarding MNIC which > have contained only your comments. > > 1.c When I was drawing your attention to " ..... your own postings on > this List regarding MNIC." I was referring to the complete contents of > your postings including the reproduced News Items plus your own > comments and NOT your own comments alone. Isn't that the fairer > understanding of the term "your postings"? > > 1.d Similarly, when I said that "One of the premises on which the > support for MNIC is based is that it will help weed out terrorists." > and made reference to " ..... your own postings on this List regarding > MNIC.", I was again referring to the complete contents of your > postings including the reproduced News Items plus your own comments > and NOT your own comments alone. Isn't that the fairer understanding > of the term "your postings"? > > 1.e There was no question of suggesting that you Taha either 'support > the MNIC' or that you personally hold a premise that the MNIC "will > help weed out terrorists". Your 'bowed hands .. grateful" (whatever > that means) sarcasm not withstanding, I have diligently been perusing > your postings regarding MNIC and I would be dishonest and would be > misrepresenting the facts if I ascribed such positions to you. > > 1.f There does seem to be this problem of either (my) lacking in > expression or (your) lacking in understanding so you can only take my > word for it. Or you can accuse me of dishonesty. Which is also fine > with me. > > 2.a. If perchance you have understood or accepted (in faith) my > comments above, it would be needless for me to explain your > misunderstanding of my having ascribed to Taha the belief that "MNIC > will help weed out terrorists" or holding that premise for "support > for MNIC" or being in "support of MNIC" > > 2.b You would hopefully have understood that when I wrote "One of the > premises on which the support for MNIC is based is that it will help > weed out terrorists" it is something brought out in your postings > regarding MNIC and does not suggest it as being your position. > > 2.c I did clarify this in the earlier posting too but you chose to > ignore it. Such a premise does exist in the country and it has > directly or indirectly been brought out in your postings. > > 2.d. In the link of your posting that I had provided, you have > commented along the following lines: > > - issue of infiltration and security on the Indian Border. > > - political class of our country hell bent ....create a particular > perception of fear and security and dole National Identity Card as the > sole solution > > - don't want to go in for a blame-the-politician- argument for our > social ills, because certainly terrorist attacks happen > > - insofar as the issue of Multiple Purpose National Identity is > concerned, the consensus building exercise for the issuance of the > card seems to tread multiple lines of argument > > - .... Kargil War occurs-for which intrusion is blamed-fencing of > border areas is peddled as a solution ......distribution of identity > cards is forwarded as a second option ..... Premise seems to be that > MINC will alleviate intrusion of all illegal foreigners > > - 'Terror' Strikes- Islamic 'terrorists' blamed-since one cannot > differentiate between a Pakistani Muslim from a Bangladeshi Muslim > from an Indian Muslim from an Indian Hindu, identification of all > people is peddled as a solution- (Separating wheat from the chaff > argument) Premise seems to be that 'Good' Muslims would be separated > from 'Bad' > Muslims. > > 2.e Hopefully Taha, you will understand from the above 'guide words' > from your posting that there was no misrepresenting of you when I said > " Doesnt a premise exist in the country that the "MNIC will help weed > out terrorists"? Have you yourself not spoken about this premise. That > does not mean that you subscribe to it and neither have I attributed > it as so." > > While trying to carefully structure this response to you I again > wondered whether I was wasting your time and mine. > > Seeing the 'spin' you have given to my words, this one thing I am > convinced about though, that "Either my ability to express myself in > English is atrociously inadequate, or your understanding of the > language is extremely poor." > > > Kshmendra > > > From sub_sengupta at yahoo.co.in Sun Apr 12 00:32:01 2009 From: sub_sengupta at yahoo.co.in (subhrodip sengupta) Date: Sun, 12 Apr 2009 00:32:01 +0530 (IST) Subject: [Reader-list] Fw: What after MNIC? The MIND, the final frontier. Message-ID: <623583.17216.qm@web94704.mail.in2.yahoo.com> Isn't there something known as right to privacy. A Wiki analysis told me that marital status, health and residence property and more private information will be made available through a centralised database. Werent many of us dead against strip searching x-ray and other devices, (well one cant escape it lol) but police doing it before your eyes and gazing you,(if not now it'll be very soon at least with non-nationals I guess) day in and day out in the name of national security, well you can not roam about in the streets pick up people in name of  'Verification', the Question I'd put 'Security for Whom?' & who are the specific classes/creeds of people arguing for it and what are their vested interests beyond security per-se? Is India's corruption scenario competent to handle such issues. To be more elaborate I'd remember you for full 4 months the NIC's top priority cyber area -- the PMO's mail(protected by same technology) was infected (& probably hacked), under such circumstances, will it be of any more use than an experiment? At such a huge cost. Election heat is on, and parties have suddenly embarked on 'Tuff decisions', but tuffness means not ruthlessness, I guess to me it's being strong and positive & I do not find a reason to inflict fear on citizens and vulnerable sections of society, the question I'll re-assert this 'feel-good' 'hi-tech'security(non-resident id is a big loop-hole, with police chowkies able to be bribed) is for the common man or whom? Well, recent history brings to my mind Hon CM delhi,Sheila Dixits govt opposing carry id cards scheme? One presumably ensures that distribution will be more systematic. Moreover data must be taken only where it's relevant else people will have to suffer stiff positions & embarrasment at places of work etc. eg if id schemes reflect marks years etc to test intelligence there's a problem. Two things must be adhered to all 3 posts must contain 1 woman, When infoirmation is sought it's purpose must be inspected by a human rights, an intelligence and some medico, all of a very high stature interms of post and experience, the party & his or her legal counsell , witness remittal of any information trough a distinct trans id. madatory. Wiki calls it mission creep, while judicial review is excluded. Heavy Army is always used to maintain a regime but are we heading to strong dictatorship-like pattern(as Rss ex-chief wanted) either by idealogues or religious people, modus-operandi in a democracy is create an enemy? Do we deserve it? Clearly the poor understanding of issues at intellectual level, fear of rejection & election manifesto have created even a dead-line (when Rahul accused opposition of sitting in ac rooms and blaming, did he get a feel of what various sections of masses want(one should not simply add up numbers as a 60-40 decision, clearly across cultural and caste dimension they dont add up, & politicians have been playing with this fire for their own benefits & it's near. Id card system is good, it should get you all rights without multi-registration. Benifits are speed,compactness, & reduced clerical errors, & entry into technical era, as a security tool, Costs are high. What do India's bloggers who were advised not to disclose very personal data on net(& yet they do) have to say about this. Are they that bold? Thanks for colourful discussion anyway, it's very important as it regards a private right! ________________________________ From: Kshmendra Kaul To: reader-list ; Taha Mehmood <2tahamehmood at googlemail.com> Sent: Saturday, 11 April, 2009 7:57:53 PM Subject: Re: [Reader-list] What after MNIC? The MIND, the final frontier. Dear Taha   Either my ability to express myself in English is atrociously inadequate, or your understanding of the language is extremely poor. I see no other reason for what otherwise appears as a persistent compulsion of yours to give such a spin on what has been stated by me that you completely alter the meaning and import of words.   Against the points now raised by you, let me attempt conveying my comments with greater clarity.   1.a. There are quite a number of posting on this List, by you, on the MNIC issue.   1.b. These posting of yours regarding MNIC have predominantly been reproductions of News Items that directly or indirectly refer to the MNIC. Occasionally they have been accompanied by your own comments. There have been other postings by you regarding MNIC which have contained only your comments.   1.c When I was drawing your attention to " ..... your own postings on this List regarding MNIC." I was referring to the complete contents of your postings including the reproduced News Items plus your own comments and NOT your own comments alone. Isn't that the fairer understanding of the term "your postings"?   1.d Similarly, when I said that "One of the premises on which the support for MNIC is based is that it will help weed out terrorists." and made reference to " ..... your own postings on this List regarding MNIC.", I was again referring to the complete contents of your postings including the reproduced News Items plus your own comments and NOT your own comments alone. Isn't that the fairer understanding of the term "your postings"?   1.e There was no question of suggesting that you Taha either 'support the MNIC' or that you personally hold a premise that the MNIC "will help weed out terrorists". Your 'bowed hands .. grateful" (whatever that means) sarcasm not withstanding, I have diligently been perusing your postings regarding MNIC and I would be dishonest and would be  misrepresenting the facts if I ascribed such positions to you.   1.f There does seem to be this problem of either (my) lacking in expression or (your) lacking in understanding so you can only take my word for it. Or you can accuse me of dishonesty. Which is also fine with me.    2.a. If perchance you have understood or accepted (in faith) my comments above, it would be needless for me to explain your misunderstanding of my having ascribed to Taha the belief that "MNIC will help weed out terrorists" or holding that premise for "support for MNIC" or being in "support of MNIC"   2.b You would hopefully have understood that when I wrote  "One of the premises on which the support for MNIC is based is that it  will help weed out terrorists" it is something brought out in your postings regarding MNIC and does not suggest it as being your position.   2.c I did clarify this in the earlier posting too but you chose to ignore it. Such a premise does exist in the country and it has directly or indirectly been brought out in your postings.   2.d. In the link of your posting that I had provided, you have commented along the following lines:   - issue of infiltration and security on the Indian Border.   - political class of our country hell bent ....create a particular perception of fear and security and dole National Identity Card as the sole solution   - don't want to go in for a blame-the-politician- argument for our social ills, because certainly terrorist attacks happen   - insofar as the issue of Multiple Purpose National Identity is concerned, the consensus building exercise for the issuance of the card seems to tread multiple lines of argument   - .... Kargil War occurs-for which intrusion is blamed-fencing of border areas is peddled as a solution ......distribution of identity cards is forwarded as a second option ..... Premise seems to be that MINC will alleviate intrusion of all illegal foreigners   - 'Terror' Strikes- Islamic 'terrorists' blamed-since one cannot differentiate between a Pakistani Muslim from a Bangladeshi Muslim from an Indian Muslim from an Indian Hindu, identification of all people is peddled as a solution- (Separating wheat from the chaff argument) Premise seems to be that 'Good' Muslims would be separated from 'Bad' Muslims.   2.e Hopefully Taha, you will understand from the above 'guide words' from your posting that there was no misrepresenting of you when I said " Doesnt a premise exist in the country that the "MNIC will help weed out terrorists"? Have you yourself not spoken about this premise. That does not mean that you subscribe to it and neither have I attributed it as so."   While trying to carefully structure this response to you I again wondered whether I was wasting your time and mine.   Seeing the 'spin' you have given to my words, this one thing I am convinced about though, that "Either my ability to express myself in English is atrociously inadequate, or your understanding of the language is extremely poor."     Kshmendra    --- On Thu, 4/9/09, Taha Mehmood <2tahamehmood at googlemail.com> wrote: From: Taha Mehmood <2tahamehmood at googlemail.com> Subject: Re: [Reader-list] What after MNIC? The MIND, the final frontier. To: kshmendra2005 at yahoo.com, "reader-list" Date: Thursday, April 9, 2009, 10:05 PM Dear Khsmendra Thank you for your post. Please allow me to reply with utmost sincerity the most well thought out and valid points raised in your post. 1. In the mail below, you state-Did I say that Taha supports the MNIC or that Taha holds the premise that MNIC will weed out terrorists. In the mail, below the mail below, you state- I would have presumed that you have read your own postings on this List regarding MNIC.. One of the premises on which the support for MNIC is based is that it will help weed out terrorists. - So it seems that YES you did mean, inadvertently perhaps, that I support an outrageous premise the MNIC would be used to help weed out terrorist, since there seems to be no other person, in the recent past, who have consistently posted on and about MNIC as I have. And for the sake of clarity please allow me to state -I have never, I REPEAT, I HAVE NEVER ever, uttered that MNIC could be used to weed out terrorists. That would deplorable on my part. 2. You state- Doesnt a premise exist in the country that the "MNIC will help weed out terrorists"? Have you yourself not spoken about this premise. That does not mean that you subscribe to it and neither have I attributed it as so. For confirmation : http://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/2009-January/017420.html I most humbly thank you for providing the link and I would be very grateful if you could kindly go through the post and then share it with members of the reader list, which reasonably proves, that I have indeed written a fantastically imagined premise that 'MNIC is indeed needed to weed out terrorists'. On earlier occasions, I have made everyone known that in so far as my position on MNIC is concerned being an Indian citizen, if my government choose to provide for a MNIC card, then I will also have one. But please rest assured in all these four years, had I ever read, sensed or concluded by a cursory or a detailed reading of papers related to MNIC, that MNIC is also going to be used to weed out terrorists, then, I would have used every conceivable way to reasonably argue  against such a card. The reason being thus- A statement which contends that, 'MNIC will be used to weed out terrorists' assumes, that it is known to the members of the state, who all will reasonably come under the category of 'Terrorist'. Thus any person who satisfies all the criteria of being a  'Terrorist' may be reasonably granted the status of a 'Terrorist' but as we all know that 'Terrorist' is a highly unclear category. There does not exist a clear definition of the term. There is a lot of scope for categorical slippage. Therefore no government agency anywhere  in this world has thus far  made  an  audaciously  foolish proposal to  capture  'Terrorists' while using a biometric National identity card. Although it may not be ruled that as far as the realm of fantasy is concerned there might be exist many deranged officials out there who might be thinking of subjecting the national identity card regime to such a use.  It gives me utmost satisfaction to know that there exists at least one person on this list who is a regular reader of my posts, I, with, bowed hands am grateful to you, however, I think, it would bring me all the more joy, if you could, not only read but deduce reasonably, my rather inarticulate sketches on the proposed Multiple purpose National Identity Card. Warm regards Taha Kshmendra Kaul wrote: > Dear Taha >  If past experiences with you were not enough and I needed confirmation on the bizzare nature of your personality, you have just provided it. >  You obviously did not read properly what I wrote and it appears that you do not read what you yourself post. >  My words were "One of the premises on which the support for MNIC is based is that it > will help weed out terrorists. A physical identity mapping." >  Did I say that Taha supports the MNIC or that Taha holds the premise that MNIC will weed out terrorists. Read properly what I have written and then decide whether you are justified in the content and tone of your response to me. >  Doesnt a premise exist in the country that the "MNIC will help weed out terrorists"? Have you yourself not spoken about this premise. That does not mean that you subscribe to it and neither have I attributed it as so..  For confirmation : http://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/2009-January/017420.html >  Your responses to my postings seem to be triggered by some preconcieved notions about me and prejudices aghainst me that prevent you from thinking or speaking rationally. Your problem, not mine. >  I must be one of the very few people on this List who read every single one of your MNIC postings. Read not scan through. MNIC fascinates me even as it disturbs me. >  I would have further commented on the co-relationships that do exist in the premises regarding 'weeding out terrorists' in both the MNIC and the "human cognitive' technology, but you Sir are a Closed Mind. Why waste your time and mine. >  Kshmendra. > > > --- On *Thu, 4/9/09, Taha Mehmood /<2tahamehmood at googlemail.com>/* wrote: > >    From: Taha Mehmood <2tahamehmood at googlemail.com> >    Subject: Re: [Reader-list] What after MNIC? The MIND, the final >    frontier. >    To: kshmendra2005 at yahoo.com >    Cc: "reader-list" , "Taha Mehmood" >    <2tahamehmood at googlemail.com> >    Date: Thursday, April 9, 2009, 6:47 PM > >    Dear Kshmendra > >    Your reply surprises me even more, for in my postings not only have I never >    mentioned anywhere that MNIC would help weed our terrorists but also that, had I >    mentioned any such preposterous a thing, then I would have certainly reflected >    the said issue in detail. > >    I am especially observant of the ways in which the social category of a >    'terrorist' is formed. > >    The reason why it surprises me is because of all the persons who might have >    interpreted my posting I would not have ever imagined you to read them in such a >    manner. > >    Further more in all my postings, I have tried to raise questions which might >    help us think through the most fundamental question- what do we mean by MNIC. In >    this regard I have time and again tried to illustrate by the way of specific >    examples and by broad theoretical conceptualizations that  it appears as if,    the notion central  to MNIC  card , like that of identity is fundamentally >    unresolved. > >    I find  the idea of MNIC with its unresolved core quite a curious case and to >    equate it to this seemingly bizzare technology is indeed uncalled for. Therefore >    could I hope that in all future forwards to this list, you would exercise some >    restraint before drawing any unwarranted co-relationships? > >    Regards > >    Taha > > >    Kshmendra Kaul wrote: >    > Dear Taha >    >  Your question surprises me. I would have presumed that you have read your >    own postings on this List regarding MNIC. >    >  One of the premises on which the support for MNIC is based is that it >    will help weed out terrorists. A physical identity mapping. >    >  This reported attempt to develop "human cognitive" technology >    also presumes that it will help weed out terrorists. A Mind mapping. >    >  Kshmendra      >    > --- On *Thu, 4/9/09, Taha Mehmood /<2tahamehmood at googlemail.com>/* >    wrote: >    >    >    From: Taha Mehmood <2tahamehmood at googlemail.com> >    >    Subject: Re: [Reader-list] What after MNIC? The MIND, the final >    >    frontier. >    >    To: kshmendra2005 at yahoo.com, "reader-list" >    >    >    Date: Thursday, April 9, 2009, 12:18 AM >    >    >    Dear Kshmendra (and All) >    >    >    This is with respect to your post. Could you please explain what has >    the >    >    development of this new technology got to do with National Identity >    Cards >    >    because on the face to it, they seem like two un-related events. I >    would be more >    >    than happy to benefit from your insights. >    >    >    Regards >    >    >    Taha >    >    >    >                  >              >       _________________________________________ reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. Critiques & Collaborations To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with subscribe in the subject header. To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> ________________________________ Did you know? You can CHAT without downloading messenger. Click here Unlimited freedom, unlimited storage. Get it now, on http://help.yahoo.com/l/in/yahoo/mail/yahoomail/tools/tools-08.html/ From 2tahamehmood at googlemail.com Sun Apr 12 05:50:53 2009 From: 2tahamehmood at googlemail.com (Taha Mehmood) Date: Sun, 12 Apr 2009 01:20:53 +0100 Subject: [Reader-list] FW: Seize the moment In-Reply-To: References: <49DFD478.1060503@gmail.com> Message-ID: <49E133E5.5050704@gmail.com> Dear Sandeep Could you please elaborate particularly on the use of two words 'Islam' and 'Hinduism' because 'generally speaking' 'broadly understood' these categories hide a lot more complexity than they reveal. I find them highly complex, multi-layered and intertwined. Islam in India, for instance, as I have argued on earlier occasions on this list, could be a variant of either Hanafi, Shafii, Maliki or Hanbali school of thought, and may comprise of Mappilas, Knokani, Marathi, Patel, Memon, Dawoodi, khoja, Ismali communities. The Muslims who who first came to India from central Asia used to follow a different kind of Islam, even within that Islam there were divisions. Therefore the point being, any open honest discussion around historical dimension of Hindu Muslim relations is bound to be fraught with inconsistencies, because, the categories- Hindus and Muslims in fact do not exist, have never existed. There has never ever been a universal definition and a universal sense of sameness for the adherents of these religions. And then one has to contend with a view that Hinduism is in fact not a religion but a way of life, as if those who claim to be Muslims, do not rely on certain codes of conduct determined for them by others. In a way one might also argue about some sort an imagination relating to an 'Islamic' way of life. But surely there cannot be 'the Islamic way of life' as there cannot be 'the Hindu way of life'. Any inquiry which seeks to established the true account of /kisne kya kiya /will have to first clearly and beyond any doubt establish who is this /kisne /and then move on from there. Hence it seems insofar as the collective identities of people of these religions is concerned we need to look closely at the history of formation of religious categories as distinct from one another. Whatever points you have raised seem genuine and worth discussing but it surprises me that for someone who, not so long ago held a view that- 'Identity poltics can be good time pass or resersch project if the point is to expose their hollowness without mercy and tolerence of stupidities of these actors whether oppressed or wannabe oppressed. As far as i think both oppressed and oppressors when they play identity game they want to change Supreme opressors, and do nothing about social inequality, democratic rights etc. In other words every oppressed mniority wants a space where it can oppress others. ' (as posted by you on the reader-list on 2/1/2009 2:54 PM) could so clearly articulate this new fad of 'apology politics'. I don't think, that in majority of Indian Muslims, there exists many people who have a historical memory of governing even a small chunk of this nation, more than most of the Muslims who were left behind after partition were either urban poor or rural landless peasants. Again within the Urban poor most of them were artisans and I would not be surprised, if one were to find that most them had converted to Islam five or may be six generations ago. The point being, don't you think, that for anyone to ask and expect an apology, from a 'Muslim' whose family had been 'Hindus' five or six generations back for forceful or voluntary conversion to Islam is little off the mark. Regards Taha PS: I saw Mohan Bhagwat's speech with fascination and no I do not think he seemed like a common leftist. For no leftist, I think, irrespective of the fact whether he is common or uncommon will, quote an article from Reader's Digest ( God...oooppps Marx forbid) to justify a claim that his organization is gaining in popularity or acquiring validity in the public domain. From rakesh.rnbdj at gmail.com Sun Apr 12 08:44:08 2009 From: rakesh.rnbdj at gmail.com (Rakesh Iyer) Date: Sun, 12 Apr 2009 08:44:08 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Elections & Speeches/Quotes Message-ID: Dear all I found this webpage through an Outlook blog and felt I should send it. It speaks about the reality of our Indian politics, as also about how Obama is different from all this. http://www.telegraphindia.com/1090411/images/11zzlead1big.jpg Please do go through it Regards Rakesh From admin at indianfinearts.com Thu Apr 9 17:31:50 2009 From: admin at indianfinearts.com (Ajit Vahadane) Date: Thu, 9 Apr 2009 17:31:50 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] [Announcements] Please join International artists Network Message-ID: <4810953[THNRR134]@winxp> Dear Artists friends /art gallery owners / Art dealers / Art buyers and art lovers in all countries in the world. Join International artists Network website and 1)Now you can have guidance, friendships, networking with all artists around the world. 2)Join different specialised groups and get info about Art competitions / Scholorships / Residency programs / Useful websites for artists / various art expos etc 3) Get connected to various art galleries and art buyers as well as artists from various countries in the world. Go Global! join International artists network http://internationalartistsnetwork.ning.com/ Last date for sending entries for 9th Indian art exhibition in Jakarta is 30th April 2009. Thanking you and wishing you all the best Ajit Vahadane, Indian artists network India +91-9821656016 -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- If you do not wish to get our email,please reply with DELETE in your subject line in your email to us.We do not wish to spam anyone in our email list.Sorry for inconvenience -------------- next part -------------- _______________________________________________ announcements mailing list announcements at sarai.net https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/announcements From kauladityaraj at gmail.com Sun Apr 12 15:04:42 2009 From: kauladityaraj at gmail.com (Aditya Raj Kaul) Date: Sun, 12 Apr 2009 15:04:42 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] 1400-year-old idol found in J&K Message-ID: <6353c690904120234q6f685a8bx26b05a73901f0854@mail.gmail.com> *1400-year-old idol found in J&K* *Srinagar (PTI):* A rare granite sculpture of Goddess Laxmi, believed to be 1,400 years old, has been found at Waghama village along the river Jehlum in Anantnag district of Jammu and Kashmir. The sculpture, that was found by the farmers a few days ago, has been taken in possession by the state Archives and Archeology department and its antiquity and artistic details are being studied, its Deputy Director Peerzada Mohammad Ashraf said on Sunday. He said the farmers stumbled upon the idol when they were digging a field in Waghama-Bijbehara, 45 kms from here. They kept the idol with them but some villagers tipped the local police who recovered it and handed it over to the archaeology department. The idol is seven inches high and 4.5 inches wide and is seen as one of the most important findings of the year, Mr. Ashraf said. "It is a rare find bearing Gandhara art influence," Mr. Ashraf said. Bijbehara has been the home of Hellenistic art and evidences of early Hellenistic sculpture art had been found from here in the past. From kshmendra2005 at yahoo.com Sun Apr 12 15:17:24 2009 From: kshmendra2005 at yahoo.com (Kshmendra Kaul) Date: Sun, 12 Apr 2009 02:47:24 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Reader-list] What after MNIC? The MIND, the final frontier. In-Reply-To: <49E0B89F.3000908@gmail.com> Message-ID: <297690.6074.qm@web57208.mail.re3.yahoo.com> Dear Taha   Most of what you have written has nothing to do with the conversation exchange in this particular thread which you started with a 'stand-alone' and 'referring to nothing' Hindi Maxim (reproduced below)   You say that what you have called your own 'nervous sounding noises' were meant to serve the purpose of "message gets across".   Well, they didn't because what you have called your 'nervous sounding noises' referred to nothing.   You have said that I 'need an explanation on this'. No I do not, nor did I ask for one.   I only pointed out to you that what you have called your 'nervous sounding noises'  was  not only puerile and revealed you as a pathetic character  but bizarre too because your "stand alone" quoting of the Hindi Maxim referred to nothing.   You believe this what you have called your 'nervous sounding noises' was an apt response. Perhaps it could be considered so, but wait a minute, it cannot be considered so because you gave no indication then what it was you were responding to.   You now state that this 'puerility' of yours was prompted by the much more puerile idea  "which would want us to believe that national identity cards could be used to weed out terrorists or that technology is on the way, which could enable us to actually read the mind of terrorists."   Now, with this, what you have called your 'nervous sounding noises' make some sense since you have explained what prompted them. I have no issue with that.   Though unconnected with this particular conversation thread that started with  what you have called your 'nervous sounding noises' you have now expressed some thoughts and references on "the issue of terrorists or terror or terrorism.".   Very informative and educational. Thank you.   I fully agree with your 'Dear Kshmendra' point that 'in order to conclusively establish the identity of a person as a 'Terrorist' one has to follow a proper procedure.'   Nor do I disagree with your comment that "any claim or defense of any such claim which seeks to provide a technology which will help weed out terrorists seem ridiculous"   I would like to qualify that with my comment that at this point of time there is no credible technology that could in an irrefutable and unchallenged manner evidence what is on someones mind.   Even the two 'support for investigation' procedures "tapping into the Mind" that are currently employed; Lie Detector Test; Truth Serum Brain Mapping although having been around for quite a few decades are still not generally acceptable as being sources for Legal Evidence.    In the scenarios dealing with the issues of "terrorists or terror or terrorism" (even if at some point of time there were any such technology that could provide evidence from "Mind Mapping') there is the more important and critical predetermination to be made as to whether a particular act to start with can be designated at all as an 'act of terror'. As you rightly pointed out "  the term 'Terrorist' is a social construct".     Kshmendra      --- On Sat, 4/11/09, Taha Mehmood <2tahamehmood at googlemail.com> wrote: From: Taha Mehmood <2tahamehmood at googlemail.com> Subject: Re: [Reader-list] What after MNIC? The MIND, the final frontier. To: kshmendra2005 at yahoo.com, "reader-list" Date: Saturday, April 11, 2009, 9:04 PM Dear Kshmendra I have never ever claimed to be an 'intellectual' in the first place, nor that it amuses me now that, according to you, I stand exposed. There are times when one does not have to be specific in uttering, all one has to do is to make some nervous sounding noises and the message gets across. I am sorry that you need an explanation on this, because there isn't any. And I would like to believe that my response was apt. I find it hard to respond with more puerility than an idea which would want us to believe that national identity cards could be used to weed out terrorists or that technology is on the way, which could enable us to actually read the mind of terrorists. But now that you have responded, please allow me to come back to the issue of terrorists or terror or terrorism. In this regard please allow me to share with you fragments of a judgment pronounced by a bench comprising of DORAISWAMY RAJU & ARIJIT PASAYAT of the Supreme Court of India. This judgment was with respect to a case pertaining to Nazir Khan and others v/s State of Delhi. The judgment was pronounced on 22nd of August 2003. Salient points of the Judgment are as follows- terrorists have no religion; there is no universal definition of terrorism; in order to prove without doubt that such and such person is a terrorist proper evidence, related to a conspiracy to commit an act which may be ascribed as a terror act, must be examined and evidenced must be conclusivly proven beyond any doubt; conspiracy involves an agreement by two or more persons to commit an unlawful act, evidence gathered to prove such a conspiracy could be either circumstantial or based on confessions; confessions so obtained must be voluntary, Voluntary' means a statement made of the free will and accord of accused, without coercion, whether from fear of any threat of harm, promise, or inducement or any hope of reward. The point being Dear Kshmendra, in order to conclusively establish the identity of a person as a 'Terrorist' one has to follow a proper procedure. Therefore any claim or defense of any such claim which seeks to provide a technology which will help weed out terrorists seem ridiculous. We have to understand that the term 'Terrorist' is a social construct, it is an abstraction, at best one can only subjectively ascertain a person as a terrorist by following a proper procedure at worst one can rhetorically tag persons, peoples as terrorists because of some ulterior motive, machines on the other hand are good at sorting out material or fixed entities or those abstract entities whose definitions are universal. With warm regards Taha 1. Terrorists have no religion, no concept of communal or social harmony and value for human life. 2.As noted at the outset, it is not possible to precisely define "terrorism". Finding a definition of "terrorism" has haunted countries for decades. A first attempt to arrive at an internationally acceptable definition was made under the League of Nations, but the convention drafted in 1937 never came into existence. 3.The UN Member States still have no agreed-upon definition. Terminology consensus would, however, be necessary for a single comprehensive convention on terrorism, which some countries favour in place of the present 12 piecemeal conventions and protocols. The lack of agreement on a definition of terrorism has been a major obstacle to meaningful international countermeasures. Cynics have often commented that one State's "terrorist" is another State's "freedom fighter". If terrorism is defined strictly in terms of attacks on non-military targets, a number of attacks on military installations and soldiers' residences could not be included in the statistics. In order to cut through the Gordian definitional knot, terrorism expert A. Schmid suggested in 1992 in a report for the then UN Crime Branch that it might be a good idea to take the existing consensus on what constitutes a "war crime" as a point of departure. If the core of war crimes - deliberate attacks on civilians, hostage taking and the killing of prisoners - is extended to peacetime, we could simply define acts of terrorism as "peacetime equivalents of war crimes". 4.League of Nations Convention (1937) :"All criminal acts directed against a State along with intended or calculated to create a statute of terror in the minds of particular persons or a group of persons or the general public". 5. Short legal definition proposed by A.P. Schmid to United Nations Crime Branch (1992) : Act of Terrorism = Peacetime Equivalent of War Crime 6. "Terrorism is an anxiety-inspiring of repeated violent action, employed by (semi-) clandestine individual, group or state actors, for idiosyncratic, criminal or political reasons, whereby - in contrast to assassination - the direct targets of violence are not the main targets. The immediate human victims of violence are generally chosen randomly (targets of opportunity) or selectively (representative or symbolic targets) from a target population, and serve as message generators. Threat- and violence-based communication processes between terrorist (organization), (imperiled) victims, and main targets are used to manipulate the main target (audience (s)), turning it into a target of terror, a target of demands, or a target of attention, depending on whether intimidation, coercion, or propaganda is primarily sought" (Schmid, 1988). 7. Terrorism is the use or threatened use of force designed to bring about political change. - Brian Jenkins 8. Terrorism constitutes the illegitimate use of force to achieve a political objective when innocent people are targeted. - Walter Laqueur. 9. Terrorism is the premeditated, deliberate, systematic murder, mayhem, and threatening of the innocent to create fear and intimidation in order to gain a political or tactical advantage, usually to influence an audience. - James M. Poland 10. Terrorism is the unlawful use or threat of violence against persons or property to further political or social objectives. It is usually intended to intimidate or coerce a government, individuals or groups, or to modify their behavior or politics. - Vice-President's Task Force, 1986 11. Terrorism is the unlawful use of force or violence against persons or property to intimidate or coerce a government, the civilian population, or any segment thereof, in furtherance of political or social objectives. - FBI Definition 12. No doubt in the case of conspiracy there cannot be any direct evidence. The ingredients of offence are that there should be an agreement between persons who are alleged to conspire and the said agreement should be for doing an illegal act or for doing illegal means an act which itself may not be illegal. Therefore, the essence of criminal conspiracy is an agreement to do an illegal act and such an agreement can be proved either by direct evidence or by circumstantial evidence or by both, and it is a matter of common experience that direct evidence to prove conspiracy is rarely available. Therefore, the circumstances proved before, during and after the occurrence have to be considered to decide about the complicity of the accused. 13. "Conspiracy consists in the agreement of two or more persons to do an unlawful act, or to do a lawful act by unlawful means. It is an indictable offence at common law, the punishment for which is imprisonment or fine or both in the discretion of the Court. 14. Privacy and secrecy are more characteristics of a conspiracy, than of a loud discussion in an elevated place open to public view. Direct evidence in proof of a conspiracy is seldom available, offence of conspiracy can be proved by either direct or circumstantial evidence. It is not always possible to give affirmative evidence about the date of the formation of the criminal conspiracy, about the persons who took part in the formation of the conspiracy, about the object, which the objectors set before themselves as the object of conspiracy, and about the manner in which the object of conspiracy is to be carried out, all this is necessarily a matter of inference. 15. The provisions of Section 120-A and 120-B, IPC have brought the law of conspiracy in India in line with the English Law by making the overt act unessential when the conspiracy is to commit any punishable offence. The English Law on this matter is well settled. Russell on crime (12 Ed.Vol.I, p.202) may be usefully noted- "The gist of the offence of conspiracy then lies, not in doing the act, or effecting the purpose for which the conspiracy is formed, nor in attempting to do them, nor in inciting others to do them, but in the forming of the scheme or agreement between the parties, agreement is essential. Mere knowledge, or even discussion, of the plan is not, per se, enough." 16. Coleridge, J. while summing up the case to Jury in Regina v. Murphy [(1837) 173 ER 502 at p. 508] states:"I am bound to tell you, that although the common design is the root of the charge, it is not necessary to prove that these two parties came together and actually agreed in terms to have this common design and to pursue it by common means, and so to carry it into execution. This is not necessary, because in many cases of the most clearly established conspiracies there are no means of proving any such thing and neither law nor common sense requires that it should be proved. If you find that these two persons pursued by their acts the same object, often by the same means, one performing one part of an act, so as to complete it, with a view to the attainment of the object which they were pursuing, you will be at liberty to draw the conclusion that they have been engaged in a conspiracy to effect that object. The question you have to ask yourselves is, had they this common design, and did they pursue it by these common means the design being unlawful." 17. Conspiracy is conceived as having three elements: (1) agreement; (2) between two or more persons by whom the agreement is effected; and (3) a criminal object, which may be either the ultimate aim of the agreement, or may constitute the means, or one of the means by which that aim is to be accomplished. It is immaterial whether this is found in the ultimate objects. 18. "The very agreement, concert or league is the ingredient of the offence. It is not necessary that all the conspirators must know each and every detail of the conspiracy as long as they are co-participators in the main object of the conspiracy. There may be so many devices and techniques adopted to achieve the common goal of the conspiracy and there may be division of performances in the chain of actions with one object to achieve the real end of which every collaborator must be aware and in which each one of them must be interested. There must be unity of object or purpose but there may be plurality of means sometimes even unknown to one another, amongst the conspirators. In achieving the goal several offences may be committed by some of the conspirators even unknown to the others. The only relevant factor is that all means adopted and illegal acts done must be and purported to be in furtherance of the object of the conspiracy even though there may be sometimes misfire or overshooting by some of the conspirators. 19.The principle therein is that confession must be voluntary. Section 15 of TADA Act also requires the confession to be voluntary. Voluntary means that one who makes it out of his own free will inspired by the sound of his own conscience to speak nothing but the truth. As per Stroud's Judicial Dictionary, 5th Edn., at p.2633 threat means: "It is the essence of a threat that it be made for the purpose of intimidating, or overcoming, the will of the person to whom it is addressed (per Lush, J, Wood v. Bowron (1866) 2 QB 21) cited intimidate." 20. Words and Phrases, permanent edition, Vol.44, p. 622 defines 'voluntary' as:'Voluntary' means a statement made of the free will and accord of accused, without coercion, whether from fear of any threat of harm, promise, or inducement or any hope of reward - State v. Mullin (85NW 2nd 598, 600, 249 lown 10)". 21. In Words and Phrases by John B. Saunders 3rd edition, vol.4, p.401, 'voluntary' is defined as:".....the classic statement of the principle is that of Lord Sumner in Ibrahim v. Regem ( 1914 AC 599) ( at p.609) where he said, "it has long been established as a positive rule of English criminal law that no statement by an accused is admissible in evidence against him unless it is shown by the prosecution to be a voluntary statement, in the sense that it has not been obtained from him either by fear of prejudice or hope of advantage exercise or held out by a person in authority. The principle is as old as Lord Hale". However, in five of the eleven textbooks cited to us ....support is to be found for a narrow and rather technical meaning of the word "voluntary". According to this view, "voluntary" means merely that the statement has not been made in consequence of (i) some promise of advantage or some threat (ii) of a temporal character (iii) held out or made by a person in authority, and (iv) relating to the charge in the sense that it implies that the accused's position in the contemplated proceedings will or may be better or worse according to whether or not the statement is made. R. v. Power [( 1966) 3 All ER 433) ( at pp.454, 455)] per Cantley, V." 22. In Principle and Digest of Law of Evidence, Vol.I, New Edn. By Chief Justice M. Monir, after noticing conflicting views and discussing various authorities, the learned author summarized the position as follows:"The rule may therefore, be stated to be that whereas the evidence in proof of a confession having been made is always to be suspected, the confession, if once proved to have been made and made voluntarily, is one of the most effectual proofs in the law." CASE NO.:Appeal (crl.) 734 of 2003PETITIONER:Nazir Khan and Ors. RESPONDENT: Vs. State of Delhi ATE OF JUDGMENT: 22/08/2003 BENCH:DORAISWAMY RAJU & ARIJIT PASAYAT.JUDGMENT:J U D G M E N T With Death Reference No.(Crl.) No.1 of 2003ANDCRIMINAL APPEAL NO.......(D.14990/2002) --- On Sat, 4/11/09, Kshmendra Kaul wrote: From: Kshmendra Kaul Subject: Re: [Reader-list] What after MNIC? The MIND, the final frontier. To: "Taha Mehmood" <2tahamehmood at googlemail.com> Cc: "reader-list" Date: Saturday, April 11, 2009, 7:52 PM Dear Taha   With this kind of a peurile response, you have only stripped off from yourself the veneer of intellect and revealed yourself as quite a pathetic character.   What is worse, your attempt at humour, even when accompanied by the use of punctuating (and very nervous sounding) "lol" becomes all the more bizzare when your (stand alone) post does not give any indication of what it refers to.   Kshmendra --- On Thu, 4/9/09, Taha Mehmood <2tahamehmood at googlemail.com> wrote: From: Taha Mehmood <2tahamehmood at googlemail.com> Subject: Re: [Reader-list] What after MNIC? The MIND, the final frontier. To: kshmendra2005 at yahoo.com Cc: "reader-list" Date: Thursday, April 9, 2009, 9:22 PM Dear Kshmendra I think the only thing that comes to my mind is a Hindi maxim which goes on like this- Khisyani billi khamba noche!!! lol Taha    From kshmendra2005 at yahoo.com Sun Apr 12 17:41:00 2009 From: kshmendra2005 at yahoo.com (Kshmendra Kaul) Date: Sun, 12 Apr 2009 05:11:00 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Reader-list] What after MNIC? The MIND, the final frontier. In-Reply-To: <49E0C6AC.1070506@gmail.com> Message-ID: <969280.64103.qm@web57208.mail.re3.yahoo.com> Dear Taha   This is a very interesting response from you. Interesting 'posting' by you.   1. You wrote "There is no need for you to see reason in my posts, because there seems to be nothing reasonable in what you want to interpret."   - What I have wanted to interpret is your responses. Certainly you do not mean to say that there is 'nothing reasonable' in what your responses have been. That is too harsh even if it were to come from me who has seen very little rationality being demonstrated by you.   - Perhaps you meant to say that my interpretations of your responses are not reasonable. I will disagree with that.    - Even if this were true, which it is not, it would still not justify your dictate there is no need for me to see reason in your posts. That is a stupid advisory.   2. You have called my mail 'seemingly logical'. You have not cared to explain that tag. If later in your 'posting' you think you have provided evidence for that, you are terribly mistaken and in fact have badly faltered as I will point out.    3. You have concluded (on the basis of unconnected and quoted out of context attitudes attributed to me) that for me " slandering a person or relying heavily on fallacies like ad hominem are the only rhetorical crutches you have." A generalisation about me but more importantly you have not given any explanation for that on the basis of this particular thread. Noted your comments though and I disagree with your conclusion.   4. You wrote " It is painful, Khsmendra, to see you  first utter a stupid thing and then defend it in this manner."   - I sympathise with your pain. I will request you to specifically quote the 'stupid thing' I have uttered.    LET ME NOW COME TO what has been at the crux of this exchange between you and me.   5. You wrote "This is in addition to four full length papers, which i have posted on the list before i began posting news articles and other materials."   - You used the word 'posted' for your sending to this List 'four full length papers'. Interestingly you used the word 'posting' also for sending to this List ' news articles and other material'.   - With this construct of your sentence you contradict yourself and decimate  the  differentiation you immediately after in your 'posting' try to bring about between "forwards" and "posts" when you write (later)   " ... when I was forwarding News Items or papers I was in a way doing the job of a researcher. Which is to re-search and collect data. I did not filter out those messages where I had a fundamental disagreement with either the content or the formulation or theoretical assumptions of those messages. So they were not my posts but my forwards"   6. You wrote "I did not agree to the content or the context of the structure of the argument of the some of the mails yet I forwarded them."   - Of course you did not and when you first highlighted that in our exchanges I confirmed that understanding of "your posting".    7. One of the problems with you in our exchanges has been my usage of term "your postings". This in spite of my clarifying that by 'your posting' I did not mean that you agreed with or subscribed with all that was contained in "your posting".   - Now in this "posting" you contradict yourself by giving two different interpretations of "posting"   - Any such interpretation by you would be totally incorrect that "posting" should be taken as meaning that the one 'posting' is necessarily the author of the contents of the "posting" (words, pics, audios, videos) or subscribes to or agrees with the contents of the "posting". A "posting"  could be of a "forward" too.   - In the Web World a "posting" could be simply described as "  an e-mail message that is publicly available"   - Here another reference for the word "posting" :   A message sent to a newsgroup or mailing list (may also be called "a post") or the act of sending it. Distinguished from a "letter" or ordinary electronic mail message by the fact that it is broadcast rather than point-to-point. It is not clear whether messages sent to a small mailing list are postings or e-mail; perhaps the best dividing line is that if you don't know the names of all the potential recipients, it is a posting.   8. So Taha, now having hopefully convinced you about what is meant by "posting" (a view you yourself also have held as shown in Pt 5,) your comment of   "fundamental error of assumption in 1.c and 1d" becomes invalid.   9. I had earlier written : " Doesnt a premise exist in the country that the "MNIC will help weed out terrorists"? Have you yourself not spoken about this premise. That does not mean that you subscribe to it and neither have I attributed it as so." For this I had brought to your attention your "posting" http://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/2009-January/017420.html   - In your response while explaining some of the contents of that particular "posting" of yours, you also wrote:   """""  The word 'terrorists' which you have so underlined was used a background to suggest that this is one the ways by which the idea of a national identity card is being proposed. """"" -  How do these words of yours contradict my contention that a)  "premise exist in the country that the "MNIC will help weed out terrorists"?"" AND b)  "you yourself.. (have).. spoken about this premise." ??   - You have only confirmed what I had written and yet for some strange reason still choose to be argumentative about it.   You have signed off your 'posting' with the expectation that there will be "some amount reasonableness in discourse".   I do not agree with you that I have not used 'reason', but I do accuse you of irrational responses and attempts to misinterpret my words and presumptions about what I have written (or think) for which you have no evidence.   It might be a good idea to ask a third person to objectively study the exchanges between us and decide on who has resorted to reason and who has not. Is that acceptable to you? If it is, please do suggest some names and I might find one of them acceptable or suggest some others for you to choose from.   Kshmendra   --- On Sat, 4/11/09, Taha Mehmood <2tahamehmood at googlemail.com> wrote: From: Taha Mehmood <2tahamehmood at googlemail.com> Subject: Re: [Reader-list] What after MNIC? The MIND, the final frontier. To: kshmendra2005 at yahoo.com, "reader-list" Date: Saturday, April 11, 2009, 10:04 PM Dear Kshmendra Neither your ability to express in English is atrociously inadequate nor my understanding of the language is extremely poor. There is no need for you to see reason in my posts, because there seems to be nothing reasonable in what you want to interpret. However, I thank you for the pain that you seem have taken to write a seemingly logical mail but I am sorry to say that your post appears just that, 'seemingly logical'. In my earlier exchanges with you I used to get quite worked up by your generous use of adjectives but now it seems to me, that it is not for no reason that you rely on adjectives so much. Since you have, on many occasions made absolutely clear to the members of this list, about your disapproval for theory, your loathe for detailed discussions, and your impatience for views which dwell on core conceptual formulations, I think one can safely conclude that for you, slandering a person or relying heavily on fallacies like ad hominem are the only rhetorical crutches you have. It is painful, Khsmendra, to see you first utter a stupid thing and then defend it in this manner. But having said that, since you have, I respect your effort, so please allow me to answer the points you have raised. 1.a. There are quite a number of posting on this List, by you, on the MNIC issue. -That's true. 1.b. These posting of yours regarding MNIC have predominantly been reproductions of News Items that directly or indirectly refer to the MNIC. Occasionally they have been accompanied by your own comments. There have been other postings by you regarding MNIC which have contained only your comments. -That's correct. This is in addition to four full length papers, which i have posted on the list before i began posting news articles and other materials. 1.c When I was drawing your attention to " ..... your own postings on this List regarding MNIC." I was referring to the complete contents of your postings including the reproduced News Items plus your own comments and NOT your own comments alone. Isn't that the fairer understanding of the term "your postings"? - I would not like to think so. Because in all those instances when I was forwarding News Items or papers I was in a way doing the job of a researcher. Which is to re-search and collect data. I did not filter out those messages where I had a fundamental disagreement with either the content or the formulation or theoretical assumptions of those messages. So they were not my posts but my forwards and I did not agree to the content or the context of the structure of the argument of the some of the mails yet I forwarded them. 1.d Similarly, when I said that "One of the premises on which the support for MNIC is based is that it will help weed out terrorists." and made reference to " ..... your own postings on this List regarding MNIC.", I was again referring to the complete contents of your postings including the reproduced News Items plus your own comments and NOT your own comments alone. Isn't that the fairer understanding of the term "your postings"? - No that is not a fairer understanding of the term 'your posting'. 1e, 1f, 2a, 2b,2c - Does not apply because of fundamental error of assumption in 1.c and 1d 2.d. In the link of your posting that I had provided, you have commented along the following lines: - issue of infiltration and security on the Indian Border. That's true. I have. - political class of our country hell bent ....create a particular perception of fear and security and dole National Identity Card as the sole solution That's correct. - don't want to go in for a blame-the-politician- argument for our social ills, because certainly terrorist attacks happen That's correct. - insofar as the issue of Multiple Purpose National Identity is concerned, the consensus building exercise for the issuance of the card seems to tread multiple lines of argument That is also right. - .... Kargil War occurs-for which intrusion is blamed-fencing of border areas is peddled as a solution ......distribution of identity cards is forwarded as a second option ..... Premise seems to be that MINC will alleviate intrusion of all illegal foreigners. That is right too. - 'Terror' Strikes- Islamic 'terrorists' blamed-since one cannot differentiate between a Pakistani Muslim from a Bangladeshi Muslim from an Indian Muslim from an Indian Hindu, identification of all people is peddled as a solution- (Separating wheat from the chaff argument) Premise seems to be that 'Good' Muslims would be separated from 'Bad' Muslims. That is also right but isn't it clear that there is one core concept here is citizenship. MNIC is peddled as a token to weed out citizens from non citizens. And in the context of 'Islamic Terror' I was referring to the proposed use of MNIC to weed out an Indian Muslim, who is also a law abiding, tax paying citizen in other words a 'good muslim' versus a 'bad muslim' who wants to harm the idea of India by cloaking himself in Indian identity or citizenship to evade detection. The issue here was same to weed out citizens from non citizens. More ever, 'good muslim' 'bad muslim' was deliberately used as a reference point to the work of Mahmud Mamdani by the same name. Wherein he dwells at length about the ways in which social constructs like 'good muslim' or 'bad muslim' came into being and how these constructs are intricately woven into the discourse of modern nation states and how they prefigure in policies and governmental attitudes, especially when it comes to according religious minorities like muslims the status of citizens. The word 'terrorists' which you have so underlined was used a background to suggest that this is one the ways by which the idea of a national identity card is being proposed. The MNIC is not being proposed to 'weed out terrorists' but it is assumed that 'Pakistani Muslims or Bangladeshi Muslims' are sometimes involved in 'terrorist attacks' hence MNIC could act as a filter to weed out Pakistani or Bangladeshi nationals or citizens. If you want to have more discussions on this then I will be more than happy to respond to your mails. At the same time, I expect with all sincerity some amount reasonableness in discourse. With warm regards Taha kshmendra Kaul wrote: > Dear Taha > Either my ability to express myself in English is atrociously inadequate, or your understanding of the language is extremely poor. I see no other reason for what otherwise appears as a persistent compulsion of yours to give such a spin on what has been stated by me that you completely alter the meaning and import of words. > Against the points now raised by you, let me attempt conveying my comments with greater clarity. > 1.a. There are quite a number of posting on this List, by you, on the MNIC issue. > 1.b. These posting of yours regarding MNIC have predominantly been reproductions of News Items that directly or indirectly refer to the MNIC. Occasionally they have been accompanied by your own comments. There have been other postings by you regarding MNIC which have contained only your comments. > 1.c When I was drawing your attention to " ..... your own postings on this List regarding MNIC." I was referring to the complete contents of your postings including the reproduced News Items plus your own comments and NOT your own comments alone. Isn't that the fairer understanding of the term "your postings"? > 1.d Similarly, when I said that "One of the premises on which the support for MNIC is based is that it will help weed out terrorists." and made reference to " ..... your own postings on this List regarding MNIC.", I was again referring to the complete contents of your postings including the reproduced News Items plus your own comments and NOT your own comments alone. Isn't that the fairer understanding of the term "your postings"? > 1.e There was no question of suggesting that you Taha either 'support the MNIC' or that you personally hold a premise that the MNIC "will help weed out terrorists". Your 'bowed hands .. grateful" (whatever that means) sarcasm not withstanding, I have diligently been perusing your postings regarding MNIC and I would be dishonest and would be misrepresenting the facts if I ascribed such positions to you. > 1.f There does seem to be this problem of either (my) lacking in expression or (your) lacking in understanding so you can only take my word for it. Or you can accuse me of dishonesty. Which is also fine with me. 2.a. If perchance you have understood or accepted (in faith) my comments above, it would be needless for me to explain your misunderstanding of my having ascribed to Taha the belief that "MNIC will help weed out terrorists" or holding that premise for "support for MNIC" or being in "support of MNIC" > 2.b You would hopefully have understood that when I wrote "One of the premises on which the support for MNIC is based is that it will help weed out terrorists" it is something brought out in your postings regarding MNIC and does not suggest it as being your position. > 2.c I did clarify this in the earlier posting too but you chose to ignore it. Such a premise does exist in the country and it has directly or indirectly been brought out in your postings. > 2.d. In the link of your posting that I had provided, you have commented along the following lines: > - issue of infiltration and security on the Indian Border. > - political class of our country hell bent ....create a particular perception of fear and security and dole National Identity Card as the sole solution > - don't want to go in for a blame-the-politician- argument for our social ills, because certainly terrorist attacks happen > - insofar as the issue of Multiple Purpose National Identity is concerned, the consensus building exercise for the issuance of the card seems to tread multiple lines of argument > - .... Kargil War occurs-for which intrusion is blamed-fencing of border areas is peddled as a solution ......distribution of identity cards is forwarded as a second option ..... Premise seems to be that MINC will alleviate intrusion of all illegal foreigners > - 'Terror' Strikes- Islamic 'terrorists' blamed-since one cannot differentiate between a Pakistani Muslim from a Bangladeshi Muslim from an Indian Muslim from an Indian Hindu, identification of all people is peddled as a solution- (Separating wheat from the chaff argument) Premise seems to be that 'Good' Muslims would be separated from 'Bad' > Muslims. > 2.e Hopefully Taha, you will understand from the above 'guide words' from your posting that there was no misrepresenting of you when I said " Doesnt a premise exist in the country that the "MNIC will help weed out terrorists"? Have you yourself not spoken about this premise. That does not mean that you subscribe to it and neither have I attributed it as so." > While trying to carefully structure this response to you I again wondered whether I was wasting your time and mine. > Seeing the 'spin' you have given to my words, this one thing I am convinced about though, that "Either my ability to express myself in English is atrociously inadequate, or your understanding of the language is extremely poor." > Kshmendra > --- On Thu, 4/9/09, Taha Mehmood <2tahamehmood at googlemail.com> wrote: From: Taha Mehmood <2tahamehmood at googlemail.com> Subject: Re: [Reader-list] What after MNIC? The MIND, the final frontier. To: kshmendra2005 at yahoo.com, "reader-list" Date: Thursday, April 9, 2009, 10:05 PM Dear Khsmendra Thank you for your post. Please allow me to reply with utmost sincerity the most well thought out and valid points raised in your post. 1. In the mail below, you state-Did I say that Taha supports the MNIC or that Taha holds the premise that MNIC will weed out terrorists. In the mail, below the mail below, you state- I would have presumed that you have read your own postings on this List regarding MNIC. One of the premises on which the support for MNIC is based is that it will help weed out terrorists. - So it seems that YES you did mean, inadvertently perhaps, that I support an outrageous premise the MNIC would be used to help weed out terrorist, since there seems to be no other person, in the recent past, who have consistently posted on and about MNIC as I have. And for the sake of clarity please allow me to state -I have never, I REPEAT, I HAVE NEVER ever, uttered that MNIC could be used to weed out terrorists. That would deplorable on my part. 2. You state- Doesnt a premise exist in the country that the "MNIC will help weed out terrorists"? Have you yourself not spoken about this premise. That does not mean that you subscribe to it and neither have I attributed it as so. For confirmation : http://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/2009-January/017420.html I most humbly thank you for providing the link and I would be very grateful if you could kindly go through the post and then share it with members of the reader list, which reasonably proves, that I have indeed written a fantastically imagined premise that 'MNIC is indeed needed to weed out terrorists'. On earlier occasions, I have made everyone known that in so far as my position on MNIC is concerned being an Indian citizen, if my government choose to provide for a MNIC card, then I will also have one. But please rest assured in all these four years, had I ever read, sensed or concluded by a cursory or a detailed reading of papers related to MNIC, that MNIC is also going to be used to weed out terrorists, then, I would have used every conceivable way to reasonably argue against such a card. The reason being thus- A statement which contends that, 'MNIC will be used to weed out terrorists' assumes, that it is known to the members of the state, who all will reasonably come under the category of 'Terrorist'. Thus any person who satisfies all the criteria of being a 'Terrorist' may be reasonably granted the status of a 'Terrorist' but as we all know that 'Terrorist' is a highly unclear category. There does not exist a clear definition of the term. There is a lot of scope for categorical slippage. Therefore no government agency anywhere in this world has thus far made an audaciously foolish proposal to capture 'Terrorists' while using a biometric National identity card. Although it may not be ruled that as far as the realm of fantasy is concerned there might be exist many deranged officials out there who might be thinking of subjecting the national identity card regime to such a use. It gives me utmost satisfaction to know that there exists at least one person on this list who is a regular reader of my posts, I, with, bowed hands am grateful to you, however, I think, it would bring me all the more joy, if you could, not only read but deduce reasonably, my rather inarticulate sketches on the proposed Multiple purpose National Identity Card. Warm regards Taha Kshmendra Kaul wrote: > Dear Taha > If past experiences with you were not enough and I needed confirmation on the bizzare nature of your personality, you have just provided it. > You obviously did not read properly what I wrote and it appears that you do not read what you yourself post. > My words were "One of the premises on which the support for MNIC is based is that it > will help weed out terrorists. A physical identity mapping." > Did I say that Taha supports the MNIC or that Taha holds the premise that MNIC will weed out terrorists. Read properly what I have written and then decide whether you are justified in the content and tone of your response to me. > Doesnt a premise exist in the country that the "MNIC will help weed out terrorists"? Have you yourself not spoken about this premise. That does not mean that you subscribe to it and neither have I attributed it as so. For confirmation : http://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/2009-January/017420.html > Your responses to my postings seem to be triggered by some preconcieved notions about me and prejudices aghainst me that prevent you from thinking or speaking rationally. Your problem, not mine. > I must be one of the very few people on this List who read every single one of your MNIC postings. Read not scan through. MNIC fascinates me even as it disturbs me. > I would have further commented on the co-relationships that do exist in the premises regarding 'weeding out terrorists' in both the MNIC and the "human cognitive' technology, but you Sir are a Closed Mind. Why waste your time and mine. > Kshmendra. > > > --- On *Thu, 4/9/09, Taha Mehmood /<2tahamehmood at googlemail.com>/* wrote: > > From: Taha Mehmood <2tahamehmood at googlemail.com> > Subject: Re: [Reader-list] What after MNIC? The MIND, the final > frontier. > To: kshmendra2005 at yahoo.com > Cc: "reader-list" , "Taha Mehmood" > <2tahamehmood at googlemail.com> > Date: Thursday, April 9, 2009, 6:47 PM > > Dear Kshmendra > > Your reply surprises me even more, for in my postings not only have I never > mentioned anywhere that MNIC would help weed our terrorists but also that, had I > mentioned any such preposterous a thing, then I would have certainly reflected > the said issue in detail. > > I am especially observant of the ways in which the social category of a > 'terrorist' is formed. > > The reason why it surprises me is because of all the persons who might have > interpreted my posting I would not have ever imagined you to read them in such a > manner. > > Further more in all my postings, I have tried to raise questions which might > help us think through the most fundamental question- what do we mean by MNIC. In > this regard I have time and again tried to illustrate by the way of specific > examples and by broad theoretical conceptualizations that it appears as if, the notion central to MNIC card , like that of identity is fundamentally > unresolved. > > I find the idea of MNIC with its unresolved core quite a curious case and to > equate it to this seemingly bizzare technology is indeed uncalled for. Therefore > could I hope that in all future forwards to this list, you would exercise some > restraint before drawing any unwarranted co-relationships? > > Regards > > Taha > > > Kshmendra Kaul wrote: > > Dear Taha > > Your question surprises me. I would have presumed that you have read your > own postings on this List regarding MNIC. > > One of the premises on which the support for MNIC is based is that it > will help weed out terrorists. A physical identity mapping. > > This reported attempt to develop "human cognitive" technology > also presumes that it will help weed out terrorists. A Mind mapping. > > Kshmendra > > --- On *Thu, 4/9/09, Taha Mehmood /<2tahamehmood at googlemail.com>/* > wrote: > > > From: Taha Mehmood <2tahamehmood at googlemail.com> > > Subject: Re: [Reader-list] What after MNIC? The MIND, the final > > frontier. > > To: kshmendra2005 at yahoo.com, "reader-list" > > > Date: Thursday, April 9, 2009, 12:18 AM > > > Dear Kshmendra (and All) > > > This is with respect to your post. Could you please explain what has > the > > development of this new technology got to do with National Identity > Cards > > because on the face to it, they seem like two un-related events. I > would be more > > than happy to benefit from your insights. > > > Regards > > > Taha > > > > >     From rakesh.rnbdj at gmail.com Sun Apr 12 17:55:36 2009 From: rakesh.rnbdj at gmail.com (Rakesh Iyer) Date: Sun, 12 Apr 2009 17:55:36 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] What after MNIC? The MIND, the final frontier. In-Reply-To: <969280.64103.qm@web57208.mail.re3.yahoo.com> References: <49E0C6AC.1070506@gmail.com> <969280.64103.qm@web57208.mail.re3.yahoo.com> Message-ID: Keep on fighting regarding interpretations, constructs, reasons and all, instead of issues and understanding them properly. One day will certainly come when this nation and the world will go to hell, and even then people can continue. Even Ram Mandirs and Babri Masjids then won't help. Regards Rakesh From kshmendra2005 at yahoo.com Sun Apr 12 17:56:35 2009 From: kshmendra2005 at yahoo.com (Kshmendra Kaul) Date: Sun, 12 Apr 2009 05:26:35 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Reader-list] What after MNIC? The MIND, the final frontier. In-Reply-To: <49E0C6AC.1070506@gmail.com> Message-ID: <864970.65114.qm@web57208.mail.re3.yahoo.com> Dear Taha   This is a very interesting response from you. Interesting 'posting' by you.   1. You wrote "There is no need for you to see reason in my posts, because there seems to be nothing reasonable in what you want to interpret."   - What I have wanted to interpret is your responses. Certainly you do not mean to say that there is 'nothing reasonable' in what your responses have been. That is too harsh even if it were to come from me who has seen very little rationality being demonstrated by you.   - Perhaps you meant to say that my interpretations of your responses are not reasonable. I will disagree with that.    - Even if this were true, which it is not, it would still not justify your dictate there is no need for me to see reason in your posts. That is a stupid advisory.   2. You have called my mail 'seemingly logical'. You have not cared to explain that tag. If later in your 'posting' you think you have provided evidence for that, you are terribly mistaken and in fact have badly faltered as I will point out.    3. You have concluded (on the basis of unconnected and quoted out of context attitudes attributed to me) that for me " slandering a person or relying heavily on fallacies like ad hominem are the only rhetorical crutches you have." A generalisation about me but more importantly you have not given any explanation for that on the basis of this particular thread. Noted your comments though and I disagree with your conclusion.   4. You wrote " It is painful, Khsmendra, to see you  first utter a stupid thing and then defend it in this manner."   - I sympathise with your pain. I will request you to specifically quote the 'stupid thing' I have uttered.    LET ME NOW COME TO what has been at the crux of this exchange between you and me.   5. You wrote "This is in addition to four full length papers, which i have posted on the list before i began posting news articles and other materials."   - You used the word 'posted' for your sending to this List 'four full length papers'. Interestingly you used the word 'posting' also for sending to this List ' news articles and other material'.   - With this construct of your sentence you contradict yourself and decimate  the  differentiation you immediately after in your 'posting' try to bring about between "forwards" and "posts" when you write (later)   " ... when I was forwarding News Items or papers I was in a way doing the job of a researcher. Which is to re-search and collect data. I did not filter out those messages where I had a fundamental disagreement with either the content or the formulation or theoretical assumptions of those messages. So they were not my posts but my forwards"   6. You wrote "I did not agree to the content or the context of the structure of the argument of the some of the mails yet I forwarded them."   - Of course you did not and when you first highlighted that in our exchanges I confirmed that understanding of "your posting".    7. One of the problems with you in our exchanges has been my usage of term "your postings". This in spite of my clarifying that by 'your posting' I did not mean that you agreed with or subscribed with all that was contained in "your posting".   - Now in this "posting" you contradict yourself by giving two different interpretations of "posting"   - Any such interpretation by you would be totally incorrect that "posting" should be taken as meaning that the one 'posting' is necessarily the author of the contents of the "posting" (words, pics, audios, videos) or subscribes to or agrees with the contents of the "posting". A "posting"  could be of a "forward" too.   - In the Web World a "posting" could be simply described as "  an e-mail message that is publicly available"   - Here another reference for the word "posting" :   A message sent to a newsgroup or mailing list (may also be called "a post") or the act of sending it. Distinguished from a "letter" or ordinary electronic mail message by the fact that it is broadcast rather than point-to-point. It is not clear whether messages sent to a small mailing list are postings or e-mail; perhaps the best dividing line is that if you don't know the names of all the potential recipients, it is a posting.   8. So Taha, now having hopefully convinced you about what is meant by "posting" (a view you yourself also have held as shown in Pt 5,) your comment of   "fundamental error of assumption in 1.c and 1d" becomes invalid.   9. I had earlier written : " Doesnt a premise exist in the country that the "MNIC will help weed out terrorists"? Have you yourself not spoken about this premise. That does not mean that you subscribe to it and neither have I attributed it as so." For this I had brought to your attention your "posting" http://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/2009-January/017420.html   - In your response while explaining some of the contents of that particular "posting" of yours, you also wrote:   """""  The word 'terrorists' which you have so underlined was used a background to suggest that this is one the ways by which the idea of a national identity card is being proposed. """"" -  How do these words of yours contradict my contention that a)  "premise exist in the country that the "MNIC will help weed out terrorists"?"" AND b)  "you yourself.. (have).. spoken about this premise." ??   - You have only confirmed what I had written and yet for some strange reason still choose to be argumentative about it.   You have signed off your 'posting' with the expectation that there will be "some amount reasonableness in discourse".   I do not agree with you that I have not used 'reason', but I do accuse you of irrational responses and attempts to misinterpret my words and presumptions about what I have written (or think) for which you have no evidence.   It might be a good idea to ask a third person to objectively study the exchanges between us and decide on who has resorted to reason and who has not. Is that acceptable to you? If it is, please do suggest some names and I might find one of them acceptable or suggest some others for you to choose from.   Kshmendra --- On Sat, 4/11/09, Taha Mehmood <2tahamehmood at googlemail.com> wrote: From: Taha Mehmood <2tahamehmood at googlemail.com> Subject: Re: [Reader-list] What after MNIC? The MIND, the final frontier. To: kshmendra2005 at yahoo.com, "reader-list" Date: Saturday, April 11, 2009, 10:04 PM Dear Kshmendra Neither your ability to express in English is atrociously inadequate nor my understanding of the language is extremely poor. There is no need for you to see reason in my posts, because there seems to be nothing reasonable in what you want to interpret. However, I thank you for the pain that you seem have taken to write a seemingly logical mail but I am sorry to say that your post appears just that, 'seemingly logical'. In my earlier exchanges with you I used to get quite worked up by your generous use of adjectives but now it seems to me, that it is not for no reason that you rely on adjectives so much. Since you have, on many occasions made absolutely clear to the members of this list, about your disapproval for theory, your loathe for detailed discussions, and your impatience for views which dwell on core conceptual formulations, I think one can safely conclude that for you, slandering a person or relying heavily on fallacies like ad hominem are the only rhetorical crutches you have. It is painful, Khsmendra, to see you first utter a stupid thing and then defend it in this manner. But having said that, since you have, I respect your effort, so please allow me to answer the points you have raised. 1.a. There are quite a number of posting on this List, by you, on the MNIC issue. -That's true. 1.b. These posting of yours regarding MNIC have predominantly been reproductions of News Items that directly or indirectly refer to the MNIC. Occasionally they have been accompanied by your own comments. There have been other postings by you regarding MNIC which have contained only your comments. -That's correct. This is in addition to four full length papers, which i have posted on the list before i began posting news articles and other materials. 1.c When I was drawing your attention to " ..... your own postings on this List regarding MNIC." I was referring to the complete contents of your postings including the reproduced News Items plus your own comments and NOT your own comments alone. Isn't that the fairer understanding of the term "your postings"? - I would not like to think so. Because in all those instances when I was forwarding News Items or papers I was in a way doing the job of a researcher. Which is to re-search and collect data. I did not filter out those messages where I had a fundamental disagreement with either the content or the formulation or theoretical assumptions of those messages. So they were not my posts but my forwards and I did not agree to the content or the context of the structure of the argument of the some of the mails yet I forwarded them. 1.d Similarly, when I said that "One of the premises on which the support for MNIC is based is that it will help weed out terrorists." and made reference to " ..... your own postings on this List regarding MNIC.", I was again referring to the complete contents of your postings including the reproduced News Items plus your own comments and NOT your own comments alone. Isn't that the fairer understanding of the term "your postings"? - No that is not a fairer understanding of the term 'your posting'. 1e, 1f, 2a, 2b,2c - Does not apply because of fundamental error of assumption in 1.c and 1d 2.d. In the link of your posting that I had provided, you have commented along the following lines: - issue of infiltration and security on the Indian Border. That's true. I have. - political class of our country hell bent ....create a particular perception of fear and security and dole National Identity Card as the sole solution That's correct. - don't want to go in for a blame-the-politician- argument for our social ills, because certainly terrorist attacks happen That's correct. - insofar as the issue of Multiple Purpose National Identity is concerned, the consensus building exercise for the issuance of the card seems to tread multiple lines of argument That is also right. - .... Kargil War occurs-for which intrusion is blamed-fencing of border areas is peddled as a solution ......distribution of identity cards is forwarded as a second option ..... Premise seems to be that MINC will alleviate intrusion of all illegal foreigners. That is right too. - 'Terror' Strikes- Islamic 'terrorists' blamed-since one cannot differentiate between a Pakistani Muslim from a Bangladeshi Muslim from an Indian Muslim from an Indian Hindu, identification of all people is peddled as a solution- (Separating wheat from the chaff argument) Premise seems to be that 'Good' Muslims would be separated from 'Bad' Muslims. That is also right but isn't it clear that there is one core concept here is citizenship. MNIC is peddled as a token to weed out citizens from non citizens. And in the context of 'Islamic Terror' I was referring to the proposed use of MNIC to weed out an Indian Muslim, who is also a law abiding, tax paying citizen in other words a 'good muslim' versus a 'bad muslim' who wants to harm the idea of India by cloaking himself in Indian identity or citizenship to evade detection. The issue here was same to weed out citizens from non citizens. More ever, 'good muslim' 'bad muslim' was deliberately used as a reference point to the work of Mahmud Mamdani by the same name. Wherein he dwells at length about the ways in which social constructs like 'good muslim' or 'bad muslim' came into being and how these constructs are intricately woven into the discourse of modern nation states and how they prefigure in policies and governmental attitudes, especially when it comes to according religious minorities like muslims the status of citizens. The word 'terrorists' which you have so underlined was used a background to suggest that this is one the ways by which the idea of a national identity card is being proposed. The MNIC is not being proposed to 'weed out terrorists' but it is assumed that 'Pakistani Muslims or Bangladeshi Muslims' are sometimes involved in 'terrorist attacks' hence MNIC could act as a filter to weed out Pakistani or Bangladeshi nationals or citizens. If you want to have more discussions on this then I will be more than happy to respond to your mails. At the same time, I expect with all sincerity some amount reasonableness in discourse. With warm regards Taha kshmendra Kaul wrote: > Dear Taha > Either my ability to express myself in English is atrociously inadequate, or your understanding of the language is extremely poor. I see no other reason for what otherwise appears as a persistent compulsion of yours to give such a spin on what has been stated by me that you completely alter the meaning and import of words. > Against the points now raised by you, let me attempt conveying my comments with greater clarity. > 1.a. There are quite a number of posting on this List, by you, on the MNIC issue. > 1.b. These posting of yours regarding MNIC have predominantly been reproductions of News Items that directly or indirectly refer to the MNIC. Occasionally they have been accompanied by your own comments. There have been other postings by you regarding MNIC which have contained only your comments. > 1.c When I was drawing your attention to " ..... your own postings on this List regarding MNIC." I was referring to the complete contents of your postings including the reproduced News Items plus your own comments and NOT your own comments alone. Isn't that the fairer understanding of the term "your postings"? > 1.d Similarly, when I said that "One of the premises on which the support for MNIC is based is that it will help weed out terrorists." and made reference to " ..... your own postings on this List regarding MNIC.", I was again referring to the complete contents of your postings including the reproduced News Items plus your own comments and NOT your own comments alone. Isn't that the fairer understanding of the term "your postings"? > 1.e There was no question of suggesting that you Taha either 'support the MNIC' or that you personally hold a premise that the MNIC "will help weed out terrorists". Your 'bowed hands .. grateful" (whatever that means) sarcasm not withstanding, I have diligently been perusing your postings regarding MNIC and I would be dishonest and would be misrepresenting the facts if I ascribed such positions to you. > 1.f There does seem to be this problem of either (my) lacking in expression or (your) lacking in understanding so you can only take my word for it. Or you can accuse me of dishonesty. Which is also fine with me. 2.a. If perchance you have understood or accepted (in faith) my comments above, it would be needless for me to explain your misunderstanding of my having ascribed to Taha the belief that "MNIC will help weed out terrorists" or holding that premise for "support for MNIC" or being in "support of MNIC" > 2.b You would hopefully have understood that when I wrote "One of the premises on which the support for MNIC is based is that it will help weed out terrorists" it is something brought out in your postings regarding MNIC and does not suggest it as being your position. > 2.c I did clarify this in the earlier posting too but you chose to ignore it. Such a premise does exist in the country and it has directly or indirectly been brought out in your postings. > 2.d. In the link of your posting that I had provided, you have commented along the following lines: > - issue of infiltration and security on the Indian Border. > - political class of our country hell bent ....create a particular perception of fear and security and dole National Identity Card as the sole solution > - don't want to go in for a blame-the-politician- argument for our social ills, because certainly terrorist attacks happen > - insofar as the issue of Multiple Purpose National Identity is concerned, the consensus building exercise for the issuance of the card seems to tread multiple lines of argument > - .... Kargil War occurs-for which intrusion is blamed-fencing of border areas is peddled as a solution ......distribution of identity cards is forwarded as a second option ..... Premise seems to be that MINC will alleviate intrusion of all illegal foreigners > - 'Terror' Strikes- Islamic 'terrorists' blamed-since one cannot differentiate between a Pakistani Muslim from a Bangladeshi Muslim from an Indian Muslim from an Indian Hindu, identification of all people is peddled as a solution- (Separating wheat from the chaff argument) Premise seems to be that 'Good' Muslims would be separated from 'Bad' > Muslims. > 2.e Hopefully Taha, you will understand from the above 'guide words' from your posting that there was no misrepresenting of you when I said " Doesnt a premise exist in the country that the "MNIC will help weed out terrorists"? Have you yourself not spoken about this premise. That does not mean that you subscribe to it and neither have I attributed it as so." > While trying to carefully structure this response to you I again wondered whether I was wasting your time and mine. > Seeing the 'spin' you have given to my words, this one thing I am convinced about though, that "Either my ability to express myself in English is atrociously inadequate, or your understanding of the language is extremely poor." > Kshmendra > From 2tahamehmood at googlemail.com Sun Apr 12 19:03:05 2009 From: 2tahamehmood at googlemail.com (Taha Mehmood) Date: Sun, 12 Apr 2009 14:33:05 +0100 Subject: [Reader-list] What after MNIC? The MIND, the final frontier. In-Reply-To: <969280.64103.qm@web57208.mail.re3.yahoo.com> References: <969280.64103.qm@web57208.mail.re3.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <49E1ED91.1090802@gmail.com> Dear Kshmedra (Dear ALL) Your response is nothing but a red-herring argument therefore I do find my self compelled to reply. I would rather bring back the discussion back to, from where it started, in this regard please allow me to invite all those who are reading this post right now :-) Resolved O:-) Kshmendra Kaul's defense that 'MNIC could be used to weed out terrorists' was a STUPID thing. I would urge everyone to please respond to this mail with a simple yes or no. With warm regards Taha From b_a_r_u_k at yahoo.com Sun Apr 12 19:11:50 2009 From: b_a_r_u_k at yahoo.com (b_a_r_u_k at yahoo.com) Date: Sun, 12 Apr 2009 06:41:50 -0700 Subject: [Reader-list] Check out cool sites I found on StumbleUpon Message-ID: feddabonn's avatar http://www.stumbleupon.com/redirect.php?t=j&u=18664229&d=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.stumbleupon.com%2Fjoin.php%3Ffriend%3D1492612%26emailcode%3Dbh9kkpjkksy607x8&l=1&c=bh9kkpjkksy607x8 Hi, Feddabonn is a member of StumbleUpon and would like to send you an invitation. With StumbleUpon you can discover websites, pictures and videos that match your interests-and discover your friends' Favorites. It is free to join and only takes a minute to sign up! Join StumbleUpon Now & http://www.stumbleupon.com/redirect.php?t=j&u=18664229&d=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.stumbleupon.com%2Fjoin.php%3Ffriend%3D1492612%26emailcode%3Dbh9kkpjkksy607x8&l=2&c=bh9kkpjkksy607x8 - feddabonn About StumbleUpon StumbleUpon is a toolbar that let you discover website, pictures and videos recommended by your friends and like-minded people. It's Free and Easy to download. You have received this email because feddabonn (b_a_r_u_k at yahoo.com) directly invited you to join his/her community on StumbleUpon. If you prefer not to receive any StumbleUpon invitations by email: click here http://www.stumbleupon.com/redirect.php?t=j&u=18664229&d=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.stumbleupon.com%2Fnotifications.php%3Femailcode%3Dbh9kkpjkksy607x8&l=4&c=bh9kkpjkksy607x8 We take your privacy very seriously. To read our privacy policy and see how we use the information you give us, visit our website at http://www.stumbleupon.com/privacy.html http://www.stumbleupon.com/privacy.html From c.anupam at gmail.com Sun Apr 12 19:24:07 2009 From: c.anupam at gmail.com (anupam chakravartty) Date: Sun, 12 Apr 2009 19:24:07 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Check out cool sites I found on StumbleUpon In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <341380d00904120654k7f9c139btf6d48a54f14a50b7@mail.gmail.com> wow... how did you find Sarai to promote your site...anyway we have a lot of people sending all kinds of promos on this site..some of them are party manifestoes. :) On 4/12/09, b_a_r_u_k at yahoo.com wrote: > > feddabonn's avatar > > http://www.stumbleupon.com/redirect.php?t=j&u=18664229&d=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.stumbleupon.com%2Fjoin.php%3Ffriend%3D1492612%26emailcode%3Dbh9kkpjkksy607x8&l=1&c=bh9kkpjkksy607x8 > > Hi, > > > Feddabonn is a member of StumbleUpon and would > like to send you an invitation. With StumbleUpon > you can discover websites, pictures and videos > that match your interests-and discover your > friends' Favorites. > > It is free to join and only takes a minute to sign > up! > > Join StumbleUpon Now & > > http://www.stumbleupon.com/redirect.php?t=j&u=18664229&d=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.stumbleupon.com%2Fjoin.php%3Ffriend%3D1492612%26emailcode%3Dbh9kkpjkksy607x8&l=2&c=bh9kkpjkksy607x8 > > > > > - feddabonn > About StumbleUpon > StumbleUpon is a toolbar that let you discover > website, pictures and videos recommended by your > friends and like-minded people. > > > > It's Free and Easy to download. > You have received this email because feddabonn > (b_a_r_u_k at yahoo.com) directly invited you to join > his/her community on StumbleUpon. > > > > If you prefer not to receive any StumbleUpon > invitations by email: > click here > > http://www.stumbleupon.com/redirect.php?t=j&u=18664229&d=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.stumbleupon.com%2Fnotifications.php%3Femailcode%3Dbh9kkpjkksy607x8&l=4&c=bh9kkpjkksy607x8 > > > > > We take your privacy very seriously. To read our > privacy policy and see how we use the information > you give us, visit our website at > http://www.stumbleupon.com/privacy.html > http://www.stumbleupon.com/privacy.html > > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > subscribe in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: From c.anupam at gmail.com Sun Apr 12 19:47:01 2009 From: c.anupam at gmail.com (anupam chakravartty) Date: Sun, 12 Apr 2009 19:47:01 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] What after MNIC? The MIND, the final frontier. In-Reply-To: <49E1ED91.1090802@gmail.com> References: <969280.64103.qm@web57208.mail.re3.yahoo.com> <49E1ED91.1090802@gmail.com> Message-ID: <341380d00904120717t3fd4305tc3a576ff1b02a677@mail.gmail.com> MNIC is a hogwash...a new money making venture of the bureaucracy...it will bring new terrorists around...who would roam around with guns and ask peaceloving citizens from time to time, show the CARd.. it is a scary thought. On 4/12/09, Taha Mehmood <2tahamehmood at googlemail.com> wrote: > > Dear Kshmedra (Dear ALL) > > Your response is nothing but a red-herring argument therefore I do find > my self compelled to reply. > > I would rather bring back the discussion back to, from where it started, > in this regard please allow me to invite all those who are reading this > post right now :-) > > Resolved O:-) > > Kshmendra Kaul's defense that 'MNIC could be used to weed out > terrorists' was a STUPID thing. > > I would urge everyone to please respond to this mail with a simple yes > or no. > > With warm regards > > Taha > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > subscribe in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> From waliarifi3 at gmail.com Sun Apr 12 19:50:15 2009 From: waliarifi3 at gmail.com (Wali Arifi) Date: Sun, 12 Apr 2009 19:50:15 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Media realities in Kashmir: Just a tip of the iceberg Message-ID: <4fcaee300904120720k6b44c84dm7f488928668370cc@mail.gmail.com> http://www.hindu.com/mag/2009/04/12/stories/2009041250100300.htm MEDIA MATTERS *The Kashmir jigsaw * SEVANTI NINAN In a State without big industries, the media is a growth industry. But things are done a little differently here… The media in Kashmir is relatively immune to the Lok Sabha elections. Varun Gandhi is easily found on the pages of the Jammu press, so is news about the elections in general. Not so in the newspapers in the valley. Not even Chief Minister Omar Abdullah’s pronouncements on both issues get the same prominence here. When you are in Jammu you are in India. When you are in Srinagar you are in Kashmir. If there is an election which journalists here still want to discuss, it is the one which took place last December for the State assembly, not the one that is coming up. The “turnout” continues to be a matter of considerable academic discussion, with dimensions to it which never surface in the national press. Shared legacy What both Jammu and Kashmir have in common though is a thriving media. For a State with a population of around 80 lakhs, the media presence is considerable. There are 71 dailies in Srinagar, the only publishing centre in Kashmir, and some 61 in Jammu. Many of these are referred to as lithos, black and white four pagers. In Jammu even some of the four pagers sport colour. In a State with little industry, media, mysteriously, is a growth industry. There is no media recession here. The year has already seen the launch of a weekly newspaper called *Kashmir Life*, *Rising Kashmir’s *Urdu daily is on the cards, so is the Urdu edition of *The **Kashmir Times* which has long been in the offing, and an English and Hindi newspaper are scheduled to come out of a publishing stable in Jammu. In one to one conversations here, correspondents and editors love doing the math to show you how a paper with a proper editorial set up including reporters, cannot possibly be viable, let alone profitable, on cover price and advertisements alone. The ad flow is more from retail outlets than industry and comes to only a leading handful of publications. The State government has a total annual advertising budget of Rs. 5 crores, which stretches in some years, but is still not adequate to keep some 378 publications in business. And DAVP ads put in by the central government require circulation of an order which less than a handful of publications in the State would have. Supported by the State So who patronises the media in Kashmir with exclusive stories, monetary help, advertising, and bank loans? The many arms of the ruling establishment, including the State government and the intelligence agencies, the Jammu and Kashmir Bank, and the militants, though the local ones are not as well endowed today as they were before. Conflict, as you discover from day one, has been a huge fillip to the media here. Before 1990 there were only three Urdu publications including the Congress organ, *Khidmat*. The only English newspaper, *The Kashmir Times*, was published out of Jammu. Today the numbers tell the story. In some ways, it is a cosy place to be a journalist. Government apartments in Press Colony provide office space for many publications. The enterprising do better: an NDTV correspondent here even occupies a ministerial bungalow. This is also a place where working journalists are media owners: at least three representatives of the Delhi press have publications of their own, though their names do not figure on these. Even young reporters are widely travelled, fellowship programmes in the West covet applicants from this conflict hotspot. There was a time not long ago when you risked your life being a journalist in Kashmir, but not so now. Today, it is the Northeast which is the dangerous place to work. The flip side of all this is a media that is so poorly paid that many journalists do two or three jobs, and some publications are edited and run by government bureaucrats, teachers and lecturers who switch roles after 4 p.m. I met an anchor from the cable TV channel Sen TV who begins his day voicing bulletins for Radio Kashmir, then moves on to a news agency to file five or six stories there, then goes on by evening to the cable channel to help put the evening bulletin in place and anchor it. Local cable channels are meant to give you exposure, not a livelihood. A cameraman gets Rs. 200 a story, a reporter could get Rs. 1500 a month. Backbone The real backbone of J&K journalism is the news agencies: KNS, CNS, UNS, API, PBI and several others. These put out dozens of stories which enable all small newspapers to function without their own reporting staff, both in Jammu and in Srinagar. All the power centres in Kashmir feed these agencies stories, some of which get carried the next day under a newspaper staffer’s byline. It also makes getting media coverage across the State easy. You don’t have to contact lots of reporters. You just to have to give, or leak an item to a news agency. Subscribing to them is not just cheap though in practice it is often free. The editor of an Urdu daily *Nida-I-Mashriq* says, “I have used one agency for the last four years. I have not paid them anything, and they have not asked for anything till this moment. I have never received a bill.” When you are trying to figure out the real picture about the media in Kashmir these are all different pieces of a jigsaw that you have to fit together. * (The author is currently undertaking a Hivos-Panos research project on media in conflict areas which pays for her travel.) * From rakesh.rnbdj at gmail.com Sun Apr 12 19:56:55 2009 From: rakesh.rnbdj at gmail.com (Rakesh Iyer) Date: Sun, 12 Apr 2009 19:56:55 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] What after MNIC? The MIND, the final frontier. In-Reply-To: <341380d00904120717t3fd4305tc3a576ff1b02a677@mail.gmail.com> References: <969280.64103.qm@web57208.mail.re3.yahoo.com> <49E1ED91.1090802@gmail.com> <341380d00904120717t3fd4305tc3a576ff1b02a677@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: Dear all I don't think MNIC (or for that matter police reforms, intelligence and other things) are the way to weed out terrorists; they are only mechanisms at best to make terrorists more careful to avoid such traps. Any police reform, any intelligence activities, any kind of espionage carried out on foreign territory or a MNIC for multiple purposes, are hardly going to be any use. Even if implemented properly, they only ensure that the so-called 'terrorists' are doubly careful about what they do and how to go about their operations. The real threat can be removed when both the Al-qaeda led global network of terror and our Hindutva-led home-grown terrorists are made to look at the real picture of the world, and we have 'ghar vapasi programs' (terminology happily borrowed from RSS programs) of these people by making them shed their ideological baggage. In other words, inki soch ko badalna zaroori hai, to create an inclusive nation and an inclusive world. Otherwise, as I said, we can keep on shouting and mongering, and all of us will definitely go to hell, notwithstanding spurt in temple construction in Kandhamal or mosques in Kerala and the North-East and more devotion to religion and Gods. Regards Rakesh From kshmendra2005 at yahoo.com Sun Apr 12 20:18:26 2009 From: kshmendra2005 at yahoo.com (Kshmendra Kaul) Date: Sun, 12 Apr 2009 07:48:26 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Reader-list] What after MNIC? The MIND, the final frontier. In-Reply-To: <49E1ED91.1090802@gmail.com> Message-ID: <262719.71362.qm@web57204.mail.re3.yahoo.com> Dear Taha   Not only are you a filthy liar, but a shameless one at that too.   I say that on the basis of the following words used by you:   """"" Kshmendra Kaul's defense that 'MNIC could be used to weed out terrorists' """"""   I welcome anyone who has read this thread to confirm this statement of yours with evidence from what I have written. I welcome you to do it. I have just called you a shameless filthy liar. Can you prove me wrong?   For those who might be interested and have not followed this thread, I am reproducing it below.   You also did not have the courage of your convictions to accept my offer that you name some people who can objectively read the full thread and judge whether 'reason' has been used by you or me.   Kshmendra   --- On Sun, 4/12/09, Taha Mehmood <2tahamehmood at googlemail.com> wrote: From: Taha Mehmood <2tahamehmood at googlemail.com> Subject: Re: [Reader-list] What after MNIC? The MIND, the final frontier. To: kshmendra2005 at yahoo.com Cc: "reader-list" Date: Sunday, April 12, 2009, 7:03 PM Dear Kshmedra (Dear ALL) Your response is nothing but a red-herring argument therefore I do find my self compelled to reply. I would rather bring back the discussion back to, from where it started, in this regard please allow me to invite all those who are reading this post right now :-) Resolved O:-) Kshmendra Kaul's defense that 'MNIC could be used to weed out terrorists' was a STUPID thing. I would urge everyone to please respond to this mail with a simple yes or no. With warm regards Taha--- On Sun, 4/12/09, Kshmendra Kaul wrote: From: Kshmendra Kaul Subject: Re: [Reader-list] What after MNIC? The MIND, the final frontier. To: "reader-list" , "Taha Mehmood" <2tahamehmood at googlemail.com> Date: Sunday, April 12, 2009, 5:41 PM Dear Taha   This is a very interesting response from you. Interesting 'posting' by you.   1. You wrote "There is no need for you to see reason in my posts, because there seems to be nothing reasonable in what you want to interpret."   - What I have wanted to interpret is your responses. Certainly you do not mean to say that there is 'nothing reasonable' in what your responses have been. That is too harsh even if it were to come from me who has seen very little rationality being demonstrated by you.   - Perhaps you meant to say that my interpretations of your responses are not reasonable. I will disagree with that.    - Even if this were true, which it is not, it would still not justify your dictate there is no need for me to see reason in your posts. That is a stupid advisory.   2. You have called my mail 'seemingly logical'. You have not cared to explain that tag. If later in your 'posting' you think you have provided evidence for that, you are terribly mistaken and in fact have badly faltered as I will point out.    3. You have concluded (on the basis of unconnected and quoted out of context attitudes attributed to me) that for me " slandering a person or relying heavily on fallacies like ad hominem are the only rhetorical crutches you have." A generalisation about me but more importantly you have not given any explanation for that on the basis of this particular thread. Noted your comments though and I disagree with your conclusion.   4. You wrote " It is painful, Khsmendra, to see you  first utter a stupid thing and then defend it in this manner."   - I sympathise with your pain. I will request you to specifically quote the 'stupid thing' I have uttered.    LET ME NOW COME TO what has been at the crux of this exchange between you and me.   5. You wrote "This is in addition to four full length papers, which i have posted on the list before i began posting news articles and other materials."   - You used the word 'posted' for your sending to this List 'four full length papers'. Interestingly you used the word 'posting' also for sending to this List ' news articles and other material'.   - With this construct of your sentence you contradict yourself and decimate  the  differentiation you immediately after in your 'posting' try to bring about between "forwards" and "posts" when you write (later)   " ... when I was forwarding News Items or papers I was in a way doing the job of a researcher. Which is to re-search and collect data. I did not filter out those messages where I had a fundamental disagreement with either the content or the formulation or theoretical assumptions of those messages. So they were not my posts but my forwards"   6. You wrote "I did not agree to the content or the context of the structure of the argument of the some of the mails yet I forwarded them."   - Of course you did not and when you first highlighted that in our exchanges I confirmed that understanding of "your posting".    7. One of the problems with you in our exchanges has been my usage of term "your postings". This in spite of my clarifying that by 'your posting' I did not mean that you agreed with or subscribed with all that was contained in "your posting".   - Now in this "posting" you contradict yourself by giving two different interpretations of "posting"   - Any such interpretation by you would be totally incorrect that "posting" should be taken as meaning that the one 'posting' is necessarily the author of the contents of the "posting" (words, pics, audios, videos) or subscribes to or agrees with the contents of the "posting". A "posting"  could be of a "forward" too.   - In the Web World a "posting" could be simply described as "  an e-mail message that is publicly available"   - Here another reference for the word "posting" :   A message sent to a newsgroup or mailing list (may also be called "a post") or the act of sending it. Distinguished from a "letter" or ordinary electronic mail message by the fact that it is broadcast rather than point-to-point. It is not clear whether messages sent to a small mailing list are postings or e-mail; perhaps the best dividing line is that if you don't know the names of all the potential recipients, it is a posting.   8. So Taha, now having hopefully convinced you about what is meant by "posting" (a view you yourself also have held as shown in Pt 5,) your comment of   "fundamental error of assumption in 1.c and 1d" becomes invalid.   9. I had earlier written : " Doesnt a premise exist in the country that the "MNIC will help weed out terrorists"? Have you yourself not spoken about this premise. That does not mean that you subscribe to it and neither have I attributed it as so." For this I had brought to your attention your "posting" http://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/2009-January/017420.html   - In your response while explaining some of the contents of that particular "posting" of yours, you also wrote:   """""  The word 'terrorists' which you have so underlined was used a background to suggest that this is one the ways by which the idea of a national identity card is being proposed. """"" -  How do these words of yours contradict my contention that a)  "premise exist in the country that the "MNIC will help weed out terrorists"?"" AND b)  "you yourself.. (have).. spoken about this premise." ??   - You have only confirmed what I had written and yet for some strange reason still choose to be argumentative about it.   You have signed off your 'posting' with the expectation that there will be "some amount reasonableness in discourse".   I do not agree with you that I have not used 'reason', but I do accuse you of irrational responses and attempts to misinterpret my words and presumptions about what I have written (or think) for which you have no evidence.   It might be a good idea to ask a third person to objectively study the exchanges between us and decide on who has resorted to reason and who has not. Is that acceptable to you? If it is, please do suggest some names and I might find one of them acceptable or suggest some others for you to choose from.   Kshmendra   --- On Sat, 4/11/09, Taha Mehmood <2tahamehmood at googlemail.com> wrote: From: Taha Mehmood <2tahamehmood at googlemail.com> Subject: Re: [Reader-list] What after MNIC? The MIND, the final frontier. To: kshmendra2005 at yahoo.com, "reader-list" Date: Saturday, April 11, 2009, 10:04 PM Dear Kshmendra Neither your ability to express in English is atrociously inadequate nor my understanding of the language is extremely poor. There is no need for you to see reason in my posts, because there seems to be nothing reasonable in what you want to interpret. However, I thank you for the pain that you seem have taken to write a seemingly logical mail but I am sorry to say that your post appears just that, 'seemingly logical'. In my earlier exchanges with you I used to get quite worked up by your generous use of adjectives but now it seems to me, that it is not for no reason that you rely on adjectives so much. Since you have, on many occasions made absolutely clear to the members of this list, about your disapproval for theory, your loathe for detailed discussions, and your impatience for views which dwell on core conceptual formulations, I think one can safely conclude that for you, slandering a person or relying heavily on fallacies like ad hominem are the only rhetorical crutches you have. It is painful, Khsmendra, to see you first utter a stupid thing and then defend it in this manner. But having said that, since you have, I respect your effort, so please allow me to answer the points you have raised. 1.a. There are quite a number of posting on this List, by you, on the MNIC issue. -That's true. 1.b. These posting of yours regarding MNIC have predominantly been reproductions of News Items that directly or indirectly refer to the MNIC. Occasionally they have been accompanied by your own comments. There have been other postings by you regarding MNIC which have contained only your comments. -That's correct. This is in addition to four full length papers, which i have posted on the list before i began posting news articles and other materials. 1.c When I was drawing your attention to " ..... your own postings on this List regarding MNIC." I was referring to the complete contents of your postings including the reproduced News Items plus your own comments and NOT your own comments alone. Isn't that the fairer understanding of the term "your postings"? - I would not like to think so. Because in all those instances when I was forwarding News Items or papers I was in a way doing the job of a researcher. Which is to re-search and collect data. I did not filter out those messages where I had a fundamental disagreement with either the content or the formulation or theoretical assumptions of those messages. So they were not my posts but my forwards and I did not agree to the content or the context of the structure of the argument of the some of the mails yet I forwarded them. 1.d Similarly, when I said that "One of the premises on which the support for MNIC is based is that it will help weed out terrorists." and made reference to " ..... your own postings on this List regarding MNIC.", I was again referring to the complete contents of your postings including the reproduced News Items plus your own comments and NOT your own comments alone. Isn't that the fairer understanding of the term "your postings"? - No that is not a fairer understanding of the term 'your posting'. 1e, 1f, 2a, 2b,2c - Does not apply because of fundamental error of assumption in 1.c and 1d 2.d. In the link of your posting that I had provided, you have commented along the following lines: - issue of infiltration and security on the Indian Border. That's true. I have. - political class of our country hell bent ....create a particular perception of fear and security and dole National Identity Card as the sole solution That's correct. - don't want to go in for a blame-the-politician- argument for our social ills, because certainly terrorist attacks happen That's correct. - insofar as the issue of Multiple Purpose National Identity is concerned, the consensus building exercise for the issuance of the card seems to tread multiple lines of argument That is also right. - .... Kargil War occurs-for which intrusion is blamed-fencing of border areas is peddled as a solution ......distribution of identity cards is forwarded as a second option ..... Premise seems to be that MINC will alleviate intrusion of all illegal foreigners. That is right too. - 'Terror' Strikes- Islamic 'terrorists' blamed-since one cannot differentiate between a Pakistani Muslim from a Bangladeshi Muslim from an Indian Muslim from an Indian Hindu, identification of all people is peddled as a solution- (Separating wheat from the chaff argument) Premise seems to be that 'Good' Muslims would be separated from 'Bad' Muslims. That is also right but isn't it clear that there is one core concept here is citizenship. MNIC is peddled as a token to weed out citizens from non citizens. And in the context of 'Islamic Terror' I was referring to the proposed use of MNIC to weed out an Indian Muslim, who is also a law abiding, tax paying citizen in other words a 'good muslim' versus a 'bad muslim' who wants to harm the idea of India by cloaking himself in Indian identity or citizenship to evade detection. The issue here was same to weed out citizens from non citizens. More ever, 'good muslim' 'bad muslim' was deliberately used as a reference point to the work of Mahmud Mamdani by the same name. Wherein he dwells at length about the ways in which social constructs like 'good muslim' or 'bad muslim' came into being and how these constructs are intricately woven into the discourse of modern nation states and how they prefigure in policies and governmental attitudes, especially when it comes to according religious minorities like muslims the status of citizens. The word 'terrorists' which you have so underlined was used a background to suggest that this is one the ways by which the idea of a national identity card is being proposed. The MNIC is not being proposed to 'weed out terrorists' but it is assumed that 'Pakistani Muslims or Bangladeshi Muslims' are sometimes involved in 'terrorist attacks' hence MNIC could act as a filter to weed out Pakistani or Bangladeshi nationals or citizens. If you want to have more discussions on this then I will be more than happy to respond to your mails. At the same time, I expect with all sincerity some amount reasonableness in discourse. With warm regards Taha kshmendra Kaul wrote: > Dear Taha > Either my ability to express myself in English is atrociously inadequate, or your understanding of the language is extremely poor. I see no other reason for what otherwise appears as a persistent compulsion of yours to give such a spin on what has been stated by me that you completely alter the meaning and import of words. > Against the points now raised by you, let me attempt conveying my comments with greater clarity. > 1.a. There are quite a number of posting on this List, by you, on the MNIC issue. > 1.b. These posting of yours regarding MNIC have predominantly been reproductions of News Items that directly or indirectly refer to the MNIC. Occasionally they have been accompanied by your own comments. There have been other postings by you regarding MNIC which have contained only your comments. > 1.c When I was drawing your attention to " ..... your own postings on this List regarding MNIC." I was referring to the complete contents of your postings including the reproduced News Items plus your own comments and NOT your own comments alone. Isn't that the fairer understanding of the term "your postings"? > 1.d Similarly, when I said that "One of the premises on which the support for MNIC is based is that it will help weed out terrorists." and made reference to " ..... your own postings on this List regarding MNIC.", I was again referring to the complete contents of your postings including the reproduced News Items plus your own comments and NOT your own comments alone. Isn't that the fairer understanding of the term "your postings"? > 1.e There was no question of suggesting that you Taha either 'support the MNIC' or that you personally hold a premise that the MNIC "will help weed out terrorists". Your 'bowed hands .. grateful" (whatever that means) sarcasm not withstanding, I have diligently been perusing your postings regarding MNIC and I would be dishonest and would be misrepresenting the facts if I ascribed such positions to you. > 1.f There does seem to be this problem of either (my) lacking in expression or (your) lacking in understanding so you can only take my word for it. Or you can accuse me of dishonesty. Which is also fine with me. 2.a. If perchance you have understood or accepted (in faith) my comments above, it would be needless for me to explain your misunderstanding of my having ascribed to Taha the belief that "MNIC will help weed out terrorists" or holding that premise for "support for MNIC" or being in "support of MNIC" > 2.b You would hopefully have understood that when I wrote "One of the premises on which the support for MNIC is based is that it will help weed out terrorists" it is something brought out in your postings regarding MNIC and does not suggest it as being your position. > 2.c I did clarify this in the earlier posting too but you chose to ignore it. Such a premise does exist in the country and it has directly or indirectly been brought out in your postings. > 2.d. In the link of your posting that I had provided, you have commented along the following lines: > - issue of infiltration and security on the Indian Border. > - political class of our country hell bent ....create a particular perception of fear and security and dole National Identity Card as the sole solution > - don't want to go in for a blame-the-politician- argument for our social ills, because certainly terrorist attacks happen > - insofar as the issue of Multiple Purpose National Identity is concerned, the consensus building exercise for the issuance of the card seems to tread multiple lines of argument > - .... Kargil War occurs-for which intrusion is blamed-fencing of border areas is peddled as a solution ......distribution of identity cards is forwarded as a second option ..... Premise seems to be that MINC will alleviate intrusion of all illegal foreigners > - 'Terror' Strikes- Islamic 'terrorists' blamed-since one cannot differentiate between a Pakistani Muslim from a Bangladeshi Muslim from an Indian Muslim from an Indian Hindu, identification of all people is peddled as a solution- (Separating wheat from the chaff argument) Premise seems to be that 'Good' Muslims would be separated from 'Bad' > Muslims. > 2.e Hopefully Taha, you will understand from the above 'guide words' from your posting that there was no misrepresenting of you when I said " Doesnt a premise exist in the country that the "MNIC will help weed out terrorists"? Have you yourself not spoken about this premise. That does not mean that you subscribe to it and neither have I attributed it as so." > While trying to carefully structure this response to you I again wondered whether I was wasting your time and mine. > Seeing the 'spin' you have given to my words, this one thing I am convinced about though, that "Either my ability to express myself in English is atrociously inadequate, or your understanding of the language is extremely poor." > Kshmendra > --- On Thu, 4/9/09, Taha Mehmood <2tahamehmood at googlemail.com> wrote: From: Taha Mehmood <2tahamehmood at googlemail.com> Subject: Re: [Reader-list] What after MNIC? The MIND, the final frontier. To: kshmendra2005 at yahoo.com, "reader-list" Date: Thursday, April 9, 2009, 10:05 PM Dear Khsmendra Thank you for your post. Please allow me to reply with utmost sincerity the most well thought out and valid points raised in your post. 1. In the mail below, you state-Did I say that Taha supports the MNIC or that Taha holds the premise that MNIC will weed out terrorists. In the mail, below the mail below, you state- I would have presumed that you have read your own postings on this List regarding MNIC. One of the premises on which the support for MNIC is based is that it will help weed out terrorists. - So it seems that YES you did mean, inadvertently perhaps, that I support an outrageous premise the MNIC would be used to help weed out terrorist, since there seems to be no other person, in the recent past, who have consistently posted on and about MNIC as I have. And for the sake of clarity please allow me to state -I have never, I REPEAT, I HAVE NEVER ever, uttered that MNIC could be used to weed out terrorists. That would deplorable on my part. 2. You state- Doesnt a premise exist in the country that the "MNIC will help weed out terrorists"? Have you yourself not spoken about this premise. That does not mean that you subscribe to it and neither have I attributed it as so. For confirmation : http://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/2009-January/017420.html I most humbly thank you for providing the link and I would be very grateful if you could kindly go through the post and then share it with members of the reader list, which reasonably proves, that I have indeed written a fantastically imagined premise that 'MNIC is indeed needed to weed out terrorists'. On earlier occasions, I have made everyone known that in so far as my position on MNIC is concerned being an Indian citizen, if my government choose to provide for a MNIC card, then I will also have one. But please rest assured in all these four years, had I ever read, sensed or concluded by a cursory or a detailed reading of papers related to MNIC, that MNIC is also going to be used to weed out terrorists, then, I would have used every conceivable way to reasonably argue against such a card. The reason being thus- A statement which contends that, 'MNIC will be used to weed out terrorists' assumes, that it is known to the members of the state, who all will reasonably come under the category of 'Terrorist'. Thus any person who satisfies all the criteria of being a 'Terrorist' may be reasonably granted the status of a 'Terrorist' but as we all know that 'Terrorist' is a highly unclear category. There does not exist a clear definition of the term. There is a lot of scope for categorical slippage. Therefore no government agency anywhere in this world has thus far made an audaciously foolish proposal to capture 'Terrorists' while using a biometric National identity card. Although it may not be ruled that as far as the realm of fantasy is concerned there might be exist many deranged officials out there who might be thinking of subjecting the national identity card regime to such a use. It gives me utmost satisfaction to know that there exists at least one person on this list who is a regular reader of my posts, I, with, bowed hands am grateful to you, however, I think, it would bring me all the more joy, if you could, not only read but deduce reasonably, my rather inarticulate sketches on the proposed Multiple purpose National Identity Card. Warm regards Taha Kshmendra Kaul wrote: > Dear Taha > If past experiences with you were not enough and I needed confirmation on the bizzare nature of your personality, you have just provided it. > You obviously did not read properly what I wrote and it appears that you do not read what you yourself post. > My words were "One of the premises on which the support for MNIC is based is that it > will help weed out terrorists. A physical identity mapping." > Did I say that Taha supports the MNIC or that Taha holds the premise that MNIC will weed out terrorists. Read properly what I have written and then decide whether you are justified in the content and tone of your response to me. > Doesnt a premise exist in the country that the "MNIC will help weed out terrorists"? Have you yourself not spoken about this premise. That does not mean that you subscribe to it and neither have I attributed it as so. For confirmation : http://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/2009-January/017420.html > Your responses to my postings seem to be triggered by some preconcieved notions about me and prejudices aghainst me that prevent you from thinking or speaking rationally. Your problem, not mine. > I must be one of the very few people on this List who read every single one of your MNIC postings. Read not scan through. MNIC fascinates me even as it disturbs me. > I would have further commented on the co-relationships that do exist in the premises regarding 'weeding out terrorists' in both the MNIC and the "human cognitive' technology, but you Sir are a Closed Mind. Why waste your time and mine. > Kshmendra. > > > --- On *Thu, 4/9/09, Taha Mehmood /<2tahamehmood at googlemail.com>/* wrote: > > From: Taha Mehmood <2tahamehmood at googlemail.com> > Subject: Re: [Reader-list] What after MNIC? The MIND, the final > frontier. > To: kshmendra2005 at yahoo.com > Cc: "reader-list" , "Taha Mehmood" > <2tahamehmood at googlemail.com> > Date: Thursday, April 9, 2009, 6:47 PM > > Dear Kshmendra > > Your reply surprises me even more, for in my postings not only have I never > mentioned anywhere that MNIC would help weed our terrorists but also that, had I > mentioned any such preposterous a thing, then I would have certainly reflected > the said issue in detail. > > I am especially observant of the ways in which the social category of a > 'terrorist' is formed. > > The reason why it surprises me is because of all the persons who might have > interpreted my posting I would not have ever imagined you to read them in such a > manner. > > Further more in all my postings, I have tried to raise questions which might > help us think through the most fundamental question- what do we mean by MNIC. In > this regard I have time and again tried to illustrate by the way of specific > examples and by broad theoretical conceptualizations that it appears as if, the notion central to MNIC card , like that of identity is fundamentally > unresolved. > > I find the idea of MNIC with its unresolved core quite a curious case and to > equate it to this seemingly bizzare technology is indeed uncalled for. Therefore > could I hope that in all future forwards to this list, you would exercise some > restraint before drawing any unwarranted co-relationships? > > Regards > > Taha > > > Kshmendra Kaul wrote: > > Dear Taha > > Your question surprises me. I would have presumed that you have read your > own postings on this List regarding MNIC. > > One of the premises on which the support for MNIC is based is that it > will help weed out terrorists. A physical identity mapping. > > This reported attempt to develop "human cognitive" technology > also presumes that it will help weed out terrorists. A Mind mapping. > > Kshmendra > > --- On *Thu, 4/9/09, Taha Mehmood /<2tahamehmood at googlemail.com>/* > wrote: > > > From: Taha Mehmood <2tahamehmood at googlemail.com> > > Subject: Re: [Reader-list] What after MNIC? The MIND, the final > > frontier. > > To: kshmendra2005 at yahoo.com, "reader-list" > > > Date: Thursday, April 9, 2009, 12:18 AM > > > Dear Kshmendra (and All) > > > This is with respect to your post. Could you please explain what has > the > > development of this new technology got to do with National Identity > Cards > > because on the face to it, they seem like two un-related events. I > would be more > > than happy to benefit from your insights. > > > Regards > > > Taha > > > > > From 2tahamehmood at googlemail.com Sun Apr 12 20:20:58 2009 From: 2tahamehmood at googlemail.com (Taha Mehmood) Date: Sun, 12 Apr 2009 15:50:58 +0100 Subject: [Reader-list] What after MNIC? The MIND, the final frontier. In-Reply-To: <864970.65114.qm@web57208.mail.re3.yahoo.com> References: <864970.65114.qm@web57208.mail.re3.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <49E1FFD2.3050602@gmail.com> Dear Kshmendra How could someone who demonstrates so little rationality worthy of so much of attention from you? Maybe stuff I utter is not completely irrational at all. So lets get back to the point. 1.The proposed MNIC will not be used to weed out terrorists. 2. There cannot be any technology which could read the mind of terrorist. Regards Taha From kshmendra2005 at yahoo.com Sun Apr 12 20:34:41 2009 From: kshmendra2005 at yahoo.com (Kshmendra Kaul) Date: Sun, 12 Apr 2009 08:04:41 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Reader-list] What after MNIC? The MIND, the final frontier. In-Reply-To: <49E1FFD2.3050602@gmail.com> Message-ID: <56338.57343.qm@web57205.mail.re3.yahoo.com> Dear Taha   I am ignoring the contents of this mail of yours.   But I will use this opportunity to repeat what I said about you in my last posting. You are a shamelessly filthy liar.   Kshmendra --- On Sun, 4/12/09, Taha Mehmood <2tahamehmood at googlemail.com> wrote: From: Taha Mehmood <2tahamehmood at googlemail.com> Subject: Re: [Reader-list] What after MNIC? The MIND, the final frontier. To: kshmendra2005 at yahoo.com Cc: "reader-list" , "Taha Mehmood" <2tahamehmood at googlemail.com> Date: Sunday, April 12, 2009, 8:20 PM Dear Kshmendra How could someone who demonstrates so little rationality worthy of so much of attention from you? Maybe stuff I utter is not completely irrational at all. So lets get back to the point. 1.The proposed MNIC will not be used to weed out terrorists. 2. There cannot be any technology which could read the mind of terrorist. Regards Taha From 2tahamehmood at googlemail.com Sun Apr 12 20:50:20 2009 From: 2tahamehmood at googlemail.com (Taha Mehmood) Date: Sun, 12 Apr 2009 16:20:20 +0100 Subject: [Reader-list] What after MNIC? The MIND, the final frontier. In-Reply-To: <262719.71362.qm@web57204.mail.re3.yahoo.com> References: <262719.71362.qm@web57204.mail.re3.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <49E206B4.4030608@gmail.com> Dear Kshmendra By now everyone knows that ad hominem argumentation, spiced with invectives is your forte. I will allow you to compete alone in this department. I wish you all the best. As for me, I cannot play all the roles of defendant, prosecutor, witness, jury, judge, correspondent, reporter and the audience. So I will not judge you. I am a simple researcher Sir and I believe that to drag the idea of MINC together with a bizzare thought experiment was not required at all. However please rest assured that no national identity card can help weed out terrorists. and no technology can read the mind of terrorists. Any statement which contradict the above is fallacious because it will presume before hand who the 'terrorist' is. And a person can only be called a terrorist after an event has occurred. Evidence related to a conspiracy to commit an unlawful act is established. So any attempt to frame as simple a thing as a news story as ' What after MNIC? The MIND, the final frontier.' is wrong and uncalled for and does not fall within the purview of reason. With warm regards Taha From vivek at sarai.net Sun Apr 12 21:19:56 2009 From: vivek at sarai.net (Vivek Narayanan) Date: Sun, 12 Apr 2009 21:19:56 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] What after MNIC? The MIND, the final frontier. In-Reply-To: <49E1ED91.1090802@gmail.com> References: <969280.64103.qm@web57208.mail.re3.yahoo.com> <49E1ED91.1090802@gmail.com> Message-ID: <49E20DA4.1060700@sarai.net> Dear Taha, I'm surprised that you would question the obvious usefulness of the MNIC in weeding out terrorists. It's very simple-- the card, in addition to the photograph, would have a column entitled "OCCUPATION", correct? So under "OCCUPATION", all terrorists could be required to kindly enter their profession as, "TERRORIST"-- and then we would know exactly who they were, when they presented their card! We would not even need to read their mind first :) Vivek Taha Mehmood wrote: > Dear Kshmedra (Dear ALL) > > Your response is nothing but a red-herring argument therefore I do find > my self compelled to reply. > > I would rather bring back the discussion back to, from where it started, > in this regard please allow me to invite all those who are reading this > post right now :-) > > Resolved O:-) > > Kshmendra Kaul's defense that 'MNIC could be used to weed out > terrorists' was a STUPID thing. > > I would urge everyone to please respond to this mail with a simple yes > or no. > > With warm regards > > Taha > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with subscribe in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> From 2tahamehmood at googlemail.com Sun Apr 12 21:37:06 2009 From: 2tahamehmood at googlemail.com (Taha Mehmood) Date: Sun, 12 Apr 2009 17:07:06 +0100 Subject: [Reader-list] What after MNIC? The MIND, the final frontier. In-Reply-To: <49E20DA4.1060700@sarai.net> References: <969280.64103.qm@web57208.mail.re3.yahoo.com> <49E1ED91.1090802@gmail.com> <49E20DA4.1060700@sarai.net> Message-ID: <49E211AA.3070403@gmail.com> Dear Vivek, Thank you for frothing. I guess it is my unreasonableness to see the obvious which prevents me to perceive this apparent fact. I guess you are right after all. But before I end this with a nervous sounding lol, let me tell you I am also a shamelessly filthy liar so maybe all this while I might have known secretly that one could easily declare ones job profile as a terrorist, but given the bizzare nature of my personality, I choose to write peurile responses. With lots of snubs Taha Vivek Narayanan wrote: > Dear Taha, > > I'm surprised that you would question the obvious usefulness of the > MNIC in weeding out terrorists. > > It's very simple-- the card, in addition to the photograph, would have > a column entitled "OCCUPATION", correct? > So under "OCCUPATION", all terrorists could be required to kindly > enter their profession as, "TERRORIST"-- and then we would know > exactly who they were, when they presented their card! We would not > even need to read their mind first :) > > Vivek > > Taha Mehmood wrote: >> Dear Kshmedra (Dear ALL) >> >> Your response is nothing but a red-herring argument therefore I do >> find my self compelled to reply. >> >> I would rather bring back the discussion back to, from where it >> started, in this regard please allow me to invite all those who are >> reading this post right now :-) >> >> Resolved O:-) >> >> Kshmendra Kaul's defense that 'MNIC could be used to weed out >> terrorists' was a STUPID thing. >> >> I would urge everyone to please respond to this mail with a simple >> yes or no. >> >> With warm regards >> >> Taha >> _________________________________________ >> reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. >> Critiques & Collaborations >> To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with >> subscribe in the subject header. >> To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list >> List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> > > > From kshmendra2005 at yahoo.com Sun Apr 12 21:40:21 2009 From: kshmendra2005 at yahoo.com (Kshmendra Kaul) Date: Sun, 12 Apr 2009 09:10:21 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Reader-list] What after MNIC? The MIND, the final frontier. In-Reply-To: <49E206B4.4030608@gmail.com> Message-ID: <500214.89910.qm@web57206.mail.re3.yahoo.com> Dear Taha   I am ignoring the contents of this posting too of yours.   But I do take this opportunity to accuse you for the third time that you are a shamelessly filthy liar.   I say that on the basis of the following words used by you:   """"" Kshmendra Kaul's defense that 'MNIC could be used to weed out terrorists' """"""   I still welcome you (or anyone who has read this thread) to confirm this statement of yours with evidence from what I have written.    I have just called you, yet once again, a shameless filthy liar. Can you prove me wrong?   You also did not have the courage of your convictions to accept my offer that you name some people who can objectively read the full thread and judge whether 'reason' has been used by you or me.   Kshmendra --- On Sun, 4/12/09, Taha Mehmood <2tahamehmood at googlemail.com> wrote: From: Taha Mehmood <2tahamehmood at googlemail.com> Subject: Re: [Reader-list] What after MNIC? The MIND, the final frontier. To: kshmendra2005 at yahoo.com Cc: "Taha Mehmood" <2tahamehmood at googlemail.com>, "reader-list" Date: Sunday, April 12, 2009, 8:50 PM Dear Kshmendra By now everyone knows that ad hominem argumentation, spiced with invectives is your forte. I will allow you to compete alone in this department. I wish you all the best. As for me, I cannot play all the roles of defendant, prosecutor, witness, jury, judge, correspondent, reporter and the audience. So I will not judge you. I am a simple researcher Sir and I believe that to drag the idea of MINC together with a bizzare thought experiment was not required at all. However please rest assured that no national identity card can help weed out terrorists. and no technology can read the mind of terrorists. Any statement which contradict the above is fallacious because it will presume before hand who the 'terrorist' is. And a person can only be called a terrorist after an event has occurred. Evidence related to a conspiracy to commit an unlawful act is established. So any attempt to frame as simple a thing as a news story as ' What after MNIC? The MIND, the final frontier.' is wrong and uncalled for and does not fall within the purview of reason. With warm regards Taha From amitabh at sarai.net Sun Apr 12 21:47:10 2009 From: amitabh at sarai.net (Amitabh Kumar) Date: Sun, 12 Apr 2009 21:47:10 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] What after MNIC? The MIND, the final frontier. In-Reply-To: <49E20DA4.1060700@sarai.net> References: <969280.64103.qm@web57208.mail.re3.yahoo.com> <49E1ED91.1090802@gmail.com> <49E20DA4.1060700@sarai.net> Message-ID: Such hostility. So many 'Dears'. On Sun, Apr 12, 2009 at 9:19 PM, Vivek Narayanan wrote: > Dear Taha, > > I'm surprised that you would question the obvious usefulness of the MNIC > in weeding out terrorists. > > It's very simple-- the card, in addition to the photograph, would have a > column entitled "OCCUPATION", correct? > > So under "OCCUPATION", all terrorists could be required to kindly enter > their profession as, "TERRORIST"-- and then we would know exactly who > they were, when they presented their card! We would not even need to > read their mind first :) > > Vivek > > Taha Mehmood wrote: > > Dear Kshmedra (Dear ALL) > > > > Your response is nothing but a red-herring argument therefore I do find > > my self compelled to reply. > > > > I would rather bring back the discussion back to, from where it started, > > in this regard please allow me to invite all those who are reading this > > post right now :-) > > > > Resolved O:-) > > > > Kshmendra Kaul's defense that 'MNIC could be used to weed out > > terrorists' was a STUPID thing. > > > > I would urge everyone to please respond to this mail with a simple yes > > or no. > > > > With warm regards > > > > Taha > > _________________________________________ > > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > > Critiques & Collaborations > > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > subscribe in the subject header. > > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> > > > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > subscribe in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> > -- www.amitabhkumar.blogspot.com From rakesh.rnbdj at gmail.com Sun Apr 12 21:55:00 2009 From: rakesh.rnbdj at gmail.com (Rakesh Iyer) Date: Sun, 12 Apr 2009 21:55:00 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] What after MNIC? The MIND, the final frontier. In-Reply-To: References: <969280.64103.qm@web57208.mail.re3.yahoo.com> <49E1ED91.1090802@gmail.com> <49E20DA4.1060700@sarai.net> Message-ID: Dear all Now the forum is becoming a source of entertainment for others, which is not what is intended here. Please stop accusing each other and snubbing as well. And let us get better to discuss issues. If both of you (Mr Kshamendra & Mr Taha) have issues with each other, though I am younger (and may be exceeding my brief, for which I am sorry), I would advise you to sort out the matter amongst yourself. Let us not make personalized accusations on this forum. After all, we are human beings, not animals out to cut each other's throat. Regards Rakesh From 2tahamehmood at googlemail.com Sun Apr 12 22:02:43 2009 From: 2tahamehmood at googlemail.com (Taha Mehmood) Date: Sun, 12 Apr 2009 17:32:43 +0100 Subject: [Reader-list] What after MNIC? The MIND, the final frontier. In-Reply-To: <500214.89910.qm@web57206.mail.re3.yahoo.com> References: <500214.89910.qm@web57206.mail.re3.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <49E217AB.3030602@gmail.com> Dear Kshmendra I refuse to be provoked. You will have to try harder Sir. Could I suggest calling me a 'shameless filthy liar' was a rather poor attempt. You see. I would love if each and every member of the reader list read the whole thread objectively and judge whether your interpretation my 'posts', which was so clearly articulated in the third mail on this thread, as follows -'One of the premises on which the support for MNIC is based is that it will help weed out terrorists.' is -reasonable- or not. I contend that it is not, furthermore I also contend that there seems to be a grave error of judgment on your part. No one can reasonably deduce or adduce from my posts that I have ever implied or suggested or indicated directly or indirectly that a national identity card will help weed out terrorists. Although I have implied or suggested or indicated directly or indirectly that a national identity card will help weed out 'Illegal immigrants' Yes; 'Legitimate Recipients' of State funding; Yes. Gender. Yes; Date of birth. Yes; Marital Status. Yes; Address Proof. Yes; Photographs. Yes; Biometric Identification. Yes; Terrorists. NO SIR. Please go ahead and invite anyone to read and I will be more than happy to respond. With warm regards Taha Kshmendra Kaul wrote: > Dear Taha > > I am ignoring the contents of this posting too of yours. > > But I do take this opportunity to accuse you for the third time that > you are a shamelessly filthy liar. > > I say that on the basis of the following words used by you: > > """"" Kshmendra Kaul's defense that 'MNIC could be used to weed out > terrorists' """""" > > I still welcome you (or anyone who has read this thread) to confirm > this statement of yours with evidence from what I have written. > > I have just called you, yet once again, a shameless filthy liar. Can > you prove me wrong? > > You also did not have the courage of your convictions to accept my > offer that you name some people who can objectively read the full > thread and judge whether 'reason' has been used by you or me. > > Kshmendra > > --- On *Sun, 4/12/09, Taha Mehmood /<2tahamehmood at googlemail.com>/* wrote: > > From: Taha Mehmood <2tahamehmood at googlemail.com> > Subject: Re: [Reader-list] What after MNIC? The MIND, the final > frontier. > To: kshmendra2005 at yahoo.com > Cc: "Taha Mehmood" <2tahamehmood at googlemail.com>, "reader-list" > > Date: Sunday, April 12, 2009, 8:50 PM > > Dear Kshmendra > > By now everyone knows that ad hominem argumentation, spiced with invectives is > your forte. I will allow you to compete alone in this department. I wish you all > the best. As for me, I cannot play all the roles of defendant, prosecutor, > witness, jury, judge, correspondent, reporter and the audience. So I will not > judge you. I am a simple researcher Sir and I believe that to drag the idea of > MINC together with a bizzare thought experiment was not required at all. > > However please rest assured that no national identity card can help weed out > terrorists. > > and no technology can read the mind of terrorists. > > Any statement which contradict the above is fallacious because it will presume > before hand who the 'terrorist' is. > > And a person can only be called a terrorist after an event has occurred. > Evidence related to a conspiracy to commit an unlawful act is established. > > So any attempt to frame as simple a thing as a news story as ' What after > MNIC? The MIND, the final frontier.' is wrong and uncalled for and does not > fall within the purview of reason. > > With warm regards > > Taha > > > > > > From kshmendra2005 at yahoo.com Sun Apr 12 22:13:59 2009 From: kshmendra2005 at yahoo.com (Kshmendra Kaul) Date: Sun, 12 Apr 2009 09:43:59 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Reader-list] What after MNIC? The MIND, the final frontier. In-Reply-To: <49E217AB.3030602@gmail.com> Message-ID: <431542.83734.qm@web57201.mail.re3.yahoo.com> Dear Taha   I am ignoring the contents of this posting too of yours. But I do take this opportunity to accuse you yet once again that you are a shamelessly filthy liar. I say that on the basis of the following words used by you: """"" Kshmendra Kaul's defense that 'MNIC could be used to weed out terrorists' """""" I still welcome you (or anyone who has read this thread) to confirm this statement of yours with evidence from what I have written.  I have just called you, yet once again, a shameless filthy liar. Can you prove me wrong? You also did not have the courage of your convictions to accept my offer that you name some people who can objectively read the full thread and judge whether 'reason' has been used by you or me.   Kshmendra --- On Sun, 4/12/09, Taha Mehmood <2tahamehmood at googlemail.com> wrote: From: Taha Mehmood <2tahamehmood at googlemail.com> Subject: Re: [Reader-list] What after MNIC? The MIND, the final frontier. To: kshmendra2005 at yahoo.com Cc: "reader-list" Date: Sunday, April 12, 2009, 10:02 PM Dear Kshmendra I refuse to be provoked. You will have to try harder Sir. Could I suggest calling me a 'shameless filthy liar' was a rather poor attempt. You see. I would love if each and every member of the reader list read the whole thread objectively and judge whether your interpretation my 'posts', which was so clearly articulated in the third mail on this thread, as follows -'One of the premises on which the support for MNIC is based is that it will help weed out terrorists.' is -reasonable- or not. I contend that it is not, furthermore I also contend that there seems to be a grave error of judgment on your part. No one can reasonably deduce or adduce from my posts that I have ever implied or suggested or indicated directly or indirectly that a national identity card will help weed out terrorists. Although I have implied or suggested or indicated directly or indirectly that a national identity card will help weed out 'Illegal immigrants' Yes; 'Legitimate Recipients' of State funding; Yes. Gender. Yes; Date of birth. Yes; Marital Status. Yes; Address Proof. Yes; Photographs. Yes; Biometric Identification. Yes; Terrorists. NO SIR. Please go ahead and invite anyone to read and I will be more than happy to respond. With warm regards Taha Kshmendra Kaul wrote: > Dear Taha > I am ignoring the contents of this posting too of yours. > But I do take this opportunity to accuse you for the third time that you are a shamelessly filthy liar. > I say that on the basis of the following words used by you: > """"" Kshmendra Kaul's defense that 'MNIC could be used to weed out terrorists' """""" > I still welcome you (or anyone who has read this thread) to confirm this statement of yours with evidence from what I have written. I have just called you, yet once again, a shameless filthy liar. Can you prove me wrong? > You also did not have the courage of your convictions to accept my offer that you name some people who can objectively read the full thread and judge whether 'reason' has been used by you or me. > Kshmendra > > --- On *Sun, 4/12/09, Taha Mehmood /<2tahamehmood at googlemail.com>/* wrote: > > From: Taha Mehmood <2tahamehmood at googlemail.com> > Subject: Re: [Reader-list] What after MNIC? The MIND, the final > frontier. > To: kshmendra2005 at yahoo.com > Cc: "Taha Mehmood" <2tahamehmood at googlemail.com>, "reader-list" > > Date: Sunday, April 12, 2009, 8:50 PM > > Dear Kshmendra > > By now everyone knows that ad hominem argumentation, spiced with invectives is > your forte. I will allow you to compete alone in this department. I wish you all > the best. As for me, I cannot play all the roles of defendant, prosecutor, > witness, jury, judge, correspondent, reporter and the audience. So I will not > judge you. I am a simple researcher Sir and I believe that to drag the idea of > MINC together with a bizzare thought experiment was not required at all. > > However please rest assured that no national identity card can help weed out > terrorists. > > and no technology can read the mind of terrorists. > > Any statement which contradict the above is fallacious because it will presume > before hand who the 'terrorist' is. > > And a person can only be called a terrorist after an event has occurred. > Evidence related to a conspiracy to commit an unlawful act is established. > > So any attempt to frame as simple a thing as a news story as ' What after > MNIC? The MIND, the final frontier.' is wrong and uncalled for and does not > fall within the purview of reason. > > With warm regards > > Taha > > > > > From shuddha at sarai.net Mon Apr 13 02:08:56 2009 From: shuddha at sarai.net (Shuddhabrata Sengupta) Date: Mon, 13 Apr 2009 02:08:56 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] What after MNIC? The MIND, the final frontier. In-Reply-To: <431542.83734.qm@web57201.mail.re3.yahoo.com> References: <431542.83734.qm@web57201.mail.re3.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <831D1D40-67A9-4B92-AD98-5E45A1EF75DE@sarai.net> Dear All, Dear Taha, Dear Kshmendra, While I have enjoyed reading the thread on identity cards greatly, I find some of the more recent exchanges counter-productive. They have now brought us down to the level of attempts at reading the minds of the leading correspondents of the exchange. I doubt if any technology exists, or can ever exist that can help us read the intention of others with complete lucidity and transparency, let alone the minds of those who read and write on this, list, and were that to happen, I at least would consider it to be a terrible tragedy. The loss of enigma is not something to be celebrated, at least, not in my book. So, please let us refrain from hurling invectives about who has lied and who has been reasonable and unreasonable, and let us get back to discussing the matter at hand. This is a sincere request, coming from one list member to all others. I fail to understand what reason there is to take needlessly antagonistic positions on this matter. A mailing list, because it stands at a remove from a physical, face to face interaction, sometimes becomes a den of suspicion, where we begin reading clues about each others negative responses in the silences and spaces between words, phrases and postings, even when they may not actually exist. As a fellow reader of this list, I would request everyone concerned to please refrain from name calling and letting this important debate degenerate into abuse and counter abuse Now, coming back to the matter at hand. My two penny worth in the debate is as follows. I think that generally, any discourse that comes attired in the costume of expertise needs to be thoroughly examined and questioned before its truth value can be established, The problem with surveillance and identification technologies is that they spring from the recesses of the security-technology induestry, and come attired in a lot of performative self proclaimed expertise. There was a by now famous case of a murder trial in western india, where a judge was so impressed with the buzz of cognitive forensics in the form of neural imagery of a suspects silent responses to a series of leading questions that he awarded a guilty verdict while overruling the normal rules of evidence. This goes to show how willing we are to abdicate the restraints that we normally operate with when it comes to something that comes wearing a lab coat and speaking the jargon of science. Perhaps this is the disturbing consensus that Taha has hinted at. I think that the whole MNIC and surveillance technology issue as it is playing out in India is an instance of the abdication of the normal processes of doubt. I fee that that a dangerous emerging consensus (that cuts across party and ideological lines) demands a bloated infrastructure of suspicion and the performance of a misplaced certainty. This list is perhaps one of the rare platforms where a sustained level of questioning and scepticism about these issues has been maintained by some list members. I would especially point to Taha's posting titled - "Survey of the spectrum of arguments regarding MNIC as they exist in the public domain followed by questions.(1998-2004)" dated January 3, 2009 as a starting point for a detailed discussion on these issues because it summarizes the arguments made in favour of identity cards and then asks a series of pointed questions about each of these questions. I have read the thread carefully and I have not found any place where Taha makes a claim that MNIC cards can weed out terrorism. On the contrary, he reports that such claims have been made, and then goes on to question the basis on which such claims can be made. The questions he has raised, in my opinion, deserve our careful attention. I am curious to know what others think about the questions that have been raised about the issues pertaining to the MNIC and about claims made for pre-cognitive neural imagery. regards Shuddha From kauladityaraj at gmail.com Mon Apr 13 02:26:38 2009 From: kauladityaraj at gmail.com (Aditya Raj Kaul) Date: Mon, 13 Apr 2009 02:26:38 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Azad's brother in BJP justifies Babri Masjid demolition In-Reply-To: <6353c690904121356n44570cb1j447d2dfc5364110a@mail.gmail.com> References: <6353c690904121356n44570cb1j447d2dfc5364110a@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <6353c690904121356q5b3154e7w5edcbae144bf53d2@mail.gmail.com> Azad's brother in BJP justifies Babri Masjid demolition*The Times of India* Link - http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/India/Azads-brother-in-BJP-justifies-Babri-Masjid-demolition/articleshow/4392562.cms JAMMU: Congress leader Ghulam Nabi Azad's younger brother Ghulam Ali Azad, who recently joined the Bharatiya Janata Party (BJP), on Sunday justified the 1992 demolition of the Babri Masjid, saying no mosque ever existed in Ayodhya. Ali Azad lambasted the Congress for accusing BJP senior leader LK Advani of being involved in the demolition of the 16th century mosque. "There never was a mosque, nor it exists today nor it will ever," Ali Azad told reporters. The mosque was constructed by first Mughal emperor Babur in Ayodhya in the 16th century. On Dec 6, 1992, it was destroyed by Hinduextremists who believe that Babur destroyed an existing temple at the site, built to commemorate the birthplace of Rama. The demolition triggered widespread communal unrest in the entire country. Babur, Ali Azad said, was an "invader. We cannot glorify him as a leader of Muslims in any sense of the word." The brother of the former Jammu and Kashmir chief minister said Congress leaders were working against one another. He said he had joined the BJP because it was a party of principles and an ideology rooted in keeping the nation together. Hours after his younger brother's outburst, Ghulam Nabi Azad said that he had nothing to do with what Ali Azad had said. "I disown him (Ali Azad). I have no dealing with him," Azad told a local TV channel. From yasir.media at gmail.com Mon Apr 13 02:28:21 2009 From: yasir.media at gmail.com (=?windows-1256?B?eWFzaXIgfu3HINPR?=) Date: Mon, 13 Apr 2009 01:58:21 +0500 Subject: [Reader-list] TODAY: Press Conference - Vandalism @ ArtsCouncil - Press Club 4:30pm In-Reply-To: <5af37bb0904121355v72bba9d9t6c2c265bb398c0df@mail.gmail.com> References: <5af37bb0904121355v72bba9d9t6c2c265bb398c0df@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <5af37bb0904121358r2604bdfcr4ab9327200d653cc@mail.gmail.com> [image: File:Redflash.gif] [image: File:Redflash.gif] * * *Culture SOS** !* TODAY (Mon 13 April 09): Press Conference - Vandalism @ ArtsCouncil Karachi Press Club, 4:30pm BE THERE ! [image: File:Redflash.gif] [image: File:Redflash.gif] You need to do ALL of the following: 1. Come to the *Press Conference* at Karachi Press Club (KPC) at 4:30 pm, sit in the audience and watch the panel reading out the *Statement*(petition below) and explaining: what is wrong with *attacking a public space*, to journalists and the public. 1. Sign petition, and ask people to sign petition: Inquiry into Vandalism at Arts Council Khi 08Apr'09 http://www.ipetitions.com/petition/Vandalism_at_Arts_Council_Karach/ 2. *Join, and Ask People to Join* the googlegroup CultureSOS at: http://groups.google.com/group/culturesos (if you haven't joined already) Other groups are welcome to take up the petition on their own. To send messages to the whole group write to: culturesos [at] googlegroups [dot] com Please forward to friends. [image: File:Redflash.gif] [image: File:Redflash.gif] * STATEMENT ON BEHALF OF * * THE CONCERNED CITIZENS OF PAKISTAN* http://www.ipetitions.com/petition/Vandalism_at_Arts_Council_Karach/ This great city of Karachi was the venue of the 2nd Shanaakht Festival held at the Arts Council, Karachi. Over 1000 exhibits of Art were received and featured at this Festival and it was open to the general public. On the first day [i.e. 8-4-2009] of the 2nd Shanaakht Festival, a small group of individuals entered the Arts Council, Karachi, disrupted the Festival and vandalized the exhibition at the Festival. The disruption and vandalism of the Exhibition was done on the ground that one of the exhibits was objectionable and disrespectful of Shaheed Benazir Bhutto. It is important to note that these people never approached the organizers to launch a complaint or for the removal of the exhibit that they found objectionable. It is also been reported in the ‘The News’ on 10-4-2009 that a F.I.R. has also been initiated against the organizer of the Festival and artist of the objectionable exhibit. Without defending the said exhibit of art and without deliberating on the issue as to whether the exhibit of art was objectionable and disrespectful or not, we respect the point of view of all persons who found the exhibit objectionable and disrespectable and we sympathize with them for their emotional distress. We also respect the right of all persons to peacefully protest and criticize any exhibit or piece of art which they deem objectionable. What we are concerned and disturbed about are the actions of some people, whatsoever the grounds maybe, who disrupted and vandalized the exhibition and endangered the life and security of the citizens present. What we are further perturbed about is the use of the criminal law against persons who have a different point of view. Shaheed Benazir Bhutto and the Pakistan People’s Party have waged a historic struggle for tolerance and freedom of expression, which includes the freedom of artistic expression, in this country. Shaheed Benazir Bhutto gave her life for these principles. Surely, it is our expectation from a democratic government of the PPP that the freedom of artistic expression will be upheld and protected by this government and any act of vandalism or suppression of this freedom will not be condoned by this government. We, as concerned citizens, will resist any attempt to suppress our freedom of expression by acts of vandalism and violence and by malafide initiation of criminal cases to suppress the voices of dissent. * We demand that the government should hold an inquiry into the acts of vandalism and violence on April 8th, 2009, at the arts council, Karachi, and we urge the government to protect the life and liberty of the persons against whom a malafide criminal case has been initiated. * + + + + From pawan.durani at gmail.com Mon Apr 13 10:24:07 2009 From: pawan.durani at gmail.com (Pawan Durani) Date: Mon, 13 Apr 2009 10:24:07 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] 'BJP will support Homeland for Kashmiri Pandits Message-ID: <6b79f1a70904122154x79eeba50y6faf2db4e6cd18b@mail.gmail.com> "Perhaps the most important development which has happened towards the struggle for Homeland. This is probably the first time any national party has expressed its support towards creation of Homeland for Kashmiri Pandits. I must remind readers that till date no political party had endrosed this demand. Even RSS had been opposed to Homeland demand" http://www.hindu.com/thehindu/holnus/002200904130943.htm *'BJP will support Kashmiri pandits' demand'* Jammu (PTI): BJP on Sunday extended its full support to demand by some Kashmiri pandit organisations of a separate homeland in the Kashmir valley. "BJP at the state and national levels will stand behind the resolution of Kashmiri pandits in achieving their goal of return and rehabilitation and also creation of homeland in the valley," State BJP President Ashok Khajuria said at the third world conference of Kashmiri pandits organised by Panun Kashmir here. Panun Kashmir has been demanding a homeland with Union Territory status in Kashmir valley for 4 lakh pandits. Mr. Khajuria said inimical forces, who are responsible for the exodus of pandits from Kashmir, should realise that the pandits have a long history of civilization in valley and they are the real masters. The exodus is temporary and they will return and live in their homeland in the same way they lived their through centuries, he said. Not only the people of Jammu stand behind them, but the entire nation also support their cause, he said. Pledging his party's support to pandits in their fight to seek their goals, the BJP leader, however, advised them to create an umbrella of all Kashmiri pandit organisations for united fight. From mardemujahid46 at yahoo.com Mon Apr 13 10:25:50 2009 From: mardemujahid46 at yahoo.com (Mujahid Haq) Date: Sun, 12 Apr 2009 21:55:50 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Reader-list] The True Face of Ulemas and Maolvis Message-ID: <829052.5747.qm@web46214.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> The True Face of Ulemas and Maolvis:             Today, i am writing on very sensitive topic based on practical experience. i don't know from where to start this topics & whether it is safe to discuss here about a topic which may prove to be a very contraversing topic for readers, especially for my Muslim brothers who are reluctant to any reality which is in opposite direction to their belief. First of all i would like to say i'm a punjabi/urdu speaking person and English is not my mother tongue so kindly ignore my spelling or grammar or idiomatic mistakes. Now let me come to the topic.           We people follow our religious leaders blindly without exploring their characters and morals. [by religious leaders i didn't mean the pious saints and prophets]. I have a relative who is much older than me but we are like friends because of similarity in our thinking. He was a very pious person and was a fan of Sadat Hasan Manto, a bold and dauntless writer of India-Pakistan. He read Manto critically and what he wrote in his works he decided to judge it's reality in his present situation. He was infect doing research on prostitutes and what force them to do such a vulgar job. Once he told me that once upon a time he went with his friend (I) to Qari Sakhi Muhammad Sealwi, a famous religious scholar of Punjab, Pakistan. [Literary, 'Qari' means one who recites Quran]   Their 'I' introduced him with Qari. After a brief introduction from both sides their 'ceremony' started and a 'twayef' (prostitute dancer) entered in the room and Qari stand up from the sofa and hug the lady and they both start dancing.[don't think they already know each other both were strangers for each other; infect she was booked for few hours for Qari and his guests]. He was shocked to see a molvi dancing and kissing and hugging a lady. Qari invited his quests to accompany him on which 'I' joined him but he remained seated but keep laughing since it was his first experience to see a molvi dancing……. This is incident of 1990's. One more thing which I would like to say that Qari was a property dealer in religion's cloak. He formed several madrasas (schools) in different locations of Punjab and especially in Lahore. Most of his madrasas are for female students and were upto 10th grade. Where only girls from poor families study. All beautifully girls of his schools were 'enjoyed' by him and his ally. He also used to supply girls to local bodies/ badmaash and political people.  that Qari died in 2008 and is now revered here as a 'holy man'.            I have my several cousins in European countires. One of my cousins is in Germany. On his arrival to lahore he told me that while he was in a bar dancing with his girl friend he saw Maulana Fazul-al- Rehman, a religious and political leader of Paksitan, dancing in the club in full 'masti'. He was very surprised to see him but I was much surprised when I heared that.            I know a trust worthy person 'X' who went to Saudia Arab with his colony-fellows for earning in 1985's. Their they were employed in an a construction firm located in Mecca. The 2 men from them were 'pakay zaani' (playboys). After spending few days in Mecca they started searching for a brothel. One day, they reached a brothel, located in a VIP's colony in a palace-like double story house, with a third person (which was older-settled in Saudia than the two). When they reached their, they saw a palace in the neighbor of that brothel. Out side the palace policemen and guards were on duty and to see them those 'two' start trembling while the third remained cool. They were further shocked when they read on the name plate of palace that it belong to Imam-e-Kaaba, the most respected and 'pious' personality of Muslim world. They decided to return since they thought the third person is fooling with them. The third one compel them to enter the brothel and say don't afraid go inside their every thing will be ok etc etc. but they didn't agree. Then the third one called (awaz lagana) in the brothel and a lady (nayeka, manager of that brothel) appeared in the teris/ balcony. The third one said to him your guest are afraid of your neighbour and have give-up the idea to stay here…. Then they both start laughing while that two remain still like idols. Then that lady welcomed her guests warmly and succeeded in overcoming their fear. At last they entered. On reaching inside the lady and third person start laughing to their will. The lady told them, don't afraid of that police since it was for your protection (then she laugh) and neither afraid of Imam(-e-Kaba) since he is over foremost 'gahak' (one who went to shop). When ever I had 'naya maal' (i.e., new girls) he is first to enjoy them……." The 'two' were so shocked that they can't utter a single world. Then they were provided by the lady a little refreshment and then their 'work' start……. Here I remember poet Iqbal's verse: Dayhati ho k shehri ho Musalman hai saada Manind-e-butaan pujtay hain Kabay k Brehman   [whether a Muslim is of city or village he is simple(i.e., Easy to be deceived). They worship the "Brahmins of Kaba" like idols (without looking at their characters etc)]                The same 'X' went to Pakistan after ending his job in Saudia started investing his money in various works. At one time he bought few rickshaws (3 wheel vehicle used as taxi) and appointed drivers. The drivers took up his rickshaws in early morning and roam in the city in search for passengers and return the home in night where they give their  earning to the owner 'X' from which he gave them their payment. This was their daily routine. One of these (let 'R') drivers' earning was always greater than the others and he was always last one to come; sometime he came in midnight. The 'X' keeps an eye on his rickshaws, as other owners do, that whether his drivers are doing the job honestly or not. Once he was sitting at a chok (round about) with other owners counting the 'phairas' (routes) of his rickshaws.. He saw his rickshaw ( 'R') stopped  near a big black luxury car/cruiser. From the rickshaw a well-dressed girl appears and entered in the car. When the car passed near the chok he looked inside; it was being drived by Allama Sajid Nakwi, a religious scholar of Shia'muslims and a leader of a religious party. He was little bit confused and think it might happen that he couldn't see the person rightly and that person resembles with Sajid but not the Sajid himself. In evening, when all rickshaws came he enquired 'R' about that incident. He said if he is not wrong than that person in car was Sajid Nakwi? Driver was surprised and replied 'yes'. He admitted that without any hesitation and reluctance because 'X'  has very brotherly attitude with drivers. Then he opened the whole story. He told he is supplying 'butterflies' (i.e., girls) to Ulemas and local bodies which include Sajid Nakwi, Tahir-ul-Qadri, Qari Sakhi Mohammad, Al-Haaj Sheikh Rohil Asghar etc. for which he got very sufficient earning. He said he earn much large money than he provide to him in the end of day. Then he offered him to be a part of his net work which he refused. The story has a disastrous effect on 'X'. He asked 'R' "tu kisi din mujay phanswaye ga"(you will create a problem for me in future). On which 'R' replied, "aap to pehlay hi phansay huay hain..kabhi thanay main ja kar is rikshay ki report to daikhain, isay darjanoon dafa police nay pakrra hai magar isko churranay walay be 'wohi' hain" (you are already in problem. Your this rickshaw is caught several time by police of different stations but always 'they' themselves saved it etc). Next day he went to local police station and show his rickshaw's number their and inquire about it. The police man revealed that we several time caught this rikshaw of this number for illegal works but whenever we took it to our station the very movement we are rang up by 'respected personalities''s calls so we had to leave it without further investigation etc. This confirmed 'R''s story. Latter, 'X' sold his all rickshaws and free all drivers and start investing in properties. Few days latter while he was in his home some one knocked at his door. He opened the door and was surprised to see Sajid Nakwi standing their. This shocked him very much. They shake hands and Sajid took him to his car. In his car he saw  Tahir-ul-Qadri, the religious scholar of Sunni'muslims and now know as Sheikh-ul-Islam[the greatest leader of muslims]. Sajid was informed by 'R' that 'X' is well known of their 'work'. So he came to pressurize him that if he disclosed anything he will create 'problem' for himself and his family. Sajid start discussion in friendly environment and ended in harsh words. When he ended, Tahir said, "Sahih tarhaan samja dea hai na?"(did you convince him rightly) and he replied "bilkul"(surley).and then they depart. Here I'll quote a verse of Bulleh Shah "Bahroon saaf hoyoon ke hunda jay diloon na gaye palitee”  (physically you appear clean and from inside you are dirty) I have these stories in my hearts from several years. One day I've to die and I don't want to take these 'heavy stones' with me so I decided to disclose it to you so that you could see we can't judge a personality from his physical look or worldly reputation since those who look physically pious are much vulgar than a prostitute!   Anonymous   From bawazainab79 at gmail.com Mon Apr 13 10:27:50 2009 From: bawazainab79 at gmail.com (Zainab Bawa) Date: Mon, 13 Apr 2009 10:27:50 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Invitation to the launch of www.EmpoweringIndia.org Message-ID: *EMPOWERING INDIA* *Making Democracy Meaningful* *Press Institute of India* *and* Liberty Institute *in partnership with the* Friedrich Naumann – Stiftung für die Freiheit cordially invite you for the launch of a new initiative *www.empoweringindia.org* a unique website on candidates and constituencies By *Mr SUDHAKAR RAO * *Chief Secretary, Government of Karnataka * *Guest of Honour* *Justice SANTOSH HEGDE (Retd.)* *Supreme Court of India & Head, Lokayukta, Karnataka* *DATE*: April 16, 2009 *TIME*: 10 am to 2 pm *VENUE*: The Crystal Hall The Capitol Hotel No 3, Raj Bhavan Road, Bangalore – 560 001 RSVP: *Sangeetha Rajeesh*, Editor – Press Institute of India (098410 51489) ....................................................................................................................................................................................... *PROGRAMME*: 10.00 am - Registration (tea/coffee + biscuits) 10.30 am - Introduction to the programme- *Mr V Murali,* Director – Press Institute of India, Chennai 10.35 am - Welcome remarks – *Mr Subodh Kumar, *Executive – Programmes, FNF, New Delhi 10.40 am - Launch of Empowering India and inaugural address –*Mr Sudhakar Rao, *Chief Secretary - Karnataka 10.55 am – Special Address by *Justice* *Santosh Hegde, *Supreme Court India (retd.) & Head of Lokayukta Karnataka 11.10 am - Introduction to *www.EmpoweringIndia.org * , *Mr Barun Mitra*, Director - Liberty Institute, New Delhi 11.45 am - *PANEL DISCUSSION* – *‘Making Democracy Meaningful’* Chairperson – *Mr L C Jain, *Former Member – Planning Commission Panellists – *Mr R Srikumar, (*retd) DG, IGP, Karnataka - *Mr V N Subba Rao, *Former Chairman, Karnataka Academy - *Mr* *Sharat Pottaraju, *Head of Communications , Janaagraha, Karnataka 12.55pm – Vote of thanks – *Mr Barun Mitra * 1 pm – Lunch Liberty Institute, C-4/8 Sahyadri, Plot 5, Sector 12, Dwarka, New Delhi 110078. Tel: 011-28031309. Email: *EmpoweringIndiaMail at gmail.com*, Web site: *www.InDefenceofLiberty.org * Press Institute of India, (address and contact details) -- Zainab Bawa Ph.D. Student and Independent Researcher Between Places ... http://wbfs.wordpress.com From pawan.durani at gmail.com Mon Apr 13 10:28:10 2009 From: pawan.durani at gmail.com (Pawan Durani) Date: Mon, 13 Apr 2009 10:28:10 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Will our PM cast his vote ? Message-ID: <6b79f1a70904122158x434a9981ref88de6276c9453b@mail.gmail.com> Sh Manmohan Singh is a registered voter from Assam . In 2006, Singh and his wife had left Assam just a day before Assembly polls !!! . As per election rules, the Prime Minister is not eligible for postal ballot, since the facility is only for officials on poll duty and men from the services. Would he cast his vote ? From rajeshr at csds.in Mon Apr 13 10:38:53 2009 From: rajeshr at csds.in (Rajesh Ramakrishnan) Date: Mon, 13 Apr 2009 10:38:53 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] `Secularism and the Hardening of Religious Identity'; Sonia Sikka, CSDS, April 21, 3 PM Message-ID: Tuesday, 21st April, 2009 Sonia Sikka will speak on Secularism and the Hardening of Religious Identity at 3:00 PM in the Seminar Room, CSDS, 29 Rajpur Road, Delhi – 110 054 The broad thesis of this paper is that practical operation of certain secular paradigms has an undesirable effect on the construction and negotiation of religious identities. This thesis is oriented towards political models that seek to exclude deliberation involving appeals to religion from the public sphere, whether these prescribe the wholesale privatisation of religion as a matter of individual conscience, or offer state recognition to multiple religious communities. While these two procedures are in many respects very different, they both encourage members of religious communities to cordon off a critically important subset of their beliefs and values, and to treat this subset as if it were fixed and unrevisable, intrinsically unsuited to substantive discussion and debate. Such a process contributes to a reification and hardening of religious identities; it contributes, in fact, to the positioning of religious viewpoints as a matter of “identity.” At the same time, the exclusion of religion from educational institutions, and from the public sphere in general, gives rise to a situation in which non-religious citizens are largely ignorant about religion, and unable to see in it anything but foolish superstition and a source of hatred and violence. This view of religion, it is suggested, is both false and unhelpful, serving to reinforce rather than to mitigate the dogmatism of the forms of belief it opposes. Sonia Sikka is Associate Professor of Philosophy at the University of Ottawa, Canada. Her primary research interests are in modern European philosophy, philosophy of religion and philosophy of culture. She has written extensively on Heidegger, Nietzsche, Levinas and other authors in the continental tradition of philosophy. Over the past several years, she has also published a series of articles on issues related to cultural identity and pluralism within the thought of J.G. Herder. At present, Dr. Sikka is working on the topic of identity construction, with a particular focus on religious identities. From phadkeshilpa at gmail.com Mon Apr 13 10:56:55 2009 From: phadkeshilpa at gmail.com (Shilpa Phadke) Date: Mon, 13 Apr 2009 10:56:55 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Fwd: 'Pink Chaddi' Facebook group vandalised and taken over In-Reply-To: References: <723107.94974.qm@web95215.mail.in2.yahoo.com> <9e2acadd0904121030xf2b697cw45b1df14cbbef78b@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: ---------- Forwarded message ---------- From: Kamayani Date: 2009/4/13 Subject: [mumbaivaw2004] 'Pink Chaddi' Facebook group vandalised and taken over To: From: Nisha Susan Date: Sat, Apr 11, 2009 Subject: Pink Chaddi vandalised and taken over Dear All, Some of you know that the Pink Chaddi facebook group has been hacked over and over again over the last month. We have written to FB about the violent messages, the defacing and the threats. Despite all over security measures the hacks have continued. Facebook has essentially fobbed us off with some form mail. As of this evening my account has been disabled. The trolls have taken over. Rather specific *grin* and anatomically correct messages have been left for me on the group. I can't get in to see what is happening but friends report that members are being deleted off the group. FB continues to stay silent. As my friend says, the first rule of Facebook activism seems to be dont use Facebook. Oh by the way the trolls have renamed the group 'A good bong is a dead bong'. Over the month there choices have been Nathuram Godse Appreciation Society, Dara Singh Appreciation group and other as I said, anatomically specific ones. Just wanted to let you know that this is what is happening. I am lobbying online and would appreciate it if you spread the word. Thanks, Nisha ------------------------------ From c.anupam at gmail.com Mon Apr 13 11:17:13 2009 From: c.anupam at gmail.com (anupam chakravartty) Date: Mon, 13 Apr 2009 11:17:13 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Will our PM cast his vote ? In-Reply-To: <6b79f1a70904122158x434a9981ref88de6276c9453b@mail.gmail.com> References: <6b79f1a70904122158x434a9981ref88de6276c9453b@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <341380d00904122247q66ac157cwcc8ab2d6505becb2@mail.gmail.com> Dear Pawan, I feeel like saying oooof...how many times mr advani was in gujarat to cast his vote during assembly elections. grow up...dont be so petty. it is simply kiddish to cite these things and then be quiet on the larger issues. moreover, how does it make a difference if singh or advani or for that matter anyone stays off the assembly elections. as per law, there is no such rule that one must vote. DO U UNDERSTAND? regards anupam On 4/13/09, Pawan Durani wrote: > > Sh Manmohan Singh is a registered voter from Assam . In 2006, Singh and his > wife had left Assam just a day before Assembly polls !!! . > > As per election rules, the Prime Minister is not eligible for postal > ballot, > since the facility is only for officials on poll duty and men from the > services. > > Would he cast his vote ? > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > subscribe in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> From pawan.durani at gmail.com Mon Apr 13 11:22:55 2009 From: pawan.durani at gmail.com (Pawan Durani) Date: Mon, 13 Apr 2009 11:22:55 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Will our PM cast his vote ? In-Reply-To: <341380d00904122247q66ac157cwcc8ab2d6505becb2@mail.gmail.com> References: <6b79f1a70904122158x434a9981ref88de6276c9453b@mail.gmail.com> <341380d00904122247q66ac157cwcc8ab2d6505becb2@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <6b79f1a70904122252k12dbd12dn8d6d772e4a12bc1f@mail.gmail.com> Dear Mr Anupam , I believe the leaders who represent us , whether from BJP or Congress or Jamaat or Shiv Sena or even non democratic Communists......All should be voting . If they dont vote , that goes against the essence of creating a benchmark for a good democratic society as our leaders should be our role model. I have understood it from the begining now DO YOU UNDERSTAND ? Regards Pawan On Mon, Apr 13, 2009 at 11:17 AM, anupam chakravartty wrote: > Dear Pawan, > > I feeel like saying oooof...how many times mr advani was in gujarat to cast > his vote during assembly elections. grow up...dont be so petty. it is > simply > kiddish to cite these things and then be quiet on the larger issues. > > moreover, how does it make a difference if singh or advani or for that > matter anyone stays off the assembly elections. as per law, there is no > such > rule that one must vote. DO U UNDERSTAND? > > regards anupam > > > On 4/13/09, Pawan Durani wrote: > > > > Sh Manmohan Singh is a registered voter from Assam . In 2006, Singh and > his > > wife had left Assam just a day before Assembly polls !!! . > > > > As per election rules, the Prime Minister is not eligible for postal > > ballot, > > since the facility is only for officials on poll duty and men from the > > services. > > > > Would he cast his vote ? > > _________________________________________ > > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > > Critiques & Collaborations > > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > > subscribe in the subject header. > > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > subscribe in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> From c.anupam at gmail.com Mon Apr 13 12:16:53 2009 From: c.anupam at gmail.com (anupam chakravartty) Date: Mon, 13 Apr 2009 12:16:53 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Will our PM cast his vote ? In-Reply-To: <6b79f1a70904122252k12dbd12dn8d6d772e4a12bc1f@mail.gmail.com> References: <6b79f1a70904122158x434a9981ref88de6276c9453b@mail.gmail.com> <341380d00904122247q66ac157cwcc8ab2d6505becb2@mail.gmail.com> <6b79f1a70904122252k12dbd12dn8d6d772e4a12bc1f@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <341380d00904122346y22768172k92e78e26d269ba00@mail.gmail.com> Dear Mr Pawan (and all), But you also believe in citing just one case of Manmohan Singh not voting from assam. i can very well furnish the proof that advani hasnt voted for gujarat assembly elections since the time he has been contesting from gandhinagar. I do agree that for a just democracy it is a good thing to use your franchise. But i am trying to point out is that there is no such rule of law that one must vote. i dont think you specially have any background in law or understanding the political climate. you all are here to promote the Panun Kashmir ( though i agree with the injustices done to kashmiri pandits). But on many occasions, reading your mails (for example: saying that there were pakistani flags hoisted in assam), you and your cause have sort of become a poster boy for BJP and for other saffron forces. if you say Congress is a pseudo-secular part, then BJP is the most divisive force in India. If in Karbi Anglong in Assam, Advani is joining hands with the rebels such AGP and former KNLF (mostly goons who have looted the innocent people by extorting money in the name of liberation), in Gujarat they are 'investing' lakhs and crores of money in tribal districts of Panchmahals and Dahod but at the same time refusing to give them a mere tribal certificate saying that since they do not use the tribal surname they are not eligible. Even Bainsla's induction to the BJP in Rajasthan is a blow to the cause of the Gujjars because Raje refused to give them an ST status long time back. In this way, BJP by lapping up the poster boys/girls of the revolution who incorrectly represent their people, not caring about the aspirations of the people -- but only listening to those who are extorting money in the name of the cause -- is screwing up the underlying unity of the country. Eventually BJP has the same fate as that of the Congress. Operating in the same nehruvian-indira gandhian way, it would only accomodate conflicts without addressing the root cause. i am afraid that one day the Panun Kashmir cause would be diluted when they (for the territorial ambitions) join hands with your adversaries ( to start with Ghulam Nabi azad's brother). I have suggestion for you Mr Pawan and to all, since you are so much interested in putting the Panun Kashmir cause in the forefront of this mailing list. Why can't we have more thoughts on what Kashmiri Pandits are doing now? What are new businesses, what newer avenues are they exploring? How were Kashmiri Pandits treated by the NDA government when it came to power? I am also a victim of state-sponsored, revolutionary unrest and street terrorism. I spent a good long time in Assam and Arunachal Pradesh. I saw how temples were built overnight to assert the "Indianess" in Arunachal killing the tribal gods of Doni and Polo. n i saw my own friends being picked up by police beaten up, then these so called revolutionaries coming over torturing them. why? because they questioned the authencity of such causes. they questioned who decides peoples' fate...who represents them? I hope you do not mind these words. I know how it feels to be cheated by a state which has failed to address the most important issues. But that doesnt mean one sides with a divisive force -- a monster that feeds on personal issues -- our identity. if you do not support congress for its pseudo-secular ideas then this support for a party which feeds on the aspirations of just one set of people -- the hindu majority proves that your idea of a secular, just, good democracy is false. that's all i have to say Pawan. dont you feel lucky to have choices? regards anupam On 4/13/09, Pawan Durani wrote: > > Dear Mr Anupam , > > I believe the leaders who represent us , whether from BJP or Congress or > Jamaat or Shiv Sena or even non democratic Communists......All should be > voting . > > If they dont vote , that goes against the essence of creating a benchmark > for a good democratic society as our leaders should be our role model. > > I have understood it from the begining now DO YOU UNDERSTAND ? > > Regards > > Pawan > > > > On Mon, Apr 13, 2009 at 11:17 AM, anupam chakravartty wrote: > >> Dear Pawan, >> >> I feeel like saying oooof...how many times mr advani was in gujarat to >> cast >> his vote during assembly elections. grow up...dont be so petty. it is >> simply >> kiddish to cite these things and then be quiet on the larger issues. >> >> moreover, how does it make a difference if singh or advani or for that >> matter anyone stays off the assembly elections. as per law, there is no >> such >> rule that one must vote. DO U UNDERSTAND? >> >> regards anupam >> >> >> On 4/13/09, Pawan Durani wrote: >> > >> > Sh Manmohan Singh is a registered voter from Assam . In 2006, Singh and >> his >> > wife had left Assam just a day before Assembly polls !!! . >> > >> > As per election rules, the Prime Minister is not eligible for postal >> > ballot, >> > since the facility is only for officials on poll duty and men from the >> > services. >> > >> > Would he cast his vote ? >> >> > _________________________________________ >> > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. >> > Critiques & Collaborations >> > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with >> > subscribe in the subject header. >> > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list >> > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> >> _________________________________________ >> reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. >> Critiques & Collaborations >> To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with >> subscribe in the subject header. >> To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list >> List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> > > > From d.anirudha82 at googlemail.com Sun Apr 12 20:14:00 2009 From: d.anirudha82 at googlemail.com (Anirudha Deshpande) Date: Sun, 12 Apr 2009 15:44:00 +0100 Subject: [Reader-list] What after MNIC? The MIND, the final frontier. In-Reply-To: <341380d00904120717t3fd4305tc3a576ff1b02a677@mail.gmail.com> References: <969280.64103.qm@web57208.mail.re3.yahoo.com> <49E1ED91.1090802@gmail.com> <341380d00904120717t3fd4305tc3a576ff1b02a677@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: YES,it was STUPID a thing. Regards, Anirudha On Sun, Apr 12, 2009 at 3:17 PM, anupam chakravartty wrote: > MNIC is a hogwash...a new money making venture of the bureaucracy...it will > bring new terrorists around...who would roam around with guns and ask > peaceloving citizens from time to time, show the CARd.. it is a scary > thought. > On 4/12/09, Taha Mehmood <2tahamehmood at googlemail.com> wrote: > > > > Dear Kshmedra (Dear ALL) > > > > Your response is nothing but a red-herring argument therefore I do find > > my self compelled to reply. > > > > I would rather bring back the discussion back to, from where it started, > > in this regard please allow me to invite all those who are reading this > > post right now :-) > > > > Resolved O:-) > > > > Kshmendra Kaul's defense that 'MNIC could be used to weed out > > terrorists' was a STUPID thing. > > > > I would urge everyone to please respond to this mail with a simple yes > > or no. > > > > With warm regards > > > > Taha > > _________________________________________ > > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > > Critiques & Collaborations > > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > > subscribe in the subject header. > > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > subscribe in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> > From d.anirudha82 at googlemail.com Sun Apr 12 20:14:56 2009 From: d.anirudha82 at googlemail.com (Anirudha Deshpande) Date: Sun, 12 Apr 2009 15:44:56 +0100 Subject: [Reader-list] What after MNIC? The MIND, the final frontier. In-Reply-To: References: <969280.64103.qm@web57208.mail.re3.yahoo.com> <49E1ED91.1090802@gmail.com> <341380d00904120717t3fd4305tc3a576ff1b02a677@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: YES,it was a STUPID thing. Regards, Anirudha On Sun, Apr 12, 2009 at 3:44 PM, Anirudha Deshpande < d.anirudha82 at googlemail.com> wrote: > YES,it was STUPID a thing. > Regards, > Anirudha > > On Sun, Apr 12, 2009 at 3:17 PM, anupam chakravartty wrote: > >> MNIC is a hogwash...a new money making venture of the bureaucracy...it >> will >> bring new terrorists around...who would roam around with guns and ask >> peaceloving citizens from time to time, show the CARd.. it is a scary >> thought. >> On 4/12/09, Taha Mehmood <2tahamehmood at googlemail.com> wrote: >> > >> > Dear Kshmedra (Dear ALL) >> > >> > Your response is nothing but a red-herring argument therefore I do find >> > my self compelled to reply. >> > >> > I would rather bring back the discussion back to, from where it started, >> > in this regard please allow me to invite all those who are reading this >> > post right now :-) >> > >> > Resolved O:-) >> > >> > Kshmendra Kaul's defense that 'MNIC could be used to weed out >> > terrorists' was a STUPID thing. >> > >> > I would urge everyone to please respond to this mail with a simple yes >> > or no. >> > >> > With warm regards >> > >> > Taha >> > _________________________________________ >> > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. >> > Critiques & Collaborations >> > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with >> > subscribe in the subject header. >> > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list >> > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> >> _________________________________________ >> reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. >> Critiques & Collaborations >> To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with >> subscribe in the subject header. >> To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list >> List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> >> > > From pawan.durani at gmail.com Mon Apr 13 13:06:09 2009 From: pawan.durani at gmail.com (Pawan Durani) Date: Mon, 13 Apr 2009 13:06:09 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Will our PM cast his vote ? In-Reply-To: <341380d00904122346y22768172k92e78e26d269ba00@mail.gmail.com> References: <6b79f1a70904122158x434a9981ref88de6276c9453b@mail.gmail.com> <341380d00904122247q66ac157cwcc8ab2d6505becb2@mail.gmail.com> <6b79f1a70904122252k12dbd12dn8d6d772e4a12bc1f@mail.gmail.com> <341380d00904122346y22768172k92e78e26d269ba00@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <6b79f1a70904130036q4f7079bcsaae941d70ad67bbb@mail.gmail.com> Dear Anupam , Thank you for support to Panun Kashmir cause. I cited example of Sh Mamohan Singh because he happens to be the current Prime Minister of Indian and is from the ruling coalition. I would like all leaders to cast their votes as well. Personally I am not going to vote and would be boycotting this election . This is purely a personal reason , as no political party has to deemed it fit to give any representation to the displaced Kashmiris who are living as refugees in their own country. I take your suggestion and hope that i would put more meaningful points about Panun Kashmir in future. As you may have heard the world convention of Kashmiri Pandits got over yesterday and a resolution passed in favor of separate Homeland . To start with Panun Kashmir would set up constituencies in exile. Regards Pawan Durani On Mon, Apr 13, 2009 at 12:16 PM, anupam chakravartty wrote: > Dear Mr Pawan (and all), > > But you also believe in citing just one case of Manmohan Singh not voting > from assam. i can very well furnish the proof that advani hasnt voted for > gujarat assembly elections since the time he has been contesting from > gandhinagar. > > I do agree that for a just democracy it is a good thing to use your > franchise. But i am trying to point out is that there is no such rule of > law > that one must vote. i dont think you specially have any background in law > or > understanding the political climate. you all are here to promote the Panun > Kashmir ( though i agree with the injustices done to kashmiri pandits). But > on many occasions, reading your mails (for example: saying that there were > pakistani flags hoisted in assam), you and your cause have sort of become a > poster boy for BJP and for other saffron forces. if you say Congress is a > pseudo-secular part, then BJP is the most divisive force in India. If in > Karbi Anglong in Assam, Advani is joining hands with the rebels such AGP > and > former KNLF (mostly goons who have looted the innocent people by extorting > money in the name of liberation), in Gujarat they are 'investing' lakhs and > crores of money in tribal districts of Panchmahals and Dahod but at the > same > time refusing to give them a mere tribal certificate saying that since they > do not use the tribal surname they are not eligible. Even Bainsla's > induction to the BJP in Rajasthan is a blow to the cause of the Gujjars > because Raje refused to give them an ST status long time back. In this way, > BJP by lapping up the poster boys/girls of the revolution who incorrectly > represent their people, not caring about the aspirations of the people > -- but only listening to those who are extorting money in the name of the > cause -- is screwing up the underlying unity of the country. > > Eventually BJP has the same fate as that of the Congress. Operating in the > same nehruvian-indira gandhian way, it would only accomodate conflicts > without addressing the root cause. i am afraid that one day the Panun > Kashmir cause would be diluted when they (for the territorial ambitions) > join hands with your adversaries ( to start with Ghulam Nabi azad's > brother). > > I have suggestion for you Mr Pawan and to all, since you are so much > interested in putting the Panun Kashmir cause in the forefront of this > mailing list. Why can't we have more thoughts on what Kashmiri Pandits are > doing now? What are new businesses, what newer avenues are they > exploring? How were Kashmiri Pandits treated by the NDA government when it > came to power? > > I am also a victim of state-sponsored, revolutionary unrest and street > terrorism. I spent a good long time in Assam and Arunachal Pradesh. I saw > how temples were built overnight to assert the "Indianess" in Arunachal > killing the tribal gods of Doni and Polo. n i saw my own friends being > picked up by police beaten up, then these so called revolutionaries coming > over torturing them. why? because they questioned the authencity of such > causes. they questioned who decides peoples' fate...who represents them? > > I hope you do not mind these words. I know how it feels to be cheated by a > state which has failed to address the most important issues. But that > doesnt > mean one sides with a divisive force -- a monster that feeds on > personal issues -- our identity. if you do not support congress for its > pseudo-secular ideas then this support for a party which feeds on the > aspirations of just one set of people -- the hindu majority proves that > your > idea of a secular, just, good democracy is false. that's all i have to > say Pawan. dont you feel lucky to have choices? > > regards > anupam > > > > > On 4/13/09, Pawan Durani wrote: > > > > Dear Mr Anupam , > > > > I believe the leaders who represent us , whether from BJP or Congress or > > Jamaat or Shiv Sena or even non democratic Communists......All should be > > voting . > > > > If they dont vote , that goes against the essence of creating a benchmark > > for a good democratic society as our leaders should be our role model. > > > > I have understood it from the begining now DO YOU UNDERSTAND ? > > > > Regards > > > > Pawan > > > > > > > > On Mon, Apr 13, 2009 at 11:17 AM, anupam chakravartty < > c.anupam at gmail.com>wrote: > > > >> Dear Pawan, > >> > >> I feeel like saying oooof...how many times mr advani was in gujarat to > >> cast > >> his vote during assembly elections. grow up...dont be so petty. it is > >> simply > >> kiddish to cite these things and then be quiet on the larger issues. > >> > >> moreover, how does it make a difference if singh or advani or for that > >> matter anyone stays off the assembly elections. as per law, there is no > >> such > >> rule that one must vote. DO U UNDERSTAND? > >> > >> regards anupam > >> > >> > >> On 4/13/09, Pawan Durani wrote: > >> > > >> > Sh Manmohan Singh is a registered voter from Assam . In 2006, Singh > and > >> his > >> > wife had left Assam just a day before Assembly polls !!! . > >> > > >> > As per election rules, the Prime Minister is not eligible for postal > >> > ballot, > >> > since the facility is only for officials on poll duty and men from the > >> > services. > >> > > >> > Would he cast his vote ? > >> > >> > _________________________________________ > >> > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > >> > Critiques & Collaborations > >> > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > >> > subscribe in the subject header. > >> > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > >> > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> > >> _________________________________________ > >> reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > >> Critiques & Collaborations > >> To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > >> subscribe in the subject header. > >> To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > >> List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> > > > > > > > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > subscribe in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> > From rajen882uppinangadi at gmail.com Mon Apr 13 16:02:34 2009 From: rajen882uppinangadi at gmail.com (Rajen Uppinangadi) Date: Mon, 13 Apr 2009 16:02:34 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Manmohan singh and elections.? Message-ID: <61164a90904130332k579c6ddbt303923f144f31a1c@mail.gmail.com> PM candidate manmohan singh need not vote, he is after all the mohra of Sonia, as otherwise how can the bomb blasts can take place in Assam as frequently as is happening now, Tarun Gogoi when found short of MLAs he had his communal agenda of having support from communal MLAs and the votes were made easy for refugees by fake voters with ration cards and ids.? From rajen882uppinangadi at gmail.com Mon Apr 13 16:04:39 2009 From: rajen882uppinangadi at gmail.com (Rajen Uppinangadi) Date: Mon, 13 Apr 2009 16:04:39 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] vote and belonging to the nation. Message-ID: <61164a90904130334q3bd981a9y5bf3d6ebbcf1b233@mail.gmail.com> Both Manmohan Singh and Advani do not belong to the state they represent and both are liabilities to the nation, dost. From rajen882uppinangadi at gmail.com Mon Apr 13 16:13:44 2009 From: rajen882uppinangadi at gmail.com (Rajen Uppinangadi) Date: Mon, 13 Apr 2009 16:13:44 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] What after MNIC,? Message-ID: <61164a90904130343v768bbef0r6326e8a98afa76b9@mail.gmail.com> Hi, Taha, and all , it was interesting topic and issues raised were good and suddenly it went very personal, as if you two had nothing else to talk about.? Worst, Kshemendra with his keen objective set of posts made us think on the issues raised by taha in his posts were he extensively gave the media posts and his own comments about the issue, of MNIC. As to the gadget to read the mind and profile the minds of individuals, it is not impossible but needs much pure mind at work, without prejudices, without any attachments like that of an ascetic, whose mind can read the others mind, but individuals do read the minds of others to some extent, fake godmen are good at it, politicians do try and miss many a times, isnt it.? As to our free India, even after 62 years of democratic governance, rule of laws is having enough discrepencies, laws and judiciary is not upto expectations, laws are practised more in breach than in adherence, that does not mean laws are not necessary. Similarly, MNIC is a necessity, it can be used or misused as any of the facilities in our free India.? Rajen. From rajen882uppinangadi at gmail.com Mon Apr 13 16:20:34 2009 From: rajen882uppinangadi at gmail.com (Rajen Uppinangadi) Date: Mon, 13 Apr 2009 16:20:34 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Ayodhya, a simple matter of adjudication and courts and judiciary has failed the nation. Message-ID: <61164a90904130350g277a507fiabe038b1721cc36a@mail.gmail.com> The issue is simply the matter of adjudication of issue of ownership of land of admeasuring 42 feet by 65 feet, by the court of India, judges have fudged for decades as spineless individuals waiting for their promotion and made this an emotive issue by the plitical parties for the vote banks. As to Advani and his rath yathra, it should be noted that rath yathra did not start the communal riots, but stoppage of Rathyathra by lalu yadav for vote gains of community in his winning combination of MY equation started the riots, the system of governance did nothing to punish those indulgig in riots but rewarded them with MLA and MP tickets, thus criminalisation became history of indian politics. What should have been disposed off as simple property suit, of a scheduled property, of a dilapidated structure, became masjid without prayers, to become birth point of Lord rama, as if all were the midwifes at the time.? From c.anupam at gmail.com Mon Apr 13 17:05:48 2009 From: c.anupam at gmail.com (anupam chakravartty) Date: Mon, 13 Apr 2009 17:05:48 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Manmohan singh and elections.? In-Reply-To: <61164a90904130332k579c6ddbt303923f144f31a1c@mail.gmail.com> References: <61164a90904130332k579c6ddbt303923f144f31a1c@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <341380d00904130435g66e68395m36277162f125ceac@mail.gmail.com> MR Rajen, Looks like you just dont anything about Assam politics. What would you say to Advani who rushed to Assam after the Guwahati bomb blasts in November and asked the party workers from AGP and BJP to burn the ambulances? What you say to the killing of assamese journalist who exposed the AGP nexus with the surrendered militants? most importantly have you been to assam? stop spreading such bogus agenda here. there are other issues in Assam which needs focus. Assam is not your Hindutva lab. anupam On 4/13/09, Rajen Uppinangadi wrote: > > PM candidate manmohan singh need not vote, he is after all the mohra of > Sonia, as otherwise how can the bomb blasts can take place in Assam as > frequently as is happening now, Tarun Gogoi when found short of MLAs he had > his communal agenda of having support from communal MLAs and the votes were > made easy for refugees by fake voters with ration cards and ids.? > From pawan.durani at gmail.com Mon Apr 13 18:05:01 2009 From: pawan.durani at gmail.com (Pawan Durani) Date: Mon, 13 Apr 2009 18:05:01 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Manmohan singh and elections.? In-Reply-To: <341380d00904130435g66e68395m36277162f125ceac@mail.gmail.com> References: <61164a90904130332k579c6ddbt303923f144f31a1c@mail.gmail.com> <341380d00904130435g66e68395m36277162f125ceac@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <6b79f1a70904130535t5759faa4td348e17288d7addd@mail.gmail.com> Dear Anupam , You have accused Mr Advani of asking party workers of AGP & BJP to burn the ambulances. This is indeed a shocking news for me . Would you kindly substantiate this statement through some evidence or press report . Else it would be considered as yet another disinformation campaign. Warm Regards Pawan On Mon, Apr 13, 2009 at 5:05 PM, anupam chakravartty wrote: > MR Rajen, > > Looks like you just dont anything about Assam politics. What would you say > to Advani who rushed to Assam after the Guwahati bomb blasts in November > and > asked the party workers from AGP and BJP to burn the ambulances? What you > say to the killing of assamese journalist who exposed the AGP nexus with > the > surrendered militants? most importantly have you been to assam? stop > spreading such bogus agenda here. > > there are other issues in Assam which needs focus. Assam is not > your Hindutva lab. > > anupam > > > On 4/13/09, Rajen Uppinangadi wrote: > > > > PM candidate manmohan singh need not vote, he is after all the mohra of > > Sonia, as otherwise how can the bomb blasts can take place in Assam as > > frequently as is happening now, Tarun Gogoi when found short of MLAs he > had > > his communal agenda of having support from communal MLAs and the votes > were > > made easy for refugees by fake voters with ration cards and ids.? > > > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > subscribe in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> > From aliens at dataone.in Mon Apr 13 18:17:21 2009 From: aliens at dataone.in (bipin) Date: Mon, 13 Apr 2009 18:17:21 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] political joke Message-ID: <009801c9bc35$fd582270$0201a8c0@limo> Dear All, In this political environment today, one good political joke bellow. A little boy goes to his dad and asks, "What's politics?" Dad says, " Well son, let me try to explain it this way: I'm the breadwinner of the family, so let's call me Capitalism. Your Mom, she's the administrator of the money, so we'll call her the Government. We're here to take care of your needs so we'll call you the People. The nanny, we'll consider her he Working Class. Now your baby brother, we'll call him the Future. Now, think about that and see if that makes sense." So the little boy goes off to bed thinking about what Dad has said. Later that night, he hears his baby brother crying, so he gets up to check on him, and he finds that the baby has severely soiled his diaper. So the little boy goes to his parents' room and finds his mother fast asleep. Not wanting to wake her, he goes to the nanny's room. Finding the door locked, he peeks in the keyhole and sees his father in bed with the nanny. He gives up and goes back to bed. The next morning, the little boy says to his father, "I think I understand Politics now." The father replies, "Good son, tell me in your own words what you think it is." The boy promptly answers, "Well, while Capitalism is screwing the Working Class, the Government is asleep, the People are being ignored, and the Future is in deep trouble." thanks BIPIN From c.anupam at gmail.com Mon Apr 13 18:26:35 2009 From: c.anupam at gmail.com (anupam chakravartty) Date: Mon, 13 Apr 2009 18:26:35 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Manmohan singh and elections.? In-Reply-To: <6b79f1a70904130535t5759faa4td348e17288d7addd@mail.gmail.com> References: <61164a90904130332k579c6ddbt303923f144f31a1c@mail.gmail.com> <341380d00904130435g66e68395m36277162f125ceac@mail.gmail.com> <6b79f1a70904130535t5759faa4td348e17288d7addd@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <341380d00904130556q191a55b7v18223d70ff4ab91@mail.gmail.com> Dear Pawan, Advani openly accused Gogoi admn of the blasts on TV. Most of the people who burnt the ambulances were from BJP and AGP on that same day in the evening. i agree that emergency services were paralysed. but he shouldnt have made that statement immediately after the blasts. it was there on TV. i think very few people take interest in politics of north east and have any clue about it like Rajen. I know it was because of my last mail he has tried to locate me in assam mailed a post targetting gogoi and assamese issue. i warn mr rajen and anyone who is with him to not try and locate my identity on regional basis. i consider myself to be a part of a larger whole. anupam On 4/13/09, Pawan Durani wrote: > > Dear Anupam , > > You have accused Mr Advani of asking party workers of AGP & BJP to burn the > ambulances. > > This is indeed a shocking news for me . > > Would you kindly substantiate this statement through some evidence or press > report . Else it would be considered as yet another disinformation campaign. > > Warm Regards > > Pawan > > > On Mon, Apr 13, 2009 at 5:05 PM, anupam chakravartty wrote: > >> MR Rajen, >> >> Looks like you just dont anything about Assam politics. What would you say >> to Advani who rushed to Assam after the Guwahati bomb blasts in November >> and >> asked the party workers from AGP and BJP to burn the ambulances? What you >> say to the killing of assamese journalist who exposed the AGP nexus with >> the >> surrendered militants? most importantly have you been to assam? stop >> spreading such bogus agenda here. >> >> there are other issues in Assam which needs focus. Assam is not >> your Hindutva lab. >> >> anupam >> >> >> On 4/13/09, Rajen Uppinangadi wrote: >> > >> > PM candidate manmohan singh need not vote, he is after all the mohra of >> > Sonia, as otherwise how can the bomb blasts can take place in Assam as >> > frequently as is happening now, Tarun Gogoi when found short of MLAs he >> had >> > his communal agenda of having support from communal MLAs and the votes >> were >> > made easy for refugees by fake voters with ration cards and ids.? >> > >> _________________________________________ >> reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. >> Critiques & Collaborations >> To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with >> subscribe in the subject header. >> To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list >> List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> >> > > From rakesh.rnbdj at gmail.com Mon Apr 13 18:35:54 2009 From: rakesh.rnbdj at gmail.com (Rakesh Iyer) Date: Mon, 13 Apr 2009 18:35:54 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Manmohan singh and elections.? In-Reply-To: <341380d00904130556q191a55b7v18223d70ff4ab91@mail.gmail.com> References: <61164a90904130332k579c6ddbt303923f144f31a1c@mail.gmail.com> <341380d00904130435g66e68395m36277162f125ceac@mail.gmail.com> <6b79f1a70904130535t5759faa4td348e17288d7addd@mail.gmail.com> <341380d00904130556q191a55b7v18223d70ff4ab91@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: Dear Anupam ji Accusing an administration for its' alleged mishandling of the blasts (or even carrying out themselves) can't tantamount to openly supporting one's own party workers to indulge in mayhem and violence. It is certainly possible that Advani may have known that after his speech violence would take place. It is also possible that he may have asked for it privately, and then the plot may have been put in practice. However, since there is no proof for either of this, it certainly can't be said legally that Advani exhorted his workers to indulge in violence, unless there is any of his statement in public which means so, or there is any of his actions in private (caught by someone and made public), which resulted in the violence you are talking about. I certainly don't have any great regard for Mr. Advani (except that he did highlight appeasement, but its meaning as he points out is very wrong). But to accuse him like this is stretching the story too far. Regards Rakesh From c.anupam at gmail.com Mon Apr 13 18:47:03 2009 From: c.anupam at gmail.com (anupam chakravartty) Date: Mon, 13 Apr 2009 18:47:03 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Manmohan singh and elections.? In-Reply-To: References: <61164a90904130332k579c6ddbt303923f144f31a1c@mail.gmail.com> <341380d00904130435g66e68395m36277162f125ceac@mail.gmail.com> <6b79f1a70904130535t5759faa4td348e17288d7addd@mail.gmail.com> <341380d00904130556q191a55b7v18223d70ff4ab91@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <341380d00904130617q6a53ec3r37225709e05b012b@mail.gmail.com> dear rakesh, frankly, i dont give a damn. since, there have been so much talk about calling a spade, a spade. I just did that. it is from my presence in the field (meaning the exact location) that i speak what i speak. it is only when you sit in cushy room full of books stinking knowledge and all such things, you would care about who is to be accused or who is to be spared. it is called arm chair intellectualism in a common man's parlance. all i can say is that Congress over the past five years in assam has brought much good to its people than what it did previously. it was a realisation and it is communally a very conducive atmosphere for religions to grow and flourish. so please leave the north east. these concerns are fake. no one gives two hoots to what a bangladeshi immigrant goes through while crossing the borders in boat full of pineaaples bribing the BSF and BDR officials. how several people take advantage of his situation. my experience, again is from the field not from some book. thank you. i wish to speak no more on this. anupam On 4/13/09, Rakesh Iyer wrote: > > Dear Anupam ji > > Accusing an administration for its' alleged mishandling of the blasts (or > even carrying out themselves) can't tantamount to openly supporting one's > own party workers to indulge in mayhem and violence. It is certainly > possible that Advani may have known that after his speech violence would > take place. It is also possible that he may have asked for it privately, and > then the plot may have been put in practice. > > However, since there is no proof for either of this, it certainly can't be > said legally that Advani exhorted his workers to indulge in violence, unless > there is any of his statement in public which means so, or there is any of > his actions in private (caught by someone and made public), which resulted > in the violence you are talking about. > > I certainly don't have any great regard for Mr. Advani (except that he did > highlight appeasement, but its meaning as he points out is very wrong). But > to accuse him like this is stretching the story too far. > > Regards > > Rakesh > From alinamal2009 at gmail.com Mon Apr 13 19:01:10 2009 From: alinamal2009 at gmail.com (Alina MediaArtLab) Date: Mon, 13 Apr 2009 17:31:10 +0400 Subject: [Reader-list] CALL FOR ENTRIES!!!X Media Forum in the frames of Moscow International Film Festival Message-ID: <58e659f0904130631gba7025bud65711d4d447d88e@mail.gmail.com> MediaArtLab Centre for Culture has started to receive requests for taking part in Media Forum 2009. It will be held in the frame of 31 Moscow International Film Festival from 23 to 28 of June. This is the 10 years Media Forum exists. The objective of Media Forum is to demonstrate the connection between traditional and modern branches of screen culture, the impact of technological innovations on visual arts. We hope that you will be interested to learn more about Media Forum 2009 here http://mediaforum.mediaartlab.ru/en/ From c.anupam at gmail.com Mon Apr 13 19:07:18 2009 From: c.anupam at gmail.com (anupam chakravartty) Date: Mon, 13 Apr 2009 19:07:18 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Manmohan singh and elections.? In-Reply-To: <341380d00904130617q6a53ec3r37225709e05b012b@mail.gmail.com> References: <61164a90904130332k579c6ddbt303923f144f31a1c@mail.gmail.com> <341380d00904130435g66e68395m36277162f125ceac@mail.gmail.com> <6b79f1a70904130535t5759faa4td348e17288d7addd@mail.gmail.com> <341380d00904130556q191a55b7v18223d70ff4ab91@mail.gmail.com> <341380d00904130617q6a53ec3r37225709e05b012b@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <341380d00904130637x57193282oa9c525392c19127f@mail.gmail.com> by the way I want Rajen to answer.. HOW MANY TIMES HAS HE BEEN TO ASSAM? On 4/13/09, anupam chakravartty wrote: > > dear rakesh, > > frankly, i dont give a damn. since, there have been so much talk about > calling a spade, a spade. I just did that. it is from my presence in the > field (meaning the exact location) that i speak what i speak. it is only > when you sit in cushy room full of books stinking knowledge and all such > things, you would care about who is to be accused or who is to be spared. it > is called arm chair intellectualism in a common man's parlance. all i can > say is that Congress over the past five years in assam has brought much good > to its people than what it did previously. it was a realisation and it is > communally a very conducive atmosphere for religions to grow and flourish. > so please leave the north east. these concerns are fake. no one gives two > hoots to what a bangladeshi immigrant goes through while crossing the > borders in boat full of pineaaples bribing the BSF and BDR officials. how > several people take advantage of his situation. my experience, again is from > the field not from some book. > > thank you. i wish to speak no more on this. > anupam > > > On 4/13/09, Rakesh Iyer wrote: >> >> Dear Anupam ji >> >> Accusing an administration for its' alleged mishandling of the blasts (or >> even carrying out themselves) can't tantamount to openly supporting one's >> own party workers to indulge in mayhem and violence. It is certainly >> possible that Advani may have known that after his speech violence would >> take place. It is also possible that he may have asked for it privately, and >> then the plot may have been put in practice. >> >> However, since there is no proof for either of this, it certainly can't be >> said legally that Advani exhorted his workers to indulge in violence, unless >> there is any of his statement in public which means so, or there is any of >> his actions in private (caught by someone and made public), which resulted >> in the violence you are talking about. >> >> I certainly don't have any great regard for Mr. Advani (except that he did >> highlight appeasement, but its meaning as he points out is very wrong). But >> to accuse him like this is stretching the story too far. >> >> Regards >> >> Rakesh >> > > From javedmasoo at gmail.com Mon Apr 13 19:15:24 2009 From: javedmasoo at gmail.com (M Javed) Date: Mon, 13 Apr 2009 19:15:24 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] The True Face of Ulemas and Maolvis In-Reply-To: <829052.5747.qm@web46214.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> References: <829052.5747.qm@web46214.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: Dear Mard-e Mujahid Before one can believe or even start enjoying the stories you have posted in this message, one would ask the following: - what is the source of this message? Who is Anonymous? Is it you? How can we believe what anonymous says? - who are you? What is your motive of posting this message here? - why post it on Sarai-list? What are you expecting? I am not claiming that moulvis and ulemas are above all this kind of sins and never indulge in all the debauchery you have explained, but why bring this topic on Sarai? One usually hears such kind of stories as rumours at chai-shops, bus stands, mohalla-corners or outside mosques among people who would include 10-abusive words in each sentence and then run up to the nearest brothel themselves. But when you post such a message on Sarai-list, it would be produced as the ultimate proof of the despotism of Islam and Muslim mullahs. Kindly provide answers to the above questions and provide a proper source for this mail before one can take it seriously. Thanks Javed On Mon, Apr 13, 2009 at 10:25 AM, Mujahid Haq wrote: > The True Face of Ulemas and Maolvis: > >           Today, i am writing on very sensitive topic based on practical experience. i don't know from where to start this topics & whether it is safe to discuss here about a topic which may prove to be a very contraversing topic for readers, especially for my Muslim brothers who are reluctant to any reality which is in opposite direction to their belief. First of all i would like to say i'm a punjabi/urdu speaking person and English is not my mother tongue so kindly ignore my spelling or grammar or idiomatic mistakes. Now let me come to the topic. >           We people follow our religious leaders blindly without exploring their characters and morals. [by religious leaders i didn't mean the pious saints and prophets]. I have a relative who is much older than me but we are like friends because of similarity in our thinking. He was a very pious person and was a fan of Sadat Hasan Manto, a bold and dauntless writer of India-Pakistan. He read Manto critically and what he wrote in his works he decided to judge it's reality in his present situation. He was infect doing research on prostitutes and what force them to do such a vulgar job. Once he told me that once upon a time he went with his friend (I) to Qari Sakhi Muhammad Sealwi, a famous religious scholar of Punjab, Pakistan. [Literary, 'Qari' means one who recites > Quran] > > Their 'I' introduced him with Qari. After a brief introduction from both sides their 'ceremony' started and a 'twayef' (prostitute dancer) entered in the room and Qari stand up from the sofa and hug the lady and they both start dancing.[don't think they already know each other both were strangers for each other; infect she was booked for few hours for Qari and his guests]. He was shocked to see a molvi dancing and kissing and hugging a lady. Qari invited his quests to accompany him on which 'I' joined him but he remained seated but keep laughing since it was his first experience to see a molvi dancing……. This is incident of 1990's. One more thing which I would like to say that Qari was a property dealer in religion's cloak. He formed several madrasas (schools) in different locations of Punjab and especially in Lahore. Most of his madrasas are for female students and were upto 10th grade. Where only girls from poor families study. All beautifully >  girls of his schools were 'enjoyed' by him and his ally. He also used to supply girls to local bodies/ badmaash and political people.  that Qari died in 2008 and is now revered here as a 'holy man'. >            I have my several cousins in European countires. One of my cousins is in Germany. On his arrival to lahore he told me that while he was in a bar dancing with his girl friend he saw Maulana Fazul-al- Rehman, a religious and political leader of Paksitan, dancing in the club in full 'masti'. He was very surprised to see him but I was much surprised when I heared that. >            I know a trust worthy person 'X' who went to Saudia Arab with his colony-fellows for earning in 1985's. Their they were employed in an a construction firm located in Mecca. The 2 men from them were 'pakay zaani' (playboys). After spending few days in Mecca they started searching for a brothel. One day, they reached a brothel, located in a VIP's colony in a palace-like double story house, with a third person (which was older-settled in Saudia than the two). When they reached their, they saw a palace in the neighbor of that brothel. Out side the palace policemen and guards were on duty and to see them those 'two' start trembling while the third remained cool. They were further shocked when they read on the name plate of palace that it belong to Imam-e-Kaaba, the most respected and 'pious' personality of Muslim world. They decided to return since they thought the third person is fooling with them. The third one compel them to enter the >  brothel and say don't afraid go inside their every thing will be ok etc etc. but they didn't agree. Then the third one called (awaz lagana) in the brothel and a lady (nayeka, manager of that brothel) appeared in the teris/ balcony. The third one said to him your guest are afraid of your neighbour and have give-up the idea to stay here…. Then they both start laughing while that two remain still like idols. Then that lady welcomed her guests warmly and succeeded in overcoming their fear. At last they entered. On reaching inside the lady and third person start laughing to their will. The lady told them, don't afraid of that police since it was for your protection (then she laugh) and neither afraid of Imam(-e-Kaba) since he is over foremost 'gahak' (one who went to shop). When ever I had 'naya maal' (i.e., new girls) he is first to enjoy them……." The 'two' were so shocked that they can't utter a single world. Then they were provided by the lady a >  little refreshment and then their 'work' start……. > Here I remember poet Iqbal's verse: > Dayhati ho k shehri ho Musalman hai saada > Manind-e-butaan pujtay hain Kabay k Brehman >   [whether a Muslim is of city or village he is simple(i.e., Easy to be deceived). They worship the "Brahmins of Kaba" like idols (without looking at their characters etc)] >                The same 'X' went to Pakistan after ending his job in Saudia started investing his money in various works. At one time he bought few rickshaws (3 wheel vehicle used as taxi) and appointed drivers. The drivers took up his rickshaws in early morning and roam in the city in search for passengers and return the home in night where they give their  earning to the owner 'X' from which he gave them their payment. This was their daily routine. One of these (let 'R') drivers' earning was always greater than the others and he was always last one to come; sometime he came in midnight. The 'X' keeps an eye on his rickshaws, as other owners do, that whether his drivers are doing the job honestly or not. Once he was sitting at a chok (round about) with other owners counting the 'phairas' (routes) of his rickshaws.. He saw his rickshaw ( 'R') stopped  near a big black luxury car/cruiser. From the rickshaw a well-dressed girl appears and >  entered in the car. When the car passed near the chok he looked inside; it was being drived by Allama Sajid Nakwi, a religious scholar of Shia'muslims and a leader of a religious party. He was little bit confused and think it might happen that he couldn't see the person rightly and that person resembles with Sajid but not the Sajid himself. In evening, when all rickshaws came he enquired 'R' about that incident. He said if he is not wrong than that person in car was Sajid Nakwi? Driver was surprised and replied 'yes'. He admitted that without any hesitation and reluctance because 'X'  has very brotherly attitude with drivers. Then he opened the whole story. He told he is supplying 'butterflies' (i.e., girls) to Ulemas and local bodies which include Sajid Nakwi, Tahir-ul-Qadri, Qari Sakhi Mohammad, Al-Haaj Sheikh Rohil Asghar etc. for which he got very sufficient earning. He said he earn much large money than he provide to him in the end of day. Then he >  offered him to be a part of his net work which he refused. The story has a disastrous effect on 'X'. He asked 'R' "tu kisi din mujay phanswaye ga"(you will create a problem for me in future). On which 'R' replied, "aap to pehlay hi phansay huay hain..kabhi thanay main ja kar is rikshay ki report to daikhain, isay darjanoon dafa police nay pakrra hai magar isko churranay walay be 'wohi' hain" (you are already in problem. Your this rickshaw is caught several time by police of different stations but always 'they' themselves saved it etc). > Next day he went to local police station and show his rickshaw's number their and inquire about it. The police man revealed that we several time caught this rikshaw of this number for illegal works but whenever we took it to our station the very movement we are rang up by 'respected personalities''s calls so we had to leave it without further investigation etc. This confirmed 'R''s story. > Latter, 'X' sold his all rickshaws and free all drivers and start investing in properties. > Few days latter while he was in his home some one knocked at his door. He opened the door and was surprised to see Sajid Nakwi standing their. This shocked him very much. They shake hands and Sajid took him to his car. In his car he saw  Tahir-ul-Qadri, the religious scholar of Sunni'muslims and now know as Sheikh-ul-Islam[the greatest leader of muslims]. Sajid was informed by 'R' that 'X' is well known of their 'work'. So he came to pressurize him that if he disclosed anything he will create 'problem' for himself and his family. Sajid start discussion in friendly environment and ended in harsh words. When he ended, Tahir said, "Sahih tarhaan samja dea hai na?"(did you convince him rightly) and he replied "bilkul"(surley).and then they depart. > Here I'll quote a verse of Bulleh Shah > "Bahroon saaf hoyoon ke hunda jay diloon na gaye palitee” >  (physically you appear clean and from inside you are dirty) > I have these stories in my hearts from several years. One day I've to die and I don't want to take these 'heavy stones' with me so I decided to disclose it to you so that you could see we can't judge a personality from his physical look or worldly reputation since those who look physically pious are much vulgar than a prostitute! > > Anonymous > > > > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with subscribe in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: From vashsand at hotmail.com Mon Apr 13 19:36:38 2009 From: vashsand at hotmail.com (Sandeep) Date: Mon, 13 Apr 2009 16:06:38 +0200 Subject: [Reader-list] Seize the moment Message-ID: Dear Taha first of all im not seeking apologies neither from individuals nor from groups. as far as i remember i havent came across any self criticism by intellectuals of muslim background regarding spreading of islam or islams relation to pagan and non-islamic world. The reason may be so simple that in wake of western imperialism it wasnt thought to correct to question culture/history of colonised people. case of hindus was difference the caste oppression was so blatant that hindus were forced criticize it if they wanted to mobalise anybody in so called anti imperialist struggel. Another thing is ur use of term "complexities". yes world is complex even nazism was complex with different groups competiting with each other in the nazi movement. If one agrees with how ur defining hindus and muslim, one would come to conclusion that there was never a hindu-muslim riot in south asias history its always some sect agaisnt another sect of complex social formation. And if one is more daring one could indvidual is complex, as som poststrutculists say that its a modern fiction. and consequently only fictions die in riots and wars nothing to worry about. And u say muslims and hindus being modern terms in way i agree but I think u ovegeneralise it, just look at ulems oppostion to Akbars experiment of din -e- elahi. Or akbars attempt to convert to hinduism was met by brahmin outrage a mlech. as concerning RSS and Left just look at nuclear deal discussion both were speaking same language national-soverginity etc. Sandeep _________________________________________________________________ Show them the way! Add maps and directions to your party invites. http://www.microsoft.com/windows/windowslive/products/events.aspx From kshmendra2005 at yahoo.com Mon Apr 13 19:49:43 2009 From: kshmendra2005 at yahoo.com (Kshmendra Kaul) Date: Mon, 13 Apr 2009 07:19:43 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Reader-list] Manmohan singh and elections.? In-Reply-To: <341380d00904130637x57193282oa9c525392c19127f@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <993235.33161.qm@web57204.mail.re3.yahoo.com> Dear Rakesh   Like you, I have no great regard for Advani. I have no regard for him. In fact I consider Anti-India any such ideology which tries to bring about a divide amongst the people of India. Hindutvaism is one such contemptible and dangerous movement.   That is not the point though.   The question that you have rightly raised is whether it is ethical for words or acts to be ascribed to anyone without there being any evidence for it. No it is not. But on this List we have that happening repeatedly. And such people get away with it. (it was not that I did not register your earlier mail asking for my exchanges with another person to stop, but it was the ethics involved that were to be sorted out and still have to be)   An interesting defence has been put up by Anupam about calling a spade a spade (which incidentally used to be at one time a racially derogratory word) which is a nothingness if it was meant to be evidence.   Also amusing is his counter-questioning about how many times has this one or that one been to this place or that place.   That makes me wonder:   - how many times have people who comment on Kashmir or Palestine or Iraq or Afghanistan or Nandigram or Kandhamal (as just some examples) been to those places   This is in no way meant to question Anupam's knowledge about Assam or doubt his very obvious heartfelt sinceritity  and concern for Assam.   Kshmendra    --- On Mon, 4/13/09, anupam chakravartty wrote: From: anupam chakravartty Subject: Re: [Reader-list] Manmohan singh and elections.? To: "sarai list" Date: Monday, April 13, 2009, 7:07 PM by the way I want Rajen to answer.. HOW MANY TIMES HAS HE BEEN TO ASSAM? On 4/13/09, anupam chakravartty wrote: > > dear rakesh, > > frankly, i dont give a damn. since, there have been so much talk about > calling a spade, a spade. I just did that. it is from my presence in the > field (meaning the exact location) that i speak what i speak. it is only > when you sit in cushy room full of books stinking knowledge and all such > things, you would care about who is to be accused or who is to be spared. it > is called arm chair intellectualism in a common man's parlance. all i can > say is that Congress over the past five years in assam has brought much good > to its people than what it did previously. it was a realisation and it is > communally a very conducive atmosphere for religions to grow and flourish. > so please leave the north east. these concerns are fake. no one gives two > hoots to what a bangladeshi immigrant goes through while crossing the > borders in boat full of pineaaples bribing the BSF and BDR officials. how > several people take advantage of his situation. my experience, again is from > the field not from some book. > > thank you. i wish to speak no more on this. > anupam > > > On 4/13/09, Rakesh Iyer wrote: >> >> Dear Anupam ji >> >> Accusing an administration for its' alleged mishandling of the blasts (or >> even carrying out themselves) can't tantamount to openly supporting one's >> own party workers to indulge in mayhem and violence. It is certainly >> possible that Advani may have known that after his speech violence would >> take place. It is also possible that he may have asked for it privately, and >> then the plot may have been put in practice. >> >> However, since there is no proof for either of this, it certainly can't be >> said legally that Advani exhorted his workers to indulge in violence, unless >> there is any of his statement in public which means so, or there is any of >> his actions in private (caught by someone and made public), which resulted >> in the violence you are talking about. >> >> I certainly don't have any great regard for Mr. Advani (except that he did >> highlight appeasement, but its meaning as he points out is very wrong). But >> to accuse him like this is stretching the story too far. >> >> Regards >> >> Rakesh >> > > _________________________________________ reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. Critiques & Collaborations To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with subscribe in the subject header. To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> From kshmendra2005 at yahoo.com Mon Apr 13 19:53:40 2009 From: kshmendra2005 at yahoo.com (Kshmendra Kaul) Date: Mon, 13 Apr 2009 07:23:40 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Reader-list] The True Face of Ulemas and Maolvis In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <672479.482.qm@web57203.mail.re3.yahoo.com> Dear Javed   I am surprised that you should give any importance to what is obviously a malicious posting from a demented mind.   Kshmendra --- On Mon, 4/13/09, M Javed wrote: From: M Javed Subject: Re: [Reader-list] The True Face of Ulemas and Maolvis To: "Mujahid Haq" Cc: reader-list at sarai.net Date: Monday, April 13, 2009, 7:15 PM Dear Mard-e Mujahid Before one can believe or even start enjoying the stories you have posted in this message, one would ask the following: - what is the source of this message? Who is Anonymous? Is it you? How can we believe what anonymous says? - who are you? What is your motive of posting this message here? - why post it on Sarai-list? What are you expecting? I am not claiming that moulvis and ulemas are above all this kind of sins and never indulge in all the debauchery you have explained, but why bring this topic on Sarai? One usually hears such kind of stories as rumours at chai-shops, bus stands, mohalla-corners or outside mosques among people who would include 10-abusive words in each sentence and then run up to the nearest brothel themselves. But when you post such a message on Sarai-list, it would be produced as the ultimate proof of the despotism of Islam and Muslim mullahs. Kindly provide answers to the above questions and provide a proper source for this mail before one can take it seriously. Thanks Javed On Mon, Apr 13, 2009 at 10:25 AM, Mujahid Haq wrote: > The True Face of Ulemas and Maolvis: > >           Today, i am writing on very sensitive topic based on practical experience. i don't know from where to start this topics & whether it is safe to discuss here about a topic which may prove to be a very contraversing topic for readers, especially for my Muslim brothers who are reluctant to any reality which is in opposite direction to their belief. First of all i would like to say i'm a punjabi/urdu speaking person and English is not my mother tongue so kindly ignore my spelling or grammar or idiomatic mistakes. Now let me come to the topic. >           We people follow our religious leaders blindly without exploring their characters and morals. [by religious leaders i didn't mean the pious saints and prophets]. I have a relative who is much older than me but we are like friends because of similarity in our thinking. He was a very pious person and was a fan of Sadat Hasan Manto, a bold and dauntless writer of India-Pakistan. He read Manto critically and what he wrote in his works he decided to judge it's reality in his present situation. He was infect doing research on prostitutes and what force them to do such a vulgar job. Once he told me that once upon a time he went with his friend (I) to Qari Sakhi Muhammad Sealwi, a famous religious scholar of Punjab, Pakistan. [Literary, 'Qari' means one who recites > Quran] > > Their 'I' introduced him with Qari. After a brief introduction from both sides their 'ceremony' started and a 'twayef' (prostitute dancer) entered in the room and Qari stand up from the sofa and hug the lady and they both start dancing.[don't think they already know each other both were strangers for each other; infect she was booked for few hours for Qari and his guests]. He was shocked to see a molvi dancing and kissing and hugging a lady. Qari invited his quests to accompany him on which 'I' joined him but he remained seated but keep laughing since it was his first experience to see a molvi dancing……. This is incident of 1990's. One more thing which I would like to say that Qari was a property dealer in religion's cloak. He formed several madrasas (schools) in different locations of Punjab and especially in Lahore. Most of his madrasas are for female students and were upto 10th grade. Where only girls from poor families study. All beautifully >  girls of his schools were 'enjoyed' by him and his ally. He also used to supply girls to local bodies/ badmaash and political people.  that Qari died in 2008 and is now revered here as a 'holy man'. >            I have my several cousins in European countires. One of my cousins is in Germany. On his arrival to lahore he told me that while he was in a bar dancing with his girl friend he saw Maulana Fazul-al- Rehman, a religious and political leader of Paksitan, dancing in the club in full 'masti'. He was very surprised to see him but I was much surprised when I heared that. >            I know a trust worthy person 'X' who went to Saudia Arab with his colony-fellows for earning in 1985's. Their they were employed in an a construction firm located in Mecca. The 2 men from them were 'pakay zaani' (playboys). After spending few days in Mecca they started searching for a brothel. One day, they reached a brothel, located in a VIP's colony in a palace-like double story house, with a third person (which was older-settled in Saudia than the two). When they reached their, they saw a palace in the neighbor of that brothel. Out side the palace policemen and guards were on duty and to see them those 'two' start trembling while the third remained cool. They were further shocked when they read on the name plate of palace that it belong to Imam-e-Kaaba, the most respected and 'pious' personality of Muslim world. They decided to return since they thought the third person is fooling with them. The third one compel them to enter the >  brothel and say don't afraid go inside their every thing will be ok etc etc. but they didn't agree. Then the third one called (awaz lagana) in the brothel and a lady (nayeka, manager of that brothel) appeared in the teris/ balcony. The third one said to him your guest are afraid of your neighbour and have give-up the idea to stay here…. Then they both start laughing while that two remain still like idols. Then that lady welcomed her guests warmly and succeeded in overcoming their fear. At last they entered. On reaching inside the lady and third person start laughing to their will. The lady told them, don't afraid of that police since it was for your protection (then she laugh) and neither afraid of Imam(-e-Kaba) since he is over foremost 'gahak' (one who went to shop). When ever I had 'naya maal' (i.e., new girls) he is first to enjoy them……." The 'two' were so shocked that they can't utter a single world. Then they were provided by the lady a >  little refreshment and then their 'work' start……. > Here I remember poet Iqbal's verse: > Dayhati ho k shehri ho Musalman hai saada > Manind-e-butaan pujtay hain Kabay k Brehman >   [whether a Muslim is of city or village he is simple(i.e., Easy to be deceived). They worship the "Brahmins of Kaba" like idols (without looking at their characters etc)] >                The same 'X' went to Pakistan after ending his job in Saudia started investing his money in various works. At one time he bought few rickshaws (3 wheel vehicle used as taxi) and appointed drivers. The drivers took up his rickshaws in early morning and roam in the city in search for passengers and return the home in night where they give their  earning to the owner 'X' from which he gave them their payment. This was their daily routine. One of these (let 'R') drivers' earning was always greater than the others and he was always last one to come; sometime he came in midnight. The 'X' keeps an eye on his rickshaws, as other owners do, that whether his drivers are doing the job honestly or not. Once he was sitting at a chok (round about) with other owners counting the 'phairas' (routes) of his rickshaws.. He saw his rickshaw ( 'R') stopped  near a big black luxury car/cruiser. From the rickshaw a well-dressed girl appears and >  entered in the car. When the car passed near the chok he looked inside; it was being drived by Allama Sajid Nakwi, a religious scholar of Shia'muslims and a leader of a religious party. He was little bit confused and think it might happen that he couldn't see the person rightly and that person resembles with Sajid but not the Sajid himself. In evening, when all rickshaws came he enquired 'R' about that incident. He said if he is not wrong than that person in car was Sajid Nakwi? Driver was surprised and replied 'yes'. He admitted that without any hesitation and reluctance because 'X'  has very brotherly attitude with drivers. Then he opened the whole story. He told he is supplying 'butterflies' (i.e., girls) to Ulemas and local bodies which include Sajid Nakwi, Tahir-ul-Qadri, Qari Sakhi Mohammad, Al-Haaj Sheikh Rohil Asghar etc. for which he got very sufficient earning. He said he earn much large money than he provide to him in the end of day. Then he >  offered him to be a part of his net work which he refused. The story has a disastrous effect on 'X'. He asked 'R' "tu kisi din mujay phanswaye ga"(you will create a problem for me in future). On which 'R' replied, "aap to pehlay hi phansay huay hain..kabhi thanay main ja kar is rikshay ki report to daikhain, isay darjanoon dafa police nay pakrra hai magar isko churranay walay be 'wohi' hain" (you are already in problem. Your this rickshaw is caught several time by police of different stations but always 'they' themselves saved it etc). > Next day he went to local police station and show his rickshaw's number their and inquire about it. The police man revealed that we several time caught this rikshaw of this number for illegal works but whenever we took it to our station the very movement we are rang up by 'respected personalities''s calls so we had to leave it without further investigation etc. This confirmed 'R''s story. > Latter, 'X' sold his all rickshaws and free all drivers and start investing in properties. > Few days latter while he was in his home some one knocked at his door. He opened the door and was surprised to see Sajid Nakwi standing their. This shocked him very much. They shake hands and Sajid took him to his car. In his car he saw  Tahir-ul-Qadri, the religious scholar of Sunni'muslims and now know as Sheikh-ul-Islam[the greatest leader of muslims]. Sajid was informed by 'R' that 'X' is well known of their 'work'. So he came to pressurize him that if he disclosed anything he will create 'problem' for himself and his family. Sajid start discussion in friendly environment and ended in harsh words. When he ended, Tahir said, "Sahih tarhaan samja dea hai na?"(did you convince him rightly) and he replied "bilkul"(surley).and then they depart. > Here I'll quote a verse of Bulleh Shah > "Bahroon saaf hoyoon ke hunda jay diloon na gaye palitee” >  (physically you appear clean and from inside you are dirty) > I have these stories in my hearts from several years. One day I've to die and I don't want to take these 'heavy stones' with me so I decided to disclose it to you so that you could see we can't judge a personality from his physical look or worldly reputation since those who look physically pious are much vulgar than a prostitute! > > Anonymous > > > > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with subscribe in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: _________________________________________ reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. Critiques & Collaborations To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with subscribe in the subject header. To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> From rakesh.rnbdj at gmail.com Mon Apr 13 20:26:26 2009 From: rakesh.rnbdj at gmail.com (Rakesh Iyer) Date: Mon, 13 Apr 2009 20:26:26 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Manmohan singh and elections.? In-Reply-To: <993235.33161.qm@web57204.mail.re3.yahoo.com> References: <341380d00904130637x57193282oa9c525392c19127f@mail.gmail.com> <993235.33161.qm@web57204.mail.re3.yahoo.com> Message-ID: Dear Anupam ji I never meant that Advani is not an accused or an accused. However, one has to put out facts before that. And since you state that it's arm chair intellectualism, I would like to point out that it's this very intellectualism which ensures that people are punished duly as per the law. Hence, whether you like it or not (equally for me as well), we have to accept that such statements must be made very carefully, whether by Advani or by you. I don't know about Congress rule in Assam, so I won't speak on it. And the way you go about, Narendra Modi will be accused of raping women in Gujarat riots!! That is not the fact. He is blamed because being the chief minister, he had the state power at his disposal to control the mobs. He failed in that. Many police officers then told the survivors that they had been told not to use guns for 72 hours. Moreover, his government failed to do what was required for those living in relief camps post-riots, which tells another story of its own. That does not mean he is a rapist. (This is just an analogy. I mean to say Advani can be accused indirectly, but certainly not directly. I believe the former, you seem to be drifting towards the latter.) And unfortunately, whether you like it or not, one has to care. Because one's understanding of any society must be based on sound reason and rational analysis. There certainly can be bias (within me or you), but we must certainly try to look at it from a neutral perspective. And being a reporter, you certainly are more in touch with the society, which I respect. But being the reporter one must also remember, believe something which is provable beyond doubt. Otherwise, it would lead only to sensationalism. Regards Rakesh From c.anupam at gmail.com Mon Apr 13 20:57:58 2009 From: c.anupam at gmail.com (anupam chakravartty) Date: Mon, 13 Apr 2009 20:57:58 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Manmohan singh and elections.? In-Reply-To: References: <341380d00904130637x57193282oa9c525392c19127f@mail.gmail.com> <993235.33161.qm@web57204.mail.re3.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <341380d00904130827n25617afsbff509c7558bd05c@mail.gmail.com> Dear Rakesh I do not dispute what you are saying but something that triggered of the reaction among BJP and AGP workers was this one statement. that is why i blame advani and i accuse him too. all reasoning, all arguments fail when a mob of 100 people runs towards you. i am sure you havent been chased or beaten up ever. even if you have been, it was once in a lifetime experience. i would not like to make it dramatic anymore beyond this point but frankly you know why name calling and all such other things happens in this group because when all reasoning fails one starts behaving like a swine. i just hope it doesnt happen in this group. the topic bomb blasts is raised by rajen but he hasnt replied, which is why im annoyed. thanks anupam On 4/13/09, Rakesh Iyer wrote: > > Dear Anupam ji > > I never meant that Advani is not an accused or an accused. However, one has > to put out facts before that. And since you state that it's arm chair > intellectualism, I would like to point out that it's this very > intellectualism which ensures that people are punished duly as per the law. > Hence, whether you like it or not (equally for me as well), we have to > accept that such statements must be made very carefully, whether by Advani > or by you. > > I don't know about Congress rule in Assam, so I won't speak on it. > > And the way you go about, Narendra Modi will be accused of raping women in > Gujarat riots!! That is not the fact. He is blamed because being the chief > minister, he had the state power at his disposal to control the mobs. He > failed in that. Many police officers then told the survivors that they had > been told not to use guns for 72 hours. Moreover, his government failed to > do what was required for those living in relief camps post-riots, which > tells another story of its own. That does not mean he is a rapist. (This is > just an analogy. I mean to say Advani can be accused indirectly, but > certainly not directly. I believe the former, you seem to be drifting > towards the latter.) > > And unfortunately, whether you like it or not, one has to care. Because > one's understanding of any society must be based on sound reason and > rational analysis. There certainly can be bias (within me or you), but we > must certainly try to look at it from a neutral perspective. And being a > reporter, you certainly are more in touch with the society, which I respect. > > > But being the reporter one must also remember, believe something which is > provable beyond doubt. Otherwise, it would lead only to sensationalism. > > Regards > > Rakesh > From c.anupam at gmail.com Mon Apr 13 21:02:25 2009 From: c.anupam at gmail.com (anupam chakravartty) Date: Mon, 13 Apr 2009 21:02:25 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Fwd: Manmohan singh and elections.? In-Reply-To: <341380d00904130827n25617afsbff509c7558bd05c@mail.gmail.com> References: <341380d00904130637x57193282oa9c525392c19127f@mail.gmail.com> <993235.33161.qm@web57204.mail.re3.yahoo.com> <341380d00904130827n25617afsbff509c7558bd05c@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <341380d00904130832y32654b98w41afe5d749f2269a@mail.gmail.com> Dear Rajen Where are you? HAVE YOU REACHED ASSAM YET? anupam ---------- Forwarded message ---------- From: anupam chakravartty Date: Apr 13, 2009 8:57 PM Subject: Re: [Reader-list] Manmohan singh and elections.? To: sarai list Dear Rakesh I do not dispute what you are saying but something that triggered of the reaction among BJP and AGP workers was this one statement. that is why i blame advani and i accuse him too. all reasoning, all arguments fail when a mob of 100 people runs towards you. i am sure you havent been chased or beaten up ever. even if you have been, it was once in a lifetime experience. i would not like to make it dramatic anymore beyond this point but frankly you know why name calling and all such other things happens in this group because when all reasoning fails one starts behaving like a swine. i just hope it doesnt happen in this group. the topic bomb blasts is raised by rajen but he hasnt replied, which is why im annoyed. thanks anupam On 4/13/09, Rakesh Iyer wrote: > > Dear Anupam ji > > I never meant that Advani is not an accused or an accused. However, one has > to put out facts before that. And since you state that it's arm chair > intellectualism, I would like to point out that it's this very > intellectualism which ensures that people are punished duly as per the law. > Hence, whether you like it or not (equally for me as well), we have to > accept that such statements must be made very carefully, whether by Advani > or by you. > > I don't know about Congress rule in Assam, so I won't speak on it. > > And the way you go about, Narendra Modi will be accused of raping women in > Gujarat riots!! That is not the fact. He is blamed because being the chief > minister, he had the state power at his disposal to control the mobs. He > failed in that. Many police officers then told the survivors that they had > been told not to use guns for 72 hours. Moreover, his government failed to > do what was required for those living in relief camps post-riots, which > tells another story of its own. That does not mean he is a rapist. (This is > just an analogy. I mean to say Advani can be accused indirectly, but > certainly not directly. I believe the former, you seem to be drifting > towards the latter.) > > And unfortunately, whether you like it or not, one has to care. Because > one's understanding of any society must be based on sound reason and > rational analysis. There certainly can be bias (within me or you), but we > must certainly try to look at it from a neutral perspective. And being a > reporter, you certainly are more in touch with the society, which I respect. > > > But being the reporter one must also remember, believe something which is > provable beyond doubt. Otherwise, it would lead only to sensationalism. > > Regards > > Rakesh > From vivek at sarai.net Mon Apr 13 23:03:24 2009 From: vivek at sarai.net (Vivek Narayanan) Date: Mon, 13 Apr 2009 23:03:24 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] The True Face of Ulemas and Maolvis In-Reply-To: References: <829052.5747.qm@web46214.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <49E37764.7000805@sarai.net> Javed and Kshemendra, Both of you have reacted to this note in a way that I didn't expect--but I guess that's what makes this list compelling. I personally didn't need answers to all those questions to begin enjoying-- and even believing-- the stories posted here. Moreover, I don't see them as absolute proof of anything, let alone the "despotism of Islam" or of all "Muslim mullahs". I don't think these stories were narrated to malign Islam. To start with, they simply reflect the typical behaviour of powerful and influential people everywhere. Beyond this, they seem to suggest that many religious leaders are more interested in secular power than religious observance, and that the little man--reflected in this case by the narrator's older relative--tends to be the one who is truly pious, sometimes naively so, even to a fault, and practises what he preaches. Sajid Naqwi in the second story makes regular use of prostitutes not only because he is horny but also because he knows he is above the law. In the past decades there have been similar tales of power hungry evangelist Christian preachers (in America) caught, similarly, with their pants down. We know, informally, that such behaviour can certainly be found among the Hindutva brigade-- for whom piety is often the lowest priority-- I wouldn't mind any first hand stories, if anyone has them and is bold enough. Whether narrated on the reader list or made even richer with detailed rhythmic salvos of expletives, just outside the shrine, such tales make us doubt the words and practice of those who would rule and regulate our lives. In my book, the encouragement of doubt is a good thing. Of course, I'd love to know more about the context for this posting; however, given the evidently sensitive nature of the subject, that's a lot to ask. At any rate, even as stories, they remind me of the questing, fearless, sometimes naughty and sometimes melancholy spirit of Manto, who finds a mention here. Vivek M Javed wrote: > Dear Mard-e Mujahid > Before one can believe or even start enjoying the stories you have > posted in this message, one would ask the following: > > - what is the source of this message? Who is Anonymous? Is it you? How > can we believe what anonymous says? > - who are you? What is your motive of posting this message here? > - why post it on Sarai-list? What are you expecting? > > I am not claiming that moulvis and ulemas are above all this kind of > sins and never indulge in all the debauchery you have explained, but > why bring this topic on Sarai? One usually hears such kind of stories > as rumours at chai-shops, bus stands, mohalla-corners or outside > mosques among people who would include 10-abusive words in each > sentence and then run up to the nearest brothel themselves. But when > you post such a message on Sarai-list, it would be produced as the > ultimate proof of the despotism of Islam and Muslim mullahs. > > Kindly provide answers to the above questions and provide a proper > source for this mail before one can take it seriously. > > Thanks > > Javed > > On Mon, Apr 13, 2009 at 10:25 AM, Mujahid Haq wrote: > >> The True Face of Ulemas and Maolvis: >> >> Today, i am writing on very sensitive topic based on practical experience. i don't know from where to start this topics & whether it is safe to discuss here about a topic which may prove to be a very contraversing topic for readers, especially for my Muslim brothers who are reluctant to any reality which is in opposite direction to their belief. First of all i would like to say i'm a punjabi/urdu speaking person and English is not my mother tongue so kindly ignore my spelling or grammar or idiomatic mistakes. Now let me come to the topic. >> We people follow our religious leaders blindly without exploring their characters and morals. [by religious leaders i didn't mean the pious saints and prophets]. I have a relative who is much older than me but we are like friends because of similarity in our thinking. He was a very pious person and was a fan of Sadat Hasan Manto, a bold and dauntless writer of India-Pakistan. He read Manto critically and what he wrote in his works he decided to judge it's reality in his present situation. He was infect doing research on prostitutes and what force them to do such a vulgar job. Once he told me that once upon a time he went with his friend (I) to Qari Sakhi Muhammad Sealwi, a famous religious scholar of Punjab, Pakistan. [Literary, 'Qari' means one who recites >> Quran] >> >> Their 'I' introduced him with Qari. After a brief introduction from both sides their 'ceremony' started and a 'twayef' (prostitute dancer) entered in the room and Qari stand up from the sofa and hug the lady and they both start dancing.[don't think they already know each other both were strangers for each other; infect she was booked for few hours for Qari and his guests]. He was shocked to see a molvi dancing and kissing and hugging a lady. Qari invited his quests to accompany him on which 'I' joined him but he remained seated but keep laughing since it was his first experience to see a molvi dancing……. This is incident of 1990's. One more thing which I would like to say that Qari was a property dealer in religion's cloak. He formed several madrasas (schools) in different locations of Punjab and especially in Lahore. Most of his madrasas are for female students and were upto 10th grade. Where only girls from poor families study. All beautifully >> girls of his schools were 'enjoyed' by him and his ally. He also used to supply girls to local bodies/ badmaash and political people. that Qari died in 2008 and is now revered here as a 'holy man'. >> I have my several cousins in European countires. One of my cousins is in Germany. On his arrival to lahore he told me that while he was in a bar dancing with his girl friend he saw Maulana Fazul-al- Rehman, a religious and political leader of Paksitan, dancing in the club in full 'masti'. He was very surprised to see him but I was much surprised when I heared that. >> I know a trust worthy person 'X' who went to Saudia Arab with his colony-fellows for earning in 1985's. Their they were employed in an a construction firm located in Mecca. The 2 men from them were 'pakay zaani' (playboys). After spending few days in Mecca they started searching for a brothel. One day, they reached a brothel, located in a VIP's colony in a palace-like double story house, with a third person (which was older-settled in Saudia than the two). When they reached their, they saw a palace in the neighbor of that brothel. Out side the palace policemen and guards were on duty and to see them those 'two' start trembling while the third remained cool. They were further shocked when they read on the name plate of palace that it belong to Imam-e-Kaaba, the most respected and 'pious' personality of Muslim world. They decided to return since they thought the third person is fooling with them. The third one compel them to enter the >> brothel and say don't afraid go inside their every thing will be ok etc etc. but they didn't agree. Then the third one called (awaz lagana) in the brothel and a lady (nayeka, manager of that brothel) appeared in the teris/ balcony. The third one said to him your guest are afraid of your neighbour and have give-up the idea to stay here…. Then they both start laughing while that two remain still like idols. Then that lady welcomed her guests warmly and succeeded in overcoming their fear. At last they entered. On reaching inside the lady and third person start laughing to their will. The lady told them, don't afraid of that police since it was for your protection (then she laugh) and neither afraid of Imam(-e-Kaba) since he is over foremost 'gahak' (one who went to shop). When ever I had 'naya maal' (i.e., new girls) he is first to enjoy them……." The 'two' were so shocked that they can't utter a single world. Then they were provided by the lady a >> little refreshment and then their 'work' start……. >> Here I remember poet Iqbal's verse: >> Dayhati ho k shehri ho Musalman hai saada >> Manind-e-butaan pujtay hain Kabay k Brehman >> [whether a Muslim is of city or village he is simple(i.e., Easy to be deceived). They worship the "Brahmins of Kaba" like idols (without looking at their characters etc)] >> The same 'X' went to Pakistan after ending his job in Saudia started investing his money in various works. At one time he bought few rickshaws (3 wheel vehicle used as taxi) and appointed drivers. The drivers took up his rickshaws in early morning and roam in the city in search for passengers and return the home in night where they give their earning to the owner 'X' from which he gave them their payment. This was their daily routine. One of these (let 'R') drivers' earning was always greater than the others and he was always last one to come; sometime he came in midnight. The 'X' keeps an eye on his rickshaws, as other owners do, that whether his drivers are doing the job honestly or not. Once he was sitting at a chok (round about) with other owners counting the 'phairas' (routes) of his rickshaws.. He saw his rickshaw ( 'R') stopped near a big black luxury car/cruiser. From the rickshaw a well-dressed girl appears and >> entered in the car. When the car passed near the chok he looked inside; it was being drived by Allama Sajid Nakwi, a religious scholar of Shia'muslims and a leader of a religious party. He was little bit confused and think it might happen that he couldn't see the person rightly and that person resembles with Sajid but not the Sajid himself. In evening, when all rickshaws came he enquired 'R' about that incident. He said if he is not wrong than that person in car was Sajid Nakwi? Driver was surprised and replied 'yes'. He admitted that without any hesitation and reluctance because 'X' has very brotherly attitude with drivers. Then he opened the whole story. He told he is supplying 'butterflies' (i.e., girls) to Ulemas and local bodies which include Sajid Nakwi, Tahir-ul-Qadri, Qari Sakhi Mohammad, Al-Haaj Sheikh Rohil Asghar etc. for which he got very sufficient earning. He said he earn much large money than he provide to him in the end of day. Then he >> offered him to be a part of his net work which he refused. The story has a disastrous effect on 'X'. He asked 'R' "tu kisi din mujay phanswaye ga"(you will create a problem for me in future). On which 'R' replied, "aap to pehlay hi phansay huay hain..kabhi thanay main ja kar is rikshay ki report to daikhain, isay darjanoon dafa police nay pakrra hai magar isko churranay walay be 'wohi' hain" (you are already in problem. Your this rickshaw is caught several time by police of different stations but always 'they' themselves saved it etc). >> Next day he went to local police station and show his rickshaw's number their and inquire about it. The police man revealed that we several time caught this rikshaw of this number for illegal works but whenever we took it to our station the very movement we are rang up by 'respected personalities''s calls so we had to leave it without further investigation etc. This confirmed 'R''s story. >> Latter, 'X' sold his all rickshaws and free all drivers and start investing in properties. >> Few days latter while he was in his home some one knocked at his door. He opened the door and was surprised to see Sajid Nakwi standing their. This shocked him very much. They shake hands and Sajid took him to his car. In his car he saw Tahir-ul-Qadri, the religious scholar of Sunni'muslims and now know as Sheikh-ul-Islam[the greatest leader of muslims]. Sajid was informed by 'R' that 'X' is well known of their 'work'. So he came to pressurize him that if he disclosed anything he will create 'problem' for himself and his family. Sajid start discussion in friendly environment and ended in harsh words. When he ended, Tahir said, "Sahih tarhaan samja dea hai na?"(did you convince him rightly) and he replied "bilkul"(surley).and then they depart. >> Here I'll quote a verse of Bulleh Shah >> "Bahroon saaf hoyoon ke hunda jay diloon na gaye palitee” >> (physically you appear clean and from inside you are dirty) >> I have these stories in my hearts from several years. One day I've to die and I don't want to take these 'heavy stones' with me so I decided to disclose it to you so that you could see we can't judge a personality from his physical look or worldly reputation since those who look physically pious are much vulgar than a prostitute! >> >> Anonymous >> >> >> >> _________________________________________ >> reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. >> Critiques & Collaborations >> To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with subscribe in the subject header. >> To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list >> List archive: >> > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with subscribe in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> From pawan.durani at gmail.com Tue Apr 14 08:27:36 2009 From: pawan.durani at gmail.com (Pawan Durani) Date: Tue, 14 Apr 2009 08:27:36 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] The Goddess Hingala Of Baluchistan Message-ID: <6b79f1a70904131957g4eb26b5xe37e6bb6d6bae789@mail.gmail.com> *The Goddess Hingala Of **Baluchistan*** *By Sanjay Godbole* “Baluchistan “ is a State in Pakistan, having a fairly vast expanse. Hingola is an ancient river, which traverses across the terrains of Baluchistan. A mountain named ‘Khirdhar’ is situated at the banks of river Hingol. At the extreme end portion of this mountain, which is popularly known as *Kanraj*, there is an ancient cave known as ‘*Hingalaj*’. This place is situated in *Tehsil Lyari *of Baluchistan and is, since ancient times, reckoned as the largest and the most famous place of Worship of the Goddess Hingla in the Indian Sub-continent. The “Hingalaj” cave is located at a distance of 250 kilometers from “Karachi” on Karachi-Quetta highway. On the eastern side, is situated a town called Lyari. Next to Lyari, not very far, is located a military base of Baluchistan. One has to cross two rivers named Aghor and Gungi, to arrive at Ashapura Sarai hermitage’ charitable rest house for a camping halt where the Hingalaj cave is situated in the near vicinity. At this location, there are some old temples of worshiping such as Lord Ganesha, remains like Goddess mother Kali, Guru Gorakhnath, Brahmkunda, Ram Zarokha, Anil Kund and holy place of Gruha of Goddess Devi. During the Treta-Yuga epoch or era (according to Hindu mythology there are 4 yugas (Eras) Satyayug *Dwaparyug,* Treta-Yuga and *Kalki*-*Yug* .When * Parshuram* incarnated, *Dadhichi* the Famous ascetic sage had penned a predictive story. King *Vichatar*, a descendent of a Tartar *Mangol*Dynasty, ruled this province. He had two sons, named “Hingol” and “Sunder” * Sunder* brutally oppressed the populace. The harassed public, propitiated Lord Shiva, and the Lord Ganesha (Son of Shiva). Lord Ganesha killed Sunder. Later on, Sunder’s brother, Hingol, who had received boons, which ensured that he (Hingol) would not meet death by any weapon whatsoever, in any of the three lokas (worlds)' as per Hindu mythological concept three worlds exist worlds *Swarg, Mrityu. Pataal Hingol*, all the same, would not remain immune to death. Hingol soon became insolent and opressed his subjects. He also added new territories to his Kingdom. He, thereafter, suo moto, assumed the title as Hingol Dev (God Hingol). Ultimately, the people as a resultant reaction, worshipped “Goddess Shakti”. The Goddess killed Hingol in a cave at a place known as “*Satdeep*” in, what is known as ‘Baluchistan’today. Hingol, just before meeting his death, requested and prayed to Goddess Shakti, that he be identified and be synonymous with his name. The place, thenceforth, was known as “*Hingol Tirth*”. When Alexander the great, invaded “Sistan” now called “Baluchistan” presently, in the year 325 B.C., the Greek forces were camping at the banks of river “Hingol”. Sikandar waged a war with the King of “Balikot”. Some devotees of Goddess Hingla were there, to worship the Goddess Hingla and they were all safe. Emperor “Vikramaditya” at the time of Vanquishing India, visited this place as a devotee. King, Todarmal, contemporary of Emperor “Akbar” had also visited this place as a devotee. So also did many Rajput nobles, and personalities such as Biharimal, Madhusingh, & Raja Jagtatsingh visit the place. *Dada Mek-han*, the famous saint of Gujrat, came all the way from Gujarat, to visit and have glimpses of this holy place. Those devo-tees, visiting this place Hingalag are addressed as ‘Kapdis’. The pilgrims, after completion of their pilgrimage, sport a string, made out of “Thumra”, a variety of stone, mined from “Thatta” in Sindh. Prior to the partition of British India, in 1947, many devotees, especially from “Gujarat” and “Rajasthan” regularly visited “Baluchistan” to propitiate Goddess “Hingla”. Travelling was not that easy and comfortable at that time. The travellers had to undertake the tedious journey by braving the barriers such as rough and sloppery roads, jungles, mountains and crossing of challenging rivers. This tedious journey, at times had to be completed on the back of camels or in a Palanquin and would last for about a month or so. Shri Varsimal Devani, a Trust of Swami Narayan Temple , a religious cult popular as Vaishnava, residing on Mohamad Ali Jinnah Road in Karachi, is also a trusth of Hingla Mata Temple of Baluchasitan. He also arranges tours to Hingla Teerth. He very graciously made available to me some fine photographs of Hinglamata Mandir. According to Shri Devani, the Goddess Hingla Devi being famous all around, devotees from Africa and even Europe frequent this pilgrimage spot in multitudes. As per the legend, in Uttar Ramayana, Lord Rama visited Hingla Teerth in a sortie in his aircraft “*Pushpak*” and bathed in the water basin (Jal Kunda) here. One spot in this area is identified with Lord Rama’s sacred visit. Shri. Devani further added, that the temple of Hingla Mata is inside a cave and it admeasures 25 feet by 12 feet. There is no idol of the deity, but only the Astan (Seat) and the trident. A priest is duly appointed for carrying out daily rituals and general maintenance and house keeping. Each year a minimum of Twenty five thousand strong contigent of devotees visit there for pilgrimage. They offer flowers and coconuts to the Goddess Hingla. Some offer a cloth piece suitable for Blouse, making such an offer is considered to be auspicious. Some offer “Saubhagya Lenis” and even silver canopies Umbrellas i.e. according to Hindu belief, a married lady is considered to be fortunate, if she passes away prior to her husband. Since dry fruits are available in abundance in Baluchistan, these are offered to the deity and are distributed to the visitors as blessings of the deity. Devani said that the members of “Zigri”, a Baluch tribe reside in this area. They also worship the deity and take a vow. When their vows are fulfilled these “Zigri Baloch come to the spot and offer Mithi roti (Sweetened Bread). All the members of their family gather on such an occasion. They address Hinglamata as “Nanima” . (Nani means mother’s mother ). All the security personnel of this temple are Baloch. This was specifically mentioned by Shri. Varsimal Devani. As per the legend described in “Shiva-Purana” Sati’s main mortal remains fell over this part of the land. Sati was the daughter of “King Daksha” and wife of Lord Shiva who preferred to go “Sati”. (Sati according to orthodox Hindu beliefs, a married woman after the death of her husband should immolate herself on the pyre of her husband , this it is claimed is necessary for her salvage in future births) . Hence this place assumed importance in the specified holy places of the Goddess. But exactly like the “Sharada” temple in Kashmir, this place Hingla Teerth is now in Pakistan. Hence we (Indians) are deprived of an easy access do this place. **(The author is a noted Archeologist, a linguist and expert on the history of South-West Asia)* ** *Source: Kashmir Sentinel* From anansi1 at earthlink.net Tue Apr 14 09:12:01 2009 From: anansi1 at earthlink.net (Paul D. Miller) Date: Mon, 13 Apr 2009 23:42:01 -0400 (GMT-04:00) Subject: [Reader-list] Political Islam: Somalia - Pirates vs Politics Message-ID: <12824778.1239680522252.JavaMail.root@mswamui-valley.atl.sa.earthlink.net> I just thought I'd pass this along Paul You are being lied to about pirates Some are clearly just gangsters. But others are trying to stop illegal dumping and trawling by Johann Hari Monday, 5 January 2009 Independent [UK] http://www.independent.co.uk/opinion/commentators/johann-hari/johann-hari-you-are-being-lied-to-about-pirates-1225817.html Who imagined that in 2009, the world's governments would be declaring a new War on Pirates? As you read this, the British Royal Navy - backed by the ships of more than two dozen nations, from the US to China - is sailing into Somalian waters to take on men we still picture as parrot-on-the-shoulder pantomime villains. They will soon be fighting Somalian ships and even chasing the pirates onto land, into one of the most broken countries on earth. But behind the arrr-me-hearties oddness of this tale, there is an untold scandal. The people our governments are labelling as "one of the great menaces of our times" have an extraordinary story to tell - and some justice on their side. Pirates have never been quite who we think they are. In the "golden age of piracy" - from 1650 to 1730 - the idea of the pirate as the senseless, savage Bluebeard that lingers today was created by the British government in a great propaganda heave. Many ordinary people believed it was false: pirates were often saved from the gallows by supportive crowds. Why? What did they see that we can't? In his book Villains Of All Nations, the historian Marcus Rediker pores through the evidence. If you became a merchant or navy sailor then - plucked from the docks of London's East End, young and hungry - you ended up in a floating wooden Hell. You worked all hours on a cramped, half-starved ship, and if you slacked off, the all-powerful captain would whip you with the Cat O' Nine Tails. If you slacked often, you could be thrown overboard. And at the end of months or years of this, you were often cheated of your wages. Pirates were the first people to rebel against this world. They mutinied - and created a different way of working on the seas. Once they had a ship, the pirates elected their captains, and made all their decisions collectively, without torture. They shared their bounty out in what Rediker calls "one of the most egalitarian plans for the disposition of resources to be found anywhere in the eighteenth century". They even took in escaped African slaves and lived with them as equals. The pirates showed "quite clearly - and subversively - that ships did not have to be run in the brutal and oppressive ways of the merchant service and the Royal Navy." This is why they were romantic heroes, despite being unproductive thieves. The words of one pirate from that lost age, a young British man called William Scott, should echo into this new age of piracy. Just before he was hanged in Charleston, South Carolina, he said: "What I did was to keep me from perishing. I was forced to go a-pirateing to live." In 1991, the government of Somalia collapsed. Its nine million people have been teetering on starvation ever since - and the ugliest forces in the Western world have seen this as a great opportunity to steal the country's food supply and dump our nuclear waste in their seas. Yes: nuclear waste. As soon as the government was gone, mysterious European ships started appearing off the coast of Somalia, dumping vast barrels into the ocean. The coastal population began to sicken. At first they suffered strange rashes, nausea and malformed babies. Then, after the 2005 tsunami, hundreds of the dumped and leaking barrels washed up on shore. People began to suffer from radiation sickness, and more than 300 died. Ahmedou Ould-Abdallah, the UN envoy to Somalia, tells me: "Somebody is dumping nuclear material here. There is also lead, and heavy metals such as cadmium and mercury - you name it." Much of it can be traced back to European hospitals and factories, who seem to be passing it on to the Italian mafia to "dispose" of cheaply. When I asked Mr Ould-Abdallah what European governments were doing about it, he said with a sigh: "Nothing. There has been no clean-up, no compensation, and no prevention." At the same time, other European ships have been looting Somalia's seas of their greatest resource: seafood. We have destroyed our own fish stocks by overexploitation - and now we have moved on to theirs. More than $300m-worth of tuna, shrimp, and lobster are being stolen every year by illegal trawlers. The local fishermen are now starving. Mohammed Hussein, a fisherman in the town of Marka 100km south of Mogadishu, told Reuters: "If nothing is done, there soon won't be much fish left in our coastal waters." This is the context in which the "pirates" have emerged. Somalian fishermen took speedboats to try to dissuade the dumpers and trawlers, or at least levy a "tax" on them. They call themselves the Volunteer Coastguard of Somalia - and ordinary Somalis agree. The independent Somalian news site WardheerNews found 70 per cent "strongly supported the piracy as a form of national defence". No, this doesn't make hostage-taking justifiable, and yes, some are clearly just gangsters - especially those who have held up World Food Programme supplies. But in a telephone interview, one of the pirate leaders, Sugule Ali: "We don't consider ourselves sea bandits. We consider sea bandits [to be] those who illegally fish and dump in our seas." William Scott would understand. Did we expect starving Somalians to stand passively on their beaches, paddling in our toxic waste, and watch us snatch their fish to eat in restaurants in London and Paris and Rome? We won't act on those crimes - the only sane solution to this problem - but when some of the fishermen responded by disrupting the transit-corridor for 20 per cent of the world's oil supply, we swiftly send in the gunboats. The story of the 2009 war on piracy was best summarised by another pirate, who lived and died in the fourth century BC. He was captured and brought to Alexander the Great, who demanded to know "what he meant by keeping possession of the sea." The pirate smiled, and responded: "What you mean by seizing the whole earth; but because I do it with a petty ship, I am called a robber, while you, who do it with a great fleet, are called emperor." Once again, our great imperial fleets sail - but who is the robber? From turbulence at turbulence.org Mon Apr 13 07:49:27 2009 From: turbulence at turbulence.org (Turbulence) Date: Sun, 12 Apr 2009 22:19:27 -0400 Subject: [Reader-list] [Announcements] Turbulence Artists' Studio: "Data_Sea" by Michael Takeo Magruder Message-ID: <001b01c9bbde$47a85dc0$d6f91940$@org> Turbulence Artists' Studios: “Data_Sea” by Michael Takeo Magruder, with Drew Baker and David Steele http://turbulence.org/studios/takeo/ and at Thinktank Planetarium and Futures Gallery (Birmingham, UK) http://www.thinktank.ac/ The televised broadcast of the Berlin Olympics in 1936 was humanity’s first media transmission powerful enough to pass through Earth’s ionosphere and travel into deep space. From that point in time our signals have radiated into the universe, creating an ever-expanding globe referred to as Earth’s Radiosphere. In the 73 years since that defining moment, our communications have reached nearly two thousand other known star systems. “Data_Sea” is a real-time virtual environment based upon this relationship between broadcast media and astronomy. The core geometry of the artwork is directly derived from the actual positions of all catalogued star systems residing within the Radiosphere. Obtained from current astronomical databases such as the Hipparcos star catalogue, these scientific measurements have been translated into a three-dimensional structure constructed in VRML (Virtual Reality Modelling Language). Each star system’s basic properties affect its aesthetic manifestation within the virtual realm. Star type is represented by shape, with normal stars appearing as full spheres, ‘failed’ stars (brown dwarfs) as incomplete spheres and ‘dead’ stars (white dwarfs) as compressed crosses. The stellar nodes are connected to a central spherical body (representing our solar system) by line structures that are coloured according to spectral class of the individual stars. Systems that are known to contain exoplanets are surrounded by concentric ring structures. Live media from the BBC world news service is streamed into the environment. The virtual elements are textured with images from today’s events, while layers of live audiocasts are blended into a persistent soundscape. These mediated reflections of the present are in constant flux, forever shifting as they drift into an endless sea of virtual space. “Data_Sea” is a Thinktank production for the International Year of Astronomy 2009. The project was made possible with funds from Arts Council England and generous support from King’s Visualisation Lab, Centre for Computing in the Humanities, King’s College London and ParallelGraphics. BIOGRAPHY Michael Takeo Magruder is an artist and researcher in King’s Visualisation Lab, King's College London. His work uses emerging technologies, including high-performance computing, mobile devices and virtual environments, blending Information Age technologies with modernist aesthetics to explore the formal structures and conceptual paradigms of the networked, digital world. His work has been showcased in over 200 exhibitions in 30 countries, including the Courtauld Institute of Art, London, EAST International 2005, Georges Pompidou Center, Tokyo Metropolitan Museum of Photography and Trans-Media-Akademie Hellerau. His work also regularly appears in international New Media festivals such as Cybersonica, CYNETart, FILE, Filmwinter, Rencontres Internationales, SeNef, Siggraph, Split, VAD and WRO. His artistic practice has been funded by the Esmée Fairbairn Foundation, the Andy Warhol Foundation for the Visual Arts, Arts Council England, The National Endowment for the Arts, USA and public galleries in the UK and abroad, as well as by commissions from leading Internet Art portals Turbulence.org and Soundtoys.net. For more Turbulence Artists’ Studios please visit http://turbulence.org/studios Jo-Anne Green, Co-Director New Radio and Performing Arts, Inc.: http://new-radio.org New York: 917.548.7780 • Boston: 617.522.3856 Turbulence: http://turbulence.org Networked_Performance Blog: http://turbulence.org/blog Networked_Music_Review: http://turbulence.org/networked_music_review Upgrade! Boston: http://turbulence.org/upgrade_boston New American Radio: http://somewhere.org _______________________________________________ announcements mailing list announcements at sarai.net https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/announcements From mardemujahid46 at yahoo.com Tue Apr 14 11:26:29 2009 From: mardemujahid46 at yahoo.com (Mujahid Haq) Date: Mon, 13 Apr 2009 22:56:29 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Reader-list] The True Face of Ulemas and Maolvis ("Anonymous") Message-ID: <845905.37094.qm@web46202.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> Dear friends.                i wrote 'anonymous' with my post becoz i don't want my name or title to be disclosed since "they" are very powerful personalities of my country which may cause problem for me. i don't want to die in young age. In short i'm, the post-starter, that is the 'Anonymous'.                someone of u have demanded for proves. sir what type of proofs u want? should i disclose the names of all the men between me and that 'stories'? if yes, then sorry i can't do this, at any cost.                vivek ji appear to be very mature person here. his reply is very 'honslaafza' for me. you remind me of Sadat Hasan Manto.. Once he was accused of "spreading vulgarity"etc. He replied, "society is vulgar, i'm just write on it"               by the way if any one of you want to go in depth he can mail me. by the way whatever i wrote in my post was 101% true to my research and believe. Thankyou. M M From comradesaad at gmail.com Tue Apr 14 11:30:17 2009 From: comradesaad at gmail.com (S J) Date: Tue, 14 Apr 2009 11:00:17 +0500 Subject: [Reader-list] The True Face of Ulemas and Maolvis (Saad) Message-ID: <2ce11dd30904132300kef94ed8gf873d1ae084dc54d@mail.gmail.com> Dear Marde-e! your simplicity and humbleness is the greatest prove of what you wrote. Here i'll quote Ibn-e-Insha's humorous maxim: yeh wo log hain, "jinki dunya be chuust rehti hai aur aakhrat be durusat rehti hai". Saad -- Live And Let Live! From c.anupam at gmail.com Tue Apr 14 11:41:16 2009 From: c.anupam at gmail.com (anupam chakravartty) Date: Tue, 14 Apr 2009 11:41:16 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] The Goddess Hingala Of Baluchistan In-Reply-To: <6b79f1a70904131957g4eb26b5xe37e6bb6d6bae789@mail.gmail.com> References: <6b79f1a70904131957g4eb26b5xe37e6bb6d6bae789@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <341380d00904132311v54a58467y6d4d02b19829ac97@mail.gmail.com> dear pawan, A very interesting and informative story there. regards, anupam On 4/14/09, Pawan Durani wrote: > > *The Goddess Hingala Of **Baluchistan*** > > *By Sanjay Godbole* > > > > “Baluchistan “ is a State in Pakistan, having a fairly vast expanse. > Hingola > is an ancient river, which traverses across the terrains of Baluchistan. A > mountain named ‘Khirdhar’ is situated at the banks of river Hingol. At the > extreme end portion of this mountain, which is popularly known as *Kanraj*, > there is an ancient cave known as ‘*Hingalaj*’. This place is situated > in *Tehsil > Lyari *of Baluchistan and is, since ancient times, reckoned as the largest > and the most famous place of Worship of the Goddess Hingla in the Indian > Sub-continent. The “Hingalaj” cave is located at a distance of 250 > kilometers from “Karachi” on Karachi-Quetta highway. On the eastern side, > is situated a town called Lyari. Next to Lyari, not very far, is located a > military base of Baluchistan. One has to cross two rivers named Aghor and > Gungi, to arrive at Ashapura Sarai hermitage’ charitable rest house for a > camping halt where the Hingalaj cave is situated in the near vicinity. > > At this location, there are some old temples of worshiping such as Lord > Ganesha, remains like Goddess mother Kali, Guru Gorakhnath, Brahmkunda, Ram > Zarokha, Anil Kund and holy place of Gruha of Goddess Devi. > > During the Treta-Yuga epoch or era (according to Hindu mythology there are > 4 > yugas (Eras) Satyayug *Dwaparyug,* Treta-Yuga and *Kalki*-*Yug* .When * > Parshuram* incarnated, *Dadhichi* the Famous ascetic sage had penned a > predictive story. King *Vichatar*, a descendent of a Tartar > *Mangol*Dynasty, ruled this province. He had two sons, named “Hingol” > and “Sunder” > * Sunder* brutally oppressed the populace. The harassed public, propitiated > Lord Shiva, and the Lord Ganesha (Son of Shiva). Lord Ganesha killed > Sunder. > > Later on, Sunder’s brother, Hingol, who had received boons, which ensured > that he (Hingol) would not meet death by any weapon whatsoever, in any of > the three lokas (worlds)' as per Hindu mythological concept three worlds > exist worlds *Swarg, Mrityu. Pataal Hingol*, all the same, would not remain > immune to death. Hingol soon became insolent and opressed his subjects. He > also added new territories to his Kingdom. He, thereafter, suo moto, > assumed > the title as Hingol Dev (God Hingol). Ultimately, the people as a resultant > reaction, worshipped “Goddess Shakti”. > > The Goddess killed Hingol in a cave at a place known as “*Satdeep*” in, > what > is known as ‘Baluchistan’today. Hingol, just before meeting his death, > requested and prayed to Goddess Shakti, that he be identified and be > synonymous with his name. The place, thenceforth, was known as “*Hingol > Tirth*”. > > When Alexander the great, invaded “Sistan” now called “Baluchistan” > presently, in the year 325 B.C., the Greek forces were camping at the banks > of river “Hingol”. Sikandar waged a war with the King of “Balikot”. Some > devotees of Goddess Hingla were there, to worship the Goddess Hingla and > they were all safe. > > Emperor “Vikramaditya” at the time of Vanquishing India, visited this place > as a devotee. King, Todarmal, contemporary of Emperor “Akbar” had also > visited this place as a devotee. So also did many Rajput nobles, and > personalities such as Biharimal, Madhusingh, & Raja Jagtatsingh visit the > place. > > *Dada Mek-han*, the famous saint of Gujrat, came all the way from Gujarat, > to visit and have glimpses of this holy place. Those devo-tees, visiting > this place Hingalag are addressed as ‘Kapdis’. The pilgrims, after > completion of their pilgrimage, sport a string, made out of “Thumra”, a > variety of stone, mined from “Thatta” in Sindh. > > Prior to the partition of British India, in 1947, many devotees, especially > from “Gujarat” and “Rajasthan” regularly visited “Baluchistan” to > propitiate > Goddess “Hingla”. Travelling was not that easy and comfortable at that > time. > The travellers had to undertake the tedious journey by braving the barriers > such as rough and sloppery roads, jungles, mountains and crossing of > challenging rivers. This tedious journey, at times had to be completed on > the back of camels or in a Palanquin and would last for about a month or > so. > > Shri Varsimal Devani, a Trust of Swami Narayan Temple , a religious cult > popular as Vaishnava, residing on Mohamad Ali Jinnah Road in Karachi, is > also a trusth of Hingla Mata Temple of Baluchasitan. He also arranges tours > to Hingla Teerth. He very graciously made available to me some fine > photographs of Hinglamata Mandir. > > According to Shri Devani, the Goddess Hingla Devi being famous all around, > devotees from Africa and even Europe frequent this pilgrimage spot in > multitudes. > > As per the legend, in Uttar Ramayana, Lord Rama visited Hingla Teerth in a > sortie in his aircraft “*Pushpak*” and bathed in the water basin (Jal > Kunda) > here. One spot in this area is identified with Lord Rama’s sacred visit. > > Shri. Devani further added, that the temple of Hingla Mata is inside a cave > and it admeasures 25 feet by 12 feet. There is no idol of the deity, but > only the Astan (Seat) and the trident. > > A priest is duly appointed for carrying out daily rituals and general > maintenance and house keeping. > > Each year a minimum of Twenty five thousand strong contigent of devotees > visit there for pilgrimage. They offer flowers and coconuts to the Goddess > Hingla. Some offer a cloth piece suitable for Blouse, making such an offer > is considered to be auspicious. Some offer “Saubhagya Lenis” and even > silver > canopies Umbrellas i.e. according to Hindu belief, a married lady is > considered to be fortunate, if she passes away prior to her husband. Since > dry fruits are available in abundance in Baluchistan, these are offered to > the deity and are distributed to the visitors as blessings of the deity. > > Devani said that the members of “Zigri”, a Baluch tribe reside in this > area. > They also worship the deity and take a vow. When their vows are fulfilled > these “Zigri Baloch come to the spot and offer Mithi roti (Sweetened > Bread). > All the members of their family gather on such an occasion. They address > Hinglamata as “Nanima” . (Nani means mother’s mother ). All the security > personnel of this temple are Baloch. This was specifically mentioned by > Shri. Varsimal Devani. > > As per the legend described in “Shiva-Purana” Sati’s main mortal remains > fell over this part of the land. Sati was the daughter of “King Daksha” and > wife of Lord Shiva who preferred to go “Sati”. (Sati according to orthodox > Hindu beliefs, a married woman after the death of her husband should > immolate herself on the pyre of her husband , this it is claimed is > necessary for her salvage in future births) . Hence this place assumed > importance in the specified holy places of the Goddess. > > But exactly like the “Sharada” temple in Kashmir, this place Hingla Teerth > is now in Pakistan. Hence we (Indians) are deprived of an easy access do > this place. > **(The author is a noted Archeologist, a linguist and expert on the history > of South-West Asia)* > ** > *Source: Kashmir Sentinel* > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > subscribe in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> From kiccovich at yahoo.com Tue Apr 14 11:47:34 2009 From: kiccovich at yahoo.com (francesca recchia) Date: Mon, 13 Apr 2009 23:17:34 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Reader-list] The Goddess Hingala Of Baluchistan Message-ID: <415050.49766.qm@web31705.mail.mud.yahoo.com> thanks for sharing this! francesca recchia kiccovich at yahoo.com it +39 338 166 3648 iq +964 (0) 750 7085 681 http://www.veleno.tv/bollettini/ --- On Tue, 14/4/09, anupam chakravartty wrote: From: anupam chakravartty Subject: Re: [Reader-list] The Goddess Hingala Of Baluchistan To: "sarai list" Date: Tuesday, 14 April, 2009, 8:11 AM dear pawan, A very interesting and informative story there. regards, anupam On 4/14/09, Pawan Durani wrote: > > *The Goddess Hingala Of **Baluchistan*** > > *By Sanjay Godbole* > > > > “Baluchistan “ is a State in Pakistan, having a fairly vast expanse. > Hingola > is an ancient river, which traverses across the terrains of Baluchistan. A > mountain named ‘Khirdhar’ is situated at the banks of river Hingol. At the > extreme end portion of this mountain, which is popularly known as *Kanraj*, > there is an ancient cave known as ‘*Hingalaj*’. This place is situated > in *Tehsil > Lyari *of Baluchistan and is, since ancient times, reckoned as the largest > and the most famous place of Worship of the Goddess Hingla in the Indian > Sub-continent. The “Hingalaj” cave is located at a distance of 250 > kilometers from “Karachi”  on Karachi-Quetta highway. On the eastern side, > is situated a town called Lyari. Next to Lyari, not very far, is located a > military base of Baluchistan. One has to cross two rivers named Aghor and > Gungi, to arrive at Ashapura Sarai hermitage’ charitable rest house for a > camping halt where the Hingalaj cave is situated in the near vicinity. > > At this location, there are some old temples of worshiping such as Lord > Ganesha, remains like Goddess mother Kali, Guru Gorakhnath, Brahmkunda, Ram > Zarokha, Anil Kund and holy place of Gruha of Goddess Devi. > > During the Treta-Yuga epoch or era (according to Hindu mythology there are > 4 > yugas (Eras) Satyayug *Dwaparyug,* Treta-Yuga and *Kalki*-*Yug* .When * > Parshuram* incarnated, *Dadhichi* the Famous ascetic sage had penned a > predictive story. King *Vichatar*, a descendent of a Tartar > *Mangol*Dynasty, ruled this province. He had two sons, named “Hingol” > and “Sunder” > * Sunder* brutally oppressed the populace. The harassed public, propitiated > Lord Shiva, and the Lord Ganesha (Son of Shiva). Lord Ganesha killed > Sunder. > > Later on, Sunder’s brother, Hingol, who had received boons, which ensured > that he (Hingol) would not meet death by any weapon whatsoever, in any of > the three lokas (worlds)' as per Hindu mythological concept three worlds > exist worlds *Swarg, Mrityu. Pataal Hingol*, all the same, would not remain > immune to death. Hingol soon became insolent and opressed his subjects. He > also added new territories to his Kingdom. He, thereafter, suo moto, > assumed > the title as Hingol Dev (God Hingol). Ultimately, the people as a resultant > reaction, worshipped “Goddess Shakti”. > > The Goddess killed Hingol in a cave at a place known as “*Satdeep*” in, > what > is known as ‘Baluchistan’today. Hingol, just before meeting his death, > requested and prayed to Goddess Shakti, that he be identified and be > synonymous with his name. The place, thenceforth, was known as “*Hingol > Tirth*”. > > When Alexander the great, invaded “Sistan” now called “Baluchistan” > presently, in the year 325 B.C., the Greek forces were camping at the banks > of river “Hingol”. Sikandar waged a war with the King of “Balikot”. Some > devotees of Goddess Hingla were there, to worship the Goddess Hingla and > they were all safe. > > Emperor “Vikramaditya” at the time of Vanquishing India, visited this place > as a devotee. King, Todarmal, contemporary of Emperor “Akbar” had also > visited this place as a devotee. So also did many Rajput nobles, and > personalities such as Biharimal, Madhusingh, & Raja Jagtatsingh visit the > place. > > *Dada Mek-han*, the famous saint of Gujrat, came all the way from Gujarat, > to visit and have glimpses of this holy place. Those devo-tees, visiting > this place Hingalag are addressed as ‘Kapdis’. The pilgrims, after > completion of their pilgrimage, sport a string, made out of “Thumra”, a > variety of stone, mined from “Thatta” in Sindh. > > Prior to the partition of British India, in 1947, many devotees, especially > from “Gujarat” and “Rajasthan” regularly visited “Baluchistan” to > propitiate > Goddess “Hingla”. Travelling was not that easy and comfortable at that > time. > The travellers had to undertake the tedious journey by braving the barriers > such as rough and sloppery roads, jungles, mountains and crossing of > challenging rivers. This tedious journey, at times had to be completed on > the back of camels or in a Palanquin and would last for about a month or > so. > > Shri Varsimal Devani, a Trust of Swami Narayan Temple , a religious cult > popular as Vaishnava, residing on Mohamad Ali Jinnah Road in Karachi, is > also a trusth of Hingla Mata Temple of Baluchasitan. He also arranges tours > to Hingla Teerth. He very graciously made available to me some fine > photographs of Hinglamata Mandir. > > According to Shri Devani, the Goddess Hingla Devi being famous all around, > devotees from Africa and even Europe frequent this pilgrimage spot in > multitudes. > > As per the legend, in Uttar Ramayana, Lord Rama visited Hingla Teerth in a > sortie in his aircraft “*Pushpak*” and bathed in the water basin (Jal > Kunda) > here. One spot in this area is identified with Lord Rama’s sacred visit. > > Shri. Devani further added, that the temple of Hingla Mata is inside a cave > and it admeasures 25 feet by 12 feet. There is no idol of the deity, but > only the Astan (Seat) and the trident. > > A priest is duly appointed for carrying out daily rituals and general > maintenance and house keeping. > > Each year a minimum of Twenty five thousand strong contigent of devotees > visit there for pilgrimage. They offer flowers and coconuts to the Goddess > Hingla. Some offer a cloth piece suitable for Blouse, making such an offer > is considered to be auspicious. Some offer “Saubhagya Lenis” and even > silver > canopies Umbrellas i.e. according to Hindu belief, a married lady is > considered to be fortunate, if she passes away prior to her husband. Since > dry fruits are available in abundance in Baluchistan, these are offered to > the deity and are distributed to the visitors as blessings of the deity. > > Devani said that the members of “Zigri”, a Baluch tribe reside in this > area. > They also worship the deity and take a vow. When their vows are fulfilled > these “Zigri Baloch come to the spot and offer Mithi roti (Sweetened > Bread). > All the members of their family gather on such an occasion. They address > Hinglamata as “Nanima” . (Nani means mother’s mother ). All the security > personnel of this temple are Baloch. This was specifically mentioned by > Shri. Varsimal Devani. > > As per the legend described in “Shiva-Purana” Sati’s main mortal remains > fell over this part of the land. Sati was the daughter of “King Daksha” and > wife of Lord Shiva who preferred to go “Sati”. (Sati according to orthodox > Hindu beliefs, a married woman after the death of her husband should > immolate herself on the pyre of her husband , this it is claimed is > necessary for her salvage in future births) . Hence this place assumed > importance in the specified holy places of the Goddess. > > But exactly like the “Sharada” temple in Kashmir, this place Hingla Teerth > is now in Pakistan. Hence we (Indians) are deprived of an easy access do > this place. > **(The author is a noted Archeologist, a linguist and expert on the history > of South-West Asia)* > ** > *Source: Kashmir Sentinel* > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > subscribe in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> _________________________________________ reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. Critiques & Collaborations To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with subscribe in the subject header. To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> From vivek at sarai.net Tue Apr 14 12:00:35 2009 From: vivek at sarai.net (Vivek Narayanan) Date: Tue, 14 Apr 2009 12:00:35 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] The True Face of Ulemas and Maolvis ("Anonymous") In-Reply-To: <845905.37094.qm@web46202.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> References: <845905.37094.qm@web46202.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <49E42D8B.9020300@sarai.net> Thank you, MM. I'd also like to make another point, though. All across contemporary South Asia, the public sphere seems to still be saturated with--and even sustained by-- a culture of flattery, hagiography, excessive praise for supposedly important figures. If you're not being compared to the sun and the moon and the himalayas, you're worthless. That is why, in this climate of perfect public figures, even mentioning minor sexual peccadiloes seems like such a taboo act. I think we need to move on from that. They are not kings and we are not courtiers. Cheers vivek Mujahid Haq wrote: > Dear friends. > i wrote 'anonymous' with my post becoz i don't want my name or title to be disclosed since "they" are very powerful personalities of my country which may cause problem for me. i don't want to die in young age. In short i'm, the post-starter, that is the 'Anonymous'. > someone of u have demanded for proves. sir what type of proofs u want? should i disclose the names of all the men between me and that 'stories'? if yes, then sorry i can't do this, at any cost. > vivek ji appear to be very mature person here. his reply is very 'honslaafza' for me. you remind me of Sadat Hasan Manto.. Once he was accused of "spreading vulgarity"etc. He replied, "society is vulgar, i'm just write on it" > by the way if any one of you want to go in depth he can mail me. by the way whatever i wrote in my post was 101% true to my research and believe. > Thankyou. > M M > > > > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with subscribe in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> From javedmasoo at gmail.com Tue Apr 14 12:19:03 2009 From: javedmasoo at gmail.com (M Javed) Date: Tue, 14 Apr 2009 12:19:03 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] The True Face of Ulemas and Maolvis ("Anonymous") In-Reply-To: <845905.37094.qm@web46202.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> References: <845905.37094.qm@web46202.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: Dear Mujahid I appreciate your being honest about your identity. (Vivek, I'm not perturbed by the "despotic image" of Islam, and I agree that such things are a norm among religious institutions/individuals). But my basic question is: why can't Mujahid reveal all this in Pakistan or Saudi Arabia itself. Can he write about this in Urdu press in Lahore (the way Manto tried to do). Yes the society is corrupt and vulgar, but show the mirror to them first. What would you achieve by announcing it on Sarai. Nevertheless, its good that you get more honsla (courage) by Vivek's mail. I hope you will be able to publish it soon in Urdu and Arabic for the concerned people (and still be able to survive). Javed On Tue, Apr 14, 2009 at 11:26 AM, Mujahid Haq wrote: > Dear friends. >                i wrote 'anonymous' with my post becoz i don't want my name or title to be disclosed since "they" are very powerful personalities of my country which may cause problem for me. i don't want to die in young age. In short i'm, the post-starter, that is the 'Anonymous'. >                someone of u have demanded for proves. sir what type of proofs u want? should i disclose the names of all the men between me and that 'stories'? if yes, then sorry i can't do this, at any cost. >                vivek ji appear to be very mature person here. his reply is very 'honslaafza' for me. you remind me of Sadat Hasan Manto.. Once he was accused of "spreading vulgarity"etc. He replied, "society is vulgar, i'm just write on it" >               by the way if any one of you want to go in depth he can mail me. by the way whatever i wrote in my post was 101% true to my research and believe. > Thankyou. > M M > > > > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with subscribe in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: From kmvenuannur at gmail.com Tue Apr 14 12:42:38 2009 From: kmvenuannur at gmail.com (Venugopalan K M) Date: Tue, 14 Apr 2009 12:42:38 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Ayodhya, a simple matter of adjudication and courts and judiciary has failed the nation. In-Reply-To: <61164a90904130350g277a507fiabe038b1721cc36a@mail.gmail.com> References: <61164a90904130350g277a507fiabe038b1721cc36a@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <1f9180970904140012wc8ada05j187ab09b32157be9@mail.gmail.com> What dispute? Who told you that Babrai Masjid belonged to Mr.Advani &Co? Who's he to be the (criminal )demolisher of the masid and the builder of ram temp le in the name of "all hindus" of India? Who told you that you and me should have any real stakes in the destruction of that humble masjid(which had to stop namaz owing to the handiwork of few communalists and certain secularists like Nehru, who just wanted to stop trouble)? Actually, a Malayali Nair( K.K.Nair) who had been the dist magistratre of Faizabad in 1948 and a sympathizer of the anti-national RSS and killers of M.K.Gandhi is believed to have conspired to smuggle idols of Ram,Seetha and Hanuman in the dead of a december night..precisely on Dec 22-23,though I have to check the exact date, and later claiming these idols as "swayam bhu"(originated divinely and without human agency)! Granted that you and me have the freedom to believe any trash as history. But authentic historical studies have shown that nowhere in Ayodhya, Ram Temples were existing even in the times of Thulasidas(16th century) who wrote Ramcharitmanas! Go with more and more of trash..plz don't try to impose on others in your service (though it is welcome, because it exposes rather than conceals your commitment to the politics of hatred)to the hidutwa bigots! Let the sense of refinement prevail on you thanks to your being a member of this discussion forum and to your willingness to communicate to instantly whatever you "think"! btw, thanks for providing the exact information on the measurement of the land which is pending to be handed over to ---------, because of "spineless judges" sitting there. Certainly it is not you or me who are the holders of stake,I think.. Nor is it the entire hindus of India... Who could it be then you are so passionately and so blindly taking wakalat for? Regards, Venu. On Mon, Apr 13, 2009 at 4:20 PM, Rajen Uppinangadi < rajen882uppinangadi at gmail.com> wrote: > The issue is simply the matter of adjudication of issue of ownership of > land > of admeasuring 42 feet by 65 feet, by the court of India, judges have > fudged > for decades as spineless individuals waiting for their promotion and made > this an emotive issue by the plitical parties for the vote banks. > > As to Advani and his rath yathra, it should be noted that rath yathra did > not start the communal riots, but stoppage of Rathyathra by lalu yadav for > vote gains of community in his winning combination of MY equation started > the riots, the system of governance did nothing to punish those indulgig in > riots but rewarded them with MLA and MP tickets, thus criminalisation > became > history of indian politics. > > What should have been disposed off as simple property suit, of a scheduled > property, of a dilapidated structure, became masjid without prayers, to > become birth point of Lord rama, as if all were the midwifes at the time.? > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > subscribe in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> -- http://venukm.blogspot.com/ From rajen882uppinangadi at gmail.com Tue Apr 14 13:40:01 2009 From: rajen882uppinangadi at gmail.com (Rajen Uppinangadi) Date: Tue, 14 Apr 2009 13:40:01 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Manmohan singh and elections.? Message-ID: <61164a90904140110i66f310ccxdd48146d4b1c4509@mail.gmail.com> Yes, Anupam, Let me agree to disagree with you, I may not know as much as you do on the Assam affairs, but like you I do not accuse anyone without any substance like you did for a political party and its leader.? I see and percieve and share my perceptions with you all, and that is Tarun Gogoi could not manage the simple majority with his party MLAs, he gave a smug smile with the adjustment of muslim MLAs, who are known supporters of immigrants How these immigrants are facilitated to vote is known to every one. Further, after 62 years of rule any party has now got to perform as the citizens are getting basics right, political awareness is good, so whether Coongress or any party, if they do not perform well in governance, such will be voted out. More over, the regional aspirations and citizens feeling neglected is the main cause of concern for the nation state, as Congress all these years wasted time in nesting itself with corruption and loot. The very theme of development, bijli sadak and pani did not come out of Congress manifesto, but from NDA. As to your knowledge of Assam, all I can say is it is prejudice that is ruling your posts. Regards. Rajen. From rajen882uppinangadi at gmail.com Tue Apr 14 13:47:59 2009 From: rajen882uppinangadi at gmail.com (Rajen Uppinangadi) Date: Tue, 14 Apr 2009 13:47:59 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] the religion and fake godmen, clergies. Message-ID: <61164a90904140117k7e452c61t2b2a4f285a868e6b@mail.gmail.com> In every faith, those who are in a position to preach are also humans with human fault lines, so you find the baba ram rahim, murdering and raping his devotees, well supported by political leaders for the votes he can deliver, having private army of over 500 people with arm license to give security to this godman, Sister Abhaya who got killed and thrown in well for having witnessed the sexcapades of nuns and the priest in a seminary, arch bishop writing a book about the human trais of using the trainee priests and nuns for the desires of the trainers in seminaries, jobless youth becoming priests and nuns to be evangelists to have a cushy life, all godmen roaming around in deluxe sedans.! From kmvenuannur at gmail.com Tue Apr 14 13:53:04 2009 From: kmvenuannur at gmail.com (Venugopalan K M) Date: Tue, 14 Apr 2009 13:53:04 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Ayodhya, a simple matter of adjudication and courts and judiciary has failed the nation. In-Reply-To: <61164a90904140056y69003ad4h390bdb395298a968@mail.gmail.com> References: <61164a90904130350g277a507fiabe038b1721cc36a@mail.gmail.com> <1f9180970904140012wc8ada05j187ab09b32157be9@mail.gmail.com> <61164a90904140056y69003ad4h390bdb395298a968@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <1f9180970904140123t66a3968cr297c45b5d6af41e2@mail.gmail.com> Thanks for your support to the idea of uniting the nation. However, I can't help reminding you that Hitler also wanted to "unite" by ridding of who didn't want to agree with his idea of unity.If you are an expert on this issue, please answer to the other ponts raided by me there. I have no dispute to your point that there might earlier have been dispute as well relating to the ownership of the land on which the masjid stood..but it doesn't invalidate my account of what happened since 1948,unless you specifically bring some contention. I only told that the masjis was having namaz till a few days consequent to the incident in which three idols were smuggled into the masjid by some anti-social elements and propagated the lie that these were "swayam bhu." And last but not least: - Where was "venom" in my post..whatever it is, I will tell you that I would rather, call a spade a spade, if you'd like it or not. Regards, Venu. On Tue, Apr 14, 2009 at 1:26 PM, Rajen Uppinangadi < rajen882uppinangadi at gmail.com> wrote: > Venu, > > so much of venom and poisonous outburst are not good for anyones > health.Your hate is just plain and visible in the post. > > In case your update is not helping you, the land dispute is much earlier > than 1948, it all started in 1873 for your information between two cousins > of the maharaja of that area, later, some others joned it, much later muslim > law board, all India Babri masjid committee etc were impleading for joining > in the suit matter. > > As far as Advani is concerned, it was vote gathering tool for him, this > issue, same as the gate unlocking by Rajiv Pheroz Khan, who used this to > appease sections of hindus.! It s no different with left and its goon cadres > who happily rape and kill people in any area where they are in groups to > take over the property of the tiller, so stop playing games of holier than > thou type of posts. > > Democratic governance of the nation is rule of laws without > discrimination and all political parties have failed miserably in this > aspect, only redeeming factor is BJP is trying to unite the hindu community > above the caste conundrums, you like it or not, while Congress divided the > sections of the society on castes, faith and regional dividers. > > Regards. > > Rajen. > > > On Tue, Apr 14, 2009 at 12:42 PM, Venugopalan K M wrote: > >> What dispute? Who told you that Babrai Masjid belonged to Mr.Advani &Co? >> Who's he to be the (criminal )demolisher of the masid and the builder of >> ram temp le in the name of "all hindus" of India? >> >> Who told you that you and me should have any real stakes in the >> destruction of that humble masjid(which had to stop namaz owing to the >> handiwork of few communalists and certain secularists like Nehru, who just >> wanted to stop trouble)? >> >> Actually, a Malayali Nair( K.K.Nair) who had been the dist magistratre of >> Faizabad in 1948 and a sympathizer of the anti-national RSS and killers of >> M.K.Gandhi is believed to have conspired to smuggle idols of Ram,Seetha and >> Hanuman in the dead of a december night..precisely on Dec 22-23,though I >> have to check the exact date, and later claiming these idols as "swayam >> bhu"(originated divinely and without human agency)! >> >> Granted that you and me have the freedom to believe any trash as history. >> But authentic historical studies have shown that nowhere in Ayodhya, Ram >> Temples were existing even in the times of Thulasidas(16th century) who >> wrote Ramcharitmanas! >> >> Go with more and more of trash..plz don't try to impose on others in your >> service (though it is welcome, because it exposes rather than conceals your >> commitment to the politics of hatred)to the hidutwa bigots! >> >> Let the sense of refinement prevail on you thanks to your being a member >> of this discussion forum and to your willingness to communicate to instantly >> whatever you "think"! >> btw, thanks for providing the exact information on the >> measurement of the land which is pending to be handed over to ---------, >> because of "spineless judges" sitting there. >> Certainly it is not you or me who are the holders of stake,I think.. >> Nor is it the entire hindus of India... >> Who could it be then you are so passionately and so blindly taking wakalat >> for? >> >> >> Regards, >> Venu. >> >> On Mon, Apr 13, 2009 at 4:20 PM, Rajen Uppinangadi < >> rajen882uppinangadi at gmail.com> wrote: >> >>> The issue is simply the matter of adjudication of issue of ownership of >>> land >>> of admeasuring 42 feet by 65 feet, by the court of India, judges have >>> fudged >>> for decades as spineless individuals waiting for their promotion and made >>> this an emotive issue by the plitical parties for the vote banks. >>> >>> As to Advani and his rath yathra, it should be noted that rath yathra did >>> not start the communal riots, but stoppage of Rathyathra by lalu yadav >>> for >>> vote gains of community in his winning combination of MY equation started >>> the riots, the system of governance did nothing to punish those indulgig >>> in >>> riots but rewarded them with MLA and MP tickets, thus criminalisation >>> became >>> history of indian politics. >>> >>> What should have been disposed off as simple property suit, of a >>> scheduled >>> property, of a dilapidated structure, became masjid without prayers, to >>> become birth point of Lord rama, as if all were the midwifes at the >>> time.? >>> _________________________________________ >>> reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. >>> Critiques & Collaborations >>> To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with >>> subscribe in the subject header. >>> To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list >>> List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> >> >> >> >> >> -- >> http://venukm.blogspot.com/ >> > > -- http://venukm.blogspot.com/ From kmvenuannur at gmail.com Tue Apr 14 13:55:27 2009 From: kmvenuannur at gmail.com (Venugopalan K M) Date: Tue, 14 Apr 2009 13:55:27 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Ayodhya, a simple matter of adjudication and courts and judiciary has failed the nation. In-Reply-To: <1f9180970904140123t66a3968cr297c45b5d6af41e2@mail.gmail.com> References: <61164a90904130350g277a507fiabe038b1721cc36a@mail.gmail.com> <1f9180970904140012wc8ada05j187ab09b32157be9@mail.gmail.com> <61164a90904140056y69003ad4h390bdb395298a968@mail.gmail.com> <1f9180970904140123t66a3968cr297c45b5d6af41e2@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <1f9180970904140125i70ca6c43v5bd37aca017f3273@mail.gmail.com> plz read the word "raided" in my earlier post as "raised"-sorry for the typo Venu.. On Tue, Apr 14, 2009 at 1:53 PM, Venugopalan K M wrote: > Thanks for your support to the idea of uniting the nation. > However, I can't help reminding you that Hitler also wanted to "unite" by > ridding of who didn't want to agree with his idea of unity.If you are an > expert on this issue, please answer to the other ponts raided by me there. > I have no dispute to your point that there might earlier have been dispute > as well relating to the ownership of the land on which the masjid stood..but > it doesn't invalidate my account of what happened since 1948,unless you > specifically bring some contention. I only told that the masjis was having > namaz till a few days consequent to the incident in which three idols were > smuggled into the masjid by some anti-social elements and propagated the lie > that these were "swayam bhu." > And last but not least: - > Where was "venom" in my post..whatever it is, I will tell you that I would > rather, call a spade a spade, if you'd like it or not. > Regards, > Venu. > > > > On Tue, Apr 14, 2009 at 1:26 PM, Rajen Uppinangadi < > rajen882uppinangadi at gmail.com> wrote: > >> Venu, >> >> so much of venom and poisonous outburst are not good for anyones >> health.Your hate is just plain and visible in the post. >> >> In case your update is not helping you, the land dispute is much earlier >> than 1948, it all started in 1873 for your information between two cousins >> of the maharaja of that area, later, some others joned it, much later muslim >> law board, all India Babri masjid committee etc were impleading for joining >> in the suit matter. >> >> As far as Advani is concerned, it was vote gathering tool for him, this >> issue, same as the gate unlocking by Rajiv Pheroz Khan, who used this to >> appease sections of hindus.! It s no different with left and its goon cadres >> who happily rape and kill people in any area where they are in groups to >> take over the property of the tiller, so stop playing games of holier than >> thou type of posts. >> >> Democratic governance of the nation is rule of laws without >> discrimination and all political parties have failed miserably in this >> aspect, only redeeming factor is BJP is trying to unite the hindu community >> above the caste conundrums, you like it or not, while Congress divided the >> sections of the society on castes, faith and regional dividers. >> >> Regards. >> >> Rajen. >> >> >> On Tue, Apr 14, 2009 at 12:42 PM, Venugopalan K M wrote: >> >>> What dispute? Who told you that Babrai Masjid belonged to Mr.Advani &Co? >>> Who's he to be the (criminal )demolisher of the masid and the builder of >>> ram temp le in the name of "all hindus" of India? >>> >>> Who told you that you and me should have any real stakes in the >>> destruction of that humble masjid(which had to stop namaz owing to the >>> handiwork of few communalists and certain secularists like Nehru, who just >>> wanted to stop trouble)? >>> >>> Actually, a Malayali Nair( K.K.Nair) who had been the dist magistratre of >>> Faizabad in 1948 and a sympathizer of the anti-national RSS and killers of >>> M.K.Gandhi is believed to have conspired to smuggle idols of Ram,Seetha and >>> Hanuman in the dead of a december night..precisely on Dec 22-23,though I >>> have to check the exact date, and later claiming these idols as "swayam >>> bhu"(originated divinely and without human agency)! >>> >>> Granted that you and me have the freedom to believe any trash as history. >>> But authentic historical studies have shown that nowhere in Ayodhya, Ram >>> Temples were existing even in the times of Thulasidas(16th century) who >>> wrote Ramcharitmanas! >>> >>> Go with more and more of trash..plz don't try to impose on others in your >>> service (though it is welcome, because it exposes rather than conceals your >>> commitment to the politics of hatred)to the hidutwa bigots! >>> >>> Let the sense of refinement prevail on you thanks to your being a >>> member of this discussion forum and to your willingness to communicate to >>> instantly whatever you "think"! >>> btw, thanks for providing the exact information on the >>> measurement of the land which is pending to be handed over to ---------, >>> because of "spineless judges" sitting there. >>> Certainly it is not you or me who are the holders of stake,I think.. >>> Nor is it the entire hindus of India... >>> Who could it be then you are so passionately and so blindly taking >>> wakalat for? >>> >>> >>> Regards, >>> Venu. >>> >>> On Mon, Apr 13, 2009 at 4:20 PM, Rajen Uppinangadi < >>> rajen882uppinangadi at gmail.com> wrote: >>> >>>> The issue is simply the matter of adjudication of issue of ownership of >>>> land >>>> of admeasuring 42 feet by 65 feet, by the court of India, judges have >>>> fudged >>>> for decades as spineless individuals waiting for their promotion and >>>> made >>>> this an emotive issue by the plitical parties for the vote banks. >>>> >>>> As to Advani and his rath yathra, it should be noted that rath yathra >>>> did >>>> not start the communal riots, but stoppage of Rathyathra by lalu yadav >>>> for >>>> vote gains of community in his winning combination of MY equation >>>> started >>>> the riots, the system of governance did nothing to punish those indulgig >>>> in >>>> riots but rewarded them with MLA and MP tickets, thus criminalisation >>>> became >>>> history of indian politics. >>>> >>>> What should have been disposed off as simple property suit, of a >>>> scheduled >>>> property, of a dilapidated structure, became masjid without prayers, to >>>> become birth point of Lord rama, as if all were the midwifes at the >>>> time.? >>>> _________________________________________ >>>> reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. >>>> Critiques & Collaborations >>>> To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with >>>> subscribe in the subject header. >>>> To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list >>>> List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> -- >>> http://venukm.blogspot.com/ >>> >> >> > > > -- > http://venukm.blogspot.com/ > -- http://venukm.blogspot.com/ From pranesh at cis-india.org Tue Apr 14 13:56:30 2009 From: pranesh at cis-india.org (Pranesh Prakash) Date: Tue, 14 Apr 2009 13:56:30 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] CIS Lecture Series | Talk on Internet, Transparency and Politics | April 15, 2009 Message-ID: <4785f1e20904140126nbd1f26eob55cebc0933f5b1@mail.gmail.com> Dear all, The Centre for Internet and Society cordially invites you to a talk on "Internet, Transparency and Politics" by Barun Mitra on Wednesday, April 15, 2009 at 17:00. Description: The 2009 general elections in India have been preceded by various initiatives that seek to provide information to the voters about candidates contesting the elections. The aim of providing this information is to help voters to make 'informed choices' when casting their votes. This talk is being organized in the context of the research that CIS-RAW fellow Zainab Bawa is carrying out on "Internet, Transparency and Politics". Why has the Internet become an important space for publishing information that is streamlined for facilitating interaction between citizens and the state? What is the impact of making such information available to citizens? How does it transform their relationship with political actors and government agencies? Simultaneously, how are elected representatives and political parties responding to these 'transparency' initiatives? About the Speaker: Barun Mitra is the Director of Liberty Institute, a think-tank based in Delhi. He has conceptualized EmpoweringIndia.org to enable voters to cast their votes thoughtfully during the elections and to use the information on the site to hold their elected representatives accountable after they have been voted in. Barun Mitra also writes on issues of environment, health, trade and democracy in national and international publications. Time and Date: Wednesday, 15th April, 2009 17:00 - 18:30 Venue: Centre for Internet and Society, No. D2, 3rd Floor, Shariff Chambers, 14, Cunningham Road, Bangalore - 560052 Map: http://bit.ly/cis-map For more details, visit http://www.cis-india.org/events/internet-transparency-and-politics -- Pranesh Prakash Programme Manager Centre for Internet and Society W: http://cis-india.org | T: +91 80 40926283 From pawan.durani at gmail.com Tue Apr 14 14:00:46 2009 From: pawan.durani at gmail.com (Pawan Durani) Date: Tue, 14 Apr 2009 14:00:46 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Ayodhya, a simple matter of adjudication and courts and judiciary has failed the nation. In-Reply-To: <1f9180970904140012wc8ada05j187ab09b32157be9@mail.gmail.com> References: <61164a90904130350g277a507fiabe038b1721cc36a@mail.gmail.com> <1f9180970904140012wc8ada05j187ab09b32157be9@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <6b79f1a70904140130g66ad1d1dp767b0917ccb21df2@mail.gmail.com> Under the orders of the Allahabad High Court, the excavation at the disputed site of Ayodhya to ascertain whether ther was any temple structure in the Babri structure area. The report has since been opened and the contents revealed (The HINDU, August 25, 2003). According to the report, a massive structure of 10th century, of stone and brick lies buried beneath the site in addition to a carved sculpture and motifs. A large number of pillar bases were found in the excavation conducted under the supervision of the Special Officer appointed by the court. The ASI in its first part of the report has expressed its opinion and the second carries technical data like drawings, sketches, etc. Even as the excavation was under way, the contesting parties were giving contradictory views and reports. Predictably, the pro-Mosque party has instantaneously dubbed the present ASI report vague and self-contradictory. The High Court has given six weeks time for both the parties to give their opinion. As evident, both the parties were approaching the subject from a preconceived conclusion but as the Ayodhya issue is of national importance, it may be legitimate for non-committed scholars also to study the report in detail together with stratigraphic evidence and photographs of the sculpture and pillar bases. No one need to doubt the report of the highly competent department like ASI but it would help public opinion from a neutral stand to understand the intricacies of the result. The ASI needs to facilitate this study by publishing immediately, the reports with drawings, photograp[hs, etc. for public assessment, with the approval of the Court. Assuming that the ASI opinion mentioned in the report is correct, a historic judgment in an earlier case, regarding the legal right of a ruined temple, delivered by the London High Court deserves attention. "As long as even a single slab belonging to the ancient ruined temple is found in the site, the temple continues to exist in the eye of law and has its right to claim its possession." It was with reference to an ancient Hindu temple that had been ruined and remained without worship for long. The Appeal Court in London, presided over by three senior judges, to which the case was taken upheld this judgement. But the case taken to the Privy Council and the apex court also upheld the judgement. Thus, three foreign courts that command greatest respect in the world of judiciary held that the presence of even one slab in the site empowers the ancient temple to be treated as an existing entity in the eye of law, irrespective of whether the temple was in ruins or was not under worship. This decision of the London High Court was delivered hardly fifteen years ago when the then Congress Government headed by late Rajiv Gandhi was Prime Minister of India, who enthusiastically supported and got the case filed in the London High Court in the now famous London Nataraja case. The writer appeared in the case as an expert witness on behalf of the Government of India. One of the Pivotal arguments in the case, advanced by the Indian Government was "once a temple, it remains always a temple". The history of the case is as follows: A group of bronze idols including a Nataraja, was found in a land behind a ruined Chola temple at Pattur, in Tanjore District. The idols were found by a labourer, who sold the Nataraja to an antique dealer. The image was smuggled out of India and was caught in London by the Scotland Yard Police. The Government of India filed a case in the London High COurt claiming the Nataraja as a property of the ruined temple. Among the various legal points raised in the case, a few are relevant. What constitutes the Hindu temple? Is it the structure, or the space around it or the enshrined image? When the tmple has been ruined and worship ceased, whether it coule claim ownership? The court agreed that not only the building and the image but also the consecrated space around the religious building constitutes the temple. The temple ritual treatises mention various causes of ruin such as vegetation on the buildings, fire, floods, earthquakes and the like besides destruction by enemy during invasion. Having examined the ritual and historical position, the court came to the decision "so long as even one stone slab belonging to the ancient temple is found in the site, the temple continues to exist in the eye of law. Any ruined temple could be brought back to worship at any point of time by purificatory rites." The ASI, which is aware of this judgement, may be expected to appraise the Allahabad High Court while submitting the opinion and further clarifications the opinion of other Archaeologists, who study the report from an objective angle may also be of assistance in this case. It would also help to dispel the view that the ASI report is "vague and contradictory" as calimed by the other side. Whatever be the case, one thing seems to be certain that the vexed question of this case seems to be nearing an end. Temple or Tomb -- The CIrcular Structure Discovered at Ayodhya A purvabhimukha (facing east), partly damaged, circular structure of burnt bricks has been recently excavated by ASI between the trenches E8 and F8 at Ayodhya (Vide the ASI Report 2002-2003). The bricks used here are of two sizes 28 X 21 X 5.5 cm and 22 X 18 X 5 cm. The bonding material was mud mortar. On its eastern side. there is a rectangular opening, 1.32 m in length and 32.5 cm in width, which was the entrance of the structure. A calcrete block, measuring 70 X 27 X 17 cm. has also been found here, fixed as the doorsill. An extremely important feature of this structure is the provision of a gargoyle (paranala) made in its northern wall. The ASI Report records that it is 0.04 m wide and 0.53 m long projecting 35 cm from the northern wall of the structure. It is 'V' shaped so that water may drop a little away from the wall. The elevation suggests that this structure was built on a raised platform, viz. adhishthana. The gargoyle, or the drain, was provided on the norther side. The structure may be dated to 9th-10th century AD (The ASI carried out C-14 determination from this level and the calibrated date ranges between 900 AD and 1030 AD). This was an independent miniature shrine. The architectural peculiarities suggest that, in all probability, it was a Shiva temple where a Sivalingam was in worship, for example, the gargoyle has been provided to drain out the milk and water offered in the abhisheka ceremony. Noticeable is the fact that gargoyle is given on the northern side as is prescribed in the Vastu texts. It is amazing that, in spite of all these architectural features available in situ, of the Sultanate Period, Irfan Habib is calling it Muslim tomb. Nothing can be more absure than this identification because in India tombs were never built on a circular plan. It was either a square or octagonal in plan and there is not a single example of circular brick tomb. Secondly, it is too small a structure for a tomb, from inside it is only 4.4 ft. square. Neither could it accommodate a grabe in its interior, nor a Qiblah-Mihrab on its western wall. Qiblah was an integral and essential part of tomb-structure during the Sultanate Period (1192-1526 AD) as is illustrated by numerous examples all over northern India. Thirdly, there is no trace of an arch required for sonstructing dome over the tomb. There are no nook shafts to bear them and no structural trace to suggest any lateral thrust of the mihrab. It may be noted that the sub-structure of the mihrab is built massively on the edges and the four corners, to counter the lateral thrust. One wonders, if it was a tomb without any arch or dome, and without even a grave. Thus, on the one hand the dimensions of this structure are too small for a tomb and on the other the gagoyle was never used in tombs, while it was an integral feature of the sanctum of Siva temples to drain out the water poured on the Shivalinga. The gargoyle is there and to deny its existence is to cast aspersions not only on 25 excavatyors, both Hindus and Muslims, of the ASI, 2 judges, and 500 policemen but also on a dozen nominees of the concerned parties, who were constantly present during the excavations. It may be mentioned in this connection that a similar brick temple, circular in plan of the 8th-9th century AD has been recently excavated by the writer at Govisana (Kashipur, Uttaranchal). It also has a similar gargoyle in the north and it has also a rectangular projection on the east. Irfan Habib will do well, therefore, to substantiate his claim by citing a single example of a circular brick tomb of the Sultanate Period in India. Otherwise, his identification will remain bogus and completely rejected on academic grounds. (Dr. R. Nagaswamy, Former Director of Archaeology, Tamil Nadu) On Tue, Apr 14, 2009 at 12:42 PM, Venugopalan K M wrote: > What dispute? Who told you that Babrai Masjid belonged to Mr.Advani &Co? > Who's he to be the (criminal )demolisher of the masid and the builder of > ram > temp le in the name of "all hindus" of India? > > Who told you that you and me should have any real stakes in the > destruction > of that humble masjid(which had to stop namaz owing to the handiwork of few > communalists and certain secularists like Nehru, who just wanted to stop > trouble)? > > Actually, a Malayali Nair( K.K.Nair) who had been the dist magistratre of > Faizabad in 1948 and a sympathizer of the anti-national RSS and killers of > M.K.Gandhi is believed to have conspired to smuggle idols of Ram,Seetha and > Hanuman in the dead of a december night..precisely on Dec 22-23,though I > have to check the exact date, and later claiming these idols as "swayam > bhu"(originated divinely and without human agency)! > > Granted that you and me have the freedom to believe any trash as history. > But authentic historical studies have shown that nowhere in Ayodhya, Ram > Temples were existing even in the times of Thulasidas(16th century) who > wrote Ramcharitmanas! > > Go with more and more of trash..plz don't try to impose on others in your > service (though it is welcome, because it exposes rather than conceals your > commitment to the politics of hatred)to the hidutwa bigots! > > Let the sense of refinement prevail on you thanks to your being a member > of this discussion forum and to your willingness to communicate to > instantly > whatever you "think"! > btw, thanks for providing the exact information on the > measurement of the land which is pending to be handed over to ---------, > because of "spineless judges" sitting there. > Certainly it is not you or me who are the holders of stake,I think.. > Nor is it the entire hindus of India... > Who could it be then you are so passionately and so blindly taking wakalat > for? > > > Regards, > Venu. > > On Mon, Apr 13, 2009 at 4:20 PM, Rajen Uppinangadi < > rajen882uppinangadi at gmail.com> wrote: > > > The issue is simply the matter of adjudication of issue of ownership of > > land > > of admeasuring 42 feet by 65 feet, by the court of India, judges have > > fudged > > for decades as spineless individuals waiting for their promotion and made > > this an emotive issue by the plitical parties for the vote banks. > > > > As to Advani and his rath yathra, it should be noted that rath yathra did > > not start the communal riots, but stoppage of Rathyathra by lalu yadav > for > > vote gains of community in his winning combination of MY equation started > > the riots, the system of governance did nothing to punish those indulgig > in > > riots but rewarded them with MLA and MP tickets, thus criminalisation > > became > > history of indian politics. > > > > What should have been disposed off as simple property suit, of a > scheduled > > property, of a dilapidated structure, became masjid without prayers, to > > become birth point of Lord rama, as if all were the midwifes at the > time.? > > _________________________________________ > > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > > Critiques & Collaborations > > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > > subscribe in the subject header. > > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> > > > > > -- > http://venukm.blogspot.com/ > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > subscribe in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> From kshmendra2005 at yahoo.com Tue Apr 14 15:21:20 2009 From: kshmendra2005 at yahoo.com (Kshmendra Kaul) Date: Tue, 14 Apr 2009 02:51:20 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Reader-list] Congress created Pakistan, Pakistan created the BJP? - Jawed Naqvi (DAWN) Message-ID: <828779.56834.qm@web57205.mail.re3.yahoo.com> "Congress created Pakistan, Pakistan created the BJP? By Jawed Naqvi Monday, 13 Apr, 2009 | 01:58 PM PST |   A potentially sinister event has prompted this column. It is my sense from a few visits to Pakistan beginning with 1997 that a large number of Pakistanis prefer the rightwing religious revivalist Bharatiya Janata Party (BJP) to rule India. On the other hand, they are wary of the Congress. This tendency, I gather, is more pronounced within the Pakistani bureaucracy and the military. I know of Pakistani diplomats and officials who would be privately praying for the BJP to win the April-May elections in India.   To some extent this is true also of some of the journalists I have interacted with from different parts of Pakistan. They include those that claim to work for peace and dialogue between the two countries. The BJP has sold them the myth that it can alone solve the Kashmir dispute, not the Congress or anyone else.   There is a counter grouse among Pakistanis. Many of them feel, and they are probably spot on, that the bulk of the Indian establishment, including that media which works with the establishment, has a subcutaneous liking for the military in preference to civilian governments in Islamabad, and, in recent days, for General Pervez Musharraf in particular. This was reflected in some ways in the standing ovation the former army chief received recently at the end of a televised interaction he had with the movers and shakers of Delhi. And who was the one person Musharraf wanted to meet in Delhi but couldn’t? It was none other than his favourite BJP leader Atal Behari Vajpayee.   By a similar logic, the rule governing the more perverse cross-border affinities should apply to the Taliban and others sharing its mindset. All their acts of terrorism and zealotry within Pakistan, Afghanistan and beyond serve to consolidate rightwing religious politics in India with a more hardened hard-line state to boot. Erosion of democracy and liberal ideals inherited from Mohandas Gandhi and Jawaharlal Nehru is a major consequence. The irony is that nothing suits the BJP more than the Taliban-type religious bigotry. It works brilliantly as a counterpoint for its communal mobilisation.   It is ironical too that the most liberal and secular leaders that India ever produced – Messrs Gandhi and Nehru – were responsible in their on ways for eventually edging out an equally secular and liberal Mohammed Ali Jinnah from the Congress. (He is the only of the three who had a love marriage, with a woman not of his religion!) For better or worse, a piqued Jinnah helped create a separate state for a large number of India’s Muslims. In this sense a mathematical equation has been doing the rounds in my head for some time now: The Congress created Pakistan, and Pakistan, by doing everything to undermine secularism in India, created the BJP.   Let me flesh this out in broad strokes. Firstly, the affinity between the Pakistani establishment and the BJP is not recent. It is grounded in a common ideological corner they shared during the Cold War. Before the advent of Manmohan Singh as a Congress factotum 1991, the BJP was seen as India’s main pro-America party. So were the military establishment and its religious accoutrements in Pakistan. Moreover, having never got to govern India until 1996, when it formed a 13-day government under Atal Behari Vajpayee, the BJP was not directly involved in the bruising wars with Pakistan. The 1971 encounter, which won for Indira Gandhi the sobriquet of Goddess Durga from Vajpayee, left a deep wound in the Pakistani psyche, more so the military and its religious companions.   When Mrs Gandhi was assassinated in 1984, Indian supporters of Pakistan’s Jamaat-i-Islami exulted how all three leaders they held responsible for the dismemberment of the Islamic state of Pakistan – Mujibur Rehman, Zulfikar Ali Bhutto and Indira Gandhi – had died violent deaths. There was silence from the group though when the Jamaat’s main benefactor Gen Zia ul Haq too perished in similar circumstances. The Cold War had ensured that Indira Gandhi, the closest ally Moscow ever had in India, never visited Pakistan.   Her son was the first prime minister since Nehru to go across the border.   In this vein an ideological tit for tat occurred when Mrs Gandhi decorated Pakhtoon leader Abdul Ghaffar Khan –intensely disliked by the Pakistani military– with the highest civilian award of Bharat Ratna. Zia got his chance for a comeuppance when India briefly had a pro-American government, in which the BJP was a key partner. He decorated then prime minister Morarji Desai with Nishan-i-Pakistan although another reason cited for this was Desai’s steadfast refusal to be involved, as opposed to Mrs Gandhi’s petitioning of Zia, to save Bhutto.   At least two factors could be cited to explain the apparent soft corner the Pakistani establishment – initially the rightwing, now the centre-right as well – harbours for the BJP. One is rooted in a myth the other in religion.   The myth is that only the BJP and none else can solve the intractable issues with Pakistan, including the Kashmir dispute. To keep the story warm the BJP continues to issue periodic warnings to Congress governments and others against a ‘sell-out’ on Kashmir. It did so just before the Mumbai attacks. The reality is different. The toughest resolution to date on Kashmir was passed by parliament during Congress stewardship under the late Narasimha Rao.   Religion is a different kettle of fish. For a long time the BJP had peddled its idea of Hindutva as an aspect of cultural nationalism, distinct from religion. But in practice the idea and its party both worked precisely for religious consolidation, Hindu, Sikh, Muslim, all. It is commonplace that the BJP’s idea of India gives heart to the religious caboodle in Pakistan, and in turn fortifies what they would like their idea of Pakistan to be.   Columnist A.G. Noorani last week quoted an encounter Nehru had in 1963 with young and senior foreign ministry officers. His foreign secretary Y.D. Gundevia reminded Nehru that the communists had won power in Kerala in 1957 and asked: ‘But what happens to the services if the communists are elected to power, tomorrow, at the Centre, here in New Delhi?’   Gundevia records: ‘He pondered over my long drawn out question and then said, looking across the room, ‘Communists, communists, communists, why are all of you so obsessed with communists and communism? What is it that communists can do that we cannot do and have not done for the country? Why do you imagine the communists will ever be voted into power at the Centre?’ There was a long pause after this and then he said, spelling it out slowly and very deliberately, ‘The danger to India, mark you, is not communism, it is Hindu right-wing communalism.’   If the Pakistani establishment disliked Nehru, the BJP and its Hindutva partners hate him. Chances are that Nehru’s warning will not go unheeded in the coming elections. But the BJP, meanwhile, has been surreptitiously working at another attempt to convert the secular state into an obscurantist possibly also a theocratic one. A little known letter written by the BJP’s prime ministerial hopeful Lal Kishan Advani to the clergy of different religions was published in The Telegraph of Calcutta on Sunday.   The letter says: ‘It will be my endeavour to seek on a regular basis the guidance of spiritual leaders of all denominations on major challenges and issues facing the nation. For this, we shall evolve a suitable consultative mechanism.’ Iran’s higher interior ministry is known as the Ministry of Islamic Guidance.   Advani’s letter, according to The Telegraph, follows a charter of demands from the Dharma Raksha Manch, a body supported by the Vishwa Hindu Parishad that claims India’s identity cannot be religion-neutral and has demanded the country be declared a ‘spiritual nation.’   ‘The Manch has representatives from all major religions but draws its sustenance from the larger RSS fold. Many of its demands –on conversions and the protection of the cow, the Ganga and the Ram Setu– find mention in Advani’s letter,’ according to the report. If he succeeds, neither the Taliban nor the Pakistan military has to try to unravel Nehru’s India. They have the BJP to do the job even better.   jawednaqvi at gmail.com   http://www.dawn.com/wps/wcm/connect/dawn-content-library/dawn/the-newspaper/columnists/jawed-naqvi-congress-created-pakistan%2C-pakistan-created-the-bjp   From rajen882uppinangadi at gmail.com Tue Apr 14 15:27:42 2009 From: rajen882uppinangadi at gmail.com (Rajen Uppinangadi) Date: Tue, 14 Apr 2009 15:27:42 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Fwd: Ayodhya, a simple matter of adjudication and courts and judiciary has failed the nation. In-Reply-To: <61164a90904140248g1f36ba50rcac8dd3f4b394172@mail.gmail.com> References: <61164a90904130350g277a507fiabe038b1721cc36a@mail.gmail.com> <1f9180970904140012wc8ada05j187ab09b32157be9@mail.gmail.com> <61164a90904140056y69003ad4h390bdb395298a968@mail.gmail.com> <1f9180970904140123t66a3968cr297c45b5d6af41e2@mail.gmail.com> <1f9180970904140125i70ca6c43v5bd37aca017f3273@mail.gmail.com> <61164a90904140248g1f36ba50rcac8dd3f4b394172@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <61164a90904140257x4eb6cc37v5d666e84c8af8fbf@mail.gmail.com> ---------- Forwarded message ---------- From: Rajen Uppinangadi Date: Tue, Apr 14, 2009 at 3:18 PM Subject: Re: [Reader-list] Ayodhya, a simple matter of adjudication and courts and judiciary has failed the nation. To: Venugopalan K M Hi, Venu, the suggestion as to what Hitler did and the subsequent surmise that hindus are doing exactly that is the venom spread by leftist idiots have been spreading for too long, saying that RSS and BJP is fascist, if you feel that it is spade, it is your choice and freedom of expression, as to fascism, it is seen by me in close quarers in left trade unions by me in the way in which the movement is managed by left parties only to be rejected by workers as they see leaders living parasytical life on the subscription of the poor workers. As far as I am concerned humans have human fault lines, and the least faults in public life is expected of those who are in governance, be it political leaders, babudom or media and judiciary, if they also indulge in corruption, nepotism and that too without ethics and morals, governance will not be that without discrimination. With choice limited to murder convicts, dacoits , robbers and pick-pockets the choive for the voter is to see that those elected will not be the most heinous.? On Tue, Apr 14, 2009 at 1:55 PM, Venugopalan K M wrote: > plz read the word "raided" in my earlier post as "raised"-sorry for the > typo > Venu.. > > > > On Tue, Apr 14, 2009 at 1:53 PM, Venugopalan K M wrote: > >> Thanks for your support to the idea of uniting the nation. >> However, I can't help reminding you that Hitler also wanted to "unite" by >> ridding of who didn't want to agree with his idea of unity.If you are an >> expert on this issue, please answer to the other ponts raided by me there. >> I have no dispute to your point that there might earlier have been dispute >> as well relating to the ownership of the land on which the masjid stood..but >> it doesn't invalidate my account of what happened since 1948,unless you >> specifically bring some contention. I only told that the masjis was having >> namaz till a few days consequent to the incident in which three idols were >> smuggled into the masjid by some anti-social elements and propagated the lie >> that these were "swayam bhu." >> And last but not least: - >> Where was "venom" in my post..whatever it is, I will tell you that I would >> rather, call a spade a spade, if you'd like it or not. >> Regards, >> Venu. >> >> >> >> On Tue, Apr 14, 2009 at 1:26 PM, Rajen Uppinangadi < >> rajen882uppinangadi at gmail.com> wrote: >> >>> Venu, >>> >>> so much of venom and poisonous outburst are not good for anyones >>> health.Your hate is just plain and visible in the post. >>> >>> In case your update is not helping you, the land dispute is much >>> earlier than 1948, it all started in 1873 for your information between two >>> cousins of the maharaja of that area, later, some others joned it, much >>> later muslim law board, all India Babri masjid committee etc were impleading >>> for joining in the suit matter. >>> >>> As far as Advani is concerned, it was vote gathering tool for him, this >>> issue, same as the gate unlocking by Rajiv Pheroz Khan, who used this to >>> appease sections of hindus.! It s no different with left and its goon cadres >>> who happily rape and kill people in any area where they are in groups to >>> take over the property of the tiller, so stop playing games of holier than >>> thou type of posts. >>> >>> Democratic governance of the nation is rule of laws without >>> discrimination and all political parties have failed miserably in this >>> aspect, only redeeming factor is BJP is trying to unite the hindu community >>> above the caste conundrums, you like it or not, while Congress divided the >>> sections of the society on castes, faith and regional dividers. >>> >>> Regards. >>> >>> Rajen. >>> >>> >>> On Tue, Apr 14, 2009 at 12:42 PM, Venugopalan K M >> > wrote: >>> >>>> What dispute? Who told you that Babrai Masjid belonged to Mr.Advani &Co? >>>> Who's he to be the (criminal )demolisher of the masid and the builder of >>>> ram temp le in the name of "all hindus" of India? >>>> >>>> Who told you that you and me should have any real stakes in the >>>> destruction of that humble masjid(which had to stop namaz owing to the >>>> handiwork of few communalists and certain secularists like Nehru, who just >>>> wanted to stop trouble)? >>>> >>>> Actually, a Malayali Nair( K.K.Nair) who had been the dist magistratre >>>> of Faizabad in 1948 and a sympathizer of the anti-national RSS and killers >>>> of M.K.Gandhi is believed to have conspired to smuggle idols of Ram,Seetha >>>> and Hanuman in the dead of a december night..precisely on Dec 22-23,though I >>>> have to check the exact date, and later claiming these idols as "swayam >>>> bhu"(originated divinely and without human agency)! >>>> >>>> Granted that you and me have the freedom to believe any trash as >>>> history. But authentic historical studies have shown that nowhere in >>>> Ayodhya, Ram Temples were existing even in the times of Thulasidas(16th >>>> century) who wrote Ramcharitmanas! >>>> >>>> Go with more and more of trash..plz don't try to impose on others in >>>> your service (though it is welcome, because it exposes rather than conceals >>>> your commitment to the politics of hatred)to the hidutwa bigots! >>>> >>>> Let the sense of refinement prevail on you thanks to your being a >>>> member of this discussion forum and to your willingness to communicate to >>>> instantly whatever you "think"! >>>> btw, thanks for providing the exact information on the >>>> measurement of the land which is pending to be handed over to ---------, >>>> because of "spineless judges" sitting there. >>>> Certainly it is not you or me who are the holders of stake,I think.. >>>> Nor is it the entire hindus of India... >>>> Who could it be then you are so passionately and so blindly taking >>>> wakalat for? >>>> >>>> >>>> Regards, >>>> Venu. >>>> >>>> On Mon, Apr 13, 2009 at 4:20 PM, Rajen Uppinangadi < >>>> rajen882uppinangadi at gmail.com> wrote: >>>> >>>>> The issue is simply the matter of adjudication of issue of ownership of >>>>> land >>>>> of admeasuring 42 feet by 65 feet, by the court of India, judges have >>>>> fudged >>>>> for decades as spineless individuals waiting for their promotion and >>>>> made >>>>> this an emotive issue by the plitical parties for the vote banks. >>>>> >>>>> As to Advani and his rath yathra, it should be noted that rath yathra >>>>> did >>>>> not start the communal riots, but stoppage of Rathyathra by lalu yadav >>>>> for >>>>> vote gains of community in his winning combination of MY equation >>>>> started >>>>> the riots, the system of governance did nothing to punish those >>>>> indulgig in >>>>> riots but rewarded them with MLA and MP tickets, thus criminalisation >>>>> became >>>>> history of indian politics. >>>>> >>>>> What should have been disposed off as simple property suit, of a >>>>> scheduled >>>>> property, of a dilapidated structure, became masjid without prayers, to >>>>> become birth point of Lord rama, as if all were the midwifes at the >>>>> time.? >>>>> _________________________________________ >>>>> reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. >>>>> Critiques & Collaborations >>>>> To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with >>>>> subscribe in the subject header. >>>>> To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list >>>>> List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> -- >>>> http://venukm.blogspot.com/ >>>> >>> >>> >> >> >> -- >> http://venukm.blogspot.com/ >> > > > > -- > http://venukm.blogspot.com/ > From rajen882uppinangadi at gmail.com Tue Apr 14 15:37:17 2009 From: rajen882uppinangadi at gmail.com (Rajen Uppinangadi) Date: Tue, 14 Apr 2009 15:37:17 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Fwd: Ayodhya, a simple matter of adjudication and courts and judiciary has failed the nation. In-Reply-To: <61164a90904140305x1f4fa415i4962b70a98ec2d5f@mail.gmail.com> References: <61164a90904130350g277a507fiabe038b1721cc36a@mail.gmail.com> <1f9180970904140012wc8ada05j187ab09b32157be9@mail.gmail.com> <61164a90904140056y69003ad4h390bdb395298a968@mail.gmail.com> <1f9180970904140123t66a3968cr297c45b5d6af41e2@mail.gmail.com> <1f9180970904140125i70ca6c43v5bd37aca017f3273@mail.gmail.com> <61164a90904140248g1f36ba50rcac8dd3f4b394172@mail.gmail.com> <61164a90904140257x4eb6cc37v5d666e84c8af8fbf@mail.gmail.com> <61164a90904140305x1f4fa415i4962b70a98ec2d5f@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <61164a90904140307h71c039c7o280e868293e7695b@mail.gmail.com> ---------- Forwarded message ---------- From: Rajen Uppinangadi Date: Tue, Apr 14, 2009 at 3:35 PM Subject: Re: [Reader-list] Ayodhya, a simple matter of adjudication and courts and judiciary has failed the nation. To: Rajen Uppinangadi By the way, why bring in a region and a malayali about the idols in the disputed site of Ayodhya, can you not see him as a culprit who acted on behalf of psuedo secular agenda of the rulers in democratic India at that time.? Would you see Com. Pinarayi Vijayan as corrupt malayali or a corrupt comrade who has to get in to the wheels of just implementation of rue of laws just as any deviant BJP or Congress leaders who flout rule of laws. The issue here is rule of laws have always been bent to accommodate the powerful, which is unacceptable in democratic governance. Regards. Rajen. On Tue, Apr 14, 2009 at 3:27 PM, Rajen Uppinangadi < rajen882uppinangadi at gmail.com> wrote: > > > ---------- Forwarded message ---------- > From: Rajen Uppinangadi > Date: Tue, Apr 14, 2009 at 3:18 PM > Subject: Re: [Reader-list] Ayodhya, a simple matter of adjudication and > courts and judiciary has failed the nation. > To: Venugopalan K M > > > Hi, > Venu, > > the suggestion as to what Hitler did and the subsequent surmise that > hindus are doing exactly that is the venom spread by leftist idiots have > been spreading for too long, saying that RSS and BJP is fascist, if you feel > that it is spade, it is your choice and freedom of expression, as to > fascism, it is seen by me in close quarers in left trade unions by me in the > way in which the movement is managed by left parties only to be rejected by > workers as they see leaders living parasytical life on the subscription of > the poor workers. > As far as I am concerned humans have human fault lines, and the least > faults in public life is expected of those who are in governance, be it > political leaders, babudom or media and judiciary, if they also indulge in > corruption, nepotism and that too without ethics and morals, governance will > not be that without discrimination. With choice limited to murder convicts, > dacoits , robbers and pick-pockets the choive for the voter is to see that > those elected will not be the most heinous.? > > > On Tue, Apr 14, 2009 at 1:55 PM, Venugopalan K M wrote: > >> plz read the word "raided" in my earlier post as "raised"-sorry for the >> typo >> Venu.. >> >> >> >> On Tue, Apr 14, 2009 at 1:53 PM, Venugopalan K M wrote: >> >>> Thanks for your support to the idea of uniting the nation. >>> However, I can't help reminding you that Hitler also wanted to "unite" by >>> ridding of who didn't want to agree with his idea of unity.If you are an >>> expert on this issue, please answer to the other ponts raided by me there. >>> I have no dispute to your point that there might earlier have been >>> dispute as well relating to the ownership of the land on which the masjid >>> stood..but it doesn't invalidate my account of what happened since >>> 1948,unless you specifically bring some contention. I only told that the >>> masjis was having namaz till a few days consequent to the incident in which >>> three idols were smuggled into the masjid by some anti-social elements and >>> propagated the lie that these were "swayam bhu." >>> And last but not least: - >>> Where was "venom" in my post..whatever it is, I will tell you that I >>> would rather, call a spade a spade, if you'd like it or not. >>> Regards, >>> Venu. >>> >>> >>> >>> On Tue, Apr 14, 2009 at 1:26 PM, Rajen Uppinangadi < >>> rajen882uppinangadi at gmail.com> wrote: >>> >>>> Venu, >>>> >>>> so much of venom and poisonous outburst are not good for anyones >>>> health.Your hate is just plain and visible in the post. >>>> >>>> In case your update is not helping you, the land dispute is much >>>> earlier than 1948, it all started in 1873 for your information between two >>>> cousins of the maharaja of that area, later, some others joned it, much >>>> later muslim law board, all India Babri masjid committee etc were impleading >>>> for joining in the suit matter. >>>> >>>> As far as Advani is concerned, it was vote gathering tool for him, >>>> this issue, same as the gate unlocking by Rajiv Pheroz Khan, who used this >>>> to appease sections of hindus.! It s no different with left and its goon >>>> cadres who happily rape and kill people in any area where they are in groups >>>> to take over the property of the tiller, so stop playing games of holier >>>> than thou type of posts. >>>> >>>> Democratic governance of the nation is rule of laws without >>>> discrimination and all political parties have failed miserably in this >>>> aspect, only redeeming factor is BJP is trying to unite the hindu community >>>> above the caste conundrums, you like it or not, while Congress divided the >>>> sections of the society on castes, faith and regional dividers. >>>> >>>> Regards. >>>> >>>> Rajen. >>>> >>>> >>>> On Tue, Apr 14, 2009 at 12:42 PM, Venugopalan K M < >>>> kmvenuannur at gmail.com> wrote: >>>> >>>>> What dispute? Who told you that Babrai Masjid belonged to Mr.Advani >>>>> &Co? >>>>> Who's he to be the (criminal )demolisher of the masid and the builder >>>>> of ram temp le in the name of "all hindus" of India? >>>>> >>>>> Who told you that you and me should have any real stakes in the >>>>> destruction of that humble masjid(which had to stop namaz owing to the >>>>> handiwork of few communalists and certain secularists like Nehru, who just >>>>> wanted to stop trouble)? >>>>> >>>>> Actually, a Malayali Nair( K.K.Nair) who had been the dist magistratre >>>>> of Faizabad in 1948 and a sympathizer of the anti-national RSS and killers >>>>> of M.K.Gandhi is believed to have conspired to smuggle idols of Ram,Seetha >>>>> and Hanuman in the dead of a december night..precisely on Dec 22-23,though I >>>>> have to check the exact date, and later claiming these idols as "swayam >>>>> bhu"(originated divinely and without human agency)! >>>>> >>>>> Granted that you and me have the freedom to believe any trash as >>>>> history. But authentic historical studies have shown that nowhere in >>>>> Ayodhya, Ram Temples were existing even in the times of Thulasidas(16th >>>>> century) who wrote Ramcharitmanas! >>>>> >>>>> Go with more and more of trash..plz don't try to impose on others in >>>>> your service (though it is welcome, because it exposes rather than conceals >>>>> your commitment to the politics of hatred)to the hidutwa bigots! >>>>> >>>>> Let the sense of refinement prevail on you thanks to your being a >>>>> member of this discussion forum and to your willingness to communicate to >>>>> instantly whatever you "think"! >>>>> btw, thanks for providing the exact information on the >>>>> measurement of the land which is pending to be handed over to >>>>> ---------, because of "spineless judges" sitting there. >>>>> Certainly it is not you or me who are the holders of stake,I think.. >>>>> Nor is it the entire hindus of India... >>>>> Who could it be then you are so passionately and so blindly taking >>>>> wakalat for? >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> Regards, >>>>> Venu. >>>>> >>>>> On Mon, Apr 13, 2009 at 4:20 PM, Rajen Uppinangadi < >>>>> rajen882uppinangadi at gmail.com> wrote: >>>>> >>>>>> The issue is simply the matter of adjudication of issue of ownership >>>>>> of land >>>>>> of admeasuring 42 feet by 65 feet, by the court of India, judges have >>>>>> fudged >>>>>> for decades as spineless individuals waiting for their promotion and >>>>>> made >>>>>> this an emotive issue by the plitical parties for the vote banks. >>>>>> >>>>>> As to Advani and his rath yathra, it should be noted that rath yathra >>>>>> did >>>>>> not start the communal riots, but stoppage of Rathyathra by lalu yadav >>>>>> for >>>>>> vote gains of community in his winning combination of MY equation >>>>>> started >>>>>> the riots, the system of governance did nothing to punish those >>>>>> indulgig in >>>>>> riots but rewarded them with MLA and MP tickets, thus criminalisation >>>>>> became >>>>>> history of indian politics. >>>>>> >>>>>> What should have been disposed off as simple property suit, of a >>>>>> scheduled >>>>>> property, of a dilapidated structure, became masjid without prayers, >>>>>> to >>>>>> become birth point of Lord rama, as if all were the midwifes at the >>>>>> time.? >>>>>> _________________________________________ >>>>>> reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. >>>>>> Critiques & Collaborations >>>>>> To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with >>>>>> subscribe in the subject header. >>>>>> To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list >>>>>> List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> -- >>>>> http://venukm.blogspot.com/ >>>>> >>>> >>>> >>> >>> >>> -- >>> http://venukm.blogspot.com/ >>> >> >> >> >> -- >> http://venukm.blogspot.com/ >> > > > From rakesh.rnbdj at gmail.com Tue Apr 14 15:45:26 2009 From: rakesh.rnbdj at gmail.com (Rakesh Iyer) Date: Tue, 14 Apr 2009 15:45:26 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Congress created Pakistan, Pakistan created the BJP? - Jawed Naqvi (DAWN) In-Reply-To: <828779.56834.qm@web57205.mail.re3.yahoo.com> References: <828779.56834.qm@web57205.mail.re3.yahoo.com> Message-ID: Dear Kshamendra (and all) Since you have put up this article, I would also like to share my views on it. Mind you, it's not a comment on you, but this article. The BJP is a party which has misused the Hindu religion, as equally as Islam has been misused in Pakistan and other nations like Afghanistan in the name of protecting culture, society and even the nation. However, this does not mean they can be criticized for bringing religion into politics. All those who feel that religion doesn't involve politics are living in a fool's paradise. Religion is politics. It always involves politics. When it is decided that a temple would be constructed for the devotees to express their devotion, and people donate money for the cause, is it not politics. Is it not the case if Muslims donate money for building a mosque? Isn't that too politics? Organized religion expects that people pray 5 times a day in a particular direction. It asks that people should go to temples day in and day out. It expects people to be always fearing God. It asks people to follow customs and traditions which have no reasons or rationale. Isn't that politics? The fact is that even Gandhi used religion in politics. And he himself acknowledges it. When an earthquake struck Bihar in the pre-independence period, (around 1934 I think), Gandhi went around telling people that the earthquake was a price people paid for practicing untouchability. Isn't untouchability politics? And didn't what Gandhi say and ask people to do also meant politics? The problem is not that religion is mixed with politics. It always was there and is there in politics, and both are inter linked. The issue is that religion should be used as an issue for constructive society building, as this can certainly go a long way in human development. My problem with the BJP is that it misuses religion to destroy society. A scene of 'The Final Solution" : In Ahmedabad, there is a place called Vejalpur. There, you can see something called the 'border'. It's not an Indo-Pak border, it's a Hindu-Muslim border. People from 'their' side don't cross over to the 'other' side unless absolutely necessary and essential. They accuse each other of creating troubles during 2002 after Godhra. And while Hindus are living in tall buildings and belong to middle class, Muslims are living in slums or shanties. And both accuse each other of violence. My issue is not that any side is pious; both may have indulged in stone pelting and violence. As I see it, there is a class and religion gap between the two people. If I would have been CM of Gujarat, I would have been ashamed of such divisions and would have got children of people living on either side of the border (with proper fencing) to study in common schools, so as to at least get rid of the suspicions and wrong notions about each other. What has Modi and his government done about it? Those who talk about Gandhi must know that he used religion to bridge gaps in society. He was proud that Hinduism gave him the tools to do so. Today, people are misusing Hinduism to create divisions. As for Advani, the less said the better. Whenever anybody talks about BJP, nationalism and other things, Kandahar was, is and will be an albatross around the neck of BJP for the issues they raise. (And unlike others, I would say BJP did the right thing then) As for Pakistan and BJP, it is Pakistan which has ensured that BJP survives on the basis of its ideology. If there is no Pakistan (suppose it were to be bombed or some other configuration emerges with no Taliban), the ideology of RSS and their supporters would go away for a toss. Anyways, for their handling of Indo-Pak crisis at different times, the BJP only deserves kicks, tomatoes and eggs. And unlike what Modi says, the day BJP wins an absolute majority in Parliament, Pakistan army would be celebrating the most like our BJP supporters here. And if required, US satellites would show proofs of that. Regards Rakesh From jeebesh at sarai.net Tue Apr 14 15:48:59 2009 From: jeebesh at sarai.net (Jeebesh) Date: Tue, 14 Apr 2009 15:48:59 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Are we all "lemonade intellectuals"? Message-ID: <294768EA-7EA3-44DC-AD85-FB19BC93AF54@sarai.net> dear All, Why does thinking needs event? The list becomes active whenever some event appears in the daily news. View and counters views flow into the list. Why is it so? Does these thought can only find words when there is event, and otherwise it cannot work itself out or just remain muted or wordless? In college there used to be a joke about "neembu-paani" or lemonade intellectuals. This was for people who needed to show their concerns about the poor, the marginalized etc but constantly needed events to happen so that they can do so. We all know that our political environment is full of "lemonade intellectuals" but why does ordinary people who are subscriber to this list much in mimic with them. just wondering. illumination most welcome. warmly jeebesh From rajen882uppinangadi at gmail.com Tue Apr 14 15:51:40 2009 From: rajen882uppinangadi at gmail.com (Rajen Uppinangadi) Date: Tue, 14 Apr 2009 15:51:40 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] The true face of some of the clergies., in all faiths. Message-ID: <61164a90904140321g1623a3d6hbc84d9f34bb4166d@mail.gmail.com> Sir, how do you say that all those who are engaged in " gods' work " are not in need of sensuous plesures for their bodies.? There are enough evidence and hard facts to show that those in this sphere of spirituality are as good or bad as ordinary men and women when it comes to the basic needs of the body. Regards. Rajen. From rajen882uppinangadi at gmail.com Tue Apr 14 15:55:26 2009 From: rajen882uppinangadi at gmail.com (Rajen Uppinangadi) Date: Tue, 14 Apr 2009 15:55:26 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] The true faces of clergies in all faiths. Message-ID: <61164a90904140325mfed768du5e9d37352c67a78a@mail.gmail.com> Listen, in all faiths there are the clergies who preach ways of understanding god and goodness, but when they preach, it is not necessary that they should practice, that is why the saying, those who preach ' .........., but unfortunately it is true in every walk of life.? From ambarien at yahoo.co.uk Tue Apr 14 16:07:20 2009 From: ambarien at yahoo.co.uk (ambarien qadar) Date: Tue, 14 Apr 2009 03:37:20 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Reader-list] Fwd: cinema city curtain raiser Message-ID: <47646.25582.qm@web24605.mail.ird.yahoo.com> Hi everyone. Apologies for cross posting. Ambarien > Dear Friends, > > Majlis will present  curtain raiser for its current > project Cinema > City: Bombay/Mumbai at IIC, New Delhi on 19th April, 2009, > 6.30pm. > Cinema City is an interdisciplinary practice based archive > project. > The project eventually will include other Asian cities > which are > marked by the productions of cinema. > > > > Programme: > > a)  Film-  Dark Room by Renu Savant  (10 minutes), the > city as a > darkroom creates many chemical reactions through its > agitation and > development of emulsions > > b)      Introduction to the project:  Madhusree Dutta > (5 minutes) > > c)      Religion of cinema: An audio jatra: Shrikant > Agawane (10 minutes) > > d)            Cinema-City-Nation: time Line: > Renu Savant / Hansa > Thapliyal (15 minutes) > > d)    Film- Screenplay Dailogue Synopsis by Rrivu Laha > (10 minutes), > portrait of a cinema citizen > > e)    Cartographing the Cinema City: Rohan Shivkumar > (20 minutes), > mapping cinemas         in the city > > f)   Notes on  Pila House: Abeer Gupta (10 minutes) > > h)       Phantom Lady or Kismet: a photoromance,  > Pushpamala N (15 minutes) > > > > Please do come if your in Delhi. > > Regards, > > Madhusree > > > > > > -- > www.majlisbombay.org > > > > > -- > Ambarien Al Qadar > > > > -- > Ambarien Al Qadar From kshmendra2005 at yahoo.com Tue Apr 14 16:11:00 2009 From: kshmendra2005 at yahoo.com (Kshmendra Kaul) Date: Tue, 14 Apr 2009 03:41:00 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Reader-list] The true face of some of the clergies., in all faiths. In-Reply-To: <61164a90904140321g1623a3d6hbc84d9f34bb4166d@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <566691.39849.qm@web57203.mail.re3.yahoo.com> Dear Rajen   It is unethical to ascribe to another person such words or positions that have not been articulated by that person.   You have done exactly that. It is disgusting.   Please tell me where it is that I have said """"that all those who are engaged in "gods' work" are not in need of sensuous plesures for their bodies."""""   Kshmendra --- On Tue, 4/14/09, Rajen Uppinangadi wrote: From: Rajen Uppinangadi Subject: The true face of some of the clergies., in all faiths. To: kshmendra2005 at yahoo.com Cc: reader-list at sarai.net Date: Tuesday, April 14, 2009, 3:51 PM Sir, how do you say that all those who are engaged in " gods' work " are not in need of sensuous plesures for their bodies.?  There are enough evidence and hard facts to show that those in this sphere of spirituality are as good or bad as ordinary men and women when it comes to the basic needs of the body. Regards. Rajen. From rajen882uppinangadi at gmail.com Tue Apr 14 16:21:25 2009 From: rajen882uppinangadi at gmail.com (Rajen Uppinangadi) Date: Tue, 14 Apr 2009 16:21:25 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Fwd: The true face of some of the clergies., in all faiths. In-Reply-To: <61164a90904140350h6f5f46cdk22b6012bc9a42dd2@mail.gmail.com> References: <61164a90904140321g1623a3d6hbc84d9f34bb4166d@mail.gmail.com> <566691.39849.qm@web57203.mail.re3.yahoo.com> <61164a90904140350h6f5f46cdk22b6012bc9a42dd2@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <61164a90904140351t4925773eof42e48da4ec6b91a@mail.gmail.com> ---------- Forwarded message ---------- From: Rajen Uppinangadi Date: Tue, Apr 14, 2009 at 4:20 PM Subject: Re: The true face of some of the clergies., in all faiths. To: kshmendra2005 at yahoo.com Dear Sir, where have I said that you have said or posted the quoted words, I own them, I posted them, I mean these thoughts as correct. As to question of ethics, what ethics is that to hide behind the god's work when some one is as humane in his physical need, but the issue becomes ethical and moral when the supposed to be pious, ascetics indulge in carnal activities, which they are supposed to be abstaining.! Regards. Rajen. On Tue, Apr 14, 2009 at 4:11 PM, Kshmendra Kaul wrote: > Dear Rajen > > It is unethical to ascribe to another person such words or positions that > have not been articulated by that person. > > You have done exactly that. It is disgusting. > > Please tell me where it is that I have said """"that all those who are > engaged in "gods' work" are not in need of sensuous plesures for their > bodies.""""" > > Kshmendra > > --- On *Tue, 4/14/09, Rajen Uppinangadi *wrote: > > From: Rajen Uppinangadi > Subject: The true face of some of the clergies., in all faiths. > To: kshmendra2005 at yahoo.com > Cc: reader-list at sarai.net > Date: Tuesday, April 14, 2009, 3:51 PM > > > Sir, > how do you say that all those who are engaged in " gods' work " are not in > need of sensuous plesures for their bodies.? > > There are enough evidence and hard facts to show that those in this sphere > of spirituality are as good or bad as ordinary men and women when it comes > to the basic needs of the body. > > Regards. > Rajen. > > > From kshmendra2005 at yahoo.com Tue Apr 14 16:39:46 2009 From: kshmendra2005 at yahoo.com (Kshmendra Kaul) Date: Tue, 14 Apr 2009 04:09:46 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Reader-list] The true face of some of the clergies., in all faiths. In-Reply-To: <61164a90904140350h6f5f46cdk22b6012bc9a42dd2@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <668389.84740.qm@web57204.mail.re3.yahoo.com> Dear Rajen   Your exact words in the question asked of me were:   """"" Sir, how do you say that all those who are engaged in " gods' work " are not in need of sensuous plesures for their bodies.? """""""   You asked me "how do you say that ...". This means that according to you, I said it. I did not.   Kshmendra     --- On Tue, 4/14/09, Rajen Uppinangadi wrote: From: Rajen Uppinangadi Subject: Re: The true face of some of the clergies., in all faiths. To: kshmendra2005 at yahoo.com Date: Tuesday, April 14, 2009, 4:20 PM Dear Sir,  where have I said that you have said or posted the quoted words, I own them, I posted them, I mean these thoughts as correct. As to question of ethics, what ethics is that to hide behind the god's work when some one is as humane in his physical need, but the issue becomes ethical and moral when the supposed to be pious, ascetics indulge in carnal activities, which they are supposed to be abstaining.! Regards. Rajen. On Tue, Apr 14, 2009 at 4:11 PM, Kshmendra Kaul wrote: Dear Rajen   It is unethical to ascribe to another person such words or positions that have not been articulated by that person.   You have done exactly that. It is disgusting.   Please tell me where it is that I have said """"that all those who are engaged in "gods' work" are not in need of sensuous plesures for their bodies."""""   Kshmendra --- On Tue, 4/14/09, Rajen Uppinangadi wrote: From: Rajen Uppinangadi Subject: The true face of some of the clergies., in all faiths. To: kshmendra2005 at yahoo.com Cc: reader-list at sarai.net Date: Tuesday, April 14, 2009, 3:51 PM Sir, how do you say that all those who are engaged in " gods' work " are not in need of sensuous plesures for their bodies.?  There are enough evidence and hard facts to show that those in this sphere of spirituality are as good or bad as ordinary men and women when it comes to the basic needs of the body. Regards. Rajen. From shuddha at sarai.net Tue Apr 14 16:51:57 2009 From: shuddha at sarai.net (Shuddhabrata Sengupta) Date: Tue, 14 Apr 2009 16:51:57 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] The true face of some of the clergies., in all faiths. In-Reply-To: <61164a90904140321g1623a3d6hbc84d9f34bb4166d@mail.gmail.com> References: <61164a90904140321g1623a3d6hbc84d9f34bb4166d@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <72020EB0-90A5-4D5C-8420-463C2242009E@sarai.net> Dear All, I find this exchange quite enlivening, especially as it does in the middle of so much chest-heaving victim speak and crisis laden paranoia, which nowadays rules the Reader List exactly like the shrill syrupyness of Lata Mangeshkar's voice once ruled the airwaves of All India Radio. In traditional Persian poetry the pious pederast Maulana is a stock figure of fun. And there are many instances of him being depicted as being as distracted by the prospect of casting his eyes on the ripples in the robes of genuflecting bodies of the adoloscents in his charge as he is being attentive to the sound of the muezzin's call to prayer. And I can still remember with delight the sight of video-grabs of eminent holy men of one of the Swaminarayan sects caught in flagrante delicto in holy hindu Gujarat. Nor can I ever forget the pathetic tale of a young volunteer (a swayamsevak who will remain anonymous for reasons of his privacy) who once told me how he was compelled to serve the hierophants of a Hindutva citadel in Nagpur in more ways than were strictly ordained by the celibate (brahmacharya) code of the inner echelons of the Sangh Parivar. Actually, I have no problems with Maulanas, Bishops, Rabbis, Sants, Swamijis, Jihadis, Pracharaks and Acharyas entertaining themselves in brothels or in pious private pleasure-pavilions. More power to their dancing shoes and to their glinting rosaries, and vials of viagra to their dynamic libidos ! I would just prefer it if they did it with the rest of us, in the open, instead of hiding behind their cloaks of piety. It just confirms for me that the pleasures of the flesh still have a greater purchase than the peaks of the spirit, especially for those who would pretend otherwise. And for every Taliban commander who froths at the mouth while flogging prostate women, there is another who is probably a pimp in reverse drag, with even a hint of nailpolish glinting at the edge of a Kalashnikov trigger. I would not be surprised if the zealot and the rake were not but simply jekyll and hyde. What bothers me is the high horse on which the pious invariably stand. Hectoring us all to abstain while they claim an a premature bonus on the fruits of paradise for the sake of enlivening their own jaded earthly appetites. Is it fair, I ask you, that only the holy be so jolly? regards, Shuddha On 14-Apr-09, at 3:51 PM, Rajen Uppinangadi wrote: > Sir, > how do you say that all those who are engaged in " gods' work " are > not in > need of sensuous plesures for their bodies.? > > There are enough evidence and hard facts to show that those in > this sphere > of spirituality are as good or bad as ordinary men and women when > it comes > to the basic needs of the body. > > Regards. > Rajen. > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > subscribe in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> Shuddhabrata Sengupta The Sarai Programme at CSDS Raqs Media Collective shuddha at sarai.net www.sarai.net www.raqsmediacollective.net From yasir.media at gmail.com Tue Apr 14 17:10:54 2009 From: yasir.media at gmail.com (=?windows-1256?B?eWFzaXIgfu3HINPR?=) Date: Tue, 14 Apr 2009 16:40:54 +0500 Subject: [Reader-list] The Goddess Hingala Of Baluchistan In-Reply-To: <415050.49766.qm@web31705.mail.mud.yahoo.com> References: <415050.49766.qm@web31705.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <5af37bb0904140440x4a2585dcu8998eafad2fece0a@mail.gmail.com> http://offroadpakistan.com/pictures/hingol_2005/ On Tue, Apr 14, 2009 at 11:17 AM, francesca recchia wrote: > thanks for sharing this! > > francesca recchia > kiccovich at yahoo.com > it +39 338 166 3648 > iq +964 (0) 750 7085 681 > http://www.veleno.tv/bollettini/ > > > --- On Tue, 14/4/09, anupam chakravartty wrote: > > From: anupam chakravartty > Subject: Re: [Reader-list] The Goddess Hingala Of Baluchistan > To: "sarai list" > Date: Tuesday, 14 April, 2009, 8:11 AM > > dear pawan, > > A very interesting and informative story there. > > regards, > anupam > > On 4/14/09, Pawan Durani wrote: > > > > *The Goddess Hingala Of **Baluchistan*** > > > > *By Sanjay Godbole* > > > > > > > > “Baluchistan “ is a State in Pakistan, having a fairly vast expanse. > > Hingola > > is an ancient river, which traverses across the terrains of Baluchistan. > A > > mountain named ‘Khirdhar’ is situated at the banks of river Hingol. At > the > > extreme end portion of this mountain, which is popularly known as > *Kanraj*, > > there is an ancient cave known as ‘*Hingalaj*’. This place is situated > > in *Tehsil > > Lyari *of Baluchistan and is, since ancient times, reckoned as the > largest > > and the most famous place of Worship of the Goddess Hingla in the Indian > > Sub-continent. The “Hingalaj” cave is located at a distance of 250 > > kilometers from “Karachi” on Karachi-Quetta highway. On the eastern > side, > > is situated a town called Lyari. Next to Lyari, not very far, is located > a > > military base of Baluchistan. One has to cross two rivers named Aghor and > > Gungi, to arrive at Ashapura Sarai hermitage’ charitable rest house for a > > camping halt where the Hingalaj cave is situated in the near vicinity. > > > > At this location, there are some old temples of worshiping such as Lord > > Ganesha, remains like Goddess mother Kali, Guru Gorakhnath, Brahmkunda, > Ram > > Zarokha, Anil Kund and holy place of Gruha of Goddess Devi. > > > > During the Treta-Yuga epoch or era (according to Hindu mythology there > are > > 4 > > yugas (Eras) Satyayug *Dwaparyug,* Treta-Yuga and *Kalki*-*Yug* .When * > > Parshuram* incarnated, *Dadhichi* the Famous ascetic sage had penned a > > predictive story. King *Vichatar*, a descendent of a Tartar > > *Mangol*Dynasty, ruled this province. He had two sons, named “Hingol” > > and “Sunder” > > * Sunder* brutally oppressed the populace. The harassed public, > propitiated > > Lord Shiva, and the Lord Ganesha (Son of Shiva). Lord Ganesha killed > > Sunder. > > > > Later on, Sunder’s brother, Hingol, who had received boons, which ensured > > that he (Hingol) would not meet death by any weapon whatsoever, in any of > > the three lokas (worlds)' as per Hindu mythological concept three worlds > > exist worlds *Swarg, Mrityu. Pataal Hingol*, all the same, would not > remain > > immune to death. Hingol soon became insolent and opressed his subjects. > He > > also added new territories to his Kingdom. He, thereafter, suo moto, > > assumed > > the title as Hingol Dev (God Hingol). Ultimately, the people as a > resultant > > reaction, worshipped “Goddess Shakti”. > > > > The Goddess killed Hingol in a cave at a place known as “*Satdeep*” in, > > what > > is known as ‘Baluchistan’today. Hingol, just before meeting his death, > > requested and prayed to Goddess Shakti, that he be identified and be > > synonymous with his name. The place, thenceforth, was known as “*Hingol > > Tirth*”. > > > > When Alexander the great, invaded “Sistan” now called “Baluchistan” > > presently, in the year 325 B.C., the Greek forces were camping at the > banks > > of river “Hingol”. Sikandar waged a war with the King of “Balikot”. Some > > devotees of Goddess Hingla were there, to worship the Goddess Hingla and > > they were all safe. > > > > Emperor “Vikramaditya” at the time of Vanquishing India, visited this > place > > as a devotee. King, Todarmal, contemporary of Emperor “Akbar” had also > > visited this place as a devotee. So also did many Rajput nobles, and > > personalities such as Biharimal, Madhusingh, & Raja Jagtatsingh visit the > > place. > > > > *Dada Mek-han*, the famous saint of Gujrat, came all the way from > Gujarat, > > to visit and have glimpses of this holy place. Those devo-tees, visiting > > this place Hingalag are addressed as ‘Kapdis’. The pilgrims, after > > completion of their pilgrimage, sport a string, made out of “Thumra”, a > > variety of stone, mined from “Thatta” in Sindh. > > > > Prior to the partition of British India, in 1947, many devotees, > especially > > from “Gujarat” and “Rajasthan” regularly visited “Baluchistan” to > > propitiate > > Goddess “Hingla”. Travelling was not that easy and comfortable at that > > time. > > The travellers had to undertake the tedious journey by braving the > barriers > > such as rough and sloppery roads, jungles, mountains and crossing of > > challenging rivers. This tedious journey, at times had to be completed on > > the back of camels or in a Palanquin and would last for about a month or > > so. > > > > Shri Varsimal Devani, a Trust of Swami Narayan Temple , a religious cult > > popular as Vaishnava, residing on Mohamad Ali Jinnah Road in Karachi, is > > also a trusth of Hingla Mata Temple of Baluchasitan. He also arranges > tours > > to Hingla Teerth. He very graciously made available to me some fine > > photographs of Hinglamata Mandir. > > > > According to Shri Devani, the Goddess Hingla Devi being famous all > around, > > devotees from Africa and even Europe frequent this pilgrimage spot in > > multitudes. > > > > As per the legend, in Uttar Ramayana, Lord Rama visited Hingla Teerth in > a > > sortie in his aircraft “*Pushpak*” and bathed in the water basin (Jal > > Kunda) > > here. One spot in this area is identified with Lord Rama’s sacred visit. > > > > Shri. Devani further added, that the temple of Hingla Mata is inside a > cave > > and it admeasures 25 feet by 12 feet. There is no idol of the deity, but > > only the Astan (Seat) and the trident. > > > > A priest is duly appointed for carrying out daily rituals and general > > maintenance and house keeping. > > > > Each year a minimum of Twenty five thousand strong contigent of devotees > > visit there for pilgrimage. They offer flowers and coconuts to the > Goddess > > Hingla. Some offer a cloth piece suitable for Blouse, making such an > offer > > is considered to be auspicious. Some offer “Saubhagya Lenis” and even > > silver > > canopies Umbrellas i.e. according to Hindu belief, a married lady is > > considered to be fortunate, if she passes away prior to her husband. > Since > > dry fruits are available in abundance in Baluchistan, these are offered > to > > the deity and are distributed to the visitors as blessings of the deity. > > > > Devani said that the members of “Zigri”, a Baluch tribe reside in this > > area. > > They also worship the deity and take a vow. When their vows are fulfilled > > these “Zigri Baloch come to the spot and offer Mithi roti (Sweetened > > Bread). > > All the members of their family gather on such an occasion. They address > > Hinglamata as “Nanima” . (Nani means mother’s mother ). All the security > > personnel of this temple are Baloch. This was specifically mentioned by > > Shri. Varsimal Devani. > > > > As per the legend described in “Shiva-Purana” Sati’s main mortal remains > > fell over this part of the land. Sati was the daughter of “King Daksha” > and > > wife of Lord Shiva who preferred to go “Sati”. (Sati according to > orthodox > > Hindu beliefs, a married woman after the death of her husband should > > immolate herself on the pyre of her husband , this it is claimed is > > necessary for her salvage in future births) . Hence this place assumed > > importance in the specified holy places of the Goddess. > > > > But exactly like the “Sharada” temple in Kashmir, this place Hingla > Teerth > > is now in Pakistan. Hence we (Indians) are deprived of an easy access do > > this place. > > **(The author is a noted Archeologist, a linguist and expert on the > history > > of South-West Asia)* > > ** > > *Source: Kashmir Sentinel* > > _________________________________________ > > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > > Critiques & Collaborations > > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > > subscribe in the subject header. > > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > > List archive: > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > subscribe in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: > > > > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > subscribe in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: From kmvenuannur at gmail.com Tue Apr 14 17:16:56 2009 From: kmvenuannur at gmail.com (Venugopalan K M) Date: Tue, 14 Apr 2009 17:16:56 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Ayodhya, a simple matter of adjudication and courts and judiciary has failed the nation. In-Reply-To: <6b79f1a70904140130g66ad1d1dp767b0917ccb21df2@mail.gmail.com> References: <61164a90904130350g277a507fiabe038b1721cc36a@mail.gmail.com> <1f9180970904140012wc8ada05j187ab09b32157be9@mail.gmail.com> <6b79f1a70904140130g66ad1d1dp767b0917ccb21df2@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <1f9180970904140446n6161cafft1433a967454027f0@mail.gmail.com> Dear Pavan, Rajen and others, My point here, will be that even the courts promoting efforts to push the evidences too far way points of history only to help bringing in so called 'expert' archaeological evidences to prove the existence of remnances of a temple (beneath the masjid) is problematic. How do these proofs concern the collective desire of Hindus and Muslims to live in harmony and peace? Even the law relating to possession has it that uninterrupted possession for even a matter of few decades has to be some weightage in ascertaining the right in a property dispute. If at all you end up with the court finding the existence of the remnants of a temple beneath the ground dug(of the masjid), what happens? Your self proclaimed guardians of Hindus will ask their band to march to some other spot and dictate terms to dig and find out another temple..this is not going to end, unless people understand and see through all these games; resist by all means the religious nationalism of the Hidutwa brigade. This idea of religious nationalism is absolutely deplorable in my point of view and you can reckon me as a secularist or whatever for that. The Indian state has also behaved in ways conducive to promoting hatred on the ground of religion,despite the constitution and a system of law guaranteeing equality before it and equal protection of it. My question is that should we,as citizens of a democratic secular republic be really concerned with hate politics or not ? If the answer is yes, peoples' primary concern will be seeing through the treacherous games of hate politicians and their informed supporters. Thanks, Venu. On Tue, Apr 14, 2009 at 2:00 PM, Pawan Durani wrote: > Under the orders of the Allahabad High Court, the excavation at the > disputed site of Ayodhya to ascertain whether ther was any temple structure > in the Babri structure area. The report has since been opened and the > contents revealed (The HINDU, August 25, 2003). According to the report, a > massive structure of 10th century, of stone and brick lies buried beneath > the site in addition to a carved sculpture and motifs. A large number of > pillar bases were found in the excavation conducted under the supervision of > the Special Officer appointed by the court. The ASI in its first part of the > report has expressed its opinion and the second carries technical data like > drawings, sketches, etc. > > Even as the excavation was under way, the contesting parties were giving > contradictory views and reports. Predictably, the pro-Mosque party has > instantaneously dubbed the present ASI report vague and self-contradictory. > The High Court has given six weeks time for both the parties to give their > opinion. As evident, both the parties were approaching the subject from a > preconceived conclusion but as the Ayodhya issue is of national importance, > it may be legitimate for non-committed scholars also to study the report in > detail together with stratigraphic evidence and photographs of the sculpture > and pillar bases. > > No one need to doubt the report of the highly competent department like ASI > but it would help public opinion from a neutral stand to understand the > intricacies of the result. The ASI needs to facilitate this study by > publishing immediately, the reports with drawings, photograp[hs, etc. for > public assessment, with the approval of the Court. Assuming that the ASI > opinion mentioned in the report is correct, a historic judgment in an > earlier case, regarding the legal right of a ruined temple, delivered by the > London High Court deserves attention. "As long as even a single slab > belonging to the ancient ruined temple is found in the site, the temple > continues to exist in the eye of law and has its right to claim its > possession." It was with reference to an ancient Hindu temple that had been > ruined and remained without worship for long. > > The Appeal Court in London, presided over by three senior judges, to which > the case was taken upheld this judgement. But the case taken to the Privy > Council and the apex court also upheld the judgement. Thus, three foreign > courts that command greatest respect in the world of judiciary held that the > presence of even one slab in the site empowers the ancient temple to be > treated as an existing entity in the eye of law, irrespective of whether the > temple was in ruins or was not under worship. This decision of the London > High Court was delivered hardly fifteen years ago when the then Congress > Government headed by late Rajiv Gandhi was Prime Minister of India, who > enthusiastically supported and got the case filed in the London High Court > in the now famous London Nataraja case. The writer appeared in the case as > an expert witness on behalf of the Government of India. > > One of the Pivotal arguments in the case, advanced by the Indian Government > was "once a temple, it remains always a temple". The history of the case is > as follows: A group of bronze idols including a Nataraja, was found in a > land behind a ruined Chola temple at Pattur, in Tanjore District. The idols > were found by a labourer, who sold the Nataraja to an antique dealer. The > image was smuggled out of India and was caught in London by the Scotland > Yard Police. The Government of India filed a case in the London High COurt > claiming the Nataraja as a property of the ruined temple. > > Among the various legal points raised in the case, a few are relevant. What > constitutes the Hindu temple? Is it the structure, or the space around it or > the enshrined image? When the tmple has been ruined and worship ceased, > whether it coule claim ownership? The court agreed that not only the > building and the image but also the consecrated space around the religious > building constitutes the temple. The temple ritual treatises mention various > causes of ruin such as vegetation on the buildings, fire, floods, > earthquakes and the like besides destruction by enemy during invasion. > Having examined the ritual and historical position, the court came to the > decision "so long as even one stone slab belonging to the ancient temple is > found in the site, the temple continues to exist in the eye of law. Any > ruined temple could be brought back to worship at any point of time by > purificatory rites." > > The ASI, which is aware of this judgement, may be expected to appraise the > Allahabad High Court while submitting the opinion and further clarifications > the opinion of other Archaeologists, who study the report from an objective > angle may also be of assistance in this case. It would also help to dispel > the view that the ASI report is "vague and contradictory" as calimed by the > other side. Whatever be the case, one thing seems to be certain that the > vexed question of this case seems to be nearing an end. > > Temple or Tomb -- The CIrcular Structure Discovered at Ayodhya > > A purvabhimukha (facing east), partly damaged, circular structure of burnt > bricks has been recently excavated by ASI between the trenches E8 and F8 at > Ayodhya (Vide the ASI Report 2002-2003). > > The bricks used here are of two sizes 28 X 21 X 5.5 cm and 22 X 18 X 5 cm. > The bonding material was mud mortar. On its eastern side. there is a > rectangular opening, 1.32 m in length and 32.5 cm in width, which was the > entrance of the structure. A calcrete block, measuring 70 X 27 X 17 cm. has > also been found here, fixed as the doorsill. > > An extremely important feature of this structure is the provision of a > gargoyle (paranala) made in its northern wall. The ASI Report records that > it is 0.04 m wide and 0.53 m long projecting 35 cm from the northern wall of > the structure. It is 'V' shaped so that water may drop a little away from > the wall. > > The elevation suggests that this structure was built on a raised platform, > viz. adhishthana. The gargoyle, or the drain, was provided on the norther > side. The structure may be dated to 9th-10th century AD (The ASI carried out > C-14 determination from this level and the calibrated date ranges between > 900 AD and 1030 AD). > > This was an independent miniature shrine. The architectural peculiarities > suggest that, in all probability, it was a Shiva temple where a Sivalingam > was in worship, for example, the gargoyle has been provided to drain out the > milk and water offered in the abhisheka ceremony. Noticeable is the fact > that gargoyle is given on the northern side as is prescribed in the Vastu > texts. > > It is amazing that, in spite of all these architectural features available > in situ, of the Sultanate Period, Irfan Habib is calling it Muslim tomb. > Nothing can be more absure than this identification because in India tombs > were never built on a circular plan. It was either a square or octagonal in > plan and there is not a single example of circular brick tomb. > > Secondly, it is too small a structure for a tomb, from inside it is only > 4.4 ft. square. Neither could it accommodate a grabe in its interior, nor a > Qiblah-Mihrab on its western wall. Qiblah was an integral and essential part > of tomb-structure during the Sultanate Period (1192-1526 AD) as is > illustrated by numerous examples all over northern India. Thirdly, there is > no trace of an arch required for sonstructing dome over the tomb. There are > no nook shafts to bear them and no structural trace to suggest any lateral > thrust of the mihrab. It may be noted that the sub-structure of the mihrab > is built massively on the edges and the four corners, to counter the lateral > thrust. One wonders, if it was a tomb without any arch or dome, and without > even a grave. > > Thus, on the one hand the dimensions of this structure are too small for a > tomb and on the other the gagoyle was never used in tombs, while it was an > integral feature of the sanctum of Siva temples to drain out the water > poured on the Shivalinga. The gargoyle is there and to deny its existence is > to cast aspersions not only on 25 excavatyors, both Hindus and Muslims, of > the ASI, 2 judges, and 500 policemen but also on a dozen nominees of the > concerned parties, who were constantly present during the excavations. > > It may be mentioned in this connection that a similar brick temple, > circular in plan of the 8th-9th century AD has been recently excavated by > the writer at Govisana (Kashipur, Uttaranchal). It also has a similar > gargoyle in the north and it has also a rectangular projection on the east. > > Irfan Habib will do well, therefore, to substantiate his claim by citing a > single example of a circular brick tomb of the Sultanate Period in India. > Otherwise, his identification will remain bogus and completely rejected on > academic grounds. > > (Dr. R. Nagaswamy, Former Director of Archaeology, Tamil Nadu) > > > On Tue, Apr 14, 2009 at 12:42 PM, Venugopalan K M wrote: > >> What dispute? Who told you that Babrai Masjid belonged to Mr.Advani &Co? >> Who's he to be the (criminal )demolisher of the masid and the builder of >> ram >> temp le in the name of "all hindus" of India? >> >> Who told you that you and me should have any real stakes in the >> destruction >> of that humble masjid(which had to stop namaz owing to the handiwork of >> few >> communalists and certain secularists like Nehru, who just wanted to stop >> trouble)? >> >> Actually, a Malayali Nair( K.K.Nair) who had been the dist magistratre of >> Faizabad in 1948 and a sympathizer of the anti-national RSS and killers of >> M.K.Gandhi is believed to have conspired to smuggle idols of Ram,Seetha >> and >> Hanuman in the dead of a december night..precisely on Dec 22-23,though I >> have to check the exact date, and later claiming these idols as "swayam >> bhu"(originated divinely and without human agency)! >> >> Granted that you and me have the freedom to believe any trash as history. >> But authentic historical studies have shown that nowhere in Ayodhya, Ram >> Temples were existing even in the times of Thulasidas(16th century) who >> wrote Ramcharitmanas! >> >> Go with more and more of trash..plz don't try to impose on others in your >> service (though it is welcome, because it exposes rather than conceals >> your >> commitment to the politics of hatred)to the hidutwa bigots! >> >> Let the sense of refinement prevail on you thanks to your being a member >> of this discussion forum and to your willingness to communicate to >> instantly >> whatever you "think"! >> btw, thanks for providing the exact information on the >> measurement of the land which is pending to be handed over to ---------, >> because of "spineless judges" sitting there. >> Certainly it is not you or me who are the holders of stake,I think.. >> Nor is it the entire hindus of India... >> Who could it be then you are so passionately and so blindly taking wakalat >> for? >> >> >> Regards, >> Venu. >> >> On Mon, Apr 13, 2009 at 4:20 PM, Rajen Uppinangadi < >> rajen882uppinangadi at gmail.com> wrote: >> >> > The issue is simply the matter of adjudication of issue of ownership of >> > land >> > of admeasuring 42 feet by 65 feet, by the court of India, judges have >> > fudged >> > for decades as spineless individuals waiting for their promotion and >> made >> > this an emotive issue by the plitical parties for the vote banks. >> > >> > As to Advani and his rath yathra, it should be noted that rath yathra >> did >> > not start the communal riots, but stoppage of Rathyathra by lalu yadav >> for >> > vote gains of community in his winning combination of MY equation >> started >> > the riots, the system of governance did nothing to punish those indulgig >> in >> > riots but rewarded them with MLA and MP tickets, thus criminalisation >> > became >> > history of indian politics. >> > >> > What should have been disposed off as simple property suit, of a >> scheduled >> > property, of a dilapidated structure, became masjid without prayers, to >> > become birth point of Lord rama, as if all were the midwifes at the >> time.? >> > _________________________________________ >> > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. >> > Critiques & Collaborations >> > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with >> > subscribe in the subject header. >> > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list >> > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> >> >> >> >> >> -- >> http://venukm.blogspot.com/ >> _________________________________________ >> reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. >> Critiques & Collaborations >> To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with >> subscribe in the subject header. >> To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list >> List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> > > > -- http://venukm.blogspot.com/ From kmvenuannur at gmail.com Tue Apr 14 17:30:04 2009 From: kmvenuannur at gmail.com (Venugopalan K M) Date: Tue, 14 Apr 2009 17:30:04 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Ayodhya, a simple matter of adjudication and courts and judiciary has failed the nation. In-Reply-To: <6b79f1a70904140130g66ad1d1dp767b0917ccb21df2@mail.gmail.com> References: <61164a90904130350g277a507fiabe038b1721cc36a@mail.gmail.com> <1f9180970904140012wc8ada05j187ab09b32157be9@mail.gmail.com> <6b79f1a70904140130g66ad1d1dp767b0917ccb21df2@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <1f9180970904140500n442a1cc6i75522d4083a3280f@mail.gmail.com> Where was evidence of Ram temple there, anyway? Shivas and vishnavites were two sects fighted each other. What is the connection ? I was suggesting only that Ram temples didn't exist anywhere in Ayodhya until 16th C. I wish to know what is so specific about this dispute that concerns the BJP and Co. They are definitely not the guardians of Hindus and they can not cheat people once more raising the ploy of Ram temple. Regards, Venu. On Tue, Apr 14, 2009 at 2:00 PM, Pawan Durani wrote: > Under the orders of the Allahabad High Court, the excavation at the > disputed site of Ayodhya to ascertain whether ther was any temple structure > in the Babri structure area. The report has since been opened and the > contents revealed (The HINDU, August 25, 2003). According to the report, a > massive structure of 10th century, of stone and brick lies buried beneath > the site in addition to a carved sculpture and motifs. A large number of > pillar bases were found in the excavation conducted under the supervision of > the Special Officer appointed by the court. The ASI in its first part of the > report has expressed its opinion and the second carries technical data like > drawings, sketches, etc. > > Even as the excavation was under way, the contesting parties were giving > contradictory views and reports. Predictably, the pro-Mosque party has > instantaneously dubbed the present ASI report vague and self-contradictory. > The High Court has given six weeks time for both the parties to give their > opinion. As evident, both the parties were approaching the subject from a > preconceived conclusion but as the Ayodhya issue is of national importance, > it may be legitimate for non-committed scholars also to study the report in > detail together with stratigraphic evidence and photographs of the sculpture > and pillar bases. > > No one need to doubt the report of the highly competent department like ASI > but it would help public opinion from a neutral stand to understand the > intricacies of the result. The ASI needs to facilitate this study by > publishing immediately, the reports with drawings, photograp[hs, etc. for > public assessment, with the approval of the Court. Assuming that the ASI > opinion mentioned in the report is correct, a historic judgment in an > earlier case, regarding the legal right of a ruined temple, delivered by the > London High Court deserves attention. "As long as even a single slab > belonging to the ancient ruined temple is found in the site, the temple > continues to exist in the eye of law and has its right to claim its > possession." It was with reference to an ancient Hindu temple that had been > ruined and remained without worship for long. > > The Appeal Court in London, presided over by three senior judges, to which > the case was taken upheld this judgement. But the case taken to the Privy > Council and the apex court also upheld the judgement. Thus, three foreign > courts that command greatest respect in the world of judiciary held that the > presence of even one slab in the site empowers the ancient temple to be > treated as an existing entity in the eye of law, irrespective of whether the > temple was in ruins or was not under worship. This decision of the London > High Court was delivered hardly fifteen years ago when the then Congress > Government headed by late Rajiv Gandhi was Prime Minister of India, who > enthusiastically supported and got the case filed in the London High Court > in the now famous London Nataraja case. The writer appeared in the case as > an expert witness on behalf of the Government of India. > > One of the Pivotal arguments in the case, advanced by the Indian Government > was "once a temple, it remains always a temple". The history of the case is > as follows: A group of bronze idols including a Nataraja, was found in a > land behind a ruined Chola temple at Pattur, in Tanjore District. The idols > were found by a labourer, who sold the Nataraja to an antique dealer. The > image was smuggled out of India and was caught in London by the Scotland > Yard Police. The Government of India filed a case in the London High COurt > claiming the Nataraja as a property of the ruined temple. > > Among the various legal points raised in the case, a few are relevant. What > constitutes the Hindu temple? Is it the structure, or the space around it or > the enshrined image? When the tmple has been ruined and worship ceased, > whether it coule claim ownership? The court agreed that not only the > building and the image but also the consecrated space around the religious > building constitutes the temple. The temple ritual treatises mention various > causes of ruin such as vegetation on the buildings, fire, floods, > earthquakes and the like besides destruction by enemy during invasion. > Having examined the ritual and historical position, the court came to the > decision "so long as even one stone slab belonging to the ancient temple is > found in the site, the temple continues to exist in the eye of law. Any > ruined temple could be brought back to worship at any point of time by > purificatory rites." > > The ASI, which is aware of this judgement, may be expected to appraise the > Allahabad High Court while submitting the opinion and further clarifications > the opinion of other Archaeologists, who study the report from an objective > angle may also be of assistance in this case. It would also help to dispel > the view that the ASI report is "vague and contradictory" as calimed by the > other side. Whatever be the case, one thing seems to be certain that the > vexed question of this case seems to be nearing an end. > > Temple or Tomb -- The CIrcular Structure Discovered at Ayodhya > > A purvabhimukha (facing east), partly damaged, circular structure of burnt > bricks has been recently excavated by ASI between the trenches E8 and F8 at > Ayodhya (Vide the ASI Report 2002-2003). > > The bricks used here are of two sizes 28 X 21 X 5.5 cm and 22 X 18 X 5 cm. > The bonding material was mud mortar. On its eastern side. there is a > rectangular opening, 1.32 m in length and 32.5 cm in width, which was the > entrance of the structure. A calcrete block, measuring 70 X 27 X 17 cm. has > also been found here, fixed as the doorsill. > > An extremely important feature of this structure is the provision of a > gargoyle (paranala) made in its northern wall. The ASI Report records that > it is 0.04 m wide and 0.53 m long projecting 35 cm from the northern wall of > the structure. It is 'V' shaped so that water may drop a little away from > the wall. > > The elevation suggests that this structure was built on a raised platform, > viz. adhishthana. The gargoyle, or the drain, was provided on the norther > side. The structure may be dated to 9th-10th century AD (The ASI carried out > C-14 determination from this level and the calibrated date ranges between > 900 AD and 1030 AD). > > This was an independent miniature shrine. The architectural peculiarities > suggest that, in all probability, it was a Shiva temple where a Sivalingam > was in worship, for example, the gargoyle has been provided to drain out the > milk and water offered in the abhisheka ceremony. Noticeable is the fact > that gargoyle is given on the northern side as is prescribed in the Vastu > texts. > > It is amazing that, in spite of all these architectural features available > in situ, of the Sultanate Period, Irfan Habib is calling it Muslim tomb. > Nothing can be more absure than this identification because in India tombs > were never built on a circular plan. It was either a square or octagonal in > plan and there is not a single example of circular brick tomb. > > Secondly, it is too small a structure for a tomb, from inside it is only > 4.4 ft. square. Neither could it accommodate a grabe in its interior, nor a > Qiblah-Mihrab on its western wall. Qiblah was an integral and essential part > of tomb-structure during the Sultanate Period (1192-1526 AD) as is > illustrated by numerous examples all over northern India. Thirdly, there is > no trace of an arch required for sonstructing dome over the tomb. There are > no nook shafts to bear them and no structural trace to suggest any lateral > thrust of the mihrab. It may be noted that the sub-structure of the mihrab > is built massively on the edges and the four corners, to counter the lateral > thrust. One wonders, if it was a tomb without any arch or dome, and without > even a grave. > > Thus, on the one hand the dimensions of this structure are too small for a > tomb and on the other the gagoyle was never used in tombs, while it was an > integral feature of the sanctum of Siva temples to drain out the water > poured on the Shivalinga. The gargoyle is there and to deny its existence is > to cast aspersions not only on 25 excavatyors, both Hindus and Muslims, of > the ASI, 2 judges, and 500 policemen but also on a dozen nominees of the > concerned parties, who were constantly present during the excavations. > > It may be mentioned in this connection that a similar brick temple, > circular in plan of the 8th-9th century AD has been recently excavated by > the writer at Govisana (Kashipur, Uttaranchal). It also has a similar > gargoyle in the north and it has also a rectangular projection on the east. > > Irfan Habib will do well, therefore, to substantiate his claim by citing a > single example of a circular brick tomb of the Sultanate Period in India. > Otherwise, his identification will remain bogus and completely rejected on > academic grounds. > > (Dr. R. Nagaswamy, Former Director of Archaeology, Tamil Nadu) > > > On Tue, Apr 14, 2009 at 12:42 PM, Venugopalan K M wrote: > >> What dispute? Who told you that Babrai Masjid belonged to Mr.Advani &Co? >> Who's he to be the (criminal )demolisher of the masid and the builder of >> ram >> temp le in the name of "all hindus" of India? >> >> Who told you that you and me should have any real stakes in the >> destruction >> of that humble masjid(which had to stop namaz owing to the handiwork of >> few >> communalists and certain secularists like Nehru, who just wanted to stop >> trouble)? >> >> Actually, a Malayali Nair( K.K.Nair) who had been the dist magistratre of >> Faizabad in 1948 and a sympathizer of the anti-national RSS and killers of >> M.K.Gandhi is believed to have conspired to smuggle idols of Ram,Seetha >> and >> Hanuman in the dead of a december night..precisely on Dec 22-23,though I >> have to check the exact date, and later claiming these idols as "swayam >> bhu"(originated divinely and without human agency)! >> >> Granted that you and me have the freedom to believe any trash as history. >> But authentic historical studies have shown that nowhere in Ayodhya, Ram >> Temples were existing even in the times of Thulasidas(16th century) who >> wrote Ramcharitmanas! >> >> Go with more and more of trash..plz don't try to impose on others in your >> service (though it is welcome, because it exposes rather than conceals >> your >> commitment to the politics of hatred)to the hidutwa bigots! >> >> Let the sense of refinement prevail on you thanks to your being a member >> of this discussion forum and to your willingness to communicate to >> instantly >> whatever you "think"! >> btw, thanks for providing the exact information on the >> measurement of the land which is pending to be handed over to ---------, >> because of "spineless judges" sitting there. >> Certainly it is not you or me who are the holders of stake,I think.. >> Nor is it the entire hindus of India... >> Who could it be then you are so passionately and so blindly taking wakalat >> for? >> >> >> Regards, >> Venu. >> >> On Mon, Apr 13, 2009 at 4:20 PM, Rajen Uppinangadi < >> rajen882uppinangadi at gmail.com> wrote: >> >> > The issue is simply the matter of adjudication of issue of ownership of >> > land >> > of admeasuring 42 feet by 65 feet, by the court of India, judges have >> > fudged >> > for decades as spineless individuals waiting for their promotion and >> made >> > this an emotive issue by the plitical parties for the vote banks. >> > >> > As to Advani and his rath yathra, it should be noted that rath yathra >> did >> > not start the communal riots, but stoppage of Rathyathra by lalu yadav >> for >> > vote gains of community in his winning combination of MY equation >> started >> > the riots, the system of governance did nothing to punish those indulgig >> in >> > riots but rewarded them with MLA and MP tickets, thus criminalisation >> > became >> > history of indian politics. >> > >> > What should have been disposed off as simple property suit, of a >> scheduled >> > property, of a dilapidated structure, became masjid without prayers, to >> > become birth point of Lord rama, as if all were the midwifes at the >> time.? >> > _________________________________________ >> > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. >> > Critiques & Collaborations >> > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with >> > subscribe in the subject header. >> > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list >> > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> >> >> >> >> >> -- >> http://venukm.blogspot.com/ >> _________________________________________ >> reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. >> Critiques & Collaborations >> To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with >> subscribe in the subject header. >> To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list >> List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> > > > -- http://venukm.blogspot.com/ From c.anupam at gmail.com Tue Apr 14 18:10:10 2009 From: c.anupam at gmail.com (anupam chakravartty) Date: Tue, 14 Apr 2009 18:10:10 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Manmohan singh and elections.? In-Reply-To: <61164a90904140110i66f310ccxdd48146d4b1c4509@mail.gmail.com> References: <61164a90904140110i66f310ccxdd48146d4b1c4509@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <341380d00904140540v59319147hda86d946281d58f1@mail.gmail.com> Rajen There is a difference between being rhetorical and saying things backed with facts or at least some kind of observation by being present where the things are really happening. First, let’s look at your answer here. I am sure it took a long time to read up on Assam. But you have failed miserably here. Let me tell you how: 1. Associating religion with the poor immigrant who comes to Assam to work as a rickshawallah/farm labourer/egg seller/gardener is very unfortunate. Usually, in Assam they are referred as Bangladeshi not as MUSLIMS, as you stated among the educated people. 2. If you go by the historical facts, the only original inhabitants of Assam are Bodos, Kochari, Rabha and Mising tribes. Smaller tribes are also included. However, the Hindu and Ahom kings were later settlers in the area. Kamakhya temple in Guwahati was built somewhere in 14th century after Ahom and other kings of the area summoned Hindu priests. So historically, if I go by the religious way of looking at it, there were Hindu immigrants first. 3. The present Assamese youth though progressive in their outlook are more prone to work in the white collar or blue collar sectors rather than working as farm hands. Most of the labourers are either from Bangladesh or from Bihar and UP. Once these labourers are removed, most of the schemes in the state be it NDA or UPA sponsored would fail. I would request you Rajen not draw generalised idea about one specific political group from this particular region without knowing what’s really going on. I think the problems in Assam are not of communal in nature so please keep your analysis to yourself. Thanks and regards Anupam On 4/14/09, Rajen Uppinangadi wrote: > > Yes, Anupam, > > Let me agree to disagree with you, I may not know as much as you do on the > Assam affairs, but like you I do not accuse anyone without any substance > like you did for a political party and its leader.? I see and percieve and > share my perceptions with you all, and that is Tarun Gogoi could not manage > the simple majority with his party MLAs, he gave a smug smile with the > adjustment of muslim MLAs, who are known supporters of immigrants How these > immigrants are facilitated to vote is known to every one. Further, after 62 > years of rule any party has now got to perform as the citizens are getting > basics right, political awareness is good, so whether Coongress or any > party, if they do not perform well in governance, such will be voted out. > More over, the regional aspirations and citizens feeling neglected is the > main cause of concern for the nation state, as Congress all these years > wasted time in nesting itself with corruption and loot. The very theme of > development, bijli sadak and pani did not come out of Congress manifesto, > but from NDA. As to your knowledge of Assam, all I can say is it is > prejudice that is ruling your posts. > > Regards. > Rajen. > From rakesh.rnbdj at gmail.com Tue Apr 14 18:38:40 2009 From: rakesh.rnbdj at gmail.com (Rakesh Iyer) Date: Tue, 14 Apr 2009 18:38:40 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] The true face of some of the clergies., in all faiths. In-Reply-To: <72020EB0-90A5-4D5C-8420-463C2242009E@sarai.net> References: <61164a90904140321g1623a3d6hbc84d9f34bb4166d@mail.gmail.com> <72020EB0-90A5-4D5C-8420-463C2242009E@sarai.net> Message-ID: Dear Shuddha (and all) I have two issues here. First of all, I agree with your contention that the so called 'holy men' do indulge in acts which are totally contrary to their 'images' in front of the larger public. This not only denigrates religion, but also has social consequences. I say that it denigrates religion because religion is nothing but politics. Any politics would have an image and perception as a standout point to sell or get people attached to it. When we look at Congress, it's politics is one where it asks minorities to vote for it in the name of development (which encompasses more of security and less of economic betterhood). When we look at BJP, its politics is one where it asks Hindus to vote as a majority community rather than on the basis of casteism, to raise their voice against what it calls 'minority and Muslim appeasement'. Similarly, religion also has an image and a constituency from which it gets that image, as well as the constituency to which it has to show or put up that image. That gets defeated the day the truth about these holy men having indulged in sexual pleasantries comes out. And hence, it does actually denigrate religion. However, it doesn't denigrate faith. Just becaue a priest of a temple indulges in such acts doesn't mean I would stop believing in Lord Ram or Krishna. It would only point out the hypocrisy of the person and the system which allows such persons to usurp power in the name of religion. Hence, such things do denigrate religion. Here, I agree with you that why behave like so holy when you indulge in such acts. Do come out in the open. Ideally that should be the case. But it doesn't happen. However, where I don't agree with you is allowing them their sexual sexcapades. In many cases, swamis are known to have sex with women in the name of ensuring that they do have children. There are possibilities where they may be indulging in child torture and even rapes of minors. Similarly, possibilities of black mailing women to have sex or even enjoying with prostitutes do exist. And here, such sadhus and maulvis are only a problem for us. In addition, since they have posed a holy attitude, they should have served the cause of the society, for after all politics of any kind should ultimately help the people (and even those who practise it have to in principle accept this premise as well). Therefore, in my mind, such sadhus and maulvis who indulge in such acts should be properly punished, and a separate law should be prepared for having denigrated religion and acting against serving the society's cause. After all, religion has been created to serve the cause of society, not of power-hungry people. And if the latter is the case, abolish all the religions and ban them. Of course, in addition, their acts which cause others harm (like creating markets for more women and child trafficking) should ensure greater punishment to them. From rakesh.rnbdj at gmail.com Tue Apr 14 18:39:26 2009 From: rakesh.rnbdj at gmail.com (Rakesh Iyer) Date: Tue, 14 Apr 2009 18:39:26 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] The true face of some of the clergies., in all faiths. In-Reply-To: References: <61164a90904140321g1623a3d6hbc84d9f34bb4166d@mail.gmail.com> <72020EB0-90A5-4D5C-8420-463C2242009E@sarai.net> Message-ID: Dear all Sorry to have forgotten my name in the end for previous mail written to Shuddha. Regards Rakesh From pawan.durani at gmail.com Tue Apr 14 18:40:48 2009 From: pawan.durani at gmail.com (Pawan Durani) Date: Tue, 14 Apr 2009 18:40:48 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] The Goddess Hingala Of Baluchistan In-Reply-To: <5af37bb0904140440x4a2585dcu8998eafad2fece0a@mail.gmail.com> References: <415050.49766.qm@web31705.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <5af37bb0904140440x4a2585dcu8998eafad2fece0a@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <6b79f1a70904140610y31ba67e1y1f80462d784d11d8@mail.gmail.com> Dear Yasir, Thanx for sharing these pictures. Pawan On Tue, Apr 14, 2009 at 5:10 PM, yasir ~يا سر wrote: > http://offroadpakistan.com/pictures/hingol_2005/ > > > > > On Tue, Apr 14, 2009 at 11:17 AM, francesca recchia >wrote: > > > thanks for sharing this! > > > > francesca recchia > > kiccovich at yahoo.com > > it +39 338 166 3648 > > iq +964 (0) 750 7085 681 > > http://www.veleno.tv/bollettini/ > > > > > > --- On Tue, 14/4/09, anupam chakravartty wrote: > > > > From: anupam chakravartty > > Subject: Re: [Reader-list] The Goddess Hingala Of Baluchistan > > To: "sarai list" > > Date: Tuesday, 14 April, 2009, 8:11 AM > > > > dear pawan, > > > > A very interesting and informative story there. > > > > regards, > > anupam > > > > On 4/14/09, Pawan Durani wrote: > > > > > > *The Goddess Hingala Of **Baluchistan*** > > > > > > *By Sanjay Godbole* > > > > > > > > > > > > “Baluchistan “ is a State in Pakistan, having a fairly vast expanse. > > > Hingola > > > is an ancient river, which traverses across the terrains of > Baluchistan. > > A > > > mountain named ‘Khirdhar’ is situated at the banks of river Hingol. At > > the > > > extreme end portion of this mountain, which is popularly known as > > *Kanraj*, > > > there is an ancient cave known as ‘*Hingalaj*’. This place is situated > > > in *Tehsil > > > Lyari *of Baluchistan and is, since ancient times, reckoned as the > > largest > > > and the most famous place of Worship of the Goddess Hingla in the > Indian > > > Sub-continent. The “Hingalaj” cave is located at a distance of 250 > > > kilometers from “Karachi” on Karachi-Quetta highway. On the eastern > > side, > > > is situated a town called Lyari. Next to Lyari, not very far, is > located > > a > > > military base of Baluchistan. One has to cross two rivers named Aghor > and > > > Gungi, to arrive at Ashapura Sarai hermitage’ charitable rest house for > a > > > camping halt where the Hingalaj cave is situated in the near vicinity. > > > > > > At this location, there are some old temples of worshiping such as Lord > > > Ganesha, remains like Goddess mother Kali, Guru Gorakhnath, Brahmkunda, > > Ram > > > Zarokha, Anil Kund and holy place of Gruha of Goddess Devi. > > > > > > During the Treta-Yuga epoch or era (according to Hindu mythology there > > are > > > 4 > > > yugas (Eras) Satyayug *Dwaparyug,* Treta-Yuga and *Kalki*-*Yug* .When * > > > Parshuram* incarnated, *Dadhichi* the Famous ascetic sage had penned a > > > predictive story. King *Vichatar*, a descendent of a Tartar > > > *Mangol*Dynasty, ruled this province. He had two sons, named “Hingol” > > > and “Sunder” > > > * Sunder* brutally oppressed the populace. The harassed public, > > propitiated > > > Lord Shiva, and the Lord Ganesha (Son of Shiva). Lord Ganesha killed > > > Sunder. > > > > > > Later on, Sunder’s brother, Hingol, who had received boons, which > ensured > > > that he (Hingol) would not meet death by any weapon whatsoever, in any > of > > > the three lokas (worlds)' as per Hindu mythological concept three > worlds > > > exist worlds *Swarg, Mrityu. Pataal Hingol*, all the same, would not > > remain > > > immune to death. Hingol soon became insolent and opressed his subjects. > > He > > > also added new territories to his Kingdom. He, thereafter, suo moto, > > > assumed > > > the title as Hingol Dev (God Hingol). Ultimately, the people as a > > resultant > > > reaction, worshipped “Goddess Shakti”. > > > > > > The Goddess killed Hingol in a cave at a place known as “*Satdeep*” in, > > > what > > > is known as ‘Baluchistan’today. Hingol, just before meeting his death, > > > requested and prayed to Goddess Shakti, that he be identified and be > > > synonymous with his name. The place, thenceforth, was known as “*Hingol > > > Tirth*”. > > > > > > When Alexander the great, invaded “Sistan” now called “Baluchistan” > > > presently, in the year 325 B.C., the Greek forces were camping at the > > banks > > > of river “Hingol”. Sikandar waged a war with the King of “Balikot”. > Some > > > devotees of Goddess Hingla were there, to worship the Goddess Hingla > and > > > they were all safe. > > > > > > Emperor “Vikramaditya” at the time of Vanquishing India, visited this > > place > > > as a devotee. King, Todarmal, contemporary of Emperor “Akbar” had also > > > visited this place as a devotee. So also did many Rajput nobles, and > > > personalities such as Biharimal, Madhusingh, & Raja Jagtatsingh visit > the > > > place. > > > > > > *Dada Mek-han*, the famous saint of Gujrat, came all the way from > > Gujarat, > > > to visit and have glimpses of this holy place. Those devo-tees, > visiting > > > this place Hingalag are addressed as ‘Kapdis’. The pilgrims, after > > > completion of their pilgrimage, sport a string, made out of “Thumra”, a > > > variety of stone, mined from “Thatta” in Sindh. > > > > > > Prior to the partition of British India, in 1947, many devotees, > > especially > > > from “Gujarat” and “Rajasthan” regularly visited “Baluchistan” to > > > propitiate > > > Goddess “Hingla”. Travelling was not that easy and comfortable at that > > > time. > > > The travellers had to undertake the tedious journey by braving the > > barriers > > > such as rough and sloppery roads, jungles, mountains and crossing of > > > challenging rivers. This tedious journey, at times had to be completed > on > > > the back of camels or in a Palanquin and would last for about a month > or > > > so. > > > > > > Shri Varsimal Devani, a Trust of Swami Narayan Temple , a religious > cult > > > popular as Vaishnava, residing on Mohamad Ali Jinnah Road in Karachi, > is > > > also a trusth of Hingla Mata Temple of Baluchasitan. He also arranges > > tours > > > to Hingla Teerth. He very graciously made available to me some fine > > > photographs of Hinglamata Mandir. > > > > > > According to Shri Devani, the Goddess Hingla Devi being famous all > > around, > > > devotees from Africa and even Europe frequent this pilgrimage spot in > > > multitudes. > > > > > > As per the legend, in Uttar Ramayana, Lord Rama visited Hingla Teerth > in > > a > > > sortie in his aircraft “*Pushpak*” and bathed in the water basin (Jal > > > Kunda) > > > here. One spot in this area is identified with Lord Rama’s sacred > visit. > > > > > > Shri. Devani further added, that the temple of Hingla Mata is inside a > > cave > > > and it admeasures 25 feet by 12 feet. There is no idol of the deity, > but > > > only the Astan (Seat) and the trident. > > > > > > A priest is duly appointed for carrying out daily rituals and general > > > maintenance and house keeping. > > > > > > Each year a minimum of Twenty five thousand strong contigent of > devotees > > > visit there for pilgrimage. They offer flowers and coconuts to the > > Goddess > > > Hingla. Some offer a cloth piece suitable for Blouse, making such an > > offer > > > is considered to be auspicious. Some offer “Saubhagya Lenis” and even > > > silver > > > canopies Umbrellas i.e. according to Hindu belief, a married lady is > > > considered to be fortunate, if she passes away prior to her husband. > > Since > > > dry fruits are available in abundance in Baluchistan, these are offered > > to > > > the deity and are distributed to the visitors as blessings of the > deity. > > > > > > Devani said that the members of “Zigri”, a Baluch tribe reside in this > > > area. > > > They also worship the deity and take a vow. When their vows are > fulfilled > > > these “Zigri Baloch come to the spot and offer Mithi roti (Sweetened > > > Bread). > > > All the members of their family gather on such an occasion. They > address > > > Hinglamata as “Nanima” . (Nani means mother’s mother ). All the > security > > > personnel of this temple are Baloch. This was specifically mentioned by > > > Shri. Varsimal Devani. > > > > > > As per the legend described in “Shiva-Purana” Sati’s main mortal > remains > > > fell over this part of the land. Sati was the daughter of “King Daksha” > > and > > > wife of Lord Shiva who preferred to go “Sati”. (Sati according to > > orthodox > > > Hindu beliefs, a married woman after the death of her husband should > > > immolate herself on the pyre of her husband , this it is claimed is > > > necessary for her salvage in future births) . Hence this place assumed > > > importance in the specified holy places of the Goddess. > > > > > > But exactly like the “Sharada” temple in Kashmir, this place Hingla > > Teerth > > > is now in Pakistan. Hence we (Indians) are deprived of an easy access > do > > > this place. > > > **(The author is a noted Archeologist, a linguist and expert on the > > history > > > of South-West Asia)* > > > ** > > > *Source: Kashmir Sentinel* > > > _________________________________________ > > > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > > > Critiques & Collaborations > > > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > > > subscribe in the subject header. > > > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > > > List archive: > > _________________________________________ > > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > > Critiques & Collaborations > > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > > subscribe in the subject header. > > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > > List archive: > > > > > > > > _________________________________________ > > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > > Critiques & Collaborations > > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > > subscribe in the subject header. > > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > > List archive: > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > subscribe in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> From aliens at dataone.in Tue Apr 14 18:41:46 2009 From: aliens at dataone.in (bipin) Date: Tue, 14 Apr 2009 18:41:46 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] SECULARISM -DEFINITION Message-ID: <00de01c9bd02$90a58280$0201a8c0@limo> Dear All, Sometime back I have asked for definition of SECULARISM. In India, I think, who speak for or create show to speak for minority is secular and who speak for majority is communal. This is the definition of secularism in India is prevailing. The real secularism is to give equal respect and treatment to all the religions (dharma). But, what is religion or what is Dharma? It is very complicated question. The real religion or dharma is the work you do honestly and sincerely allotted to you. For Ex. You have to take care of your new born child and make him/her self sufficient by giving good culture, education, discipline, fighting spirit etc. Instead of this if you remain in the activities like prayer in temples/mosque and devote the time after god only is not the real dharma you are adopting. You carry on the work sincerely and honestly you have to do at the different stages of life is the real dharma or religion. thanks BIPIN From kmvenuannur at gmail.com Tue Apr 14 18:43:36 2009 From: kmvenuannur at gmail.com (Venugopalan K M) Date: Tue, 14 Apr 2009 18:43:36 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] =?windows-1252?q?India=3A_Supreme_Court_judge_advoc?= =?windows-1252?q?ates_=93animal_rights=94_for_alleged_terrorists?= Message-ID: <1f9180970904140613t15d3af0cr4fd97f372f4a935b@mail.gmail.com> Home » World News» India - Print - E-Mail - Feedback - Share » - Facebook - Reddit - Digg - Del.icio.us - Newsvine - Furl - Propeller - LiveJournal - Blogger - Wordpress India: Supreme Court judge advocates “animal rights” for alleged terrorists By Kranti Kumara and Keith Jones 20 February 2009 The third most senior judge on India’s Supreme Court has bluntly said in a public forum that alleged terrorists should be denied “human rights.” Instead terror suspects should be treated like animals. “What is required are animal rights,” declared Supreme Court Justice Arijit Pasayat. Pasayat’s remarks were by no means off the cuff. They were made at a January 27 seminar organized by the Indian Law Institute to discuss “Investigation and Prosecution of Offences relating to Terrorism.” They were a clarion call for India’s politicians to go even further than they did in a series of sweeping anti-terrorist laws that were passed virtually without debate following the late November terrorist atrocity in Mumbai. Under these laws, terror suspects can be held without charge for up to 180 days, the presumption of innocence is set aside for some offences, and special terror courts have been established from which the press and public can be excluded. The state has adopted a veritable catch-all definition of terrorism that could be invoked to justify the suppression of all manner of anti-government agitations. “It is important,” Pasayat told the Law Institute seminar, “to have special laws to deal with terrorists and we need to give enough time to our investigators and prosecutors to prepare the case with strong evidence.” While Pasayat, for obvious reasons, did not say so, his remarks were also clearly meant as a rebuttal of the views of India’s chief justice, K.G. Balakrishnan. Speaking at a meeting of international jurists in December, Balakrishnan had simply restated elementary democratic judicial principles, including that all individuals “irrespective of how heinous their crimes may be” are entitled to a “fair trial.” “Adherence to the constitutional principle of ‘substantive due process’ is,” said Balakrishnan, “an essential part of our collective response to terrorism.” In an argument remarkable for its vulgarity and for its frank repudiation of core bourgeois democratic judicial principles, Pasayat denounced those who show concern for the rights of terror suspects. He deplored “how human rights activists carry out protests and hold *dharnas* (a form of sit-in that may involve fasting) if rights of terror suspects are violated.” This, it must be emphasized, is in a country where the security forces—as Indian and international human rights organizations have documented in thousands of cases— routinely use torture, summary executions, disappearances and judicial frame-ups to combat armed opponents of the Indian state, be they Islamicists, Naxhalites (Maoist guerillas), or ethno-nationalist separatists. “We speak of upholding human rights,” continued Pasayat. “What we are worried [about] is the violation of the rights of terrorists, the people who kill innocent people with AK-47s and AK-56s on streets. He (a terrorist) is not fit to be called a human. He’s an animal, so what is required is animal rights.” There is more than a whiff of fascism in Pasayat’s views, and not just in his cavalier denunciations of those who stand up for the human rights of the accused and his call for terror suspects to be treated like animals. The third longest-serving judge on India’s supreme court is, as Pasayat’s remarks attest, oblivious to the seminal distinction that is at the root of India’s judicial system—the distinction between an accused and a person whom the state has proven guilty of a crime through a trial, in which the accused is able to question his accusers and challenge the evidence against him. For Pasayat a “terror suspect” is already a terrorist who should be denied even the limited rights and protections accorded convicted criminals. Pasayat did not say what he meant by “animal rights,” but they are clearly code words for torture or worse. Given his stature in the Indian judicial system, they are an open incitement for the police to abuse, even kill, terrorist suspects. In this regard, it is important to note that the Hindu supremacist Bharatiya Janata Party and its allies have long demanded that confessions made to police—as opposed to those given in open court—be admissible as evidence. So shameful is the record of the Indian police and security forces in respect to the use of torture in obtaining evidence that even the Congress Party-led government has thus far felt compelled to resist this demand. The significance of Pasayat’s remarks is underscored by the reaction to them. At the seminar itself, his views were echoed by several other prominent participants, including senior advocate Fali S. Nariman and the second highest law officer in the land, the solicitor-general of India, G.E. Vahanvati. Nariman suggested the government has been “pussy footing on terrorism,” because, unlike the public, the “Home Minister and Law Minster are protected from terrorist offences.” He said terror suspects should be stripped of the “right of silence,” that is, the right to refuse to answer questions posed by the police or in a court of law, without any inference of guilt being drawn by this refusal. Solicitor-General of India Vahanvati said that terrorism could not be fought “by conventional methods”—i.e., civil liberties and longstanding judicial principles must be suspended or set aside: “It is time to show we also know how to fight and not just bark.” India’s solicitor-general challenged Chief Justice Balakrishnan’s view that under Indian law Mohammed Ajmal Amir Kasab, the lone gunman to survive the Mumbai terrorist attack, must be provided with proper legal representation. “If a lawyer does not want to fight for Kasab,” said Vahanvati, “we should not force him or her to do so. Let Kasab defend himself before the court, if he can speak another language other than terrorism.” Since his arrest, the 21-year-old Kasab has been the object of a lynch-mob mentality whipped up by India’s ruling elite with the aim of furthering India’s longstanding geo-political rivalry with Pakistan, justifying the passage of laws that vastly increase the repressive powers of the state, and otherwise shifting Indian politics sharply to the right. It is a core democratic principle that all accused, innocent or guilty—indeed, especially the guilty—merit a proper legal defence, so as to ensure that they are not abused by the state. But the outrage over the Mumbai atrocity is being used to stampede the public into accepting the setting aside of this and other basic rights. With the active support of various bar associations, India’s legal profession has treated Kasab like a leper. All those who have been approached to undertake his legal defence have refused. And the authorities have encouraged this attitude, although as Balakrishnan has warned, given the stipulations of India’s constitution and previous Supreme Court rulings guaranteeing legal aid and establishing basic norms of a fair trial, it will be impossible from a procedural standpoint to proceed with the legal case against Kasab unless he is able to exercise his right to have a lawyer defend him. Revealing as was the reaction of Pasayat’s fellow seminar participants, even more significant has been the absence of any serious criticism, let alone outcry, against his noxious views from within the legal profession or from India’s political establishment. In fact, Pasayat’s remarks have elicited virtually no comment, a silence that bespeaks support. The failure to oppose Pasayat’s patently antidemocratic views demonstrates that there is no genuine constituency within the Indian ruling class for key democratic and legal-juridical principles, including the presumption of innocence and the right to a fair trial. It needs to be added that in recent years the Supreme Court has served as a major instrument in the bourgeoisie’s drive to transform India into a cheap-labor producer for world capitalism, a program that has resulted in increasing social inequality, economic insecurity and poverty. The Court has declared that public sectors workers have no right to strike, outlawed political strikes, asserted the power to ban commentary critical of government decisions (the *Clemenceau* case), and issued a series of decisions expanding managerial prerogatives. The working class must take heed: while the bourgeoisie likes to proclaim India the “world’s largest democracy,” it is increasingly indifferent and hostile to democratic rights and is turning to authoritarian forms of rule. New Today - Anti-government protestors clash with soldiers in Thai capital - Obama claims credit for killing Somalis - White House pushing GM toward bankruptcy - Obama moves to block court access for detainees in Afghanistan - Fiji's military junta consolidates power in defiance of Australian government more articles » India - *Indian elections:* Congress Party drops two candidates implicated in 1984 anti-Sikh pogrom - *Indian Elections:* Stalinists woo Congress Party and BJP allies - Indian economy hammered by world economic crisis - India: Supreme Court judge advocates “animal rights” for alleged terrorists - India: Intense maneuvering in run-up to spring elections more articles » World News - Obama administration ends Somali pirate standoff with lethal force - Britain: Mass demonstrations protest Sri Lankan government’s civil war - Thai government besieged by pro-Thaksin protestors - Moldova: Violent protests in aftermath of elections - Australia: Labor government unveils free-market agenda for higher education more articles » [image: Regional Conferences: The World Economic Crisis, the Failure of Capitalism, and the Case for Socialism] Read the WSWS Perspective, *Laying the foundations for a socialist movement* ------------------------------ [image: A2 Mehring Books] Donate Now *The World Socialist Web Site needs your support!* Send us your feedback Important Documents - The capitalist crisis and the return of history by David North - Nick Beams opening report to SEP summer school The crash of 2008 and its revolutionary implications - Notes on the political and economic crisis of the world capitalist system Perspective and tasks of the Socialist Equality Party in 2009 David North and Joe Kishore, 13 January 2009 - Leon Trotsky, Soviet Historiography, and the Fate of Classical Marxism by David North - A lecture by Nick Beams The World Economic Crisis: A Marxist Analysis *In PDF* more documents » SEP (US) Founding Congress - Statement of Principles *Download in PDF * - The Historical and International Foundations of the Socialist Equality Party *Download in PDF * About the SEP and the ISSE *Socialist Equality Party* - About the SEP - Contact the SEP *International Students for Social Equality* - About the ISSE - Join the ISSE -- http://venukm.blogspot.com/ From kmvenuannur at gmail.com Tue Apr 14 18:47:24 2009 From: kmvenuannur at gmail.com (Venugopalan K M) Date: Tue, 14 Apr 2009 18:47:24 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Justice Pasaiyat and Animal Rights. by K.G.Kannabiran Message-ID: <1f9180970904140617x6f0d7a0do898626d3f52b192d@mail.gmail.com> Justice Pasaiyat and Animal Rights. by K.G.Kannabiran The rapid decline of animal and bird population was a matter of grave concern and a few animal species were extinct and few were nearing extinction. The concern was for what we ordinarily describe as cruel animals like tigers lions bears cheetahs, panthers and other varieties of carnivores who in their old age or on account injuries in the paws turn these carnivores into man-eaters . The old Act protecting Animal life was out moded > Now we have a right based wild life protection law In fact Maneka Gandhi of the Maneka Gandhi case, secured for the people of this country an expanded meaningof right to life under Article 21 of the Constitution and it became so popular that many lawyers know onlyArticle21.in the Constitution. After fighting her case for right to life she appears to have decided to work to fight for the rights to life. of wild life She and Amala Akkineni and other activsts keep pushing the governments to amend the law to provide the animals greater safeguards to prevent the emergence of forest depredators like Veerappan who killed around one hundred and odd elephant.s and all of them tuskers . To protect and encash his kill he was alleged to have killed one hundred and odd police personnel. Animal are taken care of and allowed to live in their natural forest habitats If they are trapped for any reason whatsoever they are housed in National Parks in which the arboreal conditions are reproduced to make the animals lives comfortable. Villagers and tribes who have been sharing the forests with the wild animals are vacated from these areas so that they can enjoy their rights fully. The wild animals are not hounded and shot as they do to terrorists and animal rihts activists are neither shot nor incarcerated as do the human rights activist… This leads tour Supreme Court judge’s remark in a seminar conducted in the Indian Law Institute, New Delhi that the terrorists donot need human rights, but they need only animal rights. Coming from a judge of that level this remark would not be enjoyed by any right thinking person. If he thinks it is a very clever statement it is not and if it is used as a pejorative it is contumacious of human dignity which he, as a judge, is worn to uphold. What we should know is that animals are looked after well. And with much more concern. It is the people who are all citizens whose right to vote is recognized as a fundamental right to remove replace and select their government, who is hunted and hounded because he is branded a terrorist or a naxalite or a Maoist and in this human zoo they allow a Muslim ,a Sikh or a Chritian to be mauled and killed. Sir, the Constitution expects the institutions of justice to maintain high standards of justice and culiural levels in the debates and discourses from the incumbents of the institutions.. Whatever remarks the incumbents make and the views they express will be taken by the people as the views of the judges. So far as the people are concerned every one of you represent the institution and every ones bad behavior/good behavior,/ and non good behavior will be that of the institution. My immediate reaction to the statement made by Mr. Passaiayat was to ask him to demit his office.. Every judge should remember that you are neither elected or selected but nominated to the Bench. You are made irremovable to provide you necessary confidence to adjudicate issues without fear or favor and always be conscious of this fact so that you do not turn yourself in to an insufferable oligarchy. You are installed so that the executive does not turn tyrannical. You have no authority to overstep the mandate given to you by the people.. This understanding should structure your discourse in side and outside the court. A judge should discipline himself to function in tandem with an understanding of the constitutional scheme and the value system. Terrorists and criminals are produced by the Society, its structure and its practices. Crime and criminals Terror and terrorists have always been a response to misgovernance of unequal societies . We have been engaged in cultural genocide against Sikhs followed by genocidal violence on them and the response was Sikh terrorism and later we were engaged in cultural genocide and genocidal violence against Muslims and you have what we have christened as Islamic terrorism. There is a theory that Parsees and Jews are gests and Christians and Muslims are invader and the latter who are invaders have to accept what is given to them and should, like Oliver ask for more.. Basically it says that even modern societies need their Helots. If we don’t allow them the equality of status we have assured them each minority community will produce its own terrorist. A statute which suspends Rule of Law to contain terrorism and investigation and prosecution whose only aimis to nail the offence on the suspects have not succeded in eliminating political dissent and that is the lesson which history taught us. K.G. KANNABIRAN National President, PUCL Plot 300, Street 6, E. Marredpalli Secunderabad 500 026, AP Phone: 040-27730632 -- http://venukm.blogspot.com/ From indersalim at gmail.com Tue Apr 14 18:53:05 2009 From: indersalim at gmail.com (Inder Salim) Date: Tue, 14 Apr 2009 18:53:05 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] The true face of some of the clergies., in all faiths. In-Reply-To: References: <61164a90904140321g1623a3d6hbc84d9f34bb4166d@mail.gmail.com> <72020EB0-90A5-4D5C-8420-463C2242009E@sarai.net> Message-ID: <47e122a70904140623k56643f15q413baa1847f04ea8@mail.gmail.com> Thanks Shuddha for clarification here, i am thinking of Smajwadi paty of Mulayam Singh and Compnay's election manifesto, in which they oppose English and Computers in India, , but i heard their children got their education in English medium schools, not only here but abroad as well. So ,it is not surprising that Maulanas, Bishops, Rabbis, Sants, Swamijis, Jihadis, Pracharaks and Acharyas do one thing in private and other things in public, And yes, Mr. Javed and other such friends who are so disturbed by Maulvis so called evil behaviour may try to define what is Sin in the first place, and how do they understand DESIRE. please try to do it, without inhibition.... love and regards is On Tue, Apr 14, 2009 at 6:39 PM, Rakesh Iyer wrote: > Dear all > > Sorry to have forgotten my name in the end for previous mail written to > Shuddha. > > Regards > > Rakesh > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with subscribe in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> -- http://indersalim.livejournal.com From javedmasoo at gmail.com Tue Apr 14 20:49:39 2009 From: javedmasoo at gmail.com (M Javed) Date: Tue, 14 Apr 2009 20:49:39 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Was congress really responsible for '84 Sikh massacre Message-ID: Genocide 1984: long search for culprits By Shamsul Islam http://groups.yahoo.com/group/saldwr/message/1382 It is generally believed that the Congress cadres were behind this genocide. This is true but there were other forces too which actively participated in this massacre and whose role has never been investigated. Those who were witness to the genocide of 1984 were stunned by the swiftness and military precision of the killer marauding gangs (later on witnessed during the Babri mosque demolition, burning alive of Dr. Graham Steins with his two sons and recent pogrom of the Muslims in Gujarat) who went on a burning spree of the innocent Sikhs. This was beyond the capacity of the Congress thugs. I have an important RSS document which may throw some light on the unhidden aspects of the genocide. It was authored and circulated by a veteran ideologue of the RSS, Nana Deshmukh on November 8, 1984. Interestingly, this document was published in the Hindi Weekly Pratipaksh edited by George Fernandes (Defence Minister of India 1999-2004, and presently a great pal of the RSS) in its edition of November 25, 1984 titled ‘Indira Congress-RSS collusion’ with the following editorial comment: “The author of the following document is known as an ideologue and policy formulator of the RSS. After the killing of Prime Minister (Indira Gandhi) he distributed this document among prominent politicians. It has a historical significance that is why we have decided to publish it, violating policy of our Weekly. This document highlights the new affinities developing between the Indira Congress and the RSS. We produce here the Hindi translation of the document.” This document may help in unmasking the whole lot of criminals involved in the massacre of innocent Sikhs who had nothing to do with the killing of Indira Gandhi. This document may also throw light on where the cadres came from, who meticulously organized the killing of Sikhs. Nana Deshmukh in this document is seen outlining the justification of the massacre of the Sikh community in 1984. According to him the massacre of Sikhs was not the handiwork of any group or anti-social elements but the result of a genuine feeling of anger among Hindus of India. This document also shows the true degenerated and fascist attitude of the RSS towards all the minorities of India. The RSS has been arguing that they are against Muslims and Christians because they are the followers of foreign religions. Here we find them justifying the butchering of Sikhs who according to their own categorization happened to be the followers of an indigenous religion. The RSS often poses as a firm believer in Hindu-Sikh unity. But in this document we will hear from the horse’s mouth that the RSS like the then Congress leadership, believed that the massacre of the innocent Sikhs was justified. Nana Deshmukh in this document is seen outlining the justification of the massacre of the Sikh community in 1984. His defence of the carnage can be summed up as in the following. 1. The massacre of Sikhs was not the handiwork of any group or anti-social elements but the result of a genuine feeling of anger among Hindus of India. 2. Deshmukh did not distinguish the action of the two security personnel of Mrs. Indira Gandhi, who happened to be Sikhs, from that of the whole Sikh community. From his document it emerges that the killers of Indira Gandhi were working under some kind of mandate of their community. Hence attacks on Sikhs were justified. 3. Sikhs themselves invited these attacks, thus advancing the Congress theory of justifying the massacre of the Sikhs. 4. He glorified the ‘Operation Blue Star’ and described any opposition to it as anti-national. When Sikhs were being killed in thousands he was warning the country of Sikh extremism, thus offering ideological defense of those killings. 5. It was Sikh community as a whole which was responsible for violence in Punjab. 6. Sikhs should have done nothing in self-defence but showed patience and tolerance against the killer mobs. 7. These were Sikh intellectuals and not killer mobs which were responsible for the massacre. They had turned Sikhs into a militant community, cutting them off from their Hindu roots, thus inviting attacks from the nationalist Indians. Interestingly, Deshmukh would not mind having militant Hindus. Moreover, he treated all Sikhs as part of the same gang and defended attacks on them as a reaction of the nationalist Hindus. 8. He described Indira Gandhi as the only leader who could keep the country united and on the killing of such a great leader such killings could not be avoided. 9. Rajiv Gandhi who succeeded Mrs. Gandhi as the Prime Minister of India and justified the nation- wide killings of Sikhs by saying, “When a huge tree falls there are always tremors felt”, was lauded and blessed by Nana Deshmukh at the end of the document. 10. Shockingly, the massacre of Sikhs was being equated with the attacks on the RSS cadres after the killing of Gandhiji and we find Deshmukh advising Sikhs to suffer silently. Everybody knows that the killing of Gandhiji was inspired by the RSS and the Hindutva Ideology whereas the common innocent Sikhs had nothing to do with the murder of Mrs. Indira Gandhi. 11. There was not a single sentence in the Deshmukh document demanding, from the then Congress Government at the Centre, remedial measures for controlling the violence against the minority community. Mind this, that Deshmukh circulated this document on November 8, 1984, and from October 31 to this date Sikhs were left alone to face the killing gangs. In fact November 5-10 was the period when the maximum killings of Sikhs took place. Deshmukh was just not bothered about all this. Deshmukh document did not happen in isolation. It represented the real RSS attitude towards Sikh genocide of 1984. The RSS is very fond of circulating publicity material, especially photographs of its khaki shorts- clad cadres doing social work. For the 1984 violence they have none. In fact, Deshmukh’s article also made no mention of the RSS cadres going to the rescue of Sikhs under siege. This shows up the real intentions of the RSS during the genocide. There is not a single sentence in the Deshmukh document demanding, from the then Congress Government at the Centre, remedial measures for controlling the violence against the minority community. Importantly, Deshmukh circulated this document on November 8, 1984, and from October 31 to this date Sikhs were left alone to face the killing gangs. George Fernandes while making this document public in 1984 wrote that it showed ‘Indira Congress-RSS collusion’. Nanavati Commission must investigate whether this collusion was confined to political sphere or went beyond to killing fields. The Deshmukh document is reproduced below. It is translated here from Hindi [parts of the document have been underlined for emphasis]: MOMENTS OF SOUL SEARCHING Indira Gandhi ultimately did secure a permanent place at the doorstep of history as a great martyr. With her dynamism borne out of her fearlessness and dexterity, she was able to take the country forward like a colossus for over a decade and was able to build an opinion that she alone understood the realities of the country, that she alone had the ability to run the decadent political system of our corrupt and divided society, and probably that she alone could keep the country united. She was a great lady and her death as a brave leader had added to her greatness. She was killed by a person in whom she kept faith despite several complaints. Such an influential and busy personality was killed by a person who had the duty to protect her person. This act came as a blow not only to her admirers in the country and the world but also her critics. This cowardly and treacherous act of killing not only ended the life of a great leader but also killed, in the name of the Panth, the mutual faith of humanity. Explosion of sudden arson and violent hysteria throughout the country was probably a direction-less and improper expression of the hurt, anger and feeling of loss of her followers. Lakhs of her followers used to see her as the only defender, powerful protector, and a symbol of united India. It is a different matter whether this is right or wrong. For these innocent and uninformed followers, the treacherous murder of Indira Gandhi was the tragic culmination of the poisonous campaign of separatism, antagonism and violence conducted over the previous three years in which hundreds of innocents had to lose their invaluable lives and the sanctity of religious places was destroyed. This campaign assumed an ominous pace after the painful army action in June which, in the eyes of most of the people of the country, had become necessary to protect the sanctity of the religious places. Barring a few exceptions, the Sikh community observed silence for a long time on the barbaric massacres and heinous killings of innocent people, but they condemned the long-pending army action with anger and dangerous explosiveness. The country was stunned at their attitude. The army action was compared to the “gallu ghara” action of Ahmed Shah Abdali in 1762 to desecrate the Harmandir Sahib. Without going into the objectives of the two incidents, Mrs. Gandhi was pushed into the category of Ahmed Shah Abdali. She was termed the enemy of the Sikh panth and big prizes were announced on her head. On the other hand Bhindrawale who was guilty of heinous crimes against humanity in the name of religion was hailed as a martyr. Open display of such feelings in different parts of the country and abroad played a special role in increasing the distrust and alienation between the Sikhs and the rest of Indians. In the background of this distrust and alienation, stunned and bewildered people accepted the validity of the rumours of celebrations by the Sikhs at the heinous murder of Indira Gandhi by her Sikh bodyguards in retaliation of the army action. Of these the most hurting explanation was that of Giani Kripal Singh who being the Head Granthi considered himself to be the sole spokesman of the Sikh community. He said that he expressed no sorrow at the death of Indira Gandhi. This statement added fuel to the fire of boiling anger. No immediate and natural condemnation of this despicable statement by an important leader came from responsible Sikh leaders, intellectuals or organization. Therefore the already angered common and unimaginative people took it as correct that the Sikhs celebrated the death of Indira Gandhi. Because of this belief, selfish elements could succeed in making the common people become violent against the hapless Sikhs. This was a most explosive situation which needed utmost patience and skilful conduct on behalf of our Sikh brothers. I am saying this, being a life member of the RSS, because on January 30, 1948 a Hindu fanatic, who was a Marathi and had no relation with the RSS, rather was a bitter critic of the Sangh, committed unfortunate killing of Mahatma Gandhi. On this occasion we also suffered the sudden eruption of hysteria, loot and atrocities of misdirected people. We ourselves saw how selfish elements who were well acquainted with this incident, deliberately declared a murderer to be a member of the RSS and also spread the rumour that the RSS people were celebrating throughout the country death of Mahatma Gandhi, and thus they succeeded in diverting the love and the feeling of loss and hurt in the hearts of people for Gandhi. Such feelings were spread against Swayamsewaks and their families, particularly in Mahrashtra. Having gone through such experiences myself, I can understand the strong reaction and feeling of innocent Sikh brothers who became of victims of sudden eruption of people’s violent hysteria. In fact, I would like to condemn in strongest words the inhuman barbarity and cruelty on Sikh brothers in Delhi and elsewhere. I feel proud of all those Hindu neighbours who protected lives and property of troubled Sikh brothers without caring for their lives. Such things one being heard from all over Delhi. These things have practically increased the faith in natural goodness of human behavior and particularly faith in Hindu nature. I am also worried at the Sikh reaction in such delicate and explosive situation. As an activist engaged in national reconstruction and unity for half a century and being a well wisher of Sikh community I am hesitating in saying that if reactive armed action by Sikhs is even partly true then they have not been able to evaluate the situation correctly and comprehensively and as a result could not respond according to the situation. Here I wish to draw the attention of all my countrymen including Sikhs that in a similar difficult situation arising out of murder of Mahatma Gandhi when in the hysteria against the RSS crimes of destruction of property, heinous burning alive of children, inhuman cruelty etc. were being committed and the news was reaching Nagpur from all over India, then the ‘dictator’ of the RSS known as the so-called big private army, the then head of the Sangh late M.S. Golwalkar issued an appeal in Nagpur on February 1, 1948 to the lakhs of armed young followers throughout the country in the following unforgettable words: ‘I direct all my Swayamsewak brothers that despite spread of provocation due to lack of understanding, they should adopt cordial attitude towards all and remember that this mutual distrust and improper hysteria is the result of the love and respect that the whole country has for Mahatma who made the country great in the eyes of the world. We salute such great respected departed soul’. These were not empty words to hide cowardice and helplessness in the hopeless situation. In those life threatening serious moments he proved that every word of his appeal had a meaning. On the evening of February 1, hundreds of Swayamsewaks in Nagpur urged for armed resistance and resisting till the last drop of their blood to stop the probable attack on their leader the same night. And some associates of Guruji told him of a conspiracy against his life and requested to shift his residence to a safe place before the attack, Guruji told them in such a black moment also that if the same people whom he had truly and with full ability, served throughout his life wanted to take his life, then why and for whom he should save his life. Thereafter he cautioned them in stern voice that even if a drop of blood of his countrymen was shed in saving him, then such a life would be useless for him. History is a witness that lakhs of Swayamsewaks spread throughout the country followed this directive word by word. Though they had to digest vulgarities in exchange of their patience and tolerance but there was a faith to give them patience that whatever may happen to them in present condition, history will definitely prove them innocent. I hope that in present difficult situation my Sikh brothers will also show the above-referred patience and tolerance. But I am deeply pained to know that rather than displaying such tolerance and patience at some places they have retaliated against the crowd with arms and played into the hands of such selfish elements who were eager to spread the trouble. I am surprised how a section of our society considered to be most disciplined, organized and religious, adopted such a negative and self-defeating attitude. May be they could not get proper leadership at the moments of such a crisis. Through my scanty study and understanding of Sikh history I consider that such a nonpolitical reaction of Sikhs in moments of such a crisis came from their complete involvement with teachings of love, tolerance and sacrifice of Sikh nature. Warrior nature of Sikh religion was a short time provision against barbarity of foreign Mughals which was taught by tenth Guru. For him Khalsa was a relatively small part of a broad Hindu-Sikh brotherhood and was designed as an armed hand to defend Hindu community and its traditions. Guru Govind Singh laid down for Khalsa followers five KS (Kesh, Kripan, Kangha, Kara and Kachha) and ‘Singh’ in the name of Khalsas. This was a symbol of their being soldiers. But unfortunately today these only are being projected as basic and necessary forms of Sikh religion. I am sorry to say that Sikh intellectuals too have failed to understand that conversion of Sikh religion into Khalsaism is a much later event and this was due to deliberate plan of British imperialists to divide and rule in Punjab. Its aim was to cut the Sikhs off from their Hindu environ. Unfortunately, after independence power hungry politicians kept alive for their own interest the unnaturally born problems of separation and equal existence, and carried forward the game of imperialists to divide and rule by their vote bank politics. This improper equating of Sikhs with militant Khalsaism is not only the basic root of separatist tendencies in some parts of Sikh community, but it also raised militancy and faith in the power of weapons to the level of religious worship. This religious worship gave rise to terrorist movement like Babbar Khalsa in the second decade and recently Indira Gandhi was killed as a result of terrorist wave under the leadership of Bhindrawale and a long ‘hit list’ is yet to be executed. I used to imagine that Sikh community has freed itself totally from illiteracy, ignorance, frustration and defeatism in which it was in the fifth decade of 19th century after losing its freedom and which was exploited by cunning British imperialists and selfish Sikh elites for their selfish interests. It is clear that in eighth decade Sikhs adorning the places of high responsibility represent highly educated, laborious, vigilant, relatively rich, enlightened and active section of Indian society in every walk of life. In nineteenth century their experiences and vision was limited to the boundaries of the then Punjab but today they are spread not only throughout India but throughout the world, and they are in a situation to directly know the conspiracies of big powers which are being hatched against independent and united India rising strongly in the world. In such an advantageous situation they should know their historical development as an integral part of India. Such a revaluation of history will give them the opportunity to see many wrong formulations of their own religion and past which has been systematically drilled into their brains by wrong and distorted historical writings by British administrators and intellectuals about nature and development of their religion. Such an attempt will take them to their real roots. This is the time that our Sikh brothers should search their hearts so that they can get rid of the false description inserted by British imperialists and power greedy opportunist people into their basic religious nature. Removal of such false descriptions is necessary to bridge the gulf of distrust and alienation between two communities of similar destiny, nature and similar traditions. I am afraid that without such a self-introspection and revaluation of history they would not be able to live with peace among themselves and with other countrymen. A disinterested analysis of their own enlightened interests will be enough to make them understand that their fate is indivisibly linked with the destiny of India. Such an understanding will save them from falling prey to the disruptive and destructive interests of foreign powers. I disbelieve (sic) that my Sikh brothers will accept the cautious words of spiritual expression of a well-wisher. Lastly, it is not to deny the truth that sudden removal of Indira Gandhi from Indian political scene has created a dangerous void in the Indian common life. But India has always displayed a characteristic inner strength in the moments of such crisis and uncertainty. According to our traditions, responsibility of power has been placed on the inexperienced shoulders of relatively young person in a lively and peaceful manner. It will be hasty to judge the potentialities of his leadership at this time. We should give him some time to show his ability. On such challenging juncture of the country, in the meanwhile he is entitled to get full cooperation and sympathy from the countrymen, though they may belong to any language, religion, caste or political belief. In the capacity of a nonpolitical constructive worker I only hope and pray that God bless him with more mature, balanced, inner strength and ability to give an impartial Govt. to the people so that he can take the country to real prosperous unity and glory. Guru Nanak Divas November 8, 1984 Nana Deshmukh From kmvenuannur at gmail.com Tue Apr 14 21:01:18 2009 From: kmvenuannur at gmail.com (Venugopalan K M) Date: Tue, 14 Apr 2009 21:01:18 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] The capitalist crisis and the return of history By David North (fwded Excerpts) Message-ID: <1f9180970904140831k3fd17e4du8f3d65f75b011f7b@mail.gmail.com> - - "http://www.wsws.org/articles/2009/mar2009/dnor-m26.shtml The capitalist crisis and the return of history By David North 26 March 2009 ."...56. The history of all hitherto existing society," wrote Marx and Engels in 1847, "is the history of class struggle." Underlying all the claims that Marxism had been refuted and that the egalitarian aspirations of socialism were irrelevant to the modern world, was the complacent belief that the "class struggle" belonged to the past. Ironically, the official dismissal of class struggle occurred under conditions in which the ruling class pursued (and continues to pursue) its own interests relentlessly. 57. The one undoubtedly positive feature of the economic crisis is that it is laying bare the real social relations of modern capitalist society, exposing the irreconcilable conflict between the interests of the working class and the capitalist aristocracy, and, therefore, preparing the ground for the resurgence of the working class and the resumption of open class struggle on a scale that will eclipse by far the battles of the 1930s. The American working class is being drawn into an international maelstrom of revolutionary class struggle. It is in this sense that the world crisis has set the stage for the "return of history. -- http://venukm.blogspot.com/ From pawan.durani at gmail.com Tue Apr 14 21:18:19 2009 From: pawan.durani at gmail.com (Pawan Durani) Date: Tue, 14 Apr 2009 21:18:19 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] =?windows-1252?q?Minority_Rights_Violated_in_Pakist?= =?windows-1252?q?an=85=85=85=85=85=85?= Message-ID: <6b79f1a70904140848t64b380a4wd7c4b0715bb3815b@mail.gmail.com> Increasing incidents of kidnapping of Hindu community members and “conversion” have caused concern in Sindh. Approximately 30 to 35 minority members had been kidnapped; one of them was killed. Seven are still believed to be in the custody of abductors. Around 18 Hindu girls had been converted to Islam; one of them was reportedly killed this year. Pls visit below link for complete details http://alertpak.wordpress.com/2009/04/11/plot-of-persecution-upon-hindus-in-pakistan/ From kauladityaraj at gmail.com Tue Apr 14 21:22:58 2009 From: kauladityaraj at gmail.com (Aditya Raj Kaul) Date: Tue, 14 Apr 2009 21:22:58 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Teesta Setalvad cooked up macabre tales on Gujarat Riots : SIT Message-ID: <6353c690904140852p23812fa8v9e385fd53ff22ec6@mail.gmail.com> NGOs, Teesta spiced up Gujarat riot incidents: SITThe Times of India 14 Apr 2009, 1213 hrs IST, Dhananjay Mahapatra, TNN NEW DELHI: The Special Investigation Team responsible for the arrests of those accused in Gujarat riotshas severely censured NGOs and social activist Teesta Setalvad who campaigned for the riot victims. In a significant development, the SIT led by former CBI director R K Raghavan told the Supreme Courton Monday that the celebrated rights activist cooked up macabre tales of wanton killings. Many incidents of killings and violence were cooked up, false charges were levelled against then police chief P C Pandey and false witnesses were tutored to give evidence about imaginary incidents, the SIT said in a report submitted before a Bench comprising Justices Arijit Pasayat, P Sathasivam and Aftab Alam. The SIT said it had been alleged in the Gulbarg Society case that Pandey, instead of taking measures to protect people facing the wrath of rioteers, was helping the mob. The truth was that he was helping with hospitalisation of riot victims and making arrangements for police bandobast, Gujarat counsel, senior advocate Mukul Rohtagi, said quoting from the SIT report. Rohtagi also said that 22 witnesses, who had submitted identical affidavitsbefore various courts relating to riot incidents, were questioned by the SIT which found that they had been tutored and handed over the affidavits by Setalvad and that they had not actually witnessed the riot incidents. The SIT also found no truth in the following incidents widely publicised by the NGOs: * A pregnant Muslim woman Kausar Banu was gangraped by a mob, who then gouged out the foetus with sharp weapons * Dumping of dead bodies into a well by rioteers at Naroda Patiya * Police botching up investigation into the killing of British nationals, who were on a visit to Gujarat and unfortunately got caught in the riots Rohtagi said: "On a reading of the report, it is clear that horrendous allegations made by the NGOs were false. Stereotyped affidavits were supplied by a social activist and the allegations made in them were found untrue." Obviously happy with the fresh findings of the SIT which was responsible for the recent arrests of former Gujarat minister Maya Kodanani and VHP leader Jaideep Patel, Rohtagi tried to spruce up the image of the Modi administration, which was castigated in the Best Bakery case by the apex court as "modern day Neros". He was swiftly told by the Bench that but for the SIT, many more accused, who are freshly added, would not have been brought to book. The Bench said there was no room for allegations and counter-allegations at this late stage. "In riot cases, the more the delay, there is likelihood of falsity creeping in. So, there should be a designated court to fast track the trials. Riot cases should be given priority because feelings run high having a cascading effect," it said and asked for suggestions from the Gujarat government, Centre, NGOs and amicus curiae Harish Salve, who said the time had come for the apex court to lift the stay on trials into several post-Godhra riot cases. While additional solicitorgeneral Gopal Subramaniam agreed with the court that public prosecutors should be selected in consultation with Raghavan, counsel Indira Jaising said there should be a complete regime for protection of witnesses as the same government, which was accused of engineering the riots, was in power now. Salve said that he would consult Raghavan and let the court know about a witness protection system for post-Godhra riot cases. The court asked the parties to submit their suggestions within a week. dhananjay.mahapatra at timesgroup.com From pawan.durani at gmail.com Tue Apr 14 21:29:28 2009 From: pawan.durani at gmail.com (Pawan Durani) Date: Tue, 14 Apr 2009 21:29:28 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Teesta Setalvad cooked up macabre tales on Gujarat Riots : SIT In-Reply-To: <6353c690904140852p23812fa8v9e385fd53ff22ec6@mail.gmail.com> References: <6353c690904140852p23812fa8v9e385fd53ff22ec6@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <6b79f1a70904140859p37f5acabi345fd2fe5ba63361@mail.gmail.com> Aditya : What is new in this ? Teesta was always in doubt ! On Tue, Apr 14, 2009 at 9:22 PM, Aditya Raj Kaul wrote: > NGOs, Teesta spiced up Gujarat riot incidents: SITThe Times of India > 14 Apr 2009, 1213 hrs IST, Dhananjay Mahapatra, TNN > > > NEW DELHI: The Special Investigation Team responsible for the arrests of > those accused in Gujarat > riots< > http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/India/NGOs-spiced-up-Gujarat-riot-cases/articleshow/4396986.cms# > >has > severely censured NGOs and social > activist Teesta Setalvad who campaigned for the riot victims. > > In a significant development, the SIT led by former CBI director R K > Raghavan told the Supreme > Court< > http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/India/NGOs-spiced-up-Gujarat-riot-cases/articleshow/4396986.cms# > >on > Monday that the celebrated rights activist cooked up macabre tales of > wanton killings. > > Many incidents of killings and violence were cooked up, false charges were > levelled against then police chief P C Pandey and false witnesses were > tutored to give evidence about imaginary incidents, the SIT said in a > report > submitted before a Bench comprising Justices Arijit Pasayat, P Sathasivam > and Aftab Alam. > > The SIT said it had been alleged in the Gulbarg Society case that Pandey, > instead of taking measures to protect people facing the wrath of rioteers, > was helping the mob. The truth was that he was helping with hospitalisation > of riot victims and making arrangements for police bandobast, Gujarat > counsel, senior advocate Mukul Rohtagi, said quoting from the SIT report. > > Rohtagi also said that 22 witnesses, who had submitted identical > affidavits< > http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/India/NGOs-spiced-up-Gujarat-riot-cases/articleshow/4396986.cms# > >before > various courts relating to riot incidents, were questioned by the SIT > which found that they had been tutored and handed over the affidavits by > Setalvad and that they had not actually witnessed the riot incidents. > > The SIT also found no truth in the following incidents widely publicised by > the NGOs: > > * A pregnant Muslim woman Kausar Banu was gangraped by a mob, who then > gouged out the foetus with sharp weapons > > * Dumping of dead bodies into a well by rioteers at Naroda Patiya > > * Police botching up investigation into the killing of British nationals, > who were on a visit to Gujarat and unfortunately got caught in the riots > > Rohtagi said: "On a reading of the report, it is clear that horrendous > allegations made by the NGOs were false. Stereotyped affidavits were > supplied by a social activist and the allegations made in them were found > untrue." > > Obviously happy with the fresh findings of the SIT which was responsible > for > the recent arrests of former Gujarat minister Maya Kodanani and VHP leader > Jaideep Patel, Rohtagi tried to spruce up the image of the Modi > administration, which was castigated in the Best Bakery case by the apex > court as "modern day Neros". He was swiftly told by the Bench that but for > the SIT, many more accused, who are freshly added, would not have been > brought to book< > http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/India/NGOs-spiced-up-Gujarat-riot-cases/articleshow/4396986.cms# > >. > > > The Bench said there was no room for allegations and counter-allegations at > this late stage. "In riot cases, the more the delay, there is likelihood of > falsity creeping in. So, there should be a designated court to fast track > the trials. Riot cases should be given priority because feelings run high > having a cascading effect," it said and asked for suggestions from the > Gujarat government, Centre, NGOs and amicus curiae Harish Salve, who said > the time had come for the apex court to lift the stay on trials into > several > post-Godhra riot cases. > > While additional > solicitor< > http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/India/NGOs-spiced-up-Gujarat-riot-cases/articleshow/4396986.cms# > >general > Gopal Subramaniam agreed with the court that public prosecutors > should be selected in consultation with Raghavan, counsel Indira Jaising > said there should be a complete regime for protection of witnesses as the > same government, which was accused of engineering the riots, was in power > now. > > Salve said that he would consult Raghavan and let the court know about a > witness protection system for post-Godhra riot cases. The court asked the > parties to submit their suggestions within a week. > > dhananjay.mahapatra at timesgroup.com > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > subscribe in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> From indersalim at gmail.com Tue Apr 14 21:41:29 2009 From: indersalim at gmail.com (Inder Salim) Date: Tue, 14 Apr 2009 21:41:29 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Teesta Setalvad cooked up macabre tales on Gujarat Riots : SIT In-Reply-To: <6353c690904140852p23812fa8v9e385fd53ff22ec6@mail.gmail.com> References: <6353c690904140852p23812fa8v9e385fd53ff22ec6@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <47e122a70904140911o4c333a15u1f7d15561f7d27c6@mail.gmail.com> may be Gujarat Riots never happened, may be media cooked the stories of people being killed mercilessly, On Tue, Apr 14, 2009 at 9:22 PM, Aditya Raj Kaul wrote: > NGOs, Teesta spiced up Gujarat riot incidents: SITThe Times of India > 14 Apr 2009, 1213 hrs IST, Dhananjay Mahapatra, TNN > > > NEW DELHI: The Special Investigation Team responsible for the arrests of > those accused in Gujarat > riotshas > severely censured NGOs and social > activist Teesta Setalvad who campaigned for the riot victims. > > In a significant development, the SIT led by former CBI director R K > Raghavan told the Supreme > Courton > Monday that the celebrated rights activist cooked up macabre tales of > wanton killings. > > Many incidents of killings and violence were cooked up, false charges were > levelled against then police chief P C Pandey and false witnesses were > tutored to give evidence about imaginary incidents, the SIT said in a report > submitted before a Bench comprising Justices Arijit Pasayat, P Sathasivam > and Aftab Alam. > > The SIT said it had been alleged in the Gulbarg Society case that Pandey, > instead of taking measures to protect people facing the wrath of rioteers, > was helping the mob. The truth was that he was helping with hospitalisation > of riot victims and making arrangements for police bandobast, Gujarat > counsel, senior advocate Mukul Rohtagi, said quoting from the SIT report. > > Rohtagi also said that 22 witnesses, who had submitted identical > affidavitsbefore > various courts relating to riot incidents, were questioned by the SIT > which found that they had been tutored and handed over the affidavits by > Setalvad and that they had not actually witnessed the riot incidents. > > The SIT also found no truth in the following incidents widely publicised by > the NGOs: > > * A pregnant Muslim woman Kausar Banu was gangraped by a mob, who then > gouged out the foetus with sharp weapons > > * Dumping of dead bodies into a well by rioteers at Naroda Patiya > > * Police botching up investigation into the killing of British nationals, > who were on a visit to Gujarat and unfortunately got caught in the riots > > Rohtagi said: "On a reading of the report, it is clear that horrendous > allegations made by the NGOs were false. Stereotyped affidavits were > supplied by a social activist and the allegations made in them were found > untrue." > > Obviously happy with the fresh findings of the SIT which was responsible for > the recent arrests of former Gujarat minister Maya Kodanani and VHP leader > Jaideep Patel, Rohtagi tried to spruce up the image of the Modi > administration, which was castigated in the Best Bakery case by the apex > court as "modern day Neros". He was swiftly told by the Bench that but for > the SIT, many more accused, who are freshly added, would not have been > brought to book. > > > The Bench said there was no room for allegations and counter-allegations at > this late stage. "In riot cases, the more the delay, there is likelihood of > falsity creeping in. So, there should be a designated court to fast track > the trials. Riot cases should be given priority because feelings run high > having a cascading effect," it said and asked for suggestions from the > Gujarat government, Centre, NGOs and amicus curiae Harish Salve, who said > the time had come for the apex court to lift the stay on trials into several > post-Godhra riot cases. > > While additional > solicitorgeneral > Gopal Subramaniam agreed with the court that public prosecutors > should be selected in consultation with Raghavan, counsel Indira Jaising > said there should be a complete regime for protection of witnesses as the > same government, which was accused of engineering the riots, was in power > now. > > Salve said that he would consult Raghavan and let the court know about a > witness protection system for post-Godhra riot cases. The court asked the > parties to submit their suggestions within a week. > > dhananjay.mahapatra at timesgroup.com > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with subscribe in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> -- http://indersalim.livejournal.com From kauladityaraj at gmail.com Tue Apr 14 21:47:53 2009 From: kauladityaraj at gmail.com (Aditya Raj Kaul) Date: Tue, 14 Apr 2009 21:47:53 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Teesta Setalvad cooked up macabre tales on Gujarat Riots : SIT In-Reply-To: <47e122a70904140911o4c333a15u1f7d15561f7d27c6@mail.gmail.com> References: <6353c690904140852p23812fa8v9e385fd53ff22ec6@mail.gmail.com> <47e122a70904140911o4c333a15u1f7d15561f7d27c6@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <6353c690904140917v66a6cb14wfa7fd0bb87aa8efa@mail.gmail.com> maybe Inder Salim never existed.. On Tue, Apr 14, 2009 at 9:41 PM, Inder Salim wrote: > may be Gujarat Riots never happened, may be media cooked the stories > of people being killed mercilessly, > > > > On Tue, Apr 14, 2009 at 9:22 PM, Aditya Raj Kaul > wrote: > > NGOs, Teesta spiced up Gujarat riot incidents: SITThe Times of India > > 14 Apr 2009, 1213 hrs IST, Dhananjay Mahapatra, TNN > > > > > > NEW DELHI: The Special Investigation Team responsible for the arrests of > > those accused in Gujarat > > riots< > http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/India/NGOs-spiced-up-Gujarat-riot-cases/articleshow/4396986.cms# > >has > > severely censured NGOs and social > > activist Teesta Setalvad who campaigned for the riot victims. > > > > In a significant development, the SIT led by former CBI director R K > > Raghavan told the Supreme > > Court< > http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/India/NGOs-spiced-up-Gujarat-riot-cases/articleshow/4396986.cms# > >on > > Monday that the celebrated rights activist cooked up macabre tales of > > wanton killings. > > > > Many incidents of killings and violence were cooked up, false charges > were > > levelled against then police chief P C Pandey and false witnesses were > > tutored to give evidence about imaginary incidents, the SIT said in a > report > > submitted before a Bench comprising Justices Arijit Pasayat, P Sathasivam > > and Aftab Alam. > > > > The SIT said it had been alleged in the Gulbarg Society case that Pandey, > > instead of taking measures to protect people facing the wrath of > rioteers, > > was helping the mob. The truth was that he was helping with > hospitalisation > > of riot victims and making arrangements for police bandobast, Gujarat > > counsel, senior advocate Mukul Rohtagi, said quoting from the SIT report. > > > > Rohtagi also said that 22 witnesses, who had submitted identical > > affidavits< > http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/India/NGOs-spiced-up-Gujarat-riot-cases/articleshow/4396986.cms# > >before > > various courts relating to riot incidents, were questioned by the SIT > > which found that they had been tutored and handed over the affidavits by > > Setalvad and that they had not actually witnessed the riot incidents. > > > > The SIT also found no truth in the following incidents widely publicised > by > > the NGOs: > > > > * A pregnant Muslim woman Kausar Banu was gangraped by a mob, who then > > gouged out the foetus with sharp weapons > > > > * Dumping of dead bodies into a well by rioteers at Naroda Patiya > > > > * Police botching up investigation into the killing of British nationals, > > who were on a visit to Gujarat and unfortunately got caught in the riots > > > > Rohtagi said: "On a reading of the report, it is clear that horrendous > > allegations made by the NGOs were false. Stereotyped affidavits were > > supplied by a social activist and the allegations made in them were found > > untrue." > > > > Obviously happy with the fresh findings of the SIT which was responsible > for > > the recent arrests of former Gujarat minister Maya Kodanani and VHP > leader > > Jaideep Patel, Rohtagi tried to spruce up the image of the Modi > > administration, which was castigated in the Best Bakery case by the apex > > court as "modern day Neros". He was swiftly told by the Bench that but > for > > the SIT, many more accused, who are freshly added, would not have been > > brought to book< > http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/India/NGOs-spiced-up-Gujarat-riot-cases/articleshow/4396986.cms# > >. > > > > > > The Bench said there was no room for allegations and counter-allegations > at > > this late stage. "In riot cases, the more the delay, there is likelihood > of > > falsity creeping in. So, there should be a designated court to fast track > > the trials. Riot cases should be given priority because feelings run high > > having a cascading effect," it said and asked for suggestions from the > > Gujarat government, Centre, NGOs and amicus curiae Harish Salve, who said > > the time had come for the apex court to lift the stay on trials into > several > > post-Godhra riot cases. > > > > While additional > > solicitor< > http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/India/NGOs-spiced-up-Gujarat-riot-cases/articleshow/4396986.cms# > >general > > Gopal Subramaniam agreed with the court that public prosecutors > > should be selected in consultation with Raghavan, counsel Indira Jaising > > said there should be a complete regime for protection of witnesses as the > > same government, which was accused of engineering the riots, was in power > > now. > > > > Salve said that he would consult Raghavan and let the court know about a > > witness protection system for post-Godhra riot cases. The court asked the > > parties to submit their suggestions within a week. > > > > dhananjay.mahapatra at timesgroup.com > > _________________________________________ > > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > > Critiques & Collaborations > > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > subscribe in the subject header. > > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> > > > > -- > > http://indersalim.livejournal.com > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > subscribe in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> > From delhi.yunus at gmail.com Tue Apr 14 21:49:45 2009 From: delhi.yunus at gmail.com (Syed Yunus) Date: Tue, 14 Apr 2009 21:49:45 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Teesta Setalvad cooked up macabre tales on Gujarat Riots : SIT In-Reply-To: <47e122a70904140911o4c333a15u1f7d15561f7d27c6@mail.gmail.com> References: <6353c690904140852p23812fa8v9e385fd53ff22ec6@mail.gmail.com> <47e122a70904140911o4c333a15u1f7d15561f7d27c6@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: State is deaf, justice is blind, ability to see truth is just an state of mind. On 4/14/09, Inder Salim wrote: > > may be Gujarat Riots never happened, may be media cooked the stories > of people being killed mercilessly, > > > > On Tue, Apr 14, 2009 at 9:22 PM, Aditya Raj Kaul > wrote: > > NGOs, Teesta spiced up Gujarat riot incidents: SITThe Times of India > > 14 Apr 2009, 1213 hrs IST, Dhananjay Mahapatra, TNN > > > > > > NEW DELHI: The Special Investigation Team responsible for the arrests of > > those accused in Gujarat > > riots< > http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/India/NGOs-spiced-up-Gujarat-riot-cases/articleshow/4396986.cms# > >has > > severely censured NGOs and social > > activist Teesta Setalvad who campaigned for the riot victims. > > > > In a significant development, the SIT led by former CBI director R K > > Raghavan told the Supreme > > Court< > http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/India/NGOs-spiced-up-Gujarat-riot-cases/articleshow/4396986.cms# > >on > > Monday that the celebrated rights activist cooked up macabre tales of > > wanton killings. > > > > Many incidents of killings and violence were cooked up, false charges > were > > levelled against then police chief P C Pandey and false witnesses were > > tutored to give evidence about imaginary incidents, the SIT said in a > report > > submitted before a Bench comprising Justices Arijit Pasayat, P Sathasivam > > and Aftab Alam. > > > > The SIT said it had been alleged in the Gulbarg Society case that Pandey, > > instead of taking measures to protect people facing the wrath of > rioteers, > > was helping the mob. The truth was that he was helping with > hospitalisation > > of riot victims and making arrangements for police bandobast, Gujarat > > counsel, senior advocate Mukul Rohtagi, said quoting from the SIT report. > > > > Rohtagi also said that 22 witnesses, who had submitted identical > > affidavits< > http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/India/NGOs-spiced-up-Gujarat-riot-cases/articleshow/4396986.cms# > >before > > various courts relating to riot incidents, were questioned by the SIT > > which found that they had been tutored and handed over the affidavits by > > Setalvad and that they had not actually witnessed the riot incidents. > > > > The SIT also found no truth in the following incidents widely publicised > by > > the NGOs: > > > > * A pregnant Muslim woman Kausar Banu was gangraped by a mob, who then > > gouged out the foetus with sharp weapons > > > > * Dumping of dead bodies into a well by rioteers at Naroda Patiya > > > > * Police botching up investigation into the killing of British nationals, > > who were on a visit to Gujarat and unfortunately got caught in the riots > > > > Rohtagi said: "On a reading of the report, it is clear that horrendous > > allegations made by the NGOs were false. Stereotyped affidavits were > > supplied by a social activist and the allegations made in them were found > > untrue." > > > > Obviously happy with the fresh findings of the SIT which was responsible > for > > the recent arrests of former Gujarat minister Maya Kodanani and VHP > leader > > Jaideep Patel, Rohtagi tried to spruce up the image of the Modi > > administration, which was castigated in the Best Bakery case by the apex > > court as "modern day Neros". He was swiftly told by the Bench that but > for > > the SIT, many more accused, who are freshly added, would not have been > > brought to book< > http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/India/NGOs-spiced-up-Gujarat-riot-cases/articleshow/4396986.cms# > >. > > > > > > The Bench said there was no room for allegations and counter-allegations > at > > this late stage. "In riot cases, the more the delay, there is likelihood > of > > falsity creeping in. So, there should be a designated court to fast track > > the trials. Riot cases should be given priority because feelings run high > > having a cascading effect," it said and asked for suggestions from the > > Gujarat government, Centre, NGOs and amicus curiae Harish Salve, who said > > the time had come for the apex court to lift the stay on trials into > several > > post-Godhra riot cases. > > > > While additional > > solicitor< > http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/India/NGOs-spiced-up-Gujarat-riot-cases/articleshow/4396986.cms# > >general > > Gopal Subramaniam agreed with the court that public prosecutors > > should be selected in consultation with Raghavan, counsel Indira Jaising > > said there should be a complete regime for protection of witnesses as the > > same government, which was accused of engineering the riots, was in power > > now. > > > > Salve said that he would consult Raghavan and let the court know about a > > witness protection system for post-Godhra riot cases. The court asked the > > parties to submit their suggestions within a week. > > > > dhananjay.mahapatra at timesgroup.com > > _________________________________________ > > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > > Critiques & Collaborations > > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > subscribe in the subject header. > > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> > > > > -- > > http://indersalim.livejournal.com > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > subscribe in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> -- Change is the only constant in life ! From kmvenuannur at gmail.com Tue Apr 14 22:56:07 2009 From: kmvenuannur at gmail.com (Venugopalan K M) Date: Tue, 14 Apr 2009 22:56:07 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Teesta Setalvad cooked up macabre tales on Gujarat Riots : SIT In-Reply-To: <6353c690904140852p23812fa8v9e385fd53ff22ec6@mail.gmail.com> References: <6353c690904140852p23812fa8v9e385fd53ff22ec6@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <1f9180970904141026h3a53f3f0m4f424e24fcadc756@mail.gmail.com> What is so great in police doing its work? What about the dreaded Tehelka exposes ,the verbal and visual accounts of criminals masqueraded as guardians of Hindus and wilful partners of the powers that be in carrying out macabre killings and rapes? What about that part played by Teesta which actually had terrible positive impact on the administration? What about the part played by a senior IAS Officer who took voluntary retirement subsequent to the extremely partisan ways of propagating hate by the state administration? What would you say about the role of Lyngdho as the Chief Election Commissioner that time? Please don't be under the impression that people are stupid enough to buy this kind of stories as in the post. These appear to have a particular mission of taking the stories too far by employing character assassination and such things. You will simply fail..and people are getting more ,more these representatives of the police establishment open their mouths about what actually happened! Regards, Tue, Apr 14, 2009 at 9:22 PM, Aditya Raj Kaul wrote: > NGOs, Teesta spiced up Gujarat riot incidents: SITThe Times of India > 14 Apr 2009, 1213 hrs IST, Dhananjay Mahapatra, TNN > > > NEW DELHI: The Special Investigation Team responsible for the arrests of > those accused in Gujarat > riots< > http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/India/NGOs-spiced-up-Gujarat-riot-cases/articleshow/4396986.cms# > >has > severely censured NGOs and social > activist Teesta Setalvad who campaigned for the riot victims. > > In a significant development, the SIT led by former CBI director R K > Raghavan told the Supreme > Court< > http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/India/NGOs-spiced-up-Gujarat-riot-cases/articleshow/4396986.cms# > >on > Monday that the celebrated rights activist cooked up macabre tales of > wanton killings. > > Many incidents of killings and violence were cooked up, false charges were > levelled against then police chief P C Pandey and false witnesses were > tutored to give evidence about imaginary incidents, the SIT said in a > report > submitted before a Bench comprising Justices Arijit Pasayat, P Sathasivam > and Aftab Alam. > > The SIT said it had been alleged in the Gulbarg Society case that Pandey, > instead of taking measures to protect people facing the wrath of rioteers, > was helping the mob. The truth was that he was helping with hospitalisation > of riot victims and making arrangements for police bandobast, Gujarat > counsel, senior advocate Mukul Rohtagi, said quoting from the SIT report. > > Rohtagi also said that 22 witnesses, who had submitted identical > affidavits< > http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/India/NGOs-spiced-up-Gujarat-riot-cases/articleshow/4396986.cms# > >before > various courts relating to riot incidents, were questioned by the SIT > which found that they had been tutored and handed over the affidavits by > Setalvad and that they had not actually witnessed the riot incidents. > > The SIT also found no truth in the following incidents widely publicised by > the NGOs: > > * A pregnant Muslim woman Kausar Banu was gangraped by a mob, who then > gouged out the foetus with sharp weapons > > * Dumping of dead bodies into a well by rioteers at Naroda Patiya > > * Police botching up investigation into the killing of British nationals, > who were on a visit to Gujarat and unfortunately got caught in the riots > > Rohtagi said: "On a reading of the report, it is clear that horrendous > allegations made by the NGOs were false. Stereotyped affidavits were > supplied by a social activist and the allegations made in them were found > untrue." > > Obviously happy with the fresh findings of the SIT which was responsible > for > the recent arrests of former Gujarat minister Maya Kodanani and VHP leader > Jaideep Patel, Rohtagi tried to spruce up the image of the Modi > administration, which was castigated in the Best Bakery case by the apex > court as "modern day Neros". He was swiftly told by the Bench that but for > the SIT, many more accused, who are freshly added, would not have been > brought to book< > http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/India/NGOs-spiced-up-Gujarat-riot-cases/articleshow/4396986.cms# > >. > > > The Bench said there was no room for allegations and counter-allegations at > this late stage. "In riot cases, the more the delay, there is likelihood of > falsity creeping in. So, there should be a designated court to fast track > the trials. Riot cases should be given priority because feelings run high > having a cascading effect," it said and asked for suggestions from the > Gujarat government, Centre, NGOs and amicus curiae Harish Salve, who said > the time had come for the apex court to lift the stay on trials into > several > post-Godhra riot cases. > > While additional > solicitor< > http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/India/NGOs-spiced-up-Gujarat-riot-cases/articleshow/4396986.cms# > >general > Gopal Subramaniam agreed with the court that public prosecutors > should be selected in consultation with Raghavan, counsel Indira Jaising > said there should be a complete regime for protection of witnesses as the > same government, which was accused of engineering the riots, was in power > now. > > Salve said that he would consult Raghavan and let the court know about a > witness protection system for post-Godhra riot cases. The court asked the > parties to submit their suggestions within a week. > > dhananjay.mahapatra at timesgroup.com > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > subscribe in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> -- http://venukm.blogspot.com/ From rakesh.rnbdj at gmail.com Tue Apr 14 23:15:07 2009 From: rakesh.rnbdj at gmail.com (Rakesh Iyer) Date: Tue, 14 Apr 2009 23:15:07 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Teesta Setalvad cooked up macabre tales on Gujarat Riots : SIT In-Reply-To: <1f9180970904141026h3a53f3f0m4f424e24fcadc756@mail.gmail.com> References: <6353c690904140852p23812fa8v9e385fd53ff22ec6@mail.gmail.com> <1f9180970904141026h3a53f3f0m4f424e24fcadc756@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: Dear all The fact of the matter is that even official statistics show that more than 1,000 died in these 'riots', if one were to call them that. However, a riot is not organized but is a spontaneous reaction to an event or a chain of events which took place. This was a well planned genocide, for there were people talking on mobiles directing people to attack at various places, police was sleeping or not functioning, the RAF could not be contacted as telephone lines were cut, and interestingly even many people are registered as missing even now, 7 years after the gory incidents. Every time one talks about these, Godhra is mentioned. Was anybody raped in Godhra? Was anybody taunted in Godhra? Weren't the VHP workers creating problems for other passengers by occupying reserved seats? What were they doing occupying reserved seats while having unreserved tickets for themselves? Why was it so that a certain number of passengers could not be identified days after the incident? Why was no official railway inquiry ordered within 48 hours of the incident by the Railway Ministry, as is often the case when any incident pertaining to this ministry takes place? Nobody answers these questions. Then about avenging Godhra. Even if one were to logically look at it, why should Godhra be avenged in Gujarat? It should be avenged in Godhra only (logically looking from the anguished ones' angle). Why was it required to target Ahmedabad Muslims for what happened in Godhra? Did these Muslims go and do it there? Or did they support their activities? And how are rapes justified as avenging Godhra? If that is the case, then wouldn't a Muslim who lost everything in such 'riots' be justified in avenging it by raping the mother/sister of some member of this forum (including me) just because he/she is a Hindu? Is that right? Teesta Satalvad or no Teesta Satalvad, what is required is punishment of the perpetrators in the strongest terms to set an example before the society that those who indulge in such violence would get what they deserve and shouldn't expect any mercy. It should act as a case of impartial justice delivered in the quickest possible time. And if Godhra accused can be put under POTA, all those involved in such killings anywhere and anytime should be punished under UAPA. I hope that the SIT achieves this to a certain extent, and I would like to look at the report before making any remarks. Newspaper clippings and media have a sense to distort the entire thing, and even a portion or paragraph can be cited to change the context in which the comments were put up. I think the report is confidential as the matter is sub-judice. However, if the report is available, please do inform me (and indeed all of us) for the same. And for me, justice is more important, irrespective of there is Teesta or no Teesta; Pawan Durani or no Pawan Durani; Aditya Raj Kaul or no Aditya Raj Kaul, Rakesh Iyer or no Rakesh Iyer. And as a society, that is the goal we must strive towards, not Ram Mandir/Babri Masjid, not SEZ's or interlinking of rivers or other such faulty schemes, not temples of Modern India or huge dams, but means to improve livelihood of people and securing justice for them. Regards Rakesh From shambhu.rahmat at gmail.com Tue Apr 14 23:23:07 2009 From: shambhu.rahmat at gmail.com (Shambhu Rahmat) Date: Tue, 14 Apr 2009 23:53:07 +0600 Subject: [Reader-list] Who is Sunita Paul & Why Doesn't She Know How To Spell Cochin? Message-ID: http://shadakalo.blogspot.com/2009/04/sunita-paul-international-woman-of.html Sunita Paul: Deaf Dumb Born in an affluent family in Kochin Twice masters (what the hell is that?) A Fraud A Plagiarist, and A Liar From anujbhuwania at gmail.com Wed Apr 15 00:11:09 2009 From: anujbhuwania at gmail.com (Anuj Bhuwania) Date: Wed, 15 Apr 2009 00:11:09 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Teesta Setalvad cooked up macabre tales on Gujarat Riots : SIT In-Reply-To: References: <6353c690904140852p23812fa8v9e385fd53ff22ec6@mail.gmail.com> <1f9180970904141026h3a53f3f0m4f424e24fcadc756@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: Dear all, It is perhaps worth noting that the only newspaper that reported the Court proceedings in such terms, is the Times of India and its sister publication Economic Times. Please find pasted below Teesta Setalvad's rebuttal to this Times of India news report quoted already in the first email posted on this thread. Best, anuj Rebuttal to the Times of India report, dated April 14, 2009: The report in The Times of India, Mumbai edition dated April 14, 2009, reportedly also published prominently in all its other editions titled, ‘NGOs, Teesta spiced up Gujarat riots cases: SIT’ is a clear example of irresponsible reportage. Intentionally or otherwise, the distorted report damages the reputation of a citizens’ group that has been recognized nationally and internationally for working assiduously to ensure justice to the victims of mass violence whether in case of the Gujarat carnage (2002), or the bomb blasts in Mumbai (2006 and 2008) or the communal carnage in Kandhamal district, Orissa (2008), irrespective of the caste or creed of the victims or the perpetrators. “The SIT led by former CBI director R K Raghavan told the Supreme Court on Monday…” reads the opening para of the report. The fact is that neither Sri Raghavan, nor any other SIT member was present at the apex court to “tell” it anything. Sri Dhananjay Mahapatra’s report could only be referring to a contention made in a four page note circulated by Ms Hemantika Wahi for the Gujarat Government. (A copy of the same is annexed). It was not a note prepared by SIT. The report is all the more shocking since Sri Mahapatra was present in the court and could not be unaware of this. The detailed report of SIT submitted to the Supreme Court on March 6, 2007 has not been available for study either to National Human Rights Commission (NHRC), the petitioners in this case, or the Citizens for Justice and Peace (CJP) who have intervened in this critical matter or to any in the media. Any reference to it is hence hearsay and it may amount to contempt of court to write about a report which the Court has specifically not made public. In its written note that the Gujarat state circulated in court yesterday, the state has given its brief comments on the SIT report. In para four of this note the Gujarat government note refers to alleged statements made by some witnesses in the Gulberg case before SIT that name accused other than those named by them in the written statements that were (according to the state of Gujarat) given to them by Teesta Setalvad and advocates. This is the version of the Gujarat state. Besides this, Mukul Rohatgi tried to make a populist speech in court saying that incidents like the Kauser Bano case etc never happened. The Supreme Court disregarded this argument and did not allow Mr.Rohatgi to read anything from the report. The court went on to state that they were not interested in personal allegations and only ensuring that, like in the course of the Zahira Shaikh case, the trials are fair, the truth comes out and the course of justice is served. It is necessary to recalled that in the course of the Best Bakery trial, too, the Gujarat government had tried to divert the court’s attention by engineering charges against Teesta Setalvad, secretary CJP and by implication the NGO. On Setalvad’s application to the apex court for a full fledged inquiry the report of the Registrar of the apex court exonerated Setalvad and the NGO completely. As reported by the rest of the national media, on Monday, ignoring Sri Rohatgi’s bid to side-step the main issues, the three-member bench of the Supreme Court remained focused on the modalities of setting up designated courts for the trial of the accused in the post-Godhra riot cases in Gujarat. Instead of highlighting the court proceedings, Sri Mahapatra chose to spice up his report focusing not on the deliberations or the intentions of the apex court but to promote the case of the Gujarat government. The moot question is whether or not 2,500 persons were killed in a ghastly perpetrated massacre following the tragic burning alive of 59 persons on the Sabarmati express; whether or not ex parliamentarian Ahsan Jafri was mutilated before being burnt alive, whether the bodies of the missing dead (over 220) have not been found or returned for dignified burial after seven long years? All the national media was witness to this national tragedy. In the interests of fair reportage and to ensure that the reputation of a citizens group committed to equity and justice is not deliberately vitiated before the trials commence, the newspaper should carry this rebuttal in full. A failure to do so will result in the columns of a national newspaper being used to distort facts, shape public perception and seek to influence the outcome of due process of law and justice to the victims of mass murder. (Statement by Citizens for Justice and Peace, Mumbai, April 14, 2009, Mumbai) We wish also that the following issues be highlighted by you in a box though the word length goes over your report. Pertinent issues ignored in the report: * The arrests of minister Dr Maya Kodnani and Dr Jaideep Patel in the past weeks were on the basis of SIT re-investigations. Twelve FIRs filed by witnesses naming these accused in 2002 had been clubbed into a magnum FIR by the Ahmedabad crime branch that had dropped the names of these powerful accused; * The arrests of investigating officer KG Erda in the Gulberg case and of other policemen in the other cases over the past months has meant the claims of witness survivors and legal rights groups, prima facie, are valid; * That this was one of the issues why the apex court has chosen to appoint SIT, the full scale subversion of the process of justice, from the removal of names of accused who’s names appeared in earlier statements simply because they enjoyed political patronage; the appointment of prosecutors with allegiances to the BJP and VHP which meant instead of promoting fair trial they sided with the politically powerful and protected accused; * More pertinently the tragic slaying of pregnant Kauser Bano at Naroda Patiya after slitting her womb was reported in Deccan Herald,(April 17, 2004) and The Indian Express, (March 23,2005) among others apart from finding place in innumerable reports including the one authored by the Concerned Citizens Tribunal-Crimes Against Humanity 2002 headed by two Supreme Court judges, Justices Krishna Iyer and PB Sawant. Similarly the British national case was similarly documented apart from being covered in The Pioneer, March 3, 2002 and The Hindu, April 23, 2002. On Tue, Apr 14, 2009 at 11:15 PM, Rakesh Iyer wrote: > Dear all > > The fact of the matter is that even official statistics show that more than > 1,000 died in these 'riots', if one were to call them that. However, a riot > is not organized but is a spontaneous reaction to an event or a chain of > events which took place. This was a well planned genocide, for there were > people talking on mobiles directing people to attack at various places, > police was sleeping or not functioning, the RAF could not be contacted as > telephone lines were cut, and interestingly even many people are registered > as missing even now, 7 years after the gory incidents. > > Every time one talks about these, Godhra is mentioned. Was anybody raped in > Godhra? Was anybody taunted in Godhra? Weren't the VHP workers creating > problems for other passengers by occupying reserved seats? What were they > doing occupying reserved seats while having unreserved tickets for > themselves? Why was it so that a certain number of passengers could not be > identified days after the incident? Why was no official railway inquiry > ordered within 48 hours of the incident by the Railway Ministry, as is often > the case when any incident pertaining to this ministry takes place? > > Nobody answers these questions. > > Then about avenging Godhra. Even if one were to logically look at it, why > should Godhra be avenged in Gujarat? It should be avenged in Godhra only > (logically looking from the anguished ones' angle). Why was it required to > target Ahmedabad Muslims for what happened in Godhra? Did these Muslims go > and do it there? Or did they support their activities? > > And how are rapes justified as avenging Godhra? If that is the case, then > wouldn't a Muslim who lost everything in such 'riots' be justified in > avenging it by raping the mother/sister of some member of this forum > (including me) just because he/she is a Hindu? Is that right? > > Teesta Satalvad or no Teesta Satalvad, what is required is punishment of the > perpetrators in the strongest terms to set an example before the society > that those who indulge in such violence would get what they deserve and > shouldn't expect any mercy. It should act as a case of impartial justice > delivered in the quickest possible time. And if Godhra accused can be put > under POTA, all those involved in such killings anywhere and anytime should > be punished under UAPA. > > I hope that the SIT achieves this to a certain extent, and I would like to > look at the report before making any remarks. Newspaper clippings and media > have a sense to distort the entire thing, and even a portion or paragraph > can be cited to change the context in which the comments were put up. I > think the report is confidential as the matter is sub-judice. However, if > the report is available, please do inform me (and indeed all of us) for the > same. > > And for me, justice is more important, irrespective of there is Teesta or no > Teesta; Pawan Durani or no Pawan Durani; Aditya Raj Kaul or no Aditya Raj > Kaul, Rakesh Iyer or no Rakesh Iyer. > > And as a society, that is the goal we must strive towards, not Ram > Mandir/Babri Masjid, not SEZ's or interlinking of rivers or other such > faulty schemes, not temples of Modern India or huge dams, but means to > improve livelihood of people and securing justice for them. > > Regards > > Rakesh > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with subscribe in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> From pawan.durani at gmail.com Wed Apr 15 00:56:53 2009 From: pawan.durani at gmail.com (Pawan Durani) Date: Wed, 15 Apr 2009 00:56:53 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Teesta Setalvad cooked up macabre tales on Gujarat Riots : SIT In-Reply-To: References: <6353c690904140852p23812fa8v9e385fd53ff22ec6@mail.gmail.com> <1f9180970904141026h3a53f3f0m4f424e24fcadc756@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <6b79f1a70904141226pe7c05e4k1da7544c57be8aef@mail.gmail.com> An interesting petition i just found on internet ......No comments from my side .....but the petition is worth reading............ http://www.petitiononline.com/ngoi/petition.html To: Supreme Court Of India, CBI (India), Press Council Of India Appeal to maintain the sanctity of India's judicial system To: HON’BLE MR. JUSTICE R.C. LAHOTI, Chief Justice of Supreme Court Of India. SHRI U.S. MISRA, Director CBI HON’BLE MR. JUSTICE K. JAYACHANDRA REDDY, Chairman Press Council of India. As events in the trial of the Best Bakery case unfold, the man on the street looks on in askance where exactly the truth lies. On one side is a much maligned but democratically elected government of Gujarat that is charged and on the other is a highly pampered but suspicious NGO who leads the attack and in the middle is a simple, 20-year old girl. The case pertaining to the Best Bakery massacre has become more of a contrivance to score political points than to execute justice. It is unfortunate that courts all the way to the apex court in India have fallen prey to this political tussle. It is the appeal of the undersigned that restraint is followed in making judgments and the fact be examined that NGOs themselves might have vested interests. Zaheera Sheikh’s allegations against the NGO Citizens for Justice and Peace and its counselor Teesta Setalvad carry criminal ramifications. In her own words Zaheera admitted that she perceived a threat to her life from activist Teesta Setalvad. She further narrated how she was abducted at knifepoint at the behest of Ms. Setalvad. In a rare admission she alleged *"Teesta forced me into changing my earlier deposition. She threatened me with dire consequences if I did not follow her instructions."* For an NGO that belabors endlessly on communal harmony, Ms Setalvad’s approach to the Best Bakery case appears not to be one of conciliation but rooted in widening the communal chasm when one hears Zaheera narrate *“When I asked her what she wanted, she said, 'You have to fight for your community, for which even if you have to tell lies, you'll have to tell lies before court.”* Zaheera Sheikh has also charged Ms Setalvad of holding her captive and threatening her of lynching! One must also note that since her allegation against Ms Setalvad, Zaheera Sheikh has also sought the counsel and protection of National Committee for Minorities (NCM) and The National Commission for Women (NCW). She met with Ms Poornima Advani of the NCW in the week of Nov 8-14 in this connection. Ms Advani it should be recalled has constantly fought for the human rights of those affected by the Gujarat incidents. While, the Gujarat government has been insidiously charged by all and sundry of having coerced Zaheera into her latest volte-face - after her meeting Ms Advani welcomed Zaheera’s stance and rejected allegations of illegal pressure by the Gujarat Govt. She confirmed to the press that *“Zaheera was under no pressure and was doing her own things”.* It must be further noted that allegations of threat against Ms. Setalvad are not just from Zaheera Sheikh alone. A day after Zaheera Sheikh sought police protection from Ms. Setalvad, an accused in the case Dinesh Rajbhar told special judge A M Thipsay that Setalvad had 'threatened' him while being taken out of the court in Mumbai. The court has taken the complaint of Ms. Setalvad’s threat in the words - *"Hum tum sab ko dekh lenge* (We will see you)” - on record. It has been noticed several times that many NGOs in India have been exposed as tax shelters and sophisticated social swindles. It has also been noted that many NGOs do have vested foreign interests whose ultimate interest is what NGOs champion. It is our appeal therefore that the courts, based on the petitions by NGOs whose credentials may be questionable, not execute landmark decisions. In light of the serious allegations the star witness of the Best Bakery has made against the NGO Citizens for Justice and Peace and its forerunner Teesta Setalvad, this becomes very important. The role of the Ms Teesta Setalvad and her interest for state of India are more than dubious. If anything, Ms. Teesta Setalvad is hardly an NGO and driven impetuously against only a certain political ideology. She publishes “Communalism Combat”. Ostensibly a publication for communal harmony, its real purpose and effect appear to be directed at communal polarization. Sabrang Communications (Private) Ltd that she jointly operates with her husband Javed Anand has a history of coordinating several political activities with a common theme: attack democratically elected governments in India, and slander them abroad, and conduct anti-Indian propaganda. We also appeal to the CBI to investigate the funds received by Ms Setalvad and her NGO for political pamphleteering. There have been indications that Sabrang Communications has been soliciting foreign funding giving the address of one SINGH foundation in the United States. In fact per Zaheera Sheikh’s revelation to press persons, Ms. Setalvad even threatened Zaheera with her monetary clout – as Zaheera narrated *"I told Teesta I would lodge a complaint against her with Vadodara police and expose her, but Teesta replied, 'We are very rich and influential. You can't harm us that way.”* Who should we believe? The battle has been drawn out between a very powerful woman who is on the board of several government offices, is in close association with corporate houses, has been felicitated overseas with sundry awards and in defence is a hapless young girl barely out of her teens, bereaved and homeless. Ms Setalvad's loyalties are at best "divided" - she has consistently used a secessionist map of India on her web-site and viciously attacked Indian musicians who asked for equivalent access to Pakistani markets, as offered to Pakistani musicians here. Her current effort at undermining an indigent, inadequately educated girl, barely out of her teens, is avidly supported by Pakistanis and organizations that align themselves with the NDF-ISI nexus. Do we really want such a person and her coterie to affect our judicial system? This petition is also an appeal of the undersigned to the Press Council of India to advise restrain on the astounding one-sidedness of press reporting. Even though Zahira Sheikh’s reputation appears tarnished with her constant about faces, her allegations against Ms. Setalvad must be investigated without prejudice. The press must be cautious in making slanted reports that may be construed as a defense of Ms. Setalvad. While the truth remains muddied, speculation in the press is rife about Zaheera’s character, stories are being made up about greed and letting down her community. For example with little or no corroborating evidence, India’s leading daily in English had a sensational headline titled “'Zahira retracted for money'. Another nationally syndicated columnist devoted an entire op-ed in defense of Teesta Setalvad without even the minimum of investigation into any of Zaheera’s charges. If anything the press must be wary of bogus peace and human rights activists that abound in India working for foreign interests. We the undersigned strongly protest that we do not want the Indian judicial system, the investigating agencies and the press be held hostage by individuals with questionable intentions, NGOs with unaccounted sources of funding. Further, NGOs who have no accountability to anyone should not be allowed to affect or even direct our judicial process, especially if they have foreign funding. It is important that fly-by-night organizations like one Ms. Setalvad has been running not malign and undermine India’s judicial system. Sincerely, On Wed, Apr 15, 2009 at 12:11 AM, Anuj Bhuwania wrote: > Dear all, > > It is perhaps worth noting that the only newspaper that reported the > Court proceedings in such terms, is the Times of India and its sister > publication Economic Times. Please find pasted below Teesta Setalvad's > rebuttal to this Times of India news report quoted already in the > first email posted on this thread. > > Best, > anuj > > Rebuttal to the Times of India report, dated April 14, 2009: > > The report in The Times of India, Mumbai edition dated April 14, 2009, > reportedly also published prominently in all its other editions > titled, ‘NGOs, Teesta spiced up Gujarat riots cases: SIT’ is a clear > example of irresponsible reportage. Intentionally or otherwise, the > distorted report damages the reputation of a citizens’ group that has > been recognized nationally and internationally for working assiduously > to ensure justice to the victims of mass violence whether in case of > the Gujarat carnage (2002), or the bomb blasts in Mumbai (2006 and > 2008) or the communal carnage in Kandhamal district, Orissa (2008), > irrespective of the caste or creed of the victims or the perpetrators. > > “The SIT led by former CBI director R K Raghavan told the Supreme > Court on Monday…” reads the opening para of the report. The fact is > that neither Sri Raghavan, nor any other SIT member was present at the > apex court to “tell” it anything. Sri Dhananjay Mahapatra’s report > could only be referring to a contention made in a four page note > circulated by Ms Hemantika Wahi for the Gujarat Government. (A copy of > the same is annexed). It was not a note prepared by SIT. The report is > all the more shocking since Sri Mahapatra was present in the court and > could not be unaware of this. > > The detailed report of SIT submitted to the Supreme Court on March 6, > 2007 has not been available for study either to National Human Rights > Commission (NHRC), the petitioners in this case, or the Citizens for > Justice and Peace (CJP) who have intervened in this critical matter or > to any in the media. Any reference to it is hence hearsay and it may > amount to contempt of court to write about a report which the Court > has specifically not made public. > > In its written note that the Gujarat state circulated in court > yesterday, the state has given its brief comments on the SIT report. > In para four of this note the Gujarat government note refers to > alleged statements made by some witnesses in the Gulberg case before > SIT that name accused other than those named by them in the written > statements that were (according to the state of Gujarat) given to them > by Teesta Setalvad and advocates. This is the version of the Gujarat > state. Besides this, Mukul Rohatgi tried to make a populist speech in > court saying that incidents like the Kauser Bano case etc never > happened. The Supreme Court disregarded this argument and did not > allow Mr.Rohatgi to read anything from the report. The court went on > to state that they were not interested in personal allegations and > only ensuring that, like in the course of the Zahira Shaikh case, the > trials are fair, the truth comes out and the course of justice is > served. > > It is necessary to recalled that in the course of the Best Bakery > trial, too, the Gujarat government had tried to divert the court’s > attention by engineering charges against Teesta Setalvad, secretary > CJP and by implication the NGO. On Setalvad’s application to the apex > court for a full fledged inquiry the report of the Registrar of the > apex court exonerated Setalvad and the NGO completely. > > As reported by the rest of the national media, on Monday, ignoring Sri > Rohatgi’s bid to side-step the main issues, the three-member bench of > the Supreme Court remained focused on the modalities of setting up > designated courts for the trial of the accused in the post-Godhra riot > cases in Gujarat. Instead of highlighting the court proceedings, Sri > Mahapatra chose to spice up his report focusing not on the > deliberations or the intentions of the apex court but to promote the > case of the Gujarat government. > > The moot question is whether or not 2,500 persons were killed in a > ghastly perpetrated massacre following the tragic burning alive of 59 > persons on the Sabarmati express; whether or not ex parliamentarian > Ahsan Jafri was mutilated before being burnt alive, whether the bodies > of the missing dead (over 220) have not been found or returned for > dignified burial after seven long years? All the national media was > witness to this national tragedy. > > In the interests of fair reportage and to ensure that the reputation > of a citizens group committed to equity and justice is not > deliberately vitiated before the trials commence, the newspaper should > carry this rebuttal in full. A failure to do so will result in the > columns of a national newspaper being used to distort facts, shape > public perception and seek to influence the outcome of due process of > law and justice to the victims of mass murder. > > (Statement by Citizens for Justice and Peace, Mumbai, April 14, 2009, > Mumbai) > > We wish also that the following issues be highlighted by you in a box > though the word length goes over your report. > > Pertinent issues ignored in the report: > > * The arrests of minister Dr Maya Kodnani and Dr Jaideep Patel in > the past weeks were on the basis of SIT re-investigations. Twelve FIRs > filed by witnesses naming these accused in 2002 had been clubbed into > a magnum FIR by the Ahmedabad crime branch that had dropped the names > of these powerful accused; > * The arrests of investigating officer KG Erda in the Gulberg > case and of other policemen in the other cases over the past months > has meant the claims of witness survivors and legal rights groups, > prima facie, are valid; > * That this was one of the issues why the apex court has chosen > to appoint SIT, the full scale subversion of the process of justice, > from the removal of names of accused who’s names appeared in earlier > statements simply because they enjoyed political patronage; the > appointment of prosecutors with allegiances to the BJP and VHP which > meant instead of promoting fair trial they sided with the politically > powerful and protected accused; > * More pertinently the tragic slaying of pregnant Kauser Bano > at Naroda Patiya after slitting her womb was reported in Deccan > Herald,(April 17, 2004) and The Indian Express, (March 23,2005) among > others apart from finding place in innumerable reports including the > one authored by the Concerned Citizens Tribunal-Crimes Against > Humanity 2002 headed by two Supreme Court judges, Justices Krishna > Iyer and PB Sawant. Similarly the British national case was similarly > documented apart from being covered in The Pioneer, March 3, 2002 and > The Hindu, April 23, 2002. > > > > > > On Tue, Apr 14, 2009 at 11:15 PM, Rakesh Iyer > wrote: > > Dear all > > > > The fact of the matter is that even official statistics show that more > than > > 1,000 died in these 'riots', if one were to call them that. However, a > riot > > is not organized but is a spontaneous reaction to an event or a chain of > > events which took place. This was a well planned genocide, for there were > > people talking on mobiles directing people to attack at various places, > > police was sleeping or not functioning, the RAF could not be contacted as > > telephone lines were cut, and interestingly even many people are > registered > > as missing even now, 7 years after the gory incidents. > > > > Every time one talks about these, Godhra is mentioned. Was anybody raped > in > > Godhra? Was anybody taunted in Godhra? Weren't the VHP workers creating > > problems for other passengers by occupying reserved seats? What were they > > doing occupying reserved seats while having unreserved tickets for > > themselves? Why was it so that a certain number of passengers could not > be > > identified days after the incident? Why was no official railway inquiry > > ordered within 48 hours of the incident by the Railway Ministry, as is > often > > the case when any incident pertaining to this ministry takes place? > > > > Nobody answers these questions. > > > > Then about avenging Godhra. Even if one were to logically look at it, why > > should Godhra be avenged in Gujarat? It should be avenged in Godhra only > > (logically looking from the anguished ones' angle). Why was it required > to > > target Ahmedabad Muslims for what happened in Godhra? Did these Muslims > go > > and do it there? Or did they support their activities? > > > > And how are rapes justified as avenging Godhra? If that is the case, then > > wouldn't a Muslim who lost everything in such 'riots' be justified in > > avenging it by raping the mother/sister of some member of this forum > > (including me) just because he/she is a Hindu? Is that right? > > > > Teesta Satalvad or no Teesta Satalvad, what is required is punishment of > the > > perpetrators in the strongest terms to set an example before the society > > that those who indulge in such violence would get what they deserve and > > shouldn't expect any mercy. It should act as a case of impartial justice > > delivered in the quickest possible time. And if Godhra accused can be put > > under POTA, all those involved in such killings anywhere and anytime > should > > be punished under UAPA. > > > > I hope that the SIT achieves this to a certain extent, and I would like > to > > look at the report before making any remarks. Newspaper clippings and > media > > have a sense to distort the entire thing, and even a portion or paragraph > > can be cited to change the context in which the comments were put up. I > > think the report is confidential as the matter is sub-judice. However, if > > the report is available, please do inform me (and indeed all of us) for > the > > same. > > > > And for me, justice is more important, irrespective of there is Teesta or > no > > Teesta; Pawan Durani or no Pawan Durani; Aditya Raj Kaul or no Aditya Raj > > Kaul, Rakesh Iyer or no Rakesh Iyer. > > > > And as a society, that is the goal we must strive towards, not Ram > > Mandir/Babri Masjid, not SEZ's or interlinking of rivers or other such > > faulty schemes, not temples of Modern India or huge dams, but means to > > improve livelihood of people and securing justice for them. > > > > Regards > > > > Rakesh > > _________________________________________ > > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > > Critiques & Collaborations > > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > subscribe in the subject header. > > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > subscribe in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> > From rakesh.rnbdj at gmail.com Wed Apr 15 05:14:36 2009 From: rakesh.rnbdj at gmail.com (Rakesh Iyer) Date: Wed, 15 Apr 2009 05:14:36 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Teesta Setalvad cooked up macabre tales on Gujarat Riots : SIT In-Reply-To: <6b79f1a70904141226pe7c05e4k1da7544c57be8aef@mail.gmail.com> References: <6353c690904140852p23812fa8v9e385fd53ff22ec6@mail.gmail.com> <1f9180970904141026h3a53f3f0m4f424e24fcadc756@mail.gmail.com> <6b79f1a70904141226pe7c05e4k1da7544c57be8aef@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: Dear Pawan jee If I should trust Zahira Sheikh, then why only her statement which accused Satalvad of threatening her? Why not that statement where she says the goons killed her family members and she did see them before her own eyes and can identify them? My contention is that it is because of her flip-flops that the SC has punished her (if I am not wrong). However my sympathies lie with the girl primarily because SC should have gone deeper into the malaise and found out what exactly made the girl change her stance again and again. That would have been very helpful. As for your trust of Satalvad, I understand your problem. I feel this is a murky deal going, so I think we should forget individuals like Satalvad here. The larger issue is justice for those who got killed. If during the investigation, it is found that Satalvad or anybody tried to influence such cases in a wrong way, then the court should punish them for doing so. Why have cat fights now, when anyway the judges have to take the decision on the report? Let the report come out and let the judges take the decision, and then we can sit and debate days and nights over it and the decision as well. As for Modi government, not for nothing did SC compare it to 'Modern day Nero'. And Modi was not able to answer anything on Karan Thapar's show 'Devil's Advocate' if you remember. Regards Rakesh From aiindex at gmail.com Wed Apr 15 10:25:01 2009 From: aiindex at gmail.com (Harsh Kapoor) Date: Wed, 15 Apr 2009 06:55:01 +0200 Subject: [Reader-list] Baseless media reports making allegations against Teesta Setalvad and Citizens For Justice and Peace Message-ID: FYI -- I. Baseless reports in the Indian media alleging that social activist Teesta Setalvad and CPJ exaggerated the violence during Gujarat pogrom of 2002 http://www.sacw.net/article827.html 1. Citizens For Justice and Peace Mumbai, April 14, 2009 CJP’s Rebuttal on Media Coverage of Supreme Court Proceedings, April 13, 2009 The report in sections of the national media dated April 14, 2009, alleging that NGOs, Teesta etc misled the apex court and exaggerated the violence in Gujarat in 2002 are clear example of irresponsible reportage. Intentionally or otherwise, the distorted report damages the reputation of a citizens’ group that has been recognized nationally and internationally for working assiduously to ensure justice to the victims of mass violence whether in case of the Gujarat carnage (2002), or the bomb blasts in Mumbai (2006 and 2008) or the communal carnage in Kandhamal district, Orissa (2008), irrespective of the caste or creed of the victims or the perpetrators. The fact is that neither Sri Raghavan, nor any other SIT member was present at the apex court to “tell” it anything. These reports could only be referring to a contention made in a four page note circulated by Ms Hemantika Wahi for the Gujarat Government.. It was NOT a note prepared by SIT. The detailed report of SIT submitted to the Supreme Court on March 6, 2007 has not been available for study either to National Human Rights Commission (NHRC), the petitioners in this case, or the Citizens for Justice and Peace (CJP) who have intervened in this critical matter or to any in the media. Any reference to it is hence hearsay and it may amount to contempt of court to write about a report which the Court has specifically not made public. In its written note that the Gujarat state circulated in court yesterday, the state has given its brief comments on the SIT report. In para four of this note the Gujarat government note refers to alleged statements made by some witnesses in the Gulberg case before SIT that name accused other than those named by them in the written statements that were (according to the state of Gujarat) given to them by Teesta Setalvad and advocates. This is the version of the Gujarat state. Besides this, Mukhul Rohatgi tried to make a populist speech in court saying that incidents like the Kauser Bano case etc never happened. The Supreme Court disregarded this argument and did not allow Mr.Rohatgi to read anything from the report. The court went on to state that they were not interested in personal allegations and only ensuring that, like in the course of the Zahira Shaikh case, the trials are fair, the truth comes out and the course of justice is served. It is necessary to recalled that in the course of the Best Bakery trial, too, the Gujarat government had tried to divert the court’s attention by engineering charges against Teesta Setalvad, secretary CJP and by implication the NGO. On Setalvad’s application to the apex court for a full fledged inquiry the report of the Registrar of the apex court exonerated Setalvad and the NGO completely. As reported by the rest of the national media, on Monday, ignoring Sri Rohatgi’s bid to side-step the main issues, the three-member bench of the Supreme Court remained focused on the modalities of setting up designated courts for the trial of the accused in the post-Godhra riot cases in Gujarat. Instead of highlighting the court proceedings, Sri Mahapatra chose to spice up his report focusing not on the deliberations or the intentions of the apex court but to promote the case of the Gujarat government. The moot question is whether or not 2,500 persons were killed in a ghastly perpetrated massacre following the tragic burning alive of 59 persons on the Sabarmati express; whether or not ex parliamentarian Ahsan Jafri was mutilated before being burnt alive, whether the bodies of the missing dead (over 220) have not been found or returned for dignified burial after seven long years? All the national media was witness to this national tragedy. In the interests of fair reportage and to ensure that the reputation of a citizens group committed to equity and justice is not deliberately vitiated before the trials commence, the media should carry this rebuttal in full. A failure to do so will result in the columns of a national newspaper being used to distort facts, shape public perception and seek to influence the outcome of due process of law and justice to the victims of mass murder. (Statement by Citizens for Justice and Peace, Mumbai, April 14, 2009, Mumbai) We wish also that the following issues Pertinent issues ignored in these reports: The arrests of minister Dr Maya Kodnani and Dr Jaideep Patel in the past weeks were on the basis of SIT re-investigations. Twelve FIRs filed by witnesses naming these accused in 2002 had been clubbed into a magnum FIR by the Ahmedabad crime branch that had dropped the names of these powerful accused; The arrests of investigating officer KG Erda in the Gulberg case and of other policemen in the other cases over the past months has meant the claims of witness survivors and legal rights groups, prima facie, are valid; That this was one of the issues why the apex court has chosen to appoint SIT, the full scale subversion of the process of justice, from the removal of names of accused who’s names appeared in earlier statements simply because they enjoyed political patronage; the appointment of prosecutors with allegiances to the BJP and VHP which meant instead of promoting fair trial they sided with the politically powerful and protected accused; More pertinently the tragic slaying of pregnant Kauser Bano at Naroda Patiya after slitting her womb was reported in Deccan Herald,(April 17, 2004) and The Indian Express, (March 23, 2005) among others apart from finding place in innumerable reports including the one authored by the Concerned Citizens Tribunal-Crimes Against Humanity 2002 headed by two Supreme Court judges, Justices Krishna Iyer and PB Sawant. Similarly the British national case was similarly documented apart from being covered in The Pioneer, March 3, 2002 and The Hindu, April 23, 2002. Trustees: Teesta Setalvad, I.M. Kadri, Arvind Krishnaswamy, Javed Akhtar, Cyrus Guzder, Alyque Padamsee, Anil Dharker, Nandan Maluste, Javed Anand, Rahul Bose, Cedric Prakash ---- 2. SAHMAT 8 Vithalbhai Patel House Rafi Marg, New Delhi Tel: 2371 1276, 2335 1424 E mail: sahmat(at)vsnl.com 14.4.2009 Press Statement on Tendentious Reporting in Media We are deeply disturbed by the tendentious reports in the media of the Supreme Court proceedings on April 13 dealing with the SIT report on the Gujarat carnage of 2002. This unhealthy trend in the media reporting is going to seriously compromise the credibility of the media and undermine "freedom of expression" enjoyed by the media which we all cherish. An impression being created in a section of the media that the former CBI director R K Raghvan who led the SIT has "told" the court that Teesta Setalvad "cooked up macabre tales of wanton killing" is mischievious. Only the Supreme Court, the amicus curiae and the Gujarat government have access to the report. The SIT has not filed any other document in court to which the media has access nor was Mr. Raghvan in the Court. It is therefore obvious that the media is only uncritically reporting what the Gujarat government’s lawyer said in the note liberally distributed to the press outside the Court. While the Supreme Court observed that there was no room for allegations and counter allegations at this late stage, the media coverage has brazenly flouted this observation by reporting the totally baseless allegations against social activist Teesta Setalvad and the organisation she represents Citizen for Justice and Peace on the basis of the Gujarat government’s note circulated in the Court. This is all the more reprehensible because Teesta Setalvad and Citizen for Justice and Peace have neither been given a copy of the SIT report nor has their response been sought in the matter. The proceedings in the Supreme Court related to the response of the Gujarat government and the amicus curiae Shri Harish Salve to the SIT report. The very fact that the Supreme Court had to set up the SIT to correct the miscarriage of justice due to the tardy investigation by the state of Gujarat was highlighted in the court’s observation that but for the SIT investigation many more accused, who were freshly added, would not have been brought to book. It was the untiring efforts of Teesta Setalvad and the CJP and the National Human Rights Commission that persuaded the Supreme Court to set up the SIT and on the basis of its findings further arrests have been made of persons who held administrative and ministerial positions in the government of Gujarat. M.K.Raina for SAHMAT ____ II. Teesta's Rebuttal to Times of India report, dated April 14, 2009 http://tinyurl.com/caab37 From shambhu.rahmat at gmail.com Wed Apr 15 10:30:57 2009 From: shambhu.rahmat at gmail.com (Shambhu Rahmat) Date: Wed, 15 Apr 2009 11:00:57 +0600 Subject: [Reader-list] Sunita Paul Plagiarism Snowball Message-ID: Latest on her plagiarism of two Daily Star articles: http://www.docstrangelove.com/2009/04/14/sunita-paul-continues-to-plagiarize/ Shada Kalo also has a new post out: http://shadakalo.blogspot.com/2009/04/interesting-and-incisive-does-not.html Rezwan also has a post out and it looks like The Telegraph of Calcutta is preparing to publish a piece on "Sunita Paul". Helene Cooper of the New York Times wrote back to J of Shada Kalo who had forwarded the plagiarism post. NYT is taking the copyright violation seriously and will likely pursue it with American Chronicle. http://shadakalo.blogspot.com/2009/04/sunita-paul-international-woman-of.html From shambhu.rahmat at gmail.com Wed Apr 15 10:38:37 2009 From: shambhu.rahmat at gmail.com (Shambhu Rahmat) Date: Wed, 15 Apr 2009 11:08:37 +0600 Subject: [Reader-list] UCLA Features Sunita Paul Plagiarism story Message-ID: UCLA's AsiaMedia has picked up the Daily Star op-ed and is featuring it as the top story in their South Asia commentary section: http://www.asiamedia.ucla.edu/article-southasia.asp?parentid=106963 From chiarapassa at gmail.com Tue Apr 14 14:49:47 2009 From: chiarapassa at gmail.com (Chiara Passa) Date: Tue, 14 Apr 2009 11:19:47 +0200 Subject: [Reader-list] new review on ideasonair.net In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Dear friends & colleagues, I'm glad to share with you this fresh review http://blog.ponoko.com/2009/04/12/royalty-free-ideas/ on my blog-art project ideasonair.net Thanks & regards, Chiara -- Chiara Passa chiarapassa at gmail.com http://www.chiarapassa.it http://www.ideasonair.net http://twitter.com/jogador Skype: ideasonair From underconstruction at magiclanternfoundation.org Tue Apr 14 14:58:17 2009 From: underconstruction at magiclanternfoundation.org (Magic Lantern Foundation) Date: Tue, 14 Apr 2009 14:58:17 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] 2nd edition of 'Persistence Resistance a festival of contemporary political films' THIS IS A REMINDER EMAIL Message-ID: APOLOGIES FOR CROSS POSTING Dear All, We are happy to invite you to the second edition of our film festival ŒPersistence Resistance: a festival of contemporary political films¹ The festival schedule is available at: http://www.magiclanternfoundation.org/Events/Persistence%202009/pr09home.htm l Dates: April 17-19 Venue: India International Centre, 40 Max Mueller Marg, Lodhi Estate, New Delhi 110003 All welcome. Entry Free If you are in Delhi between 17-19 April 2009, do please visit and attend the festival. Please also circulate the invite to your friends and networks in Delhi who might wish to attend or write about the festival. The Festival Team --- Magic Lantern Foundation J 1881 Basement, Chittaranjan Park, New Delhi 110019 Ph: +91 11 41605239, 26273244 Email: underconstruction at magiclanternfoundation.org / magiclantern.foundation at gmail.com / magiclf at vsnl.com Web: http://www.magiclanternfoundation.org From press at tank.tv Tue Apr 14 19:09:22 2009 From: press at tank.tv (tank.tv press) Date: Tue, 14 Apr 2009 14:39:22 +0100 Subject: [Reader-list] mounir fatmi, 'Hard Head', on www.tank.tv until 30th April. Message-ID: <78c84f090904140639p2f82eb0ah9d487346a6e34245@mail.gmail.com> *mounir fatmi Hard Head 8th - 30th April 2009 on www.tank.tv * “For me, identity is the worst heritage you can receive.” mounir fatmi tank.tv is pleased to present the exhibition Hard Head from mounir fatmi: 'The Machinery', 'Feast, Tribute to William Burroughs', 'Man with no Horse, movement 03', 'The Others are the Others', 'The Lost Ones', 'Commerciale', 'May God forgive me', 'Embargo' and 'Manipulations'. mounir fatmi constructs visual spaces and linguistic games that aim to free the viewer from their preconceptions of politics and religion, and allows them to contemplate these and other subjects in new ways. His videos, installations, drawings, paintings and sculptures bring to light our doubts, fears and desires. They directly address the current events of our world, and serve to both clarify the origins and symptoms of global issues, as well as speak to those whose lives are affected by specific events. Born in 1970 in Tangier and currently living and working in Paris mounir fatmi’s work has been exhibited internationally at venues such as the Centre Georges Pompidou, Paris, Tate Modern, London, the Studio Museum Harlem, New York and the Mori Art Museum in Tokyo, Japan. He has also participated in a range of biennials and triennials including the Gwangju Biennial, Korea, the Sharjah Biennial and the 52nd Venice Biennale. www.tank.tv www.mounirfatmi.com Exhibition generously funded by Paris Calling. With special thanks to Heure Exquise! Hard Head, a DVD compilation of work by mounir fatmi is available from lowave. -- -- - - - - - - - - - - - - tank.tv 2nd Floor Princess House 50 - 60 Eastcastle Street London W1W 8EA press at tank.tv T: +44 (0)207323 3475 F: +44 (0)207631 4280 http://www.tank.tv - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Now showing: mounir fatmi 8th - 30th April 2009. Fresh Moves - Out now! Order your copy on www.tank.tv "A significant archive of creative practices in the early years of twenty-first century England" Tyler Coburn, Tomorrow Unlimited --- tank.tv is an inspirational showcase for innovative work in film and video. Dedicated to exhibiting and promoting emerging and established international artists, www.tank.tv acts as a major online gallery and archive for video art. A platform for contemporary moving images. From aliens at dataone.in Wed Apr 15 12:28:47 2009 From: aliens at dataone.in (bipin) Date: Wed, 15 Apr 2009 12:28:47 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Ayodhya, a simple matter of adjudication and courts and judiciary has failed the nation. References: <61164a90904130350g277a507fiabe038b1721cc36a@mail.gmail.com> <1f9180970904140012wc8ada05j187ab09b32157be9@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <001c01c9bd97$a0834a80$0201a8c0@limo> Dear Venugopalan, In India, I think, who speak for or create show to speak for minority is secular and who speak for majority is communal. This is the definition of secularism in India is prevailing. The real secularism is to give equal respect and treatment to all the religions (dharma). But, what is religion or what is Dharma? It is very complicated question. The real religion or dharma is the work you do honestly and sincerely allotted to you. For Ex. You have to take care of your new born child and make him/her self sufficient by giving good culture, education, discipline, fighting spirit etc. and instead of this if you remain in the activities like prayer in temples/mosque and devote the time after god only is not the real dharma you are adopting. You carry on your duty sincerely and honestly you have to do at the different stages of life is the real dharma or religion. As you say Nair brought the idols of Ram in this site (this is also myth and one kind of story only w/o authentification). However, if its true, than also statue is not important, by the excavation of land the sculpture found in digging is important. Babri Masjid demolishen was also not good. But, there is historical place of Hindu lord Rama birth place deep routed in the mind of whole of India and the place of moscue where nothing was happening since years and remain idle, with broad mind, Muslim community should understand and would have given the place for building temple. This very long issue and repeated requests was denied by Babri committee. One time came Hindu got anxious and things happened. if million of people’s feelings (aatha) will be their in particular place even where I and my ancester lived for even more than 100 years and if there were few such traces of old manuments (temple or mosque) there I would be definitely pleased to give away that place for sake of million of people and in a way help to prevail peace. (though I don’t prefer to go to dirty temples, instead I prefer to go to wild life jungles since I believe nature is the best temple made by god). Even Mr. Nehru can not be secular. Since his biased behavior towards Sheikh Abdullah (may be due to religious nature or friendship god knows) created the Kashmir problem. His policy towards Kashmir was guided by Sheikh Abdullah only. This is general persuasion may be I might be wrong. But, things happen on those days leads to this belief. He was even not listening to his fellow member also like Mr. Sardar Patel for this matter, who succeeded to do some extraordinary tough job after independence. Ignorance of Mr. Patel is still going on by congress or Nehru/Gandhi family. This might be the root of religionism and/or minor vote bank politics coming inherence in congress. thanks Bipin ----- Original Message ----- From: "Venugopalan K M" To: "sarai-list" Sent: Tuesday, April 14, 2009 12:42 PM Subject: Re: [Reader-list] Ayodhya, a simple matter of adjudication and courts and judiciary has failed the nation. > What dispute? Who told you that Babrai Masjid belonged to Mr.Advani &Co? > Who's he to be the (criminal )demolisher of the masid and the builder of > ram > temp le in the name of "all hindus" of India? > > Who told you that you and me should have any real stakes in the > destruction > of that humble masjid(which had to stop namaz owing to the handiwork of > few > communalists and certain secularists like Nehru, who just wanted to stop > trouble)? > > Actually, a Malayali Nair( K.K.Nair) who had been the dist magistratre of > Faizabad in 1948 and a sympathizer of the anti-national RSS and killers of > M.K.Gandhi is believed to have conspired to smuggle idols of Ram,Seetha > and > Hanuman in the dead of a december night..precisely on Dec 22-23,though I > have to check the exact date, and later claiming these idols as "swayam > bhu"(originated divinely and without human agency)! > > Granted that you and me have the freedom to believe any trash as history. > But authentic historical studies have shown that nowhere in Ayodhya, Ram > Temples were existing even in the times of Thulasidas(16th century) who > wrote Ramcharitmanas! > > Go with more and more of trash..plz don't try to impose on others in your > service (though it is welcome, because it exposes rather than conceals > your > commitment to the politics of hatred)to the hidutwa bigots! > > Let the sense of refinement prevail on you thanks to your being a member > of this discussion forum and to your willingness to communicate to > instantly > whatever you "think"! > btw, thanks for providing the exact information on the > measurement of the land which is pending to be handed over to ---------, > because of "spineless judges" sitting there. > Certainly it is not you or me who are the holders of stake,I think.. > Nor is it the entire hindus of India... > Who could it be then you are so passionately and so blindly taking wakalat > for? > > > Regards, > Venu. > > On Mon, Apr 13, 2009 at 4:20 PM, Rajen Uppinangadi < > rajen882uppinangadi at gmail.com> wrote: > >> The issue is simply the matter of adjudication of issue of ownership of >> land >> of admeasuring 42 feet by 65 feet, by the court of India, judges have >> fudged >> for decades as spineless individuals waiting for their promotion and made >> this an emotive issue by the plitical parties for the vote banks. >> >> As to Advani and his rath yathra, it should be noted that rath yathra did >> not start the communal riots, but stoppage of Rathyathra by lalu yadav >> for >> vote gains of community in his winning combination of MY equation started >> the riots, the system of governance did nothing to punish those indulgig >> in >> riots but rewarded them with MLA and MP tickets, thus criminalisation >> became >> history of indian politics. >> >> What should have been disposed off as simple property suit, of a >> scheduled >> property, of a dilapidated structure, became masjid without prayers, to >> become birth point of Lord rama, as if all were the midwifes at the >> time.? >> _________________________________________ >> reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. >> Critiques & Collaborations >> To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with >> subscribe in the subject header. >> To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list >> List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> > > > > > -- > http://venukm.blogspot.com/ > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > subscribe in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> From mitoo at sarai.net Wed Apr 15 12:01:02 2009 From: mitoo at sarai.net (Mitoo Das) Date: Wed, 15 Apr 2009 12:01:02 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] [Announcements] Seminar Announcement- CSDS Message-ID: <49E57F26.90306@sarai.net> Tuesday, 21st April, 2009 Sonia Sikka will speak on Secularism and the Hardening of Religious Identity at 3:00 PM in the Seminar Room, CSDS, 29 Rajpur Road, Delhi – 110 054 The broad thesis of this paper is that practical operation of certain secular paradigms has an undesirable effect on the construction and negotiation of religious identities. This thesis is oriented towards political models that seek to exclude deliberation involving appeals to religion from the public sphere, whether these prescribe the wholesale privatisation of religion as a matter of individual conscience, or offer state recognition to multiple religious communities. While these two procedures are in many respects very different, they both encourage members of religious communities to cordon off a critically important subset of their beliefs and values, and to treat this subset as if it were fixed and unrevisable, intrinsically unsuited to substantive discussion and debate. Such a process contributes to a reification and hardening of religious identities; it contributes, in fact, to the positioning of religious viewpoints as a matter of “identity.” At the same time, the exclusion of religion from educational institutions, and from the public sphere in general, gives rise to a situation in which non-religious citizens are largely ignorant about religion, and unable to see in it anything but foolish superstition and a source of hatred and violence. This view of religion, it is suggested, is both false and unhelpful, serving to reinforce rather than to mitigate the dogmatism of the forms of belief it opposes. Sonia Sikka is Associate Professor of Philosophy at the University of Ottawa, Canada. Her primary research interests are in modern European philosophy, philosophy of religion and philosophy of culture. She has written extensively on Heidegger, Nietzsche, Levinas and other authors in the continental tradition of philosophy. Over the past several years, she has also published a series of articles on issues related to cultural identity and pluralism within the thought of J.G. Herder. At present, Dr. Sikka is working on the topic of identity construction, with a particular focus on religious identities. - Rajesh Ramakrishnan Academic Secretary CSDS _______________________________________________ announcements mailing list announcements at sarai.net https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/announcements From aliens at dataone.in Wed Apr 15 13:24:03 2009 From: aliens at dataone.in (bipin) Date: Wed, 15 Apr 2009 13:24:03 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Teesta Setalvad cooked up macabre tales on Gujarat Riots : SIT References: <6353c690904140852p23812fa8v9e385fd53ff22ec6@mail.gmail.com> <1f9180970904141026h3a53f3f0m4f424e24fcadc756@mail.gmail.com> <6b79f1a70904141226pe7c05e4k1da7544c57be8aef@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <006a01c9bd9f$58ce13c0$0201a8c0@limo> Dear Pawan, In a way its very true I am giving my point of view as under. NGO and human right activists’ activities are totally biased and they act with the guidance of their source of funds only. For ex Teesta’s NGO is working only for Gujarat riot, Mumbai ’92 riot or Kandhmal. The one did by communal forces according to them. They have never raised their voice for the victim of terrorist in India, Kashmir, Shikh riot etc. This shows their biased behavior only. Such foreign organizations are normally against the India to grow and such many movement is going on with foreign various trust funding. Many NGO’s and human right activists’ bread butter with such fund only. In case of Jaheera they have instigated to give false statement and by this way they have got much more additional funds from foreign missionaries Teesta promised Zahira to give handsome money for life long living. But, after following the Teesta’s path, Zahira did not get any money as promised. So, Zahira turned down in the court and what she was knowing really told to the court. Its absolutely true that at that time media, such NGO’s Human Right Activists has played a key role to hype and exaggerated this issue than the actual it is. Simple reason by doing this NGO and Human rights Activist had got huge funding. Someone arguing about the rape incidents occurred during 2002 Gujarat riots. Still not a single rape case registered and if it would have happened during that period is must be a part of normal rape incidence going on even today in large scale in India by goonda elements and nothing to do with riot occurred by way of reaction. Whenever, riot takes place this is very normal practice to make such allegation to give much more hype in the issue. thanks Bipin ----- Original Message ----- From: "Pawan Durani" To: "Anuj Bhuwania" Cc: Sent: Wednesday, April 15, 2009 12:56 AM Subject: Re: [Reader-list] Teesta Setalvad cooked up macabre tales on Gujarat Riots : SIT > An interesting petition i just found on internet ......No comments from my > side .....but the petition is worth reading............ > http://www.petitiononline.com/ngoi/petition.html > > To: Supreme Court Of India, CBI (India), Press Council Of India > > Appeal to maintain the sanctity of India's judicial system > > To: > > HON’BLE MR. JUSTICE R.C. LAHOTI, Chief Justice of Supreme Court Of India. > > SHRI U.S. MISRA, Director CBI > > HON’BLE MR. JUSTICE K. JAYACHANDRA REDDY, Chairman Press Council of India. > > As events in the trial of the Best Bakery case unfold, the man on the > street > looks on in askance where exactly the truth lies. On one side is a much > maligned but democratically elected government of Gujarat that is charged > and on the other is a highly pampered but suspicious NGO who leads the > attack and in the middle is a simple, 20-year old girl. The case > pertaining > to the Best Bakery massacre has become more of a contrivance to score > political points than to execute justice. It is unfortunate that courts > all > the way to the apex court in India have fallen prey to this political > tussle. > > It is the appeal of the undersigned that restraint is followed in making > judgments and the fact be examined that NGOs themselves might have vested > interests. > > Zaheera Sheikh’s allegations against the NGO Citizens for Justice and > Peace > and its counselor Teesta Setalvad carry criminal ramifications. In her own > words Zaheera admitted that she perceived a threat to her life from > activist > Teesta Setalvad. She further narrated how she was abducted at knifepoint > at > the behest of Ms. Setalvad. In a rare admission she alleged *"Teesta > forced > me into changing my earlier deposition. She threatened me with dire > consequences if I did not follow her instructions."* > > For an NGO that belabors endlessly on communal harmony, Ms Setalvad’s > approach to the Best Bakery case appears not to be one of conciliation but > rooted in widening the communal chasm when one hears Zaheera narrate *“When > I asked her what she wanted, she said, 'You have to fight for your > community, for which even if you have to tell lies, you'll have to tell > lies > before court.”* Zaheera Sheikh has also charged Ms Setalvad of holding her > captive and threatening her of lynching! > > One must also note that since her allegation against Ms Setalvad, Zaheera > Sheikh has also sought the counsel and protection of National Committee > for > Minorities (NCM) and The National Commission for Women (NCW). She met with > Ms Poornima Advani of the NCW in the week of Nov 8-14 in this connection. > Ms > Advani it should be recalled has constantly fought for the human rights of > those affected by the Gujarat incidents. While, the Gujarat government has > been insidiously charged by all and sundry of having coerced Zaheera into > her latest volte-face - after her meeting Ms Advani welcomed Zaheera’s > stance and rejected allegations of illegal pressure by the Gujarat Govt. > She > confirmed to the press that *“Zaheera was under no pressure and was doing > her own things”.* > > It must be further noted that allegations of threat against Ms. Setalvad > are > not just from Zaheera Sheikh alone. A day after Zaheera Sheikh sought > police > protection from Ms. Setalvad, an accused in the case Dinesh Rajbhar told > special judge A M Thipsay that Setalvad had 'threatened' him while being > taken out of the court in Mumbai. The court has taken the complaint of Ms. > Setalvad’s threat in the words - *"Hum tum sab ko dekh lenge* (We will see > you)” - on record. > > It has been noticed several times that many NGOs in India have been > exposed > as tax shelters and sophisticated social swindles. It has also been noted > that many NGOs do have vested foreign interests whose ultimate interest is > what NGOs champion. It is our appeal therefore that the courts, based on > the > petitions by NGOs whose credentials may be questionable, not execute > landmark decisions. In light of the serious allegations the star witness > of > the Best Bakery has made against the NGO Citizens for Justice and Peace > and > its forerunner Teesta Setalvad, this becomes very important. > > > The role of the Ms Teesta Setalvad and her interest for state of India are > more than dubious. If anything, Ms. Teesta Setalvad is hardly an NGO and > driven impetuously against only a certain political ideology. She > publishes > “Communalism Combat”. Ostensibly a publication for communal harmony, its > real purpose and effect appear to be directed at communal polarization. > Sabrang Communications (Private) Ltd that she jointly operates with her > husband Javed Anand has a history of coordinating several political > activities with a common theme: attack democratically elected governments > in > India, and slander them abroad, and conduct anti-Indian propaganda. > > We also appeal to the CBI to investigate the funds received by Ms Setalvad > and her NGO for political pamphleteering. There have been indications that > Sabrang Communications has been soliciting foreign funding giving the > address of one SINGH foundation in the United States. In fact per Zaheera > Sheikh’s revelation to press persons, Ms. Setalvad even threatened Zaheera > with her monetary clout – as Zaheera narrated *"I told Teesta I would > lodge > a complaint against her with Vadodara police and expose her, but Teesta > replied, 'We are very rich and influential. You can't harm us that way.”* > > Who should we believe? The battle has been drawn out between a very > powerful > woman who is on the board of several government offices, is in close > association with corporate houses, has been felicitated overseas with > sundry > awards and in defence is a hapless young girl barely out of her teens, > bereaved and homeless. Ms Setalvad's loyalties are at best "divided" - she > has consistently used a secessionist map of India on her web-site and > viciously attacked Indian musicians who asked for equivalent access to > Pakistani markets, as offered to Pakistani musicians here. Her current > effort at undermining an indigent, inadequately educated girl, barely out > of > her teens, is avidly supported by Pakistanis and organizations that align > themselves with the NDF-ISI nexus. Do we really want such a person and her > coterie to affect our judicial system? > > This petition is also an appeal of the undersigned to the Press Council of > India to advise restrain on the astounding one-sidedness of press > reporting. > Even though Zahira Sheikh’s reputation appears tarnished with her constant > about faces, her allegations against Ms. Setalvad must be investigated > without prejudice. The press must be cautious in making slanted reports > that > may be construed as a defense of Ms. Setalvad. While the truth remains > muddied, speculation in the press is rife about Zaheera’s character, > stories > are being made up about greed and letting down her community. For example > with little or no corroborating evidence, India’s leading daily in English > had a sensational headline titled “'Zahira retracted for money'. Another > nationally syndicated columnist devoted an entire op-ed in defense of > Teesta > Setalvad without even the minimum of investigation into any of Zaheera’s > charges. If anything the press must be wary of bogus peace and human > rights > activists that abound in India working for foreign interests. > > We the undersigned strongly protest that we do not want the Indian > judicial > system, the investigating agencies and the press be held hostage by > individuals with questionable intentions, NGOs with unaccounted sources of > funding. Further, NGOs who have no accountability to anyone should not be > allowed to affect or even direct our judicial process, especially if they > have foreign funding. It is important that fly-by-night organizations like > one Ms. Setalvad has been running not malign and undermine India’s > judicial > system. > > > Sincerely, > > On Wed, Apr 15, 2009 at 12:11 AM, Anuj Bhuwania > wrote: > >> Dear all, >> >> It is perhaps worth noting that the only newspaper that reported the >> Court proceedings in such terms, is the Times of India and its sister >> publication Economic Times. Please find pasted below Teesta Setalvad's >> rebuttal to this Times of India news report quoted already in the >> first email posted on this thread. >> >> Best, >> anuj >> >> Rebuttal to the Times of India report, dated April 14, 2009: >> >> The report in The Times of India, Mumbai edition dated April 14, 2009, >> reportedly also published prominently in all its other editions >> titled, ‘NGOs, Teesta spiced up Gujarat riots cases: SIT’ is a clear >> example of irresponsible reportage. Intentionally or otherwise, the >> distorted report damages the reputation of a citizens’ group that has >> been recognized nationally and internationally for working assiduously >> to ensure justice to the victims of mass violence whether in case of >> the Gujarat carnage (2002), or the bomb blasts in Mumbai (2006 and >> 2008) or the communal carnage in Kandhamal district, Orissa (2008), >> irrespective of the caste or creed of the victims or the perpetrators. >> >> “The SIT led by former CBI director R K Raghavan told the Supreme >> Court on Monday…” reads the opening para of the report. The fact is >> that neither Sri Raghavan, nor any other SIT member was present at the >> apex court to “tell” it anything. Sri Dhananjay Mahapatra’s report >> could only be referring to a contention made in a four page note >> circulated by Ms Hemantika Wahi for the Gujarat Government. (A copy of >> the same is annexed). It was not a note prepared by SIT. The report is >> all the more shocking since Sri Mahapatra was present in the court and >> could not be unaware of this. >> >> The detailed report of SIT submitted to the Supreme Court on March 6, >> 2007 has not been available for study either to National Human Rights >> Commission (NHRC), the petitioners in this case, or the Citizens for >> Justice and Peace (CJP) who have intervened in this critical matter or >> to any in the media. Any reference to it is hence hearsay and it may >> amount to contempt of court to write about a report which the Court >> has specifically not made public. >> >> In its written note that the Gujarat state circulated in court >> yesterday, the state has given its brief comments on the SIT report. >> In para four of this note the Gujarat government note refers to >> alleged statements made by some witnesses in the Gulberg case before >> SIT that name accused other than those named by them in the written >> statements that were (according to the state of Gujarat) given to them >> by Teesta Setalvad and advocates. This is the version of the Gujarat >> state. Besides this, Mukul Rohatgi tried to make a populist speech in >> court saying that incidents like the Kauser Bano case etc never >> happened. The Supreme Court disregarded this argument and did not >> allow Mr.Rohatgi to read anything from the report. The court went on >> to state that they were not interested in personal allegations and >> only ensuring that, like in the course of the Zahira Shaikh case, the >> trials are fair, the truth comes out and the course of justice is >> served. >> >> It is necessary to recalled that in the course of the Best Bakery >> trial, too, the Gujarat government had tried to divert the court’s >> attention by engineering charges against Teesta Setalvad, secretary >> CJP and by implication the NGO. On Setalvad’s application to the apex >> court for a full fledged inquiry the report of the Registrar of the >> apex court exonerated Setalvad and the NGO completely. >> >> As reported by the rest of the national media, on Monday, ignoring Sri >> Rohatgi’s bid to side-step the main issues, the three-member bench of >> the Supreme Court remained focused on the modalities of setting up >> designated courts for the trial of the accused in the post-Godhra riot >> cases in Gujarat. Instead of highlighting the court proceedings, Sri >> Mahapatra chose to spice up his report focusing not on the >> deliberations or the intentions of the apex court but to promote the >> case of the Gujarat government. >> >> The moot question is whether or not 2,500 persons were killed in a >> ghastly perpetrated massacre following the tragic burning alive of 59 >> persons on the Sabarmati express; whether or not ex parliamentarian >> Ahsan Jafri was mutilated before being burnt alive, whether the bodies >> of the missing dead (over 220) have not been found or returned for >> dignified burial after seven long years? All the national media was >> witness to this national tragedy. >> >> In the interests of fair reportage and to ensure that the reputation >> of a citizens group committed to equity and justice is not >> deliberately vitiated before the trials commence, the newspaper should >> carry this rebuttal in full. A failure to do so will result in the >> columns of a national newspaper being used to distort facts, shape >> public perception and seek to influence the outcome of due process of >> law and justice to the victims of mass murder. >> >> (Statement by Citizens for Justice and Peace, Mumbai, April 14, 2009, >> Mumbai) >> >> We wish also that the following issues be highlighted by you in a box >> though the word length goes over your report. >> >> Pertinent issues ignored in the report: >> >> * The arrests of minister Dr Maya Kodnani and Dr Jaideep Patel in >> the past weeks were on the basis of SIT re-investigations. Twelve FIRs >> filed by witnesses naming these accused in 2002 had been clubbed into >> a magnum FIR by the Ahmedabad crime branch that had dropped the names >> of these powerful accused; >> * The arrests of investigating officer KG Erda in the Gulberg >> case and of other policemen in the other cases over the past months >> has meant the claims of witness survivors and legal rights groups, >> prima facie, are valid; >> * That this was one of the issues why the apex court has chosen >> to appoint SIT, the full scale subversion of the process of justice, >> from the removal of names of accused who’s names appeared in earlier >> statements simply because they enjoyed political patronage; the >> appointment of prosecutors with allegiances to the BJP and VHP which >> meant instead of promoting fair trial they sided with the politically >> powerful and protected accused; >> * More pertinently the tragic slaying of pregnant Kauser Bano >> at Naroda Patiya after slitting her womb was reported in Deccan >> Herald,(April 17, 2004) and The Indian Express, (March 23,2005) among >> others apart from finding place in innumerable reports including the >> one authored by the Concerned Citizens Tribunal-Crimes Against >> Humanity 2002 headed by two Supreme Court judges, Justices Krishna >> Iyer and PB Sawant. Similarly the British national case was similarly >> documented apart from being covered in The Pioneer, March 3, 2002 and >> The Hindu, April 23, 2002. >> >> >> >> >> >> On Tue, Apr 14, 2009 at 11:15 PM, Rakesh Iyer >> wrote: >> > Dear all >> > >> > The fact of the matter is that even official statistics show that more >> than >> > 1,000 died in these 'riots', if one were to call them that. However, a >> riot >> > is not organized but is a spontaneous reaction to an event or a chain >> > of >> > events which took place. This was a well planned genocide, for there >> > were >> > people talking on mobiles directing people to attack at various places, >> > police was sleeping or not functioning, the RAF could not be contacted >> > as >> > telephone lines were cut, and interestingly even many people are >> registered >> > as missing even now, 7 years after the gory incidents. >> > >> > Every time one talks about these, Godhra is mentioned. Was anybody >> > raped >> in >> > Godhra? Was anybody taunted in Godhra? Weren't the VHP workers creating >> > problems for other passengers by occupying reserved seats? What were >> > they >> > doing occupying reserved seats while having unreserved tickets for >> > themselves? Why was it so that a certain number of passengers could not >> be >> > identified days after the incident? Why was no official railway inquiry >> > ordered within 48 hours of the incident by the Railway Ministry, as is >> often >> > the case when any incident pertaining to this ministry takes place? >> > >> > Nobody answers these questions. >> > >> > Then about avenging Godhra. Even if one were to logically look at it, >> > why >> > should Godhra be avenged in Gujarat? It should be avenged in Godhra >> > only >> > (logically looking from the anguished ones' angle). Why was it required >> to >> > target Ahmedabad Muslims for what happened in Godhra? Did these Muslims >> go >> > and do it there? Or did they support their activities? >> > >> > And how are rapes justified as avenging Godhra? If that is the case, >> > then >> > wouldn't a Muslim who lost everything in such 'riots' be justified in >> > avenging it by raping the mother/sister of some member of this forum >> > (including me) just because he/she is a Hindu? Is that right? >> > >> > Teesta Satalvad or no Teesta Satalvad, what is required is punishment >> > of >> the >> > perpetrators in the strongest terms to set an example before the >> > society >> > that those who indulge in such violence would get what they deserve and >> > shouldn't expect any mercy. It should act as a case of impartial >> > justice >> > delivered in the quickest possible time. And if Godhra accused can be >> > put >> > under POTA, all those involved in such killings anywhere and anytime >> should >> > be punished under UAPA. >> > >> > I hope that the SIT achieves this to a certain extent, and I would like >> to >> > look at the report before making any remarks. Newspaper clippings and >> media >> > have a sense to distort the entire thing, and even a portion or >> > paragraph >> > can be cited to change the context in which the comments were put up. I >> > think the report is confidential as the matter is sub-judice. However, >> > if >> > the report is available, please do inform me (and indeed all of us) for >> the >> > same. >> > >> > And for me, justice is more important, irrespective of there is Teesta >> > or >> no >> > Teesta; Pawan Durani or no Pawan Durani; Aditya Raj Kaul or no Aditya >> > Raj >> > Kaul, Rakesh Iyer or no Rakesh Iyer. >> > >> > And as a society, that is the goal we must strive towards, not Ram >> > Mandir/Babri Masjid, not SEZ's or interlinking of rivers or other such >> > faulty schemes, not temples of Modern India or huge dams, but means to >> > improve livelihood of people and securing justice for them. >> > >> > Regards >> > >> > Rakesh >> > _________________________________________ >> > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. >> > Critiques & Collaborations >> > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with >> subscribe in the subject header. >> > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list >> > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> >> _________________________________________ >> reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. >> Critiques & Collaborations >> To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with >> subscribe in the subject header. >> To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list >> List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> >> > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > subscribe in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> From aliens at dataone.in Wed Apr 15 13:24:19 2009 From: aliens at dataone.in (bipin) Date: Wed, 15 Apr 2009 13:24:19 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Teesta Setalvad cooked up macabre tales on Gujarat Riots : SIT References: <6353c690904140852p23812fa8v9e385fd53ff22ec6@mail.gmail.com> <1f9180970904141026h3a53f3f0m4f424e24fcadc756@mail.gmail.com> <6b79f1a70904141226pe7c05e4k1da7544c57be8aef@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <006b01c9bd9f$61f49b40$0201a8c0@limo> Dear Pawan, In a way its very true I am giving my point of view as under. NGO and human right activists’ activities are totally biased and they act with the guidance of their source of funds only. For ex Teesta’s NGO is working only for Gujarat riot, Mumbai ’92 riot or Kandhmal. The one did by communal forces according to them. They have never raised their voice for the victim of terrorist in India, Kashmir, Shikh riot etc. This shows their biased behavior only. Such foreign organizations are normally against the India to grow and such many movement is going on with foreign various trust funding. Many NGO’s and human right activists’ bread butter with such fund only. In case of Jaheera they have instigated to give false statement and by this way they have got much more additional funds from foreign missionaries Teesta promised Zahira to give handsome money for life long living. But, after following the Teesta’s path, Zahira did not get any money as promised. So, Zahira turned down in the court and what she was knowing really told to the court. Its absolutely true that at that time media, such NGO’s Human Right Activists has played a key role to hype and exaggerated this issue than the actual it is. Simple reason by doing this NGO and Human rights Activist had got huge funding. Someone arguing about the rape incidents occurred during 2002 Gujarat riots. Still not a single rape case registered and if it would have happened during that period is must be a part of normal rape incidence going on even today in large scale in India by goonda elements and nothing to do with riot occurred by way of reaction. Whenever, riot takes place this is very normal practice to make such allegation to give much more hype in the issue. thanks Bipin ----- Original Message ----- From: "Pawan Durani" To: "Anuj Bhuwania" Cc: Sent: Wednesday, April 15, 2009 12:56 AM Subject: Re: [Reader-list] Teesta Setalvad cooked up macabre tales on Gujarat Riots : SIT > An interesting petition i just found on internet ......No comments from my > side .....but the petition is worth reading............ > http://www.petitiononline.com/ngoi/petition.html > > To: Supreme Court Of India, CBI (India), Press Council Of India > > Appeal to maintain the sanctity of India's judicial system > > To: > > HON’BLE MR. JUSTICE R.C. LAHOTI, Chief Justice of Supreme Court Of India. > > SHRI U.S. MISRA, Director CBI > > HON’BLE MR. JUSTICE K. JAYACHANDRA REDDY, Chairman Press Council of India. > > As events in the trial of the Best Bakery case unfold, the man on the > street > looks on in askance where exactly the truth lies. On one side is a much > maligned but democratically elected government of Gujarat that is charged > and on the other is a highly pampered but suspicious NGO who leads the > attack and in the middle is a simple, 20-year old girl. The case > pertaining > to the Best Bakery massacre has become more of a contrivance to score > political points than to execute justice. It is unfortunate that courts > all > the way to the apex court in India have fallen prey to this political > tussle. > > It is the appeal of the undersigned that restraint is followed in making > judgments and the fact be examined that NGOs themselves might have vested > interests. > > Zaheera Sheikh’s allegations against the NGO Citizens for Justice and > Peace > and its counselor Teesta Setalvad carry criminal ramifications. In her own > words Zaheera admitted that she perceived a threat to her life from > activist > Teesta Setalvad. She further narrated how she was abducted at knifepoint > at > the behest of Ms. Setalvad. In a rare admission she alleged *"Teesta > forced > me into changing my earlier deposition. She threatened me with dire > consequences if I did not follow her instructions."* > > For an NGO that belabors endlessly on communal harmony, Ms Setalvad’s > approach to the Best Bakery case appears not to be one of conciliation but > rooted in widening the communal chasm when one hears Zaheera narrate *“When > I asked her what she wanted, she said, 'You have to fight for your > community, for which even if you have to tell lies, you'll have to tell > lies > before court.”* Zaheera Sheikh has also charged Ms Setalvad of holding her > captive and threatening her of lynching! > > One must also note that since her allegation against Ms Setalvad, Zaheera > Sheikh has also sought the counsel and protection of National Committee > for > Minorities (NCM) and The National Commission for Women (NCW). She met with > Ms Poornima Advani of the NCW in the week of Nov 8-14 in this connection. > Ms > Advani it should be recalled has constantly fought for the human rights of > those affected by the Gujarat incidents. While, the Gujarat government has > been insidiously charged by all and sundry of having coerced Zaheera into > her latest volte-face - after her meeting Ms Advani welcomed Zaheera’s > stance and rejected allegations of illegal pressure by the Gujarat Govt. > She > confirmed to the press that *“Zaheera was under no pressure and was doing > her own things”.* > > It must be further noted that allegations of threat against Ms. Setalvad > are > not just from Zaheera Sheikh alone. A day after Zaheera Sheikh sought > police > protection from Ms. Setalvad, an accused in the case Dinesh Rajbhar told > special judge A M Thipsay that Setalvad had 'threatened' him while being > taken out of the court in Mumbai. The court has taken the complaint of Ms. > Setalvad’s threat in the words - *"Hum tum sab ko dekh lenge* (We will see > you)” - on record. > > It has been noticed several times that many NGOs in India have been > exposed > as tax shelters and sophisticated social swindles. It has also been noted > that many NGOs do have vested foreign interests whose ultimate interest is > what NGOs champion. It is our appeal therefore that the courts, based on > the > petitions by NGOs whose credentials may be questionable, not execute > landmark decisions. In light of the serious allegations the star witness > of > the Best Bakery has made against the NGO Citizens for Justice and Peace > and > its forerunner Teesta Setalvad, this becomes very important. > > > The role of the Ms Teesta Setalvad and her interest for state of India are > more than dubious. If anything, Ms. Teesta Setalvad is hardly an NGO and > driven impetuously against only a certain political ideology. She > publishes > “Communalism Combat”. Ostensibly a publication for communal harmony, its > real purpose and effect appear to be directed at communal polarization. > Sabrang Communications (Private) Ltd that she jointly operates with her > husband Javed Anand has a history of coordinating several political > activities with a common theme: attack democratically elected governments > in > India, and slander them abroad, and conduct anti-Indian propaganda. > > We also appeal to the CBI to investigate the funds received by Ms Setalvad > and her NGO for political pamphleteering. There have been indications that > Sabrang Communications has been soliciting foreign funding giving the > address of one SINGH foundation in the United States. In fact per Zaheera > Sheikh’s revelation to press persons, Ms. Setalvad even threatened Zaheera > with her monetary clout – as Zaheera narrated *"I told Teesta I would > lodge > a complaint against her with Vadodara police and expose her, but Teesta > replied, 'We are very rich and influential. You can't harm us that way.”* > > Who should we believe? The battle has been drawn out between a very > powerful > woman who is on the board of several government offices, is in close > association with corporate houses, has been felicitated overseas with > sundry > awards and in defence is a hapless young girl barely out of her teens, > bereaved and homeless. Ms Setalvad's loyalties are at best "divided" - she > has consistently used a secessionist map of India on her web-site and > viciously attacked Indian musicians who asked for equivalent access to > Pakistani markets, as offered to Pakistani musicians here. Her current > effort at undermining an indigent, inadequately educated girl, barely out > of > her teens, is avidly supported by Pakistanis and organizations that align > themselves with the NDF-ISI nexus. Do we really want such a person and her > coterie to affect our judicial system? > > This petition is also an appeal of the undersigned to the Press Council of > India to advise restrain on the astounding one-sidedness of press > reporting. > Even though Zahira Sheikh’s reputation appears tarnished with her constant > about faces, her allegations against Ms. Setalvad must be investigated > without prejudice. The press must be cautious in making slanted reports > that > may be construed as a defense of Ms. Setalvad. While the truth remains > muddied, speculation in the press is rife about Zaheera’s character, > stories > are being made up about greed and letting down her community. For example > with little or no corroborating evidence, India’s leading daily in English > had a sensational headline titled “'Zahira retracted for money'. Another > nationally syndicated columnist devoted an entire op-ed in defense of > Teesta > Setalvad without even the minimum of investigation into any of Zaheera’s > charges. If anything the press must be wary of bogus peace and human > rights > activists that abound in India working for foreign interests. > > We the undersigned strongly protest that we do not want the Indian > judicial > system, the investigating agencies and the press be held hostage by > individuals with questionable intentions, NGOs with unaccounted sources of > funding. Further, NGOs who have no accountability to anyone should not be > allowed to affect or even direct our judicial process, especially if they > have foreign funding. It is important that fly-by-night organizations like > one Ms. Setalvad has been running not malign and undermine India’s > judicial > system. > > > Sincerely, > > On Wed, Apr 15, 2009 at 12:11 AM, Anuj Bhuwania > wrote: > >> Dear all, >> >> It is perhaps worth noting that the only newspaper that reported the >> Court proceedings in such terms, is the Times of India and its sister >> publication Economic Times. Please find pasted below Teesta Setalvad's >> rebuttal to this Times of India news report quoted already in the >> first email posted on this thread. >> >> Best, >> anuj >> >> Rebuttal to the Times of India report, dated April 14, 2009: >> >> The report in The Times of India, Mumbai edition dated April 14, 2009, >> reportedly also published prominently in all its other editions >> titled, ‘NGOs, Teesta spiced up Gujarat riots cases: SIT’ is a clear >> example of irresponsible reportage. Intentionally or otherwise, the >> distorted report damages the reputation of a citizens’ group that has >> been recognized nationally and internationally for working assiduously >> to ensure justice to the victims of mass violence whether in case of >> the Gujarat carnage (2002), or the bomb blasts in Mumbai (2006 and >> 2008) or the communal carnage in Kandhamal district, Orissa (2008), >> irrespective of the caste or creed of the victims or the perpetrators. >> >> “The SIT led by former CBI director R K Raghavan told the Supreme >> Court on Monday…” reads the opening para of the report. The fact is >> that neither Sri Raghavan, nor any other SIT member was present at the >> apex court to “tell” it anything. Sri Dhananjay Mahapatra’s report >> could only be referring to a contention made in a four page note >> circulated by Ms Hemantika Wahi for the Gujarat Government. (A copy of >> the same is annexed). It was not a note prepared by SIT. The report is >> all the more shocking since Sri Mahapatra was present in the court and >> could not be unaware of this. >> >> The detailed report of SIT submitted to the Supreme Court on March 6, >> 2007 has not been available for study either to National Human Rights >> Commission (NHRC), the petitioners in this case, or the Citizens for >> Justice and Peace (CJP) who have intervened in this critical matter or >> to any in the media. Any reference to it is hence hearsay and it may >> amount to contempt of court to write about a report which the Court >> has specifically not made public. >> >> In its written note that the Gujarat state circulated in court >> yesterday, the state has given its brief comments on the SIT report. >> In para four of this note the Gujarat government note refers to >> alleged statements made by some witnesses in the Gulberg case before >> SIT that name accused other than those named by them in the written >> statements that were (according to the state of Gujarat) given to them >> by Teesta Setalvad and advocates. This is the version of the Gujarat >> state. Besides this, Mukul Rohatgi tried to make a populist speech in >> court saying that incidents like the Kauser Bano case etc never >> happened. The Supreme Court disregarded this argument and did not >> allow Mr.Rohatgi to read anything from the report. The court went on >> to state that they were not interested in personal allegations and >> only ensuring that, like in the course of the Zahira Shaikh case, the >> trials are fair, the truth comes out and the course of justice is >> served. >> >> It is necessary to recalled that in the course of the Best Bakery >> trial, too, the Gujarat government had tried to divert the court’s >> attention by engineering charges against Teesta Setalvad, secretary >> CJP and by implication the NGO. On Setalvad’s application to the apex >> court for a full fledged inquiry the report of the Registrar of the >> apex court exonerated Setalvad and the NGO completely. >> >> As reported by the rest of the national media, on Monday, ignoring Sri >> Rohatgi’s bid to side-step the main issues, the three-member bench of >> the Supreme Court remained focused on the modalities of setting up >> designated courts for the trial of the accused in the post-Godhra riot >> cases in Gujarat. Instead of highlighting the court proceedings, Sri >> Mahapatra chose to spice up his report focusing not on the >> deliberations or the intentions of the apex court but to promote the >> case of the Gujarat government. >> >> The moot question is whether or not 2,500 persons were killed in a >> ghastly perpetrated massacre following the tragic burning alive of 59 >> persons on the Sabarmati express; whether or not ex parliamentarian >> Ahsan Jafri was mutilated before being burnt alive, whether the bodies >> of the missing dead (over 220) have not been found or returned for >> dignified burial after seven long years? All the national media was >> witness to this national tragedy. >> >> In the interests of fair reportage and to ensure that the reputation >> of a citizens group committed to equity and justice is not >> deliberately vitiated before the trials commence, the newspaper should >> carry this rebuttal in full. A failure to do so will result in the >> columns of a national newspaper being used to distort facts, shape >> public perception and seek to influence the outcome of due process of >> law and justice to the victims of mass murder. >> >> (Statement by Citizens for Justice and Peace, Mumbai, April 14, 2009, >> Mumbai) >> >> We wish also that the following issues be highlighted by you in a box >> though the word length goes over your report. >> >> Pertinent issues ignored in the report: >> >> * The arrests of minister Dr Maya Kodnani and Dr Jaideep Patel in >> the past weeks were on the basis of SIT re-investigations. Twelve FIRs >> filed by witnesses naming these accused in 2002 had been clubbed into >> a magnum FIR by the Ahmedabad crime branch that had dropped the names >> of these powerful accused; >> * The arrests of investigating officer KG Erda in the Gulberg >> case and of other policemen in the other cases over the past months >> has meant the claims of witness survivors and legal rights groups, >> prima facie, are valid; >> * That this was one of the issues why the apex court has chosen >> to appoint SIT, the full scale subversion of the process of justice, >> from the removal of names of accused who’s names appeared in earlier >> statements simply because they enjoyed political patronage; the >> appointment of prosecutors with allegiances to the BJP and VHP which >> meant instead of promoting fair trial they sided with the politically >> powerful and protected accused; >> * More pertinently the tragic slaying of pregnant Kauser Bano >> at Naroda Patiya after slitting her womb was reported in Deccan >> Herald,(April 17, 2004) and The Indian Express, (March 23,2005) among >> others apart from finding place in innumerable reports including the >> one authored by the Concerned Citizens Tribunal-Crimes Against >> Humanity 2002 headed by two Supreme Court judges, Justices Krishna >> Iyer and PB Sawant. Similarly the British national case was similarly >> documented apart from being covered in The Pioneer, March 3, 2002 and >> The Hindu, April 23, 2002. >> >> >> >> >> >> On Tue, Apr 14, 2009 at 11:15 PM, Rakesh Iyer >> wrote: >> > Dear all >> > >> > The fact of the matter is that even official statistics show that more >> than >> > 1,000 died in these 'riots', if one were to call them that. However, a >> riot >> > is not organized but is a spontaneous reaction to an event or a chain >> > of >> > events which took place. This was a well planned genocide, for there >> > were >> > people talking on mobiles directing people to attack at various places, >> > police was sleeping or not functioning, the RAF could not be contacted >> > as >> > telephone lines were cut, and interestingly even many people are >> registered >> > as missing even now, 7 years after the gory incidents. >> > >> > Every time one talks about these, Godhra is mentioned. Was anybody >> > raped >> in >> > Godhra? Was anybody taunted in Godhra? Weren't the VHP workers creating >> > problems for other passengers by occupying reserved seats? What were >> > they >> > doing occupying reserved seats while having unreserved tickets for >> > themselves? Why was it so that a certain number of passengers could not >> be >> > identified days after the incident? Why was no official railway inquiry >> > ordered within 48 hours of the incident by the Railway Ministry, as is >> often >> > the case when any incident pertaining to this ministry takes place? >> > >> > Nobody answers these questions. >> > >> > Then about avenging Godhra. Even if one were to logically look at it, >> > why >> > should Godhra be avenged in Gujarat? It should be avenged in Godhra >> > only >> > (logically looking from the anguished ones' angle). Why was it required >> to >> > target Ahmedabad Muslims for what happened in Godhra? Did these Muslims >> go >> > and do it there? Or did they support their activities? >> > >> > And how are rapes justified as avenging Godhra? If that is the case, >> > then >> > wouldn't a Muslim who lost everything in such 'riots' be justified in >> > avenging it by raping the mother/sister of some member of this forum >> > (including me) just because he/she is a Hindu? Is that right? >> > >> > Teesta Satalvad or no Teesta Satalvad, what is required is punishment >> > of >> the >> > perpetrators in the strongest terms to set an example before the >> > society >> > that those who indulge in such violence would get what they deserve and >> > shouldn't expect any mercy. It should act as a case of impartial >> > justice >> > delivered in the quickest possible time. And if Godhra accused can be >> > put >> > under POTA, all those involved in such killings anywhere and anytime >> should >> > be punished under UAPA. >> > >> > I hope that the SIT achieves this to a certain extent, and I would like >> to >> > look at the report before making any remarks. Newspaper clippings and >> media >> > have a sense to distort the entire thing, and even a portion or >> > paragraph >> > can be cited to change the context in which the comments were put up. I >> > think the report is confidential as the matter is sub-judice. However, >> > if >> > the report is available, please do inform me (and indeed all of us) for >> the >> > same. >> > >> > And for me, justice is more important, irrespective of there is Teesta >> > or >> no >> > Teesta; Pawan Durani or no Pawan Durani; Aditya Raj Kaul or no Aditya >> > Raj >> > Kaul, Rakesh Iyer or no Rakesh Iyer. >> > >> > And as a society, that is the goal we must strive towards, not Ram >> > Mandir/Babri Masjid, not SEZ's or interlinking of rivers or other such >> > faulty schemes, not temples of Modern India or huge dams, but means to >> > improve livelihood of people and securing justice for them. >> > >> > Regards >> > >> > Rakesh >> > _________________________________________ >> > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. >> > Critiques & Collaborations >> > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with >> subscribe in the subject header. >> > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list >> > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> >> _________________________________________ >> reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. >> Critiques & Collaborations >> To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with >> subscribe in the subject header. >> To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list >> List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> >> > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > subscribe in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> From rajen882uppinangadi at gmail.com Wed Apr 15 13:26:18 2009 From: rajen882uppinangadi at gmail.com (Rajen Uppinangadi) Date: Wed, 15 Apr 2009 13:26:18 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Teesta Setalwad and her dance of death for gains. Message-ID: <61164a90904150056t769080d2g6ed4e7b04bc73f72@mail.gmail.com> Sir, what would you say about the "honest" Manmohan Singh who secured votes for his pet N-deal, dishonestly, having dinner at state cost with retiring speaker as the state he represents, Assam is having its tragedies of blasts.?Glutton who dines when citizens starve.? As to Theesta, her father Justice Setalwad was eminent jurist, used his wisdom for the governance of just laws and good adjudication. This pink loose chaddi of Theesta is so much of a fanatic that she has time for defending the culprits based on the faith, not on the innocence. Regards. Rajen. From aliens at dataone.in Wed Apr 15 13:24:46 2009 From: aliens at dataone.in (bipin) Date: Wed, 15 Apr 2009 13:24:46 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Teesta Setalvad cooked up macabre tales on Gujarat Riots : SIT References: <6353c690904140852p23812fa8v9e385fd53ff22ec6@mail.gmail.com> <1f9180970904141026h3a53f3f0m4f424e24fcadc756@mail.gmail.com> <6b79f1a70904141226pe7c05e4k1da7544c57be8aef@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <007601c9bd9f$7278d120$0201a8c0@limo> Dear Pawan, In a way its very true I am giving my point of view as under. NGO and human right activists’ activities are totally biased and they act with the guidance of their source of funds only. For ex Teesta’s NGO is working only for Gujarat riot, Mumbai ’92 riot or Kandhmal. The one did by communal forces according to them. They have never raised their voice for the victim of terrorist in India, Kashmir, Shikh riot etc. This shows their biased behavior only. Such foreign organizations are normally against the India to grow and such many movement is going on with foreign various trust funding. Many NGO’s and human right activists’ bread butter with such fund only. In case of Jaheera they have instigated to give false statement and by this way they have got much more additional funds from foreign missionaries Teesta promised Zahira to give handsome money for life long living. But, after following the Teesta’s path, Zahira did not get any money as promised. So, Zahira turned down in the court and what she was knowing really told to the court. Its absolutely true that at that time media, such NGO’s Human Right Activists has played a key role to hype and exaggerated this issue than the actual it is. Simple reason by doing this NGO and Human rights Activist had got huge funding. Someone arguing about the rape incidents occurred during 2002 Gujarat riots. Still not a single rape case registered and if it would have happened during that period is must be a part of normal rape incidence going on even today in large scale in India by goonda elements and nothing to do with riot occurred by way of reaction. Whenever, riot takes place this is very normal practice to make such allegation to give much more hype in the issue. thanks Bipin ----- Original Message ----- From: "Pawan Durani" To: "Anuj Bhuwania" Cc: Sent: Wednesday, April 15, 2009 12:56 AM Subject: Re: [Reader-list] Teesta Setalvad cooked up macabre tales on Gujarat Riots : SIT > An interesting petition i just found on internet ......No comments from my > side .....but the petition is worth reading............ > http://www.petitiononline.com/ngoi/petition.html > > To: Supreme Court Of India, CBI (India), Press Council Of India > > Appeal to maintain the sanctity of India's judicial system > > To: > > HON’BLE MR. JUSTICE R.C. LAHOTI, Chief Justice of Supreme Court Of India. > > SHRI U.S. MISRA, Director CBI > > HON’BLE MR. JUSTICE K. JAYACHANDRA REDDY, Chairman Press Council of India. > > As events in the trial of the Best Bakery case unfold, the man on the > street > looks on in askance where exactly the truth lies. On one side is a much > maligned but democratically elected government of Gujarat that is charged > and on the other is a highly pampered but suspicious NGO who leads the > attack and in the middle is a simple, 20-year old girl. The case > pertaining > to the Best Bakery massacre has become more of a contrivance to score > political points than to execute justice. It is unfortunate that courts > all > the way to the apex court in India have fallen prey to this political > tussle. > > It is the appeal of the undersigned that restraint is followed in making > judgments and the fact be examined that NGOs themselves might have vested > interests. > > Zaheera Sheikh’s allegations against the NGO Citizens for Justice and > Peace > and its counselor Teesta Setalvad carry criminal ramifications. In her own > words Zaheera admitted that she perceived a threat to her life from > activist > Teesta Setalvad. She further narrated how she was abducted at knifepoint > at > the behest of Ms. Setalvad. In a rare admission she alleged *"Teesta > forced > me into changing my earlier deposition. She threatened me with dire > consequences if I did not follow her instructions."* > > For an NGO that belabors endlessly on communal harmony, Ms Setalvad’s > approach to the Best Bakery case appears not to be one of conciliation but > rooted in widening the communal chasm when one hears Zaheera narrate *“When > I asked her what she wanted, she said, 'You have to fight for your > community, for which even if you have to tell lies, you'll have to tell > lies > before court.”* Zaheera Sheikh has also charged Ms Setalvad of holding her > captive and threatening her of lynching! > > One must also note that since her allegation against Ms Setalvad, Zaheera > Sheikh has also sought the counsel and protection of National Committee > for > Minorities (NCM) and The National Commission for Women (NCW). She met with > Ms Poornima Advani of the NCW in the week of Nov 8-14 in this connection. > Ms > Advani it should be recalled has constantly fought for the human rights of > those affected by the Gujarat incidents. While, the Gujarat government has > been insidiously charged by all and sundry of having coerced Zaheera into > her latest volte-face - after her meeting Ms Advani welcomed Zaheera’s > stance and rejected allegations of illegal pressure by the Gujarat Govt. > She > confirmed to the press that *“Zaheera was under no pressure and was doing > her own things”.* > > It must be further noted that allegations of threat against Ms. Setalvad > are > not just from Zaheera Sheikh alone. A day after Zaheera Sheikh sought > police > protection from Ms. Setalvad, an accused in the case Dinesh Rajbhar told > special judge A M Thipsay that Setalvad had 'threatened' him while being > taken out of the court in Mumbai. The court has taken the complaint of Ms. > Setalvad’s threat in the words - *"Hum tum sab ko dekh lenge* (We will see > you)” - on record. > > It has been noticed several times that many NGOs in India have been > exposed > as tax shelters and sophisticated social swindles. It has also been noted > that many NGOs do have vested foreign interests whose ultimate interest is > what NGOs champion. It is our appeal therefore that the courts, based on > the > petitions by NGOs whose credentials may be questionable, not execute > landmark decisions. In light of the serious allegations the star witness > of > the Best Bakery has made against the NGO Citizens for Justice and Peace > and > its forerunner Teesta Setalvad, this becomes very important. > > > The role of the Ms Teesta Setalvad and her interest for state of India are > more than dubious. If anything, Ms. Teesta Setalvad is hardly an NGO and > driven impetuously against only a certain political ideology. She > publishes > “Communalism Combat”. Ostensibly a publication for communal harmony, its > real purpose and effect appear to be directed at communal polarization. > Sabrang Communications (Private) Ltd that she jointly operates with her > husband Javed Anand has a history of coordinating several political > activities with a common theme: attack democratically elected governments > in > India, and slander them abroad, and conduct anti-Indian propaganda. > > We also appeal to the CBI to investigate the funds received by Ms Setalvad > and her NGO for political pamphleteering. There have been indications that > Sabrang Communications has been soliciting foreign funding giving the > address of one SINGH foundation in the United States. In fact per Zaheera > Sheikh’s revelation to press persons, Ms. Setalvad even threatened Zaheera > with her monetary clout – as Zaheera narrated *"I told Teesta I would > lodge > a complaint against her with Vadodara police and expose her, but Teesta > replied, 'We are very rich and influential. You can't harm us that way.”* > > Who should we believe? The battle has been drawn out between a very > powerful > woman who is on the board of several government offices, is in close > association with corporate houses, has been felicitated overseas with > sundry > awards and in defence is a hapless young girl barely out of her teens, > bereaved and homeless. Ms Setalvad's loyalties are at best "divided" - she > has consistently used a secessionist map of India on her web-site and > viciously attacked Indian musicians who asked for equivalent access to > Pakistani markets, as offered to Pakistani musicians here. Her current > effort at undermining an indigent, inadequately educated girl, barely out > of > her teens, is avidly supported by Pakistanis and organizations that align > themselves with the NDF-ISI nexus. Do we really want such a person and her > coterie to affect our judicial system? > > This petition is also an appeal of the undersigned to the Press Council of > India to advise restrain on the astounding one-sidedness of press > reporting. > Even though Zahira Sheikh’s reputation appears tarnished with her constant > about faces, her allegations against Ms. Setalvad must be investigated > without prejudice. The press must be cautious in making slanted reports > that > may be construed as a defense of Ms. Setalvad. While the truth remains > muddied, speculation in the press is rife about Zaheera’s character, > stories > are being made up about greed and letting down her community. For example > with little or no corroborating evidence, India’s leading daily in English > had a sensational headline titled “'Zahira retracted for money'. Another > nationally syndicated columnist devoted an entire op-ed in defense of > Teesta > Setalvad without even the minimum of investigation into any of Zaheera’s > charges. If anything the press must be wary of bogus peace and human > rights > activists that abound in India working for foreign interests. > > We the undersigned strongly protest that we do not want the Indian > judicial > system, the investigating agencies and the press be held hostage by > individuals with questionable intentions, NGOs with unaccounted sources of > funding. Further, NGOs who have no accountability to anyone should not be > allowed to affect or even direct our judicial process, especially if they > have foreign funding. It is important that fly-by-night organizations like > one Ms. Setalvad has been running not malign and undermine India’s > judicial > system. > > > Sincerely, > > On Wed, Apr 15, 2009 at 12:11 AM, Anuj Bhuwania > wrote: > >> Dear all, >> >> It is perhaps worth noting that the only newspaper that reported the >> Court proceedings in such terms, is the Times of India and its sister >> publication Economic Times. Please find pasted below Teesta Setalvad's >> rebuttal to this Times of India news report quoted already in the >> first email posted on this thread. >> >> Best, >> anuj >> >> Rebuttal to the Times of India report, dated April 14, 2009: >> >> The report in The Times of India, Mumbai edition dated April 14, 2009, >> reportedly also published prominently in all its other editions >> titled, ‘NGOs, Teesta spiced up Gujarat riots cases: SIT’ is a clear >> example of irresponsible reportage. Intentionally or otherwise, the >> distorted report damages the reputation of a citizens’ group that has >> been recognized nationally and internationally for working assiduously >> to ensure justice to the victims of mass violence whether in case of >> the Gujarat carnage (2002), or the bomb blasts in Mumbai (2006 and >> 2008) or the communal carnage in Kandhamal district, Orissa (2008), >> irrespective of the caste or creed of the victims or the perpetrators. >> >> “The SIT led by former CBI director R K Raghavan told the Supreme >> Court on Monday…” reads the opening para of the report. The fact is >> that neither Sri Raghavan, nor any other SIT member was present at the >> apex court to “tell” it anything. Sri Dhananjay Mahapatra’s report >> could only be referring to a contention made in a four page note >> circulated by Ms Hemantika Wahi for the Gujarat Government. (A copy of >> the same is annexed). It was not a note prepared by SIT. The report is >> all the more shocking since Sri Mahapatra was present in the court and >> could not be unaware of this. >> >> The detailed report of SIT submitted to the Supreme Court on March 6, >> 2007 has not been available for study either to National Human Rights >> Commission (NHRC), the petitioners in this case, or the Citizens for >> Justice and Peace (CJP) who have intervened in this critical matter or >> to any in the media. Any reference to it is hence hearsay and it may >> amount to contempt of court to write about a report which the Court >> has specifically not made public. >> >> In its written note that the Gujarat state circulated in court >> yesterday, the state has given its brief comments on the SIT report. >> In para four of this note the Gujarat government note refers to >> alleged statements made by some witnesses in the Gulberg case before >> SIT that name accused other than those named by them in the written >> statements that were (according to the state of Gujarat) given to them >> by Teesta Setalvad and advocates. This is the version of the Gujarat >> state. Besides this, Mukul Rohatgi tried to make a populist speech in >> court saying that incidents like the Kauser Bano case etc never >> happened. The Supreme Court disregarded this argument and did not >> allow Mr.Rohatgi to read anything from the report. The court went on >> to state that they were not interested in personal allegations and >> only ensuring that, like in the course of the Zahira Shaikh case, the >> trials are fair, the truth comes out and the course of justice is >> served. >> >> It is necessary to recalled that in the course of the Best Bakery >> trial, too, the Gujarat government had tried to divert the court’s >> attention by engineering charges against Teesta Setalvad, secretary >> CJP and by implication the NGO. On Setalvad’s application to the apex >> court for a full fledged inquiry the report of the Registrar of the >> apex court exonerated Setalvad and the NGO completely. >> >> As reported by the rest of the national media, on Monday, ignoring Sri >> Rohatgi’s bid to side-step the main issues, the three-member bench of >> the Supreme Court remained focused on the modalities of setting up >> designated courts for the trial of the accused in the post-Godhra riot >> cases in Gujarat. Instead of highlighting the court proceedings, Sri >> Mahapatra chose to spice up his report focusing not on the >> deliberations or the intentions of the apex court but to promote the >> case of the Gujarat government. >> >> The moot question is whether or not 2,500 persons were killed in a >> ghastly perpetrated massacre following the tragic burning alive of 59 >> persons on the Sabarmati express; whether or not ex parliamentarian >> Ahsan Jafri was mutilated before being burnt alive, whether the bodies >> of the missing dead (over 220) have not been found or returned for >> dignified burial after seven long years? All the national media was >> witness to this national tragedy. >> >> In the interests of fair reportage and to ensure that the reputation >> of a citizens group committed to equity and justice is not >> deliberately vitiated before the trials commence, the newspaper should >> carry this rebuttal in full. A failure to do so will result in the >> columns of a national newspaper being used to distort facts, shape >> public perception and seek to influence the outcome of due process of >> law and justice to the victims of mass murder. >> >> (Statement by Citizens for Justice and Peace, Mumbai, April 14, 2009, >> Mumbai) >> >> We wish also that the following issues be highlighted by you in a box >> though the word length goes over your report. >> >> Pertinent issues ignored in the report: >> >> * The arrests of minister Dr Maya Kodnani and Dr Jaideep Patel in >> the past weeks were on the basis of SIT re-investigations. Twelve FIRs >> filed by witnesses naming these accused in 2002 had been clubbed into >> a magnum FIR by the Ahmedabad crime branch that had dropped the names >> of these powerful accused; >> * The arrests of investigating officer KG Erda in the Gulberg >> case and of other policemen in the other cases over the past months >> has meant the claims of witness survivors and legal rights groups, >> prima facie, are valid; >> * That this was one of the issues why the apex court has chosen >> to appoint SIT, the full scale subversion of the process of justice, >> from the removal of names of accused who’s names appeared in earlier >> statements simply because they enjoyed political patronage; the >> appointment of prosecutors with allegiances to the BJP and VHP which >> meant instead of promoting fair trial they sided with the politically >> powerful and protected accused; >> * More pertinently the tragic slaying of pregnant Kauser Bano >> at Naroda Patiya after slitting her womb was reported in Deccan >> Herald,(April 17, 2004) and The Indian Express, (March 23,2005) among >> others apart from finding place in innumerable reports including the >> one authored by the Concerned Citizens Tribunal-Crimes Against >> Humanity 2002 headed by two Supreme Court judges, Justices Krishna >> Iyer and PB Sawant. Similarly the British national case was similarly >> documented apart from being covered in The Pioneer, March 3, 2002 and >> The Hindu, April 23, 2002. >> >> >> >> >> >> On Tue, Apr 14, 2009 at 11:15 PM, Rakesh Iyer >> wrote: >> > Dear all >> > >> > The fact of the matter is that even official statistics show that more >> than >> > 1,000 died in these 'riots', if one were to call them that. However, a >> riot >> > is not organized but is a spontaneous reaction to an event or a chain >> > of >> > events which took place. This was a well planned genocide, for there >> > were >> > people talking on mobiles directing people to attack at various places, >> > police was sleeping or not functioning, the RAF could not be contacted >> > as >> > telephone lines were cut, and interestingly even many people are >> registered >> > as missing even now, 7 years after the gory incidents. >> > >> > Every time one talks about these, Godhra is mentioned. Was anybody >> > raped >> in >> > Godhra? Was anybody taunted in Godhra? Weren't the VHP workers creating >> > problems for other passengers by occupying reserved seats? What were >> > they >> > doing occupying reserved seats while having unreserved tickets for >> > themselves? Why was it so that a certain number of passengers could not >> be >> > identified days after the incident? Why was no official railway inquiry >> > ordered within 48 hours of the incident by the Railway Ministry, as is >> often >> > the case when any incident pertaining to this ministry takes place? >> > >> > Nobody answers these questions. >> > >> > Then about avenging Godhra. Even if one were to logically look at it, >> > why >> > should Godhra be avenged in Gujarat? It should be avenged in Godhra >> > only >> > (logically looking from the anguished ones' angle). Why was it required >> to >> > target Ahmedabad Muslims for what happened in Godhra? Did these Muslims >> go >> > and do it there? Or did they support their activities? >> > >> > And how are rapes justified as avenging Godhra? If that is the case, >> > then >> > wouldn't a Muslim who lost everything in such 'riots' be justified in >> > avenging it by raping the mother/sister of some member of this forum >> > (including me) just because he/she is a Hindu? Is that right? >> > >> > Teesta Satalvad or no Teesta Satalvad, what is required is punishment >> > of >> the >> > perpetrators in the strongest terms to set an example before the >> > society >> > that those who indulge in such violence would get what they deserve and >> > shouldn't expect any mercy. It should act as a case of impartial >> > justice >> > delivered in the quickest possible time. And if Godhra accused can be >> > put >> > under POTA, all those involved in such killings anywhere and anytime >> should >> > be punished under UAPA. >> > >> > I hope that the SIT achieves this to a certain extent, and I would like >> to >> > look at the report before making any remarks. Newspaper clippings and >> media >> > have a sense to distort the entire thing, and even a portion or >> > paragraph >> > can be cited to change the context in which the comments were put up. I >> > think the report is confidential as the matter is sub-judice. However, >> > if >> > the report is available, please do inform me (and indeed all of us) for >> the >> > same. >> > >> > And for me, justice is more important, irrespective of there is Teesta >> > or >> no >> > Teesta; Pawan Durani or no Pawan Durani; Aditya Raj Kaul or no Aditya >> > Raj >> > Kaul, Rakesh Iyer or no Rakesh Iyer. >> > >> > And as a society, that is the goal we must strive towards, not Ram >> > Mandir/Babri Masjid, not SEZ's or interlinking of rivers or other such >> > faulty schemes, not temples of Modern India or huge dams, but means to >> > improve livelihood of people and securing justice for them. >> > >> > Regards >> > >> > Rakesh >> > _________________________________________ >> > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. >> > Critiques & Collaborations >> > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with >> subscribe in the subject header. >> > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list >> > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> >> _________________________________________ >> reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. >> Critiques & Collaborations >> To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with >> subscribe in the subject header. >> To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list >> List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> >> > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > subscribe in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> From javedmasoo at gmail.com Wed Apr 15 14:06:35 2009 From: javedmasoo at gmail.com (M Javed) Date: Wed, 15 Apr 2009 14:06:35 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Teesta Setalvad cooked up macabre tales on Gujarat Riots : SIT In-Reply-To: <006a01c9bd9f$58ce13c0$0201a8c0@limo> References: <6353c690904140852p23812fa8v9e385fd53ff22ec6@mail.gmail.com> <1f9180970904141026h3a53f3f0m4f424e24fcadc756@mail.gmail.com> <6b79f1a70904141226pe7c05e4k1da7544c57be8aef@mail.gmail.com> <006a01c9bd9f$58ce13c0$0201a8c0@limo> Message-ID: Dear Bipin If there is a house on fire and you have to distinguish the fire, would you finish putting out the fire in one house or leave it burning and attend to other houses too. Why should you expect one person or one NGO to fight for the cause of every one. Why don't you stand up and start fighting the fire in other houses if you are so concerned about them. NGO-bashing has become very fashionable these days. It is true that some NGOs make their bread and butter (and cheese) out of foreign funding for not-so honest causes. But this also undermines the honest work being done by so many individuals and institutions in the rural India. I also find your calling rape "a normal practice during such situations" a very disturbing statement - my God. If something happens to your sister or wife or mother or daughter, will you call it a normal practice? Javed On Wed, Apr 15, 2009 at 1:24 PM, bipin wrote: > Dear Pawan, > > In a way its very true I am giving my point of view as under. > > NGO and human right activists’ activities are totally biased and they act > with the guidance of their source of funds only. For ex Teesta’s NGO is > working only for Gujarat riot, Mumbai ’92 riot or Kandhmal. The one did by > communal forces according to them. They have never raised their voice for > the victim of terrorist in India, Kashmir, Shikh riot etc. This shows their > biased behavior only. Such foreign organizations are normally against the > India to grow and such many movement is going on with foreign various trust > funding. Many NGO’s and human right activists’ bread butter with such fund > only. > > In case of Jaheera they have instigated to give false statement and by this > way they have got much more additional funds from foreign missionaries > Teesta promised Zahira to give handsome money for life long living. But, > after following the Teesta’s path, Zahira did not get any money as promised. > So, Zahira turned down in the court and what she was knowing really told to > the court. > > Its absolutely true that at that time media, such NGO’s Human Right > Activists has played a key role to hype and exaggerated this issue than the > actual it is. Simple reason by doing this NGO and Human rights Activist had > got huge funding. > > Someone arguing about the rape incidents occurred during 2002 Gujarat riots. > Still not a single rape case registered and if it would have happened during > that period is must be a part of normal rape incidence going on even today > in large scale in India by goonda elements and nothing to do with riot > occurred by way of reaction. Whenever, riot takes place this is very normal > practice to make such allegation to give much more hype in the issue. > > thanks > Bipin > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Pawan Durani" > To: "Anuj Bhuwania" > Cc: > Sent: Wednesday, April 15, 2009 12:56 AM > Subject: Re: [Reader-list] Teesta Setalvad cooked up macabre tales on > Gujarat Riots : SIT > > >> An interesting petition i just found on internet ......No comments from my >> side .....but the petition is worth reading............ >> http://www.petitiononline.com/ngoi/petition.html >> >> To:  Supreme Court Of India, CBI (India), Press Council Of India >> >> Appeal to maintain the sanctity of India's judicial system >> >> To: >> >> HON’BLE MR. JUSTICE R.C. LAHOTI, Chief Justice of Supreme Court Of India. >> >> SHRI U.S. MISRA, Director CBI >> >> HON’BLE MR. JUSTICE K. JAYACHANDRA REDDY, Chairman Press Council of India. >> >> As events in the trial of the Best Bakery case unfold, the man on the >> street >> looks on in askance where exactly the truth lies. On one side is a much >> maligned but democratically elected government of Gujarat that is charged >> and on the other is a highly pampered but suspicious NGO who leads the >> attack and in the middle is a simple, 20-year old girl. The case >> pertaining >> to the Best Bakery massacre has become more of a contrivance to score >> political points than to execute justice. It is unfortunate that courts >> all >> the way to the apex court in India have fallen prey to this political >> tussle. >> >> It is the appeal of the undersigned that restraint is followed in making >> judgments and the fact be examined that NGOs themselves might have vested >> interests. >> >> Zaheera Sheikh’s allegations against the NGO Citizens for Justice and >> Peace >> and its counselor Teesta Setalvad carry criminal ramifications. In her own >> words Zaheera admitted that she perceived a threat to her life from >> activist >> Teesta Setalvad. She further narrated how she was abducted at knifepoint >> at >> the behest of Ms. Setalvad. In a rare admission she alleged *"Teesta >> forced >> me into changing my earlier deposition. She threatened me with dire >> consequences if I did not follow her instructions."* >> >> For an NGO that belabors endlessly on communal harmony, Ms Setalvad’s >> approach to the Best Bakery case appears not to be one of conciliation but >> rooted in widening the communal chasm when one hears Zaheera narrate *“When >> I asked her what she wanted, she said, 'You have to fight for your >> community, for which even if you have to tell lies, you'll have to tell >> lies >> before court.”* Zaheera Sheikh has also charged Ms Setalvad of holding her >> captive and threatening her of lynching! >> >> One must also note that since her allegation against Ms Setalvad, Zaheera >> Sheikh has also sought the counsel and protection of National Committee >> for >> Minorities (NCM) and The National Commission for Women (NCW). She met with >> Ms Poornima Advani of the NCW in the week of Nov 8-14 in this connection. >> Ms >> Advani it should be recalled has constantly fought for the human rights of >> those affected by the Gujarat incidents. While, the Gujarat government has >> been insidiously charged by all and sundry of having coerced Zaheera into >> her latest volte-face - after her meeting Ms Advani welcomed Zaheera’s >> stance and rejected allegations of illegal pressure by the Gujarat Govt. >> She >> confirmed to the press that *“Zaheera was under no pressure and was doing >> her own things”.* >> >> It must be further noted that allegations of threat against Ms. Setalvad >> are >> not just from Zaheera Sheikh alone. A day after Zaheera Sheikh sought >> police >> protection from Ms. Setalvad, an accused in the case Dinesh Rajbhar told >> special judge A M Thipsay that Setalvad had 'threatened' him while being >> taken out of the court in Mumbai. The court has taken the complaint of Ms. >> Setalvad’s threat in the words - *"Hum tum sab ko dekh lenge* (We will see >> you)” - on record. >> >> It has been noticed several times that many NGOs in India have been >> exposed >> as tax shelters and sophisticated social swindles. It has also been noted >> that many NGOs do have vested foreign interests whose ultimate interest is >> what NGOs champion. It is our appeal therefore that the courts, based on >> the >> petitions by NGOs whose credentials may be questionable, not execute >> landmark decisions. In light of the serious allegations the star witness >> of >> the Best Bakery has made against the NGO Citizens for Justice and Peace >> and >> its forerunner Teesta Setalvad, this becomes very important. >> >> >> The role of the Ms Teesta Setalvad and her interest for state of India are >> more than dubious. If anything, Ms. Teesta Setalvad is hardly an NGO and >> driven impetuously against only a certain political ideology. She >> publishes >> “Communalism Combat”. Ostensibly a publication for communal harmony, its >> real purpose and effect appear to be directed at communal polarization. >> Sabrang Communications (Private) Ltd that she jointly operates with her >> husband Javed Anand has a history of coordinating several political >> activities with a common theme: attack democratically elected governments >> in >> India, and slander them abroad, and conduct anti-Indian propaganda. >> >> We also appeal to the CBI to investigate the funds received by Ms Setalvad >> and her NGO for political pamphleteering. There have been indications that >> Sabrang Communications has been soliciting foreign funding giving the >> address of one SINGH foundation in the United States. In fact per Zaheera >> Sheikh’s revelation to press persons, Ms. Setalvad even threatened Zaheera >> with her monetary clout – as Zaheera narrated *"I told Teesta I would >> lodge >> a complaint against her with Vadodara police and expose her, but Teesta >> replied, 'We are very rich and influential. You can't harm us that way.”* >> >> Who should we believe? The battle has been drawn out between a very >> powerful >> woman who is on the board of several government offices, is in close >> association with corporate houses, has been felicitated overseas with >> sundry >> awards and in defence is a hapless young girl barely out of her teens, >> bereaved and homeless. Ms Setalvad's loyalties are at best "divided" - she >> has consistently used a secessionist map of India on her web-site and >> viciously attacked Indian musicians who asked for equivalent access to >> Pakistani markets, as offered to Pakistani musicians here. Her current >> effort at undermining an indigent, inadequately educated girl, barely out >> of >> her teens, is avidly supported by Pakistanis and organizations that align >> themselves with the NDF-ISI nexus. Do we really want such a person and her >> coterie to affect our judicial system? >> >> This petition is also an appeal of the undersigned to the Press Council of >> India to advise restrain on the astounding one-sidedness of press >> reporting. >> Even though Zahira Sheikh’s reputation appears tarnished with her constant >> about faces, her allegations against Ms. Setalvad must be investigated >> without prejudice. The press must be cautious in making slanted reports >> that >> may be construed as a defense of Ms. Setalvad. While the truth remains >> muddied, speculation in the press is rife about Zaheera’s character, >> stories >> are being made up about greed and letting down her community. For example >> with little or no corroborating evidence, India’s leading daily in English >> had a sensational headline titled “'Zahira retracted for money'. Another >> nationally syndicated columnist devoted an entire op-ed in defense of >> Teesta >> Setalvad without even the minimum of investigation into any of Zaheera’s >> charges. If anything the press must be wary of bogus peace and human >> rights >> activists that abound in India working for foreign interests. >> >> We the undersigned strongly protest that we do not want the Indian >> judicial >> system, the investigating agencies and the press be held hostage by >> individuals with questionable intentions, NGOs with unaccounted sources of >> funding. Further, NGOs who have no accountability to anyone should not be >> allowed to affect or even direct our judicial process, especially if they >> have foreign funding. It is important that fly-by-night organizations like >> one Ms. Setalvad has been running not malign and undermine India’s >> judicial >> system. >> >> >> Sincerely, >> >> On Wed, Apr 15, 2009 at 12:11 AM, Anuj Bhuwania >> wrote: >> >>> Dear all, >>> >>> It is perhaps worth noting that the only newspaper that reported the >>> Court proceedings in such terms, is the  Times of India and its sister >>> publication Economic Times. Please find pasted below Teesta Setalvad's >>> rebuttal to this Times of India news report quoted already in the >>> first email posted on this thread. >>> >>> Best, >>> anuj >>> >>> Rebuttal  to the Times of India report,  dated April 14, 2009: >>> >>> The report in The Times of India, Mumbai edition dated April 14, 2009, >>> reportedly also published prominently in all its other editions >>> titled, ‘NGOs, Teesta spiced up Gujarat riots cases: SIT’ is a clear >>> example of irresponsible reportage. Intentionally or otherwise, the >>> distorted report damages the reputation of a citizens’ group that has >>> been recognized nationally and internationally for working assiduously >>> to ensure justice to the victims of mass violence whether in case of >>> the Gujarat carnage (2002), or the bomb blasts in Mumbai (2006 and >>> 2008) or the communal carnage in Kandhamal district, Orissa (2008), >>> irrespective of the caste or creed of the victims or the perpetrators. >>> >>> “The SIT led by former CBI director R K Raghavan told the Supreme >>> Court on Monday…” reads the opening para of the report. The fact is >>> that neither Sri Raghavan, nor any other SIT member was present at the >>> apex court to “tell” it anything. Sri Dhananjay Mahapatra’s report >>> could only be referring to a contention made in a four page note >>> circulated by Ms Hemantika Wahi for the Gujarat Government. (A copy of >>> the same is annexed). It was not a note prepared by SIT. The report is >>> all the more shocking since Sri Mahapatra was present in the court and >>> could not be unaware of this. >>> >>> The detailed report of SIT submitted to the Supreme Court on March 6, >>> 2007 has not been available for study either to National Human Rights >>> Commission (NHRC), the petitioners in this case, or the Citizens for >>> Justice and Peace (CJP) who have intervened in this critical matter or >>> to any in the media. Any reference to it is hence hearsay and it may >>> amount to contempt of court to write about a report which the Court >>> has specifically not made public. >>> >>> In its written note that the Gujarat state circulated in court >>> yesterday, the state has given its brief comments on the SIT report. >>> In para four of this note the Gujarat government note refers to >>> alleged statements made by some witnesses in the Gulberg case before >>> SIT that name accused other than those named by them in the written >>> statements that were (according to the state of Gujarat) given to them >>> by Teesta Setalvad and advocates. This is the version of the Gujarat >>> state. Besides this, Mukul Rohatgi tried to make a populist speech in >>> court saying that incidents like the Kauser Bano case etc never >>> happened.  The Supreme Court disregarded this argument and did not >>> allow Mr.Rohatgi to read anything from the report. The court went on >>> to state that they were not interested in personal allegations and >>> only ensuring that, like in the course of the Zahira Shaikh case, the >>> trials are fair, the truth comes out and the course of justice is >>> served. >>> >>> It is necessary to recalled that in the course of the Best Bakery >>> trial, too, the Gujarat government had tried to divert the court’s >>> attention by engineering charges against Teesta Setalvad, secretary >>> CJP and by implication the NGO. On Setalvad’s application to the apex >>> court for a full fledged inquiry the report of the Registrar of the >>> apex court exonerated Setalvad and the NGO completely. >>> >>> As reported by the rest of the national media, on Monday, ignoring Sri >>> Rohatgi’s bid to side-step the main issues, the three-member bench of >>> the Supreme Court remained focused on the modalities of setting up >>> designated courts for the trial of the accused in the post-Godhra riot >>> cases in Gujarat. Instead of highlighting the court proceedings, Sri >>> Mahapatra chose to spice up his report focusing not on the >>> deliberations or the intentions of the apex court but to promote the >>> case of the Gujarat government. >>> >>> The moot question is whether or not 2,500 persons were killed in a >>> ghastly perpetrated massacre following the tragic burning alive of 59 >>> persons on the Sabarmati express; whether or not ex parliamentarian >>> Ahsan Jafri was mutilated before being burnt alive, whether the bodies >>> of the missing dead (over 220) have not been found or returned for >>> dignified burial after seven long years? All the national media was >>> witness to this national tragedy. >>> >>>  In the interests of fair reportage and to ensure that the reputation >>> of a citizens group committed to equity and justice is not >>> deliberately vitiated before the trials commence, the newspaper should >>> carry this rebuttal in full. A failure to do so will result in the >>> columns of a national newspaper being used to distort facts, shape >>> public perception and seek to influence the outcome of due process of >>> law and justice to the victims of mass murder. >>> >>> (Statement by Citizens for Justice and Peace, Mumbai, April 14, 2009, >>> Mumbai) >>> >>> We wish also that the following issues be highlighted by you in a box >>> though the word length goes over your report. >>> >>> Pertinent issues ignored in the report: >>> >>>    * The arrests of minister Dr Maya Kodnani and Dr Jaideep Patel in >>> the past weeks were on the basis of SIT re-investigations. Twelve FIRs >>> filed by witnesses naming these accused in 2002 had been clubbed into >>> a magnum FIR by the Ahmedabad crime branch that had dropped the names >>> of these powerful accused; >>>    *   The arrests of investigating officer KG Erda in the Gulberg >>> case and of other policemen in the other cases over the past months >>> has meant the claims of witness survivors and legal rights groups, >>> prima facie, are valid; >>>    *  That this was one of the issues why the apex court has chosen >>> to appoint SIT, the full scale subversion of the process of justice, >>> from the removal of names of accused who’s names appeared in earlier >>> statements simply because they enjoyed political patronage; the >>> appointment of prosecutors with allegiances to the BJP and VHP which >>> meant instead of promoting fair trial they sided with the politically >>> powerful and protected accused; >>>    *    More pertinently the tragic slaying of pregnant Kauser Bano >>> at Naroda Patiya after slitting her womb was reported  in Deccan >>> Herald,(April 17, 2004) and The Indian Express, (March 23,2005) among >>> others apart from finding place in innumerable reports including the >>> one authored by the Concerned Citizens Tribunal-Crimes Against >>> Humanity 2002 headed by two Supreme Court judges, Justices Krishna >>> Iyer and PB Sawant. Similarly the British national case was similarly >>> documented apart from being covered in The Pioneer, March 3, 2002 and >>> The Hindu, April 23, 2002. >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> On Tue, Apr 14, 2009 at 11:15 PM, Rakesh Iyer >>> wrote: >>> > Dear all >>> > >>> > The fact of the matter is that even official statistics show that more >>> than >>> > 1,000 died in these 'riots', if one were to call them that. However, a >>> riot >>> > is not organized but is a spontaneous reaction to an event or a chain >>> > of >>> > events which took place. This was a well planned genocide, for there >>> > were >>> > people talking on mobiles directing people to attack at various places, >>> > police was sleeping or not functioning, the RAF could not be contacted >>> > as >>> > telephone lines were cut, and interestingly even many people are >>> registered >>> > as missing even now, 7 years after the gory incidents. >>> > >>> > Every time one talks about these, Godhra is mentioned. Was anybody >>> > raped >>> in >>> > Godhra? Was anybody taunted in Godhra? Weren't the VHP workers creating >>> > problems for other passengers by occupying reserved seats? What were >>> > they >>> > doing occupying reserved seats while having unreserved tickets for >>> > themselves? Why was it so that a certain number of passengers could not >>> be >>> > identified days after the incident? Why was no official railway inquiry >>> > ordered within 48 hours of the incident by the Railway Ministry, as is >>> often >>> > the case when any incident pertaining to this ministry takes place? >>> > >>> > Nobody answers these questions. >>> > >>> > Then about avenging Godhra. Even if one were to logically look at it, >>> > why >>> > should Godhra be avenged in Gujarat? It should be avenged in Godhra >>> > only >>> > (logically looking from the anguished ones' angle). Why was it required >>> to >>> > target Ahmedabad Muslims for what happened in Godhra? Did these Muslims >>> go >>> > and do it there? Or did they support their activities? >>> > >>> > And how are rapes justified as avenging Godhra? If that is the case, >>> > then >>> > wouldn't a Muslim who lost everything in such 'riots' be justified in >>> > avenging it by raping the mother/sister of some member of this forum >>> > (including me) just because he/she is a Hindu? Is that right? >>> > >>> > Teesta Satalvad or no Teesta Satalvad, what is required is punishment >>> > of >>> the >>> > perpetrators in the strongest terms to set an example before the >>> > society >>> > that those who indulge in such violence would get what they deserve and >>> > shouldn't expect any mercy. It should act as a case of impartial >>> > justice >>> > delivered in the quickest possible time. And if Godhra accused can be >>> > put >>> > under POTA, all those involved in such killings anywhere and anytime >>> should >>> > be punished under UAPA. >>> > >>> > I hope that the SIT achieves this to a certain extent, and I would like >>> to >>> > look at the report before making any remarks. Newspaper clippings and >>> media >>> > have a sense to distort the entire thing, and even a portion or >>> > paragraph >>> > can be cited to change the context in which the comments were put up. I >>> > think the report is confidential as the matter is sub-judice. However, >>> > if >>> > the report is available, please do inform me (and indeed all of us) for >>> the >>> > same. >>> > >>> > And for me, justice is more important, irrespective of there is Teesta >>> > or >>> no >>> > Teesta; Pawan Durani or no Pawan Durani; Aditya Raj Kaul or no Aditya >>> > Raj >>> > Kaul, Rakesh Iyer or no Rakesh Iyer. >>> > >>> > And as a society, that is the goal we must strive towards, not Ram >>> > Mandir/Babri Masjid, not SEZ's or interlinking of rivers or other such >>> > faulty schemes, not temples of Modern India or huge dams, but means to >>> > improve livelihood of people and securing justice for them. >>> > >>> > Regards >>> > >>> > Rakesh >>> > _________________________________________ >>> > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. >>> > Critiques & Collaborations >>> > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with >>> subscribe in the subject header. >>> > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list >>> > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> >>> _________________________________________ >>> reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. >>> Critiques & Collaborations >>> To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with >>> subscribe in the subject header. >>> To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list >>> List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> >>> >> _________________________________________ >> reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. >> Critiques & Collaborations >> To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with >> subscribe in the subject header. >> To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list >> List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> > > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with subscribe in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> From rakesh.rnbdj at gmail.com Wed Apr 15 14:50:32 2009 From: rakesh.rnbdj at gmail.com (Rakesh Iyer) Date: Wed, 15 Apr 2009 14:50:32 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Teesta Setalvad cooked up macabre tales on Gujarat Riots : SIT In-Reply-To: <006a01c9bd9f$58ce13c0$0201a8c0@limo> References: <6353c690904140852p23812fa8v9e385fd53ff22ec6@mail.gmail.com> <1f9180970904141026h3a53f3f0m4f424e24fcadc756@mail.gmail.com> <6b79f1a70904141226pe7c05e4k1da7544c57be8aef@mail.gmail.com> <006a01c9bd9f$58ce13c0$0201a8c0@limo> Message-ID: Dear Bipin jee First of all, cases were not registered of rape by the police, not because the girl's family didn't want to in many cases, although the latter has also been one of the reasons for not registering cases. What's more, for those cases which were registered, number of cases were filed together in a single chargesheet, which is wrong, as cases for different incidents should be registered differently, which was not the case. Last but not the least, those who indulged in rape or other violence were declared absconding, when they were actually in the very village/city/locality conducting their business through shops!!! HOWZZAT!! Moreover, the property of the absconders can be sealed if they don't surrender in appropriate time, but even that was not resorted to. People lost their land to those indulging in violence, and didn't get back that. Is that acceptable? The problem with people here is that they always portray the sense of victimization. Gandhi's belief that victims have won a moral victory is now being turned on its head by victims bashing their 'oppressors' in public, like women crying loudly to create a spectacle of grief at someone's death. What we need is people standing for upright values and asking for justice but at the same time not indulging in portraying their victimization all the time, and then blaming others and looking at it from that point of view. And Pawan jee, being a supporter of Kashmiri Pandit cause, and knowing what did happen to the Pandits, you should have supported the stand against violence and VHP, and stood in shoulders with the sufferers of violence. As I said, justice is the larger issue rather than Teesta Satalvad. If Modi/Mayaben Kodnani/Jaydeep Patel/L K Advani/anybody else (includes Hindus, Muslims, Christians, Sikhs and other religions, agnostics, atheists..and all other human beings) commits a crime, he/she must be punished, make no mistake about it. And it doesn't matter who supports which cause, justice delayed is justice denied. Regards Rakesh From kshmendra2005 at yahoo.com Wed Apr 15 15:19:56 2009 From: kshmendra2005 at yahoo.com (Kshmendra Kaul) Date: Wed, 15 Apr 2009 02:49:56 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Reader-list] Sunita Paul Plagiarism Snowball In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <287335.97910.qm@web57201.mail.re3.yahoo.com> Dear Shambhu   In one of the plagiarised (from Daily Star) passages, Sunita Paul has replaced the spellings of "ajan" with "Azan".   Would you please tell me if 'aJan' is how Bangladeshis would pronounce what elsewhere is pronounced as "aZan" or is it a misprint in the Daily Star Original.   I am also wondering, why (in many commentaries on her) Sunita Paul's claim of being an 'Indian' seems to be taken for-granted as being truthful. There should be some scepticism linked with 'A Plagiarist, A Cheat, A Fraud'. Not to forget 'Cochin" or "Kochi" being spelled as "Kochin"   Kshmendra --- On Wed, 4/15/09, Shambhu Rahmat wrote: From: Shambhu Rahmat Subject: [Reader-list] Sunita Paul Plagiarism Snowball To: "sarai list" Date: Wednesday, April 15, 2009, 10:30 AM Latest on her plagiarism of two Daily Star articles: http://www.docstrangelove.com/2009/04/14/sunita-paul-continues-to-plagiarize/ Shada Kalo also has a new post out: http://shadakalo.blogspot.com/2009/04/interesting-and-incisive-does-not.html Rezwan also has a post out and it looks like The Telegraph of Calcutta is preparing to publish a piece on "Sunita Paul". Helene Cooper of the New York Times wrote back to J of Shada Kalo who had forwarded the plagiarism post. NYT is taking the copyright violation seriously and will likely pursue it with American Chronicle. http://shadakalo.blogspot.com/2009/04/sunita-paul-international-woman-of.html _________________________________________ reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. Critiques & Collaborations To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with subscribe in the subject header. To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> From pawan.durani at gmail.com Wed Apr 15 16:07:04 2009 From: pawan.durani at gmail.com (Pawan Durani) Date: Wed, 15 Apr 2009 16:07:04 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Teesta Setalvad cooked up macabre tales on Gujarat Riots : SIT In-Reply-To: References: <6353c690904140852p23812fa8v9e385fd53ff22ec6@mail.gmail.com> <1f9180970904141026h3a53f3f0m4f424e24fcadc756@mail.gmail.com> <6b79f1a70904141226pe7c05e4k1da7544c57be8aef@mail.gmail.com> <006a01c9bd9f$58ce13c0$0201a8c0@limo> Message-ID: <6b79f1a70904150337q6b8e2468j4c1d9f2cd9304ea9@mail.gmail.com> Dear Rakesh , As i have requested you earlier , pls do not assume things. I understand agony of people who are victimised . I am not against Justice to any victim. I just shared an online petition as I found it interesting . Teesta's role and her motives are not very clear to me.......that does not take away the fact the victims like Kashmiri Pandits , Gujarat Muslims or Hindus who were burnt in Sabarmati express deserve justice. Thnx Pawan On Wed, Apr 15, 2009 at 2:50 PM, Rakesh Iyer wrote: > Dear Bipin jee > it > First of all, cases were not registered of rape by the police, not because > the girl's family didn't want to in many cases, although the latter has also > been one of the reasons for not registering cases. What's more, for those > cases which were registered, number of cases were filed together in a single > chargesheet, which is wrong, as cases for different incidents should be > registered differently, which was not the case. Last but not the least, > those who indulged in rape or other violence were declared absconding, when > they were actually in the very village/city/locality conducting their > business through shops!!! HOWZZAT!! > > Moreover, the property of the absconders can be sealed if they don't > surrender in appropriate time, but even that was not resorted to. People > lost their land to those indulging in violence, and didn't get back that. Is > that acceptable? > > The problem with people here is that they always portray the sense of > victimization. Gandhi's belief that victims have won a moral victory is now > being turned on its head by victims bashing their 'oppressors' in public, > like women crying loudly to create a spectacle of grief at someone's death. > What we need is people standing for upright values and asking for justice > but at the same time not indulging in portraying their victimization all the > time, and then blaming others and looking at it from that point of view. > > And Pawan jee, being a supporter of Kashmiri Pandit cause, and knowing what > did happen to the Pandits, you should have supported the stand against > violence and VHP, and stood in shoulders with the sufferers of violence. As > I said, justice is the larger issue rather than Teesta Satalvad. > > If Modi/Mayaben Kodnani/Jaydeep Patel/L K Advani/anybody else (includes > Hindus, Muslims, Christians, Sikhs and other religions, agnostics, > atheists..and all other human beings) commits a crime, he/she must be > punished, make no mistake about it. And it doesn't matter who supports which > cause, justice delayed is justice denied. > > Regards > > Rakesh > From aliens at dataone.in Wed Apr 15 16:06:31 2009 From: aliens at dataone.in (bipin) Date: Wed, 15 Apr 2009 16:06:31 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Teesta Setalvad cooked up macabre tales on GujaratRiots : SIT Message-ID: <002e01c9bdb6$0af00750$0201a8c0@limo> Dear Rakesh, That is what I am also telling. Justice must be there. When some gets death punishment (Afsal Guru) by way justice, you don't want to accept it. This is your bias way of justice. Those who are guilty even in riots must be punished. All the cases are going on and you know how slow our procedure is and loop holes in our laws gets even more delays. I have said many times earlier that we need drastic changes in our laws and requirement of some new strict laws. If one raise voice in this direction, pseudo-secularist come in between and oppose it. So many FIR's and court cases is there in case of Gujarat riots, while in case of shikh riot nothing has been happened and CID gives clean chit. Might be Teesta would have not got fund from their foreign body for these purpose. thanks Bipin ----- Original Message ----- From: Rakesh Iyer To: bipin Cc: Pawan Durani ; sarai-list Sent: Wednesday, April 15, 2009 2:50 PM Subject: Re: [Reader-list] Teesta Setalvad cooked up macabre tales on GujaratRiots : SIT Dear Bipin jee First of all, cases were not registered of rape by the police, not because the girl's family didn't want to in many cases, although the latter has also been one of the reasons for not registering cases. What's more, for those cases which were registered, number of cases were filed together in a single chargesheet, which is wrong, as cases for different incidents should be registered differently, which was not the case. Last but not the least, those who indulged in rape or other violence were declared absconding, when they were actually in the very village/city/locality conducting their business through shops!!! HOWZZAT!! Moreover, the property of the absconders can be sealed if they don't surrender in appropriate time, but even that was not resorted to. People lost their land to those indulging in violence, and didn't get back that. Is that acceptable? The problem with people here is that they always portray the sense of victimization. Gandhi's belief that victims have won a moral victory is now being turned on its head by victims bashing their 'oppressors' in public, like women crying loudly to create a spectacle of grief at someone's death. What we need is people standing for upright values and asking for justice but at the same time not indulging in portraying their victimization all the time, and then blaming others and looking at it from that point of view. And Pawan jee, being a supporter of Kashmiri Pandit cause, and knowing what did happen to the Pandits, you should have supported the stand against violence and VHP, and stood in shoulders with the sufferers of violence. As I said, justice is the larger issue rather than Teesta Satalvad. If Modi/Mayaben Kodnani/Jaydeep Patel/L K Advani/anybody else (includes Hindus, Muslims, Christians, Sikhs and other religions, agnostics, atheists..and all other human beings) commits a crime, he/she must be punished, make no mistake about it. And it doesn't matter who supports which cause, justice delayed is justice denied. Regards Rakesh From rakesh.rnbdj at gmail.com Wed Apr 15 16:11:10 2009 From: rakesh.rnbdj at gmail.com (Rakesh Iyer) Date: Wed, 15 Apr 2009 16:11:10 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Teesta Setalvad cooked up macabre tales on Gujarat Riots : SIT In-Reply-To: <6b79f1a70904150337q6b8e2468j4c1d9f2cd9304ea9@mail.gmail.com> References: <6353c690904140852p23812fa8v9e385fd53ff22ec6@mail.gmail.com> <1f9180970904141026h3a53f3f0m4f424e24fcadc756@mail.gmail.com> <6b79f1a70904141226pe7c05e4k1da7544c57be8aef@mail.gmail.com> <006a01c9bd9f$58ce13c0$0201a8c0@limo> <6b79f1a70904150337q6b8e2468j4c1d9f2cd9304ea9@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: Dera Pawan jee I apologize for that assumption. But my larger issue was that people who are victims of a situation must be sympathized with and provided justice, instead of browbeating that this was the best lesson to be taught to them. No innocent deserves rape and death in the world. As for Teesta Satalvad, there is only one paper which has published the article. People can interpret that in various ways. And so can people. Let the court decide whether Teesta is misleading the people or not. And we can raise our voice if the court has taken that decision based upon wrong conclusions. Or we can applaud it if it has been taken upon the right contention. At least let us have faith in the Indian judicial system. Regards Rakesh From aliens at dataone.in Wed Apr 15 16:14:31 2009 From: aliens at dataone.in (bipin) Date: Wed, 15 Apr 2009 16:14:31 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Teesta Setalvad cooked up macabre tales on GujaratRiots: SIT References: <6353c690904140852p23812fa8v9e385fd53ff22ec6@mail.gmail.com> <1f9180970904141026h3a53f3f0m4f424e24fcadc756@mail.gmail.com> <6b79f1a70904141226pe7c05e4k1da7544c57be8aef@mail.gmail.com> <006a01c9bd9f$58ce13c0$0201a8c0@limo> Message-ID: <003401c9bdb7$28f4da90$0201a8c0@limo> Dear Javed, When I say rape a normal practice, it does not mean that rape incidence happens do not disturb me. It is always condemnable and must even punished to death sentence. What I mean to say is whenever riots takes place this is normal practice that the routine rape incidence happens is also linked with riots. Such rape incidence would have been there even riot does not taken place. That is what my point is. However, if anyone proved guilty whoever it may be (either VHP or BJP worker) must be punished. thanks Bipin ----- Original Message ----- From: "M Javed" To: "bipin" ; "reader" Sent: Wednesday, April 15, 2009 2:06 PM Subject: Re: [Reader-list] Teesta Setalvad cooked up macabre tales on GujaratRiots: SIT Dear Bipin If there is a house on fire and you have to distinguish the fire, would you finish putting out the fire in one house or leave it burning and attend to other houses too. Why should you expect one person or one NGO to fight for the cause of every one. Why don't you stand up and start fighting the fire in other houses if you are so concerned about them. NGO-bashing has become very fashionable these days. It is true that some NGOs make their bread and butter (and cheese) out of foreign funding for not-so honest causes. But this also undermines the honest work being done by so many individuals and institutions in the rural India. I also find your calling rape "a normal practice during such situations" a very disturbing statement - my God. If something happens to your sister or wife or mother or daughter, will you call it a normal practice? Javed On Wed, Apr 15, 2009 at 1:24 PM, bipin wrote: > Dear Pawan, > > In a way its very true I am giving my point of view as under. > > NGO and human right activists’ activities are totally biased and they act > with the guidance of their source of funds only. For ex Teesta’s NGO is > working only for Gujarat riot, Mumbai ’92 riot or Kandhmal. The one did by > communal forces according to them. They have never raised their voice for > the victim of terrorist in India, Kashmir, Shikh riot etc. This shows > their > biased behavior only. Such foreign organizations are normally against the > India to grow and such many movement is going on with foreign various > trust > funding. Many NGO’s and human right activists’ bread butter with such fund > only. > > In case of Jaheera they have instigated to give false statement and by > this > way they have got much more additional funds from foreign missionaries > Teesta promised Zahira to give handsome money for life long living. But, > after following the Teesta’s path, Zahira did not get any money as > promised. > So, Zahira turned down in the court and what she was knowing really told > to > the court. > > Its absolutely true that at that time media, such NGO’s Human Right > Activists has played a key role to hype and exaggerated this issue than > the > actual it is. Simple reason by doing this NGO and Human rights Activist > had > got huge funding. > > Someone arguing about the rape incidents occurred during 2002 Gujarat > riots. > Still not a single rape case registered and if it would have happened > during > that period is must be a part of normal rape incidence going on even today > in large scale in India by goonda elements and nothing to do with riot > occurred by way of reaction. Whenever, riot takes place this is very > normal > practice to make such allegation to give much more hype in the issue. > > thanks > Bipin > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Pawan Durani" > To: "Anuj Bhuwania" > Cc: > Sent: Wednesday, April 15, 2009 12:56 AM > Subject: Re: [Reader-list] Teesta Setalvad cooked up macabre tales on > Gujarat Riots : SIT > > >> An interesting petition i just found on internet ......No comments from >> my >> side .....but the petition is worth reading............ >> http://www.petitiononline.com/ngoi/petition.html >> >> To: Supreme Court Of India, CBI (India), Press Council Of India >> >> Appeal to maintain the sanctity of India's judicial system >> >> To: >> >> HON’BLE MR. JUSTICE R.C. LAHOTI, Chief Justice of Supreme Court Of India. >> >> SHRI U.S. MISRA, Director CBI >> >> HON’BLE MR. JUSTICE K. JAYACHANDRA REDDY, Chairman Press Council of >> India. >> >> As events in the trial of the Best Bakery case unfold, the man on the >> street >> looks on in askance where exactly the truth lies. On one side is a much >> maligned but democratically elected government of Gujarat that is charged >> and on the other is a highly pampered but suspicious NGO who leads the >> attack and in the middle is a simple, 20-year old girl. The case >> pertaining >> to the Best Bakery massacre has become more of a contrivance to score >> political points than to execute justice. It is unfortunate that courts >> all >> the way to the apex court in India have fallen prey to this political >> tussle. >> >> It is the appeal of the undersigned that restraint is followed in making >> judgments and the fact be examined that NGOs themselves might have vested >> interests. >> >> Zaheera Sheikh’s allegations against the NGO Citizens for Justice and >> Peace >> and its counselor Teesta Setalvad carry criminal ramifications. In her >> own >> words Zaheera admitted that she perceived a threat to her life from >> activist >> Teesta Setalvad. She further narrated how she was abducted at knifepoint >> at >> the behest of Ms. Setalvad. In a rare admission she alleged *"Teesta >> forced >> me into changing my earlier deposition. She threatened me with dire >> consequences if I did not follow her instructions."* >> >> For an NGO that belabors endlessly on communal harmony, Ms Setalvad’s >> approach to the Best Bakery case appears not to be one of conciliation >> but >> rooted in widening the communal chasm when one hears Zaheera narrate *“When >> I asked her what she wanted, she said, 'You have to fight for your >> community, for which even if you have to tell lies, you'll have to tell >> lies >> before court.”* Zaheera Sheikh has also charged Ms Setalvad of holding >> her >> captive and threatening her of lynching! >> >> One must also note that since her allegation against Ms Setalvad, Zaheera >> Sheikh has also sought the counsel and protection of National Committee >> for >> Minorities (NCM) and The National Commission for Women (NCW). She met >> with >> Ms Poornima Advani of the NCW in the week of Nov 8-14 in this >> connection.. >> Ms >> Advani it should be recalled has constantly fought for the human rights >> of >> those affected by the Gujarat incidents. While, the Gujarat government >> has >> been insidiously charged by all and sundry of having coerced Zaheera into >> her latest volte-face - after her meeting Ms Advani welcomed Zaheera’s >> stance and rejected allegations of illegal pressure by the Gujarat Govt. >> She >> confirmed to the press that *“Zaheera was under no pressure and was doing >> her own things”.* >> >> It must be further noted that allegations of threat against Ms. Setalvad >> are >> not just from Zaheera Sheikh alone. A day after Zaheera Sheikh sought >> police >> protection from Ms. Setalvad, an accused in the case Dinesh Rajbhar told >> special judge A M Thipsay that Setalvad had 'threatened' him while being >> taken out of the court in Mumbai. The court has taken the complaint of >> Ms. >> Setalvad’s threat in the words - *"Hum tum sab ko dekh lenge* (We will >> see >> you)” - on record. >> >> It has been noticed several times that many NGOs in India have been >> exposed >> as tax shelters and sophisticated social swindles. It has also been noted >> that many NGOs do have vested foreign interests whose ultimate interest >> is >> what NGOs champion. It is our appeal therefore that the courts, based on >> the >> petitions by NGOs whose credentials may be questionable, not execute >> landmark decisions. In light of the serious allegations the star witness >> of >> the Best Bakery has made against the NGO Citizens for Justice and Peace >> and >> its forerunner Teesta Setalvad, this becomes very important. >> >> >> The role of the Ms Teesta Setalvad and her interest for state of India >> are >> more than dubious. If anything, Ms. Teesta Setalvad is hardly an NGO and >> driven impetuously against only a certain political ideology. She >> publishes >> “Communalism Combat”. Ostensibly a publication for communal harmony, its >> real purpose and effect appear to be directed at communal polarization. >> Sabrang Communications (Private) Ltd that she jointly operates with her >> husband Javed Anand has a history of coordinating several political >> activities with a common theme: attack democratically elected governments >> in >> India, and slander them abroad, and conduct anti-Indian propaganda. >> >> We also appeal to the CBI to investigate the funds received by Ms >> Setalvad >> and her NGO for political pamphleteering. There have been indications >> that >> Sabrang Communications has been soliciting foreign funding giving the >> address of one SINGH foundation in the United States. In fact per Zaheera >> Sheikh’s revelation to press persons, Ms. Setalvad even threatened >> Zaheera >> with her monetary clout – as Zaheera narrated *"I told Teesta I would >> lodge >> a complaint against her with Vadodara police and expose her, but Teesta >> replied, 'We are very rich and influential. You can't harm us that way.”* >> >> Who should we believe? The battle has been drawn out between a very >> powerful >> woman who is on the board of several government offices, is in close >> association with corporate houses, has been felicitated overseas with >> sundry >> awards and in defence is a hapless young girl barely out of her teens, >> bereaved and homeless. Ms Setalvad's loyalties are at best "divided" - >> she >> has consistently used a secessionist map of India on her web-site and >> viciously attacked Indian musicians who asked for equivalent access to >> Pakistani markets, as offered to Pakistani musicians here. Her current >> effort at undermining an indigent, inadequately educated girl, barely out >> of >> her teens, is avidly supported by Pakistanis and organizations that align >> themselves with the NDF-ISI nexus. Do we really want such a person and >> her >> coterie to affect our judicial system? >> >> This petition is also an appeal of the undersigned to the Press Council >> of >> India to advise restrain on the astounding one-sidedness of press >> reporting. >> Even though Zahira Sheikh’s reputation appears tarnished with her >> constant >> about faces, her allegations against Ms. Setalvad must be investigated >> without prejudice. The press must be cautious in making slanted reports >> that >> may be construed as a defense of Ms. Setalvad. While the truth remains >> muddied, speculation in the press is rife about Zaheera’s character, >> stories >> are being made up about greed and letting down her community. For example >> with little or no corroborating evidence, India’s leading daily in >> English >> had a sensational headline titled “'Zahira retracted for money'. Another >> nationally syndicated columnist devoted an entire op-ed in defense of >> Teesta >> Setalvad without even the minimum of investigation into any of Zaheera’s >> charges. If anything the press must be wary of bogus peace and human >> rights >> activists that abound in India working for foreign interests. >> >> We the undersigned strongly protest that we do not want the Indian >> judicial >> system, the investigating agencies and the press be held hostage by >> individuals with questionable intentions, NGOs with unaccounted sources >> of >> funding. Further, NGOs who have no accountability to anyone should not be >> allowed to affect or even direct our judicial process, especially if they >> have foreign funding. It is important that fly-by-night organizations >> like >> one Ms. Setalvad has been running not malign and undermine India’s >> judicial >> system. >> >> >> Sincerely, >> >> On Wed, Apr 15, 2009 at 12:11 AM, Anuj Bhuwania >> wrote: >> >>> Dear all, >>> >>> It is perhaps worth noting that the only newspaper that reported the >>> Court proceedings in such terms, is the Times of India and its sister >>> publication Economic Times. Please find pasted below Teesta Setalvad's >>> rebuttal to this Times of India news report quoted already in the >>> first email posted on this thread. >>> >>> Best, >>> anuj >>> >>> Rebuttal to the Times of India report, dated April 14, 2009: >>> >>> The report in The Times of India, Mumbai edition dated April 14, 2009, >>> reportedly also published prominently in all its other editions >>> titled, ‘NGOs, Teesta spiced up Gujarat riots cases: SIT’ is a clear >>> example of irresponsible reportage. Intentionally or otherwise, the >>> distorted report damages the reputation of a citizens’ group that has >>> been recognized nationally and internationally for working assiduously >>> to ensure justice to the victims of mass violence whether in case of >>> the Gujarat carnage (2002), or the bomb blasts in Mumbai (2006 and >>> 2008) or the communal carnage in Kandhamal district, Orissa (2008), >>> irrespective of the caste or creed of the victims or the perpetrators. >>> >>> “The SIT led by former CBI director R K Raghavan told the Supreme >>> Court on Monday…” reads the opening para of the report. The fact is >>> that neither Sri Raghavan, nor any other SIT member was present at the >>> apex court to “tell” it anything. Sri Dhananjay Mahapatra’s report >>> could only be referring to a contention made in a four page note >>> circulated by Ms Hemantika Wahi for the Gujarat Government. (A copy of >>> the same is annexed). It was not a note prepared by SIT. The report is >>> all the more shocking since Sri Mahapatra was present in the court and >>> could not be unaware of this. >>> >>> The detailed report of SIT submitted to the Supreme Court on March 6, >>> 2007 has not been available for study either to National Human Rights >>> Commission (NHRC), the petitioners in this case, or the Citizens for >>> Justice and Peace (CJP) who have intervened in this critical matter or >>> to any in the media. Any reference to it is hence hearsay and it may >>> amount to contempt of court to write about a report which the Court >>> has specifically not made public. >>> >>> In its written note that the Gujarat state circulated in court >>> yesterday, the state has given its brief comments on the SIT report. >>> In para four of this note the Gujarat government note refers to >>> alleged statements made by some witnesses in the Gulberg case before >>> SIT that name accused other than those named by them in the written >>> statements that were (according to the state of Gujarat) given to them >>> by Teesta Setalvad and advocates. This is the version of the Gujarat >>> state. Besides this, Mukul Rohatgi tried to make a populist speech in >>> court saying that incidents like the Kauser Bano case etc never >>> happened. The Supreme Court disregarded this argument and did not >>> allow Mr.Rohatgi to read anything from the report. The court went on >>> to state that they were not interested in personal allegations and >>> only ensuring that, like in the course of the Zahira Shaikh case, the >>> trials are fair, the truth comes out and the course of justice is >>> served. >>> >>> It is necessary to recalled that in the course of the Best Bakery >>> trial, too, the Gujarat government had tried to divert the court’s >>> attention by engineering charges against Teesta Setalvad, secretary >>> CJP and by implication the NGO. On Setalvad’s application to the apex >>> court for a full fledged inquiry the report of the Registrar of the >>> apex court exonerated Setalvad and the NGO completely. >>> >>> As reported by the rest of the national media, on Monday, ignoring Sri >>> Rohatgi’s bid to side-step the main issues, the three-member bench of >>> the Supreme Court remained focused on the modalities of setting up >>> designated courts for the trial of the accused in the post-Godhra riot >>> cases in Gujarat. Instead of highlighting the court proceedings, Sri >>> Mahapatra chose to spice up his report focusing not on the >>> deliberations or the intentions of the apex court but to promote the >>> case of the Gujarat government. >>> >>> The moot question is whether or not 2,500 persons were killed in a >>> ghastly perpetrated massacre following the tragic burning alive of 59 >>> persons on the Sabarmati express; whether or not ex parliamentarian >>> Ahsan Jafri was mutilated before being burnt alive, whether the bodies >>> of the missing dead (over 220) have not been found or returned for >>> dignified burial after seven long years? All the national media was >>> witness to this national tragedy. >>> >>> In the interests of fair reportage and to ensure that the reputation >>> of a citizens group committed to equity and justice is not >>> deliberately vitiated before the trials commence, the newspaper should >>> carry this rebuttal in full. A failure to do so will result in the >>> columns of a national newspaper being used to distort facts, shape >>> public perception and seek to influence the outcome of due process of >>> law and justice to the victims of mass murder. >>> >>> (Statement by Citizens for Justice and Peace, Mumbai, April 14, 2009, >>> Mumbai) >>> >>> We wish also that the following issues be highlighted by you in a box >>> though the word length goes over your report. >>> >>> Pertinent issues ignored in the report: >>> >>> * The arrests of minister Dr Maya Kodnani and Dr Jaideep Patel in >>> the past weeks were on the basis of SIT re-investigations. Twelve FIRs >>> filed by witnesses naming these accused in 2002 had been clubbed into >>> a magnum FIR by the Ahmedabad crime branch that had dropped the names >>> of these powerful accused; >>> * The arrests of investigating officer KG Erda in the Gulberg >>> case and of other policemen in the other cases over the past months >>> has meant the claims of witness survivors and legal rights groups, >>> prima facie, are valid; >>> * That this was one of the issues why the apex court has chosen >>> to appoint SIT, the full scale subversion of the process of justice, >>> from the removal of names of accused who’s names appeared in earlier >>> statements simply because they enjoyed political patronage; the >>> appointment of prosecutors with allegiances to the BJP and VHP which >>> meant instead of promoting fair trial they sided with the politically >>> powerful and protected accused; >>> * More pertinently the tragic slaying of pregnant Kauser Bano >>> at Naroda Patiya after slitting her womb was reported in Deccan >>> Herald,(April 17, 2004) and The Indian Express, (March 23,2005) among >>> others apart from finding place in innumerable reports including the >>> one authored by the Concerned Citizens Tribunal-Crimes Against >>> Humanity 2002 headed by two Supreme Court judges, Justices Krishna >>> Iyer and PB Sawant. Similarly the British national case was similarly >>> documented apart from being covered in The Pioneer, March 3, 2002 and >>> The Hindu, April 23, 2002. >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> On Tue, Apr 14, 2009 at 11:15 PM, Rakesh Iyer >>> wrote: >>> > Dear all >>> > >>> > The fact of the matter is that even official statistics show that more >>> than >>> > 1,000 died in these 'riots', if one were to call them that. However, a >>> riot >>> > is not organized but is a spontaneous reaction to an event or a chain >>> > of >>> > events which took place. This was a well planned genocide, for there >>> > were >>> > people talking on mobiles directing people to attack at various >>> > places, >>> > police was sleeping or not functioning, the RAF could not be contacted >>> > as >>> > telephone lines were cut, and interestingly even many people are >>> registered >>> > as missing even now, 7 years after the gory incidents. >>> > >>> > Every time one talks about these, Godhra is mentioned. Was anybody >>> > raped >>> in >>> > Godhra? Was anybody taunted in Godhra? Weren't the VHP workers >>> > creating >>> > problems for other passengers by occupying reserved seats? What were >>> > they >>> > doing occupying reserved seats while having unreserved tickets for >>> > themselves? Why was it so that a certain number of passengers could >>> > not >>> be >>> > identified days after the incident? Why was no official railway >>> > inquiry >>> > ordered within 48 hours of the incident by the Railway Ministry, as is >>> often >>> > the case when any incident pertaining to this ministry takes place? >>> > >>> > Nobody answers these questions. >>> > >>> > Then about avenging Godhra. Even if one were to logically look at it, >>> > why >>> > should Godhra be avenged in Gujarat? It should be avenged in Godhra >>> > only >>> > (logically looking from the anguished ones' angle). Why was it >>> > required >>> to >>> > target Ahmedabad Muslims for what happened in Godhra? Did these >>> > Muslims >>> go >>> > and do it there? Or did they support their activities? >>> > >>> > And how are rapes justified as avenging Godhra? If that is the case, >>> > then >>> > wouldn't a Muslim who lost everything in such 'riots' be justified in >>> > avenging it by raping the mother/sister of some member of this forum >>> > (including me) just because he/she is a Hindu? Is that right? >>> > >>> > Teesta Satalvad or no Teesta Satalvad, what is required is punishment >>> > of >>> the >>> > perpetrators in the strongest terms to set an example before the >>> > society >>> > that those who indulge in such violence would get what they deserve >>> > and >>> > shouldn't expect any mercy. It should act as a case of impartial >>> > justice >>> > delivered in the quickest possible time. And if Godhra accused can be >>> > put >>> > under POTA, all those involved in such killings anywhere and anytime >>> should >>> > be punished under UAPA. >>> > >>> > I hope that the SIT achieves this to a certain extent, and I would >>> > like >>> to >>> > look at the report before making any remarks. Newspaper clippings and >>> media >>> > have a sense to distort the entire thing, and even a portion or >>> > paragraph >>> > can be cited to change the context in which the comments were put up. >>> > I >>> > think the report is confidential as the matter is sub-judice. However, >>> > if >>> > the report is available, please do inform me (and indeed all of us) >>> > for >>> the >>> > same. >>> > >>> > And for me, justice is more important, irrespective of there is Teesta >>> > or >>> no >>> > Teesta; Pawan Durani or no Pawan Durani; Aditya Raj Kaul or no Aditya >>> > Raj >>> > Kaul, Rakesh Iyer or no Rakesh Iyer. >>> > >>> > And as a society, that is the goal we must strive towards, not Ram >>> > Mandir/Babri Masjid, not SEZ's or interlinking of rivers or other such >>> > faulty schemes, not temples of Modern India or huge dams, but means to >>> > improve livelihood of people and securing justice for them. >>> > >>> > Regards >>> > >>> > Rakesh >>> > _________________________________________ >>> > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. >>> > Critiques & Collaborations >>> > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with >>> subscribe in the subject header. >>> > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list >>> > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> >>> _________________________________________ >>> reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. >>> Critiques & Collaborations >>> To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with >>> subscribe in the subject header. >>> To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list >>> List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> >>> >> _________________________________________ >> reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. >> Critiques & Collaborations >> To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with >> subscribe in the subject header. >> To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list >> List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> > > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > subscribe in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> From rakesh.rnbdj at gmail.com Wed Apr 15 16:18:19 2009 From: rakesh.rnbdj at gmail.com (Rakesh Iyer) Date: Wed, 15 Apr 2009 16:18:19 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Teesta Setalvad cooked up macabre tales on GujaratRiots : SIT In-Reply-To: <001301c9bdb5$c1d594e0$0201a8c0@limo> References: <6353c690904140852p23812fa8v9e385fd53ff22ec6@mail.gmail.com> <1f9180970904141026h3a53f3f0m4f424e24fcadc756@mail.gmail.com> <6b79f1a70904141226pe7c05e4k1da7544c57be8aef@mail.gmail.com> <006a01c9bd9f$58ce13c0$0201a8c0@limo> <001301c9bdb5$c1d594e0$0201a8c0@limo> Message-ID: Dear Bipin jee I agree justice in India can be bought over. And there are many public instances of the same happening. Regarding Afzal Guru, I had put up a link of Arundhati Roy to be read regarding the case. While people are against Arundhati Roy, she never says that Afzal Guru is not guilty. Infact, she even says that Afzal accepts he is guilty, but he is just a soldier, the real king is somewhere else. Shouldn't we try to get the king if the king is in Indian territory? Nobody knows who the 5 terrorists are even today, or where do their families belong to. And solely on the basis of Afzal's statement, we went to a near-war situation with Pakistan. About 600-700 soldiers died in Operation Parakram without fighting a war. Their families deserve an answer whether the action was hasty or was it right. Whether it was justified or not. I am not saying Afzal Guru should not be hanged or just sentenced to life imprisonment. Neither am I saying he is not guilty. I don't have the expertise to pass a judgement on that. Let us have another investigation into it, as also to find out how come he and Geelani as well as others were arrested, and why did Delhi police get rebukes from the court for their procedure and method of investigation. Let that find out who really is the 'mastermind' behind the blasts. And if Afzal Guru then requires to be hanged, hang him on December 13, the day these people wanted us to mourn and cry. Let that be celebrated as a slap on their face. I have no objections. I only ask for re-inquiry because of one single reason: Our law system works on the principle 'A hundred culprits can go scotfree, but not a single innocent will be punished.' Let us not punish chuhas when the sher is sitting in the jungle eating peacefully. Regards Rakesh From jeebesh at sarai.net Wed Apr 15 16:45:52 2009 From: jeebesh at sarai.net (Jeebesh) Date: Wed, 15 Apr 2009 16:45:52 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Johann Hari : You Are Being Lied to About Pirates Message-ID: http://www.huffingtonpost.com/johann-hari/you-are-being-lied-to-abo_b_155147.html Who imagined that in 2009, the world's governments would be declaring a new War on Pirates? As you read this, the British Royal Navy - backed by the ships of more than two dozen nations, from the US to China - is sailing into Somalian waters to take on men we still picture as parrot-on-the-shoulder pantomime villains. They will soon be fighting Somalian ships and even chasing the pirates onto land, into one of the most broken countries on earth. But behind the arrr-me- hearties oddness of this tale, there is an untold scandal. The people our governments are labeling as "one of the great menace of our times" have an extraordinary story to tell -- and some justice on their side. Pirates have never been quite who we think they are. In the "golden age of piracy" - from 1650 to 1730 - the idea of the pirate as the senseless, savage thief that lingers today was created by the British government in a great propaganda-heave. Many ordinary people believed it was false: pirates were often rescued from the gallows by supportive crowds. Why? What did they see that we can't? In his book Villains of All nations, the historian Marcus Rediker pores through the evidence to find out. If you became a merchant or navy sailor then - plucked from the docks of London's East End, young and hungry - you ended up in a floating wooden Hell. You worked all hours on a cramped, half-starved ship, and if you slacked off for a second, the all- powerful captain would whip you with the Cat O' Nine Tails. If you slacked consistently, you could be thrown overboard. And at the end of months or years of this, you were often cheated of your wages. Pirates were the first people to rebel against this world. They mutinied against their tyrannical captains - and created a different way of working on the seas. Once they had a ship, the pirates elected their captains, and made all their decisions collectively. They shared their bounty out in what Rediker calls "one of the most egalitarian plans for the disposition of resources to be found anywhere in the eighteenth century." They even took in escaped African slaves and lived with them as equals. The pirates showed "quite clearly - and subversively - that ships did not have to be run in the brutal and oppressive ways of the merchant service and the Royal navy." This is why they were popular, despite being unproductive thieves. The words of one pirate from that lost age - a young British man called William Scott - should echo into this new age of piracy. Just before he was hanged in Charleston, South Carolina, he said: "What I did was to keep me from perishing. I was forced to go a-pirating to live." In 1991, the government of Somalia - in the Horn of Africa - collapsed. Its nine million people have been teetering on starvation ever since - and many of the ugliest forces in the Western world have seen this as a great opportunity to steal the country's food supply and dump our nuclear waste in their seas. Yes: nuclear waste. As soon as the government was gone, mysterious European ships started appearing off the coast of Somalia, dumping vast barrels into the ocean. The coastal population began to sicken. At first they suffered strange rashes, nausea and malformed babies. Then, after the 2005 tsunami, hundreds of the dumped and leaking barrels washed up on shore. People began to suffer from radiation sickness, and more than 300 died. Ahmedou Ould-Abdallah, the UN envoy to Somalia, tells me: "Somebody is dumping nuclear material here. There is also lead, and heavy metals such as cadmium and mercury - you name it." Much of it can be traced back to European hospitals and factories, who seem to be passing it on to the Italian mafia to "dispose" of cheaply. When I asked Ould-Abdallah what European governments were doing about it, he said with a sigh: "Nothing. There has been no clean-up, no compensation, and no prevention." At the same time, other European ships have been looting Somalia's seas of their greatest resource: seafood. We have destroyed our own fish-stocks by over-exploitation - and now we have moved on to theirs. More than $300m worth of tuna, shrimp, lobster and other sea-life is being stolen every year by vast trawlers illegally sailing into Somalia's unprotected seas. The local fishermen have suddenly lost their livelihoods, and they are starving. Mohammed Hussein, a fisherman in the town of Marka 100km south of Mogadishu, told Reuters: "If nothing is done, there soon won't be much fish left in our coastal waters." This is the context in which the men we are calling "pirates" have emerged. Everyone agrees they were ordinary Somalian fishermen who at first took speedboats to try to dissuade the dumpers and trawlers, or at least wage a 'tax' on them. They call themselves the Volunteer Coastguard of Somalia - and it's not hard to see why. In a surreal telephone interview, one of the pirate leaders, Sugule Ali, said their motive was "to stop illegal fishing and dumping in our waters... We don't consider ourselves sea bandits. We consider sea bandits [to be] those who illegally fish and dump in our seas and dump waste in our seas and carry weapons in our seas." William Scott would understand those words. No, this doesn't make hostage-taking justifiable, and yes, some are clearly just gangsters - especially those who have held up World Food Programme supplies. But the "pirates" have the overwhelming support of the local population for a reason. The independent Somalian news-site WardherNews conducted the best research we have into what ordinary Somalis are thinking - and it found 70 percent "strongly supported the piracy as a form of national defence of the country's territorial waters." During the revolutionary war in America, George Washington and America's founding fathers paid pirates to protect America's territorial waters, because they had no navy or coastguard of their own. Most Americans supported them. Is this so different? Did we expect starving Somalians to stand passively on their beaches, paddling in our nuclear waste, and watch us snatch their fish to eat in restaurants in London and Paris and Rome? We didn't act on those crimes - but when some of the fishermen responded by disrupting the transit-corridor for 20 percent of the world's oil supply, we begin to shriek about "evil." If we really want to deal with piracy, we need to stop its root cause - our crimes - before we send in the gun-boats to root out Somalia's criminals. The story of the 2009 war on piracy was best summarised by another pirate, who lived and died in the fourth century BC. He was captured and brought to Alexander the Great, who demanded to know "what he meant by keeping possession of the sea." The pirate smiled, and responded: "What you mean by seizing the whole earth; but because I do it with a petty ship, I am called a robber, while you, who do it with a great fleet, are called emperor." Once again, our great imperial fleets sail in today - but who is the robber? Johann Hari is a writer for the Independent newspaper. To read more of his articles, click here. or here. POSTSCRIPT: Some commenters seem bemused by the fact that both toxic dumping and the theft of fish are happening in the same place - wouldn't this make the fish contaminated? In fact, Somalia's coastline is vast, stretching to 3300km. Imagine how easy it would be - without any coastguard or army - to steal fish from Florida and dump nuclear waste on California, and you get the idea. These events are happening in different places - but with the same horrible effect: death for the locals, and stirred-up piracy. There's no contradiction. * Pirates * Somalia Who imagined that in 2009, the world's governments would be declaring a new War on Pirates? As you read this, the British Royal Navy - backed by the ships of more than two dozen nations, from the US t... Who imagined that in 2009, the world's governments would be declaring a new War on Pirates? As you read this, the British Royal Navy - backed by the ships of more than two dozen nations, from the US t... From mitoo at sarai.net Wed Apr 15 16:58:15 2009 From: mitoo at sarai.net (Mitoo Das) Date: Wed, 15 Apr 2009 16:58:15 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] [Fwd: =?Big5?B?TGV0oaZzIG1ha2UgYSBiZXR0ZXIgRGVtb2NyYWN5LSBMZXShpg==?= =?Big5?B?cyBWb3RlIGZvciBDaGlsZCBSaWdodHMhXQ==?= Message-ID: <49E5C4CF.40006@sarai.net> From kshmendra2005 at yahoo.com Wed Apr 15 17:10:54 2009 From: kshmendra2005 at yahoo.com (Kshmendra Kaul) Date: Wed, 15 Apr 2009 04:40:54 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Reader-list] The Goddess Hingala Of Baluchistan In-Reply-To: <5af37bb0904140440x4a2585dcu8998eafad2fece0a@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <47886.62110.qm@web57207.mail.re3.yahoo.com> Dear Yasir   Thank you for sharing this weblink. Wonderful pictures.   - Delightful Tag of "Red Man" for what is possibly an an idol of the Hindu Diety Hanuman   http://offroadpakistan.com/pictures/hingol_2005/red_man.html   - The quaint Tablet Sculpture in http://offroadpakistan.com/pictures/hingol_2005/untitled.html  appears to be ceramic. Or is it stone?   - Wonder if there is a ritual followed by devotees of Nani Mander to discard old clothes by the poolside/ riverside and don fresh ones for the visit . "Discarded clothes at Nani Mander" http://offroadpakistan.com/pictures/hingol_april_2007/discarded_clothes_at_nani_mander.html     I was fascinated by the topography of the area. It was obviously under the sea at one time and shows significant seismological torturing of the landscape. Web Explorations about Hingol led me to getting introduced to the "Mud Volcanoes" of Hingol.   Some of the pics I loved:   - The portrait "Old Man" http://offroadpakistan.com/pictures/hingol_2005/old_man.html   - "Rain Shaped" hills http://offroadpakistan.com/pictures/hingol_2005/rain_shaped.html   - "Sandy Hills" http://offroadpakistan.com/pictures/hingol_2005/sandy_hills.html   - "River Bed" http://offroadpakistan.com/pictures/hingol_2005/river_bed.html   - "Flower" http://offroadpakistan.com/pictures/hingol_april_2007/flower.html   - "River Bed"   http://offroadpakistan.com/pictures/hingol_april_2007/river_bed_1.html     Kshmendra --- On Tue, 4/14/09, yasir ~يا سر wrote: From: yasir ~يا سر Subject: Re: [Reader-list] The Goddess Hingala Of Baluchistan To: "sarai list" Date: Tuesday, April 14, 2009, 5:10 PM http://offroadpakistan.com/pictures/hingol_2005/ From c.anupam at gmail.com Wed Apr 15 17:19:42 2009 From: c.anupam at gmail.com (anupam chakravartty) Date: Wed, 15 Apr 2009 17:19:42 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] =?windows-1252?q?=5BFwd=3A_Let=92s_make_a_better_De?= =?windows-1252?q?mocracy-_Let=92s_Vote_for_Child_Rights!=5D?= In-Reply-To: <49E5C4CF.40006@sarai.net> References: <49E5C4CF.40006@sarai.net> Message-ID: <341380d00904150449s5633488sa676c01b045357@mail.gmail.com> It's an important issue here Mitoo. However, one cannot see the contents of this email. it would be kind of you if you could resend the mail with the contents. thanks anupam On 4/15/09, Mitoo Das wrote: > > > > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > subscribe in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> > From jeebesh at sarai.net Wed Apr 15 17:25:59 2009 From: jeebesh at sarai.net (Jeebesh) Date: Wed, 15 Apr 2009 17:25:59 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Non-stick pans? Message-ID: <190B1742-CCD4-45E7-84D8-8200651D0818@sarai.net> dear All, i face this strange problem with non-stick pans. they all say non- stick but the omelet always get stuck in the end in these pans. weird warmly jeebesh From pawan.durani at gmail.com Wed Apr 15 17:35:45 2009 From: pawan.durani at gmail.com (Pawan Durani) Date: Wed, 15 Apr 2009 17:35:45 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Non-stick pans? In-Reply-To: <190B1742-CCD4-45E7-84D8-8200651D0818@sarai.net> References: <190B1742-CCD4-45E7-84D8-8200651D0818@sarai.net> Message-ID: <6b79f1a70904150505o7ab4ae33i641453656a853c76@mail.gmail.com> Jeebesh , If your non stick pan is non-teflon coated ...it would require a bit of more oil. Anyways ....Teflon which was introduced by DuPont is considered to be hazardous to health. Pawan On Wed, Apr 15, 2009 at 5:25 PM, Jeebesh wrote: > dear All, > > i face this strange problem with non-stick pans. they all say non- > stick but the omelet always get stuck in the end in these pans. > > weird > > warmly > jeebesh > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > subscribe in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> From c.anupam at gmail.com Wed Apr 15 17:39:07 2009 From: c.anupam at gmail.com (anupam chakravartty) Date: Wed, 15 Apr 2009 17:39:07 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Non-stick pans? In-Reply-To: <190B1742-CCD4-45E7-84D8-8200651D0818@sarai.net> References: <190B1742-CCD4-45E7-84D8-8200651D0818@sarai.net> Message-ID: <341380d00904150509o4483923el435a4526a298cc70@mail.gmail.com> actually this is more about eggs and their attachments. On 4/15/09, Jeebesh wrote: > > dear All, > > i face this strange problem with non-stick pans. they all say non- > stick but the omelet always get stuck in the end in these pans. > > weird > > warmly > jeebesh > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > subscribe in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> From jeebesh at sarai.net Wed Apr 15 17:40:41 2009 From: jeebesh at sarai.net (Jeebesh) Date: Wed, 15 Apr 2009 17:40:41 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Non-stick pans? In-Reply-To: <6b79f1a70904150505o7ab4ae33i641453656a853c76@mail.gmail.com> References: <190B1742-CCD4-45E7-84D8-8200651D0818@sarai.net> <6b79f1a70904150505o7ab4ae33i641453656a853c76@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: There is no non-hazardous non-stick pans? On 15-Apr-09, at 5:35 PM, Pawan Durani wrote: > Jeebesh , > > If your non stick pan is non-teflon coated ...it would require a bit > of more oil. Anyways ....Teflon which was introduced by DuPont is > considered to be hazardous to health. > > Pawan > > On Wed, Apr 15, 2009 at 5:25 PM, Jeebesh wrote: > dear All, > > i face this strange problem with non-stick pans. they all say non- > stick but the omelet always get stuck in the end in these pans. > > weird > > warmly > jeebesh > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > subscribe in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> > From rajen882uppinangadi at gmail.com Wed Apr 15 17:44:36 2009 From: rajen882uppinangadi at gmail.com (Rajen Uppinangadi) Date: Wed, 15 Apr 2009 17:44:36 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Theesta Setalwad and cooked up macabre stories of hers. Message-ID: <61164a90904150514g7bc2a462ud6805e6b307d0604@mail.gmail.com> Dear All, on seeing the posts about the riots and riot victims I can not but feel the hypocracy of the society, which silently tolerates the in-efficient judiciary, corrupt practices of lawyers and a healthy scared feeling for the justice system, where contempt of court is the biggest weapon the judge has to destroy anyone in society, but the moot point is truth is stronger than all this weapon, as I do not understand as to why citizens should be not using the freedom of expression when he percieves that the judiciary is way ward, not delivering the justice to all in society. Riot victims of 1984 have not got yhe justice even after 26 years, even FIR have been quashed as some leaders went from police station to next police station getting the detained rioters released, no evidence has been compiled, worst, the musclemen became ministers, saw to it that the evidence was not recorded at all by the investigative agency. As to Maya Kodnani and some instances of Gujrath accused, the role of money in filing false affidavits by vested interests to tarnish a political party is nothing new. Each one of us know honestly, how easy it is to get the affidavits signed for considerations by the vested interests, with money and muscle power. How is it that SIT investigating the Gujarath riots is super active in seeking targets, but inactive courts do not find any SIT for 1984 riots.? We have seen the song and dance sequences made out by the men and women in media about gujrath riots, but why they are silent about justice to those victims in other riots where humans go by any other faith than their favourite "minority" faiths.? As far as I am concerned for me a good governance which can not deliver justice in reasonably good time, justice which can not act against the blacksheep and vested interests of the society is abettor of the riots and crime.Laws and judiciary will be truely respected when the acts of justice truely correct the deviants in society, not delay the delivery of justice. Regards. Rajen. From pawan.durani at gmail.com Wed Apr 15 17:45:44 2009 From: pawan.durani at gmail.com (Pawan Durani) Date: Wed, 15 Apr 2009 17:45:44 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Non-stick pans? In-Reply-To: <341380d00904150509o4483923el435a4526a298cc70@mail.gmail.com> References: <190B1742-CCD4-45E7-84D8-8200651D0818@sarai.net> <341380d00904150509o4483923el435a4526a298cc70@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <6b79f1a70904150515p2fb37c31rafb97507a390c9d7@mail.gmail.com> No ....let us blame the performance of non stick pan on Narendra Modi and RSS and 'communal' BJP that would make certain people happy.... Pawan On Wed, Apr 15, 2009 at 5:39 PM, anupam chakravartty wrote: > actually this is more about eggs and their attachments. > > On 4/15/09, Jeebesh wrote: > > > > dear All, > > > > i face this strange problem with non-stick pans. they all say non- > > stick but the omelet always get stuck in the end in these pans. > > > > weird > > > > warmly > > jeebesh > > _________________________________________ > > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > > Critiques & Collaborations > > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > > subscribe in the subject header. > > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > subscribe in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> From senpriya at gmail.com Wed Apr 15 17:48:20 2009 From: senpriya at gmail.com (Priya Sen) Date: Wed, 15 Apr 2009 17:48:20 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Non-stick pans? In-Reply-To: <341380d00904150509o4483923el435a4526a298cc70@mail.gmail.com> References: <190B1742-CCD4-45E7-84D8-8200651D0818@sarai.net> <341380d00904150509o4483923el435a4526a298cc70@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <8c9003440904150518q166a9670ne1b68db99e3bee00@mail.gmail.com> right.. an omelette is known to complete itself only by leaving some part of itself behind. makes sense. - priya On Wed, Apr 15, 2009 at 5:39 PM, anupam chakravartty wrote: > actually this is more about eggs and their attachments. > > On 4/15/09, Jeebesh wrote: >> >> dear All, >> >> i face this strange problem with non-stick pans. they all say non- >> stick but the omelet always get stuck in the end in these pans. >> >> weird >> >> warmly >> jeebesh >> _________________________________________ >> reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. >> Critiques & Collaborations >> To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with >> subscribe in the subject header. >> To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list >> List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with subscribe in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> -- Priya Sen Sarai-CSDS 29, Rajpur Road, Civil Lines Delhi - 110054 priya at sarai.net From kiccovich at yahoo.com Wed Apr 15 17:50:06 2009 From: kiccovich at yahoo.com (francesca recchia) Date: Wed, 15 Apr 2009 05:20:06 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Reader-list] The Ongoing Occupation of Iraqi Artists >> from www.truthout.org Message-ID: <629965.87639.qm@web31708.mail.mud.yahoo.com> hope you'll find the reading interesting. Best francesca The Ongoing Occupation of Iraqi Artists by Dahr Jamal http://www.truthout.org/031509A francesca recchia kiccovich at yahoo.com it +39 338 166 3648 iq +964 (0) 750 7085 681 http://www.veleno.tv/bollettini/ From shuddha at sarai.net Wed Apr 15 17:52:01 2009 From: shuddha at sarai.net (Shuddhabrata Sengupta) Date: Wed, 15 Apr 2009 17:52:01 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Non-stick pans? In-Reply-To: <6b79f1a70904150515p2fb37c31rafb97507a390c9d7@mail.gmail.com> References: <190B1742-CCD4-45E7-84D8-8200651D0818@sarai.net> <341380d00904150509o4483923el435a4526a298cc70@mail.gmail.com> <6b79f1a70904150515p2fb37c31rafb97507a390c9d7@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: That would be difficult, how can we blame the non-performance of a non-stick pan on a non-stick pan. On another note, how many sitcks does it take to make a non-stick pan stick to its word not to stick like a leech to the target of its ire? On 15-Apr-09, at 5:45 PM, Pawan Durani wrote: > No ....let us blame the performance of non stick pan on Narendra > Modi and > RSS and 'communal' BJP that would make certain people happy.... > > Pawan > > On Wed, Apr 15, 2009 at 5:39 PM, anupam chakravartty > wrote: > >> actually this is more about eggs and their attachments. >> >> On 4/15/09, Jeebesh wrote: >>> >>> dear All, >>> >>> i face this strange problem with non-stick pans. they all say non- >>> stick but the omelet always get stuck in the end in these pans. >>> >>> weird >>> >>> warmly >>> jeebesh >>> _________________________________________ >>> reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. >>> Critiques & Collaborations >>> To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with >>> subscribe in the subject header. >>> To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list >>> List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> >> _________________________________________ >> reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. >> Critiques & Collaborations >> To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with >> subscribe in the subject header. >> To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list >> List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > subscribe in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> Shuddhabrata Sengupta The Sarai Programme at CSDS Raqs Media Collective shuddha at sarai.net www.sarai.net www.raqsmediacollective.net From rakesh.rnbdj at gmail.com Wed Apr 15 18:03:01 2009 From: rakesh.rnbdj at gmail.com (Rakesh Iyer) Date: Wed, 15 Apr 2009 18:03:01 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Non-stick pans? In-Reply-To: <6b79f1a70904150515p2fb37c31rafb97507a390c9d7@mail.gmail.com> References: <190B1742-CCD4-45E7-84D8-8200651D0818@sarai.net> <341380d00904150509o4483923el435a4526a298cc70@mail.gmail.com> <6b79f1a70904150515p2fb37c31rafb97507a390c9d7@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: It is senseless to blame things on people who aren't responsible for it. Why should Modi and RSS be blamed for teflon pans, unless of course they took some decision for it (the BJP or Congress also or other parties) which endangered the lives of the people? Btw, it would be better to tell you people that Modi could have concentrated on an issue regarding passing off a banned chemical in US as a pesticide in India by the PMO. This was with respect to the DOW issue of Bhopal. DOW bribed the PMO to the tune of 80 lakhs as per allegations, and what's more, this entire thing was found through an RTI application, otherwise the banned chemical would have been declared a pesticide. Why doesn't Modi concentrate on issues like that instead of harping on non-issues like strength of PM? Probably he was worried about his own strength so he didn't marry at all. Regards Rakesh From c.anupam at gmail.com Wed Apr 15 18:05:11 2009 From: c.anupam at gmail.com (anupam chakravartty) Date: Wed, 15 Apr 2009 18:05:11 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Non-stick pans? In-Reply-To: References: <190B1742-CCD4-45E7-84D8-8200651D0818@sarai.net> <341380d00904150509o4483923el435a4526a298cc70@mail.gmail.com> <6b79f1a70904150515p2fb37c31rafb97507a390c9d7@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <341380d00904150535j67366452l266caaee46179e81@mail.gmail.com> now how do the nonstick pans deal with spill overs? On 4/15/09, Rakesh Iyer wrote: > > It is senseless to blame things on people who aren't responsible for it. > Why should Modi and RSS be blamed for teflon pans, unless of course they > took some decision for it (the BJP or Congress also or other parties) which > endangered the lives of the people? > > Btw, it would be better to tell you people that Modi could have > concentrated on an issue regarding passing off a banned chemical in US as a > pesticide in India by the PMO. This was with respect to the DOW issue of > Bhopal. DOW bribed the PMO to the tune of 80 lakhs as per allegations, and > what's more, this entire thing was found through an RTI application, > otherwise the banned chemical would have been declared a pesticide. > > Why doesn't Modi concentrate on issues like that instead of harping on > non-issues like strength of PM? Probably he was worried about his own > strength so he didn't marry at all. > > Regards > > Rakesh > From angshukanta at gmail.com Wed Apr 15 18:22:06 2009 From: angshukanta at gmail.com (Angshukanta Chakraborty) Date: Wed, 15 Apr 2009 13:52:06 +0100 Subject: [Reader-list] Non-stick pans? In-Reply-To: References: <190B1742-CCD4-45E7-84D8-8200651D0818@sarai.net> <341380d00904150509o4483923el435a4526a298cc70@mail.gmail.com> <6b79f1a70904150515p2fb37c31rafb97507a390c9d7@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <77aa94900904150552s4d40e43dv35324b8214a4e276@mail.gmail.com> By 'egging on' the non-stick to come unstuck, or else to tread on the tough lanes of Teflon. But, if non-sticking is performance, and sticking is non-performance, then it's a truly Indian bureaucrat/politician who designed the non-stick to not to stick to non-sticking, thereby sticking to the revered ideal of non-performance On Wed, Apr 15, 2009 at 1:22 PM, Shuddhabrata Sengupta wrote: > That would be difficult, how can we blame the non-performance of a > non-stick pan on a non-stick pan. > On another note, how many sitcks does it take to make a non-stick pan > stick to its word not to stick like a leech to the target of its ire? > > On 15-Apr-09, at 5:45 PM, Pawan Durani wrote: > > > No ....let us blame the performance of non stick pan on Narendra > > Modi and > > RSS and 'communal' BJP that would make certain people happy.... > > > > Pawan > > > > On Wed, Apr 15, 2009 at 5:39 PM, anupam chakravartty > > wrote: > > > >> actually this is more about eggs and their attachments. > >> > >> On 4/15/09, Jeebesh wrote: > >>> > >>> dear All, > >>> > >>> i face this strange problem with non-stick pans. they all say non- > >>> stick but the omelet always get stuck in the end in these pans. > >>> > >>> weird > >>> > >>> warmly > >>> jeebesh > >>> _________________________________________ > >>> reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > >>> Critiques & Collaborations > >>> To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > >>> subscribe in the subject header. > >>> To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > >>> List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> > >> _________________________________________ > >> reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > >> Critiques & Collaborations > >> To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > >> subscribe in the subject header. > >> To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > >> List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> > > _________________________________________ > > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > > Critiques & Collaborations > > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > > subscribe in the subject header. > > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> > > Shuddhabrata Sengupta > The Sarai Programme at CSDS > Raqs Media Collective > shuddha at sarai.net > www.sarai.net > www.raqsmediacollective.net > > > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > subscribe in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> From indersalim at gmail.com Wed Apr 15 19:12:39 2009 From: indersalim at gmail.com (Inder Salim) Date: Wed, 15 Apr 2009 19:12:39 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] The Ongoing Occupation of Iraqi Artists >> from www.truthout.org In-Reply-To: <629965.87639.qm@web31708.mail.mud.yahoo.com> References: <629965.87639.qm@web31708.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <47e122a70904150642o29801c45nff9b1c307405471c@mail.gmail.com> Thanks dear Francesca for this forward, wondering if there is a way to go to Iraq and work with these artist, know about them and share, and return differently than what i am now. MAY BE SOMEONE SUGGESTS A WAY. love and regards inder salim On Wed, Apr 15, 2009 at 5:50 PM, francesca recchia wrote: > hope you'll find the reading interesting. > Best > francesca > > The Ongoing Occupation of Iraqi Artists > by Dahr Jamal > http://www.truthout.org/031509A > > > francesca recchia > kiccovich at yahoo.com > it +39 338 166 3648 > iq +964 (0) 750 7085 681 > http://www.veleno.tv/bollettini/ > > > > > > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with subscribe in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: -- http://indersalim.livejournal.com From kshmendra2005 at yahoo.com Wed Apr 15 19:18:11 2009 From: kshmendra2005 at yahoo.com (Kshmendra Kaul) Date: Wed, 15 Apr 2009 06:48:11 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Reader-list] =?utf-8?q?Barack_Obama=E2=80=99s_India-Pakistan_Mes?= =?utf-8?q?s_-_Christopher_Badeaux?= Message-ID: <605540.62020.qm@web57203.mail.re3.yahoo.com>   "Barack Obama’s India-Pakistan Mess"   by Christopher Badeaux   As an eight year-old boy, I had a handful of treasured possessions: A stuffed dog; a tiny Gizmo who would grow and distort in water (I religiously kept him dry, small, and cute); the first G.I. Joe Snake-Eyes action figure; and a 1983 World Almanac, marked up and annotated with news, trivia, and facts culled from every periodical, TV news program, and library book I could reach. Pretty standard, really. One of the things I did with that Almanac was to map out spheres of influence, American and Soviet, with “American” countries in blue, and “Soviet” countries in red. I’ll never forget pausing as I set to color in India on the multi-colored map with my trusty red pen to think, That doesn’t make sense. Aren’t they a democracy? A tiny bit of research told me that India and China hated each other, the U.S.S.R. and China hated each other, ergo, India and the Soviet Union were allies. Problem resolved, I hashed in India. The concept of “non-alignment” — India’s official position — made little sense to me. (Given India’s posturing over the decades of the Cold War, it apparently made little sense to them, too.)   The fall of the Soviet Union is and was the geopolitical event of my lifetime, and thanks enough can never be paid to Ronald Reagan, Margaret Thatcher, John Paul II, and so many others (whose names do not rhyme with Forbachev) for that monstrosity slain. Arguably the diplomatic event of my lifetime, until recently, was the American-Indian alliance. It’s a diplomatic earthquake that should have been self-effecting; instead, it represents good policy judgments and hard work by two American Presidents who had at best mixed foreign policy records, regardless of what their partisans might say. It is a diplomatic event that altered the balance of power in Asia, put America on the side of the most populous democracy on Earth, and put America on both the side of angels and its own long-term strategic interests.   It’s a diplomatic achievement being undone by the amateur realists running foreign policy now.   In 1998, the long rest from the end of the Cold War (a rest punctuated by genocide in the Balkans, genocide in Rwanda, genocide in Iraq, ethnic cleansing in Southeast Asia, brush wars in the Congo and far too much else of Africa, the usual round of atrocities in North Korea and China, and scattered wars and violence across the globe) came to an end as India and Pakistan gently let the world know they had functional nuclear capacity, by detonating nuclear warheads for all the world to detect. For a host of reasons too long to explore here, some of which involved Afghanistan, China, and “non-alignment” with the Soviets, the United States had traditionally sided with the dysfunctional, kleptocratic, oligarchic, and sometimes, briefly democratic Pakistan, a failed state in the making basically since its creation, over India, a maturing parliamentary democracy whose legal, cultural, and linguistic ties with the United States for some reason never mattered much. In a rare moment of foreign policy clarity and insight, President Clinton set in motion a dynamic change in that relationship. Whether spurred by the fear of nuclear war on the subcontinent, a moral awakening, or the realization that a barely-functional state whose intelligence services tended to hand arms and funding to Islamic terrorist groups had just acquired nuclear weaponry, the Clinton Administration set about forging closer ties with India.   In the wake of September 11, the Bush Administration took matters several steps farther: Joint military exercises, trade agreements, trade promotion, open alliances, and the clear inclusion of India in America’s regional military and strategic planning became the norm. Trade between the two countries boomed, and those of us who rejoice in an American foreign policy predicated on soft global hegemony blended with alliances with democracies and similar powers rejoiced. It is not for nothing that India was at the forefront of the nations of the Earth expressing regret at the departure of the Bush Administration.   The Indian alliance is an almost perfect lynch-pin for American strategy in Asia. India’s population is growing, which means that they will actually be there for decades to come. While hardly Westerners in culture and outlook, they share more in common with the West than do the other regional powers, including even Japan. Its military, while not yet on the level of South Korea’s, is professionalizing and learning the bluewater trade. Aside from a few breakaway regions left to go and the odd round of interfaith violence, India is a fairly stable State beset on its West by a terrorist breeding ground, and to its North by a power-hungry China. In other words, it is an Anglophonic, common law democracy beset by tyrannies and lunatics, and so naturally inclined to ally with other Anglophonic, common law democracies facing the problems attendant with tyrannies and lunatics. American foreign policy has always been about American priorities — and rightfully so — but it is a rare and wonderful thing when American Realpolitik priorities and the moral imperative to stand next to young democracies align.   Or rather, it was a rare and wonderful thing. It’s rapidly becoming a fading memory, as the Indians are finding to their dismay.   When President Obama was elected, there were cross-currents in the American and Indian press and blogospheres about the implications for the young alliance. Many felt that Obama’s greater focus on Afghanistan would necessarily draw the United States back into Pakistan’s orbit. Candidate Obama’s focus on the al Qaeda and Taliban presence in the now-famously lawless northern provinces of Pakistan, his Vice President’s famous opinion on convenience stores, the particular brand of realism the Democratic Party was embracing, and the candidate’s mockery of Hillary Clinton for her support in the Indian-American community (“D-Punjab”) and proposed intervention in Kashmir did nothing to allay this. Others, pointing to all of the reasons why we had so closely allied with India in the first place, scoffed at the idea. The President-elect’s own messaging on the matter was not a model of clarity, so the question remained open: Would Obama side with India, or Pakistan?   The answer, from the Obama Administration, appears to be Yes, we can.   No, you can’t. This is one of those unfortunate rules of modern international relations: Great powers cannot be neutral arbiters between India and Pakistan. There is too much bad blood between them, too many disparate alliances, too many emotionally charged, unsettled issues. President Obama learned this when protests from India forced him to withdraw Kashmir from former AIG board member Richard Holbrooke’s diplomatic portfolio.   Much as with Obama’s turn at “Make Peace In The Holy Land” (a game American Presidents play too often as if the Israelis are unhelpful opponents instead of an old, democratic ally), Obama’s India policy has all the signs of being confused, amoral fantasizing disguised as hard-nosed realism. On the one hand are repeated, pointless sleights, like not calling the world’s largest democracy after being elected; neglecting to include India in Hillary Clinton’s first trip abroad as Secretary of State; and subtly letting India know that the Obama Administration sees India’s nuclear development as out of place in the world. On the other hand are gentle — ultimately probably futile — attempts to have Pakistan divulge detail on which faction of its intelligence services perpetrated the Mumbai massacre.   All of that show is the worse for the substance: When he finally deigned to turn his attention to that part of the region which does not exclusively end in –istan, the President sided with Pakistan and called for the two countries to engage in “effective dialogue” to resolve their generations-old hostility. Unsurprisingly to anyone who has bothered to watch the area since 2004 — instead of, presumably, running for President — Pakistan was overjoyed. That rookie error did more damage to our relationship with India than all of the failed telephone calls imaginable, India’s PM’s recent show of ebullience at the mere sight of Obama notwithstanding.   While I recognize that the President believes that enough jaw-jaw will not merely forestall, but make pointless war-war, even jaw-jaw requires some understanding of the area. For five years, India has shut down “effective dialogue” because the dialogue turned out to be not-so-effective, not least in failing to deter Pakistan’s ISI from its ongoing shadow war against India. Pakistan liked the dialogue because it provided a veneer of legitimacy to that failing state, and made any move by India to forcibly resolve issues look evil and ill-considered by definition. In other words, whether he realizes it or not, President Obama just sided with Pakistan and against India, and put America’s foreign policy position on the side of a country that is sheltering al Qaeda. The Obama Administration has sided with the tyrant to the North and the terrorists to the West. The Indians have noticed.   All of these concessions and wasted opportunities would be brilliant maneuvers if they actually yielded anything; after all, the point of Realpolitik is to get the most from other countries while giving the least from one’s own. It’s all right to give as long as you get. Instead, the story of the early Obama Administration’s foreign policy is one of apologies and concessions for nothing in return, as others have noted. Pakistan and Afghanistan are merely pointless fronts in this aggressive policy of preemptive surrender.   Indeed, the remarkable thing is that not only is Obama not winning ground for traditional American foreign policy, he is not doing all that well for his stated goals either. Any reasonable observer, two months gone, having listened to the candidate’s, President-elect’s, and President’s speeches on the subject, would have said that Obama had three foreign policy goals for the region: First, win the war in Afghanistan (and Pakistan, when he focused on the topic); second, shore up the global economy there with his emphasis on government spending; and, finally, bringing China and India on board with a global carbon emissions scheme.   Today, Obama is negotiating with warlords with $25MM bounties on their heads in Afghanistan and, in an unsurprising move, disavowing “victory” there; giving up fiscal stimulus to bow to the developing world’s demands for handouts; and, oh yeah, China and India have rejected any carbon limitations scheme. In the interest of charity, I won’t dwell on the fact that the stepped-up military operations in Pakistan – that’s the Pakistan with whom Obama has thrown in America’s lot – are less than wildly popular there, nor that Pakistan is spending U.S. aid money paying off the fanatics running the regions being hit by American strikes, nor that the next indictment of Administration lawyers will likely come from Islamabad.   This is not a foreign policy, it is a mess. It is not realism, but a resignation to the way the world wants to go, a rejection of the idea that America can influence it. It is a destruction of years of bipartisan effort to align democracies with common interests against failed states and rising tyrants, from which no good is coming.   It is a failure. God help us – and God help India – if that failure lasts four more years.   Christopher Badeaux is a Senior Editor of The New Ledger.   http://newledger.com/2009/04/obamas-india-pakistan-mess/     From pawan.durani at gmail.com Wed Apr 15 19:35:14 2009 From: pawan.durani at gmail.com (Pawan Durani) Date: Wed, 15 Apr 2009 19:35:14 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Non-stick pans? In-Reply-To: References: <190B1742-CCD4-45E7-84D8-8200651D0818@sarai.net> <341380d00904150509o4483923el435a4526a298cc70@mail.gmail.com> <6b79f1a70904150515p2fb37c31rafb97507a390c9d7@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <6b79f1a70904150705v4b03178esfa86153b306a366@mail.gmail.com> Perhaps as much as a leech which is stickable.... On Wed, Apr 15, 2009 at 5:52 PM, Shuddhabrata Sengupta wrote: > That would be difficult, how can we blame the non-performance of a > non-stick pan on a non-stick pan.On another note, how many sitcks does it > take to make a non-stick pan stick to its word not to stick like a leech to > the target of its ire? > > On 15-Apr-09, at 5:45 PM, Pawan Durani wrote: > > No ....let us blame the performance of non stick pan on Narendra Modi and > RSS and 'communal' BJP that would make certain people happy.... > > Pawan > > On Wed, Apr 15, 2009 at 5:39 PM, anupam chakravartty >wrote: > > actually this is more about eggs and their attachments. > > On 4/15/09, Jeebesh wrote: > > > dear All, > > i face this strange problem with non-stick pans. they all say non- > stick but the omelet always get stuck in the end in these pans. > > weird > > warmly > jeebesh > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > subscribe in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> > > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > subscribe in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> > > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > subscribe in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> > > > Shuddhabrata Sengupta > The Sarai Programme at CSDS > Raqs Media Collective > shuddha at sarai.net > www.sarai.net > www.raqsmediacollective.net > > > From kauladityaraj at gmail.com Wed Apr 15 20:22:01 2009 From: kauladityaraj at gmail.com (Aditya Raj Kaul) Date: Wed, 15 Apr 2009 20:22:01 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] The Lone Ranger or "Lone - The FANATIC" Message-ID: <6353c690904150752p79d40861v81fddb1c786a4715@mail.gmail.com> The Lone ranger *Neelesh Misra, Hindustan Times *April 15, 2009 * Link - http://www.hindustantimes.com/StoryPage/FullcoverageStoryPage.aspx?sectionName=ViewsSectionPage&id=ce56bf31-0480-4a86-a280-2124ed7ec532MyIndiamyvote2009_Special&Headline=The+Lone+ranger * Many years ago, I sat at the home of Mirwaiz Umar Farooq, Kashmir’s highest Islamic cleric, and asked him how it felt to oppose Indian rule in Kashmir and yet have to write ‘Indian’ as his citizenship in visa applications. “It’s just a piece of paper,” he had replied, in the middle of our joint crib about slow internet speed in Kashmir. Separatist leader Sajjad Lone told us just that this weekend, how the nomination form he will soon sign for parliamentary elections, overturning years of anti-India campaigns, is just a change in “strategy, not ideology” – just a piece of paper, really. Many people in Kashmir would call it a sell-out; those outside would call it hypocrisy. But in a land where nothing out-of-the box has emerged for years, Sajjad Lone’s decision to contest is the most audacious breakthrough to come out of Kashmir in a very long time. With that, Lone has truly come to represent the new aspirations of young Kashmiris, who nurse discontent against India but also want to move on, and not keep their lives forever fossilised in the political quagmire. Umar Farooq and Sajjad Lone have long been bound by their common, if disparate, separatist campaign — apart from the fact that their fathers, top Kashmiri leaders, were killed on the same day, May 21, 12 years apart. But Sajjad has just made a fascinating leap of imagination from all that the Mirwaiz and his separatist colleagues stand for. This lot has long fought a war of negatives — a battle against Indian rule, based on nothing beyond that. If India were to tell the rival factions of the Hurriyat Conference, “We withdraw from Kashmir, please run it from tomorrow morning”, they would wake up clueless, with no idea of what kind of nation they want, how it would run, and how people would sustain themselves. It’s a separatist campaign that ran out of ideas years ago, having said and done nothing new in two decades. The people of Kashmir saw through that last November in a state election where they voted overwhelmingly. It was a vote not for India or its rule in Kashmir, as jingoistic commentators like to point out, but a demand for good governance and a rebuff to separatists who had asked people to boycott the elections. It’s quite logical that Sajjad is the first one to do this — after all, in this bereft-of-ideas separatist lobby, he was the only person who, at the request of Prime Minister Manmohan Singh, locked himself up in a Gulmarg hotel and wrote Achievable Nationhood, his roadmap for Kashmir. Sadly, it received a burial colder than the snows of Gulmarg. Sajjad is a gentleman politician, despite his mercurial phases — like during the Amarnath agitation, when he suddenly transformed into someone unrecognisable, a rabble- rousing rhetorician who threatened to do a Varun Gandhi to anyone “who dares take an inch of my land”. If he wins — and I hope he does — he would have the responsibility of raising all the uncomfortable questions that have long been pushed aside in Kashmir and never raised in the Indian Parliament, starting with accountability. What happened, for example, to the estimated Rs 50,000 crore of taxpayers’ money that has been sent to Kashmir in development aid from New Delhi since the insurgency began? Why are the thousands of human rights violation cases that lie at the heart of Kashmir’s discontent not getting special courts? Why is the Army presence not scaled down despite dramatically lower levels of violence? And he will have to turn around towards Srinagar and ask why the separatist leadership wants to remain frozen in a directionless war — and say that every grenade thrown in a marketplace that kills a civilian is terrorism. Anything short of asking these questions will be both hypocrisy and a sellout. From kshmendra2005 at yahoo.com Wed Apr 15 20:42:08 2009 From: kshmendra2005 at yahoo.com (Kshmendra Kaul) Date: Wed, 15 Apr 2009 08:12:08 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Reader-list] Where is Kamran Shafi "March of the Taliban" Message-ID: <191301.57385.qm@web57207.mail.re3.yahoo.com> Just yesterday I saw on the DAWN Website this latest column by Kamran Shafi. Today I wanted to read it. It is gone.   So is Kamran Shafi from the list of columnists writing for DAWN. Also gone from the DAWN Website are the (earlier archived) recent columns of Kamran Shafi   Did this "March of the Taliban" piece have anything to do with this turn of events? Or is it just my imagination about Kamran Shafi no longer being featured in DAWN?   Kshmendra     "March of the Taliban" by Kamran Shafi   ON Saturday, March 11, a convoy of 10 double-cabin four-wheel drive pick-up trucks loaded with Taliban armed with every description of portable weapons - Kalashnikovs, rocket launchers, heavy machine guns - drove from Daggar the headquarters of Buner district to the villages of Sohawa and Dagai in Buner.   It entered Swabi district at Jhanda village, drove through the district headquarter (the town of Swabi), drove on to the motorway, exited at Mardan, drove through the cantonment of Mardan and, showing their weapons for all to see, went on towards Malakand.   In doing the above, the Taliban broke many laws of the state of Pakistan not least those that prohibit the possession of heavy weapons; showing weapons publicly and so on. They drove through a district HQ of a district they have not yet occupied (but are well on the way sooner rather than later, given the non-governance being exhibited by the ANP non-government of the Frontier); on the federally policed motorway; through an army cantonment - as a matter of fact right past the Punjab Regimental Centre’s shopping plaza containing the usual bakery and pastry-shop run by serving soldiers - and thence through the rest of the crowded city of Mardan which is also the home of the chief minister of the province.   Must have struck the fear of God into the populace of the villages/cities/ towns/cantonments they drove through, these ferocious men who so recently humbled the great Pakistan Army! So what am I going on about, talking of the laws of the state? What state? What laws? Much shame should adhere to the various actors, or shall we call them jokers, who are prancing about on the national stage striking nonsensical attitudes and mouthing pitiable platitudes.   Just as one example, the very same ‘leaders’ of the ANP who just eight days ago admitted on TV that the flogging of poor Chand Bibi had actually happened but that it happened before they signed the (craven) deal with the Taliban, are now saying the flogging never happened! Look at Muslim Khan, the fiery spokesman of the Taliban in Swat who said, again on TV, that the woman was lucky to have got away with a beating - that she should have been stoned to death. He now says there was no beating at all.   As another, the COAS, Gen Ashfaq Kayani says several weeks after the army handed Swat over to the Taliban that it was ready to face any threat, internal or external! Can you even believe any of this? What is happening to this country of ours; how long will we live in denial; when will we realise that if we don’t act now it will all be over; that the Taliban will simply take over the state using the shock and awe that comes from killing wantonly and cruelly.   Let’s go back to the most recent ‘flag march’ the Taliban carried out from Buner to Mardan via Swabi and see its effects already furthering the Taliban’s agenda. Please go to http://buner.com and see what mayhem they are creating there, recruiting jobless youths by encouraging them to ‘take-over’ their respective areas and neighbourhoods. What, pray, would the loquacious Mian Iftikhar, the Frontier’s information minister, say about this latest in a series of coming conquests for the Taliban?   Does he know that Mansehra and Haripur are next on the hit list and that once in Mansehra the Taliban are but a few hours’ drive from the Karakoram Highway? Does someone in the federal non-government know that once they tie up with the Sunni Chilasis who hate the Shia Gilgitis with a passion, there will be havoc of a very special kind in our Northern Areas?   Is Islamabad the Beautiful cognisant of the fact that our great and good friend, China, is already up to here with the Taliban and others of their ilk, who have forever interfered in their restive province of Xinjiang. This interference goes back to the early 1980s when the highway opened to public traffic and I found myself in the company of two American friends at the Chinese customs post which was then located just below the Khunjerab Pass on the Chinese side.   We noticed that our Pakistani companions, most of them bearded young men, were being searched most closely and out came copies of the Quran from their baggage which the Chinese confiscated saying there were enough copies in China. It is too well known to repeat again the charge the Chinese have oft laid at our door that Chinese citizens are trained in guerrilla training camps in the Frontier.   So, has our FO, ‘unaware’ that it usually is about matters that concern the country that it supposedly serves, taken stock of how the Chinese might react to the march of the Taliban? How will they do when they see that the Taliban are advancing, unchecked, to threaten the one land link China has with Pakistan, and through it with the rest of the world, not forgetting Gwadar? And that once there, given the fact that they face no real opposition from the great Pakistan Army, it is but a day’s drive to the Chinese border itself?   Have our Napoleons and Guderians and Rommels given any thought to any of the above? Where are they and our hopelessly inadequate government in Islamabad the Beautiful in all of this? Have they even begun to realise the gravity of the situation our country is faced with? That if they don’t act fast the Taliban will pick up enough recruits to seriously threaten them and their ill-led and poorly motivated troops? Whilst they might well think that they are safe in their palatial villas guarded night and day by weapons-toting guards and barricades and tens of servants, all it will take is one beheaded body per cantonment every second day for their guards to throw in the towel.   On the ‘bloody civilian’ side, Shah Mehmood Qureshi has been talking down to the Indians most recently in words that are a lot of hot air and bluster. On Swat: ‘The whole of Swat is neither under Taliban control nor is being attacked by them’! On the ISI: ‘Without ISI’s help you (India?!) could not have apprehended the 700 or so Al Qaeda operatives’. As to his first statement the minister obviously needs to read the papers/see TV. For the second I can only say that he is mightily ignorant if he means the 700 as part of those that Musharraf sold to the Americans for $5000 each. Of whom at least 90 per cent have been proved to be innocent by none other than their jailors in Guantanamo. So have a heart, minister.   There is a great furore going on in our self-righteous media about how Pakistan will not accept aid under any conditionality. In the first place it will starve, which isn’t a bad idea at all considering that our brass hats will come crashing down to reality; in the second, let’s see if we have a country by then!   In the meantime, could the non-government of the ANP please resign for its acts of omission and commission re: Swat and Buner.   (The article first appeared in DAWN. Email address: kshafi1 at yahoo.co.uk)   http://pkonweb.com/2009/04/14/march-of-the-taliban/   DAWN CACHED http://www.dawn.com/wps/wcm/connect/dawn-content-library/dawn/the-newspaper/columnists/kamran-shafi-march-of-the-taliban     From cubbykabi at yahoo.com Wed Apr 15 20:47:56 2009 From: cubbykabi at yahoo.com (kabi cubby sherman) Date: Wed, 15 Apr 2009 20:47:56 +0530 (IST) Subject: [Reader-list] Fw: [QAM] An announcement. Please forward Message-ID: <954178.81929.qm@web94711.mail.in2.yahoo.com> kabi ----- Forwarded Message ---- From: stree sangam To: queerazadimumbai at googlegroups.com Sent: Wednesday, 15 April, 2009 7:37:37 PM Subject: [QAM] An announcement. Please forward Front Line Fellowship for Human Rights Defenders - 2009 Front Line Fellowship 2009 The purpose of the Fellowship program is to offer a possibility for human rights defenders at risk to take some time out from their normal work to undertake a project which will further develop their capacities and contribute to the protection of human rights defenders internationally. Front Line Fellowships will now be offered on a more flexible basis for periods of one to six months. The locations will also be flexible and could include Dublin, Brussels or another venue to be discussed. Applicants should submit a letter addressing the following topics: - the candidate’s experience as a human rights defender and details of their current role; - details of any threats, harassment, detention, ill-treatment or other negative consequences faced as a result of the candidate’s human rights work; - a proposal of a project or skills to work on - topics the candidate would particularly like to study as part of the fellowship; - requested location and why - period of time required and why - how the candidate’s participation in the fellowship would contribute to their human rights work - how participation will contribute to the strengthened protection of human rights defenders nationally/internationally. Applications will be assessed on an ongoing basis and should be sent to Tara at frontlinedefenders.org -- LESBIANS ON THE LINE 9833278171 Mondays, Wednesdays and Saturdays (5pm - 8pm) You can also reach us at: LABIA/ Stree Sangam P.O. Box 16613 Mumbai 400 019. --~--~---------~--~----~------------~-------~--~----~ "To know more about Queer Azadi, click the link below" http://queerazaadi.wordpress.com -~----------~----~----~----~------~----~------~--~--- Add more friends to your messenger and enjoy! Go to http://messenger.yahoo.com/invite/ From delhi.yunus at gmail.com Wed Apr 15 20:54:51 2009 From: delhi.yunus at gmail.com (Syed Yunus) Date: Wed, 15 Apr 2009 20:54:51 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Teesta Setalwad and her dance of death for gains. In-Reply-To: <61164a90904150056t769080d2g6ed4e7b04bc73f72@mail.gmail.com> References: <61164a90904150056t769080d2g6ed4e7b04bc73f72@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: Dear all, looking at all the filth thrown at teestha i conclude that she is a fine lady and doing a great work. & this happens everytime somebody is able to break the propaganda of a bunch of loosers, good for nothing people on this list. Yunus On 4/15/09, Rajen Uppinangadi wrote: > > Sir, > what would you say about the "honest" Manmohan Singh who secured votes for > his pet N-deal, dishonestly, having dinner at state cost with retiring > speaker as the state he represents, Assam is having its tragedies of > blasts.?Glutton who dines when citizens starve.? > As to Theesta, her father Justice Setalwad was eminent jurist, used his > wisdom for the governance of just laws and good adjudication. This pink > loose chaddi of Theesta is so much of a fanatic that she has time for > defending the culprits based on the faith, not on the innocence. > Regards. > > Rajen. > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > subscribe in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> -- Change is the only constant in life ! From delhi.yunus at gmail.com Wed Apr 15 21:01:47 2009 From: delhi.yunus at gmail.com (Syed Yunus) Date: Wed, 15 Apr 2009 21:01:47 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Teesta Setalwad and her dance of death for gains. In-Reply-To: <61164a90904150056t769080d2g6ed4e7b04bc73f72@mail.gmail.com> References: <61164a90904150056t769080d2g6ed4e7b04bc73f72@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: Also these bunch of losers do not have any original thoughts of their own. On 4/15/09, Rajen Uppinangadi wrote: > > Sir, > what would you say about the "honest" Manmohan Singh who secured votes for > his pet N-deal, dishonestly, having dinner at state cost with retiring > speaker as the state he represents, Assam is having its tragedies of > blasts.?Glutton who dines when citizens starve.? > As to Theesta, her father Justice Setalwad was eminent jurist, used his > wisdom for the governance of just laws and good adjudication. This pink > loose chaddi of Theesta is so much of a fanatic that she has time for > defending the culprits based on the faith, not on the innocence. > Regards. > > Rajen. > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > subscribe in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> -- Change is the only constant in life ! From kauladityaraj at gmail.com Wed Apr 15 22:04:14 2009 From: kauladityaraj at gmail.com (Aditya Raj Kaul) Date: Wed, 15 Apr 2009 22:04:14 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Teesta Setalwad and her dance of death for gains. In-Reply-To: References: <61164a90904150056t769080d2g6ed4e7b04bc73f72@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <6353c690904150934n3346dd67t7f0b86715ef12e43@mail.gmail.com> lol.. I can just feel sorry.. On Wed, Apr 15, 2009 at 9:01 PM, Syed Yunus wrote: > Also these bunch of losers do not have any original thoughts of their own. > > On 4/15/09, Rajen Uppinangadi wrote: > > > > Sir, > > what would you say about the "honest" Manmohan Singh who secured votes > for > > his pet N-deal, dishonestly, having dinner at state cost with retiring > > speaker as the state he represents, Assam is having its tragedies of > > blasts.?Glutton who dines when citizens starve.? > > As to Theesta, her father Justice Setalwad was eminent jurist, used his > > wisdom for the governance of just laws and good adjudication. This pink > > loose chaddi of Theesta is so much of a fanatic that she has time for > > defending the culprits based on the faith, not on the innocence. > > Regards. > > > > Rajen. > > _________________________________________ > > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > > Critiques & Collaborations > > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > > subscribe in the subject header. > > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> > > > > > -- > > Change is the only constant in life ! > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > subscribe in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> > From alinamal2009 at gmail.com Wed Apr 15 22:40:19 2009 From: alinamal2009 at gmail.com (Alina MediaArtLab) Date: Wed, 15 Apr 2009 21:10:19 +0400 Subject: [Reader-list] CALL FOR ENTRIES!!!X Media Forum in the frames of Moscow International Film Festival Message-ID: <58e659f0904151010j413c4515g197a9f76b5fc6854@mail.gmail.com> The hole media spectrum: cinema extension! MediaArtLab Centre for Culture has started to receive requests for taking part in Media Forum 2009. It will be held in the frame of 31 Moscow International Film Festival from 23 to 28 of June. This is the 10 years Media Forum exists. The objective of Media Forum is to demonstrate the connection between traditional and modern branches of screen culture, the impact of technological innovations on visual arts. We hope that you will be interested to learn more about Media Forum 2009 here http://mediaforum.mediaartlab.ru/en/ From anansi1 at earthlink.net Wed Apr 15 22:45:55 2009 From: anansi1 at earthlink.net (Paul D. Miller) Date: Wed, 15 Apr 2009 13:15:55 -0400 (GMT-04:00) Subject: [Reader-list] Earth Day Concert: Dj Spooky + The Flaming Lips, 4/19/09 Message-ID: <2096609.1239815756540.JavaMail.root@mswamui-valley.atl.sa.earthlink.net> Hey people - If any of you are around Washington, DC this weekend, we're having a large concert on the DC Mall with me and The Flaming Lips etc for Earthday. It's an outdoors and free large scale scenario. April 19, 2009 from noon until sunset. details - http://greenapplefestival.com/newsletter/dc/dcnewsletter.html If you're in the area and want to see a large festival of progressive folks, it'll be a really fun event - it's even hosted by the infamous actor, Chevy Chase! Surely a fun way to spend a Sunday afternoon. If you can't make it, it'll be live webcast on the Greenapple page on Myspace Myspace.com/greenapplefestival Come by! I'll be screening some of the footage from my film that I shot in Antarctica as well - on very big screens! You can see the trailer for the film at: www.djspooky.com/art/terra_nova.php in peace, Paul aka Dj Spooky From pawan.durani at gmail.com Wed Apr 15 23:20:03 2009 From: pawan.durani at gmail.com (Pawan Durani) Date: Wed, 15 Apr 2009 23:20:03 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Atalji's appeal to Indian voters Message-ID: <6b79f1a70904151050i26c49d8dw27120a6520e04ba1@mail.gmail.com> My Dear Fellow Citizens, The decisive hour for electing the 15th Lok Sabha is upon us. Today, our nation is confronted by serious challenges of every kind. To successfully meet these challenges the nation needs a strong government and a determined leader. A government that by means of good governance, can ensure security for and rapid development of our country – a promise that has been made and will be delivered by Shri LK Advani. I am unable to meet all of you due to poor health. However, I am grateful to you for the belongingness and affection that you have showered upon me. What perturbs me much more than my own health is the health of my India. The cure for that lies in your firm resolve. Shri Lal Krishna Advani and I have been working together since 1952. His unblemished character and resolute personality have shown like a light torch in Indian politics. He is skilful in the art of taking up challenges and overcoming them. He is a compassionate human being and an exceptional leader whose best is yet to come. I firmly believe becoming the Prime Minister of India will bring out the best in him. I appeal to all of you, especially to the youth of our country, to extend your wholehearted support, assistance and mandate to the BJP and its allied parties. Only Advaniji is capable of fulfilling the dream that both of us have seen together. Adavaniji can provide a new direction to the governance of this country so that we create an India that is devoid of poverty, hunger, despair and injustice. I invite you to join me in taking a firm resolve to create a strong government under the determined leadership of Shree Advani for a strong and prosperous India. This will only happen when you make the candidates of BJP and its allies from your region victorious. Thank you, Atal Behari Vajpayee http://www.lkadvani.in/eng/content/view/865/427/ From rama.sangye at gmail.com Wed Apr 15 23:32:27 2009 From: rama.sangye at gmail.com (V Ramaswamy) Date: Wed, 15 Apr 2009 23:32:27 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] The Goddess Hingala Of Baluchistan In-Reply-To: <47886.62110.qm@web57207.mail.re3.yahoo.com> References: <5af37bb0904140440x4a2585dcu8998eafad2fece0a@mail.gmail.com> <47886.62110.qm@web57207.mail.re3.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <6ade4a8f0904151102s1123b28dg5907e0a8f360d10e@mail.gmail.com> Bengalis of an older generation would remember a celebrated film (of the late 50s or early 60s I think), with Uttam Kumar and Sabitri, called "Maru Tirtha Hinglaj". A hit song from that film was "Koto dur, aar koto dur, bolo Ma". There is a Mahanirban Math in south Calcutta, and the swami who founded that, I think his name was Nityananda, had been a bhakta at Hinglaj. If I am not wrong, one of the parts of Kali is supposed to have landed there. Is / was a centre of tantra, like Kamakhya. VR From shuddha at sarai.net Thu Apr 16 00:39:30 2009 From: shuddha at sarai.net (Shuddhabrata Sengupta) Date: Thu, 16 Apr 2009 00:39:30 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] A Modest Appeal to Election Propagandists In-Reply-To: <6b79f1a70904151050i26c49d8dw27120a6520e04ba1@mail.gmail.com> References: <6b79f1a70904151050i26c49d8dw27120a6520e04ba1@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <2F94A86F-611C-4EE0-A9A4-9DD953E858D7@sarai.net> Dear All, I never thought the day would come when the reader list, after all the nonsense it has had to swallow over the last few years, would also have to bear with the indignity of being subject to missives sent on behalf of the person, Atal Behari Vajpayee, who having hobbled along past his sell by date, continues to peddle the tripe that goes by the name of his pathetic party. This was meant to be a list for serious discussion, and has instead become a forum for the less than mediocre propaganda, mainly of the seemingly inexhaustible far right. Not just jibes (of course, unsubstantiated) against activists, but now, much worse, the pompous serenade of someone who was not just the worst prime minister (A B Vajpayee( but also probably the worst poet that this country has had the misfortune to have been subject to. I hope that you will all (irrespective of political affiliation and loyalties) join me in requesting everyone concerned not to burden us with this kind of puerile election propaganda in the future. It is bad enough that I have to take calls from the BJP and the Congress and the Third, Fourth, Left, Right and my phone an in my mailbox, it is worse to see this space that we have tried to nurture for autonomous discussion being slowly crept on by electioneering. In this election, where no party and no candidate has any vision worth discussing, the last thing we need is to have the space between our ears being filled with election spam on the reader list. Please try and keep election garbage out of here. thanks Shuddha On 15-Apr-09, at 11:20 PM, Pawan Durani wrote: > My Dear Fellow Citizens, > > The decisive hour for electing the 15th Lok Sabha is upon us. > Today, our > nation is confronted by serious challenges of every kind. To > successfully > meet these challenges the nation needs a strong government and a > determined > leader. A government that by means of good governance, can ensure > security > for and rapid development of our country – a promise that has been > made and > will be delivered by Shri LK Advani. > > I am unable to meet all of you due to poor health. However, I am > grateful to > you for the belongingness and affection that you have showered upon > me. What > perturbs me much more than my own health is the health of my India. > The cure > for that lies in your firm resolve. > > Shri Lal Krishna Advani and I have been working together since > 1952. His > unblemished character and resolute personality have shown like a > light torch > in Indian politics. He is skilful in the art of taking up > challenges and > overcoming them. He is a compassionate human being and an > exceptional leader > whose best is yet to come. I firmly believe becoming the Prime > Minister of > India will bring out the best in him. > > I appeal to all of you, especially to the youth of our country, to > extend > your wholehearted support, assistance and mandate to the BJP and > its allied > parties. Only Advaniji is capable of fulfilling the dream that both > of us > have seen together. Adavaniji can provide a new direction to the > governance > of this country so that we create an India that is devoid of poverty, > hunger, despair and injustice. > > I invite you to join me in taking a firm resolve to create a strong > government under the determined leadership of Shree Advani for a > strong and > prosperous India. This will only happen when you make the > candidates of BJP > and its allies from your region victorious. > > Thank you, > > Atal Behari Vajpayee > > > > http://www.lkadvani.in/eng/content/view/865/427/ > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > subscribe in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> Shuddhabrata Sengupta The Sarai Programme at CSDS Raqs Media Collective shuddha at sarai.net www.sarai.net www.raqsmediacollective.net From zubinpastakia at gmail.com Thu Apr 16 02:51:29 2009 From: zubinpastakia at gmail.com (Zubin Pastakia) Date: Thu, 16 Apr 2009 02:51:29 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] A Modest Appeal to Election Propagandists In-Reply-To: <2F94A86F-611C-4EE0-A9A4-9DD953E858D7@sarai.net> References: <6b79f1a70904151050i26c49d8dw27120a6520e04ba1@mail.gmail.com> <2F94A86F-611C-4EE0-A9A4-9DD953E858D7@sarai.net> Message-ID: <379173b10904151421g77304cb7o19c51e079aefe831@mail.gmail.com> Shuddha, I have been re-reading Orwell lately, and the following paragraph (I have taken the liberty to partition it) continues to prove invaluable in understanding the minds of those that duckspeak: "A Party member is expected to have no private emotions and no respites from enthusiasm. He is supposed to live in a continuous frenzy of hatred of foreign enemies and internal traitors, triumph over victories, and self-abasement before the power and wisdom of the Party. The discontents produced by his bare, unsatisfying life are deliberately turned outwards and dissipated by such devices as the Two Minutes Hate, and the speculations which might possibly induce a sceptical or rebellious attitude are killed in advance by his early acquired inner discipline. "The first and simplest stage in the discipline, which can be taught even to young children, is called, in Newspeak, crimestop. Crimestop means the faculty of stopping short, as though by instinct, at the threshold of any dangerous thought. It includes the power of not grasping analogies, of failing to perceive logical errors, of misunderstanding the simplest arguments if they are inimical to Ingsoc, and of being bored or repelled by any train of thought which is capable of leading in a heretical direction. Crimestop, in short, means protective stupidity. But stupidity is not enough. On the contrary, orthodoxy in the full sense demands a control over one's own mental processes as complete as that of a contortionist over his body. Oceanic society rests ultimately on the belief that Big Brother is omnipotent and that the Party is infallible. But since in reality Big Brother is not omnipotent and the party is not infallible, there is need for an unwearying, moment-to-moment flexibility in the treatment of facts. The keyword here is blackwhite. Like so many Newspeak words, this word has two mutually contradictory meanings. Applied to an opponent, it means the habit of impudently claiming that black is white, in contradiction of the plain facts. Applied to a Party member, it means a loyal willingness to say that black is white when Party discipline demands this. But it means also the ability to believe that black is white, and more, to know that black is white, and to forget that one has ever believed the contrary. This demands a continuous alteration of the past, made possible by the system of thought which really embraces all the rest, and which is known in Newspeak as doublethink." Best, Zubin On Thu, Apr 16, 2009 at 12:39 AM, Shuddhabrata Sengupta wrote: > > Dear All, > > I never thought the day would come when the reader list, after all > the nonsense it has had to swallow over the last few years, would > also have to bear with the indignity of being subject to missives > sent on behalf of the person, Atal Behari Vajpayee, who having > hobbled along past his sell by date, continues to peddle the tripe > that goes by the name of his pathetic party. > > This was meant to be a list for serious discussion, and has instead > become a forum for the less than mediocre propaganda, mainly of the > seemingly inexhaustible far right. Not just jibes (of course, > unsubstantiated) against activists, but now, much worse, the pompous > serenade of someone who was not just the worst prime minister (A B > Vajpayee( but also probably the worst poet that this country has had > the misfortune to have been subject to. > > I hope that you will all (irrespective of political affiliation and > loyalties) join me in requesting everyone concerned not to burden us > with this kind of puerile election propaganda in the future. It is > bad enough that I have to take calls from the BJP and the Congress > and the Third, Fourth, Left, Right and  my phone an in my mailbox, it > is worse to see this space that we have tried to nurture for > autonomous discussion being slowly crept on by electioneering. In > this election, where no party and no candidate has any vision worth > discussing, the last thing we need is to have the space between our > ears being filled with election spam on the reader list. > > Please try and keep election garbage out of here. > > thanks > > Shuddha > > > On 15-Apr-09, at 11:20 PM, Pawan Durani wrote: > > > My Dear Fellow Citizens, > > > > The decisive hour for electing the 15th Lok Sabha is upon us. > > Today, our > > nation is confronted by serious challenges of every kind. To > > successfully > > meet these challenges the nation needs a strong government and a > > determined > > leader. A government that by means of good governance, can ensure > > security > > for and rapid development of our country – a promise that has been > > made and > > will be delivered by Shri LK Advani. > > > > I am unable to meet all of you due to poor health. However, I am > > grateful to > > you for the belongingness and affection that you have showered upon > > me. What > > perturbs me much more than my own health is the health of my India. > > The cure > > for that lies in your firm resolve. > > > > Shri Lal Krishna Advani and I have been working together since > > 1952. His > > unblemished character and resolute personality have shown like a > > light torch > > in Indian politics. He is skilful in the art of taking up > > challenges and > > overcoming them. He is a compassionate human being and an > > exceptional leader > > whose best is yet to come. I firmly believe becoming the Prime > > Minister of > > India will bring out the best in him. > > > > I appeal to all of you, especially to the youth of our country, to > > extend > > your wholehearted support, assistance and mandate to the BJP and > > its allied > > parties. Only Advaniji is capable of fulfilling the dream that both > > of us > > have seen together. Adavaniji can provide a new direction to the > > governance > > of this country so that we create an India that is devoid of poverty, > > hunger, despair and injustice. > > > > I invite you to join me in taking a firm resolve to create a strong > > government under the determined leadership of Shree Advani for a > > strong and > > prosperous India. This will only happen when you make the > > candidates of BJP > > and its allies from your region victorious. > > > > Thank you, > > > > Atal Behari Vajpayee > > > > > > > > http://www.lkadvani.in/eng/content/view/865/427/ > > _________________________________________ > > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > > Critiques & Collaborations > > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > > subscribe in the subject header. > > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> > > Shuddhabrata Sengupta > The Sarai Programme at CSDS > Raqs Media Collective > shuddha at sarai.net > www.sarai.net > www.raqsmediacollective.net > > > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with subscribe in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> From supreet.sethi at gmail.com Thu Apr 16 07:52:39 2009 From: supreet.sethi at gmail.com (s|s) Date: Thu, 16 Apr 2009 07:52:39 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Earth hour: Green stupidity/Romanticist aesthetics Message-ID: The green propaganda has been successful. In fact, it has been so successful, that there is no need for offering facts for getting certain segment of society to act upon its 'dictate'. I came to know about Earth hour next day when large black blob on front-page in a popular news-paper announced that 600 MW electricity was saved because people switched off their lights and used candles instead. While I congratulate all who were part of this experiment for being sensitive towards 'mother earth'. I must add, it just makes you worst offenders in robbing its resources by being ludicrously un-informed. The power that was not consumed, apparently was saved. Important question is where? Did somebody hire batteries to be charged with the 'saved' power. Because frankly any power which has not being consumed in a power grid is wasted. Was NTPC or other power companies informed that you need to produce less power during this time? On consumption part of the business, using candles is frankly more polluting than consuming power from grid by order of four times, even if power is produced using coal. This atleast makes people who participated in 'Earth hour' worst offenders by not using up electricity that has already been produced and using candles which requires transport by trucks, lorries compared to relatively efficient grids. Turning off unnecessary switches on day to day is all that is required. Supreet From ambarien at yahoo.co.uk Thu Apr 16 08:01:27 2009 From: ambarien at yahoo.co.uk (ambarien qadar) Date: Wed, 15 Apr 2009 19:31:27 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Reader-list] Fw: Fwd: cinema city curtain raiser Message-ID: <182461.15851.qm@web24616.mail.ird.yahoo.com> Hi everybody, Apologies for cross posting. Please try to come for The Cinema City curtain raiser if you are in Delhi on 19th evening. For programme and venue details, read on... Ambarien > > Dear Friends, > > > > Majlis will present  curtain raiser for its current > > project Cinema > > City: Bombay/Mumbai at IIC, New Delhi on 19th April, > 2009, > > 6.30pm. > > Cinema City is an interdisciplinary practice based > archive > > project. > > The project eventually will include other Asian cities > > which are > > marked by the productions of cinema. > > > > > > > > Programme: > > > > a)  Film-  Dark Room by Renu Savant  (10 minutes), > the > > city as a > > darkroom creates many chemical reactions through its > > agitation and > > development of emulsions > > > > b)      Introduction to the project:  Madhusree > Dutta > > (5 minutes) > > > > c)      Religion of cinema: An audio jatra: > Shrikant > > Agawane (10 minutes) > > > > d)            Cinema-City-Nation: time > Line: > > Renu Savant / Hansa > > Thapliyal (15 minutes) > > > > d)    Film- Screenplay Dailogue Synopsis by Rrivu > Laha > > (10 minutes), > > portrait of a cinema citizen > > > > e)    Cartographing the Cinema City: Rohan > Shivkumar > > (20 minutes), > > mapping cinemas         in the city > > > > f)   Notes on  Pila House: Abeer Gupta (10 > minutes) > > > > h)       Phantom Lady or Kismet: a > photoromance,  > > Pushpamala N (15 minutes) > > > > > > > > Please do come if your in Delhi. > > > > Regards, > > > > Madhusree > > > > > > > > > > > > -- > > www.majlisbombay.org > > > > > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to > reader-list-request at sarai.net with subscribe in the subject > header. > To unsubscribe: > https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: > <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> From bijoyinic at yahoo.com Thu Apr 16 08:08:16 2009 From: bijoyinic at yahoo.com (Bijoyini Chatterjee) Date: Wed, 15 Apr 2009 19:38:16 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Reader-list] oops I am sorry Message-ID: <754339.39475.qm@web32706.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Dear All, Targeted ads in Gmail has always amused me but this is the first time I felt compelled to click on one. (No prizes for guessing the contents of my email to warrant this advt!). The URL piqued my curiosity and this is a curious website -- An open confessional of sorts. http://www.oopsimsorry.com/ Curiouser and curiouser becomes the Internet, --Bijoyini From pawan.durani at gmail.com Thu Apr 16 08:43:47 2009 From: pawan.durani at gmail.com (Pawan Durani) Date: Thu, 16 Apr 2009 08:43:47 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] A Modest Appeal to Election Propagandists In-Reply-To: <2F94A86F-611C-4EE0-A9A4-9DD953E858D7@sarai.net> References: <6b79f1a70904151050i26c49d8dw27120a6520e04ba1@mail.gmail.com> <2F94A86F-611C-4EE0-A9A4-9DD953E858D7@sarai.net> Message-ID: <6b79f1a70904152013v15d69a70oc44cb086fe2d26ca@mail.gmail.com> Dear All, What may be serious for 'x' may be non serious for 'y'. Who defines the limits ? Unless the group is meant to support a particular ideology leaning towards my weaker hand side. This group has been forwarded mails from pathetic writers and Kashmir expert like 'Aran Dhat Teri Ki Roy ' and we had to bear that . It is understandable that someone may not understand poetry of Mr Vajpayee as I do not understand Marx either. However the time is ripe that communal right wing party like Communists , who have an election with radical Muslim party like PDP of Madhani in Kerela should be returned without any seat across the country. The dual standards of pathetic and hazardous party needs to be exposed . At least we may be saving the future generation of innocent youths who undergo a brain wash by the followers of foreign ideology. Regards pawan On Thu, Apr 16, 2009 at 12:39 AM, Shuddhabrata Sengupta wrote: > Dear All, > I never thought the day would come when the reader list, after all the > nonsense it has had to swallow over the last few years, would also have to > bear with the indignity of being subject to missives sent on behalf of the > person, Atal Behari Vajpayee, who having hobbled along past his sell by > date, continues to peddle the tripe that goes by the name of his pathetic > party. > > This was meant to be a list for serious discussion, and has instead become > a forum for the less than mediocre propaganda, mainly of the seemingly > inexhaustible far right. Not just jibes (of course, unsubstantiated) against > activists, but now, much worse, the pompous serenade of someone who was not > just the worst prime minister (A B Vajpayee( but also probably the worst > poet that this country has had the misfortune to have been subject to. > > I hope that you will all (irrespective of political affiliation and > loyalties) join me in requesting everyone concerned not to burden us with > this kind of puerile election propaganda in the future. It is bad enough > that I have to take calls from the BJP and the Congress and the Third, > Fourth, Left, Right and my phone an in my mailbox, it is worse to see this > space that we have tried to nurture for autonomous discussion being slowly > crept on by electioneering. In this election, where no party and no > candidate has any vision worth discussing, the last thing we need is to have > the space between our ears being filled with election spam on the reader > list. > > Please try and keep election garbage out of here. > > thanks > > Shuddha > > > On 15-Apr-09, at 11:20 PM, Pawan Durani wrote: > > My Dear Fellow Citizens, > > The decisive hour for electing the 15th Lok Sabha is upon us. Today, our > nation is confronted by serious challenges of every kind. To successfully > meet these challenges the nation needs a strong government and a determined > leader. A government that by means of good governance, can ensure security > for and rapid development of our country – a promise that has been made and > will be delivered by Shri LK Advani. > > I am unable to meet all of you due to poor health. However, I am grateful > to > you for the belongingness and affection that you have showered upon me. > What > perturbs me much more than my own health is the health of my India. The > cure > for that lies in your firm resolve. > > Shri Lal Krishna Advani and I have been working together since 1952. His > unblemished character and resolute personality have shown like a light > torch > in Indian politics. He is skilful in the art of taking up challenges and > overcoming them. He is a compassionate human being and an exceptional > leader > whose best is yet to come. I firmly believe becoming the Prime Minister of > India will bring out the best in him. > > I appeal to all of you, especially to the youth of our country, to extend > your wholehearted support, assistance and mandate to the BJP and its allied > parties. Only Advaniji is capable of fulfilling the dream that both of us > have seen together. Adavaniji can provide a new direction to the governance > of this country so that we create an India that is devoid of poverty, > hunger, despair and injustice. > > I invite you to join me in taking a firm resolve to create a strong > government under the determined leadership of Shree Advani for a strong and > prosperous India. This will only happen when you make the candidates of BJP > and its allies from your region victorious. > > Thank you, > > Atal Behari Vajpayee > > > > http://www.lkadvani.in/eng/content/view/865/427/ > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > subscribe in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> > > > Shuddhabrata Sengupta > The Sarai Programme at CSDS > Raqs Media Collective > shuddha at sarai.net > www.sarai.net > www.raqsmediacollective.net > > > From 2tahamehmood at googlemail.com Thu Apr 16 08:53:06 2009 From: 2tahamehmood at googlemail.com (Taha Mehmood) Date: Thu, 16 Apr 2009 04:23:06 +0100 Subject: [Reader-list] Test Mail Message-ID: <65be9bf40904152023i10cc7533k390e0b9ce1fcf823@mail.gmail.com> Test Mail. Please Ignore. From 2tahamehmood at googlemail.com Thu Apr 16 08:56:47 2009 From: 2tahamehmood at googlemail.com (Taha Mehmood) Date: Thu, 16 Apr 2009 04:26:47 +0100 Subject: [Reader-list] Stock Prices And smart Cards Message-ID: <65be9bf40904152026y601c9f2w3400df3562c3c17d@mail.gmail.com> Dear All Market seems to be good for companies involved in the manufacture of smart card devices. As the blog-post below indicates- '*The global RFID market is expected to be around $ 5 bn. by 2010. RFID and biometric solutions are growing at a CAGR of 50% and are expected to grow in tandem with retail and manufacturing growth in India. The applicability of Smart Card is expanding with various government agencies announcing usage of smart card for biometric PAN card, Railway Season Tickets, National Identity Cards, Passports, Driving Licenses, Toll Collection, Financial Inclusion Cards (for BPL families) etc., the demand for Smart Card is estimated to be more than 150 bn. units per year and to grow at 48% y-o-y' Regards Taha * Bartronics India Ltd Buy Rs.98* *Industry ITES BSE/ NSE Code 532694 / BARTRONICS Company P/E 5 x FY09E 52 Week H/L Rs. 253 / Rs. 55 Market Cap. (Rs) 2,715 mn 52 Week Avg volumes 143,000 / 215,000 Face Value (Rs) 10 Dividend (FY’08) 0% * *Investment Argument:* �� FCCB fears overdone: Bartronics India Ltd. (BIL) has underperformed the broad market on FCCB concerns. As on December 2008, BIL had outstanding FCCBs worth $ 56 mn., of which $ 6 mn. at a conversion price of Rs. 140 (maturing in FY12) and $ 50 mn. at a conversion price of Rs. 290 (maturing in FY13). Looking at the steady order book and large orders from the government segment, we believe that, company will be able to generate sufficient funds for re-payment of these FCCBs, in the event of the same not getting converted. �� Integrated Operations: With the chip manufacturing unit going on stream BIL has become a fully integrated Smart Card manufacturing unit, which is expected to contribute 45% of the revenues for FY09E. The integrated operation is expected to bring higher operating margins of about 18-19% compared to average margin of about 15-16%. BIL is already an end-to-end service provider – from planning to implementation - for Automatic Identification and Data Collection (AIDC) technology, which consists of Bar Coding and its manifold applications such as Biometrics and Radio Frequency Identification and Data Collection (RFID) etc. �� Government Contracts to Drive Growth: BIL has already won contracts for supply for Smart Cards to Employee State Insurance Corporation (ESIC) amounting to Rs.4bn., from the Rajasthan State Governments for Bhamashah Financial Empowerment Scheme, covering about 5 million families through Biometrically identifiable Smart Cards amounting to Rs 1.5bn., and from the Bihar State Government for supply of Smart Cards to the RSBY scheme for about 4 million families. BIL is bidding for many such projects at State and Central Government levels. These orders have helped BIL de-risk its business, which was dependent on telecom sector so far. Next big opportunity which BIL targeting is banking industry, for chip based ATM, Credit and Debit cards. �� Global Operations: During FY08 BIL has set up two subsidiaries to expand its footprints to global operations. In January 2008, US subsidiary acquired two US based firms Proximities Inc. and Delaware Corporation for a total consideration of $ 50 mn. For FY09E, BIL expects US subsidiary to contribute a top line of ~ $ 40 mn. and the Singapore subsidiary to contribute about $ 15 mn. Financial Highlights: �� For 9MFY09 BIL’s top line was up by 155% y-o-y, at Rs. 4171.91 mn. against Rs. 1634.35 mn. a year ago.. PAT grew by 132% at Rs. 655.51 mn. from Rs. 282.37 mn. for the same period previous year. Teething trouble for newly started Smart Card unit and establishing overseas operations took its toll on the net profit margin, which was down at 15.71% for 9MFY09 compared to 17.28% for 9MFY08. However, we are confident of BIL maintaining net margins at 19-20% going forward. �� For FY09E, we expect company to post a top line of Rs. 5.2bn. and PAT of 0.94bn. Overseas subsidiaries are expected to contribute revenues of around $ 50-55, where as Smart Card unit should contribute in excess of Rs.2bn. and balance from domestic solution business. Outlook & Valuation: �� The global RFID market is expected to be around $ 5 bn. by 2010. RFID and biometric solutions are growing at a CAGR of 50% and are expected to grow in tandem with retail and manufacturing growth in India. The applicability of Smart Card is expanding with various government agencies announcing usage of smart card for biometric PAN card, Railway Season Tickets, National Identity Cards, Passports, Driving Licenses, Toll Collection, Financial Inclusion Cards (for BPL families) etc., the demand for Smart Card is estimated to be more than 150 bn. units per year and to grow at 48% y-o-y. BIL having the highest market share and the first mover advantage is expected to capture the maximum market share in the booming domestic market. Currently, the stock is trading at 4.3x its FY09E earnings. We recommend BUY on the stock for a short term price target of Rs. 130. From 2tahamehmood at googlemail.com Thu Apr 16 08:57:44 2009 From: 2tahamehmood at googlemail.com (Taha Mehmood) Date: Thu, 16 Apr 2009 04:27:44 +0100 Subject: [Reader-list] News Items posted on the net on Multipurpose National Identity Cards-109 Message-ID: <65be9bf40904152027m3dead844t4935c16c58360c97@mail.gmail.com> Dear All, With the election season on, even political parties are competing with each other to claim authorship for introducing MNIC. The Home Minister of India suggests that MNIC was Rajeev Gandhi's idea, while the BJP asserts it was their brainchild. Regards Taha http://theheadlinestoday.com/2009/04/chidambaram-outlines-congress-plan-to.html Wednesday, April 8, 2009 Chidambaram outlines Congress’ plan to tackle terror NEW DELHI, April 7: Union Home Minister P Chidambaram today announced a “comprehensive action plan” by the Congress party to tackle terrorism and said only the Congress could effectively deal with the scourge. “It is only the Indian National Congress that can deal with the scourge of terrorism squarely and decisively but without weakening the delicate strands that have, together, bound our society for centuries,” Chidambaram said, quoting from the booklet on “The Congress party’s pledge - Protecting India From Terror”. Chidambaram said only a responsible government could address the challenge of terrorism on a war-footing. “The Congress party is alive to this challenge. The Congress party is committed to provide strong and decisive leadership to meet the challenge of terrorism. This is our pledge to the people of India,” he said. The booklet outlines the steps the Congress would take to implement anti-terror measures if voted to power. He said the party-led government would also set up a permanent crisis management group or war room. The “war room” will have two main functions. “Provide war room-style operational oversight and control during terror threats or events, and function as a 24-hour watch-post/monitoring centre.” The war room would be “headed by a Cabinet secretary and it will have representatives from the armed forces, at least from its intelligence wing,” the Home Minister said. The party would also establish a judicial task force to fast track trials “to ensure that national security and terror-related cases are tried and completed within 90 days”. The booklet enumerates five tenets the party has formulated as part of its strategy to counter terror. It includes capable and equipped human assets, actionable intelligence and cutting-edge analytics, empowered and coordinated security agencies decisive response to threats and attacks and strong and speedy investigation and prosecution. Chidambaram accused the former National Democratic Alliance (NDA) Government of “mysteriously” slashing the recruitment target for the IPS cadre. “In 1998, when LK Advani was home minister, the recruitment target for the IPS cadre was mysteriously slashed from 85 to 36. The same number of 36 was repeated in the years 1999, 2000 and 2001 and as a result, grave and irreparable damage was done,” he said. “The Congress party will ensure that this deficiency is addressed decisively once and for all, after a panel formed to look into the issue submits its report by May 31, 2009,” he said. Chidambaram said the country’s ability to respond to terror is much better than five years ago and added that “terrorism is a global phenomena”. The situation, he said, had “deteriorated in Pakistan, Bangladesh, Myanmar”. He regretted the serial blasts in Asom on Monday and admitted that they took place despite security personnel being on alert. However, this was not a subject to be politicised and should be seen in the global perspective, the minister said. “It should not be politicised,” he said. Chidambaram said the Multi-Purpose National Identity Card (MNIC- Smart Card) idea was the brainchild of Rajiv Gandhi and the BJP was trying to hijack it. He said the party-led government would ensure that the country has a world-class national security data base and a crime and criminal tacking network and systems. IANS From supreet.sethi at gmail.com Thu Apr 16 09:17:45 2009 From: supreet.sethi at gmail.com (s|s) Date: Thu, 16 Apr 2009 09:17:45 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Stock Prices And smart Cards In-Reply-To: <65be9bf40904152026y601c9f2w3400df3562c3c17d@mail.gmail.com> References: <65be9bf40904152026y601c9f2w3400df3562c3c17d@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: RFID and smart cards are different technologies. Planet M would use RFID for tagging their inventory while ATM cards would use Smart cards. -- ~preet~ From 2tahamehmood at googlemail.com Thu Apr 16 10:42:07 2009 From: 2tahamehmood at googlemail.com (Taha Mehmood) Date: Thu, 16 Apr 2009 06:12:07 +0100 Subject: [Reader-list] Stock Prices And smart Cards In-Reply-To: References: <65be9bf40904152026y601c9f2w3400df3562c3c17d@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <65be9bf40904152212t64b6141arb59b1995194c5b8d@mail.gmail.com> Dear Supreet Thank you for your clarification. The point of the forwarded news item was to indicate the growth in share prices of these technologies and not to categorize them as distinct, of course we all know that as technologies there exists a difference between radio frequency identification and smart cards. However as you might have noticed that specifically the name of a company called Bartronics appears at the beginning of the story. I have, on previous occasions shared with the members of reader list, any news stories which were related to Bartronics. My interest in this company is primarily because of the fact that Bartronics is going to be a major player insofar as the issue of production of MNIC is concerned. Regards Taha From 2tahamehmood at googlemail.com Thu Apr 16 10:56:48 2009 From: 2tahamehmood at googlemail.com (Taha Mehmood) Date: Thu, 16 Apr 2009 06:26:48 +0100 Subject: [Reader-list] Smart health card Message-ID: <65be9bf40904152226q45a59ca6r31ced43d6d3545c9@mail.gmail.com> Dear All That smart card based identification is being tested on all sorts of fringe populations, is one conclusion we can clearly draw from reading the story below, which is about giving smart card to sex workers. We already know that on a national scale, pilot project with respect to MNIC has been completed which included pocket populations comprising of people mostly living on border towns and districts, on a smaller scale though, since last six months, we have seen news reports about need for a smart card based identification systems for fishermen of Kerala or Maharashtra, biometric identification is currently on, I believe, in urban clusters or 'slums' like LNJP and as the story below indicates, commercial sex workers are being roped in too, to share medical information. In this instance, the argument for distributing a smart card is, based on the idea of public health care, as the story suggests- The 'card serves another purpose. It has the medical record of the sex worker, who has to compulsorily get his or her health check up at a clinic once in three months. The card becomes inactive if the holder fails to do this.' Maybe one can think of a benevolent big brother here! Warm regards Taha http://www.dnaindia.com/report.asp?NewsID=1036385 K Raghu Sunday, June 18, 2006 23:17 IST BANGALORE: Under a project facilitated by the Bill and Melinda Gates Foundation, about 500 sex workers in Mysore own chip-embedded smart cards, which when presented during transactions help them get discounts at select shops and hotels and earn them loyalty points that can be redeemed for discounts on later purchases. The shopping basket can include provisions, food at restaurants and clothes. But the card serves another purpose. It has the medical record of the sex worker, who has to compulsorily get his or her health check up at a clinic once in three months. The card becomes inactive if the holder fails to do this. The sex workers will be checked for sexually transmitted diseases (STD) and treatment provided if necessary. The vendors and the health specialists are provided with Simputer, the homegrown handheld device developed by scientists at the Indian Institute of Science (IISc), to bridge the digital divide and the data is stored in real time at a central server to maintain confidentiality. The encrypted card bars access of health records by traders, while doctors cannot find out the business transaction details. "Sex workers face stigma and discrimination in their daily life. The smart card is a symbol of self-esteem that creates a sense of inclusion for them in the society," Ratna, a community member at Ashodaya, a non-government organisation (NGO) that works on AIDS, said. The smart card initiative is being implemented by Ashodaya Women's Co-ordination Committee, Karnataka Health Promotion Trust (KHPT) and Pennant Consulting Services. KHPT reaches about 1400 female and around 200 male sex workers active in Mysore city and most of them conduct their business during the day. They earn anywhere between Rs200 and Rs1,500 a day. "It is not uncommon for us to buy as many as three new saris a month. Looking attractive is essential in our trade," Pushpa, a sex worker, said. KHPT officials said that the smart card initiative came from discussion with the sex workers, who identified an incentive of discounts with a health card to be a better alternative than a pure health card. From shuddha at sarai.net Thu Apr 16 11:17:07 2009 From: shuddha at sarai.net (Shuddhabrata Sengupta) Date: Thu, 16 Apr 2009 11:17:07 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] A Modest Appeal to Election Propagandists In-Reply-To: <6b79f1a70904152013v15d69a70oc44cb086fe2d26ca@mail.gmail.com> References: <6b79f1a70904151050i26c49d8dw27120a6520e04ba1@mail.gmail.com> <2F94A86F-611C-4EE0-A9A4-9DD953E858D7@sarai.net> <6b79f1a70904152013v15d69a70oc44cb086fe2d26ca@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: Dear all, Opinions are one thing. Advertisement is another. Atal Bihari Vajpayee's 'letter' is not an opinion, or even an argument. It is an advertisement. It says nothing in substance other than the fact that 'Advani is Good for India'. It does not really tell us why, except for the fact that Vajpayee knows and has worked with Advani and thinks that he is good for India.It does not even spell out an idea of a programme or a vision that Vajpayee, Advani and their party stand for. All it offers us are the usual platitudes that every political party, at every election offers. It is as meaningful, and about as enlightening, as a Pepsi ad trying to tell us how different it is from Coke. This list has always had room for all kinds of opinions and viewpoints. I do not know of any forum that takes its ethic of tolerance as seriously as this list. Which is why people like Pawan Durani and me, who happen to occupy completely antagonistic positions, can still share the same space. I do not recall anyone on this list ever posting or forwarding election propaganda for any political party before Durani's forward of Atal Behari Vajpayee's 'appeal'. So the question of likening this 'ad' to any other posts, which have carried does not arise. We have simply not had to deal with party political propaganda like this before. If someone had peddled Prakash Karat's plug for the CPI (M) or Rahul Gandhi's endorsement for the Congress, my response would not have been one bit different. I would have said exactly what I am saying about Durani's forward of Vajpayee's campaign message. If this becomes acceptable, then next, we will have people peddling the Nano Car, advertising Mouth Freshners and endorsing products of all descriptions including the washing machines, the Congress Party, teflon coated household products, the Nehru-Gandhi Dynasty, potato crisps, the BSP, Microsoft software, sedatives and the CPI(M). Our media space is saturated as it is with advertisements. Please let us try and protect a small space for discussion and reflection from the encroachments of political advertisements and election marketing exercises. I would appeal to everyone to restrain themselves from putting out this kind of endorsement of electoral platforms. There are many other forums for these exercises on the internet, please take all public-relations material there. And spare us, Oddly, advertising pundits often fail to take into account the fact that some campaigns backfire on the products that they are supposed to endorse. regards Shuddha On 16-Apr-09, at 8:43 AM, Pawan Durani wrote: > Dear All, > > What may be serious for 'x' may be non serious for 'y'. Who defines > the limits ? Unless the group is meant to support a particular > ideology leaning towards my weaker hand side. > > This group has been forwarded mails from pathetic writers and > Kashmir expert like 'Aran Dhat Teri Ki Roy ' and we had to bear > that . > > It is understandable that someone may not understand poetry of Mr > Vajpayee as I do not understand Marx either. > > However the time is ripe that communal right wing party like > Communists , who have an election with radical Muslim party like > PDP of Madhani in Kerela should be returned without any seat across > the country. > > The dual standards of pathetic and hazardous party needs to be > exposed . At least we may be saving the future generation of > innocent youths who undergo a brain wash by the followers of > foreign ideology. > > Regards > > pawan > > > > On Thu, Apr 16, 2009 at 12:39 AM, Shuddhabrata Sengupta > wrote: > Dear All, > > I never thought the day would come when the reader list, after all > the nonsense it has had to swallow over the last few years, would > also have to bear with the indignity of being subject to missives > sent on behalf of the person, Atal Behari Vajpayee, who having > hobbled along past his sell by date, continues to peddle the tripe > that goes by the name of his pathetic party. > > This was meant to be a list for serious discussion, and has instead > become a forum for the less than mediocre propaganda, mainly of the > seemingly inexhaustible far right. Not just jibes (of course, > unsubstantiated) against activists, but now, much worse, the > pompous serenade of someone who was not just the worst prime > minister (A B Vajpayee( but also probably the worst poet that this > country has had the misfortune to have been subject to. > > I hope that you will all (irrespective of political affiliation and > loyalties) join me in requesting everyone concerned not to burden > us with this kind of puerile election propaganda in the future. It > is bad enough that I have to take calls from the BJP and the > Congress and the Third, Fourth, Left, Right and my phone an in my > mailbox, it is worse to see this space that we have tried to > nurture for autonomous discussion being slowly crept on by > electioneering. In this election, where no party and no candidate > has any vision worth discussing, the last thing we need is to have > the space between our ears being filled with election spam on the > reader list. > > Please try and keep election garbage out of here. > > thanks > > Shuddha > > > On 15-Apr-09, at 11:20 PM, Pawan Durani wrote: > >> My Dear Fellow Citizens, >> >> The decisive hour for electing the 15th Lok Sabha is upon us. >> Today, our >> nation is confronted by serious challenges of every kind. To >> successfully >> meet these challenges the nation needs a strong government and a >> determined >> leader. A government that by means of good governance, can ensure >> security >> for and rapid development of our country – a promise that has been >> made and >> will be delivered by Shri LK Advani. >> >> I am unable to meet all of you due to poor health. However, I am >> grateful to >> you for the belongingness and affection that you have showered >> upon me. What >> perturbs me much more than my own health is the health of my >> India. The cure >> for that lies in your firm resolve. >> >> Shri Lal Krishna Advani and I have been working together since >> 1952. His >> unblemished character and resolute personality have shown like a >> light torch >> in Indian politics. He is skilful in the art of taking up >> challenges and >> overcoming them. He is a compassionate human being and an >> exceptional leader >> whose best is yet to come. I firmly believe becoming the Prime >> Minister of >> India will bring out the best in him. >> >> I appeal to all of you, especially to the youth of our country, to >> extend >> your wholehearted support, assistance and mandate to the BJP and >> its allied >> parties. Only Advaniji is capable of fulfilling the dream that >> both of us >> have seen together. Adavaniji can provide a new direction to the >> governance >> of this country so that we create an India that is devoid of poverty, >> hunger, despair and injustice. >> >> I invite you to join me in taking a firm resolve to create a strong >> government under the determined leadership of Shree Advani for a >> strong and >> prosperous India. This will only happen when you make the >> candidates of BJP >> and its allies from your region victorious. >> >> Thank you, >> >> Atal Behari Vajpayee >> >> >> >> http://www.lkadvani.in/eng/content/view/865/427/ >> _________________________________________ >> reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. >> Critiques & Collaborations >> To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with >> subscribe in the subject header. >> To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list >> List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> > > Shuddhabrata Sengupta > The Sarai Programme at CSDS > Raqs Media Collective > shuddha at sarai.net > www.sarai.net > www.raqsmediacollective.net > > > Shuddhabrata Sengupta The Sarai Programme at CSDS Raqs Media Collective shuddha at sarai.net www.sarai.net www.raqsmediacollective.net From 2tahamehmood at googlemail.com Thu Apr 16 11:26:47 2009 From: 2tahamehmood at googlemail.com (Taha Mehmood) Date: Thu, 16 Apr 2009 06:56:47 +0100 Subject: [Reader-list] 333 voter ID cards, same address Message-ID: <65be9bf40904152256u2939fd39t1cbbca517bbb5407@mail.gmail.com> Dear All How are we expected to trust that the Government of India will take of our fingerprints and other sensitive biometric information with new digital technology of smart MNIC cards, when even after 18 years of having electronic photo voter identity cards, the Indian Government seems to be fumbling with and having issues with filing relatively simple information like addresses? Please read the story below by- Uma Sudhir, Wednesday April 15, 2009, Hyderabad Do we want to have a scenario when data related to our fingerprints gets mixed up and surfaces with fingerprint data of say 300 other people? Do we really need to spend 25,000 crore rupees on this technology? Can we as a nation actually bear the costs of undertaking yet another exercise in identification when we can actually achieve similar results by merely making sure that past practices are executed properly? Regards Taha http://www.ndtv.com/news/india/aps_poll_theatre_of_the_absurd.php 333 voter ID cards, same address Every election, there are complaints galore of misrepresentation and malpractice. But with electoral photo ID cards, micro-observers and digital cameras in every booth, Andhra Pradesh is hoping elections will be more fair this time round. Three hundred and thirty thee youth voters on a single house address in the Amberpet assembly constituency. And it is not a hostel. There is not even a house on this address. That's the complaint brought in by the election agent of the Samajwadi Party candidate. M Roopender, an election agent for the SP, says: "There is no such house number. If it is a hostel, there should be only one house number. But here the 333 voters have house numbers as 283/1, 283/12, 283/17, etc.'' The Election Commission has said it is not possible to add or delete voters at this stage. AP's Chief Electoral Officer Subba Rao says: "They must have a voter ID card and we will also keep a digital record of the entire process.'' With a reported 90 per cent photo ID cards issued in Andhra Pradesh, micro-observers deployed and digital cameras to shoot the picture of every voter, the authorities are hoping, complaints this time round may be minimised. From jeebesh at sarai.net Thu Apr 16 11:36:52 2009 From: jeebesh at sarai.net (Jeebesh) Date: Thu, 16 Apr 2009 11:36:52 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] What is foreign? Message-ID: dear Pawan and others, Lot of the discussion here is based around an anxiety on something called "foreign". It is at times used like a discursive missile :) Can you please take some time to explain what you mean by foreign and why are you so anxious about it? warmly jeebesh From mitoo at sarai.net Thu Apr 16 11:45:35 2009 From: mitoo at sarai.net (Mitoo Das) Date: Thu, 16 Apr 2009 11:45:35 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] =?windows-1252?q?=5BFwd=3A_Let=92s_make_a_better_De?= =?windows-1252?q?mocracy-_Let=92s_Vote_for_Child_Rights!=5D=5B?= Message-ID: <49E6CD07.5070409@sarai.net> Dear Anupam, The message was send to me by a friend at CRY who had requested me to post it for him. I had forwarded it and guess should not have taken that option. This converted the message into an attachment (which ultimately did not get displayed :-P). Sending it again. Hopefully you can see it now. Best, Mitoo. Let’s make a better Democracy- Let’s Vote for Child Rights! The nation goes to vote from 16th and 40% of Indians - 400 million Indians - will not punch the button. Because they are children. Without the right to choose their political leaders, children cannot directly ensure that: * 70 of every 1000 children born do not die each year *Every 2nd child under 5 is not malnourished * All children are in school and complete formal schooling : the 52% children who are out of school are enrolled and ensured complete formal schooling * All children have access to adequate nutrition and equal opportunities * Children are protected from child labour, abuse and trafficking But YOU can! Child rights can only become central to a country’s political agenda if its people choose to make it priority by ensuring government accountability to actualize the rights of children. Children must be looked on as equal citizens, entitled to equal rights. So when you vote this time, voice the rights of children - think of children, think of the promises we made to them in our Constitution to live a life of dignity that must include food, health, shelter, education, protection and play. This election, CRY - Child Rights and You, seeks to rAaise public awareness on the state of children in India and unite people to stand up and demand what is right. We call out to each and every one of YOU – India’s electorate - to hold representatives, contesting candidates, political parties and policy makers accountable for child rights by demanding specific non-negotiables from the government. Working with India’s children for the past 30 years, we know that we will bring in the day when all children are ensured their right to the childhood they deserve. And with your voice, we firmly believe we will. Child Rights Charter • The definition of a child to be universally applicable to all persons under the age of 18 years, thereby amending discrepancies in policies and acts affecting children. • Increase government expenditure on children. Specifically increase expenditure on education to 10% and health to 7% of GDP. • The government should ensure that all children age 6-18 years, without discrimination, should be in government formal, full-time schools that provide quality education in their own villages/hamlets/in the neighbourhood. . All children below 6 years should be in anganwadis • The RTE Bill (Right of Children to Free and Compulsory Education Bill, 2008) should be redrafted to reflect the true sprit of children’s right to education. Privatization and commercialization of education to be discouraged. • Immediate provision of nutritious mid-day meals in all primary schools and extension of this scheme to include all children including out-of-school children right through the year. Make available Integrated Child Development Services to all children under the age of six years, as per the Supreme Court order of November 2001. • Complete prohibition on all forms of child labour across sectors including agriculture. All working children and child labourers to be brought into the formal school system with special emphasis on girl children who are engaged in household work and child-care. • Revision of the National Policy for Children (1974) to make it more comprehensive and in line with the Constitution and the United Nations Convention on the Rights of the Child. • Formulate and implement a comprehensive rights-based policy on food security for all with extensive legal safeguards, in order that no child goes to bed hungry and no child is born underweight and stay undernourished. The criteria for defining the poverty line and therefore coverage under the Public Distribution System (PDS) for food should be revised. Universalize PDS. • Enactment and implementation of effective legislation for preventing and prohibiting sexual abuse of children and trafficking of children • Education to be inclusive so that children with disabilities are also ensured equal opportunities to be integrated into mainstream society • For children living in conflict-affected areas, ensure children’s fundamental rights, including the right to protection, to education and to live with their family. The demands above can be effectively realised only when larger issues, closely linked to children’s rights, are ensured. Some of these are: • Migration and displacement lead to disruption in children’s development, access to education and health facilities making them vulnerable to exploitation and abuse. To prevent this it is critical to * Prevent lop sided development that induces displacement of the marginalized communities. *Alter Special Economic Zone Act 2005, preventing misappropriation of land, ensuring that the marginalized are not exploited. Put in place and implement an effective rehabilitation and resettlement policy * Reformulate the Jawaharlal Nehru National Urban Renewal Mission (JNNURM) where the government shoulders its responsibility, rather than promoting Public-Private partnerships, in order to effectively uphold the housing rights of urban poor * Implement land reform policies that will prevent migration and enable children to develop within their communities and geography. * Withdraw the Coastal Management Zone (CMZ) Notification 2006 and Implement Coastal Regulation Zone (CRZ) 1991 as an Act so as to protect natural resources and the customary rights of coastal communities. *Implement Forest Dwellers (Recognition of Forest Rights) Act 2006 which allows tribal communities greater control over forest resources. * Repeal Petroleum, Chemical and Petrochemical Investment Region (PCPIR) Act 2003 which commodifies common property resources. • Ensure living and equal wages for all adults to enable them to protect their children’s rights. • Revision of the agriculture policy to protect small and marginal farmers • Social security for all including unorganized workers be guaranteed and implemented to safeguard their rights. • Ensure the right to housing for families so that every child has the right to safe space. • Ensure that communalism be countered in order to prevent atrocities against minorities and ensure the basic rights for all. Establish secular practices in society and polity. • Ensure that basic human rights are protected during counter-terrorism operations. The Indian government to stop supporting war efforts both within and outside its boundaries. Vote for someone: 1. Who will work to ensure rights of all children, their health, education, and over all development 2. Who will work for enhancing social security, employment opportunities, peace and prosperity of all 3. Who will not create divisiveness or spread hatred, communalism and violence in society VOTE FOR TODAY VOTE FOR TOMORROW......CRY -CHILD RIGHTS AND YOU WWW.CRY.ORG From kauladityaraj at gmail.com Thu Apr 16 12:16:09 2009 From: kauladityaraj at gmail.com (Aditya Raj Kaul) Date: Thu, 16 Apr 2009 12:16:09 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Hurriyat says YES to Elections in Kashmir - No Poll Boycott Message-ID: <6353c690904152346o431ed4a4t6fc0dde718eaf1d2@mail.gmail.com> Moderate Hurriyat not for election boycott April 16th, 2009 - 1:17 pm ICT by IANS [image: Tell a Friend]- Srinagar, April 16 (IANS) In a significant development, the moderate Hurriyat group led by Mirwaiz Umer Farooq Thursday decided not to call for a boycott of parliamentary elections in Jammu and Kashmir. After three days of discussions here, the group announced that the elections were no alternative to “the right to self-determination” but did not specifically ask Kashmiris to keep away from the polls. “Elections were not an alternative for the right to self-determination and the conglomerate considered elections in Kashmir a non-issue,” it said in a statement. Though the statement said the Hurriyat arrived at a decision not to press for a boycott, reports said its constituents were divided over the issue since its boycott appeal was overlooked by the people during the December 2008 assembly elections. The hardline Hurriyat group headed by Syed Ali Geelani and the United Jehad Council (UJC) of the armed separatist groups have already called for an election boycott in Jammu and Kashmir. Jammu and Kashmir elects six members to the Lok Sabha including three from the Kashmir Valley. From sub_sengupta at yahoo.co.in Thu Apr 16 12:24:24 2009 From: sub_sengupta at yahoo.co.in (subhrodip sengupta) Date: Thu, 16 Apr 2009 12:24:24 +0530 (IST) Subject: [Reader-list] EVERY ONE IS FOOLED 1CE n a sorry Message-ID: <159273.62848.qm@web94707.mail.in2.yahoo.com> He who is ignorantly fooled repeatedly is called a fool. An afterthought regards the sikh resistance by army and anti sikh riots I do not pretend by giving criminals who have still not purged themselves a 2nd chance not 2 mean varun is one, just a rhetoric what i'll point out is that so far about 2 years ago certain sikh groups were a part of nda. I hope they were aware of the gruesome history as they were neither based in the Us nor detached 4rm rss idealogy, as they seem intelligent individuals. Now suddenly they remember the riots and secret crimes committed by army I repeat every time we have to resort to a crime we justify use of it and further endanger by creating perverts, I feel ashamed of staying with such people but obviously use of rape has more to do with violation of dignity and private property rather than genetic mutation obviously which can be only by killing and not raping women either in cells or later in riots. moreover 2 are different events and were undertaken under different regimes, not obviously under current leadership, bjp wasnt. After this I urge my intelligent readers to think- 1. Those parties who make this am agenda are thus politically void, and rouges who make fun of serious issues like rape useless to invoke sec 420 and i am against unnecessary violence. Rioters if they were traitors so long electoral dustbin befits them. 2. Rather than raging public 4 vote banks which would be fascist or issuing strong statements forcing people to think advocate of any right are good even of religion, but you must clarify defend your ram rajya. Lend support to a criminal you are also one purge your own house and no evil will enter it! When fire hits forests animals leave it. A strong leader must lead own people even if weak. Rss and Bjp must show compulsary standards of civil ness. Why did we believe in ahimsa remember of our dominance in trade. Neh, as one grows enemies also increase. I know not advani in person as if bothered all i can read is intent and impact. Add more friends to your messenger and enjoy! Go to http://messenger.yahoo.com/invite/ From sub_sengupta at yahoo.co.in Thu Apr 16 12:25:46 2009 From: sub_sengupta at yahoo.co.in (subhrodip sengupta) Date: Thu, 16 Apr 2009 12:25:46 +0530 (IST) Subject: [Reader-list] EVERY ONE IS FOOLED 1CE n a sorry Message-ID: <35548.54471.qm@web94715.mail.in2.yahoo.com> He who is ignorantly fooled repeatedly is called a fool. An afterthought regards the sikh resistance by army and anti sikh riots I do not pretend by giving criminals who have still not purged themselves a 2nd chance not 2 mean varun is one, just a rhetoric what i'll point out is that so far about 2 years ago certain sikh groups were a part of nda. I hope they were aware of the gruesome history as they were neither based in the Us nor detached 4rm rss idealogy, as they seem intelligent individuals. Now suddenly they remember the riots and secret crimes committed by army I repeat every time we have to resort to a crime we justify use of it and further endanger by creating perverts, I feel ashamed of staying with such people but obviously use of rape has more to do with violation of dignity and private property rather than genetic mutation obviously which can be only by killing and not raping women either in cells or later in riots. moreover 2 are different events and were undertaken under different regimes, not obviously under current leadership, bjp wasnt. After this I urge my intelligent readers to think- 1. Those parties who make this am agenda are thus politically void, and rouges who make fun of serious issues like rape useless to invoke sec 420 and i am against unnecessary violence. Rioters if they were traitors so long electoral dustbin befits them. 2. Rather than raging public 4 vote banks which would be fascist or issuing strong statements forcing people to think advocate of any right are good even of religion, but you must clarify defend your ram rajya. Lend support to a criminal you are also one purge your own house and no evil will enter it! When fire hits forests animals leave it. A strong leader must lead own people even if weak. Rss and Bjp must show compulsary standards of civil ness. Why did we believe in ahimsa remember of our dominance in trade. Neh, as one grows enemies also increase. I know not advani in person as if bothered all i can read is intent and impact. Connect with friends all over the world. Get Yahoo! India Messenger at http://in.messenger.yahoo.com/?wm=n/ From sub_sengupta at yahoo.co.in Thu Apr 16 12:25:37 2009 From: sub_sengupta at yahoo.co.in (subhrodip sengupta) Date: Thu, 16 Apr 2009 12:25:37 +0530 (IST) Subject: [Reader-list] EVERY ONE IS FOOLED 1CE n a sorry Message-ID: <507940.24862.qm@web94713.mail.in2.yahoo.com> He who is ignorantly fooled repeatedly is called a fool. An afterthought regards the sikh resistance by army and anti sikh riots I do not pretend by giving criminals who have still not purged themselves a 2nd chance not 2 mean varun is one, just a rhetoric what i'll point out is that so far about 2 years ago certain sikh groups were a part of nda. I hope they were aware of the gruesome history as they were neither based in the Us nor detached 4rm rss idealogy, as they seem intelligent individuals. Now suddenly they remember the riots and secret crimes committed by army I repeat every time we have to resort to a crime we justify use of it and further endanger by creating perverts, I feel ashamed of staying with such people but obviously use of rape has more to do with violation of dignity and private property rather than genetic mutation obviously which can be only by killing and not raping women either in cells or later in riots. moreover 2 are different events and were undertaken under different regimes, not obviously under current leadership, bjp wasnt. After this I urge my intelligent readers to think- 1. Those parties who make this am agenda are thus politically void, and rouges who make fun of serious issues like rape useless to invoke sec 420 and i am against unnecessary violence. Rioters if they were traitors so long electoral dustbin befits them. 2. Rather than raging public 4 vote banks which would be fascist or issuing strong statements forcing people to think advocate of any right are good even of religion, but you must clarify defend your ram rajya. Lend support to a criminal you are also one purge your own house and no evil will enter it! When fire hits forests animals leave it. A strong leader must lead own people even if weak. Rss and Bjp must show compulsary standards of civil ness. Why did we believe in ahimsa remember of our dominance in trade. Neh, as one grows enemies also increase. I know not advani in person as if bothered all i can read is intent and impact. Add more friends to your messenger and enjoy! Go to http://messenger.yahoo.com/invite/ From rajen882uppinangadi at gmail.com Thu Apr 16 12:31:09 2009 From: rajen882uppinangadi at gmail.com (Rajen Uppinangadi) Date: Thu, 16 Apr 2009 12:31:09 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Appeal for the vote and vote bank politics.! Message-ID: <61164a90904160001p55f4b25au5a4b452f7b107361@mail.gmail.com> Dear Sir, As Shuddha is pure, I expected that the list moderated by you would not be impure by partisan thoughts, but with regret I have to point out that a few days back, one post, a write up as to why one should vote for Congress and why one should not encourage BJP by voting was on the list, to my pleasent surprise, as I responded to it by pointing out that all political parties are living on community votes, votes of deifferent castes, faiths and regions as those communities were created by congress, which was the work of Congress. If one observes the post independent India and its elections, none can miss the maturity of voter from elections to elections, awareness of the voter of the political reality of the nation and also the education standards of the voter across India. In 50s if one saw the average voter as gareeb illiterate, the 70s saw the poor voter hooked by garibi hatao mantra but voter had hopes that it would work for him, as he was now school drop out. The next generation of voters post emergency understood the autocratic rule better, rights and duties came into national consciousness, rights group started to register their presence, and lastly, ballot showed how powerful the punishment can be for a dictator. But at the same time, when the chance given for good governance was frittered away, the same voters chose the least of the evils, Indira, again instead of the fools like Rajnarain Present day generation is not only college drop outs but also skilled generation in earning skills, aiming for better life in every walk of life, as IT, BT, ITES, hospitality and other works as skills are foremost along with education and degrees. This generation therefore has voted with considerable thoughts to selection of the candidate inspite of blacksheep in media propagating for the old hat,voter has chosen wisely, that is the reason today Congress and BJP have a vote share of nearly 34 percent in the nation. Funnily, regional satraps and communist combine with less than 10 percent vote share can dictate terms in the coalition era to these big two national parties with presence all over India.? That. BJP let down its core voters in governance with dropping of its core ideals like ram Mandir, art.370 and uniform civil code is the tragedy that has struck Advani as it was he who started these ideas and propagated them and naturally, I see him as sindhi business man who harvested profit and is now more worried about future profits than the capital.! If only BJP had facilitated the mandir with goodwill of all involved, even if the NDA fell from power, it would have come back on its own, ofcourse worthy of debate. Whereas Congress though was in coalition, its big brother attitude and its arrogance is evident even now , after all its allies let it go alone, high and dry. BJP lost its allies before elections, they were regional allies, both lost badly, the DMK and TDP. But are in power inspite of their reduced number of MPs, again debatable issue.Congress took all aboard without any issues but for power, even compromising the cases in Courts of the murderer, Shibu Soren, communal Laallu Yadav of yadav clan, communal Mulayam yadav who is more favourable to fanatics of any faith for his growth, with money bag Amar Singh. Left, who had supported Congress with principled stand, had to part ways for the N-deal, and honest prime minister Man Mohan Singh is thoroghly exposed in the process of deal as the dishonest way in which he secured votes for this deal, shameless eunuch that he is, honestly dishonest, many may say. But the deal is disaster for India as now India may have to go with its army to places where we never thought would be necessary to "keep our friendship". These Congressmen have never sacrificed anything in free India except their morals, as Sonia taught them how to loot the money right under the nose of supreme court as she got the funds defrozen from London for her uncle Q. Having said all this, even I feel Advani is not right for PM post, as he seems to be busines man for profits rather than a good governor of rule of laws. If not as home minister, he should have put Sonia behind bars,Quatrocchi extrdited from malaysia,Jagadeesh tytler and sajan Kumar should have faced criminal proceedings, and those lawyers who delayed prosecution of bofors accused should have been censored.Rule of laws were diluted by Advani like Sonia for his post. I hope new generation of indians will elect those irrespective of the parties they are in, for good governance. Regards. Rajen. From pawan.durani at gmail.com Thu Apr 16 13:33:10 2009 From: pawan.durani at gmail.com (Pawan Durani) Date: Thu, 16 Apr 2009 13:33:10 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Hurriyat says YES to Elections in Kashmir - No Poll Boycott In-Reply-To: <6353c690904152346o431ed4a4t6fc0dde718eaf1d2@mail.gmail.com> References: <6353c690904152346o431ed4a4t6fc0dde718eaf1d2@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <6b79f1a70904160103p1a007e57nc7665242463e4d4f@mail.gmail.com> What is this fashion of calling terrorists as 'Moderate' . It is same as some use 'Moderate ' term for even Taliban. It makes no sense to use 'Moderate' term with either Hurriyat or its cousins Taliban. Both are extreme radicals. Pawan On Thu, Apr 16, 2009 at 12:16 PM, Aditya Raj Kaul wrote: > Moderate Hurriyat not for election boycott April 16th, 2009 - 1:17 pm ICT > by > IANS [image: Tell a > Friend]- > > Srinagar, April 16 (IANS) In a significant development, the moderate > Hurriyat group led by Mirwaiz Umer Farooq Thursday decided not to call for > a > boycott of parliamentary elections in Jammu and Kashmir. > After three days of discussions here, the group announced that the > elections > were no alternative to “the right to self-determination” but did not > specifically ask Kashmiris to keep away from the polls. > > “Elections were not an alternative for the right to self-determination and > the conglomerate considered elections in Kashmir a non-issue,” it said in a > statement. > > Though the statement said the Hurriyat arrived at a decision not to press > for a boycott, reports said its constituents were divided over the issue > since its boycott appeal was overlooked by the people during the December > 2008 assembly elections. > > The hardline Hurriyat group headed by Syed Ali Geelani and the United Jehad > Council (UJC) of the armed separatist groups have already called for an > election boycott in Jammu and Kashmir. > > Jammu and Kashmir elects six members to the Lok Sabha including three from > the Kashmir Valley. > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > subscribe in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> From pawan.durani at gmail.com Thu Apr 16 13:38:27 2009 From: pawan.durani at gmail.com (Pawan Durani) Date: Thu, 16 Apr 2009 13:38:27 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Secularism vs. Pseudo Secularism [ sickularism ] Message-ID: <6b79f1a70904160108v2ec0cee9rd384424e9c36cfe4@mail.gmail.com> *Equating Lord Ram and Babar** * *“*Closely linked to the politics of minorityism, indeed providing a justification, is the distortion and perversion that has taken place in the concept of secularism. Increasingly, it is being interpreted and practiced in terms that negate the essential cultural and civilisational personality of India. In the context of the Ayodhya movement, Lord Ram and Babur were sought to be equated in the name of secularism, disdainfully ignoring the sentiments of crores of Hindus. ‘Can you prove that Ram was born exactly at this site?’ asked Communist intellectuals disparagingly, something they would never do in the case of a dispute concerning a non-Hindu community. In an interview to a Hindi journal *Vama *in 1987, I had said that for any section of Indian Muslims to identify themselves with Babur ‘is like the Christians of Delhi picking up a quarrel over the replacement of a statue of George V with that of Mahatma Gandhi on the ground that George V was a Christian. Now, Gandhiji may have been a Hindu by faith, but he belongs to this country and George V does not. Similarly, Ram belongs to this country whether you call him a mythical hero or a historical personage. Even on the issue of history and culture, I would plead with the Muslim leadership of this country that if the Muslims in Indonesia can feel proud about Ram and * Ramayana*, why cannot the Indian Muslims?’* ”* *Bhakti Sangeet is ‘anti-secular’!* *“*I have had many experiences in my political life showing how selfstyled defenders of secularism interpret it in an irreligious or anti-religious manner—of course, their secularism is almost always anti-Hindu, and never against any other faith. I recall an instance from 1970, when I was first elected to Parliament as a member of the Rajya Sabha. Every ministry in the Government of India has a consultative committee attached to it, comprising MPs from both Houses. These Committees discuss matters pertaining to the ministry, make recommendations, but do not take any decisions. A new MP is offered the option of working in a committee of his or her choice. As a journalist by profession, I opted for the Ministry of Information & Broadcasting. At the very first meeting of the committee that I attended, I had to participate in a discussion which I felt was queer. A Congress member had raised a strong objection to the Bhakti Sangeet programme, featuring devotional songs, on AIR every morning. The ambience generated by such programmes is intensely Hindu, he argued, and ‘a secular state like ours should not permit this’. The member’s arguments did not carry conviction with the committee, and so, in that forum he did not pursue the matter further. I later gathered that some time earlier this MP had taken a delegation to Rashtrapati Bhavan to plead the same issue with our then President Dr S. Radhakrishnan. After listening to their plaint patiently, the Rashtrapati commented: ‘Let me tell you, ladies and gentlemen, that I generally do not listen to All India Radio except in the morning hours. The only programme I do like to hear is Bhakti Sangeet!’ In his writings and speeches, Dr. Radhakrishnan strongly stressed that a secular state simply means a state which views all religions with equal respect, and treats all citizens equally without any discrimination. However, he underscored that a secular state is not an irreligious state. When Mahatma Gandhi spoke of ‘Ram Rajya’ or when Gurudev Rabindranath Tagore invoked the prayer for ‘*Eka Dharmarajya hable a Bharate’ *(Let there be one Dharma Rajya, a just and moral order, in India), were they proposing a theocratic or anti-secular state? What both Gandhiji and Tagore meant was that without Dharmic underpinnings—meaning, thereby, spiritual and ethical guidance—the Indian State and society cannot attain their desired goals.*”** * *‘No coconut-breaking, no lamp-lighting; we are a secular state.’* *“*When Rajiv Gandhi became Prime Minister, he invited me, as President of the BJP, to serve as a member of the National Integration Council. At one of its meetings held in September 1986, there was a heated discussion on what is meant by secularism in India. I had asked fellow members: ‘Is it negation of secularism if a new Indian ship is launched by breaking a coconut against its keel? Or should it be done by opening a champagne bottle? How should a VIP formally inaugurate an exhibition—by lighting a lamp or by merely cutting a tape with a pair of scissors?’ Many members concurred with me that there was nothing wrong about breaking a coconut or lighting a lamp at functions. However, C. Rajeshwar Rao, an eminent leader of the CPI, reacted sharply to my views, saying: ‘No coconuts, no lamps, we are a secular state.’I could not resist joining issue with him. A Marxist with his conviction that religion is the opium of the masses would understandably be allergic to customs and traditions which have even a remote association to religion. But I felt that the concept of secularism, which India’s Constitution makers had in mind, had nothing in common with this Marxist approach. It is not secularism, but pseudo-secularism. In fact, I insisted that, unlike in communism which banished religion even from private life, Indian secularism has its roots in religion—in the Hindu view that all roads lead to God, as enunciated in the Vedic dictum ‘*Ekam Sat Vipraha Bahudha Vadanti*’ (Truth is One; the wise interpret it differently). I reminded Rao and others at the meeting about what Gandhiji had said: ‘Politics bereft of religion is absolute dirt, ever to be shunned.’ One of the most comprehensive studies of Indian secularism has been done by Donald Eugene Smith in his book *India: As a Secular State*. It succinctly sums the differences between Gandhiji and Nehru on the issue of secularism, and describes how this divergence sometimes created problems for the government in the early years of Independence. Sardar Patel, Dr Rajendra Prasad, C. Rajgopalachari (Rajaji) and Dr K.M. Munshi belonged to the Gandhian school. I have explained this in detail in narrating the story of the restoration of the Somnath Temple in Gujarat. What is deeply disconcerting, however, is that the Congress, under its present leadership, has become far more insensitive to the proud symbols of our nationalism than was the case at the time of Nehru or Indira Gandhi. The most shocking example of this is how the Congress party indirectly supported a recent vicious campaign against *Vande Mataram *by Muslim fanatics and Marxists, who alleged that India’s national song has communal overtones. The culture of any ancient nation is bound to be composite. But in our country, emphasis on the composite character of Indian culture is generally an attempt to disown its essentially Hindu content. Even though an outsider, Donald Eugene Smith has taken due note of this, and perceptively observed that, despite the composite nature of Indian culture, Hinduism remains by far the most powerful and pervasive element in that culture. Those who lay great stress on the composite nature of Indian culture frequently minimise this basic fact. Hinduism has indeed provided the essential genius of Indian culture. The *Ramayana *and *Mahabharata *may evoke feelings of piety and religious reverence in the Hindus. But do they belong only to Hindus? As invaluable treasures of India’s cultural heritage, shouldn’t every Indian — Hindu, Muslim or Christian — ought to feel proud of them? Breaking a coconut or lighting a lamp may be part of a religious ritual with Hindus but over a period of time these have become distinctive and graceful Indian customs. Only someone who bears a deep-rooted allergy to religion can object to these practices. A secularism that entails hostility to anything that has a Hindu tinge about it would not be acceptable to India. Indeed, so ingrained is the Indian concept of secularism in our national culture that it did not even occur to the architects of our Constitution that they should specially mention it as one of its preambulary principles. It is only during the anti-democratic Emergency rule (1975–77) imposed by Indira Gandhi that secularism found a place in the Constitution through the route of amendment without any discussion in Parliament. How could there have been any debate when almost all the main Opposition leaders were imprisoned and the press was gagged?*”* *Chaplain’s prayer at the House of Commons* *“*I recall visiting London in 1990 as a member of a parliamentary delegation led by the then Lok Sabha Speaker Rabi Ray. The Speaker of the House of Commons had invited our delegation for dinner at his residence. We all turned up on time. Our host and some select members of the House of Commons were all there. Even after we were seated at the table, the service would not start. ‘Are we waiting for someone?’, I asked the Labour Party MP sitting beside me. His name was Greville Janner, and he replied: ‘Yes, the Chaplain of the House is still to arrive. Dinner will commence only after he comes and conducts the prayers.’ I turned to my Indian colleague sitting on the other side, a senior Marxist leader, and asked: ‘If something of this kind were to happen in India, what would you do? Walk out?’ Incidentally, when the House Chaplain finally arrived, and prayers were being said, Janner looked at me and, tongue-in-cheek, observed: ‘Mr. Advani, you are a Hindu, and I am a Jew; I hope he is including us also in his prayers.’ Ever since this dinner meeting, Janner and I have been close friends. He visits India quite frequently, and on no occasion have we failed to meet. I too meet up with him on my trips to London. He has been trying to foster good relations between different religions, both in Britain and abroad.*”* ** *“*I urge all the right-minded people in the country, including silent but concerned Congressmen, to raise their voice against the politics of minorityism. Since India is not a theocratic state, the religious rights and the identities of the various faith-based communities that constitute the Great Indian Family must indeed be protected. But notions of ‘majority’ and ‘minority’ should have no place in the politics and statecraft of our nation much less be manipulated for vote-bank considerations. This divisive mindset jeopardises India as one united, integral and harmonious nation. The Congress party is trying to divide the nation by continuously harping on ‘minority protection’ in the same way that the British rulers did for their own ulterior motives.* ”* ** *Source : lkadvani.in* From kauladityaraj at gmail.com Thu Apr 16 13:42:22 2009 From: kauladityaraj at gmail.com (Aditya Raj Kaul) Date: Thu, 16 Apr 2009 13:42:22 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] A Modest Appeal to Election Propagandists In-Reply-To: References: <6b79f1a70904151050i26c49d8dw27120a6520e04ba1@mail.gmail.com> <2F94A86F-611C-4EE0-A9A4-9DD953E858D7@sarai.net> <6b79f1a70904152013v15d69a70oc44cb086fe2d26ca@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <6353c690904160112x7fe5e537t255672250e5b4b9a@mail.gmail.com> Fortunately enough Reader's List at Sarai does not work according to the wishes of one Shuddhabrata Sengupta. After many attacks, it has survived and still holds to be a free flowing interactive forum. Wonder what mess it would have been if 'jhollahwallahs' had their acts & wishes implemented here on this forum too? We would have been 'in exile' yet again from this forum too. Can you beat that ? God Bless!! On Thu, Apr 16, 2009 at 11:17 AM, Shuddhabrata Sengupta wrote: > Dear all, > > Opinions are one thing. Advertisement is another. Atal Bihari > Vajpayee's 'letter' is not an opinion, or even an argument. It is an > advertisement. It says nothing in substance other than the fact that > 'Advani is Good for India'. It does not really tell us why, except > for the fact that Vajpayee knows and has worked with Advani and > thinks that he is good for India.It does not even spell out an idea > of a programme or a vision that Vajpayee, Advani and their party > stand for. All it offers us are the usual platitudes that every > political party, at every election offers. It is as meaningful, and > about as enlightening, as a Pepsi ad trying to tell us how different > it is from Coke. > > This list has always had room for all kinds of opinions and > viewpoints. I do not know of any forum that takes its ethic of > tolerance as seriously as this list. Which is why people like Pawan > Durani and me, who happen to occupy completely antagonistic > positions, can still share the same space. > > I do not recall anyone on this list ever posting or forwarding > election propaganda for any political party before Durani's forward > of Atal Behari Vajpayee's 'appeal'. So the question of likening this > 'ad' to any other posts, which have carried does not arise. We have > simply not had to deal with party political propaganda like this before. > > If someone had peddled Prakash Karat's plug for the CPI (M) or Rahul > Gandhi's endorsement for the Congress, my response would not have > been one bit different. I would have said exactly what I am saying > about Durani's forward of Vajpayee's campaign message. > > If this becomes acceptable, then next, we will have people peddling > the Nano Car, advertising Mouth Freshners and endorsing products of > all descriptions including the washing machines, the Congress Party, > teflon coated household products, the Nehru-Gandhi Dynasty, potato > crisps, the BSP, Microsoft software, sedatives and the CPI(M). > > Our media space is saturated as it is with advertisements. Please let > us try and protect a small space for discussion and reflection from > the encroachments of political advertisements and election marketing > exercises. I would appeal to everyone to restrain themselves from > putting out this kind of endorsement of electoral platforms. There > are many other forums for these exercises on the internet, please > take all public-relations material there. And spare us, > > Oddly, advertising pundits often fail to take into account the fact > that some campaigns backfire on the products that they are supposed > to endorse. > > regards > > Shuddha > > > On 16-Apr-09, at 8:43 AM, Pawan Durani wrote: > > > Dear All, > > > > What may be serious for 'x' may be non serious for 'y'. Who defines > > the limits ? Unless the group is meant to support a particular > > ideology leaning towards my weaker hand side. > > > > This group has been forwarded mails from pathetic writers and > > Kashmir expert like 'Aran Dhat Teri Ki Roy ' and we had to bear > > that . > > > > It is understandable that someone may not understand poetry of Mr > > Vajpayee as I do not understand Marx either. > > > > However the time is ripe that communal right wing party like > > Communists , who have an election with radical Muslim party like > > PDP of Madhani in Kerela should be returned without any seat across > > the country. > > > > The dual standards of pathetic and hazardous party needs to be > > exposed . At least we may be saving the future generation of > > innocent youths who undergo a brain wash by the followers of > > foreign ideology. > > > > Regards > > > > pawan > > > > > > > > On Thu, Apr 16, 2009 at 12:39 AM, Shuddhabrata Sengupta > > wrote: > > Dear All, > > > > I never thought the day would come when the reader list, after all > > the nonsense it has had to swallow over the last few years, would > > also have to bear with the indignity of being subject to missives > > sent on behalf of the person, Atal Behari Vajpayee, who having > > hobbled along past his sell by date, continues to peddle the tripe > > that goes by the name of his pathetic party. > > > > This was meant to be a list for serious discussion, and has instead > > become a forum for the less than mediocre propaganda, mainly of the > > seemingly inexhaustible far right. Not just jibes (of course, > > unsubstantiated) against activists, but now, much worse, the > > pompous serenade of someone who was not just the worst prime > > minister (A B Vajpayee( but also probably the worst poet that this > > country has had the misfortune to have been subject to. > > > > I hope that you will all (irrespective of political affiliation and > > loyalties) join me in requesting everyone concerned not to burden > > us with this kind of puerile election propaganda in the future. It > > is bad enough that I have to take calls from the BJP and the > > Congress and the Third, Fourth, Left, Right and my phone an in my > > mailbox, it is worse to see this space that we have tried to > > nurture for autonomous discussion being slowly crept on by > > electioneering. In this election, where no party and no candidate > > has any vision worth discussing, the last thing we need is to have > > the space between our ears being filled with election spam on the > > reader list. > > > > Please try and keep election garbage out of here. > > > > thanks > > > > Shuddha > > > > > > On 15-Apr-09, at 11:20 PM, Pawan Durani wrote: > > > >> My Dear Fellow Citizens, > >> > >> The decisive hour for electing the 15th Lok Sabha is upon us. > >> Today, our > >> nation is confronted by serious challenges of every kind. To > >> successfully > >> meet these challenges the nation needs a strong government and a > >> determined > >> leader. A government that by means of good governance, can ensure > >> security > >> for and rapid development of our country – a promise that has been > >> made and > >> will be delivered by Shri LK Advani. > >> > >> I am unable to meet all of you due to poor health. However, I am > >> grateful to > >> you for the belongingness and affection that you have showered > >> upon me. What > >> perturbs me much more than my own health is the health of my > >> India. The cure > >> for that lies in your firm resolve. > >> > >> Shri Lal Krishna Advani and I have been working together since > >> 1952. His > >> unblemished character and resolute personality have shown like a > >> light torch > >> in Indian politics. He is skilful in the art of taking up > >> challenges and > >> overcoming them. He is a compassionate human being and an > >> exceptional leader > >> whose best is yet to come. I firmly believe becoming the Prime > >> Minister of > >> India will bring out the best in him. > >> > >> I appeal to all of you, especially to the youth of our country, to > >> extend > >> your wholehearted support, assistance and mandate to the BJP and > >> its allied > >> parties. Only Advaniji is capable of fulfilling the dream that > >> both of us > >> have seen together. Adavaniji can provide a new direction to the > >> governance > >> of this country so that we create an India that is devoid of poverty, > >> hunger, despair and injustice. > >> > >> I invite you to join me in taking a firm resolve to create a strong > >> government under the determined leadership of Shree Advani for a > >> strong and > >> prosperous India. This will only happen when you make the > >> candidates of BJP > >> and its allies from your region victorious. > >> > >> Thank you, > >> > >> Atal Behari Vajpayee > >> > >> > >> > >> http://www.lkadvani.in/eng/content/view/865/427/ > >> _________________________________________ > >> reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > >> Critiques & Collaborations > >> To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > >> subscribe in the subject header. > >> To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > >> List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> > > > > Shuddhabrata Sengupta > > The Sarai Programme at CSDS > > Raqs Media Collective > > shuddha at sarai.net > > www.sarai.net > > www.raqsmediacollective.net > > > > > > > > Shuddhabrata Sengupta > The Sarai Programme at CSDS > Raqs Media Collective > shuddha at sarai.net > www.sarai.net > www.raqsmediacollective.net > > > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > subscribe in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> > -- Aditya Raj Kaul From sub_sengupta at yahoo.co.in Thu Apr 16 13:38:20 2009 From: sub_sengupta at yahoo.co.in (subhrodip sengupta) Date: Thu, 16 Apr 2009 13:38:20 +0530 (IST) Subject: [Reader-list] EVERY ONE IS FOOLED 1CE n a sorry In-Reply-To: <35548.54471.qm@web94715.mail.in2.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <886082.16048.qm@web94707.mail.in2.yahoo.com> One last comment gali ke kutte kabhi apne hi gudiya ko nahi kaatte yeh toh bahar ke paaltu gunde hotein hain. . . To say yeh adharm ka phal hain in some cases has been like takin dushshashans stance i remember the aks dialouge jab bhi tumhe koi draupadi ya sita ki. . . . . God and devil r frnds? This is a reply to some highly provocative communications on list and youtube bye the way some youtube videos accuse Rahul gandhi had raped some girl in same state he was visiting and entire family is missin. Can some competent people clarify if this is a mere joke? Youtube is dangerous then i suppose. subhrodip sengupta wrote: > He who is ignorantly fooled repeatedly is called a fool. An afterthought regards the sikh resistance by army and anti sikh riots I do not pretend by giving criminals who have still not purged themselves a 2nd chance not 2 mean varun is one, just a rhetoric what i'll point out is that so far about 2 years ago certain sikh groups were a part of nda. I hope they were aware of the gruesome history as they were neither based in the Us nor detached 4rm rss idealogy, as they seem intelligent individuals. Now suddenly they remember the riots and secret crimes committed by army I repeat every time we have to resort to a crime we justify use of it and further endanger by creating perverts, I feel ashamed of staying with such people but obviously use of rape has more to do with violation of dignity and private property rather than genetic mutation obviously which can be only by killing and not raping women either in cells or later in riots. moreover 2 are > different events and were undertaken under different regimes, not obviously under current leadership, bjp wasnt. After this I urge my intelligent readers to think- 1. Those parties who make this am agenda are thus politically void, and rouges who make fun of serious issues like rape useless to invoke sec 420 and i am against unnecessary violence. Rioters if they were traitors so long electoral dustbin befits them. > 2. Rather than raging public 4 vote banks which would be fascist or issuing strong statements forcing people to think advocate of any right are good even of religion, but you must clarify defend your ram rajya. Lend support to a criminal you are also one purge your own house and no evil will enter it! When fire hits forests animals leave it. A strong leader must lead own people even if weak. Rss and Bjp must show compulsary standards of civil ness. Why did we believe in ahimsa remember of our dominance in trade. Neh, as one grows enemies also increase. I know not advani in person as if bothered all i can read is intent and impact. > Connect with friends all over the world. Get Yahoo! India Messenger at http://in.messenger.yahoo.com/?wm=n/ > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with subscribe in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> Add more friends to your messenger and enjoy! Go to http://messenger.yahoo.com/invite/ From asitredsalute at gmail.com Thu Apr 16 13:59:12 2009 From: asitredsalute at gmail.com (Asit asitreds) Date: Thu, 16 Apr 2009 13:59:12 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Secularism vs. Pseudo Secularism [ sickularism ] In-Reply-To: <6b79f1a70904160108v2ec0cee9rd384424e9c36cfe4@mail.gmail.com> References: <6b79f1a70904160108v2ec0cee9rd384424e9c36cfe4@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: both majority and minority communalism are dangerous both are two sides of the same coin using religion for elctoral gains both have to be opposed secularism means the state will not have an y religion and there has to be a complete separation of religion and politcs asit On Thu, Apr 16, 2009 at 1:38 PM, Pawan Durani wrote: > *Equating Lord Ram and Babar** > * > > *“*Closely linked to the politics of minorityism, indeed providing a > justification, is the distortion and perversion that has taken place in the > concept of secularism. Increasingly, it is being interpreted and practiced > in terms that negate the essential cultural and civilisational personality > of India. In the context of the Ayodhya movement, Lord Ram and Babur were > sought to be equated in the name of secularism, disdainfully ignoring the > sentiments of crores of Hindus. ‘Can you prove that Ram was born exactly at > this site?’ asked Communist intellectuals disparagingly, something they > would never do in the case of a dispute concerning a non-Hindu community. > > In an interview to a Hindi journal *Vama *in 1987, I had said that for any > section of Indian Muslims to identify themselves with Babur ‘is like the > Christians of Delhi picking up a quarrel over the replacement of a statue > of > George V with that of Mahatma Gandhi on the ground that George V was a > Christian. Now, Gandhiji may have been a Hindu by faith, but he belongs to > this country and George V does not. Similarly, Ram belongs to this country > whether you call him a mythical hero or a historical personage. Even on the > issue of history and culture, I would plead with the Muslim leadership of > this country that if the Muslims in Indonesia can feel proud about Ram and > * > Ramayana*, why cannot the Indian Muslims?’* ”* > > *Bhakti Sangeet is ‘anti-secular’!* > > *“*I have had many experiences in my political life showing how selfstyled > defenders of secularism interpret it in an irreligious or anti-religious > manner—of course, their secularism is almost always anti-Hindu, and never > against any other faith. I recall an instance from 1970, when I was first > elected to Parliament as a member of the Rajya Sabha. Every ministry in the > Government of India has a consultative committee attached to it, comprising > MPs from both Houses. These Committees discuss matters pertaining to the > ministry, make recommendations, but do not take any decisions. > > A new MP is offered the option of working in a committee of his or her > choice. As a journalist by profession, I opted for the Ministry of > Information & Broadcasting. At the very first meeting of the committee that > I attended, I had to participate in a discussion which I felt was queer. A > Congress member had raised a strong objection to the Bhakti Sangeet > programme, featuring devotional songs, on AIR every morning. The ambience > generated by such programmes is intensely Hindu, he argued, and ‘a secular > state like ours should not permit this’. The member’s arguments did not > carry conviction with the committee, and so, in that forum he did not > pursue > the matter further. I later gathered that some time earlier this MP had > taken a delegation to Rashtrapati Bhavan to plead the same issue with our > then President Dr S. Radhakrishnan. After listening to their plaint > patiently, the Rashtrapati commented: ‘Let me tell you, ladies and > gentlemen, that I generally do not listen to All India Radio except in the > morning hours. The only programme I do like to hear is Bhakti Sangeet!’ > > In his writings and speeches, Dr. Radhakrishnan strongly stressed that a > secular state simply means a state which views all religions with equal > respect, and treats all citizens equally without any discrimination. > However, he underscored that a secular state is not an irreligious state. > When Mahatma Gandhi spoke of ‘Ram Rajya’ or when Gurudev Rabindranath > Tagore > invoked the prayer for ‘*Eka Dharmarajya hable a Bharate’ *(Let there be > one > Dharma Rajya, a just and moral order, in India), were they proposing a > theocratic or anti-secular state? What both Gandhiji and Tagore meant was > that without Dharmic underpinnings—meaning, thereby, spiritual and ethical > guidance—the Indian State and society cannot attain their desired > goals.*”** > * > > *‘No coconut-breaking, no lamp-lighting; we are a secular state.’* > > *“*When Rajiv Gandhi became Prime Minister, he invited me, as President of > the BJP, to serve as a member of the National Integration Council. At one > of > its meetings held in September 1986, there was a heated discussion on what > is meant by secularism in India. I had asked fellow members: ‘Is it > negation > of secularism if a new Indian ship is launched by breaking a coconut > against > its keel? Or should it be done by opening a champagne bottle? How should a > VIP formally inaugurate an exhibition—by lighting a lamp or by merely > cutting a tape with a pair of scissors?’ Many members concurred with me > that > there was nothing wrong about breaking a coconut or lighting a lamp at > functions. > > However, C. Rajeshwar Rao, an eminent leader of the CPI, reacted sharply to > my views, saying: ‘No coconuts, no lamps, we are a secular state.’I could > not resist joining issue with him. A Marxist with his conviction that > religion is the opium of the masses would understandably be allergic to > customs and traditions which have even a remote association to religion. > But > I felt that the concept of secularism, which India’s Constitution makers > had > in mind, had nothing in common with this Marxist approach. It is not > secularism, but pseudo-secularism. > > In fact, I insisted that, unlike in communism which banished religion even > from private life, Indian secularism has its roots in religion—in the Hindu > view that all roads lead to God, as enunciated in the Vedic dictum ‘*Ekam > Sat Vipraha Bahudha Vadanti*’ (Truth is One; the wise interpret it > differently). I reminded Rao and others at the meeting about what Gandhiji > had said: ‘Politics bereft of religion is absolute dirt, ever to be > shunned.’ > > One of the most comprehensive studies of Indian secularism has been done by > Donald Eugene Smith in his book *India: As a Secular State*. It succinctly > sums the differences between Gandhiji and Nehru on the issue of secularism, > and describes how this divergence sometimes created problems for the > government in the early years of Independence. Sardar Patel, Dr Rajendra > Prasad, C. Rajgopalachari (Rajaji) and Dr K.M. Munshi belonged to the > Gandhian school. I have explained this in detail in narrating the story of > the restoration of the Somnath Temple in Gujarat. > > What is deeply disconcerting, however, is that the Congress, under its > present leadership, has become far more insensitive to the proud symbols of > our nationalism than was the case at the time of Nehru or Indira Gandhi. > The > most shocking example of this is how the Congress party indirectly > supported > a recent vicious campaign against *Vande Mataram *by Muslim fanatics and > Marxists, who alleged that India’s national song has communal overtones. > > The culture of any ancient nation is bound to be composite. But in our > country, emphasis on the composite character of Indian culture is generally > an attempt to disown its essentially Hindu content. Even though an > outsider, > Donald Eugene Smith has taken due note of this, and perceptively observed > that, despite the composite nature of Indian culture, Hinduism remains by > far the most powerful and pervasive element in that culture. Those who lay > great stress on the composite nature of Indian culture frequently minimise > this basic fact. Hinduism has indeed provided the essential genius of > Indian > culture. > > The *Ramayana *and *Mahabharata *may evoke feelings of piety and religious > reverence in the Hindus. But do they belong only to Hindus? As invaluable > treasures of India’s cultural heritage, shouldn’t every Indian — Hindu, > Muslim or Christian — ought to feel proud of them? Breaking a coconut or > lighting a lamp may be part of a religious ritual with Hindus but over a > period of time these have become distinctive and graceful Indian customs. > Only someone who bears a deep-rooted allergy to religion can object to > these > practices. A secularism that entails hostility to anything that has a Hindu > tinge about it would not be acceptable to India. Indeed, so ingrained is > the > Indian concept of secularism in our national culture that it did not even > occur to the architects of our Constitution that they should specially > mention it as one of its preambulary principles. It is only during the > anti-democratic Emergency rule (1975–77) imposed by Indira Gandhi that > secularism found a place in the Constitution through the route of amendment > without any discussion in Parliament. How could there have been any debate > when almost all the main Opposition leaders were imprisoned and the press > was gagged?*”* > > *Chaplain’s prayer at the House of Commons* > > *“*I recall visiting London in 1990 as a member of a parliamentary > delegation led by the then Lok Sabha Speaker Rabi Ray. The Speaker of the > House of Commons had invited our delegation for dinner at his residence. We > all turned up on time. Our host and some select members of the House of > Commons were all there. Even after we were seated at the table, the service > would not start. ‘Are we waiting for someone?’, I asked the Labour Party MP > sitting beside me. His name was Greville Janner, and he replied: ‘Yes, the > Chaplain of the House is still to arrive. Dinner will commence only after > he > comes and conducts the prayers.’ I turned to my Indian colleague sitting on > the other side, a senior Marxist leader, and asked: ‘If something of this > kind were to happen in India, what would you do? Walk out?’ > > Incidentally, when the House Chaplain finally arrived, and prayers were > being said, Janner looked at me and, tongue-in-cheek, observed: ‘Mr. > Advani, > you are a Hindu, and I am a Jew; I hope he is including us also in his > prayers.’ Ever since this dinner meeting, Janner and I have been close > friends. He visits India quite frequently, and on no occasion have we > failed > to meet. I too meet up with him on my trips to London. He has been trying > to > foster good relations between different religions, both in Britain and > abroad.*”* > > ** > > *“*I urge all the right-minded people in the country, including silent but > concerned Congressmen, to raise their voice against the politics of > minorityism. Since India is not a theocratic state, the religious rights > and > the identities of the various faith-based communities that constitute the > Great Indian Family must indeed be protected. But notions of ‘majority’ and > ‘minority’ should have no place in the politics and statecraft of our > nation > much less be manipulated for vote-bank considerations. This divisive > mindset > jeopardises India as one united, integral and harmonious nation. The > Congress party is trying to divide the nation by continuously harping on > ‘minority protection’ in the same way that the British rulers did for their > own ulterior motives.* ”* > > ** > > *Source : lkadvani.in* > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > subscribe in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> From aliens at dataone.in Thu Apr 16 15:30:46 2009 From: aliens at dataone.in (bipin) Date: Thu, 16 Apr 2009 15:30:46 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] A Modest Appeal to Election Propagandists Message-ID: <004401c9be7a$36ea1d90$0201a8c0@limo> Dear Shuddha, This is election time and hence naturally discussion on that topic is natural. If you face out from the reality of todays politics is altogether different. After all from this discussion some thing will come out of better. I am not giving full marks to any political parsonality, but in this dirty politics you have to choose less evils or provide better development path. I am giving my neutral analysis since independence as under. I have put up this couple of occasion in sarai list, so this time, I am sending it to you only as under. In the 60 years of Independence, the things improving at very slow rate. Today poverty is 25 % below poverty line which was about 75 % at the time independence. It took 50/55 years for reduction of 50% poverty and major reduction took place after 1991 only when reform started. Govt. job is to create opportunity by way of developing infrastructure in the field of Power, Road, Port, Airport which helps in the overall development. This key development was ignored since independence for about 50 years. During Narsimharao rule he took bold step by bringing Dr. Manmohansingh as Finance Minister, a non-politician and started free economy which was necessary to develop competitiveness in the Indian industries. At that time (1992-93) my friends/business ally telling that by cut in import duty Indian industries will die. But, I told them that nothing will happen and with this step Indian industries will grow very well and within 10 years Indian industries were capable to buy foreign industries. Rajiv Gandhi has also done good job in the communication field and brought computer age. At this stage also, infrastructure development was not upto the mark, which was started in big scale by Atalji in the field of Road, Power, Airports. Many were arguing why wasting in road to run luxury cars. I replied that 85% roads are used by trucks for transportation and with the improved quality of road transportation becomes chip and ultimately benefited to people only. This infrastructure of Road development running in the fast pace were slowed down drastically when UPA came to power because of orhtodoc congressy, communists and Laluji. They have diverted infrastructural fund in few useless schemes like Compulsary Rojgar Scheme. I am sure this scheme's 60/70% fund is wasted by way of corruption. Such chip scheme is again to make show to gather vote only. This is not the way to root development. By such scheme you are making people lazy. They get assurance to get work (may be 100 days in year) from govt. and did not try their own will to do something.This infrastructural development should have been started after 5/10 years of independence and in that case India would have been super power by now. But sorry to say that Congress was after vote bank politics only (Particularly from the Indira Gandhi rule. Corruption has also started heavily during her rule) and there policies were decided keeping in the mind of minority vote bank. So, to counter this minority vote bank BJP started vowing major vote bank of Hindu and vicious circle started. Of course they apply tit for tat policy. (Loha, lohe ko kate) Nuclear agreement with US was initiated by NDA govt. only and I doubt even congress would have thought in this line to do such agreement. However, it was initiated once one has to go on that direction and if Manmohansingh (non-politician, non-congress originally) was not there as PM, it would have not been done. BJP was opposing for some clause of it included on the pressure of US. This agreement was necessary because our nuclear plant producing power was not working without fuel like uranium and to run this plant we require the fuel else they would have been scrapped. In India we talk about the lack of cleanliness of roads and public places. I do not blame any govt. for this, the un-disciplined public is responsible for it. To bring discipline, I think we should make compulsory NCC subject in the college. It was there earlier, but Indira has removed it. Today, if anyone talks to bring NCC back, National anthem/prayer like vandemataram, Surya-namaskar for exercise purpose (its best exercise) or any such type, but the so called pseudo-secularist comes in the media to oppose it with the argument that you are forcing Hinduism. They are not real secular, but worry for their vote bank. These are all steps bring discipline and nationality (not Hinduism). I remember when Atalji became PM, I wrote one letter to PMO with suggestions like: The reservation policy benefit can be given to those family having family planning (2 children) or at the most 3 children. I got just one line answer: Thanks. Good suggestion, we will think over it. I gave this suggestions to one my friend in the congress also, but he told that no one like to lose back-ward class votes by applying this, though its good suggestion. Vote bank politics is biggest hindrance in India to grow healthily. I have gave you above analysis as nuetral person and not belonging to any political party. The real progress after independent was speedded up by NDA govt. after reform started by Mr. Manmohansingh. Now, time has come to govern the country by efficient, dynamic and knowledgeable persons irrespective of he/she being a politician or non-politician. One should forget past and elect the one who can deliver the real development. May be he/she is Narendra Modi, Shila Dixit, Shivraj Chauhan, Raman Singh, Nitishkumar, CM of Haryana or even young leader like Rahul. However, Rahul has to still prove his administrative capabilities. thanks Bipin ----- Original Message ----- From: "Shuddhabrata Sengupta" To: "Pawan Durani" Cc: "sarai list" Sent: Thursday, April 16, 2009 12:39 AM Subject: [Reader-list] A Modest Appeal to Election Propagandists > Dear All, > > I never thought the day would come when the reader list, after all > the nonsense it has had to swallow over the last few years, would > also have to bear with the indignity of being subject to missives > sent on behalf of the person, Atal Behari Vajpayee, who having > hobbled along past his sell by date, continues to peddle the tripe > that goes by the name of his pathetic party. > > This was meant to be a list for serious discussion, and has instead > become a forum for the less than mediocre propaganda, mainly of the > seemingly inexhaustible far right. Not just jibes (of course, > unsubstantiated) against activists, but now, much worse, the pompous > serenade of someone who was not just the worst prime minister (A B > Vajpayee( but also probably the worst poet that this country has had > the misfortune to have been subject to. > > I hope that you will all (irrespective of political affiliation and > loyalties) join me in requesting everyone concerned not to burden us > with this kind of puerile election propaganda in the future. It is > bad enough that I have to take calls from the BJP and the Congress > and the Third, Fourth, Left, Right and my phone an in my mailbox, it > is worse to see this space that we have tried to nurture for > autonomous discussion being slowly crept on by electioneering. In > this election, where no party and no candidate has any vision worth > discussing, the last thing we need is to have the space between our > ears being filled with election spam on the reader list. > > Please try and keep election garbage out of here. > > thanks > > Shuddha > > > On 15-Apr-09, at 11:20 PM, Pawan Durani wrote: > >> My Dear Fellow Citizens, >> >> The decisive hour for electing the 15th Lok Sabha is upon us. >> Today, our >> nation is confronted by serious challenges of every kind. To >> successfully >> meet these challenges the nation needs a strong government and a >> determined >> leader. A government that by means of good governance, can ensure >> security >> for and rapid development of our country – a promise that has been >> made and >> will be delivered by Shri LK Advani. >> >> I am unable to meet all of you due to poor health. However, I am >> grateful to >> you for the belongingness and affection that you have showered upon >> me. What >> perturbs me much more than my own health is the health of my India. >> The cure >> for that lies in your firm resolve. >> >> Shri Lal Krishna Advani and I have been working together since >> 1952. His >> unblemished character and resolute personality have shown like a >> light torch >> in Indian politics. He is skilful in the art of taking up >> challenges and >> overcoming them. He is a compassionate human being and an >> exceptional leader >> whose best is yet to come. I firmly believe becoming the Prime >> Minister of >> India will bring out the best in him. >> >> I appeal to all of you, especially to the youth of our country, to >> extend >> your wholehearted support, assistance and mandate to the BJP and >> its allied >> parties. Only Advaniji is capable of fulfilling the dream that both >> of us >> have seen together. Adavaniji can provide a new direction to the >> governance >> of this country so that we create an India that is devoid of poverty, >> hunger, despair and injustice. >> >> I invite you to join me in taking a firm resolve to create a strong >> government under the determined leadership of Shree Advani for a >> strong and >> prosperous India. This will only happen when you make the >> candidates of BJP >> and its allies from your region victorious. >> >> Thank you, >> >> Atal Behari Vajpayee >> >> >> >> http://www.lkadvani.in/eng/content/view/865/427/ >> _________________________________________ >> reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. >> Critiques & Collaborations >> To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with >> subscribe in the subject header. >> To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list >> List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> > > Shuddhabrata Sengupta > The Sarai Programme at CSDS > Raqs Media Collective > shuddha at sarai.net > www.sarai.net > www.raqsmediacollective.net > > > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with subscribe in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> From aliens at dataone.in Thu Apr 16 15:33:12 2009 From: aliens at dataone.in (bipin) Date: Thu, 16 Apr 2009 15:33:12 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Atalji's appeal to Indian voters References: <6b79f1a70904151050i26c49d8dw27120a6520e04ba1@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <004d01c9be7a$8d98d1e0$0201a8c0@limo> very good and welcome message from Atalji ----- Original Message ----- From: "Pawan Durani" To: "sarai list" Sent: Wednesday, April 15, 2009 11:20 PM Subject: [Reader-list] Atalji's appeal to Indian voters > My Dear Fellow Citizens, > > The decisive hour for electing the 15th Lok Sabha is upon us. Today, our > nation is confronted by serious challenges of every kind. To successfully > meet these challenges the nation needs a strong government and a > determined > leader. A government that by means of good governance, can ensure security > for and rapid development of our country – a promise that has been made > and > will be delivered by Shri LK Advani. > > I am unable to meet all of you due to poor health. However, I am grateful > to > you for the belongingness and affection that you have showered upon me. > What > perturbs me much more than my own health is the health of my India. The > cure > for that lies in your firm resolve. > > Shri Lal Krishna Advani and I have been working together since 1952. His > unblemished character and resolute personality have shown like a light > torch > in Indian politics. He is skilful in the art of taking up challenges and > overcoming them. He is a compassionate human being and an exceptional > leader > whose best is yet to come. I firmly believe becoming the Prime Minister of > India will bring out the best in him. > > I appeal to all of you, especially to the youth of our country, to extend > your wholehearted support, assistance and mandate to the BJP and its > allied > parties. Only Advaniji is capable of fulfilling the dream that both of us > have seen together. Adavaniji can provide a new direction to the > governance > of this country so that we create an India that is devoid of poverty, > hunger, despair and injustice. > > I invite you to join me in taking a firm resolve to create a strong > government under the determined leadership of Shree Advani for a strong > and > prosperous India. This will only happen when you make the candidates of > BJP > and its allies from your region victorious. > > Thank you, > > Atal Behari Vajpayee > > > > http://www.lkadvani.in/eng/content/view/865/427/ > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > subscribe in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> From aliens at dataone.in Thu Apr 16 15:38:01 2009 From: aliens at dataone.in (bipin) Date: Thu, 16 Apr 2009 15:38:01 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] A Modest Appeal to Election Propagandists References: <6b79f1a70904151050i26c49d8dw27120a6520e04ba1@mail.gmail.com> <2F94A86F-611C-4EE0-A9A4-9DD953E858D7@sarai.net> <6b79f1a70904152013v15d69a70oc44cb086fe2d26ca@mail.gmail.com> <6353c690904160112x7fe5e537t255672250e5b4b9a@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <005a01c9be7b$3a5d7cf0$0201a8c0@limo> Dear Aditya, Whole community will not have effect with arrogance of one man. We can carry out the discussion with right spirit by just ignoring Shuddhabrata Sengupta. thanks Bipin ----- Original Message ----- From: "Aditya Raj Kaul" To: "sarai list" Sent: Thursday, April 16, 2009 1:42 PM Subject: Re: [Reader-list] A Modest Appeal to Election Propagandists > Fortunately enough Reader's List at Sarai does not work according to the > wishes of one Shuddhabrata Sengupta. After many attacks, it has survived > and > still holds to be a free flowing interactive forum. > > Wonder what mess it would have been if 'jhollahwallahs' had their acts & > wishes implemented here on this forum too? > > We would have been 'in exile' yet again from this forum too. Can you beat > that ? > > God Bless!! > > On Thu, Apr 16, 2009 at 11:17 AM, Shuddhabrata Sengupta > wrote: > >> Dear all, >> >> Opinions are one thing. Advertisement is another. Atal Bihari >> Vajpayee's 'letter' is not an opinion, or even an argument. It is an >> advertisement. It says nothing in substance other than the fact that >> 'Advani is Good for India'. It does not really tell us why, except >> for the fact that Vajpayee knows and has worked with Advani and >> thinks that he is good for India.It does not even spell out an idea >> of a programme or a vision that Vajpayee, Advani and their party >> stand for. All it offers us are the usual platitudes that every >> political party, at every election offers. It is as meaningful, and >> about as enlightening, as a Pepsi ad trying to tell us how different >> it is from Coke. >> >> This list has always had room for all kinds of opinions and >> viewpoints. I do not know of any forum that takes its ethic of >> tolerance as seriously as this list. Which is why people like Pawan >> Durani and me, who happen to occupy completely antagonistic >> positions, can still share the same space. >> >> I do not recall anyone on this list ever posting or forwarding >> election propaganda for any political party before Durani's forward >> of Atal Behari Vajpayee's 'appeal'. So the question of likening this >> 'ad' to any other posts, which have carried does not arise. We have >> simply not had to deal with party political propaganda like this before. >> >> If someone had peddled Prakash Karat's plug for the CPI (M) or Rahul >> Gandhi's endorsement for the Congress, my response would not have >> been one bit different. I would have said exactly what I am saying >> about Durani's forward of Vajpayee's campaign message. >> >> If this becomes acceptable, then next, we will have people peddling >> the Nano Car, advertising Mouth Freshners and endorsing products of >> all descriptions including the washing machines, the Congress Party, >> teflon coated household products, the Nehru-Gandhi Dynasty, potato >> crisps, the BSP, Microsoft software, sedatives and the CPI(M). >> >> Our media space is saturated as it is with advertisements. Please let >> us try and protect a small space for discussion and reflection from >> the encroachments of political advertisements and election marketing >> exercises. I would appeal to everyone to restrain themselves from >> putting out this kind of endorsement of electoral platforms. There >> are many other forums for these exercises on the internet, please >> take all public-relations material there. And spare us, >> >> Oddly, advertising pundits often fail to take into account the fact >> that some campaigns backfire on the products that they are supposed >> to endorse. >> >> regards >> >> Shuddha >> >> >> On 16-Apr-09, at 8:43 AM, Pawan Durani wrote: >> >> > Dear All, >> > >> > What may be serious for 'x' may be non serious for 'y'. Who defines >> > the limits ? Unless the group is meant to support a particular >> > ideology leaning towards my weaker hand side. >> > >> > This group has been forwarded mails from pathetic writers and >> > Kashmir expert like 'Aran Dhat Teri Ki Roy ' and we had to bear >> > that . >> > >> > It is understandable that someone may not understand poetry of Mr >> > Vajpayee as I do not understand Marx either. >> > >> > However the time is ripe that communal right wing party like >> > Communists , who have an election with radical Muslim party like >> > PDP of Madhani in Kerela should be returned without any seat across >> > the country. >> > >> > The dual standards of pathetic and hazardous party needs to be >> > exposed . At least we may be saving the future generation of >> > innocent youths who undergo a brain wash by the followers of >> > foreign ideology. >> > >> > Regards >> > >> > pawan >> > >> > >> > >> > On Thu, Apr 16, 2009 at 12:39 AM, Shuddhabrata Sengupta >> > wrote: >> > Dear All, >> > >> > I never thought the day would come when the reader list, after all >> > the nonsense it has had to swallow over the last few years, would >> > also have to bear with the indignity of being subject to missives >> > sent on behalf of the person, Atal Behari Vajpayee, who having >> > hobbled along past his sell by date, continues to peddle the tripe >> > that goes by the name of his pathetic party. >> > >> > This was meant to be a list for serious discussion, and has instead >> > become a forum for the less than mediocre propaganda, mainly of the >> > seemingly inexhaustible far right. Not just jibes (of course, >> > unsubstantiated) against activists, but now, much worse, the >> > pompous serenade of someone who was not just the worst prime >> > minister (A B Vajpayee( but also probably the worst poet that this >> > country has had the misfortune to have been subject to. >> > >> > I hope that you will all (irrespective of political affiliation and >> > loyalties) join me in requesting everyone concerned not to burden >> > us with this kind of puerile election propaganda in the future. It >> > is bad enough that I have to take calls from the BJP and the >> > Congress and the Third, Fourth, Left, Right and my phone an in my >> > mailbox, it is worse to see this space that we have tried to >> > nurture for autonomous discussion being slowly crept on by >> > electioneering. In this election, where no party and no candidate >> > has any vision worth discussing, the last thing we need is to have >> > the space between our ears being filled with election spam on the >> > reader list. >> > >> > Please try and keep election garbage out of here. >> > >> > thanks >> > >> > Shuddha >> > >> > >> > On 15-Apr-09, at 11:20 PM, Pawan Durani wrote: >> > >> >> My Dear Fellow Citizens, >> >> >> >> The decisive hour for electing the 15th Lok Sabha is upon us. >> >> Today, our >> >> nation is confronted by serious challenges of every kind. To >> >> successfully >> >> meet these challenges the nation needs a strong government and a >> >> determined >> >> leader. A government that by means of good governance, can ensure >> >> security >> >> for and rapid development of our country – a promise that has been >> >> made and >> >> will be delivered by Shri LK Advani. >> >> >> >> I am unable to meet all of you due to poor health. However, I am >> >> grateful to >> >> you for the belongingness and affection that you have showered >> >> upon me. What >> >> perturbs me much more than my own health is the health of my >> >> India. The cure >> >> for that lies in your firm resolve. >> >> >> >> Shri Lal Krishna Advani and I have been working together since >> >> 1952. His >> >> unblemished character and resolute personality have shown like a >> >> light torch >> >> in Indian politics. He is skilful in the art of taking up >> >> challenges and >> >> overcoming them. He is a compassionate human being and an >> >> exceptional leader >> >> whose best is yet to come. I firmly believe becoming the Prime >> >> Minister of >> >> India will bring out the best in him. >> >> >> >> I appeal to all of you, especially to the youth of our country, to >> >> extend >> >> your wholehearted support, assistance and mandate to the BJP and >> >> its allied >> >> parties. Only Advaniji is capable of fulfilling the dream that >> >> both of us >> >> have seen together. Adavaniji can provide a new direction to the >> >> governance >> >> of this country so that we create an India that is devoid of poverty, >> >> hunger, despair and injustice. >> >> >> >> I invite you to join me in taking a firm resolve to create a strong >> >> government under the determined leadership of Shree Advani for a >> >> strong and >> >> prosperous India. This will only happen when you make the >> >> candidates of BJP >> >> and its allies from your region victorious. >> >> >> >> Thank you, >> >> >> >> Atal Behari Vajpayee >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> http://www.lkadvani.in/eng/content/view/865/427/ >> >> _________________________________________ >> >> reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. >> >> Critiques & Collaborations >> >> To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with >> >> subscribe in the subject header. >> >> To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list >> >> List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> >> > >> > Shuddhabrata Sengupta >> > The Sarai Programme at CSDS >> > Raqs Media Collective >> > shuddha at sarai.net >> > www.sarai.net >> > www.raqsmediacollective.net >> > >> > >> > >> >> Shuddhabrata Sengupta >> The Sarai Programme at CSDS >> Raqs Media Collective >> shuddha at sarai.net >> www.sarai.net >> www.raqsmediacollective.net >> >> >> _________________________________________ >> reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. >> Critiques & Collaborations >> To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with >> subscribe in the subject header. >> To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list >> List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> >> > > > > -- > Aditya Raj Kaul > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > subscribe in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> From rakesh.rnbdj at gmail.com Thu Apr 16 15:42:59 2009 From: rakesh.rnbdj at gmail.com (Rakesh Iyer) Date: Thu, 16 Apr 2009 15:42:59 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Atalji's appeal to Indian voters In-Reply-To: <004d01c9be7a$8d98d1e0$0201a8c0@limo> References: <6b79f1a70904151050i26c49d8dw27120a6520e04ba1@mail.gmail.com> <004d01c9be7a$8d98d1e0$0201a8c0@limo> Message-ID: Dear all (Pawan and Bipin included) Stop putting up messages for BJP/Congress/BSP/SP/others as this is not the forum for electioneering. This is a forum where we discuss issues, not campaign for parties. Please don't put up such items. Regards Rakesh Iyer From aliens at dataone.in Thu Apr 16 15:52:03 2009 From: aliens at dataone.in (bipin) Date: Thu, 16 Apr 2009 15:52:03 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Atalji's appeal to Indian voters References: <6b79f1a70904151050i26c49d8dw27120a6520e04ba1@mail.gmail.com> <004d01c9be7a$8d98d1e0$0201a8c0@limo> Message-ID: <006f01c9be7d$3028cee0$0201a8c0@limo> I am highlighting truth and not at all campaigning. Don't get excited or run away from naked truth of the' ----- Original Message ----- From: Rakesh Iyer To: bipin Cc: Pawan Durani ; sarai-list Sent: Thursday, April 16, 2009 3:42 PM Subject: Re: [Reader-list] Atalji's appeal to Indian voters Dear all (Pawan and Bipin included) Stop putting up messages for BJP/Congress/BSP/SP/others as this is not the forum for electioneering. This is a forum where we discuss issues, not campaign for parties. Please don't put up such items. Regards Rakesh Iyer From rakesh.rnbdj at gmail.com Thu Apr 16 16:02:50 2009 From: rakesh.rnbdj at gmail.com (Rakesh Iyer) Date: Thu, 16 Apr 2009 16:02:50 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] A Modest Appeal to Election Propagandists In-Reply-To: <005a01c9be7b$3a5d7cf0$0201a8c0@limo> References: <6b79f1a70904151050i26c49d8dw27120a6520e04ba1@mail.gmail.com> <2F94A86F-611C-4EE0-A9A4-9DD953E858D7@sarai.net> <6b79f1a70904152013v15d69a70oc44cb086fe2d26ca@mail.gmail.com> <6353c690904160112x7fe5e537t255672250e5b4b9a@mail.gmail.com> <005a01c9be7b$3a5d7cf0$0201a8c0@limo> Message-ID: Dear all I think simply advertising is not what this site is meant for. And as for Aditya, Pawan, Bipin and others, everybody here, I would like to ask something: You all have been cribbing that Muslims did this and that in the last 1,000 years ago. And they continue to do some other things as well, all of which are wrong. You also say that secularists are trying to save these Muslims and disturbing Hindus as well. What do you want: Muslims to be punished for their alleged atrocities for the past 1,000 years (by killing them, sentencing to death, raping their women or something else), or be subjected to economic hardships for this, or be deprived of right to vote, or something else? Do you wish that secularists should be also sentenced to any of these? Or both of them? What is your conception of the nation? What is meant in your terms by development of the nation? You put up articles supporting the right-wing stand. You always argue indirectly or directly that the BJP is in some way right, or the issues they raised at least are right. You even point out that Kashmiri Muslims have done this or that, Godhra has happened etc. What is your conception of Indian Muslims? And what are you against? Indian Muslims? Secularism? Congress? Left? Something else? And what are you for? Sangh Parivar? BJP? or Right Wing ideology? So-called Genuine secularism? Something else? Instead of advertising Vajpayee and supporting him, better speak about your own views to begin with. As for Vajpayee, we all know how he was sacked by the Indian public from power and what was the result of his India Shining campaign. And yes, for all my answers to questions I have raised I would write another mail, but only after some time. Please do bear with me for that. Regards Rakesh From rakesh.rnbdj at gmail.com Thu Apr 16 16:05:18 2009 From: rakesh.rnbdj at gmail.com (Rakesh Iyer) Date: Thu, 16 Apr 2009 16:05:18 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Atalji's appeal to Indian voters In-Reply-To: <006f01c9be7d$3028cee0$0201a8c0@limo> References: <6b79f1a70904151050i26c49d8dw27120a6520e04ba1@mail.gmail.com> <004d01c9be7a$8d98d1e0$0201a8c0@limo> <006f01c9be7d$3028cee0$0201a8c0@limo> Message-ID: There is no such thing as truth except what we see before our eyes (which too could be stage-managed), the rest all are perceptions. From monica at sarai.net Thu Apr 16 16:21:02 2009 From: monica at sarai.net (Monica Narula) Date: Thu, 16 Apr 2009 16:21:02 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] TIMEBOOK Message-ID: <2F6A4CDA-57C7-472A-9928-C8F0225FF141@sarai.net> Timebook by Raqs Media Collective Timebook is a vade mecum without words, a guide for all those perplexed by the way that the ground constantly shifts beneath their feet. It may be consulted by opening at random, and by reading the patterns made by heat and time as signs with which to navigate the elusive present. http://www.onestarpress.com/Time-Book The book is best "read" in double page PDF view. Monica Narula Raqs Media Collective Sarai-CSDS www.raqsmediacollective.net www.sarai.net From sub_sengupta at yahoo.co.in Thu Apr 16 16:21:33 2009 From: sub_sengupta at yahoo.co.in (subhrodip sengupta) Date: Thu, 16 Apr 2009 16:21:33 +0530 (IST) Subject: [Reader-list] digital sine wave invertors should be taxed? POWER THEFT. Message-ID: <950525.54441.qm@web94712.mail.in2.yahoo.com> Should high capacity Invertors be taxed? Dìgital invertors, a nice invention. Is se aapka har appliance chalein. Friends in delhi ive seen 2 season of summer n winter why excessive power consumption power cuts rationing etc obviously against some but power consumption is neither moniterable at distribution say factory level. Power cuts follow excessive loads on the system. Scene 1 most people have invertors, but of a limited capacity. Consumption per capita is reduced marginal load readjustd time schedule fits into power cut time lesson power saving not using high power consuming systems. Case 2 many ie large enough people have high cap invertors. Scenario- excessive load huge and pro rata power cuts of duration greater than invertors can supply. Energy efficiency and consumption do not imply each other.. For example compresor and water pump consume or use different power similarly outputs or work done are different. But there are energy efficient lifestyles which save energy. Moreover no system is 100 pc efficient ie storage devices tøo consume energy creating is a distant dream. Petroleum Gen sets use petroleum input dissipate much thermal energy then kinetic . But since each unit comes at a premium this does not induce problems in electric supply and people though happier can be clubbed with nön invertor a c dc and back users. Now at last the dry third case - some wealthy people put a lot of strain when they could have switched to other sources with increasing currents while others use modest amount of load or on load since they cannot afford or had better senses. Again pandora limit tells us more power cuts not least marginal may be cover able by some sets off course by wealthy ones why because many are without invertor . Phew seems unfair interventiön into a distributiön system extraction of rights. Ha alternative a use own system use alternative source if you can since you can pay invest a bit. O. K. The poorer ones who due to no reason become economy class for you can pay 4 what they r losing. Add more friends to your messenger and enjoy! Go to http://messenger.yahoo.com/invite/ From rama.sangye at gmail.com Thu Apr 16 16:27:14 2009 From: rama.sangye at gmail.com (V Ramaswamy) Date: Thu, 16 Apr 2009 16:27:14 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] The Goddess Hingala Of Baluchistan In-Reply-To: <6ade4a8f0904151102s1123b28dg5907e0a8f360d10e@mail.gmail.com> References: <5af37bb0904140440x4a2585dcu8998eafad2fece0a@mail.gmail.com> <47886.62110.qm@web57207.mail.re3.yahoo.com> <6ade4a8f0904151102s1123b28dg5907e0a8f360d10e@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <6ade4a8f0904160357h163195a1pd7d26d01962a705e@mail.gmail.com> Dulali Nag wrote: About Marutirtha Hinglaj, don't forget Anil Chatterjee in the film. He essayed a very powerful character. Also Bikash Roy, who was also the director of the film. The other song in the film, "tomar bhubane mago ato paap, e ki obhishap, nai protikar, mithyari joy aj shotyero nai tai odhikar" is also timeless. From kshmendra2005 at yahoo.com Thu Apr 16 17:06:56 2009 From: kshmendra2005 at yahoo.com (Kshmendra Kaul) Date: Thu, 16 Apr 2009 04:36:56 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Reader-list] Earth hour: Green stupidity/Romanticist aesthetics In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <66250.92493.qm@web57205.mail.re3.yahoo.com> Dear Supreet   Thank you for this 'illuminating' post.   Would appreciate your comments and additions/alterations to the following (not exhaustive list of) steps that would significantly contribute to "Save the Earth':   - Nuclear and Hydroelectric Power generation instead of from fossil fuels   - Reduction of number of cars plying on the roads. An excellent idea for metropolises is legislating to allow odd and even digit number plates only on alternate days.   - Encouraging through incentives or penalising tariffs, the usage of smaller cars with better 'mileage'   - Encouraging through incentives or penalising tariffs long distance journeys by Train or Vehicles instead of By Air    Interestingly, India is in the bottom half of any tabulation of the per capita greenhouse gas emissions of countries   Kshmendra  --- On Thu, 4/16/09, s|s wrote: From: s|s Subject: [Reader-list] Earth hour: Green stupidity/Romanticist aesthetics To: "sarai list" Date: Thursday, April 16, 2009, 7:52 AM The green propaganda has been successful. In fact, it has been so successful, that there is no need for offering facts for getting certain segment of society to act upon its 'dictate'. I came to know about Earth hour next day when large black blob on front-page in a popular news-paper announced that 600 MW electricity was saved because people switched off their lights and used candles instead. While I congratulate all who were part of this experiment for being sensitive towards 'mother earth'. I must add, it just makes you worst offenders in robbing its resources by being ludicrously un-informed. The power that was not consumed, apparently was saved. Important question is where? Did somebody hire batteries to be charged with the 'saved' power. Because frankly any power which has not being consumed in a power grid is wasted. Was NTPC or other power companies informed that you need to produce less power during this time? On consumption part of the business, using candles is frankly more polluting than consuming power from grid by order of four times, even if power is produced using coal. This atleast makes people who participated in 'Earth hour' worst offenders by not using up electricity that has already been produced and using candles which requires transport by trucks, lorries compared to relatively efficient grids. Turning off unnecessary switches on day to day is all that is required. Supreet _________________________________________ reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. Critiques & Collaborations To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with subscribe in the subject header. To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> From sub_sengupta at yahoo.co.in Thu Apr 16 17:15:47 2009 From: sub_sengupta at yahoo.co.in (subhrodip sengupta) Date: Thu, 16 Apr 2009 17:15:47 +0530 (IST) Subject: [Reader-list] =?utf-8?q?=5BFwd=3A_Let=E2=80=99s_make_a_better_Dem?= =?utf-8?q?ocracy-_Let=E2=80=99s_Vote_for_Child_Rights!=5D=5B?= In-Reply-To: <49E6CD07.5070409@sarai.net> Message-ID: <863149.71355.qm@web94709.mail.in2.yahoo.com> Reminds me of a boogie-woogie joke. This is no joke everyone voting does make people more interested in politics and government more accountable. Lost and New seats etc teach parties valuable lessons and people about their right to vote. But vote 4 whom what if as a by product of the de generation of the system people have lost faith in it? Few years ago convincing to vote was prevented but now it is not. It reminds of murder of independant candidates and from poorer parties. It reminds me of recent murder of a justice league candidate. How can people vote if there is no none suitable option.. If jobs depend ön parties if vandalism is widespread under unrule for a single days peace honour or protection from beating or if under influence of alcohol or any other feudal values votes are cast democracy lives and leaves dominating forces betters congress reminding us of rajiv gandhi benefits. Is truth tellin not worse? The sufferage takes off 4 casting multiple votes &women children campaign what do they understand?all remains is 2 category party workers and non workers those who take part in processins never rule 4 they are meant to follow. To top it people make promises not legally enforcable. Thus democracy stage has taken gross state in india where all members are affiliated to same party. We need innovation more leaders. Scientists innovate we need people whom we may trust and who posess good skills. We must encourage new leaders than voters. Why do we tell people they matter when 40% or even lesser numbers can vote. Last about displacement and influence by busines. Ask questions give positive advice think but vote only if you feel like. People have right not to vote, but misusing it demeans the moderate threat instrument like mass bunks have done to agitations. Mitoo Das wrote: > Dear Anupam, > The message was send to me by a friend at CRY who had requested me to > post it for him. I had forwarded it and guess should not have taken that > option. This converted the message into an attachment (which ultimately > did not get displayed :-P). Sending it again. Hopefully you can see it now. > Best, > Mitoo. > Let’s make a better Democracy- Let’s Vote for Child Rights! > > The nation goes to vote from 16th and 40% of Indians - 400 million > Indians - will not punch the button. Because they are children. > Without the right to choose their political leaders, children cannot > directly ensure that: > * 70 of every 1000 children born do not die each year > *Every 2nd child under 5 is not malnourished > * All children are in school and complete formal schooling : the 52% > children who are out of school are enrolled and ensured complete formal > schooling > * All children have access to adequate nutrition and equal opportunities > * Children are protected from child labour, abuse and trafficking > But YOU can! > Child rights can only become central to a country’s political agenda if > its people choose to make it priority by ensuring government > accountability to actualize the rights of children. Children must be > looked on as equal citizens, entitled to equal rights. So when you vote > this time, voice the rights of children - think of children, think of > the promises we made to them in our Constitution to live a life of > dignity that must include food, health, shelter, education, protection > and play. > This election, CRY - Child Rights and You, seeks to rAaise public > awareness on the state of children in India and unite people to stand up > and demand what is right. > We call out to each and every one of YOU – India’s electorate - to hold > representatives, contesting candidates, political parties and policy > makers accountable for child rights by demanding specific > non-negotiables from the government. Working with India’s children for > the past 30 years, we know that we will bring in the day when all > children are ensured their right to the childhood they deserve. And with > your voice, we firmly believe we will. > Child Rights Charter > • The definition of a child to be universally applicable to all persons > under the age of 18 years, thereby amending discrepancies in policies > and acts affecting children. > • Increase government expenditure on children. Specifically increase > expenditure on education to 10% and health to 7% of GDP. > • The government should ensure that all children age 6-18 years, without > discrimination, should be in government formal, full-time schools that > provide quality education in their own villages/hamlets/in the > neighbourhood. . All children below 6 years should be in anganwadis > • The RTE Bill (Right of Children to Free and Compulsory Education Bill, > 2008) should be redrafted to reflect the true sprit of children’s right > to education. Privatization and commercialization of education to be > discouraged. > • Immediate provision of nutritious mid-day meals in all primary schools > and extension of this scheme to include all children including > out-of-school children right through the year. Make available Integrated > Child Development Services to all children under the age of six years, > as per the Supreme Court order of November 2001. > • Complete prohibition on all forms of child labour across sectors > including agriculture. All working children and child labourers to be > brought into the formal school system with special emphasis on girl > children who are engaged in household work and child-care. > • Revision of the National Policy for Children (1974) to make it more > comprehensive and in line with the Constitution and the United Nations > Convention on the Rights of the Child. > • Formulate and implement a comprehensive rights-based policy on food > security for all with extensive legal safeguards, in order that no child > goes to bed hungry and no child is born underweight and stay > undernourished. The criteria for defining the poverty line and therefore > coverage under the Public Distribution System (PDS) for food should be > revised. Universalize PDS. > • Enactment and implementation of effective legislation for preventing > and prohibiting sexual abuse of children and trafficking of children > • Education to be inclusive so that children with disabilities are also > ensured equal opportunities to be integrated into mainstream society > • For children living in conflict-affected areas, ensure children’s > fundamental rights, including the right to protection, to education and > to live with their family. > The demands above can be effectively realised only when larger issues, > closely linked to children’s rights, are ensured. Some of these are: > • Migration and displacement lead to disruption in children’s > development, access to education and health facilities making them > vulnerable to exploitation and abuse. To prevent this it is critical to > * Prevent lop sided development that induces displacement of the > marginalized communities. > *Alter Special Economic Zone Act 2005, preventing misappropriation of > land, ensuring that the marginalized are not exploited. Put in place and > implement an effective rehabilitation and resettlement policy > * Reformulate the Jawaharlal Nehru National Urban Renewal Mission > (JNNURM) where the government shoulders its responsibility, rather than > promoting Public-Private partnerships, in order to effectively uphold > the housing rights of urban poor > * Implement land reform policies that will prevent migration and enable > children to develop within their communities and geography. > * Withdraw the Coastal Management Zone (CMZ) Notification 2006 and > Implement Coastal Regulation Zone (CRZ) 1991 as an Act so as to protect > natural resources and the customary rights of coastal communities. > *Implement Forest Dwellers (Recognition of Forest Rights) Act 2006 which > allows tribal communities greater control over forest resources. > * Repeal Petroleum, Chemical and Petrochemical Investment Region (PCPIR) > Act 2003 which commodifies common property resources. > • Ensure living and equal wages for all adults to enable them to protect > their children’s rights. > • Revision of the agriculture policy to protect small and marginal farmers > • Social security for all including unorganized workers be guaranteed > and implemented to safeguard their rights. > • Ensure the right to housing for families so that every child has the > right to safe space. > • Ensure that communalism be countered in order to prevent atrocities > against minorities and ensure the basic rights for all. Establish > secular practices in society and polity. > • Ensure that basic human rights are protected during counter-terrorism > operations. The Indian government to stop supporting war efforts both > within and outside its boundaries. > Vote for someone: > 1. Who will work to ensure rights of all children, their health, > education, and over all development > 2. Who will work for enhancing social security, employment > opportunities, peace and prosperity of all > 3. Who will not create divisiveness or spread hatred, communalism and > violence in society > VOTE FOR TODAY VOTE FOR TOMORROW......CRY -CHILD RIGHTS AND YOU > WWW.CRY.ORG > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with subscribe in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> Check out the all-new Messenger 9.0! Go to http://in.messenger.yahoo.com/ From jeebesh at sarai.net Thu Apr 16 17:31:00 2009 From: jeebesh at sarai.net (Jeebesh) Date: Thu, 16 Apr 2009 17:31:00 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] "Lesser Evil" Message-ID: <5EB905D7-0A2D-4EDC-BD88-C60978F403B8@sarai.net> dear All, Since the term "Lesser Evil" has come up in the list, it maybe worthwhile to think this trope through. Enclosed is a text by Eyal Weizman, an architect working btw Israel and UK. He has been investigating this mode of argumentation and thinking for a while now. Please do give this some attention. best Jeebesh http://roundtable.kein.org/node/802 Eyal Weizman: 665/The Lesser Evil Submitted by eyal weizman on Thu, 2008-08-07 17:33 A few months ago a friend sent me the following lines by the Italian comedian Beppe Grillo: ‘For a long time Italians have been in a [political] coma. We are always in search of the lesser evil. In fact, we should construct a monument for the “lesser evil”. A huge monument in the middle of Rome’. If anyone ever asked me to build such a monument, in Rome or elsewhere, I would probably look for a high hill and place the digits 665 (like giant Hollywood letters) overlooking the city centre—a notch less than evil, a counter displaying the fact that our society has become a calculating machine. Indeed the principle of the ‘lesser evil’ has become so prominently identified with the ethico-political foundations of liberal capitalism (and its political system that we like to call democracy) and so firmly naturalized in common speech that it seem to have become the ‘new good’. Commenting upon the comparative merits of democracy shortly after the end of World War II, Winston Churchill may have inaugurated this trend when he sardonically noted that ‘it has been said that democracy is the worst form of government except all those other forms that have been tried from time to time’. Since then, and increasingly since Soviet (and Third World) horrors began to be exposed a decade into the cold war, the projection of totalitarian horrors has been mobilized, beyond a frank concern for individual rights, to stop all search for a different form of politics. It was ultimately the mediated spectre of these atrocities that compelled the public to constantly weigh liberal disorder against the worse evils of totalitarian tyranny in favour of the former. In comparison to the horrors of totalitarianism, this inegalitarian and unjust regime was presented as a responsible ‘lesser evil’, ‘the best of all worlds possible’, and as a necessary barrier against regress to bloody dictatorships.1 This multifaceted political shift within the left was largely promoted by post-1968 western ‘radicals’ who switched the focus of their political engagement to criticizing left-totalitarian regimes across the second and third worlds, while arguing for the autonomy of civil society at home. The notions espoused by these largely French nouveaux philosophes—‘let’s hold on to what we have, because there is worse elsewhere’—demonstrated that for liberals ‘evil’ was always somewhere else, lurking behind any attempt at political transformation.2 Hannah Arendt, the thinker who has done most to analyze and compare the political systems of totalitarianism, and whose work The Origins of Totalitarianism was most often mobilized in relation to this ‘antitotalitarian’ shift in the left, saw the principle of the ‘lesser evil’ strongly at work, not only in the ‘making-do’ of liberal capitalism but in the way the totalitarian system tended to camouflage its radical actions from those yet to be initiated—the majority of bourgeois subjects needed to run things until a ‘new man’ was created. Writing about the collaboration and cooperation of ordinary Germans with the Nazi regime, mainly by those employed in the Civil Service (but also by the Jewish councils set up by the Nazis), she showed how the argument for the lesser evil has become one of the most important ‘mechanisms built into the machinery of terror and crimes’. She explained that ‘acceptance of lesser evils [has been] consciously used in conditioning government officials as well as the population at large to the acceptance of evil as such’, to the degree that ‘those who choose the lesser evil forget very quickly that they chose evil’.3 Against all those who stayed in Germany to make things better from within, against all acts of collaboration, especially those undertaken for the sake of the moderation of harm, against the argument that the ‘lesser evil’ of collaboration with brutal regimes is acceptable if it might prevent or divert greater evils, she called for individual disobedience and collective disorder. Participation, she insisted, communicated consent; moreover, it handed support to the oppressor. When nothing else was possible, to do nothing was the last effective form of resistance, and the practical consequences of refusal were nearly always better if enough people refused. In her essay ‘The Eggs Speak Up’, a sarcastic reference to Stalin’s dictum that ‘you can’t make an omelet without breaking a few eggs’, Arendt pleaded for ‘a radical negation of the whole concept of lesser evil in politics’.4 In Arendt’s writings the principle of the lesser evil is presented as a pragmatic compromise and frequent exception to ‘common ethics’, to the degree that it has become the most common justification for the very notion of exception. It is in this seemingly pragmatic approach that the principle of the lesser evil naturalizes crimes and other forms of injustice, acting as a main argument in the state’s regime of justification—people and regimes tend to invent retroactive explanations for atrocious actions. Furthermore, Arendt saw the calculation and measurement of goods and evils, like statistical trends in the social sciences, as diminishing the value of personal responsibility. Once ethics is seen in the form of an economy, when issues are put into numbers, they can be changed and turned around endlessly. And lastly, the terms of the lesser evil are most often posed by and from the point of view of power. Using a formulation she conceived with Mary McCarthy, Arendt explained: ‘If somebody points a gun at you and says, “Kill your friend or I will kill you”, he is tempting you, that is all’.5 It is important to note that when speaking about the political options available to people living in the postwar western states, Arendt was much less damning about the principle of the ‘lesser evil’. She implied that these options did include various forms of compromise and measure.6 In other words, she described the lesser evil as a false dilemma when faced with a totalitarian regime that itself has no concept of the lesser evil (totalitarians simply camouflage their acts as lesser evils), but as a part of the very structure of politics in the context of Cold War western democracies. Whether we accept them or not, the distinctions she implied point to a possible differend within the term, and could lead us to open up the concept further. The various historical and philosophical uses of the lesser evil idiom demonstrate that it meant different things to different people at different periods in different situations. There is a difference between masking an act of perpetration as a ‘lesser evil’, choosing the lesser of two evils and trying to make the world a little less evil while still pursuing a cause. *** I would like to divide the use of the idiom ‘lesser evil’ into two— particular and general. The particular case is presented to a person or to a group of people as a dilemma between two (or more) bad options in a given situation. The general case is the structuring principle in an economy of ethical calculations, manifested in attempts to reduce or lessen the bad and increase the good. Both cases affirm an economic model embedded at the heart of ethics according to which, in absence of the possibility to avoid all harm, various forms of misfortune must be calculated against each other (as if they were algorithms in a mathematical minimum problem), evaluated, and acted upon. The principle of the lesser evil implies that there is no way out of calculations. As a dilemma, the ‘lesser evil’ is presented as the necessity of a choice of action in situations where the available options are or seem to be limited. It is a dilemma in the classical Greek sense of the word —when each of the two options presented to the tragic hero necessarily lead to different forms of suffering. The dilemma implies a closed system in which the options presented for choice could not be questioned or negotiated. Regardless of what option is chosen, accepting the terms of the question leaves the (political) power that presented this ‘choice’ unchallenged and even reinforced. It is in accepting the parameters as given that the lesser evil argument is properly ideological. The dilemma, if we are still to think in its terms, should thus not only be about which of the bad options to choose, but whether to choose at all and thus accept the very terms of the question. When asked to choose between the two horns of an angry bull, Robert Pirsig suggested alternatives: one can ‘refuse to enter the arena’, ‘throw sand in the bull’s eyes’, or even ‘sing the bull to sleep’.7 The ‘Perpetrators of Lesser Evils’ The term ‘lesser evil’ has recently been prominently invoked in the context of attempts to moderate the excesses of western states, in particular in relation to attempts to govern the economics of violence in the context of the ‘War on Terror’, and in private organizations’ attempts to manoeuvre through the paradoxes and complicities of human rights action and humanitarian aid. More specifically, the lesser evil has been most often invoked at the very intersection of these two spheres of action—military and humanitarian. In relation to the ‘global War on Terror’, the terms of this argument were recently articulated in a book titled The Lesser Evil by human rights scholar and now deputy leader of the Liberal Party of Canada, Michael Ignatieff. In his book, Ignatieff suggests that liberal states should establish mechanisms to regulate the breach of some rights and allow their security services to engage in forms of extrajuridical violence— in his eyes, ‘lesser evils’—in order to fend off or minimize potential ‘greater evils’, such as further terror attacks on civilians of the western states. His conception of the lesser evil is presented as a balancing act because its flexible regime of exceptions should be regulated through a process of ‘adversarial scrutiny of an open democratic system’ and is thus also aimed to prevent the transformation, through the ‘temporary’ primacy given to the security services, of the liberal state into a totalitarian one.8 Ignatieff calls for the security officials of liberal democracies to become the ‘perpetrators of lesser evils’.9 These postmodern perpetrators (the lesser evil should surely replace the ‘banality of evil’ as the contemporary form of perpetration of crimes of state) should weigh various types of destructive measures in a utilitarian fashion, in relation not to the damage they produce but to the harm they purportedly prevent. The calculation, however, is obviously most often about the suffering of somebody else. Ignatieff’s conception of the ‘lesser evil’ is problematic even according to the utilitarian principles invoked. The very economy of violence assumes the possibility of less violent means and the risk of more violence, but questions of violence are forever unpredictable and undetermined. The supposed ‘lesser evil’ may always be more violent than the violence it opposes, and there can be no end to the challenges that stem from the impossibility of calculation.10 A less brutal measure is also one that can easily be naturalized, accepted and tolerated.11 When exceptional means are normalised, they can be more frequently applied. The purported military ability to perform ‘controlled’, ‘elegant’, ‘pinpoint accurate’, ‘discriminate’ killing could bring about more destruction and death than ‘traditional’ strategies did because these methods, combined with the manipulative and euphoric rhetoric used to promulgate them, induce decision makers to authorize their frequent and extended use. The illusion of precision, part of the state’s rhetoric of restraint, gives the military-political apparatus the necessary justification to use explosives in civilian environments where they cannot be used without injuring or killing civilians. This process, recalling Herbert Marcuse’s analysis of “repressive tolerance” may explain the way western democratic societies can maintain regimes of brutal military domination without this brutality affecting their self perception as enlightened liberals. Elevating, for example, targeted assassinations (Ignatieff considers targeted assassination to fall ‘within the effective moral-political framework of the lesser evil’)12 to a legally and morally acceptable standard makes them part of the state’s legal options, part of a list of counterterrorism techniques, with the result that all sense of horror at the act of murder is now lost. The lower the threshold of violence attributed to a certain means and the lower the threshold of horror implied in its use, the more frequent its application could become. Because they help normalise low- intensity conflict, the overall duration of this conflict could be extended and finally more lesser evils could be committed, with the result of the greater evil reached cumulatively.13 The Humanitarian Paradox of the Lesser Evil From this perspective it is possible to see that the discourse and practice of humanitarianism and human rights might paradoxically turn against the people it claims to help. When every soldier in what George W. Bush has called ‘the armies of compassion’ becomes a proxy expert in humanitarianism, humanitarian concerns could easily become a pretext to justify ‘neutrality’ with respect to a brutal conflict (as in Sarajevo) or an alibi for a political decision to mount a ‘military intervention’ against a sovereign state (as in Iraq). Beyond state agents, ‘the perpetrators of lesser evil’ must also include nonstate organizations. Putting an end to human rights violations has become, increasingly since the 1990s, the platform that allows for the possibility of collaboration between NGO activists and western militaries. Beyond the fact that the moralization of politics through the terms ‘freedom’, ‘human rights’ and ‘liberal democracy’ has led to a general depoliticization, the paradox is that human rights and humanitarian action can in fact aggravate the situation of the very people it purportedly comes to aid. The paradox of the lesser evil impacts most independent nongovernmental organizations that make up the various systems in the ecology of contemporary war and crisis zones, in addition to the military and the government. Lesser evil is the common justification of the military officer who attempts to administer life (and death) in an ‘enlightened’ manner; it is the brief of the security contractor who introduces new and more ‘efficient’ weapons and spatio-technological means of domination and advertises them as ‘humanitarian technology’. Lessening evil is moreover the logic defining the actions of the subjects of this regime, who, sometimes assisted by human rights organizations, lodge petitions challenging the brutality of these means and powers. Lesser evil is the argument of the humanitarian agent as he seeks military permission for providing life substances and medical help in places where it is in fact the duty of the military in control. This logic of the lesser evil somewhat obscures the fundamental moral differences between the various groups that compose the ecologies of conflict and crisis in allowing for the aforementioned moments of cooperation. Significantly, the western system of domination learned to use the work of local and international organizations to fill the void left by ‘dysfunctional’ Third World governments and manage life in their stead. Indeed, the urgent and important criticism that peace organizations often level at western militaries, to the effect that they de-humanise their enemies, masks another process by which the military incorporates into its operations the logic of, and even seeks to cooperate directly with, the very humanitarian and human rights organizations that in the past opposed it. At the core of the paradoxes of the lesser evil is a tactical compromise that could deteriorate into a structural impossibility—one that would entangle the state and its opposition in a mutual embrace, making nonstate organizations de facto participants in a diffused system of government. In Slavoj Zizek’s words, the state thus ‘externalizes its ethical self-consciousness in an extra-statal ethico- political agency, and this agency externalizes its claim to effectiveness in the state’.14 In this manner, human rights and humanitarian NGOs could do the ethical thinking and some of the ethical practice, while their state does the killing. The spatial order of contemporary military power does not only emerge from a series of open acts of aggression, but through attempts at the moderation and restraint of its own violence.15 Recently, western militaries began using the vocabulary of international law, with the effect that human rights principles such as ‘proportionality’ have become compatible with military goals such as ‘efficiency’.16 The Government of Evil (in Souls) The common use of the term ‘lesser evil’ masks a rich history and various intellectual trajectories. What may otherwise seem to be a perennial problem endemic to ethics and political practice, a dilemma that simply reappears at every period anew in the same shape and form, in fact reveals something peculiar about each historical moment and situation. The different trajectories of the term cast different shadows on the investigation of the lesser evil as one of the problems of the politics of the present. What follows is not a sustained history of the concept but rather several of its paradigmatic moments, the beginning of a possible archive of probes into the lesser evil argument. One of the trajectories of the concept of the lesser evil originated in early Christian theology and was secularized into the utilitarian foundations of liberal ethics. It formed the basis for the philosophy of ‘ethical realism’, differently formulated by George Kennan and Hans Morgenthau. Ethical realism traces its origins to St. Augustine and St. Thomas Aquinas and insists on some ethical constraints on states and military action. It sees the role of liberal states and especially that of the United States in the pursuit of moral goals such as ‘freedom’, ‘human rights’ and ‘democracy’. The destiny of the United States in particular and ‘the West’ in general is to fight radicalevil, whose traces could be found in any project predicated on an articulation of the idea of the ‘good’ (religious fundamentalism or communist egalitarianism). One component in the idea of the lesser evil, however, has gone missing in its secularization. For the Christian fathers the toleration of the lesser evil, as I will later show, should be understood in relation to the religious telos of salvation. The immanent management of evil on behalf of the church was conceived as part of a quest for perfection which forms a necessary stage on the way to transcendence—the replacement of the earthly kingdom with a heavenly one. Unlike the teachings of the Christian fathers, the liberal striving for perfection is not a quest for eventual transformation. Without transcendence it is locked within a perpetual economy of immanence and could be better interpreted as a drive for the ‘optimization’ of the existing system of government.17 *** The vast extraterritorial institutional network of the ecclesiastical pastorate—the Church as it was formed and institutionalized from around the turn of the fourth century—dealt with the problem of the lesser evil in the context of the practical and intellectual problem of ‘the government of souls’. In his lectures on the origins of governmentality Michel Foucault analyzed the Christian form of pastoral power. ‘Economical theology’ sought to understand the management of both human and divine orders, each with its immanent order of execution. In relation to human action the divine management of evil is both general and particular, bearing on both the individual and society, the multitude of people in the flock. The Christian order thus operated by simultaneously individualizing and collectivizing— granting as much value to a single person as to the community and the multitude.18 Salvation—deliverance from the power and penalty of sin and evil and the redemption of the soul—must address thus all and each. This form of salvation is one of the aspects of general and particular providence. The pastor must account not only for the well- being of individual and community but for the totality of good or evil they perform personally and collectively. Discussions of particular providence are organized around the question of choice, or of free choice—how to identify and pursue good and avoid evil. General providence, on the other hand, invokes a vastly complex intrapersonal economy of merits and faults—of sin, vice and virtue— operating according to specific rules of circulation and transfer, with complex procedures, analyses, calculations and tactics that allow the exercise of this very specific interplay between conflicting goods and degrees of evil.19 But Foucault does not explain how evil could be understood in terms of an economy. The source of this understanding is the teaching of St. Augustine. In early Christian theology evil is no longer seen as the equal opposite of good. In the course of his break from Manichaeism, St. Augustine stopped seeing evil as glamorously demonic but rather merely as ‘the absence of good’, a deficiency of being that has no standing by itself. Evil is relative and differential, an obstacle to perfection, that which stands between man and the good. Because evil is not absolute, demonic or perfect it is forever on a scale of less and more, lesser and greater. It is through this conception of evil that St. Augustine addressed the problem of the lesser evil. For Augustine, the lesser evil is not permissible, as it clearly violates the Pauline principle ‘do no evil that good may come’. It could however be tolerated in certain circumstances. For the lesser evil to be tolerated the situation has to be defined in such a way that a possible resultant evil outcome is a necessary and unavoidable consequence of the performance of individual and collective duties. In his economy of lesser and greater evils, it is better to tolerate prostitutes in society than to risk adultery, and it is better to kill an assailant before he may kill an innocent traveler.20 In this way the principle of the lesser evil is conflated with the concept of preemption, and Augustine’s rationale for preemption is one of justice. Even war could be just under certain conditions. Under the principles of just war, a war should be considered ‘just’ if those waging it do so with the intention of doing good or pursuing a just purpose (such as, centuries later, the crusades), or with a desire to reach peace rather than wage wars for one’s own gain or as an exercise of power. Furthermore, just wars must be waged by properly instituted authorities of organized arms. It is thus not coincidental that the discourse of the lesser evil developed at a time when the Christian church acquired real appetite and the real ability to exercise political and military power. Augustine, a fourth-century Christian, was teaching at the time Christianity had acquired the power to govern larger societies, and tried to reconcile Christian pacifism with the world of politics and the obligations of Roman citizens. Importantly, Augustine saw the lessening of evil as part of a general inclination to pursue the good and a quest for transformation. Unlike in the tradition of liberal ethics that invoked him, in Augustine’s teachings progress towards a lesser imperfection is not produced by or content with a lesser imperfection. Only the desire for perfection could destroy in the soul these aspects of the evil that defile it.21 This progress—the lessening of evil—is the only way towards perfection and the ultimate transformation of the kingdom from earth to heaven. The individual must strive for the kind of perfection that would put her closer to God, overreach the earthly and thereby help transform it. The general aspects of the problem of the lesser evil are also articulated in other theological discussions about the economic basis of divine government—the question of the origins and management of evil. It addressed the perennial question of theological philosophy: If God governs the world and if God’s economy is necessarily the most perfect one, how can we explain evil—natural catastrophe, illness, crimes? In the context of his investigation of economia, a form of governmental power, Giorgio Agamben discussed one of the first formulations of this question by Alexander of Aphrodisia, a late Aristotelian commentator of the second century: God in his providence establishes general laws which are always good, but evil results from these laws as a collateral side effect. For example: rain is obviously a good thing, but as a collateral effect of the rain there are floods. Collateral effects—the bad effects of the divine government—are thus not accidental, but define the very structure of the action of government. Furthermore, it is through these collateral effects that the divine government becomes effective. A millennium and a half later, in his Théodicée, Leibnitz attempted to resolve the same perennial question in a somewhat different manner. His intention is similarly to reconcile the apparent faults and imperfections in the world, which he does by claiming that the world is optimal among all possible worlds: ‘to show that an architect could have done better is to find fault with his work […] [if] a lesser evil is relatively good, so a lesser good is relatively evil’. Leibnitz unfolds a conception of God in the creation and management of the world as a mathematician who is solving a minimum problem in the calculus of variations. The world must be the best possible and most balanced world because it was created by a perfect God. God governs by determining and choosing, among an infinite number of possible worlds, that one for which the sum of necessary evil is at a minimum. In Leibnitz’s complex divine economy evil exists by definition at its minimum possible level. If evil is managed at its minimum level, then all evils are in fact always lesser evils. The statement that we live in ‘the best of all possible worlds’ was famously parodied by Voltaire in Candide when he has a Leibnitz-like character, Dr. Pangloss, repeat it like a mantra. A Calculating Machine for the Reduction of Evil Different aspects of the lesser evil argument were secularized into the modern articulations of ethics and politics. Foucault argued that it is on the basis of ‘economical theology’ that modern power—the government of men and things—has taken the form of an economy: ‘We pass from an art of governing whose principles were derived from the traditional virtues (wisdom, justice, liberality, respect for divine laws and human customs) […] to an art of governing that finds the principle of its rationality […] in the state’.22 He argued that from the end of the sixteenth century to the eighteenth century, the legacy of pastoral power was assimilated into the practice of government—a biopolitical form of power exercised upon a population to regulate and manage its health, felicity, reproducibility and productivity, while the pastoral power over the individual—particular providence—has evolved into disciplinary technology that subjectivises the individual in various institutions and buildings: the prison, the military barracks, the school, and the hospital. Continuing Foucault’s work on governmentality and discipline and directly reflecting on the question of the lesser evil, the philosopher Adi Ophir has shown how the panopticon, beyond being a mechanism of discipline, control and subjectivisation, could also be interpreted as a closed system for the management and reduction of evils.23 Here it is necessary to mention that Bentham no longer saw good and evil as metaphysical categories, but rather as the sum total of good and bad things. He defined the task of government as minimising the bad things and maximising the good ones. This economy is at the centre of ‘the principle of utility’. The general aspect of the lesser evil argument is thus one of the forms by which the ‘greater good’ expresses itself. The panopticon, a closed system that regulates everything that flows in and out of it, is according to Ophir a mechanism whose purpose is to make the calculation (a kind of proto-computer?) and reduction of evils possible.24 The panopticon is designed to bring to perfection the consequences of every action undertaken within it. The observation and control of individual actions that the panopticon produces is the very condition that makes the calculus possible. The system is constructed in such a way that however much evil is put in, ‘less evil’ is guaranteed to come out. Although the machine produces collateral evil—and Bentham is clear that both punishment itself and the friction the machine produces are evil—it guarantees, so Bentham tried to convince his contemporary politicians, the reduction of these evils and of the pain of the treatment to the necessary minimum. Ophir thus interprets Bentham’s panopticon as a Perpetuum Mobile of utility, a precurser to a panoptical society that has in itself now become a machine for the calculation and reduction of evils; the very diagram of biomorality (the necessary counterpart to biopolitics) which is focused on the increase of happiness and the reduction of suffering.25 The Road to Utopia is Paved with Lesser Evils Lesser evil arguments are not only articulated from the point of view of Power but also in relation to attempts to subvert and replace it. An interesting example is provided in the discussion about the shortening of the working day in Marx’s Capital. Unlike the revolutionary and militant communists who protested the drift towards a timid, reformist politics of choosing the lesser evil, of making the kind of compromises with capital that may divert the struggle from the absolute ideal of communism, Marx thought that the winning of the ten- hour day was a huge victory for the English proletariat. The ten-hour working day reduces the duration of evil, but ‘normalises’ and regularises exploitation. According to Marx, on the other hand, a ten- hour day allowed fourteen hours of non-work, in which ‘the laborer can satisfy his intellectual and social wants’ and which would allow the proletarians to organize and continue fighting. Marx’s argument was that this lesser evil gives the proletarians the space to build an organizational platform, the consciousness and experience needed to take over the means of production. It created the productive forces capable of generating a sufficient surplus to enable socialism and the proletariat to continue fighting and build something better.26 His ultimate aim was still of course to abolish the state. But advanced capitalism was not only seen as a lesser evil compared to ‘primitive manufacture’, it was also a transformation that made a better world possible. Marx saw the struggle for the shortening working day as one corridor, potentially opening into future struggles: ‘the limitation of the working-day is a preliminary condition without which all further attempts at improvement and emancipation must prove abortive’. 27 Paradoxically, as we now know, the greatest expansion of British industry occurred after the deal for the normalisation of the working day. Similarly, at different times, Lenin, Kautski, Luxemburg, Trotsky (!) and Gramsci grappled with the problem of fighting for compromised gains here and now on the one hand while also fighting for a better world on the other. At various points they stood for tactical struggles for immediate gains, advocating trade unions, whose function was to win a better deal for workers in an exploitative system; but none of them thought that trade unions were all that was possible, and none of them were satisfied with simply winning a better deal in this exploitative system. Tensions between evolutionary and revolutionary Marxism were articulated differently in relation to different historical moments: throughout his World War I polemics against the social patriots, Lenin emphasized the difference between various periods and trends: [U]nlike yesterday, the struggle for socialist power is on the order of the day in Europe. The socialist working class is on the scene as a contender for power itself. This means: There may still be ‘lesser’ and ‘greater’ evils (there always will be) but we do not have to choose between these evils, for we represent the alternative to both of them, an alternative which is historically ripe. Moreover, under conditions of imperialism, only this revolutionary alternative offers any really progressive way out, offers any possibility of an outcome which is no evil at all. Both war camps offer only reactionary consequences, to a ‘lesser’ or ‘greater’ degree.28 The debate articulated by Marxists in different periods was about how political transformation should be brought about: in an evolutionary fashion—a step by step approach along a trajectory of improvement (a kind of Darwinian evolution by which the reign of the proletarians is a historical necessity)—or rather in a revolutionary manner, with a fast and decisive break with the past. In other words, Marxists in various periods asked whether change arrive through the reduction of pain – do things become gradually better until they become good, with the danger that with the reduction of pain society should become content and complicit? (In which case pain should be seen as a self- disciplining device). At one of the ends of the spectrum in which the lesser evil argument occupies the middle are the utopian absolutists who believe that every possible gain at present is insignificant in light of the essentially compromised state of the world. Part of the structure of this argument is found the principle of the politique du pire—the politics of making things worse in order to hasten political change—or the theory of dolorism, which sees pain as a spiritual experience that allows people to see reality more clearly. The danger was of course that things simply get worse and worse. In fact Marxists used these approaches alternately, in a tactical manner, in different periods and situations. The lesser evil argument was articulated in another way by Herbert Marcuse in the context of discussions regarding the Marxist attitude to the danger of fascism: Compared with a neo-fascist society, defined in terms of a ‘suspension’ of civil rights and liberties, suppression of all opposition, militarization and totalitarian manipulation of the people, bourgeois democracy, even in its monopolistic form, still provides a chance (the last chance?) for the transition to socialism, for the education (in theory and practice) and organization to prepare this transition. The New Left is therefore faced with the task of defending this democracy? Defend it as the lesser evil: lesser than suicide and suppression. And it is faced with the task of defending this democracy while attacking its capitalist foundations.29 Marcuse saw bourgeois democracy, with its freedom of speech and association, with space for self-organization (of, for example, workers and women) as a lesser evil to dictatorship in as such but also inasmuch as it would provide a real opportunity for its subversion and eventual transformation. ‘Defending democracy while attacking its capitalist foundations’ is an articulation of a necessary paradox: could one simultaneously defend democracy in its liberal form against the encroaching evil of fascism, all the while attacking its foundations? *** The problem articulated by Marcuse are somewhat relevant to the political predicaments pertaining to different kinds of contemporary non governmental activists: being intransigently in opposition to the neoliberal global order and market hegemony, for example, while, at the same time using their (infra)structures, and even momentarily cooperating with their institutions. Negotiating this paradox—and ‘negotiation’ could only merit its name if it seeks to bring together incompatible positions— must be the most important challenge to these contemporary activists. How to engage in practiced of “lesser evil”, but seek to mobilize the effect of these actions in the service of larger political claims; how to work from “inside” systems while simultaneously seeing beyond them, even precipitating their end? Obviously, the argument that the principle of the lesser evil is dangerous because it may produce more harm is a contradiction as blatant as saying that it is a lesser evil to avoid the lesser evil argument.30 I am also not suggesting that the horrific spectacles of ‘greater evils’ should be preferred to the incremental damage of ‘lesser’ ones, that the violence of the present conflicts should be made (even) more brutal in order to shock a complacent population into mobilizing resistance (the threshold of the “intolerable” is elastic enough to make most people easily accommodate and domesticate a sense of an ever worsening reality); rather, that opposition and resistance must dare to think beyond the economy and the calculations of violence and suffering that liberal ethics touts forward. Dealing with the political ethics of the lesser evil could be articulated by bypassing the closed economy that a particular “dilemma” presents with an insistence on the expansion of the limits of the problem in both space and time – the former by seeking to identify more extended and intricate political connections leading to the issue at stake and the latter by looking further into the future. More about the predicament of contemporary non governmental organizations I hope to articulate in later versions of this text. The installation 665/The Lesser Evil in Manifesta7 seeks to start unpacking this problem by presenting some of the histories and contemporary tactics of such attempts and the humanitarian and human rights activists caught up in dilemmas and struggling, successfully or not, to liberate themselves from a mutual embrace with the very organizations they vehemently oppose. Many of these activists clearly realize that it is counterproductive to accept the myopic pragmatism of the lesser evil, one that leaves a given mode of government intact, and seek ways to go beyond these actions. Their contemporary deliberations reflect historical ones. Strategically planned or spontaneous action would always inevitably put activists on the ground within an arena of political struggles in compromising situations that can easily deteriorate into a counterproductive complicity, but these forms of practice must look for ways to, simultaneously and paradoxically, challenge the truth claims and thus the basis of the authority of the powers they both cooperate with and confront – the very regimes that placed their bulls before us and then asked us to choose the lesser of their two horns. This text originates in discussions around an ongoing programme of workshops, lectures and films exploring the structure of the lesser evil argument that I run together with Thomas Keenan and Eyal Sivan. I would like to thank Alberto Toscano for his useful comments. Notes 1. Alain Badiou has been the strongest critic of this notion: ‘If the lamentable state in which we find ourselves is nonetheless the best of all real states […] [If humanity] will not find anything better than currently existing parliamentary states, and the forms of consciousness associated with them, this simply proves that up to now the political history of men has only given birth to restricted innovations and we are but characters in a pre-historic situation […] [that] will not rank much higher than ants and elephants’. See Alain Badiou, ‘Eight Theses on the Universal’, in Theoretical Writings, ed. and trans. Ray Brassier and Alberto Toscano (London: Continuum, 2004), 237. Renata Salecl introduced Badiou’s work to the discussion in a workshop titled ‘Lesser Evils’ organized by Thomas Keenan, Eyal Sivan and myself at Bard College in February 2008. Presentations were given by the organizers and by Adi Ophir, Ariella Azoulay, Simon Critchley, Joshua Simon, Olivia Custer, Renata Salecl, Karen Sullivan and Roger Berkowitz. Salecl introduced Badiou’s ideas through a reading of an interview in two parts Badiou gave to Cabinet Magazine before and after 9/11 (http://www.cabinetmagazine.org/issues/5/alainbadiou.php). Salecl added new doubts of her own: ‘not even knowing what good and evil are, how can we choose and calculate? When evil is so enjoyable, what does ’lesser evil‘ mean?’ 2. For Badiou, according to Salecl, evil is when one lacks the strength to search for the good. The politics of the lesser evil give up on the event, renounce the drive. At the Bard workshop, she asked: ‘Is there a new theory of the good ready to fight the self-contents of liberalism?’ 3. Hannah Arendt, Responsibility and Judgment (New York: Schocken, 2005), 35. In his presentation to the workshop, Roger Berkowitz presented Arendt’s argument against the ‘lesser evil’ in the context of her thought on judgment, as part of what she identified as ‘the crisis of judgment’. 4. Hannah Arendt, ‘The Eggs Speak Up’ (1950), in Essays in Understanding, 1930–1954: Formation, Exile, and Totalitarianism, ed. Jerome Kohn (New York: Schocken, 2005), 270–284; see especially 271. Arendt claims that Stalin’s ‘only original contribution’ to socialism was to transform the breaking of eggs from a tragic necessity into a revolutionary virtue. 5. Hannah Arendt, Responsibility and Judgment (New York: Schocken, 2005), 37. (I think)<> sorry no – can we remove the note? 6. In an article on segregation in southern schools, after making her readers understand she was against all forms of racism, she voiced scepticism about federally enforced integration, claiming it politicized the educational system, which she believed should be immune to such forces, and insisting that the survival of the Republic may require that the battle line be drawn somewhere else. Hannah Arendt, ‘Reflections on Little Rock’, Dissent 6, no. 1 (1959): 45–56. 7. Robert Pirsig, Zen and the Art of Motorcycle Maintenance (New York: Bantam, 1974). 8. Michael Ignatieff, The Lesser Evil: Political Ethics in an Age of Terror (Princeton: Princeton University Press, 2004). 9. Ibid., 152. 10. In the Lesser Evils workshop at Bard, reading Ignatieff’s book, Thomas Keenan pointed to the impossibility of calculating evils. Rejecting the notion of grades of violence, he used a Derridean formulation when he argued: ‘is not the slightest violence always already the greatest violence?’ He pointed as well to the fallacy in the supposed difference between qualitative and quantitative judgment on evil, asking whether the quantitative cannot cross a threshold and become qualitative itself. 11. Adi Ophir, The Order of Evils, section 7.100 as well as 7.2 and 7.3. See for example 7.335. 12. This under the following conditions: that they are ‘applied to the smallest number of people, used as a last resort, and kept under the adversarial scrutiny of an open democratic system’. Furthermore, ‘assassination can be justified only if […] less violent alternatives, like arrest and capture, endanger […] personnel or civilians are not possible, and] where all reasonable precautions are taken to minimize collateral damage and civilian harm’. Ignatieff, The Lesser Evil, 8, 129–133. 13. It is this principle that guarantees, paradoxically, that all ‘greater goods’ could necessarily become ‘greater evils’. Health economists have a chilling and interesting version of this economy of calculations, a ‘value of statistical life’, or VSL, to cope with what some of its proponents see as the following conundrum: the ‘prevention of every possible accidental death would be intolerably costly in terms of both money and the quality of life’. See Nina Power and Alberto Toscano, ‘The Philosophy of Restoration: Alain Badiou and the Enemies of May’, forthcoming in Boundary 2. 14. Slavoj Zizek, In Defence of Lost Causes (London: Verso, 2008), 349. 15. Michel Feher, ‘The Governed in Politics’, in Nongovernmental Politics, ed. Michel Feher (New York: Zone, 2007), 12–27, esp. 21. 16. David Kennedy, The Dark Sides of Virtue: Reassessing International Humanitarianism (Princeton: Princeton University Press, 2004), 235– 323, esp. 295. 17. Anatol Lieven and John Hulsman, Ethical Realism: A Vision for America’s Role in the World (New York: Pantheon Books, 2006). 18. Michel Foucault, Security, Territory, Population: Lectures at the College de France 1977–1978, ed. Arnold I. Davidson, trans. Graham Burchell (London: Palgrave Macmillan, 2007), 164–173. The immanent disorder exercised by the pastorate was ‘an art of conducting, directing, leading, guiding, taking in hand, and manipulating men, an art of monitoring them and arranging them…an art of taking charge of men collectively and individually throughout their life and at every moment of their existence’ (173). 19. Foucault, Security, Territory, Population. 20. Augustine thought that prostitutes should be tolerated ‘because they fulfil a similar function in society to that of the cesspool in the palace’. Speaking through Evodius, Augustine says: ‘It is much more suitable that the man who attacks the life of another should be slain than he who defends his own life; and it is much more cruel that a man should suffer violation than that the violator should be slain by his intended victim’ (118, De lib. arb. I.v.12)<>. In her presentation for the Lesser Evils workshop at Bard, Karen Sullivan presented Augustine’s teachings against lying as one of the only cases in which a compromise for the lesser evil is not even possible. ‘A lie is an offence against truth, perversion of speech’, and the imperative against it should in no case be breached, even to save innocent people. Having such universal effect, lying is worse than killing; the latter is tolerated under certain conditions of the lesser evil principle. 21. Simone Weil, Oppression and Liberty (Florence, KY: Routledge, 2001), quoted in Peter Paik Yoonsuk, ‘The Pessimist Rearmed: Zizek On Christianity And Revolution’, Theory & Event 8, no. 2 (2005). Karen Sullivan made a similar point in her discussion of Augustine. 22. Foucault, Security, Territory, Population, 163, 183. 23. Adi Ophir in the Lesser Evils workshop at Bard. 24. Bentham’s preface to the Panopticon opens with a list of the benefits to be obtained from this inspection house: ‘Morals reformed— health preserved—industry invigorated—instruction diffused—public burthens lightened—economy seated […] all by a simple idea of architecture’. 25. Bentham believed the panopticon could correct itself instantly. Ophir to the contrary observed that ‘closed systems which are run by imperfect agents and in which the costs of exit are high tend to produce greater rather than lesser evils…’ The term biomorality comes from Zizek, In Defence, 50. 26. Engels argues for the positive effect of the deal for the ten-hour day on completely different grounds: ‘Were the Ten Hour Day Bill a final measure, England would be ruined, but because it necessarily involves the passing of subsequent measures, which must lead England into a path quite different from that she has traveled up till now, it will mean progress’. If English industry were to succumb to foreign competition the revolution would be unavoidable. 27. Karl Marx, Capital, http://www.bibliomania.com/2/1/261/1294/frameset.html . See ‘The Working Day’, especially sections 6 and 7. 28. Hal Draper, ‘The Myth of Lenin’s “Revolutionary Defeatism”’, http://www.marxists.org/archive/draper/1953/defeat/chap1.htm . 29. Herbert Marcuse, Towards a Critical Theory of Society, vol. 2 (Florence, KY: Routledge, 2001), 169. Joshua Simon’s contribution to the Lesser Evils workshop at Bard was a reading of Marx’s Eighteenth Brumaire of Louis Bonaparte, where he made similar points about Marxism’s relation to Fascism. 30. In the Bard workshop, Adi Ophir compared this to Bentham’s own statement: ‘“The principle of utility, (I have heard it said) is a dangerous principle: it is dangerous on certain occasions to consult it.” This is as much as to say, what? that it is not consonant to utility, to consult utility: in short, that it is not consulting it, to consult it’. Jeremy Bentham, An Introduction to the Principles of Morals and Legislation (1789), ch. 1, ‘Of The Principle Of Utility’. 31. Feher, Nongovernmental Politics<>, 21. From monica at sarai.net Thu Apr 16 17:38:57 2009 From: monica at sarai.net (Monica Narula) Date: Thu, 16 Apr 2009 17:38:57 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Please, No Party Political Campaigns on the Reader List Message-ID: <31207ADF-E451-48D2-9351-D1A6E2DBB0D9@sarai.net> Dear List Members, Please refrain from posting propaganda material, advertising or campaign literature to do with the forthcoming elections in India. Such material may be quoted if you wish to analyse or discuss an issue, but blanket, unqualified, forwards and posts of election campaign material, or endorsements of election candidates will clog this list with election campaign spam. Also, please take care to see that your signatures do not come tagged with election campaign slogans. This is not desirable for the health of the list. There are enough fora on the internet for political parties and candidates to campaign on. The Reader List is not one of them. While the election may be discussed and analysed here, please ensure that this freedom is not abused as a license for conducting an election campaign on this list. All list members are advised to follow these guidelines. Failure to do so may result in such posts being withheld. best Monica (List Administrator) Monica Narula Raqs Media Collective Sarai-CSDS www.raqsmediacollective.net www.sarai.net From alinamal2009 at gmail.com Thu Apr 16 17:44:14 2009 From: alinamal2009 at gmail.com (Alina MediaArtLab) Date: Thu, 16 Apr 2009 16:14:14 +0400 Subject: [Reader-list] CALL FOR ENTRIES!!!X Media Forum in the frames of Moscow International Film Festival Message-ID: <58e659f0904160514r7855fea4y5b001f5383184cbe@mail.gmail.com> The hole media spectrum: cinema extension! MediaArtLab Centre for Culture has started to receive requests for taking part in Media Forum 2009. It will be held in the frame of 31 Moscow International Film Festival from 23 to 28 of June. This is the 10 years Media Forum exists. The objective of Media Forum is to demonstrate the connection between traditional and modern branches of screen culture, the impact of technological innovations on visual arts. We hope that you will be interested to learn more about Media Forum 2009 here http://mediaforum.mediaartlab.ru/en/ From sub_sengupta at yahoo.co.in Thu Apr 16 17:51:40 2009 From: sub_sengupta at yahoo.co.in (subhrodip sengupta) Date: Thu, 16 Apr 2009 17:51:40 +0530 (IST) Subject: [Reader-list] to be read in evening with snack imagery for voters Message-ID: <577357.4973.qm@web94702.mail.in2.yahoo.com> Friends at this time in evening i suppose you are having coffee. In front of you is a computer and your imagination can now alianate you. Think of a relaxing Sunday. On a relaxing sofa you your wife and best friend. A mirror is in front of you. You løok fresh and happy even in this dress of yours. Turn your neck. See your wife and friend they are naked, Stark! Haha haha mein aakashwani hoon aur aapka . . . Aftereffects? Quickly mirror is reality and you on computer at present as opposed to wife and friend alienated at a distance. This is unimaginable but There would be an operator alienated viewing peel off images like this and they are no more pure or educated than you are and worst they are official. Strip searching systems had been proposed earlier and may be implemented confirmed in Us at a distance. It could happen to anybody surely Vips. Surveillance and privacy have their own limits. Do we have the right to present our own selves or do we even want to is question. Uncle says i must give and i do give a solution revealed preference assumptions holding since privacy has been shown to be highly necessary. If you stand up against or if you hide naked and branded in the queue. Cricket on your mind? Visit the ultimate cricket website. Enter http://beta.cricket.yahoo.com From sub_sengupta at yahoo.co.in Thu Apr 16 17:55:26 2009 From: sub_sengupta at yahoo.co.in (subhrodip sengupta) Date: Thu, 16 Apr 2009 17:55:26 +0530 (IST) Subject: [Reader-list] to be read in evening with snack imagery for voters In-Reply-To: <577357.4973.qm@web94702.mail.in2.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <180382.4663.qm@web94707.mail.in2.yahoo.com> Hey comments and analysis welcome and if possible try and make a video presentation well put rest on wiki link subhrodip sengupta wrote: > Friends at this time in evening i suppose you are having coffee. In front of you is a computer and your imagination can now alianate you. Think of a relaxing Sunday. On a relaxing sofa you your wife and best friend. A mirror is in front of you. You løok fresh and happy even in this dress of yours. Turn your neck. See your wife and friend > they are naked, Stark! > Haha haha mein aakashwani hoon aur aapka . . . Aftereffects? Quickly mirror is reality and you on computer at present as opposed to wife and friend alienated at a distance. This is unimaginable but There would be an operator alienated viewing peel off images like this and they are no more pure or educated than you are and worst they are official. Strip searching systems had been proposed earlier and may be implemented confirmed in Us at a distance. It could happen to anybody surely Vips. Surveillance and privacy have their own limits. Do we have the right to present our own selves or do we even want to is question. Uncle says i must give and i do give a solution revealed preference assumptions holding since privacy has been shown to be highly necessary. If you stand up against or if you hide naked and branded in the queue. > Cricket on your mind? Visit the ultimate cricket website. Enter http://beta.cricket.yahoo.com > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with subscribe in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> Add more friends to your messenger and enjoy! Go to http://messenger.yahoo.com/invite/ From sub_sengupta at yahoo.co.in Thu Apr 16 17:57:16 2009 From: sub_sengupta at yahoo.co.in (subhrodip sengupta) Date: Thu, 16 Apr 2009 17:57:16 +0530 (IST) Subject: [Reader-list] to be read in evening with snack imagery for voters In-Reply-To: <577357.4973.qm@web94702.mail.in2.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <624208.56258.qm@web94716.mail.in2.yahoo.com> Hey comments and analysis welcome and if possible try and make a video presentation well put rest on wiki link subhrodip sengupta wrote: > Friends at this time in evening i suppose you are having coffee. In front of you is a computer and your imagination can now alianate you. Think of a relaxing Sunday. On a relaxing sofa you your wife and best friend. A mirror is in front of you. You løok fresh and happy even in this dress of yours. Turn your neck. See your wife and friend > they are naked, Stark! > Haha haha mein aakashwani hoon aur aapka . . . Aftereffects? Quickly mirror is reality and you on computer at present as opposed to wife and friend alienated at a distance. This is unimaginable but There would be an operator alienated viewing peel off images like this and they are no more pure or educated than you are and worst they are official. Strip searching systems had been proposed earlier and may be implemented confirmed in Us at a distance. It could happen to anybody surely Vips. Surveillance and privacy have their own limits. Do we have the right to present our own selves or do we even want to is question. Uncle says i must give and i do give a solution revealed preference assumptions holding since privacy has been shown to be highly necessary. If you stand up against or if you hide naked and branded in the queue. > Cricket on your mind? Visit the ultimate cricket website. Enter http://beta.cricket.yahoo.com > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with subscribe in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> Add more friends to your messenger and enjoy! Go to http://messenger.yahoo.com/invite/ From sub_sengupta at yahoo.co.in Thu Apr 16 17:52:47 2009 From: sub_sengupta at yahoo.co.in (subhrodip sengupta) Date: Thu, 16 Apr 2009 17:52:47 +0530 (IST) Subject: [Reader-list] to be read in evening with snack imagery for voters Message-ID: <696655.26389.qm@web94701.mail.in2.yahoo.com> Friends at this time in evening i suppose you are having coffee. In front of you is a computer and your imagination can now alianate you. Think of a relaxing Sunday. On a relaxing sofa you your wife and best friend. A mirror is in front of you. You løok fresh and happy even in this dress of yours. Turn your neck. See your wife and friend they are naked, Stark! Haha haha mein aakashwani hoon aur aapka . . . Aftereffects? Quickly mirror is reality and you on computer at present as opposed to wife and friend alienated at a distance. This is unimaginable but There would be an operator alienated viewing peel off images like this and they are no more pure or educated than you are and worst they are official. Strip searching systems had been proposed earlier and may be implemented confirmed in Us at a distance. It could happen to anybody surely Vips. Surveillance and privacy have their own limits. Do we have the right to present our own selves or do we even want to is question. Uncle says i must give and i do give a solution revealed preference assumptions holding since privacy has been shown to be highly necessary. If you stand up against or if you hide naked and branded in the queue. Add more friends to your messenger and enjoy! Go to http://messenger.yahoo.com/invite/ From sub_sengupta at yahoo.co.in Thu Apr 16 17:58:50 2009 From: sub_sengupta at yahoo.co.in (subhrodip sengupta) Date: Thu, 16 Apr 2009 17:58:50 +0530 (IST) Subject: [Reader-list] to be read in evening with snack imagery for voters In-Reply-To: <577357.4973.qm@web94702.mail.in2.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <499438.88404.qm@web94704.mail.in2.yahoo.com> Hey comments and analysis welcome and if possible try and make a video presentation well put rest on wiki link subhrodip sengupta wrote: > Friends at this time in evening i suppose you are having coffee. In front of you is a computer and your imagination can now alianate you. Think of a relaxing Sunday. On a relaxing sofa you your wife and best friend. A mirror is in front of you. You løok fresh and happy even in this dress of yours. Turn your neck. See your wife and friend > they are naked, Stark! > Haha haha mein aakashwani hoon aur aapka . . . Aftereffects? Quickly mirror is reality and you on computer at present as opposed to wife and friend alienated at a distance. This is unimaginable but There would be an operator alienated viewing peel off images like this and they are no more pure or educated than you are and worst they are official. Strip searching systems had been proposed earlier and may be implemented confirmed in Us at a distance. It could happen to anybody surely Vips. Surveillance and privacy have their own limits. Do we have the right to present our own selves or do we even want to is question. Uncle says i must give and i do give a solution revealed preference assumptions holding since privacy has been shown to be highly necessary. If you stand up against or if you hide naked and branded in the queue. > Cricket on your mind? Visit the ultimate cricket website. Enter http://beta.cricket.yahoo.com > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with subscribe in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> Connect with friends all over the world. Get Yahoo! India Messenger at http://in.messenger.yahoo.com/?wm=n/ From aliens at dataone.in Thu Apr 16 18:25:29 2009 From: aliens at dataone.in (bipin) Date: Thu, 16 Apr 2009 18:25:29 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] A Modest Appeal to Election Propagandists References: <6b79f1a70904151050i26c49d8dw27120a6520e04ba1@mail.gmail.com> <2F94A86F-611C-4EE0-A9A4-9DD953E858D7@sarai.net> <6b79f1a70904152013v15d69a70oc44cb086fe2d26ca@mail.gmail.com> <6353c690904160112x7fe5e537t255672250e5b4b9a@mail.gmail.com> <005a01c9be7b$3a5d7cf0$0201a8c0@limo> Message-ID: <00b301c9be92$9f99a8c0$0201a8c0@limo> Dear All, Who says Muslims are harassed from 1000 years. On the contrary they have ruled over India and Hindu remain poor and slave during Muslim and British rule. Now Muslims are poor for their own reason and don't want to come out of their fence, don't want to amalgamate with Indian like Parsi did and don't want to develop themselves. They are having much more children and could not able to take care of them upto the standard and remain poor. Due to more children, they are unable to give proper education, personalize care and remain backward in humanity also. Those who comes out of their fence are definitely came up and living their healthy life. You will find many such Muslims not only in city even in the villages. For all these if you can make survey, I am sure you will find that they are having small family of maximum 2 or 3 children and one wife. There leader or mullah wants that they remain backward for their own selfish reason to remain in power. However, the things are getting change now and Muslims or even other poor people coming out of their leaders' trap and lauding their own voice. This is good sign and you will see the change in about one decade positively. Your point for Muslims like sentencing to death, raping of woman, deprived of right to vote are foolish. Death sentence was given by court after passing several processes. Such punishment not imposed overnight and it is not only for Muslim but all the community. Raping of woman is applicable to all community, why separating Muslims for this. By this sentence don't misunderstood that I am favoring rape. It was misunderstood earlier. Who deprived them from voting? Since independence they are voting on mass basis even more than other community. Might be some illegal migrant will be there in your mind for depriving from voting!!! Actually the people like you by such foolish argument separating Muslim community from whole India. If Muslims are ready to apply Uniform Civil Code will be benefited to them only for their upliftment. Don't say that I am speaking BJP language, this is my personal view since long even before BJP. Development of Nation means inclusive growth for all and that is only possible if you make root based development. Since years, we have tried subsidy based development, but what was outcome of it? Nothing. As I say real infrastructural development started before few years and if it will continue, you can see the result. I never said what happened in the past (Nehru, Indira, Rajiv, Advani, Modi and others, list will be much larger) are right. But, today who ever make real development must be appreciated and put forward. Whoever, it may be. Now, time has come to govern the country by efficient, dynamic and knowledgeable persons irrespective of him/her being a politician or non-politician. There is no question of praising Atalji because he is in BJP, but he did some real developmental work during his tenure. I am sure if Manmohansingh would have free hand without coalition compulsion would have done much better work. When the development takes place, it is for everyone and does not have any label for only Hindu and not for Muslim. Root based development reaches to all for which I am insisting always, while schemes kept in mind for particular section have their limitations. Also, in our corrupted country it will have very remote benefits. For any of the above point if I am wrong, I invite all the members to point me out. thanks Bipin ----- Original Message ----- From: Rakesh Iyer To: bipin Cc: Aditya Raj Kaul ; sarai-list Sent: Thursday, April 16, 2009 4:02 PM Subject: Re: [Reader-list] A Modest Appeal to Election Propagandists Dear all I think simply advertising is not what this site is meant for. And as for Aditya, Pawan, Bipin and others, everybody here, I would like to ask something: You all have been cribbing that Muslims did this and that in the last 1,000 years ago. And they continue to do some other things as well, all of which are wrong. You also say that secularists are trying to save these Muslims and disturbing Hindus as well. What do you want: Muslims to be punished for their alleged atrocities for the past 1,000 years (by killing them, sentencing to death, raping their women or something else), or be subjected to economic hardships for this, or be deprived of right to vote, or something else? Do you wish that secularists should be also sentenced to any of these? Or both of them? What is your conception of the nation? What is meant in your terms by development of the nation? You put up articles supporting the right-wing stand. You always argue indirectly or directly that the BJP is in some way right, or the issues they raised at least are right. You even point out that Kashmiri Muslims have done this or that, Godhra has happened etc. What is your conception of Indian Muslims? And what are you against? Indian Muslims? Secularism? Congress? Left? Something else? And what are you for? Sangh Parivar? BJP? or Right Wing ideology? So-called Genuine secularism? Something else? Instead of advertising Vajpayee and supporting him, better speak about your own views to begin with. As for Vajpayee, we all know how he was sacked by the Indian public from power and what was the result of his India Shining campaign. And yes, for all my answers to questions I have raised I would write another mail, but only after some time. Please do bear with me for that. Regards Rakesh From rakesh.rnbdj at gmail.com Thu Apr 16 18:27:57 2009 From: rakesh.rnbdj at gmail.com (Rakesh Iyer) Date: Thu, 16 Apr 2009 18:27:57 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] A Modest Appeal to Election Propagandists In-Reply-To: <00b301c9be92$9f99a8c0$0201a8c0@limo> References: <6b79f1a70904151050i26c49d8dw27120a6520e04ba1@mail.gmail.com> <2F94A86F-611C-4EE0-A9A4-9DD953E858D7@sarai.net> <6b79f1a70904152013v15d69a70oc44cb086fe2d26ca@mail.gmail.com> <6353c690904160112x7fe5e537t255672250e5b4b9a@mail.gmail.com> <005a01c9be7b$3a5d7cf0$0201a8c0@limo> <00b301c9be92$9f99a8c0$0201a8c0@limo> Message-ID: Dear Bipin jee I never said Muslims have faced atrocities for the past 1000 years. Infact, I asked whether you believed in that or not. As for my own conception, I shall post that today hopefully before 9 pm. Don't worry. Regards Rakesh From kshmendra2005 at yahoo.com Thu Apr 16 18:32:23 2009 From: kshmendra2005 at yahoo.com (Kshmendra Kaul) Date: Thu, 16 Apr 2009 06:02:23 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Reader-list] TIMEBOOK In-Reply-To: <2F6A4CDA-57C7-472A-9928-C8F0225FF141@sarai.net> Message-ID: <881753.63268.qm@web57208.mail.re3.yahoo.com> The visitor to the Art Gallery could not make head or tail of what was on display. Nor determine the position of either.   Not wanting to appear foolish, he gazed studiously at each piece. He himself became a standing Rodin piece, deep in thought, fingers strategically placed under chin, on cheek-bone and across his lips, anchoring the up-tilt of his head. That also helped him from nodding off.   Every now and then, he turned his eyes into slits, keenly peering through them as his head described the slightest of arcs in the air. Reverberating 'Hmmmmnnns' punctuated the dance.   Then abruptly he hissed out a more than loud "Interesting", turned and walked off.   The artist chastised the gallery attendant for not inviting the visitor to record his comments in the Guest Book     --- On Thu, 4/16/09, Monica Narula wrote: From: Monica Narula Subject: [Reader-list] TIMEBOOK To: reader-list at sarai.net Date: Thursday, April 16, 2009, 4:21 PM Timebook by Raqs Media Collective Timebook is a vade mecum without words, a guide for all those perplexed by the way that the ground constantly shifts beneath their feet. It may be consulted by opening at random, and by reading the patterns made by heat and time as signs with which to navigate the elusive present. http://www.onestarpress.com/Time-Book The book is best "read" in double page PDF view. Monica Narula Raqs Media Collective Sarai-CSDS www.raqsmediacollective.net www.sarai.net _________________________________________ reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. Critiques & Collaborations To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with subscribe in the subject header. To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> From kshmendra2005 at yahoo.com Thu Apr 16 19:48:22 2009 From: kshmendra2005 at yahoo.com (Kshmendra Kaul) Date: Thu, 16 Apr 2009 07:18:22 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Reader-list] The Goddess Hingala Of Baluchistan In-Reply-To: <6ade4a8f0904151102s1123b28dg5907e0a8f360d10e@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <953857.540.qm@web57203.mail.re3.yahoo.com> Dear VR   Thanks for the additional info.   >From going through Web resources >>>>   Yes, it appears that Hinglaj is supposed to be one of the 51 (various versions also mention 52 and 64) Shakti Peeths where Vishnu scattered the cut up parts of Sati to calm down Shiva who had gone into Tandav mode after Sati immolated herself, unable to bear the insults heaped upon Shiva. Each Shakti Peeth has a particular representation of Shakti and Shiva associated with it   Hinglaj is where the head (brains) is supposed to have landed and so bears special sanctity. (Kotari + Bhimlochan) Apparently Rama is also said to have meditated at Hinglaj to atone for a sin of his.   Amarnath is also listed as one of the 51 Shakti Peeths. The neck (or throat) fell there. (Mahamaya + Trisandhyasvar)   Kamkhya supposedly received the Yoni (genitals) (Kamakhya + Umananda)   Back to Hinglaj, this weblink of an intriguing tablet in ceramics or stone did not get properly registered in my last mail http://offroadpakistan.com/pictures/hingol_2005/untitled.html   What I also found interesting is that the Hinglaj goddess is supposed to be associated with the Bhavsar community, Kshatriyas originating from Saurashtra. But the pics in the weblink provided by Yasir show the Hinglaj Nani Ka Mander being looked after by "Mayavanshi Samaj" who are listed as Scheduled Caste   I also read that the Mahyavanshi were protagonists in the much lauded 1980 film by Ketan Mehta "Bhavni Bhavai"   Kshmendra         --- On Wed, 4/15/09, V Ramaswamy wrote: From: V Ramaswamy Subject: Re: [Reader-list] The Goddess Hingala Of Baluchistan To: kshmendra2005 at yahoo.com Cc: "sarai list" , "yasir ~يا سر" Date: Wednesday, April 15, 2009, 11:32 PM Bengalis of an older generation would remember a celebrated film (of the late 50s or early 60s I think), with Uttam Kumar and Sabitri, called "Maru Tirtha Hinglaj". A hit song from that film was "Koto dur, aar koto dur, bolo Ma". There is a Mahanirban Math in south Calcutta, and the swami who founded that, I think his name was Nityananda, had been a bhakta at Hinglaj. If I am not wrong, one of the parts of Kali is supposed to have landed there. Is / was a centre of tantra, like Kamakhya.   VR From kshmendra2005 at yahoo.com Thu Apr 16 19:57:30 2009 From: kshmendra2005 at yahoo.com (Kshmendra Kaul) Date: Thu, 16 Apr 2009 07:27:30 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Reader-list] Muslims in Ramadhan & 51 Shakti Peeths Message-ID: <529601.74624.qm@web57206.mail.re3.yahoo.com> When the question was put as to how Muslims were supposed to start and break their fast in Ramadhan in places like the Land(s) of the Midnight Sun, the tongue in cheek answer was that Muslims were not meant to live there.    Similarly, the parts of Sati's body that were cut up by Vishnu are reported as having been scattered over what is predominantly the Indian sub-continent, landing at what are recognised as 51 or 64 Shakti Peeths.   Is that all the strength Vishnu had in his arms that the slingshots of the cut up body pieces landed in such a small area (compared to the total size of the Earth)? Maybe Hindus (or at least devotees of Shakti or at the very very least the devotees of Sati) were not meant to live all over the world.   Just thinking aloud   Kshmendra   From rakesh.rnbdj at gmail.com Thu Apr 16 20:30:44 2009 From: rakesh.rnbdj at gmail.com (Rakesh Iyer) Date: Thu, 16 Apr 2009 20:30:44 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] India & My conception of development Message-ID: Dear all This is part-I of a series of mails, where I wish to look at claims of what Bipin jee has mentioned regarding Muslims, as well as what my conception of development and nation is. This mail would deal with my conceptions of development and nation-state (or state-nation as India is one). Before writing something here, let me clarify one thing. None of my ideas are original. It's all there in the books to read and articles to find. I am not a great human being to think about an original idea. Nor am I innovative like journalists who thought of shoe-throwing to protest in a legitimate yet innovative manner. *Diversity & India* India is a country/state-nation which has a lot of diversity. I call India as a state-nation, because for me, a nation is a territory which has a common culture, a common language and a common religion. By and large, even the provinces in India don't have a common religion, though by and large they do have a majority religion(Kashmir has Muslim, generally most provinces have Hinduism, and North-East provinces have Christianity). And hence, Tamil culture is quite different from say, Punjabi culture. Hence, India is actually a combination of nations which have been united together by means of a statist apparatus, which consists of the three organs: legislature, executive and judiciary. India has huge diversity even in terms of religions, and within religions too, it has huge diversities. If we look at Hinduism, there are different kinds of Hindus. To begin with, the word 'Hindu' itself was derived from the word 'Sindhu' which was given by Arabs to the people living to the east of the river Indus. Hence, it's ironical that we all use a word to describe a religion, a word which was developed by the so-called invaders who looted us. May be we should have developed a common word which doesn't remind us of these invaders. Anyways, coming back to our diversity. We have different kinds of texts which can be treated as foundation of Hindus: the Vedas, the Upanishads, the Gita, the Ramayana, the Mahabharata and even others. Moreover, many lower castes and tribals haven't read these texts; they have only heard these in folklore form. And there are different versions of these texts as well in different regions. Tulsidas' Ramayana is different from Kamban's Ramayana. So do the tribals have different versions of Ramayana as well. Infact, in some Ramayana versions, Sita is the sister of Ram, not his wife! Similarly, even Islam and Christianity have huge diversity in India. India is the only nation in the world where you can have Scheduled Caste Muslims and Scheduled Caste Christians. Islam and Christians don't accept the caste system or any system which creates inequality among their believers, as they believe all human beings are equal. In our Hinduism, the caste system was created, and while its' creation may have been for other purposes, it degenerated into a system which discriminated against the today's SC's and ST's and favored the rule of the elitist brahmans and kshatriyas on the majority of the people who didn't belong to either of the varnas. There are also linguistic and regional differences among people in this country. A North-Indian Muslim has different language skills, different customs and even different food to eat when compared with a South Indian Muslim. Similar is the case for Hindus and Christians of either regions as well. Also, within a state too, diversitites can be found. Eastern UP people are very different from western UP people as well. So is the case for Telengana when compared to coastal Andhra Pradesh. Because of this diversity, India is very difficult to maintain as a state. There are various diversities, and what is acceptable in one region of India may not be acceptable in some other region. In a brahmanic household, drinking of women would be barred. In Chhatisgarh and Karnataka, tribals actually encourage their women to drink on festival occasions, and even generally as it forms a part of their diet. Infact, it is supposed to give them protein! Hence, to govern such a large state has its' own problems and own complexities, which have to be maintained very carefully. So now I dwell upon what aspect a state should take. Any state should accept these diversities and hence ensure that they combine as a strength to help in improving the lots of the people. As in Sarkaar film, Amitabh Bachchan says 'taakat logon ko jodhne se badhti hai, unhein khilaaf karne mein nahi'. Any state can be strong only when its people are united and willing to remain together for a common cause. In case of India, inspite of our differences and diversities, all the provinces of India remain together because of the experiment of democracy, and the hope attached to it that through this, our development is possible, our livelihoods can be better off, and finally our lives would be much better off. And the reason this development is necessary is that it is one of the major requirements for the people to be happy. India is certainly in a unique position. It has people belonging to different religions and castes. Many people came from other countries to India, right from the Aryans, to the Arabs, to the Mughals and even the British. Many people from India converted to other religions, either by fraud, force, allurement or even themselves with consent to improve their own lives. Who converted why is something I can't answer, nor do I think anybody else can. The fact is that perceptions have been created to ensure that people view at it from fixed perspective instead of being flexible about it. And these perceptions strike at the very cause of unity. Why is unity important? Not necessarily for the state to survive only. Unity can achieve many things. At the village level, unity can force the panchayat system to work properly. Various governments at various levels can be forced to bring about development schemes and making them work at the grassroot level. Unity can ensure that people engage themselves in sports and leisure activities with a spirit of constructivism and team-spirit, which ultimately also ensures development of personality, of body, spirit and mind. And ultimately this is what makes a person happy. And happiness is the ultimate aim of development according to me. Probably I am imagining utopia, but my goal doesn't rest with economic betterment of a person, it is to ensure every person is happy with his/her own life. Unity is important as it supports people at times of despair. Unity can achieve any action which has good purpose behind it. (Of course even bad purpose based actions can be conducted with unity, but they ultimately will hurt someone). Unity thereby helps us. And by dividing society like the Congress sometimes or the BJP mainly has done, we won't achieve anything. Social trust of the society will break. And this will result in various problems of their own. Disunity creates mistrust. And this ensures our politicians can get away by fooling us in the name of religion. They can ask us to vote in the name of religion and their security, but do nothing for us in return, in the field of development. It can ensure we always remain in fear and anxiety for our own lives instead of doing something constructive to improve our lives and also the lives of others. It ensures states spend their resources tackling discontent and terrorism. It creates bias amongst people and makes them commit all kinds of horrendous crimes, as witnessed in Delhi 1984 and Gujarat 2002. It ensures people are fooled at the base while those at the top can easily enjoy the hard-earned money and resources at the cost of the poor. Our elites set the agenda, and we fall for it. Or probably, we also join the elite as our interests are in resonance with them, and we collude with them to deprive the vast poor majority of our population to satisfy our gains at their cost. And we also go on mistrusting our people, with no communication between us and them. And such a state will be destroyed one day or the other, however much one tries the opposite way. Hence, I won't say we are a state which exemplifies unity in diversity. But yes, we should exemplify one. In the next article, I would talk about where to unite and where not to. Also, I will deal with some part of nationalism to a certain extent. I would be very happy if people can put their points across, as at least I can discuss and clarify points as well as improve my own understanding of what India is and how can it be made better. I also feel people can put up articles like me and hence we can debate and discuss many issues of India. Regards Rakesh From dnyan21 at yahoo.com Thu Apr 16 22:47:41 2009 From: dnyan21 at yahoo.com (dnyan21 at yahoo.com) Date: Thu, 16 Apr 2009 10:17:41 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Reader-list] A modest query.. Message-ID: <836099.93879.qm@web30703.mail.mud.yahoo.com> A modest query: How many of us on SARAI list go (in general, during different elections of Asembly or Parliament) or will go to the voting this year? Is here a survey available? Vaid From rakesh.rnbdj at gmail.com Thu Apr 16 23:01:13 2009 From: rakesh.rnbdj at gmail.com (Rakesh Iyer) Date: Thu, 16 Apr 2009 23:01:13 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] A modest query.. In-Reply-To: <836099.93879.qm@web30703.mail.mud.yahoo.com> References: <836099.93879.qm@web30703.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: Dear Vaid While no such survey has been conducted, I would say that as I am registered as a resident of Bhopal, I am not voting as I am currently living in Chennai (student, IIT-Madras). The reason for being a voter in Bhopal is that I at least am somewhat familiar with issues in Bhopal and my vote has an effect there. In IIT, whether UPA or NDA wins, it has no effect because no Hindutva culture would be practiced in the campus, no secular practicing too, no political campaigns inside the campus, 24 hour power irrespective of who wins (even the Third Front too), and water and food at cheaper rates combined with other subsidies. Also, living in a campus means we are cut off from the Chennai city and its problems. And while we can get to know them as we move around, experiencing them on a daily basis is something different, something I believe is very essential. Regards Rakesh From asitredsalute at gmail.com Fri Apr 17 00:28:07 2009 From: asitredsalute at gmail.com (asit das) Date: Thu, 16 Apr 2009 14:58:07 -0400 Subject: [Reader-list] asit das sent you a Friend Request on Yaari Message-ID: <7b5d4e331f06eb1b140c908028dade11@localhost.localdomain> asit das wants you to join Yaari! Is asit your friend? Yes, asit is my friend! No, asit isn't my friend. Please respond or asit may think you said no :( Thanks, The Yaari Team ____ If you prefer not to receive this email tell us here. If you have any concerns regarding the content of this message, please email abuse at yaari.com. Yaari LLC, 358 Angier Ave, Atlanta, GA 30312 YaariZUC237WDE576KCI750OAU748 From asitredsalute at gmail.com Fri Apr 17 00:53:04 2009 From: asitredsalute at gmail.com (asit das) Date: Thu, 16 Apr 2009 15:23:04 -0400 Subject: [Reader-list] asit das sent you a Friend Request on Yaari Message-ID: <1f41c0be08b1a24af08b4a501fe62e8a@localhost.localdomain> asit das wants you to join Yaari! Is asit your friend? Yes, asit is my friend! No, asit isn't my friend. Please respond or asit may think you said no :( Thanks, The Yaari Team ____ If you prefer not to receive this email tell us here. If you have any concerns regarding the content of this message, please email abuse at yaari.com. Yaari LLC, 358 Angier Ave, Atlanta, GA 30312 YaariVGZ230ENF492LYU847HTI246 From asitredsalute at gmail.com Fri Apr 17 01:15:08 2009 From: asitredsalute at gmail.com (asit das) Date: Thu, 16 Apr 2009 15:45:08 -0400 Subject: [Reader-list] asit das sent you a Friend Request on Yaari Message-ID: <75693585af4379cb4922659513b45002@localhost.localdomain> asit das wants you to join Yaari! Is asit your friend? Yes, asit is my friend! No, asit isn't my friend. Please respond or asit may think you said no :( Thanks, The Yaari Team ____ If you prefer not to receive this email tell us here. If you have any concerns regarding the content of this message, please email abuse at yaari.com. Yaari LLC, 358 Angier Ave, Atlanta, GA 30312 YaariJZS637JAH262SRW909EJU802 From kiccovich at yahoo.com Fri Apr 17 01:45:53 2009 From: kiccovich at yahoo.com (francesca recchia) Date: Thu, 16 Apr 2009 13:15:53 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Reader-list] As strong as the mountains Message-ID: <829654.93510.qm@web31702.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Sandstorms are never-ending. The one that is going on now has been lasting for 24 hours: it is hard to breathe and impossible to see the buildings on the other side of the courtyard. The sky is yellow and the smell of dust so intense that overpowers everything else.   When I first arrived, six months ago, I had the feeling that something strong and “primordial” connected me to Kurdistan. Living in a place that is surrounded by mountains makes me feel at home and – however much differences are more prominent than similarities – the sensation of familiarity with the landscape is this something that makes me feel at ease here. The idea of Kurdish “nation” and identity is constructed around the mountains. From the myth of origins to the uprising, from Ararat to the peshmerga, mountains are always part of the narration – not as the background of the story, but as one of the constitutive elements of the narrative. I have always thought that mountains would have an impact on people’s character. If I think of home, of my family, of our roots, there is in them an unmistakable trait that comes from the mountains. I have found that same trait here – with different words and feelings, but still with the same meanings. Perhaps it is this ancient proximity that connects me to this place: it is a way of feeling that is connected to the solidity of the mountains, which generates a rough but still welcoming approach to the world. The earthquake – or better the stories about the earthquake that my family and childhood friends have told me – gave me the chance to grasp the sense of my instinctive attachment to this place. I have been told, from my hometown, stories of pride and dignity, stories of a people that is wounded but not defeated. From afar, through these words, I rediscovered that part of myself that comes from the mountains. And in this rediscovery I have found the meaning of my proximity to Kurdistan.   My writing this week is a bit surreal and the yellow sky doesn’t help to find clarity. The loneliness I felt these past days – the emptiness that the awareness of missing out a significant part of the history of my family and my land – has been perhaps mitigated a little by the perception of this proximity, an ancestral and irrational feeling that functioned a bit as an anchor in a moment of deep disorientation.   francesca recchia kiccovich at yahoo.com it +39 338 166 3648 iq +964 (0) 750 7085 681 http://www.veleno.tv/bollettini From asitredsalute at gmail.com Fri Apr 17 01:51:05 2009 From: asitredsalute at gmail.com (asit das) Date: Thu, 16 Apr 2009 16:21:05 -0400 Subject: [Reader-list] asit das sent you a Friend Request on Yaari Message-ID: <2b0adf7c07a49d21873e650b04218a7d@localhost.localdomain> asit das wants you to join Yaari! Is asit your friend? Yes, asit is my friend! No, asit isn't my friend. Please respond or asit may think you said no :( Thanks, The Yaari Team ____ If you prefer not to receive this email tell us here. If you have any concerns regarding the content of this message, please email abuse at yaari.com. Yaari LLC, 358 Angier Ave, Atlanta, GA 30312 YaariGOG867XYB852URI304XRQ415 From kj.impulse at gmail.com Wed Apr 15 13:09:19 2009 From: kj.impulse at gmail.com (Kavita Joshi) Date: Wed, 15 Apr 2009 13:09:19 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] [DFA NewsLetter] Invitation: Persistence Resistance 2009 Message-ID: <821019d70904150039h30172589n812c2e533a864866@mail.gmail.com> ---------- Forwarded message ---------- From: MLF Dear All, I am happy to invite you for the second edition of the film festival Persistence Resistance: a festival of contemporary political films The festival schedule is available at: http://www.magiclanternfoundation.org/Events/Persistence%202009/pr09home.htm l Dates: April 17-19 Venue: India International Centre, 40 Max Mueller Marg, Lodhi Estate, New Delhi 110003 All welcome. Entry Free If you are in Delhi between 17-19 April 2009, do please visit and attend the festival. Please also circulate the invite to your friends and networks in Delhi who might wish to attend or write about the festival. Gargi Sen ----- Magic Lantern Foundation J 1881 Chittaranajan Park, Basement, New Delhi 110019 P: +(91 11) 26273244; 41605239 E: magiclantern.foundation at gmail.com, infor at magiclanternfoundation.org W: http://www.magiclanternfoundation.org ----- --~--~---------~--~----~------------~-------~--~----~ Please DO NOT REPLY to the sender. To contact the MODERATOR: delhifilmarchive [at] gmail.com To UNSUBSCRIBE: send an email to delhifilmarchive-unsubscribe at googlegroups.com More OPTIONS are on the web: http://groups.google.com/group/delhifilmarchive Our WEBSITE: www.delhifilmarchive.org -~----------~----~----~----~------~----~------~--~--- From 2tahamehmood at googlemail.com Fri Apr 17 08:53:39 2009 From: 2tahamehmood at googlemail.com (Taha Mehmood) Date: Fri, 17 Apr 2009 04:23:39 +0100 Subject: [Reader-list] U.S. discovers violations in surveillance program Message-ID: <65be9bf40904162023k110eb47er7739f83eaa3ba8a0@mail.gmail.com> Dear All and Dear Jeebesh, The story below indicates how a State can sometimes overstep its privileges. I particularly liked the way in which various government players choose to articulate illegal actions of the State, related to brazen invasion of privacy and total disregard for the individual freedom of the persons concerned. For instance, sample this piece of rhetoric- 'NSA had engaged in "over-collection" of Americans' domestic communications.' ha ha...'over-collection' seems like an act of earnestness totally devoid of any intentionality and willful disregard. ...and Jeebesh there is something for you, in this report. Consider this- a. The Justice Department seeks court approval for each wiretap, which must be approved by the secretive Foreign Intelligence Surveillance Court. b.Congress in July 2008 authorized U.S. intelligence agencies to eavesdrop without court approval on foreign targets believed to be outside the United States. c. But critics complained the new bill allowed warrantless surveillance of phone calls and e-mails of Americans who were communicating with the foreign targets, and they said safeguards in the bill to minimize such eavesdropping were inadequate. In this case at least 'foreign' seems like a valid state construct, a category which appears to be quite institutionalized. It may be so that 'foreign' causes 'anxiety'. But perhaps it is not the 'foreign' which the State sees, rather the presence of 'anxiety' appears as a symptom, for which the 'foreign' is defined, sought, classified, studied, analyzed, categorized and chaffed out. Maybe I am completely wrong here, but it appears to me, as if, any pathology of the state could have anxiety of the foreign or the foreignness of anxiety as fundamental elements playing a virtually real game of perfectly rational causality. Regards Taha http://www.reuters.com/article/domesticNews/idUSTRE53F4GH20090416 U.S. discovers violations in surveillance program Thu Apr 16, 2009 11:27am EDT By James Vicini WASHINGTON (Reuters) - A U.S. program to intercept Americans' e-mails and phone calls recently violated legal restrictions imposed to guard against previous abuses, the Justice Department said on Thursday. After learning of the violations, the department said, the National Security Agency adopted new safeguards that brought the program into compliance. "The Justice Department ... works diligently to ensure that surveillance under established legal authorities complies with the nation's laws, regulations and policies, including those designed to protect privacy interests and civil liberties," department spokesman Dean Boyd said. The Justice Department seeks court approval for each wiretap, which must be approved by the secretive Foreign Intelligence Surveillance Court. Boyd issued the statement after The New York Times reported that the NSA had intercepted the e-mails and phone calls in recent months on a scale that went beyond limits set by the U.S. Congress last year. Citing unnamed intelligence officials, the paper said the NSA had engaged in "over-collection" of Americans' domestic communications. Democrat Dianne Feinstein, chairman of the Senate Intelligence Committee, said her panel would hold a hearing on the subject within a month. "These are serious allegations, and we will make sure we get the facts," Feinstein said. Congress in July 2008 authorized U.S. intelligence agencies to eavesdrop without court approval on foreign targets believed to be outside the United States. The 2008 bill was introduced after controversy over a secret warrantless domestic spying program, launched by former President George W. Bush after the September 11 attacks and revealed in 2005. But critics complained the new bill allowed warrantless surveillance of phone calls and e-mails of Americans who were communicating with the foreign targets, and they said safeguards in the bill to minimize such eavesdropping were inadequate. The bill also gave liability protection to telecommunications companies that took part in the program. President Barack Obama has reversed some security policies of the Bush administration, ordering the closure of the Guantanamo Bay prison for terrorism suspects within a year and an end to interrogation methods condemned as torture. Boyd said the Justice Department had immediately notified the surveillance court, which has jurisdiction over such eavesdropping, of the excess wiretapping and was working with the court to address the problem. Government officials also have briefed members of Congress, including lawmakers on the intelligence and judiciary committees, Boyd said. (Editing by Randall Mikkelsen and Eric Beech) From jeromedsouza at yahoo.com Fri Apr 17 09:16:18 2009 From: jeromedsouza at yahoo.com (JEROME DSOUZA) Date: Thu, 16 Apr 2009 20:46:18 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Reader-list] A Modest Appeal to Election Propagandists In-Reply-To: <005a01c9be7b$3a5d7cf0$0201a8c0@limo> Message-ID: <800805.10464.qm@web51404.mail.re2.yahoo.com> Dear All, I think there is enough space on this list for original and stimulating discussion and debate across differing points of view. However, if we want to be taken seriously we should have an original point of view to put forward rather than being mere mouthpieces for whichever ideology we subscribe to. After all, most of us are members here as we enrich ourselves with a range of viewpoints, and I am sure none of us are here to be lectured to. Regards Jerome --- On Thu, 4/16/09, bipin wrote: > From: bipin > Subject: Re: [Reader-list] A Modest Appeal to Election Propagandists > To: "Aditya Raj Kaul" > Cc: "sarai-list" > Date: Thursday, April 16, 2009, 5:08 AM > Dear Aditya, > > Whole community will not have effect with arrogance of one > man. We can carry > out the discussion with right spirit by just ignoring > Shuddhabrata Sengupta. > > thanks > Bipin > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Aditya Raj Kaul" > > To: "sarai list" > Sent: Thursday, April 16, 2009 1:42 PM > Subject: Re: [Reader-list] A Modest Appeal to Election > Propagandists > > > > Fortunately enough Reader's List at Sarai does not > work according to the > > wishes of one Shuddhabrata Sengupta. After many > attacks, it has survived > > and > > still holds to be a free flowing interactive forum. > > > > Wonder what mess it would have been if > 'jhollahwallahs' had their acts & > > wishes implemented here on this forum too? > > > > We would have been 'in exile' yet again from > this forum too. Can you beat > > that ? > > > > God Bless!! > > > > On Thu, Apr 16, 2009 at 11:17 AM, Shuddhabrata > Sengupta > > wrote: > > > >> Dear all, > >> > >> Opinions are one thing. Advertisement is another. > Atal Bihari > >> Vajpayee's 'letter' is not an opinion, > or even an argument. It is an > >> advertisement. It says nothing in substance other > than the fact that > >> 'Advani is Good for India'. It does not > really tell us why, except > >> for the fact that Vajpayee knows and has worked > with Advani and > >> thinks that he is good for India.It does not even > spell out an idea > >> of a programme or a vision that Vajpayee, Advani > and their party > >> stand for. All it offers us are the usual > platitudes that every > >> political party, at every election offers. It is > as meaningful, and > >> about as enlightening, as a Pepsi ad trying to > tell us how different > >> it is from Coke. > >> > >> This list has always had room for all kinds of > opinions and > >> viewpoints. I do not know of any forum that takes > its ethic of > >> tolerance as seriously as this list. Which is why > people like Pawan > >> Durani and me, who happen to occupy completely > antagonistic > >> positions, can still share the same space. > >> > >> I do not recall anyone on this list ever posting > or forwarding > >> election propaganda for any political party before > Durani's forward > >> of Atal Behari Vajpayee's 'appeal'. So > the question of likening this > >> 'ad' to any other posts, which have > carried does not arise. We have > >> simply not had to deal with party political > propaganda like this before. > >> > >> If someone had peddled Prakash Karat's plug > for the CPI (M) or Rahul > >> Gandhi's endorsement for the Congress, my > response would not have > >> been one bit different. I would have said exactly > what I am saying > >> about Durani's forward of Vajpayee's > campaign message. > >> > >> If this becomes acceptable, then next, we will > have people peddling > >> the Nano Car, advertising Mouth Freshners and > endorsing products of > >> all descriptions including the washing machines, > the Congress Party, > >> teflon coated household products, the Nehru-Gandhi > Dynasty, potato > >> crisps, the BSP, Microsoft software, sedatives and > the CPI(M). > >> > >> Our media space is saturated as it is with > advertisements. Please let > >> us try and protect a small space for discussion > and reflection from > >> the encroachments of political advertisements and > election marketing > >> exercises. I would appeal to everyone to restrain > themselves from > >> putting out this kind of endorsement of electoral > platforms. There > >> are many other forums for these exercises on the > internet, please > >> take all public-relations material there. And > spare us, > >> > >> Oddly, advertising pundits often fail to take into > account the fact > >> that some campaigns backfire on the products that > they are supposed > >> to endorse. > >> > >> regards > >> > >> Shuddha > >> > >> > >> On 16-Apr-09, at 8:43 AM, Pawan Durani wrote: > >> > >> > Dear All, > >> > > >> > What may be serious for 'x' may be > non serious for 'y'. Who defines > >> > the limits ? Unless the group is meant to > support a particular > >> > ideology leaning towards my weaker hand side. > >> > > >> > This group has been forwarded mails from > pathetic writers and > >> > Kashmir expert like 'Aran Dhat Teri Ki > Roy ' and we had to bear > >> > that . > >> > > >> > It is understandable that someone may not > understand poetry of Mr > >> > Vajpayee as I do not understand Marx either. > >> > > >> > However the time is ripe that communal right > wing party like > >> > Communists , who have an election with > radical Muslim party like > >> > PDP of Madhani in Kerela should be returned > without any seat across > >> > the country. > >> > > >> > The dual standards of pathetic and hazardous > party needs to be > >> > exposed . At least we may be saving the > future generation of > >> > innocent youths who undergo a brain wash by > the followers of > >> > foreign ideology. > >> > > >> > Regards > >> > > >> > pawan > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > On Thu, Apr 16, 2009 at 12:39 AM, > Shuddhabrata Sengupta > >> > wrote: > >> > Dear All, > >> > > >> > I never thought the day would come when the > reader list, after all > >> > the nonsense it has had to swallow over the > last few years, would > >> > also have to bear with the indignity of being > subject to missives > >> > sent on behalf of the person, Atal Behari > Vajpayee, who having > >> > hobbled along past his sell by date, > continues to peddle the tripe > >> > that goes by the name of his pathetic party. > >> > > >> > This was meant to be a list for serious > discussion, and has instead > >> > become a forum for the less than mediocre > propaganda, mainly of the > >> > seemingly inexhaustible far right. Not just > jibes (of course, > >> > unsubstantiated) against activists, but now, > much worse, the > >> > pompous serenade of someone who was not just > the worst prime > >> > minister (A B Vajpayee( but also probably the > worst poet that this > >> > country has had the misfortune to have been > subject to. > >> > > >> > I hope that you will all (irrespective of > political affiliation and > >> > loyalties) join me in requesting everyone > concerned not to burden > >> > us with this kind of puerile election > propaganda in the future. It > >> > is bad enough that I have to take calls from > the BJP and the > >> > Congress and the Third, Fourth, Left, Right > and my phone an in my > >> > mailbox, it is worse to see this space that > we have tried to > >> > nurture for autonomous discussion being > slowly crept on by > >> > electioneering. In this election, where no > party and no candidate > >> > has any vision worth discussing, the last > thing we need is to have > >> > the space between our ears being filled with > election spam on the > >> > reader list. > >> > > >> > Please try and keep election garbage out of > here. > >> > > >> > thanks > >> > > >> > Shuddha > >> > > >> > > >> > On 15-Apr-09, at 11:20 PM, Pawan Durani > wrote: > >> > > >> >> My Dear Fellow Citizens, > >> >> > >> >> The decisive hour for electing the 15th > Lok Sabha is upon us. > >> >> Today, our > >> >> nation is confronted by serious > challenges of every kind. To > >> >> successfully > >> >> meet these challenges the nation needs a > strong government and a > >> >> determined > >> >> leader. A government that by means of > good governance, can ensure > >> >> security > >> >> for and rapid development of our country > – a promise that has been > >> >> made and > >> >> will be delivered by Shri LK Advani. > >> >> > >> >> I am unable to meet all of you due to > poor health. However, I am > >> >> grateful to > >> >> you for the belongingness and affection > that you have showered > >> >> upon me. What > >> >> perturbs me much more than my own health > is the health of my > >> >> India. The cure > >> >> for that lies in your firm resolve. > >> >> > >> >> Shri Lal Krishna Advani and I have been > working together since > >> >> 1952. His > >> >> unblemished character and resolute > personality have shown like a > >> >> light torch > >> >> in Indian politics. He is skilful in the > art of taking up > >> >> challenges and > >> >> overcoming them. He is a compassionate > human being and an > >> >> exceptional leader > >> >> whose best is yet to come. I firmly > believe becoming the Prime > >> >> Minister of > >> >> India will bring out the best in him. > >> >> > >> >> I appeal to all of you, especially to the > youth of our country, to > >> >> extend > >> >> your wholehearted support, assistance and > mandate to the BJP and > >> >> its allied > >> >> parties. Only Advaniji is capable of > fulfilling the dream that > >> >> both of us > >> >> have seen together. Adavaniji can provide > a new direction to the > >> >> governance > >> >> of this country so that we create an > India that is devoid of poverty, > >> >> hunger, despair and injustice. > >> >> > >> >> I invite you to join me in taking a firm > resolve to create a strong > >> >> government under the determined > leadership of Shree Advani for a > >> >> strong and > >> >> prosperous India. This will only happen > when you make the > >> >> candidates of BJP > >> >> and its allies from your region > victorious. > >> >> > >> >> Thank you, > >> >> > >> >> Atal Behari Vajpayee > >> >> > >> >> > >> >> > >> >> > http://www.lkadvani.in/eng/content/view/865/427/ > >> >> _________________________________________ > >> >> reader-list: an open discussion list on > media and the city. > >> >> Critiques & Collaborations > >> >> To subscribe: send an email to > reader-list-request at sarai.net with > >> >> subscribe in the subject header. > >> >> To unsubscribe: > https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > >> >> List archive: > <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> > >> > > >> > Shuddhabrata Sengupta > >> > The Sarai Programme at CSDS > >> > Raqs Media Collective > >> > shuddha at sarai.net > >> > www.sarai.net > >> > www.raqsmediacollective.net > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > >> Shuddhabrata Sengupta > >> The Sarai Programme at CSDS > >> Raqs Media Collective > >> shuddha at sarai.net > >> www.sarai.net > >> www.raqsmediacollective.net > >> > >> > >> _________________________________________ > >> reader-list: an open discussion list on media and > the city. > >> Critiques & Collaborations > >> To subscribe: send an email to > reader-list-request at sarai.net with > >> subscribe in the subject header. > >> To unsubscribe: > https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > >> List archive: > <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> > >> > > > > > > > > -- > > Aditya Raj Kaul > > _________________________________________ > > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the > city. > > Critiques & Collaborations > > To subscribe: send an email to > reader-list-request at sarai.net with > > subscribe in the subject header. > > To unsubscribe: > https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > > List archive: > <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> > > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to > reader-list-request at sarai.net with subscribe in the subject > header. > To unsubscribe: > https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: > <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> From sagar.sanyal at gmail.com Fri Apr 17 09:30:06 2009 From: sagar.sanyal at gmail.com (Sagar Sanyal) Date: Fri, 17 Apr 2009 16:00:06 +1200 Subject: [Reader-list] U.S. discovers violations in surveillance program Message-ID: This is in relation to the article "U.S. discovers violations in surveillance Program" by James Vicini ( http://www.reuters.com/article/domesticNews/idUSTRE53F4GH20090416 ) posted earlier today on the reader-list. The Vicini article ends on a slight note of optimism regarding the Obama administration’s willingness to ‘work with the court to address the problem’ of the lack of public accountability in the US domestic surveillance program. The following link to a piece by Glen Greenwald tempers that optimism. It discusses the Obama administration’s espousal of a doctrine of ‘sovereign immunity’ to shield dubious cases of surveillance from the courts. The doctrine, unprecedented even by the Bush administration’s assertion of executive supremacy, asserts that the PATRIOT Act bars any lawsuits of any kind for illegal government surveillance unless there is ‘willful disclosure’ of the illegally intercepted communications "New and worse secrecy and immunity claims from the Obama Dept Of Justice" By Glen Greenwald Monday April 6, 2009 http://www.salon.com/opinion/greenwald/2009/04/06/obama/ Sagar. From cubbykabi at yahoo.com Fri Apr 17 09:46:46 2009 From: cubbykabi at yahoo.com (kabi cubby sherman) Date: Fri, 17 Apr 2009 09:46:46 +0530 (IST) Subject: [Reader-list] A Modest Appeal to Election Propagandists In-Reply-To: <005a01c9be7b$3a5d7cf0$0201a8c0@limo> References: <6b79f1a70904151050i26c49d8dw27120a6520e04ba1@mail.gmail.com> <2F94A86F-611C-4EE0-A9A4-9DD953E858D7@sarai.net> <6b79f1a70904152013v15d69a70oc44cb086fe2d26ca@mail.gmail.com> <6353c690904160112x7fe5e537t255672250e5b4b9a@mail.gmail.com> <005a01c9be7b$3a5d7cf0$0201a8c0@limo> Message-ID: <393796.62120.qm@web94715.mail.in2.yahoo.com> as readerlist member am kindly requesting not to post election propaganda on this listserv. there is already so much and if i want propaganda i can go find it as the country is saturated with it in a media types. my understanding is that this is a place to analyse the propaganda, not to propagate it.. what is your understanding? best kabi Meter Down - काली पीली की कहानी blog: http://meterdown.wordpress.com podcast: http://feeds2.feedburner.com/meterdown ________________________________ From: bipin To: Aditya Raj Kaul Cc: sarai-list Sent: Thursday, 16 April, 2009 3:38:01 PM Subject: Re: [Reader-list] A Modest Appeal to Election Propagandists Dear Aditya, Whole community will not have effect with arrogance of one man. We can carry out the discussion with right spirit by just ignoring Shuddhabrata Sengupta. thanks Bipin ----- Original Message ----- From: "Aditya Raj Kaul" To: "sarai list" Sent: Thursday, April 16, 2009 1:42 PM Subject: Re: [Reader-list] A Modest Appeal to Election Propagandists > Fortunately enough Reader's List at Sarai does not work according to the > wishes of one Shuddhabrata Sengupta. After many attacks, it has survived > and > still holds to be a free flowing interactive forum. > > Wonder what mess it would have been if 'jhollahwallahs' had their acts & > wishes implemented here on this forum too? > > We would have been 'in exile' yet again from this forum too. Can you beat > that ? > > God Bless!! > > On Thu, Apr 16, 2009 at 11:17 AM, Shuddhabrata Sengupta > wrote: > >> Dear all, >> >> Opinions are one thing. Advertisement is another. Atal Bihari >> Vajpayee's 'letter' is not an opinion, or even an argument. It is an >> advertisement. It says nothing in substance other than the fact that >> 'Advani is Good for India'. It does not really tell us why, except >> for the fact that Vajpayee knows and has worked with Advani and >> thinks that he is good for India.It does not even spell out an idea >> of a programme or a vision that Vajpayee, Advani and their party >> stand for. All it offers us are the usual platitudes that every >> political party, at every election offers. It is as meaningful, and >> about as enlightening, as a Pepsi ad trying to tell us how different >> it is from Coke. >> >> This list has always had room for all kinds of opinions and >> viewpoints. I do not know of any forum that takes its ethic of >> tolerance as seriously as this list. Which is why people like Pawan >> Durani and me, who happen to occupy completely antagonistic >> positions, can still share the same space. >> >> I do not recall anyone on this list ever posting or forwarding >> election propaganda for any political party before Durani's forward >> of Atal Behari Vajpayee's 'appeal'. So the question of likening this >> 'ad' to any other posts, which have carried does not arise. We have >> simply not had to deal with party political propaganda like this before. >> >> If someone had peddled Prakash Karat's plug for the CPI (M) or Rahul >> Gandhi's endorsement for the Congress, my response would not have >> been one bit different. I would have said exactly what I am saying >> about Durani's forward of Vajpayee's campaign message. >> >> If this becomes acceptable, then next, we will have people peddling >> the Nano Car, advertising Mouth Freshners and endorsing products of >> all descriptions including the washing machines, the Congress Party, >> teflon coated household products, the Nehru-Gandhi Dynasty, potato >> crisps, the BSP, Microsoft software, sedatives and the CPI(M). >> >> Our media space is saturated as it is with advertisements. Please let >> us try and protect a small space for discussion and reflection from >> the encroachments of political advertisements and election marketing >> exercises. I would appeal to everyone to restrain themselves from >> putting out this kind of endorsement of electoral platforms. There >> are many other forums for these exercises on the internet, please >> take all public-relations material there. And spare us, >> >> Oddly, advertising pundits often fail to take into account the fact >> that some campaigns backfire on the products that they are supposed >> to endorse. >> >> regards >> >> Shuddha >> >> >> On 16-Apr-09, at 8:43 AM, Pawan Durani wrote: >> >> > Dear All, >> > >> > What may be serious for 'x' may be non serious for 'y'. Who defines >> > the limits ? Unless the group is meant to support a particular >> > ideology leaning towards my weaker hand side. >> > >> > This group has been forwarded mails from pathetic writers and >> > Kashmir expert like 'Aran Dhat Teri Ki Roy ' and we had to bear >> > that . >> > >> > It is understandable that someone may not understand poetry of Mr >> > Vajpayee as I do not understand Marx either. >> > >> > However the time is ripe that communal right wing party like >> > Communists , who have an election with radical Muslim party like >> > PDP of Madhani in Kerela should be returned without any seat across >> > the country. >> > >> > The dual standards of pathetic and hazardous party needs to be >> > exposed . At least we may be saving the future generation of >> > innocent youths who undergo a brain wash by the followers of >> > foreign ideology. >> > >> > Regards >> > >> > pawan >> > >> > >> > >> > On Thu, Apr 16, 2009 at 12:39 AM, Shuddhabrata Sengupta >> > wrote: >> > Dear All, >> > >> > I never thought the day would come when the reader list, after all >> > the nonsense it has had to swallow over the last few years, would >> > also have to bear with the indignity of being subject to missives >> > sent on behalf of the person, Atal Behari Vajpayee, who having >> > hobbled along past his sell by date, continues to peddle the tripe >> > that goes by the name of his pathetic party. >> > >> > This was meant to be a list for serious discussion, and has instead >> > become a forum for the less than mediocre propaganda, mainly of the >> > seemingly inexhaustible far right. Not just jibes (of course, >> > unsubstantiated) against activists, but now, much worse, the >> > pompous serenade of someone who was not just the worst prime >> > minister (A B Vajpayee( but also probably the worst poet that this >> > country has had the misfortune to have been subject to. >> > >> > I hope that you will all (irrespective of political affiliation and >> > loyalties) join me in requesting everyone concerned not to burden >> > us with this kind of puerile election propaganda in the future. It >> > is bad enough that I have to take calls from the BJP and the >> > Congress and the Third, Fourth, Left, Right and my phone an in my >> > mailbox, it is worse to see this space that we have tried to >> > nurture for autonomous discussion being slowly crept on by >> > electioneering. In this election, where no party and no candidate >> > has any vision worth discussing, the last thing we need is to have >> > the space between our ears being filled with election spam on the >> > reader list. >> > >> > Please try and keep election garbage out of here. >> > >> > thanks >> > >> > Shuddha >> > >> > >> > On 15-Apr-09, at 11:20 PM, Pawan Durani wrote: >> > >> >> My Dear Fellow Citizens, >> >> >> >> The decisive hour for electing the 15th Lok Sabha is upon us. >> >> Today, our >> >> nation is confronted by serious challenges of every kind. To >> >> successfully >> >> meet these challenges the nation needs a strong government and a >> >> determined >> >> leader. A government that by means of good governance, can ensure >> >> security >> >> for and rapid development of our country – a promise that has been >> >> made and >> >> will be delivered by Shri LK Advani. >> >> >> >> I am unable to meet all of you due to poor health. However, I am >> >> grateful to >> >> you for the belongingness and affection that you have showered >> >> upon me. What >> >> perturbs me much more than my own health is the health of my >> >> India. The cure >> >> for that lies in your firm resolve. >> >> >> >> Shri Lal Krishna Advani and I have been working together since >> >> 1952. His >> >> unblemished character and resolute personality have shown like a >> >> light torch >> >> in Indian politics. He is skilful in the art of taking up >> >> challenges and >> >> overcoming them. He is a compassionate human being and an >> >> exceptional leader >> >> whose best is yet to come. I firmly believe becoming the Prime >> >> Minister of >> >> India will bring out the best in him. >> >> >> >> I appeal to all of you, especially to the youth of our country, to >> >> extend >> >> your wholehearted support, assistance and mandate to the BJP and >> >> its allied >> >> parties. Only Advaniji is capable of fulfilling the dream that >> >> both of us >> >> have seen together. Adavaniji can provide a new direction to the >> >> governance >> >> of this country so that we create an India that is devoid of poverty, >> >> hunger, despair and injustice. >> >> >> >> I invite you to join me in taking a firm resolve to create a strong >> >> government under the determined leadership of Shree Advani for a >> >> strong and >> >> prosperous India. This will only happen when you make the >> >> candidates of BJP >> >> and its allies from your region victorious. >> >> >> >> Thank you, >> >> >> >> Atal Behari Vajpayee >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> http://www.lkadvani.in/eng/content/view/865/427/ >> >> _________________________________________ >> >> reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. >> >> Critiques & Collaborations >> >> To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with >> >> subscribe in the subject header. >> >> To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list >> >> List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> >> > >> > Shuddhabrata Sengupta >> > The Sarai Programme at CSDS >> > Raqs Media Collective >> > shuddha at sarai.net >> > www.sarai.net >> > www.raqsmediacollective.net >> > >> > >> > >> >> Shuddhabrata Sengupta >> The Sarai Programme at CSDS >> Raqs Media Collective >> shuddha at sarai.net >> www.sarai.net >> www.raqsmediacollective.net >> >> >> _________________________________________ >> reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. >> Critiques & Collaborations >> To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with >> subscribe in the subject header. >> To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list >> List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> >> > > > > -- > Aditya Raj Kaul > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > subscribe in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> _________________________________________ reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. Critiques & Collaborations To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with subscribe in the subject header. To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> Unlimited freedom, unlimited storage. Get it now, on http://help.yahoo.com/l/in/yahoo/mail/yahoomail/tools/tools-08.html/ From dnyan21 at yahoo.com Fri Apr 17 10:00:30 2009 From: dnyan21 at yahoo.com (vaid theite) Date: Thu, 16 Apr 2009 21:30:30 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Reader-list] A modest query.. Message-ID: <322996.25325.qm@web30707.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Dear Rakesh, Thanks. But, how will your vote have an effect if you dont vote. Like you, there should be many who have been very active on internet through facebook and other 'apparatuses'to want to bring change in system etc. It is an in electoral democracy. Only articulation and politicizing on through reading lists like SARAI will not help gaining confidence of overall community towards this expressions of intellectual bourgois on net. What do you say? V --- On Thu, 4/16/09, Rakesh Iyer wrote: > From: Rakesh Iyer > Subject: Re: [Reader-list] A modest query.. > To: dnyan21 at yahoo.com > Cc: reader-list at sarai.net > Date: Thursday, April 16, 2009, 10:31 AM > Dear Vaid > > While no such survey has been conducted, I would say that > as I am registered as a resident of Bhopal, I am not voting > as I am currently living in Chennai (student, IIT-Madras). > The reason for being a voter in Bhopal is that I at least am > somewhat familiar with issues in Bhopal and my vote has an > effect there. > > > In IIT, whether UPA or NDA wins, it has no effect because > no Hindutva culture would be practiced in the campus, no > secular practicing too, no political campaigns inside the > campus, 24 hour power irrespective of who wins (even the > Third Front too), and water and food at cheaper rates > combined with other subsidies. Also, living in a campus > means we are cut off from the Chennai city and its problems. > And while we can get to know them as we move around, > experiencing them on a daily basis is something different, > something I believe is very essential. > > > Regards > > Rakesh > > > > From cubbykabi at yahoo.com Fri Apr 17 10:07:56 2009 From: cubbykabi at yahoo.com (kabi cubby sherman) Date: Fri, 17 Apr 2009 10:07:56 +0530 (IST) Subject: [Reader-list] urban studies list Message-ID: <176819.64053.qm@web94709.mail.in2.yahoo.com> all, i realise this is a different list altogether but wondering if there were some cross posters. been trying to subscribe to the urban studies listserv for the past few days but everytime i enter my email ID it comes back with this msg -> Unable to send mail: (535, 'Error: authentication failed') any help, pointers to someone is very appreciated. best kabi Meter Down - काली पीली की कहानी blog: http://meterdown.wordpress.com podcast: http://feeds2.feedburner.com/meterdown Add more friends to your messenger and enjoy! Go to http://messenger.yahoo.com/invite/ From kuhutanvir at gmail.com Fri Apr 17 11:34:56 2009 From: kuhutanvir at gmail.com (Kuhu Tanvir) Date: Fri, 17 Apr 2009 11:34:56 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Wide Screen cinema journal Message-ID: We are happy to announce that the first issue of Wide Screen is now online. Wide Screen is an open access, peer-reviewed cinema journal that aims to bring together the best of academic and journalistic writing on cinema. It is the offspring of the online cinema collective subalterncinema.org. To access the first issue go to http://widescreenjournal.org/index.php/journal/issue/current. From pawan.durani at gmail.com Fri Apr 17 11:40:38 2009 From: pawan.durani at gmail.com (Pawan Durani) Date: Fri, 17 Apr 2009 11:40:38 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] 'Fitna' sequel being made... Message-ID: <6b79f1a70904162310v3e5c1645g40245d365fa3728c@mail.gmail.com> Geert Wilders , who has been banned from entering UK , is coming up with a sequel to his controversial movie 'Fitna' . More details are available in the below link http://creepingsharia.wordpress.com/2009/04/16/geert-wilders-to-make-sequel-to-fitna/ From supreet.sethi at gmail.com Fri Apr 17 12:03:47 2009 From: supreet.sethi at gmail.com (s|s) Date: Fri, 17 Apr 2009 12:03:47 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Earth hour: Green stupidity/Romanticist aesthetics In-Reply-To: <66250.92493.qm@web57205.mail.re3.yahoo.com> References: <66250.92493.qm@web57205.mail.re3.yahoo.com> Message-ID: I like when Nuclear and Hydel power are mentioned in the same breath and fossil fuel as separate category. Nuclear power has suddenly become 'clean'. Even 9th grade science student is taught nuclear waste is hard to dispose off. Its is not incidental that there is so much noise about carbon footprint. Because it just makes nuclear fuel look better. In fact, carbon-dioxide is not even the largest contributor to greenhouse effect. Water vapor is, Methane is. Plug all the assholes because that causes greenhouse. Kill all the cattle if you may. Interestingly, I point to jeebesh's post on Somalian piracy. There is a mention of nuclear waste disposal. Frankly there is no clean solution to that. Carbon-dioxide, thats easy to dispose. If you have more CO2 in atmosphere, you will see algae bloom in the sea. There goes your extra CO2. I am not saying, hydrocarbon based fuel is clean. But relatively its the cleanest. Which brings me to my pet among urban legends. Our favorite car Reva. But thats for some other day. -- ~preet~ From ravig64 at gmail.com Fri Apr 17 12:20:14 2009 From: ravig64 at gmail.com (Ravi Agarwal) Date: Fri, 17 Apr 2009 12:20:14 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Earth hour: Green stupidity/Romanticist aesthetics In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Dear Supreet, While I appreciate your sentiment that one off, and token gestures may amount to very little, even they claim to serve a laudable purpose, my difficulty may be different that yours. I think that thinking of mother earth and nature as a flat unmediated commodity, without taking into account its social and economic politics, leads us to believe that we are only consumers of 'nature' and do not have a 'political' relationship with it. That we can equally participate in climate change and turn the tide without taking responsibility of our differential consumption patterns of energy. I thing that like all 'soundbites' this too makes the issue simpler that what it is. It seems the only way we can understand things now is like 'consumers,' and the enent of turning off electricity is in that approach. Meta soundbites! As an aside, electricity is not generated and put out to be consumed. Generation is also demand dependent, since it 'loads' the generation system. In India we are deficient and saving energy actually saves it, since it other systems needing energy can draw on it. best ravi agarwal On Thu, Apr 16, 2009 at 7:52 AM, s|s wrote: > The green propaganda has been successful. In fact, it has been so > successful, that there is no need for offering facts for getting > certain segment of society to act upon its 'dictate'. > > I came to know about Earth hour next day when large black blob on > front-page in a popular news-paper announced that 600 MW electricity > was saved because people switched off their lights and used candles > instead. > > While I congratulate all who were part of this experiment for being > sensitive towards 'mother earth'. I must add, it just makes you worst > offenders in robbing its resources by being ludicrously un-informed. > > The power that was not consumed, apparently was saved. Important > question is where? Did somebody hire batteries to be charged with the > 'saved' power. Because frankly any power which has not being consumed > in a power grid is wasted. Was NTPC or other power companies informed > that you need to produce less power during this time? > > On consumption part of the business, using candles is frankly more > polluting than consuming power from grid by order of four times, even > if power is produced using coal. This atleast makes people who > participated in 'Earth hour' worst offenders by not using up > electricity that has already been produced and using candles which > requires transport by trucks, lorries compared to relatively efficient > grids. > > Turning off unnecessary switches on day to day is all that is required. > > > Supreet > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > subscribe in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> From supreet.sethi at gmail.com Fri Apr 17 12:39:55 2009 From: supreet.sethi at gmail.com (s|s) Date: Fri, 17 Apr 2009 12:39:55 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Earth hour: Green stupidity/Romanticist aesthetics In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Fri, Apr 17, 2009 at 12:20 PM, Ravi Agarwal wrote: > Dear Supreet, > > While I appreciate your sentiment that one off, and token gestures may > amount to very little, even they claim to serve a laudable purpose, my > difficulty may be  different that yours. I think that thinking of mother > earth and nature as a flat unmediated commodity, without taking into account > its social and economic politics, leads us to believe that we are only > consumers of 'nature' and do not have a 'political' relationship with it. > That we can equally participate in climate change and turn the tide without > taking responsibility of our differential consumption patterns of energy. I > thing that like all 'soundbites' this too makes the issue simpler that what > it is. It seems the only way we can understand things now is like > 'consumers,' and the enent of turning off electricity is in that approach. > Meta soundbites! Its a Meta sound bite backed by WWF. No wonder when I type WWF, google takes me to World Wrestling Entertainment. Atleast they don't guilt trip people over unproven 'scientific' facts. > > As an aside,  electricity is not generated and put out to be consumed. An organization claiming > Generation is also demand dependent, since it 'loads' the generation > system. In India we are deficient and saving energy actually saves it, since > it other systems needing energy can draw on it. > I agree but with one caveat. If the deficiencies happens is at the same time as the surplus. This blitzkrieg of electricity asceticism does not account. > best > ravi agarwal > -- ~preet~ From kauladityaraj at gmail.com Fri Apr 17 12:44:07 2009 From: kauladityaraj at gmail.com (Aditya Raj Kaul) Date: Fri, 17 Apr 2009 12:44:07 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] =?windows-1252?q?Sajjad_Lone=92s_search_for_=91some?= =?windows-1252?q?thing=92_-_Praveen_Swami?= Message-ID: <6353c690904170014w63e9e09dn6eaac72a53a8a58d@mail.gmail.com> *Sajjad Lone’s search for ‘something’ * * Praveen Swami* * Sajjad Gani Lone’s decision to contest the Lok Sabha election marks a decisive moment in Kashmiri secessionist politics. * His hands firmly clamped on the Koran, Sajjad Gani Lone last year denied that he was secretly supporting the candidates contesting the elections to the Jammu and Kashmir Legislative Assembly. “He is a liar, a curse on our nation,” Mr. Lone said of the man who made the allegation — the Islamist patriarch, Syed Ali Shah Geelani. Less than six months later, though, the head of the secessionist People’s Conference has announced he will be contesting the Baramulla Lok Sabha constituency — a dramatic reversal of position for a man who, only in December, insisted that the 2008 elections were a triumph not for democracy but “the Indian gun.” “I will represent Kashmir in New Delhi,” Mr. Lone now says, “not New Delhi in Kashmir.” For Jammu and Kashmir’s crisis-mired secessionist movement, Mr. Lone’s decision poses fateful questions. Should the All-Parties Hurriyat Conference also demonstrate its legitimacy through electoral contest? Will Kashmir’s secessionists be able to forge tactical electoral alliances with pro-India groupings, necessary if they are ever to wield power? And ought secessionists negotiate a settlement with India rather than wait for Pakistan to do so on their behalf? Last summer, Jammu and Kashmir was torn apart by protests against the grant of land-use rights to the Shri Amarnath Shrine Board. Islamists led by Mr. Geelani claimed that the land-use rights would pave the way for the colonisation of ethnic-Kashmiri lands. Like most secessionists, Mr. Lone came to believe that the protests that followed were a mass uprising against Indian rule and decided to boycott the Assembly elections. But many People’s Conference-linked figures didn’t share that assessment. Among them was his sister, Shabnam Gani Lone, who contested from Kupwara. Ghulam Qadir Mir, a People’s Conference-backed independent, had lost the seat to the National Conference’s Mir Saifullah by only 132 votes in 2002. Another People’s Conference-backed independent, Ghulam Mohiuddin Sofi, won from Handwara and went on to become the State’s Forest Minister. Shabnam Lone didn’t win — but other People’s Conference leaders did well in an election which saw voters across rural Kashmir defy the secessionist boycott campaign. Abdul Rashid Sheikh, a long-time confidant of Abdul Gani Lone, used his credentials as a democratic rights campaigner and newspaper columnist to defeat the National Conference’s Sharif-ud-Din Shariq and the People’s Democratic Party’s Mohammad Sultan Pandit in Langate. “People have voted at a wrong time,” Mr. Lone ruefully said at a press conference in December, “but we cannot pretend nothing has happened.” Early in April, the Working Group of the People’s Conference leaders met to discuss the way forward. Leaders who had left the party because of its refusal to participate in the elections were invited to rejoin. Mr. Lone received the party’s support for his decision to contest the elections. Changing discourse Despite appearances, Mr. Lone’s decision to contest the Lok Sabha election isn’t surprising: indeed, its foundations were carefully built by secessionist leaders in and outside the Hurriyat over the last ten years. Early in 1997, the former head of the Jamaat-e-Islami — the parent organisation of the Hizb-ul-Mujahideen — criticised what he described as “gunculture.” In an interview to a Srinagar-based magazine soon after his release from prison, the then Jamaat chief, Ghulam Mohammad Bhat, called for “a political dialogue” to end the conflict in Jammu and Kashmir. By the summer of 1999, ideas like these had become increasingly widespread. In April that year, Hurriyat leader Abdul Gani Butt called for a dialogue between secessionist and pro-India political groups like the Congress and the National Conference. The outcome of this dialogue, he argued, would constitute the will of the people of the State. This could then be communicated to the governments of India and Pakistan — an idea remarkably similar to the dialogue process initiated by Prime Minister Manmohan Singh in 2005. In 2000, the Hurriyat centrists helped facilitate a unilateral ceasefire declared by dissident Hizb commander Abdul Majid Dar. Fearful that it would be left with no leverage in Jammu and Kashmir, Pakistan’s Inter-Services Intelligence Directorate soon derailed the ceasefire. Fate, though, was not on Islamabad’s side. Pakistan’s long-standing support of the jihad in Jammu and Kashmir became increasingly untenable in a world transfigured by the tragic events of September 11, 2001. Soon after, the hostilities that almost resulted from the Jaish-e-Mohammad’s strike on the Parliament House made clear the potential costs of Pakistan’s war-by-proxy strategy. Pakistan was compelled to cut back its support for the jihadist groups in Jammu and Kashmir. Mr. Lone’s father, Abdul Gani Lone, sought to use the new strategic landscape to push forward his efforts for a negotiated resolution of the conflict. In mid-April 2002, he travelled to Sharjah for discussions with the powerful Pakistan-administered Jammu and Kashmir leader, Sardar Abdul Qayoom Khan, and the then ISI chief, Lieutenant-General Ehsan-ul-Haq. He is believed to have told both men that the Hurriyat intended to open the way for a direct dialogue with New Delhi. “If the [Indian] government is not ready to allow self-determination,” Abdul Gani Lone said soon after the meeting, “the alternative is that it should be ready to settle the dispute through a meaningful dialogue involving all parties concerned.” Days after making that statement, Abdul Gani Lone was assassinated by a Lashkar-e-Taiba hit squad — a blunt message from the ISI to all those contemplating a deal with New Delhi that did not accommodate Pakistan’s interests. In 2004, Hurriyat leaders led by Mirwaiz Farooq met with Union Home Minister L.K. Advani, but their talks were purely formal in nature. Prime Minister Manmohan Singh held a fresh round of negotiations with the Hurriyat in 2005, but its leaders never delivered on the promises to come back with detailed proposals for discussions. Finally, in March 2006, APHC leaders promised mediators they would attend Prime Minister Singh’s second round table conference on Jammu and Kashmir but backed off after threats from the Hizb-ul-Mujahideen. Secret meetings New Delhi now focussed its energies on Pakistan — a course of action that it correctly believed would be more productive than talking to the fearful Hurriyat leadership. In secret meetings which began in 2005, Dr. Singh’s envoy, S.K. Lambah, and his Pakistani counterpart, Tariq Aziz, arrived at five points of convergence. First, the two men agreed, there would be no redrawing of the Line of Control. Second, they accepted that there would have to be greater political autonomy on both sides of Jammu and Kashmir. Mr. Lambah and Mr. Aziz also agreed that India would begin troops cuts in response to de-escalation of jihadist violence, co-operatively manage resources like watersheds and glaciers and, finally, open the LoC for travel and trade. “I think the agenda is pretty much set,” Mirwaiz Farooq told an interviewer in April 2007. “It is September, 2007,” he went on, “that India and Pakistan are looking at, in terms of announcing something on Kashmir”. The Hurriyat leaders hoped that the deal would hand them power. By the time Mr. Lambah and Mr. Aziz arrived at their five-point formula, though, Pakistan’s descent into the abyss was well under way. Before he was swept out of office, President Pervez Musharraf asked India to defer the dialogue on Jammu and Kashmir while he consolidated his domestic position. President Asif Ali Zardari later made clear that progress on Jammu and Kashmir was not something he was willing to risk the future of his beleaguered regime on. Early last summer, the Hurriyat leaders finally lost hope that an India-Pakistan deal was possible. Desperate, the secessionist coalition’s leadership reached out again to New Delhi. Mirwaiz Farooq signalled that the Hurriyat would not oppose the coming elections, while Mr. Butt called on the National Conference and the PDP to work with the secessionist formation to “mutually work out a joint settlement and present it to India and Pakistan.” For his part, Mr. Lone called for secessionist aspirations to be focussed on the “achievable.” “In between ‘everything’ and ‘nothing’,” Mr. Lone said, “the leadership has to consider ‘something’ as well.” Mr. Lone’s decision to contest the Lok Sabha election marks that first step towards the realisation of this so-far undefined “something”. Few observers believe the People’s Conference has an even chance of winning the Baramulla Lok Sabha seat, but the campaign will help rebuild the party apparatus and cadre. In time, the People’s Conference could also seek tactical alliances with formations like the PDP. Few in the Hurriyat Conference, unlike Mr. Lone, have a genuine mass constituency that could help propel them to power. Participation in elections will, therefore, be a high-risk exercise. But sitting on the sidelines could lead to political oblivion. Mirwaiz Farooq and his Hurriyat Conference colleagues will have to carefully consider the ever-shrinking options they are left with. *letters at thehindu.co.in* From kmvenuannur at gmail.com Fri Apr 17 15:17:40 2009 From: kmvenuannur at gmail.com (Venugopalan K M) Date: Fri, 17 Apr 2009 15:17:40 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Shameful Torture of 23 Muslims Prisoners on March 26-27 In Sabarmati Jail, Ahamedabad: A Report by Human Rights Activists Message-ID: <1f9180970904170247tb8cc85bk7048b05611c8a06d@mail.gmail.com> Dear Sir/Madam, Prelimanary Report of INDEPENDENT COMMITTEE ON INCIDENTS OF 26-27th MARCH 2009 IN SABARMATI JAIL, AHMEDABAD. *INDEPENDENT COMMITTEE ON INCIDENTS OF 26-27th MARCH 2009 IN SABARMATI JAIL, AHMEDABAD, GUJARAT* CAMP: People’s Union for Civil Liberties c/o Gandhi peace Foundation, Himavan, Paldi Char Rasta, Ahmadabad 380006 *PRESS NOTE* *AHMEDABAD, April 16, 2009* * * * * An Independent committee of senior national human rights activists has expressed its deep concern at the government handling of the beating up of 22 inmates of the Sabarmati Jail on 25 March 2009, and has called for a full enquiry, preferably a judicial one by a judge of the High Court, into gross violations of the Jail manual and human rights norms established by the Courts and the NHRC. Regrettably, the incident reinforces the image of Gujarat as a state where the human rights of religious minorities and weaker sections are not honoured. Inmates, most of them Muslim, who were on a hunger strike, were denied medical attention after a brutal attack on them by jail staff, which left at least three of them unconscious for so long as to start rumours in the city that they had died. They were subsequently denied access to counsel, their relatives were refused permission to meet them for three days, and then the Sabarmati Police station failed to register an FIR as sought by relatives and counsel of the victims. The independent committee consisted of Dr. John Dayal, Member, National Integration Council, Govt. of India, Adv. K. Kesavan, Joint Secretary, CPCL, Tamil Nadu, Dr. J. S. Bandukwala, President, PUCL, Gujarat, Dr. S. Q. R. Ilyas, Editor, Afkar-e-Milli, New Delhi, Mr. Gopal Menon, Film Maker, Bangalore, Mr. Mahtab Alam,Coordinator, Association for the Protection of Civil Rights (APCR), New Delhi, Ms. Harini Krishna, Film Maker, Mumbai, and Ms. Ruchi Shroff, Civil Rights Activist, Mumbai, Mr. Gautam Thakar, Secretary, Secretary, PUCL, Gujarat was in Ahmadabad from 15th to 16thApril 09. At a public hearing, the Committee heard statements from mothers, wives and sisters of the jail inmates who gave detailed narrative of the events in the jail as they had heard from the inmates when they were finally allowed to meet them. The women presented blood stained clothes of the inmates. Counsel gave the committee copies of the PIL filed in the Gujarat High Court, the medical report filed by two lawyers who had met the inmates in jail, as also correspondence with the jail and police authorities seeking justice and medical care for the injured. The committee made several efforts to approach the authorities. The committee in fact went to the Sabarmati jail and met Superintendent Chandrashekhar who refused permission to visit the concerned ward and meet the inmates. Inspector general of police Mr. Keshav Kumar, despite a written request followed up by repeated visits to his office and a telephone conversation with him would not find time for the committee. The visit to the Sabarmati Police station was an eye-opener where ACP Vaghela, SHO Joshi and Inspector Parmar all but justified the violence against the inmates saying they were criminals accused in Bomb blasts, and had indulged in violence in the Jail. The three officers admitted an FIR had been registered at the behest of the Jail authorities. They denied they had even received complaints from the families of the victims in this case. The investigating committee does not comment on the cases in which these 22 persons are in jail, or even on several other events that have taken place in the Sabarmati jail in recent weeks which go to show that all is not right with its administration. But it is clear from the testimony of the relatives of the victims and the admission of the police officers that the chain of events has been triggered off with the coming of the new Jail Superintendent who stopped long standing practices of taking ill and injured inmates to the civil hospital, provision of highly specialized medicine and curtailed other rights. It was in response to this that the prisoners went on a highly publicized hunger strike. The committee will submit a detailed report in a couple of weeks. But it is important to record its preliminary findings and recommendations. *Initial observation of the team * * * 1. *Beating of the Jail inmates are admitted in an affidavit filed by Jail authority.* 2. *Draconian jail manual laid down by the British is followed till date, even though parts of it are contradictory to our Constitution.* 3. *Advocates and relatives of the inmates were not allowed to meet for a long time, which is a serious violation of Prisoners’ Rights.* 4. *No FIR of the relatives has been registered till date.* 5. *Inspire of 22 prisoners suffering injuries, some of them being fractures, they were treated within the jail as our patients correctly, they should have been admitted to civil hospital. * * * *We demand that-* * * 1. *National Human Rights Commission should intervene on the issue and report to the Supreme Court.* 2. *Proper medical help should be given by the civil hospital. * 3. *PUCL Gujarat and Human Rights groups should be allowed to meet and gather first hand information. * * * * * Sd/- Dr John Dayal- 09811021072 Prof J S Badukwala Dr SQR Ilyas Mr. Gautam Thakar, Secretary, PUCL, Gujarat-09825382556 Released to the media for publication. regards, Mahtab MD. MAHTAB ALAM mdmahtaba... at gmail.com Phone:+ 91-9811209345 -- MD. MAHTAB ALAM mdmahtaba... at gmail.com Phone:+ 91-9811209345 Press Note ahmedabad 16 april 09.doc 41K View Download -- http://venukm.blogspot.com/ From vivek at sarai.net Fri Apr 17 16:21:09 2009 From: vivek at sarai.net (Vivek Narayanan) Date: Fri, 17 Apr 2009 16:21:09 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] TIMEBOOK In-Reply-To: <881753.63268.qm@web57208.mail.re3.yahoo.com> References: <881753.63268.qm@web57208.mail.re3.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <49E85F1D.4050404@sarai.net> Perhaps the title, "Timebook", might offer a way to read the work? Or would that just confound you further? Every reader is allowed the liberty of her own opinion, of course. cheers vivek Kshmendra Kaul wrote: > The visitor to the Art Gallery could not make head or tail of what was on display. Nor determine the position of either. > > Not wanting to appear foolish, he gazed studiously at each piece. He himself became a standing Rodin piece, deep in thought, fingers strategically placed under chin, on cheek-bone and across his lips, anchoring the up-tilt of his head. That also helped him from nodding off. > > Every now and then, he turned his eyes into slits, keenly peering through them as his head described the slightest of arcs in the air. Reverberating 'Hmmmmnnns' punctuated the dance. > > Then abruptly he hissed out a more than loud "Interesting", turned and walked off. > > The artist chastised the gallery attendant for not inviting the visitor to record his comments in the Guest Book > > > --- On Thu, 4/16/09, Monica Narula wrote: > > From: Monica Narula > Subject: [Reader-list] TIMEBOOK > To: reader-list at sarai.net > Date: Thursday, April 16, 2009, 4:21 PM > > Timebook > by > Raqs Media Collective > > Timebook is a vade mecum without words, a guide for all those > perplexed by the way that the ground constantly shifts beneath their > feet. It may be consulted by opening at random, and by reading the > patterns made by heat and time as signs with which to navigate the > elusive present. > > http://www.onestarpress.com/Time-Book > > The book is best "read" in double page PDF view. > > Monica Narula > Raqs Media Collective > Sarai-CSDS > www.raqsmediacollective.net > www.sarai.net > > > > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with subscribe in > the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> > > > > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with subscribe in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> From c.anupam at gmail.com Fri Apr 17 17:32:11 2009 From: c.anupam at gmail.com (anupam chakravartty) Date: Fri, 17 Apr 2009 17:32:11 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] What is foreign? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <341380d00904170502t2f452e9ey26522f20921f09bd@mail.gmail.com> Its a hand :) On 4/16/09, Jeebesh wrote: > > dear Pawan and others, > > Lot of the discussion here is based around an anxiety on something > called "foreign". It is at times used like a discursive missile :) > > Can you please take some time to explain what you mean by foreign and > why are you so anxious about it? > > warmly > jeebesh > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > subscribe in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> From kauladityaraj at gmail.com Fri Apr 17 17:35:34 2009 From: kauladityaraj at gmail.com (Aditya Raj Kaul) Date: Fri, 17 Apr 2009 17:35:34 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Varun tortured in jail: BJP Message-ID: <6353c690904170505u211ef84fj9167183c8f9c6627@mail.gmail.com> Varun tortured in jail: BJP *Press Trust Of India*New Delhi, April 17, 2009 Alleging he was a victim of "vendetta politics", the BJP on Friday claimed that Varun Gandhi was tortured in jail, but he has emerged as a "strong man". "Varun Gandhi is a victim of the vendetta politics of Sonia Gandhi and Mayawati in Uttar Pradesh. He has come out (from jail) as a strong man. He will file his nomination papers from Pilibhit on April 21," party spokesperson Balbir Punj told reporters in New Delhi on Saturday. Punj, who briefed the media after holding discussions with Varun at his residence said, "Varun Gandhi has assured that he will continue to work for the party with the same energy and zeal despite all this". The young leader will also campaign in other parts of the country for the party apart from his own constituency, he said. The BJP spokesperson also called upon his party colleagues and candidates to "show restrain" in their speeches. Varun, was released on a two-week parole by the Supreme Court after spending more than a week in Etah Jail after being booked under National Security Act by the Uttar Pradesh government for his alleged hate speeches. From c.anupam at gmail.com Fri Apr 17 17:45:52 2009 From: c.anupam at gmail.com (anupam chakravartty) Date: Fri, 17 Apr 2009 17:45:52 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Varun tortured in jail: BJP In-Reply-To: <6353c690904170505u211ef84fj9167183c8f9c6627@mail.gmail.com> References: <6353c690904170505u211ef84fj9167183c8f9c6627@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <341380d00904170515i5d513a91t5da51fc6d7478e07@mail.gmail.com> Oh so sad. i hope he was not sterilised. On 4/17/09, Aditya Raj Kaul wrote: > > Varun tortured in jail: BJP > *Press Trust Of India*New Delhi, April 17, 2009 > > Alleging he was a victim of "vendetta politics", the BJP on Friday claimed > that Varun Gandhi was tortured in jail, but he has emerged as a "strong > man". > > "Varun Gandhi is a victim of the vendetta politics of Sonia Gandhi and > Mayawati in Uttar Pradesh. He has come out (from jail) as a strong man. He > will file his nomination papers from Pilibhit on April 21," party > spokesperson Balbir Punj told reporters in New Delhi on Saturday. > > Punj, who briefed the media after holding discussions with Varun at his > residence said, "Varun Gandhi has assured that he will continue to work for > the party with the same energy and zeal despite all this". > > The young leader will also campaign in other parts of the country for the > party apart from his own constituency, he said. > > The BJP spokesperson also called upon his party colleagues and candidates > to > "show restrain" in their speeches. > > Varun, was released on a two-week parole by the Supreme Court after > spending > more than a week in Etah Jail after being booked under National Security > Act > by the Uttar Pradesh government for his alleged hate speeches. > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > subscribe in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> From bangalorefilmsociety at gmail.com Fri Apr 17 17:48:25 2009 From: bangalorefilmsociety at gmail.com (Bangalore Film Society ,) Date: Fri, 17 Apr 2009 17:48:25 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Voices from the Waters 2009: Call for Entries In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: *Call For Entries* *Voices from the Waters 2009* *4th International Water Film Festival, Bangalore* * * Bangalore Film Society, Arghyam, Svaraj- Society for Voluntary Action Revitalization and Justice, Finger Lakes Environmental Film Festival, Ithaca College, USA (FLEFF) Mountainfilm in Telluride, USA, Alliance Francaise de Bangalore, Charter of Human Responsibilities and Water Journeys - Campaign for Fundamental Right to Water are organizing the fourth edition of the biggest international film festival on water- Voices from the Waters 2009 from Friday 4th September, 2009 to Monday 7th September, 2009. Established in 2005 to promote among the public an awareness of the myriad water-issues affecting our everyday lives either directly or indirectly and as a platform for alternate voices and views rarely heard in mainstream, Voices from the Waters started as a Bangalore-based Environmental Film Festival and over the 2007 and 2008 editions grew to be one of the largest, most diverse and dynamic platforms of debate, dialogue and celebration of the precious resource, the blue gold, life itself - water. We invite you to be a part of the festival by contributing short, documentary, animation and feature films (DVD format only) with English subtitles on water and related issues. *If you have a film in under any of the following categories:* 1. Water Scarcity, 2. The Dams and the Displaced, 3. Water Harvest, 4. Water Struggles/conflicts, 5. Floods and Droughts, 6. Global Warming and Climate Change, 7. Impact of Deforestation on Water Bodies, 8. Water, Sanitation and health, 9. River Pollution, 10. The Holistic Revival of Water Bodies, 11. Water and Life You can consider sending it to us. Please note that the categories are loosely conceived and your film does not have to necessarily adhere to them while focusing on the larger theme of water. Please find the entry form at www.voicesfromthewaters.com *Submission Deadline: 31st July 2009* *Guidelines:* Entries to the Film Festival must include 1. DVD of the film (with English subtitles, if required) 2. A completed and signed copy of the entry form 3. 3 high-resolution stills of the film (can be sent via email) 4. A high-resolution photograph of the director (can be sent via email) Promotional materials are welcome. There is no entry fee. All submitted films will be subject to a selection process by eminent members of the festival jury. Applicant must pay for shipment of films to Voices from the Waters. Submitted films will not be returned but will be part of Voices from the Waters library, one of the largest resources in the world for films on water. Voices from the Waters is conceived as a traveling film festival. The selected films after being premiered in Bangalore at the main event will be taken across to educational institutions, non governmental organizations, small towns and villages across India. From pawan.durani at gmail.com Fri Apr 17 18:37:52 2009 From: pawan.durani at gmail.com (Pawan Durani) Date: Fri, 17 Apr 2009 18:37:52 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Varun tortured in jail: BJP In-Reply-To: <341380d00904170515i5d513a91t5da51fc6d7478e07@mail.gmail.com> References: <6353c690904170505u211ef84fj9167183c8f9c6627@mail.gmail.com> <341380d00904170515i5d513a91t5da51fc6d7478e07@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <6b79f1a70904170607v100cfc13u2b0ee069d9b230bb@mail.gmail.com> You may personally get it verified . On Fri, Apr 17, 2009 at 5:45 PM, anupam chakravartty wrote: > Oh so sad. i hope he was not sterilised. > On 4/17/09, Aditya Raj Kaul wrote: > > > > Varun tortured in jail: BJP > > *Press Trust Of India*New Delhi, April 17, 2009 > > > > Alleging he was a victim of "vendetta politics", the BJP on Friday > claimed > > that Varun Gandhi was tortured in jail, but he has emerged as a "strong > > man". > > > > "Varun Gandhi is a victim of the vendetta politics of Sonia Gandhi and > > Mayawati in Uttar Pradesh. He has come out (from jail) as a strong man. > He > > will file his nomination papers from Pilibhit on April 21," party > > spokesperson Balbir Punj told reporters in New Delhi on Saturday. > > > > Punj, who briefed the media after holding discussions with Varun at his > > residence said, "Varun Gandhi has assured that he will continue to work > for > > the party with the same energy and zeal despite all this". > > > > The young leader will also campaign in other parts of the country for the > > party apart from his own constituency, he said. > > > > The BJP spokesperson also called upon his party colleagues and candidates > > to > > "show restrain" in their speeches. > > > > Varun, was released on a two-week parole by the Supreme Court after > > spending > > more than a week in Etah Jail after being booked under National Security > > Act > > by the Uttar Pradesh government for his alleged hate speeches. > > _________________________________________ > > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > > Critiques & Collaborations > > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > > subscribe in the subject header. > > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > subscribe in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> > From c.anupam at gmail.com Fri Apr 17 18:41:12 2009 From: c.anupam at gmail.com (anupam chakravartty) Date: Fri, 17 Apr 2009 18:41:12 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Varun tortured in jail: BJP In-Reply-To: <6b79f1a70904170607v100cfc13u2b0ee069d9b230bb@mail.gmail.com> References: <6353c690904170505u211ef84fj9167183c8f9c6627@mail.gmail.com> <341380d00904170515i5d513a91t5da51fc6d7478e07@mail.gmail.com> <6b79f1a70904170607v100cfc13u2b0ee069d9b230bb@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <341380d00904170611k5941e6dfg9d67e59087b93e15@mail.gmail.com> looks like you got verified it just now pawan. On 4/17/09, Pawan Durani wrote: > > You may personally get it verified . > > > > > On Fri, Apr 17, 2009 at 5:45 PM, anupam chakravartty wrote: > >> Oh so sad. i hope he was not sterilised. >> On 4/17/09, Aditya Raj Kaul wrote: >> > >> > Varun tortured in jail: BJP >> > *Press Trust Of India*New Delhi, April 17, 2009 >> > >> > Alleging he was a victim of "vendetta politics", the BJP on Friday >> claimed >> > that Varun Gandhi was tortured in jail, but he has emerged as a "strong >> > man". >> > >> > "Varun Gandhi is a victim of the vendetta politics of Sonia Gandhi and >> > Mayawati in Uttar Pradesh. He has come out (from jail) as a strong man. >> He >> > will file his nomination papers from Pilibhit on April 21," party >> > spokesperson Balbir Punj told reporters in New Delhi on Saturday. >> > >> > Punj, who briefed the media after holding discussions with Varun at his >> > residence said, "Varun Gandhi has assured that he will continue to work >> for >> > the party with the same energy and zeal despite all this". >> > >> > The young leader will also campaign in other parts of the country for >> the >> > party apart from his own constituency, he said. >> > >> > The BJP spokesperson also called upon his party colleagues and >> candidates >> > to >> > "show restrain" in their speeches. >> > >> > Varun, was released on a two-week parole by the Supreme Court after >> > spending >> > more than a week in Etah Jail after being booked under National Security >> > Act >> > by the Uttar Pradesh government for his alleged hate speeches. >> > _________________________________________ >> > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. >> > Critiques & Collaborations >> > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with >> > subscribe in the subject header. >> > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list >> > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> >> _________________________________________ >> reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. >> Critiques & Collaborations >> To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with >> subscribe in the subject header. >> To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list >> List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> >> > > From kauladityaraj at gmail.com Fri Apr 17 18:44:06 2009 From: kauladityaraj at gmail.com (Aditya Raj Kaul) Date: Fri, 17 Apr 2009 18:44:06 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Varun tortured in jail: BJP In-Reply-To: <341380d00904170515i5d513a91t5da51fc6d7478e07@mail.gmail.com> References: <6353c690904170505u211ef84fj9167183c8f9c6627@mail.gmail.com> <341380d00904170515i5d513a91t5da51fc6d7478e07@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <6353c690904170614j1bbd701eu4ddf6fd2ea894368@mail.gmail.com> Anupam.. were you at some point of time in the past ? Just curious. On Fri, Apr 17, 2009 at 5:45 PM, anupam chakravartty wrote: > Oh so sad. i hope he was not sterilised. > On 4/17/09, Aditya Raj Kaul wrote: > > > > Varun tortured in jail: BJP > > *Press Trust Of India*New Delhi, April 17, 2009 > > > > Alleging he was a victim of "vendetta politics", the BJP on Friday > claimed > > that Varun Gandhi was tortured in jail, but he has emerged as a "strong > > man". > > > > "Varun Gandhi is a victim of the vendetta politics of Sonia Gandhi and > > Mayawati in Uttar Pradesh. He has come out (from jail) as a strong man. > He > > will file his nomination papers from Pilibhit on April 21," party > > spokesperson Balbir Punj told reporters in New Delhi on Saturday. > > > > Punj, who briefed the media after holding discussions with Varun at his > > residence said, "Varun Gandhi has assured that he will continue to work > for > > the party with the same energy and zeal despite all this". > > > > The young leader will also campaign in other parts of the country for the > > party apart from his own constituency, he said. > > > > The BJP spokesperson also called upon his party colleagues and candidates > > to > > "show restrain" in their speeches. > > > > Varun, was released on a two-week parole by the Supreme Court after > > spending > > more than a week in Etah Jail after being booked under National Security > > Act > > by the Uttar Pradesh government for his alleged hate speeches. > > _________________________________________ > > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > > Critiques & Collaborations > > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > > subscribe in the subject header. > > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > subscribe in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> -- Aditya Raj Kaul From c.anupam at gmail.com Fri Apr 17 18:55:37 2009 From: c.anupam at gmail.com (anupam chakravartty) Date: Fri, 17 Apr 2009 18:55:37 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Varun tortured in jail: BJP In-Reply-To: <6353c690904170614j1bbd701eu4ddf6fd2ea894368@mail.gmail.com> References: <6353c690904170505u211ef84fj9167183c8f9c6627@mail.gmail.com> <341380d00904170515i5d513a91t5da51fc6d7478e07@mail.gmail.com> <6353c690904170614j1bbd701eu4ddf6fd2ea894368@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <341380d00904170625p1a20f14bt6b904e097733d71f@mail.gmail.com> why am i being asked so many questions...i feel bad about varun gandhi. that's all. and i sincerely hope that he was not sterilised dog. as you he claims that he is a hindu, indian and gandhi, so if we go by all of that, he is immune but if he was really touched and you know frisked around, that's really sad. as for you, aditya my being in past, present or future doesnt really apply here. so please. On 4/17/09, Aditya Raj Kaul wrote: > > Anupam.. were you at some point of time in the past ? Just curious. > > On Fri, Apr 17, 2009 at 5:45 PM, anupam chakravartty >wrote: > > > Oh so sad. i hope he was not sterilised. > > On 4/17/09, Aditya Raj Kaul wrote: > > > > > > Varun tortured in jail: BJP > > > *Press Trust Of India*New Delhi, April 17, 2009 > > > > > > Alleging he was a victim of "vendetta politics", the BJP on Friday > > claimed > > > that Varun Gandhi was tortured in jail, but he has emerged as a "strong > > > man". > > > > > > "Varun Gandhi is a victim of the vendetta politics of Sonia Gandhi and > > > Mayawati in Uttar Pradesh. He has come out (from jail) as a strong man. > > He > > > will file his nomination papers from Pilibhit on April 21," party > > > spokesperson Balbir Punj told reporters in New Delhi on Saturday. > > > > > > Punj, who briefed the media after holding discussions with Varun at his > > > residence said, "Varun Gandhi has assured that he will continue to work > > for > > > the party with the same energy and zeal despite all this". > > > > > > The young leader will also campaign in other parts of the country for > the > > > party apart from his own constituency, he said. > > > > > > The BJP spokesperson also called upon his party colleagues and > candidates > > > to > > > "show restrain" in their speeches. > > > > > > Varun, was released on a two-week parole by the Supreme Court after > > > spending > > > more than a week in Etah Jail after being booked under National > Security > > > Act > > > by the Uttar Pradesh government for his alleged hate speeches. > > > _________________________________________ > > > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > > > Critiques & Collaborations > > > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > > > subscribe in the subject header. > > > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > > > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> > > _________________________________________ > > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > > Critiques & Collaborations > > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > > subscribe in the subject header. > > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> > > > > > -- > Aditya Raj Kaul > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > subscribe in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> From kauladityaraj at gmail.com Fri Apr 17 19:05:32 2009 From: kauladityaraj at gmail.com (Aditya Raj Kaul) Date: Fri, 17 Apr 2009 19:05:32 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Varun tortured in jail: BJP In-Reply-To: <341380d00904170625p1a20f14bt6b904e097733d71f@mail.gmail.com> References: <6353c690904170505u211ef84fj9167183c8f9c6627@mail.gmail.com> <341380d00904170515i5d513a91t5da51fc6d7478e07@mail.gmail.com> <6353c690904170614j1bbd701eu4ddf6fd2ea894368@mail.gmail.com> <341380d00904170625p1a20f14bt6b904e097733d71f@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <6353c690904170635q8d24576tf75ab85fc1120911@mail.gmail.com> well it really does dearest anupam.. you know your past really shapes your present actions.. And we can see that well enough.. ...questions are asked 'coz of some insane one liners which is if I get the permission to remind you not really encouraged here on this forum..! so please.. On Fri, Apr 17, 2009 at 6:55 PM, anupam chakravartty wrote: > why am i being asked so many questions...i feel bad about varun gandhi. > that's all. and i sincerely hope that he was not sterilised dog. as you he > claims that he is a hindu, indian and gandhi, so if we go by all of that, > he > is immune but if he was really touched and you know frisked around, that's > really sad. > > as for you, aditya my being in past, present or future doesnt really apply > here. so please. > > > On 4/17/09, Aditya Raj Kaul wrote: > > > > Anupam.. were you at some point of time in the past ? Just curious. > > > > On Fri, Apr 17, 2009 at 5:45 PM, anupam chakravartty > >wrote: > > > > > Oh so sad. i hope he was not sterilised. > > > On 4/17/09, Aditya Raj Kaul wrote: > > > > > > > > Varun tortured in jail: BJP > > > > *Press Trust Of India*New Delhi, April 17, 2009 > > > > > > > > Alleging he was a victim of "vendetta politics", the BJP on Friday > > > claimed > > > > that Varun Gandhi was tortured in jail, but he has emerged as a > "strong > > > > man". > > > > > > > > "Varun Gandhi is a victim of the vendetta politics of Sonia Gandhi > and > > > > Mayawati in Uttar Pradesh. He has come out (from jail) as a strong > man. > > > He > > > > will file his nomination papers from Pilibhit on April 21," party > > > > spokesperson Balbir Punj told reporters in New Delhi on Saturday. > > > > > > > > Punj, who briefed the media after holding discussions with Varun at > his > > > > residence said, "Varun Gandhi has assured that he will continue to > work > > > for > > > > the party with the same energy and zeal despite all this". > > > > > > > > The young leader will also campaign in other parts of the country for > > the > > > > party apart from his own constituency, he said. > > > > > > > > The BJP spokesperson also called upon his party colleagues and > > candidates > > > > to > > > > "show restrain" in their speeches. > > > > > > > > Varun, was released on a two-week parole by the Supreme Court after > > > > spending > > > > more than a week in Etah Jail after being booked under National > > Security > > > > Act > > > > by the Uttar Pradesh government for his alleged hate speeches. > > > > _________________________________________ > > > > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > > > > Critiques & Collaborations > > > > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > > > > subscribe in the subject header. > > > > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > > > > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> > > > _________________________________________ > > > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > > > Critiques & Collaborations > > > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > > > subscribe in the subject header. > > > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > > > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> > > > > > > > > > > -- > > Aditya Raj Kaul > > _________________________________________ > > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > > Critiques & Collaborations > > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > > subscribe in the subject header. > > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > subscribe in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> > From rakesh.rnbdj at gmail.com Fri Apr 17 19:15:22 2009 From: rakesh.rnbdj at gmail.com (Rakesh Iyer) Date: Fri, 17 Apr 2009 19:15:22 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] A Modest Appeal to Election Propagandists In-Reply-To: <800805.10464.qm@web51404.mail.re2.yahoo.com> References: <005a01c9be7b$3a5d7cf0$0201a8c0@limo> <800805.10464.qm@web51404.mail.re2.yahoo.com> Message-ID: Dear Jerome I doubt if there is anything as original point of view. Even Gandhi never said his ideas were original. He stated he had borrowed his ideas from people like Tolstoy and even Hindu religion. Nelson Mandela, another great figure borrowed his ideas from Gandhi, which he acknowledges himself. Similarly, there are others who state their ideas as actually having heard them from others. Therefore, I believe it is not important that views are original. Original ideas should definitely be appreciated, and if people genuinely believe in their ideas, irrespective of theirs being genuine or not, they should be allowed to put them forth and discuss. After all, not all people can be original, it takes the genius of people like Einstein or some others to bring about original and innovative ideas. Don't view people as spokespersons here, neither brand them necessarily as ideologist.And I apologize on this forum for doing this in the past. Regards Rakesh From rakesh.rnbdj at gmail.com Fri Apr 17 19:18:38 2009 From: rakesh.rnbdj at gmail.com (Rakesh Iyer) Date: Fri, 17 Apr 2009 19:18:38 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Varun tortured in jail: BJP In-Reply-To: <6353c690904170635q8d24576tf75ab85fc1120911@mail.gmail.com> References: <6353c690904170505u211ef84fj9167183c8f9c6627@mail.gmail.com> <341380d00904170515i5d513a91t5da51fc6d7478e07@mail.gmail.com> <6353c690904170614j1bbd701eu4ddf6fd2ea894368@mail.gmail.com> <341380d00904170625p1a20f14bt6b904e097733d71f@mail.gmail.com> <6353c690904170635q8d24576tf75ab85fc1120911@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: Dear all Again an article on Varun Gandhi has now been turned into a slanging match between the Kaul-Durrani (-possible Bipin as well) combo on one hand and the Anupam (- possible others) combo on the other. This is not the way to bring about discussions. We have been talking about falling standards of discussions and debates in the Parliament; what about the falling standards of discussions in Sarai list, Shuddha jee? And others? This is the place to discuss and debate serious issues, rather than taking potshots at each other. And please, if you have already pre-determined that you are going to stick to your positions, then let us not discuss, for any discussion then would lead only towards argumentativeness. Regards Rakesh From c.anupam at gmail.com Fri Apr 17 19:21:34 2009 From: c.anupam at gmail.com (anupam chakravartty) Date: Fri, 17 Apr 2009 19:21:34 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Varun tortured in jail: BJP In-Reply-To: <6353c690904170635q8d24576tf75ab85fc1120911@mail.gmail.com> References: <6353c690904170505u211ef84fj9167183c8f9c6627@mail.gmail.com> <341380d00904170515i5d513a91t5da51fc6d7478e07@mail.gmail.com> <6353c690904170614j1bbd701eu4ddf6fd2ea894368@mail.gmail.com> <341380d00904170625p1a20f14bt6b904e097733d71f@mail.gmail.com> <6353c690904170635q8d24576tf75ab85fc1120911@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <341380d00904170651p6a822c95u4e401d6b7e3782f9@mail.gmail.com> Who is 'we' here? are you threatening me? i hardly could care less. didnt you people are into name calling these days? varun is the best example. anyway..let me clarify..since you said dear varun who was tortured so badly in the jail as per the piece of news you posted here to prove your allegiances to a political party, i asked you was he sterilised like a dog? you could have replied in yes or no. you do not know anything about my past, so kindly keep away.by the way, varun is your friend? oh im very sorry for him. just make sure that he is alright ok? i just hope he was not sterilised. that would be such a loss to the country. so many like him would not be born. so many like him would not say that he is a hindu, indian and what was the last one...gandhi. poor varun. he could have just really gone back to london to get his real degree, but then he is a courageous young man. he wanted to do a pravin togadia and someone told me, he thought, that indians would make a t-shirt out of him. but yeah all those things now are gone. he will probably be in the same league as rahul mahajan -- the saffron kids gone wrong club -- attending laughter challenges. he would be really laughing. i am amazed by him. oh varun gandhi, i wish you hadnt lied about the LSE degree. On 4/17/09, Aditya Raj Kaul wrote: > > well it really does dearest anupam.. you know your past really shapes your > present actions.. > > And we can see that well enough.. > > ...questions are asked 'coz of some insane one liners which is if I get the > permission to remind you not really encouraged here on this forum..! > > so please.. > > On Fri, Apr 17, 2009 at 6:55 PM, anupam chakravartty >wrote: > > > why am i being asked so many questions...i feel bad about varun gandhi. > > that's all. and i sincerely hope that he was not sterilised dog. as you > he > > claims that he is a hindu, indian and gandhi, so if we go by all of that, > > he > > is immune but if he was really touched and you know frisked around, > that's > > really sad. > > > > as for you, aditya my being in past, present or future doesnt really > apply > > here. so please. > > > > > > On 4/17/09, Aditya Raj Kaul wrote: > > > > > > Anupam.. were you at some point of time in the past ? Just curious. > > > > > > On Fri, Apr 17, 2009 at 5:45 PM, anupam chakravartty < > c.anupam at gmail.com > > > >wrote: > > > > > > > Oh so sad. i hope he was not sterilised. > > > > On 4/17/09, Aditya Raj Kaul wrote: > > > > > > > > > > Varun tortured in jail: BJP > > > > > *Press Trust Of India*New Delhi, April 17, 2009 > > > > > > > > > > Alleging he was a victim of "vendetta politics", the BJP on Friday > > > > claimed > > > > > that Varun Gandhi was tortured in jail, but he has emerged as a > > "strong > > > > > man". > > > > > > > > > > "Varun Gandhi is a victim of the vendetta politics of Sonia Gandhi > > and > > > > > Mayawati in Uttar Pradesh. He has come out (from jail) as a strong > > man. > > > > He > > > > > will file his nomination papers from Pilibhit on April 21," party > > > > > spokesperson Balbir Punj told reporters in New Delhi on Saturday. > > > > > > > > > > Punj, who briefed the media after holding discussions with Varun at > > his > > > > > residence said, "Varun Gandhi has assured that he will continue to > > work > > > > for > > > > > the party with the same energy and zeal despite all this". > > > > > > > > > > The young leader will also campaign in other parts of the country > for > > > the > > > > > party apart from his own constituency, he said. > > > > > > > > > > The BJP spokesperson also called upon his party colleagues and > > > candidates > > > > > to > > > > > "show restrain" in their speeches. > > > > > > > > > > Varun, was released on a two-week parole by the Supreme Court after > > > > > spending > > > > > more than a week in Etah Jail after being booked under National > > > Security > > > > > Act > > > > > by the Uttar Pradesh government for his alleged hate speeches. > > > > > _________________________________________ > > > > > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > > > > > Critiques & Collaborations > > > > > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > > > > > subscribe in the subject header. > > > > > To unsubscribe: > https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > > > > > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> > > > > _________________________________________ > > > > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > > > > Critiques & Collaborations > > > > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > > > > subscribe in the subject header. > > > > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > > > > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > -- > > > Aditya Raj Kaul > > > _________________________________________ > > > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > > > Critiques & Collaborations > > > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > > > subscribe in the subject header. > > > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > > > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> > > _________________________________________ > > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > > Critiques & Collaborations > > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > > subscribe in the subject header. > > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> > > > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > subscribe in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> From rakesh.rnbdj at gmail.com Fri Apr 17 19:23:04 2009 From: rakesh.rnbdj at gmail.com (Rakesh Iyer) Date: Fri, 17 Apr 2009 19:23:04 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Shameful Torture of 23 Muslims Prisoners on March 26-27 In Sabarmati Jail, Ahamedabad: A Report by Human Rights Activists In-Reply-To: <1f9180970904170247tb8cc85bk7048b05611c8a06d@mail.gmail.com> References: <1f9180970904170247tb8cc85bk7048b05611c8a06d@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: Dear Venu jee While beating of any prisoner unnecessarily is certainly deplorable, one should be careful to put up the subject as well. The article says that 22 prisoners are there, and most of them are Muslim. While the subject claims there are 23 Muslims. With the kind of nation and the kind of people on this forum, there would be huge debate and problems. Hence, I request you to kindly put up correct info as the subject. Secondly, while Muslims may be mistreated, that should not be the larger issue. The larger issues here are: 1) Are Muslims mistreated because of their religion? Or is it the case with every prisoner irrespective of their religion? 2) If the former is the case, what are the biased opinions of the jail staff? If the latter is the case, then what are the opinions of the jail staff? In other words, why are they mistreated? 3) Last but not the least, what has been done to check such abuses? Regards Rakesh From c.anupam at gmail.com Fri Apr 17 19:25:21 2009 From: c.anupam at gmail.com (anupam chakravartty) Date: Fri, 17 Apr 2009 19:25:21 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Varun tortured in jail: BJP In-Reply-To: <341380d00904170651p6a822c95u4e401d6b7e3782f9@mail.gmail.com> References: <6353c690904170505u211ef84fj9167183c8f9c6627@mail.gmail.com> <341380d00904170515i5d513a91t5da51fc6d7478e07@mail.gmail.com> <6353c690904170614j1bbd701eu4ddf6fd2ea894368@mail.gmail.com> <341380d00904170625p1a20f14bt6b904e097733d71f@mail.gmail.com> <6353c690904170635q8d24576tf75ab85fc1120911@mail.gmail.com> <341380d00904170651p6a822c95u4e401d6b7e3782f9@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <341380d00904170655v174fe85p2bd75142c2e9723c@mail.gmail.com> Dear All, kindly take this as my reaction to a news item published by aditya raj kaul because it was posted for my viewing. im expressing only those emotion which have occured to me instantly after reading this piece. so please bear it and like you all bear such pieces of information. thanking you anupam On 4/17/09, anupam chakravartty wrote: > > Who is 'we' here? are you threatening me? i hardly could care less. didnt > you people are into name calling these days? varun is the best example. > > anyway..let me clarify..since you said dear varun who was tortured so badly > in the jail as per the piece of news you posted here to prove your > allegiances to a political party, i asked you was he sterilised like a dog? > you could have replied in yes or no. > > you do not know anything about my past, so kindly keep away.by the way, > varun is your friend? oh im very sorry for him. just make sure that he is > alright ok? > > i just hope he was not sterilised. that would be such a loss to the > country. so many like him would not be born. so many like him would not say > that he is a hindu, indian and what was the last one...gandhi. poor varun. > he could have just really gone back to london to get his real degree, but > then he is a courageous young man. he wanted to do a pravin togadia and > someone told me, he thought, that indians would make a t-shirt out of him. > but yeah all those things now are gone. he will probably be in the same > league as rahul mahajan -- the saffron kids gone wrong club -- attending > laughter challenges. he would be really laughing. i am amazed by him. oh > varun gandhi, i wish you hadnt lied about the LSE degree. > > > On 4/17/09, Aditya Raj Kaul wrote: >> >> well it really does dearest anupam.. you know your past really shapes your >> present actions.. >> >> And we can see that well enough.. >> >> ...questions are asked 'coz of some insane one liners which is if I get >> the >> permission to remind you not really encouraged here on this forum..! >> >> so please.. >> >> On Fri, Apr 17, 2009 at 6:55 PM, anupam chakravartty > >wrote: >> >> > why am i being asked so many questions...i feel bad about varun gandhi. >> > that's all. and i sincerely hope that he was not sterilised dog. as you >> he >> > claims that he is a hindu, indian and gandhi, so if we go by all of >> that, >> > he >> > is immune but if he was really touched and you know frisked around, >> that's >> > really sad. >> > >> > as for you, aditya my being in past, present or future doesnt really >> apply >> > here. so please. >> > >> > >> > On 4/17/09, Aditya Raj Kaul wrote: >> > > >> > > Anupam.. were you at some point of time in the past ? Just curious. >> > > >> > > On Fri, Apr 17, 2009 at 5:45 PM, anupam chakravartty < >> c.anupam at gmail.com >> > > >wrote: >> > > >> > > > Oh so sad. i hope he was not sterilised. >> > > > On 4/17/09, Aditya Raj Kaul wrote: >> > > > > >> > > > > Varun tortured in jail: BJP >> > > > > *Press Trust Of India*New Delhi, April 17, 2009 >> > > > > >> > > > > Alleging he was a victim of "vendetta politics", the BJP on Friday >> > > > claimed >> > > > > that Varun Gandhi was tortured in jail, but he has emerged as a >> > "strong >> > > > > man". >> > > > > >> > > > > "Varun Gandhi is a victim of the vendetta politics of Sonia Gandhi >> > and >> > > > > Mayawati in Uttar Pradesh. He has come out (from jail) as a strong >> > man. >> > > > He >> > > > > will file his nomination papers from Pilibhit on April 21," party >> > > > > spokesperson Balbir Punj told reporters in New Delhi on Saturday. >> > > > > >> > > > > Punj, who briefed the media after holding discussions with Varun >> at >> > his >> > > > > residence said, "Varun Gandhi has assured that he will continue to >> > work >> > > > for >> > > > > the party with the same energy and zeal despite all this". >> > > > > >> > > > > The young leader will also campaign in other parts of the country >> for >> > > the >> > > > > party apart from his own constituency, he said. >> > > > > >> > > > > The BJP spokesperson also called upon his party colleagues and >> > > candidates >> > > > > to >> > > > > "show restrain" in their speeches. >> > > > > >> > > > > Varun, was released on a two-week parole by the Supreme Court >> after >> > > > > spending >> > > > > more than a week in Etah Jail after being booked under National >> > > Security >> > > > > Act >> > > > > by the Uttar Pradesh government for his alleged hate speeches. >> > > > > _________________________________________ >> > > > > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. >> > > > > Critiques & Collaborations >> > > > > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with >> > > > > subscribe in the subject header. >> > > > > To unsubscribe: >> https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list >> > > > > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> >> > > > _________________________________________ >> > > > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. >> > > > Critiques & Collaborations >> > > > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with >> > > > subscribe in the subject header. >> > > > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list >> > > > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > > -- >> > > Aditya Raj Kaul >> > > _________________________________________ >> > > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. >> > > Critiques & Collaborations >> > > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with >> > > subscribe in the subject header. >> > > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list >> > > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> >> > _________________________________________ >> > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. >> > Critiques & Collaborations >> > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with >> > subscribe in the subject header. >> > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list >> > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> >> > >> _________________________________________ >> reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. >> Critiques & Collaborations >> To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with >> subscribe in the subject header. >> To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list >> List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> > > > From pkray11 at gmail.com Fri Apr 17 19:34:51 2009 From: pkray11 at gmail.com (prakash ray) Date: Fri, 17 Apr 2009 19:34:51 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Varun tortured in jail: BJP Message-ID: <98f331e00904170704s72ac859cu7f0ccb03e77b5285@mail.gmail.com> OH!! POOR BOY!!! UP POLICE DOWN DOWN!!! PKR From rahul_capri at yahoo.com Fri Apr 17 19:40:17 2009 From: rahul_capri at yahoo.com (Rahul Asthana) Date: Fri, 17 Apr 2009 07:10:17 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Reader-list] Muslims in Ramadhan & 51 Shakti Peeths In-Reply-To: <529601.74624.qm@web57206.mail.re3.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <634056.36743.qm@web53609.mail.re2.yahoo.com> Dear Kshamendra, That's a very thought provoking post. As we can expect,there are no simplistic conclusions to be drawn from this.This does not put forward any doctrinal argument in favor of, or against, Hinduism being a geographically underpinned system.Then again,since there is noting definitively doctrinal in Hinduism so that's neither here nor there.The case can probably be made that there is a significant momentum in space-time and in the "collective unconscious" to pin it with the Indian sub-continent. Thanks Rahul --- On Thu, 4/16/09, Kshmendra Kaul wrote: > From: Kshmendra Kaul > Subject: [Reader-list] Muslims in Ramadhan & 51 Shakti Peeths > To: "sarai list" > Date: Thursday, April 16, 2009, 7:57 PM > When the question was put as to how Muslims were supposed > to start and break their fast in Ramadhan in places like the > Land(s) of the Midnight Sun, the tongue in cheek answer was > that Muslims were not meant to live there.  >   > Similarly, the parts of Sati's body that were cut up by > Vishnu are reported as having been scattered over what is > predominantly the Indian sub-continent, landing at what are > recognised as 51 or 64 Shakti Peeths. >   > Is that all the strength Vishnu had in his arms that > the slingshots of the cut up body pieces landed in such a > small area (compared to the total size of the Earth)? Maybe > Hindus (or at least devotees of Shakti or at the very very > least the devotees of Sati) were not meant to live all over > the world. >   > Just thinking aloud >   > Kshmendra   > > > > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to > reader-list-request at sarai.net with subscribe in the subject > header. > To unsubscribe: > https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: > <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> From kauladityaraj at gmail.com Fri Apr 17 19:42:44 2009 From: kauladityaraj at gmail.com (Aditya Raj Kaul) Date: Fri, 17 Apr 2009 19:42:44 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Varun tortured in jail: BJP In-Reply-To: <341380d00904170655v174fe85p2bd75142c2e9723c@mail.gmail.com> References: <6353c690904170505u211ef84fj9167183c8f9c6627@mail.gmail.com> <341380d00904170515i5d513a91t5da51fc6d7478e07@mail.gmail.com> <6353c690904170614j1bbd701eu4ddf6fd2ea894368@mail.gmail.com> <341380d00904170625p1a20f14bt6b904e097733d71f@mail.gmail.com> <6353c690904170635q8d24576tf75ab85fc1120911@mail.gmail.com> <341380d00904170651p6a822c95u4e401d6b7e3782f9@mail.gmail.com> <341380d00904170655v174fe85p2bd75142c2e9723c@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <6353c690904170712k4cbd2b14y98cedbd7e8955dd6@mail.gmail.com> Oh anupAm I so pity you dear! You so live in the imaginative world and are fooled within with no regret at all. You have patience dude..lol By the way, the news item was published by Press Trust of India (PTI). Wonder if u've ever heard of it ? I just posted something which didn't hit the headlines. Just like in the past the fake witnesses story of so called activist Teesta Setalvad didn't show up at many placed for obvious reasons. You are so great at your rhetoric friend. Go on with it and be blessed.. ahhh anupam.. come on.. you need to shoot another one liner.. Hope 'Kali Mata' blesses your understanding skills. On Fri, Apr 17, 2009 at 7:25 PM, anupam chakravartty wrote: > Dear All, > > kindly take this as my reaction to a news item published by aditya raj kaul > because it was posted for my viewing. im expressing only those emotion > which > have occured to me instantly after reading this piece. so please bear it > and > like you all bear such pieces of information. > thanking you > > anupam > > > On 4/17/09, anupam chakravartty wrote: > > > > Who is 'we' here? are you threatening me? i hardly could care less. didnt > > you people are into name calling these days? varun is the best example. > > > > anyway..let me clarify..since you said dear varun who was tortured so > badly > > in the jail as per the piece of news you posted here to prove your > > allegiances to a political party, i asked you was he sterilised like a > dog? > > you could have replied in yes or no. > > > > you do not know anything about my past, so kindly keep away.by the way, > > varun is your friend? oh im very sorry for him. just make sure that he is > > alright ok? > > > > i just hope he was not sterilised. that would be such a loss to the > > country. so many like him would not be born. so many like him would not > say > > that he is a hindu, indian and what was the last one...gandhi. poor > varun. > > he could have just really gone back to london to get his real degree, but > > then he is a courageous young man. he wanted to do a pravin togadia and > > someone told me, he thought, that indians would make a t-shirt out of > him. > > but yeah all those things now are gone. he will probably be in the same > > league as rahul mahajan -- the saffron kids gone wrong club -- attending > > laughter challenges. he would be really laughing. i am amazed by him. oh > > varun gandhi, i wish you hadnt lied about the LSE degree. > > > > > > On 4/17/09, Aditya Raj Kaul wrote: > >> > >> well it really does dearest anupam.. you know your past really shapes > your > >> present actions.. > >> > >> And we can see that well enough.. > >> > >> ...questions are asked 'coz of some insane one liners which is if I get > >> the > >> permission to remind you not really encouraged here on this forum..! > >> > >> so please.. > >> > >> On Fri, Apr 17, 2009 at 6:55 PM, anupam chakravartty < > c.anupam at gmail.com > >> >wrote: > >> > >> > why am i being asked so many questions...i feel bad about varun > gandhi. > >> > that's all. and i sincerely hope that he was not sterilised dog. as > you > >> he > >> > claims that he is a hindu, indian and gandhi, so if we go by all of > >> that, > >> > he > >> > is immune but if he was really touched and you know frisked around, > >> that's > >> > really sad. > >> > > >> > as for you, aditya my being in past, present or future doesnt really > >> apply > >> > here. so please. > >> > > >> > > >> > On 4/17/09, Aditya Raj Kaul wrote: > >> > > > >> > > Anupam.. were you at some point of time in the past ? Just curious. > >> > > > >> > > On Fri, Apr 17, 2009 at 5:45 PM, anupam chakravartty < > >> c.anupam at gmail.com > >> > > >wrote: > >> > > > >> > > > Oh so sad. i hope he was not sterilised. > >> > > > On 4/17/09, Aditya Raj Kaul wrote: > >> > > > > > >> > > > > Varun tortured in jail: BJP > >> > > > > *Press Trust Of India*New Delhi, April 17, 2009 > >> > > > > > >> > > > > Alleging he was a victim of "vendetta politics", the BJP on > Friday > >> > > > claimed > >> > > > > that Varun Gandhi was tortured in jail, but he has emerged as a > >> > "strong > >> > > > > man". > >> > > > > > >> > > > > "Varun Gandhi is a victim of the vendetta politics of Sonia > Gandhi > >> > and > >> > > > > Mayawati in Uttar Pradesh. He has come out (from jail) as a > strong > >> > man. > >> > > > He > >> > > > > will file his nomination papers from Pilibhit on April 21," > party > >> > > > > spokesperson Balbir Punj told reporters in New Delhi on > Saturday. > >> > > > > > >> > > > > Punj, who briefed the media after holding discussions with Varun > >> at > >> > his > >> > > > > residence said, "Varun Gandhi has assured that he will continue > to > >> > work > >> > > > for > >> > > > > the party with the same energy and zeal despite all this". > >> > > > > > >> > > > > The young leader will also campaign in other parts of the > country > >> for > >> > > the > >> > > > > party apart from his own constituency, he said. > >> > > > > > >> > > > > The BJP spokesperson also called upon his party colleagues and > >> > > candidates > >> > > > > to > >> > > > > "show restrain" in their speeches. > >> > > > > > >> > > > > Varun, was released on a two-week parole by the Supreme Court > >> after > >> > > > > spending > >> > > > > more than a week in Etah Jail after being booked under National > >> > > Security > >> > > > > Act > >> > > > > by the Uttar Pradesh government for his alleged hate speeches. > >> > > > > _________________________________________ > >> > > > > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > >> > > > > Critiques & Collaborations > >> > > > > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.netwith > >> > > > > subscribe in the subject header. > >> > > > > To unsubscribe: > >> https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > >> > > > > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/ > > > >> > > > _________________________________________ > >> > > > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > >> > > > Critiques & Collaborations > >> > > > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > >> > > > subscribe in the subject header. > >> > > > To unsubscribe: > https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > >> > > > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> > >> > > > >> > > > >> > > > >> > > > >> > > -- > >> > > Aditya Raj Kaul > >> > > _________________________________________ > >> > > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > >> > > Critiques & Collaborations > >> > > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > >> > > subscribe in the subject header. > >> > > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > >> > > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> > >> > _________________________________________ > >> > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > >> > Critiques & Collaborations > >> > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > >> > subscribe in the subject header. > >> > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > >> > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> > >> > > >> _________________________________________ > >> reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > >> Critiques & Collaborations > >> To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > >> subscribe in the subject header. > >> To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > >> List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> > > > > > > > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > subscribe in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> > -- Aditya Raj Kaul From rakesh.rnbdj at gmail.com Fri Apr 17 20:00:12 2009 From: rakesh.rnbdj at gmail.com (Rakesh Iyer) Date: Fri, 17 Apr 2009 20:00:12 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Varun tortured in jail: BJP In-Reply-To: <6353c690904170712k4cbd2b14y98cedbd7e8955dd6@mail.gmail.com> References: <6353c690904170505u211ef84fj9167183c8f9c6627@mail.gmail.com> <341380d00904170515i5d513a91t5da51fc6d7478e07@mail.gmail.com> <6353c690904170614j1bbd701eu4ddf6fd2ea894368@mail.gmail.com> <341380d00904170625p1a20f14bt6b904e097733d71f@mail.gmail.com> <6353c690904170635q8d24576tf75ab85fc1120911@mail.gmail.com> <341380d00904170651p6a822c95u4e401d6b7e3782f9@mail.gmail.com> <341380d00904170655v174fe85p2bd75142c2e9723c@mail.gmail.com> <6353c690904170712k4cbd2b14y98cedbd7e8955dd6@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: Dear Anupam, Aditya (and those who wish to join them) Continue! Go ahead! So now we have a personal slanging match between people. Wonder whether Sarai is a forum for discussion or entertainment. Please for God's sake, start collabarting on issues and listening to each other rather than indulging in strategies to provide entertainment and taking potshots at others. As for Varun Gandhi, indeed he must be quite strengthened in prison, for after living in prison, Advani was strengthened enough to bring about a Ram Mandir movement which ensured death of so many innocent civilians and divided the country. Rather than Mahatma Gandhi whose sentence in prison ensured unity of the country. After all, in the BJP, one gets strengthened by dividing people (be it into Hindus or Muslims or be it between Modi and anti-Modi groups), instead of uniting people. Regards Rakesh From c.anupam at gmail.com Fri Apr 17 20:15:04 2009 From: c.anupam at gmail.com (anupam chakravartty) Date: Fri, 17 Apr 2009 20:15:04 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Varun tortured in jail: BJP In-Reply-To: <6353c690904170712k4cbd2b14y98cedbd7e8955dd6@mail.gmail.com> References: <6353c690904170505u211ef84fj9167183c8f9c6627@mail.gmail.com> <341380d00904170515i5d513a91t5da51fc6d7478e07@mail.gmail.com> <6353c690904170614j1bbd701eu4ddf6fd2ea894368@mail.gmail.com> <341380d00904170625p1a20f14bt6b904e097733d71f@mail.gmail.com> <6353c690904170635q8d24576tf75ab85fc1120911@mail.gmail.com> <341380d00904170651p6a822c95u4e401d6b7e3782f9@mail.gmail.com> <341380d00904170655v174fe85p2bd75142c2e9723c@mail.gmail.com> <6353c690904170712k4cbd2b14y98cedbd7e8955dd6@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <341380d00904170745t3fddc679xed1779ed46c5dcaa@mail.gmail.com> see aditya kali can only bless me if people (especially saffronised) like you exist. otherwise, kali doesnt really exist. you like varun have taken it upon your shoulders to decide what Godess Kali does (I think you are the standing committtee chairman in godess Kali's durbar) . so what will a tiny believer like me can do here. so much for me and my imaginative world. good night On 4/17/09, Aditya Raj Kaul wrote: > > Oh anupAm I so pity you dear! You so live in the imaginative world and are > fooled within with no regret at all. You have patience dude..lol > > By the way, the news item was published by Press Trust of India (PTI). > Wonder if u've ever heard of it ? > > I just posted something which didn't hit the headlines. Just like in the > past the fake witnesses story of so called activist Teesta Setalvad didn't > show up at many placed for obvious reasons. > > You are so great at your rhetoric friend. Go on with it and be blessed.. > > ahhh anupam.. come on.. you need to shoot another one liner.. > > Hope 'Kali Mata' blesses your understanding skills. > > On Fri, Apr 17, 2009 at 7:25 PM, anupam chakravartty >wrote: > > > Dear All, > > > > kindly take this as my reaction to a news item published by aditya raj > kaul > > because it was posted for my viewing. im expressing only those emotion > > which > > have occured to me instantly after reading this piece. so please bear it > > and > > like you all bear such pieces of information. > > thanking you > > > > anupam > > > > > > On 4/17/09, anupam chakravartty wrote: > > > > > > Who is 'we' here? are you threatening me? i hardly could care less. > didnt > > > you people are into name calling these days? varun is the best example. > > > > > > anyway..let me clarify..since you said dear varun who was tortured so > > badly > > > in the jail as per the piece of news you posted here to prove your > > > allegiances to a political party, i asked you was he sterilised like a > > dog? > > > you could have replied in yes or no. > > > > > > you do not know anything about my past, so kindly keep away.by the > way, > > > varun is your friend? oh im very sorry for him. just make sure that he > is > > > alright ok? > > > > > > i just hope he was not sterilised. that would be such a loss to the > > > country. so many like him would not be born. so many like him would not > > say > > > that he is a hindu, indian and what was the last one...gandhi. poor > > varun. > > > he could have just really gone back to london to get his real degree, > but > > > then he is a courageous young man. he wanted to do a pravin togadia and > > > someone told me, he thought, that indians would make a t-shirt out of > > him. > > > but yeah all those things now are gone. he will probably be in the same > > > league as rahul mahajan -- the saffron kids gone wrong club -- > attending > > > laughter challenges. he would be really laughing. i am amazed by him. > oh > > > varun gandhi, i wish you hadnt lied about the LSE degree. > > > > > > > > > On 4/17/09, Aditya Raj Kaul wrote: > > >> > > >> well it really does dearest anupam.. you know your past really shapes > > your > > >> present actions.. > > >> > > >> And we can see that well enough.. > > >> > > >> ...questions are asked 'coz of some insane one liners which is if I > get > > >> the > > >> permission to remind you not really encouraged here on this forum..! > > >> > > >> so please.. > > >> > > >> On Fri, Apr 17, 2009 at 6:55 PM, anupam chakravartty < > > c.anupam at gmail.com > > >> >wrote: > > >> > > >> > why am i being asked so many questions...i feel bad about varun > > gandhi. > > >> > that's all. and i sincerely hope that he was not sterilised dog. as > > you > > >> he > > >> > claims that he is a hindu, indian and gandhi, so if we go by all of > > >> that, > > >> > he > > >> > is immune but if he was really touched and you know frisked around, > > >> that's > > >> > really sad. > > >> > > > >> > as for you, aditya my being in past, present or future doesnt really > > >> apply > > >> > here. so please. > > >> > > > >> > > > >> > On 4/17/09, Aditya Raj Kaul wrote: > > >> > > > > >> > > Anupam.. were you at some point of time in the past ? Just > curious. > > >> > > > > >> > > On Fri, Apr 17, 2009 at 5:45 PM, anupam chakravartty < > > >> c.anupam at gmail.com > > >> > > >wrote: > > >> > > > > >> > > > Oh so sad. i hope he was not sterilised. > > >> > > > On 4/17/09, Aditya Raj Kaul wrote: > > >> > > > > > > >> > > > > Varun tortured in jail: BJP > > >> > > > > *Press Trust Of India*New Delhi, April 17, 2009 > > >> > > > > > > >> > > > > Alleging he was a victim of "vendetta politics", the BJP on > > Friday > > >> > > > claimed > > >> > > > > that Varun Gandhi was tortured in jail, but he has emerged as > a > > >> > "strong > > >> > > > > man". > > >> > > > > > > >> > > > > "Varun Gandhi is a victim of the vendetta politics of Sonia > > Gandhi > > >> > and > > >> > > > > Mayawati in Uttar Pradesh. He has come out (from jail) as a > > strong > > >> > man. > > >> > > > He > > >> > > > > will file his nomination papers from Pilibhit on April 21," > > party > > >> > > > > spokesperson Balbir Punj told reporters in New Delhi on > > Saturday. > > >> > > > > > > >> > > > > Punj, who briefed the media after holding discussions with > Varun > > >> at > > >> > his > > >> > > > > residence said, "Varun Gandhi has assured that he will > continue > > to > > >> > work > > >> > > > for > > >> > > > > the party with the same energy and zeal despite all this". > > >> > > > > > > >> > > > > The young leader will also campaign in other parts of the > > country > > >> for > > >> > > the > > >> > > > > party apart from his own constituency, he said. > > >> > > > > > > >> > > > > The BJP spokesperson also called upon his party colleagues and > > >> > > candidates > > >> > > > > to > > >> > > > > "show restrain" in their speeches. > > >> > > > > > > >> > > > > Varun, was released on a two-week parole by the Supreme Court > > >> after > > >> > > > > spending > > >> > > > > more than a week in Etah Jail after being booked under > National > > >> > > Security > > >> > > > > Act > > >> > > > > by the Uttar Pradesh government for his alleged hate speeches. > > >> > > > > _________________________________________ > > >> > > > > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > > >> > > > > Critiques & Collaborations > > >> > > > > To subscribe: send an email to > reader-list-request at sarai.netwith > > >> > > > > subscribe in the subject header. > > >> > > > > To unsubscribe: > > >> https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > > >> > > > > List archive: < > https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/ > > > > > >> > > > _________________________________________ > > >> > > > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > > >> > > > Critiques & Collaborations > > >> > > > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.netwith > > >> > > > subscribe in the subject header. > > >> > > > To unsubscribe: > > https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > > >> > > > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/ > > > > >> > > > > >> > > > > >> > > > > >> > > > > >> > > -- > > >> > > Aditya Raj Kaul > > >> > > _________________________________________ > > >> > > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > > >> > > Critiques & Collaborations > > >> > > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > > >> > > subscribe in the subject header. > > >> > > To unsubscribe: > https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > > >> > > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> > > >> > _________________________________________ > > >> > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > > >> > Critiques & Collaborations > > >> > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > > >> > subscribe in the subject header. > > >> > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > > >> > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> > > >> > > > >> _________________________________________ > > >> reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > > >> Critiques & Collaborations > > >> To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > > >> subscribe in the subject header. > > >> To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > > >> List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> > > > > > > > > > > > _________________________________________ > > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > > Critiques & Collaborations > > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > > subscribe in the subject header. > > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> > > > > > > -- > Aditya Raj Kaul > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > subscribe in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> From c.anupam at gmail.com Fri Apr 17 21:25:16 2009 From: c.anupam at gmail.com (anupam chakravartty) Date: Fri, 17 Apr 2009 21:25:16 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Varun tortured in jail: BJP In-Reply-To: <341380d00904170745t3fddc679xed1779ed46c5dcaa@mail.gmail.com> References: <6353c690904170505u211ef84fj9167183c8f9c6627@mail.gmail.com> <341380d00904170515i5d513a91t5da51fc6d7478e07@mail.gmail.com> <6353c690904170614j1bbd701eu4ddf6fd2ea894368@mail.gmail.com> <341380d00904170625p1a20f14bt6b904e097733d71f@mail.gmail.com> <6353c690904170635q8d24576tf75ab85fc1120911@mail.gmail.com> <341380d00904170651p6a822c95u4e401d6b7e3782f9@mail.gmail.com> <341380d00904170655v174fe85p2bd75142c2e9723c@mail.gmail.com> <6353c690904170712k4cbd2b14y98cedbd7e8955dd6@mail.gmail.com> <341380d00904170745t3fddc679xed1779ed46c5dcaa@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <341380d00904170855y7ccfb596j7828d8d92693e836@mail.gmail.com> Dear Rakesh, I can understand your concerns. But I really wanted to provide some cheap entertainment for this cheap piece of information (sourced from a newswire). Sarai is indeed a forum for discussion, which was happening till recently. I really apologise if I have hurt some of your sensibilities. I also had some expectations from this mailing list. For a very long time, without posting anything, I would read and read about the kind of debates that used to go on. Though there were people from all political hues and colour, the level of discussion was fantastic. The need to participate in it came when i saw that the debates which i liked the most were hijacked by people, who had no clue. I consciously decided to partipate putting forth the arguments, which i thought could work and not just plain rhetoric. most of these arguments were not purely based on reason, which has been a major drawback, but mostly reactions. reactions for other people's reactions. see there was one way, like how you say, that engage with clear reasoning and nothing would stop you from what you want to say. but you know most of the people, those who talk the most, including me are irrational people. or lets say this is an age of irrationalism. my irrationalism is mostly a counter-reaction. it is from experiences and sheer disrespect for arm chair intellectualism. people in india, commenting about north korea, while right under their noses a kid would dare to shoot his classmates with his father's gun...or burning each other's shop, taking the advantage of the state's interpretation -- that it was a riot -- and then sneaking inside the car of an insurance agent to claim the damages (with a fair share to the insurance). that's why i said it is easier for some of us to write arguments and counter arguments relying completely on the aristotle's mythical square of reasoning -- while resting our backs -- with an option to switch off this machine whenever we feel like. while, for the argument, it would just float around for a little while, until someone else picks it up. while learning whatever little i could gather from the buddhists, most of them would say buddha is the inexpressible, the non-entity, the not non-entity, a combination of both the truths or neither any of these truths. my irrationalism stems somewhere from here. i do not understand, how religions can become such an issue for me and you. i do not understand, that if there is a new way to understand the world, why it has to follow the ways of old world. why conform to only certain things while right here, someone is plotting things for you, so that you react. critical religious re-explorations could have been done keeping in mind change of times and eras. why arent we doing it? why anything which is anti-Hindu is seeing as anti-India? i dont think gita or koran or any of the text including text from buddhism are flawless. they are full of flaws, reasonable or absurd. this urge to define this diverse landmass by bringing under a mythical umbrella of one religion is something which i find deeply problemmatic. the clashes might have been communal but why this "educated and learned class" are behaving in such a way. my irrationalism stems from here. and i would cheat myself if i do not reply with equal spite and gusto with which i am bombed with such information. i am bound to. because there is nothing i can take from allegation of varun gandhi being tortured in the jail. because i derive this pleasure from the fact that he was beaten up by the police, and in case he wasnt then all this is hogwash. a press reporting of such allegation and subsequent posting of the article by Aditya was a clear propaganda. however, in case of the 23 muslims from sabarmati jail, i would say, since i have been covering crime issues related to the jails in Gujarat, is true. however, these incidents are not new. the 23 muslims who were bashed up have been put under defunct POTA in the Godhra carnage. for the past seven years, these people have been waiting for justice as many of them were picked up randomly by the police officials. one of them, iqbal hussain mamdu, who i had visited is blind. he was put under the custody because someone saw him loitering around the Godhra Railway station on February 27, 2002. he was booked for shouting slogans. when i visited his family in godhra, mamdus stay eight kilometres away from the railway station. mamdu cannot even walk past his mohalla and he was booked for inciting riots and subsequent burning of the Godhra train. there were people like siddiq badam, ibrahim charkha, who died of bone TB in the jail. you can check stories online as well. and then you have someone citing varun gandhi beaten up without even having the proof. WHY? i hope you consider these thoughts. -anupam On 4/17/09, anupam chakravartty wrote: > > see aditya kali can only bless me if people (especially saffronised) like > you exist. otherwise, kali doesnt really exist. you like varun have taken it > upon your shoulders to decide what Godess Kali does (I think you are the > standing committtee chairman in godess Kali's durbar) . so what will a tiny > believer like me can do here. > > so much for me and my imaginative world. good night > > > > > > > On 4/17/09, Aditya Raj Kaul wrote: >> >> Oh anupAm I so pity you dear! You so live in the imaginative world and are >> fooled within with no regret at all. You have patience dude..lol >> >> By the way, the news item was published by Press Trust of India (PTI). >> Wonder if u've ever heard of it ? >> >> I just posted something which didn't hit the headlines. Just like in the >> past the fake witnesses story of so called activist Teesta Setalvad didn't >> show up at many placed for obvious reasons. >> >> You are so great at your rhetoric friend. Go on with it and be blessed.. >> >> ahhh anupam.. come on.. you need to shoot another one liner.. >> >> Hope 'Kali Mata' blesses your understanding skills. >> >> On Fri, Apr 17, 2009 at 7:25 PM, anupam chakravartty > >wrote: >> >> > Dear All, >> > >> > kindly take this as my reaction to a news item published by aditya raj >> kaul >> > because it was posted for my viewing. im expressing only those emotion >> > which >> > have occured to me instantly after reading this piece. so please bear it >> > and >> > like you all bear such pieces of information. >> > thanking you >> > >> > anupam >> > >> > >> > On 4/17/09, anupam chakravartty wrote: >> > > >> > > Who is 'we' here? are you threatening me? i hardly could care less. >> didnt >> > > you people are into name calling these days? varun is the best >> example. >> > > >> > > anyway..let me clarify..since you said dear varun who was tortured so >> > badly >> > > in the jail as per the piece of news you posted here to prove your >> > > allegiances to a political party, i asked you was he sterilised like a >> > dog? >> > > you could have replied in yes or no. >> > > >> > > you do not know anything about my past, so kindly keep away.by the >> way, >> > > varun is your friend? oh im very sorry for him. just make sure that he >> is >> > > alright ok? >> > > >> > > i just hope he was not sterilised. that would be such a loss to the >> > > country. so many like him would not be born. so many like him would >> not >> > say >> > > that he is a hindu, indian and what was the last one...gandhi. poor >> > varun. >> > > he could have just really gone back to london to get his real degree, >> but >> > > then he is a courageous young man. he wanted to do a pravin togadia >> and >> > > someone told me, he thought, that indians would make a t-shirt out of >> > him. >> > > but yeah all those things now are gone. he will probably be in the >> same >> > > league as rahul mahajan -- the saffron kids gone wrong club -- >> attending >> > > laughter challenges. he would be really laughing. i am amazed by him. >> oh >> > > varun gandhi, i wish you hadnt lied about the LSE degree. >> > > >> > > >> > > On 4/17/09, Aditya Raj Kaul wrote: >> > >> >> > >> well it really does dearest anupam.. you know your past really shapes >> > your >> > >> present actions.. >> > >> >> > >> And we can see that well enough.. >> > >> >> > >> ...questions are asked 'coz of some insane one liners which is if I >> get >> > >> the >> > >> permission to remind you not really encouraged here on this forum..! >> > >> >> > >> so please.. >> > >> >> > >> On Fri, Apr 17, 2009 at 6:55 PM, anupam chakravartty < >> > c.anupam at gmail.com >> > >> >wrote: >> > >> >> > >> > why am i being asked so many questions...i feel bad about varun >> > gandhi. >> > >> > that's all. and i sincerely hope that he was not sterilised dog. as >> > you >> > >> he >> > >> > claims that he is a hindu, indian and gandhi, so if we go by all of >> > >> that, >> > >> > he >> > >> > is immune but if he was really touched and you know frisked around, >> > >> that's >> > >> > really sad. >> > >> > >> > >> > as for you, aditya my being in past, present or future doesnt >> really >> > >> apply >> > >> > here. so please. >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > On 4/17/09, Aditya Raj Kaul wrote: >> > >> > > >> > >> > > Anupam.. were you at some point of time in the past ? Just >> curious. >> > >> > > >> > >> > > On Fri, Apr 17, 2009 at 5:45 PM, anupam chakravartty < >> > >> c.anupam at gmail.com >> > >> > > >wrote: >> > >> > > >> > >> > > > Oh so sad. i hope he was not sterilised. >> > >> > > > On 4/17/09, Aditya Raj Kaul wrote: >> > >> > > > > >> > >> > > > > Varun tortured in jail: BJP >> > >> > > > > *Press Trust Of India*New Delhi, April 17, 2009 >> > >> > > > > >> > >> > > > > Alleging he was a victim of "vendetta politics", the BJP on >> > Friday >> > >> > > > claimed >> > >> > > > > that Varun Gandhi was tortured in jail, but he has emerged as >> a >> > >> > "strong >> > >> > > > > man". >> > >> > > > > >> > >> > > > > "Varun Gandhi is a victim of the vendetta politics of Sonia >> > Gandhi >> > >> > and >> > >> > > > > Mayawati in Uttar Pradesh. He has come out (from jail) as a >> > strong >> > >> > man. >> > >> > > > He >> > >> > > > > will file his nomination papers from Pilibhit on April 21," >> > party >> > >> > > > > spokesperson Balbir Punj told reporters in New Delhi on >> > Saturday. >> > >> > > > > >> > >> > > > > Punj, who briefed the media after holding discussions with >> Varun >> > >> at >> > >> > his >> > >> > > > > residence said, "Varun Gandhi has assured that he will >> continue >> > to >> > >> > work >> > >> > > > for >> > >> > > > > the party with the same energy and zeal despite all this". >> > >> > > > > >> > >> > > > > The young leader will also campaign in other parts of the >> > country >> > >> for >> > >> > > the >> > >> > > > > party apart from his own constituency, he said. >> > >> > > > > >> > >> > > > > The BJP spokesperson also called upon his party colleagues >> and >> > >> > > candidates >> > >> > > > > to >> > >> > > > > "show restrain" in their speeches. >> > >> > > > > >> > >> > > > > Varun, was released on a two-week parole by the Supreme Court >> > >> after >> > >> > > > > spending >> > >> > > > > more than a week in Etah Jail after being booked under >> National >> > >> > > Security >> > >> > > > > Act >> > >> > > > > by the Uttar Pradesh government for his alleged hate >> speeches. >> > >> > > > > _________________________________________ >> > >> > > > > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. >> > >> > > > > Critiques & Collaborations >> > >> > > > > To subscribe: send an email to >> reader-list-request at sarai.netwith >> > >> > > > > subscribe in the subject header. >> > >> > > > > To unsubscribe: >> > >> https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list >> > >> > > > > List archive: < >> https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/ >> > > >> > >> > > > _________________________________________ >> > >> > > > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. >> > >> > > > Critiques & Collaborations >> > >> > > > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.netwith >> > >> > > > subscribe in the subject header. >> > >> > > > To unsubscribe: >> > https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list >> > >> > > > List archive: < >> https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> >> > >> > > >> > >> > > >> > >> > > >> > >> > > >> > >> > > -- >> > >> > > Aditya Raj Kaul >> > >> > > _________________________________________ >> > >> > > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. >> > >> > > Critiques & Collaborations >> > >> > > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.netwith >> > >> > > subscribe in the subject header. >> > >> > > To unsubscribe: >> https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list >> > >> > > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> >> > >> > _________________________________________ >> > >> > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. >> > >> > Critiques & Collaborations >> > >> > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with >> > >> > subscribe in the subject header. >> > >> > To unsubscribe: >> https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list >> > >> > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> >> > >> > >> > >> _________________________________________ >> > >> reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. >> > >> Critiques & Collaborations >> > >> To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with >> > >> subscribe in the subject header. >> > >> To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list >> > >> List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > _________________________________________ >> > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. >> > Critiques & Collaborations >> > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with >> > subscribe in the subject header. >> > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list >> > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> >> > >> >> >> >> -- >> Aditya Raj Kaul >> _________________________________________ >> reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. >> Critiques & Collaborations >> To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with >> subscribe in the subject header. >> To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list >> List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> > > > From kauladityaraj at gmail.com Fri Apr 17 21:38:55 2009 From: kauladityaraj at gmail.com (Aditya Raj Kaul) Date: Fri, 17 Apr 2009 21:38:55 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Varun tortured in jail: BJP In-Reply-To: <341380d00904170855y7ccfb596j7828d8d92693e836@mail.gmail.com> References: <6353c690904170505u211ef84fj9167183c8f9c6627@mail.gmail.com> <341380d00904170515i5d513a91t5da51fc6d7478e07@mail.gmail.com> <6353c690904170614j1bbd701eu4ddf6fd2ea894368@mail.gmail.com> <341380d00904170625p1a20f14bt6b904e097733d71f@mail.gmail.com> <6353c690904170635q8d24576tf75ab85fc1120911@mail.gmail.com> <341380d00904170651p6a822c95u4e401d6b7e3782f9@mail.gmail.com> <341380d00904170655v174fe85p2bd75142c2e9723c@mail.gmail.com> <6353c690904170712k4cbd2b14y98cedbd7e8955dd6@mail.gmail.com> <341380d00904170745t3fddc679xed1779ed46c5dcaa@mail.gmail.com> <341380d00904170855y7ccfb596j7828d8d92693e836@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <6353c690904170908g5fa92993x1282f895b207337c@mail.gmail.com> anupAm... you seems to be writing e-mails even in your bed. Mails seems to be coming even after a crisp two lettered 'good night'. Sorry to intrude into your privacy. May you be a believer in Kali; if not a servant in her durbar. I know I exist and so does Goddess Kali. Maybe you don't. Its somewhat funny. You accuse me of being saffron. what are you black, red or maroon ? ..lol fyi, PTI is not just another news wire. So you can't just rubbish this piece of news item. I know it isn't 'Music' to you ears. I know writing e-mails on this forum is your pass time but now you can relax a bit for your own sake friend. We can wait for tomorrow. Tomorrow will come baby. On Fri, Apr 17, 2009 at 9:25 PM, anupam chakravartty wrote: > Dear Rakesh, > > I can understand your concerns. But I really wanted to provide some cheap > entertainment for this cheap piece of information (sourced from a > newswire). > Sarai is indeed a forum for discussion, which was happening till recently. > > I really apologise if I have hurt some of your sensibilities. I also had > some expectations from this mailing list. For a very long time, without > posting anything, I would read and read about the kind of debates that used > to go on. Though there were people from all political hues and colour, the > level of discussion was fantastic. The need to participate in it came when > i > saw that the debates which i liked the most were hijacked by people, who > had > no clue. I consciously decided to partipate putting forth the arguments, > which i thought could work and not just plain rhetoric. most of these > arguments were not purely based on reason, which has been a major drawback, > but mostly reactions. reactions for other people's reactions. > > see there was one way, like how you say, that engage with clear reasoning > and nothing would stop you from what you want to say. but you know most of > the people, those who talk the most, including me are irrational people. or > lets say this is an age of irrationalism. > > my irrationalism is mostly a counter-reaction. it is from experiences and > sheer disrespect for arm chair intellectualism. people in india, commenting > about north korea, while right under their noses a kid would dare to shoot > his classmates with his father's gun...or burning each other's shop, taking > the advantage of the state's interpretation -- that it was a riot -- and > then sneaking inside the car of an insurance agent to claim the damages > (with a fair share to the insurance). > > that's why i said it is easier for some of us to write arguments and > counter > arguments relying completely on the aristotle's mythical square of > reasoning > -- while resting our backs -- with an option to switch off this machine > whenever we feel like. while, for the argument, it would just float around > for a little while, until someone else picks it up. > > while learning whatever little i could gather from the buddhists, most of > them would say buddha is the inexpressible, the non-entity, the not > non-entity, a combination of both the truths or neither any of these > truths. > > my irrationalism stems somewhere from here. i do not understand, how > religions can become such an issue for me and you. i do not understand, > that > if there is a new way to understand the world, why it has to follow the > ways > of old world. why conform to only certain things while right here, someone > is plotting things for you, so that you react. critical religious > re-explorations could have been done keeping in mind change of times and > eras. why arent we doing it? why anything which is anti-Hindu is seeing as > anti-India? i dont think gita or koran or any of the text including text > from buddhism are flawless. they are full of flaws, reasonable or absurd. > > this urge to define this diverse landmass by bringing under a mythical > umbrella of one religion is something which i find deeply problemmatic. the > clashes might have been communal but why this "educated and learned class" > are behaving in such a way. my irrationalism stems from here. and i would > cheat myself if i do not reply with equal spite and gusto with which i am > bombed with such information. i am bound to. because there is nothing i can > take from allegation of varun gandhi being tortured in the jail. because i > derive this pleasure from the fact that he was beaten up by the police, and > in case he wasnt then all this is hogwash. a press reporting of such > allegation and subsequent posting of the article by Aditya was a clear > propaganda. > > however, in case of the 23 muslims from sabarmati jail, i would say, since > i > have been covering crime issues related to the jails in Gujarat, is true. > however, these incidents are not new. the 23 muslims who were bashed up > have > been put under defunct POTA in the Godhra carnage. for the past seven > years, > these people have been waiting for justice as many of them were picked up > randomly by the police officials. one of them, iqbal hussain mamdu, who i > had visited is blind. he was put under the custody because someone saw him > loitering around the Godhra Railway station on February 27, 2002. he was > booked for shouting slogans. when i visited his family in godhra, mamdus > stay eight kilometres away from the railway station. mamdu cannot even walk > past his mohalla and he was booked for inciting riots and subsequent > burning > of the Godhra train. there were people like siddiq badam, ibrahim charkha, > who died of bone TB in the jail. you can check stories online as well. > > and then you have someone citing varun gandhi beaten up without even having > the proof. WHY? > > i hope you consider these thoughts. > > -anupam > > On 4/17/09, anupam chakravartty wrote: > > > > see aditya kali can only bless me if people (especially saffronised) like > > you exist. otherwise, kali doesnt really exist. you like varun have taken > it > > upon your shoulders to decide what Godess Kali does (I think you are the > > standing committtee chairman in godess Kali's durbar) . so what will a > tiny > > believer like me can do here. > > > > so much for me and my imaginative world. good night > > > > > > > > > > > > > > On 4/17/09, Aditya Raj Kaul wrote: > >> > >> Oh anupAm I so pity you dear! You so live in the imaginative world and > are > >> fooled within with no regret at all. You have patience dude..lol > >> > >> By the way, the news item was published by Press Trust of India (PTI). > >> Wonder if u've ever heard of it ? > >> > >> I just posted something which didn't hit the headlines. Just like in the > >> past the fake witnesses story of so called activist Teesta Setalvad > didn't > >> show up at many placed for obvious reasons. > >> > >> You are so great at your rhetoric friend. Go on with it and be blessed.. > >> > >> ahhh anupam.. come on.. you need to shoot another one liner.. > >> > >> Hope 'Kali Mata' blesses your understanding skills. > >> > >> On Fri, Apr 17, 2009 at 7:25 PM, anupam chakravartty < > c.anupam at gmail.com > >> >wrote: > >> > >> > Dear All, > >> > > >> > kindly take this as my reaction to a news item published by aditya raj > >> kaul > >> > because it was posted for my viewing. im expressing only those emotion > >> > which > >> > have occured to me instantly after reading this piece. so please bear > it > >> > and > >> > like you all bear such pieces of information. > >> > thanking you > >> > > >> > anupam > >> > > >> > > >> > On 4/17/09, anupam chakravartty wrote: > >> > > > >> > > Who is 'we' here? are you threatening me? i hardly could care less. > >> didnt > >> > > you people are into name calling these days? varun is the best > >> example. > >> > > > >> > > anyway..let me clarify..since you said dear varun who was tortured > so > >> > badly > >> > > in the jail as per the piece of news you posted here to prove your > >> > > allegiances to a political party, i asked you was he sterilised like > a > >> > dog? > >> > > you could have replied in yes or no. > >> > > > >> > > you do not know anything about my past, so kindly keep away.by the > >> way, > >> > > varun is your friend? oh im very sorry for him. just make sure that > he > >> is > >> > > alright ok? > >> > > > >> > > i just hope he was not sterilised. that would be such a loss to the > >> > > country. so many like him would not be born. so many like him would > >> not > >> > say > >> > > that he is a hindu, indian and what was the last one...gandhi. poor > >> > varun. > >> > > he could have just really gone back to london to get his real > degree, > >> but > >> > > then he is a courageous young man. he wanted to do a pravin togadia > >> and > >> > > someone told me, he thought, that indians would make a t-shirt out > of > >> > him. > >> > > but yeah all those things now are gone. he will probably be in the > >> same > >> > > league as rahul mahajan -- the saffron kids gone wrong club -- > >> attending > >> > > laughter challenges. he would be really laughing. i am amazed by > him. > >> oh > >> > > varun gandhi, i wish you hadnt lied about the LSE degree. > >> > > > >> > > > >> > > On 4/17/09, Aditya Raj Kaul wrote: > >> > >> > >> > >> well it really does dearest anupam.. you know your past really > shapes > >> > your > >> > >> present actions.. > >> > >> > >> > >> And we can see that well enough.. > >> > >> > >> > >> ...questions are asked 'coz of some insane one liners which is if I > >> get > >> > >> the > >> > >> permission to remind you not really encouraged here on this > forum..! > >> > >> > >> > >> so please.. > >> > >> > >> > >> On Fri, Apr 17, 2009 at 6:55 PM, anupam chakravartty < > >> > c.anupam at gmail.com > >> > >> >wrote: > >> > >> > >> > >> > why am i being asked so many questions...i feel bad about varun > >> > gandhi. > >> > >> > that's all. and i sincerely hope that he was not sterilised dog. > as > >> > you > >> > >> he > >> > >> > claims that he is a hindu, indian and gandhi, so if we go by all > of > >> > >> that, > >> > >> > he > >> > >> > is immune but if he was really touched and you know frisked > around, > >> > >> that's > >> > >> > really sad. > >> > >> > > >> > >> > as for you, aditya my being in past, present or future doesnt > >> really > >> > >> apply > >> > >> > here. so please. > >> > >> > > >> > >> > > >> > >> > On 4/17/09, Aditya Raj Kaul wrote: > >> > >> > > > >> > >> > > Anupam.. were you at some point of time in the past ? Just > >> curious. > >> > >> > > > >> > >> > > On Fri, Apr 17, 2009 at 5:45 PM, anupam chakravartty < > >> > >> c.anupam at gmail.com > >> > >> > > >wrote: > >> > >> > > > >> > >> > > > Oh so sad. i hope he was not sterilised. > >> > >> > > > On 4/17/09, Aditya Raj Kaul wrote: > >> > >> > > > > > >> > >> > > > > Varun tortured in jail: BJP > >> > >> > > > > *Press Trust Of India*New Delhi, April 17, 2009 > >> > >> > > > > > >> > >> > > > > Alleging he was a victim of "vendetta politics", the BJP on > >> > Friday > >> > >> > > > claimed > >> > >> > > > > that Varun Gandhi was tortured in jail, but he has emerged > as > >> a > >> > >> > "strong > >> > >> > > > > man". > >> > >> > > > > > >> > >> > > > > "Varun Gandhi is a victim of the vendetta politics of Sonia > >> > Gandhi > >> > >> > and > >> > >> > > > > Mayawati in Uttar Pradesh. He has come out (from jail) as a > >> > strong > >> > >> > man. > >> > >> > > > He > >> > >> > > > > will file his nomination papers from Pilibhit on April 21," > >> > party > >> > >> > > > > spokesperson Balbir Punj told reporters in New Delhi on > >> > Saturday. > >> > >> > > > > > >> > >> > > > > Punj, who briefed the media after holding discussions with > >> Varun > >> > >> at > >> > >> > his > >> > >> > > > > residence said, "Varun Gandhi has assured that he will > >> continue > >> > to > >> > >> > work > >> > >> > > > for > >> > >> > > > > the party with the same energy and zeal despite all this". > >> > >> > > > > > >> > >> > > > > The young leader will also campaign in other parts of the > >> > country > >> > >> for > >> > >> > > the > >> > >> > > > > party apart from his own constituency, he said. > >> > >> > > > > > >> > >> > > > > The BJP spokesperson also called upon his party colleagues > >> and > >> > >> > > candidates > >> > >> > > > > to > >> > >> > > > > "show restrain" in their speeches. > >> > >> > > > > > >> > >> > > > > Varun, was released on a two-week parole by the Supreme > Court > >> > >> after > >> > >> > > > > spending > >> > >> > > > > more than a week in Etah Jail after being booked under > >> National > >> > >> > > Security > >> > >> > > > > Act > >> > >> > > > > by the Uttar Pradesh government for his alleged hate > >> speeches. > >> > >> > > > > _________________________________________ > >> > >> > > > > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > >> > >> > > > > Critiques & Collaborations > >> > >> > > > > To subscribe: send an email to > >> reader-list-request at sarai.netwith > >> > >> > > > > subscribe in the subject header. > >> > >> > > > > To unsubscribe: > >> > >> https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > >> > >> > > > > List archive: < > >> https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/ > >> > > > >> > >> > > > _________________________________________ > >> > >> > > > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > >> > >> > > > Critiques & Collaborations > >> > >> > > > To subscribe: send an email to > reader-list-request at sarai.netwith > >> > >> > > > subscribe in the subject header. > >> > >> > > > To unsubscribe: > >> > https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > >> > >> > > > List archive: < > >> https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> > >> > >> > > > >> > >> > > > >> > >> > > > >> > >> > > > >> > >> > > -- > >> > >> > > Aditya Raj Kaul > >> > >> > > _________________________________________ > >> > >> > > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > >> > >> > > Critiques & Collaborations > >> > >> > > To subscribe: send an email to > reader-list-request at sarai.netwith > >> > >> > > subscribe in the subject header. > >> > >> > > To unsubscribe: > >> https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > >> > >> > > List archive: < > https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> > >> > >> > _________________________________________ > >> > >> > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > >> > >> > Critiques & Collaborations > >> > >> > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.netwith > >> > >> > subscribe in the subject header. > >> > >> > To unsubscribe: > >> https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > >> > >> > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> > >> > >> > > >> > >> _________________________________________ > >> > >> reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > >> > >> Critiques & Collaborations > >> > >> To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > >> > >> subscribe in the subject header. > >> > >> To unsubscribe: > https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > >> > >> List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> > >> > > > >> > > > >> > > > >> > _________________________________________ > >> > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > >> > Critiques & Collaborations > >> > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > >> > subscribe in the subject header. > >> > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > >> > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> > >> > > >> > >> > >> > >> -- > >> Aditya Raj Kaul > >> _________________________________________ > >> reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > >> Critiques & Collaborations > >> To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > >> subscribe in the subject header. > >> To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > >> List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> > > > > > > > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > subscribe in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> > -- Aditya Raj Kaul From indersalim at gmail.com Fri Apr 17 21:39:13 2009 From: indersalim at gmail.com (Inder Salim) Date: Fri, 17 Apr 2009 21:39:13 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Varun tortured in jail: BJP In-Reply-To: <341380d00904170855y7ccfb596j7828d8d92693e836@mail.gmail.com> References: <6353c690904170505u211ef84fj9167183c8f9c6627@mail.gmail.com> <341380d00904170515i5d513a91t5da51fc6d7478e07@mail.gmail.com> <6353c690904170614j1bbd701eu4ddf6fd2ea894368@mail.gmail.com> <341380d00904170625p1a20f14bt6b904e097733d71f@mail.gmail.com> <6353c690904170635q8d24576tf75ab85fc1120911@mail.gmail.com> <341380d00904170651p6a822c95u4e401d6b7e3782f9@mail.gmail.com> <341380d00904170655v174fe85p2bd75142c2e9723c@mail.gmail.com> <6353c690904170712k4cbd2b14y98cedbd7e8955dd6@mail.gmail.com> <341380d00904170745t3fddc679xed1779ed46c5dcaa@mail.gmail.com> <341380d00904170855y7ccfb596j7828d8d92693e836@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <47e122a70904170909u54d1a6f4g1fef47dce4fd6157@mail.gmail.com> Dear Anupam can u please forward more research material about these custodial deaths, and blind people arrested after Riots in Gujarat, that may really help us to know more about your real work, which can be even beyond Gujarat. with love is On Fri, Apr 17, 2009 at 9:25 PM, anupam chakravartty wrote: > Dear Rakesh, > > I can understand your concerns. But I really wanted to provide some cheap > entertainment for this cheap piece of information (sourced from a newswire). > Sarai is indeed a forum for discussion, which was happening till recently. > > I really apologise if I have hurt some of your sensibilities. I also had > some expectations from this mailing list. For a very long time, without > posting anything, I would read and read about the kind of debates that used > to go on. Though there were people from all political hues and colour, the > level of discussion was fantastic. The need to participate in it came when i > saw that the debates which i liked the most were hijacked by people, who had > no clue. I consciously decided to partipate putting forth the arguments, > which i thought could work and not just plain rhetoric. most of these > arguments were not purely based on reason, which has been a major drawback, > but mostly reactions. reactions for other people's reactions. > > see there was one way, like how you say, that engage with clear reasoning > and nothing would stop you from what you want to say. but you know most of > the people, those who talk the most, including me are irrational people. or > lets say this is an age of irrationalism. > > my irrationalism is mostly a counter-reaction. it is from experiences and > sheer disrespect for arm chair intellectualism. people in india, commenting > about north korea, while right under their noses a kid would dare to shoot > his classmates with his father's gun...or burning each other's shop, taking > the advantage of the state's interpretation -- that it was a riot -- and > then sneaking inside the car of an insurance agent to claim the damages > (with a fair share to the insurance). > > that's why i said it is easier for some of us to write arguments and counter > arguments relying completely on the aristotle's mythical square of reasoning > -- while resting our backs -- with an option to switch off this machine > whenever we feel like. while, for the argument, it would just float around > for a little while, until someone else picks it up. > > while learning whatever little i could gather from the buddhists, most of > them would say buddha is the inexpressible, the non-entity, the not > non-entity, a combination of both the truths or neither any of these > truths. > > my irrationalism stems somewhere from here. i do not understand, how > religions can become such an issue for me and you. i do not understand, that > if there is a new way to understand the world, why it has to follow the ways > of old world. why conform to only certain things while right here, someone > is plotting things for you, so that you react. critical religious > re-explorations could have been done keeping in mind change of times and > eras. why arent we doing it? why anything which is anti-Hindu is seeing as > anti-India? i dont think gita or koran or any of the text including text > from buddhism are flawless. they are full of flaws, reasonable or absurd. > > this urge to define this diverse landmass by bringing under a mythical > umbrella of one religion is something which i find deeply problemmatic. the > clashes might have been communal but why this "educated and learned class" > are behaving in such a way. my irrationalism stems from here. and i would > cheat myself if i do not reply with equal spite and gusto with which i am > bombed with such information. i am bound to. because there is nothing i can > take from allegation of varun gandhi being tortured in the jail. because i > derive this pleasure from the fact that he was beaten up by the police, and > in case he wasnt then all this is hogwash. a press reporting of such > allegation and subsequent posting of the article by Aditya was a clear > propaganda. > > however, in case of the 23 muslims from sabarmati jail, i would say, since i > have been covering crime issues related to the jails in Gujarat, is true. > however, these incidents are not new. the 23 muslims who were bashed up have > been put under defunct POTA in the Godhra carnage. for the past seven years, > these people have been waiting for justice as many of them were picked up > randomly by the police officials. one of them, iqbal hussain mamdu, who i > had visited is blind. he was put under the custody because someone saw him > loitering around the Godhra Railway station on February 27, 2002. he was > booked for shouting slogans. when i visited his family in godhra, mamdus > stay eight kilometres away from the railway station. mamdu cannot even walk > past his mohalla and he was booked for inciting riots and subsequent burning > of the Godhra train. there were people like siddiq badam, ibrahim charkha, > who died of bone TB in the jail. you can check stories online as well. > > and then you have someone citing varun gandhi beaten up without even having > the proof. WHY? > > i hope you consider these thoughts. > > -anupam > > On 4/17/09, anupam chakravartty wrote: >> >> see aditya kali can only bless me if people (especially saffronised) like >> you exist. otherwise, kali doesnt really exist. you like varun have taken it >> upon your shoulders to decide what Godess Kali does (I think you are the >> standing committtee chairman in godess Kali's durbar) . so what will a tiny >> believer like me can do here. >> >> so much for me and my imaginative world. good night >> >> >> >> >> >> >> On 4/17/09, Aditya Raj Kaul wrote: >>> >>> Oh anupAm I so pity you dear! You so live in the imaginative world and are >>> fooled within with no regret at all. You have patience dude..lol >>> >>> By the way, the news item was published by Press Trust of India (PTI). >>> Wonder if u've ever heard of it ? >>> >>> I just posted something which didn't hit the headlines. Just like in the >>> past the fake witnesses story of so called activist Teesta Setalvad didn't >>> show up at many placed for obvious reasons. >>> >>> You are so great at your rhetoric friend. Go on with it and be blessed.. >>> >>> ahhh anupam.. come on.. you need to shoot another one liner.. >>> >>> Hope 'Kali Mata' blesses your understanding skills. >>> >>> On Fri, Apr 17, 2009 at 7:25 PM, anupam chakravartty >> >wrote: >>> >>> > Dear All, >>> > >>> > kindly take this as my reaction to a news item published by aditya raj >>> kaul >>> > because it was posted for my viewing. im expressing only those emotion >>> > which >>> > have occured to me instantly after reading this piece. so please bear it >>> > and >>> > like you all bear such pieces of information. >>> > thanking you >>> > >>> > anupam >>> > >>> > >>> > On 4/17/09, anupam chakravartty wrote: >>> > > >>> > > Who is 'we' here? are you threatening me? i hardly could care less. >>> didnt >>> > > you people are into name calling these days? varun is the best >>> example. >>> > > >>> > > anyway..let me clarify..since you said dear varun who was tortured so >>> > badly >>> > > in the jail as per the piece of news you posted here to prove your >>> > > allegiances to a political party, i asked you was he sterilised like a >>> > dog? >>> > > you could have replied in yes or no. >>> > > >>> > > you do not know anything about my past, so kindly keep away.by the >>> way, >>> > > varun is your friend? oh im very sorry for him. just make sure that he >>> is >>> > > alright ok? >>> > > >>> > > i just hope he was not sterilised. that would be such a loss to the >>> > > country. so many like him would not be born. so many like him would >>> not >>> > say >>> > > that he is a hindu, indian and what was the last one...gandhi. poor >>> > varun. >>> > > he could have just really gone back to london to get his real degree, >>> but >>> > > then he is a courageous young man. he wanted to do a pravin togadia >>> and >>> > > someone told me, he thought, that indians would make a t-shirt out of >>> > him. >>> > > but yeah all those things now are gone. he will probably be in the >>> same >>> > > league as rahul mahajan -- the saffron kids gone wrong club -- >>> attending >>> > > laughter challenges. he would be really laughing. i am amazed by him. >>> oh >>> > > varun gandhi, i wish you hadnt lied about the LSE degree. >>> > > >>> > > >>> > > On 4/17/09, Aditya Raj Kaul wrote: >>> > >> >>> > >> well it really does dearest anupam.. you know your past really shapes >>> > your >>> > >> present actions.. >>> > >> >>> > >> And we can see that well enough.. >>> > >> >>> > >> ...questions are asked 'coz of some insane one liners which is if I >>> get >>> > >> the >>> > >> permission to remind you not really encouraged here on this forum..! >>> > >> >>> > >> so please.. >>> > >> >>> > >> On Fri, Apr 17, 2009 at 6:55 PM, anupam chakravartty < >>> > c.anupam at gmail.com >>> > >> >wrote: >>> > >> >>> > >> > why am i being asked so many questions...i feel bad about varun >>> > gandhi. >>> > >> > that's all. and i sincerely hope that he was not sterilised dog. as >>> > you >>> > >> he >>> > >> > claims that he is a hindu, indian and gandhi, so if we go by all of >>> > >> that, >>> > >> > he >>> > >> > is immune but if he was really touched and you know frisked around, >>> > >> that's >>> > >> > really sad. >>> > >> > >>> > >> > as for you, aditya my being in past, present or future doesnt >>> really >>> > >> apply >>> > >> > here. so please. >>> > >> > >>> > >> > >>> > >> > On 4/17/09, Aditya Raj Kaul wrote: >>> > >> > > >>> > >> > > Anupam.. were you at some point of time in the past ? Just >>> curious. >>> > >> > > >>> > >> > > On Fri, Apr 17, 2009 at 5:45 PM, anupam chakravartty < >>> > >> c.anupam at gmail.com >>> > >> > > >wrote: >>> > >> > > >>> > >> > > > Oh so sad. i hope he was not sterilised. >>> > >> > > > On 4/17/09, Aditya Raj Kaul wrote: >>> > >> > > > > >>> > >> > > > > Varun tortured in jail: BJP >>> > >> > > > > *Press Trust Of India*New Delhi, April 17, 2009 >>> > >> > > > > >>> > >> > > > > Alleging he was a victim of "vendetta politics", the BJP on >>> > Friday >>> > >> > > > claimed >>> > >> > > > > that Varun Gandhi was tortured in jail, but he has emerged as >>> a >>> > >> > "strong >>> > >> > > > > man". >>> > >> > > > > >>> > >> > > > > "Varun Gandhi is a victim of the vendetta politics of Sonia >>> > Gandhi >>> > >> > and >>> > >> > > > > Mayawati in Uttar Pradesh. He has come out (from jail) as a >>> > strong >>> > >> > man. >>> > >> > > > He >>> > >> > > > > will file his nomination papers from Pilibhit on April 21," >>> > party >>> > >> > > > > spokesperson Balbir Punj told reporters in New Delhi on >>> > Saturday. >>> > >> > > > > >>> > >> > > > > Punj, who briefed the media after holding discussions with >>> Varun >>> > >> at >>> > >> > his >>> > >> > > > > residence said, "Varun Gandhi has assured that he will >>> continue >>> > to >>> > >> > work >>> > >> > > > for >>> > >> > > > > the party with the same energy and zeal despite all this". >>> > >> > > > > >>> > >> > > > > The young leader will also campaign in other parts of the >>> > country >>> > >> for >>> > >> > > the >>> > >> > > > > party apart from his own constituency, he said. >>> > >> > > > > >>> > >> > > > > The BJP spokesperson also called upon his party colleagues >>> and >>> > >> > > candidates >>> > >> > > > > to >>> > >> > > > > "show restrain" in their speeches. >>> > >> > > > > >>> > >> > > > > Varun, was released on a two-week parole by the Supreme Court >>> > >> after >>> > >> > > > > spending >>> > >> > > > > more than a week in Etah Jail after being booked under >>> National >>> > >> > > Security >>> > >> > > > > Act >>> > >> > > > > by the Uttar Pradesh government for his alleged hate >>> speeches. >>> > >> > > > > _________________________________________ >>> > >> > > > > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. >>> > >> > > > > Critiques & Collaborations >>> > >> > > > > To subscribe: send an email to >>> reader-list-request at sarai.netwith >>> > >> > > > > subscribe in the subject header. >>> > >> > > > > To unsubscribe: >>> > >> https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list >>> > >> > > > > List archive: < >>> https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/ >>> > > >>> > >> > > > _________________________________________ >>> > >> > > > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. >>> > >> > > > Critiques & Collaborations >>> > >> > > > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.netwith >>> > >> > > > subscribe in the subject header. >>> > >> > > > To unsubscribe: >>> > https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list >>> > >> > > > List archive: < >>> https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> >>> > >> > > >>> > >> > > >>> > >> > > >>> > >> > > >>> > >> > > -- >>> > >> > > Aditya Raj Kaul >>> > >> > > _________________________________________ >>> > >> > > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. >>> > >> > > Critiques & Collaborations >>> > >> > > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.netwith >>> > >> > > subscribe in the subject header. >>> > >> > > To unsubscribe: >>> https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list >>> > >> > > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> >>> > >> > _________________________________________ >>> > >> > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. >>> > >> > Critiques & Collaborations >>> > >> > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with >>> > >> > subscribe in the subject header. >>> > >> > To unsubscribe: >>> https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list >>> > >> > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> >>> > >> > >>> > >> _________________________________________ >>> > >> reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. >>> > >> Critiques & Collaborations >>> > >> To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with >>> > >> subscribe in the subject header. >>> > >> To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list >>> > >> List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> >>> > > >>> > > >>> > > >>> > _________________________________________ >>> > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. >>> > Critiques & Collaborations >>> > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with >>> > subscribe in the subject header. >>> > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list >>> > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> >>> > >>> >>> >>> >>> -- >>> Aditya Raj Kaul >>> _________________________________________ >>> reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. >>> Critiques & Collaborations >>> To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with >>> subscribe in the subject header. >>> To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list >>> List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> >> >> >> > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with subscribe in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> -- http://indersalim.livejournal.com From rakesh.rnbdj at gmail.com Fri Apr 17 21:48:19 2009 From: rakesh.rnbdj at gmail.com (Rakesh Iyer) Date: Fri, 17 Apr 2009 21:48:19 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Varun tortured in jail: BJP In-Reply-To: <6353c690904170908g5fa92993x1282f895b207337c@mail.gmail.com> References: <6353c690904170505u211ef84fj9167183c8f9c6627@mail.gmail.com> <6353c690904170614j1bbd701eu4ddf6fd2ea894368@mail.gmail.com> <341380d00904170625p1a20f14bt6b904e097733d71f@mail.gmail.com> <6353c690904170635q8d24576tf75ab85fc1120911@mail.gmail.com> <341380d00904170651p6a822c95u4e401d6b7e3782f9@mail.gmail.com> <341380d00904170655v174fe85p2bd75142c2e9723c@mail.gmail.com> <6353c690904170712k4cbd2b14y98cedbd7e8955dd6@mail.gmail.com> <341380d00904170745t3fddc679xed1779ed46c5dcaa@mail.gmail.com> <341380d00904170855y7ccfb596j7828d8d92693e836@mail.gmail.com> <6353c690904170908g5fa92993x1282f895b207337c@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: Dear Aditya jee I don't think just because someone doesnt' believe in something, or anywhere else, should you be making fun and dismissing arguments of people. It's one thing not to believe in something, but some respect should be given. And even if you say Anupam has done the same thing against you, I would say that winning battles on Sarai by such posts only points to egoism and nothing else. And we are not here to massage our egos and show them off, we are here to discuss issues. I would request the moderators of Sarai list to please banish such personal potshots being taken here, and debar such posts from appearing. That would ensure focus on issues rather than personalities. (and such posts too) Regards Rakesh From kauladityaraj at gmail.com Fri Apr 17 21:54:05 2009 From: kauladityaraj at gmail.com (Aditya Raj Kaul) Date: Fri, 17 Apr 2009 21:54:05 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Varun tortured in jail: BJP In-Reply-To: References: <6353c690904170505u211ef84fj9167183c8f9c6627@mail.gmail.com> <341380d00904170625p1a20f14bt6b904e097733d71f@mail.gmail.com> <6353c690904170635q8d24576tf75ab85fc1120911@mail.gmail.com> <341380d00904170651p6a822c95u4e401d6b7e3782f9@mail.gmail.com> <341380d00904170655v174fe85p2bd75142c2e9723c@mail.gmail.com> <6353c690904170712k4cbd2b14y98cedbd7e8955dd6@mail.gmail.com> <341380d00904170745t3fddc679xed1779ed46c5dcaa@mail.gmail.com> <341380d00904170855y7ccfb596j7828d8d92693e836@mail.gmail.com> <6353c690904170908g5fa92993x1282f895b207337c@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <6353c690904170924i2c966a7ekee590cc43e73becd@mail.gmail.com> Dear Rakeshji, I second your honest observations and recommendations. Would try to follow them. Lets hope others too join in rather than just enjoying pass time here on Sarai. thanks anyways. On Fri, Apr 17, 2009 at 9:48 PM, Rakesh Iyer wrote: > Dear Aditya jee > > I don't think just because someone doesnt' believe in something, or > anywhere else, should you be making fun and dismissing arguments of people. > It's one thing not to believe in something, but some respect should be > given. > > And even if you say Anupam has done the same thing against you, I would say > that winning battles on Sarai by such posts only points to egoism and > nothing else. And we are not here to massage our egos and show them off, we > are here to discuss issues. > > I would request the moderators of Sarai list to please banish such personal > potshots being taken here, and debar such posts from appearing. That would > ensure focus on issues rather than personalities. (and such posts too) > > Regards > > Rakesh > -- Aditya Raj Kaul From kauladityaraj at gmail.com Fri Apr 17 21:57:52 2009 From: kauladityaraj at gmail.com (Aditya Raj Kaul) Date: Fri, 17 Apr 2009 21:57:52 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Hurriyat, terror groups at daggers drawn on poll boycott Message-ID: <6353c690904170927t4ab5c258n8117a63f870d8f8a@mail.gmail.com> *Hurriyat, terror groups at daggers drawn on poll boycott* Srinagar, Apr 17 (PTI) The moderate faction of separatist Hurriyat Conference and conglomerate of militant outfits -- United Jehad Council -- crossed swords for the first time over calls for poll boycott in Jammu and Kashmir. In a strong message today, acting Chairman of Hurriyat Conference Maulana Abbas Ansari said the "diktats" of UJC chairman and Hizbul Mujahideen terror group head Syed Sallahuddin for a poll boycott were not acceptable. "We do not recognise UJC. They are carrying swords. We do not accept diktats," Ansari, who is officiating as Chairman in absence of the Mirwaiz Umer Farooq, said. The Mirwaiz is undergoing treatment in national capital for slip disc. Terming the militant conglomerate as confused, he said the UJC adapted different standards for assembly and general elections. The UJC did not interfere in 2008 assembly polls whereas now they are asking people to boycott, Ansari said, adding the Hurriyat has left the decision about elections to peoples' "conscience". Hurriyat's moderate faction has for the first time in 13 years decided not to give a call to people to stay away from polls. Hurriyat has maintained that elections have nothing to do with the resolution of Kashmir issue. "Elections are for day to day governance and development. For us in Hurriyat Conference, holding elections is non-issue," Ansari said. UJC on Wednesday had attacked the stand of Hurriyat alleging "those who claim that polls have nothing to do with freedom movement are deceiving people". PTI From rakesh.rnbdj at gmail.com Fri Apr 17 22:37:24 2009 From: rakesh.rnbdj at gmail.com (Rakesh Iyer) Date: Fri, 17 Apr 2009 22:37:24 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] India & My conception of development In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Dear all There have not been any responses to my previous mail regarding 'Diversity of India'. Probably people here felt that I was trying to start an article/digest of myself for popularizing. Far from it. I wish people could read these and then discuss about issues. And certainly I would like to listen from others as well, for I am someone who would like to analyze issues, reason them out and then form my own view. And replying to my mails as well as others can set the tone for discussions and good debates in the forum which can enlighten our other members as to what view and opinion to take. Of course, it may not be an enlightened one, but they can certainly choose what they wish to. And yes, if you feel it's mere popularizing personal thing and is utter nonsense, I will consider stopping this, though at most it could be 10 mails or so. In the last mail, I had talked about unity and diversity. This mail has my understanding of the causes for which people should unite, and those for whom this unity is dangerous and useless. Well, it is very difficult to define the causes or pick out causes by and large for which unity should be achieved so easily. After all, even Ram mandir construction movement was a movement for which some of the Hindus proposed the cause of unity, and in their own understanding, it is perfectly rational. And for those opposing it or considering it a non-issue, there are other rational arguments to look at. As a basic rule, I feel that people should unite when it serves the purpose of the common good to be achieved. The problem is that different people have different conceptions of the common good as well. For the RSS, Ram Mandir is good for India as they feel that its' construction helps provide dignity to Hindus and is for their common good. They also feel that Muslims are traitors and so are the Christians, hence the Hindus should adhere to the concept of 'Hindutva' to achieve common good. For the 'secularists' (I am talking about seculars like Congress and their like folk who remember secularism just as sluts remember the men they enjoyed with), the common good is ensuring that Muslims are in constant fear and feeling of 'siege' so that they always vote against the BJP, which would ultimately help one of these parties to form governments. For our urban middle class, it is ensuring that free markets exist and fiscal responsibility is adhered to, by removing farm subsidies (and probably by also removing NREGS) as well that the common good is achieved. And there can be other categories as well. Some feel that serving Sri lankan Tamils cause gives the common good. Others feel that raising the 1984 issue again and again (of Sikh killings) is for common good. And there are different classes and castes and groups of people having different notions of common good. Then what actually serves the commong good? That, which actually helps the people. That, which in Gandhi's words, removes the tears from the last downtrodden person. That which can secure a livelihood with dignity for him. And most of these issues do the opposite. When BJP unites people against Muslims or for Ram Mandir, (or the RSS-Sangh Parivar or anyone else), it doesn't help the downtrodden. Will rain-gods be happy that a Ram Mandir is constructed? Will the rape of Dalit women in UP stop if Godhra is avenged? Will even the rape of women in Gujarat stop for that matter? Do tribals gain by killing Muslims like this? Can the Ram Mandir ensure total peace in India, or we have more conflicts to come after that? When the Congress wants to ensure unity, it's through fear of the BJP. What is the use of that? What does the Congress do when they are in power (here I am talking in terms of provincial level more than national level)? In Madhya Pradesh, Digvijay Singh may not have allowed any riot to take place and also helped decentalization, but he ensured that roads and power were in dire straits at the end of his reign. Even his poverty alleviation programs were hijacked by people indulging in corruption, and his huge jumbo ministry ensured that public money was spent on 'lal batti'. When compared with Gujarat (even before Modi), roads were better in Gujarat than us. Infact, even Congress netas preferred helicopters to travelling by road when campaigning in 2003 elections! When the urban middle class wants to ensure unity, it is only to strengthen their own hegemony over the rest of India. They want to prove that they are the only educated people of this nation, the 'enlightened' ones, and thus they only have the know-how to solve the problems of India. Except that they hardly know India. The pink chaddi campaigns and the Jaago Re campaign people would not even know the percentage of tribals in India's population. (I accept equally that I don't know the exact figure as well. My guess is 18 percent. Please do correct me as well) We don't equally know the conditions under which people have to survive in slums or villages. And we are going to solve the problems of India!! My foot!! First such people should be sent on discovery routes of India, and then we may be able to know what India is, before deciding how to solve problems. Don't unite for personal hegemony to be maintained, or for selfish objectives to be attained pertinent to one group. Unite for a cause where even people outside your group, including your adversaries, actually benefit. It's a win-win situation for all, not just for some sections of the society. And this is why I oppose nationalism. Mind you, I differentiate it from patriotism. Patriotism for me is love of the land, because of link to it through culture. Nationalism is simply love of the land because you are told it is yours, irrespective of whether you are linked to it culturally or not. Nationalism does bring in a sense of unity, but the purpose achieved through being nationalistic does not help the downtrodden or the poor in India or anywhere else at all. When people opposed the Hirakud dam to be built, Nehru said the people should allow the dam to be built and sacrifice their own homes and lands. The Somnath Mandir was built and shown around to prove that it's a symbol of Indian nationalism. The Indian army is considered the most nationalistic wing of the Indian state, and people are supposed to be proud of the Indian army. If they are not they are looked down upon (at least I was). The Indo-US nuclear deal is portrayed by the Congress to show its stand of 'true nationalism'. The Indian state is preparing for military and defence modernization considering the nation's interests. Nationalism is pure bogus because all the activities I have listed above don't help the downtrodden and the poor. I know Bipin jee will say look at Hirakud and Sardar Sarovar dam as they have given power. My contention is that these dams have been built without any proper scientific studies as such. Infact, the World Bank stopped funding the Sardar Sarovar dam project in 1992 based on a report which said that ecological concerns were not adequately addressed, and the environmental concerns have been played down or just dismissed. The Bank considered itself responsible for building a dam which it considered wrong to build. For the Hirakud dam, people have not been rehabilitated and resettled properly even now, forget anything else. If this is what our nation gives in the name of nationalism, let it go to dogs and cats, I am not willing to accept it. About the Indian army, the less said the better. The Indian army has indulged in rapes and killings on a scale never known. Forget Kashmir. Go to the North-East. About a few years ago, women in Nagaland (I think it was Nagaland, and if not I duly apologize) protested naked against the army and asked the AFSPA (Armed Forces Special Powers Act) to be repealed. One of my friends went to Jammu and said that the army does practise prostitution culture in Jammu (a strong allegation as he had contacts with the army, and he said this is not publicized either in Jammu or in India or fear of loss of support to the Indian army). I don't say the army hasn't done good things. But it's bad things are too many to be forgotten. In the name of AFSPA, they can't be allowed to go about allowing prostitution culture. Infact the other forces also indulge in this. In Salwa Judum, women protection officers( supposed to take care of the movement), were subjected to prostitution by the Naga Regiment posted there! Great!! And they are supposedly protectors of the nation. I don't want nationalism. It is useless. Nationalism can't feed the poor. Patriotism can give dignity and link to culture. Nationalism creates bigots and nothing else. Japan paid the price of nationalism, with 1945 bombings. And others would have to pay the price as well. Don't worry about that. So unity should be for the poor and downtrodden, and nationalism: let it go to cats and dogs, it is useless for humans at least. Regards Rakesh From pawan.durani at gmail.com Fri Apr 17 23:19:47 2009 From: pawan.durani at gmail.com (Pawan Durani) Date: Fri, 17 Apr 2009 23:19:47 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] The Communist Conspiracy ! Message-ID: <6b79f1a70904171049u68293888kf906d1891a3edc83@mail.gmail.com> The below article has created more questions in my mind Did the communists really spy for the British ? Were the communists involved in making the blue print of Pakistan ? Was the slogan of Pakistan a co-creation of Communists ? Was Netaji really called as 'Japaneese Pig' ? Was Netaji referred as a Nazi by Communists ? Was a very derogatory word used by Rabindra nath Tagore by Communists ? Did the Communists called Nehru & Patel as 'Fascists duo'? Would someone well versed in History explain of what the reality is ? I am ready to listen to any view. http://www.geocities.com/saterrorwatch/communist_conspiracy.htm** *The Communist Conspiracy* (*This article was written in 1981. Now the Soviet Union has disappeared from the scene and the Communist movement in India does not know whom to serve. But its hostility towards Hindu society and culture remains undiminished. It is quite on the cards that this mercenary outfit will be bought over, in due course, by some other power or powers hostile to positive Indian nationalism. A Communist cannot help being a traitor to his country and his people.*) We have so far discussed the role of the residues of foreign rule in India vis-a-vis Hindu society. We have characterised Islamism as malevolent, Christianism as mischievous, and Macaulayism as mild, though like a slow poison. Now we shall take up Communism which, though not exactly a residue of foreign rule, is yet a foreign imposition of the most malignant character. But before we proceed, we wish to make it clear that nothing in this article should be construed as a hostile criticism of Indo-Soviet relations. Our friendship with the Soviet Union has matured in the midst of a fast moving world. We value that friendship, though we would like to emphasize that the Soviet Union needs India’s friendship as much as India needs hers. We also warn that neither the Soviet Union nor the Communist movement in our country should be permitted to close our other options while we are faced and have to deal with American interventionism. Though Communism in India cannot be characterised as a residue of the British rule, the British Government did make some substantial contributions to its growth. In the ‘thirties, that Government encouraged non-Communist revolutionaries in its jails to read Communist literature. This was done in order to wean them away from “terrorism.” Many of them came out as convinced Communists while still wearing the halo of national heroes. Again, during the Second World War, that Government partronised, financed and fraternised with the Communist Party of India and helped it attain the stature of an independent political party. Ideologically, Communism in India is, in several respects, a sort of extension of Macaulayism, a residue of the British rule. That is why Communism is strongest today in those areas where Macaulayism had earlier spread its widest spell. That is why Macaulayism has always been on the defensive and apologetic vis-a-vis Communism. Macaulayism has always tried to understand and explain away the misdeeds of Communism in this country. It has sadly deplored, if not condoned, as misguided idealism even the most heinous crimes of the Communists. The long record of our parliamentary debates is a witness of how, after the death of Sardar Patel, die treasury benches have always evinced an awed deference towards utterly unparliamentary and downright demagogic vituperations from Communist members. This ideological affinity between Communism and Macaulayism is ultimately derived from a common source in the modern West-materialistic metaphysics, evolutionistic sociology, utilitarian ethics, hedonistic psychology, etc. In this world-view, man is essentially a *homo fabricus*, a tool-maker or mechanic. A centralised economy and an urbanised society are a natural follow-up of this world-view. In this larger ideological context, Marxism is a logical culmination of Capitalism. Marx reserved his choicest praise for Capitalism and his choicest abuse for what he denounced as Utopian Socialism. The only crime of this other school of Socialism was that it objected to the relentless drive of Capitalism towards total mechanisation, industrialisation and centralisation, reducing the individual human being to a helpless entity. The difference between Capitalism in the West and Communism in the East of Europe arose because Capitalist societies retained philosophical eclecticism and political pluralism as expressed in parliamentary democracy, a free press and free trade unions. Communist societies, on the other hand, froze Marxist philosophy into a closed system of orthodoxy. This led to heresy-hunting which in due course reduced Marxism to the status of a Semitic creed like Christianity and Islam. Bertrand Russell was not far wrong when he identified Communism as a Christian heresy. It has acquired all the characteristic features of the Christian Church such as the *only*Saviour, the *only* Revelation, the *only* Pope, the *only* priesthood, the only baptism, and the only sacraments. Communist regimes could not help becoming totalitarian enemies of human freedom. Yet, and in spite of all ideological affinities, Communism is not a variety of Macaulayism, though the former fattens on the latter. The inspiration of Communism did not derive from the West. Its gospel as well guidance emanated from an opposite direction, the Soviet Union, except for a brief period when China also shared the honour of being a hallowed land. This is not the occasion to dwell on the philosophy of Marxism or the strategy and tactics of Leninism or Stalinism or Maoism. Here we are dealing with the problem which Communism poses before Hindu society and culture. In any case, Communism in India, has never had much use for Marxism, Leninism, Stalinism and Maoism except as an ideological window-dressing to impress the intelligentsia at large and hoodwink the party cadres whenever the Party line has to be shifted swiftly. What, then, is Communism? Scholars and historians of Communism far more competent than the present writer have documented it beyond a shadow of doubt that Communism has been an instrument of Soviet foreign policy in its drive towards world domination, particularly since Stalin emerged as the undisputed leader of the Soviet Union as well as the world Communist movement. The unmasking of Stalin as a mass-murderer by Khruschev has blown up the myth of Soviet Russia as a proletarian paradise. The split with China has splintered the world Communist monolith. But, by and large, the movement has recovered from these shocks, retained its self-righteousness and resumed its role in the service of Soviet foreign policy. It is, therefore, natural and inevitable that Communism should come into conflict with *positive* nationalism in every country. India cannot be an exception. By *positive*nationalism we mean a nationalism which draws its inspiration from its own cultural heritage and socio-political traditions. Such a nationalism has its own way of looking at world events and evaluating the alignment of world forces. Such a nationalism is guided by its own past experience in safeguarding its interests and pursuing its goals. These interests and goals may coincide or agree with the interests and goals of Soviet foreign policy at some particular stage of world politics. But it is equally likely that they may not. This basic dissonance between Communism and *positive* nationalism in India was fully and finally dramatised during the Second World War. The Communist Party of India had, since its inception, opposed British imperialism in India and stood for its immediate and violent overthrow. The Party had also opposed the Muslim League which it had characterised as a collaborationist conspiracy of landed interests. In the eyes of Indian freedom fighters, therefore, the Party represented a revolutionary fringe of the nationalist movement. The Congress Socialist Party even allowed its platform to be used by the Communist Party of India which was working under a British ban. But the curtain was raised suddenly in 1941 when Hitler invaded the Soviet Union and the real face of Communism was revealed for all who could see. The Congress leadership had tried to negotiate a settlement with the British for two long years. Finding the British attitude adamant, the Congress decided in August 1942 to launch the Quit India Movement. The Communists in the Congress opposed the Quit India resolution in the AICC Session at Bombay. They propounded that the imperialist war had been transformed into a people’s war simply because the Soviet Union had been invaded by an enemy of Britain. The freedom movement forged ahead under its own inspiration. But the Communist Party of India moved full steam in the opposite direction. British imperialism now became British bureaucracy for the Communists, the Muslim League a spokesman of the Muslim mass upsurge, and the demand for Pakistan a legitimate expression of Muslim nationalism which the Congress should concede immediately. The rest of the story is well-known-the story of how the freedom movement was branded as a movement for collaboration with Fascism, how Subhash Chandra Bose was denounced as a Nazi dog and a Japanese rat, how Communist cadres spied for the British secret police on Socialists and Forward Blocists who had organised an underground movement, and how the Communist intellectuals like Adhikari and Ashraf blueprinted the case for Pakistan with facts, figures, academic arguments and sentimental slogans. The Communist contribution towards the creation of Pakistan was next only to that of the Muslim League. The Soviet Union was in search of a base from which it could operate for capturing the rest of India after the departure of the British. That plan did not succeed and Pakistan became a base for American interventionism instead. Ever since, the Communists in India have been blaming the Partition on those very forces of *positive* nationalism which had fought the Muslim League tooth and nail. Communist slogans may change but their hostility to positive nationalism is permanent. The source of *positive* nationalism in India is *Sanãtana Dharma* and the long saga of Hindu history. Hindu society provides the only base for * positive* nationalism. The Muslim and the Christian communities can share in *positive* nationalism only by revising the premises of their exclusive creeds in favour of the universal principles laid down by *Sanãtana Dharma*. Communism in India is bent upon destroying *Sanãtana Dharma* and Hindu society. It is, therefore, in its interest to prevent the Muslims and the Christians from moving towards the mainstream of *positive* nationalism. This is a point with which we shall deal when we expose the united front between various forces hostile to the Hindus. Here we shall simply specify some prime targets of Communism in its battle against Hindu society and culture. They are as follows: 1. The first and foremost target of Communism is *Sanãtana Dharma* enshrined in Hindu literature and made living by a long line of saints, mystics and* bhaktas*. Communism ridicules all this wealth of unrivalled spiritual splendour as a conglomeration of sterile superstition, obnoxious obscurantism and puerile priescraft; 2. Next, Communism makes an aggressive move towards Hindu *Dharmashãstras* which have their source in *Sanãtana Dharma* and which lay down the moral and social principles by which a wholesome social and individual life is sustained. Communism denounces these *Dharmashãstras* as respositories of primitive prescriptions, Machiavellian morality, caste oppression, untouchability, degradation of women, Brahmin domination, lack of social responsibility, and what not; 3. Thirdly, Communism concentrates on Hindu philosophies which expound, compare, contrast, fortify and defend the manifold metaphysical points of view flowing into several streams from the self-same *Sanãtana Dharma*. It condemns all these philosophies as Brahminical conspiracies to suppress the* Lokãyata*, “the only scientific philosophy pulsating with a revolutionary principle”. Rahul Sankrityayana was a great pedlar of this Communist lore among the Hindi reading public. Some of his works have been translated into other languages also. He was very enterprising indeed. He postulated that the Buddha was preaching Marxism for all practical purposes except for his unmindful lapse into the unproved doctrine of transmigration; 4. Fourthly-and here Communism has really invested some herculean endeavours-it ransacks the annals of Hindu history and Hindu heroism. A whole battalion of Communist historians have been busy for years battering the walls of Hindu historiography “behind which Hindu communalism and chauvinism is hiding its ugly face”. They have ridiculed every hero, every period, every episode, and every precedent in which Hindus can take pride. The Golden Age of the Imperial Guptas in which Hindu achievements attained their acme in the fields of art, literature and science is dismissed as a myth by D.N. Jha whose *Ancient India: An Introductory Outline* has just been reprinted by the People’s Publishing House, New Delhi. Other Communist historians have portrayed Maharana Pratap, Shivaji and Guru Govind Singh as local rebels against *pax moslemanica* for petty personal ends. The same historians whitewash bloodthirsty Islamic conquerors and despicable despots, and condone their crimes either by balancing them with “great good deeds which they did in some other direction” or by explaining them away as conforming to the prevailing pattern of empire-building; 5. Lastly, the Communist anthropologists and sociologists dive deep into Hindu social institutions, customs, mores and manners and come up with some class interest hiding inside the core in each case. We are told that Hindu society has always been an unhealthy society except perhaps during the Vedic period when, according to Romila Thapar, our Aryan ancestors ate beef. Beef-eating by the ancient Aryans has been such an obsession with Miss Thapar that she returns to the theme again and again, even when discussing the dancing girl found in the ruins of Mohenjo-daro. How hostile Communism can be to everything Hindu is proved by an incident in which S.A. Dange and his son-in-law, Deshpande, got involved a few years ago. Deshpande wrote quite a scholarly book in which he propounded that several important principles of modern mathematics and science (including dialectical materialism which is the greatest principle of modern science according to Communism) were first discovered by systems of Hindu philosophy, notably *SãMkhya* and*Vedãnta*. Several other Communist savants had earlier indulged in a similar exercise of casting ancient Hindu philosophies into a materialist mould. The party had paraded them as expert explorers and authentic interpreters of the revolutionary undercurrents in India’s philosophical heritage. Where Deshpande went wrong was that he took a genuine pride in the ancient Hindu past and expressed it in no mean measure. Dange himself contributed a Preface to the book and presented it as quite an academic achievement. Little did they know the consequences of what they had done. The Party came down upon them like a ton of bricks. It called a seminar, “Marxism on Vedanta”, in which Dange had to confess his errors and cat crow. Deshpande’s book published by a society in Bombay was withdrawn from circulation. The methods which Communism employs in India to denigrate and denounce the votaries of positive nationalism are the standard Communist methods it uses everywhere around the world. Here we shall concretise three of its chief methods under Indian conditions: 1. Communism in India has developed a language which George Orwell has described as *doublespeak*. In this language, the traitorous and totalitarian forces represented by the Communist movement are presented as * patriotic* and democratic forces, collaborators with Communism as progressive people, Islamic imperialism as secularism, and positive nationalism as Hindu communalism and chauvinism. Many people do not know how to decipher this *doublespeak* and are, therefore, trapped by it;1 2. Communism in India constantly practises what Karl Popper so aptly expounded “as the conspiracy theory of society”. It goes on digging up one conspiracy after another against the working class, the peasantry, the middle class, the toiling masses, Secularism, and so on. In this scheme, it links up “Hindu communalism and chauvinism” with capitalism, landlordism, forces of obscurantism, revivalism and reaction and, finally, all of them with “American imperialism”. The forces of “democracy and progress” are then called upon to rally round the Communist movement to defeat the “grand conspiracy between American imperialism outside and reactionary Hindu communalism within”. This helps the Communist cadres to acquire a rare depth of perception without exercising their brains. The less they know and think, the better they feel and function. Recently, Communism has discovered a conspiracy of “Hindu communalism” to kill Muslims and destroy Muslim property whenever and wherever Muslims show some signs of prosperity; 3. Communism in India wields a strong-worded swearology which it hurls at its adversaries. Some samples of this swearology will illumine the venom which it can carry. During the Ranadive party-line in 1948-50, Mahatma Gandhi was “unmasked” as the cleverest bourgeois scoundrel and Rabindranath as *mãgeer dãlãl*, that is, a pimp. But the choicest reprimand was reserved for Sardar Patel and Pandit Nehru “the fascist duo”.*Parichaya*, the prestigious Bengali monthly, came out with a long poem on the two of them “conspiring together in the service of American imperialism”. One of the lines exposed them as *shyãlã shooarer bãcchã, birlã tatãr jãroja shontãna*, that is, sons of swine and the bastard progeny of Birlas and Tatas. But, then, you cannot pin the Communists to any of their past performances. They always “admit their mistakes” publicly and do a bit of chest-beating whenever they receive orders to change the Party line. At present, the bulk of Communist swearology is being mobilised against the camp of positive nationalism. People belonging to this camp are being daily denounced as communalists, chauvinists, fascist murderers of minorities, perpetrators of genocide, reactionaries and revivalists. The tone is still mild, keeping in mind how mendacious it could easily become at a moment’s notice. But there are intimations that it may resume its full powers of rhetoric as and when required.2 Hindu society is basically a sane society which can smile with tolerance at every variety of venomous as well as tall talk. Hindus could have dismissed the Communists as a band of lunatics and morons, had not Communism acquired the power and prestige it enjoys in India today. Communism has, of course, fattened itself on widespread Macaulayism and a *negative* nationalism driven by nothing better than an anti-Western animus and inflated ideas about India’s role in world affairs. But the main strength of Communism in India springs from colossal Soviet finances which pour into its coffers through many channels and in increasing amounts. This is not the place to identify the channels through which the Soviet Union finances its fifth-column in India. Here we are concerned with what the Communist movement does with this money. The following deserve our particular attention: 1. The Communist movement in India has built up the largest press in English as well as Indian languages. It runs many dailies, weeklies, fortnightlies, monthlies, quarterlies and irregular periodicals. Most of these papers and journals do not care for commercial and other advertisements which are the main source of income in normal press establishments. The losses that are incurred by these party organs run into crores of rupees every year, 2. The movement controls the largest number of publishing houses. They publish Communist literature in English as well as Indian languages. Most of this literature is in the form of pamphlets, presenting the Party line on all issues of importance, national and international. Recently, Communist publishing houses have undertaken publication of heavier intellectual fare as well, provided it carries a Communist slant or is authored by a Communist or a fellow-traveller. A new line is publication of text-books, particularly on Indian history. These are prescribed by Communist professors whenever and wherever they control university departments, which is not unoften. Departments of history in the Delhi and Jawaharlal Nehru universities, for instance, have become pocket boroughs of Communism for all practical purposes. All this literature, light as well as heavy, is sold at prices which cannot meet even a fraction of the cost. The large discounts allowed to retailers increase this disparity a good deal. The publishing houses which are housed in spacious places, owned or rented by the movement, maintain large salaried staff of all levels. The losses incurred in this enterprise are also colossal; 3. The movement is a cadre-based movement. It has a farflung hierarchy of leaders and workers. All of them are paid activists. Some of them are whole-timers, others part-timers. The leaders are paid and maintained much better than the workers. But salaries and allowances of workers are not inadequate either, if we take into account the communes which the movement maintains for its activists. These expenses on salaries, rents, food, clothing, transport and sundries account for another colossal sum spent from month to month and year after year; 4. The movement maintains and mans many front organisations among trade unions, peasantry, students, youth, women, children, writers, artists, for “peace”, for fighting “imperialism”, for opposing “communalism”. Most of these front organisations have their own offices and their own staff. They also publish their own pamphlets and periodicals. The costs involved on maintaining and turning these transmission belts, as Lenin called them, are considerable; 5. The Communist movement in India is well-known for the frequency of conferences, congresses, mass meetings and demonstrations. A large number of people, many times from long distances, are paid to travel to these gatherings, pass the Party resolutions and shout the Party slogans. Many participants in Communist demonstrations, particularly in big cities like Calcutta, are hired on the basis of payment per head per day. The lodging, board and transport costs for mobilising these crowds are paid by the movement. Posters, placards and buntings abound on these occasions. Again, the costs are colossal. We are not counting the routine expenses which every political movement or party has to incur in its normal functioning. The parties which do not control a government know it very well how difficult it is to find finances even for these normal expenses. The expenses incurred by the Communist movement are abnormal when compared to its size and significance in India’s body-politic. In comparison, the ruling Congress Party is a poor party. And it has to find itself in an embarassing position when some of its methods for collecting money are exposed. The one thing which, next to slogans, never gets scarce in the Communist movement is money. That is how it is always in a position to prove that it is a movement of the poor, maintained by the poor, and for the benefit of the poor. Shankar had once drawn a cartoon in which a well-dressed upper class Communist worker was demanding a donation for peace from a naked and blind beggar, and denouncing the latter as a warmongering agent of American imperialism who would not part with his paisa. *Footnotes:* 1 See Sita Ram Goel, *Perversion of India’s Political Parlance*, Voice of India, New Delhi, 1984. 2 The Communists who control *The Times of India* at present have already come out with this rhetoric. From sub_sengupta at yahoo.co.in Fri Apr 17 23:23:40 2009 From: sub_sengupta at yahoo.co.in (subhrodip sengupta) Date: Fri, 17 Apr 2009 23:23:40 +0530 (IST) Subject: [Reader-list] Fw: Enjoy the humor....................... :-) Message-ID: <862441.20300.qm@web94712.mail.in2.yahoo.com> no offences techies please, but tell me is it true? After many years of being looked down upon as having taken commerce in +2, seeing my friend's Ex off with a Docie, I take this holy time as a moment of golden glory and giggle a bit at it. Nonsense(and appologies for what I just said), pure humor! ----- Forwarded Message ---- From: Sourav Sengupta To: sub_sengupta at yahoo.co.in Sent: Friday, 17 April, 2009 9:27:40 PM Subject: Fw: Enjoy the humor....................... :-) Once upon a time there was a shepherd looking after his sheep on the side of a deserted road. Suddenly a brand new Porsche screeches to a halt. The driver, a man dressed in an Armani suit, Cerutti shoes, Ray-Ban sunglasses, TAG-Heuer wrist-watch, and a Pierre Cardin tie, gets out and asks the Shepherd: If I can tell you how many sheep you have, will you give me one of them?" The shepherd looks at the young man, and then looks at the large flock of grazing sheep and replies: "Okay." The young man parks the car, connects his laptop to the mobile-fax, entersa NASA Webster, scans the Ground using his GPS, opens a database and 60 Excel tables filled with logarithms and pivot tables, then prints out a 150 page report on his high-tech mini-printer. He turns to the shepherd and says, "You have exactly 1,586 sheep here.." The shepherd cheers,"that's correct, you can have your sheep." The young man makes his pick and puts it in the back of his Porsche. The shepherd looks at him and asks: "If I guess your profession, will you return my animal to me?" The young man answers, "Yes, why not". The shepherd says, "You are an IT consultant ". How did you know?" asks the young man. "Very simple," answers the shepherd. "First, you came here without being called.. Second, you charged me a fee to tell me something I already knew, and third, you don't understand anything about my business... Now can I have my DOG back?"                                                                                                                                                                                                                                     If you are not the intended addressee, please inform us immediately that you have received this e-mail in error, and delete it. We thank you for your cooperation. ________________________________ Add more friends to your messenger and enjoy! Invite them now. Bollywood news, movie reviews, film trailers and more! Go to http://in.movies.yahoo.com/ From sub_sengupta at yahoo.co.in Fri Apr 17 23:18:44 2009 From: sub_sengupta at yahoo.co.in (subhrodip sengupta) Date: Fri, 17 Apr 2009 23:18:44 +0530 (IST) Subject: [Reader-list] foreign and dryness. Message-ID: <563639.13777.qm@web94705.mail.in2.yahoo.com>   Well 'what is foreign' question by one of our reputed scribes seemingly gave a new flavour to an otherwise sour-turned discussion. In between competibg groups, or erstwhile allies with similar propaganda, the question is of extent and degree. What is foreignness, why is it imbibed, is it asscsciated with foreign interests, what kind of Interests, and a less frequently answered question ever since Marx's time vis-a-vis domestic interests, what positive effects will it have on society. I think it was Lenin who for the first time integrated Oriental colonies into the mainstream class struggle. Even this seems to be missing in today's context. Feiw who are are against displacement and SEZs. Yet I rarely find much coverage, except a strong Urge of DEVELOPMENT, what kind of do not ask me, I find many of them are not clear about it. Hey self employment, Kunmarappa-gandhi models are good, but except inflation and terrorrism, old ghosts, I'd say for I'd rather prefer to see a Sherawat or latest hot dance song rather than these useless vent of frustration, but what is in store for a youngster like me, or rather a chunk of the population who have entered the sufferrage?  OK factories, Jobs, but at what cost? What assures me that it wouldnt fail like other industrialisation plans? What about a freer, happier life, a freedom to marry or at least live with someone i like? Tauba tauba, we need BPO's we need Hospitality, Co-eds, but NO yes, a Strict NO-NO to living together. What else can be expected from a homo-phobic world(please sense a joke in it for senses of many including erstwhile me had dried up if not for election fever, definitely by summer heat!) And I have not read articles about this new advertising campaign going on---Election fethism, few parties do really choose the direct ad in television, why and what are their expectations. Note this is a way to introduce new ideas, but also makes us think hard because all of a sudden we have become so important why? I do not know how the Indian political fever will frame itself, it could, but it rather seems it is going through stagnation, or whether there will be any new reforms or tragjectories. When someone calling for an united nation joins supporters of a bi-got no one raises a hue and cry.  No-one highlights mining streel industry has a bright futute, in-spite of trying to pull in industries of their choice, trying to aim guns at Animal Spirits. Everyone shouts Recession, Recession and bailouts without trying to get degree and extent of it. Let me tell you how recession has hit Delhi, would have put up an article about the financial crisis and recession in india, but Exam time, well will put up some interesting parody on Du exams later on too, promise! Yes the formula--- If one man can be made to do work of three then fire two, makes sense when there is fever. Who could ever fire on Animal Spirits, who could try to solve the Recession? Why not ? Is india's think tank running dry? Satyam is clearly not case for every firm. Well what about providing accident insurance to workers. Election day, stiitng at home I hear experiences of people beaten by CRPF or Homeguard Security but media chooses not to report it. Dry. What do people want ok other than peace and happiness who can show them a dream? We hit on Multiplexes and IPL as political stunts but none want theater and socially educated crowd, because then they would never behave as a mob. And workers rights? Well all they need is a fat-pay pack, hiked just before polls as an incentive of certain employees. NO thats definitely not hike, and workers do not stay back at home and Bunk most of them do not. The sad part is india has reached a state where Bigotism has questioned the existance of the Seventh largest nation off course not without it's failure to make it's postive influence felt across evry corner and people take state in such places too seriously, I mean it's sphere of influence, or do not debate the influence over maligned instruments like police which has nexus with evils. Everytime a police officer refuses to lodge an FIR is also the same time that loclas and media men remain silent, and now in a mad rush to make numbers and off course add-up extra gain every party is trying to form it's own government in the centre with a promise to it's people  We'll bring lion's share home. Another parody. Indeed, in a nation where more than 30% expenditure goes on Ammunition instead of medical relief, and many benifits that officials should recieve do not because of rules and regulations, a country where private capital and government go hand in hand, evreryone nearly converges. And left out is a dry debate. A very dry debate. To the Foriegn question on Sanata dharma, I say Athiti Devo Bhabo! By the way couldnt people taking about phiosophy also take up some debates on various facets? Surely they can but woud they? Neuclear debate--- sitting in SRcc someone is speaking about it. He ignores the compactness and waste-handling methods that have been followed in India, as many aspects such as fuel costs etc Why/ because we are not Engineers. Similarly technocrats ignore societal facts at times. A debate which is required never develops. Laloo speaks strategically at IIMs, so that he can explain Surplus-bluff stuff, thanks thy'd not allow me or I'd ask why surplus than no quality improvemnt sir, while subsidy to Airlines. The class bias is clear risisng and the question removed from politics, introduced is caste bias which would be more popular, again ignored in mainsteam when we talk of women empowerment, why are wives mere spokeswomen of husbands or Rabri's fuming is brushed aside! May be this is India. Still where it was '20s,  Sasta hain, chaalta hain! Add more friends to your messenger and enjoy! Go to http://messenger.yahoo.com/invite/ From sub_sengupta at yahoo.co.in Fri Apr 17 23:34:16 2009 From: sub_sengupta at yahoo.co.in (subhrodip sengupta) Date: Fri, 17 Apr 2009 23:34:16 +0530 (IST) Subject: [Reader-list] welcome joke this summer Message-ID: <519190.92570.qm@web94701.mail.in2.yahoo.com> here's something serious to see shoe attack a new kind a protest n a joke! http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/India/Net-to-protect-Narendra-Modi-from-possible-shoe-attack/articleshow/4415769.cms Drink plenty of water and after shade cool under some take some lemon and a pinch of salt, wear light clothes, and  sunglasses and a hat(plus nose protection reduces chances of sunstoke  (OOPF Take CARE,ok also skin uv rays have increased), and, comments welcome. Add more friends to your messenger and enjoy! Go to http://messenger.yahoo.com/invite/ From sub_sengupta at yahoo.co.in Fri Apr 17 23:46:42 2009 From: sub_sengupta at yahoo.co.in (subhrodip sengupta) Date: Fri, 17 Apr 2009 23:46:42 +0530 (IST) Subject: [Reader-list] =?utf-8?q?=28no_subject=29?= Message-ID: <731518.640.qm@web94701.mail.in2.yahoo.com> you know,every angle has some truth in it! the same same problem at various stages yet different factors. The degree of effectiveness and policy is a matter of debate. here's the one on which I was sayin' American english but understandable, I hope! Someone more proficient and articulate could please take up case or debate against it! http://www.jokes.com/funny/ron-white/ron-white--wake-up-call Here's the joke! Add more friends to your messenger and enjoy! Go to http://messenger.yahoo.com/invite/ From sub_sengupta at yahoo.co.in Sat Apr 18 00:17:05 2009 From: sub_sengupta at yahoo.co.in (subhrodip sengupta) Date: Sat, 18 Apr 2009 00:17:05 +0530 (IST) Subject: [Reader-list] =?utf-8?q?=28no_subject=29?= Message-ID: <558952.98177.qm@web94715.mail.in2.yahoo.com> http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/Delhi-girl-dies-in-coma-after-school-punishment/videoshow/4413951.cms While in an anti-ragging campaign at an engineering college while I was discussing the responsibility and criminal accountability of head of institution, I accidentally enraged a few members of faculty and was charged of being impractical. How can the head controll such things, in 3 in night? Now looking back three concerns are raised: 1.Punitive action vs Corporal punishment rights to exclude or reform, reason and extent. Courts should be clear on it. 2. Training for teachers human beings like us, to excersice corrective measure and class controll. 3. YEs for Head of Institution, all this 'poor chap' is supposed is to build a culture. Was excessive beating prevalent. In ragging cases, why were'nt staff adequately warned, if it is a ragging case then it was a targeted crime, at a known point in time, & building general stress free culture, ensuring confidence through say friendliness & trying to explain what constitutes a wrong, for eg what constitutes ragging, what is seduction, what is harrassment, what exactly and to distingush it from ordinary gestures, & what for example is Corporal Punishment? What is or can be a child guilty of and how much should he be punished---- juvenile justice. But schools, I guess do not breed juveniles, so hoe corrective measures can be taken. I repeat in most cases, cases have been known to exist but authorities for some reason of leaniency, or mis-reading intentions allowed it. One seat, all the power, to ask a parent to withdraw, to promote, all the glamour, shouldnt it be sensitive. In criminology it's called ---- criminal negligence. If he/she is too busy, someone should be entrusted. I think ot os not a case of a one-moment gone wrong! Even if it is, it has behind a culture off the razor edge! Authorities should be taken in for questioning. Thats how culture is built if the need be by force. Social engineering, or else would they be more pleased with groups entering by force and staging dramas before students, Surrender, i suggest! Admit! In the school I studied most of the excesses were by teachers who used excess not against juveniles but ordinary students. These grow up into gen next sadists and build juveniles who go unnoticed. I repeat, Surrender( I know as a profession there is bound to be resistance and empathy, but when integrity is questioned, methods must be reviewed, which again doesnt mean bowing down, demeaned or loosing stature or self esteem, it means, justifying(the modus-opreandi). While interrogation deeper roots like flimsy politics or interests(business) etc. will be revealed so it's a challege for the investigator also. Check out the all-new Messenger 9.0! Go to http://in.messenger.yahoo.com/ From shuddha at sarai.net Sat Apr 18 00:21:57 2009 From: shuddha at sarai.net (Shuddhabrata Sengupta) Date: Sat, 18 Apr 2009 00:21:57 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] The Communist Conspiracy ! In-Reply-To: <6b79f1a70904171049u68293888kf906d1891a3edc83@mail.gmail.com> References: <6b79f1a70904171049u68293888kf906d1891a3edc83@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: Pawan, The Communist Party of India and its various off shoots over the years have a great deal to answer for, not least for their continuing fealty to the cult of Stalinism, one of the terrible monstrosities of the twentieth century. I have no doubts about that at all. However, in our zeal to interrogate the legacy of the Communist Parties in this country, we need to be careful in terms of distinguishing a desire to question from a desire to abuse. And I think it makes sense to distinguish fact from fiction. The article referred by you offers no sources, cites no evidence for any of the accusations it makes. And some of the allegations it makes are truly hilarious. For instance - here is a priceless one - "During the Ranadive party-line in 1948-50, Mahatma Gandhi was “unmasked” as the cleverest bourgeois scoundrel and Rabindranath as mãgeer dãlãl, that is, a pimp." Rabindranath Tagore died on August 7, 1941, so it is a bit specious on the part of the author to suggest that the undivided CPI's Ranadive period (1948-50) would have seen attacks on someone who was not alive. I would like to see where exactly the author finds the source of this statement. Saumyendranath Tagore, the poet's nephew was a significant communist activist (though he belonged to the RCPI, which stood to the 'left' of the undivided CPI) and Tagore maintained cordial relationships with several communist activists and intellectuals. It is a little known fact that Tagore actually worked very hard to ensure that the civil rights of communist detenues in British prisons throughout the 1920s and 30s. If anything, the undivided CPI firmly took on Tagore's legacy and in some ways interpreted it to its own ends, Tagore's poems and songs were regularly part of the CPI's cultural universe. I know this for certain, because among other things, I know that CPI activists when they were forced to work 'underground' in the 1940s often worked 'overground' through Tagore Memorial Societies in small towns and villages in Bengal. This was by no means insincere. The undivided CPI did however downplay the fact that thoughTagore had expressed admiration for the social strides made in the Soviet Union, he had also been sharply critical of the Stalin regime's suppression of the freedom of expression. Certain intellectuals associated with the Chinese Communist Party had been sharply critical of Tagore during his visit to China in the 1920s. Some other intellectuals and writers associated with the Chinese Communist Party were welcoming and appreciative. However, the criticism of some of these intellectuals of Tagore never gained any currency, either during the 1920s, or afterwards, in Indian communist circles. As for Bose, yes, he was caricatured in cartoons in the CPI's paper 'Peoples War' as a stooge of Japanese Imperialism. And no one can deny the fact that Subhash Bose was both a subordinate bit player in Japanese Imperial Military Strategy, and a long time admirer of Fascist and Nazi methods. He was not alone in this, both he and Golwalkar of the RSS have stated (on record) their admiration for Nazi Germany. Read the unexpurgated edition of 'We, our Our Nationhood Defined' by Golwalkar, and the 'Indian Struggle' by Bose. Both are not very difficult to find. I personally think that the people of South Asia were spared great calamities by the timely exit of the deeply authoritarian and militarist Bose from the Indian political scene after 1945. Bose in power would certainly have worked towards a fascist programme, his own stated political intentions were quite explicit in this matter. As for the charge of being collaborators of the British in the 1940s. The reality is (as usual) a little more complicated than you would perhaps like. Thousands of Communist party members and activists were imprisoned, some for more than a decade, without charge, from the 1920s onwards. The party itself was deemed illegal. In 1942, when the undivided CPI declared that it would support the war effort in India, because Britain and the USSR were on the same side in the war, the undivided CPI was legalized, and some Communist detenus and political prisoners were released (many of whom were re arrested soon after). However, it is true that the undivided CPI got a breather of sorts. Police surveillance on Communists, however, continued, especially on those, who participated in the 42 struggles in their individual capacities. Several other organizations and individuals aided the war effort of the then British Colonial regime in India. Including the RSS and the Hindu Mahasabha, and its eminences such as Savarkar. Savarkar regularly addressed rallies for recruitment in the colonial regime's army. So, if the source you pointed to is justified in dubbing activists of the undivided CPI as spies for the British, then the same charge could just as justifiably levelled against the RSS, the Hindu Mahasabha and the predecessors and inspirations of the current Hindutva family of organizations, including political parties such as the BJP. Shuddha Shuddhabrata Sengupta The Sarai Programme at CSDS Raqs Media Collective shuddha at sarai.net www.sarai.net www.raqsmediacollective.net Shuddhabrata Sengupta The Sarai Programme at CSDS Raqs Media Collective shuddha at sarai.net www.sarai.net www.raqsmediacollective.net From sub_sengupta at yahoo.co.in Sat Apr 18 00:33:51 2009 From: sub_sengupta at yahoo.co.in (subhrodip sengupta) Date: Sat, 18 Apr 2009 00:33:51 +0530 (IST) Subject: [Reader-list] Swiss Bank accounts---please visit TOI site on ADVANI calla OSAMA OBAMA & a couple of afterthoughts. Message-ID: <781260.95310.qm@web94711.mail.in2.yahoo.com> Obama BIn Laden has secret Funds, We'll bring back Indian Funds from swiss bank, as if people will co-operater with NSO or sniffers will be deployed. If possible what'll be the modus-operandi? LK Advani am experienced leader has a bright idea this time, to do nation more good, but what'll be the scenario like if successful. Less incentives for hoarding black money, a bright future, or more investment or Nazi-india? Surely socialism is't possible. Or is it an old election prank like reducing power-cuts in Delhi, with referrence to my article on Invertors. Yet this time it was well picked title for such an article by TOI(cheers!) else people could have ignored it as an election gimmick. An afterthought Indian academicia has gone well beyond liberalisation frenzy-maniacs and phobiacs, to a question of degree and mode(anyways some of it is reality). This unfornunately thrives still in political sectors, as foreign. Foreign to me is foreign in-toto. Accepting something that doesnt suit me like foreign particle on eye etc, this is dangerous and can harm me. And drawing analogy to current medicine obviously escessive use of antibiotics to curb antigens is hazardous to health. Immunity is built through advertising culture, knowing who we are, social research rather than anti-terror laws or anti-imperial demonstration, here is where I feel dumping foreign goods only thrives the local evil. MY uncle is an engineer, and govt pressurises him to go local. He opposes on grounds of quality and silently somewhere I support him! Add more friends to your messenger and enjoy! Go to http://messenger.yahoo.com/invite/ From shuddha at sarai.net Sat Apr 18 00:39:37 2009 From: shuddha at sarai.net (Shuddhabrata Sengupta) Date: Sat, 18 Apr 2009 00:39:37 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Why do Schools and Colleges in India Kill? Message-ID: <539E5D98-76EF-4A1F-B630-06A356F73001@sarai.net> Dear All, I find the incidence of deaths due to 'ragging' in educational institutions in india and the recent death of a young girl, a student of Class three, Shanno Khan, in a municipal school in Delhi caused by the corporal punishment meted out to her by her teacher because she could not tell the meaning of a word in English, totally shocking. Why is this murderous authoritarianism so prevalent in places of education in India. Why do students and teachers behave like executioners and impose so much violence on those weaker or smaller or younger than them? What is it about the nature of education and pedagogy in our society that makes it so conducive to producing little fascists and martinets? I hope this list can take some time to reflect on this. best Shuddha Shuddhabrata Sengupta The Sarai Programme at CSDS Raqs Media Collective shuddha at sarai.net www.sarai.net www.raqsmediacollective.net From pawan.durani at gmail.com Sat Apr 18 00:57:31 2009 From: pawan.durani at gmail.com (Pawan Durani) Date: Sat, 18 Apr 2009 00:57:31 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] The Communist Conspiracy ! In-Reply-To: References: <6b79f1a70904171049u68293888kf906d1891a3edc83@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <6b79f1a70904171227l47c70b43lb8cd5ca7816c20ad@mail.gmail.com> Shuddha, Thank you for your detailed mail . However why are communists always a suspect to integrity of India ? Is it not true that Communists originally wanted India to be divided into 17 different sovereign states , more like failed 'USSR' ? This is a well documented fact . Why is it that the CPI is not even clear when it was formed ...was it 1920 or 1925 ? Was it formed in USSR or India ? Why are the Communists so obsessed with the division of the country ? I am not interested in RSS , Mahasabha or BJP . They are all 'right' wing party .And if they have been wrong , why does a communist have to justify their act by comparing it with that of RSS or Gowalkar etc. Two wrongs dont make one right . I just wanted to learn if the communists have a clean past......the present is all well know to us and is being exhibited in Kerela with an electoral alliance with Madhani. It would make an interesting understanding if you would explain further ! Pawan On Sat, Apr 18, 2009 at 12:21 AM, Shuddhabrata Sengupta wrote: > Pawan, > > The Communist Party of India and its various off shoots over the years have > a great deal to answer for, not least for their continuing fealty to the > cult of Stalinism, one of the terrible monstrosities of the twentieth > century. I have no doubts about that at all. > > However, in our zeal to interrogate the legacy of the Communist Parties in > this country, we need to be careful in terms of distinguishing a desire to > question from a desire to abuse. And I think it makes sense to distinguish > fact from fiction. > > The article referred by you offers no sources, cites no evidence for any of > the accusations it makes. And some of the allegations it makes are truly > hilarious. > > For instance - here is a priceless one - > > "During the Ranadive party-line in 1948-50, Mahatma Gandhi was “unmasked” > as the cleverest bourgeois scoundrel and Rabindranath as mãgeer dãlãl, that > is, a pimp." > Rabindranath Tagore died on August 7, 1941, so it is a bit specious on the > part of the author to suggest that the undivided CPI's Ranadive period > (1948-50) would have seen attacks on someone who was not alive. > I would like to see where exactly the author finds the source of this > statement. > > Saumyendranath Tagore, the poet's nephew was a significant communist > activist (though he belonged to the RCPI, which stood to the 'left' of the > undivided CPI) and Tagore maintained cordial relationships with several > communist activists and intellectuals. It is a little known fact that Tagore > actually worked very hard to ensure that the civil rights of communist > detenues in British prisons throughout the 1920s and 30s. > > If anything, the undivided CPI firmly took on Tagore's legacy and in some > ways interpreted it to its own ends, Tagore's poems and songs were regularly > part of the CPI's cultural universe. I know this for certain, because among > other things, I know that CPI activists when they were forced to work > 'underground' in the 1940s often worked 'overground' through Tagore Memorial > Societies in small towns and villages in Bengal. This was by no means > insincere. > > The undivided CPI did however downplay the fact that thoughTagore had > expressed admiration for the social strides made in the Soviet Union, he had > also been sharply critical of the Stalin regime's suppression of the freedom > of expression. > > Certain intellectuals associated with the Chinese Communist Party had been > sharply critical of Tagore during his visit to China in the 1920s. Some > other intellectuals and writers associated with the Chinese Communist Party > were welcoming and appreciative. However, the criticism of some of these > intellectuals of Tagore never gained any currency, either during the 1920s, > or afterwards, in Indian communist circles. > > As for Bose, yes, he was caricatured in cartoons in the CPI's paper > 'Peoples War' as a stooge of Japanese Imperialism. And no one can deny the > fact that Subhash Bose was both a subordinate bit player in Japanese > Imperial Military Strategy, and a long time admirer of Fascist and Nazi > methods. He was not alone in this, both he and Golwalkar of the RSS have > stated (on record) their admiration for Nazi Germany. Read the unexpurgated > edition of 'We, our Our Nationhood Defined' by Golwalkar, and the 'Indian > Struggle' by Bose. Both are not very difficult to find. I personally think > that the people of South Asia were spared great calamities by the timely > exit of the deeply authoritarian and militarist Bose from the Indian > political scene after 1945. Bose in power would certainly have worked > towards a fascist programme, his own stated political intentions were quite > explicit in this matter. > > As for the charge of being collaborators of the British in the 1940s. The > reality is (as usual) a little more complicated than you would perhaps like. > Thousands of Communist party members and activists were imprisoned, some for > more than a decade, without charge, from the 1920s onwards. The party itself > was deemed illegal. In 1942, when the undivided CPI declared that it would > support the war effort in India, because Britain and the USSR were on the > same side in the war, the undivided CPI was legalized, and some Communist > detenus and political prisoners were released (many of whom were re arrested > soon after). However, it is true that the undivided CPI got a breather of > sorts. Police surveillance on Communists, however, continued, especially on > those, who participated in the 42 struggles in their individual capacities. > > Several other organizations and individuals aided the war effort of the > then British Colonial regime in India. Including the RSS and the Hindu > Mahasabha, and its eminences such as Savarkar. Savarkar regularly addressed > rallies for recruitment in the colonial regime's army. > > So, if the source you pointed to is justified in dubbing activists of the > undivided CPI as spies for the British, then the same charge could just as > justifiably levelled against the RSS, the Hindu Mahasabha and the > predecessors and inspirations of the current Hindutva family of > organizations, including political parties such as the BJP. > > Shuddha > > > > > > Shuddhabrata Sengupta > The Sarai Programme at CSDS > Raqs Media Collective > shuddha at sarai.net > www.sarai.net > www.raqsmediacollective.net > > > Shuddhabrata Sengupta > The Sarai Programme at CSDS > Raqs Media Collective > shuddha at sarai.net > www.sarai.net > www.raqsmediacollective.net > > > From shuddha at sarai.net Sat Apr 18 01:25:42 2009 From: shuddha at sarai.net (Shuddhabrata Sengupta) Date: Sat, 18 Apr 2009 01:25:42 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] The Communist Conspiracy ! In-Reply-To: <6b79f1a70904171227l47c70b43lb8cd5ca7816c20ad@mail.gmail.com> References: <6b79f1a70904171049u68293888kf906d1891a3edc83@mail.gmail.com> <6b79f1a70904171227l47c70b43lb8cd5ca7816c20ad@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <0AB2F866-775B-4D5E-B250-28F4E0533882@sarai.net> 1. The programme of Communist Parties (as it was expressed during and after the first world war) was against Nationalism in all forms. In contrast, today, and since Stalin's adoption of the theory of 'Socialism in One Country' almost all Communist parties endorse nationalism in one form or the other. 2. This includes all Communist Parties in India. Every Indian Communist Party (none of whom I support) declares loudly and clearly that it wants to protect the nation-state in india. This is a deviation from the reasons why those who were to become Communists broke with the prevailing nationalist currents in Social Democratic parties in the early twentieth century. They broke because they considered loyalty to the international working class movement more important than loyalty to any form of the nation state. 3. For me, the fact that the undivided CPI supported the Pakistan demand is just as meaningless as the fact that its successors now support Indian Nationalism. Nationalism, whether Pakistani, or Indian, is a means to divide the oppressed classes of one country from their counterparts in others. A consistent communist position on the national question would mean opposition to all forms of 'national liberation'. This is the position of Marx and Rosa Luxemburg. The fact that those who call themselves communists have stopped doing this for a long time is an indication of how low they have fallen from the heights they once occupied. 4. The Empire of British India, (the state that India and Pakistan inherited) was a prison house of many peoples, and the prison house continued exactly as it had done after independence and partition. Though I am not interested in nationalism of any sort. A post-1947 scenario of smaller states (as happened when other Empires broke up) may have made more sense than the two behemoths of India and Pakistan that continue to stagger through history. Had there been smaller post 1947 states, we probably would have seen a European Union type of move towards greater confederal consolidation by now. There certainly would not have been the bloated armies and nuclear arsenals that we see in South Asia today. This might have meant more allocation of resources for health, education, housing and less attrition, perhaps calmer populations. Smaller states in South Asia would probably not have been able to afford such irrational luxuries (as bloated militaries) , nor would they have got drawn into the Cold War in the way that India and Pakistan did through the fifties, sixties, seventies and eighties. 5. As far as I know, the undivided CPI was formed in 1925 in Tashkent, by Indian exiles in the Soviet Union. Several communist circles existed in India at that time, but since the effort at forming a party was deemed illegal, the first 'official' party was formed elsewhere. However, before (and after) 1925 several communists continued to work in 'Kisan Mazdoor Parties' and 'Lal Nishan' in Bengal and Punjab. Several of these activists were already in prison or in preventive custody, so they were formally outside the undivided CPI, as they were not in a condition to join it, some did not even know about it. Many, in fact most, joined in the brief intervals when they were released after 1925 6. You are right, two wrongs do not make a right. But, I think the circumstances of the period 1942-45 are complex, and I do not think that the decisions that people and parties took in that turmoil can be best described as 'right' or 'wrong'. Just as you say you are not interested in defending the RSS, I too am not interested in defending the undivided CPI. I am merely pointing out to you that in this case, both these organizations effectively followed the same course of action, namely a tacit collaboration with the British Raj's war aims during a period of the Second World War. As for now, I think that it is shameful that the CPI(M) in Kerala works with the tacit endorsement of a blatant Muslim Fundamentalist like Madani. I see absolutely no difference between Hindu and Muslim Communalism. if the CPI (M) takes the support of Madani today, they might as well end up supporting and being supported by the RSS (or some faction of it) some day. I would not at all be surprised if that were to happen, someday. Shuddha On 18-Apr-09, at 12:57 AM, Pawan Durani wrote: > Shuddha, > > Thank you for your detailed mail . However why are communists > always a suspect to integrity of India ? > > Is it not true that Communists originally wanted India to be > divided into 17 different sovereign states , more like failed > 'USSR' ? This is a well documented fact . > > Why is it that the CPI is not even clear when it was formed ...was > it 1920 or 1925 ? Was it formed in USSR or India ? > > Why are the Communists so obsessed with the division of the country ? > > I am not interested in RSS , Mahasabha or BJP . They are all > 'right' wing party .And if they have been wrong , why does a > communist have to justify their act by comparing it with that of > RSS or Gowalkar etc. > > Two wrongs dont make one right . I just wanted to learn if the > communists have a clean past......the present is all well know to > us and is being exhibited in Kerela with an electoral alliance with > Madhani. > > It would make an interesting understanding if you would explain > further ! > > Pawan > > On Sat, Apr 18, 2009 at 12:21 AM, Shuddhabrata Sengupta > wrote: > Pawan, > > The Communist Party of India and its various off shoots over the > years have a great deal to answer for, not least for their > continuing fealty to the cult of Stalinism, one of the terrible > monstrosities of the twentieth century. I have no doubts about that > at all. > > However, in our zeal to interrogate the legacy of the Communist > Parties in this country, we need to be careful in terms of > distinguishing a desire to question from a desire to abuse. And I > think it makes sense to distinguish fact from fiction. > > The article referred by you offers no sources, cites no evidence > for any of the accusations it makes. And some of the allegations it > makes are truly hilarious. > > For instance - here is a priceless one - > > "During the Ranadive party-line in 1948-50, Mahatma Gandhi was > “unmasked” as the cleverest bourgeois scoundrel and Rabindranath as > mãgeer dãlãl, that is, a pimp." > > Rabindranath Tagore died on August 7, 1941, so it is a bit specious > on the part of the author to suggest that the undivided CPI's > Ranadive period (1948-50) would have seen attacks on someone who > was not alive. > I would like to see where exactly the author finds the source of > this statement. > > Saumyendranath Tagore, the poet's nephew was a significant > communist activist (though he belonged to the RCPI, which stood to > the 'left' of the undivided CPI) and Tagore maintained cordial > relationships with several communist activists and intellectuals. > It is a little known fact that Tagore actually worked very hard to > ensure that the civil rights of communist detenues in British > prisons throughout the 1920s and 30s. > > If anything, the undivided CPI firmly took on Tagore's legacy and > in some ways interpreted it to its own ends, Tagore's poems and > songs were regularly part of the CPI's cultural universe. I know > this for certain, because among other things, I know that CPI > activists when they were forced to work 'underground' in the 1940s > often worked 'overground' through Tagore Memorial Societies in > small towns and villages in Bengal. This was by no means insincere. > > The undivided CPI did however downplay the fact that thoughTagore > had expressed admiration for the social strides made in the Soviet > Union, he had also been sharply critical of the Stalin regime's > suppression of the freedom of expression. > > Certain intellectuals associated with the Chinese Communist Party > had been sharply critical of Tagore during his visit to China in > the 1920s. Some other intellectuals and writers associated with the > Chinese Communist Party were welcoming and appreciative. However, > the criticism of some of these intellectuals of Tagore never gained > any currency, either during the 1920s, or afterwards, in Indian > communist circles. > > As for Bose, yes, he was caricatured in cartoons in the CPI's paper > 'Peoples War' as a stooge of Japanese Imperialism. And no one can > deny the fact that Subhash Bose was both a subordinate bit player > in Japanese Imperial Military Strategy, and a long time admirer of > Fascist and Nazi methods. He was not alone in this, both he and > Golwalkar of the RSS have stated (on record) their admiration for > Nazi Germany. Read the unexpurgated edition of 'We, our Our > Nationhood Defined' by Golwalkar, and the 'Indian Struggle' by > Bose. Both are not very difficult to find. I personally think that > the people of South Asia were spared great calamities by the timely > exit of the deeply authoritarian and militarist Bose from the > Indian political scene after 1945. Bose in power would certainly > have worked towards a fascist programme, his own stated political > intentions were quite explicit in this matter. > > As for the charge of being collaborators of the British in the > 1940s. The reality is (as usual) a little more complicated than you > would perhaps like. Thousands of Communist party members and > activists were imprisoned, some for more than a decade, without > charge, from the 1920s onwards. The party itself was deemed > illegal. In 1942, when the undivided CPI declared that it would > support the war effort in India, because Britain and the USSR were > on the same side in the war, the undivided CPI was legalized, and > some Communist detenus and political prisoners were released (many > of whom were re arrested soon after). However, it is true that the > undivided CPI got a breather of sorts. Police surveillance on > Communists, however, continued, especially on those, who > participated in the 42 struggles in their individual capacities. > > Several other organizations and individuals aided the war effort of > the then British Colonial regime in India. Including the RSS and > the Hindu Mahasabha, and its eminences such as Savarkar. Savarkar > regularly addressed rallies for recruitment in the colonial > regime's army. > > So, if the source you pointed to is justified in dubbing activists > of the undivided CPI as spies for the British, then the same charge > could just as justifiably levelled against the RSS, the Hindu > Mahasabha and the predecessors and inspirations of the current > Hindutva family of organizations, including political parties such > as the BJP. > > Shuddha > > > > > > Shuddhabrata Sengupta > The Sarai Programme at CSDS > Raqs Media Collective > shuddha at sarai.net > www.sarai.net > www.raqsmediacollective.net > > > Shuddhabrata Sengupta > The Sarai Programme at CSDS > Raqs Media Collective > shuddha at sarai.net > www.sarai.net > www.raqsmediacollective.net > > > Shuddhabrata Sengupta The Sarai Programme at CSDS Raqs Media Collective shuddha at sarai.net www.sarai.net www.raqsmediacollective.net From c.anupam at gmail.com Sat Apr 18 02:29:06 2009 From: c.anupam at gmail.com (anupam chakravartty) Date: Sat, 18 Apr 2009 02:29:06 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Varun tortured in jail: BJP In-Reply-To: <6353c690904170924i2c966a7ekee590cc43e73becd@mail.gmail.com> References: <6353c690904170505u211ef84fj9167183c8f9c6627@mail.gmail.com> <6353c690904170635q8d24576tf75ab85fc1120911@mail.gmail.com> <341380d00904170651p6a822c95u4e401d6b7e3782f9@mail.gmail.com> <341380d00904170655v174fe85p2bd75142c2e9723c@mail.gmail.com> <6353c690904170712k4cbd2b14y98cedbd7e8955dd6@mail.gmail.com> <341380d00904170745t3fddc679xed1779ed46c5dcaa@mail.gmail.com> <341380d00904170855y7ccfb596j7828d8d92693e836@mail.gmail.com> <6353c690904170908g5fa92993x1282f895b207337c@mail.gmail.com> <6353c690904170924i2c966a7ekee590cc43e73becd@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <341380d00904171359j7434aceeyb25cdb283887256f@mail.gmail.com> Dear Inder, This is what I saw and here's the build up . There are several other sourcestoo: regards anupam for aditya: dude grow up! On 4/17/09, Aditya Raj Kaul wrote: > > Dear Rakeshji, > > I second your honest observations and recommendations. Would try to follow > them. > > Lets hope others too join in rather than just enjoying pass time here on > Sarai. > > thanks anyways. > > > On Fri, Apr 17, 2009 at 9:48 PM, Rakesh Iyer > wrote: > > > Dear Aditya jee > > > > I don't think just because someone doesnt' believe in something, or > > anywhere else, should you be making fun and dismissing arguments of > people. > > It's one thing not to believe in something, but some respect should be > > given. > > > > And even if you say Anupam has done the same thing against you, I would > say > > that winning battles on Sarai by such posts only points to egoism and > > nothing else. And we are not here to massage our egos and show them off, > we > > are here to discuss issues. > > > > I would request the moderators of Sarai list to please banish such > personal > > potshots being taken here, and debar such posts from appearing. That > would > > ensure focus on issues rather than personalities. (and such posts too) > > > > Regards > > > > Rakesh > > > > > > -- > Aditya Raj Kaul > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > subscribe in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> From rakesh.rnbdj at gmail.com Sat Apr 18 03:21:36 2009 From: rakesh.rnbdj at gmail.com (Rakesh Iyer) Date: Sat, 18 Apr 2009 03:21:36 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] The Communist Conspiracy ! In-Reply-To: <0AB2F866-775B-4D5E-B250-28F4E0533882@sarai.net> References: <6b79f1a70904171049u68293888kf906d1891a3edc83@mail.gmail.com> <6b79f1a70904171227l47c70b43lb8cd5ca7816c20ad@mail.gmail.com> <0AB2F866-775B-4D5E-B250-28F4E0533882@sarai.net> Message-ID: Dear Shuddha One can't say about support between the CPI and RSS, but one must not forget that the Left and BJP together supported the V.P.Singh government in 1989 post elections. And this was one of the most ominous times in India's life as a state. Regards Rakesh From yasir.media at gmail.com Sat Apr 18 03:50:47 2009 From: yasir.media at gmail.com (=?windows-1256?B?eWFzaXIgfu3HINPR?=) Date: Sat, 18 Apr 2009 03:20:47 +0500 Subject: [Reader-list] Muslims in Ramadhan & 51 Shakti Peeths In-Reply-To: <634056.36743.qm@web53609.mail.re2.yahoo.com> References: <529601.74624.qm@web57206.mail.re3.yahoo.com> <634056.36743.qm@web53609.mail.re2.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <5af37bb0904171520j72ddb511kdd86bdf42a10bf82@mail.gmail.com> it is sobering to note there are overlapping geographic universals From pkray11 at gmail.com Sat Apr 18 05:07:19 2009 From: pkray11 at gmail.com (prakash ray) Date: Sat, 18 Apr 2009 05:07:19 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] The Communist Conspiracy ! Message-ID: <98f331e00904171637u4e47cb27s2b3e0fe3bf03de01@mail.gmail.com> Dear Pawan, Kindly see these books available from LEFTWORD (http://www.leftword.com) On the National and Colonial Questions Selected Writings By: Karl Marx and Frederick Engels Edited By: Aijaz Ahmad Savarkar and Hindutva The Godse Connection By: A.G. Noorani People’s Diary of Freedom Struggle Edited By: Sitaram Yechury The Great Revolt A Left Appraisal Edited By: Sitaram Yechury The Babri Masjid Question, 1528-2003, Vol. I 'A Matter of National Honour' Edited By: A.G.Noorani The Babri Masjid Question, 1528-2003, Vol. II 'A Matter of National Honour' Edited By: A.G. Noorani Negotiating India's Past Essays in Memory of Parth Sarathi Gupta Edited By: Biswamoy Pati, B.P. Sahu & T.K. Venkatasubramanian History of the Communist Movement in India Volume 1: The Formative Years, 1920-1933 By: Harkishan Singh Surjeet et al. Memoires 25 Communnist Freedom Fighters By: Harkishan Singh Surjeet et al. Bhagat Singh Liberation By: P.M.S. Grewal Documents of the Communist Movement in India Vol. 1-26 (including Part I and Part II of Vol. 10) By: Harkishan Singh Surjeet Edited By: Jyoti Basu The Jail Notebook and Other Writings By: Bhagat Singh Edited By: Chaman Lal The Zakir Husain Memorial Lectures 1992-2004 Zakir Husain College - University of Delhi By: P.C. Joshi, Irfan Habib, Prabhat Patnaik, et al. In the Making Identity Formation in South Asia By: Kamaljit Bhasin-Malik Religion in Indian History Edited By: Irfan Habib People’s Diary of Freedom Struggle Edited By: Sitaram Yechury Ayodhya Archaeology after Excavation By: D. Mandal & Shereen Ratnagar I hope these books will address your queries. PKR From taraprakash at gmail.com Sat Apr 18 05:48:57 2009 From: taraprakash at gmail.com (taraprakash) Date: Fri, 17 Apr 2009 20:18:57 -0400 Subject: [Reader-list] The Communist Conspiracy ! References: <6b79f1a70904171049u68293888kf906d1891a3edc83@mail.gmail.com> <6b79f1a70904171227l47c70b43lb8cd5ca7816c20ad@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <541CB6F87D3942B49E6ECCBCD315CE90@tara> To be honest, the people who are the most visible in India with their mask of communism, and those about whom you pretend to explore by your mail, have behaved like fascists and opportunists in the past. In that, they are not better, nor worse than RSS. Hence both of them being mentioned by Shuddha in his response makes sense to me. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Pawan Durani" To: "Shuddhabrata Sengupta" Cc: "sarai list" Sent: Friday, April 17, 2009 3:27 PM Subject: Re: [Reader-list] The Communist Conspiracy ! > Shuddha, > Thank you for your detailed mail . However why are communists always a > suspect to integrity of India ? > > Is it not true that Communists originally wanted India to be divided into > 17 > different sovereign states , more like failed 'USSR' ? This is a well > documented fact . > > Why is it that the CPI is not even clear when it was formed ...was it 1920 > or 1925 ? Was it formed in USSR or India ? > > Why are the Communists so obsessed with the division of the country ? > > I am not interested in RSS , Mahasabha or BJP . They are all 'right' wing > party .And if they have been wrong , why does a communist have to justify > their act by comparing it with that of RSS or Gowalkar etc. > > Two wrongs dont make one right . I just wanted to learn if the communists > have a clean past......the present is all well know to us and is being > exhibited in Kerela with an electoral alliance with Madhani. > > It would make an interesting understanding if you would explain further ! > > Pawan > > On Sat, Apr 18, 2009 at 12:21 AM, Shuddhabrata Sengupta > wrote: > >> Pawan, >> >> The Communist Party of India and its various off shoots over the years >> have >> a great deal to answer for, not least for their continuing fealty to the >> cult of Stalinism, one of the terrible monstrosities of the twentieth >> century. I have no doubts about that at all. >> >> However, in our zeal to interrogate the legacy of the Communist Parties >> in >> this country, we need to be careful in terms of distinguishing a desire >> to >> question from a desire to abuse. And I think it makes sense to >> distinguish >> fact from fiction. >> >> The article referred by you offers no sources, cites no evidence for any >> of >> the accusations it makes. And some of the allegations it makes are truly >> hilarious. >> >> For instance - here is a priceless one - >> >> "During the Ranadive party-line in 1948-50, Mahatma Gandhi was “unmasked” >> as the cleverest bourgeois scoundrel and Rabindranath as mãgeer dãlãl, >> that >> is, a pimp." >> Rabindranath Tagore died on August 7, 1941, so it is a bit specious on >> the >> part of the author to suggest that the undivided CPI's Ranadive period >> (1948-50) would have seen attacks on someone who was not alive. >> I would like to see where exactly the author finds the source of this >> statement. >> >> Saumyendranath Tagore, the poet's nephew was a significant communist >> activist (though he belonged to the RCPI, which stood to the 'left' of >> the >> undivided CPI) and Tagore maintained cordial relationships with several >> communist activists and intellectuals. It is a little known fact that >> Tagore >> actually worked very hard to ensure that the civil rights of communist >> detenues in British prisons throughout the 1920s and 30s. >> >> If anything, the undivided CPI firmly took on Tagore's legacy and in >> some >> ways interpreted it to its own ends, Tagore's poems and songs were >> regularly >> part of the CPI's cultural universe. I know this for certain, because >> among >> other things, I know that CPI activists when they were forced to work >> 'underground' in the 1940s often worked 'overground' through Tagore >> Memorial >> Societies in small towns and villages in Bengal. This was by no means >> insincere. >> >> The undivided CPI did however downplay the fact that thoughTagore had >> expressed admiration for the social strides made in the Soviet Union, he >> had >> also been sharply critical of the Stalin regime's suppression of the >> freedom >> of expression. >> >> Certain intellectuals associated with the Chinese Communist Party had >> been >> sharply critical of Tagore during his visit to China in the 1920s. Some >> other intellectuals and writers associated with the Chinese Communist >> Party >> were welcoming and appreciative. However, the criticism of some of these >> intellectuals of Tagore never gained any currency, either during the >> 1920s, >> or afterwards, in Indian communist circles. >> >> As for Bose, yes, he was caricatured in cartoons in the CPI's paper >> 'Peoples War' as a stooge of Japanese Imperialism. And no one can deny >> the >> fact that Subhash Bose was both a subordinate bit player in Japanese >> Imperial Military Strategy, and a long time admirer of Fascist and Nazi >> methods. He was not alone in this, both he and Golwalkar of the RSS have >> stated (on record) their admiration for Nazi Germany. Read the >> unexpurgated >> edition of 'We, our Our Nationhood Defined' by Golwalkar, and the 'Indian >> Struggle' by Bose. Both are not very difficult to find. I personally >> think >> that the people of South Asia were spared great calamities by the timely >> exit of the deeply authoritarian and militarist Bose from the Indian >> political scene after 1945. Bose in power would certainly have worked >> towards a fascist programme, his own stated political intentions were >> quite >> explicit in this matter. >> >> As for the charge of being collaborators of the British in the 1940s. The >> reality is (as usual) a little more complicated than you would perhaps >> like. >> Thousands of Communist party members and activists were imprisoned, some >> for >> more than a decade, without charge, from the 1920s onwards. The party >> itself >> was deemed illegal. In 1942, when the undivided CPI declared that it >> would >> support the war effort in India, because Britain and the USSR were on the >> same side in the war, the undivided CPI was legalized, and some Communist >> detenus and political prisoners were released (many of whom were re >> arrested >> soon after). However, it is true that the undivided CPI got a breather of >> sorts. Police surveillance on Communists, however, continued, especially >> on >> those, who participated in the 42 struggles in their individual >> capacities. >> >> Several other organizations and individuals aided the war effort of the >> then British Colonial regime in India. Including the RSS and the Hindu >> Mahasabha, and its eminences such as Savarkar. Savarkar regularly >> addressed >> rallies for recruitment in the colonial regime's army. >> >> So, if the source you pointed to is justified in dubbing activists of the >> undivided CPI as spies for the British, then the same charge could just >> as >> justifiably levelled against the RSS, the Hindu Mahasabha and the >> predecessors and inspirations of the current Hindutva family of >> organizations, including political parties such as the BJP. >> >> Shuddha >> >> >> >> >> >> Shuddhabrata Sengupta >> The Sarai Programme at CSDS >> Raqs Media Collective >> shuddha at sarai.net >> www.sarai.net >> www.raqsmediacollective.net >> >> >> Shuddhabrata Sengupta >> The Sarai Programme at CSDS >> Raqs Media Collective >> shuddha at sarai.net >> www.sarai.net >> www.raqsmediacollective.net >> >> >> > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > subscribe in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> From pawan.durani at gmail.com Sat Apr 18 10:59:36 2009 From: pawan.durani at gmail.com (Pawan Durani) Date: Sat, 18 Apr 2009 10:59:36 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] The Communist Conspiracy ! In-Reply-To: <0AB2F866-775B-4D5E-B250-28F4E0533882@sarai.net> References: <6b79f1a70904171049u68293888kf906d1891a3edc83@mail.gmail.com> <6b79f1a70904171227l47c70b43lb8cd5ca7816c20ad@mail.gmail.com> <0AB2F866-775B-4D5E-B250-28F4E0533882@sarai.net> Message-ID: <6b79f1a70904172229j59ea30f1o8112e730fac5bf90@mail.gmail.com> Dear Shuddha , Thoughts that emerge out are 1. Communists parties in India are not following the 'real' communist ideology. That the Communists parties in India are more or less more opportunistic who dont stick to their policies and deviate for their own gains. 2. You seem to be more of a hardcore 'communist' and not satisfied with 'Nationhood' policies of the Indian Communists. 3. You believe that the world or people in South Asia would have been much better and place more peaceful , had India been divided into smaller sovereign states. 4. You do not support the Communists policy of supporting radical Islamic politician and alleged terrorist Madani in Kerela . However I would like to know what may be the compuslion of this alliance .....electoral gains ? not letting Hindu right wing leaders getting elected even if it means having an alliance with an alleged terrorist ? 5. Roy had founded the Indian Communist party in 1920 in USSR , though in 1924 or 25 the party was again claimed to be founded by [ don't recall the name ] . 6. I somehow am surprised to learn ,in plain terms, your hate for Netaji Subhash Chander Bose. Netaji was a great freedom fighter. Would like to learn why does the left brigade hate 'Netaji'. 7. Though you may have given an explanation that the leftist were close to Tagores institution , however sometimes back I had read a letter written by Rabindra Nath tagore , and in that letter he did not seem to hold good views about the communists. I would try to search for that particular letter. 8. Is it not the fact that according to Vasili Mithrokhin who had secret KGB document , it was allaeged that Indian Communists were on payroll of KGB ? 9. What kind of disciplinary action did Communits take when it was alleged that senior communist leaders like Dange and Rajeshwar rao were supposed to be reaceiving money and favours from KGB . 10. Is it not true that the biggest corruption in India was founded by the Communists , who traded with India and introduced the 'middle man' phenomena ? Would like to learn more .... Pawan Durani www.thekashmir.wordpress.com On Sat, Apr 18, 2009 at 1:25 AM, Shuddhabrata Sengupta wrote: > 1. The programme of Communist Parties (as it was expressed during and > after the first world war) was against Nationalism in all forms. In > contrast, today, and since Stalin's adoption of the theory of 'Socialism in > One Country' almost all Communist parties endorse nationalism in one form or > the other. > > 2. This includes all Communist Parties in India. Every Indian Communist > Party (none of whom I support) declares loudly and clearly that it wants to > protect the nation-state in india. This is a deviation from the reasons why > those who were to become Communists broke with the prevailing nationalist > currents in Social Democratic parties in the early twentieth century. They > broke because they considered loyalty to the international working class > movement more important than loyalty to any form of the nation state. > > 3. For me, the fact that the undivided CPI supported the Pakistan demand is > just as meaningless as the fact that its successors now support Indian > Nationalism. Nationalism, whether Pakistani, or Indian, is a means to divide > the oppressed classes of one country from their counterparts in others. A > consistent communist position on the national question would mean opposition > to all forms of 'national liberation'. This is the position of Marx and Rosa > Luxemburg. > The fact that those who call themselves communists have stopped doing this > for a long time is an indication of how low they have fallen from the > heights they once occupied. > > 4. The Empire of British India, (the state that India and Pakistan > inherited) was a prison house of many peoples, and the prison house > continued exactly as it had done after independence and partition. Though I > am not interested in nationalism of any sort. A post-1947 scenario of > smaller states (as happened when other Empires broke up) may have made more > sense than the two behemoths of India and Pakistan that continue to stagger > through history. Had there been smaller post 1947 states, we probably would > have seen a European Union type of move towards greater confederal > consolidation by now. > > There certainly would not have been the bloated armies and nuclear > arsenals that we see in South Asia today. This might have meant more > allocation of resources for health, education, housing and less attrition, > perhaps calmer populations. > > Smaller states in South Asia would probably not have been able to afford > such irrational luxuries (as bloated militaries) , nor would they have got > drawn into the Cold War in the way that India and Pakistan did through the > fifties, sixties, seventies and eighties. > > 5. As far as I know, the undivided CPI was formed in 1925 in Tashkent, by > Indian exiles in the Soviet Union. Several communist circles existed in > India at that time, but since the effort at forming a party was deemed > illegal, the first 'official' party was formed elsewhere. However, before > (and after) 1925 several communists continued to work in 'Kisan Mazdoor > Parties' and 'Lal Nishan' in Bengal and Punjab. Several of these activists > were already in prison or in preventive custody, so they were formally > outside the undivided CPI, as they were not in a condition to join it, some > did not even know about it. Many, in fact most, joined in the brief > intervals when they were released after 1925 > > 6. You are right, two wrongs do not make a right. But, I think the > circumstances of the period 1942-45 are complex, and I do not think that the > decisions that people and parties took in that turmoil can be best described > as 'right' or 'wrong'. Just as you say you are not interested in defending > the RSS, I too am not interested in defending the undivided CPI. I am merely > pointing out to you that in this case, both these organizations effectively > followed the same course of action, namely a tacit collaboration with the > British Raj's war aims during a period of the Second World War. > > As for now, I think that it is shameful that the CPI(M) in Kerala works > with the tacit endorsement of a blatant Muslim Fundamentalist like Madani. I > see absolutely no difference between Hindu and Muslim Communalism. if the > CPI (M) takes the support of Madani today, they might as well end up > supporting and being supported by the RSS (or some faction of it) some day. > I would not at all be surprised if that were to happen, someday. > > Shuddha > > > > > > > On 18-Apr-09, at 12:57 AM, Pawan Durani wrote: > > Shuddha, > Thank you for your detailed mail . However why are communists always a > suspect to integrity of India ? > > > > > Is it not true that Communists originally wanted India to be divided into > 17 different sovereign states , more like failed 'USSR' ? This is a well > documented fact . > > Why is it that the CPI is not even clear when it was formed ...was it 1920 > or 1925 ? Was it formed in USSR or India ? > > Why are the Communists so obsessed with the division of the country ? > > I am not interested in RSS , Mahasabha or BJP . They are all 'right' wing > party .And if they have been wrong , why does a communist have to justify > their act by comparing it with that of RSS or Gowalkar etc. > > Two wrongs dont make one right . I just wanted to learn if the communists > have a clean past......the present is all well know to us and is being > exhibited in Kerela with an electoral alliance with Madhani. > > It would make an interesting understanding if you would explain further ! > > Pawan > > On Sat, Apr 18, 2009 at 12:21 AM, Shuddhabrata Sengupta > wrote: > >> Pawan, >> >> The Communist Party of India and its various off shoots over the years >> have a great deal to answer for, not least for their continuing fealty to >> the cult of Stalinism, one of the terrible monstrosities of the twentieth >> century. I have no doubts about that at all. >> >> However, in our zeal to interrogate the legacy of the Communist Parties in >> this country, we need to be careful in terms of distinguishing a desire to >> question from a desire to abuse. And I think it makes sense to distinguish >> fact from fiction. >> >> The article referred by you offers no sources, cites no evidence for any >> of the accusations it makes. And some of the allegations it makes are truly >> hilarious. >> >> For instance - here is a priceless one - >> >> "During the Ranadive party-line in 1948-50, Mahatma Gandhi was “unmasked” >> as the cleverest bourgeois scoundrel and Rabindranath as mãgeer dãlãl, that >> is, a pimp." >> Rabindranath Tagore died on August 7, 1941, so it is a bit specious on the >> part of the author to suggest that the undivided CPI's Ranadive period >> (1948-50) would have seen attacks on someone who was not alive. >> I would like to see where exactly the author finds the source of this >> statement. >> >> Saumyendranath Tagore, the poet's nephew was a significant communist >> activist (though he belonged to the RCPI, which stood to the 'left' of the >> undivided CPI) and Tagore maintained cordial relationships with several >> communist activists and intellectuals. It is a little known fact that Tagore >> actually worked very hard to ensure that the civil rights of communist >> detenues in British prisons throughout the 1920s and 30s. >> >> If anything, the undivided CPI firmly took on Tagore's legacy and in some >> ways interpreted it to its own ends, Tagore's poems and songs were regularly >> part of the CPI's cultural universe. I know this for certain, because among >> other things, I know that CPI activists when they were forced to work >> 'underground' in the 1940s often worked 'overground' through Tagore Memorial >> Societies in small towns and villages in Bengal. This was by no means >> insincere. >> >> The undivided CPI did however downplay the fact that thoughTagore had >> expressed admiration for the social strides made in the Soviet Union, he had >> also been sharply critical of the Stalin regime's suppression of the freedom >> of expression. >> >> Certain intellectuals associated with the Chinese Communist Party had been >> sharply critical of Tagore during his visit to China in the 1920s. Some >> other intellectuals and writers associated with the Chinese Communist Party >> were welcoming and appreciative. However, the criticism of some of these >> intellectuals of Tagore never gained any currency, either during the 1920s, >> or afterwards, in Indian communist circles. >> >> As for Bose, yes, he was caricatured in cartoons in the CPI's paper >> 'Peoples War' as a stooge of Japanese Imperialism. And no one can deny the >> fact that Subhash Bose was both a subordinate bit player in Japanese >> Imperial Military Strategy, and a long time admirer of Fascist and Nazi >> methods. He was not alone in this, both he and Golwalkar of the RSS have >> stated (on record) their admiration for Nazi Germany. Read the unexpurgated >> edition of 'We, our Our Nationhood Defined' by Golwalkar, and the 'Indian >> Struggle' by Bose. Both are not very difficult to find. I personally think >> that the people of South Asia were spared great calamities by the timely >> exit of the deeply authoritarian and militarist Bose from the Indian >> political scene after 1945. Bose in power would certainly have worked >> towards a fascist programme, his own stated political intentions were quite >> explicit in this matter. >> >> As for the charge of being collaborators of the British in the 1940s. The >> reality is (as usual) a little more complicated than you would perhaps like. >> Thousands of Communist party members and activists were imprisoned, some for >> more than a decade, without charge, from the 1920s onwards. The party itself >> was deemed illegal. In 1942, when the undivided CPI declared that it would >> support the war effort in India, because Britain and the USSR were on the >> same side in the war, the undivided CPI was legalized, and some Communist >> detenus and political prisoners were released (many of whom were re arrested >> soon after). However, it is true that the undivided CPI got a breather of >> sorts. Police surveillance on Communists, however, continued, especially on >> those, who participated in the 42 struggles in their individual capacities. >> >> Several other organizations and individuals aided the war effort of the >> then British Colonial regime in India. Including the RSS and the Hindu >> Mahasabha, and its eminences such as Savarkar. Savarkar regularly addressed >> rallies for recruitment in the colonial regime's army. >> >> So, if the source you pointed to is justified in dubbing activists of the >> undivided CPI as spies for the British, then the same charge could just as >> justifiably levelled against the RSS, the Hindu Mahasabha and the >> predecessors and inspirations of the current Hindutva family of >> organizations, including political parties such as the BJP. >> >> Shuddha >> >> >> >> >> >> Shuddhabrata Sengupta >> The Sarai Programme at CSDS >> Raqs Media Collective >> shuddha at sarai.net >> www.sarai.net >> www.raqsmediacollective.net >> >> >> Shuddhabrata Sengupta >> The Sarai Programme at CSDS >> Raqs Media Collective >> shuddha at sarai.net >> www.sarai.net >> www.raqsmediacollective.net >> >> >> > > Shuddhabrata Sengupta > The Sarai Programme at CSDS > Raqs Media Collective > shuddha at sarai.net > www.sarai.net > www.raqsmediacollective.net > > > From rajen882uppinangadi at gmail.com Sat Apr 18 11:54:10 2009 From: rajen882uppinangadi at gmail.com (Rajen Uppinangadi) Date: Sat, 18 Apr 2009 11:54:10 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Varun tortured in the jail, detention of vendetta politics. Message-ID: <61164a90904172324v3bd70018v8bfbd3055f3fa06e@mail.gmail.com> Dear All, It is amusing to see the human rights activists, that too senior ones rushing to sabarmathi jail to see if the human rights are violated of bomb blasts accused, because they belong to a particular faith, and the amusing comments and counters in the list for another person who was detained in NSA for "alleged" remarks that he would be defender of another community against traitors of the nation, even self defence in case of attack and rape is not possible for the community if numerical strength is higher in society, they have to "tolerate" the insults.? As to the human rights committee and its "senior" activists, it can be seen that one John Dayal, is the clergy of evangelists, rolling in foreign funds for "uplifting " of the poor souls in poor regions of India with priests and nuns of seminaries from Kerala who being unemployed, find the jobs of god's work quite pleasurable with lots of sensuous pleasure factored in., along with good pay and incentives for harvesting the souls of tribals and poor pagans. As to accused in jails, who misbehave, who indulge in violence over trivial matters because they have support of "activists" who are again creation for vote bank politics is the real tragedy in democracy as these human right activists are more concerned of rights of inhumans in society than the rights of victims of their inhuman acts. Democracy where sections get extra governance at the cost of discrimination to other sections, is not good governance. This extra governance is by and large due to the vote banks, because of the faith. Such a shame, and as to vasectomies, and varun, Anupam has to remember that the coersion in the emergency days led to the defeat of the party and ballot answered the brute force in most humble and non violent manner. Also, if ones parents or father is deviant it does not necessarily follow that son is also deviant. To say that he will be defending his community against barbaric acts of fanatics is not an issue that indian media overhyped at the time of elections, and media has set the agenda for the parties and hate is the media game for awards and rewards.That a nation with one billion people should hear and watch the discussion about an "honest" prime minister and a prime minister in waiting talk of weak and strong , which are again relative subjective terms , is national waste of energy, instead, if only these weak PM and strong PM in waiting used their energies to enlighten the voters with what would be issues of good governance in the nation, it would greatly faciltate better understanding of what type of leadership the nation is going to get. Regards, Rajen. From c.anupam at gmail.com Sat Apr 18 12:13:00 2009 From: c.anupam at gmail.com (anupam chakravartty) Date: Sat, 18 Apr 2009 12:13:00 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Varun tortured in the jail, detention of vendetta politics. In-Reply-To: <61164a90904172324v3bd70018v8bfbd3055f3fa06e@mail.gmail.com> References: <61164a90904172324v3bd70018v8bfbd3055f3fa06e@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <341380d00904172343v72cc0936h2f3c48a3964807b4@mail.gmail.com> Dear Rajen, I am glad you admit this at least: "ballot answered the brute force in most humble and non violent manner". regards -- anupam On 4/18/09, Rajen Uppinangadi wrote: > > Dear All, > > It is amusing to see the human rights activists, that too senior ones > rushing to sabarmathi jail to see if the human rights are violated of bomb > blasts accused, because they belong to a particular faith, and the amusing > comments and counters in the list for another person who was detained in NSA > for "alleged" remarks that he would be defender of another community against > traitors of the nation, even self defence in case of attack and rape is not > possible for the community if numerical strength is higher in society, they > have to "tolerate" the insults.? > > As to the human rights committee and its "senior" activists, it can be > seen that one John Dayal, is the clergy of evangelists, rolling in foreign > funds for "uplifting " of the poor souls in poor regions of India with > priests and nuns of seminaries from Kerala who being unemployed, find the > jobs of god's work quite pleasurable with lots of sensuous pleasure factored > in., along with good pay and incentives for harvesting the souls of tribals > and poor pagans. > As to accused in jails, who misbehave, who indulge in violence over > trivial matters because they have support of "activists" who are again > creation for vote bank politics is the real tragedy in democracy as these > human right activists are more concerned of rights of inhumans in society > than the rights of victims of their inhuman acts. > > Democracy where sections get extra governance at the cost of > discrimination to other sections, is not good governance. This extra > governance is by and large due to the vote banks, because of the faith. Such > a shame, and as to vasectomies, and varun, Anupam has to remember that the > coersion in the emergency days led to the defeat of the party and ballot > answered the brute force in most humble and non violent manner. > > Also, if ones parents or father is deviant it does not necessarily follow > that son is also deviant. To say that he will be defending his community > against barbaric acts of fanatics is not an issue that indian media > overhyped at the time of elections, and media has set the agenda for the > parties and hate is the media game for awards and rewards.That a nation > with one billion people should hear and watch the discussion about an > "honest" prime minister and a prime minister in waiting talk of weak and > strong , which are again relative subjective terms , is national waste of > energy, instead, if only these weak PM and strong PM in waiting used their > energies to enlighten the voters with what would be issues of good > governance in the nation, it would greatly faciltate better understanding of > what type of leadership the nation is going to get. > > Regards, > > Rajen. > From rajen882uppinangadi at gmail.com Sat Apr 18 12:09:31 2009 From: rajen882uppinangadi at gmail.com (Rajen Uppinangadi) Date: Sat, 18 Apr 2009 12:09:31 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Varun and vendetta of hate politics. Message-ID: <61164a90904172339m46149e6y4e1af3a8a2a1c77d@mail.gmail.com> Rakesh, all seem to be so impressed with Rathyathra and its negative side is being searched on, forgetting the positives of the yathra.? For the first time in free India, hindu community lost in caste conundrums was united as one hindu community, ofcourse to the chagrin of oldest party of the nation as it lived on divided polity, divided on castes. As to riots and death, it was not because of yathra, but because of Yadav clan in Bihar, led by Lalu yadav, who arrested and stopped the yathra to appease his partners in crime of MY combination, supported by anothet mulla of Mulayam Yadav, who lives with divisions of votes on faith lines and money bags. If only Advan in his six years as Home minister, facilitated the temple at Ayodhya, today, we would have had the better governance without appeasement based on caste and faith.?The courts do not take a decision, the committees on both sides of the dispute have no common ground to sort out, how the issue has to be solved when talks and decent dialogue fails to sole, in civilised society.? Both the communities who have in 1947 have assured to live like brothers in the nation state, wish had the courage to stay away from vested interests. For, pre independence when Gokhale started the ganapathi mandals, it was muslims who decorated the place for entire community of hindus and muslims, their particiaption was equal if not more in the festivities in maharashtra.In Delhi, the phoolwalonki sair is the proof of the sections of the society being in harmonious living withour rancour. All this canged only because of the honest PM talking of first bite of governance and such nonsense.Governance should be to all without discrimination. Regards, Rajen. From rakesh.rnbdj at gmail.com Sat Apr 18 12:31:06 2009 From: rakesh.rnbdj at gmail.com (Rakesh Iyer) Date: Sat, 18 Apr 2009 12:31:06 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Varun and vendetta of hate politics. In-Reply-To: <61164a90904172339m46149e6y4e1af3a8a2a1c77d@mail.gmail.com> References: <61164a90904172339m46149e6y4e1af3a8a2a1c77d@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: Dear Rajen You are probably mistaken on many issues here to begin with. In states like Gujarat and Rajasthan, as soon as Advani left with his Rath, there were riots. Rajasthan had riots at many places for the first time, and many were stunned with the savagery witnessed during these riots. Moreover, in Gujarat, prior to 1992, even during riots, women and children were never attacked. But Advani's Rath Yatra and the combination of lumpen elements and Sangh Parivar cadre ensured total chaos and destruction and even rapes on women on a scale never witnessed. Lalu arrested Advani after quite a long time from the time yatra sarted. And while there were riots after this, there were riots and breakdown of law and order even prior to this arrest. As for unity of Hindus, I couldnt' care less. What has this unity achieved. It's a unity forged by the Brahman-Bania combine in the BJP to satisfy their own hunger for power. Has this unity actually helped the Dalits and tribals improve their social and economic standing? No. Not even in Gujarat, where tribals and Dalits constitute a significant portion of the population, and they have been misled into the Hindutva regime. I would term that brainwashing, as much as Mao did in China as well. Anyway, when did tribals become Hindus is anybody's guess. Tribals never asked to be made Hindus. As for Dalits, they were never made to feel like one. They were never allowed to enter temples since a pretty long time, and this practice still continues even now. And what the BJP and Sangh Parivar has done is only ensured division of people for opportunistic gains, like the Left too has done (although they do try to improve the life of the downtrodden and the poor upto a limited extent.) I had said it once, I will say it once again: 'Taakat logon ko jodne se badhti hai, unhein khilaaf karne se nahi (quote: Amitabh Bachchan in Sarkar)' . If the BJP's aim is to make India a superpower (I dont' feel we should become one, but for now forget it), then we are not going to become a superpower by targetting our own minorities. Each time we do so as in Gujarat 2002, the world powers will ask us questions which we would never be able to answer. And one important source of power according to Western conceptions in today's world, is the extent of freedom people in a nation have. And that freedom is reducing everyday, thanks to the BJP. Now you decide, if you want India to be a superpower, you want to vote for it, or against it. Choice is yours. Regards Rakesh From pkray11 at gmail.com Sat Apr 18 13:31:53 2009 From: pkray11 at gmail.com (prakash ray) Date: Sat, 18 Apr 2009 13:31:53 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Irfan Habib's appeal to vote for the Left Message-ID: <98f331e00904180101x6446345y15dbf67a38d745b4@mail.gmail.com> Irfan Habib (Professor Emeritus, Aligarh Muslim University) has issued an appeal to vote for the Left. Here is the text - “As India goes to polls to elect the country’s Parliament it is crucial for us to realize that the interests of all sections of our people, the poor, the workers, peasants, and the middle classes, will be served best by electing to Parliament the largest possible number of candidates of the CPI(M) and other Left parties. It was because of the efforts of the Left Parties that the ruling Congress was unable to implement many of its projected measures designed to favour big business at the cost of the people. The Left Parties have uncompromisingly fought against the Congress government’s increasing subservience to US imperialism and growing closeness to Israel. They have also unflinchingly stood up for secularism, women’s rights, affirmative action for minorities and protection of dalits’ interests. By voting firmly for the Left Front candidates, people will surely help to change the destiny of the whole country.” - Irfan Habib (Professor Emeritus, Aligarh Muslim University) (http://www.vote.cpim.org/node/1404) From ysaeed7 at yahoo.com Sat Apr 18 13:51:49 2009 From: ysaeed7 at yahoo.com (Yousuf) Date: Sat, 18 Apr 2009 01:21:49 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Reader-list] Can't we shut Reader-List temporarily until polls are over Message-ID: <414325.70578.qm@web51408.mail.re2.yahoo.com> From pawan.durani at gmail.com Sat Apr 18 14:35:42 2009 From: pawan.durani at gmail.com (Pawan Durani) Date: Sat, 18 Apr 2009 14:35:42 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Irfan Habib's appeal to vote for the Left In-Reply-To: <98f331e00904180101x6446345y15dbf67a38d745b4@mail.gmail.com> References: <98f331e00904180101x6446345y15dbf67a38d745b4@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <6b79f1a70904180205w43d59e9dv73d9f63eb655c9a4@mail.gmail.com> Dear Group Moderator, I wonder if this does not go against your directions few days back. You had promised that Election Appeal would be withheld. I am not against Mr Ray posting an appeal for Communists . It is a democratic right for a Communist. However I am surprised that a similar appeal by our former Prime Minister in favour of Advani Ji , was not liked by some fellow members of this group. Please let us know the policy which you would adhere to. Pawan On Sat, Apr 18, 2009 at 1:31 PM, prakash ray wrote: > Irfan Habib (Professor Emeritus, Aligarh Muslim University) has issued an > appeal to vote for the Left. Here is the text - > > “As India goes to polls to elect the country’s Parliament it is crucial for > us to realize that the interests of all sections of our people, the poor, > the workers, peasants, and the middle classes, will be served best by > electing to Parliament the largest possible number of candidates of the > CPI(M) and other Left parties. It was because of the efforts of the Left > Parties that the ruling Congress was unable to implement many of its > projected measures designed to favour big business at the cost of the > people. The Left Parties have uncompromisingly fought against the Congress > government’s increasing subservience to US imperialism and growing > closeness > to Israel. They have also unflinchingly stood up for secularism, women’s > rights, affirmative action for minorities and protection of dalits’ > interests. By voting firmly for the Left Front candidates, people will > surely help to change the destiny of the whole country.” > > - Irfan Habib (Professor Emeritus, Aligarh Muslim University) > (http://www.vote.cpim.org/node/1404) > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > subscribe in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> From rakesh.rnbdj at gmail.com Sat Apr 18 14:56:55 2009 From: rakesh.rnbdj at gmail.com (Rakesh Iyer) Date: Sat, 18 Apr 2009 14:56:55 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Irfan Habib's appeal to vote for the Left In-Reply-To: <6b79f1a70904180205w43d59e9dv73d9f63eb655c9a4@mail.gmail.com> References: <98f331e00904180101x6446345y15dbf67a38d745b4@mail.gmail.com> <6b79f1a70904180205w43d59e9dv73d9f63eb655c9a4@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: Dear all Prakash jee, please stop posting such mails of anyone asking to vote for anybody. This is not a forum for campaigning. And Pawan jee, your concern is right. Equally you should have accepted that you too did a wrong thing, if you point out the same mistake as yours for the moderator to take note of. And for the group moderator, please don't allow such messages to come in. This is not a forum for electioneering, but one for discussion. I have no issues with discussing BJP manifestos or Left manifesto as well (and I believe others too don't have issues), but please don't allow such electioneering messages to be posted. Regards Rakesh From kshmendra2005 at yahoo.com Sat Apr 18 15:43:16 2009 From: kshmendra2005 at yahoo.com (Kshmendra Kaul) Date: Sat, 18 Apr 2009 03:13:16 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Reader-list] Shameful Torture of 23 Muslims Prisoners on March 26-27 In Sabarmati Jail, Ahamedabad: A Report by Human Rights Activists In-Reply-To: <1f9180970904170247tb8cc85bk7048b05611c8a06d@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <922211.79580.qm@web57202.mail.re3.yahoo.com> Dear Venugopalan   Any mistreatment of prisoners in a jail is reprehensible.   However, do you think it was proper of you to give the Subject Line that you have given for this report?   The report expresses concern at the government (mis)handling of the beating up of 22 (not 23) jail inmates. It describes them as "most of them Muslim"    "Most of them Muslim" and not "All of them Muslim" as is rather unfortunately suggested by your Subject Line which gives quite a different sense.     Kshmendra   --- On Fri, 4/17/09, Venugopalan K M wrote: From: Venugopalan K M Subject: [Reader-list] Shameful Torture of 23 Muslims Prisoners on March 26-27 In Sabarmati Jail, Ahamedabad: A Report by Human Rights Activists To: "sarai-list" Date: Friday, April 17, 2009, 3:17 PM Dear Sir/Madam, Prelimanary Report of INDEPENDENT COMMITTEE ON INCIDENTS OF 26-27th MARCH 2009 IN SABARMATI JAIL, AHMEDABAD. *INDEPENDENT COMMITTEE ON INCIDENTS OF 26-27th MARCH 2009 IN SABARMATI JAIL, AHMEDABAD, GUJARAT* CAMP: People’s Union for Civil Liberties c/o Gandhi peace Foundation, Himavan, Paldi Char Rasta, Ahmadabad 380006 *PRESS NOTE* *AHMEDABAD, April 16, 2009* * * * * An Independent committee of senior national human rights activists has expressed its deep concern at the government handling of the beating up of 22 inmates of the Sabarmati Jail on 25 March 2009, and has called for a full enquiry, preferably a judicial one by a judge of the High Court, into gross violations of the Jail manual and human rights norms established by the Courts and the NHRC. Regrettably, the incident reinforces the image of Gujarat as a state where the human rights of religious minorities and weaker sections are not honoured. Inmates, most of them Muslim, who were on a hunger strike, were denied medical attention after a brutal attack on them by jail staff, which left at least three of them unconscious for so long as to start rumours in the city that they had died. They were subsequently denied access to counsel, their relatives were refused permission to meet them for three days, and then the Sabarmati Police station failed to register an FIR as sought by relatives and counsel of the victims. The independent committee consisted of Dr. John Dayal, Member, National Integration Council, Govt. of India, Adv. K. Kesavan, Joint Secretary, CPCL, Tamil Nadu, Dr. J. S. Bandukwala, President, PUCL, Gujarat, Dr. S. Q. R. Ilyas, Editor, Afkar-e-Milli, New Delhi, Mr. Gopal Menon, Film Maker, Bangalore, Mr. Mahtab Alam,Coordinator, Association for the Protection of Civil Rights (APCR), New Delhi, Ms. Harini Krishna, Film Maker, Mumbai, and Ms. Ruchi Shroff, Civil Rights Activist, Mumbai, Mr. Gautam Thakar, Secretary, Secretary, PUCL, Gujarat was in Ahmadabad from 15th to 16thApril 09. At a public hearing, the Committee heard statements from mothers, wives and sisters of the jail inmates who gave detailed narrative of the events in the jail as they had heard from the inmates when they were finally allowed to meet them. The women presented blood stained clothes of the inmates. Counsel gave the committee copies of the PIL filed in the Gujarat High Court, the medical report filed by two lawyers who had met the inmates in jail, as also correspondence with the jail and police authorities seeking justice and medical care for the injured. The committee made several efforts to approach the authorities. The committee in fact went to the Sabarmati jail and met Superintendent Chandrashekhar who refused permission to visit the concerned ward and meet the inmates. Inspector general of police Mr. Keshav Kumar, despite a written request followed up by repeated visits to his office and a telephone conversation with him would not find time for the committee. The visit to the Sabarmati Police station was an eye-opener where ACP Vaghela, SHO Joshi and Inspector Parmar all but justified the violence against the inmates saying they were criminals accused in Bomb blasts, and had indulged in violence in the Jail. The three officers admitted an FIR had been registered at the behest of the Jail authorities. They denied they had even received complaints from the families of the victims in this case. The investigating committee does not comment on the cases in which these 22 persons are in jail, or even on several other events that have taken place in the Sabarmati jail in recent weeks which go to show that all is not right with its administration. But it is clear from the testimony of the relatives of the victims and the admission of the police officers that the chain of events has been triggered off with the coming of the new Jail Superintendent who stopped long standing practices of taking ill and injured inmates to the civil hospital, provision of highly specialized medicine and curtailed other rights. It was in response to this that the prisoners went on a highly publicized hunger strike. The committee will submit a detailed report in a couple of weeks. But it is important to record its preliminary findings and recommendations. *Initial observation of the team * * * 1. *Beating of the Jail inmates are admitted in an affidavit filed by Jail authority.* 2. *Draconian jail manual laid down by the British is followed till date, even though parts of it are contradictory to our Constitution.* 3. *Advocates and relatives of the inmates were not allowed to meet for a long time, which is a serious violation of Prisoners’ Rights.* 4. *No FIR of the relatives has been registered till date.* 5. *Inspire of 22 prisoners suffering injuries, some of them being fractures, they were treated within the jail as our patients correctly, they should have been admitted to civil hospital. * * * *We demand that-* * * 1. *National Human Rights Commission should intervene on the issue and report to the Supreme Court.* 2. *Proper medical help should be given by the civil hospital. * 3. *PUCL Gujarat and Human Rights groups should be allowed to meet and gather first hand information. * * * * * Sd/- Dr John Dayal- 09811021072 Prof J S Badukwala Dr SQR Ilyas Mr. Gautam Thakar, Secretary, PUCL, Gujarat-09825382556 Released to the media for publication. regards, Mahtab MD. MAHTAB ALAM mdmahtaba... at gmail.com Phone:+ 91-9811209345 -- MD. MAHTAB ALAM mdmahtaba... at gmail.com Phone:+ 91-9811209345 Press Note ahmedabad 16 april 09.doc 41K View Download -- http://venukm.blogspot.com/ _________________________________________ reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. Critiques & Collaborations To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with subscribe in the subject header. To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> From rajeshr at csds.in Sat Apr 18 15:44:36 2009 From: rajeshr at csds.in (Rajesh Ramakrishnan) Date: Sat, 18 Apr 2009 15:44:36 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Buddhism, Political Violence and the Dilemmas of Democracy in Sri Lanka; CSDS, April 24, 5 PM In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: *24th April 2009, 5 PM * *Seminar Hall, CSDS* *29 Rajpur Road, Delhi - 110054* Rajni Kothari Annual Lecture *Buddhism, Political Violence and the Dilemmas of Democracy in Sri Lanka* by Professor Gananath Obeyesekere Gananath Obeyesekere is Emeritus Professor of Anthropology at Princeton University, and has been Rajni Kothari Chair Professor at CSDS since October 2008. He taught for twenty years in Princeton till he retired in 2000. Prior to that he was Professor of Anthropology at the University of California, San Diego, and earlier Professor of Sociology at Peradeniya. His research interests include: psychoanalysis and anthropology and the ways in which personal symbolism is related to religious experience; European voyages of discovery to Polynesia in the 18th century and after, and the implications of these voyages for the development of ethnography. His current research is on the phenomenology of the visionary experience, soon to be published as a book, *The Awakened Ones*. He is also re-evaluating notions of primitiveness and aboriginality through his work on the Veddas of Sri Lanka. Apart from these, he is a keen observer of the political situation in Sri Lanka. He is the author of six books and over a hundred scholarly articles. His books are: *Land Tenure in Village Ceylon: A Sociological and Historical Study;* *Medusa's Hair: An Essay on Personal Symbols and Religious Experience;* *The Cult of the Goddess Pattini;* *Buddhism Transformed* (with Richard Gombrich); *The Work of Culture: Symbolic Transformation in Psychoanalysis and Anthropology*; *The Apotheosis of Captain Cook: European Mythmaking in the Pacific*, and *Imagining Karma: Ethical Transformation in Amerindian, Buddhist and Greek Rebirth.* From pkray11 at gmail.com Sat Apr 18 16:03:51 2009 From: pkray11 at gmail.com (prakash ray) Date: Sat, 18 Apr 2009 16:03:51 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] On election reletaed posts Message-ID: <98f331e00904180333hfccaf62i5b5fb4bee688475a@mail.gmail.com> Dear all, I am unable to understand why some members have objected to my post related to the appeal to vote for the Left. When we debate issues and criticise political parties, leaders and formations during the Lok Sabha polls, we do take part in 'electioneering'. When some of you equate the Left with the RSS, it is a campaign against the Left. When some of you make a hero out of that hate-monger from Pilibhit, it is surely asking vote for the BJP. However, I will not post any message asking vote for the Left, but, I cannot be stopped from posting opinions on the political situation. I hope I make myself clear. PKR From kmvenuannur at gmail.com Sat Apr 18 17:51:42 2009 From: kmvenuannur at gmail.com (Venugopalan K M) Date: Sat, 18 Apr 2009 17:51:42 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Shameful Torture of 23 Muslims Prisoners on March 26-27 In Sabarmati Jail, Ahamedabad: A Report by Human Rights Activists In-Reply-To: <922211.79580.qm@web57202.mail.re3.yahoo.com> References: <1f9180970904170247tb8cc85bk7048b05611c8a06d@mail.gmail.com> <922211.79580.qm@web57202.mail.re3.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <1f9180970904180521x3453d13byd40ef733b81b3185@mail.gmail.com> Dear Rakesh , Kshmendra and others in the list, I am much obliged to you for pointing out the factual errors there in my post. I apologize for the error in the subject line that refers to the number of prisoners tortured as 23, whereas actually it is 22 as shown in the text. Secondly, I wish to acknowledge that I ought not have failed to note the difference between 'all' and 'most'. (Those were not intentional, and happened in some hurry to share my concern with readers here ) The object of the post was highlighting the fact that the jail authorities in the Sabarnati jail illtreated the prisoners, mostly Muslims and they were defying at least many of those jail norms associated with respect to the statutory obligation of the state vis a vis its prisoners. Let me quote from the preliminary findings of the citizen's report, as I think it must fit well in the context of many debates taking place here, particularly so because many of us here had been debating about the importance of Rule of Law despite our divergent political persuations: " Regrettably, the incident reinforces the image of Gujarat as a state where the human rights of religious minorities and weaker sections are not honoured" Yes, thus I too am concerned about this reinforced image,which is unfortunately sought to be denied repeatedly by at least some people here, dismissing it as the result of expressions of 'pseudo secularism' or anti-national propaganda ! I wish I could help it. Thanks, Venu. On Sat, Apr 18, 2009 at 3:43 PM, Kshmendra Kaul wrote: > Dear Venugopalan > > Any mistreatment of prisoners in a jail is reprehensible. > > However, do you think it was proper of you to give the Subject Line that you > have given for this report? > > The report expresses concern at the government (mis)handling of the beating > up of 22 (not 23) jail inmates. It describes them as "most of them Muslim" > > "Most of them Muslim" and not "All of them Muslim" as is rather > unfortunately suggested by your Subject Line which gives quite a different > sense. > > > Kshmendra > > --- On Fri, 4/17/09, Venugopalan K M wrote: > > From: Venugopalan K M > Subject: [Reader-list] Shameful Torture of 23 Muslims Prisoners on March > 26-27 In Sabarmati Jail, Ahamedabad: A Report by Human Rights Activists > To: "sarai-list" > Date: Friday, April 17, 2009, 3:17 PM > > Dear Sir/Madam, > Prelimanary Report of INDEPENDENT COMMITTEE ON INCIDENTS OF 26-27th MARCH > 2009 IN SABARMATI JAIL, > AHMEDABAD. > *INDEPENDENT COMMITTEE ON INCIDENTS OF 26-27th MARCH 2009 IN SABARMATI JAIL, > AHMEDABAD, GUJARAT* > CAMP: People’s Union for Civil Liberties c/o Gandhi peace Foundation, > Himavan, Paldi Char Rasta, Ahmadabad 380006 > *PRESS NOTE* > *AHMEDABAD, April 16, 2009* > * * > * * > An Independent committee of senior national human rights activists has > expressed its deep concern at the government handling of the beating up of > 22 inmates of the Sabarmati Jail on 25 March 2009, and has called for a full > enquiry, preferably a judicial one by a judge of the High Court, into gross > violations of the Jail manual and human rights norms established by the > Courts and the NHRC. Regrettably, the incident reinforces the image of > Gujarat as a state where the human rights of religious minorities and weaker > sections are not honoured. > Inmates, most of them Muslim, who were on a hunger strike, were denied > medical attention after a brutal attack on them by jail staff, which left at > least three of them unconscious for so long as to start rumours in the city > that they had died. They were subsequently denied access to counsel, their > relatives were refused permission to meet them for three days, and then the > Sabarmati Police station failed to register an FIR as sought by relatives > and counsel of the victims. > The independent committee consisted of Dr. John Dayal, Member, National > Integration Council, Govt. of India, Adv. K. Kesavan, Joint Secretary, CPCL, > Tamil Nadu, Dr. J. S. Bandukwala, President, PUCL, Gujarat, Dr. S. Q. R. > Ilyas, Editor, Afkar-e-Milli, New Delhi, Mr. Gopal Menon, Film Maker, > Bangalore, Mr. Mahtab Alam,Coordinator, Association for the Protection of > Civil Rights (APCR), New Delhi, Ms. Harini Krishna, Film Maker, Mumbai, and > Ms. Ruchi Shroff, Civil Rights Activist, Mumbai, Mr. Gautam Thakar, > Secretary, Secretary, PUCL, Gujarat was in Ahmadabad from 15th to > 16thApril 09. > At a public hearing, the Committee heard statements from mothers, wives and > sisters of the jail inmates who gave detailed narrative of the events in the > jail as they had heard from the inmates when they were finally allowed to > meet them. The women presented blood stained clothes of the inmates. Counsel > gave the committee copies of the PIL filed in the Gujarat High Court, the > medical report filed by two lawyers who had met the inmates in jail, as also > correspondence with the jail and police authorities seeking justice and > medical care for the injured. > The committee made several efforts to approach the authorities. The > committee in fact went to the Sabarmati jail and met Superintendent > Chandrashekhar who refused permission to visit the concerned ward and meet > the inmates. Inspector general of police Mr. Keshav Kumar, despite a written > request followed up by repeated visits to his office and a telephone > conversation with him would not find time for the committee. The visit to > the Sabarmati Police station was an eye-opener where ACP Vaghela, SHO Joshi > and Inspector Parmar all but justified the violence against the inmates > saying they were criminals accused in Bomb blasts, and had indulged in > violence in the Jail. The three officers admitted an FIR had been registered > at the behest of the Jail authorities. They denied they had even received > complaints from the families of the victims in this case. > The investigating committee does not comment on the cases in which these 22 > persons are in jail, or even on several other events that have taken place > in the Sabarmati jail in recent weeks which go to show that all is not right > with its administration. But it is clear from the testimony of the relatives > of the victims and the admission of the police officers that the chain of > events has been triggered off with the coming of the new Jail Superintendent > who stopped long standing practices of taking ill and injured inmates to the > civil hospital, provision of highly specialized medicine and curtailed other > rights. It was in response to this that the prisoners went on a highly > publicized hunger strike. > The committee will submit a detailed report in a couple of weeks. But it is > important to record its preliminary findings and recommendations. > *Initial observation of the team * > * * > 1. *Beating of the Jail inmates are admitted in an affidavit filed by > Jail authority.* > 2. *Draconian jail manual laid down by the British is followed till date, > even though parts of it are contradictory to our Constitution.* > 3. *Advocates and relatives of the inmates were not allowed to meet for a > long time, which is a serious violation of Prisoners’ Rights.* > 4. *No FIR of the relatives has been registered till date.* > 5. *Inspire of 22 prisoners suffering injuries, some of them being > fractures, they were treated within the jail as our patients correctly, > they > should have been admitted to civil hospital. * > * * > *We demand that-* > * * > 1. *National Human Rights Commission should intervene on the issue and > report to the Supreme Court.* > 2. *Proper medical help should be given by the civil hospital. * > 3. *PUCL Gujarat and Human Rights groups should be allowed to meet and > gather first hand information. * > * * > * * > Sd/- > Dr John Dayal- 09811021072 > Prof J S Badukwala > Dr SQR Ilyas > Mr. Gautam Thakar, Secretary, PUCL, Gujarat-09825382556 > Released to the media for publication. > regards, > Mahtab > MD. MAHTAB ALAM > mdmahtaba... at gmail.com > Phone:+ 91-9811209345 > -- > MD. MAHTAB ALAM > mdmahtaba... at gmail.com > Phone:+ 91-9811209345 > Press Note ahmedabad 16 april 09.doc > 41K View Download > -- > http://venukm.blogspot.com/ > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with subscribe > in > the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> > -- http://venukm.blogspot.com/ From kshmendra2005 at yahoo.com Sat Apr 18 18:37:42 2009 From: kshmendra2005 at yahoo.com (Kshmendra Kaul) Date: Sat, 18 Apr 2009 06:07:42 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Reader-list] Shameful Torture of 23 Muslims Prisoners on March 26-27 In Sabarmati Jail, Ahamedabad: A Report by Human Rights Activists In-Reply-To: <1f9180970904180521x3453d13byd40ef733b81b3185@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <777321.58621.qm@web57203.mail.re3.yahoo.com> Dear Venugopalan   Thanks for the acknowledgement and gracious clarification.   Gujarat is not the only State where the "human rights of religious minorities and weaker sections are not honoured". But Gujarat certainly has been focussed upon due to various happenings we are all familiar with. It is only to be expected and there is nothing "Anti-National" about that.   One hopes that any such incident in any State (whether in measures less than or more than in Gujarat) is highlighted and the guilty are punished. It would be a ridiculous argument that one should not talk about Gujarat unless one talks about every other State simultaneously. This cannot be a Zero-Sum game.    More than anyone else, those who subscribe to Hindutvaism should be most disturbed by any such happenings in Gujarat. Instead of Modi's rule in Gujarat setting an inspirational example of "Hindutva based governance", it has been furnishing enough examples of horrific mis-governance that confirm the worst fears about Hindutvaism for anyone who loves India and is truly a nationalist.   A criminal commits a crime of a certain magnitude and so is called a criminal and is penalised in accordance with the magnitude of the crime committed.    My personal belief is when those in whom the people have vested Power and Authority commit crimes that are an abuse of the Power and Authority vested in them, the magnitude of their crime should be judged as being exponentially more serious and should receive exponentially larger penalties. Such crimes are the "Greater Evil".   Kshmendra       --- On Sat, 4/18/09, Venugopalan K M wrote: From: Venugopalan K M Subject: Re: [Reader-list] Shameful Torture of 23 Muslims Prisoners on March 26-27 In Sabarmati Jail, Ahamedabad: A Report by Human Rights Activists To: "sarai-list" Date: Saturday, April 18, 2009, 5:51 PM Dear Rakesh , Kshmendra and others in the list, I am much obliged to you for pointing out the factual errors there in my post. I apologize for the error in the subject line that refers to the number of prisoners tortured as 23, whereas actually it is 22 as shown in the text. Secondly, I wish to acknowledge that I ought not have failed to note the difference between 'all' and 'most'. (Those were not intentional, and happened in some hurry to share my concern with readers here ) The object of the post was highlighting the fact that the jail authorities in the Sabarnati jail illtreated the prisoners, mostly Muslims and they were defying at least many of those jail norms associated with respect to the statutory obligation of the state vis a vis its prisoners. Let me quote from the preliminary findings of the citizen's report, as I think it must fit well in the context of many debates taking place here, particularly so because many of us here had been debating about the importance of Rule of Law despite our divergent political persuations: " Regrettably, the incident reinforces the image of Gujarat as a state where the human rights of religious minorities and weaker sections are not honoured" Yes, thus I too am concerned about this reinforced image,which is unfortunately sought to be denied repeatedly by at least some people here, dismissing it as the result of expressions of 'pseudo secularism' or anti-national propaganda ! I wish I could help it. Thanks, Venu. On Sat, Apr 18, 2009 at 3:43 PM, Kshmendra Kaul wrote: > Dear Venugopalan > > Any mistreatment of prisoners in a jail is reprehensible. > > However, do you think it was proper of you to give the Subject Line that you > have given for this report? > > The report expresses concern at the government (mis)handling of the beating > up of 22 (not 23) jail inmates. It describes them as "most of them Muslim" > > "Most of them Muslim" and not "All of them Muslim" as is rather > unfortunately suggested by your Subject Line which gives quite a different > sense. > > > Kshmendra > > --- On Fri, 4/17/09, Venugopalan K M wrote: > > From: Venugopalan K M > Subject: [Reader-list] Shameful Torture of 23 Muslims Prisoners on March > 26-27 In Sabarmati Jail, Ahamedabad: A Report by Human Rights Activists > To: "sarai-list" > Date: Friday, April 17, 2009, 3:17 PM > > Dear Sir/Madam, > Prelimanary Report of INDEPENDENT COMMITTEE ON INCIDENTS OF 26-27th MARCH > 2009 IN SABARMATI JAIL, > AHMEDABAD. > *INDEPENDENT COMMITTEE ON INCIDENTS OF 26-27th MARCH 2009 IN SABARMATI JAIL, > AHMEDABAD, GUJARAT* > CAMP: People’s Union for Civil Liberties c/o Gandhi peace Foundation, > Himavan, Paldi Char Rasta, Ahmadabad 380006 > *PRESS NOTE* > *AHMEDABAD, April 16, 2009* > * * > * * > An Independent committee of senior national human rights activists has > expressed its deep concern at the government handling of the beating up of > 22 inmates of the Sabarmati Jail on 25 March 2009, and has called for a full > enquiry, preferably a judicial one by a judge of the High Court, into gross > violations of the Jail manual and human rights norms established by the > Courts and the NHRC. Regrettably, the incident reinforces the image of > Gujarat as a state where the human rights of religious minorities and weaker > sections are not honoured. > Inmates, most of them Muslim, who were on a hunger strike, were denied > medical attention after a brutal attack on them by jail staff, which left at > least three of them unconscious for so long as to start rumours in the city > that they had died. They were subsequently denied access to counsel, their > relatives were refused permission to meet them for three days, and then the > Sabarmati Police station failed to register an FIR as sought by relatives > and counsel of the victims. > The independent committee consisted of Dr. John Dayal, Member, National > Integration Council, Govt. of India, Adv. K. Kesavan, Joint Secretary, CPCL, > Tamil Nadu, Dr. J. S. Bandukwala, President, PUCL, Gujarat, Dr. S. Q. R. > Ilyas, Editor, Afkar-e-Milli, New Delhi, Mr. Gopal Menon, Film Maker, > Bangalore, Mr. Mahtab Alam,Coordinator, Association for the Protection of > Civil Rights (APCR), New Delhi, Ms. Harini Krishna, Film Maker, Mumbai, and > Ms. Ruchi Shroff, Civil Rights Activist, Mumbai, Mr. Gautam Thakar, > Secretary, Secretary, PUCL, Gujarat was in Ahmadabad from 15th to > 16thApril 09. > At a public hearing, the Committee heard statements from mothers, wives and > sisters of the jail inmates who gave detailed narrative of the events in the > jail as they had heard from the inmates when they were finally allowed to > meet them. The women presented blood stained clothes of the inmates. Counsel > gave the committee copies of the PIL filed in the Gujarat High Court, the > medical report filed by two lawyers who had met the inmates in jail, as also > correspondence with the jail and police authorities seeking justice and > medical care for the injured. > The committee made several efforts to approach the authorities. The > committee in fact went to the Sabarmati jail and met Superintendent > Chandrashekhar who refused permission to visit the concerned ward and meet > the inmates. Inspector general of police Mr. Keshav Kumar, despite a written > request followed up by repeated visits to his office and a telephone > conversation with him would not find time for the committee. The visit to > the Sabarmati Police station was an eye-opener where ACP Vaghela, SHO Joshi > and Inspector Parmar all but justified the violence against the inmates > saying they were criminals accused in Bomb blasts, and had indulged in > violence in the Jail. The three officers admitted an FIR had been registered > at the behest of the Jail authorities. They denied they had even received > complaints from the families of the victims in this case. > The investigating committee does not comment on the cases in which these 22 > persons are in jail, or even on several other events that have taken place > in the Sabarmati jail in recent weeks which go to show that all is not right > with its administration. But it is clear from the testimony of the relatives > of the victims and the admission of the police officers that the chain of > events has been triggered off with the coming of the new Jail Superintendent > who stopped long standing practices of taking ill and injured inmates to the > civil hospital, provision of highly specialized medicine and curtailed other > rights. It was in response to this that the prisoners went on a highly > publicized hunger strike. > The committee will submit a detailed report in a couple of weeks. But it is > important to record its preliminary findings and recommendations. > *Initial observation of the team * > * * > 1. *Beating of the Jail inmates are admitted in an affidavit filed by > Jail authority.* > 2. *Draconian jail manual laid down by the British is followed till date, > even though parts of it are contradictory to our Constitution.* > 3. *Advocates and relatives of the inmates were not allowed to meet for a > long time, which is a serious violation of Prisoners’ Rights.* > 4. *No FIR of the relatives has been registered till date.* > 5. *Inspire of 22 prisoners suffering injuries, some of them being > fractures, they were treated within the jail as our patients correctly, > they > should have been admitted to civil hospital. * > * * > *We demand that-* > * * > 1. *National Human Rights Commission should intervene on the issue and > report to the Supreme Court.* > 2. *Proper medical help should be given by the civil hospital. * > 3. *PUCL Gujarat and Human Rights groups should be allowed to meet and > gather first hand information. * > * * > * * > Sd/- > Dr John Dayal- 09811021072 > Prof J S Badukwala > Dr SQR Ilyas > Mr. Gautam Thakar, Secretary, PUCL, Gujarat-09825382556 > Released to the media for publication. > regards, > Mahtab > MD. MAHTAB ALAM > mdmahtaba... at gmail.com > Phone:+ 91-9811209345 > -- > MD. MAHTAB ALAM > mdmahtaba... at gmail.com > Phone:+ 91-9811209345 > Press Note ahmedabad 16 april 09.doc > 41K View Download > -- > http://venukm.blogspot.com/ > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with subscribe > in > the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> > -- http://venukm.blogspot.com/ From kshmendra2005 at yahoo.com Sat Apr 18 19:54:34 2009 From: kshmendra2005 at yahoo.com (Kshmendra Kaul) Date: Sat, 18 Apr 2009 07:24:34 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Reader-list] Muslims in Ramadhan & 51 Shakti Peeths In-Reply-To: <634056.36743.qm@web53609.mail.re2.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <389589.61230.qm@web57208.mail.re3.yahoo.com> Dear Rahul   As one fascinated by the Shakta precepts, any geographical limiting  of Shakti does not appeal to me. Hence the questioning. I find it easier to dismiss any such treatise (only 51 Shakti Peeths) as the limitation of professor who claims to know.   But, who knows. I do not.   Since, simultaneously the non-duality of the Divine appeals to me, it has to be for me a Universal domain (both the known to us and the unknown universes). The non-duality for me is not gender-defined but range of potentialities where 'female' and the 'male', the (+) and the (-), the "positive" and the "negative" are not moral values but one incomplete without the other.    Frankly, I have absolutely no idea what I am trying to say.   Kshmendra      --- On Fri, 4/17/09, Rahul Asthana wrote: From: Rahul Asthana Subject: Re: [Reader-list] Muslims in Ramadhan & 51 Shakti Peeths To: "sarai list" , kshmendra2005 at yahoo.com Date: Friday, April 17, 2009, 7:40 PM Dear Kshamendra, That's a very thought provoking post. As we can expect,there are no simplistic conclusions to be drawn from this.This does not put forward any doctrinal argument in favor of, or against, Hinduism being a geographically underpinned system.Then again,since there is noting definitively doctrinal in Hinduism so that's neither here nor there.The case can probably be made that there is a significant momentum in space-time and in the "collective unconscious" to pin it with the Indian sub-continent. Thanks Rahul --- On Thu, 4/16/09, Kshmendra Kaul wrote: > From: Kshmendra Kaul > Subject: [Reader-list] Muslims in Ramadhan & 51 Shakti Peeths > To: "sarai list" > Date: Thursday, April 16, 2009, 7:57 PM > When the question was put as to how Muslims were supposed > to start and break their fast in Ramadhan in places like the > Land(s) of the Midnight Sun, the tongue in cheek answer was > that Muslims were not meant to live there.  >   > Similarly, the parts of Sati's body that were cut up by > Vishnu are reported as having been scattered over what is > predominantly the Indian sub-continent, landing at what are > recognised as 51 or 64 Shakti Peeths. >   > Is that all the strength Vishnu had in his arms that > the slingshots of the cut up body pieces landed in such a > small area (compared to the total size of the Earth)? Maybe > Hindus (or at least devotees of Shakti or at the very very > least the devotees of Sati) were not meant to live all over > the world. >   > Just thinking aloud >   > Kshmendra   > > > > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to > reader-list-request at sarai.net with subscribe in the subject > header. > To unsubscribe: > https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: > <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> From kauladityaraj at gmail.com Sat Apr 18 20:01:50 2009 From: kauladityaraj at gmail.com (Aditya Raj Kaul) Date: Sat, 18 Apr 2009 20:01:50 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Irfan Habib's appeal to vote for the Left In-Reply-To: References: <98f331e00904180101x6446345y15dbf67a38d745b4@mail.gmail.com> <6b79f1a70904180205w43d59e9dv73d9f63eb655c9a4@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <6353c690904180731n1fe1b367rfb3322f5391d97d3@mail.gmail.com> I hope the moderator takes notice; since it seems Prakash ji has gone to the extent of saying that nobody can stop him from posting this. regards On Sat, Apr 18, 2009 at 2:56 PM, Rakesh Iyer wrote: > Dear all > > Prakash jee, please stop posting such mails of anyone asking to vote for > anybody. This is not a forum for campaigning. > > And Pawan jee, your concern is right. Equally you should have accepted that > you too did a wrong thing, if you point out the same mistake as yours for > the moderator to take note of. > > And for the group moderator, please don't allow such messages to come in. > This is not a forum for electioneering, but one for discussion. I have no > issues with discussing BJP manifestos or Left manifesto as well (and I > believe others too don't have issues), but please don't allow such > electioneering messages to be posted. > > Regards > > Rakesh > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > subscribe in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> > -- Aditya Raj Kaul From rakesh.rnbdj at gmail.com Sat Apr 18 22:01:29 2009 From: rakesh.rnbdj at gmail.com (Rakesh Iyer) Date: Sat, 18 Apr 2009 22:01:29 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Shameful Torture of 23 Muslims Prisoners on March 26-27 In Sabarmati Jail, Ahamedabad: A Report by Human Rights Activists In-Reply-To: <777321.58621.qm@web57203.mail.re3.yahoo.com> References: <1f9180970904180521x3453d13byd40ef733b81b3185@mail.gmail.com> <777321.58621.qm@web57203.mail.re3.yahoo.com> Message-ID: Dear Kshamendra If you want to rate the Modi government on the conceptions of 'Hindutva based governance', it would be better to first know these statements from M.S.Golwalkar about his ideas of what India should be (A Hindu Rashtra indeed) : >From the link: http://www.countercurrents.org/comm-guha281106.htm 1) His ideas are summarised in the book Bunch of Thoughts, which draws upon the lectures he delivered over the years (mostly in Hindi) to RSS shakhas across the country. This identifies the Hindus, and they alone, as the privileged community of India. It disparages democracy as alien to the Hindu ethos and extols the code of Manu, whom Golwalkar salutes as "the first, the greatest, and the wisest lawgiver of mankind". 2) Golwalkar writes that the "hostile elements within the country pose a far greater menace to national security than aggressors from outside". He identifies three major "Internal Threats: I: The Muslims; II: The Christians; III: The Communists". A long chapter impugns the patriotism of these groups, speaking darkly of their "future aggressive designs on our country". 3) Thus, on December 6, 1947, Golwalkar convened a meeting of RSS workers in the town of Govardhan, not far from Delhi. The police report on this meeting says it discussed how to "assassinate the leading persons of the Congress in order to terrorise the public and to get their hold over them". 4) Two days later, Golwalkar addressed a crowd of several thousand volunteers at the Rohtak Road Camp in Delhi. The police reporter in attendance wrote that the RSS leader said that "the Sangh will not rest content until it had finished Pakistan. If anyone stood in our way we will have to finish them too, whether it was Nehru Government or any other Government... " Referring to Muslims, he said that no power on earth could keep them in Hindustan. They should have to quit this country... "If they were made to stay here the responsibility would be the Government's and the Hindu community would not be responsible. Mahatma Gandhi could not mislead them any longer. We have the means whereby [our] opponents could be immediately silenced". 5) Golwalkar himself argued that "in this land Hindus have been the owners, Parsis and Jews the guests, and Muslims and Christians the dacoits". He asked, maliciously: "Then do all these have the same right over the country?" 6) The RSS leader, noted Karaka, "thinks in terms of Hindu India and only Hindu India". >From the link: http://www.sacw.net/DC/CommunalismCollection/ArticlesArchive/Puniyani6March06.html 1)Golwalkar goes on to assert,"From the standpoint sanctioned by the experience of shrewd nations, the non-Hindu people in Hindustan must either adopt the Hindu culture and language, must learn to respect and revere Hindu religion, must entertain no idea but the glorification of Hindu nation i.e. they must not only give up their attitude of intolerance and ingratitude towards this land and its age long traditions, but must also cultivate the positive attitude of love and devotion instead; in one word, they must cease to be foreigners or may stay in the country wholly subordinated to the Hindu nation, claiming nothing, deserving no privileges, for less any preferential treatment, not even the citizen's rights." (Ibid p.52). Going by account on all this, the Gujarat government has actually done quite well. It has certainly decimated Christians and Muslims, and ensured they have to live in constant fear and certainly as second-class citizens of the country. Hindutva-based governance is pure nonsense. The very word Hindutva was coined first by Savarkar, an atheist. And we who believe in idol-worship now are talking about it. This is totally ridiculous as Savarkar was against any form of idol worship himself. So also is Hindutva devoid of idol worship. Hindutva is a threat to India and its conception. Therefore, it should be banned totally from India. Regards Rakesh From indersalim at gmail.com Sat Apr 18 22:03:02 2009 From: indersalim at gmail.com (Inder Salim) Date: Sat, 18 Apr 2009 22:03:02 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Can't we shut Reader-List temporarily until polls are over In-Reply-To: <414325.70578.qm@web51408.mail.re2.yahoo.com> References: <414325.70578.qm@web51408.mail.re2.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <47e122a70904180933k301d1790l3974ef738d7c9d9b@mail.gmail.com> Dear strange, that we are afraid, scared, and willing to shut even, completely, and transform into a blank page, even..... it is not the political opinion which is disturbing, but the shallow approach to the convictions of some of the concerned participants, elections or no elections , these couple of guys will always do what they feel is the most urgent, these guys will always ignore the importance of language and style of communicating, for them to hurl the core content like a stone at the other is very effective tool to score a point. but alas , that is not so, in the long run, we are left alone, and we have to finally talk to ourselves, anger and violence is not finally enriching our understanding of who we are, and what we want to become. i guess, there is always a room for improvement and dont we have our own animal like political system behaving like that, sadly so cool with love and regards is On Sat, Apr 18, 2009 at 1:51 PM, Yousuf wrote: > > > > > > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with subscribe in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: -- http://indersalim.livejournal.com From c.anupam at gmail.com Sat Apr 18 22:15:18 2009 From: c.anupam at gmail.com (anupam chakravartty) Date: Sat, 18 Apr 2009 22:15:18 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Shameful Torture of 23 Muslims Prisoners on March 26-27 In Sabarmati Jail, Ahamedabad: A Report by Human Rights Activists In-Reply-To: References: <1f9180970904180521x3453d13byd40ef733b81b3185@mail.gmail.com> <777321.58621.qm@web57203.mail.re3.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <341380d00904180945i58bb150dh58dc8aae21a9339f@mail.gmail.com> I second your opinions Rakesh. there must be a consensus on this. Hindutva is against democracy. those who are saying that they are expressing their thoughts defending this menace in the name of exercising their democratic right are cheating people. RSS sponsored hindutva like other forms of violent religious extremism can only destroy democracy. everyone must speak up NOW! On 4/18/09, Rakesh Iyer wrote: > > Dear Kshamendra > > If you want to rate the Modi government on the conceptions of 'Hindutva > based governance', it would be better to first know these statements from > M.S.Golwalkar about his ideas of what India should be (A Hindu Rashtra > indeed) : > > From the link: http://www.countercurrents.org/comm-guha281106.htm > > 1) His ideas are summarised in the book Bunch of Thoughts, which draws upon > the lectures he delivered over the years (mostly in Hindi) to RSS shakhas > across the country. This identifies the Hindus, and they alone, as the > privileged community of India. It disparages democracy as alien to the > Hindu > ethos and extols the code of Manu, whom Golwalkar salutes as "the first, > the > greatest, and the wisest lawgiver of mankind". > > 2) Golwalkar writes that the "hostile elements within the country pose a > far > greater menace to national security than aggressors from outside". He > identifies three major "Internal Threats: I: The Muslims; II: The > Christians; III: The Communists". A long chapter impugns the patriotism of > these groups, speaking darkly of their "future aggressive designs on our > country". > > 3) Thus, on December 6, 1947, Golwalkar convened a meeting of RSS workers > in > the town of Govardhan, not far from Delhi. The police report on this > meeting > says it discussed how to "assassinate the leading persons of the Congress > in > order to terrorise the public and to get their hold over them". > > 4) Two days later, Golwalkar addressed a crowd of several thousand > volunteers at the Rohtak Road Camp in Delhi. The police reporter in > attendance wrote that the RSS leader said that "the Sangh will not rest > content until it had finished Pakistan. If anyone stood in our way we will > have to finish them too, whether it was Nehru Government or any other > Government... " Referring to Muslims, he said that no power on earth could > keep them in Hindustan. They should have to quit this country... "If they > were made to stay here the responsibility would be the Government's and the > Hindu community would not be responsible. Mahatma Gandhi could not mislead > them any longer. We have the means whereby [our] opponents could be > immediately silenced". > > 5) Golwalkar himself argued that "in this land Hindus have been the owners, > Parsis and Jews the guests, and Muslims and Christians the dacoits". He > asked, maliciously: "Then do all these have the same right over the > country?" > > 6) The RSS leader, noted Karaka, "thinks in terms of Hindu India and only > Hindu India". > > From the link: > > > http://www.sacw.net/DC/CommunalismCollection/ArticlesArchive/Puniyani6March06.html > > 1)Golwalkar goes on to assert,"From the standpoint sanctioned by the > experience of shrewd nations, the non-Hindu people in Hindustan must either > adopt the Hindu culture and language, must learn to respect and revere > Hindu > religion, must entertain no idea but the glorification of Hindu nation i.e. > they must not only give up their attitude of intolerance and ingratitude > towards this land and its age long traditions, but must also cultivate the > positive attitude of love and devotion instead; in one word, they must > cease > to be foreigners or may stay in the country wholly subordinated to the > Hindu > nation, claiming nothing, deserving no privileges, for less any > preferential > treatment, not even the citizen's rights." (Ibid p.52). > > Going by account on all this, the Gujarat government has actually done > quite > well. It has certainly decimated Christians and Muslims, and ensured they > have to live in constant fear and certainly as second-class citizens of the > country. > > Hindutva-based governance is pure nonsense. The very word Hindutva was > coined first by Savarkar, an atheist. And we who believe in idol-worship > now > are talking about it. This is totally ridiculous as Savarkar was against > any > form of idol worship himself. So also is Hindutva devoid of idol worship. > > Hindutva is a threat to India and its conception. Therefore, it should be > banned totally from India. > > Regards > > Rakesh > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > subscribe in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> From sen.jhuma at gmail.com Sat Apr 18 22:32:58 2009 From: sen.jhuma at gmail.com (Jhuma Sen) Date: Sat, 18 Apr 2009 22:32:58 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Guj govt's, not an SIT report Message-ID: <85a3156a0904181002i7fa2e6p2e67c4e445bdaf2d@mail.gmail.com> I remember stumbling upon some interesting Teesta/NGO bashing in the Reader List a few days ago based on a prima facie ridiculous TOI report. An explanation at last. http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/India/Guj-govts-not-an-SIT-report/articleshow/4407434.cms I find TOI's stand extremely amusing. This may serve as a panacea to many who prefer to live in a state of denial (wishful thinking). Regards Jhuma From indersalim at gmail.com Sat Apr 18 22:58:48 2009 From: indersalim at gmail.com (Inder Salim) Date: Sat, 18 Apr 2009 22:58:48 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Shameful Torture of 23 Muslims Prisoners on March 26-27 In Sabarmati Jail, Ahamedabad: A Report by Human Rights Activists In-Reply-To: <341380d00904180945i58bb150dh58dc8aae21a9339f@mail.gmail.com> References: <1f9180970904180521x3453d13byd40ef733b81b3185@mail.gmail.com> <777321.58621.qm@web57203.mail.re3.yahoo.com> <341380d00904180945i58bb150dh58dc8aae21a9339f@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <47e122a70904181028w493c617ey99ad535195948290@mail.gmail.com> Dear Anupam, dear all, it is not only Hindutva, which is dangerous for the growth of democracy, but all the right wing politics, not only the right wing, but any kind of authoritarian politics, not only authoritarian politics but anything that under values the basic human rights, which includes the core existential drives of life. Humanity has suffered terribly as and when sensibilities of 'the other' were compelled to experience oppression of this kind or that kind. we are suspicious of the other's activities, and we fear that our beings will be wiped out, if we dont take adequate measures in time. This has its own history. The people at the helm of affairs have always encouraged some paranoia in the minds of the masses for the preparation of a just war. It goes without saying that most of wars in the past and the present were causeless, or trivial at the most. I still give them ( the ancient/medieval) some marks for their reasons for waging wars on other territories, but in the present, when we have democracies, there is hardly any reason for a war. People in America never voted for a war in Iraq, or Vietnam etc. but the the system that breeds the possibility of war (s) in future are very much there. So the Nation States that emerge while enabling their people to celebrate the concept of democracy are suspect. Either there is something wrong with the procedures of implementing results of voting by masses, or the very concept of Nation State is obsolete, but refuses to give in to newer form of freedom of life. This i am saying, because, in essence, democracy is all about people, and if people dont understand the real purpose of democracy then there is a paradox. i guess, we can not extract a true meaning from the word ' democracy' if we dont feel why the concept emerged as a departure from the system that Kings or Monarchies or even Military dictators, or communist czars used to govern the people through a set of Laws. the present system of domocracy is again pushing forwards, the rule of the feudal lord, the criminal in disguise, or the inheritor of dynasty so where are those systems of democracy which were truly supposed to bring a representative politics for a just governance. What happens to our freedom of expression once our elected government comes to power, why they bring the same old reasons to install the same old traditional censorships which was the norm in the past, but has no justification for any continuity... having said all this, one has still reason to celebrate the present system of democracy, as lesser evil in comparison to earlier systems of foreign rule or Dictatorship. with love and regards is On Sat, Apr 18, 2009 at 10:15 PM, anupam chakravartty wrote: > I second your opinions Rakesh. there must be a consensus on this. Hindutva > is against democracy. those who are saying that they are expressing their > thoughts defending this menace in the name of exercising their democratic > right are cheating people. RSS sponsored hindutva like other forms of > violent religious extremism can only destroy democracy. everyone must speak > up NOW! > > On 4/18/09, Rakesh Iyer wrote: >> >> Dear Kshamendra >> >> If you want to rate the Modi government on the conceptions of 'Hindutva >> based governance', it would be better to first know these statements from >> M.S.Golwalkar about his ideas of what India should be (A Hindu Rashtra >> indeed) : >> >> From the link: http://www.countercurrents.org/comm-guha281106.htm >> >> 1) His ideas are summarised in the book Bunch of Thoughts, which draws upon >> the lectures he delivered over the years (mostly in Hindi) to RSS shakhas >> across the country. This identifies the Hindus, and they alone, as the >> privileged community of India. It disparages democracy as alien to the >> Hindu >> ethos and extols the code of Manu, whom Golwalkar salutes as "the first, >> the >> greatest, and the wisest lawgiver of mankind". >> >> 2) Golwalkar writes that the "hostile elements within the country pose a >> far >> greater menace to national security than aggressors from outside". He >> identifies three major "Internal Threats: I: The Muslims; II: The >> Christians; III: The Communists". A long chapter impugns the patriotism of >> these groups, speaking darkly of their "future aggressive designs on our >> country". >> >> 3) Thus, on December 6, 1947, Golwalkar convened a meeting of RSS workers >> in >> the town of Govardhan, not far from Delhi. The police report on this >> meeting >> says it discussed how to "assassinate the leading persons of the Congress >> in >> order to terrorise the public and to get their hold over them". >> >> 4) Two days later, Golwalkar addressed a crowd of several thousand >> volunteers at the Rohtak Road Camp in Delhi. The police reporter in >> attendance wrote that the RSS leader said that "the Sangh will not rest >> content until it had finished Pakistan. If anyone stood in our way we will >> have to finish them too, whether it was Nehru Government or any other >> Government... " Referring to Muslims, he said that no power on earth could >> keep them in Hindustan. They should have to quit this country... "If they >> were made to stay here the responsibility would be the Government's and the >> Hindu community would not be responsible. Mahatma Gandhi could not mislead >> them any longer. We have the means whereby [our] opponents could be >> immediately silenced". >> >> 5) Golwalkar himself argued that "in this land Hindus have been the owners, >> Parsis and Jews the guests, and Muslims and Christians the dacoits". He >> asked, maliciously: "Then do all these have the same right over the >> country?" >> >> 6) The RSS leader, noted Karaka, "thinks in terms of Hindu India and only >> Hindu India". >> >> From the link: >> >> >> http://www.sacw.net/DC/CommunalismCollection/ArticlesArchive/Puniyani6March06.html >> >> 1)Golwalkar goes on to assert,"From the standpoint sanctioned by the >> experience of shrewd nations, the non-Hindu people in Hindustan must either >> adopt the Hindu culture and language, must learn to respect and revere >> Hindu >> religion, must entertain no idea but the glorification of Hindu nation i.e. >> they must not only give up their attitude of intolerance and ingratitude >> towards this land and its age long traditions, but must also cultivate the >> positive attitude of love and devotion instead; in one word, they must >> cease >> to be foreigners or may stay in the country wholly subordinated to the >> Hindu >> nation, claiming nothing, deserving no privileges, for less any >> preferential >> treatment, not even the citizen's rights." (Ibid p.52). >> >> Going by account on all this, the Gujarat government has actually done >> quite >> well. It has certainly decimated Christians and Muslims, and ensured they >> have to live in constant fear and certainly as second-class citizens of the >> country. >> >> Hindutva-based governance is pure nonsense. The very word Hindutva was >> coined first by Savarkar, an atheist. And we who believe in idol-worship >> now >> are talking about it. This is totally ridiculous as Savarkar was against >> any >> form of idol worship himself. So also is Hindutva devoid of idol worship. >> >> Hindutva is a threat to India and its conception. Therefore, it should be >> banned totally from India. >> >> Regards >> >> Rakesh >> _________________________________________ >> reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. >> Critiques & Collaborations >> To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with >> subscribe in the subject header. >> To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list >> List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with subscribe in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> -- http://indersalim.livejournal.com From rakesh.rnbdj at gmail.com Sat Apr 18 23:03:22 2009 From: rakesh.rnbdj at gmail.com (Rakesh Iyer) Date: Sat, 18 Apr 2009 23:03:22 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Guj govt's, not an SIT report In-Reply-To: <85a3156a0904181002i7fa2e6p2e67c4e445bdaf2d@mail.gmail.com> References: <85a3156a0904181002i7fa2e6p2e67c4e445bdaf2d@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: Dear Jhuma jee Thanks for posting this link. @ All Instead of considering Teesta Satalvad as a problem, it would be better to consider the unavailability of justice as a problem. The way Narendra Modi and BJP along with their supporters would like us to view this entire scene, it is as if nothing has happened and all the talk of violence and rapes are a pack of lies. So according to them probably, the Muslims who suffered are lying. The so-called 'sickular' organizations (using Pawan jee's words here, for secular) are also lying. The NHRC is also lying, and so it can be dubbed anti-Hindu. James Miachel Lyngdoh, the then Election Commissioner is also lying when he says the displaced Muslims and also the large number of disappered Muslims combined with poor law and order situation means elections should be postponed. The English media is also lying. The people who suffered in the violence are also lying. Only Narendra Modi and his supporters are speaking the truth. Infact, Modi made this statement with respect to the post-Godhra incidents: ' Only 100 died in such incidents and that too in police firing.' Before that , he claimed there were no violent incidents. If there were no violent incidents, what was the need to undertake police firing at all? Or was there a competition among police to decide who can kill more Muslims? This bigotry and false propaganda of lies has to stop somewhere. The first step was when the SC dubbed the Modi government as 'modern day Neros' who watched as Gujarat burned. And I hope the SIT report draws the final nail in the coffin for the Modi govt for its inaction as they didn't do anything to stop violence. Infact, till now they have not even been able to conclusively find out and prove what happened in Godhra. So much talk for avenging insult to Hindus. Regards Rakesh From rakesh.rnbdj at gmail.com Sat Apr 18 23:12:27 2009 From: rakesh.rnbdj at gmail.com (Rakesh Iyer) Date: Sat, 18 Apr 2009 23:12:27 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Shameful Torture of 23 Muslims Prisoners on March 26-27 In Sabarmati Jail, Ahamedabad: A Report by Human Rights Activists In-Reply-To: <47e122a70904181028w493c617ey99ad535195948290@mail.gmail.com> References: <1f9180970904180521x3453d13byd40ef733b81b3185@mail.gmail.com> <777321.58621.qm@web57203.mail.re3.yahoo.com> <341380d00904180945i58bb150dh58dc8aae21a9339f@mail.gmail.com> <47e122a70904181028w493c617ey99ad535195948290@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: Dear Inder jee The question you have raised is that democratic states can also resort to war. My contention is that this is due to lack of democracy actually. If there really was democracy, before going to war, the govt. would have conducted the referendum to find out whether people wanted the war to take place or not. Of course, we could have debated the moral consequences of what the people chose and what they didn't, but it would certainly ensure that democracy prevails in taking decisions. But govts. the world over don't want to give this right to people as for them, their contract agreement goes under threat. In many nations across the world, elections are a kind of contract given by people to let someone rule for a period of 5 years, during which the person given the contract feels he/she can take any decision as they please. And this is what has ruined democracy. Therefore, it's not democracy, but the lack of it, which ensures such situations. As for the BJP, I really pity them. So also the right wing people. They constantly have a tendency to prove that they are masculine or Hindu religion(and Hindus) must be masculine, so also for authoritarians. Probably they have some complex regarding that they are not masculine enough. They have my sympathies for being pessimistic about themselves. And what's more, they have an attitude of dismissiveness and arrogance as well (at least their major leaders show these tendencies). Forget ideology, they probably would have this tendency in public life as well even on personal relations. I don't know they can actually create a stronger state, which is their professed goal (not exactly mine). After all, as I have said earlier, unity is strength. Hence, even on the goal of making India a superpower, the RSS led parivar is going to lead to the opposite of their own professed goal. Regards Rakesh From 2tahamehmood at googlemail.com Sat Apr 18 23:17:52 2009 From: 2tahamehmood at googlemail.com (Taha Mehmood) Date: Sat, 18 Apr 2009 18:47:52 +0100 Subject: [Reader-list] Are MNIC and General Elections new business opportunities for the suspicion industry? Message-ID: <65be9bf40904181047j1c3b2a7arde2341d04b03e1e3@mail.gmail.com> Dear All, With the ongoing discourse around MNIC we are witnessing a slow but steady cementing of the process of a confusing and an incongruous idea of individual identity. One of the offshoots of the identity process is -suspicion-. Possibly in the near future the Indian Government would like us to believe that all those who posses the Identity token (MNIC) are Indian citizens. But like, as had happened earlier, this discourse may have twin characteristics- fake and original. Therefore not only the people in power, functionaries of various state institutions who are supposed to validate our citizenship token will have work on their hands, i.e. to see to it that a token is in fact, genuine, but also those who are in the business of making copies may attempt to produce genuine lookalikes. In such a situation any verbal claim, such as, I -am -who -I -say- I- am will be first viewed with an internalized form of suspicion, only to be okayed if substituted and abstracted to this token. Suspicion plays an important role in this form identity game. In this regard, I want to cite some similarities between the process of selling the idea of MNIC and the ongoing election process. Perhaps with the ongoing election process we are witnessing a very slow but a dangerous trend- institutionalized erosion of trust leading to an institutionalized sedimentation of suspicion. While the mass media is busy portraying the ongoing election process in a celebratory manner, as 'Indian Political League' or 'Dance of Democracy' or 'a Billion votes' and so on, at the core of this process, at the level of political parties or more narrower still, at the level of party head quarters, we are witnessing signs of institutional change. Unfortunately, it seems, this is a change for the worse. People who are running these political parties are becoming mistrustful of their colleagues. This is bound to happen in the absence of an ideology driving these organizations. We have former Sanghis fighting on Congress ticket, from Congressmen fighting on BJP ticket and so on. This mistrust, it seems, has opened a new market. Almost 18000 registered private detectives of India are hoping get employment this election season. Many of these so called expert intelligence gatherers are employed by political organizations of all hues to snoop, on not only the opponents but also members of the same organization. The price per operation, according to the story below, is 4,00,000 Rupees. On the face of it, even these two strands, MINC and current election process, which I have tried to mix, seem distant and un-connected but I think, if we allow ourselves to observe these phenomena through a conceptual of framework of -trust and suspicion- we may see some similarity. With warm regards Taha http://www.outlookindia.com/full.asp?fodname=20090427&fname=Private+Detectives+(F)&sid=1&pn=1 ELECTIONS: PRIVATE DETECTIVES The Moles Behind The Dais Political parties have hired sleuths to watch rivals and check dissidence. An investigators' association has even offered help to the EC. ...... Anuradha Raman Cloak & Ballot * Elections 2009 will see a record number of private detectives keeping tabs on politicians. They say almost all national parties have hired sleuths. * Close to 400 of them are former police, intelligence or army personnel * Hired by political parties, they will be keeping a watch on both rival parties and dissidence within * The Private Detectives Association has written to the EC offering their expertise to monitor political activity * The detectives claim a 98 per cent success rate in the course of their investigation *** This election, the air has been thick with CDs and tapes containing hate speeches and remarks that could be called salacious. "We have the expertise and the equipment and can help the EC ensure free and fair elections." —Kunwar Vikram Singh Remember the Varun Gandhi CDs, or the Mulayam tapes, or Rabri Devi's innuendo-laden outburst? The Election Commission, according to sources, has in its possession, not one but a couple of CDs sent to it by "credible" but "unnamed sources." Well, who are these unnamed sources? They are 18,000 private detectives (they prefer the term intelligence gatherers) across the country, who are monitoring netas and sending feedback to the Election Commission whenever someone crosses the line. And who has hired them? Political parties—in order to catch rivals and also snoop for any dissidence within their own ranks. Now these unnamed men are seeking some legitimacy. So the Association of Private Detectives of India, to which they belong, has dashed off a letter to the Election Commission offering its services to keep a watch on potential violators of the model code of conduct. In the letter, association head Kunwar Vikram Singh, a former army/intelligence official, says, "We have the expertise and the equipment to track down the movements of candidates, which can help the commission ensure a fair election." The commission has not replied, but the association members live in hope. The association, which is recognised by the Union home ministry, has several top retired officers from the intelligence and the investigation communities, including a former CBI director. Meanwhile, political parties have enlisted the help of the detectives to keep watch on the opposition and malcontents or mischief-makers within their own ranks. According to Singh, the presence "It is good if sleuths work for political parties. I think this will help clean up public life." —Joginder Singh of detectives quietly gathering political intelligence is likely to have a sobering effect on partymen. "Our services have been sought by all major political parties to keep a watch on their own men and track their movements," he says. This is chiefly because political parties now have election managers, who like to assess workers' morale. The rationale? Given the deeply suspicious nature of politicians, nothing can be left to chance till the last day. In fact, some of the detectives were of the view that as the number of dissidents and their activities increase, the leadership becomes concerned about their ability to wreak havoc within the party and likes to keep a tab on them. "It is generally the very senior politician who has been denied a ticket, or whose son or daughter hasn't been given ticket who is seen as a spoilsport," says Singh. Senior politicians usually have a committed constituency that votes under their direction. "Very often it has been found that the percentage of voting goes down when dissidence is on the rise," says another investigator. In fact, private investigators say, it is their monitoring which kept dissident activity in the Congress in Delhi firmly in check during the assembly elections last year. The BJP did little to check its dissidents. Needless to say, no political party likes to admit openly about hiring detectives to keep tabs on their flock. An investigator is usually hired after his meeting with senior politicians while the names of candidates are being finalised. The request is almost invariably the same. A dossier on renegades and ticket hopefuls. Says former CBI official V.M. Pandit, who has been tracking candidates of national parties on the campaign trail and who recently made a presentation to one of the leading parties, "Senior partymen are usually interested in getting a complete profile of candidates who are likely to get the ticket to contest or who have been denied a ticket." The profile goes into great detail: the likes/loves of candidates, and includes information on suspected association with Bollywood starlets. There is a section on 'twists and turns', specially for those who have switched parties. There is also a compilation of political comments made by a candidate. A complete fact-file on offences committed by the politician is also included. "We plant our moles in their homes and they become insiders within days of gaining entry," says an investigator. The entire screening exercise costs Rs 4 lakh. Once a dossier is prepared, it is presented to the party high command. The association, which boasts of former CBI director Joginder Singh and former inspector-general (operations) from Punjab, C. Pal Singh, as honorary members claims a success rate of 98 per cent. Experienced detectives say they do not enter serious cases without the approval of the state government, but they are often pressed into service for peripheral intelligence-gathering by politicians. This is defined as gauging the mood of the party functionaries. There are close to 400 members of the association who are former policemen, intelligence and army officials. It is their ability to merge and go unnoticed that pays off. They say keeping tabs on politicians is easy. Despite all those closed-door meetings, much of the carping and backbiting is done quite openly—one only has to be there at the right time. "Usually they (party workers) get drunk and start abusing each other," says a detective. "Earlier such sleuthing was carried out by government agencies for the party in power." According to CBI director Joginder Singh, it's quite natural for political parties to seek out information on their opposition as well as known dissidents in their party. "For private detectives to be on the rolls of political parties is a welcome move as this will clean up public life," he says, and adds that most of the tapes doing the rounds are the work of detectives. Of course, no political party is likely to admit that they have employed detectives to spy on rivals or to keep their own house in order. But many politicians in power believe that it is more convenient to have their own sleuths than depend on state-run agencies, from which there is always the risk of an embarrassing media leak. From 2tahamehmood at googlemail.com Sun Apr 19 01:22:53 2009 From: 2tahamehmood at googlemail.com (Taha Mehmood) Date: Sat, 18 Apr 2009 20:52:53 +0100 Subject: [Reader-list] Postmodernism & transport planning Message-ID: <65be9bf40904181252u29bddce2mbea2b6752296fca7@mail.gmail.com> Dear All, In addition to the recent exchange of mails on transport and nano, here's on more view. The writer of the post below is an IAS officer and he suggests that in so far as transport planning for Indian roads is concerned, maybe we require 'a different set of rules to reconcile competing and conflicting claims for safety, efficient movement, and the quality of the built environment. In this setting, real improvement in traffic congestion is only possible by using contextual designs, based on postmodern ideas, to influence traffic speeds and driver behaviour'. I think for all of us here, ideas like small cars, road capacity, urban traffic congestion and so on must be viewed from a range of perspectives to arrive at a more informed understanding of the debate. Regards Taha http://economictimes.indiatimes.com/Opinion/Postmodernism--transport-planning/articleshow/4416628.cms?curpg=2 Postmodernism & transport planning 18 Apr 2009, 0556 hrs IST, Sameer Sharma , The emergence of postmodernism as an alternative to modernism has useful lessons for Indian policymakers. Modernism, in the words of David Harvey, “entails a ruthless break with any or all preceding historical traditions” and the west during the pursuit of the “High Modern” project completely disassembled existing historic structures because all historical social systems were perceived to be inherently backward, which held back progress; therefore, had to be abandoned. On the other hand, India never completely let go of its past and the “revalorisation of tradition” has once again made India a wonder for the western mind, in the way described by A L Basham. A product of Enlightenment, the modernist project rests on the underlying notion that laws of reality objectively exist and by applying scientific principles these can be discovered and mastered to promote human welfare. Hence, modernism searches for general theories and universal laws, disregarding culture and context. On the other hand, a paradigm shift occurred with postmodernism, which tries to understand reality by looking for culture-specific characteristics and unique local conditions. Similar trends are visible in urban planning, which has veered away from a “Fordist” approach to create technologically efficient urban forms, such as mass suburbia, “international-style” towers in inner cities, and auto -dependent neighbourhoods to recognition of urban diversity and complexity. Accordingly, Corbusier’s concept of a house as a “machine for living” and claim that a “city made for speed is made for success” has been replaced by Lynch’s “good city form”, Boyer’s search for a “city of collective memory”, and Calthropian human, as opposed to machine-based, planning-scales. Postmodern urban sensibility, directed towards “pluralism, a search for character, urban identity, unique features, visual references, creation of landmarks”, provides a basis to design innovative and inclusive India-specific urban policies and one example is the application of post-modern principles to transport planning and traffic engineering. Western transport planning is based on creating “traffic zones” to achieve consistency, conformity and predictability in auto and pedestrian movement. Roads are categorised into a hierarchy of road types, suitable for various functions, speeds, and traffic volumes (e.g., national highways, neighbourhood roads). Furthermore, there is segregation between traffic and pedestrian networks on roads. The principles of categorisation and segregation were operationalised by the west during the last 75 years. Commonly, Eugene Henard is considered to be the progenitor of modern traffic engineering, and Holroyd Smith introduced these principles to the US, which were later codified by Arthur Tuttle and Edward Holmes. Segregation between traffic and pedestrian networks was first tried in Radburn, New Jersey, and the separation principle was further developed in the Buchanan report, Traffic in Towns. Undoubtedly, such “traffic zones” are required for the exclusive use of vehicles on highways, but recent postmodern practices in Europe are also looking at roads as “social zones”. Unlike traffic zones, social zones integrate car and pedestrian movement. The combination of traffic with pedestrian movements, children’s play, and social activities is based on the “woonerf principles” developed by Niek de Boer and Joost Vahl in the Netherlands. Similar postmodern concepts were also experimented in the UK in the “Home Zones” programme. Traditionally, transport planning is based on the 3Es — enforcement, education, and engineering. The common belief is that traffic will flow smoothly if traffic rules are enforced, public educated, and roads upgraded to universal standards. On the contrary, woonerf principles envisage streets to be social zones. For instance, the city of Christiansfeld, Denmark used “ambiguity and urban legibility” in street design to reduce high death rates on the town’s central traffic intersection. Instead of erecting warning signs, road markings, and traffic signals, Bjarne Winterberg and the engineering firm Ramboll removed traffic signals and road markings. No mode of transport was given priority and pedestrians, buses, cars, and trucks used eye contact to negotiate the junction. Surface treatment, lightning columns, and junction corners were squared up. The purpose was to make the intersection resemble the centre of the town or to create a public realm. Expectedly, the number of killed or seriously injured (KSI) during the last three years was reduced to zero, moreover, traffic backups were reduced. Compared to junctions having traffic signals, ambiguous junctions prevent accidents, reduce delays, and are cheaper to construct and maintain. Shared space is another woonerf principle that is applied to transform busy traffic intersections. In Friesland market town of Oosterwolde, different types of traffic intermingle giving an impression of chaos and disorder, in fact, traffic negotiates the junction using eye contact and care for other types of transport. No state regulation or control is visible and traffic movement depends on informal convention and legibility. Living in an urban environment in which kerbs are used to prevent interaction of pedestrian activity with carriageway and painted lines show places humans should walk and cross streets, people coming from the high-income countries are appalled by the absence of kerbs, road markings, bollards, traffic signals, barriers, and signs in India. What they fail to understand is that the traffic, as it is in Indian cities, reflects the local values and cultural history of the place leading to lack of uniformity and ambiguity, requiring a different set of rules to reconcile competing and conflicting claims for safety, efficient movement, and the quality of the built environment. In this setting, real improvement in traffic congestion is only possible by using contextual designs, based on postmodern ideas, to influence traffic speeds and driver behaviour. (The author is an IAS officer. Views are personal.) From shivam at kafila.org Sun Apr 19 01:45:43 2009 From: shivam at kafila.org (shivam at kafila.org) Date: Sun, 19 Apr 2009 01:45:43 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] A sham called election reporting Message-ID: ( Apologies for cross-posting at http://kafila.org ) A ‘Kashmiri’ ‘Gurjar’ ‘Muslim’ is contesting the Dausa Lok Sabha seat. As an independent. For the simple reason that after delimitation, Dausa became a reserved constituency. Rerseved for the Scheduled Tribes. Meenas are ST’s. Gurjars wanted to be ST’s. Not only didn’t they not get that, they were deprived of Dausa, where the feudal PIlots had been Gurjar kings. So someone thought of this simple idea: get a Kashmiri Gurjar. Kashmiri Gurjars are ST’s. That candidate is campaigning around Dausa, and I gather that even the Brahmins of the area are supporting him! Him! A Kashmiri Muslim Gurjar! Why? For the reason that they don’t want to let a Meena win. Political party notwithstanding. This kind of phenomenon, of people turning against the dominant caste, was seen in the Rajasthan Assembly elections. Hindus forgot communal polarisation and voted for a Muslim to defeat a Jat. A member of a little known Scheduled Tribe won because nobody wanted the Meena to win. So far, did you hear the name of any political party? Okay, let’s have an example where we will talk parties. In Uttar Pradesh, a CSDS survey said only 17% Brahmins voted for the BSP. Surprised? The media created the impression that Brahmins voted BSP in large numbers. They did. Only in the constituencies where the BSP candidate was a Brahmin. Well, ok, some Kanyakubja Brahmins perhaps voted in other places too. But the Saryupari Brahmins have much less love for the BSP because the BSP’s Brahmin mascot, Satish Chandra Mishra, is a Kanyakubja Brahmin. Welcome to post-Mandal India. Political parties don’t contest elections. Castes contest elections through political parties. Castes vote for a candidate of their own caste, sub-caste or gotra… “My gotra has seven villages, his gotra only two,” I heard from one candidate recently. And how does the media report elections? It does by focusing on ’star’ candidates, on tu-tu-main-main soundbytes, by opinion polls conducted even before candidates are announced, by making broad presumptions such as ‘Muslims are going to vote for Congress’. It’s not as if journalists don’t know that elections are fought constituency by constituency, or that caste politics is not as simple as A plus B plus C, or that the first-past-the-poll system of elections makes opinion poll calculation of seats based on ’swings’ meaningless. Just that real election reporting is not sexy copy; the reader/viewer, who is middle class, is not interested in caste (presumably), because soundbytes, farcical controversies and visual-created news events make people hook to the TV channel and bring TRPs. Let’s continue to imagine our world as the commercial media presents it to us. The real India, the real elections, are way too depressing, disturbing, disenchanting. Let us celebrate our collective ignorance, let us watch our star anchors reflect our anger and rage, and let us continue to sip our wine. How does it matter who becomes PM? Our lives will be the same. Can’t the election commission let me vote through sms? One of the TV channels can help them. Going to a polling booth is just not worth it. best shivam From shivam at kafila.org Sun Apr 19 01:52:42 2009 From: shivam at kafila.org (shivam at kafila.org) Date: Sun, 19 Apr 2009 01:52:42 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Why do Schools and Colleges in India Kill? In-Reply-To: <539E5D98-76EF-4A1F-B630-06A356F73001@sarai.net> References: <539E5D98-76EF-4A1F-B630-06A356F73001@sarai.net> Message-ID: Dear Shuddha, I wonder if it is possible to answer your question without resorting to cliche. But I think the primary reason for this is that we as a society do not look at schools and colleges as institutions of learning, or of imparting and sharing knowledge. That is really secondary. We see these institutions as merely those that give out degrees, and these institutions must be used for this purpose just as the gods are appeased for favours. The main function that pedagogical institutions thus perform is to 'straighten out' the students, to make 'boys out of men', to make them 'ready for the world'. We see these institutions are perform social functions rather than exclusively pedagogical functions. To that extent, violence is to be employed and condoned in performing such functions. It is not unsual to find parents asking teachers not to 'spare the rod'. Is this surprising really, in a society where men regularly beat up their wives and children? best shivam On Sat, Apr 18, 2009 at 12:39 AM, Shuddhabrata Sengupta wrote: > Dear All, > > I find the incidence of deaths due to 'ragging' in educational > institutions in india and the recent death of a young girl, a student > of Class three, Shanno Khan, in a municipal school in Delhi caused by > the corporal punishment meted out to her by her teacher because she > could not tell the meaning of a word in English, totally shocking. > > Why is this murderous authoritarianism so prevalent in places of > education in India. Why do students and teachers behave like > executioners and impose so much violence on those weaker or smaller > or younger than them? > > What is it about the nature of education and pedagogy in our society > that makes it so conducive to producing little fascists and martinets? > > I hope this list can take some time to reflect on this. > > best > > Shuddha > > > > Shuddhabrata Sengupta > The Sarai Programme at CSDS > Raqs Media Collective > shuddha at sarai.net > www.sarai.net > www.raqsmediacollective.net > > > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with subscribe in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> From c.anupam at gmail.com Sun Apr 19 03:16:08 2009 From: c.anupam at gmail.com (anupam chakravartty) Date: Sun, 19 Apr 2009 03:16:08 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Shameful Torture of 23 Muslims Prisoners on March 26-27 In Sabarmati Jail, Ahamedabad: A Report by Human Rights Activists In-Reply-To: References: <1f9180970904180521x3453d13byd40ef733b81b3185@mail.gmail.com> <777321.58621.qm@web57203.mail.re3.yahoo.com> <341380d00904180945i58bb150dh58dc8aae21a9339f@mail.gmail.com> <47e122a70904181028w493c617ey99ad535195948290@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <341380d00904181446uef32048s8541e6be290e1001@mail.gmail.com> Hi inder, the idea of lesser evil is such a temptation that in our quest for finding absolute governance and civility, we end up negotiating with the real evil -- the lesser one. On Sat, Apr 18, 2009 at 11:12 PM, Rakesh Iyer wrote: > Dear Inder jee > > The question you have raised is that democratic states can also resort to > war. My contention is that this is due to lack of democracy actually. If > there really was democracy, before going to war, the govt. would have > conducted the referendum to find out whether people wanted the war to take > place or not. Of course, we could have debated the moral consequences of > what the people chose and what they didn't, but it would certainly ensure > that democracy prevails in taking decisions. > > But govts. the world over don't want to give this right to people as for > them, their contract agreement goes under threat. In many nations across > the > world, elections are a kind of contract given by people to let someone rule > for a period of 5 years, during which the person given the contract feels > he/she can take any decision as they please. And this is what has ruined > democracy. > > Therefore, it's not democracy, but the lack of it, which ensures such > situations. > > As for the BJP, I really pity them. So also the right wing people. They > constantly have a tendency to prove that they are masculine or Hindu > religion(and Hindus) must be masculine, so also for authoritarians. > Probably > they have some complex regarding that they are not masculine enough. They > have my sympathies for being pessimistic about themselves. > > And what's more, they have an attitude of dismissiveness and arrogance as > well (at least their major leaders show these tendencies). Forget ideology, > they probably would have this tendency in public life as well even on > personal relations. I don't know they can actually create a stronger state, > which is their professed goal (not exactly mine). After all, as I have said > earlier, unity is strength. > > Hence, even on the goal of making India a superpower, the RSS led parivar > is > going to lead to the opposite of their own professed goal. > > Regards > > Rakesh > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > subscribe in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> > From rakesh.rnbdj at gmail.com Sun Apr 19 07:06:51 2009 From: rakesh.rnbdj at gmail.com (Rakesh Iyer) Date: Sun, 19 Apr 2009 07:06:51 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] A sham called election reporting In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Dear Shivam Indeed a nice article. It's something which the urban middle class in particular must understand instead of making broad and useless assumptions. Equally, even in Rajasthan, it's not as if all Hindus would have voted for a Muslim against a Jat. Many issues are important in deciding elections, and probably this could be one (to defeat the Jat). As for the news items mostly circulated, we now have the Advani & Modi v/s Manmohan clash. This is all rubbish. When the election results come out, they will reflect that such a clash was totally useless. But then again, our mainstream media would distort the reality to unnecessarily portray that as a 'breaking news' indeed. Regards Rakesh From taraprakash at gmail.com Sun Apr 19 08:41:00 2009 From: taraprakash at gmail.com (taraprakash) Date: Sat, 18 Apr 2009 23:11:00 -0400 Subject: [Reader-list] Why do Schools and Colleges in India Kill? References: <539E5D98-76EF-4A1F-B630-06A356F73001@sarai.net> Message-ID: <5AF980B6C358408AA71BA3229F58BF07@tara> Well, the answer can also be found in certain Foucault readings. I guess in India we are still in the early stages of enlightenment, so the punishment appears so crude. As we progress, the punishment will get sophisticated, even though the effect will remain almost the same. Tagore had presumed such an education system in India in his Parrot Story (Tota Kahani)) where the king and his administration try to educate/civilize a parrot and end up killing him up. Having said that, we should be grateful that people are not yet seeing it with green glasses otherwise it would again become just a minority issue. ----- Original Message ----- From: To: "Shuddhabrata Sengupta" Cc: "sarai list" Sent: Saturday, April 18, 2009 4:22 PM Subject: Re: [Reader-list] Why do Schools and Colleges in India Kill? > Dear Shuddha, > > I wonder if it is possible to answer your question without resorting > to cliche. But I think the primary reason for this is that we as a > society do not look at schools and colleges as institutions of > learning, or of imparting and sharing knowledge. That is really > secondary. We see these institutions as merely those that give out > degrees, and these institutions must be used for this purpose just as > the gods are appeased for favours. The main function that pedagogical > institutions thus perform is to 'straighten out' the students, to make > 'boys out of men', to make them 'ready for the world'. We see these > institutions are perform social functions rather than exclusively > pedagogical functions. > > To that extent, violence is to be employed and condoned in performing > such functions. It is not unsual to find parents asking teachers not > to 'spare the rod'. Is this surprising really, in a society where men > regularly beat up their wives and children? > > best > shivam > > On Sat, Apr 18, 2009 at 12:39 AM, Shuddhabrata Sengupta > wrote: >> Dear All, >> >> I find the incidence of deaths due to 'ragging' in educational >> institutions in india and the recent death of a young girl, a student >> of Class three, Shanno Khan, in a municipal school in Delhi caused by >> the corporal punishment meted out to her by her teacher because she >> could not tell the meaning of a word in English, totally shocking. >> >> Why is this murderous authoritarianism so prevalent in places of >> education in India. Why do students and teachers behave like >> executioners and impose so much violence on those weaker or smaller >> or younger than them? >> >> What is it about the nature of education and pedagogy in our society >> that makes it so conducive to producing little fascists and martinets? >> >> I hope this list can take some time to reflect on this. >> >> best >> >> Shuddha >> >> >> >> Shuddhabrata Sengupta >> The Sarai Programme at CSDS >> Raqs Media Collective >> shuddha at sarai.net >> www.sarai.net >> www.raqsmediacollective.net >> >> >> _________________________________________ >> reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. >> Critiques & Collaborations >> To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with >> subscribe in the subject header. >> To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list >> List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > subscribe in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> From taraprakash at gmail.com Sun Apr 19 08:50:34 2009 From: taraprakash at gmail.com (taraprakash) Date: Sat, 18 Apr 2009 23:20:34 -0400 Subject: [Reader-list] A sham called election reporting References: Message-ID: You can afford the wine so you can afford the escapism. I thought you had problem with elections in Kashmir, but now you seem to be having issues with the electoral process in UP and one seat in Rajasthan. So the electorates throughout India buy wine and sip on the election day? What a great bourgeois idea! ----- Original Message ----- From: To: "sarai list" Sent: Saturday, April 18, 2009 4:15 PM Subject: [Reader-list] A sham called election reporting >( Apologies for cross-posting at http://kafila.org ) > > A ‘Kashmiri’ ‘Gurjar’ ‘Muslim’ is contesting the Dausa Lok Sabha seat. > As an independent. For the simple reason that after delimitation, > Dausa became a reserved constituency. Rerseved for the Scheduled > Tribes. Meenas are ST’s. Gurjars wanted to be ST’s. Not only didn’t > they not get that, they were deprived of Dausa, where the feudal > PIlots had been Gurjar kings. > > So someone thought of this simple idea: get a Kashmiri Gurjar. > Kashmiri Gurjars are ST’s. > > That candidate is campaigning around Dausa, and I gather that even the > Brahmins of the area are supporting him! Him! A Kashmiri Muslim > Gurjar! > > Why? For the reason that they don’t want to let a Meena win. Political > party notwithstanding. > > This kind of phenomenon, of people turning against the dominant caste, > was seen in the Rajasthan Assembly elections. Hindus forgot communal > polarisation and voted for a Muslim to defeat a Jat. A member of a > little known Scheduled Tribe won because nobody wanted the Meena to > win. > > So far, did you hear the name of any political party? > > Okay, let’s have an example where we will talk parties. > > In Uttar Pradesh, a CSDS survey said only 17% Brahmins voted for the > BSP. Surprised? The media created the impression that Brahmins voted > BSP in large numbers. > > They did. Only in the constituencies where the BSP candidate was a > Brahmin. > > Well, ok, some Kanyakubja Brahmins perhaps voted in other places too. > But the Saryupari Brahmins have much less love for the BSP because the > BSP’s Brahmin mascot, Satish Chandra Mishra, is a Kanyakubja Brahmin. > > Welcome to post-Mandal India. Political parties don’t contest > elections. Castes contest elections through political parties. > > Castes vote for a candidate of their own caste, sub-caste or gotra… > “My gotra has seven villages, his gotra only two,” I heard from one > candidate recently. > > And how does the media report elections? It does by focusing on ’star’ > candidates, on tu-tu-main-main soundbytes, by opinion polls conducted > even before candidates are announced, by making broad presumptions > such as ‘Muslims are going to vote for Congress’. > > It’s not as if journalists don’t know that elections are fought > constituency by constituency, or that caste politics is not as simple > as A plus B plus C, or that the first-past-the-poll system of > elections makes opinion poll calculation of seats based on ’swings’ > meaningless. > > Just that real election reporting is not sexy copy; the reader/viewer, > who is middle class, is not interested in caste (presumably), because > soundbytes, farcical controversies and visual-created news events make > people hook to the TV channel and bring TRPs. > > Let’s continue to imagine our world as the commercial media presents > it to us. The real India, the real elections, are way too depressing, > disturbing, disenchanting. > > Let us celebrate our collective ignorance, let us watch our star > anchors reflect our anger and rage, and let us continue to sip our > wine. > > How does it matter who becomes PM? Our lives will be the same. > > Can’t the election commission let me vote through sms? One of the TV > channels can help them. Going to a polling booth is just not worth it. > > best > shivam > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > subscribe in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> From taraprakash at gmail.com Sun Apr 19 09:15:54 2009 From: taraprakash at gmail.com (taraprakash) Date: Sat, 18 Apr 2009 23:45:54 -0400 Subject: [Reader-list] The Communist Conspiracy ! References: <6b79f1a70904171049u68293888kf906d1891a3edc83@mail.gmail.com><6b79f1a70904171227l47c70b43lb8cd5ca7816c20ad@mail.gmail.com><0AB2F866-775B-4D5E-B250-28F4E0533882@sarai.net> <6b79f1a70904172229j59ea30f1o8112e730fac5bf90@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <9D3982E39CD84949981ED6EF1636CCBD@tara> I won't be able to say anything in answer to the below questions, but Indira Gandhi, whom Atalji equated with "maan Durga" got a lot of support from USSR/KGB. At one point of time India received a lot of financial support from the USSR, in that entire India was on the payroll of USSR. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Pawan Durani" To: "Shuddhabrata Sengupta" Cc: "sarai list" Sent: Saturday, April 18, 2009 1:29 AM Subject: Re: [Reader-list] The Communist Conspiracy ! > Dear Shuddha , > > Thoughts that emerge out are > > 1. Communists parties in India are not following the 'real' communist > ideology. That the Communists parties in India are more or less more > opportunistic who dont stick to their policies and deviate for their own > gains. > > 2. You seem to be more of a hardcore 'communist' and not satisfied with > 'Nationhood' policies of the Indian Communists. > > 3. You believe that the world or people in South Asia would have been much > better and place more peaceful , had India been divided into smaller > sovereign states. > > 4. You do not support the Communists policy of supporting radical Islamic > politician and alleged terrorist Madani in Kerela . However I would like > to > know what may be the compuslion of this alliance .....electoral gains ? > not > letting Hindu right wing leaders getting elected even if it means having > an > alliance with an alleged terrorist ? > > 5. Roy had founded the Indian Communist party in 1920 in USSR , though in > 1924 or 25 the party was again claimed to be founded by [ don't recall the > name ] . > > 6. I somehow am surprised to learn ,in plain terms, your hate for Netaji > Subhash Chander Bose. Netaji was a great freedom fighter. Would like to > learn why does the left brigade hate 'Netaji'. > > 7. Though you may have given an explanation that the leftist were close > to > Tagores institution , however sometimes back I had read a letter written > by > Rabindra Nath tagore , and in that letter he did not seem to hold good > views > about the communists. I would try to search for that particular letter. > > 8. Is it not the fact that according to Vasili Mithrokhin who had secret > KGB > document , it was allaeged that Indian Communists were on payroll of KGB ? > > 9. What kind of disciplinary action did Communits take when it was alleged > that senior communist leaders like Dange and Rajeshwar rao were supposed > to be reaceiving money and favours from KGB . > > 10. Is it not true that the biggest corruption in India was founded by the > Communists , who traded with India and introduced the 'middle man' > phenomena > ? > > Would like to learn more .... > > Pawan Durani > www.thekashmir.wordpress.com > > > > On Sat, Apr 18, 2009 at 1:25 AM, Shuddhabrata Sengupta > wrote: > >> 1. The programme of Communist Parties (as it was expressed during and >> after the first world war) was against Nationalism in all forms. In >> contrast, today, and since Stalin's adoption of the theory of 'Socialism >> in >> One Country' almost all Communist parties endorse nationalism in one form >> or >> the other. >> >> 2. This includes all Communist Parties in India. Every Indian Communist >> Party (none of whom I support) declares loudly and clearly that it wants >> to >> protect the nation-state in india. This is a deviation from the reasons >> why >> those who were to become Communists broke with the prevailing nationalist >> currents in Social Democratic parties in the early twentieth century. >> They >> broke because they considered loyalty to the international working class >> movement more important than loyalty to any form of the nation state. >> >> 3. For me, the fact that the undivided CPI supported the Pakistan demand >> is >> just as meaningless as the fact that its successors now support Indian >> Nationalism. Nationalism, whether Pakistani, or Indian, is a means to >> divide >> the oppressed classes of one country from their counterparts in others. A >> consistent communist position on the national question would mean >> opposition >> to all forms of 'national liberation'. This is the position of Marx and >> Rosa >> Luxemburg. >> The fact that those who call themselves communists have stopped doing >> this >> for a long time is an indication of how low they have fallen from the >> heights they once occupied. >> >> 4. The Empire of British India, (the state that India and Pakistan >> inherited) was a prison house of many peoples, and the prison house >> continued exactly as it had done after independence and partition. Though >> I >> am not interested in nationalism of any sort. A post-1947 scenario of >> smaller states (as happened when other Empires broke up) may have made >> more >> sense than the two behemoths of India and Pakistan that continue to >> stagger >> through history. Had there been smaller post 1947 states, we probably >> would >> have seen a European Union type of move towards greater confederal >> consolidation by now. >> >> There certainly would not have been the bloated armies and nuclear >> arsenals that we see in South Asia today. This might have meant more >> allocation of resources for health, education, housing and less >> attrition, >> perhaps calmer populations. >> >> Smaller states in South Asia would probably not have been able to afford >> such irrational luxuries (as bloated militaries) , nor would they have >> got >> drawn into the Cold War in the way that India and Pakistan did through >> the >> fifties, sixties, seventies and eighties. >> >> 5. As far as I know, the undivided CPI was formed in 1925 in Tashkent, >> by >> Indian exiles in the Soviet Union. Several communist circles existed in >> India at that time, but since the effort at forming a party was deemed >> illegal, the first 'official' party was formed elsewhere. However, before >> (and after) 1925 several communists continued to work in 'Kisan Mazdoor >> Parties' and 'Lal Nishan' in Bengal and Punjab. Several of these >> activists >> were already in prison or in preventive custody, so they were formally >> outside the undivided CPI, as they were not in a condition to join it, >> some >> did not even know about it. Many, in fact most, joined in the brief >> intervals when they were released after 1925 >> >> 6. You are right, two wrongs do not make a right. But, I think the >> circumstances of the period 1942-45 are complex, and I do not think that >> the >> decisions that people and parties took in that turmoil can be best >> described >> as 'right' or 'wrong'. Just as you say you are not interested in >> defending >> the RSS, I too am not interested in defending the undivided CPI. I am >> merely >> pointing out to you that in this case, both these organizations >> effectively >> followed the same course of action, namely a tacit collaboration with the >> British Raj's war aims during a period of the Second World War. >> >> As for now, I think that it is shameful that the CPI(M) in Kerala works >> with the tacit endorsement of a blatant Muslim Fundamentalist like >> Madani. I >> see absolutely no difference between Hindu and Muslim Communalism. if the >> CPI (M) takes the support of Madani today, they might as well end up >> supporting and being supported by the RSS (or some faction of it) some >> day. >> I would not at all be surprised if that were to happen, someday. >> >> Shuddha >> >> >> >> >> >> >> On 18-Apr-09, at 12:57 AM, Pawan Durani wrote: >> >> Shuddha, >> Thank you for your detailed mail . However why are communists always a >> suspect to integrity of India ? >> >> >> >> >> Is it not true that Communists originally wanted India to be divided into >> 17 different sovereign states , more like failed 'USSR' ? This is a well >> documented fact . >> >> Why is it that the CPI is not even clear when it was formed ...was it >> 1920 >> or 1925 ? Was it formed in USSR or India ? >> >> Why are the Communists so obsessed with the division of the country ? >> >> I am not interested in RSS , Mahasabha or BJP . They are all 'right' wing >> party .And if they have been wrong , why does a communist have to justify >> their act by comparing it with that of RSS or Gowalkar etc. >> >> Two wrongs dont make one right . I just wanted to learn if the communists >> have a clean past......the present is all well know to us and is being >> exhibited in Kerela with an electoral alliance with Madhani. >> >> It would make an interesting understanding if you would explain further ! >> >> Pawan >> >> On Sat, Apr 18, 2009 at 12:21 AM, Shuddhabrata Sengupta >> > > wrote: >> >>> Pawan, >>> >>> The Communist Party of India and its various off shoots over the years >>> have a great deal to answer for, not least for their continuing fealty >>> to >>> the cult of Stalinism, one of the terrible monstrosities of the >>> twentieth >>> century. I have no doubts about that at all. >>> >>> However, in our zeal to interrogate the legacy of the Communist Parties >>> in >>> this country, we need to be careful in terms of distinguishing a desire >>> to >>> question from a desire to abuse. And I think it makes sense to >>> distinguish >>> fact from fiction. >>> >>> The article referred by you offers no sources, cites no evidence for any >>> of the accusations it makes. And some of the allegations it makes are >>> truly >>> hilarious. >>> >>> For instance - here is a priceless one - >>> >>> "During the Ranadive party-line in 1948-50, Mahatma Gandhi was >>> “unmasked” >>> as the cleverest bourgeois scoundrel and Rabindranath as mãgeer dãlãl, >>> that >>> is, a pimp." >>> Rabindranath Tagore died on August 7, 1941, so it is a bit specious on >>> the >>> part of the author to suggest that the undivided CPI's Ranadive period >>> (1948-50) would have seen attacks on someone who was not alive. >>> I would like to see where exactly the author finds the source of this >>> statement. >>> >>> Saumyendranath Tagore, the poet's nephew was a significant communist >>> activist (though he belonged to the RCPI, which stood to the 'left' of >>> the >>> undivided CPI) and Tagore maintained cordial relationships with several >>> communist activists and intellectuals. It is a little known fact that >>> Tagore >>> actually worked very hard to ensure that the civil rights of communist >>> detenues in British prisons throughout the 1920s and 30s. >>> >>> If anything, the undivided CPI firmly took on Tagore's legacy and in >>> some >>> ways interpreted it to its own ends, Tagore's poems and songs were >>> regularly >>> part of the CPI's cultural universe. I know this for certain, because >>> among >>> other things, I know that CPI activists when they were forced to work >>> 'underground' in the 1940s often worked 'overground' through Tagore >>> Memorial >>> Societies in small towns and villages in Bengal. This was by no means >>> insincere. >>> >>> The undivided CPI did however downplay the fact that thoughTagore had >>> expressed admiration for the social strides made in the Soviet Union, he >>> had >>> also been sharply critical of the Stalin regime's suppression of the >>> freedom >>> of expression. >>> >>> Certain intellectuals associated with the Chinese Communist Party had >>> been >>> sharply critical of Tagore during his visit to China in the 1920s. Some >>> other intellectuals and writers associated with the Chinese Communist >>> Party >>> were welcoming and appreciative. However, the criticism of some of these >>> intellectuals of Tagore never gained any currency, either during the >>> 1920s, >>> or afterwards, in Indian communist circles. >>> >>> As for Bose, yes, he was caricatured in cartoons in the CPI's paper >>> 'Peoples War' as a stooge of Japanese Imperialism. And no one can deny >>> the >>> fact that Subhash Bose was both a subordinate bit player in Japanese >>> Imperial Military Strategy, and a long time admirer of Fascist and Nazi >>> methods. He was not alone in this, both he and Golwalkar of the RSS have >>> stated (on record) their admiration for Nazi Germany. Read the >>> unexpurgated >>> edition of 'We, our Our Nationhood Defined' by Golwalkar, and the >>> 'Indian >>> Struggle' by Bose. Both are not very difficult to find. I personally >>> think >>> that the people of South Asia were spared great calamities by the timely >>> exit of the deeply authoritarian and militarist Bose from the Indian >>> political scene after 1945. Bose in power would certainly have worked >>> towards a fascist programme, his own stated political intentions were >>> quite >>> explicit in this matter. >>> >>> As for the charge of being collaborators of the British in the 1940s. >>> The >>> reality is (as usual) a little more complicated than you would perhaps >>> like. >>> Thousands of Communist party members and activists were imprisoned, some >>> for >>> more than a decade, without charge, from the 1920s onwards. The party >>> itself >>> was deemed illegal. In 1942, when the undivided CPI declared that it >>> would >>> support the war effort in India, because Britain and the USSR were on >>> the >>> same side in the war, the undivided CPI was legalized, and some >>> Communist >>> detenus and political prisoners were released (many of whom were re >>> arrested >>> soon after). However, it is true that the undivided CPI got a breather >>> of >>> sorts. Police surveillance on Communists, however, continued, especially >>> on >>> those, who participated in the 42 struggles in their individual >>> capacities. >>> >>> Several other organizations and individuals aided the war effort of the >>> then British Colonial regime in India. Including the RSS and the Hindu >>> Mahasabha, and its eminences such as Savarkar. Savarkar regularly >>> addressed >>> rallies for recruitment in the colonial regime's army. >>> >>> So, if the source you pointed to is justified in dubbing activists of >>> the >>> undivided CPI as spies for the British, then the same charge could just >>> as >>> justifiably levelled against the RSS, the Hindu Mahasabha and the >>> predecessors and inspirations of the current Hindutva family of >>> organizations, including political parties such as the BJP. >>> >>> Shuddha >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> Shuddhabrata Sengupta >>> The Sarai Programme at CSDS >>> Raqs Media Collective >>> shuddha at sarai.net >>> www.sarai.net >>> www.raqsmediacollective.net >>> >>> >>> Shuddhabrata Sengupta >>> The Sarai Programme at CSDS >>> Raqs Media Collective >>> shuddha at sarai.net >>> www.sarai.net >>> www.raqsmediacollective.net >>> >>> >>> >> >> Shuddhabrata Sengupta >> The Sarai Programme at CSDS >> Raqs Media Collective >> shuddha at sarai.net >> www.sarai.net >> www.raqsmediacollective.net >> >> >> > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > subscribe in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> From rakesh.rnbdj at gmail.com Sun Apr 19 09:34:43 2009 From: rakesh.rnbdj at gmail.com (Rakesh Iyer) Date: Sun, 19 Apr 2009 09:34:43 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Why do Schools and Colleges in India Kill? In-Reply-To: <5AF980B6C358408AA71BA3229F58BF07@tara> References: <539E5D98-76EF-4A1F-B630-06A356F73001@sarai.net> <5AF980B6C358408AA71BA3229F58BF07@tara> Message-ID: @ Tara prakash jee Dear Sir Issues are never looked at from saffron glasses or green glasses, nor should be they looked at from such glasses. They should be looked at only from human glasses or the issue of humanity. The problem is not that Muslims are killing Hindus or Hindus are killing Muslims, the problem is that one human being is killing the other in the name of protecting Hinduism/Islam or taking revenge for something. @ All The problem of violence during ragging is actually symptomatic of the larger malaise deeply afflicting our society. Our society is one where people have to harden themselves against feelings. And it's not just in personal life, but in public life as well. Why does a rape accused, after being exonerated from court for lack of evidence, get publicly beaten to death just outside the court? Why do accused thieves get beaten to death in villages of Bihar/UP/somewhere else? Why did people in the Jessica Lall murder case, inspite of having seen the murder themselves, not put themselves as witnesses? And why did those who did turn up as witnesses, turn hostile? Why did Zaheera Sheikh keep on making flips and flops about her position in the Best Bakery case, so much so that SC had to order her to jail for doing so again and again? Why is the word 'katua' so freely used in our vocabulary (and I don't mean the Sarai list vocabulary, and please pardon my usage of the word), in my own city Bhopal among my friends, among people around me, and even among policemen? And now I have heard it in IIT as well, though rarely does the talk concentrate on Muslims. And now we have Varun Gandhi as well using the same word. Why is it that we always ask for 'examples to be made' of people having committed rape/ragging crimes, or for that even matter even terrorist crimes? Doesn't that amount to violence or supporting it as well? While I agree with Shivam's assertion that institutions are not exactly there, I would also state that this has got to do with the fact that it's institutions at the local level which have been wiped out by the British rule (and also not built correspondingly by the Indian govt post independence), combined with the feudal caste based system which has ensured that thick-skinned people and power are the best requirements in today's society. Combined with that, a lack of sensitivity among citizens and we have a sure recipe for disaster. Seniors actually enjoy ragging juniors, which means having someone dance in underwears in front of a girls' hostel is a great thing to do in their belief. And since many did the same, in their senior years they force their juniors to do the same as well. Therefore, let's just state that the only concern in our society is to gain power and power can't be gained by sensitive measures, so the lack of insensitivity has to be ingrained among citizens, which has led to this disaster. Institutions not being built or not working properly is also the result of the same. And the same ensures people don't turn witnesses but ask for stronger punishments! Regards Rakesh From sub_sengupta at yahoo.co.in Sun Apr 19 09:53:11 2009 From: sub_sengupta at yahoo.co.in (subhrodip sengupta) Date: Sun, 19 Apr 2009 09:53:11 +0530 (IST) Subject: [Reader-list] Fake Message-ID: <2368.69400.qm@web94711.mail.in2.yahoo.com> As fake e-mails Like from Ecowas Payout Unit, Lotus lotteries or more recently Jennifer P storm the net, RBI has warned net users against it, I would like to ask whether there is any cyber police to check these people, and if there who? Recently local police station refused to lodge such complaints on flimsy grounds! The Crime Branch protals of DP and BAngalore where cyber hq's exist are clearly not concerned about such petty issues. And strangely they are ahead with a new headache MNIC. Add more friends to your messenger and enjoy! Go to http://messenger.yahoo.com/invite/ From sub_sengupta at yahoo.co.in Sun Apr 19 10:18:56 2009 From: sub_sengupta at yahoo.co.in (subhrodip sengupta) Date: Sun, 19 Apr 2009 10:18:56 +0530 (IST) Subject: [Reader-list] New scheme called Black Money Message-ID: <674556.56939.qm@web94703.mail.in2.yahoo.com> Estimation of black money is one thing available from formal sector and bringing it back is something else. For the two hardest leaders in our nation one certainly highly reputed and experienced, I'd put a simple question will this be investor friendly, leave it will our indigeneous burgeois tolerate you? Development so far has been against working class but already there are so many lopholes in taxation laws, then why this drama, why this new false promises and exchanges. OK what you may want them is to spend some money immidiately to green your domestic sector, but as you may be well aware aiming guns always leads to retaliation.All international process and agreements takes time and consensus. That means for next 3 yearts either you dodge yoiur promise or the previous government had already started, oops beurocrats had, what you are now thinking to persue. In a situation, where power supply isnt uninterrupted, Let's see how promises are met. SANS LOOPHOLES, off course. And if this is not spent on mass consumption but rather defence, thanks for increasing Ca's and lawers' fees! Action doth indeed speak louder than words! Add more friends to your messenger and enjoy! Go to http://messenger.yahoo.com/invite/ From indersalim at gmail.com Sun Apr 19 10:47:59 2009 From: indersalim at gmail.com (Inder Salim) Date: Sun, 19 Apr 2009 10:47:59 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Shameful Torture of 23 Muslims Prisoners on March 26-27 In Sabarmati Jail, Ahamedabad: A Report by Human Rights Activists In-Reply-To: <341380d00904181446uef32048s8541e6be290e1001@mail.gmail.com> References: <1f9180970904180521x3453d13byd40ef733b81b3185@mail.gmail.com> <777321.58621.qm@web57203.mail.re3.yahoo.com> <341380d00904180945i58bb150dh58dc8aae21a9339f@mail.gmail.com> <47e122a70904181028w493c617ey99ad535195948290@mail.gmail.com> <341380d00904181446uef32048s8541e6be290e1001@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <47e122a70904182217p332fea63ke54563cc21f4e9fd@mail.gmail.com> Dear Anupam i remember, i concluded my previous reflection deliberately with LESSER EVIL, after reading the wonderful essay forwarded by Jeebesh thanks for pointing out, but this is where we are stuck, and dont know how to move forward unless we mentally revolutionized ourselves for a change in our respective styles of living, and approach to the other till then, we are just negotiating with the real evil, indirectly, as you said, but then there is lot of imagined evil, and imagined virtue which is more important to negotiate first, we are in fact in the process of knowing what has happened to us during all these years of our respective pasts, personal, social and historical.... we are not confidently carrying forward that past, be it political, historical or personal with us without doubt, and i guess, all we need is to bring this DOUBT on the forefront, to let it guide us about our immediate present(s), i guess this cant happen if we dont have a spontaneous understanding of love and universal love, what don’t you think? love inder salim On Sun, Apr 19, 2009 at 3:16 AM, anupam chakravartty wrote: > Hi inder, > > the idea of lesser evil is such a temptation that in our quest for finding > absolute governance and civility, we end up negotiating with the real evil > -- the lesser one. > On Sat, Apr 18, 2009 at 11:12 PM, Rakesh Iyer wrote: > >> Dear Inder jee >> >> The question you have raised is that democratic states can also resort to >> war. My contention is that this is due to lack of democracy actually. If >> there really was democracy, before going to war, the govt. would have >> conducted the referendum to find out whether people wanted the war to take >> place or not. Of course, we could have debated the moral consequences of >> what the people chose and what they didn't, but it would certainly ensure >> that democracy prevails in taking decisions. >> >> But govts. the world over don't want to give this right to people as for >> them, their contract agreement goes under threat. In many nations across >> the >> world, elections are a kind of contract given by people to let someone rule >> for a period of 5 years, during which the person given the contract feels >> he/she can take any decision as they please. And this is what has ruined >> democracy. >> >> Therefore, it's not democracy, but the lack of it, which ensures such >> situations. >> >> As for the BJP, I really pity them. So also the right wing people. They >> constantly have a tendency to prove that they are masculine or Hindu >> religion(and Hindus) must be masculine, so also for authoritarians. >> Probably >> they have some complex regarding that they are not masculine enough. They >> have my sympathies for being pessimistic about themselves. >> >> And what's more, they have an attitude of dismissiveness and arrogance as >> well (at least their major leaders show these tendencies). Forget ideology, >> they probably would have this tendency in public life as well even on >> personal relations. I don't know they can actually create a stronger state, >> which is their professed goal (not exactly mine). After all, as I have said >> earlier, unity is strength. >> >> Hence, even on the goal of making India a superpower, the RSS led parivar >> is >> going to lead to the opposite of their own professed goal. >> >> Regards >> >> Rakesh >> _________________________________________ >> reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. >> Critiques & Collaborations >> To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with >> subscribe in the subject header. >> To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list >> List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> >> > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with subscribe in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> -- http://indersalim.livejournal.com From indersalim at gmail.com Sun Apr 19 10:50:31 2009 From: indersalim at gmail.com (Inder Salim) Date: Sun, 19 Apr 2009 10:50:31 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Guj govt's, not an SIT report In-Reply-To: References: <85a3156a0904181002i7fa2e6p2e67c4e445bdaf2d@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <47e122a70904182220x284086c9j844c3738b18d584a@mail.gmail.com> from Times of India : i quote again: The Supreme Court disregarded this argument and did not allow Rohatgi to read anything from the report. The court went on to state that they were not interested in personal allegations and interested only ensuring that the trials are fair and the truth comes out. On Sat, Apr 18, 2009 at 11:03 PM, Rakesh Iyer wrote: > Dear Jhuma jee > > Thanks for posting this link. > > @ All > > Instead of considering Teesta Satalvad as a problem, it would be better to > consider the unavailability of justice as a problem. > > The way Narendra Modi and BJP along with their supporters would like us to > view this entire scene, it is as if nothing has happened and all the talk of > violence and rapes are a pack of lies. So according to them probably, the > Muslims who suffered are lying. The so-called 'sickular' organizations > (using Pawan jee's words here, for secular) are also lying. The NHRC is also > lying, and so it can be dubbed anti-Hindu. James Miachel Lyngdoh, the then > Election Commissioner is also lying when he says the displaced Muslims and > also the large number of disappered Muslims combined with poor law and order > situation means elections should be postponed. The English media is also > lying. The people who suffered in the violence are also lying. > > Only Narendra Modi and his supporters are speaking the truth. Infact, Modi > made this statement with respect to the post-Godhra incidents: ' Only 100 > died in such incidents and that too in police firing.' Before that , he > claimed there were no violent incidents. > > If there were no violent incidents, what was the need to undertake police > firing at all? Or was there a competition among police to decide who can > kill more Muslims? > > This bigotry and false propaganda of lies has to stop somewhere. The first > step was when the SC dubbed the Modi government as 'modern day Neros' who > watched as Gujarat burned. And I hope the SIT report draws the final nail in > the coffin for the Modi govt for its inaction as they didn't do anything to > stop violence. Infact, till now they have not even been able to conclusively > find out and prove what happened in Godhra. So much talk for avenging insult > to Hindus. > > Regards > > Rakesh > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with subscribe in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> -- http://indersalim.livejournal.com From kmvenuannur at gmail.com Sun Apr 19 10:59:22 2009 From: kmvenuannur at gmail.com (Venugopalan K M) Date: Sun, 19 Apr 2009 10:59:22 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Fwd: What is foreign? In-Reply-To: <1f9180970904182228s454239fct99eeaa7b2b267b01@mail.gmail.com> References: <341380d00904170502t2f452e9ey26522f20921f09bd@mail.gmail.com> <1f9180970904182228s454239fct99eeaa7b2b267b01@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <1f9180970904182229g2e6b0720w2d6d451ee4aaac37@mail.gmail.com> ---------- Forwarded message ---------- From: Venugopalan K M Date: Sun, Apr 19, 2009 at 10:58 AM Subject: Re: [Reader-list] What is foreign? To: anupam chakravartty I was close to believing that 'foreign' is associated with the virulent thoughts disturbing our confidence and ease with which we took great pride in our nation, featured by its unique caste - gender arrangement .For example, threatening the status- quo of the idyllic village communities which lived for centuries unaffected by changes outside their boundaries in political perceptions about human existence..where the common folks' very thought of assertion of his or her freedom outside ways set by convention , instantly becomes adharma and invites the wrath of god(s). On Fri, Apr 17, 2009 at 5:32 PM, anupam chakravartty wrote: > Its a hand :) > > On 4/16/09, Jeebesh wrote: >> >> dear Pawan and others, >> >> Lot of the discussion here is based around an anxiety on something >> called "foreign". It is at times used like a discursive missile :) >> >> Can you please take some time to explain what you mean by foreign and >> why are you so anxious about it? >> >> warmly >> jeebesh >> _________________________________________ >> reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. >> Critiques & Collaborations >> To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with >> subscribe in the subject header. >> To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list >> List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with subscribe in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> -- http://venukm.blogspot.com/ -- http://venukm.blogspot.com/ From sub_sengupta at yahoo.co.in Sun Apr 19 10:45:37 2009 From: sub_sengupta at yahoo.co.in (subhrodip sengupta) Date: Sun, 19 Apr 2009 10:45:37 +0530 (IST) Subject: [Reader-list] mnic to provide or loose identity Message-ID: <290014.9986.qm@web94711.mail.in2.yahoo.com> Wondering if mnic or any such mass raid to justify increasing security expenses would provide individuals an National Identity or is designed to rob the remaining sense of individual identity from them non existence of individual does not negate their identity under many forms. What are implications of this state becomes more powerful machinery with zero resistance against it and police or a chaotic situation in which market for military weapons are deepened and widened. How does literature and imagination explore such a space not too distant. I would resort to one Imraan Hashmis film for this. Ok at least gender and cultural problem7 might be dispensed as quickly as Human Rights . Well in jails dagh has been there. I d then turn to sri lanka and marry a sinhali! Add more friends to your messenger and enjoy! Go to http://messenger.yahoo.com/invite/ From sub_sengupta at yahoo.co.in Sun Apr 19 11:13:30 2009 From: sub_sengupta at yahoo.co.in (subhrodip sengupta) Date: Sun, 19 Apr 2009 11:13:30 +0530 (IST) Subject: [Reader-list] an interesting excersice I NEED COMMENTS Message-ID: <757884.74362.qm@web94707.mail.in2.yahoo.com> Try proving the statement i made that i do not exist doesnt conflict into my existance. Either tilopa's mahamudra tantra or 1st leson of logic and proof system will help u. When is negation violated double negation will be provin false things then. BIPINJI PLz comment. Connect with friends all over the world. Get Yahoo! India Messenger at http://in.messenger.yahoo.com/?wm=n/ From pkray11 at gmail.com Sun Apr 19 11:40:23 2009 From: pkray11 at gmail.com (prakash ray) Date: Sun, 19 Apr 2009 11:40:23 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] . Re: The Communist Conspiracy ! Message-ID: <98f331e00904182310r6a13342ckfc79b1b8f4fd6225@mail.gmail.com> Dear all, I am posting the opinions of some eminent scholars and artists on the role and importance of the Left. Nobody should accuse me of electioneering for the Left. It is also my response to sinister anti-Left propaganda being carried out here by certain people. Thanks PKR 'It was because of the efforts of the Left Parties that the ruling Congress was unable to implement many of its projected measures designed to favour big business at the cost of the people. The Left Parties have uncompromisingly fought against the Congress government’s increasing subservience to US imperialism and growing closeness to Israel. They have also unflinchingly stood up for secularism, women’s rights, affirmative action for minorities and protection of dalits’ interests.' -Irfan Habib 'The formation of a modern Indian nation out of an extraordinarily disparate population riven by millennia of caste, class, gender and other forms of oppression is a marvel of our time. It is a legacy of our prolonged anti-colonial struggle that was founded upon an implicit “social contract”, whose main elements were: electoral democracy based on universal adult franchise, secularism, civil liberties, the end of caste and gender oppression, and the building of an egalitarian society. The BJP which unleashes pogroms against minority communities threatens this contract and hence the integrity of this nation. The Congress, though a secular force, violates this contract in a different way, as its economic policies produce some of the world’s top billionaires together with thousands of peasant suicides. The Left alone can defend this contract and hence this nation, because of its commitment to an anti-communal and anti-imperialist agenda.' -Prabhat Patnaik 'Neoliberal policies were first implemented in India by a Congress Government. The BJP-led NDA government greatly expanded those policies, with accelerated privatisation and deregulation. After Congress returned to power in 2004, heading the UPA, it deepened those same policies further. The result is jobless growth and credit-fed middle-class consumption. Even as GDP grows, wealth flies upward: more dollar billionaires at the top; thousands of peasant suicides at the heart of society. Had the Left not prevented it from further deregulating our financial system, we would be facing a crisis as sharp as that of the US or UK. Victory for either of these parties in the forthcoming elections promises more of the same — even worse, because their policies have made us much more vulnerable to havocs of the global recession.' - Aijaz Ahmed 'The role of the Left, both in the pre-independence and post-independence period, has been crucial in keeping the Indian society, polity and culture imbued with secular values. At the present juncture any weakening of the Left will give a great fillip to the communal and retrograde forces.' - Saeed Mirza 'The Left in India has been in the forefront of meeting the challenge of communal forces who have attacked the freedom of expression of artists and scholars in the name of cultural nationalism. Whenever artists have come under attack, the Left has unhesitatingly defended them.' -Shamshad Husain From kiccovich at yahoo.com Sun Apr 19 12:05:22 2009 From: kiccovich at yahoo.com (francesca recchia) Date: Sat, 18 Apr 2009 23:35:22 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Reader-list] Can't we shut Reader-List temporarily until polls are over Message-ID: <459850.92226.qm@web31701.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Dear all As a non-Indian who tries to follow and contribute to the reading list, the idea of suspending it during the election time sounds quite unfortunate. I guess this can be a challenge to the general sense of responsibility and respect towards the others in how we write what we write. This is definitely not the site for campaigning but should be the place for challenging and exchanging each other's ideas. There is a quotation from Julio Cortazar that I love and might be inspiring in this debate: I write by default and dislocation, and since I write out of an interstice I always invite others to discover one of their own and to see for themselves the garden where the trees bear fruits that turn out to be precious stones. The monster remains the same. Hugs francesca francesca recchia kiccovich at yahoo.com it +39 338 166 3648 iq +964 (0) 750 7085 681 http://www.veleno.tv/bollettini/ --- On Sat, 18/4/09, Inder Salim wrote: From: Inder Salim Subject: Re: [Reader-list] Can't we shut Reader-List temporarily until polls are over To: "reader-list" Date: Saturday, 18 April, 2009, 6:33 PM Dear strange, that we are afraid, scared, and willing to shut even, completely, and transform into a blank page, even..... it is not the political opinion which is disturbing,  but the shallow approach to the convictions of some of the concerned participants, elections or no elections , these couple of guys will always do what they feel is the most urgent, these guys will always ignore the importance of language and style of communicating, for them  to hurl the core content like a stone at the other is very effective tool to score a  point. but alas , that is not so, in the long run, we are left alone, and we have to finally talk to ourselves, anger and violence is not finally enriching our understanding of who we are, and what we want to become. i guess, there is always a room for improvement and dont we have our own animal like political system behaving like that, sadly so cool with love and regards is On Sat, Apr 18, 2009 at 1:51 PM, Yousuf wrote: > > > > > > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with subscribe in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: -- http://indersalim.livejournal.com _________________________________________ reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. Critiques & Collaborations To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with subscribe in the subject header. To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> From rakesh.rnbdj at gmail.com Sun Apr 19 12:07:14 2009 From: rakesh.rnbdj at gmail.com (Rakesh Iyer) Date: Sun, 19 Apr 2009 12:07:14 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] . Re: The Communist Conspiracy ! In-Reply-To: <98f331e00904182310r6a13342ckfc79b1b8f4fd6225@mail.gmail.com> References: <98f331e00904182310r6a13342ckfc79b1b8f4fd6225@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: Dear Prakash jee If this is what you wish to put up, let me ask a few questions here too: 1) The Left was a part of the V.P.Singh govt, supporting it from outside, which ironically was also supported by the BJP from outside. (Probably it would be one among the few times when a government was supported by both the Left and the Right in any nation). This ensured the unleashing of the Mandal-Mandir politics. What do you or the Left wish to say about that? Or was that just mere opportunism? 2) The Left has joined forces this time with parties which were a party to NDA earlier. And what's more they have joined forces even with corrupt individuals as well. What can one say about Left's association with Mayawati for that matter? What about Jayalalitha, someone whose stand is more in resonance with the BJP rather than the Left? And the Left has joined forces with Chandrababu Naidu and the TRS, which is even more interesting. The Left in AP believes that Telengana should not be formed; the TRS and even now the TDP believe it should be formed. How did they align then? And Naidu was a part of the NDA govt, and even one of the mascots of 'India Shining' (which failed most miserably), what was the reason to join him then? After all, he (Naidu) was also with BJP when Godhra and post-Godhra incidents took place, for then the goodies from Centre were more important for him rather than people getting butchered in Gujarat. 3) The Left joins the BJD in Orissa, where just a few months back, the BJD MP Tathagat Satapathy, on a TV show, was ridiculing Christian organizations for conversions through allurement. And the BJP stand was supported by him. So the BJD a few days back was communal, and now it is secular. Does the Left have the sole right to decide who is communal or secular, or are there some standards to define who is communal or secular? 4) The Left can be very sensible, depending on which Left one talks about. Is Buddhadev Bhattacharya with his policies the Left, or are Gurudas Dasgupta-A.B.Bardhan-Sitaram Yechury-D. Raja-Prakash Karat (The Famous Five) the Left? The policies which the Left opposes in Delhi, are favored by it in Kolkata. The Left which organizes protest movements in other states against forced land acquisition, resorted to it in Nandigram and Singur. Therefore, please clear the confusion regarding who is the Left to begin with. 5) Here people have talked about the Left's so-called secularism. I am relating two incidents here, which probably you could also talk about. The Left has joined with Madani in Kerala, who is allegedly a terrorist, to finish off the Muslim League (one of the constituents of the UDF in Kerala of which Congress is the dominant partner), and Madani is already regarded as a fundamentalist. Directives have been sent by the Kerala Police to central intelligence agencies to keep a close watch on Madani and his family and party. And yet, the Left has aligned with him. This will only promote Muslim fundamentalism, as it may encourage the Muslim League to also indulge in the same and thereby create problems which could assume communal character. The Left in Bengal also didn't allow Taslima Nasreen to stay there. Why? Some organizations claiming to speak for Muslims, created problems, and our Bengal govt. was bulldozed into submission. What a great going! Why? Isn't freedom of speech a right thing to pursue? What does the Left have to say about these incidents, and what do you have to say about this? 6) Finally about corruption. Pinarayi Vijayan, the Kerala CPI (M) former minister, has been accused of corruption in the power scam regarding a Canada company, and no less than the CBI has asked for permission to prosecute him. His govt is sitting on the permission and doing nothing, while he has joined with Madani. What should we conclude from that? I am against right-wing politics certainly, but this too can't be ignored. Regards Rakesh From kmvenuannur at gmail.com Sun Apr 19 12:29:41 2009 From: kmvenuannur at gmail.com (Venugopalan K M) Date: Sun, 19 Apr 2009 12:29:41 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Varun tortured in the jail, detention of vendetta politics. In-Reply-To: <61164a90904172324v3bd70018v8bfbd3055f3fa06e@mail.gmail.com> References: <61164a90904172324v3bd70018v8bfbd3055f3fa06e@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <1f9180970904182359kbc6e94av210b6974b4831a3@mail.gmail.com> Mr Rajen, You seem to speak true to your conscience..but may I ask you what authority you have to speak 'on behalf ' of people who opt for Christianity or whatever religion, when it comes to tribals and adivasis?Do you propose to suggest that the advivasis and tribals are people without any right to exercise free wills? What kind of criticism is that when you allege that nuns of kerala drive sensual pleasure besides monetary gains by engaging in proselytizing. What is your locus standi here? If you truly respect the Constitution, please try to acknowledge that the nuns have their constitutional right to propagate their faith as well as the tribals and adivasis do have theirs to convert. But you simply do not have the right to stop by force,though you can express your displeasure against proselytizing. Instead, you would do better to ponder over why these poor people damn the 'Hindu'-linked identity of untouchables ,panchamas, rakshasas, asuras, which only gives them perpetualized penury and susceptibility to horrendous forms of institutionalized atrocities. Lastly, what is that you stand to loose,if at all these nuns do enjoy sensual pleasures? I'm very happy to see this kind of hate speech in your posts not because I like its content,but because it betrays one's true colours, and people can always see through it...!.. Still, you don't have any formal disagreement with the idea of human rights, freedom of conscience, democracy and such finer aspects of civility of mind..you would even object someone treating you as an apologist of Godse for that reason, and that's great about you, if I'm permitted to say. Perhaps that's the only reason why we talk to each other. But you seem to deny any issue of human rights existing there in Gujarat and you don't find a case of human rights violation there in Orissa, when christians are raped and killed for their alleged acts of proselytizing/conversion. Your idea of human rights is punctuated with sort of right to impunity and right to propagate hatred and violence against christians,muslims ,adivasis,dalits and women of each tribe including that of yours! Best wishes, Venu. On Sat, Apr 18, 2009 at 11:54 AM, Rajen Uppinangadi wrote: > Dear All, > > It is amusing to see the human rights activists, that too senior ones > rushing to sabarmathi jail to see if the human rights are violated of bomb > blasts accused, because they belong to a particular faith, and the amusing > comments and counters in the list for another person who was detained in NSA > for "alleged" remarks that he would be defender of another community against > traitors of the nation, even self defence in case of attack and rape is not > possible for the community if numerical strength is higher in society, they > have to "tolerate" the insults.? > >  As to the human rights committee and its "senior" activists, it can be seen > that one John Dayal, is the clergy of evangelists, rolling in foreign funds > for "uplifting " of the poor souls in poor regions of India with priests and > nuns of seminaries from Kerala who being unemployed, find the jobs of god's > work quite pleasurable with lots of sensuous pleasure factored in., along > with good pay and incentives for harvesting the souls of tribals and poor > pagans. >  As to accused in jails, who misbehave, who indulge in violence over > trivial matters because they have support of "activists" who are again > creation for vote bank politics is the real tragedy in democracy as these > human right activists are more concerned of rights of inhumans in society > than the rights of victims of their inhuman acts. > >  Democracy where sections get extra governance at the cost of discrimination > to other sections, is not good governance. This extra governance is by and > large due to the vote banks, because of the faith. Such a shame, and as to > vasectomies, and varun,   Anupam has to remember that the coersion in the > emergency days led to the defeat of the party and ballot answered the brute > force in most humble and non violent manner. > > Also, if ones parents or father is deviant it does not necessarily follow > that son is also deviant. To say that he will be defending his community > against barbaric acts of fanatics is not an issue that indian media > overhyped at the time of elections, and media has set the agenda for the > parties and hate is the media game for awards and rewards.That  a  nation > with one billion people should hear and watch the discussion about an > "honest" prime minister and a prime minister in waiting talk of weak and > strong , which are again relative subjective terms , is national waste of > energy, instead, if only these weak PM and strong PM in waiting used their > energies to enlighten the voters with what would be issues of good > governance in the nation, it would greatly faciltate better understanding of > what type of leadership the nation is going to get. > > Regards, > > Rajen. > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with subscribe in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> -- http://venukm.blogspot.com/ From sub_sengupta at yahoo.co.in Sun Apr 19 11:34:58 2009 From: sub_sengupta at yahoo.co.in (subhrodip sengupta) Date: Sun, 19 Apr 2009 11:34:58 +0530 (IST) Subject: [Reader-list] an interesting excersice I NEED COMMENTS Message-ID: <262320.89903.qm@web94707.mail.in2.yahoo.com> Just a correction double negation and negation are different assumptions violating either will give essentially same results one may also replace countrapositive law, which would be better explanation. Then different results can be obtained. Sorry, what i meant was probably under same circumstances, i use mobile at times, But i was wrong. ________________________________ From: subhrodip sengupta To: "reader-list at sarai.net" Sent: Sunday, 19 April, 2009 11:13:30 AM Subject: an interesting excersice I NEED COMMENTS Try proving the statement i made that i do not exist doesnt conflict into my existance. Either tilopa's mahamudra tantra or 1st leson of logic and proof system will help u. When is negation violated double negation will be provin false things then. BIPINJI PLz comment.       Connect with friends all over the world. Get Yahoo! India Messenger at http://in.messenger.yahoo.com/?wm=n/ Add more friends to your messenger and enjoy! Go to http://messenger.yahoo.com/invite/ From kmvenuannur at gmail.com Sun Apr 19 12:59:33 2009 From: kmvenuannur at gmail.com (Venugopalan K M) Date: Sun, 19 Apr 2009 12:59:33 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Varun and vendetta of hate politics. In-Reply-To: References: <61164a90904172339m46149e6y4e1af3a8a2a1c77d@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <1f9180970904190029p5e408bd3u54856323cf3044fc@mail.gmail.com> Rath Yathra ,according to the press reports of those days was almost accompanied by hordes everywhere with these calls to kill: 1. Babar ke awlado, bhago pakistan ya khabaristan ( means, descendants of Babar, run away to Pakistan or get killed) 2. Hindustan meim rehna hoga to Ram nam kahna hoga.( If you like to live in India, you have to pray to Ram) Can anybody here say that these slogans chanted by the hordes were not designed to incite masses to kill, maim and loot Muslims? On Sat, Apr 18, 2009 at 12:31 PM, Rakesh Iyer wrote: > Dear Rajen > > You are probably mistaken on many issues here to begin with. In states like > Gujarat and Rajasthan, as soon as Advani left with his Rath, there were > riots. Rajasthan had riots at many places for the first time, and many were > stunned with the savagery witnessed during these riots. Moreover, in > Gujarat, prior to 1992, even during riots, women and children were never > attacked. But Advani's Rath Yatra and the combination of lumpen elements and > Sangh Parivar cadre ensured total chaos and destruction and even rapes on > women on a scale never witnessed. > > Lalu arrested Advani after quite a long time from the time yatra sarted. And > while there were riots after this, there were riots and breakdown of law and > order even prior to this arrest. > > As for unity of Hindus, I couldnt' care less. What has this unity achieved. > It's a unity forged by the Brahman-Bania combine in the BJP to satisfy their > own hunger for power. Has this unity actually helped the Dalits and tribals > improve their social and economic standing? No. Not even in Gujarat, where > tribals and Dalits constitute a significant portion of the population, and > they have been misled into the Hindutva regime. I would term that > brainwashing, as much as Mao did in China as well. > > Anyway, when did tribals become Hindus is anybody's guess. Tribals never > asked to be made Hindus. As for Dalits, they were never made to feel like > one. They were never allowed to enter temples since a pretty long time, and > this practice still continues even now. And what the BJP and Sangh Parivar > has done is only ensured division of people for opportunistic gains, like > the Left too has done (although they do try to improve the life of the > downtrodden and the poor upto a limited extent.) > > I had said it once, I will say it once again: 'Taakat logon ko jodne se > badhti hai, unhein khilaaf karne se nahi (quote: Amitabh Bachchan in > Sarkar)' . If the BJP's aim is to make India a superpower (I dont' feel we > should become one, but for now forget it), then we are not going to become a > superpower by targetting our own minorities. Each time we do so as in > Gujarat 2002, the world powers will ask us questions which we would never be > able to answer. And one important source of power according to Western > conceptions in today's world, is the extent of freedom people in a nation > have. And that freedom is reducing everyday, thanks to the BJP. > > Now you decide, if you want India to be a superpower, you want to vote for > it, or against it. Choice is yours. > > Regards > > Rakesh > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with subscribe in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> -- http://venukm.blogspot.com/ From c.anupam at gmail.com Sun Apr 19 13:40:05 2009 From: c.anupam at gmail.com (anupam chakravartty) Date: Sun, 19 Apr 2009 13:40:05 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] . Re: The Communist Conspiracy ! In-Reply-To: References: <98f331e00904182310r6a13342ckfc79b1b8f4fd6225@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <341380d00904190110v12faa2d7p1045c41f4fde07d5@mail.gmail.com> Dear Rakesh, By stating the political gambles made by left on various occasions it only shows that there is a complete disconnect between what the leftist idealogues have to say and what they have been really doing in India. However, my question to both of you, Rakesh and Prakash or anybody else, who wants to join ( i am sure it was asked several times before this): why is there such a disconnect especially in left wing politics? i have heard several discussions about this disconnect. some of the leftists have said that to have firm grasp of the political climate in the state, one must engage with politicians of seperate ideology, so that there is enrichment in one's thoughts. however, in principle, left wing's arguments have a rigid exterior, while the interior is as malleable -- and many occassions, the leftist argument (mostly the trotskyian kinds) skips major issues by saying that it is a part of the gradual process of change. it is indeed a very positive outlook but you cannot so cheerful if you are forming a government with someone who will uproot your ideology at just one go. also, i wanted to point out, i have heard many people questioning the left say in a situation like this: when a leftist leader is seen with an american or riding a mercedes or making foreign trips. while at the same time, a lot of people cite a certain political leader's humble lifestyle, often saying that "look he is the real leftist". i dont know if you all have noticed such statements from people, but i have and i find it extremely ridiculous. i mean look at your expectations from a political leader of certain ideology while at the same time, you do not mind another set of politicians being super extravagant because they do not have idealogical bearings. -regards anupam On 4/19/09, Rakesh Iyer wrote: > > Dear Prakash jee > > If this is what you wish to put up, let me ask a few questions here too: > > 1) The Left was a part of the V.P.Singh govt, supporting it from outside, > which ironically was also supported by the BJP from outside. (Probably it > would be one among the few times when a government was supported by both > the > Left and the Right in any nation). This ensured the unleashing of the > Mandal-Mandir politics. What do you or the Left wish to say about that? Or > was that just mere opportunism? > > 2) The Left has joined forces this time with parties which were a party to > NDA earlier. And what's more they have joined forces even with corrupt > individuals as well. What can one say about Left's association with > Mayawati > for that matter? What about Jayalalitha, someone whose stand is more in > resonance with the BJP rather than the Left? > > And the Left has joined forces with Chandrababu Naidu and the TRS, which is > even more interesting. The Left in AP believes that Telengana should not be > formed; the TRS and even now the TDP believe it should be formed. How did > they align then? And Naidu was a part of the NDA govt, and even one of the > mascots of 'India Shining' (which failed most miserably), what was the > reason to join him then? After all, he (Naidu) was also with BJP when > Godhra > and post-Godhra incidents took place, for then the goodies from Centre were > more important for him rather than people getting butchered in Gujarat. > > 3) The Left joins the BJD in Orissa, where just a few months back, the BJD > MP Tathagat Satapathy, on a TV show, was ridiculing Christian organizations > for conversions through allurement. And the BJP stand was supported by him. > So the BJD a few days back was communal, and now it is secular. Does the > Left have the sole right to decide who is communal or secular, or are there > some standards to define who is communal or secular? > > 4) The Left can be very sensible, depending on which Left one talks about. > Is Buddhadev Bhattacharya with his policies the Left, or are Gurudas > Dasgupta-A.B.Bardhan-Sitaram Yechury-D. Raja-Prakash Karat (The Famous > Five) > the Left? The policies which the Left opposes in Delhi, are favored by it > in > Kolkata. The Left which organizes protest movements in other states against > forced land acquisition, resorted to it in Nandigram and Singur. > > Therefore, please clear the confusion regarding who is the Left to begin > with. > > 5) Here people have talked about the Left's so-called secularism. I am > relating two incidents here, which probably you could also talk about. > > The Left has joined with Madani in Kerala, who is allegedly a terrorist, to > finish off the Muslim League (one of the constituents of the UDF in Kerala > of which Congress is the dominant partner), and Madani is already regarded > as a fundamentalist. Directives have been sent by the Kerala Police to > central intelligence agencies to keep a close watch on Madani and his > family > and party. And yet, the Left has aligned with him. This will only promote > Muslim fundamentalism, as it may encourage the Muslim League to also > indulge > in the same and thereby create problems which could assume communal > character. > > The Left in Bengal also didn't allow Taslima Nasreen to stay there. Why? > Some organizations claiming to speak for Muslims, created problems, and our > Bengal govt. was bulldozed into submission. What a great going! Why? Isn't > freedom of speech a right thing to pursue? > > What does the Left have to say about these incidents, and what do you have > to say about this? > > 6) Finally about corruption. Pinarayi Vijayan, the Kerala CPI (M) former > minister, has been accused of corruption in the power scam regarding a > Canada company, and no less than the CBI has asked for permission to > prosecute him. His govt is sitting on the permission and doing nothing, > while he has joined with Madani. What should we conclude from that? > > I am against right-wing politics certainly, but this too can't be ignored. > > Regards > > Rakesh > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > subscribe in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> From pkray11 at gmail.com Sun Apr 19 14:38:53 2009 From: pkray11 at gmail.com (prakash ray) Date: Sun, 19 Apr 2009 14:38:53 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] The Communist Conspiracy ! Message-ID: <98f331e00904190208j343c3f7eif12c3f6ee99af9e4@mail.gmail.com> Dear Rakesh Ji, Let me first congrutulate you for your cent percent political correctedness. I thank you also for the questions you have asked. I try to reply them. 1) The V.P.Singh govt was formed after the congress govt led by Mr Rajiv Gandhi was voted out. The popular mandate was to form a non-Congress government. As you know the movement against the Rajiv Gandhi govt was led by Mr V P Singh, a former congressman and senior cabinet minister in the previous govt. So, he was the only choice for the top job. The Left Front ensured that BJP should not be part of the govt. The Front also ensured that the govt initiate pro-people policies. If you have even little awareness, the recomendations of the B P Mandal Commission for reservations of OBCs in jobs was implemented by the V P Singh govt. You must know that ABVP and NSUI supporters violently protested this across the country. The student who was the first to try to self-immolate was visited by Mr Advani in AIIMS and was elected as the president of DUSU unopposed as an NSUI candidate. Mr Advani's bloody Rath-yatra was stopped in Bihar and he was arrested. soonafter, the BJP decided to withdraw support but the Left stood strongly with V P Singh. The Congress broke the Janata Dal and made Mr Chandrashekhar the PM. However, soon they withdraw support and it collapsed. The Left continue to ally with the secularists like Laloo and Mulayam to contain the communal politics of the RSS-BJP. You must know that period was the most dangerous period for the secular India. Moreover, during this period, an ultra-Left student organisation AISA was formed as the student wing of CPI-ML-Liberation which raised slogans of 'No Mandal, No Kamandal, Inqalab Zindabad' and swept the students union polls in many campuse in the northern part of the country. For its political bankruptcy and opportunism, it soon lost its glory and the ABVP replaced it in these campuses. I hope you understand the context of the support to the VP Singh govt. The importance of that govt lies in the fact that it broke the tradition of Congress's political hegemony and new political formations/parties earned importance. If you still want to call it a political opportunism, I have nothing more to say on this. The way you have ridiculed the Mandal Report and blamed the Left for the rise of the Kamandal politics, you need to introspect. Was it wrong to implement the Report? Would it have been correct to let the Congress rule the country? What should you have done if you were a member of Lok Sabha at that time? 2) The Left is working towards the formation of a non-Congress and non-BJP front. The Left had supported the UPA govt led by the Congress respecting the mandate for a secular govt. But, the Congress betrayed the commitment articulated in the CMP. Despite having differences and apprehensions, the Left is trying to build an alliance on the broader agenda of secularism, democracy, pro-people policies, anti-imperialism. You must note the fact that many parties are joining hands with the Left leaving the NDA and the UPA. Moreover, the Congress, Laloo and Mulayam are praising the Left for its positive role. Also, CPI-ML-Liberation has joined forces this time with the Left in Bihar. Mind you, in politics or in life, one has to make alliances. Life cannot be run only by irresponsible cynicism or anarchism. 3) The BJD realised its blunders and left the BJP. Let me tell you little more that the Left and the BJD have joined hands with the NCP in Orissa to defeate the Congress and the BJP. You should not be surprised if you learn that JD-U also joins the Left soon after the general elections. 4) As far as the Bengal govt is concerned, there is a great need to generate jobs. This is also true for the entire country. I share the concern regarding the mode of development adopted by various parties including the Left. The Left cannot and must not implement policies/programmes which can go against the people. The events in Nandigram and Singur were disturbing and the Left govt must learn a lesson. However, the situation was made worse by the TMC-Maoists combine aided by the Congress and the BJP. The need of the hour is to formulate a comprehensive developmental policy keeping all aspects in consideration. b 5) The Left does not have any alliance with Madani in Kerala. However, even in you opinion, he is 'allegedly' a terrorist. If a group extend supports to the Left, what it can do. As far as the central agencies are concerned, they are themselves communal in character and also they have only registered failures as far as terrorism is concerned. The Big Boss of these agencies, Nation Security Advisor, takes more interest in deals and lobbying. Taslima Nasreen was never ousted. The govt merely advised her against staying in Kolkata at that time since some groups had objected. It was a momentary step. You must know that after that episode, Ms Nasreen has visited Kolkata several times. 6) Com Pinarayi Vijayan has never been accused of corruption nor indicted in any report. The enquiry is still on. Till it is over, stop yourself from acting as a judge. PKR From c.anupam at gmail.com Sun Apr 19 15:01:28 2009 From: c.anupam at gmail.com (anupam chakravartty) Date: Sun, 19 Apr 2009 15:01:28 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] The Communist Conspiracy ! In-Reply-To: <98f331e00904190208j343c3f7eif12c3f6ee99af9e4@mail.gmail.com> References: <98f331e00904190208j343c3f7eif12c3f6ee99af9e4@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <341380d00904190231p6486c45i248505f109f51ad2@mail.gmail.com> Mr Ray, It looks a little odd, even hypocritical to have quoted courageous statements of Irfan Habib and Patnaik against communalisation, rampant capitalism, and at the same time, advising a member here to stop enquiring about Vijayan by merely saying that the matter is still pending in the courts. Also a clarification is needed here: was this a politically motivated investigation against Vijayan because of his rivalry against Cheif Minister V.S. Achutanandan? thanks anupam On 4/19/09, prakash ray wrote: > > Dear Rakesh Ji, > > Let me first congrutulate you for your cent percent political > correctedness. > I thank you also for the questions you have asked. I try to reply them. > > 1) The V.P.Singh govt was formed after the congress govt led by Mr Rajiv > Gandhi was voted out. The popular mandate was to form a non-Congress > government. As you know the movement against the Rajiv Gandhi govt was led > by Mr V P Singh, a former congressman and senior cabinet minister in the > previous govt. So, he was the only choice for the top job. The Left Front > ensured that BJP should not be part of the govt. The Front also ensured > that > the govt initiate pro-people policies. If you have even little awareness, > the recomendations of the B P Mandal Commission for reservations of OBCs in > jobs was implemented by the V P Singh govt. You must know that ABVP and > NSUI > supporters violently protested this across the country. The student who was > the first to try to self-immolate was visited by Mr Advani in AIIMS and was > elected as the president of DUSU unopposed as an NSUI candidate. Mr > Advani's > bloody Rath-yatra was stopped in Bihar and he was arrested. soonafter, the > BJP decided to withdraw support but the Left stood strongly with V P Singh. > The Congress broke the Janata Dal and made Mr Chandrashekhar the PM. > However, soon they withdraw support and it collapsed. The Left continue to > ally with the secularists like Laloo and Mulayam to contain the communal > politics of the RSS-BJP. You must know that period was the most dangerous > period for the secular India. Moreover, during this period, an ultra-Left > student organisation AISA was formed as the student wing of > CPI-ML-Liberation which raised slogans of 'No Mandal, No Kamandal, Inqalab > Zindabad' and swept the students union polls in many campuse in the > northern > part of the country. For its political bankruptcy and opportunism, it soon > lost its glory and the ABVP replaced it in these campuses. > > I hope you understand the context of the support to the VP Singh govt. The > importance of that govt lies in the fact that it broke the tradition of > Congress's political hegemony and new political formations/parties earned > importance. If you still want to call it a political opportunism, I have > nothing more to say on this. > > The way you have ridiculed the Mandal Report and blamed the Left for the > rise of the Kamandal politics, you need to introspect. Was it wrong to > implement the Report? Would it have been correct to let the Congress rule > the country? What should you have done if you were a member of Lok Sabha at > that time? > > 2) The Left is working towards the formation of a non-Congress and non-BJP > front. The Left had supported the UPA govt led by the Congress respecting > the mandate for a secular govt. But, the Congress betrayed the commitment > articulated in the CMP. Despite having differences and apprehensions, the > Left is trying to build an alliance on the broader agenda of secularism, > democracy, pro-people policies, anti-imperialism. You must note the fact > that many parties are joining hands with the Left leaving the NDA and the > UPA. Moreover, the Congress, Laloo and Mulayam are praising the Left for > its > positive role. Also, CPI-ML-Liberation has joined forces this time with the > Left in Bihar. Mind you, in politics or in life, one has to make alliances. > Life cannot be run only by irresponsible cynicism or anarchism. > > 3) The BJD realised its blunders and left the BJP. Let me tell you little > more that the Left and the BJD have joined hands with the NCP in Orissa to > defeate the Congress and the BJP. You should not be surprised if you learn > that JD-U also joins the Left soon after the general elections. > > 4) As far as the Bengal govt is concerned, there is a great need to > generate > jobs. This is also true for the entire country. I share the concern > regarding the mode of development adopted by various parties including the > Left. The Left cannot and must not implement policies/programmes which can > go against the people. The events in Nandigram and Singur were disturbing > and the Left govt must learn a lesson. However, the situation was made > worse > by the TMC-Maoists combine aided by the Congress and the BJP. The need of > the hour is to formulate a comprehensive developmental policy keeping all > aspects in consideration. b > > 5) The Left does not have any alliance with Madani in Kerala. However, even > in you opinion, he is 'allegedly' a terrorist. If a group extend supports > to > the Left, what it can do. As far as the central agencies are concerned, > they > are themselves communal in character and also they have only registered > failures as far as terrorism is concerned. The Big Boss of these agencies, > Nation Security Advisor, takes more interest in deals and lobbying. > > Taslima Nasreen was never ousted. The govt merely advised her against > staying in Kolkata at that time since some groups had objected. It was a > momentary step. You must know that after that episode, Ms Nasreen has > visited Kolkata several times. > > 6) Com Pinarayi Vijayan has never been accused of corruption nor indicted > in > any report. The enquiry is still on. Till it is over, stop yourself from > acting as a judge. > > PKR > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > subscribe in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> From patrice at xs4all.nl Sun Apr 19 15:06:44 2009 From: patrice at xs4all.nl (Patrice Riemens) Date: Sun, 19 Apr 2009 11:36:44 +0200 Subject: [Reader-list] Can't we shut Reader-List temporarily until polls are over In-Reply-To: <459850.92226.qm@web31701.mail.mud.yahoo.com> References: <459850.92226.qm@web31701.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <20090419093644.GB59510@xs4all.nl> On Sat, Apr 18, 2009 at 11:35:22PM -0700, francesca recchia wrote: > Dear all > > As a non-Indian who tries to follow and contribute to the reading list, the idea of suspending it during the election time sounds quite unfortunate. > I guess this can be a challenge to the general sense of responsibility and respect towards the others in how we write what we write. > > This is definitely not the site for campaigning but should be the place for challenging and exchanging each other's ideas. > > There is a quotation from Julio Cortazar that I love and might be inspiring in this debate: > I write by default and dislocation, and since I write out of an > interstice I always invite others to discover one of their own and to > see for themselves the garden where the trees bear fruits that turn out > to be precious stones. The monster remains the same. > > Hugs > francesca > > francesca recchia > kiccovich at yahoo.com Though I do not and by far read all the SRL postings, I tend to agree with Francesca, was it only because we, the firangis, are somewhat in awe to see how elections and the democratic process are taken so seriously and are so fiercely (or ferociously) discussed in india compared to the lethargy and desilusionments prevailing in our parts ("que se vayan todos!") Chewers from just back in EU, patrizio and Diiiinooos! From rakesh.rnbdj at gmail.com Sun Apr 19 15:31:37 2009 From: rakesh.rnbdj at gmail.com (Rakesh Iyer) Date: Sun, 19 Apr 2009 15:31:37 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] The Communist Conspiracy ! In-Reply-To: <98f331e00904190208j343c3f7eif12c3f6ee99af9e4@mail.gmail.com> References: <98f331e00904190208j343c3f7eif12c3f6ee99af9e4@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: Dear Prakash jee You have raised certain important issues, and I would like to answer them below: 1) We are talking about Left here, so I wont' raise arguments about reservation, either for or against. The OBC reservation has been more linked with VP Singh rather than the Left. I don't have issues with reservation as a way to solve problems, though there are other issues case by case. So I rest the case there. As for supporting it, the VP Singh govt also ensured that the country continued on the path to being communalized under the Rath Yatra, thanks to its support of the BJP. Not until Lalu Yadav stopped the Yatra, did anybody do anything about it. And the Left couldn't pressurize the govt. to do anything about it. They should have withdrawn then itself if this was what happening as the Yatra was going on. I have no issues with implementing the Mandal report (though with modifications). As for Congress, I support policies, not parties. 2) By stating the obvious, you have already said that Left has to play a game of political opportunism to be in contention for power at the Centre. Whatever you may point out, the AIADMK, the BSP, or the BJD are parties which are authoritarian and undemocratic. Moreover, all have had fair share of corruption or wrong policies of industrialization being followed at the ground level. Till last 6 months, the Left was fighting BJD on the issue of land being snatched away from tribals, now they are in alliance. What great hobnobbing? If you wish to justify this by stating this is a politically expedient move, for me it's still wrong, though I can sympathise with the Left for it being inevitable. 3) Alliances if made are not wrong. But alliances should not be based on political opportunism. Otherwise there is no point in such alliances at all. Do the BSP, AIADMK or even the BJD have a proper conception of development and what they stand for? Do they even have an idea about the kind of policies to be introduced, and have discussions on such issues? Do they even have inner-party democracy? Forget all this, is there any assurance that AIADMK or BSP would stay back with the Left post elections? Even the Left would not have the answer to that. And if it thinks it has answers, let me remind people here that after 2001 elections of assembly in Tamil Nadu, where Jayalalitha was in alliance with Left and Congress, on gaining an absolute majority of her own, she threw away all her allies and instead supported BJP's stand in the assembly on many issues. Whom are you fooling by creating such alliances with corrupt individuals? 4) If the Bengal govt. would have conducted a referendum in Nandigram and Singur before giving land, among all the stakeholders involved, after conducting proper discussions between them and the Tatas, and if then the referendum would have approved transfer of the land, would not that have introduced a new model of development in West Bengal and India? I am happy you accept at least that the Left's policy was flawed. But my issue is still not addressed completely here. Buddhadev approves FDI in certain sectors and even said once that nuclear energy is fine. But the Left opposed both the nuclear deal and even FDI in those same sectors Buddhadev supports. Then which is the true Left? 5) For your point with Madani, here is the story from Outlook: *Even with all this, the "bad flavour" of the month, by all accounts, is Pinarayi Vijayan. His cosying up to the People’s Democratic Party (PDP) of Abdul Nasser Madani, linked to the 1998 Coimbatore blasts, has embarrassed many of his comrades. Pinarayi justifies it with the ends-justify-the-means line, saying the PDP’s unsolicited, unconditional support could help end the Muslim League’s sway. * *Not many are convinced. Critic and columnist Prof Sukumar Azhikode, a friend of Pinarayi’s, has this to say: "It’s sickening. It hurts one’s eyes to se them—Vijayan and Madani—together." Tactically, CM V.S. Achuthanandan disapproved of the open dalliance with the Muslim cleric, whose family is on the terror radar. In fact, Director-General of Prosecution V.G. Govindan Nair’s advisory to the home department has asked that serious note be taken of the allegations against the Madani family following the high court’s intervention. * *The LDF’s other constituents aren’t happy either. CPI general secretary A.B. Bardhan has called the PDP "communal". RSP general secretary T.J. Chandrachoodan described the party as "worse than the Muslim League". It was left to CPI(M) politburo member S. Ramachandran Pillai to raise a technical argument in Pinarayi’s favour, saying the party had not yet taken a stand on the PDP unlike on the League, which "is communal". * What* *you are raising here is a technical argument that Madani has come and supported the Communists. At the least, the party could have denounced him and said they dont' require his support. Even now, they haven't said so. What they do say is that they haven't taken a stand on the issue. 6) For your point about the case against Pinarayi Vijayan, here is further more from Outlook: *As power minister in 1996-98, flouting established procedure, he presided over the award of a Rs 390-crore contract to Canadian engineering firm SNC Lavalin for the repair and modernisation of three hydel plants. The CAG had slammed the contract. The CBI, which probed the deal on the HC’s orders, has arraigned Pinarayi as the 9th accused. Its request for sanction to prosecute him is pending with the governor, who in turn is awaiting the state cabinet’s advice. * The link for Outlook story is: http://outlookindia.com/fullprint.asp?choice=2&fodname=20090427&fname=Kerala&sid=1 So what can I say? The Left is as politically opportunistic as the BJP has been, except that the BJP knows it is focussed on the larger goal of creating Hindu nation more than the Left in terms of improving conditions for the people. Regards Rakesh From rajen882uppinangadi at gmail.com Sun Apr 19 15:48:36 2009 From: rajen882uppinangadi at gmail.com (Rajen Uppinangadi) Date: Sun, 19 Apr 2009 15:48:36 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Varun tortured in the jail, detention of vendetta politics. In-Reply-To: <1f9180970904182359kbc6e94av210b6974b4831a3@mail.gmail.com> References: <61164a90904172324v3bd70018v8bfbd3055f3fa06e@mail.gmail.com> <1f9180970904182359kbc6e94av210b6974b4831a3@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <61164a90904190318h34c335a0u53608782c360d256@mail.gmail.com> Hi, Venu, thanks for the sermons about the thoughts that I expressed which are true to best of my knowledge, you have your perceptions, I do not wish to contradict your perceptions, as I know that you have special love for the malyalis , but for me religion or faith is personal, and bad governance has made things difficult for the citizens, be they, tribals, adivasis or others, the good governance if it is in place, the faith remains where it is, in private domain, a hungry stomach, neglected by the system of governance, lack of opportunities for the neglected, make them go for alms distributed in the name of the only saviour, thus increasing numerical strength of the voters, thus very democratic rule is undermined as they vote not for the govrnance but for the "help" given which should have come from good governance, not from any faith or its propaganda. As to violence, it is to be noted with regret that violence begets more of it, whether in the name of faith or politics, and the goons who killed a 82 year old swami were exactly doing that so that they could polarise the votes in kandhamal, just as any other party in the game of garnering votes. When Singur and Nandigram happened with rapes and killings, again it was the same game of polarsing the votes by the athiest sections of the society, for their plank of development on the dead bodies of poor tillers.The same is the instance of Gujarath, that 59 bodies were burnt alive in a coach is sure shot for more violence, and I do not justify violence from anyone as the govrrnance has failed totally to act in time, thus giving rise , rather outsourcing the delivery of justice to media and NGOs. What the system of governance should have been done is done by the deviant individuals of the society from different faiths, which is very violation of our constitution, hope you think over these thoughts. It is known fact that young generation is looking for jobs, and gainful employments, bettering their life skills so that they can build a future for themselvs and the next generation, but when reservation is based on caste and faiths, instead of economic and need based criteria, we see the lopsided development of few sections of society, discrimination in governance becomes the order, thus the issues of frustrated individuals becomes movements like naxalism, aggrieved working class becomes a trade union, thus all reflect the lack of will to have good governance in society. In democratic rule if discrimination is the order of the system, then the elements of discrimination are faith, caste and region and religions. Thus you can see the gaining power of clergies, in all faiths exhorting the followers to vote to those whom they consider as deliverer of good, again defeating the democracy. Regards, Rajen. On Sun, Apr 19, 2009 at 12:29 PM, Venugopalan K M wrote: > Mr Rajen, You seem to speak true to your conscience..but may I ask you > what authority you have to speak 'on behalf ' of people who opt for > Christianity or whatever religion, when it comes to tribals and > adivasis?Do you propose to suggest that the advivasis and tribals are > people without any right to exercise free wills? What kind of > criticism is that when you allege that nuns of kerala drive sensual > pleasure besides monetary gains by engaging in proselytizing. What is > your locus standi here? If you truly respect the Constitution, please > try to acknowledge that the nuns have their constitutional right to > propagate their faith as well as the tribals and adivasis do have > theirs to convert. But you simply do not have the right to stop by > force,though you can express your displeasure against proselytizing. > Instead, you would do better to ponder over why these poor people damn > the 'Hindu'-linked identity of untouchables ,panchamas, rakshasas, > asuras, which only gives them perpetualized penury and susceptibility > to horrendous forms of institutionalized atrocities. > Lastly, what is that you stand to loose,if at all these nuns do enjoy > sensual pleasures? I'm very happy to see this kind of hate speech in > your posts not because I like its content,but because it betrays one's > true colours, and people can always see through it...!.. > Still, you don't have any formal disagreement with the idea of human > rights, freedom of conscience, democracy and such finer aspects of > civility of mind..you would even object someone treating you as an > apologist of Godse for that reason, and that's great about you, if I'm > permitted to say. Perhaps that's the only reason why we talk to each > other. > But you seem to deny any issue of human rights existing there in > Gujarat and you don't find a case of human rights violation there in > Orissa, when christians are raped and killed for their alleged acts of > proselytizing/conversion. Your idea of human rights is punctuated with > sort of right to impunity and right to propagate hatred and violence > against christians,muslims ,adivasis,dalits and women of each tribe > including that of yours! > > Best wishes, > Venu. > > > > > On Sat, Apr 18, 2009 at 11:54 AM, Rajen Uppinangadi > wrote: > > Dear All, > > > > It is amusing to see the human rights activists, that too senior ones > > rushing to sabarmathi jail to see if the human rights are violated of > bomb > > blasts accused, because they belong to a particular faith, and the > amusing > > comments and counters in the list for another person who was detained in > NSA > > for "alleged" remarks that he would be defender of another community > against > > traitors of the nation, even self defence in case of attack and rape is > not > > possible for the community if numerical strength is higher in society, > they > > have to "tolerate" the insults.? > > > > As to the human rights committee and its "senior" activists, it can be > seen > > that one John Dayal, is the clergy of evangelists, rolling in foreign > funds > > for "uplifting " of the poor souls in poor regions of India with priests > and > > nuns of seminaries from Kerala who being unemployed, find the jobs of > god's > > work quite pleasurable with lots of sensuous pleasure factored in., along > > with good pay and incentives for harvesting the souls of tribals and poor > > pagans. > > As to accused in jails, who misbehave, who indulge in violence over > > trivial matters because they have support of "activists" who are again > > creation for vote bank politics is the real tragedy in democracy as these > > human right activists are more concerned of rights of inhumans in society > > than the rights of victims of their inhuman acts. > > > > Democracy where sections get extra governance at the cost of > discrimination > > to other sections, is not good governance. This extra governance is by > and > > large due to the vote banks, because of the faith. Such a shame, and as > to > > vasectomies, and varun, Anupam has to remember that the coersion in the > > emergency days led to the defeat of the party and ballot answered the > brute > > force in most humble and non violent manner. > > > > Also, if ones parents or father is deviant it does not necessarily follow > > that son is also deviant. To say that he will be defending his community > > against barbaric acts of fanatics is not an issue that indian media > > overhyped at the time of elections, and media has set the agenda for the > > parties and hate is the media game for awards and rewards.That a nation > > with one billion people should hear and watch the discussion about an > > "honest" prime minister and a prime minister in waiting talk of weak and > > strong , which are again relative subjective terms , is national waste of > > energy, instead, if only these weak PM and strong PM in waiting used > their > > energies to enlighten the voters with what would be issues of good > > governance in the nation, it would greatly faciltate better understanding > of > > what type of leadership the nation is going to get. > > > > Regards, > > > > Rajen. > > _________________________________________ > > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > > Critiques & Collaborations > > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > subscribe in the subject header. > > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> > > > > -- > http://venukm.blogspot.com/ > From kshmendra2005 at yahoo.com Sun Apr 19 16:07:06 2009 From: kshmendra2005 at yahoo.com (Kshmendra Kaul) Date: Sun, 19 Apr 2009 03:37:06 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Reader-list] 'Report based on SIT findings' In-Reply-To: <85a3156a0904181002i7fa2e6p2e67c4e445bdaf2d@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <756023.61048.qm@web57204.mail.re3.yahoo.com> (For whatever it is worth and howsoever it may be interpreted or used/abused by those who have been conversing on this issue)   http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/India/Report-based-on-SIT-findings/articleshow/4407437.cms   'Report based on SIT findings' 16 Apr 2009, 0049 hrs IST My report was based on the SIT report and not any document circulated by the Gujarat government, as suggested by CJP. Whether any section of the media has the report or not is irrelevant as TOI has access to the report. Let me quote from the report. Page 9 of the SIT report on the Gulbarga Society carnage on February 28, 2002, says: ‘‘Insistence of 19 witnesses to take on record their signed statements which according to them were prepared by Smt Teesta Setalvad and advocate Tirmiji’’ — the reference here is to witnesses giving signed computerised statements which were not accepted by the investigating officer (IO) as under Section 161 the officer is required to write the statement of witnesses after interrogating them personally. The SIT report says on page 10, ‘‘All of them had brought with them ready-made statements prepared on computer and requested IO to take them on record. IO explained to them that according to law they had to be questioned and examined and their statements reduced in writing by the IO.’’ It goes on to say, ‘‘On questioning them in respect of the typed statements, all 3 of them stated that the computerised prepared statements were given to them by Smt Teesta Setalvad and advocate Tirmiji and that they had merely signed and initialed on such prepared statements.’’ The report goes on to say that ‘‘there are discrepancies between the prepared statements and statements recorded by the IO. In respect of 6 witnesses, there are contradictory statements relating to the names of the accused they were linking with (the) crime.’’ Page 11 says, when ‘‘questioned about the discrepancies’’, the six witnesses ‘‘stated that they had prepared the statements and not Setalvad and advocate Tirmiji.’’ In other words, the latter witnesses changed their version about who had prepared their signed statements. The report also says (page 8) the allegation about the then Ahmedabad police commissioner C P Pandey visiting Gulbarga Society at 10.30am and assuring police protection to Muslims but not following it up was wrong as ‘‘he was proved to have gone to Sola Civil Hospital to take care of the dead bodies of Sabarmati Express arson victims.’’ The report also cites some instances of police dereliction of duty, such as by senior police inspector K G Erda of Maghani Nagar PS who was found to be ‘‘falsely creating the record’’ and ‘‘allowing the destruction of evidence in order to screen offenders.’’ It also found the pre-SIT IO guilty of ‘‘preparing slipshod inquest reports,’’ etc. In short, my report was based on the actual SIT report. The excerpts from it should prove this beyond doubt. — Dhananjay Mahapatra --- On Sat, 4/18/09, Jhuma Sen wrote: From: Jhuma Sen Subject: [Reader-list] Guj govt's, not an SIT report To: "sarai list" Date: Saturday, April 18, 2009, 10:32 PM I remember stumbling upon some interesting Teesta/NGO bashing in the Reader List a few days ago based on a prima facie ridiculous TOI report. An explanation at last. http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/India/Guj-govts-not-an-SIT-report/articleshow/4407434.cms I find TOI's stand extremely amusing. This may serve as a panacea to many who prefer to live in a state of denial (wishful thinking). Regards Jhuma _________________________________________ reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. Critiques & Collaborations To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with subscribe in the subject header. To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> From rakesh.rnbdj at gmail.com Sun Apr 19 16:15:02 2009 From: rakesh.rnbdj at gmail.com (Rakesh Iyer) Date: Sun, 19 Apr 2009 16:15:02 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] 'Report based on SIT findings' In-Reply-To: <756023.61048.qm@web57204.mail.re3.yahoo.com> References: <85a3156a0904181002i7fa2e6p2e67c4e445bdaf2d@mail.gmail.com> <756023.61048.qm@web57204.mail.re3.yahoo.com> Message-ID: Dear all Going ahead by such reports, I probably believe Mr. R.K.Raghavan himself should come out with the report in public, or the SC should declare an order to make it public. That can be helpful in deciding whether (at least on my side) whether the report actually says it or not. Regards Rakesh From rakesh.rnbdj at gmail.com Sun Apr 19 16:16:13 2009 From: rakesh.rnbdj at gmail.com (Rakesh Iyer) Date: Sun, 19 Apr 2009 16:16:13 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] 'Report based on SIT findings' In-Reply-To: References: <85a3156a0904181002i7fa2e6p2e67c4e445bdaf2d@mail.gmail.com> <756023.61048.qm@web57204.mail.re3.yahoo.com> Message-ID: Dear all It would also be better if the TOI actually makes the report public. Regards Rakesh From c.anupam at gmail.com Sun Apr 19 16:22:23 2009 From: c.anupam at gmail.com (anupam chakravartty) Date: Sun, 19 Apr 2009 16:22:23 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] 'Report based on SIT findings' In-Reply-To: References: <85a3156a0904181002i7fa2e6p2e67c4e445bdaf2d@mail.gmail.com> <756023.61048.qm@web57204.mail.re3.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <341380d00904190352x39a7185au587dadf98889a5b3@mail.gmail.com> The report is yet to come out in Public. the idea of highlighting some of the contents from the report while not looking at the report as whole, so that it can be contexualised is a mistake often made by several media houses. I think we are falling for that same trap. Let the report be made public. On 4/19/09, Rakesh Iyer wrote: > > Dear all > > Going ahead by such reports, I probably believe Mr. R.K.Raghavan himself > should come out with the report in public, or the SC should declare an > order > to make it public. That can be helpful in deciding whether (at least on my > side) whether the report actually says it or not. > > Regards > > Rakesh > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > subscribe in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> From ysaeed7 at yahoo.com Sun Apr 19 16:49:13 2009 From: ysaeed7 at yahoo.com (Yousuf) Date: Sun, 19 Apr 2009 04:19:13 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Reader-list] Can't we shut Reader-List temporarily until polls are over In-Reply-To: <20090419093644.GB59510@xs4all.nl> Message-ID: <436098.96593.qm@web51401.mail.re2.yahoo.com> Its interesting to see that in the cacophony of the election when somebody jokes about closing SRL temporarily, that's also taken seriously. But some of the inane discussions between left and right are getting too much to bear. We know we can't convince anyone on the list to vote for a certain candidate or party. Nor is any single Sarai reader going to go get his/her family and friends to vote for a party because Sarai says its good. And if the "firangis" find these "ferocious" discussions as the reflection of real democracy in India, they haven't seen nothin. Maybe the Indian TV channels could give you a better picture from those remote corners. --- On Sun, 4/19/09, Patrice Riemens wrote: > From: Patrice Riemens > Subject: Re: [Reader-list] Can't we shut Reader-List temporarily until polls are over > To: "francesca recchia" > Cc: reader-list at sarai.net > Date: Sunday, April 19, 2009, 3:06 PM > On Sat, Apr 18, 2009 at 11:35:22PM -0700, francesca recchia > wrote: > > Dear all > > > > As a non-Indian who tries to follow and contribute to > the reading list, the idea of suspending it during the > election time sounds quite unfortunate. > > I guess this can be a challenge to the general sense > of responsibility and respect towards the others in how we > write what we write. > > > > This is definitely not the site for campaigning but > should be the place for challenging and exchanging each > other's ideas. > > > > There is a quotation from Julio Cortazar that I love > and might be inspiring in this debate: > > I write by default and dislocation, and since I write > out of an > > interstice I always invite others to discover one of > their own and to > > see for themselves the garden where the trees bear > fruits that turn out > > to be precious stones. The monster remains the same. > > > > Hugs > > francesca > > > > francesca recchia > > kiccovich at yahoo.com > > > Though I do not and by far read all the SRL postings, I > tend to agree with > Francesca, was it only because we, the firangis, are > somewhat in awe to > see how elections and the democratic process are taken so > seriously and > are so fiercely (or ferociously) discussed in india > compared to the > lethargy and desilusionments prevailing in our parts > ("que se vayan > todos!") > > Chewers from just back in EU, patrizio and Diiiinooos! > > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to > reader-list-request at sarai.net with subscribe in the subject > header. > To unsubscribe: > https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: > <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> From kshmendra2005 at yahoo.com Sun Apr 19 17:10:44 2009 From: kshmendra2005 at yahoo.com (Kshmendra Kaul) Date: Sun, 19 Apr 2009 04:40:44 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Reader-list] Shameful Torture of 23 Muslims Prisoners on March 26-27 In Sabarmati Jail, Ahamedabad: A Report by Human Rights Activists In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <265654.35368.qm@web57207.mail.re3.yahoo.com> Dear Rakesh   My attitude on such matters might be different from yours. I look for bridging divides.   Take any ideological representation in India. There will be enough said about them by enough people to try and convince you that they are scum. Do I accept such  generalisations? No, I do not. There will be counter-arguments and denials and interpretations in equal measure that seek to prove that they are not scum.   What 'your father said' or 'your grandfather said' might be ably used to win an argument but at best it can only win arguments within narrow perspectives that try to interpret the completeness of the present by selective quotings from the past. We see that happening regularly on this List.   Let me give you an analogy. If the precepts and writings and propagation of Islam (from the past) were to be used to make a judgement about Islam for today then there would be a demand (as there is amongst some) that Islam be banned and the Muslim identity erased.   Is that what is required for and will ensure the well-being of India? Not for me as a nationalist.   I would rather question and attack singly every one of the examples of unacceptable speech or action (based in any ideology) that one is faced with from day to day. Not as a confrontation or propaganda but through due processes of Law. The Law alone is peoplespeake for what 'we the people of India' find unacceptable. If there are deficiencies in the Law or in it's application, those must be rectified.   I abhor what I understand Hindutva stands for. But I find it impossible to simply dismiss it because if BJP represents the electoral face of Hindutva, it intrigues me that  people should vote for the BJP.   Are all such people Hindutvavaadis? Are they all communal? Do they all subscribe to (as an example) the Golwalkarian vision as excerpted by you? I do not think so and it was a question I asked on this List that whatever be the judgement on Modi why and with what idea did the people of Gujarat vote him back into power? No one cared to answer that.    Talking about attitudes towards Hindutva extremism, I gave the analogy of Islamic extremism. I will mention a third extremist movement, that of the Naxalites.   It is easy to create compartments into which to shove extremists and then presume that if we lock them up and throw the key away, the crimes associated with them will disappear. They will not, nor will there be an erasure of such identities.   That is why I look for bridging the divides rather than reinforcing them   Kshmendra         --- On Sat, 4/18/09, Rakesh Iyer wrote: From: Rakesh Iyer Subject: Re: [Reader-list] Shameful Torture of 23 Muslims Prisoners on March 26-27 In Sabarmati Jail, Ahamedabad: A Report by Human Rights Activists To: kshmendra2005 at yahoo.com Cc: "sarai-list" , "Venugopalan K M" Date: Saturday, April 18, 2009, 10:01 PM Dear Kshamendra If you want to rate the Modi government on the conceptions of 'Hindutva based governance', it would be better to first know these statements from M.S.Golwalkar about his ideas of what India should be (A Hindu Rashtra indeed) : >From the link: http://www.countercurrents.org/comm-guha281106.htm 1) His ideas are summarised in the book Bunch of Thoughts, which draws upon the lectures he delivered over the years (mostly in Hindi) to RSS shakhas across the country. This identifies the Hindus, and they alone, as the privileged community of India. It disparages democracy as alien to the Hindu ethos and extols the code of Manu, whom Golwalkar salutes as "the first, the greatest, and the wisest lawgiver of mankind". 2) Golwalkar writes that the "hostile elements within the country pose a far greater menace to national security than aggressors from outside". He identifies three major "Internal Threats: I: The Muslims; II: The Christians; III: The Communists". A long chapter impugns the patriotism of these groups, speaking darkly of their "future aggressive designs on our country". 3) Thus, on December 6, 1947, Golwalkar convened a meeting of RSS workers in the town of Govardhan, not far from Delhi. The police report on this meeting says it discussed how to "assassinate the leading persons of the Congress in order to terrorise the public and to get their hold over them". 4) Two days later, Golwalkar addressed a crowd of several thousand volunteers at the Rohtak Road Camp in Delhi. The police reporter in attendance wrote that the RSS leader said that "the Sangh will not rest content until it had finished Pakistan. If anyone stood in our way we will have to finish them too, whether it was Nehru Government or any other Government... " Referring to Muslims, he said that no power on earth could keep them in Hindustan. They should have to quit this country... "If they were made to stay here the responsibility would be the Government's and the Hindu community would not be responsible. Mahatma Gandhi could not mislead them any longer. We have the means whereby [our] opponents could be immediately silenced". 5) Golwalkar himself argued that "in this land Hindus have been the owners, Parsis and Jews the guests, and Muslims and Christians the dacoits". He asked, maliciously: "Then do all these have the same right over the country?" 6) The RSS leader, noted Karaka, "thinks in terms of Hindu India and only Hindu India". >From the link: http://www.sacw.net/DC/CommunalismCollection/ArticlesArchive/Puniyani6March06.html 1)Golwalkar goes on to assert,"From the standpoint sanctioned by the experience of shrewd nations, the non-Hindu people in Hindustan must either adopt the Hindu culture and language, must learn to respect and revere Hindu religion, must entertain no idea but the glorification of Hindu nation i.e. they must not only give up their attitude of intolerance and ingratitude towards this land and its age long traditions, but must also cultivate the positive attitude of love and devotion instead; in one word, they must cease to be foreigners or may stay in the country wholly subordinated to the Hindu nation, claiming nothing, deserving no privileges, for less any preferential treatment, not even the citizen's rights." (Ibid p.52). Going by account on all this, the Gujarat government has actually done quite well. It has certainly decimated Christians and Muslims, and ensured they have to live in constant fear and certainly as second-class citizens of the country. Hindutva-based governance is pure nonsense. The very word Hindutva was coined first by Savarkar, an atheist. And we who believe in idol-worship now are talking about it. This is totally ridiculous as Savarkar was against any form of idol worship himself. So also is Hindutva devoid of idol worship. Hindutva is a threat to India and its conception. Therefore, it should be banned totally from India. Regards Rakesh From rakesh.rnbdj at gmail.com Sun Apr 19 17:22:14 2009 From: rakesh.rnbdj at gmail.com (Rakesh Iyer) Date: Sun, 19 Apr 2009 17:22:14 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Shameful Torture of 23 Muslims Prisoners on March 26-27 In Sabarmati Jail, Ahamedabad: A Report by Human Rights Activists In-Reply-To: <265654.35368.qm@web57207.mail.re3.yahoo.com> References: <265654.35368.qm@web57207.mail.re3.yahoo.com> Message-ID: Dear Kshamendra I am happy to begin with that you have stated that bridging divides is the key point you are looking for. And even I would like to be a part of that. And for the rest of your points, I too agree with them. After all, Modi hasn't got each vote for his party; there can be many other factors for the same as well. Equally, I am not asking you or anyone to dismiss the BJP for that matter, basically because it does win votes after all. And one must note that as of now, it is one of the two major poles on which any government formation at the centre depends. However, when you stated that Modi could have provided Hindutva based governance instead of doing such things, I felt it was wrong because Hindutva essentially means this. First of all, I would like to point out that whether one accepts it or not, the conceptions of Hindutva have been defined by Savarkar and the RSS. And while you or I can have our conceptions, they are of no use simply because only the RSS version is employed. I would be glad if you could mention your conception of Hindutva as well before we go ahead with any further discussion. Regards Rakesh From kauladityaraj at gmail.com Sun Apr 19 17:34:55 2009 From: kauladityaraj at gmail.com (Aditya Raj Kaul) Date: Sun, 19 Apr 2009 17:34:55 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] 'Report based on SIT findings' In-Reply-To: <341380d00904190352x39a7185au587dadf98889a5b3@mail.gmail.com> References: <85a3156a0904181002i7fa2e6p2e67c4e445bdaf2d@mail.gmail.com> <756023.61048.qm@web57204.mail.re3.yahoo.com> <341380d00904190352x39a7185au587dadf98889a5b3@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <6353c690904190504l328c60afx559d9d804be74713@mail.gmail.com> Dhananjay Mahapatra has explained it all here; particularly for some friends here who were already celebrating for scoring points over TOI..Hope the wine glasses friends. One cannot just so easily rubbish the truth.. I didn't comment on the report of lies by CJP for this very reason the day before. The lies of Teesta Setalvad have been exposed..Quite unfortunate what she did maybe just for publicity or a few crisp notes. Lets hope some action is taken against her. 'coz we know how many more so called mirror image copies of Teesta would come up to scream against Judiciary and our great country. So easily they can be fooled. It is for everyone to see. thanks On Sun, Apr 19, 2009 at 4:22 PM, anupam chakravartty wrote: > The report is yet to come out in Public. the idea of highlighting some of > the contents from the report while not looking at the report as whole, so > that it can be contexualised is a mistake often made by several media > houses. I think we are falling for that same trap. Let the report be made > public. > > On 4/19/09, Rakesh Iyer wrote: > > > > Dear all > > > > Going ahead by such reports, I probably believe Mr. R.K.Raghavan himself > > should come out with the report in public, or the SC should declare an > > order > > to make it public. That can be helpful in deciding whether (at least on > my > > side) whether the report actually says it or not. > > > > Regards > > > > Rakesh > > _________________________________________ > > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > > Critiques & Collaborations > > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > > subscribe in the subject header. > > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > subscribe in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> > -- Aditya Raj Kaul Freelance Correspondent, The Times of India Cell - +91-9873297834 Blog: http://activistsdiary.blogspot.com/ From rakesh.rnbdj at gmail.com Sun Apr 19 17:46:19 2009 From: rakesh.rnbdj at gmail.com (Rakesh Iyer) Date: Sun, 19 Apr 2009 17:46:19 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] 'Report based on SIT findings' In-Reply-To: <6353c690904190504l328c60afx559d9d804be74713@mail.gmail.com> References: <85a3156a0904181002i7fa2e6p2e67c4e445bdaf2d@mail.gmail.com> <756023.61048.qm@web57204.mail.re3.yahoo.com> <341380d00904190352x39a7185au587dadf98889a5b3@mail.gmail.com> <6353c690904190504l328c60afx559d9d804be74713@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: Dear Aditya jee Why should one believe Dhananjay Mahapatra rather than Teesta Satalvad? And equally why should the reverse be done? And frankly I don't care whether Teesta is guilty or not. The fact is that women were raped and men were butchered in Gujarat. Let anybody deny that. And as for the judiciary, it need not be always right. The Sardar Sarovar dam rulings and the Mohammed Afzal ruling in Parliament attack are the case in point. And the judiciary is not God, though it certainly is the judge. Regards Rakesh From c.anupam at gmail.com Sun Apr 19 17:47:59 2009 From: c.anupam at gmail.com (anupam chakravartty) Date: Sun, 19 Apr 2009 17:47:59 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] 'Report based on SIT findings' In-Reply-To: <6353c690904190504l328c60afx559d9d804be74713@mail.gmail.com> References: <85a3156a0904181002i7fa2e6p2e67c4e445bdaf2d@mail.gmail.com> <756023.61048.qm@web57204.mail.re3.yahoo.com> <341380d00904190352x39a7185au587dadf98889a5b3@mail.gmail.com> <6353c690904190504l328c60afx559d9d804be74713@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <341380d00904190517m423fed1cq675d8e9002920802@mail.gmail.com> since when above mentioned author is an authority over the supreme court? is he speaking for R.K Raghavan. since when and how? where's the report?? On 4/19/09, Aditya Raj Kaul wrote: > > Dhananjay Mahapatra has explained it all here; particularly for some > friends > here who were already celebrating for scoring points over TOI..Hope the > wine > glasses friends. One cannot just so easily rubbish the truth.. > > I didn't comment on the report of lies by CJP for this very reason the day > before. > > The lies of Teesta Setalvad have been exposed..Quite unfortunate what she > did maybe just for publicity or a few crisp notes. Lets hope some action is > taken against her. 'coz we know how many more so called mirror image copies > of Teesta would come up to scream against Judiciary and our great country. > So easily they can be fooled. It is for everyone to see. > > thanks > > On Sun, Apr 19, 2009 at 4:22 PM, anupam chakravartty >wrote: > > > The report is yet to come out in Public. the idea of highlighting some of > > the contents from the report while not looking at the report as whole, so > > that it can be contexualised is a mistake often made by several media > > houses. I think we are falling for that same trap. Let the report be made > > public. > > > > On 4/19/09, Rakesh Iyer wrote: > > > > > > Dear all > > > > > > Going ahead by such reports, I probably believe Mr. R.K.Raghavan > himself > > > should come out with the report in public, or the SC should declare an > > > order > > > to make it public. That can be helpful in deciding whether (at least on > > my > > > side) whether the report actually says it or not. > > > > > > Regards > > > > > > Rakesh > > > _________________________________________ > > > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > > > Critiques & Collaborations > > > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > > > subscribe in the subject header. > > > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > > > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> > > _________________________________________ > > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > > Critiques & Collaborations > > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > > subscribe in the subject header. > > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> > > > > > > -- > Aditya Raj Kaul > > Freelance Correspondent, The Times of India > Cell - +91-9873297834 > > Blog: http://activistsdiary.blogspot.com/ > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > subscribe in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> From kshmendra2005 at yahoo.com Sun Apr 19 18:04:57 2009 From: kshmendra2005 at yahoo.com (Kshmendra Kaul) Date: Sun, 19 Apr 2009 05:34:57 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Reader-list] Shameful Torture of 23 Muslims Prisoners on March 26-27 In Sabarmati Jail, Ahamedabad: A Report by Human Rights Activists In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <274458.12755.qm@web57206.mail.re3.yahoo.com> Dear Rakesh   Since you have referred to it, this is what I had written """"" Instead of Modi's rule in Gujarat setting an inspirational example of "Hindutva based governance", it has been furnishing enough examples of horrific mis-governance that confirm the worst fears about Hindutvaism for anyone who loves India and is truly a nationalist." Since you seem to have misunderstood, I must explain that comment.   BJP is supposed to be the political face of Hindutva. Hindutvavaadis claim that Hindutva is not communal, that it is much misunderstood and that it would be the 'bestest' thing for India. Hence my comment that Modi should have used the opportunity to show everyone that such claims are true and set an 'inspirational example' of such a 'Hindutva based governance'. Instead Modi's rule has furnished  "enough examples of horrific mis-governance that confirm the worst fears about Hindutvaism for anyone who loves India and is truly a nationalist"   It would be easy for me to tell you what it is I understand by Hindutva on the basis of which I abhor it. I will not do it, in the context of this conversation, since we are talking about bridging divides not reinforcing them.    The bridging of divides is not with respect to Hindutva alone. That is why i wrote "I would rather question and attack singly every one of the examples of unacceptable speech or action (based in any ideology) that one is faced with from day to day. Not as a confrontation or propaganda but through due processes of Law. The Law alone is peoplespeake for what 'we the people of India' find unacceptable. If there are deficiencies in the Law or in it's application, those must be rectified."   There are a whole number of ideologies resident in India and regularly in the name of one or the other there is 'unacceptable speech or action'. In the context of this conversation, I will not highlight any single one as being deserving of exclusive attention. That would not be bridging divides but reinforcing them.   So it might be 'unacceptable speech or action' in the name of Hindutva; Islam; Hinduism; Christianity; Capitalism; Communism; Naxalism; Worker's Rights; Management Rights; and so on and on and on and on.   Each 'unacceptable' example should be tackled separately and head-on with the hope that it will diminish the incidence of such 'unacceptable speech or action' whatever be the ideology it is rooted in.   That is my attitude and viewpoint.    Kshmendra   --- On Sun, 4/19/09, Rakesh Iyer wrote: From: Rakesh Iyer Subject: Re: [Reader-list] Shameful Torture of 23 Muslims Prisoners on March 26-27 In Sabarmati Jail, Ahamedabad: A Report by Human Rights Activists To: kshmendra2005 at yahoo.com Cc: "sarai-list" , "Venugopalan K M" Date: Sunday, April 19, 2009, 5:22 PM Dear Kshamendra I am happy to begin with that you have stated that bridging divides is the key point you are looking for. And even I would like to be a part of that. And for the rest of your points, I too agree with them. After all, Modi hasn't got each vote for his party; there can be many other factors for the same as well. Equally, I am not asking you or anyone to dismiss the BJP for that matter, basically because it does win votes after all. And one must note that as of now, it is one of the two major poles on which any government formation at the centre depends. However, when you stated that Modi could have provided Hindutva based governance instead of doing such things, I felt it was wrong because Hindutva essentially means this. First of all, I would like to point out that whether one accepts it or not, the conceptions of Hindutva have been defined by Savarkar and the RSS. And while you or I can have our conceptions, they are of no use simply because only the RSS version is employed. I would be glad if you could mention your conception of Hindutva as well before we go ahead with any further discussion. Regards Rakesh From rakesh.rnbdj at gmail.com Sun Apr 19 18:14:44 2009 From: rakesh.rnbdj at gmail.com (Rakesh Iyer) Date: Sun, 19 Apr 2009 18:14:44 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Shameful Torture of 23 Muslims Prisoners on March 26-27 In Sabarmati Jail, Ahamedabad: A Report by Human Rights Activists In-Reply-To: <274458.12755.qm@web57206.mail.re3.yahoo.com> References: <274458.12755.qm@web57206.mail.re3.yahoo.com> Message-ID: Dear Kshamendra While you have stated that BJP should have proven their rule as best to state that Hindutva based governance is good (as they claim), my contention is that Hindutva is an ideology and BJP distances it from development. The BJP has never claimed Hindutva to be synonymous with development, it instead believes that Hindutva is the cultural essence of India, which has to be maintained and not lost due to development (through moral policing) and due to minority appeasement. So I don't feel that for the BJP, there is any such thing that Hindutva is development. Hence, I stated that Hindutva means an ideology which is committed to persecution of minorities. And trying to bridge divide does not mean one doesn't call spade a spade. It means we try to discuss and then find out where our differences lie, and then try to resolve them. Not avoid them, or postpone them. That is why I said it would be good if you can put up your definition of Hindutva. At least we can see where we are right and where we are wrong. If necessary, let us have a personal discussion(and not on this forum). Regards Rakesh From kshmendra2005 at yahoo.com Sun Apr 19 18:55:29 2009 From: kshmendra2005 at yahoo.com (Kshmendra Kaul) Date: Sun, 19 Apr 2009 06:25:29 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Reader-list] Shameful Torture of 23 Muslims Prisoners on March 26-27 In Sabarmati Jail, Ahamedabad: A Report by Human Rights Activists In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <347698.63641.qm@web57205.mail.re3.yahoo.com> Dear Rakesh   There seems to be no difference between you and me on the evaluation that one has to be wary of Hindutva.   One difference between you and me seems to be that you want to focus on Hindutva for "unacceptable speech and actions" emanating from it whereas I think that would be counterproductive to bridging divides in India that come from many ideological positions in which are rooted many an example of "unacceptable speech and action". We both should accept this difference between you and me.   The other difference between you and me seems to be around the BJP-Hindutva matrix. On this I am a bit confused over what you wanted to convey.   I believe that BJP nurtures within it's core (statedly or unstatedly) the totality of the Hindutva ideology. At the same time the Hindutva ideology does not find space for the totality of the BJP politics. It is this disconnect, I believe, that often leads to disagreements between the BJP and the Hindutvavaadis (RSS for example)   You on the other hand seem to believe (as I somewhat understood) that Hindutva is Anti-Development and that aspect of Hindutva is not acceptable to BJP and that "...it (BJP) .... believes that Hindutva is the cultural essence of India, which has to be maintained and not lost due to development (through moral policing) and due to minority appeasement."    A bit confusing for me especially in understanding the term 'development'. But whichever way you meant it, there is a clear difference of opinion between you and me over understanding of the BJP-Hindutva matrix. We both should accept this difference between you and me.   Perhaps we will have an occasion to exchange ideas on some other topic.   Kshmendra   --- On Sun, 4/19/09, Rakesh Iyer wrote: From: Rakesh Iyer Subject: Re: [Reader-list] Shameful Torture of 23 Muslims Prisoners on March 26-27 In Sabarmati Jail, Ahamedabad: A Report by Human Rights Activists To: kshmendra2005 at yahoo.com Cc: "sarai-list" Date: Sunday, April 19, 2009, 6:14 PM Dear Kshamendra While you have stated that BJP should have proven their rule as best to state that Hindutva based governance is good (as they claim), my contention is that Hindutva is an ideology and BJP distances it from development. The BJP has never claimed Hindutva to be synonymous with development, it instead believes that Hindutva is the cultural essence of India, which has to be maintained and not lost due to development (through moral policing) and due to minority appeasement. So I don't feel that for the BJP, there is any such thing that Hindutva is development. Hence, I stated that Hindutva means an ideology which is committed to persecution of minorities. And trying to bridge divide does not mean one doesn't call spade a spade. It means we try to discuss and then find out where our differences lie, and then try to resolve them. Not avoid them, or postpone them. That is why I said it would be good if you can put up your definition of Hindutva. At least we can see where we are right and where we are wrong. If necessary, let us have a personal discussion(and not on this forum). Regards Rakesh From kmvenuannur at gmail.com Sun Apr 19 19:20:42 2009 From: kmvenuannur at gmail.com (Venugopalan K M) Date: Sun, 19 Apr 2009 19:20:42 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Varun tortured in the jail, detention of vendetta politics. In-Reply-To: <61164a90904190318h34c335a0u53608782c360d256@mail.gmail.com> References: <61164a90904172324v3bd70018v8bfbd3055f3fa06e@mail.gmail.com> <1f9180970904182359kbc6e94av210b6974b4831a3@mail.gmail.com> <61164a90904190318h34c335a0u53608782c360d256@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <1f9180970904190650q3f541900s9c909cb99f57cc02@mail.gmail.com> >"..What the system of governance should have been done is done by the deviant individuals of the society from different faiths, which is very violation of our constitution..." 1. Where do you get "the system of governance" ? 2. Why do you suggest that deviant individuals of the society from different faiths should not have their say by legal and constitutional means ? 3. What are the features of their 'deviance' that you find so bad in them, to disqualify them? Having allegiance to Christianity, Islam, or Marxism, or simply to agnosticism or atheism? 4. Why so much of hue and cry on proselytizing , while it is a perfectly constitutional activity? Even if you argue that poor including dalits and adivasis in such cases are primarily driven by material incentives like a semblance of dignity in social life(which they are doubtful of getting in most cases) or even money itself, rather than spiritual concerns, your violent campaigns against proselytizing would not be justified. As a post script, I would like to add that I have no special love for Malayali people.,,On the contrary, I'd love to talk more about my less fortunate compatriots who live in constant fear of hordes taking over the streets to cure the 'deviants' and to protect their 'nation'. Keralites are a people comprising Ezhavas, Mujahid Muslims, Nairs, Sunni Muslims,Jama-ati Muslims,Nairs,Ravuthers ,Nambiars, Vellalas, Menons, Pulayas,Vannans,Parayas,Nampoothiris, Kurichyas, Pisharadis,Kurumas, Brahmans,Tamil Brahmans, Chettis , Roman Catholics, Protestants, Christians, Nadars Hindu and Christian, Latin Catholics an Sunnis and Jamaatis and lots of such varying identities.(You can of course, re-group them into four categories depending on their accessibility or non accessibility to reservations- FCs, OBCs, STs and ,SCs).We live here with lesser threats of bullying thanks to our democratic( you can say even left) tradition. Regards, Venu. On Sun, Apr 19, 2009 at 3:48 PM, Rajen Uppinangadi wrote: > Hi, >      Venu, > >       thanks for the sermons about the thoughts that I expressed which are > true to best of my knowledge, you have your perceptions, I do not wish to > contradict your perceptions, as I know that you have special love for the > malyalis , but for me religion or faith is personal, and bad governance has > made things difficult for the citizens, be they, tribals, adivasis or > others, the good governance if it is in place, the faith remains where it > is, in private domain, a hungry stomach, neglected by the system of > governance, lack of opportunities for the neglected, make them go for alms > distributed in the name of the only saviour, thus increasing numerical > strength of the voters, thus very democratic rule is undermined as they vote > not for the govrnance but for the "help" given which should have come from > good governance, not from any faith or its propaganda. > >   As to violence, it is to be noted with regret that violence begets more of > it, whether in the name of faith or politics, and the goons who killed  a 82 > year old swami were exactly doing that so that they could polarise the votes > in kandhamal, just as any other party in the game of garnering votes. When > Singur and Nandigram happened with rapes and killings, again it was the same > game of polarsing the votes by the athiest sections of the society, for > their plank of development on the dead bodies of poor tillers.The same is > the instance of Gujarath, that 59 bodies were burnt alive in a coach is sure > shot for more violence, and I do not justify violence from anyone as the > govrrnance has failed totally to act in time, thus giving rise , rather > outsourcing the delivery of justice to media and NGOs. What the system of > governance should have been done is done by the deviant individuals of the > society from different faiths, which is very violation of our constitution, > hope you think over these thoughts. > >    It is known fact that young generation is looking for jobs, and gainful > employments, bettering their life skills so that they can build a future > for themselvs and the next generation, but when reservation is based on > caste and faiths, instead of economic and need based criteria, we see the > lopsided development of few sections of society, discrimination in > governance becomes the order, thus the issues of frustrated individuals > becomes movements like naxalism, aggrieved working class becomes a trade > union, thus all reflect the lack of will to have good governance in society. > >  In democratic rule if discrimination is the order of the system, then the > elements of discrimination are faith, caste and region and religions. Thus > you can see the gaining power of clergies, in all faiths exhorting the > followers to vote to those whom they consider as deliverer of good, again > defeating the democracy. > > Regards, > > Rajen. > > > On Sun, Apr 19, 2009 at 12:29 PM, Venugopalan K M > wrote: >> >> Mr Rajen, You seem to speak true to your conscience..but may I ask you >> what authority you have to speak 'on behalf ' of people who opt for >> Christianity or whatever religion, when it comes to tribals and >> adivasis?Do you propose to suggest that the advivasis and tribals are >> people without any right to exercise free wills? What kind of >> criticism is that when you allege that  nuns of kerala drive sensual >> pleasure besides monetary gains by engaging in proselytizing. What is >> your locus standi  here? If you truly respect the Constitution, please >> try to acknowledge that the nuns have their constitutional right to >> propagate their faith as well as the tribals and adivasis do have >> theirs to convert. But you simply do not have the right to stop by >> force,though you can express your displeasure against proselytizing. >> Instead, you would do better to ponder over why these poor people damn >> the 'Hindu'-linked  identity of untouchables ,panchamas, rakshasas, >> asuras, which only gives them perpetualized penury and susceptibility >> to horrendous forms of institutionalized atrocities. >> Lastly, what is that  you stand to loose,if at all these nuns do enjoy >> sensual pleasures? I'm very happy to see this kind of hate speech in >> your posts not because I like its content,but because it betrays one's >> true colours, and people can always see through it...!.. >>  Still, you don't have any formal disagreement with the idea of human >> rights, freedom of conscience, democracy and such finer aspects of >> civility of mind..you would even object someone treating you as an >> apologist of Godse for that reason, and that's great about you, if I'm >> permitted to say. Perhaps that's the only reason why we talk to each >> other. >> But you seem to deny any issue of human rights existing there in >> Gujarat and you don't find a case of human rights violation there in >> Orissa, when christians are raped and killed for their alleged acts of >> proselytizing/conversion. Your idea of human rights is punctuated with >> sort of right to impunity and right to propagate hatred and violence >> against christians,muslims ,adivasis,dalits and women of each tribe >> including that of yours! >> >> Best wishes, >> Venu. >> >> >> >> >> On Sat, Apr 18, 2009 at 11:54 AM, Rajen Uppinangadi >> wrote: >> > Dear All, >> > >> > It is amusing to see the human rights activists, that too senior ones >> > rushing to sabarmathi jail to see if the human rights are violated of >> > bomb >> > blasts accused, because they belong to a particular faith, and the >> > amusing >> > comments and counters in the list for another person who was detained in >> > NSA >> > for "alleged" remarks that he would be defender of another community >> > against >> > traitors of the nation, even self defence in case of attack and rape is >> > not >> > possible for the community if numerical strength is higher in society, >> > they >> > have to "tolerate" the insults.? >> > >> >  As to the human rights committee and its "senior" activists, it can be >> > seen >> > that one John Dayal, is the clergy of evangelists, rolling in foreign >> > funds >> > for "uplifting " of the poor souls in poor regions of India with priests >> > and >> > nuns of seminaries from Kerala who being unemployed, find the jobs of >> > god's >> > work quite pleasurable with lots of sensuous pleasure factored in., >> > along >> > with good pay and incentives for harvesting the souls of tribals and >> > poor >> > pagans. >> >  As to accused in jails, who misbehave, who indulge in violence over >> > trivial matters because they have support of "activists" who are again >> > creation for vote bank politics is the real tragedy in democracy as >> > these >> > human right activists are more concerned of rights of inhumans in >> > society >> > than the rights of victims of their inhuman acts. >> > >> >  Democracy where sections get extra governance at the cost of >> > discrimination >> > to other sections, is not good governance. This extra governance is by >> > and >> > large due to the vote banks, because of the faith. Such a shame, and as >> > to >> > vasectomies, and varun,   Anupam has to remember that the coersion in >> > the >> > emergency days led to the defeat of the party and ballot answered the >> > brute >> > force in most humble and non violent manner. >> > >> > Also, if ones parents or father is deviant it does not necessarily >> > follow >> > that son is also deviant. To say that he will be defending his community >> > against barbaric acts of fanatics is not an issue that indian media >> > overhyped at the time of elections, and media has set the agenda for the >> > parties and hate is the media game for awards and rewards.That  a >> >  nation >> > with one billion people should hear and watch the discussion about an >> > "honest" prime minister and a prime minister in waiting talk of weak and >> > strong , which are again relative subjective terms , is national waste >> > of >> > energy, instead, if only these weak PM and strong PM in waiting used >> > their >> > energies to enlighten the voters with what would be issues of good >> > governance in the nation, it would greatly faciltate better >> > understanding of >> > what type of leadership the nation is going to get. >> > >> > Regards, >> > >> > Rajen. >> > _________________________________________ >> > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. >> > Critiques & Collaborations >> > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with >> > subscribe in the subject header. >> > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list >> > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> >> >> >> >> -- >> http://venukm.blogspot.com/ > > -- http://venukm.blogspot.com/ From kauladityaraj at gmail.com Sun Apr 19 19:44:51 2009 From: kauladityaraj at gmail.com (Aditya Raj Kaul) Date: Sun, 19 Apr 2009 19:44:51 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] 'Report based on SIT findings' In-Reply-To: <341380d00904190517m423fed1cq675d8e9002920802@mail.gmail.com> References: <85a3156a0904181002i7fa2e6p2e67c4e445bdaf2d@mail.gmail.com> <756023.61048.qm@web57204.mail.re3.yahoo.com> <341380d00904190352x39a7185au587dadf98889a5b3@mail.gmail.com> <6353c690904190504l328c60afx559d9d804be74713@mail.gmail.com> <341380d00904190517m423fed1cq675d8e9002920802@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <6353c690904190714v68bfa249secf95845e71fd858@mail.gmail.com> Dear Rakeshji and Anupamji, I'm also no authority on legal cases. Dhananjay as far as I know has been covering Supreme Court since last so many years and has a very good track record. He won't do a story and stand by it; just like that. There needs to be a solid proof for it and he cannot make the entire report public for obvious reasons. The SC might just hold this has an act against it. Dhananjay did his part has a journalist brilliantly. You may agree or disagree his report; that is your take. For me, I as well support his report. There are hundreds of 'allegations' made by so called activist Teesta and her chamchas against many politicians. What proof does she have? Apart from the hired and brainwashed witnesses. Even Teesta hasn'r provided any solid proof for this SIT report to be wrong or framed or anything false. She has just uttered some ramblings in a rejoinder issued to press; which doesn't say her part too boldly. The report will be out soon hopefully and I hope your doubts would be claered. thanks On Sun, Apr 19, 2009 at 5:47 PM, anupam chakravartty wrote: > since when above mentioned author is an authority over the supreme court? > is > he speaking for R.K Raghavan. since when and how? where's the report?? > > > > > > > On 4/19/09, Aditya Raj Kaul wrote: > > > > Dhananjay Mahapatra has explained it all here; particularly for some > > friends > > here who were already celebrating for scoring points over TOI..Hope the > > wine > > glasses friends. One cannot just so easily rubbish the truth.. > > > > I didn't comment on the report of lies by CJP for this very reason the > day > > before. > > > > The lies of Teesta Setalvad have been exposed..Quite unfortunate what she > > did maybe just for publicity or a few crisp notes. Lets hope some action > is > > taken against her. 'coz we know how many more so called mirror image > copies > > of Teesta would come up to scream against Judiciary and our great > country. > > So easily they can be fooled. It is for everyone to see. > > > > thanks > > > > On Sun, Apr 19, 2009 at 4:22 PM, anupam chakravartty > >wrote: > > > > > The report is yet to come out in Public. the idea of highlighting some > of > > > the contents from the report while not looking at the report as whole, > so > > > that it can be contexualised is a mistake often made by several media > > > houses. I think we are falling for that same trap. Let the report be > made > > > public. > > > > > > On 4/19/09, Rakesh Iyer wrote: > > > > > > > > Dear all > > > > > > > > Going ahead by such reports, I probably believe Mr. R.K.Raghavan > > himself > > > > should come out with the report in public, or the SC should declare > an > > > > order > > > > to make it public. That can be helpful in deciding whether (at least > on > > > my > > > > side) whether the report actually says it or not. > > > > > > > > Regards > > > > > > > > Rakesh > > > > _________________________________________ > > > > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > > > > Critiques & Collaborations > > > > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > > > > subscribe in the subject header. > > > > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > > > > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> > > > _________________________________________ > > > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > > > Critiques & Collaborations > > > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > > > subscribe in the subject header. > > > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > > > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> > > > > > > > > > > > -- > > Aditya Raj Kaul > > > > Freelance Correspondent, The Times of India > > Cell - +91-9873297834 > > > > Blog: http://activistsdiary.blogspot.com/ > > _________________________________________ > > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > > Critiques & Collaborations > > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > > subscribe in the subject header. > > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > subscribe in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> > -- Aditya Raj Kaul From sen.jhuma at gmail.com Sun Apr 19 19:59:55 2009 From: sen.jhuma at gmail.com (Jhuma Sen) Date: Sun, 19 Apr 2009 19:59:55 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] 'Report based on SIT findings' In-Reply-To: <6353c690904190714v68bfa249secf95845e71fd858@mail.gmail.com> References: <85a3156a0904181002i7fa2e6p2e67c4e445bdaf2d@mail.gmail.com> <756023.61048.qm@web57204.mail.re3.yahoo.com> <341380d00904190352x39a7185au587dadf98889a5b3@mail.gmail.com> <6353c690904190504l328c60afx559d9d804be74713@mail.gmail.com> <341380d00904190517m423fed1cq675d8e9002920802@mail.gmail.com> <6353c690904190714v68bfa249secf95845e71fd858@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <85a3156a0904190729m686de8dejc8ce2b79c107e83d@mail.gmail.com> Dhananjay's report makes no mention of the serious claim he made in his original article: that the SIT "found no truth" in the Kausar Banu incident. I am a bit curious about that part. That incident was actually narrated to the Nanavati Commission by two different witnesses in December 2003. http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/articleshow/355975.cms The specified gujarat violence incidents that he had rubbished in the original article are extremely well documented including the aforementioned one. I am curious to know why hasn't he elaborated anything in this explanation of his, about his initial original claim that such (well documented cases) of kausar bhanu and others were actually fictitious? He certainly claimed to have his authority in the SIT Report although I am a bit surprised at the report finding its way to him when the proceedings are still on. Regards Jhuma On Sun, Apr 19, 2009 at 7:44 PM, Aditya Raj Kaul wrote: > Dear Rakeshji and Anupamji, > > I'm also no authority on legal cases. Dhananjay as far as I know has been > covering Supreme Court since last so many years and has a very good track > record. He won't do a story and stand by it; just like that. There needs to > be a solid proof for it and he cannot make the entire report public for > obvious reasons. The SC might just hold this has an act against it. > Dhananjay did his part has a journalist brilliantly. You may agree or > disagree his report; that is your take. For me, I as well support his > report. > > There are hundreds of 'allegations' made by so called activist Teesta and > her chamchas against many politicians. What proof does she have? Apart from > the hired and brainwashed witnesses. Even Teesta hasn'r provided any solid > proof for this SIT report to be wrong or framed or anything false. She has > just uttered some ramblings in a rejoinder issued to press; which doesn't > say her part too boldly. > > The report will be out soon hopefully and I hope your doubts would be > claered. > > thanks > > On Sun, Apr 19, 2009 at 5:47 PM, anupam chakravartty >wrote: > > > since when above mentioned author is an authority over the supreme court? > > is > > he speaking for R.K Raghavan. since when and how? where's the report?? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > On 4/19/09, Aditya Raj Kaul wrote: > > > > > > Dhananjay Mahapatra has explained it all here; particularly for some > > > friends > > > here who were already celebrating for scoring points over TOI..Hope the > > > wine > > > glasses friends. One cannot just so easily rubbish the truth.. > > > > > > I didn't comment on the report of lies by CJP for this very reason the > > day > > > before. > > > > > > The lies of Teesta Setalvad have been exposed..Quite unfortunate what > she > > > did maybe just for publicity or a few crisp notes. Lets hope some > action > > is > > > taken against her. 'coz we know how many more so called mirror image > > copies > > > of Teesta would come up to scream against Judiciary and our great > > country. > > > So easily they can be fooled. It is for everyone to see. > > > > > > thanks > > > > > > On Sun, Apr 19, 2009 at 4:22 PM, anupam chakravartty < > c.anupam at gmail.com > > > >wrote: > > > > > > > The report is yet to come out in Public. the idea of highlighting > some > > of > > > > the contents from the report while not looking at the report as > whole, > > so > > > > that it can be contexualised is a mistake often made by several media > > > > houses. I think we are falling for that same trap. Let the report be > > made > > > > public. > > > > > > > > On 4/19/09, Rakesh Iyer wrote: > > > > > > > > > > Dear all > > > > > > > > > > Going ahead by such reports, I probably believe Mr. R.K.Raghavan > > > himself > > > > > should come out with the report in public, or the SC should declare > > an > > > > > order > > > > > to make it public. That can be helpful in deciding whether (at > least > > on > > > > my > > > > > side) whether the report actually says it or not. > > > > > > > > > > Regards > > > > > > > > > > Rakesh > > > > > _________________________________________ > > > > > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > > > > > Critiques & Collaborations > > > > > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > > > > > subscribe in the subject header. > > > > > To unsubscribe: > https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > > > > > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> > > > > _________________________________________ > > > > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > > > > Critiques & Collaborations > > > > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > > > > subscribe in the subject header. > > > > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > > > > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > -- > > > Aditya Raj Kaul > > > > > > Freelance Correspondent, The Times of India > > > Cell - +91-9873297834 > > > > > > Blog: http://activistsdiary.blogspot.com/ > > > _________________________________________ > > > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > > > Critiques & Collaborations > > > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > > > subscribe in the subject header. > > > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > > > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> > > _________________________________________ > > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > > Critiques & Collaborations > > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > > subscribe in the subject header. > > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> > > > > > > -- > Aditya Raj Kaul > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > subscribe in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> -- Research and Advocacy Officer Lawyers Collective Women's Rights Initiative 63/2 Masjid Road Jangpura New Delhi - 110014 Phone No.91-11 46866666,24373904,24372923 Fax-91-11-24373993 http://www.lawyerscollective.org/ From kshmendra2005 at yahoo.com Sun Apr 19 20:05:08 2009 From: kshmendra2005 at yahoo.com (Kshmendra Kaul) Date: Sun, 19 Apr 2009 07:35:08 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Reader-list] Why do Schools and Colleges in India Kill? In-Reply-To: <539E5D98-76EF-4A1F-B630-06A356F73001@sarai.net> Message-ID: <977231.12402.qm@web57204.mail.re3.yahoo.com> Dear Shuddha   Allow me to share some simplistic thoughts on this.   What we see reflected in such instances from educational institutions is the feudalism and fiefdomism that is rooted in almost every aspect of our lives in India.  They are in myriad forms but still have all the exploitative aspects that existed a few hundred years back.   Feudalism became instutionalised and networked in India during the colonial rule. It admirably served the purpose of both Rule and Revenue.   Post 1947, attempts were made to erase out Agricultural Feudalism. There was some success but it continued to some extent through the Benami system.   At the same time Feudalism and Fiefdomism saw itself cloned and being employed in various spheres and utilised for purposes of exercising control or exacting monies outside legal domains.   Educational Institutions are just one such area.   Post 1947, the economic policies that allowed Private Enterprise but gave them some protection against competition led in due course to Feudalism of Business Houses.    At the same time, the economic policies of Licence Raj created the Feudalism of the Bureaucracy   Ironically, the adoption of Free  Market Economy policies in recent years, without appropriate protection for small businesses has again resulted in the Feudalism of Business Houses.   While at one time 'workers' suffered exploitative employment, ensuring of Labour Rights in some areas, predominantly Larger Industrial and other enterprises saw the emergence of the Feudalism of the Workers.   The Feudalism of the Police continued unchecked through the decades as did that of the Revenue Officers. They were truly the soldiers of the interconnected Feudal Empires.   Interestingly, those who should have been the rebels against such Feudalism themselves succumbed to it and we got the Feudalism of the Students.   One could give other examples, but what is common to any such Feudalism and Fiefdomism is the abuse of Rights, Authority and Power in the safe assumption that India seriously lacks in Accountability and Environment for Justice and Delivery of Justice. (Will not expand on that. I am sure it is not needed)   Senior students in an educational institution or the teaching faculty are a part of similar feudal structures in their areas of operation and influence. They find themselves because of their position, as being formally or informally vested with, not only Rights but also Power and Authority which they find easy to abuse in the absence of Accountability.   My simplistic take.    Kshmendra     --- On Sat, 4/18/09, Shuddhabrata Sengupta wrote: From: Shuddhabrata Sengupta Subject: [Reader-list] Why do Schools and Colleges in India Kill? To: "sarai list" Date: Saturday, April 18, 2009, 12:39 AM Dear All, I find the incidence of deaths due to 'ragging' in educational institutions in india and the recent death of a young girl, a student of Class three, Shanno Khan, in a municipal school in Delhi caused by the corporal punishment meted out to her by her teacher because she could not tell the meaning of a word in English, totally shocking. Why is this murderous authoritarianism so prevalent in places of education in India. Why do students and teachers behave like executioners and impose so much violence on those weaker or smaller or younger than them? What is it about the nature of education and pedagogy in our society that makes it so conducive to producing little fascists and martinets? I hope this list can take some time to reflect on this. best Shuddha Shuddhabrata Sengupta The Sarai Programme at CSDS Raqs Media Collective shuddha at sarai.net www.sarai.net www.raqsmediacollective.net _________________________________________ reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. Critiques & Collaborations To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with subscribe in the subject header. To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> From taraprakash at gmail.com Sun Apr 19 20:15:50 2009 From: taraprakash at gmail.com (taraprakash) Date: Sun, 19 Apr 2009 10:45:50 -0400 Subject: [Reader-list] The Communist Conspiracy ! References: <98f331e00904190208j343c3f7eif12c3f6ee99af9e4@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <1187E24A2739423B8490A3D57FBEBB53@tara> Dear Rakesh and all. I will request you not to use amorphous "left" when you should use "Left Front" or more specifically "CPIM" You don't address Congress or other "non-left" parties as a collective right while talking about them. Secondly, as you have suggested CPIM and CPI at this moment have nothing against policies, they are only against parties. They will not mind RSS or any such organization's support if they are opposed to BJP and Congress. I wonder if you noticed how much RSS activists had helped Maya Vati to win the UP elections. No matter how little Brahmins voted for BSP Dalit Brahmin combination worked against BJP and Congress and in favor of BSP. A Hindutva idealogue had actually openly said little after the previous Lok Sabha elections that only a Dalit woman can unify this country. So there they are again, working with RSS and working as RSS. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Rakesh Iyer" To: "prakash ray" Cc: Sent: Sunday, April 19, 2009 6:01 AM Subject: Re: [Reader-list] The Communist Conspiracy ! > Dear Prakash jee > > You have raised certain important issues, and I would like to answer them > below: > > 1) We are talking about Left here, so I wont' raise arguments about > reservation, either for or against. The OBC reservation has been more > linked > with VP Singh rather than the Left. I don't have issues with reservation > as > a way to solve problems, though there are other issues case by case. So I > rest the case there. > > As for supporting it, the VP Singh govt also ensured that the country > continued on the path to being communalized under the Rath Yatra, thanks > to > its support of the BJP. Not until Lalu Yadav stopped the Yatra, did > anybody > do anything about it. And the Left couldn't pressurize the govt. to do > anything about it. They should have withdrawn then itself if this was what > happening as the Yatra was going on. > > I have no issues with implementing the Mandal report (though with > modifications). As for Congress, I support policies, not parties. > > 2) By stating the obvious, you have already said that Left has to play a > game of political opportunism to be in contention for power at the Centre. > Whatever you may point out, the AIADMK, the BSP, or the BJD are parties > which are authoritarian and undemocratic. Moreover, all have had fair > share > of corruption or wrong policies of industrialization being followed at the > ground level. Till last 6 months, the Left was fighting BJD on the issue > of > land being snatched away from tribals, now they are in alliance. What > great > hobnobbing? > > If you wish to justify this by stating this is a politically expedient > move, > for me it's still wrong, though I can sympathise with the Left for it > being > inevitable. > > 3) Alliances if made are not wrong. But alliances should not be based on > political opportunism. Otherwise there is no point in such alliances at > all. > Do the BSP, AIADMK or even the BJD have a proper conception of development > and what they stand for? Do they even have an idea about the kind of > policies to be introduced, and have discussions on such issues? Do they > even > have inner-party democracy? Forget all this, is there any assurance that > AIADMK or BSP would stay back with the Left post elections? > > Even the Left would not have the answer to that. And if it thinks it has > answers, let me remind people here that after 2001 elections of assembly > in > Tamil Nadu, where Jayalalitha was in alliance with Left and Congress, on > gaining an absolute majority of her own, she threw away all her allies and > instead supported BJP's stand in the assembly on many issues. > > Whom are you fooling by creating such alliances with corrupt individuals? > > 4) If the Bengal govt. would have conducted a referendum in Nandigram and > Singur before giving land, among all the stakeholders involved, after > conducting proper discussions between them and the Tatas, and if then the > referendum would have approved transfer of the land, would not that have > introduced a new model of development in West Bengal and India? > > I am happy you accept at least that the Left's policy was flawed. But my > issue is still not addressed completely here. Buddhadev approves FDI in > certain sectors and even said once that nuclear energy is fine. But the > Left > opposed both the nuclear deal and even FDI in those same sectors Buddhadev > supports. Then which is the true Left? > > 5) For your point with Madani, here is the story from Outlook: > > *Even with all this, the "bad flavour" of the month, by all accounts, is > Pinarayi Vijayan. His cosying up to the People’s Democratic Party (PDP) of > Abdul Nasser Madani, linked to the 1998 Coimbatore blasts, has embarrassed > many of his comrades. Pinarayi justifies it with the > ends-justify-the-means > line, saying the PDP’s unsolicited, unconditional support could help end > the > Muslim League’s sway. * > > *Not many are convinced. Critic and columnist Prof Sukumar Azhikode, a > friend of Pinarayi’s, has this to say: "It’s sickening. It hurts one’s > eyes > to se them—Vijayan and Madani—together." Tactically, CM V.S. Achuthanandan > disapproved of the open dalliance with the Muslim cleric, whose family is > on > the terror radar. In fact, Director-General of Prosecution V.G. Govindan > Nair’s advisory to the home department has asked that serious note be > taken > of the allegations against the Madani family following the high court’s > intervention. > * > > *The LDF’s other constituents aren’t happy either. CPI general secretary > A.B. Bardhan has called the PDP "communal". RSP general secretary T.J. > Chandrachoodan described the party as "worse than the Muslim League". It > was > left to CPI(M) politburo member S. Ramachandran Pillai to raise a > technical > argument in Pinarayi’s favour, saying the party had not yet taken a stand > on > the PDP unlike on the League, which "is communal". > * > > What* *you are raising here is a technical argument that Madani has come > and > supported the Communists. At the least, the party could have denounced him > and said they dont' require his support. Even now, they haven't said so. > What they do say is that they haven't taken a stand on the issue. > > 6) For your point about the case against Pinarayi Vijayan, here is > further > more from Outlook: > > *As power minister in 1996-98, flouting established procedure, he presided > over the award of a Rs 390-crore contract to Canadian engineering firm SNC > Lavalin for the repair and modernisation of three hydel plants. The CAG > had > slammed the contract. The CBI, which probed the deal on the HC’s orders, > has > arraigned Pinarayi as the 9th accused. Its request for sanction to > prosecute > him is pending with the governor, who in turn is awaiting the state > cabinet’s advice. * > > The link for Outlook story is: > http://outlookindia.com/fullprint.asp?choice=2&fodname=20090427&fname=Kerala&sid=1 > > > So what can I say? The Left is as politically opportunistic as the BJP has > been, except that the BJP knows it is focussed on the larger goal of > creating Hindu nation more than the Left in terms of improving conditions > for the people. > > Regards > > Rakesh > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > subscribe in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> From kshmendra2005 at yahoo.com Sun Apr 19 20:19:23 2009 From: kshmendra2005 at yahoo.com (Kshmendra Kaul) Date: Sun, 19 Apr 2009 07:49:23 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Reader-list] Taliban levy jazia on Sikhs in Pakistan Message-ID: <619233.17732.qm@web57206.mail.re3.yahoo.com>   "Taliban levy jazia on Sikhs in Pakistan"   Sikhs living in Pakistan’s Orakzai Agency have reportedly paid Rs 20 million as “jazia” to the Taliban, a tax previously levied by Mughal rulers on non-Muslims to exempt them from military service and protect their person in the sub-continent.   The Daily Times, a Pakistani newspaper, reported on Thursday that “detained” Sikh leader Sardar Saiwang Singh was released by the Taliban, who also vacated the community’s houses occupied by them.   They also announced protection for the Sikh community, saying no one would harm them after they paid “jazia”. Sikhs who had left the agency would now return and resume their business in the Agency, which is part of the Federally Administered Tribal Areas in north-western Pakistan, the paper added.   “The Taliban don’t have a state, so they can’t impose jazia,” Lucknow-based historian Salim Kidwai told the HT.   The Mughal ruler, Akbar, abolished jazia on his subjects, which was re-imposed by Aurangzeb in the 17th century.   In Amritsar, the Shiromani Gurdwara Prabandhak Committee (SGPC) secretary Dilmegh Singh quoted the Pakistan Sikh Gurdwara Prabandhak Committee (PSGPC) president Bishen Singh as saying that more than 200 Sikhs and Hindus had taken shelter in gurdwaras in Nankan Sahib and Peshawar.   Meanwhile, SGPC president Avtar Singh Makkar wrote to Prime Minister Manmohan Singh and his Pakistani counterpart Yusuf Raza Gilani to ensure the security of Sikhs and Hindus in the trouble-torn country.   With inputs from agencies http://www.hindustantimes.com/StoryPage/StoryPage.aspx?sectionName=HomePage&id=fffc21c0-80de-4283-9e62-a46a25fe3e23&Headline=Pak+Sikhs+pay+Taliban+Rs+20+mn+as+%e2%80%98tax%e2%80%99     From kshmendra2005 at yahoo.com Sun Apr 19 20:23:27 2009 From: kshmendra2005 at yahoo.com (Kshmendra Kaul) Date: Sun, 19 Apr 2009 07:53:27 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Reader-list] Mann ready to talk to Taliban on 'jazia' on Sikhs Message-ID: <723688.75905.qm@web57202.mail.re3.yahoo.com> "Mann ready to talk to Taliban on 'jazia' on Sikhs" Sangrur | Saturday, Apr 18 2009 IST   In an apparent attempt to win the votes of the Sikh community, Shiromani Akali Dal (SAD-Amritsar) president Simranjit Singh Mann today said that he would talk to the Taliban leaders and ask them to lift the 'jazia' (religious tax) imposed on the Sikh community in the Aurakzai tribal region near the north western city of Peshawar in Pakistan.   '' I will go to Pakistan and talk directly to the Taliban for lifting this tax'', Mr Mann declared before mediapersons prior to filing his nomination papers from the Sangrur parliamentary seat which he has represented once in Parliament.   At the onset he said that he would go to Pakistan in a day or two but then on the advice of some of his party colleagues Mr Mann said that he would cross over after May seven, the day of polling for the Sangrur seat which goes to the polls in the first phase alongwith Bathinda, Patiala and Ferozepur.   Mr Mann's announcement is an apparent attempt to score over Chief Minister Parkash Singh Badal and former CM Capt Amarinder Singh of the Congress who have appealed to Prime Minister Manmohan Singh to take up the 'jazia' issue with the Pakistan government and ensure the protection of the Sikh community residing on the other side of the border.   The Shiromani Gurdwara Prabandak Committee (SGPC) controlled by the Badal-faction of the Akali Dal has also urged the Prime Minister to take up with the Pakistan government the issue of safeguard of minority communities threatened by the Taliban.   In a recent letter addressed to the PM, SGPC president Avtar Singh Makkar expressed concern about reports pouring in from across the border that minorities, particularly the Hindus and Sikhs were being threatened by the Taliban in the North West Frontier Province (NWFP). In the letter the SGPC chief referred to reports that 'jazia' had been imposed on Sikh families in areas dominated by the Taliban. The letter pointed out that a large number of Hindu and Sikh families had fled their homes in the Taliban dominated areas and sought refugee in Gurdwaras in Nankana Sahib and other shrines in Pakistan.   The SGPC chief urged the PM to take appropriate diplomatic steps with Pakistan to ensure he protection of minorities across the border.   -- (UNI) -- 18DR35.xml   http://news.webindia123.com/news/Articles/India/20090418/1230385.html   From kshmendra2005 at yahoo.com Sun Apr 19 20:23:27 2009 From: kshmendra2005 at yahoo.com (Kshmendra Kaul) Date: Sun, 19 Apr 2009 07:53:27 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Reader-list] Mann ready to talk to Taliban on 'jazia' on Sikhs Message-ID: <970977.75905.qm@web57202.mail.re3.yahoo.com> "Mann ready to talk to Taliban on 'jazia' on Sikhs" Sangrur | Saturday, Apr 18 2009 IST   In an apparent attempt to win the votes of the Sikh community, Shiromani Akali Dal (SAD-Amritsar) president Simranjit Singh Mann today said that he would talk to the Taliban leaders and ask them to lift the 'jazia' (religious tax) imposed on the Sikh community in the Aurakzai tribal region near the north western city of Peshawar in Pakistan.   '' I will go to Pakistan and talk directly to the Taliban for lifting this tax'', Mr Mann declared before mediapersons prior to filing his nomination papers from the Sangrur parliamentary seat which he has represented once in Parliament.   At the onset he said that he would go to Pakistan in a day or two but then on the advice of some of his party colleagues Mr Mann said that he would cross over after May seven, the day of polling for the Sangrur seat which goes to the polls in the first phase alongwith Bathinda, Patiala and Ferozepur.   Mr Mann's announcement is an apparent attempt to score over Chief Minister Parkash Singh Badal and former CM Capt Amarinder Singh of the Congress who have appealed to Prime Minister Manmohan Singh to take up the 'jazia' issue with the Pakistan government and ensure the protection of the Sikh community residing on the other side of the border.   The Shiromani Gurdwara Prabandak Committee (SGPC) controlled by the Badal-faction of the Akali Dal has also urged the Prime Minister to take up with the Pakistan government the issue of safeguard of minority communities threatened by the Taliban.   In a recent letter addressed to the PM, SGPC president Avtar Singh Makkar expressed concern about reports pouring in from across the border that minorities, particularly the Hindus and Sikhs were being threatened by the Taliban in the North West Frontier Province (NWFP). In the letter the SGPC chief referred to reports that 'jazia' had been imposed on Sikh families in areas dominated by the Taliban. The letter pointed out that a large number of Hindu and Sikh families had fled their homes in the Taliban dominated areas and sought refugee in Gurdwaras in Nankana Sahib and other shrines in Pakistan.   The SGPC chief urged the PM to take appropriate diplomatic steps with Pakistan to ensure he protection of minorities across the border.   -- (UNI) -- 18DR35.xml   http://news.webindia123.com/news/Articles/India/20090418/1230385.html   From rakesh.rnbdj at gmail.com Sun Apr 19 20:47:10 2009 From: rakesh.rnbdj at gmail.com (Rakesh Iyer) Date: Sun, 19 Apr 2009 20:47:10 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Shameful Torture of 23 Muslims Prisoners on March 26-27 In Sabarmati Jail, Ahamedabad: A Report by Human Rights Activists In-Reply-To: <347698.63641.qm@web57205.mail.re3.yahoo.com> References: <347698.63641.qm@web57205.mail.re3.yahoo.com> Message-ID: Dear Kshamendra Just to clarify things. Just because Hindutva or Hindu customs may be lost out to development (I mean culture as they call it), doesn't mean Hindutva is anti-development. It means both are exclusive of each other as concepts, though they affect each other. Exclusivity means both are not a part of each other. Development for them does not include Hindutva or vice-versa. But both affect each other in their terms. Regards Rakesh From rakesh.rnbdj at gmail.com Sun Apr 19 20:49:33 2009 From: rakesh.rnbdj at gmail.com (Rakesh Iyer) Date: Sun, 19 Apr 2009 20:49:33 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] 'Report based on SIT findings' In-Reply-To: <6353c690904190714v68bfa249secf95845e71fd858@mail.gmail.com> References: <85a3156a0904181002i7fa2e6p2e67c4e445bdaf2d@mail.gmail.com> <756023.61048.qm@web57204.mail.re3.yahoo.com> <341380d00904190352x39a7185au587dadf98889a5b3@mail.gmail.com> <6353c690904190504l328c60afx559d9d804be74713@mail.gmail.com> <341380d00904190517m423fed1cq675d8e9002920802@mail.gmail.com> <6353c690904190714v68bfa249secf95845e71fd858@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: Dear Aditya Is it so that excerpts from a report may be allowed to publish and yet the entire report may not be allowed to publish? That is quite strange for me. As for agreement or disagreement either with Dhananjay or Teesta, since probably it could be a case of jumping the gun early, I will wait for the judgement and the report. Regards Rakesh From kauladityaraj at gmail.com Sun Apr 19 23:34:34 2009 From: kauladityaraj at gmail.com (Aditya Raj Kaul) Date: Sun, 19 Apr 2009 23:34:34 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Country has to be saved from of caste-based parties: Advani Message-ID: <6353c690904191104g7d87d808p15d52f4f51210a3c@mail.gmail.com> *Country has to be saved from of caste-based parties: Advani* London (PTI): Blaming 'caste-based' parties for creating social unrest in India, BJP's Prime Ministerial candidate L K Advani has said that the country has to be "saved" from such political outfits. "The country has to be saved from the growing influence of caste-based parties which would increase social tensions," Mr. Advani told The Sunday Telegraph. Terming India an "essential Hindu" nation, he praised people for their ability to tolerate "diametrically opposite views," which has made the country a successful democracy. "India is essentially Hindu, and therefore secular and democratic," he said."India has succeeded as a democracy because its people are able to tolerate a diametrically opposite view," he added. From c.anupam at gmail.com Mon Apr 20 00:17:37 2009 From: c.anupam at gmail.com (anupam chakravartty) Date: Mon, 20 Apr 2009 00:17:37 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Delivery Status Notification (Failure) In-Reply-To: <0016361648b3e302e50467ea6feb@googlemail.com> References: <341380d00904190854w5318241ey4778a747113c6a7e@mail.gmail.com> <0016361648b3e302e50467ea6feb@googlemail.com> Message-ID: <341380d00904191147n8be6c85rf9ea8c8f09294f0@mail.gmail.com> test mail On Sun, Apr 19, 2009 at 9:25 PM, Mail Delivery Subsystem < mailer-daemon at googlemail.com> wrote: > This is an automatically generated Delivery Status Notification > > Delivery to the following recipient failed permanently: > > readers-list at sarai.net > > Technical details of permanent failure: > Google tried to deliver your message, but it was rejected by the recipient > domain. We recommend contacting the other email provider for further > information about the cause of this error. The error that the other server > returned was: 550 550 : Recipient address > rejected: User unknown in virtual mailbox table (state 14). > > ----- Original message ----- > > MIME-Version: 1.0 > Received: by 10.90.88.16 with SMTP id l16mr6078140agb.91.1240156471278; > Sun, > 19 Apr 2009 08:54:31 -0700 (PDT) > In-Reply-To: > References: <85a3156a0904181002i7fa2e6p2e67c4e445bdaf2d at mail.gmail.com> > <756023.61048.qm at web57204.mail.re3.yahoo.com> > > <341380d00904190352x39a7185au587dadf98889a5b3 at mail.gmail.com> > <6353c690904190504l328c60afx559d9d804be74713 at mail.gmail.com> > <341380d00904190517m423fed1cq675d8e9002920802 at mail.gmail.com> > <6353c690904190714v68bfa249secf95845e71fd858 at mail.gmail.com> > > Date: Sun, 19 Apr 2009 21:24:31 +0530 > Message-ID: <341380d00904190854w5318241ey4778a747113c6a7e at mail.gmail.com> > Subject: Re: [Reader-list] 'Report based on SIT findings' > From: anupam chakravartty > To: readers-list at sarai.net > Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=0016361648b3efc5390467ea6d05 > > --0016361648b3efc5390467ea6d05 > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 > Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > > Hi aditya, > > see there other set of rumours also in gujarat about the gujarat home > minister, amit shah sending the press notes of the report across to various > media channels. but these are a set of rumours, we are not treating them as > truths. are we? should we? > > ----- Message truncated ----- > > From shuddha at sarai.net Mon Apr 20 03:48:42 2009 From: shuddha at sarai.net (Shuddhabrata Sengupta) Date: Mon, 20 Apr 2009 03:48:42 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Irfan Habib's appeal to vote for the Left In-Reply-To: <98f331e00904180101x6446345y15dbf67a38d745b4@mail.gmail.com> References: <98f331e00904180101x6446345y15dbf67a38d745b4@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <8C978BCF-C346-4CD9-9E62-3C287A14FA52@sarai.net> Dear Prakash, Please refrain from using this list for forwarding election related propaganda. If Atal Behari Vajpayee's exhortation to vote for Advani and the BJP (as forwarded by Pawan Durani) is unacceptable here, so is Irfan Habib's appeal to vote for other political parties. best Shuddha On 18-Apr-09, at 1:31 PM, prakash ray wrote: > Irfan Habib (Professor Emeritus, Aligarh Muslim University) has > issued an > appeal to vote for the Left. Here is the text - > > “As India goes to polls to elect the country’s Parliament it is > crucial for > us to realize that the interests of all sections of our people, the > poor, > the workers, peasants, and the middle classes, will be served best by > electing to Parliament the largest possible number of candidates of > the > CPI(M) and other Left parties. It was because of the efforts of the > Left > Parties that the ruling Congress was unable to implement many of its > projected measures designed to favour big business at the cost of the > people. The Left Parties have uncompromisingly fought against the > Congress > government’s increasing subservience to US imperialism and growing > closeness > to Israel. They have also unflinchingly stood up for secularism, > women’s > rights, affirmative action for minorities and protection of dalits’ > interests. By voting firmly for the Left Front candidates, people will > surely help to change the destiny of the whole country.” > > - Irfan Habib (Professor Emeritus, Aligarh Muslim University) > (http://www.vote.cpim.org/node/1404) > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > subscribe in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> Shuddhabrata Sengupta The Sarai Programme at CSDS Raqs Media Collective shuddha at sarai.net www.sarai.net www.raqsmediacollective.net From shuddha at sarai.net Mon Apr 20 03:55:31 2009 From: shuddha at sarai.net (Shuddhabrata Sengupta) Date: Mon, 20 Apr 2009 03:55:31 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Shameful Torture of 23 Muslims Prisoners on March 26-27 In Sabarmati Jail, Ahamedabad: A Report by Human Rights Activists In-Reply-To: <922211.79580.qm@web57202.mail.re3.yahoo.com> References: <922211.79580.qm@web57202.mail.re3.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <2A6F9650-0EEA-4BB5-B6CC-8C8F1C7061D6@sarai.net> Dear All, The allegations of torture on the detenues in Sabarmati Jail are a serious matter, and I personally feel that they need investigation. I would also like to state here, that I am totally against the detention of Varun Gandhi, which was done under the National Security Act. I find Varun Gandhi's statements reprehensible, they just show the disgusting level of pettiness and prejudice to which he and his party are prepared to stoop in order to score points in an election campaign and I think they should be combatted politically. If at all necessary charges could have been brought against him, since he is seeking election, through the relevant sections of the Representation of the People Act and some parts of the Indian Penal Code. But the National Security Act is a preventive detention law, and I think in principle, all instances of preventive detention should be opposed as they are against democratic norms, This only ends up gifting Varun Gandhi with a halo we don;t need to see him with. regards Shuddha On 18-Apr-09, at 3:43 PM, Kshmendra Kaul wrote: > Dear Venugopalan > > Any mistreatment of prisoners in a jail is reprehensible. > > However, do you think it was proper of you to give the Subject Line > that you have given for this report? > > The report expresses concern at the government (mis)handling of the > beating up of 22 (not 23) jail inmates. It describes them as "most > of them Muslim" > > "Most of them Muslim" and not "All of them Muslim" as is rather > unfortunately suggested by your Subject Line which gives quite a > different sense. > > > Kshmendra > > > --- On Fri, 4/17/09, Venugopalan K M wrote: > > From: Venugopalan K M > Subject: [Reader-list] Shameful Torture of 23 Muslims Prisoners on > March 26-27 In Sabarmati Jail, Ahamedabad: A Report by Human Rights > Activists > To: "sarai-list" > Date: Friday, April 17, 2009, 3:17 PM > > Dear Sir/Madam, > Prelimanary Report of INDEPENDENT COMMITTEE ON INCIDENTS OF 26-27th > MARCH > 2009 IN SABARMATI JAIL, > AHMEDABAD. > > > *INDEPENDENT COMMITTEE ON INCIDENTS OF 26-27th MARCH 2009 IN > SABARMATI JAIL, > AHMEDABAD, GUJARAT* > > > CAMP: People’s Union for Civil Liberties c/o Gandhi peace Foundation, > Himavan, Paldi Char Rasta, Ahmadabad 380006 > > > *PRESS NOTE* > > > *AHMEDABAD, April 16, 2009* > > > * * > > > * * > > > An Independent committee of senior national human rights activists has > expressed its deep concern at the government handling of the > beating up of > 22 inmates of the Sabarmati Jail on 25 March 2009, and has called > for a full > enquiry, preferably a judicial one by a judge of the High Court, > into gross > violations of the Jail manual and human rights norms established by > the > Courts and the NHRC. Regrettably, the incident reinforces the image of > Gujarat as a state where the human rights of religious minorities > and weaker > sections are not honoured. > > > Inmates, most of them Muslim, who were on a hunger strike, were > denied > medical attention after a brutal attack on them by jail staff, > which left at > least three of them unconscious for so long as to start rumours in > the city > that they had died. They were subsequently denied access to > counsel, their > relatives were refused permission to meet them for three days, and > then the > Sabarmati Police station failed to register an FIR as sought by > relatives > and counsel of the victims. > > > The independent committee consisted of Dr. John Dayal, Member, > National > Integration Council, Govt. of India, Adv. K. Kesavan, Joint > Secretary, CPCL, > Tamil Nadu, Dr. J. S. Bandukwala, President, PUCL, Gujarat, Dr. S. > Q. R. > Ilyas, Editor, Afkar-e-Milli, New Delhi, Mr. Gopal Menon, Film Maker, > Bangalore, Mr. Mahtab Alam,Coordinator, Association for the > Protection of > Civil Rights (APCR), New Delhi, Ms. Harini Krishna, Film Maker, > Mumbai, and > Ms. Ruchi Shroff, Civil Rights Activist, Mumbai, Mr. Gautam Thakar, > Secretary, Secretary, PUCL, Gujarat was in Ahmadabad from 15th to > 16thApril 09. > > > At a public hearing, the Committee heard statements from mothers, > wives and > sisters of the jail inmates who gave detailed narrative of the > events in the > jail as they had heard from the inmates when they were finally > allowed to > meet them. The women presented blood stained clothes of the > inmates. Counsel > gave the committee copies of the PIL filed in the Gujarat High > Court, the > medical report filed by two lawyers who had met the inmates in > jail, as also > correspondence with the jail and police authorities seeking justice > and > medical care for the injured. > > > The committee made several efforts to approach the authorities. The > committee in fact went to the Sabarmati jail and met Superintendent > Chandrashekhar who refused permission to visit the concerned ward > and meet > the inmates. Inspector general of police Mr. Keshav Kumar, despite > a written > request followed up by repeated visits to his office and a telephone > conversation with him would not find time for the committee. The > visit to > the Sabarmati Police station was an eye-opener where ACP Vaghela, > SHO Joshi > and Inspector Parmar all but justified the violence against the > inmates > saying they were criminals accused in Bomb blasts, and had indulged in > violence in the Jail. The three officers admitted an FIR had been > registered > at the behest of the Jail authorities. They denied they had even > received > complaints from the families of the victims in this case. > > > The investigating committee does not comment on the cases in which > these 22 > persons are in jail, or even on several other events that have > taken place > in the Sabarmati jail in recent weeks which go to show that all is > not right > with its administration. But it is clear from the testimony of the > relatives > of the victims and the admission of the police officers that the > chain of > events has been triggered off with the coming of the new Jail > Superintendent > who stopped long standing practices of taking ill and injured > inmates to the > civil hospital, provision of highly specialized medicine and > curtailed other > rights. It was in response to this that the prisoners went on a highly > publicized hunger strike. > > > The committee will submit a detailed report in a couple of weeks. > But it is > important to record its preliminary findings and recommendations. > > > *Initial observation of the team * > > > * * > > > 1. *Beating of the Jail inmates are admitted in an affidavit > filed by > Jail authority.* > 2. *Draconian jail manual laid down by the British is followed > till date, > even though parts of it are contradictory to our Constitution.* > 3. *Advocates and relatives of the inmates were not allowed to > meet for a > long time, which is a serious violation of Prisoners’ Rights.* > 4. *No FIR of the relatives has been registered till date.* > 5. *Inspire of 22 prisoners suffering injuries, some of them being > fractures, they were treated within the jail as our patients > correctly, they > should have been admitted to civil hospital. * > > > * * > > > *We demand that-* > > > * * > > > 1. *National Human Rights Commission should intervene on the > issue and > report to the Supreme Court.* > 2. *Proper medical help should be given by the civil hospital. * > 3. *PUCL Gujarat and Human Rights groups should be allowed to > meet and > gather first hand information. * > > > * * > > > * * > > > Sd/- > > > Dr John Dayal- 09811021072 > > > Prof J S Badukwala > > > Dr SQR Ilyas > > > Mr. Gautam Thakar, Secretary, PUCL, Gujarat-09825382556 > > > Released to the media for publication. > > > regards, > Mahtab > > > MD. MAHTAB ALAM > mdmahtaba... at gmail.com > Phone:+ 91-9811209345 > > > -- > MD. MAHTAB ALAM > mdmahtaba... at gmail.com > Phone:+ 91-9811209345 > > > Press Note ahmedabad 16 april 09.doc > 41K View Download > > > > > -- > http://venukm.blogspot.com/ > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > subscribe in > the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> > > > > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > subscribe in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> Shuddhabrata Sengupta The Sarai Programme at CSDS Raqs Media Collective shuddha at sarai.net www.sarai.net www.raqsmediacollective.net From shuddha at sarai.net Mon Apr 20 04:18:26 2009 From: shuddha at sarai.net (Shuddhabrata Sengupta) Date: Mon, 20 Apr 2009 04:18:26 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Can't we shut Reader-List temporarily until polls are over In-Reply-To: <20090419093644.GB59510@xs4all.nl> References: <459850.92226.qm@web31701.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <20090419093644.GB59510@xs4all.nl> Message-ID: <08A4C8D8-A8C5-4C36-88BC-9C5843DDDC23@sarai.net> Dear Patrice, Dear Francesca, Nobody is suggesting that the election should not talked about or discussed on this list. These discussions may well include opinions expressed by list members that takes sides. Some of us are merely requesting other list members not to post or forward propaganda by political parties. And the moderator has taken note of that. Political parties regularly employ 'marketeers' and deploy party activists to inundate public platforms with their messages and advertisements at election time. Generally, the more powerful the party, the deeper its pockets, the more aggressive and clamorous the marketing exercise. We would like to keep the Reader List safe from the actions and impulses of these deep pockets. As I have said before, we might as well have people advertising microsoft, coca-cola and the Tata Nano if we acquiesce to the presence of political advertisements and endorsements. I think that the health of the list will be severely undermined by this. If you are curious about the platforms and manifestos of different parties and candidates in the election, I would suggest googling for them, that is what I do when I want to follow an American, Italian, Spanish or British Election, I do not need native informants to do that for me, and believe me, even the most obscure of political parties in India have their modest wikipedia entries. And all Indian English language newspapers and Television Channels have strong web presences, so getting a sense of what the candidates and parties are putting out as their platforms is a cakewalk. Enjoy the exercise. best Shuddha We are merely t On 19-Apr-09, at 3:06 PM, Patrice Riemens wrote: > On Sat, Apr 18, 2009 at 11:35:22PM -0700, francesca recchia wrote: >> Dear all >> >> As a non-Indian who tries to follow and contribute to the reading >> list, the idea of suspending it during the election time sounds >> quite unfortunate. >> I guess this can be a challenge to the general sense of >> responsibility and respect towards the others in how we write what >> we write. >> >> This is definitely not the site for campaigning but should be the >> place for challenging and exchanging each other's ideas. >> >> There is a quotation from Julio Cortazar that I love and might be >> inspiring in this debate: >> I write by default and dislocation, and since I write out of an >> interstice I always invite others to discover one of their own and to >> see for themselves the garden where the trees bear fruits that >> turn out >> to be precious stones. The monster remains the same. >> >> Hugs >> francesca >> >> francesca recchia >> kiccovich at yahoo.com > > > Though I do not and by far read all the SRL postings, I tend to > agree with > Francesca, was it only because we, the firangis, are somewhat in > awe to > see how elections and the democratic process are taken so seriously > and > are so fiercely (or ferociously) discussed in india compared to the > lethargy and desilusionments prevailing in our parts ("que se vayan > todos!") > > Chewers from just back in EU, patrizio and Diiiinooos! > > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > subscribe in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> Shuddhabrata Sengupta The Sarai Programme at CSDS Raqs Media Collective shuddha at sarai.net www.sarai.net www.raqsmediacollective.net From 2tahamehmood at googlemail.com Mon Apr 20 05:10:09 2009 From: 2tahamehmood at googlemail.com (Taha Mehmood) Date: Mon, 20 Apr 2009 00:40:09 +0100 Subject: [Reader-list] Chronicle of a disaster foretold Message-ID: <65be9bf40904191640i20d0eb47yfa8e1b09e5745886@mail.gmail.com> Dear All With a steady rise in number of people inhabiting urban environments, perhaps it comes as no surprise to find an increase in level of a urban crisis discourse. As the story below indicates, Calcutta, it seems, is going to be a 'vulnerable city' in years to come. Regards Taha India: Chronicle of a disaster foretold Source: Copyright 2009, Telegraph Date: April 19, 2009 Byline: Jayanta Basu Original URL http://www.climateark.org/shared/reader/welcome.aspx?linkid=124944 In another 60 years, Calcutta will be the most vulnerable city in the world with respect to climate change, claimed a report released at a United Nations climate conference in Bali in 2007. It was followed by Mumbai and Dhaka. The prediction about Calcutta looks likely to come true. The initial findings from a World Bank-supported study on climate change impact on Calcutta, presented at a Bangkok conference recently by the state’s chief environment officer, Debal Roy, identifies the reasons that may lead to the city’s collapse. The study lists: * High population density (almost 25,000 per sq km in the Calcutta corporation area) * Construction on reclaimed wetlands * Incomplete drainage network * Presence of industries with high pollution potential like tanneries and secondary lead smelting and galvanising * Low road space * Inadequate treatment facility for solid and liquid waste; * Presence of hazardous installations in the city such as mobile phone towers. Natural factors have been listed too, such as: ● The occurrence of several cyclonic storms after the monsoons (showing increasing frequency over the years) ● The rise of the bed of the Hooghly because of silt deposition, which is being aggravated by the gradual lessening of fresh water flow from upstream ● The city’s proximity to the coast (it’s 180 km away) ● The fact that the city is connected by a major river to the sea. The analysis of data over the last 50 years shows that the groundwater level in the city has depleted consistently, while saline water has entered the city’s water-table. But above all, the study mentions the presence of a large slum population (nearly 50 lakh) living under severe conditions, which faces the greatest risk. Urban environment expert Tapas Ghatak, who was involved with the project, says that the explosive urban growth in low-lying areas where water collects easily, such as in Behala or near Kalyani, over the past three decades has not only put this huge population at the mercy of natural disasters, but also impacted the natural drainage of the city. It is no coincidence that most of these people belong to the low-income bracket. “If one takes a close look at the analysis, it seems as if by design the poorer people living in greater Calcutta are most vulnerable with respect to all kinds of climatic extremes,” said an expert associated with the analysis. A few “strengths” of Calcutta were identified by the study as well. The all-weather underground Metro railway network in the city, the natural sewage treatment facility in the East Calcutta Wetlands that does not require any energy and the mangroves in the Sunderbans are stated to be key warriors against extreme natural calamities. But the strengths are under threat, too. “It is a pity that the key strengths of the city, such as the East Calcutta Wetlands or the Sunderbans are being systematically weakened by the actions of a group of individuals with vested interests, more often than not being supported by the government’s inaction,” an environmentalist said. Copyright 2009, Telegraph From 2tahamehmood at googlemail.com Mon Apr 20 07:05:04 2009 From: 2tahamehmood at googlemail.com (Taha Mehmood) Date: Mon, 20 Apr 2009 02:35:04 +0100 Subject: [Reader-list] Five myths about the Muslim vote Message-ID: <65be9bf40904191835w4cacf198wbb8f0bc33748202d@mail.gmail.com> Dear All, In the post below Prof. Yadav analyze the voting tendencies of the mythical 'Indian Muslim' and comes with a conclusion that, ' their political and electoral behaviour is no different from that of any other community'. The myths surrounding 'Indian Muslims' according to Prof.Yadav are- 'First, they vote in large numbers and participate more in politics, much more than the rest of the electorate. Secondly, they vote ‘en bloc’ for one candidate or party. Thirdly, Muslim voters are more ‘strategic’ in their voting and tend to hold back their decisions until the last moment. Fourthly, they are less autonomous in their decision making and more likely to be influenced by clerics or traditional community leaders, guided more by pan-Islamic or community issues rather than by quotidian interests. Finally, they are less supportive of democracy than the rest of the population.' Please read the article below for more. What I find interesting is that even in these popularly held assumptions about Muslims there is a dichotomy, otherwise how could Muslims 'vote in large numbers', as indicated by myth number one and still be 'less supportive of democracy' as assumption number four would like us to believe. Not that voting is the sole criteria for showing one's support for democracy but surely it is an important aspect if one wants to support democracy isn't it? With warm regards Taha http://www.hindu.com/2009/04/20/stories/2009042053731200.htm Five myths about the Muslim vote There is a body of evidence that shows their political and electoral behaviour is no different from that of any other community, says Yogendra Yadav There are five very common beliefs about the political behaviour of Indian Muslims. First, they vote in large numbers and participate more in politics, much more than the rest of the electorate. Secondly, they vote ‘en bloc’ for one candidate or party. Thirdly, Muslim voters are more ‘strategic’ in their voting and tend to hold back their decisions until the last moment. Fourthly, they are less autonomous in their decision making and more likely to be influenced by clerics or traditional community leaders, guided more by pan-Islamic or community issues rather than by quotidian interests. Finally, they are less supportive of democracy than the rest of the population. The belief is that the Indian Muslim harbours a deep sense of alienation vis-À-vis the political system and feels excluded from the democratic mainstream. This view assumes that Muslims are an extraordinary political community, distinct and internally monolithic. Some of these assumptions conflict with others. Yet, there is something about modern India and Islam that generates political myth making. The supposition is that unlike other social groups, divisions of region, class, age, gender and caste either do not matter or play a very secondary role in shaping the politics of the Indian Muslims. These perceptions are shared by a wide section: Muslims and non-Muslims, political activists and laypeople. Like all stereotypes, they contain an element of truth which is distorted and blown out of all proportion. Let us examine each of the five beliefs in the light of the available evidence. The impression that the community turns out in large numbers to vote stems from the fact that constituencies with a high concentration of Muslims (above 30 per cent) tend to have a higher turnout. But this is largely due to communal polarisation, a phenomenon that leads both Muslims and Hindus to vote in larger numbers. In any case, the number of such constituencies is very small. Muslims constitute 13.4 per cent of the country’s population, and perhaps make up a smaller percentage of the electoral roll. Most Muslims live in constituencies where they do not account for even 10 per cent of the electorate. Election studies The evidence gathered by the National Election Studies (NES) carried out by CSDS shows that the Muslim turnout is not very different from the rest of the electors. In the last four general elections, the turnout among Muslims was 59 per cent while the all-India figure was 60 per cent. In fact, the figures in 2004 suggest the turnout among Muslims was much lower than average. When it comes to more active forms of engagement such as participation in election campaigns, there is virtually nothing that separates Muslims from Hindus or indeed from any other religious minority. Education and class are factors that play a role here, but not religion. Muslims are as likely to declare themselves members of a party or identify with a political party (though a little more likely to dislike a party) as Hindus. The evidence on Muslim voting preference in general elections does not validate the image of Muslims as a ‘vote bank.’ In 2004, the Congress and its allies got 53 per cent of the Muslim vote while the BJP and its allies got about 11 per cent. The other big vote-getter outside these two was the Samajwadi Party at 16 per cent. That is hardly en bloc voting. If we go down to the State level, we find that the Muslim vote tends to consolidate. Still, nowhere near enough to suggest they vote en bloc. Muslims resort to en bloc voting only in States such as Rajasthan, Gujarat, Madhya Pradesh and Delhi when faced with situations of no-choice, when the real competition is between the Congress and the BJP. The Muslim support for the Congress goes down in States such as Andhra Pradesh and Assam, where there is a third option. So does it in Kerala and West Bengal, where the BJP or its allies are not real competitors. In general, the pattern of Muslim voting at the State level is similar to that of a large caste such as the Jats or Brahmins. Again, there is little evidence to support the third and the fourth beliefs that Muslim voters are influenced by considerations that set them apart from others. Like everyone else, Muslim voters are first of all influenced by the party, then by the candidate, followed by such things as caste. Muslim men and women are as influenced by clerics or others in deciding who to vote for as any other section of the population. As for making up their minds about who to vote for, Muslims are no more ‘strategic’ than others. Thirty-three per cent of Hindus surveyed said they made up their mind on the polling day or the day before that; the corresponding figure for Muslims was 31 per cent. Finally, on the question of democracy, the voting pattern in India provides solid evidence against the prevailing Islamophobia. Clearly, Indian Muslims are not opting out of democratic politics. There is no difference whatsoever between Hindus and Muslims in their stated support for democracy. This is borne out by the evidence from the NES 2004 and is supported by that in the State of Democracy in South Asia, a five-country comparison carried out by the CSDS. The evidence showing up these five beliefs as myths should be placed along with two well documented set of facts about Indian Muslims. The first set was brought home starkly by the Sachar Committee Report. It showed that Muslims are the not merely disadvantaged, but are also often a discriminated minority when it comes to education, employment, housing and economic opportunity. Muslim representation The second piece of information has been unearthed by an impressive analysis of the Muslim MPs and MLAs by Professor Iqbal Ansari. His data shows that, barring 1980 and 1984, Muslim representation has been less than half their share of the population. At the State level too, the proportion of Muslim representatives has been around half or less of their population share. The proportion improves in those States (Kerala, Assam, West Bengal) where there are concentrated pockets of Muslims or where there are parties that represent the community such as the Indian Union Muslim League (IUML) in Kerala, the Assam United Democratic Front (AUDF) in Assam and the Samajwadi Party (SP) in Uttar Pradesh. The proportion drops dramatically in States such as Rajasthan, Madhya Pradesh and Gujarat where the Muslim population is dispersed and the BJP constitutes one pole of a bipolar political system. Dovetail the five myths and these two facts about Muslim politics and we begin to see the political tragedy of the Indian Muslim. Like the African-American population in the United States, they are a neglected constituency. In that country, the Republicans are not keen to do anything to improve their lot as they know they won’t get the black vote. As for the Democrats, they don’t do very much either for they know they will get their votes all the same. The myth about a homogenous Muslim vote bank serves to keep the Muslim community as a political hostage — earlier one of the Congress and now one of the Congress and regional parties such as the SP and the Rashtriya Janata Dal (RJD). Against this background, the 2009 elections offer an opening for Indian Muslims. In many States, newer formations are coming up to challenge the monopoly of established claimants to the Muslim ‘vote bank.’ The AUDF in Assam is challenging the monopoly of the Congress, the Milli Council in Uttar Pradesh is challenging the SP, the RJD is faced with the rise of pasmanda (backward) Muslim politics in Bihar, and the IUML faces the People’s Democratic Party (PDP) in Kerala. True, much of this challenge comes from the quarter of what can be called regressive and communal politics. Many of these new formations may prove to be short lived and opportunistic. But in a way, their existence and growth represent a desire in the community to break away from being treated like a political hostage and to address its economic backwardness. [This article draws upon an ongoing research project in collaboration with Dr. Sanjeer Alam and Dr. Hilal Ahmed] From naeem.mohaiemen at gmail.com Mon Apr 20 08:04:16 2009 From: naeem.mohaiemen at gmail.com (Naeem Mohaiemen) Date: Mon, 20 Apr 2009 08:34:16 +0600 Subject: [Reader-list] BOMBAY: "Renting while Muslim" Message-ID: India's Muslims See Bias in Housing Recent Increase Is Blamed on Islamist Terrorist Attacks in Mumbai Last Fall By Emily Wax Washington Post Foreign Service Sunday, April 19, 2009 MUMBAI -- The sunny apartment had everything Palvisha Aslam, 22, a Bollywood producer, wanted: a spacious bedroom and a kitchen that overlooked a garden in a middle-class neighborhood that was a short commute to Film City, where many of India's Hindi movies are shot. She was about to sign the lease when the real estate broker noticed her surname. He didn't realize that she was Muslim, he said. Then he rejected her. It was just six weeks after the November Mumbai terrorist attacks and Indian Muslims were being viewed with suspicion across the country. He then showed her a grimy one-room tenement in a Muslim-dominated ghetto. She felt sick to her stomach as she watched the residents fight over water at a leaky tap in a dark alley. "That night I cried a lot. I was still an outcast in my own country -- even as a secular Muslim with a well-paid job in Bollywood," said Aslam, who had similar experiences with five other brokers and three months later is still sleeping on friends' sofas. "I'm an Indian. I love my country. Is it a crime now to be a Muslim in Mumbai?" In the months after the brazen three-day Mumbai terrorist attacks, stories like Aslam's are common, even among some of the country's most beloved Bollywood actors, screenwriters and producers in India's most cosmopolitan city. The accusations of discrimination highlight the often simmering religious tensions in the world's biggest democracy, where Muslim celebrities can be feted on the red carpet one minute and locked out of quality housing the next. The phenomenon has become known here as "renting while Muslim." It raises questions that go to the heart of India's identity as a secular democracy that is home to nearly every major religion on the planet. Although India has a Hindu majority, it also has 150 million Muslims, one of the largest Muslim communities in the world. "The new generation wants a better India that isn't bogged down in religious strife," said Junaid Memon, 34, a Muslim Bollywood director who is trying to promote religious harmony through his films and his Facebook site. "We shouldn't be an India that ghettoizes all Muslims to apartments near a mosque. This is a real test for modern India." With national elections across India that began Thursday and last a month, some Muslim activists and Bollywood film directors are raising the issue with political parties and trying to form a voting bloc. "This election, we have to talk about housing discrimination against Muslims," said Zulfi Sayed, a Muslim actor who is outspoken about the issue and is courting Hindus who agree with him. "In a shining India, this shouldn't be still such a common practice." Muslims have long served as an important swing vote in India, since Hindus are increasingly divided among nearly 200 regional parties. Historically, India's Congress party won elections with the help of the Muslim vote by running on a platform of promoting religious diversity. The opposition Hindu nationalist Bharatiya Janata Party has, at times, used anti-Muslim sentiment to court votes while pledging to keep Hindu heritage alive. India blames the Pakistan-based Islamist militant group Lashkar-i-Taiba for the November attack in which 10 gunmen left more than 170 people dead, including 40 Indian Muslims. Many Muslims here feared the attacks would unleash cycles of revenge killing of the sort that have recurred throughout India's modern history, from the violence of partition between India and Pakistan in 1947 to the 1992 riots in Mumbai. In the days after November's Mumbai attacks, Muslims from all corners of society united, holding candlelight vigils with a message to protest terrorism and pledge loyalty to India. In the end, there was no communal violence. But across the country, reports of housing discrimination have increased. Afroz Alam Sahil, 21, a student activist at Jamia Millia Islamia College in New Delhi, said that more than a dozen students from states such as Uttar Pradesh and Bihar -- which have large Muslim populations -- have been unable to find housing since the Mumbai attacks. "Some Muslim friends have dropped out of college because they have nowhere to stay," Sahil said. "There is intense suspicion. Sometimes I ask myself why I was born Muslim." Rana Afroz, a Muslim editor with the newspaper the Hindu, is investigating the issue after spending three months unable to find a landlord willing to rent to her and her husband. "It is ridiculous that I have to prove to non-Muslims that I am not making bombs in my kitchen," she said. "Is this really the modern India I live in?" In India, Muslims are often segregated, and they experience high poverty rates and low literacy. Although they make up nearly 14 percent of India's population, they hold fewer than 5 percent of government posts and are just 4 percent of the student body in India's elite universities, according to a 2006 government report. But there are few issues more emotional than housing, especially in Mumbai, formerly known as Bombay, India's pulsating city of dreams where aspiring farmers and filmmakers come from across the country to seek fame and fortune. "The ethos of Bombay is a city open to the world. The Muslims of this city feel that way, too. But the real question is why do we as Indian Muslims always have to be proving our loyalty?" asked Nawman Malik, a popular Bollywood producer who spent months searching for an apartment. Mumbai has always had tensions over what are known here as "vegetarian buildings," where meat eaters are not allowed to live and are thus seen as devices to keep out Muslims and lower-caste Hindus. Those kinds of buildings have become more common in middle-class and posh neighborhoods as more merchants and industrialists from the neighboring state of Gujarat, where vegetarian Hinduism is the norm, migrate to India's richest city. Managers of vegetarian buildings say they don't want the smell of meat in their hallways. But they often also explain their rules by saying they are worried about security and want like-minded residents to live together. "Say you check one renter and they seem okay. But then they go to mosque and bring back their bearded friends and those friends are terrorists," said Raj Pathak, a vegetarian-building manager in downtown Mumbai. "Why do we have to live with such fears?" Muslims, who have seen housing discrimination and the number of vegetarian buildings spike after every terrorist attack, see the issue as blatant discrimination. "Everyone knows the vegetarian-only restriction is code language for 'No Muslims,' " said Naved Khan, a Muslim real estate broker who is trying to help Bollywood's Muslims find housing. On a recent afternoon, Aslam, the producer, hung out at a cafe, as she sometimes does so she doesn't get on the nerves of those she is staying with. She wore jeans and a hooded sweat shirt. Until January, she was living with a Hindu roommate. Then their lease ended. Her roommate was getting married. "So I thought I would get my own place as a successful adult," said Aslam, who had come to Mumbai from Kolkata with dreams of landing a Bollywood job. "My mom was really proud of me. Now she's really upset." A broker recently showed her a house in a working-class neighborhood. "It looked haunted. But I was denied even that," she said. Another broker gave her advice: "Madam, live with a Hindu roommate. Only then will you get a flat." Special correspondent Ria Sen in New Delhi contributed to this report. From kmvenuannur at gmail.com Mon Apr 20 08:57:08 2009 From: kmvenuannur at gmail.com (Venugopalan K M) Date: Mon, 20 Apr 2009 08:57:08 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Taliban Gunmen Murder Leading Womens Rights Activist in Afghanistan( fwded link to Alternet ) Message-ID: <1f9180970904192027u37619095g24c48f2f012b0e57@mail.gmail.com> http://www.alternet.org/waroniraq/136637/taliban_gunmen_murder_leading_afghan_women%27s_rights_activist/ -- http://venukm.blogspot.com/ From bangalorefilmsociety at gmail.com Mon Apr 20 12:08:56 2009 From: bangalorefilmsociety at gmail.com (Bangalore Film Society ,) Date: Mon, 20 Apr 2009 12:08:56 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Voices from the Waters 2009: Call for Entries In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: - *Call For Entries* *Voices from the Waters 2009* *4th International Water Film Festival, Bangalore* * * Bangalore Film Society, Arghyam, Svaraj- Society for Voluntary Action Revitalization and Justice, Finger Lakes Environmental Film Festival, Ithaca College, USA (FLEFF) Mountainfilm in Telluride, USA, Alliance Francaise de Bangalore, Charter of Human Responsibilities and Water Journeys - Campaign for Fundamental Right to Water are organizing the fourth edition of the biggest international film festival on water- Voices from the Waters 2009 from Friday 4th September, 2009 to Monday 7th September, 2009. Established in 2005 to promote among the public an awareness of the myriad water-issues affecting our everyday lives either directly or indirectly and as a platform for alternate voices and views rarely heard in mainstream, Voices from the Waters started as a Bangalore-based Environmental Film Festival and over the 2007 and 2008 editions grew to be one of the largest, most diverse and dynamic platforms of debate, dialogue and celebration of the precious resource, the blue gold, life itself - water. We invite you to be a part of the festival by contributing short, documentary, animation and feature films (DVD format only) with English subtitles on water and related issues. *If you have a film in under any of the following categories:* 1. Water Scarcity, 2. The Dams and the Displaced, 3. Water Harvest, 4. Water Struggles/conflicts, 5. Floods and Droughts, 6. Global Warming and Climate Change, 7. Impact of Deforestation on Water Bodies, 8. Water, Sanitation and health, 9. River Pollution, 10. The Holistic Revival of Water Bodies, 11. Water and Life You can consider sending it to us. Please note that the categories are loosely conceived and your film does not have to necessarily adhere to them while focusing on the larger theme of water. Please find the entry form at www.voicesfromthewaters.com *Submission Deadline: 31st July 2009* *Guidelines:* Entries to the Film Festival must include 1. DVD of the film (with English subtitles, if required) 2. A completed and signed copy of the entry form 3. 3 high-resolution stills of the film (can be sent via email) 4. A high-resolution photograph of the director (can be sent via email) Promotional materials are welcome. There is no entry fee. All submitted films will be subject to a selection process by eminent members of the festival jury. Applicant must pay for shipment of films to Voices from the Waters. Submitted films will not be returned but will be part of Voices from the Waters library, one of the largest resources in the world for films on water. Voices from the Waters is conceived as a traveling film festival. The selected films after being premiered in Bangalore at the main event will be taken across to educational institutions, non governmental organizations, small towns and villages across India. From kmvenuannur at gmail.com Mon Apr 20 13:01:30 2009 From: kmvenuannur at gmail.com (Venugopalan K M) Date: Mon, 20 Apr 2009 13:01:30 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] fwded: Socialism for Tomorrow: Some Reflections (Mike Lebowitz) Message-ID: <1f9180970904200031t4fd90acdo50785aaa50ffbcf7@mail.gmail.com> ---------- Forwarded message ---------- From: Sukla Sen To: greenleft_discussion , Anti_Bush_Database , foil-l Date: Sun, 19 Apr 2009 16:13:42 +0530 Subject: Socialism for Tomorrow: Some Reflections http://www.socialistvoice.ca/?p=379 April 12, 200921st Century Socialism on the Move – Reflections on ‘The Path for Human Development’ *By Ivan Drury. *Within an otherwise bleak reality of capitalist crisis, Mike Lebowitz has provided us with an eloquent restatement of the case for socialism – *The Path for Human Development: Capitalism or Socialism?* This short text is now circulating widely in Venezuela, in Spanish, as a pocket-sized pamphlet, has been published in *Monthly Review,* and is about to be published in Canada in pamphlet format by Socialist Project. This is not the first text Lebowitz has published on the need to argue, fight for, and build socialism. The Path was written on the foundation of Lebowitz’s 2004 book* Build It Now!* Both works were written with the Bolivarian revolution in Venezuela in mind. This is no accident. Lebowitz, a professor from Canada, has been living in Venezuela for years and has been an active participant in the Bolivarian revolution. The imprint of that revolutionary process is strongly stamped on this short work. *The Path* argues that: 1. Full development of creative human potential is the goal of life for human beings. 2. This full development is impossible under capitalism. 3. Socialism – protagonist democracy in the economy and all aspects of social life – is the path to human development. *Path breaking: a return to a socialist offensive* In the minds of many workers and anti-capitalist activists, the positive attributes of the socialist goal are obscured by the monsters of 20th century bureaucratic states. The general points raised by *The Path* stand as corrections to this legacy of Stalinist horrors. Such states that claimed the mantle of communism have nothing in common with Lebowitz’s “development of human potential.” *The Path* states, “Our goal cannot be a society in which some people are able to develop their capacities and others are not: we are interdependent, we are all members of a human family. The full development of all human potential is our goal.” This recalls the manuscripts of the young Marx, where he sketches the blocks capitalism puts up against the free development of the creative, “sensuous” life of people. Lebowitz returns this theme in asking, “What do we all want?” and answers “To be all that we can be.” >From decades of defense and retreat, in which socialism has been defined by excuse or apology for Stalinist crimes, *The Path* forges, yes, a path. It is a return to the offensive – defining the ideological terrain of 21st Century Socialism. *Internationalism at the heart of The Path.* There are no We workers and Those workers in The Path. “The struggle between capitalists and workers (…) revolves around a struggle over the degree of separation among workers,” Lebowitz points out. “The premise is not at all that we have the individual right to consume things without limit but, rather, that we recognize the centrality of ‘the worker’s own need for development.’ ” And at the same time, “As a human being in human society, you also have the obligation to other members of this human family to make certain that they also have this opportunity, that they too can develop their potential.” *The Path* does not draw any national borders around this human question. For revolutionaries in imperialist countries this must sound loudly. At a time of great capitalist crisis and especially given the organizational and public-political weakness of the left, there is a great danger that the angers of many workers be directed at constructed Others: immigrants, racialized people, and particularly at people racialized as Islamic. *The Path* proposes “human society,” the “human family” – in other words, internationalism – as the axis of struggle. It demands equal access by all to everything each needs for their personal development. *A direct appeal to workers in imperialist countries* *The Path*’s rejection of a purely economic measure of standards of living is especially prescient. In the larger context of universal human development, he argues, money is not the point. This does not cancel out the important and constant struggles for improvements in the economic sphere, but reminds us that these struggles are part of a bigger picture. From that point of view, “Whether workers wages are high or low is not the issue any more than whether the rations of slaves are high or low.” Lebowitz argues that the working class has in common – regardless of wage levels – a spiritual poverty based in alienation from the fruits of their labour. He sees consumerism – even and perhaps especially for workers who make “good money” – as substitution for meaning, within an alienated condition: “We try to fill the vacuum of our lives with the things we are driven to consume.” So, on top of its internationalist appeal, *The Path* challenges the “well-paid” worker to reexamine what we really want from life for ourselves and those we love. and whether capitalism will allow these desires. For those revolutionary activists (like me) who vacillate daily on the question of whether the imperialist/colonialist country working class has revolutionary potential, this challenge is encouragement not to lose hope amongst the details. *The vicious circle of capital* Lebowitz points out the difficulty of advancing revolutionary ideas – even within capitalist crisis. But where Jim Stanford, Canadian Union of Auto Workers economist, reaches for a neo-Keynesian outlook out of hesitations with socialism (seewww.socialistvoice.ca/?p=367), Lebowitz maintains that such difficulty is precisely why revolutionary ideas must be sown through practice. “No crisis necessarily leads people to question the system itself. People struggle against specific aspects of capitalism … but unless they understand the nature of the system, they struggle merely for a nicer capitalism, a capitalism with a human face.” He outlines what he calls the “vicious circle of capitalism” where people without are compelled to sell their labour power to fulfill their material needs of survival. Then, having consumed, they are compelled anew to “produce for capital’s goals.” These “phases are interdependent, you cannot change one without changing them all.” *The virtuous circle of socialism* Against the “vicious circle” of capitalism, Lebowitz advocates what he calls the “virtuous circle” of socialism. Here his points may be less familiar to anti-capitalists and workers skeptical regarding socialism. Lebowitz’s ideas begin with the concept of human development, are worked out through understanding the inhuman laws of capitalism, defined through working out its opposite, and developed by returning again to his premise of human development. Lebowitz outlines how socialism can and must accommodate all levels of human need – not just the material. The Path sees material security as the precondition for universal spiritual, cultural, creative development. *The Path* outlines the “virtuous circle” of socialism: “We begin with producers who live within a society characterized by solidarity” who “enter into an association in order to produce for the needs of society and in this process develop and expand their capacities as rich human beings. Thus the product of their activity is producers who recognize their unity and their need for each other.” *Protagonism, the state, and socialist struggle* Lebowitz paints a vivid and living picture of the formation of a post-capitalist society in utero, through Venezuela’s Bolivarian cooperatives and other base organizations. He poses these revolutionary organizations as the foundations upon which post-capitalist society will be constructed. He argues for the Venezuelan concept of “protagonism.” By creating mass organizations (in workplaces and in the neighborhoods) people can take control over the direction of their lives and satisfaction of their desires. Protagonism is a path to and, at the same time, the developing definition of a revolutionary democracy which can only be born of practice. This is an important imaging. It is critical that we conceptualize and live the revolutionary process as a great organism and not as a vanguard atop a complacent mass. *The Path* asks and answers the question of why we should fight for socialism, but it is important to note some questions it leaves hanging. *Capitalist protagonism* If workers and other oppressed people are not protagonist today – in capitalist society – then who is? Workers’ protagonism (by “workers” I mean all working and oppressed peoples, to include Indigenous people, poor unemployed people, farmers, unofficial workers, etc.) can only be built through overturning protagonism as we know it – capitalist protagonism. *The Path* does not fully deal with capitalist protagonism, or what Antonio Gramsci called hegemony, but many times Lebowitz points in this direction. Capitalist protagonism is embodied in the state. Lebowitz points out that “capital creates the state it needs.” While Lebowitz talks about economic regulation and ongoing “primitive accumulation” or capitalist expropriation, it is also possible to extract a broader generalization. The state includes the government and all its national and international institutions. Through these protagonist bodies, the state is joined arm in sleeve with capital. Whether the mass deregulation and privatization of neo-liberal reforms or mass bailouts of crisis-hobbled banks, auto companies and mortgage firms, the state carries out these demands of capital. And when Chilean President Salvador Allende (to pick an example not so far from Venezuela), threatened the protagonism of capital within the government itself, another branch of the state – the army generals – smashed him and the Chilean socialist movement with terrible violence and murder. The Venezuelan experience proves that it is possible for class struggle to be carried out within the halls of capitalist protagonism. But it also shows the limits of the possible within a capitalist state apparatus. What we see at play in Venezuela is a constant battle between opposing protagonisms – the capitalist and the workers – in open struggle for power. This struggle must end with workers extending workers’ protaganist democracy to all aspects of life and all fields of production by depriving the capitalist class of the state, what Lebowitz calls “capital’s ultimate weapon.” Lebowitz does not deal with this directly, but he does point out that capital “never stops trying to undermine any gains that workers have made either through their direct economic actions or through political activity.” As Marx and Engels outlined it in the *Communist Manifesto*: “The first step in the revolution by the working class is to raise the proletariat to the position of ruling class, to win the battle of democracy.” Anything less than abolishment of the capitalist state leaves the capitalist class a ready weapon for counter-revolution, and leaves working people the prospect of losing at any moment all gains fought for and won. *The Path as weapon against capitalist barbarism* In the introduction to *The Path*, Mike Lebowitz explains that he intended it as a weapon “in the struggle against barbarism.” But a weapon is only effective if used. The Path is written to be studied in groups, and it deserves such attention – both from seasoned veterans of the socialist and anti-capitalist movements and from people who have never read a Marxist essay or been to a demonstration before. The Path educates and challenges in its reasoned appeals to revolutionary practice. The publication of *The Path* can be important for the regeneration of the international socialist movement. Today workers all over the world are afraid and wondering what will become of them and why. *The Path* not only poses answers to the questions of why, but imagines how life could be different, how a better world is possible and what it might look like. It could not have been published at a more critical time. *The Path for Human Development* has been published online by *Monthly Review* athttp://monthlyreview.org/090223lebowitz.php and by Socialist Project athttp://www.socialistproject.ca/upload/lebowitz.pdf. From sub_sengupta at yahoo.co.in Mon Apr 20 13:11:27 2009 From: sub_sengupta at yahoo.co.in (subhrodip sengupta) Date: Mon, 20 Apr 2009 13:11:27 +0530 (IST) Subject: [Reader-list] BOMBAY: "Renting while Muslim" In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <35426.20717.qm@web94715.mail.in2.yahoo.com> Just that ever since independance first Mumbai has never influenced any growing surge for working class values, or any good regime of democracy and business houses for their own benefits, struggle among workers always decreases wage-surplus ratio to minimum have tolerated this. Example, high cost of food and living in mumbai vs wages earned there do not leave any impressive account of improvement of working class which has rather devalued under consumerism. Even the mall culture etc is to support or drain anything thats left with them. Definitely feudal war-mongers who are rather good at retaining the status-quo reigned, but now the scene has worsened to brink. The question I ask here is leave Aslam, how many hindu's would like to go and settle in a land of riots and terorism?  The misery caused by reigning capital and increasing prices have been thrown on certain sections and outsiders rather than thinking about appropiation problem. And common man, watchingtainted films out there believes in the dream. What? Yes, a drift of high-skilled workers out of mumbai can cause a partial drift of capital. But in such a place where investment is so high movement is expensive, and these people being abused are not most affluent but middle class. Another way would be raising these sentiments through films, movies more subtlely, to show the changing culture and threat lies from upper buergeoise sector, not petty businessmen. I have got accounts of Students in Mumbai beeen beaten up? If due to abject poverty such harsh feelings exists, wages or jobs is not the questionj, the level is higher, resourse constraint and planned centralisation is reason. Why is evry good thing concentrated in Pune and Mumbai, why not outside? Is Mumbai only Maharashtra, ney the lure of hefty profits runs into the blood of even the working sons of the soils. If scare jobs is question, surely wages are alreay high, why not react that with another naxalite movement. Someone has to take lead and teach this nexus a leasson, why not Aslam herself. Slowly the drift of Capital due to intense violence will give some time for alternative system and these working proffessionals to establish themselves. Surely this was a film-maker not an taxi-driver who appeared but question is not that. This is an oppurtunity of change due to growing potentials of people like aslam who struggle and Contradictions arising within this structure, I'd not like to name, due to squeezing out of middle tier, who are now in excess, unemployment of smaller capitalists now find this struggle and doubt-politics useful one kind of capital trying to chase out challengers. Increasing crime would also be a standpoint where in murder case boutioque owner closed her shop, though Delhi is Crime capital, middle class business people for new oppurtunities, can indeed support a movement, against a regime where even Schools and colleges were not spared. Where Media houses are restrained their support is unlikely as the capital flowing into them are in alliance with these fascist forces, within capitalism. Clearly BJP joining hands with countries biggest bigot, speaks loads for this. Now befor more restraints are put down in name of opening new industries, there's already a huge potential, even in recession in manufacfturing sector, something should happen. Hopefully one good development or contradiction has been reducing influence of Mumbai with development of NCR, GUjarat, Bangalore and other states, Yet mumbai remains to be place with high salaries, and these states themselves see fascist tendencies even as Communist states have revised ideology, the periphery seems dwindling with undesirable armed movements remaing, spreading greater movement. So if a grand restart is needed why not in center itself where concentration is possible, thanks to scale of contradiction, rather than periphery where political and economic problems are more. ________________________________ From: Naeem Mohaiemen To: sarai list Sent: Monday, 20 April, 2009 8:04:16 AM Subject: [Reader-list] BOMBAY: "Renting while Muslim" India's Muslims See Bias in Housing Recent Increase Is Blamed on Islamist Terrorist Attacks in Mumbai Last Fall By Emily Wax Washington Post Foreign Service Sunday, April 19, 2009 MUMBAI -- The sunny apartment had everything Palvisha Aslam, 22, a Bollywood producer, wanted: a spacious bedroom and a kitchen that overlooked a garden in a middle-class neighborhood that was a short commute to Film City, where many of India's Hindi movies are shot. She was about to sign the lease when the real estate broker noticed her surname. He didn't realize that she was Muslim, he said. Then he rejected her. It was just six weeks after the November Mumbai terrorist attacks and Indian Muslims were being viewed with suspicion across the country. He then showed her a grimy one-room tenement in a Muslim-dominated ghetto. She felt sick to her stomach as she watched the residents fight over water at a leaky tap in a dark alley. "That night I cried a lot. I was still an outcast in my own country -- even as a secular Muslim with a well-paid job in Bollywood," said Aslam, who had similar experiences with five other brokers and three months later is still sleeping on friends' sofas. "I'm an Indian. I love my country. Is it a crime now to be a Muslim in Mumbai?" In the months after the brazen three-day Mumbai terrorist attacks, stories like Aslam's are common, even among some of the country's most beloved Bollywood actors, screenwriters and producers in India's most cosmopolitan city. The accusations of discrimination highlight the often simmering religious tensions in the world's biggest democracy, where Muslim celebrities can be feted on the red carpet one minute and locked out of quality housing the next. The phenomenon has become known here as "renting while Muslim." It raises questions that go to the heart of India's identity as a secular democracy that is home to nearly every major religion on the planet. Although India has a Hindu majority, it also has 150 million Muslims, one of the largest Muslim communities in the world. "The new generation wants a better India that isn't bogged down in religious strife," said Junaid Memon, 34, a Muslim Bollywood director who is trying to promote religious harmony through his films and his Facebook site. "We shouldn't be an India that ghettoizes all Muslims to apartments near a mosque. This is a real test for modern India." With national elections across India that began Thursday and last a month, some Muslim activists and Bollywood film directors are raising the issue with political parties and trying to form a voting bloc. "This election, we have to talk about housing discrimination against Muslims," said Zulfi Sayed, a Muslim actor who is outspoken about the issue and is courting Hindus who agree with him. "In a shining India, this shouldn't be still such a common practice." Muslims have long served as an important swing vote in India, since Hindus are increasingly divided among nearly 200 regional parties. Historically, India's Congress party won elections with the help of the Muslim vote by running on a platform of promoting religious diversity. The opposition Hindu nationalist Bharatiya Janata Party has, at times, used anti-Muslim sentiment to court votes while pledging to keep Hindu heritage alive. India blames the Pakistan-based Islamist militant group Lashkar-i-Taiba for the November attack in which 10 gunmen left more than 170 people dead, including 40 Indian Muslims. Many Muslims here feared the attacks would unleash cycles of revenge killing of the sort that have recurred throughout India's modern history, from the violence of partition between India and Pakistan in 1947 to the 1992 riots in Mumbai. In the days after November's Mumbai attacks, Muslims from all corners of society united, holding candlelight vigils with a message to protest terrorism and pledge loyalty to India. In the end, there was no communal violence. But across the country, reports of housing discrimination have increased. Afroz Alam Sahil, 21, a student activist at Jamia Millia Islamia College in New Delhi, said that more than a dozen students from states such as Uttar Pradesh and Bihar -- which have large Muslim populations -- have been unable to find housing since the Mumbai attacks. "Some Muslim friends have dropped out of college because they have nowhere to stay," Sahil said. "There is intense suspicion. Sometimes I ask myself why I was born Muslim." Rana Afroz, a Muslim editor with the newspaper the Hindu, is investigating the issue after spending three months unable to find a landlord willing to rent to her and her husband. "It is ridiculous that I have to prove to non-Muslims that I am not making bombs in my kitchen," she said. "Is this really the modern India I live in?" In India, Muslims are often segregated, and they experience high poverty rates and low literacy. Although they make up nearly 14 percent of India's population, they hold fewer than 5 percent of government posts and are just 4 percent of the student body in India's elite universities, according to a 2006 government report. But there are few issues more emotional than housing, especially in Mumbai, formerly known as Bombay, India's pulsating city of dreams where aspiring farmers and filmmakers come from across the country to seek fame and fortune. "The ethos of Bombay is a city open to the world. The Muslims of this city feel that way, too. But the real question is why do we as Indian Muslims always have to be proving our loyalty?" asked Nawman Malik, a popular Bollywood producer who spent months searching for an apartment. Mumbai has always had tensions over what are known here as "vegetarian buildings," where meat eaters are not allowed to live and are thus seen as devices to keep out Muslims and lower-caste Hindus. Those kinds of buildings have become more common in middle-class and posh neighborhoods as more merchants and industrialists from the neighboring state of Gujarat, where vegetarian Hinduism is the norm, migrate to India's richest city. Managers of vegetarian buildings say they don't want the smell of meat in their hallways. But they often also explain their rules by saying they are worried about security and want like-minded residents to live together. "Say you check one renter and they seem okay. But then they go to mosque and bring back their bearded friends and those friends are terrorists," said Raj Pathak, a vegetarian-building manager in downtown Mumbai. "Why do we have to live with such fears?" Muslims, who have seen housing discrimination and the number of vegetarian buildings spike after every terrorist attack, see the issue as blatant discrimination. "Everyone knows the vegetarian-only restriction is code language for 'No Muslims,' " said Naved Khan, a Muslim real estate broker who is trying to help Bollywood's Muslims find housing. On a recent afternoon, Aslam, the producer, hung out at a cafe, as she sometimes does so she doesn't get on the nerves of those she is staying with. She wore jeans and a hooded sweat shirt. Until January, she was living with a Hindu roommate. Then their lease ended. Her roommate was getting married.. "So I thought I would get my own place as a successful adult," said Aslam, who had come to Mumbai from Kolkata with dreams of landing a Bollywood job. "My mom was really proud of me. Now she's really upset." A broker recently showed her a house in a working-class neighborhood. "It looked haunted. But I was denied even that," she said. Another broker gave her advice: "Madam, live with a Hindu roommate. Only then will you get a flat." Special correspondent Ria Sen in New Delhi contributed to this report. _________________________________________ reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. Critiques & Collaborations To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with subscribe in the subject header. To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> Now surf faster and smarter ! Check out the new Firefox 3 - Yahoo! Edition http://downloads.yahoo.com/in/firefox/ From aliens at dataone.in Mon Apr 20 13:24:55 2009 From: aliens at dataone.in (bipin) Date: Mon, 20 Apr 2009 13:24:55 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] . Re: The Communist Conspiracy ! References: <98f331e00904182310r6a13342ckfc79b1b8f4fd6225@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <017001c9c18d$4d9ca1f0$0201a8c0@limo> Dear Prakash, May be from my earlier posting, you might be of the opinion that anti communist campaign is going on. What I have elaborated was hard truth only. Anyways, please answer following questions: (1) WB was one of the prosperous state earlier and Kolkata prosperous city even after independence, what happened? Communists ruled for more than 25 years what happened, things more worsened. They have ruined the state by enforcing labor unions. The key reason for govt. employees inefficiency is their job securities. This securities make them lazy and lethargic. We give examples of Japan, China for their remarkable progress in short span. Why? Because of their efficiency and loyal to their employer. They don’t have labor unions. If anybody does not work with efficiency and discipline, they should be allowed to fired off. Is it not necessary to make changes in the labor laws, or suspension of govt. employer for not showing his work efficiency or lethargic in his work? If no, then you have to sell or run with partnership of private party is the only solution to make it profitable. Else with the loss of govt companies, from where the resources will come for subsidies as you believe. In the reputed or professional private company have also job security if they work efficiently and properly. However, actually we need drastic changes in labor laws. (2) When overall interest rate were reduced so accordingly PF interest rate must be reduced. But, communist did not allow it. Why? In PF list there are 10/12% or maximum 15% people are their of the total population. By not reducing PF interest rate, you are giving injustice to remaining 85% of the population. Just answer me this question. Don’t ignore it. Rigid communist mind will never understand this. And also those in the PF list are getting best salary and job securities than rest of the people. So, why should they be treated specially. (3) Why Communist opposed nuclear agreement? Nuclear agreement is necessary since our existing nuclear power plants required fuel like Uranium and without that they would have been scrapped. For New nuclear power plant viability is the next issue. If it is not viable, definitely one should not go for it. Your oppose might be with US, but nuclear agreement is applicable to all global countries not only US. (4) is communist secular? if you consider communists as secular than answer: why they allow infiltration of Bangladeshi’s since many years and giving even ration card for what purpose. Just to take their vote. If they have stopped them from the starting only inspite of warning given to WB govt. many times would have been consider real secular. Actually this is the real case of National Security Act – NSA to be implement. (5) Are you respect your senior leaders? Basu is great leader and he wanted to make reform in WB in his last decade rule, but your communist bosses did not allowed him. So, Buddhdev is suffering the same today. If Basu would have given free hand in starting of 2000, WB progress would have been there positively. thanks Bipn ----- Original Message ----- From: "prakash ray" To: Sent: Sunday, April 19, 2009 11:40 AM Subject: [Reader-list] . Re: The Communist Conspiracy ! > Dear all, > > I am posting the opinions of some eminent scholars and artists on the role > and importance of the Left. Nobody should accuse me of electioneering for > the Left. It is also my response to sinister anti-Left propaganda being > carried out here by certain people. > > Thanks > > PKR > > 'It was because of the efforts of the Left Parties that the ruling > Congress > was unable to implement many of its projected measures designed to favour > big business at the cost of the people. The Left Parties have > uncompromisingly fought against the Congress government’s increasing > subservience to US imperialism and growing closeness to Israel. They have > also unflinchingly stood up for secularism, women’s rights, affirmative > action for minorities and protection of dalits’ interests.' > -Irfan Habib > > > 'The formation of a modern Indian nation out of an extraordinarily > disparate > population riven by millennia of caste, class, gender and other forms of > oppression is a marvel of our time. It is a legacy of our prolonged > anti-colonial struggle that was founded upon an implicit “social contract”, > whose main elements were: electoral democracy based on universal adult > franchise, secularism, civil liberties, the end of caste and gender > oppression, and the building of an egalitarian society. The BJP which > unleashes pogroms against minority communities threatens this contract and > hence the integrity of this nation. The Congress, though a secular force, > violates this contract in a different way, as its economic policies > produce > some of the world’s top billionaires together with thousands of peasant > suicides. The Left alone can defend this contract and hence this nation, > because of its commitment to an anti-communal and anti-imperialist > agenda.' > > -Prabhat Patnaik > > > 'Neoliberal policies were first implemented in India by a Congress > Government. The BJP-led NDA government greatly expanded those policies, > with > accelerated privatisation and deregulation. After Congress returned to > power > in 2004, heading the UPA, it deepened those same policies further. The > result is jobless growth and credit-fed middle-class consumption. Even as > GDP grows, wealth flies upward: more dollar billionaires at the top; > thousands of peasant suicides at the heart of society. Had the Left not > prevented it from further deregulating our financial system, we would be > facing a crisis as sharp as that of the US or UK. Victory for either of > these parties in the forthcoming elections promises more of the same — > even > worse, because their policies have made us much more vulnerable to havocs > of > the global recession.' > > - Aijaz Ahmed > > > 'The role of the Left, both in the pre-independence and post-independence > period, has been crucial in keeping the Indian society, polity and culture > imbued with secular values. At the present juncture any weakening of the > Left will give a great fillip to the communal and retrograde forces.' > > - Saeed Mirza > > 'The Left in India has been in the forefront of meeting the challenge of > communal forces who have attacked the freedom of expression of artists and > scholars in the name of cultural nationalism. Whenever artists have come > under attack, the Left has unhesitatingly defended them.' > > -Shamshad Husain > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > subscribe in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> From kmvenuannur at gmail.com Mon Apr 20 13:50:02 2009 From: kmvenuannur at gmail.com (Venugopalan K M) Date: Mon, 20 Apr 2009 13:50:02 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Fwded:Statement A slaughter of Tamils April 13, 2009 Message-ID: <1f9180970904200120o6def3462x312bf75b2cbfdfd6@mail.gmail.com> III. http://socialistworker.org/2009/04/13/slaughter-of-tamils Statement A slaughter of Tamils April 13, 2009 - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - The Sri Lankan government is intensifying its ongoing war on the country's Tamil minority with a new assault on alleged fighters of the Liberation Tigers of Tamil Eelam--or "Tamil Tigers"--inside a "safety zone" in the country's Vanni region that had been set up as a haven for civilians. In recent weeks, the government has reportedly pushed Tamil rebels--who have been fighting the government since the 1980s--out of urban areas into a small pocket of land. The escalation of violence has had a devastating impact on civilians, putting "more than a quarter of a million civilians at great risk," according to Yolanda Foster, Amnesty International's Sri Lanka researcher. Sri Lankan President Mahinda Rajapaksa has so far rejected the possibility of a cease-fire and called on the rebels to surrender, despite the reports of mounting civilian casualties. Here, we reprint a statement by Concerned South Asian Citizens calling on the Sri Lankan government to stop the slaughter, and for the international community to intervene. - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - WE ARE appalled at reports of mass deaths of Sri Lankan Tamils trapped in a small area of the Vanni region in northern Sri Lanka. Both electronic and print media have reported the death of over 700 Tamils in the last couple days, with only a section of them being identified as Liberation Tigers of Tamil Eelam (LTTE, or "Tamil Tigers") cadres, meaning therefore that a vast number of those killed are civilians trapped in the area. There are serious apprehensions that a thermobaric bomb--a bomb that uses a fuel-air explosive capable of creating overpressures equal to an atomic bomb--has been used in this mass killing. For the last several weeks, we have expressed our concerns about this imminent massacre. In fact, we pointed out that the possibility of almost close to 150,000 Tamilians getting affected was not just most probable, but real. We also pointed out that the Sri Lankan government had been dangling this as the fruit of its declared "war on terror" as the "final victory"--and that the government was pushing for the "final solution" before the soon-to-ensue Sinhala New Years Day, falling on April 14, 2009. Our worst fears are turning true. The sheer scale of artillery and explosive attacks and the massive deaths of Tamils points to the situation of the Vanni region becoming the graveyard for thousands of Tamil civilians. Now the possible usage of thermobaric bomb by the mindless Sri Lankan army and government has taken the situation beyond limits. Sri Lankan President Rajapaksa himself has threatened a "complete rout and annihilation" of Tamils. Sri Lanka has turned into a terror state, though [the government] keeps blaming the LTTE as a terrorist outfit. The brazen and insulting manner by which Sri Lankan authorities have attacked any person or agency seeking accountability of the Sri Lankan government to human rights standards can be gauged by the fact that several British parliamentarians were forced to take up the issue of being branded terrorists by the Sri Lankan officials in a debate in the UK House of Commons! Even former UN High Commissioner for Human Rights Louise Arbor and UN Special Rapporteur on Extra-judicial, Summary or Arbitrary Executions Philip Alston were not spared. The reality is that the Sri Lankan government has utilized the so-called "war on terror" as a cover to systematically destroy all democratic processes and institutions in Sri Lanka. The government and its minions have turned the state into a terror apparatus, crushing not just the Tamils, but also others challenging its actions. As a result, numerous non-Tamil, Sinhalese citizens have also fallen prey to the Sri Lankan terror state. Journalists have been the major targets, with 19 reporters, both Tamil and Sinhala, being killed in the last two years; over 35 exiled, driven away from the country or silenced; and numerous publications closed down. The assassination of Lasantha Wickramathunge, editor of the *Sunday Leader*, a widely respected Sri Lankan weekly, in January highlights the fate of anyone challenging the ruling dispensation. - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - RESPECTED AND expert UN bodies have investigated and brought out reports about different aspects of the breakdown of democratic and judicial systems. Recently, on February 9, 2009, 10 top UN experts issued a statement sharing the deep concern of the United Nations high commissioner for human rights over the rapidly deteriorating conditions facing civilians in the Vanni region and the significant number of civilian casualties. They also deplored the restrictions on humanitarian access to conflict areas which heightens the ongoing serious violations of the most basic economic and social rights. We are extremely concerned that in this racist, genocidal war, the Sri Lankan government is using banned and illegal weapons and munitions, including thermobaric bombs, which kill vast numbers of people across a wide territory. Sri Lankan security forces have a long record of using cluster bombs and engaging in targeted aerial bombings of civilian areas, which are banned under the Geneva Conventions. The Sri Lankan government has never denied the use of cluster bombs. Across the world, there is a tremendous outpouring of anguish and agony at the prospects that surviving Tamil civilians will be annihilated through the use of weapons of mass destruction. It is therefore critical that the UN urgently intervene and restrain the Sri Lankan government from using banned bombs, explosives and weaponry. It is very important that the truth about the actual use of these weapons of mass destruction, including thermobaric bombs, be independently verified and the source of supply identified. If, indeed, these horrific weapons have been used, the international community should immediately initiate prosecution of the highest functionaries of the Sri Lankan state, and the government of the country that supplied these bombs, for the commission of war crimes and crimes against humanity. We would also like to point out that the humanitarian crisis has been made worse because the Sri Lankan government has banned independent observers of UN agencies, the International Committee of the Red Cross and other independent institutions from operating in the war zone. It is of utmost importance that independent observers are sent both to monitor the situation as also to ensure humanitarian aid reaches the area. The innocent Tamil civilians have been living a precarious life, without food, water and health supplies for the last several weeks. Emaciated, starved, severely malnourished and seriously injured, the women, children, aged persons and remaining men are already dying. They deserve the protection that can be offered by concerned world citizens who, by demanding an end to the war, will also be asserting a chance for these innocent men, women and children to live. As citizens of South Asia, we therefore demand that the UN and the international community effectively intervene to ensure immediate cessation of the brutal and savage war in Sri Lanka and ensure immediate humanitarian relief to the suffering thousands caught in the middle of the war. We also call upon the governments in the South Asian region--the government of India, Pakistan, Bangladesh, Nepal, Bhutan and Maldives--to intervene forcefully to stop the genocidal war that threatens peace not just in Sri Lanka, but in all of South Asia. Jointly issued by: *K.G. Kannabiran*, national president, PUCL, Hyderabad; Justice *Rajinder Sachar*, former chief Justice, Delhi High Court; *Arundhati Roy*, New Delhi; *Pushkar Raj*, general secretary, PUCL; *Pamela Philipose*, Women's Feature Service; *Swami Agnivesh*, New Delhi; Prof. *Amit Bhaduri*, professor emeritus, Jawaharlal Nehru University, New Delhi; Rev. *P.J. Lawrence*, bishop of the Church of South India, Diocese of Nandyal; *Praful Bidwai*, columnist, New Delhi; *Sumit Chakravorty*, editor, *Mainstream Weekly*, New Delhi; *Tapan Bose*, New Delhi; *Rita Manchanda*, South Asia Forum for Human Rights, Nepal; Prof. *Kamal Mitra Chenoy*, School of International Studies and president, JNU Teachers Association, Jawaharlal Nehru University, New Delhi; *Ernest Deenadayalan*, Bangalore; *Pradip Prabhu*, Kashtakari Sanghatana, Dahanu/Mumbai; *Prashant Bhushan*, advocate, Supreme Court, New Delhi; *M.G. Devasahayam* IAS (Retd), Chennai; *Sukumar Murlidharan*, journalist, New Delhi; Rev. *Dhyanchand Carr*, Madurai; *Henri Tiphagne*, *People's Watch*, Madurai, MSS Pandian, Chennai; *Sushil Pyakurel *, former commissioner, Human Rights Commission of Nepal, Kathmandu; *Mubashir Hasan*, Lahore, Pakistan -- http://venukm.blogspot.com/ From rajen882uppinangadi at gmail.com Mon Apr 20 13:57:21 2009 From: rajen882uppinangadi at gmail.com (Rajen Uppinangadi) Date: Mon, 20 Apr 2009 13:57:21 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Varun tortured in the jail, detention of vendetta politics. In-Reply-To: <61164a90904200126s5ecbc61bmb1d8b362417362ad@mail.gmail.com> References: <61164a90904172324v3bd70018v8bfbd3055f3fa06e@mail.gmail.com> <1f9180970904182359kbc6e94av210b6974b4831a3@mail.gmail.com> <61164a90904190318h34c335a0u53608782c360d256@mail.gmail.com> <1f9180970904190650q3f541900s9c909cb99f57cc02@mail.gmail.com> <61164a90904200126s5ecbc61bmb1d8b362417362ad@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <61164a90904200127u4fe12e24saa2a62bd46aa7112@mail.gmail.com> On Mon, Apr 20, 2009 at 1:56 PM, Rajen Uppinangadi < rajen882uppinangadi at gmail.com> wrote: > Hi, > > Venu, > > you have raised very fundamental question in your post, about the > system of governance as you are well aware, that system is derived from the > constitution which we gave to ourselves and rule of laws is the system of > which we are all part and parcel, the system has good , bad and the ugly > sides whether you and me like it or not, there are rules and rules are > broken, bent, subverted whether we like it or not, deviant individuals are > those in the system who break, bend, subvert the system of rule of laws and > governance in this process becomes a sufferer. Thus discriminated individual > has genuine grouse against such governance irrespective of being theist, > atheist, or of any faith, faith is for personal domain, not for governance, > and caste is again by vocation of the individual, not by birth, but by his > work. In the present context, brith does not determine the vocation and > opportunities, education and skills are for all to have better life and > future under good governance. > > As to my dismay for conversion is for the tool it has become in the hands > of clergies to explot the already exploited, as you rightly said, the caste > discrimination continues after conversions, temporary relief from poverty > and instead if the governance gives opportunity to earn the decent living, > get the skills and education for decent livelihood, the faith has no role > except at home to pray as one wants., or does not want.! > > Regards, > > Rajen. > > > On Sun, Apr 19, 2009 at 7:20 PM, Venugopalan K M wrote: > >> >"..What the system of governance should have been done is done by the >> deviant individuals of the society from different faiths, which is very >> violation of our constitution..." >> >> 1. Where do you get "the system of governance" ? >> >> 2. Why do you suggest that deviant individuals of the society from >> different faiths should not have their say by legal and constitutional >> means ? >> >> 3. What are the features of their 'deviance' that you find so bad in >> them, to disqualify them? >> Having allegiance to Christianity, Islam, or Marxism, or simply to >> agnosticism or atheism? >> >> 4. Why so much of hue and cry on proselytizing , while it is a >> perfectly constitutional activity? >> Even if you argue that poor including dalits and adivasis in such >> cases are primarily driven by material incentives like a semblance of >> dignity in social life(which they are doubtful of getting in most >> cases) or even money itself, rather than spiritual concerns, your >> violent campaigns against proselytizing would not be justified. >> >> As a post script, I would like to add that I have no special love for >> Malayali people.,,On the contrary, I'd love to talk more about my >> less fortunate compatriots who live in constant fear of hordes taking >> over the streets to cure the 'deviants' and to protect their 'nation'. >> Keralites are a people comprising Ezhavas, Mujahid Muslims, Nairs, >> Sunni Muslims,Jama-ati Muslims,Nairs,Ravuthers ,Nambiars, Vellalas, >> Menons, Pulayas,Vannans,Parayas,Nampoothiris, Kurichyas, >> Pisharadis,Kurumas, Brahmans,Tamil Brahmans, Chettis , Roman >> Catholics, Protestants, Christians, Nadars Hindu and Christian, Latin >> Catholics an Sunnis and Jamaatis and lots of such varying >> identities.(You can of course, re-group them into four categories >> depending on their accessibility or non accessibility to reservations- >> FCs, OBCs, STs and ,SCs).We live here with lesser threats of bullying >> thanks to our democratic( you can say even left) tradition. >> Regards, >> Venu. >> >> >> >> >> >> >> On Sun, Apr 19, 2009 at 3:48 PM, Rajen Uppinangadi >> wrote: >> > Hi, >> > Venu, >> > >> > thanks for the sermons about the thoughts that I expressed which >> are >> > true to best of my knowledge, you have your perceptions, I do not wish >> to >> > contradict your perceptions, as I know that you have special love for >> the >> > malyalis , but for me religion or faith is personal, and bad governance >> has >> > made things difficult for the citizens, be they, tribals, adivasis or >> > others, the good governance if it is in place, the faith remains where >> it >> > is, in private domain, a hungry stomach, neglected by the system of >> > governance, lack of opportunities for the neglected, make them go for >> alms >> > distributed in the name of the only saviour, thus increasing numerical >> > strength of the voters, thus very democratic rule is undermined as they >> vote >> > not for the govrnance but for the "help" given which should have come >> from >> > good governance, not from any faith or its propaganda. >> > >> > As to violence, it is to be noted with regret that violence begets >> more of >> > it, whether in the name of faith or politics, and the goons who killed >> a 82 >> > year old swami were exactly doing that so that they could polarise the >> votes >> > in kandhamal, just as any other party in the game of garnering votes. >> When >> > Singur and Nandigram happened with rapes and killings, again it was the >> same >> > game of polarsing the votes by the athiest sections of the society, for >> > their plank of development on the dead bodies of poor tillers.The same >> is >> > the instance of Gujarath, that 59 bodies were burnt alive in a coach is >> sure >> > shot for more violence, and I do not justify violence from anyone as the >> > govrrnance has failed totally to act in time, thus giving rise , rather >> > outsourcing the delivery of justice to media and NGOs. What the system >> of >> > governance should have been done is done by the deviant individuals of >> the >> > society from different faiths, which is very violation of our >> constitution, >> > hope you think over these thoughts. >> > >> > It is known fact that young generation is looking for jobs, and >> gainful >> > employments, bettering their life skills so that they can build a future >> > for themselvs and the next generation, but when reservation is based on >> > caste and faiths, instead of economic and need based criteria, we see >> the >> > lopsided development of few sections of society, discrimination in >> > governance becomes the order, thus the issues of frustrated individuals >> > becomes movements like naxalism, aggrieved working class becomes a trade >> > union, thus all reflect the lack of will to have good governance in >> society. >> > >> > In democratic rule if discrimination is the order of the system, then >> the >> > elements of discrimination are faith, caste and region and religions. >> Thus >> > you can see the gaining power of clergies, in all faiths exhorting the >> > followers to vote to those whom they consider as deliverer of good, >> again >> > defeating the democracy. >> > >> > Regards, >> > >> > Rajen. >> > >> > >> > On Sun, Apr 19, 2009 at 12:29 PM, Venugopalan K M < >> kmvenuannur at gmail.com> >> > wrote: >> >> >> >> Mr Rajen, You seem to speak true to your conscience..but may I ask you >> >> what authority you have to speak 'on behalf ' of people who opt for >> >> Christianity or whatever religion, when it comes to tribals and >> >> adivasis?Do you propose to suggest that the advivasis and tribals are >> >> people without any right to exercise free wills? What kind of >> >> criticism is that when you allege that nuns of kerala drive sensual >> >> pleasure besides monetary gains by engaging in proselytizing. What is >> >> your locus standi here? If you truly respect the Constitution, please >> >> try to acknowledge that the nuns have their constitutional right to >> >> propagate their faith as well as the tribals and adivasis do have >> >> theirs to convert. But you simply do not have the right to stop by >> >> force,though you can express your displeasure against proselytizing. >> >> Instead, you would do better to ponder over why these poor people damn >> >> the 'Hindu'-linked identity of untouchables ,panchamas, rakshasas, >> >> asuras, which only gives them perpetualized penury and susceptibility >> >> to horrendous forms of institutionalized atrocities. >> >> Lastly, what is that you stand to loose,if at all these nuns do enjoy >> >> sensual pleasures? I'm very happy to see this kind of hate speech in >> >> your posts not because I like its content,but because it betrays one's >> >> true colours, and people can always see through it...!.. >> >> Still, you don't have any formal disagreement with the idea of human >> >> rights, freedom of conscience, democracy and such finer aspects of >> >> civility of mind..you would even object someone treating you as an >> >> apologist of Godse for that reason, and that's great about you, if I'm >> >> permitted to say. Perhaps that's the only reason why we talk to each >> >> other. >> >> But you seem to deny any issue of human rights existing there in >> >> Gujarat and you don't find a case of human rights violation there in >> >> Orissa, when christians are raped and killed for their alleged acts of >> >> proselytizing/conversion. Your idea of human rights is punctuated with >> >> sort of right to impunity and right to propagate hatred and violence >> >> against christians,muslims ,adivasis,dalits and women of each tribe >> >> including that of yours! >> >> >> >> Best wishes, >> >> Venu. >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> On Sat, Apr 18, 2009 at 11:54 AM, Rajen Uppinangadi >> >> wrote: >> >> > Dear All, >> >> > >> >> > It is amusing to see the human rights activists, that too senior ones >> >> > rushing to sabarmathi jail to see if the human rights are violated of >> >> > bomb >> >> > blasts accused, because they belong to a particular faith, and the >> >> > amusing >> >> > comments and counters in the list for another person who was detained >> in >> >> > NSA >> >> > for "alleged" remarks that he would be defender of another community >> >> > against >> >> > traitors of the nation, even self defence in case of attack and rape >> is >> >> > not >> >> > possible for the community if numerical strength is higher in >> society, >> >> > they >> >> > have to "tolerate" the insults.? >> >> > >> >> > As to the human rights committee and its "senior" activists, it can >> be >> >> > seen >> >> > that one John Dayal, is the clergy of evangelists, rolling in foreign >> >> > funds >> >> > for "uplifting " of the poor souls in poor regions of India with >> priests >> >> > and >> >> > nuns of seminaries from Kerala who being unemployed, find the jobs of >> >> > god's >> >> > work quite pleasurable with lots of sensuous pleasure factored in., >> >> > along >> >> > with good pay and incentives for harvesting the souls of tribals and >> >> > poor >> >> > pagans. >> >> > As to accused in jails, who misbehave, who indulge in violence over >> >> > trivial matters because they have support of "activists" who are >> again >> >> > creation for vote bank politics is the real tragedy in democracy as >> >> > these >> >> > human right activists are more concerned of rights of inhumans in >> >> > society >> >> > than the rights of victims of their inhuman acts. >> >> > >> >> > Democracy where sections get extra governance at the cost of >> >> > discrimination >> >> > to other sections, is not good governance. This extra governance is >> by >> >> > and >> >> > large due to the vote banks, because of the faith. Such a shame, and >> as >> >> > to >> >> > vasectomies, and varun, Anupam has to remember that the coersion in >> >> > the >> >> > emergency days led to the defeat of the party and ballot answered the >> >> > brute >> >> > force in most humble and non violent manner. >> >> > >> >> > Also, if ones parents or father is deviant it does not necessarily >> >> > follow >> >> > that son is also deviant. To say that he will be defending his >> community >> >> > against barbaric acts of fanatics is not an issue that indian media >> >> > overhyped at the time of elections, and media has set the agenda for >> the >> >> > parties and hate is the media game for awards and rewards.That a >> >> > nation >> >> > with one billion people should hear and watch the discussion about an >> >> > "honest" prime minister and a prime minister in waiting talk of weak >> and >> >> > strong , which are again relative subjective terms , is national >> waste >> >> > of >> >> > energy, instead, if only these weak PM and strong PM in waiting used >> >> > their >> >> > energies to enlighten the voters with what would be issues of good >> >> > governance in the nation, it would greatly faciltate better >> >> > understanding of >> >> > what type of leadership the nation is going to get. >> >> > >> >> > Regards, >> >> > >> >> > Rajen. >> >> > _________________________________________ >> >> > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. >> >> > Critiques & Collaborations >> >> > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with >> >> > subscribe in the subject header. >> >> > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list >> >> > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> -- >> >> http://venukm.blogspot.com/ >> > >> > >> >> >> >> -- >> http://venukm.blogspot.com/ >> > > From kmvenuannur at gmail.com Mon Apr 20 14:00:17 2009 From: kmvenuannur at gmail.com (Venugopalan K M) Date: Mon, 20 Apr 2009 14:00:17 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Hindutva: Projections And Reality! By Ram Puniyani 15 April, 2009 Countercurrents.org Message-ID: <1f9180970904200130h66427637x13c2f31c1060f7d7@mail.gmail.com> -- http://venukm.blogspot.com/ Hindutva: Projections And Reality! By Ram Puniyani 15 April, 2009 Countercurrents.org RSS is an organization where succession of the top post, Sarsanghchalak, takes place by nomination by the outgoing Chief. Recently K.Sudarshan, outgoing one, nominated Mohan Bhagwat as the new Chief (March 2009). On taking over Bhagwat pronounced that Hindutva is an emancipatory concept. The last time the word Hindutva created the confusion was in the case of corrupt electoral practices by Manohar Joshi, who said that if Shiv Sena BJP comes to power they will turn Maharashtra into first Hindu state in the country. He had used the word Hindutva for his politics. The matter went up to the court, and due to the confusions around the word Hindutva, court ruled that Hindutva is a way of life! This came in handy for RSS combine to wriggle out and to assertively use the word in their political campaigns. Now we hear that Hindutva is an emancipatory concept. What is emancipation? In Indian context emancipation stands for the process which leads to equality of dalits and women. It also stands for the dignified status of Adivasis and workers. Many of these processes started during the freedom movement as an accompaniment of the struggle against British rule. While we were witnessing these processes steered by the likes of Bhagat Singh, Ambedkar and Gandhi, the country also saw the politics by Muslim League, Hindu Mahasabha and RSS. This latter trio based their concept of politics around religious nationalism. For Muslim League it was Islamic Sate, Pakistan and for Hindu Mahasabha, RSS it was Hindu nation. Muslim League derived its ideology from the name of Islam and Hindu Mahsabha and RSS developed the term Hindutva, as the guiding ideology for Hindu nation. There is lot of parallel between the pattern of ideology of Muslim League and Hindu Mahsabha, RSS. They all kept aloof from the freedom movement and the associated processes of social transformation of caste and gender. Freedom movement was not only for freedom from the British rule it also symbolized the values of Liberty, Equality and Fraternity, the values which are emancipator for those oppressed by feudal rule of Rajas and Nawabs, and the associated clergy (Mullahs, Pastors and Brahmins). Talking of Hindutva in particular, the term was coined by Vinayak Damodar Savarkar in his book "Who is a Hindu" in 1923. Hinduism is not a prophet based religion. Originally word Hindu began as a geographical category, for all those living on east of river Indus. Later all the religious traditions, from caste and gender hierarchy based Brahmanism to egalitarian streams like Nath, Tantra, Siddha and Bhakti all came to be covered under the umbrella of Hinduism. Brahmanism is the dominant tendency within this spectrum, and currently all things Brahminic are identified as Hinduism. Dr. Ambedkar pointed out that Hinduism is Brahminic theology. Savarkar defined Hindu as one who regards this land from Sindhu to Seas as Fatherland and Holy-land. In this definition all are included barring Muslims and Christians. Savarkar further went on to coin and define the word Hindutva. Hindutva, for him is total Hindu ness, a combination of Aryan race, Culture and values. In essence it came to mean a politics based on Brahminic values of birth based inequality of caste and gender. It gives the status of slaves to dalits and women. RSS picked up the concept of Hindutva from there. Hindu Mahasabha and RSS both stood for status quo in caste and gender relations. Over a period of time RSS politics did exhibit these values in practical form. Contrary to emancipation, RSS ideology wants not only status quo ante, it wants to push back whatever little process of transformation of Dalits and women has taken place during last few decades. Beginning with gender, RSS is an exclusively male organization. Its women wing is subordinate to it, it is Rashtra Sevika Samiti. Here, Swayamsevak for men, Sevika for women. The word swayam, self, is missing in women's organization. Lets be clear, according to all male dominated patriarchal organizations, Taliban , Fascists, Christian fundamentalists or RSS, women?s self is in the pocket of men. Women are subordinate, are property of men. So they are to be dictated, controlled. So one of RSS trained swayamsevak, Pramod Mutalik forms Shriram Sene and beats up women. They dictate that women should be doing or wearing, this that and the other. As far dalits are concerned Dr. Ambedkar goes on to assert that dalits need to learn, organize and struggle for their rights, for equality. RSS has come up with Samajik Samrasta Manch, to co-opt the dalits at subordinate position within the present social structure where dalits remain subjugated in the social system. RSS also has the ideology of integral humanism. This essential part of Hindutva politics argues that as the human body has different organs doing their different functions, similarly our society has different groups doing their job. A change in their roles will create disequilibrium, which will be detrimental to the smooth functioning of society. One does concede that the language of RSS is very subtle and clever, but its actions regularly show what it means. RSS is the Father of all other organizations working for Hindu nation, Hindutva. The politics it has unleashed through BJP, VHP, and Vanvasi Kalyan Ashram etc. does regularly show the real intent of RSS. Few samplers- BJP Vice-president Rajmata Scindia endorsing Sati tradition, VHP-leadership endorsing the killings of dalits in response to the killings of dalits in the aftermath of Gohana, on the issue of cow-slaughter. RSS repeatedly emphasizes the ancient glory of the times when Manusmriti, standing for slavery of women and shudras, was the rule. One is happy to know that the new RSS chief knows the word emancipation. So far so good, as he can't go beyond parroting this word as the meaning of the word is totally against the agenda of RSS, which is opposed to emancipation and stands for suppressing the low caste, and women in perpetual subjugation. From kmvenuannur at gmail.com Mon Apr 20 14:13:12 2009 From: kmvenuannur at gmail.com (Venugopalan K M) Date: Mon, 20 Apr 2009 14:13:12 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Noam Chomsky interviewed by Amy Goodman of "Democracy Now" Message-ID: <1f9180970904200143m6d55cc12jd91543975e192de@mail.gmail.com> -- http://venukm.blogspot.com/ Noam Chomsky interviewed by Amy Goodman of "Democracy Now" April 14, 2009 Full: AMY GOODMAN: Today, a conversation with one of the most important dissident intellectuals of our time, Noam Chomsky, on the global economic crisis, healthcare, the media, US foreign policy, the expanding wars in Afghanistan and Pakistan, and resistance to American empire. Noam Chomsky is a world-renowned linguist, philosopher, social critic, and Institute Professor Emeritus at the Massachusetts Institute of Technology. [...] AMY GOODMAN: Do you think President Obama is any different than President Bush when it comes to the economy? And if you were in the Congress, would you have voted for the bailouts and the stimulus packages? NOAM CHOMSKY: He's different. I mean, first of all, there's a rhetorical difference. But we have to distinguish the first and the second Bush terms. They were different. I mean, the first Bush term was so arrogant and abrasive and militaristic and dismissive of everyone that they offended, they antagonized even allies, close allies, and US prestige in the world plummeted to zero. Now, the second Bush administration was more—moved more toward the center in that respect, not entirely, but more, so some of the worst offenders, like Rumsfeld, Wolfowitz and others, were thrown out. I mean, they couldn't throw out Dick Cheney, because he was the administration, so they couldn't get rid of him. He stayed, but the others, a lot of them, left. And they moved towards a somewhat more normal position. And Obama is carrying that forward. He's a centrist Democrat. He never really pretended to be anything else. And he's moving towards a kind of a centrist position. He's very popular in Europe, not so much because of him, but because he's not Bush. So there is the kind of rhetoric that the European leaders and, in fact, the European population tend to accept. In fact, you know, even in the Middle East, where you'd think people would know better, they accept the illusions. And they are illusions, because there's nothing to back them up. So, yes, he is different from Bush. Same—on the economy, well, you know, the current Obama-Geithner plan is not very different from the Bush-Paulson plan. I mean, somewhat different, but circumstances have changed. So, of course, it's somewhat different. But it's still based on the principle that we have to—somehow, the taxpayer has to rescue the institutions intact. They have to remain intact, including the people who, you know, destroyed the economy. In fact, they are the ones who Obama picked to fix it up. [...] AMY GOODMAN: Why do you think Obama chose to surround himself? NOAM CHOMSKY: Because those are his beliefs. I mean, his support comes from the—his constituency is basically the financial institutions. Just take a look at the funding for his campaign. I mean, the final figures haven't come out, but we have preliminary figures, and it seems to be mostly financial institutions. I mean, the financial institutions preferred him to McCain. They are the main funders for both—you know, I mean, core funders for both parties, but considerably more to Obama than McCain. You can learn a lot from campaign contributions. In fact, one of the best predictors of policy around is Thomas Ferguson's investment theory of politics, as he calls it—very outstanding political economist—which essentially—I mean, to say it in a sentence, he describes elections as occasions in which groups of investors coalesce and invest to control the state. And he takes a look at the formation of campaign contributors, and it gives you a surprisingly good prediction of what policies are going to be. It goes back a century, New Deal and so on. So, yeah, it can predict pretty well what Obama is going to do. There's nothing surprising about this. It's the norm in what's called political democracy. [...] AMY GOODMAN: Your assessment of President Obama so far? NOAM CHOMSKY: Frankly, I never had any expectations. I wrote about it over a year ago. I thought then, and I think it's been confirmed, that he's essentially a centrist Democrat. He's moving back—I mean, the Bush administration was kind of off the spectrum, especially the first term. So he's moving things back toward the center with a kind of a public posture, which was recognized by the advertising industry. That's why they gave him the award for best marketing campaign, which—but as far as policy is concerned, unless he's under a lot of pressure from activist sectors, he's not going to go beyond what he's presented himself as in actual policy statements or cabinet choices and so on: a centrist Democrat, going to basically continue Bush's policies, maybe in a more modulated way. AMY GOODMAN: Do you see Afghanistan becoming an ever-expanded war in the next decade or so? Do you—now we're talking about doubling the US troops there. NOAM CHOMSKY: No, that's the way Obama and the Pentagon see it. In fact, they say so: this is going to be a long war, it's going to be extended, the US is going to take over the military side, and it's going to expand it, it's going to expand into Pakistan. And, I mean, we'll talk about development, but the focus will be on the military. Obama, right now, is trying to get NATO to cooperate, but recognizing that they're not going to send military forces. The populations are opposed. [...] AMY GOODMAN: The unmanned drones bombing Pakistan? NOAM CHOMSKY: Yeah, drones. And that has effects. So a lot of the worst fighting recently has been in the Bajaur province, right on the border. It's in Pakistan's side. And militants in the area have reported to the press that part of the reason is that an American drone attack hit a madrasa, a school, and killed about eighty people. Well, you know, they're "uncivilized barbarians"; they sort of don't like that. So they reacted. And now, one of the militants has said, "OK, we're going to bomb the White House," which is considered totally outrageous. But, you know, if we kill as we like, there's going to be a reaction. AMY GOODMAN: Where do you see American empire in ten, twenty, thirty years? NOAM CHOMSKY: Prediction in human affairs is a very low—has very little success, too many complications. The United States, I think, will come out of the economic crisis, very likely, as the dominant superpower. There's a lot of talk about China and India, and it's real, they're changing, but they're just not in the same league. I mean, both China and India have enormous internal problems that the West doesn't face. You get kind of a picture of this by looking at the Human Development Index of the United Nations. The last time I looked, India was about 125th or something. And I think China was about eightieth. And China would be worse, I think, if it wasn't such a closed society. In India, you sort of get better data, so you can see what's happening. China is kind of closed. You don't see what's going on in the peasant areas, which are in turmoil, you know. They have environmental problems. They have huge—hundreds of millions of people are kind of like at the edge of starvation. We don't have—you know, we have problems, but not those problems. And even the industrial growth, which is there—you know, for part of the population, there's been improvement. But when you take, say, India, where we know more, in the areas where high-tech industries developed—and it's pretty impressive. I've visited some of the labs in Hyderabad. You know, it's as good or better than MIT. But right nearby, the rate of peasant suicides is going up, very sharply, in fact. And it's the same source. It's the neoliberal policies, which privilege a certain sector of the population and a certain—and let the rest take care of themselves. [...] AMY GOODMAN: Noam Chomsky, Professor Emeritus at MIT, leading public intellectual of our day. If you'd like to get a copy of the full interview, part one and today's part two, with Noam Chomsky, you can go to our website at democracynow.org From rama.sangye at gmail.com Mon Apr 20 14:18:48 2009 From: rama.sangye at gmail.com (V Ramaswamy) Date: Mon, 20 Apr 2009 14:18:48 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] BOMBAY: "Renting while Muslim" In-Reply-To: <35426.20717.qm@web94715.mail.in2.yahoo.com> References: <35426.20717.qm@web94715.mail.in2.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <6ade4a8f0904200148n3139a5dfp664bdb7622f60d13@mail.gmail.com> Unfortunately the situation is the same or worse in "Leftist" Kolkata, which is one of the most communally divided cities in the country, where social or cognitive intercourse of Hindus with Muslims is minimal, and where the human development index of the city's Muslims (20% of the city population) is abysmally low. V Ramaswamy From kmvenuannur at gmail.com Mon Apr 20 14:53:14 2009 From: kmvenuannur at gmail.com (Venugopalan K M) Date: Mon, 20 Apr 2009 14:53:14 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Fwd: Varun tortured in the jail, detention of vendetta politics. In-Reply-To: <61164a90904200126s5ecbc61bmb1d8b362417362ad@mail.gmail.com> References: <61164a90904172324v3bd70018v8bfbd3055f3fa06e@mail.gmail.com> <1f9180970904182359kbc6e94av210b6974b4831a3@mail.gmail.com> <61164a90904190318h34c335a0u53608782c360d256@mail.gmail.com> <1f9180970904190650q3f541900s9c909cb99f57cc02@mail.gmail.com> <61164a90904200126s5ecbc61bmb1d8b362417362ad@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <1f9180970904200223r16849824h267066012ab2045f@mail.gmail.com> Dear Rajen, >"caste is again by vocation of the individual, not by birth, but by his work." While I can agree with the spirit of your post here, unfortunately,I would still object to your contention quoted above. This is the single biggest mendacity people ever could propagate about caste. At its best , a wishful thought and at the worst a typical pattern of denial of one of the most fundamental contradictions in society. This is going back to Pre-Ambedkarite understanding of caste and thus transpires to end up with a "pre- Constitutional" notion about "nation" sans many of its modern attributes of inclusiveness and citizenship. Regards, Venu. ---------- Forwarded message ---------- From: Rajen Uppinangadi Date: Mon, Apr 20, 2009 at 1:56 PM Subject: Re: [Reader-list] Varun tortured in the jail, detention of vendetta politics. To: Venugopalan K M Hi,   Venu,      you have raised very fundamental question in your post, about the system of governance as you are well aware, that system is derived from the constitution which we gave to ourselves and rule of laws is the system of which we are all part and parcel, the system has good , bad and the ugly sides whether you and me like it or not, there are rules and rules are broken, bent, subverted whether we like it or not, deviant individuals are those in the system who break, bend, subvert the system of rule of laws and governance in this process becomes a sufferer. Thus discriminated individual has genuine grouse against such governance  irrespective of being theist, atheist, or of any faith, faith is for personal domain, not for governance, and caste is again by vocation of the individual, not by birth, but by his work. In the present context, brith does not determine the vocation and opportunities, education and skills are for all to have better life and future under good governance.  As to my dismay for conversion is for the tool it has become in the hands of clergies to explot the already exploited, as you rightly said, the caste discrimination continues after conversions,  temporary relief from poverty and instead if the governance gives opportunity to earn the decent living, get the skills and education for decent livelihood, the faith has no role except at home to pray as one wants., or does not want.! Regards, Rajen. On Sun, Apr 19, 2009 at 7:20 PM, Venugopalan K M wrote: > > >"..What the system of governance should have been done is done by the deviant individuals of the society from different faiths, which is very violation of our constitution..." > > 1. Where do you get "the system of governance" ? > > 2. Why do you suggest that deviant  individuals of the society from > different faiths should not have their say by legal and constitutional > means ? > > 3. What are the features of their 'deviance' that you find so bad in > them, to disqualify them? > Having allegiance to Christianity, Islam, or Marxism, or  simply to > agnosticism or atheism? > > 4. Why so much of hue and cry on  proselytizing , while it is a > perfectly constitutional activity? > Even if you argue  that poor including dalits and adivasis  in such > cases are primarily driven by material incentives like a semblance of > dignity in social life(which they are doubtful of getting in most > cases) or even money itself, rather than spiritual concerns, your > violent campaigns against proselytizing would not be justified. > > As a post script, I would like to add that I have no special love for > Malayali people.,,On the contrary, I'd  love to talk more about my > less fortunate compatriots who live in constant fear of hordes taking > over the streets to cure the 'deviants' and to protect their 'nation'. > Keralites are a people comprising Ezhavas, Mujahid Muslims, Nairs, > Sunni Muslims,Jama-ati Muslims,Nairs,Ravuthers ,Nambiars, Vellalas, > Menons, Pulayas,Vannans,Parayas,Nampoothiris, Kurichyas, > Pisharadis,Kurumas, Brahmans,Tamil Brahmans, Chettis , Roman > Catholics, Protestants, Christians, Nadars Hindu and Christian, Latin > Catholics an Sunnis and Jamaatis and lots of such varying > identities.(You can of course, re-group them into four categories > depending on their accessibility or non accessibility to reservations- > FCs, OBCs, STs and ,SCs).We live here with lesser threats of bullying > thanks to our democratic( you can say even left) tradition. > Regards, > Venu. > > > > > > > On Sun, Apr 19, 2009 at 3:48 PM, Rajen Uppinangadi > wrote: > > Hi, > >      Venu, > > > >       thanks for the sermons about the thoughts that I expressed which are > > true to best of my knowledge, you have your perceptions, I do not wish to > > contradict your perceptions, as I know that you have special love for the > > malyalis , but for me religion or faith is personal, and bad governance has > > made things difficult for the citizens, be they, tribals, adivasis or > > others, the good governance if it is in place, the faith remains where it > > is, in private domain, a hungry stomach, neglected by the system of > > governance, lack of opportunities for the neglected, make them go for alms > > distributed in the name of the only saviour, thus increasing numerical > > strength of the voters, thus very democratic rule is undermined as they vote > > not for the govrnance but for the "help" given which should have come from > > good governance, not from any faith or its propaganda. > > > >   As to violence, it is to be noted with regret that violence begets more of > > it, whether in the name of faith or politics, and the goons who killed  a 82 > > year old swami were exactly doing that so that they could polarise the votes > > in kandhamal, just as any other party in the game of garnering votes. When > > Singur and Nandigram happened with rapes and killings, again it was the same > > game of polarsing the votes by the athiest sections of the society, for > > their plank of development on the dead bodies of poor tillers.The same is > > the instance of Gujarath, that 59 bodies were burnt alive in a coach is sure > > shot for more violence, and I do not justify violence from anyone as the > > govrrnance has failed totally to act in time, thus giving rise , rather > > outsourcing the delivery of justice to media and NGOs. What the system of > > governance should have been done is done by the deviant individuals of the > > society from different faiths, which is very violation of our constitution, > > hope you think over these thoughts. > > > >    It is known fact that young generation is looking for jobs, and gainful > > employments, bettering their life skills so that they can build a future > > for themselvs and the next generation, but when reservation is based on > > caste and faiths, instead of economic and need based criteria, we see the > > lopsided development of few sections of society, discrimination in > > governance becomes the order, thus the issues of frustrated individuals > > becomes movements like naxalism, aggrieved working class becomes a trade > > union, thus all reflect the lack of will to have good governance in society. > > > >  In democratic rule if discrimination is the order of the system, then the > > elements of discrimination are faith, caste and region and religions. Thus > > you can see the gaining power of clergies, in all faiths exhorting the > > followers to vote to those whom they consider as deliverer of good, again > > defeating the democracy. > > > > Regards, > > > > Rajen. > > > > > > On Sun, Apr 19, 2009 at 12:29 PM, Venugopalan K M > > wrote: > >> > >> Mr Rajen, You seem to speak true to your conscience..but may I ask you > >> what authority you have to speak 'on behalf ' of people who opt for > >> Christianity or whatever religion, when it comes to tribals and > >> adivasis?Do you propose to suggest that the advivasis and tribals are > >> people without any right to exercise free wills? What kind of > >> criticism is that when you allege that  nuns of kerala drive sensual > >> pleasure besides monetary gains by engaging in proselytizing. What is > >> your locus standi  here? If you truly respect the Constitution, please > >> try to acknowledge that the nuns have their constitutional right to > >> propagate their faith as well as the tribals and adivasis do have > >> theirs to convert. But you simply do not have the right to stop by > >> force,though you can express your displeasure against proselytizing. > >> Instead, you would do better to ponder over why these poor people damn > >> the 'Hindu'-linked  identity of untouchables ,panchamas, rakshasas, > >> asuras, which only gives them perpetualized penury and susceptibility > >> to horrendous forms of institutionalized atrocities. > >> Lastly, what is that  you stand to loose,if at all these nuns do enjoy > >> sensual pleasures? I'm very happy to see this kind of hate speech in > >> your posts not because I like its content,but because it betrays one's > >> true colours, and people can always see through it...!.. > >>  Still, you don't have any formal disagreement with the idea of human > >> rights, freedom of conscience, democracy and such finer aspects of > >> civility of mind..you would even object someone treating you as an > >> apologist of Godse for that reason, and that's great about you, if I'm > >> permitted to say. Perhaps that's the only reason why we talk to each > >> other. > >> But you seem to deny any issue of human rights existing there in > >> Gujarat and you don't find a case of human rights violation there in > >> Orissa, when christians are raped and killed for their alleged acts of > >> proselytizing/conversion. Your idea of human rights is punctuated with > >> sort of right to impunity and right to propagate hatred and violence > >> against christians,muslims ,adivasis,dalits and women of each tribe > >> including that of yours! > >> > >> Best wishes, > >> Venu. > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> On Sat, Apr 18, 2009 at 11:54 AM, Rajen Uppinangadi > >> wrote: > >> > Dear All, > >> > > >> > It is amusing to see the human rights activists, that too senior ones > >> > rushing to sabarmathi jail to see if the human rights are violated of > >> > bomb > >> > blasts accused, because they belong to a particular faith, and the > >> > amusing > >> > comments and counters in the list for another person who was detained in > >> > NSA > >> > for "alleged" remarks that he would be defender of another community > >> > against > >> > traitors of the nation, even self defence in case of attack and rape is > >> > not > >> > possible for the community if numerical strength is higher in society, > >> > they > >> > have to "tolerate" the insults.? > >> > > >> >  As to the human rights committee and its "senior" activists, it can be > >> > seen > >> > that one John Dayal, is the clergy of evangelists, rolling in foreign > >> > funds > >> > for "uplifting " of the poor souls in poor regions of India with priests > >> > and > >> > nuns of seminaries from Kerala who being unemployed, find the jobs of > >> > god's > >> > work quite pleasurable with lots of sensuous pleasure factored in., > >> > along > >> > with good pay and incentives for harvesting the souls of tribals and > >> > poor > >> > pagans. > >> >  As to accused in jails, who misbehave, who indulge in violence over > >> > trivial matters because they have support of "activists" who are again > >> > creation for vote bank politics is the real tragedy in democracy as > >> > these > >> > human right activists are more concerned of rights of inhumans in > >> > society > >> > than the rights of victims of their inhuman acts. > >> > > >> >  Democracy where sections get extra governance at the cost of > >> > discrimination > >> > to other sections, is not good governance. This extra governance is by > >> > and > >> > large due to the vote banks, because of the faith. Such a shame, and as > >> > to > >> > vasectomies, and varun,   Anupam has to remember that the coersion in > >> > the > >> > emergency days led to the defeat of the party and ballot answered the > >> > brute > >> > force in most humble and non violent manner. > >> > > >> > Also, if ones parents or father is deviant it does not necessarily > >> > follow > >> > that son is also deviant. To say that he will be defending his community > >> > against barbaric acts of fanatics is not an issue that indian media > >> > overhyped at the time of elections, and media has set the agenda for the > >> > parties and hate is the media game for awards and rewards.That  a > >> >  nation > >> > with one billion people should hear and watch the discussion about an > >> > "honest" prime minister and a prime minister in waiting talk of weak and > >> > strong , which are again relative subjective terms , is national waste > >> > of > >> > energy, instead, if only these weak PM and strong PM in waiting used > >> > their > >> > energies to enlighten the voters with what would be issues of good > >> > governance in the nation, it would greatly faciltate better > >> > understanding of > >> > what type of leadership the nation is going to get. > >> > > >> > Regards, > >> > > >> > Rajen. > >> > _________________________________________ > >> > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > >> > Critiques & Collaborations > >> > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > >> > subscribe in the subject header. > >> > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > >> > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> > >> > >> > >> > >> -- > >> http://venukm.blogspot.com/ > > > > > > > > -- > http://venukm.blogspot.com/ -- http://venukm.blogspot.com/ From phadkeshilpa at gmail.com Mon Apr 20 15:39:01 2009 From: phadkeshilpa at gmail.com (Shilpa Phadke) Date: Mon, 20 Apr 2009 15:39:01 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Fwd: Protest against Mumbai Mirror reportage of rape case In-Reply-To: <004701c9c198$dc6c88e0$0501a8c0@bishakha6bbb1b> References: <004701c9c198$dc6c88e0$0501a8c0@bishakha6bbb1b> Message-ID: Several women's groups protested the Mumbai Mirror's coverage of the TISS student's rape. A police complaint has been filed against the Mirror publishing her FIR (first info report to the police), which indirectly blew her identity and invaded her privacy. Please read about it on http://www.hindu.com/2009/04/19/stories/2009041960840900.htm or watch the protest on http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=maP3Ikkm5Rc and add your comments on the youtube link. And do spread - since the media won't necessarily cover a protest against its own actions. Bishakha __._,_.___ . __,_._,___ From kmvenuannur at gmail.com Mon Apr 20 16:20:31 2009 From: kmvenuannur at gmail.com (Venugopalan K M) Date: Mon, 20 Apr 2009 16:20:31 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] =?windows-1252?q?Fwd=3A_=5Bhumanrights-movement=3A1?= =?windows-1252?q?429=5D_Fwd=3A_Cock_and_Bull_Godhra_Report_=96_Exc?= =?windows-1252?q?lusive?= In-Reply-To: <21fc17440904200323s6f5eed6eq3760d8136f6f72ab@mail.gmail.com> References: <21fc17440904200323s6f5eed6eq3760d8136f6f72ab@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <1f9180970904200350o39de63b8kf1380320dcf5cfd6@mail.gmail.com> Cock and Bull Godhra Report – Exclusive I don’t know why Indian press including TOI has not yet analyzed Godhra Report that exposed gross incompetence of Modi government, abuse of judiciary and crookedness of judges’ hand picked by Modi. Was it bribed? These reports are monitored by Human Rights Organizations, tarnishing the image of Indian Judiciary and expose rotten Constitutional Institutions. http://home. gujarat.gov. in/homedepartmen t/downloads/ godharaincident. pdf 9. ---- No counsel for the Commission could be appointed because of some difficulties. --. 12. ------Thus in all, 46,494 statements/affidavi ts were received by the Commission. Out of them 2019 were statements/affidavi ts filed by the Government officers and 44445 statements/ affidavits were received from the public. Can we believe in Modi Gujarat that signed Rs.12 lakh crore MoU recently could not find any counsel to assist Godhra Commission in a state of 60million in 2000 days? Counsels study and analyze evidence in over hundred thousands of pages and are basically eyes and ears of the commission were denied to Godhra Commission in Gujarat . This left little option for Godhra Commission to toe the lines dictated by councils of state nominated by Modi. There is ample evidence of it in the Godhra Report. 31. Sabarmati Express train had arrived at Godhra railway station at 7.43 a.m. Its scheduled halt at Godhra railway station was of 5 minutes. During that halt of 5 minutes some incidents are stated to have happened. The Ramsevaks had a qurrel with Siddiq Bakar, a tea vendor. He was given two stick blows. Some other Ramsevaks had beaten one Siraj and also Mohmed Latika. The fourth incident stated to have happened was an attempt to abduct Sofiyabanu a Muslim girl standing on the platform by a Ramsevak by pulling her towards the train. During that halt at the Station, there was pelting of stones on the front side of the train, by the persons standing outside the station. Some passengers standing on the platform had also thrown stones towards those persons. Two police constables had made the passengers sit in the train and disperse the outsider. >From the last line of the Godhra Report when two constables were said to have disperse the crowd points to one thing only there were few miscreants not an organized crowd or mob – there was no preplanning and drivers had clear view ahead otherwise wouldn’t have started moving train. In pictures one could see high boundary wall run along rail track (there is no break in the wall as stated by Godhra Commission) so it was impossible for a mob to assemble and indulge in arson. 48. Shri Ramfersing, (W-40) working as a Line Inspector in the Telephone Department in Gujarat was returning with his family members from his native place in Uttar Pradesh. He had boarded the train at Lucknow . He had reservation for berths 62, 63 and 64 in coach no.S-6. He had found that berths reserved by him were occupied by the Karsevaks. Only after repeated requests made by him the Karsevaks had vacated only one lower berth for him and his family members. Satishkumar (W-41) had reservation for berths 33, 34 and 35 but had to be satisfied with one berth only which was vacated for him and his family by the Karsevaks. Govindsing, (W-46) an army Subedar had reservation for berth no. 9. That berth was occupied by female Karsevaks and they did not allow him to occupy that berth, He could manage to get one seat on berth no. 32. Punamkumari (W-49) was travelling with her father-in-law, mother-in-law, brother-in-law and her son and had reservation for berths 18, 19, 20 and 21. Only one berth was vacated by the Karsevaks for them. Lalanprasad (W-44) had reservation for berths 8 and 72. He was allowed to occupy only one berth. Shilaben Virpal (W-47) who was travelling with her husband and daughter-in- law had reservation for berths Nos.58, 59 and 61.The Karsevaks had refused to vacate those berths and, therefore, they had to sit on the floor near those berths. Ramnaresh (W-1015) had to sit with his family members near latrines along with 20 to 25 other persons who were already sitting there .He was not allowed to occupy any of the berths reserved by him . So also passenger Virpal had to sit on the floor of the coach. He had complained to the T.T.E but was told by the T.T.E. that it was impossible for him to do anything in those circumstances. The evidence and statements of other passengers who had travelled in that coach disclose almost the same thing about over crowding in that coach. 25. The train was heavily over crowded. Apart from other passengers, there were about 2200 Ramsevaks travelling therein. Most of them had no reserved accommodation. There is no evidence of Narindra Modi sponsored Yatris have reserved even one seat. Number of free traveling Yatris could be even 3000. For 35 hours in each directions 1200 legal passengers, majority of them women or children were forced to take one sleeper for entire family. Men, women and children were held hostage for 35 hours, humiliated, molested forced entire family them to sleep on one berth. It started on 22nd evening and ended on 27th morning. Break up of casualty figure is 22 men, 27 women and 10 children. DNA tests could have proved almost all were relatives and surely none was Yatris. Most strangely Godhra Report didn’t list the 48 injured who could have provided vital clues. 1. A ghastly incident of fire in coach S/6 of Sabarmati Express train happened in the morning of 27-2-2002, near Godhra railway station, in which 59 passengers travelling in that coach were burnt alive. Amongst the victims 27 were women and 10 were children. Other 48 passengers had also received injuries. Most of the victims were Ramsevaks (also referred to as Karsevaks). This incident (hereinafter referred to as ‘Godhra incident’) had happened sometime between 8.00 a.m. and 8.20 a.m. near ‘A’ cabin within the Godhra railway yard. Sabarmati Express train had started from Muzaffarpur on 25-2-2002 and on its way to Ahmedabad about 2000 to 2200 Ramsevaks had boarded the train from Ayodhya. They had earlier gone from Gujarat to Ayodhya at the instance of Vishva Hindu Parishad to take part in ‘Purnahuti Maha Yagna’, which was a part of ‘Ram Temple Nirman’ programme organized by some Hindu religious organizations. Train started on 22nd evening and arrived at Godhra on 27th 7:45 AM no arrangement was made for Yatris security, and food all along the route when journey time was 2X35 hours. Godhra Commission didn’t try to ascertain who cooked food for them and where. 23. Movement for renovation of the Ram temple at Ayodhya was started in 1993. A ‘Sansad’ of Hindu religious organizations had met at Prayag in January, 2001 to fix a programme for ‘Ram Temple Nirman’ i.e. construction of Ram temple at Ayodhya. The programme had started with ‘Jalabhishek’ and was followed by ‘Jap Yagna’. As disclosed by the statement of Vishva Hindu Parishad, lacs of persons through-out the country had participated in the ‘Jap Yagna’. On completion thereof ‘Purnahuti Maha Yagna’ was arranged at Ayodhya. It was to start on 24.2.2002. Vishva Hindu Parishad is a leading Hindu religious organization and had played a prominent role in this programme. It had decided that its members who had taken part in the ‘Jap Yagna’ would go to Ayodhya for the ‘Purnahuti Maha Yagna’. It had also decided that from Gujarat initially three batches of Ramsevaks, each consisting of about 2000 persons, would go to Ayodhya for taking part in that Yagna which was to go on for 100 days. The first batch of Ramsevaks was to consist of 2000 persons from the central and north Gujarat area. It was to leave Ahmedabad by Sabarmati Express train on 22.2.2002 and return to Gujarat again by the same train leaving Ayodhya on 25.2.2002. The second batch was to consist of Ramsevaks of south Gujarat and it was to leave on 24.2.2002 and return on 27.2.2002.The third batch of Ramsevaks of Saurashtra area was to leave on 26.2.2002 and return on 3.3.2002. Accordingly the first batch of 2200 Ramsevaks, led by its General Secretary, had left Gujarat on 23.2.2002.They had started their return journey on 25.2.2002. DSP Raju Bhargav was first officer to reach the burning coach at 8:15 AM he didn’t see any hostile mob pelting stones or even carrying inflammable materials, he didn’t smell anything foul. He met only 4-5 RPF men that also don’t indicate big crowd would have attacked the train. “He has stated that he had seen Mohmmad Hussain Kalota, President of the Godhra Municipality and Haji Bilal, a Municipal Councilor standing near the fire fighter but he had not seen any crowd near them. He had not met any PSI in charge of a mobile van.” But most important disclosure was fire started from under the berths is indicated by the large bluish material that leaked from the burning coach in the middle of the coach on P-139 that confirms his observation and supports Justice Bannerjee findings. 130. Babubhai who was in charge of Alpha mobile and had rushed to the station, in his police statement dated 8-3-2002, had stated that he had seen a mob near Signal Falia throwing stones on the train. One coach of the train was already set on fire. He had, therefore, sent a message to send Fire Brigade immediately. He had ordered firing of tear gas shells for dispersing the mob. He had seen Godhra Municipal Presient Shri Kalota and municipal councilor Haji Bilal in that mob.. They were inciting the Muslims. He had then gone near the train and rendered help to the passengers.. His wireless operator Jashwantsinh in his statement dated 8-3-2002 and Armed police constables Vinubhai and Dalpatsinh in their statements to the police made on 9-3-2002, have stated the same thing. 131. Sureshgiri Mohangiri Gosai ( W-30 ) was working as a fireman in the Fire Brigade maintained by the Godhra municipality. He has stated that they had received a vardhy at 8-20 a.m. that there was fire in Sabarmati Express train near Signal Falia and, therefore, a fire fighter be sent there immediately. So he had gone there with a fire fighter, It was obstructed by a mob of about 1500 to 2000 persons near old Octroi naka near Signal Falia. It was a mob of Muslims. At that time Bilal Haji had come there on a motor cycle and had by gestures of his hand incited the mob to stop the fire fighter there. Thereupon some persons in the mob had thrown stones on the fire fighter. The driver of the fire fighter had then driven the vehicle in such a way that the mob had to move away. They had then taken their vehicle below the culvert and then near the train. He has further stated that while they were trying to extinguish the fire, stones were pelted on the train. The fire was extinguished by about 11-00 a.m. In reply to a question put to him by one of the parties, he has stated that 1500 to 2000 persons whom he had seen were in small mobs. He had reached near the train at about 8-30 a.m. As a result of stones thrown by the mob one or two persons on the fire fighter had received injuries. Some persons in the mob had sticks, pipes etc. with them. An attempt was made to show that since he was on the back side of the fire fighter, he could not have seen what was in front of the fire fighter. However, the witness has in terms stated that he had himself seen the mob which was near Signal Falia. He himself had seen stones falling on the train and it was for that reason the he had stated that there was pelting of stones on the train. This witness is also an independent witness who had nothing to do with the Ramsevaks or the railway staff or even the police. His evidence thus establishes that there was a mob near Signal Falia and that mob had tried to prevent the fire fighter from proceeding further towards the train by obstructing it. His evidence also established that the said mob was instigated by leaders like Haji Bilal, Abdul Rehman and others. 132 DSP Raju Bhargav, ( W-31 ) has stated that on 27-2-2002 he and his staff were making preparations for annual inspection by Spl. I.G.P. Vadodara Range, at their police headquarter. At about 08.05 hrs. he was informed by the Control Room that Sabarmati Express train carrying Karsevaks was stopped at Godhra station and it was not being allowed to start. He had, therefore, rushed to the railway station after directing his RSI to come to the place of the incident with all policemen present at the parade ground. While he was proceeding to the railway station, he had heard on wireless that a coach of the train was set on fire. He had reached the railway station at about 08.15 hrs. On inquiring about the incident, he was informed that “a train coach had been set on fire near cabin ‘A’. He had then proceeded towards ‘A’ cabin via Signal Falia. He had inquired from one of the four police guards of GRP as to what had happened and he was informed that “the train was stopped and there was heavy stone pelting on the train and then they had fired some rounds.” He had found that the passengers were in an agitated mood because the train was attacked. While he was trying to pacify them some policemen had come there from the headquarter. He had placed them all along the track for protecting the passengers from any further attack. He had then informed Spl. I.G.P. Vadodara Range , Vadodara at 08.26 Hrs. about the situation. He had also informed the District Collector about it and requested her to make arrangement for S.T.Buses and vehicles for shifting the passengers. 133 Replying to the questions put to him by the parties, he has stated that when he had gone near the passengers and asked four GRP guards and some RPF men who were standing there as to what had happened, he was told by one of them that the train was stopped and there was heavy stone pelting on the train and that they had fired some rounds to disperse those mobs. He was also told that stones were pelted from the side of Signal Falia. By the time he had reached near the burning coach (S/6), it was about 8-25 a.m. He had immediately thereafter informed the Collector for making necessary arrangements for safety of the passengers. The passengers were in an agitated mood because the train was attacked and many men were injured and killed by the mob which had come there. While he was there he had not seen any mob throwing stones on the train but had seen some onlookers. In reply to a question put by Jan Sangharsh Manch, he has stated that injuries which he had noticed on the passengers were on the upper part of their bodies and that he had not noticed any injury below their waist. He was also asked questions about the parts of the coach where he had seen flames. He has further stated that he had come to know that the fire had started from below a berth of that coach, but the passengers had not made it clear which berth it was. He has also stated that he had come to know that the passengers inside the coach ( S/6 ) had moved from Godhra side to Vadodara side to escape the fire. On being questioned as to whether he could smell any inflammable fuel, he has stated that he had no time or opportunity to form any opinion as to how the coach had caught fire. The persons whom he had seen standing little away from the railway track were onlookers and they were not aggressive. Replying to the suggestions, he has stated that from the information that he had gathered from the passengers, he had come to know that there was some scuffle when the train was at the station. Then there was chain pulling immediately after the train had started. Again there was chain pulling when the train had moved away from the platform and thereafter there was heavy pelting of stones on the train. As regards the cause for the scuffle on the platform, he was given two versions. One version was that there was a dispute regarding payment to one tea vendor and the other version was that an attempt was made by one karsevak to pull a Muslim girl and take her inside the train. He has stated that he had seen Mohmmad Hussain Kalota, President of the Godhra Municipality and Haji Bilal, a Municipal Councilor standing near the fire fighter but he had not seen any crowd near them. He had not met any PSI in charge of a mobile van. In view of the situation which had developed there, each officer was performing his duty according to what he had thought fit. In the Signal Falia it is not unusual for 400 to 500 persons to collect at any time and at the time of namaz even more persons usually collect in that area. The Police Parade Ground is about 2 Kms. away from Godhra railway station and in a small vehicle it would take 7 to 8 minutes to reach the station from the Parade ground. It was suggested that he had not reached the Station before 8.30 a.m. The witness has denied that suggestion and he appears to be right as he had already informed the Collector from the Station at about 8.26 a.m. that there was fire in the train and considering the then prevailing situation immediate arrangements were required to be made to shift the passengers. On consideration of the evidence, it appears that he had reached the station at about 8.20 a.m. and near the train at about 8.25 a.m. Obviously, after reaching there he must have made an inquiry as to what had happened. Therefore, his version that he had inquired from police guards and the passengers what had happened and that he was informed by them that there was chain pulling and after the train had stopped there was heavy pelting of stones and the police was required to resort to firing to disperse the attacking mob. He was an officer of a high rank and from the evidence that he has given, it clearly appears that he has given a truthful version of what he had come to know and what he had seen. By the time he had reached near the train firing had already taken place and therefore, most of the persons in the mob were likely to have gone away from that place. He therefore, appears to be right when he states that he had not noticed a hostile mob near the train and the persons who were seen there were merely onlookers. Most importantly the train was five hours late and was scheduled to reach Godhra 2.55 AM, though we know information of late running of trains is easily available but no criminal will execute such act of arson in day time- 8 AM when 5-6 trains arrive and depart Godhra at peak time. Role of 2200 Yatris who illegally occupied Sabarmati Coaches was not explained who were all supposed to be armed with Trishuls. Similarly organizers role who ought to have arranged for safe travel of their members and their names too were not disclosed.. Ravinder Singh April20, 2009 Ravinder Singh hi there i have been a subscriber of the list for a few years now. of late, i have noticed that i am not getting any mails from your server. i am not mistaken in presuming that the online discussions and notifications of various kinds have not stopped, then it can only mean technical problem that is preventing me from receiving mails. i have already checked the blocked addresses list in my Spam filer and needless to say you are not on the list . please be kind enough to look into the matter ! thanks aiman mustafa From kshmendra2005 at yahoo.com Mon Apr 20 17:05:45 2009 From: kshmendra2005 at yahoo.com (Kshmendra Kaul) Date: Mon, 20 Apr 2009 04:35:45 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Reader-list] "The Taliban are here" - Samad Khurram Message-ID: <645484.16327.qm@web57203.mail.re3.yahoo.com> Samad Khurram, the writer of the piece "The Taliban are here" is a celebrity in Pakistan. He is a poster boy for the widespread Anti-USA feelings in Pakistan. Pakistanis who are fed up with being toyed with by the USA would want their government to stand-up to the Americans in a manner similar to Samad Khurram's.   In a widely televised function, Samad Khurram " ... Pakistani student ....at Harvard University ...snubbed the U.S. Ambassador to Pakistan, Anne W. Patterson, by refusing to shake her hand or accept an award for Pakistani students from the Roots Academy - a top-notch private school - who are studying in leading U.S. universities."   That was in July 2008   Kshmendra     "The Taliban are here"     Monday, April 20, 2009 By Samad Khurram Back in 2002, I was returning from Friday prayers when I saw an unusual gathering of singing and quasi-dancing mullahs. Unusual because I had always assumed mullahs to be against all types of kufr (art). The amused crowd were listening to chants of “Taliban aa-gae! Taliban aa-gae!” I smirked: As if! Pakistan is a nuclear country with the seventh-largest army. We’re safe. The mullahs’ songs have been answered – the Taliban indeed are coming. And with them the cowards are bringing a lifestyle that destroys everything Pakistan. Oh, no! Wait! This guy is on the paycheque of those who are trying to break Pakistan. The Taliban are our heroes, it is America which is in the wrong. Yes, this is the typical self-defence mechanism coming to full force. Having nothing to lose, and having been already declared a CIA agent earlier in life, I suppose I’ll continue. Continuing with a genuine fear that these words are falling on either deaf or hostile ears, it may well be that Mohammad Ali Jinnah’s Pakistan is over in a year if all this chaos continues. Perhaps, if Jinnah knew that the country he founded was going to become an arena for public flogging, where the laughs of sadist barbarians will mingle with the screams of women and children, he would not have decided on creating it. Had he known that there would be more suicide bombs in his country than any other place in the world, where militants and bigots would go around threatening women to “dress properly,” where schoolchildren would have to undergo security checks as if they were in a war zone, he would be extremely upset. All our talk shows discuss the merits and demerits of the 17th Amendment, or bash America and India. Yes, American drones and Indian statements are a threat to our sovereignty. Yes, the balance of power is important, but it is the Taliban who have killed more people than India or the US drones combined, and have made us feel more unsafe than anyone else in the past thirty years. What other definition of sovereignty is there than provision of protection to people and maintenance of the writ of the state? Why can’t we have some programmes that discuss the atrocities of the Taliban, acts of terror that they do and how they have destroyed Pakistan? No, it’s not the “Hindu Zionists” working on a CIA/Mossad-sponsored conspiracy to break Pakistan. And for the sake of argument, even if they are foreign-funded, does that not mean we should double our efforts to counter them? Remember when India briefly occupied some land in 1965 and how the whole country rallied to defend this invasion? My grandfather had stories of people going with sticks to support the army. I am afraid I will not have any such stories of patriotic resistance to tell anyone when another enemy has taken control of, say, a fourth of the NWFP and roughly one-twentieth of Pakistan. But remember the great Pakistani Fauj which, under the Ameer-ul-Momineen, Zia-ul-Haq, crushed the Russians? This is only a plan to make America taste the same fate! Yes, thank you Zaid Hamid. For a nation which already lives in denial, your conspiracy theories are all we need to turn us completely schizophrenic. For the love of God, can anyone explain to me why the great army whose laurels we sing from the day we are born has still not been able to jam radio stations pouring terror in Swat? How is it that these Taliban leaders can appear before journalists in broad daylight and roam freely without any trouble even when they claim responsibility for a suicide bombing? Perhaps the real question I should ask is, why do I even care? When I took time off from Harvard to be part of the lawyers’ movement I had seen a ray of hope. There were concerned citizens and lawyers who stood for what was right, no matter what the consequences. We fought for a principle and won, with the hope that things will slowly improve. Today the very judges we had faith in released the Lal Masjid cleric whose crimes everyone knows about. If the judiciary was going to release people whose crimes were recorded on TV, perhaps it does explain why the Taliban are growing popular. Having said that, rays of hope like Afzal Khan Lala, who has refused to move from Swat while he is alive, appear every now and then. However, he stands alone in facing the storm. Other than Ayaz Amir, not a single Pakistani leader has spoken out against the Taliban. Will the real leader who can get rid of these monsters stand up, please? Imran Khan? Qazi? Nawaz Sharif? This silence is criminal! What’s worse is that these leaders of ours have unanimously approved a state within a state run, which is not accountable to anyone, absolved the Taliban of all crimes and provided them a safe haven to kill more Pakistanis. The so-called Nizam-e-Adl Regulation was endorsed by the National Assembly without any proper debate. The sad story, friends, is that the Taliban are here, and unless we stand up against them in every possible way, Pakistan will be lost for good. And it will not be lost because of Zardari’s real or perceived corruption or anything else like that, but because of the silence of the lambs – we ALL will be responsible if Pakistan fails. The writer is a student at Harvard University and turned down an award from the US ambassador as a mark of protest against killings of Pakistanis by US drone attacks. Email: skhurram at fas.harvard.edu http://www.thenews.com.pk/daily_detail.asp?id=173372   From kmvenuannur at gmail.com Mon Apr 20 17:21:11 2009 From: kmvenuannur at gmail.com (Venugopalan K M) Date: Mon, 20 Apr 2009 17:21:11 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Noam Chomsky interviewed by Amy Goodman of "Democracy Now" April 14, 2009 Message-ID: <1f9180970904200451i77d3daf7l34c652464708c44c@mail.gmail.com> * Full: * * * * * * * *AMY GOODMAN: *But as you reflect, talking about these huge social movements, cataclysmic times in the world, your life experience, what gives you hope? *NOAM CHOMSKY: *Well, there's both hope and fear. I mean, I'm old enough to have grown up in the Depression. And some of my memories—I didn't understand that much at the time—childhood memories, are listening to Hitler's speeches. I didn't understand them, but I could sense the reaction of my parents, you know, and had a feeling of fear, you know, a tremendous fear. In fact, the first article I wrote was in 1939, when I was in fourth grade, and it was about the expansion of fascism over Europe, a kind of a dark cloud that may envelop everything. And as I mentioned before, I have some of those same concerns now. On the other hand, there's been tremendous progress. The country is far more civilized than it was, say, forty years ago, thanks to the activism of the '60s and its aftermath. And some of the most important developments were after the '60s, like, say, the feminist movement, which has probably had more of an impact on this society than any other. It's mostly post-'60s. The solidarity movements, which are unique in the history of imperialism, there's never been anything like them. That's from the '80s. The global justice movements, what's called anti-globalization—shouldn't be—that's, you know, the '90s and this century. These were all very positive developments. They haven't changed the institutions. In fact, the institutions have reacted by becoming harsher, not surprisingly. But they've changed the culture. I mean, take, say, the 2008 election. I mean, I didn't like the candidates, as I've made clear. On the other hand, forty years ago, or maybe ten years ago, you couldn't have imagined that the Democratic Party would have two candidates, an African American and a woman. OK, that's a sign of the civilizing effect of the activism of the '60s and everything that followed. Well, that can be mobilized. In fact, it's already. If you count the number of activists in the country, it's, I suspect, well beyond the '60s, except maybe for a very brief moment at the peak of the antiwar movement. OK, that can be a basis for proceeding onward. So, that's a reason for hope. -- http://venukm.blogspot.com/ From kauladityaraj at gmail.com Mon Apr 20 17:22:20 2009 From: kauladityaraj at gmail.com (Aditya Raj Kaul) Date: Mon, 20 Apr 2009 17:22:20 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] BOMBAY: "Renting while Muslim" In-Reply-To: <6ade4a8f0904200148n3139a5dfp664bdb7622f60d13@mail.gmail.com> References: <35426.20717.qm@web94715.mail.in2.yahoo.com> <6ade4a8f0904200148n3139a5dfp664bdb7622f60d13@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <6353c690904200452t117a92f4lc2c1420c27a9a187@mail.gmail.com> Is it highest in Gujarat; the Human Development Index that is? Just curious to know. or.. which state has highest? On Mon, Apr 20, 2009 at 2:18 PM, V Ramaswamy wrote: > Unfortunately the situation is the same or worse in "Leftist" Kolkata, > which > is one of the most communally divided cities in the country, where social > or > cognitive intercourse of Hindus with Muslims is minimal, and where the > human > development index of the city's Muslims (20% of the city population) is > abysmally low. > > V Ramaswamy > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > subscribe in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> -- Aditya Raj Kaul From kshmendra2005 at yahoo.com Mon Apr 20 17:29:11 2009 From: kshmendra2005 at yahoo.com (Kshmendra Kaul) Date: Mon, 20 Apr 2009 04:59:11 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Reader-list] Standing up for your country -Samad Khurram (why he refused the award) Message-ID: <643069.18790.qm@web57205.mail.re3.yahoo.com> BACKGROUND : "Pakistani student Samad Khurram refused to accept an award of academic excellence from United States Ambassador Anne Patterson on Wednesday (19/06/2008), in protest against the US bombing in Mohmand Agency last week and its support of President Pervez Musharraf, who he said was an unconstitutional president and had destroyed Pakistan's judicial institution." - DAILY TIMES   WHAT SAMAD KHURRAM HAD TO SAY ABOUT HIS ACT:   "Standing up for your country"   Friday, July 11, 2008 By Samad Khurram Continuous air strikes on Pakistani territory and repeated intrusions of Pakistani airspace by US-led coalition forces in stark violation of international norms and customs have troubled Pakistanis across the country. These are very similar to US interventions in the political sphere of our country, where elected leaders are constantly bombarded by the Negropontes and Bouchers of this world. A combination of US geopolitical interests in the region and incompetent leaders unable to say "no" to a global superpower, have seriously undermined Pakistan's physical and political sovereignty. It is disgraceful for Pakistanis to have their most important decisions being made in Washington and not Islamabad. Pakistanis, for instance, are vehemently opposed to the unconstitutional actions of Nov 3 by Pervez Musharraf and have rejected him and his King's Party in the Feb 18 election. A recent poll by the International Republican Institute suggested that 81 percent of Pakistanis want Chief Justice Iftikhar Chaudhry reinstated. Already the compromised political process is unable to function properly and the elected leaders are still unable to fulfil their pre-election promises. When the US constantly praises Musharraf, issues statements calling him a constitutional president, or when the Bouchers and Negropontes try and influence every political decision in this country, it becomes obvious to people just who is pulling the strings in their homeland. Direct US actions have led to the deaths of many innocent Pakistanis, of the country's constitution, of rule of law and of the political process in Pakistan. A few days before an academic excellence award was to be awarded to me by Roots School International, about 30 Pakistanis, including 14 soldiers, were killed by US-led coalition air strikes in Mohmand Agency. Had this "accident" been committed by Pakistani forces we would have been eternally damned. The government remained muted, hardly any appropriate level of protest was lodged. I had no objections to an award from my high school whose administration and teachers I have the utmost regard for – or at least had until the Americans' actions of June 18. However, the presence as chief guest of the American ambassador (who is basically the Bush administration's representative in Pakistan) presented a rare opportunity to me for making known my concerns as a patriotic Pakistani. It was in the US, more specifically at Harvard, where I had learned to voice my dissent peacefully and non-violently, to stand up for what I believed in and to speak for those who could not have their voices heard, and I thought of putting some of these very values to good use. After thinking of all the possibilities and consequences, I decided to attend to the ceremony and refuse the award politely in order to record my protest and make it known to the world that Pakistanis will not let their sovereignty be compromised. Osman Bhai, my ever trusted mentor and oracle, helped with his priceless advice and we worked out a 20-second speech. Any shorter might not have made an impact and a longer one may have resulted in security removing me from the hall. And so I did just that. After delivering the short speech--"I am refusing this award in protest of repeated US air strikes resulting in the deaths of many innocent Pakistanis and US tacit support for an unconstitutional president, who has destroyed Pakistan's judiciary; my conscience will not forgive me for accepting this award"--I walked back to my seat, relieved that I had used my right to dissent, as guaranteed to me under the Constitution of Pakistan. Due credit must also be given to Ms Patterson, who acknowledged my protest immediately and informed the audience how proud she was of students like myself. Her calm and political maturity at the day was admirable. The same could not be said about the school administration. Many of their actions on that day were despicable and unfitting of those who educate the future of Pakistan. The administration of Roots should be thankful to my parents who have prevented me from disclosing what my brother and I had to go through--else the many articles on this protest would have also condemned many of their actions. Instead of being proud of a patriotic student from their school who spoke for the dignity of human life, rule of law and democracy, the school administration dared me to leave Harvard if I were so anti-American. This led to many inaccurate news items claiming I had refused a Harvard scholarship. I contacted all the major newspapers to make clarifications on this misreporting but very few have made the appropriate corrections. The scholarship I am receiving at Harvard University is funded through gifts of former alums, many of them Pakistanis such as the late Benazir Bhutto, and not by the Bush administration or the US military. Harvard itself has been very proactive in advocating for the rule of law for Pakistan, and recently it awarded the prestigious "Medal of Freedom" to the Chief Justice Iftikhar Chaudhry. The administration has been supportive of my activism and even permitted me to take a semester off so that I could be part of the historic lawyers' movement. There are protests around the campus all the time: against the Iraq war, the Chinese crackdown in Tibet and for the restoration of Pakistan's judiciary, among a host of other issues. Surprisingly, my old school administration has dared me to leave a university that stands for principles and is in no way connected to the US bombings of Pakistani territory or of the American government's support for Musharraf! Very well! The day the school's students leave their institution in protest over Musharraf's actions of Nov 3, I too shall leave Harvard. The frailty and naivete of such suggestions hardly deserves a rejoinder. Clearly, some people need to be explained the difference between private and public institutions. I am really overwhelmed and thankful to the thousands of Pakistanis who have written to me and called me to show their support. The words of appreciation mean a lot to me and I am afraid I may not be able to reply to everyone. My sincerest gratitude also to all those who have offered scholarships to me in the event my scholarship is revoked. I don't see that happening since such protests are very common in the US and never get the same hype that has been given to mine in Pakistan. Furthermore, many people have asked me whether this was under the influence of any political person or party. I do not have any political affiliations and no one else influences my decisions. However, that being said, it would be wrong not to mention the commendable stance taken by Honourable Chief Justice Iftikhar Chaudhry and the 60 other judges who stood up for principles and refused to sell their souls to the president. My inspiration comes from the lawyers who have been committed for the independence of the judiciary and rule of law and have given great role models for our generation to look up to. Without their principled struggle I do not think I could have taken this stand. With this I would like to request an end to the media frenzy and not to contact me for future interviews and television appearances on this protest. I do believe I have had my voice heard adequately and more limelight on my person will overshadow other more important issues that require coverage, such as the restoration of Pakistan's judiciary. The writer is a student at Harvard University and an active member of Student Action Committees of the USA and Islamabad. Email: samadkhurram@ gmail.com http://thenews.jang.com.pk/daily_detail.asp?id=123479   From bawazainab79 at gmail.com Mon Apr 20 18:40:59 2009 From: bawazainab79 at gmail.com (Zainab Bawa) Date: Mon, 20 Apr 2009 18:40:59 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Back issues of Civil Society Magazine Message-ID: Dear all, I am carrying out research on transparency, politics and the Internet. I need four back issues of Civil Society Magazine which is published from New Delhi. Their online archive contains issues from 2007 onwards. The four issues were published in 2004. Unfortunately, I am unable to track down the volume number, but the issues have the following cover stories: 1. Taxman's burden 2. A CM's activism 3. NGOs in Politics 4. Gurgaon wants to vote Number 1, 2 and 3 are consecutive issues while number 4 is the 5th issue after number 3. If any of you have copies of any/all of these issues, kindly get in touch. Cheers, Zainab -- Zainab Bawa Ph.D. Student and Independent Researcher Between Places ... http://wbfs.wordpress.com From kshmendra2005 at yahoo.com Mon Apr 20 19:12:37 2009 From: kshmendra2005 at yahoo.com (Kshmendra Kaul) Date: Mon, 20 Apr 2009 06:42:37 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Reader-list] Shameful Torture of 23 Muslims Prisoners on March 26-27 In Sabarmati Jail, Ahamedabad: A Report by Human Rights Activists In-Reply-To: <2A6F9650-0EEA-4BB5-B6CC-8C8F1C7061D6@sarai.net> Message-ID: <919147.92003.qm@web57204.mail.re3.yahoo.com> Dear Shuddha   Varun is already a 'star' for the BJP.   Now even if does not utter even a single indiscrete comment, his very being will serve as a subliminal reminder of his utterances in Philbit.   The shocking part is that nothing can be done about it. The Philbit speech was neither all of nor the only 'hate' speech of his.   One should have been certain that if Varun wins the election, he will lose his seat under the Election Code. One isnt certain.   That he should be allowed to contest the elections after his speeches is in itself a shame for India.    Opinions have been expressed elsewhere that although the NSA should not have been used against Varun, his being locked up in jail for a few days is far more desirable than his being booked under any other provision of the Law, which would be a bailable offence and under which he would spend just a few hours in jail or at best do an overnighter. The 'lesser evil' argument for sobering him up and perhaps to serve as a cautioning example for others. (You have made known your views on NSA)   I have judged Varun. He is guilty in my eyes. He is Anti-National.     I will repeat what I wrote a month back:   "My penalty for him would be to place him for 6 months to look after the footwear of worshipers at some Mosque and devotees at some Dargah (shrine). I would put him for another 6 months at an old age home for impoverished Muslims where he is asked to look after the most basic of their (needs) including feeding them, nursing them and helping them with their toiletries."   Kshmendra   --- On Mon, 4/20/09, Shuddhabrata Sengupta wrote: From: Shuddhabrata Sengupta Subject: Re: [Reader-list] Shameful Torture of 23 Muslims Prisoners on March 26-27 In Sabarmati Jail, Ahamedabad: A Report by Human Rights Activists To: kshmendra2005 at yahoo.com Cc: "sarai-list" , "Venugopalan K M" Date: Monday, April 20, 2009, 3:55 AM Dear All,  The allegations of torture on the detenues in Sabarmati Jail are a serious matter, and I personally feel that they need investigation. I would also like to state here, that I am totally against the detention of Varun Gandhi, which was done under the National Security Act. I find Varun Gandhi's statements reprehensible, they just show the disgusting level of pettiness and prejudice to which he and his party are prepared to stoop in order to score points in an election campaign and I think they should be combatted politically. If at all necessary charges could have been brought against him, since he is seeking election, through the relevant sections of the Representation of the People Act and some parts of the Indian Penal Code.  But the National Security Act is a preventive detention law, and I think in principle, all instances of preventive detention should be opposed as they are against democratic norms, This only ends up gifting Varun Gandhi with a halo we don;t need to see him with.  regards Shuddha On 18-Apr-09, at 3:43 PM, Kshmendra Kaul wrote: Dear Venugopalan   Any mistreatment of prisoners in a jail is reprehensible.    However, do you think it was proper of you to give the Subject Line that you have given for this report?   The report expresses concern at the government (mis)handling of the beating up of 22 (not 23) jail inmates. It describes them as "most of them Muslim"    "Most of them Muslim" and not "All of them Muslim" as is rather unfortunately suggested by your Subject Line which gives quite a different sense.     Kshmendra   --- On Fri, 4/17/09, Venugopalan K M wrote: From: Venugopalan K M Subject: [Reader-list] Shameful Torture of 23 Muslims Prisoners on March 26-27 In Sabarmati Jail, Ahamedabad: A Report by Human Rights Activists To: "sarai-list" Date: Friday, April 17, 2009, 3:17 PM Dear Sir/Madam, Prelimanary Report of INDEPENDENT COMMITTEE ON INCIDENTS OF 26-27th MARCH 2009 IN SABARMATI JAIL,  AHMEDABAD. *INDEPENDENT COMMITTEE ON INCIDENTS OF 26-27th MARCH 2009 IN SABARMATI JAIL, AHMEDABAD, GUJARAT* CAMP: People’s Union for Civil Liberties c/o Gandhi peace Foundation, Himavan, Paldi Char Rasta, Ahmadabad 380006 *PRESS NOTE* *AHMEDABAD, April 16, 2009* * * * * An Independent committee of senior national human rights activists has expressed its deep concern at the government handling of the beating up of 22 inmates of the Sabarmati Jail on 25 March 2009, and has called for a full enquiry, preferably a judicial one by a judge of the High Court, into gross violations of the Jail manual and human rights norms established by the Courts and the NHRC. Regrettably, the incident reinforces the image of Gujarat as a state where the human rights of religious minorities and weaker sections are not honoured. Inmates, most of them Muslim, who were on a  hunger strike, were denied medical attention after a brutal attack on them by jail staff, which left at least three of them unconscious for so long as to start rumours in the city that they had died. They were subsequently denied access to counsel, their relatives were refused permission to meet them for three days, and then the Sabarmati Police station failed to register an FIR as sought by relatives and counsel of the victims. The independent committee consisted of Dr. John Dayal, Member, National Integration Council, Govt. of India, Adv. K. Kesavan, Joint Secretary, CPCL, Tamil Nadu, Dr. J. S. Bandukwala, President, PUCL, Gujarat, Dr. S. Q. R. Ilyas, Editor, Afkar-e-Milli, New Delhi, Mr. Gopal Menon, Film Maker, Bangalore, Mr. Mahtab Alam,Coordinator, Association for the Protection of Civil Rights (APCR), New Delhi, Ms. Harini Krishna, Film Maker, Mumbai, and Ms. Ruchi Shroff, Civil Rights Activist, Mumbai, Mr. Gautam Thakar, Secretary, Secretary, PUCL, Gujarat was in  Ahmadabad from 15th to 16thApril 09. At a public hearing, the Committee heard statements from mothers, wives and sisters of the jail inmates who gave detailed narrative of the events in the jail as they had heard from the inmates when they were finally allowed to meet them. The women presented blood stained clothes of the inmates. Counsel gave the committee copies of the PIL filed in the Gujarat High Court, the medical report filed by two lawyers who had met the inmates in jail, as also correspondence with the jail and police authorities seeking justice and medical care for the injured. The committee made several efforts to approach the authorities. The committee in fact went to the Sabarmati jail and met Superintendent Chandrashekhar who refused permission to visit the concerned ward and meet the inmates. Inspector general of police Mr. Keshav Kumar, despite a written request followed up by repeated visits to his office and a telephone conversation with him would not find time for the committee. The visit to the Sabarmati Police station was an eye-opener where ACP Vaghela, SHO Joshi and Inspector Parmar all but justified the violence against the  inmates saying they were criminals accused in Bomb blasts, and had indulged in violence in the Jail. The three officers admitted an FIR had been registered at the behest of the Jail authorities. They denied they had even received complaints from the families of the victims in this case. The investigating committee does not comment on the cases in which these 22 persons are in jail, or even on several other events that have taken place in the Sabarmati jail in recent weeks which go to show that all is not right with its administration. But it is clear from the testimony of the relatives of the victims and the admission of the police officers that the chain of events has been triggered off with the coming of the new Jail Superintendent who stopped long standing practices of taking ill and injured inmates to the civil hospital, provision of highly specialized medicine and curtailed other rights. It was in response to this that the prisoners went on a highly publicized hunger strike. The committee will submit a detailed report in a couple of weeks. But it is important to record its preliminary findings and recommendations. *Initial observation of the team * * *    1. *Beating of the Jail inmates are admitted in an affidavit filed by    Jail authority.*    2. *Draconian jail manual laid down by the British is followed till date,    even though parts of it are contradictory to our Constitution.*    3. *Advocates and relatives of the inmates were not allowed to meet for a    long time, which is a serious violation of Prisoners’ Rights.*    4. *No FIR of the relatives has been registered till date.*    5. *Inspire of 22 prisoners suffering injuries, some of them being    fractures, they were treated within the jail as our patients correctly, they    should have been admitted to civil hospital. * * * *We demand that-* * *    1. *National Human Rights Commission should intervene on the issue and    report to the Supreme Court.*    2. *Proper medical help should be given by the civil hospital. *    3. *PUCL Gujarat and Human Rights groups should be allowed to meet and    gather first hand information.  * * * * * Sd/- Dr John Dayal- 09811021072 Prof J S Badukwala Dr SQR Ilyas Mr. Gautam Thakar, Secretary, PUCL, Gujarat-09825382556 Released to the media for publication. regards, Mahtab MD. MAHTAB ALAM mdmahtaba... at gmail.com Phone:+ 91-9811209345 --  MD. MAHTAB ALAM mdmahtaba... at gmail.com Phone:+ 91-9811209345     Press Note ahmedabad 16 april 09.doc 41K View Download --  http://venukm.blogspot.com/ _________________________________________ reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. Critiques & Collaborations To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with subscribe in the subject header. To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list  List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> _________________________________________ reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. Critiques & Collaborations To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with subscribe in the subject header. To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list  List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> Shuddhabrata Sengupta The Sarai Programme at CSDS Raqs Media Collective shuddha at sarai.net www.sarai.net www.raqsmediacollective.net From rahul_capri at yahoo.com Mon Apr 20 19:20:34 2009 From: rahul_capri at yahoo.com (Rahul Asthana) Date: Mon, 20 Apr 2009 06:50:34 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Reader-list] "The Taliban are here" - Samad Khurram In-Reply-To: <645484.16327.qm@web57203.mail.re3.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <895306.11306.qm@web53605.mail.re2.yahoo.com> "Other than Ayaz Amir, not a single Pakistani leader > has spoken out against the Taliban." It would have been funny if it was not so pathetic.This is Ayaz Amir writing in support of the Swat deal http://www.thenews.com.pk/editorial_detail.asp?id=163592 And here he changes his tune 180 degrees. http://www.thenews.com.pk/top_story_detail.asp?Id=21505 This is a Pakistani liberal journalist.I know many list members cringe when someone suggests that India and Pakistan have gone the opposite way,but anyway,here is some more interesting news. http://thenews.com.pk/daily_detail.asp?id=172210 India should prepare itself for a Talibanized Pakistan.It could,in some ways, be better than dealing with Pakistani liberals who speak from both sides of their mouths. --- On Mon, 4/20/09, Kshmendra Kaul wrote: > From: Kshmendra Kaul > Subject: [Reader-list] "The Taliban are here" - Samad Khurram > To: "Sarai" > Date: Monday, April 20, 2009, 5:05 PM > Samad Khurram, the writer of the piece "The Taliban are > here" is a celebrity in Pakistan. He is a poster boy > for the widespread Anti-USA feelings in Pakistan. Pakistanis > who are fed up with being toyed with by the USA would want > their government to stand-up to the Americans in a manner > similar to Samad Khurram's. >   > In a widely televised function, Samad Khurram " ... > Pakistani student ....at Harvard University ...snubbed the > U.S. Ambassador to Pakistan, Anne W. Patterson, by refusing > to shake her hand or accept an award for Pakistani students > from the Roots Academy - a top-notch private school - who > are studying in leading U.S. universities." >   > That was in July 2008 >   > Kshmendra >   >   > "The Taliban are here" >   >   > > > > > Monday, April 20, 2009 > By Samad Khurram > > > > Back in 2002, I was returning from Friday prayers when I > saw an unusual gathering of singing and quasi-dancing > mullahs. Unusual because I had always assumed mullahs to be > against all types of kufr (art). The amused crowd were > listening to chants of “Taliban aa-gae! Taliban aa-gae!” > I smirked: As if! Pakistan is a nuclear country with the > seventh-largest army. We’re safe. > > The mullahs’ songs have been answered – the Taliban > indeed are coming. And with them the cowards are bringing a > lifestyle that destroys everything Pakistan. > > Oh, no! Wait! This guy is on the paycheque of those who are > trying to break Pakistan. The Taliban are our heroes, it is > America which is in the wrong. Yes, this is the typical > self-defence mechanism coming to full force. Having nothing > to lose, and having been already declared a CIA agent > earlier in life, I suppose I’ll continue. Continuing with > a genuine fear that these words are falling on either deaf > or hostile ears, it may well be that Mohammad Ali Jinnah’s > Pakistan is over in a year if all this chaos continues. > > Perhaps, if Jinnah knew that the country he founded was > going to become an arena for public flogging, where the > laughs of sadist barbarians will mingle with the screams of > women and children, he would not have decided on creating > it. Had he known that there would be more suicide bombs in > his country than any other place in the world, where > militants and bigots would go around threatening women to > “dress properly,” where schoolchildren would have to > undergo security checks as if they were in a war zone, he > would be extremely upset. > > All our talk shows discuss the merits and demerits of the > 17th Amendment, or bash America and India. Yes, American > drones and Indian statements are a threat to our > sovereignty. Yes, the balance of power is important, but it > is the Taliban who have killed more people than India or the > US drones combined, and have made us feel more unsafe than > anyone else in the past thirty years. What other definition > of sovereignty is there than provision of protection to > people and maintenance of the writ of the state? Why can’t > we have some programmes that discuss the atrocities of the > Taliban, acts of terror that they do and how they have > destroyed Pakistan? > > No, it’s not the “Hindu Zionists” working on a > CIA/Mossad-sponsored conspiracy to break Pakistan. And for > the sake of argument, even if they are foreign-funded, does > that not mean we should double our efforts to counter them? > Remember when India briefly occupied some land in 1965 and > how the whole country rallied to defend this invasion? My > grandfather had stories of people going with sticks to > support the army. I am afraid I will not have any such > stories of patriotic resistance to tell anyone when another > enemy has taken control of, say, a fourth of the NWFP and > roughly one-twentieth of Pakistan. > > But remember the great Pakistani Fauj which, under the > Ameer-ul-Momineen, Zia-ul-Haq, crushed the Russians? This is > only a plan to make America taste the same fate! Yes, thank > you Zaid Hamid. For a nation which already lives in denial, > your conspiracy theories are all we need to turn us > completely schizophrenic. > > For the love of God, can anyone explain to me why the great > army whose laurels we sing from the day we are born has > still not been able to jam radio stations pouring terror in > Swat? How is it that these Taliban leaders can appear before > journalists in broad daylight and roam freely without any > trouble even when they claim responsibility for a suicide > bombing? > > Perhaps the real question I should ask is, why do I even > care? When I took time off from Harvard to be part of the > lawyers’ movement I had seen a ray of hope. There were > concerned citizens and lawyers who stood for what was right, > no matter what the consequences. We fought for a principle > and won, with the hope that things will slowly improve. > Today the very judges we had faith in released the Lal > Masjid cleric whose crimes everyone knows about. If the > judiciary was going to release people whose crimes were > recorded on TV, perhaps it does explain why the Taliban are > growing popular. > > Having said that, rays of hope like Afzal Khan Lala, who > has refused to move from Swat while he is alive, appear > every now and then. However, he stands alone in facing the > storm. Other than Ayaz Amir, not a single Pakistani leader > has spoken out against the Taliban. Will the real leader who > can get rid of these monsters stand up, please? Imran Khan? > Qazi? Nawaz Sharif? This silence is criminal! > > What’s worse is that these leaders of ours have > unanimously approved a state within a state run, which is > not accountable to anyone, absolved the Taliban of all > crimes and provided them a safe haven to kill more > Pakistanis. The so-called Nizam-e-Adl Regulation was > endorsed by the National Assembly without any proper debate. > > The sad story, friends, is that the Taliban are here, and > unless we stand up against them in every possible way, > Pakistan will be lost for good. And it will not be lost > because of Zardari’s real or perceived corruption or > anything else like that, but because of the silence of the > lambs – we ALL will be responsible if Pakistan fails. > > The writer is a student at Harvard University and turned > down an award from the US ambassador as a mark of protest > against killings of Pakistanis by US drone attacks. Email: > skhurram at fas.harvard.edu > > http://www.thenews.com.pk/daily_detail.asp?id=173372 >   > > > > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to > reader-list-request at sarai.net with subscribe in the subject > header. > To unsubscribe: > https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: > <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> From kshmendra2005 at yahoo.com Mon Apr 20 19:42:59 2009 From: kshmendra2005 at yahoo.com (Kshmendra Kaul) Date: Mon, 20 Apr 2009 07:12:59 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Reader-list] "The Taliban are here" - Samad Khurram In-Reply-To: <895306.11306.qm@web53605.mail.re2.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <168323.86672.qm@web57208.mail.re3.yahoo.com> Dear Rahul   Actually MQM has been the only political party that has consistently spoken against the NAR-2009 (Nizam e Adl Regulation) Swat deal.   Apparently there was mayhem in the Pakistan Senate (Upper House) today with the MQM asking for notice to be taken of TNSM's  Maulana Sufi Mohammad having declared that Pakistan's Parliament was unlawful because it was not Shariah compliant.   Kshmendra   --- On Mon, 4/20/09, Rahul Asthana wrote: From: Rahul Asthana Subject: Re: [Reader-list] "The Taliban are here" - Samad Khurram To: "Sarai" , "Kshmendra Kaul" Date: Monday, April 20, 2009, 7:20 PM "Other than Ayaz Amir, not a single Pakistani leader > has spoken out against the Taliban." It would have been funny if it was not so pathetic.This is Ayaz Amir writing in support of the Swat deal http://www.thenews.com.pk/editorial_detail.asp?id=163592 And here he changes his tune 180 degrees. http://www.thenews.com.pk/top_story_detail.asp?Id=21505 This is a Pakistani liberal journalist.I know many list members cringe when someone suggests that India and Pakistan have gone the opposite way,but anyway,here is some more interesting news. http://thenews.com.pk/daily_detail.asp?id=172210 India should prepare itself for a Talibanized Pakistan.It could,in some ways, be better than dealing with Pakistani liberals who speak from both sides of their mouths. --- On Mon, 4/20/09, Kshmendra Kaul wrote: > From: Kshmendra Kaul > Subject: [Reader-list] "The Taliban are here" - Samad Khurram > To: "Sarai" > Date: Monday, April 20, 2009, 5:05 PM > Samad Khurram, the writer of the piece "The Taliban are > here" is a celebrity in Pakistan. He is a poster boy > for the widespread Anti-USA feelings in Pakistan. Pakistanis > who are fed up with being toyed with by the USA would want > their government to stand-up to the Americans in a manner > similar to Samad Khurram's. >   > In a widely televised function, Samad Khurram " ... > Pakistani student ....at Harvard University ...snubbed the > U.S. Ambassador to Pakistan, Anne W. Patterson, by refusing > to shake her hand or accept an award for Pakistani students > from the Roots Academy - a top-notch private school - who > are studying in leading U.S. universities." >   > That was in July 2008 >   > Kshmendra >   >   > "The Taliban are here" >   >   > > > > > Monday, April 20, 2009 > By Samad Khurram > > > > Back in 2002, I was returning from Friday prayers when I > saw an unusual gathering of singing and quasi-dancing > mullahs. Unusual because I had always assumed mullahs to be > against all types of kufr (art). The amused crowd were > listening to chants of “Taliban aa-gae! Taliban aa-gae!” > I smirked: As if! Pakistan is a nuclear country with the > seventh-largest army. We’re safe. > > The mullahs’ songs have been answered – the Taliban > indeed are coming. And with them the cowards are bringing a > lifestyle that destroys everything Pakistan. > > Oh, no! Wait! This guy is on the paycheque of those who are > trying to break Pakistan. The Taliban are our heroes, it is > America which is in the wrong. Yes, this is the typical > self-defence mechanism coming to full force. Having nothing > to lose, and having been already declared a CIA agent > earlier in life, I suppose I’ll continue. Continuing with > a genuine fear that these words are falling on either deaf > or hostile ears, it may well be that Mohammad Ali Jinnah’s > Pakistan is over in a year if all this chaos continues. > > Perhaps, if Jinnah knew that the country he founded was > going to become an arena for public flogging, where the > laughs of sadist barbarians will mingle with the screams of > women and children, he would not have decided on creating > it. Had he known that there would be more suicide bombs in > his country than any other place in the world, where > militants and bigots would go around threatening women to > “dress properly,” where schoolchildren would have to > undergo security checks as if they were in a war zone, he > would be extremely upset. > > All our talk shows discuss the merits and demerits of the > 17th Amendment, or bash America and India. Yes, American > drones and Indian statements are a threat to our > sovereignty. Yes, the balance of power is important, but it > is the Taliban who have killed more people than India or the > US drones combined, and have made us feel more unsafe than > anyone else in the past thirty years. What other definition > of sovereignty is there than provision of protection to > people and maintenance of the writ of the state? Why can’t > we have some programmes that discuss the atrocities of the > Taliban, acts of terror that they do and how they have > destroyed Pakistan? > > No, it’s not the “Hindu Zionists” working on a > CIA/Mossad-sponsored conspiracy to break Pakistan. And for > the sake of argument, even if they are foreign-funded, does > that not mean we should double our efforts to counter them? > Remember when India briefly occupied some land in 1965 and > how the whole country rallied to defend this invasion? My > grandfather had stories of people going with sticks to > support the army. I am afraid I will not have any such > stories of patriotic resistance to tell anyone when another > enemy has taken control of, say, a fourth of the NWFP and > roughly one-twentieth of Pakistan. > > But remember the great Pakistani Fauj which, under the > Ameer-ul-Momineen, Zia-ul-Haq, crushed the Russians? This is > only a plan to make America taste the same fate! Yes, thank > you Zaid Hamid. For a nation which already lives in denial, > your conspiracy theories are all we need to turn us > completely schizophrenic. > > For the love of God, can anyone explain to me why the great > army whose laurels we sing from the day we are born has > still not been able to jam radio stations pouring terror in > Swat? How is it that these Taliban leaders can appear before > journalists in broad daylight and roam freely without any > trouble even when they claim responsibility for a suicide > bombing? > > Perhaps the real question I should ask is, why do I even > care? When I took time off from Harvard to be part of the > lawyers’ movement I had seen a ray of hope. There were > concerned citizens and lawyers who stood for what was right, > no matter what the consequences. We fought for a principle > and won, with the hope that things will slowly improve. > Today the very judges we had faith in released the Lal > Masjid cleric whose crimes everyone knows about. If the > judiciary was going to release people whose crimes were > recorded on TV, perhaps it does explain why the Taliban are > growing popular. > > Having said that, rays of hope like Afzal Khan Lala, who > has refused to move from Swat while he is alive, appear > every now and then. However, he stands alone in facing the > storm. Other than Ayaz Amir, not a single Pakistani leader > has spoken out against the Taliban. Will the real leader who > can get rid of these monsters stand up, please? Imran Khan? > Qazi? Nawaz Sharif? This silence is criminal! > > What’s worse is that these leaders of ours have > unanimously approved a state within a state run, which is > not accountable to anyone, absolved the Taliban of all > crimes and provided them a safe haven to kill more > Pakistanis. The so-called Nizam-e-Adl Regulation was > endorsed by the National Assembly without any proper debate. > > The sad story, friends, is that the Taliban are here, and > unless we stand up against them in every possible way, > Pakistan will be lost for good. And it will not be lost > because of Zardari’s real or perceived corruption or > anything else like that, but because of the silence of the > lambs – we ALL will be responsible if Pakistan fails. > > The writer is a student at Harvard University and turned > down an award from the US ambassador as a mark of protest > against killings of Pakistanis by US drone attacks. Email: > skhurram at fas.harvard.edu > > http://www.thenews.com.pk/daily_detail.asp?id=173372 >   > > > > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to > reader-list-request at sarai.net with subscribe in the subject > header. > To unsubscribe: > https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: > <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> From pkray11 at gmail.com Mon Apr 20 19:45:11 2009 From: pkray11 at gmail.com (prakash ray) Date: Mon, 20 Apr 2009 19:45:11 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] The Communist Conspiracy ! Message-ID: <98f331e00904200715y14c3717bpcbd2585d2b1351d3@mail.gmail.com> Dear Bipin ji, kindly refer to these links to find answers to your questions: visit this page to know about the achievements of the Left Front govt in West Bengal http://www.pragoti.org/node/12 visit the page and click on 'No to Nuclear Deal'. There you will find many write-ups and articles articulatating the position of the Left on the Deal. http://cpim.org/ Thank you PKR From c.anupam at gmail.com Mon Apr 20 20:01:28 2009 From: c.anupam at gmail.com (anupam chakravartty) Date: Mon, 20 Apr 2009 20:01:28 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] The Communist Conspiracy ! In-Reply-To: <98f331e00904200715y14c3717bpcbd2585d2b1351d3@mail.gmail.com> References: <98f331e00904200715y14c3717bpcbd2585d2b1351d3@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <341380d00904200731uaa88338g56ddd858450b59bc@mail.gmail.com> >From tommorow, i will start posting anarchist propaganda. please do not mind dear readers because you have already accepted right, left, and other propaganda so i hope my mails wont be blocked. thank you -- anupam On 4/20/09, prakash ray wrote: > > Dear Bipin ji, > > kindly refer to these links to find answers to your questions: > > visit this page to know about the achievements of the Left Front govt in > West Bengal > > http://www.pragoti.org/node/12 > > visit the page and click on 'No to Nuclear Deal'. There you will find many > write-ups and articles articulatating the position of the Left on the Deal. > > http://cpim.org/ > > > Thank you > > PKR > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > subscribe in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> From kmvenuannur at gmail.com Mon Apr 20 22:03:32 2009 From: kmvenuannur at gmail.com (Venugopalan K M) Date: Mon, 20 Apr 2009 22:03:32 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] The Communist Conspiracy Message-ID: <1f9180970904200933j4b72c9fbk54a9b9c27d70b27f@mail.gmail.com> Dear Prakash Ray, Let me take objection to these points you were raising here: >"The Left does not have any alliance with Madani in Kerala. However, even in you opinion, he is 'allegedly' a terrorist. If a group extend supports to the Left, what it can do... Com Pinarayi Vijayan has never been accused of corruption nor indicted in any report.. Taslima Nasreen was never ousted. The govt merely advised her against staying in Kolkata at that time since some groups had objected..." There has not been any conviction of Maudani despite 10 years of his life had been robbed off by the political manipulators of Kerala and Tamil Nadu with impunity. It is unfortunate that despite Maudani himself having admitted his mistake in trying to take on the Hindutva forces in the aftermath of Babri demolition, by organizing people purely on religious grounds, he's being branded a terrorist! It is like branding Dr Binayak Sen as a Maoist just because he has been implicated in an absolutely false charge and in reality because the world famous doctor and human rights fighter had campaigned against salva judam as an anti-poor civilian force backed by the Corporate giants as well as the state Govt of Chathisgad..Maudani continues to be dubbed a terrorist by the actual terrorists and the politicians of each camp and sections of media who have stake in disturbing peace in Kerala. Secondly, your contention is wrong with respect to Pinarayi's involment in corruption.Actually he is under the shadw of grave accusation and this is the first incident in the country in which any political leader from a left party is chargesheeted by the CBI for a curruption case, following its enquiry. It is another thing that the entire Polit Beareau had come to his rescue,notwithstanding the fact as even his Chieft Minister in fact has gone in record against Pinarayi in this particular case.So it is not just that there is in fact an allegation against Pinarayi,but more than that. The role of WB Govt in the ousting of Taslima was more than evident. Why did the govt shy away from its responsibility just because 'some groups had objected' to her staying in WB? If that were the case,why groups of farmers which objected to giving away their lands to Salim Group's proposed chemcal hub in Nandigram or the ones which opposed losing their agricultural lands to Tata were not treated with bullets and lathis? In the case of dealing with the stagemanaged riots and protests by a handful of Muslim hardcores would have been much easier for a left administration.which enjoyed handsome peoples support in using force to prevent hoolganism. Ever since she mentioned in her autobiography Dwikhandika(2003), of certain intimate relations she had with one or two cultural figures of the state, she had been viewed with less lenience by her leftist friends who ruled her 'dream destination',the leftist WB. This had more to do with the common grounds where the leftists and her Muslim fundamentalist tormentors stood in the matter of women being bold enough to say that they were not bound by the rule of chastity and thus had rights to autonomy over their bodies. So you can have it secretly and yet you should not alow this to be expressed it even in an autibiography! It signifies just something more than personal vendetta.The patriarchal ideolgy is common for Hindus, Muslims and Christians..Here, a woman dares to challenge it even when she stays here at our mercy , consequent to being driven away by her own state..(You can also have an idea of futility in taking being too much of pride of one's own nation and culture; the culture is predominantly male whether it is India or Bangla Desh..whether it is Hindu or Muslim..whether it is Right or the 'Left'!! So these are all issues fraught with too much of intricacies that would elude stock answers to the problems involved. While I wish to be on the side of Pinarayi as one among the few leaders who dared to go beyond the media hue and cry about Maudani having been implicated in the coimbatore serial bomb blasts without any evidence against him.His being projected as a hard core terrorist is just a typical pttern of communal stereotyping of Muslim leaders.It is true that he wanted to lead an organization called Islamic Sevak Sangh(ISS)in the 1990s to counter the violence of RSS ,but later he learned that people will not accept this kind of communal confrontation with this fascist RSS which also enjoyed a great deal of tacit state support even in Kerala where the BJP has not been able to "open its account"(in the assembly and the parliament). On the contrary, I would neither support Pinaray nor his party for the dubious role being played vis a vis the serious charges of corruption as in thre Lavlin case..People could perhaps see through both the communal profiling of Muslim leaders as well as the attempts being made to defend many corrupt practices at party level and in supporting the forces of globalization. Venu. On Sun, Apr 19, 2009 at 2:38 PM, prakash ray wrote: > Dear Rakesh Ji, > > Let me first congrutulate you for your cent percent political > correctedness. > I thank you also for the questions you have asked. I try to reply them. > > 1) The V.P.Singh govt was formed after the congress govt led by Mr Rajiv > Gandhi was voted out. The popular mandate was to form a non-Congress > government. As you know the movement against the Rajiv Gandhi govt was led > by Mr V P Singh, a former congressman and senior cabinet minister in the > previous govt. So, he was the only choice for the top job. The Left Front > ensured that BJP should not be part of the govt. The Front also ensured > that > the govt initiate pro-people policies. If you have even little awareness, > the recomendations of the B P Mandal Commission for reservations of OBCs in > jobs was implemented by the V P Singh govt. You must know that ABVP and > NSUI > supporters violently protested this across the country. The student who was > the first to try to self-immolate was visited by Mr Advani in AIIMS and was > elected as the president of DUSU unopposed as an NSUI candidate. Mr > Advani's > bloody Rath-yatra was stopped in Bihar and he was arrested. soonafter, the > BJP decided to withdraw support but the Left stood strongly with V P Singh. > The Congress broke the Janata Dal and made Mr Chandrashekhar the PM. > However, soon they withdraw support and it collapsed. The Left continue to > ally with the secularists like Laloo and Mulayam to contain the communal > politics of the RSS-BJP. You must know that period was the most dangerous > period for the secular India. Moreover, during this period, an ultra-Left > student organisation AISA was formed as the student wing of > CPI-ML-Liberation which raised slogans of 'No Mandal, No Kamandal, Inqalab > Zindabad' and swept the students union polls in many campuse in the > northern > part of the country. For its political bankruptcy and opportunism, it soon > lost its glory and the ABVP replaced it in these campuses. > > I hope you understand the context of the support to the VP Singh govt. The > importance of that govt lies in the fact that it broke the tradition of > Congress's political hegemony and new political formations/parties earned > importance. If you still want to call it a political opportunism, I have > nothing more to say on this. > > The way you have ridiculed the Mandal Report and blamed the Left for the > rise of the Kamandal politics, you need to introspect. Was it wrong to > implement the Report? Would it have been correct to let the Congress rule > the country? What should you have done if you were a member of Lok Sabha at > that time? > > 2) The Left is working towards the formation of a non-Congress and non-BJP > front. The Left had supported the UPA govt led by the Congress respecting > the mandate for a secular govt. But, the Congress betrayed the commitment > articulated in the CMP. Despite having differences and apprehensions, the > Left is trying to build an alliance on the broader agenda of secularism, > democracy, pro-people policies, anti-imperialism. You must note the fact > that many parties are joining hands with the Left leaving the NDA and the > UPA. Moreover, the Congress, Laloo and Mulayam are praising the Left for > its > positive role. Also, CPI-ML-Liberation has joined forces this time with the > Left in Bihar. Mind you, in politics or in life, one has to make alliances. > Life cannot be run only by irresponsible cynicism or anarchism. > > 3) The BJD realised its blunders and left the BJP. Let me tell you little > more that the Left and the BJD have joined hands with the NCP in Orissa to > defeate the Congress and the BJP. You should not be surprised if you learn > that JD-U also joins the Left soon after the general elections. > > 4) As far as the Bengal govt is concerned, there is a great need to > generate > jobs. This is also true for the entire country. I share the concern > regarding the mode of development adopted by various parties including the > Left. The Left cannot and must not implement policies/programmes which can > go against the people. The events in Nandigram and Singur were disturbing > and the Left govt must learn a lesson. However, the situation was made > worse > by the TMC-Maoists combine aided by the Congress and the BJP. The need of > the hour is to formulate a comprehensive developmental policy keeping all > aspects in consideration. b > > 5) The Left does not have any alliance with Madani in Kerala. However, even > in you opinion, he is 'allegedly' a terrorist. If a group extend supports > to > the Left, what it can do. As far as the central agencies are concerned, > they > are themselves communal in character and also they have only registered > failures as far as terrorism is concerned. The Big Boss of these agencies, > Nation Security Advisor, takes more interest in deals and lobbying. > > Taslima Nasreen was never ousted. The govt merely advised her against > staying in Kolkata at that time since some groups had objected. It was a > momentary step. You must know that after that episode, Ms Nasreen has > visited Kolkata several times. > > 6) Com Pinarayi Vijayan has never been accused of corruption nor indicted > in > any report. The enquiry is still on. Till it is over, stop yourself from > acting as a judge. > > PKR > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > subscribe in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> > -- http://venukm.blogspot.com/ From sub_sengupta at yahoo.co.in Mon Apr 20 22:11:53 2009 From: sub_sengupta at yahoo.co.in (subhrodip sengupta) Date: Mon, 20 Apr 2009 22:11:53 +0530 (IST) Subject: [Reader-list] Lets be clear first Message-ID: <989926.91094.qm@web94707.mail.in2.yahoo.com> Words and Identity: I think one has to proceed step by step while I was talking about the modus operandi of riots caused during rathajatra, some people said the reverse also happens. Indeed is that for how long can human society accept any purpoted harm other than self defence? Whether 'Hindu' means a specific belief or community. If you say community and define some specific groups your opponent and restrict yourself unless they surrender, then you are not 'open'. If due to some mishap, the word is used to define Ancientism or some specific faith within the country, a set of rules you can not choose from example visit any other Nation,even if you have more interests in your motherland, then they are Fascist! You know the worst part all these crimes, the filth from any side prove one thing ------ This is again the age old struggle for the Nation as much extensive and deep as possible, certainly NOT for it's people. Fight by commoners would be revolution, and thats on nobodie's agenda. This may not be in interest of descendants or present, but definitely a source of power, a large economy and worlds thir largest population, and seventh largest territory!And none is ready to accept one thing To ERR iS HUMAN, Human Beings commit crime and before that they could belong to any faith or party, by hiding them we malign the entire community. By continuously denying or worse, resorting to Chauvinism, HUm Kab tak Chup baithenge, WE CRIMINALISE THE SYSTEM, which must put an end to wrongdoers, A BAD SYSTEM IS RISKY TO ITSELF A BAD KING IS NEVER RISKY TO THE SYSTEM. If your leader is corrupted, remove him, at least you can do the same to followers instead of defending and denying. Thats where we find it difficult to believe every word you said and try to find hidden implications or conspiracies. What is individual is a set of character unique or at most differentiable. By a conglomerate or a group we can not deny individuality by defn. Or avoid the notion altogether for a and b is same as not a implies b or that not a but b is true. Thus after this how can sum deny indivuduality. all the higher forms of reduction and deduction are based on this or it'll be better : do not define traits and let them evolve uniquely, at least let conditions show which are a basis for truth, like V is true under a set of conditions. By meaning double words, like why not replace hindutva by bharatiyata, which is also a hindu word but not restricted to one faith. we are actually wanting to wage a battle for the nation never the people who reside in it, because some of them are not us but traitors, similarly some would think the same for their own people. There are no absolutes, things must be taken with a pinch of salt and at times a lot of pepper too.. By dwelving in History and accusing each other of murder we are branding each of us as murderers. Either Say we want Democracy or Say we do not. Trust me, democracy of billions may be a bluff. But state this & what you intend to do next, to the people, how it will change thir life, for rights and betterment can be done by a dictator and human rights and culture smashed brutally by an elected setup. Where both PM candidates say the same thing which they claim is unique is dangerous and they say a truth fighting for nation, not it's people. Under certain conditions only when you recognise it implies else it does not. The criminal must be identified but by the Society and not King & off course action speaks louder than words, specially where unconstitutional and non-enforable remarks are made. The Better Evil game is subjective and as long as vested interests argue for them, they always do, ETERNAL. So Lets avoid it. On election eve where a lot of things are being said including the precarious presumption VOTE! Now surf faster and smarter ! Check out the new Firefox 3 - Yahoo! Edition http://downloads.yahoo.com/in/firefox/ From sub_sengupta at yahoo.co.in Mon Apr 20 23:20:06 2009 From: sub_sengupta at yahoo.co.in (subhrodip sengupta) Date: Mon, 20 Apr 2009 23:20:06 +0530 (IST) Subject: [Reader-list] news posted on google Message-ID: <5502.77908.qm@web94715.mail.in2.yahoo.com> Scientist Stephen Hawking 'very ill' Scientist and author Stephen Hawking is "very ill" and has been hospitalized, according to Cambridge University, where he is a professor. plus this bit, shirk to think what that means! Nokia's Messaging Service Free For Now you'll be charged for data trnssfer. Now surf faster and smarter ! Check out the new Firefox 3 - Yahoo! Edition http://downloads.yahoo.com/in/firefox/ From sub_sengupta at yahoo.co.in Mon Apr 20 23:41:42 2009 From: sub_sengupta at yahoo.co.in (subhrodip sengupta) Date: Mon, 20 Apr 2009 23:41:42 +0530 (IST) Subject: [Reader-list] Fw: Lets be clear first Message-ID: <635143.90418.qm@web94716.mail.in2.yahoo.com> this is not a propaganda or a manifesto but simple ideas i'd like to comment or share! ----- Forwarded Message ---- From: subhrodip sengupta To: Readers list Yousuf Sarai. Sent: Monday, 20 April, 2009 10:11:53 PM Subject: Lets be clear first Words and Identity: I think one has to proceed step by step while I was talking about the modus operandi of riots caused during rathajatra, some people said the reverse also happens. Indeed is that for how long can human society accept any purpoted harm other than self defence? Whether 'Hindu' means a specific belief or community. If you say community and define some specific groups your opponent and restrict yourself unless they surrender, then you are not 'open'. If due to some mishap, the word is used to define Ancientism or some specific faith within the country, a set of rules you can not choose from example visit any other Nation,even if you have more interests in your motherland, then they are Fascist! You know the worst part all these crimes, the filth from any side prove one thing ------ This is again the age old struggle for the Nation as much extensive and deep as possible, certainly NOT for it's people. Fight by commoners would be revolution, and thats on nobodie's agenda. This may not be in interest of descendants or present, but definitely a source of power, a large economy and worlds thir largest population, and seventh largest territory!And none is ready to accept one thing To ERR iS HUMAN, Human Beings commit crime and before that they could belong to any faith or party, by hiding them we malign the entire community. By continuously denying or worse, resorting to Chauvinism, HUm Kab tak Chup baithenge, WE CRIMINALISE THE SYSTEM, which must put an end to wrongdoers, A BAD SYSTEM IS RISKY TO ITSELF A BAD KING IS NEVER RISKY TO THE SYSTEM. If your leader is corrupted, remove him, at least you can do the same to followers instead of defending and denying. Thats where we find it difficult to believe every word you said and try to find hidden implications or conspiracies. What is individual is a set of character unique or at most differentiable. By a conglomerate or a group we can not deny individuality by defn. Or avoid the notion altogether for a and b is same as not a implies b or that not a but b is true. Thus after this how can sum deny indivuduality. all the higher forms of reduction and deduction are based on this or it'll be better : do not define traits and let them evolve uniquely, at least let conditions show which are a basis for truth, like V is true under a set of conditions. By meaning double words, like why not replace hindutva by bharatiyata, which is also a hindu word but not restricted to one faith. we are actually wanting to wage a battle for the nation never the people who reside in it, because some of them are not us but traitors, similarly some would think the same for their own people. There are no absolutes, things must be taken with a pinch of salt and at times a lot of pepper too.. By dwelving in History and accusing each other of murder we are branding each of us as murderers. Either Say we want Democracy or Say we do not. Trust me, democracy of billions may be a bluff. But state this & what you intend to do next, to the people, how it will change thir life, for rights and betterment can be done by a dictator and human rights and culture smashed brutally by an elected setup. Where both PM candidates say the same thing which they claim is unique is dangerous and they say a truth fighting for nation, not it's people. Under certain conditions only when you recognise it implies else it does not. The criminal must be identified but by the Society and not King & off course action speaks louder than words, specially where unconstitutional and non-enforable remarks are made. The Better Evil game is subjective and as long as vested interests argue for them, they always do, ETERNAL, till now no synthesis, or resolution is reached. So Lets avoid it.What we find is a partial synthesis in which a false convergence, false because conflict goes on the same topic, rather than total where new arenas would be sought. This is following kalecki, a political Eyewash. On election eve where a lot of things are being said including the precarious presumption VOTE! ________________________________ Now surf faster and smarter ! Check out the new Firefox 3 - Yahoo! Edition * Click here! Share files, take polls, and make new friends - all under one roof. Go to http://in.promos.yahoo.com/groups/ From sub_sengupta at yahoo.co.in Tue Apr 21 00:37:06 2009 From: sub_sengupta at yahoo.co.in (subhrodip sengupta) Date: Tue, 21 Apr 2009 00:37:06 +0530 (IST) Subject: [Reader-list] A HUMBLE APPEAL====NO CHEATING PLEASE. Message-ID: <570415.37455.qm@web94701.mail.in2.yahoo.com> I think some University of Delhi's people, student/staff/friends of the same might be on the List and hence I earnestly hope they read and agree. As a critic,a hinest one I am r eady to bear the consequenses of the Below. For a decade ago a teacher could have lost his life on this. Micro-Xerox, thora touch up,chits, and chit-chatting, mordern sms, wi-fi! All these are methods of Hall-collection, which nowadays are to limited extent not at all unfair means or cheating but a bit practical, politics, etc. Through my discussions I have always claimed, Cheating nowadays is Authority Sponsored, at your own risk types, thoda bahut chalta, coz it fetches good marks! Thats something everybody within the system likes, and off course not everyone can cheat efficiently, you need to study for that too. For others it is the same course they took to come upto this juncture, sad but true. So this kind of political handshake is made, as a flow of vitality some senior teachers take juniors appeals too lightly. Now I hope to change this, at least appeal them too, for they are, by far more learned and have attained a degree of perfection at convincing, themselves at least when it comes to any matter. There is smartness in cheating and efficiency, true, at the same time there is favouritism dishonest and laxes on authorities behalf. But look at the first proposition in allowing it --- the system is pretty messed up, with questions not set in order that proper zeal and hard work be paid without a touch up. Cheating allows these errors to deepen, while a group of smart people who emerge with flying colours do not necessarily include the proficient, and satisfies the need of the gradation system sans challenging it. And who are happy? People in power! Damn it, only thing that comes out is the General trend of EDucation falters. The ethos and strict code of conduct and quality need not be ashered too, plus incompetent people come in and out. Thats not all this is a way in which Disparities within system rises,, cheating tries to justify them, fools are those who can not or do not. Resullt? ALL SUFFER, with a unmanagable vast syllabus, Questions that are difficult for teachers to solve, in promp tu and a growing dis-satisfaction with teachers or dis belief in their need. I have seen people having samosa's and having their back turned around. Evem turning put of class snatching material or subtle forms are Harsh nowadays, with Benevolent Father and mother Figures teaching Everybody. Well I'd never each him to do so. See the system is irrational one it needs to thrown away, using protest, and not smartness, theifs are usually the biggesy accumulators and vice versa. Some body said, after halla bol Devagn ko la bandh kare, ya phir GFs ke saamne disclose karein, but there were cost problems,the last outcome was a joke and irritable remark by one good honest friend whos cleared IIM-A, tu raandi la ker dikha, mein guarentee leta hoon! Surely, I hope we'd not have to get this low to clear the inefficiencies or claiming to be perfectionists at cost of others. Well I tell you another story, now even clerks were relaxing so nobody came to warn, while invigillartors turned their back and feasted, a Guy was caught, his first time, lost a year, worse another girl was caught, she seemingly had some UPSc cadres to her defence, so to cheat you need an UPSC baap too! REVERSING this may cause some shame to our students, and I here doesnt belong to any particular college. Strictness is lacking, allowing laxes. However petty the paper be, however slight attempt be, remember at root this is no efficiency! Be a bot tough, send one report. For those guy's sake who followed your instructions from DAY 1. Guys say no for honours sake, would you like to prove to others too that you are a coward? Who else will fight for the wrongs you suffered, who else will seek revenge for wasting time and energy, remember a golden handshake is often risky, do not make it a habbit! Who else will lead? I'd not leave hope, when I establish myself, I'd protest, against final exams as well as against all means to hide it's contradictions, OH my fellow students, Oh the learned ones, who sow the basic seed of discontent and crititcal imagination, Protest! Then hopefully we'd have fairer results, by Maxian dialectics a better system! A system where flow of knowledge accompanies flow of personal expertise and traits, Where learning is a delightful exchange of thought and Vitality, where price doesnt define quality of education. Not all our feudal values were bad after all! Now surf faster and smarter ! Check out the new Firefox 3 - Yahoo! Edition http://downloads.yahoo.com/in/firefox/ From 2tahamehmood at googlemail.com Tue Apr 21 04:58:09 2009 From: 2tahamehmood at googlemail.com (Taha Mehmood) Date: Tue, 21 Apr 2009 00:28:09 +0100 Subject: [Reader-list] Myth Called the 'Indian Muslim' Message-ID: <65be9bf40904201628o3573046ai285b59272f3910c8@mail.gmail.com> Dear All, Pasted below is one more instance of irresponsible reportage by the BBC. The issue at hand is a mythical hobby horse of all political parties called the 'Indian Muslim'. This report is laced with gross generalizations like, 'Arrests and alleged extrajudicial killings of Muslim youths have angered many in the Islamic community.' 'Islamic Community' Really? How does Mr. Bagchi knows this about 'Islamic Community', we don't know? In the same regard, no one will question our informed journo, what the HELL is this 'Islamic community' or where is it, if it exists? Even the headline of the story is meant to suggest that in fact there exists something called the 'India's all-important Muslim vote' :) Regards Taha http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/south_asia/7998819.stm India's all-important Muslim vote By Suvojit Bagchi BBC News, Delhi The Indian government's "war against terror" may cost the Congress party dearly in the election. Arrests and alleged extrajudicial killings of Muslim youths have angered many in the Islamic community. "People in power have branded us as terrorists and used us as a vote bank, this cannot go on," said the all-powerful cleric of Delhi's Jama Masjid mosque, Syed Ahmed Bukhari, in a recent press conference. Speaking about the deaths of two Muslim students allegedly at the hands of police in South Delhi's Muslim area last October, Mr Bukhari said the Muslim community "wants justice". 'Safety and security' This sense of injustice has resulted in the formation of new Muslim political parties over recent months. These parties believe in Indian parliamentary democracy and say they are working to "strengthen" it. The party manifestos unanimously emphasise the "safety and security" of all communities, especially Muslims. "The security of Muslims is one big issue, as after every blast in India a series of arrests of Muslim youths takes place," said a spokesperson for the influential All India Muslim Personal Law Board. Muslim men were "systematically killed" in routine police encounters, he alleged. Muslims comprise more than 13% of India's population and many are aggrieved that proportionately they only have about half that much representation in parliament. More than two dozen Muslim political parties, big and small, are contesting these elections - almost double the figure of the last election. The prominent players are the Assam United Democratic Front (AUDF), Ulema Council and Indian Peace Party in Uttar Pradesh, Tamil Muslim Munettra Khazhagam in Tamil Nadu, the People's Democratic Council in West Bengal and veterans like the Muslim League and Indian National League in Kerala, the Democratic Secular Party in Bihar and the Majlis-e Ittihad al-Muslimin in Andhra Pradesh. Interestingly, even the staunchest supporters of these parties do not believe they are going to win. "Our primary aim is to erode the vote of the Congress party and then to win a few seats," says Buranuddin Qasmi, an election analyst of the AUDF. Meanwhile, many Muslims are questioning the logic behind the hasty launch of such parties. They argue that a party like the Ulema Council will not even be able to emerge as a minor player because it lacks proper planning and goals. Statistics show the parties that manage to win the votes of low caste people along with the Muslim vote bank have a strong chance of winning. Since India's independence from British rule, Congress has been getting a sizeable chunk of Muslim votes at national level, largely because Muslims felt they had to prove their loyalty to India in early post-partition days, experts say. In India, the Muslim League and its president, Mohammad Ali Jinnah, are held responsible for dividing India and creating Pakistan. Muslims who stayed in India have traditionally supported Congress since independence "to prove their loyalty". Empowered Yogendra Yadav, the noted political commentator, feels that Muslim parties have "come of age". "Fifty years into independence, the trauma of partition prevented Muslim political parties from conceiving a politics of their own," he says. Muslims in Delhi Many Muslims have questioned the proliferation of Islamic parties "But they are slowly getting out of it. In the last decade or so they have been speaking for themselves - a very positive sign for Muslims as well as for democracy," Mr Yadav says. The figures seem to support his claims - the proliferation of new political parties means that no one party is expected to get more than 60% of Muslim votes. But Congress believes Muslims cannot be empowered by a Muslim party alone. "Muslim parties have traditionally voted for Congress and will continue to do so, as they know only a majority party like Congress with secular credentials can empower them," says Imran-ur Rehman Kidwai, the chief of the party's Minority Cell. He also brushed aside the fact that there is any kind of "insecurity among Muslim youth", calling it a "non-issue". But whatever Mr Kidwai says, in at least one state a Muslim party is creating serious trouble for Congress. The Islamic vote in Assam makes up more more than 20% of Muslim votes and appears to be making forays into Congress bastions. The Hindu nationalist BJP - which Muslims tend to vote against - could win in the state. But that has not stopped the AUDF from running anti-Congress campaigns. "Enough of that - whenever Muslims vote against Congress, it is said to be in favour of the BJP. Can't we ever raise our voice because of right-wing parties like the BJP?" the AUDF's election analyst, Buranuddin Qasmi, asks. The real Achilles' heel for Congress is the Sachar Report - a prime ministerial committee that recommended several measures to improve the living conditions of Muslims in India. Initiated by Congress and tabled in parliament in 2006, the report has become central to the Indian Muslim community and is often quoted to voice their grievances. During election campaigns, Muslim parties have pointed out that none of the recommendations of this report have been implemented. "Congress and Manmohan Singh may have done a commendable job in commissioning a report of this magnitude. But the minority affairs ministry has done literally nothing to implement it, with the exception of giving scholarships to Muslim students," Dr Abu Saleh Shariff, member-secretary of the Sachar Committee Report, told the BBC. However, Imran Kidwai says that 19 out of 22 of its recommendations have been implemented. "Muslims will vote for Congress," he confidently predicted. From 2tahamehmood at googlemail.com Tue Apr 21 05:22:53 2009 From: 2tahamehmood at googlemail.com (Taha Mehmood) Date: Tue, 21 Apr 2009 00:52:53 +0100 Subject: [Reader-list] Who are these 'Indian Muslims', Anyways? Message-ID: <65be9bf40904201652w1224b2dka3b38dc3d562603e@mail.gmail.com> Dear All Pasted below is an excerpt from the Sachhar Committee report (p 192-193), deconstructing the caste breakup of 'Indian Muslims' who come under the OBC category. (http://minorityaffairs.gov.in/newsite/sachar/sachar_comm.pdf) I am still curious as to why the Union Home ministry did not allow its data on the religious make up of accused and convicted persons in our prisons to be shared with the Committee? What was the need to not disclose it? Why is it that, barring few exceptions, members of our national media, both electronic and press, who otherwise show utmost proclivity, in reporting any event which affects the 'Islamic Community' in India did not question this omission? Regards Taha Sociological studies on the social structure of Muslims in India have emphasized on the presence of descent based social stratification among them. Features of the Hindu caste system, such as hierarchical ordering of social groups, endogamy and hereditary occupation have been found to be amply present among the Indian Muslims as well. The Census of India, 1901 listed 133 social groups wholly or partially Muslim. The present day Muslim Society in India is divided into four major groups: (i) the Ashrafs who trace their origins to foreign lands such as Arabia, Persia, Turkistan or Afghanistan, (ii) the upper caste Hindus who converted to Islam, (iii) the middle caste converts whose occupations are ritually clean, (iv) the converts from the erstwhile untouchable castes, Bhangi (scavenger), Mehtar (sweeper), Chamar (tanner), Dom and so on. These four groups are usually placed into two broad categories, namely, ‘ashraf’ and ‘ajlaf’. The former, meaning noble, includes all Muslims of foreign blood and converts from higher castes. While ‘ajlaf’ meaning degraded or unholy, embraces the ritually clean occupational groups and low ranking converts. In Bihar, U.P and Bengal, Sayyads, Sheikhs, Moghuls and Pathans constitute the ‘ashrafs’. The ‘ajlaf’, are carpenters, artisans, painters, graziers, tanners, milkmen etc.8 According to the Census of 1901, the ajlaf category includes ‘the various classes of converts who are known as Nao Muslim in Bihar and Nasya in North Bengal. It also includes various functional groups such as that of the Jolaha or weaver, Dhunia or cotton-carder, Kulu or oil-presser, Kunjra or vegetable-seller, Hajjam or barber, Darzi or tailor, and the like.’9 The 1901 Census also recorded the presence of a third category called Arzal: ‘It consists of the very lowest castes, such as the Halalkhor, Lalbegi, Abdal, and Bediya...’10 Similar pattern of descent based social stratification is discernible in other regions as well. In Kerala, the Moplahs of Malabar, are divided into five ranked sections called the Thangals, Arabis, Malbaris, Pusalars and Ossans. The Thangals trace their descent from the Prophet’s daughter, Fatima, and are of the highest rank. Next in rank are the Arabis, who claim descent from the Arab men and local women and retain their Arab lineage. The Malbaris are next in rank. They have lost their Arab lineage and follow matrilineal descent. The Pusalars are the converts from Hindu fishermen called Mukkuvan, the new Muslims. They have low status. The Ossans are the barbers, and by virtue of their occupation, they rank lowest.11 In Andhra Pradesh, a field study conducted in 1987 found hierarchically arranged endogamous groups among Muslims. At the top of the ladder were those claiming foreign descent—Syeds, Shaikh, Pathan and Labbai (descendants of Arab traders who took native wives). At the lowest level were groups with ‘unclean’ occupations-Dudekula (cotton cleaners), Hazam (barbers) and Fakir-budbudki (mendicants).12 Muslim groups currently bracketed under the category ‘OBC’ come essentially from the non-ashraf section of the Muslim population. They are the converts from the middle and lower caste Hindus and are identified with their traditional occupation. A study of a village in Uttar Pradesh could identify eighteen such groups, for example, Julahas (weavers), Mirasis (singers), Darzis (tailors), Halwais (sweetmakers), manihars (banglemakers) and so on.13 The 1911 Census listed some 102 caste groups among Muslims in Uttar pradesh, at least 97 of them came from the non-ashraf category. Many such groups such as the Rajputs, Kayasthas, Koeris, Koris, Kumhars, Kurmis, Malis, Mochis were common among both Hindus and Muslims. Since the Constitutional (Scheduled Caste) Order, 1950, popularly known as the Presidential Order (1950), restricts the SC status only to Hindu groups having ‘unclean’ occupations,14 their non-Hindu equivalents have been bracketed with the middle caste converts and declared OBC. Thus, the OBCs among Muslims constitute two broad categories. The halalkhors, helas, lalbegis or bhangis (scavengers), dhobis (washermen), nais or hajjams (barbers), chiks (butchers), faqirs (beggars) etc belonging to the ‘Arzals’ are the ‘untouchable converts’ to Islam that have found their way in the OBC list. The momins or julahas (weavers), darzi or idiris (tailors), rayeens or kunjaras (vegetable sellers) are Ajlafs or converts from ‘clean’ occupational castes. Thus, one can discern three groups among Muslims: (1) those without any social disabilities, the ashrafs; (2) those equivalent to Hindu OBCs, the ajlafs, and (3) those equivalent to Hindu SCs, the arzals. Those who are referred to as Muslim OBCs combine (2) and (3). From kmvenuannur at gmail.com Tue Apr 21 08:23:48 2009 From: kmvenuannur at gmail.com (Venugopalan K M) Date: Tue, 21 Apr 2009 08:23:48 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Who are these 'Indian Muslims', Anyways? In-Reply-To: <65be9bf40904201652w1224b2dka3b38dc3d562603e@mail.gmail.com> References: <65be9bf40904201652w1224b2dka3b38dc3d562603e@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <1f9180970904201953u34dc4d89k975ed247acae2970@mail.gmail.com> Nice post; thank you,Taha. Regards, Venu. On Tue, Apr 21, 2009 at 5:22 AM, Taha Mehmood <2tahamehmood at googlemail.com>wrote: > Dear All > > Pasted below is an excerpt from the Sachhar Committee report (p > 192-193), deconstructing the caste breakup of 'Indian Muslims' who > come under the OBC category. > > (http://minorityaffairs.gov.in/newsite/sachar/sachar_comm.pdf) > > I am still curious as to why the Union Home ministry did not allow its > data on the religious make up of accused and convicted persons in our > prisons to be shared with the Committee? What was the need to not > disclose it? Why is it that, barring few exceptions, members of our > national media, both electronic and press, who otherwise show utmost > proclivity, in reporting any event which affects the 'Islamic > Community' in India did not question this omission? > > Regards > > Taha > > Sociological studies on the social structure of Muslims in India have > emphasized > on the presence of descent based social stratification among them. > Features of the > Hindu caste system, such as hierarchical ordering of social groups, > endogamy and > hereditary occupation have been found to be amply present among the Indian > Muslims as well. The Census of India, 1901 listed 133 social groups wholly > or > partially Muslim. The present day Muslim Society in India is divided into > four > major groups: (i) the Ashrafs who trace their origins to foreign lands > such as Arabia, > Persia, Turkistan or Afghanistan, (ii) the upper caste Hindus who converted > to > Islam, (iii) the middle caste converts whose occupations are ritually > clean, (iv) the > converts from the erstwhile untouchable castes, Bhangi (scavenger), Mehtar > (sweeper), Chamar (tanner), Dom and so on. > > These four groups are usually placed into two broad categories, namely, > ‘ashraf’ > and ‘ajlaf’. The former, meaning noble, includes all Muslims of > foreign blood and > converts from higher castes. While ‘ajlaf’ meaning degraded or unholy, > embraces > the ritually clean occupational groups and low ranking converts. In > Bihar, U.P and > Bengal, Sayyads, Sheikhs, Moghuls and Pathans constitute the > ‘ashrafs’. The ‘ajlaf’, > are carpenters, artisans, painters, graziers, tanners, milkmen etc.8 > According to the > Census of 1901, the ajlaf category includes ‘the various classes of > converts who are > known as Nao Muslim in Bihar and Nasya in North Bengal. It also includes > various > functional groups such as that of the Jolaha or weaver, Dhunia or > cotton-carder, > Kulu or oil-presser, Kunjra or vegetable-seller, Hajjam or barber, > Darzi or tailor, and > the like.’9 The 1901 Census also recorded the presence of a third > category called > Arzal: ‘It consists of the very lowest castes, such as the Halalkhor, > Lalbegi, Abdal, > and Bediya...’10 > > Similar pattern of descent based social stratification is discernible > in other regions > as well. In Kerala, the Moplahs of Malabar, are divided into five > ranked sections > called the Thangals, Arabis, Malbaris, Pusalars and Ossans. The Thangals > trace > their descent from the Prophet’s daughter, Fatima, and are of the highest > rank. > Next in rank are the Arabis, who claim descent from the Arab men and local > women and retain their Arab lineage. The Malbaris are next in rank. > They have lost > their Arab lineage and follow matrilineal descent. The Pusalars are the > converts > from Hindu fishermen called Mukkuvan, the new Muslims. They have low > status. > The Ossans are the barbers, and by virtue of their occupation, they > rank lowest.11 > In Andhra Pradesh, a field study conducted in 1987 found hierarchically > arranged > endogamous groups among Muslims. At the top of the ladder were those > claiming > foreign descent—Syeds, Shaikh, Pathan and Labbai (descendants of Arab > traders > who took native wives). At the lowest level were groups with ‘unclean’ > occupations-Dudekula (cotton cleaners), Hazam (barbers) and Fakir-budbudki > (mendicants).12 > > Muslim groups currently bracketed under the category ‘OBC’ come essentially > from > the non-ashraf section of the Muslim population. They are the converts from > the > middle and lower caste Hindus and are identified with their > traditional occupation. A > study of a village in Uttar Pradesh could identify eighteen such > groups, for example, > Julahas (weavers), Mirasis (singers), Darzis (tailors), Halwais > (sweetmakers), > manihars (banglemakers) and so on.13 The 1911 Census listed some 102 > caste groups > among Muslims in Uttar pradesh, at least 97 of them came from the > non-ashraf > category. Many such groups such as the Rajputs, Kayasthas, Koeris, > Koris, Kumhars, > Kurmis, Malis, Mochis were common among both Hindus and Muslims. > > Since the Constitutional (Scheduled Caste) Order, 1950, popularly known as > the > Presidential Order (1950), restricts the SC status only to Hindu groups > having > ‘unclean’ occupations,14 their non-Hindu equivalents have been bracketed > with > the middle caste converts and declared OBC. Thus, the OBCs among Muslims > constitute two broad categories. The halalkhors, helas, lalbegis or bhangis > (scavengers), dhobis (washermen), nais or hajjams (barbers), chiks > (butchers), > faqirs (beggars) etc belonging to the ‘Arzals’ are the ‘untouchable > converts’ to Islam > that have found their way in the OBC list. The momins or julahas > (weavers), darzi > or idiris (tailors), rayeens or kunjaras (vegetable sellers) are > Ajlafs or converts from > ‘clean’ occupational castes. Thus, one can discern three groups among > Muslims: > (1) those without any social disabilities, the ashrafs; (2) those > equivalent to Hindu > OBCs, the ajlafs, and (3) those equivalent to Hindu SCs, the arzals. > Those who are > referred to as Muslim OBCs combine (2) and (3). > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > subscribe in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> -- http://venukm.blogspot.com/ From kmvenuannur at gmail.com Tue Apr 21 09:30:42 2009 From: kmvenuannur at gmail.com (Venugopalan K M) Date: Tue, 21 Apr 2009 09:30:42 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Myth Called the 'Indian Muslim' In-Reply-To: <65be9bf40904201628o3573046ai285b59272f3910c8@mail.gmail.com> References: <65be9bf40904201628o3573046ai285b59272f3910c8@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <1f9180970904202100m2a329dc8i8718417566b97e2a@mail.gmail.com> Dear Taha, Whether we accept or not this kind of whimsical generalizations  about Indian Muslim, I am afraid one cannot afford to miss the underlying subtext of "Islam as the Other" not only in India,but all over the globe. No doubt we can challenge it; but one will rather do so with concerns about its implication in the  social lives of Muslims everywhere. For example, even a Muslim name could become problematic in a real life situation in many parts of the world notwithstanding the fact that you may be an agnostic or Marxist! We are aware of the fact that even a person like Eshan Jaffry(pardon the spelling) with the status of a prominent  ex parliamentarian Congress leader was not able to escape the horrendous consequences of that. So, Muslims are doubly burdened with defending the identity on the one hand, as well as challenging it on the other. The case of Taslima is an extreme one in point. Eventhough she is not a Muslim by conviction, she represents the plight of all female believers in a Muslim theocracy where a particular definition of Islam became the basis for conceding or denying citizenship. Fatima Mernissi, in her Women and Islam has defined Muslim in a narrower (or broader?)sense that would include all the subjects of a theocratic state and its personal laws, and independent of one's personal convictions vis a vis the faith. In short, I would say that there indeed exists a concept of 'Muslim voter' in India,  notwithstanding that individual voters might challenge this blanket concept in a particular context and would endorse the same in another context. In my view, there is nothing reprehensible in acting in this manner, when we take into considerations the imperatives of grave challenges to the very existence of divergent faiths in India which is actually rooted in the ideology of Brahmanical Hindutwa. This is the most deplorable form of cultural nationalism, which likes to ground the very idea of citizenship in it. Even the Indian constitution is anathema to this band of nationalists,who fortunately did not enjoy the mandate of more than a fifth of all Indian voters even in their best days! In the 2004 elections they seemed dangerously close to a second tenure of office thanks to the oprtunist realpolitiking by the regional parties and to the support of the upper caste dominated media. But the common people proved that they had not only the eyes and ears to see through all, but they also had the wisdom to give a fitting response Regards, Venu. On Tue, Apr 21, 2009 at 4:58 AM, Taha Mehmood <2tahamehmood at googlemail.com> wrote: > > Dear All, > > Pasted below is one more instance of irresponsible reportage by the > BBC. The issue at hand is a mythical hobby horse of all political > parties called the  'Indian Muslim'. > >  This report is laced with gross generalizations like, 'Arrests and > alleged extrajudicial killings of Muslim youths have angered many in > the Islamic community.' > > 'Islamic Community' Really? How does Mr. Bagchi knows this about > 'Islamic Community', we don't know? In the same regard, no one will > question our informed journo, what the HELL is this 'Islamic > community' or where is it, if it exists? > > Even the headline of the story is meant to suggest that in fact there > exists something called the 'India's all-important Muslim vote' :) > > Regards > > Taha > > > http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/south_asia/7998819.stm > > India's all-important Muslim vote > > By Suvojit Bagchi > BBC News, Delhi > > > The Indian government's "war against terror" may cost the Congress > party dearly in the election. > > Arrests and alleged extrajudicial killings of Muslim youths have > angered many in the Islamic community. > > "People in power have branded us as terrorists and used us as a vote > bank, this cannot go on," said the all-powerful cleric of Delhi's Jama > Masjid mosque, Syed Ahmed Bukhari, in a recent press conference. > > Speaking about the deaths of two Muslim students allegedly at the > hands of police in South Delhi's Muslim area last October, Mr Bukhari > said the Muslim community "wants justice". > > 'Safety and security' > > This sense of injustice has resulted in the formation of new Muslim > political parties over recent months. > > > > These parties believe in Indian parliamentary democracy and say they > are working to "strengthen" it. > > The party manifestos unanimously emphasise the "safety and security" > of all communities, especially Muslims. > > "The security of Muslims is one big issue, as after every blast in > India a series of arrests of Muslim youths takes place," said a > spokesperson for the influential All India Muslim Personal Law Board. > > Muslim men were "systematically killed" in routine police encounters, > he alleged. > > Muslims comprise more than 13% of India's population and many are > aggrieved that proportionately they only have about half that much > representation in parliament. > > More than two dozen Muslim political parties, big and small, are > contesting these elections - almost double the figure of the last > election. > > The prominent players are the Assam United Democratic Front (AUDF), > Ulema Council and Indian Peace Party in Uttar Pradesh, Tamil Muslim > Munettra Khazhagam in Tamil Nadu, the People's Democratic Council in > West Bengal and veterans like the Muslim League and Indian National > League in Kerala, the Democratic Secular Party in Bihar and the > Majlis-e Ittihad al-Muslimin in Andhra Pradesh. > > > > Interestingly, even the staunchest supporters of these parties do not > believe they are going to win. > > "Our primary aim is to erode the vote of the Congress party and then > to win a few seats," says Buranuddin Qasmi, an election analyst of the > AUDF. > > Meanwhile, many Muslims are questioning the logic behind the hasty > launch of such parties. > > They argue that a party like the Ulema Council will not even be able > to emerge as a minor player because it lacks proper planning and > goals. > > Statistics show the parties that manage to win the votes of low caste > people along with the Muslim vote bank have a strong chance of > winning. > > Since India's independence from British rule, Congress has been > getting a sizeable chunk of Muslim votes at national level, largely > because Muslims felt they had to prove their loyalty to India in early > post-partition days, experts say. > > In India, the Muslim League and its president, Mohammad Ali Jinnah, > are held responsible for dividing India and creating Pakistan. > > Muslims who stayed in India have traditionally supported Congress > since independence "to prove their loyalty". > > Empowered > > Yogendra Yadav, the noted political commentator, feels that Muslim > parties have "come of age". > > "Fifty years into independence, the trauma of partition prevented > Muslim political parties from conceiving a politics of their own," he > says. > > Muslims in Delhi > Many Muslims have questioned the proliferation of Islamic parties > > "But they are slowly getting out of it. In the last decade or so they > have been speaking for themselves - a very positive sign for Muslims > as well as for democracy," Mr Yadav says. > > The figures seem to support his claims - the proliferation of new > political parties means that no one party is expected to get more than > 60% of Muslim votes. > > But Congress believes Muslims cannot be empowered by a Muslim party alone. > > "Muslim parties have traditionally voted for Congress and will > continue to do so, as they know only a majority party like Congress > with secular credentials can empower them," says Imran-ur Rehman > Kidwai, the chief of the party's Minority Cell. > > He also brushed aside the fact that there is any kind of "insecurity > among Muslim youth", calling it a "non-issue". > > But whatever Mr Kidwai says, in at least one state a Muslim party is > creating serious trouble for Congress. > > The Islamic vote in Assam makes up more more than 20% of Muslim votes > and appears to be making forays into Congress bastions. > > The Hindu nationalist BJP - which Muslims tend to vote against - could > win in the state. > > But that has not stopped the AUDF from running anti-Congress campaigns. > > > "Enough of that - whenever Muslims vote against Congress, it is said > to be in favour of the BJP. Can't we ever raise our voice because of > right-wing parties like the BJP?" the AUDF's election analyst, > Buranuddin Qasmi, asks. > > The real Achilles' heel for Congress is the Sachar Report - a prime > ministerial committee that recommended several measures to improve the > living conditions of Muslims in India. > > Initiated by Congress and tabled in parliament in 2006, the report has > become central to the Indian Muslim community and is often quoted to > voice their grievances. > > During election campaigns, Muslim parties have pointed out that none > of the recommendations of this report have been implemented. > > "Congress and Manmohan Singh may have done a commendable job in > commissioning a report of this magnitude. But the minority affairs > ministry has done literally nothing to implement it, with the > exception of giving scholarships to Muslim students," Dr Abu Saleh > Shariff, member-secretary of the Sachar Committee Report, told the > BBC. > > However, Imran Kidwai says that 19 out of 22 of its recommendations > have been implemented. > > "Muslims will vote for Congress," he confidently predicted. > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with subscribe in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> -- http://venukm.blogspot.com/ From kmvenuannur at gmail.com Tue Apr 21 09:31:04 2009 From: kmvenuannur at gmail.com (Venugopalan K M) Date: Tue, 21 Apr 2009 09:31:04 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Myth Called the 'Indian Muslim' In-Reply-To: <1f9180970904202100m2a329dc8i8718417566b97e2a@mail.gmail.com> References: <65be9bf40904201628o3573046ai285b59272f3910c8@mail.gmail.com> <1f9180970904202100m2a329dc8i8718417566b97e2a@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <1f9180970904202101y2fccb1b0u3d1a40ebd9786974@mail.gmail.com> On 4/21/09, Venugopalan K M wrote: > Dear Taha, > > Whether we accept or not this kind of whimsical generalizations  about > Indian Muslim, I am afraid one cannot afford to miss the underlying > subtext of "Islam as the Other" not only in India,but all over the > globe. No doubt we can challenge it; but one will rather do so with > concerns about its implication in the  social lives of Muslims > everywhere. For example, even a Muslim name could become problematic > in a real life situation in many parts of the world notwithstanding > the fact that you may be an agnostic or Marxist! > We are aware of the fact that even a person like Eshan Jaffry(pardon > the spelling) with the status of a prominent  ex parliamentarian > Congress leader was not able to escape the horrendous consequences of > that. > So, Muslims are doubly burdened with defending the identity on the one > hand, as well as challenging it on the other. The case of Taslima is > an extreme one in point. Eventhough she is not a Muslim by conviction, > she represents the plight of all female believers in a Muslim > theocracy where a particular definition of Islam became the basis for > conceding or denying citizenship. > Fatima Mernissi, in her Women and Islam has defined Muslim in a > narrower (or broader?)sense that would include all the subjects of a > theocratic state and its personal laws, and independent of one's > personal convictions vis a vis the faith. > In short, I would say that there indeed exists a concept of 'Muslim > voter' in India,  notwithstanding that individual voters might > challenge this blanket concept in a particular context and would > endorse the same in another context. In my view, there is nothing > reprehensible in acting in this manner, when we take into > considerations the imperatives of grave challenges to the very > existence of divergent faiths in India which is actually rooted in the > ideology of Brahmanical Hindutwa. This is the most deplorable form of > cultural nationalism, which likes to ground the very idea of > citizenship in it. Even the Indian constitution is anathema to this > band of nationalists,who fortunately did not enjoy the mandate of more > than a fifth of all Indian voters even in their best days! In the 2004 > elections they seemed dangerously close to a second tenure of office > thanks to the oprtunist realpolitiking by the regional parties and to > the support of the upper caste dominated media. But the common people > proved that they had not only the eyes and ears to see through all, > but they also had the wisdom to give a fitting response > Regards, > Venu. > > On Tue, Apr 21, 2009 at 4:58 AM, Taha Mehmood > <2tahamehmood at googlemail.com> wrote: >> >> Dear All, >> >> Pasted below is one more instance of irresponsible reportage by the >> BBC. The issue at hand is a mythical hobby horse of all political >> parties called the  'Indian Muslim'. >> >>  This report is laced with gross generalizations like, 'Arrests and >> alleged extrajudicial killings of Muslim youths have angered many in >> the Islamic community.' >> >> 'Islamic Community' Really? How does Mr. Bagchi knows this about >> 'Islamic Community', we don't know? In the same regard, no one will >> question our informed journo, what the HELL is this 'Islamic >> community' or where is it, if it exists? >> >> Even the headline of the story is meant to suggest that in fact there >> exists something called the 'India's all-important Muslim vote' :) >> >> Regards >> >> Taha >> >> >> http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/south_asia/7998819.stm >> >> India's all-important Muslim vote >> >> By Suvojit Bagchi >> BBC News, Delhi >> >> >> The Indian government's "war against terror" may cost the Congress >> party dearly in the election. >> >> Arrests and alleged extrajudicial killings of Muslim youths have >> angered many in the Islamic community. >> >> "People in power have branded us as terrorists and used us as a vote >> bank, this cannot go on," said the all-powerful cleric of Delhi's Jama >> Masjid mosque, Syed Ahmed Bukhari, in a recent press conference. >> >> Speaking about the deaths of two Muslim students allegedly at the >> hands of police in South Delhi's Muslim area last October, Mr Bukhari >> said the Muslim community "wants justice". >> >> 'Safety and security' >> >> This sense of injustice has resulted in the formation of new Muslim >> political parties over recent months. >> >> >> >> These parties believe in Indian parliamentary democracy and say they >> are working to "strengthen" it. >> >> The party manifestos unanimously emphasise the "safety and security" >> of all communities, especially Muslims. >> >> "The security of Muslims is one big issue, as after every blast in >> India a series of arrests of Muslim youths takes place," said a >> spokesperson for the influential All India Muslim Personal Law Board. >> >> Muslim men were "systematically killed" in routine police encounters, >> he alleged. >> >> Muslims comprise more than 13% of India's population and many are >> aggrieved that proportionately they only have about half that much >> representation in parliament. >> >> More than two dozen Muslim political parties, big and small, are >> contesting these elections - almost double the figure of the last >> election. >> >> The prominent players are the Assam United Democratic Front (AUDF), >> Ulema Council and Indian Peace Party in Uttar Pradesh, Tamil Muslim >> Munettra Khazhagam in Tamil Nadu, the People's Democratic Council in >> West Bengal and veterans like the Muslim League and Indian National >> League in Kerala, the Democratic Secular Party in Bihar and the >> Majlis-e Ittihad al-Muslimin in Andhra Pradesh. >> >> >> >> Interestingly, even the staunchest supporters of these parties do not >> believe they are going to win. >> >> "Our primary aim is to erode the vote of the Congress party and then >> to win a few seats," says Buranuddin Qasmi, an election analyst of the >> AUDF. >> >> Meanwhile, many Muslims are questioning the logic behind the hasty >> launch of such parties. >> >> They argue that a party like the Ulema Council will not even be able >> to emerge as a minor player because it lacks proper planning and >> goals. >> >> Statistics show the parties that manage to win the votes of low caste >> people along with the Muslim vote bank have a strong chance of >> winning. >> >> Since India's independence from British rule, Congress has been >> getting a sizeable chunk of Muslim votes at national level, largely >> because Muslims felt they had to prove their loyalty to India in early >> post-partition days, experts say. >> >> In India, the Muslim League and its president, Mohammad Ali Jinnah, >> are held responsible for dividing India and creating Pakistan. >> >> Muslims who stayed in India have traditionally supported Congress >> since independence "to prove their loyalty". >> >> Empowered >> >> Yogendra Yadav, the noted political commentator, feels that Muslim >> parties have "come of age". >> >> "Fifty years into independence, the trauma of partition prevented >> Muslim political parties from conceiving a politics of their own," he >> says. >> >> Muslims in Delhi >> Many Muslims have questioned the proliferation of Islamic parties >> >> "But they are slowly getting out of it. In the last decade or so they >> have been speaking for themselves - a very positive sign for Muslims >> as well as for democracy," Mr Yadav says. >> >> The figures seem to support his claims - the proliferation of new >> political parties means that no one party is expected to get more than >> 60% of Muslim votes. >> >> But Congress believes Muslims cannot be empowered by a Muslim party >> alone. >> >> "Muslim parties have traditionally voted for Congress and will >> continue to do so, as they know only a majority party like Congress >> with secular credentials can empower them," says Imran-ur Rehman >> Kidwai, the chief of the party's Minority Cell. >> >> He also brushed aside the fact that there is any kind of "insecurity >> among Muslim youth", calling it a "non-issue". >> >> But whatever Mr Kidwai says, in at least one state a Muslim party is >> creating serious trouble for Congress. >> >> The Islamic vote in Assam makes up more more than 20% of Muslim votes >> and appears to be making forays into Congress bastions. >> >> The Hindu nationalist BJP - which Muslims tend to vote against - could >> win in the state. >> >> But that has not stopped the AUDF from running anti-Congress campaigns. >> >> >> "Enough of that - whenever Muslims vote against Congress, it is said >> to be in favour of the BJP. Can't we ever raise our voice because of >> right-wing parties like the BJP?" the AUDF's election analyst, >> Buranuddin Qasmi, asks. >> >> The real Achilles' heel for Congress is the Sachar Report - a prime >> ministerial committee that recommended several measures to improve the >> living conditions of Muslims in India. >> >> Initiated by Congress and tabled in parliament in 2006, the report has >> become central to the Indian Muslim community and is often quoted to >> voice their grievances. >> >> During election campaigns, Muslim parties have pointed out that none >> of the recommendations of this report have been implemented. >> >> "Congress and Manmohan Singh may have done a commendable job in >> commissioning a report of this magnitude. But the minority affairs >> ministry has done literally nothing to implement it, with the >> exception of giving scholarships to Muslim students," Dr Abu Saleh >> Shariff, member-secretary of the Sachar Committee Report, told the >> BBC. >> >> However, Imran Kidwai says that 19 out of 22 of its recommendations >> have been implemented. >> >> "Muslims will vote for Congress," he confidently predicted. >> _________________________________________ >> reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. >> Critiques & Collaborations >> To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with >> subscribe in the subject header. >> To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list >> List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> > > > > > -- > http://venukm.blogspot.com/ > -- http://venukm.blogspot.com/ From smitamitr at gmail.com Tue Apr 21 11:12:58 2009 From: smitamitr at gmail.com (smita mitra) Date: Tue, 21 Apr 2009 11:12:58 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Help for locating old Bangla cine magazines. Message-ID: Dear All, I am working on popular Bangla cinema of 1950-70s. Can anyone help me with locating old issues of cine magazines such as Prasad, Ultoroth. These were being published from 1959 and mid sixtees. I managed to track the original owners of Prasad , but the family has no archive. Please help someone. Regards, Smita. From pawan.durani at gmail.com Tue Apr 21 12:11:34 2009 From: pawan.durani at gmail.com (Pawan Durani) Date: Tue, 21 Apr 2009 12:11:34 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] The Communist Conspiracy ! In-Reply-To: <98f331e00904190208j343c3f7eif12c3f6ee99af9e4@mail.gmail.com> References: <98f331e00904190208j343c3f7eif12c3f6ee99af9e4@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <6b79f1a70904202341o7c6d7b9q59ba41d6d6e31308@mail.gmail.com> Dear Mr Ray, Few of my questions remain unanswered and few more have developed Are the Communists on payroll of Russia or China ? Do they work on the instructions from these two super powers ? Since you have expressed helpless of an alleged terrorist "Madani" supporting the left in Kerela , would you have a similar arrangement with Sri Ram Sene in future in Kerela ? If not what holds the left back ? Why would we accept that left is sincere ? They dont stick to an ideology . Why did Communist Party split happen in the first place ? Are the communist still ambitious about dividing India into smaller sovereign states ? Pawan On Sun, Apr 19, 2009 at 2:38 PM, prakash ray wrote: > Dear Rakesh Ji, > > Let me first congrutulate you for your cent percent political > correctedness. > I thank you also for the questions you have asked. I try to reply them. > > 1) The V.P.Singh govt was formed after the congress govt led by Mr Rajiv > Gandhi was voted out. The popular mandate was to form a non-Congress > government. As you know the movement against the Rajiv Gandhi govt was led > by Mr V P Singh, a former congressman and senior cabinet minister in the > previous govt. So, he was the only choice for the top job. The Left Front > ensured that BJP should not be part of the govt. The Front also ensured > that > the govt initiate pro-people policies. If you have even little awareness, > the recomendations of the B P Mandal Commission for reservations of OBCs in > jobs was implemented by the V P Singh govt. You must know that ABVP and > NSUI > supporters violently protested this across the country. The student who was > the first to try to self-immolate was visited by Mr Advani in AIIMS and was > elected as the president of DUSU unopposed as an NSUI candidate. Mr > Advani's > bloody Rath-yatra was stopped in Bihar and he was arrested. soonafter, the > BJP decided to withdraw support but the Left stood strongly with V P Singh. > The Congress broke the Janata Dal and made Mr Chandrashekhar the PM. > However, soon they withdraw support and it collapsed. The Left continue to > ally with the secularists like Laloo and Mulayam to contain the communal > politics of the RSS-BJP. You must know that period was the most dangerous > period for the secular India. Moreover, during this period, an ultra-Left > student organisation AISA was formed as the student wing of > CPI-ML-Liberation which raised slogans of 'No Mandal, No Kamandal, Inqalab > Zindabad' and swept the students union polls in many campuse in the > northern > part of the country. For its political bankruptcy and opportunism, it soon > lost its glory and the ABVP replaced it in these campuses. > > I hope you understand the context of the support to the VP Singh govt. The > importance of that govt lies in the fact that it broke the tradition of > Congress's political hegemony and new political formations/parties earned > importance. If you still want to call it a political opportunism, I have > nothing more to say on this. > > The way you have ridiculed the Mandal Report and blamed the Left for the > rise of the Kamandal politics, you need to introspect. Was it wrong to > implement the Report? Would it have been correct to let the Congress rule > the country? What should you have done if you were a member of Lok Sabha at > that time? > > 2) The Left is working towards the formation of a non-Congress and non-BJP > front. The Left had supported the UPA govt led by the Congress respecting > the mandate for a secular govt. But, the Congress betrayed the commitment > articulated in the CMP. Despite having differences and apprehensions, the > Left is trying to build an alliance on the broader agenda of secularism, > democracy, pro-people policies, anti-imperialism. You must note the fact > that many parties are joining hands with the Left leaving the NDA and the > UPA. Moreover, the Congress, Laloo and Mulayam are praising the Left for > its > positive role. Also, CPI-ML-Liberation has joined forces this time with the > Left in Bihar. Mind you, in politics or in life, one has to make alliances. > Life cannot be run only by irresponsible cynicism or anarchism. > > 3) The BJD realised its blunders and left the BJP. Let me tell you little > more that the Left and the BJD have joined hands with the NCP in Orissa to > defeate the Congress and the BJP. You should not be surprised if you learn > that JD-U also joins the Left soon after the general elections. > > 4) As far as the Bengal govt is concerned, there is a great need to > generate > jobs. This is also true for the entire country. I share the concern > regarding the mode of development adopted by various parties including the > Left. The Left cannot and must not implement policies/programmes which can > go against the people. The events in Nandigram and Singur were disturbing > and the Left govt must learn a lesson. However, the situation was made > worse > by the TMC-Maoists combine aided by the Congress and the BJP. The need of > the hour is to formulate a comprehensive developmental policy keeping all > aspects in consideration. b > > 5) The Left does not have any alliance with Madani in Kerala. However, even > in you opinion, he is 'allegedly' a terrorist. If a group extend supports > to > the Left, what it can do. As far as the central agencies are concerned, > they > are themselves communal in character and also they have only registered > failures as far as terrorism is concerned. The Big Boss of these agencies, > Nation Security Advisor, takes more interest in deals and lobbying. > > Taslima Nasreen was never ousted. The govt merely advised her against > staying in Kolkata at that time since some groups had objected. It was a > momentary step. You must know that after that episode, Ms Nasreen has > visited Kolkata several times. > > 6) Com Pinarayi Vijayan has never been accused of corruption nor indicted > in > any report. The enquiry is still on. Till it is over, stop yourself from > acting as a judge. > > PKR > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > subscribe in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> > From pawan.durani at gmail.com Tue Apr 21 12:14:46 2009 From: pawan.durani at gmail.com (Pawan Durani) Date: Tue, 21 Apr 2009 12:14:46 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Pandit Ajit Narain Haksar by BN Sharga Message-ID: <6b79f1a70904202344n62c69dcem27327425af37c55@mail.gmail.com> Hello members , Thought that some of you may find this brief biography of first Indian Chairman of ITC interesting . Pawan First Indian Chairman of I.T.C. Pandit Ajit Narain Haksar By. Dr. B.N. Sharga To check the fast growing monopoly of the American tobacco companies in the world market especially of James Buchanan Duke thirteen British tobacco and cigarette companies including the famous W.D. & H.O. Wills of Bristol merged together in 1901 to form the Imperial Tobacco Company to carry out their business in the global market under this new brand name. Mr. William Henry Wills of the leading W.D. & H.O. Wills group became the first Chairman of the Imperial Tobacco Company on 24th August 1910. The company was incorporated as a Private Limited Company under a new name Imperial Tobacco Company of India Ltd. for manufacturing cigarettes and smoking tobacco in the country. Pt. Ajit Narain Haksar who joined this company in 1948 as a trainee in marketing became its Chairman in 1969. He was first Indian to occupy that coveted post. Pt. Ajit Narain Haksar’s ancestor Pt. Mahesh Haksar was originally a resident of Srinagar in Kashmir, where he used to live in Tankipora locality near Kani Kadal around 1680. He was a highly religious person with sharp intellect. He had a son Manohar Haksar who inturn had a son Roop Ram Haksar and a grandson Nand Ram Haksar. As the Afghan rule in Kashmir from 1752 upto 1819 was not very conducive for the Kashmiri Pandits because they were subjected to all kinds of brutalities and indignities by various Afghan governors during this black chapter of Kashmir history so many Kashmiri Pandit families migrated from Kashmir to the plains of North India to avoid their religious persecution during this period. Pt. Sita Ram Haksar, who was the son of Pt. Nand Ram Haksar came to the imperial capital Delhi in 1804 to seek employment in the Mughal court, whereas his brother Pt. Sahib Ram Haksar stayed back in Kashmir to look after their ancestral property there. When Pt. Sita Ram Haksar came to Delhi he found the Mughal emperor Shah Alam II (1759-1806) almost a puppet in the hands of the British as the British forces under the command of Lord Lake took over Delhi under their control after defeating Marathas in the Anglo – Maratha War leaving little scope for the Mughal emperor to exercise his powers. Finding the employment opportunities quite dim in those ancertain conditions in a war zone. Pt. Sita Ram Haksar after living in Bazaar Sita Ram for a couple of years then moved to the Gwalior state in Central India from Delhi to try his luck there. After some time he became a teacher in some school there. He had a son Jagat Narain Haksar and a grandson Pt. Bishan Narain Haksar. Pt. Bishan Narain Haksar was born in 1805 at Delhi. He became well versed in Urdu and Persian language at a very young age and started writing Urdu poetry. His poetic compositions were published in ‘Bahar-e-Gulshan-e-Kashmir’. He was an ardent admirer of Lord Krishna. He had four sons Dharam Narain, Prem Narain, Swaroop Narain and Shyam Narain alias Kanhaiyya Lal. Pt. Swaroop Narain Haksar who was born in 1828 at Delhi and had his education in Delhi College was the first member of this Haksar clan to take up a job in the Indore state around 1846 as a teacher in a school on the recommendation of his British Principal of Delhi College. He was in the good books of Mr. R.H. Hamilton, who was British Political Agent for the Indorestate during the rule of Maharaja Yashwant Rao Holkar. Pt. Swaroop Narain Haksar became a ‘Mir Munshi’ of the British Political Agent in 1850 and then Dewan of Bundelkhand in 1856. Pt. Dharam Narain Haksar who was born in 1824 left Delhi in 1849 after completing his education at Delhi College and became the editor of *Malwa Akhbar*. In 1856 the British appointed him as the *Mir Munshi* of the Indorestate. His another brother Pt. Prem Narain Haksar became Dewan of Tehri state in Central India around 1854. So when Mutiny broke out at Delhi in 1857 Pt. Bishan Narain Haksar was living in Bazaar Sita Ram with his youngest son Pt. Shyam Narain Haksar and his cousin Pt. Ram Krishna Haksar who was the grandson of Pt. Sahib Ram Haksar and their families. As there was great chaos, confusion, mayhem and bloodshed every where so Pt. Bishan Narain Haksar decided to go to Alwar state where he had his relatives for the security of his family members. He asked his cousin Pt. Ram Krishna Haksar to bring the curfew pass so that they could move out from Delhi. When Pt. Ram Krishna Haksar came out from his house with a relative to arrange the curfew pass, he was shot dead by a British sergeant for violating the martial law. After performing his last rites Pt. Bishan Narain Haksar with his family members moved to Alwar state from Delhi to live in peace there. Pt. Ram Krishna Haksar had a son Pt. Prem Krishna Haksar and two grandsons Pt. Maharaj Krishna Haksar and Pt. Brij Krishna Haksar. Pt. Maharaj KrishnaHaksar had two sons Suraj Krishna and Bal Krishna besides a daughter Roopwanti who was married with Pt. Manharan Nath Sharga of Kashmiri Mohalla, Lucknow. Pt. Brij Krishna Haksar had no son. He adopted the son of Pt. Ganesh Sahai Gurtu of Jodhpur who by virtue of this adoption became Pt. Sri Krishna Haksar Pt. Sri Krishna Haksar was married with Brij Kumari the daughter of Pt. Nand Lal Hukku of Kashmiri Mohalla, Lucknow. He had two sons Tej Krishna Haksar who was employed in Land Development Bank and is married with Geeta the daughter of Pt. Karhaiyya Lal Raina of Rani Katra, Lucknowand Raj Krishna Haksar who is working in a pharmaceutical company and is married with Rekha the daughter of Pt. P.N. Dhar of Delhi. Both of them live at Luck now. When Queen Victoria of England took over the administration of India on 1stNovember 1858from the East India Company and conditions became perfectly normal at Delhi Pt. Bishan Narain Haksar came back from Alwar to Delhi and found his ancestral *haveli* badly damaged and completely ransacked by the British soldiers totally unfit for living. The then commissioner of Delhi C.B. Saunders helped him in getting a big compensation from the British government. Pt. Bishan Narain Haksar from that money purchased a big plot of land in Gali Prem Narain and built two *havelis* Rang Mahal and ‘Sheesh Mahal’ besides a temple of Lord Krishna at Mathura in 1870. He died in 1890 at the age of 85 years at Gwalior. Pt. Dharam Narain Haksar after his retirement from the British service in 1879 shifted his base from Indore to Gwalior. Maharaja Jajaji Rao Scindia made him a Hony. magistrate and tutor of prince Madhav Rao Scindia. The British conferred the civilian title of Rai Bahadur upon him for his services in the Gwalior state. He died in 1892 at Gwalior at the age of 68 years. He was married with Sushil Kumari the daughter of Pt. Pran Nath Raina of Kashmiri Mohalla, Lucknow who later on migrated to Gwalior and became Principal of Victoria College there. Pt. Dharam Narain Haksar had a son Har Narain Haksar who was born in 1853 at Indore. He started his career as a translator in the office of Indore Residency. He used to go to Gwalior quite often. He died suddenly due to heart failure at the residence of his elder son Col. Sir Kailas Narain Haksar in 1902 at the young age of 52 years. Pt. Har Narain Haksar had two sons Kailas Narain and Iqbal Narain besides five daughter Swaroop Kumari married to Pt. Swaroop Narain Razdon the son of Pt. Bishan Narain Razdan of Amritsar, Ram Pyari married to Pt. Roop Krishna Kitchlu the son of Pt. Praduman Krishna Kitchlu of Lahore, Bilaspati married to Pt. Pratap Narain Shivpuri the son of Pt. Brij Narain Shivpuri of Alwar, Maharaj Kumari married to Pt. Prem Nath Agha of Allahabad and Shivrajpati married to Pt. Brij Krishna Kitchlu the son of Pt. Praduman Krishna Kitchlu of Lahore. Col. Sir Kailas Narain Haksar was born in 1878 at his ancestral *haveli* in Gali Prem Narain, Bazaar Sita Ram, Delhi. He had his initial education in Urdu and Persian at Delhi. He then did his F.A. in 1893 and B.A. in 1895 from Victoria College, Gwalior. He got married in 1895 with Swaroop Kishori who was the daughter of Pt. Jialal Hukku and granddaughter of Pt. Moti Lal Hukku of Bijnor. Col. Sir Kailas Narain Haksar did his LL.B. from the University of Allahabadin 1897. He then served as a lecturer in Victoria College, Gwalior from 1899 upto 1902. He then became Private Secretary of Maharaja Madhav Rao Scindia in 1903. He was then honoured with the rank of Colonel of the State army. In 1913 he became a member of the governing council of the Gwalior state and functioned on that post till 1937. He also worked as the director of the Princes Council formed by the rulers of different states between 1929 and 1931. He took part in all the three Round Table Conferences held between 1930 and 1933 at London. For his valuable contributions in different fields he was knighted by King George V of England in 1932. Col. Sir Kailas Narain Haksar then became the Prime Minister of the Bikanerstate in 1938. He went to Kashmir in 1940 where Maharaja Hari Singh appointed him as tutor and guardian of prince Karan Singh. In 1940 the University of Allahabadconferred upon him the honourary degree of LL.D. He became the Prime Minister of Jammu and Kashmir state in 1943 and worked on that post till 1944. He then devoted his life in social work. He was a great orator and had an equal command on English and Persian. He died after a long illness in 1953 at the residence of his son Pt. Prakash Narain Haksar in Calcutta. Pt. Iqbal Narain Haksar was born around 1890 at Gwalior. He had his education in the famous Victoria College and then joined the Gwalior State Scindia Railways as an Administrative Officer around 1919. Maharaja Jayaji Rao Scindia, who ruled over the Gwalior state from 1835 upto 1886 sent Rs. 75/- lacs to the British in 1772 for the construction of the Agra – Gwalior portion of the Great Indian Peninsular Railway and a similar amount in 1873 for the construction of Indore-Neemuch section of the Rajputana – Malwa railway line. Maharaja Jayaji Rao Scindia had a great fascination for the railways and developed an extensive narrow two feet gauge network of railways within his state known as Gwalior State Scindia Railways. Not only that he got a silver toy train designed on the banquet table in his palace to serve constly imported drinks and cigars to his guests. This antique train is still in the working order in the Gwalior Palace. Maharaja Jayaji Rao Scindia died on 20th June 1886 and was succeeded by his son Madhav Rao Scindia from his fourth wife Sakhyabai. Maharaja Madhav Rao Scindia appointed Pt. Iqbal Narain Haksar as the administrative officer of the Gwalior State Scindia Railways to look after its proper management and maintenance, which he did with great ability and farsightedness. This Haksar family earned a great respect and honour in the Gwalior state. Pt. Iqbal Narain Haksar was married with Shammo (Tej Rani) around 1992, who was the daughter of Pt. Jagat Narain Mulla a leading criminal lawyer of Lucknow. Pt. Iqbal Narain Haksar died on 9th June 1953 at Gwalior and was survived by three sons Anand Narain, Raj Narain and Ajit Narain besides two daughters Sheila married with Justice Ram Narain Gurtu the son of Rai Brij Narain Gurtu of Kanpur and Tara married with Pt. Suraj Narain Razdan the son of Pt. Chand Narain Razdon of Ujjain. Pandit Ajit Narain Haksar was born in 1924 at Lashkar, Gwalior. He passed his Senior Cambridge examination from Doon School, Dehradun in 1940. He then did his Intermediate from Victoria College, Gwalior in 1942. He then went to Allahabad and did his B.A. in Humanities from the University of Allahabad in 1944. He then went to America and did his M.B.A. from Harvard Business School in 1948. Pandit Ajit Narain Haksar after coming back to India started his career as a trainee in marketing with the Imperial Tobacco Company of India Ltd. in September 1948. He was a man with a vision and extraordinary managerial skills. He soon started showing his potential as a marketing expert by evolving new strategies in the field of marketing based on his studies and expertise in that time. He gave new fillip and direction to this wing of the company. He was made the Marketing Director of the company around 1954 to implement his policies and programmes more vigourously with the result that on 27th October 1954 the company was converted into a Public Limited Company and apart from manufacturing cigarettes and smoking tobacco also started Lithographic printing business. Pt. Ajit Narain Haksar then became the Deputy Chairman of the company around 1960. He then diversified the business of the company by opening up new avenues and adopting new business priorities. He thus became the first Indian Chairman of a British Company in September 1969. Under his Chairmanship the name of the company was changed from the Imperial Tobacco Company of India Ltd. to the India Tobacco Company Ltd. in May 1970. It was due to his untiring efforts and meticulous planning that the company entered into the hotel business in 1972 and built a chain of hotels in the country. In 1973 under his stewardship the company received the approval of the government for setting up three processing plants. On 1st April, 1974 the name of the company was again changed to Imperial Tobacco Company Ltd. In 1975 I.T.C. Ltd. purchased the net assets in India of India Leaf Tobacco Development Co. Ltd. (U.K.). In 1979 the name of the company’s chain of hotels was changed from Welcome Hotels to Welcom Group and the company entered into a marketing service and reservation agreement with the Sheraton International. Pt. Ajit Narain Haksar retired from active service on 11th January 1983 after an outstanding track record of 14 years as the Chairman of the company. Pt. Ajit Narain Haksar was then made the Chairman emiritus of the company to utilize his ability and farsight for the benefit of the company. A new company under the name Gujrat Hotels was incorporated under a joint venture agreement signed between the company and Gujrat Industrial Corporation to build hotels in Gujrat. In 1986 the company signed a joint venture agreement with Madhya Pradesh Industrial Development Corporation for setting up four hotels in Madhya Pradesh. The company introduced the new brand of Wills Flake Premium Filter and Scissors Filter in 1987 and acquired Neidoue Hotel of Srinagar, Kashmir on lease. In the same year the company added 30 rooms in Mughal Sheraton at Agra. Pt. Ajit Narain Haksar was the President of Bengal Chamber of Commerce and Industries for two years. He was a Member Board of Directors of Reserve Bank of India, Industrial Development, Bank of India, Indian Airlines and Heavy Engineering Corporation, Ranchi. He was Chairman Board of Governors of Indian Institute of Technology, Kharagpur and Indian School of Mines, Dhanbad. He was Member Board of Governors of Indian Institute of Management, Calcutta and Hyderabad Staff College. He was Member National Committee on Tourism and Government Committees on Public Sector. The Hony. Membership of the Indian Institute of Industrial Engineering was conferred upon Pt. Ajit Narain Haksar in 1981. In the same year he got Man of the Year Award from NIF. Modi Enterprises. He was given NIQA outstanding Industrialist Award in 1982 and Business India’s First Businessman of the Year Award. He was elected in World’s Hall of Fame in 1982 and 83. He became an Honorary Fellow of All India Management Association 1987-88. He got Udyog Ratna Award in 1988 and Life Time Achievements Award in 2005. Pt. Ajit Narain Haksar during his school and college days was a voracious reader and a good sportsman. He was a god hockey and football player. He had a great passion for cricket. He also took a keen interest in theatre during his student life. Later on in service he switched over to playing lawn tennis. He then started playing golf to keep him fit and mentally alert. Pt. Ajit Narain Haksar was a thorough gentleman with pleasing manners. He always recognized the dignity of labour and encouraged promising young men to achieve excellence in their life. He was a man with a mission. The qualities of his head and heart made him dear to everyone. He used to command a great respect among his colleagues as well as subordinates. Work was the motto of his life. He died on 20th May 2005 at Delhi at the age of 80 years due to brain haemorrhage. Pt. Ajit Narain Haksar was married with Madhuri the daughter of Pt. Trijugi Narain Sapru and granddaughter of Dr. Sir Tej Bahadur Sapru of Allahabad. He had a son Anant Narain Haksar and a daughter Neena married to Pt. Kapil Narain Channa the son of Pt. Uttam Narain Channa. Pt. Anant Narain Haksar was born on 31st August 1951 at Gwalior. He had his schooling at Doon School, Dehradun. He then did his graduation from the University of Calcutta in 1971. He then went to London and did his graduation in Economics from the London School of Economics in 1975. He then did his Bar-at-Law from Lincoln’s Inn. in 1977. He then came back to Indiato start his legal practice as an advocate in the Delhi High Court. He became a senior advocate of the Delhi High Court in March 1992. He is an ardent lover of music and has a keen interest in cricket and golf. His favourite passtime is book reading. He married Vandana the daughter of Pt. Pratap Krishna Kaul former Cabinet Secretary, Government of India and granddaughter of Pt. Kunwar Krishna Kaul of Kashmiri Mohalla, Lucknow. He has two daughters Avantika born in July 1980 and Anusha born in November 1981. Pt. Ajit Narain Haksar was responsible for steering the change at ITC towards a company that may look more Indian than British. He took the company to new heights by introducing a new work culture in it. He was one of the most dynamic and high profile Indian manager in independent India. He very successfully led the ITC into newer businesses beyond cigarettes. He will always be remembered as a great visionary and a pioneer in business management. In the words of William Hazlitt. If you think you can win, Faith is necessary to victory. *( Dr. B.N. 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Groups Terms of Use | Unsubscribe __,_._,___ From kauladityaraj at gmail.com Tue Apr 21 13:23:55 2009 From: kauladityaraj at gmail.com (Aditya Raj Kaul) Date: Tue, 21 Apr 2009 13:23:55 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Amann was ragged to death by drunk seniors In-Reply-To: <6353c690904210049q3379edb2pa7d0094f2e2e6568@mail.gmail.com> References: <6353c690904210049q3379edb2pa7d0094f2e2e6568@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <6353c690904210053y35aa59a6v6692278293c6727d@mail.gmail.com> Amann was ragged to death by drunk seniors *Bhadra Sinha, Hindustan Times Link - http://www.hindustantimes.com/StoryPage/StoryPage.aspx?sectionName=HomePage&id=46257a57-5fef-4c2c-a998-0dd228242f14&Headline=Amann+was+ragged+to+death+by+drunk+seniors * A Supreme Court panel, constituted to probe into the ragging and subsequent death of medical student, Amann Kachroo, has blamed rampant use of alcohol in institutions for a spurt in ragging incidents. The panel comprising Dr. A K Agarwal, Dean, Maulana Azad Medical College, and Dr. Rajendra Prasad, Principal, Ramjas College has also indicted the administrative staff of Rajendra Prasad Government Medical College (RPGMC) for Kachroo’s death. The first year student succumbed to injuries inflicted on him by his seniors during a ragging session in the hostel on March 8. The panel has further sought immediate inquiry against suspended college principal Dr Suresh Sankhyan for failing to implement Supreme Court directions against ragging. Keeping the “seemingly violent history” of RPGMC in mind, it has urged the court to post police on the campus until the college administration manages to enforce discipline. According to the panel the college’s anti-ragging committee never met and its staff were not even sensitised to the menace of ragging. “The college administration could not properly bring about a stable and disciplined atmosphere in the college,” the report stated. While reading out contents of the “shocking report” before a special bench headed by Justice Arijit Pasayat, additional solicitor general (ASG) Gopal Subramanium said there was an immediate need to introduce de-addiction measures at educational institutions. Subramanium, who is assisting the court in the matter, suggested constitution of a special committee having eminent psychiatrists or psychologists, a documentary-maker and an educationalist, to recommend urgent and mandatory mental health measures to be implemented at all the education institutions including schools. The ASG said the committee should also immediately examine the problem of alcoholism on RPGMC campus and suggest immediate de-addiction measures. The court was also informed about the panel’s finding against the role of Medical Council of India (MCI). The panel has raised doubts over MCI’s sincerity in curbing ragging in medical colleges and sought a probe into it. From subuhimjiwani at yahoo.com Tue Apr 21 13:40:13 2009 From: subuhimjiwani at yahoo.com (Subuhi Jiwani) Date: Tue, 21 Apr 2009 01:10:13 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Reader-list] Blog to act against Mumbai Mirror's coverage of TiSS student's rape, etc. Message-ID: <749399.1018.qm@web51312.mail.re2.yahoo.com> Several women's groups protested the Mumbai Mirror's coverage of the TISS student's rape. A police complaint has been filed against the Mirror for publishing her FIR (first information report to the police), which indirectly revealed her identity and invaded her privacy. To see the video of the protest and discuss the issue further, please visit http://loudandproudbombay.wordpress.com/ and add your comments on that blog. And do spread, since the media won't necessarily cover a protest against its own actions. From kshmendra2005 at yahoo.com Tue Apr 21 13:54:07 2009 From: kshmendra2005 at yahoo.com (Kshmendra Kaul) Date: Tue, 21 Apr 2009 01:24:07 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Reader-list] The 'upper caste dominated' Media In-Reply-To: <1f9180970904202100m2a329dc8i8718417566b97e2a@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <74753.9861.qm@web57207.mail.re3.yahoo.com> Dear Venugopalan   You have written that in 2004 the 'band of nationalists' who subscribe to a 'form of cultural nationalism' which is 'rooted in the ideology of Brahmanical Hindutwa' seemed to be dangerously close to a second tenure in office thanks to (amongst others factors) "the support of the upper caste dominated media."   I would like to understand:   - Which is this Media which is 'upper caste dominated' that commands such an influence?   - How does one reach the conclusion that it is 'upper caste dominated'?   Kshmendra      --- On Tue, 4/21/09, Venugopalan K M wrote: "In short, I would say that there indeed exists a concept of 'Muslim voter' in India,  notwithstanding that individual voters might challenge this blanket concept in a particular context and would endorse the same in another context. In my view, there is nothing reprehensible in acting in this manner, when we take into considerations the imperatives of grave challenges to the very existence of divergent faiths in India which is actually rooted in the ideology of Brahmanical Hindutwa. This is the most deplorable form of cultural nationalism, which likes to ground the very idea of citizenship in it. Even the Indian constitution is anathema to this band of nationalists,who fortunately did not enjoy the mandate of more than a fifth of all Indian voters even in their best days! In the 2004 elections they seemed dangerously close to a second tenure of office thanks to the oprtunist realpolitiking by the regional parties and to the support of the upper caste dominated media." From kshmendra2005 at yahoo.com Tue Apr 21 14:19:50 2009 From: kshmendra2005 at yahoo.com (Kshmendra Kaul) Date: Tue, 21 Apr 2009 01:49:50 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Reader-list] Who dominates / owns the Media in India? Message-ID: <293432.26719.qm@web57202.mail.re3.yahoo.com> That the Media in India (in part or with overwhelming influence) is dominated by the "upper caste" is not the only opinion about it.   Many or most of the List members might have come across two interesting emails that have been circulating for quite some time that claim to tell you the 'real truth' about the Media in India:   1. One such Email details for you the ownership of almost all the prominent Indian Media Houses, seeking to establish that it is owned/controlled by either the Leftists or the Islamists or the Christianists.   2. The second such Email takes you on a journey of not only the ownership of the Media Houses but also how the prominent personalities in Media, Politics and Bueraucracy are directly  or indirectly related/linked to each other and therefore collectively excercise a vice like grip.   What interests me is the references that are made to "upper caste" domination of the Media. It is also sometimes called "Brahmanical domination'.       - Is it the "Brahmanical and/or upper caste domination" of Hindus?   - Is this "Brahmanical and/or upper caste domination" just a metaphor that might equally apply to Hindus, Muslims, Christians etc or might apply to Economic Caste Divisions?   Kshmendra From c.anupam at gmail.com Tue Apr 21 15:02:52 2009 From: c.anupam at gmail.com (anupam chakravartty) Date: Tue, 21 Apr 2009 15:02:52 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Who dominates / owns the Media in India? In-Reply-To: <293432.26719.qm@web57202.mail.re3.yahoo.com> References: <293432.26719.qm@web57202.mail.re3.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <341380d00904210232w2bd8737i81d863f202ceb2a3@mail.gmail.com> It is true that there is a brahminical domination in media in terms of number people from such and such caste. However, diversity of the opinions raised by various media houses it just proves caste or religion doesn't really matter. what matters for most of the media personnel is a good package, some kind of exposure, meeting people, exchanging information and writings. however, if someone can prove that brahminical understanding has something to do with the range of opinions that we encounter everyday through various channels, then it becomes really interesting. but most of it would commit the fallacy of accident. thanks- anupam On 4/21/09, Kshmendra Kaul wrote: > > That the Media in India (in part or with overwhelming influence) is > dominated by the "upper caste" is not the only opinion about it. > > Many or most of the List members might have come across two interesting > emails that have been circulating for quite some time that claim to tell you > the 'real truth' about the Media in India: > > 1. One such Email details for you the ownership of almost all the prominent > Indian Media Houses, seeking to establish that it is owned/controlled by > either the Leftists or the Islamists or the Christianists. > > 2. The second such Email takes you on a journey of not only the ownership > of the Media Houses but also how the prominent personalities in Media, > Politics and Bueraucracy are directly or indirectly related/linked to each > other and therefore collectively excercise a vice like grip. > > What interests me is the references that are made to "upper caste" > domination of the Media. It is also sometimes called "Brahmanical > domination'. > > - Is it the "Brahmanical and/or upper caste domination" of Hindus? > > - Is this "Brahmanical and/or upper caste domination" just a metaphor that > might equally apply to Hindus, Muslims, Christians etc or might apply to > Economic Caste Divisions? > > Kshmendra > > > > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > subscribe in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: From kmvenuannur at gmail.com Tue Apr 21 14:46:31 2009 From: kmvenuannur at gmail.com (Venugopalan K M) Date: Tue, 21 Apr 2009 14:46:31 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] The 'upper caste dominated' Media In-Reply-To: <74753.9861.qm@web57207.mail.re3.yahoo.com> References: <1f9180970904202100m2a329dc8i8718417566b97e2a@mail.gmail.com> <74753.9861.qm@web57207.mail.re3.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <1f9180970904210216k7491c131pa7ee18e807d8f5d3@mail.gmail.com> Dear Kshamendra, I would ask you to tell me which is not dominated by the upper caste ; perhaps that would be much easier,though my understanding in terms of exactly which castes are running the show is limited..I said only that it is dominated by the upper caste hindus both in terms of ownership as well as control.I am very open to be criticized and got corrected. Thanks, Venu On 4/21/09, Kshmendra Kaul wrote: > > Dear Venugopalan > > You have written that in 2004 the 'band of nationalists' who subscribe to a > 'form of cultural nationalism' which is 'rooted in the ideology of > Brahmanical Hindutwa' seemed to be dangerously close to a second tenure in > office thanks to (amongst others factors) "the support of the upper caste > dominated media." > > I would like to understand: > > - Which is this Media which is 'upper caste dominated' that commands such > an influence? > > - How does one reach the conclusion that it is 'upper caste dominated'? > > Kshmendra > > > > --- On *Tue, 4/21/09, Venugopalan K M * wrote: > > "In short, I would say that there indeed exists a concept of 'Muslim > voter' in India, notwithstanding that individual voters might > challenge this blanket concept in a particular context and would > endorse the same in another context. In my view, there is nothing > reprehensible in acting in this manner, when we take into > considerations the imperatives of grave challenges to the very > existence of divergent faiths in India which is actually rooted in the > ideology of Brahmanical Hindutwa. This is the most deplorable form of > cultural nationalism, which likes to ground the very idea of > citizenship in it. Even the Indian constitution is anathema to this > band of nationalists,who fortunately did not enjoy the mandate of more > than a fifth of all Indian voters even in their best days! In the 2004 > elections they seemed dangerously close to a second tenure of office > thanks to the oprtunist realpolitiking by the regional parties and to > the support of the upper caste dominated media." > > > -- http://venukm.blogspot.com/ From kshmendra2005 at yahoo.com Tue Apr 21 15:24:52 2009 From: kshmendra2005 at yahoo.com (Kshmendra Kaul) Date: Tue, 21 Apr 2009 02:54:52 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Reader-list] Sri Ram Sene & Pakistani Journalists at IIC Seminar & Indian Media Reportage Message-ID: <589975.57471.qm@web57201.mail.re3.yahoo.com> Rahimullah Yusufzai, the author of the piece reproduced below was the first journalist to interview Osama Bin Ladin. He is very highly respected and especially as an expert analyst on Afghanistan and the NWFP (North West Frontier Province) and FATA (Federally Administered Tribal Areas) in Pakistan.   Kshmendra     "The good, the bad and the ugly"    Tuesday, April 21, 2009 By Rahimullah Yusufzai "Is media jingoism fanning Indo-Pak tensions?" was the topic of a panel discussion at the sprawling India International Centre (IIC) in New Delhi on April 15. Indian and Pakistani journalists, along with celebrated writer Arundhati Roy, were discussing the issue in a cordial and friendly atmosphere when a small group of Hindu extremists decided to disrupt the proceedings. This was the kind of intolerance that scribes from the two neighbouring countries were hoping to confront in the media and in society at large. But the media, particularly the electronic one, has its own dynamics. Within minutes, the Indian TV channels were flashing 'breaking news' about an attack by activists of the radical Hindu group, Sri Rama Sene, on Pakistani journalists at the IIC. Soon the news was picked up by the Pakistani TV channels and sections of the world media. Before long, worried family members and friends started calling me and the other three Pakistani journalists – Beena Sarwar, Saeed Minhas and Muniba Kamal -- attending the seminar. Explaining the episode to concerned well-wishers wasn't easy because most of the media, as usual, had misreported the incident. Reporters not present at the IIC were getting bits of information from secondary sources and passing it on unverified to their news organisations. The end-product comprised half-truths. A Sri Rama Sene member being pushed out of the auditorium was identified as a Pakistani journalist and so on. Contrary to the headlines, none of us was manhandled. In fact, we were sitting on the stage in the large auditorium of the IIC while the Sri Rama Sene members, their numbers ranging from four to 10 to 30 according to different accounts, were seated in the back and in no position to harm us. All they could do was to shout slogans like 'Pakistan Hai Hai' and 'Pakistan Murdabad' before the organisers and IIC security personnel threw them out of the auditorium. They had sneaked or forced their way into the hall because participation was by invitation and the invitees had to register themselves before entering the auditorium. The disruption caused was brief and the seminar proceeded as per schedule. The Sri Rama Sene activists were later pushed out of the IIC premises but none was detained by the over 50 policemen guarding the place. As happens so often in the Indo-Pak subcontinent, extra security was provided to us after the incident and cops were present in strength at The Indian Express and The Hindustan Times offices that we subsequently visited. Members of the Sri Rama Sene, one of the several Hindu extremist groups that operate in India, failed to disrupt the Delhi seminar. Almost all those present at the packed IIC auditorium were Indians but none appeared to sympathise with the tactics used by the group. They wanted the panel discussion to continue and since I was speaking at the time, the organisers urged me to keep talking. It soon dawned on me that the Sri Rama Sene activists had started clapping in delight when I mentioned the kind of rabid anti-Pakistan articles and comments appearing in the Indian media following the November 26, 2008, Mumbai attacks. Some of the Indian writers and commentators had asked their government to attack and dismember Pakistan and end once and for all the source of terrorism directed against India. This had obviously delighted the handful of the uninvited Sri Rama Sene members in the auditorium and prompted them to do some clapping. However, they weren't pleased when one referred to comments appearing in sections of the Pakistani media regarding joint Indo-US plans to harm Pakistan. The mention of strong anti-India comments in the Pakistani print and electronic media wasn't to their liking and they responded by shouting anti-Pakistan and pro-India slogans. The protest by the Sri Rama Sene activists was pre-planned. This was conceded by the group's national general secretary, Vinay Kumar Singh, who said they wanted the seminar to be wrapped up. Apart from the Pakistani journalists, their anger was also directed at writer Arundhati Roy, the author of the award-winning book, The God of Small Things. The diminutive young lady from Kerala has emerged as a conscientious social activist who is brave enough to take up the cause of the poor and the dispossessed. She has been speaking her mind against Hindu fundamentalists and the exploitative classes. She isn't afraid of talking about the need to resolve the Kashmir issue in keeping with the aspirations of the people of Jammu and Kashmir. This line of thinking is obviously unpopular in India. Even at the Delhi seminar at the IIC, she was the only speaker to make a mention of the unresolved Kashmir conflict. Indian colleagues said members of the Hindu extremist groups often follow her at events that she is attending so that they could heckle and disrupt her speeches. India no doubt is a great democracy where there is freedom of speech but certain intolerant sections of the Indian society are threatening to silence those who think and speak differently. Despite the rising intolerance and threats, enlightened Indians continue their efforts to be heard and to let others, including Pakistanis, speak their mind. The panel discussion in Delhi was organised by a new organisation of dedicated journalists known as the Foundation of Media Professionals with collaboration from the Indian branch of the oldest German foundation, Friedrich Ebert Stiftung. Veteran journalist Madhur Trehan is president of the Foundation of Media Professionals which, in the past year, has held four events on diverse and important media-related issues. Anirudha Behl, Srinivasan and their colleagues in the media are determined to provide a platform to people with diverse opinions. The Sri Rama Sene people also have the right to be heard but one wished they had waited for the question-answer session after the presentations to put across their viewpoint and to put the speakers in the dock. True to their reputation, they showed intolerance just one day before India went to polls in an amazing democratic spectacle that has been rightly described as a miracle of democracy. Imagine 714 million voters taking part in the month-long, five-stage voting exercise that would end on May 13 and could be a logistics and security nightmare for even the most developed countries. India manages to regularly accomplish such a massive electoral exercise without fail. It is democracy that has kept India intact because its people, impoverished or otherwise, know that they could change their governments with the force of a ballot. And such is the power of the vote that even a Dalit woman, Mayawati, from the country's Untouchable Hindu caste could become the chief minister of India's most populous state, Uttar Pradesh, and now aspire for the office of the prime minister. The Hindu extremist groups clamouring for Hindutva would do well to embrace tolerance so that India could continue to march on the path of secularism and democracy. The writer is resident editor of The News in Peshawar. Email: rahimyusufzai at yahoo.com http://www.thenews.com.pk/daily_detail.asp?id=173478     From kaksanjay at gmail.com Tue Apr 21 15:25:27 2009 From: kaksanjay at gmail.com (Sanjay Kak) Date: Tue, 21 Apr 2009 15:25:27 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] The 'upper caste dominated' Media In-Reply-To: <1f9180970904210216k7491c131pa7ee18e807d8f5d3@mail.gmail.com> References: <1f9180970904202100m2a329dc8i8718417566b97e2a@mail.gmail.com> <74753.9861.qm@web57207.mail.re3.yahoo.com> <1f9180970904210216k7491c131pa7ee18e807d8f5d3@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <5c5369880904210255l582483b4j4c348f7a74ce3e13@mail.gmail.com> ''Twice born Hindus ('dwijas' comprising Brahmins, Kayasthas, Rajputs, Vaishyas and Khatris) account for about 16 per cent of India's population, but they are about 86 per cent among the key media decision-makers. Brahmins (including Bhumihars and Tyagis) alone constitute 49 per cent of the key media personnel'' Here is one attempt at an empirical study of what sometimes may seem obvious: Sanjay Kak ----------------------------- http://world.rediff.com/news/article/in/news/2006/jun/05quota1.htm June 05, 2006 Upper castes dominate media: Survey The news about the national media is hardly flattering if the findings of a survey are to be believed. The national media, which front-paged the reservation controversy in all its facets, is now itself being sucked into that quagmire with the first-of-its-kind survey revealing that top echelons of media establishments are dominated by ''Hindu upper caste men.'' Jointly conducted by Yogendra Yadav, senior fellow at the Centre for the Study of Developing Societies, Anil Chamaria, a freelance journalist, and Jitendra Kumar from the Media Study Group, the controversial survey says India's 'national media' lacks social diversity and does not reflect the country's social profile. ''Hindu upper caste men dominate the media. They are about eight per cent of India's population but among the key decision-makers of the national media, their share is as high as 71 per cent,'' it points out. The survey, which tracked the social profile of 315 senior journalists in 37 English and Hindi dailies and TV channels, also revealed gender bias in the media establishments. It was carried out by volunteers of Media Study Group between May 30 and June 3. ''Only 17 per cent of the key decision-makers are women though their representation is somewhat better (32 per cent) in the English electronic media,'' it says. Women account for 16 per cent of top editorial posts in the English print media and 14 per cent and 11 per cent in the Hindi print media and electronic media, respectively. The survey also takes a swipe at media's caste profile, describing it as 'unrepresentative'. ''Twice born Hindus ('dwijas' comprising Brahmins, Kayasthas, Rajputs, Vaishyas and Khatris) account for about 16 per cent of India's population, but they are about 86 per cent among the key media decision-makers. Brahmins (including Bhumihars and Tyagis) alone constitute 49 per cent of the key media personnel,'' he survey adds. If 'non-dwija' forward castes like Marathas, Patels, Jats and Reddys are also added to this list, the total share of the upper castes would be pegged at a staggering 88 per cent. Further, Dalits and Adivasis, points out the survey, are conspicuous by their absence among the decision-makers. Not even one of the 315 key decision-makers belongs to the Scheduled Castes or Scheduled Tribes. ''The proportion of the OBCs is abysmally low among the key decision-makers in the national media They are only four per cent compared to their population of around 43 per cent in the country,'' it added. The representation of Muslims is also grossly under-represented in the national media, the survey notes. Muslims, who comprise 13.4 per cent of the country's population, have a share of only four per cent in top media posts. Muslims, however, fare better in the Hindi electronic media, accounting for around six per cent of major decision-makers. In the national capital itself, there were no Muslims at the seniormost levels. The facts are more palatable with regard to the Christians, who are proportionately represented in the media, mainly in the English media. Their share is about four per cent compared to their population of 2.3 per cent. The survey also makes a reference to ''doubly disatvantaged'' social groups such as women belonging to OBCs or backward caste Muslims and Christians. ''Social groups that suffer double disadvantage' are nearly absent among the key decsion-makers. There are no women among the few OBC decision makers and negligible backwards among the Muslims and Christians,'' the survey notes. The findings were based on a survey of designation, age, caste, religion, mother tongue, gender and domicile of a maximum of 10 top decision-makers from 37 media establishments. Powered by: UNI --------------- There are other links, which show up when you search Yogendra Yadav+Anil Chamadia+Jitendra Kumar eg http://indianchristians.in/news/content/view/1118/48/ On Tue, Apr 21, 2009 at 2:46 PM, Venugopalan K M wrote: > > Dear Kshamendra, > I would ask you to tell me which is not dominated by the upper caste ; > perhaps that would be much easier,though my understanding in terms of > exactly which castes are running the show is limited..I said only that it is > dominated by the upper caste hindus both in terms of ownership as well as > control.I am very open to be criticized and got corrected. > Thanks, > Venu > > On 4/21/09, Kshmendra Kaul wrote: > > > > Dear Venugopalan > > > > You have written that in 2004 the 'band of nationalists' who subscribe to a > > 'form of cultural nationalism' which is 'rooted in the ideology of > > Brahmanical Hindutwa' seemed to be dangerously close to a second tenure in > > office thanks to (amongst others factors) "the support of the upper caste > > dominated media." > > > > I would like to understand: > > > > - Which is this Media which is 'upper caste dominated' that commands such > > an influence? > > > > - How does one reach the conclusion that it is 'upper caste dominated'? > > > > Kshmendra > > > > > > > > --- On *Tue, 4/21/09, Venugopalan K M * wrote: > > > > "In short, I would say that there indeed exists a concept of 'Muslim > > voter' in India,  notwithstanding that individual voters might > > challenge this blanket concept in a particular context and would > > endorse the same in another context. In my view, there is nothing > > reprehensible in acting in this manner, when we take into > > considerations the imperatives of grave challenges to the very > > existence of divergent faiths in India which is actually rooted in the > > ideology of Brahmanical Hindutwa. This is the most deplorable form of > > cultural nationalism, which likes to ground the very idea of > > citizenship in it. Even the Indian constitution is anathema to this > > band of nationalists,who fortunately did not enjoy the mandate of more > > than a fifth of all Indian voters even in their best days! In the 2004 > > elections they seemed dangerously close to a second tenure of office > > thanks to the oprtunist realpolitiking by the regional parties and to > > the support of the upper caste dominated media." > > > > > > > > > -- > http://venukm.blogspot.com/ > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with subscribe in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> From c.anupam at gmail.com Tue Apr 21 15:26:26 2009 From: c.anupam at gmail.com (anupam chakravartty) Date: Tue, 21 Apr 2009 15:26:26 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Anhad activists beaten up in Gujarat Message-ID: <341380d00904210256n2896ffe6v69fd6ef71d5ee7d5@mail.gmail.com> *Anhad activists beaten up in Gujarat * ** Staff Reporter *They were campaigning in Gandhinagar asking people to vote * ------------------------------ * Alleged members of the VHP and the BJP wielding lathis surrounded them The victims could not even file FIR due to presence of the accused at the police station * ------------------------------ NEW DELHI: Over two-dozen activists of ANHAD, a trust that works towards pluralism, secularism and democracy, were allegedly beaten up at Gandhinagar in Gujarat on Monday during an election campaign. The attack took place in the afternoon when the ANHAD activists were campaigning in Naranpura in the Shastri Nagar area asking people to use their Constitutional rights and exercise their franchise. “The campaign started in the morning and the activists formed three separate groups to reach out effectively to the electorate. It was around 1 p.m. when a large number of goons owing allegiance to the Vishwa Hindu Parishad and the Bharatiya Janata Party wielding lathis surrounded them. Our activists, including women, were abused and pushed around. Two of them, Sachin Pandya and Robin Soni, were allegedly kicked and punched all over,” said ANHAD founding member Shabnam Hashmi, at a press conference here. The campaign aimed at awakening people towards their Constitutional rights, including right to vote, and exploding the “myth” of vibrant Gujarat was kicked-off on Sunday. Ms. Hashmi said the attackers took away leaflets and other printed material carried by the ANHAD activists and threatened them with dire consequences if they reported the matter to the police. “Though the activists escaped with minor injuries, but it could have turned either way. It has happened to our activists many times in the past six months. Even lodging a First Information Report is dangerous in such cases. We are now planning to approach the Election Commission in the present case,” Ms. Hashmi added. Alleging that the BJP cadres even stopped them from filing a police complaint, Sachin Pandya, said: “When we reached the Gatlodiya police station in the evening, we found a dozen BJP cadres standing near it. Not willing to take risk, we returned without filing a report. Now we are planning to approach the Police Commissioner.” From pawan.durani at gmail.com Tue Apr 21 15:39:24 2009 From: pawan.durani at gmail.com (Pawan Durani) Date: Tue, 21 Apr 2009 15:39:24 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] The 'upper caste dominated' Media In-Reply-To: <5c5369880904210255l582483b4j4c348f7a74ce3e13@mail.gmail.com> References: <1f9180970904202100m2a329dc8i8718417566b97e2a@mail.gmail.com> <74753.9861.qm@web57207.mail.re3.yahoo.com> <1f9180970904210216k7491c131pa7ee18e807d8f5d3@mail.gmail.com> <5c5369880904210255l582483b4j4c348f7a74ce3e13@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <6b79f1a70904210309s6cb5fb13kaa0390a3d7c2ab0e@mail.gmail.com> This 16% are born brahmins , and a large part of 86% are accidentaly brahmins like some filmakers. Pawan On Tue, Apr 21, 2009 at 3:25 PM, Sanjay Kak wrote: > ''Twice born Hindus ('dwijas' comprising Brahmins, Kayasthas, Rajputs, > Vaishyas and Khatris) account for about 16 per cent of India's > population, but they are about 86 per cent among the key media > decision-makers. Brahmins (including Bhumihars and Tyagis) alone > constitute 49 per cent of the key media personnel'' > > Here is one attempt at an empirical study of what sometimes may seem > obvious: > Sanjay Kak > > ----------------------------- > > http://world.rediff.com/news/article/in/news/2006/jun/05quota1.htm > > June 05, 2006 > > Upper castes dominate media: Survey > > The news about the national media is hardly flattering if the findings > of a survey are to be believed. > > The national media, which front-paged the reservation controversy in > all its facets, is now itself being sucked into that quagmire with the > first-of-its-kind survey revealing that top echelons of media > establishments are dominated by ''Hindu upper caste men.'' > > Jointly conducted by Yogendra Yadav, senior fellow at the Centre for > the Study of Developing Societies, Anil Chamaria, a freelance > journalist, and Jitendra Kumar from the Media Study Group, the > controversial survey says India's 'national media' lacks social > diversity and does not reflect the country's social profile. > > ''Hindu upper caste men dominate the media. They are about eight per > cent of India's population but among the key decision-makers of the > national media, their share is as high as 71 per cent,'' it points > out. > > The survey, which tracked the social profile of 315 senior journalists > in 37 English and Hindi dailies and TV channels, also revealed gender > bias in the media establishments. It was carried out by volunteers of > Media Study Group between May 30 and June 3. > > ''Only 17 per cent of the key decision-makers are women though their > representation is somewhat better (32 per cent) in the English > electronic media,'' it says. > > Women account for 16 per cent of top editorial posts in the English > print media and 14 per cent and 11 per cent in the Hindi print media > and electronic media, respectively. > > The survey also takes a swipe at media's caste profile, describing it > as 'unrepresentative'. > > ''Twice born Hindus ('dwijas' comprising Brahmins, Kayasthas, Rajputs, > Vaishyas and Khatris) account for about 16 per cent of India's > population, but they are about 86 per cent among the key media > decision-makers. Brahmins (including Bhumihars and Tyagis) alone > constitute 49 per cent of the key media personnel,'' he survey adds. > > If 'non-dwija' forward castes like Marathas, Patels, Jats and Reddys > are also added to this list, the total share of the upper castes would > be pegged at a staggering 88 per cent. > > Further, Dalits and Adivasis, points out the survey, are conspicuous > by their absence among the decision-makers. Not even one of the 315 > key decision-makers belongs to the Scheduled Castes or Scheduled > Tribes. > > ''The proportion of the OBCs is abysmally low among the key > decision-makers in the national media They are only four per cent > compared to their population of around 43 per cent in the country,'' > it added. > > The representation of Muslims is also grossly under-represented in the > national media, the survey notes. Muslims, who comprise 13.4 per cent > of the country's population, have a share of only four per cent in top > media posts. > > Muslims, however, fare better in the Hindi electronic media, > accounting for around six per cent of major decision-makers. In the > national capital itself, there were no Muslims at the seniormost > levels. > > The facts are more palatable with regard to the Christians, who are > proportionately represented in the media, mainly in the English media. > Their share is about four per cent compared to their population of 2.3 > per cent. > > The survey also makes a reference to ''doubly disatvantaged'' social > groups such as women belonging to OBCs or backward caste Muslims and > Christians. > > ''Social groups that suffer double disadvantage' are nearly absent > among the key decsion-makers. There are no women among the few OBC > decision makers and negligible backwards among the Muslims and > Christians,'' the survey notes. > > The findings were based on a survey of designation, age, caste, > religion, mother tongue, gender and domicile of a maximum of 10 top > decision-makers from 37 media establishments. > > Powered by: UNI > --------------- > > There are other links, which show up when you search > Yogendra Yadav+Anil Chamadia+Jitendra Kumar > eg http://indianchristians.in/news/content/view/1118/48/ > > > > On Tue, Apr 21, 2009 at 2:46 PM, Venugopalan K M > wrote: > > > > Dear Kshamendra, > > I would ask you to tell me which is not dominated by the upper caste ; > > perhaps that would be much easier,though my understanding in terms of > > exactly which castes are running the show is limited..I said only that it > is > > dominated by the upper caste hindus both in terms of ownership as well as > > control.I am very open to be criticized and got corrected. > > Thanks, > > Venu > > > > On 4/21/09, Kshmendra Kaul wrote: > > > > > > Dear Venugopalan > > > > > > You have written that in 2004 the 'band of nationalists' who subscribe > to a > > > 'form of cultural nationalism' which is 'rooted in the ideology of > > > Brahmanical Hindutwa' seemed to be dangerously close to a second tenure > in > > > office thanks to (amongst others factors) "the support of the upper > caste > > > dominated media." > > > > > > I would like to understand: > > > > > > - Which is this Media which is 'upper caste dominated' that commands > such > > > an influence? > > > > > > - How does one reach the conclusion that it is 'upper caste dominated'? > > > > > > Kshmendra > > > > > > > > > > > > --- On *Tue, 4/21/09, Venugopalan K M * wrote: > > > > > > "In short, I would say that there indeed exists a concept of 'Muslim > > > voter' in India, notwithstanding that individual voters might > > > challenge this blanket concept in a particular context and would > > > endorse the same in another context. In my view, there is nothing > > > reprehensible in acting in this manner, when we take into > > > considerations the imperatives of grave challenges to the very > > > existence of divergent faiths in India which is actually rooted in the > > > ideology of Brahmanical Hindutwa. This is the most deplorable form of > > > cultural nationalism, which likes to ground the very idea of > > > citizenship in it. Even the Indian constitution is anathema to this > > > band of nationalists,who fortunately did not enjoy the mandate of more > > > than a fifth of all Indian voters even in their best days! In the 2004 > > > elections they seemed dangerously close to a second tenure of office > > > thanks to the oprtunist realpolitiking by the regional parties and to > > > the support of the upper caste dominated media." > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > -- > > http://venukm.blogspot.com/ > > _________________________________________ > > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > > Critiques & Collaborations > > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > subscribe in the subject header. > > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > subscribe in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> From kshmendra2005 at yahoo.com Tue Apr 21 16:03:58 2009 From: kshmendra2005 at yahoo.com (Kshmendra Kaul) Date: Tue, 21 Apr 2009 03:33:58 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Reader-list] The 'upper caste dominated' Media In-Reply-To: <1f9180970904210216k7491c131pa7ee18e807d8f5d3@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <955756.64389.qm@web57205.mail.re3.yahoo.com> Dear Venugopalan   You made a statement, on which I requested clarifaction. Answering my question with a question hardly helps. I might or might not agree with your statement and I might or might not agree with it's converse. The explanation is yours to give if you choose to.   I appreciate your saying that "  my understanding in terms of exactly which castes are running the show is limited"   You have also clarified that "I said only that it is dominated by the upper caste hindus both in terms of ownership as well as control."   That is not what you said earlier.   What you had conveyed was that because of  "the support of the upper caste dominated media." in 2004 the 'band of nationalists' who subscribe to a 'form of cultural nationalism' which is 'rooted in the ideology of Brahmanical Hindutwa' seemed to be dangerously close to a second tenure in office.   Your statement was not about "ownership' or "control' but about "support". But, let that be.   Whatever the 'ownership' and whatever the 'control', are you saying the Indian Media judging by it's News Reporting and excercise of other Editorial/Ownership controls shows an "upper caste dominated" bias that translates into (or led in 2004 to) "support"  for """"" 'band of nationalists' who subscribe to a 'form of cultural nationalism' which is 'rooted in the ideology of Brahmanical Hindutwa' """"" ?   Kshmendra --- On Tue, 4/21/09, Venugopalan K M wrote: From: Venugopalan K M Subject: Re: [Reader-list] The 'upper caste dominated' Media To: "sarai-list" Date: Tuesday, April 21, 2009, 2:46 PM Dear Kshamendra, I would ask you to tell me which is not dominated by the upper caste ; perhaps that would be much easier,though my understanding in terms of exactly which castes are running the show is limited..I said only that it is dominated by the upper caste hindus both in terms of ownership as well as control.I am very open to be criticized and got corrected. Thanks, Venu On 4/21/09, Kshmendra Kaul wrote: > > Dear Venugopalan > > You have written that in 2004 the 'band of nationalists' who subscribe to a > 'form of cultural nationalism' which is 'rooted in the ideology of > Brahmanical Hindutwa' seemed to be dangerously close to a second tenure in > office thanks to (amongst others factors) "the support of the upper caste > dominated media." > > I would like to understand: > > - Which is this Media which is 'upper caste dominated' that commands such > an influence? > > - How does one reach the conclusion that it is 'upper caste dominated'? > > Kshmendra > > > > --- On *Tue, 4/21/09, Venugopalan K M * wrote: > > "In short, I would say that there indeed exists a concept of 'Muslim > voter' in India, notwithstanding that individual voters might > challenge this blanket concept in a particular context and would > endorse the same in another context. In my view, there is nothing > reprehensible in acting in this manner, when we take into > considerations the imperatives of grave challenges to the very > existence of divergent faiths in India which is actually rooted in the > ideology of Brahmanical Hindutwa. This is the most deplorable form of > cultural nationalism, which likes to ground the very idea of > citizenship in it. Even the Indian constitution is anathema to this > band of nationalists,who fortunately did not enjoy the mandate of more > than a fifth of all Indian voters even in their best days! In the 2004 > elections they seemed dangerously close to a second tenure of office > thanks to the oprtunist realpolitiking by the regional parties and to > the support of the upper caste dominated media." > > > -- http://venukm.blogspot.com/ _________________________________________ reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. Critiques & Collaborations To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with subscribe in the subject header. To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> From kshmendra2005 at yahoo.com Tue Apr 21 16:06:27 2009 From: kshmendra2005 at yahoo.com (Kshmendra Kaul) Date: Tue, 21 Apr 2009 03:36:27 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Reader-list] Who dominates / owns the Media in India? In-Reply-To: <341380d00904210232w2bd8737i81d863f202ceb2a3@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <216673.32578.qm@web57208.mail.re3.yahoo.com> Dear Anupam   Thank you for putting a perspective on the issue.   Fully agree with your words "if someone can prove that brahminical understanding has something to do with the range of opinions that we encounter everyday through various channels, then it becomes really interesting."   Kshmendra --- On Tue, 4/21/09, anupam chakravartty wrote: From: anupam chakravartty Subject: Re: [Reader-list] Who dominates / owns the Media in India? To: "sarai list" Date: Tuesday, April 21, 2009, 3:02 PM It is true that there is a brahminical domination in media in terms of number people from such and such caste. However, diversity of the opinions raised by various media houses it just proves caste or religion doesn't really matter. what matters for most of the media personnel is a good package, some kind of exposure, meeting people, exchanging information and writings. however, if someone can prove that brahminical understanding has something to do with the range of opinions that we encounter everyday through various channels, then it becomes really interesting. but most of it would commit the fallacy of accident. thanks- anupam On 4/21/09, Kshmendra Kaul wrote: > > That the Media in India (in part or with overwhelming influence) is > dominated by the "upper caste" is not the only opinion about it. > > Many or most of the List members might have come across two interesting > emails that have been circulating for quite some time that claim to tell you > the 'real truth' about the Media in India: > > 1. One such Email details for you the ownership of almost all the prominent > Indian Media Houses, seeking to establish that it is owned/controlled by > either the Leftists or the Islamists or the Christianists. > > 2. The second such Email takes you on a journey of not only the ownership > of the Media Houses but also how the prominent personalities in Media, > Politics and Bueraucracy are directly or indirectly related/linked to each > other and therefore collectively excercise a vice like grip. > > What interests me is the references that are made to "upper caste" > domination of the Media. It is also sometimes called "Brahmanical > domination'. > > - Is it the "Brahmanical and/or upper caste domination" of Hindus? > > - Is this "Brahmanical and/or upper caste domination" just a metaphor that > might equally apply to Hindus, Muslims, Christians etc or might apply to > Economic Caste Divisions? > > Kshmendra > > > > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > subscribe in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: _________________________________________ reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. Critiques & Collaborations To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with subscribe in the subject header. To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> From rajen882uppinangadi at gmail.com Tue Apr 21 16:31:30 2009 From: rajen882uppinangadi at gmail.com (Rajen Uppinangadi) Date: Tue, 21 Apr 2009 16:31:30 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Brahminical dominence ? Message-ID: <61164a90904210401k462156f8u40f90cea6a76c155@mail.gmail.com> Hi, Venu, List is at times, makes up for the surprise packages for all with undertones of "caste" and is casted with caste as theme of hate, if one post talks of twice born as brahmins, another talks of brahminical domination of media, which are again myths to say the least, if otherwise it is meant to be "learned" are brahmins, knowledgeable "caste", then may be it is acceptable but still as we strive for togetherness above the caste and faith conundrums of hate, it is really ammusing that of all you start with this theme of hate on the basi of caste.? To illustrate, Mr. Kancha Illayya, regular columnist, who takes up issues of oppressed is a brahmin by his domination in media with the issues, just as sage Vishwamitra who gave the most potent manthra, Gayathri, is brahmin by his work, not by birth.? But contrary examples are also are visible in society, where by birth some are brahmins, but behaviour is that of worse than anyone, like the Dr. Murli manohar Joshi, in his acts and utterances.? Again, a journalist and lecturer in Physics., Dr. Joshi, who blindly follows the rituals without knowing the reasons behind such rituals, is again worse off even as brahmin born, as birth does not give the right to oppress others.? For example, the meaning of twice born is that once the child is born, at the tender age of around 12 years, he is vowed to go for higher studies to Benares, and the trip being in olden days, hazardous, it was presumed to be secong birth to undertake such a long journey for education, times have changed with chools imparting education at hop, skip and jump distances from homes these days.? As to media and media houses, most of them are run atleast in Karnataka by Idigas, or theeyas, or known in slang as toddy tappers, so the education has changed everything, let us come out of this caste fixation, judge the works rather than the caste.Visual media channels are again run by individuals who know how to run the business with trps, news is not what viewers want, but what the channels dish out as views in news in this age of info-tainment. Otherwise how do you explain the anchors and their behaviour with type of presentation of "news" compared to western media, where anchors are better dressed with least exposure of made up face and bodies.? Regards, Rajen. From kmvenuannur at gmail.com Tue Apr 21 17:50:48 2009 From: kmvenuannur at gmail.com (Venugopalan K M) Date: Tue, 21 Apr 2009 17:50:48 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Brahminical dominence ? In-Reply-To: <61164a90904210401k462156f8u40f90cea6a76c155@mail.gmail.com> References: <61164a90904210401k462156f8u40f90cea6a76c155@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <1f9180970904210520i7b46f3der639cf53ef5821d0@mail.gmail.com> Dear Rajen, By adopting such a position on Brahmanical and Brahmanism, one will stand to lose the very usefulness of this important concept. As you were stating it has less to do with propagating hate than understanding the exceptionally institutionalized and ritualized hate in the social and cultural life of India. This is sure to raise lot of other questions: Why, for example after the happening of the Khairlanji in September 2006 {almost the entire people of a village participate in the act of parading naked,raping,(women),killing and mutilating the bodies of the 4 victims who were members of a dalit family (converted to Budhism) }, the entire media kept silence for about one month? So , an understanding of Brahmanism together with Brahmanical ways of thinking, not only does not talk of Brahmans as persons but more as a collective and typically negative attitude. It is characterized by defending privileges with respect to the ascending order of caste and denying equality; significantly women of all castes are automatically considered inferior to their male counterparts(this is also seen in every other religion; but practices of cruelty to widows ,women not giving birth to to male offsprings, not able to consummate marriage etc,etc are viewed with special contempt in the brahmanical Hinduism).The extremely negative attitude to change or reform is a direct result of a desire to protect the system of privileges to the exclusion of others. These are generally what are considered as traits associated with Brahmanism.Unfortunately, majority of victims of this system of heirarchy are ideologically co-opted to it; they are not expected to doubt the system which is has been taught to them as divinely ordained.They are expected to just obey without grumbles and get better off in the future birth.(*Chathrvarnam maya srushtam guna karma vibhagasa*- The system has been created by me according to your past *karma*and your qualities and just do your caste-ordained duties-this is the message of Bhagvan in Gita (Ch IX verse 32 ?..I don't remember it correctly) I'm not suggesting that every person believing in the Hindu scriptures and the Gita would support mass murders and ritualistic killings of dalits as happened in khairlanji..not that the media always will attempt to cover up such incidents.To be certain, in the media controlled by the upper caste Hindus,there is always a tendency to underplay the unpleasant factors related with caste. Gandhi was a great admirer and interpretor of Gita and yet he was assassinated by Godse, who was a fanatic adherent of Brahmanism.But even Gandhi believed in a Ramarajya of his own notion..so are the less enlightened 'Hindu' masses to a greater or lesser degree in denying equality to women and lower castes, the very victims of discriminations included.Then, not to speak of the tendency to resist reservations and to monopolize knowledge and power by a minority. Certainly, the print media dominated by the upper caste plays a significant role in perpetuating the bias against the under privileged.The internet and the electronic media at a more globalized level, are able to challenge this privilege of the upper caste elites in significant ways. Regards, Venu. Regards, Venu. On Tue, Apr 21, 2009 at 4:31 PM, Rajen Uppinangadi < rajen882uppinangadi at gmail.com> wrote: > Hi, > > Venu, > > List is at times, makes up for the surprise packages for all with > undertones of "caste" and is casted with caste as theme of hate, if one > post talks of twice born as brahmins, another talks of brahminical > domination of media, which are again myths to say the least, if otherwise it > is meant to be "learned" are brahmins, knowledgeable "caste", then may be > it is acceptable but still as we strive for togetherness above the caste and > faith conundrums of hate, it is really ammusing that of all you start with > this theme of hate on the basi of caste.? > > To illustrate, Mr. Kancha Illayya, regular columnist, who takes up issues > of oppressed is a brahmin by his domination in media with the issues, just > as sage Vishwamitra who gave the most potent manthra, Gayathri, is brahmin > by his work, not by birth.? But contrary examples are also are visible in > society, where by birth some are brahmins, but behaviour is that of worse > than anyone, like the Dr. Murli manohar Joshi, in his acts and utterances.? > Again, a journalist and lecturer in Physics., Dr. Joshi, who blindly follows > the rituals without knowing the reasons behind such rituals, is again worse > off even as brahmin born, as birth does not give the right to oppress > others.? For example, the meaning of twice born is that once the child is > born, at the tender age of around 12 years, he is vowed to go for higher > studies to Benares, and the trip being in olden days, hazardous, it was > presumed to be secong birth to undertake such a long journey for education, > times have changed with chools imparting education at hop, skip and jump > distances from homes these days.? > > As to media and media houses, most of them are run atleast in Karnataka > by Idigas, or theeyas, or known in slang as toddy tappers, so the education > has changed everything, let us come out of this caste fixation, judge the > works rather than the caste.Visual media channels are again run by > individuals who know how to run the business with trps, news is not what > viewers want, but what the channels dish out as views in news in this age of > info-tainment. Otherwise how do you explain the anchors and their behaviour > with type of presentation of "news" compared to western media, where anchors > are better dressed with least exposure of made up face and bodies.? > > Regards, > > Rajen. > > > -- http://venukm.blogspot.com/ From indersalim at gmail.com Tue Apr 21 18:32:35 2009 From: indersalim at gmail.com (Inder Salim) Date: Tue, 21 Apr 2009 18:32:35 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] attack on Anhad Activist by BHP/VHP Message-ID: <47e122a70904210602j7817da6wdcf2847abba7cbda@mail.gmail.com> Date – 20/ 04/2009 Anhad and Aman Samudaya activists were brutally beaten up today by BJP/ VHP members at two different locations in Shastri Nagar, Naranpura (Gandhi Nagar Constituency) while they were doing a door to door campaign. The activists were surrounded near Pallav 4 Rasta and in Arpit Restaurant in Shastri Nagar abused, women activists were pushed around . Sachin Pandya and Robin Soni were kicked, punched and beaten with sticks. Using extremely filthy language the hoodlums threatened the activists never to enter that area again or face dire consequences. All this happened around 1:00 pm. A man on black activa having BJP sticker on it, came and asked them to stop campaigning in the area. He made several calls and soon sachin and robin were surrounded by around 20-25hoodlums, who started beating them . Arpit restaurant where volunteers of Anhad & Aman Samuday were sitting to have lunch were also surrounded by BJP activists came on bikes and car (some of the nos. of cars and bikes are – GJ 1 FM 5547, GJ 1 DF 7347, GJ 1 EL 2080, GJ 1 6931, GJ 1 FM 2993). In the mean time a lady named Geeta and a man named Gautam, both BJP activist came in the fore front started abusing with fowl language. Rasheeda and Shivani Singh were pshed around and manhandled by the BJP hoodlums. They also ruffed up other activists. The BJP goons took away all the campaign materail. One of the leaflet is attached which was not allowed to be distributed. We have complaint to the election commssion. We are in the process of filing a complaint with the Police Commissioner. Anhad demands an immediate arrest of the hoodlums who attacked the activists. This has happened in the 'PM in waiting' Advani's constituency. Is this going to happen all over India if he becomes the PM? Source: The Hindu (http://www.hinduonnet.com/2009/04/21/stories/2009042157260400.htm) New Delhi    Anhad activists beaten up in Gujarat Staff Reporter They were campaigning in Gandhinagar asking people to vote Alleged members of the VHP and the BJP wielding lathis surrounded themThe victims could not even file FIR due to presence of the accused at the police station NEW DELHI: Over two-dozen activists of ANHAD, a trust that works towards pluralism, secularism and democracy, were allegedly beaten up at Gandhinagar in Gujarat on Monday during an election campaign. The attack took place in the afternoon when the ANHAD activists were campaigning in Naranpura in the Shastri Nagar area asking people to use their Constitutional rights and exercise their franchise. The campaign started in the morning and the activists formed three separate groups to reach out effectively to the electorate. It was around 1 p.m. when a large number of goons owing allegiance to the Vishwa Hindu Parishad and the Bharatiya Janata Party wielding lathis surrounded them. Our activists, including women, were abused and pushed around. Two of them, Sachin Pandya and Robin Soni, were allegedly kicked and punched all over,said ANHAD founding member Shabnam Hashmi, at a press conference here. The campaign aimed at awakening people towards their Constitutional rights, including right to vote, and exploding the of vibrant Gujarat was kicked-off on Sunday. Ms. Hashmi said the attackers took away leaflets and other printed material carried by the ANHAD activists and threatened them with dire consequences if they reported the matter to the police. Though the activists escaped with minor injuries, but it could have turned either way. It has happened to our activists many times in the past six months. Even lodging a First Information Report is dangerous in such cases. We are now planning to approach the Election Commission in the present case, Ms. Hashmi added. Alleging that the BJP cadres even stopped them from filing a police complaint, Sachin Pandya, said When we reached the Gatlodiya police station in the evening, we found a dozen BJP cadres standing near it. Not willing to take risk, we returned without filing a report. Now we are planning to approach the Police Commissione. From kshmendra2005 at yahoo.com Tue Apr 21 19:03:56 2009 From: kshmendra2005 at yahoo.com (Kshmendra Kaul) Date: Tue, 21 Apr 2009 06:33:56 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Reader-list] The 'upper caste dominated' Media In-Reply-To: <5c5369880904210255l582483b4j4c348f7a74ce3e13@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <664338.48652.qm@web57208.mail.re3.yahoo.com> Dear Sanjay   Thank you for this report giving some idea of the statistics of what was being discussed. It brings out clearly that there is nowhere close to a proportional representation on basis of religion and caste in the Media:   - top echelons of media establishments are dominated by ''Hindu upper caste men.'' - India's 'national media' lacks social diversity and does not reflect the country's social profile   That, as you said is confirmation of what may seem obvious.   The question however is that, do these figures find themselves widespreadly reflected in Media bias favouring or against an identity group. If they do, it would be a terrible comment on the professionalism of the Media. Exceptions accepted.   In my opinion, Anupam Chakravartty made just the appropriate comment when he wrote:   ''''''''   It is true that there is a brahminical domination in media in terms of number people from such and such caste. However, diversity of the opinions raised by various media houses it just proves caste or religion doesn't really matter. what matters for most of the media personnel is a good package, some kind of exposure, meeting people, exchanging information and writings. however, if someone can prove that brahminical understanding has something to do with the range of opinions that we encounter everyday through various channels, then it becomes really interesting. but most of it would commit the fallacy of accident.""""""   This was also at the core of my asking Venugopalan to clarify the statement/suggestion that the "upper caste dominated" Media were in 2004 (or are supportive) towards the "ideology of Brahmanical Hindutva"   Kshmendra   --- On Tue, 4/21/09, Sanjay Kak wrote: From: Sanjay Kak Subject: Re: [Reader-list] The 'upper caste dominated' Media To: "Sarai Reader List" Date: Tuesday, April 21, 2009, 3:25 PM ''Twice born Hindus ('dwijas' comprising Brahmins, Kayasthas, Rajputs, Vaishyas and Khatris) account for about 16 per cent of India's population, but they are about 86 per cent among the key media decision-makers. Brahmins (including Bhumihars and Tyagis) alone constitute 49 per cent of the key media personnel'' Here is one attempt at an empirical study of what sometimes may seem obvious: Sanjay Kak ----------------------------- http://world.rediff.com/news/article/in/news/2006/jun/05quota1.htm June 05, 2006 Upper castes dominate media: Survey The news about the national media is hardly flattering if the findings of a survey are to be believed. The national media, which front-paged the reservation controversy in all its facets, is now itself being sucked into that quagmire with the first-of-its-kind survey revealing that top echelons of media establishments are dominated by ''Hindu upper caste men.'' Jointly conducted by Yogendra Yadav, senior fellow at the Centre for the Study of Developing Societies, Anil Chamaria, a freelance journalist, and Jitendra Kumar from the Media Study Group, the controversial survey says India's 'national media' lacks social diversity and does not reflect the country's social profile. ''Hindu upper caste men dominate the media. They are about eight per cent of India's population but among the key decision-makers of the national media, their share is as high as 71 per cent,'' it points out. The survey, which tracked the social profile of 315 senior journalists in 37 English and Hindi dailies and TV channels, also revealed gender bias in the media establishments. It was carried out by volunteers of Media Study Group between May 30 and June 3. ''Only 17 per cent of the key decision-makers are women though their representation is somewhat better (32 per cent) in the English electronic media,'' it says. Women account for 16 per cent of top editorial posts in the English print media and 14 per cent and 11 per cent in the Hindi print media and electronic media, respectively. The survey also takes a swipe at media's caste profile, describing it as 'unrepresentative'. ''Twice born Hindus ('dwijas' comprising Brahmins, Kayasthas, Rajputs, Vaishyas and Khatris) account for about 16 per cent of India's population, but they are about 86 per cent among the key media decision-makers. Brahmins (including Bhumihars and Tyagis) alone constitute 49 per cent of the key media personnel,'' he survey adds. If 'non-dwija' forward castes like Marathas, Patels, Jats and Reddys are also added to this list, the total share of the upper castes would be pegged at a staggering 88 per cent. Further, Dalits and Adivasis, points out the survey, are conspicuous by their absence among the decision-makers. Not even one of the 315 key decision-makers belongs to the Scheduled Castes or Scheduled Tribes. ''The proportion of the OBCs is abysmally low among the key decision-makers in the national media They are only four per cent compared to their population of around 43 per cent in the country,'' it added. The representation of Muslims is also grossly under-represented in the national media, the survey notes. Muslims, who comprise 13.4 per cent of the country's population, have a share of only four per cent in top media posts. Muslims, however, fare better in the Hindi electronic media, accounting for around six per cent of major decision-makers. In the national capital itself, there were no Muslims at the seniormost levels. The facts are more palatable with regard to the Christians, who are proportionately represented in the media, mainly in the English media. Their share is about four per cent compared to their population of 2.3 per cent. The survey also makes a reference to ''doubly disatvantaged'' social groups such as women belonging to OBCs or backward caste Muslims and Christians. ''Social groups that suffer double disadvantage' are nearly absent among the key decsion-makers. There are no women among the few OBC decision makers and negligible backwards among the Muslims and Christians,'' the survey notes. The findings were based on a survey of designation, age, caste, religion, mother tongue, gender and domicile of a maximum of 10 top decision-makers from 37 media establishments. Powered by: UNI --------------- There are other links, which show up when you search Yogendra Yadav+Anil Chamadia+Jitendra Kumar eg http://indianchristians.in/news/content/view/1118/48/ On Tue, Apr 21, 2009 at 2:46 PM, Venugopalan K M wrote: > > Dear Kshamendra, > I would ask you to tell me which is not dominated by the upper caste ; > perhaps that would be much easier,though my understanding in terms of > exactly which castes are running the show is limited..I said only that it is > dominated by the upper caste hindus both in terms of ownership as well as > control.I am very open to be criticized and got corrected. > Thanks, > Venu > > On 4/21/09, Kshmendra Kaul wrote: > > > > Dear Venugopalan > > > > You have written that in 2004 the 'band of nationalists' who subscribe to a > > 'form of cultural nationalism' which is 'rooted in the ideology of > > Brahmanical Hindutwa' seemed to be dangerously close to a second tenure in > > office thanks to (amongst others factors) "the support of the upper caste > > dominated media." > > > > I would like to understand: > > > > - Which is this Media which is 'upper caste dominated' that commands such > > an influence? > > > > - How does one reach the conclusion that it is 'upper caste dominated'? > > > > Kshmendra > > > > > > > > --- On *Tue, 4/21/09, Venugopalan K M * wrote: > > > > "In short, I would say that there indeed exists a concept of 'Muslim > > voter' in India,  notwithstanding that individual voters might > > challenge this blanket concept in a particular context and would > > endorse the same in another context. In my view, there is nothing > > reprehensible in acting in this manner, when we take into > > considerations the imperatives of grave challenges to the very > > existence of divergent faiths in India which is actually rooted in the > > ideology of Brahmanical Hindutwa. This is the most deplorable form of > > cultural nationalism, which likes to ground the very idea of > > citizenship in it. Even the Indian constitution is anathema to this > > band of nationalists,who fortunately did not enjoy the mandate of more > > than a fifth of all Indian voters even in their best days! In the 2004 > > elections they seemed dangerously close to a second tenure of office > > thanks to the oprtunist realpolitiking by the regional parties and to > > the support of the upper caste dominated media." > > > > > > > > > -- > http://venukm.blogspot.com/ > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with subscribe in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> _________________________________________ reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. Critiques & Collaborations To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with subscribe in the subject header. To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> From kshmendra2005 at yahoo.com Tue Apr 21 19:20:04 2009 From: kshmendra2005 at yahoo.com (Kshmendra Kaul) Date: Tue, 21 Apr 2009 06:50:04 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Reader-list] Sri Ram Sene & Pakistani Journalists at IIC Seminar & Indian Media Reportage In-Reply-To: <1f9180970904210542q5b04baa2pbe329c5c90e9246e@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <681122.42355.qm@web57203.mail.re3.yahoo.com> Dear Venugopalan   It was already known from Indian Media reports that (to use your words)  "the sinister efforts of sri ram sene to disrupt the deliberations were buffed."   What I found interesting were Rahimullah Yusufzai's comments on the reportage by the (upper caste dominated) Indian Media.   Some excerpts:   - Within minutes, the Indian TV channels were flashing 'breaking news' about an attack by activists of the radical Hindu group, Sri Rama Sene, on Pakistani journalists at the IIC. Soon the news was picked up by the Pakistani TV channels and sections of the world media.   - Explaining the episode to concerned well-wishers wasn't easy because most of the media, as usual, had misreported the incident.   - Reporters not present at the IIC were getting bits of information from secondary sources and passing it on unverified to their news organisations.   - The end-product comprised half-truths. A Sri Rama Sene member being pushed out of the auditorium was identified as a Pakistani journalist and so on. - Contrary to the headlines, none of us was manhandled. In fact, we were sitting on the stage in the large auditorium of the IIC while the Sri Rama Sene members, their numbers ranging from four to 10 to 30 according to different accounts, were seated in the back and in no position to harm us.   Kshmendra --- On Tue, 4/21/09, Venugopalan K M wrote: From: Venugopalan K M Subject: Re: [Reader-list] Sri Ram Sene & Pakistani Journalists at IIC Seminar & Indian Media Reportage To: kshmendra2005 at yahoo.com Date: Tuesday, April 21, 2009, 6:12 PM Fine to hear that the sinister efforts of sri ram sene to disrupt the deliberations were buffed. On Tue, Apr 21, 2009 at 3:24 PM, Kshmendra Kaul wrote: Rahimullah Yusufzai, the author of the piece reproduced below was the first journalist to interview Osama Bin Ladin. He is very highly respected and especially as an expert analyst on Afghanistan and the NWFP (North West Frontier Province) and FATA (Federally Administered Tribal Areas) in Pakistan.   Kshmendra     "The good, the bad and the ugly"    Tuesday, April 21, 2009 By Rahimullah Yusufzai "Is media jingoism fanning Indo-Pak tensions?" was the topic of a panel discussion at the sprawling India International Centre (IIC) in New Delhi on April 15. Indian and Pakistani journalists, along with celebrated writer Arundhati Roy, were discussing the issue in a cordial and friendly atmosphere when a small group of Hindu extremists decided to disrupt the proceedings. This was the kind of intolerance that scribes from the two neighbouring countries were hoping to confront in the media and in society at large. But the media, particularly the electronic one, has its own dynamics. Within minutes, the Indian TV channels were flashing 'breaking news' about an attack by activists of the radical Hindu group, Sri Rama Sene, on Pakistani journalists at the IIC. Soon the news was picked up by the Pakistani TV channels and sections of the world media. Before long, worried family members and friends started calling me and the other three Pakistani journalists – Beena Sarwar, Saeed Minhas and Muniba Kamal -- attending the seminar. Explaining the episode to concerned well-wishers wasn't easy because most of the media, as usual, had misreported the incident. Reporters not present at the IIC were getting bits of information from secondary sources and passing it on unverified to their news organisations. The end-product comprised half-truths. A Sri Rama Sene member being pushed out of the auditorium was identified as a Pakistani journalist and so on. Contrary to the headlines, none of us was manhandled. In fact, we were sitting on the stage in the large auditorium of the IIC while the Sri Rama Sene members, their numbers ranging from four to 10 to 30 according to different accounts, were seated in the back and in no position to harm us. All they could do was to shout slogans like 'Pakistan Hai Hai' and 'Pakistan Murdabad' before the organisers and IIC security personnel threw them out of the auditorium. They had sneaked or forced their way into the hall because participation was by invitation and the invitees had to register themselves before entering the auditorium. The disruption caused was brief and the seminar proceeded as per schedule. The Sri Rama Sene activists were later pushed out of the IIC premises but none was detained by the over 50 policemen guarding the place. As happens so often in the Indo-Pak subcontinent, extra security was provided to us after the incident and cops were present in  strength at The Indian Express and The Hindustan Times offices that we subsequently visited. Members of the Sri Rama Sene, one of the several Hindu extremist groups that operate in India, failed to disrupt the Delhi seminar. Almost all those present at the packed IIC auditorium were Indians but none appeared to sympathise with the tactics used by the group. They wanted the panel discussion to continue and since I was speaking at the time, the organisers urged me to keep talking. It soon dawned on me that the Sri Rama Sene activists had started clapping in delight when I mentioned the kind of rabid anti-Pakistan articles and comments appearing in the Indian media following the November 26, 2008, Mumbai attacks. Some of the Indian writers and commentators had asked their government to attack and dismember Pakistan and end once and for all the source of terrorism directed against India. This had obviously delighted the handful of the uninvited Sri Rama Sene members in the auditorium and prompted them to do some clapping. However, they weren't  pleased when one referred to comments appearing in sections of the Pakistani media regarding joint Indo-US plans to harm Pakistan. The mention of strong anti-India comments in the Pakistani print and electronic media wasn't to their liking and they responded by shouting anti-Pakistan and pro-India slogans. The protest by the Sri Rama Sene activists was pre-planned. This was conceded by the group's national general secretary, Vinay Kumar Singh, who said they wanted the seminar to be wrapped up. Apart from the Pakistani journalists, their anger was also directed at writer Arundhati Roy, the author of the award-winning book, The God of Small Things. The diminutive young lady from Kerala has emerged as a conscientious social activist who is brave enough to take up the cause of the poor and the dispossessed. She has been speaking her mind against Hindu fundamentalists and the exploitative classes. She isn't afraid of talking about the need to resolve the Kashmir issue in keeping with the aspirations of the people of Jammu and Kashmir. This line of thinking is obviously unpopular in India. Even at the Delhi seminar at the IIC, she was the only speaker to make a mention of the unresolved Kashmir conflict. Indian colleagues said members of the Hindu extremist  groups often follow her at events that she is attending so that they could heckle and disrupt her speeches. India no doubt is a great democracy where there is freedom of speech but certain intolerant sections of the Indian society are threatening to silence those who think and speak differently. Despite the rising intolerance and threats, enlightened Indians continue their efforts to be heard and to let others, including Pakistanis, speak their mind. The panel discussion in Delhi was organised by a new organisation of dedicated journalists known as the Foundation of Media Professionals with collaboration from the Indian branch of the oldest German foundation, Friedrich Ebert Stiftung. Veteran journalist Madhur Trehan is president of the Foundation of Media Professionals which, in the past year, has held four events on diverse and important media-related issues. Anirudha Behl, Srinivasan and their colleagues in the media are determined to provide a platform to people with diverse opinions. The Sri Rama Sene people also have the right to be heard but one wished they had waited for the question-answer session after the presentations to put across their viewpoint and to put the speakers in the dock. True to their reputation, they showed intolerance just one day before India went to polls in an amazing democratic spectacle that has been rightly described as a miracle of democracy. Imagine 714 million voters taking part in the month-long, five-stage voting exercise that would end on May 13 and could be a logistics and security nightmare for even the most developed countries. India manages to regularly accomplish such a massive electoral exercise without fail. It is democracy that has kept India intact because its people, impoverished or otherwise, know that they could change their governments with the force of a ballot. And such is the power of the vote that even a Dalit woman, Mayawati, from the country's Untouchable Hindu caste could become  the chief minister of India's most populous state, Uttar Pradesh, and now aspire for the office of the prime minister. The Hindu extremist groups clamouring for Hindutva would do well to embrace tolerance so that India could continue to march on the path of secularism and democracy. The writer is resident editor of The News in Peshawar. Email: rahimyusufzai at yahoo.com http://www.thenews.com.pk/daily_detail.asp?id=173478     _________________________________________ reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. Critiques & Collaborations To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with subscribe in the subject header. To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list List archive: -- http://venukm.blogspot.com/ From indersalim at gmail.com Tue Apr 21 19:28:25 2009 From: indersalim at gmail.com (Inder Salim) Date: Tue, 21 Apr 2009 19:28:25 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] some thoughts around 'missing balls' by Prof. ShivJi Panikkar Message-ID: <47e122a70904210658v3582d745vd45507930c75f0e9@mail.gmail.com> Dear All Attached is Presentation Paper/ (To Be Re-Worked/Not to be Quoted) by Prof. Shivji Pankkkar of MS University Baroda, Gujarat, who was suspended by Narender Modi's Govt because he was the Art Teacher of a student of his faculty Mr. Chandermohan who was arrested by police for painting ( as they see it ) derogatory to some mythological characters. The case of Prof. Shivji and Mr. ChanderMohan has been discussed many times over, but this time he has added some more layers to his presentation , first at JNU , Arts and Aesthetic Department, and yesterday at a Penal Discussion at Lalit Kala Academy, under the banner Censorship in Art. i am quite eager to know what the active members of the list think about it. I have my own doubts, and fears about the present political scenario in India where 'freedom of expression' has been at receiving end, mostly because of political opportunism played by both Right and Left wing parties. The case is quite interesting, as Mr. Shivji has declared himself as Gay during his presentation, which i applauded from the depths of my heart, as no Art critic or Historian has dared to mix personal with political in our country. His Balls are intact, I assure you, please read and feel yourself. with love inder salim http://whathappenedtopleasure.blogspot.com/2009/04/what-happend-to-pleasure-by-shivji.html please click the blog to read since the pasting his text directly bounced back three four times, so this might work -- From c.anupam at gmail.com Tue Apr 21 20:56:22 2009 From: c.anupam at gmail.com (anupam chakravartty) Date: Tue, 21 Apr 2009 20:56:22 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Why do Schools and Colleges in India Kill? In-Reply-To: <977231.12402.qm@web57204.mail.re3.yahoo.com> References: <539E5D98-76EF-4A1F-B630-06A356F73001@sarai.net> <977231.12402.qm@web57204.mail.re3.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <341380d00904210826g590b7b66q8d181306f874e649@mail.gmail.com> Dear Kshmendra, We have this tendency to simplify things around us for better understanding of the issues. But what amazes me is the clarity with which one can simplify even the most complex issues. My understanding of ragging in colleges and corporal punishments in schools is somewhat different from yours in how you connect fiefdom and feudalism, colonial past and other such things with this one issue about schools and colleges and the kind of abuses that goes on. Feudalism and fiefdom may not be connected with what goes on in the schools and colleges at all. In colleges, instances of ragging related incidents started in the latter half of 1980s. If we say that it was feudalism and fiefdom that assumed modern avatars such as the one stated by you, then perhaps we are ignoring the fact that there were also phases, say from 1950s to 70s, when incidents of ragging or violence inflicted on students by teachers and seniors were not reported. There are two possibilities here: it could be that either these instances were not reported and kept under the wraps to avoid social stigma or because of the peer pressure or feudalism and fiefdom led to the birth of the reactionary politics in the colleges and schools. It is a scary thought, but if I were to jot down the instances that happened in the past in colleges especially it starts with groupism. A college hostel with a majority of students believing in one common idea would pounce on someone who is slightly different. I am sure majoritarianism especially encountered in colleges and schools are not the same thing as feudalism and fiefdom. In case of the schools, the condition of the teachers is worse. There are certain states in India, where teachers do not get for months. Moreover, there is no such incentive for being a teacher, till the person starts coaching classes or some other way of earning the money. However, it doesn’t mean that a teacher can hang the student. But frustrations stems from the teacher dealing with a large number of kids (as teacher-student ratio in several schools especially the government ones are skewed) in the class. Our schools (again I am not talking about elite schools) resemble hatcheries, which was not the case few decades back. In our sweeping generalisations, I just hope, we forget about these instances. Regards Anupam On 4/19/09, Kshmendra Kaul wrote: > > Dear Shuddha > > Allow me to share some simplistic thoughts on this. > > What we see reflected in such instances from educational institutions is > the feudalism and fiefdomism that is rooted in almost every aspect of our > lives in India. They are in myriad forms but still have all the > exploitative aspects that existed a few hundred years back. > > Feudalism became instutionalised and networked in India during the colonial > rule. It admirably served the purpose of both Rule and Revenue. > > Post 1947, attempts were made to erase out Agricultural Feudalism. There > was some success but it continued to some extent through the Benami system. > > At the same time Feudalism and Fiefdomism saw itself cloned and being > employed in various spheres and utilised for purposes of exercising control > or exacting monies outside legal domains. > > Educational Institutions are just one such area. > > Post 1947, the economic policies that allowed Private Enterprise but gave > them some protection against competition led in due course to Feudalism of > Business Houses. > > At the same time, the economic policies of Licence Raj created the > Feudalism of the Bureaucracy > > Ironically, the adoption of Free Market Economy policies in recent years, > without appropriate protection for small businesses has again resulted in > the Feudalism of Business Houses. > > While at one time 'workers' suffered exploitative employment, ensuring of > Labour Rights in some areas, predominantly Larger Industrial and other > enterprises saw the emergence of the Feudalism of the Workers. > > The Feudalism of the Police continued unchecked through the decades as did > that of the Revenue Officers. They were truly the soldiers of the > interconnected Feudal Empires. > > Interestingly, those who should have been the rebels against such Feudalism > themselves succumbed to it and we got the Feudalism of the Students. > > One could give other examples, but what is common to any such Feudalism and > Fiefdomism is the abuse of Rights, Authority and Power in the safe > assumption that India seriously lacks in Accountability and Environment for > Justice and Delivery of Justice. (Will not expand on that. I am sure it is > not needed) > > Senior students in an educational institution or the teaching faculty are a > part of similar feudal structures in their areas of operation and influence. > They find themselves because of their position, as being formally or > informally vested with, not only Rights but also Power and Authority which > they find easy to abuse in the absence of Accountability. > > My simplistic take. > > Kshmendra > > > > > --- On Sat, 4/18/09, Shuddhabrata Sengupta wrote: > > From: Shuddhabrata Sengupta > Subject: [Reader-list] Why do Schools and Colleges in India Kill? > To: "sarai list" > Date: Saturday, April 18, 2009, 12:39 AM > > Dear All, > > I find the incidence of deaths due to 'ragging' in educational > institutions in india and the recent death of a young girl, a student > of Class three, Shanno Khan, in a municipal school in Delhi caused by > the corporal punishment meted out to her by her teacher because she > could not tell the meaning of a word in English, totally shocking. > > Why is this murderous authoritarianism so prevalent in places of > education in India. Why do students and teachers behave like > executioners and impose so much violence on those weaker or smaller > or younger than them? > > What is it about the nature of education and pedagogy in our society > that makes it so conducive to producing little fascists and martinets? > > I hope this list can take some time to reflect on this. > > best > > Shuddha > > > > Shuddhabrata Sengupta > The Sarai Programme at CSDS > Raqs Media Collective > shuddha at sarai.net > www.sarai.net > www.raqsmediacollective.net > > > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > subscribe in > the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: > > > > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > subscribe in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: From c.anupam at gmail.com Tue Apr 21 21:07:53 2009 From: c.anupam at gmail.com (anupam chakravartty) Date: Tue, 21 Apr 2009 21:07:53 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Supreme Court deplores the leakage of SIT report Message-ID: <341380d00904210837v77de36b6l254d62ebf7da5610@mail.gmail.com> New Delhi: The leakage of the report by the Special Investigation Team on Gujarat riots of 2002 today evoked sharp reaction from the Supreme Court which deplored the disclosure of its content to the media as a "betrayal" of its trust. "Whosoever had given report of SIT (to media) has betrayed the trust and faith of this court. We disapprove it and deplore it," a three-judge Bench headed by Arijit Pasayat said when the issue of leakage of SIT report was raised before it. The apex court was furious that the report of SIT, which was submitted to it in a sealed cover and made available only to Gujarat government and amicus curaie Harish Salve, was made public. "If anyone has given the report to somebody, we do not approve the conduct. It is a grossly irresponsible act and we feel ashamed," the Bench said before reserving its order on the setting up of designated courts to try riot cases and laying down modalities for providing protection to witnesses during the trial of the cases. Senior advocate Indira Jaising, appearing for some of the victims, accused the Gujarat Government counsel and senior advocate Mukul Rohatgi of divulging the content of the SIT report to the electronic media, a charge he refuted. "I am entitled to speak to television channel," Rohatgi said when Jaising complained to the Bench that the Gujarat government counsel was speaking to TV channels on the SIT report. From pawan.durani at gmail.com Tue Apr 21 21:16:33 2009 From: pawan.durani at gmail.com (Pawan Durani) Date: Tue, 21 Apr 2009 21:16:33 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Leftists Train Cameraman to make bombs Message-ID: <6b79f1a70904210846w5dbd5f0byc90f48c19be40bf1@mail.gmail.com> "The police said Sinu learnt the technique of making petrol bombs from a Left Front student activist while covering various agitations in the city." http://keralaonline.com/news/arson-attack-accused-chennai_34449.html Thiruvananthapuram, Monday 20 April 2009: A police team from the city has left for Chennai with Sinu, alias Siraj Murukumpuzha, a 32-year-old news cameraman who was recently arrested in connection with the arson attack on the house of suspended Assistant Commissioner of Police S. Sanal Kumar in February, as part of investigation into the incident. The police had arrested him last week from Chennai, where he was working for a news channel. Their case is that Sinu torched Mr. Sanal Kumar’s car and lobbed petrol bombs into the latter’s house to exact revenge for arraigning him as accused in a case relating to the kidnap of alleged financial fraudster Sabarinath. The attack occurred early on February 25, 2009, a few days after Mr. Sanal Kumar was suspended from service, pending inquiry, for alleged supervisory lapse in a case relating to an attack on airport security personnel by two drunken passengers. Investigators said Sinu, who was absconding after being charged with the kidnap of Sabarinath, had seen Mr. Sanal’s suspension as an opportunity to harm him. The police said Sinu’s brother-in-law Sooraj; his close friends and video editors of different news channels, N. Hari Kumar and Hari G. Nair helped him carry out the attack. Hari Kumar surrendered before a court in Chenkottai in Tamil Nadu last week and is in judicial remand in Palayamkottai prison in Tirunelveli district. The city police have sought his custody. The police have charged Sinu’s wife, Surabhi, among others, of plotting the crime. The police also filed an affidavit in the High Court on Friday opposing Surabhi’s plea for anticipatory bail. The police said Sinu learnt the technique of making petrol bombs from a Left Front student activist while covering various agitations in the city. They said he made the bombs and posters lampooning Mr. Sanal Kumar, a few of which were found stuck on the walls of other houses in his neighbourhood at Pothujanam Lane, near Kumarapuram. Investigators said they were trying to recover the laptop computer in which the posters were designed. They were also trying to identify those who harboured Sinu in Chennai after the police proclaimed him a wanted man. The police said Sinu used his car and his wife’s scooter for the act. Hari Kumar waited in the car while Sinu and Sooraj carried out the attack. After committing the crime, the accused slept on the terrace of Surabhi’s house in the same locality. Hari G. Nair harboured Sinu for few some days after which he left for Chennai and stayed in an apartment owned by one of Hari Kumar’s close relatives, the investigators said. They said Surabhi’s parents had given conflicting statements about Sinu’s presence in the house when questioned separately. His father admitted that he was present there on the night of the attack while Surabhi’s mother said she had not seen her son-in-law in months, they said. From pawan.durani at gmail.com Tue Apr 21 21:21:48 2009 From: pawan.durani at gmail.com (Pawan Durani) Date: Tue, 21 Apr 2009 21:21:48 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Lalleshwari and Kundalini Yoga Message-ID: <6b79f1a70904210851o3fc32397we32943917614f3e5@mail.gmail.com> *Lalleshuri and Kundalini Yoga* * * *By: Jawahar Lal Bhat* Lalleshuri [ lalleshwari ]followed Trikka or Kashmir Shaivism which adopts Laya Yoga popularly known as Kundalini Yoga in Kashmir in her spiritual advancement and liberation. In her immortal poetic compositions (Vaakhs) besides laying down a moral code she has prescribed definite regulations for the realization of the divine in ones own being. In order to understand the Vaakhs of Lalla one has to be acquainted with the Kundalini Shakti and its importance in the awakening of human spirit in accordance with Kashmir Shaivism. Kundalini is believed to be a source of infinite energy (Shakti) in the form of a coiled serpent seated at the lower end of the spinal cord around the genital part of the human body (Swayambu). The energy is aroused and brought up to the crown of the head, the highest seat of cosmic energy centre (Sahasrara) considered the abode of Lord Shiva, through deep concentration of mind, mantras and yogic exercises especially Pranayama. According to this Yoga there are six Chakras (Muladhara, Svadhishthana, Manipura, Anahata, Visudha, and Ajna) or centers of cosmic power in the human body. The Kundalini Shakti, when aroused travels up through these chakras and reaches finally to Sahasrar Chakra which is located at crown of the head inside the brain where it becomes one with Lord Shiva, the ultimate goal of all spiritual seekers and a source of unlimited joy and achievement. According to Kashmir Shaiva Philosophy Lord Shiva is the principal deity controlling the universe. The lord has two aspects, Shiva and Shakti though the two are the same, the two sides of a coin. Man's spiritual goal is to establish identity of the two in his own being. Since man is unable to control the waywardness of the mind and shed the shackles of worldly attachments and thus goes on living many lives without performing the actual purpose of life. The unnerving task here is to experience the truth of life and get detached from the glamour of actual life and virtually die before death to the worldly attractions. Laya Yoga or the awakening of Kundalini is a way of attaining this goal. The wavering mind is controlled by concentrating on a vital energy centered in the body called Susmna Nadi and thus the uneven movement of Prana and Apana is brought to uniformity by the practice of breath control (Pranayama). The Susmna nadi extends from the Muladhara right up to Sahasrara in the crown of the head along the spinal cord. It is through this subtle mystical corridor that Kundalini Sakhti rises upwards to meet her consort Shiva in that thousand-petalled lotus of Sahasrara. Within these two extremes are six centres of energy called chakras or lotuses as indicated above. There are also two other Nadis running parallel to the Susmna. These are Ida and Pingla. Prana flows through Ida while apana flows through Pigla. The inhalation and exhalation of breath are kept in perfect balance through the practice of yoga. All the Nadis join at the two eyebrows' junction called Triveni, symbolic confluence of Ganga, Jamuna and Saraswati. The Kundalini Shakti which normally lies dormant is awakened by yogic exercises and it cuts its way through the six chakras to meet her consort Shiva in Sahasrara. Prana goes upwards while Apana downwards. To attain this spiritual goal, man has to control five Pranas, ten Indriyas and their controller, the wavering mind. This is done through Abhyas or Yoga practice. It is here that the seeker enjoys the taste of the Amrit flowing from Shashkala or the digit of the moon. Lalleshuri (Lalded) has described her personal achievement of arousing Kundalini and enjoying the overflowing Shashkala in the following Vaakh: * * *Shie van chaetith shashkal wuzem, Prakrath henzem pawnie seitee, * *Loleki narie wanlij buzem, Shankar lobum tami sietee.* Lalleshuri reached her desired goal and enjoyed the nectar trickled from Shashkala after she crossed the rugged path of six forests indicating the six Chakras as mentioned above. She says it was the result of her heart stirring devotion, deep concentration, sustained breath exercise and bringing under control all worldly desires and senses that she reached her goal. She says precisely, "The whole world shrunk for me in the inhalation and exhalation of my breath and while I roasted my heart in the heat of the love of my Lord, I found Him." By the concentration of mind mental fluctuations, false knowledge, all kinds of illusions and conditions analogous to sleep are brought under control, a stage in which the soul sours beyond the three Gunas: Satva, Rajas and Tamas. *Tsitta-twaruge vagi hyath ro'ttum, Tseylith milavith dashinaaddi vaav,* *Tavay sheyshikal veyglith vatsham, Shuunyas shuunyaah miilith gav.* Lalleshuri says she reined in the fast running steed of her mind, i.e. controlled the overpowering senses and by constant practice and meditation succeeded in bringing the proper alignment of wavering Prana through Nadis till she achieved the final goal of guiding the Kundalini Shakti to its destination, the crown of the head. It's here that she enjoyed the nectar of the mystic moon (Sheshkal) which came overflowing upon her whole body and the void merged with the cosmic void i.e. she became immortal and an integral part of the supreme soul which is the ultimate perfection of the individual soul to become one with the cosmic soul or Parmatama. Lalleshuri gives a lucid description of her mystic experience in her poetic compositions which goes to her credit as besides a highly accomplished Yogini she was a celestial poet with a definite mission of not only achieving her own liberation but also setting a precept for the coming generations to follow. *Lall bo chayas suman baghe baras, Wuchum shivas shakti meelith te wah* *Tati lai karem tath amrit saras, Zinday maras mai kaream kyah. * * * Lalleshuri describes her extreme ecstasy upon her realization of the ultimate reality and says that she entered the garden of beautiful flowers indicating the abode of Shiva on the crown of her head. There she saw Shiva and Shakti mingled into one, the most coveted stage of all Yogis and the final stage of Kundalini Jagran. She enjoys the scene, takes deep into the lake of overflowing divine nectar and becomes eternal, one with the supreme. She achieved this all by experiencing virtual death to worldly desires before the actual death. This is a stage for the saints of high order to be quite unconcerned about their body and its needs as the purpose of body for them is over as they've become one with the absolute. So for Lalla also the purpose of the existence of her mortal frame has finished having achieved its eternal purpose of merging with the ultimate truth i.e. Lord Shiva, so she claims to be dead though living in the eyes of the people outside. She's absorbed completely with her lord and has little care about her body needs. *Dokh chen traivith mokh wuch haras, Taile dezei parma saras manz thah* *Chal zanun chuey naar bhava saras, chukh zan kad tul shah maaras baal.* Lalleshuri calls the Kundalini Shakti seated in the form of a serpent at the base of the spinal cord a Shah-Maar (Royal Serpent) the source of unlimited energy and liable to be awakened and made to travel upward by sustained devotion. She calls upon the devotee to lift the massive lid, allegorically a big mountain off the container of the Shah-Maar (the dormant Kundalini Shakti) i.e. awaken it by the power of devotion and controlling all the worldly desires and body pleasures as these are the worst enemies of all devotion and development in the path of spiritual advancement. Lalla calls upon the seeker to shun all worldly fears and surrender completely to the wishes of the Lord and dive deep into the celestial waters of His blessings present at the crown of head, the abode of the lord. *Lalli Guer bramande pethe kane vuchum, Sheshkal vaechem paadan taney* *Gyaneke amrite prakrath barem, loobey morum ande wand taney. * * * On her ultimate achievement of establishing Shiva and Shakti in her own being through arousing the Kundalini Shakti and bringing up to the crown of her head Lalleshuri was astonished to see her master (Guru) seated on the top of her head while the overflowing Sheshkal had flooded her whole body till it had reached her feet which indicates that she was filled with the divine nectar or Amrit or in other words she had got awakened fully about all the secrets of the universe and everything had unfolded clearly before her and nothing had remained unachieved for her holy person. She had naturally shed all the worldly desires especially the ego, which is the worst enemy in the path of spiritual development. It also indicates the fact that the Guru is the ultimate lord for all purposes for a seeker and there remains no need to approach anything else for development whatsoever except the spiritual master. *Pranas saety lai yali karem, Dyanas thavnam ne roznas shaai* *Kayas andar soruy vuchum, Payas povum te kaedmas graai* Lalleshuri describes her personal experience after she had reached the highest stages of her awakening. She virtually lost all the consciousness of her personal self by experiencing all the contours of the cosmos in her own person. She got clear awakening of all the divine secrets and there remained nothing unrealized for her. Here she again indicates to her ultimate divine realization through the practice of Pranayama and the subsequent awakening of Kundalini Sakhti to its highest stage which opens all the doors of awakening for the seeker. Lalleshuri says there remained no need to go in for any further meditation or Sadhna as she had experienced all her soul's content in her own body temple after washing her body in the celestial waters of the overflowing Shashkala from the crown of her head. *Pawan te praan somuy dyuthum, Meelith roodum sheri khor taaen* *Dhih yali mothum adhe kyah motum, Na kuni pavan tay na kuni praan.* On achieving higher concentration in meditation the seeker does not find any difference between the normal respiration and the practice of Pranayama as the normal respiration becomes such a controlled process that the body does not require any normal breathing as with the impact of the meditative process almost all the normal functions of the body cease to be and the whole system is controlled by a higher regulation. This is a stage when the whole body is reduced to nothingness and the head and the feet virtually club into one. When the existence of the body is reduced to a naught with the impact of the full awakening there is no inhalation or exhalation of breath as the self has lost its individual identity having merged fully with the supreme. * * * * *Jawahar Lal Bhat* *B-3 Ashiana Apartments, Sector-46, Faridabad (Haryana)* *Email- bhatjl1 at gmail.com* *************************************** __._,_.___ ************************************************** Disclaimer: Views and opinions expressed herein are solely those of the persons posting the mail and not of the Owner/Moderator of this YahooGroup. Members of this group continue to remain members of this group of their own will. Anyone who wishes to unsubscribe from this group can do so by sending an email to KPNetwork-unsubscribe at yahoogroups.com email id. ************************************************** Websites : http://iKashmir.net : http://www.kashmiri-pandit.org : http://PanunKashmir.org Symbol Links : http://www.geocities.com/sopori/kashmir.html : http://www.geocities.com/sopori/index.html Postings : KPNetwork at yahoogroups.com Unsubscriptions: KPNetwork-unsubscribe at yahoogroups.com Other queries : KPNetwork-owner at yahoogroups.com Group URL : http://groups.yahoo.com/group/KPNetwork ************************************************** Your email settings: Individual Email|Traditional Change settings via the Web(Yahoo! ID required) Change settings via email: Switch delivery to Daily Digest| Switch to Fully Featured Visit Your Group | Yahoo! Groups Terms of Use | Unsubscribe __,_._,___ From sub_sengupta at yahoo.co.in Tue Apr 21 22:50:51 2009 From: sub_sengupta at yahoo.co.in (subhrodip sengupta) Date: Tue, 21 Apr 2009 22:50:51 +0530 (IST) Subject: [Reader-list] =?utf-8?q?=28no_subject=29?= Message-ID: <274320.9344.qm@web94701.mail.in2.yahoo.com> A n b is same as saying not a implies b. What was written earlier was wrong usage of existental operator in strict sense which belongs to conditional logic. But it meant two things might be different so be clear one doesnt imply another so contradictionis need to be justified. Fits in pretty, seems nobody bothers to read. From Chandigarh to Chennai - find friends all over India. Go to http://in.promos.yahoo.com/groups/citygroups/ From kmvenuannur at gmail.com Wed Apr 22 00:56:52 2009 From: kmvenuannur at gmail.com (Venugopalan K M) Date: Wed, 22 Apr 2009 00:56:52 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] The 'upper caste dominated' Media In-Reply-To: <955756.64389.qm@web57205.mail.re3.yahoo.com> References: <1f9180970904210216k7491c131pa7ee18e807d8f5d3@mail.gmail.com> <955756.64389.qm@web57205.mail.re3.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <1f9180970904211226u17eb7922nb318aa841d9e4802@mail.gmail.com> Dear Kshmendra, I must now admit that I should not have linked that aspect of upper caste domination in media *directly* to the politics of Hindutva. These two happened to be mixed up in my earlier post as though they were same things. Nevertheless,the post-2004 elections scenario generally anticipated and propagated by a media dominated by the upper castes was one in which the NDA led by the BJP would come close to majority or at least the combine would emerge as the biggest single block."India Shining "and such hypes were indeed tried out by the media, apart from propagating opinion poles which conceded considerable prospects to the NDA over others. In fact, they neither considered the Left parties nor the BSP as anywhere in the fray.This continues even today as the accepted pattern of reporting of the so called National mediausual practice of the of these media. I have seen scores of blogs these days that dream the fantastic return of BJP; these blogs are apparently creations of a section of the upper middle class largely emanating from the (privileged) upper castes who lament the overall deterioration of politics and at the same time vociferously argue for more and more draconian, anti people measures to maintain the status quo of system of privileges.Their single handed pursuits of combating terrorism often match well with the neo-liberal economic agenda characterized by militaristic solutions to political conflicts.Ever increasing spendings for defence ,nuclearization and escalation of conflicts with neighboring states and such things often obscure the burning issues of farming crises, unemployment, price-rise , remarkable decline in the total outputs of wealth, increasing disparity in incomes, giving away of the public assets to the corporates for a song, etc,etc. I hope that I have made my point clear; thank you. Regards, Venu. On Tue, Apr 21, 2009 at 4:03 PM, Kshmendra Kaul wrote: > > Dear Venugopalan > > You made a statement, on which I requested clarifaction. Answering my question with a question hardly helps. I might or might not agree with your statement and I might or might not agree with it's converse. The explanation is yours to give if you choose to. > > I appreciate your saying that " my understanding in terms of exactly which castes are running the show is limited" > > You have also clarified that "I said only that it is dominated by the upper caste hindus both in terms of ownership as well as control." > > That is not what you said earlier. > > What you had conveyed was that because of "the support of the upper caste dominated media." in 2004 the 'band of nationalists' who subscribe to a 'form of cultural nationalism' which is 'rooted in the ideology of Brahmanical Hindutwa' seemed to be dangerously close to a second tenure in office. > > Your statement was not about "ownership' or "control' but about "support". But, let that be. > > Whatever the 'ownership' and whatever the 'control', are you saying the Indian Media judging by it's News Reporting and excercise of other Editorial/Ownership controls shows an "upper caste dominated" bias that translates into (or led in 2004 to) "support" for """"" 'band of nationalists' who subscribe to a 'form of cultural nationalism' which is 'rooted in the ideology of Brahmanical Hindutwa' """"" ? > > Kshmendra > > --- On Tue, 4/21/09, Venugopalan K M wrote: > > From: Venugopalan K M > Subject: Re: [Reader-list] The 'upper caste dominated' Media > To: "sarai-list" > Date: Tuesday, April 21, 2009, 2:46 PM > > Dear Kshamendra, > I would ask you to tell me which is not dominated by the upper caste ; > perhaps that would be much easier,though my understanding in terms of > exactly which castes are running the show is limited..I said only that it is > dominated by the upper caste hindus both in terms of ownership as well as > control.I am very open to be criticized and got corrected. > Thanks, > Venu > > On 4/21/09, Kshmendra Kaul wrote: > > > > Dear Venugopalan > > > > You have written that in 2004 the 'band of nationalists' who > subscribe to a > > 'form of cultural nationalism' which is 'rooted in the > ideology of > > Brahmanical Hindutwa' seemed to be dangerously close to a second > tenure in > > office thanks to (amongst others factors) "the support of the upper > caste > > dominated media." > > > > I would like to understand: > > > > - Which is this Media which is 'upper caste dominated' that > commands such > > an influence? > > > > - How does one reach the conclusion that it is 'upper caste > dominated'? > > > > Kshmendra > > > > > > > > --- On *Tue, 4/21/09, Venugopalan K M * > wrote: > > > > "In short, I would say that there indeed exists a concept of > 'Muslim > > voter' in India, notwithstanding that individual voters might > > challenge this blanket concept in a particular context and would > > endorse the same in another context. In my view, there is nothing > > reprehensible in acting in this manner, when we take into > > considerations the imperatives of grave challenges to the very > > existence of divergent faiths in India which is actually rooted in the > > ideology of Brahmanical Hindutwa. This is the most deplorable form of > > cultural nationalism, which likes to ground the very idea of > > citizenship in it. Even the Indian constitution is anathema to this > > band of nationalists,who fortunately did not enjoy the mandate of more > > than a fifth of all Indian voters even in their best days! In the 2004 > > elections they seemed dangerously close to a second tenure of office > > thanks to the oprtunist realpolitiking by the regional parties and to > > the support of the upper caste dominated media." > > > > > > > > > -- > http://venukm.blogspot.com/ > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with subscribe in > the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> -- http://venukm.blogspot.com/ From 2tahamehmood at googlemail.com Wed Apr 22 02:33:59 2009 From: 2tahamehmood at googlemail.com (Taha Mehmood) Date: Tue, 21 Apr 2009 22:03:59 +0100 Subject: [Reader-list] Qamar Rabbani Chechi: a portrait of typical 'Indian Muslim' Message-ID: <65be9bf40904211403l1cf36447mb4071b6fe4ff6bce@mail.gmail.com> Dear All. It is not surprising to find that mainstream media is only remotely interested in Qamar Rabbani Chechi's electoral battle, maybe except of a lone blog post by our own Shivam at Kafila, there is no other write up which looks at the Chechi phenomena critically. It appears, that media first propagates a stereotype about these mythical 'Indian Muslims' and then buys into it own propaganda. I want to briefly analyse how media constructs this man, Chechi', who falls outside the purview of filter and compare it with someone, like say, Abdul Nasser Madani, who, like Chechi, is also trying to mobilise political power on caste lines. Lets look at Qamar Rabbani Chechi. A google search for Qamar Rabbani Chechi's name yields 108 entries. Lets now look at how big players in mass media represents him. 1. CNN-IBN. A Kashmiri Gujjar. ( http://ibnlive.in.com/news/kashmiri-gujjar-makes-dausa-poll-contest-interesting/89912-37.html) 2. The Hindu- Kashmiri Gujjar leader ( http://www.thehindu.com/2009/04/21/stories/2009042157330500.htm ) 3. The Times of India- a Kashmiri Gujjar ( http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/articleshow/4294790.cms ) On the other hand a google search for Abdul Nasser Madani yields 12,700 entries. So Madani's presence is magnified by 11759% over Chechi's. Whereas CNN-IBN dubs Madani as The fiery preacher while other media sources characterize him as 'A Jihadi preacher', 'An Islamist' and so on. The dilemma for me is this- why does the media choose not to portray Qamar Rabbani Chechi as an Indian who happens to be a Muslim? Why is it that only his caste is highlighted in the primary description? and why is it that in case of a person like Madani who is running a wider coalition of Dalits and other lower caste Hindus, the portrayal is restricted to an overarching banner of 'Islamist' only and why there are no mention of his caste, sub-regional or sub religious identity? When, it appears, as if, Madani too like Chechi is responding to and trying to mobilise people belonging to various localised castes for political power. Madani like Chechi are small regional players. They have very niche spatial influence. Yet they get portrayed differently. Chechi the archetypal 'Good Muslim' gets limited presence while Madani the archetypal 'Bad Muslim' gets wider coverage. Bad news sells! Chechi's coverage makes his representation individualistic and caste based thus alienating and localized while Madani's representation make all Indians who happen to be Muslims uneasy and answerable to this phenomena. While in case of Chechi the question of caste identity is explored clearly. That he is a Kashmiri Gujar is clearly known to all. While in case of Madani it is not know to us, as to what brand of Islam he follows and why? We do not know who was 'influential Maulvi', he listening to when he was growing up? What made him change his name, an intrinsic part of one's identity from Abdul Manaf Nazir to Abdul Nasser Madani? We do not know who was he reading? His brand of Islam, is represented as a homogeneous and overarching, I wonder, why? Who are these input and output editors at major news papers and electronic news channels and why do they choose to have a filter on in one case and off in another? In case of television I can understand that by its very nature it simplifies things. It needs audio and visual. A sound byte. Some drama. Clear identifiable characters. A hero. An anti hero and so on. But still, I wonder how do these editorial filters work? And can it justify such a portrayal? With warm regards Taha From pawan.durani at gmail.com Wed Apr 22 08:43:05 2009 From: pawan.durani at gmail.com (Pawan Durani) Date: Wed, 22 Apr 2009 08:43:05 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] The Concept of Sunya Message-ID: <6b79f1a70904212013x5fad87fege230505fdff19d60@mail.gmail.com> *PHILOSOPHY* The Concept of Sunya From Buddhism to Kashmir Shaivism to Lalla Ded By Prof. M.L. Koul *All* credible evidences from the annals of Kashmir history establish that Kashmir was a pivotal centre of Buddhist thought and learning. To counter the narrow philosophical positions of Hinyana Buddhism it was in Kashmirthat the doctrinal positions and theoretical mould of the Mahayana Buddhism were formulated and shaped out. A galaxy of Buddhist scholars of great eminence who were Kashmiri in their origins or had settled in Kashmir from other parts of India contributed their speculative faculties to the enunciation of the contours of Mahayana Buddhism and enriched its thought-content by shaping out its structures. All concerted efforts were made to disseminate the thought to a number of countries beyond the margins of the native country. The Mahayana thought in its debate of Reality, Soul and Human destiny had marked features of synonymity with the mainstream thought of India. Mahayana thought over a period of time branched off into two thought divisions of Madhyamik and Vijnanvad. In the pages of Buddhist thought Madhyamik is also designated as Sunyvad because of its core philosophy about sunya. Nagarjun, a great celebrity in the realms of Buddhist thought, founded the Madhyamik school through his work named as 'Madhyamik-Karika. In his seminal work Nagarjun rejects the idea of an object existing or not-existing permanently or temporarily. He as a way out sought for a mean or middle-path. Being an expert dialectician he searched for causes for things that were existing. His postulations were startling as the world for him did not exist and was nothing but void, and emptiness. Things that exist are inherently lacking in substance. Anything that depends on a cause to exist has no existence and reality of its own. In the words of stcherbabsky, "A dependent existence has no existence, just as borrowed money is no real wealth." The mainstream Indian philosophical thought was wary to accept the stipulations of Nagarjun and characterised it as a philosophy of voidism or nihilism. All affirmative schools of thought put the thesis of Nagarjun to a scathing criticism and dismissed it as destructive. It was Dr. T.R.V. Murti who in his highly acclaimed work, Buddhism, gave a new orientation to the very concept of Sunya as propounded by Nagarjun. He forcefully argued against those scholars who had interpreted sunya as voidism, emptiness or sheer nihilism. As per Dr. Murti, Nagarjun never thought of sunya as voidism, emptiness or nihilism. He places Nagarjun's sunya atpar with Brahman in Vedanta, or Vijnan in Vijnavad. Sunya, to him, is a metaphysical reality or a metaphysical concept. As Madhyamik is an absolutism, Dr. Murti calls sunya its metaphysical reality. Dr. Murti maintains that sunya is a being that lies behind the world of relativity and conditioned existence. As a metaphysical being it is neither relative nor conditioned. He further states that world is sunya because it is relative and has no independent existence of its own. 'Sunyata' is another concept that is popular with the voidists. The critics of voidism understand it in the sense of negation. But, it, in fact, means negation of all views and even its own view. Despite the wide-spread range of Buddhism in Kashmir, the popularity of Shiva's worship and many broad conceptualisations about popular religion never ceased to be. Being the most tolerant religion of the world religions, Buddhism was never in conflict with other forms of religions and their variegated methodologies of worship. Though a popular creed in Kashmir, Buddhism with its non-soul doctrine and sunya-like nihilistic conceptions failed to appeal to the spiritual impulse of Kashmir. The result was the churning of an affirmative strand of thought that evolved as a reaction to the formulations of the Buddhist thinkers. With Shiva as its core concept the new thought drew upon the philosophies of Sankya, Vaishnavism and Buddhism to weave its own harmonised pattern planked on non-dual structures. As a monistic absolutism it re-cycled old metaphysical and epistemological issues and evolved new approach and premis to yarn its world-view logically and coherently. Sunya as a vital Buddhist concept was appropriated, and was oriented in a manner that appeared absolutely at variance with its original Buddhist trappings and semantics. The non-dual thinkers wedded to Shaivism put the Buddhist thesis of sunya to a thorough and incisive debate in all its ramifications. What emerges from the contours of their debate is that sunya as a metaphysical concept can be acceptable and accorded the same position that Brahman in Vedanta has. They appear to have no serious objections to place sunya even at par with Vijnan in Vijnanvad. But, they have far-reaching reservations to treat sunya at par with the metaphysical Reality of Shiva who has the pre-eminent attribute of 'Swatantrya', which is perfect freedom to act and know. Because of the attribute of 'Swantantrya', Shiva is 'Chaitanya' and sunya is lacking in this essential attribute. So, they evaluate sunya as a lower level of reality which they are unable to accept as the absolute Reality that Shiva encompasses. The Shaiva thinkers seriously object to the voidist position of rejecting the world as emptiness or void. The world, to them, is neither insubstantial nor momentary. In their thought-model Shiva pre-exists as a being and Shakti is His becoming and their unicity is the absolute reality. If Shiva is real, so is His Shakti. As per logic, that what is real will generate or emanate real. Real generating or emanating unreal is logically preposterous. The Shaiva thinkers are loud in their assertion that world and objects in the world are real as they are one with the light of consciousness. If they were not to appear or illumine in the light of consciousness, they would not exist at all. The non-dual shaivites are unanimous is rejecting the Buddhist thesis of monetariness as it reduces all manner of experiences, fleeting and abiding, to mere nothingness. As emphasised by them, the concept of momentariness dismisses all possibilities of making judgments and establishing contact through expression and communication. In the annals of philosophy it is well-known that no new thought is totally new. What appears as new has ideas, concepts and stipulations from that what is dismissed as old and jaded. The non-dual thesis of Kashmir Shaivism as already mentioned has strands from Shaiva Siddhant of South of India, Sahajyani Buddhism, Sankhya and varied philosophies of Vaihsnavism. Sunya as a concept has been incorporated from Buddhism, especially its variant called Madhyamik. The Shaivite thinkers have modified sunya to reinforce and strengthen their own philosophical positions and fundamental thesis of monism. The Buddhist meanings and trappings of sunya have been totally discarded and given a new orientation in sync with the core philosophy of non-dual Shaivims. The very definition of sunya has been altered as '*shunyam ashunaym iti ukhtam* which in translation means 'shunya is said to be ashunya'. It is not an inexplicable riddle. The definition makes it clear that sunya is not void or emptiness. What we call sunya does contain something lying in a state of total mergence. The Shaivites translate sunya as 'abhava', which when broken up becomes 'a + bhava' meaning Shiva and world or objects lying in His consciousness. Sunya, to them, is in no case or condition as what the Buddhists call void or emptiness. Sunya is what the Shaivites call 'sad-bhava' which marks the presence of world or objects, but in a state of total mergence. The following verse explains the Shaivite position on sunya:- *ashunaym shunyam iti ukhtam, shunyat abhava uchyate,* *abhava satu vigyeyo yatra bhava layam gata* It conveys that sunya is asunya, not the condition of sunya, void or emptiness. Sunya means abhava (in translation), which again means a state in which objects (bhavas) lie in a condition of absolute mergence (in Shiva's consciousness supreme, the objects are there, but not in their name and form, but in a state of absolute dilution indistinguishable from Shiva's consciousness supreme also called 'maha-vyom'. *Sunya in the vakhs of Lalla Ded* Lalla Ded had a strong theoretical knowledge of the tenets of non-dual Shaiva philosophy of Kashmir. She was fortunate enough to have a preceptor (guru) like Sidda Srikanth, popularly known as Syada mol, who happened to be in the line of the tradition of Shaiva acharyas. Besides theoretical studies Lalla Ded as demanded by the thought itself was initiated in the Shaiva praxis by the same preceptor. As her mystical experiences reveal she was put on the path of higher ascension and had to achieve Sivahood through the Shaiva-yoga which her venerated preceptor had introduced to her dose by dose, step by step. As Lalla Ded was a Shaiva practitioner she happened to experience some such states where she felt that she neither belonged to the world of objects nor had the spiritual flashes that would have satiated her yearnings of attaining identity with Shiva. Such of her conditions are termed as sunya which every initiate has to experience while working out Shaiva praxis under the guidance of a Shiva-guru, a realised soul. After rummaging all the available verions of Lala Ded's vaakhs I was able to find out seven vaakhs in which Lalla Ded has made an explicit mention of sunya, a state she had to experience before achieving the state of self-recognition. She was an ardent follower of the Shaiva precept of 'Shivo Bhutwa Shivam Yajet'. Lalla Ded ardently worked out the Shaiva Yoga, the practices prescribed in it. A situation emerged when the external world appeared to get absorbed in her own self and the imbalance between subject and object appeared to disappear and all got merged into sunya (void). It is a stage in her spiritual evolution and not the situation in which she finally attained Sivahood. She even ascended the state of sunya when she had felt that the world of name and form had risen to absorption. What was left was the state of anamaya which in Shaiva parlence means the condition of supremacy of the luminosity of consciousness supreme carrying the stir (spand) to create and absorb. The experience intensely felt by Lalla Ded has been grippingly conveyed in the vaakh: *‘abhyas savikas layi wothu* *gaganas saghun myul samistrata!* *Sunya gol ta anamaya motu* *yuhuy wopadesh chuy bata !!*** Being aware of the entire upanishadic ouvre of literature Lalla Ded has woven a superb allegory to explain the three functions of Param Shiva who creates, maintains and assimilates the universe. For the purpose she mentions Shiva who is the horse, Keshav who is the saddle and Brahma who is the sitrrups. The horse in the allegory is the 'trigunatmac horse' and Param Shiva alone having the attributes of 'anahat, kha swaroop, shunyalai’ is capable of riding it. Anahat, Kha-Swaroop, Shunyalai, aham-vimarsa and nada-binda have philosophical meanings and need be studied in the light of the thought Lalla Ded was thoroughly cultivated by her preceptor. As per the Shaiva texts Bindu is the undifferentiated, luminous and eternal consciousness supreme. Nada is the Shakti, the potency to manifest what lies in the Bindu. Bindu expands from Chitta-kala to anand-shakti, Iccha Shakti, Jnan Shakti and Kriya Shakti. Many unrelated meanings have been attributed to anahat. What Lalla Ded means by anahat is related to Bindu and Nada. Anahat is 'pranav', Om, an unhindered and eternal sound, which is Bindu when in a state of unity with Param Shiva and Nada when in outward expansion. Kha-swaroop and shunyalai are the attributes of Param Shiva who is beyond time and space and is the abode of sunya which means that in the consciousness of Shiva the world of objects lies in a state of total mergence. *Lalla Ded conveyes:* *Anahat Kha-Swaroop, Sunyalai* *Aham-Vimarsa Nada Byand Yas Von* As a Shaiva practitioner Lalla Ded merged her two breaths, pran and apan, into the Sushmana-nadi, also known as madhyanadi, which is considered as having a sunya like condition. She realised that the outward world had ceased to be for her and the state of duality was not a reality. In this psychic condition of having broken with the outward world she experienced a new state of having lost her not-self, which till then was under the delusion of taking it as her real self. With his experience as her sheet anchor she felt that the lotus of self-luminosity was about to enfold and bloom. The following* *vaakh conveys the same felt-experience:- *Sunyuk madan kodum panas* *mea Lalli roozam na bodh na hosh* *Vazay sapnis panai panas* *ada kami hili phol Lalli pamposh !!* Kashmir thought of Shaiva non-dual is a philosophy of positive affirmation and has in no uncertain terms rejected all forms of asceticism. Lalla as evidenced by her vaakhs has lived a life of high moral values in which avaricious greed, lust and insatiable eating have no place. Greed, lust and indiscriminate indulgence in pleasures of eating signify attachment of an individual to the things that he takes for his real self. That is why Lalla says that vain imaginings are to be abandoned and petty desires are to be slain. It never means that she is preaching for any form of asceticism. Her emphasis is to abandon any form of attachment that encases the real self of an aspirant. Lalla exhorts to concentrate on Shiva, which will pave his way to the attainment of a state where he will get merged in Sunya, a name for transcendental Shiva in which the world and its objects lie in a condition of absolute dilution. The following verse is meaningful in this context:- *Loob marun sahaz vetsarun* *drogu zanun kalpan trav !* *Nishe chuy ta duru mo garun* *sunes sunyah milith gauv !!* Before Lalla Ded achieved her spiritual state of serlf-recognition she had followed many a course to act out their efficacy and usefulness in achieving her destination. She had studied Tantras, especially Bhairav Tantras and the practices prescribed in them. She utilised all her learning from them and took to mantras, worked them out and marched ahead. She felt that what she had achieved through Tantras and Mantras was that she had purified her chitta, limited form of chitti, consciousness supreme. After purification of her chitta, which was there but was free from the disturbance brought about by subject-object relationship, Lalla Ded attained the state of an aspirant, who has attained a loftiness of spiritual hue and is in ecstasy where nothing remains, but her own self stripped of all malas of attachment and duality. She in this lofty state merged into sunya, transcendental Shiva in whom the world of objects remains submerged in an undifferentiated form. *Lalla Ded sings:* *Tanthar gali tai manthar motse * *manthar gol tai motseyi chyath !* *Tseth gol tai kenh ti na kune* *sunes sunyah milith gauv !!* Sunya to Lalla Ded has come from non-dual thought of Kashmir, Shaivism which in turn had appropriated it from Buddhist thought. As a superb poet she sang it in vaakhs couching her intensely-felt experiences. Being a philosophical concept, Lalla Ded communicates the states of sunya that she had experienced during the course of her spiritual evolution. She is a great poet because she makes her felt experiences the stuff of her verse-sayings. Her poetry is great because she is philosophical in what she conveys and pours out. Source: Kashmir Sentinel __._,_. From c.anupam at gmail.com Wed Apr 22 11:01:25 2009 From: c.anupam at gmail.com (anupam chakravartty) Date: Wed, 22 Apr 2009 11:01:25 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Leftists Train Cameraman to make bombs In-Reply-To: <6b79f1a70904210846w5dbd5f0byc90f48c19be40bf1@mail.gmail.com> References: <6b79f1a70904210846w5dbd5f0byc90f48c19be40bf1@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <341380d00904212231p8304e3ey2d56453ace11cef3@mail.gmail.com> Dear Pawan, Making a petrol bomb is the easiest thing. One doesn't need to learn it from a "left-wing" student as it has been highlighted by the story. There is absolutely no technique involved in making a petrol bomb. with regards -anupam On 4/21/09, Pawan Durani wrote: > > "The police said Sinu learnt the technique of making petrol bombs from a > Left Front student activist while covering various agitations in the city." > > http://keralaonline.com/news/arson-attack-accused-chennai_34449.html > > Thiruvananthapuram, Monday 20 April 2009: A police team from the city has > left for Chennai with Sinu, alias Siraj Murukumpuzha, a 32-year-old news > cameraman who was recently arrested in connection with the arson attack on > the house of suspended Assistant Commissioner of Police S. Sanal Kumar in > February, as part of investigation into the incident. > > The police had arrested him last week from Chennai, where he was working > for > a news channel. Their case is that Sinu torched Mr. Sanal Kumar’s car and > lobbed petrol bombs into the latter’s house to exact revenge for arraigning > him as accused in a case relating to the kidnap of alleged financial > fraudster Sabarinath. > > The attack occurred early on February 25, 2009, a few days after Mr. Sanal > Kumar was suspended from service, pending inquiry, for alleged supervisory > lapse in a case relating to an attack on airport security personnel by two > drunken passengers. > > Investigators said Sinu, who was absconding after being charged with the > kidnap of Sabarinath, had seen Mr. Sanal’s suspension as an opportunity to > harm him. > > The police said Sinu’s brother-in-law Sooraj; his close friends and video > editors of different news channels, N. Hari Kumar and Hari G. Nair helped > him carry out the attack. > > Hari Kumar surrendered before a court in Chenkottai in Tamil Nadu last week > and is in judicial remand in Palayamkottai prison in Tirunelveli district. > The city police have sought his custody. > > The police have charged Sinu’s wife, Surabhi, among others, of plotting the > crime. The police also filed an affidavit in the High Court on Friday > opposing Surabhi’s plea for anticipatory bail. > > The police said Sinu learnt the technique of making petrol bombs from a > Left > Front student activist while covering various agitations in the city. > They said he made the bombs and posters lampooning Mr. Sanal Kumar, a few > of > which were found stuck on the walls of other houses in his neighbourhood at > Pothujanam Lane, near Kumarapuram. > > Investigators said they were trying to recover the laptop computer in which > the posters were designed. They were also trying to identify those who > harboured Sinu in Chennai after the police proclaimed him a wanted man. > > The police said Sinu used his car and his wife’s scooter for the act. Hari > Kumar waited in the car while Sinu and Sooraj carried out the attack. > After committing the crime, the accused slept on the terrace of Surabhi’s > house in the same locality. > > Hari G. Nair harboured Sinu for few some days after which he left for > Chennai and stayed in an apartment owned by one of Hari Kumar’s close > relatives, the investigators said. > > They said Surabhi’s parents had given conflicting statements about Sinu’s > presence in the house when questioned separately. > His father admitted that he was present there on the night of the attack > while Surabhi’s mother said she had not seen her son-in-law in months, they > said. > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > subscribe in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> From pawan.durani at gmail.com Wed Apr 22 11:06:22 2009 From: pawan.durani at gmail.com (Pawan Durani) Date: Wed, 22 Apr 2009 11:06:22 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Leftists Train Cameraman to make bombs In-Reply-To: <341380d00904212231p8304e3ey2d56453ace11cef3@mail.gmail.com> References: <6b79f1a70904210846w5dbd5f0byc90f48c19be40bf1@mail.gmail.com> <341380d00904212231p8304e3ey2d56453ace11cef3@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <6b79f1a70904212236rc39527ew57031fb78826af5d@mail.gmail.com> Anupam Ji, Is it so easy ? I am surprised . I always thought bombs would be difficult thing to make. Pawan On Wed, Apr 22, 2009 at 11:01 AM, anupam chakravartty wrote: > Dear Pawan, > > Making a petrol bomb is the easiest thing. One doesn't need to learn it > from > a "left-wing" student as it has been highlighted by the story. There is > absolutely no technique involved in making a petrol bomb. > > with regards -anupam > > > On 4/21/09, Pawan Durani wrote: > > > > "The police said Sinu learnt the technique of making petrol bombs from a > > Left Front student activist while covering various agitations in the > city." > > > > http://keralaonline.com/news/arson-attack-accused-chennai_34449.html > > > > Thiruvananthapuram, Monday 20 April 2009: A police team from the city has > > left for Chennai with Sinu, alias Siraj Murukumpuzha, a 32-year-old news > > cameraman who was recently arrested in connection with the arson attack > on > > the house of suspended Assistant Commissioner of Police S. Sanal Kumar in > > February, as part of investigation into the incident. > > > > The police had arrested him last week from Chennai, where he was working > > for > > a news channel. Their case is that Sinu torched Mr. Sanal Kumar’s car and > > lobbed petrol bombs into the latter’s house to exact revenge for > arraigning > > him as accused in a case relating to the kidnap of alleged financial > > fraudster Sabarinath. > > > > The attack occurred early on February 25, 2009, a few days after Mr. > Sanal > > Kumar was suspended from service, pending inquiry, for alleged > supervisory > > lapse in a case relating to an attack on airport security personnel by > two > > drunken passengers. > > > > Investigators said Sinu, who was absconding after being charged with the > > kidnap of Sabarinath, had seen Mr. Sanal’s suspension as an opportunity > to > > harm him. > > > > The police said Sinu’s brother-in-law Sooraj; his close friends and video > > editors of different news channels, N. Hari Kumar and Hari G. Nair helped > > him carry out the attack. > > > > Hari Kumar surrendered before a court in Chenkottai in Tamil Nadu last > week > > and is in judicial remand in Palayamkottai prison in Tirunelveli > district. > > The city police have sought his custody. > > > > The police have charged Sinu’s wife, Surabhi, among others, of plotting > the > > crime. The police also filed an affidavit in the High Court on Friday > > opposing Surabhi’s plea for anticipatory bail. > > > > The police said Sinu learnt the technique of making petrol bombs from a > > Left > > Front student activist while covering various agitations in the city. > > They said he made the bombs and posters lampooning Mr. Sanal Kumar, a few > > of > > which were found stuck on the walls of other houses in his neighbourhood > at > > Pothujanam Lane, near Kumarapuram. > > > > Investigators said they were trying to recover the laptop computer in > which > > the posters were designed. They were also trying to identify those who > > harboured Sinu in Chennai after the police proclaimed him a wanted man. > > > > The police said Sinu used his car and his wife’s scooter for the act. > Hari > > Kumar waited in the car while Sinu and Sooraj carried out the attack. > > After committing the crime, the accused slept on the terrace of Surabhi’s > > house in the same locality. > > > > Hari G. Nair harboured Sinu for few some days after which he left for > > Chennai and stayed in an apartment owned by one of Hari Kumar’s close > > relatives, the investigators said. > > > > They said Surabhi’s parents had given conflicting statements about Sinu’s > > presence in the house when questioned separately. > > His father admitted that he was present there on the night of the attack > > while Surabhi’s mother said she had not seen her son-in-law in months, > they > > said. > > _________________________________________ > > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > > Critiques & Collaborations > > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > > subscribe in the subject header. > > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > subscribe in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> From c.anupam at gmail.com Wed Apr 22 11:10:36 2009 From: c.anupam at gmail.com (anupam chakravartty) Date: Wed, 22 Apr 2009 11:10:36 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Leftists Train Cameraman to make bombs In-Reply-To: <6b79f1a70904212236rc39527ew57031fb78826af5d@mail.gmail.com> References: <6b79f1a70904210846w5dbd5f0byc90f48c19be40bf1@mail.gmail.com> <341380d00904212231p8304e3ey2d56453ace11cef3@mail.gmail.com> <6b79f1a70904212236rc39527ew57031fb78826af5d@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <341380d00904212240o2b891a48r5b9d1894400e1fc3@mail.gmail.com> Dear Pawan, Using a bomb may be difficult, making one is really easy. However, as Jarnail Singh demonstrated, a shoe is good enough to make the statement. -anupam On 4/22/09, Pawan Durani wrote: > > Anupam Ji, > > Is it so easy ? I am surprised . > > I always thought bombs would be difficult thing to make. > > Pawan > > > On Wed, Apr 22, 2009 at 11:01 AM, anupam chakravartty > wrote: > >> Dear Pawan, >> >> Making a petrol bomb is the easiest thing. One doesn't need to learn it >> from >> a "left-wing" student as it has been highlighted by the story. There is >> absolutely no technique involved in making a petrol bomb. >> >> with regards -anupam >> >> >> On 4/21/09, Pawan Durani wrote: >> > >> > "The police said Sinu learnt the technique of making petrol bombs from a >> > Left Front student activist while covering various agitations in the >> city." >> > >> > http://keralaonline.com/news/arson-attack-accused-chennai_34449.html >> > >> > Thiruvananthapuram, Monday 20 April 2009: A police team from the city >> has >> > left for Chennai with Sinu, alias Siraj Murukumpuzha, a 32-year-old news >> > cameraman who was recently arrested in connection with the arson attack >> on >> > the house of suspended Assistant Commissioner of Police S. Sanal Kumar >> in >> > February, as part of investigation into the incident. >> > >> > The police had arrested him last week from Chennai, where he was working >> > for >> > a news channel. Their case is that Sinu torched Mr. Sanal Kumar’s car >> and >> > lobbed petrol bombs into the latter’s house to exact revenge for >> arraigning >> > him as accused in a case relating to the kidnap of alleged financial >> > fraudster Sabarinath. >> > >> > The attack occurred early on February 25, 2009, a few days after Mr. >> Sanal >> > Kumar was suspended from service, pending inquiry, for alleged >> supervisory >> > lapse in a case relating to an attack on airport security personnel by >> two >> > drunken passengers. >> > >> > Investigators said Sinu, who was absconding after being charged with the >> > kidnap of Sabarinath, had seen Mr. Sanal’s suspension as an opportunity >> to >> > harm him. >> > >> > The police said Sinu’s brother-in-law Sooraj; his close friends and >> video >> > editors of different news channels, N. Hari Kumar and Hari G. Nair >> helped >> > him carry out the attack. >> > >> > Hari Kumar surrendered before a court in Chenkottai in Tamil Nadu last >> week >> > and is in judicial remand in Palayamkottai prison in Tirunelveli >> district. >> > The city police have sought his custody. >> > >> > The police have charged Sinu’s wife, Surabhi, among others, of plotting >> the >> > crime. The police also filed an affidavit in the High Court on Friday >> > opposing Surabhi’s plea for anticipatory bail. >> > >> > The police said Sinu learnt the technique of making petrol bombs from a >> > Left >> > Front student activist while covering various agitations in the city. >> > They said he made the bombs and posters lampooning Mr. Sanal Kumar, a >> few >> > of >> > which were found stuck on the walls of other houses in his neighbourhood >> at >> > Pothujanam Lane, near Kumarapuram. >> > >> > Investigators said they were trying to recover the laptop computer in >> which >> > the posters were designed. They were also trying to identify those who >> > harboured Sinu in Chennai after the police proclaimed him a wanted man. >> > >> > The police said Sinu used his car and his wife’s scooter for the act. >> Hari >> > Kumar waited in the car while Sinu and Sooraj carried out the attack. >> > After committing the crime, the accused slept on the terrace of >> Surabhi’s >> > house in the same locality. >> > >> > Hari G. Nair harboured Sinu for few some days after which he left for >> > Chennai and stayed in an apartment owned by one of Hari Kumar’s close >> > relatives, the investigators said. >> > >> > They said Surabhi’s parents had given conflicting statements about >> Sinu’s >> > presence in the house when questioned separately. >> > His father admitted that he was present there on the night of the attack >> > while Surabhi’s mother said she had not seen her son-in-law in months, >> they >> > said. >> >> > _________________________________________ >> > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. >> > Critiques & Collaborations >> > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with >> > subscribe in the subject header. >> > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list >> > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> >> _________________________________________ >> reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. >> Critiques & Collaborations >> To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with >> subscribe in the subject header. >> To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list >> List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> > > > From rajen882uppinangadi at gmail.com Wed Apr 22 11:40:55 2009 From: rajen882uppinangadi at gmail.com (Rajen Uppinangadi) Date: Wed, 22 Apr 2009 11:40:55 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Brahminical dominence ? In-Reply-To: <1f9180970904210520i7b46f3der639cf53ef5821d0@mail.gmail.com> References: <61164a90904210401k462156f8u40f90cea6a76c155@mail.gmail.com> <1f9180970904210520i7b46f3der639cf53ef5821d0@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <61164a90904212310x745fa773k4094027432b2420c@mail.gmail.com> Hi, Venu; Such general sweeping comments do not hold water in pluralistic society like this free India. To condemn the "brahminical" thinking itself is absurd, as brahminical way of thinking is for "sarve jana sukhino bhavanthu, in Vasudaiva kutumbakam. While it is true that in every faith, the women are subjugated, denied education and are less privileged with rights and the accent is more on their duties, it is absurd to say that hindu way of life encourages such in equality, for if it was so, gargi and maithreyi would not have had the place in the arguments for the society.The marad killings would not have happened when children and women were massacred in your backyard of Kerala. Shah Bano case would not have been the instance to talk about where livelihood was denied for a woman.Compared to other faiths, hindu way of life has exceptional place for women in modern living, unlike taliban which shoots down the couple if found walking together, the mullas would not proclaim fathwas for the saving of a father for raping his own daughter. With changing times, it is reforms that have taken place in hindu way of life from within religion rather than outside, thanks to persons like Raja Rammohan Roy, Jyothi Phule , and many other reformists, in modern times even Ambedkar has contributed his might to reforms in the way society treats the oppressed. But the political will to reforms in society has to come from within the society as no amounts of laws can change as seen in Dowry act, and the dowry menace is flourishing in all faiths.In fact, the roman catholic weddings in Kerala are notorious for the wedding and lavish dory angle to them, as clergy would bless the couple who part with substantially dirty, obscene amounts for such blessing of an arch bishop, as was told to me by a bishop friend. So, to generalise the menace of oppression only to one way of life, hindu is not only reflects the general trend of condemning whatever is hindu, as brahminical. As to Rama Rajya, let it be remembered that Rama was kshatriya king who administered his subjects wth care and concern for public opinion. A doubt about his own wife as expressed by a subject made him take the harsh step to send his wife to the forests when she was pregnent, to the Ashram. Todays leaders do not care for the public opinion as much as they did , but generate public opinion thru media and other means for their agendas, is my perception. Regards, Rajen. On Tue, Apr 21, 2009 at 5:50 PM, Venugopalan K M wrote: > Dear Rajen, > > By adopting such a position on Brahmanical and Brahmanism, one will stand > to lose the very usefulness of this important concept. As you were stating > it has less to do with propagating hate than understanding the exceptionally > institutionalized and ritualized hate in the social and cultural life of > India. > This is sure to raise lot of other questions: Why, for example after the > happening of the Khairlanji in September 2006 {almost the entire people of a > village participate in the act of parading naked,raping,(women),killing and > mutilating the bodies of the 4 victims who were members of a dalit family > (converted to Budhism) }, the entire media kept silence for about one month? > So , an understanding of Brahmanism together with Brahmanical ways of > thinking, not only does not talk of Brahmans as persons but more as a > collective and typically negative attitude. It is characterized by > defending privileges with respect to the ascending order of caste and > denying equality; significantly women of all castes are automatically > considered inferior to their male counterparts(this is also seen in every > other religion; but practices of cruelty to widows ,women not giving birth > to to male offsprings, not able to consummate marriage etc,etc are viewed > with special contempt in the brahmanical Hinduism).The extremely negative > attitude to change or reform is a direct result of a desire to protect the > system of privileges to the exclusion of others. These are generally what > are considered as traits associated with Brahmanism.Unfortunately, majority > of victims of this system of heirarchy are ideologically co-opted to it; > they are not expected to doubt the system which is has been taught to them > as divinely ordained.They are expected to just obey without grumbles and > get better off in the future birth.(*Chathrvarnam maya srushtam guna karma > vibhagasa*- The system has been created by me according to your past * > karma* and your qualities and just do your caste-ordained duties-this is > the message of Bhagvan in Gita (Ch IX verse 32 ?..I don't remember it > correctly) > I'm not suggesting that every person believing in the Hindu scriptures and > the Gita would support mass murders and ritualistic killings of dalits as > happened in khairlanji..not that the media always will attempt to cover up > such incidents.To be certain, in the media controlled by the upper caste > Hindus,there is always a tendency to underplay the unpleasant factors > related with caste. Gandhi was a great admirer and interpretor of Gita and > yet he was assassinated by Godse, who was a fanatic adherent of > Brahmanism.But even Gandhi believed in a Ramarajya of his own notion..so are > the less enlightened 'Hindu' masses to a greater or lesser degree in > denying equality to women and lower castes, the very victims of > discriminations included.Then, not to speak of the tendency to resist > reservations and to monopolize knowledge and power by a minority. Certainly, > the print media dominated by the upper caste plays a significant role in > perpetuating the bias against the under privileged.The internet and the > electronic media at a more globalized level, are able to challenge this > privilege of the upper caste elites in significant ways. > Regards, > Venu. > > Regards, > Venu. > > > > On Tue, Apr 21, 2009 at 4:31 PM, Rajen Uppinangadi < > rajen882uppinangadi at gmail.com> wrote: > >> Hi, >> >> Venu, >> >> List is at times, makes up for the surprise packages for all with >> undertones of "caste" and is casted with caste as theme of hate, if one >> post talks of twice born as brahmins, another talks of brahminical >> domination of media, which are again myths to say the least, if otherwise it >> is meant to be "learned" are brahmins, knowledgeable "caste", then may be >> it is acceptable but still as we strive for togetherness above the caste and >> faith conundrums of hate, it is really ammusing that of all you start with >> this theme of hate on the basi of caste.? >> >> To illustrate, Mr. Kancha Illayya, regular columnist, who takes up >> issues of oppressed is a brahmin by his domination in media with the issues, >> just as sage Vishwamitra who gave the most potent manthra, Gayathri, is >> brahmin by his work, not by birth.? But contrary examples are also are >> visible in society, where by birth some are brahmins, but behaviour is that >> of worse than anyone, like the Dr. Murli manohar Joshi, in his acts and >> utterances.? Again, a journalist and lecturer in Physics., Dr. Joshi, who >> blindly follows the rituals without knowing the reasons behind such rituals, >> is again worse off even as brahmin born, as birth does not give the right to >> oppress others.? For example, the meaning of twice born is that once the >> child is born, at the tender age of around 12 years, he is vowed to go for >> higher studies to Benares, and the trip being in olden days, hazardous, it >> was presumed to be secong birth to undertake such a long journey for >> education, times have changed with chools imparting education at hop, skip >> and jump distances from homes these days.? >> >> As to media and media houses, most of them are run atleast in Karnataka >> by Idigas, or theeyas, or known in slang as toddy tappers, so the education >> has changed everything, let us come out of this caste fixation, judge the >> works rather than the caste.Visual media channels are again run by >> individuals who know how to run the business with trps, news is not what >> viewers want, but what the channels dish out as views in news in this age of >> info-tainment. Otherwise how do you explain the anchors and their behaviour >> with type of presentation of "news" compared to western media, where anchors >> are better dressed with least exposure of made up face and bodies.? >> >> Regards, >> >> Rajen. >> >> >> > > > -- > http://venukm.blogspot.com/ > From jeebesh at sarai.net Wed Apr 22 11:41:25 2009 From: jeebesh at sarai.net (Jeebesh) Date: Wed, 22 Apr 2009 11:41:25 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] On the Pirate Bay conviction Message-ID: Resent-From: nettime at kein.org From: jaromil at dyne.org Subject: On the Pirate Bay conviction Date: 21 April 2009 10:35:34 PM GMT+05:30 Resent-To: nettime-l at kein.org To: nettime-l at kein.org -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 re all, As some of you might already have heard, the second appeal to the Pirate Bay courtcase ended up with the conviction of four people behind the popular bittorrent tracker and website, Alan Toner give us two extensive accounts about the situation on his blog: http://knowfuture.wordpress.com/2009/04/17/pirate-bay-defendants-convicted/ http://knowfuture.wordpress.com/2009/04/18/more-on-the-pirate-bay-conviction/ Further below you'll find the statement that the Internet Society Philippines Chapter released about the happenings. What I find particularly interesting about the point of view offered by ISOC-PH president Fatima Lasay is the deep awareness of political implications in this and other similar court cases also quoted, for which the Pirate Bay case covers a prominent role. Seen from an Asian perspective, the criminalising campaigns lead by Western business interests represent a worrying threat to the planetary opening that "peer to peer" cultures and practices provide for developing countries. Behind the surface of this court case lies a tension that lasts since several centuries in history, as the historical account of professor Boron Ben-Altar outlines in his book "Trade Secrets: Intellectual Piracy and the Origins of American Industrial Power" (obviously intended as North American here). Almost 2 years ago I've done my best exploring the topic from the perspective of "border economies", as well outlining the complementary dynamic of loss of privacy for Internet citizens. http://jaromil.dyne.org/journal/piracy_privacy.html Going further in connecting dots, let me now mention that these dynamics are evolving into a worrying threat to free speech and wide access to media offered by contemporary participative technologies, as outlined by the European campaign http://www.blackouteurope.eu As Alan documents in his reports a popular uprise is raising specifically on the PB case, still as a symptom of the wider concerns it raises: examples are the "#fullboycott" campaign launched by Monochrom activists http://www.monochrom.at/fullboycott as well the dedication of the First Internet Pavilion at the Venice Biennial to The Pirate Bay cause noticed by Miltos Manetas on this list. Obviously the Pirate Bay court case is not just a concern for the Swedish jurisdiction: it is configuring as a crucial node for the evolution of knowledge sharing policies on a planetary scale, for which it is extremely important to take into account an Asian perspective offered by the document that follows. ------------ ISOC-Philippines statement on the jail sentence for The Pirate Bay founders and the criminal charges against philosophy professor Horacio Potel By isoc-ph, on April 20, 2009, 2:05 am http://isoc.ph/portal/2009/04/isoc-philippines-statement-on-pirate-bay-and-potel/ The Internet Society Philippines' (ISOC-PH) Public Policy Principles and activities are based upon a fundamental belief that "The Internet is for everyone." ISOC-PH upholds and defends core values that allow people throughout the world to enjoy the benefits of the Internet. Recent developments, however, demonstrate an alarming growth towards a "license culture" on the Internet, imposed by the criminalization of those whose culture and society advance creativity, innovation and economic opportunity through the values of openness, sharing, education and collaboration. Philosophy professor Horacio Potel from Argentina is facing criminal charges for maintaining a personal and educational website devoted to Spanish translations of works by French philosopher Jacques Derrida. A court in Sweden has found the four men behind "The Pirate Bay", a file-sharing website, guilty of breaking copyright law and were sentenced to a year in jail and ordered to pay $4.5m (£3m) in damages. The Ability to Share is one of ISOC's core values. The many-to-many architecture of the Internet makes it a powerful tool for sharing, education, and collaboration. It has enabled the global open source community to develop and enhance many of the key components of the Internet, such as the Domain Name System and the World-Wide Web, and has made the vision of digital libraries a reality. To preserve these benefits we will oppose technologies and legislation that would inhibit the freedom to develop and use open source software or limit the well-established concept of fair use, which is essential to scholarship, education, and collaboration. We will also oppose excessively restrictive governmental or private controls on computer hardware or software, telecommunications infrastructure, or Internet content. Such controls and restrictions substantially diminish the social, political, and economic benefits of the Internet. The wire-tapping, searches and seizures, the removal of website content and the criminal charges against professor Potel of the University of Buenos Aires is an onslaught on human rights and academic freedom in Argentina and on the Internet. The police seizures of servers, the enormous bill for damages and the jail sentence on Frederik Neij, Gottfrid Svartholm Warg, Carl Lundstrom and Peter Sunde is a defiance of the social and cultural institution of file-sharing in Sweden and on the Internet. ISOC-PH founding member and lawyer Michael Dizon writes, "Putting greater emphasis on the development of social or community norms and how people can actively participate in the creation of these norms may be more advantageous in advancing creative culture than resorting to contractual agreements. Ideally, laws (and the licenses that seek to enforce rights based on these laws) should embody and uphold the norms and values of a community, and not the other way around." As founding president of the newly rejuvenated ISOC-Philippines Chapter, I would like to dispute some of the statements being made regarding the Pirate Bay trials, in particular, by John Kennedy, Chairman and CEO of the International Federation of the Phonographic Industry. Mr Kennedy says, "This is good news for everyone, in Sweden and internationally, who is making a living or a business from creative activity and who needs to know their rights will protected by law." In keeping with the ISOC-PH mandate, I find it offensive to the diversity of cultures on the Internet the claim that the global model of copyright protection being imposed upon the developers and users of the Internet is "good news for everyone." I also find it hard to accept the sincerity of Mr Kennedy's statement about "making a living or a business from creative activity." In fact only a handful of media corporations have effectively taken over what used to be a very diverse field of creative activity. Such a process of consolidation and privatization has created gross inequality between artists and the big media corporations: relations between artists and recording companies are replete with exploitative contracts and bitter legal struggles for control; and royalties and other earnings from copyright constitute only a fraction of the income of most active professional artists. The Pirate Bay trials and the criminal charges against professor Potel are a threat to academic freedom and free speech, and they undermine the Internet core value of the Ability to Share. If we envision a future in which people in all parts of the world can use the Internet to improve their quality of life, then freedom, and not a "license culture", must be obtained for professor Potel, the Pirate Bay founders and the Internet communities of sharing. ISOC-PH calls on all Internet citizens to demand freedom. Fatima Lasay President Internet Society Philippines Chapter http://isoc.ph/portal/ Quezon City, Philippines April 20, 2009 - -- jaromil, dyne.org developer, http://jaromil.dyne.org GPG: 779F E8B5 47C7 3A89 4112 64D0 7B64 3184 B534 0B5E -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.4.9 (GNU/Linux) iEYEARECAAYFAknt/NwACgkQe2QxhLU0C16RUwCgzIdm1qfULJPfiD6AfS16LmIH t1UAnAljx6zsT3WrQm5BzvwWm9JpLm9M =+vwG -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- # distributed via : no commercial use without permission # is a moderated mailing list for net criticism, # collaborative text filtering and cultural politics of the nets # more info: http://mail.kein.org/mailman/listinfo/nettime-l # archive: http://www.nettime.org contact: nettime at kein.org From amit.mahanti at gmail.com Wed Apr 22 12:03:49 2009 From: amit.mahanti at gmail.com (Amit Mahanti) Date: Wed, 22 Apr 2009 12:03:49 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Film Screening at Jagori Message-ID: <852cf9500904212333t50cfe18l311d1837636989bf@mail.gmail.com> Dear All, We are screening our film, “Koi Na Aaya Akela (No One Has Come Alone)", at Jagori on Friday, the 24th of April at 4 p.m. A synopsis of the film is outlined below. Hope you can make it. The address of the venue is: JAGORI B-114, Shivalik, Malviya Nagar NEW DELHI 110 017 Phone #s: (011) 26691219 & 26691220 Helpline: (011) 2669 2700 Fax #: (011) 2669 1221 ............................................................................................................................................................................................................................. *Koi Na Aaya Akela (No One Has Come Alone) / (25 min) Frame Works Research & Media Collective, 2008 * In April 2008, more than 3000 single women from all over Himachal Pradesh undertook a three-day padyatra to Shimla, to present a charter of demands to the Chief Minister of Himachal Pradesh. According to some estimates, there are more than two lakh single women in Himachal Pradesh-widows, divorcees, unmarried beyond a certain age or abandoned- women who live on the fringes and do not enjoy any entitlements. Many of these women have organized themselves under the banner of Ekal Nari Shakti Sangathan. This padyatra was an attempt to exert pressure on the State to give them the recognition that is rightfully due to them. *Koi Na Aaya Akela (No One Has Come Alone) *tries to capture the indomitable spirit of these women during the padyatra- their belief in themselves as they brave the odds to make their voices heard in the echelons of power. *Frame Works Research and Media Collective, based in **New Delhi**, uses interdisciplinary practices to explore development issues and social processes. In working on these issues, they try and create an interface between research practices and visual/other media like photography, community radio, film and community art. Besides ethnographic, secondary research and documentary films, Frame Works consciously adopts participatory community-based models of research and media in their work. Frame Works comprises of Ruchika Negi, Amit Mahanti and Subhashim Goswami**.* -- Frame Works Research and Media Collective Second Floor, C113 Kalkaji New Delhi 110019 Amit Mahanti +91 9818 526117 Ruchika Negi +91 98189 16909 Subhashim Goswami +91 98686 01937 From c.anupam at gmail.com Wed Apr 22 12:33:00 2009 From: c.anupam at gmail.com (anupam chakravartty) Date: Wed, 22 Apr 2009 12:33:00 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Iranian President Mammoud Ahmadnejad's speech at Durban Review Conference Message-ID: <341380d00904220003k46600732k7297c91cc557e53e@mail.gmail.com> Ahmadinejad speech: full text *This is the full text of the speech Iranian President Mahmoud Ahmadinejad gave at the Durban Review Conference, a UN conference on racism, in Geneva, Switzerland, on Tuesday, 20th April 2009.* *Protesters interrupted the conference before Mr Ahmadinejad could start his speech. He refers to the incident in his opening sentence.* I would like to ask all honourable participants to forgive them. They are ignorant. In the name of God, the Merciful, the Compassionate. Thanks to God, the Lord of the worlds, and peace and praise be upon our master and prophet, Muhammad and his immaculate progeny and true followers. O God, hasten the reappearance of the Hidden Imam and grant him health and victory and make us his true companions and believers and those who testify to His rightfulness. Praise belongs to the just, merciful, and compassionate God. May God's blessing be upon the prophets, Adam, Noah, Abraham, Moses, Jesus, and the last prophet His Holiness Muhammad Mustafa, who called for monotheism, fraternity, kindness, human dignity, and justice. Mr Chairman, Honourable Secretary-General of the UN, Honourable High Commissariat for Human Rights, Ladies and Gentlemen, following the Durban anti-racism and discrimination conference, we have gathered here to examine the current situation and to find practical solutions for this humane and sacred campaign. In the past centuries, great injustice was inflicted on mankind. In the Middle Ages scholars and scientists were sentenced to death. And later on slavery and the hunting down of innocent people, separating them from their families and taking them in millions to Europe and America in the worst conditions, was popular. These were dark ages where lands were occupied and their sources were looted, and innocent people were killed and made homeless. Years passed until people rose. They paid a high price in order to drive occupiers out and establish independent and national governments; millions of people were killed. Those in power imposed two major wars in short periods of time on Europe and parts of Africa and Asia. These were wars which took about 100 million lives and resulted in destruction of a lot of countries and regions. Those who won these wars considered themselves conquerors of the world and considered other nations defeated. And by the imposition of oppressive laws and arrangements they ignored and violated other nations rights. Ladies and gentlemen, look at the Security Council which is the legacy of World War I and II. Based on what logic have they been given the right to veto? With which human and divine value is this logic compatible? Justice, equality in the eye of law and human dignity or discrimination, injustice, violation of human rights and belittling the majority of nations and countries? This Council is the most supreme decision-making centre for maintaining peace and security in the world. When there is legal discrimination and the law-making centre is a source of bullying and force instead of justice and fairness, how can one expect to achieve justice and peace? Seeking power and selfishness is the source of racism, discrimination, aggression and tyranny. Today many racists condemn racism in their slogans and speeches but when some powerful countries give themselves the right to make decisions for other countries, using their discretion, and based on their own interests, they can easily trample on all rules and human values. As they have already proven. After the Second World War, by exploiting the holocaust and under the pretext of protecting the Jews they made a nation homeless with military expeditions and invasion. They transferred various groups of people from America, Europe and other countries to this land. They established a completely racist government in the occupied Palestinian territories. And in fact, under the pretext of making up for damages resulting from racism in Europe, they established the most aggressive, racist country in another territory, i.e. Palestine. The Security Council endorsed this usurper regime and for 60 years constantly defended it and let it commit any kind of crime. Worse than this is that some Western governments and America are committed to support genocidal racists while others condemn the bombardment of innocent human beings, the occupation of their land and the disasters that took place in Gaza. Even before they kept silent, not responding to all the crimes of that regime, and supported it. Dear friends, ladies and gentlemen, what has been the source of recent wars such as the Americans' attack on Iraq or the wide military expedition in Afghanistan? Has it been anything else than the selfishness of the American government of the time and the pressures by those in possession of wealth and power to expand influence and hegemony, support weapon manufacturers, destroy a great culture that is thousands of years old, destroying possible and potentials risks by the countries of the region against the occupying Quds regime, and looting the energy resources of the Iraqi people? In fact why were one million people dead and injured and a few million people forced to leave their homeland? Why were hundreds of billions of dollars worth of damage inflicted on the Iraqi people and hundreds of billions of dollars of costs for the military invasion imposed on the American people and America's allies? Was attacking Iraq not orchestrated by the Zionists and their allies in the previous ruling government of America which was on the one hand in power and on the other the owner of arms manufacturing companies? Did peace, security and prosperity return to Afghanistan by military intervention? America and its allies were not even able to stop the production of narcotics and during their presence it increased several fold. The main question is this: What was the role of the previous ruling system in America and its allies? Were they the representatives of the world nations? Were they elected by the world nations? Do they have representation by the world nations to interfere in the affairs of all parts of the world and especially our region? Don't these actions, the occupation of Iraq and Afghanistan, count as examples of selfishness, racism, discrimination and violating the dignity and independence of other nations? Ladies and gentlemen, who are the people in charge of the crisis-hit economy of the world? Where did the crisis start? Did it start in Africa and Asia or American and then Europe and their allies? For a long time, using their political influence, they [West] imposed unfair economic laws on international economic transactions. They set up financial and monetary systems without provisions of international supervision and imposed those systems on countries that did not have the smallest role to play in the processes and policies adopted. They do not even allow their own nations to supervise. By taking away morality from their actions, they have established laws in a way that they serve the interests of certain powerful people and capitalists. By giving a specific definition of free market and competition, they took away many opportunities from others and imposed their problems on others. Today, with dozens of thousands of billions of dollars of debt and thousands of billions of dollars of budget deficit, those waves of crisis have come back to them. Even today in order to improve the situation, they have started injecting hundred billions of dollars of unsupported money from the pockets of their citizens and other nations into banks and companies and financial markets which were close to bankruptcy and they have made their people even more indebted and they have made the problem more complicated. They are thinking of maintaining their power and wealth. And the people of the world and even their own people are of no value to them. Mr President, ladies and gentlemen, the true root of racism is the lack of human understanding as God's chosen creatures and deviation from the true path of human life and human missions in creation. Due to negligence in worshipping God with awareness and pondering on the philosophy of life and the path towards human perfection - which leads to the natural outcome of being committed to divine values and mankind - the horizon of human insight has declined. And limited and temporary interests became the criteria of evaluation and actions by human beings. Therefore, the seeds of evil power took their shape and by neglecting fair chances for others' growth, it added to the boundaries of its development. In such a way that it changed to an ugly and uncontrollable racism that today it is threatening the global peace as the most dangerous factor. And it is an obstacle on the way of achieving peaceful life in the world. Undoubtedly, racism should be recognised as the symbol of ignorance of the depth of history and a sign of dogmatism against mankind's general growth. Therefore, we should look for the signs of racism under conditions and situations in a society where poverty of knowledge and lack of understanding would be spread. Therefore, the main means of fighting such symptoms is to promote general awareness and deepening public understanding towards the philosophy of mankind's existence and the truth about the human-oriented world. Its requirement or outcome is a return to spiritual and ethical values and human virtues and finally the belief in God. The global society should start a united cultural movement for enlightening certain suffering and undeveloped societies as much as possible and uproot this hideous and evil phenomenon. But dear friends, today the human society is facing a kind of racism which has an ugliness that has completely distorted the honour of mankind at the verge of the third millennium and it has made the global society shameful. The global Zionism is the complete symbol of racism, which with unreal reliance on religion has tried to misuse the religious beliefs of some unaware people and hide its ugly face. But what should be seriously considered are the goals of certain superpowers and those in possession of major interests in the world; those who try their best through economic power and political influence and wide media means, to lessen the crimes and ugliness of the nature of the Zionist regime. Here, the main issue is not ignorance and therefore, cultural movements on their own, are not sufficient to fight this evil phenomenon. But we should try to put an end to the misuse of international means by the Zionists and their supporters. And by respecting nations' demands, we should motivate the united governments to eliminate this clear racism and step on the path of reforming international relations 0and mechanisms with courage. Undoubtedly, you are all aware of the extensive efforts by the institutes of global power towards creating a deviation on the path of the real mission of this important conference. Unfortunately in the literature supporting the Zionists, a clear participation and cooperation in their crimes can be noticed. And this adds to the responsibilities of the respectful representatives of nations in revealing this antihuman issue and improving relations and behaviours. We should be aware that to keep a huge global capacity, such as this conference, away from its real intentions, means helping to continue the most hideous sense of racism. Today the necessity of defending human rights is firstly, to defend the rights of a nation to be free to make decisions regarding important global affairs without the influence of certain powers; secondly, to take action to improve international structures and relations. Therefore, this conference is the arena of a major test and we will be judged by the world's public opinion today and tomorrow. Mr Chairman, ladies and gentlemen, the world's general condition is rapidly moving towards basic changes. Power based equations have become very weak. The sound of the pillars of global tyranny breaking can be heard. Political and macro economic structures are falling. Political and security crisis are growing. And the growing global economic crisis, for the resolution of which there is no bright horizon, makes all sorts of quantitative and quality aspects of change on the way very impressive. I have emphasised the necessity of getting back from the wrong path that today's absolute global management is following and I have warned about the critical outcomes of delaying to do so. Also now, in this valued conference, addressing you managers, thinkers and all the world nations who are thirsty for peace, freedom, progress and prosperity, I would like to say that the unjust ruling of the world is reaching its end. This deadlock was inevitable since the logic behind this imposed management is tyrannical. This is because the logic of the mass movement of the world is divine, purposeful, humane and God-centred. It is a movement which opposes any policy or plan which is not in line with the interests of nations. Victory of truth over vice and the bright future of humanity and the establishment of a just global system is the promise of God and all prophets, and a common hope of all communities and generations. Achieving such a future justifies the reason behind creation, is the belief of all those faithful to God and the very high status of the human beings. Formation of a global community, the practical possibility of a common global system materialising and finally involving thinkers, managers and people of the world to actively and justly participate in the macro and principle decision makings is the main path to this great destination. At the moment, scientific and technical capabilities as well as information and communication technology have created a mutual and comprehensive understanding of the global community and have created the necessary ground for a common system to materialise. . Now, this is a grave responsibility that the world's scientists, elites and officials across the world should shoulder by playing a historic role through faith in this definite path. Now I want to stress on this fact that western capitalism like communism has reached the end of its path because it does not see the world and humanity as they are. It has tried to impose a self-constructed path and destination and instead of paying attention to human and divine values, justice, freedom, compassion and brotherhood it has set fierce competition for gaining individual and collective materialistic interests as a basis for life. Now we should collectively try to learn lessons from the past and understand the necessity for correcting this path by considering today's conditions. And on the same note and as the final word I would like to draw your attention to two important points. First point: The improvement of the current international condition is hundred per cent possible. But we should know that this cannot be achieved without the cooperation of all the governments and nations. Therefore, we should benefit from the capacities of international cooperation to the maximum. My presence in this conference indicates my respect for this important issue, and the essential issue of human rights and support for nations' rights against the evil phenomenon of racism and cooperation with you, the thinkers. Second: Considering the lack of efficiency of systems and international political, economic, security and cultural relations is necessary. In view of divine and humanitarian values and the true and real definition of human beings and based on justice and respect for the rights of all human beings across the world, confessing to the wrong management in the past and changing the views and performances, measures should be taken to reform the current structures. Therefore, a speedy change in the structure of the United Nations and the elimination of the discriminatory right to veto and a change in the financial and monetary system of the world must be on the agenda. Obviously, the lack of understanding for the urgency of this change will result in heavier costs due to any delay. My dear friends, you should know that moving in line with justice and human dignity is like moving quickly on a stream of water. Let's not forget the valuable elixir of love and compassion. The guarantee for a clear future for human beings is a great asset that can keep us more aware and more hopeful than ever before. It can enable us to create a world full of love and blessing and can be free from poverty and hatred. We will also be able to profit from the blessings of God and have the advantage of having a decent management of a complete human being. Let us all have a share in this important issue, and hope for that bright and beautiful day. I would like to sincerely thank the President and the UN Secretary-General and all of you for your patience, wishing you dignity and success.” *This is a BBC translation from a speech transcript supplied by the Islamic Republic of Iran News Network, Tehran, in Persian.* *The speech Mr Ahmadinejad gave was different in some respects from the draft submitted previously by the Iranians to the UN. That can be accessed here* From vivek at sarai.net Wed Apr 22 13:00:27 2009 From: vivek at sarai.net (Vivek Narayanan) Date: Wed, 22 Apr 2009 13:00:27 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Iranian President Mammoud Ahmadnejad's speech at Durban Review Conference In-Reply-To: <341380d00904220003k46600732k7297c91cc557e53e@mail.gmail.com> References: <341380d00904220003k46600732k7297c91cc557e53e@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <49EEC793.4020102@sarai.net> What a lot of hot air! Vivek anupam chakravartty wrote: > Ahmadinejad speech: full text > > *This is the full text of the speech Iranian President Mahmoud Ahmadinejad > gave at the Durban Review Conference, a UN conference on racism, in Geneva, > Switzerland, on Tuesday, 20th April 2009.* > > *Protesters interrupted the conference before Mr Ahmadinejad could start his > speech. He refers to the incident in his opening sentence.* > > I would like to ask all honourable participants to forgive them. They are > ignorant. > > > In the name of God, the Merciful, the Compassionate. Thanks to God, the Lord > of the worlds, and peace and praise be upon our master and prophet, Muhammad > and his immaculate progeny and true followers. O God, hasten the > reappearance of the Hidden Imam and grant him health and victory and make us > his true companions and believers and those who testify to His rightfulness. > > > Praise belongs to the just, merciful, and compassionate God. May God's > blessing be upon the prophets, Adam, Noah, Abraham, Moses, Jesus, and the > last prophet His Holiness Muhammad Mustafa, who called for monotheism, > fraternity, kindness, human dignity, and justice. > > Mr Chairman, Honourable Secretary-General of the UN, Honourable High > Commissariat for Human Rights, Ladies and Gentlemen, following the Durban > anti-racism and discrimination conference, we have gathered here to examine > the current situation and to find practical solutions for this humane and > sacred campaign. In the past centuries, great injustice was inflicted on > mankind. > > In the Middle Ages scholars and scientists were sentenced to death. And > later on slavery and the hunting down of innocent people, separating them > from their families and taking them in millions to Europe and America in the > worst conditions, was popular. These were dark ages where lands were > occupied and their sources were looted, and innocent people were killed and > made homeless. Years passed until people rose. They paid a high price in > order to drive occupiers out and establish independent and national > governments; millions of people were killed. Those in power imposed two > major wars in short periods of time on Europe and parts of Africa and Asia. > These were wars which took about 100 million lives and resulted in > destruction of a lot of countries and regions. Those who won these wars > considered themselves conquerors of the world and considered other nations > defeated. And by the imposition of oppressive laws and arrangements they > ignored and violated other nations rights. > > Ladies and gentlemen, look at the Security Council which is the legacy of > World War I and II. Based on what logic have they been given the right to > veto? With which human and divine value is this logic compatible? Justice, > equality in the eye of law and human dignity or discrimination, injustice, > violation of human rights and belittling the majority of nations and > countries? This Council is the most supreme decision-making centre for > maintaining peace and security in the world. > > When there is legal discrimination and the law-making centre is a source of > bullying and force instead of justice and fairness, how can one expect to > achieve justice and peace? Seeking power and selfishness is the source of > racism, discrimination, aggression and tyranny. Today many racists condemn > racism in their slogans and speeches but when some powerful countries give > themselves the right to make decisions for other countries, using their > discretion, and based on their own interests, they can easily trample on all > rules and human values. As they have already proven. > > After the Second World War, by exploiting the holocaust and under the > pretext of protecting the Jews they made a nation homeless with military > expeditions and invasion. They transferred various groups of people from > America, Europe and other countries to this land. They established a > completely racist government in the occupied Palestinian territories. And in > fact, under the pretext of making up for damages resulting from racism in > Europe, they established the most aggressive, racist country in another > territory, i.e. Palestine. > > The Security Council endorsed this usurper regime and for 60 years > constantly defended it and let it commit any kind of crime. > > Worse than this is that some Western governments and America are committed > to support genocidal racists while others condemn the bombardment of > innocent human beings, the occupation of their land and the disasters that > took place in Gaza. Even before they kept silent, not responding to all the > crimes of that regime, and supported it. Dear friends, ladies and gentlemen, > what has been the source of recent wars such as the Americans' attack on > Iraq or the wide military expedition in Afghanistan? Has it been anything > else than the selfishness of the American government of the time and the > pressures by those in possession of wealth and power to expand influence and > hegemony, support weapon manufacturers, destroy a great culture that is > thousands of years old, destroying possible and potentials risks by the > countries of the region against the occupying Quds regime, and looting the > energy resources of the Iraqi people? > > In fact why were one million people dead and injured and a few million > people forced to leave their homeland? Why were hundreds of billions of > dollars worth of damage inflicted on the Iraqi people and hundreds of > billions of dollars of costs for the military invasion imposed on the > American people and America's allies? Was attacking Iraq not orchestrated by > the Zionists and their allies in the previous ruling government of America > which was on the one hand in power and on the other the owner of arms > manufacturing companies? > > Did peace, security and prosperity return to Afghanistan by military > intervention? America and its allies were not even able to stop the > production of narcotics and during their presence it increased several fold. > The main question is this: What was the role of the previous ruling system > in America and its allies? Were they the representatives of the world > nations? Were they elected by the world nations? Do they have representation > by the world nations to interfere in the affairs of all parts of the world > and especially our region? Don't these actions, the occupation of Iraq and > Afghanistan, count as examples of selfishness, racism, discrimination and > violating the dignity and independence of other nations? > > Ladies and gentlemen, who are the people in charge of the crisis-hit economy > of the world? Where did the crisis start? Did it start in Africa and Asia or > American and then Europe and their allies? > > For a long time, using their political influence, they [West] imposed unfair > economic laws on international economic transactions. They set up financial > and monetary systems without provisions of international supervision and > imposed those systems on countries that did not have the smallest role to > play in the processes and policies adopted. > > They do not even allow their own nations to supervise. By taking away > morality from their actions, they have established laws in a way that they > serve the interests of certain powerful people and capitalists. By giving a > specific definition of free market and competition, they took away many > opportunities from others and imposed their problems on others. > > Today, with dozens of thousands of billions of dollars of debt and thousands > of billions of dollars of budget deficit, those waves of crisis have come > back to them. > > Even today in order to improve the situation, they have started injecting > hundred billions of dollars of unsupported money from the pockets of their > citizens and other nations into banks and companies and financial markets > which were close to bankruptcy and they have made their people even more > indebted and they have made the problem more complicated. > > They are thinking of maintaining their power and wealth. And the people of > the world and even their own people are of no value to them. Mr President, > ladies and gentlemen, the true root of racism is the lack of human > understanding as God's chosen creatures and deviation from the true path of > human life and human missions in creation. Due to negligence in worshipping > God with awareness and pondering on the philosophy of life and the path > towards human perfection - which leads to the natural outcome of being > committed to divine values and mankind - the horizon of human insight has > declined. And limited and temporary interests became the criteria of > evaluation and actions by human beings. Therefore, the seeds of evil power > took their shape and by neglecting fair chances for others' growth, it added > to the boundaries of its development. > > In such a way that it changed to an ugly and uncontrollable racism that > today it is threatening the global peace as the most dangerous factor. And > it is an obstacle on the way of achieving peaceful life in the world. > Undoubtedly, racism should be recognised as the symbol of ignorance of the > depth of history and a sign of dogmatism against mankind's general growth. > Therefore, we should look for the signs of racism under conditions and > situations in a society where poverty of knowledge and lack of understanding > would be spread. Therefore, the main means of fighting such symptoms is to > promote general awareness and deepening public understanding towards the > philosophy of mankind's existence and the truth about the human-oriented > world. Its requirement or outcome is a return to spiritual and ethical > values and human virtues and finally the belief in God. The global society > should start a united cultural movement for enlightening certain suffering > and undeveloped societies as much as possible and uproot this hideous and > evil phenomenon. > > But dear friends, today the human society is facing a kind of racism which > has an ugliness that has completely distorted the honour of mankind at the > verge of the third millennium and it has made the global society shameful. > The global Zionism is the complete symbol of racism, which with unreal > reliance on religion has tried to misuse the religious beliefs of some > unaware people and hide its ugly face. But what should be seriously > considered are the goals of certain superpowers and those in possession of > major interests in the world; those who try their best through economic > power and political influence and wide media means, to lessen the crimes and > ugliness of the nature of the Zionist regime. Here, the main issue is not > ignorance and therefore, cultural movements on their own, are not sufficient > to fight this evil phenomenon. But we should try to put an end to the misuse > of international means by the Zionists and their supporters. And by > respecting nations' demands, we should motivate the united governments to > eliminate this clear racism and step on the path of reforming international > relations 0and mechanisms with courage. > > Undoubtedly, you are all aware of the extensive efforts by the institutes of > global power towards creating a deviation on the path of the real mission of > this important conference. Unfortunately in the literature supporting the > Zionists, a clear participation and cooperation in their crimes can be > noticed. And this adds to the responsibilities of the respectful > representatives of nations in revealing this antihuman issue and improving > relations and behaviours. We should be aware that to keep a huge global > capacity, such as this conference, away from its real intentions, means > helping to continue the most hideous sense of racism. Today the necessity of > defending human rights is firstly, to defend the rights of a nation to be > free to make decisions regarding important global affairs without the > influence of certain powers; secondly, to take action to improve > international structures and relations. Therefore, this conference is the > arena of a major test and we will be judged by the world's public opinion > today and tomorrow. > > Mr Chairman, ladies and gentlemen, the world's general condition is rapidly > moving towards basic changes. Power based equations have become very weak. > The sound of the pillars of global tyranny breaking can be heard. Political > and macro economic structures are falling. Political and security crisis are > growing. And the growing global economic crisis, for the resolution of which > there is no bright horizon, makes all sorts of quantitative and quality > aspects of change on the way very impressive. I have emphasised the > necessity of getting back from the wrong path that today's absolute global > management is following and I have warned about the critical outcomes of > delaying to do so. > > Also now, in this valued conference, addressing you managers, thinkers and > all the world nations who are thirsty for peace, freedom, progress and > prosperity, I would like to say that the unjust ruling of the world is > reaching its end. This deadlock was inevitable since the logic behind this > imposed management is tyrannical. This is because the logic of the mass > movement of the world is divine, purposeful, humane and God-centred. It is a > movement which opposes any policy or plan which is not in line with the > interests of nations. Victory of truth over vice and the bright future of > humanity and the establishment of a just global system is the promise of God > and all prophets, and a common hope of all communities and generations. > Achieving such a future justifies the reason behind creation, is the belief > of all those faithful to God and the very high status of the human beings. > > Formation of a global community, the practical possibility of a common > global system materialising and finally involving thinkers, managers and > people of the world to actively and justly participate in the macro and > principle decision makings is the main path to this great destination. > > At the moment, scientific and technical capabilities as well as information > and communication technology have created a mutual and comprehensive > understanding of the global community and have created the necessary ground > for a common system to materialise. . > > Now, this is a grave responsibility that the world's scientists, elites and > officials across the world should shoulder by playing a historic role > through faith in this definite path. > > Now I want to stress on this fact that western capitalism like communism has > reached the end of its path because it does not see the world and humanity > as they are. It has tried to impose a self-constructed path and destination > and instead of paying attention to human and divine values, justice, > freedom, compassion and brotherhood it has set fierce competition for > gaining individual and collective materialistic interests as a basis for > life. > > Now we should collectively try to learn lessons from the past and understand > the necessity for correcting this path by considering today's conditions. > And on the same note and as the final word I would like to draw your > attention to two important points. > > First point: The improvement of the current international condition is > hundred per cent possible. But we should know that this cannot be achieved > without the cooperation of all the governments and nations. Therefore, we > should benefit from the capacities of international cooperation to the > maximum. My presence in this conference indicates my respect for this > important issue, and the essential issue of human rights and support for > nations' rights against the evil phenomenon of racism and cooperation with > you, the thinkers. > > Second: Considering the lack of efficiency of systems and international > political, economic, security and cultural relations is necessary. In view > of divine and humanitarian values and the true and real definition of human > beings and based on justice and respect for the rights of all human beings > across the world, confessing to the wrong management in the past and > changing the views and performances, measures should be taken to reform the > current structures. Therefore, a speedy change in the structure of the > United Nations and the elimination of the discriminatory right to veto and a > change in the financial and monetary system of the world must be on the > agenda. Obviously, the lack of understanding for the urgency of this change > will result in heavier costs due to any delay. > > My dear friends, you should know that moving in line with justice and human > dignity is like moving quickly on a stream of water. Let's not forget the > valuable elixir of love and compassion. The guarantee for a clear future for > human beings is a great asset that can keep us more aware and more hopeful > than ever before. It can enable us to create a world full of love and > blessing and can be free from poverty and hatred. We will also be able to > profit from the blessings of God and have the advantage of having a decent > management of a complete human being. > > Let us all have a share in this important issue, and hope for that bright > and beautiful day. I would like to sincerely thank the President and the UN > Secretary-General and all of you for your patience, wishing you dignity and > success.” > > *This is a BBC translation from a speech transcript supplied by the Islamic > Republic of Iran News Network, Tehran, in Persian.* > > *The speech Mr Ahmadinejad gave was different in some respects from the > draft submitted previously by the Iranians to the UN. That can be accessed > here* > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with subscribe in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> From vivek at sarai.net Wed Apr 22 13:11:57 2009 From: vivek at sarai.net (Vivek Narayanan) Date: Wed, 22 Apr 2009 13:11:57 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Sri Lanka: The dilemmas of peace activists, still strangled by simplistic rhetoric Message-ID: <49EECA45.4090101@sarai.net> http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2009/apr/15/sri-lanka-demonstration-tamil-tigers Sri Lanka's divided demonstrators Sri Lankan peace protesters, at home and abroad, are caught between the government and the Tamil Tigers Comments (67) * Malathi de Alwis The mass protests of diaspora Tamils across the globe have drawn attention to the current state of the 30-year civil war in Sri Lanka. The routing of the Liberation Tigers of Tamil Eelam (LTTE) by government (GoSL) forces has led to thousands of Tamil civilians being trapped in a "no-fire zone" along with the LTTE. The vocal protests of the diaspora contrast sharply with the deafening silence of peace activists within Sri Lanka. The Sri Lankan conflict is a complicated one with an extremely complex history. The divergent responses to the current situation must be understood in similarly nuanced ways. The well-organised and orchestrated public demonstrations belie the fact that many diaspora Tamils have been coerced into marching under LTTE flags. Many wishing to carry placards appealing to both the GoSL and the LTTE have been beaten and intimidated into marching only under anti-GoSL slogans. This has resulted in a one-sided protest campaign that ignores the fact that civilians trapped in the "no-fire zone" are held hostage by the LTTE, who shoot those seeking to escape, plant suicide bombers among escapees and conscript civilian children to fight alongside them. This has made it impossible for Sri Lankan peace activists to declare their solidarity with the demonstrators. Sri Lankan activists have also had to contend with an authoritarian GoSL which, like all modern regimes, only allows embedded journalists access to war zones and displacement camps, and also intimidates, arrests, disappears and murders those who question the legitimacy of the war. Nor does it have a clear set of political proposals that address Tamil grievances. On the first two counts, this regime is no different from its predecessors. On the third, it is a lot worse. Nevertheless, previous political proposals acceptable to peace activists have been rejected by the LTTE, leading to growing support for a military option among the general populace. This is also the only regime that has been able to make steady and successful inroads into LTTE ranks and territory. There is a desperate thirst among Sri Lankans for an end to the war and the decommissioning of a liberation organisation turned fascist. The possibility of an end to the war has created fissures among activists in the south and a re-defining of political stances. Some celebrate GoSL victories and argue that the LTTE should surrender without further jeopardising civilian lives. Others seek to mitigate war's effects through humanitarian ventures or pushing the GoSL to demilitarise IDP camps. Some denounce GoSL's recourse to militarism and continue to call for a ceasefire, despite this possibly prolonging the war. Others are too scared to speak because they will be construed to be partisan, either towards the LTTE or the GoSL. Such a context is not conducive to massed street protests. Sri Lanka seems to have reached an impasse. Though the GoSL declared a two-day ceasefire in honour of the New Year, a festival shared by both communities, the LTTE has refused to honour it and prevented civilians from leaving their areas of control. The LTTE, in turn, has requested a longer, internationally-moderated ceasefire, which the GoSL rejects on the grounds that they will use such an opportunity to re-arm and re-group, as they have done during previous ceasefires. The real need is for the formulation of a set of political proposals that will be acceptable to democratic elements in all three communities – Sinhala, Tamil and Muslim (a crucial component of this conflict, who are too often ignored). This seems like a viable challenge that can be taken up by peace activists, even if we are unable to agree on the legitimacy of the war. From shuddha at sarai.net Wed Apr 22 13:52:21 2009 From: shuddha at sarai.net (Shuddhabrata Sengupta) Date: Wed, 22 Apr 2009 13:52:21 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Iranian President Mammoud Ahmadnejad's speech at Durban Review Conference In-Reply-To: <49EEC793.4020102@sarai.net> References: <341380d00904220003k46600732k7297c91cc557e53e@mail.gmail.com> <49EEC793.4020102@sarai.net> Message-ID: <6697CF25-37A7-4DC0-B51B-F4BF4EFDDC89@sarai.net> Ahmadinijad must get the current champions trophy for being the most hilarious and ridiculous clown amongst politicians (and he has really tough competition). He is actually an even worse performance artist than he is a bad politician. Incidentally, the prepared English text of his speech, which he deviated slightly from, had the terms 'dubious and ambiguous' attached to the reference to the Holocaust. He did not dare say it, but it got out anyway, because it had been printed and distributed. I have heard that George Bush is nowadays spending his time cleaning up after his dog's litter, hopefully Ahmadinijad will join him soon regards Shuddha On 22-Apr-09, at 1:00 PM, Vivek Narayanan wrote: > What a lot of hot air! > > Vivek > > anupam chakravartty wrote: >> Ahmadinejad speech: full text >> >> *This is the full text of the speech Iranian President Mahmoud >> Ahmadinejad >> gave at the Durban Review Conference, a UN conference on racism, >> in Geneva, >> Switzerland, on Tuesday, 20th April 2009.* >> >> *Protesters interrupted the conference before Mr Ahmadinejad could >> start his >> speech. He refers to the incident in his opening sentence.* >> >> I would like to ask all honourable participants to forgive them. >> They are >> ignorant. >> >> >> In the name of God, the Merciful, the Compassionate. Thanks to >> God, the Lord >> of the worlds, and peace and praise be upon our master and >> prophet, Muhammad >> and his immaculate progeny and true followers. O God, hasten the >> reappearance of the Hidden Imam and grant him health and victory >> and make us >> his true companions and believers and those who testify to His >> rightfulness. >> >> >> Praise belongs to the just, merciful, and compassionate God. May >> God's >> blessing be upon the prophets, Adam, Noah, Abraham, Moses, Jesus, >> and the >> last prophet His Holiness Muhammad Mustafa, who called for >> monotheism, >> fraternity, kindness, human dignity, and justice. >> >> Mr Chairman, Honourable Secretary-General of the UN, Honourable High >> Commissariat for Human Rights, Ladies and Gentlemen, following the >> Durban >> anti-racism and discrimination conference, we have gathered here >> to examine >> the current situation and to find practical solutions for this >> humane and >> sacred campaign. In the past centuries, great injustice was >> inflicted on >> mankind. >> >> In the Middle Ages scholars and scientists were sentenced to >> death. And >> later on slavery and the hunting down of innocent people, >> separating them >> from their families and taking them in millions to Europe and >> America in the >> worst conditions, was popular. These were dark ages where lands were >> occupied and their sources were looted, and innocent people were >> killed and >> made homeless. Years passed until people rose. They paid a high >> price in >> order to drive occupiers out and establish independent and national >> governments; millions of people were killed. Those in power >> imposed two >> major wars in short periods of time on Europe and parts of Africa >> and Asia. >> These were wars which took about 100 million lives and resulted in >> destruction of a lot of countries and regions. Those who won these >> wars >> considered themselves conquerors of the world and considered other >> nations >> defeated. And by the imposition of oppressive laws and >> arrangements they >> ignored and violated other nations rights. >> >> Ladies and gentlemen, look at the Security Council which is the >> legacy of >> World War I and II. Based on what logic have they been given the >> right to >> veto? With which human and divine value is this logic compatible? >> Justice, >> equality in the eye of law and human dignity or discrimination, >> injustice, >> violation of human rights and belittling the majority of nations and >> countries? This Council is the most supreme decision-making centre >> for >> maintaining peace and security in the world. >> >> When there is legal discrimination and the law-making centre is a >> source of >> bullying and force instead of justice and fairness, how can one >> expect to >> achieve justice and peace? Seeking power and selfishness is the >> source of >> racism, discrimination, aggression and tyranny. Today many racists >> condemn >> racism in their slogans and speeches but when some powerful >> countries give >> themselves the right to make decisions for other countries, using >> their >> discretion, and based on their own interests, they can easily >> trample on all >> rules and human values. As they have already proven. >> >> After the Second World War, by exploiting the holocaust and under the >> pretext of protecting the Jews they made a nation homeless with >> military >> expeditions and invasion. They transferred various groups of >> people from >> America, Europe and other countries to this land. They established a >> completely racist government in the occupied Palestinian >> territories. And in >> fact, under the pretext of making up for damages resulting from >> racism in >> Europe, they established the most aggressive, racist country in >> another >> territory, i.e. Palestine. >> >> The Security Council endorsed this usurper regime and for 60 years >> constantly defended it and let it commit any kind of crime. >> >> Worse than this is that some Western governments and America are >> committed >> to support genocidal racists while others condemn the bombardment of >> innocent human beings, the occupation of their land and the >> disasters that >> took place in Gaza. Even before they kept silent, not responding >> to all the >> crimes of that regime, and supported it. Dear friends, ladies and >> gentlemen, >> what has been the source of recent wars such as the Americans' >> attack on >> Iraq or the wide military expedition in Afghanistan? Has it been >> anything >> else than the selfishness of the American government of the time >> and the >> pressures by those in possession of wealth and power to expand >> influence and >> hegemony, support weapon manufacturers, destroy a great culture >> that is >> thousands of years old, destroying possible and potentials risks >> by the >> countries of the region against the occupying Quds regime, and >> looting the >> energy resources of the Iraqi people? >> >> In fact why were one million people dead and injured and a few >> million >> people forced to leave their homeland? Why were hundreds of >> billions of >> dollars worth of damage inflicted on the Iraqi people and hundreds of >> billions of dollars of costs for the military invasion imposed on the >> American people and America's allies? Was attacking Iraq not >> orchestrated by >> the Zionists and their allies in the previous ruling government of >> America >> which was on the one hand in power and on the other the owner of arms >> manufacturing companies? >> >> Did peace, security and prosperity return to Afghanistan by military >> intervention? America and its allies were not even able to stop the >> production of narcotics and during their presence it increased >> several fold. >> The main question is this: What was the role of the previous >> ruling system >> in America and its allies? Were they the representatives of the world >> nations? Were they elected by the world nations? Do they have >> representation >> by the world nations to interfere in the affairs of all parts of >> the world >> and especially our region? Don't these actions, the occupation of >> Iraq and >> Afghanistan, count as examples of selfishness, racism, >> discrimination and >> violating the dignity and independence of other nations? >> >> Ladies and gentlemen, who are the people in charge of the crisis- >> hit economy >> of the world? Where did the crisis start? Did it start in Africa >> and Asia or >> American and then Europe and their allies? >> >> For a long time, using their political influence, they [West] >> imposed unfair >> economic laws on international economic transactions. They set up >> financial >> and monetary systems without provisions of international >> supervision and >> imposed those systems on countries that did not have the smallest >> role to >> play in the processes and policies adopted. >> >> They do not even allow their own nations to supervise. By taking away >> morality from their actions, they have established laws in a way >> that they >> serve the interests of certain powerful people and capitalists. By >> giving a >> specific definition of free market and competition, they took away >> many >> opportunities from others and imposed their problems on others. >> >> Today, with dozens of thousands of billions of dollars of debt and >> thousands >> of billions of dollars of budget deficit, those waves of crisis >> have come >> back to them. >> >> Even today in order to improve the situation, they have started >> injecting >> hundred billions of dollars of unsupported money from the pockets >> of their >> citizens and other nations into banks and companies and financial >> markets >> which were close to bankruptcy and they have made their people >> even more >> indebted and they have made the problem more complicated. >> >> They are thinking of maintaining their power and wealth. And the >> people of >> the world and even their own people are of no value to them. Mr >> President, >> ladies and gentlemen, the true root of racism is the lack of human >> understanding as God's chosen creatures and deviation from the >> true path of >> human life and human missions in creation. Due to negligence in >> worshipping >> God with awareness and pondering on the philosophy of life and the >> path >> towards human perfection - which leads to the natural outcome of >> being >> committed to divine values and mankind - the horizon of human >> insight has >> declined. And limited and temporary interests became the criteria of >> evaluation and actions by human beings. Therefore, the seeds of >> evil power >> took their shape and by neglecting fair chances for others' >> growth, it added >> to the boundaries of its development. >> >> In such a way that it changed to an ugly and uncontrollable racism >> that >> today it is threatening the global peace as the most dangerous >> factor. And >> it is an obstacle on the way of achieving peaceful life in the world. >> Undoubtedly, racism should be recognised as the symbol of >> ignorance of the >> depth of history and a sign of dogmatism against mankind's general >> growth. >> Therefore, we should look for the signs of racism under conditions >> and >> situations in a society where poverty of knowledge and lack of >> understanding >> would be spread. Therefore, the main means of fighting such >> symptoms is to >> promote general awareness and deepening public understanding >> towards the >> philosophy of mankind's existence and the truth about the human- >> oriented >> world. Its requirement or outcome is a return to spiritual and >> ethical >> values and human virtues and finally the belief in God. The global >> society >> should start a united cultural movement for enlightening certain >> suffering >> and undeveloped societies as much as possible and uproot this >> hideous and >> evil phenomenon. >> >> But dear friends, today the human society is facing a kind of >> racism which >> has an ugliness that has completely distorted the honour of >> mankind at the >> verge of the third millennium and it has made the global society >> shameful. >> The global Zionism is the complete symbol of racism, which with >> unreal >> reliance on religion has tried to misuse the religious beliefs of >> some >> unaware people and hide its ugly face. But what should be seriously >> considered are the goals of certain superpowers and those in >> possession of >> major interests in the world; those who try their best through >> economic >> power and political influence and wide media means, to lessen the >> crimes and >> ugliness of the nature of the Zionist regime. Here, the main issue >> is not >> ignorance and therefore, cultural movements on their own, are not >> sufficient >> to fight this evil phenomenon. But we should try to put an end to >> the misuse >> of international means by the Zionists and their supporters. And by >> respecting nations' demands, we should motivate the united >> governments to >> eliminate this clear racism and step on the path of reforming >> international >> relations 0and mechanisms with courage. >> >> Undoubtedly, you are all aware of the extensive efforts by the >> institutes of >> global power towards creating a deviation on the path of the real >> mission of >> this important conference. Unfortunately in the literature >> supporting the >> Zionists, a clear participation and cooperation in their crimes >> can be >> noticed. And this adds to the responsibilities of the respectful >> representatives of nations in revealing this antihuman issue and >> improving >> relations and behaviours. We should be aware that to keep a huge >> global >> capacity, such as this conference, away from its real intentions, >> means >> helping to continue the most hideous sense of racism. Today the >> necessity of >> defending human rights is firstly, to defend the rights of a >> nation to be >> free to make decisions regarding important global affairs without the >> influence of certain powers; secondly, to take action to improve >> international structures and relations. Therefore, this conference >> is the >> arena of a major test and we will be judged by the world's public >> opinion >> today and tomorrow. >> >> Mr Chairman, ladies and gentlemen, the world's general condition >> is rapidly >> moving towards basic changes. Power based equations have become >> very weak. >> The sound of the pillars of global tyranny breaking can be heard. >> Political >> and macro economic structures are falling. Political and security >> crisis are >> growing. And the growing global economic crisis, for the >> resolution of which >> there is no bright horizon, makes all sorts of quantitative and >> quality >> aspects of change on the way very impressive. I have emphasised the >> necessity of getting back from the wrong path that today's >> absolute global >> management is following and I have warned about the critical >> outcomes of >> delaying to do so. >> >> Also now, in this valued conference, addressing you managers, >> thinkers and >> all the world nations who are thirsty for peace, freedom, progress >> and >> prosperity, I would like to say that the unjust ruling of the >> world is >> reaching its end. This deadlock was inevitable since the logic >> behind this >> imposed management is tyrannical. This is because the logic of the >> mass >> movement of the world is divine, purposeful, humane and God- >> centred. It is a >> movement which opposes any policy or plan which is not in line >> with the >> interests of nations. Victory of truth over vice and the bright >> future of >> humanity and the establishment of a just global system is the >> promise of God >> and all prophets, and a common hope of all communities and >> generations. >> Achieving such a future justifies the reason behind creation, is >> the belief >> of all those faithful to God and the very high status of the human >> beings. >> >> Formation of a global community, the practical possibility of a >> common >> global system materialising and finally involving thinkers, >> managers and >> people of the world to actively and justly participate in the >> macro and >> principle decision makings is the main path to this great >> destination. >> >> At the moment, scientific and technical capabilities as well as >> information >> and communication technology have created a mutual and comprehensive >> understanding of the global community and have created the >> necessary ground >> for a common system to materialise. . >> >> Now, this is a grave responsibility that the world's scientists, >> elites and >> officials across the world should shoulder by playing a historic role >> through faith in this definite path. >> >> Now I want to stress on this fact that western capitalism like >> communism has >> reached the end of its path because it does not see the world and >> humanity >> as they are. It has tried to impose a self-constructed path and >> destination >> and instead of paying attention to human and divine values, justice, >> freedom, compassion and brotherhood it has set fierce competition for >> gaining individual and collective materialistic interests as a >> basis for >> life. >> >> Now we should collectively try to learn lessons from the past and >> understand >> the necessity for correcting this path by considering today's >> conditions. >> And on the same note and as the final word I would like to draw your >> attention to two important points. >> >> First point: The improvement of the current international >> condition is >> hundred per cent possible. But we should know that this cannot be >> achieved >> without the cooperation of all the governments and nations. >> Therefore, we >> should benefit from the capacities of international cooperation to >> the >> maximum. My presence in this conference indicates my respect for this >> important issue, and the essential issue of human rights and >> support for >> nations' rights against the evil phenomenon of racism and >> cooperation with >> you, the thinkers. >> >> Second: Considering the lack of efficiency of systems and >> international >> political, economic, security and cultural relations is necessary. >> In view >> of divine and humanitarian values and the true and real definition >> of human >> beings and based on justice and respect for the rights of all >> human beings >> across the world, confessing to the wrong management in the past and >> changing the views and performances, measures should be taken to >> reform the >> current structures. Therefore, a speedy change in the structure of >> the >> United Nations and the elimination of the discriminatory right to >> veto and a >> change in the financial and monetary system of the world must be >> on the >> agenda. Obviously, the lack of understanding for the urgency of >> this change >> will result in heavier costs due to any delay. >> >> My dear friends, you should know that moving in line with justice >> and human >> dignity is like moving quickly on a stream of water. Let's not >> forget the >> valuable elixir of love and compassion. The guarantee for a clear >> future for >> human beings is a great asset that can keep us more aware and more >> hopeful >> than ever before. It can enable us to create a world full of love and >> blessing and can be free from poverty and hatred. We will also be >> able to >> profit from the blessings of God and have the advantage of having >> a decent >> management of a complete human being. >> >> Let us all have a share in this important issue, and hope for that >> bright >> and beautiful day. I would like to sincerely thank the President >> and the UN >> Secretary-General and all of you for your patience, wishing you >> dignity and >> success.” >> >> *This is a BBC translation from a speech transcript supplied by >> the Islamic >> Republic of Iran News Network, Tehran, in Persian.* >> >> *The speech Mr Ahmadinejad gave was different in some respects >> from the >> draft submitted previously by the Iranians to the UN. That can be >> accessed >> here* >> _________________________________________ >> reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. >> Critiques & Collaborations >> To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with >> subscribe in the subject header. >> To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list >> List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> > > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > subscribe in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> Shuddhabrata Sengupta The Sarai Programme at CSDS Raqs Media Collective shuddha at sarai.net www.sarai.net www.raqsmediacollective.net From sub_sengupta at yahoo.co.in Wed Apr 22 14:07:31 2009 From: sub_sengupta at yahoo.co.in (subhrodip sengupta) Date: Wed, 22 Apr 2009 14:07:31 +0530 (IST) Subject: [Reader-list] (no subject) In-Reply-To: <5f4dddc70904211039y22659ce0uc0503f0530c8865c@mail.gmail.com> References: <274320.9344.qm@web94701.mail.in2.yahoo.com> <5f4dddc70904211039y22659ce0uc0503f0530c8865c@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <751257.32485.qm@web94704.mail.in2.yahoo.com> yes you are right, it's a  b.Errors are errors, I had a union set in mind whoch means a or b.   Thanks for correcting me, at the right time.     didn't read the previous post, but i think there is something wrong with the way you are trying to reason. A and B is not the same as NOT A implies B. maybe u meant A OR B? hany. reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. Critiques & Collaborations To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with subscribe in the subject header. To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list List archive: ________________________________ Cricket on your mind? Visit the ultimate cricket website. Enter http://beta.cricket.yahoo.com From phadkeshilpa at gmail.com Wed Apr 22 14:14:49 2009 From: phadkeshilpa at gmail.com (Shilpa Phadke) Date: Wed, 22 Apr 2009 14:14:49 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Fwd: Holding a mirror to the MIRROR In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: http://www.thehoot.org/web/home/story.php?storyid=3796&mod=1&pg=1§ionId=25&valid=true Holding a mirror to the MIRROR *Was it a peer support to an offending newspaper because others too have been careless – even reckless – in how they approach a story?* MAHESH VIJAPURKAR wonders why other media did not report the demonstration against the TOI. Posted Monday, Apr 20 01:00:12, 2009 Page 12 of the April 18 edition of *MUMBAI MIRROR* had an entire page devoted to criticism of its reportage of the alleged gang rape of a foreign student of a reputed institution in Mumbai. The headline was sensational, as sensational as the reportage that was objected to by ten readers whose views were published: Mirror is sensational * (AND OUR READERS DON'T MEAN IT IN A GOOD WAY). The newspaper admitted that it has been "flooded with letters asking if it was indeed necessary to run the statement of the victim, a public document, in all its graphic detail." The questions raised, it said in the introduction to the set of ten views was that its intention was not to sensationalize and harm the interests of the victim. It went on to admit that, judging by the reader response, the newspaper had "misjudged" and apologized for offending reader sensibilities. That was indeed a big climb down. The space accorded to the story, the prominence, despite the location being an inside page, was commendable. Obviously, the *MUMBAI MIRROR *made only partial amends for its error and that is not enough. It had not named the victim but left no doubt as to where she could be found – a student of Tata Institute of Social Sciences (TISS), a white and her age. Even in a large city like Mumbai, that was enough set of coordinates to spot her. They pointed out to the *Times of India *group that Section 228 (A) of the Indian Penal Code does not allow disclosure of the identity of such victims. Even if the person is not directly named, but sufficient details are provided as to the name of the institution etc. that would amount to assisting in zeroing in on the victim's identity. The demonstrators had a specific point to make: the newspaper apologized to the "sensibilities of the readers" and not the victim. It owed such an apology to her. That is why it did not soothe the community of women who rightly decided to take the issue further. The day this item was published, eight women's groups, including female students from the TISS demonstrated before the offices of the *Times of India* which owns the *MUMBAI MIRROR.* ** ** ** Though this demonstration was directed against the*MUMBAI MIRROR *specifically, its import has to be digested by all the media. Strangely, this demonstration was not reported in any of the half a dozen big Mumbai newspapers I read everyday, including Marathi newspapers, the next day. Television news channels were of course preoccupied with the election trivia, including their exclusives like Priyanka Gandhi-Vadera's views on her mother and brother as if that mattered a lot. Was it a peer support to an offending newspaper because others too have been careless – even reckless – in how they approach a story? Or was it the fear that if they too point out the mistake of another, the fingers could be pointed at them next time? Several newspapers have had not minded naming the victims, including minor girls, of heinous offences. There is scarce a newspaper which has not offended in this fashion at one time or the other and got away with it. To my mind, a report on the demonstration would have sensitized the news crews of all publication to the need to be careful while reporting such cases. The exception, however, was *The Hindu* which carried a story with a picture and abundant quotes from those demonstrating before the *Times of India* building and one is glad that it did. After all, newspapers tend to forget that victims have their rights too and that one is protection of their identities. It is expected that child victims and women victims, regardless of their age are not to have their names or pictures published. It goes beyond mere protection of privacy; it hinges on how the society would react to them when it gets out that they were raped. In this context, it has to be pointed out that newspapers, at least in Mumbai, need to curb their excesses when reporting crime. As pointed out earlier in a comment on use of language, I had pointed out how even the minor precaution of the use of the word *alleged* is lacking in newspapers though it helps disclaim responsibility to an extent for retailing a view or fact of which they are not aware of first hand. This is minimal requirement, we were told in our journalism schools in the early 70s. For the past few weeks, however, the *Times of India* has started using 'alleged' in italics which is a welcome thing. News media, especially and including the television news channels, have a tendency to be the prosecutor and the judge rolled into one and often I have heard from the journalistic community to which I belong that "it happened, so why not report it"? It is not as simple as that. The immense damage such an attitude causes the hapless victims are so enormous that often an apology does not mitigate the hurt caused. It is true that often the victims are people who may never even have managed to read what is said about them so the question of them seeking a retraction or filing a suit does not seem even remotely possible. One of the reasons is lack of appreciation of their own rights or ability to seek redress directly or via the court of law. But that does not allow the media houses to run amok: it has a responsibility because it is a fourth pillar. Often, they tend to forget that. *mvijapurkar at gmail.com* From sub_sengupta at yahoo.co.in Wed Apr 22 14:23:38 2009 From: sub_sengupta at yahoo.co.in (subhrodip sengupta) Date: Wed, 22 Apr 2009 14:23:38 +0530 (IST) Subject: [Reader-list] Lets be clear first Message-ID: <20196.25323.qm@web94703.mail.in2.yahoo.com> ok back to the woods. need more corrections. Words and Identity: I think one has to proceed step by step while I was talking about the modus operandi of riots caused during rathajatra, some people said the reverse also happens. Indeed is that for how long can human society accept any purpoted harm other than self defence? Whether 'Hindu' means a specific belief or community. If you say community and define some specific groups your opponent and restrict yourself unless they surrender, then you are not 'open'. If due to some mishap, the word is used to define Ancientism or some specific faith within the country, a set of rules you can not choose from example visit any other Nation,even if you have more interests in your motherland, then they are Fascist! You know the worst part all these crimes, the filth from any side prove one thing ------ This is again the age old struggle for the Nation as much extensive and deep as possible, certainly NOT for it's people. Fight by commoners would be revolution, and thats on nobodie's agenda. This may not be in interest of descendants or present, but definitely a source of power, a large economy and worlds thir largest population, and seventh largest territory!And none is ready to accept one thing To ERR iS HUMAN, Human Beings commit crime and before that they could belong to any faith or party, by hiding them we malign the entire community. By continuously denying or worse, resorting to Chauvinism, HUm Kab tak Chup baithenge, WE CRIMINALISE THE SYSTEM, which must put an end to wrongdoers, A BAD SYSTEM IS RISKY TO ITSELF A BAD KING IS NEVER RISKY TO THE SYSTEM. If your leader is corrupted, remove him, at least you can do the same to followers instead of defending and denying. Thats where we find it difficult to believe every word you said and try to find hidden implications or conspiracies. What is individual is a set of character unique or at most differentiable. By a conglomerate or a group we can not deny individuality by defn. Or avoid the notion altogether for a and will be negated if not a but b is true, or vice versa. Thus after this how can some deny indivuduality. By meaning double words, like why not replace hindutva by bharatiyata, which is also a hindu word but not restricted to one faith.. we are actually wanting to wage a battle for the nation never the people who reside in it, because some of them are not us but traitors, similarly some would think the same for their own people. There are no absolutes, things must be taken with a pinch of salt and at times a lot of pepper too. By dwelving in History and accusing each other of murder we are branding each of us as murderers. Either Say we want Democracy or Say we do not. Trust me, democracy of billions may be a bluff. But state this & what you intend to do next, to the people, how it will change thir life, for rights and betterment can be done by a dictator and human rights and culture smashed brutally by an elected setup. Where both PM candidates say the same thing which they claim is unique is dangerous and they say a truth fighting for nation, not it's people. Under certain conditions only when you recognise it implies else it does not. The criminal must be identified but by the Society and not King & off course action speaks louder than words, specially where unconstitutional and non-enforable remarks are made. The Better Evil game is subjective and as long as vested interests argue for them, they always do, ETERNAL. So Lets avoid it. On election eve where a lot of things are being said including the precarious presumption VOTE! ________________________________ Now surf faster and smarter ! Check out the new Firefox 3 - Yahoo! Edition * Click here! Own a website.Get an unlimited package.Pay next to nothing.*Go to http://in.business.yahoo.com/ From kmvenuannur at gmail.com Wed Apr 22 14:27:07 2009 From: kmvenuannur at gmail.com (Venugopalan K M) Date: Wed, 22 Apr 2009 14:27:07 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Brahminical dominence ? In-Reply-To: <61164a90904212310x745fa773k4094027432b2420c@mail.gmail.com> References: <61164a90904210401k462156f8u40f90cea6a76c155@mail.gmail.com> <1f9180970904210520i7b46f3der639cf53ef5821d0@mail.gmail.com> <61164a90904212310x745fa773k4094027432b2420c@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <1f9180970904220157m18b3e581q41c51526fa881c0c@mail.gmail.com> >"..."As to Rama Rajya, let it be remembered that Rama was kshatriya king who administered his subjects wth care and concern for public opinion. A doubt about his own wife as expressed by a subject made him take the harsh step to send his wife to the forests when she was pregnent, to the Ashram. Todays leaders do not care for the public opinion as much as they did , but generate public opinion thru media and other means for their agendas, is my perception".." But that is excatly what I would rather take objection to not just your concept of 'Rajya' but also its iconic hero, Ram. Please excuse me when I say that this vulgar expression of "prajahitham"(public opinion) against a poor woman is nothing different from its newer versions of "hithams" of Sri Ram Senes! While it is repugnant to humanity, seen even by the standards of ancient monarchy it is much more unacceptable to the standards of human rights of our age. It would be a grave instance of atrocity perpetrated against women with impunity by the kings in the name of 'public opinion'. What sort of king was he to grow suspicious of the chastity of his queen lived in forced exile , and yet to take recourse to 'public opinion' (most probably manufactured) to justify throwing her to fire? What bloody business this poor dhobi family had to suspect Sita as a bad woman? In my understanding, this is nothing but projection of source of one's own ill feeling to someone else, skulking away from taking up the moral responsibility. The kind of relationship the king had with the queen, perhaps might have gone to deep trouble even otherwise. Well, this tendency to dupe people by spreading cock and bull stories about dharma in an effort to justify the most grotesque violence against women and the lower caste people might be part of the essence of Ramarajya of the past as well as the present, and this is what many people call Brahmanism. Whatever you call this, you are supporting this and suggesting that 'Rama Rajya ' would help us cure of our ills. The headache is yours and not of others who don't want to believe these parables over laden with instruments of moral policing. Regards, Venu . 22, 2009 at 11:40 AM, Rajen Uppinangadi wrote: > Hi, > >     Venu; > >   Such general sweeping comments do not hold water in pluralistic society > like this free India. To condemn the "brahminical" thinking itself is > absurd, as brahminical way of thinking is for "sarve jana sukhino bhavanthu, > in Vasudaiva kutumbakam. > >   While it is true that in every faith, the women are subjugated, denied > education and are less privileged with rights and the accent is more on > their duties, it is absurd to say that hindu way of life encourages such in > equality, for if it was so, gargi and maithreyi would not have had the place > in the arguments for the society.The marad killings would not have happened > when children and women were massacred in your backyard of Kerala. Shah Bano > case would not have been the instance to talk about where livelihood was > denied for a woman.Compared to other faiths, hindu way of life has > exceptional place for women in modern living, unlike taliban which shoots > down the couple if found walking together, the mullas would not proclaim > fathwas for the saving of a father for raping his own daughter. With > changing times, it is reforms that have taken place in hindu way of life > from within religion rather than outside, thanks to persons like Raja > Rammohan Roy, Jyothi Phule , and many other reformists, in modern times even > Ambedkar has contributed his might to reforms in the way society treats the > oppressed. But the political will to reforms in society has to come from > within the society as no amounts of laws can change as seen in Dowry act, > and the dowry menace is flourishing in all faiths.In fact, the roman > catholic weddings in Kerala are notorious for the wedding and lavish dory > angle to them, as clergy would bless the couple who part with substantially > dirty, obscene amounts for such blessing of an arch bishop, as was told to > me by a bishop friend. > > So, to generalise the menace of oppression only to one way of life, hindu is > not only reflects the general trend of condemning whatever is hindu, as > brahminical. As to Rama Rajya, let it be remembered that Rama was kshatriya > king who administered his subjects wth care and concern for public opinion. > A doubt about his own wife as expressed by a subject made him take the harsh > step to send his wife to the forests when she was pregnent, to the Ashram. > Todays leaders do not care for the public opinion as much as they did , but > generate public opinion thru media and other means for their agendas, is my > perception. > > Regards, > > Rajen. > > On Tue, Apr 21, 2009 at 5:50 PM, Venugopalan K M > wrote: >> >> Dear Rajen, >> >> By adopting such a position on Brahmanical and Brahmanism, one will stand >> to lose the very usefulness of this important concept. As you were stating >> it has less to do with propagating hate than understanding the exceptionally >> institutionalized and ritualized  hate in the social and cultural life of >> India. >> This is sure to  raise lot of other questions: Why, for example  after the >> happening of the Khairlanji in September 2006 {almost the entire people of a >> village participate in the act of parading naked,raping,(women),killing and >> mutilating the bodies of the 4 victims who were members of a dalit family >> (converted to Budhism) }, the entire media kept silence for about one month? >> So , an understanding of  Brahmanism together with  Brahmanical ways of >> thinking,  not only does not talk of  Brahmans as persons but more as a >> collective and  typically  negative attitude. It is characterized by >> defending privileges with respect to the ascending order of caste and >> denying equality; significantly women of all castes are automatically >> considered inferior to their male counterparts(this is also seen in every >> other religion; but practices of cruelty to widows ,women not giving birth >> to to male offsprings, not able to consummate marriage etc,etc are viewed >> with special contempt in the brahmanical Hinduism).The extremely negative >> attitude to change or reform is a direct result of a desire to protect the >> system of privileges to the exclusion of others. These are generally what >> are considered as traits associated with Brahmanism.Unfortunately, majority >> of victims of this system of heirarchy are ideologically co-opted to it; >> they are not expected to doubt the system which is has been taught to them >> as divinely ordained.They are expected to just obey  without grumbles and >> get better off in the future birth.(Chathrvarnam maya srushtam guna karma >> vibhagasa- The system has been created by me according to your past karma >> and your qualities and just do your caste-ordained duties-this is the >> message of Bhagvan in Gita (Ch IX verse 32 ?..I don't remember it correctly) >> I'm not suggesting that every person believing in the Hindu scriptures and >> the Gita would support mass murders and ritualistic killings of dalits as >> happened in khairlanji..not that the media always will attempt to cover up >> such incidents.To be certain, in the media controlled by the upper caste >> Hindus,there is always a tendency to underplay the unpleasant factors >> related with caste. Gandhi was a great admirer and interpretor of Gita and >> yet he was assassinated by Godse, who was a fanatic adherent of >> Brahmanism.But even Gandhi believed in a Ramarajya of his own notion..so are >> the less enlightened 'Hindu' masses  to a greater or lesser degree in >> denying equality to women and lower castes, the very victims of >> discriminations included.Then, not to speak of the tendency to resist >> reservations and to monopolize knowledge and power by a minority. Certainly, >> the print media dominated by the upper caste plays a significant role  in >> perpetuating the bias against the under privileged.The internet and the >> electronic media at a more globalized level, are able to challenge this >> privilege of the upper caste elites in  significant ways. >> Regards, >> Venu. >> >> Regards, >> Venu. >> >> >> On Tue, Apr 21, 2009 at 4:31 PM, Rajen Uppinangadi >> wrote: >>> >>> Hi, >>> >>>     Venu, >>> >>>     List is at times, makes up for the surprise packages for all with >>> undertones of "caste"  and is casted with caste as theme of hate, if one >>> post talks of twice born as brahmins, another talks of brahminical >>> domination of media, which are again myths to say the least, if otherwise it >>> is meant to be "learned" are brahmins, knowledgeable   "caste", then may be >>> it is acceptable but still as we strive for togetherness above the caste and >>> faith conundrums of hate, it is really ammusing that of all you start with >>> this theme of hate on the basi of caste.? >>> >>>   To illustrate, Mr. Kancha Illayya, regular columnist, who takes up >>> issues of oppressed is a brahmin by his domination in media with the issues, >>> just as sage Vishwamitra who gave the most potent manthra, Gayathri, is >>> brahmin by his work, not by birth.? But contrary examples are also are >>> visible in society, where by birth some are brahmins, but behaviour is that >>> of worse than  anyone, like the Dr. Murli manohar Joshi, in his acts and >>> utterances.? Again, a journalist and lecturer in Physics., Dr. Joshi, who >>> blindly follows the rituals without knowing the reasons behind such rituals, >>> is again worse off even as brahmin born, as birth does not give the right to >>> oppress others.? For example, the meaning of twice born is that once the >>> child is born, at the tender age of around 12 years, he is vowed to go for >>> higher studies to Benares, and the trip being in olden days, hazardous, it >>> was presumed to be secong birth to undertake such a long journey for >>> education, times have changed with chools imparting education at hop, skip >>> and jump distances from homes these days.? >>> >>>   As to media and media houses, most of them are run atleast in Karnataka >>> by Idigas, or theeyas, or known in slang as toddy tappers, so the education >>> has changed everything, let us come out of this caste fixation, judge the >>> works rather than the caste.Visual media channels are again run by >>> individuals who know how to run the business with trps, news is not what >>> viewers want, but what the channels dish out as views in news in this age of >>> info-tainment. Otherwise how do you explain the anchors and their behaviour >>> with type of presentation of "news" compared to western media, where anchors >>> are better dressed with least exposure of made up face and bodies.? >>> >>> Regards, >>> >>> Rajen. >>> >>> >> >> >> >> -- >> http://venukm.blogspot.com/ > > -- http://venukm.blogspot.com/ From kauladityaraj at gmail.com Wed Apr 22 15:03:31 2009 From: kauladityaraj at gmail.com (Aditya Raj Kaul) Date: Wed, 22 Apr 2009 15:03:31 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Malegaon blast accused Sadhvi Pragya assaulted Message-ID: <6353c690904220233s1ed214b5g1c6568878e347414@mail.gmail.com> Malegaon blast accused Sadhvi Pragya assaulted 21 Apr 2009, 2058 hrs IST, IANS MUMBAI: Sadhvi Pragya, a prime accused in the Malegaon blasts case, was assaulted by a fellow inmateat Byculla Jail and sustained injuries to her face, nose and neck, she has said in a complaint filed in a court on Tuesday. Pragya's advocate G. Sovani said that he had moved an application before the Maharashtra Control of Organised Crime Act (MCOCA) court, seeking to file a private complaint in the matter. Additional Session Judge M.R. Puranik of the MCOCA court granted her plea. She plans to file a complaint before the Mazagaon Metropolitan Court on Wednesday. According to Sovani, on March 26 Sadhvi Pragya had been admitted to the Sir J.J. Hospital for treatment. After her discharge April 15, she was shifted to the Byculla Jail. The following day, an inmate in the jail, Mumtaz Sheikh, abused her in foul language and even threatened to throw her out of the prison, Sovani claimed. Mumtaz, detained under the Maharashtra Prevention of Dangerous Activities Act, repeated her behaviour following which Sadhvi Pragya complained to the jailor. On Monday, while the inmates were proceeding for lunch, Mumtaz assaulted her with a food bowl. Sovani said his client sustained minor injuries on the face, nose and neck, compelling her to lodge an assault complaint. From kshmendra2005 at yahoo.com Wed Apr 22 15:34:35 2009 From: kshmendra2005 at yahoo.com (Kshmendra Kaul) Date: Wed, 22 Apr 2009 03:04:35 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Reader-list] Why do Schools and Colleges in India Kill? In-Reply-To: <341380d00904210826g590b7b66q8d181306f874e649@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <687335.99800.qm@web57207.mail.re3.yahoo.com> Dear Anupam   Thank you for your comments.   I am neither journalist nor philosopher nor social anthropologist nor historian. I have an attitude of looking at issues in a simplified manner. You are right about that.     As an Engineer (as is the case with a Doctor also), any troubleshooting analysis of a break-down is for me a question of identifying the foundational element that is dysfunctional. Rectify that and you have creditable results. Depending upon, at what stage it has been identified and rectified you might have other consequential damages that need to be addressed.   Shuddha's question was "   Why is this murderous authoritarianism so prevalent in places of education in India. Why do students and teachers behave like executioners and impose so much violence on those weaker or smaller or younger than them?"   I read that as implying widespread malaises. I would agree with that even if it was not so implied.   If it is widespread then it is a systemic failure.   I have suggested that this 'murderous authoritarianism' and behaving " like executioners and impose so much violence on those weaker or smaller or younger than them" is not confined to attitudes found in "ragging" or "abuse by teachers" alone but permeates as attitudes prevailing in very many other aspects of our lives (in India). A larger and more widespread systemic failure.   I have no essential conflict with the reasons you have provided though I am not sure whether "majoritarianism" (of those who rag), and the Authoritarianism of Teachers cannot be also read as "fiefdomism" and "feudalism". Interpretations.   So whatever be the firefighting procedures that may be suggested for preventing abusive "ragging" and "teacher behaviour", to my mind the wider-spread systemic failure needs to be paid attention to which would encompass both of these aberrational behaviours and many many more exploitative scenarios.   Hence my stress on "Environment of Justice" (that is available at every level of every sphere of our lives whether public or private) which also includes in itself "Delivery of Justice" (whether through Courts of Law or institutional provisioning) so that there is "Accountability" of those who have been vested with "Rights, Authority and Power."   I suggest again that if you think about this you will see this as automatically addressing 'abusive groupism and majoritarianism' of the raggers and the "frustrations" of Teachers that lead to their aberrational behaviour.   But I do understand your judging what I had written as 'sweeping generalisations'.   Firefighting on a case to case basis is in any case not an option but a necessity.   Kshmendra   --- On Tue, 4/21/09, anupam chakravartty wrote: From: anupam chakravartty Subject: Re: [Reader-list] Why do Schools and Colleges in India Kill? To: "sarai list" Date: Tuesday, April 21, 2009, 8:56 PM Dear Kshmendra, We have this tendency to simplify things around us for better understanding of the issues. But what amazes me is the clarity with which one can simplify even the most complex issues. My understanding of ragging in colleges and corporal punishments in schools is somewhat different from yours in how you connect fiefdom and feudalism, colonial past and other such things with this one issue about schools and colleges and the kind of abuses that goes on. Feudalism and fiefdom may not be connected with what goes on in the schools and colleges at all. In colleges, instances of ragging related incidents started in the latter half of 1980s. If we say that it was feudalism and fiefdom that assumed modern avatars such as the one stated by you, then perhaps we are ignoring the fact that there were also phases, say from 1950s to 70s, when incidents of ragging or violence inflicted on students by teachers and seniors were not reported. There are two possibilities here: it could be that either these instances were not reported and kept under the wraps to avoid social stigma or because of the peer pressure or feudalism and fiefdom led to the birth of the reactionary politics in the colleges and schools. It is a scary thought, but if I were to jot down the instances that happened in the past in colleges especially it starts with groupism. A college hostel with a majority of students believing in one common idea would pounce on someone who is slightly different. I am sure majoritarianism especially encountered in colleges and schools are not the same thing as feudalism and fiefdom. In case of the schools, the condition of the teachers is worse. There are certain states in India, where teachers do not get for months. Moreover, there is no such incentive for being a teacher, till the person starts coaching classes or some other way of earning the money. However, it doesn’t mean that a teacher can hang the student. But frustrations stems from the teacher dealing with a large number of kids (as teacher-student ratio in several schools especially the government ones are skewed) in the class. Our schools (again I am not talking about elite schools) resemble hatcheries, which was not the case few decades back. In our sweeping generalisations, I just hope, we forget about these instances. Regards Anupam On 4/19/09, Kshmendra Kaul wrote: > > Dear Shuddha > > Allow me to share some simplistic thoughts on this. > > What we see reflected in such instances from educational institutions is > the feudalism and fiefdomism that is rooted in almost every aspect of our > lives in India. They are in myriad forms but still have all the > exploitative aspects that existed a few hundred years back. > > Feudalism became instutionalised and networked in India during the colonial > rule. It admirably served the purpose of both Rule and Revenue. > > Post 1947, attempts were made to erase out Agricultural Feudalism. There > was some success but it continued to some extent through the Benami system. > > At the same time Feudalism and Fiefdomism saw itself cloned and being > employed in various spheres and utilised for purposes of exercising control > or exacting monies outside legal domains. > > Educational Institutions are just one such area. > > Post 1947, the economic policies that allowed Private Enterprise but gave > them some protection against competition led in due course to Feudalism of > Business Houses. > > At the same time, the economic policies of Licence Raj created the > Feudalism of the Bureaucracy > > Ironically, the adoption of Free Market Economy policies in recent years, > without appropriate protection for small businesses has again resulted in > the Feudalism of Business Houses. > > While at one time 'workers' suffered exploitative employment, ensuring of > Labour Rights in some areas, predominantly Larger Industrial and other > enterprises saw the emergence of the Feudalism of the Workers. > > The Feudalism of the Police continued unchecked through the decades as did > that of the Revenue Officers. They were truly the soldiers of the > interconnected Feudal Empires. > > Interestingly, those who should have been the rebels against such Feudalism > themselves succumbed to it and we got the Feudalism of the Students. > > One could give other examples, but what is common to any such Feudalism and > Fiefdomism is the abuse of Rights, Authority and Power in the safe > assumption that India seriously lacks in Accountability and Environment for > Justice and Delivery of Justice. (Will not expand on that. I am sure it is > not needed) > > Senior students in an educational institution or the teaching faculty are a > part of similar feudal structures in their areas of operation and influence. > They find themselves because of their position, as being formally or > informally vested with, not only Rights but also Power and Authority which > they find easy to abuse in the absence of Accountability. > > My simplistic take. > > Kshmendra > > > > > --- On Sat, 4/18/09, Shuddhabrata Sengupta wrote: > > From: Shuddhabrata Sengupta > Subject: [Reader-list] Why do Schools and Colleges in India Kill? > To: "sarai list" > Date: Saturday, April 18, 2009, 12:39 AM > > Dear All, > > I find the incidence of deaths due to 'ragging' in educational > institutions in india and the recent death of a young girl, a student > of Class three, Shanno Khan, in a municipal school in Delhi caused by > the corporal punishment meted out to her by her teacher because she > could not tell the meaning of a word in English, totally shocking. > > Why is this murderous authoritarianism so prevalent in places of > education in India. Why do students and teachers behave like > executioners and impose so much violence on those weaker or smaller > or younger than them? > > What is it about the nature of education and pedagogy in our society > that makes it so conducive to producing little fascists and martinets? > > I hope this list can take some time to reflect on this. > > best > > Shuddha > > > > Shuddhabrata Sengupta > The Sarai Programme at CSDS > Raqs Media Collective > shuddha at sarai.net > www.sarai.net > www.raqsmediacollective.net > > > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > subscribe in > the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: > > > > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > subscribe in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: _________________________________________ reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. Critiques & Collaborations To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with subscribe in the subject header. To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> From kmvenuannur at gmail.com Wed Apr 22 15:36:42 2009 From: kmvenuannur at gmail.com (Venugopalan K M) Date: Wed, 22 Apr 2009 15:36:42 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Brahminical dominence ? In-Reply-To: <61164a90904220237y256dae16saa0ad6e6b5f31314@mail.gmail.com> References: <61164a90904210401k462156f8u40f90cea6a76c155@mail.gmail.com> <1f9180970904210520i7b46f3der639cf53ef5821d0@mail.gmail.com> <61164a90904212310x745fa773k4094027432b2420c@mail.gmail.com> <1f9180970904220157m18b3e581q41c51526fa881c0c@mail.gmail.com> <61164a90904220237y256dae16saa0ad6e6b5f31314@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <1f9180970904220306l72e0fc41m47877a0ca36dc4d4@mail.gmail.com> I have no difficulty to accept your take here, as a wishful thinking; Nevertheless, I was concerned with the way in which you presented the epic instance of ousting of Sita by Ram as a model of how the rulers respond to public opinion in 'positive' ways. In my reading it is far from the ideal way; further , I would say that Ram was terribly inhuman in having disguised his aspersions about Sita's chastity into a matter of 'public concern'! But, Brahmanism had always this kind of duping methods.This terrifying instance of putting Sita to a test by fire and finally banishing her to the forests, lives through the memories of generations of Hindus. The arguments justifying this on the ground of public opinion will only satisfy unquestioning devotees and not others; even many of his pious devotees had accepted this story only with a pinch of salt and thus we have different versions in Uthara Ramayanam (the story of Lav - Kush,etc) .Whatever is this, patriarchy is still reigning and Sree Ram Senes are at large though not without opposition from ever larger sections of people challenging them. Thanks, Venu. On Wed, Apr 22, 2009 at 3:07 PM, Rajen Uppinangadi wrote: > Hi, > >  Venu, > >     it is hilarious when you say that I support Ramarajya, because it is > fallacious to say the least, in democracy that kings and kingdoms exist in > free India. To that matter when Vijayaraje scindhiya crowned herself with > titles of shriman and also her sister, she got ousted along with her > sycophants.Ms. Vijayaraje was only chief minister, and she wasted the public > money in aircrafts and palace offices and public opinion went against her, > that is the power of public opinion in democracy. > >   Public opinion is when something not acceptable to all public happens it > is protested in most peaceful of the means, like the elections after > emergency of Indira Priyadarshini. It has reflected in west Bengal in gram > panchayath elections in the two disturbed districts when CPM went out of the > way with bullets and rape to oblige the salim group and the Tatas with > industries, what can be done by system of governance in peaceful, ways was > tried to be done with force of committed goon cadres, thus another goon > brigade  of Mamatha had the chance to flex muscles again proving that > violence begets more of it.? > >    In democratic life, as citizen all that I expect is good governance > without discrimination based on caste, faith or regio or religion, and > gender.All citizens must get the benefit of good governance and thus > opportunities to educate, jobs and life skills to better life, that is good > governance. As to NDA rule and India shining, it was indeed India shining in > parts because of the good highways, but all inclusive growth was not > achieved and the contraxt was stark. But UPA, the governance was of > kickbacks, as prices rise because of this, economy was totally dismissive of > the poor citizens and the result will show the position of Congress, the > lead player in UPA, that dishonesty does not pay as dishonest methods were > used to be in power. > >    One thing is certain, with divided polity with caste parties and regional > satraps controlling vote banks trained by Congress, the shisyas have become > experts giving lessons to national parties in corruption and bad > governance.?Glue that held the coalition was to save the corrupt from > prosecution, thus with fractured mandate, again the corrupt will be in > bargaining positions to stay in power unless the public opinion is strong to > keep out the criminals in Parliament.When honest prime minister used > dishonest means to be honest, he has abetted the crime as well. > > Regards, > > Rajen. > > On Wed, Apr 22, 2009 at 2:27 PM, Venugopalan K M > wrote: >> >>  >"..."As to Rama Rajya, let it be remembered that Rama was kshatriya >> king who administered his subjects wth care and concern for public >> opinion. A doubt about his own wife as expressed by a subject made him >> take the harsh step to send his wife to the forests when she was >> pregnent, to the Ashram. Todays leaders do not care for the public >> opinion as much as they did , but generate public opinion thru media >> and other means for their agendas, is my perception".." >> >> But that is excatly what I would rather take objection to not just >> your concept of 'Rajya' but also its iconic hero, Ram. >> Please excuse me when I say that this vulgar expression  of >> "prajahitham"(public opinion) against a poor woman  is nothing >> different from its newer versions of  "hithams" of Sri Ram Senes! >> >>  While it is repugnant to humanity, seen even  by the standards of >> ancient monarchy  it is much more unacceptable to the standards of >> human rights  of our age. It would be a grave instance of atrocity >> perpetrated against women with impunity by the kings in the name of >> 'public opinion'. What sort of king was he to grow suspicious of the >> chastity of his queen lived in forced exile , and yet to take recourse >> to 'public opinion' (most probably manufactured) to justify throwing >> her to fire? What bloody business this poor dhobi family had to >> suspect Sita as a bad woman? In my understanding, this is nothing but >> projection of source of one's own ill feeling to  someone else, >> skulking away from taking up the  moral  responsibility. The kind of >> relationship the king had with the queen, perhaps might have gone to >> deep trouble even otherwise. >> >> Well, this tendency to dupe people by spreading cock and bull stories >> about dharma in an effort to justify the most grotesque violence >> against women and the lower caste people might be part of the essence >> of Ramarajya of the past as well as the present, and this is what many >> people call Brahmanism.  Whatever you call this, you are supporting >> this and suggesting that 'Rama Rajya ' would help us cure of our ills. >> The headache is yours and not of others who don't want to believe >> these parables over laden with instruments of moral policing. >> Regards, >> Venu >> . >> >> >> >> 22, 2009 at 11:40 AM, Rajen Uppinangadi >> wrote: >> > Hi, >> > >> >     Venu; >> > >> >   Such general sweeping comments do not hold water in pluralistic >> > society >> > like this free India. To condemn the "brahminical" thinking itself is >> > absurd, as brahminical way of thinking is for "sarve jana sukhino >> > bhavanthu, >> > in Vasudaiva kutumbakam. >> > >> >   While it is true that in every faith, the women are subjugated, denied >> > education and are less privileged with rights and the accent is more on >> > their duties, it is absurd to say that hindu way of life encourages such >> > in >> > equality, for if it was so, gargi and maithreyi would not have had the >> > place >> > in the arguments for the society.The marad killings would not have >> > happened >> > when children and women were massacred in your backyard of Kerala. Shah >> > Bano >> > case would not have been the instance to talk about where livelihood was >> > denied for a woman.Compared to other faiths, hindu way of life has >> > exceptional place for women in modern living, unlike taliban which >> > shoots >> > down the couple if found walking together, the mullas would not proclaim >> > fathwas for the saving of a father for raping his own daughter. With >> > changing times, it is reforms that have taken place in hindu way of life >> > from within religion rather than outside, thanks to persons like Raja >> > Rammohan Roy, Jyothi Phule , and many other reformists, in modern times >> > even >> > Ambedkar has contributed his might to reforms in the way society treats >> > the >> > oppressed. But the political will to reforms in society has to come from >> > within the society as no amounts of laws can change as seen in Dowry >> > act, >> > and the dowry menace is flourishing in all faiths.In fact, the roman >> > catholic weddings in Kerala are notorious for the wedding and lavish >> > dory >> > angle to them, as clergy would bless the couple who part with >> > substantially >> > dirty, obscene amounts for such blessing of an arch bishop, as was told >> > to >> > me by a bishop friend. >> > >> > So, to generalise the menace of oppression only to one way of life, >> > hindu is >> > not only reflects the general trend of condemning whatever is hindu, as >> > brahminical. As to Rama Rajya, let it be remembered that Rama was >> > kshatriya >> > king who administered his subjects wth care and concern for public >> > opinion. >> > A doubt about his own wife as expressed by a subject made him take the >> > harsh >> > step to send his wife to the forests when she was pregnent, to the >> > Ashram. >> > Todays leaders do not care for the public opinion as much as they did , >> > but >> > generate public opinion thru media and other means for their agendas, is >> > my >> > perception. >> > >> > Regards, >> > >> > Rajen. >> > >> > On Tue, Apr 21, 2009 at 5:50 PM, Venugopalan K M >> > wrote: >> >> >> >> Dear Rajen, >> >> >> >> By adopting such a position on Brahmanical and Brahmanism, one will >> >> stand >> >> to lose the very usefulness of this important concept. As you were >> >> stating >> >> it has less to do with propagating hate than understanding the >> >> exceptionally >> >> institutionalized and ritualized  hate in the social and cultural life >> >> of >> >> India. >> >> This is sure to  raise lot of other questions: Why, for example  after >> >> the >> >> happening of the Khairlanji in September 2006 {almost the entire people >> >> of a >> >> village participate in the act of parading naked,raping,(women),killing >> >> and >> >> mutilating the bodies of the 4 victims who were members of a dalit >> >> family >> >> (converted to Budhism) }, the entire media kept silence for about one >> >> month? >> >> So , an understanding of  Brahmanism together with  Brahmanical ways of >> >> thinking,  not only does not talk of  Brahmans as persons but more as a >> >> collective and  typically  negative attitude. It is characterized by >> >> defending privileges with respect to the ascending order of caste and >> >> denying equality; significantly women of all castes are automatically >> >> considered inferior to their male counterparts(this is also seen in >> >> every >> >> other religion; but practices of cruelty to widows ,women not giving >> >> birth >> >> to to male offsprings, not able to consummate marriage etc,etc are >> >> viewed >> >> with special contempt in the brahmanical Hinduism).The extremely >> >> negative >> >> attitude to change or reform is a direct result of a desire to protect >> >> the >> >> system of privileges to the exclusion of others. These are generally >> >> what >> >> are considered as traits associated with Brahmanism.Unfortunately, >> >> majority >> >> of victims of this system of heirarchy are ideologically co-opted to >> >> it; >> >> they are not expected to doubt the system which is has been taught to >> >> them >> >> as divinely ordained.They are expected to just obey  without grumbles >> >> and >> >> get better off in the future birth.(Chathrvarnam maya srushtam guna >> >> karma >> >> vibhagasa- The system has been created by me according to your past >> >> karma >> >> and your qualities and just do your caste-ordained duties-this is the >> >> message of Bhagvan in Gita (Ch IX verse 32 ?..I don't remember it >> >> correctly) >> >> I'm not suggesting that every person believing in the Hindu scriptures >> >> and >> >> the Gita would support mass murders and ritualistic killings of dalits >> >> as >> >> happened in khairlanji..not that the media always will attempt to cover >> >> up >> >> such incidents.To be certain, in the media controlled by the upper >> >> caste >> >> Hindus,there is always a tendency to underplay the unpleasant factors >> >> related with caste. Gandhi was a great admirer and interpretor of Gita >> >> and >> >> yet he was assassinated by Godse, who was a fanatic adherent of >> >> Brahmanism.But even Gandhi believed in a Ramarajya of his own >> >> notion..so are >> >> the less enlightened 'Hindu' masses  to a greater or lesser degree in >> >> denying equality to women and lower castes, the very victims of >> >> discriminations included.Then, not to speak of the tendency to resist >> >> reservations and to monopolize knowledge and power by a minority. >> >> Certainly, >> >> the print media dominated by the upper caste plays a significant role >> >> in >> >> perpetuating the bias against the under privileged.The internet and the >> >> electronic media at a more globalized level, are able to challenge this >> >> privilege of the upper caste elites in  significant ways. >> >> Regards, >> >> Venu. >> >> >> >> Regards, >> >> Venu. >> >> >> >> >> >> On Tue, Apr 21, 2009 at 4:31 PM, Rajen Uppinangadi >> >> wrote: >> >>> >> >>> Hi, >> >>> >> >>>     Venu, >> >>> >> >>>     List is at times, makes up for the surprise packages for all with >> >>> undertones of "caste"  and is casted with caste as theme of hate, if >> >>> one >> >>> post talks of twice born as brahmins, another talks of brahminical >> >>> domination of media, which are again myths to say the least, if >> >>> otherwise it >> >>> is meant to be "learned" are brahmins, knowledgeable   "caste", then >> >>> may be >> >>> it is acceptable but still as we strive for togetherness above the >> >>> caste and >> >>> faith conundrums of hate, it is really ammusing that of all you start >> >>> with >> >>> this theme of hate on the basi of caste.? >> >>> >> >>>   To illustrate, Mr. Kancha Illayya, regular columnist, who takes up >> >>> issues of oppressed is a brahmin by his domination in media with the >> >>> issues, >> >>> just as sage Vishwamitra who gave the most potent manthra, Gayathri, >> >>> is >> >>> brahmin by his work, not by birth.? But contrary examples are also are >> >>> visible in society, where by birth some are brahmins, but behaviour is >> >>> that >> >>> of worse than  anyone, like the Dr. Murli manohar Joshi, in his acts >> >>> and >> >>> utterances.? Again, a journalist and lecturer in Physics., Dr. Joshi, >> >>> who >> >>> blindly follows the rituals without knowing the reasons behind such >> >>> rituals, >> >>> is again worse off even as brahmin born, as birth does not give the >> >>> right to >> >>> oppress others.? For example, the meaning of twice born is that once >> >>> the >> >>> child is born, at the tender age of around 12 years, he is vowed to go >> >>> for >> >>> higher studies to Benares, and the trip being in olden days, >> >>> hazardous, it >> >>> was presumed to be secong birth to undertake such a long journey for >> >>> education, times have changed with chools imparting education at hop, >> >>> skip >> >>> and jump distances from homes these days.? >> >>> >> >>>   As to media and media houses, most of them are run atleast in >> >>> Karnataka >> >>> by Idigas, or theeyas, or known in slang as toddy tappers, so the >> >>> education >> >>> has changed everything, let us come out of this caste fixation, judge >> >>> the >> >>> works rather than the caste.Visual media channels are again run by >> >>> individuals who know how to run the business with trps, news is not >> >>> what >> >>> viewers want, but what the channels dish out as views in news in this >> >>> age of >> >>> info-tainment. Otherwise how do you explain the anchors and their >> >>> behaviour >> >>> with type of presentation of "news" compared to western media, where >> >>> anchors >> >>> are better dressed with least exposure of made up face and bodies.? >> >>> >> >>> Regards, >> >>> >> >>> Rajen. >> >>> >> >>> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> -- >> >> http://venukm.blogspot.com/ >> > >> > >> >> >> >> -- >> http://venukm.blogspot.com/ > > -- http://venukm.blogspot.com/ From kshmendra2005 at yahoo.com Wed Apr 22 16:26:34 2009 From: kshmendra2005 at yahoo.com (Kshmendra Kaul) Date: Wed, 22 Apr 2009 03:56:34 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Reader-list] The 'upper caste dominated' Media In-Reply-To: <1f9180970904211226u17eb7922nb318aa841d9e4802@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <451176.38697.qm@web57202.mail.re3.yahoo.com> Dear Venugopalan   May I first of all express my admiration for the graciousness with which you introspect and then convey it.  I wish, one saw more of that on this List. I wish I had that quality.   What it was that you exactly meant, is quite clear now.   I wonder if there is some sort of a Media Watch organisation that totes up the airtime and printspace given to each political party, especially during elections. That would be interesting data quantitatively. But still it would not tell us much (qualitatively) about the biases.   I would still like to put on the plate a menu that suggests that the "Brahmanical and upper caste dominated" composition of the Indian Media (apart from your conviction that it has a bias favouring Hindutva) should also be seen as being partial to the 'Brahmanical and Upper Caste' in the Economic Segmentation of India. That automatically gets translated to a large extent into the socio-religious aspect.   Our Media is somewhat suspect about the extent of Advertorialising it indulges in. The making sure that there is no antagonising of "where the big bucks come from".    Thank you once again.   Kshmendra     --- On Wed, 4/22/09, Venugopalan K M wrote: From: Venugopalan K M Subject: Re: [Reader-list] The 'upper caste dominated' Media To: "sarai-list" Date: Wednesday, April 22, 2009, 12:56 AM Dear Kshmendra, I must now admit that I should not have linked  that aspect  of upper caste domination in media directly to the politics of Hindutva. These two happened to be mixed up in my earlier post as though they were same things. Nevertheless,the post-2004 elections scenario generally anticipated and propagated by a media dominated by the upper castes was one in which the NDA led by the BJP would come close to majority or at least the combine would emerge as the biggest single block."India Shining "and such hypes were indeed tried out by the media, apart from propagating opinion poles which conceded considerable prospects  to the NDA over others. In fact, they neither considered  the Left parties nor the BSP as anywhere in the fray.This continues even today as the accepted pattern of reporting of the so called National mediausual practice of the of these media. I have seen scores of blogs these days that dream the fantastic return of BJP; these blogs are apparently  creations of a section of the upper middle class largely emanating from the (privileged) upper castes who lament the overall deterioration of politics and at the same time vociferously argue for more and more draconian, anti people  measures  to maintain the status quo of system of privileges.Their single handed pursuits of combating terrorism often match well with the neo-liberal economic agenda characterized by militaristic solutions to political conflicts.Ever increasing spendings for defence ,nuclearization and escalation of conflicts with neighboring states and such things often obscure the  burning issues of farming crises, unemployment, price-rise , remarkable decline in the total outputs of wealth, increasing disparity in incomes, giving away of  the public assets to the corporates for a song, etc,etc. I hope that I have made my point clear; thank you. Regards, Venu. On Tue, Apr 21, 2009 at 4:03 PM, Kshmendra Kaul wrote: > > Dear Venugopalan >   > You made a statement, on which I requested clarifaction. Answering my question with a question hardly helps. I might or might not agree with your statement and I might or might not agree with it's converse. The explanation is yours to give if you choose to. >   > I appreciate your saying that "  my understanding in terms of exactly which castes are running the show is limited" >   > You have also clarified that "I said only that it is dominated by the upper caste hindus both in terms of ownership as well as control." >   > That is not what you said earlier. >   > What you had conveyed was that because of  "the support of the upper caste dominated media." in 2004 the 'band of nationalists' who subscribe to a 'form of cultural nationalism' which is 'rooted in the ideology of Brahmanical Hindutwa' seemed to be dangerously close to a second tenure in office. >   > Your statement was not about "ownership' or "control' but about "support". But, let that be. >   > Whatever the 'ownership' and whatever the 'control', are you saying the Indian Media judging by it's News Reporting and excercise of other Editorial/Ownership controls shows an "upper caste dominated" bias that translates into (or led in 2004 to) "support"  for """"" 'band of nationalists' who subscribe to a 'form of cultural nationalism' which is 'rooted in the ideology of Brahmanical Hindutwa' """"" ? >   > Kshmendra > > --- On Tue, 4/21/09, Venugopalan K M wrote: > > From: Venugopalan K M > Subject: Re: [Reader-list] The 'upper caste dominated' Media > To: "sarai-list" > Date: Tuesday, April 21, 2009, 2:46 PM > > Dear Kshamendra, > I would ask you to tell me which is not dominated by the upper caste ; > perhaps that would be much easier,though my understanding in terms of > exactly which castes are running the show is limited..I said only that it is > dominated by the upper caste hindus both in terms of ownership as well as > control.I am very open to be criticized and got corrected. > Thanks, > Venu > > On 4/21/09, Kshmendra Kaul wrote: > > > > Dear Venugopalan > > > > You have written that in 2004 the 'band of nationalists' who > subscribe to a > > 'form of cultural nationalism' which is 'rooted in the > ideology of > > Brahmanical Hindutwa' seemed to be dangerously close to a second > tenure in > > office thanks to (amongst others factors) "the support of the upper > caste > > dominated media." > > > > I would like to understand: > > > > - Which is this Media which is 'upper caste dominated' that > commands such > > an influence? > > > > - How does one reach the conclusion that it is 'upper caste > dominated'? > > > > Kshmendra > > > > > > > > --- On *Tue, 4/21/09, Venugopalan K M * > wrote: > > > > "In short, I would say that there indeed exists a concept of > 'Muslim > > voter' in India,  notwithstanding that individual voters might > > challenge this blanket concept in a particular context and would > > endorse the same in another context. In my view, there is nothing > > reprehensible in acting in this manner, when we take into > > considerations the imperatives of grave challenges to the very > > existence of divergent faiths in India which is actually rooted in the > > ideology of Brahmanical Hindutwa. This is the most deplorable form of > > cultural nationalism, which likes to ground the very idea of > > citizenship in it. Even the Indian constitution is anathema to this > > band of nationalists,who fortunately did not enjoy the mandate of more > > than a fifth of all Indian voters even in their best days! In the 2004 > > elections they seemed dangerously close to a second tenure of office > > thanks to the oprtunist realpolitiking by the regional parties and to > > the support of the upper caste dominated media." > > > > > > > > > -- > http://venukm.blogspot.com/ > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with subscribe in > the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> -- http://venukm.blogspot.com/ From kshmendra2005 at yahoo.com Wed Apr 22 17:22:56 2009 From: kshmendra2005 at yahoo.com (Kshmendra Kaul) Date: Wed, 22 Apr 2009 04:52:56 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Reader-list] "Buner falls into the hands of Swat Taliban" Message-ID: <106838.70902.qm@web57206.mail.re3.yahoo.com>   "Buner falls into the hands of Swat Taliban"   Wednesday, 22 Apr, 2009 | 03:42 AM PST   BUNER: Taliban militants from Swat took control of Buner on Tuesday and started patrolling bazaars, villages and towns in the district.   The militants, who had sneaked into Gokand valley of Buner on April 4, were reported to have been on a looting spree for the past five days.   They have robbed government and NGO offices of vehicles, computers, printers, generators, edible oil containers, and food and nutrition packets.   Sources said that leading political figures, businessmen, NGO officials and Khawaneen, who had played a role in setting up a Lashkar to stop the Taliban from entering Buner, had been forced to move to other areas.   The Taliban have extended their control to almost all tehsils of the district and law-enforcement personnel remained confined to police stations and camps.   The Taliban, equipped with advanced weapons, were reported to be advancing towards border areas of Swabi, Malakand and Mardan, the hometown of NWFP Chief Minister Amir Haider Khan Hoti.   According to reports reaching here, the militants have set up checkposts and camp bases in Kangar Gali village, along the Malakand border; Naway Dhand village, along the Mardan border; and Tootalai village, along the Swabi border.   The sources said officials of the FC camp in Jorh had asked people to vacate their homes in view of threats of an attack.   The militants have started digging trenches and setting up bunkers on heights in strategic towns of Gadezi, Salarzai, Osherai and other tehsils.   After occupying the Buner district and setting up their headquarters in the bungalow of businessman Syed Ahmed Khan (alias Fateh Khan) in Sultanwas, the militants started patrolling the streets and roads with no signs of law-enforcement personnel.   Led by Fateh Mohammad, the militants were asking local people, particularly youngsters, to join them in their campaign to enforce Sharia.   They have established checkposts on roads and are searching all passing vehicles. They have virtually established their writ in Buner region, once a stronghold of the Awami National Party.  A Taliban commander said they would set up strict Islamic sharia courts in Buner as they have already done in Swat, but would not interfere with police work. ‘The Taliban who have arrived from Swat have increased patrolling, banned music in public transport and rampaged (through the) offices of NGOs and taken their vehicles,’ local government official Rashid Khan said. ‘Taliban militants armed with rocket launchers were manning the checkpoints and operating from local mosques,’ he said, adding that a report had been filed at the local police station against ‘unknown militants.’ ‘We will soon establish our radio station. Our Qazis (Islamic judges) will also start holding courts in Buner soon,’ Taliban commander Mohammad Khalil told AFP. ‘We will not interfere in the police work, they can continue their job,’ he said, adding their purpose was to end a ‘sense of deprivation’ and to provide speedy justice. ‘People in their dozens have come to invite us’ to extend sharia. Muslim Khan, a Taliban spokesman, told AFP from Swat that ‘the government writ is not being challenged in Buner and Taliban are not creating any hurdle in the administration's work.’ ‘The Taliban will leave Buner after enforcement of Islamic justice system,’ he said. However, several residents said they felt ‘scared’ and planned to leave the Buner area, fearing similar violence to that in Swat.   On Tuesday, armed groups entered the Rural Health Centre at Jure in Salarzai area and took away a Land-Cruiser being used by the Expanded Programme of Immunisation (EPI), Buner.   On April 17, they raided a basic health unit in tehsil Chamla and looted 480 cans of edible oil. They took away from the house of a lady health visitor a large number of food and nutrition packets supplied by USAID and sewing machines from an Action Aid-sponsored vocational centre in the Korea village of tehsil Chamla.   On April 18, they looted a huge quantity of medicine from a health facility at the Afghan refugee camp in Koga in the same tehsil and 640 cans of edible oil from a godown of the World Food Programme in Nawagai.   On April 19, armed men took away a Suzuki Potohar Jeep from a rural health centre in Nagrai. A group of 20 militants took away a Suzuki Ravi car and 400 cans of edible oil from a basic health unit in Garga.   Another armed group snatched an ambulance, a pick-up provided by Gavi for EPI cell, a Suzuki Ravi from a health centre in Swari.   They also broke into the offices of Paiman (Save the Children) EPI, Jica offices and took away several computers, printers, two generators, fax machines, UPS and other appliances.   The armed men stopped near Ambela a double-cabin vehicle of Paiman going to Buner from Peshawar and took it along with the driver to a nearby camp. Later, they released the driver and escaped with the vehicle.   They have also occupied the main office of Rahbar in Swari.   http://www.dawn.com/wps/wcm/connect/dawn-content-library/dawn/news/pakistan/nwfp/buner-falls-to-swat-taliban--bi   From kmvenuannur at gmail.com Wed Apr 22 18:25:53 2009 From: kmvenuannur at gmail.com (Venugopalan K M) Date: Wed, 22 Apr 2009 18:25:53 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Fwd: My Brief Review of Women and Islam on the Shelfari Page In-Reply-To: <1f9180970904220553v153c17e5n7dce12195f1d3324@mail.gmail.com> References: <1f9180970904220421p1f351847q7784f1b60d15f21@mail.gmail.com> <1f9180970904220520l46d6abcm837dde6aaf1f79b4@mail.gmail.com> <1f9180970904220553v153c17e5n7dce12195f1d3324@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <1f9180970904220555u4bf082f7s69b985951c91c56c@mail.gmail.com> ---------- Forwarded message ---------- From: Venugopalan K M Date: Wed, Apr 22, 2009 at 6:23 PM Subject: Fwd: My Brief Review of Women and Islam on the Shelfari Page To: Respected friends, Kindly send in your comments; I expect to be benefited by them as I shortly intend to publish a translation of the work in Malayalam, which is my mother tongue. Warmly, Venu. Close * My Status * My Opinion * My Edition * My Tags * More to Do Shelfari: The Site for Books & ReadersShelfari Logo signed in as kmvenuannur| account settings| help| sign out * More Home o Public Profile o My Shelf o Friends o Groups o Find your friends o Invite a friend * More Explore o Books + Most Popular + Subjects + Tags + Authors o Members + Most Active + Most Like You o Groups + Most Active + Categories o Shelfari Blog Search advanced search Search Books Search: * Books/Authors * Members * Groups * Discussions * Should I Read This? * Recommend this Book * Buy from Amazon * Add to My Group * Modify Title/Author Women and Islam: An Historical and Theological EnquiryWomen and Islam: An Historical and Theological EnquiryFatima Mernissi Add/EditQuick Add * plan to read * reading now * I’ve read it * favorite * want to own * own it * remove book * Rated 0 stars * Rate 1 star * Rate 2 stars * Rate 3 stars * Rate 4 stars * Rate 5 stars * clear rating Women and Islam: An Historical and Theological Enquiry by Fatima Mernissi In this book the author, who is both a feminist and a Muslim, aims to shed light on the status of women in Islam by examining and reassessing the literary sources as far back as 7th century Islam. She portrays how, far from being the oppressor of women that his detractors have claimed, the Prophet upheld the equality of all true believers. Here is a bold reconciliation of feminism with the... (more) Top tags: slm (all tags) | (edit my tags) * Overview * Reviews (2) * Discussions (0) * My Copy * Editions (5) Member Reviews * kmvenuannur Looking for your review? Use the “My Copy” tab to access your rating, review and more. (edit review) * kmvenuannur o Rated 0 stars “ Fatima Mernissi has done an epoch making and scholarly exploration of the Suras (original Quranic verses) and the Hadits (accounts by the Companions of the Prophet about how the Messenger of God responded to challenging moments in the lives of first generation of believers,methodically cross checked and compiled by religious scholars who lived in the first two centuries of Islam) along with the interpretations since then. The major findings of the author are the following: 1. The Prophet undoubtedly wanted no separation between the public and private realms of life. 2. His vision of a monotheistic universal faith is absolutely egalitarian and that is a world in which women could shoulder equal roles with that of men in political, social and economic realms with a view to creating a new world that would assure peace and happiness to all humans. 3. While Islam would not sanction the practice of slavery among the believers, continuation of that institution for several centuries was possible in the actual islamic regimes thanks to the denial of option (to the new religion )to the prisoners of wars, who were mostly women from the pre Islamic kingdoms. However,their chidren were considered free persons. These women were treated as slaves and they were traded off or exchanged as booty. 4.The descend of Hijab,the physical as well as the symbolicl separation of private and public spaces happened as a response to the grave crisis in the Medina priod,which corresponded to the later phase in the life of the Prophet. Years between Hejra 3-8 (AD 625- 628) were crtical periods of crisis characterized by severe losses and uncertainity both on the side of military expetitions and on the socio-economic life of people. 5. Evenwhile the Prophet together with his wives and many of the articulate women in the Medinese city continued adherence to the principle of equality( between men and women) , they encountered lot of social abuses on account of this. 6. The prominent of the male Companions led by his son in law Umer continuously pressed on the Prophet to impose restrictions for women. They persisted on the view that solution to the above crisis of credibility and above all the insecurity, was in the separation of the Muslim space into two- public space was to be preserved as exclusive domain of men, and the private space as the secluded space for women- both these spaces to be separated by a Hijab- 7. The Hijab ultimately descended from the Heaven as revealed to the Prophet during the night of a wedding dinner in connection with his first night with Zainab in the year Hejra 5 (AD 627). The immediate provocation of the incident, according to a Hadith, was boorish behaviour of three men who continued to linger there chatting, sitting in the room without leaving the place even after the dinner; Prophet was eagerly waiting to be left alone in the company of Zainab,his new bride sitting in the same room. ” kmvenuannur wrote this review 1 minute ago. ( reply | edit |permalink ) * Press | * About Us | * Our Blog | * Jobs | * Questions and Help © 2009 Shelfari, Inc. | Portions of Shelfari.com are Copyright © 1996-2009 Amazon.com, Inc. or its affiliates. Terms & Conditions | Privacy Policy | Copyright Policy -- http://venukm.blogspot.com/ -- http://venukm.blogspot.com/ -- http://venukm.blogspot.com/ -- http://venukm.blogspot.com/ From rahul_capri at yahoo.com Wed Apr 22 19:00:14 2009 From: rahul_capri at yahoo.com (Rahul Asthana) Date: Wed, 22 Apr 2009 06:30:14 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Reader-list] Left in dark times - Bernard Henri Levy Message-ID: <783075.26656.qm@web53607.mail.re2.yahoo.com> Dear all, "Left in dark times" is the recent book by Bernard Henri Levy in which he makes a passionate criticism of the Left.Here is an interview where he talks about the book. http://www.guernicamag.com/interviews/800/an_interview_with_bernardhenri_1/ And this is the wiki entry about the book http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Left_in_Dark_Times:_A_Stand_Against_the_New_Barbarism Regards Rahul From kshmendra2005 at yahoo.com Wed Apr 22 19:43:16 2009 From: kshmendra2005 at yahoo.com (Kshmendra Kaul) Date: Wed, 22 Apr 2009 07:13:16 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Reader-list] Fwd: My Brief Review of Women and Islam on the Shelfari Page In-Reply-To: <1f9180970904220555u4bf082f7s69b985951c91c56c@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <776167.60166.qm@web57202.mail.re3.yahoo.com> Dear Venugopalan   Just a few comments on what you have written:   - Mohammed's son-in-law was Ali (not Umer)   - Slavery is institutionalised in Islam through the Quran. It comments on it and gives no injunction against it as being unacceptable   - There is no advisory favouring the HIJAB in the Quran other than ONLY for the wives of Mohammed (this is open to interpretations).   - Certain controversial advisories in the Quran and specifically the Law for Evidences, makes suspect a claim of 'equality between the sexes' as may be understood in secular terms   - You err in referring to the 'monotheistic universal faith is absolutely egalitarian' of Islam as being a VISION of Mohammed. It is the VISION of ALLAH and not Mohammed.   While on this subject; Most commentators on Islam including Muslims do wrong when they try to read the Quran in combination with the Hadith. The Hadith are sectarian and indeed political and may not always be in-line with the Quranic word, which makes some doubly suspect.    Even in the reading of the Quran (and this is solely my own understanding), it would help both Muslims and Non-Muslims to understand things better if they were to identify the following aspects:   - Self-declatory by Allah. A generalised commentary on  Creator and the Creations and expectations of Creator from Creations   - Advisories for Mohammed alone    - Advisories for everyone   - Advisories for specific times   - Advisories valid in perpetuity for ever after   - Commentaries of the times before Mohammed that may or may not be advisories  in perpetutity for ever after    Kshmendra      --- On Wed, 4/22/09, Venugopalan K M wrote: From: Venugopalan K M Subject: Fwd: My Brief Review of Women and Islam on the Shelfari Page To: "sarai-list" Date: Wednesday, April 22, 2009, 6:25 PM ---------- Forwarded message ---------- From: Venugopalan K M Date: Wed, Apr 22, 2009 at 6:23 PM Subject: Fwd: My Brief Review of Women and Islam on the Shelfari Page To: Respected friends, Kindly send in your comments; I expect to be benefited by them as I shortly intend to publish a translation of the work  in Malayalam, which is my mother tongue. Warmly, Venu. Women and Islam: An Historical and Theological Enquiry by Fatima Mernissi In this book the author, who is both a feminist and a Muslim, aims to shed light on the status of women in Islam by examining and reassessing the literary sources as far back as 7th century Islam. She portrays how, far from being the oppressor of women that his detractors have claimed, the Prophet upheld the equality of all true believers. Here is a bold reconciliation of feminism with the... (more)      kmvenuannur          o Rated 0 stars      “ Fatima Mernissi has done an epoch making and scholarly exploration of the Suras (original Quranic verses) and the Hadits (accounts by the Companions of the Prophet about how the Messenger of God responded to challenging moments in the lives of first generation of believers,methodically cross checked and compiled by religious scholars who lived in the first two centuries of Islam) along with the interpretations since then. The major findings of the author are the following:      1. The Prophet undoubtedly wanted no separation between the public and private realms of life.      2. His vision of a monotheistic universal faith is absolutely egalitarian and that is a world in which women could shoulder equal roles with that of men in political, social and economic realms with a view to creating a new world that would assure peace and happiness to all humans.      3. While Islam would not sanction the practice of slavery among the believers, continuation of that institution for several centuries was possible in the actual islamic regimes thanks to the denial of option (to the new religion )to the prisoners of wars, who were mostly women from the pre Islamic kingdoms. However,their chidren were considered free persons. These women were treated as slaves and they were traded off or exchanged as booty.      4.The descend of Hijab,the physical as well as the symbolicl separation of private and public spaces happened as a response to the grave crisis in the Medina priod,which corresponded to the later phase in the life of the Prophet. Years between Hejra 3-8 (AD 625- 628) were crtical periods of crisis characterized by severe losses and uncertainity both on the side of military expetitions and on the socio-economic life of people.      5. Evenwhile the Prophet together with his wives and many of the articulate women in the Medinese city continued adherence to the principle of equality( between men and women) , they encountered lot of social abuses on account of this.      6. The prominent of the male Companions led by his son in law Umer continuously pressed on the Prophet to impose restrictions for women. They persisted on the view that solution to the above crisis of credibility and above all the insecurity, was in the separation of the Muslim space into two- public space was to be preserved as exclusive domain of men, and the private space as the secluded space for women- both these spaces to be separated by a Hijab-      7. The Hijab ultimately descended from the Heaven as revealed to the Prophet during the night of a wedding dinner in connection with his first night with Zainab in the year Hejra 5 (AD 627). The immediate provocation of the incident, according to a Hadith, was boorish behaviour of three men who continued to linger there chatting, sitting in the room without leaving the place even after the dinner; Prophet was eagerly waiting to be left alone in the company of Zainab,his new bride sitting in the same room. ”      kmvenuannur wrote this review 1 minute ago. ( reply | edit |permalink )    From kmvenuannur at gmail.com Wed Apr 22 20:37:30 2009 From: kmvenuannur at gmail.com (Venugopalan K M) Date: Wed, 22 Apr 2009 20:37:30 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Fwd: My Brief Review of Women and Islam on the Shelfari Page In-Reply-To: <776167.60166.qm@web57202.mail.re3.yahoo.com> References: <1f9180970904220555u4bf082f7s69b985951c91c56c@mail.gmail.com> <776167.60166.qm@web57202.mail.re3.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <1f9180970904220807hb7b508bgbe992b58dac97115@mail.gmail.com> Dear Kshmendra, I'm highly obliged to your comments; particularly for the correction regarding Umer. It was a big mistake on my part, to have mentioned Umer as Mohamed's son in law; actually Umer was his father in law .(I must rush to correct it there) While I particularly thank you for pointing out the above factual error in my post, I the rest of your contentions are quite debatable , though I feel restrained by a host of things to elaborate my points of view. I had just tried to outline the most impressive arguments I found in this work. Regards, Venu. On Wed, Apr 22, 2009 at 7:43 PM, Kshmendra Kaul wrote: > Dear Venugopalan > > Just a few comments on what you have written: > > - Mohammed's son-in-law was Ali (not Umer) > > - Slavery is institutionalised in Islam through the Quran. It comments on > it and gives no injunction against it as being unacceptable > > - There is no advisory favouring the HIJAB in the Quran other than ONLY for > the wives of Mohammed (this is open to interpretations). > > - Certain controversial advisories in the Quran and specifically the Law > for Evidences, makes suspect a claim of 'equality between the sexes' as may > be understood in secular terms > > - You err in referring to the 'monotheistic universal faith is absolutely > egalitarian' of Islam as being a VISION of Mohammed. It is the VISION of > ALLAH and not Mohammed. > > While on this subject; Most commentators on Islam including Muslims do > wrong when they try to read the Quran in combination with the Hadith. The > Hadith are sectarian and indeed political and may not always be in-line with > the Quranic word, which makes some doubly suspect. > > Even in the reading of the Quran (and this is solely my own understanding), > it would help both Muslims and Non-Muslims to understand things better if > they were to identify the following aspects: > > - Self-declatory by Allah. A generalised commentary on Creator and the > Creations and expectations of Creator from Creations > > - Advisories for Mohammed alone > > - Advisories for everyone > > - Advisories for specific times > > - Advisories valid in perpetuity for ever after > > - Commentaries of the times before Mohammed that may or may not > be advisories in perpetutity for ever after > > Kshmendra > > > --- On *Wed, 4/22/09, Venugopalan K M * wrote: > > From: Venugopalan K M > Subject: Fwd: My Brief Review of Women and Islam on the Shelfari Page > To: "sarai-list" > Date: Wednesday, April 22, 2009, 6:25 PM > > > > ---------- Forwarded message ---------- > From: Venugopalan K M > Date: Wed, Apr 22, 2009 at 6:23 PM > Subject: Fwd: My Brief Review of Women and Islam on the Shelfari Page > To: > > > Respected friends, > Kindly send in your comments; I expect to be benefited by them as I shortly > intend to publish a translation of the work in Malayalam, which is my > mother tongue. > Warmly, > Venu. > > Women and Islam: An Historical and Theological Enquiry > by Fatima Mernissi > In this book the author, who is both a feminist and a Muslim, aims to shed > light on the status of women in Islam by examining and reassessing the > literary sources as far back as 7th century Islam. She portrays how, far > from being the oppressor of women that his detractors have claimed, the > Prophet upheld the equality of all true believers. Here is a bold > reconciliation of feminism with the... (more) > > kmvenuannur > o Rated 0 stars > > “ Fatima Mernissi has done an epoch making and scholarly exploration > of the Suras (original Quranic verses) and the Hadits (accounts by the > Companions of the Prophet about how the Messenger of God responded to > challenging moments in the lives of first generation of > believers,methodically cross checked and compiled by religious scholars who > lived in the first two centuries of Islam) along with the interpretations > since then. The major findings of the author are the following: > 1. The Prophet undoubtedly wanted no separation between the public and > private realms of life. > 2. His vision of a monotheistic universal faith is absolutely > egalitarian and that is a world in which women could shoulder equal roles > with that of men in political, social and economic realms with a view to > creating a new world that would assure peace and happiness to all humans. > 3. While Islam would not sanction the practice of slavery among the > believers, continuation of that institution for several centuries was > possible in the actual islamic regimes thanks to the denial of option (to > the new religion )to the prisoners of wars, who were mostly women from the > pre Islamic kingdoms. However,their chidren were considered free persons. > These women were treated as slaves and they were traded off or exchanged as > booty. > 4.The descend of Hijab,the physical as well as the symbolicl > separation of private and public spaces happened as a response to the grave > crisis in the Medina priod,which corresponded to the later phase in the life > of the Prophet. Years between Hejra 3-8 (AD 625- 628) were crtical periods > of crisis characterized by severe losses and uncertainity both on the side > of military expetitions and on the socio-economic life of people. > 5. Evenwhile the Prophet together with his wives and many of the > articulate women in the Medinese city continued adherence to the principle > of equality( between men and women) , they encountered lot of social abuses > on account of this. > 6. The prominent of the male Companions led by his son in law Umer > continuously pressed on the Prophet to impose restrictions for women. They > persisted on the view that solution to the above crisis of credibility and > above all the insecurity, was in the separation of the Muslim space into > two- public space was to be preserved as exclusive domain of men, and the > private space as the secluded space for women- both these spaces to be > separated by a Hijab- > 7. The Hijab ultimately descended from the Heaven as revealed to the > Prophet during the night of a wedding dinner in connection with his first > night with Zainab in the year Hejra 5 (AD 627). The immediate provocation of > the incident, according to a Hadith, was boorish behaviour of three men who > continued to linger there chatting, sitting in the room without leaving the > place even after the dinner; Prophet was eagerly waiting to be left alone in > the company of Zainab,his new bride sitting in the same room. ” > kmvenuannur wrote this review 1 minute ago. ( reply | edit |permalink > ) > > > > > -- http://venukm.blogspot.com/ From rakesh.rnbdj at gmail.com Wed Apr 22 20:46:52 2009 From: rakesh.rnbdj at gmail.com (Rakesh Iyer) Date: Wed, 22 Apr 2009 20:46:52 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Why do Schools and Colleges in India Kill? In-Reply-To: <687335.99800.qm@web57207.mail.re3.yahoo.com> References: <341380d00904210826g590b7b66q8d181306f874e649@mail.gmail.com> <687335.99800.qm@web57207.mail.re3.yahoo.com> Message-ID: Dear all What one has to look at ragging at is both from the point of view of the ragger and the ragged (If i were allowed to use those terms that is). So on that question, I feel the ragger does it for his enjoyment, while the ragged does it so that he can get in the good books of the ragger which can help him in future. And as I had said earlier, in hindsight it helps as our society is extremely insensitive to our plight, which is why this ensures the ragged in future, don't get affected too much emotionally in many cases. Regarding violence, there can't be one particular reason alone as to why this happens. May be the tendencies to enjoy at the cost of others is too much to resist. Probably feudalism and majoritarianism of senior-junior kind is also too much to resist. I don't know what to say about its causes. What however it does show is the way our society is constructed. We are a society where slowly even the sympathy for oneself is deteriorating. It could have been a big help if we could have changed the very fundamentals here of our society's base. And the way we are going, this would only lead to dooms' day. Regards Rakesh From shuddha at sarai.net Thu Apr 23 04:33:33 2009 From: shuddha at sarai.net (Shuddhabrata Sengupta) Date: Thu, 23 Apr 2009 04:33:33 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Brahminical dominence ? In-Reply-To: <1f9180970904220157m18b3e581q41c51526fa881c0c@mail.gmail.com> References: <61164a90904210401k462156f8u40f90cea6a76c155@mail.gmail.com> <1f9180970904210520i7b46f3der639cf53ef5821d0@mail.gmail.com> <61164a90904212310x745fa773k4094027432b2420c@mail.gmail.com> <1f9180970904220157m18b3e581q41c51526fa881c0c@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <71249196-528B-4F3B-8A84-5BD1FC55248B@sarai.net> Is this character called Ram or Rama not the same arrogant king who once killed a scholar called Shambuka because he was found studying the scriptures. The crime being that Shambuka was an untouchable and so could not touch the scriptures, even with his mind. Would I want to live in a society where kings slaughter scholars for the crime of their curiosity? No, I would not. I touch a lot of stuff with my impure mind, and I want to live safe from stupid kings who don't know better. I think we ought to be grateful that Ram Rajya is as yet a distant dream of a lunatic fringe. Lets hope it stays that way. best Shuddha On 22-Apr-09, at 2:27 PM, Venugopalan K M wrote: >> "..."As to Rama Rajya, let it be remembered that Rama was kshatriya > king who administered his subjects wth care and concern for public > opinion. A doubt about his own wife as expressed by a subject made him > take the harsh step to send his wife to the forests when she was > pregnent, to the Ashram. Todays leaders do not care for the public > opinion as much as they did , but generate public opinion thru media > and other means for their agendas, is my perception".." > > But that is excatly what I would rather take objection to not just > your concept of 'Rajya' but also its iconic hero, Ram. > Please excuse me when I say that this vulgar expression of > "prajahitham"(public opinion) against a poor woman is nothing > different from its newer versions of "hithams" of Sri Ram Senes! > > While it is repugnant to humanity, seen even by the standards of > ancient monarchy it is much more unacceptable to the standards of > human rights of our age. It would be a grave instance of atrocity > perpetrated against women with impunity by the kings in the name of > 'public opinion'. What sort of king was he to grow suspicious of the > chastity of his queen lived in forced exile , and yet to take recourse > to 'public opinion' (most probably manufactured) to justify throwing > her to fire? What bloody business this poor dhobi family had to > suspect Sita as a bad woman? In my understanding, this is nothing but > projection of source of one's own ill feeling to someone else, > skulking away from taking up the moral responsibility. The kind of > relationship the king had with the queen, perhaps might have gone to > deep trouble even otherwise. > > Well, this tendency to dupe people by spreading cock and bull stories > about dharma in an effort to justify the most grotesque violence > against women and the lower caste people might be part of the essence > of Ramarajya of the past as well as the present, and this is what many > people call Brahmanism. Whatever you call this, you are supporting > this and suggesting that 'Rama Rajya ' would help us cure of our ills. > The headache is yours and not of others who don't want to believe > these parables over laden with instruments of moral policing. > Regards, > Venu > . > > > > 22, 2009 at 11:40 AM, Rajen Uppinangadi > wrote: >> Hi, >> >> Venu; >> >> Such general sweeping comments do not hold water in pluralistic >> society >> like this free India. To condemn the "brahminical" thinking itself is >> absurd, as brahminical way of thinking is for "sarve jana sukhino >> bhavanthu, >> in Vasudaiva kutumbakam. >> >> While it is true that in every faith, the women are subjugated, >> denied >> education and are less privileged with rights and the accent is >> more on >> their duties, it is absurd to say that hindu way of life >> encourages such in >> equality, for if it was so, gargi and maithreyi would not have had >> the place >> in the arguments for the society.The marad killings would not have >> happened >> when children and women were massacred in your backyard of Kerala. >> Shah Bano >> case would not have been the instance to talk about where >> livelihood was >> denied for a woman.Compared to other faiths, hindu way of life has >> exceptional place for women in modern living, unlike taliban which >> shoots >> down the couple if found walking together, the mullas would not >> proclaim >> fathwas for the saving of a father for raping his own daughter. With >> changing times, it is reforms that have taken place in hindu way >> of life >> from within religion rather than outside, thanks to persons like Raja >> Rammohan Roy, Jyothi Phule , and many other reformists, in modern >> times even >> Ambedkar has contributed his might to reforms in the way society >> treats the >> oppressed. But the political will to reforms in society has to >> come from >> within the society as no amounts of laws can change as seen in >> Dowry act, >> and the dowry menace is flourishing in all faiths.In fact, the roman >> catholic weddings in Kerala are notorious for the wedding and >> lavish dory >> angle to them, as clergy would bless the couple who part with >> substantially >> dirty, obscene amounts for such blessing of an arch bishop, as was >> told to >> me by a bishop friend. >> >> So, to generalise the menace of oppression only to one way of >> life, hindu is >> not only reflects the general trend of condemning whatever is >> hindu, as >> brahminical. As to Rama Rajya, let it be remembered that Rama was >> kshatriya >> king who administered his subjects wth care and concern for public >> opinion. >> A doubt about his own wife as expressed by a subject made him take >> the harsh >> step to send his wife to the forests when she was pregnent, to the >> Ashram. >> Todays leaders do not care for the public opinion as much as they >> did , but >> generate public opinion thru media and other means for their >> agendas, is my >> perception. >> >> Regards, >> >> Rajen. >> >> On Tue, Apr 21, 2009 at 5:50 PM, Venugopalan K M >> >> wrote: >>> >>> Dear Rajen, >>> >>> By adopting such a position on Brahmanical and Brahmanism, one >>> will stand >>> to lose the very usefulness of this important concept. As you >>> were stating >>> it has less to do with propagating hate than understanding the >>> exceptionally >>> institutionalized and ritualized hate in the social and cultural >>> life of >>> India. >>> This is sure to raise lot of other questions: Why, for example >>> after the >>> happening of the Khairlanji in September 2006 {almost the entire >>> people of a >>> village participate in the act of parading naked,raping, >>> (women),killing and >>> mutilating the bodies of the 4 victims who were members of a >>> dalit family >>> (converted to Budhism) }, the entire media kept silence for about >>> one month? >>> So , an understanding of Brahmanism together with Brahmanical >>> ways of >>> thinking, not only does not talk of Brahmans as persons but >>> more as a >>> collective and typically negative attitude. It is characterized by >>> defending privileges with respect to the ascending order of caste >>> and >>> denying equality; significantly women of all castes are >>> automatically >>> considered inferior to their male counterparts(this is also seen >>> in every >>> other religion; but practices of cruelty to widows ,women not >>> giving birth >>> to to male offsprings, not able to consummate marriage etc,etc >>> are viewed >>> with special contempt in the brahmanical Hinduism).The extremely >>> negative >>> attitude to change or reform is a direct result of a desire to >>> protect the >>> system of privileges to the exclusion of others. These are >>> generally what >>> are considered as traits associated with >>> Brahmanism.Unfortunately, majority >>> of victims of this system of heirarchy are ideologically co-opted >>> to it; >>> they are not expected to doubt the system which is has been >>> taught to them >>> as divinely ordained.They are expected to just obey without >>> grumbles and >>> get better off in the future birth.(Chathrvarnam maya srushtam >>> guna karma >>> vibhagasa- The system has been created by me according to your >>> past karma >>> and your qualities and just do your caste-ordained duties-this is >>> the >>> message of Bhagvan in Gita (Ch IX verse 32 ?..I don't remember it >>> correctly) >>> I'm not suggesting that every person believing in the Hindu >>> scriptures and >>> the Gita would support mass murders and ritualistic killings of >>> dalits as >>> happened in khairlanji..not that the media always will attempt to >>> cover up >>> such incidents.To be certain, in the media controlled by the >>> upper caste >>> Hindus,there is always a tendency to underplay the unpleasant >>> factors >>> related with caste. Gandhi was a great admirer and interpretor of >>> Gita and >>> yet he was assassinated by Godse, who was a fanatic adherent of >>> Brahmanism.But even Gandhi believed in a Ramarajya of his own >>> notion..so are >>> the less enlightened 'Hindu' masses to a greater or lesser >>> degree in >>> denying equality to women and lower castes, the very victims of >>> discriminations included.Then, not to speak of the tendency to >>> resist >>> reservations and to monopolize knowledge and power by a minority. >>> Certainly, >>> the print media dominated by the upper caste plays a significant >>> role in >>> perpetuating the bias against the under privileged.The internet >>> and the >>> electronic media at a more globalized level, are able to >>> challenge this >>> privilege of the upper caste elites in significant ways. >>> Regards, >>> Venu. >>> >>> Regards, >>> Venu. >>> >>> >>> On Tue, Apr 21, 2009 at 4:31 PM, Rajen Uppinangadi >>> wrote: >>>> >>>> Hi, >>>> >>>> Venu, >>>> >>>> List is at times, makes up for the surprise packages for all >>>> with >>>> undertones of "caste" and is casted with caste as theme of >>>> hate, if one >>>> post talks of twice born as brahmins, another talks of brahminical >>>> domination of media, which are again myths to say the least, if >>>> otherwise it >>>> is meant to be "learned" are brahmins, knowledgeable "caste", >>>> then may be >>>> it is acceptable but still as we strive for togetherness above >>>> the caste and >>>> faith conundrums of hate, it is really ammusing that of all you >>>> start with >>>> this theme of hate on the basi of caste.? >>>> >>>> To illustrate, Mr. Kancha Illayya, regular columnist, who >>>> takes up >>>> issues of oppressed is a brahmin by his domination in media with >>>> the issues, >>>> just as sage Vishwamitra who gave the most potent manthra, >>>> Gayathri, is >>>> brahmin by his work, not by birth.? But contrary examples are >>>> also are >>>> visible in society, where by birth some are brahmins, but >>>> behaviour is that >>>> of worse than anyone, like the Dr. Murli manohar Joshi, in his >>>> acts and >>>> utterances.? Again, a journalist and lecturer in Physics., Dr. >>>> Joshi, who >>>> blindly follows the rituals without knowing the reasons behind >>>> such rituals, >>>> is again worse off even as brahmin born, as birth does not give >>>> the right to >>>> oppress others.? For example, the meaning of twice born is that >>>> once the >>>> child is born, at the tender age of around 12 years, he is vowed >>>> to go for >>>> higher studies to Benares, and the trip being in olden days, >>>> hazardous, it >>>> was presumed to be secong birth to undertake such a long journey >>>> for >>>> education, times have changed with chools imparting education at >>>> hop, skip >>>> and jump distances from homes these days.? >>>> >>>> As to media and media houses, most of them are run atleast in >>>> Karnataka >>>> by Idigas, or theeyas, or known in slang as toddy tappers, so >>>> the education >>>> has changed everything, let us come out of this caste fixation, >>>> judge the >>>> works rather than the caste.Visual media channels are again run by >>>> individuals who know how to run the business with trps, news is >>>> not what >>>> viewers want, but what the channels dish out as views in news in >>>> this age of >>>> info-tainment. Otherwise how do you explain the anchors and >>>> their behaviour >>>> with type of presentation of "news" compared to western media, >>>> where anchors >>>> are better dressed with least exposure of made up face and bodies.? >>>> >>>> Regards, >>>> >>>> Rajen. >>>> >>>> >>> >>> >>> >>> -- >>> http://venukm.blogspot.com/ >> >> > > > > -- > http://venukm.blogspot.com/ > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > subscribe in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> Shuddhabrata Sengupta The Sarai Programme at CSDS Raqs Media Collective shuddha at sarai.net www.sarai.net www.raqsmediacollective.net From jeebesh at sarai.net Thu Apr 23 11:43:18 2009 From: jeebesh at sarai.net (Jeebesh) Date: Thu, 23 Apr 2009 11:43:18 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Left in dark times - Bernard Henri Levy In-Reply-To: <783075.26656.qm@web53607.mail.re2.yahoo.com> References: <783075.26656.qm@web53607.mail.re2.yahoo.com> Message-ID: dear Rahul, Do you know about other works of Bernard Levi and his commentary on life in general?. Check his writing of the Suburban Paris unrest. You will get a sense of his thinking. It will help your analysis and his critiques better. warmly jeebesh On 22-Apr-09, at 7:00 PM, Rahul Asthana wrote: > > Dear all, > "Left in dark times" is the recent book by Bernard Henri Levy in > which he makes a passionate criticism of the Left.Here is an > interview where he talks about the book. > http://www.guernicamag.com/interviews/800/an_interview_with_bernardhenri_1/ > And this is the wiki entry about the book > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Left_in_Dark_Times:_A_Stand_Against_the_New_Barbarism > > Regards > Rahul > > > > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > subscribe in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> From phadkeshilpa at gmail.com Thu Apr 23 13:44:16 2009 From: phadkeshilpa at gmail.com (Shilpa Phadke) Date: Thu, 23 Apr 2009 13:44:16 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Fwd: Fw: Complaint against DNA's coverage of recent rape case in Mumbai In-Reply-To: References: <004a01c9c3e8$75771fe0$0501a8c0@bishakha6bbb1b> Message-ID: Please see Bishakha's email below and do write to DNA at the email address: inbox at dnaindia.net The more letters they get the more likely that they will actually pay attention! Shilpa ---------- Forwarded message ---------- From: Bishakha Datta Date: 2009/4/23 Subject: Fw: Complaint against DNA's coverage of recent rape case in Mumbai To: After seeing this on the DNA website, I have sent the letter below to DNA - got the correct address for letters from a reporter there. If you too would like to write to them, the address is: inbox at dnaindia.net. My letter below. Bishakha Is it right to blame rape victims for the attacks? Wednesday, April 22, 2009 21:46 IST The age-old debate has been sparked again by the alleged gang rape of a 23-year-old American woman studying at the Tata Institute of Social Sciences, Mumbai. You may also want to see *TISS gangrape case: Soni sent in police custody till May 3 *Why was she with six men that night? *TISS rape: Cops comb country for 6th suspect *Two more held in TISS gangrape case Some people have suggested that the woman invited the crime with her 'loose' behaviour (read: staying out late at night and drinking with a group of men who were supposedly friends of a friend). Questions have also been raised about why she did not lodge a complaint immediately on leaving the house where she claims the crime took place, and why she agreed to take an emergency contraceptive pill afterwards. Irrespective of the legal merits of the case, where do you stand in this debate? Do you think the victim also bears some responsibility for the crime? Is rape the price to be paid for trust or naivete, or plain stupidity? What about a woman's right to say no? ----- Original Message ----- *From:* Bishakha Datta *To:* inbox at dnaindia.net *Sent:* Thursday, April 23, 2009 1:17 PM *Subject:* Complaint against DNA's coverage of recent rape case in Mumbai Dear Sir, Is DNA trying to ensure that the American woman from TISS who was raped does NOT get justice? I want to draw your attention to two reports about the TISS case on www.dnaindia.com today: 1) Why was she with six men that night? Divyesh Singh & Menaka Rao dated Wed 21 April 2009 at http://www.dnaindia.com/report.asp?newsid=1249292 2) ‘Is it right to blame rape victims for the attacks?’ as a topic of ‘debate’ for the ‘Speak Up’ column at http://www.dnaindia.com/report.asp?newsid=1249873 *No 1) Why was she with sex men that night?* is a clear case of biased one-sided reporting. It is based solely on the statements and anticipatory bail application of Vinamra Soni and on an interview with his lawyer. The main aim of all these comments is to cast doubt and aspersions on the woman’s testimony and secure bail for Soni. Why is DNA playing into or taking sides on this? This is not fair, balanced or ethical reporting. *No 2)** **‘Is it right to blame rape victims for the attacks?’* is not an appropriate debate topic. Rape is coerced sex; a crime. Only perpetrators can be held responsible for the crimes they commit - not victims. How is it that victims of any other crime are never blamed, but that rape victims are always suspected of triggering rape? People who are robbed murdered or otherwise assaulted are never held responsible - nor is robbery murder or assault considered 'the price to be paid for trust or naivete or plain stupidity.' One can debate opinion; one cannot debate fact. Rape is, in fact, a crime. Period. There are no two opinions around this. Debate topics like this – combined with coverage titled ‘Why was she with six men that night?’ bias public and judicial opinion. They are speculative, sensational and biased. Coverage like this will make it impossible for the American student from TISS to fight for justice on a level playing field. Please withdraw this as a ‘Speak Up’ topic of debate with immediate effect – and ensure that future coverage of such cases is balanced and ethical. Bishakha Datta Executive Director Point of View www.pointofview.org From kshmendra2005 at yahoo.com Thu Apr 23 13:57:14 2009 From: kshmendra2005 at yahoo.com (Kshmendra Kaul) Date: Thu, 23 Apr 2009 01:27:14 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Reader-list] Fwd: My Brief Review of Women and Islam on the Shelfari Page In-Reply-To: <1f9180970904220807hb7b508bgbe992b58dac97115@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <575803.68436.qm@web57206.mail.re3.yahoo.com> Dear Venugopalan   Yes Umer (Omar) Al Khattab was father of Hafsa, one of Mohammed's wives. He became the second Khalifa after Mohammed's death.   I have not read the book you have reviewed so cannot comment on it's contents. I was only looking at what you written.   You are most welcome to give your points of view whenever it is convienient for you.     Kshmendra   --- On Wed, 4/22/09, Venugopalan K M wrote: From: Venugopalan K M Subject: Re: [Reader-list] Fwd: My Brief Review of Women and Islam on the Shelfari Page To: "sarai-list" Date: Wednesday, April 22, 2009, 8:37 PM Dear Kshmendra, I'm highly obliged to your comments; particularly for the correction regarding Umer. It was a big mistake on my part, to have mentioned Umer as Mohamed's son in law; actually Umer was his father in law .(I must rush to correct it there) While I particularly thank you for pointing out the above factual error in my post, I the rest of your contentions are quite debatable , though I feel restrained by a host of things to elaborate my points of view. I had just tried to outline the most impressive arguments I found in this work. Regards, Venu. On Wed, Apr 22, 2009 at 7:43 PM, Kshmendra Kaul wrote: > Dear Venugopalan > > Just a few comments on what you have written: > > - Mohammed's son-in-law was Ali (not Umer) > > - Slavery is institutionalised in Islam through the Quran. It comments on > it and gives no injunction against it as being unacceptable > > - There is no advisory favouring the HIJAB in the Quran other than ONLY for > the wives of Mohammed (this is open to interpretations). > > - Certain controversial advisories in the Quran and specifically the Law > for Evidences, makes suspect a claim of 'equality between the sexes' as may > be understood in secular terms > > - You err in referring to the 'monotheistic universal faith is absolutely > egalitarian' of Islam as being a VISION of Mohammed. It is the VISION of > ALLAH and not Mohammed. > > While on this subject; Most commentators on Islam including Muslims do > wrong when they try to read the Quran in combination with the Hadith. The > Hadith are sectarian and indeed political and may not always be in-line with > the Quranic word, which makes some doubly suspect. > > Even in the reading of the Quran (and this is solely my own understanding), > it would help both Muslims and Non-Muslims to understand things better if > they were to identify the following aspects: > > - Self-declatory by Allah. A generalised commentary on Creator and the > Creations and expectations of Creator from Creations > > - Advisories for Mohammed alone > > - Advisories for everyone > > - Advisories for specific times > > - Advisories valid in perpetuity for ever after > > - Commentaries of the times before Mohammed that may or may not > be advisories in perpetutity for ever after > > Kshmendra > > > --- On *Wed, 4/22/09, Venugopalan K M * wrote: > > From: Venugopalan K M > Subject: Fwd: My Brief Review of Women and Islam on the Shelfari Page > To: "sarai-list" > Date: Wednesday, April 22, 2009, 6:25 PM > > > > ---------- Forwarded message ---------- > From: Venugopalan K M > Date: Wed, Apr 22, 2009 at 6:23 PM > Subject: Fwd: My Brief Review of Women and Islam on the Shelfari Page > To: > > > Respected friends, > Kindly send in your comments; I expect to be benefited by them as I shortly > intend to publish a translation of the work in Malayalam, which is my > mother tongue. > Warmly, > Venu. > > Women and Islam: An Historical and Theological Enquiry > by Fatima Mernissi > In this book the author, who is both a feminist and a Muslim, aims to shed > light on the status of women in Islam by examining and reassessing the > literary sources as far back as 7th century Islam. She portrays how, far > from being the oppressor of women that his detractors have claimed, the > Prophet upheld the equality of all true believers. Here is a bold > reconciliation of feminism with the... (more) > > kmvenuannur > o Rated 0 stars > > “ Fatima Mernissi has done an epoch making and scholarly exploration > of the Suras (original Quranic verses) and the Hadits (accounts by the > Companions of the Prophet about how the Messenger of God responded to > challenging moments in the lives of first generation of > believers,methodically cross checked and compiled by religious scholars who > lived in the first two centuries of Islam) along with the interpretations > since then. The major findings of the author are the following: > 1. The Prophet undoubtedly wanted no separation between the public and > private realms of life. > 2. His vision of a monotheistic universal faith is absolutely > egalitarian and that is a world in which women could shoulder equal roles > with that of men in political, social and economic realms with a view to > creating a new world that would assure peace and happiness to all humans. > 3. While Islam would not sanction the practice of slavery among the > believers, continuation of that institution for several centuries was > possible in the actual islamic regimes thanks to the denial of option (to > the new religion )to the prisoners of wars, who were mostly women from the > pre Islamic kingdoms. However,their chidren were considered free persons. > These women were treated as slaves and they were traded off or exchanged as > booty. > 4.The descend of Hijab,the physical as well as the symbolicl > separation of private and public spaces happened as a response to the grave > crisis in the Medina priod,which corresponded to the later phase in the life > of the Prophet. Years between Hejra 3-8 (AD 625- 628) were crtical periods > of crisis characterized by severe losses and uncertainity both on the side > of military expetitions and on the socio-economic life of people. > 5. Evenwhile the Prophet together with his wives and many of the > articulate women in the Medinese city continued adherence to the principle > of equality( between men and women) , they encountered lot of social abuses > on account of this. > 6. The prominent of the male Companions led by his son in law Umer > continuously pressed on the Prophet to impose restrictions for women. They > persisted on the view that solution to the above crisis of credibility and > above all the insecurity, was in the separation of the Muslim space into > two- public space was to be preserved as exclusive domain of men, and the > private space as the secluded space for women- both these spaces to be > separated by a Hijab- > 7. The Hijab ultimately descended from the Heaven as revealed to the > Prophet during the night of a wedding dinner in connection with his first > night with Zainab in the year Hejra 5 (AD 627). The immediate provocation of > the incident, according to a Hadith, was boorish behaviour of three men who > continued to linger there chatting, sitting in the room without leaving the > place even after the dinner; Prophet was eagerly waiting to be left alone in > the company of Zainab,his new bride sitting in the same room. ” > kmvenuannur wrote this review 1 minute ago. ( reply | edit |permalink > ) > > > > > -- http://venukm.blogspot.com/ _________________________________________ reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. Critiques & Collaborations To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with subscribe in the subject header. To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> From javedmasoo at gmail.com Thu Apr 23 14:42:17 2009 From: javedmasoo at gmail.com (M Javed) Date: Thu, 23 Apr 2009 14:42:17 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Fwd: My Brief Review of Women and Islam on the Shelfari Page In-Reply-To: <776167.60166.qm@web57202.mail.re3.yahoo.com> References: <1f9180970904220555u4bf082f7s69b985951c91c56c@mail.gmail.com> <776167.60166.qm@web57202.mail.re3.yahoo.com> Message-ID: Dear Kshmendra There is no medieval culture or civilization which didn't have slavery in it. In some places it is still existing in the form of castism. While it is true that the Quran or Prophet Muhammad did not abolish slavery, the movements to end it truly started in the Muslim world, much before it was abolished even in Europe. It would be interesting to take a look at a book which is even available online: Islam and the abolition of slavery By W. G. Clarence-Smith http://books.google.co.in/books?id=nQbylEdqJKkC&dq=islam+against+slavery&printsec=frontcover&source=in&hl=en&ei=oC3wSaKiM4zW6gO_4qCfDw&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=11#PPP1,M1 Please explain why do you say that most people go wrong when they try to read Quran with hadith. Almost all Islamic scholars are of the opinion that the cryptic nature of the Quran can be best understood by interpreting it through hadiths - the two cannot be understood without each other. I would like you to read on essay about some new work on the interpretation of hadith: http://www.isim.nl/files/review_21/review_21-6.pdf Javed On Wed, Apr 22, 2009 at 7:43 PM, Kshmendra Kaul wrote: > Dear Venugopalan > > Just a few comments on what you have written: > > - Mohammed's son-in-law was Ali (not Umer) > > - Slavery is institutionalised in Islam through the Quran. It comments on it and gives no injunction against it as being unacceptable > > - There is no advisory favouring the HIJAB in the Quran other than ONLY for the wives of Mohammed (this is open to interpretations). > > - Certain controversial advisories in the Quran and specifically the Law for Evidences, makes suspect a claim of 'equality between the sexes' as may be understood in secular terms > > - You err in referring to the 'monotheistic universal faith is absolutely egalitarian' of Islam as being a VISION of Mohammed. It is the VISION of ALLAH and not Mohammed. > > While on this subject; Most commentators on Islam including Muslims do wrong when they try to read the Quran in combination with the Hadith. The Hadith are sectarian and indeed political and may not always be in-line with the Quranic word, which makes some doubly suspect. > > Even in the reading of the Quran (and this is solely my own understanding), it would help both Muslims and Non-Muslims to understand things better if they were to identify the following aspects: > > - Self-declatory by Allah. A generalised commentary on  Creator and the Creations and expectations of Creator from Creations > > - Advisories for Mohammed alone > > - Advisories for everyone > > - Advisories for specific times > > - Advisories valid in perpetuity for ever after > > - Commentaries of the times before Mohammed that may or may not be advisories  in perpetutity for ever after > > Kshmendra > > > --- On Wed, 4/22/09, Venugopalan K M wrote: > > From: Venugopalan K M > Subject: Fwd: My Brief Review of Women and Islam on the Shelfari Page > To: "sarai-list" > Date: Wednesday, April 22, 2009, 6:25 PM > > > > > > ---------- Forwarded message ---------- > From: Venugopalan K M > Date: Wed, Apr 22, 2009 at 6:23 PM > Subject: Fwd: My Brief Review of Women and Islam on the Shelfari Page > To: > > > > Respected friends, > Kindly send in your comments; I expect to be benefited by them as I shortly intend to publish a translation of the work  in Malayalam, which is my mother tongue. > Warmly, > Venu. > > > > > > > > Women and Islam: An Historical and Theological Enquiry > by Fatima Mernissi > In this book the author, who is both a feminist and a Muslim, aims to shed light on the status of women in Islam by examining and reassessing the literary sources as far back as 7th century Islam. She portrays how, far from being the oppressor of women that his detractors have claimed, the Prophet upheld the equality of all true believers. Here is a bold reconciliation of feminism with the... (more) > >      kmvenuannur >          o Rated 0 stars > >      “ Fatima Mernissi has done an epoch making and scholarly exploration of the Suras (original Quranic verses) and the Hadits (accounts by the Companions of the Prophet about how the Messenger of God responded to challenging moments in the lives of first generation of believers,methodically cross checked and compiled by religious scholars who lived in the first two centuries of Islam) along with the interpretations since then. The major findings of the author are the following: >      1. The Prophet undoubtedly wanted no separation between the public and private realms of life. >      2. His vision of a monotheistic universal faith is absolutely egalitarian and that is a world in which women could shoulder equal roles with that of men in political, social and economic realms with a view to creating a new world that would assure peace and happiness to all humans. >      3. While Islam would not sanction the practice of slavery among the believers, continuation of that institution for several centuries was possible in the actual islamic regimes thanks to the denial of option (to the new religion )to the prisoners of wars, who were mostly women from the pre Islamic kingdoms. However,their chidren were considered free persons. These women were treated as slaves and they were traded off or exchanged as booty. >      4.The descend of Hijab,the physical as well as the symbolicl separation of private and public spaces happened as a response to the grave crisis in the Medina priod,which corresponded to the later phase in the life of the Prophet. Years between Hejra 3-8 (AD 625- 628) were crtical periods of crisis characterized by severe losses and uncertainity both on the side of military expetitions and on the socio-economic life of people. >      5. Evenwhile the Prophet together with his wives and many of the articulate women in the Medinese city continued adherence to the principle of equality( between men and women) , they encountered lot of social abuses on account of this. >      6. The prominent of the male Companions led by his son in law Umer continuously pressed on the Prophet to impose restrictions for women. They persisted on the view that solution to the above crisis of credibility and above all the insecurity, was in the separation of the Muslim space into two- public space was to be preserved as exclusive domain of men, and the private space as the secluded space for women- both these spaces to be separated by a Hijab- >      7. The Hijab ultimately descended from the Heaven as revealed to the Prophet during the night of a wedding dinner in connection with his first night with Zainab in the year Hejra 5 (AD 627). The immediate provocation of the incident, according to a Hadith, was boorish behaviour of three men who continued to linger there chatting, sitting in the room without leaving the place even after the dinner; Prophet was eagerly waiting to be left alone in the company of Zainab,his new bride sitting in the same room. ” >      kmvenuannur wrote this review 1 minute ago. ( reply | edit |permalink ) > > > > > > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with subscribe in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: From rajen882uppinangadi at gmail.com Thu Apr 23 16:19:58 2009 From: rajen882uppinangadi at gmail.com (Rajen Uppinangadi) Date: Thu, 23 Apr 2009 16:19:58 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Brahminical dominence ? In-Reply-To: <1f9180970904220306l72e0fc41m47877a0ca36dc4d4@mail.gmail.com> References: <61164a90904210401k462156f8u40f90cea6a76c155@mail.gmail.com> <1f9180970904210520i7b46f3der639cf53ef5821d0@mail.gmail.com> <61164a90904212310x745fa773k4094027432b2420c@mail.gmail.com> <1f9180970904220157m18b3e581q41c51526fa881c0c@mail.gmail.com> <61164a90904220237y256dae16saa0ad6e6b5f31314@mail.gmail.com> <1f9180970904220306l72e0fc41m47877a0ca36dc4d4@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <61164a90904230349o2b185ac3g58d1b479e6314444@mail.gmail.com> Hi, Venu, That is democracy at work, as you and me have our right to opinions, perceptions and understanding different events according to our intellect, but to condemn all other opinions and perceptions as any one "Label" is fascist, undemocratic. You are entitled to your opinion, I respect it, try to give my two pennies to get better understanding of the thoughts, but to condemn everything as brahminical, that too in a land where matriarchal traditions are strong even today, that is Kerala is down right amusing to me. As to chastity of men and women in marriage, it is valid even today, if one goes to courts and study the grounds for divorce, may be in kingdoms that, the proceedings of rule of kings, was different.?In traditional families the honesty, integrity and good character of men and women do count whatever the modernity may thrust in society. As to sri ramasena and many such band of hooligans, it is the will, political will to implement the laws, rule of laws, that really matters. In some areas, hooligans roam around the strike call, in many other areas, the hooligans do the moral policing,bundh calls are enforced by coercion are all wrong instances where will of the muscle rules not rule of laws. Again I do not blame this on "brahminical" thoughts " but on the greed of the so called leaders who practically have no support of the masses, but enforce their agendas on the individuals., by muscle and money power. Regards, Rajen. On Wed, Apr 22, 2009 at 3:36 PM, Venugopalan K M wrote: > I have no difficulty to accept your take here, as a wishful thinking; > Nevertheless, I was concerned with the way in which you presented the > epic instance of ousting of Sita by Ram as a model of how the rulers > respond to public opinion in 'positive' ways. In my reading it is far > from the ideal way; > further , I would say that Ram was terribly inhuman in having > disguised his aspersions about Sita's chastity into a matter of > 'public concern'! But, Brahmanism had always this kind of duping > methods.This terrifying instance of putting Sita to a test by fire and > finally banishing her to the forests, lives through the memories of > generations of Hindus. The arguments justifying this on the ground of > public opinion will only satisfy unquestioning devotees and not > others; even many of his pious devotees had accepted this story only > with a pinch of salt and thus we have different versions in Uthara > Ramayanam (the story of Lav - Kush,etc) .Whatever is this, > patriarchy is still reigning and Sree Ram Senes are at large though > not without opposition from ever larger sections of people challenging > them. > Thanks, > Venu. > > > On Wed, Apr 22, 2009 at 3:07 PM, Rajen Uppinangadi > wrote: > > Hi, > > > > Venu, > > > > it is hilarious when you say that I support Ramarajya, because it is > > fallacious to say the least, in democracy that kings and kingdoms exist > in > > free India. To that matter when Vijayaraje scindhiya crowned herself with > > titles of shriman and also her sister, she got ousted along with her > > sycophants.Ms. Vijayaraje was only chief minister, and she wasted the > public > > money in aircrafts and palace offices and public opinion went against > her, > > that is the power of public opinion in democracy. > > > > Public opinion is when something not acceptable to all public happens > it > > is protested in most peaceful of the means, like the elections after > > emergency of Indira Priyadarshini. It has reflected in west Bengal in > gram > > panchayath elections in the two disturbed districts when CPM went out of > the > > way with bullets and rape to oblige the salim group and the Tatas with > > industries, what can be done by system of governance in peaceful, ways > was > > tried to be done with force of committed goon cadres, thus another goon > > brigade of Mamatha had the chance to flex muscles again proving that > > violence begets more of it.? > > > > In democratic life, as citizen all that I expect is good governance > > without discrimination based on caste, faith or regio or religion, and > > gender.All citizens must get the benefit of good governance and thus > > opportunities to educate, jobs and life skills to better life, that is > good > > governance. As to NDA rule and India shining, it was indeed India shining > in > > parts because of the good highways, but all inclusive growth was not > > achieved and the contraxt was stark. But UPA, the governance was of > > kickbacks, as prices rise because of this, economy was totally dismissive > of > > the poor citizens and the result will show the position of Congress, the > > lead player in UPA, that dishonesty does not pay as dishonest methods > were > > used to be in power. > > > > One thing is certain, with divided polity with caste parties and > regional > > satraps controlling vote banks trained by Congress, the shisyas have > become > > experts giving lessons to national parties in corruption and bad > > governance.?Glue that held the coalition was to save the corrupt from > > prosecution, thus with fractured mandate, again the corrupt will be in > > bargaining positions to stay in power unless the public opinion is strong > to > > keep out the criminals in Parliament.When honest prime minister used > > dishonest means to be honest, he has abetted the crime as well. > > > > Regards, > > > > Rajen. > > > > On Wed, Apr 22, 2009 at 2:27 PM, Venugopalan K M > > wrote: > >> > >> >"..."As to Rama Rajya, let it be remembered that Rama was kshatriya > >> king who administered his subjects wth care and concern for public > >> opinion. A doubt about his own wife as expressed by a subject made him > >> take the harsh step to send his wife to the forests when she was > >> pregnent, to the Ashram. Todays leaders do not care for the public > >> opinion as much as they did , but generate public opinion thru media > >> and other means for their agendas, is my perception".." > >> > >> But that is excatly what I would rather take objection to not just > >> your concept of 'Rajya' but also its iconic hero, Ram. > >> Please excuse me when I say that this vulgar expression of > >> "prajahitham"(public opinion) against a poor woman is nothing > >> different from its newer versions of "hithams" of Sri Ram Senes! > >> > >> While it is repugnant to humanity, seen even by the standards of > >> ancient monarchy it is much more unacceptable to the standards of > >> human rights of our age. It would be a grave instance of atrocity > >> perpetrated against women with impunity by the kings in the name of > >> 'public opinion'. What sort of king was he to grow suspicious of the > >> chastity of his queen lived in forced exile , and yet to take recourse > >> to 'public opinion' (most probably manufactured) to justify throwing > >> her to fire? What bloody business this poor dhobi family had to > >> suspect Sita as a bad woman? In my understanding, this is nothing but > >> projection of source of one's own ill feeling to someone else, > >> skulking away from taking up the moral responsibility. The kind of > >> relationship the king had with the queen, perhaps might have gone to > >> deep trouble even otherwise. > >> > >> Well, this tendency to dupe people by spreading cock and bull stories > >> about dharma in an effort to justify the most grotesque violence > >> against women and the lower caste people might be part of the essence > >> of Ramarajya of the past as well as the present, and this is what many > >> people call Brahmanism. Whatever you call this, you are supporting > >> this and suggesting that 'Rama Rajya ' would help us cure of our ills. > >> The headache is yours and not of others who don't want to believe > >> these parables over laden with instruments of moral policing. > >> Regards, > >> Venu > >> . > >> > >> > >> > >> 22, 2009 at 11:40 AM, Rajen Uppinangadi > >> wrote: > >> > Hi, > >> > > >> > Venu; > >> > > >> > Such general sweeping comments do not hold water in pluralistic > >> > society > >> > like this free India. To condemn the "brahminical" thinking itself is > >> > absurd, as brahminical way of thinking is for "sarve jana sukhino > >> > bhavanthu, > >> > in Vasudaiva kutumbakam. > >> > > >> > While it is true that in every faith, the women are subjugated, > denied > >> > education and are less privileged with rights and the accent is more > on > >> > their duties, it is absurd to say that hindu way of life encourages > such > >> > in > >> > equality, for if it was so, gargi and maithreyi would not have had the > >> > place > >> > in the arguments for the society.The marad killings would not have > >> > happened > >> > when children and women were massacred in your backyard of Kerala. > Shah > >> > Bano > >> > case would not have been the instance to talk about where livelihood > was > >> > denied for a woman.Compared to other faiths, hindu way of life has > >> > exceptional place for women in modern living, unlike taliban which > >> > shoots > >> > down the couple if found walking together, the mullas would not > proclaim > >> > fathwas for the saving of a father for raping his own daughter. With > >> > changing times, it is reforms that have taken place in hindu way of > life > >> > from within religion rather than outside, thanks to persons like Raja > >> > Rammohan Roy, Jyothi Phule , and many other reformists, in modern > times > >> > even > >> > Ambedkar has contributed his might to reforms in the way society > treats > >> > the > >> > oppressed. But the political will to reforms in society has to come > from > >> > within the society as no amounts of laws can change as seen in Dowry > >> > act, > >> > and the dowry menace is flourishing in all faiths.In fact, the roman > >> > catholic weddings in Kerala are notorious for the wedding and lavish > >> > dory > >> > angle to them, as clergy would bless the couple who part with > >> > substantially > >> > dirty, obscene amounts for such blessing of an arch bishop, as was > told > >> > to > >> > me by a bishop friend. > >> > > >> > So, to generalise the menace of oppression only to one way of life, > >> > hindu is > >> > not only reflects the general trend of condemning whatever is hindu, > as > >> > brahminical. As to Rama Rajya, let it be remembered that Rama was > >> > kshatriya > >> > king who administered his subjects wth care and concern for public > >> > opinion. > >> > A doubt about his own wife as expressed by a subject made him take the > >> > harsh > >> > step to send his wife to the forests when she was pregnent, to the > >> > Ashram. > >> > Todays leaders do not care for the public opinion as much as they did > , > >> > but > >> > generate public opinion thru media and other means for their agendas, > is > >> > my > >> > perception. > >> > > >> > Regards, > >> > > >> > Rajen. > >> > > >> > On Tue, Apr 21, 2009 at 5:50 PM, Venugopalan K M < > kmvenuannur at gmail.com> > >> > wrote: > >> >> > >> >> Dear Rajen, > >> >> > >> >> By adopting such a position on Brahmanical and Brahmanism, one will > >> >> stand > >> >> to lose the very usefulness of this important concept. As you were > >> >> stating > >> >> it has less to do with propagating hate than understanding the > >> >> exceptionally > >> >> institutionalized and ritualized hate in the social and cultural > life > >> >> of > >> >> India. > >> >> This is sure to raise lot of other questions: Why, for example > after > >> >> the > >> >> happening of the Khairlanji in September 2006 {almost the entire > people > >> >> of a > >> >> village participate in the act of parading > naked,raping,(women),killing > >> >> and > >> >> mutilating the bodies of the 4 victims who were members of a dalit > >> >> family > >> >> (converted to Budhism) }, the entire media kept silence for about one > >> >> month? > >> >> So , an understanding of Brahmanism together with Brahmanical ways > of > >> >> thinking, not only does not talk of Brahmans as persons but more as > a > >> >> collective and typically negative attitude. It is characterized by > >> >> defending privileges with respect to the ascending order of caste and > >> >> denying equality; significantly women of all castes are automatically > >> >> considered inferior to their male counterparts(this is also seen in > >> >> every > >> >> other religion; but practices of cruelty to widows ,women not giving > >> >> birth > >> >> to to male offsprings, not able to consummate marriage etc,etc are > >> >> viewed > >> >> with special contempt in the brahmanical Hinduism).The extremely > >> >> negative > >> >> attitude to change or reform is a direct result of a desire to > protect > >> >> the > >> >> system of privileges to the exclusion of others. These are generally > >> >> what > >> >> are considered as traits associated with Brahmanism.Unfortunately, > >> >> majority > >> >> of victims of this system of heirarchy are ideologically co-opted to > >> >> it; > >> >> they are not expected to doubt the system which is has been taught to > >> >> them > >> >> as divinely ordained.They are expected to just obey without grumbles > >> >> and > >> >> get better off in the future birth.(Chathrvarnam maya srushtam guna > >> >> karma > >> >> vibhagasa- The system has been created by me according to your past > >> >> karma > >> >> and your qualities and just do your caste-ordained duties-this is the > >> >> message of Bhagvan in Gita (Ch IX verse 32 ?..I don't remember it > >> >> correctly) > >> >> I'm not suggesting that every person believing in the Hindu > scriptures > >> >> and > >> >> the Gita would support mass murders and ritualistic killings of > dalits > >> >> as > >> >> happened in khairlanji..not that the media always will attempt to > cover > >> >> up > >> >> such incidents.To be certain, in the media controlled by the upper > >> >> caste > >> >> Hindus,there is always a tendency to underplay the unpleasant factors > >> >> related with caste. Gandhi was a great admirer and interpretor of > Gita > >> >> and > >> >> yet he was assassinated by Godse, who was a fanatic adherent of > >> >> Brahmanism.But even Gandhi believed in a Ramarajya of his own > >> >> notion..so are > >> >> the less enlightened 'Hindu' masses to a greater or lesser degree in > >> >> denying equality to women and lower castes, the very victims of > >> >> discriminations included.Then, not to speak of the tendency to resist > >> >> reservations and to monopolize knowledge and power by a minority. > >> >> Certainly, > >> >> the print media dominated by the upper caste plays a significant role > >> >> in > >> >> perpetuating the bias against the under privileged.The internet and > the > >> >> electronic media at a more globalized level, are able to challenge > this > >> >> privilege of the upper caste elites in significant ways. > >> >> Regards, > >> >> Venu. > >> >> > >> >> Regards, > >> >> Venu. > >> >> > >> >> > >> >> On Tue, Apr 21, 2009 at 4:31 PM, Rajen Uppinangadi > >> >> wrote: > >> >>> > >> >>> Hi, > >> >>> > >> >>> Venu, > >> >>> > >> >>> List is at times, makes up for the surprise packages for all > with > >> >>> undertones of "caste" and is casted with caste as theme of hate, if > >> >>> one > >> >>> post talks of twice born as brahmins, another talks of brahminical > >> >>> domination of media, which are again myths to say the least, if > >> >>> otherwise it > >> >>> is meant to be "learned" are brahmins, knowledgeable "caste", then > >> >>> may be > >> >>> it is acceptable but still as we strive for togetherness above the > >> >>> caste and > >> >>> faith conundrums of hate, it is really ammusing that of all you > start > >> >>> with > >> >>> this theme of hate on the basi of caste.? > >> >>> > >> >>> To illustrate, Mr. Kancha Illayya, regular columnist, who takes up > >> >>> issues of oppressed is a brahmin by his domination in media with the > >> >>> issues, > >> >>> just as sage Vishwamitra who gave the most potent manthra, Gayathri, > >> >>> is > >> >>> brahmin by his work, not by birth.? But contrary examples are also > are > >> >>> visible in society, where by birth some are brahmins, but behaviour > is > >> >>> that > >> >>> of worse than anyone, like the Dr. Murli manohar Joshi, in his acts > >> >>> and > >> >>> utterances.? Again, a journalist and lecturer in Physics., Dr. > Joshi, > >> >>> who > >> >>> blindly follows the rituals without knowing the reasons behind such > >> >>> rituals, > >> >>> is again worse off even as brahmin born, as birth does not give the > >> >>> right to > >> >>> oppress others.? For example, the meaning of twice born is that once > >> >>> the > >> >>> child is born, at the tender age of around 12 years, he is vowed to > go > >> >>> for > >> >>> higher studies to Benares, and the trip being in olden days, > >> >>> hazardous, it > >> >>> was presumed to be secong birth to undertake such a long journey for > >> >>> education, times have changed with chools imparting education at > hop, > >> >>> skip > >> >>> and jump distances from homes these days.? > >> >>> > >> >>> As to media and media houses, most of them are run atleast in > >> >>> Karnataka > >> >>> by Idigas, or theeyas, or known in slang as toddy tappers, so the > >> >>> education > >> >>> has changed everything, let us come out of this caste fixation, > judge > >> >>> the > >> >>> works rather than the caste.Visual media channels are again run by > >> >>> individuals who know how to run the business with trps, news is not > >> >>> what > >> >>> viewers want, but what the channels dish out as views in news in > this > >> >>> age of > >> >>> info-tainment. Otherwise how do you explain the anchors and their > >> >>> behaviour > >> >>> with type of presentation of "news" compared to western media, where > >> >>> anchors > >> >>> are better dressed with least exposure of made up face and bodies.? > >> >>> > >> >>> Regards, > >> >>> > >> >>> Rajen. > >> >>> > >> >>> > >> >> > >> >> > >> >> > >> >> -- > >> >> http://venukm.blogspot.com/ > >> > > >> > > >> > >> > >> > >> -- > >> http://venukm.blogspot.com/ > > > > > > > > -- > http://venukm.blogspot.com/ > From subuhimjiwani at yahoo.com Thu Apr 23 16:51:48 2009 From: subuhimjiwani at yahoo.com (Subuhi Jiwani) Date: Thu, 23 Apr 2009 04:21:48 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Reader-list] Fwd: Fw: Complaint against DNA's coverage of recent rape case in Mumbai In-Reply-To: References: <004a01c9c3e8$75771fe0$0501a8c0@bishakha6bbb1b> Message-ID: <836819.74354.qm@web51303.mail.re2.yahoo.com> And if you would like to continue the discussion, please visit: http://loudandproudbombay.wordpress.com/2009/04/23/mirror-has-the-company-of-its-rivals/ Mirror has the company of its rivals We’ve heard and read about the Mumbai Mirror’s (by now) infamous page 12 of its April 18 edition. On that page, the paper ran several readers’ letters criticising its decision to publish the victim’s statement in its entirety. It also printed an apology, but only for offending readers’ sensibilities. Despite our protest in front of The Times of India building, the Mirror ran two more readers’ letters on April 20 that supported its decision. One congratulated the paper for printing the critical responses and thereby, strengthening reader-editor interaction. The other underlined the need to highlight “such barbarity” and “understand the ordeal the girl went through”. While the Mirror deserves our mud-slinging, The Hindustan Times had run excerpts from the victim’s FIR in its April 16 edition. These excerpts do not divulge many of the graphic details of the violent act, but HT was the first to print the statement. As it turns out, these papers are facing tough competition from rivals in the English news media. DNA ran an article headlined “Why was she with sex men that night?” on April 21, the day that Vinamra Soni, the sixth accused, appeared in court for his anticipatory bail hearing. The headline is a paraphrased version of what appears in Soni’s bail application. Disturbingly, the victim’s being out at night with the six accused, the only woman among a group of men, leads the lawyers to conclude that the what happened wasn’t rape but consensual sex. The application reads: “The act of the victim accompanying the accused persons who was lonely lady (sic) with six male persons in long midnight itself shows the nature of the victim and therefore, whatever would have happened might be due to willingness of the victim (sic).” The article even goes on to quote Soni’s lawyer Patil as saying that the victim tried to extort money from the accused after the alleged rape. What might be the implications of publishing an article such as this? Could the defense have been using the media not only to cast aspersions on the victim’s character but also to influence public opinion in its favour? If the media justifies this act with its “getting both sides of the story” thumb rule, we need to ask: What two sides are they talking about? To my knowledge, the victim or her lawyers have not yet spoken to the media and her statement was published without her or her lawyers’ knowledge. Finally, what might make for good, responsible reporting in a case like this? – Subuhi Jiwani From subuhimjiwani at yahoo.com Thu Apr 23 16:54:02 2009 From: subuhimjiwani at yahoo.com (Subuhi Jiwani) Date: Thu, 23 Apr 2009 04:24:02 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Reader-list] Complaint against Mid-Day coverage of TISS rape case In-Reply-To: References: <004a01c9c3e8$75771fe0$0501a8c0@bishakha6bbb1b> Message-ID: <499850.14986.qm@web51306.mail.re2.yahoo.com> ---------- Forwarded message ---------- From: Subuhi Jiwani Date: 2009/4/23 Subject: In response to "TISS rape accused was the 'nicest guy' in school: Blog" To: mailbag at mid-day.com Dear Editor, I am writing in response to your article "TISS rape accused was the 'nicest guy' in school: Blog" which appeared on page 5 of your newspaper on April 23, 2009. It seems immaterial whether Jaskaran Bhullar, one of six the accused in a gang rape case, was the 'nicest guy in school' or whether he 'respected women'. Such character affirmations only tilt public opinion in the favour of the six accused. This is especially so since the other accused in the case, Vinamra Soni, whose 'good character' is also vouched for by the writer of the blog, has publicly cast aspersions on the victim. Besides, why is so much space being given to the blog posts of Tarush Agarwal, the best friend of the two accused mentioned above? Why are his opinions being deemed newsworthy? Agarwal has also been quoted as saying that Jaskaran and Vinamra "do regular guy-like things but at the same time have a strong influence of Indian culture". It is clear from this comment that Indian culture is supposed to imply good, upright behavior and it is insinuated that those who are not Indian, the victim in this case, may be loose, forward and not upright. I find this kind of reporting terribly biased and one-sided and am shocked that you would publish it. Subuhi Jiwani Andheri From subuhimjiwani at yahoo.com Thu Apr 23 17:05:56 2009 From: subuhimjiwani at yahoo.com (Subuhi Jiwani) Date: Thu, 23 Apr 2009 04:35:56 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Reader-list] Complaint against Mid-Day coverage of TISS rape case In-Reply-To: <499850.14986.qm@web51306.mail.re2.yahoo.com> References: <004a01c9c3e8$75771fe0$0501a8c0@bishakha6bbb1b> <499850.14986.qm@web51306.mail.re2.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <578080.80598.qm@web51302.mail.re2.yahoo.com> Dear Sarai List, Apologies for so many emails about the same topic. I forgot to include the Mid-Day article in my last email. Here it is. Subuhi http://www.mid-day.com/news/2009/apr/230409-Mumbai-News-TISS-student-rape-case-Vinamra-Soni-blog-nicest-student-blogger.htm TISS rape accused was the 'nicest guy' in school: Blog By: A correspondent Date: 2009-04-23 Mumbai: They may have been accused for raping the TISS student, but friends of Vinamra Soni (21) and Jaskaran Singh Bhullar's (20) have not given up on them. A friend of the two has floated a blog appealing netizens to give Soni and Bhullar a second chance. The blog titled 'They din't do it' (sic) created by their schoolmate Tarush Agarwal, who studied with the duo in Loyola School, Jamshedpur, requests the public to hear their side of the story before passing a judgment. In his post, Tarush writes: "I will continue to write to defend my best friends, for I firmly believe they could not commit this heinous crime. I would like to mention, Jask, apart from being the bearer of the friendliest, nicest, and cutest guy trophy is also a brother of three adorable sisters and he respects women." In an e-mail response to MiD DAY, Agarwal who is currently in USA, said, "Through this blog, I want people to know that there could be a different side to the story. I want them to know that Jaskaran and Vinamra are nice boys, who do regular guy-like things, but at the same time have a strong influence of Indian culture." Tarush also mentions in the post that Soni and Bhullar were in a train when they heard of the case being filed and were consequently asked by their parents to get off the train, wait for them and then surrender to the police. ________________________________ From: Subuhi Jiwani To: Shilpa Phadke ; "reader-list at sarai.net" Sent: Thursday, April 23, 2009 4:54:02 PM Subject: [Reader-list] Complaint against Mid-Day coverage of TISS rape case ---------- Forwarded message ---------- From: Subuhi Jiwani Date: 2009/4/23 Subject: In response to "TISS rape accused was the 'nicest guy' in school: Blog" To: mailbag at mid-day.com Dear Editor, I am writing in response to your article "TISS rape accused was the 'nicest guy' in school: Blog" which appeared on page 5 of your newspaper on April 23, 2009. It seems immaterial whether Jaskaran Bhullar, one of six the accused in a gang rape case, was the 'nicest guy in school' or whether he 'respected women'. Such character affirmations only tilt public opinion in the favour of the six accused. This is especially so since the other accused in the case, Vinamra Soni, whose 'good character' is also vouched for by the writer of the blog, has publicly cast aspersions on the victim. Besides, why is so much space being given to the blog posts of Tarush Agarwal, the best friend of the two accused mentioned above? Why are his opinions being deemed newsworthy? Agarwal has also been quoted as saying that Jaskaran and Vinamra "do regular guy-like things but at the same time have a strong influence of Indian culture". It is clear from this comment that Indian culture is supposed to imply good, upright behavior and it is insinuated that those who are not Indian, the victim in this case, may be loose, forward and not upright. I find this kind of reporting terribly biased and one-sided and am shocked that you would publish it. Subuhi Jiwani Andheri _________________________________________ reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. Critiques & Collaborations To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with subscribe in the subject header. To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> From c.anupam at gmail.com Thu Apr 23 17:12:27 2009 From: c.anupam at gmail.com (anupam chakravartty) Date: Thu, 23 Apr 2009 17:12:27 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Fwd: The Girl in the Window In-Reply-To: <8cd502970904230258te68d300gc6f4690f24b3f2ea@mail.gmail.com> References: <82afb4ca0904230040j48189e18nebb669208ad20928@mail.gmail.com> <5c895c140904230205x2d33a0c2qe180276023b8f43b@mail.gmail.com> <8cd502970904230258te68d300gc6f4690f24b3f2ea@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <341380d00904230442j778068b4nb6e0eaa786bb30ff@mail.gmail.com> *Dear reader, first go through the slide show, then read the article http://zreportage.com/COCOON/COCOON_Slideshow.shtml The Girl in the Window* *Text by: © Lane DeGregory/St. Petersburg Times/ZUMA* *On Apr. 20, 2009 the 2009 Pulitzer Prize for Feature Writing was awarded to Lane DeGregory of the *St. Petersburg Times*. DeGregory's amazing words brought to life the moving, richly detailed story of a neglected little girl, who was found in a roach-infested room, unable to talk or feed herself. The girl, Dani Lierow, has since been adopted by a new family committed to her nurturing. "The Girl in the Window: The Dani Lierow Story, Coming Out of the Cocoon" is a beautiful tender picture essay by photographer Melissa Lyttle, that accompanied DeGregory's text. This story was the zReportage.com "Story of the Week," the week of August 12, 2008* PLANT CITY — The family had lived in the rundown rental house for almost three years when someone first saw a child's face in the window. A little girl, pale, with dark eyes, lifted a dirty blanket above the broken glass and peered out, one neighbor remembered. Everyone knew a woman lived in the house with her boyfriend and two adult sons. But they had never seen a child there, had never noticed anyone playing in the overgrown yard. The girl looked young, 5 or 6, and thin. Too thin. Her cheeks seemed sunken; her eyes were lost. The child stared into the square of sunlight, then slipped away. Months went by. The face never reappeared. Just before noon on July 13, 2005, a Plant City police car pulled up outside that shattered window. Two officers went into the house — and one stumbled back out. Clutching his stomach, the rookie retched in the weeds. Plant City Detective Mark Holste had been on the force for 18 years when he and his young partner were sent to the house on Old Sydney Road to stand by during a child abuse investigation. Someone had finally called the police. They found a car parked outside. The driver's door was open and a woman was slumped over in her seat, sobbing. She was an investigator for the Florida Department of Children and Families. "Unbelievable," she told Holste. "The worst I've ever seen." The police officers walked through the front door, into a cramped living room. "I've been in rooms with bodies rotting there for a week and it never stunk that bad," Holste said later. "There's just no way to describe it. Urine and feces — dog, cat and human excrement — smeared on the walls, mashed into the carpet. Everything dank and rotting." Tattered curtains, yellow with cigarette smoke, dangling from bent metal rods. Cardboard and old comforters stuffed into broken, grimy windows. Trash blanketing the stained couch, the sticky counters. The floor, walls, even the ceiling seemed to sway beneath legions of scuttling roaches. "It sounded like you were walking on eggshells. You couldn't take a step without crunching German cockroaches," the detective said. "They were in the lights, in the furniture. Even inside the freezer. The freezer!" While Holste looked around, a stout woman in a faded housecoat demanded to know what was going on. Yes, she lived there. Yes, those were her two sons in the living room. Her daughter? Well, yes, she had a daughter . . . The detective strode past her, down a narrow hall. He turned the handle on a door, which opened into a space the size of a walk-in closet. He squinted in the dark. At his feet, something stirred. First he saw the girl's eyes: dark and wide, unfocused, unblinking. She wasn't looking at him so much as through him. She lay on a torn, moldy mattress on the floor. She was curled on her side, long legs tucked into her emaciated chest. Her ribs and collarbone jutted out; one skinny arm was slung over her face; her black hair was matted, crawling with lice. Insect bites, rashes and sores pocked her skin. Though she looked old enough to be in school, she was naked — except for a swollen diaper. "The pile of dirty diapers in that room must have been 4 feet high," the detective said. "The glass in the window had been broken, and that child was just lying there, surrounded by her own excrement and bugs." When he bent to lift her, she yelped like a lamb. "It felt like I was picking up a baby," Holste said. "I put her over my shoulder, and that diaper started leaking down my leg." The girl didn't struggle. Holste asked, What's your name, honey? The girl didn't seem to hear. He searched for clothes to dress her, but found only balled-up laundry, flecked with feces. He looked for a toy, a doll, a stuffed animal. "But the only ones I found were covered in maggots and roaches." Choking back rage, he approached the mother. How could you let this happen? "The mother's statement was: 'I'm doing the best I can,' " the detective said. "I told her, 'The best you can sucks!' " He wanted to arrest the woman right then, but when he called his boss he was told to let DCF do its own investigation. So the detective carried the girl down the dim hall, past her brothers, past her mother in the doorway, who was shrieking, "Don't take my baby!" He buckled the child into the state investigator's car. The investigator agreed: They had to get the girl out of there. "Radio ahead to Tampa General," the detective remembers telling his partner. "If this child doesn't get to a hospital, she's not going to make it." Her name, her mother had said, was Danielle. She was almost 7 years old. She weighed 46 pounds. She was malnourished and anemic. In the pediatric intensive care unit they tried to feed the girl, but she couldn't chew or swallow solid food. So they put her on an IV and let her drink from a bottle. Aides bathed her, scrubbed the sores on her face, trimmed her torn fingernails. They had to cut her tangled hair before they could comb out the lice. Her caseworker determined that she had never been to school, never seen a doctor. She didn't know how to hold a doll, didn't understand peek-a-boo. "Due to the severe neglect," a doctor would write, "the child will be disabled for the rest of her life." Hunched in an oversized crib, Danielle curled in on herself like a potato bug, then writhed angrily, kicking and thrashing. To calm herself, she batted at her toes and sucked her fists. "Like an infant," one doctor wrote. She wouldn't make eye contact. She didn't react to heat or cold — or pain. The insertion of an IV needle elicited no reaction. She never cried. With a nurse holding her hands, she could stand and walk sideways on her toes, like a crab. She couldn't talk, didn't know how to nod yes or no. Once in a while she grunted. She couldn't tell anyone what had happened, what was wrong, what hurt. Dr. Kathleen Armstrong, director of pediatric psychology at the University of South Florida medical school, was the first psychologist to examine Danielle. She said medical tests, brain scans, and vision, hearing and genetics checks found nothing wrong with the child. She wasn't deaf, wasn't autistic, had no physical ailments such as cerebral palsy or muscular dystrophy. The doctors and social workers had no way of knowing all that had happened to Danielle. But the scene at the house, along with Danielle's almost comatose condition, led them to believe she had never been cared for beyond basic sustenance. Hard as it was to imagine, they doubted she had ever been taken out in the sun, sung to sleep, even hugged or held. She was fragile and beautiful, but whatever makes a person human seemed somehow missing. Armstrong called the girl's condition "environmental autism." Danielle had been deprived of interaction for so long, the doctor believed, that she had withdrawn into herself. The most extraordinary thing about Danielle, Armstrong said, was her lack of engagement with people, with anything. "There was no light in her eye, no response or recognition. . . . We saw a little girl who didn't even respond to hugs or affection. Even a child with the most severe autism responds to those." Danielle's was "the most outrageous case of neglect I've ever seen." The authorities had discovered the rarest and most pitiable of creatures: a feral child. The term is not a diagnosis. It comes from historic accounts — some fictional, some true — of children raised by animals and therefore not exposed to human nurturing. Wolf boys and bird girls, Tarzan, Mowgli from The Jungle Book. It's said that during the Holy Roman Empire, Frederick II gave a group of infants to some nuns. He told them to take care of the children but never to speak to them. He believed the babies would eventually reveal the true language of God. Instead, they died from the lack of interaction. Then there was the Wild Boy of Aveyron, who wandered out of the woods near Paris in 1800, naked and grunting. He was about 12. A teacher took him in and named him Victor. He tried to socialize the child, teach him to talk. But after several years, he gave up on the teen and asked the housekeeper to care for him. "In the first five years of life, 85 percent of the brain is developed," said Armstrong, the psychologist who examined Danielle. "Those early relationships, more than anything else, help wire the brain and provide children with the experience to trust, to develop language, to communicate. They need that system to relate to the world." The importance of nurturing has been shown again and again. In the 1960s, psychologist Harry Harlow put groups of infant rhesus monkeys in a room with two artificial mothers. One, made of wire, dispensed food. The other, of terrycloth, extended cradled arms. Though they were starving, the baby monkeys all climbed into the warm cloth arms. "Primates need comfort even more than they need food," Armstrong said. The most recent case of a feral child was in 1970, in California. A girl whom therapists came to call Genie had been strapped to a potty chair until she was 13. Like the Wild Boy, Genie was studied in hospitals and laboratories. She was in her 20s when doctors realized she'd never talk, never be able to take care of herself. She ended up in foster care, closed off from the world, utterly dependent. Danielle's case — which unfolded out of the public spotlight, without a word in the media — raised disturbing questions for everyone trying to help her. How could this have happened? What kind of mother would sit by year after year while her daughter languished in her own filth, starving and crawling with bugs? And why hadn't someone intervened? The neighbors, the authorities — where had they been? "It's mind-boggling that in the 21st century we can still have a child who's just left in a room like a gerbil," said Tracy Sheehan, Danielle's guardian in the legal system and now a circuit court judge. "No food. No one talking to her or reading her a story. She can't even use her hands. How could this child be so invisible?" But the most pressing questions were about her future. When Danielle was discovered, she was younger by six years than the Wild Boy or Genie, giving hope that she might yet be teachable. Many of her caregivers had high hopes they could make her whole. Danielle had probably missed the chance to learn speech, but maybe she could come to understand language, to communicate in other ways. Still, doctors had only the most modest ambitions for her. "My hope was that she would be able to sleep through the night, to be out of diapers and to feed herself," Armstrong said. If things went really well, she said, Danielle would end up "in a nice nursing home." Danielle spent six weeks at Tampa General before she was well enough to leave. But where could she go? Not home; Judge Martha Cook, who oversaw her dependency hearing, ordered that Danielle be placed in foster care and that her mother not be allowed to call or visit her. The mother was being investigated on criminal child abuse charges. "That child, she broke my heart," Cook said later. "We were so distraught over her condition, we agonized over what to do." Eventually, Danielle was placed in a group home in Land O'Lakes. She had a bed with sheets and a pillow, clothes and food, and someone at least to change her diapers. In October 2005, a couple of weeks after she turned 7, Danielle started school for the first time. She was placed in a special ed class at Sanders Elementary. "Her behavior was different than any child I'd ever seen," said Kevin O'Keefe, Danielle's first teacher. "If you put food anywhere near her, she'd grab it" and mouth it like a baby, he said. "She had a lot of episodes of great agitation, yelling, flailing her arms, rolling into a fetal position. She'd curl up in a closet, just to be away from everyone. She didn't know how to climb a slide or swing on a swing. She didn't want to be touched." It took her a year just to become consolable, he said. By Thanksgiving 2006 — a year and a half after Danielle had gone into foster care — her caseworker was thinking about finding her a permanent home. A nursing home, group home or medical foster care facility could take care of Danielle. But she needed more. "In my entire career with the child welfare system, I don't ever remember a child like Danielle," said Luanne Panacek, executive director of the Children's Board of Hillsborough County. "It makes you think about what does quality of life mean? What's the best we can hope for her? After all she's been through, is it just being safe?" That fall, Panacek decided to include Danielle in the Heart Gallery — a set of portraits depicting children available for adoption. The Children's Board displays the pictures in malls and on the Internet in hopes that people will fall in love with the children and take them home. In Hillsborough alone, 600 kids are available for adoption. Who, Panacek wondered, would choose an 8-year-old who was still in diapers, who didn't know her own name and might not ever speak or let you hug her? The day Danielle was supposed to have her picture taken for the Heart Gallery, she showed up with red Kool-Aid dribbled down her new blouse. She hadn't yet mastered a sippy cup. Garet White, Danielle's care manager, scrubbed the girl's shirt and washed her face. She brushed Danielle's bangs from her forehead and begged the photographer to please be patient. White stepped behind the photographer and waved at Danielle. She put her thumbs in her ears and wiggled her hands, stuck out her tongue and rolled her eyes. Danielle didn't even blink. White was about to give up when she heard a sound she'd never heard from Danielle. The child's eyes were still dull, apparently unseeing. But her mouth was open. She looked like she was trying to laugh. Click. Teenagers tore through the arcade, firing fake rifles. Sweaty boys hunched over air hockey tables. Girls squealed as they stomped on blinking squares. Bernie and Diane Lierow remember standing silently inside GameWorks in Tampa, overwhelmed. They had driven three hours from their home in Fort Myers Beach, hoping to meet a child at this foster care event. But all these kids seemed too wild, too big and, well, too worldly. Bernie, 48, remodels houses. Diane, 45, cleans homes. They have four grown sons from previous marriages and one together. Diane couldn't have any more children, and Bernie had always wanted a daughter. So last year, when William was 9, they decided to adopt. Their new daughter would have to be younger than William, they told foster workers. But she would have to be potty-trained and able to feed herself. They didn't want a child who might hurt their son, or who was profoundly disabled and unable to take care of herself. On the Internet they had found a girl in Texas, another in Georgia. Each time they were told, "That one is dangerous. She can't be with other children." That's why they were at this Heart Gallery gathering, scanning the crowd. Bernie's head ached from all the jangling games; Diane's stomach hurt, seeing all the abandoned kids; and William was tired of shooting aliens. Diane stepped out of the chaos, into an alcove beneath the stairs. That was when she saw it. A little girl's face on a flier, pale with sunken cheeks and dark hair chopped too short. Her brown eyes seemed to be searching for something. Diane called Bernie over. He saw the same thing she did. "She just looked like she needed us." Bernie and Diane are humble, unpretentious people who would rather picnic on their deck than eat out. They go to work, go to church, visit with their neighbors, walk their dogs. They don't travel or pursue exotic interests; a vacation for them is hanging out at home with the family. Shy and soft-spoken, they're both slow to anger and, they say, seldom argue. They had everything they ever wanted, they said. Except for a daughter. But the more they asked about Danielle, the more they didn't want to know. She was 8, but functioned as a 2-year-old. She had been left alone in a dank room, ignored for most of her life. No, she wasn't there at the video arcade; she was in a group home. She wore diapers, couldn't feed herself, couldn't talk. After more than a year in school, she still wouldn't make eye contact or play with other kids. No one knew, really, what was wrong with her, or what she might be capable of. "She was everything we didn't want," Bernie said. But they couldn't forget those aching eyes. Everyone told them not to do it, neighbors, co-workers, friends. Everyone said they didn't know what they were getting into. So what if Danielle is not everything we hoped for? Bernie and Diane answered. You can't pre-order your own kids. You take what God gives you. They brought her home on Easter weekend 2007. It was supposed to be a rebirth, of sorts — a baptism into their family. "It was a disaster," Bernie said. They gave her a doll; she bit off its hands. They took her to the beach; she screamed and wouldn't put her feet in the sand. Back at her new home, she tore from room to room, her swim diaper spewing streams across the carpet. She couldn't peel the wrapper from a chocolate egg, so she ate the shiny paper too. She couldn't sit still to watch TV or look at a book. She couldn't hold a crayon. When they tried to brush her teeth or comb her hair, she kicked and thrashed. She wouldn't lie in a bed, wouldn't go to sleep, just rolled on her back, side to side, for hours. All night she kept popping up, creeping sideways on her toes into the kitchen. She would pull out the frozen food drawer and stand on the bags of vegetables so she could see into the refrigerator. "She wouldn't take anything," Bernie said. "I guess she wanted to make sure the food was still there." When Bernie tried to guide her back to bed, Danielle railed against him and bit her own hands. In time, Danielle's new family learned what worked and what didn't. Her foster family had been giving her anti-psychotic drugs to mitigate her temper tantrums and help her sleep. When Bernie and Diane weaned her off the medication, she stopped drooling and started holding up her head. She let Bernie brush her teeth. Bernie and Diane already thought of Danielle as their daughter, but legally she wasn't. Danielle's birth mother did not want to give her up even though she had been charged with child abuse and faced 20 years in prison. So prosecutors offered a deal: If she waived her parental rights, they wouldn't send her to jail. She took the plea. She was given two years of house arrest, plus probation. And 100 hours of community service. In October 2007, Bernie and Diane officially adopted Danielle. They call her Dani. "Okay, let's put your shoes on. Do you need to go potty again?" Diane asks. It's an overcast Monday morning in spring 2008 and Dani is late for school. Again. She keeps flitting around the living room, ducking behind chairs and sofas, pulling at her shorts. After a year with her new family, Dani scarcely resembles the girl in the Heart Gallery photo. She has grown a foot and her weight has doubled. All those years she was kept inside, her hair was as dark as the dirty room she lived in. But since she started going to the beach and swimming in their backyard pool, Dani's shoulder-length hair has turned a golden blond. She still shrieks when anyone tries to brush it. The changes in her behavior are subtle, but Bernie and Diane see progress. They give an example: When Dani feels overwhelmed she retreats to her room, rolls onto her back, pulls one sock toward the end of her toes and bats it. For hours. Bernie and Diane tell her to stop. Now, when Dani hears them coming, she peels off her sock and throws it into the closet to hide it. She's learning right from wrong, they say. And she seems upset when she knows she has disappointed them. As if she cares how they feel. Bernie and Diane were told to put Dani in school with profoundly disabled children, but they insisted on different classes because they believe she can do more. They take her to occupational and physical therapy, to church and the mall and the grocery store. They have her in speech classes and horseback riding lessons. Once, when Dani was trying to climb onto her horse, the mother of a boy in the therapeutic class turned to Diane. "You're so lucky," Diane remembers the woman saying. "Lucky?" Diane asked. The woman nodded. "I know my son will never stand on his own, will never be able to climb onto a horse. You have no idea what your daughter might be able to do." Diane finds hope in that idea. She counts small steps to convince herself things are slowly improving. So what if Dani steals food off other people's trays at McDonald's? At least she can feed herself chicken nuggets now. So what if she already has been to the bathroom four times this morning? She's finally out of diapers. It took months, but they taught her to hold a stuffed teddy on the toilet so she wouldn't be scared to be alone in the bathroom. They bribed her with M&M's. "Dani, sit down and try to use the potty," Diane coaxes. "Pull down your shorts. That's a good girl." Every weekday, for half an hour, speech therapist Leslie Goldenberg tries to teach Dani to talk. She sits her in front of a mirror at a Bonita Springs elementary school and shows her how to purse her lips to make puffing sounds. "Puh-puh-puh," says the teacher. "Here, feel my mouth." She brings Dani's fingers to her lips, so she can feel the air. Dani nods. She knows how to nod now. Goldenberg puffs again. Leaning close to the mirror, Dani purses her lips, opens and closes them. No sound comes out. She can imitate the movement, but doesn't know she has to blow out air to make the noise. She bends closer, scowls at her reflection. Her lips open and close again, then she leaps up and runs across the room. She grabs a Koosh ball and bounces it rapidly. She's lost inside herself. Again. But in many ways, Dani already has surpassed the teacher's expectations, and not just in terms of speech. She seems to be learning to listen, and she understands simple commands. She pulls at her pants to show she needs to go to the bathroom, taps a juice box when she wants more. She can sit at a table for five-minute stretches, and she's starting to scoop applesauce with a spoon. She's down to just a few temper tantrums a month. She is learning to push buttons on a speaking board, to use symbols to show when she wants a book or when she's angry. She's learning it's okay to be angry: You can deal with those feelings without biting your own hands. "I'd like her to at least be able to master a sound board, so she can communicate her choices even if she never finds her voice," Goldenberg says. "I think she understands most of what we say. It's just that she doesn't always know how to — or want to — react." Dani's teacher and family have heard her say only a few words, and all of them seemed accidental. Once she blurted "baaa," startling Goldenberg to tears. It was the first letter sound she had ever made. She seems to talk most often when William is tickling her, as if something from her subconscious seeps out when she's too distracted to shut it off. Her brother has heard her say, "Stop!" and "No!" He thought he even heard her say his name. Having a brother just one year older is invaluable for Dani's development, her teacher says. She has someone to practice language with, someone who will listen. "Even deaf infants will coo," Goldenberg said. "But if no one responds, they stop." William says Dani frightened him at first. "She did weird things." But he always wanted someone to play with. He doesn't care that she can't ride bikes with him or play Monopoly. "I drive her around in my Jeep and she honks the horn," he says. "She's learning to match up cards and stuff." He couldn't believe she had never walked a dog or licked an ice cream cone. He taught her how to play peek-a-boo, helped her squish Play-Doh through her fingers. He showed her it was safe to walk on sand and fun to blow bubbles and okay to cry; when you hurt, someone comes. He taught her how to open a present. How to pick up tater tots and dunk them into a mountain of ketchup. William was used to living like an only child, but since Dani has moved in, she gets most of their parents' attention. "She needs them more than me," he says simply. He gave her his old toys, his "kid movies," his board books. He even moved out of his bedroom so she could sleep upstairs. His parents painted his old walls pink and filled the closet with cotton-candy dresses. They moved a daybed into the laundry room for William, squeezed it between the washing machine and Dani's rocking horse. Each night, the 10-year-old boy cuddles up with a walkie-talkie because "it's scary down here, all alone." After a few minutes, while his parents are trying to get Dani to bed, William always sneaks into the living room and folds himself into the love seat. He trades his walkie-talkie for a small stuffed Dalmatian and calls down the hall, "Good night, Mom and Dad. Good night, Dani." Some day, he's sure, she will answer. Even now, Dani won't sleep in a bed. Bernie bought her a new trundle so she can slide out the bottom bunk and be at floor level. Diane found pink Hello Kitty sheets and a stuffed glow worm so Dani will never again be alone in the dark. "You got your wormie? You ready to go to sleep?" Bernie asks, bending to pick up his daughter. She's turning slow circles beneath the window, holding her worm by his tail. Bernie lifts her to the glass and shows her the sun, slipping behind the neighbor's house. He hopes, one day, she might be able to call him "Daddy," to get married or at least live on her own. But if that doesn't happen, he says, "That's okay too. For me, it's all about getting the kisses and the hugs." For now, Bernie and Diane are content to give Dani what she never had before: comfort and stability, attention and affection. A trundle, a glow worm. Now Bernie tips Dani into bed, smooths her golden hair across the pillow. "Night-night," he says, kissing her forehead. "Good night, honey," Diane calls from the doorway. Bernie lowers the shade. As he walks past Dani, she reaches out and grabs his ankles. Part Three: The Mother She's out there somewhere, looming over Danielle's story like a ghost. To Bernie and Diane, Danielle's birth mother is a cipher, almost never spoken of. The less said, the better. As far as they are concerned Danielle was born the day they found her. And yet this unimaginable woman is out there somewhere, most likely still on probation, permanently unburdened of her daughter, and thinking — what? What can she possibly say? Nothing. Not a thing. But none of this makes any sense without her. Michelle Crockett lives in a mobile home in Plant City with her two 20-something sons, three cats and a closet full of kittens. The trailer is just down the road from the little house where she lived with Danielle. On a steamy afternoon a few weeks ago, Michelle opens the door wearing a long T-shirt. When she sees two strangers, she ducks inside and pulls on a housecoat. She's tall and stout, with broad shoulders and the sallow skin of a smoker. She looks tired, older than her 51 years. "My daughter?" she asks. "You want to talk about my daughter?" Her voice catches. Tears pool in her glasses. The inside of the trailer is modest but clean: dishes drying on the counter, silk flowers on the table. Sitting in her kitchen, chain-smoking 305s, she starts at the end: the day the detective took Danielle. "Part of me died that day," she says. Michelle says she was a student at the University of Tampa when she met a man named Bernie at a bar. It was 1976. He was a Vietnam vet, 10 years her senior. They got married and moved to Las Vegas, where he drove a taxi. Right away they had two sons, Bernard and Grant. The younger boy wasn't potty-trained until he was 4, didn't talk until he was 5. "He was sort of slow," Michelle says. In school, they put him in special ed. Her sons were teenagers when her husband got sick. Agent Orange, the doctors said. When he died in August 1997, Michelle filed for bankruptcy. Six months later, she met a man in a casino. He was in Vegas on business. She went back to his hotel room with him. "His name was Ron," she says. She shakes her head. "No, it was Bob. I think it was Bob." For hours Michelle Crockett spins out her story, tapping ashes into a plastic ashtray. Everything she says sounds like a plea, but for what? Understanding? Sympathy? She doesn't apologize. Far from it. She feels wronged. Danielle, she says, was born in a hospital in Las Vegas, a healthy baby who weighed 7 pounds, 6 ounces. Her Apgar score measuring her health was a 9, nearly perfect. "She screamed a lot," Michelle says. "I just thought she was spoiled." When Danielle was 18 months old, Michelle's mobile home burned down, so she loaded her two sons and baby daughter onto a Greyhound bus and headed to Florida, to bunk with a cousin. They lost their suitcases along the way, she says. The cousin couldn't take the kids. After a week, Michelle moved into a Brandon apartment with no furniture, no clothes, no dishes. She got hired as a cashier at Publix. But it was okay: "The boys were with her," she says. She says she has the paperwork to prove it. She goes to the boys' bathroom, returns with a box full of documents and hands it over. The earliest documents are from Feb. 11, 2002. That was when someone called the child abuse hotline on her. The caller reported that a child, about 3, was "left unattended for days with a retarded older brother, never seen wearing anything but a diaper." This is Michelle's proof that her sons were watching Danielle. The caller continued: "The home is filthy. There are clothes everywhere. There are feces on the child's seat and the counter is covered with trash." It's not clear what investigators found at the house, but they left Danielle with her mother that day. Nine months later, another call to authorities. A person who knew Michelle from the Moose Lodge said she was always there playing bingo with her new boyfriend, leaving her children alone overnight. "Not fit to be a mother," the caller said. The hotline operator took these notes: The 4-year-old girl "is still wearing a diaper and drinking from a baby bottle. On-going situation, worse since last August. Mom leaves Grant and Danielle at home for several days in a row while she goes to work and spends the night with a new paramour. Danielle . . . is never seen outside the home." Again the child abuse investigators went out. They offered Michelle free day care for Danielle. She refused. And they left Danielle there. Why? Didn't they worry about two separate calls to the hotline, months apart, citing the same concerns? "It's not automatic that because the home is dirty we'd remove the child," said Nick Cox, regional director of the Florida Department of Children and Families. "And what they found in 2002 was not like the scene they walked into in 2005." The aim, he said, is to keep the child with the parent, and try to help the parent get whatever services he or she might need. But Michelle refused help. And investigators might have felt they didn't have enough evidence to take Danielle, Cox said. "I'm concerned, though, that no effort was made to interview the child," he said. "If you have a 4-year-old who is unable to speak, that would raise a red flag to me. "I'm not going to tell you this was okay. I don't know how it could have happened." Michelle insists Danielle was fine. "I tried to potty-train her, she wouldn't train. I tried to get her into schools, no one would take her," she says in the kitchen of her trailer. The only thing she ever noticed was wrong, she says, "was that she didn't speak much. She talked in a soft tone. She'd say, ‘Let's go eat.' But no one could hear her except me." She says she took Danielle to the library and the park. "I took her out for pizza. Once." But she can't remember which library, which park or where they went for pizza. "She liked this song I'd sing her," Michelle says. "Miss Polly had a dolly, she was sick, sick, sick . . ." Michelle's older son, Bernard, told a judge that he once asked his mom why she never took Danielle to the doctor. Something's wrong with her, he remembered telling her. He said she answered, "If they see her, they might take her away." A few months after the second abuse call, Michelle and her kids moved in with her boyfriend in the rundown rental house in Plant City. The day the cops came, Michelle says, she didn't know what was wrong. The detective found Danielle in the back, sleeping. The only window in the small space was broken. Michelle had tacked a blanket across the shattered glass, but flies and beetles and roaches had crept in anyway. "My house was a mess," she says. "I'd been sick and it got away from me. But I never knew a dirty house was against the law." The cop walked past her, carrying Danielle. "He said she was starving. I told him me and my sisters were all skinny till we were 13. "I begged him, ‘Please, don't take my baby! Please!' " She says she put socks on her daughter before he took her to the car, but couldn't find any shoes. A judge ordered Michelle to have a psychological evaluation. That's among the documents, too. Danielle's IQ, the report says, is below 50, indicating "severe mental retardation." Michelle's is 77, "borderline range of intellectual ability." "She tended to blame her difficulties on circumstances while rationalizing her own actions," wrote psychologist Richard Enrico Spana. She "is more concerned with herself than most other adults, and this could lead her to neglect paying adequate attention to people around her." She wanted to fight for her daughter, she says, but didn't want to go to jail and didn't have enough money for a lawyer. "I tried to get people to help me," Michelle says. "They say I made her autistic. But how do you make a kid autistic? They say I didn't put clothes on her — but she just tore them off." After Danielle was taken away, Michelle says, she tripped over a box at Wal-Mart and got in a car accident and couldn't work anymore. In February, she went back to court and a judge waived her community service hours. She's on probation until 2012. She spends her days with her sons, doing crossword puzzles and watching movies. Sometimes they talk about Danielle. When Danielle was in the hospital, Michelle says, she and her sons sneaked in to see her. Michelle took a picture from the file: Danielle, drowning in a hospital gown, slumped in a bed that folded into a wheelchair. "That's the last picture I have of her," Michelle says. In her kitchen, she snubs out her cigarette. She crosses to the living room, where Danielle's image looks down from the wall. She reaches up and, with her finger, traces her daughter's face. "When I moved here," she says, "that was the first thing I hung." She says she misses Danielle. "Have you seen her?" Michelle asks. "Is she okay?" Is she okay? Danielle is better than anyone dared hope. She has learned to look at people and let herself be held. She can chew ham. She can swim. She's tall and blond and has a little belly. She knows her name is Dani. In her new room, she has a window she can look out of. When she wants to see outside, all she has to do is raise her arms and her dad is right behind her, waiting to pick her up. By Lane DeGregory, Times Staff --~--~---------~--~----~------------~-------~--~----~ You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "humanrights movement" group. To post to this group, send email to humanrights-movement at googlegroups.com To unsubscribe from this group, send email to humanrights-movement+unsubscribe at googlegroups.com For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/humanrights-movement?hl=en -~----------~----~----~----~------~----~------~--~--- From rajen882uppinangadi at gmail.com Thu Apr 23 17:15:49 2009 From: rajen882uppinangadi at gmail.com (Rajen Uppinangadi) Date: Thu, 23 Apr 2009 17:15:49 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Delay breeds corruption, EPIC cards and corruption, role of election commission in breeding corruption. Message-ID: <61164a90904230445x7fac2107ped4f6d6349d4e7c7@mail.gmail.com> Dear all, today we had the duty and right of casting our votes to the candidates of our choice to the parliament. On an average, Bangalore and its surrounding areas have seen average voting of about 56 percent, and this day, till around 11.30 am voting was brisk, averaged at around 23 percent. As I went to vote with my EPIC card, I saw that may were not so lucky to have their EPICs. Ofcourse I had to stand in Q for about three hours to get myself web-camerad, and then the image printed and laminated, I got the EPIC card after a wait of almost 5 hours.!Different options of proof of ID, such as ration card, driving license etc are there, but the most intriguing issue that comes to my mind is what does the election commission and its officials do, once the elections are over, as most of their work is outsourced.? For one, the list of voters is prepared by harassed school teachers in the hot sun for the election commission. Verification is again done by some others, not officials of the election commission. The issue of voters id, or EPIC is tendered out to nepotist contractors, who have one laptop, and a web camera , with lamination machine, and kickback is assured, I was told. Because quite a few touts were assuring the last minute efforts of the citizens to get their epics at a cost of 100 bucks door delivery.! Once the election is over, why can not these officials of the election commission attend to issue of EPIC themselves in their office instead of all these middle men, social workers and socialites in the loop.? The tender process is also such that only those with money and connections can get the benefit of the contract., as in all governmental contracts, these officials of EC appear very simpletons in front of the tv camera, claim to be honest, but some sting operation is necessary to get to the bottom of this epic business. When one of the members in this list, was posting about the national ID cards, and connected issues, it is a bigger event with more chances of bigger kickbacks, but as it is out of 100 crore population, the eligible voters are around 70 crores, of that issue of epics to many are incomplete, in many cases, one empty space has got 333 voters with same address( like in Hyderabad) ., all this shows how efficient the election commission works, and delay it causes to issue epics is in epic proportions, is causing bribery and corruption to thrive. Citizens can only hope that better work will be done.! I sincerly hope that efficiency will dawn on the election commission after this election, and major efforts will be made by those in election commission to avoid commission on tenders and do their work more efficiently. The officials posted in election commission, I was told are, political string pullers for the posting as this is a cushy job. Any feedback please.? Regards, Rajen. From jeebesh at sarai.net Thu Apr 23 18:18:14 2009 From: jeebesh at sarai.net (Jeebesh) Date: Thu, 23 Apr 2009 18:18:14 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] from Illina Sen : about Binayak Sen Message-ID: <1B435439-37AB-4158-96D2-7B0056A38341@sarai.net> --- On Thu, 23/4/09, Rajashri Dasgupta wrote: From: Rajashri Dasgupta Subject: from Illina Sen Date: Thursday, 23 April, 2009, 9:58 AM Dear friends, I am writing to share some extremely distressing information that has just now come to light. We now have clear proof that the police in Chhattisgarh are actively interfering with Binayak’s need for health care. I will just go over the facts with you. Binayak, hypertensive for many years, was diagnosed on 2003 with angina upon stress after he underwent cardiac assessment tests with Dr Ashish Malhotra, Raipur’s only doctor with a DM in cardiology, who practices in a private facility. The drug regime that he was on in 2007 and later was what was suggested by this doctor. He began to feel chest pain upon exercise, tingling in the left arm etc sometime in Decembr 0f 2008 and in January February of this year, when in prison. He informed the prison authorities of this, and when nothing concrete was done about it (the jail hospital any way has no facilities), he informed the court about this. An application was filed I court on his behalf on 17.2.09, requesting that he be allowed to go for treatment to a properly equipped hospital of his choice, preferably CMC Vellore, citing section 39A of the Prisoners Act of 1894, according to which the jail Superintendent is empowered to send him for treatment to a facility of his choice, subject to the the prisoner or his family executing a bond and abiding by such conditions as the Superintendent may prescribe. On 20.2.09 the judge (11th additional district and sessions judge BS Saluja who is trying the case) ordered the jail authorities to get the opinion of a medical board re Dr Sen’s cardiac condition so that an appropriate decision on his application could be taken. Binayak was taken to the Raipur district hospital at some time between 20.2 09 and 17.3.09, where the doctors who saw him suggested that he needed an ecg and eckocardiograph. On 17.3.09 Binayak complained to the court that no action had been taken on his request for treatment, and was quite emotional when he said that it did not seem to matter to the court whether he lived or died. The judge who had built up this impressive correspondence was equally upset, and I personally met him after the evidence was over and the accused taken back to jail to convince him that a medical situation demanded something more than just creating records. The judge seemed mollified and on the 18th of March, asked Binayak in court which doctor he wished to see in Raipur who could determine whether or not he needed an onward referral to Vellore , and upon Binayak naming Dr Ashish Malhotra, passed an order asking the jail to have Binayak shown to Dr Malhotra in order to obtain a clear opinion about whether such referral for further investigation was needed. Binayak was shown to Dr Ashish Malhotra on March 25. On the basis of the court order of 18.3, the jail superintendent requested the police for providing security guards to take Binayak to see the doctor. Accordingly, an impressive busload of armed police took Binayak to see Dr Malhotra around 10 am, and I got a call from Dr M around 10.30 asking me to go there along with the old records. I proceeded to do this, and thus was present for most of the consultation. On the basis of the letter from the jail superintendent asking for a clear opinion on whether onward referral to CMC Vellore was needed, an ECG, Echocardiograph and treadmill test, he concluded that Binayak had Coronary Artery Disease (CAD), and referred him to VMC Vellore for Angiography for further ssessment, to be followed by Angioplaasty/ Coronary Artery Bypass Surgery (CABS). I kept a photocopy of the prescription for my own records, since I was asked to pay for the procedure. I went to see Binayak in prison on the 26th, and to discuss what the modalities of travel to south India would be. I was shocked when the Jail Superintendent said categorically that Binayak would not be investigated/treated in Vellore but in Raipur. Sensing that something was amiss, I put in an application under the RTI act asking to see all the correspondence between the jail and the doctors regarding Binayak’s treatment. It is this last lot of documents that has just come into my hands. To conclude the treatment story before I come to this, the jail tried on the 31st of March, to take him to Escorts hospital in Raipur , and according to what we had discussed on my last jail visit, Binayak refused in writing to go there, saying that he did not wish to be treated in any facility in Chhattisgarh as directed by the jail superintendent , as he feared that his life might be in danger. This reply of his with a covering note that Binayak was refusing treatment was presented to the court on the 31st itself, seeking further directions. The court referred this to the public prosecutor asking him to file a reply within seven days. To the best of my knowledge, no such reply has been filed so far. Binayak has started on the new medication prescribed by Dr Malhotra (Atorva Statin) and reports some symptomatic relief. To come now to the results of the RTI, I have now received Dr Malhotra’s original referral letter of the 25th, but also a second letter addresses to the Jail Superintendent, quoting a query from him and dated 26th March, in which he gives his opinion that the facilities for angiography are available in Chhattisgarh in Escorts, Apollo, Bhilai Main hospital, Ramkrishna hospital and two other places. He also writes that he referred Dr Sen to Vellore because the latter asked him for it. The problems with this are as follows: - Why was this second query sent from the jail to Dr Malhotra ? If the jail superintendent sent such a letter, who was breathing down his neck to do so? - This clearly constitutes total disregard for the court. The mandate to Dr M as specified by the court was to give a clear opinion about whether referral to Vellore was needed or not. The court did not ask Dr M about the length and breadth of medical facilities in Chhattisgarh. - Dr M was obviously under pressure when he said that he had referred Binayak to Vellore because the latter asked him to do so. In any case, what conversation he may or may not have had with his patient is supposed to be privileged information. - If a doctor not in the public sector payroll in anyway can be intimidated to this extent, what is one to say of doctors in Escorts , Apollo etc which are private medical franchises set up in the medical college (great examples of public private partnership, in which all human resources are public, the brand name and the option of onward referral are private)? - Under these circumstances, Binayak is absolutely right that his life may be in danger in any facility controlled by the state in Chhattisgarh. In fact I am now worried that as Plan A of the police / prosecution (discredit Binayak and convict him in the legal case ) shows signs of coming apart, they are now trying to resort to Plan B ( bump him off while in hospital in Chhattisgarh by just asking someone to, for eg, inject air into an IV drip). I would like to appeal to all friends to ensure Binayak’s physical safety, publicize this matter, write about it, perhaps appeal to higher courts/political leaders ? It is urgent. I want to end by saying that what we are asking for, treatment at a hospital of choice, is not unknown in Indian judicial history. In fact even from Raipur Central Jail, the Shivsena leader Dhananjay Singh Parihar, in jail on a charge of murder, was sent at state expense to KEM hospital Mumbai, Shankar Netralaya, Chennai and three other hospitals for an assortment of ailments in 2003 . The police would like to portray Binayak as the biggest internal security threat they perceive. Are we going to let them get away with this ? Ilina From indersalim at gmail.com Thu Apr 23 18:59:29 2009 From: indersalim at gmail.com (Inder Salim) Date: Thu, 23 Apr 2009 18:59:29 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Left in dark times - Bernard Henri Levy In-Reply-To: References: <783075.26656.qm@web53607.mail.re2.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <47e122a70904230629p2c962656w8e59b1d4ab6bb5de@mail.gmail.com> i found a very profound line in the interview by Bernard Levi " Competition of victims relies on the idea that what is scarce is not a scarcity of resources but is the scarcity of ability of mankind to cry, to sympathize, and to have sorrow" may be that is thought for today, which we all, and particularly those who take positions on respective victimhood so easily... On Thu, Apr 23, 2009 at 11:43 AM, Jeebesh wrote: > > dear Rahul, > > Do you know about other works of Bernard Levi and his commentary on > life in general?. Check his writing of the Suburban Paris unrest. You > will get a sense of his thinking. It will help your analysis and his > critiques better. > > warmly > jeebesh > > On 22-Apr-09, at 7:00 PM, Rahul Asthana wrote: > > > > > Dear all, > > "Left in dark times" is the recent book by Bernard Henri Levy in > > which he makes a passionate criticism of the Left.Here is an > > interview where he talks about the book. > > http://www.guernicamag.com/interviews/800/an_interview_with_bernardhenri_1/ > > And this is the wiki entry about the book > > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Left_in_Dark_Times:_A_Stand_Against_the_New_Barbarism > > > > Regards > > Rahul > > > > > > > > _________________________________________ > > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > > Critiques & Collaborations > > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > > subscribe in the subject header. > > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> > > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with subscribe in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> -- http://indersalim.livejournal.com From kshmendra2005 at yahoo.com Thu Apr 23 19:56:34 2009 From: kshmendra2005 at yahoo.com (Kshmendra Kaul) Date: Thu, 23 Apr 2009 07:26:34 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Reader-list] Fwd: My Brief Review of Women and Islam on the Shelfari Page In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <443079.12266.qm@web57203.mail.re3.yahoo.com> Dear Javed   SLAVERY   Venugopalan stated that "Islam would not sanction the practice of slavery among the believers"   I countered that with "Slavery is institutionalised in Islam through the Quran". You too do not seem to disagree with that.   Where the movement to abolish slavery started is hardly relevant and your claim is not necessarily correct. What is relevant is 'who actually abolished it'.   The weblink for the Book you provided does not allow a read of all pages of the book. But here are a few interesting extracts:   - Participants in such controversies rarely heed Jacques Jomier's wise words that no religion is in the position to cast the first stone in the matter of slavery   - Abdullahi al-Naim ...... concluded "slavery is lawful under sharia to the present day"   That is how it is. No one can change that since that would mean abrogating passages from the Quran.      HADEETH   Islam would have had, if it had so been followed, the strength of there being a single text, the Quran. The deep sectarian divides amongst Muslims come from the Hadeeth and Rivayaat taking forward the history of divides that started almost immediately after the death of Mohammed.   Although, between sects there is quibbling over interpretations of some text even from the Quran but it is the non-acceptace of any set of Hadeeth and Rivaayat universally by all Muslims that has deepened the divides.   Forget about what Islamic scholars say. If they knew what they were talking about, Islam as represented by those who claim to be Muslims would not be in the mess that it is.   The sects cannot even agree on what a single version of the Last Sermon of Mohammed not to speak of the thousands of Hadeeth and Rivaayat.   The Word is God. Quran is the Word. There cannot be any intercession in the relationship between the Creator and Creations. If it is a question of understanding the Quran, then the Quran itself tells Mohammed that (even) he will not understand some parts of the Quran.    Even the Sunnis for example might have started by claiming the trueness of the Sahi Sitta (6 Hadeeth books), they are to this day struggling to agree whether all of their contents are Sahi (true). The Shias of course hold much of the contents in those books in contempt and yet funnily enough at times use some content from those very books to attack the Sunnis and especially Aisha and the first three Khalifas. Quite a mess.   The write-up on Al Albani's work forwarded by you only confirms this. One more attempt to sort out the Hadeeth and Rivayaat. How can they serve as a useful tool to understand the Quran if they continue to be controversial?   Interestingly the write-up makes reference to Al Albani's "The Veil of the Muslim Woman" where apparently he has argued that Muslim women should not cover their faces. But thats another topic.    What the Muslims need to do is to go back to the basics. Study the Quran and the Quran alone and understand it along the lines I had written about earlier:   - Self-declaratory by Allah. A generalised commentary on  Creator and the Creations and expectations of Creator from Creations - Advisories for Mohammed alone - Advisories for everyone - Advisories for specific times - Advisories valid in perpetuity for ever after - Commentaries of the times before Mohammed that may or may not be advisories  in perpetutity for ever after   Once they agree on a common understanding they will find much in the Hadeeth and Rivaayat from the different sects that need to be discarded. They will find quite unimportant some of the difference they quarrel over. They will find a new understanding of what a true Muslim is that will not make them suspect in the eyes of everyone else.    Kshmendra   --- On Thu, 4/23/09, M Javed wrote: From: M Javed Subject: Re: [Reader-list] Fwd: My Brief Review of Women and Islam on the Shelfari Page To: kshmendra2005 at yahoo.com Cc: "sarai-list" , "Venugopalan K M" Date: Thursday, April 23, 2009, 2:42 PM Dear Kshmendra There is no medieval culture or civilization which didn't have slavery in it. In some places it is still existing in the form of castism. While it is true that the Quran or Prophet Muhammad did not abolish slavery, the movements to end it truly started in the Muslim world, much before it was abolished even in Europe. It would be interesting to take a look at a book which is even available online: Islam and the abolition of slavery By W. G. Clarence-Smith http://books.google.co.in/books?id=nQbylEdqJKkC&dq=islam+against+slavery&printsec=frontcover&source=in&hl=en&ei=oC3wSaKiM4zW6gO_4qCfDw&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=11#PPP1,M1 Please explain why do you say that most people go wrong when they try to read Quran with hadith. Almost all Islamic scholars are of the opinion that the cryptic nature of the Quran can be best understood by interpreting it through hadiths - the two cannot be understood without each other. I would like you to read on essay about some new work on the interpretation of hadith: http://www.isim.nl/files/review_21/review_21-6.pdf Javed On Wed, Apr 22, 2009 at 7:43 PM, Kshmendra Kaul wrote: > Dear Venugopalan > > Just a few comments on what you have written: > > - Mohammed's son-in-law was Ali (not Umer) > > - Slavery is institutionalised in Islam through the Quran. It comments on it and gives no injunction against it as being unacceptable > > - There is no advisory favouring the HIJAB in the Quran other than ONLY for the wives of Mohammed (this is open to interpretations). > > - Certain controversial advisories in the Quran and specifically the Law for Evidences, makes suspect a claim of 'equality between the sexes' as may be understood in secular terms > > - You err in referring to the 'monotheistic universal faith is absolutely egalitarian' of Islam as being a VISION of Mohammed. It is the VISION of ALLAH and not Mohammed. > > While on this subject; Most commentators on Islam including Muslims do wrong when they try to read the Quran in combination with the Hadith. The Hadith are sectarian and indeed political and may not always be in-line with the Quranic word, which makes some doubly suspect. > > Even in the reading of the Quran (and this is solely my own understanding), it would help both Muslims and Non-Muslims to understand things better if they were to identify the following aspects: > > - Self-declatory by Allah. A generalised commentary on  Creator and the Creations and expectations of Creator from Creations > > - Advisories for Mohammed alone > > - Advisories for everyone > > - Advisories for specific times > > - Advisories valid in perpetuity for ever after > > - Commentaries of the times before Mohammed that may or may not be advisories  in perpetutity for ever after > > Kshmendra > > > --- On Wed, 4/22/09, Venugopalan K M wrote: > > From: Venugopalan K M > Subject: Fwd: My Brief Review of Women and Islam on the Shelfari Page > To: "sarai-list" > Date: Wednesday, April 22, 2009, 6:25 PM > > > > > > ---------- Forwarded message ---------- > From: Venugopalan K M > Date: Wed, Apr 22, 2009 at 6:23 PM > Subject: Fwd: My Brief Review of Women and Islam on the Shelfari Page > To: > > > > Respected friends, > Kindly send in your comments; I expect to be benefited by them as I shortly intend to publish a translation of the work  in Malayalam, which is my mother tongue. > Warmly, > Venu. > > > > > > > > Women and Islam: An Historical and Theological Enquiry > by Fatima Mernissi > In this book the author, who is both a feminist and a Muslim, aims to shed light on the status of women in Islam by examining and reassessing the literary sources as far back as 7th century Islam. She portrays how, far from being the oppressor of women that his detractors have claimed, the Prophet upheld the equality of all true believers. Here is a bold reconciliation of feminism with the... (more) > >      kmvenuannur >          o Rated 0 stars > >      “ Fatima Mernissi has done an epoch making and scholarly exploration of the Suras (original Quranic verses) and the Hadits (accounts by the Companions of the Prophet about how the Messenger of God responded to challenging moments in the lives of first generation of believers,methodically cross checked and compiled by religious scholars who lived in the first two centuries of Islam) along with the interpretations since then. The major findings of the author are the following: >      1. The Prophet undoubtedly wanted no separation between the public and private realms of life. >      2. His vision of a monotheistic universal faith is absolutely egalitarian and that is a world in which women could shoulder equal roles with that of men in political, social and economic realms with a view to creating a new world that would assure peace and happiness to all humans. >      3. While Islam would not sanction the practice of slavery among the believers, continuation of that institution for several centuries was possible in the actual islamic regimes thanks to the denial of option (to the new religion )to the prisoners of wars, who were mostly women from the pre Islamic kingdoms. However,their chidren were considered free persons. These women were treated as slaves and they were traded off or exchanged as booty. >      4.The descend of Hijab,the physical as well as the symbolicl separation of private and public spaces happened as a response to the grave crisis in the Medina priod,which corresponded to the later phase in the life of the Prophet. Years between Hejra 3-8 (AD 625- 628) were crtical periods of crisis characterized by severe losses and uncertainity both on the side of military expetitions and on the socio-economic life of people. >      5. Evenwhile the Prophet together with his wives and many of the articulate women in the Medinese city continued adherence to the principle of equality( between men and women) , they encountered lot of social abuses on account of this. >      6. The prominent of the male Companions led by his son in law Umer continuously pressed on the Prophet to impose restrictions for women. They persisted on the view that solution to the above crisis of credibility and above all the insecurity, was in the separation of the Muslim space into two- public space was to be preserved as exclusive domain of men, and the private space as the secluded space for women- both these spaces to be separated by a Hijab- >      7. The Hijab ultimately descended from the Heaven as revealed to the Prophet during the night of a wedding dinner in connection with his first night with Zainab in the year Hejra 5 (AD 627). The immediate provocation of the incident, according to a Hadith, was boorish behaviour of three men who continued to linger there chatting, sitting in the room without leaving the place even after the dinner; Prophet was eagerly waiting to be left alone in the company of Zainab,his new bride sitting in the same room. ” >      kmvenuannur wrote this review 1 minute ago. ( reply | edit |permalink ) > > > > > > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with subscribe in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: From rahul_capri at yahoo.com Thu Apr 23 19:56:56 2009 From: rahul_capri at yahoo.com (Rahul Asthana) Date: Thu, 23 Apr 2009 07:26:56 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Reader-list] Left in dark times - Bernard Henri Levy In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <917132.81701.qm@web53604.mail.re2.yahoo.com> Dear Jeebesh, This is what I found after some searching. http://kennethandersonlawofwar.blogspot.com/2005/11/bernard-henri-levy-on-french-riots.html I do not see any firm ideological position or deep insight in this to form an opinion one way or the other.Do you have something that you can share? Thanks Rahul --- On Thu, 4/23/09, Jeebesh wrote: > From: Jeebesh > Subject: Re: [Reader-list] Left in dark times - Bernard Henri Levy > To: "Sarai Reader-list" > Date: Thursday, April 23, 2009, 11:43 AM > dear Rahul, > > Do you know about other works of Bernard Levi and his > commentary on > life in general?. Check his writing of the Suburban Paris > unrest. You > will get a sense of his thinking. It will help your > analysis and his > critiques better. > > warmly > jeebesh > > On 22-Apr-09, at 7:00 PM, Rahul Asthana wrote: > > > > > Dear all, > > "Left in dark times" is the recent book by > Bernard Henri Levy in > > which he makes a passionate criticism of the Left.Here > is an > > interview where he talks about the book. > > > http://www.guernicamag.com/interviews/800/an_interview_with_bernardhenri_1/ > > And this is the wiki entry about the book > > > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Left_in_Dark_Times:_A_Stand_Against_the_New_Barbarism > > > > Regards > > Rahul > > > > > > > > _________________________________________ > > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the > city. > > Critiques & Collaborations > > To subscribe: send an email to > reader-list-request at sarai.net with > > subscribe in the subject header. > > To unsubscribe: > https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > > List archive: > <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> > > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to > reader-list-request at sarai.net with subscribe in the subject > header. > To unsubscribe: > https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: > <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> From kshmendra2005 at yahoo.com Thu Apr 23 19:59:22 2009 From: kshmendra2005 at yahoo.com (Kshmendra Kaul) Date: Thu, 23 Apr 2009 07:29:22 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Reader-list] Fwd: The Girl in the Window In-Reply-To: <341380d00904230442j778068b4nb6e0eaa786bb30ff@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <835027.86361.qm@web57203.mail.re3.yahoo.com> Anupam   Thank you for sharing this   K --- On Thu, 4/23/09, anupam chakravartty wrote: From: anupam chakravartty Subject: [Reader-list] Fwd: The Girl in the Window To: "sarai list" Date: Thursday, April 23, 2009, 5:12 PM *Dear reader, first go through the slide show, then read the article http://zreportage.com/COCOON/COCOON_Slideshow.shtml The Girl in the Window* *Text by: © Lane DeGregory/St. Petersburg Times/ZUMA* *On Apr. 20, 2009 the 2009 Pulitzer Prize for Feature Writing was awarded to Lane DeGregory of the *St. Petersburg Times*. DeGregory's amazing words brought to life the moving, richly detailed story of a neglected little girl, who was found in a roach-infested room, unable to talk or feed herself. The girl, Dani Lierow, has since been adopted by a new family committed to her nurturing. "The Girl in the Window: The Dani Lierow Story, Coming Out of the Cocoon" is a beautiful tender picture essay by photographer Melissa Lyttle, that accompanied DeGregory's text. This story was the zReportage.com "Story of the Week," the week of August 12, 2008* PLANT CITY — The family had lived in the rundown rental house for almost three years when someone first saw a child's face in the window. A little girl, pale, with dark eyes, lifted a dirty blanket above the broken glass and peered out, one neighbor remembered. Everyone knew a woman lived in the house with her boyfriend and two adult sons. But they had never seen a child there, had never noticed anyone playing in the overgrown yard. The girl looked young, 5 or 6, and thin. Too thin. Her cheeks seemed sunken; her eyes were lost. The child stared into the square of sunlight, then slipped away. Months went by. The face never reappeared. Just before noon on July 13, 2005, a Plant City police car pulled up outside that shattered window. Two officers went into the house — and one stumbled back out. Clutching his stomach, the rookie retched in the weeds. Plant City Detective Mark Holste had been on the force for 18 years when he and his young partner were sent to the house on Old Sydney Road to stand by during a child abuse investigation. Someone had finally called the police. They found a car parked outside. The driver's door was open and a woman was slumped over in her seat, sobbing. She was an investigator for the Florida Department of Children and Families. "Unbelievable," she told Holste. "The worst I've ever seen." The police officers walked through the front door, into a cramped living room. "I've been in rooms with bodies rotting there for a week and it never stunk that bad," Holste said later. "There's just no way to describe it. Urine and feces — dog, cat and human excrement — smeared on the walls, mashed into the carpet. Everything dank and rotting." Tattered curtains, yellow with cigarette smoke, dangling from bent metal rods. Cardboard and old comforters stuffed into broken, grimy windows. Trash blanketing the stained couch, the sticky counters. The floor, walls, even the ceiling seemed to sway beneath legions of scuttling roaches. "It sounded like you were walking on eggshells. You couldn't take a step without crunching German cockroaches," the detective said. "They were in the lights, in the furniture. Even inside the freezer. The freezer!" While Holste looked around, a stout woman in a faded housecoat demanded to know what was going on. Yes, she lived there. Yes, those were her two sons in the living room. Her daughter? Well, yes, she had a daughter . . . The detective strode past her, down a narrow hall. He turned the handle on a door, which opened into a space the size of a walk-in closet. He squinted in the dark. At his feet, something stirred. First he saw the girl's eyes: dark and wide, unfocused, unblinking. She wasn't looking at him so much as through him. She lay on a torn, moldy mattress on the floor. She was curled on her side, long legs tucked into her emaciated chest. Her ribs and collarbone jutted out; one skinny arm was slung over her face; her black hair was matted, crawling with lice. Insect bites, rashes and sores pocked her skin. Though she looked old enough to be in school, she was naked — except for a swollen diaper. "The pile of dirty diapers in that room must have been 4 feet high," the detective said. "The glass in the window had been broken, and that child was just lying there, surrounded by her own excrement and bugs." When he bent to lift her, she yelped like a lamb. "It felt like I was picking up a baby," Holste said. "I put her over my shoulder, and that diaper started leaking down my leg." The girl didn't struggle. Holste asked, What's your name, honey? The girl didn't seem to hear. He searched for clothes to dress her, but found only balled-up laundry, flecked with feces. He looked for a toy, a doll, a stuffed animal. "But the only ones I found were covered in maggots and roaches." Choking back rage, he approached the mother. How could you let this happen? "The mother's statement was: 'I'm doing the best I can,' " the detective said. "I told her, 'The best you can sucks!' " He wanted to arrest the woman right then, but when he called his boss he was told to let DCF do its own investigation. So the detective carried the girl down the dim hall, past her brothers, past her mother in the doorway, who was shrieking, "Don't take my baby!" He buckled the child into the state investigator's car. The investigator agreed: They had to get the girl out of there. "Radio ahead to Tampa General," the detective remembers telling his partner. "If this child doesn't get to a hospital, she's not going to make it." Her name, her mother had said, was Danielle. She was almost 7 years old. She weighed 46 pounds. She was malnourished and anemic. In the pediatric intensive care unit they tried to feed the girl, but she couldn't chew or swallow solid food. So they put her on an IV and let her drink from a bottle. Aides bathed her, scrubbed the sores on her face, trimmed her torn fingernails. They had to cut her tangled hair before they could comb out the lice. Her caseworker determined that she had never been to school, never seen a doctor. She didn't know how to hold a doll, didn't understand peek-a-boo. "Due to the severe neglect," a doctor would write, "the child will be disabled for the rest of her life." Hunched in an oversized crib, Danielle curled in on herself like a potato bug, then writhed angrily, kicking and thrashing. To calm herself, she batted at her toes and sucked her fists. "Like an infant," one doctor wrote. She wouldn't make eye contact. She didn't react to heat or cold — or pain. The insertion of an IV needle elicited no reaction. She never cried. With a nurse holding her hands, she could stand and walk sideways on her toes, like a crab. She couldn't talk, didn't know how to nod yes or no. Once in a while she grunted. She couldn't tell anyone what had happened, what was wrong, what hurt. Dr. Kathleen Armstrong, director of pediatric psychology at the University of South Florida medical school, was the first psychologist to examine Danielle. She said medical tests, brain scans, and vision, hearing and genetics checks found nothing wrong with the child. She wasn't deaf, wasn't autistic, had no physical ailments such as cerebral palsy or muscular dystrophy. The doctors and social workers had no way of knowing all that had happened to Danielle. But the scene at the house, along with Danielle's almost comatose condition, led them to believe she had never been cared for beyond basic sustenance. Hard as it was to imagine, they doubted she had ever been taken out in the sun, sung to sleep, even hugged or held. She was fragile and beautiful, but whatever makes a person human seemed somehow missing. Armstrong called the girl's condition "environmental autism." Danielle had been deprived of interaction for so long, the doctor believed, that she had withdrawn into herself. The most extraordinary thing about Danielle, Armstrong said, was her lack of engagement with people, with anything. "There was no light in her eye, no response or recognition. . . . We saw a little girl who didn't even respond to hugs or affection. Even a child with the most severe autism responds to those." Danielle's was "the most outrageous case of neglect I've ever seen." The authorities had discovered the rarest and most pitiable of creatures: a feral child. The term is not a diagnosis. It comes from historic accounts — some fictional, some true — of children raised by animals and therefore not exposed to human nurturing. Wolf boys and bird girls, Tarzan, Mowgli from The Jungle Book. It's said that during the Holy Roman Empire, Frederick II gave a group of infants to some nuns. He told them to take care of the children but never to speak to them. He believed the babies would eventually reveal the true language of God. Instead, they died from the lack of interaction. Then there was the Wild Boy of Aveyron, who wandered out of the woods near Paris in 1800, naked and grunting. He was about 12. A teacher took him in and named him Victor. He tried to socialize the child, teach him to talk. But after several years, he gave up on the teen and asked the housekeeper to care for him. "In the first five years of life, 85 percent of the brain is developed," said Armstrong, the psychologist who examined Danielle. "Those early relationships, more than anything else, help wire the brain and provide children with the experience to trust, to develop language, to communicate. They need that system to relate to the world." The importance of nurturing has been shown again and again. In the 1960s, psychologist Harry Harlow put groups of infant rhesus monkeys in a room with two artificial mothers. One, made of wire, dispensed food. The other, of terrycloth, extended cradled arms. Though they were starving, the baby monkeys all climbed into the warm cloth arms. "Primates need comfort even more than they need food," Armstrong said. The most recent case of a feral child was in 1970, in California. A girl whom therapists came to call Genie had been strapped to a potty chair until she was 13. Like the Wild Boy, Genie was studied in hospitals and laboratories. She was in her 20s when doctors realized she'd never talk, never be able to take care of herself. She ended up in foster care, closed off from the world, utterly dependent. Danielle's case — which unfolded out of the public spotlight, without a word in the media — raised disturbing questions for everyone trying to help her. How could this have happened? What kind of mother would sit by year after year while her daughter languished in her own filth, starving and crawling with bugs? And why hadn't someone intervened? The neighbors, the authorities — where had they been? "It's mind-boggling that in the 21st century we can still have a child who's just left in a room like a gerbil," said Tracy Sheehan, Danielle's guardian in the legal system and now a circuit court judge. "No food. No one talking to her or reading her a story. She can't even use her hands. How could this child be so invisible?" But the most pressing questions were about her future. When Danielle was discovered, she was younger by six years than the Wild Boy or Genie, giving hope that she might yet be teachable. Many of her caregivers had high hopes they could make her whole. Danielle had probably missed the chance to learn speech, but maybe she could come to understand language, to communicate in other ways. Still, doctors had only the most modest ambitions for her. "My hope was that she would be able to sleep through the night, to be out of diapers and to feed herself," Armstrong said. If things went really well, she said, Danielle would end up "in a nice nursing home." Danielle spent six weeks at Tampa General before she was well enough to leave. But where could she go? Not home; Judge Martha Cook, who oversaw her dependency hearing, ordered that Danielle be placed in foster care and that her mother not be allowed to call or visit her. The mother was being investigated on criminal child abuse charges. "That child, she broke my heart," Cook said later. "We were so distraught over her condition, we agonized over what to do." Eventually, Danielle was placed in a group home in Land O'Lakes. She had a bed with sheets and a pillow, clothes and food, and someone at least to change her diapers. In October 2005, a couple of weeks after she turned 7, Danielle started school for the first time. She was placed in a special ed class at Sanders Elementary. "Her behavior was different than any child I'd ever seen," said Kevin O'Keefe, Danielle's first teacher. "If you put food anywhere near her, she'd grab it" and mouth it like a baby, he said. "She had a lot of episodes of great agitation, yelling, flailing her arms, rolling into a fetal position. She'd curl up in a closet, just to be away from everyone. She didn't know how to climb a slide or swing on a swing. She didn't want to be touched." It took her a year just to become consolable, he said. By Thanksgiving 2006 — a year and a half after Danielle had gone into foster care — her caseworker was thinking about finding her a permanent home. A nursing home, group home or medical foster care facility could take care of Danielle. But she needed more. "In my entire career with the child welfare system, I don't ever remember a child like Danielle," said Luanne Panacek, executive director of the Children's Board of Hillsborough County. "It makes you think about what does quality of life mean? What's the best we can hope for her? After all she's been through, is it just being safe?" That fall, Panacek decided to include Danielle in the Heart Gallery — a set of portraits depicting children available for adoption. The Children's Board displays the pictures in malls and on the Internet in hopes that people will fall in love with the children and take them home. In Hillsborough alone, 600 kids are available for adoption. Who, Panacek wondered, would choose an 8-year-old who was still in diapers, who didn't know her own name and might not ever speak or let you hug her? The day Danielle was supposed to have her picture taken for the Heart Gallery, she showed up with red Kool-Aid dribbled down her new blouse. She hadn't yet mastered a sippy cup. Garet White, Danielle's care manager, scrubbed the girl's shirt and washed her face. She brushed Danielle's bangs from her forehead and begged the photographer to please be patient. White stepped behind the photographer and waved at Danielle. She put her thumbs in her ears and wiggled her hands, stuck out her tongue and rolled her eyes. Danielle didn't even blink. White was about to give up when she heard a sound she'd never heard from Danielle. The child's eyes were still dull, apparently unseeing. But her mouth was open. She looked like she was trying to laugh. Click. Teenagers tore through the arcade, firing fake rifles. Sweaty boys hunched over air hockey tables. Girls squealed as they stomped on blinking squares. Bernie and Diane Lierow remember standing silently inside GameWorks in Tampa, overwhelmed. They had driven three hours from their home in Fort Myers Beach, hoping to meet a child at this foster care event. But all these kids seemed too wild, too big and, well, too worldly. Bernie, 48, remodels houses. Diane, 45, cleans homes. They have four grown sons from previous marriages and one together. Diane couldn't have any more children, and Bernie had always wanted a daughter. So last year, when William was 9, they decided to adopt. Their new daughter would have to be younger than William, they told foster workers. But she would have to be potty-trained and able to feed herself. They didn't want a child who might hurt their son, or who was profoundly disabled and unable to take care of herself. On the Internet they had found a girl in Texas, another in Georgia. Each time they were told, "That one is dangerous. She can't be with other children." That's why they were at this Heart Gallery gathering, scanning the crowd. Bernie's head ached from all the jangling games; Diane's stomach hurt, seeing all the abandoned kids; and William was tired of shooting aliens. Diane stepped out of the chaos, into an alcove beneath the stairs. That was when she saw it. A little girl's face on a flier, pale with sunken cheeks and dark hair chopped too short. Her brown eyes seemed to be searching for something. Diane called Bernie over. He saw the same thing she did. "She just looked like she needed us." Bernie and Diane are humble, unpretentious people who would rather picnic on their deck than eat out. They go to work, go to church, visit with their neighbors, walk their dogs. They don't travel or pursue exotic interests; a vacation for them is hanging out at home with the family. Shy and soft-spoken, they're both slow to anger and, they say, seldom argue. They had everything they ever wanted, they said. Except for a daughter. But the more they asked about Danielle, the more they didn't want to know. She was 8, but functioned as a 2-year-old. She had been left alone in a dank room, ignored for most of her life. No, she wasn't there at the video arcade; she was in a group home. She wore diapers, couldn't feed herself, couldn't talk. After more than a year in school, she still wouldn't make eye contact or play with other kids. No one knew, really, what was wrong with her, or what she might be capable of. "She was everything we didn't want," Bernie said. But they couldn't forget those aching eyes. Everyone told them not to do it, neighbors, co-workers, friends. Everyone said they didn't know what they were getting into. So what if Danielle is not everything we hoped for? Bernie and Diane answered. You can't pre-order your own kids. You take what God gives you. They brought her home on Easter weekend 2007. It was supposed to be a rebirth, of sorts — a baptism into their family. "It was a disaster," Bernie said. They gave her a doll; she bit off its hands. They took her to the beach; she screamed and wouldn't put her feet in the sand. Back at her new home, she tore from room to room, her swim diaper spewing streams across the carpet. She couldn't peel the wrapper from a chocolate egg, so she ate the shiny paper too. She couldn't sit still to watch TV or look at a book. She couldn't hold a crayon. When they tried to brush her teeth or comb her hair, she kicked and thrashed. She wouldn't lie in a bed, wouldn't go to sleep, just rolled on her back, side to side, for hours. All night she kept popping up, creeping sideways on her toes into the kitchen. She would pull out the frozen food drawer and stand on the bags of vegetables so she could see into the refrigerator. "She wouldn't take anything," Bernie said. "I guess she wanted to make sure the food was still there." When Bernie tried to guide her back to bed, Danielle railed against him and bit her own hands. In time, Danielle's new family learned what worked and what didn't. Her foster family had been giving her anti-psychotic drugs to mitigate her temper tantrums and help her sleep. When Bernie and Diane weaned her off the medication, she stopped drooling and started holding up her head. She let Bernie brush her teeth. Bernie and Diane already thought of Danielle as their daughter, but legally she wasn't. Danielle's birth mother did not want to give her up even though she had been charged with child abuse and faced 20 years in prison. So prosecutors offered a deal: If she waived her parental rights, they wouldn't send her to jail. She took the plea. She was given two years of house arrest, plus probation. And 100 hours of community service. In October 2007, Bernie and Diane officially adopted Danielle. They call her Dani. "Okay, let's put your shoes on. Do you need to go potty again?" Diane asks. It's an overcast Monday morning in spring 2008 and Dani is late for school. Again. She keeps flitting around the living room, ducking behind chairs and sofas, pulling at her shorts. After a year with her new family, Dani scarcely resembles the girl in the Heart Gallery photo. She has grown a foot and her weight has doubled. All those years she was kept inside, her hair was as dark as the dirty room she lived in. But since she started going to the beach and swimming in their backyard pool, Dani's shoulder-length hair has turned a golden blond. She still shrieks when anyone tries to brush it. The changes in her behavior are subtle, but Bernie and Diane see progress. They give an example: When Dani feels overwhelmed she retreats to her room, rolls onto her back, pulls one sock toward the end of her toes and bats it. For hours. Bernie and Diane tell her to stop. Now, when Dani hears them coming, she peels off her sock and throws it into the closet to hide it. She's learning right from wrong, they say. And she seems upset when she knows she has disappointed them. As if she cares how they feel. Bernie and Diane were told to put Dani in school with profoundly disabled children, but they insisted on different classes because they believe she can do more. They take her to occupational and physical therapy, to church and the mall and the grocery store. They have her in speech classes and horseback riding lessons. Once, when Dani was trying to climb onto her horse, the mother of a boy in the therapeutic class turned to Diane. "You're so lucky," Diane remembers the woman saying. "Lucky?" Diane asked. The woman nodded. "I know my son will never stand on his own, will never be able to climb onto a horse. You have no idea what your daughter might be able to do." Diane finds hope in that idea. She counts small steps to convince herself things are slowly improving. So what if Dani steals food off other people's trays at McDonald's? At least she can feed herself chicken nuggets now. So what if she already has been to the bathroom four times this morning? She's finally out of diapers. It took months, but they taught her to hold a stuffed teddy on the toilet so she wouldn't be scared to be alone in the bathroom. They bribed her with M&M's. "Dani, sit down and try to use the potty," Diane coaxes. "Pull down your shorts. That's a good girl." Every weekday, for half an hour, speech therapist Leslie Goldenberg tries to teach Dani to talk. She sits her in front of a mirror at a Bonita Springs elementary school and shows her how to purse her lips to make puffing sounds. "Puh-puh-puh," says the teacher. "Here, feel my mouth." She brings Dani's fingers to her lips, so she can feel the air. Dani nods. She knows how to nod now. Goldenberg puffs again. Leaning close to the mirror, Dani purses her lips, opens and closes them. No sound comes out. She can imitate the movement, but doesn't know she has to blow out air to make the noise. She bends closer, scowls at her reflection. Her lips open and close again, then she leaps up and runs across the room. She grabs a Koosh ball and bounces it rapidly. She's lost inside herself. Again. But in many ways, Dani already has surpassed the teacher's expectations, and not just in terms of speech. She seems to be learning to listen, and she understands simple commands. She pulls at her pants to show she needs to go to the bathroom, taps a juice box when she wants more. She can sit at a table for five-minute stretches, and she's starting to scoop applesauce with a spoon. She's down to just a few temper tantrums a month. She is learning to push buttons on a speaking board, to use symbols to show when she wants a book or when she's angry. She's learning it's okay to be angry: You can deal with those feelings without biting your own hands. "I'd like her to at least be able to master a sound board, so she can communicate her choices even if she never finds her voice," Goldenberg says. "I think she understands most of what we say. It's just that she doesn't always know how to — or want to — react." Dani's teacher and family have heard her say only a few words, and all of them seemed accidental. Once she blurted "baaa," startling Goldenberg to tears. It was the first letter sound she had ever made. She seems to talk most often when William is tickling her, as if something from her subconscious seeps out when she's too distracted to shut it off. Her brother has heard her say, "Stop!" and "No!" He thought he even heard her say his name. Having a brother just one year older is invaluable for Dani's development, her teacher says. She has someone to practice language with, someone who will listen. "Even deaf infants will coo," Goldenberg said. "But if no one responds, they stop." William says Dani frightened him at first. "She did weird things." But he always wanted someone to play with. He doesn't care that she can't ride bikes with him or play Monopoly. "I drive her around in my Jeep and she honks the horn," he says. "She's learning to match up cards and stuff." He couldn't believe she had never walked a dog or licked an ice cream cone. He taught her how to play peek-a-boo, helped her squish Play-Doh through her fingers. He showed her it was safe to walk on sand and fun to blow bubbles and okay to cry; when you hurt, someone comes. He taught her how to open a present. How to pick up tater tots and dunk them into a mountain of ketchup. William was used to living like an only child, but since Dani has moved in, she gets most of their parents' attention. "She needs them more than me," he says simply. He gave her his old toys, his "kid movies," his board books. He even moved out of his bedroom so she could sleep upstairs. His parents painted his old walls pink and filled the closet with cotton-candy dresses. They moved a daybed into the laundry room for William, squeezed it between the washing machine and Dani's rocking horse. Each night, the 10-year-old boy cuddles up with a walkie-talkie because "it's scary down here, all alone." After a few minutes, while his parents are trying to get Dani to bed, William always sneaks into the living room and folds himself into the love seat. He trades his walkie-talkie for a small stuffed Dalmatian and calls down the hall, "Good night, Mom and Dad. Good night, Dani." Some day, he's sure, she will answer. Even now, Dani won't sleep in a bed. Bernie bought her a new trundle so she can slide out the bottom bunk and be at floor level. Diane found pink Hello Kitty sheets and a stuffed glow worm so Dani will never again be alone in the dark. "You got your wormie? You ready to go to sleep?" Bernie asks, bending to pick up his daughter. She's turning slow circles beneath the window, holding her worm by his tail. Bernie lifts her to the glass and shows her the sun, slipping behind the neighbor's house. He hopes, one day, she might be able to call him "Daddy," to get married or at least live on her own. But if that doesn't happen, he says, "That's okay too. For me, it's all about getting the kisses and the hugs." For now, Bernie and Diane are content to give Dani what she never had before: comfort and stability, attention and affection. A trundle, a glow worm. Now Bernie tips Dani into bed, smooths her golden hair across the pillow. "Night-night," he says, kissing her forehead. "Good night, honey," Diane calls from the doorway. Bernie lowers the shade. As he walks past Dani, she reaches out and grabs his ankles. Part Three: The Mother She's out there somewhere, looming over Danielle's story like a ghost. To Bernie and Diane, Danielle's birth mother is a cipher, almost never spoken of. The less said, the better. As far as they are concerned Danielle was born the day they found her. And yet this unimaginable woman is out there somewhere, most likely still on probation, permanently unburdened of her daughter, and thinking — what? What can she possibly say? Nothing. Not a thing. But none of this makes any sense without her. Michelle Crockett lives in a mobile home in Plant City with her two 20-something sons, three cats and a closet full of kittens. The trailer is just down the road from the little house where she lived with Danielle. On a steamy afternoon a few weeks ago, Michelle opens the door wearing a long T-shirt. When she sees two strangers, she ducks inside and pulls on a housecoat. She's tall and stout, with broad shoulders and the sallow skin of a smoker. She looks tired, older than her 51 years. "My daughter?" she asks. "You want to talk about my daughter?" Her voice catches. Tears pool in her glasses. The inside of the trailer is modest but clean: dishes drying on the counter, silk flowers on the table. Sitting in her kitchen, chain-smoking 305s, she starts at the end: the day the detective took Danielle. "Part of me died that day," she says. Michelle says she was a student at the University of Tampa when she met a man named Bernie at a bar. It was 1976. He was a Vietnam vet, 10 years her senior. They got married and moved to Las Vegas, where he drove a taxi. Right away they had two sons, Bernard and Grant. The younger boy wasn't potty-trained until he was 4, didn't talk until he was 5. "He was sort of slow," Michelle says. In school, they put him in special ed. Her sons were teenagers when her husband got sick. Agent Orange, the doctors said. When he died in August 1997, Michelle filed for bankruptcy. Six months later, she met a man in a casino. He was in Vegas on business. She went back to his hotel room with him. "His name was Ron," she says. She shakes her head. "No, it was Bob. I think it was Bob." For hours Michelle Crockett spins out her story, tapping ashes into a plastic ashtray. Everything she says sounds like a plea, but for what? Understanding? Sympathy? She doesn't apologize. Far from it. She feels wronged. Danielle, she says, was born in a hospital in Las Vegas, a healthy baby who weighed 7 pounds, 6 ounces. Her Apgar score measuring her health was a 9, nearly perfect. "She screamed a lot," Michelle says. "I just thought she was spoiled." When Danielle was 18 months old, Michelle's mobile home burned down, so she loaded her two sons and baby daughter onto a Greyhound bus and headed to Florida, to bunk with a cousin. They lost their suitcases along the way, she says. The cousin couldn't take the kids. After a week, Michelle moved into a Brandon apartment with no furniture, no clothes, no dishes. She got hired as a cashier at Publix. But it was okay: "The boys were with her," she says. She says she has the paperwork to prove it. She goes to the boys' bathroom, returns with a box full of documents and hands it over. The earliest documents are from Feb. 11, 2002. That was when someone called the child abuse hotline on her. The caller reported that a child, about 3, was "left unattended for days with a retarded older brother, never seen wearing anything but a diaper." This is Michelle's proof that her sons were watching Danielle. The caller continued: "The home is filthy. There are clothes everywhere. There are feces on the child's seat and the counter is covered with trash." It's not clear what investigators found at the house, but they left Danielle with her mother that day. Nine months later, another call to authorities. A person who knew Michelle from the Moose Lodge said she was always there playing bingo with her new boyfriend, leaving her children alone overnight. "Not fit to be a mother," the caller said. The hotline operator took these notes: The 4-year-old girl "is still wearing a diaper and drinking from a baby bottle. On-going situation, worse since last August. Mom leaves Grant and Danielle at home for several days in a row while she goes to work and spends the night with a new paramour. Danielle . . . is never seen outside the home." Again the child abuse investigators went out. They offered Michelle free day care for Danielle. She refused. And they left Danielle there. Why? Didn't they worry about two separate calls to the hotline, months apart, citing the same concerns? "It's not automatic that because the home is dirty we'd remove the child," said Nick Cox, regional director of the Florida Department of Children and Families. "And what they found in 2002 was not like the scene they walked into in 2005." The aim, he said, is to keep the child with the parent, and try to help the parent get whatever services he or she might need. But Michelle refused help. And investigators might have felt they didn't have enough evidence to take Danielle, Cox said. "I'm concerned, though, that no effort was made to interview the child," he said. "If you have a 4-year-old who is unable to speak, that would raise a red flag to me. "I'm not going to tell you this was okay. I don't know how it could have happened." Michelle insists Danielle was fine. "I tried to potty-train her, she wouldn't train. I tried to get her into schools, no one would take her," she says in the kitchen of her trailer. The only thing she ever noticed was wrong, she says, "was that she didn't speak much. She talked in a soft tone. She'd say, ‘Let's go eat.' But no one could hear her except me." She says she took Danielle to the library and the park. "I took her out for pizza. Once." But she can't remember which library, which park or where they went for pizza. "She liked this song I'd sing her," Michelle says. "Miss Polly had a dolly, she was sick, sick, sick . . ." Michelle's older son, Bernard, told a judge that he once asked his mom why she never took Danielle to the doctor. Something's wrong with her, he remembered telling her. He said she answered, "If they see her, they might take her away." A few months after the second abuse call, Michelle and her kids moved in with her boyfriend in the rundown rental house in Plant City. The day the cops came, Michelle says, she didn't know what was wrong. The detective found Danielle in the back, sleeping. The only window in the small space was broken. Michelle had tacked a blanket across the shattered glass, but flies and beetles and roaches had crept in anyway. "My house was a mess," she says. "I'd been sick and it got away from me. But I never knew a dirty house was against the law." The cop walked past her, carrying Danielle. "He said she was starving. I told him me and my sisters were all skinny till we were 13. "I begged him, ‘Please, don't take my baby! Please!' " She says she put socks on her daughter before he took her to the car, but couldn't find any shoes. A judge ordered Michelle to have a psychological evaluation. That's among the documents, too. Danielle's IQ, the report says, is below 50, indicating "severe mental retardation." Michelle's is 77, "borderline range of intellectual ability." "She tended to blame her difficulties on circumstances while rationalizing her own actions," wrote psychologist Richard Enrico Spana. She "is more concerned with herself than most other adults, and this could lead her to neglect paying adequate attention to people around her." She wanted to fight for her daughter, she says, but didn't want to go to jail and didn't have enough money for a lawyer. "I tried to get people to help me," Michelle says. "They say I made her autistic. But how do you make a kid autistic? They say I didn't put clothes on her — but she just tore them off." After Danielle was taken away, Michelle says, she tripped over a box at Wal-Mart and got in a car accident and couldn't work anymore. In February, she went back to court and a judge waived her community service hours. She's on probation until 2012. She spends her days with her sons, doing crossword puzzles and watching movies. Sometimes they talk about Danielle. When Danielle was in the hospital, Michelle says, she and her sons sneaked in to see her. Michelle took a picture from the file: Danielle, drowning in a hospital gown, slumped in a bed that folded into a wheelchair. "That's the last picture I have of her," Michelle says. In her kitchen, she snubs out her cigarette. She crosses to the living room, where Danielle's image looks down from the wall. She reaches up and, with her finger, traces her daughter's face. "When I moved here," she says, "that was the first thing I hung." She says she misses Danielle. "Have you seen her?" Michelle asks. "Is she okay?" Is she okay? Danielle is better than anyone dared hope. She has learned to look at people and let herself be held. She can chew ham. She can swim. She's tall and blond and has a little belly. She knows her name is Dani. In her new room, she has a window she can look out of. When she wants to see outside, all she has to do is raise her arms and her dad is right behind her, waiting to pick her up. By Lane DeGregory, Times Staff --~--~---------~--~----~------------~-------~--~----~ You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "humanrights movement" group. To post to this group, send email to humanrights-movement at googlegroups.com To unsubscribe from this group, send email to humanrights-movement+unsubscribe at googlegroups.com For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/humanrights-movement?hl=en -~----------~----~----~----~------~----~------~--~--- _________________________________________ reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. Critiques & Collaborations To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with subscribe in the subject header. To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> From pawan.durani at gmail.com Thu Apr 23 20:00:46 2009 From: pawan.durani at gmail.com (Pawan Durani) Date: Thu, 23 Apr 2009 20:00:46 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Brahminical dominence ? In-Reply-To: <71249196-528B-4F3B-8A84-5BD1FC55248B@sarai.net> References: <61164a90904210401k462156f8u40f90cea6a76c155@mail.gmail.com> <1f9180970904210520i7b46f3der639cf53ef5821d0@mail.gmail.com> <61164a90904212310x745fa773k4094027432b2420c@mail.gmail.com> <1f9180970904220157m18b3e581q41c51526fa881c0c@mail.gmail.com> <71249196-528B-4F3B-8A84-5BD1FC55248B@sarai.net> Message-ID: <6b79f1a70904230730h5c6a8d6bia01f9f820a433b93@mail.gmail.com> Dear Shuddha, I am just curious . Would you dare to use the same language if we quote something from Holy Quran and refer Prophet Mohammad [ pbuh] . Lean to respect religion and faith. Pawan On Thu, Apr 23, 2009 at 4:33 AM, Shuddhabrata Sengupta wrote: > Is this character called Ram or Rama not the same arrogant king who > once killed a scholar called Shambuka > because he was found studying the scriptures. The crime being that > Shambuka was an untouchable and so could not touch the scriptures, > even with his mind. > > Would I want to live in a society where kings slaughter scholars for > the crime of their curiosity? No, I would not. I touch a lot of > stuff with my impure mind, and I want to live safe from stupid kings > who don't know better. I think we ought to be grateful that Ram Rajya > is as yet a distant dream of a lunatic fringe. Lets hope it stays > that way. > > best > > Shuddha > On 22-Apr-09, at 2:27 PM, Venugopalan K M wrote: > > >> "..."As to Rama Rajya, let it be remembered that Rama was kshatriya > > king who administered his subjects wth care and concern for public > > opinion. A doubt about his own wife as expressed by a subject made him > > take the harsh step to send his wife to the forests when she was > > pregnent, to the Ashram. Todays leaders do not care for the public > > opinion as much as they did , but generate public opinion thru media > > and other means for their agendas, is my perception".." > > > > But that is excatly what I would rather take objection to not just > > your concept of 'Rajya' but also its iconic hero, Ram. > > Please excuse me when I say that this vulgar expression of > > "prajahitham"(public opinion) against a poor woman is nothing > > different from its newer versions of "hithams" of Sri Ram Senes! > > > > While it is repugnant to humanity, seen even by the standards of > > ancient monarchy it is much more unacceptable to the standards of > > human rights of our age. It would be a grave instance of atrocity > > perpetrated against women with impunity by the kings in the name of > > 'public opinion'. What sort of king was he to grow suspicious of the > > chastity of his queen lived in forced exile , and yet to take recourse > > to 'public opinion' (most probably manufactured) to justify throwing > > her to fire? What bloody business this poor dhobi family had to > > suspect Sita as a bad woman? In my understanding, this is nothing but > > projection of source of one's own ill feeling to someone else, > > skulking away from taking up the moral responsibility. The kind of > > relationship the king had with the queen, perhaps might have gone to > > deep trouble even otherwise. > > > > Well, this tendency to dupe people by spreading cock and bull stories > > about dharma in an effort to justify the most grotesque violence > > against women and the lower caste people might be part of the essence > > of Ramarajya of the past as well as the present, and this is what many > > people call Brahmanism. Whatever you call this, you are supporting > > this and suggesting that 'Rama Rajya ' would help us cure of our ills. > > The headache is yours and not of others who don't want to believe > > these parables over laden with instruments of moral policing. > > Regards, > > Venu > > . > > > > > > > > 22, 2009 at 11:40 AM, Rajen Uppinangadi > > wrote: > >> Hi, > >> > >> Venu; > >> > >> Such general sweeping comments do not hold water in pluralistic > >> society > >> like this free India. To condemn the "brahminical" thinking itself is > >> absurd, as brahminical way of thinking is for "sarve jana sukhino > >> bhavanthu, > >> in Vasudaiva kutumbakam. > >> > >> While it is true that in every faith, the women are subjugated, > >> denied > >> education and are less privileged with rights and the accent is > >> more on > >> their duties, it is absurd to say that hindu way of life > >> encourages such in > >> equality, for if it was so, gargi and maithreyi would not have had > >> the place > >> in the arguments for the society.The marad killings would not have > >> happened > >> when children and women were massacred in your backyard of Kerala. > >> Shah Bano > >> case would not have been the instance to talk about where > >> livelihood was > >> denied for a woman.Compared to other faiths, hindu way of life has > >> exceptional place for women in modern living, unlike taliban which > >> shoots > >> down the couple if found walking together, the mullas would not > >> proclaim > >> fathwas for the saving of a father for raping his own daughter. With > >> changing times, it is reforms that have taken place in hindu way > >> of life > >> from within religion rather than outside, thanks to persons like Raja > >> Rammohan Roy, Jyothi Phule , and many other reformists, in modern > >> times even > >> Ambedkar has contributed his might to reforms in the way society > >> treats the > >> oppressed. But the political will to reforms in society has to > >> come from > >> within the society as no amounts of laws can change as seen in > >> Dowry act, > >> and the dowry menace is flourishing in all faiths.In fact, the roman > >> catholic weddings in Kerala are notorious for the wedding and > >> lavish dory > >> angle to them, as clergy would bless the couple who part with > >> substantially > >> dirty, obscene amounts for such blessing of an arch bishop, as was > >> told to > >> me by a bishop friend. > >> > >> So, to generalise the menace of oppression only to one way of > >> life, hindu is > >> not only reflects the general trend of condemning whatever is > >> hindu, as > >> brahminical. As to Rama Rajya, let it be remembered that Rama was > >> kshatriya > >> king who administered his subjects wth care and concern for public > >> opinion. > >> A doubt about his own wife as expressed by a subject made him take > >> the harsh > >> step to send his wife to the forests when she was pregnent, to the > >> Ashram. > >> Todays leaders do not care for the public opinion as much as they > >> did , but > >> generate public opinion thru media and other means for their > >> agendas, is my > >> perception. > >> > >> Regards, > >> > >> Rajen. > >> > >> On Tue, Apr 21, 2009 at 5:50 PM, Venugopalan K M > >> > >> wrote: > >>> > >>> Dear Rajen, > >>> > >>> By adopting such a position on Brahmanical and Brahmanism, one > >>> will stand > >>> to lose the very usefulness of this important concept. As you > >>> were stating > >>> it has less to do with propagating hate than understanding the > >>> exceptionally > >>> institutionalized and ritualized hate in the social and cultural > >>> life of > >>> India. > >>> This is sure to raise lot of other questions: Why, for example > >>> after the > >>> happening of the Khairlanji in September 2006 {almost the entire > >>> people of a > >>> village participate in the act of parading naked,raping, > >>> (women),killing and > >>> mutilating the bodies of the 4 victims who were members of a > >>> dalit family > >>> (converted to Budhism) }, the entire media kept silence for about > >>> one month? > >>> So , an understanding of Brahmanism together with Brahmanical > >>> ways of > >>> thinking, not only does not talk of Brahmans as persons but > >>> more as a > >>> collective and typically negative attitude. It is characterized by > >>> defending privileges with respect to the ascending order of caste > >>> and > >>> denying equality; significantly women of all castes are > >>> automatically > >>> considered inferior to their male counterparts(this is also seen > >>> in every > >>> other religion; but practices of cruelty to widows ,women not > >>> giving birth > >>> to to male offsprings, not able to consummate marriage etc,etc > >>> are viewed > >>> with special contempt in the brahmanical Hinduism).The extremely > >>> negative > >>> attitude to change or reform is a direct result of a desire to > >>> protect the > >>> system of privileges to the exclusion of others. These are > >>> generally what > >>> are considered as traits associated with > >>> Brahmanism.Unfortunately, majority > >>> of victims of this system of heirarchy are ideologically co-opted > >>> to it; > >>> they are not expected to doubt the system which is has been > >>> taught to them > >>> as divinely ordained.They are expected to just obey without > >>> grumbles and > >>> get better off in the future birth.(Chathrvarnam maya srushtam > >>> guna karma > >>> vibhagasa- The system has been created by me according to your > >>> past karma > >>> and your qualities and just do your caste-ordained duties-this is > >>> the > >>> message of Bhagvan in Gita (Ch IX verse 32 ?..I don't remember it > >>> correctly) > >>> I'm not suggesting that every person believing in the Hindu > >>> scriptures and > >>> the Gita would support mass murders and ritualistic killings of > >>> dalits as > >>> happened in khairlanji..not that the media always will attempt to > >>> cover up > >>> such incidents.To be certain, in the media controlled by the > >>> upper caste > >>> Hindus,there is always a tendency to underplay the unpleasant > >>> factors > >>> related with caste. Gandhi was a great admirer and interpretor of > >>> Gita and > >>> yet he was assassinated by Godse, who was a fanatic adherent of > >>> Brahmanism.But even Gandhi believed in a Ramarajya of his own > >>> notion..so are > >>> the less enlightened 'Hindu' masses to a greater or lesser > >>> degree in > >>> denying equality to women and lower castes, the very victims of > >>> discriminations included.Then, not to speak of the tendency to > >>> resist > >>> reservations and to monopolize knowledge and power by a minority. > >>> Certainly, > >>> the print media dominated by the upper caste plays a significant > >>> role in > >>> perpetuating the bias against the under privileged.The internet > >>> and the > >>> electronic media at a more globalized level, are able to > >>> challenge this > >>> privilege of the upper caste elites in significant ways. > >>> Regards, > >>> Venu. > >>> > >>> Regards, > >>> Venu. > >>> > >>> > >>> On Tue, Apr 21, 2009 at 4:31 PM, Rajen Uppinangadi > >>> wrote: > >>>> > >>>> Hi, > >>>> > >>>> Venu, > >>>> > >>>> List is at times, makes up for the surprise packages for all > >>>> with > >>>> undertones of "caste" and is casted with caste as theme of > >>>> hate, if one > >>>> post talks of twice born as brahmins, another talks of brahminical > >>>> domination of media, which are again myths to say the least, if > >>>> otherwise it > >>>> is meant to be "learned" are brahmins, knowledgeable "caste", > >>>> then may be > >>>> it is acceptable but still as we strive for togetherness above > >>>> the caste and > >>>> faith conundrums of hate, it is really ammusing that of all you > >>>> start with > >>>> this theme of hate on the basi of caste.? > >>>> > >>>> To illustrate, Mr. Kancha Illayya, regular columnist, who > >>>> takes up > >>>> issues of oppressed is a brahmin by his domination in media with > >>>> the issues, > >>>> just as sage Vishwamitra who gave the most potent manthra, > >>>> Gayathri, is > >>>> brahmin by his work, not by birth.? But contrary examples are > >>>> also are > >>>> visible in society, where by birth some are brahmins, but > >>>> behaviour is that > >>>> of worse than anyone, like the Dr. Murli manohar Joshi, in his > >>>> acts and > >>>> utterances.? Again, a journalist and lecturer in Physics., Dr. > >>>> Joshi, who > >>>> blindly follows the rituals without knowing the reasons behind > >>>> such rituals, > >>>> is again worse off even as brahmin born, as birth does not give > >>>> the right to > >>>> oppress others.? For example, the meaning of twice born is that > >>>> once the > >>>> child is born, at the tender age of around 12 years, he is vowed > >>>> to go for > >>>> higher studies to Benares, and the trip being in olden days, > >>>> hazardous, it > >>>> was presumed to be secong birth to undertake such a long journey > >>>> for > >>>> education, times have changed with chools imparting education at > >>>> hop, skip > >>>> and jump distances from homes these days.? > >>>> > >>>> As to media and media houses, most of them are run atleast in > >>>> Karnataka > >>>> by Idigas, or theeyas, or known in slang as toddy tappers, so > >>>> the education > >>>> has changed everything, let us come out of this caste fixation, > >>>> judge the > >>>> works rather than the caste.Visual media channels are again run by > >>>> individuals who know how to run the business with trps, news is > >>>> not what > >>>> viewers want, but what the channels dish out as views in news in > >>>> this age of > >>>> info-tainment. Otherwise how do you explain the anchors and > >>>> their behaviour > >>>> with type of presentation of "news" compared to western media, > >>>> where anchors > >>>> are better dressed with least exposure of made up face and bodies.? > >>>> > >>>> Regards, > >>>> > >>>> Rajen. > >>>> > >>>> > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> -- > >>> http://venukm.blogspot.com/ > >> > >> > > > > > > > > -- > > http://venukm.blogspot.com/ > > _________________________________________ > > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > > Critiques & Collaborations > > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > > subscribe in the subject header. > > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> > > Shuddhabrata Sengupta > The Sarai Programme at CSDS > Raqs Media Collective > shuddha at sarai.net > www.sarai.net > www.raqsmediacollective.net > > > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > subscribe in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> > From indersalim at gmail.com Thu Apr 23 20:19:46 2009 From: indersalim at gmail.com (Inder Salim) Date: Thu, 23 Apr 2009 20:19:46 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Fwd: My Brief Review of Women and Islam on the Shelfari Page In-Reply-To: References: <1f9180970904220555u4bf082f7s69b985951c91c56c@mail.gmail.com> <776167.60166.qm@web57202.mail.re3.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <47e122a70904230749w68ad3888v4b2eaec76e9cec6a@mail.gmail.com> Dear Javed, It is true, both Hadith and Quran generate meaning when studied together, like it is difficult to understand Gita without listening the entire epic of Mahabarata, (I am not a student of both, not even remotely ) Here I think of the point when a mind arrives.... when the words are uttered a little differently than usual. It is at that time , when the mind actually believes, and it must be true, that there is a hidden source to all this enigmatic outburst, which we call poetry. Aatey hain Gaib say yeh mazameen khayan mein, Ghalib Sareer-nama Nawa-ai Sarosh hai ( These verses , full of content are coming to me from unknown sources, and, he almost reminds himself, ie.Ghalib, that the sound which the hallow reed on the paper is making while writing these verses is in fact the angel, singing. ) Well, without going into the comparison, between Prophet Mohamad and Ghalib, I believe that there is a strange critical awareness in the mind too, that it is the mind itself which is composing these verses, and that is why the Ghalib’s couplet, that is why perhaps, the verses when Prophet Mohammed confessed, again though the genuine Angel, that Satan had come in disguise. It is sheer honesty. As I know, Prophet Mohamad did not write Quran himself, but his deputies wrote it down for him, which is very similar to Ved Vyas, who was not able to write Mahabarata and so a boy, or directly Lord Ganesha who wrote it down for him. We have reasons to believe that it is true, although we know that oral tradition, such as Hadith itself, or memorizing the verses was the norm those days. So it might have been compiled a little later after his death, even . Some scholars even believe that first quran was complied after 200 years after Prophet Mohammad left this temporal world. And besides there is no visible trace of any Quran of that time. I beleive, the earlierst one is 9th century old. You can correct me that, please. Mahabharata, also depicts the fight between different kings and clans, and the poet ( himself part of that clan/blood ) emphasized the reasons of war, and the lessons we might derive from it, such as ethics and sympathy for the other ( salve, women , children or the oppressed ). Krishana was sympathetic to Sudama, his poor friend etc... Not for nothing, it is often said that Prophet Mohammad was compassionate, and also believed that the ink of scholars is precious than the blood of martyrs. The times were too difficult for these oppressed clans, who were fighting constantly the rulers who were mostly Jews, and Christians at other times. It is within the infighting between Jews and Christians ( to say it very simply ) that we see the emergence of Mohammad, the prophet, Note,we say him prophet because he had the gift of being too good with words, but as I know during those days, reciting poetry in public was forbidden, can cost one dearly, even with life. So it had to be uttered secretly, probably to close friends in a cave. This is where Hadith helps us the understand, the customs, the other utterances and ways of living during those times which has indeed shaped the Quran it self. So the necessity of reading both. Quote : Truth is subjectivity. by Søren Kierkegaard with love and regards inder salim On Thu, Apr 23, 2009 at 2:42 PM, M Javed wrote: > Dear Kshmendra > There is no medieval culture or civilization which didn't have slavery > in it. In some places it is still existing in the form of castism. > While it is true that the Quran or Prophet Muhammad did not abolish > slavery, the movements to end it truly started in the Muslim world, > much before it was abolished even in Europe. It would be interesting > to take a look at a book which is even available online: > > Islam and the abolition of slavery > By W. G. Clarence-Smith > > http://books.google.co.in/books?id=nQbylEdqJKkC&dq=islam+against+slavery&printsec=frontcover&source=in&hl=en&ei=oC3wSaKiM4zW6gO_4qCfDw&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=11#PPP1,M1 > > Please explain why do you say that most people go wrong when they try > to read Quran with hadith. Almost all Islamic scholars are of the > opinion that the cryptic nature of the Quran can be best understood by > interpreting it through hadiths - the two cannot be understood without > each other. I would like you to read on essay about some new work on > the interpretation of hadith: > > http://www.isim.nl/files/review_21/review_21-6.pdf > > Javed > > > On Wed, Apr 22, 2009 at 7:43 PM, Kshmendra Kaul wrote: >> Dear Venugopalan >> >> Just a few comments on what you have written: >> >> - Mohammed's son-in-law was Ali (not Umer) >> >> - Slavery is institutionalised in Islam through the Quran. It comments on it and gives no injunction against it as being unacceptable >> >> - There is no advisory favouring the HIJAB in the Quran other than ONLY for the wives of Mohammed (this is open to interpretations). >> >> - Certain controversial advisories in the Quran and specifically the Law for Evidences, makes suspect a claim of 'equality between the sexes' as may be understood in secular terms >> >> - You err in referring to the 'monotheistic universal faith is absolutely egalitarian' of Islam as being a VISION of Mohammed. It is the VISION of ALLAH and not Mohammed. >> >> While on this subject; Most commentators on Islam including Muslims do wrong when they try to read the Quran in combination with the Hadith. The Hadith are sectarian and indeed political and may not always be in-line with the Quranic word, which makes some doubly suspect. >> >> Even in the reading of the Quran (and this is solely my own understanding), it would help both Muslims and Non-Muslims to understand things better if they were to identify the following aspects: >> >> - Self-declatory by Allah. A generalised commentary on Creator and the Creations and expectations of Creator from Creations >> >> - Advisories for Mohammed alone >> >> - Advisories for everyone >> >> - Advisories for specific times >> >> - Advisories valid in perpetuity for ever after >> >> - Commentaries of the times before Mohammed that may or may not be advisories in perpetutity for ever after >> >> Kshmendra >> >> >> --- On Wed, 4/22/09, Venugopalan K M wrote: >> >> From: Venugopalan K M >> Subject: Fwd: My Brief Review of Women and Islam on the Shelfari Page >> To: "sarai-list" >> Date: Wednesday, April 22, 2009, 6:25 PM >> >> >> >> >> >> ---------- Forwarded message ---------- >> From: Venugopalan K M >> Date: Wed, Apr 22, 2009 at 6:23 PM >> Subject: Fwd: My Brief Review of Women and Islam on the Shelfari Page >> To: >> >> >> >> Respected friends, >> Kindly send in your comments; I expect to be benefited by them as I shortly intend to publish a translation of the work in Malayalam, which is my mother tongue. >> Warmly, >> Venu. >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> Women and Islam: An Historical and Theological Enquiry >> by Fatima Mernissi >> In this book the author, who is both a feminist and a Muslim, aims to shed light on the status of women in Islam by examining and reassessing the literary sources as far back as 7th century Islam. She portrays how, far from being the oppressor of women that his detractors have claimed, the Prophet upheld the equality of all true believers. Here is a bold reconciliation of feminism with the... (more) >> >> kmvenuannur >> o Rated 0 stars >> >> “ Fatima Mernissi has done an epoch making and scholarly exploration of the Suras (original Quranic verses) and the Hadits (accounts by the Companions of the Prophet about how the Messenger of God responded to challenging moments in the lives of first generation of believers,methodically cross checked and compiled by religious scholars who lived in the first two centuries of Islam) along with the interpretations since then. The major findings of the author are the following: >> 1. The Prophet undoubtedly wanted no separation between the public and private realms of life. >> 2. His vision of a monotheistic universal faith is absolutely egalitarian and that is a world in which women could shoulder equal roles with that of men in political, social and economic realms with a view to creating a new world that would assure peace and happiness to all humans. >> 3. While Islam would not sanction the practice of slavery among the believers, continuation of that institution for several centuries was possible in the actual islamic regimes thanks to the denial of option (to the new religion )to the prisoners of wars, who were mostly women from the pre Islamic kingdoms. However,their chidren were considered free persons. These women were treated as slaves and they were traded off or exchanged as booty. >> 4.The descend of Hijab,the physical as well as the symbolicl separation of private and public spaces happened as a response to the grave crisis in the Medina priod,which corresponded to the later phase in the life of the Prophet. Years between Hejra 3-8 (AD 625- 628) were crtical periods of crisis characterized by severe losses and uncertainity both on the side of military expetitions and on the socio-economic life of people. >> 5. Evenwhile the Prophet together with his wives and many of the articulate women in the Medinese city continued adherence to the principle of equality( between men and women) , they encountered lot of social abuses on account of this. >> 6. The prominent of the male Companions led by his son in law Umer continuously pressed on the Prophet to impose restrictions for women. They persisted on the view that solution to the above crisis of credibility and above all the insecurity, was in the separation of the Muslim space into two- public space was to be preserved as exclusive domain of men, and the private space as the secluded space for women- both these spaces to be separated by a Hijab- >> 7. The Hijab ultimately descended from the Heaven as revealed to the Prophet during the night of a wedding dinner in connection with his first night with Zainab in the year Hejra 5 (AD 627). The immediate provocation of the incident, according to a Hadith, was boorish behaviour of three men who continued to linger there chatting, sitting in the room without leaving the place even after the dinner; Prophet was eagerly waiting to be left alone in the company of Zainab,his new bride sitting in the same room. ” >> kmvenuannur wrote this review 1 minute ago. ( reply | edit |permalink ) >> >> >> >> >> >> _________________________________________ >> reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. >> Critiques & Collaborations >> To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with subscribe in the subject header. >> To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list >> List archive: > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with subscribe in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> -- http://indersalim.livejournal.com From kmvenuannur at gmail.com Thu Apr 23 20:27:28 2009 From: kmvenuannur at gmail.com (Venugopalan K M) Date: Thu, 23 Apr 2009 20:27:28 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Fwd: My Brief Review of Women and Islam on the Shelfari Page In-Reply-To: <443079.12266.qm@web57203.mail.re3.yahoo.com> References: <443079.12266.qm@web57203.mail.re3.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <1f9180970904230757u5bda01a2t7b68f662eea62fe3@mail.gmail.com> Dear Ksmendra, i'm tempted to briefly intervene at this stage, though was waiting for more posts to come in. My take at this point is that the contentions of Fathima Mernissi(only few mentioned in my original post) are worth listening, given the background of aspersions about Islam both as a deram about a new world of peace,equality and justice for all humans as envisioned by Mohamed in the 7th century Arabia and as a practicing faith since then, where women are asked to remain confined to purdahs. Fathima, by undertaking a scholarly journey through most of the authentic historical and theological material finds a disturbing contradiction between these two aspects of Islam .Apparently she wants to forge ahead placing this contradiction bluntly before the "subjects of official Islam(s)"and others, with uncompromising claim for equal citizenship to 'Islamic' and women . Regards, Venu On Thu, Apr 23, 2009 at 7:56 PM, Kshmendra Kaul wrote: > Dear Javed > > SLAVERY > > Venugopalan stated that "Islam would not sanction the practice of slavery > among > the believers" > > I countered that with "Slavery is institutionalised in Islam through the > Quran". You too do not seem to disagree with that. > > Where the movement to abolish slavery started is hardly relevant and your > claim is not necessarily correct. What is relevant is 'who actually > abolished it'. > > The weblink for the Book you provided does not allow a read of all pages of > the book. But here are a few interesting extracts: > > - Participants in such controversies rarely heed Jacques Jomier's wise > words that no religion is in the position to cast the first stone in the > matter of slavery > > - Abdullahi al-Naim ...... concluded "slavery is lawful under sharia to the > present day" > > That is how it is. No one can change that since that would mean abrogating > passages from the Quran. > > > HADEETH > > Islam would have had, if it had so been followed, the strength of there > being a single text, the Quran. The deep sectarian divides amongst Muslims > come from the Hadeeth and Rivayaat taking forward the history of divides > that started almost immediately after the death of Mohammed. > > Although, between sects there is quibbling over interpretations of some > text even from the Quran but it is the non-acceptace of any set of Hadeeth > and Rivaayat universally by all Muslims that has deepened the divides. > > Forget about what Islamic scholars say. If they knew what they were talking > about, Islam as represented by those who claim to be Muslims would not be in > the mess that it is. > > The sects cannot even agree on what a single version of the Last Sermon of > Mohammed not to speak of the thousands of Hadeeth and Rivaayat. > > The Word is God. Quran is the Word. There cannot be any intercession in the > relationship between the Creator and Creations. If it is a question of > understanding the Quran, then the Quran itself tells Mohammed that (even) he > will not understand some parts of the Quran. > > Even the Sunnis for example might have started by claiming the trueness of > the Sahi Sitta (6 Hadeeth books), they are to this day struggling to agree > whether all of their contents are Sahi (true). The Shias of course hold much > of the contents in those books in contempt and yet funnily enough at times > use some content from those very books to attack the Sunnis and especially > Aisha and the first three Khalifas. Quite a mess. > > The write-up on Al Albani's work forwarded by you only confirms this. One > more attempt to sort out the Hadeeth and Rivayaat. How can they serve as a > useful tool to understand the Quran if they continue to be controversial? > > Interestingly the write-up makes reference to Al Albani's "The Veil of the > Muslim Woman" where apparently he has argued that Muslim women should not > cover their faces. But thats another topic. > > What the Muslims need to do is to go back to the basics. Study the Quran > and the Quran alone and understand it along the lines I had written about > earlier: > > - Self-declaratory by Allah. A generalised commentary on Creator and the > Creations and expectations of Creator from Creations > - Advisories for Mohammed alone > - Advisories for everyone > - Advisories for specific times > - Advisories valid in perpetuity for ever after > - Commentaries of the times before Mohammed that may or may not > be advisories in perpetutity for ever after > > Once they agree on a common understanding they will find much in the > Hadeeth and Rivaayat from the different sects that need to be discarded. > They will find quite unimportant some of the difference they quarrel > over. They will find a new understanding of what a true Muslim is that will > not make them suspect in the eyes of everyone else. > > Kshmendra > > > --- On *Thu, 4/23/09, M Javed * wrote: > > From: M Javed > Subject: Re: [Reader-list] Fwd: My Brief Review of Women and Islam on the > Shelfari Page > To: kshmendra2005 at yahoo.com > Cc: "sarai-list" , "Venugopalan K M" < > kmvenuannur at gmail.com> > Date: Thursday, April 23, 2009, 2:42 PM > > > Dear Kshmendra > There is no medieval culture or civilization which didn't have slavery > in it. In some places it is still existing in the form of castism. > While it is true that the Quran or Prophet Muhammad did not abolish > slavery, the movements to end it truly started in the Muslim world, > much before it was abolished even in Europe. It would be interesting > to take a look at a book which is even available online: > > Islam and the abolition of slavery > By W. G. Clarence-Smith > http://books.google.co.in/books?id=nQbylEdqJKkC&dq=islam+against+slavery&printsec=frontcover&source=in&hl=en&ei=oC3wSaKiM4zW6gO_4qCfDw&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=11#PPP1,M1 > > Please explain why do you say that most people go wrong when they try > to read Quran with hadith. Almost all Islamic scholars are of the > opinion that the cryptic nature of the Quran can be best understood by > interpreting it through hadiths - the two cannot be understood without > each other. I would like you to read on essay about some new work on > the interpretation of hadith: > http://www.isim.nl/files/review_21/review_21-6.pdf > > Javed > > > On Wed, Apr 22, 2009 at 7:43 PM, Kshmendra Kaul > wrote: > > Dear Venugopalan > > > > Just a few comments on what you have written: > > > > - Mohammed's son-in-law was Ali (not Umer) > > > > - Slavery is institutionalised in Islam through the Quran. It comments on > it and gives no injunction against it as being unacceptable > > > > - There is no advisory favouring the HIJAB in the Quran other than ONLY > for the wives of Mohammed (this is open to interpretations). > > > > - Certain controversial advisories in the Quran and specifically the Law > for Evidences, makes suspect a claim of 'equality between the sexes' as > may be understood in secular terms > > > > - You err in referring to the 'monotheistic universal faith is > absolutely egalitarian' of Islam as being a VISION of Mohammed. It is the > VISION of ALLAH and not Mohammed. > > > > While on this subject; Most commentators on Islam including Muslims do > wrong when they try to read the Quran in combination with the Hadith. The Hadith > are sectarian and indeed political and may not always be in-line with the > Quranic word, which makes some doubly suspect. > > > > Even in the reading of the Quran (and this is solely my own > understanding), it would help both Muslims and Non-Muslims to understand things > better if they were to identify the following aspects: > > > > - Self-declatory by Allah. A generalised commentary on Creator and the > Creations and expectations of Creator from Creations > > > > - Advisories for Mohammed alone > > > > - Advisories for everyone > > > > - Advisories for specific times > > > > - Advisories valid in perpetuity for ever after > > > > - Commentaries of the times before Mohammed that may or may not > be advisories in perpetutity for ever after > > > > Kshmendra > > > > > > --- On Wed, 4/22/09, Venugopalan K M wrote: > > > > From: Venugopalan K M > > Subject: Fwd: My Brief Review of Women and Islam on the Shelfari Page > > To: "sarai-list" > > Date: Wednesday, April 22, 2009, 6:25 PM > > > > > > > > > > > > ---------- Forwarded message ---------- > > From: Venugopalan K M > > Date: Wed, Apr 22, 2009 at 6:23 PM > > Subject: Fwd: My Brief Review of Women and Islam on the Shelfari Page > > To: > > > > > > > > Respected friends, > > Kindly send in your comments; I expect to be benefited by them as I > shortly intend to publish a translation of the work in Malayalam, which is my > mother tongue. > > Warmly, > > Venu. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Women and Islam: An Historical and Theological Enquiry > > by Fatima Mernissi > > In this book the author, who is both a feminist and a Muslim, aims to shed > light on the status of women in Islam by examining and reassessing the literary > sources as far back as 7th century Islam. She portrays how, far from being the > oppressor of women that his detractors have claimed, the Prophet upheld the > equality of all true believers. Here is a bold reconciliation of feminism with > the... (more) > > > > kmvenuannur > > o Rated 0 stars > > > > “ Fatima Mernissi has done an epoch making and scholarly > exploration of the Suras (original Quranic verses) and the Hadits (accounts by > the Companions of the Prophet about how the Messenger of God responded to > challenging moments in the lives of first generation of believers,methodically > cross checked and compiled by religious scholars who lived in the first two > centuries of Islam) along with the interpretations since then. The major > findings of the author are the following: > > 1. The Prophet undoubtedly wanted no separation between the public > and private realms of life. > > 2. His vision of a monotheistic universal faith is absolutely > egalitarian and that is a world in which women could shoulder equal roles with > that of men in political, social and economic realms with a view to creating a > new world that would assure peace and happiness to all humans. > > 3. While Islam would not sanction the practice of slavery among > the believers, continuation of that institution for several centuries was > possible in the actual islamic regimes thanks to the denial of option (to the > new religion )to the prisoners of wars, who were mostly women from the pre > Islamic kingdoms. However,their chidren were considered free persons. These > women were treated as slaves and they were traded off or exchanged as booty. > > 4.The descend of Hijab,the physical as well as the symbolicl > separation of private and public spaces happened as a response to the grave > crisis in the Medina priod,which corresponded to the later phase in the life of > the Prophet. Years between Hejra 3-8 (AD 625- 628) were crtical periods of > crisis characterized by severe losses and uncertainity both on the side of > military expetitions and on the socio-economic life of people. > > 5. Evenwhile the Prophet together with his wives and many of the > articulate women in the Medinese city continued adherence to the principle of > equality( between men and women) , they encountered lot of social abuses on > account of this. > > 6. The prominent of the male Companions led by his son in law Umer > continuously pressed on the Prophet to impose restrictions for women. They > persisted on the view that solution to the above crisis of credibility and above > all the insecurity, was in the separation of the Muslim space into two- public > space was to be preserved as exclusive domain of men, and the private space as > the secluded space for women- both these spaces to be separated by a Hijab- > > 7. The Hijab ultimately descended from the Heaven as revealed to > the Prophet during the night of a wedding dinner in connection with his first > night with Zainab in the year Hejra 5 (AD 627). The immediate provocation of the > incident, according to a Hadith, was boorish behaviour of three men who > continued to linger there chatting, sitting in the room without leaving the > place even after the dinner; Prophet was eagerly waiting to be left alone in the > company of Zainab,his new bride sitting in the same room. ” > > kmvenuannur wrote this review 1 minute ago. ( reply | edit > |permalink ) > > > > > > > > > > > > _________________________________________ > > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > > Critiques & Collaborations > > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > subscribe in the subject header. > > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > > List archive: > > > -- http://venukm.blogspot.com/ From indersalim at gmail.com Thu Apr 23 20:40:31 2009 From: indersalim at gmail.com (Inder Salim) Date: Thu, 23 Apr 2009 20:40:31 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Brahminical dominence ? In-Reply-To: <6b79f1a70904230730h5c6a8d6bia01f9f820a433b93@mail.gmail.com> References: <61164a90904210401k462156f8u40f90cea6a76c155@mail.gmail.com> <1f9180970904210520i7b46f3der639cf53ef5821d0@mail.gmail.com> <61164a90904212310x745fa773k4094027432b2420c@mail.gmail.com> <1f9180970904220157m18b3e581q41c51526fa881c0c@mail.gmail.com> <71249196-528B-4F3B-8A84-5BD1FC55248B@sarai.net> <6b79f1a70904230730h5c6a8d6bia01f9f820a433b93@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <47e122a70904230810x292f746fo298abd9f89ef793f@mail.gmail.com> I see it again through the eyes of a poet, here, valmiki himself, who was not a favourite with the ruling elite of Dashratha's Kingdom, but was deeply documenting all the happenings inside and outside the palace. There was indeed political infighting between different wives of the King Dashratha, and that has obviously let his 14 years exile in the forests. How come, the pregnant Sita was helped by the poet himself. It is all the great compassionate heart that brings out such a fantastic human end to an epic, which is full of motherly love. I believe, the poet Valmiki was transformed into a pregnant himself, and that is why we all the reasons to respect the poet, the great valmiki, the untouchable... Shamuka , say, imaginary character, but untouchable like the poet himself, who was killed for no fault of his. And i believe the poet has all the rights to express himself though a protagonist or a character, See, Ved Vyas must have been a really romantic poet, and that is why there is a long documentation of Krishna's adolescent life with other village girls. so nothing derogatory about writing about it, if one has the sense of humor and reasoning intact. with love and regards inder salim On Thu, Apr 23, 2009 at 8:00 PM, Pawan Durani wrote: > Dear Shuddha, > I am just curious . Would you dare to use the same language if we quote > something from Holy Quran and refer Prophet Mohammad [ pbuh] . > > > Lean to respect religion and faith. > > Pawan > > On Thu, Apr 23, 2009 at 4:33 AM, Shuddhabrata Sengupta wrote: > >> Is this character called Ram or Rama not the same arrogant king who >> once killed a scholar called Shambuka >> because he was found studying the scriptures. The crime being that >> Shambuka was an untouchable and so could not touch the scriptures, >> even with his mind. >> >> Would I want to live in a society where kings slaughter scholars for >> the crime of their curiosity? No, I would not. I touch a lot of >> stuff with my impure mind, and I want to live safe from stupid kings >> who don't know better. I think we ought to be grateful that Ram Rajya >> is as yet a distant dream of a lunatic fringe. Lets hope it stays >> that way. >> >> best >> >> Shuddha >> On 22-Apr-09, at 2:27 PM, Venugopalan K M wrote: >> >> >> "..."As to Rama Rajya, let it be remembered that Rama was kshatriya >> > king who administered his subjects wth care and concern for public >> > opinion. A doubt about his own wife as expressed by a subject made him >> > take the harsh step to send his wife to the forests when she was >> > pregnent, to the Ashram. Todays leaders do not care for the public >> > opinion as much as they did , but generate public opinion thru media >> > and other means for their agendas, is my perception".." >> > >> > But that is excatly what I would rather take objection to not just >> > your concept of 'Rajya' but also its iconic hero, Ram. >> > Please excuse me when I say that this vulgar expression of >> > "prajahitham"(public opinion) against a poor woman is nothing >> > different from its newer versions of "hithams" of Sri Ram Senes! >> > >> > While it is repugnant to humanity, seen even by the standards of >> > ancient monarchy it is much more unacceptable to the standards of >> > human rights of our age. It would be a grave instance of atrocity >> > perpetrated against women with impunity by the kings in the name of >> > 'public opinion'. What sort of king was he to grow suspicious of the >> > chastity of his queen lived in forced exile , and yet to take recourse >> > to 'public opinion' (most probably manufactured) to justify throwing >> > her to fire? What bloody business this poor dhobi family had to >> > suspect Sita as a bad woman? In my understanding, this is nothing but >> > projection of source of one's own ill feeling to someone else, >> > skulking away from taking up the moral responsibility. The kind of >> > relationship the king had with the queen, perhaps might have gone to >> > deep trouble even otherwise. >> > >> > Well, this tendency to dupe people by spreading cock and bull stories >> > about dharma in an effort to justify the most grotesque violence >> > against women and the lower caste people might be part of the essence >> > of Ramarajya of the past as well as the present, and this is what many >> > people call Brahmanism. Whatever you call this, you are supporting >> > this and suggesting that 'Rama Rajya ' would help us cure of our ills. >> > The headache is yours and not of others who don't want to believe >> > these parables over laden with instruments of moral policing. >> > Regards, >> > Venu >> > . >> > >> > >> > >> > 22, 2009 at 11:40 AM, Rajen Uppinangadi >> > wrote: >> >> Hi, >> >> >> >> Venu; >> >> >> >> Such general sweeping comments do not hold water in pluralistic >> >> society >> >> like this free India. To condemn the "brahminical" thinking itself is >> >> absurd, as brahminical way of thinking is for "sarve jana sukhino >> >> bhavanthu, >> >> in Vasudaiva kutumbakam. >> >> >> >> While it is true that in every faith, the women are subjugated, >> >> denied >> >> education and are less privileged with rights and the accent is >> >> more on >> >> their duties, it is absurd to say that hindu way of life >> >> encourages such in >> >> equality, for if it was so, gargi and maithreyi would not have had >> >> the place >> >> in the arguments for the society.The marad killings would not have >> >> happened >> >> when children and women were massacred in your backyard of Kerala. >> >> Shah Bano >> >> case would not have been the instance to talk about where >> >> livelihood was >> >> denied for a woman.Compared to other faiths, hindu way of life has >> >> exceptional place for women in modern living, unlike taliban which >> >> shoots >> >> down the couple if found walking together, the mullas would not >> >> proclaim >> >> fathwas for the saving of a father for raping his own daughter. With >> >> changing times, it is reforms that have taken place in hindu way >> >> of life >> >> from within religion rather than outside, thanks to persons like Raja >> >> Rammohan Roy, Jyothi Phule , and many other reformists, in modern >> >> times even >> >> Ambedkar has contributed his might to reforms in the way society >> >> treats the >> >> oppressed. But the political will to reforms in society has to >> >> come from >> >> within the society as no amounts of laws can change as seen in >> >> Dowry act, >> >> and the dowry menace is flourishing in all faiths.In fact, the roman >> >> catholic weddings in Kerala are notorious for the wedding and >> >> lavish dory >> >> angle to them, as clergy would bless the couple who part with >> >> substantially >> >> dirty, obscene amounts for such blessing of an arch bishop, as was >> >> told to >> >> me by a bishop friend. >> >> >> >> So, to generalise the menace of oppression only to one way of >> >> life, hindu is >> >> not only reflects the general trend of condemning whatever is >> >> hindu, as >> >> brahminical. As to Rama Rajya, let it be remembered that Rama was >> >> kshatriya >> >> king who administered his subjects wth care and concern for public >> >> opinion. >> >> A doubt about his own wife as expressed by a subject made him take >> >> the harsh >> >> step to send his wife to the forests when she was pregnent, to the >> >> Ashram. >> >> Todays leaders do not care for the public opinion as much as they >> >> did , but >> >> generate public opinion thru media and other means for their >> >> agendas, is my >> >> perception. >> >> >> >> Regards, >> >> >> >> Rajen. >> >> >> >> On Tue, Apr 21, 2009 at 5:50 PM, Venugopalan K M >> >> >> >> wrote: >> >>> >> >>> Dear Rajen, >> >>> >> >>> By adopting such a position on Brahmanical and Brahmanism, one >> >>> will stand >> >>> to lose the very usefulness of this important concept. As you >> >>> were stating >> >>> it has less to do with propagating hate than understanding the >> >>> exceptionally >> >>> institutionalized and ritualized hate in the social and cultural >> >>> life of >> >>> India. >> >>> This is sure to raise lot of other questions: Why, for example >> >>> after the >> >>> happening of the Khairlanji in September 2006 {almost the entire >> >>> people of a >> >>> village participate in the act of parading naked,raping, >> >>> (women),killing and >> >>> mutilating the bodies of the 4 victims who were members of a >> >>> dalit family >> >>> (converted to Budhism) }, the entire media kept silence for about >> >>> one month? >> >>> So , an understanding of Brahmanism together with Brahmanical >> >>> ways of >> >>> thinking, not only does not talk of Brahmans as persons but >> >>> more as a >> >>> collective and typically negative attitude. It is characterized by >> >>> defending privileges with respect to the ascending order of caste >> >>> and >> >>> denying equality; significantly women of all castes are >> >>> automatically >> >>> considered inferior to their male counterparts(this is also seen >> >>> in every >> >>> other religion; but practices of cruelty to widows ,women not >> >>> giving birth >> >>> to to male offsprings, not able to consummate marriage etc,etc >> >>> are viewed >> >>> with special contempt in the brahmanical Hinduism).The extremely >> >>> negative >> >>> attitude to change or reform is a direct result of a desire to >> >>> protect the >> >>> system of privileges to the exclusion of others. These are >> >>> generally what >> >>> are considered as traits associated with >> >>> Brahmanism.Unfortunately, majority >> >>> of victims of this system of heirarchy are ideologically co-opted >> >>> to it; >> >>> they are not expected to doubt the system which is has been >> >>> taught to them >> >>> as divinely ordained.They are expected to just obey without >> >>> grumbles and >> >>> get better off in the future birth.(Chathrvarnam maya srushtam >> >>> guna karma >> >>> vibhagasa- The system has been created by me according to your >> >>> past karma >> >>> and your qualities and just do your caste-ordained duties-this is >> >>> the >> >>> message of Bhagvan in Gita (Ch IX verse 32 ?..I don't remember it >> >>> correctly) >> >>> I'm not suggesting that every person believing in the Hindu >> >>> scriptures and >> >>> the Gita would support mass murders and ritualistic killings of >> >>> dalits as >> >>> happened in khairlanji..not that the media always will attempt to >> >>> cover up >> >>> such incidents.To be certain, in the media controlled by the >> >>> upper caste >> >>> Hindus,there is always a tendency to underplay the unpleasant >> >>> factors >> >>> related with caste. Gandhi was a great admirer and interpretor of >> >>> Gita and >> >>> yet he was assassinated by Godse, who was a fanatic adherent of >> >>> Brahmanism.But even Gandhi believed in a Ramarajya of his own >> >>> notion..so are >> >>> the less enlightened 'Hindu' masses to a greater or lesser >> >>> degree in >> >>> denying equality to women and lower castes, the very victims of >> >>> discriminations included.Then, not to speak of the tendency to >> >>> resist >> >>> reservations and to monopolize knowledge and power by a minority. >> >>> Certainly, >> >>> the print media dominated by the upper caste plays a significant >> >>> role in >> >>> perpetuating the bias against the under privileged.The internet >> >>> and the >> >>> electronic media at a more globalized level, are able to >> >>> challenge this >> >>> privilege of the upper caste elites in significant ways. >> >>> Regards, >> >>> Venu. >> >>> >> >>> Regards, >> >>> Venu. >> >>> >> >>> >> >>> On Tue, Apr 21, 2009 at 4:31 PM, Rajen Uppinangadi >> >>> wrote: >> >>>> >> >>>> Hi, >> >>>> >> >>>> Venu, >> >>>> >> >>>> List is at times, makes up for the surprise packages for all >> >>>> with >> >>>> undertones of "caste" and is casted with caste as theme of >> >>>> hate, if one >> >>>> post talks of twice born as brahmins, another talks of brahminical >> >>>> domination of media, which are again myths to say the least, if >> >>>> otherwise it >> >>>> is meant to be "learned" are brahmins, knowledgeable "caste", >> >>>> then may be >> >>>> it is acceptable but still as we strive for togetherness above >> >>>> the caste and >> >>>> faith conundrums of hate, it is really ammusing that of all you >> >>>> start with >> >>>> this theme of hate on the basi of caste.? >> >>>> >> >>>> To illustrate, Mr. Kancha Illayya, regular columnist, who >> >>>> takes up >> >>>> issues of oppressed is a brahmin by his domination in media with >> >>>> the issues, >> >>>> just as sage Vishwamitra who gave the most potent manthra, >> >>>> Gayathri, is >> >>>> brahmin by his work, not by birth.? But contrary examples are >> >>>> also are >> >>>> visible in society, where by birth some are brahmins, but >> >>>> behaviour is that >> >>>> of worse than anyone, like the Dr. Murli manohar Joshi, in his >> >>>> acts and >> >>>> utterances.? Again, a journalist and lecturer in Physics., Dr. >> >>>> Joshi, who >> >>>> blindly follows the rituals without knowing the reasons behind >> >>>> such rituals, >> >>>> is again worse off even as brahmin born, as birth does not give >> >>>> the right to >> >>>> oppress others.? For example, the meaning of twice born is that >> >>>> once the >> >>>> child is born, at the tender age of around 12 years, he is vowed >> >>>> to go for >> >>>> higher studies to Benares, and the trip being in olden days, >> >>>> hazardous, it >> >>>> was presumed to be secong birth to undertake such a long journey >> >>>> for >> >>>> education, times have changed with chools imparting education at >> >>>> hop, skip >> >>>> and jump distances from homes these days.? >> >>>> >> >>>> As to media and media houses, most of them are run atleast in >> >>>> Karnataka >> >>>> by Idigas, or theeyas, or known in slang as toddy tappers, so >> >>>> the education >> >>>> has changed everything, let us come out of this caste fixation, >> >>>> judge the >> >>>> works rather than the caste.Visual media channels are again run by >> >>>> individuals who know how to run the business with trps, news is >> >>>> not what >> >>>> viewers want, but what the channels dish out as views in news in >> >>>> this age of >> >>>> info-tainment. Otherwise how do you explain the anchors and >> >>>> their behaviour >> >>>> with type of presentation of "news" compared to western media, >> >>>> where anchors >> >>>> are better dressed with least exposure of made up face and bodies.? >> >>>> >> >>>> Regards, >> >>>> >> >>>> Rajen. >> >>>> >> >>>> >> >>> >> >>> >> >>> >> >>> -- >> >>> http://venukm.blogspot.com/ >> >> >> >> >> > >> > >> > >> > -- >> > http://venukm.blogspot.com/ >> > _________________________________________ >> > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. >> > Critiques & Collaborations >> > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with >> > subscribe in the subject header. >> > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list >> > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> >> >> Shuddhabrata Sengupta >> The Sarai Programme at CSDS >> Raqs Media Collective >> shuddha at sarai.net >> www.sarai.net >> www.raqsmediacollective.net >> >> >> _________________________________________ >> reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. >> Critiques & Collaborations >> To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with >> subscribe in the subject header. >> To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list >> List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> >> > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with subscribe in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> -- http://indersalim.livejournal.com From pawan.durani at gmail.com Thu Apr 23 21:16:29 2009 From: pawan.durani at gmail.com (Pawan Durani) Date: Thu, 23 Apr 2009 21:16:29 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Brahminical dominence ? In-Reply-To: <47e122a70904230810x292f746fo298abd9f89ef793f@mail.gmail.com> References: <61164a90904210401k462156f8u40f90cea6a76c155@mail.gmail.com> <1f9180970904210520i7b46f3der639cf53ef5821d0@mail.gmail.com> <61164a90904212310x745fa773k4094027432b2420c@mail.gmail.com> <1f9180970904220157m18b3e581q41c51526fa881c0c@mail.gmail.com> <71249196-528B-4F3B-8A84-5BD1FC55248B@sarai.net> <6b79f1a70904230730h5c6a8d6bia01f9f820a433b93@mail.gmail.com> <47e122a70904230810x292f746fo298abd9f89ef793f@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <6b79f1a70904230846h117157daxa45dbafc72935cf7@mail.gmail.com> IInder, My question has still been left unanswered. Let me repeat it again ... " Would you dare to use the same language if we quote something from Holy Quran and refer Prophet Mohammad [ pbuh] . Lat time i asked you the same question , i heard you had wet pants. Pawan On 4/23/09, Inder Salim wrote: > > I see it again through the eyes of a poet, here, valmiki himself, who > was not a favourite with the ruling elite of Dashratha's Kingdom, > but was deeply documenting all the happenings inside and outside the > palace. There was indeed political infighting between different wives > of the King Dashratha, and that has obviously let his 14 years exile > in the forests. How come, the pregnant Sita was helped by the poet > himself. It is all the great compassionate heart that brings out such > a fantastic human end to an epic, which is full of motherly love. I > believe, the poet Valmiki was transformed into a pregnant himself, and > that is why we all the reasons to respect the poet, the great valmiki, > the untouchable... > > Shamuka , say, imaginary character, but untouchable like the poet > himself, who was killed for no fault of his. And i believe the poet > has all the rights to express himself though a protagonist or a > character, > > See, Ved Vyas must have been a really romantic poet, and that is why > there is a long documentation of Krishna's adolescent life with other > village girls. > > so nothing derogatory about writing about it, if one has the sense of > humor and reasoning intact. > > with love and regards > inder salim > > > On Thu, Apr 23, 2009 at 8:00 PM, Pawan Durani > wrote: > > Dear Shuddha, > > I am just curious . Would you dare to use the same language if we quote > > something from Holy Quran and refer Prophet Mohammad [ pbuh] . > > > > > > Lean to respect religion and faith. > > > > Pawan > > > > On Thu, Apr 23, 2009 at 4:33 AM, Shuddhabrata Sengupta < > shuddha at sarai.net>wrote: > > > >> Is this character called Ram or Rama not the same arrogant king who > >> once killed a scholar called Shambuka > >> because he was found studying the scriptures. The crime being that > >> Shambuka was an untouchable and so could not touch the scriptures, > >> even with his mind. > >> > >> Would I want to live in a society where kings slaughter scholars for > >> the crime of their curiosity? No, I would not. I touch a lot of > >> stuff with my impure mind, and I want to live safe from stupid kings > >> who don't know better. I think we ought to be grateful that Ram Rajya > >> is as yet a distant dream of a lunatic fringe. Lets hope it stays > >> that way. > >> > >> best > >> > >> Shuddha > >> On 22-Apr-09, at 2:27 PM, Venugopalan K M wrote: > >> > >> >> "..."As to Rama Rajya, let it be remembered that Rama was kshatriya > >> > king who administered his subjects wth care and concern for public > >> > opinion. A doubt about his own wife as expressed by a subject made him > >> > take the harsh step to send his wife to the forests when she was > >> > pregnent, to the Ashram. Todays leaders do not care for the public > >> > opinion as much as they did , but generate public opinion thru media > >> > and other means for their agendas, is my perception".." > >> > > >> > But that is excatly what I would rather take objection to not just > >> > your concept of 'Rajya' but also its iconic hero, Ram. > >> > Please excuse me when I say that this vulgar expression of > >> > "prajahitham"(public opinion) against a poor woman is nothing > >> > different from its newer versions of "hithams" of Sri Ram Senes! > >> > > >> > While it is repugnant to humanity, seen even by the standards of > >> > ancient monarchy it is much more unacceptable to the standards of > >> > human rights of our age. It would be a grave instance of atrocity > >> > perpetrated against women with impunity by the kings in the name of > >> > 'public opinion'. What sort of king was he to grow suspicious of the > >> > chastity of his queen lived in forced exile , and yet to take recourse > >> > to 'public opinion' (most probably manufactured) to justify throwing > >> > her to fire? What bloody business this poor dhobi family had to > >> > suspect Sita as a bad woman? In my understanding, this is nothing but > >> > projection of source of one's own ill feeling to someone else, > >> > skulking away from taking up the moral responsibility. The kind of > >> > relationship the king had with the queen, perhaps might have gone to > >> > deep trouble even otherwise. > >> > > >> > Well, this tendency to dupe people by spreading cock and bull stories > >> > about dharma in an effort to justify the most grotesque violence > >> > against women and the lower caste people might be part of the essence > >> > of Ramarajya of the past as well as the present, and this is what many > >> > people call Brahmanism. Whatever you call this, you are supporting > >> > this and suggesting that 'Rama Rajya ' would help us cure of our ills. > >> > The headache is yours and not of others who don't want to believe > >> > these parables over laden with instruments of moral policing. > >> > Regards, > >> > Venu > >> > . > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > 22, 2009 at 11:40 AM, Rajen Uppinangadi > >> > wrote: > >> >> Hi, > >> >> > >> >> Venu; > >> >> > >> >> Such general sweeping comments do not hold water in pluralistic > >> >> society > >> >> like this free India. To condemn the "brahminical" thinking itself is > >> >> absurd, as brahminical way of thinking is for "sarve jana sukhino > >> >> bhavanthu, > >> >> in Vasudaiva kutumbakam. > >> >> > >> >> While it is true that in every faith, the women are subjugated, > >> >> denied > >> >> education and are less privileged with rights and the accent is > >> >> more on > >> >> their duties, it is absurd to say that hindu way of life > >> >> encourages such in > >> >> equality, for if it was so, gargi and maithreyi would not have had > >> >> the place > >> >> in the arguments for the society.The marad killings would not have > >> >> happened > >> >> when children and women were massacred in your backyard of Kerala. > >> >> Shah Bano > >> >> case would not have been the instance to talk about where > >> >> livelihood was > >> >> denied for a woman.Compared to other faiths, hindu way of life has > >> >> exceptional place for women in modern living, unlike taliban which > >> >> shoots > >> >> down the couple if found walking together, the mullas would not > >> >> proclaim > >> >> fathwas for the saving of a father for raping his own daughter. With > >> >> changing times, it is reforms that have taken place in hindu way > >> >> of life > >> >> from within religion rather than outside, thanks to persons like Raja > >> >> Rammohan Roy, Jyothi Phule , and many other reformists, in modern > >> >> times even > >> >> Ambedkar has contributed his might to reforms in the way society > >> >> treats the > >> >> oppressed. But the political will to reforms in society has to > >> >> come from > >> >> within the society as no amounts of laws can change as seen in > >> >> Dowry act, > >> >> and the dowry menace is flourishing in all faiths.In fact, the roman > >> >> catholic weddings in Kerala are notorious for the wedding and > >> >> lavish dory > >> >> angle to them, as clergy would bless the couple who part with > >> >> substantially > >> >> dirty, obscene amounts for such blessing of an arch bishop, as was > >> >> told to > >> >> me by a bishop friend. > >> >> > >> >> So, to generalise the menace of oppression only to one way of > >> >> life, hindu is > >> >> not only reflects the general trend of condemning whatever is > >> >> hindu, as > >> >> brahminical. As to Rama Rajya, let it be remembered that Rama was > >> >> kshatriya > >> >> king who administered his subjects wth care and concern for public > >> >> opinion. > >> >> A doubt about his own wife as expressed by a subject made him take > >> >> the harsh > >> >> step to send his wife to the forests when she was pregnent, to the > >> >> Ashram. > >> >> Todays leaders do not care for the public opinion as much as they > >> >> did , but > >> >> generate public opinion thru media and other means for their > >> >> agendas, is my > >> >> perception. > >> >> > >> >> Regards, > >> >> > >> >> Rajen. > >> >> > >> >> On Tue, Apr 21, 2009 at 5:50 PM, Venugopalan K M > >> >> > >> >> wrote: > >> >>> > >> >>> Dear Rajen, > >> >>> > >> >>> By adopting such a position on Brahmanical and Brahmanism, one > >> >>> will stand > >> >>> to lose the very usefulness of this important concept. As you > >> >>> were stating > >> >>> it has less to do with propagating hate than understanding the > >> >>> exceptionally > >> >>> institutionalized and ritualized hate in the social and cultural > >> >>> life of > >> >>> India. > >> >>> This is sure to raise lot of other questions: Why, for example > >> >>> after the > >> >>> happening of the Khairlanji in September 2006 {almost the entire > >> >>> people of a > >> >>> village participate in the act of parading naked,raping, > >> >>> (women),killing and > >> >>> mutilating the bodies of the 4 victims who were members of a > >> >>> dalit family > >> >>> (converted to Budhism) }, the entire media kept silence for about > >> >>> one month? > >> >>> So , an understanding of Brahmanism together with Brahmanical > >> >>> ways of > >> >>> thinking, not only does not talk of Brahmans as persons but > >> >>> more as a > >> >>> collective and typically negative attitude. It is characterized by > >> >>> defending privileges with respect to the ascending order of caste > >> >>> and > >> >>> denying equality; significantly women of all castes are > >> >>> automatically > >> >>> considered inferior to their male counterparts(this is also seen > >> >>> in every > >> >>> other religion; but practices of cruelty to widows ,women not > >> >>> giving birth > >> >>> to to male offsprings, not able to consummate marriage etc,etc > >> >>> are viewed > >> >>> with special contempt in the brahmanical Hinduism).The extremely > >> >>> negative > >> >>> attitude to change or reform is a direct result of a desire to > >> >>> protect the > >> >>> system of privileges to the exclusion of others. These are > >> >>> generally what > >> >>> are considered as traits associated with > >> >>> Brahmanism.Unfortunately, majority > >> >>> of victims of this system of heirarchy are ideologically co-opted > >> >>> to it; > >> >>> they are not expected to doubt the system which is has been > >> >>> taught to them > >> >>> as divinely ordained.They are expected to just obey without > >> >>> grumbles and > >> >>> get better off in the future birth.(Chathrvarnam maya srushtam > >> >>> guna karma > >> >>> vibhagasa- The system has been created by me according to your > >> >>> past karma > >> >>> and your qualities and just do your caste-ordained duties-this is > >> >>> the > >> >>> message of Bhagvan in Gita (Ch IX verse 32 ?..I don't remember it > >> >>> correctly) > >> >>> I'm not suggesting that every person believing in the Hindu > >> >>> scriptures and > >> >>> the Gita would support mass murders and ritualistic killings of > >> >>> dalits as > >> >>> happened in khairlanji..not that the media always will attempt to > >> >>> cover up > >> >>> such incidents.To be certain, in the media controlled by the > >> >>> upper caste > >> >>> Hindus,there is always a tendency to underplay the unpleasant > >> >>> factors > >> >>> related with caste. Gandhi was a great admirer and interpretor of > >> >>> Gita and > >> >>> yet he was assassinated by Godse, who was a fanatic adherent of > >> >>> Brahmanism.But even Gandhi believed in a Ramarajya of his own > >> >>> notion..so are > >> >>> the less enlightened 'Hindu' masses to a greater or lesser > >> >>> degree in > >> >>> denying equality to women and lower castes, the very victims of > >> >>> discriminations included.Then, not to speak of the tendency to > >> >>> resist > >> >>> reservations and to monopolize knowledge and power by a minority. > >> >>> Certainly, > >> >>> the print media dominated by the upper caste plays a significant > >> >>> role in > >> >>> perpetuating the bias against the under privileged.The internet > >> >>> and the > >> >>> electronic media at a more globalized level, are able to > >> >>> challenge this > >> >>> privilege of the upper caste elites in significant ways. > >> >>> Regards, > >> >>> Venu. > >> >>> > >> >>> Regards, > >> >>> Venu. > >> >>> > >> >>> > >> >>> On Tue, Apr 21, 2009 at 4:31 PM, Rajen Uppinangadi > >> >>> wrote: > >> >>>> > >> >>>> Hi, > >> >>>> > >> >>>> Venu, > >> >>>> > >> >>>> List is at times, makes up for the surprise packages for all > >> >>>> with > >> >>>> undertones of "caste" and is casted with caste as theme of > >> >>>> hate, if one > >> >>>> post talks of twice born as brahmins, another talks of brahminical > >> >>>> domination of media, which are again myths to say the least, if > >> >>>> otherwise it > >> >>>> is meant to be "learned" are brahmins, knowledgeable "caste", > >> >>>> then may be > >> >>>> it is acceptable but still as we strive for togetherness above > >> >>>> the caste and > >> >>>> faith conundrums of hate, it is really ammusing that of all you > >> >>>> start with > >> >>>> this theme of hate on the basi of caste.? > >> >>>> > >> >>>> To illustrate, Mr. Kancha Illayya, regular columnist, who > >> >>>> takes up > >> >>>> issues of oppressed is a brahmin by his domination in media with > >> >>>> the issues, > >> >>>> just as sage Vishwamitra who gave the most potent manthra, > >> >>>> Gayathri, is > >> >>>> brahmin by his work, not by birth.? But contrary examples are > >> >>>> also are > >> >>>> visible in society, where by birth some are brahmins, but > >> >>>> behaviour is that > >> >>>> of worse than anyone, like the Dr. Murli manohar Joshi, in his > >> >>>> acts and > >> >>>> utterances.? Again, a journalist and lecturer in Physics., Dr. > >> >>>> Joshi, who > >> >>>> blindly follows the rituals without knowing the reasons behind > >> >>>> such rituals, > >> >>>> is again worse off even as brahmin born, as birth does not give > >> >>>> the right to > >> >>>> oppress others.? For example, the meaning of twice born is that > >> >>>> once the > >> >>>> child is born, at the tender age of around 12 years, he is vowed > >> >>>> to go for > >> >>>> higher studies to Benares, and the trip being in olden days, > >> >>>> hazardous, it > >> >>>> was presumed to be secong birth to undertake such a long journey > >> >>>> for > >> >>>> education, times have changed with chools imparting education at > >> >>>> hop, skip > >> >>>> and jump distances from homes these days.? > >> >>>> > >> >>>> As to media and media houses, most of them are run atleast in > >> >>>> Karnataka > >> >>>> by Idigas, or theeyas, or known in slang as toddy tappers, so > >> >>>> the education > >> >>>> has changed everything, let us come out of this caste fixation, > >> >>>> judge the > >> >>>> works rather than the caste.Visual media channels are again run by > >> >>>> individuals who know how to run the business with trps, news is > >> >>>> not what > >> >>>> viewers want, but what the channels dish out as views in news in > >> >>>> this age of > >> >>>> info-tainment. Otherwise how do you explain the anchors and > >> >>>> their behaviour > >> >>>> with type of presentation of "news" compared to western media, > >> >>>> where anchors > >> >>>> are better dressed with least exposure of made up face and bodies.? > >> >>>> > >> >>>> Regards, > >> >>>> > >> >>>> Rajen. > >> >>>> > >> >>>> > >> >>> > >> >>> > >> >>> > >> >>> -- > >> >>> http://venukm.blogspot.com/ > >> >> > >> >> > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > -- > >> > http://venukm.blogspot.com/ > >> > _________________________________________ > >> > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > >> > Critiques & Collaborations > >> > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > >> > subscribe in the subject header. > >> > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > >> > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> > >> > >> Shuddhabrata Sengupta > >> The Sarai Programme at CSDS > >> Raqs Media Collective > >> shuddha at sarai.net > >> www.sarai.net > >> www.raqsmediacollective.net > >> > >> > >> _________________________________________ > >> reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > >> Critiques & Collaborations > >> To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > >> subscribe in the subject header. > >> To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > >> List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> > >> > > _________________________________________ > > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > > Critiques & Collaborations > > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > subscribe in the subject header. > > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> > > > > > -- > > http://indersalim.livejournal.com > > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > subscribe in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> From A.Khanna at sms.ed.ac.uk Thu Apr 23 21:49:27 2009 From: A.Khanna at sms.ed.ac.uk (A Khanna) Date: Thu, 23 Apr 2009 17:19:27 +0100 Subject: [Reader-list] Brahminical dominence ? In-Reply-To: <6b79f1a70904230846h117157daxa45dbafc72935cf7@mail.gmail.com> References: <61164a90904210401k462156f8u40f90cea6a76c155@mail.gmail.com> <1f9180970904210520i7b46f3der639cf53ef5821d0@mail.gmail.com> <61164a90904212310x745fa773k4094027432b2420c@mail.gmail.com> <1f9180970904220157m18b3e581q41c51526fa881c0c@mail.gmail.com> <71249196-528B-4F3B-8A84-5BD1FC55248B@sarai.net> <6b79f1a70904230730h5c6a8d6bia01f9f820a433b93@mail.gmail.com> <47e122a70904230810x292f746fo298abd9f89ef793f@mail.gmail.com> <6b79f1a70904230846h117157daxa45dbafc72935cf7@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <20090423171927.0ist4z2w1kwwg88c@www.sms.ed.ac.uk> dear all, apologies if this link has already been posted on this list...but in the context of all this talk of Ram Rajya and all... http://www.thirteen.org/sites/reel13/blog/watch-sita-sings-the-blues-online/347/ enjoy akshay Quoting Pawan Durani : > IInder, > My question has still been left unanswered. Let me repeat it again ... > > " Would you dare to use the same language if we quote something from Holy > Quran and refer Prophet Mohammad [ pbuh] . > > Lat time i asked you the same question , i heard you had wet pants. > > Pawan > > > On 4/23/09, Inder Salim wrote: >> >> I see it again through the eyes of a poet, here, valmiki himself, who >> was not a favourite with the ruling elite of Dashratha's Kingdom, >> but was deeply documenting all the happenings inside and outside the >> palace. There was indeed political infighting between different wives >> of the King Dashratha, and that has obviously let his 14 years exile >> in the forests. How come, the pregnant Sita was helped by the poet >> himself. It is all the great compassionate heart that brings out such >> a fantastic human end to an epic, which is full of motherly love. I >> believe, the poet Valmiki was transformed into a pregnant himself, and >> that is why we all the reasons to respect the poet, the great valmiki, >> the untouchable... >> >> Shamuka , say, imaginary character, but untouchable like the poet >> himself, who was killed for no fault of his. And i believe the poet >> has all the rights to express himself though a protagonist or a >> character, >> >> See, Ved Vyas must have been a really romantic poet, and that is why >> there is a long documentation of Krishna's adolescent life with other >> village girls. >> >> so nothing derogatory about writing about it, if one has the sense of >> humor and reasoning intact. >> >> with love and regards >> inder salim >> >> >> On Thu, Apr 23, 2009 at 8:00 PM, Pawan Durani >> wrote: >> > Dear Shuddha, >> > I am just curious . Would you dare to use the same language if we quote >> > something from Holy Quran and refer Prophet Mohammad [ pbuh] . >> > >> > >> > Lean to respect religion and faith. >> > >> > Pawan >> > >> > On Thu, Apr 23, 2009 at 4:33 AM, Shuddhabrata Sengupta < >> shuddha at sarai.net>wrote: >> > >> >> Is this character called Ram or Rama not the same arrogant king who >> >> once killed a scholar called Shambuka >> >> because he was found studying the scriptures. The crime being that >> >> Shambuka was an untouchable and so could not touch the scriptures, >> >> even with his mind. >> >> >> >> Would I want to live in a society where kings slaughter scholars for >> >> the crime of their curiosity? No, I would not. I touch a lot of >> >> stuff with my impure mind, and I want to live safe from stupid kings >> >> who don't know better. I think we ought to be grateful that Ram Rajya >> >> is as yet a distant dream of a lunatic fringe. Lets hope it stays >> >> that way. >> >> >> >> best >> >> >> >> Shuddha >> >> On 22-Apr-09, at 2:27 PM, Venugopalan K M wrote: >> >> >> >> >> "..."As to Rama Rajya, let it be remembered that Rama was kshatriya >> >> > king who administered his subjects wth care and concern for public >> >> > opinion. A doubt about his own wife as expressed by a subject made him >> >> > take the harsh step to send his wife to the forests when she was >> >> > pregnent, to the Ashram. Todays leaders do not care for the public >> >> > opinion as much as they did , but generate public opinion thru media >> >> > and other means for their agendas, is my perception".." >> >> > >> >> > But that is excatly what I would rather take objection to not just >> >> > your concept of 'Rajya' but also its iconic hero, Ram. >> >> > Please excuse me when I say that this vulgar expression of >> >> > "prajahitham"(public opinion) against a poor woman is nothing >> >> > different from its newer versions of "hithams" of Sri Ram Senes! >> >> > >> >> > While it is repugnant to humanity, seen even by the standards of >> >> > ancient monarchy it is much more unacceptable to the standards of >> >> > human rights of our age. It would be a grave instance of atrocity >> >> > perpetrated against women with impunity by the kings in the name of >> >> > 'public opinion'. What sort of king was he to grow suspicious of the >> >> > chastity of his queen lived in forced exile , and yet to take recourse >> >> > to 'public opinion' (most probably manufactured) to justify throwing >> >> > her to fire? What bloody business this poor dhobi family had to >> >> > suspect Sita as a bad woman? In my understanding, this is nothing but >> >> > projection of source of one's own ill feeling to someone else, >> >> > skulking away from taking up the moral responsibility. The kind of >> >> > relationship the king had with the queen, perhaps might have gone to >> >> > deep trouble even otherwise. >> >> > >> >> > Well, this tendency to dupe people by spreading cock and bull stories >> >> > about dharma in an effort to justify the most grotesque violence >> >> > against women and the lower caste people might be part of the essence >> >> > of Ramarajya of the past as well as the present, and this is what many >> >> > people call Brahmanism. Whatever you call this, you are supporting >> >> > this and suggesting that 'Rama Rajya ' would help us cure of our ills. >> >> > The headache is yours and not of others who don't want to believe >> >> > these parables over laden with instruments of moral policing. >> >> > Regards, >> >> > Venu >> >> > . >> >> > >> >> > >> >> > >> >> > 22, 2009 at 11:40 AM, Rajen Uppinangadi >> >> > wrote: >> >> >> Hi, >> >> >> >> >> >> Venu; >> >> >> >> >> >> Such general sweeping comments do not hold water in pluralistic >> >> >> society >> >> >> like this free India. To condemn the "brahminical" thinking itself is >> >> >> absurd, as brahminical way of thinking is for "sarve jana sukhino >> >> >> bhavanthu, >> >> >> in Vasudaiva kutumbakam. >> >> >> >> >> >> While it is true that in every faith, the women are subjugated, >> >> >> denied >> >> >> education and are less privileged with rights and the accent is >> >> >> more on >> >> >> their duties, it is absurd to say that hindu way of life >> >> >> encourages such in >> >> >> equality, for if it was so, gargi and maithreyi would not have had >> >> >> the place >> >> >> in the arguments for the society.The marad killings would not have >> >> >> happened >> >> >> when children and women were massacred in your backyard of Kerala. >> >> >> Shah Bano >> >> >> case would not have been the instance to talk about where >> >> >> livelihood was >> >> >> denied for a woman.Compared to other faiths, hindu way of life has >> >> >> exceptional place for women in modern living, unlike taliban which >> >> >> shoots >> >> >> down the couple if found walking together, the mullas would not >> >> >> proclaim >> >> >> fathwas for the saving of a father for raping his own daughter. With >> >> >> changing times, it is reforms that have taken place in hindu way >> >> >> of life >> >> >> from within religion rather than outside, thanks to persons like Raja >> >> >> Rammohan Roy, Jyothi Phule , and many other reformists, in modern >> >> >> times even >> >> >> Ambedkar has contributed his might to reforms in the way society >> >> >> treats the >> >> >> oppressed. But the political will to reforms in society has to >> >> >> come from >> >> >> within the society as no amounts of laws can change as seen in >> >> >> Dowry act, >> >> >> and the dowry menace is flourishing in all faiths.In fact, the roman >> >> >> catholic weddings in Kerala are notorious for the wedding and >> >> >> lavish dory >> >> >> angle to them, as clergy would bless the couple who part with >> >> >> substantially >> >> >> dirty, obscene amounts for such blessing of an arch bishop, as was >> >> >> told to >> >> >> me by a bishop friend. >> >> >> >> >> >> So, to generalise the menace of oppression only to one way of >> >> >> life, hindu is >> >> >> not only reflects the general trend of condemning whatever is >> >> >> hindu, as >> >> >> brahminical. As to Rama Rajya, let it be remembered that Rama was >> >> >> kshatriya >> >> >> king who administered his subjects wth care and concern for public >> >> >> opinion. >> >> >> A doubt about his own wife as expressed by a subject made him take >> >> >> the harsh >> >> >> step to send his wife to the forests when she was pregnent, to the >> >> >> Ashram. >> >> >> Todays leaders do not care for the public opinion as much as they >> >> >> did , but >> >> >> generate public opinion thru media and other means for their >> >> >> agendas, is my >> >> >> perception. >> >> >> >> >> >> Regards, >> >> >> >> >> >> Rajen. >> >> >> >> >> >> On Tue, Apr 21, 2009 at 5:50 PM, Venugopalan K M >> >> >> >> >> >> wrote: >> >> >>> >> >> >>> Dear Rajen, >> >> >>> >> >> >>> By adopting such a position on Brahmanical and Brahmanism, one >> >> >>> will stand >> >> >>> to lose the very usefulness of this important concept. As you >> >> >>> were stating >> >> >>> it has less to do with propagating hate than understanding the >> >> >>> exceptionally >> >> >>> institutionalized and ritualized hate in the social and cultural >> >> >>> life of >> >> >>> India. >> >> >>> This is sure to raise lot of other questions: Why, for example >> >> >>> after the >> >> >>> happening of the Khairlanji in September 2006 {almost the entire >> >> >>> people of a >> >> >>> village participate in the act of parading naked,raping, >> >> >>> (women),killing and >> >> >>> mutilating the bodies of the 4 victims who were members of a >> >> >>> dalit family >> >> >>> (converted to Budhism) }, the entire media kept silence for about >> >> >>> one month? >> >> >>> So , an understanding of Brahmanism together with Brahmanical >> >> >>> ways of >> >> >>> thinking, not only does not talk of Brahmans as persons but >> >> >>> more as a >> >> >>> collective and typically negative attitude. It is characterized by >> >> >>> defending privileges with respect to the ascending order of caste >> >> >>> and >> >> >>> denying equality; significantly women of all castes are >> >> >>> automatically >> >> >>> considered inferior to their male counterparts(this is also seen >> >> >>> in every >> >> >>> other religion; but practices of cruelty to widows ,women not >> >> >>> giving birth >> >> >>> to to male offsprings, not able to consummate marriage etc,etc >> >> >>> are viewed >> >> >>> with special contempt in the brahmanical Hinduism).The extremely >> >> >>> negative >> >> >>> attitude to change or reform is a direct result of a desire to >> >> >>> protect the >> >> >>> system of privileges to the exclusion of others. These are >> >> >>> generally what >> >> >>> are considered as traits associated with >> >> >>> Brahmanism.Unfortunately, majority >> >> >>> of victims of this system of heirarchy are ideologically co-opted >> >> >>> to it; >> >> >>> they are not expected to doubt the system which is has been >> >> >>> taught to them >> >> >>> as divinely ordained.They are expected to just obey without >> >> >>> grumbles and >> >> >>> get better off in the future birth.(Chathrvarnam maya srushtam >> >> >>> guna karma >> >> >>> vibhagasa- The system has been created by me according to your >> >> >>> past karma >> >> >>> and your qualities and just do your caste-ordained duties-this is >> >> >>> the >> >> >>> message of Bhagvan in Gita (Ch IX verse 32 ?..I don't remember it >> >> >>> correctly) >> >> >>> I'm not suggesting that every person believing in the Hindu >> >> >>> scriptures and >> >> >>> the Gita would support mass murders and ritualistic killings of >> >> >>> dalits as >> >> >>> happened in khairlanji..not that the media always will attempt to >> >> >>> cover up >> >> >>> such incidents.To be certain, in the media controlled by the >> >> >>> upper caste >> >> >>> Hindus,there is always a tendency to underplay the unpleasant >> >> >>> factors >> >> >>> related with caste. Gandhi was a great admirer and interpretor of >> >> >>> Gita and >> >> >>> yet he was assassinated by Godse, who was a fanatic adherent of >> >> >>> Brahmanism.But even Gandhi believed in a Ramarajya of his own >> >> >>> notion..so are >> >> >>> the less enlightened 'Hindu' masses to a greater or lesser >> >> >>> degree in >> >> >>> denying equality to women and lower castes, the very victims of >> >> >>> discriminations included.Then, not to speak of the tendency to >> >> >>> resist >> >> >>> reservations and to monopolize knowledge and power by a minority. >> >> >>> Certainly, >> >> >>> the print media dominated by the upper caste plays a significant >> >> >>> role in >> >> >>> perpetuating the bias against the under privileged.The internet >> >> >>> and the >> >> >>> electronic media at a more globalized level, are able to >> >> >>> challenge this >> >> >>> privilege of the upper caste elites in significant ways. >> >> >>> Regards, >> >> >>> Venu. >> >> >>> >> >> >>> Regards, >> >> >>> Venu. >> >> >>> >> >> >>> >> >> >>> On Tue, Apr 21, 2009 at 4:31 PM, Rajen Uppinangadi >> >> >>> wrote: >> >> >>>> >> >> >>>> Hi, >> >> >>>> >> >> >>>> Venu, >> >> >>>> >> >> >>>> List is at times, makes up for the surprise packages for all >> >> >>>> with >> >> >>>> undertones of "caste" and is casted with caste as theme of >> >> >>>> hate, if one >> >> >>>> post talks of twice born as brahmins, another talks of brahminical >> >> >>>> domination of media, which are again myths to say the least, if >> >> >>>> otherwise it >> >> >>>> is meant to be "learned" are brahmins, knowledgeable "caste", >> >> >>>> then may be >> >> >>>> it is acceptable but still as we strive for togetherness above >> >> >>>> the caste and >> >> >>>> faith conundrums of hate, it is really ammusing that of all you >> >> >>>> start with >> >> >>>> this theme of hate on the basi of caste.? >> >> >>>> >> >> >>>> To illustrate, Mr. Kancha Illayya, regular columnist, who >> >> >>>> takes up >> >> >>>> issues of oppressed is a brahmin by his domination in media with >> >> >>>> the issues, >> >> >>>> just as sage Vishwamitra who gave the most potent manthra, >> >> >>>> Gayathri, is >> >> >>>> brahmin by his work, not by birth.? But contrary examples are >> >> >>>> also are >> >> >>>> visible in society, where by birth some are brahmins, but >> >> >>>> behaviour is that >> >> >>>> of worse than anyone, like the Dr. Murli manohar Joshi, in his >> >> >>>> acts and >> >> >>>> utterances.? Again, a journalist and lecturer in Physics., Dr. >> >> >>>> Joshi, who >> >> >>>> blindly follows the rituals without knowing the reasons behind >> >> >>>> such rituals, >> >> >>>> is again worse off even as brahmin born, as birth does not give >> >> >>>> the right to >> >> >>>> oppress others.? For example, the meaning of twice born is that >> >> >>>> once the >> >> >>>> child is born, at the tender age of around 12 years, he is vowed >> >> >>>> to go for >> >> >>>> higher studies to Benares, and the trip being in olden days, >> >> >>>> hazardous, it >> >> >>>> was presumed to be secong birth to undertake such a long journey >> >> >>>> for >> >> >>>> education, times have changed with chools imparting education at >> >> >>>> hop, skip >> >> >>>> and jump distances from homes these days.? >> >> >>>> >> >> >>>> As to media and media houses, most of them are run atleast in >> >> >>>> Karnataka >> >> >>>> by Idigas, or theeyas, or known in slang as toddy tappers, so >> >> >>>> the education >> >> >>>> has changed everything, let us come out of this caste fixation, >> >> >>>> judge the >> >> >>>> works rather than the caste.Visual media channels are again run by >> >> >>>> individuals who know how to run the business with trps, news is >> >> >>>> not what >> >> >>>> viewers want, but what the channels dish out as views in news in >> >> >>>> this age of >> >> >>>> info-tainment. Otherwise how do you explain the anchors and >> >> >>>> their behaviour >> >> >>>> with type of presentation of "news" compared to western media, >> >> >>>> where anchors >> >> >>>> are better dressed with least exposure of made up face and bodies.? >> >> >>>> >> >> >>>> Regards, >> >> >>>> >> >> >>>> Rajen. >> >> >>>> >> >> >>>> >> >> >>> >> >> >>> >> >> >>> >> >> >>> -- >> >> >>> http://venukm.blogspot.com/ >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> > >> >> > >> >> > >> >> > -- >> >> > http://venukm.blogspot.com/ >> >> > _________________________________________ >> >> > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. >> >> > Critiques & Collaborations >> >> > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with >> >> > subscribe in the subject header. >> >> > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list >> >> > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> >> >> >> >> Shuddhabrata Sengupta >> >> The Sarai Programme at CSDS >> >> Raqs Media Collective >> >> shuddha at sarai.net >> >> www.sarai.net >> >> www.raqsmediacollective.net >> >> >> >> >> >> _________________________________________ >> >> reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. >> >> Critiques & Collaborations >> >> To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with >> >> subscribe in the subject header. >> >> To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list >> >> List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> >> >> >> > _________________________________________ >> > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. >> > Critiques & Collaborations >> > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with >> subscribe in the subject header. >> > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list >> > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> >> >> >> >> >> -- >> >> http://indersalim.livejournal.com >> >> _________________________________________ >> reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. >> Critiques & Collaborations >> To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with >> subscribe in the subject header. >> To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list >> List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > subscribe in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> -- The University of Edinburgh is a charitable body, registered in Scotland, with registration number SC005336. From indersalim at gmail.com Thu Apr 23 21:51:14 2009 From: indersalim at gmail.com (Inder Salim) Date: Thu, 23 Apr 2009 21:51:14 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Brahminical dominence ? In-Reply-To: <6b79f1a70904230846h117157daxa45dbafc72935cf7@mail.gmail.com> References: <61164a90904210401k462156f8u40f90cea6a76c155@mail.gmail.com> <1f9180970904210520i7b46f3der639cf53ef5821d0@mail.gmail.com> <61164a90904212310x745fa773k4094027432b2420c@mail.gmail.com> <1f9180970904220157m18b3e581q41c51526fa881c0c@mail.gmail.com> <71249196-528B-4F3B-8A84-5BD1FC55248B@sarai.net> <6b79f1a70904230730h5c6a8d6bia01f9f820a433b93@mail.gmail.com> <47e122a70904230810x292f746fo298abd9f89ef793f@mail.gmail.com> <6b79f1a70904230846h117157daxa45dbafc72935cf7@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <47e122a70904230921q63d7a289xe342851bbdb2c9cc@mail.gmail.com> the Reality has no magic in it, it never had. human beings think of utopias, or believe there were once, such as Rama Rajas, but it is again psychology, here, i guess our poetic outbursts do occur because of that inner urge to celebrate our existences, and overcome our limitations. but the reality has been always bitter, always against the grain, always hemorrhaging the ethical and moral how we are content if we see others humiliated. Dont we say Ram Ram, i believe there are many types of Ramas but if you want to believe only in one which is as imagined by Valmiki, then our reality is just manufactured by drama, by theatre, and nothing more. We need some unmasking. Beleive me there are thousands of Ramas, and other sounds which dont sound Rama too mean the same. and all are not divine. most of them are earthy About the times of Mohammad there is never any mention of any Rama Rajya like research, That squarely means the times were full of strife and struggle. There were wars between clans and kingdoms. and obviously there must have been innocent killings. what is surprising about it, what i actually want to get out of these reflection to your desire to know is that there is a present, and let us think about what we are, what a true believer of Rama would be like, it must be thumak thumak chalat Ram Chander, ( how gracefully, dancingly Rama moves ) do we need to spread love or hate. come on yaar, it is just very simple, just love the other, and you will be loved, there is no other way, my dear brother, choice is yours, but remember, your choice can affect the other too, i was talking to myself even with love and regards is . Let me repeat it again ... > > " Would you dare to use the same language if we quote something from Holy > Quran and refer Prophet Mohammad [ pbuh] . > > Lat time i asked you the same question , i heard you had wet pants. > > Pawan > > > On 4/23/09, Inder Salim wrote: >> >> I see it again through the eyes of a poet, here, valmiki himself, who >> was not a favourite with the ruling elite of Dashratha's Kingdom, >> but was deeply documenting all the happenings inside and outside the >> palace. There was indeed political infighting between different wives >> of the King Dashratha, and that has obviously let his 14 years exile >> in the forests. How come, the pregnant Sita was helped by the poet >> himself. It is all the great compassionate heart that brings out such >> a fantastic human end to an epic, which is full of motherly love. I >> believe, the poet Valmiki was transformed into a pregnant himself, and >> that is why we all the reasons to respect the poet, the great valmiki, >> the untouchable... >> >> Shamuka , say, imaginary character, but untouchable like the poet >> himself, who was killed for no fault of his. And i believe the poet >> has all the rights to express himself though a protagonist or a >> character, >> >> See, Ved Vyas must have been a really romantic poet, and that is why >> there is a long documentation of Krishna's adolescent life with other >> village girls. >> >> so nothing derogatory about writing about it, if one has the sense of >> humor and reasoning intact. >> >> with love and regards >> inder salim >> >> >> On Thu, Apr 23, 2009 at 8:00 PM, Pawan Durani >> wrote: >> > Dear Shuddha, >> > I am just curious . Would you dare to use the same language if we quote >> > something from Holy Quran and refer Prophet Mohammad [ pbuh] . >> > >> > >> > Lean to respect religion and faith. >> > >> > Pawan >> > >> > On Thu, Apr 23, 2009 at 4:33 AM, Shuddhabrata Sengupta >> > wrote: >> > >> >> Is this character called Ram or Rama not the same arrogant king who >> >> once killed a scholar called Shambuka >> >> because he was found studying the scriptures. The crime being that >> >> Shambuka was an untouchable and so could not touch the scriptures, >> >> even with his mind. >> >> >> >> Would I want to live in a society where kings slaughter scholars for >> >> the crime of their curiosity? No, I would not. I touch a lot of >> >> stuff with my impure mind, and I want to live safe from stupid kings >> >> who don't know better. I think we ought to be grateful that Ram Rajya >> >> is as yet a distant dream of a lunatic fringe. Lets hope it stays >> >> that way. >> >> >> >> best >> >> >> >> Shuddha >> >> On 22-Apr-09, at 2:27 PM, Venugopalan K M wrote: >> >> >> >> >> "..."As to Rama Rajya, let it be remembered that Rama was kshatriya >> >> > king who administered his subjects wth care and concern for public >> >> > opinion. A doubt about his own wife as expressed by a subject made >> >> > him >> >> > take the harsh step to send his wife to the forests when she was >> >> > pregnent, to the Ashram. Todays leaders do not care for the public >> >> > opinion as much as they did , but generate public opinion thru media >> >> > and other means for their agendas, is my perception".." >> >> > >> >> > But that is excatly what I would rather take objection to not just >> >> > your concept of 'Rajya' but also its iconic hero, Ram. >> >> > Please excuse me when I say that this vulgar expression of >> >> > "prajahitham"(public opinion) against a poor woman is nothing >> >> > different from its newer versions of "hithams" of Sri Ram Senes! >> >> > >> >> > While it is repugnant to humanity, seen even by the standards of >> >> > ancient monarchy it is much more unacceptable to the standards of >> >> > human rights of our age. It would be a grave instance of atrocity >> >> > perpetrated against women with impunity by the kings in the name of >> >> > 'public opinion'. What sort of king was he to grow suspicious of the >> >> > chastity of his queen lived in forced exile , and yet to take >> >> > recourse >> >> > to 'public opinion' (most probably manufactured) to justify throwing >> >> > her to fire? What bloody business this poor dhobi family had to >> >> > suspect Sita as a bad woman? In my understanding, this is nothing but >> >> > projection of source of one's own ill feeling to someone else, >> >> > skulking away from taking up the moral responsibility. The kind of >> >> > relationship the king had with the queen, perhaps might have gone to >> >> > deep trouble even otherwise. >> >> > >> >> > Well, this tendency to dupe people by spreading cock and bull stories >> >> > about dharma in an effort to justify the most grotesque violence >> >> > against women and the lower caste people might be part of the essence >> >> > of Ramarajya of the past as well as the present, and this is what >> >> > many >> >> > people call Brahmanism. Whatever you call this, you are supporting >> >> > this and suggesting that 'Rama Rajya ' would help us cure of our >> >> > ills. >> >> > The headache is yours and not of others who don't want to believe >> >> > these parables over laden with instruments of moral policing. >> >> > Regards, >> >> > Venu >> >> > . >> >> > >> >> > >> >> > >> >> > 22, 2009 at 11:40 AM, Rajen Uppinangadi >> >> > wrote: >> >> >> Hi, >> >> >> >> >> >> Venu; >> >> >> >> >> >> Such general sweeping comments do not hold water in pluralistic >> >> >> society >> >> >> like this free India. To condemn the "brahminical" thinking itself >> >> >> is >> >> >> absurd, as brahminical way of thinking is for "sarve jana sukhino >> >> >> bhavanthu, >> >> >> in Vasudaiva kutumbakam. >> >> >> >> >> >> While it is true that in every faith, the women are subjugated, >> >> >> denied >> >> >> education and are less privileged with rights and the accent is >> >> >> more on >> >> >> their duties, it is absurd to say that hindu way of life >> >> >> encourages such in >> >> >> equality, for if it was so, gargi and maithreyi would not have had >> >> >> the place >> >> >> in the arguments for the society.The marad killings would not have >> >> >> happened >> >> >> when children and women were massacred in your backyard of Kerala. >> >> >> Shah Bano >> >> >> case would not have been the instance to talk about where >> >> >> livelihood was >> >> >> denied for a woman.Compared to other faiths, hindu way of life has >> >> >> exceptional place for women in modern living, unlike taliban which >> >> >> shoots >> >> >> down the couple if found walking together, the mullas would not >> >> >> proclaim >> >> >> fathwas for the saving of a father for raping his own daughter. With >> >> >> changing times, it is reforms that have taken place in hindu way >> >> >> of life >> >> >> from within religion rather than outside, thanks to persons like >> >> >> Raja >> >> >> Rammohan Roy, Jyothi Phule , and many other reformists, in modern >> >> >> times even >> >> >> Ambedkar has contributed his might to reforms in the way society >> >> >> treats the >> >> >> oppressed. But the political will to reforms in society has to >> >> >> come from >> >> >> within the society as no amounts of laws can change as seen in >> >> >> Dowry act, >> >> >> and the dowry menace is flourishing in all faiths.In fact, the roman >> >> >> catholic weddings in Kerala are notorious for the wedding and >> >> >> lavish dory >> >> >> angle to them, as clergy would bless the couple who part with >> >> >> substantially >> >> >> dirty, obscene amounts for such blessing of an arch bishop, as was >> >> >> told to >> >> >> me by a bishop friend. >> >> >> >> >> >> So, to generalise the menace of oppression only to one way of >> >> >> life, hindu is >> >> >> not only reflects the general trend of condemning whatever is >> >> >> hindu, as >> >> >> brahminical. As to Rama Rajya, let it be remembered that Rama was >> >> >> kshatriya >> >> >> king who administered his subjects wth care and concern for public >> >> >> opinion. >> >> >> A doubt about his own wife as expressed by a subject made him take >> >> >> the harsh >> >> >> step to send his wife to the forests when she was pregnent, to the >> >> >> Ashram. >> >> >> Todays leaders do not care for the public opinion as much as they >> >> >> did , but >> >> >> generate public opinion thru media and other means for their >> >> >> agendas, is my >> >> >> perception. >> >> >> >> >> >> Regards, >> >> >> >> >> >> Rajen. >> >> >> >> >> >> On Tue, Apr 21, 2009 at 5:50 PM, Venugopalan K M >> >> >> >> >> >> wrote: >> >> >>> >> >> >>> Dear Rajen, >> >> >>> >> >> >>> By adopting such a position on Brahmanical and Brahmanism, one >> >> >>> will stand >> >> >>> to lose the very usefulness of this important concept. As you >> >> >>> were stating >> >> >>> it has less to do with propagating hate than understanding the >> >> >>> exceptionally >> >> >>> institutionalized and ritualized hate in the social and cultural >> >> >>> life of >> >> >>> India. >> >> >>> This is sure to raise lot of other questions: Why, for example >> >> >>> after the >> >> >>> happening of the Khairlanji in September 2006 {almost the entire >> >> >>> people of a >> >> >>> village participate in the act of parading naked,raping, >> >> >>> (women),killing and >> >> >>> mutilating the bodies of the 4 victims who were members of a >> >> >>> dalit family >> >> >>> (converted to Budhism) }, the entire media kept silence for about >> >> >>> one month? >> >> >>> So , an understanding of Brahmanism together with Brahmanical >> >> >>> ways of >> >> >>> thinking, not only does not talk of Brahmans as persons but >> >> >>> more as a >> >> >>> collective and typically negative attitude. It is characterized >> >> >>> by >> >> >>> defending privileges with respect to the ascending order of caste >> >> >>> and >> >> >>> denying equality; significantly women of all castes are >> >> >>> automatically >> >> >>> considered inferior to their male counterparts(this is also seen >> >> >>> in every >> >> >>> other religion; but practices of cruelty to widows ,women not >> >> >>> giving birth >> >> >>> to to male offsprings, not able to consummate marriage etc,etc >> >> >>> are viewed >> >> >>> with special contempt in the brahmanical Hinduism).The extremely >> >> >>> negative >> >> >>> attitude to change or reform is a direct result of a desire to >> >> >>> protect the >> >> >>> system of privileges to the exclusion of others. These are >> >> >>> generally what >> >> >>> are considered as traits associated with >> >> >>> Brahmanism.Unfortunately, majority >> >> >>> of victims of this system of heirarchy are ideologically co-opted >> >> >>> to it; >> >> >>> they are not expected to doubt the system which is has been >> >> >>> taught to them >> >> >>> as divinely ordained.They are expected to just obey without >> >> >>> grumbles and >> >> >>> get better off in the future birth.(Chathrvarnam maya srushtam >> >> >>> guna karma >> >> >>> vibhagasa- The system has been created by me according to your >> >> >>> past karma >> >> >>> and your qualities and just do your caste-ordained duties-this is >> >> >>> the >> >> >>> message of Bhagvan in Gita (Ch IX verse 32 ?..I don't remember it >> >> >>> correctly) >> >> >>> I'm not suggesting that every person believing in the Hindu >> >> >>> scriptures and >> >> >>> the Gita would support mass murders and ritualistic killings of >> >> >>> dalits as >> >> >>> happened in khairlanji..not that the media always will attempt to >> >> >>> cover up >> >> >>> such incidents.To be certain, in the media controlled by the >> >> >>> upper caste >> >> >>> Hindus,there is always a tendency to underplay the unpleasant >> >> >>> factors >> >> >>> related with caste. Gandhi was a great admirer and interpretor of >> >> >>> Gita and >> >> >>> yet he was assassinated by Godse, who was a fanatic adherent of >> >> >>> Brahmanism.But even Gandhi believed in a Ramarajya of his own >> >> >>> notion..so are >> >> >>> the less enlightened 'Hindu' masses to a greater or lesser >> >> >>> degree in >> >> >>> denying equality to women and lower castes, the very victims of >> >> >>> discriminations included.Then, not to speak of the tendency to >> >> >>> resist >> >> >>> reservations and to monopolize knowledge and power by a minority. >> >> >>> Certainly, >> >> >>> the print media dominated by the upper caste plays a significant >> >> >>> role in >> >> >>> perpetuating the bias against the under privileged.The internet >> >> >>> and the >> >> >>> electronic media at a more globalized level, are able to >> >> >>> challenge this >> >> >>> privilege of the upper caste elites in significant ways. >> >> >>> Regards, >> >> >>> Venu. >> >> >>> >> >> >>> Regards, >> >> >>> Venu. >> >> >>> >> >> >>> >> >> >>> On Tue, Apr 21, 2009 at 4:31 PM, Rajen Uppinangadi >> >> >>> wrote: >> >> >>>> >> >> >>>> Hi, >> >> >>>> >> >> >>>> Venu, >> >> >>>> >> >> >>>> List is at times, makes up for the surprise packages for all >> >> >>>> with >> >> >>>> undertones of "caste" and is casted with caste as theme of >> >> >>>> hate, if one >> >> >>>> post talks of twice born as brahmins, another talks of brahminical >> >> >>>> domination of media, which are again myths to say the least, if >> >> >>>> otherwise it >> >> >>>> is meant to be "learned" are brahmins, knowledgeable "caste", >> >> >>>> then may be >> >> >>>> it is acceptable but still as we strive for togetherness above >> >> >>>> the caste and >> >> >>>> faith conundrums of hate, it is really ammusing that of all you >> >> >>>> start with >> >> >>>> this theme of hate on the basi of caste.? >> >> >>>> >> >> >>>> To illustrate, Mr. Kancha Illayya, regular columnist, who >> >> >>>> takes up >> >> >>>> issues of oppressed is a brahmin by his domination in media with >> >> >>>> the issues, >> >> >>>> just as sage Vishwamitra who gave the most potent manthra, >> >> >>>> Gayathri, is >> >> >>>> brahmin by his work, not by birth.? But contrary examples are >> >> >>>> also are >> >> >>>> visible in society, where by birth some are brahmins, but >> >> >>>> behaviour is that >> >> >>>> of worse than anyone, like the Dr. Murli manohar Joshi, in his >> >> >>>> acts and >> >> >>>> utterances.? Again, a journalist and lecturer in Physics., Dr. >> >> >>>> Joshi, who >> >> >>>> blindly follows the rituals without knowing the reasons behind >> >> >>>> such rituals, >> >> >>>> is again worse off even as brahmin born, as birth does not give >> >> >>>> the right to >> >> >>>> oppress others.? For example, the meaning of twice born is that >> >> >>>> once the >> >> >>>> child is born, at the tender age of around 12 years, he is vowed >> >> >>>> to go for >> >> >>>> higher studies to Benares, and the trip being in olden days, >> >> >>>> hazardous, it >> >> >>>> was presumed to be secong birth to undertake such a long journey >> >> >>>> for >> >> >>>> education, times have changed with chools imparting education at >> >> >>>> hop, skip >> >> >>>> and jump distances from homes these days.? >> >> >>>> >> >> >>>> As to media and media houses, most of them are run atleast in >> >> >>>> Karnataka >> >> >>>> by Idigas, or theeyas, or known in slang as toddy tappers, so >> >> >>>> the education >> >> >>>> has changed everything, let us come out of this caste fixation, >> >> >>>> judge the >> >> >>>> works rather than the caste.Visual media channels are again run by >> >> >>>> individuals who know how to run the business with trps, news is >> >> >>>> not what >> >> >>>> viewers want, but what the channels dish out as views in news in >> >> >>>> this age of >> >> >>>> info-tainment. Otherwise how do you explain the anchors and >> >> >>>> their behaviour >> >> >>>> with type of presentation of "news" compared to western media, >> >> >>>> where anchors >> >> >>>> are better dressed with least exposure of made up face and >> >> >>>> bodies.? >> >> >>>> >> >> >>>> Regards, >> >> >>>> >> >> >>>> Rajen. >> >> >>>> >> >> >>>> >> >> >>> >> >> >>> >> >> >>> >> >> >>> -- >> >> >>> http://venukm.blogspot.com/ >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> > >> >> > >> >> > >> >> > -- >> >> > http://venukm.blogspot.com/ >> >> > _________________________________________ >> >> > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. >> >> > Critiques & Collaborations >> >> > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with >> >> > subscribe in the subject header. >> >> > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list >> >> > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> >> >> >> >> Shuddhabrata Sengupta >> >> The Sarai Programme at CSDS >> >> Raqs Media Collective >> >> shuddha at sarai.net >> >> www.sarai.net >> >> www.raqsmediacollective.net >> >> >> >> >> >> _________________________________________ >> >> reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. >> >> Critiques & Collaborations >> >> To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with >> >> subscribe in the subject header. >> >> To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list >> >> List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> >> >> >> > _________________________________________ >> > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. >> > Critiques & Collaborations >> > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with >> > subscribe in the subject header. >> > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list >> > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> >> >> >> >> >> -- >> >> http://indersalim.livejournal.com >> >> _________________________________________ >> reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. >> Critiques & Collaborations >> To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with >> subscribe in the subject header. >> To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list >> List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> > -- http://indersalim.livejournal.com From akshaym at gmail.com Thu Apr 23 21:51:58 2009 From: akshaym at gmail.com (Akshay) Date: Thu, 23 Apr 2009 21:51:58 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] [Trivial Matters] Curfew and the Night, Imphal Manipur In-Reply-To: <1240064297922.81944afa-833b-4484-95c2-312d373e8301@google.com> References: <1240064297922.81944afa-833b-4484-95c2-312d373e8301@google.com> Message-ID: <1932e9470904230921l57e1f347x53d7d227c36c01f2@mail.gmail.com> [image: Imphal Encounter] In the heat of day, all is silent in Imphal, except for the soldiers beating their sticks against the hard pavement and the dogs barking in distant neighborhoods. I had arrived a few hours earlier, unaware of the city’s uncertain state of siege, traveling past alternating police checkpoints and local highway blockades. At the series of police checkpoints my belongings were scrutinized, papers examined, and bribes paid. The local blockades were manned by angry Meithei women and children pulling on makeshift rope past burning rubber tires, as much forms of extortion as they were forms of popular protest. The bundle of ten rupee notes in my pocket helped me negotiate these barriers with more ease then most. Manipur was in a state of clampdown, the consequence of the kidnapping and brutal murder of a young dedicated officer of the Manipur Civil Service, Dr. Thingnam Kishan. His body was found along with his driver and guard, hacked to death, strewn under a bridge on one of the state’s highways on February 13. Yet another death in the face of the terror Manipur faces from the armed forces and from scores of militant groups, hardly any of it is reported except by their local media. The insurgents have been in the region in one from or another since the birth of the country. Manipur is engulfed in a civil conflict with an almost unending stamina for death. The only difference being that more groups have mushroomed, crystallizing around the different ethnic and tribal identities. Each of these groups has their own skewed separatist agenda. What they share is a deep distrust of Indian soldiers and a love for extortion. India has pumped in almost 55,000 soldiers and loads of money in this more than half-century of conflict but neither seems to have staunched political grievances or every day misery. [image: Imphal Encounter] I walk over to the window and took pictures of the scene beyond the heavy grill. The suspicious black box in my possession catches the eyes of one of the soldiers, in a sudden jerk he dismounts his gun off this shoulder and points its upwards; I drop my camera and protrude my hands through the metal outwards to make my intentions clearer – my first exchange of fear. If you have lived in Imphal long enough you will find that the life of its 3 lakh inhabitants revolves around perennial cycles of general strikes and curfew. In fact Imphal and many parts of this north east corner of India have remained in a permanent state of partial curfew for decades, a reality incomprehensible to those of us who live in metropolitan India. [image: The Elephant] Between 5am to 5pm, the city swings into action. Everyone is desperately trying to get a share of the cash, before it runs out. Even the most routine of transactions like buying vegetables or sugar takes on an air of siege. Come evening the streets fill with people making a hasty retreat home - as the last of Imphal throng outside ATMs before the shopkeepers down their shutters and police loudspeakers announce the coming of yet another curfew. A large photograph of a young woman - her nose covered by a medical swatch making way for a IV tube, stoic and dogged, her eyes peer down at you – dominates a makeshift bamboo hut in New Checkon in Imphal East. This is a picture of Irom Sharmila, she has not eaten for nearly 9 years now – for this she has been locked up by government and force-fed by tubes. She launched into this almost decade long fast unto death, demanding the removal of the repressive Armed Forces Special Powers Act(AFSPA) after she witnessed the killing of 10 innocent civilians allegedly at the hands the Assam Rifles in November of 2000. Their killings like many others Manipur has witnessed came under the aegis of a law that gives the Indian army extraordinary powers to quash ethnic insurgencies. In the hut Ima K Taruni and the dozen other Meira Paibi, the torch bearers are angry as they sit in a relay hunger strike for Sharmila. “Enough is enough, we will not vote until AFSPA is revoked. What kind of democracy is this were members of our own army kill us with impunity." [image: Meira Paibi] [Ima K Taruni and the dozen other Meira Paibi, the torch bearers] The smog gently floats over the valley in a vacuum left by the pause of violence; in the days that follow it is the Yaoshang festival. A quiet before the storm only to be pierced by gun fire. In the streets people scatter, shop shutters come rumbling down and all is once more quiet in anticipation of the next rattle of bullets. A photographer’s job is filled with fool’s errands; we chase gunfire instead of escaping it. Meters away in Imphal’s Kunjabi lekhai I find them breathing their last-two young men murdered and branded as insurgents in yet another encounter. A 9mm pistol, a grenade and some documents enough proof. People watch as their bodies are propped and put onto the back of a pickup truck by a lanky policeman. In Manipur death itself has become a spectacle. Originally published in the Hindustan Times, April 18th -- Posted By Akshay to Trivial Matterson 4/18/2009 07:36:00 PM -- Akshay Mahajan +919833230562 http://trivialmatters.blogspot.com http://www.flickr.com/photos/lecercle/ From mahmood.farooqui at gmail.com Thu Apr 23 22:08:56 2009 From: mahmood.farooqui at gmail.com (mahmood farooqui) Date: Thu, 23 Apr 2009 22:08:56 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Fwd: help!!! In-Reply-To: <439744010904230731q286cfdffg7d9ef98203be572e@mail.gmail.com> References: <439744010904220122j20187142ic4927035dee427f7@mail.gmail.com> <439744010904230731q286cfdffg7d9ef98203be572e@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: ---------- Forwarded message ---------- From: Idrees Kanth Date: 2009/4/23 Subject: help!!! To: ntui at vsnl.net, mahmood.farooqui at gmail.com, bidwai at bol.net.in, psingh at brookes.ac.uk, moggallan at gmail.com > Dear All, > > > We want to bring it to your notice the constant physical and psychological > violence that many of us > muslim students have been experiencing at Jawaharlal Nehru University, New > Delhi over the last two > years. Recently on On 17th March a Muslim student *Masihullah Khan*[ M.A. > French] was brutally > assaulted by a group of *ABVP/RSS* students inside Lohit hostel in full > view of the Senior Waden and > fellow residents. Despite that the administration did not deem it be a > serious offence and let them off > with very mild punishments, which were then revoked. All that was left of > the punishment was hostel > transfers, and even those were not carried out. > > Exactly a month later on 17th April *the same group of students*assualted me > *[Idrees* *Kanth] *badly > and further threatened me* *of dire consequences. Even after this, the > administration on one ground or > the other ['humanitarian considerations' is what the adminstration said] > has been protecting them making > us feel not only very vulnerable but traumatised. Such an attitude of the > administration has only > emboldened these hooligans who are now openly targeting us. > > It is a common knowledge among students in JNU that the administration is > completely right wing. In > the past if by any chance a *Dalit* or a* Muslim student* was > involved even in a minor act of indiscipline, > the student was severly punished and even rusticated. > > We therefore, appeal to you all to build an opinion on such a stark and > open communal policy of the JNU > adminsitration and the growing communal violence on the campus. We are > being constantly threatened, > intimidated, abused, physically beaten etc etc. We feel completely helpless > !!! > > Thanks > Idrees Kanth > > > > From 2tahamehmood at googlemail.com Fri Apr 24 00:58:03 2009 From: 2tahamehmood at googlemail.com (Taha Mehmood) Date: Thu, 23 Apr 2009 20:28:03 +0100 Subject: [Reader-list] Fwd: Myth Called the 'Indian Muslim' In-Reply-To: <1f9180970904211137h1e877831v7c0db815b87fc39f@mail.gmail.com> References: <65be9bf40904201628o3573046ai285b59272f3910c8@mail.gmail.com> <1f9180970904202100m2a329dc8i8718417566b97e2a@mail.gmail.com> <1f9180970904202101y2fccb1b0u3d1a40ebd9786974@mail.gmail.com> <1f9180970904202121m5df66da8ka02664347081bc7d@mail.gmail.com> <20090421100250.BQT58570@expms6.cites.uiuc.edu> <1f9180970904211137h1e877831v7c0db815b87fc39f@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <65be9bf40904231228p2a2e51f1n6403cc6e79d010fe@mail.gmail.com> Dear All, Dear Sukla and Dear Venu, Thank you for your posts. -Sukla. I do not think that I questioned the intent of Sujovit. I am sure he must have the best of intentions in mind while writing this story. The point of the post was more on lines of representation and portrayal, a 'Covering Islam' argument, if you may, tinged with South Asian context. Particularly in this regard, my question was, while reporting or representing- How do our learned journalists justify the use of hackneyed cliches like 'Islamic Community' , 'Muslim world' and 'Muslim vote'? Why is it that a distinction is not made when such a distinction exists in everyday practice of 'Islam'? When I am sure members of the same tribe, who are in the business of representation, will be quick to decry a similarly overarching term like 'Hindutva' and churn out acres of pulp to signify not only, the various historical, cultural or religious distinctions but also variances in everyday practice. -Venu I do not disagree with you Venu, but at the same time, I think, on a platform like this, we can at least talk about the ludicrousness of such portrayals. The model remains the same in case of reporting not only about Islam per se but about any social grouping which is regarded as 'the other'. First there is an incorrect representation. Which either consists of gross generalizations or distortions or hyped up imaginations. Which is followed by constant repetition and looping wherein certain words are used again and again and again and again so much so that after a lapse of time, they acquire an aura of 'normality'. Which then becomes a marker to view and judge an entire community. In case of 'Islam' in a 'South Asian' context, I think the two most abused words, which immediately come to my mind, are- Jihad and Taliban. And by that, of course, I am not just referring to that salwar brigade of breaded lunatics, rather, my ishara is also on how the meaning of these words changed, in popularly ascribed and prescribed terms, in last one hundred and eighty years. Regards Taha From shuddha at sarai.net Fri Apr 24 04:36:14 2009 From: shuddha at sarai.net (Shuddhabrata Sengupta) Date: Fri, 24 Apr 2009 04:36:14 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Brahminical dominence ? In-Reply-To: <6b79f1a70904230846h117157daxa45dbafc72935cf7@mail.gmail.com> References: <61164a90904210401k462156f8u40f90cea6a76c155@mail.gmail.com> <1f9180970904210520i7b46f3der639cf53ef5821d0@mail.gmail.com> <61164a90904212310x745fa773k4094027432b2420c@mail.gmail.com> <1f9180970904220157m18b3e581q41c51526fa881c0c@mail.gmail.com> <71249196-528B-4F3B-8A84-5BD1FC55248B@sarai.net> <6b79f1a70904230730h5c6a8d6bia01f9f820a433b93@mail.gmail.com> <47e122a70904230810x292f746fo298abd9f89ef793f@mail.gmail.com> <6b79f1a70904230846h117157daxa45dbafc72935cf7@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: Pawan, Here is my attempt at a straightforward (even if slightly lengthy) answer to your question. The prophet known as Muhammad to his followers is reported (according to the ahadith and seerat-bigoraphical accounts) to have condoned, if not endorsed the assasination of at least seven satirical poets, namely, Al Nadr bin al Harith, Uqba bin Abu Muayt, Asma bint Marwan, Abu Afak, Kab bin al Ashraf, Ibn Sunayna, an anonymous Bedouin, a singing girl belonging to Abdullah bin Katal. These are cases that may be seen as being roughly comparable to the murder of Shambuk for his act of speaking/ reading the vedas, at the orders of the character called Rama. Both are narratives of acts of violence consequent upon acts of reading/speaking something deemed offensive. They may be seen as attacks on the freedom of speech, and justly so. Of these seven, reports of the murders of poets and performers, reliable textual evidence (as in a hadith that is considered to be reliable in terms of its isnad or transmission) can be found for just one, that is for the murder of Kab bin al Ashraf. The others have numerous problems of exegetical authenticity and verifiability, so let us stick to what can be said with a certain degree of certainty. Let us suppose that the man called Kab bin al-Ashraf was indeed killed for his speech. If that is the case, I would have no hesitation in saying that the conduct of Muhammad demonstrates arrogance unbecoming (in this instance) of a prophet committed to a vision of life based on peace and compassion. I would have no hesitation in saying that exactly as in Rama's execution of Shambuka, such an act would be, in my opinion, best described as - stupid, arrogant and unwise. However, before jumping to conclusions, let us remember that the quran speaks in more than one voice with regard to contempt, and about the efforts by satirical poets to ridicule the prophet with their utterances. Allah explicitly commands Muhammad to be patient towards those who speak ill of him. In verse 28 for instance, we hear the following, and I quote : "When (the righteous) hear vain talk, they withdraw from it saying: 'Our deeds are for us and yours for you; peace be on to you. We do not desire the way of the ignorant'. . .O Prophet (Muhammad), you cannot give guidance to whom you wish, it is God Who gives guidance to whom He pleases, and He is quite aware of those who are guided." (28:55-56) Muslims are also taught the tradition of the woman who would regularly throw trash on the prophet as he walked down a particular path.The prophet never responded in kind to the woman's abuse. Instead, when she one day failed to attack him, he went to her home to inquire about her condition and good health. So there are as many reliable accounts of Muhammad's forgiving nature as there are of his vengeful, aggressive nature. A lot depends on what you choose to believe. I am not a believer, so I do not need to make this choice. I am just as willing to say that if the stories about vengefulness are taken at their face value, then the conduct of the prophet can best be described as unbecoming and arrogant, just as arrogant and unwise or stupid as Rama. If, on the other hand, the stories about compassion, liberality and forgiveness are to be believed, then, the prophet can be seen as an exemplar of how a person should deal with hostility. Whatever be the case, I do not think that the lives and reputations of interesting and exemplary men and women (and I would count Muhammad as one such person, even though I am not a believer) are diminished by the retention of our ability to be critical of them. As far as I know, Muhammad is not worshipped in the Islamicate tradition as a deity. He is neither god, nor the son of god. he is merely god's messenger. His actions are shown to be that of a mortal, (not divine) being. They are exemplary, but in the end, fallible, even if he is seen and portrayed as the best of men. He doubts himself, his followers are reported on occasion as disagreeing with him. There is debate, disagreement, discussion and dialogue. As far as I know, the Hindu traditions that encode the worship of Rama the king of Ayodhya also deify him. In their eyes, he is god. And god can do no wrong. Rama's occasional deviance from justice and ethics (such as in the case of the slaying of Bali by deception) are in fact pointed out as instances of divine exception, of the fact that one cannot judge gods and men by the same ethical criteria. God is not seen as capable of making mistakes and errors of judgement. Otherwise he would not be divine. If Rama made mistakes he could not be divine. If he is divine, he cannot make mistakes. Since I am not a believer in his divinity. I am free to see that he makes mistakes. If you are a believer in his divinity, then that choice is not available to you. And so, I can see that if Muhammad endorsed the assasination of Kab, then that was clearly a mistake, an error born of arrogance, maybe even stupidity. The difference is, In the case of Muhammad, I do not have to be a hypothetical unbeliever to see this. In my opinion, It is perfectly possible to be a believing Muslim and to be critical (notwithstanding what fundamentalists and idiotic zealots may tell you) of some of Muhammad's actions, just as it is possible to be appreciative of the vast majority of them. Muhammad himself is reported to be admitting to the fact that occasionally he is in error. This is pointed out to underscore the fact that he is mortal, not divine. His mortality and his imperfections (arising from his humanity) are central to the Islamic faith. To deny him his imperfection would be to attribute divinity to him, and nothing can be closer to heresy than to attribute divinity to a human being, no matter how expemplary that human being is or can be. I hope you have an answer to your question by now. best Shuddha > IInder, > My question has still been left unanswered. Let me repeat it again ... > > " Would you dare to use the same language if we quote something > from Holy > Quran and refer Prophet Mohammad [ pbuh] . > > Lat time i asked you the same question , i heard you had wet pants. > > Pawan > > > On 4/23/09, Inder Salim wrote: >> >> I see it again through the eyes of a poet, here, valmiki himself, who >> was not a favourite with the ruling elite of Dashratha's Kingdom, >> but was deeply documenting all the happenings inside and outside the >> palace. There was indeed political infighting between different wives >> of the King Dashratha, and that has obviously let his 14 years exile >> in the forests. How come, the pregnant Sita was helped by the poet >> himself. It is all the great compassionate heart that brings out such >> a fantastic human end to an epic, which is full of motherly love. I >> believe, the poet Valmiki was transformed into a pregnant himself, >> and >> that is why we all the reasons to respect the poet, the great >> valmiki, >> the untouchable... >> >> Shamuka , say, imaginary character, but untouchable like the poet >> himself, who was killed for no fault of his. And i believe the poet >> has all the rights to express himself though a protagonist or a >> character, >> >> See, Ved Vyas must have been a really romantic poet, and that is why >> there is a long documentation of Krishna's adolescent life with other >> village girls. >> >> so nothing derogatory about writing about it, if one has the sense of >> humor and reasoning intact. >> >> with love and regards >> inder salim >> >> >> On Thu, Apr 23, 2009 at 8:00 PM, Pawan Durani >> >> wrote: >>> Dear Shuddha, >>> I am just curious . Would you dare to use the same language if we >>> quote >>> something from Holy Quran and refer Prophet Mohammad [ pbuh] . >>> >>> >>> Lean to respect religion and faith. >>> >>> Pawan >>> >>> On Thu, Apr 23, 2009 at 4:33 AM, Shuddhabrata Sengupta < >> shuddha at sarai.net>wrote: >>> >>>> Is this character called Ram or Rama not the same arrogant king who >>>> once killed a scholar called Shambuka >>>> because he was found studying the scriptures. The crime being that >>>> Shambuka was an untouchable and so could not touch the scriptures, >>>> even with his mind. >>>> >>>> Would I want to live in a society where kings slaughter scholars >>>> for >>>> the crime of their curiosity? No, I would not. I touch a lot of >>>> stuff with my impure mind, and I want to live safe from stupid >>>> kings >>>> who don't know better. I think we ought to be grateful that Ram >>>> Rajya >>>> is as yet a distant dream of a lunatic fringe. Lets hope it stays >>>> that way. >>>> >>>> best >>>> >>>> Shuddha >>>> On 22-Apr-09, at 2:27 PM, Venugopalan K M wrote: >>>> >>>>>> "..."As to Rama Rajya, let it be remembered that Rama was >>>>>> kshatriya >>>>> king who administered his subjects wth care and concern for public >>>>> opinion. A doubt about his own wife as expressed by a subject >>>>> made him >>>>> take the harsh step to send his wife to the forests when she was >>>>> pregnent, to the Ashram. Todays leaders do not care for the public >>>>> opinion as much as they did , but generate public opinion thru >>>>> media >>>>> and other means for their agendas, is my perception".." >>>>> >>>>> But that is excatly what I would rather take objection to not just >>>>> your concept of 'Rajya' but also its iconic hero, Ram. >>>>> Please excuse me when I say that this vulgar expression of >>>>> "prajahitham"(public opinion) against a poor woman is nothing >>>>> different from its newer versions of "hithams" of Sri Ram Senes! >>>>> >>>>> While it is repugnant to humanity, seen even by the standards of >>>>> ancient monarchy it is much more unacceptable to the standards of >>>>> human rights of our age. It would be a grave instance of atrocity >>>>> perpetrated against women with impunity by the kings in the >>>>> name of >>>>> 'public opinion'. What sort of king was he to grow suspicious >>>>> of the >>>>> chastity of his queen lived in forced exile , and yet to take >>>>> recourse >>>>> to 'public opinion' (most probably manufactured) to justify >>>>> throwing >>>>> her to fire? What bloody business this poor dhobi family had to >>>>> suspect Sita as a bad woman? In my understanding, this is >>>>> nothing but >>>>> projection of source of one's own ill feeling to someone else, >>>>> skulking away from taking up the moral responsibility. The >>>>> kind of >>>>> relationship the king had with the queen, perhaps might have >>>>> gone to >>>>> deep trouble even otherwise. >>>>> >>>>> Well, this tendency to dupe people by spreading cock and bull >>>>> stories >>>>> about dharma in an effort to justify the most grotesque violence >>>>> against women and the lower caste people might be part of the >>>>> essence >>>>> of Ramarajya of the past as well as the present, and this is >>>>> what many >>>>> people call Brahmanism. Whatever you call this, you are >>>>> supporting >>>>> this and suggesting that 'Rama Rajya ' would help us cure of >>>>> our ills. >>>>> The headache is yours and not of others who don't want to believe >>>>> these parables over laden with instruments of moral policing. >>>>> Regards, >>>>> Venu >>>>> . >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> 22, 2009 at 11:40 AM, Rajen Uppinangadi >>>>> wrote: >>>>>> Hi, >>>>>> >>>>>> Venu; >>>>>> >>>>>> Such general sweeping comments do not hold water in pluralistic >>>>>> society >>>>>> like this free India. To condemn the "brahminical" thinking >>>>>> itself is >>>>>> absurd, as brahminical way of thinking is for "sarve jana sukhino >>>>>> bhavanthu, >>>>>> in Vasudaiva kutumbakam. >>>>>> >>>>>> While it is true that in every faith, the women are subjugated, >>>>>> denied >>>>>> education and are less privileged with rights and the accent is >>>>>> more on >>>>>> their duties, it is absurd to say that hindu way of life >>>>>> encourages such in >>>>>> equality, for if it was so, gargi and maithreyi would not have >>>>>> had >>>>>> the place >>>>>> in the arguments for the society.The marad killings would not >>>>>> have >>>>>> happened >>>>>> when children and women were massacred in your backyard of >>>>>> Kerala. >>>>>> Shah Bano >>>>>> case would not have been the instance to talk about where >>>>>> livelihood was >>>>>> denied for a woman.Compared to other faiths, hindu way of life >>>>>> has >>>>>> exceptional place for women in modern living, unlike taliban >>>>>> which >>>>>> shoots >>>>>> down the couple if found walking together, the mullas would not >>>>>> proclaim >>>>>> fathwas for the saving of a father for raping his own >>>>>> daughter. With >>>>>> changing times, it is reforms that have taken place in hindu way >>>>>> of life >>>>>> from within religion rather than outside, thanks to persons >>>>>> like Raja >>>>>> Rammohan Roy, Jyothi Phule , and many other reformists, in modern >>>>>> times even >>>>>> Ambedkar has contributed his might to reforms in the way society >>>>>> treats the >>>>>> oppressed. But the political will to reforms in society has to >>>>>> come from >>>>>> within the society as no amounts of laws can change as seen in >>>>>> Dowry act, >>>>>> and the dowry menace is flourishing in all faiths.In fact, the >>>>>> roman >>>>>> catholic weddings in Kerala are notorious for the wedding and >>>>>> lavish dory >>>>>> angle to them, as clergy would bless the couple who part with >>>>>> substantially >>>>>> dirty, obscene amounts for such blessing of an arch bishop, as >>>>>> was >>>>>> told to >>>>>> me by a bishop friend. >>>>>> >>>>>> So, to generalise the menace of oppression only to one way of >>>>>> life, hindu is >>>>>> not only reflects the general trend of condemning whatever is >>>>>> hindu, as >>>>>> brahminical. As to Rama Rajya, let it be remembered that Rama was >>>>>> kshatriya >>>>>> king who administered his subjects wth care and concern for >>>>>> public >>>>>> opinion. >>>>>> A doubt about his own wife as expressed by a subject made him >>>>>> take >>>>>> the harsh >>>>>> step to send his wife to the forests when she was pregnent, to >>>>>> the >>>>>> Ashram. >>>>>> Todays leaders do not care for the public opinion as much as they >>>>>> did , but >>>>>> generate public opinion thru media and other means for their >>>>>> agendas, is my >>>>>> perception. >>>>>> >>>>>> Regards, >>>>>> >>>>>> Rajen. >>>>>> >>>>>> On Tue, Apr 21, 2009 at 5:50 PM, Venugopalan K M >>>>>> >>>>>> wrote: >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Dear Rajen, >>>>>>> >>>>>>> By adopting such a position on Brahmanical and Brahmanism, one >>>>>>> will stand >>>>>>> to lose the very usefulness of this important concept. As you >>>>>>> were stating >>>>>>> it has less to do with propagating hate than understanding the >>>>>>> exceptionally >>>>>>> institutionalized and ritualized hate in the social and >>>>>>> cultural >>>>>>> life of >>>>>>> India. >>>>>>> This is sure to raise lot of other questions: Why, for example >>>>>>> after the >>>>>>> happening of the Khairlanji in September 2006 {almost the entire >>>>>>> people of a >>>>>>> village participate in the act of parading naked,raping, >>>>>>> (women),killing and >>>>>>> mutilating the bodies of the 4 victims who were members of a >>>>>>> dalit family >>>>>>> (converted to Budhism) }, the entire media kept silence for >>>>>>> about >>>>>>> one month? >>>>>>> So , an understanding of Brahmanism together with Brahmanical >>>>>>> ways of >>>>>>> thinking, not only does not talk of Brahmans as persons but >>>>>>> more as a >>>>>>> collective and typically negative attitude. It is >>>>>>> characterized by >>>>>>> defending privileges with respect to the ascending order of >>>>>>> caste >>>>>>> and >>>>>>> denying equality; significantly women of all castes are >>>>>>> automatically >>>>>>> considered inferior to their male counterparts(this is also seen >>>>>>> in every >>>>>>> other religion; but practices of cruelty to widows ,women not >>>>>>> giving birth >>>>>>> to to male offsprings, not able to consummate marriage etc,etc >>>>>>> are viewed >>>>>>> with special contempt in the brahmanical Hinduism).The extremely >>>>>>> negative >>>>>>> attitude to change or reform is a direct result of a desire to >>>>>>> protect the >>>>>>> system of privileges to the exclusion of others. These are >>>>>>> generally what >>>>>>> are considered as traits associated with >>>>>>> Brahmanism.Unfortunately, majority >>>>>>> of victims of this system of heirarchy are ideologically co- >>>>>>> opted >>>>>>> to it; >>>>>>> they are not expected to doubt the system which is has been >>>>>>> taught to them >>>>>>> as divinely ordained.They are expected to just obey without >>>>>>> grumbles and >>>>>>> get better off in the future birth.(Chathrvarnam maya srushtam >>>>>>> guna karma >>>>>>> vibhagasa- The system has been created by me according to your >>>>>>> past karma >>>>>>> and your qualities and just do your caste-ordained duties- >>>>>>> this is >>>>>>> the >>>>>>> message of Bhagvan in Gita (Ch IX verse 32 ?..I don't >>>>>>> remember it >>>>>>> correctly) >>>>>>> I'm not suggesting that every person believing in the Hindu >>>>>>> scriptures and >>>>>>> the Gita would support mass murders and ritualistic killings of >>>>>>> dalits as >>>>>>> happened in khairlanji..not that the media always will >>>>>>> attempt to >>>>>>> cover up >>>>>>> such incidents.To be certain, in the media controlled by the >>>>>>> upper caste >>>>>>> Hindus,there is always a tendency to underplay the unpleasant >>>>>>> factors >>>>>>> related with caste. Gandhi was a great admirer and >>>>>>> interpretor of >>>>>>> Gita and >>>>>>> yet he was assassinated by Godse, who was a fanatic adherent of >>>>>>> Brahmanism.But even Gandhi believed in a Ramarajya of his own >>>>>>> notion..so are >>>>>>> the less enlightened 'Hindu' masses to a greater or lesser >>>>>>> degree in >>>>>>> denying equality to women and lower castes, the very victims of >>>>>>> discriminations included.Then, not to speak of the tendency to >>>>>>> resist >>>>>>> reservations and to monopolize knowledge and power by a >>>>>>> minority. >>>>>>> Certainly, >>>>>>> the print media dominated by the upper caste plays a significant >>>>>>> role in >>>>>>> perpetuating the bias against the under privileged.The internet >>>>>>> and the >>>>>>> electronic media at a more globalized level, are able to >>>>>>> challenge this >>>>>>> privilege of the upper caste elites in significant ways. >>>>>>> Regards, >>>>>>> Venu. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Regards, >>>>>>> Venu. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> On Tue, Apr 21, 2009 at 4:31 PM, Rajen Uppinangadi >>>>>>> wrote: >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Hi, >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Venu, >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> List is at times, makes up for the surprise packages for >>>>>>>> all >>>>>>>> with >>>>>>>> undertones of "caste" and is casted with caste as theme of >>>>>>>> hate, if one >>>>>>>> post talks of twice born as brahmins, another talks of >>>>>>>> brahminical >>>>>>>> domination of media, which are again myths to say the least, if >>>>>>>> otherwise it >>>>>>>> is meant to be "learned" are brahmins, knowledgeable "caste", >>>>>>>> then may be >>>>>>>> it is acceptable but still as we strive for togetherness above >>>>>>>> the caste and >>>>>>>> faith conundrums of hate, it is really ammusing that of all you >>>>>>>> start with >>>>>>>> this theme of hate on the basi of caste.? >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> To illustrate, Mr. Kancha Illayya, regular columnist, who >>>>>>>> takes up >>>>>>>> issues of oppressed is a brahmin by his domination in media >>>>>>>> with >>>>>>>> the issues, >>>>>>>> just as sage Vishwamitra who gave the most potent manthra, >>>>>>>> Gayathri, is >>>>>>>> brahmin by his work, not by birth.? But contrary examples are >>>>>>>> also are >>>>>>>> visible in society, where by birth some are brahmins, but >>>>>>>> behaviour is that >>>>>>>> of worse than anyone, like the Dr. Murli manohar Joshi, in his >>>>>>>> acts and >>>>>>>> utterances.? Again, a journalist and lecturer in Physics., Dr. >>>>>>>> Joshi, who >>>>>>>> blindly follows the rituals without knowing the reasons behind >>>>>>>> such rituals, >>>>>>>> is again worse off even as brahmin born, as birth does not give >>>>>>>> the right to >>>>>>>> oppress others.? For example, the meaning of twice born is that >>>>>>>> once the >>>>>>>> child is born, at the tender age of around 12 years, he is >>>>>>>> vowed >>>>>>>> to go for >>>>>>>> higher studies to Benares, and the trip being in olden days, >>>>>>>> hazardous, it >>>>>>>> was presumed to be secong birth to undertake such a long >>>>>>>> journey >>>>>>>> for >>>>>>>> education, times have changed with chools imparting >>>>>>>> education at >>>>>>>> hop, skip >>>>>>>> and jump distances from homes these days.? >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> As to media and media houses, most of them are run atleast in >>>>>>>> Karnataka >>>>>>>> by Idigas, or theeyas, or known in slang as toddy tappers, so >>>>>>>> the education >>>>>>>> has changed everything, let us come out of this caste fixation, >>>>>>>> judge the >>>>>>>> works rather than the caste.Visual media channels are again >>>>>>>> run by >>>>>>>> individuals who know how to run the business with trps, news is >>>>>>>> not what >>>>>>>> viewers want, but what the channels dish out as views in >>>>>>>> news in >>>>>>>> this age of >>>>>>>> info-tainment. Otherwise how do you explain the anchors and >>>>>>>> their behaviour >>>>>>>> with type of presentation of "news" compared to western media, >>>>>>>> where anchors >>>>>>>> are better dressed with least exposure of made up face and >>>>>>>> bodies.? >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Regards, >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Rajen. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> -- >>>>>>> http://venukm.blogspot.com/ >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> -- >>>>> http://venukm.blogspot.com/ >>>>> _________________________________________ >>>>> reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. >>>>> Critiques & Collaborations >>>>> To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with >>>>> subscribe in the subject header. >>>>> To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader- >>>>> list >>>>> List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> >>>> >>>> Shuddhabrata Sengupta >>>> The Sarai Programme at CSDS >>>> Raqs Media Collective >>>> shuddha at sarai.net >>>> www.sarai.net >>>> www.raqsmediacollective.net >>>> >>>> >>>> _________________________________________ >>>> reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. >>>> Critiques & Collaborations >>>> To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with >>>> subscribe in the subject header. >>>> To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list >>>> List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> >>>> >>> _________________________________________ >>> reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. >>> Critiques & Collaborations >>> To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with >> subscribe in the subject header. >>> To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list >>> List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> >> >> >> >> >> -- >> >> http://indersalim.livejournal.com >> >> _________________________________________ >> reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. >> Critiques & Collaborations >> To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with >> subscribe in the subject header. >> To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list >> List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > subscribe in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> Shuddhabrata Sengupta The Sarai Programme at CSDS Raqs Media Collective shuddha at sarai.net www.sarai.net www.raqsmediacollective.net From vashsand at hotmail.com Fri Apr 24 04:57:13 2009 From: vashsand at hotmail.com (Sandeep) Date: Fri, 24 Apr 2009 01:27:13 +0200 Subject: [Reader-list] mohammad etc Message-ID: dear all did mohamaed slept with more women than krishna? or otherway around! thats the real problem between hindus and muslims cheers Sandeep _________________________________________________________________ More than messages–check out the rest of the Windows Live™. http://www.microsoft.com/windows/windowslive/ From 2tahamehmood at googlemail.com Fri Apr 24 05:56:47 2009 From: 2tahamehmood at googlemail.com (Taha Mehmood) Date: Fri, 24 Apr 2009 01:26:47 +0100 Subject: [Reader-list] mohammad etc In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <65be9bf40904231726x4f28e3a8n4576cd69fa259d04@mail.gmail.com> Dear All Could I suggest, that this is a deliberate and unwarranted provocation by Sandeep to whip up a completely uncalled for debate. Taha From rahul_capri at yahoo.com Fri Apr 24 06:15:53 2009 From: rahul_capri at yahoo.com (Rahul Asthana) Date: Thu, 23 Apr 2009 17:45:53 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Reader-list] Brahminical dominence ? Message-ID: <272610.66672.qm@web53607.mail.re2.yahoo.com> Shuddha, A few things. > However, before jumping to conclusions, let us remember > that the > quran speaks in more than one voice with regard to > contempt, and > about the efforts by satirical poets to ridicule the > prophet with > their utterances. What does this have to do with your evaluation of that particular act of Mohamed?Would you consider all the teachings in the Hindu pantheon to judge the aforementioned act of Ram? > Muslims are also taught the tradition of the woman who > would > regularly throw trash on the prophet as he walked down a > particular > path.The prophet never responded in kind to the woman's > abuse. There is no corroboratory Hadith for this story either.So according to your standard this story should also be discarded. "As far as I know, the Hindu traditions that encode the > worship of > Rama the king of Ayodhya also deify him. In their eyes, he > is god. > And god can do no wrong. " The last sentence is wrong according to Hindu tradition. There are several instances in Hindu scriptures where Gods have done wrong.There is a story in Mahabharata about how none of the Pandava brothers get to heaven,Krishna died because of a curse on him by some Rishi because he abused the Rishi while he was intoxicated etc. Thanks Rahul --- On Fri, 4/24/09, Shuddhabrata Sengupta wrote: > From: Shuddhabrata Sengupta > Subject: Re: [Reader-list] Brahminical dominence ? > To: "Pawan Durani" > Cc: "reader-list" > Date: Friday, April 24, 2009, 4:36 AM > Pawan, > > Here is my attempt at a straightforward (even if slightly > lengthy) > answer to your question. > > The prophet known as Muhammad to his followers is reported > (according > to the ahadith and seerat-bigoraphical accounts) to have > condoned, if > not endorsed the assasination of at least seven satirical > poets, > namely, Al Nadr bin al Harith, Uqba bin Abu Muayt, Asma > bint Marwan, > Abu Afak, Kab bin al Ashraf, Ibn Sunayna, an anonymous > Bedouin, a > singing girl belonging to Abdullah bin Katal. > > These are cases that may be seen as being roughly > comparable to the > murder of Shambuk for his act of speaking/ reading the > vedas, at the > orders of the character called Rama. Both are narratives of > acts of > violence consequent upon acts of reading/speaking something > deemed > offensive. They may be seen as attacks on the freedom of > speech, and > justly so. > > Of these seven, reports of the murders of poets and > performers, > reliable textual evidence (as in a hadith that is > considered to be > reliable in terms of its isnad or transmission) can be > found for > just one, that is for the murder of Kab bin al Ashraf. The > others > have numerous problems of exegetical authenticity and > verifiability, > so let us stick to what can be said with a certain degree > of certainty. > > Let us suppose that the man called Kab bin al-Ashraf was > indeed > killed for his speech. If that is the case, I would have no > > hesitation in saying that the conduct of Muhammad > demonstrates > arrogance unbecoming (in this instance) of a prophet > committed to a > vision of life based on peace and compassion. I would have > no > hesitation in saying that exactly as in Rama's > execution of Shambuka, > such an act would be, in my opinion, best described as - > stupid, > arrogant and unwise. > > However, before jumping to conclusions, let us remember > that the > quran speaks in more than one voice with regard to > contempt, and > about the efforts by satirical poets to ridicule the > prophet with > their utterances. Allah explicitly commands Muhammad to be > patient > towards those who speak ill of him. In verse 28 for > instance, we hear > the following, and I quote : "When (the righteous) > hear vain talk, > they withdraw from it saying: 'Our deeds are for us and > yours for > you; peace be on to you. We do not desire the way of the > ignorant'. . .O Prophet (Muhammad), you cannot give > guidance to whom > you wish, it is God Who gives guidance to whom He pleases, > and He is > quite aware of those who are guided." (28:55-56) > > Muslims are also taught the tradition of the woman who > would > regularly throw trash on the prophet as he walked down a > particular > path.The prophet never responded in kind to the woman's > abuse. > Instead, when she one day failed to attack him, he went to > her home > to inquire about her condition and good health. > > So there are as many reliable accounts of Muhammad's > forgiving nature > as there are of his vengeful, aggressive nature. A lot > depends on > what you choose to believe. > > I am not a believer, so I do not need to make this choice. > I am just > as willing to say that if the stories about vengefulness > are taken at > their face value, then the conduct of the prophet can best > be > described as unbecoming and arrogant, just as arrogant and > unwise or > stupid as Rama. If, on the other hand, the stories about > compassion, > liberality and forgiveness are to be believed, then, the > prophet can > be seen as an exemplar of how a person should deal with > hostility. > Whatever be the case, I do not think that the lives and > reputations > of interesting and exemplary men and women (and I would > count > Muhammad as one such person, even though I am not a > believer) are > diminished by the retention of our ability to be critical > of them. > > As far as I know, Muhammad is not worshipped in the > Islamicate > tradition as a deity. He is neither god, nor the son of > god. he is > merely god's messenger. His actions are shown to be > that of a mortal, > (not divine) being. They are exemplary, but in the end, > fallible, > even if he is seen and portrayed as the best of men. He > doubts > himself, his followers are reported on occasion as > disagreeing with > him. There is debate, disagreement, discussion and > dialogue. > > As far as I know, the Hindu traditions that encode the > worship of > Rama the king of Ayodhya also deify him. In their eyes, he > is god. > And god can do no wrong. Rama's occasional deviance > from justice and > ethics (such as in the case of the slaying of Bali by > deception) are > in fact pointed out as instances of divine exception, of > the fact > that one cannot judge gods and men by the same ethical > criteria. > > God is not seen as capable of making mistakes and errors of > > judgement. Otherwise he would not be divine. If Rama made > mistakes he > could not be divine. If he is divine, he cannot make > mistakes. > > Since I am not a believer in his divinity. I am free to see > that he > makes mistakes. If you are a believer in his divinity, then > that > choice is not available to you. > > And so, I can see that if Muhammad endorsed the > assasination of Kab, > then that was clearly a mistake, an error born of > arrogance, maybe > even stupidity. The difference is, In the case of Muhammad, > I do not > have to be a hypothetical unbeliever to see this. > > In my opinion, It is perfectly possible to be a believing > Muslim and > to be critical (notwithstanding what fundamentalists and > idiotic > zealots may tell you) of some of Muhammad's actions, > just as it is > possible to be appreciative of the vast majority of them. > Muhammad > himself is reported to be admitting to the fact that > occasionally he > is in error. This is pointed out to underscore the fact > that he is > mortal, not divine. His mortality and his imperfections > (arising from > his humanity) are central to the Islamic faith. To deny him > his > imperfection would be to attribute divinity to him, and > nothing can > be closer to heresy than to attribute divinity to a human > being, no > matter how expemplary that human being is or can be. > > I hope you have an answer to your question by now. > > best > > Shuddha > > > > > > > > > IInder, > > > My question has still been left unanswered. Let me > repeat it again ... > > > > " Would you dare to use the same language if we > quote something > > from Holy > > Quran and refer Prophet Mohammad [ pbuh] . > > > > Lat time i asked you the same question , i heard you > had wet pants. > > > > Pawan > > > > > > On 4/23/09, Inder Salim > wrote: > >> > >> I see it again through the eyes of a poet, here, > valmiki himself, who > >> was not a favourite with the ruling elite of > Dashratha's Kingdom, > >> but was deeply documenting all the happenings > inside and outside the > >> palace. There was indeed political infighting > between different wives > >> of the King Dashratha, and that has obviously let > his 14 years exile > >> in the forests. How come, the pregnant Sita was > helped by the poet > >> himself. It is all the great compassionate heart > that brings out such > >> a fantastic human end to an epic, which is full of > motherly love. I > >> believe, the poet Valmiki was transformed into a > pregnant himself, > >> and > >> that is why we all the reasons to respect the > poet, the great > >> valmiki, > >> the untouchable... > >> > >> Shamuka , say, imaginary character, but > untouchable like the poet > >> himself, who was killed for no fault of his. And > i believe the poet > >> has all the rights to express himself though a > protagonist or a > >> character, > >> > >> See, Ved Vyas must have been a really romantic > poet, and that is why > >> there is a long documentation of Krishna's > adolescent life with other > >> village girls. > >> > >> so nothing derogatory about writing about it, if > one has the sense of > >> humor and reasoning intact. > >> > >> with love and regards > >> inder salim > >> > >> > >> On Thu, Apr 23, 2009 at 8:00 PM, Pawan Durani > >> > >> wrote: > >>> Dear Shuddha, > >>> I am just curious . Would you dare to use the > same language if we > >>> quote > >>> something from Holy Quran and refer Prophet > Mohammad [ pbuh] . > >>> > >>> > >>> Lean to respect religion and faith. > >>> > >>> Pawan > >>> > >>> On Thu, Apr 23, 2009 at 4:33 AM, Shuddhabrata > Sengupta < > >> shuddha at sarai.net>wrote: > >>> > >>>> Is this character called Ram or Rama not > the same arrogant king who > >>>> once killed a scholar called Shambuka > >>>> because he was found studying the > scriptures. The crime being that > >>>> Shambuka was an untouchable and so could > not touch the scriptures, > >>>> even with his mind. > >>>> > >>>> Would I want to live in a society where > kings slaughter scholars > >>>> for > >>>> the crime of their curiosity? No, I would > not. I touch a lot of > >>>> stuff with my impure mind, and I want to > live safe from stupid > >>>> kings > >>>> who don't know better. I think we > ought to be grateful that Ram > >>>> Rajya > >>>> is as yet a distant dream of a lunatic > fringe. Lets hope it stays > >>>> that way. > >>>> > >>>> best > >>>> > >>>> Shuddha > >>>> On 22-Apr-09, at 2:27 PM, Venugopalan K M > wrote: > >>>> > >>>>>> "..."As to Rama Rajya, > let it be remembered that Rama was > >>>>>> kshatriya > >>>>> king who administered his subjects wth > care and concern for public > >>>>> opinion. A doubt about his own wife as > expressed by a subject > >>>>> made him > >>>>> take the harsh step to send his wife > to the forests when she was > >>>>> pregnent, to the Ashram. Todays > leaders do not care for the public > >>>>> opinion as much as they did , but > generate public opinion thru > >>>>> media > >>>>> and other means for their agendas, is > my perception".." > >>>>> > >>>>> But that is excatly what I would > rather take objection to not just > >>>>> your concept of 'Rajya' but > also its iconic hero, Ram. > >>>>> Please excuse me when I say that this > vulgar expression of > >>>>> "prajahitham"(public > opinion) against a poor woman is nothing > >>>>> different from its newer versions of > "hithams" of Sri Ram Senes! > >>>>> > >>>>> While it is repugnant to humanity, > seen even by the standards of > >>>>> ancient monarchy it is much more > unacceptable to the standards of > >>>>> human rights of our age. It would be > a grave instance of atrocity > >>>>> perpetrated against women with > impunity by the kings in the > >>>>> name of > >>>>> 'public opinion'. What sort of > king was he to grow suspicious > >>>>> of the > >>>>> chastity of his queen lived in forced > exile , and yet to take > >>>>> recourse > >>>>> to 'public opinion' (most > probably manufactured) to justify > >>>>> throwing > >>>>> her to fire? What bloody business this > poor dhobi family had to > >>>>> suspect Sita as a bad woman? In my > understanding, this is > >>>>> nothing but > >>>>> projection of source of one's own > ill feeling to someone else, > >>>>> skulking away from taking up the > moral responsibility. The > >>>>> kind of > >>>>> relationship the king had with the > queen, perhaps might have > >>>>> gone to > >>>>> deep trouble even otherwise. > >>>>> > >>>>> Well, this tendency to dupe people by > spreading cock and bull > >>>>> stories > >>>>> about dharma in an effort to justify > the most grotesque violence > >>>>> against women and the lower caste > people might be part of the > >>>>> essence > >>>>> of Ramarajya of the past as well as > the present, and this is > >>>>> what many > >>>>> people call Brahmanism. Whatever you > call this, you are > >>>>> supporting > >>>>> this and suggesting that 'Rama > Rajya ' would help us cure of > >>>>> our ills. > >>>>> The headache is yours and not of > others who don't want to believe > >>>>> these parables over laden with > instruments of moral policing. > >>>>> Regards, > >>>>> Venu > >>>>> . > >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>> 22, 2009 at 11:40 AM, Rajen > Uppinangadi > >>>>> > wrote: > >>>>>> Hi, > >>>>>> > >>>>>> Venu; > >>>>>> > >>>>>> Such general sweeping comments > do not hold water in pluralistic > >>>>>> society > >>>>>> like this free India. To condemn > the "brahminical" thinking > >>>>>> itself is > >>>>>> absurd, as brahminical way of > thinking is for "sarve jana sukhino > >>>>>> bhavanthu, > >>>>>> in Vasudaiva kutumbakam. > >>>>>> > >>>>>> While it is true that in every > faith, the women are subjugated, > >>>>>> denied > >>>>>> education and are less privileged > with rights and the accent is > >>>>>> more on > >>>>>> their duties, it is absurd to say > that hindu way of life > >>>>>> encourages such in > >>>>>> equality, for if it was so, gargi > and maithreyi would not have > >>>>>> had > >>>>>> the place > >>>>>> in the arguments for the > society.The marad killings would not > >>>>>> have > >>>>>> happened > >>>>>> when children and women were > massacred in your backyard of > >>>>>> Kerala. > >>>>>> Shah Bano > >>>>>> case would not have been the > instance to talk about where > >>>>>> livelihood was > >>>>>> denied for a woman.Compared to > other faiths, hindu way of life > >>>>>> has > >>>>>> exceptional place for women in > modern living, unlike taliban > >>>>>> which > >>>>>> shoots > >>>>>> down the couple if found walking > together, the mullas would not > >>>>>> proclaim > >>>>>> fathwas for the saving of a father > for raping his own > >>>>>> daughter. With > >>>>>> changing times, it is reforms that > have taken place in hindu way > >>>>>> of life > >>>>>> from within religion rather than > outside, thanks to persons > >>>>>> like Raja > >>>>>> Rammohan Roy, Jyothi Phule , and > many other reformists, in modern > >>>>>> times even > >>>>>> Ambedkar has contributed his might > to reforms in the way society > >>>>>> treats the > >>>>>> oppressed. But the political will > to reforms in society has to > >>>>>> come from > >>>>>> within the society as no amounts > of laws can change as seen in > >>>>>> Dowry act, > >>>>>> and the dowry menace is > flourishing in all faiths.In fact, the > >>>>>> roman > >>>>>> catholic weddings in Kerala are > notorious for the wedding and > >>>>>> lavish dory > >>>>>> angle to them, as clergy would > bless the couple who part with > >>>>>> substantially > >>>>>> dirty, obscene amounts for such > blessing of an arch bishop, as > >>>>>> was > >>>>>> told to > >>>>>> me by a bishop friend. > >>>>>> > >>>>>> So, to generalise the menace of > oppression only to one way of > >>>>>> life, hindu is > >>>>>> not only reflects the general > trend of condemning whatever is > >>>>>> hindu, as > >>>>>> brahminical. As to Rama Rajya, let > it be remembered that Rama was > >>>>>> kshatriya > >>>>>> king who administered his subjects > wth care and concern for > >>>>>> public > >>>>>> opinion. > >>>>>> A doubt about his own wife as > expressed by a subject made him > >>>>>> take > >>>>>> the harsh > >>>>>> step to send his wife to the > forests when she was pregnent, to > >>>>>> the > >>>>>> Ashram. > >>>>>> Todays leaders do not care for the > public opinion as much as they > >>>>>> did , but > >>>>>> generate public opinion thru media > and other means for their > >>>>>> agendas, is my > >>>>>> perception. > >>>>>> > >>>>>> Regards, > >>>>>> > >>>>>> Rajen. > >>>>>> > >>>>>> On Tue, Apr 21, 2009 at 5:50 PM, > Venugopalan K M > >>>>>> > >>>>>> wrote: > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> Dear Rajen, > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> By adopting such a position on > Brahmanical and Brahmanism, one > >>>>>>> will stand > >>>>>>> to lose the very usefulness of > this important concept. As you > >>>>>>> were stating > >>>>>>> it has less to do with > propagating hate than understanding the > >>>>>>> exceptionally > >>>>>>> institutionalized and > ritualized hate in the social and > >>>>>>> cultural > >>>>>>> life of > >>>>>>> India. > >>>>>>> This is sure to raise lot of > other questions: Why, for example > >>>>>>> after the > >>>>>>> happening of the Khairlanji in > September 2006 {almost the entire > >>>>>>> people of a > >>>>>>> village participate in the act > of parading naked,raping, > >>>>>>> (women),killing and > >>>>>>> mutilating the bodies of the 4 > victims who were members of a > >>>>>>> dalit family > >>>>>>> (converted to Budhism) }, the > entire media kept silence for > >>>>>>> about > >>>>>>> one month? > >>>>>>> So , an understanding of > Brahmanism together with Brahmanical > >>>>>>> ways of > >>>>>>> thinking, not only does not > talk of Brahmans as persons but > >>>>>>> more as a > >>>>>>> collective and typically > negative attitude. It is > >>>>>>> characterized by > >>>>>>> defending privileges with > respect to the ascending order of > >>>>>>> caste > >>>>>>> and > >>>>>>> denying equality; > significantly women of all castes are > >>>>>>> automatically > >>>>>>> considered inferior to their > male counterparts(this is also seen > >>>>>>> in every > >>>>>>> other religion; but practices > of cruelty to widows ,women not > >>>>>>> giving birth > >>>>>>> to to male offsprings, not > able to consummate marriage etc,etc > >>>>>>> are viewed > >>>>>>> with special contempt in the > brahmanical Hinduism).The extremely > >>>>>>> negative > >>>>>>> attitude to change or reform > is a direct result of a desire to > >>>>>>> protect the > >>>>>>> system of privileges to the > exclusion of others. These are > >>>>>>> generally what > >>>>>>> are considered as traits > associated with > >>>>>>> Brahmanism.Unfortunately, > majority > >>>>>>> of victims of this system of > heirarchy are ideologically co- > >>>>>>> opted > >>>>>>> to it; > >>>>>>> they are not expected to doubt > the system which is has been > >>>>>>> taught to them > >>>>>>> as divinely ordained.They are > expected to just obey without > >>>>>>> grumbles and > >>>>>>> get better off in the future > birth.(Chathrvarnam maya srushtam > >>>>>>> guna karma > >>>>>>> vibhagasa- The system has been > created by me according to your > >>>>>>> past karma > >>>>>>> and your qualities and just do > your caste-ordained duties- > >>>>>>> this is > >>>>>>> the > >>>>>>> message of Bhagvan in Gita (Ch > IX verse 32 ?..I don't > >>>>>>> remember it > >>>>>>> correctly) > >>>>>>> I'm not suggesting that > every person believing in the Hindu > >>>>>>> scriptures and > >>>>>>> the Gita would support mass > murders and ritualistic killings of > >>>>>>> dalits as > >>>>>>> happened in khairlanji..not > that the media always will > >>>>>>> attempt to > >>>>>>> cover up > >>>>>>> such incidents.To be certain, > in the media controlled by the > >>>>>>> upper caste > >>>>>>> Hindus,there is always a > tendency to underplay the unpleasant > >>>>>>> factors > >>>>>>> related with caste. Gandhi was > a great admirer and > >>>>>>> interpretor of > >>>>>>> Gita and > >>>>>>> yet he was assassinated by > Godse, who was a fanatic adherent of > >>>>>>> Brahmanism.But even Gandhi > believed in a Ramarajya of his own > >>>>>>> notion..so are > >>>>>>> the less enlightened > 'Hindu' masses to a greater or lesser > >>>>>>> degree in > >>>>>>> denying equality to women and > lower castes, the very victims of > >>>>>>> discriminations included.Then, > not to speak of the tendency to > >>>>>>> resist > >>>>>>> reservations and to monopolize > knowledge and power by a > >>>>>>> minority. > >>>>>>> Certainly, > >>>>>>> the print media dominated by > the upper caste plays a significant > >>>>>>> role in > >>>>>>> perpetuating the bias against > the under privileged.The internet > >>>>>>> and the > >>>>>>> electronic media at a more > globalized level, are able to > >>>>>>> challenge this > >>>>>>> privilege of the upper caste > elites in significant ways. > >>>>>>> Regards, > >>>>>>> Venu. > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> Regards, > >>>>>>> Venu. > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> On Tue, Apr 21, 2009 at 4:31 > PM, Rajen Uppinangadi > >>>>>>> > wrote: > >>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>> Hi, > >>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>> Venu, > >>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>> List is at times, > makes up for the surprise packages for > >>>>>>>> all > >>>>>>>> with > >>>>>>>> undertones of > "caste" and is casted with caste as theme of > >>>>>>>> hate, if one > >>>>>>>> post talks of twice born > as brahmins, another talks of > >>>>>>>> brahminical > >>>>>>>> domination of media, which > are again myths to say the least, if > >>>>>>>> otherwise it > >>>>>>>> is meant to be > "learned" are brahmins, knowledgeable > "caste", > >>>>>>>> then may be > >>>>>>>> it is acceptable but still > as we strive for togetherness above > >>>>>>>> the caste and > >>>>>>>> faith conundrums of hate, > it is really ammusing that of all you > >>>>>>>> start with > >>>>>>>> this theme of hate on the > basi of caste.? > >>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>> To illustrate, Mr. > Kancha Illayya, regular columnist, who > >>>>>>>> takes up > >>>>>>>> issues of oppressed is a > brahmin by his domination in media > >>>>>>>> with > >>>>>>>> the issues, > >>>>>>>> just as sage Vishwamitra > who gave the most potent manthra, > >>>>>>>> Gayathri, is > >>>>>>>> brahmin by his work, not > by birth.? But contrary examples are > >>>>>>>> also are > >>>>>>>> visible in society, where > by birth some are brahmins, but > >>>>>>>> behaviour is that > >>>>>>>> of worse than anyone, > like the Dr. Murli manohar Joshi, in his > >>>>>>>> acts and > >>>>>>>> utterances.? Again, a > journalist and lecturer in Physics., Dr. > >>>>>>>> Joshi, who > >>>>>>>> blindly follows the > rituals without knowing the reasons behind > >>>>>>>> such rituals, > >>>>>>>> is again worse off even as > brahmin born, as birth does not give > >>>>>>>> the right to > >>>>>>>> oppress others.? For > example, the meaning of twice born is that > >>>>>>>> once the > >>>>>>>> child is born, at the > tender age of around 12 years, he is > >>>>>>>> vowed > >>>>>>>> to go for > >>>>>>>> higher studies to Benares, > and the trip being in olden days, > >>>>>>>> hazardous, it > >>>>>>>> was presumed to be secong > birth to undertake such a long > >>>>>>>> journey > >>>>>>>> for > >>>>>>>> education, times have > changed with chools imparting > >>>>>>>> education at > >>>>>>>> hop, skip > >>>>>>>> and jump distances from > homes these days.? > >>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>> As to media and media > houses, most of them are run atleast in > >>>>>>>> Karnataka > >>>>>>>> by Idigas, or theeyas, or > known in slang as toddy tappers, so > >>>>>>>> the education > >>>>>>>> has changed everything, > let us come out of this caste fixation, > >>>>>>>> judge the > >>>>>>>> works rather than the > caste.Visual media channels are again > >>>>>>>> run by > >>>>>>>> individuals who know how > to run the business with trps, news is > >>>>>>>> not what > >>>>>>>> viewers want, but what the > channels dish out as views in > >>>>>>>> news in > >>>>>>>> this age of > >>>>>>>> info-tainment. Otherwise > how do you explain the anchors and > >>>>>>>> their behaviour > >>>>>>>> with type of presentation > of "news" compared to western media, > >>>>>>>> where anchors > >>>>>>>> are better dressed with > least exposure of made up face and > >>>>>>>> bodies.? > >>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>> Regards, > >>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>> Rajen. > >>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>> > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> -- > >>>>>>> http://venukm.blogspot.com/ > >>>>>> > >>>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>> -- > >>>>> http://venukm.blogspot.com/ > >>>>> > _________________________________________ > >>>>> reader-list: an open discussion list > on media and the city. > >>>>> Critiques & Collaborations > >>>>> To subscribe: send an email to > reader-list-request at sarai.net with > >>>>> subscribe in the subject header. > >>>>> To unsubscribe: > https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader- > >>>>> list > >>>>> List archive: > <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> > >>>> > >>>> Shuddhabrata Sengupta > >>>> The Sarai Programme at CSDS > >>>> Raqs Media Collective > >>>> shuddha at sarai.net > >>>> www.sarai.net > >>>> www.raqsmediacollective.net > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> _________________________________________ > >>>> reader-list: an open discussion list on > media and the city. > >>>> Critiques & Collaborations > >>>> To subscribe: send an email to > reader-list-request at sarai.net with > >>>> subscribe in the subject header. > >>>> To unsubscribe: > https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > >>>> List archive: > <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> > >>>> > >>> _________________________________________ > >>> reader-list: an open discussion list on media > and the city. > >>> Critiques & Collaborations > >>> To subscribe: send an email to > reader-list-request at sarai.net with > >> subscribe in the subject header. > >>> To unsubscribe: > https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > >>> List archive: > <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> -- > >> > >> http://indersalim.livejournal.com > >> > >> _________________________________________ > >> reader-list: an open discussion list on media and > the city. > >> Critiques & Collaborations > >> To subscribe: send an email to > reader-list-request at sarai.net with > >> subscribe in the subject header. > >> To unsubscribe: > https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > >> List archive: > <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> > > _________________________________________ > > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the > city. > > Critiques & Collaborations > > To subscribe: send an email to > reader-list-request at sarai.net with > > subscribe in the subject header. > > To unsubscribe: > https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > > List archive: > <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> > > Shuddhabrata Sengupta > The Sarai Programme at CSDS > Raqs Media Collective > shuddha at sarai.net > www.sarai.net > www.raqsmediacollective.net > > > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to > reader-list-request at sarai.net with subscribe in the subject > header. > To unsubscribe: > https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: > <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> From rahul_capri at yahoo.com Fri Apr 24 06:27:37 2009 From: rahul_capri at yahoo.com (Rahul Asthana) Date: Thu, 23 Apr 2009 17:57:37 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Reader-list] mohammad etc In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <746174.71540.qm@web53601.mail.re2.yahoo.com> I find Sandeep's equal opportunity irreverence very refreshing,and I do get the point he is trying to make.Really, should we give a rodents rear about these things? --- On Fri, 4/24/09, Sandeep wrote: > From: Sandeep > Subject: [Reader-list] mohammad etc > To: "sa" > Date: Friday, April 24, 2009, 4:57 AM > dear all > > > > did mohamaed slept with more women than krishna? or > > otherway around! thats the real problem between hindus and > muslims > > > > > > cheers > > Sandeep > > > > _________________________________________________________________ > More than messages–check out the rest of the Windows > Live™. > http://www.microsoft.com/windows/windowslive/ > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to > reader-list-request at sarai.net with subscribe in the subject > header. > To unsubscribe: > https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: > <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> From 2tahamehmood at googlemail.com Fri Apr 24 07:29:23 2009 From: 2tahamehmood at googlemail.com (Taha Mehmood) Date: Fri, 24 Apr 2009 02:59:23 +0100 Subject: [Reader-list] mohammad etc In-Reply-To: <746174.71540.qm@web53601.mail.re2.yahoo.com> References: <746174.71540.qm@web53601.mail.re2.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <65be9bf40904231859k1099ea99od5873faae3a40f1e@mail.gmail.com> Dear Rahul, May I ask what is it that you find so 'refreshing' in this stale pronouncement. I am curious to know whether Sandeep wrote from a deep sense of conviction? I would be glad if you were to elaborate on the 'refreshing' nature Sandeep's observations with annotations from all the relevant texts because it would make us understand your point of view better. Even insofar as your 'refreshing' theory is concerned I am not sure whether you will be able to stand by Sandeep's convictions, on all public platforms, would you? And if you so choose, then please allow me to give you, all of my best wishes!! Taha From 2tahamehmood at googlemail.com Fri Apr 24 08:42:22 2009 From: 2tahamehmood at googlemail.com (Taha Mehmood) Date: Fri, 24 Apr 2009 04:12:22 +0100 Subject: [Reader-list] Delay breeds corruption, EPIC cards and corruption, role of election commission in breeding corruption. In-Reply-To: <61164a90904230445x7fac2107ped4f6d6349d4e7c7@mail.gmail.com> References: <61164a90904230445x7fac2107ped4f6d6349d4e7c7@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <65be9bf40904232012r38dc4178mc25f745ad65e2996@mail.gmail.com> Dear Rajen Thank you for taking the trouble of articulating your experiences with regards to EPIC and writing a detail post. I think for all us in India, it is a matter of utmost concern to not only make our voices heard but also actively debate about the ongoing proposal of the central government to introduce the national identity card. You point out the malaise of kickbacks and so on while procuring an EPIC card. One of my point of concern has been with logistics of carrying out NID exercise. All the state literature, policy papers etc has tried to sell the idea of MNIC since last ten years. Which, to some, may look like a glorified PR exercise. Why is it that of all the political parties, the BJP is so interested in this issue, while others have remained mum? I think amongst the BJP's politicians, I have observed Prakesh Jadveker voice the need for a national identity card, the maximum number of times, I wonder why the BJP, which is otherwise so quick to ask for a debate on issues of grave national importance is not even hinting for a dialogue on this most crucial citizenship document, which is a matter of concern to all Indians. In the similar vein, I find it extremely curious to find Preity Zinta talk about MNIC on various public platforms. She has voiced her concerns on at least three occasions in last three years, which makes it all the more intriguing. Because if she is so convinced about the curative powers of MNIC that past three years, she has not changed her position and if she believes that such a technology would benefit an entire nation then, surely like any responsible citizen, she must have critically looked at some literature on identity cards which must have convinced her totally. What I find ironical is that- any critical literature on identity documents is bound to inform us about the untenability of such a document. Because conceptually the issue of individual identity is unresolved. Therefore I wonder, Why is it that of all the bollywood starlets, she is the sole one voicing a concern about the need to introduce MNIC? Whose interests is she representing? Whose voice is she airing? Arguments like illegal immigration will be curbed, PDS will be distributed swiftly, efficiently etc has been doled by politicians and state departments of all hues to make a case for a technology which is shrouded in fundamental conceptual mystery. I think it is a matter of utmost importance for us to press for a dialogue and a public debate on this issue. EPIC was introduced in early nineties. Before EPIC voter ID cards were manual documents. The argument for EPIC was similar to the one which is peddled for MINC, that with a photo it would easier to find a bogus voter and so on, like with MNIC, the government officials claim that it would help weed out citizen from a non citizen. This claim is far more easier said than done. Because in order to distribute a MNIC card, one has to establish beyond the pale of reasonable doubt that a person is eligible to be a citizen; in order to do so, one has to identify the person as that particular person. Now there are a lot of people out there who will have fake identity documents, who will filter through this bureaucratic maze, like there would perhaps hundreds of thousands of real Indians who will not have the requisite papers to authenticate a claim that they are in fact who the say they are. In such a condition, I do not know how viable or valid would the introduction of a new technology would be? On the other hand, when we know that the election commission of India has, after eighteen years since the introduction of EPIC, bought a little over a two thirds of eligible voters into the fold of legibility, then I don't understand, why cannot the responsibility of validating the citizenship of our entire nation, be not given to EC? Why is there so much of haste to commit and distribute public monies of the tune of hundreds of thousands of crores to these chip manufacturing companies? I think, we need more public dialogue on this issue. Would we not, for instance, benefit as aware citizens, if we were know the nature of the networks which exists between the bureaucracy, business houses, technology related media and politicians? Are these invisible networks not pushing for policy, for contracts, and for the re-distribution of public monies in the name of peddling plastic tokens of citizenship? Regards Taha From rajen882uppinangadi at gmail.com Fri Apr 24 11:52:23 2009 From: rajen882uppinangadi at gmail.com (Rajen Uppinangadi) Date: Fri, 24 Apr 2009 11:52:23 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] stop this nonsense. Message-ID: <61164a90904232322l4f84253dp56830c52dddc98c@mail.gmail.com> Sandeep, what happened few thousand years ago, is not the concern for all in society, of any faith, and to belittle others faith with precarious posts is frivolous. For your sake and for your next generation, and the society, debate on the present day issues would be better to have enlightened experience. So this request. Also it does not matter today, whether a kshatriya king killed a Shambuka for what purpose is as interpreted by todays' intellectuals, with their own axe to grind. Any event of the past may be given a spin to suit ones presumed idealogy with "intellectual" garb. What we forget easily, is these emotional spins will destroy the present and spoil the future of the nation, thus democracy again suffers for want of vision for the present and future.But that does not mean we should not discuss these issues as they give comic relief at times, for the intellect at the seriousness of the post.? Regards, Rajen. From rajen882uppinangadi at gmail.com Fri Apr 24 12:10:46 2009 From: rajen882uppinangadi at gmail.com (Rajen Uppinangadi) Date: Fri, 24 Apr 2009 12:10:46 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Help!!!? Message-ID: <61164a90904232340i71252598ke85970af6eeb02c9@mail.gmail.com> Hey, is this some kind of prank, for one JNU is known citadel of leftist elite intellect, and the faculty is mostly the parking lot for the politically connected progeny of the congress politicians and left. Most of the faculty who come on the panels for dining room discussions on TV cameras, are to say the least, come with the presence of mind for tv appearences, typical middle class kurtas, joli patti etc.Any student if vistimised, the rule of laws shall apply equally whether ABVP/NSUI or left controlled student mobs. Students today build their business of politics right from the college elections, that too in capital of the nation, only citizens wish that they will be for good governance and not for mob rule.? Regards, Rajen. From rajen882uppinangadi at gmail.com Fri Apr 24 12:27:09 2009 From: rajen882uppinangadi at gmail.com (Rajen Uppinangadi) Date: Fri, 24 Apr 2009 12:27:09 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Slavery and Islam. Message-ID: <61164a90904232357q2efef9c1ja5f30a982a309df0@mail.gmail.com> Well, Javed, any faith and its interpretation has limitations of the interpreter, and his intellect to interpret, worse, if he is tempted to have material gains by such interpretations, the scriptures will be totally interpreted to suit his/her needs So the same scripture , one can find interpreted differently at different times by different individuals, differently, many times diagonally different.... Inder Salim who likes love and has love gushing out in all his posts, is a poet, but when it comes to isalm, his poems become deserts without even oasis.?.Shuddha has posts to talk about assumed happenings of a king who is revered by some as God incarnate. None of us have seen the actuality of any events but we add our pourings to spoil the perfect today and ruin the tomorrow of the next generation, forgetting that these faiths are only like Light houses in the ocean, which show the rock formations in ocean of life journey, take it leave it, for the safe journey, but to argue that this light house has better light or the other light house is the only saviour is not very intellectual achievement, but greed to propagate the faith and thus dominate the society with numerical strength of the followers.! Any faith is for the individual to live life with morals, ethics and scruples as all the faith have them as guide for good life. Regards, Rajen. From rajen882uppinangadi at gmail.com Fri Apr 24 12:31:10 2009 From: rajen882uppinangadi at gmail.com (Rajen Uppinangadi) Date: Fri, 24 Apr 2009 12:31:10 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Who is the poet who wrote Ramayana.? Message-ID: <61164a90904240001g3a6a1aectf6b46f106a53892c@mail.gmail.com> Inder, many have written about Rama and the rule of Rama, but Vedavyasa is not the one who wrote Ramayana, Valmiki was the first to write, many wrote later, but not Vedavyasa., who is supposed to have dictated Mahabharatha to Ganesha, who wrote with his broken tusk. Regards, Rajen. From rajen882uppinangadi at gmail.com Fri Apr 24 12:34:58 2009 From: rajen882uppinangadi at gmail.com (Rajen Uppinangadi) Date: Fri, 24 Apr 2009 12:34:58 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Lovely Mapillai songs of virtues of Islam. Message-ID: <61164a90904240004g31b7ee36wd6a1fd590485cb13@mail.gmail.com> Hi, all, there are lovely mapillay songs in malayalam about virtues of Islam and they are folk songs of India, by Mapillays, a muslim sect originally sailors of islam who came from Gulf countries. Regards, Rajen. From rajen882uppinangadi at gmail.com Fri Apr 24 13:39:00 2009 From: rajen882uppinangadi at gmail.com (Rajen Uppinangadi) Date: Fri, 24 Apr 2009 13:39:00 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Who is the poet who wrote Ramayana.? In-Reply-To: <478628.31967.qm@web94714.mail.in2.yahoo.com> References: <61164a90904240001g3a6a1aectf6b46f106a53892c@mail.gmail.com> <478628.31967.qm@web94714.mail.in2.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <61164a90904240109g72359fa5la262b657936dee0f@mail.gmail.com> Intellect gone absurd.? As many as 15 Ramayans are prevalent in India, not to speak about the Ramayana written in Indonesia nd Java and Sumathra. Again to attribute "brahmin" ramayana is silly, idiotic, for all those who wrote Ramayana are not necessarily brahmin born. For example, Valmiki is hunter, who turns a poet when he looks at the two birds in coitus getting killed by his arrow. In local dialects over three hundred versions of Ramayanas are available. And as to your randi business, that is the oldest profession known to mankind., seen in all parts of the world at all times. Regards, Rajen. On Fri, Apr 24, 2009 at 1:14 PM, subhrodip sengupta < sub_sengupta at yahoo.co.in> wrote: > Chalo, I'll narrate you a story when some history department's proffessor's > life went hell over his narrations of differrent non-north indian that is > non-bramhinical ramayan.Goons burged into our hostel alleging Sita Maya ko > randi kaha gaya. Nahin, even in the standard version, ram rajya mein > randiyan thi, people used to give them ill fame and any woman could be > refferred to that, what I mean here is it was in fashion to question > womenfolk's peity aur unke quitab o mein hi sita ke charitra ke upar sawaal > uthaya gaya, she was asked to give a test, or may be forced to. Will society > never learn. Still people say about their Laxman Rekha values. > > ------------------------------ > *From:* Rajen Uppinangadi > *To:* indersalim at gmail.com > *Cc:* reader-list at sarai.net > *Sent:* Friday, 24 April, 2009 12:31:10 PM > *Subject:* [Reader-list] Who is the poet who wrote Ramayana.? > > Inder, > many have written about Rama and the rule of Rama, but Vedavyasa is not > the one who wrote Ramayana, Valmiki was the first to write, many wrote > later, but not Vedavyasa., who is supposed to have dictated Mahabharatha > to > Ganesha, who wrote with his broken tusk. > > Regards, > > Rajen. > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > subscribe in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/ > > > > ------------------------------ > Cricket on your mind? Visit the ultimate cricket website. Enter now! > From pawan.durani at gmail.com Fri Apr 24 13:46:03 2009 From: pawan.durani at gmail.com (Pawan Durani) Date: Fri, 24 Apr 2009 13:46:03 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Brahminical dominence ? In-Reply-To: References: <61164a90904210401k462156f8u40f90cea6a76c155@mail.gmail.com> <1f9180970904210520i7b46f3der639cf53ef5821d0@mail.gmail.com> <61164a90904212310x745fa773k4094027432b2420c@mail.gmail.com> <1f9180970904220157m18b3e581q41c51526fa881c0c@mail.gmail.com> <71249196-528B-4F3B-8A84-5BD1FC55248B@sarai.net> <6b79f1a70904230730h5c6a8d6bia01f9f820a433b93@mail.gmail.com> <47e122a70904230810x292f746fo298abd9f89ef793f@mail.gmail.com> <6b79f1a70904230846h117157daxa45dbafc72935cf7@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <6b79f1a70904240116q703bb88dy3c01e7211d8bcf92@mail.gmail.com> Interesting tale of Kab-bin-Al Sharaf "*QUOTE FROM BUKHARI VOLUME 5, #369 *"Narrated Jabir Abdullah: "Allah's messenger said "Who is willing to kill Ka'b bin Al-Ashraf who has hurt Allah and His apostle?" Thereupon Maslama got up saying, "O Allah's messenger! Would you like that I kill him?" The prophet said, "Yes". Maslama said, "Then allow me to say a (false) thing (i.e. to deceive Ka'b). The prophet said, "You may say it." Maslama went to Ka'b and said, "That man (i.e. Muhammad) demands Sadaqa (i.e. Zakat) [taxes] from us, and he has troubled us, and I have come to borrow something from you." On that, Ka'b said, "By Allah, you will get tired of him!" Maslama said, "Now as we have followed him, we do not want to leave him unless and until we see how his end is going to be. Now we want you to lend us a camel load or two of food." Ka'b said, "Yes, but you should mortgage something to me." Maslama and his companion said, What do you want?" Ka'b replied, "Mortgage your women to me." They said, "How can we mortgage our women to you and you are the most handsome of the Arabs?" Ka'b said, "Then mortgage your sons to me." They said, "How can we mortgage our sons to you? Later they would be abused by the people's saying that so and so has been mortgaged for a camel load of food. That would cause us great disgrace, but we will mortgage our arms to you." Maslama and his companion promised Ka'b that Maslama would return to him. He came to Ka'b at night along with Ka'b's foster brother, Abu Naila. Ka'b invited them to come into his fort and then he went down to them. His wife asked him, "Where are you going at this time?" Ka'b replied, None but Maslama and my (foster) brother Abu Naila have come." His wife said, "I hear a voice as if blood is dropping from him." Ka'b said, "They are none by my brother Maslama and my foster brother Abu Naila. A generous man should respond to a call at night even if invited to be killed. Maslama went with two men. So Maslama went in together with two men, and said to them, "When Ka'b comes, I will touch his hair and smell it, and when you see that I have got hold of his head, strike him. I will let you smell his head." Ka'b bin Al-Ashraf came down to them wrapped in his clothes, and diffusing perfume. Maslama said, "I have never smelt a better scent than this." Ka'b replied, "I have got the best Arab women who know how to use the high class of perfume." Maslama requested Ka'b "Will you allow me to smell your head?" Ka'b said "yes." Maslama smelt it and made his companions smell it as well. Then he requested Ka'b again, "Will you let me (smell your head)?" Ka'b said "Yes". When Maslama got a strong hold of him, he said (to his companions) "Get at him!" So they killed him and went to the prophet and informed him." On Fri, Apr 24, 2009 at 4:36 AM, Shuddhabrata Sengupta wrote: > Pawan, > Here is my attempt at a straightforward (even if slightly lengthy) answer > to your question. > > The prophet known as Muhammad to his followers is reported (according to > the ahadith and seerat-bigoraphical accounts) to have condoned, if not > endorsed the assasination of at least seven satirical poets, namely, Al Nadr > bin al Harith, Uqba bin Abu Muayt, Asma bint Marwan, Abu Afak, Kab bin al > Ashraf, Ibn Sunayna, an anonymous Bedouin, a singing girl belonging to > Abdullah bin Katal. > > These are cases that may be seen as being roughly comparable to the murder > of Shambuk for his act of speaking/ reading the vedas, at the orders of the > character called Rama. Both are narratives of acts of violence consequent > upon acts of reading/speaking something deemed offensive. They may be seen > as attacks on the freedom of speech, and justly so. > > Of these seven, reports of the murders of poets and performers, reliable > textual evidence (as in a hadith that is considered to be reliable in terms > of its isnad or transmission) can be found for just one, that is for the > murder of Kab bin al Ashraf. The others have numerous problems of exegetical > authenticity and verifiability, so let us stick to what can be said with a > certain degree of certainty. > > Let us suppose that the man called Kab bin al-Ashraf was indeed killed for > his speech. If that is the case, I would have no hesitation in saying that > the conduct of Muhammad demonstrates arrogance unbecoming (in this instance) > of a prophet committed to a vision of life based on peace and compassion. I > would have no hesitation in saying that exactly as in Rama's execution of > Shambuka, such an act would be, in my opinion, best described as - stupid, > arrogant and unwise. > > However, before jumping to conclusions, let us remember that the quran > speaks in more than one voice with regard to contempt, and about the efforts > by satirical poets to ridicule the prophet with their utterances. Allah > explicitly commands Muhammad to be patient towards those who speak ill of > him. In verse 28 for instance, we hear the following, and I quote : *"When > (the righteous) hear vain talk, they withdraw from it saying: 'Our deeds are > for us and yours for you; peace be on to you. We do not desire the way of > the ignorant'. . .O Prophet (Muhammad), you cannot give guidance to whom you > wish, it is God Who gives guidance to whom He pleases, and He is quite aware > of those who are guided."* (28:55-56) > > Muslims are also taught the tradition of the woman who would regularly > throw trash on the prophet as he walked down a particular path.The prophet > never responded in kind to the woman's abuse. Instead, when she one day > failed to attack him, he went to her home to inquire about her condition and > good health. > > So there are as many reliable accounts of Muhammad's forgiving nature as > there are of his vengeful, aggressive nature. A lot depends on what you > choose to believe. > > I am not a believer, so I do not need to make this choice. I am just as > willing to say that if the stories about vengefulness are taken at their > face value, then the conduct of the prophet can best be described as > unbecoming and arrogant, just as arrogant and unwise or stupid as Rama. If, > on the other hand, the stories about compassion, liberality and forgiveness > are to be believed, then, the prophet can be seen as an exemplar of how a > person should deal with hostility. Whatever be the case, I do not think that > the lives and reputations of interesting and exemplary men and women (and I > would count Muhammad as one such person, even though I am not a believer) > are diminished by the retention of our ability to be critical of them. > > As far as I know, Muhammad is not worshipped in the Islamicate tradition as > a deity. He is neither god, nor the son of god. he is merely god's > messenger. His actions are shown to be that of a mortal, (not divine) being. > They are exemplary, but in the end, fallible, even if he is seen and > portrayed as the best of men. He doubts himself, his followers are reported > on occasion as disagreeing with him. There is debate, disagreement, > discussion and dialogue. > > As far as I know, the Hindu traditions that encode the worship of Rama the > king of Ayodhya also deify him. In their eyes, he is god. And god can do no > wrong. Rama's occasional deviance from justice and ethics (such as in the > case of the slaying of Bali by deception) are in fact pointed out as > instances of divine exception, of the fact that one cannot judge gods and > men by the same ethical criteria. > God is not seen as capable of making mistakes and errors of judgement. > Otherwise he would not be divine. If Rama made mistakes he could not be > divine. If he is divine, he cannot make mistakes. > > Since I am not a believer in his divinity. I am free to see that he makes > mistakes. If you are a believer in his divinity, then that choice is not > available to you. > > And so, I can see that if Muhammad endorsed the assasination of Kab, then > that was clearly a mistake, an error born of arrogance, maybe even > stupidity. The difference is, In the case of Muhammad, I do not have to be a > hypothetical unbeliever to see this. > > In my opinion, It is perfectly possible to be a believing Muslim and to be > critical (notwithstanding what fundamentalists and idiotic zealots may tell > you) of some of Muhammad's actions, just as it is possible to be > appreciative of the vast majority of them. Muhammad himself is reported to > be admitting to the fact that occasionally he is in error. This is pointed > out to underscore the fact that he is mortal, not divine. His mortality and > his imperfections (arising from his humanity) are central to the Islamic > faith. To deny him his imperfection would be to attribute divinity to him, > and nothing can be closer to heresy than to attribute divinity to a human > being, no matter how expemplary that human being is or can be. > > I hope you have an answer to your question by now. > > best > > Shuddha > > > > > > > > IInder, > > > My question has still been left unanswered. Let me repeat it again ... > > " Would you dare to use the same language if we quote something from Holy > Quran and refer Prophet Mohammad [ pbuh] . > > Lat time i asked you the same question , i heard you had wet pants. > > Pawan > > > On 4/23/09, Inder Salim wrote: > > > I see it again through the eyes of a poet, here, valmiki himself, who > was not a favourite with the ruling elite of Dashratha's Kingdom, > but was deeply documenting all the happenings inside and outside the > palace. There was indeed political infighting between different wives > of the King Dashratha, and that has obviously let his 14 years exile > in the forests. How come, the pregnant Sita was helped by the poet > himself. It is all the great compassionate heart that brings out such > a fantastic human end to an epic, which is full of motherly love. I > believe, the poet Valmiki was transformed into a pregnant himself, and > that is why we all the reasons to respect the poet, the great valmiki, > the untouchable... > > Shamuka , say, imaginary character, but untouchable like the poet > himself, who was killed for no fault of his. And i believe the poet > has all the rights to express himself though a protagonist or a > character, > > See, Ved Vyas must have been a really romantic poet, and that is why > there is a long documentation of Krishna's adolescent life with other > village girls. > > so nothing derogatory about writing about it, if one has the sense of > humor and reasoning intact. > > with love and regards > inder salim > > > On Thu, Apr 23, 2009 at 8:00 PM, Pawan Durani > wrote: > > Dear Shuddha, > I am just curious . Would you dare to use the same language if we quote > something from Holy Quran and refer Prophet Mohammad [ pbuh] . > > > Lean to respect religion and faith. > > Pawan > > On Thu, Apr 23, 2009 at 4:33 AM, Shuddhabrata Sengupta < > > shuddha at sarai.net>wrote: > > > Is this character called Ram or Rama not the same arrogant king who > once killed a scholar called Shambuka > because he was found studying the scriptures. The crime being that > Shambuka was an untouchable and so could not touch the scriptures, > even with his mind. > > Would I want to live in a society where kings slaughter scholars for > the crime of their curiosity? No, I would not. I touch a lot of > stuff with my impure mind, and I want to live safe from stupid kings > who don't know better. I think we ought to be grateful that Ram Rajya > is as yet a distant dream of a lunatic fringe. Lets hope it stays > that way. > > best > > Shuddha > On 22-Apr-09, at 2:27 PM, Venugopalan K M wrote: > > "..."As to Rama Rajya, let it be remembered that Rama was kshatriya > > king who administered his subjects wth care and concern for public > opinion. A doubt about his own wife as expressed by a subject made him > take the harsh step to send his wife to the forests when she was > pregnent, to the Ashram. Todays leaders do not care for the public > opinion as much as they did , but generate public opinion thru media > and other means for their agendas, is my perception".." > > But that is excatly what I would rather take objection to not just > your concept of 'Rajya' but also its iconic hero, Ram. > Please excuse me when I say that this vulgar expression of > "prajahitham"(public opinion) against a poor woman is nothing > different from its newer versions of "hithams" of Sri Ram Senes! > > While it is repugnant to humanity, seen even by the standards of > ancient monarchy it is much more unacceptable to the standards of > human rights of our age. It would be a grave instance of atrocity > perpetrated against women with impunity by the kings in the name of > 'public opinion'. What sort of king was he to grow suspicious of the > chastity of his queen lived in forced exile , and yet to take recourse > to 'public opinion' (most probably manufactured) to justify throwing > her to fire? What bloody business this poor dhobi family had to > suspect Sita as a bad woman? In my understanding, this is nothing but > projection of source of one's own ill feeling to someone else, > skulking away from taking up the moral responsibility. The kind of > relationship the king had with the queen, perhaps might have gone to > deep trouble even otherwise. > > Well, this tendency to dupe people by spreading cock and bull stories > about dharma in an effort to justify the most grotesque violence > against women and the lower caste people might be part of the essence > of Ramarajya of the past as well as the present, and this is what many > people call Brahmanism. Whatever you call this, you are supporting > this and suggesting that 'Rama Rajya ' would help us cure of our ills. > The headache is yours and not of others who don't want to believe > these parables over laden with instruments of moral policing. > Regards, > Venu > . > > > > 22, 2009 at 11:40 AM, Rajen Uppinangadi > wrote: > > Hi, > > Venu; > > Such general sweeping comments do not hold water in pluralistic > society > like this free India. To condemn the "brahminical" thinking itself is > absurd, as brahminical way of thinking is for "sarve jana sukhino > bhavanthu, > in Vasudaiva kutumbakam. > > While it is true that in every faith, the women are subjugated, > denied > education and are less privileged with rights and the accent is > more on > their duties, it is absurd to say that hindu way of life > encourages such in > equality, for if it was so, gargi and maithreyi would not have had > the place > in the arguments for the society.The marad killings would not have > happened > when children and women were massacred in your backyard of Kerala. > Shah Bano > case would not have been the instance to talk about where > livelihood was > denied for a woman.Compared to other faiths, hindu way of life has > exceptional place for women in modern living, unlike taliban which > shoots > down the couple if found walking together, the mullas would not > proclaim > fathwas for the saving of a father for raping his own daughter. With > changing times, it is reforms that have taken place in hindu way > of life > from within religion rather than outside, thanks to persons like Raja > Rammohan Roy, Jyothi Phule , and many other reformists, in modern > times even > Ambedkar has contributed his might to reforms in the way society > treats the > oppressed. But the political will to reforms in society has to > come from > within the society as no amounts of laws can change as seen in > Dowry act, > and the dowry menace is flourishing in all faiths.In fact, the roman > catholic weddings in Kerala are notorious for the wedding and > lavish dory > angle to them, as clergy would bless the couple who part with > substantially > dirty, obscene amounts for such blessing of an arch bishop, as was > told to > me by a bishop friend. > > So, to generalise the menace of oppression only to one way of > life, hindu is > not only reflects the general trend of condemning whatever is > hindu, as > brahminical. As to Rama Rajya, let it be remembered that Rama was > kshatriya > king who administered his subjects wth care and concern for public > opinion. > A doubt about his own wife as expressed by a subject made him take > the harsh > step to send his wife to the forests when she was pregnent, to the > Ashram. > Todays leaders do not care for the public opinion as much as they > did , but > generate public opinion thru media and other means for their > agendas, is my > perception. > > Regards, > > Rajen. > > On Tue, Apr 21, 2009 at 5:50 PM, Venugopalan K M > > wrote: > > > Dear Rajen, > > By adopting such a position on Brahmanical and Brahmanism, one > will stand > to lose the very usefulness of this important concept. As you > were stating > it has less to do with propagating hate than understanding the > exceptionally > institutionalized and ritualized hate in the social and cultural > life of > India. > This is sure to raise lot of other questions: Why, for example > after the > happening of the Khairlanji in September 2006 {almost the entire > people of a > village participate in the act of parading naked,raping, > (women),killing and > mutilating the bodies of the 4 victims who were members of a > dalit family > (converted to Budhism) }, the entire media kept silence for about > one month? > So , an understanding of Brahmanism together with Brahmanical > ways of > thinking, not only does not talk of Brahmans as persons but > more as a > collective and typically negative attitude. It is characterized by > defending privileges with respect to the ascending order of caste > and > denying equality; significantly women of all castes are > automatically > considered inferior to their male counterparts(this is also seen > in every > other religion; but practices of cruelty to widows ,women not > giving birth > to to male offsprings, not able to consummate marriage etc,etc > are viewed > with special contempt in the brahmanical Hinduism).The extremely > negative > attitude to change or reform is a direct result of a desire to > protect the > system of privileges to the exclusion of others. These are > generally what > are considered as traits associated with > Brahmanism.Unfortunately, majority > of victims of this system of heirarchy are ideologically co-opted > to it; > they are not expected to doubt the system which is has been > taught to them > as divinely ordained.They are expected to just obey without > grumbles and > get better off in the future birth.(Chathrvarnam maya srushtam > guna karma > vibhagasa- The system has been created by me according to your > past karma > and your qualities and just do your caste-ordained duties-this is > the > message of Bhagvan in Gita (Ch IX verse 32 ?..I don't remember it > correctly) > I'm not suggesting that every person believing in the Hindu > scriptures and > the Gita would support mass murders and ritualistic killings of > dalits as > happened in khairlanji..not that the media always will attempt to > cover up > such incidents.To be certain, in the media controlled by the > upper caste > Hindus,there is always a tendency to underplay the unpleasant > factors > related with caste. Gandhi was a great admirer and interpretor of > Gita and > yet he was assassinated by Godse, who was a fanatic adherent of > Brahmanism.But even Gandhi believed in a Ramarajya of his own > notion..so are > the less enlightened 'Hindu' masses to a greater or lesser > degree in > denying equality to women and lower castes, the very victims of > discriminations included.Then, not to speak of the tendency to > resist > reservations and to monopolize knowledge and power by a minority. > Certainly, > the print media dominated by the upper caste plays a significant > role in > perpetuating the bias against the under privileged.The internet > and the > electronic media at a more globalized level, are able to > challenge this > privilege of the upper caste elites in significant ways. > Regards, > Venu. > > Regards, > Venu. > > > On Tue, Apr 21, 2009 at 4:31 PM, Rajen Uppinangadi > wrote: > > > Hi, > > Venu, > > List is at times, makes up for the surprise packages for all > with > undertones of "caste" and is casted with caste as theme of > hate, if one > post talks of twice born as brahmins, another talks of brahminical > domination of media, which are again myths to say the least, if > otherwise it > is meant to be "learned" are brahmins, knowledgeable "caste", > then may be > it is acceptable but still as we strive for togetherness above > the caste and > faith conundrums of hate, it is really ammusing that of all you > start with > this theme of hate on the basi of caste.? > > To illustrate, Mr. Kancha Illayya, regular columnist, who > takes up > issues of oppressed is a brahmin by his domination in media with > the issues, > just as sage Vishwamitra who gave the most potent manthra, > Gayathri, is > brahmin by his work, not by birth.? But contrary examples are > also are > visible in society, where by birth some are brahmins, but > behaviour is that > of worse than anyone, like the Dr. Murli manohar Joshi, in his > acts and > utterances.? Again, a journalist and lecturer in Physics., Dr. > Joshi, who > blindly follows the rituals without knowing the reasons behind > such rituals, > is again worse off even as brahmin born, as birth does not give > the right to > oppress others.? For example, the meaning of twice born is that > once the > child is born, at the tender age of around 12 years, he is vowed > to go for > higher studies to Benares, and the trip being in olden days, > hazardous, it > was presumed to be secong birth to undertake such a long journey > for > education, times have changed with chools imparting education at > hop, skip > and jump distances from homes these days.? > > As to media and media houses, most of them are run atleast in > Karnataka > by Idigas, or theeyas, or known in slang as toddy tappers, so > the education > has changed everything, let us come out of this caste fixation, > judge the > works rather than the caste.Visual media channels are again run by > individuals who know how to run the business with trps, news is > not what > viewers want, but what the channels dish out as views in news in > this age of > info-tainment. Otherwise how do you explain the anchors and > their behaviour > with type of presentation of "news" compared to western media, > where anchors > are better dressed with least exposure of made up face and bodies.? > > Regards, > > Rajen. > > > > > > -- > http://venukm.blogspot.com/ > > > > > > > -- > http://venukm.blogspot.com/ > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > subscribe in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> > > > Shuddhabrata Sengupta > The Sarai Programme at CSDS > Raqs Media Collective > shuddha at sarai.net > www.sarai.net > www.raqsmediacollective.net > > > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > subscribe in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> > > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > > subscribe in the subject header. > > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> > > > > > > -- > > http://indersalim.livejournal.com > > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > subscribe in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> > > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > subscribe in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> > > > Shuddhabrata Sengupta > The Sarai Programme at CSDS > Raqs Media Collective > shuddha at sarai.net > www.sarai.net > www.raqsmediacollective.net > > > From rajen882uppinangadi at gmail.com Fri Apr 24 13:53:47 2009 From: rajen882uppinangadi at gmail.com (Rajen Uppinangadi) Date: Fri, 24 Apr 2009 13:53:47 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Delay breeds corruption, EPIC cards and corruption, role of election commission in breeding corruption. In-Reply-To: <65be9bf40904232012r38dc4178mc25f745ad65e2996@mail.gmail.com> References: <61164a90904230445x7fac2107ped4f6d6349d4e7c7@mail.gmail.com> <65be9bf40904232012r38dc4178mc25f745ad65e2996@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <61164a90904240123p40eb1700ud32206653810d0ea@mail.gmail.com> Dear Taha, this epic drama has its own repurcussions in the society, to continue further with yesterdays experience at polling booth, average voting as per the election commission was just about 50 percent, but this election commission or media does not talk about 10 lakh voters in four parliamentary constituencies alone, of Bangalore, - north, south, central and rural, not been able to vote inspite of having the voters id, or epic cards. To my horror, I saw a bunch of women, all burqa clad, protesting against their name being not in the list, when I talked to them, they told me that they did not expect Jaffer Sharief to contest, so they did not "renew" their names.! In another area, dalits were protesting against not being allowed to vote, they were soo drunk, that when they were told that they had to go to the next booth, not the present one, their leaders demanded that they should be allowed to vote in the booth of their choice.! Then there were a few , who were working couples, who were not present when verification of the presence was done and hence eliminated from the list, even when they has epic with them.! Thus even if many wanted to vote, some wanted at the polling of their coice booth, some were mistakes from the officials of the election commission. Efficiency quotient of this commission is positively negative. Now as to your observations about two individuals, Prakash Javdekar and Priety Zinta, I do not know if they hve any personal interests to promote the NIC but for sure, I will not be surprised if they have, because it is big money, for anyone. Moot point is like laws are needed for the society, NIC is necessity for all citizens, but with so much staff sitting idle in government offices, putting their coats on the chairs, wasting time in canteens, it is better if they work for the NIC than out source the work.? Laws are there, but are often misused but that does not mean we should banish all laws. Same goes for NIC, the election commission has to work for the issue as they have all the computers, printers, scanners and lamination m/cs, why should they tender it to outsource ? As we have seen, public works dept, has all types of engineers, but not for working on the bridge or a road, but in nexus to kickbacks with private contractors.! Why should we have so many posts of engineers if they can't work on the job, only to prepare tender documents.? On Fri, Apr 24, 2009 at 8:42 AM, Taha Mehmood <2tahamehmood at googlemail.com>wrote: > Dear Rajen > > Thank you for taking the trouble of articulating your experiences with > regards to EPIC and writing a detail post. I think for all us in India, it > is a matter of utmost concern to not only make our voices heard but also > actively debate about the ongoing proposal of the central government to > introduce the national identity card. You point out the malaise of kickbacks > and so on while procuring an EPIC card. > > One of my point of concern has been with logistics of carrying out NID > exercise. All the state literature, policy papers etc has tried to sell the > idea of MNIC since last ten years. Which, to some, may look like a glorified > PR exercise. > > Why is it that of all the political parties, the BJP is so interested in > this issue, while others have remained mum? I think amongst the BJP's > politicians, I have observed Prakesh Jadveker voice the need for a national > identity card, the maximum number of times, I wonder why the BJP, which is > otherwise so quick to ask for a debate on issues of grave national > importance is not even hinting for a dialogue on this most crucial > citizenship document, which is a matter of concern to all Indians. > > In the similar vein, I find it extremely curious to find Preity Zinta talk > about MNIC on various public platforms. She has voiced her concerns on at > least three occasions in last three years, which makes it all the more > intriguing. Because if she is so convinced about the curative powers of MNIC > that past three years, she has not changed her position and if she believes > that such a technology would benefit an entire nation then, surely like any > responsible citizen, she must have critically looked at some literature on > identity cards which must have convinced her totally. What I find ironical > is that- any critical literature on identity documents is bound to inform us > about the untenability of such a document. Because conceptually the issue of > individual identity is unresolved. > > Therefore I wonder, Why is it that of all the bollywood starlets, she is > the sole one voicing a concern about the need to introduce MNIC? Whose > interests is she representing? Whose voice is she airing? > > Arguments like illegal immigration will be curbed, PDS will be distributed > swiftly, efficiently etc has been doled by politicians and state departments > of all hues to make a case for a technology which is shrouded in fundamental > conceptual mystery. > > I think it is a matter of utmost importance for us to press for a dialogue > and a public debate on this issue. EPIC was introduced in early nineties. > Before EPIC voter ID cards were manual documents. The argument for EPIC was > similar to the one which is peddled for MINC, that with a photo it would > easier to find a bogus voter and so on, like with MNIC, the government > officials claim that it would help weed out citizen from a non citizen. This > claim is far more easier said than done. Because in order to distribute a > MNIC card, one has to establish beyond the pale of reasonable doubt that a > person is eligible to be a citizen; in order to do so, one has to identify > the person as that particular person. Now there are a lot of people out > there who will have fake identity documents, who will filter through this > bureaucratic maze, like there would perhaps hundreds of thousands of real > Indians who will not have the requisite papers to authenticate a claim that > they are in fact who the say they are. > > In such a condition, I do not know how viable or valid would the > introduction of a new technology would be? On the other hand, when we know > that the election commission of India has, after eighteen years since the > introduction of EPIC, bought a little over a two thirds of eligible voters > into the fold of legibility, then I don't understand, why cannot the > responsibility of validating the citizenship of our entire nation, be not > given to EC? > > Why is there so much of haste to commit and distribute public monies of > the tune of hundreds of thousands of crores to these chip manufacturing > companies? > > I think, we need more public dialogue on this issue. > > Would we not, for instance, benefit as aware citizens, if we were know the > nature of the networks which exists between the bureaucracy, business > houses, technology related media and politicians? Are these invisible > networks not pushing for policy, for contracts, and for the re-distribution > of public monies in the name of peddling plastic tokens of citizenship? > > Regards > > Taha > From shuddha at sarai.net Fri Apr 24 14:10:15 2009 From: shuddha at sarai.net (Shuddhabrata Sengupta) Date: Fri, 24 Apr 2009 14:10:15 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Slavery and Islam. In-Reply-To: <61164a90904232357q2efef9c1ja5f30a982a309df0@mail.gmail.com> References: <61164a90904232357q2efef9c1ja5f30a982a309df0@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <934F82F5-5377-4686-96A8-32E96DC877DC@sarai.net> I really appreciate what Rajen has written about faith and convictions as lighthouses which show rock formations. And I agree that we could all (myself included) be more sensitive in the way we refer to faith, (or the lack of it) so that we do not jeopardize tomorrow in the name of a distant past that none of us have any way of being certain about. So, a genuine and big thank you, Rajen for your words of sanity best Shuddha On 24-Apr-09, at 12:27 PM, Rajen Uppinangadi wrote: > None of us have seen the actuality of any > events but we add our pourings to spoil the perfect today and ruin the > tomorrow of the next generation, forgetting that these faiths are > only like > Light houses in the ocean, which show the rock formations in ocean > of life > journey, take it leave it, for the safe journey, but to argue that > this > light house has better light or the other light house is the only > saviour is > not very intellectual achievement, but greed to propagate the faith > and thus > dominate the society with numerical strength of the followers.! Shuddhabrata Sengupta The Sarai Programme at CSDS Raqs Media Collective shuddha at sarai.net www.sarai.net www.raqsmediacollective.net From kuhutanvir at gmail.com Fri Apr 24 15:14:17 2009 From: kuhutanvir at gmail.com (Kuhu Tanvir) Date: Fri, 24 Apr 2009 15:14:17 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Wide Screen cinema journal Message-ID: Wide Screen inaugural issue is now online. Wide Screen is a peer-reviewed, open access journal. It is devoted to the critical study of cinema from historical, theoretical, political, and aesthetic perspectives. With radical changes in the modes of production, distribution, and exhibition, the journal aims to combine the best of academic and journalistic critique of cinema to inform readers about the various critical vantage points from which to understand cinema in this dynamic environment. Go to http://widescreenjournal.org/index.php/journal/issue/view/1/showToc In this issue: Essays Introduction Kishore Budha Nation, Liberalisation And Film Songs: Technology And Hybridisation In Contemporary Hindi Film Music Aniruddha Dutta Guess Who’s Off The Hook: Inventing Interracial Coupling In Global Art Cinema Jayson Baker The Paradox Of Transvestism In Tim Burton’s Ed Wood Deborah Mellamphy The Significance Of The Queer And The Dog In Alejandro González Iñárritu’s Amores Perros (2000): A Masculinity At War Orla Juliette Borreye The Monstrous Masculine: Abjection And Todd Solondz's Happiness Adam P Wadenius Genre-%!$?Ing: Harmony Korine’s Cinema Of Poetry Tom Austin O'Connor Close-up on the Colony: Inside History, Through the Camera Lens Megha Anwer The Poetry Of Reversibility And The Other In The English Patient Gerry Coulter Caché and the Secret Image Kartik Nair Pan’s Labyrinth: The Labyrinth of History Kuhu Tanvir Unheard Screams And Silent Acceptance: Modern Indian Cinematic Representations Of Subaltern Women Rajiv Kannan Menon Interviews Interview: Christine Hakim Kuhu Tanvir Interview: Hana Makhmalbaf Kishore Budha Interview: Eran Riklis Kuhu Tanvir Interview: Pritish Nandy Kishore Budha Interview: Omar Ali Khan Kishore Budha Interview: Ralf Christensen Yang Hu Film Reviews Review: Lemon Tree Kuhu Tanvir Review: I'm Not There Kuhu Tanvir Review: Haute Tension/Switchblade Romance Paul Taylor From rakesh.rnbdj at gmail.com Fri Apr 24 17:13:49 2009 From: rakesh.rnbdj at gmail.com (Rakesh Iyer) Date: Fri, 24 Apr 2009 17:13:49 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] 'Report based on SIT findings' In-Reply-To: References: <85a3156a0904181002i7fa2e6p2e67c4e445bdaf2d@mail.gmail.com> <756023.61048.qm@web57204.mail.re3.yahoo.com> <341380d00904190352x39a7185au587dadf98889a5b3@mail.gmail.com> <6353c690904190504l328c60afx559d9d804be74713@mail.gmail.com> <341380d00904190517m423fed1cq675d8e9002920802@mail.gmail.com> <6353c690904190714v68bfa249secf95845e71fd858@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: Dear all Well, there was lot said about the SIT report. And what's more, now the SC has been angry about the leaks of the report. Probably our Dhananjay jee should have taken care, so also the SIT. After all, whether you publish excerpts from the report or make the entire report public, both are wrong. http://www.hindustantimes.com/StoryPage/StoryPage.aspx?sectionName=HomePage&id=954c5708-79ee-47d0-8272-795b79946cd5&Headline=Gujarat+riots+witnesses+not+tutored%3a+SIT So first of all, the TOI should apologise to the nation and the SC for having leaked the report in this manner. Secondly, as I said, let the court decide what it thinks is right for the moment. If they still make the wrong decision, then we the people of India can take them on. Regards Rakesh From pkray11 at gmail.com Fri Apr 24 17:18:17 2009 From: pkray11 at gmail.com (prakash ray) Date: Fri, 24 Apr 2009 17:18:17 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Help!!!? Message-ID: <98f331e00904240448g209e76aawe8c149fbc423f15c@mail.gmail.com> Dear Rajen, I read your enlightened post about JNU. However, I feel that you must write clearly and with some amount of substance. What and how you know about the university? How many faculty, students leaders and students you know on the campus? And what you want to say? Instead of writing a thousand posts, I request you to write one post making some sense. PKR From indersalim at gmail.com Fri Apr 24 18:25:20 2009 From: indersalim at gmail.com (Inder Salim) Date: Fri, 24 Apr 2009 18:25:20 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Slavery and Islam. In-Reply-To: <934F82F5-5377-4686-96A8-32E96DC877DC@sarai.net> References: <61164a90904232357q2efef9c1ja5f30a982a309df0@mail.gmail.com> <934F82F5-5377-4686-96A8-32E96DC877DC@sarai.net> Message-ID: <47e122a70904240555w2ce22394mfd93316c9ecefe86@mail.gmail.com> Dear Rajan since we all break the chain of discussion and suddenly jump to post afresh, i had to search what i had written earlier, but i saw nothing obscure, if not poetic, in my latest reflection. and wondered what you meant that my poems turn into deserts when it comes it Islam. Perhaps, i am not communicating, quite possible. far from being a poet, i feel it is requires a big heart to claim to be one, i never claimed, but yes, i do often end my reflections and posts with love, and that is what i mean, it must be love with some urgency of the the understanding of present, that i believe may generate some meaning from all these debates. What else, .... what we finally want from this List even, if not restoration of sensibilities, or dissolution of the same, earnestly, so, your reflection to that, and rightly appreciated by Shuddha, is what i meant in my earlier posts also, that how to see the scriptures as art works, intuitionally imaginative, or compositions by poets which you call light houses. Here, faith comes in, and inevitability of interpreters who twist, wittingly or unwittingly , and accordingly we have this 'difference' which even gives birth to the other and our necessity to engage her/him on what is given about that. That is our present, right. So, there must be myriad ways of approaches to bring out that embrace between the two. So, if i emphasize on this imperative, then i must have never said that this lighthouse has better light than the other ligththouse, They both have light, or even holding even some darkness withing their opaque formation of blinding light. i am perhaps. looking for some cool light, which is simple and less sophisticated, and that is why i am lazy not to learn Arabic or Sanskrit. any way, that is that i remember, Ghalib, again, which you might like, Nafsay-Kais ki hay chasmay chirogo sehra, ghar nahain shamah siyah khanaya laila, na sahi ( the deep desire of kais,( manjnoon ) is the light and eye of the deserts, no worry, if the candle has failed to illuminate the dark chamber of liala, ) a very rough translation. what i mean, by quoting here, is that the intention of my desire to spread love amongst all is truly the eye and light of this desert like world, my inner desert like world too, not only the gulf, where most of the Islam flourished, but the whole humanity which cherished the thought of that love... which even enhanced Mystic thoughts, and yes, we all, including you, as lovers of that human subjectivity, are somehow on the receiving end, so what if we fail to communicate some times, that too is human... but let us say yes, to love with love inder salim On Fri, Apr 24, 2009 at 2:10 PM, Shuddhabrata Sengupta wrote: > I really appreciate what Rajen has written about faith and > convictions as lighthouses which show rock formations. And I agree > that we could all (myself included) be more sensitive in the way we > refer to faith, (or the lack of it) so that we do not jeopardize > tomorrow in the name of a distant past that none of us have any way > of being certain about. > > So, a genuine and big thank you, Rajen for your words of sanity > > best > > Shuddha > > On 24-Apr-09, at 12:27 PM, Rajen Uppinangadi wrote: > >> None of us have seen the actuality of any >> events but we add our pourings to spoil the perfect today and ruin the >> tomorrow of the next generation, forgetting that these faiths are >> only like >> Light houses in the ocean, which show the rock formations in ocean >> of life >> journey, take it leave it, for the safe journey, but to argue that >> this >> light house has better light or the other light house is the only >> saviour is >> not very intellectual achievement, but greed to propagate the faith >> and thus >> dominate the society with numerical strength of the followers.! > > Shuddhabrata Sengupta > The Sarai Programme at CSDS > Raqs Media Collective > shuddha at sarai.net > www.sarai.net > www.raqsmediacollective.net > > > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with subscribe in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> -- http://indersalim.livejournal.com From phadkeshilpa at gmail.com Fri Apr 24 18:23:33 2009 From: phadkeshilpa at gmail.com (Shilpa Phadke) Date: Fri, 24 Apr 2009 18:23:33 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Who is the Sleaziest of Them All? Message-ID: A piece on Mumbai Mirror and other newspapers skewed reportage on the case of the sexual assault of a student. http://youngfeminists.wordpress.com/2009/04/24/who-is-the-sleaziest-of-them-all/ From rahul_capri at yahoo.com Fri Apr 24 18:46:23 2009 From: rahul_capri at yahoo.com (Rahul Asthana) Date: Fri, 24 Apr 2009 06:16:23 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Reader-list] mohammad etc In-Reply-To: <65be9bf40904231859k1099ea99od5873faae3a40f1e@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <595315.35517.qm@web53604.mail.re2.yahoo.com> Dear Taha, IMHO, the ridiculousness of Sandeep's post was self-evident and deliberate.He was probably making fun of the seriousness and diligence with which we were debating and defending the honor of our Gods and prophets. Hope that helps. Thanks Rahul --- On Fri, 4/24/09, Taha Mehmood <2tahamehmood at googlemail.com> wrote: > From: Taha Mehmood <2tahamehmood at googlemail.com> > Subject: Re: [Reader-list] mohammad etc > To: rahul_capri at yahoo.com > Cc: "Sarai Reader-list" > Date: Friday, April 24, 2009, 7:29 AM > Dear Rahul, > > May I ask what is it that you find so 'refreshing' > in this stale > pronouncement. I am curious to know whether Sandeep wrote > from a deep sense > of conviction? I would be glad if you were to elaborate on > the 'refreshing' > nature Sandeep's observations with annotations from all > the relevant texts > because it would make us understand your point of view > better. > > Even insofar as your 'refreshing' theory is > concerned I am not sure whether > you will be able to stand by Sandeep's convictions, on > all public platforms, > would you? > > And if you so choose, then please allow me to give you, all > of my best > wishes!! > > Taha From 2tahamehmood at googlemail.com Fri Apr 24 23:47:17 2009 From: 2tahamehmood at googlemail.com (Taha Mehmood) Date: Fri, 24 Apr 2009 19:17:17 +0100 Subject: [Reader-list] Delay breeds corruption, EPIC cards and corruption, role of election commission in breeding corruption. In-Reply-To: <61164a90904240123p40eb1700ud32206653810d0ea@mail.gmail.com> References: <61164a90904230445x7fac2107ped4f6d6349d4e7c7@mail.gmail.com> <65be9bf40904232012r38dc4178mc25f745ad65e2996@mail.gmail.com> <61164a90904240123p40eb1700ud32206653810d0ea@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <65be9bf40904241117p492d143dp3b214241d3a5c264@mail.gmail.com> Dear Rajen, I think any mass based exercise which involves almost 700 million people is bound to result in some inconveniences. This is understandable. So a bunch of drunk dalits here or some burqa clad women there will not make much of a difference to the overall elections. At best one can conclude that such events happen because of the lack of alertness on behalf of the individual. I do not think that it is government of India's fault that only 50% of all the eligible voters voted in the second phase of general elections. There were instances of nil voting in several booths in Karnataka. One can only interpret this as voter apathy and nothing else. Anyways. Regarding MNIC. I do not think that as citizens we are in position to do wishful thinking about MNIC. I think this decision is for the policy makers and the politicians to take. As citizens our role is different. Our role is to ask questions. Take our responsibility in our own hands. Generate dialogue. Create conditions for a public debate. As I have said earlier, I would unhesitatingly go for a MNIC card, if my government decides to go for a national roll out. My position has not changed. I have a driving licence, a voter ID card, a passport and inshalllah I will have MNIC too, if that is going to be the case. That aside. Now regarding the broad picture concerning a national identity card, I want to put to use, my role as a citizen to ask questions. -How does the government of India plans to identify -citizens-, when we in India have a presence of a huge amount of transient population, undocumented population, and invisible population? Almost 300-400 million people. -How will the data so collected be used? -How can we (citizens of India) ensure that the highly sensitive personal data which we will share with the government like finger biometrics, bank account details, land records and so on will be put to just use? -Will the government of India subcontract the issuance of MNIC to private sector? What will be the terms of such a contract? -What is the time frame of such an exercise? How much money will be required? -Has the Government of India made some policy regarding MNIC? If yes, then what is the nature of such a policy? What is advantages of such a policy? What are its drawbacks? Why are policy documents regarding MNIC not made public? Why is NICNET website on MNIC is still -under construction- even after five years of introduction of MNIC program? - IS there any other way wherein the Government can document the entire country while using Existing technologies? which will certainly involve less public money. What happened to the very INDIAN attitude of Jugaad and re-use? I think you make an interesting point that why can't government servants in other department be pooled for the census survey, I agree with you, however, I do not think that any Government can override itself by ignoring departmental boundaries. There are certain procedures which are binding in departmental matters and no government can ignore them. For us, the people of this country, the task at hand, is to is play the role of citizens. Which explicitly requires, that we ask questions. Because not only does MNIC involves a huge amount of public money but also after its implementation it will have an impact on our day to day living and even in the manner we interact with each other as a society. Regards Taha From rashneek at gmail.com Sat Apr 25 09:09:41 2009 From: rashneek at gmail.com (rashneek kher) Date: Sat, 25 Apr 2009 09:09:41 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Twenty Years of Absence-in Greater Kashmir Message-ID: <13df7c120904242039r43e95a07heb94fe234c1e4e36@mail.gmail.com> Come Spring and small streams emanating out of Doodh Ganga would be full of water and the perennial brook near my home would be enticing small boys to its muddy banks. The willows will be in a new green hue while the solitary apple tree in my courtyard would be quietly awaiting the arrival of its fruits of labour. Swarms of men and women would be ready for “thal” or sowing of the paddy saplings. People would dig small pipe like canals from the flowing streams to their fields. There would be minor quarrels among people as they jostle for water. But all that would be amicably settled. Chirping birds would fly down to pick insects from the freshly ploughed soil. Young girls would carry samovars full of hot salt tea and bagfuls of bread to their family members working in the fields. The teachers would have it easy though. A ready stock of students would be eager to work on their fields in hope of a mass promotion to the next grade. My village, would hear women sing in mesmerizing tones Rasul Mir’s “Hariye thavak na kan ti lolo”. The mild sun would shine over my small, non- descript village Kanipora. I was seven when the elders of our house decided to sell our ancestral house at 10, Qutubdin Pora, Ali Kadal, Srinagar and move to a new location on the outskirts of the city. There was a deep sense of loss as the truck moved out of the narrow downtown lanes to the wider roads leading out of the city. I thought of Sallam the butcher, Kare Kon the local candy man, the flowing Vitasta ,the Batyaar Mandir, Rishi Peers Aastan and the avuncular saint Rahbab Saheb. I would miss them all, I thought. These were the by-lanes, the narrow by-lanes where we lived among Nawchis. Sultans, Patigaroo’s ,Dar’s, Hagar’s and Kaul’s. Then of course there was a man who seemed like a lunatic to all of us; someone who would have tea in a 5kg P-Mark Tin and share his Tale-vor (a local variety of Kashmiri bread) with dogs. He was called Hone-Rahman. No one knew where he came from. I was scared yet fond of him. It was him who I was to miss the most. I was now a student of The New Cambridge Public School (later re-christened as Angels Garden) the only English medium school in the entire village. The school was housed in an old dilapidated building near the saw mill not very far from the main bus stand, not that there was any other bus stand in or around our village. Kanipora was a block in the Chadoora Tehsil of Budgam district of Kashmir subdivision of Jammu and Kashmir. It had a non working post office, a branch of State Bank of India, an Elaqaui Dehati Bank, a Boys High School, a Middle school for girls, a terrible primary healthcare centre and a very bad road connecting Kanipora to Kralpora-an equally small village on the main road to Char-e-Sharief .It was on this bad road that we had our new house-a palatial house compared to the concrete pigeon hole called a flat, that I live in now. The new house was bereft of any living neighbours. The only other house around was a huge house across the small brook. The owners, we were told were too scared to live in that house. This is a haunted house they would say. One of their cousins, a short man with a beard would come to visit the house from time to time. His name was Khursheed and he was a probably a teacher in one of the Government schools in Srinagar. But Srinagar was far now, thirteen kilometres from the main bus stand and fourteen from our home. The new house had a brook for running water and toilets were still a luxury. Endless vast expanse of green surrounded us and some hundred meters behind us was a small cremation ground. That seemed to be the only companion and neighbour that we had till a Peer Sahib with his three sons started building a house near the grazing field. The village had walnut trees, chinars, poplars, willows and yes it grew some strawberries and saffron too. The village Moqadam was a pious man called Rasul Daar. He was a man with a great sense of humour and would often laugh at his own self. It was his grandson who was to be my best pal, my alter ego in times to come. It has been long; I have seen Yaseen or heard from him. I write this in hope that he may read it and get in touch with me. We would attend tuitions together in Nawab Bazzar where my uncle would teach us Mathematics. Another of my friends Ashwani met me here in Delhi after a gap of seventeen years. It was a tearful re-union as we talked about our common past, the village swamp and our uncertain future. Two of them, me, Mushtaq, Shafiq, Ameen and my younger brother Rinku would play cricket on Motilal Khar’s land, the land he was planning to build a house on after his spinster brother’s death. Neither did Mohan Lal die in Kashmir nor did Moti Lal ever make a house. There was a family of Thokur’s pronounced locally as Thukre who lived in a dark lane near the biggest apple orchard of the village. The families of two brothers lived in a wood house with freshly painted wooden stairs and a big courtyard. The house was a picture of prosperity in an otherwise no so rich village. One early morning the elder Thukre and his wife were seen leaving the village, their only belonging being the metal trunk painted light green overall with purple coloured leaves and flowers adorning its borders. His unceremonious departure was talked about in hushed tones in the village. None had a clue where he would head to and none ever knew where he went. After a few days of his exodus no one even mentioned a word about him. Ramzan Thukre’s son Farooq, my junior in my school was now the only inheritor to the property of Thukrs. I am sure the village would have changed now. The Railway Line might have changed the fortunes of the people who owned some land in the vicinity of the rail tracks. I just hope they haven’t cut the chinars of the village. The three Chinars near the green coloured mosque where the rivulet and the road take a bend are keepers of my yesteryears’ secrets. The second of the three Chinars, yes the one in the centre was already beginning to show signs of hollowness in late eighties. Is it still alive? Twenty years is a long time. Ghlam Nabi the tailor must have grown old and his brother Wosta Ali must have excelled further in the art of masonry. The three shops near the Pomegranate orchard must have become more now. Would they still be selling Thoole Mithae ,I wonder. There must be no Prabha School anymore. Incidentally I could not attend Prabhawati’s funeral in Jammu. Men and women would now be returning to their homes after a hard days’ work. They would soon fall asleep. The night sets in early at my village. Far away someone is singing….Mae Chu basan mae ma gache shaam vatey. *(Rashneek Kher)* -- Rashneek Kher http://www.kashmiris-in-exile.blogspot.com http://www.nietzschereborn.blogspot.com From kshmendra2005 at yahoo.com Sat Apr 25 13:55:30 2009 From: kshmendra2005 at yahoo.com (Kshmendra Kaul) Date: Sat, 25 Apr 2009 01:25:30 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Reader-list] Fwd: Fw: Complaint against DNA's coverage of recent rape case in Mumbai In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <268259.58637.qm@web57207.mail.re3.yahoo.com> The following comment posted by me has been uploaded by DNA on it's website   """"" The title used by DNA, 'Why was she with six men that night?' is disgusting. A disgusting act by DNA. It is not attributed as a quote to Soni's lawyer. It is also not suggested that such a question was implied in the statement made by Soni's lawyer (eg: rape suspect's lawyer questions why the victim was with six men). The title, therefore, presents itself as a question being asked by DNA (Divyesh Singh & Menaka Rao). Shame on all of you for such disgusting insensitivity.""""""   http://www.dnaindia.com/report.asp?newsid=1249292     K --- On Thu, 4/23/09, Shilpa Phadke wrote: From: Shilpa Phadke Subject: [Reader-list] Fwd: Fw: Complaint against DNA's coverage of recent rape case in Mumbai To: "reader-list at sarai.net" , iradcrea at yahoogroups.com, vikalp at yahoogroups.com, "Birth India" Date: Thursday, April 23, 2009, 1:44 PM Please see Bishakha's email below and do write to DNA at the email address: inbox at dnaindia.net The more letters they get the more likely that they will actually pay attention! Shilpa ---------- Forwarded message ---------- From: Bishakha Datta Date: 2009/4/23 Subject: Fw: Complaint against DNA's coverage of recent rape case in Mumbai To: After seeing this on the DNA website, I have sent the letter below to DNA - got the correct address for letters from a reporter there. If you too would like to write to them, the address is: inbox at dnaindia.net. My letter below. Bishakha Is it right to blame rape victims for the attacks? Wednesday, April 22, 2009 21:46 IST The age-old debate has been sparked again by the alleged gang rape of a 23-year-old American woman studying at the Tata Institute of Social Sciences, Mumbai. You may also want to see *TISS gangrape case: Soni sent in police custody till May 3 *Why was she with six men that night? *TISS rape: Cops comb country for 6th suspect *Two more held in TISS gangrape case Some people have suggested that the woman invited the crime with her 'loose' behaviour (read: staying out late at night and drinking with a group of men who were supposedly friends of a friend). Questions have also been raised about why she did not lodge a complaint immediately on leaving the house where she claims the crime took place, and why she agreed to take an emergency contraceptive pill afterwards. Irrespective of the legal merits of the case, where do you stand in this debate? Do you think the victim also bears some responsibility for the crime? Is rape the price to be paid for trust or naivete, or plain stupidity? What about a woman's right to say no? ----- Original Message ----- *From:* Bishakha Datta *To:* inbox at dnaindia.net *Sent:* Thursday, April 23, 2009 1:17 PM *Subject:* Complaint against DNA's coverage of recent rape case in Mumbai Dear Sir, Is DNA trying to ensure that the American woman from TISS who was raped does NOT get justice? I want to draw your attention to two reports about the TISS case on www.dnaindia.com today: 1) Why was she with six men that night? Divyesh Singh & Menaka Rao dated Wed 21 April 2009 at http://www.dnaindia.com/report.asp?newsid=1249292 2) ‘Is it right to blame rape victims for the attacks?’ as a topic of ‘debate’ for the ‘Speak Up’ column at http://www.dnaindia.com/report.asp?newsid=1249873 *No 1) Why was she with sex men that night?* is a clear case of biased one-sided reporting. It is based solely on the statements and anticipatory bail application of Vinamra Soni and on an interview with his lawyer. The main aim of all these comments is to cast doubt and aspersions on the woman’s testimony and secure bail for Soni. Why is DNA playing into or taking sides on this? This is not fair, balanced or ethical reporting. *No 2)** **‘Is it right to blame rape victims for the attacks?’* is not an appropriate debate topic. Rape is coerced sex; a crime. Only perpetrators can be held responsible for the crimes they commit - not victims. How is it that victims of any other crime are never blamed, but that rape victims are always suspected of triggering rape? People who are robbed murdered or otherwise assaulted are never held responsible - nor is robbery murder or assault considered 'the price to be paid for trust or naivete or plain stupidity.' One can debate opinion; one cannot debate fact. Rape is, in fact, a crime. Period. There are no two opinions around this. Debate topics like this – combined with coverage titled ‘Why was she with six men that night?’ bias public and judicial opinion. They are speculative, sensational and biased. Coverage like this will make it impossible for the American student from TISS to fight for justice on a level playing field. Please withdraw this as a ‘Speak Up’ topic of debate with immediate effect – and ensure that future coverage of such cases is balanced and ethical. Bishakha Datta Executive Director Point of View www.pointofview.org _________________________________________ reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. Critiques & Collaborations To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with subscribe in the subject header. To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> From rajen882uppinangadi at gmail.com Sat Apr 25 14:17:36 2009 From: rajen882uppinangadi at gmail.com (Rajen Uppinangadi) Date: Sat, 25 Apr 2009 14:17:36 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Delay breeds corruption, EPIC cards and corruption, role of election commission in breeding corruption. In-Reply-To: <65be9bf40904241117p492d143dp3b214241d3a5c264@mail.gmail.com> References: <61164a90904230445x7fac2107ped4f6d6349d4e7c7@mail.gmail.com> <65be9bf40904232012r38dc4178mc25f745ad65e2996@mail.gmail.com> <61164a90904240123p40eb1700ud32206653810d0ea@mail.gmail.com> <65be9bf40904241117p492d143dp3b214241d3a5c264@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <61164a90904250147v34e9db34i33a304baf3882916@mail.gmail.com> Dear Taha, you have made very important and substantial points in the issue of NIC, very much appreciate them and the concern of the citizens as to use and misuse of these cards have to be debated and addressed to, by policy makers, truely, it is stupendous task for any nation with the size of the population that free India has to address these issues of citizenship, privacy of citizens, strict control over the information gathered, identification of citizens, , who are citizens by birth, who are naturalised, who are "illegal" by present laws in force etc. Moreover as we as citizens are part and parcel of the system of governance have duties to get the ruke of laws in place starting from ourselves, and as you rightly said, in many cases , the voters have failed to take proper steps till the nth minute to get their right to vote. But more importantly, it is both the citizens and EC which has not has had and shown keen- ness to implement the epic in a systematic way. Many cases where the epics were deleted , were sheer due to over hype in media that there are lakhs of bogus voters.! But funnily, bogus voters remained, genuine voters eliminated as in the case of twins, Veena and Vani, who look similar in photos, so the official thought it was a case of duplication, even with ground report that the girla were twins in the same house..! As to low percentage of voting there are basically three issues here, according to my perception, one is "that all politicians are the same, " type of view, where voter feels that he has to work for his survival and essentials whoever may come to power, it makes little difference for his life, thus cynically keeps away from booth. secondly, the attitude that my one vote can not change anything, so let me have a holiday, not the hot summer outing to poll booth type of approach. Lastly, the lots of dissenting workers of different parties who had to see the candidates who were in different parties till last minute, now contesting from diagnally opposit standpoint, which has given rise to dissent in all the parties.Such preferred not to go to polling booth at all. I agree with you, that NIC is costly affair from national exchequer lots of funds will go for this exercise, but issue here is, rules are made so that all citizens can have orderly, systmatic life, rules are for making life convenient to all citizens, such being the case why the rules should cause inconvenience to all citizens when the officials get away with lazy office hours with no work./less work. If one observes todays generation working in shifts including grave yard shifts, we understand the work in IT, ITES and how demanding is that work, hence rewarding remuneration for the work put in.Any way, more importantly, we have to understand that implementation of any policy in correct method is more important that policy itself. Regards, Rajen. On Fri, Apr 24, 2009 at 11:47 PM, Taha Mehmood <2tahamehmood at googlemail.com>wrote: > Dear Rajen, > > I think any mass based exercise which involves almost 700 million people is > bound to result in some inconveniences. This is understandable. So a bunch > of drunk dalits here or some burqa clad women there will not make much of a > difference to the overall elections. At best one can conclude that such > events happen because of the lack of alertness on behalf of the individual. > > I do not think that it is government of India's fault that only 50% of all > the eligible voters voted in the second phase of general elections. There > were instances of nil voting in several booths in Karnataka. One can only > interpret this as voter apathy and nothing else. Anyways. > > Regarding MNIC. I do not think that as citizens we are in position to do > wishful thinking about MNIC. I think this decision is for the policy makers > and the politicians to take. As citizens our role is different. Our role is > to ask questions. Take our responsibility in our own hands. Generate > dialogue. Create conditions for a public debate. > > As I have said earlier, I would unhesitatingly go for a MNIC card, if my > government decides to go for a national roll out. My position has not > changed. I have a driving licence, a voter ID card, a passport and > inshalllah I will have MNIC too, if that is going to be the case. > > That aside. Now regarding the broad picture concerning a national identity > card, I want to put to use, my role as a citizen to ask questions. > > -How does the government of India plans to identify -citizens-, when we in > India have a presence of a huge amount of transient population, undocumented > population, and invisible population? Almost 300-400 million people. > > -How will the data so collected be used? > > -How can we (citizens of India) ensure that the highly sensitive personal > data which we will share with the government like finger biometrics, bank > account details, land records and so on will be put to just use? > > -Will the government of India subcontract the issuance of MNIC to private > sector? What will be the terms of such a contract? > > -What is the time frame of such an exercise? How much money will be > required? > > -Has the Government of India made some policy regarding MNIC? If yes, then > what is the nature of such a policy? What is advantages of such a policy? > What are its drawbacks? Why are policy documents regarding MNIC not made > public? Why is NICNET website on MNIC is still -under construction- even > after five years of introduction of MNIC program? > > - IS there any other way wherein the Government can document the entire > country while using Existing technologies? which will certainly involve less > public money. What happened to the very INDIAN attitude of Jugaad and > re-use? > > I think you make an interesting point that why can't government servants in > other department be pooled for the census survey, I agree with you, however, > I do not think that any Government can override itself by ignoring > departmental boundaries. There are certain procedures which are binding in > departmental matters and no government can ignore them. > > For us, the people of this country, the task at hand, is to is play the > role of citizens. Which explicitly requires, that we ask questions. Because > not only does MNIC involves a huge amount of public money but also after its > implementation it will have an impact on our day to day living and even in > the manner we interact with each other as a society. > > Regards > > Taha > > > > > > > From pawan.durani at gmail.com Sat Apr 25 14:28:02 2009 From: pawan.durani at gmail.com (Pawan Durani) Date: Sat, 25 Apr 2009 14:28:02 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Early Kashmiri Society & The Challenge of Islam-I Message-ID: <6b79f1a70904250158i3d1aa78ck90ea48ceb9a41481@mail.gmail.com> Early Kashmiri Society & The Challenge of Islam-I Dr. S.S. Toshkhani Prefatory Exploring what kind a society existed in Kashmir before the advent of Islam is a very interesting but also a challenging task. How was it organized ? What were its institutions, its belief systems and traditions, its values and ideals ? To know this in full and exact detail, we have but fragmentary and scattered sources of information available to us. Buried beneath a several kilometer long embankment running across the Dal Lake in Srinagar are hundreds and thousands of ancient manuscripts that could have provided us with a wealth of evidence. But they seem to be irretrievably lost. All is not lost though. On the basis of still extant source materials: pioneering work of treat value has been done in the recent decades by erudite scholars like Dr. Ved Kumari Ghai, Dr. S.C. Ray and Ajay Mitra Shastri to prepare a coherent and connected account of ancient Kashmir’s social and cultural life. Yet the field of investigation is so vast, and the available evidence so limited, that there still remain large areas which are unexplored and unlimited Furthermore, the studies- of these scholars seem to suffer from a certain lack of perspective and orientation, based as they are on the Western lndoiogists’ line of approach consisting of too literal an interpretation of myth. The immediate necessity, therefore, is for someone to carry the work of the pioneering scholars further on, and to offer fresh perspectives and new insights into things. It is a colossal exercise. It is extremely important to trace the genesis and evolution of Kashmiri society from the earliest times in view of attempts being made by some people to present the entire pre-Islamic past of the valley as one long period of darkness. A lot of mischief has been done by those who in the garb of historiographers are using negativist and reductionist tactics to suppress what is true and suggest what is false. They have mined the whole area of historical investigation with numerous falsehoods and fact distortions. These shall, therefore, have to be cleared from the path of our vision so that it will be possible for us to see and place things in a clear and correct perspective. At the outset, we must understand that when we talk of early Kashmiri society, we do not mean thereby any particular racial or ethnic group. Several such groups - Manvas, Nagas, Pishachas and others have come together in some distant pre-historic past to give shape to this society. Their mixing and commingling is commemorated in the Nilamata Purana, a 6th or 7th century text in Sanskrit which gives Kashmir’s own creation legend. According to this Purana, gods intervened to reclaim the Himalayan Valley from the waters of a primordial lake that filled it. Killing the demon who infested the lake, they drained away the water at the request of Rishi Kashyapa, preceptor and progenitor par excellence, who took the initiative in populating the land thus reclaimed. But there was a hiccup. The Nagas, resented Kashyapa’s recommendation of allowing Manavas (descendents of Manu) cohabit with them. They had second thoughts as soon as an enraged Kashyapa gave them the option of having to live with the “terrible” Pischachas. In the end we find all the elements that constituted the ancient population of Kashmir living together in a spirit of harmony and cordiality, following the instructions of, the Naga king, Nila. These instructions, as we see, concern performance of certain rites and ceremonies, which for the most part are quite similar to those prescribed in other Puranas, except in case of a few rites related to Naga worship. The Nilamata Purana is a record of their coming together, a process which must have taken centuries of assimilation. On its pages we see the earliest contours of a Kashmiri society beginning to emerge. But that is not the manner some people would like things to have been. In their eagerness to be counted among ethno-historians, they see a bloody ethnic strife to be at the root of it all. Presenting the episode of the Nagas’ initial unwillingness to accommodate, let us say, Vedic Aryans, as a gory struggle for domination a la colonial historians’ theory of Aryan invasion, they read discord into accord and accuse “alien” Aryans to have “annihilated” the original inhabitants of Kashmir. “The blood of Nagas flows on the pages of the Nilamata”, shrieks one poet-turned-politician-turned ethnologist. “Massacre most foul”, cries another, forgetting that there is nothing in the Nilamata even remotely suggestive of any such conflict or tension, and that it was Vishnu who gave Nagas fleeing from the wrath of Garuda, their arch enemy, shelter on the mountains surrounding the Kashmir Valley. After all, the Nilmata does not read like a document of war but a document of compromise and reconciliation, of the birth of a unique civilization on the banks of river Vitasta against the backdrop of snow clad mountains. Besides, as we have said earlier, in that age of mass migrations of people, no geographical boundaries were fixed, and the state just did not exist Anyway, let us not give the feverish imagination of these people more attention than it deserves. These are, we must know, tactics to draw attention. We have, however, to study closely the implications of the archaeological explorations which suggest that the earliest inhabitants of Kashmir were the Neolithic pit-dwellers of Burzahom, a village near Srinagar. Some Neolithic sites have been discovered in several places in the southern parts of the Valley also. Neolithic culture is said to have flourished there between 2300 BC and 2nd century AD. But as data available from Burzahom has not yet been systematically studied and analyzed, the identity of its Neolithic settlers has not been identified. Nor do we know whether they have any relations with the people of the Nilamata age or the present inhabitants of Kashmir. We are also not sure whether they had any social organization worth the name. To get a clear picture of how early Kashmiris lived, thought and worked, we have to fall back upon the Nilamata Purana and other literary sources, including Kalhana’s Rajatarangini, Damodargupta’s Kuttanimata Kavya, Kshemendra’s writings. Bilhana’s Vikramankadeva Charit, Somadeva’s Kathasaritsagara, Buddhist Avadana literature, Laugakshi’s Grihyasutra, Shaiva and Shakta Tantric literature, and stray references in other early works. Chinese and Tibetan records including Taranatha’s history of Buddhism in India and translations of old Buddhist texts are also of great value. Information gleaned from these different sources can then be checked for authenticity by relating it to archaeological evidence wherever available. Caste in Early Kashmir: Let us again revert to the Nilamata Purana and its reference to immigrant Brahmanas who followed Chandradeva and settled in Kashmir. It is highly possible that a bulk of them were from the Saraswati Valley who must have decided to migrate to Kashmir after the legendary river changed its course and finally dried up. There is a persistent and strong tradition among Kashmiri Pandits that they are Saraswat Brahmins, and the presence of a large number of words of Vedic origin in the Kashmiri language seems to confirm it. From accounts given in the Nilamata. Rajatarangini and other early sources, they appear to have emerged as the dominant and highly respected social group in Kashmir, not just because they were associated with religious rites and ceremonies, but because of their intellectual proclivities, their natural gravitation towards cultivation of cerebral graces. They were intellectual people who prized learning above everything else. And indeed it is because of their contributions that Kashmir came to be known all over the world as a great seat of Sanskrit learning. In the ancient texts referred to above, we see them as people “engaged in self-study, contemplation, performance of sacrifice, penance and the study of the Vedas and Vedangas” Respect was shown to them because they were supposed to be “itihasvidah” and “kalavidah”, that is “knowers of history and the connoisseurs of art. And who can provide a better proof of this than Kalhana, the great author of Rajatarangini, and the whole host of chroniclers of Kashmir who followed him — Jonaraja and Shrivara, Pragyabhatta and Shuka ? Brahmins were also required to have a thorough grounding in the six schools of philosophy, astrology and astronomy, grammar, logic, prosody and medicine, besides religious texts. They had to live an austere life and adhere to a high moral code. Nowhere has it been suggested that they should be worshipped “as gods on the earth” even if they are illiterate and ignorant. And yet all Brahmins have been equated with priests and shown as representatives of an exploitative and oppressive social order by historians whose only pastime is Brahmin bashing. They are accused of appropriating the surplus in agriculture and growing rich on the gifts given to them by others. There is no doubt that Brahmins did hold a high position in the society, but mainly as an intellectual and scholarly class, and not all of them adopted priesthood as their profession. And those who did were not much respected as they were recipients of donations and sacrificial fees and not donors. The donor was the patron, the yajamana who hired a priest to have a religious sacrifice or ritual performed. And anybody could be the patron under the yajmani system - including a Brahmana. But this we shall take up later. Suffice it to say here that the Brahmins took up several occupations during the period under review, besides serving as priests. They were katha-vachakas or narrators of Puranic stories, astrologers, vaidyas or physicians, teachers, and even agriculturists. Some of them joined the administrative service also and became councillors and ministers. Some, like Kaihana’s own father Champaka. adopted the military career. What about the other castes? If Dr. S.C.Ray is to be believed, there were no intermediate castes in Kashmir, not even Shudras. “Though the conception of the population as consisting of the four traditional castes was not altogether unknown”, he writes, “there was no such caste as Kshatriya, Vaishya and Shudra in early Kashmir”. While he describes Brahmanas as “definitely the more privileged and honoured caste” , he mentions Nishadas, Kiratas, Dombas, Shvapakas and Chandalas as the lower castes. Dr. Ray’s view appears to be only partiality true. The Nishadas the Kiratas, the Dombas etc. were no doubt there, but the Kshatriyas and the Vaishyas were not altogether absent, though they have not been mentioned in that detail. The Nilamata describes the functions of all the four traditional castes and says that representatives of all the four participated in the king’s coronation. The Rajatarangini too makes specific references to Kshatriyas as well as Vaishyas in the context of Kashmir’s ancient history. There is no reference in it of any tension between the castes, nor anything like the priest - king collusion to maintain hegemony over others. The Brahmanas, however, are often shown as resorting to prayopavesha or hunger-strike to get their demands accepted by the king. The confrontation between King Jayapida and the Brahmanas of Tulamula is a well known example. There may not be many direct references to Vaishyas as such in Rajatarangani and other early works, but Kalhana does mention the emergence of a rich and prosperous merchant class. With the opening of overland trade routes during Kanishka’s (From Page 16) rule, and perhaps,, earlier, trade and commerce with foreign countries appears to have received a boost. Commercial activity must have been particularly brisk during the rule of the Karkotas Extensive conquests by kings like Lalitaditya must have opened vast markets for Kashmiri goods in neighbouring territories. The Valley was full of wealthy merchants, says Kalahana, with some of them living in palatial buildings excelling the king’s palace. Damodargupta’s reference to shreshthin and vanikas also indicates the existence of a rich and prosperous trading community during his time, belonging probably to the Vaishya caste. Many among the upward mobile artisan classes in the Valley too must have belonged to this community. As for the Shudras, Nilamata counts the karmajivin (workers) and shilpis (artisans) as Shudras - that is, the weavers, carpenters, goldsmiths, silversmiths, blacksmiths, leather-tanners and potters. They were treated with respect in the society and were among those who exchanged gifts with the “higher varnas” during the Mahimana celebrations, says Dr. Ved Kumari. The servants serving in the houses of the higher castes too belonged to the caste. They were treated with sympathy and were included in the list of the persons “in whose company the householder feasted and enjoyed”. The very fact, writes Dr. Ved Kumari, that the Nilmata describes the Shudras as taking part in the coronation ceremony of the king, shows that they were not debased. There were people belonging to mixed castes also like Suta, Magadha and Vandi who lived by singing the paeans of heroes and other famous persons. Dr. S.C.Ray counts the Nishadas, Kiratas, Dombas etc. among the low caste people but stops short of calling them Shudras. The Nishadas, who lived by hunting and fishing, are also described as boatsmen in the Rajatarangim. The Kiratas, who were hunters and animal trappers, were a forest dwelling tribe belonging to the Tibeto-Burman racial stock. The Dombas have been described in the Rajatarangim in association with the Chandalas as huntsmen belonging to the menial class. Kalhana calls them “Shvapakas” or “dog-eating people'. But they have also been shown as good musicians who made quite a profession of their singing and dancing. Kalhana mentions the story of a Domba singer Ranga whose daughters gave a performance in the glittering royal assembly hall of Chakravarman and were included in the king’s seraglio, one of them becoming the chief queen much to the chagrin of others . Consequently, Dombas became the favourites of the king and wielded much influence at his court as councillors. Chandalas,- were bravos and fierce fighters. They worked as executioners and were also employed as the king’s watchmen. The division of early Kashmiri society into four castes and their sub-castes was only notional In actual fact, the caste-system was never rigid in Kashmir, or of a tyrannical character. Intermarriages between various castes were not uncommon, as we learn from works like the Katha-sarit-sagara. It is not, therefore relevant to talk of social-organization in terms or caste so far as at least Kashmir is concerned. The society in Kashmir was actually divided along occupational or socio-economic lines. Writes Dr. S.C.Ray : “Three distinct classes of people evolved, along with their several sub-divisions, on the basis of three principle methods of production (agriculture, industry and trade)”. While agriculturists constituted the bulk of these occupational classes, artisans and merchants too had important roles to play in the society. Though agriculture formed the mainstay of the economy, it is not known whether the cultivators in ancient Kashmir were the owners of the lands they tilled or mere tenants of the actual landlords. In all probability, they had a certain share in the crop harvested by them, but its distribution lay mainly in the lands of the king and the feudal lords. The fact that cultivators participated in the joyful festivals related to agriculture during the Nilamata age shows that they were by and large owners of the lands tilled by them. But around the 8th century, a new class of feudal landlords known as the Damaras appeared on the scene and started gaming control of agriculturist economy. We do not hear of them in the Nilamata, nor in the first three books of the Rajatarangini till we find Lalitaditya, Kashmir’s most powerful king, warning his successors not to leave cultivators of the land with more than what they require “for their bare sustenance and the tillage of the land”. Otherwise, he says ‘they would become in a single year very formidable Damaras and strong enough to neglect the commands of the commands of the kings”. And then we learn that they -were agriculturists who, owned large chunks of land. Lalitaditva’s warning appears to have had no effect, for we see the Damaras becoming more and more wealthy and gaming more and more strength By the time” the Lohara dynasty ascended the throne,, they had become so rich and powerful that they began to interfere in the affairs of the State. Living in fortified residences, they raised large private armies and established their strongholds all over Kashmir Such was their power and influence that they were able to extend their stranglehold over the administration, becoming virtual king-makers, enthroning or dethroning anyone according to their wish. In the wars of succession that became endemic after the 10th century, we find them supporting one claimant to the throne or the other, their support often proving to be the deciding factor. This is what happened in the internecine conflicts between Ananta and Kalasha and Kalasha and Marsha, each of them vying for their help. Powerful rulers like Didda, Ananta, Kalasha and Jayasimha used every stratagem to curb them, including the use of military force, but the Damaras continued to retain their nuisance value. Dr. S.C.Ray attributes the rise and growth of the Damaras not only to the “weakness of the royal authority” and “the constant wars of succession”, but also to “the economic structure of the society”’’, which because of increasing dependence on agricultural lands for revenue proved helpful to the rise of the landed aristocracy. As their wealth and influence increased, the Damaras came to be looked upon with respect in the society, with royal families establishing even matrimonial relations with them. Merchants formed another important and influential section of the society. We have already referred to their rise while talking of the Vaishyas. Kalhana shows them living in great affluence in palatial residences more magnificent than even the king’s palace Kashmir’s trade and commercial ties with the neighbouring regions appear to have been very strong right from the Kushana period or even earlier and by the time the Karkotas rose to power, an extensive export market became available for Kashmiri goods, which presumably included raw wool and woollen fabrics, hides and skins and leather articles, fruits, and most important of all, saffron. Among the articles of imports salt seemed to be the most important Silk, which seems to have been imported from the neighbouring China, vermilion, asfoetida and several other spices, and coral, imported possibly from the western regions, were possibly the other-important items. With this the wealthy merchant class gained ascendance in the society We can see in Damodaragupta’s kuttanimata Kavya. shresihm and vanikus living in great luxury and patronising theatre-houses. However their importance began to decline when the overland trade routes were closed and trade became more of an internalized affair. They even began to resort to deceitful means for making quick money, as Kalhana and Kshemendra seem to suggest. While agricultural and trading communities were very important elements in the society from the socio-economic point of view, the artisan classes also witnessed a significant growth in early Kashmir. These included the weavers and the jewellers, metal casters and image-makers, potters and carpenters, blacksmiths and leather tanners etc. Although their sphere of activity was quite wide, there were no corporate or traders guilds in Kashmir as in other parts of India. There were also occupational communities who served the society in various other ways. Among these could be counted the wrestlers, the actors, the dancers, the physicians, the shepherds, the gardeners and also the courtesans who plied the world’s oldest trade These people were not directly connected with the production of wealth, but nonetheless had their own place in the society. Yet another class, which distinguished itself from all the classes mentioned above was that of the administrators. It consisted of the nobility and the bureaucracy As Dr. S.C. Ray has pointed out, the highest civil and military officials were drawn from the nobility, and these included the sarvadiikara (also called dhi-sachiva) or prime minister, stiehiva or minister, the mandalesha or governor and the kantpanes ha or commander-in-chief. Being important officers of the State, the nobility drew lame salaries from the royal treasury. The bureaucracy assisted them in running the general administration of the State It consisted of all kinds of officials, both high and low, all of them being known by the general coveivterm “”Kayastha”, which did not denote any particular caste. Members of and caste or class could be recruited as Kayasthas, including the Brahmanas. Both Kalhana and Kshemendra have Hayed them for their greed and for their cruel methods of exacting revenue and taxes from the people. Kshemendra gives a long list of their designations in his works Narmamala and Samaya Matrika . Describing them as an exploitative and oppressive class, he exposes their fraudulent ways and bungling, and accuses them of forgery, misappropriation and embezzlement. Kalhana too speaks about them in the same vein. The common man appears to have been squeezed between the tyrannical Damaras and the oppressive and greedy Kayasthas, though not all Kayasthas could have been like that. One of the most significant, and surprising, features of the early Kashmiri society was the freedom that women enjoyed. The picture one gets of their life from various literary sources is not that of servitude or deprivation but of happy participation in different spheres of human activity. There was no attempt to marginalise them or decultunse their personality, as was being done in other contemporary societies elsewhere in the world. Though under the protective umbrella of the family, they occupied a pivotal place in social life and moved about with unfettered freedom. Undoubtedly, the society was patriarchal, but there was no restriction on the movement of women, nor were any irrational curbs imposed on their activity In the age of Nilamata and the centuries that followed, female seclusion was something unknown in Kashmir till Islam made its advent. Participating joyfully in the numerous festivals prescribed in the Nilamata, they would go to the gardens in the company of their menfolk without any inhibition or tear oi approbation. Poi instance, during the hamanjan utsava, the would freel) sport with men under the flower-laden boughs of the Iramanjari shrubs, exchanging garlands of flowers with men in a spirit of gay abandon ‘ Or go to the fruit gardens on the Ashokikash.ta.ini clay to worship fruit-beanng trees”’. Such was the spirit of the times that during the Shravani Utsava. young maidens were enjoined to go and enjoy water sports V Yet another seasonal-festival was Knshyarambha when peasant women would accompany their menfolk to the “open fields of nature for ceremonial ploughing of the soil and sowing of seeds”. It was a month long festival celebrated amidst much singing cind dancing While these outdoor festivals showed that women in these limes were in no way confined to the four walls of their homes, there were numerous indoor festivals too. For instance, during the Kaumudi Mahotsava or the festival of the Full Moon, women would sit beside the sacred fire with their husbands and children, watching the beauty of the moonlit night”. Even servants were allowed to participate in such festivals. Source: Kashmir Sentinel Dr. Shashishekhar Toshkhani Dr. S.S. Toshkhani is a renowned scholar of India and belongs to a great intellectual family of Kashmir. His father late Prof. S.K. Toshkhani was a legendary scholar of Kashmir's literature, language and culture. Dr. Toshkhani is a poet, linguist, writer and thinker. He has contributed substantially to Kashmiri heritage and carried out modern research in various fields of Kashmiri literature, history, religion, art and social science in general. He is a member of the research committee of Kashmiri Education, Culture and Science Society. He is conducting research on Bhakti tradition in Kashmiri Poetry as a Senior Fellow (on a fellowship from the Ministry of Culture) and on rituals and visual arts of Kashmir at the Indira Gandhi National Centre for the Arts. He has been associated in many leading seminars conducted by Kashmir Education, Culture and Science Society. Dr. Toshkhani, therefore, represents a great tradition of scholarship of Kashmir and Kashmiri Pandits. URL: http://ikashmir.net/sstoshkhani/ From pawan.durani at gmail.com Sat Apr 25 14:28:42 2009 From: pawan.durani at gmail.com (Pawan Durani) Date: Sat, 25 Apr 2009 14:28:42 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] What the Communists have done to West Bengal in 30 years ! In-Reply-To: <6b79f1a70904241147p1acb491dx912c2265a147a83e@mail.gmail.com> References: <6b79f1a70904241147p1acb491dx912c2265a147a83e@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <6b79f1a70904250158j2e0554a0m231e68013a4860d8@mail.gmail.com> "An interesting report card about the left front government. I wonder do we need these people to take India in next century or move it to where the USSR splitted and Communism failed ?" This report card has been prepeared by Congress I , the ruling party in India with whom the Communists had an alliance till few months back. 30 YEARS OF LEFT FRONT RULE IN WEST BENGAL: A DEVELOPMENT REPORT CARD APRIL 5, 2009 Table of Contents 1. Health and Nutrition 3 Even after 30 years of Left rule, West Bengal has very high levels of hunger and malnutrition when compared to the rest of India. 2. Education 5 Even after 30 years of Left rule, West Bengal is failing to keep children in school and to ensure learning among them. 3. Employment Generation 7 Even after 30 years of Left rule, negligible new employment is being created in West Bengal, even as other states are forging ahead. 4. Poverty 8 Even after 30 years of Left rule, most of West Bengal's districts are among the poorest in India. It also has the ominous distinction of having India's poorest district. 5. Income Growth 9 Even after 30 years of Left rule, West Bengal has very high levels of hunger and malnutrition when compared to the rest of India. 6. Law and Order 10 After 30 years of Left rule, the ranking of West Bengal among Indian states in terms of per capita income has slid dramatically. 7. Basic Services and Infrastructure 11 Even after 30 years of Left rule, West Bengal has under-invested in protecting its citizens. The incidence of heinous crimes in West Bengal is disproportionately high when compared to other states of India. 8. Welfare of Backward Classes 12 Even after 30 years of Left rule, the Left government has failed to provide access to essential services and basic infrastructure to the people of West Bengal. 1. Health & Nutrition Even after 30 years of Left rule, West Bengal has very high levels of hunger and malnutrition when compared to the rest of India. · Hunger West Bengal has the highest rate of hunger in rural households among major Indian states. o This is validated in a recent Study led by Jean Dreze and Angus Deaton (see below). · Malnutrition of Women o Married women in West Bengal, on average, have a lower body-mass index than the average Indian woman, suggesting greater undernourishment. Married women in West Bengal also have a greater likelihood of suffering from anemia than the average Indian woman. o This data is from the West Bengal government’s own Human Development Report. · Not spending Central Government Funds on Healthcare West Bengal government has failed to fully and effectively spend the money released to it by the Central government, year after year. · Failure to spend on urban health services: Comptroller & Auditor General of India, Audit Report (Civil), West Bengal for the Year 2006-2007 notes that: “During 2002-2007, the (West Bengal government’s) department could not spend the budgeted funds of Rs 357.13 crore for urban health services. Further, unutilised funds of Rs 1.50 crore remained parked in the personal ledger accounts of the Superintendents of two hospitals for over seven years.” 2. Education Even after 30 years of Left rule, West Bengal is failing to keep children in school and to ensure learning among them. · Drop-out Rates West Bengal has the second highest school dropout rate among major states of India. · Learning of Children The level of learning of children in rural West Bengal schools is, on average, lower than most other states of India. · Poor Implementation of Mid-Day Meal Scheme The Comptroller & Auditor General of India, Performance Audit Report of the National Programme for Nutritional Support to Primary Education (Midday Meal Scheme), 2008 notes that: o “In test checked schools, cooked meals were not served for 37 per cent of the targeted 78,114 school-days due to delayed implementation of the programme, short receipt of rice, cooking cost, etc.” o Rs. 4.82 crore was claimed in excess of the actual spend for food grain transportation. o Pucca kitchen sheds were not available in 71 per cent of the schools. o Drinking water was not available in 29 per cent of the schools. Gas stoves were not available in 99 percent of the schools. 3. Employment Generation After 30 years of Left rule, negligible new employment is being created in West Bengal, even as other states are forging ahead. · Employment growth o Employment growth outside agriculture in West Bengal is way behind that of other comparable states and also behind the national average. o Employment growth has practically come to a halt in urban areas. · National Rural Employment Guarantee Scheme Implementation o While it complains about lack of support from the central government, the West Bengal government is failing to utilize funds allocated to it by the Centre to implement the scheme. § According to the CAG of India Performance Audit in 2008, the West Bengal government spent only 66.6% of the funds made available for the National Rural Employment Guarantee Scheme (NREGS) in 2006-07. o There is over-reporting of the implementation of the scheme, the actual implementation is much lower. According to a CAG of India Performance Audit in 2008: § Excess reporting of 6.06 lakh man days of cumulative employment generation was noticed just in Purulia district alone. § Excess reporting of funds utilization of Rs. 0.99 crore was noticed in both Medinipur and Purulia districts. 4. Poverty Even after 30 years of Left rule, most of West Bengal’s districts are among the poorest in India. It also has the ominous distinction of having India’s poorest district. · 14 out of West Bengal’s 18 districts (i.e. 78% of the districts) are among the 100 poorest districts in India. · The poorest district in India is Murshidabad in West Bengal, where 56% of the people live in abject poverty. An astonishing 1.47% of India’s rural poor live in this one district alone. Source: 2009 Study by Indian Statistical Institute for the Ministry of Statistics and Programme Implementation; based on analysis of NSS Data 5. Income Growth After 30 years of Left rule, the ranking of West Bengal among Indian states in terms of per capita income has slid dramatically. · West Bengal has gone from having the second position in per capita income among Indian states in 1960/61 to the ninth position in 2004/05. Ranking of Indian States by Per Capita Income 1960/61 1980/81 2004/05 Maharashtra 1 2 2 West Bengal 2 5 9 Punjab 3 1 3 Gujarat 4 4 4 Tamil Nadu 5 8 6 Haryana 6 3 1 Assam 7 12 10 Karnataka 8 6 7 Rajasthan 9 14 11 Andhra Pradesh 10 9 8 Kerala 11 7 5 Madhya Pradesh 12 10 13 Orissa 13 11 12 Uttar Pradesh 14 13 14 Bihar 15 15 15 Source: Central Statistical Organization (CSO) 6. Law & OrderEven after 30 years of Left rule, West Bengal has under-invested in protecting its citizens. The incidence of heinous crimes in West Bengal is disproportionately high when compared to other states of India.· Police ForceWest Bengal has under-invested in protecting its citizens – it has fewer policemen per capita than the all-India average. · Incidence of heinous crimesThe incidence of heinous crimes is much higher than the incidence in other comparable states and the all-India average. 7. Basic Services and InfrastructureEven after 30 years of Left rule, the Left government has failed to provide access to essential services and basic infrastructure to the people of West Bengal.· Availability of Drinking Water Only a quarter of households in West Bengal have access to safe drinking water, which is far less than other comparable states. · Road connectivityLess than half the habitations in West Bengal are connected by pucca roads, which is far less than other comparable states. 8. Welfare of Backward Classes Even after 30 years of Left rule, the Left government has failed to look after the interests of the weaker sections of West Bengal, especially SC/ST groups. Observations made in the Comptroller & Auditor General of India Report, “Audit Report (Civil) for the year ended 31 March 2007” · During 2001-2006, against a budget of Rs 1.43 crores for pre-matric scholarships, only Rs 0.43 crore (30 per cent) were granted and paid to SC/ST students. · In seven test-checked districts, 25,000 SC and 4000 ST students were deprived of post-matric scholarships due to non-release of required funds. Further, over 74,000 students faced a delay of between 12 – 22 months in receiving their scholarships in the seven districts surveyed. · Against the state’s budgeted provision of Rs 92.37 crores for payment of book grants, the concerned state government department released only Rs 77.80 crores, thus depriving 14.15 lakh students of the benefits of the scheme. · As of March 2006, construction of two central hostels for SC/ST students was not started due to land dispute and construction of seven more hostels remained incomplete due to delayed selection of sites and delayed release of funds. Further, eight additional hostels remained vacant for want of matrons, superintendents and other staff and required basic infrastructure facilities. Shockingly, two of the hostels were being used as Government offices and residences. · In the absence of adequate inspection, hostel grants were paid to the school authorities on the basis of sanctioned strength of boarders, instead of actual number of students accommodated therein. As a result, several instances of excess payment of hostel grants aggregating Rs 39.35 lakh were noticed in the audit. From kshmendra2005 at yahoo.com Sat Apr 25 15:52:11 2009 From: kshmendra2005 at yahoo.com (Kshmendra Kaul) Date: Sat, 25 Apr 2009 03:22:11 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Reader-list] Fwd: My Brief Review of Women and Islam on the Shelfari Page In-Reply-To: <1f9180970904230757u5bda01a2t7b68f662eea62fe3@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <702152.59568.qm@web57205.mail.re3.yahoo.com> Dear Venugopalan   My comments to you were only in the context of what was mentioned in your 'review'.   What you have recognised as Fatima Mernissi's intent would be ennobling and a great contribution to Islam if it generates sober discussion amongst Muslims. This that:   """""" Fathima, by undertaking a scholarly journey through most of the authentic historical and theological material finds a disturbing contradiction betweenthese two aspects of Islam .Apparently she wants to forge ahead placing this contradiction bluntly before the "subjects of official Islam(s)"and others, with uncompromising claim for equal citizenship to 'Islamic' and women"""""""   I do not know how she has gone about attempting it but for sure quite a task for anyone to undertake.   Here again, anyone would be best advised to base the foundational core of their presentation on the Quran and first generate persepectives on those passages from the Quran (of which there are a few) that might seem to be in conflict with the stated purpose. What would be useful will be my simple minded advice on how to study the precepts/advisories from the Quran.   That done, any Hadeeth or Rivayaat that does not find itself supported unquestionably by the Quran but seems to promote 'inequality'  must be discarded. Similarly, any Hadeeth or Rivaayat that is supportive of 'equality' but is not contradicted by the Quran must be accepted. This would have to be done irrespective of the hithereto declared opinion of any Hedeeth or Rivayaat being 'authentic' howsoever credible be the 'Science' under which it is declared so.   And yet after all of this, there would still be some references from the Quran where Muslims would have to adopt the attitude " We do not know what exactly Allah meant but given the 'Spirit of Islam' that is dear to us we do not think such an advice is valid for an ever-after perpetuity". Tough task. Very very tough.   There is (to my mind) a confused thinking amongst Muslims with the concepts of Hijab, Purdah and Haya (modesty).   As I mentioned earlier, there is no Quranic injunction (known to me) where Hijab was advised for any women other than Mohammed's wives.   On the contrary there are quite a few Hadeeth and Rivayaat which present a picture of Mohammed's times where women were easily recognisable in Public Space and various kinds of interactions (with Haya - Modesty) in both Private and Public space including those with Mohammed and his Sahabas (companions). No Hijab. No Purdah.   Similarly, there is no sanction in the Quran for "death by stoning" of an adulterous woman. So any Hadeeth or Rivaayat whatsoever that might be quoted to argue otherwise is to be discarded. The Quran also says that no punishment should exceed those specified. That is for those who opine that there cannot be a punishment lesser than that specified. No Sir! that is not what the Quran says.   Muslims (in general) have much to understand about Quran, Hadeeth, Rivayaat and the personality of Mohammed. Here is a delightful Hadeeth from Sahih Muslim:   """"""" Book 030, Number 5745: Anas reported that Allah's Apostle (may peace be upon him) came to his wives as the camel-driver who was called Anjasha had been, driving (the camels) on which (they were riding). Thereupon he said: Anjasha, be careful, drive slowly for you are driving the mounts who carry vessels of glass. Abu Qilaba said that Allah's Messenger (may peace be upon him) uttered words which if someone had uttered amongst you, you would have found fault with him. """""" This Hadeeth has many versions and one tells you what Mohammed meant by 'vessels of glass' :   """"" Allah's Messenger (may peace be upon him) said to him: Anjasha, drive slowly; do not break the vessels of glass, meaning the weak women.""""""   (Incidentally, a few other versions tell you that the camel driver was singing and there is no mention of Mohammed having stopped him from singing)     Kshmendra           --- On Thu, 4/23/09, Venugopalan K M wrote: From: Venugopalan K M Subject: Re: [Reader-list] Fwd: My Brief Review of Women and Islam on the Shelfari Page To: "sarai-list" Date: Thursday, April 23, 2009, 8:27 PM Dear Ksmendra, i'm tempted to briefly intervene at this stage, though was waiting for more posts to come in. My take at this point is that the contentions of Fathima Mernissi(only few mentioned in my original post) are worth listening, given the background of aspersions about Islam both as a deram about a new world of peace,equality and justice for all humans as envisioned by Mohamed in the 7th century Arabia and as a practicing faith since then, where women are asked to remain confined to purdahs. Fathima, by undertaking a scholarly journey through most of the authentic historical and theological material finds a disturbing contradiction between these two aspects of Islam .Apparently she wants to forge ahead placing this contradiction bluntly before the "subjects of official Islam(s)"and others, with uncompromising claim for equal citizenship to 'Islamic' and women . Regards, Venu On Thu, Apr 23, 2009 at 7:56 PM, Kshmendra Kaul wrote: > Dear Javed > > SLAVERY > > Venugopalan stated that "Islam would not sanction the practice of slavery > among > the believers" > > I countered that with "Slavery is institutionalised in Islam through the > Quran". You too do not seem to disagree with that. > > Where the movement to abolish slavery started is hardly relevant and your > claim is not necessarily correct. What is relevant is 'who actually > abolished it'. > > The weblink for the Book you provided does not allow a read of all pages of > the book. But here are a few interesting extracts: > > - Participants in such controversies rarely heed Jacques Jomier's wise > words that no religion is in the position to cast the first stone in the > matter of slavery > > - Abdullahi al-Naim ...... concluded "slavery is lawful under sharia to the > present day" > > That is how it is. No one can change that since that would mean abrogating > passages from the Quran. > > > HADEETH > > Islam would have had, if it had so been followed, the strength of there > being a single text, the Quran. The deep sectarian divides amongst Muslims > come from the Hadeeth and Rivayaat taking forward the history of divides > that started almost immediately after the death of Mohammed. > > Although, between sects there is quibbling over interpretations of some > text even from the Quran but it is the non-acceptace of any set of Hadeeth > and Rivaayat universally by all Muslims that has deepened the divides. > > Forget about what Islamic scholars say. If they knew what they were talking > about, Islam as represented by those who claim to be Muslims would not be in > the mess that it is. > > The sects cannot even agree on what a single version of the Last Sermon of > Mohammed not to speak of the thousands of Hadeeth and Rivaayat. > > The Word is God. Quran is the Word. There cannot be any intercession in the > relationship between the Creator and Creations. If it is a question of > understanding the Quran, then the Quran itself tells Mohammed that (even) he > will not understand some parts of the Quran. > > Even the Sunnis for example might have started by claiming the trueness of > the Sahi Sitta (6 Hadeeth books), they are to this day struggling to agree > whether all of their contents are Sahi (true). The Shias of course hold much > of the contents in those books in contempt and yet funnily enough at times > use some content from those very books to attack the Sunnis and especially > Aisha and the first three Khalifas. Quite a mess. > > The write-up on Al Albani's work forwarded by you only confirms this. One > more attempt to sort out the Hadeeth and Rivayaat. How can they serve as a > useful tool to understand the Quran if they continue to be controversial? > > Interestingly the write-up makes reference to Al Albani's "The Veil of the > Muslim Woman" where apparently he has argued that Muslim women should not > cover their faces. But thats another topic. > > What the Muslims need to do is to go back to the basics. Study the Quran > and the Quran alone and understand it along the lines I had written about > earlier: > > - Self-declaratory by Allah. A generalised commentary on Creator and the > Creations and expectations of Creator from Creations > - Advisories for Mohammed alone > - Advisories for everyone > - Advisories for specific times > - Advisories valid in perpetuity for ever after > - Commentaries of the times before Mohammed that may or may not > be advisories in perpetutity for ever after > > Once they agree on a common understanding they will find much in the > Hadeeth and Rivaayat from the different sects that need to be discarded. > They will find quite unimportant some of the difference they quarrel > over. They will find a new understanding of what a true Muslim is that will > not make them suspect in the eyes of everyone else. > > Kshmendra > > > --- On *Thu, 4/23/09, M Javed * wrote: > > From: M Javed > Subject: Re: [Reader-list] Fwd: My Brief Review of Women and Islam on the > Shelfari Page > To: kshmendra2005 at yahoo.com > Cc: "sarai-list" , "Venugopalan K M" < > kmvenuannur at gmail.com> > Date: Thursday, April 23, 2009, 2:42 PM > > > Dear Kshmendra > There is no medieval culture or civilization which didn't have slavery > in it. In some places it is still existing in the form of castism. > While it is true that the Quran or Prophet Muhammad did not abolish > slavery, the movements to end it truly started in the Muslim world, > much before it was abolished even in Europe. It would be interesting > to take a look at a book which is even available online: > > Islam and the abolition of slavery > By W. G. Clarence-Smith > http://books.google.co.in/books?id=nQbylEdqJKkC&dq=islam+against+slavery&printsec=frontcover&source=in&hl=en&ei=oC3wSaKiM4zW6gO_4qCfDw&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=11#PPP1,M1 > > Please explain why do you say that most people go wrong when they try > to read Quran with hadith. Almost all Islamic scholars are of the > opinion that the cryptic nature of the Quran can be best understood by > interpreting it through hadiths - the two cannot be understood without > each other. I would like you to read on essay about some new work on > the interpretation of hadith: > http://www.isim.nl/files/review_21/review_21-6.pdf > > Javed > > > On Wed, Apr 22, 2009 at 7:43 PM, Kshmendra Kaul > wrote: > > Dear Venugopalan > > > > Just a few comments on what you have written: > > > > - Mohammed's son-in-law was Ali (not Umer) > > > > - Slavery is institutionalised in Islam through the Quran. It comments on > it and gives no injunction against it as being unacceptable > > > > - There is no advisory favouring the HIJAB in the Quran other than ONLY > for the wives of Mohammed (this is open to interpretations). > > > > - Certain controversial advisories in the Quran and specifically the Law > for Evidences, makes suspect a claim of 'equality between the sexes' as > may be understood in secular terms > > > > - You err in referring to the 'monotheistic universal faith is > absolutely egalitarian' of Islam as being a VISION of Mohammed. It is the > VISION of ALLAH and not Mohammed. > > > > While on this subject; Most commentators on Islam including Muslims do > wrong when they try to read the Quran in combination with the Hadith. The Hadith > are sectarian and indeed political and may not always be in-line with the > Quranic word, which makes some doubly suspect. > > > > Even in the reading of the Quran (and this is solely my own > understanding), it would help both Muslims and Non-Muslims to understand things > better if they were to identify the following aspects: > > > > - Self-declatory by Allah. A generalised commentary on Creator and the > Creations and expectations of Creator from Creations > > > > - Advisories for Mohammed alone > > > > - Advisories for everyone > > > > - Advisories for specific times > > > > - Advisories valid in perpetuity for ever after > > > > - Commentaries of the times before Mohammed that may or may not > be advisories in perpetutity for ever after > > > > Kshmendra > > > > > > --- On Wed, 4/22/09, Venugopalan K M wrote: > > > > From: Venugopalan K M > > Subject: Fwd: My Brief Review of Women and Islam on the Shelfari Page > > To: "sarai-list" > > Date: Wednesday, April 22, 2009, 6:25 PM > > > > > > > > > > > > ---------- Forwarded message ---------- > > From: Venugopalan K M > > Date: Wed, Apr 22, 2009 at 6:23 PM > > Subject: Fwd: My Brief Review of Women and Islam on the Shelfari Page > > To: > > > > > > > > Respected friends, > > Kindly send in your comments; I expect to be benefited by them as I > shortly intend to publish a translation of the work in Malayalam, which is my > mother tongue. > > Warmly, > > Venu. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Women and Islam: An Historical and Theological Enquiry > > by Fatima Mernissi > > In this book the author, who is both a feminist and a Muslim, aims to shed > light on the status of women in Islam by examining and reassessing the literary > sources as far back as 7th century Islam. She portrays how, far from being the > oppressor of women that his detractors have claimed, the Prophet upheld the > equality of all true believers. Here is a bold reconciliation of feminism with > the... (more) > > > > kmvenuannur > > o Rated 0 stars > > > > “ Fatima Mernissi has done an epoch making and scholarly > exploration of the Suras (original Quranic verses) and the Hadits (accounts by > the Companions of the Prophet about how the Messenger of God responded to > challenging moments in the lives of first generation of believers,methodically > cross checked and compiled by religious scholars who lived in the first two > centuries of Islam) along with the interpretations since then. The major > findings of the author are the following: > > 1. The Prophet undoubtedly wanted no separation between the public > and private realms of life. > > 2. His vision of a monotheistic universal faith is absolutely > egalitarian and that is a world in which women could shoulder equal roles with > that of men in political, social and economic realms with a view to creating a > new world that would assure peace and happiness to all humans. > > 3. While Islam would not sanction the practice of slavery among > the believers, continuation of that institution for several centuries was > possible in the actual islamic regimes thanks to the denial of option (to the > new religion )to the prisoners of wars, who were mostly women from the pre > Islamic kingdoms. However,their chidren were considered free persons. These > women were treated as slaves and they were traded off or exchanged as booty. > > 4.The descend of Hijab,the physical as well as the symbolicl > separation of private and public spaces happened as a response to the grave > crisis in the Medina priod,which corresponded to the later phase in the life of > the Prophet. Years between Hejra 3-8 (AD 625- 628) were crtical periods of > crisis characterized by severe losses and uncertainity both on the side of > military expetitions and on the socio-economic life of people. > > 5. Evenwhile the Prophet together with his wives and many of the > articulate women in the Medinese city continued adherence to the principle of > equality( between men and women) , they encountered lot of social abuses on > account of this. > > 6. The prominent of the male Companions led by his son in law Umer > continuously pressed on the Prophet to impose restrictions for women. They > persisted on the view that solution to the above crisis of credibility and above > all the insecurity, was in the separation of the Muslim space into two- public > space was to be preserved as exclusive domain of men, and the private space as > the secluded space for women- both these spaces to be separated by a Hijab- > > 7. The Hijab ultimately descended from the Heaven as revealed to > the Prophet during the night of a wedding dinner in connection with his first > night with Zainab in the year Hejra 5 (AD 627). The immediate provocation of the > incident, according to a Hadith, was boorish behaviour of three men who > continued to linger there chatting, sitting in the room without leaving the > place even after the dinner; Prophet was eagerly waiting to be left alone in the > company of Zainab,his new bride sitting in the same room. ” > > kmvenuannur wrote this review 1 minute ago. ( reply | edit > |permalink ) > > > > > > > > > > > > _________________________________________ > > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > > Critiques & Collaborations > > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > subscribe in the subject header. > > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > > List archive: > > > -- http://venukm.blogspot.com/ _________________________________________ reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. Critiques & Collaborations To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with subscribe in the subject header. To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> From 2tahamehmood at googlemail.com Sat Apr 25 17:48:47 2009 From: 2tahamehmood at googlemail.com (Taha Mehmood) Date: Sat, 25 Apr 2009 13:18:47 +0100 Subject: [Reader-list] MNIC: Parliament Questions - 1 Message-ID: <65be9bf40904250518pf9c118fs6d822488e8da8278@mail.gmail.com> Dear All >From today in addition to the series of posting gathered under a generic title called - News Items posted on the Net on Multiple Purpose National Identity Card-, I wish to start a new thread. This thread will have questions asked on the identity cards in our parliament. This thread will have two sections. One for lok sabha and one for rajya sabha. I propose to cover the thirteenth and the fourteenth lok sabha sessions and corresponding rajya sabha session about this issue. The format of the posts will be as follows- a link followed by the question asked and the answer given. I hope this thread will be able to bring additional data in the public domain about how our politicians and policy makers look into the idea of identity cards. Also help us understand exactly who are the politicians, interested in asking questions about identity cards? What is the nature of these questions and what kind of answers does the government of India provides? Regards Taha http://164.100.47.132/psearch/QResult13.aspx?qref=6806 GOVERNMENT OF INDIA MINISTRY OF HOME AFFAIRS LOK SABHA UNSTARRED QUESTION NO 367 ANSWERED ON 25.07.2000 ISSUE OF IDENTITY CARDS TO RESIDENTS OF INDO-PAK BORDER 367 . Shri CHANDRAKANT BHAURAO KHAIRE RAMESH CHAND TOMAR SHYAMA SINGH NARESH KUMAR PUGLIA RASA SINGH RAWAT (a) whether the Government have decided to issue identity cards to all the residents within the five kilometers stretch of the Indo-Pak border in Jammu and Kashmir; (b) if so, the details thereof; (c) whether such cards would also be issued to other residents in border areas in other States where infiltration across the border has been reporting; (d) if so, the time by which the work of issuing cards is likely to be started; and (e) the extent to which the existing measures are sufficient to prevent infiltration across the border? ANSWER THE MINISTER OF STATE IN THE MINISTRY OF HOME AFFAIRS (CH. VIDYASAGAR RAO ) (a)&(b): As a part of J&K Action Plan the State Govt. of Jammu & Kashmir has been advised to issue photo identity cards to all male habitants in the age group of 16 to 60 years living within 25 Kms of the Line of Control/International Border. (c)&(d): A proposal for compulsory registration of all citizens in the country and issuing them Multi-purpose National Identity Cards (MNICs) under consideration for which a private consultancy firm has been entrusted to work out the feasibility aspect of this scheme. (f) : The Government have recently taken a decision for adopting a multi-modal approach for erecting an obstacle system on the International Border in Jammu Sector to check infiltration and smuggling of weapons/explosives etc. Some of the other steps taken to prevent infiltration include strengthening border management, gearing up of intelligence machinery, close surveillance of the border by intensive patrolling, conduct of special operations, Nakas and ambushes, provision of specialised equipments like night vision devices etc. From 2tahamehmood at googlemail.com Sat Apr 25 17:52:22 2009 From: 2tahamehmood at googlemail.com (Taha Mehmood) Date: Sat, 25 Apr 2009 13:22:22 +0100 Subject: [Reader-list] MNIC: Parliament Questions - 2 Message-ID: <65be9bf40904250522w5732c21bxbcffefcccb59d442@mail.gmail.com> http://164.100.47.132/psearch/QResult13.aspx?qref=8567 GOVERNMENT OF INDIA MINISTRY OF HOME AFFAIRS LOK SABHA UNSTARRED QUESTION NO 2499 ANSWERED ON 08.08.2000 CITIZENSHIP IDENTITY CARDS 2499 . Shri NEDURUMALLI JANARDHANA REDDY (a) whether the Delhi High Court in its recent judgement has stated that claim of citizenship cannot be validated only by obtaining EC`s Photo Identity card or ration card; (b) if so, whether the Government have been actively considering to issue citizenship Identity cards to all the actual residents in the country; and (c) if so, the time by which it is likely to be done and the steps the Government propose to take to deport all the foreign nationals from the country? ANSWER THE MINISTER OF STATE IN THE MINISTRY OF HOME AFFAIRS (CH. VIDYASAGAR RAO) (a): Yes, Sir. (b): A proposal for compulsory registration of all citizens in the country and issuing them Multi-Purpose National Identity Cards (MNICs) has been under consideration in this Ministry. A feasibility study in respect of this scheme is presently under preparation. (c): Detection and deportation of foreign nationals staying illegally in the country is an on going process. From rakesh.rnbdj at gmail.com Sat Apr 25 18:09:21 2009 From: rakesh.rnbdj at gmail.com (Rakesh Iyer) Date: Sat, 25 Apr 2009 18:09:21 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] What the Communists have done to West Bengal in 30 years ! In-Reply-To: <6b79f1a70904250158j2e0554a0m231e68013a4860d8@mail.gmail.com> References: <6b79f1a70904241147p1acb491dx912c2265a147a83e@mail.gmail.com> <6b79f1a70904250158j2e0554a0m231e68013a4860d8@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: Dear all While the Left have been fighting for people's rights in certain states, the fact is that they have now converted the same for their personal purposes into fiefdoms. This is very much true in West Bengal. One issue of EPW in this or the last month (the exact date is February 28 - March 06,2009) actually had an entire set of articles on West Bengal. What was striking was the continuous argument being given that only those panchayats which elected Left regularly actually got funds. Even those panchayats which had a fluctuation in elections didn't get funds for any purpose, even if the Left was in power there. Hence, panchayats have now been turned into party's fiefdoms. And just to ensure the party rules, it has misused the very decentralization of power which was supposed to empower India's citizens, not deprive them. This does not mean that land reforms have not benefited people. But certain important conclusions must be also seen. The articles in this issue, undertaken as ground based research by scholars, pointed out that while people actually used to vote, they didn't take part in panchayat meetings, because of the perception that Left anyway dominates these. What's more, people felt if they vote for Left, they would get benefited from these schemes. And this comes from the villagers where this research was undertaken, not me or you. Therefore, the Left certainly has shown hypocrisy when it comes to such issues. Infact, the researchers have stated in this issue that one of the probable reasons why the Left has been winning constantly is that the poor realize if they don't vote for the Left, their rights like BPL cards and participation in govt. schemes would be taken away from them. The Left has only done one good thing: kept people poor and equal and thereby ensure some kind of social trust between them. But this is not what a govt. or a party in power is supposed to do. What they have done is similar to CCP in China, where the party coincides with the state structure by coordination of both in a manner which ensures the loyals benefit and the dissenters pay, which is contrary to how a democratic state should function. Regards Rakesh From kshmendra2005 at yahoo.com Sat Apr 25 19:57:37 2009 From: kshmendra2005 at yahoo.com (Kshmendra Kaul) Date: Sat, 25 Apr 2009 07:27:37 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Reader-list] Fwd: My Brief Review of Women and Islam on the Shelfari Page In-Reply-To: <47e122a70904230749w68ad3888v4b2eaec76e9cec6a@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <697270.24854.qm@web57201.mail.re3.yahoo.com> Dear Inder   This is without commenting on some other points mentioned by you on which I have a different take, though I found extremely interesting the reference to the 'ghaib' of Ghalib and "without going into the comparison" the mention of poetry and Quran and Mohammed.   This post is with specific reference to "Prophet Mohammad ......believed that the ink of scholars is precious than the blood of martyrs."   It would be great if Muslims believed in it and adopted this as a tag-line mated to the word Islam.   I was not familiar with this quote. For what little I could explore, there would be a problem in general acceptance of it's being authentic. But, I myself advocate that Muslims should stop being too bothered about the "unquestionable authencity" of Hadeeth and Rivayaat and take on board all that support the humanistic and ennobling "Spirit of Islam".   The problem with this quote is that it apparently finds itself formally recorded nearly 600 years after Mohammed's death whereas the first compilations of Hadeeth are recorded around 200 years after Mohammed's death. Even amongst those who recorded it, the trueness is judged as being 'weak'.    http://infad.usim.edu.my/modules.php?op=modload&name=News&file=article&sid=6630   It also seems to present a very narrow perspective of 'Shadadah', which troubles me because it's acceptance would reinforce that narrow interpretation of Shahadah of (blood of) Martyrs. But that can be dismissed as my limited understanding and knowledge.   Thank you for  mentioning this quote.   Incidentally this quote finds mention as being dear to the Abbasids who ruled over that period which is often called the "Golden Age of Islam" when those who were Muslims by faith made glorious contributions to the world of Sciences etc.   I repeat "It would be great if Muslims believed in it and adopted this as a tag-line mated to the word Islam."   Kshmendra   --- On Thu, 4/23/09, Inder Salim wrote: From: Inder Salim Subject: Re: [Reader-list] Fwd: My Brief Review of Women and Islam on the Shelfari Page To: "reader-list" Date: Thursday, April 23, 2009, 8:19 PM Dear Javed, It is true, both Hadith and Quran generate meaning when studied together, like it is difficult to understand Gita without listening the entire epic of Mahabarata, (I am not a student of both, not even remotely ) Here I think of the point when a mind arrives.... when the words are uttered a little differently than usual. It is at that time , when the mind actually believes, and it must be true, that there is a hidden source to all this enigmatic outburst, which we call poetry. Aatey hain Gaib say yeh mazameen khayan mein, Ghalib Sareer-nama Nawa-ai Sarosh hai ( These verses , full of content are coming to me from unknown sources, and, he almost reminds himself, ie.Ghalib, that the sound which the hallow reed on the paper is making while writing these verses is in fact the angel, singing. ) Well, without going into the comparison, between Prophet Mohamad and Ghalib, I believe that there is a strange critical awareness in the mind too, that it is the mind itself which is composing these verses, and that is why the Ghalib’s couplet, that is why perhaps, the verses when Prophet Mohammed confessed, again though the genuine Angel, that Satan had come in disguise. It is sheer honesty. As I know, Prophet Mohamad did not write Quran himself, but his deputies wrote it down for him, which is very similar to Ved Vyas, who was not able to write Mahabarata and so a boy, or directly Lord Ganesha who wrote it down for him. We have reasons to believe that it is true, although we know that oral tradition, such as Hadith itself, or memorizing the verses was the norm those days. So it might have been compiled a little later after his death, even . Some scholars even believe that first quran was complied after 200 years after Prophet Mohammad left this temporal world. And besides there is no visible trace of any Quran of that time. I beleive, the earlierst one is 9th century old. You can correct me that, please. Mahabharata, also depicts the fight between different kings and clans, and the poet ( himself part of that clan/blood ) emphasized the reasons of war, and the lessons we might derive from it, such as ethics and sympathy for the other ( salve, women , children or the oppressed ). Krishana was sympathetic to Sudama, his poor friend etc... Not for nothing, it is often said that Prophet Mohammad was compassionate, and also believed that the ink of scholars is precious than the blood of martyrs. The times were too difficult for these oppressed clans, who were fighting constantly the rulers who were mostly Jews, and Christians at other times. It is within the infighting between Jews and Christians ( to say it very simply ) that we see the emergence of Mohammad, the prophet, Note,we say him prophet because he had the gift of being too good with words, but as I know during those days, reciting poetry in public was forbidden, can cost one dearly, even with life. So it had to be uttered secretly, probably to close friends in a cave. This is where Hadith helps us the understand, the customs, the other utterances and ways of living during those times which has indeed shaped the Quran it self. So the necessity of reading both. Quote : Truth is subjectivity. by Søren Kierkegaard with love and regards inder salim On Thu, Apr 23, 2009 at 2:42 PM, M Javed wrote: > Dear Kshmendra > There is no medieval culture or civilization which didn't have slavery > in it. In some places it is still existing in the form of castism. > While it is true that the Quran or Prophet Muhammad did not abolish > slavery, the movements to end it truly started in the Muslim world, > much before it was abolished even in Europe. It would be interesting > to take a look at a book which is even available online: > > Islam and the abolition of slavery > By W. G. Clarence-Smith > > http://books.google.co.in/books?id=nQbylEdqJKkC&dq=islam+against+slavery&printsec=frontcover&source=in&hl=en&ei=oC3wSaKiM4zW6gO_4qCfDw&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=11#PPP1,M1 > > Please explain why do you say that most people go wrong when they try > to read Quran with hadith. Almost all Islamic scholars are of the > opinion that the cryptic nature of the Quran can be best understood by > interpreting it through hadiths - the two cannot be understood without > each other. I would like you to read on essay about some new work on > the interpretation of hadith: > > http://www.isim.nl/files/review_21/review_21-6.pdf > > Javed > > > On Wed, Apr 22, 2009 at 7:43 PM, Kshmendra Kaul wrote: >> Dear Venugopalan >> >> Just a few comments on what you have written: >> >> - Mohammed's son-in-law was Ali (not Umer) >> >> - Slavery is institutionalised in Islam through the Quran. It comments on it and gives no injunction against it as being unacceptable >> >> - There is no advisory favouring the HIJAB in the Quran other than ONLY for the wives of Mohammed (this is open to interpretations). >> >> - Certain controversial advisories in the Quran and specifically the Law for Evidences, makes suspect a claim of 'equality between the sexes' as may be understood in secular terms >> >> - You err in referring to the 'monotheistic universal faith is absolutely egalitarian' of Islam as being a VISION of Mohammed. It is the VISION of ALLAH and not Mohammed. >> >> While on this subject; Most commentators on Islam including Muslims do wrong when they try to read the Quran in combination with the Hadith. The Hadith are sectarian and indeed political and may not always be in-line with the Quranic word, which makes some doubly suspect. >> >> Even in the reading of the Quran (and this is solely my own understanding), it would help both Muslims and Non-Muslims to understand things better if they were to identify the following aspects: >> >> - Self-declatory by Allah. A generalised commentary on Creator and the Creations and expectations of Creator from Creations >> >> - Advisories for Mohammed alone >> >> - Advisories for everyone >> >> - Advisories for specific times >> >> - Advisories valid in perpetuity for ever after >> >> - Commentaries of the times before Mohammed that may or may not be advisories in perpetutity for ever after >> >> Kshmendra >> >> >> --- On Wed, 4/22/09, Venugopalan K M wrote: >> >> From: Venugopalan K M >> Subject: Fwd: My Brief Review of Women and Islam on the Shelfari Page >> To: "sarai-list" >> Date: Wednesday, April 22, 2009, 6:25 PM >> >> >> >> >> >> ---------- Forwarded message ---------- >> From: Venugopalan K M >> Date: Wed, Apr 22, 2009 at 6:23 PM >> Subject: Fwd: My Brief Review of Women and Islam on the Shelfari Page >> To: >> >> >> >> Respected friends, >> Kindly send in your comments; I expect to be benefited by them as I shortly intend to publish a translation of the work in Malayalam, which is my mother tongue. >> Warmly, >> Venu. >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> Women and Islam: An Historical and Theological Enquiry >> by Fatima Mernissi >> In this book the author, who is both a feminist and a Muslim, aims to shed light on the status of women in Islam by examining and reassessing the literary sources as far back as 7th century Islam. She portrays how, far from being the oppressor of women that his detractors have claimed, the Prophet upheld the equality of all true believers. Here is a bold reconciliation of feminism with the... (more) >> >> kmvenuannur >> o Rated 0 stars >> >> “ Fatima Mernissi has done an epoch making and scholarly exploration of the Suras (original Quranic verses) and the Hadits (accounts by the Companions of the Prophet about how the Messenger of God responded to challenging moments in the lives of first generation of believers,methodically cross checked and compiled by religious scholars who lived in the first two centuries of Islam) along with the interpretations since then. The major findings of the author are the following: >> 1. The Prophet undoubtedly wanted no separation between the public and private realms of life. >> 2. His vision of a monotheistic universal faith is absolutely egalitarian and that is a world in which women could shoulder equal roles with that of men in political, social and economic realms with a view to creating a new world that would assure peace and happiness to all humans. >> 3. While Islam would not sanction the practice of slavery among the believers, continuation of that institution for several centuries was possible in the actual islamic regimes thanks to the denial of option (to the new religion )to the prisoners of wars, who were mostly women from the pre Islamic kingdoms. However,their chidren were considered free persons. These women were treated as slaves and they were traded off or exchanged as booty. >> 4.The descend of Hijab,the physical as well as the symbolicl separation of private and public spaces happened as a response to the grave crisis in the Medina priod,which corresponded to the later phase in the life of the Prophet. Years between Hejra 3-8 (AD 625- 628) were crtical periods of crisis characterized by severe losses and uncertainity both on the side of military expetitions and on the socio-economic life of people. >> 5. Evenwhile the Prophet together with his wives and many of the articulate women in the Medinese city continued adherence to the principle of equality( between men and women) , they encountered lot of social abuses on account of this. >> 6. The prominent of the male Companions led by his son in law Umer continuously pressed on the Prophet to impose restrictions for women. They persisted on the view that solution to the above crisis of credibility and above all the insecurity, was in the separation of the Muslim space into two- public space was to be preserved as exclusive domain of men, and the private space as the secluded space for women- both these spaces to be separated by a Hijab- >> 7. The Hijab ultimately descended from the Heaven as revealed to the Prophet during the night of a wedding dinner in connection with his first night with Zainab in the year Hejra 5 (AD 627). The immediate provocation of the incident, according to a Hadith, was boorish behaviour of three men who continued to linger there chatting, sitting in the room without leaving the place even after the dinner; Prophet was eagerly waiting to be left alone in the company of Zainab,his new bride sitting in the same room. ” >> kmvenuannur wrote this review 1 minute ago. ( reply | edit |permalink ) >> >> >> >> >> >> _________________________________________ >> reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. >> Critiques & Collaborations >> To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with subscribe in the subject header. >> To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list >> List archive: > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with subscribe in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> -- http://indersalim.livejournal.com _________________________________________ reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. Critiques & Collaborations To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with subscribe in the subject header. To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> From taraprakash at gmail.com Sat Apr 25 20:41:05 2009 From: taraprakash at gmail.com (taraprakash) Date: Sat, 25 Apr 2009 11:11:05 -0400 Subject: [Reader-list] What the Communists have done to West Bengal in 30years ! References: <6b79f1a70904241147p1acb491dx912c2265a147a83e@mail.gmail.com> <6b79f1a70904250158j2e0554a0m231e68013a4860d8@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <0DCD73D59F0B41D3B6F25925B27825F6@tara> Some important statistics that this report does not include, (not that I have read in its entirety) Population control: West Bengal has less number of people than rest of India. Secularism control: There are less number of Hindus, Muslims, Christians, Sikhs, Budhists and Jains than the rest of India. Political control: There are less number of chief minister (just 1) than the rest of India (which has 25 chief ministers?) Illiteracy control: There are less number of illiterate people in West Bengal than rest of India. Thanks ----- Original Message ----- From: "Pawan Durani" To: "reader-list" Sent: Saturday, April 25, 2009 4:58 AM Subject: [Reader-list] What the Communists have done to West Bengal in 30years ! > "An interesting report card about the left front government. I wonder > do we need these people to take India in next century or move it to > where the USSR splitted and Communism failed ?" > > This report card has been prepeared by Congress I , the ruling party > in India with whom the Communists had an alliance till few months > back. > > > 30 YEARS OF LEFT FRONT RULE IN WEST BENGAL: > A DEVELOPMENT REPORT CARD > APRIL 5, 2009 > > Table of Contents > > > 1. Health and Nutrition 3 > Even after 30 years of Left rule, West Bengal has very high levels > of > hunger and malnutrition when compared to the rest of India. > 2. Education 5 > Even after 30 years of Left rule, West Bengal is failing to keep > children in school and to ensure learning among them. > 3. Employment Generation 7 > Even after 30 years of Left rule, negligible new employment is being > created in West Bengal, even as other states are forging ahead. > 4. Poverty 8 > Even after 30 years of Left rule, most of West Bengal's districts > are > among the poorest in India. It also has the ominous distinction of > having India's poorest district. > 5. Income Growth 9 > Even after 30 years of Left rule, West Bengal has very high levels > of > hunger and malnutrition when compared to the rest of India. > 6. Law and Order 10 > After 30 years of Left rule, the ranking of West Bengal among Indian > states in terms of per capita income has slid dramatically. > 7. Basic Services and Infrastructure 11 > Even after 30 years of Left rule, West Bengal has under-invested in > protecting its citizens. The incidence of heinous crimes in West > Bengal is disproportionately high when compared to other states of > India. > 8. Welfare of Backward Classes 12 > Even after 30 years of Left rule, the Left government has failed to > provide access to essential services and basic infrastructure to the > people of West Bengal. > > > > 1. Health & Nutrition > > Even after 30 years of Left rule, West Bengal has very high levels of > hunger and malnutrition when compared to the rest of India. > > · Hunger > West Bengal has the highest rate of hunger in rural households among > major Indian states. > o This is validated in a recent Study led by Jean Dreze and Angus > Deaton (see below). > > > · Malnutrition of Women > o Married women in West Bengal, on average, have a lower body-mass > index than the average Indian woman, suggesting greater > undernourishment. Married women in West Bengal also have a greater > likelihood of suffering from anemia than the average Indian woman. > o This data is from the West Bengal government’s own Human > Development > Report. > > > > · Not spending Central Government Funds on Healthcare > West Bengal government has failed to fully and effectively spend the > money released to it by the Central government, year after year. > > > · Failure to spend on urban health services: > Comptroller & Auditor General of India, Audit Report (Civil), West > Bengal for the Year 2006-2007 notes that: > “During 2002-2007, the (West Bengal government’s) department could > not spend the budgeted funds of Rs 357.13 crore for urban health > services. Further, unutilised funds of Rs 1.50 crore remained parked > in the personal ledger accounts of the Superintendents of two > hospitals for over seven years.” > 2. Education > > Even after 30 years of Left rule, West Bengal is failing to keep > children in school and to ensure learning among them. > > · Drop-out Rates > West Bengal has the second highest school dropout rate among major > states of India. > > > · Learning of Children > > The level of learning of children in rural West Bengal schools is, on > average, lower than most other states of India. > > > · Poor Implementation of Mid-Day Meal Scheme > The Comptroller & Auditor General of India, Performance Audit Report > of the National Programme for Nutritional Support to Primary Education > (Midday Meal Scheme), 2008 notes that: > o “In test checked schools, cooked meals were not served for 37 per > cent of the targeted 78,114 school-days due to delayed implementation > of the programme, short receipt of rice, cooking cost, etc.” > o Rs. 4.82 crore was claimed in excess of the actual spend for food > grain transportation. > o Pucca kitchen sheds were not available in 71 per cent of the > schools. > o Drinking water was not available in 29 per cent of the schools. > Gas > stoves were not available in 99 percent of the schools. > > > 3. Employment Generation > > After 30 years of Left rule, negligible new employment is being > created in West Bengal, even as other states are forging ahead. > > · Employment growth > o Employment growth outside agriculture in West Bengal is way behind > that of other comparable states and also behind the national average. > o Employment growth has practically come to a halt in urban areas. > > · National Rural Employment Guarantee Scheme Implementation > o While it complains about lack of support from the central > government, the West Bengal government is failing to utilize funds > allocated to it by the Centre to implement the scheme. > § According to the CAG of India Performance Audit in 2008, the West > Bengal government spent only 66.6% of the funds made available for the > National Rural Employment Guarantee Scheme (NREGS) in 2006-07. > o There is over-reporting of the implementation of the scheme, the > actual implementation is much lower. According to a CAG of India > Performance Audit in 2008: > § Excess reporting of 6.06 lakh man days of cumulative employment > generation was noticed just in Purulia district alone. > § Excess reporting of funds utilization of Rs. 0.99 crore was > noticed > in both Medinipur and Purulia districts. > 4. Poverty > > Even after 30 years of Left rule, most of West Bengal’s districts are > among the poorest in India. It also has the ominous distinction of > having India’s poorest district. > · 14 out of West Bengal’s 18 districts (i.e. 78% of the districts) > are among the 100 poorest districts in India. > · The poorest district in India is Murshidabad in West Bengal, where > 56% of the people live in abject poverty. An astonishing 1.47% of > India’s rural poor live in this one district alone. > Source: 2009 Study by Indian Statistical Institute for the Ministry of > Statistics and Programme Implementation; based on analysis of NSS Data > > 5. Income Growth > > After 30 years of Left rule, the ranking of West Bengal among Indian > states in terms of per capita income has slid dramatically. > · West Bengal has gone from having the second position in per capita > income among Indian states in 1960/61 to the ninth position in > 2004/05. > Ranking of Indian States by Per Capita Income > 1960/61 1980/81 2004/05 > Maharashtra 1 2 2 > West Bengal 2 5 9 > Punjab 3 1 3 > Gujarat 4 4 4 > Tamil Nadu 5 8 6 > Haryana 6 3 1 > Assam 7 12 10 > Karnataka 8 6 7 > Rajasthan 9 14 11 > Andhra Pradesh 10 9 8 > Kerala 11 7 5 > Madhya Pradesh 12 10 13 > Orissa 13 11 12 > Uttar Pradesh 14 13 14 > Bihar 15 15 15 > > Source: Central Statistical Organization (CSO) > 6. Law & OrderEven after 30 years of Left rule, West Bengal has > under-invested in protecting its citizens. The incidence of heinous > crimes in West Bengal is disproportionately high when compared to > other states of India.· Police ForceWest Bengal has under-invested in > protecting its citizens – it has fewer policemen per capita than the > all-India average. · Incidence of heinous crimesThe incidence of > heinous crimes is much higher than the incidence in other comparable > states and the all-India average. 7. Basic Services and > InfrastructureEven after 30 years of Left rule, the Left government > has failed to provide access to essential services and basic > infrastructure to the people of West Bengal.· Availability of Drinking > Water Only a quarter of households in West Bengal have access to safe > drinking water, which is far less than other comparable states. · > Road > connectivityLess than half the habitations in West Bengal are > connected by pucca roads, which is far less than other comparable > states. > > 8. Welfare of Backward Classes > > Even after 30 years of Left rule, the Left government has failed to > look after the interests of the weaker sections of West Bengal, > especially SC/ST groups. > Observations made in the Comptroller & Auditor General of India > Report, “Audit Report (Civil) for the year ended 31 March 2007” > · During 2001-2006, against a budget of Rs 1.43 crores for > pre-matric > scholarships, only Rs 0.43 crore (30 per cent) were granted and paid > to SC/ST students. > · In seven test-checked districts, 25,000 SC and 4000 ST students > were > deprived of post-matric scholarships due to non-release of required > funds. Further, over 74,000 students faced a delay of between 12 – 22 > months in receiving their scholarships in the seven districts > surveyed. > · Against the state’s budgeted provision of Rs 92.37 crores for > payment of book grants, the concerned state government department > released only Rs 77.80 crores, thus depriving 14.15 lakh students of > the benefits of the scheme. > · As of March 2006, construction of two central hostels for SC/ST > students was not started due to land dispute and construction of seven > more hostels remained incomplete due to delayed selection of sites and > delayed release of funds. Further, eight additional hostels remained > vacant for want of matrons, superintendents and other staff and > required basic infrastructure facilities. Shockingly, two of the > hostels were being used as Government offices and residences. > · In the absence of adequate inspection, hostel grants were paid to > the school authorities on the basis of sanctioned strength of > boarders, instead of actual number of students accommodated therein. > As a result, several instances of excess payment of hostel grants > aggregating Rs 39.35 lakh were noticed in the audit. > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > subscribe in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> From rakesh.rnbdj at gmail.com Sat Apr 25 20:40:35 2009 From: rakesh.rnbdj at gmail.com (Rakesh Iyer) Date: Sat, 25 Apr 2009 20:40:35 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Fwd: Fw: Complaint against DNA's coverage of recent rape case in Mumbai In-Reply-To: <268259.58637.qm@web57207.mail.re3.yahoo.com> References: <268259.58637.qm@web57207.mail.re3.yahoo.com> Message-ID: Dear all As per the blog and the news link given, it is utterly shocking for some, but for me this is only a further fall into the depths to which our morality as a society has sunk. Today, with the cut-throat competition and the kind of rhetoric our society and many among us have fallen to, this is only the next stage of the levels to which we can sink. What shocks me so much is that why didn't people register a case against the DNA, at least as a public interest litigation? After all, at least that could have been done, with the SC today spending more time in deciding these PIL's rather than other cases. Surely, that could have been done to take the DNA to task for publishing such reports. Equally, the courts should have also taken suo-motu cognizance of the case and punished the newspaper. This is not only for this particular case; it has happened in many cases. During 2002 riots, Gujarati newspaper 'Sandesh' gave false news items like some Shiva temple destroyed somewhere or some other Hindu killed, when there were none. Not less than the PUCL report proved it to be a bag of lies. Here too, nothing happened. Similarly our AIMIM also has indulged in various riots for which they spread brilliant rumours, in old areas of Hyderabad. The point is not that some people consider rape an entertainment first; some fools and hoodlum attitude-bearing people will always be born in a society or will be created. The larger issue is that these should not be allowed to conduct blasphemous acts which tantamount to spreading lies and falsedoms or wrong methods. The freedom of speech has an inherent duty within it that people should speak the truth, and what they are not sure about, they should state that it's their opinion. Resorting to lies is an insult to this freedom. Regards Rakesh From pkray11 at gmail.com Sun Apr 26 02:34:49 2009 From: pkray11 at gmail.com (prakash ray) Date: Sun, 26 Apr 2009 02:34:49 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] What the Communists have done to West Bengal in 30 years! Message-ID: <98f331e00904251404m5e7a6333gac953495e1e07640@mail.gmail.com> Dear all,Please read this article on the Left rule in Bengal. PKR http://www.pragoti.org/node/12 THIRTY YEARS OF THE LEFT FRONT GOVERNMENT IN WEST BENGAL Thu, 2007-07-19 00:00 | Prasenjit Bose The formation of the Left Front Government in West Bengal was a culmination of decades of struggles by various sections of the people — workers, peasants, teachers, refugees and students — under the leadership of the Left, and its biggest component the CPI (M). This is an article by PRASENJIT BOSE.* Historical Outline * The formation of the Left Front Government in West Bengal was a culmination of decades of struggles by various sections of the people — workers, peasants, teachers, refugees and students — under the leadership of the Left, and its biggest component the CPI (M). Faced with the rising tide of struggles and the growing influence of the CPI (M) and the Left, the Congress government, which was formed after it blatantly rigged the elections in 1972, resorted to a reign of semi-fascist terror in West Bengal. The CPI (M) and the mass organizations faced the brunt of this repression. 1,100 Party workers and close sympathizers were killed. In the general elections of 1977 the Congress was severely punished by the people of the country for its authoritarian and anti-democratic actions during the Emergency. The Janata Party Government was formed at the Centre with Morarji Desai as Prime Minister. The Assembly elections in West Bengal were held shortly after the general elections in 1977. The people came out to vote in very large numbers to get rid of the reign of terror. The Left Front won by over three-fourth majority. While assuming office in 1977, the Left Front government was aware of the limitations of a State government in implementing pro-people policies within the existing Constitutional set-up. While the major responsibility of delivering services to the people was with the State Governments, financial resources were concentrated in the hands of the Centre. Keeping in mind this constraint, the Left Front government embarked upon a programme to provide immediate relief to the people and implementing alternative policies in spheres where the State government had some say. The major initiatives of the first Left Front government were to carry out thoroughgoing land reforms and establishing a vibrant Panchayati Raj. These historic initiatives broke the back of landlordism in the rural areas and immensely empowered the poor peasantry and agricultural workers. Large sections of the rural poor, especially the dalits, adivasis and minorities, gravitated towards the Left and the CPI (M). This section continues to be the most stable mass base of the CPI (M) and the Left Front till date. Several other pro-people initiatives were also undertaken regarding workers’ rights and social sector development, which benefited different sections of the people: factory workers, unorganised workers, government employees, school and college teachers, students, youth, women and the refugees. Through their experience, the majority of the people of West Bengal came to recognize the Left Front government as a pro-people government, a custodian of their rights and a fighter for their cause. Therefore, since 1977, neither did the people ever look back nor did the Left Front government. *Land Reforms, Democratic Decentralization and Agricultural Success* Land Reforms The land reforms initiated in West Bengal had three major components: (i) effective imposition of land ceiling and vesting of ceiling surplus land (ii) redistribution of vested land among the landless cultivators and (iii) securing of tenancy rights of sharecroppers (bargadars) through a system of universal registration of tenant cultivators (Operation Barga). As a result of this thoroughgoing land reform programme, West Bengal today has the most egalitarian land ownership pattern in the entire country. While West Bengal accounts for only around 3% of agricultural land in India, it accounted for over 21% of ceiling surplus land that has been redistributed in India till date. The total number of beneficiaries of land redistribution in West Bengal is over 28 lakhs, which is almost 50% of all beneficiaries of land redistribution in post-independence India. The security of tenancy rights provided to the sharecroppers under Operation Barga was also unprecedented in India. The total number of recorded sharecroppers has reached over 15 lakhs, which accounts for over 20% of the total agricultural households in the State. Over 11 lakh acres of land was permanently brought under the control of sharecroppers and their right to cultivate land was firmly established. After 30 years of Left Front rule, 84% of land in West Bengal is owned by small (owning 2.5 acres to 5 acres of land) and marginal farmers (owning less than 2.5 acres) today, while the all-India figure is only 43%. Over 12 lakh acres of ceiling surplus vested land is lying with various State governments today but not being distributed among the landless. This shows the difference in the political will of the Left Front government in West Bengal and other State governments run by bourgeois parties. Moreover, around 56% of the total beneficiaries of land redistribution in West Bengal are dalits and adivasis. Dalits and adivasis also comprise over 41% of the registered sharecroppers. NSS data show that the proportion of agricultural land owned by dalits in comparison with their proportion in the rural population of West Bengal is the second highest in the country (after Tripura). Till date, over 5.35 lakh women have been given joint pattas and 1.57 lakh women given individual pattas (ownership rights over land) in West Bengal. Muslims have also benefited significantly from the land reforms programme. The share of land cultivated by Muslims in West Bengal in total cultivated land is 25.6%, which is the second highest in the country (second only to Jammu and Kashmir where the share is 30.3%). Following the onset of the neoliberal policies in the decade of 1990s, whatever land reform measures were undertaken in most Indian States in the post-independence period were sought to be reversed. However, in West Bengal an additional 95,000 acres of land was acquired in the 1990s under the land reform legislation and 94,000 acres redistributed. These figures for the decade of the 1990s account for almost all the land acquired and over 40 per cent of the land redistributed in the entire country. The Left Front government has continued with the land redistribution programme. 30,000 acres of land was distributed among landless families in 2006-07. Panchayati Raj Reorganisation of the system of local government has been one of the most important institutional changes brought about by the Left Front government. In the process, West Bengal has created a history of participation of the common people through the process of decentralisation. A system of democratic elections to local bodies at anchal, block and district level has been instituted: gram panchayats at the anchal level, panchayat samitis at the block level and zilla parishads at the district level. Elections to these local bodies were held in June 1978. The newly elected panchayats were involved with the execution of land reforms. Panchayats took the initiative in exposing benami land holdings, ensured the identification of excess land and the declaration of vested land and were also given charge of ensuring the legal rights of recipients of vested land and bargadars over land. The panchayats were also involved in arrangements for the provision of institutional credit for the beneficiaries of vested land and for bargadars. After the rural development projects were devolved to panchayats for implementation, the beneficiaries of land reform were given priority in the receipt of benefits from these projects. This was possible because through the panchayat election of 1978, a new leadership was established at the helm of the rural bodies from less privileged socio-economic backgrounds. The erstwhile village elite, including landlords and moneylenders, lost their dominance over the newly elected local bodies. The new leadership after 1978 came out of the tradition of peasant upsurge and struggle for land reform of the past three decades. The West Bengal government has held regular elections to local bodies every five years for the past 30 years. The aim has been to provide a substantial share of fiscal resources of the state to the local bodies. The West Bengal government has made a serious effort at devolving funds from the state government level to the lower tiers of administration. The panchayats have also been assigned a large and substantial range of responsibilities that were earlier seen as under the purview of the district-level bureaucracy. The panchayats perform civic duties and undertake developmental activities like construction and maintenance of hospitals, schools and libraries, promotion of agriculture, cooperatives and cottage industries, child welfare activities, etc. They play an important role in the local-level planning and implementation of government schemes. Panchayats in West Bengal have played an important role in activities like mobilising cooperation for improving agricultural production, management of local resources, and identification of beneficiaries for housing, poverty alleviation and social security programmes. This has made the panchayats a critical institution of local governance in the West Bengal countryside. Over time, there has been an increase in the representation of the rural poor and of socially deprived groups like dalits and adivasis, as well as women, in the elected bodies. All this has helped to change the power equations in rural society as well as encouraged the social and political empowerment of social groups that were earlier marginalized. The proportions of dalit and adivasi panchayat representatives in all the three tiers are over 37% and 7% respectively, well over their share in population. Since 1995, one third of the seats and positions of chairpersons in the panchayati raj institutions have been reserved for women. It is noteworthy that the actual representation of women exceeds one third as a number of women candidates also win in the general constituencies. Presently, over 36% of the gram panchayat members are women. Also, 7 out of 17 zilla parishads have a woman sabhadhipati and 155 out of 351 panchayat samities have a woman sabhapati. In the late 1990s, the panchayati raj system in West Bengal was further strengthened by introducing gram sansads. These are the general councils of voters in every ward, that are required to meet twice a year with a minimum quorum of 10 per cent of voters to discuss the work done by the panchayats and utilisation of funds. Successes in Agriculture This strategy of the Left Front government; of implementing land reforms on the one hand and the establishment of an effective panchayati raj in West Bengal on the other; has not only led to the political empowerment of the rural poor but has also brought about a rejuvenation of agriculture in the State. Since the Left Front came into office in 1977, foodgrains production in West Bengal has grown at the rate of 6% per annum, which is the highest among seventeen most populous States of India. From a food deficit State witnessing famines and food riots during the Congress rule, West Bengal has emerged as a leading food producer in the country under the Left Front rule. West Bengal has emerged as the topmost producer of rice, vegetables and fish among all Indian States. Cropping intensity in West Bengal has increased from about 136% in 1980-81 to about 180% in 2000-01, second highest in the country. This has been achieved through significant expansion of irrigated land area through small and minor irrigation projects. In the backdrop of the neoliberal policies being adopted by the Centre since early 1990s, agricultural growth has slowed down across the country. While agriculture grew at less than 2% in India during the Tenth Plan period (2002-2007), the growth rate of agriculture in West Bengal has been over 3.5%. The Left Front Government has been successful, to some extent, in insulating the agrarian economy of West Bengal from the acute agrarian distress currently being witnessed across the country. This has been possible by following pro-peasant policies. For instance, the charge for flow of water in agriculture under major irrigation has not been increased in West Bengal since 1977. Water for irrigation is the cheapest in West Bengal at Rs. 37 per hectare in West Bengal compared to Rs 156 to Rs 267 per hectare in the rest of the states of the country (except for Kerala where it is much lower). Agricultural workers are also protected and the minimum wage of Rs. 63 is implemented effectively, in contrast to many other States where despite the scheduled minimum wage rates being higher, they are not implemented effectively. *Industrialization: An Imperative* Reversing Industrial Stagnation For most parts of its lengthy tenure, the Left Front government has had to encounter hostile governments at the Centre. There was a conscious effort on the part of successive Central governments, particularly those run by the Congress, to discourage industrialization in West Bengal since it was a Left ruled State. This was done both through a denial of public sector investment as well as licenses for setting up private industries. During Indira Gandhi’s tenure as the Prime minister in the early 1980s, a proposal for setting up an electronics complex in Salt Lake near Kolkata was shot down by the Central government on security grounds, because West Bengal was a border State! Permission for the Haldia Petrochemical project was withheld by the Central government for 11 long years. The freight equalization policy; which meant that railway freight rates of industrial inputs like coal, iron ore, steel or cement were structured in a way through Government subsidies so that they were available at the same price in all parts of the country; also became a major obstacle. This robbed West Bengal, along with the other states in the Eastern region of India like Bihar and Orissa, of its locational advantage of being rich in those minerals which came under the purview of freight equalization. Other industrial inputs were not included in the freight equalization scheme. Following these discriminatory policies pursued by the Centre and the vitriolic anti-Communist propaganda carried out by the bourgeois media, which led to some degree of capital flight, West Bengal experienced industrial stagnation during the decade of the 1980s. Traditional industries like tea, jute and engineering were on a decline. This aggravated the unemployment situation in the State, especially in the urban areas, besides causing hardships for the workers in the sick industries. The need was felt to make special efforts to reverse the trend towards industrial stagnation and re-industrialize West Bengal. Meanwhile, a big policy shift had come at the national level when the Narasimha Rao led Congress Government adopted the “New Economic Policies” in 1991 following the dictates of the IMF and the World Bank. The neoliberal “economic reforms” initiated by the Central government abandoned the earlier emphasis on public sector investment, devised a strategy of liberalizing and deregulating the economy and laid emphasis on private capital, both domestic and foreign, as the main driver of economic growth. These policy changes were clearly in the rightwing direction, which was opposed by the CPI (M) and the Left. However, it also meant an end to the discriminatory policy regime of the Central government, based upon licensing and freight equalization policy, which had caused enormous harm to the economic interests of West Bengal. It was in this backdrop that the Left Front government had to devise its industrialization strategy. In September 1994, Comrade Jyoti Basu announced the Industrial Policy of the Left Front government in the changed scenario, which stated: “we are all for new technology and investment in selective spheres where they help our economy and which are of mutual interest. The goal of self-reliance, however, is as needed today as earlier. We have the state sector, the private sector and also the joint sector. All these have a role to play”. Following the adoption of the Industrial Policy, the industrial scenario in the state witnessed a turnaround, with important projects like Haldia Petrochemicals and Bakreshwar Thermal Power plants finally being set up. Industrialization Gathering Momentum The process of industrialization received further impetus after the Left Front government registered its sixth consecutive victory with Comrade Buddhadeb Bhattacharya as Chief Minister in 2001 and subsequently its seventh victory in 2006, with an enhanced majority. During the period from 1991 to 2006 a total number of 1,391 industrial units have been set up in West Bengal with a realized investment of Rs. 32,338.95 crore and creating direct employment for 2.03 lakh persons in the organized sector. The number of new industrial proposals in West Bengal is increasing progressively, especially in sectors like Iron and Steel, Chemical and Petrochemicals, Food Processing and Information Technology. Since the thrust of the West Bengal government’s industrial strategy is on employment generation, the focus is not limited to big industries alone. The State government has consciously provided policy support to small and micro enterprises, because of which the number of unorganised manufacturing enterprises in West Bengal has increased from 19.1 lakhs in 1994-95 to 27.7 lakhs in 2000-01, with employment in these industries during this period increasing from 43.8 lakhs to 58.7 lakh. West Bengal now ranks first among all Indian States in respect to both the number of working units and employment generation in the small-scale industrial sector. The West Bengal government is providing infrastructure support to the small-scale industries by building industrial clusters in all districts of the State, with a target of 150 such clusters set for the Eleventh Plan period. Unlike other State governments, which succumbed to the neoliberal prescriptions of the Centre, the Left Front government has followed a different approach towards industrialization. Rather than following the policy of indiscriminate privatization of public sector units, the Left Front government has sought to strengthen them and earnestly tried to revive sick or closed industrial units. By repeatedly placing its views before the BIFR in the interest of industry and workers, the Left Front government has been able to obtain the sanction of revival scheme in respect of 79 units. Of these, 22 units have already been revived and about 25 more units are likely to be revived. SAIL has recently decided to invest Rs. 10,000 crore in the modernization of the IISCO factory at Burnpur, which will be one of the biggest public sector investment projects currently being undertaken in the country. The Central government had earlier decided to privatize this sick unit. It was the protracted struggle waged by the IISCO workers and the principled position adopted by the West Bengal Government, which prevented privatization and has subsequently led to the revival of IISCO. Similarly, Bengal Chemicals, which had become a sick PSU, is being revived with Central investments worth Rs 440 crore. Recently, two public sector units, Coal India Limited and Damodar Valley Corporation have come together to acquire and revive the Mining and Allied Machineries Corporation (MAMC) based in Durgapur, a prestigious PSU that was closed few years ago. Closed units like Jessop and Dunlop have also been reopened. Rather than following the dictates of the Central government in privatizing the State Electricity Board, the West Bengal government has firmly maintained the public ownership of the WBSEB and initiated reforms to improve its performance. The WBSEB, which was a loss making entity till recently, registered a profit of Rs. 300 crore in 2006-07. All this reflect the alternative approach of the left front government. Some controversy has arisen recently over acquisition of agricultural land for setting up industries in West Bengal, especially in the context of the Tata Motors plant in Singur and a proposed chemical hub near Haldia. While the opportunistic gang-up of the entire opposition, from the ultra-Right to the ultra-Left led by the reactionary Trinamul Congress, has sought to pitch the debate in terms of industry versus agriculture, the Left Front government has repeatedly emphasized the need for a balanced and harmonious development of both sectors. The slogan of “agriculture is our foundation, industry our future”, put forward by the Left Front before the Assembly elections of 2006 has received wide acceptance among the people. *Pro-People Initiatives and Constraints* Education The Left Front government in West Bengal has undertaken several pro-people initiatives to ensure all-round development of the State. The Left Front government has ensured significant expansion in the spheres of public education and health. The first Left Front government had made school education free upto the higher secondary stage. With a thrust on the expansion of school education, the number of schools in West Bengal has seen a substantial increase in the post-1977 period, with the number of secondary and higher secondary schools registering a four fold increase, from 4600 in 1977 to over 22,500 in 2006. Accordingly, the number of students appearing for the secondary board examination has increased from a little over 2 lakhs in 1977 to over 7.5 lakhs in 2006. Positive results have also been seen recently in the implementation of the Sarva Shiksha Abhiyan, with the net enrolment ratio of children of the relevant age group (5+ to 8+) exceeding 98% in 2006-07. The drop-out ratio has also fallen below 20% due to the effective implementation of the mid-day meals scheme, which now covers 94% of the primary schools in the State. This has been made possible through the involvement of Self-Help Groups in providing cooked meals in the schools. Health West Bengal has witnessed significant improvements in some health indicators in the recent past. The death rate in West Bengal at 6.4 per thousand is the lowest in the country. The infant mortality rate has also dropped to 38 per 1000 live births, which is much lower than the national average at 58. The birth rate in the urban areas of West Bengal is the lowest within urban areas of the country and the total fertility rate has also fallen much below the national average, with the State heading towards achieving the population stabilization goal by the end of the Eleventh Plan. This has been possible due to active government intervention in the sphere of public health. West Bengal has also registered significant successes in providing access to toilets and safe drinking water, especially to the poorer section of the population. The State government had set a goal of providing 40 litres of safe drinking water per capita per day in each habitation in the rural areas. Already, 81% of the 91320 rural habitations of the State have been covered fully. This is the second highest coverage achieved by a State in the country. As far as sanitation is concerned, West Bengal has the second highest coverage of access to toilets for all BPL households as well as for all Scheduled Caste households in urban areas, in the country. These have been possible due to the concerted efforts by the State government and the local bodies in the implementation of the programmes. The National Health Accounts published by the Union Ministry of Health in 2001-02 showed that public expenditure on health in West Bengal was the second highest in the country (Maharashtra had the highest figure). In fact, around 80% of the indoor patients in West Bengal today are treated in Government hospitals, while the all-India figure stands at only 50%. This obviously translates into affordable healthcare for the people. The total per capita health expenditure in West Bengal was lower than the national average on account of very low private expenditure on health compared to other States. While the per capita health expenditure in West Bengal needs to increase substantially, what is noteworthy is the effort on the part of the government to commit substantial resources for public health in a fiscally constrained scenario. Workers’ Rights The Left Front government has firmly defended the trade union rights of the workers. It has also taken important steps to provide social security to workers like introducing a provident fund scheme for unorganised sector workers for the first time in the country (nearly 7.9 lakh workers have already joined the scheme so far), providing financial assistance of Rs. 750 per month to workers of closed factories and tea gardens and providing social security to the construction workers. Another important development in West Bengal in the recent years from the point of view of employment generation is the phenomenal growth of Self-Help Groups (SHGs). The total number of SHGs in West Bengal reached 3.8 lakhs in 2005-06, involving nearly 38 lakh persons, 90% of whom are women. This has opened up new possibilities for self-employment and women’s empowerment. When the seventh Left Front government assumed office in 2006, a dedicated Ministry to provide policy support to these SHGs was created. Minority Welfare The Left Front government has also taken positive initiatives to uplift the Muslim minorities, who comprise over 26% of the State’s population and are socio-economically backward. The West Bengal Minority Development Finance Corporation (WBMFDC), which was formed in 1996 following the passage of an Act in the State Assembly, provides training as well as soft loans for self-employment and scholarships for meritorious students among Muslims. The WBMFDC ranks second, both in terms of cumulative disbursement of funds (from 1994-95 to 2005-06) as well as the number of beneficiaries, among all the State level minority development corporations. It has disbursed Rs.10751 crore to 28904 beneficiaries over this period. If the fact that the Uttar Pradesh MFDC started disbursing funds from 1994-95 (i.e. two years before the WBMFDC started disbursing funds) is taken into account, then the performance of the WBMFDC clearly emerges as the best in the country. Challenges and Constraints There is no doubt that the West Bengal government needs to do much more as far as people’s welfare is concerned, especially for the socio-economically disadvantaged groups. The areas in which improvement has to be brought about have been noted by the West Bengal Human Development Report 2004. The Sachar Committee Report 2006 also pointed towards the necessity of adopting concrete steps for the upliftment of the Muslim minorities. The Left Front government has been proactive in taking initiatives to do away with the shortcomings that continue to exist in its developmental effort. For instance, the Left Front government was the first State government to announce a sub-Plan for minorities at the State level, earmarking 15% of all Plan expenditure for development programmes meant to benefit minorities and implement the recommendations of the Sachar Committee. Several new initiatives have also been taken to improve the quality of public service in school education and public health in order to improve the human development scenario. However, the capacity of the Left Front government to deliver in the spheres of peoples’ welfare and social infrastructure has been severely constrained by the limited availability of resources. Unless the resource constraint is overcome, major welfare initiatives cannot be undertaken. While a part of the additional resources can be generated through internal resource mobilization, much depends upon the direction of economic and social policies of the Central government too. The power to take crucial economic policy decisions in India rests with the Central government and not the State governments. Within the existing Constitutional set up, while the State governments are expected to deliver upon a lot of responsibilities related to development and peoples’ welfare, the financial resources available to them have remained extremely limited given the skewed nature of Centre-State relations. The skewedness in Centre-State relations has aggravated in the post-liberalization period. Finances of most State governments have worsened due to growing indebtedness, squeeze in resource transfers from the Central Government to the States, rising interest cost of States’ debt and conditionalities regarding fiscal austerity imposed upon State governments through successive Finance Commissions and the Planning Commission. The Left Front government in West Bengal has also not been able to escape this predicament. The Left Front government has tried to resist the neoliberal reforms imposed by the Central government. For instance, the West Bengal Government has rejected the dictate of the Centre regarding the enactment of the neoliberal Fiscal Responsibility legislation, which in effect binds the capacity of the state governments to undertake development expenditure. Alongwith the Left led Governments of Kerala and Tripura, the West Bengal government also resisted attempts by the Centre to force all States to undertake neoliberal pension reforms, which seeks to privatize the pension system. Similar unity between the Left led governments was on display during a recent meeting of the National Development Council on Agriculture, where efforts were made by the Centre to impose reforms of the State level APMC Acts and get all the States to endorse contract farming by corporates. The struggle for restructuring Centre-State relations is crucial for creating the autonomous space for the Left Front government to continue with its pro-people policies in future. *Conclusion* A big achievement of the Left Front government in West Bengal is its record in safeguarding democratic rights. Notwithstanding the vicious campaigns unleashed against it from time to time by its opponents, the Left Front government continues to remain firmly committed to democratic values and principles. Its impeccable record in upholding secularism and communal harmony, dealing with communal elements with a firm hand and defending the rights of minorities is a welcome exception to the programmatic or pragmatic communalism practiced by the bourgeois parties and the State governments led by them. The fact that the communal RSS-BJP combine have failed to gain any significant foothold in the State is primarily because of the relentless ideological-political campaign against communalism, in which the Left Front government leads from the front. While dalits and adivasis across the country continue to be victims of caste violence, it is indeed heartening to find that West Bengal has an almost zero rate of atrocities against dalits and adivasis. The Left Front government also has the distinction of resolving the Gorkhaland issue, in a just and democratic manner within the framework of the Indian Constitution, by providing regional autonomy to the Darjeeling Gorkha Hill Council. Born out of the struggles against authoritarianism and State repression, it is the commitment of the Left Front government to democracy, which has won it enormous credibility in the eyes of the people of West Bengal and enabled it to complete thirty years in office. *This incisive and thought provoking article was contributed by Prasenjit Bose. He is a PhD in Economics from JNU, and is currently into full time research.* From 2tahamehmood at googlemail.com Sun Apr 26 05:19:25 2009 From: 2tahamehmood at googlemail.com (Taha Mehmood) Date: Sun, 26 Apr 2009 00:49:25 +0100 Subject: [Reader-list] On Kafka and 'unintended benefits' of smart cards. Message-ID: <65be9bf40904251649x3600ee05r2af0f86f6e3dedaa@mail.gmail.com> Dear All, In his essay on Kafka, Adam Kirsch explains the term“Kafkaesque” as thus: 'the nonchalant intrusion of the bizarre and horrible into everyday life, the subjection of ordinary people to an inscrutable fate'. While reading all sorts of literature about the national identity card, smart card, surveillance technologies etc I have often thought about the effect of these technologies on our lives and quite unlike the doomsdasque 'horrible' as Kirsch mentions, for me it appears, as if, like everything else some Indians are going to celebrate the coming of this new technology in their own way, while others are going to be paranoid about it , others still will not care about it at all or in a uniquely Indian fashion, will 'adjust' with it somehow. Otherwise how else could one explain that a product made mostly of strontium titanate, silicon, some circuits compressed between two strips of plastic could be regarded as token of 'respect', 'glamor' and 'dignity'. I wonder if Kafka had been around, how he would have thought of this rather 'nonchalant intrusion of the 'bizarre' into the everyday live of the Indians. The blog post below is about how 'poor people' living in 'slums' of Dharavi are buying a Rs200 ICICI smart biometric bank card, not only because they want to deposit money, but also because, as according to one Mr. Amitabh Saxena- 'But what about the customers who carried no balance? Their revealing response: the smart card, complete with their name, thumbprint, and photo, acted as a identify card, and when combined with the adored ICICI logo, one that commanded respect. India does not have a national ID card. The smart card, in effect, provided them with an identity. We received comments like, “I just like to show that I have an account, it doesn’t matter if I have a balance or not” and “If you are going at night and you clash the police then you can show them this also.” Of course!! However what I find interesting in an argument mentioned above are two underlying assumptions- first that, 'poor people' living in 'slums' DO NOT have any other form of VALID identification with which they can pacify the police and second, even IF their identification is VALID then our law abiding, gentle, humane, efficient, honorable police force will let them go, without any harassment. In this regard let's imagine a scenario which, I am sure, is going to be a typical case, in the beautiful world of 'smart cards' . It is long past midnight. The streets of Bombay are deserted. Ramu and his brother Lalu, who are from Narkatiya district of Bihar, but who have been living in Bombay for the past ten years are coming back home. They meet Pandu havaldar. Pandu's beat is Dharavi. Pandu is driving a motorbike. Pandu's colleague Shinde is also driving with him. Pandu is drunk. Shinde is not. They spot Ramu and Lalu who are walking home after a back biting 14 hour shift at a local factory. Shnide finds their tired walk 'suspicious'. Pandu senses this 'suspicion'. They accost Ramu and his brother. Pandu: Sir where are you going? (remember we are in 'new' world now- post smart card world, everything has 'changed') Ramu: Home. Shinde: What is your name Sir. Ramu: This is Lalu and I am his elder brother Ramu. Pandu: Can we see some identification papers please. Ramu: Identification papers. Nnnno...I I I don't have any at the moment but if you could walk with me to the basti which is just five kilometers from here then, I promise, I will give it you. Pandu: (Forgets for a moment that this is post smart card age) teri maa ki... Lalu: (frighteningly) Takes out his smart card and gives it to Shinde. Shinde: Inserts the card, in a portable reader. The reader tells Shinde, about the name, age, address, thumbprints, nearest to the kin etc, etc which also mentions Ramu's name. Shinde: (Smiles) That is alright Sir. Thank you. Sorry for the trouble. You have a shubha ratri. Ramu and Lalu: No worries!!! Ramu to Lalu: Thank GOD for this ICICI smart card, now even the police is helpless. With the new found, 'respect'. They laugh and walk back home. Please read below to learn more about the 'unintended benefits of ICICI smart cards', perhaps it gives us a clearer picture of the 'intended benefits' of MNIC. Regards Taha PS: Meanwhile a RNCOS reports suggests that the, 'The global shipment of smart card surpassed an estimated 5 Billion units in 2008 and this figure is projected to surge at CAGR of nearly 11% through 2012, according to "Smart Card Market Forecast to 2012”, a recent market research report by RNCOS.' ( http://www.emailwire.com/release/20565-RNCOS-Releases-a-New-Report-Smart-Card-Market-Forecast-to-2012.html ) ________________________________________________________________________ http://centerforfinancialinclusionblog.wordpress.com/2009/03/31/some-unintended-benefits-of-improving-financial-inclusion/ Some Unintended Benefits of Improving Financial Inclusion March 31, 2009 in Center for Financial Inclusion | Tags: Financial Inclusion > Posted by Amitabh Saxena The Oscar-winning movie Slumdog Millionaire is a fictional account of one teenager’s tough life in the slums of Mumbai to eventually winning the jackpot of a TV game show. But would young Jamal spend all those rupees or open a savings account to keep them safe? Through ACCION’s support of its microfinance partner Swadhaar FinAccess on Alternative Channels, I have had the opportunity a few times to walk around some of Mumbai’s slums – Kurla, Malad, and Dharavi (Asia’s largest) – and observe first-hand conditions there and poor people’s savings patterns. As an NGO, Swadhaar FinAccess is not regulated to offer savings accounts but wanted to offer the “service” to its poor clientele. So in January 2008 it struck a banking-correspondent agreement with ICICI, India’s largest private bank, where it would set up, staff, and manage small “kiosks” (see picture at right) in the poorer neighborhoods of Mumbai. Through these kiosks, clients can open ICICI savings accounts and make basic transactions, such as balance inquiries, deposits, and withdrawals. While these special savings accounts designed by ICICI have fewer options than regular savings accounts, apart from a 200 rupee ($4 USD) smart-card purchase to open the account, they charge nothing for transactions and come with few restrictions (e.g., no minimum balance, less documentation to open an account). In return, Swadhaar receives a commission from ICICI for the number of new accounts opened, total average balance, and transaction volume. When I started analyzing the actual performance behavior of the accounts last summer, Swadhaar FinAccess was operating four kiosks through which the client growth had been rather respectable at nearly 3,000 customers. What surprised me, though, was that we found anywhere from 75% to 93% of the accounts were not carrying any balance, and roughly 63% of customers had never made a single transaction. When asked, ICICI said those figures were around the average for the 120,000 savings customers acquired through its banking correspondent network of 40 NGOs. That got us thinking: why would so many poor people spend a hard-earned 200 rupees for the smart card to open the account, only to rarely or never use it? Why, indeed. Through focus groups of Swadhaar FinAccess savings customers, we uncovered a number of reasons for this behavior. Among those who carried a balance, their decisions to open an account stemmed from their impression of the ICICI brand, and its association with “glamour” and the “middle-class.” For this group, the ICICI name also provided a sense of security – one of the most important features in promoting savings – specifically using the metaphor of the bank being a father-figure that “would help if his children [the customers] ever got in trouble.” But what about the customers who carried no balance? Their revealing response: the smart card, complete with their name, thumbprint, and photo, acted as a identify card, and when combined with the adored ICICI logo, one that commanded respect. India does not have a national ID card. The smart card, in effect, provided them with an identity. We received comments like, “I just like to show that I have an account, it doesn’t matter if I have a balance or not” and “If you are going at night and you clash the police then you can show them this also.” These comments reveal that a sense of dignity and self-respect were the unintended benefit of the bank cards, and therefore, well worth the 200 rupees for many clients. This finding underlines the importance of treating clients ethically and helping them understand their rights and responsibilities with financial institutions, an idea currently being promoted through the Center’s Campaign for Client Protection. Swadhaar FinAccess is interested in the role of consumer protection in its operations and is working with the Center to learn more about the 6 principles of client protection and how to enhance their role in current operations. Using these findings, Swadhaar FinAccess, with ACCION’s support, is undertaking several marketing activities to increase overall usage of the savings account, as well as implementing client education programs courtesy of the Dell Foundation. Stay tuned in the coming weeks when I will write more broadly about product usage in alternative channels (banking agents, mobile banking, debit cards) and how this affects both the social and financial bottom-line of MFIs. Amitabh Saxena is the Director of Alternative Channels at ACCION International. From rakesh.rnbdj at gmail.com Sun Apr 26 07:04:23 2009 From: rakesh.rnbdj at gmail.com (Rakesh Iyer) Date: Sun, 26 Apr 2009 07:04:23 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] On Kafka and 'unintended benefits' of smart cards. In-Reply-To: <65be9bf40904251649x3600ee05r2af0f86f6e3dedaa@mail.gmail.com> References: <65be9bf40904251649x3600ee05r2af0f86f6e3dedaa@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: Dear all Having heard ourselves in many cases regarding the functioning of the Indian police in various cases, and having had the personal experience in one simple case with them myself, I believe that the Indian police will still go on arresting people irrespective of their cards being there or not. What I can't understand are the following: 1) The government is talking about MNIC or an identity card. What does an Indian identity mean? Can somebody define that at least for discussion here in this forum? 2) The article probably does not understand the major issues of slums. These include power being stolen (though major power theft is thanks to politicians, their kith/kin/acquaintances/friends/etc. and the industries), sanitation and even livelihood issues. Most importantly, the issue is of life with dignity, which is missing. 3) The government has not in the least (neither the UPA or the NDA or the Third Front or the Fourth Front nor Others), have talked about the major problems confronting people (except through manifestos, which we know how important are). There are issues of livelihood (roti, kapda and makaan; all that is there are populist schems : free power (which can only be used by middle and rich farmers, and especially the rich must be made to pay), no agricultural tax (most of the rich farmers should be taxed), and sometimes these BPL schemes (when what is required is a proper PDS system coupled with employment schemes like NREGS in the village, or even in urban areas, especially for slum people). Equally, neither of the fronts has talked about police reforms (those which can improve the functioning of the police), the electoral reforms (as suggested by the EC itself, regarding improvement of the electoral system), the judicial reforms (to ensure the judiciary is also accountable to the public like the legislature and the executive are), as well as governance reforms (including the Sarkaria Commission report). There is no understanding as to how any of the fronts wishes to tackle the global economic crisis, at least its' effects in India. The BJP criticizes the UPA for the fiscal deficit, and then says it will spend heavily from the budget for India's growth. What is this crap? And both are competing on the rates at which food will be provided to the poor. (Never mind that delivery systems are also important and food quality must be good as well). And as for health and education, the major fronts have nothing to say except allocating money. What is most surprising is that, we all know corruption is a major problem in the schemes, and yet just allocating money is considered enough for the government at the centre. This is crap. The central govt. has an added responsibility to ensure that the money they allocate is actually well spent. The govt does have the CAG and some NGO's undertaking ground-level work to look at this, but yet there is pilferage of money (some on small scale, some on large). Sometimes, projects are not undertaken to increase their value and then given to contractors. And yet, all our parties can think of is who should be the PM? Does it matter who is the PM, when the govt. (be it of any party) is going to be a coalition arrangement, whose core agenda would be 'apni apni dafli, apna apna raag', and the only thing they cling on to is power, otherwise there are no values, no customs, and everything is accepted as they say 'in love, war and elections (and power), everything is fair'. 4) What about chances of corruption in the MNIC? And remember, if corruption here happens, the so-called Pakistani terrorists (as our state claims) will have a field day attacking India's spots without any problems of being branded as Pakistani as well. Then? Hence, we need to have debates on questions like some of these. And as for the PM debate, I am sure the Indian public will give a fitting reply to all those who wish to become PM, so that none among them becomes the PM. Regards Rakesh From kmvenuannur at gmail.com Sun Apr 26 10:48:57 2009 From: kmvenuannur at gmail.com (Venugopalan K M) Date: Sun, 26 Apr 2009 10:48:57 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Fwd: WHAT SHOULD THE LGBT MOVEMENT FIGHT FOR? (Sherry Wolf) In-Reply-To: <1f9180970904252217t5e677214s65d32fb2376c0ac1@mail.gmail.com> References: <1f9180970904252217t5e677214s65d32fb2376c0ac1@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <1f9180970904252218s7b1474a0wa35fb510e2098118@mail.gmail.com> "..Without acknowledging the evidence to the contrary--and there is quite a bit--they assumed that given the mainstream nature of marriage, marriage activists must not care about racism, economic injustice or taking on the systemic causes of LGBT oppression. They are both theoretically and factually mistaken. First, gay marriage is a reform. Like all reforms under capitalism, it leaves the structure of the system intact while alleviating a grievance--in this case, the denial of both material benefits and the desire to have LGBT relationships acknowledged as equal to those of heterosexuals. Like the demand for unionization, under which the terms of workers' exploitation are renegotiated--with workers gaining higher wages and benefits, but not eliminating the power of bosses--equal marriage would end some discrimination without eliminating oppression altogether. Second, to challenge the demand for same-sex marriage for not delivering sexual liberation is a bit like disparaging the civil rights sit-ins to desegregate lunch counters in the early 1960s for not eliminating racism. It sets up a false expectation for a reformist demand, and then assails it for not delivering revolutionary transformation. At the Left Forum meeting, one married gay couple with HIV/AIDS hammered home what's really at stake in this struggle. Vinny Allegrini and Mark de Solla have been living with HIV/AIDS for 20 years, and were married 15 years ago in Canada. In many concrete and emotionally compelling ways, their daily struggle to keep alive and take care of each other--and have medical and state authorities respect their health care wishes--is codified by their marriage license, which they must carry with them everywhere to prove that they are not legal strangers, as they lead lives that are shaped by health care crises. Socialists and other progressives must engage with the genuine struggle to try and shape a course that is independent of the Democratic Party establishment and inclusive of broader civil rights for all LGBT people." Analysis: Sherry Wolf WHAT SHOULD THE LGBT MOVEMENT FIGHT FOR? Different political approaches are emerging inside the LGBT struggle over what our aims should be--and how we should fight to achieve them. http://socialistworker.org/2009/04/21/lgbt-movement -- http://venukm.blogspot.com/ From kmvenuannur at gmail.com Sun Apr 26 10:53:19 2009 From: kmvenuannur at gmail.com (Venugopalan K M) Date: Sun, 26 Apr 2009 10:53:19 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Fwd: Dehumanising the Muslim Woman By A. Faizur Rahman (fwded by Yogi Sikand) In-Reply-To: <1f9180970904252158k7fef8c5fs330db048585065c2@mail.gmail.com> References: <1f9180970904252158k7fef8c5fs330db048585065c2@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <1f9180970904252223x64772b82o8d0fb2d45d0d0c1@mail.gmail.com> ---------- Forwarded message ---------- From: yogi sikand To: saldwr at yahoogroups.com Date: Tue, 21 Apr 2009 23:38:09 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Faizur Rahman: Dehumanising the Muslim woman Dehumanising the Muslim woman By A. Faizur Rahman  The passage of a law in Afghanistan asking Muslim women to unconditionally submit to the sexual whims of their husbands once in four days is a shocking piece of legislation that seeks to dehumanise women reducing them to mere chattels devoid of human rights. Although this law applies only to the Shia minority, it is outrageous that the Afghan mullahs thought it Islamic to legislate on a private relationship which is confined to the four walls of a bedroom. To add insult to injury the 300 women who were bold enough to protest against this inhuman law were pelted with stones and called “dogs” and “slaves of the Christians.” One fails to understand why motives should be attributed to a democratic protest. How can the moderate Muslims who have always been part of the larger Muslim society suddenly become agents of the West “which is out to destroy Islam?” The truth is that it is the bigoted Talibanised Muslims who are destroying Islam through their misinterpretations and intolerance for progressive ideas. It is they who need to be treated for their fossilized mind-set.  It is strange the puppet regime of Hamid Karzai, which was installed by the US and its allies to replace the Taliban, is doing exactly what the Taliban would have done if they were in power. If this was what was in store for Afghanistan why were the Taliban replaced at all? In fact, the entire region seems to be relapsing into medievalism with Pakistan signing a deal with the terrorists of the Swat valley to implement their version of the shariah which is symbolized by the brutal and arbitrary public flogging of an young girl without establishing her guilt in a proper court of law, to say nothing about the recent refusal of a Saudi judge to annul the marriage of an eight year old child to a forty seven year old man.  A deeper probe into the psyche of most of the narrow-minded radicalized jurists would reveal that their interpretations are based on traditional tafsirs (commentaries) written by patriarchal males representing only the experiences of men with either the total exclusion of experiences of women, or their interpretation through the coloured vision of men. This has resulted in women being brought under the control of men to be exploited at will.  For instance, in interesting incident concerning the shariah, The New York Times on March 22, 2007 reported that a German Judge turned down citing the Quran, a Muslim wife's request for a fast-track divorce on the ground that her husband beat her from the beginning of their marriage. The Judge justified her ruling by saying that the couple came from a Moroccan cultural milieu in which it is common for husbands to beat their wives because the Quran sanctions such physical abuse.  The Judge was obviously quoting one of the most mistranslated verses of the Quran (4:34) which supposedly allows wife beating. The mistranslated word is wazribuhunna which is derived from the root zaraba. Major commentators of the Quran including Ibn Kasir, Pickthall, and Maulana Maududi, the founder of Jamaat-e-Islami, have rendered this word as "beat them" ignoring the fact that the word zaraba has various other shades of meaning. Out of the 50 times it occurs in the Quran, 31 times it has been used in the meaning of "to explain by giving an example." Only 10 times it has used to mean "to strike" but mostly in the context of Moses "striking the rock" or the sea, and angels "striking the faces" of the sinners. The verse 4:34 actually talks about the various means at the disposal of a husband to bring about a reconciliation with his wife and obviously beating the wife cannot be an option to sort out differences. Thus, the translation "beat them" is clearly not justified in this context. But unfortunately even today most Muslim societies consider it their Islamic right to beat their wives for disobedience. In other words, the passage of the controversial Afghan law would allow husbands to beat their wives if they refuse sex or step out of the house without their permission. For Islam to be exploited in this manner is indeed shocking given the fact that the Prophet was one of the greatest promoters of women’s rights.  The same holds true for the punishment of stoning to death for adultery. The primary source of Islamic law, the Quran, does not prescribe stoning as a punishment for any crime much less adultery. It only authorizes the Muslim state to flog those guilty of adultery or fornication but only after the case has been proved by four eye witnesses which is a near impossibility. Even here the flogging is not meant to hurt the person but only to humiliate him. A report in Kitabul Hudud of Bukhari says that when a man was brought before the Prophet for habitual drinking he was asked to be flogged. And it was done with a lash made out of twisted clothing which could not have hurt him. Interestingly, when someone in the group cursed the drunken man saying “May Allah disgrace you” he was chided by the Prophet. Compare this to the brutality of what is being done in the name of Islam today. It is time the ulema worldwide collaborated on a liberal interpretation of Islam in the modern context. (Source: The Hindustan Times, April 18, 2009)  The author is student of comparative study of religions. He may be reached at References: <1f9180970904252153i4ed38babr360ef0d329f2a591@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <1f9180970904252225w734b53ebwa910c5eb386d9e4d@mail.gmail.com> ---------- Forwarded message ---------- From: Venugopalan K M Date: Sun, Apr 26, 2009 at 10:23 AM Subject: Muslims and Media Images—News versus Views (a Book Review by Yoginder Sikand) To:                                            Book Review Name of the Book: Muslims and Media Images—News versus Views Edited by: Ather Farouqui Publisher: Oxford University Press, New Delhi Year:  2009 Pages: 340  ISBN: 019569495-3 Price: Rs. 695 Reviewed by: Yoginder Sikand That Muslims and Islam suffer from a bad press is a widely accepted fact. But the reasons advanced for this are varied, and often conflicting. For many people, including in the non-Muslim media, Islam and its adherents stand as fundamentally opposed to what they consider as their cherished values. This owes not simply to prejudice and misunderstandings about Islam, as many Muslims would argue. The historical and present conditions of Muslim societies world-wide, particularly continuing religious intolerance and gross violations of human rights in the name of Islam, have played no small role in sustaining sternly negative attitudes towards Islam and Muslims. These attitudes are reflected in, and further reinforced by, large sections of the non-Muslim media. On the other hand, many Muslims believe that much of the non-Muslim media is impelled by what they regard as a ‘conspiracy’ against Islam and Muslims. The undeniable fact that both in India and elsewhere, particularly in the West, much of the press is blatantly Islamophobic lends some weight to their argument. The unenviable media image of Islam and those who claim to follow it is thus a result of a combination of a variety of factors. It cannot be pinned down to a single cause, contrary to what many Muslims and their detractors would simplistically argue. There is a bit of truth in the arguments of both, but these explanations are partial and do not tell the whole story. This book attempts to explore the projection of Muslims and Islam in the media while also seeking to account for the ways in which these images are created and sustained. Many of the contributors to this book are non-Muslim journalists and academics, some of them leading names in their respective fields. They provide valuable clues as to how key non-Muslim media professionals look at Muslim-related issues. Several other contributors to the volume are of Muslim background and possess an intimate knowledge of the Indian Muslim press. They offer readers a critical insider’s perspective that is often lacking in discussions about Islam, Muslims and the media. ‘Muslims and Media Images: Where Things Go Wrong’ is the title of the opening essay by Vinod Mehta, editor-in-chief of the New Delhi-based Outlook magazine. He claims, somewhat tendentiously, that the principal cause for the negative image of Muslims in the non-Muslim Indian media is what he considers to be the Muslims’ own lack of understanding of the nature of the media. In turn, he says, this is related to what he claims is the absence of any ‘forward movement in general amongst Muslims […] especially in north India, towards social transformation and modernization.’ (p.26). Mehta appears to argue that the bad press that Muslims enjoy is largely of their own making—a partial and limited claim that can easily be challenged. It is true that much of the blame for the slow pace of what Mehta calls ‘modernization’ among large sections of the north Indian Muslims rests on their shoulders—particularly of those who claim to be their leaders. However, Mehta misses out another undeniable fact—that the opportunities for such ‘modernization’ for many Indian Muslims are severely limited, or even denied, by pervasive discrimination at the hands of organs of the state and by the mounting challenge of Hindutva fascist groups who, as many have convincingly argued, seek to consign the Muslims of India to the status of the new ‘untouchables’. Mehta’s advocacy of ‘modernization’ as the key to improving the Muslim media image is well-taken, although, lamentably, he does not explain what he exactly means by the term. ‘Modernization’ is a value-loaded concept, and can mean different things to different people. The dominant form of ‘modernity’ is, of course, that represented by the Western capitalist model, based on individualism, consumerism—indeed hedonism—and the total privatization, if not outright denial, of religion. While many of those who identify themselves as Muslims might buy into this logic, numerous others would stoutly refuse to do so, based on their own understanding of Islam that forcefully challenges the ‘moneytheism’ of capitalism—a useful and provocative term coined by the noted Malaysian public intellectual Chandra Muzaffar. The point, thus, is not, as Mehta seems to suggest, an alleged refusal on the part of most Muslims to ‘modernize’. Rather, it is a question of what sort of ‘modernization’ Mehta advocates—and this is something that he conveniently leaves undefined. It is, of course, undeniable that much is wrong with Muslim society, including in the ways in which many Muslims understand their religion (particularly in relation to women and people of other faiths). All this is in urgent need of reform, as many Muslims will themselves admit. But blindly following the Western liberal model is no solution at all—contrary to what ardent advocates of Western-style liberalism would insist. It is something that Muslims who take their faith seriously would refuse to consider. Fierce competition and drive for profit maximization are defining features of the media, Mehta points out, and so, he frankly admits, it is naive to expect the Indian media to be extra-sympathetic to Muslims. The media, he says, is a business, and although this does not mean that it should be exclusively devoted to money making, it is not feasible for it to be idealistic either. Most Indian media houses, he notes, are run by businessmen and business houses. Their primary interest is in making profits, and they ‘have little understanding of what the media’s role vis-à-vis the Muslim community should be.’ (p.26). Gone, it might then appear, is the illusion of the media as a crusader for truth and justice. Mehta raises some crucial questions about the ways in which Muslims are generally presented by the so-called ‘national’ or ‘mainstream’ media. Has the Indian media portrayed Indian Muslims with sensitivity and objectivity, particularly given the many problems that they face? Or, has it given ‘undue prominence to what Mehta terms the ‘lunatic fringe’, and suppressed and ignored ‘liberal’ or ‘moderate’ voices’? Has it projected obscurantist mullahs as the spokesmen and representatives of the community and thereby given all the Muslims of India a bad press, depicting them all as ‘rabid fundamentalists’? These are questions central to the issue of media projections of Muslims. Mehta’s answers to them will, clearly, not satisfy many Muslims as well as sensitive others. ‘Journalists’, he writes—and this is could well be construed as a specious excuse for both prejudice and ineptitude—‘are fundamentally extremely lazy people. The assumption that we are very industrious and will do a lot of groundwork for stories is an erroneous one.’ So, he asks, ‘If a sound-byte is readily available from the Imam of the Jama Masjid, for example, why should a TV reporter go looking for the not-so-easily-available moderate voice, which anyway makes for dull copy?’. Needless to say, Mehta’s excuse does not impress. Is it simply some sort of congenital laziness—as Mehta appears to argue—that impels the media to highlight, and push from obscurity into notoriety, sundry obscurantist mullahs? Or is the reason, as one suspects, definitely less benign and forgivable—a refusal to recognize any voice other than the most reactionary as ‘authentically Muslim’ simply because that would defy the deeply-rooted stereotypical image of Muslims that a large section of the non-Muslim media shares and has consistently played a key role in promoting and reinforcing? Mehta admits that another reason why the media tends to project rabidly communal and obscurantist figures—both among the Hindus as well as the Muslims—is simply because, as he puts it, they are more ‘saleable’. He dismisses the complaint of ‘liberal’ Muslims that their voices are never highlighted in the media. He appears to circumvent the issue by raising the apparent problem he says that the media faces of locating, identifying and accessing ‘liberal’ Muslims. He claims that ‘there are too few liberal Muslims who can be called upon to speak’ (p.30). Only a few ‘usual suspects’ exist, or so he claims, and among them are many who simply use the Muslim cause for self-promotion and media publicity. Just as Mehta leaves the notion of the ‘modernized’ Muslim (referred to earlier) undefined, so too with the term ‘liberal Muslim’. Is a ‘liberal’ Muslim one who has abandoned Islam altogether, or chooses to conceal his faith in order to ‘integrate’ into what is arbitrarily defined as the Indian ‘mainstream’? Does a Muslim become ‘liberal’ only when he ceases to pray five times a day or regards the Islamic prohibition on consuming alcohol an embarrassing rule that has no relevance in today’s ‘modern’ age?  Is a liberal Muslim one who thinks that sporting a beard or protesting against American imperialism and Zionist oppression is rank obscurantism, and that demanding the legitimate rights of Muslims is akin to ‘fundamentalism’ or ‘communalism’? Sadly, that is precisely how the notion of a ‘liberal Muslim’ is understood by many people. Needless to say, Muslims of this sort enjoy little support within the community and can in no way be said to represent it. And so their voices cannot count for much in the media. But if by a ‘liberal’ Muslim Mehta means someone who, while deeply rooted to and connected to his or her faith, is passionate about universal human rights, equality, democracy and secularism, he should find no difficulty at all in locating any number of such specimens. If there is a will, as the tired cliché goes, there is most definitely a way.  Most of my friends, for instance, are Muslims and they would almost all fall into the category of ‘liberal Muslims’ if the term is understood in precisely this liberal way. That said, Mehta’s point that improving the image of Muslims in the media is linked to the question of accelerating the process of social change within the community is well-taken.  He also rightly notes that it is for ‘progressive’ Muslims to demand to be heard, and for that they would need to create organizations of their own and network with the media. As of now, however, their voices are scattered and they have little or no organic links with the Muslim masses. This is in contrast to ultra-conservative groups among the ulema and their well-funded, media-savvy organizations, which make them much more easily accessible to the media. In this regard Mehta justifiably critiques the role of north Indian Muslim religious and political elites, who claim to speak for all the Muslims of India but really do not speak for more than themselves, raking up divisive and controversial issues to win the loyal following of the Muslim masses. The media, he advises, should desist from giving undue attention to such figures. Instead, it should seek out other voices, particularly among the younger generation of Muslims who probably relate to the contemporary Indian context in a more meaningful way. Mehta stoutly denies the charge that the English-language media is biased against Muslims (although later in the essay he seems to contradict himself when he admits that ‘there is no doubt that […] images of Muslims [are] generally projected in a distorted form’ (p.33)]. His denial of bias can easily be contested, of course. Surely, it is bias, as much as anything else, that accounts for the fact that Muslims are invariably discussed in the media (including the English press, which Mehta seeks to exonerate) only in the context of some negative event, whether real or imaginary. Surely, it is bias, among other factors, which causes the immense social, economic, educational and cultural problems and concerns that most Indian Muslims face to be almost completely elided in the media, Mehta’s English press included. How can the existence of anti-Muslim bias be denied when numerous fiercely Islamophobic writers have regular access to several English  papers? Surely Mehta cannot claim to be unaware of numerous editors and regular columnists of English papers in India who make no bones about their pro-Hindutva and fiercely anti-Muslim proclivities?                                                           * As befits his status as a known advocate of Hindutva, Chandan Mitra, editor of the New Delhi-based The Pioneer, makes numerous dubious claims in his rather shoddy paper in this volume. At the outset, he observes that ‘the reality is that the image of Indian Muslims projected by the Indian media varies vastly’, thus seeming to acknowledge the fact that at least some sections of the media do not give Muslims a fair deal. However, instead of critiquing those sections of the media that are guilty of this, he lays down, ‘The expectations among Muslims [regarding the media] are unfair in the given circumstances’. He provides no explanation at all to back his judgment. Indeed, he even argues that Muslims are themselves mainly to blame for their bad media image, claiming that the Urdu press and ‘has done more damage to the Muslim image in India than any other language media’. Given his known ideological proclivities, it is hardly surprising that  Mitra makes no mention at all of the enormously influential and rabidly anti-Muslim Hindutva-oriented press—including his own The Pioneer—that continues to play a major role in magnifying and further sustaining anti-Muslim prejudices and Islamophobia. Mitra is of the view that the Urdu media is ‘negative and least interested in propagating and encouraging positive Muslim images in a plural society such as India’. He also contends that the Urdu press is simply ‘not interested in playing the role of making Muslims a part of [ …] social change and modernization’. Instead, all it does, so he claims, is to provoke Muslim sentiments and bolster a narrow, communal-minded leadership. There is, undeniably, some substance in what Mitra claims, although the generalizations that he makes are perhaps excessively broad. Most crucially, he ignores the fact that the persistent insularity of the Urdu press, and what might be called its obsession with issues of religious identity—narrowly defined—is itself a reflection of the Indian Muslim predicament that stems from the Muslims being a marginalized and increasingly threatened minority. Although Mitra would probably not care to acknowledge this, the Muslim ‘insularity’, as reflected in the Urdu press, and which he so passionately laments, has much to do with deeply-entrenched anti-Muslim prejudices and the mounting attacks on the community—and organized anti-Muslim pogroms are just one of the many forms that they take—by agencies of the state and the Hindutva lobby. Muslim ‘insularity’ is not entirely of the Muslims’ own making, contrary to what Mitra might like us to  believe. All that Mitra has to say is not without merit, though. He convincingly argues that until the state arranges for Urdu to be included in the curriculum of general schools, in most places Muslim parents who want their children to learn the language will have no alternative but to enroll them in madrasas. Because Urdu has now, for all practical purposes, been reduced to the language of the madrasas, Urdu papers are today geared to a readership that is mainly madrasa-educated. This is reflected in their contents and their narrow focus on religion and community identity. No one familiar with the madrasas can deny that there is some merit in Mitra’s claims. But where he errs is in making wild generalizations about the madrasas, branding them as a whole as ‘a parallel system dangerous not only for the nation but even more for Muslims themselves.’ (p.94). He claims, without adducing any convincing evidence whatsoever, that 50 million Indian Muslim students study in full-time madrasas that number half a million throughout the country. Besides these, he says, are many other children who study in part-time madrasas. Needless to say, these are wildly exaggeratedly figures, and indicate a profound ignorance of Muslim social realities at the same time as they powerfully resonate with and reflect the relentless anti-madrasa propaganda of the Hindutva lobby. Like Mehta before him, Mitra piously claims that the English media has no conscious anti-Muslim bias—an assertion that can easily be contested, especially in the case of some papers like the one Mitra edits. He candidly admits that the English media is elitist, and professionals employed in this sector often have few or no Muslim contacts. Since the vast majority of the Indian Muslims are poor and do not know English or read English papers, he points out that there is a tendency in the English press to ignore Muslim issues. This argument can, of course, be easily challenged and rebutted. Far from hardly mentioning issues related to Muslims, as Mitra claims, the Indian media—including the English press—can be said to at times give inordinate coverage to invariably negative sensational stories and events involving Muslims—riots, wars, mistreatment of women, bizarre fatwas issued by obscurantist mullahs and so on. Hardly ever does one hear about anything positive about Muslims in the media. Are we to imagine, then, that Muslims are congenitally unable to produce or do anything positive that might be considered newsworthy? Of course, no one can or should deny the frightening reality of fundamentalist reaction, obscurantist ‘religiosity’ and deep-rooted patriarchy associated with some Muslims, but surely it can be no one’s case that these are a Muslim monopoly. Given this, one is tempted to believe that the obsessive delight that the media takes in bombarding us with  Muslim-related horror stories does indeed reflect a deep-rooted anti-Muslim bias. Consequently, one cannot but profoundly disagree with Mitra’s pious proclamation that ‘It is time for common Muslims to come out of the paranoid feeling that the media has been consciously seeking to victimize or portray them as villains in Indian society’ (p.97). At the same time, Mitra is right in suggesting that the Muslim intelligentsia should not shut themselves from engaging with the English media. Instead, he says, they should seek to enhance their space within it. He rightly laments the fact that ‘issues that are not really germane to the genuine problems of the Muslim community get undue attention from the media as well as from Muslim writers’ (p.98), and that these only further intensify negative stereotypes. Likewise, his plea to the media to shift its focus in reporting on Muslim matters by focusing more on issues that will bring about fundamental changes in Muslim social, economic and educational conditions and empowerment is also unexceptionable.                                                           * In his article, the veteran journalist Kuldip Nayyar reflects on his personal experiences of working with a Muslim paper and what it meant to be a Hindu employed in such an establishment. He started his journalistic career, he writes, in October 1947 with Anjam, then a popular Delhi-based Urdu paper owned by a Muslim. This was shortly after the Partition of India, a traumatic time for many north Indian Muslims who chose not to migrate to Pakistan and now found themselves as a hapless and beleaguered minority in India. The Muslims of Old Delhi, where the offices of Anjam were located, lived in constant fear, but, Nayyar remarks, the Muslim-owned Urdu press provided them little succor. Many owners of such papers had once been ardent advocates of the Partition and the creation of a separate Muslim state of Pakistan. However, since they decided to remain in India, they suddenly did what Nayyar terms as a ‘volte-face overnight’, without explaining why  they had so passionately supported the Pakistan demand all along. They had little or no guidance to offer the Indian Muslims, who were faced with immense Hindu hostility. The Muslims felt that they were at the mercy of the Hindus, and this was even reflected, Nayyar writes, in the attitude of his Muslim colleagues in the Anjam. ‘They treated me’, he says, ‘as if I were a privileged citizen and they a second-class lot. Their dependence on the generosity of the majority community was tragic; they behaved like somebody with a hat perpetually in hand’ (p.40). The pathetic predicament which the post-Partition north Indian Muslims found themselves faced with is still reflected in many ways in the Urdu press, Nayyar remarks. The Urdu press today, like its counterpart in the immediate post-Partition period, has, he comments, not provided Muslims the direction and leadership that they require for living as a marginalized minority in a religiously diverse society. It gives exaggerated importance to religious issues, narrowly defined, thus ensnaring Muslims in ‘a vicious circle’. It has also, as Nayyar puts it, ‘somewhat distanced the Muslims from the Indian mainstream’ and made them even more ‘inward looking’. At the same time, Nayyar does not hesitate to critique what he terms as the ‘national press’ for not projecting Muslim-related issues in a fair and balanced manner. This media, he indicates, generally ‘oversimplifies’ Muslim problems and concerns and displays a marked and erroneous tendency to interpret their issues in religious terms while ignoring their numerous social and economic issues. Nayyar is right, of course, although he does not mention that the same complaint can be leveled against those who claim to be the leaders and representatives of the Muslims, including, and particularly, the madrasa-trained ulema. Nayyar critiques the media’s habit of tarring all Muslims with the same brush, of making wild and completely unwarranted generalizations about Muslims and projecting them as inherently violent, fanatic, obscurantist and so on. Thus, although Muslims suffer immensely more than Hindus in what are euphemistically termed as ‘communal riots’, the media generally depicts Muslims as culprits even if this is not true at all.  While this is the case with some sections of the English media, anti-Muslim biases are, Nayyar notes, even more widespread in the vernacular press, large sections of which are now unabashed supporters of the Hindutva ideology and agenda. A major cause of such prejudice is wrong information, or the lack of any information at all, regarding Islam among most Hindus—and the same is true about Muslims with regard to knowledge of Hinduism.  Nayyar bemoans the fact that the Indian media has played no worthwhile role at all in promoting inter-religious dialogue, although this is something that India cannot survive without. While Muslim-owned Urdu papers are awash with articles—indeed, whole pages—about Islam, they provide Muslim readers with no understanding at all about the religion of the other peoples in whose midst they live. Likewise, while the Hindi press routinely publishes stories about Hinduism, it offers its readers nothing at all about Islam. Inevitably, then, in significant sections of both the Urdu and Hindi media, Hinduism and Islam are projected as polar opposites that allegedly have nothing at all in common, and that, therefore, are supposedly viscerally opposed to each  other.                                                           * Of all the papers included in this volume Siddharth Vardarajan’s is the most clearly argued and convincing. He contends that the Indian print media mirrors the biases of ‘mainstream’ political parties and generally follows their imperatives. He explains that the so-called representatives of the Muslims affiliated to these parties, whose major task is to garner the Muslim vote for their political patrons, are mostly ‘backward in their approach to the socio-economic issues’ of the country in general, and of the Muslims, in particular. This indelibly influences media discourses about Muslims. In north India, at least, where the bulk of the Indian Muslims is concentrated, these self-styled Muslim political ‘representatives’, drawn principally from the erstwhile aristocratic elite and conservative madrasa-trained ulema, share a ‘backward-looking mentality’, which is generally projected by the media to apply to all Muslims as such. Negative  portrayals of Muslims in the media have also been compounded, Vardarajan writes, by the infiltration of pro-Hindutva elements in large sections of the media, including RSS activists who are ‘trained in sensational propaganda-mongering’ (p.103) that is geared specifically to whipping up anti-Muslim hatred. Several contributors to this volume insist that the world of the English media that they inhabit is free from any anti-Muslim bias, for which they congratulate themselves while expressing dismay at the vernacular press for fanning anti-Muslim prejudices. Vardarajan does not buy this duplicitous argument. Instead, he frankly confesses the existence of anti-Muslim prejudices in significant sections of the English-media. He notes, for instance, media biases in reporting about ‘communal riots’, which, in his words, reflect an ‘extremely distorted picture’ (p.105) of this sort of violence as allegedly being between two equals and as generally the result of Muslim provocation. In most cases of such violence, this is simply not true at all. In this regard Vardarajan asks, why, ‘despite overwhelming evidence that Muslims are the main victims of communal violence’, does the ‘standard riot narrative as propounded by the bulk of the media continue to revolve around the alleged aggressiveness of the Muslims?’. He offers some explanations for this distorted media reporting. Firstly, what he calls the media’s ‘over-reliance’ on police sources for news and information about communal violence. That anti-Muslim prejudices are deeply-rooted in the police forces, which have only a bare Muslim presence, is well-known, and this is often reflected in their version of incidents of communal violence. The element of police bias is further exacerbated  because many such ‘riots’ are not riots at all but actually indiscriminate killings of Muslims by the police themselves. In the majority of ‘riots’, most of the dead are Muslims slain at the hands of the police, and so, Vardarajan writes,  ‘the police narrative often tends to be aimed at sanitizing the role of the police and painting a portrait of Muslims as aggressors in order to justify whatever the police does’ (p.106). A second reason, Vardarajan suggests, for biased reporting of ‘communal riots’ is the high financial and logistical cost of news gathering. Most papers cannot afford to have bureaus all over India or send reporters to far-flung areas where ‘communal riots’ might occur. They are often forced to rely on underpaid stringers in small towns who are generally locally very influential. Many of these characters use their status as journalists to get close to local bigwigs, which means that the integrity of the news-gathering process at the local level can easily get compromised. Often, the local bigwigs are the ones behind cases of ‘communal violence’, and local stringers and underpaid staffers do not find it easy to send the real story because of blandishments by the bigwigs or threats—even to their lives—from them. The third reason Vardarajan suggests for biased reporting of ‘communal violence’ in the English (and other) media has to do with anti-Muslim bias as well as lack of professionalism in the news-desks of papers. For instance, he notes that several newspapers received funds from the BJP during its rule at the Centre, and in this period ‘many English journalists and editors officially joined the party or flirted with it’. In this background, what Vardarajan terms as ‘the subtle show of disregard towards the plight of Muslims’ (p.110) among large sections of the English media is thus hardly surprising. Vardarajan critiques the dominant discourse on what are called ‘communal riots’, pointing out how this itself tends to be heavily biased against marginalized communities such as Muslims, who are often victims of pogroms organized by the Hindu Right and elements of the state. ‘The term “communal riots”’, he notes, ‘is an infelicitous term to describe what is essentially organized and targeted violence in which the law enforcement machinery is fully implicated, either through omission or commission’ in selective killings of minorities. ‘The very discourse and notion of the communal riot’, he explains, ‘is problematic because it posits one community fighting another’, which is very often not the case at all. Once a riot is presented in this manner, he comments, ‘media reports are invariably going to be biased in way or the other. Typically, the reports tend to be biased, giving the impression that Muslims are killing Hindus’  (p.108). Related to this is a pronounced tendency to project every case of Muslim mobilization and assertion, even in defence of their legitimate rights, as menacingly threatening, as ‘fundamentalist’ and even ‘terroristic’. Vardarajan cites a telling example about a group of Muslims in the town of Malegaon who went around the town distributing leaflets titled ‘Be Indian, Buy Indian’ and appealing to people to boycott goods made by foreign companies whose countries had aligned with the USA in waging a deadly war against Afghanistan. The leaflets were banned by the police, who fired on the group of Muslims, resulting in the tragic death of some of the demonstrators. When the news of the demonstration reached Bombay and Delhi, newspapers there reported it in very predictable terms—as a rally in support of Osama bin Laden—although it was nothing of the sort. Vardarajan clarifies that anti-Muslim prejudice in some sections of the English-media does not necessarily indicate a conscious and deliberate bias. It could also be attributed to the subtle influence of anti-Muslim sentiments in society at large, whose influence journalists, as members of their societies, may not remain immune from. He suggests that this could be reduced by encouraging diversity in the workplace and employing more Muslims in the media. However, he also notes that this might not greatly improve media representation of Muslims, for many Muslim journalists suffer from a self-imposed censorship, fearing to raise issues of denial and violation of Muslim rights for fear of being branded by others, including their editors, colleagues and readers, as being ‘communal’, ‘pro-Muslim’ and even ‘fundamentalist’ simply for doing so. Vardarajan laments the fact that the media is now run on market principles, lacking any progressive social agenda at all. It is, he notes, heavily biased in favour of the elites and loaded against the poor. The vast majority of the Indian Muslims are poor, and the elitist bias of the Indian media hits them badly. That, however, Vardarajan says, is an unfortunate fact that has to be accepted for the moment for lack of any immediate solution. In the meanwhile, he advises, it would not be proper to write-off the media as a whole as fiercely anti-Muslim. There are, he says, a number of Indian journalists who are committed to social justice, democracy and minority rights, and Muslims concerned about how the media treats them must seek these people out and provide them the support they need.                                                           * Mrinal Pande, editor of the Hindi daily Hindustan, echoes several of Vardarajan’s remarks in her paper. She laments that the Indian media often overlooks the truth in reporting about minorities, particularly Muslims, and abandons the professional norms that are supposed to guide it. This, she warns, constitutes a grave threat to democracy, liberty and equality. The problem is enormously magnified, she says, because of the tendency of large sections of the press to go along with political parties whose principal tool of mobilization is spewing anti-Muslim hatred. As Pande puts it, ‘The media […] often becomes a pawn in the aggressive sabre-rattling game of politicians. And when that happens, an exaggerated fear about national security makes it view events not objectively, as professionals and humane citizens, but as Indian nationals threatened by a colossal tide of Islamic belligerence’ (p.47). Pande locates the deep-rooted anti-Muslim biases in significant sections of the Indian media in the wider context of what she believes is the alarming growth of corruption and sycophancy in media and what she describes as a ‘near total erosion of professional objectivity and a humane sense of justice’ (p.57). Some intrepid journalists who have dared to challenge the powers-that-be and raise their voices against oppression have even had to pay for this with their lives, she notes. Given that Islamophobia is being consciously cultivated in influential circles in the West to justify Western hegemonic and imperialist designs, the excessive and growing reliance on Western news sources is another cause for mounting anti-Muslim prejudice in sections of the Indian media. It is thus no surprise, Pande remarks, that anti-Muslim Indian columnists such as Arun Shourie, Swapan Dasgupta and M.V. Kamath are often cited by the Western media. Islamophobia shapes media discourse on Muslims in a highly skewed manner, resulting in all issues related to Islam and Muslims being viewed through a ‘security’ lens or solely within the framework of religion and secularism. The problem is further compounded in the Indian vernacular press, says Pande, to which few, if any, progressive writers contribute, preferring to write for what are generally considered as the more ‘prestigious’ English papers. This vacuum has been filled by journalists who make no effort to conceal their passionate support for the Hindu Right. Numerous Hindi papers, for instance, she says, are now controlled by RSS sympathizers and activists, who use their papers to spew anti-Muslim venom and even wholly false propaganda against Muslims. Lamentably, little or no legal action has been taken by the state authorities against such papers. Ironically, Pande points out, Hindi communal papers as well as most Urdu papers both tend to ignore stories of positive achievements of Muslims, as well as their manifold economic, social and educational problems, while focusing on negative and sensational events and stories. Thus, both work in tandem to lending further weight to negative stereotypical images of Muslims as ‘backward’ and ‘illiterate’. Both tend to project conservative ulema as the authoritative spokesmen of the community, in the process reinforcing the misleading notion of Muslims as blind followers of obscurantist mullahs.                                                           * Several chapters of the book are devoted to the state of the now almost wholly Muslim-owned Urdu press in India. Robin Jeffrey remarks that owing principally to discriminatory policies of the state vis-à-vis Urdu and the loss of the economic linkages that the language once enjoyed, Urdu is now regarded as the language of the mainly madrasa-educated, north Indian Muslim poor. He notes how, ironically, the Government has systematically destroyed Urdu by removing it from the school system but, at the same time, seeks to appear to be generously patronizing the language in order to gain Muslim votes. One way in which it does so is by providing advertisements to Urdu papers in a bid to buy their loyalty. Jeffrey dwells in detail on this sinister nexus between the state and sections of the Urdu press. While Government sources claim that both the number of Urdu papers and their circulation figures are steadily increasing, facts speak otherwise, Jeffrey claims.  Several editors of Urdu (and other) papers deliberately hike their circulation figures in order to procure more advertisement revenue from the Government; and there might also be evidence of smaller papers hiking up circulation figures in order to get higher quotas of newsprint than they actually need and then selling the excess in the black market. Jeffrey indicates some other disturbing features of the Indian Urdu press. Because most Urdu readers are poor and lack purchasing power, Urdu papers get few, if any, commercial advertisements. This inevitably impacts on their quality. Further, many Urdu papers suffer from outdated equipment, unprofessionalism, low staff salaries, poor working conditions and unscrupulous owners. Most Urdu papers also thrive on promoting narrow sectarianism and ‘emotionalism’, deliberately highlighting provocative and anti-Muslim news, for that is what sells. And since a very significant proportion of the readers of Urdu papers are madrasa-educated, these papers pander to their tastes and prejudices and their conservative, even reactionary, stances.                                                           * An incisive essay by the editor of the volume, Ather Farouqui, further highlights some of the unsavoury aspects of contemporary Urdu journalism. Right since 1947, Farouqui contends, albeit with a few stray exceptions, Urdu papers have failed to play a constructive role in shaping Muslim sensibilities to help the community face the enormous challenge of adjusting as minority in India. This, he argues, has to do with the nature of the Urdu readership and the political and economic proclivities of Urdu journalists. Urdu papers, he laments, have further reinforced a fiercely sectarian and ‘emotional’ outlook and a ‘ghetto mentality’ among Muslims. Urdu journalism has remained largely static and its ethos and subject matter have hardly changed with the times. In fact, in significant respects they have become worse, he remarks, with several Urdu papers brazenly fanning religious obscurantism for petty gains. In this regard, Farouqui approvingly quotes the Urdu critic Masoom Moradabadi, editor of Khabardar Jadid, as pathetically lamenting that:  ‘The majority of Urdu newspapers wish to keep their readers buried under grief and pessimism and […] mentally retarded so that they may be rendered inactive in practical life. Since Independence, the majority of Urdu newspapers have done nothing except lamentation. They deliberately search [for] and compile such material as would push Muslims into pessimism and hopelessness. These newspapers publish stories of the tyranny [unleashed] on the community with renewed vigour, but they never care to educate [Muslims] and tell them that there are ways and means to come out from these circumstances and live a respectable life. They […] are scared that [if Muslims are] adequately guided […] no one will buy their blood-drenched newspapers’ (pp.244-45). Instead of providing Muslim with positive role-models and inspiration, Urdu papers, Farouqui points out, constantly dwell on the fact of anti-Muslim discrimination, claiming that all the woes of the community are a result of such discrimination at the hands of the state or various other forces that are said to be engaged in a ‘conspiracy’ against them. Farouqui does not deny the obvious reality of anti-Muslim discrimination. At the same time, he remarks that this is just one part of a larger story. Muslim marginalization owes also to the unenviable post-Partition fears and insecurities and anti-Muslim violence as well as a host of other factors internal to the Muslim community, including misplaced priorities of the Muslim political leadership. However, the Urdu press conveniently ignores these internal factors. This denial, instead of helping Muslims, only further complicates and exacerbates their ‘backwardness’. In this regard, Farouqui opines  that if anti-Muslim violence were to cease and if the state took a genuine interest in helping solve the manifold economic and social problems of the Muslims, it is likely that the Urdu press ‘would not be able to misguide and exploit innocent Muslims’ (p.245). Another major lacuna of the Urdu press, Farouqui writes, is that it continues to ignore the changing social realities of the Muslim community and the country as a whole. For instance, it does not give adequate space to the voices of a small but emerging ‘modern’ educated middle-class among north Indian Muslims. It provides little information or guidance on issues related to educational and job opportunities for Muslim youth. It is also geographically limited in its appeal. While claiming to speak for all the Muslims of India, the north Indian Urdu press actually reflects the interests, concerns and worldviews of many north Indian Muslims, mostly madrasa-educated people. The communal rhetoric of the Muslim press and political leaders of north India, which they seek to export to the rest of the country, does not, Farouqui notes, strike a sympathetic chord in several other parts of the country where inter-communal relations are more harmonious and where  numbers of Muslims have witnessed considerable economic and educational progress. Farouqui also dwells on unethical practices that he considers fairly widespread in the Urdu press. For instance, he remarks that government advertisements to Urdu newspapers—an effort to ‘appease’ vocal and influential Muslim opinion-makers and, through them, to garner Muslim votes—are readily exploited by some Muslims who are not really journalists but who obtain a registration number for setting up an Urdu paper, publish a few dozen copies and grossly exaggerate their circulation figures in order to get government advertisements and a quota of newsprint. In this regard, Farouqui points out, the Registrar for Newspapers of India often plays a passive role and does not properly check the authenticity of these figures. In this way, he says, the vast majority of the registered Urdu publications do not reach the public at all. Another serious allegation that Farouqui levels against Urdu papers is that most of them enjoy patronage of conservative Muslim politicians of north India. He claims that ‘It is widely known that they receive their funding from the same sources which finance the activities of fundamentalist Muslim leaders’ (p.242). He also points out that because Urdu papers fail to get commercial advertisements they feel compelled to boost their sales by thriving on sensationalism and religious bigotry and stories about ‘conspiracies’—real, but also imaginary—against Islam and Muslims. This, in turn, also works to the advantage of Muslim religious and political elites, who rely on such issues to gain the support of the Muslim public. Not surprisingly, then, Farouqui observes, ‘modern’ educated middle class Muslims who are interested in national and international issues rarely read Urdu papers, and patronize English or vernacular papers instead. Urdu papers also generally suffer from a high degree of unprofessionalism, Farouqui observes. They usually have a skeleton, poorly qualified and pathetically-paid staff, who face poor working conditions and are constantly at the mercy of the editors and owners of the papers (these two roles are generally combined in one person). They also suffer from a serious lack of originality. Typically, they simply collect news and stories that have already been published elsewhere and mould them according to own policy and ideology so that they appear provocative and anti-Muslim, thereby boosting their sales. They have little or no role for proof readers and copy editors. Most subeditors in Urdu papers, Farouqui tells us, are not well-educated—few know English or have a good grasp of developments in the world around them, because most of them are madrasa graduates. Urdu papers also generally have no space for intellectuals. Nor do they commission articles. In all  then, Farouqui argues, the Urdu press is now in an advanced state of decay.                                                           * A similar argument is made by the noted Delhi-based Islamic scholar Maulana Wahiduddin Khan. He laments what he sees as the pathetic condition of the Muslim press—not just in India but globally—an indication of which, he contentiously argues, is that this press is not even an accepted source of Muslim news. The Muslim media, he contends, reflects the alarming lack of social awareness among Muslims as a community and only further reinforces it. It actively discourages good writers and thinkers from engaging in and with it. Berating Muslim papers for their obsessive concern with controversial matters that involve strife with other communities, the Maulana advises them follow the Quran in avoiding conflict with others as far as possible and in seeking dialogue as a way out instead.  He claims that the Muslim media, as a whole, does not abide by Quranic injunctions in this matter. Hence, he contends, ‘Judged by Koranic standards, Muslim journalism falls far below that of others.’ While the Quran encourages a positive attitude and stresses dialogue with others, ‘the entire Muslim press of the present-day’, he bemoans, ‘is plunged in negativism.’ ‘Where the Koran stressed the importance of action and the avoidance of reaction, present-day Muslim journalism as a whole is oriented towards and motivated by reaction’. Harsh words, but they ring true. The Indian Muslim media, the Maulana insists, ‘presents no model of excellence’ to young Muslims. Instead, he says, it is packed with ‘amateur journalists who resort to yellow journalism’ and ‘unscrupulous sensationalism’ (p.260). In part, he indicates, this is because it is regarded by some as the only way to survive in the absence of a substantial Muslim presence in the industrial and finance sectors that could have otherwise been a source of funds for the Muslim media. In line with Quranic teachings, the Maulana suggests, Muslims—and this includes the Muslim media—should ignore the difficulties that they face and, instead, seek out and make proper use of the opportunities that are available to them. He minces no words in arguing that the Muslim press, in general, rarely abides by the Quran in this respect. ‘Today,’ he says, ‘Muslim journalism has devoted itself entirely to ferreting out difficulties, mainly plots and conspiracies of others against them’. ‘Hundreds and thousands of newspapers and periodicals’, he notes, ‘are brought out by Muslims but although they all appear under different titles, they might well be lumped together under the single title of “protest”. If we substituted “Protest Daily”, “Protest Weekly” or “Protest Monthly” for their original titles this would in no way be inappropriate to their contents.’ This, he insists, bodes ill for the Muslims rather than helping their cause as many of them might fondly imagine. ‘In the light of Koranic wisdom’, he says, ‘nothing but negative reaction with constant repetition builds up a paranoid mentality’. This leads to constant protest and strife, which is hardly conducive to ‘positive, practical struggle’ and ‘constructive thinking’. ‘Regeneration can come only through self-construction,’ he goes on. ‘It can never result from the mere lodging of protests against others’ (p.256). The Maulana spares no words in berating what he regards as Muslim self-righteousness. He insists—though here, of course, one could differ with him to some extent—that it is completely erroneous to blame non-Muslims (as much of the Muslim media does) for Muslim woes. But he is absolutely right when he points out that several of the manifold problems of the Muslims are of their own making. Equally valid is his critique of the marked tendency of many Muslims, as well as much of the Muslim press, to refuse to engage in any meaningful introspection. He expresses his profound disgust with what he regards as the obsessive focus of the Muslim press with Muslim issues alone and its indifference to the plight of others. He is equally scathing in his criticism of what he refers to as ‘the image the Muslims cherish of themselves as being faultless and above reproach’, as allegedly ‘absolutely perfect, but ill-treated human beings, and as ‘entirely  virtuous and innocent of all wrongdoing’. ‘It is on the basis of this kind of one-sided and partial news-reporting’, the Maulana laments, that many Muslims want to create their own media which, they hope, can counter the biased non-Muslim press. The Maulana sagely comments thus: ‘What they do not realize is that the world for which they want to create such a press has neither any need nor any interest in it. Such papers issued by Muslims are destined to be read by Muslims alone.’ Furthermore, he caustically remarks, this sort of journalism ‘will only lull the community to sleep by providing it with doses of opium: it cannot become the means of its regeneration’ (p.259). This does not mean that the Maulana sees absolutely no hope at all for the Muslim media. He advises young Muslims to seek out a career in the media and suggests that Muslim organizations take an active role in promoting this.                                                           * Winding up this long list of well-justified complaints against the Urdu media is an incisive overview of the Urdu press by Arshad Amanullah, a madrasa graduate and now a documentary film-maker based in Delhi. Among other factors, he argues, the hostility of political parties to Urdu has been responsible for blocking the emergence of a new generation of Urdu-speaking Muslims with a ‘secular’ outlook. This void in Urdu journalism, he contends, has been filled largely by graduates of conservative madrasas. In turn, this has ‘culminated the process of the transformation of Urdu journalism into Islamist journalism’ (p.264). But there is, Amanullah tells us, at least some cause for cheer. For instance, he says, South Indian Urdu papers are not marred—at least not to the same degree—by the ‘emotionalism’ of their north Indian counterparts. One reason for this, he suggests, is that the former are generally better funded and so, unlike the latter, do not need to resort to ‘sensationalism’ in order to attract readers and their money. There have also been significant technological developments in the Urdu media of late, Amanullah writes. Several Urdu papers have launched electronic editions, and some years ago India’s first Urdu language news service was started, with a staff that includes a number of women—a rarity for the Urdu media. The Lucknow-based daily Aaj, established some years ago by the noted reformist Shia scholar Maulana Kalbe Sadiq, is, Amanullah writes, charting a new course in Urdu journalism. In terms of variety of content and presentation, he  says, it has no parallel in the rest of the north Indian Urdu press. Interestingly, he notes, it has pages for literary writings, economics and science, unlike most other Urdu papers. At the same time, Amanullah says, most Urdu papers, including the largest circulated Urdu daily in India—Rashtriya Sahara Urdu, which comes out in nine editions—continue to thrive on sensational stories of anti-Muslim ‘conspiracies’ while ignoring basic issues of economics and education of the Muslims. This is, in a sense, a reflection of the fact that most Urdu journalists are graduates of conservative madrasas. According to Amanullah, they lack any training whatsoever in the social sciences and are generally bereft of the ‘interrogative spirit that is an essential quality in journalism’. Matters are only made worse  by the fact that, so Amanullah says, the main criterion for being a journalist in an Urdu paper is the ability to write ‘flowery language’(p.277).                                                           * A couple of pieces, in the form of general observations about portrayals of Muslims in the media rather than detailed analyses, are also included in this volume. In his contribution, political scientist Rajni Kothari expounds on what he feels is the urgent for Muslims to view themselves ‘not communally but socially, as part of a larger struggle for social justice, equity and democracy in society as a whole’—an accurate suggestion, but this is, of course, easier said than done, given the relentless threats that many Muslims face precisely because of being Muslim. Kothari also rightly stresses the urgent need for democracy within Muslim community, besides in Indian society as a whole. However, some might regard his prediction that as Muslims join hand with democratic forces among Hindus ‘the press will follow suit and become more constructive’ (p.39) as somewhat naïve and overly optimistic. Besides lamenting the fact that media reporting about Muslims is greatly shaped by discourses about ‘Islamic fundamentalism’ and stressing the need for Muslims to take to the media in a more proactive way, the piece by the late K.M.A.Munim, former editor of the Bangladesh Observer, tells us very little. Charles Borges’ article takes up the specific case of Goa and examines how Muslims are projected in the Goan press. Not surprisingly, he concludes that anti-Muslim prejudice is rife and that the Goan media generally portrays and reinforces stereotypically negative images of Muslims, as alleged ‘terrorists’, ‘fundamentalists’ and so on. A rather shoddy piece by Eselle Dryland, titled ‘Indian Muslims and the Free Press’, purports to examine how what the author calls the Indian ‘free press’ (she uses the term without the mandatory inverted commas) portrays Muslims. She tells us little that other contributors to this volume do not say,  but usefully adds that the point that the Indian Muslim press is rife with pious platitudes and constant evocations of a glorious past, and is, on the whole, devoid of the skills and expertise needed to compete with the non-Muslim press.                                                           * Two articles in the book deal with the representation of Muslims in the Western media. In her piece, titled ‘Islam and the West—Ominous Misunderstandings’, Susan Maitra berates the Western media for deliberately seeking to create and cultivate the image of Islam and Muslims as the new public enemy. Taking advantage of deep-rooted Islamophobic sentiments as well as ignorance about Islam among many Westerners, she says significant sections of the Western media are deploying Islamophobia as a cover-up to justify Western imperialism and wars against Muslim states. Howard Brasted’s analysis of the Australian press reveals similar biases against Islam and Muslims. Invariably, he writes, Muslims are presented in the Australian media in stereotypical and extremely negative terms that are sensationalist and simplistic. To an extent, he says, this is a reflection of latent Christian prejudices against Islam. In addition to this is the lingering legacy of Orientalism, although recent acts of heinous violence by self-styled Islamists in the name of Islam have further strengthened anti-Muslim sentiments in Australia, and, indeed, over much of the rest of the world. In this regard, Brasted rightly notes that Muslims have a major responsibility in working to promote a better media image of themselves and the religion they claim to follow. He approvingly quotes the American Muslim scholar Siraj Wahhaj as insisting that if Muslims want Islam to be promoted in the media as a religion of tolerance, and not terror, they will  need to demonstrate this by their own actions.                                                                    * In his article on the portrayal of Muslims in Indian movies, Moinuddin Jinabade points out that Muslim characters in Bollywood movies are rarely presented as ‘normal’ people. Rather, they are made to abide by a stereotype and this reinforces the notion of Muslim ‘difference’ and ‘exceptionalism’. In Bollywood movies, a Muslim is invariably a north Indian who spouts Urdu poetry, and sports a beard or a tawiz. He is often portrayed as a decadent pan-chewing, hukkah-puffing feudal lord wallowing in wanton luxury. He is generally presented as overtly and ‘excessively’ religious. Muslim women are invariably depicted as hapless, veiled creatures, perpetual objects of allegedly uncontrollable male Muslim lust. In many films Muslims occupy such roles as smugglers, butchers, gangsters and beggars. The latest, and most dangerous, stereotype of the Muslim to inhabit Bollywood is that of the Muslim-as-terrorist, and several movies have been produced  in recent years centering on this theme. Muslims thus come to be cruelly caricatured in Bollywood. Rarely, if ever, do Bollywood movies reflect Muslims as ‘ordinary’ people unmarked by their community or religious affiliations, contrary to the Hindu case. But this, Jinabde perceptively adds, is by no means limited to Bollywood alone—even soap operas broadcast on Indian television channels are invariably set in comfortably upper-middle class and ‘high’ caste Hindu homes.                                                           * This book cannot afford to be missed by anyone interested in Indian Muslim affairs and in media projections of Muslims. One will not, of course, agree entirely with everything that the various authors have to say. Admittedly, the book also suffers from serious limitations, probably inherent in an edited volume of this type. There are, for instance, no contributions by editors or others working in the Urdu media. Nor are there any contributions dealing with the crucial issue of Muslim women and their representation in the media. Likewise, voices from south India, where the Muslim experience differs considerably from the north, are entirely absent. Certain chapters are plainly shoddy and could well have been kept out. Yet, and despite all of this, this book excels. ----------------------------------- Yoginder Sikand is associated with the Centre for the Study of Social Exclusion and Inclusive Policy at the National Law School, Bangalore. -- Sukhia Sab Sansar Khaye Aur Soye Dukhia Sahib Kabir Jagey Aur Roye The world is 'happy', eating and sleeping The forlorn Kabir Sahib is awake and weeping Check out my blogs: www.madrasareforms.blogspot.com www.islampeaceandjustice.blogspot.com _______________________________________________ Foil-l mailing list Foil-l at insaf.net http://insaf.net/mailman/listinfo/foil-l_insaf.net Reply Forward New window Print all Sponsored Links 10,000 free email leads now and 60,000 email leads each month. Lead Club email leads. www.leadclub.net Customized Stamping Foils Eye-Catching Secure Stamping Foils Permanent Stamping. Visit Us Now! VeritechIndia.com Second Life advertising Promote your Second Life business. Try Subscribe-O-Matic for free. www.subscribeomatic.com Vb Script High-quality applications & bottom line savings. TRY VSTS 2008 ! Microsoft.com/India/VSTS-2008 Online MLM Business? 3,568 Leads and 156 Recruits $73,568, All in 3 Months! raw86.com/spiderweb About these -- http://venukm.blogspot.com/ -- http://venukm.blogspot.com/ From aliens at dataone.in Sun Apr 26 11:18:04 2009 From: aliens at dataone.in (bipin) Date: Sun, 26 Apr 2009 11:18:04 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] communist conspiracy Message-ID: <005701c9c632$918d70c0$0201a8c0@limo> Dear Prakash, This article is prepared by leftists only and can not be counted as neutral analysis. Today WB is way back in many criteria compared many states of India. Even in the average poverty line also, WB is back than the national average. For Nuclear deal, I have gave clear reason that Uranium is required for our existing plants to run else they would have been scrapped. For this main reason our compulsion to make such agreement since the country is under heavy power crisis. Anyway, thanks for your reply for my 2 points only, rest of the points, I think you have no valid reason. thanks Bipin ----- Original Message ----- From: "prakash ray" To: Sent: Monday, April 20, 2009 7:45 PM Subject: Re: [Reader-list] The Communist Conspiracy ! > Dear Bipin ji, > > kindly refer to these links to find answers to your questions: > > visit this page to know about the achievements of the Left Front govt in > West Bengal > > http://www.pragoti.org/node/12 > > visit the page and click on 'No to Nuclear Deal'. There you will find many > write-ups and articles articulatating the position of the Left on the > Deal. > > http://cpim.org/ > > > Thank you > > PKR > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > subscribe in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> From rakesh.rnbdj at gmail.com Sun Apr 26 11:36:37 2009 From: rakesh.rnbdj at gmail.com (Rakesh Iyer) Date: Sun, 26 Apr 2009 11:36:37 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] What the Communists have done to West Bengal in 30 years! In-Reply-To: <98f331e00904251404m5e7a6333gac953495e1e07640@mail.gmail.com> References: <98f331e00904251404m5e7a6333gac953495e1e07640@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: Dear Prakash jee First of all, I didn't get proper time to go through the article and discuss all the points, but from a gist of what I read, I have the following queries: 1) The entire article first of all focusses on the agricultural production of West Bengal. My query is that I have read that agricultural production is growing at a slower pace after the 1990's, when the effects of the agricultural land reforms were over. Could you clarify on that? I know you may say that in the Tenth Five-year plan, it is better than the national average. But then, there are certain regions in India where agricultural growth is not that great as well, and so it would be better to look at West Bengal's ranking among say the 5-10 top agricultural regions of India. Is that too good? 2) You have said the Left has undertaken reforms in governance. I am all for it. But my contention is that the Left mas misused it to control even the panchayats for themselves. And where they don't get elected, they do not allow financial resources to be allocated properly there, or other administrative problems crop up more. This is something I state based on the articles in the EPW issue I referred to in my previous mail. Is there an answer to that? 3) The Left has actually taken an about-turn on many issues. First of all, it has been protesting against land acquisition in many states like Maharashtra, the northern states and even in Andhra Pradesh. Now, it has done the same in Nandigram and Singur, and this is supported in the article. This is wrong. You can't practice double standards in your policies. 4) The Left has accepted certain reforms and not others. They are allowing industries to come in. Nobody says industries should not be there (except Gandhians). But you can't allow land to be occupied just without any permission of the people and any compensation. Even former Left politicians were disgusted by the events in Singur and Nandigram. What do you wish to say about that? 5) Finally. Buddhadev has advocated FDI in certain sectors, whereas the Left opposes them everywhere. Who is the 'real' Left here? Let me quote here a statement Mr. Gurudas Dasgupta (who belongs to the Left) had made in an NDTV Big Fight Show (when asked by Mr. Rajdeep Sardesai if the Left is a monolith) : 'We have one party and one voice. There is no difference between Buddhadev's words and the Left party's views'. Now if the same Buddhadev argues for FDI (though within limits) and Achuthanandan in Kerala is against it, whom should I believe? @ Anupam jee: You had long back raised the point that the Left is not doing practically what it believes in theory. Sitaram Yechury, in the Walk to Talk, had this to say about Marxism : *That’s right. Ultimately Marxism is a creative science which is the concrete analysis of concrete conditions. Conditions change and if your analysis doesn’t, you are not a Marxist. * So, Prakash jee, what I get from that is that Marxism is an ideology which can be suited depending on what you wish to do. Pretty much what the Communist Party in China is also doing. And if that is true, then which Left should I trust? The 'old Left' or the 'new Left'? And why? Regards Rakesh From rakesh.rnbdj at gmail.com Sun Apr 26 11:38:37 2009 From: rakesh.rnbdj at gmail.com (Rakesh Iyer) Date: Sun, 26 Apr 2009 11:38:37 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] What the Communists have done to West Bengal in 30 years! In-Reply-To: References: <98f331e00904251404m5e7a6333gac953495e1e07640@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: Dear Prakash and Anupam jee Since you may want to know which question was being answered by Yechury when he said the above related quote about Marxism, the question is: *But your party and ideology have also evolved — from not accepting parliamentary democracy to now inviting FDI. * http://www.indianexpress.com/news/this-time-too-a-front-will-emerge...-there-will-be-a-new-regrouping...-ideal-would-be-to-have-a-majority-without-cong...-allies-in-upa-would-be-rethinking/448953/0 That's the link of the interview. You can go through it. Regards Rakesh * * From chandni.parekh at gmail.com Sun Apr 26 12:53:04 2009 From: chandni.parekh at gmail.com (Chandni Parekh) Date: Sun, 26 Apr 2009 12:53:04 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Screening of Film on Peace Initiatives in Kashmir, April 27, Juhu Message-ID: From: "Vikalp at Prithvi - Mumbai" * * *VIKALP @ PRITHVI* * * Is a collaboration between Vikalp: Films for Freedom and Prithvi Theatre. We bring you a curated selection of short films, animation films and documentary films on the last Monday of every month at Prithvi House. * * *ON MONDAY, 27th APRIL, 2009* *Starting 7 PM * Film screening followed by a session with filmmakers Kavita Pai and Hansa Thapliyal *Yi As Akh Padshah Bai (There was a Queen…)* 105 minutes, Documentary film In Kashmiri, Urdu, Hindi and English with English subtitles *Credits* Directed by Kavita Pai and Hansa Thapliyal |Produced by Other Media Communications | Cameraperson Ranu Ghosh |Sound by Gissy Michael | Editing by Gouri Patwardhan | Music by Manish J. Tipu *Directors’ Note* "Give us guns and we'll play our role!" This is what Farhana had to say, less than a week after her sister was buried. Farhana's sister Shahnaza, and her friend, Ulfat, victims of 'crossfire', were barely seventeen when they died - as old as the tehreek that exploded into existence in 1989, shattering forever the peace of the Valley, turning it into one of the most critical conflict zones in the world. Over these eighteen years, flashes of intensified conflict and bouts of negotiations have followed one another with monotonous regularity in Kashmir. Newspapers and television channels manufacture predictable binary images of conflict – angry men and weeping women, misguided innocents and fundamentalist separatists, victims and aggressors. Over and above these is the image that erases all differences – the Kashmiri as terrorist. When we set out to make a film on peace initiatives by women in Kashmir, the question uppermost in our minds was, do women really want peace, as opposed to men? At what cost? Can 'peace' still the turmoil at the heart of every Kashmiri? What are the conditions that beget violence, that drive young men to take to the gun? What then, are the conditions for peace? It felt strange to speak to women, only women, ignoring the other half. So we spoke to a few men – one a former militant, another who had sent his son for training across the border with his blessings, a third, a school master, who lost his son in a gun battle only to realize he was a militant, a fourth, a school boy, whose brother was killed in crossfire – we spoke to men and realized that while every story in Kashmir has the power to shock and move, while the stories of both men and women were compelling in their honesty, in their rage, in their grief, in their helplessness, in their contempt, in their fierce refusal to forget; the women's stories are markedly different in their determination to survive, to nurture. It is through these women – proud, strong, with an undying zest for life – that we try to explore what peace means and how it can come about in Kashmir. *No Entry Fee. Limited Seating. * *Prithvi House, Opposite Prithvi Theatre, Janki Kutir, Juhu, Mumbai. * *The registration desk will be open between 6 pm to 6:45 pm only. * *For more information, write to us at vikalp.prithvi at gmail.com. * *For screening queries contact Anand Patwardhan 9819882244 Lynne Henry 9820896425* From kshmendra2005 at yahoo.com Sun Apr 26 15:14:49 2009 From: kshmendra2005 at yahoo.com (Kshmendra Kaul) Date: Sun, 26 Apr 2009 02:44:49 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Reader-list] Whither Self-Censorship? Media Councils? Censure? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <581974.6886.qm@web57208.mail.re3.yahoo.com> Dear Rakesh   Totally agree with your words "The freedom of speech has an inherent duty within it that people should speak the truth, and what they are not sure about, they should state that it's their opinion."   While this has it's own dimensions in Private Domains, here (I hope you agree) we are talking 'Free Speech' in the Public Domain and especially by the Media.   Howsoever Free we might desire Freedoms should be, there cannot be any Unconditional Freedom because that would for sure lead to exploitation. All Freedoms have to be regulated for sake of the cliche 'One entity's Freedom ends where another entity's Freedom begins'     Think about the functioning of Capital Markets under the Free Market Economy regimes. They have (in India) regulatory overseeing by RBI, SEBI and the Stock Markets themselves. Yet a 'SATYAM' took place because the regulatory institution of External Audit failed (either by collusion in the fraud, or by not doing the due-diligence). But the first regulatory requirement is the Internal Audit which was totally corrupted in the case of 'SATYAM'.    Whenever we talk about Press Freedom (Media Freedom), accountability to or answerability to the the requirements or injunctions of any external regulatory regimes is anathema to most.   Where is this Self- Audit, Self-Regulation, Self-Censure by the Media in India? Some institutions do exist, but their effectiveness can be judged by the regularity with which the Media Freedom is abused either blatantly or subtly.    It is unfair to ask for an individual or a group to approach the Courts for castigating this abuse of Freedom indulged in by the Media. Unfair to expect an individual or group to match the physical and financial stamina of a Media organisation who (I am quite certain) would have Lawyers on retainership if not in actual employ.   Should the State step in with a Media Regulator? That might be seen as and would lead to censorship.   What then is the solution?     Kshmendra     --- On Sat, 4/25/09, Rakesh Iyer wrote: From: Rakesh Iyer Subject: Re: [Reader-list] Fwd: Fw: Complaint against DNA's coverage of recent rape case in Mumbai To: kshmendra2005 at yahoo.com Cc: "reader-list at sarai.net" , iradcrea at yahoogroups.com, vikalp at yahoogroups.com, "Birth India" , "Shilpa Phadke" Date: Saturday, April 25, 2009, 8:40 PM Dear all As per the blog and the news link given, it is utterly shocking for some, but for me this is only a further fall into the depths to which our morality as a society has sunk. Today, with the cut-throat competition and the kind of rhetoric our society and many among us have fallen to, this is only the next stage of the levels to which we can sink. What shocks me so much is that why didn't people register a case against the DNA, at least as a public interest litigation? After all, at least that could have been done, with the SC today spending more time in deciding these PIL's rather than other cases. Surely, that could have been done to take the DNA to task for publishing such reports. Equally, the courts should have also taken suo-motu cognizance of the case and punished the newspaper. This is not only for this particular case; it has happened in many cases. During 2002 riots, Gujarati newspaper 'Sandesh' gave false news items like some Shiva temple destroyed somewhere or some other Hindu killed, when there were none. Not less than the PUCL report proved it to be a bag of lies. Here too, nothing happened. Similarly our AIMIM also has indulged in various riots for which they spread brilliant rumours, in old areas of Hyderabad. The point is not that some people consider rape an entertainment first; some fools and  hoodlum attitude-bearing people will always be born in a society or will be created. The larger issue is that these should not be allowed to conduct blasphemous acts which tantamount to spreading lies and falsedoms or wrong methods. The freedom of speech has an inherent duty within it that people should speak the truth, and what they are not sure about, they should state that it's their opinion. Resorting to lies is an insult to this freedom. Regards Rakesh From kauladityaraj at gmail.com Sun Apr 26 16:19:25 2009 From: kauladityaraj at gmail.com (Aditya Raj Kaul) Date: Sun, 26 Apr 2009 16:19:25 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Non-bailable warrants against Yasin Malik Message-ID: <6353c690904260349i2ac12cd8mbe420912d1783bc7@mail.gmail.com> *Here is an update on a couple of pending against terrorist Yasin Malik and his other goons. ..thanks * * * *Non-bailable warrants against Yasin* Excelsior Correspondent *JAMMU, Apr 25: *Presiding Officer TADA Court issued non-bailable warrants against accused allegedly involved in kidnapping of Dr Rubiya Sayeed, daughter of then Union Home Minister and former Chief Minister of the State and killing of five Air Force personnel. The non-bailable warrants have been issued to secure their presence in the court on next date of hearing. Besides Jammu and Kashmir Liberation Front (JKLF) supremo Yaseen Malik, the other accused in the case are Javid Mir, Showkat Bakshi, Ali Mohd Mir, Manzoor Ahmed Sofi, Mehraj-ud-Din, Wajahat Bashir, Zaman Mir, Iqbal Gandroo and Yaqoob Pandit. The accused in killing of five Air-Force personnel against whom TADA Court also issued non-bailable warrants are Mohd Yaseen Malik, Javid Mir alias Nalka, Showkat Bakshi, Javid Zargar and Manzoor Sofi. In both the cases, Rafiq alias Nanaji was presented in custody from Udhampur jail. In the meanwhile, Advocate Yogesh Bakshi appearing for the accused persons has filed an application before the Court for recalling the warrants which were issued by the court against his clients. However, TADA Court issued notice to SSP CBI to file objections in this regard. Dr Rubiya Sayeed was kidnapped for the release of five hardcore militants of JKLF. Then Central Government with the consent of J&K Government released five hardcore militants and thereafter kidnappers released the daughter of Mufti Mohd Sayeed. The Air-Force personnel were killed in January 1990 when they were waiting for their Air-Force bus at Batmaloo, Srinagar. Both the cases were transferred to Central Bureau of Investigation (CBI) which after completion of investigations presented challan in the court of law. From 2tahamehmood at googlemail.com Sun Apr 26 18:56:44 2009 From: 2tahamehmood at googlemail.com (Taha Mehmood) Date: Sun, 26 Apr 2009 14:26:44 +0100 Subject: [Reader-list] MNIC: Parliament Questions - 3 Message-ID: <65be9bf40904260626g64e3576aof9acfab34168a687@mail.gmail.com> http://164.100.47.132/psearch/QResult13.aspx?qref=6394 GOVERNMENT OF INDIA MINISTRY OF LAW , JUSTICE AND COMPANY AFFAIRS LOK SABHA UNSTARRED QUESTION NO 556 ANSWERED ON 28.02.2000 USE OF ELECTRONIC VOTING MACHINES AND PHOTO IDENTITY CARDS 556 . Shri M.V.CHANDRASHEKHARA MURTHY SHYAMA SINGH (a) whether the Election Commission have decided to introduce Electronic Voting Machines and mandatory use of Photo Identity Cards in the assembly elections; (b) if so, the details in this regard; (c) whether the Election Commission have completed the task of issuing Photo Identity Cards to all the entitled citizens in the country; and (d) if so, the details thereof and if not, the reasons therefore? ANSWER MINISTER OF LAW, JUSTICE & COMPANY AFFAIRS (SHRI RAM JETHMALANI) (a) to (d) : Yes, Sir. The Electronic Voting Machines were used extensively and successfully during the previous General Elections to the Lok Sabha and certain Legislative Assemblies, viz., Madhya Pradesh, Rajasthan, NCT of Delhi and very recently Haryana and Orissa. Though the production of electors` Photo-Identity Cards at the time of voting has not been made mandatory so far, the Election Commission insisted upon their production or any specified alternative proof of identity during the recent elections to the Legislative Assembly of Haryana which State has been able to provide these cards to its 86.82% of electors. A Statement showing the status Report on progress of issue of electors` Photo Identity Cards in different States is laid on the Table of the House. In this connection, it may be stated that the scheme of issue of electors` Photo Identity Cards is a continuous and ongoing scheme and, therefore, it is practically not possible to cover all the electors in the country under this scheme at any given point of time. STATEMENT IN REPLY TO LOK SABHA UNSTARRED QUESTION NO. 556 FOR 28TH FEBRUARY, 2000 As on 30.11.99 ELECTION COMMISSION OF INDIA ALL INDIA TOTAL 604,867,664 Total Voters 376,777,932 EPIC distributed 62.29 % From 2tahamehmood at googlemail.com Sun Apr 26 18:57:51 2009 From: 2tahamehmood at googlemail.com (Taha Mehmood) Date: Sun, 26 Apr 2009 14:27:51 +0100 Subject: [Reader-list] MNIC: Parliament Questions - 4 Message-ID: <65be9bf40904260627y4043bcecpdc142d625160af4f@mail.gmail.com> http://164.100.47.132/psearch/QResult13.aspx?qref=1273 GOVERNMENT OF INDIA MINISTRY OF HOME AFFAIRS LOK SABHA UNSTARRED QUESTION NO 1958 ANSWERED ON 07.03.2000 NATIONAL IDENTITY CARDS 1958 . Dr. RAGHUVANSH PRASAD SINGH KANTI SINGH (a) whether the Government have received the feasibility report on the issue of Multi-Purpose National Identity Cards throughout the country ; (b) if so, the details thereof ; and (b) if not , the reasons therefor ? ANSWER MINISTER OF STATE IN THE MINISTRY OF HOME AFFAIRS ( SHRI I .D.SWAMI) (a) to (c) : No, Sir. The task of preparing the Feasibility Report was entrusted to a professional consultancy firm in October, 1999. The Feasibility Report is expected shortly. From 2tahamehmood at googlemail.com Sun Apr 26 19:43:30 2009 From: 2tahamehmood at googlemail.com (Taha Mehmood) Date: Sun, 26 Apr 2009 15:13:30 +0100 Subject: [Reader-list] Modi for PM?? Message-ID: <65be9bf40904260713x154eaa4ve4aa1562b22c6527@mail.gmail.com> Dear All I have stated in my earlier posts how, a bollywood starlet, Preity Zinta has voiced the need for a MNIC card. I was quite amused by this news item pasted below which hinted that Ms Zinta would also like to have Mr. Modi as her PM. This is what she has to say about our own 'Hindu Hriday Samrat'- 'today I support him with all my heart. He should be India’s Prime Minister. Look at how he has administered Gujarat. Every politician has something bad to his name but Modi is one politician who also has something good to his name. If we have five states like Gujarat, India will shine.” I think Ms. Zinta's statements both in terms of MNIC and Modi are important because of the platform which popular culture provides, which has certainly far more reach than, say, a press statement from Registrar General of India's office or for that matter a question asked in the parliament on the need for a MNIC card. Regards Taha http://deshgujarat.com/2009/01/25/now-preity-zinta-says-narendra-modi-should-be-indias-pm/ Now Preity Zinta says, Narendra Modi should be India’s PM Ahmedabad, DeshGujarat, 25 January, 2009 After India’s top business honchos including Ratan Tata, Mukesh Ambani, Sunil Bharti Mittal, Anil Ambani, Kumarmangalam Birla and Politicians from completely different ideology CPM Muslim MP from Kerala Mr. Abdullakutti and Trinamool Congress leader Ms. Mamta Banerjee, Gujarat’s popular Chief Minister Narendra Modi has found one more recent public supporter and admirer, this time from Bollywood. Bollywood film actress Preity Zinta in her latest interview praised Narendra Modi and said Narendra Modi should become India’s Prime Minister. When Times of India group’s tabloid Mumbai Mirror asked Preity Zinta “Do you plan to enter politics?” Preity replied “More than one party has asked me to stand in the forthcoming elections but I have no interest in politics. Every political party is the same. I am open to supporting someone but not a party. I don’t support Hindu-Muslim politics. I certainly don’t support what happened in Godhra. Even Narendra Modi must have realised this and it won’t happen again. Till last year, I didn’t support Modi but today I support him with all my heart. He should be India’s Prime Minister. Look at how he has administered Gujarat. Every politician has something bad to his name but Modi is one politician who also has something good to his name. If we have five states like Gujarat, India will shine.” Recently in Narendra Modi’s Vibrant Gujarat Global Investors Summit, Bollywood actors Paresh Rawal and Shatrughna Sinha were present. In past, item girl Rakhi Sawant had compared Modi with lion when she was in Ahmedabad. Last year Bollywood actor Anupam Kher had arranged a special preview of his film ‘A Wednesday’ for Modi in Gandhinagar and praised Modi. From atreyee.m at gmail.com Sun Apr 26 19:58:59 2009 From: atreyee.m at gmail.com (atreyee majumder) Date: Sun, 26 Apr 2009 10:28:59 -0400 Subject: [Reader-list] Fwd: reader-list Digest, Vol 69, Issue 146 (on Kafka and the 'horrible') Message-ID: <1944bc230904260728h5908ed2el5d5c98528f4034fc@mail.gmail.com> Dear Taha, Thank you for a series of interesting posts. On the intrusion of the 'horrible' into everyday life, I wonder if there is room to think of the wide range of 'horrible's that have repeatedly made inroads into life on the socio-political margins, that have variously been ingeniously domesticated and made into push-buttons for accessing power and resource, in bits and starts. I understand that the biometric card would fit into the perfect mould of regime-artefacts that configure and map and track 'population' as a a primary mode of administering power. But, it seems such regime-artefacts (much like the Green Card, or the MNC-employee card) are accepted and used by people in a conscious moment of acquiescence with power, recognising benefits of wearing its cloak. The all-encompassing import of power that creates docile units of membership, stamped and marked through these cards, probably gets deflected in unpredictable directions in ways that the logic of the card cannot imagine at the outset. I am thinking of the various stories surrounding the clamour for the passport, which indeed is a typical regime-artefact that maps and marks, but its use (especially when one is speaking from some form of margin) yields tiny windows for the struggle for resource that may turn its 'horrible'ness into a certain domesticated-ness through stretegic use. So the asylum-certificate, the passport, the employee-card, the biometric ICICI card at various points lead to situations of respite from maybe a brutal search and interrogation, a harangue at a checkpost, detention at an airport. It would be diluting the craftsmanship of the shrewd exercise of politico-economic membership oportunities on the part of jhoppadpatti citizen to render a picture of the card that paints it only as a violent intrusion, and not also a window to dig into repertories of resource and power. Atreyee On Sun, Apr 26, 2009 at 1:24 AM, wrote: > Send reader-list mailing list submissions to > reader-list at sarai.net > > To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit > https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to > reader-list-request at sarai.net > > You can reach the person managing the list at > reader-list-owner at sarai.net > > When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific > than "Re: Contents of reader-list digest..." > > > Today's Topics: > > 1. On Kafka and 'unintended benefits' of smart cards. (Taha Mehmood) > 2. Re: On Kafka and 'unintended benefits' of smart cards. > (Rakesh Iyer) > 3. Fwd: WHAT SHOULD THE LGBT MOVEMENT FIGHT FOR? (Sherry Wolf) > (Venugopalan K M) > 4. Fwd: Dehumanising the Muslim Woman By A. Faizur Rahman (fwded > by Yogi Sikand) (Venugopalan K M) > > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > > Message: 1 > Date: Sun, 26 Apr 2009 00:49:25 +0100 > From: Taha Mehmood <2tahamehmood at googlemail.com> > Subject: [Reader-list] On Kafka and 'unintended benefits' of smart > cards. > To: Sarai Reader-list > Message-ID: > <65be9bf40904251649x3600ee05r2af0f86f6e3dedaa at mail.gmail.com> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252 > > Dear All, > > In his essay on Kafka, Adam Kirsch explains the term“Kafkaesque” as > thus: 'the nonchalant intrusion of the bizarre and horrible into > everyday life, the subjection of ordinary people to an inscrutable > fate'. While reading all sorts of literature about the national > identity card, smart card, surveillance technologies etc I have often > thought about the effect of these technologies on our lives and quite > unlike the doomsdasque 'horrible' as Kirsch mentions, for me it > appears, as if, like everything else some Indians are going to > celebrate the coming of this new technology in their own way, while > others are going to be paranoid about it , others still will not care > about it at all or in a uniquely Indian fashion, will 'adjust' with it > somehow. > > Otherwise how else could one explain that a product made mostly of > strontium titanate, silicon, some circuits compressed between two > strips of plastic could be regarded as token of 'respect', 'glamor' > and 'dignity'. I wonder if Kafka had been around, how he would have > thought of this rather 'nonchalant intrusion of the 'bizarre' into the > everyday live of the Indians. > > The blog post below is about how 'poor people' living in 'slums' of > Dharavi are buying a Rs200 ICICI smart biometric bank card, not only > because they want to deposit money, but also because, as according to > one Mr. Amitabh Saxena- > > 'But what about the customers who carried no balance? Their revealing > response: the smart card, complete with their name, thumbprint, and > photo, acted as a identify card, and when combined with the adored > ICICI logo, one that commanded respect. India does not have a national > ID card. The smart card, in effect, provided them with an identity. We > received comments like, “I just like to show that I have an account, > it doesn’t matter if I have a balance or not” and “If you are going at > night and you clash the police then you can show them this also.” > > Of course!! > > However what I find interesting in an argument mentioned above are two > underlying assumptions- first that, 'poor people' living in 'slums' > DO NOT have any other form of VALID identification with which they can > pacify the police and second, even IF their identification is VALID > then our law abiding, gentle, humane, efficient, honorable police > force will let them go, without any harassment. > > In this regard let's imagine a scenario which, I am sure, is going to > be a typical case, in the beautiful world of 'smart cards' . > > It is long past midnight. The streets of Bombay are deserted. Ramu and > his brother Lalu, who are from Narkatiya district of Bihar, but who > have been living in Bombay for the past ten years are coming back > home. They meet Pandu havaldar. Pandu's beat is Dharavi. Pandu is > driving a motorbike. Pandu's colleague Shinde is also driving with > him. Pandu is drunk. Shinde is not. They spot Ramu and Lalu who are > walking home after a back biting 14 hour shift at a local factory. > Shnide finds their tired walk 'suspicious'. Pandu senses this > 'suspicion'. They accost Ramu and his brother. > > Pandu: Sir where are you going? > (remember we are in 'new' world now- post smart card world, > everything has 'changed') > Ramu: Home. > Shinde: What is your name Sir. > Ramu: This is Lalu and I am his elder brother Ramu. > Pandu: Can we see some identification papers please. > Ramu: Identification papers. Nnnno...I I I don't have any at the > moment but if you could walk with me to the basti which is just five > kilometers from here then, I promise, I will give it you. > Pandu: (Forgets for a moment that this is post smart card age) teri maa > ki... > Lalu: (frighteningly) Takes out his smart card and gives it to Shinde. > Shinde: Inserts the card, in a portable reader. > The reader tells Shinde, about the name, age, address, thumbprints, > nearest to the kin etc, etc which also mentions Ramu's name. > Shinde: (Smiles) That is alright Sir. Thank you. Sorry for the > trouble. You have a shubha ratri. > Ramu and Lalu: No worries!!! > Ramu to Lalu: Thank GOD for this ICICI smart card, now even the > police is helpless. With the new found, 'respect'. They laugh and walk > back home. > > Please read below to learn more about the 'unintended benefits of > ICICI smart cards', perhaps it gives us a clearer picture of the > 'intended benefits' of MNIC. > > Regards > > Taha > > PS: Meanwhile a RNCOS reports suggests that the, 'The global shipment > of smart card surpassed an estimated 5 Billion units in 2008 and this > figure is projected to surge at CAGR of nearly 11% through 2012, > according to "Smart Card Market Forecast to 2012”, a recent market > research report by RNCOS.' > ( > http://www.emailwire.com/release/20565-RNCOS-Releases-a-New-Report-Smart-Card-Market-Forecast-to-2012.html > ) > > > > ________________________________________________________________________ > > > http://centerforfinancialinclusionblog.wordpress.com/2009/03/31/some-unintended-benefits-of-improving-financial-inclusion/ > > Some Unintended Benefits of Improving Financial Inclusion > > March 31, 2009 in Center for Financial Inclusion | Tags: Financial > Inclusion > > > Posted by Amitabh Saxena > > > The Oscar-winning movie Slumdog Millionaire is a fictional account of > one teenager’s tough life in the slums of Mumbai to eventually winning > the jackpot of a TV game show. But would young Jamal spend all those > rupees or open a savings account to keep them safe? > > > > Through ACCION’s support of its microfinance partner Swadhaar > FinAccess on Alternative Channels, I have had the opportunity a few > times to walk around some of Mumbai’s slums – Kurla, Malad, and > Dharavi (Asia’s largest) – and observe first-hand conditions there and > poor people’s savings patterns. As an NGO, Swadhaar FinAccess is not > regulated to offer savings accounts but wanted to offer the “service” > to its poor clientele. So in January 2008 it struck a > banking-correspondent agreement with ICICI, India’s largest private > bank, where it would set up, staff, and manage small “kiosks” (see > picture at right) in the poorer neighborhoods of Mumbai. Through these > kiosks, clients can open ICICI savings accounts and make basic > transactions, such as balance inquiries, deposits, and withdrawals. > While these special savings accounts designed by ICICI have fewer > options than regular savings accounts, apart from a 200 rupee ($4 USD) > smart-card purchase to open the account, they charge nothing for > transactions and come with few restrictions (e.g., no minimum balance, > less documentation to open an account). In return, Swadhaar receives > a commission from ICICI for the number of new accounts opened, total > average balance, and transaction volume. > > > > When I started analyzing the actual performance behavior of the > accounts last summer, Swadhaar FinAccess was operating four kiosks > through which the client growth had been rather respectable at nearly > 3,000 customers. What surprised me, though, was that we found anywhere > from 75% to 93% of the accounts were not carrying any balance, and > roughly 63% of customers had never made a single transaction. When > asked, ICICI said those figures were around the average for the > 120,000 savings customers acquired through its banking correspondent > network of 40 NGOs. That got us thinking: why would so many poor > people spend a hard-earned 200 rupees for the smart card to open the > account, only to rarely or never use it? > > > > Why, indeed. Through focus groups of Swadhaar FinAccess savings > customers, we uncovered a number of reasons for this behavior. Among > those who carried a balance, their decisions to open an account > stemmed from their impression of the ICICI brand, and its association > with “glamour” and the “middle-class.” For this group, the ICICI name > also provided a sense of security – one of the most important features > in promoting savings – specifically using the metaphor of the bank > being a father-figure that “would help if his children [the customers] > ever got in trouble.” > > > > But what about the customers who carried no balance? Their revealing > response: the smart card, complete with their name, thumbprint, and > photo, acted as a identify card, and when combined with the adored > ICICI logo, one that commanded respect. India does not have a national > ID card. The smart card, in effect, provided them with an identity. We > received comments like, “I just like to show that I have an account, > it doesn’t matter if I have a balance or not” and “If you are going at > night and you clash the police then you can show them this also.” > > > > These comments reveal that a sense of dignity and self-respect were > the unintended benefit of the bank cards, and therefore, well worth > the 200 rupees for many clients. This finding underlines the > importance of treating clients ethically and helping them understand > their rights and responsibilities with financial institutions, an idea > currently being promoted through the Center’s Campaign for Client > Protection. Swadhaar FinAccess is interested in the role of consumer > protection in its operations and is working with the Center to learn > more about the 6 principles of client protection and how to enhance > their role in current operations. > > > > Using these findings, Swadhaar FinAccess, with ACCION’s support, is > undertaking several marketing activities to increase overall usage of > the savings account, as well as implementing client education programs > courtesy of the Dell Foundation. Stay tuned in the coming weeks when > I will write more broadly about product usage in alternative channels > (banking agents, mobile banking, debit cards) and how this affects > both the social and financial bottom-line of MFIs. > > > > Amitabh Saxena is the Director of Alternative Channels at ACCION > International. > > > ------------------------------ > > Message: 2 > Date: Sun, 26 Apr 2009 07:04:23 +0530 > From: Rakesh Iyer > Subject: Re: [Reader-list] On Kafka and 'unintended benefits' of smart > cards. > To: Taha Mehmood <2tahamehmood at googlemail.com> > Cc: Sarai Reader-list > Message-ID: > > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 > > Dear all > > Having heard ourselves in many cases regarding the functioning of the > Indian > police in various cases, and having had the personal experience in one > simple case with them myself, I believe that the Indian police will still > go > on arresting people irrespective of their cards being there or not. > > What I can't understand are the following: > > > 1) The government is talking about MNIC or an identity card. What does an > Indian identity mean? Can somebody define that at least for discussion here > in this forum? > > > 2) The article probably does not understand the major issues of slums. > These > include power being stolen (though major power theft is thanks to > politicians, their kith/kin/acquaintances/friends/etc. and the industries), > sanitation and even livelihood issues. Most importantly, the issue is of > life with dignity, which is missing. > > > 3) The government has not in the least (neither the UPA or the NDA or the > Third Front or the Fourth Front nor Others), have talked about the major > problems confronting people (except through manifestos, which we know how > important are). There are issues of livelihood (roti, kapda and makaan; all > that is there are populist schems : free power (which can only be used by > middle and rich farmers, and especially the rich must be made to pay), no > agricultural tax (most of the rich farmers should be taxed), and sometimes > these BPL schemes (when what is required is a proper PDS system coupled > with > employment schemes like NREGS in the village, or even in urban areas, > especially for slum people). > > > Equally, neither of the fronts has talked about police reforms (those which > can improve the functioning of the police), the electoral reforms (as > suggested by the EC itself, regarding improvement of the electoral system), > the judicial reforms (to ensure the judiciary is also accountable to the > public like the legislature and the executive are), as well as governance > reforms (including the Sarkaria Commission report). > > > There is no understanding as to how any of the fronts wishes to tackle the > global economic crisis, at least its' effects in India. The BJP criticizes > the UPA for the fiscal deficit, and then says it will spend heavily from > the > budget for India's growth. What is this crap? And both are competing on the > rates at which food will be provided to the poor. (Never mind that delivery > systems are also important and food quality must be good as well). > > > And as for health and education, the major fronts have nothing to say > except > allocating money. What is most surprising is that, we all know corruption > is > a major problem in the schemes, and yet just allocating money is considered > enough for the government at the centre. This is crap. The central govt. > has > an added responsibility to ensure that the money they allocate is actually > well spent. The govt does have the CAG and some NGO's undertaking > ground-level work to look at this, but yet there is pilferage of money > (some > on small scale, some on large). Sometimes, projects are not undertaken to > increase their value and then given to contractors. > > > And yet, all our parties can think of is who should be the PM? Does it > matter who is the PM, when the govt. (be it of any party) is going to be a > coalition arrangement, whose core agenda would be 'apni apni dafli, apna > apna raag', and the only thing they cling on to is power, otherwise there > are no values, no customs, and everything is accepted as they say 'in love, > war and elections (and power), everything is fair'. > > > 4) What about chances of corruption in the MNIC? And remember, if > corruption > here happens, the so-called Pakistani terrorists (as our state claims) will > have a field day attacking India's spots without any problems of being > branded as Pakistani as well. Then? > > Hence, we need to have debates on questions like some of these. And as for > the PM debate, I am sure the Indian public will give a fitting reply to all > those who wish to become PM, so that none among them becomes the PM. > > > Regards > > Rakesh > > > ------------------------------ > > Message: 3 > Date: Sun, 26 Apr 2009 10:48:57 +0530 > From: Venugopalan K M > Subject: [Reader-list] Fwd: WHAT SHOULD THE LGBT MOVEMENT FIGHT FOR? > (Sherry Wolf) > To: sarai-list > Message-ID: > <1f9180970904252218s7b1474a0wa35fb510e2098118 at mail.gmail.com> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 > > "..Without acknowledging the evidence to the contrary--and there is > quite a bit--they assumed that given the mainstream nature of > marriage, marriage activists must not care about racism, economic > injustice or taking on the systemic causes of LGBT oppression. > > They are both theoretically and factually mistaken. > > First, gay marriage is a reform. Like all reforms under capitalism, it > leaves the structure of the system intact while alleviating a > grievance--in this case, the denial of both material benefits and the > desire to have LGBT relationships acknowledged as equal to those of > heterosexuals. > > Like the demand for unionization, under which the terms of workers' > exploitation are renegotiated--with workers gaining higher wages and > benefits, but not eliminating the power of bosses--equal marriage > would end some discrimination without eliminating oppression > altogether. > > Second, to challenge the demand for same-sex marriage for not > delivering sexual liberation is a bit like disparaging the civil > rights sit-ins to desegregate lunch counters in the early 1960s for > not eliminating racism. It sets up a false expectation for a reformist > demand, and then assails it for not delivering revolutionary > transformation. > > At the Left Forum meeting, one married gay couple with HIV/AIDS > hammered home what's really at stake in this struggle. > > Vinny Allegrini and Mark de Solla have been living with HIV/AIDS for > 20 years, and were married 15 years ago in Canada. In many concrete > and emotionally compelling ways, their daily struggle to keep alive > and take care of each other--and have medical and state authorities > respect their health care wishes--is codified by their marriage > license, which they must carry with them everywhere to prove that they > are not legal strangers, as they lead lives that are shaped by health > care crises. > > Socialists and other progressives must engage with the genuine > struggle to try and shape a course that is independent of the > Democratic Party establishment and inclusive of broader civil rights > for all LGBT people." > > > > > Analysis: Sherry Wolf > > WHAT SHOULD THE LGBT MOVEMENT FIGHT FOR? > > Different political approaches are emerging inside the LGBT struggle > over what our aims should be--and how we should fight to achieve them. > > http://socialistworker.org/2009/04/21/lgbt-movement > > > > -- > http://venukm.blogspot.com/ > > > ------------------------------ > > Message: 4 > Date: Sun, 26 Apr 2009 10:53:19 +0530 > From: Venugopalan K M > Subject: [Reader-list] Fwd: Dehumanising the Muslim Woman By A. Faizur > Rahman (fwded by Yogi Sikand) > To: sarai-list > Message-ID: > <1f9180970904252223x64772b82o8d0fb2d45d0d0c1 at mail.gmail.com> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252 > > ---------- Forwarded message ---------- > From: yogi sikand > To: saldwr at yahoogroups.com > Date: Tue, 21 Apr 2009 23:38:09 -0700 (PDT) > Subject: Faizur Rahman: Dehumanising the Muslim woman > > > Dehumanising the Muslim woman > > By A. Faizur Rahman > > The passage of a law in Afghanistan asking Muslim women to > unconditionally submit to the sexual whims of their husbands once in > four days is a shocking piece of legislation that seeks to dehumanise > women reducing them to mere chattels devoid of human rights. Although > this law applies only to the Shia minority, it is outrageous that the > Afghan mullahs thought it Islamic to legislate on a private > relationship which is confined to the four walls of a bedroom. To add > insult to injury the 300 women who were bold enough to protest against > this inhuman law were pelted with stones and called “dogs” and “slaves > of the Christians.” One fails to understand why motives should be > attributed to a democratic protest. How can the moderate Muslims who > have always been part of the larger Muslim society suddenly become > agents of the West “which is out to destroy Islam?” The truth is that > it is the bigoted Talibanised Muslims who are destroying Islam through > their misinterpretations and intolerance for progressive ideas. It is > they who need to be treated for their fossilized mind-set. > > It is strange the puppet regime of Hamid Karzai, which was installed > by the US and its allies to replace the Taliban, is doing exactly what > the Taliban would have done if they were in power. If this was what > was in store for Afghanistan why were the Taliban replaced at all? In > fact, the entire region seems to be relapsing into medievalism with > Pakistan signing a deal with the terrorists of the Swat valley to > implement their version of the shariah which is symbolized by the > brutal and arbitrary public flogging of an young girl without > establishing her guilt in a proper court of law, to say nothing about > the recent refusal of a Saudi judge to annul the marriage of an eight > year old child to a forty seven year old man. > > A deeper probe into the psyche of most of the narrow-minded > radicalized jurists would reveal that their interpretations are based > on traditional tafsirs (commentaries) written by patriarchal males > representing only the experiences of men with either the total > exclusion of experiences of women, or their interpretation through the > coloured vision of men. This has resulted in women being brought under > the control of men to be exploited at will. For instance, in > interesting incident concerning the shariah, The New York Times on > March 22, 2007 reported that a German Judge turned down citing the > Quran, a Muslim wife's request for a fast-track divorce on the ground > that her husband beat her from the beginning of their marriage. The > Judge justified her ruling by saying that the couple came from a > Moroccan cultural milieu in which it is common for husbands to beat > their wives because the Quran sanctions such physical abuse. > > The Judge was obviously quoting one of the most mistranslated verses > of the Quran (4:34) which supposedly allows wife beating. The > mistranslated word is wazribuhunna which is derived from the root > zaraba. Major commentators of the Quran including Ibn Kasir, > Pickthall, and Maulana Maududi, the founder of Jamaat-e-Islami, have > rendered this word as "beat them" ignoring the fact that the word > zaraba has various other shades of meaning. Out of the 50 times it > occurs in the Quran, 31 times it has been used in the meaning of "to > explain by giving an example." Only 10 times it has used to mean "to > strike" but mostly in the context of Moses "striking the rock" > or the > sea, and angels "striking the faces" of the sinners. > > The verse 4:34 actually talks about the various means at the disposal > of a husband to bring about a reconciliation with his wife and > obviously beating the wife cannot be an option to sort out > differences. Thus, the translation "beat them" is clearly not > justified in this context. But unfortunately even today most Muslim > societies consider it their Islamic right to beat their wives for > disobedience. In other words, the passage of the controversial Afghan > law would allow husbands to beat their wives if they refuse sex or > step out of the house without their permission. For Islam to be > exploited in this manner is indeed shocking given the fact that the > Prophet was one of the greatest promoters of women’s rights. > > The same holds true for the punishment of stoning to death for > adultery. The primary source of Islamic law, the Quran, does not > prescribe stoning as a punishment for any crime much less adultery. It > only authorizes the Muslim state to flog those guilty of adultery or > fornication but only after the case has been proved by four eye > witnesses which is a near impossibility. Even here the flogging is not > meant to hurt the person but only to humiliate him. A report in > Kitabul Hudud of Bukhari says that when a man was brought before the > Prophet for habitual drinking he was asked to be flogged. And it was > done with a lash made out of twisted clothing which could not have > hurt him. Interestingly, when someone in the group cursed the drunken > man saying “May Allah disgrace you” he was chided by the Prophet. > Compare this to the brutality of what is being done in the name of > Islam today. It is time the ulema worldwide collaborated on a liberal > interpretation of Islam in the modern context. > > (Source: The Hindustan Times, April 18, 2009) > > The author is student of comparative study of religions. He may be > reached at > > > -- > http://venukm.blogspot.com/ > > > > -- > http://venukm.blogspot.com/ > > > ------------------------------ > > _______________________________________________ > reader-list mailing list > reader-list at sarai.net > https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > > > End of reader-list Digest, Vol 69, Issue 146 > ******************************************** > From anansi1 at earthlink.net Sun Apr 26 20:12:34 2009 From: anansi1 at earthlink.net (Paul D. Miller) Date: Sun, 26 Apr 2009 10:42:34 -0400 (GMT-04:00) Subject: [Reader-list] Geneva Anti-Racism Conference: a viewpoint Message-ID: <25292417.1240756955290.JavaMail.root@mswamui-valley.atl.sa.earthlink.net> I just thought I'd pass this along. Paul What Credibility Is There in Geneva's All-White Boycott? The Iranian president's repugnant rhetoric doesn't give Israel's sponsors the right to cry foul when it's called racist By Seumas Milne The Guardian (UK) April 23, 2009 http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2009/apr/23/un-race-conference-walkout-ahmadinejad What do the US, Canada, Australia, New Zealand, the Netherlands, Germany, Poland, Italy and Israel have in common? They are all either European or European- settler states. And they all decided to boycott this week's UN -conference against racism in Geneva - even before Monday's incendiary speech by the Iranian president Mahmoud Ahmadinejad which triggered a further white-flight walkout by representatives of another 23 European states. In international forums, it's almost unprecedented to have such an -undiluted racial divide of whites-versus- the-rest. And for that to happen in a global meeting called to combat racial hatred doesn't exactly augur well for future international understanding at a time when the worst economic crisis since the war is ramping up racism and xenophobia across the world. Didn't Canada or Australia have anything to say about the grim condition of their indigenous people, you might wonder, or Italy and the Czech Republic about violent attacks on Roma people? Didn't any of the boycotters have a contribution to make about the rampant Islamophobia, resurgence of anti-semitism and scapegoating of migrants in their countries over the last decade? The dispute was mainly about Israel and western fears that the conference would be used, like its torrid predecessor in Durban at the height of the Palestinian intifada in 2001, to denounce the Jewish state and attack the west over colonialism and the slave trade. In fact, although it was the only conflict mentioned in the final Durban declaration, the reference was so mild (recognising the Palestinian right to self- determination alongside Israel's right to security) that the then Israeli prime minister, -Shimon Peres, called it "an accomplishment of the first order for Israel". In this week's Geneva statement, Israel isn't mentioned at all. But the US bizarrely still used its reaffirmation of the anodyne Durban declaration to justify a boycott, to the anger of African American politicians such as Jesse Jackson and Barbara Lee, who chairs the US Congressional Black Caucus. In fact, like the other boycotting governments, the US administration had been intensely lobbied by rightwing pro-Israel groups, who had insisted long in advance that the conference would be a "hatefest". Ahmadinejad's grandstanding played straight into that agenda. The most poisonous phrases in the printed version of his speech circulated by embassy officials referred to the Nazi genocide as "ambiguous and dubious" and claimed Zionist "penetration" of western society was so deep that "nothing can be done against their will". That a head of state of a country of nearly 70 million people is still toying with Holocaust denial and European antisemitic tropes straight out of the Tsarist antisemitic forgery, The Protocols of the Elders of Zion, is not only morally repugnant and factually absurd. It's also damaging to the Palestinian cause by association, weakens the international support Iran needs to avert the threat of attack over its nuclear programme, and bolsters Israel's claims that it faces an existential threat. But, perhaps as a result of an appeal by the UN secretary general Ban Ki-moon, Ahmadinejad dropped those provocations at the last minute. What in fact triggered the walkout of European Union ambassadors was his reference to Israel as a "totally racist regime", established by the western powers who had made an "entire nation homeless under the pretext of Jewish suffering" and "in compensation for the dire consequences of racism in Europe". The rhetoric was certainly crude and inflammatory. Britain's foreign secretary David Miliband called it "hate-filled". But the truth is that throughout the Arab, Muslim and wider developing worlds, the idea that Israel is a racist state is largely uncontroversial. The day after Ahmadinejad's appearance, the Palestinian Authority foreign minister, Riyad al-Maliki, echoed the charge in the conference hall, describing Israeli occupation as "the ugliest face of racism". It's really not good enough for Britain's ambassador to the UN in Geneva, Peter Gooderham - who led the Ahmadinejad walkout - to say of the charge of Israel's racism, "we all know it when we see it and it's not that". This is a state, after all, created by European colonists, built on the ethnic cleansing of the indigenous population, whose founding legal principles guarantee the right of citizenship to any Jewish migrant from anywhere in the world, while denying that same right to Palestinians born there along with their descendants. Of course, Israel is much else besides, and the Jewish cultural and historical link with Palestine is a -profound one. But even those Palestinians who are Israeli citizens face what the then Israeli prime minister Ehud Olmert last year called "deliberate and -insufferable" discrimination by a state which defines itself by ethnicity. For Palestinians in the occupied territories, ruled by Israel for most of the state's existence, where -ethnic segregation and extreme -inequality is ruthlessly enforced, the situation is far worse - even without the relentless military assaults and killings. And Israel now has a far-right -government whose foreign minister, Avigdor Lieberman, has said 90% of Israel's Arab citizens have "no place" in the country, should be forcibly "transferred", and only be allowed citizenship in exchange for an oath of loyalty to Israel as a Zionist Jewish state. But if Lieberman had turned up to speak at the Geneva anti-racism conference, who believes that western delegates and ambassadors would have staged a walkout? Of course, there's a perfectly -reasonable argument to be had about the nature of Israel's racism and whether it should be compared to apartheid, for example. But for western governments to hold up their hands in horror when Israel is described as a racist state has no global credibility whatever. Israel's supporters often complain that, whatever its faults, it is singled out for attack while the crimes of other states and conflicts are ignored. To the extent that that's true in forums such as the UN, it's partly because Israel is seen as the unfinished business of European colonialism, along with the Middle East conflict's other special mix of multiple toxins. The Geneva boycotters, fresh from standing behind Israel's carnage in Gaza, are in denial about their own racism - and their continuing role in the tragedy of the Middle East. From 2tahamehmood at googlemail.com Sun Apr 26 22:24:42 2009 From: 2tahamehmood at googlemail.com (Taha Mehmood) Date: Sun, 26 Apr 2009 17:54:42 +0100 Subject: [Reader-list] On Kafka and 'unintended benefits' of smart cards. Message-ID: <65be9bf40904260954l6c625b2by243b7b3dd0617b86@mail.gmail.com> Dear Atreyee, Thank you for your response. To a certain extent I agree with your view. That is why, perhaps I am not too comfortable with responding to a proposal for MNIC card in absolute terms. I would like to think that socio-political margins are the starting point for introduction of any new artefact to not only govern or map but also to test and harvest the efficacies of such devices. In this regard, I think it would be a good idea to bear in mind that while the urban marginalised, the jhoppadpatti citizen maybe thinking of turning this 'horrible'ness into a certain domesticated-ness through stretegic use', the rural marginalised is still searching for answers, even though he maybe a legitimate citizen. Consider for instance a report by Jyoti Thapa Mani published in the Business world on March, 14, 2008. According to this report the officials of the census bureau failed to verify and accord citizenship status of forty eight residents of Chamoli district of Uttrakhand, a state in north of India. People like Kirti Singh Bist, Devendra Gusain and Kuldip Singh Rana were categorized as foreigners because they speak in Nepali, a language, which is not considered to be Indian. ( valid url- http://www.businessworld.in/index.php/Miscellaneous/Identity-Crisis.html ) Maybe in the unfolding of this new artifact we have to see not just in terms of clearly delineating categories like -bizzare- or the -horrible- but a mix of both, in a sense of bizarrely horrible or horribly bizzare !! In the realm of public policy debate of course, we have to bear in mind the good of all; now in an overwhelming rural country like ours, I struggling to draw the line. I do not undermine the sheer inventiveness of the urban marginalized to find a way through the system but in broader terms I do not know for sure whose good will a national identity card, serve in the long run? At the same time I do not want to reflect on MNIC and its implications or intended or unintended benefits only in terms of poor alone. The debate around unequal citizenship also comes into play when one starts to look at how MNIC be used to map and measure nearly 25 million oversees Indians. Warm regards Taha http://www.businessworld.in/index.php/Miscellaneous/Identity-Crisis.html CITIZENSHIP Identity Crisis Citizenship issues plague Nepali-speaking Indians too JYOTI THAPA MANI 14 March 2008 Kirti Singh Bist, devendra gusain and kuldip Singh Rana are among 48 residents of Chamoli district in Uttarakhand who, despite holding identity cards issued by the Election Commissioner of India, have been categorised as foreigners and have had their ration cards cancelled by the district supply officer. Why? Because they speak the Nepali language. In neighbouring Pithoragarh district, in village Darim-Khola, Karam Chandra Baral, a fifth-generation Indian domicile resident (whose ancestors came from Nepal), owns a portion of land duly registered and mutated in his name. However, he cannot build his house on it, because the revenue authorities and Pithoragarh Police identified him as a Nepalese citizen. Baral is also threatened with dispossession of his lawfully purchased land. In Nagpur, Maharashtra, Sitaram Thapa, a permanent employee at Kishen Gurunanak School since 1995, worked as a night guard on a gross monthly salary of Rs 6,000. He was told his salary was to be reduced to Rs 2,500 as a casual labourer because the Maharashtra Education Department had no provisions for employment of guards. When the matter was taken up in the Nagpur Lower Court, the school in its affidavit claimed that Thapa was a Nepalese citizen. Subsequently, in January 2008, the Court asked Thapa to prove his Indian citizenship. All three acts happen to be unconstitutional. The Eighth Schedule of the Indian Constitution lists Nepali among 22 recognised Indian languages. And the 1950 India-Nepal Friendship Treaty allows citizens of both countries full access to all privileges on both sides of the border. Article 7 of the Treaty states: “The Governments of India and Nepal agree to grant, on reciprocal basis, to the nationals of one country in the territories of the other the same privileges in the matter of residence, ownership of property, participation in trade and commerce, movement and other privileges of a similar nature.” Says D.S. Garbiyal, district magistrate of Chamoli, “The ration card cancellation is under enquiry at the sub-district magistrate’s court.” Meanwhile, the 48 Nepali-speaking people in Chamoli continue to starve. Nepalese and Indians have common ethnic roots from time immemorial. In fact, Uttarakhand, parts of Himachal Pradesh and Nepal formed one country, duly recognised as such by the British-India rule. In 1815, by virtue of the Treaty of Sagauli signed between Nepal and British-India, Nepal had to cede Kumaon, Garhwal, today’s Himachal Pradesh, the Terai region and Sikkim-Darjeeling to British India. The Treaty of 1860 returned the Terai lowlands to Nepal. And then came the 1950 Treaty. Today, Nepal performs the role of service provider to India, especially to Indian defence, while Indians are largely business investors in Nepal. Top Indian industrial houses, such as Dabur and ITC, have substantial business presence in Nepal. The Nepali-speaking population in India comprises mainly of Indian Gorkhas (descendants of the Indian Gorkha regiment from the 19th century), India-domiciled Nepalese migrants, Nepali-speaking Indians of non-Nepalese descent and Nepalese citizens serving in India. The fourth is the only foreign category, but is still protected by Article 7 of the 1950 Treaty. The free flow of people between the two countries has created another problem. There are millions of people of Nepalese origin living in India for decades and vice versa, who do not posses either Indian or Nepali citizenship papers. They face dissolution of their property, non-grant of ration cards or even pensions, alongside the trauma of suddenly being categorised as illegal migrants. The introduction of the Muti-purpose National Identity Card (MNIC) by the UPA government in 2006 has made matters worse. The objective of this card is to increase national security, manage citizen identity and facilitate e-governance. In simple words, flush out infiltrators. This pilot project has been launched in 20 select infiltration-prone sub-districts of 13 states and Union Territories. The MNIC has led to bonafide Indian citizens being clubbed with other illegal migrants, especially because when MNIC was introduced, no details of the 1950 Treaty were provided to the various states. It is obvious that the 1950 Treaty, though still existent on paper, has ceased to be functional on the ground, leading to h arassment of vulnerable people by exploiters, land-grabbers, and politicians playing ethnic games. jyoti.thapa at abp.inThis email address is being protected from spam bots, you need Javascript enabled to view it (Businessworld 18-24 March 2008) From tapasrayx at gmail.com Mon Apr 27 01:12:00 2009 From: tapasrayx at gmail.com (Tapas Ray) Date: Sun, 26 Apr 2009 15:42:00 -0400 Subject: [Reader-list] Call for essays and book reviews In-Reply-To: <65be9bf40904260954l6c625b2by243b7b3dd0617b86@mail.gmail.com> References: <65be9bf40904260954l6c625b2by243b7b3dd0617b86@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <49F4B908.2020207@gmail.com> The Indian edition of the Global Media Journal (http://lass.calumet.purdue.edu/cca/gmj/) is being developed into a full-fledged online academic journal. It invites essays and book review* *for its forthcoming issue, the theme of which is "*Development Communication and Globalisation: Developing New Discourses"**.* Essays should have a minimum of 3,000 words *but should not exceed 5,000 words. Book reviews should not exceed 1,000 words. Submissions are required by May 10, 2009. Please email them to: Tapas Ray Guest Co-editor tapasrayx at gmail.com * From tapasrayx at gmail.com Mon Apr 27 01:21:23 2009 From: tapasrayx at gmail.com (Tapas Ray) Date: Sun, 26 Apr 2009 15:51:23 -0400 Subject: [Reader-list] Call for essays and book reviews Message-ID: <49F4BB3B.1010304@gmail.com> The Indian edition of the Global Media Journal (http://lass.calumet.purdue.edu/cca/gmj/) is being developed into a full-fledged online academic journal. It invites essays and book reviews for its forthcoming issue, the theme of which is "Development Communication and Globalisation: Developing New Discourses". Essays should have a minimum of 3,000 words but should not exceed 5,000 words. Book reviews should not exceed 1,000 words. Submissions are required by May 10, 2009. Please email them to: Tapas Ray Guest Co-editor tapasrayx at gmail.com From 2tahamehmood at googlemail.com Mon Apr 27 02:31:19 2009 From: 2tahamehmood at googlemail.com (Taha Mehmood) Date: Sun, 26 Apr 2009 22:01:19 +0100 Subject: [Reader-list] News Items posted on the net on Multipurpose National Identity Cards-110 Message-ID: <65be9bf40904261401k31655a23v12da1e8d36edc91e@mail.gmail.com> http://www.zdnetasia.com/blogs/insideindia/0,3800011235,63010301,00.htm How long will our politicians shy away from technology? Posted in Inside India by Swati Prasad on 2009/04/21 00:36:17 It is election time here in India, and there is not a dull moment on TV-–shoes are being hurled at some politician or the other; candidates are making offensive speeches and remarks, and there is always news about how many fake voter ID cards are being found in various constituencies. The great Indian political circus is in full swing. What's truly appalling is the fact that despite being the so-called "IT superpower", we haven't done enough to ensure that elections in the country are free and fair. The need to ensure free and fair elections is vital to democracy. Over the last few decades, corruption has made the middle-class cynical. As a result, many educated citizens don't vote. They are disillusioned with the political system and have no desire to know their political leaders. But this time, several corporate houses, NGOs and media groups are running campaigns to spread awareness and get citizens to exercise their right to vote. The government has been talking about a Multipurpose National Identity Card (MNIC) since 2002. MNIC is a national ID card (that will be given to every Indian citizen) that seeks to fulfill objectives of increasing national security, managing citizen identity and facilitating e-government services. But not much progress has taken place in this area. In November last year, the government finally issued a notification approving the establishment of a National Authority for Unique Identity (NAUID) under the Planning Commission. The MNIC project is now integrated with the NAUID project. As per a government release, the MNIC will obviate need for multiple documentary evidence, facilitate easy verification, facilitate ease in availing government or private services, help welfare programs reach intended beneficiaries and serve as a basis for e-government services. The government hopes to provide each citizen with a unique ID by 2012. But we all know how the system works--a lot of time will lapse between one notification and another, and there is bound to be ample debate on the subject before the project actually sees light of day. These elections, in my view, are rather critical. Bad governance at the Centre can take us back by many years. And that's why it's critical to work toward the MNIC, so that the next general elections (at least) are "more" free and fair. In this day and age, creating a central data of all citizens should not be that difficult. If there was sufficient political will, we would have acquired an MNIC by now. There are several Indian IT companies that have been lauded for their work in the area of e-government in other nations. Given a chance, I am sure they would do a better job in their home country. With time, technology is bound to play a much larger role in a democracy. Mobile telephony has already penetrated the remotest of villages in the country. With the advent of technologies like IPTV, 3G and WiMax, broadband too will reach the villages. I was reading an article recently about how voting by mobile devices could become a reality by 2012. Mobile voting was number one in a list of five mobile messaging predictions recently released by VeriSign's messaging and mobile media division. Used correctly, the mobile phone has enormous potential. Telecom operator Idea Cellular has some interesting advertisements that showcase the power of mobile telephony in areas like e-governance and e-education. In fact, technology can help the country do away with corruption and red-tape. Unfortunately, that's what our politicians seem to fear the most. But, I also feel that they cannot stop the advent of technology. Just as companies were forced to adopt IT solutions to improve efficiencies, sooner or later, the country will also feel the same need. An emerging economy and a "potential super power" surely can't do with another five years of corruption and political lethargy. From 2tahamehmood at googlemail.com Mon Apr 27 02:34:00 2009 From: 2tahamehmood at googlemail.com (Taha Mehmood) Date: Sun, 26 Apr 2009 22:04:00 +0100 Subject: [Reader-list] News Items posted on the net on Multipurpose National Identity Cards-111 Message-ID: <65be9bf40904261404j2243f22k932d7577d55cf5ad@mail.gmail.com> http://www.assamtribune.com/scripts/details.asp?id=apr0809/at04 PC ridicules BJP’s claim to tackle influx Spl Correspondent NEW DELHI, April 7 – Countering BJP’s tall claims on curbing illegal influx from Bangladesh within 100 days of coming to power, Union Home Minister, P Chidamabaram lampooned the notion, asserting that it was a long and hard task. Chidambaram on Tuesday questioned BJP’s claim that multi-purpose national identity card (MNIC) was its brain child, claiming instead that it was Rajiv Gandhi, whose government first started the pilot project in Rajasthan. “I cannot support such a statement that international border can be sealed within 100 days. The BJP was in power for six year and now it wants to do it in 100 days,” he said. Stating that it is a long and hard work, Union Home Minister said that Government of India has to work with Governments of Bangladesh and Myanmar. “I am not yet happy, we have to heighten our diplomatic efforts and we have to work with Bangladesh and Myanmar,” he said. The 17-page booklet released by the Union Home Minister, deals at length on the issue of MNIC, perhaps to set the record straight. The Congress-led UPA Government is implementing a clear Action plan on MNIC. L.K.Advani recently made a curious statement that the BJP will initiate the MNIC project if it comes to power in 2009 elections. This is a remarkable statement that demonstrate either ignorance and slumber or denial of facts.. The truth is that MNIC has forged ahead under the Congress-led UPA government, while the BJP has been in deep slumber. The concept of pilot project was drawn up in 2003, but it went into hibernation under the NDA Government and the implementation began only after UPA government came to office. The pilot project has since been implemented and 12 lakh identity cards have been delivered along with creation of data base of 24.64 lakh persons. Preparations for National Population Register along with Census of 2011 are underway, said the booklet. The booklet ‘Protecting India from terror’ deals with various aspect of internal security including long term police recruitment plans, filling vacancies in forces, setting up counter insurgency and anti-terrorism schools, a 100-day action plan, amongst others. From 2tahamehmood at googlemail.com Mon Apr 27 04:14:12 2009 From: 2tahamehmood at googlemail.com (Taha Mehmood) Date: Sun, 26 Apr 2009 23:44:12 +0100 Subject: [Reader-list] News Items posted on the net on Multipurpose National Identity Cards-112 Message-ID: <65be9bf40904261544x29092ceaiff1f4e34dd61ebc0@mail.gmail.com> Dear All, Below are two excerpts. One from an interview and the other from a report related to MNIC. The interview was given by Home Minister Chidambaram to Vishwa Mohan and Himanshi Dhawan of the Times of India. Wherein the minister answers a question related to MNIC. The excerpt below that relates to a Congress Party Document titled- 'Protecting India from Terror'. It was at the press conference called, for the launch of this document that a shoe was thrown at Mr. Chidambaram. Particularly with reference to the section on MNIC, I find two inconsistencies. First, relates to a claim by the Congress, that a National identity card was Rajiv Gandhi's idea. When we all know that the idea for such a card emerges from recommendation Chapter 5, of a GoM report presented during NDA's regime. The report was called Reforming the National Security System. The chapter-5 was titled Border Management. This Chapter was in fact written as per the submissions on Border Management, by the Task Force headed by Madhave Godbole. In Section 110, page 85, of the report, it is mentioned that- 'Illegal migration has assumed serious proportions. There should be compulsory registration of citizens and non-citizens living in India. This will facilitate preparation of a national register of citizens' All citizens should be given a *Multi-Purpose National Identity Card *(*MPNIC*) and non-citizens should be issued identity cards of a different color and design' Furthermore, Mr.Rajiv Gandhi died in 1991. And according to wiki entry on smart cards- 'Smart-card-based electronic purse systems (in which value is stored on the card chip, not in an externally recorded account, so that machines accepting the card need no network connectivity) were tried throughout Europe from the mid-1990s' ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Smart_card ) This is closest to the current technology of a smart identity card. I do not know how Mr. Gandhi could have imagined a smart card based national identity card before 1991. Perhaps, he was really ahead of his times as many senior netas of Congress Party would like us to believe. The second relates to a minor but significant wording of a sentence in the Congress's document 'Protecting India from Terror'. Before i quote the sentence, i just want to mention that, I do understand that this document is not a policy paper or a legal set of rules hence in real terms it may not have any bearing on the citizens as such, however, I would like to think that this document reflects the thinking which could be employed to think through policy and may be legal ideas related to MNIC. Therefore it is important to reflect on this statement. Consider this- 'Preparations for the National Population Register (NPR) along with the Census of 2011 are underway. Once the NPR is ready, MNICs will be issued to all usual residents.' ( p-8) MNIC will be 'issued to all usual residents'. I am not clear what does 'usual residents' refer to. Additionally could it mean all those who are usual non-residents, ( which might mean, the 300-400 million transient population ) may be denied the card or what about unusual residents (which might mean, genuine illegal immigrants who have genuine documents to prove they are 'Indians') or what about unusual nonresidents ( which might mean, all those who are on the move and yet invisible to state apparatus, like some 3,00,000 members of the Aravani community, who are transgenders and therefore do not come under any census because a census survey register there are only two entries for gender, you could either be a female or a male) You may click on the valid urls to follow the entire report or the interview. With warm regards Taha http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/articleshow/4415509.cms Q. Ambitious Multi-Purpose National Identity Card (MNIC) scheme is billed as one of the steps to keep tabs on infiltrators or illegal immigrants. But, the pace of the project is quite slow. A. It was a pilot project. We had to prove the concept. It was completed in March 2008. The period between April 2008 and March 2009 was the maintenance phase. That phase is also complete. Now the pilot has been proved. We have entrusted it to the Registrar General of India who is going to take it up. I have given a timeframe to all the coastal towns and villages as well as Andaman and Nicobar Islands for cards to be issued to all residents by 2009-2010. For the remainder in India, it will be done along with the National Population Register. So once the NPR is ready, side-by-side the cards will be issued. http://www.aicc.org.in/new/TERROR_ENGLISH.pdf Multi-Purpose National Identity Card (MNIC) project and National Population Register programme : The Congress-led UPA government is implementing a clear Action Plan for the issuance of Multi-Purpose National Identity Card (MNIC – Smart Card) to every Indian citizen. Shri L.K. Advani has recently made a curious announcement that the BJP will implement the MNIC project if it comes to power in the 2009 elections. This is a remarkable statement that demonstrates either ignorance and slumber or denial of facts. The truth is that the MNIC project has forged ahead under the Congress-led UPA government while the BJP has been in deep slumber. The ID card idea was the brainchild of Shri Rajiv Gandhi, whose government implemented the first pilot programme in this regard in Rajasthan. The concept of a pilot project was drawn up in 2003, but it went into hibernation under the NDA government, and the implementation began only after the UPA government came into office. The pilot project has since been implemented and it came to a close on 31.3.2008. 12 lakh Identity Cards have been delivered along with creation of a database of 24.64 lakh persons. A UID Authority of India (UIDAI) was established on 28.1.2009. Preparations for the National Population Register (NPR) along with the Census of 2011 are underway. Once the NPR is ready, MNICs will be issued to all usual residents. Meanwhile, having regard to the urgency of the matter, it has been decided to create the NPR of coastal villages/towns in 2009-10 and to issue cards to all usual residents in these coastal villages/towns as well as in the whole of Andaman&Nicobar Islands. From subuhimjiwani at yahoo.com Mon Apr 27 09:56:22 2009 From: subuhimjiwani at yahoo.com (Subuhi Jiwani) Date: Sun, 26 Apr 2009 21:26:22 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Reader-list] How Mumbai Mirror broke the law Message-ID: <301810.89685.qm@web51301.mail.re2.yahoo.com> Dear all, I thought I would share with you a very informative piece written by human rights activist, lawyer and TISS faculty member Monica Sakhrani. It talks about how Mumbai Mirror broke the law by publishing the FIR of the TISS student who was gang raped. Apologies for cross posting. Please distribute widely. Subuhi http://loudandproudbombay.wordpress.com/2009/04/26/free-speech-and-breach-of-privacy/ Free Speech and Breach of Privacy The furore over the publication of the FIR in the TISS rape case has led to the raising of the issues as to the limits of free speech and press freedom. The other issue that has come up is whether the press has the right to publish a “public document”, the presumption being that all public documents are in the public domain. This piece seeks to answer as to why is not so. From pawan.durani at gmail.com Mon Apr 27 11:31:03 2009 From: pawan.durani at gmail.com (Pawan Durani) Date: Mon, 27 Apr 2009 11:31:03 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Padi Samyik - A Treatise Message-ID: <6b79f1a70904262301l96f16d4pdb88c8b3ea2d39f@mail.gmail.com> *Padi Samyik - **A Treatise*** *By MK Raina*** *"I feel the instinctive vibration of the earth and visualise my 'connect' with the terra-firma', *said MF Hussain once, when asked, 'why does he walk bare-footed? After reading Majboor Saheb's book *'Padi Samyik', *I feel he has laid his *'padi' *(bare feet) firmly on the eons of Kashmir history in a unique manner, demonstrating amply his 'innate vibrations' and his 'inalienable connect' with his mother-land, Kasheer. Medium of expression may be different but, euphemistically speaking the inspiration is the same. *'Padi Samyik'* (The foot prints of time) is a *'Kaveya' *written in nine Sargas (chapters). It starts with the turmoil in Kashmir and goes into imaginary world to trace the early days of the man in Kashmir. The two characters which narrate the whole 'longer' poem are Sangur (The top of a hill) and the Sangarmal (The early Prakasha seen in wee hours of the day on the circular range of high mountains surrounding the Valley. The characters meet at a crystal clean vast spring. They begin to love each other and make their home under a very big stone, which covers their house hold. They get the experience of living from the nature, their hands and brain. Once the *'Sangur' *goes to a forest for hunting, he is caught by some alien Tribal people. They beat him up and keep him in custody for the night. His beloved is frightened when her lover does not return till late. She weeps and wails. In the morning *"Sangur" *is taken to the Sardar of the tribe. He falls under his feat and requests him not to kill him, moreover he has done no harm to them. He is released and runs to his beloved. She is full of joy when she sees him alive. After that comes the story of birth of Kashmir Valley - Running of various rivers, settlements in the hilly areas, Coming of various people to Kashmirfrom Central Asia and Aryans from the Ganges and Sindh Valleys. There are about nine capitals of Kashmir which were constructed by various kings. These are Puranadisthan (now Pandrenthan), Pravarpur, Shrinagri (Shri is the first name of Vitasta), Awantipur, Nowshahar, Nagarnagar, Inderkoot, and Parihaspur. These have been described briefly. The main historic places have been pinpointed. Coming of various religions, philosophies and there mixing has been poetically described. Last chapters describe the beauty of various bountiful seasons of Kashmir, especially the glow, breeze and abundance of self-grown flowers in spring. Coming of visitors in summer season which too is pleasant and attractive. All the famous fairs and some festivals during these seasons have also been picturized. The Autumn is covered with golden colour, the fields are ripe, the red colour and sweet juice seen in various fruits of Kashmir. The Valley presents a look like a queen having decorated her body with various ornaments. The winter of Kashmir too has its own colour and charm. The life in Kashmirduring winter has been pictured with words which give a poetic colour to the nicities and difficulties of this season. In the end the poet says that in the words of keats "when the winter comes, can spring be far behind.” The versification of *'Padi Samyik' *is embellished with the vignettes of similes, onomatopoeic, metaphors, alliterations and above all free-flowing usage of 'personification', which not only 'elevates the thought-process, but also lends grace and sublimity to the content. The sensitive poet has used his wordplay in weaving the fabric of various patterns of Kashmir, presenting a Kaleidoscopic picture of the Valley. *thokmut, tshyonmut, sangrav rochhmut* *akh lolu hota pev vatith ot* *dalas manz balu thang vathimut chhi shranas* *kulev volmut sabuz vardan chhu panas* * * *shod saph sarah akh son dyuthun* *mudyah kamas tay prazunovun* *bihith singasanas badnas valith tos* *karan os razusi gatul sethah os* As a chronicler Majboor Saheb has traced the history of Satisar (Kashmir) from the 'Treaty between Nagas and Pishachas' in the prehistoric times, as documented in the 'Neelmat Purana'. Then he menders us through the annals of our history unfolding the noble and the wicked, the munificent and the treacherous, the tolerant and the bigoted, the liberal and the illiberal reign of the rulers of the host of dynasties which ruled Kashmir from time to time. One could, perhaps, read Kalhan, Hassan or Bamzai to delve into the chronicle records of Kashmir. But the peculiarity of Majboor Saheb's *'Padi Samyik' *(history of Kashmir) is that he touches such topics, which historians either skip or treat superficially; like rites, rituals, vegetables (common then, forgotten now like sotsal, nunar, lisu, hak), costumes and crops etc. Talking about the costumes, one knows that women of Kashmir have all along been presented wearing the Muslim costume. Here is some one, who has potrayed sartorially elegant costume of Panditani: zananan ari taranga sheri asan *kalas kalposh, anzul zuj shuban* *saraph chale timan putsah avezan* * * *pheran nalas khoran pulhar lagan* *hatis hanzrah, hale lungyah zabar jan* *bilay achh asu tihunzay zun zotan* How can one forget savouring *'makayi vachi' *with *'dungoji'?* *pinglah, sholah, makayah mith katsah* *vachen mechhar tu pal pal dun gujah* Post-exodus many a poet have given vent to the poignancy they suffered in the *'tandav' *of militancy, but Majboor Saheb's anguish at the 'demonic dance' unleashed by the militants has lacerated his sensitive soul that every verse of the first *'Sarag' *of his book *'Padi Samyik' *is 'sigh and cry'. The poet's deep pain is unplugged at the turn of the events which has ravaged his beloved *'Kasheer', *with fire and sword. Enveloped by the fear-psychosis, Majboor recounts how people, nearly paralysed, turned mute spectators on seeing spectre of destruction all around. He seems particularly appalled at the apathetic attitude of neighbours, who till yestreday were his concomitants and swore by each other. Dismayed and shaken, he could not bear the emotional distress of mass exodus of his community members who were compelled to abandon their homes and hearths and seek refuge in alien and inhospitable land. He sighed: *garuch vath sopnu mayaye chhi garan* *panun olah vopar jayan chhi tsharan* Being peace-loving by nature, Majboor Saheb has given more space to the tolerant Brahminical thought and influence of benevolent Muslim preceptors who arrived in Kashmir in early 14th Century, which gave birth to much envied synergy now called 'Kashmiriyat': *reshav sophev revayath thav kayim* *rutsar prath kansi kanchhun rud lazim* Even after the perdition that shook Kashmir, the optimistic streak of Majboor Saheb looks solicitously for peace and harmony to return to his *'resh var' *and he makes 'Biblical' wish 'follow peace with all men' and entreats people thus: *kariv kanh pay yinu gatshi ha yi resh var* *me nazran dag azabas lusmuts kar* Majboor Saheb is thoroughly disgusted with post independence dispensation of governance. He thought, with independence all the wounds inficted upon us by the various regimes would be healed by our own democratically elected government, but alas! *khabar asi as gayi azad sari * *gulami hund balan von dad sari* *ama tarze hakumath kyazi pronuy* *andur kin tshots nebur kyah nundubonuy* Denoucing, the games played by the politicians, as a scourge of the society, the poet laments: *agar zar chhuy tu teli mushkil gatshi hal* *pakan kakaz hava bar zore botal* *chhu asan val sund prath kanh gulamah* *chhe ma khali athav neran kamah* Cursing even now prevalent corruption in all the walks of life, the poet sighs: *siyasatuken dukanan phand bazi* *chhi hathiyaran hevan az kam sari* *dyutukh naru tu mulkas chhuy lagan nar* *phakath votuk tsovapari chhu bapar* Majboor Saheb feels that he is really helpless (*majboor) *to live in an alien land, for he misses the snow-capped mountains, rustle of the chinars, the sheen of turquoise lakes, the fragrance of *'bradmushk *and *'yamburzal' *the mouth-watering viands of his Kasheer and above all his social intercourse with his friends of yore. What a regret to live with! *'Padi Samyik' *is a book for all times and for ages - for the contemporaneous to evoke their nostalgia and for the posterity to know their roots. * * **The author is a well-known writer, based in Mumbai. He contributes regularly to Milchar, the publication of Kashmiri Pandit Association, Mumbai. He has also authored an anthology of short stories - Kenh Non Kenh Son.* ** Source: Kashmir Sentinel From rajen882uppinangadi at gmail.com Mon Apr 27 13:58:37 2009 From: rajen882uppinangadi at gmail.com (Rajen Uppinangadi) Date: Mon, 27 Apr 2009 13:58:37 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Modi bashing is secularism.! Message-ID: <61164a90904270128w4815656j8108708c193ab6c5@mail.gmail.com> Dear Taha, I very much appreciate your scholarly works in MNIC cards, on issues raised by you on the issuance of these cards, amount of hard work and efforts put into dig the information and enlighten the readers of the same. But human prejudice at play when it comes to talks about Narendra Modi, is my perception, that you seem to have in very big quantity.. Unlike some other leaders of 1984 riots, he did not lead the mobs to riots, he did not visit police stations to get the release of detained rioters, but many blacksheep in media became celebrities by Modi bashing day in and day out, some even got Padma awards for sycophancy of Sonia with Modi bashings. The truth of the matter is Modi being the chief minister, ordered firing bullets at the rioters, irrespective of the faith, they belonged to, and worst, over 200 who died were hindus by bullets of the police as against 93 muslims. That should put at rest the individuals like Theesta who has brief for rioters and terror accused if they are muslims.? But no, the media went on showing the riotsfootage from archives file display time and again at the time of elections, perhaps thinking that voter is too naive, too ignorant of the strings that are being pulled in media houses. Thus the more the vitriolic media, more votes for BJP, which is branded communal just as Tarun Gogoi had deals with a Attarwala to be in power, Owaisi in "understanding" with Congress, thus proving the point that all those who talk of secularism have different yardstick to measure the "secularism" in vote banks of politics. In free India, where rule of laws have to be uniform, the rioters if are from "minority" always got the benefits of being in riots from Congress,whether as eioters or as victims, with MP and or MLA tickets, Gulberg MP was no exception.Jaffer Sharieff in Bangalore is good example of how to breed riots with unemployed youth of the community. Unfortunately all these have seen poetic justice as they live longer than their progeny and suffer most with loss of their loved ones in front of their eyes. Hariprasad, rowdy sheeter of karnataka is the MP who as student leader has enough cases against him of heinous crimes, all washed away once he became MP. All parties have their share of "metal" to cut metal in other parties. But to generalise Modi and have prejudiced view of good governance is not exactly expected of citizens. Modi, true to his oath of office, took action without fear or favour, withiut any favour to any sections of the society, unlike Congress which always gave compensation to victims if they were from one community, as other individuals were too divided to fight for any rights.IN the past 62 years of rule, the citizens have seen the role of Congress and its secular credentials too well, and left parties which had some credibilty, have also lost this, with their recent behaviour in West Bengal for Tasleema, with madani in Kerala, with land scams for industries. Basic issue here is in democratic governance, religion has no place to pamper the individuals of any faith, if one political party has such tendency it is congress and others have to match to survive in politics which is bad for democracy. Day in day out we saw the english visual media pull out archived footage of riots to please Congress and atleast in every half an hour this was repeated as if the riots had taken place in Gujarath only, and where muslims were rioting such footage was shelved for good.! I wish the media had also shown the zombies who come out on fridays after prayers, intoxicated by hate from the speeches of the mullas, destry the public properties, hurl stones at public transport and injure innocents. Then, only then, the likes of Jaffer sharieff and Owaisi would not dare to have guns in their college campuses run by them. Will ever media do it.? It needs lots of courage and self belief in democracy as these men and women in media are more keen on their bloated egos, their painted faces and shaved underarms, revealing cleavages on tv shows, with the type of designer wear they wear as. celebrities. ! Regards, Rajen. From rajen882uppinangadi at gmail.com Mon Apr 27 14:02:16 2009 From: rajen882uppinangadi at gmail.com (Rajen Uppinangadi) Date: Mon, 27 Apr 2009 14:02:16 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Socialism and capitalism. Message-ID: <61164a90904270132k48d5a359nc66f165e3b8439e3@mail.gmail.com> Socialism distributes poverty equally, capitalism allows few to have their capital and grow on it.? Regards, Rajen. From bangalorefilmsociety at gmail.com Mon Apr 27 14:36:50 2009 From: bangalorefilmsociety at gmail.com (Bangalore Film Society ,) Date: Mon, 27 Apr 2009 14:36:50 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Voices from the Waters 2009: Call for Entries In-Reply-To: <8be9a7ad0904192345n33b2633dv4863ec8ce6288a10@mail.gmail.com> References: <8be9a7ad0904192338r246028d4reba7011997c17a8f@mail.gmail.com> <8be9a7ad0904192343n6b2e26b2kb0eb9f8d6aa54a8c@mail.gmail.com> <8be9a7ad0904192345n33b2633dv4863ec8ce6288a10@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: *Call For Entries* *Voices from the Waters 2009* *4th International Water Film Festival, Bangalore* * * Bangalore Film Society, Arghyam- safe, sustainablle water for all, Svaraj- Society for Voluntary Action Revitalization and Justice, Finger Lakes Environmental Film Festival, Ithaca College, USA (FLEFF) Mountainfilm in Telluride, USA, Alliance Francaise de Bangalore, Charter of Human Responsibilities and Water Journeys - Campaign for Fundamental Right to Water with the support of Max Mueller Bhavan, Bangalore are organizing the fourth edition of the biggest international film festival on water- Voices from the Waters 2009 from Friday 4th September, 2009 to Monday 7thSeptember, 2009. Established in 2005 to promote among the public an awareness of the myriad water-issues affecting our everyday lives either directly or indirectly and as a platform for alternate voices and views rarely heard in mainstream, Voices from the Waters started as a Bangalore-based Environmental Film Festival and over the 2007 and 2008 editions grew to be one of the largest, most diverse and dynamic platforms of debate, dialogue and celebration of the precious resource, the blue gold, life itself - water. We invite you to be a part of the festival by contributing short, documentary, animation and feature films (DVD format only) with English subtitles on water and related issues. *If you have a film in under any of the following categories:* 1. Water Scarcity, 2. The Dams and the Displaced, 3. Water Harvest, 4. Water Struggles/conflicts, 5. Floods and Droughts, 6. Global Warming and Climate Change, 7. Impact of Deforestation on Water Bodies, 8. Water, Sanitation and health, 9. River Pollution, 10. The Holistic Revival of Water Bodies, 11. Water and Life You can consider sending it to us. Please note that the categories are loosely conceived and your film does not have to necessarily adhere to them while focusing on the larger theme of water. Please find the entry form at www.voicesfromthewaters.com *Submission Deadline: 31st July 2009* *Guidelines:* Entries to the Film Festival must include 1. DVD of the film (with English subtitles, if required) 2. A completed and signed copy of the entry form 3. 3 high-resolution stills of the film (can be sent via email) 4. A high-resolution photograph of the director (can be sent via email) Promotional materials are welcome. There is no entry fee. All submitted films will be subject to a selection process by eminent members of the festival jury. Applicant must pay for shipment of films to Voices from the Waters. Submitted films will not be returned but will be part of Voices from the Waters library, one of the largest resources in the world for films on water. Voices from the Waters is conceived as a traveling film festival. The selected films after being premiered in Bangalore at the main event will be taken across to educational institutions, non governmental organizations, small towns and villages across India. From kmvenuannur at gmail.com Mon Apr 27 15:23:27 2009 From: kmvenuannur at gmail.com (Venugopalan K M) Date: Mon, 27 Apr 2009 15:23:27 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Modi bashing is secularism.! In-Reply-To: <1f9180970904270252t55262bbes8f07aabe7a43c89e@mail.gmail.com> References: <61164a90904270128w4815656j8108708c193ab6c5@mail.gmail.com> <1f9180970904270252t55262bbes8f07aabe7a43c89e@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <1f9180970904270253y45d2df62sb3dab0ba89f66296@mail.gmail.com> On Mon, Apr 27, 2009 at 3:22 PM, Venugopalan K M wrote: > Dear Rajen, > > What would you say about the 'expose' in Tehelka, where Modi > administration's role in denying protection even to an ex-MP despite > repeated SOS calls in the crucial hour of chaos was much obvious ? > (You need that for reference? I can post it to the list even, let me check > if it is readily available ) > If you are interested, please go through those innumerable reports and > links suggesting what was the role of Modi and the sub human hordes who let > loose terror against Muslims everywhere in Gujarat. > When you claim that as many as 200 Hindus were killed in the police > firing in the effort of Modi admn to quell the riotous mobs vis vis just > 90+ Muslims, what sort of thing are you trying to establish in favour of > Mr.Modi? > Even if your figures pointing to the Hindu casualty were accepted as true, > Modi is by no means exonerated in his role in having instigated people to > communal violence under the pretext of Godhra- which is made out to be a > 'terrorist attack against karsevaks' by Muslims. There have been two enquiry > reports contradicting each other in the finding; neither a detailed forensic > examination of the ill fated (gutted)coach , nor elucidation of the exact > identities of people affected by the fire had been made possible, as far as > I understand. > (Please correct me if I am going wrong as to the details...but I am > convinced that I am not wrong in saying that the BJP and Narendra Modi still > want to propagate politics of hate and they repent least in having permitted > or caused to believe people of Hindu community that killing of Muslims is > revenge to Godhra and the former could do it with impunity! > Regards, > Venu. > > > Why were the identities of 'karsevaks' who were said to be travelling in > the ill fated coach of Sabarmati Express never revealed by the > administration > > > > On Mon, Apr 27, 2009 at 1:58 PM, Rajen Uppinangadi < > rajen882uppinangadi at gmail.com> wrote: > >> Dear Taha, >> >> I very much appreciate your scholarly works in MNIC cards, on issues >> raised by you on the issuance of these cards, amount of hard work and >> efforts put into dig the information and enlighten the readers of the >> same. >> >> But human prejudice at play when it comes to talks about Narendra Modi, >> is >> my perception, that you seem to have in very big quantity.. Unlike some >> other leaders of 1984 riots, he did not lead the mobs to riots, he did not >> visit police stations to get the release of detained rioters, but many >> blacksheep in media became celebrities by Modi bashing day in and day out, >> some even got Padma awards for sycophancy of Sonia with Modi bashings. >> >> The truth of the matter is Modi being the chief minister, ordered firing >> bullets at the rioters, irrespective of the faith, they belonged to, and >> worst, over 200 who died were hindus by bullets of the police as against >> 93 >> muslims. That should put at rest the individuals like Theesta who has >> brief >> for rioters and terror accused if they are muslims.? But no, the media >> went >> on showing the riotsfootage from archives file display time and again at >> the >> time of elections, perhaps thinking that voter is too naive, too ignorant >> of >> the strings that are being pulled in media houses. Thus the more the >> vitriolic media, more votes for BJP, which is branded communal just as >> Tarun >> Gogoi had deals with a Attarwala to be in power, Owaisi in "understanding" >> with Congress, thus proving the point that all those who talk of >> secularism >> have different yardstick to measure the "secularism" in vote banks of >> politics. >> >> In free India, where rule of laws have to be uniform, the rioters if are >> from "minority" always got the benefits of being in riots from >> Congress,whether as eioters or as victims, with MP and or MLA tickets, >> Gulberg MP was no exception.Jaffer Sharieff in Bangalore is good example >> of >> how to breed riots with unemployed youth of the community. Unfortunately >> all >> these have seen poetic justice as they live longer than their progeny and >> suffer most with loss of their loved ones in front of their eyes. >> Hariprasad, rowdy sheeter of karnataka is the MP who as student leader has >> enough cases against him of heinous crimes, all washed away once he became >> MP. All parties have their share of "metal" to cut metal in other parties. >> But to generalise Modi and have prejudiced view of good governance is not >> exactly expected of citizens. Modi, true to his oath of office, took >> action >> without fear or favour, withiut any favour to any sections of the society, >> unlike Congress which always gave compensation to victims if they were >> from >> one community, as other individuals were too divided to fight for any >> rights.IN the past 62 years of rule, the citizens have seen the role of >> Congress and its secular credentials too well, and left parties which had >> some credibilty, have also lost this, with their recent behaviour in West >> Bengal for Tasleema, with madani in Kerala, with land scams for >> industries. >> >> >> >> Basic issue here is in democratic governance, religion has no place to >> pamper the individuals of any faith, if one political party has such >> tendency it is congress and others have to match to survive in politics >> which is bad for democracy. >> >> Day in day out we saw the english visual media pull out archived footage >> of >> riots to please Congress and atleast in every half an hour this was >> repeated >> as if the riots had taken place in Gujarath only, and where muslims were >> rioting such footage was shelved for good.! I wish the media had also >> shown >> the zombies who come out on fridays after prayers, intoxicated by hate >> from >> the speeches of the mullas, destry the public properties, hurl stones at >> public transport and injure innocents. Then, only then, the likes of >> Jaffer >> sharieff and Owaisi would not dare to have guns in their college campuses >> run by them. >> >> Will ever media do it.? It needs lots of courage and self belief in >> democracy as these men and women in media are more keen on their bloated >> egos, their painted faces and shaved underarms, revealing cleavages on tv >> shows, with the type of designer wear they wear as. celebrities. ! >> >> >> Regards, >> >> Rajen. >> _________________________________________ >> reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. >> Critiques & Collaborations >> To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with >> subscribe in the subject header. >> To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list >> List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> > > > > > -- > http://venukm.blogspot.com/ > -- http://venukm.blogspot.com/ From 2tahamehmood at googlemail.com Mon Apr 27 16:18:50 2009 From: 2tahamehmood at googlemail.com (Taha Mehmood) Date: Mon, 27 Apr 2009 11:48:50 +0100 Subject: [Reader-list] Modi bashing is secular? Some unresolved dilemmas Message-ID: <65be9bf40904270348k40a13e06w58ed4f22e8140cf6@mail.gmail.com> Dear Rajen, As I have mentioned earlier that since the matter is sub-judice, therefore I would not like to comment on it. However, since you claim to know more about Narender bhai Damodar Modi jee, I was wondering whether you could help me with a pressing dilemma. I chanced upon these jewels (pasted below) from Modi jee and I was wondering whether the quotes attributed below are indeed his, because I am unable to form an opinion, could you help me in this regard? For instance, the date of last quote is written as August 1946, I am sure our Modi jee would not have uttered those lines then. I would be grateful, if you could read them and guide me in the 'right' direction. With warm regards Taha http://hindumuslimindia.blogspot.com/ Narendra Modi's Little Saffron Book [The following are excerpts from the soon-to-be-published The Little Saffron Book. This condensed collection of Narendra Modi quotes - taken from his speeches, interviews and books - has an introduction by L K Advani] "Hindus of Gujarat, unite and defeat the Mussalmaan Mullahs and all their four wives! Hindus of Gujarat, be courageous, and dare to fight, be brave, and defy decency and humanity; advance wave upon wave like Ravan's rakshasas. Then the whole Gujarat will belong to Hindus. Mussalmaans of all kinds shall be destroyed." Statement Supporting the Municipality of the Vadodara City Against the Muslim Aggression (May 5, 2006). "The richest source of power to wage war lies in the masses of Hindus. It is mainly because of the submissive state of the Hindus that Mussalmaans dare to bully us. When this defect is remedied, then the Mullah aggressor, like a mad bull crashing into a ring of flames, will be surrounded by hundreds of millions of our people standing upright, the mere sound of their voices will strike terror into him, and the Mullah will be burned to death." On Planned Riots (May 2003), Selected Works, Vol. II, p. 186. "What is a true bastion of Shakti? It is the Indian masses, the millions upon millions of people who genuinely and sincerely support Hindutva. That is the real Shakti, which is impossible for any force on earth to smash. The Aamir Khans of the world cannot smash us; on the contrary, we shall smash them. Rallying millions upon millions of people round my government and expanding our holy war, we shall wipe out all the pseudo-secularists and take over the whole of India." Excerpt of a Speech Made on the Successful, Complete and Absolute Conclusion of a Ban on the Film Fanaa in the Theatres of Gujarat (May 28, 2006). "The secularists are bullying us in such a way that we will have to deal with them seriously. Not only must we have a powerful, regular and a more violent Bajrang Dal, we must also organize contingents of the ladies-only Durga Vahini on a big scale. This will make it difficult for the secularists to move a single inch in our Gujarat in case of an anti-Mussalmaan genocide, an event which is not very far." Interview with the Saamna Newspaper (September 29, 2004). "Without preparedness, a communal riot is not a real pogrom and there can be no final solution either. Having grasped this point, it is good to remember that while making a list of Mians and their Begums in their across-the-'border' Pakistani mohallas, care must be taken to accomplish the task without attracting much notice. The dogs must not be warned of their terrible ends." Strategies for Genocides and Other Experiments in Rwanda (May 1938), Selected Works, Vol. II, pp. 165-66. "The communal riot is a war of the Hindus; it can be successfully waged only after enlisting the support of the police force and relying on them to wage it." Be Concerned with the Manipulation of the Masses, Pay Attention to Methods of Murder (January 27, 2002), Selected Works, Vol. I. p. 147. "Democracy is one of the ways to be cleverly employed and manipulated to struggle for a just, absolute, pure Mussalmaan-less society." Talk with Prabhu Chawala in Seedhi Baat, Aaj Tak TV Channel (August 2004). "The Bhartiya Janata Party of Gujarat, having made a clear-headed appraisal of the national and state-level situation on the basis of the science of Nazism-Fascism, recognized that all attacks on the non-Hindus in Gujarat have to be launched in the shortest possible time. If some Mussalmaans still have guts to live here with their countless hordes, we only have to stop doing any dealings with them." The Present Situation and Our Tasks (December 25, 1997), Selected Shakha Writings, 2nd ed., p. 347. "If a single Mussalmaan attack us and if the conditions are favorable for battle, we will certainly act in self-defense to wipe him off and all the people of his wretched community resolutely, thoroughly, wholly and completely (we do not strike rashly, but when we do strike, we must win). We must never be cowed by the bluster of English-speaking secularists.." On Peace Negotiations with Pakistan - Circular of the Central Committee of the Bhartiya Janata Party of Gujarat (August 26, 2001) "As far as the massacre of Hindus by terrorists in Kashmir is concerned, those Islamic militants, in spite of belonging to the enemy civilization, are like our brothers-in-arms. They provide us an opportunity, reason, and excuse to kill the Maulavis of Ahmedabad." Talk with the Harvard University Proffessor Samuel Phillips Huntington (August 1946), Foreign Affairs Magazine From indersalim at gmail.com Mon Apr 27 22:14:25 2009 From: indersalim at gmail.com (Inder Salim) Date: Mon, 27 Apr 2009 22:14:25 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] The Mango Tree Message-ID: <47e122a70904270944x5e96e1e0n3a37551bd447ae63@mail.gmail.com> -- THE MANGO TREE The centre of the universe is not the place where I am standing, but the Mango Tree in front of my balcony. But because of different seasons its centre of importance shifts, particularly when there are no mangoes on its branches. Almost a decade back, when I shifted into my flat, there was no such tree over there, but indeed a structure conducive for the growth of a Mango Tree, or any other tree, was always there. This space where these small and big trees exist belongs to the entire colony, a public space, where people relish their evening strolls, or let their children jump a little, and also scatter biscuit and chocolate wrapper around, carelessly. The Trees are mostly non-fruity ones, so everything is cool, except this Mango Tree. Right now, the entire colony is talking about this mango tree, but the flats which are directly facing this mango tree are constantly thinking about it. I am also looking at the mango tree, but among other things, what puzzles me is the question why the tree gives birth to hundreds of mangoes when it does not want its entire crop to grow? As I notice some little green mangoes keep on falling on the earth, naturally. Why? It fascinates me. This is perhaps, what we call mysteries of the nature, so no need to interfere or worry on that account. But still there are plenty of mangoes on the tree, and everybody is silently looking at them, who simply want to eat them. But there is some helplessness in their looking at them. The reason for this is that the 70-G-wallay (family living in the Ground floor) happened to water this mango tree sometimes , and now they have the birth right to harvest the entire crop of this tree. True, I am witness to that, but I doubt if they actually had planted the tree. I believe, somebody had carelessly thrown a mango kernel into the park which has given birth to this controversial tree. The 70-F-wallay, 70-S- wallay, and 70-T-wallay (families living in First, Second and Top floor) feel that they too have the right to eat some mangoes. These families live closer to this tree, but other families which are facing it too have the similar desire but, I guess the intensity of the desire to eat these mangoes is directly proportional to the distance of the eyes that are looking at this mango tree. The trouble is that the 70-G-wallay leave no stone unturned to ensure that the mango tree is under their control during the crop time. They don’t even let a singing bulbul, or a peaceful dove, let alone stray colony monkeys to come near this mango tree. They use all the ways and means to keep the other away from the reach of this tree. They must have even counted the number of mangoes on the tree which are still unripe, quite green but distinguishable from the green of its foliage. The 70-G-wallay are Baniyas (the traditional business community) and hence have a natural tendency to think about their personal benefits only. I must say, with some confidence, that such families are the predecessor families of the entire world capitalism, like monkey is known as the predecessor of the man. A limited thought, but business is usually created to be inherited by their successors, usually sons. So, there is a tradition, to own the factory, an orchid, an oil well etc. Right now, here in this colony, there are people who want the entire mango tree to be felled since they don’t get their share of mangoes, but there are people who are content with the idea of a tree alone. Although, the later category of people are quite in minority but they are happy that there is a place for a dove to make a nest, or twig for a squirrel to jump from this tree to another tree. Yes, some children from outside, say from other underprivileged families, whom I guess have never tasted a mango in their life, do come and try to steal a mango or two from this tree by throwing a stone or a small stick. The 70-G-Wallay quickly come out from their flat and use all kinds of popular vernacular to chase them away. The rest of families again remain silent, who otherwise would not like these outside children to venture into the protected colony, where I too happen to own a flat. The result is that every year, the 70-G-wallay harvest the unripe crop lest it might be shared or stolen by others. The entire unripe-unripe crop is harvested, because the fear of losing the crop intensifies with the passing of each day, which is just good enough for ordinary pickle at the best. The real mangos never see the light of the day. I don’t about the whole world, but in India, the nature of business is such that the entire crop of Mangoes is usually plucked from the branches while it is still growing, still green. The golden fruit becomes golden only in the dark rooms of Mandi (Fruit markets) where they are dumped for couple of days, or weeks, to hit the stalls on the very day they turn golden, golden red or golden green. Who knows if some chemicals are injected into the mangoes to give them a more golden look, or make turn them even tastier? After all we are lured by products which are masked, glossed, either on TV, cinema, or in the Malls, or in the life directly. After all, the idea of mango is usually smarter than the actual mango. But there are spaces where Mangoes are allowed to turn golden on the trees itself, and subsequently relished with their maximum sugar and vitamin levels. But, as we know that is outside the structure of business and people like 70-G-wallay don’t have a clue about that. So, has anybody ever tasted a real mango? The question is that there is just one mango tree, and thousands of eyes on its couple of hundred odd mangoes on the tree. Right now, the people like 70-G-wallay who control the production of plant don’t let the mangos grow naturally. So they too have not tasted a mango, and neither let others to taste a real ripe one. So has anybody tasted a real mango, if there is one, and if yes, who deserves to eat that, and relish? please press to see mangoes http://pics.livejournal.com/indersalim/pic/000hz44h/ With love Inder salim http://indersalim.livejournal.com From sub_sengupta at yahoo.co.in Mon Apr 27 23:01:21 2009 From: sub_sengupta at yahoo.co.in (subhrodip sengupta) Date: Mon, 27 Apr 2009 23:01:21 +0530 (IST) Subject: [Reader-list] what can be done to boost employment in this global meltdown? Message-ID: <778359.90009.qm@web94712.mail.in2.yahoo.com> Yes, this spectre of unemployment or unique oppurtunity to the social scientist has left the coloums of the newspaper, leaped from the business channel, previously everybody who knew I was an Economics major used to ask me this same irritating question,about the Great Indian Recession, though I couldn't figure out anything great with hospitality guys losing job, or foriegners their wieghtage, admittedly for authenticity,lest of of our teachers have shared their concerns with us, though there is nothing irritating about blind campaigning, there is indeed something funny in repeating the same things without Undestanding----'DO OR DIE--PARO KIMBA MORO'. But now Something even better happened. Somehow the fever overshot in the paper-setters brain and unwired it. (S)he sets the ball rolling in an unlikely Venue, the examination hall, University of Delhi, part2, Macroeconomics, Suggest some measures to improve employment (& investment are 2 things) in this Global-meltdown, thank god not India needless to say, I read, 'Repeat'! Ok, leaving too much of idiosyncracies behind, lest it worry my reader even more, as if being constantly reminded of loosing the job is not bad Enough, I would like to set the ball rolling, suggest, give some Ideas, let some honest debate take place, Off course U might state the Vada-Pao joke, but let not the emotions sway into our recent over heat. What measure has India taken which is more Remarkable than the US. or are both equally despicable? Lets start. I'll join in off course, coz I find somewhat interest in this idea, dont acuse me if you guess the summer has unwired my brains, studying 1 year's course in a day or two (definitely 3 months if not an year's) could have done some damage, but I do not hurt others. Let's start rolling. Recession in India. From Chandigarh to Chennai - find friends all over India. Go to http://in.promos.yahoo.com/groups/citygroups/ From 2tahamehmood at googlemail.com Mon Apr 27 23:21:56 2009 From: 2tahamehmood at googlemail.com (Taha Mehmood) Date: Mon, 27 Apr 2009 18:51:56 +0100 Subject: [Reader-list] MNIC: Parliament Questions - 6 Message-ID: <65be9bf40904271051n2ea30b4w4bc3e806a5da62cb@mail.gmail.com> http://164.100.47.132/psearch/QResult13.aspx?qref=3601 GOVERNMENT OF INDIA MINISTRY OF LAW , JUSTICE AND COMPANY AFFAIRS LOK SABHA UNSTARRED QUESTION NO 3577 ANSWERED ON 17.04.2000 IDENTITY CARDS TO VOTERS 3577 . Shri KIRIT SOMAIYA AJAY SINGH CHAUTALA (a) whether the Election Commission of India has requested the Government to make arrangements for issuance of identity card to all voters in the country; (b) if so, the names of the States where the voters identity cards have been issued to all the voters till December, 1999; (c) the details of those States where production of identity cards were made mandatory for casting votes in the elections held in February, 2000 along with the basis on which such a decision was taken; (d) whether the Government of Haryana has issues identity cards to all its voters; (e) if so, the details of those States which have expressed their inabilities to do so; (f) the reaction of the Union Government thereto; and (g) the steps taken/proposed to be taken by the Government to implement the orders of the Election Commission And casting the votes on the basis of identity card will be made mandatory in each State? ANSWER MINISTER OF STATE FOR LAW, JUSTICE & COMPANY AFFAIRS (SHRI O. RAJAGOPAL) (a) Yes, Sir. (b) Photo Identity cards have not yet been issued to all electors in the country. About thirty-eight crore electors representing 62% of the eligible electors of the country have so far been provided Photo Identity Cards. The scheme has so far not been extended to the State of Jammu and Kashmir. The work has also not started in Assam and Mizoram till now, although the programme has been extended to these States. According to the Election Commission, the scheme of issue of Photo Identity Cards to electors is not a project but an ongoing programme and no time limit can be fixed for completion of such a programme. The registration of electors is a continuous process (except for a brief period between the last date for filing nomination and completion of election process.) Therefore, the scheme of issue of Photo Identity Cards to the registered electors is also a continuous programme and every new elector has also to be covered by the scheme. (c) The production of Electoral Photo Identity Cards was insisted upon in the recently held general elections to the Legislative Assembly of Haryana in February, 2000. The Commission had also prescribed other means of identification for the electors not provided with Photo Identity Cards. (d) No, Sir. Out of a total of 11,107,835 electors, 9831,338 electors have been issued Photo Identity Cards in Haryana. (e) No State/Union territory has expressed its inability to implement the programme of Electoral Photo Identity Cards. However, the scheme has so far not been extended to the State of Jammu and Kashmir. The work has also not started in Assam and Mizoram till now, although the programme has been extended to these States. (f) The Government has extended its support for this programme and is providing necessary funds for this programme which is sharable between the Union and the State Governments on 50:50 basis. (g) The scheme is being monitored by the Election Commission and it has stated that complete coverage of the entire electorate is not possible at a given point of time due to new additions in the Electoral Rolls. At present, the Government has no proposal to make production of Photo Identity Cards mandatory at the time of voting. It may also be stated that the orders of the Election Commission issued in 1994 are sub-judice before the Supreme Court of India. From 2tahamehmood at googlemail.com Mon Apr 27 23:20:42 2009 From: 2tahamehmood at googlemail.com (Taha Mehmood) Date: Mon, 27 Apr 2009 18:50:42 +0100 Subject: [Reader-list] MNIC: Parliament Questions - 5 Message-ID: <65be9bf40904271050i56d0fbfcqcbd1200297cf7d56@mail.gmail.com> http://164.100.47.132/psearch/QResult13.aspx?qref=7509 GOVERNMENT OF INDIA MINISTRY OF DEFENCE LOK SABHA UNSTARRED QUESTION NO 3235 ANSWERED ON 16.03.2000 IDENTITY CARDS TO RETIRED DEFENCE CIVILIANS 3235 . Shri CHANDRA NATH SINGH to the reply given to Unstarred Question No.825 dated July 28, 1997 regarding identity cards to retired defence civilian employees and state: (a) whether the retired defence civilian employees have since been issued identity cards; (b) if so, the reasons attributed thereto in context with the above reply; (c) the steps taken to ensure that the entry of retired defence civilian employees are made free in CAO`s office, `A` Block, Hutments Housing Naval HQ Civilian Office and `J` Block of Air HQ on the basis of these cards; and (d) the measures taken to allow the CSD canteen facilities to the retired defence civilian employees at Delhi? ANSWER MINISTER OF DEFENCE (SHRI GEORGE FERNANDES) (a) to (c): Based on the representations made by the Staff Associations, subsequent to the reply of Unstarred Question No.825 dated July 28, 1997, decision was taken to provide identity cards to the retired AFHQ civilian employees to enable them to identify themselves for any other activity including re-employment. These identity cards have been introduced from 1st October 1999. The identity cards are distinct and different from the ones which are issued to Service personnel and civilian employees in active service. The identity cards do not provide any special privilege like entry into Ministry of Defence or any of the Services HQ and other defence related establishments. (d) As per present policy, retired defence civilian employees are not authorised CSD canteen facilities. From anansi1 at earthlink.net Tue Apr 28 00:06:02 2009 From: anansi1 at earthlink.net (Paul D. Miller) Date: Mon, 27 Apr 2009 14:36:02 -0400 (EDT) Subject: [Reader-list] Query - Antarctica? Voices from the Waters 2009: Call for Entries Message-ID: <20303419.1240857363295.JavaMail.root@mswamui-valley.atl.sa.earthlink.net> Hi you all - this seems like a very interesting film festival. I'd like to ask if the topic of ice could be included? I'm working on a project about the sound of ice as afilm. The trailer is at www.djspooky.com/art/terra_nova.php Would you be able to take a look and see if this would work? thanx Paul D. Miller aka Dj Spooky -----Original Message----- >From: "Bangalore Film Society ," >Sent: Apr 27, 2009 5:06 AM >To: reader-list at sarai.net >Subject: [Reader-list] Voices from the Waters 2009: Call for Entries > >*Call For Entries* > >*Voices from the Waters 2009* > >*4th International Water Film Festival, Bangalore* > >* >* > >Bangalore Film Society, Arghyam- safe, sustainablle water for all, Svaraj- >Society for Voluntary Action Revitalization and Justice, Finger Lakes >Environmental Film Festival, Ithaca College, USA (FLEFF) Mountainfilm in >Telluride, USA, Alliance Francaise de Bangalore, Charter of Human >Responsibilities and Water Journeys - Campaign for Fundamental Right to >Water with the support of Max Mueller Bhavan, Bangalore are organizing the >fourth edition of the biggest international film festival on water- Voices >from the Waters 2009 from Friday 4th September, 2009 to Monday >7thSeptember, 2009. > > > >Established in 2005 to promote among the public an awareness of the myriad >water-issues affecting our everyday lives either directly or indirectly and >as a platform for alternate voices and views rarely heard in mainstream, >Voices from the Waters started as a Bangalore-based Environmental Film >Festival and over the 2007 and 2008 editions grew to be one of the largest, >most diverse and dynamic platforms of debate, dialogue and celebration of >the precious resource, the blue gold, life itself - water. > > >We invite you to be a part of the festival by contributing short, >documentary, animation and feature films (DVD format only) with English >subtitles on water and related issues. > >*If you have a film in under any of the following categories:* > >1. Water Scarcity, > >2. The Dams and the Displaced, > >3. Water Harvest, > >4. Water Struggles/conflicts, > >5. Floods and Droughts, > >6. Global Warming and Climate Change, > >7. Impact of Deforestation on Water Bodies, > >8. Water, Sanitation and health, > >9. River Pollution, > >10. The Holistic Revival of Water Bodies, > >11. Water and Life > > You can consider sending it to us. Please note that the categories are >loosely conceived and your film does not have to necessarily adhere to them >while focusing on the larger theme of water. > >Please find the entry form at >www.voicesfromthewaters.com > >*Submission Deadline: 31st July 2009* > > > >*Guidelines:* > >Entries to the Film Festival must include > > 1. DVD of the film (with English subtitles, if required) > 2. A completed and signed copy of the entry form > 3. 3 high-resolution stills of the film (can be sent via email) > 4. A high-resolution photograph of the director (can be sent via email) > >Promotional materials are welcome. > >There is no entry fee. > >All submitted films will be subject to a selection process by eminent >members of the festival jury. > >Applicant must pay for shipment of films to Voices from the Waters. > >Submitted films will not be returned but will be part of Voices from the >Waters library, one of the largest resources in the world for films on >water. > >Voices from the Waters is conceived as a traveling film festival. The >selected films after being premiered in Bangalore at the main event will be >taken across to educational institutions, non governmental organizations, >small towns and villages across India. >_________________________________________ >reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. >Critiques & Collaborations >To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with subscribe in the subject header. >To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list >List archive: A From yasir.media at gmail.com Tue Apr 28 01:12:57 2009 From: yasir.media at gmail.com (=?windows-1256?B?eWFzaXIgfu3HINPR?=) Date: Tue, 28 Apr 2009 00:42:57 +0500 Subject: [Reader-list] Query - Antarctica? Voices from the Waters 2009: Call for Entries In-Reply-To: <20303419.1240857363295.JavaMail.root@mswamui-valley.atl.sa.earthlink.net> References: <20303419.1240857363295.JavaMail.root@mswamui-valley.atl.sa.earthlink.net> Message-ID: <5af37bb0904271242hd3d1fbckd2bca401cd52b57a@mail.gmail.com> sounds like you're hoping by the time it gets to bangalore . . . On Mon, Apr 27, 2009 at 11:36 PM, Paul D. Miller wrote: > Hi you all - this seems like a very interesting film festival. I'd like to > ask if the topic of ice could be included? I'm working on a project about > the sound of ice as afilm. > > The trailer is at www.djspooky.com/art/terra_nova.php > > Would you be able to take a look and see if this would work? > > thanx > Paul D. Miller aka Dj Spooky > > -----Original Message----- > >From: "Bangalore Film Society ," > >Sent: Apr 27, 2009 5:06 AM > >To: reader-list at sarai.net > >Subject: [Reader-list] Voices from the Waters 2009: Call for Entries > > > >*Call For Entries* > > > >*Voices from the Waters 2009* > > > >*4th International Water Film Festival, Bangalore* > > > >* > >* > > > >Bangalore Film Society, Arghyam- safe, sustainablle water for all, Svaraj- > >Society for Voluntary Action Revitalization and Justice, Finger Lakes > >Environmental Film Festival, Ithaca College, USA (FLEFF) Mountainfilm in > >Telluride, USA, Alliance Francaise de Bangalore, Charter of Human > >Responsibilities and Water Journeys - Campaign for Fundamental Right to > >Water with the support of Max Mueller Bhavan, Bangalore are organizing > the > >fourth edition of the biggest international film festival on water- Voices > >from the Waters 2009 from Friday 4th September, 2009 to Monday > >7thSeptember, 2009. > > > > > > > >Established in 2005 to promote among the public an awareness of the myriad > >water-issues affecting our everyday lives either directly or indirectly > and > >as a platform for alternate voices and views rarely heard in mainstream, > >Voices from the Waters started as a Bangalore-based Environmental Film > >Festival and over the 2007 and 2008 editions grew to be one of the > largest, > >most diverse and dynamic platforms of debate, dialogue and celebration of > >the precious resource, the blue gold, life itself - water. > > > > > >We invite you to be a part of the festival by contributing short, > >documentary, animation and feature films (DVD format only) with English > >subtitles on water and related issues. > > > >*If you have a film in under any of the following categories:* > > > >1. Water Scarcity, > > > >2. The Dams and the Displaced, > > > >3. Water Harvest, > > > >4. Water Struggles/conflicts, > > > >5. Floods and Droughts, > > > >6. Global Warming and Climate Change, > > > >7. Impact of Deforestation on Water Bodies, > > > >8. Water, Sanitation and health, > > > >9. River Pollution, > > > >10. The Holistic Revival of Water Bodies, > > > >11. Water and Life > > > > You can consider sending it to us. Please note that the categories are > >loosely conceived and your film does not have to necessarily adhere to > them > >while focusing on the larger theme of water. > > > >Please find the entry form at > >www.voicesfromthewaters.com > > > >*Submission Deadline: 31st July 2009* > > > > > > > >*Guidelines:* > > > >Entries to the Film Festival must include > > > > 1. DVD of the film (with English subtitles, if required) > > 2. A completed and signed copy of the entry form > > 3. 3 high-resolution stills of the film (can be sent via email) > > 4. A high-resolution photograph of the director (can be sent via email) > > > >Promotional materials are welcome. > > > >There is no entry fee. > > > >All submitted films will be subject to a selection process by eminent > >members of the festival jury. > > > >Applicant must pay for shipment of films to Voices from the Waters. > > > >Submitted films will not be returned but will be part of Voices from the > >Waters library, one of the largest resources in the world for films on > >water. > > > >Voices from the Waters is conceived as a traveling film festival. The > >selected films after being premiered in Bangalore at the main event will > be > >taken across to educational institutions, non governmental organizations, > >small towns and villages across India. > >_________________________________________ > >reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > >Critiques & Collaborations > >To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > subscribe in the subject header. > >To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > >List archive: A > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > subscribe in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> From anansi1 at earthlink.net Tue Apr 28 01:23:41 2009 From: anansi1 at earthlink.net (Paul D. Miller) Date: Mon, 27 Apr 2009 15:53:41 -0400 Subject: [Reader-list] Query - Antarctica? Voices from the Waters 2009: Call for Entries Message-ID: <5mhmv6e68n3hmgnqu44q6u41.1240862021514@email.android.com> Not sure what you mean! Please explain. Do you mean ice changing to water for a film festival? ? The project is mainly for large opera houses, but I thought, hey... it'd be interesting to screen it in India. Paul yasir ~يا سر wrote: >sounds like you're hoping by the time it gets to bangalore . . . > >On Mon, Apr 27, 2009 at 11:36 PM, Paul D. Miller wrote: > >> Hi you all - this seems like a very interesting film festival. I'd like to >> ask if the topic of ice could be included? I'm working on a project about >> the sound of ice as afilm. >> >> The trailer is at www.djspooky.com/art/terra_nova.php >> >> Would you be able to take a look and see if this would work? >> >> thanx >> Paul D. Miller aka Dj Spooky >> >> -----Original Message----- >> >From: "Bangalore Film Society ," >> >Sent: Apr 27, 2009 5:06 AM >> >To: reader-list at sarai.net >> >Subject: [Reader-list] Voices from the Waters 2009: Call for Entries >> > >> >*Call For Entries* >> > >> >*Voices from the Waters 2009* >> > >> >*4th International Water Film Festival, Bangalore* >> > >> >* >> >* >> > >> >Bangalore Film Society, Arghyam- safe, sustainablle water for all, Svaraj- >> >Society for Voluntary Action Revitalization and Justice, Finger Lakes >> >Environmental Film Festival, Ithaca College, USA (FLEFF) Mountainfilm in >> >Telluride, USA, Alliance Francaise de Bangalore, Charter of Human >> >Responsibilities and Water Journeys - Campaign for Fundamental Right to >> >Water with the support of Max Mueller Bhavan, Bangalore are organizing >> the >> >fourth edition of the biggest international film festival on water- Voices >> >from the Waters 2009 from Friday 4th September, 2009 to Monday >> >7thSeptember, 2009. >> > >> > >> > >> >Established in 2005 to promote among the public an awareness of the myriad >> >water-issues affecting our everyday lives either directly or indirectly >> and >> >as a platform for alternate voices and views rarely heard in mainstream, >> >Voices from the Waters started as a Bangalore-based Environmental Film >> >Festival and over the 2007 and 2008 editions grew to be one of the >> largest, >> >most diverse and dynamic platforms of debate, dialogue and celebration of >> >the precious resource, the blue gold, life itself - water. >> > >> > >> >We invite you to be a part of the festival by contributing short, >> >documentary, animation and feature films (DVD format only) with English >> >subtitles on water and related issues. >> > >> >*If you have a film in under any of the following categories:* >> > >> >1. Water Scarcity, >> > >> >2. The Dams and the Displaced, >> > >> >3. Water Harvest, >> > >> >4. Water Struggles/conflicts, >> > >> >5. Floods and Droughts, >> > >> >6. Global Warming and Climate Change, >> > >> >7. Impact of Deforestation on Water Bodies, >> > >> >8. Water, Sanitation and health, >> > >> >9. River Pollution, >> > >> >10. The Holistic Revival of Water Bodies, >> > >> >11. Water and Life >> > >> > You can consider sending it to us. Please note that the categories are >> >loosely conceived and your film does not have to necessarily adhere to >> them >> >while focusing on the larger theme of water. >> > >> >Please find the entry form at >> >www.voicesfromthewaters.com >> > >> >*Submission Deadline: 31st July 2009* >> > >> > >> > >> >*Guidelines:* >> > >> >Entries to the Film Festival must include >> > >> > 1. DVD of the film (with English subtitles, if required) >> > 2. A completed and signed copy of the entry form >> > 3. 3 high-resolution stills of the film (can be sent via email) >> > 4. A high-resolution photograph of the director (can be sent via email) >> > >> >Promotional materials are welcome. >> > >> >There is no entry fee. >> > >> >All submitted films will be subject to a selection process by eminent >> >members of the festival jury. >> > >> >Applicant must pay for shipment of films to Voices from the Waters. >> > >> >Submitted films will not be returned but will be part of Voices from the >> >Waters library, one of the largest resources in the world for films on >> >water. >> > >> >Voices from the Waters is conceived as a traveling film festival. The >> >selected films after being premiered in Bangalore at the main event will >> be >> >taken across to educational institutions, non governmental organizations, >> >small towns and villages across India. >> >_________________________________________ >> >reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. >> >Critiques & Collaborations >> >To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with >> subscribe in the subject header. >> >To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list >> >List archive: A >> _________________________________________ >> reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. >> Critiques & Collaborations >> To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with >> subscribe in the subject header. >> To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list >> List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> >_________________________________________ >reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. >Critiques & Collaborations >To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with subscribe in the subject header. >To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list >List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> From pawan.durani at gmail.com Tue Apr 28 10:01:26 2009 From: pawan.durani at gmail.com (Pawan Durani) Date: Tue, 28 Apr 2009 10:01:26 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Operation Gibraltar & the Indo-Pak War of 1965 Message-ID: <6b79f1a70904272131t730a9b08l65a27b4b121e670@mail.gmail.com> *Operation **Gibraltar** & the Indo-Pak War of 1965* * * *By J.L. Tiku* *“Ayub Khan may have a lot to answer for authorizing Kashmir Operation, but in agreeing to ceasefire he acted with...realism....patriotism...., though he had to pay a terrible price in personal term” Altaf Gauhar* probably, the successful encounter of the Pakistan army with Indian forces in the Rann of Kutch area had reinforced Ayub Khan’s rising faith in the military superiority of his forces. The Rann of Kutch conflict was a low cost test of Indian will & capabilities. Ayub khan in his autobiography *Friends Not Masters *published in 1967 had left the important event of the 1965 war untouched intentionally. Now his son Gauhar Ayub Khan is trying to fill this gap in his reported forthcoming book. The book may be an attempt to salvage the lost position of his father *Field Marshal *Ayub Khan as President of Pakistan after 1965 debacle. Rann of Kutch was one of the areas left undemarcated by Radcliffe award during partition. Pakistan laid claim to whole of Rann, contrary to India’s position. The clash started between border police force and soon involved the armed forces of both sides. Pakistan did make local gains, it seems they were prepared for the battle. India didn’t want to engage extensively in the sticky area thinking it may have been Pakistan’s diversionary tactics. The Rann of Kutch operation also bolstered Pakistan official *General *Musa’s morale. His assessment of the inherent strength of army rose in tandem to Ayub Khan’s perception on the subject. Pakistan’s army was persuaded to produce a plan for a bolder course of action. The task was entrusted to *Maj. Gen. *Akhtar Hussain Malik, the General Officer Commanding, 12th Division, who was responsible for the defence of Pak Occupied Kashmir. The plan reflected his outlook and character - supposedly bold and imaginative. Thus was *Operation Gibraltar * born. Highly trained 30,000 strong *non-Kashmiri *guerilla force labeled *Gibraltar Forces *was to be raised at Murree under the charge of *Maj. Gen. *Akhtar Hussain Malik. The *Gibraltar Forces *bearing romantic names comprised of ten forces. These would be infiltrating whole of Jammu & Kashmir for mobilising mass scale uprising against India. Then the Pakistanarmy would march in to protect the ‘revolutionaries’. The decision for *Operation Gibraltar *was primarily based on three important premises. It was assumed that widespread support existed within Kashmir to make a guerilla campaign a success. It was considered unlikely that as a consequence of this action India would be inclined to attempt a large-scale military offensive against Pak Occupied Kashmir territory. Lastly the possibility of India crossing the international border either in then East or West Pakistan was ruled out. The several groups of *Gibraltar Forces *that infiltrated into Kashmir were: *Salaudin force *headed for Srinagar and Valley; *Ghaznavi force *operated in Mendhar-Rajouri; *Tariq force *was to strike Dras and Kargil; *Babbar force *Bhimber, Kalidhar; *Qasim force *Bandipora; *Khalid force *Qazinag; *Nasrat force *Tithwal area. The operation was launched as hurriedly as it had been conceived. It was not gradual enough to give it the character of an internal uprising. Whereas it was true that goodwill for Pakistan existed in some pockets of Kashmir, it was unrealistic to expect that this feeling of resentment against India could be mobilized all over Jammu & Kashmir and thereby make the execution of large-scale operation within Indian borders possible. They were not successful in establishing the necessary rapport with local populace. Few of them were turned over or revealed to the Indian army. With their self styled liberators and ‘freedom fighters’ who apart from doing some damage to public property and inflicting much suffering on the people by burning their homes got nowhere close to capturing the Srinagar Radio Station for their historic broadcast on 9lh August proclaiming that *war of liberation *was on. When faced with a rapidly escalating situation, which endangered India’s position in Kashmir, army persuaded to retaliate in an area in Pak Occupied Kashmir, which would be strategically important. The Haji Pir salient, which provided Pakistan with a link between the northern and southern sectors of Pak Occupied Kashmir, was a natural region, which fitted this pattern. Also, it had become important gateway for infiltrators and had to be closed. On 27th August the Indian army launched a strong attack on POK positions in the area, which were relatively lightly held, and by 28th August we were in control of strategic territory to cut the line of communication between Muzaffarabad, the capital of POK and Kotli, a major town in the southern POK. On 10th September Indian force advancing from Poonch completed the control of Uri-Poonch link, thus straightening the bulge. Pakistan retaliatedin vulnerable area of Chamb-Akhnur It is the only sector along the ceasefire line (LoC) where tanks could be used effectively during, offensive. Pakistan ordered its infantry division located South of Lahore to move to the Chamb area. Initially the attack was to be carried out by Maj. Gen. Akhtar Hussain Mulik of 12th Division. As formations of Pakistan's 12th division moved swiftly towards Akhnur, India was faced with a difficult military situation. The capture of Akhnur by Pakistan would provide them a base, seriously threaten the lines of communication between India and the Kashmir valley and it could result in the loss of a large portion of the Indian army in northern and central Kashmir. Indian was left with little choice but to remove this threat to the security of their vital strategic area. Rather than confining the contest to Pak occupied Kashmir, it was decided to widen the area of conflict to then West Pakistan. *Operation Riddle *was code word for all out attack on West Pakistan. The plan was prepared after Rann of Kutch incident. Of all the places in West Pakistan Lahore was the natural choice. *“I want to reach ** Lahore** before they take **Srinagar**” *were the strong words of then Prime Minister Shastri to army chief. A threat to its security could not fail to draw forces to Lahore’s defence, and this could well remove the threat to Jammu and Akhnur. The offensive was with this limited objective only. On 2nd September, just about thirty-six hours after the Chamb offensive launched by 12th Division, Pakistan completed the movement of their 7th Division to the Chamb area. On the very same day, *Maj. Gen. *Yahya Khan, GOC 7th Div. was given command of this sector and *Maj. Gen. *Akhtar Malik was ordered to return to his earlier location further north. The decision to change commanders in the midst of the Chamb battle was clearly based on the assumption that the Indian retaliation to an attack on Akhnur would come in the Pak Occupied Kashmir area in the North and not against Pakistanterritory in the South. As Pakistan changed horses in mid-stream, India began to make a last bid to strengthen her crumbling defences in the Akhnur area. The change of formation slowed down Pakistan’s advance sufficiently to allow the Indians to consolidate their position. And as our forces crossed Pakistan borders in Punjab on 6th September at dawn, the morale of the Indians in the Chamb-Akhnur sector began to recover. Neither country won the 22 day war. It was inconclusive war. It is equally true that Pakistan lost the war in that the she failed to win her military and political objectives. Pakistan's blunder was her over-confidence and arrogant underestimation of its adversary’s strength and competence. Pakistan having convinced themselves that they would win the war in a week's time on paper, had put everything they had all at once in full force their armour, artillery, and air power. With the result Pakistan army was short of supplies, it was running out of ammunition and had lost heavily in equipment and trained men. It had to seek help from friendly countries, Indonesia, China. Pakistan lost most decisive battles of the war-Assal Uttar in the Khem Karan sector and the tank battle in Sialkot sector. Pakistan lost half of their American gifted Patton tanks. Their strike power was crippled and humbled. The psychological impact of loss upon the Pak army and the military leadership couldn’t be underestimated. To continue to fight under these circumstances and with principle fighting concentrated in Pakistan would bring the risk of further heavy losses without immediate hope of gain. Pakistan finally had to accept conditions for truce which settled none of the issues which had precipitated war. It can be concluded from the course of events that steered the 22 day war, Pakistan had misjudged Indian psyche to its misadventure. If Pakistan’s army leadership had got hold of the war plan from Indian army official as reported by Gauhar Ayub, why did they leave *Haji-Pir *salient lightly held and then move 12th Division from South to Chamb sector so as to leave Lahorevulnerable for Indian attack. It is reported that Zulfikar Ali Bhutto had assured Ayub Khan that Indians would never violate the Indo-Pakistan border. On what basis Bhutto had given the assurance would require to be elaborated. These are few unanswered questions, which, Gauhar Ayub Khan has to throw some light on. *References*: 1 Altaf Gauhar was at the time of conflict, *Secretary, Ministry of information & Broadcasting, Government of **Pakistan**, *who worked closely with Ayub Khan for five and a half years. 2 Courtesy Times Of India, Bombay monograph dated November 10th 1965, *India Answers Pakistan *by *B. G. Verghese* ** *Source:* Kashmir Sentinel From pawan.durani at gmail.com Tue Apr 28 11:10:54 2009 From: pawan.durani at gmail.com (Pawan Durani) Date: Tue, 28 Apr 2009 11:10:54 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Karakul , Rahul & Animal Rights In-Reply-To: <6b79f1a70904272238vb028794y731e802b1fdc271a@mail.gmail.com> References: <6b79f1a70904272238vb028794y731e802b1fdc271a@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <6b79f1a70904272240p38223bf1ic0e6aedb294c7575@mail.gmail.com> Rahul sported a " karakul " hat in Kashmir . For those who do not know how a Karakul hat is made , should know that Karakul has its origins in the cruel slaughter of sheep. The karakul wool is made by beating a pregnant ewe till it aborts. As soon as it aborts, the lamb that comes out has very curly tight hair. "The lamb's skin remains curly and tight for the first 24 hours of its life. While still alive, the lamb's skin is stripped off and made into a cap. "The mother which is forced to abort also dies," Humane Society of the United States pointed out what it called the "suffering, inhumane slaughter, and waste of lives behind karakul fashions". With inputs taken from BBC For pictures : http://greaterkashmir.com/today/photo.asp?Date=28_4_2009 http://www.telegraphindia.com/1090428/jsp/nation/story_10886500.jsp From rama.sangye at gmail.com Tue Apr 28 11:19:43 2009 From: rama.sangye at gmail.com (V Ramaswamy) Date: Tue, 28 Apr 2009 11:19:43 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] my mails bouncing In-Reply-To: <6ade4a8f0904272249j518964bchc6e86ce99587c509@mail.gmail.com> References: <6ade4a8f0904272249j518964bchc6e86ce99587c509@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <6ade4a8f0904272249p74a37189k8a4094466e7bd160@mail.gmail.com> On Tue, Apr 28, 2009 at 11:19 AM, V Ramaswamy wrote: > Dear Friend > > I am a member of the Reader's List. For a long time, I'm unable to make > posts, my messages are rejected. > > Kindly help. > > Many thanks > > V Ramaswamy > Calcutta > From sub_sengupta at yahoo.co.in Tue Apr 28 11:26:48 2009 From: sub_sengupta at yahoo.co.in (subhrodip sengupta) Date: Tue, 28 Apr 2009 11:26:48 +0530 (IST) Subject: [Reader-list] Fw: Whither DEMOCRACY! Message-ID: <537493.22931.qm@web94702.mail.in2.yahoo.com> Hello all,               Just was goin through the shoe-hurling business, did you see how the security men plunged on the poor shoe-hurler who aimed the PM, just out of view of public can see the video on shoe hurled on pm episode. One may also see how police extracted a statement from the wanna-be engineer. Unabashed the PM continues knowing the guy is being taken care of. Do not now what hapened to him, but who was worse in name of democratic practice a man whose wrath was shown on a puppet and brought all thieves together or the agents of the party who do not hear the ordinary peoples voices even in a campaign and force their propaganda through people using force and violence. Surely the party mastaans wouldnt let his voice heard, either! I may say it is a cheap thing to do at everyday level, but whither democracy. Democracy is taking side once in every five years, nothing else? No body needs to answer things at all. Dutt made two allegations and got 2 fir's. One at the police which is sometimes saffron dorn, without further investigations accusing him of inciting communalism would be wrong, it could happen to anybody else if not him, the question is does it happen, then anyways it is stark expression of facts and not any incitement, it is a self defence measure, even if it is it is against Police not ordinary people, in the other statement against Mayawati which is so unpopular, I guess he used popular words against the corrupt leaders including Mal managed liqour shops, I think he had ARM-shops in mind. To dodge further analysis, Maya slammed another FIR, and worse acted funny taking it on a personal tone and talking about sisters in his own family! What a bloody communalism, isnt it!  ________________________________ Cricket on your mind? Visit the ultimate cricket website. Enter now! Now surf faster and smarter ! Check out the new Firefox 3 - Yahoo! Edition http://downloads.yahoo.com/in/firefox/ From kshmendra2005 at yahoo.com Tue Apr 28 14:30:29 2009 From: kshmendra2005 at yahoo.com (Kshmendra Kaul) Date: Tue, 28 Apr 2009 02:00:29 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Reader-list] Karakul , Rahul & Animal Rights In-Reply-To: <6b79f1a70904272240p38223bf1ic0e6aedb294c7575@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <33195.83679.qm@web57205.mail.re3.yahoo.com> I am simple minded.   I have often wondered about the Death Penalty to which I am totally opposed (for any kind of a crime whatsoever.)   Either you have the Death Penalty or you do not. If it exists, I see no difference whether the execution is carried out by a Lethal Injection, or by the Electric Chair, or the Gallows, or by Flogging, or by Stoning, or by Breaking Arms and Legs and Allowing to die of Heat or Cold.   Similarly, either you kill animals of a particular species or you do not. I do not see any difference between killing cattle for food (and using its hide for other purposes) and killing a fetus and using its hide for some purpose (Karakul cap).   There is nothing humane about killing. Thats all. How you kill does not matter.   But then I am simple minded   Kshmendra       --- On Tue, 4/28/09, Pawan Durani wrote: From: Pawan Durani Subject: [Reader-list] Karakul , Rahul & Animal Rights To: "reader-list" Date: Tuesday, April 28, 2009, 11:10 AM Rahul sported a " karakul " hat in Kashmir . For those who do not know how a Karakul hat is made , should know that Karakul has its origins in the cruel slaughter of sheep. The karakul wool is made by beating a pregnant ewe till it aborts. As soon as it aborts, the lamb that comes out has very curly tight hair. "The lamb's skin remains curly and tight for the first 24 hours of its life. While still alive, the lamb's skin is stripped off and made into a cap. "The mother which is forced to abort also dies," Humane Society of the United States pointed out what it called the "suffering, inhumane slaughter, and waste of lives behind karakul fashions". With inputs taken from BBC For pictures : http://greaterkashmir.com/today/photo.asp?Date=28_4_2009 http://www.telegraphindia.com/1090428/jsp/nation/story_10886500.jsp _________________________________________ reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. Critiques & Collaborations To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with subscribe in the subject header. To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> From kshmendra2005 at yahoo.com Tue Apr 28 14:56:40 2009 From: kshmendra2005 at yahoo.com (Kshmendra Kaul) Date: Tue, 28 Apr 2009 02:26:40 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Reader-list] The Mango Tree In-Reply-To: <47e122a70904270944x5e96e1e0n3a37551bd447ae63@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <225608.42852.qm@web57201.mail.re3.yahoo.com> """""" The 70-G-wallay are Baniyas (the traditional business community) and hence have a natural tendency to think about their personal benefits only.""""""   Natural tendency ? Sounds very racist.   Derogatory remarks about "baniyas" crop up most often on the Pakistani Media. It is more specific. It is the "Hindu Baniya". It used be taught that way in Pakistani school textbooks. Do not know if it still is.     Kshmendra --- On Mon, 4/27/09, Inder Salim wrote: From: Inder Salim Subject: [Reader-list] The Mango Tree To: "reader-list" Date: Monday, April 27, 2009, 10:14 PM -- THE MANGO TREE The centre of the universe is not the place where I am standing, but the Mango Tree in front of my balcony. But because of different seasons its centre of importance shifts, particularly when there are no mangoes on its branches. Almost a decade back, when I shifted into my flat, there was no such tree over there, but indeed a structure conducive for the growth of a Mango Tree, or any other tree, was always there. This space where these small and big trees exist belongs to the entire colony, a public space, where people relish their evening strolls, or let their children jump a little, and also scatter biscuit and chocolate wrapper around, carelessly. The Trees are mostly non-fruity ones, so everything is cool, except this Mango Tree. Right now, the entire colony is talking about this mango tree, but the flats which are directly facing this mango tree are constantly thinking about it. I am also looking at the mango tree, but among other things, what puzzles me is the question why the tree gives birth to hundreds of mangoes when it does not want its entire crop to grow? As I notice some little green mangoes keep on falling on the earth, naturally. Why? It fascinates me. This is perhaps, what we call mysteries of the nature, so no need to interfere or worry on that account. But still there are plenty of mangoes on the tree, and everybody is silently looking at them, who simply want to eat them. But there is some helplessness in their looking at them. The reason for this is that the 70-G-wallay (family living in the Ground floor) happened to water this mango tree sometimes , and now they have the birth right to harvest the entire crop of this tree. True, I am witness to that, but I doubt if they actually had planted the tree. I believe, somebody had carelessly thrown a mango kernel into the park which has given birth to this controversial tree. The 70-F-wallay, 70-S- wallay, and 70-T-wallay (families living in First, Second and Top floor) feel that they too have the right to eat some mangoes. These families live closer to this tree, but other families which are facing it too have the similar desire but, I guess the intensity of the desire to eat these mangoes is directly proportional to the distance of the eyes that are looking at this mango tree. The trouble is that the 70-G-wallay leave no stone unturned to ensure that the mango tree is under their control during the crop time. They don’t even let a singing bulbul, or a peaceful dove, let alone stray colony monkeys to come near this mango tree. They use all the ways and means to keep the other away from the reach of this tree. They must have even counted the number of mangoes on the tree which are still unripe, quite green but distinguishable from the green of its foliage. The 70-G-wallay are Baniyas (the traditional business community) and hence have a natural tendency to think about their personal benefits only. I must say, with some confidence, that such families are the predecessor families of the entire world capitalism, like monkey is known as the predecessor of the man. A limited thought, but business is usually created to be inherited by their successors, usually sons. So, there is a tradition, to own the factory, an orchid, an oil well etc. Right now, here in this colony, there are people who want the entire mango tree to be felled since they don’t get their share of mangoes, but there are people who are content with the idea of a tree alone. Although, the later category of people are quite in minority but they are happy that there is a place for a dove to make a nest, or twig for a squirrel to jump from this tree to another tree. Yes, some children from outside, say from other underprivileged families, whom I guess have never tasted a mango in their life, do come and try to steal a mango or two from this tree by throwing a stone or a small stick. The 70-G-Wallay quickly come out from their flat and use all kinds of popular vernacular to chase them away. The rest of families again remain silent, who otherwise would not like these outside children to venture into the protected colony, where I too happen to own a flat. The result is that every year, the 70-G-wallay harvest the unripe crop lest it might be shared or stolen by others. The entire unripe-unripe crop is harvested, because the fear of losing the crop intensifies with the passing of each day, which is just good enough for ordinary pickle at the best. The real mangos never see the light of the day. I don’t about the whole world, but in India, the nature of business is such that the entire crop of Mangoes is usually plucked from the branches while it is still growing, still green. The golden fruit becomes golden only in the dark rooms of Mandi (Fruit markets) where they are dumped for couple of days, or weeks, to hit the stalls on the very day they turn golden, golden red or golden green. Who knows if some chemicals are injected into the mangoes to give them a more golden look, or make turn them even tastier? After all we are lured by products which are masked, glossed, either on TV, cinema, or in the Malls, or in the life directly. After all, the idea of mango is usually smarter than the actual mango. But there are spaces where Mangoes are allowed to turn golden on the trees itself, and subsequently relished with their maximum sugar and vitamin levels. But, as we know that is outside the structure of business and people like 70-G-wallay don’t have a clue about that. So, has anybody ever tasted a real mango? The question is that there is just one mango tree, and thousands of eyes on its couple of hundred odd mangoes on the tree. Right now, the people like 70-G-wallay who control the production of plant don’t let the mangos grow naturally. So they too have not tasted a mango, and neither let others to taste a real ripe one. So has anybody tasted a real mango, if there is one, and if yes, who deserves to eat that, and relish? please press to see mangoes http://pics.livejournal.com/indersalim/pic/000hz44h/ With love Inder salim http://indersalim.livejournal.com _________________________________________ reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. Critiques & Collaborations To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with subscribe in the subject header. To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> From joechrismyles at gmail.com Tue Apr 28 15:35:52 2009 From: joechrismyles at gmail.com (joe chris) Date: Tue, 28 Apr 2009 05:05:52 -0500 Subject: [Reader-list] Openspace Hyderabad, Workshop on RTI In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <6165c5a80904280305i43fd213foaabc7d8dac16799e@mail.gmail.com> Dear Friends, Hope this mail finds you in good health. We are happy to announce that Openspace Hyderabad is organizing a two day workshop on the *Right To Information* act on the 29th and 30th of this month (Wednesday and Thursday). The workshop is to be held at the Pastoral Centre, 5-9-305, Gunfoundry, Hyderabad. Mr. Rakesh Reddy associated with Election Watch will act as our resource person for the workshop. *The participants who will successfully complete the workshop, will be awarded a certificate the Center for Communication and Development Studies, Pune.* Since, the entry is on a first come first serve basis, Interested parties register as soon as possible, with Joe Christopher, CCDS-Openspace Fellow Hyderabad. You can reach me at 98856-23408/ 040-40112114 or write to 2joechristopher at gmail.com*. *The details of the event are listed below. * Date: 29th & 30th April **Time: 11.00 AM Venue: Pastoral Centre, 5-9-3-5, Gunfoundry, Hyderabad- 500001* *Resource Person: Mr. Rakesh Reddy, Election Watch* *Who can take part*: *Students, faculty members, corporate employees, NGO workers, journalists, media personnel, activists and anybody who wants to avail of the RTI act can participate.* *To Register call 98856-23408 or write to 2joechristopher at gmail.com <2joechristopher at gmail.com%20>* *You can also help us by circulating this mail amongst your friends...* -- Regards, joe christopher, CCDS-Openspace Fellow, Hyderabad. 98856-23408 From indersalim at gmail.com Tue Apr 28 16:05:05 2009 From: indersalim at gmail.com (Inder Salim) Date: Tue, 28 Apr 2009 16:05:05 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] The Mango Tree In-Reply-To: <225608.42852.qm@web57201.mail.re3.yahoo.com> References: <47e122a70904270944x5e96e1e0n3a37551bd447ae63@mail.gmail.com> <225608.42852.qm@web57201.mail.re3.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <47e122a70904280335h44ba2c70oac8b6e3664394534@mail.gmail.com> Thanks dear Kshmendra to call Baniya as a baniya is not racist as i know, like jat, like brahmin i further said, that it is a limited idea, that squarely means i dont support calling baniyas as baniyas, but it is popular expression, and we all know how baniyas are traditionally known to be business minded people, only.... anyway, that is that my question still remains, a serious one, have u ever tasted a Real Mango ? if yes, please describe, its shape, its taste, its colour, with love inder salim On Tue, Apr 28, 2009 at 2:56 PM, Kshmendra Kaul wrote: > """""" The 70-G-wallay are Baniyas (the traditional business community) and > hence have a natural tendency to think about their personal benefits > only."""""" > > Natural tendency ? Sounds very racist. > > Derogatory remarks about "baniyas" crop up most often on the Pakistani > Media. It is more specific. It is the "Hindu Baniya". It used be taught that > way in Pakistani school textbooks. Do not know if it still is. > > Kshmendra > > --- On Mon, 4/27/09, Inder Salim wrote: > > From: Inder Salim > Subject: [Reader-list] The Mango Tree > To: "reader-list" > Date: Monday, April 27, 2009, 10:14 PM > > -- > THE MANGO TREE > The centre of the universe is not the place where I am standing, but > the Mango Tree in front of my balcony. But because of different > seasons its centre of importance shifts, particularly when there are > no mangoes on its branches. Almost a decade back, when I shifted into > my flat, there was no such tree over there, but indeed a structure > conducive for the growth of a Mango Tree, or any other tree, was > always there. This space where these small and big trees exist belongs > to the entire colony, a public space, where people relish their > evening strolls, or let their children jump a little, and also > scatter biscuit and chocolate wrapper around, carelessly. The Trees > are mostly non-fruity ones, so everything is cool, except this Mango > Tree. > Right now, the entire colony is talking about this mango tree, but the > flats which are directly facing this mango tree are constantly > thinking about it. I am also looking at the mango tree, but among > other things, what puzzles me is the question why the tree gives birth > to hundreds of mangoes when it does not want its entire crop to grow? > As I notice some little green mangoes keep on falling on the earth, > naturally. Why? It fascinates me. This is perhaps, what we call > mysteries of the nature, so no need to interfere or worry on that > account. But still there are plenty of mangoes on the tree, and > everybody is silently looking at them, who simply want to eat them. > But there is some helplessness in their looking at them. > The reason for this is that the 70-G-wallay (family living in the > Ground floor) happened to water this mango tree sometimes , and now > they have the birth right to harvest the entire crop of this tree. > True, I am witness to that, but I doubt if they actually had planted > the tree. I believe, somebody had carelessly thrown a mango kernel > into the park which has given birth to this controversial tree. The > 70-F-wallay, 70-S- wallay, and 70-T-wallay (families living in First, > Second and Top floor) feel that they too have the right to eat some > mangoes. These families live closer to this tree, but other families > which are facing it too have the similar desire but, I guess the > intensity of the desire to eat these mangoes is directly proportional > to the distance of the eyes that are looking at this mango tree. > The trouble is that the 70-G-wallay leave no stone unturned to ensure > that the mango tree is under their control during the crop time. They > don’t even let a singing bulbul, or a peaceful dove, let alone stray > colony monkeys to come near this mango tree. They use all the ways > and means to keep the other away from the reach of this tree. They > must have even counted the number of mangoes on the tree which are > still unripe, quite green but distinguishable from the green of its > foliage. The 70-G-wallay are Baniyas (the traditional business > community) and hence have a natural tendency to think about their > personal benefits only. I must say, with some confidence, that such > families are the predecessor families of the entire world capitalism, > like monkey is known as the predecessor of the man. A limited thought, > but business is usually created to be inherited by their successors, > usually sons. So, there is a tradition, to own the factory, an orchid, > an oil well etc. Right now, here in this colony, there are people who > want the entire mango tree to be felled since they don’t get their > share of mangoes, but there are people who are content with the idea > of a tree alone. Although, the later category of people are quite in > minority but they are happy that there is a place for a dove to make a > nest, or twig for a squirrel to jump from this tree to another tree. > Yes, some children from outside, say from other underprivileged > families, whom I guess have never tasted a mango in their life, do > come and try to steal a mango or two from this tree by throwing a > stone or a small stick. The 70-G-Wallay quickly come out from their > flat and use all kinds of popular vernacular to chase them away. The > rest of families again remain silent, who otherwise would not like > these outside children to venture into the protected colony, where I > too happen to own a flat. > The result is that every year, the 70-G-wallay harvest the unripe crop > lest it might be shared or stolen by others. The entire unripe-unripe > crop is harvested, because the fear of losing the crop intensifies > with the passing of each day, which is just good enough for ordinary > pickle at the best. The real mangos never see the light of the day. > I don’t about the whole world, but in India, the nature of business is > such that the entire crop of Mangoes is usually plucked from the > branches while it is still growing, still green. The golden fruit > becomes golden only in the dark rooms of Mandi (Fruit markets) where > they are dumped for couple of days, or weeks, to hit the stalls on the > very day they turn golden, golden red or golden green. Who knows if > some chemicals are injected into the mangoes to give them a more > golden look, or make turn them even tastier? After all we are lured by > products which are masked, glossed, either on TV, cinema, or in the > Malls, or in the life directly. After all, the idea of mango is > usually smarter than the actual mango. > But there are spaces where Mangoes are allowed to turn golden on the > trees itself, and subsequently relished with their maximum sugar and > vitamin levels. But, as we know that is outside the structure of > business and people like 70-G-wallay don’t have a clue about that. So, > has anybody ever tasted a real mango? > The question is that there is just one mango tree, and thousands of > eyes on its couple of hundred odd mangoes on the tree. Right now, the > people like 70-G-wallay who control the production of plant don’t let > the mangos grow naturally. So they too have not tasted a mango, and > neither let others to taste a real ripe one. > So has anybody tasted a real mango, if there is one, and if yes, who > deserves to eat that, and relish? > please press to see mangoes > http://pics.livejournal.com/indersalim/pic/000hz44h/ > With love > Inder salim > http://indersalim.livejournal.com > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with subscribe > in > the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> > -- http://indersalim.livejournal.com From rajen882uppinangadi at gmail.com Tue Apr 28 16:15:52 2009 From: rajen882uppinangadi at gmail.com (Rajen Uppinangadi) Date: Tue, 28 Apr 2009 16:15:52 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Mango tree and mangos. Message-ID: <61164a90904280345k76cfe5c1p6d493eb827795939@mail.gmail.com> Hi, Inder Salim, your prose on a mango tree, is a good poetic expression, has had hidden currents of very humane feelings that none are able to enjoy the fruits which are natural bounty to mankind, but at the same time is tinted with prejudice of the caste in the background to give the assessment a human touch that all humans are conditioned by prides and prejudices.? Regards, Rajen. From rajen882uppinangadi at gmail.com Tue Apr 28 16:35:11 2009 From: rajen882uppinangadi at gmail.com (Rajen Uppinangadi) Date: Tue, 28 Apr 2009 16:35:11 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Modi bashing is secularism.! Message-ID: <61164a90904280405pbfd266am72d4843fc6a68460@mail.gmail.com> Hi, Venu, I am not out to establish anything for or against Modi, except to point out that the rioters were treated as they deserve to be treated, with bullets, to quell rioys. As to MPs cry for help and also cries for help from anyone of the societal citizen, in riotlike situation the rescue and help comes at them by only good governance, not because one is of any faith. Mind you, it did not come to the help of citizens in marad, and many other places where cries of help went out loud and clear. As to politics of hate, it started from 1945 when Congress arranged for Jinnah to be out of it and muslim league was allowed to be flourishing, now even CPM is having arrangement with madani for the votes, not on principles of governance but on faith calculations. All parties who talk of secularism are in fact catering communal politics for their very survival, not for good governance but for power. The issue here is a chief minister who did not pamper rioters of any faith and dealt with deviant, as they should be dealt in rule of laws. As to thehelka, its expose' has lost credibilty because of its methods in madness, partisan coverage, illegal and immoral methodology of stings, particularly the expose using the sex workers, and its "jpurnalist" who got beaten up in Press club at Trivenfrum as he boasted of his sex adventures. Would anyone believe that oldest party is clean and has lived without kickbacks in any deals, particularly after the uncle Q getting funds defrozen in London by the additional attorney general,under very nose of judges of Supreme court, as CJI does not even take suo moto action against such fly by night operators. Media giving breaking news about Modi, but not breaking news about High court order for registering FIR against the Chief minister of rajastan, Ashok Gehlot for the land allottment illegally., ordering probe in to the matter. Our secular media has a method in madness. Chitra Subramanyam those days did lots of verification and fact finding before publishing the news of bofors, but today the Shekar Gupta has nothing to do except walk the talk for padma awards.! regards, Rajen. Regards, Rajen. From rajen882uppinangadi at gmail.com Tue Apr 28 16:46:44 2009 From: rajen882uppinangadi at gmail.com (Rajen Uppinangadi) Date: Tue, 28 Apr 2009 16:46:44 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Modi bashing is secular.! Message-ID: <61164a90904280416g12de2330x5b61237fe22b46e6@mail.gmail.com> Dear Taha, like all the institutions in democracy, judiciary is also accountable to ultimate sovereigns of the democracy, the citizens of the nation, as we see the judges who fudge the date of births to be in office for some more months, some CJs having real estate business from official residence with their sons as executives, some chief justice buying lands worth 5 crores for 5 lakhs for justice delayed or denied is not once in a while aberration of judiciary, just as the pf scam involving the judges of differnt ranks and cash door delivery to high court is no laughing matter indeed for the issue being subjudice, as judges are respected for impeccable integrity, honesty and for upholding the rule of laws, but if citizens see them, perceive them as corrupt, committed to political, rich bigwigs as now, with CBI playing the pied piper instead of being a good investigator, the judges remind me of the plywood advertisement, "chaltha rahe, " as the hammer falls on the table, judges have the big hammer of "contempt" proceedings to misuse against the citizens to make them quiet.? As to your links and quotes, I have nothing more to explain, as I can give you many such links of Bukhari of jama Masjid, or even Indira and Rajeev of their hate speeches, but it is of no use as the talk is hot air meant for their cadres, or may also be media invention in e.world. Regards, Rajen. From c.anupam at gmail.com Tue Apr 28 17:39:25 2009 From: c.anupam at gmail.com (anupam chakravartty) Date: Tue, 28 Apr 2009 17:39:25 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Modi bashing is secular.! In-Reply-To: <61164a90904280416g12de2330x5b61237fe22b46e6@mail.gmail.com> References: <61164a90904280416g12de2330x5b61237fe22b46e6@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <341380d00904280509g1c89faeck29ac53728056e6aa@mail.gmail.com> Dear Rajen, the last part of your mail says that you can provide instances of hate speech by Rajiv, Indira and Bukhari of Jama Masjid. It would be kind of you if could forwards these credible links here. thanks anupam On 4/28/09, Rajen Uppinangadi wrote: > > Dear Taha, > > like all the institutions in democracy, judiciary is also accountable to > ultimate sovereigns of the democracy, the citizens of the nation, as we see > the judges who fudge the date of births to be in office for some more > months, some CJs having real estate business from official residence with > their sons as executives, some chief justice buying lands worth 5 crores > for 5 lakhs for justice delayed or denied is not once in a while > aberration > of judiciary, just as the pf scam involving the judges of differnt ranks > and > cash door delivery to high court is no laughing matter indeed for the issue > being subjudice, as judges are respected for impeccable integrity, honesty > and for upholding the rule of laws, but if citizens see them, perceive them > as corrupt, committed to political, rich bigwigs as now, with CBI playing > the pied piper instead of being a good investigator, the judges remind me > of > the plywood advertisement, "chaltha rahe, " as the hammer falls on the > table, judges have the big hammer of "contempt" proceedings to misuse > against the citizens to make them quiet.? > > As to your links and quotes, I have nothing more to explain, as I can give > you many such links of Bukhari of jama Masjid, or even Indira and Rajeev of > their hate speeches, but it is of no use as the talk is hot air meant for > their cadres, or may also be media invention in e.world. > > Regards, > Rajen. > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > subscribe in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> From kshmendra2005 at yahoo.com Tue Apr 28 17:43:43 2009 From: kshmendra2005 at yahoo.com (Kshmendra Kaul) Date: Tue, 28 Apr 2009 05:13:43 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Reader-list] Fwd: Dehumanising the Muslim Woman By A. Faizur Rahman (fwded by Yogi Sikand) In-Reply-To: <1f9180970904252223x64772b82o8d0fb2d45d0d0c1@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <113990.19464.qm@web57202.mail.re3.yahoo.com> Dear Venugopalan   Thank you for sharing this fine article by A Faizur Rehman (AFR).   In the context of the dialogue you and I earlier had, there are two points:   1. COMMON UNDERSTANDING OF QURAN SUPPORTING ENNOBLING 'SPIRIT OF ISLAM"   4:34 of Surah An Nisa  (beat the women if you fear etc etc ....) is a good example of what I had called "controversial advisories" in the Quran which has to be re-interpreted with common acceptance by all Muslims (Law of Evidences will still be a problem)   Though AFR says  that "obviously beating the wife cannot be an option to sort out differences" he fails to give an alternate credible interpretation.   The suggested replacement "to explain by giving an example." for the word "beat" is a poor one. The advisory is of progressive severity, first admonish, then refuse a shared bed. "Explain by giving example" cannot follow in progressive severity.   As AFR says, most of the respected translations/commentaries use the word "beat" or equivalent. http://www.islamawakened.com/Quran/4/34/   The best interpretation for Muslims would be to replace the sense of "beat" by "strike out". Strike such women out of your lives, Separate, Divorce.   2. GO BACK TO BASICS. UNDERSTAND QURAN FIRST. IGNORE HADEETH & RIVAYAAT   AFR presents an excellent example of "death by stoning for adultery" which finds itself mentioned in many a Hadeeth and Rivayaat and goes against the Quran which also says that no punishment should exceed the ones specified in the Quran.   There are instances of "death by stoning" mentioned during the lifetime of Mohammed and with his knowledge or approval or on his direction. If I were a Muslim, I would reject any such Hadeeth or Rivaayat since it comes into conflict with the 100 lashes punishment specified in 24:2 of Surah An Nur.   What Muslims seem not to register is that in many an instances it is asked whether the "death by stoning" during Mohammed's lifetime was prior to or after the revelation of Surah An Nur. I do not recollect any definitive answer but it has to be "prior to". Mohammed would not transgress the Quran.   What is shocking is that after Mohammed's death, the "death by stoning" punishment continued to be used. Ali (Mohammed's son-in -law) and fourth Khalifa is considered to be one of the finest voices on Islamic Jurisprudence. (I am a great fan of his writings). But Ali is often mentioned as being what I would call is an unabashed transgressor of the Quran by specifying the "death by stoning" punishment. http://smma59.wordpress.com/2008/03/23/adultery-judgements-by-maula-alias/   I will repeat myself:   What the Muslims need to do is to go back to the basics. Study the Quran and the Quran alone and understand it along the lines I had written about earlier:   - Self-declaratory by Allah. A generalised commentary on  Creator and the Creations and expectations of Creator from Creations - Advisories for Mohammed alone - Advisories for everyone - Advisories for specific times - Advisories valid in perpetuity for ever after - Commentaries of the times before Mohammed that may or may not be advisories  in perpetuity for ever after   Once they agree on a common understanding they will find much in the Hadeeth and Rivaayat from the different sects that need to be discarded. They will find quite unimportant some of the difference they quarrel over. They will find a new understanding of what a true Muslim is that will not make them suspect in the eyes of everyone else.   Kshmendra   --- On Sun, 4/26/09, Venugopalan K M wrote: From: Venugopalan K M Subject: [Reader-list] Fwd: Dehumanising the Muslim Woman By A. Faizur Rahman (fwded by Yogi Sikand) To: "sarai-list" Date: Sunday, April 26, 2009, 10:53 AM ---------- Forwarded message ---------- From: yogi sikand To: saldwr at yahoogroups.com Date: Tue, 21 Apr 2009 23:38:09 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Faizur Rahman: Dehumanising the Muslim woman Dehumanising the Muslim woman By A. Faizur Rahman  The passage of a law in Afghanistan asking Muslim women to unconditionally submit to the sexual whims of their husbands once in four days is a shocking piece of legislation that seeks to dehumanise women reducing them to mere chattels devoid of human rights. Although this law applies only to the Shia minority, it is outrageous that the Afghan mullahs thought it Islamic to legislate on a private relationship which is confined to the four walls of a bedroom. To add insult to injury the 300 women who were bold enough to protest against this inhuman law were pelted with stones and called “dogs” and “slaves of the Christians.” One fails to understand why motives should be attributed to a democratic protest. How can the moderate Muslims who have always been part of the larger Muslim society suddenly become agents of the West “which is out to destroy Islam?” The truth is that it is the bigoted Talibanised Muslims who are destroying Islam through their misinterpretations and intolerance for progressive ideas. It is they who need to be treated for their fossilized mind-set.  It is strange the puppet regime of Hamid Karzai, which was installed by the US and its allies to replace the Taliban, is doing exactly what the Taliban would have done if they were in power. If this was what was in store for Afghanistan why were the Taliban replaced at all? In fact, the entire region seems to be relapsing into medievalism with Pakistan signing a deal with the terrorists of the Swat valley to implement their version of the shariah which is symbolized by the brutal and arbitrary public flogging of an young girl without establishing her guilt in a proper court of law, to say nothing about the recent refusal of a Saudi judge to annul the marriage of an eight year old child to a forty seven year old man.  A deeper probe into the psyche of most of the narrow-minded radicalized jurists would reveal that their interpretations are based on traditional tafsirs (commentaries) written by patriarchal males representing only the experiences of men with either the total exclusion of experiences of women, or their interpretation through the coloured vision of men. This has resulted in women being brought under the control of men to be exploited at will.  For instance, in interesting incident concerning the shariah, The New York Times on March 22, 2007 reported that a German Judge turned down citing the Quran, a Muslim wife's request for a fast-track divorce on the ground that her husband beat her from the beginning of their marriage. The Judge justified her ruling by saying that the couple came from a Moroccan cultural milieu in which it is common for husbands to beat their wives because the Quran sanctions such physical abuse.  The Judge was obviously quoting one of the most mistranslated verses of the Quran (4:34) which supposedly allows wife beating. The mistranslated word is wazribuhunna which is derived from the root zaraba. Major commentators of the Quran including Ibn Kasir, Pickthall, and Maulana Maududi, the founder of Jamaat-e-Islami, have rendered this word as "beat them" ignoring the fact that the word zaraba has various other shades of meaning. Out of the 50 times it occurs in the Quran, 31 times it has been used in the meaning of "to explain by giving an example." Only 10 times it has used to mean "to strike" but mostly in the context of Moses "striking the rock" or the sea, and angels "striking the faces" of the sinners. The verse 4:34 actually talks about the various means at the disposal of a husband to bring about a reconciliation with his wife and obviously beating the wife cannot be an option to sort out differences. Thus, the translation "beat them" is clearly not justified in this context. But unfortunately even today most Muslim societies consider it their Islamic right to beat their wives for disobedience. In other words, the passage of the controversial Afghan law would allow husbands to beat their wives if they refuse sex or step out of the house without their permission. For Islam to be exploited in this manner is indeed shocking given the fact that the Prophet was one of the greatest promoters of women’s rights.  The same holds true for the punishment of stoning to death for adultery. The primary source of Islamic law, the Quran, does not prescribe stoning as a punishment for any crime much less adultery. It only authorizes the Muslim state to flog those guilty of adultery or fornication but only after the case has been proved by four eye witnesses which is a near impossibility. Even here the flogging is not meant to hurt the person but only to humiliate him. A report in Kitabul Hudud of Bukhari says that when a man was brought before the Prophet for habitual drinking he was asked to be flogged. And it was done with a lash made out of twisted clothing which could not have hurt him. Interestingly, when someone in the group cursed the drunken man saying “May Allah disgrace you” he was chided by the Prophet. Compare this to the brutality of what is being done in the name of Islam today. It is time the ulema worldwide collaborated on a liberal interpretation of Islam in the modern context. (Source: The Hindustan Times, April 18, 2009)  The author is student of comparative study of religions. He may be reached at From pawan.durani at gmail.com Tue Apr 28 17:45:46 2009 From: pawan.durani at gmail.com (Pawan Durani) Date: Tue, 28 Apr 2009 17:45:46 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Karakul , Rahul & Animal Rights In-Reply-To: <33195.83679.qm@web57205.mail.re3.yahoo.com> References: <6b79f1a70904272240p38223bf1ic0e6aedb294c7575@mail.gmail.com> <33195.83679.qm@web57205.mail.re3.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <6b79f1a70904280515v775883d7l23d3a3428d1448e9@mail.gmail.com> I condemn Rahul Gandhi , Omar Abdullah and Saif-Ud-din Soz wearing 'Karakul' hats at election rallies in Srinagar Kashmir. This is as good as endrosing cruelty towards animals. the fur of newborn and fetal karakul lambs who are bred by the thousands in Central Asia for the bloody fur trade. Because their unique, highly prized curly fur begins to unwind and straighten within three days of birth, many karakul lambs are slaughtered when they are only 1 or 2 days old. The rest don’t even make it that far. In order to get a karakul fetus’s hide—called “broadtail” in the industry and valued for its exceptional smoothness—the mother’s throat is slit and her stomach slashed open to remove the developing lamb. A mother typically gives birth to three lambs before being slaughtered along with her fourth fetus, about 15 to 30 days before it is due to be born. As many as 4 million karakul lambs are slaughtered for their fur every year. The fur industry tries to justify karakul lamb fur as a byproduct, but with a single karakul lamb coat selling for up to $12,000 and “broadtail” fetus coats fetching as much as $25,000, it’s little surprise that the mother sheep and her baby’s skinned carcass are usually regarded simply as trash. What can you do about karakul lamb fur? - Don’t buy or wear ANY fur. - If you see karakul lamb fur for sale, write to the store owners or managers, let them know where it comes from, and urge them to pull it from the shelves - Write to *PETA India * P.O. Box No 2 GPO , Pune 411 001 India Tel.: [+91] 020 -2605 8102 Universal no : 1860-233-4222 Fax: [+91] 020-2605 8106 On Tue, Apr 28, 2009 at 2:30 PM, Kshmendra Kaul wrote: > I am simple minded. > > I have often wondered about the Death Penalty to which I am totally opposed > (for any kind of a crime whatsoever.) > > Either you have the Death Penalty or you do not. If it exists, I see no > difference whether the execution is carried out by a Lethal Injection, or by > the Electric Chair, or the Gallows, or by Flogging, or by Stoning, or by > Breaking Arms and Legs and Allowing to die of Heat or Cold. > > Similarly, either you kill animals of a particular species or you do not. I > do not see any difference between killing cattle for food (and using its > hide for other purposes) and killing a fetus and using its hide for some > purpose (Karakul cap). > > There is nothing humane about killing. Thats all. How you kill does not > matter. > > But then I am simple minded > > Kshmendra > > > > --- On *Tue, 4/28/09, Pawan Durani * wrote: > > From: Pawan Durani > Subject: [Reader-list] Karakul , Rahul & Animal Rights > To: "reader-list" > Date: Tuesday, April 28, 2009, 11:10 AM > > > Rahul sported a " karakul " hat in Kashmir . > > For those who do not know how a Karakul hat is made , should know that > Karakul has its origins in the cruel slaughter of sheep. > > The karakul wool is made by beating a pregnant ewe till it aborts. > > As soon as it aborts, the lamb that comes out has very curly tight hair. > > "The lamb's skin remains curly and tight for the first 24 hours of its > life. > While still alive, the lamb's skin is stripped off and made into a cap. > > "The mother which is forced to abort also dies," > > Humane Society of the United States pointed out what it called the > "suffering, inhumane slaughter, and waste of lives behind karakul > fashions". > > > > > With inputs taken from BBC > > > > > > > > > For pictures : http://greaterkashmir.com/today/photo.asp?Date=28_4_2009 > > http://www.telegraphindia.com/1090428/jsp/nation/story_10886500.jsp > > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with subscribe in > the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> > > > From indersalim at gmail.com Tue Apr 28 18:03:20 2009 From: indersalim at gmail.com (Inder Salim) Date: Tue, 28 Apr 2009 18:03:20 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Mango tree and mangos. In-Reply-To: <61164a90904280345k76cfe5c1p6d493eb827795939@mail.gmail.com> References: <61164a90904280345k76cfe5c1p6d493eb827795939@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <47e122a70904280533m1d20eea2o8c6ae4dbe85fc91b@mail.gmail.com> dear Rajan thanks foir the comment, i must say, there is Baniya ( business man ) in each one of us, and , perhaps, that is why the real mango has almost taken the shape of a myth, i am perhaps, talking about the universal feminine sensibilities which ought to have been naturally in place inside each human being , but alas, we are often content with the mask ........ perhaps, we need unmasking urgently, which is radical thought, and for that reason we might create another mask, to outwit the myth we are entitled to create another myth, but we may not lose the sight of the idea which is restoration and dissolution of sensibilities... my idea is at we all deserve to relish a mango, but where is it? love is On Tue, Apr 28, 2009 at 4:15 PM, Rajen Uppinangadi wrote: > Hi, >    Inder Salim, > >   your prose on a mango tree, is a good poetic expression,  has had hidden > currents of very humane feelings that none are able to enjoy the fruits > which are natural bounty to mankind, but at the same time is tinted with > prejudice of the caste in the background to give the assessment a human > touch that all humans are conditioned by prides and prejudices.? > > Regards, > > Rajen. > -- http://indersalim.livejournal.com From kshmendra2005 at yahoo.com Tue Apr 28 18:35:19 2009 From: kshmendra2005 at yahoo.com (Kshmendra Kaul) Date: Tue, 28 Apr 2009 06:05:19 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Reader-list] The Mango Tree In-Reply-To: <47e122a70904280335h44ba2c70oac8b6e3664394534@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <545429.78659.qm@web57208.mail.re3.yahoo.com> Dear Inder   Calling a "baniya" a "baniya" is certainly not racist.   But, saying that (to paraphrase) "baniyas have a natural tendency to think about their personal benefits only"  certainly sounds racist when you attribute such a (seemingly) negative quality to all of those who are "baniyas".   Wait. It doesnt just sound racist but is a racist comment. Not much "love" in that.   Please continue your search for the "Real Mango". You best know what you are looking for. To each one her/his own search.   Kshmendra     --- On Tue, 4/28/09, Inder Salim wrote: From: Inder Salim Subject: Re: [Reader-list] The Mango Tree To: "reader-list" Date: Tuesday, April 28, 2009, 4:05 PM Thanks dear Kshmendra to call Baniya as a baniya is not racist as i know, like jat, like brahmin i further said, that it is a limited idea, that squarely means i dont support calling baniyas as baniyas, but it is popular expression, and we all know how baniyas are traditionally known to be business minded people, only.... anyway, that is that my question still remains, a serious one, have u ever tasted a Real Mango ? if yes, please describe, its shape, its taste, its colour, with love inder salim On Tue, Apr 28, 2009 at 2:56 PM, Kshmendra Kaul wrote: > """""" The 70-G-wallay are Baniyas (the traditional business community) and > hence have a natural tendency to think about their personal benefits > only."""""" > > Natural tendency ? Sounds very racist. > > Derogatory remarks about "baniyas" crop up most often on the Pakistani > Media. It is more specific. It is the "Hindu Baniya". It used be taught that > way in Pakistani school textbooks. Do not know if it still is. > > Kshmendra > > --- On Mon, 4/27/09, Inder Salim wrote: > > From: Inder Salim > Subject: [Reader-list] The Mango Tree > To: "reader-list" > Date: Monday, April 27, 2009, 10:14 PM > > -- > THE MANGO TREE > The centre of the universe is not the place where I am standing, but > the Mango Tree in front of my balcony. But because of different > seasons its centre of importance shifts, particularly when there are > no mangoes on its branches. Almost a decade back, when I shifted into > my flat, there was no such tree over there, but indeed a structure > conducive for the growth of a Mango Tree, or any other tree, was > always there. This space where these small and big trees exist belongs > to the entire colony, a public space, where people relish their > evening strolls, or let their children jump a little, and also > scatter biscuit and chocolate wrapper around, carelessly. The Trees > are mostly non-fruity ones, so everything is cool, except this Mango > Tree. > Right now, the entire colony is talking about this mango tree, but the > flats which are directly facing this mango tree are constantly > thinking about it. I am also looking at the mango tree, but among > other things, what puzzles me is the question why the tree gives birth > to hundreds of mangoes when it does not want its entire crop to grow? > As I notice some little green mangoes keep on falling on the earth, > naturally. Why? It fascinates me. This is perhaps, what we call > mysteries of the nature, so no need to interfere or worry on that > account. But still there are plenty of mangoes on the tree, and > everybody is silently looking at them, who simply want to eat them. > But there is some helplessness in their looking at them. > The reason for this is that the 70-G-wallay (family living in the > Ground floor) happened to water this mango tree sometimes , and now > they have the birth right to harvest the entire crop of this tree. > True, I am witness to that, but I doubt if they actually had planted > the tree. I believe, somebody had carelessly thrown a mango kernel > into the park which has given birth to this controversial tree. The > 70-F-wallay, 70-S- wallay, and 70-T-wallay (families living in First, > Second and Top floor) feel that they too have the right to eat some > mangoes. These families live closer to this tree, but other families > which are facing it too have the similar desire but, I guess the > intensity of the desire to eat these mangoes is directly proportional > to the distance of the eyes that are looking at this mango tree. > The trouble is that the 70-G-wallay leave no stone unturned to ensure > that the mango tree is under their control during the crop time. They > don’t even let a singing bulbul, or a peaceful dove, let alone stray > colony monkeys to come near this mango tree. They use all the ways > and means to keep the other away from the reach of this tree. They > must have even counted the number of mangoes on the tree which are > still unripe, quite green but distinguishable from the green of its > foliage. The 70-G-wallay are Baniyas (the traditional business > community) and hence have a natural tendency to think about their > personal benefits only. I must say, with some confidence, that such > families are the predecessor families of the entire world capitalism, > like monkey is known as the predecessor of the man. A limited thought, > but business is usually created to be inherited by their successors, > usually sons. So, there is a tradition, to own the factory, an orchid, > an oil well etc. Right now, here in this colony, there are people who > want the entire mango tree to be felled since they don’t get their > share of mangoes, but there are people who are content with the idea > of a tree alone. Although, the later category of people are quite in > minority but they are happy that there is a place for a dove to make a > nest, or twig for a squirrel to jump from this tree to another tree. > Yes, some children from outside, say from other underprivileged > families, whom I guess have never tasted a mango in their life, do > come and try to steal a mango or two from this tree by throwing a > stone or a small stick. The 70-G-Wallay quickly come out from their > flat and use all kinds of popular vernacular to chase them away. The > rest of families again remain silent, who otherwise would not like > these outside children to venture into the protected colony, where I > too happen to own a flat. > The result is that every year, the 70-G-wallay harvest the unripe crop > lest it might be shared or stolen by others. The entire unripe-unripe > crop is harvested, because the fear of losing the crop intensifies > with the passing of each day, which is just good enough for ordinary > pickle at the best. The real mangos never see the light of the day. > I don’t about the whole world, but in India, the nature of business is > such that the entire crop of Mangoes is usually plucked from the > branches while it is still growing, still green. The golden fruit > becomes golden only in the dark rooms of Mandi (Fruit markets) where > they are dumped for couple of days, or weeks, to hit the stalls on the > very day they turn golden, golden red or golden green. Who knows if > some chemicals are injected into the mangoes to give them a more > golden look, or make turn them even tastier? After all we are lured by > products which are masked, glossed, either on TV, cinema, or in the > Malls, or in the life directly. After all, the idea of mango is > usually smarter than the actual mango. > But there are spaces where Mangoes are allowed to turn golden on the > trees itself, and subsequently relished with their maximum sugar and > vitamin levels. But, as we know that is outside the structure of > business and people like 70-G-wallay don’t have a clue about that. So, > has anybody ever tasted a real mango? > The question is that there is just one mango tree, and thousands of > eyes on its couple of hundred odd mangoes on the tree. Right now, the > people like 70-G-wallay who control the production of plant don’t let > the mangos grow naturally. So they too have not tasted a mango, and > neither let others to taste a real ripe one. > So has anybody tasted a real mango, if there is one, and if yes, who > deserves to eat that, and relish? > please press to see mangoes > http://pics.livejournal.com/indersalim/pic/000hz44h/ > With love > Inder salim > http://indersalim.livejournal.com > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with subscribe > in > the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> > -- http://indersalim.livejournal.com _________________________________________ reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. Critiques & Collaborations To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with subscribe in the subject header. To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> From monica at sarai.net Tue Apr 28 18:32:05 2009 From: monica at sarai.net (Monica Narula) Date: Tue, 28 Apr 2009 18:32:05 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Pankaj Mishra on Wendy Doniger's The Hindus - An Alternative History Message-ID: <9073D2B5-C0D7-4356-A4B8-47FFCAD05DC7@sarai.net> Wendy Doniger's: The Hindus - An Alternative History Visiting India in 1921, E. M. Forster witnessed the eight-day celebration of Lord Krishna’s birthday. This first encounter with devotional ecstasy left the Bloomsbury aesthete baffled. “There is no dignity, no taste, no form,” he complained in a letter home. Recoiling from Hindu India, Forster was relieved to enter the relatively rational world of Islam. Describing the muezzin’s call at the Taj Mahal, he wrote, “I knew at all events where I stood and what I heard; it was a land that was not merely atmosphere but had definite outlines and horizons.” Forster, who later used his appalled fascination with India’s polytheistic muddle to superb effect in his novel “A Passage to India,” was only one in a long line of Britons who felt their notions of order and morality challenged by Indian religious and cultural practices. The British Army captain who discovered the erotic temples of Khajuraho in the early 19th century was outraged by how “extremely indecent and offensive” depictions of fornicating couples profaned a “place of worship.” Lord Macaulay thundered against the worship, still widespread in India today, of the Shiva lingam. Even Karl Marx inveighed against how man, “the sovereign of nature,” had degraded himself in India by worshipping Hanuman, the monkey god. Repelled by such pagan blasphemies, the first British scholars of India went so far as to invent what we now call “Hinduism,” complete with a mainstream classical tradition consisting entirely of Sanskrit philosophical texts like the Bhagavad-Gita and the Upanishads. In fact, most Indians in the 18th century knew no Sanskrit, the language exclusive to Brahmins. For centuries, they remained unaware of the hymns of the four Vedas or the idealist monism of the Upanishads that the German Romantics, American Transcendentalists and other early Indophiles solemnly supposed to be the very essence of Indian civilization. (Smoking chillums and chanting “Om,” the Beats were closer to the mark.) As Wendy Doniger, a scholar of Indian religions at the University of Chicago, explains in her staggeringly comprehensive book, the British Indologists who sought to tame India’s chaotic polytheisms had a “Protestant bias in favor of scripture.” In “privileging” Sanskrit over local languages, she writes, they created what has proved to be an enduring impression of a “unified Hinduism.” And they found keen collaborators among upper-caste Indian scholars and translators. This British-Brahmin version of Hinduism — one of the many invented traditions born around the world in the 18th and 19th centuries — has continued to find many takers among semi-Westernized Hindus suffering from an inferiority complex vis-à-vis the apparently more successful and organized religions of Christianity, Judaism and Islam. The Hindu nationalists of today, who long for India to become a muscular international power, stand in a direct line of 19th-century Indian reform movements devoted to purifying and reviving a Hinduism perceived as having grown too fragmented and weak. These mostly upper- caste and middle-class nationalists have accelerated the modernization and homogenization of “Hinduism.” Still, the nontextual, syncretic religious and philosophical traditions of India that escaped the attention of British scholars flourish even today. Popular devotional cults, shrines, festivals, rites and legends that vary across India still form the worldview of a majority of Indians. Goddesses, as Doniger writes, “continue to evolve.” Bollywood produced the most popular one of my North Indian childhood: Santoshi Mata, who seemed to fulfill the materialistic wishes of newly urbanized Hindus. Far from being a slave to mindless superstition, popular religious legend conveys a darkly ambiguous view of human action. Revered as heroes in one region, the characters of the great epics “Ramayana” and “Mahabharata” can be regarded as villains in another. Demons and gods are dialectically interrelated in a complex cosmic order that would make little sense to the theologians of the so-called war on terror. Doniger sets herself the ambitious task of writing “a narrative alternative to the one constituted by the most famous texts in Sanskrit.” As she puts it, “It’s not all about Brahmins, Sanskrit, the Gita.” It’s also not about perfidious Muslims who destroyed innumerable Hindu temples and forcibly converted millions of Indians to Islam. Doniger, who cannot but be aware of the political historiography of Hindu nationalists, the most powerful interpreters of Indian religions in both India and abroad today, also wishes to provide an “alternative to the narrative of Hindu history that they tell.” She writes at length about the devotional “bhakti” tradition, an ecstatic and radically egalitarian form of Hindu religiosity which, though possessing royal and literary lineage, was “also a folk and oral phenomenon,” accommodating women, low-caste men and illiterates. She explores, contra Marx, the role of monkeys as the “human unconscious” in the “Ramayana,” the bible of muscular Hinduism, while casting a sympathetic eye on its chief ogre, Ravana. And she examines the mythology and ritual of Tantra, the most misunderstood of Indian traditions. She doesn’t neglect high-table Hinduism. Her chapter on violence in the “Mahabharata” is particularly insightful, highlighting the tragic aspects of the great epic, and unraveling, in the process, the hoary cliché of Hindus as doctrinally pacifist. Both “dharma” and “karma” get their due. Those who tilt at organized religions today on behalf of a residual Enlightenment rationalism may be startled to learn that atheism and agnosticism have long traditions in Indian religions and philosophies. Though the potted biographies of Mughal emperors seem superfluous in a long book, Doniger’s chapter on the centuries of Muslim rule over India helps dilute the lurid mythology of Hindu nationalists. Motivated by realpolitik rather than religious fundamentalism, the Mughals destroyed temples; they also built and patronized them. Not only is there “no evidence of massive coercive conversion” to Islam, but also so much of what we know as popular Hinduism — the currently popular devotional cults of Rama and Krishna, the network of pilgrimages, ashrams and sects — acquired its distinctive form during Mughal rule. Doniger’s winsomely eclectic range of reference — she enlists Philip Roth’s novel “I Married a Communist” for a description of the Hindu renunciant’s psychology — begins to seem too determinedly eccentric when she discusses Rudyard Kipling, a figure with no discernible influence on Indian religions, with greater interpretative vigor than she does Mohandas K. Gandhi, the most creative of modern devout Hindus. More puzzlingly, Doniger has little to say about the forms Indian cultures have assumed in Bali, Mauritius, Trinidad and Fiji, even as she describes at length the Internet-enabled liturgies of Hindus in America. Yet it is impossible not to admire a book that strides so intrepidly into a polemical arena almost as treacherous as Israel- Arab relations. During a lecture in London in 2003, Doniger escaped being hit by an egg thrown by a Hindu nationalist apparently angry at the “sexual thrust” of her interpretation of the “sacred” “Ramayana.” This book will no doubt further expose her to the fury of the modern-day Indian heirs of the British imperialists who invented “Hinduism.” Happily, it will also serve as a salutary antidote to the fanatics who perceive — correctly — the fluid existential identities and commodious metaphysic of practiced Indian religions as a threat to their project of a culturally homogenous and militant nation-state. Pankaj Mishra is the author of “An End to Suffering: The Buddha in the World” and “Temptations of the West: How to Be Modern in India, Pakistan, Tibet, and Beyond.” ============================================= Monica Narula Raqs Media Collective Sarai-CSDS www.raqsmediacollective.net www.sarai.net From sub_sengupta at yahoo.co.in Tue Apr 28 21:09:42 2009 From: sub_sengupta at yahoo.co.in (subhrodip sengupta) Date: Tue, 28 Apr 2009 21:09:42 +0530 (IST) Subject: [Reader-list] The Mango Tree In-Reply-To: <225608.42852.qm@web57201.mail.re3.yahoo.com> References: <225608.42852.qm@web57201.mail.re3.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <654120.27714.qm@web94715.mail.in2.yahoo.com> very true sir, but why give Paki tone to it? There are hindu punjabis, biharis non-baniyas etc who share the same thing for hindu baniyas, and a second class to the marwaris. They do and it is well-noted in Hindu literature, I can tell you  Bibhutibhusan, a bengali. And can for the sake of not attacking a caste, can we ignore it's tendancy? Ok, lets take it not that deeply, but strong feeling of author. ________________________________ From: Kshmendra Kaul To: reader-list ; Inder Salim Sent: Tuesday, 28 April, 2009 2:56:40 PM Subject: Re: [Reader-list] The Mango Tree """""" The 70-G-wallay are Baniyas (the traditional business community) and hence have a natural tendency to think about their personal benefits only.""""""   Natural tendency ? Sounds very racist.   Derogatory remarks about "baniyas" crop up most often on the Pakistani Media. It is more specific. It is the "Hindu Baniya". It used be taught that way in Pakistani school textbooks. Do not know if it still is.     Kshmendra --- On Mon, 4/27/09, Inder Salim wrote: From: Inder Salim Subject: [Reader-list] The Mango Tree To: "reader-list" Date: Monday, April 27, 2009, 10:14 PM -- THE MANGO TREE The centre of the universe is not the place where I am standing, but the Mango Tree in front of my balcony. But because of different seasons its centre of importance shifts,  particularly when there are no mangoes on its branches.. Almost a decade back, when I shifted into my flat, there was no such tree over there, but indeed a structure conducive for the growth of a Mango Tree, or any other tree, was always there. This space where these small and big trees exist belongs to the entire colony, a public space,  where people relish their evening strolls, or let  their children jump a little, and also scatter biscuit and chocolate wrapper around, carelessly. The Trees are mostly non-fruity ones, so everything is cool, except this Mango Tree. Right now, the entire colony is talking about this mango tree, but the flats which are directly facing this mango tree are constantly thinking about it. I am also looking at the mango tree, but among other things, what puzzles me is the question why the tree gives birth to hundreds of mangoes when it does not want its entire crop to grow? As I notice some little green mangoes keep on falling on the earth, naturally. Why? It fascinates me. This is perhaps, what we call mysteries of the nature, so no need to interfere or worry on that account.  But still there are plenty of mangoes on the tree, and everybody is silently looking at them, who simply want to eat them. But there is some helplessness in their looking at them. The reason for this is that the 70-G-wallay (family living in the Ground floor) happened to water this mango tree sometimes , and now they have the birth right to harvest the entire crop of this tree. True, I am witness to that, but I doubt if they  actually  had planted the tree. I believe, somebody had carelessly thrown a mango kernel into the park which has given birth to this controversial tree.  The 70-F-wallay, 70-S- wallay, and 70-T-wallay (families living in First, Second and Top floor) feel that they too have the right to eat some mangoes. These families live closer to this tree, but other families which are facing it too have the similar desire but, I guess the intensity of the desire to eat these mangoes is directly proportional to the distance of the eyes that are looking at this mango tree. The trouble is that the 70-G-wallay leave no stone unturned to ensure that the mango tree is under their control during the crop time. They don’t even let a singing bulbul, or a peaceful dove, let alone stray colony monkeys to come near this mango tree.    They use all the ways and means to keep the other away from the reach of this tree.  They must have even counted the number of mangoes on the tree which are still unripe, quite green but distinguishable from the green of its foliage. The 70-G-wallay are Baniyas (the traditional business community) and hence have a natural tendency to think about their personal benefits only. I must say, with some confidence, that such families are the predecessor families of the entire world capitalism, like monkey is known as the predecessor of the man. A limited thought, but business is usually created to be inherited by their successors, usually sons. So, there is a tradition, to own the factory, an orchid, an oil well etc.  Right now, here in this colony, there are people who want the entire mango tree to be felled since they don’t get their share of mangoes, but there are people who are content with the idea of a tree alone. Although, the later category of people are quite in minority but they are happy that there is a place for a dove to make a nest, or twig for a squirrel  to jump from this tree to another tree. Yes, some children from outside,  say from other underprivileged families, whom I guess have never tasted a mango in their life, do come and try to steal a mango or two from this tree  by throwing a stone or a small stick. The 70-G-Wallay quickly come out from their flat and use all kinds of popular vernacular to chase them away. The rest of families again remain silent, who otherwise would not like these outside children to venture into the protected colony, where I too happen to own a flat. The result is that every year, the 70-G-wallay harvest the unripe crop lest it might be shared or stolen by others. The entire unripe-unripe crop is harvested, because the fear of losing the crop intensifies with the passing of each day, which is just good enough for  ordinary pickle at the best. The real mangos never see the light of the day. I don’t about the whole world, but in India, the nature of business is such that the entire crop of Mangoes is usually plucked from the branches while it is still growing, still green. The golden fruit becomes golden only in the dark rooms of Mandi (Fruit markets) where they are dumped for couple of days, or weeks, to hit the stalls on the very day they turn golden, golden red or golden green.  Who knows if some chemicals are injected into the mangoes to give them a more golden look, or make turn them even tastier? After all we are lured by products which are masked, glossed, either on TV, cinema, or in the Malls, or in the life directly. After all, the idea of mango is usually smarter than the actual mango. But there are spaces where Mangoes are allowed to turn golden on the trees itself, and subsequently relished with their maximum sugar and vitamin levels. But, as we know that is outside the structure of business and people like 70-G-wallay don’t have a clue about that. So, has anybody ever tasted a real mango? The question is that there is just one mango tree, and thousands of eyes on its couple of hundred odd mangoes on the tree. Right now, the people like 70-G-wallay who control the production of plant don’t let the mangos grow naturally. So they too have not tasted a mango, and neither let others to taste a real ripe one. So  has anybody tasted a real mango, if there is one, and if yes, who deserves to eat that, and relish? please press to see mangoes http://pics.livejournal.com/indersalim/pic/000hz44h/ With love Inder salim http://indersalim.livejournal.com _________________________________________ reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. Critiques & Collaborations To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with subscribe in the subject header. To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/>       _________________________________________ reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. Critiques & Collaborations To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with subscribe in the subject header. To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> Now surf faster and smarter ! Check out the new Firefox 3 - Yahoo! Edition http://downloads.yahoo.com/in/firefox/ From indersalim at gmail.com Tue Apr 28 21:25:35 2009 From: indersalim at gmail.com (Inder Salim) Date: Tue, 28 Apr 2009 21:25:35 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] The Mango Tree In-Reply-To: <545429.78659.qm@web57208.mail.re3.yahoo.com> References: <47e122a70904280335h44ba2c70oac8b6e3664394534@mail.gmail.com> <545429.78659.qm@web57208.mail.re3.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <47e122a70904280855x3839cbc8pf77ddbf94ca4c4e8@mail.gmail.com> Dear Kshmendra, thanks once again for the time taken to reflect back, i wont ask you what you are looking for, but reading your reflection for some time now, i feel our 'search' is not so much in opposition to each others..........., with exceptions here or there. The Real Mango is one of that search programme, if one can say like that, if only you see what i mean by that. For example, the real mango also contains our common search for a law which banishes death sentence. Your unease against the dogmatic practices prevalent in our faith systems is also part of the real mango. Any way, i dont want sound telling you that the Real Mango is panacea of our all the ills, but when i talk about the restoration of sensibilities it is in this sense, one such idea in my soul happens to be feminine in nature ( say skahti part of our living ) which we sadly experience disappearing from our lives. so talking repeatedly about that, with some empirical form which simultaneously talks about 'desire' as well. Here,the culprit, i see this liberal capitalism ( our baninya mentality, or Americanism ) which is devastating our very existence on the earth. i repeat, that there is a 'baniya' each one of us. so saying baniya to a baniya is far from a racists comment. It is about our attitude to life, which i aimed to satirizes the 'profitability principle' still love to all baniyas, even if they dont shun their mind sets about life. which is similar to the slogan written behind trucks usually Buri nazar wallay, tera bi bhalla, ( my good wishes to you, who has an evil eye, even ) so love once again is On Tue, Apr 28, 2009 at 6:35 PM, Kshmendra Kaul wrote: > Dear Inder > > Calling a "baniya" a "baniya" is certainly not racist. > > But, saying that (to paraphrase) "baniyas have a natural tendency to think > about their personal benefits only"  certainly sounds racist when you > attribute such a (seemingly) negative quality to all of those who are > "baniyas". > > Wait. It doesnt just sound racist but is a racist comment. Not much "love" > in that. > > Please continue your search for the "Real Mango". You best know what you are > looking for. To each one her/his own search. > > Kshmendra > > > > --- On Tue, 4/28/09, Inder Salim wrote: > > From: Inder Salim > Subject: Re: [Reader-list] The Mango Tree > To: "reader-list" > Date: Tuesday, April 28, 2009, 4:05 PM > > Thanks dear Kshmendra > > to call Baniya as a baniya is not racist as i know, like jat, like brahmin > > i further said, that it is a limited idea, that squarely means i dont > support calling baniyas as baniyas, but it is popular expression, and > we all know how baniyas are traditionally known to be business minded > people, only.... > > anyway, that is that > > my question still remains, a serious one, > > have u ever tasted a Real Mango ? if yes, please describe, its shape, > its taste, its colour, > > > with love > inder salim > > On Tue, Apr 28, 2009 at 2:56 PM, Kshmendra Kaul > wrote: >> """""" The 70-G-wallay are Baniyas (the > traditional business community) and >> hence have a natural tendency to think about their personal benefits >> only."""""" >> >> Natural tendency ? Sounds very racist. >> >> Derogatory remarks about "baniyas" crop up most often on the > Pakistani >> Media. It is more specific. It is the "Hindu Baniya". It used be > taught that >> way in Pakistani school textbooks. Do not know if it still is. >> >> Kshmendra >> >> --- On Mon, 4/27/09, Inder Salim wrote: >> >> From: Inder Salim >> Subject: [Reader-list] The Mango Tree >> To: "reader-list" >> Date: Monday, April 27, 2009, 10:14 PM >> >> -- >> THE MANGO TREE >> The centre of the universe is not the place where I am standing, but >> the Mango Tree in front of my balcony. But because of different >> seasons its centre of importance shifts, particularly when there are >> no mangoes on its branches. Almost a decade back, when I shifted into >> my flat, there was no such tree over there, but indeed a structure >> conducive for the growth of a Mango Tree, or any other tree, was >> always there. This space where these small and big trees exist belongs >> to the entire colony, a public space, where people relish their >> evening strolls, or let their children jump a little, and also >> scatter biscuit and chocolate wrapper around, carelessly. The Trees >> are mostly non-fruity ones, so everything is cool, except this Mango >> Tree. >> Right now, the entire colony is talking about this mango tree, but the >> flats which are directly facing this mango tree are constantly >> thinking about it. I am also looking at the mango tree, but among >> other things, what puzzles me is the question why the tree gives birth >> to hundreds of mangoes when it does not want its entire crop to grow? >> As I notice some little green mangoes keep on falling on the earth, >> naturally. Why? It fascinates me. This is perhaps, what we call >> mysteries of the nature, so no need to interfere or worry on that >> account. But still there are plenty of mangoes on the tree, and >> everybody is silently looking at them, who simply want to eat them. >> But there is some helplessness in their looking at them. >> The reason for this is that the 70-G-wallay (family living in the >> Ground floor) happened to water this mango tree sometimes , and now >> they have the birth right to harvest the entire crop of this tree. >> True, I am witness to that, but I doubt if they actually had planted >> the tree. I believe, somebody had carelessly thrown a mango kernel >> into the park which has given birth to this controversial tree. The >> 70-F-wallay, 70-S- wallay, and 70-T-wallay (families living in First, >> Second and Top floor) feel that they too have the right to eat some >> mangoes. These families live closer to this tree, but other families >> which are facing it too have the similar desire but, I guess the >> intensity of the desire to eat these mangoes is directly proportional >> to the distance of the eyes that are looking at this mango tree. >> The trouble is that the 70-G-wallay leave no stone unturned to ensure >> that the mango tree is under their control during the crop time. They >> don’t even let a singing bulbul, or a peaceful dove, let alone stray >> colony monkeys to come near this mango tree. They use all the ways >> and means to keep the other away from the reach of this tree. They >> must have even counted the number of mangoes on the tree which are >> still unripe, quite green but distinguishable from the green of its >> foliage. The 70-G-wallay are Baniyas (the traditional business >> community) and hence have a natural tendency to think about their >> personal benefits only. I must say, with some confidence, that such >> families are the predecessor families of the entire world capitalism, >> like monkey is known as the predecessor of the man. A limited thought, >> but business is usually created to be inherited by their successors, >> usually sons. So, there is a tradition, to own the factory, an orchid, >> an oil well etc. Right now, here in this colony, there are people who >> want the entire mango tree to be felled since they don’t get their >> share of mangoes, but there are people who are content with the idea >> of a tree alone. Although, the later category of people are quite in >> minority but they are happy that there is a place for a dove to make a >> nest, or twig for a squirrel to jump from this tree to another tree. >> Yes, some children from outside, say from other underprivileged >> families, whom I guess have never tasted a mango in their life, do >> come and try to steal a mango or two from this tree by throwing a >> stone or a small stick. The 70-G-Wallay quickly come out from their >> flat and use all kinds of popular vernacular to chase them away. The >> rest of families again remain silent, who otherwise would not like >> these outside children to venture into the protected colony, where I >> too happen to own a flat. >> The result is that every year, the 70-G-wallay harvest the unripe crop >> lest it might be shared or stolen by others. The entire unripe-unripe >> crop is harvested, because the fear of losing the crop intensifies >> with the passing of each day, which is just good enough for ordinary >> pickle at the best. The real mangos never see the light of the day. >> I don’t about the whole world, but in India, the nature of business is >> such that the entire crop of Mangoes is usually plucked from the >> branches while it is still growing, still green. The golden fruit >> becomes golden only in the dark rooms of Mandi (Fruit markets) where >> they are dumped for couple of days, or weeks, to hit the stalls on the >> very day they turn golden, golden red or golden green. Who knows if >> some chemicals are injected into the mangoes to give them a more >> golden look, or make turn them even tastier? After all we are lured by >> products which are masked, glossed, either on TV, cinema, or in the >> Malls, or in the life directly. After all, the idea of mango is >> usually smarter than the actual mango. >> But there are spaces where Mangoes are allowed to turn golden on the >> trees itself, and subsequently relished with their maximum sugar and >> vitamin levels. But, as we know that is outside the structure of >> business and people like 70-G-wallay don’t have a clue about that. So, >> has anybody ever tasted a real mango? >> The question is that there is just one mango tree, and thousands of >> eyes on its couple of hundred odd mangoes on the tree. Right now, the >> people like 70-G-wallay who control the production of plant don’t let >> the mangos grow naturally. So they too have not tasted a mango, and >> neither let others to taste a real ripe one. >> So has anybody tasted a real mango, if there is one, and if yes, who >> deserves to eat that, and relish? >> please press to see mangoes >> http://pics.livejournal.com/indersalim/pic/000hz44h/ >> With love >> Inder salim >> http://indersalim.livejournal.com >> _________________________________________ >> reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. >> Critiques & Collaborations >> To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > subscribe >> in >> the subject header. >> To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list >> List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> >> > > > > -- > > http://indersalim.livejournal.com > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with subscribe > in > the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> > -- http://indersalim.livejournal.com From akshaym at gmail.com Wed Apr 29 04:26:01 2009 From: akshaym at gmail.com (Akshay) Date: Wed, 29 Apr 2009 04:26:01 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] [Trivial Matters] The Godfather of Bangalore In-Reply-To: <1240959098875.dea9755f-460d-4735-adac-7adf950720d8@google.com> References: <1240959098875.dea9755f-460d-4735-adac-7adf950720d8@google.com> Message-ID: <1932e9470904281556p2a0fdbf6tb4fd80c5d80643d@mail.gmail.com> [image: Godfathers of Bangalore © WIRED] [The billionaire and former don "Muthappa Rai" is also a man of leisure. Here he drives a golf cart in front of his mansion just outside of Bangalore.] This part of a story I helped and shot for *Wired* on Bangalore's Land Mafia - it is centered around a former mob boss turned business men and politician muthappa rai. Well you find most of the details her in the online version of the story - * here* . Here are the other pictures 1 [image: Godfathers of Bangalore © WIRED] [Two burly men carrying shotguns smile grimly as I drive past the first checkpoint to Muthappa Rai's fortified compound. I'm an hour south of Bangalore in a patchwork of fallow fields and construction sites. Rai's mansion comes into view at the top of a hill, a giant white building surrounded by a 20-foot-high concrete wall.] 2 [image: Godfathers of Bangalore © WIRED] ['Agni’ Sridhar, a former Bangalore don turned filmaker, editor and journalist at his house in Bangalore. His bangalore house and office is a walled complex with electic fences and 20 foot walls around it.He wrote the cult Kannada movie Aa Dinagalu which is based on his day in bangalore's Mafia.] 3 [image: Godfathers of Bangalore © WIRED] [Lokesh's nickname, "Malama", means "medicine". As in if you have a problem, Lokesh is the medicine. He is a well-known rowdie who settles real estate deals with force. He has several cases, included those of murder against him. He believes he is a old school gangster and believes more using knifes and swords then guns] 4 [image: Godfathers of Bangalore © WIRED] [Lawyer and associate of mid-level assosiate Muttapa Rai at his pigeon-hole office in Shivajinagar.] -- Posted By Akshay to Trivial Matterson 4/29/2009 03:55:00 AM -- Akshay Mahajan +919833230562 http://trivialmatters.blogspot.com http://www.flickr.com/photos/lecercle/ From 2tahamehmood at googlemail.com Wed Apr 29 09:59:39 2009 From: 2tahamehmood at googlemail.com (Taha Mehmood) Date: Wed, 29 Apr 2009 05:29:39 +0100 Subject: [Reader-list] News Items posted on the net on Multipurpose National Identity Cards-113 Message-ID: <65be9bf40904282129q28686e9dg8da64ce3159d7db6@mail.gmail.com> http://economictimes.indiatimes.com/articleshow/msid-2328390,prtpage-1.cms Now, for the born identity 1 Sep 2007, 1100 hrs IST, S Srinivasan, TNN A year ago, when Mumbai was still recovering from the shock of the 7/11 serial train explosions, a man obtained four pre-paid mobile phone connections in the name of A N Roy and submitted a copy of a ration card, employment verification and some sort of an identity card (ID) as supporting documents. Only later, was it discovered that he was impersonating the city’s police chief and the documents had been forged. Around the same time, Haryana police discovered that the mobile phones used in various crimes had been taken in the names of innocent people and nearly 2 lakh ‘benami’ connections were active in the state alone. The scandals prompted the Department of Telecommunications (DoT) to order physical verification of all subscribers. Sixty years after its independence, India may have emerged as an economic power and a technology hub, but it still doesn’t know its citizens. Though that may be a daunting task. From mobile phone connections to border crossings, from welfare schemes to banking, the field remains open for all bogus operations depending on the lack of or confusion over identity. The government sometimes ends up giving welfare benefits to hustlers bringing phony records, while businesses are finding it impossible to extend their services to villages where keeoing records is nearly non-existent. Despite listing dozens of primary documents as identity proof, the country has not been able to issue even one such document to all its citizens. Thus, an urgent need has arisen for a national debate on why India is struggling to identify its citizens and what can be done to fix the problem? After all, with software powerhouses serving the globe from our backyard, it should be just a matter of some money and neat planning to create a country register of citizens. The government, too, is impatient to have a multipurpose national identity card system, if just to ward off illegal immigrants and the import of terrorism from across the borders. But questions are being raised on whether such a centralised, nationwide system would be an asset or a liability? It may be easy to dismiss the calls for national identification as the greedy urgings of big business, technology providers and card makers. It would be equally easy to brush off protests against the card system as the ravings of paranoid liberal forces. However, for the largely poor India, the need is to have hassle-free access to economic and social gains that only a national ID card may give. A senior civil servant, in a chat with ET, recalls the problems faced while providing relief to the survivors of the tsunami attack in December 2004. The first problem was the identification of the thousands of dead being washed ashore. The next was to decide who to give emergency relief supplies to, among the thousands of families queuing up. Indigent families from the hinterland, unaffected by the tsunami but still hungry and penniless, masqueraded as survivor families. Initially, when the government had not yet centralised the relief mechanism under its oversight, the strong and aggressive walked away with most of the relief from voluntary organisations. The meek and the old were left to fend for themselves. “We had to go through a very complicated process of identification of beneficiaries, because many families had lost their primary documents such as ration cards and electricity bills in the tsunami. Many families didn’t even have such documents (in any case),” says J Radhakrishnan, now additional finance secretary to the Tamil Nadu government, and the collector of Nagapattinam district, the mainland district worst affected by the killer waves, in early 2005. “In sheer anxiety to make sure they got relief, some claimed relief in two places. The husband would apply in his village and the wife would apply in her village,” he says. Authorities had to hold back benefits when such attempts were found out, adding to the overall desperation. In fact, poor identification systems and the resulting legal quarrels have forced the Madras High Court to put on hold the allotment of nearly 1,400 newly built houses, meant for tsunami survivors, in Chennai. Affected families live in temporary shelters nearly three years after the tragedy, unable to move into the empty houses waiting for the mighty keys of the law to turn. Unbankable identity The dilemma of doubtful identification is equally daunting in peace time. Banks, keen to step up their lending to rural and urban poor through their microfinance plans, come to a grinding halt when a potential customer fails to bring up any verifiable document. “How do I know whose credit I am checking?” asks Nachiket Mor, deputy managing director of ICICI Bank. A national identity card would remove the burden from the shoulders of business houses which will be able to transact with confidence, he says. In early 2006, the controversies related to the state-ordered closure of 50 branches of two MFIs in Andhra Pradesh highlighted, among other things, the problem of disparate customer databases. The same borrower took money from several MFIs, often borrowing from one to repay another, and none the wiser for it. Poor people couldn’t resist the temptation when institutions pushed offers to them, and ended up in a vicious spiral of indebtedness. Five years ago, India made a beginning to issue citizen ID cards, by proposing a pilot of Multipurpose National Identity Card (MNIC) project in select border districts. The main inspiration for the National Democratic Alliance leadership was the need to enhance national security and tackle infiltration of potential troublemakers from across the borders. The United Progressive Alliance , too, has continued with it, but the project is already mired in problems with a writ petition against the award of a contract and claims that many entries in the database had become outdated by now. Efforts to get the views of the government and officials of Bharat Electronics, a state-run company involved in the project, were not successful. But credit must be given to the government project for being able to issue two million cards so far, no mean task given the complexity of such a large project, a smart card technology official said. The Financial Information Network & Operations (FINO), which has issued two lakh smart cards to microfinance customers of various banks and wants to share its know-how with the government for the national card project, says processes very effective in small scale become useless at such high numbers. “After all, we are a country of numbers,” says FINO’s CEO Manish Khera. (See story below). No simplistic answers Paper or plastic cards would be useless for national identity because they can easily be forged. It is imperative that such a card has memory and keeps personal data about its holder, but in a country having 50 crore illiterate and semi-illiterate people, a biometric record such as fingerprints are the only viable signatures. But then, when one fingerprint is verified against 110 crore samples, thousands may be identified as possible matches. A simplistic system would only lead to confusion. Therefore, the first challenge for the government is to create a fail-safe system at such a large scale, Khera says. Many observers say the home ministry must involve the finance ministry in its national card project. The latter has the experience of issuing permanent account numbers to taxpayers and may also require to evolve fair-play systems for the recording of financial transactions on the card. The PAN card itself, if it could be upgraded to a smart card system and scope for multiple membership removed, can potentially serve as a national ID card. Next, the government must adopt innovative formats and involve a cross-section of the industry to increase the quality and speed up the pace of the MNIC project, Jagdish Rajpurohit, a maker of smart card personalisation systems and a litigant against the national project, says. His petition to the Bombay High Court challenging the award of a contract is still pending and he says the project, in its current form, will struggle to scale up or provide the back-end meaningful identification systems. His claim is that the government, its companies and a small team were all that were working on a project, trying everything, from design to manufacture to back-end maintenance. Several off-the-shelf technologies could be used and modern, interoperable systems chosen, to speed up the project. “The basic problem with the MNIC project is that it is run by bureaucrats. The technology framework for such a vital project should be decided by the industry, not by bureaucrats,” Rajpurohit says. “The project is necessary. Smart cards allow you to transact, monitor, record transactions... But the whole tragedy of this project has been that some people in the government have not realised that they are the end-users of the technology, not its propagators.” Supporters of the national ID card system say it can go beyond that scope and pack a lot of other documents, access rights and transaction records in them. Driver licences, ration cards, road and train tickets, toll passes and banking records can be stored in such a card. “The potential of a smart card-based ID card is limited only by the nation’s imagination,” says Rajpurohit. Stories across the world have both pleasant and ugly examples to show on the use of national identity cards. They also offers lessons to learn. (See box). Big brother watching? “The implementation of such a scheme represents a vast increase in police power; a troubling prospect given the state of Indian policing and the excessive control of the Executive in its functioning,” says Ravi Nair of South Asia Human Rights Documentation Centre, which has published papers on the precaution needed to be taken in a national ID card system. The national ID card system would have a centralised register of citizens that can be prone to hacking or data corruption, while it may be easy for anyone trying to pass off as a bonafide citizen to forge one national card than a bouquet of identity documents as of now. More importantly, it could lead to loss of privacy for the citizen, whose activities could be continuously monitored given the usage patterns of the ID card. But then, “the concerns do not necessarily mean that India’s planned MNIC programme must be discarded, but they signal a need for oversight to protect the privacy and equality rights,” Nair says. All things considered, India’s need to identify each of its citizens beyond doubt can hardly be emphasised, if it were to take the benefits of economic growth to those who need it the most and secure its sovereignty. But, the government must not design the card to suit itself, but the people it aims to protect. Yet, the identity crisis continues. (With inputs from Rashmi Pratap, Harsimran Julka) From phadkeshilpa at gmail.com Wed Apr 29 10:02:09 2009 From: phadkeshilpa at gmail.com (Shilpa Phadke) Date: Wed, 29 Apr 2009 10:02:09 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Fw: A must-read on the legality of publishing FIRs In-Reply-To: <00bb01c9c7ba$0fb4c740$0501a8c0@bishakha6bbb1b> References: <00bb01c9c7ba$0fb4c740$0501a8c0@bishakha6bbb1b> Message-ID: ----- Original Message ----- *From:* kabi cubby sherman *To:* faow ; femind; citizen-mumbai at googlegroups.com ; bishakha ; Subuhi Jiwani ; aen ; gayatrijsingh at yahoo.co.in ; shumona *Sent:* Monday, April 27, 2009 8:53 AM *Subject:* Advocate posting on media and FIR There is a very important posting by an advocate, Monica Sakhrani, on what we have been discussing about FIR, media, legalities, public documents. She explains well. I think it is essential reading for our understanding. Its called Free Speech and Breach of Privacy. Here is the link: http://loudandproudbombay.wordpress.com/ apologies for cross posting. Please distribute widely. best, kabi Meter Down - काली पीली की कहानी blog: http://meterdown.wordpress.com podcast: http://feeds2.feedburner.com/meterdown ------------------------------ Now surf faster and smarter ! Check out the new Firefox 3 - Yahoo! Edition * Click here! __._,_.___ Messages in this topic ( 1) Reply (via web post) | Start a new topic Messages| Files| Photos| Links| Database| Polls| Members| Calendar [image: Yahoo! Groups] Change settings via the Web(Yahoo! ID required) Change settings via email: Switch delivery to Daily Digest| Switch format to Traditional Visit Your Group | Yahoo! Groups Terms of Use | Unsubscribe Recent Activity Visit Your Group Yahoo! Mail Stay in Touch Stay connected and manage your life Yahoo! Toolbar Get it Free! easy 1-click access to your groups. Yahoo! Groups Start a group in 3 easy steps. Connect with others. . __,_._,___ From 2tahamehmood at googlemail.com Wed Apr 29 10:03:11 2009 From: 2tahamehmood at googlemail.com (Taha Mehmood) Date: Wed, 29 Apr 2009 05:33:11 +0100 Subject: [Reader-list] MNIC: Parliament Questions - 7 Message-ID: <65be9bf40904282133t39e3af84u465eedba6ae077cb@mail.gmail.com> http://164.100.47.132/psearch/QResult13.aspx?qref=5515 GOVERNMENT OF INDIA MINISTRY OF LAW , JUSTICE AND COMPANY AFFAIRS LOK SABHA UNSTARRED QUESTION NO 7619 ANSWERED ON 15.05.2000 PHOTO IDENTITY CARDS 7619 . Shri ANANDRAO VITHOBA ADSUL (a) whether large scale bungling worth crores of rupees has come to the notice of the Government in issuing photo identity cards to voters in the country; (b) if so, the details thereof; (c) whether the plan of the Government to issue photo identity cards to voters has proved a failure; (d) if so, the reason therefor; and (e) the action taken by the Government in this regard ? ANSWER MINISTER OF LAW, JUSTICE & COMPANY AFFAIRS (SHRI RAM JETHMALANI) (a) and (b) : The Comptroller and Auditor General of India has made certain observations, about underutilization of funds allotted for implementation of the scheme of Electors` Photo Identity Cards, excess/avoidable expenditure by some States due to non-observance of instructions issued by the Election Commission (vide para 4 of Chapter IV of its report for the year 1997, March, Vol.-III). (c) to (e) : No, sir. According to the Election Commission, the move to require production of these Photo Identity Cards or any other specified proof of identity in the recently held Assembly elections in Haryana has largely been welcomed. In that state, about 88% of electors have been issued these Cards and the data received from CEO, Haryana indicates that nearly 80 per cent of the electors produced them at the time of voting. The Commission has been continuously monitoring the progress of the scheme of issuance of Electors` Photo Identity Cards to ensure that all citizens registered as electors are issued defect free Identity Cards. About thirty-eight crore electors representing 62% of the eligible electors of the country have so far been provided Identity Cards. From chandni.parekh at gmail.com Wed Apr 29 11:19:46 2009 From: chandni.parekh at gmail.com (Chandni Parekh) Date: Wed, 29 Apr 2009 11:19:46 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Listing of Alternative/Documentary Film Screenings in India In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Dear all, You might want to check out/join the Vikalp at Prithvi group on Facebook. http://www.facebook.com/group.php?gid=46819848804 Ever since we started the group three months ago, we've posted about close to 100 documentary/non-mainstream film screenings held in India. You will also find information on call for films for festivals/awards. Best, Chandni. From kshmendra2005 at yahoo.com Wed Apr 29 15:10:45 2009 From: kshmendra2005 at yahoo.com (Kshmendra Kaul) Date: Wed, 29 Apr 2009 02:40:45 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Reader-list] The Mango Tree In-Reply-To: <654120.27714.qm@web94715.mail.in2.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <514248.86892.qm@web57201.mail.re3.yahoo.com> Dear Subhrodip   Sir!   1. May I first tell you how fascinated I am by the manner in which you (usually) construct your mails.   2. If typecasting a group / community with negative attributes is alright in any one case, then it has to be alright in every case. Such putting into compartments is very useful if the intention is to attack. It is counterproductive if the intent is to understand.   3. The reference to Pakistan was made because such an attitude towards the "Hindu Baniya" used to be ingrained into the psyche of Pakistanis through their school textbooks. I do not know how it is now. At least the remanants of that can still be found in their Media (especially TV). And it would appear amongst some in India too. Do we have to re-inforce them? Should we?   4. Imagine if everyone was liberal with such typecasting. No do not imagine it, just see it happening all around us day in and day out:   - Punjabis are this kind of people - Bengalis are this kind of people - Kashmiri Pandits are this kind of people - Kashmiri Muslims are this kind of people - Communists are this this kind of people - Capitalists are this kind of people - and on and on and on   You can see how such rigid proclamations destroy ....... (open ended)   Kshmendra --- On Tue, 4/28/09, subhrodip sengupta wrote: From: subhrodip sengupta Subject: Re: [Reader-list] The Mango Tree To: kshmendra2005 at yahoo.com Cc: "Readers list Yousuf Sarai." Date: Tuesday, April 28, 2009, 9:09 PM very true sir, but why give Paki tone to it? There are hindu punjabis, biharis non-baniyas etc who share the same thing for hindu baniyas, and a second class to the marwaris. They do and it is well-noted in Hindu literature, I can tell you  Bibhutibhusan, a bengali. And can for the sake of not attacking a caste, can we ignore it's tendancy? Ok, lets take it not that deeply, but strong feeling of author. From: Kshmendra Kaul To: reader-list ; Inder Salim Sent: Tuesday, 28 April, 2009 2:56:40 PM Subject: Re: [Reader-list] The Mango Tree """""" The 70-G-wallay are Baniyas (the traditional business community) and hence have a natural tendency to think about their personal benefits only.""""""   Natural tendency ? Sounds very racist.   Derogatory remarks about "baniyas" crop up most often on the Pakistani Media. It is more specific. It is the "Hindu Baniya". It used be taught that way in Pakistani school textbooks. Do not know if it still is.     Kshmendra --- On Mon, 4/27/09, Inder Salim wrote: From: Inder Salim Subject: [Reader-list] The Mango Tree To: "reader-list" Date: Monday, April 27, 2009, 10:14 PM -- THE MANGO TREE The centre of the universe is not the place where I am standing, but the Mango Tree in front of my balcony. But because of different seasons its centre of importance shifts,  particularly when there are no mangoes on its branches.. Almost a decade back, when I shifted into my flat, there was no such tree over there, but indeed a structure conducive for the growth of a Mango Tree, or any other tree, was always there. This space where these small and big trees exist belongs to the entire colony, a public space,  where people relish their evening strolls, or let  their children jump a little, and also scatter biscuit and chocolate wrapper around, carelessly. The Trees are mostly non-fruity ones, so everything is cool, except this Mango Tree. Right now, the entire colony is talking about this mango tree, but the flats which are directly facing this mango tree are constantly thinking about it. I am also looking at the mango tree, but among other things, what puzzles me is the question why the tree gives birth to hundreds of mangoes when it does not want its entire crop to grow? As I notice some little green mangoes keep on falling on the earth, naturally. Why? It fascinates me. This is perhaps, what we call mysteries of the nature, so no need to interfere or worry on that account.  But still there are plenty of mangoes on the tree, and everybody is silently looking at them, who simply want to eat them. But there is some helplessness in their looking at them. The reason for this is that the 70-G-wallay (family living in the Ground floor) happened to water this mango tree sometimes , and now they have the birth right to harvest the entire crop of this tree. True, I am witness to that, but I doubt if they  actually  had planted the tree. I believe, somebody had carelessly thrown a mango kernel into the park which has given birth to this controversial tree.  The 70-F-wallay, 70-S- wallay, and 70-T-wallay (families living in First, Second and Top floor) feel that they too have the right to eat some mangoes. These families live closer to this tree, but other families which are facing it too have the similar desire but, I guess the intensity of the desire to eat these mangoes is directly proportional to the distance of the eyes that are looking at this mango tree. The trouble is that the 70-G-wallay leave no stone unturned to ensure that the mango tree is under their control during the crop time. They don’t even let a singing bulbul, or a peaceful dove, let alone stray colony monkeys to come near this mango tree.    They use all the ways and means to keep the other away from the reach of this tree.  They must have even counted the number of mangoes on the tree which are still unripe, quite green but distinguishable from the green of its foliage. The 70-G-wallay are Baniyas (the traditional business community) and hence have a natural tendency to think about their personal benefits only. I must say, with some confidence, that such families are the predecessor families of the entire world capitalism, like monkey is known as the predecessor of the man.. A limited thought, but business is usually created to be inherited by their successors, usually sons. So, there is a tradition, to own the factory, an orchid, an oil well etc.  Right now, here in this colony, there are people who want the entire mango tree to be felled since they don’t get their share of mangoes, but there are people who are content with the idea of a tree alone. Although, the later category of people are quite in minority but they are happy that there is a place for a dove to make a nest, or twig for a squirrel  to jump from this tree to another tree. Yes, some children from outside,  say from other underprivileged families, whom I guess have never tasted a mango in their life, do come and try to steal a mango or two from this tree  by throwing a stone or a small stick. The 70-G-Wallay quickly come out from their flat and use all kinds of popular vernacular to chase them away. The rest of families again remain silent, who otherwise would not like these outside children to venture into the protected colony, where I too happen to own a flat. The result is that every year, the 70-G-wallay harvest the unripe crop lest it might be shared or stolen by others. The entire unripe-unripe crop is harvested, because the fear of losing the crop intensifies with the passing of each day, which is just good enough for  ordinary pickle at the best. The real mangos never see the light of the day. I don’t about the whole world, but in India, the nature of business is such that the entire crop of Mangoes is usually plucked from the branches while it is still growing, still green. The golden fruit becomes golden only in the dark rooms of Mandi (Fruit markets) where they are dumped for couple of days, or weeks, to hit the stalls on the very day they turn golden, golden red or golden green.  Who knows if some chemicals are injected into the mangoes to give them a more golden look, or make turn them even tastier? After all we are lured by products which are masked, glossed, either on TV, cinema, or in the Malls, or in the life directly. After all, the idea of mango is usually smarter than the actual mango. But there are spaces where Mangoes are allowed to turn golden on the trees itself, and subsequently relished with their maximum sugar and vitamin levels. But, as we know that is outside the structure of business and people like 70-G-wallay don’t have a clue about that. So, has anybody ever tasted a real mango? The question is that there is just one mango tree, and thousands of eyes on its couple of hundred odd mangoes on the tree. Right now, the people like 70-G-wallay who control the production of plant don’t let the mangos grow naturally. So they too have not tasted a mango, and neither let others to taste a real ripe one. So  has anybody tasted a real mango, if there is one, and if yes, who deserves to eat that, and relish? please press to see mangoes http://pics.livejournal.com/indersalim/pic/000hz44h/ With love Inder salim http://indersalim.livejournal.com _________________________________________ reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. Critiques & Collaborations To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with subscribe in the subject header. To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/>       _________________________________________ reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. Critiques & Collaborations To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with subscribe in the subject header. To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> Now surf faster and smarter ! Check out the new Firefox 3 - Yahoo! Edition * Click here! From pawan.durani at gmail.com Wed Apr 29 15:37:40 2009 From: pawan.durani at gmail.com (Pawan Durani) Date: Wed, 29 Apr 2009 15:37:40 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Pankaj Mishra on Wendy Doniger's The Hindus - An Alternative History In-Reply-To: <9073D2B5-C0D7-4356-A4B8-47FFCAD05DC7@sarai.net> References: <9073D2B5-C0D7-4356-A4B8-47FFCAD05DC7@sarai.net> Message-ID: <6b79f1a70904290307n66e60f66o64eb0a0a580c3caf@mail.gmail.com> Also read http://www.ivarta.com/columns/OL_040912.htm Rgds On Tue, Apr 28, 2009 at 6:32 PM, Monica Narula wrote: > Wendy Doniger's: The Hindus - An Alternative History > > Visiting India in 1921, E. M. Forster witnessed the eight-day > celebration of Lord Krishna’s birthday. This first encounter with > devotional ecstasy left the Bloomsbury aesthete baffled. “There is no > dignity, no taste, no form,” he complained in a letter home. Recoiling > from Hindu India, Forster was relieved to enter the relatively > rational world of Islam. Describing the muezzin’s call at the Taj > Mahal, he wrote, “I knew at all events where I stood and what I heard; > it was a land that was not merely atmosphere but had definite outlines > and horizons.” > > Forster, who later used his appalled fascination with India’s > polytheistic muddle to superb effect in his novel “A Passage to > India,” was only one in a long line of Britons who felt their notions > of order and morality challenged by Indian religious and cultural > practices. The British Army captain who discovered the erotic temples > of Khajuraho in the early 19th century was outraged by how “extremely > indecent and offensive” depictions of fornicating couples profaned a > “place of worship.” Lord Macaulay thundered against the worship, still > widespread in India today, of the Shiva lingam. Even Karl Marx > inveighed against how man, “the sovereign of nature,” had degraded > himself in India by worshipping Hanuman, the monkey god. > > Repelled by such pagan blasphemies, the first British scholars of > India went so far as to invent what we now call “Hinduism,” complete > with a mainstream classical tradition consisting entirely of Sanskrit > philosophical texts like the Bhagavad-Gita and the Upanishads. In > fact, most Indians in the 18th century knew no Sanskrit, the language > exclusive to Brahmins. For centuries, they remained unaware of the > hymns of the four Vedas or the idealist monism of the Upanishads that > the German Romantics, American Transcendentalists and other early > Indophiles solemnly supposed to be the very essence of Indian > civilization. (Smoking chillums and chanting “Om,” the Beats were > closer to the mark.) > > As Wendy Doniger, a scholar of Indian religions at the University of > Chicago, explains in her staggeringly comprehensive book, the British > Indologists who sought to tame India’s chaotic polytheisms had a > “Protestant bias in favor of scripture.” In “privileging” Sanskrit > over local languages, she writes, they created what has proved to be > an enduring impression of a “unified Hinduism.” And they found keen > collaborators among upper-caste Indian scholars and translators. This > British-Brahmin version of Hinduism — one of the many invented > traditions born around the world in the 18th and 19th centuries — has > continued to find many takers among semi-Westernized Hindus suffering > from an inferiority complex vis-à-vis the apparently more successful > and organized religions of Christianity, Judaism and Islam. > > The Hindu nationalists of today, who long for India to become a > muscular international power, stand in a direct line of 19th-century > Indian reform movements devoted to purifying and reviving a Hinduism > perceived as having grown too fragmented and weak. These mostly upper- > caste and middle-class nationalists have accelerated the modernization > and homogenization of “Hinduism.” > > Still, the nontextual, syncretic religious and philosophical > traditions of India that escaped the attention of British scholars > flourish even today. Popular devotional cults, shrines, festivals, > rites and legends that vary across India still form the worldview of a > majority of Indians. Goddesses, as Doniger writes, “continue to > evolve.” Bollywood produced the most popular one of my North Indian > childhood: Santoshi Mata, who seemed to fulfill the materialistic > wishes of newly urbanized Hindus. Far from being a slave to mindless > superstition, popular religious legend conveys a darkly ambiguous view > of human action. Revered as heroes in one region, the characters of > the great epics “Ramayana” and “Mahabharata” can be regarded as > villains in another. Demons and gods are dialectically interrelated in > a complex cosmic order that would make little sense to the theologians > of the so-called war on terror. > > Doniger sets herself the ambitious task of writing “a narrative > alternative to the one constituted by the most famous texts in > Sanskrit.” As she puts it, “It’s not all about Brahmins, Sanskrit, the > Gita.” It’s also not about perfidious Muslims who destroyed > innumerable Hindu temples and forcibly converted millions of Indians > to Islam. Doniger, who cannot but be aware of the political > historiography of Hindu nationalists, the most powerful interpreters > of Indian religions in both India and abroad today, also wishes to > provide an “alternative to the narrative of Hindu history that they > tell.” > > She writes at length about the devotional “bhakti” tradition, an > ecstatic and radically egalitarian form of Hindu religiosity which, > though possessing royal and literary lineage, was “also a folk and > oral phenomenon,” accommodating women, low-caste men and illiterates. > She explores, contra Marx, the role of monkeys as the “human > unconscious” in the “Ramayana,” the bible of muscular Hinduism, while > casting a sympathetic eye on its chief ogre, Ravana. And she examines > the mythology and ritual of Tantra, the most misunderstood of Indian > traditions. > > She doesn’t neglect high-table Hinduism. Her chapter on violence in > the “Mahabharata” is particularly insightful, highlighting the tragic > aspects of the great epic, and unraveling, in the process, the hoary > cliché of Hindus as doctrinally pacifist. Both “dharma” and “karma” > get their due. Those who tilt at organized religions today on behalf > of a residual Enlightenment rationalism may be startled to learn that > atheism and agnosticism have long traditions in Indian religions and > philosophies. > > Though the potted biographies of Mughal emperors seem superfluous in a > long book, Doniger’s chapter on the centuries of Muslim rule over > India helps dilute the lurid mythology of Hindu nationalists. > Motivated by realpolitik rather than religious fundamentalism, the > Mughals destroyed temples; they also built and patronized them. Not > only is there “no evidence of massive coercive conversion” to Islam, > but also so much of what we know as popular Hinduism — the currently > popular devotional cults of Rama and Krishna, the network of > pilgrimages, ashrams and sects — acquired its distinctive form during > Mughal rule. > > Doniger’s winsomely eclectic range of reference — she enlists Philip > Roth’s novel “I Married a Communist” for a description of the Hindu > renunciant’s psychology — begins to seem too determinedly eccentric > when she discusses Rudyard Kipling, a figure with no discernible > influence on Indian religions, with greater interpretative vigor than > she does Mohandas K. Gandhi, the most creative of modern devout > Hindus. More puzzlingly, Doniger has little to say about the forms > Indian cultures have assumed in Bali, Mauritius, Trinidad and Fiji, > even as she describes at length the Internet-enabled liturgies of > Hindus in America. > > Yet it is impossible not to admire a book that strides so intrepidly > into a polemical arena almost as treacherous as Israel- Arab > relations. During a lecture in London in 2003, Doniger escaped being > hit by an egg thrown by a Hindu nationalist apparently angry at the > “sexual thrust” of her interpretation of the “sacred” “Ramayana.” This > book will no doubt further expose her to the fury of the modern-day > Indian heirs of the British imperialists who invented “Hinduism.” > Happily, it will also serve as a salutary antidote to the fanatics who > perceive — correctly — the fluid existential identities and commodious > metaphysic of practiced Indian religions as a threat to their project > of a culturally homogenous and militant nation-state. > > Pankaj Mishra is the author of “An End to Suffering: The Buddha in the > World” and “Temptations of the West: How to Be Modern in India, > Pakistan, Tibet, and Beyond.” > > ============================================= > > Monica Narula > Raqs Media Collective > Sarai-CSDS > www.raqsmediacollective.net > www.sarai.net > > > > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > subscribe in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> From phadkeshilpa at gmail.com Wed Apr 29 19:14:30 2009 From: phadkeshilpa at gmail.com (Shilpa Phadke) Date: Wed, 29 Apr 2009 19:14:30 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Fwd: News: Christian fundamentalists hijack Singaporean feminist group In-Reply-To: <021d01c9c7c2$d4ad9ba0$0501a8c0@bishakha6bbb1b> References: <021d01c9c7c2$d4ad9ba0$0501a8c0@bishakha6bbb1b> Message-ID:  ----- Original Message ----- *From:* Ramlath Kavil *To:* Feminists India *Sent:* Monday, April 27, 2009 11:02 PM *Subject:* [feministsindia] News: Christian fundamentalists hijack Singaporean feminist group Christian fundamentalists hijack Singaporean feminist group Posted by Cory Doctorow, April 23, 2009 1:35 AM | permalink AWARE, a 25-year-old Singaporean women's right organization, recently found itself in turmoil after a coup orchestrated by conservative fundamentalist Christians who signed up in large numbers just before the annual general meeting, then elected a new executive that immediately purged the organization of all its traditional leadership down to the subcommittee chairs. AWARE held its annual general meeting (AGM) on 28 March 2009. There were over 100 people present. Of them, about 80 had only joined the organisation between January and March, one to three months before the meeting. Nine out of 12 executive committee (EXCO) places, including four Office Bearer positions, went to newcomers, who were voted in by wide majorities. There are wide-ranging suspicions that this "leadership grab" has been orchestrated by a well-organised group who do not share AWARE's values and who are seeking to use the name and the resources of a well-respected institution to further their own agenda. These concerns have been expressed not only by onlookers, but by older members of Aware... The new president, Josie Lau and 5 other Exco members belong to the same church, Church of Our Saviour. Given this, it is very likely, in our view, that they have acted in concert to take over AWARE. We do not know why as they have refused to disclose their reasons to either members of AWARE or to the press and this makes us even more worried. They, or persons whom they have been associated with, have written homophobic letters to the press. While that is their personal conviction to which they are entitled, we do not want AWARE to be made into a vehicle for any hidden agenda. Josie Lau, was in charge of the DBS Charity Drive in support of Focus On The Family, US-based Christian organisation that is opposed to abortion and equal rights for sexual minorities. This created a controversy last year which was well-documented. 160 members, including former AWARE committee members and founder members, petitioned for an extraordinary general meeting to consider a vote of no confidence in the New Exco on the basis that the New Exco has not acted and is not acting in the best interest of AWARE; does not appreciate or share the values of AWARE and does not have the requisite experience of carrying out AWARE's work or is otherwise inadequate to further AWARE's objectives. An EGM will be held on 2 May 2009. __._,_.___ Messages in this topic ( 1) Reply (via web post) | Start a new topic Messages| Files| Photos| Links| Database| Polls| Members| Calendar [image: Yahoo! Groups] Change settings via the Web(Yahoo! ID required) Change settings via email: Switch delivery to Daily Digest| Switch format to Traditional Visit Your Group | Yahoo! Groups Terms of Use | Unsubscribe Recent Activity Visit Your Group Yahoo! Mail Stay in Touch Stay connected and manage your life Yahoo! Toolbar Get it Free! easy 1-click access to your groups. Yahoo! Groups Start a group in 3 easy steps. Connect with others. . __,_._,___ From 2tahamehmood at googlemail.com Wed Apr 29 19:28:10 2009 From: 2tahamehmood at googlemail.com (Taha Mehmood) Date: Wed, 29 Apr 2009 14:58:10 +0100 Subject: [Reader-list] Modi bashing is secular.! In-Reply-To: <65be9bf40904290648g41d23ee2tec49b35fb4737d37@mail.gmail.com> References: <61164a90904280416g12de2330x5b61237fe22b46e6@mail.gmail.com> <65be9bf40904280806q137955dcy2a7a7bc113f1415c@mail.gmail.com> <61164a90904282254n4dc22de2n76316b7060e5497a@mail.gmail.com> <65be9bf40904290648g41d23ee2tec49b35fb4737d37@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <65be9bf40904290658x5ae4fce3lbd81102a025708e6@mail.gmail.com> Rajen Saheb! After reading your mail carefully, I think, I must concede, there was an error on my behalf. Therefore for the sake of clarity, let me just say, I am no position to express my reservations about a deeply polarizing figure like Modi. I will not say that he was a mass murderer, nor will I utter that he represents something which is detrimental to the idea of India. Which will be succeeded by my absolute silence on what many believe his complete disregard for small insignificant issues like morality in public life. In the same vein I hereby resolve to not discuss views of pedestal thinkers like Asis Nandy who describes Modi as ‘a classic, clinical case of a fascist’. Nandy uses ‘fascist’ as ‘a diagnostic category, comprising not only one’s ideological posture but also the personality traits and motivational patterns contextualising the ideology.’ Further more I will not look into what Nandy suggests, Modi to present a ‘mix of puritanical rigidity, narrowing of emotional life, massive use of the ego defence of projection, denial and fear of his own passions combined with fantasies of violence – all set within the matrix of clear paranoid and obsessive personality traits.’ I wish you well Rajen Saheb and I pray that all your dreams and desires that one day, Narenderbhai Modi becomes the prime minister of India may come true. Amen! Warm regards Taha From rahul_capri at yahoo.com Wed Apr 29 19:39:09 2009 From: rahul_capri at yahoo.com (Rahul Asthana) Date: Wed, 29 Apr 2009 07:09:09 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Reader-list] Pankaj Mishra on Wendy Doniger's The Hindus - An Alternative History In-Reply-To: <9073D2B5-C0D7-4356-A4B8-47FFCAD05DC7@sarai.net> Message-ID: <185181.38687.qm@web53604.mail.re2.yahoo.com> Another perspective on the hardening of the Hindu identiity http://sankrant.sulekha.com/blog/post/2003/02/need-i-belong-to-only-one-religion.htm --- On Tue, 4/28/09, Monica Narula wrote: > From: Monica Narula > Subject: [Reader-list] Pankaj Mishra on Wendy Doniger's The Hindus - An Alternative History > To: reader-list at sarai.net > Date: Tuesday, April 28, 2009, 6:32 PM > Wendy Doniger's: The Hindus - An Alternative History > > Visiting India in 1921, E. M. Forster witnessed the > eight-day > celebration of Lord Krishna’s birthday. This first > encounter with > devotional ecstasy left the Bloomsbury aesthete baffled. > “There is no > dignity, no taste, no form,” he complained in a letter > home. Recoiling > from Hindu India, Forster was relieved to enter the > relatively > rational world of Islam. Describing the muezzin’s call at > the Taj > Mahal, he wrote, “I knew at all events where I stood and > what I heard; > it was a land that was not merely atmosphere but had > definite outlines > and horizons.” > > Forster, who later used his appalled fascination with > India’s > polytheistic muddle to superb effect in his novel “A > Passage to > India,” was only one in a long line of Britons who felt > their notions > of order and morality challenged by Indian religious and > cultural > practices. The British Army captain who discovered the > erotic temples > of Khajuraho in the early 19th century was outraged by how > “extremely > indecent and offensive” depictions of fornicating couples > profaned a > “place of worship.” Lord Macaulay thundered against the > worship, still > widespread in India today, of the Shiva lingam. Even Karl > Marx > inveighed against how man, “the sovereign of nature,” > had degraded > himself in India by worshipping Hanuman, the monkey god. > > Repelled by such pagan blasphemies, the first British > scholars of > India went so far as to invent what we now call > “Hinduism,” complete > with a mainstream classical tradition consisting entirely > of Sanskrit > philosophical texts like the Bhagavad-Gita and the > Upanishads. In > fact, most Indians in the 18th century knew no Sanskrit, > the language > exclusive to Brahmins. For centuries, they remained unaware > of the > hymns of the four Vedas or the idealist monism of the > Upanishads that > the German Romantics, American Transcendentalists and other > early > Indophiles solemnly supposed to be the very essence of > Indian > civilization. (Smoking chillums and chanting “Om,” the > Beats were > closer to the mark.) > > As Wendy Doniger, a scholar of Indian religions at the > University of > Chicago, explains in her staggeringly comprehensive book, > the British > Indologists who sought to tame India’s chaotic > polytheisms had a > “Protestant bias in favor of scripture.” In > “privileging” Sanskrit > over local languages, she writes, they created what has > proved to be > an enduring impression of a “unified Hinduism.” And > they found keen > collaborators among upper-caste Indian scholars and > translators. This > British-Brahmin version of Hinduism — one of the many > invented > traditions born around the world in the 18th and 19th > centuries — has > continued to find many takers among semi-Westernized Hindus > suffering > from an inferiority complex vis-à-vis the apparently more > successful > and organized religions of Christianity, Judaism and Islam. > > The Hindu nationalists of today, who long for India to > become a > muscular international power, stand in a direct line of > 19th-century > Indian reform movements devoted to purifying and reviving a > Hinduism > perceived as having grown too fragmented and weak. These > mostly upper- > caste and middle-class nationalists have accelerated the > modernization > and homogenization of “Hinduism.” > > Still, the nontextual, syncretic religious and > philosophical > traditions of India that escaped the attention of British > scholars > flourish even today. Popular devotional cults, shrines, > festivals, > rites and legends that vary across India still form the > worldview of a > majority of Indians. Goddesses, as Doniger writes, > “continue to > evolve.” Bollywood produced the most popular one of my > North Indian > childhood: Santoshi Mata, who seemed to fulfill the > materialistic > wishes of newly urbanized Hindus. Far from being a slave to > mindless > superstition, popular religious legend conveys a darkly > ambiguous view > of human action. Revered as heroes in one region, the > characters of > the great epics “Ramayana” and “Mahabharata” can be > regarded as > villains in another. Demons and gods are dialectically > interrelated in > a complex cosmic order that would make little sense to the > theologians > of the so-called war on terror. > > Doniger sets herself the ambitious task of writing “a > narrative > alternative to the one constituted by the most famous texts > in > Sanskrit.” As she puts it, “It’s not all about > Brahmins, Sanskrit, the > Gita.” It’s also not about perfidious Muslims who > destroyed > innumerable Hindu temples and forcibly converted millions > of Indians > to Islam. Doniger, who cannot but be aware of the political > > historiography of Hindu nationalists, the most powerful > interpreters > of Indian religions in both India and abroad today, also > wishes to > provide an “alternative to the narrative of Hindu history > that they > tell.” > > She writes at length about the devotional “bhakti” > tradition, an > ecstatic and radically egalitarian form of Hindu > religiosity which, > though possessing royal and literary lineage, was “also a > folk and > oral phenomenon,” accommodating women, low-caste men and > illiterates. > She explores, contra Marx, the role of monkeys as the > “human > unconscious” in the “Ramayana,” the bible of muscular > Hinduism, while > casting a sympathetic eye on its chief ogre, Ravana. And > she examines > the mythology and ritual of Tantra, the most misunderstood > of Indian > traditions. > > She doesn’t neglect high-table Hinduism. Her chapter on > violence in > the “Mahabharata” is particularly insightful, > highlighting the tragic > aspects of the great epic, and unraveling, in the process, > the hoary > cliché of Hindus as doctrinally pacifist. Both > “dharma” and “karma” > get their due. Those who tilt at organized religions today > on behalf > of a residual Enlightenment rationalism may be startled to > learn that > atheism and agnosticism have long traditions in Indian > religions and > philosophies. > > Though the potted biographies of Mughal emperors seem > superfluous in a > long book, Doniger’s chapter on the centuries of Muslim > rule over > India helps dilute the lurid mythology of Hindu > nationalists. > Motivated by realpolitik rather than religious > fundamentalism, the > Mughals destroyed temples; they also built and patronized > them. Not > only is there “no evidence of massive coercive > conversion” to Islam, > but also so much of what we know as popular Hinduism — > the currently > popular devotional cults of Rama and Krishna, the network > of > pilgrimages, ashrams and sects — acquired its distinctive > form during > Mughal rule. > > Doniger’s winsomely eclectic range of reference — she > enlists Philip > Roth’s novel “I Married a Communist” for a > description of the Hindu > renunciant’s psychology — begins to seem too > determinedly eccentric > when she discusses Rudyard Kipling, a figure with no > discernible > influence on Indian religions, with greater interpretative > vigor than > she does Mohandas K. Gandhi, the most creative of modern > devout > Hindus. More puzzlingly, Doniger has little to say about > the forms > Indian cultures have assumed in Bali, Mauritius, Trinidad > and Fiji, > even as she describes at length the Internet-enabled > liturgies of > Hindus in America. > > Yet it is impossible not to admire a book that strides so > intrepidly > into a polemical arena almost as treacherous as Israel- > Arab > relations. During a lecture in London in 2003, Doniger > escaped being > hit by an egg thrown by a Hindu nationalist apparently > angry at the > “sexual thrust” of her interpretation of the > “sacred” “Ramayana.” This > book will no doubt further expose her to the fury of the > modern-day > Indian heirs of the British imperialists who invented > “Hinduism.” > Happily, it will also serve as a salutary antidote to the > fanatics who > perceive — correctly — the fluid existential identities > and commodious > metaphysic of practiced Indian religions as a threat to > their project > of a culturally homogenous and militant nation-state. > > Pankaj Mishra is the author of “An End to Suffering: The > Buddha in the > World” and “Temptations of the West: How to Be Modern > in India, > Pakistan, Tibet, and Beyond.” > > ============================================= > > Monica Narula > Raqs Media Collective > Sarai-CSDS > www.raqsmediacollective.net > www.sarai.net > > > > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to > reader-list-request at sarai.net with subscribe in the subject > header. > To unsubscribe: > https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: > <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> From indersalim at gmail.com Wed Apr 29 21:46:04 2009 From: indersalim at gmail.com (Inder Salim) Date: Wed, 29 Apr 2009 21:46:04 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] The Mango Tree In-Reply-To: <74762f4e0904290622n63e34b30q7f8792dd66bcd792@mail.gmail.com> References: <47e122a70904270944x5e96e1e0n3a37551bd447ae63@mail.gmail.com> <74762f4e0904290622n63e34b30q7f8792dd66bcd792@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <47e122a70904290916h50fbd77bm6037a02e33c553e3@mail.gmail.com> Dear Sophea thanks for this wonderful report on real mangoes i knew there are places in the world where mangoes are free to be eaten by people. ah i like utopias, and here is a place where actually we can touch our dreams.....as realized. i wish people from other countries too could sneak without fear into these parks to eat free mangoes . perhaps, then these mangoes can be genuinely labeled as real mangoes, i dont know, how much of earth's space is left to develop a FREE relationship with PEOPLE , very very little anyway, thanks again IS ........................................................ Dear Kshmendara thanks again about generalizing every identity sound in one way, is sometimes problematic, I said, there is a Bainya ( trader ) in each one of us which is akin to saying there is a fascist in each one of us, right there is, which is again similar to saying there is a 'shudra/dalit' ( lower caste ) in each one of us, like a woman in each one of us, but to say there is a punjabi or a bengal or a kashmiri in each one of us will be wrong, there is a difference. and again kashmiri pandits, or brahmins or any a jew is not derogratory to the person who is born in such a family, because they is some hierarchy. so, here again, Beniya is too not derogatory, unlike Bihari, with love and regards IS On Wed, Apr 29, 2009 at 6:52 PM, sophea wrote: > So, > has anybody ever tasted a real mango? > > hello inder > > i just got back from sydney where it is not mango season to enjoy the > fact that it is here :) > in northern new south wales, in australia, there are many towns where > mango trees grow in public parks and are free for public picking. one > such town is murwillumbah, where my sister used to live, and where i > happened to visit her during mango season in 2004. while i was > visiting we found a tree full of ripe mangoes in a public ark one day, > my brother in law climbed up and shook the tree and we went home with > 40kg of ripe mangoes.  what was surprising for me was that people who > grew up in the area were so used to abundant mangoes all their lives > that some people were even sick of eating them. but in any case, where > the fruit trees were growing in public places their fruit was for > public consumption. i don't know the law exactly but i think that even > if it is hanging over the wall into public that fruit can be plucked > and eaten. it would be interesting to know what the legal basis is for > that family to be taking the common fruit for itself... after your > story i shall now become a nosey neighbour and keep a curious eye on > what happens to the mangoes on the tree next to my balcony too! > > .sophea > -- http://indersalim.livejournal.com From yasir.media at gmail.com Wed Apr 29 22:15:44 2009 From: yasir.media at gmail.com (=?windows-1256?B?eWFzaXIgfu3HINPR?=) Date: Wed, 29 Apr 2009 21:45:44 +0500 Subject: [Reader-list] Culture SOS - Censorship, State & Society - 530pm Thu 30 Apr 09 In-Reply-To: <5af37bb0904290927j5db5fea9v1b3b7f89ec1d3320@mail.gmail.com> References: <5af37bb0904290805u6f95878aqf86d3aa7851539a8@mail.gmail.com> <5af37bb0904290927j5db5fea9v1b3b7f89ec1d3320@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <5af37bb0904290945q25ebb6cakb1befabeafdb269c@mail.gmail.com> [Karachi, Pakistan] ** Censorship, State & Society - 530pm Thu 30 Apr 09 *** Culture SOS is meeting http://maujmedia.blogspot.com/2009/04/meeting-censorship-state-society-thu-30.html Please call as many people persons as possible interested in issues related to censorship, state and society. Please participate. Media coverage is NOT required at this point. * Fomma Art Centre * Zamzama Park, DHA Thursday April 30, 2009 Time: 5:30 pm Niilofur Farrukh Yasir Husain * CultureSOS * members are concerned citizens of Pakistan. CultureSOS takes preventive & curative steps against attacks on Expression, Public life and the Public Sphere. CultureSOS upholds the Freedom of Expression for all. CultureSOS has 40 very creative people in it. Please join in the fun ! - - - - ------------  and forward this to your best friends ------------.`&%#@&^ > http://maujmedia.blogspot.com/2009/04/meeting-censorship-state-society-thu-30.html From aliak77 at gmail.com Thu Apr 30 06:38:53 2009 From: aliak77 at gmail.com (Kath O'Donnell) Date: Thu, 30 Apr 2009 11:08:53 +1000 Subject: [Reader-list] The Mango Tree In-Reply-To: <47e122a70904290916h50fbd77bm6037a02e33c553e3@mail.gmail.com> References: <47e122a70904270944x5e96e1e0n3a37551bd447ae63@mail.gmail.com> <74762f4e0904290622n63e34b30q7f8792dd66bcd792@mail.gmail.com> <47e122a70904290916h50fbd77bm6037a02e33c553e3@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <383607190904291808p7eea0fcbs6ec5a9fc82b9a5a9@mail.gmail.com> hi Inder, my mango eating experience is also from Australia similar to Sophea's. mangoes are also grown in Queensland which is on the east coast of Australia, to the North - some of the best (imo) come from Bowen which is a town on the edge of the Whitsunday Islands. we had relatives living there, so in summer, when we were children we'd be sent a couple of cases of Bowen mangoes. this would be a real treat, and some of the other neighbourhood kids would come over to share in the treats. Mum would make us eat them outside in our togs (swimsuits) with the hose next to us as it was a really messy affair. we just peeled them and ate - they were very sweet, sometimes a little stringy towards the end. we'd end up with mango juice all over our faces and hands and have to hose ourselves off then run around in the sunshine. we didn't dice the mangoes or slice them into more manageable & less messy pieces as people do these days - the mess was part of the fun. and yes, I've also heard (in Brisbane) that if the fruit hangs over the fence into your yard or the footpath then you can pick the mango and eat it. no one seems to worry as there's usually an abundance of fruit which otherwise ends up falling off the trees to the ground and the birds eat them and go a little silly - they seem to become drunk on too many. the mango trees fruit in yards in Brisbane aren't as nice as the Bowen mangos though - I suppose they're a slightly different species? (not sure) I had mangoes whilst in Delhi, and I was told they were famous in India (I forget which city - somewhere South?) but they didn't taste as sweet and juicy as the mangoes from my childhood. though memories have a way of doing that to something when you try it again later. plus I had them in a restaurant, and to me, that's just not the place / way to eat mangoes properly!! you need to be out in the sunshine making a mess. :) I hope your community can work out a way to share the mangoes and enjoy them in the summertime. kath From pkray11 at gmail.com Thu Apr 30 10:09:20 2009 From: pkray11 at gmail.com (prakash ray) Date: Thu, 30 Apr 2009 10:09:20 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Maoists violence Message-ID: <98f331e00904292139la009740p47d6356240fed4cb@mail.gmail.com> Dear all, After many mindless violent attacks in Jharkhand, Bihar, Chhatisgarh and Andhra Pradesh during the first two legs of the general Elections, the Maoist terror is targetting the election process in West Bengal. Within one hour, they have attacked more than a half dozen places. These attacks have once again exposed the ideological and political bankruptcy of the Maoist terror. The time has come to take a firm ressolve to fight these goons. However, it is a matter of commom knowledge that many leaders from the Congress, the BJP, the TMC and the JMM are providing shelter and support to the Maoists for their own political and criminal advantages. One can only hope that the next government at the centre with the state authorities will do something to end this menace. PKR From ysaeed7 at yahoo.com Thu Apr 30 11:07:13 2009 From: ysaeed7 at yahoo.com (Yousuf) Date: Wed, 29 Apr 2009 22:37:13 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Reader-list] India's Shame: The Ordeal of Cynthia Mahmood Message-ID: <219325.56907.qm@web51407.mail.re2.yahoo.com> India's Shame: The Personal Ordeal of Cynthia Mahmood http://sikhchic.com/article-detail.php?cat=21&id=817 From sub_sengupta at yahoo.co.in Thu Apr 30 12:40:11 2009 From: sub_sengupta at yahoo.co.in (subhrodip sengupta) Date: Thu, 30 Apr 2009 12:40:11 +0530 (IST) Subject: [Reader-list] Fw: The Mango Tree Message-ID: <962224.83519.qm@web94704.mail.in2.yahoo.com> ----- Forwarded Message ---- From: subhrodip sengupta To: kshmendra2005 at yahoo.com Sent: Thursday, 30 April, 2009 12:35:20 PM Subject: Re: [Reader-list] The Mango Tree Dear Kshmendra,                thans for your well-sorted out response, indeed making caste of society fight against each other wouldnt put an end to the tendancies which we are critiqing, neither would nation-chauvinist attitude help, whatever qualm I might have with my neighbour, I would not implant a bomb in his territory, that would harm many others,(who knows, including kids of my family?), but somewhere within the motions of the society, do we find tendencies, dominant ones, once subscibed to by a certain caste, now having spread to many leading such a lifestyle. These then become 'values', values of deserting ones old parents and going abroad, values ofstaying away from ones family for days together, or other values not necessarily concerned with this such as late night partying, rave-partying etc. For some it is inevitable, irresistable, to quote one of the leaders 'sar char kar bole' to othe it becomes intolerable, and infringing into their peace of mind, so that they decide to step ahead and do something about it! When there is a miniature genocide, some look at it as a miniature civil war, some even say it is terror sponsored, some say it challenges the integrity of nation as they take sides of police, and consciously or otherwise favour the vested interests ehom the regime, I should say alas was favouring consciously, some others say it was a Genocide. The questions involved are those of scales, values, and whoch motions does one identify using those values. Some values of the Baniyas has been kept alive in the mordern, indeed many ofhrough a our indegenous businessmen are caste biased, and they'll take you a story of rishtadari, thiugh they may not even trace back the long chain, what they mean is Jati, or may be sharing the same gotra, though the latter is rarely the case. As Inder has noted, I am greatful that he did, I would like to go a bitt off his analysis which I find a bit spiritualstic, I would rather, sourly(like an unripe mango) say these tendencies materialise, but again jati-system did some harshness to the women, so knowing the 'spirits' of by fellow people, I would not like to provide a deterministic tone, progeny being a vital factor in the villages, 'Ok am a baniya, my forefathers thought like this, I must share the same thoughts!' Sometimes by using strange words you may force somebody to think, when you deny certain values in your speeches, you force people to recognise rergressive tendancies, when you swear to cut the hands of people who disturb members of your community, or that police tortured you saying your mom is a muslim, you are reminding people of counter communal tendancies, and the nature of secularism, from it's positive dictionary meaning,to secular governments intent(implications), why is it silent to your people, people, to whom we are communicating do have their own abilty to judge things, they do know, who this policeman is, better than many of us who stay in AC rooms and rely on mainly influential contacts to get the slightest works done, and they do decide based on their own judgement, values and interests, whether they want to live together or fight, whom to support and to what extent, when SSC results are not published before elections, I do see some arrangement in that independant fair function of the soverign state too, and thats why I often quote these elections in most places are a struggle for the nation not for it's people, for people would include into similar class people whom you do not like, and would be negative towards, thats where excessive Nation Chauvinism, calling Pakistani gives a value judgement of whatg you think about them, doesnt strongly bother me for I do not spend sleepless nights thinking about democracy or SWAT valley issues either, but might rightly bother some muslim brothers as some hindu brothers get bothered when they find a hindu in Pakistan in distress.  And yes, when values need to be changed they need to be uprooted, isolated from the value system, so that they do not come back due to any accident, yes in this ecological or say eco-feminist challenge to such practises under Capitalist farming, we are reminded of many other adulterations from injections to colours to our well loved leaves (saags) to baingans, and pumpkins to our coloured potatoes, of how we do not know to jugje vegatbles, but turn essentially fetish, I also share my angush in which restaurants serve salads, ok some of them. The question then is about realising that such practises exist and to resist them ,not resist or fight against each other. THE idea is to influence and persuade people dominated by some practises not to do so, to uproot such values so that contertendancies do nor revrse them I call this phenomenon Majburi, the Object was a Mango, and how many of us again started fighting over it, People are instrinctively too chauvinist to correct themselves and this relates to how efficient one is, this applies to feudal ruling classes. When someone talks of Singur or Nandigram (polar issues), I do not feel ashamed, well MY dad is neither a a supprter of Sir Tata nor is he Tata himself, nor was I responsible to any big extent(so that epole do not crowd me for being insensitive) for the rape of this girl. One has to know why the other person is behaving thus, may be he is wrong, may be he is right! Else the idea of kin-pride, Nationalism etc is only to justify power and hiding the potent evil in their garbs, when some disturbance disarrays these evils, chaos starts which need to be Justified, but Alas can not be always!        By the way does one know who the author of this passage is? IF somebody can get me the answer, I'd be greatful. thanks for reading(open ended) ________________________________ From: Kshmendra Kaul To: subhrodip sengupta Cc: Readers list Yousuf Sarai. Sent: Wednesday, 29 April, 2009 3:10:45 PM Subject: Re: [Reader-list] The Mango Tree Dear Subhrodip Sir! 1. May I first tell you how fascinated I am by the manner in which you (usually) construct your mails. 2. If typecasting a group / community with negative attributes is alright in any one case, then it has to be alright in every case. Such putting into compartments is very useful if the intention is to attack. It is counterproductive if the intent is to understand. 3. The reference to Pakistan was made because such an attitude towards the "Hindu Baniya" used to be ingrained into the psyche of Pakistanis through their school textbooks. I do not know how it is now. At least the remanants of that can still be found in their Media (especially TV). And it would appear amongst some in India too. Do we have to re-inforce them? Should we? 4. Imagine if everyone was liberal with such typecasting. No do not imagine it, just see it happening all around us day in and day out: - Punjabis are this kind of people - Bengalis are this kind of people - Kashmiri Pandits are this kind of people - Kashmiri Muslims are this kind of people - Communists are this this kind of people - Capitalists are this kind of people - and on and on and on You can see how such rigid proclamations destroy ....... (open ended) Kshmendra --- On Tue, 4/28/09, subhrodip sengupta wrote: From: subhrodip sengupta Subject: Re: [Reader-list] The Mango Tree To: kshmendra2005 at yahoo.com Cc: "Readers list Yousuf Sarai." Date: Tuesday, April 28, 2009, 9:09 PM very true sir, but why give Paki tone to it? There are hindu punjabis, biharis non-baniyas etc who share the same thing for hindu baniyas, and a second class to the marwaris. They do and it is well-noted in Hindu literature, I can tell you  Bibhutibhusan, a bengali. And can for the sake of not attacking a caste, can we ignore it's tendancy? Ok, lets take it not that deeply, but strong feeling of author. ________________________________ From: Kshmendra Kaul To: reader-list ; Inder Salim Sent: Tuesday, 28 April, 2009 2:56:40 PM Subject: Re: [Reader-list] The Mango Tree """""" The 70-G-wallay are Baniyas (the traditional business community) and hence have a natural tendency to think about their personal benefits only.""""""   Natural tendency ? Sounds very racist.   Derogatory remarks about "baniyas" crop up most often on the Pakistani Media. It is more specific. It is the "Hindu Baniya". It used be taught that way in Pakistani school textbooks. Do not know if it still is.     Kshmendra --- On Mon, 4/27/09, Inder Salim wrote: From: Inder Salim Subject: [Reader-list] The Mango Tree To: "reader-list" Date: Monday, April 27, 2009, 10:14 PM -- THE MANGO TREE The centre of the universe is not the place where I am standing, but the Mango Tree in front of my balcony. But because of different seasons its centre of importance shifts,  particularly when there are no mangoes on its branches.. Almost a decade back, when I shifted into my flat, there was no such tree over there, but indeed a structure conducive for the growth of a Mango Tree, or any other tree, was always there. This space where these small and big trees exist belongs to the entire colony, a public space,  where people relish their evening strolls, or let  their children jump a little, and also scatter biscuit and chocolate wrapper around, carelessly. The Trees are mostly non-fruity ones, so everything is cool, except this Mango Tree. Right now, the entire colony is talking about this mango tree, but the flats which are directly facing this mango tree are constantly thinking about it. I am also looking at the mango tree, but among other things, what puzzles me is the question why the tree gives birth to hundreds of mangoes when it does not want its entire crop to grow? As I notice some little green mangoes keep on falling on the earth, naturally. Why? It fascinates me. This is perhaps, what we call mysteries of the nature, so no need to interfere or worry on that account.  But still there are plenty of mangoes on the tree, and everybody is silently looking at them, who simply want to eat them. But there is some helplessness in their looking at them. The reason for this is that the 70-G-wallay (family living in the Ground floor) happened to water this mango tree sometimes , and now they have the birth right to harvest the entire crop of this tree. True, I am witness to that, but I doubt if they  actually  had planted the tree. I believe, somebody had carelessly thrown a mango kernel into the park which has given birth to this controversial tree.  The 70-F-wallay, 70-S- wallay, and 70-T-wallay (families living in First, Second and Top floor) feel that they too have the right to eat some mangoes. These families live closer to this tree, but other families which are facing it too have the similar desire but, I guess the intensity of the desire to eat these mangoes is directly proportional to the distance of the eyes that are looking at this mango tree. The trouble is that the 70-G-wallay leave no stone unturned to ensure that the mango tree is under their control during the crop time. They don’t even let a singing bulbul, or a peaceful dove, let alone stray colony monkeys to come near this mango tree.    They use all the ways and means to keep the other away from the reach of this tree.  They must have even counted the number of mangoes on the tree which are still unripe, quite green but distinguishable from the green of its foliage. The 70-G-wallay are Baniyas (the traditional business community) and hence have a natural tendency to think about their personal benefits only. I must say, with some confidence, that such families are the predecessor families of the entire world capitalism, like monkey is known as the predecessor of the man.. A limited thought, but business is usually created to be inherited by their successors, usually sons. So, there is a tradition, to own the factory, an orchid, an oil well etc.  Right now, here in this colony, there are people who want the entire mango tree to be felled since they don’t get their share of mangoes, but there are people who are content with the idea of a tree alone. Although, the later category of people are quite in minority but they are happy that there is a place for a dove to make a nest, or twig for a squirrel  to jump from this tree to another tree. Yes, some children from outside,  say from other underprivileged families, whom I guess have never tasted a mango in their life, do come and try to steal a mango or two from this tree  by throwing a stone or a small stick. The 70-G-Wallay quickly come out from their flat and use all kinds of popular vernacular to chase them away.. The rest of families again remain silent, who otherwise would not like these outside children to venture into the protected colony, where I too happen to own a flat. The result is that every year, the 70-G-wallay harvest the unripe crop lest it might be shared or stolen by others. The entire unripe-unripe crop is harvested, because the fear of losing the crop intensifies with the passing of each day, which is just good enough for  ordinary pickle at the best. The real mangos never see the light of the day. I don’t about the whole world, but in India, the nature of business is such that the entire crop of Mangoes is usually plucked from the branches while it is still growing, still green. The golden fruit becomes golden only in the dark rooms of Mandi (Fruit markets) where they are dumped for couple of days, or weeks, to hit the stalls on the very day they turn golden, golden red or golden green.  Who knows if some chemicals are injected into the mangoes to give them a more golden look, or make turn them even tastier? After all we are lured by products which are masked, glossed, either on TV, cinema, or in the Malls, or in the life directly. After all, the idea of mango is usually smarter than the actual mango. But there are spaces where Mangoes are allowed to turn golden on the trees itself, and subsequently relished with their maximum sugar and vitamin levels. But, as we know that is outside the structure of business and people like 70-G-wallay don’t have a clue about that. So, has anybody ever tasted a real mango? The question is that there is just one mango tree, and thousands of eyes on its couple of hundred odd mangoes on the tree. Right now, the people like 70-G-wallay who control the production of plant don’t let the mangos grow naturally. So they too have not tasted a mango, and neither let others to taste a real ripe one. So  has anybody tasted a real mango, if there is one, and if yes, who deserves to eat that, and relish? please press to see mangoes http://pics.livejournal.com/indersalim/pic/000hz44h/ With love Inder salim http://indersalim.livejournal.com _________________________________________ reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. Critiques & Collaborations To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with subscribe in the subject header. To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/>       _________________________________________ reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. Critiques & Collaborations To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai..net with subscribe in the subject header. To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> ________________________________ Now surf faster and smarter ! Check out the new Firefox 3 - Yahoo! Edition * Click here! ________________________________ From Chandigarh to Chennai - find friends all over India. Click here. Own a website.Get an unlimited package.Pay next to nothing.*Go to http://in.business.yahoo.com/ From sub_sengupta at yahoo.co.in Thu Apr 30 15:02:06 2009 From: sub_sengupta at yahoo.co.in (subhrodip sengupta) Date: Thu, 30 Apr 2009 15:02:06 +0530 (IST) Subject: [Reader-list] Sundry affairs? a joke and a news Message-ID: <882599.5205.qm@web94712.mail.in2.yahoo.com> Joke Job fair.(from google) Job Fair A jock and a geek applying for the same job. The boss said, "Boys, you need to take a test before you can get this job." So they took the test and the next day they came back to see who the boss chose. "Well," he said, "Both of you got the same score except I'm going to choose the geek." The jock complained, "Don't you think that's prejudice or something?" "Well," the boss said, "Let me tell you what happened. Both of your papers were right all the way through until the last question came up, and the geek answered 'I don't know,' and then when I looked at your paper, you answered, 'Me either'.             And a newspiece. Peaceful, but low voting for Kashmir's Anantnag seat Few voters came out to vote in the south Kashmir parliamentary constituency of Anantnag with only 4% turnout recorded in the first three hours of polling. Now surf faster and smarter ! Check out the new Firefox 3 - Yahoo! Edition http://downloads.yahoo.com/in/firefox/?fr=om_email_firefox From kshmendra2005 at yahoo.com Thu Apr 30 15:33:03 2009 From: kshmendra2005 at yahoo.com (Kshmendra Kaul) Date: Thu, 30 Apr 2009 03:03:03 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Reader-list] Maoists violence In-Reply-To: <98f331e00904292139la009740p47d6356240fed4cb@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <754983.11158.qm@web57206.mail.re3.yahoo.com> What is Maoism?   >From Wikipedia (1) : """"""Maoism, ......... is a variant of Marxism derived from the teachings of the late Chinese leader Mao Zedong""""""    The Maoists would seem to be more connected to Marxists and Communists. Makes suspicious P K Ray's claim of "common knowledge" that  " that many leaders from the Congress, the BJP, the TMC and the JMM are providing shelter and support to the Maoists for their own political and criminal advantages."   >From Wikipedia (2): """"The basic tenets of Maoism include revolutionary struggle of the vast majority of people against what they term the exploiting classes and their state structures, termed a People's War. """""   That again would seem to be what the Communists of India should be doing. PK Ray seems to suggest that the Maoists are dumb idiots who have sold their ideological souls to "Congress, the BJP, the TMC and the JMM"      >From Wikipedia (3): """"" Usually involving peasants, its military strategies have involved guerrilla war tactics focused on surrounding the cities from the countryside, with a heavy emphasis on political transformation through the mass involvement of the basic people of the society. Maoism departs from conventional European-inspired Marxism in that its focus is on the agrarian countryside, rather than the industrial urban forces.""""   Ahhhhh! Now it makes sense as to why the Communits are badmouthing the Maoists instead of embracing them as soulmates subscribing to a somewhat common ideology.   The Communists in India, by and large, confined their activities around the 'workers' in the Organised Industries Sector. That addressed a tiny number from the total of the "workers" in India suffering exploitation who predominantly were in the Agricultural and other Rural Sectors.   Political activism like Maoism (Naxalism) tried to attend to the sufferings of the "workers" in the Agricultural and other Rural Sectors.   These are the "workers" who have been 'ignored by the Communists'. Powerful Political Space that did not interest the Communists and which they have lost out on although the Communist should have been the ones most active in it. No wonder the Communists whine.     Kshmendra --- On Thu, 4/30/09, prakash ray wrote: From: prakash ray Subject: [Reader-list] Maoists violence To: reader-list at sarai.net Date: Thursday, April 30, 2009, 10:09 AM Dear all, After many mindless violent attacks in Jharkhand, Bihar, Chhatisgarh and Andhra Pradesh during the first two legs of the general Elections, the Maoist terror is targetting the election process in West Bengal. Within one hour, they have attacked more than a half dozen places. These attacks have once again exposed the ideological and political bankruptcy of the Maoist terror. The time has come to take a firm ressolve to fight these goons. However, it is a matter of commom knowledge that many leaders from the Congress, the BJP, the TMC and the JMM are providing shelter and support to the Maoists for their own political and criminal advantages. One can only hope that the next government at the centre with the state authorities will do something to end this menace. PKR _________________________________________ reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. Critiques & Collaborations To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with subscribe in the subject header. To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> From indersalim at gmail.com Thu Apr 30 15:58:35 2009 From: indersalim at gmail.com (Inder Salim) Date: Thu, 30 Apr 2009 15:58:35 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] The Mango Tree In-Reply-To: <383607190904291808p7eea0fcbs6ec5a9fc82b9a5a9@mail.gmail.com> References: <47e122a70904270944x5e96e1e0n3a37551bd447ae63@mail.gmail.com> <74762f4e0904290622n63e34b30q7f8792dd66bcd792@mail.gmail.com> <47e122a70904290916h50fbd77bm6037a02e33c553e3@mail.gmail.com> <383607190904291808p7eea0fcbs6ec5a9fc82b9a5a9@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <47e122a70904300328x7efa88beq25fa2acf6e3d9b89@mail.gmail.com> Thanks dear Kath both yours and Sphea have relished free mangoes is a pleasant news , probably from an area which was not owned by anybody, but nevertheless there are spaces where people have a healthy relationship with earth and its products. but that is so limited, alas settling issues of equal distribution issue with others in community is what i dont how, and whom shall we empower to decide, as i said there thousands of eys and one mango tree. so it is almost difficult in kashmir there is thousand of apricot trees on road side and people are fee to eat, thanks for your comment in the blog as well love IS On Thu, Apr 30, 2009 at 6:38 AM, Kath O'Donnell wrote: > hi Inder, my mango eating experience is also from Australia similar to > Sophea's. mangoes are also grown in Queensland which is on the east > coast of Australia, to the North - some of the best (imo) come from > Bowen which is a town on the edge of the Whitsunday Islands. we had > relatives living there, so in summer, when we were children we'd be > sent a couple of cases of Bowen mangoes. this would be a real treat, > and some of the other neighbourhood kids would come over to share in > the treats. Mum would make us eat them outside in our togs (swimsuits) > with the hose next to us as it was a really messy affair. we just > peeled them and ate - they were very sweet, sometimes a little stringy > towards the end. we'd end up with mango juice all over our faces and > hands and have to hose ourselves off then run around in the sunshine. > we didn't dice the mangoes or slice them into more manageable & less > messy pieces as people do these days - the mess was part of the fun. > > and yes, I've also heard (in Brisbane) that if the fruit hangs over > the fence into your yard or the footpath then you can pick the mango > and eat it. no one seems to worry as there's usually an abundance of > fruit which otherwise ends up falling off the trees to the ground and > the birds eat them and go a little silly - they seem to become drunk > on too many. the mango trees fruit in yards in Brisbane aren't as nice > as the Bowen mangos though - I suppose they're a slightly different > species? (not sure) > > I had mangoes whilst in Delhi, and I was told they were famous in > India (I forget which city - somewhere South?) but they didn't taste > as sweet and juicy as the mangoes from my childhood. though memories > have a way of doing that to something when you try it again later. > plus I had them in a restaurant, and to me, that's just not the place > / way to eat mangoes properly!! you need to be out in the sunshine > making a mess. :) > > I hope your community can work out a way to share the mangoes and > enjoy them in the summertime. > kath > -- http://indersalim.livejournal.com From kshmendra2005 at yahoo.com Thu Apr 30 16:01:40 2009 From: kshmendra2005 at yahoo.com (Kshmendra Kaul) Date: Thu, 30 Apr 2009 03:31:40 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Reader-list] Pankaj Mishra on Wendy Doniger's The Hindus - An Alternative History In-Reply-To: <185181.38687.qm@web53604.mail.re2.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <289059.94720.qm@web57207.mail.re3.yahoo.com> Dear Rahul   Thank you for sharing this excellent article.   Articulates in many a places my own attitudes and recognitions. Thank you   Kshmendra --- On Wed, 4/29/09, Rahul Asthana wrote: From: Rahul Asthana Subject: Re: [Reader-list] Pankaj Mishra on Wendy Doniger's The Hindus - An Alternative History To: reader-list at sarai.net, "Monica Narula" Date: Wednesday, April 29, 2009, 7:39 PM Another perspective on the hardening of the Hindu identiity http://sankrant.sulekha.com/blog/post/2003/02/need-i-belong-to-only-one-religion.htm --- On Tue, 4/28/09, Monica Narula wrote: > From: Monica Narula > Subject: [Reader-list] Pankaj Mishra on Wendy Doniger's The Hindus - An Alternative History > To: reader-list at sarai.net > Date: Tuesday, April 28, 2009, 6:32 PM > Wendy Doniger's: The Hindus - An Alternative History > > Visiting India in 1921, E. M. Forster witnessed the > eight-day > celebration of Lord Krishna’s birthday. This first > encounter with > devotional ecstasy left the Bloomsbury aesthete baffled. > “There is no > dignity, no taste, no form,” he complained in a letter > home. Recoiling > from Hindu India, Forster was relieved to enter the > relatively > rational world of Islam. Describing the muezzin’s call at > the Taj > Mahal, he wrote, “I knew at all events where I stood and > what I heard; > it was a land that was not merely atmosphere but had > definite outlines > and horizons.” > > Forster, who later used his appalled fascination with > India’s > polytheistic muddle to superb effect in his novel “A > Passage to > India,” was only one in a long line of Britons who felt > their notions > of order and morality challenged by Indian religious and > cultural > practices. The British Army captain who discovered the > erotic temples > of Khajuraho in the early 19th century was outraged by how > “extremely > indecent and offensive” depictions of fornicating couples > profaned a > “place of worship.” Lord Macaulay thundered against the > worship, still > widespread in India today, of the Shiva lingam. Even Karl > Marx > inveighed against how man, “the sovereign of nature,” > had degraded > himself in India by worshipping Hanuman, the monkey god. > > Repelled by such pagan blasphemies, the first British > scholars of > India went so far as to invent what we now call > “Hinduism,” complete > with a mainstream classical tradition consisting entirely > of Sanskrit > philosophical texts like the Bhagavad-Gita and the > Upanishads. In > fact, most Indians in the 18th century knew no Sanskrit, > the language > exclusive to Brahmins. For centuries, they remained unaware > of the > hymns of the four Vedas or the idealist monism of the > Upanishads that > the German Romantics, American Transcendentalists and other > early > Indophiles solemnly supposed to be the very essence of > Indian > civilization. (Smoking chillums and chanting “Om,” the > Beats were > closer to the mark.) > > As Wendy Doniger, a scholar of Indian religions at the > University of > Chicago, explains in her staggeringly comprehensive book, > the British > Indologists who sought to tame India’s chaotic > polytheisms had a > “Protestant bias in favor of scripture.” In > “privileging” Sanskrit > over local languages, she writes, they created what has > proved to be > an enduring impression of a “unified Hinduism.” And > they found keen > collaborators among upper-caste Indian scholars and > translators. This > British-Brahmin version of Hinduism — one of the many > invented > traditions born around the world in the 18th and 19th > centuries — has > continued to find many takers among semi-Westernized Hindus > suffering > from an inferiority complex vis-à-vis the apparently more > successful > and organized religions of Christianity, Judaism and Islam. > > The Hindu nationalists of today, who long for India to > become a > muscular international power, stand in a direct line of > 19th-century > Indian reform movements devoted to purifying and reviving a > Hinduism > perceived as having grown too fragmented and weak. These > mostly upper- > caste and middle-class nationalists have accelerated the > modernization > and homogenization of “Hinduism.” > > Still, the nontextual, syncretic religious and > philosophical > traditions of India that escaped the attention of British > scholars > flourish even today. Popular devotional cults, shrines, > festivals, > rites and legends that vary across India still form the > worldview of a > majority of Indians. Goddesses, as Doniger writes, > “continue to > evolve.” Bollywood produced the most popular one of my > North Indian > childhood: Santoshi Mata, who seemed to fulfill the > materialistic > wishes of newly urbanized Hindus. Far from being a slave to > mindless > superstition, popular religious legend conveys a darkly > ambiguous view > of human action. Revered as heroes in one region, the > characters of > the great epics “Ramayana” and “Mahabharata” can be > regarded as > villains in another. Demons and gods are dialectically > interrelated in > a complex cosmic order that would make little sense to the > theologians > of the so-called war on terror. > > Doniger sets herself the ambitious task of writing “a > narrative > alternative to the one constituted by the most famous texts > in > Sanskrit.” As she puts it, “It’s not all about > Brahmins, Sanskrit, the > Gita.” It’s also not about perfidious Muslims who > destroyed > innumerable Hindu temples and forcibly converted millions > of Indians > to Islam. Doniger, who cannot but be aware of the political > > historiography of Hindu nationalists, the most powerful > interpreters > of Indian religions in both India and abroad today, also > wishes to > provide an “alternative to the narrative of Hindu history > that they > tell.” > > She writes at length about the devotional “bhakti” > tradition, an > ecstatic and radically egalitarian form of Hindu > religiosity which, > though possessing royal and literary lineage, was “also a > folk and > oral phenomenon,” accommodating women, low-caste men and > illiterates. > She explores, contra Marx, the role of monkeys as the > “human > unconscious” in the “Ramayana,” the bible of muscular > Hinduism, while > casting a sympathetic eye on its chief ogre, Ravana. And > she examines > the mythology and ritual of Tantra, the most misunderstood > of Indian > traditions. > > She doesn’t neglect high-table Hinduism. Her chapter on > violence in > the “Mahabharata” is particularly insightful, > highlighting the tragic > aspects of the great epic, and unraveling, in the process, > the hoary > cliché of Hindus as doctrinally pacifist. Both > “dharma” and “karma” > get their due. Those who tilt at organized religions today > on behalf > of a residual Enlightenment rationalism may be startled to > learn that > atheism and agnosticism have long traditions in Indian > religions and > philosophies. > > Though the potted biographies of Mughal emperors seem > superfluous in a > long book, Doniger’s chapter on the centuries of Muslim > rule over > India helps dilute the lurid mythology of Hindu > nationalists. > Motivated by realpolitik rather than religious > fundamentalism, the > Mughals destroyed temples; they also built and patronized > them. Not > only is there “no evidence of massive coercive > conversion” to Islam, > but also so much of what we know as popular Hinduism — > the currently > popular devotional cults of Rama and Krishna, the network > of > pilgrimages, ashrams and sects — acquired its distinctive > form during > Mughal rule. > > Doniger’s winsomely eclectic range of reference — she > enlists Philip > Roth’s novel “I Married a Communist” for a > description of the Hindu > renunciant’s psychology — begins to seem too > determinedly eccentric > when she discusses Rudyard Kipling, a figure with no > discernible > influence on Indian religions, with greater interpretative > vigor than > she does Mohandas K. Gandhi, the most creative of modern > devout > Hindus. More puzzlingly, Doniger has little to say about > the forms > Indian cultures have assumed in Bali, Mauritius, Trinidad > and Fiji, > even as she describes at length the Internet-enabled > liturgies of > Hindus in America. > > Yet it is impossible not to admire a book that strides so > intrepidly > into a polemical arena almost as treacherous as Israel- > Arab > relations. During a lecture in London in 2003, Doniger > escaped being > hit by an egg thrown by a Hindu nationalist apparently > angry at the > “sexual thrust” of her interpretation of the > “sacred” “Ramayana.” This > book will no doubt further expose her to the fury of the > modern-day > Indian heirs of the British imperialists who invented > “Hinduism.” > Happily, it will also serve as a salutary antidote to the > fanatics who > perceive — correctly — the fluid existential identities > and commodious > metaphysic of practiced Indian religions as a threat to > their project > of a culturally homogenous and militant nation-state. > > Pankaj Mishra is the author of “An End to Suffering: The > Buddha in the > World” and “Temptations of the West: How to Be Modern > in India, > Pakistan, Tibet, and Beyond.” > > ============================================= > > Monica Narula > Raqs Media Collective > Sarai-CSDS > www.raqsmediacollective.net > www.sarai.net > > > > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to > reader-list-request at sarai.net with subscribe in the subject > header. > To unsubscribe: > https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: > <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> _________________________________________ reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. Critiques & Collaborations To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with subscribe in the subject header. To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> From kshmendra2005 at yahoo.com Thu Apr 30 16:09:12 2009 From: kshmendra2005 at yahoo.com (Kshmendra Kaul) Date: Thu, 30 Apr 2009 03:39:12 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Reader-list] The Mango Tree In-Reply-To: <47e122a70904300328x7efa88beq25fa2acf6e3d9b89@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <740241.59779.qm@web57203.mail.re3.yahoo.com> Dear Inder   Will you please specify where it is in Kashmir  that there are "thousand of apricot trees on road side and people are fee to eat,"   Kshmendra --- On Thu, 4/30/09, Inder Salim wrote: From: Inder Salim Subject: Re: [Reader-list] The Mango Tree To: "reader-list" Date: Thursday, April 30, 2009, 3:58 PM Thanks dear Kath both yours and Sphea have relished free mangoes is a pleasant news , probably from an area which was not owned by anybody, but nevertheless there are spaces where people have a healthy relationship with earth and its products. but that is so limited, alas settling issues of equal distribution issue with others in community is what i dont how, and whom shall we empower to decide, as i said there thousands of eys and one mango tree. so it is almost difficult in kashmir there is thousand of apricot trees on road side and people are fee to eat, thanks for your comment in the blog as well love IS On Thu, Apr 30, 2009 at 6:38 AM, Kath O'Donnell wrote: > hi Inder, my mango eating experience is also from Australia similar to > Sophea's. mangoes are also grown in Queensland which is on the east > coast of Australia, to the North - some of the best (imo) come from > Bowen which is a town on the edge of the Whitsunday Islands. we had > relatives living there, so in summer, when we were children we'd be > sent a couple of cases of Bowen mangoes. this would be a real treat, > and some of the other neighbourhood kids would come over to share in > the treats. Mum would make us eat them outside in our togs (swimsuits) > with the hose next to us as it was a really messy affair. we just > peeled them and ate - they were very sweet, sometimes a little stringy > towards the end. we'd end up with mango juice all over our faces and > hands and have to hose ourselves off then run around in the sunshine. > we didn't dice the mangoes or slice them into more manageable & less > messy pieces as people do these days - the mess was part of the fun. > > and yes, I've also heard (in Brisbane) that if the fruit hangs over > the fence into your yard or the footpath then you can pick the mango > and eat it. no one seems to worry as there's usually an abundance of > fruit which otherwise ends up falling off the trees to the ground and > the birds eat them and go a little silly - they seem to become drunk > on too many. the mango trees fruit in yards in Brisbane aren't as nice > as the Bowen mangos though - I suppose they're a slightly different > species? (not sure) > > I had mangoes whilst in Delhi, and I was told they were famous in > India (I forget which city - somewhere South?) but they didn't taste > as sweet and juicy as the mangoes from my childhood. though memories > have a way of doing that to something when you try it again later. > plus I had them in a restaurant, and to me, that's just not the place > / way to eat mangoes properly!! you need to be out in the sunshine > making a mess. :) > > I hope your community can work out a way to share the mangoes and > enjoy them in the summertime. > kath > -- http://indersalim.livejournal.com _________________________________________ reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. Critiques & Collaborations To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with subscribe in the subject header. To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> From kshmendra2005 at yahoo.com Thu Apr 30 16:28:42 2009 From: kshmendra2005 at yahoo.com (Kshmendra Kaul) Date: Thu, 30 Apr 2009 03:58:42 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Reader-list] Fw: The Mango Tree In-Reply-To: <962224.83519.qm@web94704.mail.in2.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <738834.60566.qm@web57201.mail.re3.yahoo.com> Dear Subhrodip   First an admission. After my last post to you, I realised that the manner in which I seemed to making generalisations about Pakistanis was as disgusting and unacceptable as Inder's generalisation about "baniyas".   I am chastised. Have to sort myself out.   I continue to be fascinated by the manner in which you construct your posts. I am not used to this style even though my own daughter writes in a similar fashion when she is trying to educate me on some topic. She loses me. My limitations.   I think I did get some sense of what you were saying.   Kshmendra --- On Thu, 4/30/09, subhrodip sengupta wrote: From: subhrodip sengupta Subject: [Reader-list] Fw: The Mango Tree To: "Readers list Yousuf Sarai." Date: Thursday, April 30, 2009, 12:40 PM ----- Forwarded Message ---- From: subhrodip sengupta To: kshmendra2005 at yahoo.com Sent: Thursday, 30 April, 2009 12:35:20 PM Subject: Re: [Reader-list] The Mango Tree Dear Kshmendra,                thans for your well-sorted out response, indeed making caste of society fight against each other wouldnt put an end to the tendancies which we are critiqing, neither would nation-chauvinist attitude help, whatever qualm I might have with my neighbour, I would not implant a bomb in his territory, that would harm many others,(who knows, including kids of my family?), but somewhere within the motions of the society, do we find tendencies, dominant ones, once subscibed to by a certain caste, now having spread to many leading such a lifestyle. These then become 'values', values of deserting ones old parents and going abroad, values ofstaying away from ones family for days together, or other values not necessarily concerned with this such as late night partying, rave-partying etc. For some it is inevitable, irresistable, to quote one of the leaders 'sar char kar bole' to othe it becomes intolerable, and infringing into their peace of mind, so that they decide to step ahead and do something about it! When there is a miniature genocide, some look at it as a miniature civil war, some even say it is terror sponsored, some say it challenges the integrity of nation as they take sides of police, and consciously or otherwise favour the vested interests ehom the regime, I should say alas was favouring consciously, some others say it was a Genocide. The questions involved are those of scales, values, and whoch motions does one identify using those values. Some values of the Baniyas has been kept alive in the mordern, indeed many ofhrough a our indegenous businessmen are caste biased, and they'll take you a story of rishtadari, thiugh they may not even trace back the long chain, what they mean is Jati, or may be sharing the same gotra, though the latter is rarely the case. As Inder has noted, I am greatful that he did, I would like to go a bitt off his analysis which I find a bit spiritualstic, I would rather, sourly(like an unripe mango) say these tendencies materialise, but again jati-system did some harshness to the women, so knowing the 'spirits' of by fellow people, I would not like to provide a deterministic tone, progeny being a vital factor in the villages, 'Ok am a baniya, my forefathers thought like this, I must share the same thoughts!' Sometimes by using strange words you may force somebody to think, when you deny certain values in your speeches, you force people to recognise rergressive tendancies, when you swear to cut the hands of people who disturb members of your community, or that police tortured you saying your mom is a muslim, you are reminding people of counter communal tendancies, and the nature of secularism, from it's positive dictionary meaning,to secular governments intent(implications), why is it silent to your people, people, to whom we are communicating do have their own abilty to judge things, they do know, who this policeman is, better than many of us who stay in AC rooms and rely on mainly influential contacts to get the slightest works done, and they do decide based on their own judgement, values and interests, whether they want to live together or fight, whom to support and to what extent, when SSC results are not published before elections, I do see some arrangement in that independant fair function of the soverign state too, and thats why I often quote these elections in most places are a struggle for the nation not for it's people, for people would include into similar class people whom you do not like, and would be negative towards, thats where excessive Nation Chauvinism, calling Pakistani gives a value judgement of whatg you think about them, doesnt strongly bother me for I do not spend sleepless nights thinking about democracy or SWAT valley issues either, but might rightly bother some muslim brothers as some hindu brothers get bothered when they find a hindu in Pakistan in distress.  And yes, when values need to be changed they need to be uprooted, isolated from the value system, so that they do not come back due to any accident, yes in this ecological or say eco-feminist challenge to such practises under Capitalist farming, we are reminded of many other adulterations from injections to colours to our well loved leaves (saags) to baingans, and pumpkins to our coloured potatoes, of how we do not know to jugje vegatbles, but turn essentially fetish, I also share my angush in which restaurants serve salads, ok some of them. The question then is about realising that such practises exist and to resist them ,not resist or fight against each other. THE idea is to influence and persuade people dominated by some practises not to do so, to uproot such values so that contertendancies do nor revrse them I call this phenomenon Majburi, the Object was a Mango, and how many of us again started fighting over it, People are instrinctively too chauvinist to correct themselves and this relates to how efficient one is, this applies to feudal ruling classes. When someone talks of Singur or Nandigram (polar issues), I do not feel ashamed, well MY dad is neither a a supprter of Sir Tata nor is he Tata himself, nor was I responsible to any big extent(so that epole do not crowd me for being insensitive) for the rape of this girl. One has to know why the other person is behaving thus, may be he is wrong, may be he is right! Else the idea of kin-pride, Nationalism etc is only to justify power and hiding the potent evil in their garbs, when some disturbance disarrays these evils, chaos starts which need to be Justified, but Alas can not be always!        By the way does one know who the author of this passage is? IF somebody can get me the answer, I'd be greatful. thanks for reading(open ended) ________________________________ From: Kshmendra Kaul To: subhrodip sengupta Cc: Readers list Yousuf Sarai. Sent: Wednesday, 29 April, 2009 3:10:45 PM Subject: Re: [Reader-list] The Mango Tree Dear Subhrodip Sir! 1. May I first tell you how fascinated I am by the manner in which you (usually) construct your mails. 2. If typecasting a group / community with negative attributes is alright in any one case, then it has to be alright in every case. Such putting into compartments is very useful if the intention is to attack. It is counterproductive if the intent is to understand. 3. The reference to Pakistan was made because such an attitude towards the "Hindu Baniya" used to be ingrained into the psyche of Pakistanis through their school textbooks. I do not know how it is now. At least the remanants of that can still be found in their Media (especially TV). And it would appear amongst some in India too. Do we have to re-inforce them? Should we? 4. Imagine if everyone was liberal with such typecasting. No do not imagine it, just see it happening all around us day in and day out: - Punjabis are this kind of people - Bengalis are this kind of people - Kashmiri Pandits are this kind of people - Kashmiri Muslims are this kind of people - Communists are this this kind of people - Capitalists are this kind of people - and on and on and on You can see how such rigid proclamations destroy ....... (open ended) Kshmendra --- On Tue, 4/28/09, subhrodip sengupta wrote: From: subhrodip sengupta Subject: Re: [Reader-list] The Mango Tree To: kshmendra2005 at yahoo.com Cc: "Readers list Yousuf Sarai." Date: Tuesday, April 28, 2009, 9:09 PM very true sir, but why give Paki tone to it? There are hindu punjabis, biharis non-baniyas etc who share the same thing for hindu baniyas, and a second class to the marwaris. They do and it is well-noted in Hindu literature, I can tell you  Bibhutibhusan, a bengali. And can for the sake of not attacking a caste, can we ignore it's tendancy? Ok, lets take it not that deeply, but strong feeling of author. ________________________________ From: Kshmendra Kaul To: reader-list ; Inder Salim Sent: Tuesday, 28 April, 2009 2:56:40 PM Subject: Re: [Reader-list] The Mango Tree """""" The 70-G-wallay are Baniyas (the traditional business community) and hence have a natural tendency to think about their personal benefits only.""""""   Natural tendency ? Sounds very racist.   Derogatory remarks about "baniyas" crop up most often on the Pakistani Media. It is more specific. It is the "Hindu Baniya". It used be taught that way in Pakistani school textbooks. Do not know if it still is.     Kshmendra --- On Mon, 4/27/09, Inder Salim wrote: From: Inder Salim Subject: [Reader-list] The Mango Tree To: "reader-list" Date: Monday, April 27, 2009, 10:14 PM -- THE MANGO TREE The centre of the universe is not the place where I am standing, but the Mango Tree in front of my balcony. But because of different seasons its centre of importance shifts,  particularly when there are no mangoes on its branches.. Almost a decade back, when I shifted into my flat, there was no such tree over there, but indeed a structure conducive for the growth of a Mango Tree, or any other tree, was always there. This space where these small and big trees exist belongs to the entire colony, a public space,  where people relish their evening strolls, or let  their children jump a little, and also scatter biscuit and chocolate wrapper around, carelessly. The Trees are mostly non-fruity ones, so everything is cool, except this Mango Tree. Right now, the entire colony is talking about this mango tree, but the flats which are directly facing this mango tree are constantly thinking about it. I am also looking at the mango tree, but among other things, what puzzles me is the question why the tree gives birth to hundreds of mangoes when it does not want its entire crop to grow? As I notice some little green mangoes keep on falling on the earth, naturally. Why? It fascinates me. This is perhaps, what we call mysteries of the nature, so no need to interfere or worry on that account.  But still there are plenty of mangoes on the tree, and everybody is silently looking at them, who simply want to eat them. But there is some helplessness in their looking at them. The reason for this is that the 70-G-wallay (family living in the Ground floor) happened to water this mango tree sometimes , and now they have the birth right to harvest the entire crop of this tree. True, I am witness to that, but I doubt if they  actually  had planted the tree. I believe, somebody had carelessly thrown a mango kernel into the park which has given birth to this controversial tree.  The 70-F-wallay, 70-S- wallay, and 70-T-wallay (families living in First, Second and Top floor) feel that they too have the right to eat some mangoes. These families live closer to this tree, but other families which are facing it too have the similar desire but, I guess the intensity of the desire to eat these mangoes is directly proportional to the distance of the eyes that are looking at this mango tree. The trouble is that the 70-G-wallay leave no stone unturned to ensure that the mango tree is under their control during the crop time. They don’t even let a singing bulbul, or a peaceful dove, let alone stray colony monkeys to come near this mango tree.    They use all the ways and means to keep the other away from the reach of this tree.  They must have even counted the number of mangoes on the tree which are still unripe, quite green but distinguishable from the green of its foliage. The 70-G-wallay are Baniyas (the traditional business community) and hence have a natural tendency to think about their personal benefits only. I must say, with some confidence, that such families are the predecessor families of the entire world capitalism, like monkey is known as the predecessor of the man.. A limited thought, but business is usually created to be inherited by their successors, usually sons. So, there is a tradition, to own the factory, an orchid, an oil well etc.  Right now, here in this colony, there are people who want the entire mango tree to be felled since they don’t get their share of mangoes, but there are people who are content with the idea of a tree alone. Although, the later category of people are quite in minority but they are happy that there is a place for a dove to make a nest, or twig for a squirrel  to jump from this tree to another tree. Yes, some children from outside,  say from other underprivileged families, whom I guess have never tasted a mango in their life, do come and try to steal a mango or two from this tree  by throwing a stone or a small stick. The 70-G-Wallay quickly come out from their flat and use all kinds of popular vernacular to chase them away.. The rest of families again remain silent, who otherwise would not like these outside children to venture into the protected colony, where I too happen to own a flat. The result is that every year, the 70-G-wallay harvest the unripe crop lest it might be shared or stolen by others. The entire unripe-unripe crop is harvested, because the fear of losing the crop intensifies with the passing of each day, which is just good enough for  ordinary pickle at the best. The real mangos never see the light of the day. I don’t about the whole world, but in India, the nature of business is such that the entire crop of Mangoes is usually plucked from the branches while it is still growing, still green. The golden fruit becomes golden only in the dark rooms of Mandi (Fruit markets) where they are dumped for couple of days, or weeks, to hit the stalls on the very day they turn golden, golden red or golden green.  Who knows if some chemicals are injected into the mangoes to give them a more golden look, or make turn them even tastier? After all we are lured by products which are masked, glossed, either on TV, cinema, or in the Malls, or in the life directly. After all, the idea of mango is usually smarter than the actual mango. But there are spaces where Mangoes are allowed to turn golden on the trees itself, and subsequently relished with their maximum sugar and vitamin levels. But, as we know that is outside the structure of business and people like 70-G-wallay don’t have a clue about that. So, has anybody ever tasted a real mango? The question is that there is just one mango tree, and thousands of eyes on its couple of hundred odd mangoes on the tree. Right now, the people like 70-G-wallay who control the production of plant don’t let the mangos grow naturally. So they too have not tasted a mango, and neither let others to taste a real ripe one. So  has anybody tasted a real mango, if there is one, and if yes, who deserves to eat that, and relish? please press to see mangoes http://pics.livejournal.com/indersalim/pic/000hz44h/ With love Inder salim http://indersalim.livejournal.com _________________________________________ reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. Critiques & Collaborations To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with subscribe in the subject header. To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/>       _________________________________________ reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. Critiques & Collaborations To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai..net with subscribe in the subject header. To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> ________________________________ Now surf faster and smarter ! Check out the new Firefox 3 - Yahoo! Edition * Click here! ________________________________ >From Chandigarh to Chennai - find friends all over India. Click here. Own a website.Get an unlimited package.Pay next to nothing.*Go to http://in.business.yahoo.com/ _________________________________________ reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. Critiques & Collaborations To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with subscribe in the subject header. To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> From indersalim at gmail.com Thu Apr 30 16:32:17 2009 From: indersalim at gmail.com (Inder Salim) Date: Thu, 30 Apr 2009 16:32:17 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] The Mango Tree In-Reply-To: <740241.59779.qm@web57203.mail.re3.yahoo.com> References: <47e122a70904300328x7efa88beq25fa2acf6e3d9b89@mail.gmail.com> <740241.59779.qm@web57203.mail.re3.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <47e122a70904300402i278c46c5u69fb7dec60123acf@mail.gmail.com> if you just walk down the road from Zainapora towards Shopian, you will hundred of apricot trees lined on either side of the road, there are other such areas in kashmir, limited to appricots only, not apples or almonds On Thu, Apr 30, 2009 at 4:09 PM, Kshmendra Kaul wrote: > Dear Inder > > Will you please specify where it is in Kashmir  that there are "thousand of > apricot trees on road side and people are fee to eat," > > Kshmendra > > > --- On Thu, 4/30/09, Inder Salim wrote: > > From: Inder Salim > Subject: Re: [Reader-list] The Mango Tree > To: "reader-list" > Date: Thursday, April 30, 2009, 3:58 PM > > Thanks dear Kath > both yours and Sphea have relished free mangoes is a pleasant news > , probably from an area which was not owned by anybody, but > nevertheless there are spaces where people have a healthy relationship > with earth and its products. but that is so limited, alas > > settling issues of equal distribution issue with others in community > is what i dont how, and whom shall we empower to decide, as i said > there thousands of eys and one mango tree. so it is almost difficult > > > in kashmir there is thousand of apricot trees on road side and people > are fee to eat, > > thanks for your comment in the blog as well > > love > IS > > > > On Thu, Apr 30, 2009 at 6:38 AM, Kath O'Donnell > wrote: >> hi Inder, my mango eating experience is also from Australia similar to >> Sophea's. mangoes are also grown in Queensland which is on the east >> coast of Australia, to the North - some of the best (imo) come from >> Bowen which is a town on the edge of the Whitsunday Islands. we had >> relatives living there, so in summer, when we were children we'd be >> sent a couple of cases of Bowen mangoes. this would be a real treat, >> and some of the other neighbourhood kids would come over to share in >> the treats. Mum would make us eat them outside in our togs (swimsuits) >> with the hose next to us as it was a really messy affair. we just >> peeled them and ate - they were very sweet, sometimes a little stringy >> towards the end. we'd end up with mango juice all over our faces and >> hands and have to hose ourselves off then run around in the sunshine. >> we didn't dice the mangoes or slice them into more manageable & > less >> messy pieces as people do these days - the mess was part of the fun. >> >> and yes, I've also heard (in Brisbane) that if the fruit hangs over >> the fence into your yard or the footpath then you can pick the mango >> and eat it. no one seems to worry as there's usually an abundance of >> fruit which otherwise ends up falling off the trees to the ground and >> the birds eat them and go a little silly - they seem to become drunk >> on too many. the mango trees fruit in yards in Brisbane aren't as nice >> as the Bowen mangos though - I suppose they're a slightly different >> species? (not sure) >> >> I had mangoes whilst in Delhi, and I was told they were famous in >> India (I forget which city - somewhere South?) but they didn't taste >> as sweet and juicy as the mangoes from my childhood. though memories >> have a way of doing that to something when you try it again later. >> plus I had them in a restaurant, and to me, that's just not the place >> / way to eat mangoes properly!! you need to be out in the sunshine >> making a mess. :) >> >> I hope your community can work out a way to share the mangoes and >> enjoy them in the summertime. >> kath >> > > > > -- > > http://indersalim.livejournal.com > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with subscribe > in > the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> > -- http://indersalim.livejournal.com From pawan.durani at gmail.com Thu Apr 30 17:44:31 2009 From: pawan.durani at gmail.com (Pawan Durani) Date: Thu, 30 Apr 2009 05:14:31 -0700 Subject: [Reader-list] Maoists violence In-Reply-To: <98f331e00904292139la009740p47d6356240fed4cb@mail.gmail.com> References: <98f331e00904292139la009740p47d6356240fed4cb@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <6b79f1a70904300514m61587ae7lba1f354284406234@mail.gmail.com> Mr Ray, ' you think the readers here are so dumb. Please be honest to this list for a change. We know your ideology hasnt been honest to the nation. Ahhh Communists......would they ever change for good. Pawan On 4/29/09, prakash ray wrote: > > Dear all, > > After many mindless violent attacks in Jharkhand, Bihar, Chhatisgarh and > Andhra Pradesh during the first two legs of the general Elections, the > Maoist terror is targetting the election process in West Bengal. Within one > hour, they have attacked more than a half dozen places. > > These attacks have once again exposed the ideological and political > bankruptcy of the Maoist terror. The time has come to take a firm ressolve > to fight these goons. However, it is a matter of commom knowledge that many > leaders from the Congress, the BJP, the TMC and the JMM are providing > shelter and support to the Maoists for their own political and criminal > advantages. > > One can only hope that the next government at the centre with the state > authorities will do something to end this menace. > > PKR > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > subscribe in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> From rakesh.rnbdj at gmail.com Thu Apr 30 18:10:07 2009 From: rakesh.rnbdj at gmail.com (Rakesh Iyer) Date: Thu, 30 Apr 2009 18:10:07 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Pankaj Mishra on Wendy Doniger's The Hindus - An Alternative History In-Reply-To: <289059.94720.qm@web57207.mail.re3.yahoo.com> References: <185181.38687.qm@web53604.mail.re2.yahoo.com> <289059.94720.qm@web57207.mail.re3.yahoo.com> Message-ID: Dear All I think one must understand the basic rationale, that religion is always organized. And since the coming of the British, it's not only the British, but also the reformers within the 'Hindu religion' who decided to actually homogenize it, either directly or indirectly. Raja Ram Mohun Roy comes to my mind, for he used the texts such as Vedas or others to support his reforms. Later in turn, Dayanand Saraswati also referred to these in order to bring reforms and secure support for his Arya Samaj. And ironically, Swami Vivekananda also used the Vedanta to justify that Hinduism was a great religion, but it's people had to reform themselves morally. I think one must differentiate between the positive and the negative aspects of this. The positive aspects were certainly there. Ram Mohun Roy did manage to get sati banned through continuous protests and convincing Lord William Bentinck. Moreover, Vivekananda was somewhere right when he said that Indians had to turn inward to see why they had been subjugated by the British rule (we had fallen prey to the British due to their ability to divide our rulers). However, what I have doubts with is the conditions of the subaltern prior to the British rule. Whatever we do read about India, is something which has been constructed after the British rule set itself up in India. Whether it be the Hindutva history or the Leftist versions of history, both have come up after this. Therefore, I would like to ask the following questions, and anybody who has answers to any of these questions, I please request, to kindly answer back: 1) Is it true that the idea that Mughals, or Islamic rulers actually forced Hindus to convert, came into Indian consciousness post the British rule? Is it equally true that it was under the British, that people came to hear first that Muslims had destroyed temples in India? Is there proof of temple destruction by the Muslim rulers prior to the British rule? Is there proof for conversion as well? Secondly, was the idea into public consciousness prior to the British rule? 2) What was the structure of the society prior to the British rule? Was there a caste system to begin with, in practice, in India? 3) If there was a caste system practiced in India, was it as oppressive as is talked about (when the case for reservations is argued, or say when Mayawati or Paswan have their slogans against Brahmins)? Or was it of somewhat different form than what is being talked about? And do we have information about it? 4) Is it actually true that the British constructed totally a view of Indian history, which the Leftists and the Hindutva scholars manipulated to attain their own ends? And what we have today therefore are two versions, where both try to prove that Hinduism is that or this (Left says Hinduism is just traditions which are more feminine-oriented, while Hindutva tries to portray Hindus as victims of Islamic and Christian rule out to get justice). 5) I hear it often from one of my friends that the Mughal rule or any other Islamic rule, whether oppressive or not, was not of much concern to the common people since it didn't have a great penetration into the society. On the other hand, the British are said to have penetrated deep into the Indian society and having affected public consciousness in a way which no other ruler managed to do before. Is that true? And if yes, how did this change us, or our society? I would be very glad if people can put up answers to these questions. Regards Rakesh From rakesh.rnbdj at gmail.com Thu Apr 30 18:14:11 2009 From: rakesh.rnbdj at gmail.com (Rakesh Iyer) Date: Thu, 30 Apr 2009 18:14:11 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Maoists violence In-Reply-To: <6b79f1a70904300514m61587ae7lba1f354284406234@mail.gmail.com> References: <98f331e00904292139la009740p47d6356240fed4cb@mail.gmail.com> <6b79f1a70904300514m61587ae7lba1f354284406234@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: Dear Pawan jee While Ray Sahab may be sad that the Maoists are making the Left suffer, the fact is that there is a perception that Maoists are known to collude with political parties. During the Andhra Pradesh elections of 2004, one of the reasons for the Congress victory in the assembly polls was attributed to the support they had from the Maoists, as opposed to Chandrababu Naidu whom the Maoists bitterly opposed. (For me, this for now is a perception based point). Similarly, during the Chhatisgarh elections, it's believed that though Maoists were attacked by the Salwa Judum, Maoists in certain constituencies were supposed to have supported the BJP candidates (which supported the Salwa Judum). So therefore, a perception may just remain that, a perception, but one shouldn't just dismiss it. As for the Left, they would feel afraid that their issues are hijacked by the ultra-left Maoists. Regards Rakesh From kshmendra2005 at yahoo.com Thu Apr 30 19:10:09 2009 From: kshmendra2005 at yahoo.com (Kshmendra Kaul) Date: Thu, 30 Apr 2009 06:40:09 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Reader-list] The Mango Tree In-Reply-To: <47e122a70904300402i278c46c5u69fb7dec60123acf@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <472586.92586.qm@web57205.mail.re3.yahoo.com> Dear Inder   >From your earlier "thousands of trees" to now "hundreds of trees" is quite a downturn in numbers.   There are no "thousands" or even "hundreds" of Apricot trees lining either side of the road anywhere in Shopian.   Apricot orchardy is by and large confined to Ladakh Province.   You seem to have your fruits mixed up.   Doesnt matter. The core question still is "Where in Kashmir are people free to eat (any fruit) from their trees on the road side"?   "People free to eat" means anyone and everyone. Where in Kashmir is this?   Kshmendra   --- On Thu, 4/30/09, Inder Salim wrote: From: Inder Salim Subject: Re: [Reader-list] The Mango Tree To: "reader-list" Date: Thursday, April 30, 2009, 4:32 PM if you just walk down the road from Zainapora towards Shopian, you will hundred of apricot trees lined on either side of the road, there are other such areas in kashmir, limited to appricots only, not apples or almonds On Thu, Apr 30, 2009 at 4:09 PM, Kshmendra Kaul wrote: > Dear Inder > > Will you please specify where it is in Kashmir  that there are "thousand of > apricot trees on road side and people are fee to eat," > > Kshmendra > > > --- On Thu, 4/30/09, Inder Salim wrote: > > From: Inder Salim > Subject: Re: [Reader-list] The Mango Tree > To: "reader-list" > Date: Thursday, April 30, 2009, 3:58 PM > > Thanks dear Kath > both yours and Sphea have relished free mangoes is a pleasant news > , probably from an area which was not owned by anybody, but > nevertheless there are spaces where people have a healthy relationship > with earth and its products. but that is so limited, alas > > settling issues of equal distribution issue with others in community > is what i dont how, and whom shall we empower to decide, as i said > there thousands of eys and one mango tree. so it is almost difficult > > > in kashmir there is thousand of apricot trees on road side and people > are fee to eat, > > thanks for your comment in the blog as well > > love > IS > > > > On Thu, Apr 30, 2009 at 6:38 AM, Kath O'Donnell > wrote: >> hi Inder, my mango eating experience is also from Australia similar to >> Sophea's. mangoes are also grown in Queensland which is on the east >> coast of Australia, to the North - some of the best (imo) come from >> Bowen which is a town on the edge of the Whitsunday Islands. we had >> relatives living there, so in summer, when we were children we'd be >> sent a couple of cases of Bowen mangoes. this would be a real treat, >> and some of the other neighbourhood kids would come over to share in >> the treats. Mum would make us eat them outside in our togs (swimsuits) >> with the hose next to us as it was a really messy affair. we just >> peeled them and ate - they were very sweet, sometimes a little stringy >> towards the end. we'd end up with mango juice all over our faces and >> hands and have to hose ourselves off then run around in the sunshine. >> we didn't dice the mangoes or slice them into more manageable & > less >> messy pieces as people do these days - the mess was part of the fun. >> >> and yes, I've also heard (in Brisbane) that if the fruit hangs over >> the fence into your yard or the footpath then you can pick the mango >> and eat it. no one seems to worry as there's usually an abundance of >> fruit which otherwise ends up falling off the trees to the ground and >> the birds eat them and go a little silly - they seem to become drunk >> on too many. the mango trees fruit in yards in Brisbane aren't as nice >> as the Bowen mangos though - I suppose they're a slightly different >> species? (not sure) >> >> I had mangoes whilst in Delhi, and I was told they were famous in >> India (I forget which city - somewhere South?) but they didn't taste >> as sweet and juicy as the mangoes from my childhood. though memories >> have a way of doing that to something when you try it again later. >> plus I had them in a restaurant, and to me, that's just not the place >> / way to eat mangoes properly!! you need to be out in the sunshine >> making a mess. :) >> >> I hope your community can work out a way to share the mangoes and >> enjoy them in the summertime. >> kath >> > > > > -- > > http://indersalim.livejournal.com > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with subscribe > in > the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> > -- http://indersalim.livejournal.com _________________________________________ reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. Critiques & Collaborations To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with subscribe in the subject header. To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> From rahul_capri at yahoo.com Thu Apr 30 19:28:59 2009 From: rahul_capri at yahoo.com (Rahul Asthana) Date: Thu, 30 Apr 2009 06:58:59 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Reader-list] Arundhati Roy's interview on BBC Urdu Message-ID: <11301.82961.qm@web53601.mail.re2.yahoo.com> Hi All, Please find the link to Arundhanti's interview,from probably under the rock where she has been living. http://www.bbc.co.uk/urdu/multimedia/2009/04/090428_arundhati_wusat_uk.shtml Thanks Rahul From sub_sengupta at yahoo.co.in Thu Apr 30 19:58:09 2009 From: sub_sengupta at yahoo.co.in (subhrodip sengupta) Date: Thu, 30 Apr 2009 19:58:09 +0530 (IST) Subject: [Reader-list] Fw: The Mango Tree Message-ID: <97149.93192.qm@web94706.mail.in2.yahoo.com> Just would like to elaborate or correct myself on the distribution problem, fruits means fruits for whom for the labour, for the Landowner or farmer, who invests and is labourer as well in many cases or the general people, and if fruits need must be divided in what ratio? Qualitatively who adds to the fruit should get something in return as well so that he is made as happy, not as staring at others having it, makes some sense, or is it only when we are considering few people owning scarce lands and more scarce trees? In what ratios, do passer-byes get fruits on the ground, good ones, and why or on what ground is this political arrangement made, are they still happy, Hopefully some more thought in this fashion, which I hope is not too abstract, on the hidden conditions, might help. Espicially from more enlightened minds!     Regards,              Subhrodip. ________________________________ From: subhrodip sengupta To: kshmendra2005 at yahoo.com Sent: Thursday, 30 April, 2009 7:43:17 PM Subject: Re: [Reader-list] Fw: The Mango Tree Dear Kshmendra,             Thank you for your Generous remarks, and enlightening views on this post(no sourness intended!). Now I too find some dynamism from the original discussion that has developed to your 'Where in .... are people free to eat (any fruit) from their trees on the road side?' 'people means anyone and everyone'. Quite illuminating if we find some healthy way out. I do not know about apricots and Kashmir, but in Himachal Pradesh's dominant apple growing areas, one is not allowed to break an apple from the owner's tree, but if a fruit falls on the ground, passers by (not necessarily tourists alone) can keep it. Off course it implies that apple yeild is in abundance there or else why should a fruit fall on the ground, unattended? Following surplus maximisaon, dimminishing returns, one gets to fruits harvested at sub-optimal time, but what if there is abbundance, prices falling to 7-8 rs a kilo? Is this possible given the pressures on the envoirnment? If yes, then HP might throw some light!               Regards,                       Subhrodip.   ________________________________ From: Kshmendra Kaul To: Readers list Yousuf Sarai. ; subhrodip sengupta Sent: Thursday, 30 April, 2009 4:28:42 PM Subject: Re: [Reader-list] Fw: The Mango Tree Dear Subhrodip First an admission. After my last post to you, I realised that the manner in which I seemed to making generalisations about Pakistanis was as disgusting and unacceptable as Inder's generalisation about "baniyas". I am chastised. Have to sort myself out. I continue to be fascinated by the manner in which you construct your posts. I am not used to this style even though my own daughter writes in a similar fashion when she is trying to educate me on some topic. She loses me. My limitations. I think I did get some sense of what you were saying. Kshmendra --- On Thu, 4/30/09, subhrodip sengupta wrote: From: subhrodip sengupta Subject: [Reader-list] Fw: The Mango Tree To: "Readers list Yousuf Sarai." Date: Thursday, April 30, 2009, 12:40 PM ----- Forwarded Message ---- From: subhrodip sengupta To: kshmendra2005 at yahoo.com Sent: Thursday, 30 April, 2009 12:35:20 PM Subject: Re: [Reader-list] The Mango Tree Dear Kshmendra,                thans for your well-sorted out response, indeed making caste of society fight against each other wouldnt put an end to the tendancies which we are critiqing, neither would nation-chauvinist attitude help, whatever qualm I might have with my neighbour, I would not implant a bomb in his territory, that would harm many others,(who knows, including kids of my family?), but somewhere within the motions of the society, do we find tendencies, dominant ones, once subscibed to by a certain caste, now having spread to many leading such a lifestyle. These then become 'values', values of deserting ones old parents and going abroad, values ofstaying away from ones family for days together, or other values not necessarily concerned with this such as late night partying, rave-partying etc.. For some it is inevitable, irresistable, to quote one of the leaders 'sar char kar bole' to othe it becomes intolerable, and infringing into their peace of mind, so that they decide to step ahead and do something about it! When there is a miniature genocide, some look at it as a miniature civil war, some even say it is terror sponsored, some say it challenges the integrity of nation as they take sides of police, and consciously or otherwise favour the vested interests ehom the regime, I should say alas was favouring consciously, some others say it was a Genocide. The questions involved are those of scales, values, and whoch motions does one identify using those values. Some values of the Baniyas has been kept alive in the mordern, indeed many ofhrough a our indegenous businessmen are caste biased, and they'll take you a story of rishtadari, thiugh they may not even trace back the long chain, what they mean is Jati, or may be sharing the same gotra, though the latter is rarely the case. As Inder has noted, I am greatful that he did, I would like to go a bitt off his analysis which I find a bit spiritualstic, I would rather, sourly(like an unripe mango) say these tendencies materialise, but again jati-system did some harshness to the women, so knowing the 'spirits' of by fellow people, I would not like to provide a deterministic tone, progeny being a vital factor in the villages, 'Ok am a baniya, my forefathers thought like this, I must share the same thoughts!' Sometimes by using strange words you may force somebody to think, when you deny certain values in your speeches, you force people to recognise rergressive tendancies, when you swear to cut the hands of people who disturb members of your community, or that police tortured you saying your mom is a muslim, you are reminding people of counter communal tendancies, and the nature of secularism, from it's positive dictionary meaning,to secular governments intent(implications), why is it silent to your people, people, to whom we are communicating do have their own abilty to judge things, they do know, who this policeman is, better than many of us who stay in AC rooms and rely on mainly influential contacts to get the slightest works done, and they do decide based on their own judgement, values and interests, whether they want to live together or fight, whom to support and to what extent, when SSC results are not published before elections, I do see some arrangement in that independant fair function of the soverign state too, and thats why I often quote these elections in most places are a struggle for the nation not for it's people, for people would include into similar class people whom you do not like, and would be negative towards, thats where excessive Nation Chauvinism, calling Pakistani gives a value judgement of whatg you think about them, doesnt strongly bother me for I do not spend sleepless nights thinking about democracy or SWAT valley issues either, but might rightly bother some muslim brothers as some hindu brothers get bothered when they find a hindu in Pakistan in distress.  And yes, when values need to be changed they need to be uprooted, isolated from the value system, so that they do not come back due to any accident, yes in this ecological or say eco-feminist challenge to such practises under Capitalist farming, we are reminded of many other adulterations from injections to colours to our well loved leaves (saags) to baingans, and pumpkins to our coloured potatoes, of how we do not know to jugje vegatbles, but turn essentially fetish, I also share my angush in which restaurants serve salads, ok some of them. The question then is about realising that such practises exist and to resist them ,not resist or fight against each other. THE idea is to influence and persuade people dominated by some practises not to do so, to uproot such values so that contertendancies do nor revrse them I call this phenomenon Majburi, the Object was a Mango, and how many of us again started fighting over it, People are instrinctively too chauvinist to correct themselves and this relates to how efficient one is, this applies to feudal ruling classes. When someone talks of Singur or Nandigram (polar issues), I do not feel ashamed, well MY dad is neither a a supprter of Sir Tata nor is he Tata himself, nor was I responsible to any big extent(so that epole do not crowd me for being insensitive) for the rape of this girl. One has to know why the other person is behaving thus, may be he is wrong, may be he is right! Else the idea of kin-pride, Nationalism etc is only to justify power and hiding the potent evil in their garbs, when some disturbance disarrays these evils, chaos starts which need to be Justified, but Alas can not be always!        By the way does one know who the author of this passage is? IF somebody can get me the answer, I'd be greatful. thanks for reading(open ended) ________________________________ From: Kshmendra Kaul To: subhrodip sengupta Cc: Readers list Yousuf Sarai. Sent: Wednesday, 29 April, 2009 3:10:45 PM Subject: Re: [Reader-list] The Mango Tree Dear Subhrodip Sir! 1. May I first tell you how fascinated I am by the manner in which you (usually) construct your mails. 2. If typecasting a group / community with negative attributes is alright in any one case, then it has to be alright in every case. Such putting into compartments is very useful if the intention is to attack.. It is counterproductive if the intent is to understand. 3. The reference to Pakistan was made because such an attitude towards the "Hindu Baniya" used to be ingrained into the psyche of Pakistanis through their school textbooks. I do not know how it is now. At least the remanants of that can still be found in their Media (especially TV). And it would appear amongst some in India too. Do we have to re-inforce them? Should we? 4. Imagine if everyone was liberal with such typecasting. No do not imagine it, just see it happening all around us day in and day out: - Punjabis are this kind of people - Bengalis are this kind of people - Kashmiri Pandits are this kind of people - Kashmiri Muslims are this kind of people - Communists are this this kind of people - Capitalists are this kind of people - and on and on and on You can see how such rigid proclamations destroy ....... (open ended) Kshmendra --- On Tue, 4/28/09, subhrodip sengupta wrote: From: subhrodip sengupta Subject: Re: [Reader-list] The Mango Tree To: kshmendra2005 at yahoo.com Cc: "Readers list Yousuf Sarai." Date: Tuesday, April 28, 2009, 9:09 PM very true sir, but why give Paki tone to it? There are hindu punjabis, biharis non-baniyas etc who share the same thing for hindu baniyas, and a second class to the marwaris. They do and it is well-noted in Hindu literature, I can tell you  Bibhutibhusan, a bengali. And can for the sake of not attacking a caste, can we ignore it's tendancy? Ok, lets take it not that deeply, but strong feeling of author. ________________________________ From: Kshmendra Kaul To: reader-list ; Inder Salim Sent: Tuesday, 28 April, 2009 2:56:40 PM Subject: Re: [Reader-list] The Mango Tree """""" The 70-G-wallay are Baniyas (the traditional business community) and hence have a natural tendency to think about their personal benefits only.""""""   Natural tendency ? Sounds very racist.   Derogatory remarks about "baniyas" crop up most often on the Pakistani Media. It is more specific. It is the "Hindu Baniya". It used be taught that way in Pakistani school textbooks. Do not know if it still is.     Kshmendra --- On Mon, 4/27/09, Inder Salim wrote: From: Inder Salim Subject: [Reader-list] The Mango Tree To: "reader-list" Date: Monday, April 27, 2009, 10:14 PM -- THE MANGO TREE The centre of the universe is not the place where I am standing, but the Mango Tree in front of my balcony. But because of different seasons its centre of importance shifts,  particularly when there are no mangoes on its branches.. Almost a decade back, when I shifted into my flat, there was no such tree over there, but indeed a structure conducive for the growth of a Mango Tree, or any other tree, was always there. This space where these small and big trees exist belongs to the entire colony, a public space,  where people relish their evening strolls, or let  their children jump a little, and also scatter biscuit and chocolate wrapper around, carelessly. The Trees are mostly non-fruity ones, so everything is cool, except this Mango Tree. Right now, the entire colony is talking about this mango tree, but the flats which are directly facing this mango tree are constantly thinking about it. I am also looking at the mango tree, but among other things, what puzzles me is the question why the tree gives birth to hundreds of mangoes when it does not want its entire crop to grow? As I notice some little green mangoes keep on falling on the earth, naturally. Why? It fascinates me. This is perhaps, what we call mysteries of the nature, so no need to interfere or worry on that account.  But still there are plenty of mangoes on the tree, and everybody is silently looking at them, who simply want to eat them.. But there is some helplessness in their looking at them. The reason for this is that the 70-G-wallay (family living in the Ground floor) happened to water this mango tree sometimes , and now they have the birth right to harvest the entire crop of this tree. True, I am witness to that, but I doubt if they  actually  had planted the tree. I believe, somebody had carelessly thrown a mango kernel into the park which has given birth to this controversial tree.  The 70-F-wallay, 70-S- wallay, and 70-T-wallay (families living in First, Second and Top floor) feel that they too have the right to eat some mangoes. These families live closer to this tree, but other families which are facing it too have the similar desire but, I guess the intensity of the desire to eat these mangoes is directly proportional to the distance of the eyes that are looking at this mango tree. The trouble is that the 70-G-wallay leave no stone unturned to ensure that the mango tree is under their control during the crop time. They don’t even let a singing bulbul, or a peaceful dove, let alone stray colony monkeys to come near this mango tree.    They use all the ways and means to keep the other away from the reach of this tree.  They must have even counted the number of mangoes on the tree which are still unripe, quite green but distinguishable from the green of its foliage. The 70-G-wallay are Baniyas (the traditional business community) and hence have a natural tendency to think about their personal benefits only. I must say, with some confidence, that such families are the predecessor families of the entire world capitalism, like monkey is known as the predecessor of the man.. A limited thought, but business is usually created to be inherited by their successors, usually sons. So, there is a tradition, to own the factory, an orchid, an oil well etc..  Right now, here in this colony, there are people who want the entire mango tree to be felled since they don’t get their share of mangoes, but there are people who are content with the idea of a tree alone. Although, the later category of people are quite in minority but they are happy that there is a place for a dove to make a nest, or twig for a squirrel  to jump from this tree to another tree. Yes, some children from outside,  say from other underprivileged families, whom I guess have never tasted a mango in their life, do come and try to steal a mango or two from this tree  by throwing a stone or a small stick.. The 70-G-Wallay quickly come out from their flat and use all kinds of popular vernacular to chase them away.. The rest of families again remain silent, who otherwise would not like these outside children to venture into the protected colony, where I too happen to own a flat. The result is that every year, the 70-G-wallay harvest the unripe crop lest it might be shared or stolen by others. The entire unripe-unripe crop is harvested, because the fear of losing the crop intensifies with the passing of each day, which is just good enough for  ordinary pickle at the best.. The real mangos never see the light of the day. I don’t about the whole world, but in India, the nature of business is such that the entire crop of Mangoes is usually plucked from the branches while it is still growing, still green. The golden fruit becomes golden only in the dark rooms of Mandi (Fruit markets) where they are dumped for couple of days, or weeks, to hit the stalls on the very day they turn golden, golden red or golden green.  Who knows if some chemicals are injected into the mangoes to give them a more golden look, or make turn them even tastier? After all we are lured by products which are masked, glossed, either on TV, cinema, or in the Malls, or in the life directly. After all, the idea of mango is usually smarter than the actual mango. But there are spaces where Mangoes are allowed to turn golden on the trees itself, and subsequently relished with their maximum sugar and vitamin levels. But, as we know that is outside the structure of business and people like 70-G-wallay don’t have a clue about that. So, has anybody ever tasted a real mango? The question is that there is just one mango tree, and thousands of eyes on its couple of hundred odd mangoes on the tree. Right now, the people like 70-G-wallay who control the production of plant don’t let the mangos grow naturally. So they too have not tasted a mango, and neither let others to taste a real ripe one. So  has anybody tasted a real mango, if there is one, and if yes, who deserves to eat that, and relish? please press to see mangoes http://pics.livejournal.com/indersalim/pic/000hz44h/ With love Inder salim http://indersalim.livejournal.com _________________________________________ reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. Critiques & Collaborations To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with subscribe in the subject header. To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/>       _________________________________________ reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. Critiques & Collaborations To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai..net with subscribe in the subject header. To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> ________________________________ Now surf faster and smarter ! Check out the new Firefox 3 - Yahoo! Edition * Click here! ________________________________ From Chandigarh to Chennai - find friends all over India. Click here. Own a website.Get an unlimited package.Pay next to nothing.*Go to http://in.business.yahoo.com/ _________________________________________ reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city.. Critiques & Collaborations To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with subscribe in the subject header. To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> ________________________________ Now surf faster and smarter ! Check out the new Firefox 3 - Yahoo! Edition * Click here! Bollywood news, movie reviews, film trailers and more! Go to http://in.movies.yahoo.com/ From kshmendra2005 at yahoo.com Thu Apr 30 20:41:23 2009 From: kshmendra2005 at yahoo.com (Kshmendra Kaul) Date: Thu, 30 Apr 2009 08:11:23 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Reader-list] Arundhati Roy's interview on BBC Urdu In-Reply-To: <11301.82961.qm@web53601.mail.re2.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <79226.40068.qm@web57205.mail.re3.yahoo.com> Dear Rahul   There are limits to intellect and consequently the heights one can achieve. There is no such limitation on idiocy of the kind exemplified by "Blowback" Arundhati Roy.   If I can find time over the next few days, I will try and prepare an English transcript of this interview.   For now, typical of her and her kind of people who advocate 'destroy' without having an answer for 'what after that', here is an excerpt from the ending of the interview after she has badmouthed Democracy  in India.   Q: What should be done? These are the only two options, either Dictatorship or Democracy. Where else can one hope for according to you?   Arundhati: I do not have any solution. I do not know what lIfe after Democracy will be, but I feel organically something .... something will happen because the fabric is tearing   Kshmendra   --- On Thu, 4/30/09, Rahul Asthana wrote: From: Rahul Asthana Subject: [Reader-list] Arundhati Roy's interview on BBC Urdu To: "Sarai Reader List" Date: Thursday, April 30, 2009, 7:28 PM Hi All, Please find the link to Arundhanti's interview,from probably under the rock where she has been living. http://www.bbc.co.uk/urdu/multimedia/2009/04/090428_arundhati_wusat_uk.shtml Thanks Rahul _________________________________________ reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. Critiques & Collaborations To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with subscribe in the subject header. To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> From 2tahamehmood at googlemail.com Thu Apr 30 21:03:04 2009 From: 2tahamehmood at googlemail.com (Taha Mehmood) Date: Thu, 30 Apr 2009 16:33:04 +0100 Subject: [Reader-list] Arundhati Roy's interview on BBC Urdu In-Reply-To: <79226.40068.qm@web57205.mail.re3.yahoo.com> References: <11301.82961.qm@web53601.mail.re2.yahoo.com> <79226.40068.qm@web57205.mail.re3.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <65be9bf40904300833u287a949eh7b04619f3387e855@mail.gmail.com> Dear Kshmendra, I am yet to understand your rage against Arundhati Roy, however, I do think that stones are thrown only at fruit-laden trees. Maybe she is one of them. Before you slide back to your only crutches of ad hominem and slander, may I say that perhaps we need atleast ten more like her. Regards Taha From 2tahamehmood at googlemail.com Thu Apr 30 21:18:50 2009 From: 2tahamehmood at googlemail.com (Taha Mehmood) Date: Thu, 30 Apr 2009 16:48:50 +0100 Subject: [Reader-list] MNIC: Parliament Questions - 8 Message-ID: <65be9bf40904300848v2676b988hf97ac12c80a2176b@mail.gmail.com> http://164.100.47.132/psearch/QResult13.aspx?qref=7110 GOVERNMENT OF INDIA MINISTRY OF LAW , JUSTICE AND COMPANY AFFAIRS LOK SABHA UNSTARRED QUESTION NO 660 ANSWERED ON 27.07.2000 IDENTITY CARDS TO VOTERS 660 . Shri RASHID ALVI (a) whether Identity Cards have been issued to every voter in the country as laid down by the Election Commission of India; (b) if not, the reasons therefor; and (c) the total expenditure incurred so far and anticipated for this work? ANSWER THE MINISTER OF STATE OF LAW, JUSTICE AND COMPANY AFFAIRS (INDEPENDENT CHARGE) (SHRI ARUN JAITLEY) (a) & (b) : The process of registration of electors and preparation of photo Identity Cards of electors are continuous and ongoing processes. It is not possible to cover all the electors under the scheme of issue of I. Cards at any given point of time. The Election Commission has informed that about 38 crores electors representing 62 per cent of the eligible electors of the country have so far been provided these cards. The scheme has not so far been extended to the State of Jammu and Kashmir. The work in this regard has also not started in Assam and Mizoram till now although the programme has been extended to these States. (c) : A sum of Rs.419,45,61,710/- has been released by the Central Government to the States/Union territories specifically for expenditure on the scheme of electors` Photo Identity Cards between 1994-95 and 1999-2000. In this connection, it may be stated that as the scheme is being implemented by the State Governments/Union territory Administrations directly and the Central Government`s role is limited to reimbursement of their share (on 50:50 basis) to them as and when the same is claimed by them, it is not possible to anticipate the likely expenditure in this regard. From pawan.durani at gmail.com Thu Apr 30 21:25:23 2009 From: pawan.durani at gmail.com (Pawan Durani) Date: Thu, 30 Apr 2009 08:55:23 -0700 Subject: [Reader-list] Arundhati Roy's interview on BBC Urdu In-Reply-To: <65be9bf40904300833u287a949eh7b04619f3387e855@mail.gmail.com> References: <11301.82961.qm@web53601.mail.re2.yahoo.com> <79226.40068.qm@web57205.mail.re3.yahoo.com> <65be9bf40904300833u287a949eh7b04619f3387e855@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <6b79f1a70904300855r72b87b1cr1ec05049c3235239@mail.gmail.com> Taha , That was humorous . Does your explanation include the stone thowing examples against Indian security forces in Kashmir ? pawan On 4/30/09, Taha Mehmood <2tahamehmood at googlemail.com> wrote: > > Dear Kshmendra, > > I am yet to understand your rage against Arundhati Roy, however, I do > think that stones are thrown only at fruit-laden trees. Maybe she is > one of them. Before you slide back to your only crutches of ad hominem > and slander, may I say that perhaps we need atleast ten more like her. > > Regards > > Taha > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > subscribe in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> From 2tahamehmood at googlemail.com Thu Apr 30 21:24:43 2009 From: 2tahamehmood at googlemail.com (Taha Mehmood) Date: Thu, 30 Apr 2009 16:54:43 +0100 Subject: [Reader-list] News Items posted on the net on Multipurpose National Identity Cards-114 Message-ID: <65be9bf40904300854s26fbf40boa9d2c2251e69318c@mail.gmail.com> http://economictimes.indiatimes.com/articleshowarchive.cms?msid=44093589 Citizens' I-card project throws a lifeline to SCL 22 Apr, 2003, 0438 hrs IST,Sudha Nagaraj, TNN NEW DELHI: Far from pushing for its disinvestment, the department of information technology (DIT) is pushing for the growth and expansion of Semiconductor Complex (SCL). DIT has recommended to the ministry of home affairs (MHA) that the PSU be given purchase preference in the proposed project to issue multipurpose national identity cards (MNIC) for citizens. When granted, it would help SCL bag up to 35% of the orders in the tender for the smart-card based MNIC at the lowest bid price. Reliable government sources said the suggestion had been very well received by the MHA. In a communication to the MHA, the DIT said that in line with other countries where such initiatives are launched under government control, SCL could handle the project and if required would even upgrade its infrastructure. At present, SCL’s lab facility is equipped for 1.2 micron wafer processing, while the world has progressed to 0.25 micron. While a 0.8 micron pilot is on, SCL had proposed a Rs 200 crore upgradation plan during the Tenth Plan to migrate to 0.6 micron technology, which would help quadruple the capacity and increase output from 20,000 wafers to 44,000 wafers per annum. Though the proposed outlay for Tenth Plan for SCL was Rs 264.71 crore, only Rs 5 crore has been approved. To complete augmentation of R&D and CAD facilities at SCL, a spillover outlay of Rs 48.27 crore was propsed for ‘03-04, but only Rs 6 crore has been allocated. Additional funds would therefore have to be sought under supplementary grants. SCL CMD M J Zarabi told ET that the MNIC project spelt a big opportunity and would entail both expansion and upgradation. “But it makes no sense to upgrade without the need. MNICs would require chips in large volumes and SCL, which already has the basic infrastructure and experience will fit the bill.” The DIT has also taken the side of SCL adding that such a preference was required for high security applications where the State may not want to involve private parties. “At least for the national identity cards and citizens applications, SCL should play an important role,” it has said. However, it is clear that the mammoth project is at a very initial stage. The MHA has to create a national register of citizens to identify the recipients of the card. After which a pilot would be done with SCL’s involvement before the countrywide programme is launched. SCL has stepped up its demand for purchase preference in any smart card initiative of government departments.